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Ep 92: Physique Enhancement, Rapid Fat Loss, Plateaus, and Processed Foods with Bill Campbell, PhD
Today we are speaking with Dr. Bill Campbell, whose work I've followed for a few years, including his monthly research review Body by Science. We are tackling five very important topics related to improving your body composition to get the physique you want, including how consuming highly processed foods impacts your goals, the effectiveness of a rapid fat loss phase, why weight plateaus occur, and how to break them, physique-training vs. nutrition, and the use of diet breaks and refeeds to optimize your physique.
Today we are speaking with Dr. Bill Campbell, whose work I've followed for a few years, including his monthly research review Body by Science. We are tackling five very important topics related to improving your body composition to get the physique you want, including how consuming highly processed foods impacts your goals, the effectiveness of a rapid fat loss phase, why weight plateaus occur, and how to break them, physique-training vs. nutrition, and the use of diet breaks and refeeds to optimize your physique.
Bill Campbell is a Professor and Director of the Performance & Physique Enhancement Laboratory at the University of South Florida. He publishes a monthly research review (Body by Science) that summarizes the latest and best research focusing on fat loss and building muscle.
Bill has published over 200 papers, 3 textbooks, and 20 book chapters related to physique enhancement, and his articles have been cited over 7,000 times.
He also is the co-creator (with Dr. Layne Norton) of the "Physique Coaching Academy" - the most comprehensive and evidence-based course and mentorship program helping weight loss and physique coaches across the world.
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Today you’ll learn all about:
[2:03] Bill's background in the field
[5:15] Balancing research and practice
[9:22] Highly processed foods and their impact on physique goals
[14:20] Eating whole foods and controlling for calories
[19:31] Rapid/aggressive fat loss
[24:46] What induces hyperphagia
[27:19] Aggressive dieting and muscle mass
[36:30] Use of diet breaks and refeeds
[43:58] Weight loss plateaus
[51:44] Training vs. nutrition for body composition goals
[53:22] The question Bill wanted Philip to ask him
[54:37] Where to learn more about Bill and his work
[56:21] Outro
Episode resources:
Bill’s Instagram: @billcampbellphd
His website: billcampbellphd.com
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Transcript
Bill Campbell PhD 00:00
Two things that help protect muscle mass or a higher protein diet and resistance exercise. So if you're dieting, do those two things try to eat higher protein. And what that meant might mean different things for different people. The second thing is yet resistance train.
Philip Pape 00:15
Welcome to the Wits & Weights podcast. I'm your host, Philip pape, and this twice a week podcast is dedicated to helping you achieve physical self mastery by getting stronger. Optimizing your nutrition and upgrading your body composition will uncover science backed strategies for movement, metabolism, muscle and mindset with a skeptical eye on the fitness industry, so you can look and feel your absolute best. Let's dive right in Wits & Weights community Welcome to another episode of the Wits & Weights Podcast. Today we are speaking with Dr. Bill Campbell, whose work I've followed for a few years, including his monthly Research Review body by science, we are tackling some very important topics today related to improving your body composition to get the physique you want, including how consuming highly processed foods and packs your goals can a rapid fat loss phase be effective, why weight plateaus occur and how to break them, which is more important for your physique training or nutrition and the use of diet breaks and refeeds to optimize your physique. Bill Campbell is a professor and director of the performance and physique enhancement Laboratory at the University of South Florida. He publishes a monthly Research Review body by science that summarizes the latest and best research focusing on fat loss and building muscle Bill has published over 200 papers, three textbooks 20 book chapters related to physique enhancement, and his articles have been cited over 7000 times. He's also the CO creator with Dr. Leigh Norton, of the physique Coaching Academy, the most comprehensive and evidence based course and mentorship program helping weight loss and physique coaches around the world. Bill, it is a joy to welcome you to the show.
Bill Campbell PhD 01:54
Yeah, thank you. That's quite an introduction.
Philip Pape 01:58
Well deserved. Yeah. And you know, what's interesting about you and your work is that, you know, you've dedicated your career to enhancing how we understand physique enhancement, which is a more niche area of you know, we talk about body composition, training, health fitness. Why is that specifically important to you, including the work you do at USF and what continues to motivate you to push those boundaries?
Bill Campbell PhD 02:21
Yeah, so when I use the word physique enhancement, that kind of implies a person that wants to take their physique to kind of a, an advanced, some might say, elite level. So knowing that I make no apologies, with the fact that I'm on the vanity side of our profession. So as an exercise scientist, I serve people that aren't necessarily doing their exercise and nutrition for health reasons. But for vanity reasons. And again, I don't make apologies to that, because nobody does this. And there are a lot of harms, health harms that can be done. So one of the things that my research does is we we emphasize how to help people optimize their physiques within a maintainable lifestyle. And that part of that statement that precludes some unhealthy practices that people have done in the past that fortunately we're getting away from my research does serve bodybuilders. In fact, bodybuilders are who I study, they're the experts of fat loss, I just dialed back what they do a notch or two to to broadcast to what people like myself, so I don't have a plan to step on stage. But I'd like to look like I could step on stage in the next few weeks or few months. And then also this, obviously, I do a lot of reading of the obese research as well, because there's a lot a lot to glean from that area. And my career actually started off studying people with obesity. And then over the last 510 years, I've gravitated towards this, the more people who are in shape, who are exercising, what do they want to do to go to the next level in a way that they can maintain? So that's what I do. That's what I'm motivated to do. And essentially, I would say, I designed research studies with my team that benefit me and my wife, like, what are do we want to improve our physiques? How do we want to improve our our function? You know, and do this where we can go out for ice cream with our kids and make sure that's part of the plan. So it's kind of a selfish endeavor. And when I look at it like that as well,
Philip Pape 04:34
I love it and you had me an ice cream man, because that's one of my most enjoyable vices, but you're in South Florida, and I told you I grew up in South Florida. So you know, it's just the thing you have. I think that's a really important distinction you made there with or not distinction, but you talked about folk focus on the entity and focus on looks, but making it maintainable. And a lot of people shy away from talking about that or kind of dance around it in terms of Talking about why it's so something so great for your health. You know, we've been talking about body composition and strength training, and emphasize a lot of these other things. And at the end of the day, everybody wants to look better as well. It's a it's probably a natural human thing built into our, our DNA. And like you said, you need to understand how to do that in a healthy way. So how do we balance those things? And specifically, how do we take all the information? So you do research? But man, you can you can find 1000s of articles online about one of these topics. And most people don't go past the abstract, let's be honest. How do you take that and actually apply to practice and walk the line between the two before we get into the topics?
Bill Campbell PhD 05:41
Yeah, and one thing that I also say is my research is focused on your physique. But there's a lot of health snuck in the back door, you can sign metaphor, right? Yeah, yeah, if you lose excess body fat, by default, you're healthier. If you're engaging in exercise, any exercise, if you're walking an extra 2000 steps per day, there are clear metabolic improvements in your health, that would that will be realized. Now again, my guess my marketing curtain is, hey, do this to build bigger muscles do this to lose more body fat. But behind all of that, I just choose not to not not to come at it from a health perspective, but it's there. And the older I get, the more I appreciate. That's true of anybody, the older you get, the more you start to move your interest from physique to health. Again, not that people ignore physique, but there is a greater appreciation of health the older you get. I don't think that answered your question. In terms of well,
Philip Pape 06:45
it was actually but I liked that, let's let's take that tangent just as a bit of pull the thread because I also work with a lot of older folks. And so older, meaning over 40, I'm over 40. And they're usually people who lift who liked to lift, but they're like, I gotta shed a little bit of extra body fat. Now, you know, it's just it's come time. And by the way, I'm doing it because I want to be healthy. And I'm worried about my blushing. But let's be honest, I also want to look at, there's always both, like I'd never seen just because just because we get older, and like you said you focus more on health than you did when you were young, when you might not have even cared a lick about it, because you got all these years ahead of you. Right, but you never lose that idea of hey, I still want to look great and feel great, because I'm a human. So
Bill Campbell PhD 07:21
yeah, and one thought that popped in when you said working with somebody that's older 40s or older, and we just insulted every 40s cluding me it's now I kind of lost my my train of thought. But even if you are you maintaining your body fat in your 40s, mid 40s. And on, you're actually winning, because the normal progression is you gain body fat in your mid 40s more in your 50s more in your 60s. So that's something that a lot of people don't appreciate, if you working just to maintain, puts you ahead if you want to lose, and this is maybe something I don't know what your history history has been with body composition, but you have to work quite a bit harder in your 40s than you did in your 20s to get the same body composition outcome. And a lot of our younger professionals have no clue they they they and again, that's not a those are who I teach, those are my students that they just haven't lived long enough. So
Philip Pape 08:32
it's easy for them, quote unquote, in relative terms, right? Yeah,
Bill Campbell PhD 08:36
absolutely. Yes, it is. Again, not in Yes, relative terms that thinks the key statement there. But it is an appreciation and then again, you factor in and do our view your clients have children. What's their work demands? I just I remember when I was younger, my career my days my life revolved around my training. Well, that that gets harder to do. Life start
Philip Pape 08:57
locations. Yeah. Yeah, it's true. Yeah, are you get injures injuries, or in my case, I had rotator cuff surgery about two weeks ago. So now I'm like, I can't lift it. I'm going to next week via the three arm the three limbs, man and try to get back into it. You know, but you're right. So why don't we Why don't we dive into some of the specific topics that I mentioned before then that cover this both from a nutrition and training perspective. And the first one is about highly processed foods. I mean, it's kind of out of the blue, but it is an important topic because a lot of people struggle with controlling their intake of highly palatable foods, whether it's fast food, junk, food, snacks, sweets, whatever you want to call them, even the ice cream we talked about before. That's my vulnerability. And one of the impacts of our food environment. It's just that people over consuming this stuff naturally, right? I mean, the studies show that people will over consume highly palatable foods, all things equal, when they're not tracking when they're not intending to do you know stay in a particular trajectory. So what are all the various ways of consuming these foods impact our physique goals energy Balanced me one of them, but I'm sure there are others.
Bill Campbell PhD 10:02
Yes, I start with research, that's epidemiological in nature, which reports consistently, the greater amount of highly Ultra processed foods you eat, the higher your BMI, Stated differently. The more processed foods you eat, the more body fat you have. So there's our base. And then we can kind of look at different research about mechanisms as to why so one thing I think you've kind of mentioned it, but if you're not active, if you're not on top of your caloric intake, those foods, and I think the best way to mention this is they're engineered to over consume. And it's, it's, it makes sense from a business standpoint, and my, I have a degree in marketing, I actually like marketing, I like reading about marketing. And that's my pleasure reading. So I appreciate the marketing side of things. And just even with just highly processed foods, it's just it's so nice. It's, it's, they're engineered that we're going to keep eating them because it does not it has very little effect on appetite. And just the time savings, like it's so easy to open up a package of something and consume it than it is to grill a chicken breast or to cook your rice or whatever you know, your own food prep is. So it's it's a very hard battle for a lot of people and a hard battle for myself at times, to not default to easier, more processed food choices. Let me just transition that to the base statement of the more you eat, the higher your BMI. There's been one study that was done, which didn't discuss or investigating mechanism. In fact, this is the only study that's ever actually shown that eating a highly processed food diet will increase body weight and body fat. And what they did was they had subjects for two weeks eat and only Ultra processed food diet. And then for another two weeks, the same subjects ate a non processed food diet. So they had them live in a in a research unit for 28 days, it might have been 30 days, under two different conditions. And essentially what happened was when they eat the ultra processed food, and by the way, the subjects were blinded to the study, like they didn't know why they were doing this, they didn't know that their food was prepared for them. So they didn't know it was a weight gain weight loss study. And the subjects while they were on the ultra food processed diet, they ate an additional about 500 calories per day leading to about a two pound weight gain over the two week period. And they actually had a little bit of weight loss when they were on the the non processed food diet. And the really intriguing thing was which at first, when I read it, it puzzled me. There were no differences in their subjective feelings of hunger in either of these two week stuck to week phases. And I'm like, but I thought that ultra processed foods made us more hungry. Like they don't say she ate you as much. And then the more I thought about it was obvious. They they were just as hungry. Or they were they got the same feelings of hunger. But they had to eat 500 more
Philip Pape 13:26
to consume or Yeah, to get it. Yeah, perfect. So it took me a few
Bill Campbell PhD 13:30
minutes. They're like, Oh, make sense. And one other thing. And this is a whole other conversation, the subjects over ate on carbs and fat. So most of the excess calories were from the carbs and the snacks, essentially. And that goes into another topic called protein leverage theory. So if you follow my work or some of my research, we do, we've published some studies about the importance of having like a higher protein diet, enhance your physique, and just to prevent excess weight gain.
Philip Pape 14:02
Yeah, and as I was mentioning, before, we recorded this that the episode coming out right before this that already came out as people are listening to this was all about protein. And I referenced some of the study you talked about, where women had just a slight increase in protein, and there was a massive difference in body fat reduction, and so on. So I think that's important. What about what about if you control for calories? So the calories are the same between two groups? What other effects would we see? For example, the thermic effect of feeding I understand is higher with whole foods. What would you know, would your expenditure change just all things equal? Or any other variables change because you're eating whole foods versus processed foods?
Bill Campbell PhD 14:41
Yeah, so I'm aware of one study where that's been shown. So you have 1000 calories of a of a whole food meal and you have 1000 calories of a ultra processed meal. You're you're going to expend more calories with the whole the non processed meal. Now that's probably I wouldn't call While a trivial because you do that meal after meal day after day that will likely have an effect over time. But there's yet not only do you not only when you eat a highly processed food diet, not only are you going to be hungrier, but your body actually less burns fewer calories to digest, absorb, transport and process those foods. So you're kind of losing on both ends of the spectrum, they're entered the energy in you're likely to consume more, and your energy expended or your energy out. Yeah, so we That's it again, there's there's, there's nothing that the science is not favorable to anything about highly Ultra processed foods if you're trying to optimize your physique or trying to manage weight gain. Now, that being said, again, my core tenant is optimize your physique within a maintainable lifestyle. Or at least for me, and how I'm raising my children, our lives aren't maintaining our lifestyle is eating ice cream sometimes. Yes. Now some people that they would say, That's horrible. How do you do that? My, my children have soda sometimes. So and I'm very sensitive daughter, so I'm very hypersensitive to eating disorders or disordered eating. So we don't really talk about you know, hey, we just know if you're gonna have a snack, you'll get a bowl. And when you finish the bowl, you're done. You got that enjoyment. So there's that aspect as well. Yes, the research isn't favorable. But if I know the research, and I'm gonna have chocolate chip cookies sometime in the next week,
Philip Pape 16:43
likewise, I'm totally with you there. And again, it's it's it's a matter of quantity. It's like, all the recent studies and observations about aspartame, you know, like make sure to have less than 15 cans of soda every single day. So you avoid the you know, deleterious effects of, of aspirin anyway. So that's what I was going to ask. And you basically answered that is like, how do we is there a place for those in our diet? And the answer is yes, if you want it to be maintainable, at least if you enjoy those foods, obviously, if you just enjoy eating 100% Whole Foods, go for it. What about when the foods are associated with emotional triggers? Binge eating things like that? Right? specific trigger foods? Do you get into those discussions in terms of helping people or clients with improving the relationship with food in that context?
Bill Campbell PhD 17:25
Yeah, so that's, um, outside of my research expertise, when, when it comes to that, like eating behaviors, behavioral psychology, I will just say practically, a lot of coaches that are in my network, they have kind of a base recommendation, which is the 8020 rule. So try to have 80% of your food choices be from Whole Foods, and 20% being the foods that might be a little bit more hyper palatable. Now, we also need to suggest here and again, I'm not talking about health, but there are also this eating a highly processed food diet, yes, it causes more hunger, yes, it causes less energy output. There are metabolic metabolic consequence, metabolic health consequences as well. So more insulin production, probably a greater risk for type two diabetes. So I'm not focused on the those those health effects of this. But that's a consideration as well, usually nutrient deficient. But again, I tend to focus on just the adipose tissue side of this, which that's that's a very health centric focus for just on eliminating or reducing excess adiposity in somebody.
Philip Pape 18:44
Yeah, speaking of nutrients and food science, you mentioned how fascinating it is with the marketing and the science. And I agree, do you remember that show? The guy from Mark summers, I think it was from Nickelodeon. Back in the day, he had this show about how factories make food, and you can find them watching. Like, like, like Twinkies or something. It's, it's incredible, right? Like the robotics behind it and how they engineer the ingredients come together. But then when you learn what those ingredients are you like, okay, now I understand. It's, you know, everything's ground down to a fine powder and then smashed together and there's like, no nutrition in it. But it tastes good. You know, for a lot of people. So yeah.
Bill Campbell PhD 19:22
I haven't seen that. But that I liked that kind of stuff.
Philip Pape 19:24
Oh, what was it? Was it called unsnap? On out an unwrapped, unwrapped is what it was, it was back in the 90s. I don't know. So okay, so then the next topic is I want to talk about aggressive fat loss. And so when we talk about whole unprocessed foods for hunger, we talked about controlling calories. One of the scenarios of course, with improving your body composition is fat loss and managing the symptoms that come along with that like hunger. So I couldn't imagine eating an all Twinkie diet during an aggressive phase. There are different reasons people want to lose fat, quote, unquote, quickly and we can define what quickly means right? We're not talking crash diets. Whether it's an event like a wedding, a vacation, maybe a physique competition, or guys like myself or lifters who I work with who just want to get in and out, you know, they're already in a somewhat lean range, but they just need to kind of cut that excess fat in 810 12 weeks and minimize muscle loss. Right? So how can how can Rapid Fat Loss be done effectively?
Bill Campbell PhD 20:24
It needs to be done. The research that I'm reading, in fact, we were about to submit my labs research on a rapid fat loss study. So the answer is based on my interpretation of the research in my own labs findings, it needs to be very short. So if you want to be aggressive, or if you're even going to take an extreme approach to fat loss, get in get out. If you want to protect lean mass, you want to protect your metabolism, the harm is greater. Apparently, the harm is greater in Lean people embracing crash dieting, quick, aggressive, rapid fat loss strategies that go on and on and on their does. Some of the most recent research that I've read was on individuals with obesity doesn't seem to be as detrimental to be very aggressive. And again, the caveat is in both situations, it needs to be short, when I say I'll define it 14 days or less of being in a very severe caloric deficit. And let's define that as approximately 40% or more of a caloric deficit. As soon as you start going longer than that, then I don't I don't, I my interpretation of the broad research, which there's not a lot of studies, you're there's only so much, there's only so much muscle that you're able to maintain in a short period of time. So as these aggressive diets gets extended, lean mass is lost. Metabolic Rate is suppressed. And then the big catch here is this this post diet phase or post diet observation called fat overshoot, where if you've taken an extreme approach to dieting for an extended period of time, your your hunger levels, it's a it's a term that describes it is called hyperphagia, which is basically an uncontrollable desire to eat. So it's binge eating when the diet is over. There's been the hypothesis that this feeling of hyperphagia uncontrollable desire to eat after your diet ended will persist until you have been able to gain back the lean tissue that you lost during your extreme diet. So one thing my lab is focused on is, let's design diets that protect muscle mass from the first day of dieting, so that we never get into this. So there's that there's that sustainable part of this. So protecting muscle mass needs to be a priority when in a fat loss diet. And that's true, whether it's a slow and methodical six month process, or a 10 day extreme diet process, what are the things we can do to protect muscle mass and prevent this post diet rebound, fat overshoot, and a feeling of just uncontrollable hunger?
Philip Pape 23:28
Okay, I want to break down at least two or three of those concepts, Bill. So the first one, you talked about the aggressiveness. In terms of the deficit, you said 40% or more just to do some quick math, let's say a male who burns 3000 calories a day, that would be a 1200 calorie deficit, which is around two and a half pounds a week. So assuming that person's say 180 to 200 pounds, that is more than the 1%. You often hear in the normal range of fat loss rate you hear quarter to 1% of your body weight per week is always the number thrown around. And this sounds like it's more like maybe 1.2 Or maybe 1.5%. Is that about right in terms of percentages?
Bill Campbell PhD 24:06
Yeah, that seems about Yeah, that seems about right. And again, I'd like to base it a little bit more on just the caloric deficit. Okay, around 40%. Yes, if that's going to be extended, I would anticipate losses of lean mass significant reductions in metabolic rate, which again, do not serve us well for long term sources.
Philip Pape 24:30
Okay, but if somebody wanted to lop off 10 pounds in two weeks, in their 200 pounds, and that seems feasible. That's interesting, right? Because I was just I just want to put boundaries on this because I've never gone there with anybody. I don't work with that kind of client. But I could definitely see that being a tool hyperphagia is that induced by the muscle loss itself and some sort of hormonal signals as a result of it or is it the fat loss and the shrinkage of your fat cells sending some signal causing that hunger? Do you know the mechanism there.
Bill Campbell PhD 25:01
Know, what you're asking is debated. So historically, it's been what they would call the lipo static theory, which was your fat, you're losing body fat, and that causes this hormonal environment. So loss of leptin increasing gralen. That's what causes this. And then we had a protein stat theory, which was popularized by a researcher called du loup. And he presented data from the Minnesota starvation trial, some very compelling data. Other research in in Army Cadets that were losing massive amounts of body weight and five week periods of time, with extended extreme caloric deficits, that research seems to point to it's not the fat loss, because the subjects that experience fat overshoot, whether they're gaining significantly more body fat than what they had before they started the diet. This, these, this hyperphagia was still occurring, even after they had gained all of their body fat back from the dieting, and it persisted until they gained back their lean tissue. So that's that's the again, I don't think I don't, this is not settled yet. But I look at the available evidence and think there's more. It sides more with the muscle. Yes. And then if you're going to ask, well, what's the mechanism with muscle and hunger? I don't have an i don't i don't know if anybody does, there might be people that have that have been investigating that. But it does seem like muscle is a little bit more important for keeping hunger under control post diet, compared to fat loss.
Philip Pape 26:46
Yeah, and even if we don't understand the mechanism, people listening, it's just I just want to hammer home the point always of how important it is to keep your lean mass, however you need to do it. Hey, this is Philip. And I hope you're enjoying this episode of Wits & Weights. If you're finding value in the content and want to stay up to date with all our latest episodes, be sure to hit the Follow button on your favorite podcast platform. By following you'll get notified whenever a new episode comes out. And you won't miss out on knowledge and strategies to level up your health and fitness. All right, let's get back to the episode. And so going back to the aggressive dieting, if someone just wanted to do what we might call a mini cut, I don't know what you would call this 14 Day highly aggressive diet. There's a term but somebody wanted to say do it over a four to eight week period just a little more typical. What do we need to do to maintain muscle mass? Is it more than 1%? Or again, you go by a calorie deficit?
Bill Campbell PhD 27:40
Well, in general, it's very simple. Two things that help protect muscle mass or a higher protein diet and resistance exercise. So if you're dieting, do those two things, try to eat higher protein. And what that meant might mean different things for different people. The second thing is yet resistance train. And then the other consideration, yes is what is the what's the caloric deficit? How much can we? How aggressive can we be, and I'll just share what we found in our study. So we had resistance trained males and females on a 37.5%, on average, 37 and a half percent caloric deficit for 14 days. Our initial analysis of our data was they lost a third of their body weight from from lean body mass, which is more than what you would ever want. But then we did what all researchers should be doing with these types of studies, we accounted for the losses of body water. So they lost considerable amounts of body water in this short period of time. And when you factor that in, they pretty much maintained all of their what I call dry, fat free mass or dry lean tissue. And that was that was also supported by their resting metabolic rate, there was a drop in the first two weeks, but that came back quickly in the following two weeks. So my art studies data is what I used to be if you listen to anything I would have said three years ago, it was avoid Rapid Fat Loss approaches all the time. There's no nuance and now my own data has made me revisit this. Find some other studies that also reported in this area and I was like, okay, there is more nuance to this. And my Newt, my nuance that my data and some other studies that I've read is You we can be aggressive. If it's a short term, aggressive approach. And some of my latest reading, just in the last two weeks, is in people with obesity. It may even be a wise decision to be aggressive initially. So that there is a a again, that this is where I'm not a behavioral psychologist, but there's this feeling of success and tangible results immediately. Whereas always going slow all the time. You don't get that So yes, I'm, if you haven't noticed, I'm literally in the midst of my diet, transition of my own thinking. And I'll have it resolved in another month or two, I just happen to eat some more studies so I can feel good.
Philip Pape 30:14
So me me answer when you have everybody will find. That's funny because yeah, I mean, I could see where all of these could apply somebody who's who's obese, I guess they're the one thing that comes to mind is if their expenditures kind of low, right? Somebody who's been sedentary has been training and don't know how much muscle mass and for whatever reason, lower expenditure, it could be, it could be very tough even on a short term, because now the calories are just ridiculously low, to where you might have to make some more extreme trade offs that are not sustainable. But again, it comes back to your premise, it needs to be somewhat maintainable in the long term. What about so if you're, if you're trying to lose like 20, or 30 pounds, but don't want it to take that long? How aggressive Can you go over two weeks, because you said minimum 40%. He said that's around the number.
Bill Campbell PhD 30:58
That's what we let's just say approximately, just to make it easy, that's what we investigated. And what we found was lean tissue was pretty much maintained with that aggression. In two weeks. Now, we also have to appreciate our subjects, we're doing the same volume of resistance training, so they didn't change their training at all. And they were getting a gram per pound, or 2.2 grams per kilogram of body weight of protein. That's a lot of protein. And, especially if you're a small person, it just happened to be a lot of our smaller females, that's almost all of their calories from protein, if they're going to get a gram per pound. And we had to work with them on that. It was not again, somebody like me, I had a lot more, a lot more wiggle room with my calories. Somebody like my wife, and it wasn't like 80% of our calories were coming from protein. But what we learned is a at least in that one study, that's what it took to maintain this dry fat free mass.
Philip Pape 32:08
Very interesting. Yeah, I hadn't looked at it in too much. And I'm glad I asked about it, I want to hear more when it comes out. Because I could, you know, I almost envision a scale or a table that that has guidelines, where based on the aggressiveness and how much you want to lose, like, here's where you could target because if you wait for some people that have more weight to lose, you're not going to want to go, you know, 80% deficit for two weeks. So of course, you're gonna have to stretch it out. But how, how long do you stretch it out? Versus how high do you go, you know, without losing the muscle mass?
Bill Campbell PhD 32:37
Yeah. And that's where that's the question, what if we had gone three weeks, so my, my guess is, if you start to go longer than two weeks, you start to lose the ability to maintain your your lean tissue. Now, let's say you do lose some lean tissue over a month, it's not gone forever, you're gonna get it back, it might take a week, it might take a month, six weeks. So it's not like you've damaged yourself for life, because you've lost some lean tissue. But at the same time, that's also the time that you were dieting plus the time after that it took to get it back. That might be two, three months of you not building any new lean tissue. So there is that consideration. And I just want to just throw out this idea of something that I that I'm again, as I'm literally, you're watching My life flashed before my eyes. And as I'm changing, I think I'm changing my mind on this. There's a reason why being very aggressive for a short period of time makes sense to me. And I'll start with asking the question, When are people most motivated to diet when they start or after they've been dieting for right at the beginning. So to me, it makes sense to leverage their motivation, and their, their ability early on, to beat hunger. Now, I always say, hunger always wins, you can beat hunger for breakfast you can be you can beat hunger for dinner, you can be under for a week, hunger will win. But can we design an aggressive approach where you have enough willpower to lose this excess body fat for the first week or two? And then you come out of it? And I'll give one other thought to this that just excites me. Let's say you put somebody on a moderate caloric deficit. So you tell me what would be a percentage decrease in calories that you would define as moderate
Philip Pape 34:34
half a percent of your body weight? So I don't do that. I don't think in terms of
Bill Campbell PhD 34:39
Well, let's let's let's use that. So they're going to lose half of percent of their body weight per week.
Philip Pape 34:45
So a pound a week for 200 pound person that's 500 calorie deficit a day. Yeah.
Bill Campbell PhD 34:52
Yeah, I'm gonna go back to the, to the caloric deficit because I think it tells us it gives a better analogy. So let's just say it took some About a 25% caloric deficit to get to this half a percent of body weight per week, which I think that's probably actually pretty close. So you start somebody on that. And they're like, Okay, well, now I'm dieting, I'm a little bit more irritable, and reducing, and I can't eat all these foods and I'm hungrier. Alright. That's that that would be a typical response. But what if you started somebody at the initial part, and you cut their calories by 40% for the first week? And now you put them in week two, you put them at 25%. Guess what their mindset is?
Philip Pape 35:35
Yeah. Let's think of the same thing, then a scaled version of this start aggressive and scale. Yeah. It's almost like you've gone up to maintenance with a refeed or something here. Yes,
Bill Campbell PhD 35:43
it's a completely different paradigm. You're like, I get all this extra food, but not really, you still, you're still bad. Now again, this is where I know there's awesome psychology behind this. I'm not a psychologist. I don't know what it is. But my logical brain says, this makes sense. And I am going to be meeting with my research team today. And we're going to be talking about future studies. And maybe we maybe this is something we look into over the next year or two.
Philip Pape 36:12
Yeah, I like that idea. And I've seen a few people do that. And I did it myself took two cuts ago, where I did it very aggressive at first and then scaled back intentionally planned it that way. And for me, it was knowing that my metabolic adaptation would be kicking in. Yeah, and I just wanted to get get as much gain loss at the beginning as I could, that this really good, really good stuff, though. So I'm going to actually switch some topics around and bring the refeed topic up to next because I think it's a natural next step of when we talk refeeds and diet breaks. You know, dieting for a long time can be psychologically taxing, just like we talked about. So if you do have that extra weight, you know, 3040 50, or even more pounds to lose, you know, they're not going to do that in two weeks. You could take this scaled approach, that's one option we talked about. But where do diet breaks and refeeds fit in? And when would you choose to use them? Because that's always the question of like, do I take a two week? Do I take a weekend refeed every week, because that's when it's aligned with my lifestyle? Do I take a longer diet break to kind of let things recover for a while psychologically and physically? Talk about that?
Bill Campbell PhD 37:16
Yeah, so I'll talk about my opinions. And then if we want to get into the research that I base my opinions on, we can. So let's all start with, I think both, again, starting where our conversation started optimizing your physique within a maintainable lifestyle. So two things. One, we know that people eat more food on the weekends, that there's research demonstrating that. So why not design a diet that fits that lifestyle that fits that data, so allow yourself to have more food on the weekends, where you're still losing body fat, and what that looks like is your diet a little harder Monday through Friday, so that you can then go back to maintenance on the weekends. And that fits your normal, what research says is a normal eating pattern. Now let's extend that diet breaks are typically defined as in weeks, like one week, two weeks or more refeeds are typically one day or two days, in this maintainable lifestyle paradigm that I am an advocate of, you have refeeds on the weekends, and you take diet breaks, when you're on vacation, when there's periods of your life or you're just you have diet fatigue, you take a week or two off, and you you're not in a perpetual caloric deficit. So I'm, I'm of the opinion, you incorporate both now let's let's I always love to take a devil's advocate approach the the counter to that is well, now you've just extended the torture of dieting, and your it's going to take you longer, but my counter to that is but this is a your lifestyle, like you're fitting this in, I don't want you to have to grind out four months of dieting for you to get to this low level of body fat. And now what chances are, you're gonna, you're gonna increase it anyway. Let's just make this a part of your lifestyle. And again, there's still discipline involved when you do a refeed it's back to maintenance calories. So you still have to have a regulatory or a governor on not overeating, and the wire breaks the the you're going back to. So there's still a level of control. But I think both and let me say this, the research overwhelmingly suggest that they're better than the answer's no, they're never worse than they other than if you're going to say it takes more time. But we do have data two studies, one from my lab and one from an Australian lab. Both studies in resistance training people reported significant improvements in desire to eat, let's just call it hunger. And my study was disinhibition which is the propensity to overeat when stressed or around hyper palatable foods to do different studies, both coming to the same conclusion that if you do if you implement diet breaks, you're less hungry. And if you're less hungry if these studies were elongated out to six months, 12 months, two years, again, hunger always wins. Anything you can do to help hunger likely gives you longer term success. So is doing a diet break then is does it give you some hack that's metabolic and metabolic advantage? No research. But it does in resistance training active fit people, it does seem to lower hunger levels? And do
Philip Pape 40:37
we know is that? Is that physiological hunger? or physical or psychological or a little both? Or doesn't matter?
Bill Campbell PhD 40:44
I don't I don't know. I will say that our data was based on a psychological questionnaire, which is called the eating inventory. It's like a 51. Question. And then the, the other group was, I think, just basic Likert scales, like How hungry are you? It was a desire to eat. And something else, but both studies can do the same thing. But yes, I'm, I know that data was was was collected, you know, a psychological later, how do you feel? But yeah, I don't have an answer as to anything past that.
Philip Pape 41:20
Yeah, no. And it's important that people listening understand this is it's primarily a lifestyle and psychology thing, even though hunger comes into it. And that does does affect your behavior. Physically, in terms of your food choices, for example, the only caveats I've ever seen is people who are very kind of self disciplined already and prefer a routine and kind of shifting things around tends to throw them off. Or people who are maybe very sensitive to over eating naturally. And like you said, it actually reduces it. But perhaps if you have this, like looking forward to the weekend mentality, for a small percentage of people, it may not be optimal. But I think for the most people, this is a great strategy. So yeah, good point.
Bill Campbell PhD 42:02
Maybe for a fitness professional working with a client, they can't turn it on and off. So they they go on a diet break or refeed on Saturday, and Sunday. And Monday and Tuesday. Turn it off, then obviously we know that that's not a good strategy for that client. Now, I will say that argument is not supported by the scientific research you won't find there has there is not a study published. And again, there's not been many studies on this topic. But there is no studies published that would suggest that people have that there's any issue with people being able to follow the diet, regular diet, repeating and having relapse problems, but what you just said, it's intuitive, and it's logical that some people will struggle with that. And then we know, don't do this, it's, it's you're doing more harm than good. And that's just being a good coach and being aware of your clients struggles.
Philip Pape 42:59
Yeah. And he talked about shifting the calories. That's the other thing I want to clarify for folks, at least the way I understand it with refeeds, you could either take a net slowdown approach to retie refeed, meaning you're going to have your normal deficit during the week and then up to maintenance. But now you've slowed your progress down or you're going to eat like you said diet harder during the week. Do we both do both of those kinds? refeeds, I guess or if one is just a slower rate of loss, I guess than the other. Right?
Bill Campbell PhD 43:26
You're saying is what? Like a diet, right? That's more than seven day like seven days?
Philip Pape 43:30
No, no, what I'm saying is, let's say you decide to have a certain deficit. And then as you're doing that deficit, you say on weekends, I'm gonna go up to maintenance, but you don't actually reduce Monday through Friday. It's just going to slow down your written costs, you know?
Bill Campbell PhD 43:43
Yeah. Well, I would say at that point, you're not dieting. Right. You're there the entire time. And then that I mean, or we could call it a diet break. And some of us are
Philip Pape 43:52
you still in a slight deficit? Because you have five versus the seven days? It depends on how much of a deficit you're in. But yeah. Okay, so now, the next thing is plateaus. And these are also quite common for folks when they start dieting. So maybe they go aggressively or not. And all of a sudden the deficit that they're in no longer works. We know, there's a lot of reasons for plateaus, right? And I'm a firm believer in tracking as much as you can. Some people don't, you know, like to track a ton of data. What's really going on with a weight loss plateau with most people from what you've seen, right? Is it the metabolic adaptation? Is it you know, body composition, because a lot of folks are new to lifting and they're getting into this? You know, what is it? Well,
Bill Campbell PhD 44:35
yeah, that's let's start there. So if you're somebody who is lifting weights, or even just aerobic ly active when you're dieting and you're taking creatine monohydrate, which you should be everybody should be taking that fit. That's, that's active should be taking creatine. You're doing everything you can to prevent the scale from moving and so appreciate that you're not going to see somebody like I'll just use my mom as an example, who doesn't when she goes on a diet, she doesn't know exercise where she's going to have more visual success of the scale moving because she's not maintaining muscle mass. She's not eating higher protein, which helps protect muscle mass, she's not taking creatine, which helps preserve muscle mass. So there's one consideration, let's give ourselves a little, a little grace, if we're doing everything we can to maintain muscle mass, which works against the scale for moving. The other the the real question you asked is, well, what's the cause of it, and it's, it's one of two things, it's either metabolic adaptation, so your body is failing to respond to the caloric deficit that it wants to did. So your body has adapted to what you were doing such that it, what you were doing is no longer having the same impact. And then the other side of this is a lack of adherence to what you used to be doing. So there's, there's really, I can pull research studies to support either the the latest one that I read was a mathematical modeling study. This was in one of my recent issues of body by science. These were researchers use mathematical modeling from real human subjects study. So they wasn't made up datas, they use the data that existed to model what the cause of a weight loss plateau is. So it's important to note that they predicted weight loss plateaus due to metabolic adaptation to occur at about two years. So if you diet for two years, your body will adapt to the point where it will stop losing body weight. But what we see in almost every single research study that's a year or longer is we see weight loss plateaus at about six months. They said they asked the question why their mathematical modeling suggested that it was not due to their metabolic, the subjects metabolic adaptation, or their metabolic rate slowing down, it was because they stopped following the diet, they were not adhering to the diet anymore. So I take both sides of the data. And I tried to come up with a system that helps coaches who work with weight loss clients. And the way that I present this to to coaches is this if your client is struggling, or is is having a self proclaimed weight loss plateau, I don't think we're doing our job if we take them at their word and just assume that they're following the plan. So I think we first have to say, are you really doing what you say you're doing? Is everything being tracked? Are you? Are you exercising more than what you're telling me or less than what you're telling me? So let's not have blind trust in our client about what they say they're doing? And they're our go? And let's say we've done those checks, and they are well, then the other explanation is, yes, there is some metabolic adaptation which is occurring. Which one is it? I mean, it depends on the client. But I think, historically, we've all been quick to say metabolic adaptation. And in fact, it that might not be the case. And clearly here, another consideration is what's the level of your client? Are they pretty elite, they have a high exercisers, well, then I'm going to save that they're probably more on the metabolic adaptation part. If you're working with a new client for a couple of months, who's new to fitness, and they're saying I can't lose weight anymore? Then I'm gonna, I'm gonna probably say maybe this is an adherence issue. And then finally, I'm going to say this, because this, everybody needs to hear this. If you're if you're defining a let me, let me phrase like this, you as a coach, need to define what a weight loss plateau is, with your client the day or the week that you start working with them. You do not want to
Philip Pape 49:02
be reactive, you help prepare them for it. Yes, it will happen, for sure.
Bill Campbell PhD 49:07
And when it does happen, how are we going to define it? Is it because you weighed less you weighed more today than you did yesterday, because some people won't use one day's weigh in. So again, you define what that is, I would, here's what I would say, which everybody is going to just forget it. One month, four weeks of dieting in a row, whether your body weight has not changed. That's what I would say. Now again, it's easy. I'm a researcher, and I don't have to put food on the table working with clients who are angry at me and my program. So it's easy for me to say a month. But still, I know, I was literally looking at some data in our lab in the last two days now. Weight loss isn't linear. People you think you're in a weight loss plateau, but if you just stayed with the same plan, a couple more days or another week or two under two weeks, you'll notice Whoa, I just lost weight in pounds. And I changed nothing. It's true. Yeah, it's true. Right? That's that goes against it goes against.
Philip Pape 50:10
I hear you I with my clients, we use like a three, three week moving average for that reason. And I'm like, don't don't look at the scale, I want you to gather the data points don't pay attention to the skin, let's look at the average. And there's one slight nuance I actually came to my mind when you mentioned not adhering to the diet for new folks at tracking, and that is they just may not be tracking accurately and being aware of it. So for example, the estimate food that they eat out, that's really hard, right? So they may be under estimating the calories, even though they're logging it, and therefore it looks like they're eating less than they are. That's the little nuance corner case.
Bill Campbell PhD 50:47
That's a great point. And let me just give you huge kudos if you have your clients agreeing to a three week rolling average, that's good, like you're earned, you've somehow you've communicated or have a relationship with your clients that is earned because that's, I know, that's I can't get my, my wife to.
Philip Pape 51:06
It's hard. But you have to have the data right next to the scaly data as it rolls on. You're like, look how the numbers are different. You know what I mean? Yeah, this one smooth, and this one goes up and down a lot. So we're gonna go with the smooth one, you know, but still, yeah,
Bill Campbell PhD 51:17
you're anybody can say look at the data, but not not everybody will, will want to do it. So anyway, I applaud you. That's awesome. Yeah,
Philip Pape 51:25
yeah. So we got it. Hey, man, I haven't learned this stuff for myself too, as I went along and figured out what works. All right. So I know, we only have a few minutes left, just a couple questions. The last topic was going to be on train versus nutrition. You know, the adage, abs are made in the kitchen, there's always a debate of is one more important than the other? You've already talked about the importance of protein and strength training and nutrition. So I think I know the answer. But what's the optimal balance between training and nutrition? If there is one?
Bill Campbell PhD 51:58
If well, I'll just go with the first thought that came into my head, if you're trying to change the shape of your body, then training is going to change your body. If you're trying to lose the most weight in the shortest amount of time, then diet will be your your best approach, which, obviously, I'm in this niche where we try to do both, we've tried to get fat down to lower than average levels, and we try to maximize muscle mass as close to our genetic potential as possible. So that's a very fun niche to be in. So yeah, I think it really depends on and there's also an argument here to be, you know, to have phases. So define your phase, if you want to lose fat, embrace that. We can lose a little bit of length, we don't want to, but we're going to be okay with losing some length issue, if that's our goal. And if you're in I want to build muscle, well, then don't sabotage that by dieting. Every you know, every other week, when you're when you say your goal is to build lean tissue. So there's a, I always say define your goal and then pursue that goal and don't sabotage it with with Nuance from from the other side.
Philip Pape 53:07
Yeah, there you go. There you go. It's also the reason I know I personally prefer the term fat loss to weight loss to make that distinction. The what what do you mean? Oh, let's let's break down the difference. You've got to hold on your tissue to lose the fat or else you're gonna lose both. Yeah, yeah. All right. So this is I like to ask this question of all guests below. And that is one question. Did you wish I had asked and what is your answer?
Bill Campbell PhD 53:30
Cool. All right. Give me a minute.
Bill Campbell PhD 53:36
Oh, I got it. What are you currently working on in your lab? So what we're currently working on and I have to give credit to my research coordinator, Corey Lafond THON, he's coordinating this entire study for us. We're comparing what's better for fat loss resistance training, or aerobic exercise or cardio. And we're doing that by we're compiling every study we can in the English language that meets our criteria that had an aerobic group within one study, and in the same study of resistance training group and then a concurrent group. So we're only looking at the studies that we're designed to best answer that question. So hopefully, by next year, we're going to have an answer if you're trying to lose body fat, is it better to do cardio only or resistance training only Of course, we know what happens if you combine them you get the best fat loss outcomes. So that's
Philip Pape 54:29
all right. Looking forward to that and I'll keep now keep subscribing the body by science encourage anyone listening to do the same if you want to learn same kind of insights. Where can listeners learn more about you go
Bill Campbell PhD 54:39
to places. My Instagram is Bill Campbell PhD. And thank you for being a subscriber to body by science. It is my I just I love it. This month's issues about the semaglutide the anti obesity drug it's a it's an really good primer and some thing that I haven't mentioned yet, but I'm going to be going live with all of my subscribers to talk about the threats to fitness professionals who work with weight loss clients. And we're also going to talk about opportunities that this drug can give us in this space. So, not mentioned that anywhere yet. But I plan to go live, probably three times to make sure that I can try to capture all of my subscribers that want to want to attend that. So I'm going to give a little bit of a lecture on that. And again, the real meat of that will be let's, let's not be fearful of this and be powerless. Let's use this to help us serve more people make more money as fitness professionals and I'm very, I'm very excited about that. And I have not done that before with my subscribers.
Philip Pape 55:50
Okay, so your IG and body by science? Oh,
Bill Campbell PhD 55:53
yeah. Instagram, Bill Campbell, PhD, and then my website, if you want to get body by science, it's Bill Campbell phd.com. And I'll just say you won't regret it. It is. I bring in experts, people like you to apply the research in their own coaching client relationships. So I review the study's. I have experts come in and say here's how I would apply this. And then again, I'm going to add on the some live sessions as well.
Philip Pape 56:20
Yeah, that's my favorite part of it actually, is after you wrap up the article, you have a couple of experts that provide their insights based on practice. So really good stuff bill. Great talking with you. It was it was a true joy. I'll put all the links in the show notes so listeners can find you and thanks again for coming on.
Bill Campbell PhD 56:36
Yeah, thank you for having me.
Philip Pape 56:40
Thank you for tuning in to another episode of Wits & Weights. If you found value in today's episode, and know someone else who's looking to level up there Wits & Weights, please take a moment to share this episode with them. And make sure to hit the Follow button in your podcast platform right now to catch the next episode. Until then, stay strong.
Ep 91: Protein Misconceptions and Strategies for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth, and Optimal Health
Today for episode 91, titled “Protein Misconceptions and Strategies for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth, and Optimal Health,” we are discussing the wide-ranging benefits of protein, its pivotal role in enhancing satiety, preserving lean mass, boosting metabolism, supporting muscle recovery, and improving body composition, especially as you age. We’ll uncover surprising facts about protein about the ‘Anabolic Window,’ its role in sleep-induced muscle growth, how much protein you can actually use, and how protein needs change with age.
Today for episode 91, titled “Protein Misconceptions and Strategies for Fat Loss, Muscle Growth, and Optimal Health,” we are discussing the wide-ranging benefits of protein, its pivotal role in enhancing satiety, preserving lean mass, boosting metabolism, supporting muscle recovery, and improving body composition, especially as you age. We’ll uncover surprising facts about protein about the ‘Anabolic Window,’ its role in sleep-induced muscle growth, how much protein you can actually use, and how protein needs change with age.
My goal is to share the latest evidence-based information about protein and dispel some of the misconceptions hanging around for a while so you have more clarity regarding this essential macronutrient.
I’ll leave you with specific strategies to meet your protein needs, optimal protein distribution throughout the day, the use of supplements, and how to apply these strategies for a flexible approach during any fat loss or muscle-building phase.
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Book a FREE 30-minute call with Philip here.
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Today you’ll learn all about:
[2:13] The effects of a slight increase in protein on body composition
[5:33] Wide-ranging benefits of protein
[10:21] The anabolic window
[12:03] Consuming protein before bed for sleep-induced muscle growth
[13:20] How much protein you can actually use
[16:35] Tony shares what he likes about Philip and the Wits & Weights community
[17:20] Food quality and satiety
[19:05] Strategies to meet your protein needs
[23:03] Optimal protein distribution throughout the day
[24:48] Protein sources and the use of supplements
[26:30] Fad diets that suggest very high or low protein
[28:15] Flexible approach during any fat loss or muscle-building phase
[32:51] Outro
Episode resources:
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Transcript
Philip Pape 00:00
We become less efficient at absorbing and using protein, right what's called muscle protein synthesis. The effectiveness of it declines with age. And so you actually need more protein with age, not less. So, the older you get, the more protein you need, the more protein you should have. Welcome to the Wits & Weights podcast. I'm your host, Philip pape, and this twice a week podcast is dedicated to helping you achieve physical self mastery by getting stronger. Optimizing your nutrition and upgrading your body composition will uncover science backed strategies for movement, metabolism, muscle and mindset with a skeptical eye on the fitness industry, so you can look and feel your absolute best. Let's dive right in. Wits & Weights community Welcome to another solo episode of the Wits & Weights podcast. I hope you enjoyed our last episode number 90, which was a q&a where I answered 11 questions related to calorie tracking daily weigh ins, building muscle over 40 and EA supplementation among many other nutrition related topics. Today for Episode 91, titled protein misconceptions and strategies for fat loss, muscle growth and optimal health. We are discussing the wide ranging benefits of protein. Its pivotal role in enhancing satiety, preserving lean mass, boosting metabolism, supporting muscle recovery and improving body composition. Especially as you age, we'll uncover surprising facts about the so called anabolic window. Proteins role in sleep induced muscle growth, pre bed protein, how much protein you can actually use, and how protein needs change with age. My goal in this episode is to share the latest evidence based information we have about protein, and dispel some of the misconceptions that have been hanging around for a while so you have more clarity when it comes to this essential macronutrient. I'll then wrap up with specific strategies to meet your protein needs, optimal protein distribution throughout the day, the use of supplements and how to apply these strategies for a flexible approach during any fat loss or muscle building phase. Let's get into today's topic. First, I want to start off by highlighting two recent studies. And I looked at these in the Dr. Bill Campbell's research review. And by the way, he is going to be on our next episode, so make sure to follow and check that out. One of the studies is from 2021, ones from 2022. And they highlight how powerful just a slight increase in protein can be for body composition. Independent of calories of training of any other factor means really somewhat surprising when you look at the results. The first study, the more recent one from 2022 is called effects of whey protein or its hydrolysate supplements, combined with an energy restricted diet on weight loss and older women. So what they wanted to do is evaluate the effects of whey protein or other way supplements combined with a diet in these older women who have who are overweight or add an obese weight. And it was a randomized controlled trial with three groups, the control group was on an energy restricted diet. And then the other two groups had two types of protein, the whey protein, 20 grams of whey protein, or 20 grams of whey protein hydrolysate for eight weeks. And the results were that both of the supplemented groups with the extra 20 grams of protein had higher reductions in body weight, BMI and body fat, then the control group, which is crazy, because they actually had slightly more calories to think about it because all the change was adding 20 grams of protein. And then the the whey protein hydrolysate group had a slightly larger increase in lean body mass, and a few other factors, I think resting energy expenditure and some metabolism factors. So the conclusion here is that whey protein or similar combined with a calorie deficit, a diet can benefit anybody in this in this case, it was older women, but really anybody during weight loss. And so it's very powerful because these women were not training, they didn't change anything else, and they actually lost more body fat, even with slightly more calories. Crazy. Okay. Now Similar results were previously found in a study from 2021. And the title of that study is the effect of 12 weeks of you energetic high protein diet in regulating appetite and body composition of women with normal weight obesity. And in this case, the is was also a randomized control trial. This had two groups, a high protein diet where 30% of calories came from protein, and a control diet was half of that 15% of calories from protein for 12 weeks, and both provided the same amount of energy that participants normally ate The results were that the high protein diet led to greater reductions in body fat percentage fat mass and visceral fat than the control diet. It also not surprisingly, increased satiety, reduced hunger, and the desire to eat compared with the crowd control diet. So the conclusion there is a high protein diet is effective for improving body composition again, and appetite regulation. Even in women with normal weight, obesity is the term they use. So what I want to do is jump into talking about all the other benefits of protein just too, this is going to be kind of an epic episode that covers everything protein related. So the first benefit is something we just mentioned. And that is related to satiety. And I'm starting off with this one, because I think we focus a lot on muscle mass, but it's very important understand that protein helps you feel full, which can then reduce your caloric intake and support your fat loss or weight loss efforts. Even if you're not tracking just having more protein, as we just discovered with those two studies. Part of that is because protein takes longer to digest as a higher thermic effect of feeding than carbohydrates or fat. And that just helps you feel fuller for longer, especially if you're getting it from Whole Foods, slower digesting foods, and so on. So that's one important benefit. The next and better benefit is that it preserves lean mass, we know that Protein is essential for muscle recovery, or muscle growth, but it also preserves lean mass during calorie restriction, which then what does that do? Well, it promotes greater loss of fat. This is so so important. In my recent episode about body fat overshooting, I talked about this, that when you are not strength training, and you don't have enough protein, you're going to lose some muscle in the process. But we've actually seen that even if you're not training, having a lot of protein is going to blend that effect as well. So that's how important it is, your body's going to break down muscle tissue for energy if you don't consume enough protein period, independent of strength training. And then of course, training is another variable. Another benefit of protein is that it could actually slightly increase your energy expenditure, your metabolic rate allow you to burn a few more calories. And that's because of the higher thermic effect of feeding. Now, maybe this has been overblown, a little bit, it's not a huge amount. But if you look at the numbers, protein has a thermic effect of around 20 to 30%. In carbs and fat, it's around five to 15%. So in relative terms, it makes a difference. And also the more whole foods you eat versus processed foods, you're going to have a higher thermic effect. That's another really cool side effect of eating whole foods beyond the natural fact that you're getting, you know, higher satiety and fiber and nutrients and all those other things. All right, the next big one, which we all know and love is muscle recovery and growth. And I say recovery first, because it's important to know that we build our muscles while we're sleeping, right? We build them between workout sessions when we are recovering. And so after those, those training bouts, where your muscles have broken down, you need that protein to help repair them and rebuild them, and then make them stronger and larger, all part of the beautiful process of getting big and strong. Another benefit of protein is it, it can help in reducing abdominal fat I, I alluded to the fact that that second study or the older study showed a reduction in visceral fat, we you see this in all sorts of habits, like when you get more sleep, we noticed that fat tends not to accumulate as much around the abdomen where it's more dangerous that visceral fat. And evidence shows that high protein diets also may assist in reducing abdominal fat doesn't mean it's going to necessarily reduce fat by more than than other diets, although I think it actually does as well. But it also reduces where you store the fat in terms of your, you know, around the organs. And that kind of fat is linked to an increased risk of heart disease, stroke type two diabetes, all sorts of things.
Philip Pape 09:06
Protein is extremely important for physical performance and blunting the effect of age related muscle loss as we get older. So in addition to preserving lean master in a caloric deficit, it's also simply critical as we get older, we become less efficient at absorbing and using protein, right, what's called muscle protein synthesis, the effectiveness of it declines with age and so you actually need more protein with age, not less. So the older you get, the more protein you need, the more protein you should have. And then, of course strength. I mean, we talked about coupling protein with resistance training, the you know, repairing rebuilding of those muscles. I think I'm being redundant. So maybe because I just love that aspect of protein so much. So those are the benefits of protein. Now I want to talk about a few other things about protein that may or may not be surprising to you. So there's not going to be anything shocking here. Other than the fact that if you've accepted certain elements of bro science all these years and by the way, some bro science is spot on. And they knew things way before we did and we before the Science showed it, I'm referring to the bro science, it just continues to hold its grasp to this day and it's just not true. So the first one is the anabolic window. I think I talked about this with Alan Aragon when he was on the show, and I've talked about it with a few others. The anabolic window is the period of time after a workout when your body is most receptive to muscle growth. And it was once thought that you had to consume protein immediately after workout right or else you just lose that opportunity. Recent research shows that as long as you get protein throughout the day, actually, as long as you get enough protein for the day, the timing may not even be that critical. Just because of how long this window really is. I generally say you know, to play it safe, consume your proteins around workout, consume your protein around workouts, right, I like to say two hours before two hours after. But it's as long as you get your total protein for the day, generally, you're fine no matter what. And don't worry about the next time someone talks about the anabolic window. The other misconceive Another misconception is protein before bed. So yes, consuming protein before you go to sleep will stimulate muscle protein synthesis during sleep. But it's no more than any other time of the day. So just because you spread out your protein in one happens to be before this long stretch of sleep slash fasting. It isn't any more effective than having done that earlier in the day. Right. So the counter to that is if eating late causes you to have trouble sleeping or have trouble with digestion, or it just doesn't make sense for your calorie distribution or your lifestyle. You don't force it right. On the other hand, reserving some calories for a late night snack before bed. But early enough before bed, where it doesn't bother your sleep can be a great strategy, especially during fat loss to make sure you have room for some an extra extra burst of protein, right at the end of the day an extra like 20 grams that you might need. And also to take away some of the hunger you might be feeling. But But that has nothing to do with protein synthesis. So just wanted to mention that if you want to eat before bed, casein is always thrown out as a good option because it digests slower, but it really doesn't matter, you're going to stimulate protein synthesis regardless. Okay, the next thing is the idea that your body can only, quote unquote, absorb or use so much protein in a single meal. Now, it is true that if you try to eat a lot of protein at once, you're not going to get the maximum muscle protein synthesis synthesis spread throughout the day, just because you don't have enough moments at which you are consuming that protein. And that's more important than the amount at that one time. But the most important thing at all is total grams of protein for the day. And so whether you have a lot of protein at once or not, the excess protein is still going to be used for other bodily functions, it's still energy, it doesn't disappear. You don't pee it out, right? It supports your immune function hormones, but it repairs other tissues. So you've got to do what works for you. Now, if you're trying to consume 200 grams of protein, you probably don't want to have it all in one meal because men that that that would be tough on your stomach, I think for most people, and almost be hard to, like fit the food down. So there's logistical elements to this that we all have to consider. And don't worry, however, if you can only have two or three meals and you have to just eat more protein that that day in those meals, it's okay if you have 70 grams, 80 grams, but we do have a sweet spot of around 2530 35 grams of protein per meal snack. So if you're trying to quote unquote, optimize, definitely try to do that. Okay, so now protein quality, right? Not all proteins contain all nine essential amino acids in significant amounts of essential amino acids are the ones that the body can't produce, right, and you have to obtain food from food. animal proteins typically have all the essential amino acids, all nine. Many plant proteins are incomplete. But if you're eating a variety of plants, mixing and matching, and of course if you aren't omnivore anyway, you're fine. If you're vegan or vegetarian, your options are more limited, you have to get slightly more creative. But just be aware of protein quality. We don't want to be slamming protein shakes or protein bars all the time. It's not just about the amino acids, it's also about the amounts of those, the digestion, the availability, the the other elements of the nutrition and what we eat, things like that. Okay, I already mentioned before that the protein needs of older adults increases due to decreased protein efficiency and the increased risk of muscle loss, you just become less efficient. So we do have to consume more as we get older. And I wanted to just reiterate that in case people thought it was somehow the opposite that Oh, older people don't need as much protein. No, you need more. The other another myth related to one thing that I just mentioned earlier was the excess protein. You know, how does excess protein get used? Well, like any excess, like any excess energy, it's going to get converted into glucose or fat, which gets stored in the body. But it comes down to energy balance, it really does, it comes down to energy balance. So if you want to have 250 grams of protein, but have fewer fats, and carbs, and the calories are the same. From a weight perspective and the fat loss perspective, it's going to be similar. Now, if you if your protein plummets down to like 30, or 40, or 50 grams of protein, that's where we get into the territory, where you actually start to significantly lose the benefits of protein. And then it really isn't just about energy balance. It is but it isn't meaning having protein that is too low is going to lead to your a different difference in how your body uses and stores that energy such that you may be hungrier right. And you may actually your body mass changes in accordance with calories, but the composition of your body mass will be worse off meaning your body will sacrifice more muscle. And that is not a good that is not what we want, even though the weight on the scale is going to be the same. We don't want that.
16:35
My name is Tony Romo strength lifter in my 40s Thank you to Phil in his Wits, & Weights community for helping me learn more about nutrition and how to implement better ideas into my strength training. Phil has a very, very good understanding of macros, and chemical compounds and hormones and all that and he's continuously learning. That's what I like about Phil, he's got a great sense of humor. He's very relaxed, very easy to talk to. One of the greatest things about Phil, in my view is that he practices what he preaches. He also works out with barbells, he trains heavy, you noticed that he has made but he trains heavy. So if you talk with him about getting in better shape, eating better, he's probably going to give you some good advice. And I would strongly recommend you talk with him. And he'll help you out. Thanks.
Philip Pape 17:20
Let's see, we talked about the thermic effect of feeding. So I don't want to reiterate that. We also talked about satiety. And I think this is really important that not only satiety but also food quality. So when you're in fat loss, your protein should be pretty high relative to your overall calories, much more than when you're gaining. And this is a good thing because it leads to you selecting foods that are generally whole food sources. Because where do we get protein from primarily meat, seafood, eggs, dairy, and plant sources, they're very few processed foods that have a decent amount of protein. If you need a lot of protein. There's some write obviously, whey protein and supplements. I don't quite count those as processed because they're very limited. Limited processing and filtering from a whole food source. But you know, that's arguable. But just consider that. From a from a weight management perspective, even if you're not tracking protein can be very important. And then the last thing is, protein is is really amazing in terms of its impact on your overall health. Right besides muscle. It repairs other tissues, as we said before, but it also helps to create enzymes helps transport nutrients, right helps in the production of hormones, neurotransmitters, other important substances, so it's very important for oral health. Okay, so I kind of covered the bases, I think with protein benefits and some of the surprising things about protein. What do you do with this information? What do you do with this information? All right, so I'm going to try to just summarize the main points one by one to hit the basics, but also to optimize. So first, let's just talk about total protein needs. And I know I've talked about this in a lot of other shows, maybe you're new to the show, maybe you just want a refresher. So this episode is meant to be all inclusive. You want to determine your protein needs based on primarily your target body weight, but it's also based on your activity, your goals, things like that, we are going to assume you want to improve your body composition, which means you are strength training, and you either are trying to gain muscle or lose fat. So I'm gonna give you a nice wide range here of 0.7 to 1.2 grams of protein per pound of target bodyweight sets a very large range. I would say one is a good rule of thumb, one gram per pound, and that could apply both to gaining and losing phases. Generally you need even more protein while you're losing, which is interesting, because it's harder to get more protein while you're while you're losing or cutting, you know, while you're cutting weight. But it helps us to tidy as I mentioned before, and it also helps with muscle maintenance. So if you can get that up in that one 1.1 1.2 range, while you're cutting, I would strongly encourage it, if you're, if you're living on very tight calories, like down in the, you know, 1615 1200 calorie range, you're gonna have to give up some of that protein just to get enough fat and carbs. Right, we understand that. So when I say target bodyweight, I mean, where are you trying to get to, so your ideal body weight, so to speak. So if you're 250, you're trying to get to 200 200 your target, if you're 150, and you're trying to gain to 181 80 is your target. So that kind of scales it toward the direction you want to go. Now, if you're significantly overweight, if you're up in the 300 range or higher, I would, I would, again, use your target bodyweight, even if it's significantly away from your current weight. So like if you weighed 350. And you ultimately, you know, maybe a year and a half, two years from now, I want to be down at 200. Go with the 200 for the protein, it looks so keep you in the ballpark. So that's total protein. And that is honestly the most important thing. And if you stop right there, and just work to get to that by tracking your food, and starting to make adjustments just on your own, literally just playing with it and having fun and figuring out how to do this. And you get there. That is like 90% of the game. But then your question is, well, how do I do all that? Because that's where I struggle. I just asked this question recently in our Facebook group, you know, or I think it was on my personal feed. Like what, what's the biggest struggle with protein and most people said, it's like, getting the right sources of protein and consuming enough. So they know they need to consume enough but getting the sources is hard. So let's talk about that. We definitely want to consume efficient sources. So these will be quote unquote, high quality protein sources, usually ones that provide all all nine essential amino acids, right? That would be animal based foods like meat, poultry, fish, eggs, dairy, but also plant based foods when they're mixed. No, when they're combined together. Everything from soy, yes, I'm gonna throw it out there soy, believe it or not quinoa, buckwheat, hemp seeds, all the grains that are in there that are high in protein, legumes. And then of course, you can combine these to get the essential amino acids. If you are an omnivore just include a lot of these things on a regular basis. And you're good. All right. You can get creative, right, you can add beans or lentils, to soups to stews, you can add tofu or tempeh as a meat substitute in a stir fry, if you don't eat meat, all these little things, you can get creative. Okay. So that's that's the second thing is, you know what sources of food and it's basically anything that's high quality, because what you don't want to be doing is eating a bunch of peanut butter to get your protein, because that's mostly fat, right. And I'm actually going to cover a list of foods in a moment here. So stay tuned for that. The next thing is we want to start optimizing to the next level, it's distributing your protein evenly throughout the day. Okay, now, again, if you just strive to get total protein, and you're not there yet, focus on that and forget the rest, do your best and forget the rest, okay, and then work on the distribution of protein. So what we want to do there is distributed evenly throughout the day. And the idea here is to optimize muscle protein synthesis, present muscle prevent muscle breakdown, they go hand in hand, try to aim for at least 20 grams of protein per meal or snack with a minimum of three meals or snacks per day. For most people, this is going to look like four or five, or one or two of those snacks are going to be purely protein or a protein shake. So we're talking, you know, hard boiled eggs could work, but they have some fat, Greek yogurt and cottage cheese are two of my favorites. Nuts and seeds could work. But again, they have fat, jerky, you know, anything that has whey protein, or anything, it has a lot of protein in it, even protein bars occasionally, if you have to rely on those, okay, I'm not I'm not hard and fast on this. You can adjust your protein based on your training schedule, so that on your training days you consume the protein before and after your workout rather than or more of it before and after your workout rather than necessarily, quote unquote, evenly throughout the day. So your meal plan would look like you know a bunch of protein before and after. And that might be up to half your protein for the day. And then two or three more meals or snacks with protein. And if you have enough protein at like four of your meals and you have a fifth meal, well that fifth meal made doesn't have to have protein, right? You could add it could be a carb based meal or whatever, as long as you're trying to stick within your calories. Okay, so then when we talk about this, most people say well, I can't get all that protein from whole food sources. Now I would say that's, that's a that's a subjective thing, of course, but it's hard for a lot of people. Definitely hard for a lot of people, partly because of actually feeling too full from all the protein. And partly from the logistics of just having to make all this meat or dairy or whatever. Or maybe you just get tired of eating the same thing. So yes, it is okay to supplement your diet with whey protein. If you have trouble meeting your needs and weight, I would just go with way, just the purest way you can find, you can get pure whey protein or you can get them flavored from a company like first form, use a link in my show notes. They're super high quality, minimally processed. There's other companies like optimal nutrition, whatever works for you and that you're comfortable with, go for whey. Casein Protein could work as well just digest lower egg, protein, beef, protein. And then if you're vegan, there's like the vegan powder from first form is based on pea and rice, you can get various blends of vegan protein powders. The reason we all like whey is it is a fast digesting protein, it can increase your blood amino acid levels very quickly to stimulate muscle protein synthesis. And it has all the amino acids in a very pure, efficient way for the calories you consume. So I like I personally often have whey protein before and after my workout, in addition to my whole foods, just because I need like 180 to 200 grams of protein. So that gets me started for the day. But you can also add protein powder to your smoothies to your yogurt to your oatmeal, all sorts of creative recipes out there to add protein power powder to your diet. The next thing is I want you to avoid falling for any fad diets that suggest a very high or very low protein intake, and eliminates other important sources of nutrition. It just just just as a blanket rule of thumb is don't have don't follow a diet that has rules that cut stuff out. Okay? Even if you know protein, you want your protein to be high. Don't just seek out a high protein quote unquote diet that then starts to cut other things out. We want a flexible approach. We want to enjoy a variety of foods, we don't want to have strict rules and restrictions. There are so many protein sources available. You may not be aware of a lot of them. So this is your moment right now listening to his podcasts and take that action, like just go to Google or ask ask me ask somebody on a forum online. Like, you know, I like this. I
Philip Pape 27:18
don't like this, you know, I'm looking for quick, quick to go snack. But what would you recommend and you'll get so many responses. And don't feel like you have to consume specific things like if you don't eat meat or you don't eat eggs, or seafood or dairy. But I would encourage you to try if you've if you're just picky, and you didn't like them before, I would encourage you to try I would encourage you to change the way you prepare them to try them raw vs cooked to try different versions of things. Like when I hear people say I don't like fish. I'm like, well, which fish because Mahi Mahi, salmon, tuna and cod all tastes completely different. You know, Mahi Ma he tastes almost like chicken. Right? Tuna is well Tuna has its own unique tastes right? The white fish are pretty bland and kind of fishy. Salmon is a lot of people like salmon. It's got that because it's fattier. Right. So anyway, I'm going on and on about foods. But I think they're important because this is where a lot of people get stuck. Now when you're when you're in fat loss, you have to make some trade offs because of the limited calories. So this is where to get your protein you want to keep it as lean as possible for the protein sources themselves. Right. So you want to look for sources that are low primarily in fat, that's usually where the extra calories come from, such that the percentage calories from protein are as high as possible. So an example would be having top sirloin instead of ribeye or having 93% ground beef instead of 80% ground beef or having a white fish instead of salmon or having low or nonfat Greek yogurt or cottage cheese instead of the full fat variety. Having skim milk mozzarella instead of cheddar cheese, I can go on and on but you get the you get the idea. Now there are there are foods that are kind of in the middle that are really good nutritionally, and they also meet other needs that you have for your macros like your carbs. So for example, certain grains like quinoa, brown rice, or legumes like black beans are a decent amount of protein but they also have carbs and some have a little fat too. But you may need the carbs so you kind of have to balance it out. Whereas the you know, chicken breast of core chicken and turkey breasts fat free yogurt, shrimp, egg whites, whey protein are gonna be almost almost all protein. And on the other hand, I mentioned peanut butter, but really like when I ask somebody if you protein they say I like cheese I'm like cheese I don't even count as a protein. It's a fat with a little bit of protein. Same thing for like whole milk and full fat cottage cheese. They taste great but you are going to pay for the calories in terms of fat some avocado, almonds kind of fall in that category as well, like, you want to be sparing with those when you're in fat loss, but they're delicious and nice sources of fat. But they're not protein sources. Even bread, like whole wheat bread, if you are having a sandwich and you just want to have bread, and you're good with the carbs, as part of your macros, it has decent amount of protein, right? But it's not just a protein source. So those are kind of some examples. Some people ask me about like chickpeas and a mommy. I mean, any of those things from plants are generally in the middle, they have some protein, but they also come with some carbs. So you kind of have to get educated in that in that realm. Okay, I think I think that covers it. I think that's everything I wanted to cover about protein today. I thought it might take a whole hour, but I think it's less than that. So it's a lot of information. But I hope it helps you get closer to your goals and dialing in your nutrition, because protein is probably the most important to figure out in this whole the Tetris with the macros. And honestly, that's why I created this podcast so you can get that information so you can upgrade your education, and your ability to take that action right now with this information. Now, if you still have questions about how to apply any of these protein strategies to your individual situation, I would love to get to know you better, I would love to understand what drives you to improve your health to get stronger to improve your physique. And the best way to do that is getting on the phone with me, I have a link in my show notes to my calendar so you can schedule a free results breakthrough session with me. Now you should be able to find a few slots open over the next week or so. So reserve a spot as soon as you can. And we can hop on a zoom call, ask the questions about what's holding you back right now. Whether it's the education, motivation, something else, and I will give you a clear strategy on how to get from here to where you want to go. Again, just click the link in my show notes for the free call. I'll help you figure out how to dial in your protein if that's the challenge, or anything else to get results faster and easier if you've been spinning your wheels. Okay, our next episode 92 is an interview with Dr. Bill Campbell who I mentioned earlier from his research review. And we are going to be covering five very important topics related to improving your body composition to get the physique you want, including how consuming highly processed foods impacts your goals. Can a rapid fat loss phase be effective, so aggressive fat loss, why weight plateaus occur and how to break them, which is more important for your physique training or nutrition and the use of diet breaks and refeeds to optimize your physique. So go ahead and follow or subscribe to the podcast so you don't miss that episode. Subscribing also helps others find the show. As always, stay strong. And I'll talk to you next time here on the Wits & Weights podcast. Thank you for tuning in to another episode of Wits & Weights. If you found value in today's episode, and know someone else who's looking to level up their Wits & Weights, please take a moment to share this episode with them. And make sure to hit the Follow button in your podcast platform right now to catch the next episode. Until then, stay strong
Ep 90: Q&A - Calorie Tracking, Protein Shakes, Weigh-Ins, Muscle Over 40, EAAs, and More
Today, for episode 90, we are doing a Q&A to answer 11 questions on everything from calorie tracking to how often you should weigh yourself to building muscle over 40 and lots more nutrition-related questions.
Today, for episode 90, we are doing a Q&A to answer 11 questions on everything from calorie tracking to how often you should weigh yourself to building muscle over 40 and lots more nutrition-related questions.
We hope you’ll find this episode informative and helpful. Remember that there’s no such thing as a silly question, so don’t be afraid to ask!
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Book a FREE 30-minute call with Philip here.
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Today you’ll learn all about:
[1:15] Do you need to track if you're working out and eating healthy regularly and your only goal is to be healthy and lean?
[7:04] How many protein shakes do you recommend a day if you aren’t that big of a meat eater?
[10:13] How often should you weigh yourself?
[12:20] Is there a specific time to weigh yourself?
[12:54] Do certain foods affect hormones?
[19:34] Should people be concerned about sodium intake when dieting?
[21:32] Carol is grateful to Philip for helping her be consistent with nutrition and understand the importance of taking rest days
[22:19] Do thyroids play a part in these types of processes?
[27:16] Thoughts on building muscle over 40?
[32:53] What’s your opinion on EAA
[34:50] What’s a good resting heart rate?
[37:14] What’s the best way to add electrolytes to your water if you don’t like flavored water?
[40:16] Outro
Episode resources:
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https://witsandweights.com/free-call
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Transcript
Philip Pape 00:00
I would say if you're a beginner, you can train three days a week, full body, go all out and see how you feel. And you should be able to recover just fine. Even if you're 40 or 50, or 60. Welcome to the Wits & Weights podcast. I'm your host, Philip pape, and this twice a week podcast is dedicated to helping you achieve physical self mastery by getting stronger, optimizing your nutrition and upgrading your body composition. We'll uncover science backed strategies for movement, metabolism, muscle and mindset with a skeptical eye on the fitness industry. So you can look and feel your absolute best. Let's dive right in. Wits & Weights community Welcome to another solo episode of the Wits & Weights podcast. I hope you enjoyed our last episode 89 with Dr. Ryan Peebles where we talked about lower back pain, how to reverse it through movement, and how to recover from low back pain injuries, prevent them and improve your back health. Today for episode 90 We are doing a q&a, we're going to answer 11 questions on everything from calorie tracking to how often should you weigh yourself to building muscle over 40. And lots more nutrition related questions. So let's just get into that first question. I work out six days a week and eat healthy. But I've never tracked my calories or even know how much I weigh. Should I keep track of this if my goal is just to be healthy overall and be lean. So this is an interesting question. Because it's not just about health, it's also being lean. Now this person is working out six days a week. I don't know if that's too much too little. You know, oftentimes, I see people overdoing it with their workouts. And we oftentimes dial it back. Especially if you're a newer or intermediate lifter, we're looking at three or four days a week of lifting. And then the other day is for recovery, or some light work and definitely lots of walking. And this person is wondering if they should track to be healthy and lean. Now, although caloric balance and weight are components of health, they're not the only ones, right? We have all the other aspects of what we're trying to do here, including what you eat, to manage things like hunger and whatnot, your training routine, you know, are you lifting heavy, and what your ultimate goal is, right. But if you want to optimize your body composition, I think it's going to be important to track and weigh yourself regularly. And the reason is, they are objective measures, they are data points that will give you more information more quickly, to assess your progress to adjust your intake and optimize your results. Think of it as a simple feedback loop. If you don't have the data coming in, in terms of the feedback, you have no idea what to change going forward. Now, if you're not tracking calories, you still have some data coming in. But if you're not tracking your weight, that data is basically how you look in the mirror how you feel, and things like that. And that may be enough for you. But if you want to get lean, and you want to do it effectively and quickly. And what I always like to tell people is when you get lean, we're talking about a fat loss phase. These are no fun. They're not a walk in the park. And I'd rather you get them done as quickly and effectively as possible. Not a crash diet, but efficiently within the range that allows you to support and preserve your lean muscle. But as quickly as you can. If you track if you're not tracking your calories, you don't know how much energy you're consuming. You just don't you also don't know how much you're expending. Because you need to know how much you're eating plus how much your weight is changing over time to know how much you're expending. And this changes every day. And so how do you keep track of how much you need to eat to eat more or less next Monday, what about the following week more or less? Again, if you're just kind of going by the seat of your pants, and how you look, it's gonna take a long time to get that right. So you might under eat one week, you might overeat one week, all of these things do affect your health, they affect your performance, and they affect your body composition. It just think about performance. If you one week are under eating and you don't realize it, you may all of a sudden not be able to lift as much in the gym, that's going to affect your ability to build muscle or preserve muscle, right? So they're all intertwine, you may not get enough nutrients to sort your recovery, your hormones or immune system, it is could lead to fatigue to injury to illness, muscle loss, even some metabolic adaptation when you didn't mean to. If you're over eating, you may gain unwanted body fat, which is just going to slow down you're getting lean obviously. And of course, just gaining extra fat that you don't want is not great for things like chronic disease and inflammation and insulin resistance and all those which then makes it harder for you to achieve a lean physique. So by tracking your calories, you know that you're eating enough to fuel your performance and support your health. And you're not eating too much that you gain excess fat and then you can tweak you can adjust your calories. Okay, I need to I need to be in a certain deficit to lose fat or I need to be a certain surplus to gain muscle. Also, and here's I think the most important thing, tracking your calories especially if you've never done it will teach you so much About your eating habits, the caloric content of your food, the macro breakdown nutrients, right, the macronutrient breakdown, or the micronutrient breakdown, which all helps you feed back to make better food choices and improve your nutrition quality. That's the irony of this whole thing is, so many diets are about eating this not that are clean foods versus these foods, whole foods versus processed foods. But as soon as you start tracking, and you see what you eat, you start making those adjustments pretty quickly to serve your goals. And that actually leads to a sustainable approach to higher food quality. The other thing is weighing yourself if you don't weigh yourself regularly, you have no idea how your weight is changing over time, okay. And this also makes it difficult to evaluate progress and see if you're moving toward your goal. Pretty obvious, if you're trying to lose fat and you don't weigh yourself, you may not know that you're gaining weight, or that you're hitting a plateau. And by the time you do, you've wasted several weeks, if not months of time. And then you don't make the changes that you need to to your your diet, your training, and so on to break through the plateau. And then the opposite case for trying to gain muscle. So if you weigh yourself regularly, you can monitor the trend over time, okay, and I like to use macro factor as a food logging app and also as a weight logging app. And by taking both the food and the weight, you know how your body you know how much you're expending every day, you only calories you're burning every day, and then you know exactly what you need to eat. Okay, you can also correlate this with other things, photos, measurements, right? How you feel how you look, your biofeedback, and all of these give you the big picture. So I would weigh and track your calories, or I would track your calories and weigh yourself regularly. If you're trying to be lean and healthy. They give you valuable feedback. And they keep you accountable and motivated because they show you the results of your hard work, right? They're in cold, hard numbers. And again, they're not the only factors, right, you have stress, you have your hydration, you have things like your digestion, lifestyle, sleep, and so on. So that's my somewhat long answer that first question. Okay, get into the second question. How many protein shakes do you recommend a day, if you aren't that big of a meat eater, I have to supplement constantly. So this person isn't saying that they are vegan or vegetarian. But that would be kind of the extreme of this question. They're just saying they don't eat that much meat. So if we think about how much protein we need, the recommendation is generally, if you want to optimize, if you're worried about body composition, and building muscle is point eight to 1.2 grams per pound. So if you're 180 pounds, you need somewhere around 140 to 180, or more grams of protein. So even if we're on the lower of that around 140. And you have, let's say, three meals and one or two snacks, each of those meals is going to be around 40 grams of protein and the snacks are each going to be around 20 or 30. So I would say it's almost inevitable that at least one of those snacks needs to be a protein shake. So it's not only you're asking me, how many do you recommend a day, at least one if not two, it's perfectly fine. I mean, whey protein, pea and rice protein, they're just minimally processed derivatives of food. That's the argument I like to make in terms of supporting them, because I'd rather you have them rather than not get enough protein. And you can get very high quality ingredients that are minimally processed with very few additives. From good companies, for example, first form, which you can use the link in my show notes for first form, they have a vegan shake, it's I think it's called Vegan. It's pea and rice blend. And then of course, they have a bunch of whey shakes that are perfectly fine. They have a faster and slower digesting shakes.
Philip Pape 08:40
We always want to balance this with real food. So if you're not a big meat eater, first, I would say what kind of meat do you eat? And can you just scale that up and eat more of it or varieties of that and cook it in different ways? Second thing? Are you not a big meat eater, because you're kind of picky or out of habit? Like would you be willing to eat other forms of meat just to try them out, or mix them in with the meat that you like, or mix them into a chili or a casserole or something like that? If you're looking for the biggest bang for your buck, it's going to be seafood. So we have things like shrimp and white fish, which are basically pure protein. So maybe you don't need a lot of beef. But would you would you eat like shrimp cocktail, right? Just frozen shrimp, thaw them out, eat them as a snack, ton of protein, right? There's also dairy is a huge source of protein, cottage cheese, Greek yogurt, legumes, and then all the plant based sources of protein. So there's really you could get all your protein from food, but the less of the denser proteins you eat, and the more proteins you eat that have other things like carbs, which is the case of plant foods, the harder it's going to be to balance the calories and the protein and then you often need to supplement it with something like a whey whey casein or pea rice Blend If you're avoiding if you're like vegan and avoiding all animal products, so that'd be my recommendation. If you're going to have one or two shakes, you know, go All out and get all the grams of protein you need based on the math. So if you're shooting for 30, or 40 grams in a meal or snack, go ahead and have one and a half, two scoops of protein don't just have one scoop, go ahead and just scale it up to what you need. Okay, next question. How often should you weigh yourself? So earlier, I talked about how important it is to weigh yourself from a data gathering standpoint. Believe it or not, the evidence suggests that regular self weighing helps with weight maintenance and weight loss, and is not associated at all with any sort of disorders unless you had a propensity for that to begin with. And then it gets into that thorny territory that I'm not going to go down right now. But I will say all my clients weigh every day, I weigh every day, and plenty of other people do without any issues. And I think I've said this before, but when you weigh yourself every day, it becomes a fairly meaningless, tiny individual data point. And you start to learn that your body fluctuates significantly day to day, and that those fluctuations have nothing to do with fat, fat gain or fat loss. I was just checking in a client today. And he gained two pounds on the scale overnight. And we know that he had pasta late at night and some a lot of sodium in a sauce. And so that extra salt and those extra carbs definitely gained cause fluid retention overnight. And I said, Look, if you gained to gain two pounds of fat, you would have to consume an extra 7000 calories. Not going to happen, right. And in his case, he tracks his food and he pretty much his lock on the yo Rocksteady day to day anyway. So we know that didn't happen. So the day to day weigh ins allow you to see those fluctuations get comfortable with them, and start to be like yeah, I'm confident that that has nothing to do with my, my lean tissue, my body fat. So I'm going to click Keep collecting those. And then over a two to three week period, you start to see how that pattern shifts in one direction or another. And that's telling you how your body mass is actually changing. And again, we use macro factor because it has a trend wait based on those daily points. You don't have to weigh every day, you can do it every few days or a couple or once or twice a week. But the more the better and the more precise, which means faster adjustments, which means you get to your goal more quickly with less frustration along the way. Okay. At the end of the day, this is about consistency, and focusing on the trend. So related to this as another question, is there a specific time to weigh yourself? Very simply, yes, the most consistent way is in the morning. Preferably, if you can do it, okay for most people, at the same time each day, preferably in the morning, after you use the bathroom before you eat or drink. And just wear the same thing every day. Usually for men, it might be boxers, for women, it's whatever your undergarments, just the same thing every day. This also goes for body measurements. By the way, if you're gonna measure your waist, circumference and chest and hips and all those things, do them also around the same time you would weigh yourself. Okay, next question, do certain foods affect hormones? So I was thinking about how to answer this question. Because on one hand, I
Philip Pape 13:04
don't like to use these questions as an excuse to try to explain away why you're not gaining, gaining or losing weight while you're hitting a plateau. And you're and try to hack every little detail of your food and sort of get obsessive very much like a diet would be where you're like, well, these are good hormone foods. And these are bad hormone foods, right? We don't want to get it to that level. Because at the end of the day, the overall dietary pattern that serves your goals, high enough protein, sufficient fats and carbs for energy and recovery, the right amount of energy balance and calories for whether you need to gain or lose weight, and then a good blend of micronutrients for your health. It's really all you need. And the hormones should kind of work themselves out, so to speak. Having said that, I wanted to bring up a few specific foods that have been shown to be helpful for your hormones. And I'm doing this because I know these foods are the kinds of things people just should be eating more of. And you guessed it, for the most part, we are talking about vegetables, lean meats, and high fiber carbs. So cruciferous vegetables, broccoli, cauliflower, cabbage, brussel sprouts, evidence shows that they help your liver metabolize estrogen and balance your hormones. Now, these claims I'm making are associated with specific studies. I'm not going to link them all in the notes but I do have them in my in my personal notes. And again, I don't want you to kind of overweight these relationships say well, okay, you know, I, my doctor said I need to, you know, I have a problem in balancing my estrogen so I'm gonna eat more broccoli, and that's going to solve it. I'm not trying to make these types of connections. At the end of the day, my my message here is that eating mostly Whole Foods at 90% Whole Foods and a variety of them. And if you're picky trying to be adventurous and incorporate more foods is probably going to be our best bet overall for meeting new goals and helping you with things like your your fat, fat loss, your body composition, your health. So cruciferous vegetables, salmon and albacore tuna, we're talking high omega three fatty acids. We know omega three fatty acids are a good thing to have. It's why some people recommend supplementing with fish oil. Not all some of the jury's still out on this today. But we know that there's some linkage with reduced inflammation and improved insulin sensitivity from having these extra omega three fatty acids. Again, some of the research is overblown. The ratio of omega three to six researchers has maybe been overblown as well. But salmon and tuna are very high in protein is protein too, so you might as well enjoy them. Keep in mind salmon is a fattier fish. Tuna is a little bit leaner and other white fish are leaner as well. So depends on what you're trying to consume here. Avocados, wonderful fat, they also have fiber, they also have magnesium, and potassium. All of these things are great for your hormones, enjoy avocados, fruits and vegetables, you can't really have enough of them. We're talking antioxidants, vitamins, minerals, fiber, all of these things are, are just well known to be good for your blood sugar, your insulin, your hormones, like cortisol and other hormones. And then anything with fibers is going to be helpful. When you talk about carbohydrates, oats, quinoa, beans, lentils, right they slow down absorption a bit, which somebody will argue then when you have them as part of your meals overall, you lower the what am I trying to say the the index, the glycemic index, or at least you can help regulate blood sugar a little bit better. Again, I would say just if you're active, if your strength training and you're eating unhealthy dietary pattern, it's going to kind of work itself out. But these are little extra things to be aware of. Now, as far as foods that disrupt your hormonal balance, oh man, you can find probably one influence or per food out there. To bring this up, I'm just going to mention three things, soy pesticides and alcohol, that's I don't want to go down any other rabbit holes. Soy is a is a dietary source of phyto estrogens, which is a plant compound that can mimic estrogen in your body. And I used to think that they were just totally off limits because of a man and I don't want to all of a sudden start producing a whole bunch of estrogen. But it really does come down to dosage like many things, overdoing it on the dose dosing can lead to toxic levels of anything, right, anything. And so I think generally the evidence is that a moderate consumption of soy is perfectly fine. We see it from population studies, observational studies, cultures that consume a lot of soy, you know, some of the where you might want to watch out as the soy, soybean oil just because there's so much of it and everything. But even that we talked about seed oils and whatnot, again, may not be terrible. And if the if it's a source of replacing saturated fats with poly or unsaturated fats that could be beneficial, really depends on you and individual factors. So I just wanted to throw that out there almost to say that, like, don't freak out about soy. But you may have heard it as a potential hormone disruptor. So look into the research and make your own decision on that. Pesticides, we know that those have been an issue worldwide for many decades, and there have been all sorts of regulations such as Roundup, when it comes to oats. My family, for example, buys organic oats because there was a study that that analyzed many, many oat brands and found that the vast majority of them had rather high levels of Roundup, just visibly upper, you know, observable right there on the oat and I'm like, Hey, I don't want to take a chance, I'm just gonna buy the organic. But again, you have to make your choices on these individual things and how much of them you eat. When it talks organic versus not, you have your budget to consider you have you know, the food environment, how much of the stuff you're eating and how you're preparing it. The other thing is alcohol there there is research that certain amount of alcohol can affect your hormones, the production of metabolism, the signaling of your hormones, we know that there's nothing net positive about alcohol, from a nutritional standpoint. So so the less is generally better. But we also know it's part of life, and we enjoy it. It's part of social gatherings. I drink alcohol a few times a week, generally, I enjoy it. And there you go. That's life. So these are general guidelines. Everyone reacts differently to different foods, your hormones are influenced by so many other things, stress, sleep, exercise, genetics, whatever. And, you know, I would recommend go get tested if that's what you need. Talk to your medical professional. If you have special circumstances. This is not medical advice. And I hope that answers your question. Okay, the next question. Should people be concerned about sodium intake when dieting? So if you go back, I don't have the episode number with me but I interviewed. I interviewed Dustin Lambert. He's another coach. Great guy, and he's in our group as well. And we talked about this a little bit and he surprised me a bit because, you know, his philosophy is that there's been a counter back Last against the sodium, the high sodium crowd, meaning the recommendations generally is to keep sodium less than a certain amount per day. And I think it's 2300 milligrams per the general guidelines, because it's associated with high blood pressure in people who are sensitive to sodium especially. And there was this backlash like, Well, no, that's just because you know, people will have poor diets and processed foods, they get way too much sodium. But if you're on keto, or low carb or whole food diet, you don't get enough sodium. So you need to start assaulting everything. And his argument was, well, that we're pushing too far the other direction that you can still over consume sodium. And so I would agree that there is there has to be a balance. And at the end of the day, I would suggest tracking your sodium using your food logging app, seeing what the consumption level is, compare it to the recommendations, if it's significantly more, okay, then I still wouldn't say you're necessarily over salting. But think about your how you're eating, and whether there's something that contributes a lot to that. Sodium, that could be a simple change, and also cross reference against your blood pressure, if that's what you're doing it for. Like if your blood pressure is perfectly fine. And you've been consuming, I don't know, 4000 milligrams of salt a day for years and years and years. Is there an issue? I don't know if we're talking other things besides blood pressure, maybe. But from a blood pressure perspective, maybe you're just not as sensitive to sodium. So sodium is an essential mineral, it is a great, you know, electrolyte to prevent dehydration, but most people get enough sodium. And the question is, are you getting too much? Do the things that I suggested track it, compare it cross reference against your blood pressure.
21:34
Before my coaching session with Philip, I was really struggling with staying consistent with my nutrition, Phillip really showed me the importance of being consistent day to day, he also helped me see that it's not a bad thing to take a rest day, he really helps me get in that more positive headspace Have a rest day being something really good for me. I've been doing this for a month now. And I'm finally starting to see some progress and my numbers. And I'm really excited about that. And I just appreciate so much the help that Philip has given me. He's always willing to answer questions to offer resources that are totally free and very, very helpful. So I just want to say how much I appreciate that. Thanks, Phillip.
Philip Pape 22:19
Question, do thyroids play a part in these types of processes? And by these types? I think the person asking the question is talking about metabolic processes metabolism, especially body weight, body mass, which most people are concerned about. And of course, thyroid disorders can interfere with weight management because it is so crucial to your metabolism. And I don't want to get too much into the disorder side of things I want to talk about just the general generally what I see with most people talk let's think about what the hormone does. Its I like to call it the metabolism hormone or not just me Others call it that it's you know, how you consume your how you take the food that you consume, and transform it into energy. The thyroid hormones affect how your cells use energy, how your body burns fat, how it regulates blood sugar, how you maintain your body temperature, many, many functions, okay, all these hormones are pretty complex. And before we even get into today, pay play a part in metabolism, everything else, just metabolic adaptation. When you are dieting, when you're in a deficit, and you don't have enough calories coming in for your hormones, in general, every all of these hormones are affected in some way. And so yes, it's going to affect your metabolism down, you know, negatively in a downward direction for everybody, no matter whether you have a disorder or not. Okay, and there's not much you can do about it other than eat more food again. And the only way you can eat more food is either reduce your deficit or move a little bit more right have a higher energy flux walk more, not necessarily lots of cardio, right? high intensity cardio, but just walking more, and then that usually raises your expenditure. So you can eat more, and then that helps a little bit with the metabolic adaptation. So, what is what is the thyroid hormone come from? It comes from your thyroid gland, which is the front of your neck produces thyroxin T four and try, try idle, idle firing, I think is how you say T three, T four is mostly inactive. T three is the active form that affects your metabolism. And your your thyroid gland converts T four into T three with the help of an enzyme called D, D IODE. And A's. So here's So again, I'm not a doctor, folks, I'm not a hormone specialist, per se, I have studied these quite a bit and help clients with when they have sort of what appears to be hormone dysregulation. In some cases it actually is an end up being on replacement therapy, because I do deal with primarily clients who are I'll say in their mid 30s all the way up to their 60s and a lot of female clients as well. And you do see this through Peri menopause and post menopause. So I'm not saying you don't need supplementation that's between you and your medical professional. But the anyway, so that's that's why I know a little bit about these things. There's this sort of feedback loop system involving your hypothalamus in your brain, your pituitary gland, and multiple other hormones. So there's this cascade all of these hormones interact with each other in different ways. Now, the hypothalamus is the brain part of your brain that controls things like thyroid releasing hormone, it stimulates your pituitary gland to produce thyroid stimulating hormone, TSH, and then that is where we get the T four and T three, and on and on. Okay, so sometimes the thyroid gland can produce too much or too little. And these cause problems as well. So we talked about hyperthyroidism, when there's too much thyroid hormone, and then that speeds up your metabolism and causes like causes causes weight loss causes anxiety, tremors, palpitations and other things. Then there's hypothyroidism when your plant produces too little. And that's what a lot of people are concerned about, because it slows down your metabolism can cause weight gain, fatigue, depression, and so on. And I've definitely seen this happen where a client will just have these almost inexplicable weight loss plateaus no matter how much of a deficit we take them into, because that deficit is further exacerbating this hypothyroidism, which further slows down the metabolism. It's like you can't keep up with it. And then when they start taking some T three, synthetic T three or whatever it all of a sudden goes away. Again, you have to talk with your medical professional about this situation applies to you. I'm just explaining how important thyroid is to your metabolism. Beyond those, there are definitely other things like nodules and cancer and other things I'm not going to get into. So if you suspect you have a problem, consult with a doctor. But at the end of the day, if you don't have the basics down, like proper nutrition, strength training, let me tell you, strength training, if you're not training, and you start lifting, you might be surprised what an amazing effect this has on all of your hormones to the point where a lot of these will express themselves as hype, both thyroidism or actually just related to fueling yourself for nutrition and working on your fitness and body composition. Okay. All right, next one. These are a lot of questions. In this episode, I realize thoughts on building muscle over 40. Okay, I could do an entire episode multiple episodes about this. It comes up all the time people say well, I'm over 40. What do I do? In my opinion, building muscle over 40 is not much different from building muscle at any other age. Now I am 42. And I started properly lifting when I was almost 40. So it's not like I've been lifting since I was 20. And just saying yeah, everybody gets the same. What's the same of the principles? Progressive overload, right? Adequate volume for you, because everybody has very different volume response, men, women, different age, different size, very different. The intensity and frequency, the need for recovery, proper nutrition, and of course, individualization. So those are the principles. And if I have a 45 year old versus a 25 year old, the same principles apply. But because they are principles, the actual prescription changes for you. So the main differences I see are that older lifters have reduced recovery capacity, it's just a fact. It's just the fact it's just harder to recover. An increased injury risk, right? Hormonal changes that come with the older age, especially in women, it's, you know, exacerbated for women, slower muscle growth, or muscle protein synthesis as we get older. And keep in mind, some of this has to do with the fact that we've lost muscle mass through age, especially if we've not been training, right. So it's kind of like a multivariable situation here. So what are some of the modifications for people over 41 modification is you may have to have a slightly lower frequency for certain muscle groups or certain movements. You may, right, you may not. In fact, I've been in a situation where if I increase the frequency but have shorter sessions, I'm actually able to recover better, and get more stimulus that way. So you never know, this is where I'm saying like, just because you're over 40 doesn't mean it's the end of the game. And if anything, it's never too late to start. If you're 65 and you haven't started training, it's not too late to start. If you're at it's not too late to start, it's only going to be beneficial for you. Another modification would be volume, right? And by volume, I mean sets per week. So trying to play with the number of sets, right? If four sets is just hammering you into the ground, but three sets allows you to recover sleep feel great the next workout, then that might be your sweet spot. Okay, you just don't want to over train and get over fatigued. But don't use that as an excuse not to train hard enough. I would say if you're a beginner, you can train three days a week, full body go all out and see how you feel and you should be able to recover just fine, even if you're 40 or 50 or 60
Philip Pape 30:01
The other thing is, you know, at that at this age, life tends to get in the way, so not in the way. But I mean, you have this ideal plan to like live four days a week, and you're gonna go nonstop, you're gonna build X amount of pounds of muscle or nine months, well, what's gonna happen, you might get injured, you know, you might have family things that come up stuff at work, you know, death in the family, you might have to go on a trip, business trip, you might have your vacations, on and on and on. So many things get in the way. And these are essentially forced D loads to the point where you may not even need to ever plan in a D load, you just make them line up with these parts of your life. So acknowledging that and coming up with and following a program that gives you that flexibility is a good approach, because then you won't feel frustrated that you all of a sudden took a bunch of steps back, right? Yeah, it took a week off. Okay, now get back on and continue. Similar to this is using programming that allows for autoregulation. Now this is a more advanced concept that I really wouldn't worry about until you get about six to nine months in, meaning your first six to nine months, I would focus on just increasing the weight on your bar, your dumbbells or whatever, just getting stronger, and using the same sets and reps and just getting stronger. But then as you get more advanced, you get a feel for what pushing hard is and you can use rep based programming, or maximum based or percentage based programming, where what you squatted last, you know, two weeks ago, it may be a different maximum this week, but still feel just as hard. And it allows for you to kind of undulate with your personal recovery ability and your volume. The other thing is, you know, we talk about warmup, and mobility and stuff like that, I don't think you need anything fancy. But just make sure that if it's cold, you'd take a few minutes to warm up, put some basic movement, maybe on a bike, right? And that you're always focused on your technique. Anybody at any age can get injured, and anybody at any age should be focused on their technique anyway. But just because of you haven't been training and you're older, your your connective tissue is less flexible or less limber than when you were younger, you may have gone through injuries, you may have had surgeries, and so on. I'm just trying to stress that it's perhaps even that much more important that you really dial in your form and technique as you go along. And one of the best ways to do this is to get a qualified coach. Or the second best is to be part of a group where you can do things like form checks on your form, rather than just doing it in a vacuum and assuming you're doing it right. Okay. And then the last thing, of course, always is going to be proper nutrition, proper hydration and electrolytes, sleep and stress management to support your muscle growth and your recovery. So building muscle over 40 is 100% possible, just follow the basic principles of training and nutrition and make adjustments based on your individual needs. All right, I have a few more questions here. The next one is what is your opinion on EA supplementation? So what is EA EA stands for essential amino acids. And these are the critical amino acids for muscle protein synthesis. And I would say that you can get enough of these from a well balanced healthy dietary pattern. Even though you do if you're training, you need a lot of protein. Okay. You do not I do not recommend EAA supplementation for most people, I think they're unnecessary. I think they're overpriced. I think you can get all the essential amino acids you need from eating protein. And even like whey and, and vegan protein supplementation, where you get not just the yeas, but the rest of the protein, amino acids, and everything that comes along with it, that you know the calories that are in protein. So, EA supplements they're marketed as superior to whole protein sources because they claim to have faster absorption rates and higher bioavailability. But I would say most of those are based on flawed studies that compare them to low quality protein sources or unrealistic doses of EAs as well as they'll take participants who have extremely low protein consumption to begin with and give me a raise and say, Oh look, there's a benefit, but there would have been as much or more benefit if they had just consumed whole protein. So maybe they're useful for people who have trouble eating enough protein from food like vegans and vegetarians, but even for them I'd recommend like a pea rice protein blend I talked about before. Simple Rules, right point eight to 1.2 grams of protein per pound of body weight per day, spread across three to five meals from high quality sources like meat, eggs, dairy, fish, whey, or plant sources. Stick stick to the simple stuff. I wouldn't waste my money on EAA supplements. I don't take them myself. I used to and I don't anymore. Next question. What's a good resting heart rate? Okay, so wearable devices are pretty good at calculating your resting heart rate. So what I recommend doing is tracking that number over time and seeing what happens under two different scenarios. So let me ask you to let me ask you a question answer your question. First. The normal resting heart rate for adults is between 60 and 160, and 100 beats per minute. And the lower end of that spectrum is more common for people with better cardiovascular fitness. And athletes might have an even lower one than that. So I'll give you an example I was I just had rotator cuff surgery, my resting heart rate while sitting there waiting for the surgery was 4546 beats per minute. And they said, Oh, are you an athlete? I said, Well, I really thank you very much for that. And I always I always love when people say that, because I never used to consider myself an athlete, I used to be overweight, my resting heart rate used to be closer to the mid 60s. And it wasn't until after my after I started lifting. And then walking a lot that I saw my resting heart rate come way down. It wasn't from cardio, it wasn't from running, it wasn't any of that. It was simply from getting to a reasonable weight, you know, body mass, for moving and training. And that's it. So anyway, so what I recommend doing is tracking your number because it's really about the relative change. And the first scenario I would do is track it before and after a significant change in weight, like a fat loss phase, or muscle building phase, wherever you are now, just whatever the opposite of that is, and see how it changes. I personally have found something like a five to 10 Beat per minute change, which goes down when I lose weight and goes up when I gain weight down when I lose weight, or when I gain weight, very clear correlation. The second thing you can try is before and after you change your training or your movement. So if you right now, you're pretty sedentary and you're gonna start strength training, or let's say you train but you only get like three or 4000 steps a day, and you're gonna go up to like eight or 10,000 subsidy. That's also great before and after, to compare. And just make sure you note when you're doing these things and compare them your resting heart rate, and you should definitely see an improvement. So a good resting heart rate is going to be around 60 or potentially lower. But again, it's relative to you, your history, all these other factors. And if you can improve it, that's that's the best. Okay, and then there's one more question. One final question is what's the best way to add electrolytes to your water if you don't like flavored water. electrolytes, of course allow us to absorb our water and stay hydrated. And there's multiple ways to do this. The one I always recommend it's super easy as adding a pinch of, of sea salt or Himalayan salt to your water, salt, of course it does contain sodium, and then add lemon juice to that because Lemon. Lemon juice contains citric acid which helps enhance the absorption of electrolytes and also has vitamin C, which can't go wrong with so salt lemon juice. Another way to do it is to just buy off the shelf liquid electrolyte supplements, right? elements or Dr. Berg's I think it's called I mean, there's a whole bunch just looking at ingredients that contain usually multiple electrolytes, sodium, potassium, magnesium chloride, the oftentimes don't have sugar calories, some have artificial sweeteners. So it's really up to you what you want there. And you can, you know, pop those in your water after a workout, for example. And then one other thing that I haven't tried myself that adding some coconut water or watermelon juice as well, because those are natural sources of electrolyte and they would add some nice flavor to your, to your water, as well. Okay, so that was a lot of questions. I you know, it's like 11 questions for today. Speaking of questions, I wanted to mention something that we just started recently in the Wits & Weights Facebook community, which by the way, is totally free to join. We have something called Ask Philip, where you can post a specific question about your health and fitness journey. And I'll answer it live on Fridays with the video replay immediately available in the group. So I want to be clear, this is more than just a general q&a, like today's episode, the Ask Phillip thread gives you the chance to get very specific about your goals and where you're stuck. Right? Like, hey, you know, here, here
Philip Pape 39:08
are my macros. Here's how I train. Here's how many steps I get blah, blah, blah, and I'm stuck at a weight plateau weight loss plateau. What do I do? Or I've never tracked before, I'm not sure if it's right for me. Here's my scenario here. Here's my goal, what do I do? Right? And then I will give you a very specific answer to help you move forward based on your situation. So if you're not already in our free Facebook community, click the link in my show notes or search for Wits & Weights on Facebook. Again, just click the link in my show notes to join our free community. All right, on our next episode 91. I will be reviewing the latest research around protein intake and body composition. And I'm going to break down exactly what matters why it matters. The simple steps you can take to ensure you're getting enough protein both for the minimum effective dose but also to opt Amazing results, including some surprising findings from the research. So make sure to follow or subscribe to the podcast Wits & Weights in your podcast app right now go ahead click the subscribe click the Follow so you get notified of every new episode. And as always, stay strong. And I'll talk to you next time here on the Wits. & Weights podcast. Thank you for tuning in to another episode of Wits & Weights. If you found value in today's episode, and know someone else who's looking to level up their Wits & Weights. Please take a moment to share this episode with them. And make sure to hit the Follow button in your podcast platform right now to catch the next episode. Until then, stay strong
Ep 89: Reverse Lower Back Pain and Herniated Discs Using Natural Movement with Dr. Ryan Peebles
Joining me on the show is Dr. Ryan Peebles, a Doctor of Physical Therapy, to talk about a topic that many people have experience with, myself included, and that is lower back pain. You'll learn about the "deep core" and why it's the key to reversing back pain. We will discuss how age, lifestyle, stress, and heavy lifting impact our lower backs. We will also discuss the pros and cons of chiropractic adjustments, physical therapy, and MRIs.
Joining me on the show is Dr. Ryan Peebles, a Doctor of Physical Therapy, to talk about a topic that many people have experience with, myself included, and that is lower back pain. You'll learn about the "deep core" and why it's the key to reversing back pain.
We will discuss how age, lifestyle, stress, and heavy lifting impact our lower backs. We will also discuss the pros and cons of chiropractic adjustments, physical therapy, and MRIs.
Dr. Ryan committed his life to uncovering the root causes of chronic back problems and learning how to reverse them. Now, he helps thousands of back pain sufferers get back to doing what they love without pain each year. He created a unique movement retraining program called Core Balance Training, which successfully reverses back pain.
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Book a FREE 30-minute call with Philip here.
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Today you’ll learn all about:
[1:58] Personal experience with back pain and its effect on identity
[4:18] Understanding the "deep core" and its relation to back pain
[6:33] Best practices for recovery from lower back injuries
[8:25] Preventing lower back injuries: the role of strength, activities, posture
[11:07] Impacts of a sedentary lifestyle on back health and mitigation strategies
[14:01] Age and its correlation to lower back pain
[21:45] The effects of modern society's activities on back health
[22:56] What Ryan did after his accident
[25:58] Impact of heavy lifting exercises like back squats and deadlifts on back health
[28:26] Stephanie shares her experience with her one-on-one nutrition coaching with Philip
[29:42] The role of stress and mental health in back pain
[34:39] Pros and cons of chiropractic adjustments for back pain
[38:13] Effectiveness of physical therapy or massage therapy in treating lower back pain
[43:07] When to consider getting an MRI for back pain
[47:57] Possibility of healing herniated or bulging discs without surgery
[49:39] Overview of Core Balance Training and its unique approach to back pain
[51:23] The effect of Core Balance training on pain in other areas
[53:12] Learn more about Ryan and CBT
[54:13] Outro
Episode resources:
Dr. Ryan's website: www.corebalancetraining.com
Youtube: @CoreBalance
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Email: philip@witsandweights.com
Podcast: Q&A voicemail
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Transcript
Dr. Ryan Peebles 00:00
For most people with chronic back pain, and we deal with people that have been having back pain for 30, even 40 years, you can actually get back to an active lifestyle without setting yourself into, you know, an episode or a flare up of
Philip Pape 00:17
Welcome to the Wits & Weights podcast. I'm your host Philip pape, and this twice a week podcast is dedicated to helping you achieve physical self mastery by getting stronger. Optimizing your nutrition and upgrading your body composition will uncover science backed strategies for movement, metabolism, muscle and mindset with a skeptical eye on the fitness industry. So you can look and feel your absolute best. Let's dive right in. Wits & Weights community Welcome to another episode of the Wits & Weights podcast. Joining me on the show is Dr. Ryan Peebles, a doctor of physical therapy to talk about a topic that so many people have experience with myself included, and that is lower back pain. You'll learn about the deep core and why it's the key to reversing back pain. We'll get into practical strategies on how to recover from lower back injuries, prevent them from happening and improve our back health. I'm going to ask Dr. Ryan about how things like age, lifestyle stress, maybe even footwear and heavy lifting impact our lower backs. We'll get into the pros and cons of chiropractic adjustments, physical therapy and MRIs. I'm personally interested in that one, and we'll learn about his core balance training to reverse back pain. When chronic back problems threatened to take his passion of surfing away from him forever. Ryan committed his life to uncovering its root causes and learning how to reverse them. Now Dr. Ryan helps 1000s of back pain sufferers each year get back to doing what they love. Without pain. He created a unique movement retraining program called core balance training that is highly successful at reversing back pain through increased core connection. Ryan, welcome to the show. Hello, Phillip.
Dr. Ryan Peebles 01:55
Thanks for having me. I'm happy to be here. Awesome.
Philip Pape 01:58
So I want to start off with the whole surfer thing. Because you are a passionate surfer. Not something I'm too familiar with. I grew up in, in South Florida. We had beaches, you couldn't really surf there and I never picked it up. But you're a surfer You almost lost your ability to surf because of your back pain. So tell us about that. And how did that affect your identity?
Dr. Ryan Peebles 02:17
Right? Yeah, so I started surfing when I was super young, my dad threw me under the water. And it was definitely part of my identity. And it's kind of an extreme sport on the spine because of the pop ups. So if you're not familiar with surfing, you know, when you go to pop up off a surfboard, you're kind of doing a cobra, you know, the yoga position of a Cobra for a moment, but it's also kind of abrupt. It's kind of forceful. And so the repetitive nature of that backward bending Can I mean, a lot of surfers struggle with lower back pain. Because of that, you have tight hip flexors, which I'm sure you and your audience are aware of it flexors and stuff, right. So that's going to make it a lot worse. And that was the case for me. And so I started getting lower back pain at a really young age. And worse, you know, it was probably about 610 when it started and got worse over the next eight years, to the point where Yeah, I had to take about two years away or at this at that point, I felt like I was done surfing. But it was a period of about two years, where I couldn't serve until I learned some things about my body and got it back into balance.
Philip Pape 03:28
Cool. Yeah, I, I've heard a lot of people go through experiences like that some people really never figure it out, never seem to figure out how to recover. I've talked about my story here where I actually did end up having surgery, it was a micro diskectomy for for severely herniated disc, whether I had to or not, I'll be curious to see if that's a question I can answer from today. But for me, it was like getting back to lifting, right. So people like to do what they do they have passions, and we don't want to give these things up because of something that's potentially fixable. So I do want to talk about the mechanics of this. And some specific questions I have. One starts with just this idea of the deep core that he talked about, that it's the root cause. And, you know, my idea of the core is, you know, the trunk and all the muscles and the system that supports that. And I think of that in terms of like isometrics and stabilization, at least when I do lifting. But can you explain what you mean by the deep core and why it's important?
Dr. Ryan Peebles 04:21
Yeah, definitely. So I wouldn't say the deep core is the root cause I think it's the solution, actually. So, you know, I can get real deep into the cause, but we'll kind of skip to the fun part and talk about how the deep core can be the solution. It is the it's the muscles that you can't see from the outside. It's composed of the muscles underneath the six pack abs, and they tend to wrap around the torso, you know, the flank area around the sides and it's shaped like a corset. And as the Test designed to support the lower back the lumbar spine. And that's the area of our body. You know, if you look at a skeleton, where there's the least bony support, and you can see behind me scaly back there, for those watching, the ribcage provides tons of support for the thoracic spine, and then you have the pelvis down below. And that's inherently very stable, but there's a gap between the pelvis and the ribs, where it's really just the spine. And so we rely heavily on this corset like muscle group, which I call the deep core. But you know, it's composed of several different muscles. And it doesn't really, you don't really need to know the names, because we don't single out any one of them as the Savior, it's not the transverse abdominus, that's going to heal your back. They're all designed to work together. And so that's what the program that I teach is about is about reconnecting with that muscle group and learning how to use it in your everyday life.
Philip Pape 06:01
I like that you said they have to work together like a system. Again, just making an analogy to lifting weights, you know, people love to talk about muscle groups and individual muscles and individual, you know, isolation movements, when in reality, if you don't have that overall movement pattern down first, and then overall strength with it think muscles work together, it's gonna be hard to go beyond that, or you might be at risk for injury. So it's funny, you said, I was gonna ask you the name of the muscles a little bit, because I'm so interested in like, Oh, what do you call it? It's okay. So, um, a lot of people. And I know, we want to focus on the positive, but we have to start with like, the fact that a lot of people suffer from lower back injuries, things like herniated discs. So just top level, before we get to all the details, what is what's the best way to recover from them and avoid chronic pain?
Dr. Ryan Peebles 06:49
Yeah, so there, there's a large percentage of lower back injuries that will end up becoming chronic pain and, and there's another percentage of people who will recover and they can move on with their lives. But it's that large percentage that I deal with, it's specifically chronic back pain that we're focused on. And I guess, you know, the best way to avoid it, if I was going to break it down into like, I don't know, it's just like, in a nutshell, it would be listening to your body. And there's so much more that goes into that. But our body is constantly communicating to us the things that it doesn't like through pain, but also the things that it wants more of through good feelings. And so it works both ways. And if if you just do more of what feels good, when what's working for your body and do less of what's hurting, like sitting, for example, is probably a pretty safe way to not fall into that chronic category. But yeah, I don't think that there's really something I could just say, like, Oh, you got a herniated disc? How do you how do you not let it become chronic? Without talking about the core? Okay. It's such a major part. You know, I think even Logically, if people just think about it, like, there's something to do with the core that that is going to be necessary to recover from that. And so that's where all arrows point to for me.
Philip Pape 08:20
Okay, let's follow the arrows because you mentioned something like sitting right, where I think a lot of people will say that, well, I understand that I've got things that I do all day, because I'm working behind a desk and work from home and I sit, and maybe while I'm sitting it's not, maybe it's not painful, but then there's some pain when I get up or you know, like I'm stiff and all these things. How do you listen to your body? Because like some people I think don't have that signal anymore, right? So how do you relearn to do that properly? Yeah,
Dr. Ryan Peebles 08:49
I talk a lot about this actually on my podcast as well. So listening to your body is actually more than just feeling pain, or feeling good feelings. You can get into that what you actually what you spoke about, where sometimes you have to reflect back because the body often has delayed signals. And so for example, a lot of people will hurt themselves, stretching or doing any yoga class, but they're not they don't feel like they're hurting themselves in the moment. But then maybe later that night, or even the next day, they're their back is tweaked, and like they just feel off. I think that's a really common experience. And it's not because of what you're doing in that moment. It's because of what you did a few hours ago or even a day or even two days ago. So there's always this ongoing this this like moving period of time where the things that you've done recently affect you now and it does require reflecting back. Another thing you mentioned is like, well, you know, we got to sit a lot for work and I do think sitting is kind of like the enemy. But it's also to stop sitting is not realistic. And it's also not the solution to back pain. Because if if it was that simple, I think that everybody would have a standing desk and a lot less people would have back pain is
Philip Pape 10:16
are you sitting right now? Are you sitting right? I
Dr. Ryan Peebles 10:18
am sitting right now. So, you know, it's gonna be just like a lot of things in life, it's a fine balance. And we have to sit just because of the society that we're in. And so that might require us to do a little more cross training, like focused on things that open up the body, because sitting is a very closed position. It's right. It's like the fetal position. And so walking would be a good example of something that kind of is a healthy search synergistic movement that opens the body. So to do that, in between in a little breaks from sitting, to go walking, but again, I don't really think for somebody that's already in a state of chronic back pain that that alone is going to be the solution is just one step in the right direction.
Philip Pape 11:07
Okay, so what are the other steps? Right? Because you talked about the core, do you want to get into that?
Dr. Ryan Peebles 11:11
Yeah, so a little background on the cause, because I think you do have to understand the cause, to be able to, you know, understand the solution. So that was my belief. And you can, you know, do your own research. And, you know, you don't just trust me right off the bat, but take what you believe my belief that the cause of the vast majority of chronic lower back pain conditions comes down to muscle imbalances. And so that's just a word or a phrase for when the muscles in your body are the tension and the tone. And those muscles are not the way that they really should be. So the hip flexors might be a little bit too tight. And another muscle group like the abdominals might be a little bit lengthened, and maybe possibly underactive, and the things that you do. And this pattern, there's a predictable pattern and muscle imbalances. You know, the upper traps get tight, the glutes tend to get a little amnesia, we sit on them all day. That's not surprising, right? So this pattern of muscles that are too tight, and other muscles that are too weak, lead to postural imbalances. And if you zoom in really far in the body, if you look at the joints, they just tend to be a little less congruent than they would be if the muscles that are attached to them, those tension guy wires essentially, were more imbalanced with each other. So you can think about a tent, if you if you had a tent that was held up by guy wires, and you pulled some of them too tight and the others do loosened, the tent would be a little wonky, right. So that's a similar thing that happens to our body, that affects the joints, they're not as congruent. So there's more friction in the joints. Or when there's more friction on something like a disc, your L, five s, one disc, it's going to wear down a little quicker. And so that could end up being a bulging disc, or a herniated disc or degenerative disc disease. The the final event that happens is like the diagnosis. But if you just go upstream a little bit, all of these different results can you can kind of find a pattern that they're all coming from this monster of muscle imbalances that we are dealing with. And this is again, specific to chronic back pain. So yes, you can hurt your back in a car accident. But if you hurt your back, picking up a toilet paper roll, it's most likely not the toilet paper roll that hurt your back, it's most likely that was just to use upon the straw that broke the camel's back. And you've been this has been building up for a long time in these muscular imbalances that I'm talking about.
Philip Pape 14:01
What about the classic situation where and this is what I went through where I had like when I was 30 just a pop, right? And I was like warming up on squats had to hop really painful went away after a day or two years later, came back. And then it got worse and worse till it was like I had a numb leg like sciatica basically, where I can barely walk or stand. And you know, had the MRI and the whole thing. And I had had herniated discs before and it was now completely like squirted out, you know, so to speak. But I didn't have pain between that entire year just the disease acute episodes, is that that's not chronic pain, or can that still kind of be chronic pain? And I just got lucky and didn't feel it because it wasn't impinging the nerve or is this completely different situation?
Dr. Ryan Peebles 14:47
Yeah, that's a really good question. I wouldn't say what you experienced is actually a lot more common than the back problem from a car accident, or from picking up a toilet paper roll. Although both of those things happen. A lot, the most common one is something in between those two. And so I would consider just the fact that you were warming up that it wasn't like a one rep max, that it was, there was probably something building up to that. Right, right. And then you went a couple years without symptoms. And that is maybe it's not maybe not typical, but it's not uncommon. And part of that could be just because there are no nerves, no pain, nerves, no nociceptors, inside a desk. So the pain receptors are actually on the surface of the disc, and other anatomy other tissues of the body. So it may just be that the way that your disc ruptured, was not triggering the pain signals until it progressed to the point where it reached that again, two years later, I felt it again.
Philip Pape 15:58
And then when people tell me about their herniated discs, I hear all different, again, a spectrum of things where it seems that with age, there's definitely some correlation, right? Just natural. I'll call it natural degeneration. But you can challenge that if that's not really true, because there are a lot of correlations we make with age that are not because of age or because of other things that happen to happen over time. Because you're getting older, for example, loss of muscle mass, you know, we we talk about our slow metabolisms, it's not because we're old, it's because we've lost muscle as we age. The I've definitely heard the statements like everybody over 30 hat will show something on an MRI. And, you know, almost everything can be healed and doesn't require surgery. And I want to get into all those statements. Because whether true or not, I want to hear your perspective, specifically a herniated disc, but then other things that are very common degenerative issues that cause chronic pain, what what's your take on all that?
Dr. Ryan Peebles 16:55
Yeah, so definitely, there is an element of aging. And so with aging, there's going to be natural degeneration, osteoarthritis, stuff like that is going to it's definitely going to occur and all of us, and so you can get to, into the research and find that there's something like, you know, over 50% of people, I actually have it, I'm going to pull it up. While I'm talking here, I have a lot of interesting percentages that would make people feel better about themselves, okay, because if you're, you know, 35 years old, and you have a bulging disc, and you may feel like you're, you know, kind of your spines a little compromised, and then you find out that 60% of people your age, have that same thing. And those 60% of people have no symptoms at all, that there's a very poor correlation between these MRI findings and the pain. So I find it one of the most interesting parts of research, so I just pulled it up right now. So disc degenerate, what's what's your age range? What decade are you in?
Philip Pape 18:02
I'm 42. Exactly. Okay, so
Dr. Ryan Peebles 18:04
in your 40s. So, in your 40s 68% of people with no back pain at all will have degenerative disc disease 68% disc bulge 50% of people in the 40s. And this is 40. So it might be closer to 40. And then, let's see herniated disc 1/3 of people, one out of every three people walking around with no back pain at all have a herniated disc. So it's extremely common in their ages as you go up in age. Like I can see in the 80s here. 96% of people in their 80s have degenerative disc disease. It's not really a disease. It's just aging. But the problem occurs when it's kind of like premature aging when these problems start happening too early in life, and different parts of the body break down faster than they should like for me, I was 16 years old. I got my X ray. And the chiropractor who took the X ray told me that my my discs looked like they were 40 years old. So like definitely I felt broken. I felt like something was wrong with me and and so that kind of degeneration happened early for me. And there is a reason beyond age. That's related to that. You know, my personal story. I had something to do with surfing but it also had to do with the fact that I started lifting weights, heavy weights, bodybuilding style lifting when I was 13 years old, and I created these muscle imbalances in my body that I've now discovered a really common across the population. It's the same pattern of imbalances that bring you into the fetal position is the same pattern that people are voluntarily going and when they're sitting. So these types of activities, and it's not just sitting, it could be something like stress, when we get stressed out, we hold tension in our bodies, right? Well, the tissues that hold tension, the best are the muscles, they're the most dynamic tissue in our body. And so they can they that's how they say this, the only language they speak is tension. So they, they increase tension, they decrease tension. And when we're tense in our mind, we hold that in our muscles, and there are specific muscles that hold it more than others. Like the upper traps, you know, those neck muscles that everybody can feel gets tight. On the hip flexors are another one. And all of these muscles are the pattern that they that that they that relates all of them is that they all contribute to bringing bringing the body towards the protective position, which is the fetal position, which is sitting, which is how it all relates to this. And so I know I kind of went off on a tangent there, but it's good. Yeah, that's how you can, your body can age prematurely. And if you look at an old person, they are curling back down right into the fetal position, which is what we started life in, we open up and the goal is really just to stay open for as long as possible.
Philip Pape 21:26
Stay open for as long as possible. So if we were going to take your 16 year old version of you who had been lifting weights, and then had the surfing the the surfing conditions, you know, the Cobra moves the pop ups, right? That and and we also think about humans before modern civilization, for example. What's the difference? Like is, is most of this issue of being too closed in, like you said, sitting a function of modern life? Or is there would this have happened naturally, if humans lived to they were 50 6070? Way back when?
Dr. Ryan Peebles 21:59
I definitely think it's related to a modern society. I think back in the day, people moved a lot more. And, you know, there was a point in history when the chair had not been invented yet. And so it's really interesting to think that that, that something that we do, probably more than anything else is, is actually not part of our history. Right. So you know, there's, there's a whole lot of people out there that believe, you know, the healthiest thing that we can do is try to mimic what our ancestors did. And, and I think that I'm probably fall into that category. And there was probably a lot less back pain, a lot less postural, a lot less text, neck, back back then. If you've heard of Yeah. So yeah, definitely related.
Philip Pape 22:53
No, I can I can feel that. So then what are you doing? What did you start doing? After you had that accident? Or that diagnosis of yours, that you also do for other people? Now that helps us get into that better movement pattern?
Dr. Ryan Peebles 23:10
Yeah, so the first thing I started doing was searching everywhere. For a solution, you know, I went to every possible type of health care provider, every doctor, I went to countless physical therapists, for a 10 year period. I mean, I tried everything under the sun that I could think of and find. And the turning point happened when I decided that I could, I had to just stop searching outside of me, and I had to just take responsibility, I realized I wasn't going to find the person that was going to heal me. It was me, that was the only person that could heal me. And so that was my major turning point. And I, you know, for me, it was okay, I'm gonna commit my life to the body. And I'm going to start, I'm going to enter a profession that's dedicated to healing the back. And so that was physical therapy for me. But, you know, going through physical therapy school, I was, I wouldn't say it was the thing that taught me my solution. What we do in core balanced training is we actually model core connection, core development after how an infant and a baby develops their corn. Because if you you know, if you look at a four year old child, they have developed perfect posture and movement without any developmental abnormalities before your child has perfect posture and movement. And nobody ever told them how to do that, right. They don't know what a muscle is or how to contract it or what their names are. They just naturally did it. And that was through their interaction with really as an infant and a baby with the floor and gravity and thereby and their intention was that they just wanted to get up and be like everyone else. And they were pushing away from the floor. And, and when you're, when you're an infant, your arms and legs are pretty much have no strength, all your strength is in your core. And so they push away from the floor with different parts of their core. And so we've named these areas of the body, we call them support points. And we model after that, we just simply get down on the floor. And when we develop, we reconnect to our core through pushing away from it. And then it's a three month program. So it's, you know, it's a lot more involved in that. But ultimately, what we do is we get familiar with that core connection, and then we apply it to all the functional movements of our daily life, which if for you, if it's, you know, lifting weights, it would, it would integrate that core connection and do a deadlift and do a squat. And
Philip Pape 25:58
how does that work?
Dr. Ryan Peebles 26:00
Yeah, so the core connection is simply just learning a way to engage your core, you know, everybody says, you know, engage your core or use your core or whatever. But how do you do that? Nobody for a long time, nobody ever taught me how to do that, like, what was the right way to do it? Like, they teach in Pilates? Or like abdominal hollowing? Or you bring a belly button to your spine? Is that the right way? Or is it bracing where you're like, you know, kind of bearing down? What is the right way to do that? And, and also, like, how intense do I want to walk around all day, like with a 90% contraction, so that the art of it is really learning how to do it naturally, like in a way that's functional, that you can actually do movements, like something a 10% intensity activity, like gardening, or doing the dishes or something, and have just a subtle level engagement is really not something you can teach in words. And that's why I mentioned earlier, like, a child doesn't really know, if you said contract to your muscle, they wouldn't really know. So he learned through the feeling. And that's why it's it's kind of hard to talk about, it's even hard to, it's hard for me to talk about. And I've been doing this for six years. Now. The learning happens through experience and through feeling so you'd have to get down on the floor. And I'd have to say, Okay, push away from from your back support zone, and feel what happens in your core muscles when you do that. Okay? Now do that for a few days in a row and get really familiar with it. And then we're going to get up off the floor, and we're going to pretend you're doing the same thing. So pretend the floor is there, you're going to push away from that support zone, but the floor is not really there. But the same core engagement will happen without the floor. And then we're going to do that with a deadlift. So that's kind of how it works in the program that that would be that would that process would happen over the first like month, essentially, it's a long term, it's a slow solution.
Philip Pape 28:15
Ya know, like many things, like many things, I mean, we talk about changing our bodies, even with nutrition, whatever else, you know, it takes time you got to learn, you got to put in habits, you have to practice getting feedback, and so on.
28:26
The most value that I got from this was the fact that I had someone that I could talk to about anything, and that there was going to be no judgement, it was just Well, here are your goals, here's the best way that you're going to achieve it. And then let's work together to help you feel inspired and motivated to do that. And a lot of people out there trying to be coaches, and not all of them have done the work and also just be a genuine person that is positive and coming from the heart in terms of wanting to help and Philip really embody all of those qualities, I would recommend him to just about anyone that's looking to achieve goals in that realm of their nutrition and building new habits.
Philip Pape 29:11
You have you have videos all right, you have a YouTube channel. Yeah.
Dr. Ryan Peebles 29:15
So I mean, we have a YouTube channel, which is where I kind of just educate on any number of topics with the actual program is kind of like an online course. Videos. It's five minute videos and one lesson per day for there's there's 12 weeks worth of modules.
Philip Pape 29:36
Okay, yeah, so we'll we'll definitely put that in the show notes. I want to ask a few more questions about some of the causes too, because you mentioned stress. And I remember when I was going through my back issues, somebody recommended a book to me by someone who had his his whole philosophy was about the mental side of you might even know who it is I came
Dr. Ryan Peebles 29:56
to John Sarno healing
Philip Pape 30:00
Gonna go? I don't know what your thoughts are on him or on that on that I didn't pursue it too far because it didn't seem necessarily applicable to me. But anyway, go for it.
Dr. Ryan Peebles 30:09
Yeah, so that is one of the books on the recommended reading list for all students in the program. I've got probably like four books on this list. And so that's one of them is a pretty big deal. So Dr. John Sarno teaches that all chronic back pain is actually mental. And that it's a he calls it TMS. And so he named it and, and so it really relates the mind and body. Now, do I agree with him? Not completely, I think there's a major physical aspect to back pain, but it's very eye opening for people to even just be introduced that idea of the mountains, you know, the mind body connection could actually be that strong that stress in your mind could cause back pain. And I think there's definitely truth to that. I just don't stand in the extreme side of the court that I say all back pain is from that. I often say that 90% of the solution to back pain is mental. And that's because, yeah, we're doing physical things. But so much of what we're doing is requires focus. And I think a lot of great athletes and trainers would say the same thing about their sport or their activity. I know, that's probably, but I just watched the documentary on Arnold Schwarzenegger. And he was talking about that his bodybuilding was actually mental. And the body, you change the shape of your body with your mind. But yeah, there's lifting weights involved. But there's just such a huge component of the mind in doing that.
Philip Pape 32:03
I agree 100%, I wanted to bring this up. Because when, when I, when I read that book, my wife and I then looked up the documentary he had made, which is hard to find, because it's not like you could just stream it, you know. And they were just case after case after case of person who people who they were in such pain, you know, they were on the ground and their legs up most of the day, that kind of thing. And they dealt with it mentally. But definitely, again, when I think of lifting weights, for example, I've definitely come around to the idea that the physical, the physical is just the tail end of like the chain of effects, right? You've got to have the mental, whether it's resilience, or focus or mindfulness while you're doing it. And I could see how all of that is tied together and people listening, just be open minded about all of this, because what you're saying makes a lot of sense. And if you haven't found a solution, then you know, there's something else that's got to kind of work for you. It's not like it's hopeless.
Dr. Ryan Peebles 32:59
Yeah, definitely. I mean, I have I read John Cernos book when I was struggling when I didn't have a solution. And it was a, it was a turning point for me just, you know, it was such a massive eye opener, that I have it on my reading list, right for all of my students. But did it heal my back pain? No, it's just something it's another step. Just like what we were talking about with sitting or you know, cross training to reduce the effects of sitting, it's, it's not going to heal you completely, especially if you have a long history of chronic back conditions. But it is a big step in the right direction. And if you and if you do enough of those steps, with different elements, you can definitely no matter what's going on, you can definitely improve your life to the point where tomorrow is better than today. And you can for most people with chronic back pain, and we deal with people that have been having back pain for 30, even 40 years, you can actually get back to an active lifestyle without setting yourself into you know, an episode or a flare up of pain is just improving that relationship with your body. And it's it's a journey that doesn't end you keep going you keep learning every day
Philip Pape 34:23
really for people to hear you can you can improve every day and part of it is opening your mind to improving your mind and thinking positively and taking that action and all that like you said not one thing is going to solve everything necessarily but they all come together and maybe spiral on each other. I wanted to ask about so getting into solutions people think about one of those is chiropractic. Okay, I've never been to a chiropractor, I've thought about it but tell me your thoughts on about totally open minded are they worth it? Do they provide relief to they make a difference? Doesn't matter based on the chiropractor, you know?
Dr. Ryan Peebles 34:56
Well, I'm gonna start off by saying that people think I hit cut I practice and I don't, I've had a, I've had a, you know, one of my greatest mentors was a chiropractor. So I, it's all up to the individual. And like in any profession, there are good ones, and there are bad ones. And so if you're gonna go to chiropractic, my best recommendation is to do your research, you know, look at the reviews on the person, hopefully go to someone with like, from a good referral, because the problem with chiropractic is, they, it's possible that, you know, if, if you get a bad one, like I did, when I was probably around 22 years old, they can hurt you, you know, it can hurt your body, if if they do something that's too extreme. And typically, if you have a herniated disc, the underlying nature of that kind of condition is instability. The tissues that connect the vertebrae are compromised. And when they're compromised, that means they're not, they're not holding it together as well as they would, right. So that's it's not as stable as it would as it would be if the tissues were fully intact. And so typically, you just, you don't want to manipulate, you don't want to thrust an injured tissue like that. And the good chiropractors know that they won't do that. And they use different kinds of techniques, and they adjust other areas of the body. But when I was 22 years old, a chiropractor gave me a strong thrust into my injured vertebrae. And it's, you know, that that sent me spiral spiraling for years, actually, I really, it really messed me up. And so that's why I had a really bad experience with a chiropractor in my life. And that's true story. And, and I always tell people, you know, do your research, but they are, there are good ones out there. And there, they are able to help you get, you know, be like, maybe be a catalyst for getting, you know, improving your body. But again, as I said, in the very beginning of the show, there, the solution is not outside of you. It is not somebody else, it only can be you. And it only can be you improving the way that you use and operate this body that you live inside. And that's, that's my strong belief, there is no other solution to back pain, even if you get surgery, you still have to do the work to improve the way that you use your body.
Philip Pape 37:37
And that's empowering too, right? Because it means we have control over it. Your example of the cat, the chiropractor as a catalyst made me think of like, for example, these new GLP one agonists for for people to lose weight, right? It's like a catalyst, maybe if you've you know, struggled, struggled, struggled, but then you got to do the work. Right? I just spoke to a person who on my podcast came out say he had bariatric surgery years ago. And he's like, it's tough. If you're going to do that, you got to go through the work. So I like that it really comes down to you your choices in your control, but you have to know what to do, which is guy like you here telling us some some of that, what we can try. So what about two other areas would be massage therapy and physical therapy. So obviously, your physical therapist will in there, but massage therapy, what do you think about that?
Dr. Ryan Peebles 38:21
I think everybody should get massages, because, you know, it improves blood flow to the muscles and makes you feel good. If you can afford it. You know, it's it's a fantastic thing. Some massage therapists can get a little aggressive. And if you have an injury, it would be very wise of you to let them know before getting a massage can attest to that. Yeah. So I mean, I got one, I think it was two days ago. And it was actually pretty aggressive. And I even told him, I was like, I have a history of back problems. It's all good. Now I just want to let you know. And he was doing some like thrusts on my on my spine. I was, you know, in the middle of the massage, I'm like, It's okay, I don't need that. So just to set some boundaries around your body, don't stay quiet. If they're messing with one of your injuries and it hurts. Speak up there. They don't know. They can't feel you know what you feel. But other than that, I think massage is a fantastic thing for you know, all the reasons even if it's just because it feels good. that's healthy for your mind. Which is healthy for your body. So yeah. Is it the solution to bachlin? Probably not. That's the theme of your battle. Yes. Yeah. So So physical therapy. So I'm a physical therapist, right. So naturally, I would have a bias towards my profession. And I will be the first to say that it's actually not that effective for chronic lower back pain. I did ongoing physical therapy for about 10 years when I had my problem, and I got better each time, you know, I would go for, you know, 12 to 16 visits and then get discharged and then start the cycle again. And each time, I would probably get a little bit better. And then as soon as I stopped, the problem would return. And so I think there's a gap with physical therapy, where the exercises and the hands on treatment become the solution. And I don't think that's enough. Because when you get off that treatment table, and you leave the clinic, with those other 23 hours of your day, if you're just living them the same way that you did before. And I mean, I mean, literally like walking around in your body, bending over doing the things in the same way, then that's so much more significant than 30 minutes or an hour on a treatment table. And so I think that the gap with physical therapy is that there's not enough emphasis on integrating the way that they teach you to use your body into activities of daily living of the tasks that you do the mundane things that you do to get through your day, every day. And that's where I think that you can have a long term solution, and not be dependent on exercises, as the things that will keep you out of pain.
Philip Pape 41:25
I've never heard it put that way. And that was really clear the idea that 23 hours of our day, when we're not in physical therapy, we're basically reversing or worse, what happened in physical therapy, and then that's only for 12 sessions, right, or 16 sessions and the rest is gone. So I've never heard it put that way. But I know personal experience physical therapy, I was always thinking, I was always feeling like it wasn't enough where there wasn't much going on, you know. And then even when I did the exercises, you're right. It's just like these discrete, you know, moments, rather than, Hey, there's this overall movement pattern you need to work on, like you said, the moving like an infant and dealing with your back that
Dr. Ryan Peebles 42:02
way. Yeah. Well, moving, developing, like an infant understood under, you know, but yeah, I really, I really don't like the whole three sets of 10 thing. And it's so common physical therapy, but I will also say the same thing. It's the there's, there's good ones, and there's not so good ones. And the best physical therapists are doing what I'm talking about. They're doing movement patterns, they're doing movement retraining, and they're telling you the things that will last beyond walking out of the clinic door.
Philip Pape 42:40
Yeah, I like how you're speaking movement patterns, because, again, just tying it to lifting because that's, that's what I know. Yeah. When I, when I did CrossFit, and all sorts of other things for years that were fun, you know, they were athletic, but they didn't, they didn't make me a lot stronger help with my muscle mass. And then I learned about movement based strength training, right, which a lot of the compound lifts kind of fall in that category where we start thinking systematically. So I like where you're going with that. That you mentioned MRIs before? And I don't know, we didn't really get into it. The level I wanted to, but how effective are they should people get them? Are they misleading? What are your thoughts.
Dr. Ryan Peebles 43:17
So I think they're necessary because they, they need to be able to rule out something like a cyst or a tumor or stuff that we can't see that could be going on, on the inside. And so they're important. However, I think that the way that we use them is not the most beneficial for most, the vast majority of back pain patients. Because what happens when you have back pain, you get an MRI, you find out you've got, you know, a degenerative disc, or a bulging disc or a herniated disc, like in your case, oftentimes, we get the report, or we talk to the doctor, and then we feel a little broken. And that is not good for the mind. Because when we feel broken, it actually changes the way that we move is there's a name for it. It's called fear avoidance behavior. And so we we a lot of people can develop a parent movements where they're, they would they'll bend over to pick something up in a different way that's more kind of protective are trying not to hurt themselves. And then we'll also avoid activities we'll avoid, you know, when maybe we won't go play that pickup game of basketball. And so that is in as a single event. It's not that big of a deal, but it accumulates and it spirals into, okay, now I'm not going to do that activity anymore either, because my back's not feeling very good. And then you know, you don't use it, you lose it. Your body adapts to this less active lifestyle. And we continue to go in the downward spiral of back pain. So I do think MRIs are important. But I think it's important to educate people like what we were talking about earlier about how common the conditions are, and how they're very poorly correlated with pain. Because remember, those percentages I was giving you earlier, were all for people that have no symptoms, no back pain. And so there's a poor correlation. And sometimes there's people with severe back pain that have none of those conditions. There's the MRI is unremarkable. But they have severe back pain that is that exists, and it's not uncommon. So to educate people, if you're going to give them the report, and then also, I think there is something to be said about maybe just not actually giving people the report, if there's no red flag, if there's no reason to believe that there might be a cancer in there or something and say, you know, your your spine is relatively normal. And we recommend you, you know, being a little more active and getting some maybe getting some physical therapy to treat the pain that you're feeling that there's nothing really about this MRI that makes you broken or different than the rest of society, sure. And then have the effect on people of feeling broken, and then acting different and behave and moving their body as a broken body, they can feel that confidence, which really, I mean, I've made an entire YouTube stream about this, it really improves the health of the way that you move when you move confidently versus in fear.
Philip Pape 46:45
All in the mind. And really, a lot of it is in the mind. It's funny, because again, like just my own personal experience with the surgeon I had the first time I had an MRI that showed, you know, showed a herniated disc. And he said, You know what, this is fine. Like, it's fine. 10 years later, as I had really bad pain symptoms, he said, Well, now it looks like you probably need some intervention, which again, for my unique case, may have been the case, before the 60 something percent of people in their 40s, who have some degeneration without pain, then you have people with pain without degeneration in their MRI, logically, then there's an overlap of people who have pain and have something in their mind MRI, but that may not be causing the pain. Right? It's
Dr. Ryan Peebles 47:27
more of a correlation. And it's not causation. Because again, there are so many outliers. And I think that the way that you had that experience with your doctor was respectable, and I'm sure that there's a lot of radiologists and doctors out there doing it that way. And I'm I hope that it's that's a trend, because it's not the way that I experienced healthcare when I was when I was going through my problems.
Philip Pape 47:57
So consult how many people who have a herniated or bulging disc? Can healing without surgery? Like, is there a number in your mind that is it? You know, 95% of people? Is it half? Is it everyone? Like what are your thoughts on that?
Dr. Ryan Peebles 48:10
Definitely, I don't know. But if I had to guess I would say probably north of 80%. And maybe we'll just go with the 8020 rule, because it's so prevalent. Yeah. And I think that the even with people that get surgery, you know, there's so many people that actually get a second 1/3 One. And I mean, I know multiple people that have had six microdiscectomy days. And it's because you know the surgery isn't doesn't heal the disk, either. It's just removing a, you know, a torn piece of the disk that might be pushing on a nerve in most cases. So. So regardless of the surgery or not, I think the solution has to happen. And the only time I would recommend getting surgery is if the pain is so bad that it impedes the ability of you to do that the actual solution, you know, the core connection, if you can't get down on the floor and do it because the pain is so bad that that's when I would get surgery, and then also if there's motor nerves involved, so if you're experiencing paralysis in your foot or ankle or your hip, that would be definitely a case for getting the getting the part of that nerve that's compressed, just to remove that whatever compressing that nerve.
Philip Pape 49:39
And then as far as the healing goes, is the the movement pattern training that you do the primary part of this or is there an extra element of strength training or something else on top of it?
Dr. Ryan Peebles 49:52
We don't use weights. So the program is heavily focused on just the Developing the core connection. And then we apply it to functional movements. So we once in those first four weeks, our people feel confident with the core connection that we teach. We start to apply it to standing and hip hinging and deadlifts, and squats. And then we get into these other functional movements that train, hip rotation, and thoracic spine mobility. But the way that we leave people off in the program is we kind of usher them into applying this into the things that they love to do. Because really, that's the motivation for a lot of people is like, I can't do this anymore. For me, it was surfing. And that was my motivation to get my body healthy is so that I could surf again. So to apply it to what you love to do, whether that be weightlifting, or running, or yoga, we actually, you know, I'm a big believer in yoga. So I, I kind of end the program, say like, this is how you would apply all this stuff to a yoga move. But yeah, I will say that I think yoga is the best for healthy people, people who have their bodies in balance. And if your body is really out of balance, you can definitely hurt your back, trying to do a yoga move that your body's not ready for. So
Philip Pape 51:19
yeah, sounds like just about any movement can can be until you train it. So what about last thing is what about other pain in other areas? Since you deal with a low back? If you have shoulder issues or hip issues? Does this tend to resolve some of those? Or is that kind of outside your scope. And there's other approaches for those? Yeah, so
Dr. Ryan Peebles 51:36
the focus of the program has definitely lower back pain. But what we've found over the years is that definitely we have the side effect of people telling us that their knees are getting better and their hips are getting better and their neck feels better. And it's not surprising, because we're addressing the body as a whole. And we're improving the posture of the whole body. And those muscle imbalances, that same pattern. It's a predictable pattern of muscle imbalances. And I often refer to it as the monster is underlying a lot of neck pain conditions to you know, like patellar tracking disorders where the patella is actually just in the groove a little laterally, and it's causing a lot of friction. Well guess what's pulling it laterally? A tight muscle on the outside of your leg. And so that's a muscle imbalance just zoomed in to the knee and so that it's that same pattern of multiple monitors that were just generally improving. And yeah, it does tend to make people feel better and other areas that they didn't really expect.
Philip Pape 52:38
Another another good reason we call it the core right? core of everything. All right. So I there's a hard stop in about five minutes here. So I want to ask you the question I ask all guests, and that is, is there any question you wish I had past you? And what is your answer?
Dr. Ryan Peebles 52:53
Oh, man, that actually puts me on the spot because nothing that nothing's coming to me right now. No, I can't really think you covered a lot. And I thought you had some really good questions. So I don't got anything for you there.
Philip Pape 53:12
That works. That works. All right, man. So where can people learn about your program and your work?
Dr. Ryan Peebles 53:18
So you can go to court balance training.com, you can go to YouTube and just search for balanced training. We're all the same names on Instagram, Facebook, whatever. But I think the best resource that I can recommend anybody is the master class, I just took all the most kind of valuable information that I could and I tried to pack it into the smallest video possible. So it's 15 minutes. That explains explains with illustrations. What I was talking about, you know, the underlying muscle imbalances that often lead to chronic lower back pain, and then the solution that that I believe, is the best way to long term address this muscle imbalance and get get back to doing an active lifestyle.
Philip Pape 54:13
Awesome. I will add all those in the show notes. And your approach is refreshing and makes a lot of sense to me. Always looking for solutions to this because it is so prevalent, and I really appreciate you coming on the show, man.
Dr. Ryan Peebles 54:24
Yeah. Thanks for having me. Philip really appreciated. And I look forward to checking out more episodes of your podcast.
Philip Pape 54:31
Yeah, man. Check it out. All right. Thanks for coming on.
Dr. Ryan Peebles 54:33
All right, you're welcome.
Philip Pape 54:37
Thank you for tuning in to another episode of Wits & Weights. If you found value in today's episode, and know someone else who's looking to level up their Wits & Weights. Please take a moment to share this episode with them. And make sure to hit the Follow button in your podcast platform right now to catch the next episode. Until then, stay strong.
Ep 88: Break the Cycle of Body Fat Overshooting for a Stronger, Leaner, and Healthier Physique
Today we are diving into body fat overshooting, which is potentially the most important phenomenon to understand when it comes to body composition in the context of manipulating your nutrition. If you’ve tried many diets over the years with little success, feel like your metabolism is slowing down, or struggle to maintain your weight for the long term, this episode is for you. We'll go over the role of hormones, appetite, and muscle, why 95% of people regain weight, and how to be in the 5% who are successful so you can have not only a leaner physique but a long-term, sustainable approach to maintaining your hard-won results.
Today, for episode 88, titled “Break the Cycle of Body Fat Overshooting for a Stronger, Leaner, and Healthier Physique,” we are diving into body fat overshooting, which is potentially the most important phenomenon to understand when it comes to body composition in the context of manipulating your nutrition. If you’ve tried many diets over the years with little success, feel like your metabolism is slowing down, or struggle to maintain your weight for the long term, this episode is for you.
We'll go over the role of hormones, appetite, and muscle, why 95% of people regain weight, and how to be in the 5% who are successful so you can have not only a leaner physique but a long-term, sustainable approach to maintaining your hard-won results.
Now let’s dive into today’s topic: body fat overshooting.
__________
Book a FREE 30-minute call with Philip here.
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Today you’ll learn all about:
[2:05] The significance of body fat overshooting
[6:04] What is body fat overshooting
[7:40] What is hyperphagia
[8:36] What is fat cell hyperplasia
[10:20] Why strength training is essential to successful weight loss
[13:59] The value of strength training during weight gain
[14:34] Max thanks Philip for helping him prioritize his health and dropping 45 Lbs
[15:38] Protein intake and its significance for weight loss
[19:42] Sustainable approach to weight loss or diet based on your lifestyle
[26:51] Outro
Episode resources:
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FREE 30-minute results breakthrough session with Philip ⬇️
https://witsandweights.com/free-call
Learn about 1-on-1 coaching ⬇️
https://witsandweights.com/coaching
Ask Philip anything ⬇️
IG: @witsandweights
Email: philip@witsandweights.com
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Transcript
Philip Pape 00:00
During weight loss, if you are not strength training, you are going to lose muscle period and it could be very high it could be as high as half half of the tissue you lose could be muscle, I want to iterate this fat. Very clearly if you lose 20 pounds 10 of those could be muscle. Then when you gain 20 pounds back, almost 20 of them are fat. Welcome to the Wits & Weights podcast. I'm your host Philip pape, and this twice a week podcast is dedicated to helping you achieve physical self mastery by getting stronger. Optimizing your nutrition and upgrading your body composition will uncover science backed strategies for movement, metabolism, muscle and mindset with a skeptical eye on the fitness industry so you can look and feel your absolute best. Let's dive right in Wits & Weights community Welcome to another solo episode of the Wits & Weights podcast. I hope you enjoyed our last episode 87 with Ashton love Eric, where we talked about the power of leaning into the future, embracing your future self and becoming an alpha in order to win in fitness and in life. Today for episode 88 titled break the cycle of body fat overshooting for a stronger, leaner and healthier physique. We are diving into the topic of body fat overshooting, which is potentially the most important phenomenon to understand when it comes to how your body changes during fat loss to body composition in the context of manipulating your nutrition. If you've tried lots of diets over the years are a yo yo diets with little success, or you feel like your metabolism is slowing down. Or you've struggled to maintain your weight for the long term. This episode is for you. We'll go over the role of hormones appetite and muscle, why 95% of people regain the weight and then some and how to be in the 5% who are successful. So you can have not only that leaner physique, but also a long term sustainable approach to maintaining your hard won results. Now let's dive into the topic today, which is body fat overshooting? And I want to start by talking about its relevance, like why do we care about this? What is it? I think this topic has significant implications for weight management, for body composition and for health. And these are all tied together. And I think a lot of people don't understand how this works or that it even happens. Okay? It's it touches everyone who embarks on a weight loss journey, fat loss, body comp, whatever. And so it's crucial if you're, you know, care about your investment, your fitness and your health. Talking about weight management, right? It is not uncommon for people who lose weight, especially when they do it through yo yo diets or crash diets or some sort of drastic restriction, cutting whatever to regain it back. And often more than that, and we're talking about staggering numbers, 95% of people gain it back within five years period. This is just shown time and again. And the compounding factor here is that most of this weight gain is predominantly fat, more fat than you lost when you lost the weight because what you're losing when you lose weight is not just fat, but also muscle unless you do the things we talk about later on in this episode, but we need to understand why this happens. Okay. So this creates a cyclical pattern of weight loss and regain that we often talk we often call yo yo dieting, but it's not just that you're going down and up in weight, you are losing muscle on the way down, and then you're gaining fat on the way up. And so your body composition is getting worse and worse, you're you're getting effectively fatter over time, even if the weight on the scale didn't change. And that is not good for your health. So if we understand this, we can optimize our body composition. Because when we lose weight, we want most of that to come from fat rather than muscle. And then the opposite. When we regain weight, we want that most of that to come in form of muscle with just a little bit of fat along for the ride. And so we can strategize our diet and training in favor of muscle maintenance and muscle growth. And that is the crux of everything we talked about. This is why I care so much about strength training and adding that muscle building stimulus because it affects everything. When we talk about nutrition, we can't talk about it in a vacuum, we can't talk about it without the the muscle building to go along with it. And that's what we'll we're going to talk about. metabolic health also is impacted. When you gain back your loss weight primarily as fat. We're talking about reduced insulin sensitivity, increased blood pressure, negative blood lipid profiles. This is important, folks, because what this means is you don't just have to become very overweight, to have these problems occur. And if you've noticed with age that some of your blood markers have declined and you haven't really gained much on the scale. This could be why because of the additional body fat that you're carrying relative to muscle. The other thing is we talk about sustainability all the time sustainable health practices in nutrition, the strategies that are required to properly counteract body fat overshooting, which is a gradual, sustainable approach to fat loss and healthy lifestyle changes, we'll say, will mitigate that, but also give you the habits and routines you need. For any fitness goals you have going forward related to body composition. This is why I keep saying this is maybe the most important thing to understand. And then everything you do with your nutrition and your training are going to affect this. So this is really about empowering you to make the choices. And that allow you to control this machine that is our body, our biological machine, being able to turn the dials to crank it up and to control how we how we look and feel. Okay, so this goes beyond aesthetics. This goes beyond health, it also affects our I mean, goes beyond weight, I should say it also affects your health. And so I don't think it affects everyone. All right. So that's why we care. As far as what it is, okay, let's, let's go a little bit of deep dive into this today. The concept is if you lose a significant amount of weight, and then you go back to your pre dieting habits, which guess what everybody does, like 95% of people do that, you're likely to regain more than you initially lost. And one of the critical factors here is your body's what we call homeostatic mechanism, this is what tries to get you back to its setpoint. And everybody has these these kind of ranges of set points. When you go on a keto diet and you cut a bunch of carbs, you lose a bunch of weight. Yeah, I lost 40 pounds in like two months, all of a sudden, then what happens? Are you able to eat that way for the rest of your life? Chances are very, very likely almost certainly not. You go back to what you read him before, but then you end up gaining weight faster and just mostly fat. Okay. The second thing is adaptive thermogenesis, right metabolic adaptation. As you lose weight, your metabolism goes down. It's conserving energy. It's regulating hormones. We know about this, we talked about this a lot. But the problem is when you're not closely tracking this, and you're not quite aware that this is happening, which people who are crash dieting are usually not tracking their calories and aware of what their expenditure is usually, when you don't know that guess what, when you go back to when the diet is, quote, unquote, over, you're like, Okay, now I'm just gonna sustain my weight. Well, your metabolism has declined, and you don't realize that and so you're actually on a lower amount of energy intake than you were before. And then you might start overeating, not realizing that that's happening. Another interesting thing is called hyperphagia hy perp H AGI is a Greek spelling hyperphagia. So when you have a prolonged period of caloric restriction, there is I believe hyperphagia is tied to the muscle loss that occurs during that diet when you're not strength training. And it creates a very ravenous sensation of hunger, much more than you would have just from metabolic adaptation. And then, and this is kind of your body saying, like, Hey, I am like breaking down all sorts of tissue here, you've got me deprived of energy for a long time, I just need to get whatever I can get my hands on salt, sugar, fat, doesn't matter. Give it to me. And this results in overeating and weight gain contributing to the overshooting you know, you just crave. And you binge and you go back to it, and you're just, you know, or software you started.
Philip Pape 08:37
Another thing, it's a very similar word, but it's different. It's called hyperplasia, and this is related to your fat cells. And this is not something we want to have happen. If you go through an extreme weight loss phase right beyond the limits crash dieting, what have you, you can stimulate the production of brand new fat cells, that's fat cell hyperplasia. Normally, when you gain weight, you you fill up your fat cells, when you lose weight, they shrink. But if you lose too quickly, your body says, oh, no, we don't have enough energy storage, devices, units, whatever. And it increases your out of out of sight tissue, okay? Which will never go away. And I'm not saying this to scare you, but it just, it will never go away. So you're going to have a slightly harder time in the future. Maintaining weight loss, not saying it's not going to happen, because many people have gone through this and have been perfectly successful at the other side. Hormones, right? We know that the metabolic adaptation also affects the or dieting and being in a deficit affects your hormones that regulate Well, everything but especially your appetite and your fat storage. So leptin, ghrelin, insulin, cortisol right? Leptin goes down, because the fat cells are saying that we're shrinking we don't have as much energy so please, you need to eat tells your brain you need to eat so your hunger goes up and not also potentially leads to overeating. Ghrelin, which is the hunger hormone also goes up. All important things to understand. So we have a common theme here, and it has to do with you've, you've done something in an extreme, and now your body wants to fight back, and you're kind of going to pay for it. If you you know, continue down that road. During weight loss, if you are not strength training, you are going to lose muscle period, and it could be very high, it could be as high as half, half of the tissue you lose could be muscle, I want to iterate this fact, very clearly, if you lose 20 pounds, 10 of those could be muscle, then when you gain the 20 pounds back, almost 20 of them are fat, what have you just done, you've worsened your body fat percentage, and that muscle never comes back, unless you do start strength training to build the muscle back, which is a lot harder than then then manipulating fat, okay. So then when you gain the weight, you gain fat, when you lose, you lose muscle over and over again. And this shifts your body composition in the negative direction. Okay. According to a literature review by men at all, in 2007, the majority, the vast majority of people regain their weight within five years of their initial loss. And that's a statistic I was mentioned before, I think it's around 95%, whatever it is, it's extremely high. So that leads us to what do we do about it, and it really comes down to it comes down to several things. But the two most important are going to be strength, train, strength training, and protein intake, it really does come down to those two, those comprise 90% of it. You know, the other habits, we're going to talk about support your health, they support your ability to do these things. They support adherence. But strength training and protein are the two most important so why strength training, it provides a muscle building stimulus. You're a human being walking on this earth. This is what I the way I like to look at it, I'm walking around here, I am recording this right before I go in for surgery. And I know how important strength training is. And one of the reasons I wanted to record this episode is because I have, I'm not going to be able to give myself that stimulus for the next few weeks while I'm recovering. Although I'm going to try to find creative ways to do it regardless around the you know, outside of the affected shoulder, which is where I'm having the surgery, see if I can work out other muscles on my body. But I'm not going to have that I'm really going to miss that because I know how valued is as a human being to be strong and capable, to be able to move things around and be able to help people to get off your seat, to be active to play with your kids to do all the things that we want to do all the way into old age, you know, to the day we die, we want to be strong. And we also know that strength and muscle are associated with countless health effects, you know positive correlations with health. Muscle is medicine. It's a sink for glucose, it burns more calories on and on and on. But for the purposes of body fat overshooting, why do we care about strength training, it's simply because as you are losing weight, sending a signal to your body that muscles important means your body is going to shuttled resources like protein toward rebuilding that lean tissue. Instead of instead of allowing it to atrophy. It's kind of the way I like to put it. So a sedentary person who is not strength training, they go on a diet, they have fewer calories coming in, well, your body has a few different options, it can say, Well, I'm gonna go ahead and rebuild your muscle tissue. But now I'm lacking calories for all these other things like my hormones, no, it's not going to do that. It's gonna say you're not using that muscle and that's very metabolically expensive, we're gonna let that atrophy and that's fewer calories now that we have to use from the food coming in for that the rest can then go for toward the you know, hormones and other metabolic processes. That's awful. That's awful. That means you're just like wasting away your muscles every time you lose weight when you're not strength training. So the remedy to that is to strength train, to minimize metabolic slowdown, and all the other benefits that come with that, okay, and then when you gain weight, of course, you want to be strength training as well because now you're gonna gain a significant portion of that as muscle. So you're doing exactly the opposite of body fat overshooting. And that is the whole point. The whole point is that you want to lift heavy weights, progressive overload, heavier and heavier over time. So your body continues to adapt and wants to hold on to that very expensive muscle tissue. And then you become a fat burning calorie inefficient machine which is exactly what we want.
14:34
That's a Philippe an awfully for a long time and know how passionate he is about healthy eating and body strength. And that's why I'm choosing to be my coach. I was no stranger to a dieting and body training. But I've always struggled to do it sustainably really helped me prioritize my goals with evidence based recommendations on not over stressing my body and not feeling like I'm starving. In six months I lost 40 Five pounds without drastically changing the foods I enjoy. Now I have a more balanced diet, I weight train consistently. And most importantly, I do it sustainably if a scientifically sound, healthy diet and a Langstrom body is what you're looking for. Philip Pape is your guy
Philip Pape 15:19
if you can't train, so this is my example where I'm going to have surgery rehab, I would still want to walk a lot, keep my energy flux high, keep my protein high, you know, eat at maintenance, and then do as many other forms of activities, I'm reasonably able to, to tell my muscles that they're important and that I love them. Okay, so the other thing is protein intake should be obvious. If you follow my stuff at all. Or if you care about strength training, that protein kind of goes along for the ride. But guess what, even if you're not strength training, even if you're sedentary, and I don't encourage anybody to be sedentary, but still, having high, much higher protein is going to be more beneficial than not, it's still going to preserve lean mass, during weight loss, it's still going to help you even maybe build a tiny bit of muscle during weight gain, even if you're sedentary, but we don't want to be sedentary, we want to be strength training, we combine that with a sufficient intake of protein, anywhere from point, you know, point eight to 1.2 grams per pound, right? More is better during fat loss. But it's also harder because you only have so many calories to work with. So I'm okay with being flexible, right, that's the whole point here is being flexible within that range. And by doing that, when you lose that 20 pounds, something like you know, 1819 of it will probably be muscle fat for for at least a newer lifter. And oddly, not oddly, but interestingly, if you're brand new to lifting, you can have some of that body recomp we talk about, even potentially, while you're losing weight, not much, but you might, the point is you're not going to lose a bunch of muscle. And that's what we're trying to avoid. When you recover your weight when you're coming back out of a diet or when you're gaining weight intentionally. Or even when you're at maintenance, you want to be lifting as well, of course, because that's going to help you build muscle and reduce fat accumulation. All right, there are plenty of diet, there are plenty of studies out there, that show that a high protein diet has is really supportive of weight management and body composition for a number of reasons. The big reasons we like to talk about are number one, it's helps with fullness more than the other macros. Number two, I like to talk about protein in the context of the grocery store, when you go shop for food. And I if I tell you, you need a lot of protein, go shop for your groceries for meal prep, you're going to have to stick to the outside of the grocery store. For the most part, we're talking animals and plant sources, you know, meats, dairy, eggs, grains, beans, all those things, because it's very hard to find a lot of protein in processed foods. I mean, yeah, you could eat protein bars all day, nobody's going to do that. And so a high protein diet tends to crowd out less probably overly processed foods, which is nice. It's a nice side effect. And then what's the other thing, it also has a slightly higher thermic effect of feeding. So it costs a little more to digest than the others. It's a minor effect, but it's nice to know. Okay, so how do you get enough protein that's a whole topic in and of itself. But it really comes down to meal planning, right meal timing, so having enough meals to get enough protein, something like four or five for most people, and then planning ahead. And the way I like to do that is whatever food logging app you're using, in my case, it's macro factor. I will have my clients look to previous successful day and a previous maybe not as successful day and diagnose them and say, Okay, on a successful day, here's how I got my protein, right, I made sure to have it every time or I made sure to have protein for breakfast, which on the less successful day, maybe I skipped it. On the less successful day I only ate three times instead of four or five, right? Little little things like that. And if you haven't had a success with it yet, then plan ahead for the next day and pretend that it's the quote unquote perfect day. And what would that look like? Right? And then the to go along with this you have to have a good understanding of all the different foods that are high in protein. And beyond the obvious of the meats, eggs, dairy, it's okay, when we take dairy. What are the options for dairy? Well, if you had something like cottage cheese, you could have full fat cottage cheese, we could also have 2% cottage cheese and when you look at the macros they they're different ratios. So that's just my practical tips on on protein intake. Um, so when we put all this together, we also have to consider the fact that when people want to go on a diet when they want to lose fat, lose weight go into deficit, we have to have a sustainable approach here. Okay. And it starts with understanding the evidence supported range of rate or loss and I just Want to remind everyone of that? Okay, when you crashed, I did that one time on on the carnivore diet and lost 40 pounds in two months. That's not necessarily good thing. For several reasons, one, it probably led to some level of body fat overshooting because it was too fast for you just lost some muscle and then you gain some fat. And number two, it's not sustainable. Like those are the big reasons. So the evidence says that if you want to lose fat and minimize muscle loss, during fat loss, you want to lose between a quarter to 1% of your body weight per week. So 1% of your body weight because weight is the max, okay, unless other than corner cases, like athletes who are very lean, or people who are doing mini cuts or into bodybuilding, things like that, that is the max you want to go. So if you weighed 200 pounds, no more than two pounds a week, if you go more than that you're going to risk losing muscle. Similarly, when you gain weight, you want to go between, say, point one and a quarter percent a week, or you risk gaining more fat. Now that is a little bit less of a problem. Because if assuming you're doing this, for the purposes of building muscle and your strength training, if you want to push it a little harder at the risk of getting more fat, because you might be a high responder to muscle, you know, that's your choice to make knowing that you'll just have a little extra fat to lose in the in the fat loss phase later on. But when you're doing all the things, that's okay, you know, you're in control of that, and you can do that. So, you know, it really depends on individual preferences and what you're going for. So being within the evidence supported range is going to avoid this problem. Having a high protein of you know, point A to 1.2 grams per pound. Now this number may sound different than another range, I've used often, which is point seven to 1.7 to one is like the the range most people want to be within most of the time, the point eight to 1.2 is more what I recommend, and 1.2 is more when you're losing fat, if you really want to hold on to that muscle, that's going to be hard for people that don't have a lot of calories to work with. So around one or even as low as point eight is fine. Okay, then heavy lifting heavy lifting three to five days a week period, we got to lift heavy with progressive overload. You know, barbells are your friend in this in this regard. But if you haven't gotten up to barbells, yet, you don't have them what have you, and you're working your way there. You know, dumbbells and machines and even bands and bodyweight could work a lot of variety. But eventually you got to work your way up to a much heavier loads, which generally requires barbells cardio, okay, I didn't address it yet. But we want to use cardio. Strategically, cardio is great for heart health, and a little bit of extra calorie burn. But it shouldn't be the main way that you lose fat. That's what strength training is for and manipulating your diet, cardio should be used very strategically in a very limited way for its intended purpose. And that isn't to lose fat, but that is for heart health, for overall athleticism, if you will, and also for a little bit of extra expenditure, if you need it. Okay, tracking and measuring as much as you can, will be helpful here.
Philip Pape 23:09
So not just your scale weight, but also your body circumference measurements, your strength, right, because if you're losing fat, we want to make sure we're not losing our gains in the gym. Too too quickly, at least sometimes you'll plateau or you'll regress a little bit just inevitably. But we don't want it to drop off too much. So we want to track and measure what as much as we're able to, to be able to adjust. Be creative, right? have backup plans ready to go things like refeeds and diet breaks, right? You don't have to do everything 100% All the way exactly day to day like you originally planned the plan can change but have a plan for how your plan changes is my point always have that backup plan ready to go. Don't artificially restrict by now you should know this that like when we talk about flexible dieting, we are not talking about good and bad foods, clean, dirty foods. We're not talking about cutting out carbs. We're not about any of that. Okay, we are talking about taking a choice based additive nutritional approach, where you add in the things you need to serve your goals while still enjoying your lifestyle. Okay, and that's why we use flexible dieting and track things like calories and macros because those are nice targets we can aim for, but still choose the foods we want to choose including the indulgences that we occasionally enjoy. Last thing, reach out for help. This could be someone close to you that you live with family or friend who's supportive. It could be a community like our Facebook group, please check that out because we have a lot of great folks who are constantly chiming in with really helpful advice for people who have questions. I do a weekly live where I asked your answer your specific questions. We do trainings all the time that are free it's totally free Wits & Weights Facebook group, you can go in and definitely you know level up your progress that way or get a coach definitely something I do I help people all the time, get through this process very effectively, very efficiently very easily, with as few mistakes as possible. Because I've been there done that, and I can help you along the way. All of those are great ideas. To recap, body fat, overshooting is important to understand potentially the most important thing to understand because of its impact on your body composition and your health. Without a muscle building signal or sufficient protein, you will lose muscle during weight loss, and you will gain mostly fat during weight gain. We want to do the opposite by lifting, eating your protein, losing and gaining at an appropriate rate and doing all of this in a sustainable way based on your preferences and lifestyle. And if you need help developing a more personalized strategy, based on what we talked about today, you know how to reach me, click the link in my show notes. For a free results breakthrough session. This is a free 30 minute call with me, where we map out exactly how to get where you want to go with all the steps to get there. I don't hide any information from you. I'm all about education. And I don't do any selling on this call. So click the link in my show notes. Let's figure this out together. Look for the results breakthrough session the free call next week for episode 89. It's an interview with Ryan Peebles where we talk about lower back pain, how to reverse it through movement, how to recover from lower back pain injuries, prevent them and improve your back health. Whatever app that you are using right now to listen to this podcast. Please pause and make sure to follow or subscribe to Wits & Weights, this would be doing me a huge favor, you will first of all by subscribing you're not going to miss future episodes they'll download automatically, and it actually helps us in the rankings. Okay, reviews are great. I love reviews. But following and subscribing actually helps us in the rankings so people can more easily find the show. Alright, I hope you enjoyed learning about body fat overshooting today. And as always, stay strong. And I'll talk to you next time here on the Wits & Weights podcast. Thank you for tuning in to another episode of Wits & Weights. If you found value in today's episode, and know someone else who's looking to level up their Wits & Weights, please take a moment to share this episode with them. And make sure to hit the Follow button in your podcast platform right now to catch the next episode. Until then, stay strong
Ep 87: How to Achieve Anything in Fitness and Life by Leaning Into the Future with Ashton Levarek
Today we're diving into the power of leaning into the future, embracing your future self, and becoming an alpha in order to win in life with my guest, Ashton Levarek. Ashton will reveal the importance of reframing our memories and interpretations, using positive visualization, and how to measure progress toward becoming our ideal selves. We’ll also explore the concept of being an alpha and its impact on our lives.
Today we're diving into the power of leaning into the future, embracing your future self, and becoming an alpha in order to win in life with my guest, Ashton Levarek.
Ashton will reveal the importance of reframing our memories and interpretations, using positive visualization, and how to measure progress toward becoming our ideal selves. We’ll also explore the concept of being an alpha and its impact on our lives.
Ashton is a retired Air Force Special Warfare Pararescue Jumper with over 14 combat deployments and has a bachelor’s degree in Sports, Health, and Science. He is a managing partner for Valkere Investment Group and has over $90 million in real estate under management. He also hosts The Art of Winning Podcast.
Ashton is passionate about living his best life and helping others do the same, and providing a financial platform that allows people the freedom to pursue their true passions and full potential.
__________
Book a FREE 30-minute call with Philip here.
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Today you’ll learn all about:
[2:31] Ashton's past experiences and how they shaped his approach to winning in life
[6:40] The problem of living in the past and how it can hold us back from making progress
[10:25] The value of our past experiences and how they can help us improve and grow
[14:20] Measuring and tracking progress towards becoming our future self and adjusting strategies as needed
[18:55] High performers who identify with their future selves and constantly strive for personal growth
[26:56] Lisa credits Philip's coaching for her 17-lb weight loss and gives him a grateful shout-out
[27:40] Reframing interpretations of memories and their significance to our present selves
[31:20] Principles for sustainable and long-lasting personal growth
[32:40] Developing mental resilience when faced with failures
[35:01] Utilizing visualization techniques to counteract negative thoughts and envision a better reality
[42:10] Approaches to talking to and engaging with our future selves
[47:17] Identifying and addressing the gaps between our present and future selves
[52:55] Being an alpha and its importance in living a fulfilling life
[55:05] What question did Ashton wish Philip asked
[56:51] Where can we learn more about Ashton
[57:28] Outro
Episode resources:
Ashton's website: www.valkeregroup.com
FREE 30-minute results breakthrough session with Philip ⬇️
https://witsandweights.com/free-call
Learn about 1-on-1 coaching ⬇️
https://witsandweights.com/coaching
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Email: philip@witsandweights.com
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Transcript
Ashton Levarek 00:00
So that's what I'm saying. So if you can be conscious about what you're priming your mind with, and this just goes back to what do you want, I want to be happy. I want to be wealthy. I want to feel good. I want to have love, you're gonna find that you're gonna find that in the people. You're gonna walk through a crowd of negative people and only find the good one happy person.
Philip Pape 00:17
Welcome to the Wits & Weights podcast. I'm your host, Philip pape, and this twice a week podcast is dedicated to helping you achieve physical self mastery by getting stronger. Optimizing your nutrition and upgrading your body composition will uncover science backed strategies for movement, metabolism, muscle and mindset with a skeptical eye on the fitness industry, so you can look and feel your absolute best. Let's dive right in. Wits & Weights community Welcome to another episode of the Wits & Weights Podcast. Today we're diving into the power of leaning into the future, embracing your future self and becoming an alpha in order to win in life with my guest, Ashton love Eric Ashton will reveal the importance of reframing our memories and interpretations using positive visualization, and how we can measure progress toward becoming our ideal selves. We'll also explore the concept of being an alpha and the impact it can have on our lives and those around us. So if you're feeling stuck in the past, if you're ready to far exceed what you thought possible into the future, get ready to challenge your thinking and take action. Ashton is a retired Air Force Special Warfare pair rescue jumper with over 14 combat deployments and has a bachelor's degree in sports Health and Science. Along with his brother Ashton is a fund manager with over 90 million in real estate under management is managing partner for Valkyrie investment group. As well as the host of The Art of winning podcast, which I had the honor of being on recently, from serving in combat to surfing around the world from traveling with his family to helping others reach their full potential. Ashton is passionate about living his best life, as well as helping others do the same. Thus, he is a strong believer and building that financial platform that allows people the freedom to pursue their true passions and to explore our full potential. Ashton, man, welcome to the show.
Ashton Levarek 02:07
Thank you so much. That was awesome intro. I appreciate it.
Philip Pape 02:11
Well deserved, man. Yeah, we want to set you up for the audience. They know who you are. And kind of digging into that a little bit. Combat in the Air Force, entrepreneurship, podcasting, you've definitely had your share of high pressure, maybe high stress situations. And ironically, we're gonna get into how our past potentially holds us back. But how has your past your experience in the military and beyond shaped your approach to winning in life?
Ashton Levarek 02:37
Yeah, um, you know, I've always been that kind of that guy that wanted to be challenged. I always look for the challenge. I was the first guy that anytime we were snowboarding, I was the first guy to jump anytime, you know, off the cliff or whatever, we're when we're swimming, same thing. Like, I was always, I don't I'm not sure why that happened. Maybe it was because I had, I was the firstborn. And I'm very competitive. And I always trying to get back in the spotlight. That's what child psychology tells you, right?
Philip Pape 03:08
Never know why we do these things. It wasn't jumping out of parachutes. And I was the firstborn. So who knows?
Ashton Levarek 03:13
Yeah, I don't know. I mean, that's what I've heard. But anyway, that's, that's kind of how it started. And I was just never into school. When I was in school, and it was kind of like a, you know, what's the next adventure because I know, I'm not gonna go to college. This is not, it's just not working. I barely, it wasn't that I was bad at school wasn't that I was not smart. It was just, I was not motivated to go continue classes. And I wanted to be challenged. And so going in the Air Force, the military. It kind of just seemed natural for me, right. And so that's how I went into that. And then, you know, you kind of get into you build up that momentum in your life, right. And I think that's important too. Because there's that saying, you know, be careful where you're headed, you're likely to end up where you're going. And if you see, you know, these these things come up over and over and you don't like it, man, that's your sign. And you change your mind, change your body, change your lifestyle, whatever to get what you want out of life. And I actually really enjoyed where I was going. And so it made sense to me. I just kept pushing on and you know, I don't know if you want, like, I'm not trying to get metaphysical but things happened. And it just kept leading me on this bigger and bigger adventure, both into business as well as in the military.
Philip Pape 04:29
So yeah, man, we can nerd out on metaphysics on philosophy, whatever you want here. I love it all. And I always tell people I self select my audience, they don't like it. They tune out if they do they keep following so I mean, you said something interesting there that Be careful where you're headed, right? You might not like when you're going and oh, man, there's a lot there. Right because it also implies that there's a lot of people probably just sitting on their ass complacent with life. And they if they really just took a moment to think about it, they would know where this is going or maybe not go going anywhere, let's be honest. Yeah. And what would you say to that person or our what kind of exercise to kind of, you know, give you that spark so that you can make that change?
Ashton Levarek 05:11
I heard a quote once and I think it's great. I'm gonna butcher it, but it's like, if nothing could go wrong. What would you like your life to be? You know, where would you like to end up? There's another one I heard Joe Rogan. This one's even even better, I think is if your life was a movie, and you were the main character in that movie, you were the hero of that movie. What would your hero do? Right, go do that. Right. And I tell people all the time, when we have these conversations, I'm just like, check us on here.
Philip Pape 05:41
You go for it. I'll check them explicit box. I'll go.
Ashton Levarek 05:45
I like, here's and I like to cuss because I think it adds drama to it. Like, what the fuck do you want out of life? Like, what do you really want? Right? As Jordan Peterson says, like, this life is gonna kill you. One way or another? It's gonna get you. So what are you waiting for? Go after it. You know? For sure.
Philip Pape 06:02
Yeah, yeah, we were we were talking about my friend Carl. offline. And he's he he also says something similar that you know what you're not doing? Like, what is it? You're not doing that? You know, you need to do? It's kind of related to that. Yeah. So okay, so we had this conversation by email about, and also you covered it in the podcast episode that came out the day we're recording this. So this is May 12. So folks, check out Ashton's podcast and go look at that episode, how living in the past can hold us back, right? How can hold us back from making progress in life, that we often say our current cells are the culmination of our experiences. But here's, here's what you said in the email to me, quote, these experiences that we rely on to tell us who we are. And what we are capable, capable of only exists as memories in our mind, we can see that our present selves is limited by our interpretation of our memories of the past. If we got amnesia today and could not remember our past, would we no longer be scared of spiders apprehensive when it comes to making huge financial decisions, joining the gym, etc. So let's dig into that a bit. Why is this a problem? Like why why don't we want that context of the past? Or is it really just the asymmetrical part of living in the past? The negatives of the past?
Ashton Levarek 07:14
Yeah, I think it is your interpretation, right? Because the past and the future, both just exist in your mind, I don't care where you are in your life. But for some reason, we give a lot more weight to what happened to us in the past than we do to what could happen in the future. Right. And we make decisions off that, oh, I can never do that. I can never do that. I'm not like that guy. Well, you could be like that, right? You could, I could never make that much money, I could never lose that much weight, I can never, you know, get that job. Like we have the subconscious. It's the script. For our mind, it's the script for our life even. And we don't even know it. Because we, for some reason, we slip out of we talk to ourselves, in our mind, but we don't even consciously we're not even conscious of that at times, and it becomes so repetitive. That you just take it as a fact. But as wise people have often said like a belief is just a thought you keep thinking and you can change beliefs, these can be changed. And so what I'm kind of what I was alluding to, in that that email when when I was discussing that, and then of course on the podcast, who is just like, Well, for one, why do we wait, you know, give so much weight to what happened in the past, when there's so much more potential in the future, you may not be able to change the past, but you can change your interpretation. So they say there's two types of mindsets, right? There's a growth mindset and a fixed mindset. A growth mindset says I can learn from this. The fixed mindset says this is that's all it'll ever be. You can you see those people? They tell you their story over and over? Oh, yeah, it was terrible. I lost all my money. And that's why I would never do that. Like I'm in real estate invest in real estate. So I hear that all the time. Like, oh, yeah, 2008 was terrible. I would never buy real estate. Like, you know, how many millionaires were created in 2008? Because they bought when everybody else was selling. So like, it's how you interpret the information. But the easiest way to get past that is to look into the future. What do you want the future to hold? And give more weight to that? Obviously, you can, if you really wanted to go to you know, like, this is how psychologists work, right? You go to a psychologist and they analyze your past all everything that's happened, you can help you reinterpret it. You can do that yourself too. But you could also just look into the future. What do I want out of life? And if others have done it, why can't I?
Philip Pape 09:38
Yeah, and it seems that that looking into that. So if you are kind of stuck in that pattern, that mental pattern of the past, we know that some changing how you think can be can be a step, a larger step for someone than it could be for others potentially, from what they've gone through and taking a step into the future and building that momentum then could lead to your reentry. reputation of the past. I mean, do you agree with that statement? Cuz I that's what I'm thinking. When I think for example, a skill like public speaking that I would have labeled myself in the past as an introvert, like that is the memory of what I was back then. Right? Yeah. And I it, it didn't matter because it was holding me back. But then when I said, Okay, I need to get those skills, I need to join Toastmasters, I need to put myself out there with all the things that I'm afraid of, and do them. In hindsight, I realized that I needed that, you know, understanding of who I was to push me into action to the future. So I don't know where I'm going with this from a question to ask because we said we'd get metaphysical but like, where are we on all that continuum? And maybe practically, somebody listening? Who's mired in those thoughts? What's one thing they can do right now to move that needle forward?
Ashton Levarek 10:45
Oh, yeah, no, I love that. Okay. So here's, here's something that I love this, I wish I had a whiteboard or something, but it's like you have where you are right now you have your potential for people that are watching us, it looks like a box. So you have what you think you are what you think you can do, that's one corner. And then according to what you think you can do, where you are in life, all that what you deserve, even like, because a lot of times that is part of that we don't think we are capable of or deserve that job. So we don't go after it or that person or whatever, right? Anyway, so you're in that corner, and then you take action, which leads you to the opposite corner, right? And that in that corner, you take action. And then you get the feedback. So if you drop down, you can look at a circle or a box, I like a box, because the every corner is a point, you come down to the bottom corner, it's like you take action, you learn from that action. And as you learn, you change your potential and it just keeps going around, right you change the idea of what you're capable of. You take action with that, you learn from that you adjust what you think your potential you're capable of, and it just keeps going around and around. And so where I'm going with that is when people let's say you live this life where you're actually I don't even know I don't want to, like, maybe you're in this, you're in a box right now. And you feel like there's nowhere else to go. Right? One of the coolest methods I've found is physical. Because if you take action, it changes your paradigm, right? Go to the gym, lift a couple of ways. Go for a run like these things, getting the body moving in doing something you've never done before, right? Or something harder than you've ever done before. Or more challenging in some way or another. It could be mentally it could be physically it could be emotionally, like all of a sudden you're changing your paradigm, which is that top corner we started in, that's your paradigm, right? That's your, your framework for which you approach life. And when you change that, your potential changes and you're able to take more action learn from that actually keeps going and going. I'll tell you a quick story. This was really interesting to me, my mom, a very strong lady entrepreneur, you know, when she was a flight attendant started her own business very strong. My dad and her split and she took it really hard. And something happened where she's like, Screw it, I'm just gonna go to Tahiti, her my my little brother, they went to Tahiti. And next thing you know, she's that was the first step. And then she's got her scuba diver license. Now she's diving with sharks. Now she's living this, this, I don't know, Eat, Pray, Love kind of lifestyle. We're traveling and doing these amazing things that not that her marriage was holding her back from any of that. But it shifted her mindset, like, Divorce isn't a terrible thing. And now she's living this free, amazing life where she's doing a lot of this stuff, but it was a paradigm shift of what she's capable of, you know, and, and a lot of that had to do with it. She had to take that physical step first, obviously, which opened up that door to so much more and learning and growing as a person, right.
Philip Pape 13:48
Yeah, I mean that this is ostensibly a health and fitness podcast, I liked that you went there, right? Because I just interviewed someone who talked about upward spiraling and how the science is showing us the physiological link between taking some physical action, usually about 20 minutes a day of like, medium intensity movement of some kind, in affecting your neurotransmitters, right and your nervous system. And actually then spiralling other things, improving your mood, improving energy. So like, just to link it to science a little bit. There's, there's a reality to this, but the way you framed it. So here's the way I always I always thought of it as a feedback loop. Where you get the feedback, you improve, and you keep you go to the next step. But you just amplify that with the idea that the person you are and your potential and your paradigm shifts, it gets bigger moves. And that actually makes it easier to move forward to the next thing. And when you look in the mirror like wow, I've come a long way since I started. That's awesome, man. I mean, just taking that radical action or not even radical action, a simple action that's different to get you out. Yeah.
Ashton Levarek 14:49
Yeah. And I don't even know the first step that led my mom to think I should go to ged either could have been something even small. It's just going for a hike or something. I don't know. But you know what I think is yeah, what I think is interesting though, if you look at children, children are are some of the best. You know, they give us some of the best lessons if you really watch. They don't have any apprehensions. They just see other people around them doing it, right. Because in their first few years of life, it's just grown up. And they're like these guys are walking. Which imagine the paradigm shift. Yeah, that's like a thing hanging out with birds and be like, Man, they're flying. And I should do that. Yeah. And they, the kids do that, right? Like, they're hanging out with these adults. And it's just like, oh, wow, he's standing on his two feet. And I'm going to do that and they crawl around. And then eventually, they're walking. And but as we get older, we get this baggage like, oh, yeah, in high school, I wasn't good at the mile run. So I can't go run and you know, like, Don't and dumb stuff. And we hold on to it for some reason. And that, that becomes our framework for life as we move forward. So,
Philip Pape 15:55
yeah, and then that that action, you know, the phrase messy action we sometimes talk about, I think even on today's show, you mentioned the difference between being impulsive and irresponsible, like with some big financial decision, where you just take some random risk without understanding the The facts are the consequences, and actually just moving forward and not holding yourself back. So I think that's the side we're living on here, where I see this all the time. Ashran, where you take action in one area, that's easy, and you don't think much about it. But because you did that it opens up some door to take an action somewhere else and somewhere else or somewhere else. So just doing more things, and being more involved, not to the point where you're stressed out, but you know, being out there and doing stuff. Like that's the way I look at it. It's a spiral.
Ashton Levarek 16:40
Yeah, I think it's a, you know, if you can adopt that mindset that there is no such thing as failure, there's only lessons, then it becomes even easier to shift paradigm mean faster. Yeah, there's a really cool study with entrepreneurs. And I got really into this because I'm, you know, I'm in the entrepreneur space, I'm in business. But it was like 90% of all first year entrepreneurs will fail or will fail in the first year. Right. And of those, a huge majority will not try again, they'll not start another business, which is sad, but of the ones that do. It was like 90 something percent are wildly successful.
Philip Pape 17:18
Because they learned from that first experience. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. In that.
Ashton Levarek 17:22
So So then it begs the question, right? And I love this one. How many failures? Are you away from massive success from your first million from your first 10 million? You know, how many failures? Are you away from that ideal lifestyle, that body that that relationship that? Whatever you're seeking, whatever you think you want in life? Like how many failures? Are you away from it? It could be one, it could be two could be 10.
Philip Pape 17:47
But it's just the Thomas Edison thinking. Yeah, right.
Ashton Levarek 17:51
What you I bet if you even if you knew it was 100, you might be pretty excited to get your first failure. He's like, I'm on my way.
Philip Pape 17:57
Yeah, you're on your way. It's a step on the way. Yeah. Yeah, I had someone on my show recently, Adrian Moreno talking about when he was trying to learn to sell and making sales calls and had like, 27 nose in a row. And 2728 was a yes. And he's like, if I had, if I just given up at 25 or 23, or whatever, you know, you wouldn't have seen that. I mean, it's a great message to just keep going and put in the reps. Also, while learning from that, right? Yeah, just doing the same thing over and over. If you don't learn it is a failure. Yeah, I mean, podcasts, things like that, right? You can you can relate to this, where you hear the data on podcasters, just to get in the top 10% You just have to keep going pretty much like, it doesn't even have to be a good podcast, just keep making it and you're gonna be the top 10% That's how many people give up. And then you know, the next 5% It's like, you know, you sit, sit around with more listeners, and then you start to the Challenge gets higher and higher, but your paradigm has shifted where like, Okay, I got this now I'm gonna go to the next level. Yeah. Okay, so you mentioned you also mentioned Arnold Schwarzenegger in your email, which I always love referencing him just cool guy. His autobiography is great, all his movies, he's still making them. And Earth Heroes is a fun guy. And one of my favorite quotes of his is, for me, life has continuously been hungry. The meaning of life is not simply to exist to survive, but to move ahead to go up to achieve to conquer. Right, and I guess that's aligned with the idea of identifying with your future self. You were talking about how high performers and successful individuals cultivate that mindset. Do you have examples that you'd like to share about that stories of, of high performers?
Ashton Levarek 19:38
Yeah, so you know, being in I'll tell you right now being in special operations, you get to work with a lot of cool people. We're talking people that are super motivated, super capable. But they also bring in a lot of different trainers and athletic performer you know, athletes and stuff to get their experience and help the it's become your essentially we used to joke Talk about it. We're we're professional athletes and special operations. It's just a little bit different. We're going overseas instead. Because you do you get a lot of that training, the psychological, the mental. And of course, the physical nowadays, he didn't used to be like that. But it is now and it's pretty cool. But, you know, we had some Olympic psychologists like Pete guys, that coach Olympians, and one of the things they were huge on was visualizations, which I thought was really interesting. And so they would have us do visualization reps. So for example, when we go to the range, you're you're training for every contingency when you're at the range shooting, right? So shooting with by yourself shooting with your team, maybe you have a malfunction, you pull your pistol, all that stuff. So you'd have guys do that. And then they would have us visualize it, some guys visualize it, and some guys just do it and you know, the speed at which you learn and adapt and, and become that person you're trying to become that very fast, very smooth. shooter was almost the same with the visualization and the the people that physically trained to write,
Philip Pape 21:13
Oh, okay. Okay. You're saying without having actually physically trained it, you've now gotten yourself to that level.
Ashton Levarek 21:19
And so that's what you're doing. You're projecting yourself into the future. You're, you're, you're visualizing what it would look like if you did it perfectly. Right. And, and they even man, I love Arnold Schwarzenegger, because he talks about this. The funny thing is, he used to think he used to imagine his muscles growing. Right? Which,
Philip Pape 21:38
from a pretty young age to which Yeah,
Ashton Levarek 21:41
and it's interesting, because you're starting to see the science back this up, right? Yeah, they did a study, it was like, they did just hand strength. They did. And I can't, I wish I could quote the guys, but they did hand strength. It was like just finger strength. So they had these, like, half the group, your finger exercise, and the other half just visualize doing finger exercises. And it was almost exactly the same in finger strength growth.
Philip Pape 22:06
That's insane, man. Yeah, that is insane.
Ashton Levarek 22:07
It is insane. Because, like how,
Philip Pape 22:10
how many? How often can I go to the gym and lift weights in my brain, you know?
Ashton Levarek 22:14
Well, so I don't know if you've listened to or have ever heard of Joe Dispenza. But I'm a huge fan of his stuff. He talks a lot about this stuff. how the body responds to thinking it's response to words, there's lots, there's some amazing studies that back this up. spontaneous remission, people are getting healed without, you know, when they should be dying. And then other people other things like the study where they took the water and they wrote bad words on it, and then good words on different water and like what the molecular structure looked like when they did that, like, word carries vibration, vibration, is what you are made up of every electron, a neutron proton in your body is a vibrating molecule, right? It's a vibrating energy. And sound and thought are energy. And so what when you think in a certain way, when you talk in a certain way, you are arranging your vibration in some some way, shape or form, right. And I think the more emotion that he says, the more that motion is with that, and goes with those words that goes with those thoughts, the faster the manifestation in the body. And so whether it's sickness, or happiness, or healing, or growth, or whatever that may be, right. So, I mean, the there, you want to talk metaphysical, like quantum physics is finding that our physical world responds to thought. I mean, that's as simple as it can get. And you are a lot more powerful than you think you are.
Philip Pape 23:47
Yeah, I'm open minded to this stuff, in the sense that I'm very rational and scientific about things. But I also understand there, maybe 95% of phenomena in existence, we don't understand and can't explain yet. And one day, in my mind, rational mind, we wouldn't be able to explain it. That's kind of the way I think of it, as opposed to just an unexplainable thing. If you think about lifting strength training, we know a lot. We know a lot about the body and its adaptation to stress on it, right. But we still don't quite know how, like, we really don't know, we, we can say this happens. And this happens. And this happens, right? Yeah. But, but we can't, you know, if we knew exactly how it worked, we would know to tell everybody exactly to do this. And we don't we just know, everybody's tried these things. This subset of those things has worked. So do those things. And there's some variants. And when you're talking about thought, I'm like, okay, when you when you adapt, and you get bigger muscles, for example, it's happening during your sleep, it's happening after the fact with your body responding to who knows, you know, chemicals, neural signals, muscle fibers, everything been activated, because you put the load on your back, but then that's happening independent of that. So like if you could think or do something to instigate all those things now There might be 50 things going on that I don't know of a mental exercise anybody's found yet that could like make you jacked without lifting weights. Yeah, but maybe one day. So that's Joe Dispenza. Is he? Is that that like the resource for practically learning how to try some of these things?
Ashton Levarek 25:17
Yes, some really amazing videos. He's got some really good books, the first book that comes to mind is you are the placebo. Okay. And he just talks about, a lot of that is about the placebo effect and how, I mean, I was a medic in the military and placebos work 60 to 80% of the time, which is as much if not more than most drugs, which is insane, right. And as you were talking, I just remembered another study. This one was cool, just correlating to health, nutrition. They gave I was like 100 participants, 50 of them got. Everybody got the same milkshake, but they didn't know that they told 50 of them that this was a very nutritious milkshake. And they were over there on the one side, and they told the other 50 that it was, you know, just an ice cream milkshake? Right?
Philip Pape 26:01
What they call it a slurry, don't they?
Ashton Levarek 26:04
Yeah. But the point is like, yeah, their bloods blood sugar spiked, and the people that thought it was just as a slurry or an ice cream sundae or whatever. Right? Whereas the other ones, they didn't have as much a dramatic effect. What's that about? You know?
Philip Pape 26:20
Yeah, you're right. Is that Is that the one where they tested like caught pre workout or into workout carbs? Or it's probably similar to that.
Ashton Levarek 26:26
Similar man. Definitely sounds similar. This one I heard. The one I understood was it was a shake, but
Philip Pape 26:30
okay. Yeah, no, there's a lot of weird. You're right. Placebo Effect. Of course, that's what a lot of what we're talking about is called and I'm going off on like, this complex way to describe it. But no, you're right. There's like studies where just tasting a sugar or a car. But even if you don't ingest any of it causes the effects of, you know, increased glycogen usage when your expression when you're lifting, whatever. So good stuff, man.
26:56
Hi, my name is Lisa. And I'd like to give big shout out to my nutrition coach development with his coaching, I have lost 17 pounds, he helped me identify the reason that I wanted to lose weight, and it's very simple longevity. I want to be healthy, active and independent. Until the day I die. He introduced me to this wonderful Apple macro factor, I got that part of my nutrition figured out along with that is the movement part of nutrition, there's a plan to it, and really helped me with that. The other thing he helped me with was knowing that I need to get a lot of steps in. So the more steps you have, the higher your expenditure is, and the easier it is to lose weight when it's presented to you like he presents it, it makes even more sense. And the other thing that he had was a hunker guide. And that really helped me so thank you below.
Philip Pape 27:40
What are we going next on this? So I was thinking about the how we interpret memories, because that's one thing you mentioned. And then we give them that significance with our present self. And he talked about reframing. So how do we reframe them?
Ashton Levarek 27:54
How do we reframe our memories? Yeah, yeah. Well, I think I think it's important to well, you have to be clear about what you want, right? What do you want out of life? You want to be happier? Do you want more money? Do you want a healthier body? I would also, and I said it, I gave it away. But the first thing, if you if you were to whittle down everything you want out of life, and why you want it, you will find like 99% of the time you want that thing because you think it's going to make you happier. Right? So can we focus on that first, right? And then the journey just becomes a fucking joy? Excuse my language, but it becomes a joy. Like, it's the whole process, right? So if you're looking at your memories, oh, my dad beat me. Alright. I'm gonna, I'll tell you like, that's a real thing. For me. That was something I grew up with. But I look at that now. And I'm like, Man, when I went to boot camp, I was, they were yelling in my face, it did nothing to me, because of how my father was so disciplinary. And I was it had no effect on me. So for me, that's a positive thing, right? Because I choose to interpret as a positive thing. Because I choose That's happiness, right? You want to be happy? So if you believe let's be let's have fun here for a second. If you believe Einstein said, you have to ask yourself, do you think the universe is friendly? Or it's unfriendly? Right? And that's really what it is. Right? Does the universe want the best for you? And I would argue it does. Because you let's say you get a cut in your arm. It heals on its own. Yeah, you know, science is going to explain all this. And I get that and I get how it works. What it does heal it on its own. But when you are depressed, and there's high stress, it doesn't it's slower, right? You get sick faster, like so. It does start in the mind. It starts with how you interpret the scenario, right? And it's and so whatever happened in the past, how you interpret that's going to affect everything, obviously, but also how you how you are presently how you choose to interpret that past can change. Because, again, the past only exists in your head. And so I think it's very important to get clear about what you want, I want to be happy, I want to be healthy, I want to be a monster in the gym, I want to be a fucking millionaire, like, these are the things I want, you know. And so as you lean into that what you want, the universe will provide the answers. universe God, Spirit source, whatever you want to call it, I don't care. Because we can talk about like the I love this topic to the reticulating activating system in the brain, you know, essentially, whatever you're looking for, whatever, whatever you're looking for in life, your eyes will find and your ears will hear, you know, you'll be in a crowd. And if you're focused on making more money, you will find you will hear somebody talking about making money and you'll automatically gravitate to them. Or if you're someone who's very depressed, and in, you know, wherever you are, you're going to find something to be depressed about. So it really comes with that intention. What do I want out of life? Right? Do I want it to be easy to I want it to be hard to like, do I want to be challenged? Do I want to have fun? Do I want this to be fun? Because once you do that you will find the path? You know, I looked for challenges in my life when I was young, and I went down that road, you know, like you, you will run into it.
Philip Pape 31:24
Yeah. And do you? Do you find that? When you do that enough? You start to not really ever interpret things negative not not ever enough. Nothing's never but it elevates your whole persona just in exists, you know, on this plane of existence, period, because now you're just always, because you've reinforced the fact that when you look for things, you find them, you're gonna be always looking for those positive things. Things will happen to you. But still, yeah,
Ashton Levarek 31:52
yeah. And I think when you listen to some of these, when I started focused on making money, like when I started, I started focusing on that I joined a couple these masterminds, which I forgot to mention, like, that's another way to shift your paradigm. You want to be something else go be around people that are doing Oh, yeah. You know? Yeah, yes, you won't be the smallest fish in the pond, and you will learn very fast, that'll shift you. You're like, man, these guys are buying islands, like some of these guys, like they're trying to buy and sell islands. And I'm like, that's insane. I'm coming from a blue collar background military, you know, but like, it shifts your paradigm of what's possible. I didn't know you could finance an island. You know what I mean? So, so like that. It's a paradigm shift, right? But I'm kind of getting off track. Shoot, where was I going with that?
Philip Pape 32:41
No, it's all good. We can we can play with that. Because the other thing that comes to mind there is how do you know? How do you know what what the right thing to chase is? When you're in that mindset? So somebody listening is like, Alright, I'm gonna take control of my health. You know, I've got to be there for my kids. For my family. I want to live long life, blah, blah, blah. And it could be the deepest purpose ever. And they've been fed so much misinformation for years and haven't you know, like, if they just went out and took action, they'd stumble into another program that's not gonna stumble with another huckster. You know what I mean? So where are you? How do you deal with that?
Ashton Levarek 33:16
Yeah, that's, that is a good question. And you know, what I think it is, you know, it goes back to that. I will find what I'm seeking, you may run into a wall a couple of times, but you're gonna find it, you know, when you listen to like, these highly successful people, like, let's say Oprah, or Walt Disney, or Steve Jobs, or Henry Ford, or like they did, they ran into door into wall after wall after wall. But they were so intense, so focused on where they wanted to go what they wanted to do, that it worked out, right. Yeah. Like, Oprah Winfrey was like, fired. They said she could never be on TV. Look at her now, you know, like, but she needed to be fired to learn to become Oprah Winfrey, she is today, right?
Philip Pape 34:00
Yeah, yeah. No, that no, you're hitting it on the head. Because when I think of clients who, you know, I work, mostly people who are over 30. So they've had a lot of women who've died many times they've done many things. And I'm really thrilled when they find me, because I know I'm going to help them and do it the right way. And they don't quite know that yet. Right. This is just another attempt. Like you said, it's another attempt along the way of your counter failures, hoping that this won't be the failure. But because you've done it so many times you have all this experience and education of what didn't work in the past, which goes back to like the past is important from that perspective, but it's framing. So yeah, that's a great point that and here's the other thing from personal experience when I finally figured stuff out back in around 2020. Like for my health journey, it was because I had time during the pandemic to pour everything into learning and joining groups and listening to podcasts and reading and it was because of the just sheer exposure that I finally could find things that made sense. And that's again, reps and quantity just getting out there and doing it. Do you agree or what do you think about that? Yeah,
Ashton Levarek 35:03
no, I absolutely agree. And you know, what I think is interesting, the more you think, and it's kind of go back goes back to Einstein's theory or question he asked about the universe. It also goes back to Nikola Tesla, he says the same thing. You know, if you think the universe is friendly, then you must have faith in it being friendly, right? And you will find what, and when you have that faith, it's all of a sudden, it's like, okay, well, I'm here for a reason. Like, I brought myself here, but that it because I wanted something. And this is part of my journey. And it's almost like, when you go to sleep, when you have a meal, you don't go, oh, man, I hope I digest this food. You know, most of us don't, right? Like you just trust in your body, which is a really cool thing. It's really cool. We trust that our heart is going to be that our lungs are going to absorb oxygen, that we're going to metabolize the nutrients, right. There's this trust. But imagine, I mean, if the placebo effect is as as powerful as you think, what if all of a sudden you started to distrust your body? You know, like, I don't know what would happen. I don't know what would happen. But I think when you start to trust the process of your life, and I'm not saying you need to believe in God, I'm not saying I'm saying you're actually more powerful than you think I'm just That's all I'm saying. When you believe in it, I think it unfolds the way you ask, right? But a lot of us, we get in this weird hamster wheel where we like, yeah, I want to end up over there. But I don't know how it's gonna happen. And because you don't know how it's gonna happen, you don't believe in it. So it happens a lot slower and stuff. Yeah. Right. And that's even proof to you. That it's not working. But I think it does. We do. And it's the same. You go to the gym, right? You have faith, like, okay, these guys said, If I do you know, this much cardio, this was weightlifting, if I eat this way, if I get this much sleep, they trust you because you're an authority, and that that's where their trust come from, for sometimes it has to start there. But imagine like, if you were a kid, if you just had faith? Well, they're all doing it. I can do it.
Philip Pape 37:06
And then yeah, yeah. And what I want to separate for people in what you just said is, like the gym example. There are people who they go and they there's, there's two sides of this, they they take a philosophy or program or idea, they go apply it, but then they're not consistent than they don't get results and in blame, whatever it was, even if it might have worked, then there's people who take something that's not effective, apply it consistently, and it doesn't work. And I think there's where a lot of the value is, right? Because they, they put in the reps, they took the steps, and then it didn't work. So now you've got that feedback. Okay, cross that off the list and move to the next thing. Whereas the people over here, you can't suss out, which were the problem is, I mean, you can once you realize they're not being consistent. Yeah, you know, I mean, again, we're getting philosophical, because I'm thinking of all these things, as well as your your thought about trusting in the world. And, like you, I'm very rational, but I have seen it time and again, where just believe that that people are good by nature, right? Because I think 99.9% People are good by nature. That's what I've seen. And I and I know social media can like really sour that perception of humanity. But then you got to you got to hang out in the right places, you know, you have to stay away from things. I mean, it's your choice, you can stay away from where the poison people are, and focus elsewhere. You know, like, my Facebook community is like that. I don't moderate it. I don't, you know, I just trust that everybody's gonna be good. And if you had a bad apple, it comes up fine. But yeah, it's very positive man, skits stuff,
Ashton Levarek 38:38
you know, what I think is cool, too. I've considered this couple times. So if everything is okay, well, I'm not gonna go that way just yet. But social media, the algorithms that they designed social media with, or how they use them, or whatever, are exactly the way your brain works. Like you, when you see something terrible, you tend to notice more terrible things. Right? Whatever you're conscious of, you tend to see more of right. So if you shift what you're conscious of, if you make it like if you feel I'm depressed, I'm down. I don't feel like going to the gym. This is a you know, fitness podcast. So I don't feel like going to the gym. And all you do is sit around the house, you will not feel like but if you were to, I don't know, get on social media and look at all these amazing people having these amazing physiques doing these amazing things with their body. All of a sudden, you're there's it's going to shift things for you, right? And you're going to feel that that's a feeling like oh, yeah, I could do that. I should do that. And I'll tell you right now, I've been working out my whole life. I've been in sports my whole life. And I'll still like sometimes I'll put on I like CrossFit because I think they're amazing athletes, and I'll just watch like a competition. Like, I'm going to the gym. I gotta get
Philip Pape 39:54
psyched up, right? Yeah, it's strong, man. You're like, Man, I'm a weekend
Ashton Levarek 39:59
out there. Yeah, it's, yeah, it's absolutely it works. And I mean, I think that it goes holds true for anything if you're trying to build a business, but whatever. But you can use that reticulating activating system in your mind, you have to be conscious, you have to constantly, this is what I'm looking for. And let me just explain. So the reticular activating system is just you conscious, you can consciously comprehend, I think it was like, I can't remember exactly was like 100 images per second, right? pixels per second, or something like that is what they figured out. But your subconscious processes processes over 1000. And they found if you prime your mind, your or 100,000, if you prime your mind, it will pick out the things you are primed to pick out. So when they did these tests with these people, they said, okay, they had all these images showing up on a screen, and they asked them which ones the people remembered, right? And they would prime them with stuff like, Okay, before, just when they went in this is I have a feeling this is how a lot of magicians do stuff, too. But honestly, how they read your mind. Yeah, so they they prime the people with like, talking about, I don't know, doctors, nurses, hospitals, stuff like that. And then in the 100,000 images that they watch, there's a few of those. And that's the only thing that people remember. Okay. And so, so that's what I'm saying. So if you can be conscious about what you're priming your mind with, and this just goes back to what do you want, I want to be happy, I want to be wealthy, I want to feel good. I want to have love, you're going to find that. You're going to find that and the people, you're going to walk through a crowd of negative people and only find a good one happy person. That's amazing.
Philip Pape 41:35
It is yeah, it is amazing. And it gets you hyper focus, I think, yeah, right. Like you get, I think of the things that I'm really passionate about now that I may not have been in the past. And it sucks, like just kept thinking about them going after learning, learning, learning, to the point where you just, it's just your brain is like carrying you that direction. Yeah, you know, and I see it with clients, too, who have struggled their whole life. And all of a sudden, they start lifting weights and getting PRs, PRs, PRs, and they're just like, I need to learn about form, I need to learn about movement and learn about programming this and that, and it's just like cycles on itself. So
Ashton Levarek 42:05
it's a positive reinforcement loop, but it goes the other way, too. So you do have to be intentional. Yeah.
Philip Pape 42:11
So then what about you, Ashton? How do you personally do this? And how do you talk to your future self? Like, because that's one concept we talked about is like reaching out to your future self talking to him getting getting yourself to go forward? I mean, do you invite him on an imaginary podcast episode, you know, with yourself?
Ashton Levarek 42:30
I mean, that is one way. Yes. I mean, you could think of it like that. That's not recorded. I actually, I mean, I do record my the ones where I do solo is me, a lot of them. It's right before that I'm journaling or free, free thinking. But, so I got this a long time ago, and I can't remember where I got it. And then somebody put this into a book and the book is called the morning. Miracle Morning, all about your morning routine. How something right? How Elrod Oh, there you go. And so it's really an intentional way of building a habit to prime your mind to prime your body, your mind all that stuff, right. And there's, it's he calls them he uses an acronym is called savers. And I was actually doing this long before, not all of them, but a lot of them before he made the book. And I find it very effective. So it's, the first one is silence, Affirmations, Visualization, exercise, reading and scribing. So savers, sav e Rs. And essentially, what you're doing is you're you're priming your mind. So the first one is silence, you want to silence It's the first thing you're doing. When you get up in the morning, when you go to the bathroom, take a leak, drink some water, I like to drink some water because I know I get dehydrated overnight. And I sit in silence and I want to silence my mind because I know my mind. Like in Zen, they call it your monkey mind. It'll just run off with thoughts. And then and then there's nothing intentional. You're you're reacting and you're not. You're reactive to everything in your life instead of proactive and I want to be proactive. I'm trying to create a lifestyle. I'm trying to create a life A Journey. I'm trying to create that. And so I don't want my monkey mind to control my, my, the beginning of my day because that's that's, that's your primer, you know? So do silence and then the affirmation is when you after you come out of silence the affirmations is what you're talking about the podcast so you have a conversation with yourself and we don't know we're a lot of times we're not conscious that we're doing this throughout the day. But we're always having a conversation I'm hungry I'm full. I don't like this I do like that that tree looks amazing. You're thinking these things in our in your brain, right? But the affirmations piece is a huge thing. It just goes back to telling yourself having a conversation with of yourself with yourself. What you want your day to be like what you want your life to be like what do I want? Who am I? Right? Because a lot of what you do in life boils down to who you think you are and so if you want to change who you are you think you are. You can tell yourself these things. Man I'm getting you don't have to lie don't lie to yourself either because Right. Don't know when you're lying. You're like, I'm Mr. Olympia. Like, everybody's gonna You're no, you know you're not. But you can say things like, I'm on my way. I'm on my way. And it feels good to be making changes in my life. And I'm getting better at this every day. Right? Those, and that feels really good. And then the visualization, I like the visualization, one, because, yeah, you bring the actual, you bring it. And you can do vision boards. I think vision boards are really good. I think in my journal, I have the first two pages are like, my ideal house where I love surfing like all these different meals and things that represent things to me. And so when I flip on my journal, which is one of them scribing like writing, and I'm a very big fan of writing, because you get your thoughts out on paper, and now you can analyze your thoughts and put in organize them. And I'll tell you, one of my biggest problems early on was I didn't organize my thoughts. So a lot of times talking in public was very unnerving, because I would say, just come out.
Philip Pape 45:56
But anyway, thanks. Yeah. But then
Ashton Levarek 45:59
also, like, you can read inspiring stuff like these, you're priming your day. And that's the whole point, right? You're priming yourself. For what to pick up on what to focus on throughout the day, what you want to feel what you want to do have be whatever. And so yeah, I think sabers is a great way to start. You don't have to do all of them. Pick a couple that work for you. I know there's a huge craze for like cold therapy. And you know, which, again, what works for you works for you use that. And I some of these things have a lot of science backing them up.
Philip Pape 46:28
But no, no, that's true. Yeah, yeah. Do it works for you. I agree. Because yeah, people will hear this and say, All right, I'm going to do all those things starting tomorrow. And by the way, you mentioned something about cold ones, I'm gonna do that too. You know, and it's like, even with the gym, or fitness or whatever you want, there's difference in optimal and just workable, just get it done. Like if you're not doing anything right now that that's going to be 80% of the way toward where you want to be just doing something. Yeah, but these are all great. And you can pick and choose actually read that book years ago, and remember getting up at 4am to do stuff. I don't do anymore, because I know the value of sleep, and I have to kind of work it out. But it's good stuff. So if you're listening to this, check out Miracle Morning and silence Affirmations, Visualization, exercise, reading and scribing. Do some of them, do all of them, whatever works for you. All right. So I know you've accomplished a lot in life. But I sent your hunger I sent your hunger to achieve more, you know, you talked about your vision board, you want to spiral that out to I'm sure your family, your tribe, I know you've talked about the tribe, right? Customers and so on with everything you do. So what is for you the biggest gap right now between your present and future self? And what are you doing about it?
Ashton Levarek 47:39
I don't think I'll ever close that gap. So, but that's my inspiration, right? Maybe someday I'll meet that guy when I die. Which you know, and I hope I do. And that guy's like, Hey, man, good job. You did it. Yeah, I would. I would hate to get to the end and be like it and he's just like, what happened? So now I, um, how do I close that gap? I think I think that guy will always be out there developing. It's kind of like that. It's kind of like that. You want to be I want to be my biggest hero. Right. I think it's good to idolize other people. Sure. I get it. You know, but for me, it's always been about what is my potential? And I think that's there's a quote that I absolutely love by Nelson Mandela. I'm big quote, guy. I read a lot. But Nelson Mandela said, all shoot, I'm gonna butcher it. Yeah, it's basically there's no, there's no joy to be found in living a life less than the one you're capable of. Right? Yeah, yeah. It's something of that nature. But that's what it is. It's like, you have this potential. And it's kind of like that feedback loop. You You do, right. We have this potential. But we think it's limited until we take action until we learn from that and then reframes and just keeps going like that. But if you're not doing that you're not growing. Right. And one of the things I think is interesting is, you know, people talk about it like Tony Robbins, he's big motivational speaker and coach, and he says, if you're not growing, you're dying. I think he's right. You know, think about it. You look or listen to Viktor Frankl if you ever read his book on Man's Search for Meaning, when people had no longer had purpose, they died very quickly. He lived and he was in the concentration camps, obviously. So it's very accelerated. But the reason he he would give or the reason he found that people actually lived through those is because they had a purpose on the other end. So you know, I'm going to see my wife, I'm going to have another life I'm it's going to be over but when people give up on their purpose, they die very quickly. Now, that's the extreme opposite, but what I'm saying is, you know, you're alive you feel the most alive when you are growing when you're being challenged when there's slight risks, not terrible. risk. But when there's risk when there's, you know, you remember when you went to vote you the first time you saw your high school crush, and maybe they looked at you and you're about to say something like, there was that? That's
Philip Pape 50:14
your life. Exactly.
Ashton Levarek 50:15
But it's also what in my mind, is you're expanding your potential, right? And that's you growing. And that's, and that's what happens. Every time you take action, you get that feedback, you change your frame, like you're growing. And I think we have an and we you kind of put this in the intro. And I know we're getting late on time, but so I kind of like throw this in there in the last minute here. I think it's every person's duty to explore their potential. The problem I see though, is most people I mean, I can't remember the statistic is like, over 60% of Americans live paycheck to paycheck. Which means if you were to look at like Maslow's hierarchy of needs, over 60% of Americans are living in the bottom half there, they're fending for their family, they're trying to feed them, clothe them, and put a roof over their head. And that's it. And so they never get to explore their physical and maybe even their mental potential. Now, I'm not saying money is the answer, but it sure does help. Right? And so that's what that's what I think about sometimes like how do you what prevents humans from reaching their potential and exploring their potential like writing that best seller song, writing that book that changes millions of lives running for governor so you can change your econ your your social economy or your your government? Right? Like, those things are what move the needle in the advancement of humans. And so I think it's very important that people explore their potential. Making money is one of the keys to that. But
Philip Pape 51:52
I agree. Well, it's funny that you bring up money because I know that your industry and I used to be a big iron Rand fan. Not not I like her books, but I'm not gonna say I follow her philosophy, like, idealistic. Well, in I think it's her big her big Opus, right, Atlas Shrugged. The character, what's his name? DiFrancesco are the guy he makes us Who is it, he makes a whole speech about money, just Google it look up the money speech on random money speech from a look it up. And the whole thing is about money being in exchange for value, and we give it so much. We give it so much human pneus that it doesn't deserve because it's just an exchange for value. In our, in our society. We use it for that. So I'm totally on board. Of course, being an entrepreneur and everything else trying to take care of my family, I get that. So you're coming from the place of let's help more people also get that and be able to exchange more of their own value to then elevate their lives and those of others. Yeah, that's, that's the way I interpret it. So you got an ally there in that regard? Okay. All right. So, I mean, I guess, well, I was going to talk about being an alpha and all that, I think you kind of covered that a little bit. Unless there's a specific, you know, aspect to that you wanted to add?
Ashton Levarek 53:06
Um, yeah, for me, I think that's what it is, you know, as, as the leader of your family, even as a young man or young woman growing up, like, an alpha is somebody that is protecting and helping other people's grow l helping other people grow. And it's only because they're exploring their full potential. And you see this, like, we see this in the animal kingdom, like the alphas make sure that the pack is being led, being fed being cared for, right. And that's what you're doing when you become a leader in your society. When, if you're just a father, a mother, that's the alpha, right? It's gotten a bad rap over the years. Because we say alpha males are toxic, and this and that, whatever. But that's not what I'm talking about. I'm just talking about being a natural leader and, and ensuring the growth of humanity. I mean, imagine, look at let's take Elon Musk for, for example. Right? I would say that he's an alpha, he's not complete alpha because of certain things. But the way he's moving the needle in the advancement of technology in, in the world. I think it's in a good, it's good, we're moving in that direction. Whether you think it's good or bad, it doesn't matter. Like it's people are going to learn from it, and it's gonna get better and better. And, yeah, and that's what it is. And, and that's how humanity progresses. That's how, you know, that's how so many kids can eat in America now, because we've learned how to produce food and energy and, you know, becoming an alpha should be everybody's goal, in my opinion.
Philip Pape 54:32
I agree, man, I agree. And again, going back to just tying in what I'm familiar with, with my clients, a lot of times the goal is to they want to provide more for their family and they want to set a good example for their family and they feel themselves down with their health. And as you see that shift, you see it go out to their family, and you see all these winds that have nothing to do with them anymore. And it's like, my daughter saw me lifting now she's lifting with me and my son is now like, picking protein like when we go to the grocery store like little thing But it's going to have an impact on their tribe on their family. So yeah, that definition of alpha makes complete sense to me. All right, man. So you've got the art of winning podcast. Oh, there's one last question I like to ask guests. And that is, what one question Did you wish I had asked? And what is your answer?
Ashton Levarek 55:18
Dane, that is a good. We talked about so much stuff. What is the one question I wish you asked. I don't know. How maybe how can someone reach their full potential? And I think, yeah, I think the answer to that it's going to be, keep moving forward. It's going to be clarity and focus. And, you know, I'm not a big Oprah fan. Honestly, the second time I talked about what she said. She said something and I, it's absolutely true. It's like most people don't get what they want out of life, because they don't explore what they want out of life. Right. And there are certain things that are inherent in you in your life, whatever, that drive you in a certain direction. And you have, if you don't explore that, like, if you say, I want to become a pilot, but you never pursue that. You're you're leaving so much on the table. That was part of your potential, you know?
Philip Pape 56:16
Yeah. Yeah. Don't just think about it exploring.
Ashton Levarek 56:20
Yeah. Are we going to do it? Are we going to be about it? Are we just going to talk about it, you know, like, we're here. We're in a physical realm. Let's take it and make
Philip Pape 56:27
it. Find somebody but get a book. Go, go go to get some training, talk to people who know about this stuff. listen to a podcast, anything. People listening right now there's, there's easy things you can do to move that needle forward. So
Ashton Levarek 56:38
yeah, taking action can be very small, but it gets bigger and bigger, because all of a sudden, yeah, that is because your
Philip Pape 56:44
paradigm shifts, your potential gets bigger. There you go. All right, man. This is awesome. So where can listeners find out more about you and your work?
Ashton Levarek 56:51
So yeah, I have the the art of winning podcast. And we have guests on and I also do solo episodes talking about a lot of this stuff, as well as entrepreneurship. But it's focused on health, wealth and happiness. But we also have our website, and it's more for real estate investing, but it's called a Valkyrie investment group. And that's www.vl KER ie group.com Valkyrie group.com.
Philip Pape 57:17
All right, you got it, the art of winning podcast, definitely follow it. If you're listening right now. It's super easy to do that. Just go on your app, look it up, click follow, and check it out. And then the website I'll put in the show notes, man, Ashton has a lot of fun, really cool topics that we dove deep into and I enjoyed it. So thanks for coming on.
Ashton Levarek 57:32
I appreciate you for having me. Thank you so much.
Philip Pape 57:37
Thank you for tuning in to another episode of Wits & Weights. If you found value in today's episode, and know someone else who's looking to level up their Wits & Weights, please take a moment to share this episode with them. And make sure to hit the Follow button in your podcast platform right now to catch the next episode. Until then, stay strong.
Ep 86: Energy, Workout Nutrition, and Performance-Based Strength for Women Over 40 with Steph Gaudreau
Today I have the pleasure of speaking with Steph Gaudreau, sports nutritionist and lifting coach. Steph Gaudreau will teach you about lifting, performance, and nutrition for athletic women over 40. She will talk about low energy availability, workout nutrition, carbs, and protein, and why you need to be strength training. She will also address gym intimidation and the unique challenges for women over 40.
Today I have the pleasure of speaking with Steph Gaudreau, sports nutritionist and lifting coach. I learned about Steph through her podcast, Fuel Your Strength, and was immediately drawn in by her practical science-backed advice for women over 40 who want to step into their strength and her philosophy that “lifting weights is a catalyst for a more expansive life.”
In today's episode, Steph Gaudreau will teach you about lifting, performance, and nutrition for athletic women over 40. She will talk about low energy availability, workout nutrition, carbs, and protein, and why you need to be strength training. She will also address gym intimidation and the unique challenges for women over 40.
Steph Gaudreau is a Certified Sports Nutritionist and USA Weightlifting Sports Performance coach. She helps athletic women over 40 fuel themselves better, get stronger, and perform better in the gym. Her best-selling book, The Core 4, shares her Core 4 pillars of health which are detailed in the book. She also has a podcast called Fuel Your Strength which started in 2015 and has over 4 million downloads.
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Book a FREE 30-minute call with Philip here.
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Today you’ll learn all about:
[2:22] Step's wakeup call 11 years ago
[10:34] Low energy availability - explanation, signs, symptoms, and importance
[13:55] Defining an athlete, specifically women over 40
[20:36] Importance of protein - distribution, quality, and timing
[26:20] Unique challenges for athletes over 40
[28:21] Client mindset and weight loss
[31:04] Benefits of strength training for women over 40
[34:43] Personal experiences with setbacks, injuries, or plateaus
[39:15] Dietary restrictions for conditions like Hashimoto’s
[43:38] Menstrual cycle and menopause considerations for fueling and training
[44:59] Workout nutrition - big picture and specific recommendations
[48:59] Overcoming intimidation towards lifting weights and gym culture
[56:56] Basic strength training programs and principles
[59:30] Personal hobbies outside fitness
[1:00:50] The question Steph wished Philip asked
[1:04:37] Where to find Steph
[1:05:13] Outro
Episode resources:
Steph's Podcast: Fuel Your Strength
Instagram: steph_gaudreau
FREE 30-minute results breakthrough session with Philip ⬇️
https://witsandweights.com/free-call
Learn about 1-on-1 coaching ⬇️
https://witsandweights.com/coaching
Ask Philip anything ⬇️
IG: @witsandweights
Email: philip@witsandweights.com
Podcast: Q&A voicemail
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Transcript
Steph Gaudreau 00:00
We have to stop thinking that we're like, too fragile to do this. In fact, doing these sorts of things in a sensible way. With a with a good plan, and paying attention to our bodies and giving enough recovery and the nutrition to support it is how we become more resilient.
Philip Pape 00:20
Welcome to the Wits & Weights podcast. I'm your host, Philip pape, and this twice a week podcast is dedicated to helping you achieve physical self mastery by getting stronger. Optimizing your nutrition and upgrading your body composition will uncover science backed strategies for movement, metabolism, muscle and mindset with a skeptical eye on the fitness industry so you can look and feel your absolute best. Let's dive right in Wits & Weights community Welcome to another episode of the Wits & Weights Podcast. Today I have the pleasure of speaking with Steph Gaudreau, sports nutritionist and lifting coach. I learned about stuff through her podcast fuel your strength. And I was immediately drawn in by her practical science back advice for women over 40 who want to step into their strength and her philosophy that quote lifting weights as a catalyst for a more expansive life. Who that's so good. In today's episode, we're getting into lifting performance and nutrition for athletic women over 40. And if you think you're not an athlete, think again, stuff we'll teach you about low energy availability, workout, nutrition, carbs, protein, and of course, why you need to be strength training, we will address gym intimidation, the unique challenges for women over 40 And of course the emotional and mental side of it all. Steph Gaudreau helps athletic women over 40 fuel themselves better, get stronger, increase their energy and perform better in the gym. In her best selling book the core four, she details a four pillar approach to getting stronger, embracing your body and owning your power. Steph is trained in biology and human physiology and is a certified sports nutritionist from the International Society for sports nutrition. She is also USA weightlifting, sports performance coach, her podcast fuel your strength started in 2015 and has over 4 million downloads. Steph, welcome to the show.
Steph Gaudreau 02:06
Thanks so much for having me. I appreciate it.
Philip Pape 02:10
So one story that you shared on I think it's maybe on your Instagram profiles that 11 years ago, a nutritionist said that you had quote surprisingly low food intake considering your volume and performance level. You said you're struggling with mood swings, soreness, nagging injuries, and that that was a catalyst for learning what was going on with your body, and then eventually helping and educating other athletic women. So tell us more about that wake up call. And then what it led to?
Steph Gaudreau 02:39
Oh my gosh, okay, I'll try to keep it sustained. Because I know we have a lot of content to get through. But I've been an athlete my whole life, participating in everything from childhood team sports, all the way up through competing at CrossFit regionals, triathlons, all sorts of stuff. So I've been in it and done a lot of things. And really, no one ever sat me down and said, You need to make sure you're eating enough. And this is how you do it. And by the way, these are also the outcomes that can happen if you if you don't properly fuel yourself. It's not just your performance may suffer. And of course, as a performance minded person, that mattered a lot to me. So I had just come off of a very long period of time, about eight years of racing bikes, I finished off at the sort of like endurance distance level was racing, 12 hour solo races, 24 hour races on teams, like putting in so much work on the bike, transitioned over to also doing extra triathlons, and then kind of burns out from that and didn't realize at the time, you know, looking back, hindsight is always 2020. You think, Wow, a lot of that probably had to do with just being so under fueled to really promote that burnout. And I transitioned over into lifting weights, which I'm super glad that, you know, looking back that that thing happened to me that I burned out and I was like, I need to really get serious about just not basing like all of my self worth on how small I can be. And a lot of the things that I was doing that encouraged that and found lifting and got really into lifting and really into CrossFit, which was great. But again, I still didn't have the knowledge of this is how we need to fuel for this kind of training this, you know, this is like a heavily glycolytic endeavor, or you're doing a lot of heavy lifting like this is how you would approach fueling in that way. My performance was really tapering off. I was starting to deal with a lot of injury. And I eventually said, you know, does anybody here like work with a nutrition person? And at the time I was teaching high school so I wasn't even in this career yet. And I connected with a sports nutritionist and I did a week worth of food logs, sent it into him and basically got that reply back like cool. Wow, okay. You're yours. significantly under eating for the kind of training that you're doing. And that was really, I don't know, if it was like, I think in the back of my mind, I knew something was going on. But again, I didn't know these principles at the time. And it was, it was hard, like, I got a list of things I should improve. And I always tell people, like, I probably wasn't the most compliant client at the time, because I found some of the things were really challenging to be in terms of like, the fears that I had, or, you know, not really knowing how to approach it. So that was a huge turning point for me, and went on a few months later. So that was kind of the end of 2012 went on, in 2013, in May to compete on a team across at regionals. And I will tell you, I was like a different athlete at that time. Like it was an amazing weekend, I felt like I performed probably in the top three performances, like in terms of athleticism, and sport, if my whole life, it was just I really turned it around and making sure that I was eating enough was a huge part of that. So it might sound really obvious to a lot of people like, Hey, you just got to eat enough. But at the time, I mean, it was it something that was really going through the forefront of my mind. So
Philip Pape 06:16
yeah, that's such a great story. There's a lot of things I want to pick out of that. But even just the principle, like I'm a big fan of principles, and just the the, the idea of it as fuel or helping out with health and these other outcomes, and eating enough, like you said, it's simple. Honestly, a lot of people just start there, and they don't need to worry about timing, and, you know, supplementation, let alone everything else. So you said originally, you were told, or you found out that it doesn't just affect performance, but other health outcomes. So what do you mean by that?
Steph Gaudreau 06:46
Yeah, for sure. So I think you know, growing up, I was in high school in the 90s. People want to figure out how old I am. I'm 44. And, you know, I had heard about things like, for example, female athlete triad. That was a thing that came out, it was first came out the literature in 1992. So, you know, kind of figured figured out the math there. Like it's something I had thought about, I had heard about, but I thought to myself, well, I don't have an eating disorder. I don't think I have osteoporosis. And I haven't lost my period. Well, I actually don't know, because I'm on birth control. So at that time, right, it was hard to say like, did I actually have what I have had a natural cycle, if I was not on oral contraceptives. So but in my again, in my mind, I was like, well, these are the three things that can happen to you, if you don't eat enough, and I don't think I'm displaying any of these, so I should be fine. So that's not the full story, right. And we know now that instead of just female athlete triad, right, that under fueling can affect athletes and athletic individuals, you don't have to be an elite athlete, you could be recreationally, training, you know, training for fun, just for your own improvement and enjoyment. But the underfilling affects all people, regardless of sexual, like, you know, assigned at birth, you know, male, female, etc. And can affect all these different levels of athletic individuals. So instead of just the female athlete triad, the symptoms of low energy availability, and sort of the outcomes of low energy availability were expanded into something called Red s. So relative energy deficiency in sport, the IOC came up with kind of their first statement on this in 2014. And then it was updated in 2018. And now more people are becoming aware that it's not just performance aspects that are going to take a hit, if you're in this chronic low energy availability state, and you don't also, by the way, have to be a woman for this to affect you. So we see, you know, things happening in all athletes. So it's not just for our performance. So we might have issues with our immune health issues with our digestive health issues with our psychological health, it's really across the board that we may start to see symptoms in what's going on as a result of under fueling, so low energy availability being the driver. And that doesn't always mean that you're, you know, intentionally under eating either, right, you could just have picked up a little bit more training, maybe you're training for something new, and you don't realize how much more energy you're expending. So you may not be purposefully, purposefully under eating. But of course, you may see that there are outcomes because you don't have enough fuel coming in. Once you've accounted for your activity level, which is what low energy availability really is to maintain the optimal health of these other systems. Right. So reproductive system, bone health, right are some of the common ones that we we might know about, but this is really can be a system wide, or across organ systems. Outcomes that people are dealing with in may not even know that it's down to. Yeah, they'll the lack of energy intake.
Philip Pape 09:55
Yeah. And that's huge because it often we often try to overcomplicate things when it comes to our health that we need to addressed these 10 or 15 issues and, and you told us a story about both the mental side of this, like when you're talking about being focused on being small, right, or how small you can be and transitioning away from that, transitioning from high endurance sports to more strength focused, even though they were highly glycolytic. Right? requiring lots of energy, you know, for people who aren't familiar with the term, right, glycogen and so on. And then men and women both face this now, do you find that it's, it's women predominantly that have this issue, and in particular, because so you've got people who are overweight, right, or think are overweight, or whatever term you want to use, that may have been gaining weight slowly over time. And then we have people that are maybe under fed, and then we have people who are sedentary versus active in both those states. So where are we? Where do we break it up? And categorize those different things in terms of the low energy available that you talked about?
Steph Gaudreau 10:52
Well, we really have to look at our activity level, as is kind of driving, you know, part of what's going on here. So we have our basal metabolic rate, right, which is the amount of energy that we're going through if we were completely bedridden, or lying down all day long. And this is such a simple concept yet very misunderstood, right? In that our bodies are requiring energy to run all of our background processes. Even if we're doing nothing, a lot of times we associate, oh, I, you know, I went and exercise. So people will say things like, Oh, I went and exercise. So like I quote unquote, earned like this tree or this desert, right? We have a lot of transactional relationships with like, exercise, therefore, I can eat more, or I'm like burning off that cheesecake. I mean, if, if we had $1, for every time, we've heard those sorts of things, but we need energy, even if we're purely at rest. So we have our basal metabolic rate, then we have things like our non exercise activities, so you know, fidgety, I'm moving around here moving my hands, you know, lifting up a fork, I mean, getting dressed like putzing, around your house, all those things not exercise activity, we have our purposeful exercise or purposeful activity, right? So we're engaging in an actual structured exercise. And then we have our thermic effect of food, which is the small, relatively small amount that we're using energy to actually digest and assembly the food that we're eating. So when we look at those things, like what can we shift the most? So we're talking about the difference between somebody say, sedentary versus somebody highly active, there's, there's could be a few things going on here. You know, the bigger our body is, the more energy we are using. So that's something to consider. But when we're looking at what do we have a lot of direct control over? It is sometimes those non exercise activity. moments, I guess we'll say, so like, how kind of active are we overall? And then are we engaging in exercise? And like, what is the intensity and duration of that? So we still have a, we have a baseline energy need, and then we're going to be layering more on top of that, based on those other factors. And I think that that's something where people can sometimes get a little bit stuck in the weeds of like, Am I doing more moderate exercise Am I getting used to, you know, just a little bit exercise, you know, versus somebody who's has a highly physically active job is on their feet, you know, maybe their labor, a labor of some kinds, like, they're gonna be going through a lot of energy. So it's not always just in the the exercise portion that we need to look. But I think that that can give folks a pretty decent starting point to start kind of estimating where they're at. And then knowing of course, if we're going to be doing something like strength training and trying to build up our muscle mass like, that means that you know, we're taking that longer view, but we are potentially adding more metabolically active tissue like that will raise some of these energy consumption. Buckets, if you will. And we can actually use that to our advantage.
Philip Pape 13:48
Yeah, I sometimes talk about it as like increasing the size of the pie, right? When you build that muscle mass. Let's, you mentioned the word athlete a few times. So I definitely want to be on part of this whole thing. Right? Yeah, you know, you're, you're you're a sports nutritionist, you're lifting coach, you have a background in biology, background physiology. And you apply all these principles to athletic women over 40. So now, how do you define athlete in that context? Why why women over 40 as well, I want to understand both aspects of that for you.
Steph Gaudreau 14:16
Yeah, for sure. So I think, first and foremost, when it comes to the word or the concept of an athlete, there's a lot of gatekeeping around this term, frankly, and I've seen some hot takes on the end on Instagram or the internet about like, Oh, you're not an athlete, unless you've ever competed in at least something in your life, or, Oh, you're not an athlete, unless you're at this level of competency, or, you know, like, let's say you you compete on a national team or an international team. I mean, there's just so much
Philip Pape 14:47
people want to label everybody there's just so much so much debate.
Steph Gaudreau 14:51
And to me, someone who's an athlete is somebody who's engaging in like intentional exercise and you you may have a goal in mind like You're, you're showing up with purpose in what you do. Period. Right. So that's, that encompasses a lot of people. The problem with that is that that identity, for a lot of people is something that they've taken off the table as an option. Maybe when they were in high school, they had to do the I don't know, we had to run what the mile Presidential Fitness Test all that stuff. And maybe you were like, I sucked at this, I sucked at running, I hated it. And maybe you had a coach that really was like, You're not good enough to be on this team. You're not athletic, I got cut from freshman basketball. So you're totally got it. No, it gets cut from freshman basketball, by the way.
Philip Pape 15:39
So I couldn't do a pull up when I was at age, and it was embarrassing, you know,
Steph Gaudreau 15:44
to climb a rope in gym class and you failed, or like whatever that happens to be. A lot of people have taken that off the table, or we look up to elite athletes as setting the standard and saying, Do you swim like Michael Phelps? Probably not. So you're not an athlete, right? Or do you get paid to work out? Yeah. Are you professional? You know, have you ever been to the Olympics? Probably not. So you're not an athlete. So we have that, that sense of, I'm not an athlete. But that can affect that identity, or that rejection of that identity, that piece of your identity or working to become or not become a person who is athletic, really changes the habits that you engage in? Or how you see the importance of things like making sure we're eating enough. And, you know, like you said earlier, is everybody working out or training to the extent that they need to really worry as much about things like nutrient timing, or supplementation, I mean, it's going to vary. But at the end of the day, for somebody who is working to become a more athletic person, or a more fit person, they might do things like understand that they need to prioritize their recovery a little bit differently, or like sleep is going to be more important. Or making sure that they're not skipping a bunch of meals every day. And these, this is where the rubber meets the road for most people that I work with most of the women that I work with, right? They're trying to figure out, Okay, once I have that knowledge, and I lean into that identity, how am I actually going to do that? Like, what are the systems, the structures, the environments, the social support that I need, in order to make these things happen?
Philip Pape 17:23
So good showing up with purpose in what you do, right? It's kind of like the difference between training and exercise and weight, lifting? Oh,
Steph Gaudreau 17:31
absolutely. Yeah. And so why women over 40 It's hard to define exactly when perimenopause begins, because it's different for every person, right? It could be your late 30s, you start noticing changes, it could be your late 40s. Right, we have this like window of time, for the most part unless it's an early, early onset, which is a different kind of condition to deal with. But looking at that, just that transition that we're going through, right, going through a physiological transition from pre menopause into post menopause. And also, the reason I say over 40, is, there's just a lot of challenges that happen in this phase of life, like, midlife is no joke, right? So you might have mounting pressures at work, you might have shifting family dynamics, maybe you have kids, and your kids are getting older, and they're like leaving the nest, so to say, maybe there's like not leaving the nest, and you have to deal with that. I don't know, you know, relationship challenges, those sorts of things. And then, of course, the biological challenges that are going to come with that, and how it affects how people see themselves as well. So there's, you know, a lot of continued body image challenges that women are dealing with understanding how our training potentially needs to change. So we're looking at how do we, you know, not necessarily make drastic changes, but how are we going to understand why we're shifting in the way that we are, and even things as simple as giving yourself more flexibility. Whereas before, when you were younger, you might have just been able to really power through no matter what. Right, or really just burn the candle at both ends, and not pay as much attention to some of the other stuff like soft tissue recovery and some of the other things that we know we need. And then also, of course, looking at the muscle and bone elements as well. But you know, things are shifting and changing. And are we going to continue to just harken back to what we always did, because it's familiar, which by the way, change is scary. And doing new things is scary. So we need support. But you know, are we going to just keep going back to what we did, because it's the familiar or we're going to evolve our training as we go and yes, the million dollar question.
Philip Pape 19:47
Yeah. And it can be a very exciting new phase of your life. It really can. I mean, I'm 42 So we're similar age range, and I didn't personally focus on my health as much as I could have should have whatever until I was almost 40 When you know the rubber hits the road, you're getting to this, this current turning point in your life and like all the decisions of your youth are finally catching up like they really are you made those decisions at a time when they didn't really affect you. Yeah, now they're kind of accumulating. And but you have some something that you can do about it, which is the empowering messages I think you have. And when you add, like women over 40, into the mix, where there's other things that from because of biological reasons, and otherwise, from hormones that make it that can make it confusing and complicated, but you try to cut through that and, and help them move forward. So it's super inspiring. Let's talk about what do we want to talk about next, let's talk about we talked about fueling your training. But and the importance of just basic energy needs. But now let's go to the next level of importance beyond that, whether it's macronutrients, timing, carbs, protein, all that fun stuff. For those listening, if you don't really listen to stuff, podcasts, like you break these things down in detail each episode, like very clearly, so it's like masterclass, and all this stuff, try. So just just for the different modes of training, what are the basics, basic recommendations here?
Steph Gaudreau 21:03
Yeah. So I mean, I think if we're thinking about being over 40, in general, the first thing that we need to think about is our protein intake across the board. I mean, whether you're, yeah, there's some variance like, are you heavily into like, endurance words, ultra endurance sports, like how you slice and dice sort of your protein versus carbohydrate, and fat is going to vary a little bit. But what we know for the most part from the research is like, if we're looking at aging, and we're looking at things like basic protein needs, we're going to need more protein as we age, not less, which surprises a lot of people because they're like, You know what, like, I maybe I'm not as active or I'm not lifting as, quote unquote, as heavy. But we, especially if we're going through the perimenopause, into menopause transition, we're starting to see kind of a shift in the balance of unless we're doing something about it right of more muscle parts, protein breakdown, versus muscle protein synthesis, the loss of estrogen, and its effects on, you know, muscle satellite cells and kind of getting nerdy about that science. And now,
Philip Pape 22:06
let's get let's get one extra nerdiness on that. Because I always wonder about this. I know that muscle protein synthesis slows with age. I know and women, I believe that that accelerates also with the age. Is it? Is it solely a function of the things you just mentioned? Or is it also because you have not been building that muscle mass? Yeah. And then that correlates with age,
Steph Gaudreau 22:28
I think we're seeing, you know, a push to include that in the conversation like, is it is are we? Are we slowly seeing like aging, and that loss of muscle mass, and then potentially, like clinical levels of sarcopenia? Which is muscle loss, like is that solely due to inactivity? And like lack of lifting and so on and so forth? Or is that just natural aging? And so on and so forth? And I think the answer, if I had to make a guess, is probably it's a little bit of both. And so of course, if we stay strength training, for example, through our 40s 50s 60s, like, can we maintain a portion of what we've built? Right? Can we build more tissue? Yes, like, does it mean we're going to experience no loss of, for example, muscle tissue or bone? It seems to be as far as I'm aware that we're still going to have some loss, right, as far as what the research is saying. So it's probably a little bit of both. And I think this is the thing that makes it exciting, slash hopeful for people is like, there are things we can do. And I think that that's, I will keep coming back to that. Because if we feel like it's hopeless, like that's where we get a little bit into those mindsets of like, what's the point? Why bother? And then we know that we can positively affect that. So yes, like having adequate protein intake to help drive muscle protein synthesis. And in combination with resistance training, we see so many studies where they're looking at the things like sort of the effect of whether it's creatine supplementation on bone, and I was just talking to Dr. Darren Kando. About this, they did this big study in Canada on this and they looked at creatine supplementation, along with resistance training. So if we know if we have that mechanical tension, from resistance training, we have that microscopic damage to our muscle tissue that then causes growth and repair. We have an adequate protein intake, to support that, that we're going to see a better outcome. So you know, women in general, you know, I think, again, what it comes down to for people is like not in the knowledge of like, oh, I need more protein, but then what does that actually look like? And how do I do that? In all of the habits that I have, but yeah, looking to have that adequate protein intake. And you know, just like ballpark here, we're kind of looking at 1.6 to 2.2 grams per kg body weight range. There's lots of ways that you're you're going to like customize If this were you so but but that's more than even kind of what the going level for sedentary individuals is these days, which is more like that 1.2 Maybe a little bit higher. So, yeah, we need more protein for sure. And then looking at carbohydrate intake, just based on again, like what what is our training look like? What is our activity look like? Are we endurance athletes that we're, you know, training for a marathon or something of that nature, where we're doing a lot more just, we have a lot more energy expenditure and output? Are we doing a lot of glycolytic? Training? You know, if I'm, for example, somebody who's mainly lifting weights and walking, does my carbohydrate level need to be at the level of somebody training for an Ironman? No, unlikely, right. So understanding how we have our total energy needs, and then how we divvy that up, protein is kind of stay, it's like the middle of that seesaw, like kind of staying consistent? Because we have that absolute need for protein, and then how do we, like raise the carbohydrate need, and then sort of, like, balance it out with our fat intake, so that we're, we're in that, you know, I so caloric range? We're trying to build a little bit, we're maybe a little bit over, but we're making sure that like, those pieces come together?
Philip Pape 26:20
Yeah, quick follow up on the protein versus carbs for endurance athletes, I don't know how many of those types of athletes you work with, versus just the run of the mill Gen pop, who lifts and walks into some cardio? Is is the concern more toward, like lead up to an event and then the event itself? Or is there a continual period during the training that you kind of have to sacrifice a bit of that protein to get the carbs in,
Steph Gaudreau 26:42
um, I tend to not work with people who are really in that very long Ataris slash ultra endurance crowd, I am working more, with more people now, though, who are understanding the importance of just cardiovascular training and like, you're doing more of that cardiovascular training, Is it always like an intense level? No. But again, it's like, you may have to shift again, looking at the, our sort of like total energy need, and then how we partition that out. So there are some people who are doing ultra endurance type pursuits, and they end up shaving a little bit off of their protein need just to account for the extra carbohydrate need. But I think we're coming to understand that like, we need to kind of keep that as as high as possible, without sacrificing you know, any, any muscle mass in the process, or as little sacrificing as little muscle mass in the process. And that is definitely something that I experienced when I was doing all my endurance training. And again, I was doing kind of like ultra, ultra, but like longer endurance events, I was just like, could not hang on to muscle mass muscle was just like sliding off my body at a certain point, because I just was not keeping up with my overall calorie needs. And my protein I like I had have no idea if I had to, like even think about how much protein I was eating, but it wasn't very much.
Philip Pape 28:04
So priorities. You have priorities, you know, for that, for that mode of training. Yeah, yeah.
Steph Gaudreau 28:08
So sometimes they'll will, they'll scoot it down, they'll scoot protein down a little bit to account for like the the higher calorie allotment that needs to go to carbohydrate.
Philip Pape 28:18
Okay, what now? Do you work primarily? So let's say a client comes in who has kind of a, I guess, traditional narrative of like, feel the need to lose some weight? Are you working primarily in the kind of body recomp and lifting and muscle building side of the phases? Or do you also dip into fat loss regularly with your clients?
Steph Gaudreau 28:40
I am pretty much solely focused on how do we help get you stronger and put some muscle on your body? Yeah. There are a lot of clients, or a lot of students that I have, who will have a desire at some point to do some body recomp and you know, I think like that's, if there's if they want to go and like seek that out like secondarily. But I think there's this notion that we have to we have to diet down and then we're gonna go to muscle building that a lot you know, so I'm like, let's focus let's get you focused on building what you need to build like get your strength up like lay the foundation of getting some more muscle on your frame so that you are able to see your metabolism be a little bit more resilient and like less leveraged down into this like little box of I don't know that like 1000 to 1300 calorie range and a lot of women are in this like they're like I I can't seem to like eat anymore or I see my my body composition start shifting in a way that I don't like and I'm like we need to you know slowly get you eating a little bit more like relaxed some of the those like restrictive rules that you've had, and get you to a place where you're more you're more stable like I've what I would basically call more like maintenance and then And if you want to go and pursue that other stuff, but if you try to just go on, you know, try to do a fat loss phase, your protein is not adequate. And you're not resistance training. Yeah, we're going to end up in the same exact situation that you've been in. Right. So yeah, so that's the, the tactic that that I personally take with, with my clients and my students is like, let's get you to that. More to that mean, as level, like, let's get you feeling strong, let's get you feeling like you can sleep again, your recovery is better, you're feeling better overall. And then like, then if it's necessary for you to kind of dial things back. But the problem is, like I said, a lot of my clients come in, and they realize they've been under eating, they don't have a lot of distance left to cut, if any at all. And if they do, they're gonna end up eating less than their basal metabolic rate, or pretty close to it any attempt to feel not so hot if you're doing that for not a good thing. periods of time. So, you know, that's my approach.
Philip Pape 31:02
I mean, that's one of the reasons I wanted to invite you on, because I think we need to have more of that message. There are many, many, many, you know, dieting type coaches out there. Not enough talking about building first and I've seen it with clients as well came in wanting to lose weight and hold on, let's just hang out here for a while started lifting weights and you just see a transformation in their mindset in so many ways. I think just the act of lifting and the physiological and hormonal response from that just elevate your mood. There's, there's, there's, there's actual pathways, right, that make us feel better about what we're doing. And then as the waist size decreases, anyway, like, okay, as a side benefit, it is improving my body composition. So
Steph Gaudreau 31:41
sure, yeah, yeah, people I think just ended up coming to a bit of a more, I'm not gonna say it's without challenge. I mean, people are always like, Oh, would you started lifting weights? Like, did you did you get smaller? Did you lose weight or, and I'm like, No, I got bigger, I had to get bigger, close. But I was way was way happier, felt way better. So you know, I think it's important to have those conversations too. And recently, I was chatting with a friend of mine on her Instagram post, Jen Hossler. And we were talking about, you know, we're like, women, you will get bulky if you lift it, it's like, but we had to also be nuanced about this, like, if your, your muscles are probably going to grow. Like, you're probably gonna grow. I know, for me, I used to be a teacher and I would have all these, like, cute blouses with like, the little sleep cap sleeves, like, you know, and I was like, I can't wear that stuff anymore. I had to I had to get new shirts, and you know, those sorts of things. So yeah, it's no
Philip Pape 32:41
muscle tissues dense. No,
Steph Gaudreau 32:43
there is that, and it just makes you all around better at life. And, you know, we were talking earlier about, like, a more expansive life. And that's really, you know, you're, you're, you're feeling like you can, you can be with people and like, focus on the moment and not be worried about like, what your weight was on the scale this morning, or, you know, feeling like you can put that suitcase in the overhead bin. And it's nice that someone offered to help you, but you could do it on your own if you had to. Just like little things like that. You have experiences
Philip Pape 33:17
if I saw you on a plane, I would not really you got it.
Steph Gaudreau 33:21
You'd be surprised you'd be surprised by that. But yeah, it's uh, it's, you know, that idea of like, getting back up to that maintenance level or of, you know, shifting in terms of like your mindset on things. And I have a couple of newer students who on their own accord their boyfriends, and they were like, Oh, we decided like to get rid of our scale. And then they went through their closet and like, took all the clothes that weren't fitting them and put them aside, and those sorts of things. And it is a shift in your mindset is shifted, and like your approach, and especially if you've been used to being really restrictive, flipping that around saying like, having a an inclusive or an additive approach or thinking about like, what can I What Can I include here that I haven't included before? Yes.
Philip Pape 34:15
By adding things in Yes. Yeah, for sure. Hey, this is Philip. And I hope you're enjoying this episode of Wits & Weights. If you're looking to connect with like minded listeners on their health and fitness journeys, come join our free Facebook community. It's a supportive space where you can share your experiences, ask questions, and access free guides and weekly trainings. Just search for Wits & Weights on Facebook, or find the link in the show notes. Now back to the show. You mentioned much earlier when we started that you when you started working your nutritionist you weren't entirely compliant because of fears and fears and limitations is this Yeah, we're talking about
Steph Gaudreau 34:52
Yeah, so when he came back to me and we looked at my food logs and I've like literally taken screenshots of these so people can see like I'm not just making this up, there was definitely a day in my week where I was like about 1000 calories. Fish, there were many days where I was, like 60 grams of carbs. And I'm trading, I'm training for competitive level CrossFit.
Philip Pape 35:17
And that's keto, basically.
Steph Gaudreau 35:20
But I had done so much. I had been eating so low carb for so long that that was just kind of how I again, it wasn't even just a, well, everybody's talking about, you just need to like cut your carbs. So you can be lean, which was one of the things I definitely talked, I was like, I just still want to like saline, I was like really concerned about body composition, which, again, is we're talking about performance here. But also this like mixing this with aesthetics, right. So that's something to be aware of. But my cars were really low, my protein was pretty low, as well. And that just gave me an overall really low energy intake. And so the thing I was like running headfirst into was to change my protein intake, which is generally what I recommend for my clients anyway, is like, if we're going to start any more like, let's, let's start with a little bit more protein and see how that goes. But when I kind of like went through this three phase approached to working with him, the next time we checked in, and he's like, so what's going on with this, like carb intake, and I was doing a little bit better, but still far too low. I mean, again, looks like less than 100 grams of carbs a
Philip Pape 36:27
day, and you had to be it was in the two hundreds or something, right? Yeah,
Steph Gaudreau 36:30
like it was. It was a, it was definitely the thing that I was the most resistant to. And this was back in the day, like we weren't doing, you know, we wouldn't have Voxer or WhatsApp check ins or those sorts of things. It was like, once a month, I would email him with like, Margaret. So I think what I what I needed was more support in terms of just talking through those those challenges, those mindset challenges, or the beliefs that I had, or, you know, even something as simple as, and he did talk about this, like in the feedback. But again, you kind of need to talk to a real person to just work through it sometimes or hear that other people are going through this. But it's like, well, this is why we need carbs, especially in our post workout and those sorts of things. But it was still it was still scary because I had been in that, like, eat low carb, low carb for so long. That shifting that was was a mental bit of a mental hurdle. At that time it took it took a lot of time.
Philip Pape 37:32
Yeah, for sure. Yeah, I hear you're saying I and I've seen that as well. And it does seem to be more of the case with women and men for whatever reason, both the protein side with like, meat eating habits, you know, like, happiness scarfed down just tons of meat, that thinking about it, there's a difference, right? And then and then the carbs, especially especially if you condition with the low carb or the keto diet of late. And when you make that change all of a sudden, it's like, Why is everything feeling better? Why am I sleeping better, all of a sudden, I can lift more than that it just spirals into good stuff? Well, I'll tell you
Steph Gaudreau 38:03
this, some of it is very cultural. And I've even had clients tell me that they would go out to eat. And this is actually happened to me go out to eat your order, someone else brings the food out. And they give you the wrong dish. Like I've had, for example, I've gone out and ordered, you know, a steak with potatoes or something and in my dining companion who's a guy or a salad, and they bring it to me, right? There's just assumptions, or I had a client tell me one time that she was she was reluctant to eat all the food on her plate because she felt it would be emasculating to the person she was eating with. So we have all of these really. Yeah, narratives about like, if you're a woman you have to eat release dainty tiny portions and how that intersects with diet culture, and then how that affects how we eat as as athletic people. And it's impossible to just talk about it in a silo when we start to pull back and see all those layers and how they they affect each other.
Philip Pape 39:10
So I want to get a little bit into some couple questions. My community wanted me to ask you because it's super excited that you're coming on the podcast. Just have a few others then what about food intolerances. So yeah, you know, I've got clients, for example, and Hashimotos. Right, we have to avoid all sorts of things. Gluten, grains, beans there, it kind of sounds like the Paleo diet that, yeah, you're even more limited. And that limits are carb options, which is exactly what we're talking about why I want to segue. It's like, okay, well, we need 300 grams of carbs. I almost no foods that can give me carbs. Well, yeah.
Steph Gaudreau 39:42
Yeah. This is yeah, this is tough. And I do have a lot of students who have food intolerances clients as well. So like you said, whether it's it's dairy, which can make protein a challenge, or just harder, right delimits your options, or you know, like, like you said, Um, gluten containing grains, I think that the end of the day, you have to just find what works. And run with that. And that could mean for example, if you can tolerate, I don't know, we're talking about like tubers, so potatoes, sweet potatoes, etc. Like, let's get you as much variety within your limitations as possible. And, and work to toward the most variety as you possibly can get an understanding to and I see this a lot with these, with individuals that have this challenges. Sometimes they gravitate a little bit, they lean into I'll say, because of necessity, really fibrous, LivePerson vegetables as, as kind of the basis of what they're doing. And again, if they're doing long training, endurance training, or you know, intense training, it's like, how do we get the how do we get the density of carbohydrates that we need, especially around training? digestibility? Yeah, yeah. And so sometimes it's like, you know, this food is just so high volume, which is fibers great. Right, we need a fiber, or something else. Yeah, like, so it could be, for example, like, maybe they're able to tolerate something like banana. So eating banana postworkout, or something like that instead of fluffy salad. Because the salad might have some carbohydrate in it, and primarily from fiber, or what you put on top of it, but maybe they're able to tolerate something like white rice. And so like looking for those options. And yeah, I have so much empathy for people who are in that position, because it's just a little bit more limited in terms of what they can oftentimes tolerate. But usually, you know, if we work closely enough, we're able to sort of, like explore other options. And I'll say this, too. There were definitely foods that gravitated away from when I was eating more low carb, not not necessarily because of necessity, but because like, that's just what you did. And I would go to the grocery store, and it was like, I couldn't even see these. Yeah. He just blanked it out. Right. And so I oftentimes have that conversation with people that are like, Oh, I stopped eating fruit. Really? Right. So you know, potentially, potentially, you know, could you add in maybe some fruit or like I said, potatoes, I know so many people that were like, Oh, I you know, I reintroduced them and new on autoimmune protocol, I think that's one of the things you eliminate for a while, and then you can kind of welcome back in potentially, and just test and see how you do. And there are some denser carbohydrate options that aren't like gluten containing grains for people,
Philip Pape 42:37
so No, that's good. Regarding variety, I just what came to mind is, of course, there's many ways to cook things, too, right? So if you're gonna eat potatoes, like in a prison, where they're gonna give it to you the same way every day, you get to try and this you're not fried, but you know, cook them a million different ways. Yeah,
Steph Gaudreau 42:52
totally. And I will say, for people that are trying to just get in enough calories, like that's a concern for them. You know, sometimes we talk about like, oh, liquid, like don't eat your calorie or don't, don't drink your calories, you should be eating your calories. And it's like, actually, to some people that can end up working against them. So if you're somebody who is struggling to get enough food to meet your activity level, and you do have some more limited options, like could you put it in a smoothie and drink it? Post post workout or something just so you're able to like, chew a little bit less? And increase the density? Yeah, yeah. Again, oh, some people will be like, I need to do the opposite. And that's why customizing and personalizing is so important.
Philip Pape 43:29
Cool. Yeah. And there. I mean, there's something like there's highly branched cyclic dextran, too, I guess as an option for Yeah, for carbs. Yeah, totally. And then what about women fueling or fueling their training based on their menstrual cycle? Or menopause status? Things? Yeah.
Steph Gaudreau 43:46
So this is really, really interesting. Because if we look at, for example, what happens in terms of the menstrual cycle, and we're looking at protein oxidation or carbohydrate oxidation. So for example, let's take protein, protein oxidation or protein breakdown seems to increase in the luteal phase of the menstrual cycle. And I have seen that's like a bad game of telephone. I think people are well intentioned. But what I have seen on social media is it that translates into literally I saw one time, there was a post that said you should eat twice as much protein in the luteal phase. And I was like,
Philip Pape 44:21
this massive reaction to it. Wow, like,
Steph Gaudreau 44:25
oh, that's, that's right. That's a big, that's a big leap, especially if you're already getting a pretty adequate amount of protein. So I think we need to be a little bit cognizant of this cycle like cycle based eating cycle based training, even like we do not currently have enough research to draw universal recommendations on exercise. Like how to how to shift all of your exercise depending on what week of the menstrual cycle you're in.
Philip Pape 44:57
Would there ever be because it's content vary so much from person to person.
Steph Gaudreau 45:01
Well, that's the thing that, as of as of what we know, right now, the best recommendations that we have are an N equals one approach to that training, yeah. And again, this is kind of where you see like those circle graphs on social media, it's cut into four, four pieces. And each wedge is like when we hit the menstrual cycle. And it's like, in week one, you should do this. And week two, you should do this and be three, you should do this. And I'm like, most people are struggling to even find, like, some kind of consistency in their schedule than to have to plan for different weeks of like exercise. Now, does that mean we shouldn't be flexible? Of course, not like there's going to be some days where or so weeks where maybe you feel great, the last week of your cycle, maybe you feel terrible, you, you kind of play it by ear and give yourself flexibility. And that's where that n equals one approach is really important. You know, there are some things you can think about in terms of just overall nutrient intake, like, making sure and but I think what it comes down to is, again, like those basic principles, like you said, at the top of the show, and I'm really big on principles as well, like, when we include more variety we get we cover more of our micronutrients, right, versus having a just a few different foods that we eat, you know, making sure we're getting adequate protein intake and getting as high quality protein as we can means we're getting adequate amino acid intake. Right? So yes, there are some some things to consider you mentioned menopause, I mean, we have a risk of cardiovascular disease that increases as women, once we're in that menopause window, which is then going to be for the rest of our life, we see an increase in cardiovascular risk. So saturated fat intake, for example, could be really important to just kind of keep an eye on that calcium intake going to be important for bone health, along with other factors, right. So these these things don't exist in a silo in terms of how they're being metabolized and used in the body. That protein intake we talked about, if somebody's experiencing, for example, insulin resistance isn't necessarily Is it necessary to like not eat any carbohydrates ever again? Probably not, it's probably not going to be really work for people. There are some people who I think are like, I find this incredibly liberating. But that's where we had to be really careful about making sure you're eating enough again to like cover your, your carbohydrate need, but that might just be less sugar, less like refined sugar, less alcohol, or Whole Foods, more fiber. And it doesn't sound that doesn't sound trendy, slash sexy or proprietary. Unfortunately, this is just kind of like common sense or basic, like sound nutritional advice and
Philip Pape 47:44
principles. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And oftentimes, people ask these questions. Sure. It's the wrong question. Because yeah, doing these other things first,
Steph Gaudreau 47:53
right? Well, you know, there are things like energy balance. So you know, if weight weight increases, is a concern is like, are we just meat? You know, how are we helping you kind of eaten a volume of satiating foods, right, so that you're, you know, not just constantly eating because you don't feel satisfied. So those things can be on the table, depending on what the person comes in with. But I will say, a lot of people who I run into in this category are also dealing with, like food is an emotional coping mechanism. And other things that are, are more than just knowing how much food to put on your plate, which is, again, why I support and working with somebody who can who can help you tease through all these things can really be useful. Yeah,
Philip Pape 48:45
I agree. I mean, we can we can shout from the rooftops all the strategies, exactly what you need to do from A to Z. And you're gonna have you answered every single question. As you know, that isn't always enough when you're dealing with these other issues. So underlying, underlying all of this is being an athlete, and aging and how we maximize this phase of life is lifting, right? We haven't really talked too much about lifting like in specific, but let's do it. Yeah. So what are the I mean, and I've talked about a lot on the show, too, but I want to hear from you like, what are the real big benefits of lifting, especially for women over 40? And then we can segue into some basic recommendations on getting started there.
Steph Gaudreau 49:24
Yeah, so I think I mentioned earlier, we need enough mechanical tension, as part of, you know, how our muscle is actually going to like, grow and repair and build. So it's important that we're we're lifting challenging enough weights. Again, like a lot of people are like, ah, like I already know, I already know this, but lifting challenging enough weights so that you're able to have the stimulus to then rip, you know, you have your repair, you have your fatigue, you have your repair and then you have your adaptation. So we need enough stimulus to provide that adaptation, unfortunately, because society has a narrative that people who are like over 40 are basically one foot in the grave, which is ridiculous. You know, we should only do easy stuff, you should only do gentle exercise, you know, this is going to hurt your joints like we have, we've had. Like, if you've got a bad knee from, you know, something that happened when you were 20 Like, and of course, there can be pain without injury and injury without pain. And like, that's all a pain science is very complex. And I'm not going to pretend to be an expert in this. But disuse is also a huge problem. Like, if we're not using our muscles, we're not using our body, like things are gonna start to hurt. You know, we get those aches and pains. Do you need to go benchpress 400 pounds in your garage? Of course not. But we need to be sensible about this stuff and understand that physiologically, if we expect our bodies to get stronger, we have to apply a stimulus that we can then get an adaptation from. And so if we're only ever lifting tiny little weights, and I get served these reels on Facebook, Facebook must think you know, it knows I'm in my mid 40s. And it serves me the craziest reals. Like, I can't even tell you I saw one the other day that was like, Do this exercise to tone your turkey neck and I took a screenshot and synthesis of this is the content that we're getting, right? Where it's all everything is a tiny weight. Yeah, colored colored dumbbells and everything is done for like 20 to 30 reps, which is, isn't it? You know, is muscular endurance invalid? Of course not. But when we see these things, again, as women over 40, we're like, there's still a lot of verbiage like I want to get toned, I want to, you know, book XYZ, and then painting the picture of what it takes to actually get there is very misleading. So are we do we have enough stimulus? Are we lifting heavy enough? Are we following progressive overload? Are we taking care of our soft tissue, right? Because as we lose estrogen, through the menopause transition, our our ligaments, tendons, and you see I have, I've hurt my finger at jujitsu a couple months ago. So I'm dealing, I think with some of this as well, but it's like, we're just those, those connective tissues aren't quite as forgiving as they used to be. Right? Maybe our the rest of our life has become very sedentary, then we go into gym, and we expect our body to do a lot of stuff. So are we taking care of our soft tissue? are we introducing exercises that help us to stay stay powerful, and to also help with our bone? Density? Right? So plyometrics? are we including those again, these are like things that I'm talking to my, my students and my clients about, and they're like, Oh, by her jumping is bad for you. And I'm like, Well, we are going to have to help you start doing it with good mechanics. But sitting and doing nothing is also not helping, we will tend tend to lose type two fibers, right? That shift from type 2x sensor to slide toward type two, type one. And so are we able to move powerfully? Are we avoiding that? Dyna Peenya. Right, which is the kind of sister to sarcopenia, which is the loss of explosive power, you know, for feel like we're slowing down. But are we training in that way? Are we doing cardiovascular training, and that's like a whole other thing, too. But it's not like one or the other. There's a reason why the exercise guidelines in this country as well as in Canada, and I'm sure other countries includes both. So we have to stop painting one against the other, we have to stop thinking that we're like, too fragile to do this, in fact, doing these sorts of things in a sensible way. With a with a good plan, and paying attention to our bodies and giving enough recovery and the nutrition to support it is how we become more resilient. Physically. Yes, you may have to adapt things. And so I hear this a lot also from people in my community, which is like, I can't do squats. And I'm like, guess what, there's like 100 other ways we can work your you know, like muscles. So like, let's
Philip Pape 54:15
find out even if that's even a true statement and you want to be empathetic. You also want to unravel that and be like What do you mean because I know I just had somebody like three weeks ago who was saying that and it was like my hip flexors and this and that and the other end like can you squat to a box without any weight? Yeah, no problem. You can squat the squat put a broom handle and add a little weight let's see if you can do that and then the next step in the next step, but I think a lot of people are afraid because they haven't gotten haven't squatted since they were like eight and it's just a weird position and there's lots of balance issues and all this other stuff right so
Steph Gaudreau 54:50
scary to right people are free to paint is like a not a fun thing. And unfortunately and this is like even kind of a shift in like how PT is being addressed. And again, a non physical therapist, but friends with people who are more in the new school, which is like we had to be really careful about psychologically what we put in people's minds about, about pain or about what it means or about, like, giving them that like, then lifelong sense of limitation that you can't or shouldn't I have a client who was told she shouldn't hinge and I was like, Well, how do you do your How do you do your farmers carries? How do you sit farmers carries the chemicals like well, how do you do your farmers carries? And she was like, Oh, yeah. Okay. So she's like she's hinging, right. How do you how do you? How do you do anything? How to pick something up off the shelf? Yeah. So obviously, like, are we going to load this client with her Max, conventional deadlift, like on day one, of course not. But looking for ways to, to modify movements to work up to movements to, you know, drill sound mechanics, but without making people afraid, I think is so lacking in, especially in people over 40. And then like, just learning that, hey, if you've been I see this all the time, it's like, you've come off a period of inactivity, which is fine. But we also had to like, pull you back a little bit. Sometimes if you have that athlete mentality. Sure. The other side of it, yeah, because you're like, Alright, I'm gonna go go. So like, my first workout back was Murph, like, let's not do that, because you're probably not gonna walk for three weeks? Oh, yeah. Right.
Philip Pape 56:31
So funny. And there's a, there's a cause and effect, that sometimes it's turned around, like you mentioned a bad like, my knees are bad. So I'm not going to squat. Whereas it's like, Well, why don't we squat to help your knees? You don't like that mentality? How many? Do you find that this is just so common still, that people don't understand the very basic premise of lifting heavy and, you know, stimulus, adaptation, recovery and all that like I do? So do you?
Steph Gaudreau 56:57
Yeah, absolutely. Crazy. Yeah. This is the reason why it's a principle that I teach in my course, yeah, I teach to my students, because I, they might very well not be programming for themselves. In fact, there's a very low likelihood that they're doing their own programming. And in fact, some of them I'm like, stop, stop making up your own workouts. Yeah, follow this plan, or go work with this coach, like, because they're credible. And there's good coaches, there's even good templates just stop Bulgarian split squatting six times a week, or stop heavy, deadlifting, five times a week, like, if it's truly having enough, you're not gonna be able to recover from it any way that would that frequency so, but I want them to feel empowered, when they go into a gym, or they work with their coach or their trainer, they see the workout of the day that they're able to understand and rationalize also how the recovery pieces and the nutrition pieces fit in there. So that they're able to sometimes make that choice of like, you know, what, yeah, I haven't slept great. In the last few days, like I've been having hot flashes, it's keeping me up at night, or work has been bananas, and I've not really eaten very well, like, I don't feel great, my energy super low. Maybe today isn't the day that I'm going to push for a one rep max or something like that, I'm going to, you know, leave it to RPE a little bit more, or those sorts of things, and adapt the workout. So helping them understand physiologically How it works is really important, because a lot of people aren't professionals in this field, like they don't have that, that education and adult learners really need to understand the rationale, the reasons why, if they're going to adopt something, especially if it's a new thing, and it's a little bit like, I don't know, this kind of contradicts with, like, a lot of the stuff I've ever seen out in the world, or I've been told about how the body works. So
Philip Pape 58:58
I totally agree, because otherwise you're left in this, this level of uncertainty where the information out there just comes in fast and furious. And if you don't know any of it works, you're just going to pick something right? By explaining it and saying, This is why this is the absolute absolute best, but really, it is I mean, there are some principles that are just superior, right? And with confidence, like we do in podcast and like you're doing it with your coaching and training, then they can you know, maybe do it on their own, that's cool, or maybe get the help that they need. So an hour has flown by really fast and stuff. I've really enjoyed talking to you. Yeah. Yeah, so and you've got your podcast too, that reaches out to a lot of people as well is there what do you do for fun outside the fitness space?
Steph Gaudreau 59:42
Gosh, a lot of the things that I do even for fun are our fitness focus. I feel like you know, I was I was put on this planet at this time to encourage encourage people to, you know, to be active and, and to feel like the benefits of that whether or not it's Whether or not you ever compete is just like how movement benefits your life and it doesn't have to be horrible and something that you paid or that you know all that kind of stuff. Yeah so out let's see, I really like to I really like Lord of the Rings I really I really
Philip Pape 1:00:19
trilogy ever right?
Steph Gaudreau 1:00:20
Yeah, the best trilogy ever. I like secretly like to put together Legos. Lego sets in and stuff with my husband. Yeah, I like live a pretty, pretty low key life like it's, you know, it's I'm just trying to enjoy every day as much as possible. And, you know, do Brazilian jujitsu outside of lifting. I do rucking and I'm involved with some racking events as well. So yeah, right. Yeah. Well,
Philip Pape 1:00:48
well, just to respect your time, I'm gonna ask you my the same question I asked every guest. And one question Did you wish I had asked, and what is your answer?
Steph Gaudreau 1:00:59
Oh, gosh, okay. I think one of the things people, one of the things I wish people would talk more about is this idea of optimizing, sort of like biohacking, and like, what my thoughts are on that. So, you know, it's really easy to see this list of like, 18 things you're supposed to do before eight o'clock in the morning. And, you know, recently I made a mean Instagram story about, you know, this, this concept of like, you're not supposed shouldn't drink coffee for 90 minutes upon waking, and those sorts of things. And yes, there's like a physiological basis to this. But the person I saw talking about it said, like, drinking coffee before then is literally pointless is the words that this person used. And I was like, Wait a minute. So I think you know, we have to be a little bit careful sometimes in our zest to biohack everything because of a few factors. But one of the most important ones, I think, is like we kind of miss some of the other strategies and principles, as we talked about that are even if we can nudge them a small percentage, are going to pay back dividends to like how we feel our health and well being much greater than some of the like the little hacks in you know, optimizing things that we see a decade popularity, you know, or they come back around like, yeah, like cold plunge, or, you know, like morning sunlight and red light therapy, like all these things, like they're, you know, in a lot of ways, like there's a basis for these things. But for a lot of the average more average folks that I've worked with, and I don't say that in a negative way, like I consider myself to be an average person who just really likes fitness, I'm not, I'm not incredibly gifted at any one thing, and I don't get paid to work out. I think that sometimes we we kind of see like, what's hot, and what's popular and things like I feel a lot of pressure, like, I should do this thing, too. And if I'm not that I'm not doing a good enough job, or I'm somehow somehow failing at this, or I'm feeling a lot of undue like stress or anxiety about having to do all of these things. And so I guess if you have like the money, it feels like real fun to you. And it's something that you're curious about, and it feels like it fits in really well with your life. That's cool. But I also want to encourage people to sometimes just like, take a beat. And think about like, Am I doing some of these basics? And can I nudge these basics a little bit better first, before I put a lot of stress and pressure on myself to have to like, go through this list of biohacking things and optimize every single strategy. So yeah, I think that's just one that I'm seeing a lot lately, and I'm hearing from people is a lot of pressure to do all of these things. And I'm like, what if you did like, three things and did that really well? Yeah. And they're like, oh, yeah, I didn't think about that.
Philip Pape 1:04:10
Yeah, I mean, there's so and there's so many like grounding, and there's everything else. If you just did it all you you'd spend four hours a day just by the right kind of it gives you this little bit of anxiety, like all this stuff. So I like what you said, you know, the nutrition and strain pyramids are there's very, very, there's similar models to that, where supplements are at the top. So biohacking hacking would be like, like a beetle on top of the pyramid, you know, like standing on the tip. Totally. Okay, cool. So, where can listeners learn about your stuff?
Steph Gaudreau 1:04:39
Yeah, so you can check out my Podcasts, it's fuel your strength podcast. Fun fact is that this week is the eighth anniversary of the podcasts in his different iterations. Feels like really long time. So we have a podcast. I'm probably most active on Instagram, on social media. And then of course, my website, Steph gaudreau.com.
Philip Pape 1:04:59
All Awesome. Those will definitely go in the show links. And yeah, you were super responsive to me, so I appreciate it. Yeah, it's awesome having you on the show. Yes, refreshing take on women over 40 lifting and being an athlete all this awesome stuff fueling yourself. Thank you again for coming on the show.
Steph Gaudreau 1:05:14
Thanks for having me. I appreciate it.
Philip Pape 1:05:18
Thank you for tuning in to another episode of Wits & Weights. If you found value in today's episode, and know someone else who's looking to level up their Wits & Weights. Please take a moment to share this episode with them. And make sure to hit the Follow button in your podcast platform right now to catch the next episode. Until then, stay strong.
Ep 85: Mental Health, Physical Fitness, and the Power of Advocacy with Marc Paisant
Today I am chatting with certified personal trainer and mental health advocate Marc Paisant. You’ll learn how Marc turned adversity into a mission to raise mental health awareness, including the essential role of physical fitness in maintaining mental health and the importance of seeking support and maintaining balance. We’ll explore misconceptions about and how we end the stigma surrounding mental health.
Today I am chatting with certified personal trainer and mental health advocate Marc Paisant. You’ll learn how Marc turned adversity into a mission to raise mental health awareness, including the essential role of physical fitness in maintaining mental health and the importance of seeking support and maintaining balance. We’ll explore misconceptions about and how we end the stigma surrounding mental health.
Marc Paisant is a Certified Personal Trainer and the creator and host of the 6AMRun.com and Relatively Normal podcasts. In his shows, he shares his experiences with ADHD, anxiety, and depression to show that no one is alone and there is always someone willing to listen and help. He advocates for therapy and counseling and talks about the years of therapy that he has used to manage his mental health.
As a former collegiate athlete, Marc uses physical fitness to help with his mental health and encourages others to end the stigma surrounding mental health and spread awareness.
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Book a FREE 30-minute call with Philip here.
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Today you’ll learn all about:
[2:20] Marc's personal journey with ADHD, anxiety, and depression
[7:28] The importance of seeking help and support
[13:27] The potential misuse of exercise as an escape from problems
[17:52] The evolution of his relationship with fitness
[22:16] Philosophy on fitness and getting started with training
[29:41] Allan is grateful to Philip for his refreshing approach to nutrition coaching and how it has impacted his fitness
[30:15] Lessons from youth sports and collegiate athleticism
[35:39] Daily routine for maintaining physical and mental health
[40:12] The connection between lifting and running
[45:51] View on psychotherapy and counseling
[50:37] Debunking misconceptions and myths about mental health
[57:36] The question Marc wished Philip had asked
[59:17] Where to learn more about Marc
[1:00:00] Outro
Episode resources:
Marc's podcasts: Relatively Normal Podcast and 6 AM Run
Instagram: @paisant_fitness
LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/marcpaisant/
FREE 30-minute results breakthrough session with Philip ⬇️
https://witsandweights.com/free-call
Learn about 1-on-1 coaching ⬇️
https://witsandweights.com/coaching
Ask Philip anything ⬇️
IG: @witsandweights
Email: philip@witsandweights.com
Podcast: Q&A voicemail
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Transcript
Marc Paisant 00:00
The last time I checked everyone living and breathing and talking right now has a brain. Last time I checked, feelings come from your brain emotions come through your brain. So guess what? Mental health is, is always on the horizon with me.
Philip Pape 00:18
Welcome to the Wits & Weights podcast. I'm your host Philip pape, and this twice a week podcast is dedicated to helping you achieve physical self mastery by getting stronger. Optimizing your nutrition and upgrading your body composition will uncover science backed strategies for movement, metabolism, muscle and mindset with a skeptical eye on the fitness industry, so you can look and feel your absolute best. Let's dive right in. Wits & Weights community Welcome to another episode of the Wits & Weights Podcast. Today I'm chatting with certified personal trainer and mental health advocate Mark Pesach, you'll learn how Mark turned adversity into a mission to raise mental health awareness, including the essential role of physical fitness in maintaining mental health, and the importance of seeking support and maintaining balance. We'll explore misconceptions about and how we end the stigma surrounding mental health. Mark paisa is a certified personal trainer and the creator and host of the 6am run.com podcast, which I had the honor of being on recently, it's how we met and the relatively normal podcast. In his show, he shares his experiences with ADHD, anxiety and depression. He shows that no one is alone. And there's always someone willing to listen and assist when it comes to coping and managing all kinds of stress. He's an advocate for therapy and counseling and talks about his years of therapy that he's used to manage his mental health. As a former collegiate athlete, Mark uses physical fitness to assist with his mental health. He has learned that both can be combined and used to help work through any life issue. And his goal is to inspire others to ask for help. And to end the stigma when it comes to mental health and awareness. Mark. Thank you, man for doing this. And welcome to the show.
Marc Paisant 01:59
Philip, I appreciate it. This is my honor. I'm looking forward to the conversation.
Philip Pape 02:03
Cool, man. So I really do want to learn about your story. You know, you've turned this personal journey of yours managing HD, ADHD, anxiety, depression into a platform for raising mental health awareness. Can you walk us through the the key moments of that journey and how they've shaped your current mission?
Marc Paisant 02:21
Oh, wow, chemo? Well, you know, it's, it's, I mean, there are key moments. You're absolutely right. And it's the at the time, I didn't know there were key moments.
Philip Pape 02:32
I live in hindsight, right. Yeah, hindsight,
Marc Paisant 02:34
you know, growing up, and I won't spend too much time I'm a grown up, I was a very sensitive kid. I mean, I was an athlete, I was, you know, one, one half of a set of twins. And, you know, Michael, and I play basketball and soccer grown out went to the same schools, you know, for the most part had the same friends and, and we were just known as the twins, and we couldn't have been, you know, more different, because, you know, he had that quote, unquote, that alpha male personality that that macho guy, he, you know, he didn't really show a lot and he was really the, the, for, you know, for sake of not finding a better word, the masculine one and the traditional masculine one where I was the one that was, you know, what would have would be sensitive would would cry would, you know, I was the one that always wanted to, you know, show emotion. And, you know, growing up, I thought something was wrong with me, I thought that was the wrong thing. I thought I always tried to be like him, even into my early 20s and late 20s, probably honest with you, and there's a lot of comparison, internally, externally. He was he got better grades. He excelled in sports faster than I did. And then he got a lot more attention from the girls who were younger. So at that time, like self esteem is just, I mean, on the outside looking in, you would think everything's great with this guy, like he plays, you know, goalkeeper, he's plays basketball. He's got a lot of friends. He's very personable, he has, you know, he makes people laugh. But, yeah, the masking started early age. And then as I get into college, you know, a key point in college was me being thrown into a just those shark infested waters of everyone was the was the man at their school, you know, oh, my God, I you know, I was Allstate goalkeeper. I was, you know, all county and soccer. I was recruited and you go to a place like Clemson where everyone was that and more. And I really couldn't handle it to be honest with you. So that was my first take at therapy because I didn't know what else to do. I had no one to talk to. I didn't think anybody wanted to listen. And and I finally started just Just that journey to for self exploration and understanding that I could write my own story like I could, I could make my own happiness, I didn't have to look for external motivations. And now fast forward into my adulthood. You get out of college and you're, you probably do the same thing. You're looking for a job trying to put your stake in the ground, trying to figure out who you are. And I ate too much, because it made me happy. I thought, excuse me, I thought it made me happy. You know, without too much spend money, I didn't have drank too much. And ended up gaining over 100 pounds after college and absolutely just hating myself. And I don't use that term lightly. Just hating myself and was in a toxic like, everything toxic work environment, I wasn't happy with my body. I wasn't moving, I wasn't staying fit. I wasn't hanging around with the right people. And then, through a stroke of luck, I got involved with the right therapist. And on and off, I was with him for you know, almost 10 years, maybe 10 or 11 years, where he got to really know me and finally use those words. You know, anxiety and depression. Like I didn't want to use them.
Philip Pape 06:22
Yeah. That was gonna come up, right. Some people are either in denial or not even aware, they have something like, I wasn't
Marc Paisant 06:29
aware of the anxiety, like the depression is one of those words, or it's like, people throw it around. Like, it's, it's, you know, but, you know, I was given him just a, just a high level view of my life. And he says, oh, yeah, you're, that's high functioning anxiety. And I was like, what? And he explained it to me as like, I've had that since I can remember memory like I've had. And I'm like, No, not everyone thinks like this, or has these ongoing emotions and feelings. He's like, No, this is not everyone, but it's you. So let's work on it. So since then, I've I've, as you said, I've been an advocate for therapy. I've been advocate for people finding the right therapist, because a lot of people go in the first time and they just don't feel a vibe. They don't they don't feel comfortable with that therapist. And that's fine. I mean, there's no such thing as a bad therapist. There's just a bad therapist for you. And so that's kind of what got me here.
Philip Pape 07:28
Cool. Yeah, there's a few things there in that last comment you made about the right therapist getting involved with the right thing. I was going to ask about that. Because I didn't know if that was a deliberate choice of words. And it sounds like that's pretty critical to your past, and also how you help other people. So just dig into that a little bit more.
Marc Paisant 07:45
Yeah, well, you know, I had a, I had a night when I was working, I was in my mid to late 20s. And it's one of those nights, it was a bad night and, and I really thought about just swinging my truck in oncoming traffic, like I really thought like, I was like, someone has to listen to me and I, I didn't do it, I ended up calling my EAP of the company I worked for and talk to a wonderful woman on the phone. And she set me up with a therapist. And it was the quintessential therapist that you see where there's the couch and the corduroys and the loafers and the notepad and all that stuff. And you know, I'm talking to him. And I don't really feel like he's, he's hearing what I'm saying. Like, he's, he's, he's, he's doing his job, but I don't really feel like I have a connection to him. So the third session comes up, and he kind of ends it with with like, law. Okay, that's, uh, that's all the time we have. And that's all you know, you EAP affords. Exactly. And I listen, and people have to understand, like, when you're on when you're a therapist on these programs, you don't get paid as much per hour, like I understand that part. But you have the ability to be to say that and say, hey, I can refer you or you can go through your insurance company, I don't accept your insurer. Like, there's so many things you can do. So I had a really bad taste in my mouth for therapists at that time. And I thought that I was just I was just broken. And, you know, I got fired from from that job. And I totally deserved it. I totally deserved it. And then went to a job that had a manager who can't who cared about me and wanted me to succeed. But I still had these feelings that I was going through, and I go through EAP again. And that's when I find Dr. Nadler. And I remember going into like sixth or seventh session with him thinking, okay, when when is this going to end? Like, when is this going to end? And I said, you know, one time I was like, okay, so I guess we only got a couple more of these and he looks, he stops and he's like, What are you talking about? I was like, Well, you know, I mean, it's EAP and he's like, no one your insurance covers this and too, we have a lot of work to do. And I'm going to, I'm going to be with you until we, we take care of your triggers and get some coping mechanisms. But don't don't worry about that at all. And it totally like changed my perspective on therapy. And he's a great guy. And we've had a bunch of sessions. And it's one of those things where I'm glad I gave it another chance.
Philip Pape 10:23
One of the things I wanted to ask you about today was asking for help. And this, this, this ties into that because your story reminds me of so many I've heard where there's various forms of either incompetence, or gaslighting, or just not a good fit, you know, I mean, that can happen, right? It's just not a good fit. Even with therapy, I've heard stories where that just the approach that the therapist takes, even if they do listen, can make can be a game changer for one person to the other. So, I mean, who Who do you rely on most? Now? I guess that's one question I have. And then how can others reach out for help?
Marc Paisant 10:59
You know, that's, you know, I haven't been when I moved back down to Georgia, I, I, my therapist got his temporary license, so we could have virtual sessions for a time as I found another therapist, and I got hooked up with a great therapist down here. And I stayed with her for about a year, but then, you know, I noticed that our session sessions were going smoother and smoother. And I felt really good. I was in a good spot. And we, you know, we decided that okay, you know, it's been good. I'm available if you need me, but, you know, it's kind of like what I tell the, you know, the girls that I coach at a young age, I'm like, my job is not to coach you forever. Like, my job is to prepare you for the future. And I know that hurts. And I know some people like oh, we want you to like and I would love listen, I would love to coach them forever. But like that, that doesn't do anybody any good.
Philip Pape 11:52
That's a form of codependence Right. Exactly,
Marc Paisant 11:55
exactly. And I, I depend on myself, making sure that I'm one that I'm honest with myself, and that I look for the triggers. And I don't just look for time to heal all wounds, basically, like I used to where I would get depressed. And I would just say, okay, in a couple of days and a couple of weeks, I'll be fine. And just write it out, and just literally write it out. And it was a terrible couple of days, couple of weeks. But now you know, there is the positive self talk, I'm not so negative to myself anymore. When I when I speak and there's let's be honest, there's a gym, you know, there's running, there's forms of exercise, there's getting up and dancing at my desk, there's writing, there's, you know, talking to friends that I never used to do before, like, I used to get in a depressed state and go lay down and just lay in the dark for hours at a time. And just wait for it to go away. And I that's not hyperbole when I there was one time I sat on a couch for two days straight and only got up to like, check my work computer, and to go to the bathroom and eat two days straight. And I was just, I was beating myself up internally. I was like something as you need to do better. Like I wasn't treating myself like a friend. And now I've turned that around. And for lack of better term. I'm cool with myself now. We're good.
Philip Pape 13:24
Yeah, that's awesome. No, that's great. So the gym thing, here's what's interesting is that you were an athlete, young and you went to like you said, Clemson the shark infested waters and all that. And so it sounds like the gym or lifting exercise running whatever was not a coping mechanism, and it became one. So how did how did that happen?
Marc Paisant 13:44
That's correct. Well, you have to understand that in a lot of people do. Like from the time I was sick to the time I was 21, someone was telling me to stay in shape. And someone was telling me to go for a run. And someone was telling me that I had a game and I had to practice and, and I absolutely despise the gym. When I went to school when I was in college and high school, I despised it, I I didn't really care for it. It was something we were forced to do, I didn't see any benefit to it. And I kind of just went through the motions when I was there. Looking back, I probably lost a great opportunity to get myself in shape and use that as a coping mechanism. But you know, once I, when I was gaining the weight, I knew in the back of my head that something had to change. I didn't know what was going to change it. But something had to change. And I thought it was gonna be my wedding. And I had nine months 10 months to prepare for my wedding didn't lose a pound. And then, you know, my wife and I started talking about what our future is gonna look like and how many kids we're going to have. And I'm like, Okay, why I want to be around for them. And I want to be able to play with them and practice sports and just go outside and be a dad with them. And that's when it clicked. And I, I just started running like I literally is like the Forrest Gump thing I just started running like it was hard as hell. But I did it. And the only looking back, there was two things that I did, I'm not going to say I did wrong, because that'd be critical. I'm just going to say I didn't know any better. One was the shoes I was running in, I was 653 20. Running in some shoes with no support. Nothing has Nike, I wear Nikes now, and sock and ease, but I was running in the wrong ones. And I was running away from my day when I went on my runs. So basically, if I'd be stressed at work, if I'd be stressed at home, I just, I'm gonna go for a run and forget about it. And I know some people are listening to like, oh, that's what I do. That's a good thing to do. The only thing about that, for me at least is that I still had to come back to that. I still I so it ruined my burn at the end. Like I feel good that I sit back down like crap I still have this call to get on are still have to deal with this. So
Philip Pape 16:04
where's the fine line there? Right between this unhealthy escape? And how escape? Where is that? Correct?
Marc Paisant 16:11
And, you know, the unhealthy escape is basically getting something that stresses you out and saying, You know what, put my shoes on? I'm going because you're taking that into taking that negative energy. And what I've done, I've kind of flipped it is I've I've seen the stressor come the trigger come and I've taken a moment to put perspective around it. How big is this? Is this going to ruin my day? Is this going to burn the house down? Is this, you know, whatever? Oh, it's not okay, I need to reframe, I need to refresh. Let me go for the Romney hit the gym, and I'm going to lean into it. And what happens nine times out of 10, especially on my runs, is if I have something that is complex, that I need to really think about all my runs, I get this, this sense of urgency and this reframing of the issue and I come back and I'm like, Oh, I got it now. Or at least I'm calmer now. I don't, I don't try to not think about it during my run. I actually lean into it now. And use
Philip Pape 17:11
the run to reframe it. Oh, I love that. That is really I could see, I could definitely see that from from my personal experience when I'm like doing heavy squats or going for a walk, or where you're just processing and you're processing. It's a form of meditation in a way, you know, even though you're exactly
Marc Paisant 17:26
exactly what it is exactly what it is.
Philip Pape 17:28
Yeah. So going back a little bit, you talked about a few different phases first, being forced to do stuff, which I get that especially as we're kids, I mean, just just a trivial example, I grew up in South Florida, and they made us take Spanish when I was a kid. And I just rebelled. I did not want to learn it. And so now in hindsight, I'm like, I should have learned it, I would have been, but you know, you're a kid, there's so many things that are different at that age. Then later on, you said that you had an incentive of your wedding, but it wasn't enough, which is what we might call that an extrinsic motivator and it just wasn't sufficient to overcome the friction against it. And then being a parent to help it click right. And I mean, to me that that's there's a depth of meaning there that didn't exist. Otherwise. I mean, how just exploring that a little more. What what do you think was the difference? Because for some people, a wedding is enough, perhaps, at least in the short term.
Marc Paisant 18:22
Yeah. I, I, you know, my, my wife had before we got married, we were together for 10 years, and it's not as easy as just being together. Like, she graduated the year before me. We live separately. We live in different states. It's like when you when you add it all up, we were together, probably less than five are less than four together. But we were pretty, you know, we knew each other we were comfortable with each other like there's there was nothing we didn't talk about. She saw me at the skinniest and she saw me gain this weight. She was not staying in shape either. But she liked salads. And I liked hamburgers. So I mean you can you can understand if no one person is like I really feel like a good salad. I'm like, Okay, you get that I'm gonna get the hamburger and fries. Which one which one is going to gain the weight so it's not like either of us were in great shape. So, you know, although in our wedding photos like she looks amazing and I look like I'm 320 pounds but it is what it is so but you know it got to a point you know, we're living together. We're married. You know we we have an apartment and we're saving up for our first house. And like life is starting to click because it's like wait a second like you're you. You got married like you're about to own a home. Your kids is net like it all started like something hit me where it was like, I want to coach like I want to be a cool I want To be a good dad, I want to be the dad that goes out and I want to I want to go to the beach with them. There's so many things that I want to do with these kids that these people I don't know yet. But I don't have the energy to even walk for five minutes now. Like, I don't have I'm not comfortable taking off my shirt at a beach right now. Like, it's, and I'm not saying yeah, if you're a big guy, don't do that, like live your life, like love yourself. Like, um, you know, whatever. Wait, I was right now, I'll tell you right now be cool with that. But I was like, I started to think about my time as a kid, and what my parents did for me, and my mother was overweight. And then she lost a bunch of weight. And she started hanging out with us. And my dad was always in shape. And he was with us. And I think it just started to click like, I, I want to be the father like my dad was. And I can't do that. If walking five minutes, makes my ankles hurt. Or waking up in the morning, I can't I have to stretch my back. Because it's so tight. It's just all these things kind of just threw themselves at me at once. And I said, Okay, I got to, I got to do better, I got to do better. And the biggest part of that actually wasn't even the running. It was really the nutrition. Yeah. And that was a huge part of it. And my wife helped me out a lot with that we downloaded the app, we started counting calories, we started counting, you know, carbs, and sugars and sodium, things like that. And, you know, once I made that switch, like I dropped 75 pounds in nine months.
Philip Pape 21:30
Yeah, way to do it. Yep. However you did it, you found a way. But roughly how well how old? Were you that if I could ask.
Marc Paisant 21:38
So I got married when I was 31. And this all started to happen around 3031 or 32. So right as delivery right after my wedding. So we It all happened very quickly,
Philip Pape 21:54
it seems the same seems things seem to accumulate, you know, in through your teens and 20s, where you make all the choices that don't necessarily have consequences, and then they start catching up, and you're always in your 30s, around 40. It seems I hear I hear these stories. So let's talk a little bit about your routine. Because I do want to get into the physical fitness side. You've you've alluded to things here. And there. You've alluded to running and and your nutrition. What is what is your philosophy? What is your recommendation on working out for people who are listening in general? How does someone get started? Do they go to the gym? What did they do to get get going?
Marc Paisant 22:28
Well, I say well, I you know, I went through a couple of different things. And of course, you know, I did the whole the I don't know if I can name drop with a gym that ends in olds and starts with a G. But I did the whole Hey, come in and try us for you know, a week for free and you get in there like how did I end up with a three year contract? Like what happened? And so I started there, and it just didn't work out because I went to I'm a first time gym goer, this is back in my 20s. And I'm going in at six o'clock at night after work. And it's like everyone goes this clock after work. So couldn't find the machine I wanted didn't know what I want to do I want to run on the treadmill do I want to do Stairmaster? Did I want to do weights, I didn't know what to do with the weight other than benchpress. I didn't know anything. So that stopped Of course. And then so so basically,
Philip Pape 23:21
you fit into the exact target market of big costumes cover and then stop coming, please.
Marc Paisant 23:28
That was that was me. That was me. And so I just stopped going. And then I started up again. This time I had a friend going with me every day, but or every other day, excuse me. But you know, neither one of us knew we were doing and I was I was getting in better shape, but I wasn't eating well. And so that's you fast forward to me starting to run. And I will say this about anybody who who wants to run or get into a fitness program. Don't join the gym upfront, because it involves discipline, it involves commitment. Test yourself, if for 30 days, you can go for a walk for 30 minutes, five times a week. If you can do that, if you can have that discipline, then maybe try the gym. But I would not say go to a gym upfront and start going unless your plan is to get a personal trainer. Because at least that way you will learn what you're doing. But of course now we're talking about spending more money. And people might not want to do that.
Philip Pape 24:34
But hold on. So I think you're hitting on something very important for people, right? Because I didn't have anything stick until I did CrossFit like 10 years ago and that was because there's a coach telling you kind of telling you what to do. Of course I wanted them to tell what to do. Yeah, and a structure. There's some structure because we do like to go out for the get the shiny thing, even if it's food tracking. If we don't know what we're doing, we just get an app and we just go it may not be the smartest approach until We take that one first step, okay, I'm gonna try protein, or I'm gonna do this one thing, you know, habit stacking the traditional, like, take baby steps and then eventually build. So I think that's really important. So don't necessarily just go to the gym, figure out what you want to do and take one step first and eventually get there. Yeah,
Marc Paisant 25:14
yep. And a lot of us have friends that have gym memberships that they tell us all the time, they're going to the gym, like, if that is the case, go as a guest a couple times, you know, go don't just go and jump in, you know, you know, headfirst, because that's where most of the failure comes from. And it's kind of like I equate it to a New Year's resolution where, you know, every year someone has decided that they're going to get in shape, they're going to eat, right, they're going to save money, they're going to get the new job they're going to marry there are all these like, it's all these things on like, what do you think changes you from December 31 to January 1, like you're the same person. So it has to be baby steps. And the reason I say this is, one, I've been through it, and two, this is how you set yourself up for success. This is how you do it. Now there is someone who I know people personally who have gotten a gym membership January 1, and then you see them in June, you're like, oh my god, you did it. But of the people who do that, seven, seven out of 10 of them revert back because it's not sustainable. What they're doing, what we're trying to do is build sustainability. And that's what a lot of coaches will talk to you about, once you've reached your target weight, target goals, target fitness level, whatever it is, like the good coach will have already talked to you about sustainability before then. And that's what you know, I'm, I'm, you know, training my sister right now. And, you know, she's made very good progress. In the few months, we've been together. But at the beginning, she had this unhealthy approach to it, where she just wanted to, like, lose this part of her body and lose his weight and fit into this and blah, blah, blah. And I told her, I was like I can, I can get you down in weight, if that's what you want. But one, I guarantee you're not going to like me, and two, it's not going to be sustainable. Like if you want to do hard cardio every day, and then, you know, limit your limit your calories to 1000. Like, we can do that. But you're gonna be hungry all the time, you're going to be grumpy, your mind fog, it's going to be hard to work. It's gonna be, you know, I went through, I went through nine months of that,
Philip Pape 27:27
tell me and tell me about it. Yeah, and you know, because you said getting a trainer can be not a shortcut. But getting a trainer can at least help you go to the gym or do a program or something like that, as a coach, I would never have somebody dieting, until at least six to eight weeks in. And that's a coach. And that's somebody who I'm gonna get you the result as fast as possible, versus doing it yourself. And yet, still, you're not going to be dieting for at least six to eight weeks, if at all. Because you may, you may realize building muscle is more fun. But
Marc Paisant 27:53
you know, the only the only thing which I asked my sister to change is is when she ate and to understand where the sugars are coming from. Because a lot of people will, they'll eat a great protein filled breakfast, they'll, you know, they may do a small lunch and then do a healthy dinner and then have two glasses of wine every night. To say Can she ate when she ate when she ate and the sugar where the sugar is coming from?
Philip Pape 28:21
Was the wind to get her to get her to just be aware that she's eating when she didn't realize she was like unconsciously
Marc Paisant 28:27
Correct. Correct. Yeah. So she, you know, she, she has the tendency to be a night owl sometimes. And of course, when you're a night owl, you snack and you have another glass of wine. And it's like, you don't see anything of it. But it's like there's you're kind of taking away your gains if you if you do that. And you know the thing about the coaching and the thing about the personal training is not telling somebody that they can't do it. Like I'm not going to tell you you can't do it. But the fact of the matter is that you might not know how to right now, like I didn't know how to cope with my triggers until I went to a therapist. I didn't even realize I had high functioning anxiety and no, that was the thing. You know, it took another therapist to kind of say, hey, talk to your, your, your doctor about ADHD because from what you're telling me? Yeah, so again, we're not experts in everything in our life. Like it hurts to say it to a lot of us. But you know that stuff
Philip Pape 29:31
the more that you acknowledge that that you're not experts in almost everything, the more you can grow, right because then you're gonna seek out those experts to help you out. Yeah.
29:42
Hi, this is Al and I just want to give a shout out to Philip Pape Wits & Weights for his nutritional coaching. His coaching is based upon science research, intellect and wisdom. His coaching is safe, supportive, connecting, and it actually has helped raise I set my compass in terms of how I direct my health, the action steps I do, and really, really has helped me regain trust and belief in what my body can do and how my body can change.
Marc Paisant 30:15
The team that I coached the soccer team I didn't replace was there, the team name is Sky Blue after the wsa team, but our jerseys are purple. So the girls name themselves the grapes, the savage grape, so I think it was great. So we thought of it, we thought of an acronym for grapes, and the A in the grapes stands for except that you don't know everything. That is what it stands for. Because once you accept that, then you're open to learning. You're literally opening to open to learning. And, you know, I started running heavy to begin with, and I didn't want to go, I fell in love with it. I really did. But I also fell in love with limiting my calories and looking at that scale every morning. And if it did not go down by at least half a pound every day. I thought I failed.
Philip Pape 31:06
Okay, so we're saying you care. This was later or this is you cared some of your mental health?
Marc Paisant 31:11
Yes, this is getting? Yeah, this is at the beginning of my fitness journey. So when I started to run in, I'm thinking I'm doing the right thing at the end. The thing about it, Philip, is that people are seeing, you know, saying Oh, Mark, good job, you're looking good. You're looking great sharp, keep it up, keep it up. So I'm here in that and I'm getting validation. And I'm like running more. I do a 5k I do a 10k I do a half marathon like I'm killing it. And then one day I, I hear a snap in my foot when I'm running. And I'm like nuts. It's not that bad. It's not that bad. I'll walk home and I'll just ice it. I'll be good. A week goes by I can't I can't walk on it. Go to podiatrist. He's like, Oh, I think he just did this. That's wrap it wraps it. And you know, I go on vacation, I come back, still swollen. I go to finally go to ortho check. Yeah, you broke it. You broke him. And you're gonna need surgery, I need two pens in your foot. And I was like, So when can I run like that? He's like, Well, after the surgery, you gonna be in a soft cast for two weeks, then you're going to be in a hard cast for six weeks, and you're going to be in a walking boot for six weeks in the UPnP T for three or four months. So he's like, minimum, six to nine months. And I was like, him I was so my life was running at that time I had but like you talk about CrossFit. And the people who are just like, that's a religion running was my religion, I could do like, I didn't want to go to the gym, people like you should try swimming, I don't want to swim, I want to run
Philip Pape 32:59
bike. And now it's just ripped away from you
Marc Paisant 33:03
ripped away from me. So I go through that process, I gained about 40 pounds back. And I go to the physical therapy and it's just it's not feeling right. My foot and ankle are just not I'm still in pain. And I'm pushing and pushing myself through runs every run hurts. So finally go back to my doctor. I'm just like, I don't I don't know what else is going on. And he tells me like I need to go back in like, I don't know what happened, I need to go back in and show me where the pain is real quick. And I showed him on the side of my foot. So we go on ankle and he goes in. And he gives me a micro fracture and cleans up a bunch of cartilage damage. And it was like, it was just thank God, like he said, Ask that one extra question. And this was, this is you know, scoping. So it was you know, in and out. And within two weeks I was walking. It was like, all the pain is gone. All the pain is gone. started running again. And this is where like things get bad. Because I start starving myself. And I start running about 120 to 150 miles a week. I'm 6565 and I get down to 206. And I still want it and my wife looks at me and people look at me like okay, like you're good. And I looked at myself in the mirror. I'm like I still don't like this. Like I didn't like 320 I don't like 206 Something's not clicking. And finally one day I said and I had been to the gym again. Same thing I told you before is I just didn't. I didn't know what to do. I was like, I'm just gonna do it. I'm just gonna do the physical. I took the two Time to work on my mental health with a therapist who was a mental coach, I need to do the same thing for my physical health. And I have never, ever looked back, it was the best decision I have made in the past couple of years in my life, because one I love to learn, I'm always in a growth mindset and to just, you know, being physically strong and mentally strong at the same time, like I can't, I can't really explain that feeling like it is it is euphoric. Because I was doing one, but not the other. End. Now I'm doing both. So
Philip Pape 35:40
I'm missing a little bit of a piece of the puzzle here because I want to connect the physical mental health, which comes first. And maybe that that is too simplistic, but from the point you got your foot repaired, but then you started doing all this running and losing all this weight. And then you said, you got a coach, and then never looked back on that. So the feeling the specifics on that piece for us.
Marc Paisant 36:02
So, you know, we, you know, I was in the DC metro area. And we, you know, a few years ago, I lost my mom and she and she lived down here and my my wife had made a decision that we wanted to move down here to be closer to my family and her family. And you know, so the stress of the move, the stress of getting kids into new schools is like everything, I wasn't able to work out that much. And, you know, started to gain a little weight, and then I lost it by running. And then, you know, it was doing a lot of work at that specific time, mentally. Like I was in therapy. I was working on my mental health, I was making sure I was taking care of that every day in the mirror, whether I was a 206 to 15 to 25 to 35 back to 220 back and you see where this is going because that's one of the most unhealthiest things to do is Yo yo, I just never was something was in my head. I knew something was missing. I knew something was missing. And you know, COVID hits and no one's going to the gym. You know, I'm just running and still, I wish I could I wish I could verbalize like the feeling in my head because don't get me wrong. I looked in shape. I looked in shape. I looked happy. You would think he's going to therapy. He's good. But my body I didn't like my body. I didn't like it. And yeah, I just one day thing about the thing about runners and if you're a runner, I apologize. But you know this already, if you just run you know, you're pretty weak. Like that's it is what it is like you're pretty weak. You have your graded endurance, like you're really using a lot of the long muscles and you've got to steal, but oh my goodness, like, I went to benchpress and the you know, I put just one plate on and I was like, oh my god, this is heavy. This is that. Why is this so heavy?
Philip Pape 38:02
Okay, so that's what we're talking about a strength training, because that's what I didn't. I didn't connect the dots. Okay.
Marc Paisant 38:06
Yeah, it was strength training. And so yeah, exactly. So and, you know, I didn't and I made the decision. I was like, I'm gonna, you know, and what happened? And I'll tell you, right, what would happen is I went into my first training session. And it was only 30 minutes. And I felt like I had been there for hours because this guy was just killing me. I thought he was killing me. But I just I was just weak at the moment. But, you know, he automatically challenged me, just like therapists challenge their, their, their clients, to look for triggers to you know, be nice to themselves to open up be vulnerable, things like that. That was the first time that someone was challenging me that I didn't really have. I wasn't responsible for going like he wasn't a coach and the fact that my how my high school and my soccer my college coach was that I was I had to go to practice. But he was kind of challenging me to be a better version of myself. And I started to look at that I'm like, There's something here. There's something here that I can connect to what I'm doing in the rest of my life. And I think a lot of people miss that point filled by and a lot of people miss the fact that they see the gym as this place where people go to get big and vanity and they they, they see that but it's like, you know what this is? This is a place where people go to be at peace. You know, this is a part of my day. This is a part of, of, you know, my morning routine. This is a part of my relationship with my sister. You know, this is a part of, you know, me being a better version of myself. And I think people don't realize that until they're involved with it.
Philip Pape 39:53
Yeah, man. I totally agree. I totally agree that and those of us who will I was never an athlete and then it wasn't a vanity thing, because I just never aspire, thought I could aspire to that. And then when I got into lifting, you know, definitely the side benefits are a physical manifestation of your health. But, you know, we're, I don't know, if we were talking here, yeah, early in the show about meditation about lifting being a form of meditation. And actually, my friend Carl and I, we both know, we're talking about that on his show, or my show one of our shows about how you just get in the moment. And it's not just the act, right, it's that you are changing something about you permanently, permanently, and growing. And I guess I don't know much about running other than I've done it over the years and never liked it. To an extent I like sprinting, I'll be honest, but you can only I guess you can only progress so much in that way. Doing running is that is that the contrast for me because I wanted people to make a very concrete contrast with like maybe the physiological connection between lifting something heavy, being that human experience being in the moment, and what you get out of it and compare it to other forms of movement.
Marc Paisant 41:04
I want people to, to understand this wholeheartedly. Lifting, helps your runs, literally helps them it's not hyper. It's not me just saying it. But anyone who's listening, who's a runner understands that feeling of like, you know, we have when you start running, you're like, Oh, this is so hard. How do I do this, and you have this thought in your head, like, okay, it's gonna get easier and easier and easier. The runs, if you don't do weight training, the runs never get easier, you literally are just pushing yourself through all the time. Like, I literally thought to myself, like, okay, it's gonna eat it. And mentally, I was just exhausted, because I'm telling myself to keep going and keep going and keep going. Because you don't understand like how much of your core, how much of your hips, how much of your upper body that you actually use when you're running. And I started to build that little bit of core strength. In the first couple months of working out in the gym. Every one of my runs was easier. Every one of my runs was easy. And I was going the same speed going the same distances. And it was all because I built up the other muscles in my legs, my core strength. And I tell you right now, running doesn't really help you. With the weights. Actually, it does the opposite. It kind of kills your gains, I'm sorry, it's true. It does, I've lived it. But lifting helps your runs. It's amazing. And what people don't understand is there's a big thing, especially with women that say I don't want to get bulky, I don't want to get bought, I don't think people really understand what it takes to bulk. Like none of us are going out eating 1000s of calories that we need to burn off every day. Like you don't just bulk by going to the gym every day, like bulk about your nutrition. Exactly. But I tell you what, if you are eating correctly, and you know, running burns all your carbs and all your sugar and you put it right back in your body. But if you do the right thing and keep your heart rate at the right levels, and you will build that muscle that you've that you've absolutely killed running. And because think about it, it's physiological. And you know this already, like when you run you have little micro tears in your muscles, just like the same when you're lifting weights. But when you run like when you're burning those calories, those your sugars and carbs your body wants those immediately. So you put those right back in it does not help your muscles rebuild your literally your muscles. Yeah, but when you do the weight portion of it, and your body and you fill that with proteins, amino acids, the fats, things like that, and you actually start building that muscle. It it's an it's an amazing feeling. And I think people really should at least try that. You don't have to go heavy like no one's saying you go heavy. I'm not telling you to
Philip Pape 44:22
go really heavy. Relative you know,
Marc Paisant 44:25
I mean, if you don't start with three plates on your squat, yeah. Are we even talking? No, but it's like and the cool thing about people think I gotta get a trainer every day that you can get a trainer for once a week for 30 minutes. Literally once a week for 30 minutes and that will be enough for a lot of people that will be enough. And trainers are great too. They're like if you ever need any help, like text me or call me like trainers are all my trainers we're friends now his daughter plays on a basketball program that I daughter play we see each other like we're friends now we're he's cool as hell. So Oh,
Philip Pape 45:01
just having somebody there, you could ask a question to add sort of the when it comes down to because I know, even to this day, I'm in a barbell club that has a really good trainer, and I've squatted 1000s of times. And yet Sal said in the video, and there's some little thing he'll see, so it's worth it. For sure. Yep. Yep. Yeah, man. Yeah, no, I could talk about lifting all day. With the running. One other thing came to mind is how muscles are also a glycogen sink. You know? So when we're talking about blood sugar control and all that it's really, really helpful. But running I mean, it's, it's you're doing, you're doing a million partial squats, right? As as you run. So even if you don't run all the sudden you get stronger, everything in your life, including running just feels lighter and easier. Yes. Not only all of that, like we want to be capable. So and then it ties into the mental health. So let's segue back to back to that we talked about mental health. We talked about psychotherapy and counseling, kind of the more serious aspect of when people have a real issue that they have to deal with. How can someone be aware of that and know that they need counseling? And then what are your thoughts on the psychotherapy? We talked about it a little bit, but just want to touch on that?
Marc Paisant 46:13
Well, here, I'll start by saying this, everyone, everyone could benefit from counseling or therapy, everyone could do it. Like it's not. When when you mentioned that I'm trying to get rid of the stigma on mental health, like, part of that is understanding that when we bring up mental health, it doesn't have to be this depressing. Sad. Oh, my gosh, yeah. And the thing, it's not, it's not you, it's like we see it everywhere, where it's everything that happens negative in the world, or in our lives. Like, that's when we start talking about mental health. That's when we start talking about oh, have you do you see a counselor that's, but that's like that, shouldn't I don't just go to the gym when I'm weak. You know, I'm gonna I went today, and I think I'm pretty strong like, but because it's that maintain that maintenance of your life. So what I want people to understand is that you don't have to be going through life altering changes, you don't have to have, you know, witnessed the death of a family member or just gotten laid off or, or broken up with your significant other or, you know, whatever. To really talk about your mental health, mental health is when someone's interviewing for a job and they feel those butterflies in their stomach. You know, it's when you wake up in the morning, you think, Okay, I gotta, today is going to be the day that I you know, it's mental health is all the time. And that's why I think it's so important to at least continue this discussion. And I know people think that I probably talk about it too much. And honestly, I don't care because I want to talk about it more and I want people to be okay, talking about and being vulnerable. And it's, you know, it's nothing that has to be prefaced with like something okay, hey, guess what I'm gonna I really want to talk to you about mental like, no, it's, it's, it's you coming in and being honest with your loved ones and telling them that you're stressed, telling them that you don't feel up to it today? Being honest, and how many times that we forced ourselves to do things that we did not want to do? And the only stories we hear about in regard to that or is, is I didn't want to do that, but I did it. I'm glad I did. We never hear the stories of that. I didn't want to do that. I did it. And I feel worse for doing it. We don't hear those because no one talks about that one. That's the one I want to hear about. Because someone didn't listen, you didn't listen to yourself you got like it's one of those things where yes, you know, behavioral based cognitive based therapy, psychotherapy, all that stuff is great, you know, Medic, getting the right medication, making sure people that are bipolar, get the right medication, or major depressive episodes and all this stuff. Like I want that to of course be a focal point I want people those people to be taken care of. At the same time. I want people to understand that. The last time I checked everyone living and breathing and talking right now has a brain. Last time I checked, feelings come from your brain emotions come through your brain. So guess what? Mental health is? is always on the horizon with me.
Philip Pape 49:39
So many thoughts, you sparked all these synapses in my brain? Because Oh, man, okay, so there's a bunch of things. I'm gonna break this down. The first thing the idea that mental health is actually the root of everything is that's kind of where I'm glad you kind of ended there. Because we are talking about physical health, but none of that means anything unless you have this brain that lets you think and control your muscles and control your hormones. And I mean, it does everything right, you think my hormones are controls that controls everything, let alone the amazing creative thinking and ability to empathize and the ability to like know what other people are thinking, which is unique probably to humans, we think maybe dolphins can do it or something. And in fact, there's some aspect of human evolution, if you look at how only tribes survived, there's a genetic component to being social creatures using our mind and understanding others minds anyway, I'm going off on philosophy or put a few other things. I used to be the type of guy that was very cynical about formal men's formal psychotherapy. And, you know, I use the word shrink, disparagingly in the past, and so on. I don't do that anymore. But I've also never sought formal therapy. However, in the last year and a half, two years since I've been in this nutrition, coaching space, doing podcasting, and talking to a lot of people, especially people who caused me to be more introspective like you, Carl, and many other people that I've met, who also inspired me to look into positive psychology, which is the idea of not always focusing on all the ills of mankind. But even when there aren't ills that we still need to elevate ourselves, I realized that therapy is all around us, if we look for it, it's our spouses, it's our friends. When you help somebody else, the evidence shows you get the biggest boost of happiness just from helping somebody. And then again, podcasting. So I just this is my take away, it's like a rune big revelation. And I want people to hear that, like everybody can be your therapy therapist, so to speak, without seeking formal therapy. But the social connection and relatedness is probably the key that the glue, the glue that holds it all together. What do you think about my read?
Marc Paisant 51:49
Definitely is it definitely isn't, I want people to understand, like the first episode of relatively normal was titled, be a friend. And what I meant what I meant by that is, think and it takes intent by people need to be intentional with this. But yeah, take just the three words. How are you? How many times that's that said in a day? How many times you hear that in a week? How many times? How's it going? What's up? You know, whatever it is? And how many times we actually answer that question. We rarely do we rarely come off cliche, or in passing whatever. And, you know, my how're yous are authentic, like, I want to know, and I think more people should want to know, because I forgot who said it to me Lastly, but you know, it, you know, we, I say it all the time, as you never know, what someone is going through. Like, think about, think about, maybe this conversation is the one that saved somebody, you know, maybe this time I spend is what gets somebody, you know, over the hump. And I'm not I don't mean to put pressure on people. Like that's not the point of all this. What I mean to do is, is have people really be intentional with not just the words they say, but the conversations they have, because this is a thing that happens all the time, and especially around men, like women do it all the time, but especially with men in corporate environments. So she went around, is that think about I want everybody listening to like the next meeting, you're at the next conversation you have with multiple people. I want you to take just count of how many times someone speaks right after someone stopped speaking, like literally right after. And then think to yourself, there's no way they could have paid attention or been listening to what they were saying. They were just waiting for their turn to talk. That's all they were doing. And, you know, men kind of do it as banter because it's fun. We go back and forth. We're learning. We're saying movie lines, and we're being stupid and silly. But I can't tell you how many times early in my career, early in my life where I would be in the circles and people will be talking it'd be a serious conversation. And right when someone would talk about something that affected them, the next person would talk about something that affected them to Oh, yeah, I know exactly. Talking about this happened to me and blah, blah, blah. It's like, wait a second, wait a second, wait a second. Slow down. We need to go over with this person just was vulnerable enough to tell us about. Let's not just jump into comparisons. And to be honest with you, I really don't care what you have to say right now because my friend is hurting. I don't want to jump in and say I'm guilty of this. I used to do it. But it's one of those things where you have have to be intentional with as this person is speaking, you're taking in what they're saying you're being an active listener, and then you're pausing for a moment after they're done talking, because you want to take it in. And these are the things that you kind of learn, once you do it long enough, and once you start, like, that's what a friend does, a friend doesn't just jump in to say, hey, the same thing happened to me. This is what I did. You should do it, too. It worked like a charm. And it's like, Oh, thank God. I mean, and it's, you know, man, we're built to be like, we're built to be problem solvers. I understand that we shouldn't stop doing that. But at the same time, it's like, listen, not, not every you know, screw needs your screwdriver. Like sometimes you need to sit back and watch somebody else fix their own problems, because that's what they want to do.
Philip Pape 55:55
You got me very hyper conscious right now about my listening skills with everything you just said. Because that is so intense, man. Like, it's true that we interrupt and we jump to conclusions and caught husbands and wives. It's just a classic stereotype of, I immediately want to fix my wife's problem as soon as she and look now I'm talking about myself, but I think I am really
Marc Paisant 56:21
my wife called me out. My wife called me out on that she literally did, because we were talking about love languages and what she needs and the quality time she needs. And she told me, she's like, You don't, you don't really listen to what I'm saying. You cut me off a lot. And then it goes off the rails. And I'm like, oh, yeah, yeah, I do that. I do that. So now I'm very conscious about getting into a mood where it's like, she is talking. She is explaining her day, she's nice enough to include me in her decompression of her day. Like that's, that's that that's only I get that like, only I get that in this world. I'm the only one that gets that. And I'm taking this for granted. So, yeah, it really is. It really is.
Philip Pape 57:05
Wow, that's a lot for people to think about and all this stuff. I would have said a few years ago, that doesn't matter for your physical health. And I completely the opposite now, right? Like just and you put it in perspective throughout this, this conversation. So I've had about five or 10. Other questions I could have asked. But since we're short on time, I'm going to leave you with my favorite penultimate question mark. And that is, is there something you wish I had asked you in? What is your answer? Um,
Marc Paisant 57:35
something I wish you had, you know, I wish you had asked me. How are you? Now I'm kidding, I'm joking.
Philip Pape 57:48
But, you know, what, we could have just said a guy, like we always do.
Marc Paisant 57:52
I'm joking. You know, you know, I wish you would ask me like how this whole change in my perspective and becoming that whole mind body connection has affected my relationships with with people in my life. Because, you know, it's, I'll be honest with you, my, my circle has gotten smaller and smaller, as I've learned more about myself. But as you start to figure out, where's the where's the positive energy coming from? Because I'm a big, I become an energy person, not the guy who's gonna go buy crystals and lay them out. And I'm not vegan. I'm not gonna, I'm just kidding. I'm joking. I don't want everybody giddy at me. But
Philip Pape 58:31
I think you'd lost zero subscribers of this podcast, so
Marc Paisant 58:35
good. So but you know, I'm all about the energy I put out, and the energy I get in, and I think about what is this person adding to my life? Because I know I'm confident enough to know that I add to other people's lives. And that's not me being cocky. That's just me knowing what I'm worth. So I think, what is this person and my my circle is actually quite small now. So that's the only thing I wish you would ask, but I think I answered it. Now you
Philip Pape 59:04
answered it. And that's a reminder that it's not about how many friends we have on social media, or how many friends we think we have in real life if they're not real true friends that add value to us and vice versa. So great message. All right, man. Well, where can listeners learn more about you?
Marc Paisant 59:19
Well, I'm usually on either Instagram or LinkedIn. I do a lot of work on LinkedIn because I like that platform and but IG you can find me at pays not underscore fitness for the physical fitness part. And you just go to a relatively normal podcast on IG to find more about that. And of course, you can head up to 6am run on Instagram, as I am the ambassador and host of that show too. So we're doing a lot with 6am run right now. So I really liked that company. And I think it's not just about running a lot to do with running has run in the title but you know, really good people really good community and a lot of good motivation there. I
Philip Pape 1:00:00
agree. Yeah. encourage everybody who's listening to follow those podcasts. Very easy to do right now. I was on 6am which is which I was surprised because I don't run. And you're like, This is not just a running POC and it worked out really well because I got to meet you very special guy with a wonderful story. And I think people get a lot from this episode. So thank you so much for coming on.
Marc Paisant 1:00:21
I appreciate it. Phil, let me take care of yourself.
Philip Pape 1:00:25
Thank you for tuning in to another episode of Wits & Weights. If you found value in today's episode, and know someone else who's looking to level up their Wits & Weights. Please take a moment to share this episode with them. And make sure to hit the Follow button in your podcast platform right now to catch the next episode. Until then, stay strong.
Ep 84: Why Working Out LESS Burns More Calories and Boosts Your Metabolism and Fat Loss
Can you supercharge your metabolism and maximize fat loss with LESS exercise? In today's episode, we talk about the four key components of metabolism and debunk the myth that more exercise equals more calories burned. We also dive into the drawbacks of over-exercising and the role muscle tissue plays in boosting metabolism.
Can you supercharge your metabolism and maximize fat loss with LESS exercise? In today's episode, we talk about the four key components of metabolism and debunk the myth that more exercise equals more calories burned. We also dive into the drawbacks of over-exercising and the role muscle tissue plays in boosting metabolism.
We talk about strength and cardio training, underlining the multiple benefits of cardio, from enhancing heart health to boosting lung capacity, while also spotlighting the lesser-known yet equally important gains from walking. Overall, you'll learn how to make your workouts not just rigorous but efficient and sustainable for building muscle, losing fat, and improving your body composition.
Tune in to this episode and tap into the science of getting fit.
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Book a FREE 30-minute call with Philip here.
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Today you’ll learn all about:
[1:55] Reading of two 5-star reviews
[3:23] Components of metabolism
[4:49] Exercising more to burn calories
[7:16] The importance of strength training and muscle
[8:58] Tony shares what he likes about Philip and the Wits & Weights community
[11:26] Constrained energy model
[13:43] Benefits of working out less
[15:26] Effective amount of cardio
[19:04] What is a results breakthrough session, and how to get a free call
[20:37] Outro
FREE 30-minute results breakthrough session with Philip ⬇️
https://witsandweights.com/free-call
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Ask Philip anything ⬇️
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Transcript
Philip Pape 00:00
So if you're running a lot, right, if you're a marathon runner, that's the extreme. But even if you're just running on a regular basis, your body's gonna adapt to that. It's going to become more calorie efficient. And so it is going to burn fewer extra calories for extra, every extra calorie of work put into it, and it becomes less and less efficient. Welcome to the Wits & Weights podcast. I'm your host, Philip pape, and this twice a week podcast is dedicated to helping you achieve physical self mastery by getting stronger. Optimizing your nutrition and upgrading your body composition will uncover science backed strategies for movement, metabolism, muscle and mindset with a skeptical eye on the fitness industry. So you can look and feel your absolute best. Let's dive right in. Wits & Weights community Welcome to another solo episode of the Wits & Weights podcast. I hope you enjoyed our last episode 83 with Christopher Mar, where we explored stress management and the fascinating intersection of eastern and western medicine in the context of your body's well being today for Episode 84, titled Why working out less burns more calories and boosts your metabolism and fat loss. We are myth busting the idea that the more you workout, the higher your expenditure, or your daily calories burned, more exercise, more cardio, more soreness, more sweat more suffering, these are not necessary. And in fact exercise are what we're going to use, we're going to use the word training from here on out can be both intrinsically rewarding and be fun, and a way to massively ramp up your metabolism to make fat loss easier for the rest of your life. No, you do not have to get destroyed, wiped or drained by your workouts. You can do a lot less during the week and make tremendous progress, in fact much more progress than most people who are slaving away with exercise all the time and doing it effectively. Now before we get into the details, I did want to read a couple recent five star reviews from listeners. The first one is by the very own Dr. Bill Campbell of the body by science research review. I'm a subscriber to that I was thrilled to see that he wrote a review. And he said, quote, a well informed podcast that gets away from the fats and brings the attention back to where things should be relative to our exercise and nutritional programs on the things that are sustainable and repeatable over time. I'm glad he gets it. And I've been following Bill's work for a while now. He will be coming on for an interview soon. So if you want to catch that, make sure to subscribe again, subscribe or follow to this podcast right now so you don't miss it. And if you're watching the video do the same. Another review is from Heather former hooter who says quote, I liked the show more than I was expecting to Okay, so I got to do a better job on my marketing there. Great expert guest very nuanced and non judgment, judgmental discussion about health and weight, highly recommend star shooting star Modi. All right. Thank you, Heather, especially for the words nuanced and non judgmental because that is definitely what we are going for. All right. Now let's dive into today's topic. The title of this episode is why working out less burns more calories and boost your metabolism and fat loss. And to do this, we do have to understand a little bit more about metabolism. I'm going to try to keep it brief. You know how I can get sometimes I get excited about this. But I'm going to first define the components of metabolism. talked about this before in several shows, but it's always good to have a refresher. There are four components, the BMR t f, neat and eat. BMR is your basal metabolic rate. This is the calories needed to perform basic life sustaining functions like breathing, and it accounts for roughly two thirds to up to three quarters of your expenditure. Okay, that's number one. Number two is your thermic effect of food. This is the energy required for digesting absorbing disposing your nutrients. And that's one 10% Then we have neat neat is my favorite This is everything we do that is not sleeping, eating or intentional exercise. So it's walking, cleaning, fidgeting, this can vary a lot based on your lifestyle, your job or how much you move throughout the day. And it can account for anywhere from like 10 to 30% of your expenditure. And then finally we have eat exercise Activity Thermogenesis oh by the way, I don't know if I defined I don't know if I define neat but it was non exercise Activity Thermogenesis. So eat is exercise Activity Thermogenesis, and this is structured planned exercise, whether it is lifting, playing a sport running. And this accounts for something like 5% a really, really small percentage of your metabolism and here's the thing. So here's the underlying practical theory that we're going to touch on multiple times throughout the show. When you try to exercise the calories or when you try to exercise over over every day, lots of running lots of cardio, lots of eat, okay, just to quote unquote burn calories, your body tends to compensate. It reduces energy expenditure in other areas, either in your neat, like you just move and fidget less than other times of the day without realizing it, or even by down regulating your hormones to reduce your expenditure to actually conserve more energy. So that's like, that's a core of why we're going to say that too much exercise is actually hurting you. And also, who loves to do all that exercise, nobody talks, like generally, nobody does. Very, very few people do, right. And in this community, we're we're, we're thinking about our body composition, our health, and longevity and all these things. We want it to be sustainable, right, going back to the five star review about being a sustainable approach, that's what it is, sustainability is something you could do for the long term until you're in your 70s 80s 90s. Literally till the day you die, you can do these things. Okay. The other thing that's really important for metabolism is the role of muscle muscle is muscle tissue is metabolically active. So it increases your metabolism, the more you have, and just recently, I think stronger by science reviewed the data again, and showed that roughly nine to 10 calories per pound of muscle per day. So it's not a massive amount, but it's also not nothing, meaning if you add 10 pounds of muscle over the next, you know, eight to 12 months, your new lifter, and that's a reasonable amount, and you're gonna make an extra 100 calories a day, add another 10 pounds of on top of that over the next few years after that, another 100. So you can be walking around with 20 pounds more muscle burning 200 more calories a day. That's a significant difference, right? 200 calories day is 1400 calories a week, it's almost a half a pound of fat, a week of flexibility. So muscle is metabolically active. And these both these concepts, the idea that your body adapts to too much of too much high intensity cardio or movement. And that muscle is important for increasing your metabolism. By increasing your BMR like the calories you burn all you burn all day, even while you're sleeping. That's really important to this discussion. So that leads me to the first assertion I'm going to make, which is that strength training is extremely important to this whole process. And we've talked before about training versus exercise, right? Exercise is going to the gym moving a lot. It's generally not structured and maybe may have a little structure to it like a class structure. But it generally does not focus on improving some skill over time progressing over time, in particular, strengthen muscle mass, which is what we focus on. Okay. So we know that strength training leads muscle growth, and then that muscle leads to the metabolic benefits of muscle and increases your metabolism. Higher metabolic rate, but there's also a little side benefit. And I looked into the literature and feel free to challenge me but it's called oh boy, what is it epoch? What does that stand for? It's like the afterburner effect, okay. Now, it's been downplayed quite a bit over the years with as more evidence comes out. But the idea is that after some form of more intense deliberate exercise, whether it is training, lifting, cardio, whatever, you will burn more calories the rest of the day than you would have otherwise. And they do show that this can last for anywhere from like two to 10 hours, it used to be a lot more than that they thought that about two to 10 hours, and it can burn up to something like anywhere from 100 to 200 more calories from a lifting session. Then, then other types of of sessions, so lifting or high intensity, cardio, alright. It's a little side effect. I just wanted to mention it but I also wanted to not overstate it. Because if people are like yeah, that's the reason we want to lift because you're gonna get this huge afterburn effect. That's not that's just a tiny thing.
08:58
My name is Tony Romo strength lifter in my 40s Thank you to Phil in his Wits, & Weights community for helping me learn more about nutrition and how to implement better ideas into my strength training. Phil has a very, very good understanding of macros and chemical compounds and hormones and all that and he's continuously learning and that's what I like about Phil. He's got a great sense of humor. He's very relaxed, very easy to talk to. One of the greatest things about Phil in my view is that he practices what he preaches. He also works out with barbells. He trains heavy you notice that he has made but he trains heavy. So if you talk with him about getting in better shape, eating better, he's probably going to give you some good advice and I would strongly recommend you talk with him and help you out. Thanks.
Philip Pape 09:43
One other side benefit I thought of was strength training is its role in blood sugar control, right? I hear about this a lot. And I talk about it a lot and the guys like Brandon Cruz and others how muscles are a sink for your glucose right? And they control blood sugar in there, folks. I just recently had a a Results breakthrough session. These are the free calls that I provide with somebody who he's 50 been lifting most of his life big, strong guy, you know, wants to lose some fat. And his doctor basically said, Look, if it wasn't for all the muscle, you have your blood pressure and your all your other numbers, you know, lipids and so on would bleed or your blood sugar and so on, would probably be in an unhealthy range. But they're actually in a fairly normal range, mainly because you have all this extra muscle mass. And the reason I mentioned that is because that also contributes to metabolism and fat loss, and just makes the whole thing easier. It just makes the whole thing so much easier. All right. So that's, that's the importance of strengthen muscle. Now, what about the other side, the training and the excessive cardio, right? Going back to that endurance adaptation that I talked about. Not only does your body compensate, but it also just overall adapts to that specific mode of training. So you've probably heard the concept of specificity, or stress recovery adaptation. We talk about that from a muscle perspective. But it also works from an endurance perspective. So if you're running a lot, right, if you're a marathon runner, that's the extreme. But even if you're just running on a regular basis, your body's going to adapt to that it's going to become more calorie efficient. And so it is going to burn fewer extra calories for X every extra calorie of work put into it, and it becomes less and less efficient. Now there's something called the constrained energy model proposed by Herman Ponsor at all. And he wrote a book called burn about this phenomenon. And it tends to be misunderstood, misapplied, mis interpreted, whatever. But generally, if you go from sedentary to some level of movement, you're gonna burn quite a bit more calories just doing that. But if you go from being somewhat active to more active, the extra calories burned, tend to not tend to not match the extra work put into it. So that's where I'm going in that, when you do all this extra work and think you're gonna burn a lot more calories, your body will just keep getting more and more efficient, like stingy with those calories. It says, Hey, you're telling me that all these cows, this energy coming in needs to be constantly burned, I'm just going to make it very efficient to do that, because that's what you're telling me. I'm going to downregulate my, the thyroid and the metabolism, and I might even up your hunger signals a bit to make you hungrier, and so on. Whereas when you strength train, you don't have that effect. When you walk a lot, you don't have that effect. Okay, so couple that with the fact that a lot of movement every day, can easily lead to overtraining. And overtraining affects recovery and thus, metabolism. So the, the extra stress on your body, the impact here, your muscles, you get muscle tears, from lots of running and other types of types of cardio like that. The the lack of sleep, or you're not able to sleep as much, or maybe you just don't have as much time to sleep, because you're doing all this exercise versus strength training, where you just need that sleep and recovery and you get it. This could affect your cortisol, which is your stress hormone, it can disrupt your sleep and disrupt your mood. And then you even have a greater risk of injury, when you're doing all of this exercise. Just, you know, strength training is one of if not the lowest chance of injury of like all the sports modalities. You know, soccer is way up there near the top, anything when you're running around gets you smack heads with each other is going to be a higher chance. But even just running in higher stress forms of cardio can do that. So a lot of this exercise where you're just constantly moving all the time, has these other side impacts that you don't often think about that you don't have with lifting. Okay. So what are the benefits of working out less, number one, improved recovery, you simply have fewer sessions that you're working out. So you have more time in between more time to rest, not only between workouts, but between exercises in between sets of those exercises. If you are lifting heavy by heavy we mean things like barbells and dumbbells, maybe some cables, but up in the four to six rep range for the big compound lifts like squats like deadlifts, or maybe in the anywhere from, you know, six to 12 range for some more direct work. But it's almost a failure or within a few reps shy of failure. It's heavy, you take longer rest periods, you take longer rest between sets, and you don't go as often throughout the week, beginners three days a week, advanced for maybe five. Six is is a specialized thing, which is its own thing if we're talking about spreading out the fatigue and stuff like that, but let's just talk about three or four days a week, which is a lot this lot less than seven days. All right. We talked about another benefit of having of working out less is because you're focusing on strength training, you have more muscle that muscle burns more calories. Awesome. This also manages hunger. Okay, and As you get more rest, you get less stress, you get improved sleep, all of these contribute to your metabolic rate. They all spiral on top of each other. Because if you get less sleep, you your hormones down regulate, and you get hungrier, and your metabolism goes down. And that doesn't help, because now it's hard to stick to a diet and so on. So forth. Right? Okay, so what do we want to do with all this? I didn't want to make this too long of an episode. But the last thing I want to talk about is cardio itself, like, am I telling you never to do cardio? Of course not. Of course, now, I've come to the realization through the evidence and experience, that cardio can be a great form of movement, if done right and done effectively from a programming perspective, meaning we prioritize our lifting. And then we don't do more than half of the time lifting as cardio. So if you lift three days a week for an hour, up to an hour and a half a week of cardio, cardio can improve your cardiovascular health, hence the name, it can improve your view to match your lung capacity, brain function, mood, you know, endorphins, we all know that most people don't like lots of it, though. So it can be helpful in short, highly effective bursts, like high intensity interval training, or even a medium intensity cardio just for maybe a half hour at a time, a few days a week. Okay, cardio, yes can burn a lot of calories in a short amount of time, which can contribute to fat loss or in a fat loss phase, but so can lots of walking. And it's easier to walk all day, but you can't do cardio all day, and you get all the other recovery and impact negatives from cardio. Now, there are forms of cardio that are less impactful like biking, swimming, pushing, or pulling a prowler sled where they're primarily concentric on the concentric, half of the muscle movement. So if you think of a bike, you're pumping the legs, but then they come up without any force. Whereas when you run, you are your force forcing on the lake. I'm not speaking very clearly here, but you're basically pounding into the pavement right here pushing off and you're, you're holding your weight as it compresses downwards. So that is an eccentric load that you're placing each time, let alone the impact on your knees, joints, everything else, especially compounded when most people have terrible form when they run that. So yes, you can burn some calories. Now here's the cool thing. Walking burns almost as many calories as running per mile, especially when it's when it's brisk walking, said this before, and I'll say it over and over again, you can only run for like 2030 minutes generally, before you start to get winded, you can walk for 1234 hours cumulative throughout the day, when you add it all up to get 10 12,000 steps, and you're gonna burn almost many calories. So if you're talking just apples to apples with calories, that's one way to do it. And again, walking is extremely low impact and sustainable. So, combine strength and cardio together in this nice beautiful way. And you will reap the benefits of both. Remember that working out less will not meaningfully reduce your expenditure and may actually increase it if you shift from a constant movement, endurance style high rep for high rep form of exercise to a lots of rest and recovery. You know, intense short workout sessions when I say intense, I mean like heavy with the barbell or whatever you're using for your lifting. And you get all these other benefits. So just to recap, metabolism is made up of those four components, one of which is controlled by your muscle mass, another is controlled by walking. And then the other is controlled by exercise, which is a very, very tiny amount. The body is compensates the body adapts strength training is the most important mode of training we can do if we care about our body composition, health and longevity. There are drawbacks with endurance adaptations with overtraining on recovery, when you do too much of this other movement, as well as its side impacts on sleep, stress, mood, cortisol, and so on. And so working out less can definitely increase your metabolism and fat loss. All right. So I hope you have now
Philip Pape 19:05
a good place to start when you ask that question. But if you've listened to all this, if you're still wondering exactly how do I structure this in my personal routine, how do I change the way I move and lift so my expenditure does not take a hit and I get all the benefits that Philip talked about. And if you need some more clarity and confidence, click the link in my show notes for a free results breakthrough session with me seriously, this is a free 30 minute call with me where I give you a clear strategy and action steps to take right away that's all he do. I map it out on a whiteboard. And we say we want to go from here to here. How do we do it boom, boom, boom, here's some actions gives you more certainty to move in the right direction. Whether it's your health, your fitness, your physique, all those things. Again, just use the link in my show notes for the free call. And then we can go over where you are now where you want to be and get you that laser focused vision. I do not sell you pay He or mentioned my services at all on the call unless you ask. I've helped dozens of people who do not become clients, but they are now finally making significant rapid progress toward their goals because we had this call. So click the link in my show notes and let's make that happen. Next week for episode 85 is an interview with Mark piont. I was on his show earlier in the year. And then I had him on to talk about the role of physical health in your mental health, coping with stress, managing stress and knowing that you are never alone on this journey to fascinating discussion. So definitely follow or subscribe to the show right now in your favorite podcast app so you do not miss it. As always, stay strong. And I will talk to you next time here on the Wits & Weights podcast. Thank you for tuning in to another episode of Wits & Weights. If you found value in today's episode, and know someone else who's looking to level up their Wits & Weights, please take a moment to share this episode with them. And make sure to hit the Follow button in your podcast platform right now to catch the next episode. Until then, stay strong
Ep 83: Overcoming Chronic Stress for Health and Performance with Former Navy SEAL Christopher Maher
On today’s show, we dive deep into the topic of stress and its connection to emotion, physiology, and physical pain and trauma. We explore the concept of Strauma, and how it affects your well-being. We also discuss the difference between stress management and stress resolution and explore the effectiveness of stress management tools so you can transition from a state of struggle and strife to one of ease and grace.
On today’s show, we dive deep into the topic of stress and its connection to emotion, physiology, and physical pain and trauma. We explore the concept of Strauma, and how it affects your well-being. We also discuss the difference between stress management and stress resolution and explore the effectiveness of stress management tools so you can transition from a state of struggle and strife to one of ease and grace.
My guest today is Christopher Lee Maher, an author, inventor, entrepreneur, speaker, coach, and innovator in the fields of health, wellness, and longevity, and he is going to share his perspective on these topics and more as we get into our conversation.
Christopher was a Navy SEAL with 1.8% body fat at 22. He had no idea how stress would impact his physical, mental, energy, and emotional health.
He didn't realize he was sick. Eventually, he had joint pain and impaired vision. Christopher discovered that Strauma, or accumulated stress, becomes trauma and causes serious harm. In his mission to alleviate his discomfort, Christopher developed True Body Intelligence technology, a comprehensive system of total healing and integration.
With his help, Christopher’s clients have succeeded at the highest levels in sports, entertainment, business, medicine, and international politics.
__________
Book a FREE 30-minute call with Philip here.
__________
Today you’ll learn all about:
[2:59] The pivotal moments that shaped who Christopher is today
[13:01] Using stress as a motivator
[20:16] Voluntary hardship and transition to ease and growth
[28:01] Identifying the psychological root cause based on the physiological symptoms, and the concept of traditional Chinese medicine
[30:44] Carol is grateful to Philip for helping her be consistent with nutrition and understand the importance of taking rest days
[37:59] Body mapping for achieving Results
[45:15] How to improve your health and learn "bestersize"
[51:34] What training does Christopher recommend
[56:31] What he wanted Philip to ask him about
[58:58] Where you can learn more about Christopher
[1:00:27] Outro
Episode resources:
Christopher’s website: truebodyintelligence.com
His book: Free for Life: A Navy SEAL's Path to Inner Freedom and Outer Peace
FREE 30-minute results breakthrough session with Philip ⬇️
https://witsandweights.com/free-call
Learn about 1-on-1 coaching ⬇️
https://witsandweights.com/coaching
Ask Philip anything ⬇️
IG: @witsandweights
Email: philip@witsandweights.com
Podcast: Q&A voicemail
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Transcript
Christopher Maher 00:00
Do you mean whatever's in my body is in my life. Whatever is not working in my life, I can point to and find a place where I have an excessive relative and reflective amount of tension and stress stored in that particular part of my body.
Philip Pape 00:18
Welcome to the Wits & Weights podcast. I'm your host, Philip pape, and this twice a week podcast is dedicated to helping you achieve physical self mastery by getting stronger. Optimizing your nutrition and upgrading your body composition will uncover science backed strategies for movement, metabolism, muscle and mindset with a skeptical eye on the fitness industry, so you can look and feel your absolute best. Let's dive right in. Welcome to another episode of Wits & Weights. On today's show, we dive deep into the topic of stress and its connection to emotion physiology, physical pain and trauma. We explore the concept of Strama and how it affects your well being. We also discussed the difference between stress management and stress resolution, and explore the effectiveness of stress management tools. So you can transition from a state of struggle and strive to want to ease and grace. My guest today is Christopher Lee matter, an author, inventor, entrepreneur, speaker, coach and innovator in the fields of health, wellness and longevity. And he's going to share his perspective on those topics and more as we get into our conversation. At 22. Christopher was a Navy SEAL in his prime, with a sleek one point a percent body fat and one of the fittest people on the planet. He was also completely unaware of the full impact that stress would eventually have on his physical, mental, energetic and emotional well being. His internal health was compromised and he didn't even know it. He suffered from pain in every joint his hearing was shot and his vision was poor. Christopher realized that piled up stress, which he calls Strama, transforms into trauma over time and causes severe damage. Christopher devoted his energy, time and resources seeking answers to alleviate his discomfort, and eventually developed true body intelligence technology, a comprehensive system of total physical, mental, emotional, spiritual healing and integration. With his help Christopher's clients have succeeded at the highest levels in sports, entertainment, business, medicine and international politics. Christopher, I'm delighted to have you on and your unique perspective on the show today.
Christopher Maher 02:24
Thank you, dude, that was the best intro I've had so far. And I've done a bunch of podcast.
Philip Pape 02:30
That's what I strive for, man. It's all about, you know, showing you
Christopher Maher 02:33
your homework cool or detailed. Cool. Yeah, no,
Philip Pape 02:37
I appreciate it, man. No, it's well deserved. People need to know who you are, and want to set up for the conversation. So we know we're getting into. And yeah, so your background is very eclectic. I would say you're a Navy SEAL. You have experience with Chinese medicine, you have an approach to stress management that that sounds very unique. So of all of your life experiences, what were the pivotal moments that you think shaped who you are today.
Christopher Maher 03:06
I mean, there's a lot, right, but there's one that sticks out the most for me. And I was driving from my girlfriend's place to teach a class on a Wednesday night in July. And this is some years ago. So this would be what 1999 or 2000. So either 1999 or 2000. And I'm driving this green light, moving through the green light slowly and out of nowhere, a car comes through the intersection and slams into my car. Since a car round car hits a light pole so hard, then it spins back the other way. I go to hospital. And the next day when I wake up, pain has now shifted from outside of my hip to the middle of my hip. And now I can no longer override things with my will. Right? You can imagine you go through SEAL training your navy seal, it would be assumed that the person has an intense, indomitable will. And I definitely had one of those. And then I had an ice pick in my hip throbbing every two to three seconds. And when you have that kind of unrelenting discomfort, you're eventually going to break your strategies and my strategy at the time was emotional self reliance. So if I was in pain, you would know about it. Because guess what I was indoctrinated to never bitch moan, complain or whine. I'll go to boarding school for 10 years. That was involuntary too. So everybody knows I was I didn't want to go to boarding school, my grandmother sent me. And then I volunteered for the military and to go to SEAL training being a SEAL team. So now that was voluntary discipline. So when you're signing up for something there is, and you know that you're the one who signed up. There is some ownership in that, right? So I took responsibility for my pain psychologically, mentally, like, well, you put yourself through all that. Don't complain anyone? You did it, you should have investigated, like, why didn't you get to Coronado, meet a bunch of guys that used to be in the SEAL teams and ask them, how's your body working? Because if you did, you thought to yourself? Yeah, do I want to feel like hell at 40 at 4445 35 years old? No, I don't know, maybe I would have made a different decision. So I didn't do my homework. And I ended up with a body full of intense amounts of stress. And look, their job is to stress you out, right? Because they need to know something. Does this guy make good decisions when he's cold, wet and miserable? Think about that. Does this guy make good solid decisions? When he's cold, wet and miserable. Anybody can make a good decision on a bright, sunny, warm day. Okay. So I, I understand the process. But what I didn't account for is all the childhood stress that I dealt with in the childhood trauma. I had a mother who committed suicide when she was 29. What does that let us know? She was mentally and emotionally unwell. Okay. Our father died of cirrhosis of the liver. What does that let us know? He was mentally and emotionally unwell. Okay, now I'm the next generation. And by the time I'm my mother's age, 29 years old, I have a body riddled full of pain. What should that have told me. He's mentally and emotionally unwell. I didn't put that together. Right, because I associated all the discomfort that I was in with my desire and passion to be fit, right and to prove myself. And my goal at the time was to qualify for the Olympic trials, it was never going to happen. I had the will. I didn't have the body. I had the will. I didn't have the mind. I had the will. I didn't have the emotion. Okay, because I had fragmented and overstressed myself so much that I was stuck in the state of trauma. And if I say Strama, what I mean is stress plus time, right? So you take unresolved stress, plus time equals strong was that mean? If I'm driving down the road, and I fall asleep at the wheel, and I run into a telephone pole, that's blunt force trauma, right? happens in the moment. But Strama is what all humans are dealing with that are in their 30s or 40s, in their 50s. And what it is, is it's stress that is unresolved in a 24 hour period that gets piled into the next day. So Monday's stress ends up in Friday. And then Friday ends up in next Friday. And then January ends up in March and then March ends up in August. And you know, do that for two or three decades consistently. And eventually, you're going to bend down to tie your shoe. Okay. And you're gonna go to get up and your back's gonna go, pop. And you're gonna go Oh, my God. Suzie honey, called the doc. I can't move. What are you talking about? Bill? My back. I can't move. Well, you look normal. Can you just call 911? I need to get someone here. Honey, I can't move. Now is are you supposed to get injured when you bend over to tie your shoe? No, of course you're not. But if you have an intense amount of unresolved stress, Strama tension and distortion, it's eventually going to happen. So anyone who's listening, trust me. If you do not deal with or let's say not a different way, if you continue to avoid removing, and diminishing your lifetime accumulated stress load and the Strama that's in your system, the daily accumulated stress that got piled on day after day. Eventually, one day you're gonna wake up and you're gonna have some kind of pain, and whether that's an unrelenting toothache, you're starting to lose your vision. You're turning into an insomniac. It's impossible for you to fall asleep. It's difficult for you to stay asleep. You're getting up and urinating five or six times a night. You've got these intense menstrual cramps. You're having involuntary abortions, okay. You know, the miscarriages are now creating a lot of emotional stress for you. You know, you're super talented. You're super smart, but they the amount of money that you're being paid for the work that you're doing is unfair and inequitable. Like there's 100 ways in which trauma affects you, right? You got unrelenting headaches. And guess what? They start out very small, right? Like, oh, I got this little weird pain in my head. It lasted for an hour, decade later. It lasts a whole day, two decades later. Now you haven't twice a week, three decades later. Now. They're full blown migraines that last three or four days, right?
Philip Pape 10:58
So this is, yeah, yeah, no, go ahead.
Christopher Maher 11:01
So so when you have this type of stress, and everyone has that, like, let's be clear, anyone who's listening right now is full of a massive amount of stress, tension, distortion and Strama. It's, I've done 100,000 hours of research, right? So they tell you, in order to master any one thing, it takes 10,000 hours, right? I've done 100,000, it's 10 of those. So I wouldn't be a master of something, I would be a grandmaster, right. So when it comes to this field of study, and in information that I've given you, it has been tested, and tried again, and again, and again, and again. And whether someone's seven, or they're 77, you know, what, they have the same amount of stress and tension in their body, in their, in the health of their tissues.
Philip Pape 11:52
Yeah, this this concept is, I wouldn't have believed it when I was younger. And having gone through some of the experiences I have, and having dealt with back pain and and then when that happened, talk to other people, some of who were able to deal with those issues. by resolving some emotional stress, and dealing with that side of it without any other interventions. It's it totally makes sense for me. And the way you describe that whole process of accumulated stress. And I've heard the, you know, accumulative load makes us realize that the accumulation is part of the part of the relevance here, right? We're talking years and years. It's not just something you can fix overnight, necessarily. It's also not a fit just a physical thing. Like I think a lot of people think, Well, I'm unhealthy. So I get all my lifestyle practices in order from a physical perspective, which I help clients do. But that's not all of it, right? And even the stress piece of it, I don't think a lot of people give it as much attention or depth as you're, I think, already starting to dive into here, which then should lead to that understanding should lead to what can we potentially do about it? People can gain from this. So he talked about the Navy SEALs, just real quick on that. I have heard how like, you know, Navy SEALs use stress as a motivator, they turn stress from a negative into a positive. Is that some Is that some sort of rationalization going on there? Or is that true thing for a certain subset of, of those guys that maybe don't already have the previous stress? I mean, help me understand that.
Christopher Maher 13:22
Yeah, I mean, eventually there will be, eventually the law of diminishing returns, will turn on. Okay. The body can only potentially hold so much tension and stress and distortion. And we use stress in the beginning to strengthen the mind, right? And then the mind gets really strong. But when the mind becomes so strong, that it ignores the physical needs, the emotional needs, and the psychological needs of the body, and of the person's life, eventually, you will turn a win into a loss. Okay, so that mindset is great. Take that mindset, go through things that are difficult. So you can build your will to achieve the things that you want to experience. Once you've experienced the things that you want to experience, and you need to keep having those experiences to validate who you are. Now you're in trouble. Because at some point, you're going to go over the edge of what your body can recover from. And if you do more than what your body can, can recover from, you're now creating damage. And why would anyone show up and knowingly put damage in their body? The only reason why they would continue to do that is if their identity was attached to their achievement. Hmm Okay. And that's what I mean by you now you take a win, and you turn it into a loss, right. And so the thing about it is humans are in this very unique place, where now we get to test everything right? We can go into a sauna, and being there for 30 minutes, come out for 10 minutes and go cold water, go back in for 30 minutes, right. And then we can take, we can withdraw some blood, send it to the lab and see that we've increased our human growth hormone by 36%. Right? So we can test and and we can evaluate if you're someone who's into fitness and wellness, and you want to push the edge, because you want to learn about what's the healthy functional state of being wonderful. But when you go too far, and now you have excruciating joint pain, okay, to attempt to prove your philosophy. And what it's doing is it's reducing your body's ability to heal, because you're lowering your restore repair recovery, right? So the purpose of elevating your ego. Now, instead of having a win loss, you now have a loss loss. Sure. And so the question is, for me, for the listener is, do you want to do things that are rational or irrational, in the beginning, the things that you're going to be doing, you're irrational because your body's never done them before. But then, any good thing that you do, like vitamin C is great. If you, if you have too much, it becomes a problem. Juicing is wonderful. If you use too much, it's a problem. Steak is great. If you eat too much, it's a problem. Sleep is wonderful. But if you sleep too much, it's a problem. Sex is awesome. But if you have too much, it becomes a problem. And so the thing is knowing your threshold, right? And we're at this place in time where we get to decide how we want to grow. I want to be more emotionally present Great, there's a course somewhere on the internet, okay? I want to have a more loving relationship with my wife and be a better communicator, there's a course somewhere on the internet, right? There's people out there like you, there's people out there like me, that are coming together having powerful conversations so that people like the listeners can tune in, and they can learn something valuable that they can implement, right, they can extract it and put it into their life, test it out, take it to its edge, see what the result is. If the result is dysfunction, then your choice is dysfunctional. Right? Never ignore the data, always collect the data. So I think that's the guilty mindset is wonderful, to a point. Okay, I'm not going to put 50 pounds of sand in my rucksack in my backpack and run down the beach. Because I know for 50 miles because I know at some point, I'm wearing away at the joints in my low back. Right. And so Hey, maybe I throw 50 pounds on and I run for a mile. And I do that once a week, once every two weeks, you got to know your body. And you've got to pay attention to the signals. And pain is always the last indicator that something is wrong. So when you have a little pain in your shoulder, it's not a little pain. It's a big problem. And this is the thing that most people don't understand that I understand too well, because I was someone that continued to keep pushing the edge. And so now I know to listen to the signposts on the side of the road that says slow down. Okay, curb, go 15 miles an hour. When I was 19, I might go 60. Right. Sure. For sure. Okay. All right, now that I'm moving towards 60, maybe go 30? Because that's who I am. Right? I'm always going to want to push the edge a little bit.
Philip Pape 19:28
Right. Yeah. And pushing that edge a little, as he alluded to, it's it's a form of I think the term is for Mises, right. It's like that acute stress that is beneficial as humans, you mentioned the sauna and other things like that, where there's a short term stressor that leads to some some benefits down the road unless you do it too much or too hard. And I was thinking of the stress recovery adaptation model of lifting as well as how you can accumulate too much fatigue and continue to push yourself and never give yourself that chance to recover. And you also mentioned the shoulder pain which I've had And I totally can empathize with the idea of, hey, it's just a little pain, push through it. And now all of a sudden pop and you make it worse. You should have just, and the pain, like you said, isn't even the first signal. There's there's other things before that, that that you that your body's telling you. Okay, so this, this is great stuff. What about? So you mentioned voluntary hardship. And the transition from a state of struggle to one of ease and grace, I want to understand that that phrase, and that thought, right. People want to be stoic. We talked about this, this whole concept you said with the Navy SEALs, kind of taking it to the extreme of just sucking it up, and it's gonna make you a better person. But don't. You're saying don't keep doing that forever. So when life is constantly pushing back on you, how can someone do that? How can they transition to a life of ease as you call it?
Christopher Maher 20:55
Okay, I mean, one, they need to understand the model, right? Like, how do we get stress first? I mean, we have to have a rudimentary base understanding of how we get to pain. And so anytime someone has a symptom, right? Most people in the fitness and wellness so they're running along. And no, this is better. They're playing tennis, right? With their girlfriends. Then they're going to go out in the afternoon and lay in the sun. And they're whacking balls back and forth. They're doing backhand forehand. And then the girl wakes up the next day and her backs like incredibly stiff. She can be stoic, okay, and she can pretend like, I'm okay, I just need a few days, and the swelling will go down. The truth is yeah, the the swelling will go down, and the discomfort will disappear. But what she's not thinking about is this, you should be able to go and play tennis. And if you wake up the next day and your back hurts, it means that there's something wrong with your back. You should be able to knock balls for an hour or two. Across the net, have a nice time wailing away at these balls. If you wake up and you've got excessive swelling and a stiff low back the next day, you need to go huh? Would a healthy structural person be having this discomfort? And the moment you ask that question and you in and you include healthy, what you're going to get is absolutely not. The healthy person should be able to knock balls around for an hour or two and wake up the next day and be totally fine. The challenge is this. People have symptoms and they don't know where the symptoms come from. So you alluded to this idea earlier, that people have physical pain, stiffness in their low back that are connected to emotional, unresolved challenges from their childhoods when their minds were in a pre cognitive state of function. What does it mean when we say a mind is in a pre cognitive state of function? What we mean listeners is, this person doesn't understand context. Children don't understand context. Okay? They understand. Oh, this lollipop. It's sweet. I liked the taste. They don't know who made the lollipop. They don't know how it's made. They don't even understand that mom had to go to the grocery store to get it. They don't know that dad had to earn money to buy it. They have no clue all they know is this thing in my mouth tastes sweet. I like it. My mom didn't give it to me. Now I'm upset. Okay, now here's the thing. When a woman or man is playing tennis, knocking balls back and forth across the net for our to wakes up the next day and they have pain in their low back. It always always I can say that 100 times, always is related back to something that's unresolved emotionally. And if you know what emotions go through the middle of the legs, right? All circumduction in the body is controlled by the function of your liver and the function of your gallbladder. And if you know that the function of the liver, its high function is freedom, helpfulness and the seed of emotion. And you know, the gallbladder is the Center for decisiveness and devotion. Well, if I have pain in my back after playing tennis, which requires an intense amount of circumduction whom What's the opposite Feeling free? Oh, repression. What's the opposite to being decisive, indecisive. And now I look back over my life and go, Wow, that's so funny. When all my friends sit down for lunch, I'm always the last one to be able to figure out what to order. Because I'm indecisive, right? Whenever I go out with my friends, and they start having these conversations about things that I'm uncomfortable with, I never say anything, because I want people to like me. So then I closed off my throat, and I repress my real feelings. Okay, so the way that someone's functioning emotionally and psychologically, is what leads to the physiological and structural pain and discomfort. And if you know what each part of the body is related to emotionally, energetically, psychologically, and instinctually, you now have a game plan. So now that girl, she knows someone who knows me, and I go, Hey, look, you need to go have a conversation with Christopher, let, you need to go have a conversation versa. Okay. She gets my number, she sends me texts. Hey, listen, I was playing tennis. It happens every time that I do this. How do I resolve this? I just asked a simple a couple simple question. How indecisive Are you? When you sit down to order food? Always. They always give them the same answer. What I mean by that is whatever is in your body is in your life. If something is distorted in your body, there's something distorted in terms of your behavior in your life. Well, what's the only thing that can distort behavior, excess excessive unresolved stress and tension. So if I removed the tension, then I removed the stress. Instead of being indecisive, decisive. Instead of feeling repressed and suppressed, I feel free to communicate my ideas and like feelings or emotions to those around me. And now that I'm decisive, and free, want to go back when I go to play tennis, the next time I wake up in the morning, guess what? No back pain. Hmm, that's curious. Oh, so you mean whatever is in my body is in my life. Whatever is not working in my life, I can point to and find a place where I have an excessive relative and reflective amount of tension and stress stored in that particular part of my body.
Philip Pape 27:43
Okay, so what I spotted this morning, I'm sure the listeners thinking okay, how do you how do you do that? Well, I mean, so my skepticism here is always get up with everything. It's just how I it's great. And that's cool. And actually, I wanted to explore like the the Chinese medicine and Eastern versus, versus not versus but complementarity with Western principles. But the let's take that one example, the woman playing tennis with the low back pain is, I mean, a lot of people get low back pain. Are we saying they're all indecisive? Or is it the way that they describe that pain to you gives you that indication of what to ask? Yeah, what
Christopher Maher 28:17
we're saying is because I know her activity, and she was playing tennis, and that means that she was rotating, she was twisting. I know that the pain is coming from the inability to circum ducked correctly. Okay,
Philip Pape 28:33
right. Okay. Yeah. And then what? And then what would happen next, when you said okay, well, you're, you're not indecisive people who are indecisive and I know some in my own life. Like, how do I, how do I become decisive?
Christopher Maher 28:44
How do you become decisive, you become decisive by removing the stress out of that channel. So you brought up, which was perfect timing, the concept of traditional Chinese medicine. So the Chinese have mapped out the body in terms of lines of energy that move through the body. They're called meridians or channels, right? So you have 12 primary channels, you have four extraordinary channels, every one of these channels moves through the belly of a muscle, literally, right through the belly of the muscle. The Chinese, they studied energy, they didn't study anatomy, right? That's not how they came up with traditional Chinese medicine. They studied the energy in the body. Well, here's what happened. Guess what else is right above below that Meridian nerve. So the body's been mapped out, right? It has very specific ways in which it functions. And when you know those ways that it function, it allows you to then see the roadmap and then reverse engineer the problem. Once you can reverse engineer the problem, and then I take it a step further, I teach the person how to do it. So they're not relying on me. Why? Because I'm allergic to codependent relationships. Sure. Yeah. I can you understand yourself empowered man, you know that if you have someone who you're imparting wisdom and knowledge into their life, and you're showing them how to do it on their own, eventually, one day you want them to disappear. Right?
Philip Pape 30:31
Right. So then the fireman is a coach. I put it sometimes Yeah, yeah,
Christopher Maher 30:35
like, come on. Look, I hope you're only here for three months. So then you can go away and the next person can come in. Right.
30:44
Before my coaching session with Philip, I was really struggling with staying consistent with my nutrition, Phillip really showed me the importance of being consistent day to day, he also helped me see that it's not a bad thing to take a rest day, he really helps me get in that more positive headspace of a rest day being something really good for me. I've been doing this for a month now. And I'm finally starting to see some progress and my numbers. And I'm really excited about that. And I just appreciate so much the help that Philip has given me. He's always willing to answer questions to offer resources that are totally free, and very, very helpful. So I just want to say how much I appreciate that. Thanks, Phil.
Christopher Maher 31:30
For all the listeners on the call. Now, in order to empower yourself, you need to understand some very, very simple basic things in the body. You need to understand fascia, fascia works, you need to understand how your muscles work the names of those muscles, you need to understand the organs that are connected to those muscles. Because see, when the nerves leave your spinal cord, they go into an organ and then they leave in Oregon and where do they go? They go into a muscle. So whatever's going into my muscles is going on in my organs. Whatever's going on in my organs is going on in my nervous system. Whatever's going on my nervous system is going on in my brain. Whatever's going on in my brain is going on in the soles of my feet. That's the map. Once you understand that map, you're like, oh, wow, I'm having some digestive issues. Oh, you are this is interesting. Okay, now I know which Meridian goes through which muscle? This? Oh, I'm stealing with a lot of bloating. Okay, I got you covered. Let's push around a little bit. Oh, sure that there's pain right where it should be? Do we remove the discomfort come in the next week as your bloating Oh, not bloated, at all? Easy. Without understanding and knowing the map see before the only map I had was fitness going hard all day, every day, all the time, I accumulated so much stress in my structural body, it started to affect the way that my systemic organs were working. Every one of your organs is connected to a sense organs. So every one of your organs like your liver, your lungs, your large intestine, your spleen, your stomach, your pancreas, your kidneys, your bladder, your brain, your sexual organs, every one of them is connected to a sense organ. So when my systemic organs are being stressed out by my structural tissues, because they're so tight and toxic, now my sense organs suffer. That's what I start losing, I start losing my vision, I start losing my hearing, I start losing my smell, I start losing my taste. Okay, so when they say everything is connected, they literally mean everything is connected. So whatever is going on, on the soles of my feet is an indication of how well my organs communicate together. If my organs have really good communication, my body's relaxed. But if my body is stressed in a reflective and relative manner, so are my organs in my organs, and my structural tissues are stressed. Now my sense organs are stressed. And once they're stressed, and you start losing vision, you start losing hearing, you start getting very stressed, because you're not picking up the information and data that you need in order to be successful. When you get in your car, and you want to go to the grocery store, you want to get from A to B. Okay, you don't want to get halfway down the hill, and then suddenly, half your vision drops out of one eye. Because you're severely overstressed. So, unresolved stress manifests this tension tension creates structural distortion and structural distortion. transforms into physical, mental, emotional and spiritual pain. What is spiritual pain? It means I have an ineffectual amount of energy to do the things that I desire, and I'm unable to be ethical, moral principles and be Integris. That means I'm spiritually sick. Okay? Then there's emotional pain was emotional pain, anxiety, okay, I'm depressed, I'm feeling hopeless. I'm feeling repression and suppression. I'm finding it difficult to connect with others. Now, I know I'm emotionally in pain. Well, when you're in physical pain, that's the easiest one. The easiest of them all. If you go in and you solve your physical pains, you solve your emotional, spiritual and psychological pain simultaneously. So yeah, you can be fit and healthy, or you can be fit, and unhealthy. And most people are fit but they're unhealthy. So
Philip Pape 36:09
it's funny because the human body is is very complicated, very complex. And I think we have, we have a hubris, and I see it, the older I get in the medical community, I have less love for doctors than I used to, you know, certain things, especially when I see things like women's health and other areas that seem highly misunderstood or neglected or even worse. And you just put for me, I guess, in the first time that I've either been willing to listen or, you know, hear it, what to me is actually a very logical set of relationships here in the body. Because we still don't understand the brain as much as we could or that our nervous system. And when you when you first talked about meridians, I was thinking, okay, that that's the analogy for our nervous system and how it all connects. And you you kind of said as much connected to the organs and in the sense organs and everything else. And then even talking about spiritual pain again, I'm like, Okay, here we go, you know, spiritual, what do we mean by that? And you're kind of grounded in in those things that, that people can relate to, of having that emotional and energetic deficiency, right, and not enough to give not enough to give to others. They haven't even taken care of themselves. And then finally said, Look, if we can solve the physical pain, I think what you mean is the root of the pain, right? Not just the symptom itself, that it's this whole chain of events between that emotional, spiritual, so hopefully, somewhat paraphrase what you just said, Yeah. In the layman's term that I understand it right now. And I'm open minded to this stuff. So I really want to understand, especially if someone can say, this information now empowers me to try something that maybe never tried before. That's still grounded in understanding my own body and listening to it. So this is very powerful stuff, Christopher so far. Yeah.
Christopher Maher 37:56
Here's the thing for me. Thank you for that. I can't live in fantasy. But I'm in my mid 50s, heading towards 60. I can't live in fantasy man. Yeah, like other people, you can live fantasy, all you want, I have to be in reality. What does that mean? That means people show up at my door on Monday, and they knock on my door. And I opened the door. They come in, and they sit down and the seat that I give my sit across from them and say, Hey, why are you here? And they go, Well, that, then I have to go? Why are you really here? What's your intention? And when they say that intention, I have to produce that result. So I don't have the ability to live in woowoo. It's just me, I have to live in science. And what I mean is, I have to produce a verifiable, repeatable, predictable outcome for them. And if I don't produce that, come Friday, they're going to be unhappy. And they're going to feel like I wasted their time. I wasted their energy, and I wasted their resources. So I can't fuck around in fantasy. So I had to figure this shit out quickly. And it had to be applicable to every single human on the planet. And so I dove in for 100,000 hours to produce something that does what it says it says what it does, because I can't afford to live in fantasy. Why? Because people are relying on me to give them good quality information, but also to produce a result that's beyond what they could have ever imagined. So every week, I gotta pull a rabbit out of my ass. Okay, yeah, everybody Come under that pressure. And so, you know, I'm in Montana right now working with a lovely woman who put a knife through her hand. And she is suffering from some lack of movement and energy. And she wants things to work correctly. So I have to use everything that I know. And I've got to be willing to trust my instinct, okay? Be in alignment with her intent. And not Yes, I can help you and then get the job done. The benefit of being in the SEAL teams is this for me, when I walked across the stage, and they gave me my diploma, I knew I was my own man, I'd been through a rite of passage. What I learned to understand more about that experiences, it gave me the confidence to know I can get the job done. So no matter what you bring to my table, I'm gonna figure it out. Right? The body is simple. It's very, very, very, very, very simple. And if you do these very specific things, you are guaranteed to get this specific result why? Because this is how the body functions. And if you understand the math, you can reverse and you can reverse engineer, any state of dis ease. If you understand the map, and I went in to study the map, that's why I went to medical school. Okay, I went in there to study the map, I need to know the map. Once I understood the map, and I started to create and produce systems that were reflective of the information in the map, I started to produce verifiable, repeatable results that were predictable. And so I am impassioned, because people want to feel freedom, they want to feel happy, they want to feel joyful, they want to have their energy back. Okay, because no one understood the map before, when I was a kid, nobody understood the map is somebody understood the map, my mom would still be alive. If somebody understood the map, my grandfather might still be alive. Okay. But they didn't understand the map in the 60s. Right. And when I went into going into the SEAL teams and training for the Olympic trials and wanting to make my goal, I didn't know anything about the body. I just got up and I used it like a skateboard. Hey, take me over here. Hey, take me over there, I didn't realize that we were endowed with the Starship Enterprise. I thought we got to skateboard. So once I investigated into all of these different systems, and I started to see these correlations, and then I started to implement strategies to neutralize the expressions of these different levels of dysfunction. It became really, really easy. And so I think what I want the listener to understand, it's very easy once you understand the math, right now, most people have a map on how to get fit, how to get some more testosterone in their body, how to get a better night's sleep, what better what are the better foods to eat? How can they employ fasting to maintain a high state of alert, but also to reduce their body fat, you know, they can learn all that stuff, right? And that stuff is great. But none of that will get you to understand the true map that you have. This body is so much more complex. Okay. And it can achieve so much more than what we've been told. Then what we know I'm letting the listener know, I figured out the math. I got it. Alright, so how
Philip Pape 44:13
I think we're talking about your true body intelligence technology and maybe yeah, in general, while the principles behind that the festival is behind the idea that someone can have agency is definitely appealing to everyone listening right because we've gotten to a state especially with the medical industry where it's, let's let's just fix whatever happened or try our best to fix it with pharmacology with some sort of, you know, band aid after the fact it's not. Not only is it not preventative which I know that we're trying to change that just minimally in the industry. It's not the full empowered control and knowledge of your body to change it and I think people are definitely open to the idea of I've had all these issues have gone all these doctors I've gone to these special was whatever still not working? There's gotta be something else there. Right? If we don't if we don't know it in that scope of knowledge, the knowledge has to be somewhere. And maybe we don't know it at all. I know you're saying we know some of this, but regardless, people would like to the power over their, their body and their results. So what's a specific example? you've alluded to kind of the front end of this process, but how would somebody then do something here? What action will they take to improve their health and their outcomes using this approach?
Christopher Maher 45:28
Well, I mean, the first thing you'd have to learn as best are sighs Okay, that would ostracize. That's the best or sighs me Easterseals s. T. S. Exercise, right? Why we call it Bester? sighs because it's the best form of exercise. Why? Because it includes concentric isometric and eccentric contractions at maximal force. Okay, sounds okay.
Philip Pape 45:52
Sounds like back squats.
Christopher Maher 45:53
Okay. And, you know, in tons of different dynamic positions, okay. Why? Why? Why? Why would we want to use pesticides? Why? Because when you get into each one of these positions, each one of them affects the different organs. It affects the different sense organ, it affects a different muscle. Okay, it affects a different quality of energy, it gives you access to higher forms of intelligence. Why? Because the concentric contraction does what it strengthens, we need strength. Okay, if you have to go to the bar, you need enough strength to pick up your beer. Okay? Right. If you're going to drive to the grocery store, you have to have enough strength to hold your keys. Sounds ridiculous, I know. But let's say you want to do something profound, right? Like you want to use your body to complete a marathon or a 10k never done anything like that it needs strength in order to do it. But in order to have maximize strength, you need to be able to recruit tissue. So now in order to recruit new tissue, new tissue tissue that's been turned off, you have to use isometric contractions, because isometric contractions force you, in order to stay in that position another second longer, you need to recruit more tissue in order to be able to do it. And then that new tissue that you recruit, it needs to be what it needs to be lengthened. So I got to strengthen, recruit a new fiber. Now lengthen that new fiber, now strengthen that new fiber. Now recruit another fiber, right, you can see the cycle. As you keep doing that, guess what happens you're going to turn on the entire belly of the muscle, all the way out to the edge of where it connects into attended. Okay, now I've got the whole thing fired up. Now that all that all that intensity in that intent, all that energy in there, you know where it goes, it goes into the feeds my Oregon, which Oregon does it feed, it feeds the Oregon connected to the channel that goes right directly through the belly of that muscle, muscle belly, Chinese medicine, they call them tendo muscular channels. Okay. Now, wool, I've lit that up. And now the Oregon's being fed. And when I wake up the next day, I'm looking around for something to eat. I've got five choices in front of me, I picked the one eggs, I picked the one that my body needs the most. You want to know why? Because now my Oregon is communicating to my brain and it's saying, Hey, we got five choices here, we usually choose number three, actually, let's, let's choose number one. Why? Because I have more intelligence inside of my body. So what they're discovering in science right now, which I've known for at least three decades, is that we're surrounded by magnetic energy constantly. Here's the interesting thing about Bester sites. When you're in a position and you're performing concentric, then holding an isometric and then maximal force for the eccentric when you open that channel. Now that universal magnetic energy gets sucked into your body. And now it starts filling up your organs with more energy, when they have more energy. So do your sense organs. Now I can see better I can hear better, I can smell better. Now because I have more information, I can make a better decision. Okay, now I make a better decision. I have a better life. So whatever's in my body is in my life. Whatever's missing in my body is also in my life. So when I'm low function, okay, I'm not attracted to high function. When I'm high function, I'm allergic to low function. So what do you want to do you want to use best or sighs so that you can turn on all those high functions inside of you. And you can make amazing choices because your whole life is based on your decisions. Hmm, should I invest in real estate? Or should I invest in crypto to invest in real estate investing in crypto? Where should I take this money invested in my business, invested in my business invested in crypto invested in real estate? I know what I'm going to do, I'm going to work on the muscles associated with decision making. I'm going to get into my gallbladder channel. I'm going to open that up. And now I'm gonna pose that question again. And immediately, you're gonna go, Oh, I'm gonna invest in my business.
Philip Pape 50:47
It's interesting. I'm letting you talk here. Because you know, some of this stuff is is blowing my mind. But I there are definitely parallels of some of this, how I and others might describe them differently. Like the example of choosing the food for you is so true, because I see the mindlessness of of many people when it comes to food on a regular basis. And, yeah, oftentimes, there's additional movement and training and just physical interaction with the world that you've never had before. All of a sudden turn something on, where now you can hear your body, you can hear what it's telling you to, you know, to eat, how much do you what types of things? You know, no, I don't want to eat that, quote, unquote, junk food or candy or whatever it is they used to eat, because just my body's not telling me I want it. I can see that. So but Bester sighs that's an interesting term. Would that would you categorize? I mean, are you basically talking about strength training and all its forms? Or is there a specific one that you recommend the most?
Christopher Maher 51:44
No, that it's, it's getting into a position. So here's the great thing about the SEAL teams SEAL team, they teach you how to master your body through calisthenics. Okay, so they had the right idea, right. But they have limited position. And they left out the other two contractions. Right? So they learned the isometric contraction, and they left out the eccentric contraction, wisdom, most important. Why? Because it's 30 to 50% stronger. For every 100 pounds, you can lift, you can lower 30 to 50%. More weight, you
Philip Pape 52:22
can always get down on my squat mat can always come up. Yep, yes.
Christopher Maher 52:25
Right. Yeah. So so if you if you put that to the test, and you thought about every single muscle group in the body, then you did the same thing. Isometric concentric eccentric contraction, so you sent your contractions at maximal force, right? Now you're going to open your body, and when you open your cavity, your ribcage and your shoulders, structurally, everything starts dropping into the right place. Why? Because now your bones are rotated in the correct position. When my bones are rotated in the correct positions, my heart has to spend less energy, pushing blood around my body. Now, instead of having to go buh, buh, buh, buh, buh, buh, buh, buh, buh, but it can go boom, boom, boom. Or other people, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. Why? Because they have this excessive amount of structural tension, stress and distortion. I'm not talking about yoga. Okay, if you're into yoga, I'm not going to dog yoga. This is this is not what we're talking about. Okay. I'm not talking about length ability. I'm talking about flexibility. When they say flexibility. What's the first part of that word? Flex. Okay, what does flex mean? That means for muscle to shorten it, does it mean for it to lengthen? Hmm, that's curious. I thought flexibility meant length ability. No, no, no, no, no, I'll talk about flexibility, right? Getting the muscle to contract at maximal force. Because when I do that, guess what? It becomes 20 to 30% longer. Yep, counterintuitive, right? So Bester sighs really means bio energetic, self transformational sequences. Okay. And I've, I've spent the last 22 years I learned a few from someone and then I took it and I created hundreds of those. And once you implement those, now, the whole system functions in a way that you can't even imagine because your hearing gets better. Like me if I close my eyes right now. I can hear my heart beating football. Football. 25 years ago, I couldn't hear my heart beating unless I just got done sprinting right 800 meters as fast as I could. Okay, so I can hear my heart beating. My hearing. Excellent. My sense of people my ability to read their emotional state what they need my ability to meet them in their style of communication, my ability to be out frantically self expressed and regardless of the environment that I'm in, all these levels of intelligence keep rising inside of you, they get higher, the more you open your body, there's so much inherent intelligence inside the human race that's gone undiscovered. Okay, because we haven't been willing to acknowledge how important the body is, and we've isolated the mind as our major form of intelligence. The brain is only one organ, there's 15 other ones? Well, each one of those organs has as much intelligence as the brain. But it's a different form of intelligence. Here's the wonderful thing. We have a God that created a bodies. Okay? If a human created the body, we'd be stuck with just one form of intelligence, right? But you have a God that created the body, do you think that someone would send you to earth a God, a God would send you to Earth without being equipped with what you need already inside of you.
Philip Pape 56:14
It's a beautiful concept, right? That there's this, this unleashed or not unleashed potential that we need to unleash. So I think the listeners are gonna have to probably listen to this one a couple times to absorb everything we've talked about here. I know, we're short on time, we could keep going on forever, probably. But I'd like to ask guests, Christopher, what, if there's anything that I you wish I would have asked you that we didn't cover? And if so, what would be your answer?
Christopher Maher 56:44
What's the most important thing to understand? When you're talking about human development?
Philip Pape 56:52
Okay. Please answer the question. I'd like to know.
Christopher Maher 56:56
Yeah, yeah, the most important thing to understand is intent. And that intent is the driver. For anything that happens, like whenever you're looking around the world, and you see a result, that result was created by someone's intent, whether it's harmful, or it's helpful. Okay, so knowing that, well, if someone else can create an intent, that would create harm, that means I can create an intent that would create health, ease and grace. So I think the most important thing for anyone who's in health and wellness is take five minutes, pull the chair up to a mirror, look inside of your own eyes, and ask yourself, Why am I here? What do you need? And how can I help you? And connect to your soul to get your answers rather than your negatively conditioned personality? Connect to the inside of you, and ask those deeper questions. And then once you have those answers, start setting clear intents around what it is you want to experience in relationship to the answers that came back from your soul. And if you're willing to spend five minutes, and I spent two hours 27 years ago, I spent two hours in front of a mirror. And I got the help that I really needed. Okay, because I was willing to ask myself those questions. And now I have a life while I'm in service continuously. And every moment is magical.
Philip Pape 58:44
Look at yourself in the mirror and ask Why am I here? What do you what do you need? And how can I help you? Yeah. And then use intent to
Christopher Maher 58:53
bring it to drive those answers. Right. Exactly. Right. Love that. Yeah, well, let's
Philip Pape 58:57
let's leave it at that. I do want to ask you, Christopher, where people can learn about you and learn about your
Christopher Maher 59:03
work. You can go to true body intelligence.com We're redoing the website case you have some comments, withhold those and read the book I wrote. I mean, it's simple. I'm actually I'll read the book, listen to the book that I wrote. It's called Free for life, the US Navy SEALs unique path to inner freedom and outer peace. And then if you want to get in contact with me, you always have to read the book first. Then you email my assistant at support at true body intelligence.com. And then she will set you up for a phone call. And if you decide like you'd like to learn from me as a student, or you'd like me to work with you privately, then I'm open to that conversation.
Philip Pape 59:53
Excellent. And you suggested for your book free for life to get the audio book. Is it by you? Yes, it's
Christopher Maher 59:59
narrated by me
Philip Pape 1:00:00
yeah well nine Apple know your voice now and yeah, hopefully the trust in that like, oh yeah, this will be a relaxing experience and the lightning one as well. So all right well I will definitely include those in the show notes and give you all the love and you know the attention that's that comes out of this episode of of sharing with the world and hopefully people have taken a lot from this I know I have you've given me things to think about. And even the the exercise at the end to go into the mirror and just do that is very helpful. So thank you. It's truly an honor and pleasure to have you on the show, Christopher.
Christopher Maher 1:00:30
Oh, dude, it was a pleasure to be here, man. You're very talented at what you do. And you're obviously passionate about helping people and you care. And I could that came across from me the whole time. Appreciate that. So really, thanks to you for advice. Share with your peeps.
Philip Pape 1:00:50
Thank you. Thank you for tuning in to another episode of Wits & Weights. If you found value in today's episode, and know someone else who's looking to level up their Wits & Weights. Please take a moment to share this episode with them. And make sure to hit the Follow button in your podcast platform right now to catch the next episode. Until then, stay strong.
Ep 82: How to Bulk and Lose Fat to Maximize Muscle Gain and Get Ripped with Andy Morgan
Today I'm honored to sit down with none other than Andy Morgan, the passionate, knowledgeable, and well-muscled force behind RippedBody.com. You'll learn about Andy's experiences, his no-nonsense approach to fitness communication, and his thoughts on training, muscle-building and fat loss phases, and related topics like body fat percentage, scale weight fluctuations, and challenges during fat loss. Andy will also share his insights on the fitness industry, using data and solid principles to get results.
Today I'm honored to sit down with none other than Andy Morgan, the passionate, knowledgeable, and well-muscled force behind RippedBody.com. Originally from the UK but living in Tokyo, Andy has carved out a very clear path in the crowded world of fitness, and I've learned a ton from his books and online content, which is why I had to invite him on the show.
Today you'll learn about Andy's experiences, his no-nonsense approach to fitness communication, and his thoughts on training, muscle-building and fat loss phases, and related topics like body fat percentage, scale weight fluctuations, and challenges during fat loss. Andy will also share his insights on the fitness industry, using data and solid principles to get results.
Andy Morgan is a fitness coach, author, and entrepreneur who has been helping people achieve their physique goals for over a decade. He works with busy working professional men who are recreational, physique-focused trainees, and he uses a simple but data-driven and effective approach with his clients.
In addition to his website RippedBody.com, he co-authored the hugely popular Muscle and Strength Pyramids and wrote The Diet Adjustments Manual to eliminate guesswork during cuts and bulks. What I really appreciate about his content is how he simplifies complex concepts but uses data to back everything up while calling out the nonsense in the fitness industry with a healthy level of skepticism.
__________
Book a FREE 30-minute call with Philip here.
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Today you’ll learn all about:
[3:38] How Andy developed his approach to fitness communication
[7:13] How he communicates the science and principles of nutrition and training and their applications
[15:54] Advice to people who want to start lifting
[19:56] How staying longer in the muscle-building phase is beneficial
[33:02] Andy's recommended rate of gain
[39:03] How important are body-fat percentages, and Andy's thoughts on using photos
[49:31] Training during the fat loss phase
[55:44] What is Andy most proud of in his coaching career
[59:46] Where to learn more about Andy
[1:00:56] Outro
Episode resources:
Andy’s website: rippedbody.com
Instagram: @andy_rippedbody
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https://witsandweights.com/free-call
Learn about 1-on-1 coaching ⬇️
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Transcript
Andy Morgan 00:00
When you're new to lifting, you're gonna get a certain amount of muscle gain and fat loss. At the same time. However, the more advanced you get, the harder it is to achieve both at the same time to any measurable degree. And when it's very hard to measure something, it's very hard to manage for it. And then it's very hard to stay motivated.
Philip Pape 00:26
Welcome to the Wits & Weights podcast. I'm your host, Philip pape, and this twice a week podcast is dedicated to helping you achieve physical self mastery by getting stronger. Optimizing your nutrition and upgrading your body composition will uncover science backed strategies for movement, metabolism, muscle and mindset with a skeptical eye on the fitness industry, so you can look and feel your absolute best. Let's dive right in Wits & Weights community Welcome to another episode of the Wits & Weights Podcast. Today I'm honored to sit down with none other than Andy Morgan, the passionate, knowledgeable and well muscled force behind ripped body.com originally from the UK, but living in Tokyo, and he's carved out a very clear path in the crowded world of fitness. And I've learned a ton from his books and online content, which is why I had to invite him on the show. Today you'll learn about Andy's experiences his no nonsense approach to fitness communication and his thoughts on training, muscle building and fat loss phases, and maybe some related topics like body fat percentage scale weight fluctuations, and challenges during fat loss. And he will also share his insights on the fitness industry using data and principles to get results. Andy Morgan is a fitness coach, author and entrepreneur who has been helping people achieve their physique goals for over a decade. He works with busy working professional men who are recreational physique focus trainees, and he uses a simple but data driven effective approach with them. In addition to his website, ripped body.com. He co authored the hugely popular muscle and strength pyramids, and wrote the diet adjustments manual for eliminating guesswork during cuts and books. What I really appreciated about his content is how he simplifies complex concepts, but uses data to back everything up while calling out the nonsense in the fitness industry with a healthy level of skepticism. Andy, it is a pleasure man to welcome you to the show.
Andy Morgan 02:16
Felipe Thank you honored to be on and frankly, I would love to hire you to walk into every room 30 seconds before I walk into that room just to announce to people quite who is walking in. And I didn't realize how important and special I am. And now I do. And you know, I've got all those warm, fuzzy feels.
Philip Pape 02:36
That's what I wanted. Man. I wanted that warm, fuzzy feeling with you to really break the ice. And it's funny because we talked we were talking about the the intros to the podcast beforehand. Some people read them live, some people record them and I learned years ago and trying to do speeches with people how important was to introduce them live. And so I like to carry that spirit into a podcast.
Andy Morgan 02:58
Yeah, you make a good point, though. I am currently on a break from my pod, but I think it works super well. And I'm going to switch that style as well. Actually, there's a couple of things that I've picked up from listening to your podcast that Mike. Yeah, that really, really? Yes.
Philip Pape 03:13
That's awesome, man.
03:14
It's good. It's good.
Philip Pape 03:15
That's great. All right, because I'm telling people, man that I've kind of been idolizing you for a bit since I got into your work years ago. And I invited you on. I'm like, I gotta have Andy on. That'd be awesome. And so that that makes me feel warm and fuzzy, by the way. So here we go. It's a love fest on the show. All right. So speaking of one of the things that appeals to me about you, and how you communicate is you get right to the point. And I think the first time I was exposed to your work was it used to be called The Last Read, right? And now it's the diet adjustments manual. I had an on Kindle or something back in the day. And I have no idea how to control my results. And some of the stuff you broke down very simply do this. Here are the steps. Here's some stick figures that explain who you are. And here's some graphs that tell you how it works. People overcomplicate things all the time. Right. And that was refreshingly the opposite. So how did you get to this point and develop that unique style that you have?
Andy Morgan 04:13
That's quite a tricky question. Ultimately, I've always been writing for myself. But at this point, my early 20s self it's the stuff that I wish I knew, written in a way that I that would have resonated with me. And now as I've gotten older, the the way that that would have resonated with me that language has changed slightly. But it's always been about trying to simplify and save myself from the, the vast, vast amounts of nonsense out there in the fitness industry. So I want people to stumble across the website and feel? Alone. Wonderful. Someone who's not just trying to trick me out of my money, someone who doesn't have a little supplements at the end, I'm not saying that all supplements are nonsense, but the vast majority are. And so if I was to start selling one, in all of a sudden, you're going to question my credibility for all of them. So they don't. And, you know, they can read the website, yes, they could purchase a book, if they want to get pretty much what is on the website, but with in a more organized fashion. And that would be worth their time and money. And a lot of people feel so bad. No, it's all free. All the results are here from different clients over the years. And then if these are the client results that I have, then obviously, they can imagine that it's probably 10x more readers, and they've had similar results. And then there's a very non in your face. Look, if you're interested in coaching, go here, this is what I do. So I've tried to make it all about helping myself back then not go through all of the crap that I went through, in my physique struggle to get where I am now. It's like, the mentor that I wish I had. That's kind of the approach that I've tried to take to it.
Philip Pape 06:29
Okay, okay, which is probably at that, like, at the feeling when I go to your website, like this is just right there, like the information is there. There's nothing I have to wade through, and I have to go and click a million links. And I'll have to figure out what you're talking about. Probably the original book appealed to me to appeal to me that way, as well. And maybe it's why a lot of us do what we do, like with this podcast, you know, I went through years and years for decades of not knowing. And then it's like, I've learned from guys like Danny and others, like, it's just simple principles that you can apply, you know, lift heavy, you know, be consistently whatever they are. And I want to help people get that shortcut. So it sounds like you're doing that, as evidenced by the whitespace on your site and the clear information. So I love that. Thank you. Well, we talked about evidence based fitness and nutrition science and research that some of that is where it can get very overwhelming even though it's great information and great work people are doing. How does that reconcile with the idea of providing simple, simple, actionable advice? Like why should people trust you that you are telling them the truth, so to speak, because you're cutting all that other fluff out?
Andy Morgan 07:32
Why should people trust me? That's a difficult question. May I come back to that? Yeah, sure. I think the key is a science communicator that I am, I consider myself to be a layer down from my co author, Eric Helms, who I know that you've had on as well as the co author on the muscle and strength pyramid books. He sits in between myself and the, the actual researchers, and yes, he's, he's done research himself, but generally, he's a science communicator, translating and explaining the latest studies, he's directly reading those himself, he and his colleagues, between them, they will read something like two 300. Maybe under doing it their per month, scouring as many relevant journals as there are out there, and then putting out the most relevant information for us who are chasing physique and a strength and body common goals. And so, I learned from that, as a fitness professional myself, anyone else who's not a fitness professional is welcome to learn from that. But often that content is a little too heavy for the average person to dig into. And so I write for the person I kind of serve as an intermediate layer. Writing for now, it's, you know, I'm gonna turn 40 This year, people my age, generally, they're married with kids, they're getting well on in their careers, they're usually doing really well there. They have given their, you know, they give it all to their career and to their family. They've ended up letting their physical health slip, and they're far from the prime that they had while they were in college. And they want to get that back but they just don't feel they have time or they felt that there. They feel guilty about giving time to it and when they have tried to give time to it. They just kind of got sucked in by different fad diets or pills, potions, false promises of the fitness industry, and they tend to often they tend to at some point, sadly He quit, because they just get ripped off with tricks so much and think this isn't allowed me a certain portion of those who are left they've kept on persevering. They come to my website, or those or your podcast or, you know, people like us, and they're like, Ah, okay, well, this is information that is simple enough for me to apply. It's just a, if this is your situation, Do this, do this, do this, do this, a little bit of, of course, contextual language here, you know, explaining for different circumstances, but it's very much a how to, rather than too much of a science done. And the way that I try to be a say a little different is I try to help people understand the principles of nutrition and training and body comp, which is mainly body comp, it's not so much on the powerlifting strength side, although they kind of go hand in hand, as as you know, I try to help people to understand the frameworks that go behind the decisions that they can make, so that they're then free to make those decisions themselves. And they understand why a certain decision is the right decision for them at that time. So what do I mean by that, I'll give one quick example of a framework. And then one example of how to apply a framework might be the nutrition pyramid, that Eric popularized, I think, in a 2013 video on YouTube, talking about how adherence is obviously the foundational layer of the pyramid. And then as you ascend up the pyramid, the things get less and less important. So after adherence, you know, sticking to what you can actually do, then we've got calorie balance, then we've got macronutrient, intake, then micronutrients and water. After that, and nutrient timing, this is your meal timing. And then after that supplements. So this is a framework for thinking of the pyramid of importance. So if you're thinking about what supplements you should be taking, but ignoring calorie balance, well, this is getting this is putting the cart before the horse, this is getting things out of order, and you're unlikely to get to where you want to go. Now, given that this is the pyramid of importance, at certain phases, at certain points in our life, we may decide to try to implement all layers of this pyramid in a in as rigorous and as optimal, quote, unquote, optimal way as possible. However, there will come times, let's say you get married, have kids have a really busy time at work, where you are just totally unable to then have the perfect, perfectly spaced for meals with your optimal morning training session, after you're perfectly timed one hour before protein shake, because otherwise you'd be training fasted. And, you know, you have to then know, okay, how far can I simplify things, given my situation, without really compromising my results, or by compromising my results by the minimal amount? Because when people don't know that, they get themselves into this? All or nothing mentality, which is the key thing that I tried to get clients to avoid. So I've been coaching now for over 12 years. If I see a client, who is able to do what they can when they can, but except when they fall short, but still do what they can not just like be like, they, they have the effort mentality. I don't know what your policy is on swearing here, but they're like, I can't do this. So I'm not going to do any of it. This is a breakfast buffet, my family want to eat this breakfast buffet while I'm away. Normally, I don't eat breakfast. So how I'm just going to enjoy this vacation and have my breakfast and I have all of the ice creams and you know, they're just everything goes to hell. If they can, if they understand where they can make compromises, or make simplifications without really compromising their results, then that gives people freedom. And that's what I want. Yeah.
Philip Pape 14:51
I think you explain that very well, from the context of having the framework because adherents are consistency we use works like that. And people do conflate that with always on the game, always doing what you have to do every day. And as soon as you mess up, it goes off the rails. So I like how you spoke to your audience, which is also a lot of my audience, and it's me, technically, people who are around 40, I'm 42. This evening on that much time, let's get real, like, this is reality, right? You're not going to, like you said, you're not gonna work out at 5am Every day, have your carbon protein before and after, you know, have exactly everything, everything lined up. So I like that. So you were you work with physique, focused men who are already lifting? So there's sort of a premise that they have some level of understanding or education about that it's coming in working with, which is good, right? That's like your carving, you know, who, where do you need to be first before I work with you. So I actually want to focus just on the left side of that point, just for a second, because on your site, you say, Hey, you can get a personal trainer, you know, I don't work with people directly in person, it's an online thing you have to be lifting. Do you have advice for people who want to seriously lift, they're lacking the information, and what kind of programming resources should they follow to get to that point where you can help them.
Andy Morgan 16:12
So I would like to think that those people could come to my website, read it, implement it, and know exactly what to do it the coaching, the coaching is for a more specific niche. And part of that is marketing. And part of that is, because that's what I'm good at, because that's what we are good at, but written body. But they're kind of feed fed themselves over time. And it's become a self fulfilling thing. So as I've niche down further and further, so it's like only people who lift only people, only men, only men who are over this age, only people who agreed to not use their phones, When emailing because we do everything over email. And people come in constant when they using their phones with email. It's just kind of become, we've got better and better and better at this niche, and worse at everything else. But the website, I like to think of it as you know, day to day when I'm introduced to people, and I want to be able to say to them, oh yeah, just go to the website. And know that they can be, they can get what they need from that. So there's some simple programs on there, we've actually got the programs and the muscle and strength pyramids on there, we've got a few others for free as well. We've got some simple nutrition guidelines on there. We've got an guides for form, we've developed some myself actually on, I have a Japanese website as well. And with the Japanese team, we, we developed a product for how to bench squat and deadlift. But I've got some free guides on the website. That's our comm slash squat, slash deadlift, slash bench. And then those are all free. Eric Helms and his team at 3d muscle journey, they've got a great resources, they've got something called their lifting library, which will teach you the form of pretty much all of the lifts that you'll find in the gym and how to execute them properly. Which seems obvious, but it can, it's something worth revisiting, let's say every, if you're new, say every couple of months, and then after that, maybe every year or so. Because you can forget. But I've also got resources section, so rubberduck COMM slash resources, and you can see my recommended resources, and then where for readers, and then also where I learned from. So yeah, I Yeah, that's what I'd recommend. And the reason I say that I say my own stuff, and you know, I've kind of poured my heart and soul into that. So it's not necessarily an actual thing I can say, Yeah, okay, my stuff. I can vouch for that. And then, you know, there's so much other stuff that I could say, but you know, when you give them a let's get an option,
Philip Pape 19:17
yeah, no, that's good. And I think in like one of my very first episodes on this podcast, I'm sure I mentioned, among a very few select resources, one of them mean like starting strength and some stuff by Greg knuckles. And I think I mentioned you're, like 42 video, lifting guide or whatever it is 42 Whatever it is, something like that, right? Because I do think it's important that people you know, start from where they're at, but if they know when it gets to a certain point, and take advantage of these other resources, they have to have these prerequisites in place. It's kind of like when people talk about just wanting to lose weight or lose fat like Well, are you training it? No. What does it have to do with losing family? Well, there's a big connection between, you know, body composition and and training. So I think that's important. Going back real quick to the requirements you have one of those is that people eat meat? Is that also just from the natural process of niching? Down? Or is that a more specific thing because of the challenges of working with vegans or vegetarians, like on the protein side.
Andy Morgan 20:10
So this is gonna sound like a weird one. But there was a time that I can basically remove it now. I would say, when it's vegan, things get more complicated. Although someone's vegetarian, it doesn't really matter. There was a time when I thought that it was a big deal. But it doesn't seem so anymore. whether someone's protein sources going to be animal versus plant based, as long as they're eating a sufficient amount of protein in total, then pretty much good. All the research seems to show that they're pretty much good. So yeah, I could, I could take that way.
Philip Pape 20:55
There you go, man. So update update the say, No, that's got us wondering, because I've been interviewing guys and talking a lot about plant, just talk to Eric Trexler, too, because he's all plant based, and just really trying to understand that topic. And you're right, the more and more we find out, it is simple against simple principles of just getting enough protein is the big part of the pyramid. Right? The other stuff is it is gravy as icing, if it's even necessary for other things like nutrients or hard health or whatever. Cool.
Andy Morgan 21:26
So it's yeah, it's when you know, like the the kind of when you can peek behind the matrix and look at these, you know, the different? How can I say you've got the different mental maps, you've got the different layers, the principles here, you can kind of see, okay, fat loss, what is that, in the simplest times, okay, you want to have a calorie deficit, which means that you're burning more than you are taking in, whether that's liquid sort of solid drinks or food. And so then, if you were to have roughly, in fact, I'm not even going to go that deep, I'm not even going to talk about the number of calories. So burn more than you take in, and then tell your body to hang on to muscle mass, the next most important thing is to tell it to hang on to muscle mass with strength training, some form of hard resistance training, that's hard enough to tell it that that muscle that you have is important. And the more training experience you have, the harder you're going to need, the newer you are, the less you'll need. And then the next layer on that is going to be eating a sufficient amount of protein getting enough protein in the day in total. And then the spacing of that protein, the spacing of those calories and where those calories are coming from. Otherwise, that's all much much, much lower down on the pyramid of import of sorry, much higher up on the pyramid of importance. It means Yeah, so much smaller, much, much less important. Sorry, the one thing I needed to mention there in terms of calories is losing weight at an appropriate rate. So this isn't two ways, that's what you can sustain. And then that it's at an appropriate rate for your current level of body fat. So if you are carrying a lot of body fat, you can get away with faster rates of weight loss than someone who's say sub 10% body fat and going to be stepping on a bodybuilding stage in a couple of months. For those people, they need to be very, very careful about their rate of body fat. So something between point five and 1%. The sweet spot tends to be point seven, five for average folks, and then maybe about point 5%. For those who are, you know, getting very, very lean, and then you can nudge up and down from there. Based on your mood, energy levels, how your sleep is going hunger, etc. Yeah.
Philip Pape 24:06
And that's where you start to get into the little extra corner cases that people ask all the questions about right like, but what about me with this, you know, what about this? But it still comes down to principles. So I like the idea, just starting from the basics. And then if you got those down, because if not, let's not even worry about the rest just yet. But before we get to fatloss one question I wanted to pick your brain on because I I'm not sure I've seen the most clear answer on why this is the case. But when we talk about muscle building, and one concept I learned from you early on was stay in that muscle building phase for like 567 months, you know, a decent amount of time. Don't do it for only three months. But break it down for this. Why is why is it important physiologically, maybe it's neuromuscular? Maybe it's hormone something when you build for six instead of three months?
Andy Morgan 24:54
Sure, so I'm not I'm not good at the science.
24:58
Okay. The same way that however you want to explain it, I'm Derrick Alex's privato, folders, etc. But
Andy Morgan 25:05
the in broad times, when you, if we back up for a second, when you're new to lifting, you're gonna get a certain amount of muscle gain and fat loss. At the same time. However, the more advanced you get, the harder it is to achieve both at the same time to any measurable degree. And when it's very hard to measure something, it's very hard to manage for it. And then it's very hard to stay motivated. And so you need to then choose between phases of fat loss and phases of weight gain with the goal of mainly muscle gain, or rather with the goal of muscle gain, which is unfortunately going to attain some fat regain. But that's just how it is. Now, in many cases, that's going to be obvious. People know whether they need to lean at football cup. And there are some cases where it's not. And I've kind of written a nice call about that. If you just go to rip out comm slash cut hyphen, or hyphen, bulk, I've tried to keep all the URLs as obvious as possible.
Philip Pape 26:20
That's a listener actually, that's a go to for sure.
Andy Morgan 26:24
Thank you, thank you, this cut hyphen or hyphen book, I've tried to keep them simple. So people can just type guests as they type things in. And then if it doesn't come up, then there's a search box, and it'll come up. So then, so then what you need to know is that Celeste, you're cycling between cut and bulk phases. But when you end the cut and transition into a bulk your body, there are some hormonal changes that take place when we cut, and there are some hormonal changes that happen, kind of reverse. And also some new ones that happen as we move into a calorie surplus. But there's a lag on the timing there. And because there's a lag on the timing there, you can't just switch from a cut to a bulk, do that for three months, and then switch straight back into a cut and think that you are having three months of pure, highly optimized muscle gain period, because your body just isn't in a state where it's charged to be gaining muscle just yet, it can take a few weeks. And so and potentially longer depending on how lean you got and how long your previous cut was. And so that's one thing. That's one reason why you want to have longer booking periods than just say a short three months. The second is, muscle gain is exceptionally slow. Let's say you're an you're an intermediate lifter, you're gaining point seven 5%. Which would be good actually, point seven 5% of your bodyweight as muscle mass per month, let's say that you could do that, that might be about a pound of muscle per month. If you were to gain in the two months, you have left there, two pounds of muscle when you cut down again, because you're going to have to cut the fat off that you've gained, are you going to actually be able to notice that difference? Probably not right. And then it's going to be very difficult to feel that you've that that time that you've spent has been worth it. And so then that's going to be it's going to have a big chip on your motivation. So you need to spend longer enough that you have that you give your body enough time to accrue enough muscle mass so that once you've cut back down again, and you've revealed all that muscle mass after you've taken that cumulative fat gain off, you're looking at enough of a difference where you're like, yes, I've done it. Yeah, you know, like
Philip Pape 29:26
Eddie ripped off like it was Superman. Like, you know, he just ripped off the shirt. Yeah.
Andy Morgan 29:31
I wasn't quite sure. But I'll take it. Yeah, it's like, yeah, I feel that this was absolutely worth it. So you might say cut for. I don't depending on how much body fat you have. It could be three months, it could be six months, and then you're going to move into a bulk phase. And let's say you bulk for only like four or five months. And then you cut the fat off again. It potentially could take you just a couple of months. But let's say you dig around a bit and it takes you three and a half months because you struggle to get Get back into it. Or then now you've spent in that bulk and then cut, you've spent like eight and a half months, and you've got maybe four pounds of muscle to show for it. And you can't really tell because muscle muscle and muscle mass is a really tricky thing. Yeah, you you it benefits you to have longer bulk phases. Yeah. And then I like that. Yeah, go ahead. No. And then the trick, of course, or the part where people get themselves in a mess, is that they, they don't get lean enough, before they balk. And so they end their bulking phases, or gaining phases of bulk is a scary word for you. They end their gaining phases too early, because they start feeling too fat. And then, of course, they end up in that problem that I just said, where they don't feel that they've actually made a meaningful difference. So very often. Rather, one good way of thinking of it is that the, the bulkhead phase should be spent at the extremes. At the point where you're failing on the bulk end, the end of the bulk end, slightly too fluffy. And on that end of the cut phase, slightly too lean for your comfort. And you try to just navigate between kind of in waves, and between those two levels. So the never feeling so uncomfortable that you want to that you want or need to stop.
Philip Pape 31:37
So much of what you said is psychological, right? Let's just be honest, like the only the first point was related to this lag of hormones getting out of metabolic adaptation, recovering, and moving past that, but the rest of it is so important. And I can attest to the. And I'm still figuring it out. Because I've only been doing this for like three, four years myself. And it's like, when I get lean, I'm like, am I lean enough? You know, how is this good, I can see the six pack, but like not enough, maybe it should I just but then at the same time, and you didn't mention this benefit is I want to be eating a lot of food most of the year, like let's just be honest, I want to be in a bowl for most of the year. And that's one benefit. I tell people to just do you want to be dieting all the time, like you have in the past and then struggling or just like three to one four to one ratio of being in a surplus. But the point about not being lean enough, is good, because you I think you talked about in some of your content, like if you first have a lot of weight to lose, you're gonna get that off, and you can get down to certain point in your in this range. Now, where's that range for you? Right? Hey, this is Philip. And I hope you're enjoying this episode of Wits & Weights. If you're finding value in the content and want to stay up to date with all our latest episodes, be sure to hit the Follow button on your favorite podcast platform. By following you'll get notified whenever a new episode comes out. And you won't miss out on knowledge and strategies to level up your health and fitness. All right, let's get back to the episode. And before we get there, the muscle building rate of gain. So the evidence says hey point one 2.25% of your body weight per week, which always seemed pretty tight and precise to get to. And I know we both use macro factor now that kind of helps. But I've seen you recommend higher than that for like newer lifters. Right like point 4% is something like a one and a quarter one and a half pound a month something or for Yeah,
Andy Morgan 33:25
I don't actually think in terms of weeks. I'm having a making me do my
Philip Pape 33:31
point. Florida 1% A month there. Yeah, point 41%. What is your recommended rate again, based on training age? Let's just put it that way.
Andy Morgan 33:38
Yeah, sure. So. So I work with guys. Most guys, by the time they come to a bulking phase, they're going to be somewhere between 140 and two underpants, depending on how tall they are. Alright, and their level of training experience, right? Say 130, sorry, it could be lower. Actually, obviously, depending on height, of course, you take the extremes of the height range here and the extremes of the level of lifting experience. And there are going to be outliers here. But let's say somewhere between 140 and 200 pounds. Practically, then, what that means is that the the rate of gain that I would recommend is typically somewhere between two and three pounds per month. And this is because I don't tend to work with really really advanced lifters and I don't tend to work with the completely new people. And that two to three pounds a month. This is something that is measurable and therefore manageable and something that people can stay motivated for. Anything less than, say two pounds a month or point five pounds per week is going to be very hard to measure because of course of the fluctuations in it. In weight from water got got content and glycogen changes, even if you are taking daily averages. And so what does that work out to? about somewhere between one and 1.5% of body weight, so sorry, somewhere between one and 2% of their body weight. And part of that is, you'll notice a difference there. You've got point four 1%, you said per month, right? And I'm talking about, well, somewhere between one and 2% per month, which is double. And that's purposeful, because I'm acknowledging that some of the weight that you're going to gain is going to be fat. And if you are to set your rate of weight gain at the maximum muscular potential, or that sorry, at the likely rate of muscle gain, if you do everything right. Well, I've never seen anyone only gain muscle. So we may as well set our calorie surplus higher, so that we've got enough of a buffer there to maximize our potential muscle gain at that time. So if you were to only try and gain a pound per month, and let's say that you could measure and manage for that, and technically, yes, you should be gaining a pound of muscle, well, you're probably only going to get half a pound of muscle and half a pound of fat anyway. So just bank on the fact that you're gonna get half man, half fat. If you do everything, right, or the best case half of its going to be fat anyway. And, and and plan for that, and accept that. Now, the thing to say to yourself is like, Look just before, you know, you're saying, Am I lean enough. But one way of thinking about this, if you are in that range of what I just said, and you can maybe take a third off of this if you're smaller, or you're female. Once you're at the point where you think you can bulk, ask yourself over the next six to seven months, if I were to gain 10 pounds of body fat, and 20 to 25 pounds overall. Would I be okay with that? And if the answer's no, you may need to get leaner. And of course, you need to modify those numbers down if you are a smaller person. But for the guys I work with that works out it's a fair heuristic. And for some of them, they would not feel comfortable, they can just look back at their photos, you know, previously, or their measurements. And they know so then they know they need to get leaner, and if they feel that they can, because their hunger fatigue levels of manageable and their training is still going well enough. And the performance is still okay. Then, yeah, then they'll continue with that. And then last thing, and then I'll shut up. The reason I say 25 pounds, even I said 10 pounds of fat. And we're talking about a theoretical one on one. So the reason I said 25 Or not 20 pounds that because we're going to have anywhere from like, two to five pounds of water, gut content and glycogen regain after to overshoot the finish the cut? Yeah, exactly.
Philip Pape 38:31
I love it, man. So this is again, where it's like decision points. It's decision trees, at least the engineer in me enjoys that. Like if this this if this this. If you're good gaining 25 pounds and 10 of that is fat. Then go then you're lean enough, right? So I'm going to my friend Carl, I hope he's listening. Actually, the episode with him just came out today and he's bulking and I think he can push him more. So listen to this, listen to this that I hear my man. And I might change my rate again and macro factor myself who knows? We'll see. Really push it. So body fat percentage is another aspect of this, right? Because you talk a lot about using photos which is which which is I'll say objective like we call it subjective. But in reality, it's something you can see change over time. I mean, that's my opinion. You also talk about using the Navy calculator, which I found is pretty good for trends. You know. My question is should we care about body fat percentage really like the number should we care? And if so, why are most methods pretty much horribly inaccurate? And photos still the way to go? Is that your recommendation?
Andy Morgan 39:35
So I listened to your buddy Carl, listen to the episode. Parts of it anyway. And so I disagree with him on on this one. Because he mentioned who we got, you know,
Philip Pape 39:52
I don't like to I don't call out. Yes, you know, no,
Andy Morgan 39:55
no, no, no, I'm not. I'm not knocking someone. One of the pitfalls of Using a body fat percentage measurement device,
Philip Pape 40:03
or the Rambler device? Oh, yeah, I gotta call them out on that, I hear what you're saying,
Andy Morgan 40:08
I assume so bioelectrical impedance analysis, I assume it was most of these home devices aren't, it's something where you step onto a scale, they've got some metal plates, it sends an electric current through your body. And it's not actually measuring body fat percentage, it's measuring the resistance of current, it's then the sorry, the impedance. And then, based on some clever equations, it's then estimating your fat free mass, and then based on your scale weights, and coming up with a number for an estimation of your body fat, unfortunately, hydration status, have glycogen status, which is how many carbs we've eaten recently, and therefore, how have full muscles are, how full our guts are, with food, which is going to change not just whether we've just pooped, or a lot, or a little, but also the types of foods that we've had. Because we don't eat, what most people don't eat the same thing every day. And so you're going to have fluctuations in these readings. And so the problem is, not only are these machines that we have access to, not only are they inaccurate, but they aren't necessarily consistent with their readings either. And so you can be 2% down one day, 2% up in two weeks time, despite feeling and seeing that your shorts are physically looser, it can tell you that you're you've gained a couple of percentage points of body fat, and because people tend to look at, but of course, cow is a product, he knows. He knows that that is impossible, and he knows that it must be an erroneous reading. But the vast majority of people don't. They have an idea that gut says, we'll ship that's not right. But they're like, No, there's a number on this expensive machine that I paid for. And all the marketing says is amazing. And therefore I have definitely lost muscle and gain fat is what they told themselves. And then they get themselves into this mental spiral. And maybe they click and it's really sad. And so I never use any of these devices for clients. I don't even recommend they go for Dexter's DEXA scan, it's, it's expensive, it's a little better. Where these devices are useful is in assessing group averages, which is essential for research. And but for the individual, I recommend that we don't use them, I recommend taking weight, taking your weight each day and averaging it. And noting that at the end of the week, and then noting that across the week's macro factor, we'll do that for you. Which I know you're a fan of. And but you can just literally just write that down in a notebook. It's a math isn't hard, or a
Philip Pape 43:16
nerd out on this and people know It's 20 day exponential moving average. So put that in Excel. You're good to go. Yeah, it's that easy, right? Yeah. Yeah, you
43:28
could do it in your head.
Andy Morgan 43:30
And then lost my train of thought dammit. Put me up, put me up
Philip Pape 43:35
about using the photos. You were saying? Yeah, you could use a weight scale recommend other measures? Yep.
Andy Morgan 43:42
Yeah. So scale away. Note the averages if you want to do all in your head. In fact, this is how I do it with clients. I don't use a moving average. I just have a look at the the averages across the weeks. And then I know what their adherence to their diets works. They know that in the spreadsheet as well. It's a percentage of their total calorie targets for the week. So if they go, say Timpson over, then they'll write 110% If they were 5%, under the under eight that week, it'll be 95%. So I can see that. And then I've got kind of a report telling me like any occasions where they went off their diet, and they maybe they had a birthday party or whatever. So now I know that timing compared with the numbers to then I know we're likely to be a bit bloated on that day. I'll then have them with their body measurements. I get people to do it in nine places. So their limbs, their. Their limbs when flexed their chest back measurement and their waist and three places on the stomach. So at the navel and then three finger widths above the navel, and then three, three finger widths below the navel and that's because fat loss tends to come top down, and isn't, doesn't come from everywhere at the same time. And so with those two things you can, with that combination of things you can capture how your progress is going with the photos, that's a good idea. I do get clients to take them every month, you could take them more often than that, but I wouldn't base any decisions on what you see in the photos more often than that data is really where I put the, I put the emphasis on when making decisions. And that's just because you know, photos, even with the same lighting, and the same time of day, it, it's, it's a bit subjective, and our mind can play tricks on us. We may be slightly more pumped up from particularly good session, or maybe you had a few more carbs and therefore muscles are for us, I really like to use those scale weight averages. measurement points along with the nutrition adherence when assessing these things, for sure,
Philip Pape 46:03
yeah, the more of this data you have, and it's not once you get in the routine, it's not that complicated to make it just part of your habit. Those key data points all come together, if anyone is missing, you're kind of missing that piece of the puzzle, right? If if, you know, if a client if their weight is not moving, well, is it really a plateau? Or would their body measurement show their waist going down? And they're, you know, going through body? recomp? Things like that. Right? Um, you talked to one of your reels you, you talked about skill? Wait, sorry, did you want to say something? Yeah, it
Andy Morgan 46:32
was just, I didn't answer your question. Forgive me for that. I'm sorry. Good. So so before we we come back to that, you asked me like, do I recommend is it important that people know their body fat percentage, right? Not really, I think it's most important that directionally, they are, they know whether they're making progress towards their goal. But then, you know, you can give descriptions around whether someone should bulk or cut. And as part of those descriptions that can be useful to give people an idea of what they might look like, when they're considering bulking when they should consider cutting. And so for that reason, I've got an article, I'll just call it my body fat guide, is body fat percentage pictures, compare your body fat level, so report.com/body-fat-guide. And then I've got a collection of what seven to 9% looks like, what 10 To 11% Looks like what 12 To 14% Looks like 15 17% looks like? It's all men, unfortunately, because these are all client photos over the years. But I've got, I think there are something like 50 photos in here of clients. So you can see what it's going to look like on different people at different heights, right at different body fat percentages. So then you can compare and get an idea for yourself. And I should caveat, this is all based on my eye. So I'm just kind of giving you an idea of what I think this is like, but hopefully that's helpful when you pair it with like the should I cuddlebug guide and that kind of thing showed in terms of assessing your progress? No, absolutely don't need to know it. And yeah, I just think it's a it's a it's a game that's gonna, that you can't win, and it's gonna lead to heartache.
Philip Pape 48:29
It's true. All right, yeah. And those physique photos are helpful, especially when you have people of different body types at the same body fat percentage can look different. And so you kind of find, you know, where's my body typing there, and then you realize how delusional you are about your body.
Andy Morgan 48:45
Essentially, like that there's a the golden rule is, you are fatter than you think. And when you finish your first cut, you will be you will have less muscle mass than you thought. Sorry, it's haven't met a single person ever, ever. breaks those those rules.
Philip Pape 49:05
So when you are in a cut, then let's let's get segue to this. There's conflicting information about certain things in a fat loss phase, like how to train right? People think everything has to change in a fat loss phase dramatically. How to Train, how do I use cardio? You know, people get complicated with nonlinear dieting strategies. I'm actually doing a training on refeed days. So I understand like, that's one of those things, you know, most people don't need them, but some people will. What are some, I guess, questions or misconceptions that come up for you often during fat loss that people could really benefit? hearing your perspective on? It could be hunger, it could be psychological stress, whatever, whatever comes
Andy Morgan 49:41
to mind. Well so people talk a lot of shit on the internet, and in podcasts, and surprise price, right? And so then the questions that I get Ah, highly varied. So instead of answering your question, okay. I'm instead going to change this as, what do I recommend? That someone does? That'd be alright. Sure, go for it, please. Okay, so
50:19
plasma chain, remind me that the question again,
Philip Pape 50:23
fat loss during a fat loss phase, just what do you do? Because I was asking about training, cardio
Andy Morgan 50:29
training. Yeah. So how should someone think about training? Well, you have fewer calories coming in, so your body has far less potential to create muscle. While you are now in this calorie deficit is compromised your you risk going into a recovery deficit. So you can keep your training program that you used when you are bulking. But you need to be mindful that as you progress into your cut, you may start to feel unusually high levels of soreness, your joints may start to get crankier than normal, you may start to Well, you probably will start to plateau, and then potentially regress with your lifts. And when any one of those things happen, you could consider just tapering back the training volume a little. Now you can do this on an individual lift basis. Or you could do this globally, I think you should consider a mix of both of these. So let's say that you've worked up to five sets of bench twice a week, when you're bulking and that was working really well. But as you are cutting, you're now find yourself struggling, or you find that your shoulders have started to get cranky, even though you haven't changed your form at all, you might consider for that exercise to reduce the number of sets that you do to four per session, so eight per week. Again, this is just an example. And then that the crankiness might resolve and you may be able to maintain your strength better there. Now, let's say that you start to feel really tired, is getting a drag getting out of bed, you're kind of dreading going to the gym, you're sore everywhere. Well, in that case, you might consider just globally reducing volume everywhere. Not necessarily everywhere, everywhere, but you might consider lopping off a set or two per movement per week. Actually, let's, let's make it even simpler, you may consider slashing one set from each of your exercises, barring perhaps for isolation work. So your main compound movements in each session, that will just be one very simple way of going about it. This is the basis of how I tend to think about these things. The training program itself does not need to radically change from a cut to a bulk phase, because what your body needs hasn't really changed, you need to tell it to hold on to that muscle mass. And that signal to hold on to the muscle mass, when you're in a calorie surplus is the same signal to grow. It's just the what you're fueling your body with the amount is different, so it can't. And then when it comes to cardio, I would just say that is one way of addressing calorie balance. It tends to be a fairly inefficient method for doing so. And yeah, it's it's something that should be used sparingly, because it's much easier to control your math than it is to. It's much easier to not have the 400 Calorie Frappuccino than it is to spend 50 minutes running for the equivalent energy button, if you're lucky, might be more than that. So while you can add cardio in, do it sparingly. And one thing I know that you're a fan of this as well, I believe you're a fan of this as well. It's just keeping up a minimum step count if you can, as you cut just so that your overall energy expenditure is kind of maintained. Because when we are in a calorie deficit, you know, we're in an energy deficit. We tend to get lazier, we're not necess already aware of it as step counts can plummet, and then that can make us forces to reduce food even further and further. So by purposefully keeping your step count up, it can really help make the diet more manageable because you're able to continue to eat more as a diet progresses.
Philip Pape 55:19
Yeah, for sure. I mean, some people don't realize how, how much of an impact that can have. And it happens pretty quickly, at least I've seen with some clients how just updated up in that sub panel within a week you start to see a response. Okay, do you have a hard stop? Because I know we're Time flew, this is a good conversation where it's been an hour. So maybe just one more question or two? Yeah, yeah. I wanted to ask you, what are you most proud of in your coaching career?
Andy Morgan 55:47
Hmm. So I get pride, pride is a tricky one. I like to think that the website is a good thing. It is in I'm proud of the website. Because there are many ways that I could have sold out to have many millions of dollars in the bank. But I chose not to. Because I wanted to do a good thing. And that's important to me, I want people to stumble across it. And, you know, just feel grateful for it. And to be one of the voices in the industry that you know, one of the few people in our corner the industry that's, you know, really doing right by people. Now, don't get me wrong, there are plenty of people that are good in this industry is just that the the charlatans, the bad ones, they tend to stick out, right, just because of how the algorithms work. So I think if I think about my career generally, is probably just the website and putting, trying to put out good quality information and not cluttering it up. And then the, the impact that that has, because what you know, while I'm sleeping, fat is positively impacting many people's lives and continues to do so. So it's not really about who I've worked with, or what I've done while working with people. It's about what the website is able to do. And then there's a process of that a small percentage of people decide to click the coaching page, read through, decide that it's for them, and then how to start a conversation and maybe hire me. And it's been a pleasure and honor to work with so many people. So it's all of that combined. Really.
Philip Pape 58:00
I love that answer, right? Because the web, if you just said the website, right? People want to know more because that it's just this thing out there that you've built, right, but reminds me of a science fiction book I read years ago where humanity was going to collapse. And they had to figure out how to how to encode all of our knowledge. And they'd like what's the one medium we can put it in, and it was stone, like carving on stone and putting it on Pluto or something right? And a website, as mundane as it sounds like you've put your heart and soul into it. And there's a level of integrity there. You will you said you want people to feel grateful, and I'm sure they thank you all the time, and I do as well. So you've been making that impact. Love that.
Andy Morgan 58:38
It's not that I want people to feel grateful. I know, that's not what
Philip Pape 58:43
I wrote on my notes that you said I probably miss. Sorry.
Andy Morgan 58:47
No, I want people to feel that this is something that they can trust. They can put it into practice, that they can just use it and not need to pay anything. And I think this just puts out, you know, good vibes in the world and those things come back. And then worst case, if everything goes tits up. I you know, I've got beer credits in many different cities around the world and then potentially even couches to sleep on. So
Philip Pape 59:18
yeah, well, you know, still they're gonna, they're gonna have gratitude because they were able to get that from your website. So that's all I'm gonna say. What are you saying that? Alright, so second, the last question. You knew this was coming? Is there a question you wish I had asked and what is your answer?
Andy Morgan 59:34
No. You've done a great job. I said at the start of this off the like, you're a good interviewer. You know me and you knew what to ask. And yeah, notice there's nothing
Philip Pape 59:45
but appreciate it. That's good enough answer for me. Where do you want listeners to find your work in case we didn't talk about your website? Enough, right.
59:54
Sorry about that. Yeah, no, no, I
Philip Pape 59:55
don't I don't mean that as a dig at all. I'm just saying people should know by now. Rip body.com But is there anywhere else? See?
Andy Morgan 1:00:00
Exactly. That's it. If you want to follow along on Instagram, it's Andy underscore ripped body. But the detailed stuff, it's all on. It's all on the website. The Instagram is some short reels. I tried to put the detailed information I have on the site into short real form, but it's really tricky. And I much prefer writing. And then in the stories, it's more just kind of like life in Japan and kind of what I do day to day.
Philip Pape 1:00:32
Yeah, yeah, the reels are good, because they're just, you know, how to everyday it's like a how to write you had one recently about weight fluctuations and how to experiment on yourself to see how much it fluctuates, right, like, right this way, see how much fluctuates weigh yourself, like before and after bed, see how much flux, so good stuff like that. All right, website IgM. And add all the links of course in the show notes. I appreciate everything. Appreciate your time and also listening to my show at a time. That's that's an honor to me. It was cool to have you on so thank you.
Andy Morgan 1:01:03
Thank you. I appreciate you. And thank you listeners for taking the time.
Philip Pape 1:01:10
Thank you for tuning in to another episode of Wits & Weights. If you found value in today's episode, and know someone else who's looking to level up their Wits & Weights, please take a moment to share this episode with them. And make sure to hit the Follow button in your podcast platform right now to catch the next episode. Until then, stay strong.
Ep 81: Wellness Through Positive Psychology and Upward Spiraling with Darlene Marshall
We are talking today with Darlene Marshall about the fascinating interplay between holistic wellness coaching and positive psychology and how it can help unlock your full potential. We'll go into holistic wellness, upward spiraling, habit priming, neurological flexibility, and more.
We are talking today with Darlene Marshall about the fascinating interplay between holistic wellness coaching and positive psychology and how it can help unlock your full potential. We'll go into holistic wellness, upward spiraling, habit priming, neurological flexibility, and more.
I met Darlene through Carl Berryman of Inspired by Impact podcast. I began following her podcast, which explores ancient traditions and modern science. Recent episodes cover topics like the benefits of time outdoors, mindset issues such as analysis paralysis, and the additive approach to nutrition.
Darlene Marshall is a Holistic Wellness Coach and an expert in fitness, wellness, and well-being. She was named America’s Favorite Trainer by BurnAlong in 2021. Darlene has Masters in Applied Positive Psychology, certifications in Nutrition Coaching, NLP, Alignment Yoga, and training in various areas.
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Book a FREE 30-minute call with Philip here.
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Today you’ll learn all about:
[3:00] Influence of positive psychology on coaching values and approach
[5:30] Shifting from a trainer to a holistic wellness coach
[7:44] Differences between applied positive psychology and traditional psychology
[11:42] Holistic wellness: definition and concept
[13:36] Emergent actualization and upward spiraling for resilience and performance
[22:46] Habit priming and the role of BDNF in neurological flexibility
[28:36] Helping those with negative mindsets and self-imposed limitations
[32:02] Max thanks Philip for helping him prioritize his health and dropping 45 Lbs
[32:48] Moving clients toward actualization
[35:37] Relationship between agency, empowerment, and co-dependence
[40:23] “Fake it till you make it” phenomenon and confidence-building
[41:05] Perspectives on the term “coach” and its appropriateness in fitness
[43:53] Leveraging emotions as information
[48:40] Balancing ancient traditions and modern science in wellness coaching
[52:50] Current trends, research, or developments in the fitness/wellness space
[56:19] Personal favorite episode or recurring theme in the Better Than Fine podcast
[1:00:38] The question Darlene wished Philip asked
[1:03:02] Where to find Darlene
[1:03:51] Outro
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Instagram: @darlene.coach
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Transcript
Darlene Marshall 00:00
So a lot of times what I'm trying to do is really look at, well, what is this thing that we think of as kind of Woo? Where is the science? underneath? The thing that most people think of as kind of Wuhan upward spirals is a perfect example. It sounds really hippie dippie. And in actuality, it's measurable effects.
Philip Pape 00:24
Welcome to the Wits & Weights podcast. I'm your host, Philip pape, and this twice a week podcast is dedicated to helping you achieve physical self mastery by getting stronger. Optimizing your nutrition and upgrading your body composition will uncover science backed strategies for movement, metabolism, muscle and mindset with a skeptical eye on the fitness industry so you can look and feel your absolute best. Let's dive right in. Wits & Weights community Welcome to another episode of the Wits & Weights podcast. We are talking today with Darlene Marshall about the fascinating interplay between holistic wellness coaching and positive psychology and how it can help you unlock your full potential. We'll explore the concept of holistic wellness how emotions can be used as information and the power of upward spiraling for building resilience and enhancing performance. We'll dive into habit priming neurological flexibility, and the balance between ancient traditions and modern science. Darlene Marshall is a holistic wellness coach who has been working in the fitness and wellness space since 2012. She's an expert at the intersection of fitness, wellness and wellbeing, and was named America's favorite trainer by Bernal along in 2021. She hosts the better than find podcast make sure to follow make sure to subscribe better than fine and is certified with NASM in wellness coaching and personal training. I was personally introduced to Darlene through my friend and fellow podcaster Carl Berryman of inspired by impact, and then I started following her podcast better than fine. And she explores the interplay between ancient traditions and modern science. So topics on her recent episodes, things like the benefit of time outdoors, mindset topics like analysis, paralysis, and even the additive approach to nutrition. So check it out. She has a master's in applied positive psychology from the University of Pennsylvania, and additional certifications in nutrition coaching, Neuro Linguistic Programming, 200 hour ytt and alignment yoga and training in sleep coaching, motivational interviewing, meditation, and mindfulness. You can find her on Instagram at Darlene dot coach or on her couch with her two cats. Darlene, I am truly excited to welcome you to the show. Hi, Philip,
Darlene Marshall 02:32
thank you so much for having me, I am excited to be here with you.
Philip Pape 02:35
Awesome. And I want to start right with that unique background you have we were talking about beforehand, which is holistic wellness coaching, but also this degree in applied positive psychology. And the combination really appeals to me, because behavior and psychology, they really seem to be at the heart of why people do or do not achieve the results they want. Or you know, put in place the wellness practices that that will serve them. So help me in the listener understand how your expertise in positive psychology has influenced your values in your approach as a coach, maybe it's even the foundation of your practice.
Darlene Marshall 03:09
I think it'd be hard for me to tease them apart at this point. But I you know, I came in the positive psychology space, primarily still working as a personal trainer. So I was teaching yoga and mindfulness meditation, working with my clients one on one, and entered the positive psychology space with every intention to primarily bring those tools back into a fitness context. And then the pandemic hit. And you know, obviously, things change for a lot of people. But part of my study, part of what I was really diving into was on positive, lasting behavior change. And really, the big shift for me came was in this big recognition of how people actually change effectively. And so much of the fitness paradigm is prescriptive, right, we're telling people what to do, when in actuality, a lasting behavior change comes from having an internal shift on your behavior. And that's where really the coaching paradigm can took over my practice. And of course, the other big lens shift was in the fitness space, I was trained that a lot of times you're looking for during the console like, okay, what are they doing wrong? What's their movement? And where are their faults in their movement patterns? Where are they like messing up and their nutrition. And that was the lever that you tried to angle right to sell your package. And that really was the paradigm I was trained in as a trainer. Whereas in a positive psychology lens, you're not looking at what's wrong with people, you're looking for what's right with people, and then how do we use that to help you get to where you want to go. And it was really this shift to focus on. I'm not going to tell my client in the console everything they're doing wrong anymore. I'm going to praise their positives. I'm going to Look for their strength, their resilience and their calling and purpose, which then gives them a reason to change from a positive lens. And so those are probably the biggest paradigm shifts that led me out of only working as a trainer and a fitness professional context. And now doing this much more holistic, hybrid kind of everything, everything in the kitchen sink except for career.
Philip Pape 05:26
Yeah, it makes a lot of sense. I mean, at least it makes sense to me. But I do want to dig in a little bit. You said, you evolved from the training, which I never did training, like I came from the corporate world. I was a manager, a coach, people leader, I think a lot of those aspects resonate, like what you say resonates with me is like why people do what they do. And understanding that first is helpful. You went from a trainer to this other paradigm. I mean, was there a particular client that really helped you make that transition was it just bit by bit over time it happened? Well,
Darlene Marshall 05:57
even when I came into grad school, I was coming in having already gotten certifications in nutrition, sleep, yoga, meditation, mindfulness, NLP, motivational interviewing, like, pick your thing, I had the piece of paper, it was just missing the the positive psychology piece. And the clients I was working with at the time, I graduated in 2020. So I was finishing grad school in lockdown writing my master's thesis in lockdown, and all of my clients have gone remote. And obviously, we were all under this big pressure cooker of of a massive, not self imposed change. And a lot of the conversations we were having at the time were on resilience behaviors and burnout. And And so really, that suite of clients was a lot of the pivot for how do we build sustainable resilience that isn't a buzzword, but it actually is fostering the person that, you know, a decade from now, when you look back on this time, who do you want to have been? How can you create that person with intentionality? And really, that was a lot of the incubator for what I'm doing now.
Philip Pape 07:08
So isn't it amazing how the pandemic cause that for many of us and working from home, you started to have all this special training and special interventions and like, at risk and high risk for retention, at least again, from the corporate world, it's sounds very similar, where you started to focus on the individual well being but it was kind of given lip service in many contexts, or, you know, it's kind of this forced training. Yeah. And what you're saying is right, that, you know, we don't want it to be buzzword, you you dive down and really understood that. That's awesome. As a as a coach, and we can get into that what a coach is, because I know that's a whole thing. It's like, I know what you mean, when you're working with clients. And like, they asked you a question, I'm not going to find the answer in this book over here about nutrition, you know, there's this deeper thing going on that they need help with. So just just one more level deep on the field of applied positive psychology. The words are obvious, right, linguistically applied, something that you do versus theory and then positive as opposed to negative. Right. Sounds great. How does it differ from traditional psychology? And why should we care about that distinction?
Darlene Marshall 08:11
Yeah, so traditional psychology really focused on what's wrong with people, right. And in no fault to you know, the great grand Pooh Bahs of psychology, it really was because, you know, when you're looking at scientific disciplines, you got the hard sciences of things like chemistry, physics, mathematics. And so those early psychological practitioners wanted to be taken seriously. And at that time in that milieu, you know, we're talking mostly about European educated, affluent men, you weren't going to be taken seriously talking about love. Right? You were going to be taken seriously saying, we're going to solve the problems of the mind using a Western medical model, which was identify disease and correct it. And that's really traditional psychology. Yeah.
Philip Pape 08:57
I'm laughing because I'm just thinking like, just the classic man woman paradigm. You know, what I'm saying, like, my wife knows, I always try to fix problems and you know, and try to be more empathetic and not do that anyway, keep going. Well, and,
Darlene Marshall 09:13
and I'm not throwing shade at that, like, that's a well intentioned for any scientist, regardless of discipline that you identify a problem. You develop a hypothesis, you run experiments. But But where we ended up by the mid 20th century was okay, maybe we've got some, like, decent treatments for, you know, schizophrenia, bipolar disorder, right, the dysfunctions in the mind. But I know this was my experience with therapy in my 20s. Okay, the absence of all of the bad stuff, I've mapped all the trauma, I've done all the cognitive behavioral therapy techniques, I can get myself to neutral gear, the absence of the bad stuffs not the same as the presence of the good stuff. So we took out all The stuff now the buckets empty. What do we put in the bucket? Positive Psychology is the focus on all the things that are good with people. So I don't refer to it as the science of happiness I refer to as the science of well being human well being. Because there's so much more to a well, well lived life. That's the phrase we're trying to get out there, there's so much more to a well lived life, then, soft Cody's here happiness, because happiness is a state just like sadness is a state, and happiness can come and go but purpose meaning calling love, you know, the ability to build a sustainable lifestyle that then supports me in actualizing on my purpose is so much richer. And that's really what positive psychology is about, when Martin Seligman who was considered to be the founder of the field, but he's not the only one. They all are affluent white guys, and also, to their credit have recognized the gap that that creates, and so we're trying to do better as a field. But Seligman, when UPenn, offered to start a positive psychology program, he insisted that it had to be an applied program, because you don't build wellbeing by thinking about it. And I always use the metaphor of the gym, you don't get stronger by thinking about lifting, you got to pick up the heavy stuff. You don't build wellbeing by thinking about, Oh, these are all the things I should be grateful for an effective gratitude practice, you're actually taking the time to pull up the emotional experience. And so just writing your three gratitude things is an exercise an obligation, not in cultivating an emotional state. So you have to do it for it to work. And that's where the applied piece really comes in. That's,
Philip Pape 11:40
that's great. So it's like the when we talk about holistic wellness, it sounds like positive psychology fits into the pie of psychology to give you holistic psychology, I guess, right, which is a piece of wellness. I mean, where does it? Where does it fit into wellness? Overall, if you were to make that into a big diagram or something?
Darlene Marshall 11:58
Yeah, it depends whose model we use. So my show is produced by NASM, the National Academy of Sports Medicine, I was one of the authors on their wellness coaching certification, and I'm very proud of it. They define it as mental physical and emotional betterment of life, as wellness as a whole. And then the tools of that being movement, nutrition, sleep, recovery, and regeneration and mental and emotional well being. I if we're going to make the pie metaphor, I would say positive psychology is the pan. If we include embodiment, as part of the modality and positive psychology obviously, I'm a body person. That's primarily how it works people. Positive psychology for a long time focused only on the mental experience. And fortunately, one of the evolutions in the space has been to include the fact that like, hey, we have a body and how you take care of it is going to directly impact state, and more and more we're seeing that play out in the world. So I'm grateful to see it all evolve.
Philip Pape 12:58
Yeah, we're not a disembodied brain. That actually sounds like a nightmare. But yes, not all of us. Yeah, that's funny, because that again resonates like the language I sometimes use was is this physical self mastery how like to exist and function in the world. It is a physical world. So I wouldn't everything integrate with that in some way even mentally, right. So all right, because sometimes people think of holistic in the fufu set sense of it, right? annotation, mindfulness, right, we will. For others, it's maybe the more definition, the literal definition of whole right, everything integrated approach. So I guess okay, I guess we talked about holistic wellness. So you mentioned actualization before. So we talked about the mind and positive psychology and applying all of these practices, and then actualization becoming more of I guess your aligned self is the way you've put it? Where do we go from there? So where do we take where do we take it and actually put it into practice? So well, I want
Darlene Marshall 13:55
to circle back to the UI Sure, go for it. Because I do think that that's an important piece. And where I settle on that, especially with a client is around belief. You don't have to believe what I believe in order for us to have a meaningful conversation around belief. But that's going to be an important mechanism when it comes to building your lifestyle. Because your value system your meaning making is all going to come out of however you think all this works. And you know, you mentioned like yoga and meditation is kind of like a woowoo thing. But when we look at even the mechanisms of the nervous system, and what something like meditation is doing in the nervous system, you don't have to believe in a higher power for that school skill set to be true. So there's Fortunately all of these layers that we're getting to examine now because we have the technology to look at things that 50 years ago, we're being poo pooed as nonsense. So it just it's a very exciting time to be a practitioner in the space. And then you could ask me another question that I honestly don't remember where you're
Philip Pape 14:59
from. Yeah, I wanted to get into like emergent actualization and upward spiraling you want to we can jump into that. So because what you, I had never heard that term before upward spiraling, right, yeah. Which is, again, linguistically the opposite of downward spiraling. It's these positive feedback loops, right? To reinforce things reinforced while being create momentum, build your resources and so on. So explain the concept. How will they help us be more resilient, perform better? And do it
Darlene Marshall 15:28
and how we can do care? Yeah, are you care and I love to just point out the differences between this and like, some of the woowoo like wellness nonsense, and I, I was allergic to the word wellness, I had no desire to be a wellness practitioner, when NASM approached me about contributing to their wellness coaching certification. It's essentially like, Hey, we're building the thing that you always wanted to exist, do you want to be a part of it? Oh, hey, you just have to Swallow this pill. And I was like, Okay, fine, Apollo wellness. But when we talk about upward spiraling, we're talking about integration, we're talking about actualization, we are talking about measurable effects in the human experience. And so upward spiral specifically, or when you take two or more phenomenon in someone's life, two or more interventions, or practices, whatever you want to call them. And they create a positive feedback loop that is building, whether we call it capacity, we call it resilience, you know, there's all these different ways that we can measure it. But we'll take for example, you know, a meditation practice, like a mindfulness practice and a positive emotional priming practice. So this would be something like you're doing morning meditation, and you're doing evening gratitude. And because of the morning meditation is increasing your mindfulness and the gratitude is affecting your default mode network construct in the brain, you start sleeping better, and your mood is improving. And now because you're sleeping better, and you're moving, improving, it's easier to meditate longer, your gratitude practices getting richer, so you're sleeping better your movies improving you feeling so much better, your relationships improve, now you're communicating better, because you have more self awareness. And, and, and, and there's, there's, you know, a doe today, I want to say there's two dozen documented upward spirals. But there's many theorize that we just haven't gotten the funding of the research to go out and measure yet yet being the operant. Where my work comes in what I wrote my master's thesis on was the way in which these upward spirals which have been measured in the short term, integrate with one another and creating compounding positive effects toward sustainable lifestyle change. Right? What does lifestyle transformation actually look like? And what I found in my work was when we take something like Maslow's peak experiences, right, these are your big touchstones, the birth of a child standing at the edge of the Grand Canyon and experiencing your own smallness. Going to space, right, the Overwatch effects is one of my favorite things. Resources is what happens to an astronaut go into space for the first time. And they have this profound feeling of awe and wholeness and oneness with all of humanity. And then they end up coming back and like starting nonprofits and doing doing like completely divergent work from where they were before, because of that profound tilt, transcendent experience. And when I talk about actualization when I talk about wellness for integration, and I'm talking about is the way in which our wellness practices or self development practices, leadership development, whatever work we're doing within ourselves is really looking for what's the next lesson, what's the next important skill set that I'm going to integrate into my lifestyle in a sustainable way, so that I can serve my purpose, my calling, whatever that is right now, and also recognize that I'm continuing to grow as a person. So oftentimes, when I have conversations that actualization people think it's like one thing, and it's never going to be one thing, because you are in an emergent experience of your life. And as that horizon continues to grow back, you're gonna have new and exciting experiences of actualization if you allow yourself to keep growing in that way. Okay, so that's the big kitten caboodle.
Philip Pape 19:25
Oh, no, you played it really well, because I've heard it talked about once or twice and, and kind of understood where you're going. But I always like to get very concrete for people, especially, you know, selfishly, how can I use this to help people in my practice as well. And I remember taking, actually a friend of mine, her name is Stephanie Caputo, and she and her husband have a company they, they do, there's something called navigating life and it had these three spider they call them spirals and they were overlapping and one was relationship. One was physical, and then one was another and I can't remember what it's the same concept of, you're not gonna you're not gonna improve everything at once and it's not a switch right? and pick the things that are, maybe you have strengths and pick the things that are the big go gets maybe and kind of work on those. And then as they improve, the other ones get brought up. So you mentioned 12, or you said two dozen, there's two dozen these, like there's actual things that are upward spirals, like. So give me an example of one specific one.
Darlene Marshall 20:19
So mood and self directed physical activity. So especially if you do it with other people, so choosing a physical activity that you enjoy, we know that within the next 24 hours, you're more likely to say good things happened. And you'll say more good things happened in 24 hours after you engage in some kind of physical activity. Well, because of that, like literal increased sensitivity to positive experience, we can now measure it when the initial tests, when the initial research were done on that effect, we couldn't measure it yet. Now we can measure that physical activity makes you more sensitive to your own serotonin through the endocannabinoid system. So okay, you're more sensitive to your own serotonin, you fill up my new friend or being nice to me, I'm gonna have a mood boost. Now because I'm in a better mood, I'm more likely to repeat it again tomorrow. Now I continue that positive effects of being like high on my own serotonin supply. That's an upward spiral dynamic, right? Because I'm in a better mood, I'm going to be looking for more opportunities to continue to grow and improve. There's upward spirals between meditation, mindfulness and relationships. They're, you know, I'm trying to pop them off the top of my head, I didn't have them ready. And to fall, I'm just thinking of like, okay, what are the upward spirals? I know, it's probably about two dozen. But that number might be wrong. I don't want to I don't want anybody to go hunt and be like she said, it was two dozen. And it's only 18. Like, yeah, no,
Philip Pape 21:53
I didn't mean that. What was interesting was that it was these concrete lists that we were starting to compile, which then of course, my brain goes to Okay, now, let me see that list. And then we can sort of work on on the checklist of things. Let
Darlene Marshall 22:06
me plug a few things in for you. The books are Barbara Fredrickson is the world's leading researcher on positive emotional experience. The the broaden and build theory of positive emotion is the foundational work that then put upward spirals grew out of her books are positive. Thing is positivity, wholeness. Yep. So positivity, and love 2.0. My master's thesis was on all of the stuff I'm talking about. So if you literally just search like UPenn, positive psychology, Darlene Marshall Capstone, it'll come up and download it and go nerd out super hard, along with all theories about how this stuff works,
Philip Pape 22:45
I'll tell you, your stuff is going to be in my stuff before long because this is this is this is really connected with me. And I think a lot of people listening to like, Oh, this is a big missing piece. And it's not that we don't do this, to some extent, not know what to call it, right? There is some of that, like, I see all the time with clients where one thing leads to another and all of a sudden, just everything in their life is a win, because these other things are now no longer giving them the stress or holding them back. And it's it's it's incredible to watch, right. But to be able to actually induce that, right. That's, that's where the power comes in. So yeah,
Darlene Marshall 23:19
that's what that work is about. And I'll just throw this out there. So the three things I start every client with in order to prime and I'm happy to unpack the science underneath each of these practices. In order to prime the effect is some kind of appreciation or gratitude practice every day, 20 minutes of moderate intensity cardiovascular exercise to increase their sensitivity to their own serotonin. And after I up regulate their brain derived neurotrophic factor, and a mindfulness practice some kind of meditation. So what I'm trying to prime there is not only their malleability to change, but also the positive emotional priming, because we know that someone in a positive emotional experience is more open to new information. They have neuro more neuro flexibility, they have greater self regulation, they're more likely to explore, they're more curious. Like there's all of these things that happen when someone's in a positive emotional state. Not that challenging. emotional states aren't useful, and they can be. But positive emotional states have a different effect in the brain and the nervous system that lend themselves toward the self work. So by getting clients to start with that flexibility, everything else that we want to come next, they're leveraged into the upward spiral effect.
Philip Pape 24:30
And are those three habits that you gradually build in the first few weeks? Is that the idea or do these are three things you do every day? Right off the bat?
Darlene Marshall 24:37
Most clients, this is the one place that I tend to be prescriptive, most clients if they're not already doing them, that's the firt that's a prescription that comes right out of the console like okay, you're going to work with me, I want you to do these things between now and our next meeting, so that they're more flexible.
Philip Pape 24:52
And here's just a little thought that popped in my head right. You know, we like to say people have personalities and some people are were positive and others optimistic than others. And, again, I will use that labeling myself and like feel like I've always been a positive, optimistic person who just brushes off things. And yet, when I look back at I know, it's because of my environment, there's the social psychology aspect to it. The opportunities I was given as a child, my family and so on. What do you think of that concept? And where I'm going with this is, is it? It's gotta be easier for some people to do this. Right? When you start with them, potentially? And how does that play into it? Or do we just is it pretty much the same? Same approach, no matter who you are, it just might be easier for some people.
Darlene Marshall 25:34
How technical you, I
Philip Pape 25:37
love tech, I love tech, the listener stays tuned. I'll see my apple sense later.
Darlene Marshall 25:42
So we're getting theoretical a little bit. We know that we all have a certain bandwidth of wellbeing and disposition towards, you know, thriving, right? Some people aren't yours. Some people are piglets, and some people are everywhere in between. optimism and pessimism, we think in the positive psychology space or not. personality traits are what we call explanatory style. It's the lens that you are looking through on the things that happen to you. So pessimists in that context, are looked at as when something goes wrong, is it they view it as permanent, pervasive and personal. So this sucks, it's always gonna suck. It's because everything sucks, and it's because I suck. Whereas the optimistic explanatory style looks at it like, Okay, this sucks, but not everything sucks. It won't always suck and stuff happens to people. It's not anything wrong with me. And so think about optimism pessimism in the positive psychology space, it's less about like that bandwidth I'm talking about that we all kind of have. Now on the upward spiral side, when we're talking like you said, some people this stuff is easier for it's more accessible. The theory is that the way that upward spirals work, is, you have something called Vantage sensitivity, how much sensitivity Do you have that you can take advantage when the good stuff happens? Right? The same thing happens to the piglet and er, er is going oh, and piglets like whatever. Right? So your vantage sensitivity is directly related to something called Vantage resources. Do you have the mindset, the emotional social support your foundational needs met all of the factors that go into a lifestyle that support you to take that what we call a capitalization opportunity, can you take advantage of the good thing emotionally and come in neuro chemically? Now, like you said, we don't necessarily know why some people are more of a piglet than an ER. But we also know that if we teach the ER certain skills, give them access to whether we're talking about relationships, support or community organizations, you know, psychological skills, reframing techniques, get them moving their bodies, you know, there's all these things that we can do for the ER, that increases their vantage sensitivity. Now, do they end up in the same place as piglet? Not all of us, but expecting them to is also toxically? Positive? And really from my lens as a coach, it's what is what is er want for me? Or if yours okay with who they are? I don't force it onto them like a moral obligation. But if they want my help, I'm here to do it. Fair
Philip Pape 28:34
enough. Yeah, right. That relative change? You're right. Yeah, this is great. This is good stuff. I think this is awesome. Definitely. Wow. Okay. I'm taking a ton of notes, because this is this is. This is I'm down. So you talked about the habit priming. And I don't know if we already addressed this. But you said you talked about Barbara Fredrickson, I think you mentioned the FR. Fr. fMRI studies on one of your other shows how that show how the positive emotions affect the body differently than negative emotions, right? Neurological flexibility, broaden and build. So how does that pathway work and contribute toward the upward spiral?
Darlene Marshall 29:06
Yeah, so there's actually the foundation for upward spirals. And so the deal if we take it to from an evolutionary psychology approach, we all have something called negativity bias. And it's because our ancestors were the ones who when a threat presented itself, they were looking out for that threat, and then they never forgot it. And the ones who are kind of like, oh, whatever, weren't likely to survive and reproduce, because they were more likely to be susceptible to repeated threat. So from an evolutionary psychology standpoint, that negativity bias, we're more likely to think about all the negative stuff but negative emotions narrow our focus, right. And that's, that is also an evolutionary benefit. Right? The Tiger comes over the hill and we all have to be ready to respond. The problem Because now we're not living in that world, because that kind of challenging emotional response is very intensively stressful to the nervous system and therefore the entire body, right your autonomic nervous system, your vagus nerve, it is enervating all of your autonomic nervous system function. So everything automatic that we don't have control of so blood sugar and hormones and heart rate. And I think blood pressure, I didn't say that one yet. It kind of everything else in between. And so that upregulated stress condition is not that great for us. It narrows our focus, we're looking for threats, the flip side of that positive emotional experience, our pupils constrict, so that we are not so alert to threat, our blood pressure comes down, resting heart rate relaxes, you know, there's all of these physiological changes. But on the psych side, you have less subconscious biases, you're more curious, you're more creative, you're better problem solver, you're more likely to explore your environment, it's easier to make friends, it's easier to learn new material, because in times of calm, that's when we would be bonding, that's when we would be exploring, that's when you would be learning new skills, you're not going to learn new skills with the tire coming over the hill. But we're going to you know, you're going to teach me cool stuff, when we're all just hanging out. And so that also has a significant reparative function to the nervous system and the tissues of the body. Because now all of those baseline processes that happen when you're in your parasympathetic, your calm state of your nervous system are kicking in when you feel the positive emotional experiences. So that is the broaden right? I'm broadening my cognition build is learning skills and resources. Broaden and build theory is the foundation for upward spiraling.
Philip Pape 31:53
Okay. Love it. Yeah. So that, and that was a spiraling effect you just talked about with the positive experiences causing you relax, making you more creative and one thing leads to another.
32:04
Shout out to Philippe an awfully for a long time and know how passionate he is about healthy eating, and body strength. And that's why choosing to be my coach. I was no stranger to a dieting and body training. But I've always struggled to do it sustainably really helped me prioritize my goals with evidence based recommendations, or not over stressing my body and not feeling like I'm starving. In six months, I lost 45 pounds without drastically changing the foods I enjoy. But now I have a more balanced diet. I weight train consistently. But most importantly, I do it sustainably if a scientifically sound healthy diet links from body is what you're looking for. Really paid Easter guy
Philip Pape 32:48
to be a little negative here. What if you take somebody who's on the opposite extreme, who's really struggling with a lot of things and very negative about themselves and making excuses things are holding themselves back. And there's reasons for these right in people's lives. Usually they might be overwhelmed. They're busy with life, they family, kids career, whatever. Or they've tried a lot of things that and they think they're they're applying themselves over the years. And then those things don't work, right, which is just reinforces this. So where would you start that conversation or the process to move them toward that actualization, I guess is the word.
Darlene Marshall 33:21
Yeah. So the first thing I always like to throw out in a conversation like that is the recognition that a coach, a positive psychology practitioner, a personal trainer, we are not clinicians. And very often when we are working with someone in a state like that, they may have untreated mental health considerations. And making sure and I am very direct with my clients about scope of practice. And the recognition that one, if we bump up the edge of the scope, and I'm worried about you, I'm going to tell you that you need to go to therapy or or I'm not going to continue working with you. Or they're already working with a therapist, and I make sure the therapist knows that I exist. And I respect them and all that. And so there's that piece of so often, the struggle bus and the overwork and the hyper productivity is reactive to some kind of unprocessed trauma or mental health consideration. Right? Why? Why would we want to create a life that burns us out? Right? So it starts there from my perspective. Now, if you've got somebody who's already working with a therapist, and then we enter that conversation, and they're on the struggle bus, and they feel overwhelmed, and they feel overstimulated and it in it in it in it always comes back to what is it that matters most to you, my client? What is your purpose, meaning calling? Why are you here? Why work with me now? And if they can give me that information, I can help them make better choices about who they want to be when they grow up, because they're working with me for a reason.
Philip Pape 35:00
Ain't they reached out to you? They took that step. Yes. Right. So
Darlene Marshall 35:02
they want change, there has to be some vision of something else they want, or they would not have reached out. Or if they reach out and there's nothing there, they wouldn't have gotten past the console. So they're going to be feeding me. What is it that you're here to do? What is it that you want for you? What is the example you want to set for your kids? What is the change you're trying to make in the world? What is your leadership, your mission? And anything else? To me, all of the lifestyle stuff is in service of that for it not to you know, just be narcissism.
Philip Pape 35:36
Fair enough. Okay. So then where did he so then we're talking a little bit also about ideas like agency empowerment, right, taking control of your life and so on, where do these concepts comport with those? Which are the opposite of codependence right? And I know we're talking we talked about coaching and training and all that we don't want that we don't want to codependent relationship, what what you're talking about here? So maybe explore that a little bit. Darlene? Yeah, sure. I
Darlene Marshall 36:01
think you know, what you're talking about is the difference in codependence and interdependence, right. And I'm a strong believer that in effective lifestyle practitioner should not be trying to like Bootstrap some codependence in the client, which is not what I was taught as a trainer I was taught, it's always easier to keep a client than get a client. And so you try to keep the clients forever. And the people who stay with clients forever are the most effective people. And really, I'm like, if after three years of working with me, you can't work out on your own, I am not good at my job. Yep. Because my job is to empower you with information. Now, if we find that that same person just knows that this is the right thing to do, and they cannot find truly authentic internal motivation. Okay, then let's create accountability structures. And that's different than I'm trying to trick you into renewal, which is, again, what I was taught as a trainer. And the reason is that if I'm truly helping someone, like walk the path to their authentic self actualize on their purpose and meaning and calling, they won't need me after a certain point, because they'll have learned everything that they were meant to learn. And then they're gonna go, you know, with whatever their belief system is. And if not, there's some other resistance there. And I just wasn't like the magic practitioner. And that's okay. Right. Not everything works for everyone all the time is one of the most important things I've tried to put out there. If any practitioner tells you they have the perfect answer, just do my do my five point system, system and reset system run, because not everything works for everyone all the time. And no, one practitioner has all of the answers for everyone. And if they think they do, they're actually just a narcissist.
Philip Pape 37:52
Yes. And and did that happen? So can you recall a time where that happened to you? Where perhaps at the end of it all, you realize that you couldn't be the magic practitioner? And yeah, maybe learn from it? And oh, yeah, of course. Of course. Yep.
Darlene Marshall 38:06
Of course. I mean, it's happened. How I don't know how many?
Philip Pape 38:12
Oh, god. No, no, no, I guess you learn something from working with every client?
Darlene Marshall 38:16
Oh, sure. Yeah, but specifically, the failures like, you know, if you've, if you've got a big coaching audience, I'm happy to talk about accepting and learning from and then moving on from the failures. And, you know, I, I know a thing or three about helping people. And there have unquestionably been clients that I sit down with my notebook, and I look back at and I go, Okay, what did I get wrong? And without the sense of ownership, that it was my, you know, it's my work, it's their work. But maybe it's the recognition that you know, what, I should never have accepted that renewal. I knew that we were on the wrong path. They asked to stay and I let them stay. And I never should have accepted that renewal. I should have heard them out. Or I knew six months before that, that I didn't want to be doing that kind of work anymore. And I you know, it was the pandemic and I wasn't worried. Yeah, no. And so I did it, but I wasn't aligned. And every time there has been a part of me that knew that we were not, we weren't it. But I kept pushing, because I tried to convince myself and I think one of the big lessons for me and one of the big lessons for every client is that there is a voice inside of you that you know, is your authentic voice. There are things about yourself that you know to be true, if you are honest with yourself. And when that voice says you shouldn't be doing this anymore. Listen to it. It's not a failure is just the next step.
Philip Pape 39:50
Yeah, and I think that even applies to the other side, right? If you're listening and thinking I'm working with someone and you your job to interview them right and hold them accountable to it. You want and make sure you ask them the questions that that set would set off any red flags for you. And if don't try to force the coach into doing what maybe isn't their thing for you. And vice versa, right? That's yeah, that's makes me as well, because I definitely can think of some clients that I should never have taken on. You know, when you're like, well, they're super eager. So we'll work it out. Cool. So a couple other other topics I want to dive into. What are your thoughts about the fake it till you make it phenomenon? Right, the idea of, I guess, manufacturing confidence to push through an obstacle come out the other side, and then incrementally build your natural confidence.
Darlene Marshall 40:41
Oh, you know, it's funny, I thought when you were saying fake it till you make it that you were referencing something else?
Philip Pape 40:46
That's okay. That's okay. So yeah, well, I
Darlene Marshall 40:50
just, you know, there's there's a lot of people out on the interwebs, who use the word coach that aren't paying this coaches, let's get into that qualify. Yeah, we can play this game. Which direction?
Philip Pape 41:03
Yeah, well, just just, let's just be real about it. Right. So the word coach has a definition. Let's define that. Let's define what not what is not a coach. But also the idea that people who are not coaches, let's make them aware of that, and how they can become better coaches in the context of what you're talking about here. So that's a positive way to approach it. Yeah, let's
Darlene Marshall 41:24
look at so you know, let's recognize there's two uses of the word coach, right. There's like, my nephew's basketball team. And his coach, that's a coach, great, there's coaches and all levels of sport. And the rest of us out here using the word coach are talking about individuals who are educated in the skill set of holding space, asking good questions, making an informative, you know, paradigm with their clients, or giving them good information, and then empowering the client to make good decisions for their own progress towards their own self directed goals. A coach is not being prescriptive, right, a coach will give information, and then they get out of the way. They might give guidance, they might give a particular shape. But that's what coaching really is, you know, working through ambivalence working through resistance, helping people get unstuck, but not by saying, this is exactly what you do, right? That prescriptive model. If that's not what you're doing, you're not coaching, and no shade on other modalities of change. But that's not coaching. It's something else. And so I mentioned, I come from the fitness industry, like personal training is not coaching, and even working within the corporate setting I was in, you'd get to a certain level, and they'd start calling you a coach, because they want to charge more money for your work, but you're still making a prescription with everything you're doing. You're you're telling them what to do. So it wasn't coaching, it was training. And I see a lot of trainers out in the world who you get a certain amount of certifications, and you want to distinguish yourself from other newer trainers. And so you start using the label coach, the problem is it creates a ton of confusion in the market, people end up not understanding the difference. And then they pay for something thinking they're gonna get one thing and they get the other and then they're upset. And so I I have fallen into this pit, I have clients, I have referred to someone because I thought they were coaching and then they turned it out making prescriptions. And that's not what I wanted for that client, and ended it in. And so it is a pet peeve of mine, I'll own but I'm attached to it. Just it just grinds my gears.
Philip Pape 43:52
Yeah, no, let's No, let's play devil's advocate, because earlier you mentioned you there is something you prescribe and that is those three habits. And then less than two weeks. Yeah, yeah, no, and that's okay. But that's context. And there's also my interpretation of what you're saying a little bit is, is meeting the individual and understanding what they want. They're asking for something, then then you can guide them. But you do have to give them information and giving information. So for example, if if someone very simply just wants a nutrition plan, right, not not a meal plan, but just they want to understand how do I go from here to here? Lose Fat, right? Just a very simple practical thing. And you have to give him that calorie deficit to do that. So is providing guidelines for how to do that and targets prescriptive and not coaching even though you're coaching them on how to stick to that and how to do all the things to get there.
Darlene Marshall 44:45
In my opinion, yes, because it as somebody who's been a nutrition coach for 10 years. Additive nutrition coaching is not a prescriptive protocol, but There are also times that someone's working toward an outcome that requires a prescriptive protocol. Right, I got friends who are competitive fighters and bodybuilders and rugby players, and you know, you got to make weight. So if you got to make weight, you need a prescription. That's when you need a really effective expert practitioner, who is a trainer or nutritionist specialized in those ways. But that's not coaching a process that's prescribing a paradigm. And again, I'm not demonizing doing that. I'm just saying like, can we use the word for the thing? We mean?
Philip Pape 45:33
Yeah, I'm trying to understand where there's like a hybrid in there, which kind of seems like there's a, you know, are you doing
Darlene Marshall 45:39
out there? Right? Yeah, I do do both. Many of my clients are hybrid clients, where I'm like, Okay, we got two hats here. And you when do we get to your movement, if what you want is prescriptive movement protocol, because, you know, your movement screening is showing significant dysfunction. I used to do these, and they, but they consent to it. Right? I am transparent with them about the difference between coaching and training. And when they say, Yeah, that would be amazing. Could you train me, and then I'm writing their exercise protocol. So that we get that specific outcome, that's when prescriptive is appropriate. But it's also not coaching. That's a hybrid coach trainer model. And that is how I run my business.
Philip Pape 46:19
Love that. Yeah. And you made me think about a book that I wish I could remember the name of it, it's about asking for feedback. I don't know if you've heard this book before. And it distinguishes the, like three types of feedback that you want from someone that the important, the important thing is do you need to ask for the feedback you want, don't rely on somebody else to guess it what you need. And coach coaching is one of those. And but there were like two other types. And it kind of sounds like a similar categorization as you're giving me here. It's interesting. Yeah, I was reflecting on that ever since Carl brought it up as well, that I know some of my clients where we have a prescription for, say, macros, but then they they learn the process and can do it themselves. After a while we don't even talk about it anymore. And I'm like, that's, that's an interesting, you know, it's kind of like one shifting into another. And then meanwhile, all these other things, having nothing to do with the prescription seems to be where people get hung up the behavioral stuff, the change the whatever, you know, so it's just, it's fascinating philosophically. Yeah.
Darlene Marshall 47:18
And yeah, like, I think you're leading into what I want to say is like, this is my opinion, right? Like, it's, it's all made up by people anyway, right? We're just we're making up words and slapping them on the stuff. It's all a construct that we invented, and we get to evolve and change. And my argument is just like, hey, wouldn't it be better if we were being specific about the thing that we say we're doing and like, not just everybody is suddenly a coach, even though you have no education in facilitating meaningful behavior change. And the flip of that is coming from the fitness space, a lot of fitness industry, education and behavior change is just outdated and wrong. And so then you're working off of paradigms that aren't effective, calling yourself a coach. So that's that's my argument.
Philip Pape 48:05
No, I love it. And there's a transparency element and there's a you know, the trying to make money off of these things and these labels and certs and Pathak, you know, credentials you have behind your name. And it's not like we could all just stop people from being hucksters. That's like humanity's always kind of been like that. But those of us who want to do better and learn and hopefully you're listening to this podcast into your stuff, can at least start to describe it more precisely. And as we have our sales calls, or our discovery calls or talk on our podcast, it's like, make a distinction between those. So I will be doing more now after learning this from you. So there you go. He made an impact. Okay, so what else do we want to cover? Oh, your podcast, your podcast, I like the premise right of of examining ancient traditions and modern science. And it kind of strikes me as it's like the parallels between evidence based science and anecdotal experience or common sense. Like what you discussed, I think, on your episode, and additive nutrition was what I was referring to, how do you balance those perspectives? So separating like the fringe ideas of from ancient traditions, and maybe I'm using the word fringe in a loaded way that might actually work things that work but aren't really considered evidence based? Because they're rooted in ancient traditions? Yeah, well, I
Darlene Marshall 49:25
think, you know, first off, like, let's just layer on, there's so much appropriation in the wellness space, right, like, there's a lot and as a middle aged white woman, I gotta own, you know, respect for whatever culture or lineage we might be using as inspiration or influence in a particular practice. Obviously, alignment yoga, it's an ion guard derivative, you know, that is a big base of my entry into these alternative ways of thinking that we're now just really starting to measure and understand and more and more nuanced ways. And meditation is such a perfect example, where within our lifetime and making some assumptions about your age, within our lifetime, it's really gone from this like esoteric, woowoo thing to totally mainstream with a ton of research. And we can we can thank the Dalai Lama. And we can thank Jon Kabat Zinn, and you know, all of the hippies for having brought those practices back, and then we examine them. And so a lot of times, what I'm trying to do is really look at, well, what is this thing that we think of as kind of Woo? Where is the science underneath the thing that most people think of as kind of Wuhan upward spirals is a perfect example. It sounds really hippie dippie. And in actuality, it's a measurable effects. And in terms of, you know, like the additive nutrition thing, really, that comes out of the recognition that people get a lot more nutritional traction, they make more progress longer and sustain it longer. I said that all in the wrong order. When you focus more on putting in the good stuff, instead of removing all the things that have been demonized, and it's really that simple. And so when I first start the nutrition conversation with my clients, I don't give them a list of all the foods they're going to avoid that is useless. And their next birthday party or the weekend, heck, I got a client right now who the her doctor gave her a single printout sheet of her new diet, and no support in actualizing on it. And she said to me, she's like, I'm not starting this till Monday. Sunday is Mother's Day, and my birthday is this week, like, why would I do this? I'm like, great. Can I just get you to eat more protein, please? Yeah.
Philip Pape 51:45
Oh, yeah.
Darlene Marshall 51:48
So specifically, from the additive nutrition piece, it's just how do we apply what we know about behavior change and the human experience. And what we know is that people are not getting enough of the right things in the right ways. Yet, we're all just talking about how evil sugar is all the time. And the more you demonize like it's the pink elephant thing, right? When I was trying to quit smoking, and I just kept thinking about how badly I wanted a cigarette, that was totally different than when I filled my life up with enough positive things that I no longer needed the stress relief of the cigarette, right? This is going back 15 years,
Philip Pape 52:23
ya know, for sure. And there's there's a parallel there between positive versus negative or positive or traditional psychology as well. And I'm seeing these constant themes of focusing on the positive, whatever we mean by that. And the idea and I use that same analogy with the protein of when you just when you try to get enough protein, it starts to crowd other things out, you just can't help it right. And when you go to the grocery store and look for protein, you end up being on the outside of the store, because that's where all the protein is, you know, so I hear what you're saying. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, no, dig, I dig it, too. It's pretty cool. And the fringe i The these, what we think are fringe ideas or hippie dippie, or whatever, when you could actually validate them with science and show how they work. There was a guy on my podcast, it hasn't come out yet. What's his name? Christopher. I can't forget his last name. But he taught he basically is Eastern medicine, traditional medicine and like meridians and some of that, and I have my skepticism meter. So hi. Let's talk about it. I was even asked about it. But ya know, and the way he described I'm thinking, well, there's something there with the nervous system and, and muscles and everything else. Lines. Yeah, and go Yeah, exactly. Like does so
Darlene Marshall 53:31
many of the main meridians track with what we now understand to the fossil lungs. And in 2018, Dr. Neil Thiess, published his research showing that fascia is actually an Oregon and the interstitium. And so the, you know, along the interstitium, things like vibration and sound and light travel further than other connective tissue structures, called the physics of it, okay, right. So we're just starting to measure what the intersted GM can do in a way that allopathic medicine, Western medicine can quantify. And part of what made makes northeast brilliant as a practitioner, his book notes on complexity comes out this week is he's also a Zen Buddhist, in addition to being one of the world's leading liver pathologist. And so he's bringing that influence into trying to show Western medicine that there's a much bigger scope than we are necessarily taking into account. But like the meridian lines, follow interstitium main, like main lines, and I guarantee you in our lifetime, we're going to have better ways to measure what that's really on about. And I could go on and on about like prana versus chi versus your mitochondria. And essentially this idea that these these traditions that are so much older than In Western paradigms, were using their vernaculars to try to explain something that they could observe. But they didn't yet have the technology to measure. And add to that our most advanced physicists understand that we can measure about 5% of the phenomena in the universe. Right?
Philip Pape 55:24
That's where it's good. That's what that's true. We know very little so right? Yeah.
Darlene Marshall 55:28
If we can only measure 5% of the observable universe as we experience it, there's all kinds of stuff that we don't know. And what I do when it comes to application with my clients, the placebo effect is still in effect. I don't care if that's placebo, I care. Did it make you more better? And did it move you towards the thing that you wanted to work? Yeah, who cares? If it's placebo?
Philip Pape 55:53
I agree. I agree. There's a lot of things like that. We just do them. They work and we don't understand them. And that's okay. Exactly. That's okay. Women's Health, I don't even want to get into it. I'm just saying I'm thinking of a lot of parallels with women's health and what we don't know, the gaslighting and everything goes on because I have women in my life and clients that have dealt with that. It's just terrible. But, but there's there's hope, when you talk about, you know, uncovering some of the mysteries as we go along. Okay, so do you have a couple more minutes? Sure. Let's go. Okay. I wanted to ask what your favorite personal episode of your podcast is just to help you like plug it a little. But also, I want to understand what your favorite theme or episode is. Your you just asked
Darlene Marshall 56:33
me to pick my favorite toe, like,
Philip Pape 56:36
oh, pick one or a theme? That was part two, or a theme that you like,
Darlene Marshall 56:41
I can't tell you my favorite episode here.
Philip Pape 56:43
I couldn't either. So
Darlene Marshall 56:44
your favorite eyelash, like it's a tough? How would I will because it's such an extension of myself conception and when it comes to being like Hotelling. Um, you know, I think the cool thing about the show is how much it's evolved. So I started the show originally in February of 2020. When NASM invited me onto their podcast network, we had to do a reboot, because I had been cursing in all previous episodes, and they didn't want me to swear on the network. Okay, fine. I'll take
Philip Pape 57:12
a lot of pressure right there for you. Right.
Darlene Marshall 57:15
Actually, I originally the plan was to have you seen the good place? Yeah. The plan was to like, yeah, to like the way they do cursing on the good place. Yeah, weird words that had the same leading letter. So that was originally my plan. I was like, no that. But it would make it too obvious. So anyway, so we had to do a reboot on the show. It's now been on their network for a year. So we're just had our 50th episode on the network. But originally, it was really going to be like, say, ancient wisdom, modern science through a well being lens, the fitness industry and all that and of the pandemic kit. And so the first two years of the show were really focused on, like, what is the emergent thing that we're all experiencing right now? And how could I give you tools to help with it? And then as we came out of the pandemic, and now we're moving into, who are we now? How do we take these major forces of the human experience like species level challenges, learn from them integrate and step forward? And this recognition that as millennials, you know, young Gen X, millennials, like we're the adults in the room, now, we get a say, so if we're the adults in the room, what are we going to do with it? And how do we do it in a holistic, positive additive way, in a world that has a lot of challenges? And so how do we dismantle some of the toxic stuff that we've been given? Obviously, the fitness and wellness spaces have a lot of that. And so one of the things that we're doing right now, is a series with one of the program directors at NASM. So he runs the teams that are pulling together the new courses, they're they're kind of cultivating the educational materials that NASM produces. Well, he's been on the show this, so he's about to come in again next month. So we're getting a clip of like, every six weeks or so he comes on the show, and he's done a full deep dive literature review into a topic that's controversial in the fitness industry. And we talk about why the conventional wisdom is wrong. So we just did that is in public health. Next. The next one we're going to do is on BMI. We did want to January on why is dieting actually bad? Why is everything you think you know, I mean, even in this conversation, Philip, you mentioned caloric restriction and changing body composition. What most people think that means is actually detrimental to their long term well being and doesn't actually work. But we've been taught to think it does. So that whole episode is him going through all the scientific evidence and us talking through it in a way that would empower For the listener to make better choices. Cool. So yeah, the show's evolved a lot. And it's been really fun to do that.
Philip Pape 1:00:07
Yeah. I love that that you answered the question that way telling us the whole story of how it's changed because my podcast is only a year or what is it a year and a half. And even in that short time, it's just amazing how things go. And the skepticism, you know, my mission is also to kind of put the skeptical lens on, and you're ramping it up for me here, which I love. Like, it's really challenging. It made me think you also probably guess my age when you said, Gen X millennial, so you got it, right.
Darlene Marshall 1:00:33
I was assuming, at this age,
Philip Pape 1:00:35
I was born in 1980. So try writing three,
Darlene Marshall 1:00:37
this is my 40 year.
Philip Pape 1:00:40
Oh, congrats, I guess. And then take each species level challenges and learn, but I love the ambition. And it's great. This is awesome. Good stuff. So second, the last question I asked all guests, Darlene and that is one question. Did you wish I had asked and what is your answer?
Darlene Marshall 1:00:57
You know, I tried to I have my answer for this. And you actually ended up asking. I love when that happens. Okay, so I've got a new one. I think one of the most important conversations we need to be having as a species as especially in the technologically advanced countries, is about loneliness. We are experiencing a loneliness epidemic, that we are only just beginning to understand the ramifications of the mental health crisis that we are having. But a lot of it is due to the lack of feeling authentic connection and compassion and open heartedness to one another. And it sounds really Woo. Except there is very hard science on this, I did do an episode on loneliness in the middle of the winter. And I encourage if you're going to listen anything, go back and listen to that one. Because the physical, emotional and mental health ramifications of loneliness are profound. It is more impactful than diabetes and smoking. But we shrug it off like it's Nbd. And there was a there was a very cute study that came out earlier this year that showed that what reaching out to your friends that you haven't talked to in a long time, you anticipate that they're not going to care and actuality they get this huge boost. So if you take one thing away from me, to our listeners, go tech, somebody you haven't talked to in six months, they need to hear from you. Because we all need each other really desperately right now. Not only for our short term well being but there's no way we're going to solve the problems that we're all facing alone, we got to do it together, which means we have to figure this loneliness thing out.
Philip Pape 1:02:45
So if you're listening, think about that person, go through your history, go through your contacts, find at least one maybe three people that you haven't talked to in a long time. Say hi, yeah, there you go. And send them a funny meme or something else. Go for it emojis. All right. Cool. So definitely, where can listeners learn more about you and your work? They have if they don't know already? Yeah, so
Darlene Marshall 1:03:08
obviously, the show is better than fine. I've got a substack costar dot sub sect.com, which is all just almost all of its application articles. It's like whatever that thing. Is it your Yeah, more the subsets called more better. shows better, the fine, more better. And then Instagram. I'm Darlene doc, coach. My website is Darlene doc coach. I like to keep it all neat.
Philip Pape 1:03:32
Yeah. All about branding. All right. So this has been a lot of fun, Donnelly. Really, I'm super excited. I'm glad Carl recommended you. So I want to give him a shout out for that. I found you and your content and the whole just everything. It's so refreshing and resonates and I think the listeners gonna get a ton of value from this episode. So thank you so much for coming on the show. Thank you very
Darlene Marshall 1:03:53
much for having me.
Philip Pape 1:03:57
If you've been inspired by today's interview, and are ready to take action and build momentum on your health and fitness journey, just schedule a free 30 minute nutrition momentum call with me using the link in my show notes. I promise not to sell or pitch you on anything, but I will help you gain some perspective and guidance so we can get you on the right track toward looking and feeling your best
Ep 80: Flexible Dieting, Evidence-Based Nutrition, and Protein Strategies with Alan Aragon
Today we are diving into flexible dieting and evidence-based fitness with nutrition researcher and educator Alan Aragon. You'll learn about the importance of evidence-based practice for the average person looking to improve their health, rigid vs. flexible dietary control, and the practical side of nutrition, such as protein sources, distribution strategies, and anabolic resistance. He addresses behavior change, food tracking, intermittent fasting, and research gaps in nutrition and fitness.
Today we are diving into flexible dieting and evidence-based fitness with nutrition researcher and educator Alan Aragon. You'll learn about the importance of evidence-based practice for the average person looking to improve their health, rigid vs. flexible dietary control, and the practical side of nutrition, such as protein sources, distribution strategies, and anabolic resistance. He addresses behavior change, food tracking, intermittent fasting, and research gaps in nutrition and fitness.
Alan is a leading advocate for evidence-based information in the fitness industry, with over 30 years of experience. He writes a monthly Research Review, publishing cutting-edge information in popular magazines and scientific literature. Alan co-authored the most-viewed article in JISSN and led the development of the ISSN Position Stand on Diets & Body Composition. He also designs programs for athletes and individuals seeking optimal health.
Alan's book, Flexible Dieting, transformed my perspective on food, coaching, and evidence-based practice. I'm thrilled to have him on the show.
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Book a FREE 30-minute call with Philip here.
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Today you’ll learn all about:
[2:36] His purpose and journey in evidence-based fitness and flexible dieting
[8:33] Importance of evidence-based practice for the average person
[13:18] Selecting and evaluating studies for the monthly research review
[19:45] Rigid vs. flexible dietary control and sustainable results
[28:05] The spectrum of diet control: Intuitive eating and its impact on goals
[30:11] Addressing behavioral challenges in the context of flexible dieting
[31:32] Stephanie shares her experience with her one-on-one nutrition coaching with Philip
[35:35] Incorporating treats and indulgences sustainably
[40:25] Best protein sources and distribution for muscle building and recovery
[42:42] Muscle anabolic resistance in older adults and its implications
[46:26] Ideal protein source split for overall health
[48:16] Protein/carb distribution and carb cycling during a fat loss phase
[55:12] The question Alan wanted Philip to ask
[1:00:24] How to reach out to Alan
[1:00:57] Outro
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Transcript
Alan Aragon 00:00
If nothing else, flexible dieting is a way to individualize the dietary variables to suit the individual's personal preference, personal tolerances and and goals.
Philip Pape 00:14
Welcome to the Wits & Weights podcast. I'm your host Philip Pape. In this twice a week podcast is dedicated to helping you achieve physical self mastery by getting stronger. Optimizing your nutrition and upgrading your body composition will uncover science backed strategies for movement, metabolism, muscle and mindset with a skeptical eye on the fitness industry so you can look and feel your absolute best. Let's dive right in. Wits & Weights community Welcome to another episode of the Wits & Weights Podcast. Today we're diving into flexible dieting and evidence based fitness with nutrition researcher and educator Alan Aragon, you'll learn about the importance of evidence based practice for the average person looking to improve their health, rigid versus flexible dietary control and the practical side of nutrition such as protein sources and distribution strategies and anabolic resistance. We'll tackle common challenges people face related to behavior change and tracking food, as well as nonlinear dieting, such as intermittent fasting. Finally, we'll touch on the latest findings and research gaps in nutrition and fitness. Alan Aragon is a nutrition researcher and educator with over 30 years of success in the field. He is one of the most influential figures in the fitness industries movement toward evidence based information. Alan also writes a monthly research review with cutting edge theoretical practical information. His work has been published everywhere. It's been published in popular magazines in the peer reviewed scientific literature. He co authored nutrient timing revisited the most viewed article in the history of the Journal of the International Society of sports nutrition, and is the lead author of the ISSN position stand on diets and body composition. Alan maintains a private practice designing programs for recreational and professional athletes. And of course, regular people like you and me and him striving to be their best. Finally, Alan is the author of one of my newer favorite books, flexible dieting, a science based reality tested method for achieving and maintaining your optimal physique performance and health. His work has personally impacted the way I look at my relationship with food, my coaching practice and the meaning of evidence based practice, which is why I was thrilled that he accepted my invitation to come on the show. So Alan, welcome to the podcast.
Alan Aragon 02:30
Philip, thank you so much for having me here. It's so great to be here. And it's such a privilege.
Philip Pape 02:35
Yeah, man, you I mean, so you, you are a pioneer of this space. And I've heard you talk about the various stories behind flexible dieting, and If It Fits Your Macros, and the forums and all that, and you've seen this industry go from, from where it was two, three decades ago to where it is now, with social media and everything else. And the fact that health is probably one of the most in demand things that people are trying to work on. You have a lot of great information out there. And then you have a lot of misinformation. What drove you to jump into this field early on? What keeps you going? And then what is your purpose in life now after all of this experience in three decades in the field?
Alan Aragon 03:13
Okay, so what got me in to the field was, I just thought that personal training was a cool thing. You basically you got to have a reason to work out and be fit and be be jacked, or at least try to, and kind of give you a purpose for that. And if you can tie a livelihood to working out, which is something that I really loved in my late teens, early 20s, then it just seemed ideal personal training just seemed ideal. And then once you dive into it, and once you do the work, you see that it's hard work. It's a multifaceted, and frankly, an exhausting job. And, and I also found out what my strengths were, and what my you know what my limitations were. And it just turns out that I was good at teaching, I was good at communicating. And I was much better at sitting around than I was at actually, you know, doing the physical work of training. And so, but yeah, I did, I did training for a good decade, full time training. And I think that once you hit the 10 year point with something that you enjoy enough, then you want to teach people how to do it. And so I hit a point where I wanted to be able to teach people how to train. I went into the avenue of nutrition just because I had to pick a major basically, I wasn't a very well pre planned person. Back in the day. I just I really didn't know what to positively and absolutely do with my life like some people do when in their late teens, early 20s, that wasn't me, I was like, hey, you know, I like fitness and there's nothing really out there. Maybe I can be a trainer, but nobody really knows what the heck that is. And but I'm gonna do it anyway, because I enjoy kind of being different. So I went the nutrition path, and then a decade went by, and then I went the research path for another decade. And then at the end of each of these decades, you're like, you know, that would really cool to be really cool to teach people how to accomplish these things. And, and so here I am at the end of three decades. And what kept me going throughout all of that was just pursuing what interested me. So when personal training, interested me less than nutritional counseling, I pursued nutritional counseling. And when the research and education aspect of things really interested me, I just pursued that. So I tried to make it a point of making sure that I really love what I'm doing. And I go in the direction of basically following my heart, these, you know, these things. And so the the final part of your question about looking back on the on the industry, I'm trying to recall exactly how you worded
Philip Pape 06:30
I made a phone call by giving you not only a compound question, it was like three in one. It was just basically what it what drives you today. What is your purpose right now? So you gave us a good 30 year chunked up into three decade story. Yeah, here. So what is it right now?
Alan Aragon 06:46
My purpose right now is to conduct research, and educate. And I don't think you ever leave being a coach, being a trainer or a counselor, I don't think you ever leave that. I think it's important to have a handful of clients, or for some of the patients, that they help reach their goals. So so when you completely cut that part out of your life, then you cut out the pulse on what works and what works best and how you can sharpen your craft and make it work even better. And so, so right now, the main purposes, is education. And the research aspects of it are integral to the education purpose, because we're continually trying to peel back the layers to get to the heart of what we think we know that there's kind of an unlimited road ahead, as far as that goes. And that's why research just keeps going.
Philip Pape 07:51
And so your your story resonates with me, maybe a lot of people the fact that you just pursued what you enjoyed and kept following, and pivoting. But everything you had done to that point seemed to build on each other. And it's from day one, you had a common theme here of teaching and communicating, which sounds like it's carried through and it's just added to the whole thing. And you and I were talking before even gotten the recording, you know me for coming from the engineering world. I'm now pursuing something else that interested me as well in nutrition, and combining all these skills together, what makes us unique, right, like combining your various 10 year chunks of of pursuits there gets you to where you are today. So actually, let's talk about communication and research. Because in your book, flexible, flexible dieting, the beginning of it. And this was refreshing to me, you didn't just jump into the prescription you you talked about scientific literacy, evidence based practice the hierarchy of evidence. So let's just start there and define what we mean by evidence based practice. Why is it important for the average person who just wants to get healthy and they're like, just tell me what to do. Why is this important?
Alan Aragon 09:01
Well, the best way to understand evidence based practice is to look at the the field of medicine. So we dig back to the ancient times. There's shamans, there's witchdoctors. There's faith healers, there's all kinds of stuff. And so we really didn't know who to listen to, aside from the person with apparently the most successful patients apparent the person who could most successfully perform his psychic surgeries. And so as the march of history went on, and as humans became enlightened, and as science became a thing, then we started realizing, hey, there's something called the scientific method, where Louis Pasteur actually discovered that there's a microbial basis for disease. It didn't just happen out of thin air. And the way that he figured that out was by setting up experiments controlled experiments to elucidate causal relationships between phenomena. And between agent and effect here. And so the body of research grew in medicine. And we didn't, we no longer needed to seek out the most successful shaman or witch doctor or faith healer, we could refer to the body of literature and see what science has found out. And then what we can do is sort of cross check that with what's working in the field. And so this whole model is transferable to exercise and nutrition. And so what what the fitness world was 1520 years ago was a matter of getting the advice from the most muscular dude in the room, or getting the advice from the one guy who's got a regular stream of clients, or getting advice from the one crack with the best line of supplements, right? So it's very, it's it's a similar transfer, to where the evidence based approach in fitness is taking a look at the research basis of a given claim. Whether it be a claim about a protocol, or a product, or some sort of some sort of phenomenon. And we take a look at the research basis for it. And where there are gray areas, in the research literature, which there are many gray areas, then we can look to field observations, and see where we might be able to fill in the gaps in literature. So the evidence based approach is really kind of a cross check between field observations and the scientific literature. It's not just a matter of anecdote and stories and lore, and history and tradition. And it's also not merely a matter of logging on PubMed finding an abstract and waving around in someone's face that you're arguing with on social media. Yeah, I think that's important evidence based practices is kind of the
Philip Pape 12:14
known again, I love history, the history of that going from the witch doctors to Louis Pasteur, and causing effect. And now having this as a baseline, and you, you brought up the counter argument that sometimes people make, which is like, well, there's dozens, if not hundreds of studies, and which ones do you rely on? And how can you take something that's done for eight weeks with who knows what level of trained individual and they're doing leg presses, but we care about squats, and on and on and on and on, where we've got, you know, these 10 coaches who've worked with people for 40 years, they know what they're talking about, don't they? But you're saying it's really a combination of all these things, we can validate real world experience with the data, or maybe counter it, which is where the magic sometimes happens is when you get surprised, and then looking to field observation. So what was that? Gonna ask about that? With the, I guess you do the research review, right? So how do you select the studies? Right? So that's the thing is there's an overwhelming number of studies, like if you go to PubMed or something, and just Google it or go to Google Scholar, whatever? How do you select them for your research review so that they're relevant, and they're actionable? In the context of what you were talking about?
Alan Aragon 13:24
Yeah, that question is pretty, surprisingly simple. If you spend enough time on social media, and you kind of have your eye on what people are talking about, then you get a steady stream of ideas of what people are interested in, what studies are floating across the different media? And what sort of wild claims are being made. And so with studies floating across social media, you have a steady stream of that to begin with. There's a couple of examples of that. And I can actually relate this, this question with one which you you're probably going to ask, which was why is scientific literacy important? And, you know, how do people gain it and kind of basic understanding of that, and I did write, I did dedicate two whole chapters to helping people gain a foundational grounding in scientific literacy. Because if you if you're completely devoid of scientific literacy, you're easily fooled. And you're easily easily conned, you're easily be asked by various forces in the media who either just want to take your money or, or just want to take your money. So yeah, okay, so, so the conversations on social media give me the ideas of what to write about in the Research Review. One example is the World Health Organization put out a press release, saying that, you know, there's a sort of a light penciled in recommendation to not use artificial sweeteners. Because it's, and this has sent the evidence based community in a bit of a tailspin, because the World Health Organization is supposedly authoritative. But when they put out this this soft guideline, they're basically going against a full one half of the evidence base behind this concept behind the topic of artificial sweeteners. So with experimental evidence with interventional evidence, which is controlled, and which does establish causal relationships, you consistently see weight loss, you consistently see fat loss, improvements in body composition, and the ensuing improvements in various health outcomes. From substituting caloric sweeteners with non caloric or local or artificial sweeteners. That's a very consistent finding. But in the observational literature, which does not control the variables, you can only make statistical adjustments here after the fact. But observational stuff, epidemiological stuff, following large populations, but not necessarily getting a hand in there and intervening and controlling and establishing the straight and strong causal arrows. It's mixed, sometimes there is a favorable association with the consumption of artificial sweeteners. And sometimes there's an unfavorable Association. And so those unfavorable associations with artificial sweeteners and disease are what made the World Health Organization just kind of flip a switch and go home, maybe, maybe we need to recommend that people don't, don't consume artificial sweeteners. But the big problem with that is, when you look at the question of whether artificial sweeteners are good for health or not, and you basically lean on observational data for that, then you open up the possibility for this this confounding element called reverse causality. Okay, so, yes, so instead of the artificial sweetener, causing the disease outcomes, what you have are people on route to those disease outcomes, who decide I better hop on this diet product. Yeah, I better use this artificial sweetener. And so the association is still there, but it's in the wrong causal direction. And so that is the case with artificial sweeteners. And that's why the World Health Organization, in its hilariously infinite wisdom is dropping the ball. And so why
Philip Pape 18:11
are they do why are they doing that? What is their incentive is? Because it isn't money? What is their incentive?
Alan Aragon 18:18
That's a really good question. I think, yeah, personally, I think they're just kind of a bunch of out of touch hippies, that perhaps
Philip Pape 18:26
they're just trying to be too conservative because of some sort of liability if they don't, or let you know, just just what it is.
Alan Aragon 18:32
It may be just a matter of people at the top wanting to stir the pot wanting some attention to the sort of basic human need to gain notoriety and get a little bit of spotlight a little bit of the limelight. They did the same thing in 2015, when they tried to push for a recommendation of below 5% of total calories from added sugars, which is preposterous it is they also push for a preposterously low salt intake. So they want people eating three grains of salt and two grains of sugar, and then cutting out your artificial sweeteners. Who the hell are these people? Yeah, now they don't even know these people probably don't even live to Yeah,
Philip Pape 19:14
exactly. Right. That's important. It's so funny. That I think so I was talking to I think it was Eric Helms. We got into discussion a little bit about seed oils as well. And I've heard you talk about that. And I want to go to I don't want to go down the rabbit hole today. I've got other topics I think. But I think it's a similar I think it's a similar thing right where there's
Alan Aragon 19:32
I could probably I could probably beat Eric on the seat off topic. Eric's probably a noob when it comes to see
Philip Pape 19:40
Oh, no. All right. So the important thing is to have that literacy and to read the first two chapters of flexible dieting because it gives you an ALEC is a really good summary of what that is in layman's terms super quick and easy to understand so that you're you're armed going forward And I also in the book where you then took off and started talking about some of that research that lays the foundation. One of those was that I now use a lot when I communicate on this as well as rigid versus flexible control, right? Just kind of underpinning flexible dieting. Because a lot of people will throw out the, If It Fits Your Macros kind of approach as flexible dieting, and we know that there's, that's not what it is. And what I really learned from the science that started in the 90s, when they started putting out these papers was the sustainability and the outcome that is associated with the flexible control. So just walk us a little bit through that journey of the literature and why flexible dieting is such a powerful tool based on what we know for rigid versus flexible control.
Alan Aragon 20:46
Okay, so we get into a time machine go all the way back to the mid 70s. Where there is this talk about the concept of restraint and how it affects people psychologically. And so there's there's flexible, restraint, rigid restraint. And then we fast forward 20 years and, and the literature dives into rigid dietary restraint versus flexible dietary restraint. And so well that can be entertained with the term dietary control. So, so flexible dieting refers to a cognitive style of the type of restraint that you apply to dieting. So the rigid type of control would be a perception of foods and dieting as black or white, all or nothing, a dichotomous view, if you will, of foods and dieting, and the flexible model of dietary control looks at a very broad spectrum of shades of grey. And so the the flexible model has been compared with the rigid model in several studies over the past couple of decades. And it consistently shows better results and better results. I mean, everything from a lesser tendency to stoke eating disorders, and also a better control of weight loss and weight loss maintenance. And so we're looking at better results, both in the psychological direction as well as the physical and physiological direction. And so it's very clear that there's something treacherous foot when you're taking the rigid dietary control approach. And it's, it seems to be self sabotaging. And it seems to not work in the long term for the majority of the population. And so if we were to look at specific examples here, so a rigid dietary control model would be handing somebody a menu, a script, saying, This is what you eat, From Here to Eternity, don't deviate from it, otherwise, you fail. And a flexible model would be more like, okay, let's say even handing somebody the same script. But saying, you know, as long as you do this script, about 80% of the time 80% of the script. And if you do mess up, don't worry about it, just get right back on the wagon and keep going, then that would be a bit more of a flexible type of model. But I think it's important to, to pan back a little bit. And this is a this is a sort of a difficult concept to convey. But read flexible dieting really accounts for the flexibility of dietary approach. So if somebody does better by being more quantitative and precise, and micromanaging, then that's the approach that that individuals should take. If if another individual does better and can sustain their plan by being more qualitative, more habits based, and being more just idea oriented, and not granular and micromanaging, and they do better that way, then that's the approach they should take. And so there's a flexibility of approach going on here to where something like If It Fits Your Macros where you're punching grams into an app might actually drive some people it drives people crazy. And some people can only endure that for a few weeks before they go home and this is a real pain in the butt and I can't do this, then that's that it's not for them, they should be taking the more habits based type of qualitative type of approach to dieting. And I think that if you can individualize that, then that would be ideal. And there are other aspects within dietary programming that can be individualized. And that also falls under the umbrella of flexible dietary control. So a rigid dietary control model would say that, everybody's got to go keto. Whereas a flexible dietary model would be, hey, if you like keto, you prefer to keto, if you like high carb, low fat, then that's what you should do, because you prefer it, and therefore you'll stick to it in the long term, if you'd like somewhere in between, hey, go that way. Because it's all about doing what you personally prefer. And therefore what you can personally sustain for more than just a few weeks or a few months, whatever you like, best is what you'll be able to sustain for a few years, or you know, a few decades. And there are the other things that are flexible within the dietary program are things like food selection, so the if YM model has been, you know, very flexible about what you can choose in terms of food selection, okay, and that's fine. And that should be a flexible thing. Other programming variables that are flexible are the linearity or non linearity of your caloric intake through the week, or what your intake distribution even looks like, through the day, another variable that can be individualized. And really, when you think of variables of the diet that are flexible, you can think of it in terms of programming variables that you can individualize. So if nothing else, flexible dieting is a way to individualize the dietary variables to suit the individual's personal preference, personal tolerances, and controls, sure, and it can even, you can even, you can even customize things like the way that they hold themselves accountable to what they eat, you can you can individualize the tracking and accountability aspect, you can individualize the way that people approach the so called hedonic allotment or the junk food or indulgence foods, how are they going to manage that aspect of the diet? Is it going to be an everyday thing? Is it going to be a once a week thing? So all of these things are
Philip Pape 27:42
flexible? Yeah. And that's, that's the key, right? Because they're the term flexible dieting gets thrown around a lot with that restrictive or rigid definition of calories or macros. And really, the entire approach is flexible across many variables, it's multi dimensional. You know, in your book, you have a few tables that that give you these spectra along these different variables, which is very helpful. What I wonder this question comes to mind is, is there such a thing as too flexible, if you're trying to go for a specific goal, meaning if you have, for example, a body composition goal with fat loss? Doesn't there have to be some boundary that drives you toward that goal that you can successfully follow and meet and know that you got there? Or are we saying that look, if if you want to take two years to lose, you know, the 10 pounds? Because all you cannot tolerate any rigidity, and that flexible approach, then that's what you do? You know what I'm saying?
Alan Aragon 28:37
Yeah, they're, I would still default to what the individual prefers, and how they operate, how the individual, what makes them tick. So we're gonna give a couple of examples. So like, whereas somebody like Eric helms might grab a scale and punch in the grams, and be, you know, do his flexible approach that way. You'll have somebody like Shawn Ray, who says, you know, I just eat less. I just kind of go by feel, and I eat less than if I'm running a certain hunger level, then I know that I'm dieting. Both of them will take, well, actually, Eric will take six months to prepare for a contest. Shomrei will take three months. There's other variables in there that are different in their protocol.
Philip Pape 29:29
Sure. And you could still be weighing yourself. It's like, that's a separate thing that's not really associated with the dieting and so on, right?
Alan Aragon 29:35
Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So it really kind of depends on how the individual ticks and that's sort of the beauty of about of that flexible dieting model is it's really usable for for coaches because their coaches are needed to help people figure out what works best for them. And for individuals who are self taught, well then that will, that's a good thing for them too. But the understanding is your program and your approach is going to be unique to you and what makes you tick.
Philip Pape 30:12
Yeah, honestly, the a lot of the challenges we see aren't just, for example, macros, like even if somebody's willing to do that, and to track it, and understands it. It's the behavior based the cravings, the hunger, the social pressure, the emotional eating all of those things that come into play. Yeah. So like, what's your approach to this in the context of flexible dieting, you kind of already gave the answer the fact that you have flexibility built in, but is there anything beyond that?
Alan Aragon 30:44
I think that just as long as people can focus on the long game, and whether they can see themselves, tracking the way they track or focusing the way they focus, then, then I think it's all realistic and doable. For some people, they truly realize that the most granular that they can get for a lifetime, is making sure at least three of their meals have a substantial hit of protein, and that they're consuming their meals to a comfortable level of fullness. And that will likely get them to be hitting the targets that they want to hit. Sure. Whereas with other people, it's like, okay, get me the scale, and I'm going to be counting grams until I'm 85 years old, and I'm going to really enjoy it. The
31:33
most value that I got from this was the fact that I had someone that I could talk to about anything, and that there was going to be no judgment, it was just Well, here are your goals, here's the best way that you're going to achieve it. And then let's work together to help you feel inspired and motivated to do that. And a lot of people out there trying to be coaches, and not all of them have done the work and also just be a genuine person that is positive. And coming from the heart in terms of wanting to help and Philip really embodied all of those qualities, I would recommend him to just about anyone that's looking to achieve goals in that realm of their nutrition and building new habits.
Philip Pape 32:20
Where do you fall on that? Alan, where do you fall personally,
Alan Aragon 32:24
I'm a little bit, I'm a little bit in the middle as I'm big on, on optimizing the diet for for health and longevity. So, so I'm aware of making sure that that my diet covers the range of the food groups, and that some people think the food groups is an old school thing to, to pay attention to. But the fact of the matter is, we can't just look at the diet as as a set of nutrients, you know, there's some inputs magic within the food matrix of the various food groups, and there are hundreds, probably 1000s of compounds that we haven't isolated, that benefit human health in within each of the food groups. So I make sure that my diet has something from each of the six food groups every day. And I make sure that in so that's the sort of the, the food selection part of it. And then the macro nutrition part of it, I make sure that I'm eating about 40 ish, well, let's say 30 to 50 grams of protein four times a day. Sure, you know, and then I've got my protein covered. And then I just make sure that the meals that I eat our meals that I love, and there if you've nailed the type of meal kind of archetypes that you love, you can just eat that for life, you can have the same types of meals true and, and enjoy them every time. And just like if somebody enjoys coffee, you can enjoy coffee for a freakin lifetime, every single day of your life and it can be the same way with with different meals, different foods. So, so yeah, fine. You have to find what you enjoy. Cover the food groups, get your macro nutrition right with protein being kind of the kind of the foundation there to make sure that you're you're getting enough of because it's very rare for people to need to really gosh, I gotta get enough carbs and gotta get enough fat. Unless you're somebody who has specific athletic goals then those variables are not terribly important. So somebody like myself, I don't have to worry about getting enough calories is number one I love to eat. And number two, I do not have a Eat high energy output. And so if anything I have to kind of keep an eye on, not overeating. Sure. And so yes, it's going to be different with everybody. But with me, I guess the thing that might stick out is the fact that I do care about health quite a bit. So I want to make sure I get all the food groups in, in the course of the day and enough servings from the food groups in through the course of the day in the course of the week. Yeah, I think
Philip Pape 35:27
I'd enjoy sit and sit down with you throughout the course of the day and seeing what you eat. Because it sounds delicious, too, you know, the more you get, yeah, so kind of, I guess the counter counter to that. But you did mention the other side, the indulgences and treats and things that people like. And, of course, a lot of people getting into this journey for the first time or have been struggling, have a lack of awareness of how much the what they eat, what's in what they eat, and on and on and on. And so there's definitely, there's processes that different people have to go through to kind of level up their education and awareness. But we talked about treats and indulgences, once you get to the point where you you understand this and you have an approach, what is the sustainable way to do that, beyond just saying 20%, you know, an allocation, and no, that's part of it. For some people their cravings or, or emotional triggers. You know, some people would do better to abstain, and some people might do better to occasionally indulge so that they kind of take the edge off and enjoy what they enjoy. What is your take on that?
Alan Aragon 36:29
I think this is another department where you have to dive into what the individual's proclivities are. So there is a small subset of people who are better off not having any of the classic junk foods. But Alternatively, they have to investigate the foods that really fulfill that part of their primal needs. You know, like, some people will feel an, an incredible reward response from eating some fresh fruit. A, okay, that's great, if you want to stick with that, and you don't want to do the cakes and the cookies and the ice cream. Okay, cool, then that's you. Whereas others may actually be able to sustain a diet better if they can have a double scoop of ice cream on the weekend. Or a, an in and out, double double, let's say, on the weekend, or whatever, whatever it is, but sort of this model of 10 to 20% of total calories coming from whatever, it can manifest in different ways. So like with me, for example, my in quotes, discretionary calorie allotment is usually chocolate, some form of chocolate, and that's usually daily. And so I will have about, I probably err on the 10 to 15% of my total calories coming from indulgence foods. So an example would be about two to 300 calories of some kind of chocolaty dessert, it's usually a little closer to 200, than than 300. But it's, it's chocolate, I can add nuts to it, I can add peanut butter to it. And I truly enjoy, I don't need to dive into an entire cake to get that that itch scratched. Because I know I'm going to have it the next day if I want to. And so as long as it's framed for the person's kind of just mindset to perceive this as this is something I can take or leave and this is something I can have every day if I want or not. And when that mindset is established, then the kind of indulgence and the forbidden fruit aspect of the food and the power that the food has over the individual is kind of taken away. Yeah. So So yeah, that would
Philip Pape 39:17
be the approach and that's a great way to put it the forbidden fruit aspect the power it gets taken away. You earlier mentioned your heat Donek allotment and that's sometimes a term I hear used or what is called plan hedonism, we'll plan higher calorie it goes really for all of this and it goes back to the rigid versus flexible approach again of once you set rules on to people man we just rebel we like mentally we just don't want to be told what to do is the way I like to put it and so when you're telling yourself you can't do this, it's just just a built to go Yeah.
Alan Aragon 39:51
Yeah, what would most people it does, and in fact, what people have binge eating disorder, the vast majority of the I have it in their mind that they're not allowed to have XY and Z foods, you know, this list of foods, I am not allowed to have these foods they have that in their mind. And those are the precise foods that they've been John.
Philip Pape 40:15
Got it? Yeah, it makes sense. So okay, so we've talked a lot about the control or the restraint aspect. I maybe talk about you mentioned protein for a bit. So I didn't want to ask you like this, this has come up quite a bit. With some other coaches I've talked about the split between protein sources are foods that you eat and the sources you get, in other words, animal versus plant, and all the various outcomes, muscle building, but also cardiovascular health and lean mass and all of those things. Is there like a hierarchy of when it comes to selecting foods to get our protein? Or does it really always come back to just get enough spread it throughout the day and have a diverse diet with like the six food groups and you're good?
Alan Aragon 41:02
For the majority of the population, dude, what you just said is going to apply for the majority of the population that that is bright on actually. But for people who are nitpicking towards the you know the fringes and the limits the optimal aspects, then it's going to come down to omnivore ism, it's going to come down to including both animal and plant foods as far as protein goes. But theoretically, you know, you can construct a diet that that'll help you live to the mean, the mean high higher end age, or a favorable upper upper end. But it depends on how much you really kind of obsess over health and how protective you are of mental health. And how complete you you want your your nutrient intake to be. And so I'm always going to personally default to omnivore ism for that. And that is not to say that there is an innumerable amount of people doing well if x cluding animal foods, but I don't personally want to incur any of the risks and sub optimizations associated with it.
Philip Pape 42:29
Talk to Eric Trexler. About that. Yeah, he is. Yeah, I'll miss it. I actually talking to him next week. So he's gonna explore some of that the interesting, as we get older, the idea of anabolic resistance, which I haven't honestly dived into too much, but how big of a deal is that phenomenon? Like, how why does it happen? And what can we do about it? Like, is it is it? Is it related to age? Or is it related to kind of a loss of muscle mass most people have, because I haven't been training, for example.
Alan Aragon 43:04
Okay, so um, that's a good actually a good transition like a 100%, plant based and the elderly population, those are two things that don't go well. And that's because there are certain critical aspects of the diet that can be fulfilled, more feasibly with an omnivorous diet in the elderly, than with with a completely plant based diet. unless you can convince elderly folks to eat the volume of foods and the types of foods and the supplementation of, let's say, protein sources, and the use of engineered plant protein type sources that could hypothetically cover their their essential amino acids and protein needs to protect against sarcopenia that can be an issue. And so now, even when you do that, you're still not going to get all the nutrients that are available within animal foods, you're still not going to get new collagen. And there is quite a lot of research showing the benefits of collagen supplementation, getting collagen within the diet, the role of collagen and even basic things like tissue healing, you're not going to get that you're not going to get creatine unless you supplement with it. You're not going to get other things like carnitine carnosine answering the debatable one cholesterol, whether that's going to net help you or not. And, and so, a lot of these compounds like marine based Omega three EPA DHA, especially DHA, you're going to have a hell of a time getting that in a in an animal free diet, unless you supplement with an algal based DHA, EPA. And so people who switch over to a full bore plant based thing, and they're doing it for ideological reasons. Hey, have at it. Have at it, Eric.
Philip Pape 45:28
Eric's ready to get started now.
Alan Aragon 45:32
They can both have at it. That's when things get get interesting. But But yeah, one of the reasons that I have not even at the tender age of 51, crossed over to full plant based and not even close, is because I'm too protective of my of the optimization of my own personal health, and my own personal longevity, I don't think it's possible to take to recreate the nutrition in animal based foods, and by throwing together a bunch of the compounds that we know, at which that might be the sum of the parts and attempting to create the whole in a plant based form. Just Color Me skeptical. But yeah,
Philip Pape 46:25
yeah, no, that's cool. I didn't know you're honestly gonna go there. Because I was just curious about incorporating plants, not so much going all the way plant based. But I'm glad you brought that up. Because because people ask that and you have a fairly definitive position on that, that that people should understand, or at least the compromises and trade offs are making if they decide to go one way or the other and have to make decisions to fill in the gaps. Okay, and I am
Alan Aragon 46:50
very, I'm very live and let live. I think that people have the right to take that road, take the plant based road. And a lot of people do quite well on I mean, at the population level, and at the sort of at the at the general population level via people who do vegan ism properly. They do very well. I just, you know, personally for myself and you my loved ones, I I wouldn't I put a little bit of a blockade on.
Philip Pape 47:28
So it's all good. It's all good.
Alan Aragon 47:30
And I have many I have many vegan friends. I have many vegan friends. Sure. And I'm glad that that they that, you know, not every vegan is living let live in this aspect. But I'm glad my vegan friends are very live and let live with me as an omnivore rather than kind of judging and then excluding and condemning. But yeah, the judges cluding can condemn thing.
Philip Pape 47:56
Yeah, no, I agree, Doc dogma and putting up those walls and everything. We don't need that. Oh, well. Okay, so let's get into another hot topic. Maybe not hot topic. But it's an interesting one. That's nonlinear dieting. And intermittent fasting is the big one that comes out of there. But there's also other many other strategies you talked about in the book. One, one thing I wanted to ask about specifically what we talked about that time restricted feeding, but also carb cycling, in the context of when somebody is in a fat loss phase, and they're just don't have many calories to work with, you know, they have low calories, maybe two or three meals a day. Is there any value in the nonlinear dieting approach, like carb cycling for that or intermittent fasting for that matter?
Alan Aragon 48:42
The kind of the anti climactic answer Phillip is that it depends on it depends on whether the person prefers it depends on whether the person prefers it. So the conditions where nonlinear dieting work best are usually under conditions where somebody will a prefers it. And if we're talking about just like, like meal frequency, are we talking about meal frequency in general? Are we talking about carb intake specifically?
Philip Pape 49:21
That's a good question, right? Because there's both the protein carb distribution because of your workouts, for example, to make sure you have enough carbs around your workouts, and there's also the muscle protein synthesis, right? So all of these come into play. It's like should we squeeze everything using time restricted feeding, because I'm also going to be ravenous. Other times for some people? And is it gonna, like throw all this other stuff out the window? Or is it just fine? You know, like, whatever works for you. It's good enough.
Alan Aragon 49:50
Yeah, it depends on really kind of depends on on the scenario. Yeah. Depends on the goal. So it's like, you know, with these questions Since like, what's the goal and what's the population. So with, let's take an extreme population like competitive bodybuilders or competitive physique athletes, there's almost always going to be a carb cycling or a calorie cycling type of model, especially towards towards the end in deep spots of prep, where you're not going to be going linear, low calorie, to where those spikes or those carb ups are going to both serve as a psychological boost as well as boost in training capacity to kind of preserve that during during those stretches. And so if somebody has a large amount of carbs allotted to them daily, then the need for cycling them is close to nil. Now, if somebody is taking a low carb model or a ketogenic diet model, then a nonlinear approach to carbon taken can boost adherence, and it can improve training performance on certain days. And so it really depends on the individual situation. And so now if we go away from carbs, and on to just meals, in general, that truly just depends on the individual's preference. Some people prefer a grazing pattern. Whereas some people prefer more of a gorging pattern, where instead of eating like four to six small meals a day, they're eating, like two to three larger meals a day. And there's really no advantage specific to each of those or exclusive to each of those beyond the person's personal preference for them. For either one of those. And the intermittent fasting topic is really, it is really fascinating. And we've looked at that quite a bit, I just wrote a kind of a monster a review on intermittent fasting effects on body composition. Apparently, the human species is just extremely tolerant and resilient, have such a wide range of permutations of meal frequencies through the day, and through the week that it honestly almost doesn't matter to the point where it's really all about personal preference and what your goal is. So the different variants of intermittent fasting are interesting to look at because you have the one variant which is just concentrating your feeding window to a shorter time period in the day. So time restricted eating or time restricted feeding, as we used to call it. This was popularized by Martin Birkin when an Oreo Hof Mechler, with a Warrior Diet where you give yourself somewhere between usually 568 hours to eat your to eat all the food in your day. There's a lot of research research been done on that with and without training, there's been a lot of research on alternate day fasting, whether it be zero calorie alternate day fasting, or a little bit more gentle model where on your inputs, fasting days, you're eating like about 500 ish calories a day. That's the Crysta Verity model of alternate day fasting. And then there's the twice weekly fasting with a five two model, which is an even more gentle version of the alternate day fasting. So all of these models have been studied. All of these models have done comparably well to daily caloric restriction for weight loss and fat loss. But then the subtleties and the nuances there are interesting too, depending on what what goal you're looking at. But okay, a misconception with fasting is that it's better for your health better for longevity.
Philip Pape 54:03
Due to all sorts of theories autophagy or whatever else. Yeah, yeah, so that's
Alan Aragon 54:08
not that's not true. That's just a bunch of speculations. And, in fact, the leaner, you get the leaner and more fit you get, the more risky fasting becomes for the preservation of lean body mass.
Philip Pape 54:25
Yes. Yeah, no, I this is great. And I'll tell you, I've personally tried various forms of, if over the years, lean games, protocol, facet training, whatever. And I always came back to just eating when I kind of felt right. And by that tends to work, right, because it's sustainable. And I love that people can hear this and just continue to dispel these myths and realize that it's so simple. I mean, it can be simple. It's like what works for you. And then the other variables you have to tweak to get to your goal get there, but don't try to go after this next shiny thing or some You know, pet theory, just because whatever you're doing now maybe isn't working for other reasons, but like consistency and adherents. So it's a good message and we keep hammering home. So I thank you for that. I know we're running short on time. So I'm just going to ask my second last question, which I asked all my guests. And that is Alan, what one question Did you wish I had asked, and what is your answer?
Alan Aragon 55:24
Dude, can I tell you that? I read the show notes. And I read that damn question. And I'm like, I am genuinely stumped. I'm stumped. But I, I lean towards maybe wanting to be asked, What if there's something else that I would rather be doing than what I'm doing?
Philip Pape 55:52
Oh, that's an interesting one.
Alan Aragon 55:55
If you had if a genie could just kind of wave a wand over you. And would give you your dream job or your dream vocation, you know, your just your dream situation? Would you? What would that be? And I I am at a loss for thinking of what I enjoy more than what I'm doing right now, which is researching and teaching and striving for self improvement and helping others do that the same thing. So I can't think I can't think of it. But then now here's the hilarious part, okay. About 25 years ago, I was at the gym, and this older guy. He he struck up a conversation with me, and he said, Okay, check this out, man. This is everybody claims that they want to be this or that or what they want to become this or that. But here's the thing that everybody would want to be. Regardless, here's the thing, every guy would leave their job for no matter what you work as. And I'm like, Okay, what he's all a male supermodel.
Philip Pape 57:23
I didn't see that comment, that was just something profound. Looking at him, and he says,
Alan Aragon 57:31
I'm serious, every guy would leave the job that imagine that you get paid millions of dollars to stand there and look good.
Philip Pape 57:43
The process of tightening look good, because that's the hard part.
Alan Aragon 57:48
And that was super duper hilarious. And then there's another hilarious story attached to that, where I've done these, these talks on succeeding in the fitness industry. Like, how to how to succeed, okay? And so my definition, my personal definition of success is doing what you love to do. But what you're actually doing is something you would not trade out for any other other job, any other career. So if you're doing what you love, more than anything, it's more than any other kind of career, that you can think of career position or whatever that you can think of. Then you're succeeding if you're doing that. And,
Philip Pape 58:39
and yeah, meaning you don't have to have a certain results doing that just yet. You've already succeeded because you're doing what you love, right? You're
Alan Aragon 58:46
because you're because you're doing what you love. And if you're doing what you love, then then you you're successful. Now, this is the super funny part. I gave this talk. And my friend Brad Schoenfeld was in the audience. And he yelled this out, like, in the middle of me saying, Okay, so I'm trying to think of exactly how I said it. So I get this, right. I said if you're okay, no, no, no, yeah, I said, I, I feel like I've succeeded. Because there's, there's no nobody out there. Whose shoes I would trade. You know, there, whether it's whether it's Tom Cruise or Lord knows what you know, think of a celebrity think of somebody who has it all or anything. There's nobody out there, who I would trade places with. And then Brad Schoenfeld yells from the audience. Except Brett stupid hilarious. Because Because Brett you know, as much as we like, like to think our jobs are awesome. Like, of course, Brett Brett got to figure it out better than we do. Right. So, so so it was just amazing. He said he yelled it out loud. The the audience just died laughing because they get the joke. And so yeah, so aside from maybe a supermodel or Brett. Yeah, got it.
Philip Pape 1:00:15
Now that's a good question, one of the thought to ask you that because you do seem to just love what you do. So I wouldn't even I wouldn't even have dared, you know. I do love it. And then yeah, no, that's awesome. That's awesome. So I could have easily asked you a million more questions. But let's just end with how people can best reach out to you and learn about you.
Alan Aragon 1:00:34
Alan aragon.com is the hub of everything. My largest social media platform is Instagram. And I'm occasionally on Twitter and Facebook and even more rarely on Tik Tok. For better probably, I don't know. Yeah.
Philip Pape 1:00:49
All right, yeah, tick tock. I know so many platforms. Okay. So I'll go I'll put those in the show notes people easily be able to find you of course. And this was a pleasure and an honor Alan, I really appreciate you, you know, replying to my invitation when I reached out to you by video on IG actually, and coming on the shows. It was awesome. Thank you for coming on.
Alan Aragon 1:01:09
Thank you right back Phillip.
Philip Pape 1:01:12
Thank you for tuning in to another episode of Wits & Weights. If you found value in today's episode, and know someone else who's looking to level up their Wits & Weights. Please take a moment to share this episode with them. And make sure to hit the Follow button in your podcast platform right now to catch the next episode. Until then, stay strong.
Ep 79: Solving the Fat Loss Conundrum Through Self-Love and Mind-Body Health with Allie Cass
Today I have a very special guest with me. Her name is Allie Cass, and she is a former bodybuilding pro turned functional health and fitness coach who helps stressed-out women optimize their metabolism, up-level their mindset, and shift from surviving to thriving. Allie will share her unique perspectives on health and fitness, the importance of the mind-body connection in overcoming health challenges, and how to up-level your mindset to achieve your goals. You'll learn about the fat-loss conundrum—where hormones, gut health, and stress intersect—and practical strategies for optimizing these. We will explore topics like body positivity, self-improvement, and self-love.
Today I'm sitting down with Greg Nuckols to talk about lifting, MacroFactor, and science. You'll learn what he's been up to lately, his take on lifting and life, and all things MacroFactor. We'll also explore how to be consistent and maybe even enjoy tracking your nutrition, incorporating scientific research into your health and fitness routine, and other words of wisdom.Today I have a very special guest with me. Her name is Allie Cass, and she is a former bodybuilding pro turned functional health and fitness coach who helps stressed-out women optimize their metabolism, up-level their mindset, and shift from surviving to thriving. Allie will share her unique perspectives on health and fitness, the importance of the mind-body connection in overcoming health challenges, and how to up-level your mindset to achieve your goals.
You'll learn about the fat-loss conundrum—where hormones, gut health, and stress intersect—and practical strategies for optimizing these. We will explore topics like body positivity, self-improvement, and self-love.
Allie is the founder of Allie Cass Health and the Metabolic Makeover, an online immersion program that teaches women how to reclaim their health, heal their metabolism, ditch self-sabotage, and create a life of strength and vitality. She’s an advocate for self-love, becoming your best self through mind-body health, and living a life fully alive!
__________
Book a FREE 30-minute call with Philip here.
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Today you’ll learn all about:
[2:05] Transition from professional bodybuilding to health coaching
[6:24] Living in the extremes of being unhealthy to professional bodybuilding
[10:00] The power of self-love and the right mindset
[13:16] Shifting the narrative to self-love and healing
[17:11] The impact of mindset on well-being
[20:46] Impact of life stress on fitness
[23:34] Taking action to level up the mindset
[26:08] Assigning meaning and taking control
[28:44] Lisa credits Philip's coaching for her 17-lb weight loss and gives him a grateful shout-out
[29:30] The Fat-Loss Conundrum
[33:22] Pre-diet, maintenance, or prep to normalize a dysfunction
[34:53] High-impact actions to improve gut health
[38:25] Mindfulness when eating and taking a walk after meals
[40:39] Managing the different layers of life stress
[46:44] Overcoming negative body-image
[51:28] Performance-based vs. habit-based approach for teens
[53:33] Helping women to live fully alive
[57:40] The question Allie wished Philip asked
[58:55] Outro
Episode resources:
Mindset & Metabolism Makeover: Allie’s one-on-one mind-body transformation program
Instagram: @alliecasshealth
FREE 30-minute results breakthrough session with Philip ⬇️
https://witsandweights.com/free-call
Learn about 1-on-1 coaching ⬇️
https://witsandweights.com/coaching
Ask Philip anything ⬇️
IG: @witsandweights
Email: philip@witsandweights.com
Podcast: Q&A voicemail
🥩 Download Ultimate Macros Guide and 50 High-Protein Recipes here
🫙 Get high-quality 1st Phorm supplements here
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Transcript
Allie Cass 00:00
And then let's say they're in a really high stress career and they finally make a decision and they're like, You know what? I can't do this anymore. I'm gonna make a pivot. They go to something they're more satisfied with and they dropped 10 pounds like that.
Philip Pape 00:14
Welcome to the Wits & Weights podcast. I'm your host Philip pape, and this twice a week podcast is dedicated to helping you achieve physical self mastery by getting stronger. Optimizing your nutrition and upgrading your body composition will uncover science backed strategies for movement, metabolism, muscle and mindset with a skeptical eye on the fitness industry, so you can look and feel your absolute best. Let's dive right in. Wits & Weights community Welcome to another episode of the Wits & Weights Podcast. Today I have a very special guest with me. Her name is Allie Cass and she's a former bodybuilding Pro turned functional fitness, functional health and fitness coach who helps stressed out women optimize their metabolism uplevel their mindset and shift from surviving to thriving, Ali will share her unique perspectives on health and fitness, the importance of the mind body connection in overcoming health challenges, and how to uplevel your mindset to achieve your goals. You'll learn about the fat loss conundrum where hormones gut health and stress intersect, and practical strategies for optimizing these. We will explore topics like body positivity, self improvement and self love. Ali's the founder of ally casts health and the metabolic makeover, an online immersion program that teaches women how to reclaim their health, heal their metabolism, ditch self sabotage, and create a life of strength and vitality. She's an advocate for self love becoming your best self through mind body health and living life fully alive. Ali, welcome to the show.
Allie Cass 01:43
Thank you so much for having me. That was a fire introduction. I think you wrote that better than I would have written up myself.
Philip Pape 01:49
So we tried to do here break the fire and I know you will as well. So I'm really excited. Thank you for coming out. I just I have to just say this everybody, like we both had a little mix up in our, in our appointment time here and we were able to pull it together, jump on and now we're recording the show. So it's gonna be fun. Okay, so what what was the turning point for you? You could tell me your whole story. But I really want to understand the turning point in your life when you transition from being a professional bikini fitness competitor, right to as you call it a health and fitness fanatic and business owner.
Allie Cass 02:21
Yes. So I will say there were two big turning points for me. The first was technically prior to becoming a bodybuilding competitor and then professional. And that was right after I graduated college, my mother was diagnosed with stage three brain cancer. I had been an athlete my entire life. So I wasn't competing in bodybuilding, but I was always competing in some sort of sport and some shape or form. Movement was always very important to me. But that was when I realized a couple of things in my life, I realized that no one taught me how to nourish my body. Nobody taught me about nutrition, health, stress management, sleep recovery. It was all about training for that competition. And I saw myself being the unhealthiest that I had ever been simultaneously watching my mom get sick and going through that journey with her. I also realized through that process, a lot of the flaws that we have in our western medical system, and how how the system that we live in is really a system to treat sick people not help people be their healthiest. So she was really my catalyst, my mom getting cancer, she passed away nine months after her initial diagnosis. And that was really the catalyst of me getting into this industry, doing it for myself, but also doing it with the intention of helping other women because I started asking questions like What makes someone truly healthy? You know, what is the role that nutrition, environmental toxins, stress, thoughts, beliefs, like where do these all intersect? And how does that interplay to either make somebody a healthier version of themselves or to make them sick, and it really was actually a way for me to cope with that loss. And I didn't know it at the time. So fast forward a couple of months, I again, I found myself in a place where I was the heaviest I'd ever been. I was 22 years old, and I felt like Shi T. I was tired. I just I didn't like the way that I was showing up in the world. And I didn't feel like myself. I hired a health and fitness coach and I really just wanted someone to help me get back on track and just give me a goal to work towards the athlete. And he was like, No, I'm not working toward anything. I don't know what I'm doing. And she was like, why don't you compete in bodybuilding? And I was like, why don't you recommend something that doesn't sound as terrible as that but she quickly convinced me to do it. It became a wonderful thing for me at that point in my life and at that point in my journey. However, about a year and a half into bodybuilding, I had that kind of second pivot point where I realized okay, I went from one end to the spectrum. Now I'm totally on the other like my de Rivoli. was around when I'm going to eat, what food do I have access to? When am I going to work out and it, it served its point for part of my life. And then I was like, wow, this is controlling my life, I now have body dysmorphia. I don't have an eating disorder, but I have disordered eating habits and patterns and views around food. And so I really weren't like many women, I was like, either at zero or I was at 100. So once I made it over to 100, I was like, still didn't really feel very healthy either. And even though I look amazing, I still feel like I don't quite feel my best. So that was that turning point where I was like, Okay, I need to get out of this competitive space. And I need to focus on from a functional perspective. Again, going back to the root of health, what does that really look like for me? What areas are not optimized? And how can I fix those, so I can show up as a better version of myself to help other people. And so it was that initial, you know, having that tragedy going through that that really got me into the space. And then it was realizing that I had gone from one unhealthy end of the spectrum all the way to the other where I was like, whoa, okay, this isn't it either. And that kind of caused me to take a little bit of a pivot. And I will say, I'm not quite as lean or ripped as I was when I was a competitor. But I feel the best I've ever felt in my body, both physically and mentally. And it's such a great place to be.
Philip Pape 06:23
Oh, that's such a great story. I mean, talking about the extremes like that there are people who look at fitness influencers, and they look at an ideal. And think wouldn't it be great to be there. And it sounds like you've, you've had the personal experience, at least of going from the spectrum of, okay, there's a lack of health, right, there's sickness, there's maybe doing things that sabotage your health and so on to I want to look great and have this aesthetical in this very specific, extreme ideal, and you did that it sounds like and learn from it. Do you have any regrets of going through that? Are you happy you went through that? Because it taught you those extremes?
Allie Cass 07:00
Absolutely. I'm so grateful for the experience. And then like I said, at the time, it was also a way for me to process my grief and process the anger that I had around losing my mom in a more healthy productive way, as opposed to, you know, going out and binge drinking and then reaping the, you know, the the cons of that. And so it did serve its purpose, for a lot of different reasons. It opened me up to the world that I'm now in, if I hadn't met my coach and mentor in that process, I actually ended up buying her business, I've rebranded. So it's been at whole evolution. And so I'm a big believer that at any given point in time, we're right where we're meant to be, even if it doesn't feel or look the way that we want it to. And so I'm very grateful for the journey and I've oftentimes thought about what if I just went back and did one more show, and I don't know that I ever will but I am grateful for what I've learned in the process.
Philip Pape 07:53
I know what you mean there if I didn't get into lifting tie was around 40. And I've never been like through a properly proper like shred phase, you know, getting totally cut I had I had Cody McBroom on my show not long ago, his shows coming out. And toward the end, he's like, hey, you know, if you ever want to get shredded, reach out to me, I'm like, you know, I want to do that, because I've heard from bodybuilders what that can cause but like you said, there's value in all of these and some of the some of the behaviors you had to apply for even the extremes of that. I imagine you still use some of those to to a certain level, like maybe tracking food, or at least being aware of things that you can help clients get through, would you say it's a fair statement?
Allie Cass 08:30
Absolutely. And tracking foods are a really great example. Because it's something I was having this conversation this morning with a client. It's not something I do all the time. But it is something that I will bring myself through periods of doing that, because I think that I know where I'm at. But sometimes it is really beneficial to get that accurate picture of exactly what's going on. Because sometimes we self report and we're not that accurate with what we're really doing. So I think that everything that I learned in bodybuilding, and this could be the case with anything that you learn in life can be used as a tool in the right circumstance with the right intention. And so for me, it's all about the intention, right? Like, am I doing this because I feel like I need to get shredded, because it's going to make me look and feel a way that my ego is going to make me happy, you know, am I feeling unworthy of something? And I feel that I need to do this? Or is it purely because I really want that accurate data? I want to have a good picture of where I'm at so I can make data informed decisions about what I should do next.
Philip Pape 09:25
Yeah, you put it great. Bass when you said the tool is, well, it's agnostic, right? You need it for a circumstance and an intention. And I do agree with that, because I was actually just recording a solo episode about when to lose lose fat or build muscle or whatever under different scenarios and talk about food tracking how if you have the intuition, it may you may not need it at all. And you may even not eat it if you've never done it before, but there's value in it to going through it at least for a time. And so even limiting these extremes for a tad you know, just especially with guidance of a coach can be enlightening, right if nothing else Exactly. All right. So I mean, you're, you're a big advocate for self love living life fully alive. I love that language. It's very positive, very optimistic, and, and even self centered in the right way if I can put it that way, because we often neglect ourselves for years. That's right. So how do you define these concepts? Like what are and then practically, how can we cultivate these? Yeah, absolutely.
Allie Cass 10:23
So I love the topic of self love, because it's one of those that has gained so much traction on Instagram and social media. But I think people explore it a lot of times in a not so constructive way. So I feel like you have people on one side of the spectrum, who are just it's go go go at self improvement all the time, you know, it's not, it's never good enough. And then you have people on the other side that are like, love yourself, and it's all magic and rainbows, and you're perfect the way that you are. And it's, I think that mindset can breed complacency. So what I oftentimes tell clients is, in my opinion, self love is doing the things necessary to get you to where you want to be in life. Now, again, what's the intention behind that? Where you want to be in life? Are we doing it because it's genuinely gonna make us a better person? Is it gonna make our life better? Is it gonna give us the tools that we can, you know, have a more positive impact in the world? Or is it coming from a place of I feel unworthy, I feel lack all of that. So we, when I work with clients, we dive into those things. But I think that self love, sometimes is doing the hard things, right? It's actually having the discipline to show up and do what I need to do to help me reach that next level of what it is that I truly desire. I don't think that self love is going to get your nails done, or going to get a massage, like those are all great things, if that's what you're into self care. Right. Exactly, exactly. So I think there's a lot of noise on social media. And I think people get confused. Because it's like, you know, it's, you're a parent, right? You have kids. And sometimes, what you have to do for your kids, to show them that you love them is not the thing that they want you to do in that moment. So sometimes we need to do that same thing with ourselves. Because we do love ourselves. And we do want to get better. So I think that when you can look at those things a little more objectively, you can say like, wow, you know, maybe going to the gym today, or maybe making a better choice with my nutrition or whatever XYZ is actually a form of self love and not a form of discipline, or not discipline, but restriction or something like that. And so that's where I try to help clients reframe their mindset around what is the self love talk topic? Because I think that self love and self improvement are not mutually exclusive. But oftentimes in the industry, when we talk about them, it seems as though they are, I think they're one in the same personally.
Philip Pape 12:40
For sure. That's where we can get into things like body positivity and accepting yourself versus, you know, accepting the person you are and then striving for more, because you love that person.
Allie Cass 12:50
Right. Exactly. And that self acceptance, I think what you said is literally the key, right? It's not about like, let's just fake pretend that we love ourselves right now, right? But it's like, I accept myself, just as I accept you, just as I accept everyone else in the world, can we all do better? Sure, let's go do it. But you have to have that acceptance first, at a healthy level before you can make yourself better, and have it come from a positive place of intention.
Philip Pape 13:16
So when you see people struggle with that, or come in with, you know, I've had clients who are just it's very, very difficult for them to get over themselves as that one way to put it, or even they're just just in a routine from years and years of self sabotage of like, I can't, I didn't make any excuses and so on. How do you deal with that? The real extremes of that and getting them shifted toward this positive mindset?
Allie Cass 13:39
Yeah, I mean, I would be lying if I said it was easy. Some clients, it's certainly easier than others. But for me, it's all about bringing that awareness. First, I think, for a lot of those people who have been living in that mindset, or in that place for a long time, that's just the narrative, that's their norm. They don't even realize that that's kind of the place that they live in. And so bringing to attention the verbiage that they use to talk about themselves, or to talk about how they interact with the world, asking questions, you know, why do you believe this? Or where does this stem from? Is this your belief? Or did you pick this up from someone? And so, I, when I'm coaching people, I try to have this come up as an organic thing, because I think that people also have to be ready to explore those areas. But I just start poking little holes in keep going and asking questions. And I even had a client the other day who she said something that we were in a dialogue and she said something about like, I know, I can't have this or something along those lines. And I was like, Okay, let's, you know, let's reframe that verbiage. Because the reality is, is no one's telling you, you can't, you're just adopting that belief because of what you've been told. And so we talked about it, I offered a different perspective. And she's like, Well, that makes total sense. Thank you for interjecting on that. And so I find that like when you have a really good relationship between client and coach, which is a big deal for me when I work with people Will, you can foster you know, that connection and start using that to shed some light for people. Now, sometimes it's a lot harder I have sent clients to therapy before it just as a recommendation, you know, like if I can tell that something is stemming from, let's say a childhood trauma or something that's really deep that I'm, you know, it's a little bit outside of my scope, I will make that recommendation, I explained to them how that's affecting not just their mindset that their physiology and how they're showing up now. And so, you know, it kind of depends on the person. But I'm a big proponent of unpacking those things, whether it's me whether it's with another professional because I do see the impact that it has on their health on their wellness and how they show up.
Philip Pape 15:43
You know, what's great about coaching, because you talked about the personal experience, I was thinking of a Netflix documentary called Stutz with Jonah Hill. I don't know if you've seen it yet. I haven't. But I need to, you should watch. It's one of those things where the hook isn't that great. And it doesn't look that interesting when you watch it like this blows your mind, especially as a coach because as a a psychotherapist, this particular man who works with him, believes a lot using tools to help me help people move forward rather than focusing so much on the past. And like sitting in all the all this trauma. And of course, we're not we're not shrinks, and but because someone's coming to you with the intent of taking a step forward and improving themselves are already in that mindset of I want to do something to move here. It's not just talking to someone, necessarily, exactly. So you just you just talked about how like having a coach like you get deep with them can uncover things, even if you're not a psychotherapist, for the intent of using a tool to move forward. So it's a good distinction to make and why having support is very helpful because even our own family members who love us don't necessarily have the, the awareness or the ability to provide that exact same type of support.
Allie Cass 16:48
Exactly. And sometimes, at least in my experience, it's hard to get certain feedback from your partner or from people that are in your family or people that you're close with, especially when we're you know, starting to really dig into like things at a deep emotional level. And so sometimes it's nice to have somebody who you know, cares about you, but it's a little bit more of a third party.
Philip Pape 17:10
Yeah, exactly. So so we're getting into mindset stuff here. And I did want to explore that because so many conversations I have with coaches and even my own experience with clients, it's 99% up here. And there is a connection and you're talking there's physiological connections, there's there's emotional connections, neurological and so on. You you wrote, quote, I don't know if this was on your website, but I, I found it somewhere, quote, We can literally die at any moment. And while that is a terrifying thought, for some, it's what gives us the drive to make the most out of each and every day, which is what I help women do through mind body transformation. And like, for me that connection, that mind body connection is powerful, because one tends to unleash the other and create this perfect storm and elevates the whole person, you know, physically and mentally. Sharon example now that we're getting to mindset of how you've seen that connection play a role in overcoming any health challenge.
Allie Cass 18:03
Yeah, I'll speak with my own experience. About four years ago, I found myself again, kind of in this place where I wasn't I wasn't sick, per se, I had some gut issues, I had some other things, low level challenges that I was working on. I just I didn't feel my best I was working out. So I felt like my exercise is pretty on point my nutrition, maybe could have done a little bit better. But again, pretty on point was definitely not a newbie at that point in time, supplementation felt like that was on point. And I just felt energetically low. A lot of the time like I felt heavy, I felt like I was carrying around a lot of baggage I couldn't quite figure it out. And when I sat down and I really dissected that I realized that I had a lot of grief from losing my mom, I also under went to a another traumatic death when I was in high school. And so I realized that a lot of the things that I thought that I had addressed, I had not really addressed, I just pushed down and was like I'm strong, I can deal with it. And so it was that factor. And then on the other side of the coin, I also realized there were a lot of situations and things that I was engaging in on a daily basis in my own life that I just wasn't happy with. And so it was literally the energetic weight of me feeling unhappy me carrying grief me holding on to burdens from the past that I for some reason, could not let go of at that time, but thought that I had. And when I went through the process, I went to therapy myself, I started doing a lot of self work, I started really analyzing what was going on in my mind. What I really wanted out of life and where the incongruency was between where I was at then what I was saying that I wanted and why I wasn't showing up that way. And as I started to work on those things. I just started feeling more energized. I started feeling happier, I felt lighter, and I just started showing up differently. So it was interesting because I kept saying like, Well, gosh, like I'm not eating anything that I know bothers me. I'm working out you know, I'm sleeping pretty well and it was just I kept going back to those things like, what am I doing wrong? What am I missing? And the reality was It was everything going on inside, was refusing to address that was keeping me feeling less than my best. So that's an example of how I've seen that play out in my own life. And, you know, similar similarly with clients, I've had clients before who are amazing women, they're dedicated to the process, they do all the right things, and they get great results. And then let's say they're in a really high stress career, and they finally make a decision. And they're like, You know what, I can't do this anymore, I'm going to make a pivot, they go to something they're more satisfied with, and they drop 10 pounds like that, like they're happier, they sleep better, their stress levels are, are significantly lower, and then that shows up in their physical manifestation of a body.
Philip Pape 20:46
Yeah, I want to explore that a bit. Have you? What is? Have you looked into the research on this? So we all understand that that life stress can affect our energy expenditure directly, right, because of just the way our body goes into a certain mode of preservation, and there's all the hormones and cortisol and everything else? I mean, what what is the research, say, if you've looked at it in something like a massive, you said, holding on to burdens, you thought you'd let go like that massive of a trauma you're sitting with that, then all of a sudden is off your shoulders? How does that cause your expenditure to come back up?
Allie Cass 21:17
Well, if you think about the, from, like a psychological perspective, that is a form of stress, which just not you know, this external, we think of stress is like my job or my relationship or my finances, but in reality, if that's what's going on in your mind at all times, that's signaling a stress response. So if I, you know, it's like, if you're driving your car, and you, I don't know if you've ever had this happen, where you're driving at night, and it's like, you're kind of tired and like you think you see an animal, like, run out and like across the road, but like, nothing's actually there. And all of a sudden, you're like, oh, and you get that like, hit of adrenaline, and you're like jazz, and you're like, Oh, my God, nothing was there, right? Like, I thought that I saw something. So it's what we think and what we seek can have that physical reaction in the body. So I haven't spent a ton of time in the literature, but from my understanding, and the education that I've gone through on the mind, body subject, and then with stress response, psychological thoughts, emotions, as well, every time we have a thought that produces an emotion, we release a neuropeptide, that creates a chemical reaction in the body. So that can either create stress within ourselves, or it can help alleviate stress, which is, you know, another reason why I don't know if you've ever had this experience, but like, when you're in a new relationship, or you're in a new job, something that you're really excited about, it's like your sleep can be like, totally crap, like you can be eating, like junk food, but you still feel really good. You're like hyped on life. You're like, whatever man like. Yeah. And so I think that what we go through internally, and even so like our perception of what we go through, I think plays into how we feel like a significant amount.
Philip Pape 22:53
That's good perception. Yeah, it's so true. Having like having good friends in your life, for example, I mean, there's a few relationships I've established through podcasting, where we'll send each other videos, and I'll get a video and they'll say something that just pumps me up and motivates me, I'm like, the whatever happened that day almost doesn't matter. Because now all of a sudden, you've got this fire in your brain and the energy that you didn't know where it came from. So you talked about perception, which I think of things like the fixed versus growth mindset, right? The constant curiosity, willingness to challenge ourselves, and then even even mastering our behaviors by mastering our thoughts, like, again, it all comes down to framing, you can't talk about framing. So what is your view of maybe we get philosophical here of mindset as a concept? How do we take action to level up the mindset, as you say, Talk Talk about that a little bit.
Allie Cass 23:44
So how do we take action to level up the mindset? That's a good question and strategies? So again, I think it you know, it kind of depends on the person and what they're looking to level up in their mindset. Is it just having more self awareness? Is it cultivating better self talk? I mean, I'm just a huge advocate of self awareness in the first place. I think that a lot of times we can sit down and be realistic with ourselves and say, like, and that's one of the hardest things for people as one of the hardest thing for me was to sit down and just be real. Like, we might think we're being truthful to everyone else, but like, are you telling yourself the truth and so being able to have that hard conversation with ourselves? I think once that awareness comes up, a lot of times the cascade of changes starts to naturally occur once that awareness is on the forefront. I'm really big into strategies like meditation and visualization. Not everybody resonates with those things I do because I'm like, I need to sit down and have quiet and still time. And so for me, that's really big. You know, even things like gratitude. It sounds so cliche I know that's everywhere. Now, you know, practice gratitude, but it's, it's really physically impossible to be like angry or to have negative emotions when you are genuinely feeling grateful for something. And so just kind of take for me personally taking myself back to those places. And acknowledging. Again, when I'm having a day, let's say where my mindset is not so great, or I am, you know, it's just one of those days where you're like, what else is gonna happen? Acknowledging that whatever is going on in my head that is not productive is there for a reason, you know, we always talk about to win, like the, the philosophical kind of woowoo side of the world. They're always like, you know, the ego death, I believe that the ego serves to protect us. And I think that's a beautiful thing. So I, when I feel my ego getting really like, you know, you're not good enough for Who were you to do this, I stopped for a second, I show gratitude for I say, Thank you for trying to keep me safe, but we're good. We've got this, like, what our life is not in danger. So like, please sit over there and be quiet. And when danger comes up, you can you can say something that and so, you know, I think acknowledging different parts of yourself going back to that self acceptance, and being grateful for those parts, but recognizing what's serving you or what isn't at any given time. can be very helpful.
Philip Pape 26:05
Okay, there's, there's a lot there. So you did talk about No, no, there's a lot there. I'm trying to figure out what you want to poke at. You talked about self awareness, what came to my mind was emotional intelligence, and how that's like the first part of self awareness. This theme comes up all the time. And the more I know, personally, the more uncomfortable I sit with, who I am and what I do to people, meaning if I ask somebody for honest feedback, which we rarely do, because it scares us what the answer is going to be. And, you know, nine out of 10, people are saying, like, you're awesome. And then that other person says, you know, this one thing you did? And of course, we focus on that, right. But it does allow us to put a lens back on ourselves and maybe get, just just get comfortable with who we are. I mean, you can kind of set it, whether it's a self reflection of the gratitude or journaling. Some people love that. And some people hate this stuff. And it's okay, find the thing that works for you. Yeah, yeah, we're getting deep here. But self awareness. Let's let's put that in a nutshell is kind of what it's all about. Yeah, absolutely.
Allie Cass 27:04
One other thing I would say too, is understanding the role that you play in any given situation. So I find it like funny if I had like a room full of women in front of me, and I just say women, because I work with women. And I was like, if I ask them to raise their hands on like, Who here is like a, you know, a self proclaimed control freak, like most of them would raise their hands like, I would raise my hand. And so like, I feel like as humans, we have this desire to have control over all these things that happen, when in reality, the only thing we can control is how we respond to a situation and the responsibility that we take from a situation regardless of if it's our fault or not. So if something can happen to us, it's not our fault. But it's our responsibility to decide what kind of meaning we're going to sign to that, and then how we're going to move forward. And so few people actually put that into practice. So I just find this like irony of people wanting to be in control. But the one thing that actually gives them control over their circumstances they refuse to do because it involves taking responsibility for a situation that oftentimes might not even be our fault. And maybe we don't like the situation, that's fine. But it's our responsibility to analyze that and figure out how we're going to move forward with it. And so that's another thing that like, taking radical ownership for my life, even when I'm like you, what just happened? Like that's been a game changer, because now I have the control to change it.
Philip Pape 28:19
Yeah, you are imagine, right? This moment is a reset, and you were just born into the world like you have all the control to do whatever happens next, regardless of what happened in the past. Yeah. And that's a common theme we hear a lot like with stoicism of whatever happened in the past, you can blame people you can do whatever, it doesn't matter. You're responsible in the future. And unfortunately, some people are in worse situations than others. But again, it doesn't matter. Start there and move forward. Right. Love it.
28:45
Hi, my name is Lisa. And I'd like to Big shout out to my nutrition coach Philip pape, with his coaching I have lost 17 pounds, he helped me identify the reason that I wanted to lose weight, and it's very simple longevity. I want to be healthy, active and independent until the day I die. He introduced me to this wonderful Apple macro factor I got that part of my nutrition figured out along with that is the movement part of nutrition, there's a plan to it and really helped me with that. The other thing he helped me with was knowing that I need to get a lot of steps in so the more steps you have, the higher your expenditure is and the easier it is to lose weight when it's presented to you like he presents it it makes even more sense. And the other thing that he had was a hunter guide and that really helped me so thank you below.
Philip Pape 29:29
Okay, so getting a little more nuts and bolts on maybe the fat loss conundrum thing that you have here. I like that. I like words like conundrum
Allie Cass 29:36
I know that was good.
Philip Pape 29:39
You did that's like your it's like your theme like everywhere? No, no, the fat loss conundrum, which is how hormones gut health and stress affect our metabolism. So you're right, you don't really explain what the conundrum is. So now I have you on the show to do that. To me, that means like it's the contradiction maybe between the improved health you get from losing fat and getting into a mat a manageable healthy weight, but also all the downregulation potential damage, not damage downregulation adaptation that occurs from maybe excessive fat loss that you experience with the extremes, right have either been very unhealthy or being unhealthy in the other direction with the bodybuilding career. Is that what you mean? Or is there something completely different with that?
Allie Cass 30:19
Yeah, no, that's that's definitely part of it. So I think that's a huge component, especially in the women's space where the narrative, oftentimes it's just eat less move more, yes, there are many people out there that do need to eat less and move more there are a lot of women who are maybe moving, maybe need to move more, but also need to eat more, because they have been told since they were children, young girls, you know, eat less, don't eat all your food when you go out for a date. Because, you know, nobody wants to look like they're eating all their food. I was not that person. I was like, I will order Second. Thank you. So that is part of it. But also the role that things like hormones, gut health, you know, your thyroid stress, what that that cortisol connection, how that actually impacts your metabolism and your ability to burn fat. So really, I think the conundrum there at a very high level for people is just understanding that all of these things affect your ability to lose fat, they affect your metabolism, your metabolism is a dynamic thing, right? As you mentioned, metabolic adaptation, it adapts down, it adapts upward. It adapts to the inputs that it's receiving, which is an amazing thing from a survival perspective. But I see women a lot of times who don't think you know, they I have clients all the time, who will have signs and symptoms of some level of hormone imbalance. And I'm like, hey, maybe we should get your blood work done. Or let's check this out. And most of them are receptive to it. But every now and then I'll have someone who's like, no, that's, that's not it's not a big deal. Or people downplay the role that their stress plays, let's say, they're like, Well, you know, like, I've been doing this for 12 weeks, and I can't seem to lose fat, and everything's on point, but Oh, my God, I run my own business. I work 80 hours a week, and I'm a single mom, and like, my life is miserable. But no, no, no, no, no, I meditation, I don't need to do that. Or I don't need to like, you know, delegate some stuff. That's fine. It's not that. So what should I do for nutrition? And I'm like, tell
Philip Pape 32:07
me my macros. Scenario. Yes, yeah.
Allie Cass 32:11
And I similarly, I've had people with like, pretty severe gut issues that exactly I'm like, we really need to visit this as a foundation first, because your fat loss efforts are going to be much easier once we address these things. And again, yes, they're like, no, no, no, I've done that before. I just need exactly I need you to tell me what my macros are. Like, I will not do that. So it is that intersection, right, like everything is integrated within the body and within the mind and the body. So I just think that people in general, need to learn that even though in a Western setting, you know, we segment different systems of the body, or different parts of the body for ease of teaching, or for ease of treating in a Western setting. But the reality is, is that when something is dysfunctional in one system, or in one organ, it's going to have downstream effects that are going to affect other things. So if you have five different things going on, regardless of where it started, they're all interconnected, in some sense. And if your goal is fat loss, and you have dysfunction in these different areas, your fat loss efforts, if they happen are going to happen with much more restriction, it's going to be a lot harder, you're not going to enjoy the process, it's not going to be as easy as it could otherwise be.
Philip Pape 33:21
Yeah, so I'm guessing you go you take clients through some sort of pre diet, maintenance, or prep, or whatever phase we call it to try to, at least regularly or normalize these as best as possible.
Allie Cass 33:32
100%. If I see that there's dysfunction first, every now and then I get someone that comes in, and they already have a really good base, and we can just kind of hit the ground running. But yeah, it's it's addressing gut dysfunction it is addressing do we need to spend time balancing hormones do we need to feed you up so that you're not living on you know, 1000 calories a day, and I have to go into a cut at 600 calories, which I would never do, because I wasn't gonna do that myself. And it is it's an The unfortunate thing is that it's not sexy for a lot of people, right? Like they want to come in and they want that like, well, you know, Suzy on Instagram told me, I could like lose 12 pounds of fat and eight weeks. And I'm like, that's because Susie's just selling you a standard program. And she's not looking at any of this. So the reality is, is that it's probably going to take longer, because we really need to fix this first. And I'm very transparent with clients that like, I will not run your body into the ground for the sake of you achieving an aesthetic goal. So if you can't spend time being in this, this phase, I just call it a health first phase, right? We're just building your foundation and then we're going to build your house. If you can't build the foundation, then don't expect to have a nice house.
Philip Pape 34:36
Yeah, love it. I mean, any I guess on the other side, it's really satisfying when someone says, Well, there's one small tweak, you know, having some electrolytes or you know, starting a probiotic or just getting the extra half hour sleep. All of a sudden, everything started to move, you know, it's just better. Let's, let's talk about health. Right, because that's Yeah, I think it's still misunderstood topic. It's one of those. I'll say newer topic. that are being explored where where we actually don't understand a lot about science, you know, from the evidence. And there's a lot of research going on. So how can we even if we don't know it, all right, we could at least have practical strategies for dealing with it, improving our digestion, improving our microbiome biota? How would you summarize this whole thing, and maybe the top two or three high impact actions people can take. So
Allie Cass 35:22
without having any background, so I know everybody listening is going to be like, Well, I have, you know, I have bloating, or I get some gas or you know, whatever it is, but without knowing any of those things. And I've had clients where we've been on extensive gut protocols, and I can tell you those things, or they have a time in place, if needed. But what makes the most impact for so many people is not eating in a like not eating while you're on the run, sitting down, like trying to recenter yourself, shifting into a parasympathetic state, taking some deep breaths before you eat, which I know for a lot of people, if you're, if you want a business, if you work full time, and you're in meetings all day, that can be really difficult. But just not eating when your body is in a some sort of stressed out or sympathetic state can be wondrous for your digestive tract. Because when you are, go, go go and you're in a sympathetic state, your body is not prioritizing digestion, because in its mind, it thinks that we are fighting against a stressor, whatever that means. And so I think, for people, something like that can be really impactful. And along the lines of sitting down and slowing down to eat your food, chewing your food thoroughly, not inhaling, taking, like three bites, and then being like, oh, gotta swallow that one. You also have a more pleasurable eating experience, when you actually sit down, calm down, take the time, taste your food, savor the sensations. And that can help prevent overeating as well, when you actually slow down and you take the time to enjoy your food. And it's better for digestion. So, people are always like, yeah, digestion begins, you know, in the gut, or in the stomach, and it's like, no, then you have people who are like digestion begins in the mouth, because we secrete enzymes in our saliva. And it's like, no, it actually doesn't it begins in the mind, right? Like, have you ever been like, like, late at night, you're like, sitting on the couch, and like a Wendy's commercial comes up, which is like, I've not had Wendy's in probably eight years, but every now and then they get me and I'm like, Oh my God, that kind of looks good right now. And your your watch, or your mouth starts to water, you know, or, you know, you go into a bakery and close up of the juicy burger. Exactly, yeah. So it's just that visual, right then is producing saliva, which has enzymes, kickstarting what your body thinks to be the digestive process based on the input that you're getting it from what you're seeing. So it begins in the mind. So sitting down, looking at your food, giving yourself a second that can be really impactful for gut health. And then doing more low impact activity like walking especially after meals super beneficial, not just for stabilizing blood sugar, but for helping your body with digestion. So I can tell you, I've had clients on you know, I've done a whole four or five, our protocol with them, we've gone super deep, we've done a GI map, we know what's going on what, what pathogens are in there. And it's like, what has had the most profound effect was eating and eating in a parasympathetic state, chewing their food more, going for walks, after meals, slowing down. You know those things so without, you know, anyone who's listening that feels like you have got issues without doing a deep dive into what you have just start there. And I guarantee you, you'll make some progress of some sort.
Philip Pape 38:25
Oh, I love it. This is really good, because well, I want to dissect both of them but but the general idea that a lot of these things we think are big problems that have to be dissected to the nth degree often have a big simple solution that we're just not doing or refusing to do or not aware that we need to do right all of the above I've can be easily accused often just rushing through the kitchen, grabbing whatever I need to grab and trying to eat it because I've got a million things to do. And like you said, mindfulness is a potential cure to digestion which are digestive issues which we talked about mindful eating all the time, but it's like always this whoo thing of I don't even know how it's justified usually it's it's in the context of you're going to eat last or something like that right and for digestion, which a lot of people experience I love that the walking would you say there's so I like walk into I talk about all the time like walk as much as you can walk before meals after meals like pacing around the house when you're on the phone. Is it after a meal before meal when's like the best time to walk when we're talking about digestion if there is
Allie Cass 39:27
so I've not actually seen and there could be research on walking before meals. I haven't actually taken a look to dive into that but there's a lot on walking postprandial so after your meal, to help with the digestive process and to help with blood sugar. So if you're eating something and it's causing a blood sugar spike going for a walk can help kind of stabilize that as well. And so all the research I've seen partially because that's what I've sought out is after post meal like 1520 minutes, nothing super intense. You don't need to go for a power walk. Just a nice leisurely walk down the street, around your house, whatever.
Philip Pape 40:00
Yeah, and you know, Brandon Cruz's big fan of like talking about that with compared to Smith Metformin, the type two diabetes drug and its whole high flux lifestyle does is there a court so what's Is there a correlation between blood sugar than indigestion? I'm really asking these.
Allie Cass 40:17
These are great questions I'm like, okay, just so everyone knows as at the time we're recording this. It's Friday, so my brain was like I I'm not sure I'm trying to think back if I've seen anything. But again, it's not something that I've purposely sought out. But I think I might, that might be a takeaway from it, we should look that up. We should look that up, and then come back for round two.
Philip Pape 40:38
There we go. Awesome. Cool. So all right. So stress, you mentioned stress as the other piece of this, besides besides hormones, stress management. And my question was going to be like your practices for effectively managing stress. And now that we've talked a lot about it, you know, you talked about the different I guess, layers of life stress, there's the really deep stuff that's just sitting with you, for years. Then there's the situational stress, like you have a job, a family, and so on. And I always like to tell people, like, there's certain things you can't control, there are certain things you can, but there's probably things you think you can't, that you can, like, you can change your job, you can move, there are big decisions and big changes. But if something is so chronic, that it's just beating you down, and this is your health, think about it, right? Whatever, what are your thoughts on all these different layers of stress, and then just managing stress in a doable way for people
Allie Cass 41:30
100% I mean, I think all of the layers of stress are very valid. And again, depending on the person, I think, starting with what might be something that's manageable, manageable for them, right. And I think you know, talking about stress, we can also look at internal stressors as well, things like inflammation and things like having type two diabetes, and having blood sugar that's off the charts like that is a form of stress to the body. So you can manage a lot of stress from an internal perspective with the proper changes to nutrition, exercise, lifestyle, things like that. But for those other things, the the relationships, the jobs, the trauma, and the emotions, potentially, that we're carrying from the past. I think they all play a role. And I think at some point, they all need to be addressed. However, I think, with anything, personally, a plan or whatever route forward has to be feasible in some sense for somebody. So it doesn't matter if it's exercise, nutrition, trust management, if I give you the best plan in the world, but you can't, at least effectively execute some of it, then it doesn't matter how good the plan so I, I really, when I work with people, I really try to take an individualized approach. So I have a client right now who unfortunately, her mother has cancer, and she is a caregiver. And so that's actually something we're actively working on right now is okay, we might not be able to control, you know, what is going on with our mom. And we have to show up at various times to be that support. But what can we control, we can control our self talk, we can control the foods we can consume, we can control our bedtime most of the time, you know, when we have extra time we can control are we doing? are we including movement? What are we doing? So I think stress management looks different for different people at different stages in life. And it just has to be something that's feasible. So for instance, like I mentioned, I love meditating, meditating, I love sitting in stillness, because my days can feel kind of scattered and crazy and a lot of interacting. And sometimes I need that to recharge. So for me, that's a form of stress management, going for a walk, that can be another form of stress management. And so I think for people finding something that feels good to them, and that can look different. And that might look different for you at different stages of life, as well. But I do think, you know, like you mentioned, there are a lot of things that we think are out of our control that they're not, but they're big decisions. And sometimes we don't want to face those things. And when I work with clients, I try again, I see my role a lot of times is just bringing up the self awareness and then helping clients choose which path we're going to take now it's up to them to decide if that's what they want to do. I would never tell somebody, you should quit your job, even though sometimes I want to. But just to bring up the fact that like, wow, like, I never realized that I a lot of my stress actually is stemming from my job, is there something else I can do instead? Let's explore that. And so I think that, again, going back to that self self ownership and taking responsibility for what's going on in our lives gives us a lot more power to change it. But I do think that all of those stressors need to be addressed, but it's like anything, right? Like, if there's 10 stressors once we start peeling it layer by layer, we might find that the other things aren't having as much impact on us when we don't have that that's pile stacking on top of it.
Philip Pape 44:47
Yeah, that's so I'm sure there's like a there's a threshold you know, he does you it's so funny, a client asked the other day, like he's like I have some extra free time. What can I do to just de stress and I'm like, you know Ask yourself a question like, What did I what am I really love to do? That I haven't done in a while, you know, and that you just think back to it just gave you so much joy, maybe forget everything like, it could be simple things. I love doing karaoke with my daughters now at night sometimes before they go to bed. And it's just like, you know, my brain is into the music and dancing with them and just like sharing the microphone and like, not everything goes away. Right? What is that for you? If you're listening, you know, and, and like you said, we have to help you choose what it is, your coach or somebody else is not going to tell you what that is. But the self awareness is where it's at?
Allie Cass 45:35
Absolutely. That's actually a question I asked in my intake form is What is something you used to do either as a child or just in general that you don't do anymore? Because you know, adult responsibilities and like, oftentimes, that's a homework item. It's like, take one hour. And if it's feasible, go do it. Like I started doing adult gymnastics about five months ago, because I love trampolines. And I love doing backflips. And it brings me a ton of joy. Yeah,
Philip Pape 45:56
I need to start playing my saxophone again. I used to play jazz. And for years, that's how I met my wife. Amazing. My kids are now playing instruments, and they don't see me play. And I'm like, that's a missed opportunity for all of us. So there you go. Maybe that's I don't want to commit to now. That's your homework for the week. It's my homework. Cool. All right, I want to touch on you have some time, right little the body positivity. Let's get into that very non controversial topic for a bit. Okay. And we talked about this health centric approach to wellness, and balancing you we talked about acceptance and self love and then striving for more, and even striving for a lot more depends on what that is to you. But it could be in your case, in that period of life where you strove for a physique, a certain physique, right? And it could be somebody trying to be super strong and compete or whatever. Maybe we've already touched this, but how do you? How do you help clients overcome that negative body image? self criticism? You know, did we already I guess we already covered this,
Allie Cass 46:53
we kind of want to talk about it a little more? Yeah, let's do it. Yeah. So again, first, starting with where is this? What is the dialogue? First off? And where is it coming from? Is that genuinely what you believe about yourself? Is that what you were told, growing up, you know, does this stem from, like, I didn't receive enough love as a child. So I feel like I have to look or present a certain way in order to get that. So helping clients kind of dissect where that's coming from, for me helps shift my strategy. I mean, I've had, I've had clients go through exercises where I have them stand in front of a mirror, and they just let whatever thoughts come up naturally about their body. And when if it's like, I hate my midsection, I have them actually spend time focusing and setting an intention to shift the narrative around their midsection. And so you know, it just kind of depends on the person.
Philip Pape 47:45
How do you do that? So if they said I hate my midsection, what what's the Oh,
Allie Cass 47:49
yeah, so this is them actually, in the exercise. So I don't I let them do this on their own. I'm like, you don't have to share unless you feel comfortable. But I actually have them repeat affirmations to themselves of it. It's not I you know, I love my midsection, right? Because if we hate something, and we try to pretend like we love it, like our minds, like Yeah, right, like you lie. But again, just going back to that acceptance, starting to say I accept you as you are, I'm working to change you, but I accept you as you are now. So just focusing on that acceptance. Also helping clients shift the focus to what their body is doing for them and can do for them. So one of the it sounds so silly, but one of the most profound moments for me in my journey of this body positivity or self love, acceptance, whatever you want to call it. So sitting on my couch one day, I think I'd had like a glass or two of wine. I like a nice wine every now and then.
Philip Pape 48:38
Me to
Allie Cass 48:42
wine at a jazz concert. That actually sounds really nice. So yeah. But yeah, I was thinking about just from a cellular perspective, how our body is constantly just trying to keep us in homeostasis. And it was like, it felt so silly. But I had this lightbulb moment of like, wow, every time I do something, whether it's have a glass of wine or eat something that I know is not really health promoting, my body is working 24/7 for the duration of my entire life, to basically take the things that I do, that aren't conducive to my health and bring me back into that homeostasis. So I can be healthy. And I was like, holy cow, like, like, if that is not love. I don't know what is right. Like, how many of us you as a parent, right? You show up for your kids day in and day out because you love them our bodies are doing for this, us doing this for us, our entire lives. No matter how we talk to it, no matter how we look at it, no matter what kind of trash we expose ourselves to. It's constantly showing up for us to make us healthy. And I was like, literally on my couch like, I'm not crying, you're crying like like it was just such a beautiful moment of like, wow, we live in this vessel that is just, it's constantly working for us, even when we have symptoms that don't feel good. And we think like, you know, I hear that narrative all the time. Like my body hates me Are, my body's doing this? It doesn't. And so just shifting the narrative around that and realizing that no matter what you're going through, your body is always trying to work in your favor, we just need to help it along that process.
Philip Pape 50:12
That's so good. I'm imagining like a visual here imagining like a line, a spectrum, right? Where there's the equilibrium in the middle, and your body's already trying to always trying to get you back there. And we, you know, make choices that that push it away and push it away and push it away. And it's trying to get this back. So if we weren't cool with it, we give it a helping hand, right? And if it's if the result is not what you want, and there's something else in our control that we might have to go after, it is a great way to look at it.
Allie Cass 50:39
Yeah. And if you think about it as like a friend or a loved one, like, if your loved one was constantly trying to help you and bring you back, and you were like, Oh, you're ugly, and fat, and I don't like you like, like, when you think about it like that you're like I would never speak to you know, a person I love like that. And so for me, that was just really a really big mindset shift. And so I tried to help clients with that. And then, you know, the last thing that is really I feel like a missing component for clients is helping them focus on performance, right? So all, every single one of my clients right now wants to be able to do pull ups, which I think is amazing, because I do pull up. So when I finally could do pull ups, I was like, this is the coolest thing ever. So focusing on like, yes, we're working on our fat loss goals, right? But let's focus on like feeling badass in our bodies, like, because that's what's really cool. Honestly, at the end of the day, it's
Philip Pape 51:27
huge. You know? So speaking of that, I actually wanted to ask you about a specific scenario. Do you work with teenagers? Teenage girls like 1617?
Allie Cass 51:34
I don't specialize in that I do. I don't have any on my roster right now.
Philip Pape 51:39
Because I'm just curious about your thoughts about that. If you had like, let's say a 16 year old who's who's an average bodyweight, right, lean, whatever you want to call it, and she wants she comes with you wanting to improve our physique. And we don't have any trauma going on, right, or disorders going on? What approach would you take? Would it be a performance based approach a habit based approach, we're not really focused so much on the things that maybe an adult could write, let's say,
Allie Cass 52:03
I mean, I would probably take a mix of those approach, I would probably I would work on habits for sure. Just because I don't think kids or teenagers, unless you have a great parental like, example. They're not taught healthy habits. So I think just from the purpose of carrying them into adulthood, with with good habits, is something instrumental. And I mean, I was not the best, but that's one thing I learned in sports and athletics that I'm just so so grateful for. So I think I would focus on that. But I think I would focus more on performance in the greeting with someone who's 15 1617, right, like, I mean, I could give them a workout plan, let's say that's going to give them a physique that they want. And I could make it about performance, and they're still going to get the physique they want, because their bodies are like so resilient, and so adaptive. But from like, the mental perspective, I wouldn't be focusing on like, Yeah, girl, like, let's get you sexy, and shredded. Like I would never, I mean, I don't really talk like that anyway. But that would never be my verbiage with someone
Philip Pape 52:59
who is like, let's have let's have fun. Instead, here's your
Allie Cass 53:02
right, let's have fun. Let's feel strong. Like, yes, if that was their goal, that would be baked into it. But that wouldn't be the way I presented, if that makes sense. So I would very much be like, like, let's have like, you know, what's something that your friends can't do that you won't be able to do? Right? Like, how can you be like, the one in the group who, you know, you guys go to the club and, like, those guys over there are afraid to come talk to you guys. Because you're like, you look like you've worked on us or something. You know, like, what can we do to make sure like that? So
Philip Pape 53:30
love that. Okay, yeah. And I was just curious. So you do have this mission to help women live fully alive. And again, the image, something that comes to my mind is like the fog being lifted, having this vitality, this energy's mental clarity. What does that concept mean to you? Because we didn't really touch on that phraseology that you use, and how do you measure the impact on someone who isn't fully alive? And you want to get them there?
Allie Cass 53:55
Absolutely. So for me, it's about whatever your ideal life looks like, how can we get you there using the tools of nutrition and fitness lifestyle, and oftentimes, like, I like to connect clients with other resources that they need to get to that point, even if it's another person if it's just helping them with a different life transition. So where that stems from that phrase, when my mom passed, she was super just turned six years old. She had worked her entire life. She was kind of the breadwinner for much of my life from my parents. My dad had some health issues and so he wasn't able to work from the time I was like 10 years old, until he passed in 2020. And so my mom was like the one who kind of took care of everything. She was probably one of the hardest working people I've ever met in my life. But she was so great. She never really asked for help. And she was just such a you know, that kind of image of like a really strong woman now I think it would be a whole nother topic for another podcast could be the detriment of that right of not asking for help. However, she had this vision When she retired when she was only a few years from that her and my dad, they had a cabin in northern Arizona in the mountains, they were living in Phoenix at the time when she was sick. And she had this vision of you know, we're going to retire, we're going to go spend time in the mountains, we're going to travel we're going to spend time with my sister has three boys, and then my oldest sister has a daughter. So we're gonna go travel to Atlanta and spend time with the grandkids and this and that. And she never got to do that, you know, she got started feeling bad one day, went to the hospital, and basically got told you have 18 months max to live. And so I realized from that situation that we can't live life afraid of when we're gonna die. But the reality is, is that we never know when that's going to happen. So I tried to check in with myself and ask myself, if I found out that I was going to die in six months, would I be happy and content with the way that I've been living my life so far? And can I look back and say, wow, like, maybe I didn't get to do every single thing that I wanted to, I have no regrets. And I have been, like, fully present in this life for the time that I've given. And I see so many people, women and men alike who cruise through their day like zombies, because they're unhappy with what they're doing. They feel like crap. They wake up on Monday, and they cannot wait for it to be Friday afternoon. So they can live for those two days that they don't have to go to work. They don't have to do anything. They can sit around, eat, drink, do whatever they want. And I just think it's so sad. Like, I can't imagine living that way. And looking back when I'm 80. And thinking, holy cow, I've been here for eight years. And that's what I've been doing for most of it. So when I am helping women, yes, it's about getting healthier. Yes. It's about you know, conquering their fitness goals, whatever that means to them. But the reality is, is if what we're doing isn't serving to make you better, so you can live this freaking epic life, whatever that means to you. Even if that means like, I just want more time and energy to send my kids with my family. Like, I love the job that I'm at awesome. Like, let's keep doing it. That's my goal, right? Because I want people to look back when they're at and think like, damn, this has been a good ride. Like, I feel good about this. Not wow, I was given this chance. And I didn't make the most of it. I think that's like, the saddest thing ever, like breaks my heart thinking about it.
Philip Pape 57:20
So good ally. So I mean, people who are listening this is this is not about a physical transformation, right? This is not about changing something in the short term. This is like if you're gonna die in less than two years, if you don't what you want to do and then even longer than that, would you like to live? You know, if you're going to live for many years? How do you want to thrive doing that? Yeah, really good. Ally. Okay, so here's the second to last question. I like to ask all guests unless you're prepared for it or not, but
Allie Cass 57:45
I hit me.
Philip Pape 57:48
What one question Did you wish I had asked, and what is your answer?
Allie Cass 57:52
Oh, my gosh, um, it's so funny. I'm, I'm never someone that really I don't really like enter into anything with any kind of expectation. So I did not have any questions that you didn't ask. But you didn't ask me what? Well, I guess I already answered. You didn't ask me what my thing that brings me joy that I used to do that. I don't, it's okay. But I went ahead and answered, I was like, Whatever I'll ask myself and that that was doing adult gymnastics. I also love hiking. I love being in nature. I'm actually I will already have my camper van when this release is I'm sure I'm in the process of getting a camper van right now. So I'm going to do some traveling in that which is very exciting. So yeah, I love exploring. I love seeing new things, trying new things.
Philip Pape 58:34
positive way to end and anyone listening like think about the same thing for you What brings you joy. Okay, Ally. So where can listeners learn more about you and your work?
Allie Cass 58:44
Yes. So I am on Instagram at ally cast health or you can visit my website www dot alleycats health.com You can read more about me my program and if you'd like to connect, I'd love to hear from you.
Philip Pape 58:55
Awesome. So I will include your Instagram and website in the show notes so listeners can find you. And Allie, thank you so much for bringing the fire and the energy today. Absolutely. Thank
Allie Cass 59:05
you so much for having me.
Philip Pape 59:06
It was awesome. If you've been inspired by today's interview, and are ready to take action and build momentum on your health and fitness journey, just schedule a free 30 minute nutrition momentum call with me using the link in my show notes. I promise not to sell or pitch you on anything, but I will help you gain some perspective and guidance so we can get you on the right track toward looking and feeling your best
Ep 78: Stress-Free Macro Tracking, Nerding Out on Metabolism, and Fitness Science with Greg Nuckols
Today I'm sitting down with Greg Nuckols to talk about lifting, MacroFactor, and science. You'll learn what he's been up to lately, his take on lifting and life, and all things MacroFactor. We'll also explore how to be consistent and maybe even enjoy tracking your nutrition, incorporating scientific research into your health and fitness routine, and other words of wisdom.
Today I'm sitting down with Greg Nuckols to talk about lifting, MacroFactor, and science. You'll learn what he's been up to lately, his take on lifting and life, and all things MacroFactor. We'll also explore how to be consistent and maybe even enjoy tracking your nutrition, incorporating scientific research into your health and fitness routine, and other words of wisdom.
Greg Nuckols lifts weights, writes about lifting weights, and coaches people who want to get better at lifting weights.
With an MA in Exercise and Sports Science and three all-time powerlifting world records, he co-hosts the Stronger by Science Podcast. It's a must-listen for enthusiasts who love exploring cutting-edge research on lifting, nutrition, and more, delivered with a unique blend of humor and world-building.
Greg is, of course, the co-founder and Head of Content at Stronger by Science and the co-founder of MacroFactor, the food-logging app that I use personally and can’t stop talking about.
Finally, Greg has been a pivotal inspiration in my personal journey of health and this very podcast.
__________
Book a FREE 30-minute call with Philip here.
__________
Today you’ll learn all about:
[1:56] Balancing personal and professional life
[4:33] Current personal lifting routine and goals
[8:04] Bringing fun into life and fitness pursuits
[14:03] Update on the Feats of Strength
[16:00] Trends in powerlifting
[24:18] Listener stories and their impact on the MacroFactor team
[31:17] Progress toward achieving MacroFactor's vision
[33:52] Addressing common objections to tracking nutrition and weight
[40:45] One of the things that set MacroFactor apart from other tracking apps
[50:11] Tony shares what he likes about Philip and the Wits & Weights community
[50:56] Underrated features and usage tips for MacroFactor
[56:15] Personal experience with long-term fat loss using MacroFactor
[1:19:29] Selection process for topics on Stronger by Science
[1:21:14] Personal methods for staying updated with the latest research
[1:24:20] The value of the MacroFactor community
[1:35:35] Learn more about Greg
[1:37:46] Outro
Episode resources:
The MacroFactor app (use code WITSANDWEIGHTS to get 2 weeks free)
FREE 30-minute results breakthrough session with Philip ⬇️
https://witsandweights.com/free-call
Learn about 1-on-1 coaching ⬇️
https://witsandweights.com/coaching
Ask Philip anything ⬇️
IG: @witsandweights
Email: philip@witsandweights.com
Podcast: Q&A voicemail
🥩 Download Ultimate Macros Guide and 50 High-Protein Recipes here
🫙 Get high-quality 1st Phorm supplements here
👏 ENJOY THE SHOW?
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Transcript
Greg Nuckols 00:00
You do need some system to at least get a rough idea of how much energy you're burning per day in order to do that, because like if you're, you're going to be in a deficit. That's, that means eating fewer calories and you're burning it and you need to have a rough idea of how many calories you're burning.
Philip Pape 00:20
Welcome to the Wits & Weights podcast. I'm your host, Philip pape, and this twice a week podcast is dedicated to helping you achieve physical self mastery by getting stronger. Optimizing your nutrition and upgrading your body composition will uncover science backed strategies for movement, metabolism, muscle and mindset with a skeptical eye on the fitness industry. So you can look and feel your absolute best. Let's dive right in. Wits & Weights community Welcome to another episode of the Wits & Weights Podcast. Today I'm sitting down with Greg knuckles to talk about lifting macro factor and science. You'll learn what he's been up to lately, his take on lifting and life and all things macro factor. We'll explore how to be consistent maybe how to enjoy tracking your food, how to incorporate research into your health and fitness routine and other words of wisdom he might have for us. Greg knuckles, lifts weights, writes about lifting weights and coaches, people who want to get better at lifting weights. He has an MA in exercise and sports science and has held three all time world records in powerlifting. He also co hosts the stronger by science podcast, which you should absolutely have in your feed if you enjoy digging into the latest research on lifting nutrition and many other topics delivered with a unique blend of humor. And I'll say world building. Greg is of course the co founder and head of content at stronger by science and the co founder of macro factor, the food logging app that I use personally and can't stop talking about. And finally Greg has been a pivotal inspiration in my personal journey of health and this very podcast. So Greg, thank you very much for coming on the show. Thanks for having me. So first question really is how do you do it? All right, because you have a lot going on. You're very engaged online, you've spoken about the need to balance things. And I think that ties nicely with stress management, mindfulness. I know it's mental health awareness month and all those things. shed some light on how you balance everything right now. Oh, yeah. That
Greg Nuckols 02:16
that that maybe wasn't the best framing device for this question. The whole the whole mindfulness and mental health awareness. You'll know, I mean, I work a lot. I mean, there's a look, man,
Philip Pape 02:32
I ask these questions, because it's selfish for me to I'm like, What do you how do you do it? Because I need to figure it out. It's all good. Yeah.
Greg Nuckols 02:37
See, I mean, I work a lot, just a lot of hours. And yeah, I mean, I don't know. Like, so two things, just to kind of I wasn't gonna say did not necessarily like disabuse you of the notion that I get a lot done, but just like some, some considerations that make it a little bit easier. One is that, like, I, I pay people to do things that I used to do that are relatively time consuming, but aren't necessarily as like public facing. So you know, like, I externally got less done when I still responded to like, all of the support emails for the various businesses I run, but now we have people handling the support emails for us, like, you know, just little things like that, like, take, take some of the administrative tasks off my plate. Speaking of which, the person who does support emails for stronger by science and macro factor is Adam Fisher. And Adam is incredible. I can't can't speak highly, highly enough of Batum. Um, and yeah, I mean, I'm married, but no kids. And so, no, that's a large obligation that a lot of people have that I that I don't, which allows me to work more, get more done. But yeah, I mean, you know, so there's some, like, kind of like structural and lifestyle factors in play. And yeah, beyond that, I get a lot done because I work.
Philip Pape 04:30
I asked, I know there's a lot of like, entrepreneurs probably listen to this show, you know, guys who want to live but are super busy. And I get it, like, you've always been really responsive, even to me, early on, I remember asking you questions, whether it was macro factor lifting thing or whatever, I'm like, wow, Greg actually got back to me personally, you know, and which was kind of cool. So I and you had that phase of your business and now you're in a different phase. It just came to mind, you know, just just seeing everything you do. So what about what about your lifting right now? What does that routine look like? And are you going after specific goals for Uh,
Greg Nuckols 05:00
yeah, not not as much lifting these days, honestly, you know, still still hitting the upper body pretty hard. I had been having hip and back issues for a while. The back issues that was like an old freak injury happened when I was like, 16. Like, I know how to manage that work around it, like that was fine. But then maybe like, three years ago, I started having hip issues as well. And I think I can trace it back to when I started playing more basketball again. So I so I, before I got really into powerlifting, basketball was my primary sport. And I was I was quite good at it. But the last time I had played pretty seriously, I was like, 160 pounds and trying to play the same game at like, 250 is I did at 160. A little bit tougher on my body, because I played like a pretty a pretty, like, violent, like slashing, like offensive game, like a lot of change of directions. fast acceleration, deceleration, which, you know, like the forces you're you're putting on your body scale with the body mass you have and just the amount of force you're capable of developing. And so I was a lot heavier and a lot stronger. And I don't think my right hip labrum was was ready to deal with that. So, okay, yeah, I
Philip Pape 06:37
mean, I can relate, I can relate right hip, exact same thing.
Greg Nuckols 06:40
Yeah. So it's, it's unfortunate. It's, it's put my my lower body training, not unpause. But like, kind of on the backburner. I mean, I don't want to exacerbate it and make it worse. So I'm probably gonna have to get just like a little laparoscopic surgery this winter. Okay,
Philip Pape 07:01
so it's a torn labrum where they might have to like do the screen or whatever it is. Yeah,
Greg Nuckols 07:05
they did like a like a MRI arthrogram type of thing. And they said it looked like torn labrum maybe a little cyst on the head of of my femur. Maybe some FAI in the mix as well. So, yeah, like that hip, overall is just like kind of janky. So I'll, I'll probably get into lower body trading a bit more seriously again, after that, we'll get cleaned up. But yeah, I mean, upper body is still hitting it hard, but like pretty, pretty boring stuff. I guess. Like just sort of like bodybuilding type of stuff.
Philip Pape 07:46
Yeah, yeah, no, I get it having to work around these things. I am convinced that my hip issue came from hip thrusts because they were so new to me like this is like a couple years ago, after getting back from my own back surgery, and getting back into lifting and just hitting everything really hard again, which is always the best thing to do. But yeah, so basketball. Do you have a dog in the race for the finals? Or for the what's going on now? Man, I
Greg Nuckols 08:10
really hope the heat knock off the Celtics. Okay, all right. I would love either. Yo, get your Jimmy to get a title of the two. I don't know. So if I was like scripting the NBA, which currently no one is like the the writer strike is happening. And I guess they're just like actually playing the games these days. That's a joke. That's a joke. TV writers don't script the NBA. It is of course, the refs as we learned from Tim Donaghy. kind of joking about that as well. Although watching some of the playoff games, it's i It makes me skeptical. You know? Yeah,
Philip Pape 08:55
I'm with you, man. Especially when it doesn't go your way. You're just like some of those.
Greg Nuckols 09:00
Scott foster Chris Paul games are pretty pretty wacky. I think that's probably just like personal malice, instead of necessarily trying to like swing the bat in lines, but who knows? Who knows.
Philip Pape 09:12
So you like the heat or you want the Celtics to get knocked off?
Greg Nuckols 09:17
I want the Celtics to get knocked off. So that was a very long preamble of saying if if everything went right, I don't I don't have that much faith in the heats roster like I think I think they're, I think they're a good team, but I think that they just like perennially overperform and I think Erik Spoelstra is a really really great playoff coach, but I I'm just skeptical that they have the talent to keep going back to the finals year over year, but I think I think the nuggets have that. So I kind of want the heat to get through. So like in my perfect scenario, the heat give By the Celtics win the finals. And then I think I think Denver is building a juggernaut. So I think if the Heat won this year, the the nuggets have a championship, where there'll be contending for the next three or four years. So I want both of those teams to win a title. And for that to happen, I think the heat winning this this year would probably give it the the highest probability of both teams eventually winning one but in my non perfect scenario, I would want Denver to win this year just I just love yo kitch man, he's a pleasure to watch.
Philip Pape 10:35
Yeah, yeah. Well, before we started recording, you said, you know, if someone had a dog you'd like them more. Well, I grew up in South Florida so I've always been a heat fan. So that's that's the right answer. Greg.
Greg Nuckols 10:49
They got something special going down there. Erik Spoelstra might be the most underrated just like single person in the NBA. Like yeah, they're the the whole thing about the heat having like four undrafted players playing heavy minutes like I think that's that storylines a little bit overblown in the media but I mean they do man just just looking at at the talent that they have on their roster compared to certainly the Celtics who they're playing now. And when up three Oh on but also just the teams that have been eliminated to this point. Like I think I think that the undrafted players, they got word definitely like diamonds in the rough that had been underrated in that in the reason they went undrafted, like you know they're good players. But yeah, I just think the heat have in a general sense just less talent on their roster. Yeah, what a great teams they've been playing against, but they they just win like Spoelstra gets so much talent out of them. And I mean, this isn't even the most, like obscene ly bad roster he's been working with and getting production out of like, I remember after, after LeBron went back to Cleveland, in Wave retired, like, those are two incredibly valuable players that they got nothing back from, like LeBron just walked in free agency. And, and Wade retired. And Bosh was like starting to get some age on him, like he lost a snap as well. So like, if you have to star players like you have to, like supermax contract slots, and those players leave and you get nothing in return. That is the kiss of death for just about every franchise. You know, you're looking at a decade of purgatory before you come back for sure. And the heat had like one down year and then we're I think, man, my memory is hazy, but I think they were I think they I think like the second year after LeBron left, they they either had like a 51 win season or we're on a 50 win pace, before Vin Bosch had to retire because he was getting blood clots in his legs this randomly. But yeah, I mean that that was a roster of Scrubs that he either led to the playoffs or got very close to the playoffs. And then yeah, your third star player also just has to retire prematurely. You get nothing in return for that. And give it like another another two years and they're good again, like that's, that's wizardry, and I think like the GM in front office are very smart. But I think a lot of that is just Erik Spoelstra being an unbelievably good coach, and just being able to get wins out of any roster he's working with.
Philip Pape 13:42
Yeah, yeah, we'll see what happens, man. We'll see. I don't know when this show comes out, and probably still be in the finals. Few weeks from now. So we'll see how it goes. Greg.
Greg Nuckols 13:50
Also, I am very sensitive to the fact that this isn't a basketball pie. Oh, no, it's
Philip Pape 13:55
cool. You know, it sounds good. It
Greg Nuckols 13:56
sounds good tennis finals are coming up. I've been watching a lot of basketball. I'm very much in that headspace.
Philip Pape 14:03
Yeah, well, okay, so since we're talking about high performers out there, one of the segments I've been missing for a while on your show is the feats of strength and I was just curious if you knew any lately, that people should be aware of,
Greg Nuckols 14:15
um, man, the I don't have the numbers right on the tip of my tongue, but I think the nuttiest performance that I've seen in probably at least the last year maybe last two years was Hey Zeus, Allah viruses total that he put together at at the Sheffield. I mean, he he beat the total record pretty handily looked like he had more in the tank on certainly his deadlift. And I mean, he's, he's still young, and super heavies generally peak, like late When he's early 30s He's what like 24. Crazy. So that performance itself was freaking who's sorry, I cut you off. We're
Philip Pape 15:09
talking about his total. No, no, no, it's total 11 52.5. That was in March, right? Yeah. Yeah. And it was a big jump. Yeah. From, like, 4%. More. Yeah. Awesome.
Greg Nuckols 15:20
So that was, in and of itself a nutty performance and is just, I think, I think just like an in, like a, like an appetizer to what is to come from him. Like I just just putting together a total like that at his age is, is bonkers. And I expect, like, I wouldn't be surprised if he push the record another. I mean, at least 50 kilos. I mean, maybe 100 kilos over the next, like, eight years or so. Like, it's, it's like the number the numbers themselves are crazy. But then what?
Philip Pape 16:00
Yeah, what I mean, so what do you think explain Is it is it genetics is what explains this, when you have the step changes? I mean, just in general, in the history of mankind going with these huge, huge leaps? Yeah, I mean, I
Greg Nuckols 16:12
think it's, I think it's mostly genetics. So one of the one of the trends you see, one of the trends you're seeing in powerlifting. Now, and historically you see in, in various sports, is that I think that there's just kind of like an innate human desire to chalk things up to kind of like, like, accessible progress. And by that, I mean, the idea that, like you see records going up, and you're like, oh, that's because training practices have meaningfully improved nutrition has meaningfully improved. Recovery practices of meaningfully improved, whatever. And so, you know, like, we can can go figure out what that is. And then yeah, even if I'm not as gifted as the people who are winning World Championships, I can like benefit from those improvements. And, you know, that's, that's going to make me better, that's going to make the whole sport better. And like, I think there, I think there might be like, the tiniest little bit of truth to that, but I don't think that's most of it. In general, what happens is just records go up, because talent pools get broader and deeper. So if you compare powerlifting, like, like, performance in the sport of powerlifting, for like, the median, lifter, or even like the 80th 90th, percentile lift, or whatever, it like really hasn't changed. Like at all. So if you look at what like typical performances looked like in like, 2012 2013, compare them to what typical performances look like today. It's the same, but records have gone way, way up. And I think that's mostly just because the athlete pool has gotten way, way bigger. And when you're talking about records and champions, you're that's a game of outlier hunting, right?
Philip Pape 18:12
Yeah, I was gonna say it's like the tail, the normal curve, you're just pushing it out a little bit by having this wider pool.
Greg Nuckols 18:16
Yeah. So so if you have, if you have like 100 people in the sport, you'll you'll find people who are two standard deviations from the mean, you might even get lucky and find someone three standard deviations from the mean, then you get 10,000 people in a sport. And now like, there's a pretty decent chance you'll you'll have at least one or two people who are like four standard deviations from the mean. And as the population gets bigger and bigger, you just are able to find freakier and freakier. Freaks, because that that's who holds records. And yeah, the sport of powerlifting has exploded since like, 2014 or so. And so I think we're seeing now, yeah, just people who are bigger genetic outliers than the people who are winning a decade ago. So I think, I think that's part of it. And I think part of it is well is with the growth of the sport, you also see people getting into it younger. So like when when I first started competing in 2012, was it 2012 or 2013? Doesn't matter. One of those. Like, the there weren't many youth competitors in powerlifting like youth teenage It was basically a sport that people would get into when I mean like a lot of them were like ex athletes or whatever. So like I played football in high school didn't make a college squad or like I played like d3, college football. And now I like lifting weights. I want to excuse to keep lifting weights. I'm pretty strong. Hey, there's the sport powerlifting I'll give it a shot like that used to be the standard way people got into the sport. So now like you are seeing more more youth and teenage lifters, just competing, like getting into the sport, either directly or their school just has like a really good strength and conditioning program for basketball, football, whatever the coaches like maybe tell the kids about powerlifting. And they do some, like powerlifting style training in the offseason, like you'd like much more so than they would have done a decade ago. And so yeah, I mean, like, there are like, I think it like it takes it takes time to get really good in any sport, when there's also just kind of like, natural physiological ages when people should be the best at stuff. And I think if you went back 1520 years, like most powerlifters just got into the sport too late to ever hit their true peak. Like, you know, like most of the people who were the best in the sport were like in their mid 30s, which mid 30s is an old by any means, but like it's old for sports. And I think I think weightlifting, like Olympic weightlifting is a really good point of comparison, because it's, it's another sport where competitive success is largely determined by just like how strong you are. But it's also an older sport, and it's much bigger and much more competitive globally. So there's, I think, I think it's a good representation of where like a robust, very mature strength sport kind of ends up and the trends you should expect to see. And yeah, like, like weightlifters generally peak between like 24, and like 29. And like, you know, there might still be a couple people who are adding a couple kilos to their total as they get into their 30s. But usually, they add some kilos to their total, but also bump up a weight class and maybe wind up a little bit less competitive than they were before. But yeah, like that's, that's the trend you generally tend to see. So I think that for like the best of the best in powerlifting, like a decade ago, they just got into the sport a decade too late, and wound up really, really strong in their early to mid 30s, but not as strong as they would have ended up if they would have started training a decade prior and been able to kind of like, hit their prime and like their late 20s or so. Yeah. So I think I think that's a consideration. But yeah, I mean, I think it's, I think it's mostly just the talent pool thing. And like, like I mentioned before, you see that in like every sport. Like when, whenever the total pool of competitors increases, or whenever the sport like a sport can find a new particularly well suited pool of competitors. It tends to do a lot better.
Philip Pape 23:04
Yeah, no, I'm glad I asked that. Because this is this is like when you talk about science and correlations and all that just the idea that it's going to favor the best of the best. And so you widen it the that best kind of keeps, keeps pushing it even if people think there are other reasons behind it, you know, because I know in the running world when they were breaking all those records for decades, it was ascribed to things like shoes and technology and training. But at the end of the day, there's probably a lot of what you're saying behind that as well.
Greg Nuckols 23:32
Depending on the distance in the area you're talking about, yeah.
Philip Pape 23:36
Other drugs as well. Yeah, okay. Yeah, sure.
Greg Nuckols 23:39
There's a reason why there are a lot of like middle school records that are still on the books that have been there a long time or ones we're just now like, barely getting broken that were set in like the early 90s. But yeah,
Philip Pape 23:52
yeah, got it. You know, a lot of us wish we started lifting in our 20s. And like, for me, it wasn't until I did CrossFit for about 10 years, and that, you know, just tiny bit, moved the needle from from sedentary and then finally got into about 2020. So all right, you want to talk about macro factor. Can we do that? Yeah, let's alright. So just for those listening, who haven't heard me mentioned about 500 times on the show so far, because this is like, this is the episode 70 something here. You know, it's, it's something I use my clients use it. I'm an affiliate, just full disclosure, because I'm a fanboy anyway, so why not? And Greg gave me the opportunity. So I'm a little bit biased, but I use it personally. And I've tried tracking food over the years, probably for a decade or more, many times, many times, and many of us have done that. And every time I just hated it. It was tedious. It didn't work. The app sucked, you know, and it wasn't until macro factor came out. I think I heard you guys talking about it on the podcast and like, I've got to try that out. I did it and pretty quickly within days probably I was like this is different. You know, it's helping me not hate tracking. It's fast. It's easy. I don't have to think about it even and I got into very consistent routine that did change. changed my life. And I've talked about this on the podcast that just getting control over the food because I had already started to learn to lift properly. And I knew how to gain weight. But I didn't know how to control, you know, the ups and downs, and then logically led to being able to get healthier. And then logically to this moment talking to Greg knuckles on my podcast. So my first question for you is, how often do you hear stories like that? And and how do they make you feel being behind the team of macro factor?
Greg Nuckols 25:28
Yeah, we we hear stories like that all the time. And they, they make me feel very good. Yeah, so So to your point. So I think that with with food logging and nutrition tracking, I think that there are a lot of things that people know they should do, or maybe even just want to do. But the the likelihood of them doing it, and sticking with it scales nonlinearly with the amount of friction that they experienced doing it. And so like that, that may sound like mumbo jumbo. But so just to make it practical,
Philip Pape 26:11
and we're all nerds here, so are my listeners, self selected community.
Greg Nuckols 26:16
So, um, yeah, so like, let's say someone wants to start lifting weights. And let's say there's only one gym in their town, and they they currently live in a place where the gyms like a 15 minute drive for like a 15 minute walk or, or whatever, like they can, they can get to the gym, easily in a relatively short amount of time. Not very much friction, they start going to the gym, it's great. But then they, you know, like, let's say they move, like, their lease runs out, they just buy a new house, whatever, there's still just one gym in their town. But now it's like a, like a 40 minute drive, because they moved to the other side of town, their willingness to keep going to the gym, because the amount of friction to actually get there has increased pretty substantially. You know, their, their attendance for workouts might go from like, 90% to like 50%. And then they're like, Well, I'm already been inconsistent. And may, you know, the types of reasons that you can use to justify not going to the gym gets a gets a little longer, like you start with a consistent habit. And you're like, yeah, it's it's a longer drive, but I'll keep making it. And maybe that goes well for like a week or two. But then you're like, yeah, man, like, I've got some other thing going on tonight. Like, I'll just miss this one workout. And then, you know, a month down the line. It's like, I'm just tired after work. I don't feel like driving. It's like, fuck it. I'm not doing it.
Philip Pape 27:47
Like the balance of willpower and resistance has just shifted toward resistance.
Greg Nuckols 27:50
Yeah, yeah. So you know, if that drive went from, like, 15 minutes to 20 minutes, slight increase in friction, but like, you know, maybe not enough that it's really going to affect things. But then, at some point, it's like you almost like flip a switch, where the amount of friction required to do what you want to do goes from being a reasonable amount that you can definitely stomach and are totally fine with to as soon as it like, crosses that barrier. Now, it's like, it's too much like I'm not going to do it, or at least not as consistently. And so, when we were building macro factor, we had that general concept in mind when when thinking about the food lager. Because I do think that that is the sort of dynamic in play when it comes to consistently tracking your food for a lot of people. Like, yeah, I think that people like pretty consistently report is like, I don't like food logging. It's, it's annoying, like it takes time, like it adds a little bit of friction to every meal you eat, because you got to pull out your phone and take a little bit to track it. But we were very mindful about making macro factors food logger as efficient as possible and taking as few steps and as little time as possible to do like any login related behavior, just to reduce that friction a little bit. And so like, it may sound like a small thing, but you know, if you can pull out your phone and log your meal in 30 seconds, it's like, okay, like that's, that's pretty chill, you know, it is still a little friction, it would still be slightly easier just to just not log your food, but if it's like 30 seconds, or whatever. But then if it's like two minutes, that doesn't sound like that big of a deal. Much like a 15 minute versus 40 minute drive doesn't sound like that big of a deal. But then when it's like man, I'm putting something in my mouth four or five times per day. It takes time every time especially if you're on like a free version of a freemium app, and you've got to like X out of two ads every time you try to like add us snack? Yeah. You know, it's it's not like it's not like any of the food loggers out there are so inefficient that it takes like 10 minutes to log a meal. But like, there there is I think for a lot of people a palpable difference between like 30 seconds and a minute.
Philip Pape 30:15
It's a huge difference. I just tell you personally, it is a huge difference everybody I've worked with been like, Whoa, it's like, you know,
Greg Nuckols 30:22
it's, it sounds like it should be a very trivial thing. But I think that it's that it's very important, like, if you can, if you can shave off just like two or three steps, and like 10 seconds from the time it takes to log food. I think that that helps a lot of people get from the, the side of the barrier where it's so much friction, that it's just going to be onerous, and they're not going to stick with it to kind of the other side of that friction barrier, where, hey, like, now it's chill, and this is something I already want to do. And so like this, this little bit of friction I'm experiencing is something I'm totally willing to take on board, because of the benefits I get from this.
Philip Pape 31:02
Yeah, it's to the point where the community is so trained in this idea that when a new feature comes out, that is like an extra tap, you'll know about it pretty quickly. It'll say, wait a minute, the friction here is just tight is not that perfectly optimal, almost zero like we're used to. Now, because you you wrote about the vision for the app that you you want people to log in to to achieve their nutrition goals without hassle without stress, which is kind of tied into this. So continuing with this theme, how far along are you in that vision? I mean, what is there still some more big things that you're trying to solve to get there without revealing secrets? Of course?
Greg Nuckols 31:37
Yeah, I mean, there's, I don't know, like this. This is also something that's, that's nonlinear, I guess. So the, the amount of things that we want to do just the length of our roadmap. I don't like like, we're going to we're going to keep adding to it. Like currently, though, if we just said, Hey, nope, everything. It just take our current roadmap, we're never going to take another new feature request, we're just going to do the things we have planned now. I mean, it's probably five years of stuff we want to keep doing. But I think like, you know, we we prioritized our roadmap, and I think a not stupid way. And so you focus first on the things that have the largest impact. So in terms of how much the rest of the roadmap will affect, like user experience, and giving people like the the core features they want and delivering them and delivering on them? Well, you know, I think we're maybe like a fifth of the way through all of the things we want to do with the app, but probably 80% of the way through kind of like the kind of like marginal utility that will be delivered by like, increasing features and whatnot. So yeah, kind of like a kind of like a Pareto thing, you know?
Philip Pape 33:09
Yeah. Although you never know, right? Because there I can tell you as a as a coach, like a desktop or a coaching version that open up huge, you know, a huge market action. Oh, yeah.
Greg Nuckols 33:19
Yeah, yeah. So I'm thinking about just kind of like the typical user. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Like, we do want to, like add utility for, like coaches to manage their nutrition clients directly through macro factor. Which, you know, like, yeah, that will be like a huge thing for coaches. But that's kind of like what I was talking about where like when when we add that it will be huge for a a minority of our users. And fair enough, most of our users won't won't even know. That exists.
Philip Pape 33:53
Yeah. Okay. So, regarding the objections, people often have to tracking I wanted to touch on a few more, because we mentioned the time for it. In macro factor, there's also the way it flags your data, or I should say the lack the lack of any punishment, or shaming or whatever you want to call it, that's some apps have with red colors and things like that. There's that feature. And then there's also another one that comes up a lot is, is how often you have to weigh yourself. And and when even if the app didn't exist, you know, I think it's a good idea to do that. And now, I have more clarity behind that as to how the app does it with the moving trend, but talk about some of those other aspects.
Greg Nuckols 34:33
Yeah, so starting with our kind of, like, shame free UI approach. So with a lot of apps, you know, if you say, Hey, I have a goal of eating 2000 calories a day or whatever. If you go to like if you eat something and it puts you at like 2010 calories. Some apps will just like give a give a pop up where it's just like Hey, warning, you're gonna we're about to go over your calorie goal. And like most of them, it's kind of like the, maybe the font will change, certainly the color will change, it'll like turn red, kind of like a, a bright indicator of like, hey, you've, you've done something wrong, like you've, you've fucked up in some way. In we, we don't do that in macro factor. And that's, that's, like, partially a philosophical thing. But it's also like, partially, like an evidence based thing as well. So the philosophical thing is like, I don't, I don't, I don't, I don't think it's good to like, be be dicks to people, I guess. Right.
Philip Pape 35:46
Like, I think there's a human element to it behind this. I agree. Yeah,
Greg Nuckols 35:50
like, if if something makes you feel bad, and it doesn't need to make you feel bad for it to help you accomplish whatever you're trying to accomplish. I think just your default posture should be hey, let's let's not make people feel bad unnecessarily. But then also from, like, the evidence based side of it, like shaming based approaches to well, like, like weight loss in particular, but just like behavior change, in general, just have a piss poor track record, like they, they don't work. Because like one of the big, one of the big barriers people face with with a lot of the seventh and like, I'm going to be speaking in like, a weight loss context. But really, just like any sort of, like lifestyle behavior change type of deal, one of the big hurdles you need to overcome is, is lack of self efficacy. Because like, most of this stuff is, like, it's not easy, but it's simple, you know, and if there's like a simple thing people can do to accomplish some sort of change that they want to see in their life. If they have pretty high self efficacy, like if they believe they can do it, and believe they can pull it off, and the steps laid out in front of them aren't, like, if you don't like unnecessarily complicate something that should be simple. That does set someone up on a pretty good path towards success. But like you do, you do have to clear that self efficacy barrier. And so like, shame based approaches to, like I said, weight loss in particular, but like, behavior change in general, tend to show that like approaches that take like a shame based orientation, like, ultimately do more harm than good. Because ultimately, what you're doing is you're validating someone's pre existing low self efficacy, right? Like, if if they are trying something that's that's new to them, that they already perceive will be a challenge. Or maybe they're they're attempting something that they've tried and failed at before. They're going into that with low self efficacy. And so if you just have like UI elements that like flag and scream at someone, like, Hey, you
Philip Pape 38:10
failed.
Greg Nuckols 38:13
We have low self efficacy, and you're just validating for them. Yeah, like, you suck at this. You're bad at this. Yeah. And that's a recipe for failure. And like I said, I don't just say that on a purely philosophical level, like they're like, there's, there's research on this, like, it just doesn't work. And so like, even independent of the app space, like that is something that that bugs me, just kind of like society wide, like in the media and the way people talk to each other. Like, there is I think, a lot of kind of, like shaming directed at people who are like trying to lose weight change their body composition. Like I mean, I don't know not to not to, like get to, I don't know, like, like, political or whatever, but like, like fat phobia is a very real thing. And I think if someone hasn't been fat, they haven't experienced it. And so they're like no like it it's not real or it doesn't matter it's like no you're you're full of shit. And so yeah, I think that there's I don't know I think a lot of people in the fitness industry think that like ooh no like the way we need to go about this is like with a with a tough love approach. Like say, hey, like, You're fat that's bad. It's because you're lazy and make bad choices. And it's gonna kill you and so like you need to lose weight like it's it's just purely negative framing. And yeah, like like shaming people for being in the position they're in and the choices they make and saying like i It's because you have like low willpower, you're a piece of shit whatever. Like, even if, even if the You're a piece of shit thing isn't stated like it's It's fella. Yeah, for sure. That's that's subtext. And yeah, it's like, I don't know, that's, that's what people have been. That's, that's the approach people have been taking to try to get people to lose weight since, like the 70s. And obesity rates keep going up. And so there's a bit of like, you know, definition of insanity is doing the same thing and expecting a different result. Like, we've we've tried shame based approaches to get people to lose weight and change their lifestyle for fucking decades now. And it's not working, but people still seem to think that it's going to work, which, yeah, yeah,
Philip Pape 40:42
you got no argument for me? Not for sure. I definitely take take that positive approach. And I wonder with some of these other apps, if I'm sure. It's not always intentional, I think there's like a gamification aspect of it. They're trying to induce with the, you know, just like the dopamine response on X apps, like, Are you addicted to a game or something? It's almost like the opposite of, you know, like you said, shaming, but not necessarily trying to do that. Right. And you've discovered that that's what happens. And I think a lot of people use macro factor will say, this is refreshing, because it's the first thing that doesn't seem to have done that. Well,
Greg Nuckols 41:16
I think, I think that there's a bit of a chicken and egg scenario, where I think that so I think that a lot of people download a nutrition app, because they feel like they need to keep their nutrition in check. They feel like I do have a tendency to overeat. And I want a tool that will either keep me from doing that, or like help me keep myself from doing that. And if if someone has already, like been kind of in the weight loss space, and has attempted diets before, they're there, I think, I think there's like a little bit of Stockholm Syndrome, like you've, since every, since everything you've like, consumed up to this point, is framed in a negative way of like, hey, like, you suck, but like, here's this thing you can do that will like make you better. Like, I think I think they've like already internalized that. And so they just like, expect that from the tools that they use. So, you know, in a general sense, it's, it's probably not good, it's probably not actually going to help them accomplish the goals they have. But it is behaving in the way that they expect it to behave. Because sure, like they do, like it anticipate and expect to be treated like that. And they think that that's how, how like that feedback should be delivered, because it has generally been delivered and kind of like a negative framing up to that point, you know. And so I think that I think that it's like, I certainly don't think it's malicious. Absolutely not. But I don't necessarily think it's gamification. I think it's, I think it's like meeting users expectations. But I think those expectations have been set by negative experiences, and maybe, like breaking user expectations would be the better way to go about it. Whereas, okay, you, you think that you want this app to shame you. But like, what if it did it? I think if you give the app not shaming you, it's a shot, you'll actually find that you prefer that. And it's actually helpful.
Philip Pape 43:42
Yeah. And it's, it's a selling point of it, but sometimes hard to get across until you use it, right? Because you're like, What do you mean? Oh, now I see what you mean, when it's all it's telling you is here's how much you're over under. But that's it just gives you data. And you know, there's nothing else to kind of beat you over the head. Your failures. Yeah.
Greg Nuckols 43:59
So that's one element of it. Another element of it is. I think that I think that, that that just being kind of like the default UI design fails to consider a lot of just kind of, like practical considerations, I guess. So it kind of it kind of sets it sets of binari, where it's like, Hey, if you're under your calorie target, or under this particular nutrient target, that's good. But if you if you go over, whether it's by like one calorie or 500, it's bad, like it kind of like draws that line and line in the sand. And just from like, a purely like practical perspective, that also just doesn't tend to make much sense. So, you know, if I'm, like, let's say someone's trying to lose weight and they're trying to lose a pound a week. That's a rate of weight loss. That's probably going to be Pretty, pretty tolerable, pretty reasonable for most folks, they're not going to be just too ravenously hungry, but they're not going to be making progress. So slowly, they get frustrated, like a like, whatever. Like, that's just what we'll kind of use as a point of reference. So if there's a warning indicator, and let's say that that comes out to this person, like a calorie target of 2000 calories a day, just to just to make the the example easier. So you know, if that's the scenario, and like, hey, 2000 calories a day, that's gonna help you lose a pound a week. But you're kind of putting a binary warning at 2000. So if that's if that's someone's goal, and they only like 1000 calories, that's like a 1500 calorie deficit. And like, yeah, they're going to lose weight pretty quickly, but they're also going to feel like shit all the time, and probably burn out pretty quickly. So like, if if you're, if you're going to be having a warning, why don't you just keep the number read until they eat enough calories that they're somewhat close to their calorie goal for the day? Like, you know, I think 1000 calories would be worse for their goal than 2001 calories, you
Philip Pape 46:15
know, you're saying a range around the target or so.
Greg Nuckols 46:18
Yeah. And then then on the flip side, like, yeah, if if 2000 calories is the perfect calorie goal for you? And we 2050 That's great. Like, that's, that's a great date. And that's now really close to calorie deficit, it's a 450 calorie deficit, and you know, how much the rate you'll lose weight at with a 450 calorie deficit? Pretty fucking close to a pound a week, you know, like, it's like that. That's still good, you know?
Philip Pape 46:48
Yeah. Not to mention the tolerance for even the accuracy of the numbers, which is, yeah,
Greg Nuckols 46:52
yeah. And so functionally, it's saying any number, like under your calorie target is equally good like that. It's not it's not explicitly saying that, but that is kind of like the implication of that UI element. And any number above your target is equally bad. And so yeah, like that, that doesn't make much sense. For a lot of the goals, people have, like, I do think that it's better to think of targets as a general range, where it's like, hey, if I'm one 200 calories under, that's great. If I'm one 200 calories over, that's also great. Like, you're, you're close, and as long as you're close, like you're, it's gonna be good enough for most goals to at least move you in the direction you're trying to move.
Philip Pape 47:39
Yeah, and on that point, and I'm sure you've seen a lot more data than I have. But I see individuals have their own level of variability in that range, right. So some people are very spot on. And some people vary by several 100 calories every day, but then they still hit the weekly number. It's just an individual thing. Yeah.
Greg Nuckols 47:56
Yeah. But then, like I said, so something else that we like, very, very frequently hear from from users is that those those like red numbers and negative UI elements, you know, much like they frame all like they passively communicate that all numbers below your goal are equally good. They tacitly communicate all numbers above your goal, or equally bad. So something we very, very frequently hear is it's like, oh, yeah, like, you know, the number turns red when I clear 2000 calories. So it's like, hey, this day is already a failure. So yeah, like, like, fuck it, I'm just gonna order a whole large pizza and down to six pack, you know? Whereas, like, if it went red, because they went from 2000 to 2050. Like, that's, that's good. And like, yeah, 2050 is a is a hell of a lot better than 6000 if your goal was 2000 calories a day to lose weight. But yeah, like, I think that, that just sort of like binary below is good over his bad framing, puts again, like, not everyone, and probably not even most people, but puts like a pretty significant minority of people in the mindspace of like, hey, if I went over the days already a failure, so like, fuck it. Like, I'm just gonna go completely off the rails, which I mean, that's, that's bad for your progress. Like,
Philip Pape 49:25
for sure, man. You know, what else tied into that? Yeah. And tied into that. Also, the idea that you when you do that, you sometimes cheat the numbers that you're entering? I've seen Yeah, too. You know, you're like, Well, I'm only gonna be 50 over so I'll just not log the 50. And I'll standard the number. Yeah.
Greg Nuckols 49:43
Yeah, like, yeah, so it also like incentivizes you to keep a bad data record for your CD, not yourself. Yeah. If you're trying to make decisions based on your data, it's probably good to have good data. Yeah, so Oh, yeah, we just wanted to avoid all of that for like philosophical reasons. But also just like practical reasons like it, it leads to better results to not shame people for the choices they make for sure.
50:12
My name is Tony, I'm a strength lift are my 40s Thank you to Phil and his Wits, & Weights community for helping me learn more about nutrition and how to implement better ideas into my strength training. Phil has a very, very good understanding of macros, and chemical compounds and hormones and all that and he's continuously learning. And that's what I like about Phil, he's got a great sense of humor, he's very relaxed, very easy to talk to one of the greatest things about Phil, in my view is that he practices what he preaches, he also works out with barbells, he trains heavy, not as heavy as me, but he trains heavy. So if you talk with him about getting in better shape, eating better, he's probably going to give you some good advice. And I would strongly recommend you talk with him, and he'll help you out. Thanks.
Philip Pape 50:56
Alright, so then the algorithms that are the expenditure algorithm, and then even the the weight trend, and it's public knowledge, how the weight trends calculated. But those two features, I think, are huge. Even the weight trend alone, which is just a simple, you know, equation, I haven't, I don't think I've seen it before macro factor consistently done in that way. And it's led to really kind of a healthy way to talk about weight when you talk about day to day fluctuations versus really what's happening in body over time, knowing that the fluctuations are going to be pretty variable along the way. And that's not what drives the fat loss. So maybe we talk about the weight side, and then these cool algorithms that help us understand our expenditure.
Greg Nuckols 51:40
Sure, yeah. So yeah, the weight, the weight turning algorithm is just a 21 or a 20 day exponentially weighted moving average, which does what we want it to. So yeah, so if, if, if someone were to ask you, like, hey, how much do you weigh? The the number on the scale today is a indicator with pretty high signal, but not like perfect signal. You know, like, if you've been, like, if you've been around 180 pounds just every day, and then you ate a lot of sodium last night, or whatever. So you wake up today, and you're 180 for the number on the scale is like reflective of how much you weigh, like 184 isn't like that much different than what 80 But it's not a perfect indicator. So yeah, like, you probably do want to consider historical information when answering that question. Because, yeah, for that individual for that example. Yeah, they're more 180 than they are 184. Like that the the number today is a bit of an outlier. But at the same time, like, trends do still matter. Like if, if you're your weight has been going up or whatever, you don't just want to take like a simple average of the last three weeks, because the trend is up. And if you just take a simple average, you're waiting older data just as heavily as you're waiting more recent data. And so you'd be like, Oh, no, like I'm I'm 181 When really like it was It has been like on on the ascent for a while, you know? So yeah, what exponential waiting does is it considers historical context, but it waits more recent data more heavily. And yeah, I think that's just a good a good logical approach to weight trending, both for answering that question of like, hey, about about how much do I weigh today, like you're you're trended weight, insofar as it differs from the number on the scale, like the trended number is probably closer to reality than just whatever the number on the scale says today. And then for the purpose of making nutrition adjustments, it does smooth out a lot of that like day to day variability, which which, which is pretty clutch. Because I think, mistake people make when they're trying to, like adjust their nutrition for themselves is weighing too infrequently. And when you do that, like your perception of your progress can be really, really heavily affected by just day to day measurement error. So like if someone just weighed once a week, say, and they weigh every Sunday, and that's just their thing. They weigh one week, they weigh the next week, they look at how much the number on the scale has changed between those two measurements and use that to say like, Hey, am I in an energy surplus deficit? Am I roughly at maintenance? And if I am in a surplus or deficit, how large is that surplus or deficit? Like there's going to be a lot of noise there. You know, like if, you know, if one week you were kind of coasting And along and you're around 181 Most days, and then you just happened to be light on Sunday, when you weighed in, you're like 179, like, two pounds. Variability like that's, that's a perfectly like normal degree of fluctuation. So yeah, you were around 181 For one week, but then the number on the scale says 179, then the next week, you're you're averaging around 180. But then when you step on the scale, you're just a little bit heavier than normal. So it's 181. So in real terms, yeah, you've probably lost about a pound week to week. But if you just compared to those single measurements, you'd say, Oh, shit, I gained a pound this week instead of kind of losing it. So yeah, like you do want to, like if you're, if you're using weight data to, like make make inferences about your nutrition approach, and how large of a surplus or deficit you're in. You do want to weigh more frequently, and you want to like, have an analytical approach that does consider all of the data instead of something that can be like pretty heavily influenced by just one or two, like aberrant, like, upwards or downwards fluctuates.
Philip Pape 56:16
Yeah, and I think weighing every day, too, if you just do it, it like anything else, you start forgetting about it, you just do it. And you can make it easier with like a smart scale or something like that. It's that's what I do. What about the other piece of that, then the algorithm, the expenditure algorithm is kind of a game changer. I think one of the adjustments come from also just being able to see that I mean, I've gone now through three or four phases I posted along, you know, stories about Reddit in the past, and just with the graphs, because it's so much fun to see that, hey, in a fat loss phase, you can lose 600 calories on your daily expenditure, even when your activity is the same, or at least you think it's the same, right? Yeah, tell us about that.
Greg Nuckols 56:53
Yeah, so the the expenditure algorithm itself is like, the the math behind it is like very complex and Harry, but the concept is very simple, which is that a given rate of weight gain or weight loss implies a calorie surplus or deficit of a particular magnitude. Because, you know, we have a pretty good idea of how much lean mass versus fat mass someone gains when they're in a surplus and lifting weights. And we have a pretty good idea of how much fat mass versus lean mass people lose, if they're in an in an energy deficit. We know the relative energy densities of fat tissue and lean tissue. And therefore if we observe a certain weight of rate of weight gain or weight loss, we can say, hey, this is about how much fat and lean tissue that corresponds to. And then here are the energy densities of those tissues. And therefore, we can get a pretty good idea of the relative size of your energy deficit or surplus. So that's step one. And you get that without any nutrition tracking whatsoever, if you just know the weight trending piece of it, you know, roughly how large of a surplus or deficit someone's in. And then if you also have nutrition data, you can just put those two pieces of information together, like, hey, based on my rate of weight loss, I see I'm in a deficit of about 300 calories a day. How much have I been eating over the last week to three, about 1600 calories per day? So eating 1600 I'm in a 300 calorie deficit. Oh, that must mean I'm burning around 1900 calories a day, you know. So that's, that's the basic concept. And like I said, the actual, like, mathematics and the implementation get gets pretty hairy. Because like, we've, we've got to do some stuff to make sure that like, numbers don't just get like, just like cuckoo and implausible when someone like eats way, way more or less than normal one day, or just like, doesn't log a day of eating or they eat way more or less than normal. Like there there are safeguards in place to guard against over corrections that would like necessarily happen if you just sort of like, naively accepted the numbers. And you didn't do any sort of like post data collection processing to share. It me, like make sure that things like correspond with with reality. Yeah, I mean, that's that's the basic concept. Yeah. Yeah, no, that's pretty cool. And like you said, I think it's, I think that it's very useful. Because ultimately, at the end of the day, gaining or losing weight does just come down to like being consistently in an energy deficit. surplus, and successfully gaining or losing weight, you know, so not like losing weight in a way that's going to just cause like a ton of muscle loss or just being so hungry and low energy, you feel like dogshit all the time and don't follow through, or like gaining weight at a rate that's like, you know, restrained and not just like dirty bulking and putting on three pounds of muscle and 30 pounds of fat. I think a lot of people do when they, when they try it. I certainly in its whole milk. Yeah. It's very fun. But then at the end of the process, it's like, well, maybe I should have gone about this differently. But, but yeah, so So you need to be in a surplus or deficit. And you need to have a way to know that not only is it a surplus or deficit, but it's like the magnitude of surplus or deficit that you want, and is likely to, like produce good results over the long term. And so ultimately, like, you do need some system to at least get a rough idea of how much energy you're burning per day in order to do that, because like, if you're, you're going to be in a deficit, that's, that means eating fewer calories than you're burning. So you need to have a rough idea of how many calories you're burning. And the approach macro factor uses is kind of like, like, like an individual level, like scientific inquiry, almost. So like science, science is basically a big fancy system of guessing check, where you say, Hey, I think this thing is going to happen. I'm going to design an experiment to see if this thing happens when you know, a certain intervention is imposed. And then did it happen or not? Oh, if it did cool, I confirm my hypothesis. Now let's push it further. If not, okay, cool back to the drawing board generate a new hypothesis, and just run another process of guessing check. And that's, that is the macro factor approach to determining energy expenditure and therefore calorie targets. So like, when you first download the app, it uses a just kind of like standard equation to estimate your BMR. And tack activity multiplier on top of it. really rough estimate of how many calories you're burning. And then it's like, Hey, you say you want to lose a pound a week? Cool? Well, we'll take about 500 calories off of what we think your expenditure is. And we think that we'll be good calorie targets to lose a pound a week. But if you've just downloaded the app, and the numbers you get, or the numbers you've got on startup, there's a pretty decent chance it's not actually going to be that good of a target. There's quite a bit of variability in metabolic rates. Activity multipliers are far from an exact science. See, yeah, that process, like pretty pretty routinely, like has the risk of generating errors that are like multiple hundreds of calories per day. So, you know, it might say, hey, 2500 calories a day? Like, why do we think you're burning 3000 calories a day, so to lose a pound a week 2500 is, is the target to shoot for. And you start eating 2500 calories per day, and, you know, maybe you're not losing any weight at all. That then suggests, like, again, kind of a guess and check process that guesses. 2500 is the number to lose a pound a week, you eat that that's sort of like you generated the hypothesis. Now, let's collect some data. Okay, now let's observe the results. Oh, you didn't lose any weight at all? Okay, well, that means that we probably overestimated your expenditure. So your calorie targets were too high. So your estimated expenditure is going to trend down your calorie targets are going to trend down. Based on your data, your data suggests that in order to meet your goals and lose weight at the rate, you want to you probably need to be eating a little bit less or the opposite like that things are burning 3000 calories a day, on setup, you start eating 2500 And you start losing two pounds a week. Again, like it's so it's not just like a binary guessing track. It's like it's a graded thing. So it's like, hey, we thought you were burning 3000 calories. So we thought 2500 would let you lose a pound a week. We're observing that when you eat 2500 You lose two pounds a week. So that necessarily means you're burning more than 3000 calories per day. So that means to lose a pound a week your calorie targets need to trend right. Yeah, like it's it's that process which you know, as as someone who's who's a proud empiricist and loves science that just appeals to me He's kind of on an intuitive level. But it's also I think, and like, I'm, I'm not just saying this because I have because I have skin in the game like it's, again, sort of like a chicken and egg scenario like, I'm not, I'm not singing the praises of macro factors system, because it's, you know, something I make money from. It's more like, I identified issues with other systems, which is why we have the system in macro factor. So yeah, like the alternative approaches to determining like, how much energy you're burning, and therefore what the appropriate calorie targets would be. Don't have that scientific process that kind of like guess and check mechanism built in. And that would be fine. If there were if there was a system that could like reliably produce very accurate and precise estimates of energy expenditure. But like, there, there isn't.
Philip Pape 1:06:07
Just like body fat. Yeah, we
Greg Nuckols 1:06:08
don't have it yet. And I don't I don't think a lot of people realize that. So like the, so I'm working on an article about the relative accuracy of BMR equations now. Which like, if someone's ever been to a website with like a TDE calculator, or BMR calculator, those are based on kind of like standard validated equations. Were the fun
Philip Pape 1:06:31
St. jeweler and some of the others. Yeah,
Greg Nuckols 1:06:33
here's Benedict. Cunningham. Like they're, they're a bunch. Oh, in Livingston, the FAO has one like there's caught, they're probably like 40 different formulas floating around out there. But yeah, so you know, you put in your relevant demographic and anthropometric information, depending on the formula, it might look for, like, age, sex, height, weight, maybe activity levels, or there are other ones that are just scaled to like lean mass or fat free mass, but whatever. Like Whichever approach they take, it takes sort of like, relative readily and fairly easily accessible information about you, and essentially just uses multiple regression to predict your BMR from that. And that's, that's really only a good approach for getting kind of like a rough ballpark estimate. But so like to get like a little bit nerdy about this. So if you're validating a BMR equation, what you're going to do is you're going to collect all of the data that would feed into the equation, you're also just going to measure people's BMRs, generally via indirect calorimetry. And then, once you you've either like created a new formula, or you've selected which formula you're going to use to kind of like see how close it gets to the measured values. You feed all of the subjects data into that formula, and you get a list of predicted BMR values. And then for those subjects, you also have a list of their actual BMR values that you measured. And then you construct what is called a bland Altman plot to see how well those two values Adam, and almond plot tells you what the, like average amount of disagreement between the measurement and your estimate is. And then it also tells you what's called your limits of agreement, which is basically the range in which 95% of your prediction errors should fall. And like, what you typically see is like the width of those limits of agreement for BMR formulas are like 800 calories. Usually, the average prediction error is pretty small. And I think people look at that a little bit too hard, where it's like, Ooh, yeah, so So Mifflin, st G, or, according to this study, overestimates BMR by 20 calories or whatever. So if I use Mifflin st ger, and it says my BMR is 1500 calories, that means it's actually 1480. But now the tip, the average error is not what you want to pay the most attention to, you want to pay the most attention to the limits of agreement tells you the plausible range of areas that people experience. And again, not talking about outliers, we're talking about where 95% of the data points are all. And so just based on like some pretty straightforward probability. If you have 14 people in a room, you have a better than 50% chance that one of them will have a BMR that would fall outside of those limits of agreement. Yeah, so limits of agreement are typically like 800 calories like around that. So if a if a BMR equation says your basal metabolic rate is 1500 calories per day, just probabilistically you know, it's much more likely to be Close to 1500, then close to, I don't know, 1200 or whatever. But there's, there's a pretty decent shot that it could be anywhere within that 800 calorie range. So if it says 1500 There's like a roughly two thirds chance that you'll be within one standard deviation of the mean. So sure, if the limits of agreement standard range of 800 calories, that means two times standard deviation was like 400 calories. So that means the standard deviations are out 200. Oh, God, this is I don't know why I talk about match. Okay,
Philip Pape 1:10:35
no, this is. So in summary, in summary, the BMR is already off by hundreds of calories. And then the TDE could be worse. If you don't even know the right activity level that's
Greg Nuckols 1:10:44
like, here's the basic. If you if you put your numbers into into like a BMR formula, just give it like plus or minus 400 calories like that's, that's what the 800 calorie limits of agreement imply. So if a BMR formula says, Hey, your BMR is 600 calories per day, that means that there's a 95% chance that it's somewhere between 12 102,000, which is a pretty fucking big range. Yeah. And then like I said, activity multipliers far from inexact science. And even if you pick the right activity multiplier, like even if you say, Hey, I am moderately active. And my definition of moderately active corresponds with whatever this set of multipliers conception of moderately active is like perfect one to one correspondence. And the multiplier there is 1.55. Even if that is the perfect multiplier, even if you are burning 55% more calories than BMR. If there was error in the initial BMR step, the multiplier just propagates the error. So, yeah, so functionally, if like the limits of agreement would span a range of like 800 calories, just for the BMR step. Once you put like a 1.5 times multiplier on it. Now the limits of agreement will functionally span a range of like 1200 calories. So in that same example, like if, yeah, like if a TDE calculator says, Hey, we think you're burning 3000 calories per day. That means you're probably burning somewhere between 2400 and like, 3600. Yeah, that's, that's a fucking huge range. And so you're going to need some sort of system, like, it doesn't have to be macro factor system, but you're going to need some sort of system to like, guess and check and validate. Is this a good guess? Is it not? Does it need to go up or down? So like, that's one approach people use. The other approach people use is like using wearable devices to like, monitor activity levels and estimate total daily energy expenditure. But that's, that's like basically the same process. So they will estimate your basal metabolic rate via the same sorts of equations that that anyone would use to estimate the EMR. And then from there, like they they estimate how many additional calories you're burning via exercise. But there's not there's not like an inbuilt system in those devices to validate whether the initial BMR guess was good or bad. Because it's not taking in like contextual information to like validate whether that estimate was good or bad. And then just like the estimate, the estimate of like energy expenditure itself, like during activity is also extremely rough. I don't think a lot of people realize this, but like there was there was a systematic review by Fuller in colleagues from like 2020 that was looking at, like what the typical error for, for wearable devices for measuring energy expenditure was comparing the the estimate from wearable devices to like the gold standard measure for estimating energy expenditure and free living humans, which is doubly labeled water. And the air is produced by wearable devices exceeded 10%, more than 80% of the time, like 10% is pretty big, like typical guy burns somewhere around 3000 calories per day. That means that, you know, if you burn 3000 calories per day, there's like an 80% chance that your wearable will say, you either burn fewer than 2700 or more than 3300. But like, like like 10% plus or minus. What's your, what's your TD is it's still like a pretty big range. And it's not like that. And again, that's not like the maximum error you can Get, it's like 80% of the time the error will be larger than that. Yeah. So yeah, like, there's, there's not a good way just out of the box to say, hey, without any sort of like scientific process on the individual level, without any sort of guessing check process, there's there is not a system in existence that can reliably produce accurate estimates of how much energy you're burning. Like, there needs to be some sort of process that takes into account how much you're eating, and how how much you're eating affects how your weight is changing. All right, in order to estimate it like that. If, if, if there is a better way to do it, I'm not aware of it. And so yeah, like we we, like, I'm not like denigrating the other methods of estimating energy expenditure. Because I'm a co owner of macro factor, like, I'm a co I'm a co owner of macro factor, because the other methods didn't work.
Philip Pape 1:16:08
That was your purpose. And the purpose led to everybody wants macro fat because it works. I'll promote it for you.
Greg Nuckols 1:16:18
The better approach, like onto the market, which Yeah, I mean, like you can, you can also like, do most of that stuff yourself, like you can, you can track your your calories in a free app, you can track your weight. And if you're like, fairly mathematically or statistically inclined, like it's, it's not that hard to put together like a set of formulas that will like roughly approximate what what macro factor does I mean, like that, that's, that's what I did.
Philip Pape 1:16:51
The you started with a spreadsheet? Yeah, yes.
Greg Nuckols 1:16:54
It started with a spreadsheet that I made an undergrad when I'd taken like one nutrition class, like, it's,
Philip Pape 1:16:59
it still goes back. It goes back to friction, though, right? Greg like to do that most people don't even I love spreadsheets, but I don't have the time for that. I'm not gonna do it.
Greg Nuckols 1:17:08
Yeah, yeah. So so like, you don't, you don't have to buy macro factor to use this general approach. And whether or not you by macro factor, I would strongly recommend using this general approach, but then like that, having it in like a slick app interface, where the food logging is very efficient, everything is good. And it's also doing this thing that would otherwise take additional manual effort for you to do yourself. It just like reduces the friction. And I don't know, like, it's good. Like,
Philip Pape 1:17:39
I don't know, it's good. And for people listening, going back to the BMR thing, or the td td calculation, the traditional approach, right is to try to maintain your calorie intake for like two weeks, and then measure your weight and kind of get it that way. With macro factor you can, it's super tolerable to however much you eat, it doesn't really matter. It's collecting the data either way, which I really like about it. Because I get I get kind of confusion from people on that, like, well, I miss my targets, or how's it going to know that well knows, because you've got the data, regardless of whether you're over or under. There are some interesting corner cases. I guess one is, I've noticed with clients is body recomp, when there are new lifters and they're really putting on muscle mass pretty quickly. And their weight kind of gets offset artificially from macro factors perspective, because it doesn't know your body composition, that would be ideal if we could just plug into you know, an accurate body fat measure which doesn't exist. Because what will happen is the weight will say, if there are maintenance a weight might slip to tick up because of the muscle mass and the manufacturer thinks your expenditures lower and then wants to cut the calories. So we had to have that conversation of like, well, maybe let's just keep the calories a little higher for a little bit, you know, knowing that this is happening. Alright, I know we're running long on time. Is there anything else you wanted to bring up? Or a question you wish I'd asked? Greg, if if you have
Greg Nuckols 1:18:55
more we can keep going. Like I I fully understand that when I'm on podcasts, they tend to run long so if there's if there's more you wanted to cover like I'm I'm chill like I know. I know you you carved out an hour in my schedule, I did not go into this the expectation that it would only be an hour like I yeah, I know what it's like when I start talking but like if you need to wrap up that's that's no no,
Philip Pape 1:19:20
I've been respectful of you because I've had you know, I've had guests that are like it's on the hour we got it we got to wrap up. If you if you have some more questions, we can keep going. I just wanted to get a little bit more into like the science side of things because that's a lot of what you do right? We're stronger by science with the podcast, the research, the research spotlights, which I really like because they're super digestible. Do you have the one recently about the bedtime protein and then well, not so long ago about training while you're pregnant and things like that? What what areas of lifting or nutrition science are you most into right now? Like I'm curious how you pick the studies that you even care about, and write about, but like what are you interested in? Is there anything surprising coming out anything you you know I really get to go on right now.
Greg Nuckols 1:20:02
Hmm. I don't have a great answer to that question. Honestly.
Greg Nuckols 1:20:09
I yeah, I don't know, it is just like kind of on a on a case by case basis like i. So back when back when I wrote for masks, like we had a journal sweep that we did every month, just like pulling out from like, close to 150 journals, just all of the all of the studies that just based on the title, we felt, this might be interesting. And then we'd go through the abstracts to kind of like filter further. And then from there just like pull up full text, just kind of skim on like, Hey, does it look like the study was done pretty well? Or is there or is maybe the abstract, like overselling it a little bit. And then, and then from there, just kind of, like narrow down what we wanted to write about. So like, we we still, like, I still have access to that journal sweep. So it's still like basically the same same process, like, I just go through what was published. And if something just kind of like, tickles my brain the right way. I'm like, Okay, that's interesting.
Philip Pape 1:21:15
Could you use AI for this now? I mean, it seems like a good use of, of AI to sift through that.
Greg Nuckols 1:21:21
Ah, you know, I think that's probably possible. I don't know. I mean, like, so we, we pay people to do the journal suite now. And I like until we have like, robust UBI. Or just like, I don't know, some sort of, like, more collectivist economic system. I don't necessarily want to be on the vanguard of replacing human jobs with AI.
Philip Pape 1:21:48
is asking, it comes up so often these days, but also
Greg Nuckols 1:21:51
curious. Yeah, that's, that's one consideration. And then another is like, I just like that process. Like it least at least, like once, once the list is put together, just like manually sifting through it, I like it, I think, I think it's meditative. And it also, even for the papers, I don't actually like sit down and read. I at least see a list of like, what is getting published? And like, what is getting research attention. So like, there might be a topic where, you know, for like, a year straight, like, every month or two, a new study will pop up on those particular topic. And I'm just not that interested in it. But then once I see it enough, I'm just like, Damn, why do people keep publishing about this? This just doesn't seem like it should be that interesting. But like, people, people keep publishing until like, maybe there's something here. And so yeah, like, I want to get that if I had like an AI program, kind of like sift through the list for me, I'm just gonna be like the curated list like I, I think that there's, I think that there's often a lot of value in inefficiency. I think that like, as, as a business owner, I see a lot of people who are in a similar position that are like very obsessed with increasing efficiency at all costs. Okay, anything that's, like not necessary, or kind of like a low level? Or like a low leverage thing? Can I get someone else to do it for me? Can I just stop doing it? What like, like, that type of deal? I don't know. I think a lot of the I think a lot of the good things that have happened, to me, at least in business, have been due to doing a bunch of stuff that on the surface look looks like it should be inefficient. So yeah, like I spend, probably like two or three hours per month just sifting through the journalists that I'm that I'm positive. I can automate or either you know that or just like hire someone to do it for me just be like, hey, look back at the stuff I've written before. Use that to kind of like calibrate what you think my general preferences and studies are. And then hey, here's a list. Just pull out the 15 studies, you think that I like? Like, I could do that. But then I would miss, you'd be disconnected. Yeah, I would miss a bunch of stuff that's getting published that I may have found interesting that my prior writings wouldn't have suggested that I would have found interesting. And I you know, just like Miss trends as they develop and whatnot. Another good example of that is just like, I do a ton of community engagement, like, with macro factor, like I'm in the groups all the time, like you said, like before we knew each other like you DM me and I responded and like I don't really respond to Instagram DMS anymore just Just because I hate Instagram, I don't like the platform. Actually, what it is, is I don't like typing on my phone. But if someone emails me or they send send me like a Facebook message where I can respond on Messenger, like, I respond 100% of the time. And that is like I do, I probably should do less of that. But I, even if I didn't respond to everyone, I would still want to respond to a lot and like, be in the groups a lot, because I think that, you know, that's another thing that's kind of like on its face and efficient, but a dynamic that I pretty frequently see with people who have content businesses and get pretty successful. And it goes from being more of like a, I am in this community, and maybe like kind of like the leader of the community, but kind of like a first among among equals type of deal. Like I'm still in it amongst the people and seeing what their concerns are and what they're talking about, then, then you you get some success, and you're like, Oh, well, that's, that's a lot of work, I'm going to hire someone to be my community manager, I'm not going to go in there at all, I'm not going to read the comments. And seeing that, in I don't, I built the success off of like my single brilliant vision that people have flocked to, like, so oftentimes, that's a lie. Like, oftentimes people do get popular because they're like, pretty plugged into their communities. And they understand what people care about and what they want. And then as they get more successful, they view it as a benefit that now they can put some distance between themselves or people, but they just end up like getting disconnected from kind of like, the source of what made them like relatable and able to make content that like well in their community actually wanted to consume because like they kind of like sever their connection to that. So yeah, like with with macro factor. For instance, like we're, we're like a very heavily community driven app, like all of us are, like reading the Facebook group reading the subreddit, we see what people are talking about, we see what concerns they have, we have a public roadmap, there's a feature submission portal there. Like we monitor all of that, like we, we know what people want, we know what problems people have with the current product. And we know what new features people want to see. And like, here's, here's a crazy concept like most people aren't idiots like they, most people know what they want. Most people will tell you what they want, if you ask them, or if you create a space where they feel comfortable, like expressing what they want. And then if and then if you give it to them, they tend to be very happy about that. And happy and loyal. Yeah. Oh my god, this, this is a great product. Turns out like, if you if you build the thing that I said I wanted, it turns out to be the thing I wanted. And I like it.
Philip Pape 1:28:11
It's so true. I tell people all the time. I'm like in in the macro factor community and these other apps are just these cold third party apps with some unnamed person. There's a big difference. So I'm glad you do that.
Greg Nuckols 1:28:24
Yeah. So like in a vacuum, each step of that process seems seems like it should be really inefficient, like, just purely from like a business operations perspective. If we closed down the roadmap and closed down the groups or just like never went in the groups ever again, for probably like three months, it would just be like a net benefit to the business because like, we would have more time to do other stuff. Like, you know, we're trimming off a day to day thing that like in a vacuum seems bad. Seems like it should be inefficient. And seems like there should be higher leverage stuff to do elsewhere. But then, like after that three month mark, I think like the the cracks would start to show and I think that the product that we would end up building wouldn't be as aligned with what users actually wanted, and, and therefore would just wind up being a worse product, you know. And so yeah, I think I think that, I don't know, like, I know, this started with you asking about like, I like where it went.
Philip Pape 1:29:33
I like what I want as a business owner and people listening. And also they want to use macro factor, knowing that there's this community behind it. And that's, and it's not just it's not just an app community. It's like a ton of people trying to do the same thing using the app and get results. So it's you learn a lot about fat loss and protein and the evidence and everything just by talking to people in the group. Yeah, but
Greg Nuckols 1:29:52
But yeah, like, just kind of my broad point is I think that I think that a lot of people get overly focused on efficiency. Like metrics and quantification. And I think that I think that there are a lot of things that like, if you look at them in a vacuum, and only focus on the things you can quantify, you would say this is this is bad. It's a poor use of time. I shouldn't do it, I should do things that like quantifiably, at least in the short term would give like a higher ROI. But then like, there's, there are just a lot of like, kind of like second order effects that are challenging to quantify or, or impossible to quantify. And that that oftentimes, like that sort of pursuit, an orientation gives you like short term gains, but kind of like stymies you in the long term. Here's another great example of this. So like, like, online marketing, shit, just drives me crazy. And the thing is, people with like, really like spammy? Like approaches to online marketing, and like email marketing in particular. I think, I think it's like the ultimate expression of how like it over emphasis on like, efficiency and quantification can make you look like you're making the right choice the whole time and end up like fucking you very badly. Because like, the thing is, like, really the so if you if you have like an inbox full of like your, your emails, gotten on a bunch of email lists, just every time you open one, it's just like, just hard sell tactics, like it's really kind of like spammy kind of scammy. very in your face, trying to like, push your emotional buttons and like, find the pain points in order to close the sale. People who go down that road, I understand why they do because for a single email, those emails work much better than anything else. Like, there's a fucking reason people do it. And it's because like, if you're trying to make as much money as possible from one email, you send your list, that is the type of email you want to send. Because like, you know, it's going to have some sort of, like clickbait subject line to get people to click in and read it. And then most people aren't going to buy from any sales email you send, but if you kind of like have you get your like emotional hooks and someone early on and then operate some sunk cost fallacy, make it really fucking long tell long stories, like, by the end, it's just like, Oh, God, I feel like I have to fucking buy something or I just wasted 15 minutes of my life reading all of this, you put some like, like false urgency on it to where they feel like, Ah, well, I have to buy now to get it to like get the deal. Eat just all of like the hard sell tactics, you see an email marketing for a single email. That's exactly what you want to do. Like that will make you more money than any other single email you can send like if a well, a well put together hard sell long form sales letter. Like there's a reason people. But the thing is like, you can quantify those first order effects, you can quantify, opens, you can quantify, click throughs you can quantify sales, you can't quantify. reputational damage. And so if you do that, once you make more money, and maybe if you don't do it again, people forget about it. But if you see how well it worked, and you say, hey, based on the metrics, I can quantify this shit, this is, this is what I need to do. Now the person I just paid for, like an online marketing course. They were spot on, like I took their advice, sent this email, man, it rocked, then then you start doing that. And you just like, alienate your whole audience. You know, and I, I've seen so many people go down that road. And as as they do it, I am 100% Sure. All of their metrics, all of the things they can quantify are telling them you are doing the right thing. But they are doing the exact wrong thing. And yeah, so that's, that's just kind of a lens that I like to look through everything through. So like I I do think that I probably I could probably use my time a little bit better and more efficiently. Like there is probably some fat that I could skim that wouldn't have like deleterious long term like second order negative effects. But I'm always careful about that because I do think that that is an incredibly easy and alluring trap to fall into. In in all aspects of life. Like there's no There's a lot of value in stopping to smell the roses. Not not always taking the fastest way between two points. Because oftentimes, like the stops along the way are, are where you learn like interesting shit that like, doesn't serve any value for you now, but like you tuck it away in the back of your mind and like who pull that out at some point in the future and it's, it unlocked something that wouldn't that that you wouldn't have been unable to unlock as if you would have just taken the most efficient path between A and B every time.
Philip Pape 06:31
That's where I think you're going with that to the idea of just getting your hands and all sorts of things being there being connected, and you never know what's going to happen. You never know who you're going to be. I mean, I've seen there's so many things I do or I don't make any money from them like podcasting, but man, I got to meet you and so many other great people and who knows what these, you know, educational opportunities and relationships will lead to and this is a good way I think to conclude here because we came full circle and we talked about balance and like how you work so hard but also you want to stay connected and things and not necessarily pull away from everything. So any last words or how about tell people where they can learn about you?
Greg Nuckols 07:07
Sure, so let's see I don't I don't have last words I don't Yeah, so if you want to check out macro factor check it out. What's What's your affiliate code if you're listening to this put in fella Wits. &
Philip Pape 07:25
Weights Wits & Weights Yeah, so
Greg Nuckols 07:27
go with Wits & Weights that'll extend your free trial for one week to to any you can get that on the App Store and Play Store. If you you're listening to this podcast, you like audio content, if you want to listen to another podcast check out the stronger by Science Podcast. You can find that wherever find podcasts are found. If you'd like written content, there's there's a bunch of good free content on shorter by science.com and macro factor app.com. Macro factor app.com Not just a sales page for a product like there's there there is a lot of good in depth content there. Yeah, social media. Probably the best thing to follow would be the stronger by science Instagram account. You can follow my personal Instagram account. It's just at Greg knuckles. I don't post there anymore, like ever. And that is the one place where I don't really respond to DMS. So yeah, don't still follow my personal account Follow Follow the stronger by science account if you want to see what we're up to on social media.
Philip Pape 08:36
And that's why Facebook messaged Greg before this call as a reminder, because I knew not to do that. Okay, great. Well, I'll throw all those links in the show notes, man, it was pretty epic. I appreciate you sticking around this, this this amount of time and talking about all a whole bunch of things I didn't think we'd get into which I love. So thank you so much.
Greg Nuckols 08:53
Thanks for having me on it was a blast.
Philip Pape 08:58
If you've been inspired by today's interview, and are ready to take action and build momentum on your health and fitness journey, just schedule a free 30 minute nutrition momentum call with me using the link in my show notes. I promise not to sell or pitch you on anything, but I will help you gain some perspective and guidance so we can get you on the right track toward looking and feeling your best
Ep 77: From Emotional Eating and Bariatric Surgery to Optimal Health, Balance, and Mindful Living with Allan Friedman
My guest today, Allan Friedman, is a member of the Wits & Weights community and a one-on-one coaching client of mine who has gone through his own physical and mental transformation during our time together. He has a passion for sharing knowledge, engaging with fellow health and fitness enthusiasts, and always being of service.
Today we’ll explore his early influences in nutrition and fitness, his personal connection to health and well-being, and how his professional background informed his fitness journey. Allan will share how he's overcome resistance, developed a positive attitude toward fitness, transitioned from emotional to mindful eating, and managed nutrition as a bariatric patient.
My guest today, Allan Friedman, is a member of the Wits & Weights community and a one-on-one coaching client of mine who has gone through his own physical and mental transformation during our time together. He has a passion for sharing knowledge, engaging with fellow health and fitness enthusiasts, and always being of service.
Today we’ll explore his early influences in nutrition and fitness, his personal connection to health and well-being, and how his professional background informed his fitness journey. Allan will share how he's overcome resistance, developed a positive attitude toward fitness, transitioned from emotional to mindful eating, and managed nutrition as a bariatric patient.
Allan Friedman was a School Psychologist for over 30 years, skilled in Developmental Psychology, School Psychology, and Mindfulness Training. In the fitness industry, he loved being a Spinning® Instructor for over 12 years. He maintains a Yoga Instructor Certification with additional certification in Trauma Sensitive Yoga.
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Book a FREE 30-minute call with Philip here.
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Today you’ll learn all about:
[3:53] Influences on Allan's interest in nutrition and fitness
[6:29] Factors contributing to his motivation and positive attitude toward fitness
[10:50] Personal connection with health and well-being
[14:12] Tracking habits and habit stacking
[19:39] Influence of developmental psychology and mindfulness training on his approach to fitness
[27:20] Overcoming resistance in his fitness journey
[31:15] Journey from emotional eating to mindful eating
[36:38] Evolution of his fitness goals and perception of the "finish line"
[38:23] Strategies and challenges of managing macros as a bariatric patient
[42:21] Maintaining a positive and passionate mindset in the face of fitness challenges
[45:43] The impact of our 1-on-1 coaching on his well-being and goal attainment
[49:03] Specific challenges overcome through our coaching relationship and coaching process
[55:06] Advice from Allan for beginners on their fitness journey
[59:53] The question Allan wished he was asked
[1:02:20] Where to connect with Allan
[1:03:01] Outro
Episode resources:
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https://witsandweights.com/free-call
Learn about 1-on-1 coaching ⬇️
https://witsandweights.com/coaching
Ask Philip anything ⬇️
IG: @witsandweights
Email: philip@witsandweights.com
Podcast: Q&A voicemail
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Transcript
Allan Friedman 00:00
There's a positive regard that I have to what they're explaining. I listened to how they learned where they're coming from. So I'm an active learner, but I also know that when I learn something, I try and implement it.
Philip Pape 00:15
Welcome to the Wits & Weights podcast. I'm your host Philip pape, and this twice a week podcast is dedicated to helping you achieve physical self mastery by getting stronger. Optimizing your nutrition and upgrading your body composition will uncover science backed strategies for movement, metabolism, muscle and mindset with a skeptical eye on the fitness industry so you can look and feel your absolute best. Let's dive right in. Wits & Weights community Welcome to another episode of the Wits & Weights podcast. My guest today Alan Friedman is a member of the Wits & Weights community and one on one coaching client of mine who's gone through his own physical and mental transformation in our time together. He has a passion for sharing knowledge, engaging with fellow health and fitness enthusiast and always being of service. Today we'll explore his early influences in nutrition and fitness, his personal connection to health and well being and how his professional background and formed his fitness journey. Alan will share how he's overcome resistance developed a positive attitude toward fitness. Transition from emotional to mindful eating and manage nutrition as a bariatric patient will also delve into the challenges we've tackled together and the coaching process. Alan will share his advice on getting started how he maintains his unwavering positivity and passion throughout his fitness journey. Alan Friedman was a school psychologist for over 30 years skilled in developmental psychology, school psychology and mindfulness training. In the fitness industry. He loved being a spinning instructor for over 12 years. He maintains a yoga instructor certification with additional certification in trauma sensitive yoga. Alan has always been interested in physical and emotional wellness, and how we develop throughout our lifespan. He's an active learner and strives to create action plans that address his purpose and priorities. Allen cherishes life and wishes to bring a passionate and supportive positive vibe to others out, we finally made it happen. So welcome to the show, man.
Allan Friedman 02:15
Here we are. Here we are, wow, I'm listening to that intro. And I'm digging in deep as. And as we'll find out on this podcast, sometimes I just listened to things is go deep into it. And it's like, wow, these are important points. So I thank you very much, Philip, first of all, for your commitment and your dedication to the fitness industry, to the health industry. And your passion, your dedication and your energy is absolutely incredible. And it goes it doesn't go unnoticed. You know, it's it's, it's there.
Philip Pape 02:51
Yeah, man, I appreciate it. And I think you know, we attract each other into our world too, right. So let's not discount that. I mean, you know, you and I probably attracted to each other in some way out there. Because we are both positive, optimistic type people at least that's how I identify. And so it kind of worked out. And you know, the more we do this, and these have these conversations and the people listening can get can get motivated and fired up by that energy and what you have to share.
Allan Friedman 03:15
You mentioned something right off the cuff. I'll just say that what I was attracted to your to your community, was your wisdom was your questioning. On the different group us these intelligent questions, I said, Well, I said this guy really gets the science. He gets the he gets the research. And that's when I joined your Facebook group that oh,
Philip Pape 03:36
man, yeah, standing on the shoulders of giants, right as they say, I could accept a compliment and and I also want to pay it back to all the people that I have to thank for getting as well. Okay. Alright, let's get started. Let's get started. So I want to I want to learn a little bit more about maybe some things that even I haven't learned about you. Starting from your background. You mentioned before that your grandfather and also Jacqueline lane. These are some of your early influences on your interest in nutrition and fitness. So can you share about how these individuals or others have shaped your perspective, then they spurred this passion you have.
Allan Friedman 04:10
My grandfather was as my I would call him a nature boy. You know, he was an Eagle Scout Scoutmaster. He lost his father when he was young due to the flu, influenza epidemic. So he wanted to pay back and he was like, uh, he dedicated himself to the boys in the community in Brooklyn where he lived. So that was his impetus for my my mother said that, while he wanted to be an Eagle Scout, they taught me the phrases men are like owl and there's not a cloud in the sky. Look how blue the sky is. He told me to go for a hike and they told me about hiking. He told me about gardening. He a couple years before he passed away, that he told me how to make a vegetable garden. He taught me how to transplant you know, to all kinds of gardening and he passed away when I was 11 years old. So it was a sudden loss, tragic loss and then let's move along to my adolescent years, you know, when you're into your body, so a cousin of mine sit down and look what I have, I have these 12 packets of 10 or 12 packets of exercise programs, and they would do it yourself Jack the lane in your in your bedroom, you know. So I remember still my favorite memories of that when I was 15 years old, was doing tricep dips on my desk chair. Okay. And then going downstairs and having Titus cheese, you know, it's like so
Philip Pape 05:31
I remember doing doing the price. He already knew you had to get protein even back. That's right, exactly.
Allan Friedman 05:35
Yeah. And I always write. So I remember doing leg raises. I remember doing core work, all this stuff in my bedroom. And I remember telling her mind, he kind of says, so I was. So that goes back when I was 1516 years old.
Philip Pape 05:51
Now, where were you was this like, it was just like Arnold Schwarzenegger where he could just envision his muscles growing.
Allan Friedman 05:57
I was always fighting with X, I was always fighting with being overweight. Okay. So yeah, so I didn't I, I always was on the chunkier side. And so it was kind of like my way of kind of taken care of myself. I wasn't into sports into team sports, necessarily, although I did love riding my bike. And I liked other, you know, individual type sports, but I was not a team. Sport. Person.
Philip Pape 06:27
Okay, Scott. Cool. So now fat did was there a gap in there. So that was when you were a kid and then doing the tricep extensions on the chair and then eating the cottage cheese. I mean, we're take us now, today.
Allan Friedman 06:40
Oh, man. So today, there's a mantra we're going to skip to today. So there was a time where I gained a lot of weight. I just gained a lot of weight. When I was having kids, you know that, you know, that became daddy. And, you know, forget about me, it's all about, you know, about taking care of kids and working and trying to you know, keep the budget going and things of that sort. So I ended up gaining a lot of weight. At one point. At one point, I had a doctor who told me that if I wanted to see my grandkids, I have to lose weight. This is my this was in my early 30s, late 20s, early 30s. Okay, that's pretty young,
Philip Pape 07:23
right to be told that. Yes, yes. And you're saying your family your situation was that you're, you're very giving guy I know that about you. So you put others before you always what it sounds like? Yep. Okay.
Allan Friedman 07:36
So what happened was, and this is kind of like moving along my journey here. So my grandmother before she passed away, I used to take care of her, you know, when she was sick a little bit. And she said to me, Alan, she goes, you have to take care of yourself, because no one else will. You see, no, she saw a little bit that I wasn't I was a little, you know, she was concerned. So I did. I did. So I every time I'm telling you every time I go to the gym, even to this day to this year, so let's let's bridge the gap all these years. I say to myself, Alan, take care of yourself. Because no one else know. Because no one else, it's up to me who else is gonna lift the wings? Yeah, who else is going to go for a walk? You know, it's I have to have an internal locus of control, and make sure that I do what I need to do for myself. There's a saying that I have. And it's also part of my motivation, Phillip, if I'm only if I'm not for myself, who will be for me? If I'm not for myself, or if I'm only for myself, what am I? And if not now, when. And so it's a focus on the on myself or ourselves as individuals, that we have important work to do in this world. We have to take care of ourselves, and we have important work to do. However, it's not just about us, rail, if we're all in for ourselves, whatever, what are we you know, when we don't exist in a vacuum. So therefore, it's a call to action to other people are the commitments or their obligations, other acts of kindness that we do in this world? You know, reaching out? What in that in the context of also, I wouldn't say juxtaposition. I'd like to use Venn diagrams. So I think there's an intersection between ourselves and the community, and plus a call to action. Because just thinking about it and wondering the diary and writing down what you're grateful or appreciative of every morning is fine, but we need to act on what's important to us. And in my situation, bring it back full full for backwards back to the beginning, is that we need to take care of ourselves in order to take care of others as well. You know,
Philip Pape 09:55
ya know that we should sit with that concept, right? Because there's so much on social media and discussion about self love, self worth body image, body positivity, all these things. And the idea that pursuing some level of fitness or even aesthetics, or whatever the goal is, is somehow a self maybe a selfish pursuit, when what you're saying is that what drives us is our mission in the world, others, our family, to the people who care us, care about us and who we want to be a service of, and thus, don't we want to be our best selves, physically and mentally to make that happen and accomplish that mission. Right? Does that that's what we're saying. Yes, exactly. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. And your quote, your mantra reminded that I think Epictetus has a quote, I use all the time as well, very similar of like, when are you going to demand the best for yourself? Because nobody else is going to do it? Right? demand the best? Yeah, so you have this deep personal connection with health and well being it's not just about lifting weights, right? It's not just about aesthetics, you've gone through a long trajectory of, of emotions of physical states of your relationships with others over the decades. So how does that play in? And how do you? How do you implement your mantra to stay consistent? Like, it's nice to say it, but how do you do that?
Allan Friedman 11:17
I want to initially say that it's meditative. I always tell my trainers and my friends at the gym, that lifting weights, and is meditative. Even high intensity interval training is meditative. Because when you go through the steps of the intensity, before you bring it back down, again, you have to understand where you're at, you need you need feedback, you need a heartrate monitor, perhaps you know, for some objective information, but you also have to realize what's happening to your body, your breath, your brain, your your state of being as you move through everything. And lifting weights is really about internal internal feedback. in mind, first, but also internal feedback. So every time I'm lifting weights, whatever I'm doing in the gym, whatever it is, there's a brace, there's a breath. And then there's an internal locus of focus. And, and that's kind of that, but I also feel that it's happened. It's the habits I've created, to act as a structure a foundation for what I need to do. Because getting to the gym, and getting for a walk, going for a walk, going to buy the proper groceries at a grocery store, right? The whole ball of wax built in, there has to be an underlying structure that you work from, that people work from. And I think that really helps me.
Philip Pape 12:51
You just hit on to so powerful concepts, just kind of lightly, what am I trying to say? Like, not flippantly, you just mentioned them. And to me, they're very powerful. The first one is that lifting weights is meditative. I've actually never heard it put that way by anybody. And you really struck a chord with me with that, because I'm the kind of guy who I like to I'm very rational, very logical, you know, to me, it's like lift weights, get a result, do this, get a result. And I don't really meditate, I don't do a lot of breath work and stuff, even though I've tried. It's just not ingrained in my habits like it could or should be. But I do lift weights, and I do heavy squats. And I know that process, when I turn off the music, no one's there. It's just me because I workout at home. So it's very meditative. And I'm thinking of a cue, I'm thinking of my breath, and I feel my, my abs pressing on the belt, and I feel the, the force going straight down into my heels through my squat shoes. And I'm looking at the position with me relative to the all of that, like you're saying is a high level of awareness and internal focus. And then, and all you're trying to do is go down and up. But it's this whole mindset thing. I love that because you can identify with people who love lifting weights and say, you know, you are engaging in a form of meditation when you do that. That's very powerful. That's very powerful, because it's really about resilience and the resilience you get from that. And then you tied it to habits, which is a whole separate thing, right? Where if you don't have the habits yet, how do you get those habits out on like, where should someone start? Trick, right?
Allan Friedman 14:28
Pen and paper. Okay, pen and paper. That's how I started. Why don't we hit the whiteboard, whiteboard or pen or paper or notes on the iPad on your phone. You don't need a fancy Apple though. There's a couple of great apps for habits. It's kind of also digging in deep, seeing what we need in the kitchen, in our action steps to get us to where we need to go. And one thing I've learned lately, since I've already established habits is habit stacking. I think that's amazing. So you might say, How do I go for a walk? Well, what do I like to do that I could pair with going for a walk? In my case, it's podcasts. All right, when I'm behind them, my podcast is because I'm not working my steps in the park.
Philip Pape 15:23
That's actually a great point, Alan, around yet another powerful thing, because I know we've talked about habit stacking a few times, but when my feed gets really long, I'm like, why is it long? Oh, because I took a D load week this week, and I wasn't lifting or walking as much. There you go. So maybe I should just go for an extra walk, catch up on my podcast, you're right. It's great. It's
Allan Friedman 15:43
right. So it's about, it's all about just building up one habit at a time, one step at a time. You know, maybe it's, it's, um, getting a gym clothes together, maybe it's first buying a nice shirt for the gym, you know, or a pair of shorts that you are dedicated, you might have two shirts and two shorts that, you know, you dedicate for working out. You have a protein you have, you know, you if you're mindful of nutrition, you have the nutrition set.
Philip Pape 16:13
You know, these are good techniques, I want to I want to stop there. Again, you're talking about like, having things you enjoy, or almost like a little reward or celebratory thing that gets you going right, it could be that new shirt, a new piece of equipment, you know, you don't always have to buy stuff and spend money. But even you mentioned a protein bar. Like if there's something if there's a protein bar you like versus one you don't that can make a difference in get having it right. You also mentioned the reminders in your phone. I need more selenium. So I added a habit that says Eat Brazil nuts every day at 11am. You know what I mean? I just added as a reminder, it sticks there and read until I do it. Right. My question to Philip is how many? Two? I just need to
Allan Friedman 16:52
That's it. Yep. Right? Right. Oh,
Philip Pape 16:55
you need a lot of calories too. So you got it.
Allan Friedman 16:58
I love it. I love it. I love it. But yeah, so um, yeah,
Philip Pape 17:03
cool. No, I just, I'm interrupting you on purpose. Because the things you're saying are really valuable for the listener to just dwell on it. Me too, right? I'm part of this podcast is I'm learning and then the listeners learning with me, one on one adding more on that because I have other things we can get into. There's one more thing also
Allan Friedman 17:18
I'd like to add to this accessibility. Okay, things need to be accessibility if things are hidden, or in a room you don't go to or in a draw that it's that you don't, that's not visible. There's a barrier between you and the action step with a habit. So I have my proteins, my protein powders, my creatine, like I have a little little area which used to have a carrot, the carrot moved away. So in the place of the Karen, I have my proteins, McHale, you know, all my all my supplements that I pre make ahead of time. So in the morning, I just have to dump a little Rubbermaid you know, recipe of all my powders, dump it into a shaker cup of water, and I'm out. There you go. So it's a matter of, of accessibility also.
Philip Pape 18:07
Yeah, that's a good way to put it. It accessibility, which is the opposite of resistance or opposite of a barrier. Yes. This is a
Allan Friedman 18:17
great way. Yeah, it's a good way to put it. It's right. There's less resistance. Yeah, between your goal or your habit. And what you need to do.
Philip Pape 18:26
Yeah, you know, I was, I was just listening to Darlene Marshall, she was on the show. I'm not sure. I think Chris might, I'm not sure if it'll be out by the time this one comes out. But she taught her latest episodes about micro habits, the idea that you don't have to have a habit every day, you can modularize your habits. And you just made me think of another concept related to that of time based habits. In other words, if if you have a lot more energy in the morning to do something, use that energy to prepare yourself for the habits when you normally wouldn't. So if you for me, that used to be when I would go to the gym, I would, in the afternoon, I'd prep my gym bag and prep all my stuff. I prep my workouts because I had all this energy. And then in the morning when it's 5am and I'm dragging myself out of bed, I'm like, Well, it'd be more work to put all that away than to just go to the gym. So I'm just gonna go to the gym. Yeah, really good stuff, man. I didn't know that. We'd get into whole habit strategies here. But this is good. It's part of
Allan Friedman 19:19
the ball of wax it is really is filled with which we were talking about my progress with talking about what I dig into. And these things that I dig into that helped me have success in what I'm doing, or mostly success, you know, every day is not perfect.
Philip Pape 19:35
And it's not going to be and that's cool, though, every day.
Allan Friedman 19:38
So let's see what else what else would you like to discuss? Well,
Philip Pape 19:41
I do want to connect your background as a school psychologist to your understanding of psychology in general, right developmental psychology, which is its own niche there and mindfulness training. So you have this interesting background, how does all that contribute to your approach today?
Allan Friedman 19:58
I think My training in psychology in my, in my profession has taught me to honor the individuals in front of me. When I have a student across from me at the table, I have to look at, I don't want to get specific necessarily, but I look at who they are as a person, I look at who, you know, for lack of a better word, I just say there's a soul sitting across from me, whatever this student is involved with, or needs help with, or whatever, what can I be of service? What can I do to reach this, this individual students? So I always I've learned to initially have a positive and unconditional positive regard. And I also have used well, that's one thing. And also developmentally, what does a student need? There was an incident a long time ago, where a principal was having difficulty with a student. I looked at the student, and within a minute, the student was calmer, more relaxed, and was able to, you know, principals able to work with what she needed to deal with in terms of parents, whatever that she sent out. And how did you do that? I said, I assessed what the student needed, developmentally. What is what is it? What is a six year old need? What does a four year old need? What does a 10 year old need? What is a 15 year old niece or an 18 year old? What's going on in their developmental stages that they need? That I can help them with? So this is kind of like jumping around umbrella points, so to speak, because there are so many umbrellas, and major points that I can point to, to answer your question.
Philip Pape 21:55
Yeah, I mean, bring it back, bring it back to your if you just had to sum up your philosophy today. Right? Right. But the between this positive, unconditional positive regard, understanding what people really need, people are people are individuals that have unique needs, and maybe deep, very deep down inside them. Who knows? And then the mindfulness training, right? How does that all bring us so are your
Allan Friedman 22:18
mindfulness training is amazing. It's then that are my yoga background. So I think that my work in psychology evolved a little bit more for mindfulness, stress reduction, meditative breathwork. So I often did different types of breathing techniques with my students who are in a state of anxiety. Its fellow co workers needed something. I was not there to work with, you know, to know that they, but But I think, you know, breath work is very powerful. I used to go into the chorus room, in music department, and do breath, work, breath, work meditation with the choral students, so they could access their breath, and understand their breath a little more than when they sing, you know, and pastoral things and things of that sort. So, there's a whole a whole blend, it's called being eclectic, you know, I love being eclectic, and having different tools to use for different reasons, you know, in different times. So I think, you know, I just think that we all need to dig into ourselves a little bit. And understand and have a focus. One thing that I've also learned is that we have to access our parasympathetic nervous system. We're always fight and flight, it's very easy to be fight and flight and fight. So what yoga does and breathwork does is it relaxes your mind from your body up. So the actual vagus nerve, you know, the vagal nerve that goes into your, into your abdomen, the innovation of that causes a relaxed state. And that's how breathwork works. That's how Yoga works. So we can be very working hard on our mats in yoga, but at the same time, we developed a relaxed state, because we're working the nervous system in such a way that we're able to kind of settle in. So that's kind of, you know, anti anxiety. Mindfulness, teachers use mindfulness in the classroom. There are so many techniques for teachers to develop a common denominator of atmosphere, and vibe in a classroom by starting off with a mindfulness exercise set sort of the world that kids get into focused and they're able to learn a little bit. So education and mindfulness is huge. There's some amazing, amazing psychologists who are who have done work on mindfulness and education. And that's research and practices ongoing.
Philip Pape 25:20
And I'm just letting you talk palette because you're relaxing me right now with theater. There's a you could just like, This is good. I'm just going to use this podcast time for my own, you know, mindfulness with Alan Friedman, social hour here just seriously, there's something to be said about even even connecting with somebody, I get the sense that that probably relaxes us to some some level here.
Allan Friedman 25:45
But when it says something, I remember, I remember being in Montana. Okay, cut back and cut, no cut bank, my bank, I was going to Glacier nationals on Route two in Montana. And I remember going to a an auto auto parts store need a new battery for something. And the owner's wife was telling me about her son. And I said to myself, you see, no matter where we are, no matter what, what, where we are, whether we're in New York, Montana, could be other countries kids need the same thing. Developmentally so this is developmentally there are some certain basics that people need, whether were an infant or whether were eight years old. It's just it's just their basic we could talk about Mazza we could talk a shot so many other things. But um, that was it. I think that's pretty much it isn't. It's a knowing that it's a knowing that people have different different requirements, different temperaments. And there are ways to work with, with people in in the gym, the same thing. You know, I have, we have friends, I hang out with people in the gym. And there's a certain vibe and and people tend to kind of understand where they're at. So a lot of people are doing the meditative work, like you said, Philip without even calling it meditation. Yeah.
Philip Pape 27:24
So we've talked, we touched on the idea of, of, of attacking resistance of eliminating barriers. But you would you've struggled like many of us, you had periods in your life where you struggled with physical fitness, right? With with your body with eating, emotional eating, things like that. What is it that potentially was missing at the time that you have found? Or maybe it was there and you just weren't using? Or what could have? What could have helped that person that now you're finding could help others?
Allan Friedman 27:55
That is a great question, which is going to lead me into some medical history.
Philip Pape 28:00
Okay. Do it if you're comfortable? Yeah,
Allan Friedman 28:03
sure. Well, I've always eaten healthy noise, but a lot, you know,
Philip Pape 28:14
suffered there suffer, there. Were words mean things, words mean things, and I want people to understand, right? That you can, and the word even the word healthy is has got some label, what am I trying to say? Some bias to it, depending on the context. Yeah. When you say eating healthy, I surmise You mean like eating whole foods, not eating too much processed foods, maybe not alcohol, whatever. But you were just eating too many calories. So totally possible, which means you could you could eat healthy, have too much. You could also eat not so healthy, but maintain the caloric balance you need. There's all combinations of this possible. Yeah,
Allan Friedman 28:52
there's one time that came home from school. And I mindlessly, mindlessly. So, some chocolate chips, melted them in the microwave, mix them in with peanut butter, and started eating the peanut butter and chocolate mix. I had a very hard day. And I just and then I stopped myself. I looked at what I was doing. And he said, Why am I eating this? What am I doing here? You know, and this was also during the weight loss phase. This was also when I was working on my weight lunchtime, you know, a while ago. And I said you know what? Eating is meditative. I'm, I'm I'm not thinking about it. But I'm engaging in a behavior that's trying to calm myself down. And I just said, now that I understand that I have to do something else. I can't be mixing peanut butter and chocolate chips.
Philip Pape 29:50
Oh, I got out and really you're just you're connecting so many dots. Yeah, I don't know if you realize that because we were talking about fit how exercise or squats or whatever. We're meditative. Almost like you're in a trance is another word maybe because I talked to another guy who talked about self hypnosis and use that terminology when we're just so focused and nothing else matters. And then you just said eating is meditative. And it's not like there's judgment on that. It just is what it is. And you're like, Well, now that I know that let's do something else meditative that benefits me.
Allan Friedman 30:19
Yes, yeah. Yes. Yeah. Yes. 100% 100%. So that was a pivotal point in my life. And this goes back years. And you know, a while ago,
Philip Pape 30:32
hey, this is Philip. And I hope you're enjoying this episode of Wits & Weights. If you're looking to connect with like minded listeners on their health and fitness journeys, come join our free Facebook community. It's a supportive space where you can share your experiences, ask questions, and access free guides and weekly trainings. Just search for Wits & Weights on Facebook, or find the link in the show notes. Now back to the show.
Allan Friedman 30:55
So what let's bring this back to the question again, Philip, you want to refresh my memory? Because we're talking a lot. I'm thinking a lot.
Philip Pape 31:02
You know, what, these these conversations it almost doesn't matter what the question was, if if we get these revelations, yeah,
Allan Friedman 31:09
yeah, I just think also that, um, so my journey, my journey hit a point, right before COVID. So I had managed, managed, so I've been I've been a spin instructor. You know, I've been a yoga instructor. And always dealt with weight, always, always, but it got things got a little heavier for me, you know, things started kicking in. And I have, you know, a little bit of, you know, the cardiologists that have a GI doctor and have my, my regular physical, you know, in turn. And that long time ago, my GI doctor mentioned something to me about having a hysterectomy, stomach, hysterectomy, like, you know, slip jerking my stomach, that was a long time ago, because I don't if you have to think about this, I know somebody who might be. So go ahead eight years or nine years, and I call him back. And I said, Doctor said, you know, my weight is this. And it's COVID. And I know that if I were to get sick off a bit, I may not survive because of my obesity. 80 pounds ox and the ad pens. Oh, boy. Sure. And he said, Alan, you he said, Alan, yeah, he thinks it's a good idea. He gives me the green light. My primary doctor said Alan, you've been struggling with your weight a long time. Because I think it would help my cardiologist. He was all in. So scared to talk to him. And I sat in my examiner's office. He said, you know, with your family history, and your struggle, he said, It would be great. He said, I know. I know, someone I had stick with him. We went out for steaks, he had this procedure done. It took me five minutes to finish my mistake. It took him 25 minutes, almost a half an hour to finish this thing. He said he said he enjoyed every single bit of it. And he said it looks amazing. He said, You know, it might have been a colleague of his. So he said go for it. So I did. That was hard. Philip, it was the surgery itself was a piece of cake. But the work beforehand, I had to be I had to show their last week beforehand, they have gone a two week liquid diet to shrink the liver to shrink fat around the liver to shrink the liver so they can get to the stomach better. And then you're then then after a while, then you then you move yourself up, you know, to regular eating over the course of months. It's a biological learning curve again,
Philip Pape 33:57
you have to adapt to this. But before we get there, though, before we get there, so just playing devil's advocate, because I know people think this or when they judge people, they don't know their history of why they did things. It sounds like the pandemic was like the straw that broke the camel's back in terms of your personal health scare or reality or whatever, something that you knew you you wanted to deal with for years, but just hadn't had the impetus quite to take action. And why did you did you think that you didn't have any other option or that the a more natural approach would have been too risky or take too long, given your health was in danger?
Allan Friedman 34:34
Okay. I've had also other health issues history. So in my family, there's, there's there's other other metabolic conditions. I also had heart heart surgery, you know, a while ago, about 1516 years ago, so I'm in great shape. And with that background, I think I needed to do something more acutely
Philip Pape 34:59
the imminent risk was palpable. You had to take action.
Allan Friedman 35:02
Yes, you have to do something. Right. But it wasn't right away. I mean, I started this process in in May. And it took till October, you know, obviously, there's a whole process. It's not like I decided, and then two weeks later, I'm ready. Right? You know, it's a process and working with, as, you know, working with professionals about it. Really knowing that I have support and knowing that I have the skills to carry this through. Because it's not an easy fix. And, um, they'll tell everyone listening to this, you know, it's very easy to say, oh, you know, he now? No way because regain is real. And if anyone who's a bariatric patient use this, they'll say, Yes, Alan regained is real. It's a matter of so we regain, obviously. But the question is, and Philip, this is where we come into, into play. What is the quality of the regain? Okay? Is it muscle? Or is it extra fat? My, my bariatric doctor, it's too much. It's maybe three or four. But one of them is protein first. The second one is Wait, train.
Philip Pape 36:17
Great, and those are good mantras.
Allan Friedman 36:19
I said, I said that I said to him, I said, Listen, I don't want to look, look, I don't want to look, you know, like I'm 10 years older than I am. You know, like, I don't want to say I don't want to you know, he sit down, the best thing you can do is wait two or three times a week. And cardio he said but weight training and each Protein Protein first,
Philip Pape 36:38
where you had your weight trained up to that point, or just the yoga and the spinning and stuff like that.
Allan Friedman 36:44
I had done some weight training, but not as significant. Oh, yes, I've done weight training. Trust. Yes. So in the 1990s, I followed Bill Phillips body flag program. I weight trained all the way to to 2004 2005. And then it took a little hiatus. And then I became a spin instructor in 2009. So it was more of a cardio type of
Philip Pape 37:12
so you were like D trained at the time? I was Yeah. Okay. Yeah, no, just so people understand the history, but also your if you don't mind, what was your age at this point? Back then, when you had the surgery coming out of that
Allan Friedman 37:28
51 of those 61 Six. So figure it was
Philip Pape 37:34
I was just getting the ballpark
Allan Friedman 37:36
6160s 66 to 61. Just so people
Philip Pape 37:39
know that at whatever age you are, you can you can manage your health and you can improve your health. Yeah, yeah, for sure.
Allan Friedman 37:44
So it was in my 60s was in my 60s. So actually, I had actually I had been lifting weights prior to the pandemic, but not as focused. And that is dialed in. I did have a trainer. I'm thinking back, I did have a trainer. But it wasn't the three day a week. Progressive loading.
Philip Pape 38:12
Yeah, so Okay, got it. So you may have you may have lifted weights more of as a form of exercise, not necessarily strength training and growth. 100% Yes, then you start doing it properly. So a lot of things are going to change. So we're getting to a pivot point, you have the surgery, you have this supportive doctor, which is rare. Sorry, I had to say that when it comes to lifting weights and protein, and it seems like a lot of things started changing at that point because you talked about the story of the chocolate and peanut butter, right? And emotional eating so I want to understand how that changed from emotional to mindful. And then also the other things that you do right tracking, planning, listening to your body, all these things,
Allan Friedman 38:55
okay, okay, yeah. head coaching. So coaching, yes, thanks
Philip Pape 39:00
for the plug. Yes coaching.
Allan Friedman 39:02
So let's go through this. So originally, go ahead restate that again, because a lot of things my mind right now I'm sorry.
Philip Pape 39:10
Yes. So what changed after you had the surgery? How did you start to develop more beneficial practices for your health? Okay,
Allan Friedman 39:20
the kitchen first of all, my kitchen became loaded with with healthy proteins. When I can only eat my stomach I really feel comfortable only eating about five to six ounces of salad protein right now. Pretty much and maybe a little vegetables and stuff like that, but it's protein first. So I had to maximize the kitchen. First. Ground beef, dark meat, chicken, eggs, egg whites, flaxseed, pumpkin seeds, you know all the things that they don't, but and it was a buildup. So first There was just kind of cheese and fish, or cottage cheese mixed with eggs or egg whites, you know when it first started, so it's it's a progression. So I also don't feel like I want to fill my day with chips with ice cream. Even if a tailor tap, I mean, I don't want to waste my, my capacity and my macro factor goals and our goals to other foods that have very poor nutritional value.
Philip Pape 40:36
How did that happen, though? How did you get to that mindset? I mean, you said you already always ate healthy foods.
Allan Friedman 40:42
I was gonna say, Oh, I always had that mindset. When I was a kid I loved or open those nutritional by nutrition Bible. I mean, I was I had a part time job at the vitamin shop.
Philip Pape 40:54
But use your time to butter chocolate and peanut butter. I'm gonna come back to that because you mentioned that not that those aren't delicious foods in and of themselves, trust me. But the way you ate it in that emotional state, and it was mindless, like that's what I'm trying to get at. So that the people listening who might be struggling with that understand how can they turn that corner? Putting a lot on your hair, man?
Allan Friedman 41:15
No, I would say first of all, it's a matter of choosing. So instead of that I'll have yogurt with berries, or I'll have PB two. You know, awesome. I still have my peanut butter. I can just show you what's in that cabinet over there. Okay.
Philip Pape 41:37
Yeah, so you're replacing I replace the starting place.
Allan Friedman 41:40
I still enjoy my peanut butter, but it's PB two. I mix flaxseed with Pb two with pumpkin seeds, and maybe a tablespoon of oatmeal. I put it in a ramekin or a little saucer and mix it up with little skim milk. And I have myself a nice treat, you know. So like to me, that to me is a great treat. I don't need the peanut butter and chocolate. And if I want chocolate, I could get dark chocolate church and have I have dark chocolate. Or I could Mix powdered cacao and mix it in with, with whatever I'm using. You know, so I What about the mindset? It's a mindset.
Philip Pape 42:21
Yeah, and I'm trying to take one more level because there's the there's the emotional trigger part of it, right. So I totally love that strategy of replacing I use it all the time as well. Like if you love crunchy things, you can replace them with other crunchy things. But then we also don't want to mindlessly eat those, quote unquote healthier snacks. So there's that aspect to it.
Allan Friedman 42:38
I think I work too hard to sabotage myself again. No digging down a little bit.
Philip Pape 42:45
So you love yourself is what's driving you right now. And you always have it's I'm sure. But like, the stakes are high,
Allan Friedman 42:53
the stakes are higher now. And yeah, I'll have I'll have peanut butter once in a while, and I'll have chocolate, but I won't be mindlessly have digging into Haagen Dazs was in my fridge, my freezer, it's linked to something else because I'm working too hard. When I start doing something, it's like, okay, I have macro factor to be responsible to I need to log everything. So it keeps me in check. And if I do have something, I have to be accountable for it. But I'm dialed into my weight training program, Phillip,
Philip Pape 43:25
there you go. There you go. You're dialed it, yes, you're dialing in and everything is everything is compounding on everything else is what I'm hearing from you. It's like this helps. This helps this the way you eat, the way you move, the way you train the fact you have your you're a bariatric patient, all of those things. Plus coaching helps obviously, that's extrinsic motivation. The community helps you talk about, you know, your family, your loved ones as well helping you and I've had conversations. So that's a great message for people to understand that it takes one thing, but then it can start to lead to another to another. And, and help you do this.
Allan Friedman 43:59
Like I said, You we create a whole ball of wax. And if people are visual, think of a Venn diagram of how things so I had like a 3d Venn diagram moment where it's not just the the bubbles like intersecting, but then building upon each other. So we have different layers of different layers of blends, not just a unit, not just a flatland, but it's layers. So what you describe Phillip just now is so accurate, because it's a layering of habits or layering of intention that continues to build upon itself. Yeah.
Philip Pape 44:38
Yeah, Larry. And another another phrase I learned recently is upward spiraling, again was from talking to Darlene same, I think from positive psychology. Yeah.
Allan Friedman 44:47
I think that's why I thought of it again when I heard that yes, yes. Yes. So okay. Yeah, go ahead. Wow. Wow. I'm feeling like wow, it's pretty intense. I just want also to share that just having a bariatric procedure is not the easy way out. It is a action that leads to further responsibility. incredible responsibility. And I own that responsibility. And maybe that's what you're hearing, you know, you and our listeners today, here is this responsibility that I have, to my health, and to what I've done in my life, you know,
Philip Pape 45:30
it's a great way to put it. Yeah, like your past happened, whether whether it was because of your choices, or not, which we know that some of it is your choices, but that's fine. Now you took responsibility for your future. So now, I'm curious. And this is, because we are in a one on one coaching relationship as well. We met through macro factors, since we both use that we were in the community there. I talked about that app all the time here, people are tired of it by now. But uh, how has the coaching independent of everything else helped you? I really am curious on how, like, if if we I feel like if we hadn't been in a coaching relationship, you still would have been successful. But I want to know, what, what the extra contribution was in leveling up your progress over the last six months?
Allan Friedman 46:17
Well, you've taught me things about myself. You had a vision that I did not see myself. Like, let's get down to the deeper parts of the Sunday. Okay. It's not about the technique. It's not about necessarily about the weekly forms I have to fill out. It's not about it's about the results of my weekly assessments with you. It's about our conversation about your conversation with me. It's about realizing that I don't know everything myself. And my mindset for so long, has all been about the scale, the number on the scale, it has to go down, it has to go down, it has to go down, it has to go down. And if the while man, that's not appropriate, right? I mean, it is appropriate at given times for sure, at given times. But right now we're on maintenance. And I'll say, everyone, you use this phrase, there's magic in that maintenance. And Tony, Philip, we've talked about this before. So the magic and maintenance is also dovetailed, juxtaposed to leaning into you as a coach. So the magic of maintenance is not just about my macros, it's about your wisdom, your coaching, you are beings laying a foundation of support for me to be in maintenance and say, Wow, man, it's okay. I gained three pounds, but I've kept that weight for five weeks. And my muscles look great, and my pants still fit, and et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. And maybe I gained a half a pound of muscle on the other Renfrow scale, I don't know, whatever. I mean, that gives me that's a grain of salt. You know, you can take that with a grain of salt. But I feel good. I were attacked out this week, first time in a long time. And I like whoa. So that's, that's where the coaching that's independent. That's where the coaching is done. It made me believe that I have the power inside of me to make progress in a way that I did not know myself, that it took you and your wisdom and your knowledge to say, oh, let's try and do this. And I was petrified. But you mentioned in your previous podcasts, and that when you go into maintenance, people are anxious about gaining weight. I was there, I was so nervous. I was like, I'm going to eat and I'm going to gain weight. And I'm going to end up over this weight. And I'm not going to look. But that didn't happen. So you know.
Philip Pape 49:04
So, so here's what here's what I'm hearing from you, Alan, because a lot of people think coaches are, are there to maybe provide information, right, but a lot of a lot of folks know what to do. I mean, you're you're above, above average, in terms of that knowledge, right? Because you listen to all the podcasts you read you. I mean, we and you and I go back and forth on the research, you send me articles, all that stuff. That's totally beside the point. It's these other things you didn't know you had inside you. It's maybe a relief from some of the stress, right? I'm hearing like, you're just able to unload on someone else that can support you. And I'm the kind of guy that it just like, I'm not gonna get stressed by your stress, right? Because you're not me. I'm not emotionally invested. I'm emotionally invested in your success. But but your stress, you can just kind of throw it over the throat of a wall. We'll just get rid of it over here. It's great. It's crazy. You know, like Just to think that you didn't know what you were fully capable of. And it wasn't that you couldn't lose weight, it was that you couldn't stop losing weight without thinking it would all go off the rails. Yeah.
Allan Friedman 50:14
Another thing that your coaching has helped in general, this whole process my mom passed away about, you know, with passed away also in 2021. And I just think that what I'm doing for myself, is honoring her as well. Because she always wanted me to take care of myself. And she was happy when I had the surgery. And she looked at me beautiful, you're doing this. So it's like, everything. So talking, you're talking about stress, that's one thing we didn't talk about yet, was the biggest stress in my life, the biggest upset, but also learning, I learned a lot was my mom got sick, and she passed away. So with that being said, let's bring you into the picture. Now, let's bring your coaching into the picture. So not only so now I haven't I added another, another leg to the foundation of what I need to do for myself. And I leaned into you with Trust. You're safe. You're safeness. You know you're very safe about what you do your wisdom. I also think that you're also have an amazing capacity for communication, and allowing people to become introspective. And I think all of those things together, combined with what I had said before, create the unique coaching experience that I've extended had with you.
Philip Pape 51:46
Well, thank you, Alan, I don't I don't know what to say. Because there's always a little bit of imposter syndrome in me too, like we all have, of you know, like, the idea of wisdom and all that. But one thing I one thing I think about talking to you is you have a background in psychology. I'm not a therapist, I don't have a background in psychology, nor do I purport to do that at all. And sometimes there's a difference in, in the approach between psychologists and coaches, right, psychologists often help with the past and healing. And coaches are like, what do we do now going forward? What tools do we use to move ahead? I'm not saying that that's there's not a Venn diagram of overlap. Okay, but from my perspective, even when you're talking to me about your mom, you know, one thing I always feel I struggle with is like, how to properly respond to that and empathize with people. And everybody struggles with that, right? When others are going through these difficult times. It's like, what do you say? It's always it's a universal human question and concern. But, but I always come back to Okay, what does Alan need now from me? And because he's got other things that are going to give him the support, maybe in that personal area? What does he need for me? And what did he hire me for? And what are we doing here? And that was kind of helping you move through it, you know, not not necessarily to process it, that's more of your own thing to to manage? And again, I'm not a therapist, it's just how do we move forward, I my focus for you is your health, your physical health, which does give help with your emotional health? So how do I help you move forward with that? Right? So that's where having a coach can definitely help. Yeah, cool.
Allan Friedman 53:18
And the ability to lean into the coach, not every not every client can lean into a coach. It's kind of like, people coming into the spin room and saying, out, are you gonna kill us today? No, now why do I want to kill you, I want to I want to build your I want to build, you know, build this build the, you know, build a skyscraper, and that just bring it to the penthouse, you know, so, so it's like, we have to leave our ego at the door, you know, Philip, I want to lose weight, I want to lose 15 pounds, by in six months time, I want to be 12 to 15 pounds lighter. And there's a whole picture that I can still stay the same or even gain a little bit, but also have a better body composition. So it's a matter of me also leaving my ego. And my directive is I'm a very directive person very. And it's like leaving that to the side and say, okay, maybe I need to listen to to someone else. Maybe I need to listen to a coach, maybe I need. I'm going to try maintenance, Phillip might have an idea. So I did. But it's that openness. It's that breath that we take that pause to allow things in. If we're always, if we're always on the go, and we don't, if we don't if we are a cup is always full. If we always have a full vessel. We can't take in we can't learn. So part of it is emptying the vessel a little bit to bring in
Philip Pape 54:48
all that's good, that's good. And a vessel. I know it's a metaphorical vessel, but there's also literal like our day to day schedule, our time all the things that we do vessel As part of that, and you're speaking to me to Alan, trying to empty that vessel a little bit. Okay, so Well, if somebody's listening, they're like, Wow, we're getting into a lot of deep stuff here, but also a lot of actionable strategies along the way. What advice would you give to someone just starting their fitness journey? They might be 65. They might be 25. And you know, they might be 90? I don't know. And they feel overwhelmed, right. There's information. There's misinformation, there's training programs, nutrition plans, coaches, websites, social media, books, podcasts, you name it. Let's take a breath. Where should someone start? In your opinion?
Allan Friedman 55:36
They just start where they are. There's so much in social media, so much around this, that say, we should be here. We should we should we should be shredded. We should be this I'm never going to be shredded. You know, I seriously, it's like, but but I'll be out look good. Okay, so I think people need to honor what I'd like to express to people who are just starting out no matter what age, people might be starting out, if they're a disability, if they're surgery after an illness, they might be starting out because they want to lose weight, they may be starting up a so many different reasons. And that's why I'm going to pause it this. See where you're at. Invest in a trainer, invest in a coach, someone you can talk to, even if it's just for one session, or two sessions, see where you're at, identify your goals, honor where you're at. Because it's step it's a step by step process. But the only way to go one step at a time is to honor and see what your needs are, where you want to go. Knowing that what your why is where you were, you know, what is creating your why. And, and the why is powerful. The why is like something that takes you into periods of plateaus. When you're in a plateau. When you say, oh, man, I just want to give up the why you did Why are you doing this? Why did you start you know, take a week off, take a diet, break whatever you want to work, quote. But know that your why is there and you have to really want to return to it. So that's what I would say on away or at, reach out to someone professional. Write things down diary, what's going on? Get an objective opinion, objective, look at what's going on with you at the hearing now and where you want to go. And why. What's creating the pivotal point? What's creating this pivot point in you that you want to make a change? Where are you at? And when you close your eyes, what do you envision for yourself? For some people, it might be just be able to walk around the block. And for some people, it might be lifting 10 pounds, for some people that might be able to walk up and down stairs, again. Okay. So some people, you might be bench pressing, you know, it might be you know, whatever. For me, it's hanging from a bar and doing chin ups. Okay, you know, I look at calls. Yeah,
Allan Friedman 58:24
I'm making a joke, but it's, but it's very serious. You know, so take everything where you're at. You know, there was a time when walking up a hill. When did me after my heart after I had my heart procedure. It took me a while to walk up. When I used to walk across the street to come home. I live on a hill, I had to walk diagonally instead of straight up the hill. Because I would get out of breath after the surgery. So I was walking though. Okay, so I had to build myself up. And my cardiologist said, Alan, you have no restrictions. You can get on the spin bike after after this time, and you can do this. But my physicality needed to come back to itself.
Philip Pape 59:13
And you engage in form of progressive overload by starting where you're at. And then going from there. Yes, exactly. Works with everything in life. I think it's good advice. Cool. All right. So people are going to get out there pen and paper, they're going to reflect on what they want out of life and why and then start where you're at and go find some resources, you know, special help people, podcasts, whatever, find resources. And this is a great resource, Allen's a great resource, we're going to maybe hook you up with his contact info in the show notes, we'll see but he's in our community. Either way, if you want to join in, reach out to him.
Allan Friedman 59:45
I'm on Facebook. You know, I don't post a lot but um, if you want to reach out to me, send me a message. I'll, you know, I'll be glad to respond.
Philip Pape 59:53
So you know what I'm gonna ask next. It's the penultimate question, Alan, since you I know you listen to the podcast and what is what There's one question you wish I had asked, and what is your answer?
Allan Friedman 1:00:03
Oh? Where do I get this desire to learn from? Where do I get? What, you know, what is my impetus behind learning? You know?
Philip Pape 1:00:12
Yeah, your curiosity, your passion, your learning. All right.
Allan Friedman 1:00:16
So this is saying, who is wise, one who learns from everyone. So, not that I absorb everything unconditionally, because it definitely has to go through a filter, sometimes, you know, at times. But, um, but I am always there questioning and learning. am learning and listening to other people who are wise we surround ourselves with people who, who have something to offer in terms of their own experience, there are mentorship abilities. So I think when we surround ourselves with people who are wise, who are scholarly, who are wise to the world, and that sort of unnecessarily intellectually, but who were mentors, I mean, that's like, that's, like, you know, a brotherhood that's like, you know, or, you know, our fellowship of, of how we learn. So I'm always honoring. So this goes back to my original mantra of positive regard. Okay. So when people listen to people, I, you know, there's a positive regard that I have to what they're explaining, I listen to how they learned where they're coming from. So I'm an active learner. But I also know that when I learned something, I try and implement it. So we all know, you know, call Behrman has has a has a, you know, the prep work, right? You know, so there's a call to action. And then there's a lot of a lot of different things that I do. But learning is important, but transferring it into action steps to make an impact. You know, learning is a change of behavior, and observable change of behavior.
Philip Pape 1:01:58
And that's good. That's good, right? It's not just consuming. It's changing your behavior from what you hear and what you learn, right? Yes. Right.
Allan Friedman 1:02:06
So that's it. You know, who is wise one who learns from everyone Great.
Philip Pape 1:02:12
One who learns from everyone, I'm trying to do that with this podcast, man bring on people that I can learn from and the listener can learn from so let's, but let's take action as well. So you definitely gave me personally some things to think about. And I'm sure the listener I mean, just all the things we covered. So where where do you want listeners to reach out to you or learn about you,
Allan Friedman 1:02:30
they can reach out to me on Facebook, I have an Instagram or perhaps in the community on the Facebook page, you know, if they want to come into the Facebook page, I'm active there. And there'll be a great place for them to correspond with me.
Philip Pape 1:02:47
All right, yeah, we'll put the links to the your Facebook profile as well as the Wits & Weights Facebook community where Alan hangs out regularly. And man that was just as this is awesome. I mean, we got into things that we didn't expect and a lot of value for the listener. So man, thanks so much. Thanks for coming.
Allan Friedman 1:03:01
And Phil, thank you for inviting me. I hope I was of some help and value to your listeners and your community and the community that we both a part of, and I wish everybody who's listening a little good things. Just
Philip Pape 1:03:18
all good things. And with that, we'll say toodaloo Thanks, Alan. If you've been inspired by today's interview, and are ready to take action and build momentum on your health and fitness journey, just schedule a free 30 minute nutrition momentum call with me using the link in my show notes. I promise not to sell or pitch you on anything, but I will help you gain some perspective and guidance so we can get you on the right track toward looking and feeling your best
Ep 76: Diet Breaks, Energy Flux, Plant-Based Protein, and Dieting Psychology with Eric Trexler
Today I have the pleasure of chatting with the renowned Dr. Eric Trexler to discuss nutrition science, psychology, and application. We'll explore his experiences, research, and coaching, covering topics such as diet breaks, dynamic maintenance, and plant-based protein.
Today I have the pleasure of chatting with the renowned Dr. Eric Trexler to discuss nutrition science, psychology, and application. We'll explore his experiences, research, and coaching, covering topics such as diet breaks, dynamic maintenance, and plant-based protein.
Eric Trexler, a pro-natural bodybuilder and sports nutrition researcher with a PhD in Human Movement Science, has years of university-level teaching experience. He has published numerous peer-reviewed papers on exercise and nutrition for improved strength, size, and leanness. Since 2009, Eric has coached individuals, prioritizing evidence-based and personalized approaches to help them achieve their fitness goals.
Eric is the co-owner of MASS research review and MacroFactor app. He is also the co-owner and Director of Education at Stronger By Science, where he writes articles, coaches clients, and co-hosts the Stronger By Science podcast.
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Book a FREE 30-minute call with Philip here.
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Today you’ll learn all about:
[2:30] Impact of early physical self-perception on Eric's fitness journey
[4:53] Tangible impact of his research on real people
[6:50] Findings and implications of his study on diet breaks
[10:38] Protocols for implementing diet breaks
[13:33] Nutrition and training approach for people with menstrual cycles
[17:36] Rationale of Eric's article on reverse dieting and dynamic maintenance
[26:10] Tracking maintenance to adjust weekly or get out of a diet sooner
[29:30] Carol appreciates Philip's support in maintaining her nutrition and recognizing the value of rest days
[30:36] Science related to energy expenditure and flux
[34:44] Physical activity level and appetite regulation
[36:32] Current stance on plant-based vs. animal protein
[42:16] Strategies for omnivores to include more plant-derived protein
[44:49] Psychological aspects of dieting in the context of tracking
[49:25] Area of research that is exciting right now
[52:04] Impact of metabolic adaptation on weight loss success
[54:50} Learn more about Eric
[55:38] Outro
Episode resources:
Eric's Instagram: @trexlerfitness
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https://witsandweights.com/free-call
Learn about 1-on-1 coaching ⬇️
https://witsandweights.com/coaching
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IG: @witsandweights
Email: philip@witsandweights.com
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Transcript
Dr. Eric Trexler 00:00
The people who avoid metabolic adaptation effectively are not necessarily the people who have more success with their weight loss or their long term maintenance of that weight loss. There are so many more important factors impacting the success of a diet phase and the subsequent maintenance.
Philip Pape 00:19
Welcome to the Wits & Weights podcast. I'm your host Philip pape, and this twice a week podcast is dedicated to helping you achieve physical self mastery by getting stronger. Optimizing your nutrition and upgrading your body composition will uncover science backed strategies for movement, metabolism, muscle and mindset with a skeptical eye on the fitness industry. So you can look and feel your absolute best. Let's dive right in. Wits & Weights community Welcome to another episode of the Wits & Weights Podcast. Today I have the pleasure of chatting with the renowned Dr. Eric Trexler. As we delve into nutrition science, psychology and application, we'll explore the intersection of his personal experiences academic research and practical coaching, touching on topics like diet breaks, dynamic maintenance, plant based protein and more. Eric Trexler is a pro natural bodybuilder and a sports nutrition researcher with a PhD in human movement science from UNC Chapel Hill, and several years of university level teaching experience. He's published dozens of peer reviewed research papers on exercise and nutrition strategies for getting bigger, stronger and leaner. Eric has been coaching since 2009, and is passionate about helping people achieve their fitness goals with evidence based and personalized approaches. Eric is also the co owner of the mass Research Review, macro factor app and co owner and director of education at stronger by science, where he writes articles, coaches clients, and is the co host of the stronger by science podcast, which is where I first heard about him and his work, particularly on nutrition and body composition. Eric, thank you so much, man for joining me on the show.
Dr. Eric Trexler 01:55
I am happy to be here. Thank you for having me.
Philip Pape 01:58
Appreciate it, man. Why don't we help the listener learn a little bit about you, I've got a couple of personal questions, and then we'll get into some research. So we go back a bit in time set the stage for why you do as you do. Some years ago, you were born in Ohio on a cold spring morning in 1991, as he likes to say. And you wrote that you're short and kind of slow as a 12 year old, you were training to play football. He later got into wrestling and eventually the world that you're in now with nutrition, body composition, all the things I said in the intro. So what I'm curious about is, how did the perceptions of your physical capabilities or your limitations with all those athletic experiences shaped your approach to fitness? And how does that carry forward to today?
Dr. Eric Trexler 02:38
Yeah, I think I just realized, you know, I was 12 years old, I grew up in Ohio. And, you know, football is one of the major religions in Ohio, and I really wanted to be good at it. And, you know, I never perceived that I had like, major limitations or anything like that. But I you know, I started to realize around the age of 1213. And so as you know, football, they seem to like people that are really big and really fast. And currently, I'm neither. So I realized, you know, if I want to get on the field, see some playing time, you know, I'm not going to be able to just roll up to practice in August and just kind of be in the top spot there. In terms of the depth chart, I realized, that's still accessible to me, it's still an attainable thing, but I'm probably going to have to do more than the people who are a little bit more genetically gifted for what this sport requires. So if I'm going to take that starting spot from someone who's naturally a little bit faster, a little bit taller, a little bit bigger, I'm going to have to find a way to get the edge and the way I did that was by being very meticulous about technique, very, very technical football player, and I got in the gym early and often. And and it kind of created that created that mindset that you know, when there's a goal out there, even if it is not like if you're not just perfectly tailor made for it. Usually there are some strategies that can make it attainable, or at least closer to attainable. And, and that's kind of the the approach that I take generally in fitness, which is to be ambitious, but to kind of temper that with being realistic, and to focus more on, you know, trying to be really pragmatic and saying if this is a goal, and it is somewhat realistic, you know, what are the pragmatic steps that we can take to get there?
Philip Pape 04:28
Yeah, I like that. So there's a little bit of an optimism bias, right, that kind of positivity paradox, they call it where, you know, you temper it with realism, but at least there's some some major growth that you can achieve Right? Which is, is motivational for people listening, you know, guys like me, who didn't even get started with this until four decades into my life, who may have given up hope, you know, realize that there's always something much greater you can attain to so that's, that's a great lesson right there. Alright, so you've made a point, not to just be involved in the academic side of your research, but also in implementing your research and I'm just curious or at least in in monitoring how it's implemented. So can you share an instance perhaps of when you saw the fruits of your research making a tangible impact on real people?
Dr. Eric Trexler 05:09
Oh, yeah. I mean, you know, in some studies, you can see it, just with the study participants, you know, I mean, we did a weight loss trial, where, you know, we provided a lot of support to individuals who are pursuing some pretty ambitious weight loss goals, and you can see, you know, just talking to them, because there's a lot of face to face interaction, and research, just talking to them, about how they're more able to play with their children, you know, chase them around the house without getting fatigued and stuff like that they're getting back into hobbies that they haven't pursued in many years. And sometimes we even see our research getting used kind of generalized outside of the actual study participants. So a year or two ago, I had, you know, we did some research on fat free mass in pretty high level football players. And I talked with the entire staff of a really high level football team, you know, top 10 division one type football team, about how they might use fat free mass, when they are the fight fat free mass index, I should say, as a metric when they're doing recruiting, and when they're looking at player development within their program, and trying to kind of set these profiles for what a position might look like. So yeah, there have been ample opportunities to see that stuff, kind of leap off the page and get into real life.
Philip Pape 06:30
And I'm not sure how many people think about the benefits to the participants in the studies, because when we think of them as just numbers on a page when we're not in there in the trenches, like you are, and that's, it's really cool to be in a field where you're not only gathering useful and helpful data for others, but the process of doing so is helping people as well. Yeah, that's cool. So let's get into some of that research. I was looking at some of your papers trying to figure out where we cover, the first one we'll talk about as diet breaks, you publish the article in the Journal of Human Kinetics pretty recently, I think called the effects of intermittent diet breaks during 25% Energy restriction on body composition and resting metabolic rate, in resistance train females. And you compared continuous dieting to taking breaks every few weeks is what I understood, and to see if there was a difference in body composition and metabolic rate. So tell us about the findings. I'm not going to give it away. Tell us about the findings, any impact on diet breaks as a strategy.
Dr. Eric Trexler 07:27
Yes. So diet breaks got really popular back. You know, a few years ago, a lot of people were talking about metabolic adaptation, this idea that metabolic rate slows down during dieting. And that's largely driven by reductions in a hormone called leptin. And that gave rise to interest in a lot of strategies where people would increase energy intake for some period of time, try to get leapt into rise for a, you know, transient period of time. And maybe that would help stave off some of these adaptations. And so diet breaks were one such strategy that a lot of people speculated myself included, maybe this will be helpful in terms of navigating those reductions in metabolic rate, and, you know, maybe even helping with some fat loss. So, without getting too far into the details, basically, we did not find in this particular study that diet breaks led to an advantage, or a statistically significant advantage, in terms of reductions in metabolic rate, fat loss, muscle retention, anything of that nature. But we did find one small finding related to kind of more the psychological side of dieting. And that's pretty consistent with other studies in the area, indicating that diet breaks can psychologically make dieting a little bit more tolerable, a little bit more enjoyable. It's never going to be fun. But but there are a variety of different psychology and kind of subjective outcomes related to appetite, desire to eat, things of that nature, that seem to be slightly improved. And I can say, for being a coach, that that's kind of hit or miss, you know, I've worked with some clients who love doing diet breaks, I've worked with other clients who hate it, I use diet breaks as a coach, I don't use them for myself, because psychologically, I don't enjoy it, you know, so I try not to be too dogmatic about you know, should people or should they not use this, but it's more of, you know, what does this tool do and for whom might have be useful? One caveat, I'd like to highlight, we did not see those significant benefits related to metabolic rate or body composition. But there have been a couple of studies showing, you know, a similar lack of, of advantages in those areas. But what we're, you know, the theory there is that it is helping to attenuate metabolic adaptation to some extent, it is worth noting that in these studies where it doesn't seem to do that, there isn't just there's just not a lot of metabolic adaptation happening in the first place, right. So if it's like, Hey, we're doing this thing to attenuate metabolic adaptation. And the participants lose two kilograms over eight weeks, and they're not, you know, super lean, we're not really going to see metabolic adaptation. So even if we were theoretically going to attenuate it, it's, I said, it's like, you know, studying a painkiller. And people with no pain, it's like studying the repellent in a place where there's no BS, right? You're not gonna find anything. And it has nothing to do with whether or not it works. But nonetheless, as I've seen more of this research come out, I am growing more and more skeptical about physiological benefits of this strategy. I think the benefits are more behavioral and psychological.
Philip Pape 10:37
Yeah. And I think there's gonna be some time to reverse dieting when we get to that. But I did want to ask about the strategies when you do have clients that you use it with? Are you experimenting with a certain standard protocol at first? Or does it based on? Is it based on the situation that they tell you like, Hey, I'm going on, I'm going to be traveling or my weekends, I tend to eat more, or is it something? Is it always highly individualized? Or is there some default protocol you'd like to follow?
Dr. Eric Trexler 11:00
Well, if we're trying to, you know, just make this there are some instances where we do diet breaks, just because life happens, right? I'm traveling, or if I have a client who has a fairly regular travel schedule, and they're like, hey, every third week, I'm out of town. So well, let's, you know, for work or whatever, let's make that a diet break, or, you know, hey, weekends, it's just super hard to deal with. Let's make that a refeed. You know, we'll do a two or three day refeed on the weekend, around that time. So sometimes these nonlinear dieting strategies, I'll use them just to accommodate, you know, schedule fluctuations and preferences. If I've got a client who is really, you know, we don't feel the most common place, I see this as someone who has already lost a lot of weight, and they still want to lose a lot more, right? And the idea of just saying, well, let's just go in a straight deficit for another 70 weeks, it's just like, psychologically, it's like that is daunting to look down and say, Okay, well, I've been dieting for two years. And let's go ahead and push for, you know, another year plus. So, a lot of times, it's when we're looking at these long timelines for weight loss, and we've got some pretty ambitious weight loss goals. That's where I'm more inclined to go to, let's go ahead and do like kind of a default strategy. What that looks like kind of depends, you know, sometimes I'll do two weeks of dieting. One week, a diet break, sometimes I'll do two and two, sometimes I'll do three weeks of dieting, and one week of diet break. And it kind of just depends on the person. And obviously, the trade offs, there are pretty, pretty simple. The more you know, the more you increase that ratio of diet break to dieting weeks, you are slowing down the process, there's no getting around that. And so if you've got a client who's going to be really discouraged about turning a 20 week diet into a 40 week diet, then diet breaks are not probably not right for them. Or you might do like, you know, three weeks of dieting, and just one week of a diet break. But if you got someone who were like, Hey, I'm going to be dieting for the next year and a half or two years, you know, I want to lose 65 pounds, you know, I've already lost 30. You know, if we're talking about those kinds of really ambitious weight loss goals, where it's just about forward progress, we're not trying to get there in a really, really rapid rate. In those cases, we can kind of slow things down and say, Hey, let's go, you know, to and to, you know, two weeks on two weeks off, or something along those lines.
Philip Pape 13:31
Yeah. And actually, speaking of that reminds me of some female clients who who might experience a much different hunger based on their cycle. And that reminded me of a nonlinear approach of that sounds very much like what you're talking about a two week on two week off? How common is that use? Or how common is that needed or helpful for for clients that you've seen in real life?
Dr. Eric Trexler 13:51
Yeah. Specifically with regards to the menstrual cycle?
Philip Pape 13:55
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, a lot of women listen to the podcast. So yeah, you know, I
Dr. Eric Trexler 13:59
try not to approach any kind of default strategy for navigating the menstrual cycle, whether it comes to training or nutrition, not because it's an unimportant physiological, you know, cyclical pattern, but because it can vary so much from person to person, you know, the more that I talk to clients who have a menstrual cycle, the more I see that you know, what works really well in this case doesn't work super well, in that case, and mass is the research we publish research review we publish every month. Our new co author is Lauren Kalonzo sample, and she is a leading expert in this area. her dissertation has a lot to do with female sex hormones. And she's written papers about training around the menstrual cycle. And, you know, in talking with her, you know, someone who is just absolutely dialed into this literature, she tends to advocate that there's really no a one size fits all approach for these types of modifications. So that doesn't, that doesn't mean you shouldn't do anything. But it means as a coach, hopefully, you've got really a really good coach client relationship where you can have that open dialogue. And so, like for training, for example, I don't say, oh, you know, your menstrual cycle is coming up. So I'm going to assume we need to make these three changes to it. But if my client says, Hey, I'm having some menstrual symptoms, today, I'm really not feeling up for this type of workout, then we go in and modify a few workouts, you know, around those symptoms, rather than saying, oh, because you're in this phase of the cycle, we're going to, you know, kind of dazzle ourselves with all these kind of mechanistic hypotheses about how your training should change. And I take the same approach with nutrition, if it's a situation where an individual experiences particular food cravings at a certain time of the month on a regular, you know, kind of cyclical schedule, you know, sometimes it makes sense to do a plant hedonic deviation, or to do a refeed. Sometimes, accommodating those, those cravings can actually backfire. You know, sometimes, if you know, those cravings are there, you say, oh, cool, then let's increase calories by x, you know, the fact that there's now been an allowance for extra calories, sometimes we increase calories by 2x, or 3x, you know, because it's kind of like, once the floodgates are open, you know, that, then we're kind of into, you know, a bit a bit of overeating that deviates from the plan even more than that kind of accommodation that's been made. So, for some individuals, we might even say, oh, cravings, you know, let's do, you know, a strategic increase in calories, we might find that it's really hard to rein it in, when those calories go up. And then in future months, we say, okay, that, that wasn't good for us. You know, that's, that's why I personally, you know, like I said, I, while I've done research on refeeds, and diet breaks, and I find them fascinating. I've used them for clients, I don't use them when I'm dieting, because once I start deviating from my typical daily intakes, I now want to eat way more than I used to, you know, it's kind of once I start kind of going beyond that kind of easy, predictable daily calorie intake. It's like when I'm when I'm locked into that routine, I don't even really think about overeating that much. But once I'm going above that, I say, Wow, this is really cool. I wouldn't mind going even higher, you know?
Philip Pape 17:28
Exactly. In that point, you're like, I might as well be in a muscle building phase. Now that's gonna be my diet break for the next six to nine months. Yeah, exactly. All right, cool. No, I just does interesting tangent I wanted to explore. But I do want to talk about reverse dieting for a bit, because you did write the popular and maybe notorious in some circles article titled reverse dieting hype versus evidence, you disect the evidence on on reverse dieting, which I know you will personally behind basically pioneering that maybe even the term itself, correct me if I'm wrong, but claims about it, why dynamic maintenance, which I want you to get into a bit is more aligned with the evidence and is simpler, it's a less stressful way to potentially recover from a diet. So tell us why. What drove you to want to write that article? And then what the response has been? And we can get into some of the details of it?
Dr. Eric Trexler 18:16
Yeah, yeah. So you know, reverse dieting, I certainly didn't come up with the topic. But I, to the best of my knowledge, I think I'm the first person to use it in a peer reviewed paper. And maybe even the second person as well, because I was writing a lot about metabolic adaptation between 2014 and 2017. And kind of introducing some of these ideas into an area you know, they were they existed in the fitness industry, but no one in the research world was really talking about them much. Because no one in the research world was kind of embedded in that kind of corner of the fitness world. So yeah, it's something that I was very interested in, and actually quite optimistic about when I first started looking into it and thinking about it and writing about it. As the years went on, I became less convinced about the kind of under the theory kind of underpinning it. The idea is, you know, after a diet, this metabolic adaptation has occurred. If we look at the extreme case, you might, we might find a physique athlete who got shredded for a competition and their sex hormones are low, their thyroid hormone is low. And when I say low, I mean typically well out of the reference range. Like if you went to your physician, and I've done this before they go, what's happening, some something is wrong, right. And, of course, it's just your underfed, right. It's not like there's a there's usually nothing too catastrophic going on. This is a normal response to an abnormal thing that you're putting your body through. Doesn't mean you should ignore test results. But you know, it's pretty easy to understand what's going on there. Once you talk to your physician, but anyway, low low sex hormones low thyroid hormones, you know, energy expenditure tends to be quite low in this state. And so you see that you're dieting on lower and lower and lower calories as you get into this kind of really restricted state. Now, physique athletes, that's where this idea got popular because they, if possible, they love to get back to a normal calorie intake for them. So, you know, I've been in situations where I'm dieting on under 1500 calories. And I'm like, you know, I'd love to climb back up to 2600, or 3200. But stay shredded, because who wouldn't? Right? That'd be great. As long as I feel great when when I kind of get back up to a higher intake. And so the idea was, okay, if energy restriction is causing these adaptations that are very unfavorable, and make us kind of feel like crap, perhaps we can do the opposite of that we can reverse it. Hence, the term reverse dieting, which is, instead of slowly reducing calories over time, we slowly introduce calories over time. And the idea was, maybe we can recover from an endocrine perspective hormonally. Going from negative energy balance to neutral energy balance, where instead of losing weight, now we're maintaining weight. And maybe, you know, there are some studies where, you know, they'll bring people into the lab, overfeed them by like, 800, or 1000 calories a day. And what do you know, their energy expenditure goes up, you know, they're just full of all this extra energy. And so they start fidgeting more, and their basal metabolic rate goes up. So the idea is, what if we can kind of get people recovered from a hormonal perspective, and nudge their energy expenditure upward by just slowly increasing these calories. And the idea that has been popularized is that you can keep doing this to a pretty significant extent, just kind of go up and up and up. And all of a sudden, you have these, in theory, people that are still like stage ready, bodybuilders who feel great hormones are normal ranges, they're eating plenty of food, and they're just shredded. So that's the concept. But unfortunately, for a lot of reasons that I mentioned in that article, it just doesn't seem to work out that way. You know, the, the physiological state like I said, overfeeding from your kind of natural body weight is going to increase your energy expenditure for most people. Now, it varies a lot from person to person. But if you are like doing like an eating competition type of overfeeding, you will increase your energy expenditure. But that's a very different physiological state compared to refeeding from being at a reduced body weight. And so what we see is when people are so like I said, overfeeding from your typical body weight, very different from reintroducing high food intakes. When you have been dieting for many, many weeks and lost a lot of weight, what we see is that there are a number of adaptations that occur such that we are more predisposed to kind of easier and more rapid fat gain after a significant fat loss phase. So that overfeeding process that occurs, or the kind of observations we see from people who have not been dieting really do not translate to people who have been dieting. So that's a really important point is that we have a huge difference there. There are also some points I make in the article about different metabolic phenotypes, spendthrift versus thrifty the getting into the details of that is probably excessive for our purposes here, but
Philip Pape 23:35
go read the article. I can throw it in the shownotes. Yeah, but
Dr. Eric Trexler 23:38
but the general idea is, when we look at the research on metabolic phenotypes, the people who would stand to gain the most from reverse dieting, are the least likely to actually experience any increase in energy expenditure when they slowly reintroduce calorie. So I wrote a very, very long article kind of exploring, not just why I am very, very skeptical of the concept, but also why it often seems like it works. Because I know a lot of if you if you're listening to this, you're like, Well, I don't know, I saw someone on Instagram. And they said that they reverse dieting, and now they're still very lean, and they've increased their calorie intake by 600 calories a day. I don't dispute anything in their, you know, their anecdote of what they have done. But I do dispute some of the underlying physiological conclusions that a lot of people draw based on those observations. I think, in most cases, the kind of really eye opening success stories we see from reverse dieting, working, it's really more of an illusion, that can be explained in a pretty straightforward way. Yeah,
Philip Pape 24:49
and there's two things that come come out of this I wanted to follow up on one is the practical or logistical reasons. Some times people give, you know, like, well, I can't jump back by 1000 calories overnight, you know, Is that Is that a valid concern? But it also has nothing to do with why we say reverse dieting does or doesn't work. Would you agree?
Dr. Eric Trexler 25:10
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, if someone is hesitant about making a large increase in I mean, if someone wants to maintain their weight, or if they're a little bit nervous about, you know, if they at least want to attenuate, weight regain, if they want to stay pretty close to where they've gotten in their diet, well, then it probably doesn't make sense to jump 1000 calories overnight unless they're in 1000 calorie deficit. And most people at the end of a diet are not in 1000 calorie deficit, that's a big deficit. And usually the deficit shrinks over time, as the diet gets harder and harder, we're less inclined to make these big, big cuts, usually, rate of weight loss slows down. And that's indicative of a smaller deficit. But so yeah, I mean, I, I would totally say, Oh, if you don't want to increase your calories, 1000, then don't you probably don't need to in order to maintain what you've got here. But But again, that's doesn't really make an argument for reverse dieting. Right? It just is kind of an unrelated topic,
Philip Pape 26:08
right. And then the other piece is the idea of dynamic maintenance, that perhaps the reason people jump to, by too many calories and say, well, we need to reverse up is just the lack of understanding where their maintenance is at that time. And I think that's a great concept that, that I've learned personally, I mean, that's honestly been a game changer, this idea of tracking your maintenance, and being as accurate as you can, using apps or whatever it takes, so that you can adjust weekly, but also get out of a diet as quickly as possible. So maybe just I still think a lot of people aren't 100% aware of that concept, or they may not use apps that use that concept. So maybe talk about that a bit. Yeah, so
Dr. Eric Trexler 26:45
the idea with dynamic maintenance is exactly what the name implies, which is that your maintenance calories today, so the calorie intake, that's going to help you maintain your current body composition, is probably not the same number that it's going to be in six months, or a year or in 18 months. And if you're dieting or gaining weight, it's going to change a lot through you know, even someone who's trying to pretty much stay the same, it's going to change over time. But if you're throwing in weight loss phases, and weight gain phases, your maintenance target is going to fluctuate a lot. And so what we find is, when someone is dieting, and they get down to the end of a diet, their maintenance calories have dropped, it's essentially unavoidable. And that's not the maintenance level that they're gonna stay with the rest of their life, when they get out of a calorie deficit, just that alone is going to increase their basal or resting metabolic rate is going to kind of come back closer to where it ought to be based on their body size, like, just simply getting out of a deficit is going to increase your daily energy expenditure. And so what happens is, people get to the end of a diet, they say, okay, I'm good, I've wanted to lose 20 pounds, I lost 20 pounds, I'm going to increase my calories, just enough to get back to maintenance. And when they do that, since they are no longer in a deficit, they probably will observe that their maintenance level actually starts to go up a little bit, because instead of being a negative energy balance, now they're a neutral energy balance. And so then, because their energy expenditure has gone up at at this new calorie intake level, now they find themselves in kind of a small deficit again, and they can bump that up just a little bit. And what we see is that reverse dieting basically posits that if you just kind of force your intake up little by little, that metabolic rate will catch up because you're driving it up. In reality, dynamic maintenance is the idea that it you are basically catching up to these this drift of your maintenance level. So it is dynamic. As you continue trying to achieve maintenance level or neutral energy balance. It will keep drifting away from you as you start to get back to where you started. And so it's not that the nutrition changes are driving metabolic changes. It's that are you know that you're forcing your your metabolism up, it's that by getting back to neutral energy balance, your metabolism will drift upward. So you're not trying to kind of force it to do anything, you're just getting to maintenance and if it responds and starts drifting up, you are catching up to your increase in metabolic rate rather than driving it up from proactive food changes.
29:30
Before my coaching session with Philip, I was really struggling with staying consistent with my nutrition. Phillip really showed me the importance of being consistent day to day, he also helped me see that it's not a bad thing to take a rest day. He really helped me get in that more positive headspace of a rest day being something really good for me. I've been doing this for a month now. And I'm finally starting to see some progress and my numbers and I'm really excited about that and I just appreciate so much The help that Philip has given me, he's always willing to answer questions to offer resources that are totally free and very, very helpful. So I just want to say how much I appreciate that. Thanks, Phil.
Philip Pape 30:15
Yeah, it's pretty crazy how somewhat consistent This is, especially with an individual, when they've gone on multiple cycles of gaining and losing how, you know, I know for me, personally, I lose 600 calories on my expenditure. And then boop, pops right back. And all of a sudden, I need to really up my calories when we go. And so tracking that is extremely important for it. Cool. So what about the flux aspect of this? Because I'm really curious about energy expenditure and flux, which, you know, the science behind that informs a lot of your work, I think, and I'm just curious about that concept. So tell us about it.
Dr. Eric Trexler 30:49
Yeah, so energy flux is kind of the idea that, you know, we can look at energy balance, as just, you know, calories in versus calories out intake versus expenditure. And if you get to zero, you're in neutral energy balance. But the idea of energy flux is more looking at, you know, what is the absolute amount of energy kind of going through the system. So what that means is, if you're very, very sedentary, you know, you might have maintenance at a certain calorie level, let's say, it's, you know, I don't know, 2200, obviously, it's going to depend on your body size, but someone who is very, very active, their maintenance level is going to be much higher. And so, you know, if they're maintaining at 2800, instead of 2200, they're having more energy flux, because their energy expenditure is higher, than they are going to be consuming more energy to achieve any particular body composition goal. And so what's really interesting is that, you know, some folks have posited that a high state of energy flux tends to be just kind of generally better. You know, in terms of cardiometabolic outcomes associated with with doing more exercise, people have talked about high energy flux states being better for kind of long term weight loss outcomes, long term body composition outcomes with weight loss attempts. So energy flux is basically talking about not just where you're at in terms of net energy balance, but also how much energy are you can? Are you burning through on a daily basis? Kind of shifting that entire equation up or down? Relative to your daily energy use?
Philip Pape 32:31
And is it better? To say,
Dr. Eric Trexler 32:35
you know, it's tough, I think, when I'm talking to somebody with a particular goal, and when we're talking about energy flux, we're really just talking about physical activity level, like, that's really what's going on here that that's the lever we can pull, if we're trying to manipulate energy flux, or, you know, just energy expenditure, and kind of shift that entire energy balance equation up or down. When someone asks, you know, how much cardio do I need to do? I mean, you can get into real, you can get very, very lean doing minimal cardio, you're going to need some resistance training, if you want to retain muscle mass. But the question is, is there any benefit of having some extra cardio in there along the way, depending on the goal, typically, kind of, you know, so people tend to studies tend to find, I should say, that long term weight loss outcomes do seem to just be better when people maintain high physical activity levels, I don't necessarily know if that's because of energy flux, I think it might just be a simple indicator of, you know, sustainable behavior change that he puts on monitoring my health behaviors, I'm engaging in them, part of my weight loss journey was doing some exercise, and therefore I can maintain better when I exercise. So the long term data in terms of weight loss and weight maintenance do look better, in people who do a decent amount of exercise doesn't mean you have to do a ton. But for that particular outcome, you know, being in a physically active high energy flux state is a positive thing. You know, the same thing goes, the cardio metabolic benefits of exercise, totally unrelated to weight loss are immense. And being in a high energy flux state is going to be better for that. But, you know, people ask, well, do I have to do cardio to achieve a particular physique? That then my answer would be? No, you know, most people, if you're comfortable reducing your calories enough to get there, and you're lifting weights, you don't have to be you know, doing a bunch of cardio or getting a bunch of steps in in order to achieve those types of results.
Philip Pape 34:41
For sure. And I guess I didn't realize I was basically asking the question, should we do more cardio when you were talking energy flux, I hadn't totally closed the loop on that's, that's effectively what we're saying. Right? So use this terms and pretty much confuse everybody and we're like that all we mean is move more like just move more and you're gonna burn burn more calories, and that causes more fluctuation in energy at that age. Under level.
Dr. Eric Trexler 35:00
Yeah, and one thing I should also mention is, this is really important, doesn't get talked about a lot. But physical activity, like I said, it seems to correlate with long term outcomes really well. The other thing is there is an interesting relationship with physical activity level and appetite regulation, what they find is that when you increase from very, very sedentary to moderately active, it tends to help with appetite regulation, and actually kerbs over eating to some extent, what it does is it re couples your appetite to your energy expenditure, what we see is in very, very sedentary people, that becomes a little bit uncoupled and eating behaviors and appetite are kind of driven by more hedonic drivers, rather than, you know, just I need energy to account for my expenditure. So what we find is that we are kind of shifting appetite regulation away from key Donek drivers and toward, you know, just kind of pure energy balance as the main driver. And then, of course, as you start to go from moderately active to extremely active, you eat more, because you're exercising like crazy. And, and you get sense. Yeah, so. So there are benefits, yeah, benefits going from very sedentary to moderate. But once you're moderate, and above that, it's all pretty much the same.
Philip Pape 36:20
And isn't that the case with just about any health promoting activity, one tends to drive the other. And it's why wherever you can start, you know, when you're listening, we talked about this all the time, wherever you can start today start because I might start driving these other behaviors. Okay, so I want to talk about plant based stuff. So plant based protein and some other things, right, because I understand you're fully plant based now. Indeed, yeah. Let's assume the listener already knows the basics of protein, like they need enough protein they need to spread throughout the day, they want a variety of sources for that protein for a healthy dietary pattern. So with that assumption in place, how much should we be concerned about the differences between animal and plant derived proteins? And where I'm going with this is there's a lot of lot of ways you can measure these differences, right? You could talk about the amino acid profiles, quality digestibility the effect of health markers if we're looking at cardiovascular health outcomes, like hypertrophy. So what's the practical stance on all these differences in someone's just trying to plan what's on their plate?
Dr. Eric Trexler 37:19
Yeah, I mean, if you're getting plenty of protein on a daily basis, I really wouldn't worry about it much at all. You know, when we look at the studies that are trying to find the kind of optimal protein intake, you know, I mean, most Americans get a decent percentage of their protein from plants anyway, those are the people doing these studies. And then when you get outside of America, the percentage gets even higher of the percentage of total protein coming from plant based sources. So that's already baked into the literature, which is something that a lot of people don't don't really talk about. You know, depending on what country you're in, it could be like a 4060 split or like a 6040. Split. But no, no, wait
Philip Pape 37:59
a minute, that is a little surprising. So are you saying that in America, the standard, the average population gets more than protein from plants, but it's because their protein intake is fairly low? And then they tend to add more animals? I
Dr. Eric Trexler 38:11
think, I think in America, I have to recheck the paper that is buzzing around in my head right now. But I think it's I think it's 40% coming from plants. Yeah, not not the 60. I think it's 40% plants. But there are some countries where it's inverted. And I think as much as 70% of protein is coming from plants, so But But basically, the point is, when people see, oh, you need this many grams of protein per day, they kind of assume that it has to be these high quality proteins. But it's in a study where if we just want to be really lazy with the numbers, maybe about half of the protein these people are eating is coming from plant based sources, you know,
Philip Pape 38:52
that includes grains and things like people don't always think about Yeah,
Dr. Eric Trexler 38:55
yeah, they're not all eating tofu, right? Because if you're not a vegan who would, right? It's grown on me. It's grown on me. But I have plenty of omnivorous friends who think I'm insane for how much tofu terrible depending on how you, you know, like anything. Yeah, but, but anyway, you know, if you're eating plenty of protein, it really doesn't matter. The place where it really matters is if you are on a very low protein diet, and sometimes people for medical reasons will need to adhere to a low protein diet. It's not typical, but it does happen. Or if you're someone who just you're like, I really don't like aiming for these high daily protein intakes. In that case for hypertrophy, we do see differences. You know, if you're on a low protein intake, someone who's eating a lot of high quality animal based sources, probably will do a little better than someone who's eating exclusively, you know, lower quality plant based sources. So that is the spot where it matters. But as we start getting into daily protein intakes that are up around 1.4 Certainly 1.6 grams per kilogram per day of total protein intake. Once we get up to there, we're seeing these differences are essentially totally gone in terms of hypertrophy.
Philip Pape 40:09
What about for overall health? Like, I definitely have seen studies that seem to support shifting to more plant based sources for cardiovascular health, for example. And I know as an as an omnivore myself, I do eat a lot of animal sources and wondering, should I continue to work on adding more, you know, plants, other than for the reasons we should? Anyway, nutrients and diversity and fiber and all that stuff?
Dr. Eric Trexler 40:30
Yeah, I mean, when you look at the I try to look at diets in terms of dietary patterns, you know, and when you look at the dietary patterns that seem to be compatible with just very, very good health outcomes, three that come to mind are medicine, the Mediterranean diet pattern, the DASH diet pattern, and a plant based diet pattern. And so the fact that the Mediterranean diet and the DASH diet both seem totally fine and quite good with long term outcomes leads me to believe that an omnivore if they're just focused on health outcomes, they don't necessarily need to say, Oh, I really need to get more plant based. I need to swap out my animal based proteins. I think what's what we're really seeing there is when you look at a diet pattern, that that's like the DASH diet, or the Mediterranean diet, it's just a well rounded diet, you're getting plenty of fiber, you're getting plenty of vegetables, you're getting plenty of phytonutrients, you're getting all these things that you need. And you're not over eating super fatty meats on a regular basis. And I think that's really the key. So if you're someone who your omnivorous diet involves a lot of refined grains, a lot of really fatty meats and very few vegetables, you would benefit immensely if you swapped out some of the really fatty meats with some plant based protein sources that are probably going to bring in more phytonutrients and more fiber into your diet. But if you're eating a really well rounded, omnivorous diet that's even remotely reminiscent of a Mediterranean diet or a DASH diet, you're probably not going to see much of a difference swapping out your protein sources.
Philip Pape 42:06
Right. Okay. Those are good benchmarks. I've heard you talk about that before. And I've used those references as well, because they're nice go twos. You know, as much as we stay away from a lot of the names diets, those are pretty good ones. So what about studies that look at omnivorous versus vegan or vegetarian diets are unable to account for all the confounding factors were kind of the normal curve of the omnivorous diet has not as health promoting of a population as people who actively try to eat vegan? I mean, at least that's the assumption I'm making. Does it get skewed? Because of that?
Dr. Eric Trexler 42:37
Yeah. I mean, they try. Right. So statistical adjustment is a very nuanced topic, and it is a very, inexact science. So these studies, if they're if they're done well, they will try to statistically adjust and account for some of those healthy behaviors that do, in aggregate seem to differ when we compare plant based diet or to an omnivore. Are the statistical approaches perfect? No, they never are. And so those kinds of questions do tend to linger. So they might go and say, Hey, we adjusted for BMI and physical activity per week. And, you know, all these other things, smoking status, the whole deal. They do their best, generally speaking, though, when we look at studies that are really, really well controlled, that do a good job trying to parse out some of those confounding variables, plant based diets versus omnivorous diets, you know, sometimes for it depends what health outcome, right? I mean, there's a lot of different things that that can make you sick or kill you. And the effect for one is not going to be the effect for another But broadly speaking, plant based diet seem to do either they either have similar outcomes or slightly better outcomes compared to omnivorous diets. But how many omnivores are eating a DASH diet pattern or, you know, adhering to a Mediterranean? A lot of times the, I mean, the omnivorous diet is kind of the default diet. Right? Yeah, that sounds a Western diet. Reverse diet, right. So I would venture to say if if you kind of sorted out all the people who were on kind of some of those like very Western diet patterns that you know, have a lot of what we might colloquial meats and things. Yeah, yeah, processed meats, you know, a ton of added sugars, things like that. I think that's where you would start to see those differences really just disappear.
Philip Pape 44:29
Yeah, cuz I think this is where you see studies on artificial sweeteners, seed oils, you know, the big hot topics today. And it gets so thorny when you look at that because you're wondering if it's just, you know, people have healthy dietary patterns, or people who don't, and they're seeking to be healthier, right? And in case of artificial sweeteners, right, you get all these compounding factors. So okay, I wanted to ask you one one other question about dieting, and that was the psychological aspects of dieting, specifically tracking because there's always a little bit of controversy and there seem to be camps out out there, when it comes to different nutrition coaches and whatnot, do you track I'm anti tracking and this and that, for me personally, I've seen and I've even had some friends who were, you know, maybe resistant at first and I gently asked them to try it out. And they're like, you know, this actually gives me an increased level of awareness. And I can track things like fiber micronutrients and all that. So it ends up being a powerful motivator for some people. And for others, it doesn't work. So well. What are your thoughts on all these aspects of dieting, the psychological aspects in the context of tracking?
Dr. Eric Trexler 45:28
Yeah, so tracking is interesting, because there's a lot of things we can track, you know, so the kind of classic approach is tracking calories or macros, right? carbs, fats, proteins. And we do have some research indicating that in randomised controlled trials, tracking your food does not seem to cause disordered eating. If you are already highly predisposed to disordered eating, it could certainly cause symptoms to manifest, you know, it can kind of tap into some of those underlying predispositions. But broadly speaking, you know, I don't feel uncomfortable with someone who has no eating disorder history saying, Yeah, let's go ahead and track calories and see how we do. But having said that, it's not the only way to track you know, so a lot of times tracking calories, oddly enough, will bring people a lot of psychological peace. It'll bring them calmness, it's kind of like when you've kind of been worried about your finances, and you finally work out your budget. And you say, No, I know, I can afford that. Because like, I literally crunched the numbers, and I feel good about spending money on myself, because I know it fits my budget. It's a similar thing with calories, where someone looks at that, you know, something that's maybe a little bit sugary, and instead of wondering, is this what's going to hold me back, they say, No, I know, I can fit that in, because I did my my calorie budget. But for some folks, you know, tracking calories, and macros is not going to be the way to go. You can track bigger picture food categories, you can track, some people just do protein and fiber, if I hit those, I'll be good. Sometimes it's food groups, you know, I got my four servings of fruits and my five servings of vegetables, right. And then you can even track getting way into a different realm, you can track elements related to mindful eating, right. So just tracking things like subjectively how you felt before, during and after a meal, what you were focused on during that meal, whether or not you were distracted as you were eating. So tracking can take so many different forms. And ultimately, if you're a coach, working with someone, or if you're someone working with a coach, tracking something is going to be helpful, because it's going to allow for some degree of transmitting data data back and forth. But if you're a coach out there listening, I would encourage you work with your clients and figure out what the right thing to track is, could be calories and macros for many people it is it's a highly effective strategy. But for some folks, you might find that tracking other things, or a combination of things actually leads to to better outcomes for that person.
Philip Pape 48:00
Do we know if there if there are studies that look at the reasons people don't like tracking certain with certain methods, like calories and macros? Are there good. You know, histograms, you know, that show us that these are the most common reasons, and therefore, you know, that's where we can tackle the kind of resistance to that, for folks that want to do it, but feel like, it's not for them just yet.
Dr. Eric Trexler 48:22
I'd be stunned if the research hasn't been done, but I've not seen it. Okay. But I can tell you, I can throw my two cents in there as someone who's been in this space for a while. It's I mean, tracking calories is not a convenient thing to do in most cases, right? So sure, a lot of times it's, they don't want to deal with the hassle of it. And for some folks, you know, like I said, if you're kind of, you know, for some folks who have concerns about body image, it can kind of increase awareness of it kind of leads into that, you know, awareness can be good. But if it goes from awareness to fixation, then action starts to be counterproductive. So for some people just with their kind of psychological makeup, as they start tracking things, it's difficult to track and say, Oh, well, now I know and then move on. It becomes something that causes a lot of fixation, kind of being hyper focused on it, and then it starts to really impact quality of life. So I think those are probably the two biggest sticking points. Fair enough.
Philip Pape 49:24
Do you have a couple minutes for like, couple more questions? Yeah, absolutely. Okay. I was curious what what area of research is really exciting to you right now? Either personally, or something new. That's going on out there?
Dr. Eric Trexler 49:35
That's easy. Yeah. If you asked me this, two years ago, three years ago, four years ago, I wouldn't have had a good answer. But in the last year or two, there's been a lot of really interesting work coming out, looking at exercise energy compensation. So you might have heard of the constrained energy expenditure model popularized in the book burn by by Herman Ponsor. The research in that area is is fascinating. I mean, it's, I felt really lucky when I was doing my PhD that around that time, the dietary nitrate supplementation research, there were some gaps to really fill in there. And I said, Cool. This is a spot where I can jump in, make an impact, and really, you know, answer some interesting questions. Ever since doing my dissertation in that work. The nitrate stuff doesn't really catch my eye as much, I think we've largely kind of got an idea of what its potential is, seeing this exercise, energy compensation research come out has has really gotten me excited. There's some cool stuff that's been done. And there are still big important gaps to fill that will get filled over the next probably five years or so. A lot of times with research questions, I'll tell people wait 25 years and we'll know Right? With this. It's like no, this is happening right now. It's changing. You know, every six months, there's a new paper that says, Wow, that's, that's an important wrinkle that really kind of changes the landscape here.
Philip Pape 50:59
Is there a particular paper that comes to mind and we should all go out and check out?
Dr. Eric Trexler 51:02
I think there's a paper by Karo, CA, r e a u, I think is how it's spelled. That talks. I think that's probably my favorite paper about exercise energy compensation. Ponsor has a review paper from 2016. I forget the title, but it's just kind of a a nice overview of the constrained energy expenditure model. It that's kind of my place to start, if you want to say what's the stuff all about. And then there was a recent paper by Eric Willis and colleagues where they found that compensation appears to be heightened in people who are in negative energy balance versus neutral or positive, meaning that you are getting less bang for your buck, in terms of exercising for, you know, to increase your energy expenditure, if you happen to be dieting, and so that certain people were not what they want to hear. But But totally, I mean, totally makes sense, totally lines up with some of my observations in the trenches, so to speak. So it's it's a really exciting area of research. That is
Philip Pape 52:04
fascinating. I'm hoping some some of the technology eventually incorporate some of these, you know, findings as we move forward. All right. So I like to ask this of all guests. And that is, is there any question you wish I'd asked you? And what is your answer?
Dr. Eric Trexler 52:17
Yes. It's a question that I wish was getting asked a lot more. So a lot of times I talk about metabolic adaptation when I go on podcast, or I talk about tangential kind of topics, right? So like refeeds, diet breaks, reverse dieting, all these things that popped up because of concern about metabolic adaptation. But the one question I people ask me, what is metabolic adaptation? What causes it? How severe is it in magnitude? How long does it last? The one question that I wish people asked me more was, How worried should I be about it? Because I can answer all the other stuff and say, well, you're it's probably going to happen in this context. And it'll be about this big. And it probably will reverse if the following things occur. But the question of, should I worry about it? In the way I view the literature, the answer is certainly no. It's good to know about it, it's good to plan for it, it's good to understand that that is a thing that you're going to, to wrestle with if you have an ambitious weight loss goal. But what we what we find in the literature is, basal metabolic rate is not predictive of weight loss success. The magnitude of metabolic adaptation that you experience really is not that predictive of weight loss success, it occurs and it the amount varies from person to person, but the people who avoid metabolic adaptation effectively, are not necessarily the people who have more success with their weight loss, or their long term maintenance of that weight loss. There are so many more important factors impacting the success of a diet phase and the subsequent maintenance. So with all the questions I get about metabolic adaptation, I, I think they're interesting. I like talking about them. They're fascinating. They're, they're informative, and like I said, it is good to know about it and plan for it. But I wish I had more people who would say, by the way, is this something I should lose sleep over? You know, should I be worried about it? Do I need to attenuate or avoid it or mitigate it? Because the answer to all that stuff is really no, just know that it'll occur? budget for it. And when things start slowing down on your diet, now you know why, and we can act accordingly.
Philip Pape 54:27
That's why I asked you the question, Eric, so I'm glad you brought it up. I'm glad you brought it up. We shouldn't be worried about it. Just like we shouldn't be worried if it's getting our metabolism being damaged or broken or something like that, those concepts and just plan for it. I'm a nerd on this. I nerd out on this stuff. I love the graphs and everything in the following it and see what happens. But you're right, it just it comes back. Right. You. You deal with it and it comes back. You're all good. We're resilient human beings. So thank you, man. Thank you so much for this last question. Where do you want listeners to go and find out more about you?
Dr. Eric Trexler 54:55
Yeah, the best place to do that would just be Instagram. My handle is at Trexler Fitness. And if you want to learn more about the mass Research Review, which I mentioned in this episode, you can go to Mass research review.com.
Philip Pape 55:07
And if you're a student by any chance, you can get a little bit of a discount on that as well. So go check it out.
Dr. Eric Trexler 55:12
That is true. There's a student discount. And yeah, every month we put out on the first of the month, we've never been late. It's about 100 pages worth of the newest and most useful research in exercise and nutrition. We talk about all the stuff we talked about in today's episode, and obviously plenty more,
Philip Pape 55:30
plenty more almost almost so much. I wonder every month I crack it open like a gift and like which 1am I going to focus on this this month. So good stuff you guys are doing out there. Eric, thank you so much for coming on. I'm gonna add those links in the show notes. And I appreciate you coming on the show. All right, thank you. If you've been inspired by today's interview, and are ready to take action and build momentum on your health and fitness journey, just schedule a free 30 minute nutrition momentum call with me using the link in my show notes. I promise not to sell or pitch you on anything, but I will help you gain some perspective and guidance so we can get you on the right track toward looking and feeling your best
Ep 75: How to End the Extreme Diet Cycle and Embrace Balance with Lisa Franz
Today I’m excited to welcome nutrition expert Lisa Franz to the show. Lisa and I will discuss the importance of breaking the extreme diet cycle, and how to find a sustainable and balanced approach to nutrition, training, and lifestyle. Lisa will reveal how to maintain a healthy lifestyle as we age, strategies for being consistent while traveling, and principles of effective training. She will also share her personal experiences and insights on how to create a balanced life without feeling guilty, deprived, or sacrificing your well-being.
Today I’m excited to welcome nutrition expert Lisa Franz to the show. Lisa and I met through podcasting and the nutrition coaching industry, and I had the pleasure of recording an interview on her show, The Nutrition and Life Podcast.
Lisa and I will discuss the importance of breaking the extreme diet cycle, and how to find a sustainable and balanced approach to nutrition, training, and lifestyle. Lisa will reveal how to maintain a healthy lifestyle as we age, strategies for being consistent while traveling, and principles of effective training. She will also share her personal experiences and insights on how to create a balanced life without feeling guilty, deprived, or sacrificing your well-being.
Lisa has a master's in Exercise Science, Health Promotion, and Nutrition and is the CEO and founder of Nutrition Coaching and Life. She's also the host of The Nutrition and Life Podcast.
Lisa teaches people to navigate their own nutrition so that they know how much and what to eat, whether they want to lose weight, gain muscle, or recomp. She believes that learning to work nutrition around your life is one of the most important aspects of this journey. Nutrition should enhance one's life, not make it harder!
__________
Book a FREE 30-minute call with Philip here.
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Today you’ll learn all about:
[2:13] Lisa's personal values and backstory
[3:30] The importance of learning about nutrition
[6:45] Finding a sustainable approach to nutrition
[9:19] Exiting the extreme diet cycle
[16:44] How to find your individual sustainable approach to nutrition
[20:10] "Balance" in diet and lifestyle
[28:12] Balancing life, work, and physical health
[32:28] Max thanks Philip for helping him prioritize his health and dropping 45 Lbs
[35:55] Training principles to live by
[43:08] Nutrition and training advice
[52:25] Nutrition and training advice as we age
[55:15] Lisa's plans and projects
[57:11] Lisa's personal struggles
[1:01:41] Where you can learn more about Lisa
[1:02:20] Outro
Episode resources:
Lisa's website: Nutrition Coaching and Life
Lisa on Instagram: @nutritioncoachingandlife
FREE 30-minute results breakthrough session with Philip ⬇️
https://witsandweights.com/free-call
Learn about 1-on-1 coaching ⬇️
https://witsandweights.com/coaching
Ask Philip anything ⬇️
IG: @witsandweights
Email: philip@witsandweights.com
Podcast: Q&A voicemail
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Transcript
Lisa Franz 00:00
I think people sometimes struggle with is when they hear a your diet needs to feel sustainable, but then we put them in a calorie deficit. So by definition that shouldn't be sustainable because they're consuming less. So even though I try to show people Hey, the style of eating should feel sustainable, but your quote unquote complaining that you're really hungry and it doesn't feel sustainable.
Philip Pape 00:27
Welcome to the Wits & Weights podcast. I'm your host, Philip pape, and this twice a week podcast is dedicated to helping you achieve physical self mastery by getting stronger, optimizing your nutrition and upgrading your body composition. We'll uncover science backed strategies for movement, metabolism, muscle and mindset with a skeptical eye on the fitness industry so you can look and feel your absolute best. Let's dive right in. Wits & Weights community Welcome to another episode of the Wits & Weights Podcast. Today I'm excited to welcome nutrition expert Lisa France to the show, Lisa and I met through podcasting and the nutrition coaching industry. And I had the pleasure of recording an interview on her show the nutrition and life podcast, Lisa and I will discuss the importance of breaking the extreme diet cycle, how to find sustainability and balance when it comes to nutrition training lifestyle. Lisa will reveal how to maintain a healthy lifestyle as we age strategies for being consistent while traveling and principles of effective training. She's also going to share her personal experiences and insights on how to create a balanced life without feeling guilty, deprived or sacrificing your well being. Lisa has a master's in exercise science, health promotion and nutrition and is the CEO and founder of nutrition coaching and life. She's also the host of the nutrition and life podcast. Lisa teaches people to navigate their own nutrition so that they know how much and what to eat, whether they want to lose weight gain muscle or recomp. She believes that learning to work nutrition around your life is one of the most important aspects throughout this journey. Nutrition should enhance one's life not make it harder. Lisa, it's great to see you again. And I want to welcome you to the show.
Lisa Franz 02:06
I'm very excited to be here. Thanks for having me. Absolutely.
Philip Pape 02:10
I'm also looking forward to this conversation. And I want to kind of take a step back and ask you about your personal values like what is it that drove you to start helping people navigate their nutrition, and then eventually start nutrition coaching in life and your podcast?
Lisa Franz 02:25
That's a great question. And to make it really short, and it sounds quite cliche, but still, my personal values and also the values of the company nutrition coaching and life is simply to help people improve their lives, whether that is through physical changes, through getting them to be more active or mindset changes, or simply learning to be more present and living every day as if it was, you know, the best day. That is those are all great strategies, but simply to put it in a nutshell, to help people improve their lives.
Philip Pape 03:04
And it couldn't be more simple than that on one hand, and on the other hand, people struggle with this right? And, you know, one of the things I admire about you and your work and your podcast is you focus on helping people understand the What the Why the how, and I do listen your podcasts now and one of the most recent episodes you have is about protein powders. And sometimes you get into these technical topics others are a little more general or about mindset and and so on. So besides other coaches like me who geek out on that stuff all the time. Why is it important that everyday people who are just trying to like you said improve their lives, learn about these details and get educated.
Lisa Franz 03:42
Because in the end, we only have one life and if we don't enjoy our lives and I truly believe that we need to continuously work on improving ourselves in order to enjoy our life fully and long term. Yes, we can have immediate pleasure but it's different. If you have long term goals, long term visions, and you continuously climb a ladder as opposed to having these highs and lows. And I think in order to do so nutrition plays a huge role or how we feel it provides us with mental clarity it provides us to be able to perform as best as we can whether that is mentally or physically and I myself have experienced what it's like to feel like nutrition is consuming too much of your life too much too much of your thoughts in essence and also what it is like to feel restricted through nutrition so I as you introduced me nicely. I believe nutrition should enhance one's life and should enrich experiences as we will possibly get a little bit into I myself I travel a lot. I love exploring different cultures. I believe food is so much more than just nourishment and It is social aspect, it is community, it is tradition, it is culture. And if we do it wrongly, then of course, all of that can lead to us being overweight or having a quote unquote, sugar addiction or you know, whatever it might be. And then eventually, we don't enjoy food as much anymore or at the same time, the background that I have is more from like a restrictive side. So I always thought, I need to eat less, I need to train way too hard. I went through various, very restrictive diets, like cutting out carbs, completely paleo, really low fat, like whatever it might have been. And I always thought this cannot be it food is so amazing. Why do I have to like, completely restrict myself and I cannot have that cake at my friend's birthday party or whatever, because I'm low carb, like, and eventually I found out more or learned more rather about calorie balance and how it really all just comes mostly down to that, yes, of course, food quality matters, but still mostly comes down to, to calories in calories out. And I found immense freedom with that. And so I guess that is part of the reason why I just want to share that with people to help them enjoy everyday life while getting the most out of it and find that freedom as well.
Philip Pape 06:28
Yeah, you touched on so many themes there that will resonate with the listener and myself. And as you and I talked on your show that we've you go through years, maybe decades of experimenting with all these things, because you may not have the information, or you just haven't had the clarity. And a lot of what you talked about there was shifting even how we look at food, right? We look at it as a form of fuel of performance. You talked about mental clarity, not restricting and having freedom. And the irony here is I often hear from people who are maybe a little bit ignorant about it or having, you know, been struggling, that the types of tools we use, whether it's counting macros or something else seem restrictive and seem difficult. And yet those are the very things that teach us the skill to give us the freedom, would you would you kind of agree with that philosophy?
Lisa Franz 07:21
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, it even though I just said, you know, everything, more or less everything in moderation, and I believe believe we should enjoy things, there has to be some form of healthy restriction. And, of course, the research is very clear on this also that technically, any kind of diet, quote unquote, works when it comes to weight loss, and people should just stick the one that they can't pick the one that they can stick with the best. So that's not to say that for someone else, a low carb or keto or whatever diet doesn't work, it just really was not for me. And so again, you mentioned the point of education and how I like to explain things to people. And I think most people are just going to adhere or they're going to adhere long term and adhere better if they understand why they do what they do. And like you mentioned to and what sort of tools they have the possibility to have some of the reason why low carb was so restrictive for me was because I thought that that was the only way I could lose weight. And I thought that that's what I had to do. And then when someone explained, you can restrict carbs, but you could also restrict fat. And in the end, you know, pick your calories, pick your evil, and it doesn't have to be the one thing or the one day and in for the rest of your life. You can choose your tools. And I was like, Whoa, that's like mind blowing. Okay, I didn't know I had all these different options. For sure.
Philip Pape 08:47
Yeah, absolutely. And you know, you also hear it since you talked about the low carb and low fat or you can go anyway, I think there's also besides misinformation, there's almost deliberate strawman arguments that are made for some of these things like, well, you know, if you cut out carbs, you're gonna lose weight. And when you look at how we define carbs, that's where we get into tricky situations, right? Where somebody says, Yeah, look, pizza, and doughnuts are carbs and like, Well, wait, it's not just carbs, carbs and fat, and it's highly palatable and very dense and all you start adding all these parameters to them. So, but people then gravitate to these things, because the they're kind of easy to understand and grasp onto. And but then before long, you find out that Oh, my God, I have to constantly like, say no to things and be the weird person at these social situations. So this extreme dieting and this cycle of dieting, right, because it's not just one extreme diet, probably if you've tried one, you've tried many over and over again. What are some of the signs that someone is just stuck there and spinning their wheels? And then how can they break free and do what you're saying and find a sustainable approach?
Lisa Franz 09:51
I love this question. And I think deep down even though many people are perhaps not, not always that honest. With themselves in the sense of how unhappy they possibly are with this up and down, but of course, a we're gonna see some physical disadvantages as in, weight goes up and down all the time. And I mean, who honestly is really happy with that if it's unintentional, especially if you if you constantly like over the holidays, you gain your 15 pounds or whatever, and then you crash diet, and then you just for your next vacation, and then you gain the gain 20 pounds back. And for most people also, it's not just a yo yo back and forth. It's also a steady but slow, incremental incline or increase over the years. And that adds up to poor health. And, again, if we're honest with ourselves, when we have those extra 20 pounds, we're probably not feeling that great in the gym. And if we're honest with ourselves, when we're that super restrictive. On the other end, we're probably also not sleeping that great, maybe not in the best mood, maybe not covering all our micronutrients. So in the end, it comes down to I think, realizing that for most people, at least a general moderation where you don't have these huge fluctuations is probably better, physically, but also mentally. And most people that come to us, they have recognized that more from a well, I guess, from both sides, but also from a mental perspective where they just say like, I don't, I don't want to feel guilty about eating that or I still want to go on vacation at the same time. But what I have done in the past with doesn't that strict diet, I couldn't do that. And so like we hear all these things, and yeah, my methods or what has worked for me, and for most of our clients also as well as that education piece that I mentioned earlier in the sense of, it's really don't, let's not look at food as good or bad. It's all just food, right? There are things we should have more of because there are more nutritious, denser in micronutrients, and probably not as dense in macronutrients. And then there are other foods that are should be that should be more like the occasional type food. And but in the end, you're technically quote unquote allowed to eat anything that you want. And you have this in that budget, just manage it like you would with an income or so. So that's part number one for a lot of people, especially if they come from this year long, restrictive mindset. Of course, it doesn't click right away. I mean, an attitude towards food that you have possibly adopted from when you were a child onwards. Um, you know, if your mom always used to tell you, Oh, carbs are bad. 20 years later, just because I tell you, carbs are just food. It's not going to suddenly be like, oh, yeah, okay, cool. I'm just gonna eat all the parts.
Philip Pape 12:52
Cool. Cool. One out of the last 100 Fitness influencers, they said says this different thing, it's going to work.
Lisa Franz 12:58
Exactly. No. So the, the key here, it really is a slow and incremental, I guess almost demonstration of its okay, so let's just say if someone starts with really low calories, like maybe, just because people always use that number, 1200 calories, whatever. And I calculate what their calories should actually be, I'm not going to say the next day from tomorrow onwards, you have to eat 2100 calories, that would be absolutely insane. And most people would not do that. So you know, we might slowly taper up those calories. On the other hand, also, when it comes to food quality, or eating out and fears around that, I might encourage them and be like, hey, once or twice a week, I do want you to go out with your husband or with your friends and have a meal out I don't just want you to eat at home all the time, because you're afraid of gaining weight from eating out. What we can do is that you show me where you plan to go. And I would show you you know what is possibly a good pic or how you could estimate for how much that is etc. or small, quote unquote treat foods or foods that they're specifically afraid of instead of them thinking, I'm off my diet. Now I'm going to have three pieces of cake. Maybe we can just get into the habit of like sharing a piece of dessert with your husband on day nine versus so it really is that slow. Taking that fear away, and then perhaps you step on the scale the next day or two days later, and you see like, oh, okay, it's actually still pretty much the same. We're still trending down even though I ate what I thought was that so like I, for instance, used to believe again, carbs would inherently lead to weight gain. And yes, I mean, of course if we look at them, cars do anything to water etc. Initially, an increase in carbs can make the scale go up, but it's not fat weight. So learning that and seeing the data that's where I think data It comes in so handy where you can be like, Hey, let's look at those correlations. Actually, truthfully, you're the scale is still trending down. So yeah. takes time.
Philip Pape 15:10
Yeah. And you just, you just laid out like five very, really very good models and ways to think of this because 99% of this game is up here, right? It's up in the if it's up in the brain, and a lot of what you were suggesting, let's get into specifics. You said, Think of it like a budget, right? It's managing like an income. And I love that analogy I use all the time myself, some people have challenged me on it, because yeah, there's differences between every analogy, but the idea that with a budget, you can spend your money however you want, but you only have this much money, and you only have this, you know, these buckets. That's a great one, you also said that your attitude ingrained from childhood is, it's like a slow ship that you have to turn around, it's very difficult. So we can't expect overnight success, which led your next concept of slow and incremental demonstration of it's okay of taking that fear away, I'm just, I'm parroting this stuff back to you. Because it's gold, like for the listener to realize that this is not a quick fix. But it's totally doable. And when you say slow years, you're still only talking a few months, you don't even a few weeks, in some cases with the right coaching, which in the scheme of life is a drop in the bucket. So I love it on and then meal planning and so on. We talked about that a lot in this show totally aligned there. And the correlations, you mentioned data and looking at correlations, your weight might go up and down two pounds, you know, one day to the next. But what's happened in your waist size? How do you feel? What are your what's your pant size? You know, did you eat like a slice of cake and actually lose weight? Like you can't, you know, you have to figure it all out. So I'm just I love this. Lisa, I'm just restating things. And I'll get to a question now. So, okay, so we're talking about sustainability. And we talked about missing information. So is, are their content? This is a very individualized approach. Right? So sustainability itself is a flexible word for the individual. Would you agree? And how do you find how does someone find their form of sustainability?
Lisa Franz 17:02
It certainly is incredibly individual. And what I think people sometimes struggle with is when they hear about your diet needs to feel sustainable, but then we put them in a calorie deficit. So by definition that shouldn't be sustainable, because they're consuming less. So even though I try to show people hate, the style of eating should feel sustainable, but your quote unquote, complaining that you're really hungry, and it doesn't feel sustainable. So while we're trying to lose weight, still acknowledging that hunger in a dieting phase is to be expected, even if it is the quote unquote, right diet for you. Um, it's almost as more of a signal of like, Hey, this is working, your body's actually burning more than what would your intaking. So we cannot fully say like in a dieting phase, you should, it should feel sustainable. But nonetheless, again, the style of eating. So like the foods that you're eating overall in the method should feel sustainable. And I think a really important part here is the consistency part. So learning for people that it's okay to be consistent 80 to 90% of the time, and those other 10 to 20% of the time, not feeling like they messed up not feeling like, okay, now I can take the whole week off, not feeling like they need to be perfect all the time, I think that can take a lot of pressure off. And at the same time, that can give us a lot of content contingencies. So if we have both of that, if we just realize it really does come down to what we do the majority of the time, and if every now and then we go above calories, if every now and then we're not meeting our protein needs of every now and then food quality was a little bit lower because you're traveling or whatever that is okay. But don't let that trip you up and just keep going. So consistency and confidence and sustainability, I think they just go hand in hand. And once you learn that, it really doesn't have to be you don't have to be perfect. Nobody is perfect. Nobody can be perfect all the time. I know we hear it all the time. But when it comes to nutrition, I think still most people have that picture in mind that they that we always feel need to feel great and need to, you know, like, put the best effort forward. It's just it just doesn't happen.
Philip Pape 19:25
Oh, you said so many great things there as well. And the one I really took from this was how, if if you're in a fat loss phase, it is true. We couldn't be in a fat loss phase forever. That's not what we're talking about sustainability. And you're right, you have symptoms like hunger and so on. But you mentioned that the principles that the types of foods, those are what's sustainable, and another way to look at it that that rang true to me was we use this periodization of fat loss and maintenance and muscle building to also make it sustainable as opposed to just randomly going through life. reacting all the time and feeling like you've had no hope. So that's what I got from at least and I know you hopefully the listener hears that. That's very powerful, very powerful statement. So then that leads to maybe balance when we talk about, you said, being able to eat whatever you want, but not indiscriminately. There's some restraint to it. And you also talked about the mental side of it, and the training and the periodization. So how do you define balance? With all those things? Nutrition, lifestyle mindset, and why is that so important?
Lisa Franz 20:34
Yeah, balance in and off itself, the word I think is so often abused, also, just hit router, like work life balance. And I know we're probably going to talk about that a little bit also. But for me balance when it comes to food is just, once again, not going overboard. Like I'm a big proponent of stoic philosophies. And the one of the stoic principles is Temperance is moderation. And I love that, unfortunately, this is not a concept that in modern society is there love, like even the you know, TV, and whatever is basically telling us, you're gonna gain 20, whatever, over Christmas. And this is your period of time where you can go all out. And at the same time, then they're advocating for the next diet, pill and whatever. So again, from often not necessarily young age onwards, but like, from a societal standpoint, we are encouraged to go overboard on the weekends go overboard, when you're on vacation. But that whole principle of like, hey, maybe let's moderate our portions. And it's, we don't have to have three appetizers, a huge main and everybody a single dessert, like, why can't we just like, share a little bit and then have a main and then maybe today, it doesn't have to be dessert because you had some alcohol. So I think it's really hard to grasp. But I also believe that once people see how good it feels, it to live in that moderate place, that they don't want to go back. So initially, quite often, when people perhaps observe my lifestyle, or other people that have been practicing moderation for some time, they think you're a bit uptight most of the time, like, why don't you just let loose?
Philip Pape 22:30
You're very disciplined, right? Like, like a monk, you know?
Lisa Franz 22:35
Yeah. Or why why? Why do you want to stop after two glasses of wine? There's still three bottles to go under pressure. Right now, like, why do I need to keep going like to is my limit? I know that for myself, why can't I just, you know, stop right here. But then, after a while, if people get to know you better, and they see how that then maybe the next day that allows you to get up early and train? Oh, that's actually pretty cool. As opposed to laying in bed for half of the day. And, and so on. Like, I often hear like, Oh, you're so consistent with everything that you do. Yes, moderation allows you to do that. If you constantly go through ups and downs and extremes. I believe that that is what causes periods of, well, I guess, where you can train, where you're just fatigued, where you burn out, etc. So I guess to answer your question, um, balance and moderation, something that you have to practice again, it really comes down to that.
Philip Pape 23:39
Yeah, you're the way you're the way your mind works. Lisa, I really I really admire I can tell you're, you're well read, like you really dig into philosophy and think about these things. Because you, you just defined balance as not living in extremes all the time, which is interesting, because you could say that one extreme balances out another. And you're saying that, well, in that moment, you're not balanced, and you're constantly living in a state of imbalance in the extremes, which is, again, a subtle but profound concept. And but you also said, practicing moderation. Now, my challenge would always be to statement like that, well, how does someone get there in the first place? Right? And you said, go by how it feels. I just did an episode about why you should track your food and the number one, the number one reason or not, number one reason the number one tactic was how does it make you feel that that was where I started. And that resonated with me because I see clients all the time who they'll say in their check in my when this week was I had I ate such and such at night. I didn't feel great the next day, you know, because they're adapted to a better you know, higher quality food and then like and I just don't eat that anymore. And that kind of reminded me of that of you build it and you learn the discipline of temper, temperance and moderation. It's not like you just sort of turn a switch and habit so
Lisa Franz 24:58
that's actually the point I do want to add One thing you said, go by how it feels. And I think the tricky part is that, um, for the most part, we again speaking as like a society have Miss learned if that's a word to to, to really listen to our body, our mind and how we feel. So my encouragement there is to a slow down like in a social setting is slowing down and adding pauses. That always sounds like so weird too. But But still, it helps so much because you cannot observe how you feel if you don't pause to observe how you feel right? Like, again, your example right there. I said the person the person observed the next day how they felt, if they perhaps would have stopped after whatever Two plates of food that they had, or a glass of wine or whatever, and just thought like, do I really need this next plate or drink? Maybe they would have said no, maybe they would have said yes, I don't know. But at least having that opportunity to change the behavior, we need to give ourselves that. So slowing down would be part number one. And then also like being more present, observant and pausing from time to time will be part number two. Without those two, you cannot shift that pattern of like just following what you have always been doing or following what society tells you to do. You know, you're on Friday night, you're supposed to just go crazy and create what you want. So no, it really is being present, being in the moment slowing down and asking yourself, Do I really need this. And then of course, lastly, it really comes down to practicing to say no more often. And that's a really unpopular and unsexy concept because we might lose friends in the process of that we might, you know, it really demands some big habit changes sometimes, but in the end learning to say no more often. And you can say no, in a really polite way. You can say oh, hey, no, thank you. I don't need a second helping. This was really delicious. I really appreciate it. Maybe I can take something home. But right now, I don't want any more. And, you know, some, initially, some people might try to push more on you or they might be offended or whatever. But it's okay, just realizing this is going to pass. At least I'm going to feel great tomorrow and the day after and whatever. And that person is going to forget about it in five minutes. Like
Philip Pape 27:19
yeah, no, don't, don't be a people pleaser. And some people are more prone to that than others. Even in addition to the situation you mentioned, perhaps the people they live with or around all the time, kind of just habitually doing things that sabotage them, maybe not intentionally, but they sometimes have to have that difficult conversation of here's how you can support me and just understand I'm doing this for my health. But there you laid another truth bomb for us there, Lisa about slowing down and using pauses. And it reminded me I always like to tie things to other topics like you did with the budget. But when it comes to podcasting, talking to people, even debating whatever it is slowing down, and listening is a very important skill. And what you're saying is slow down and listen to your body because it's trying to tell you things. So maybe I'm just silly coming up with these analogies. But these are this is what comes to me when you think about it. Right? So what what about you personally, so we haven't, I know we kind of brushed over the opening statement and then move on into the questions. You know, your your business owner, your coach, your podcast host, you're a great person, from what I can tell, how do you balance your life? How do you balance your nutrition, your training, your relationships, your emotional health, all of the things we've talked about to make it all work?
Lisa Franz 28:31
So yeah, again, in this context, really, I think the word balance is super tricky, because we're up and up the understanding of like, it should mean that all parts of life are equal, and that's just totally unrealistic. So point number one, we need to acknowledge that we go through different stages of life, and that balance is going to shift I, I either I like to think of it as like a bucket and you only have a one bucket and you can distribute the the things in there, however you like, you know, like sometimes it might be a glass pool for work and two glasses full for personal life and half a glass for emotional life, whatever, like you have this, this amount and you can distribute it however, of course, ideally, we should have a little bit distributed at each one of them at all times. But as a 20 year old, of course you're you in single you might have a lot more energy and drive to put that towards your physical health and in your 30s or when you have children whatever it might go more towards family or should potentially go more towards family at different stages, even throughout the year or even throughout the month, the week. Your work might have to take up a lot and your you have to dial your physical training back to the minimum. So I always I like to make sure I have my minimum I covered on all bases at all times. And I won't lie, my lifestyle was probably reasonably unique. And well in a way that I'm, I live alone I travel. I'm a digital nomad. So I don't know a lot of people around me most of the time, like my family is remote. Also, I see them once a year for a couple of months, and then very intensely, but otherwise, it really like my relationships, I guess, are probably rather few in comparison to a lot of other people. And I don't have family. So you know, I can devote all my attention towards my physical health, and my business, which I love. So that is very different to most people, I think, especially a lot of our clients, they often say, I'm struggling fitting in my workouts with all my kids. And of course, I think no matter who you are, where you're at, one of the most important things you can do is get super clear on your priorities and like re evaluate them on a regular basis, because again, they are going to potentially shift places a little bit on a regular basis. And that's okay, or actually, it's the man at sometimes. So if you are clear on your priorities that makes saying yes or no to whatever comes up so incredibly easy. So I just shared like, one of my priorities is my physical health and like pushing my training, I get joy out of it, and so on. So if someone would say to me, like, Hey, Lisa, tonight, Friday night, there is an open mic at 1130. At the start, you want to come along, I'd be like, Nope, I don't have to think about that for a second because I want to be in the gym tomorrow morning at six o'clock. So, you know, for someone else who's like, well, I don't know right now, like my family is my focus, it might also be an easy decision, because you should probably spend if your family is your priority, and you're working all night long, you might want to go to the bar tonight. But since you said your family is your priority, you should probably stay home have like a pizza and movie night with them instead. And then spend the weekend with them quality time as opposed to sleeping in tomorrow morning. And you know, whatever it is. So just being really, really clear on your priorities. I think it makes everything easier. And then you can shift those then you can establish your own life work whatever balance
Philip Pape 32:24
right like shifting calories around, you know for the day.
32:28
That's a Philippe an awfully for a long time and know how passionate he is about healthy eating, and body strength. And that's why choosing to be my coach. I was no stranger to a dieting and body training. But I've always struggled to do it sustainably relief helped me prioritize my goals with evidence based recommendations, or not over stressing my body and not feeling like I'm starving. In six months, I lost 45 pounds without drastically changing the foods I enjoy. But now I have a more balanced diet. I weight train consistently. And most importantly, I do it sustainably if a scientifically sound healthy diet and a Langstrom body is what you're looking for. Philip Pape is your guy.
Philip Pape 33:12
Yeah, that that is so good. So again, we're talking the theme of it's not so much balance as living moderately within your within your capacity and for the time that you're in. But then, but then putting everything you can or at least as much as you can to the things that really matter right now. It's kind of the way I look at it, I like that you're, you're like we have this permission to not neglect things, but to put them at their minimum for a while, while others go up. And by the way, if you focus on something pretty intensely for a while and develop that mastery, it's going to help make everything else easier, right? Like physical health will make, you know, earning your wealth and developing your relationships easier. You know, having healthy relationships will reduce your stress so that you can, you know, maybe have burned more calories so you can eat more and train and so on. So again, this is Lisa, really amazing insight for folks to think of it this way. Getting clear on your priorities are what are the thing comes to mind there is I just told a friend of mine yesterday, I said, Man, does it ever stop. Like when we're going for mastery in anything? Do we ever stop to the day we die and of course we're never really going to stop but you could put something on pause and you could coast and by having focused on one thing for enough to be happy where you are at that level. Go ahead and coast on that for a while, you know, keep maintain it, but post on it. It's a great, that's a great that's a
Lisa Franz 34:33
great point. I think muscle mass or physical like training status is a great example. Like it takes so much more and longer to build up muscle mass but then training it. You actually really don't need that much volume for a couple of months. I think a lot of people saw that over COVID lock downs and they were like, oh, okay, it might have taken a couple of weeks for strength to come back or for you to feel good again in the gym, but general At least speaking, muscle mass is reasonably easy to maintain. And again, like with anything else if you're if you had established a routine, and it really has had become an automated method routine, getting back into that, after a little bit time off is reasonably easy, as opposed to start with something completely new.
Philip Pape 35:19
Yeah, no, that's a great one, too. I think it's like 116 to 1/8 the amount of like intensity or volume to maintain your muscle mass. So you're right. It's, it's like, that's your reward for having gotten there. I think of food in a similar way. Like once you've added muscle mass, and you're moving all the time, now you've got more calories to play with. Well, now it's a lot easier to you know, you don't even really have to dye it technically in the way you used to because it's just easier. Right? Okay, so, ah, let's talk about training a little bit. How about that? Okay, great. Yeah, sometimes I segue smoothly. And sometimes I'm like, let's just change right now. Next book. So I am curious about your perspective, because we talked about that a lot on the show, you know, it's Wits, & Weights? What are some of the let's talk principles? Again, you're you're big into principles systems, not not necessarily the methods so much, what are the big training principles that you live by,
Lisa Franz 36:09
and I can pick up from the nutrition aspect from earlier consistency, like full stop, I, we can preface this completely with just this one word. And, again, even though we just spoke about taking some time off, generally speaking, though, if you can make it into the gym twice a week for the rest of your life and move for like, 45 minutes or so, you're gonna be in a good place. Like, that's already something I mean, anything on top of that is going to be great. And let's put like walking in sort of day to day activity aside. But yeah, those the two, three sessions three will be even better. Mmm, that's great. Like I personally, since I have a lot of time,
Philip Pape 36:50
yeah, sorry. No, no, let's stop there. Because people need to understand, look, what is it take for the rest of your life to do something twice a week for like, an hour or two? And now I want you to ask, How often do you watch Netflix? So there you go. Can you do it? I think you could do it very easily
Lisa Franz 37:04
keep it very, very good. And I mean, we're literally talking about like, 45 minutes to an hour in there. So yes, absolutely. Kind of makes you feel great. So why not? Yeah. So I mean, you said Wits, & Weights. And I automatically kind of like assumed we were talking about strength training, because I'm totally of the same opinion not to say that cardiovascular health isn't important. But I think most of the time, we're most of the clientele that we deal with. And they come more from an endurance type background, or maybe like, group fitness style background. So the challenge was more to get them into structured strength training, pushing the weights up, increasing risk times, and getting away from just chasing the burn chasing the sweat. And again, I come from, I'm saying that or I'm now at this point, because I was somewhere completely different. In the past, I have more of a CrossFit background, I used to believe if I don't lie on the ground, sweating, or if something didn't hurt, then it wasn't a good workout. A long way since then, and have learned most importantly a lot since then. And now I know that a soreness really isn't a good indicator for how good your workout was, or how effective your warhead was. And be in order to improve body composition to increase my lean body mass, which is so helpful for just longevity, metabolism, like you name it, I really don't need to be doing or not just that, like those circuits had training. CrossFit is not the most optimal style, particularly for someone with a stressful lifestyle. Again, if you are a 19 year old, teenager, whatever, em who has nothing to do, but train and recover and sleep and eat. prospered can be a great sport for you. But for most people, particularly if you're easily stressed and you don't sleep too well. And it's likely not the best form for your health or your physique. And again, people that come to us, they are really mostly interested in the aesthetics and of course longevity. They always say like, I want to feel sure sure
Philip Pape 39:27
they say that and it's like okay, let's let's get you the short term results as well. Just so you know, you know that it all ties together.
Lisa Franz 39:36
So yeah, I guess to expand further beyond the three training sessions or so per week. The kind of training split that then follows I think is determined by how much you can train if you can train more than three times per week. I do prefer often a body parts split or upper lower split, or push pull legs or something I like that very few people or hardly anybody that I work with trains six days a week, to be honest. Um, but anywhere, like if you do three, three days per week or two, I certainly advocate for more of a full body split just because we do want to hit those muscle groups like twice a week, like each muscle group. And we're simply more on the safe side with with a full body split in that regard. But yeah, I usually base my programming around, of course, a little bit of a warm up, but around the compound lifts, and then a little bit of accessory work compounds meaning squats, deadlifts, presses, just those big movers where we in clewd, a lot of muscle group groups or big muscles. And then the accessories I do think are incredibly important, often overlooked. And when I say compounds that can also sometimes be for someone see single leg barbell deadlift with various
Philip Pape 40:58
multiple compounds with dumbbells and so on. Yeah.
Lisa Franz 41:03
I do think almost everybody has a stronger side and a weaker side identifying that and then kind of balancing things more out with unilateral stuff, or as you said, with various types of equipment to address one side more than the other can be really helpful. But yeah, I tend to keep workouts under an hour or have around about an hour. Because I don't think it needs to be more than that. And oftentimes the mind starts to drift for people that are already halfway at work or not to
Philip Pape 41:30
mention the depleted carbs by that point. Yeah, yes. Oh, so this is great. Because, man, for the people listening, they hear this stuff over and over because I say it, but I like to have guests on like you that I mean, we are 100% in alignment, these, these are the bedrock principles you talked about. And you just stated them so elegantly. I like in one sentence, you said structured, pushing the weights up, increasing the rest times, not chasing the burn. I'm like, right there, those are the opposite of what a lot of people are doing, right? They're not structured, they're just exercising, like I like talked about the difference between exercise and training training, they're not pushing weights up, it's the same way day after day after day. They have like 32nd rest periods, and they don't realize how amazing it is to have 2358. If you're like pushing a big heavy deadlift or something, it depends how strong you are, and then not chasing the bird, right? If your clients are saying, I'm so sore, and I'm recovering, not recovering all the time, something is off, right? That's what so I love it, all the other stuff is great, I'm not going to repeat it. But you know, folks should should keep listening to this, again, about the value of not just for your physique in the short term, but also your health in the long term. And stress is important. If you're busy, you have a job and kids and family and like Don't be doing CrossFit. Don't be doing maybe a five day 90 minute a day workout session, you know, training program.
Lisa Franz 42:51
I think the tricky part. And again, just sharing from like personal experience, the tricky part for a lot of people is that the training feels great afterwards, right? Like, especially if you if you have had that sweat, and you're like, Oh, I feel so good right now with that release of adrenaline and all the rest of it. And so, for me, it was incredibly hard to make that connection between like, this is a stressor that can be negative for my body just like an argument with my partner or just like something at work. Because to me, it felt so good to like how can something that feels so good in the moment or afterwards be bad for me or contributed? Like I actually thought like, oh, I need this as an outlet. And so communicating that nowadays, it can be tricky to to get that buy in. Because we again, we go by how we feel right? Most of us are in this incident, we go by how we feel anyway. And so we feel great afterwards. So how was the bad for me? So, yeah, the only way to get through there, in my opinion is Well, number one education, just showing, you know, the research the data, etc. And then also saying, can we just give it a try for a little bit. Maybe after two weeks, people realize, okay, I'm not waking up four times a night anymore, because I'm overly stressed can actually get away with only once or twice. And I'm actually not feeling so beat up anymore all the time. I have energy for my work for my kids. And so then once they feel that, then you get the buy in. But yeah, it can be tricky from a coach's perspective. And of course, again, I understand from a client perspective as well.
Philip Pape 44:32
Yeah, I mean, listeners, Lisa knows her stuff, for sure. So listen to her, Listen to me, and then try it and then get the feedback so that it proves to yourself that it works. But you're right, taking that first step. It's like if hopefully, if you sought out a coach and you're working with a coach, you're open to listening to something that's different and uncomfortable from what you've been doing, knowing that it could possibly produce an incredibly different results. So that's the philosophy you want to have. But if you're gonna if you're doing it on your own experiment, experiment, like just try Are these things you know? And see what comes of it? A few more questions, because I'm really loving this conversation, I think the listeners getting massive value from what you're saying and the way you're saying it. So. So then how do you when you are working with clients, you mentioned all these principles of training? How do you help the clients find a program that suits suits their needs? And then you mentioned things like preferences, their capacity, their equipment, all that? And do you do you actually write the programming? Or do you work with other trainers? for that?
Lisa Franz 45:26
No, I I read the programs that we have in our training app. I will say, I think training is a little bit different, or training programs are a little bit different than nutrition. I do think with nutrition, we always have to 100% have an individualized approach. I think when it comes to training programs, the majority of people like 95% of people are probably going to do great with a good generalized program. So of course, making their individual adjustments to it if needed. But I think there's nothing wrong with going online and purchasing someone's great training program, if you if they're a trusted person, you know, and it doesn't you don't have to invest into a personal trainer or having an individualized training program. 100%. I think the the first question again, you should ask yourself is, how many days? Can I contest like overtime? Really, realistically, train? I mean, oftentimes, when starting out, we're super ambitious and think I'm going to increase to five times Well, let's, let's start smaller, right? And, and then once you know the answer,
Philip Pape 46:38
if somebody said, I only can do it one day, would you challenge that? Would you like push them to at least try to do two? Or would you start at one?
Lisa Franz 46:44
No, probably, I would probably start pushing them to two, just from the also getting them the results perspective. Just from of course, one is better than nothing, and so on. But aside from that, with two, they're gonna see twice the results, probably. So yeah, I just want
Philip Pape 47:04
people to know, you know, it's not, we don't want to make excuses. You know, there's certain minimums for some of these things.
Lisa Franz 47:08
So yeah, going by the time that you have available, and then assessing your equipment, we have a lot of people working out from their home gym, they have barbells, in most cases, dumbbells, kettlebells, that kind of stuff. And then a few people, of course, going to the gym. So I think that provides a lot of guidance already as to what kind of program program can I purchase? And then making sure that the program is the duration as well that you want not an hour and a half when you only have 45 minutes. And yeah, then I think I mean, I'm obviously coming from my perspective here. But then a good criteria should be that there's sufficient rest times in the program and kind of looking at the biggest part probably being what is my actual goal also. So meaning, if you're someone who wants to, quote unquote, shape their butt, or glutes, or whatever, and you look at the program, and there's only one lower body day in there, that's not lining up if you if you want, right, so thinking a little bit like what is my actual goal other than just building muscle or getting stronger, whatever? Do I have a particular area that I want to or need to focus on, maybe you've had an injury years ago, and you want to now build up your leg strength, maybe you have lower back issues that you need to take into consideration? And so like thinking about that, having a clear, clarity around your goal is really, really helpful when it comes to that also.
Philip Pape 48:36
All right, cool. Just just taking notes here this this makes some sense. I like how you mentioned that a template could definitely work. I agree. I actually just interviewed Andy Baker, I don't know if you know, he's he's like co author of practical programming, and you don't seem I actually run his programs, which are most of them are templates, or they're close to it. And you kind of learned to make substitutions and things as you get more advanced and a coach can help you with that. I find that the other thing that coach is really good for us is your form and technique when you first start right just because that's a chance for injury, which which is true. I don't want to scare people about that. But also just being efficient and making progress right doing it the right way.
Lisa Franz 49:15
Totally. I do want to add two things here. So of course still, if you can't afford a coach or so, filming yourself is actually incredibly helpful. Like if you have an exercise video that's attached to your template and then even just like once in a while, once a month filming your exercises, it can provide a lot of insight like even for mice. I mean, I've been training for like over a decade now or whatever. And sometimes I feel myself like Oh, I thought I was not running my lower back here when I go into that Romanian deadlift. And then I did like it's actually our body awareness is not that great sometimes. And yeah, the the other thing when it comes to autoregulation or so a framing program, another mistake that people generally make is program hopping too much, or changing things up too quickly. So that would be another red flag if your training program would change every week or every two weeks, even I think even every four weeks is a bit of a push. Like, I think there's technically nothing wrong with following the exact same program for 1216 weeks. If you
Philip Pape 50:22
progress Okay, sure. Absolutely. For sure. Yeah, no, I
Lisa Franz 50:25
do get that people sometimes feel a little bit, quote unquote, bored. But again, it's learning to sit with that a little bit, especially if you if you come from more of a group class, what I will do sometimes is I'll, you know, give the clients a bit of a finger or a hand and be like, Okay, we'll change it every six weeks, you know, so that, at least you have something to look forward to, if they're if they're getting too itchy. But yeah, to your point of like, novices not making too many changes to a program without checking with a coach or so. But if you're more experienced, and you notice all every time I do this, and that I can't actually connect to my lats as well as if I do that unilaterally or so that's, that's another issue or changing the equipment. That's no issue, you know, sticking with the general movement patterns, I think that's a good idea. But other than that, as a more advanced or intermediate lifter, totally find them exchange.
Philip Pape 51:20
Yeah, and to your comment about avoiding program hopping and not being bored, because I'll tell you, some of my clients know, like, the very, very basic starter programs I work with them with, are pretty darn boring, right? Like they're very, very, very basic, because they're very effective for getting super strong. So what we do is we focus on other things like, and before, after about three weeks, or like, another PR, another PR, and that becomes the metric. And I'm cool with that, you know, like if that's their PR. The other thing is, so I'm more I guess, intermediate, if you will, and I just switched to another program that I had run two years ago, and everything is sore the first week, you know, because you haven't been doing those movements. Even if you're strong, it's just and so from a microcosm, if you program hop, you're going to be getting sore all the time, you're not going to be pushing certain lifts. It's one thing to change accessories on a semi weekly basis. But it's another thing to just change everything all the time. Right. It's fun stuff. I love talking about this. Okay, Lisa? So tracking Well, no, I don't let's not talk tracking, I'm actually more curious about like older folks who are like over 440 is the magic number we always use for whatever reason. What adjustments would you make, you know, and I want to look at it from a balanced approach, I guess I have, on one hand, a lot of things are the same, right? Whether No matter your almost no matter your age, no matter whether you're male or female, and then there are things that are different, right, like hormones change your lifestyle, your stress changes, your recovery capacity changes. So what kind of what's your big picture advice? Maybe in terms of principles?
Lisa Franz 52:49
I'm generally just because someone would fill in an intake form and take 41 rather than 28, I probably would not change anything in terms of the training program, right? If they said to me, I have already had this many injuries, and I'm constantly nurturing my lower back or hip or something like that, I would approach it differently. I mean, we have always again, still have to kind of consider the individual. more from a nutritional perspective, probably, I would absolutely make sure that they're maybe not on the higher end of protein, but certainly not skimping on the lower end. I think when we're like in the early 20s, etc, we can more easily build muscle or build lean body mass and on maybe more like 0.7 grams of protein per pound of body mass. But as we get a little bit older, I do like to see it around that one gram. So that would be one part. What I do, unfortunately, caution and especially women as they enter perimenopause, and go through menopause, and so on, it's just alcohol, unfortunately, and the body just tends to be less forgiving. It's it's just a fact. So if someone wants to lose weight, and consuming more alcohol throughout that time, it's more like driving with a handbrake on, it's not impossible, it still comes down to calories, etc. But because you have those hormonal fluctuations, so that would actually be more things to pay attention to, in terms of training, still totally encouraging people to lift, heavy, progressively overload. And sticking with the same principles, really, I would, I wouldn't change anything. Maybe you know, someone really gets up there in age 70s or higher, really utilizing a lot of balance work, maybe incorporating a little bit more coordination things more, even more unilateral stuff and so on.
Philip Pape 54:59
They've got a lot A lot to make up for for the many years. Yeah, for sure.
Lisa Franz 55:03
Precisely. But otherwise, I think, as you said, principles remain the same.
Philip Pape 55:08
Yeah, no, that's great. And that's what it's all about. Once you have the principles, you can build anything from that you can there's countless permutations. All right. So let me see what else. How about you? What are you doing in the future here, Lisa? Like, what are your future plans or projects? What do you have going on in your business? Just come. So
Lisa Franz 55:25
I actually have three coaches that also work for nutrition coaching and life, which I'm super excited about. And they're three amazing ladies and x. Actually, next month, we have our very first team meetup planned in Canada. So I'm excited to meet them in person because I have known most of them for years and never met them. It's funny how, like, I love it. Internet connections, you feel like you know, people so well, and then you get to meet in person?
Philip Pape 55:56
You know, it's gonna be, you know, it's gonna surprise you as their height. That always surprises me everything, like proportions, you can't tell?
Lisa Franz 56:04
That's a really good point.
Philip Pape 56:06
Just let me know, send me a message. Would you tell me if it wasn't?
Lisa Franz 56:10
Yeah, aside from that, in terms of business, and also, personally, really, to be honest, just cracking on continuing on with what we're doing with our mission of helping people enjoy their lives more, and I'm just hoping to get to reach more more and more people throughout time. And that's it. Yeah, I truly love what I do what we do. And I mean, even in my free time, and I'm sure you can relate to this. I love reading research listening to podcasts. I would 100% continue doing what I'm doing, even if it was not for to get paid.
Philip Pape 56:45
Yeah, that's exactly. That's what it's about. Like, it's a wonderful way to live, and you're providing value and helping people and then it happens to bring bring some income, because you know, it's worth something that people but what matters most is the mission. So Wow, congratulations on that. I mean, I'm not surprised, you know, the way you explain things and your temperament. And, you know, the education and all of this is is what people need, you know, to succeed what people need to succeed. So, I do like to ask this second, the last question of all guests, what one question Did you wish I'd asked? And what is your answer? That's,
Lisa Franz 57:19
I actually had, think about that for a little while. Um, I guess, yeah, you will have actually already asked that a little bit. But nonetheless, I do want to highlighted maybe what my own personal struggles are. And I don't think I brought that across as well, because I was kind of talking like, I came from my high horse there.
Philip Pape 57:39
But no, not at all. I jumped you right into the topics, you know, it's okay. Tell me about your personal struggles out, that would be good context.
Lisa Franz 57:47
I do struggle with being present in the moment. I, I love planning. And I, I love the feeling of control. So planning gives me a sense of control. And because of that, I also get a lot of joy and excitement out of planning future travels, planning, what the rest of the year looks like planning where I want my business to go. And then sometimes it's like, almost like I go through my to do in my checklist. And I feel really satisfied at the end of the day, because I did it. But then I was like, how many times throughout the day? Did I actually just like really 100% Be present with what I was doing at that time. And so, yeah, even I mean, I was speaking to someone about that yesterday, like now, when we're at the grocery store, you know, we feel like we can answer a few more texts or emails or whatever. And I it does take me conscious effort. In those moments to restrain myself from doing that or another, you know, numerous situations throughout the day. I'm just like, just just stand here just like, just be don't just plan don't try to control everything. Just just be and that yeah, that is I think, day to day struggle for sure.
Philip Pape 59:03
Well, you're my doppelganger, Lisa, because that's you speak everything to me. And so how do you do it? Because I want to know the answer, like, what have you been working on? Or is there a secret? Or is there one thing that's, you know, the special sauce to doing?
Lisa Franz 59:15
Well, I wish there was I wish there was I mean, I do think that I meditate every evening to like Roundup my day and I go for daily walks and on both of those. They helped me a be present more in the moment and be moving more and more away from like, having that feeling of every time when I go for a walk, listening to a podcast. No, maybe today is the day where you can just go out without anything. Just leave your phone here because then you're tempted to discover it every time. And same with meditation doesn't always have to be like a guided meditation, whatever, just just be. And those things can offer themselves our practice as well but they carry over into like every minute of the day. So yeah,
Philip Pape 59:59
this is So good. I always love specifics, right? Because that's everything we do when it comes to coaching is like, somebody wants to know how you do this, right? People who have been struggling, just don't know what to do. Same thing with you and me when it comes to being present. And always being typing and wanting to plan everything that you just said, to leave your phone behind, or like right there that resume with me, like, I need to do that. Because you're right, you just listened to the podcast, you're checking, whatever, you know, messages, or how's the podcast doing or
Lisa Franz 1:00:30
even just like that education piece for me, like it's a feeling of being productive. And of course, that feels good to me, like I'm doing something. And there's nothing wrong with that. On the contrary, other people wouldn't be listening to us right now. But it's also again, just learning to sit with that stillness, that uncomfortable and it is uncomfortable, like sometimes even just leaving that from behind, like, sense of anxiety, right? And like, no, whenever I do, do, do leave my phone behind the first, probably 10 minutes, I'm bored out of my mind, I'm like, Oh, I would have taken my phone. After while actually, the creativity starts going, something like my mind just starts drifting, I start noticing a bird there. It comes over time, but we need to like allow that consciously.
Philip Pape 1:01:17
I totally agree with that. Because when I've done that, and gone on walks, it's like, sometimes I end up starting, I speak out loud, you know, nobody's I just started talking and talking through ideas, or I might practice like, and maybe that even is trying to do something because again, your body wants to do something. But still, this goes back to your conversation about balance and the things that are maybe down at the minimum, and now you're trying to push them up. And so that's where we need to challenge ourselves. All right. So with that, where can listeners learn more about you and your work? Lisa?
Lisa Franz 1:01:46
I'm most active on Instagram. It's at nutrition, coaching and life. And that's also the name of the website, nutrition coaching and life.com. And as you said, the podcast is nutrition and life. And yeah, but the most, I'm probably most active on Instagram.
Philip Pape 1:02:05
All right, definitely. Because you're listening to a podcast right now. Go into your app and find nutrition and life and just follow it super easy one tap, do it, and you will not regret it. Thank you so much, Lisa. I'm gonna add all that to the show notes. Of course, this was a lot of fun. This was very enlightening. I learned a lot I know the listener did too. And I want to thank you for coming on the show.
Lisa Franz 1:02:25
It's been a true pleasure. Thank you.
Philip Pape 1:02:29
If you've been inspired by today's interview, and are ready to take action and build momentum on your health and fitness journey, just schedule a free 30 minute nutrition momentum call with me using the link in my show notes. I promise not to sell or pitch you on anything, but I will help you gain some perspective and guidance so we can get you on the right track toward looking and feeling your best
Ep 74: Bigger Gains, Tracking Your Food (or Not), and Fitness Principles with Carl Berryman
Today, I welcome back Carl Berryman, a friend, a peer, a mentor, a brother, and the host of Inspired by Impact - A Podcast for Men, for a fascinating conversation on crushing body composition and fitness goals. We explore vulnerability, taking action, and introspection in personal growth. Carl shares his experience with progress tracking, muscle building, and the impact of lean muscle mass. We discuss overcoming plateaus, support systems, and the mind-muscle connection. Touching on setting weight goals, self-acceptance, and daily gratitude, Carl introduces his "cookie jar" ritual for reflecting on accomplishments.
Today, I welcome back Carl Berryman, a friend, a peer, a mentor, a brother, and the host of Inspired by Impact - A Podcast for Men, for a fascinating conversation on crushing body composition and fitness goals. We explore vulnerability, taking action, and introspection in personal growth. Carl shares his experience with progress tracking, muscle building, and the impact of lean muscle mass. We discuss overcoming plateaus, support systems, and the mind-muscle connection. Touching on setting weight goals, self-acceptance, and daily gratitude, Carl introduces his "cookie jar" ritual for reflecting on accomplishments.
As one of the few men who genuinely inspire me to be better, I had the privilege of interviewing Carl on Wits & Weights Episode 47, and he interviewed me on Episode 37 of the Inspired by Impact podcast.
Tune in for an insightful episode that inspires you to tackle your fitness goals with determination and focus.
__________
Book a FREE 30-minute call with Philip here.
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Today you’ll learn all about:
[5:05] Vulnerability vs. taking action
[7:43] Principles and methods in managing energy balance, and tracking
[15:57] Sustainability, mindset, and goals
[19:40] Carl's story
[23:17] Longevity and health that come from lean mass
[25:01] Lifting heavy, progressive overload, and the right mindset
[27:29] Pushing through weight and lifting plateaus, and identity-based habit
[33:22] How his support system contributes to his process
[38:51] Measuring everything in the day-to-day
[43:21] How Carl is dealing with his weight stall
[45:03] The problem with tracking and a different approach to tracking
[52:22] What surprised Carl during the process
[55:16] Listening to music while working out
[57:32] How to know when you're done and when to switch gears
[1:01:22] The question Carl wanted Philip to ask him
[1:06:04] Outro
Episode resources:
Wits & Weights podcast Ep 47: Upgrade Your Fitness, Health Relationships, and Communication with Carl Berryman
Inspired by Impact podcast EP037 PREP Health & Fitness - Multiple Orgasms, Shedding Fat, One-Step Stress Relief, and Bringing Your Business to Life
FREE 30-minute results breakthrough session with Philip ⬇️
https://witsandweights.com/free-call
Learn about 1-on-1 coaching ⬇️
https://witsandweights.com/coaching
Ask Philip anything ⬇️
IG: @witsandweights
Email: philip@witsandweights.com
Podcast: Q&A voicemail
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Transcript
Carl Berryman 00:00
I'm gonna be very careful to say that something has to be done all the time because I don't know everything about everything. What I'm saying for me is, if I don't track whatever it is, I'm not going to get the results that I want. That's what my experience has taught me if I am not tracking, I am working with my eyes closed. I don't know where I'm going.
Philip Pape 00:18
Welcome to the Wits & Weights podcast. I'm your host, Philip pape, and this twice a week podcast is dedicated to helping you achieve physical self mastery by getting stronger. Optimizing your nutrition and upgrading your body composition will uncover science backed strategies for movement, metabolism, muscle and mindset with a skeptical eye on the fitness industry. So you can look and feel your absolute best. Let's dive right in Wits & Weights community Welcome to another episode of the Wits & Weights podcast. Today's a very special day because I have on the show someone I would consider a friend, a peer mentor a brother and one of the few men in my life who pushed me to be a better man, the one and only Carl Berryman of the inspired by impact podcast. I invited him on or he invited himself or we mutually agreed to have
Philip Pape 01:09
to talk about the health and fitness side of his personal journey to build muscle to get strong to fill out his sleeves. Not only to become a better man, but a bigger man in the literal sense. And we're gonna dig into some of the methods but also more importantly, the principles of what it takes to crush your body composition and fitness goals. And many other topics to be revealed soon. Up. So Carl and I met so we met when we did a podcast swap. This was probably gonna say six months ago or so. And you can find his first interview on episode 47 of Wits & Weights, or my interview on his show inspired by impact a podcast for men, Episode 37. That came out around January. So stop right now follow inspired by impact in your podcast app, and then keep listening. Back then I had no idea we would develop such a close relationship like we have. And we continue to bounce ideas off each other, we spiral what we're doing our impact our work. And I didn't know that would happen. But we really pushed each other. So check out 47 for my original intro of Carl, he doesn't really need an introduction for today. So today, I thought it would be fun to have a more organic conversation. Because Carl is the type of man who is an expert at peeling back the onion, the mental onion, the layers, he gets to the core. But beyond that, he goes into a completely different dimension of reality. And that's where he excels. And I hope we get to today. So Carl, my brother, this is gonna be a fun one for us in the listeners as we were talking before pushing go. So thanks for making another appearance on the show, man.
Carl Berryman 02:45
Hey, man, like I said, before we even hit record I was. I've been looking forward to this all week. And like, it's funny because I take for granted the fact that I've got so many amazing people that I've met through the podcast. And it's funny because I mentioned in one of my podcast episodes recently that if you want to really build amazing relationships with people start a podcast, because you get such amazing depth conversations. But like you I had no idea it was gonna go like this. Like I'm not I'm not shy to reveal some vulnerable stuff with men in my life. And I'm very fortunate where I have, I'm going to say like six or seven men where we can go really deep on stuff that people don't normally talk about, I had no idea you were going to be at the top of that list like you and I communicate with you more than just about any other man now going back and forth. Like just running these ideas off each other and constantly giving each other spots and helping each other get stronger. And man like my, my life in so many different ways has has been leveled up as a result of our relationships. And I'm honored to be here, man,
Philip Pape 03:50
it's mutual. And I think we get that energy from each other. And I wouldn't have called myself the type of guy who is super open about my emotions. It wasn't that I was reserved about it, but just you pushing me to do that I am a man of action. So when I have this guy, like you come in who says, you know, we need to be vulnerable, we need to talk about this stuff. This stuff's important. And I hadn't really heard that message all of a sudden, it's okay, let me take action. That's important. And I understand that it is let me go after it. And then your comment about podcasting for relationships. Oh, I mean, I can't stress that enough car. Like even if you're not in a business, if you don't have a business, just start it for a hobby. Yeah, all of a sudden, it's like it's like dating or meeting friends. It's very hard to do like in the real world, but with podcasts, you're kind of forced into that in a way Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And you all of a sudden build this huge network. And they're like minded people like minded in terms of not necessarily agree on everything, but your, your passion for life and your passion for asking questions and having conversations. So you you've been like me, but you've also introduced me to people like Darlene Marshall, who I just recorded this week, who's making me think rethink just my Philosophy, you know my values. So yeah. Anyway, Carl, right now just to ground listeners you want to interrupt? Yeah, I do
Carl Berryman 05:08
you better get used to the swamp. Yeah, it's fine. I just I want to go back to something that you mentioned there, because you talked about how I kind of opened your eyes with regards to the vulnerability and the sharing and stuff like that. One thing I'm really starting to entertain more from, from an idea. And it's just, I do that too much. Like, I do it too much to the point where there needs to be more action. So I look at you a guy who's all about actions like, hey, I need to take more action, you're looking at me seeing a guy who's really vulnerable, saying I need to do this. While I'm not gonna say either of us is right or wrong, we need to try on what fits for us and make sure that we know where that destination is that we're going and seeing if we're actually getting there because I take a look at like, Yeah, I do a ton of journaling, I do a ton of meditation, everything like that. But at the end of the day, is it taking me closer to where I want to go? If the answer is no, then maybe I need a little bit more action. If the answer's no, when I'm doing a ton of action, maybe there is a little bit more introspection I need to do. So there's definitely no right or wrong. And I love that we are for lack of a better expression, kind of a yang yin and a yang, where like I'm feeding off of that energy that you put out from an action oriented standpoint, and then you can kind of feed off the peeling back the layers of the onion to get to the core things for me, so neither is better or worse than the other, we need to figure out what works for us. And then if action is that thing that works for you. And it needs to be like an 8020 split. Do that if introspection works for you. And it needs to be at in terms of introspection, so you can make sure you have a hyper laser focused 20% That gets you to where you want to go, then that works for you. But it's it's it's no different than what we're doing with our meal plans, what we're doing with our workouts, like really trying on what might fit for you give me time to see if it actually does and then running with it.
Philip Pape 06:53
Yeah, this, this reminds because we're gonna get into principles and methods called what works for you is, is not just lip service. It's not just a buzzword, right, because I just this morning, there was a q&a on one of the podcasts I listened to. And the question was, if I don't like tracking, why should I track? Because I know we're gonna get into that a little bit. And and he said, Well, you don't have to, he said, for some people, it reduces decision fatigue. And there's other reasons for it. And I was but beyond that, then he talked about how the things that worked for him as a host in the past solve problems. Give him the experience and lens and maybe bias to apply to other people what might work for them. And that might not work for that individual. Right. So this is the difference between principles and principles and methods. I think we wanted to get into maybe we could just dive into it right now.
Carl Berryman 07:40
Yeah. Right. Absolutely. Because that's that quote. I can't remember who said it. But the quote with regards to the man who focuses on principles. Oh my gosh, yeah.
Philip Pape 07:52
Oh my gosh, wait a minute. Wait a minute. We're on the same wavelength. So Carl doesn't know my notes here. Carlos know my notes, but I have it. Is it the one by is it? Yes. It's Miss attributed to Ralph Waldo Emerson. Okay. It was actually said by Harrington Emerson. He was a yes theorist. Yeah, he was like a pioneer of scientific management, which for people listening, actually, that's kind of ties into my career as an engineer. Scientific Management is just how do we do things in a data driven way? You can take that to extremes when it comes to people when you talk capitalism, you know, labor versus capital. Anyway. He said, quote, as to methods, there may be a million and then some principles are few. The man who grasps principles can successfully select his own methods. The man who tries methods, ignoring principles is sure to
Carl Berryman 08:36
have trouble. Yeah, that one got us. I used to have that on my fridge. And it is. Yes, principles. Go ahead, kick this one off. No, no, I
Philip Pape 08:45
mean, so on this show, we talk a lot about nuts and bolts things. And actually, you're you've encouraged me to also keep exploring the behavior change and mindset part of this, which is extremely important. But just take energy balance, for example, right? The relationships between the calories you consume, and the calories you expend, and to gain weight, which is something you're trying to do right now to build muscle right. Trying to do in a surplus. You try to do it right, you're doing it right. Oh, man, we can get into the definition of try. Yoda. You know, taking action is trying, isn't it? Yeah, yeah. Okay. So, so you have to eat more than you burn. And it sounds simple, right? But then we get into how do you do that? And how does your body respond? And what are the methods for that? So one method is to count calories, right? That's a method counting calories or tracking food or whatever. Others would be using a meal plan, using portion sizes, measuring your food, but not tracking it, estimating based on labels, estimating what you see, or just intuitively eating based on experience on hunger signals. Right, right. So my approach with clients, which you know, when Carl and I were first talk thing about coaching and things like that. He's like, I don't want to do this, and we're gonna get into it like my approach is use tracking because to me, it was a quick way to get awareness and precision for a lot of people who I deal with who've never had good understanding of their hunger signals or what they're consuming. So tell us about your view on that specifically,
Carl Berryman 10:20
and then we can branch off from there. My view on that specifically is that if it works for you, and it's taking you to where you want to go, and it's something you can sustain, like, stick with it, like why not? The other view that I would have on it to oppose myself because I'll I'll I'll play both sides of the fence here is that if you're not getting to where you want to go based on what you're doing, then you'd be insane not to try something else, regardless of how much you hate it like because just the fact that you hate it. If you then start getting results, as like, if you start get making the progress you want, as a result of doing the thing that used to hate, guess what, you're not gonna hate it anymore. Yes, you're gonna like it, you're gonna like it because all of a sudden, it starts to work. Now, for me, this is how I would phrase it, I haven't taken the time to develop a better relationship with tracking, like calorie tracking, because the stories that I play in my head with regards to doing that stuff, like I remember, like, there was a there was a few days there, I only did it for like three days, there's but like one of those days specifically, I remember I'd go in there. And since I'm eating the same thing, it was super easy to track, right. But then like I think about when I make my shakes, I think about when I make my pro U casserole like I'm trying to like to try to just do the math on that, like cooking is something that I use as a relaxation outlet. Like I it's downtime for me where I can just shut off not be thinking about my podcast not be thinking about spirituality and all this stuff. So for me to then take something that feels like work and put it into a space that I go specifically to not work. That's where the relationship kind of came to a head. So I'm like, Okay, well, if I'm not tracking via an app, or something like this, I at least need to be doing something. And it's, it's really interesting for me what I because like, I shot up weight pretty quickly, which was really, really surprising for me. And like I've had lots of people mentioned that they they noticed the difference is for my ego is that's nice to put my tires. But I noticed for me that I like you said I always want to unpeel the onion and get to the core. So it's like, okay, my I've hit a plateau. What does that mean? Does it mean I'm not eating enough calories? Probably. Okay, so then why am I not eating enough calories? Let's peel another layer. Okay, well, I'm not eating enough calories, because when I go to the fridge, I don't want to take time to prep stuff. Okay, so if I don't want to take time to prep stuff, what do I need to do? I need to have stuff prepped in events. So for right now, what I actually track is food prep, I don't track my calories, like I know the portion size I'm going for. But if I get food prep done three times a week or more, I don't have to worry about calorie intake, because the food is there. And not only there, but it needs to be delicious. So last night, I'm like, Man, I don't feel like eating. I'm not hungry. But I have to I'm going on the show tomorrow, I've got to be nice and bulk for fill up here. So I'm like, Okay, what's going to be quick? What's going to be easy? Tacos? Taco, so I'm like, okay, that's gonna be quick done, and I get my calories. And so really taking the time to figure out why I haven't been doing what I know I need to do has helped me figure out how to do things as simply as possible. So the principles, how do you make mistakes hard to make? That was the question I had to answer. How do you make mistakes hard to make?
Philip Pape 13:37
Yeah. So what you're telling me then is, through this process, you're gathering data of some kind, it's not seen data that I would have a new client do because there's a system I have. And that's that's kind of a reliable way to just dive into it right from the bat, because right tool for it. But you have, you also have a tool, and it's take the output, which in your cases, you didn't gain weight, which we can get into that, like that, and how you calculate that accurately, and so on. You took that output said, it's not where I need to be, I need to push it higher. You already have this reliable, or consistent way of eating. And now you know, there's a delta two that you need to make. Yeah, whether it's via prep, or the content or the quantity or what have you. And then you make it so it really does sound to me like you're you're tracking a different with a different tool effectively. Yeah, tracking something you're tracking?
Carl Berryman 14:27
is still it has it has to be done. It has been done. That's something that I would Yeah, that's right. It's the principle I'm never going to say actually. I'm going to be very careful to say that something has to be done all the time, because I don't know everything about everything. What I'm saying for me is, if I don't track whatever it is, I'm not going to get the results I want. That's what my experience has taught me if I am not tracking, I am working with my eyes closed. And I if I'm working with my eyes closed, I don't know where I'm going. And I'm not going to get there.
Philip Pape 14:58
Yeah, and you said to get the results you want So your result right now isn't wellness, it's gaining muscle. Like, let's be honest, I mean, you might have other microbes and problems you're trying to solve. Yes. Which
Carl Berryman 15:08
is, which is why I switched back to eating, like I got off of my plant based diet. Because I know right now the goal is to put on lean muscle, right. And in order to do that, like I was just getting so tired of beans and lentils and tofu, which I still eat, for sure, I still eat. But as soon as I started adding chicken and dairy and ground beef and ground turkey back in there, that's when I started to get excited about eating again. I'm like, Man, I missed this stuff. Alright, so
Philip Pape 15:39
you're just saying just from a psychological standpoint of and enjoyment standpoint, yes, you
Carl Berryman 15:43
are getting huge back to that. Yeah, huge factor that people completely downplays? How much are you going to enjoy the thing that you need to do to get you where you want to go? Because if you don't enjoy it, as soon as you can stop, you're gonna stop.
Philip Pape 15:55
Great. Yeah. And we talked about sustainability, which again, is another buzzword that gets thrown around, sometimes lightly. And what you're telling me is that even during the muscle building phase, which we know can last a long time, it can last six, nine or more months. Yeah, it's not a short term process. So you have to make it enjoyable, but also not make so many trade offs that you don't get your results. That's that's the thing. Yes. You know, you're not looking at maintenance, you're trying to push your weight. And what's happening is, I sent you those graphs by text yesterday of like, my personal last time I did a building phase. Right? My expenditure went up by about 600 calories over six months, which is not, which is actually pretty typical. Yeah, my size, and then, which is about 25 calories a week that I would have to increase my, my daily intake to keep up with that. Which 25 calories isn't a lot, but you know, it adds up over time. Right? Yeah,
Carl Berryman 16:44
it's like anything like when you're if you're going to do bench press, when you start from one end, and then you start making your gains and all of a sudden, you get to that point where it's really heavy. Now, you've got to start going up by like, five pounds instead of 20 pounds, or even two and a half pounds for some less instead of Yeah, so it gets tough. I trust me I know right now force feeding myself is I'm looking for ways not looking for ways around it. I'm getting very, very strategic about how to how and when to force feed myself. So.
Philip Pape 17:15
So do you is force feeding? Do you see it as force feeding or be?
Carl Berryman 17:22
Okay? Okay, so language language is really important. So I'm really glad you brought that up. I actually, I don't see it as force feeding, I see it as eating when I'm not hungry in order to in order to get to where I want to go. Yeah, so this is a part of the process. It's no different than meat. So today at bench, I was super pumped about it, I want to make sure this happened today. So for the longest time, I was stuck on 185. Right for bench I do it, I do it five. And when I was doing it by myself, I couldn't I didn't even try a sixth time. Even though I made sure I did them in the squat racks. I was just scared. Okay, a couple weeks ago, I get a buddy to come help me with 190, we get 190 times up five, next week could do 195. And we get that up five, the fifth one was really hard. So today, I tried something different where sets one, two, and three, I didn't go all out, or set sets one and two, because I do three sets, sets one and two, I didn't so got up to 205. And like four was I'm not gonna say easy. It was very manageable. 195, the second set that I did for four, super manageable, like super manageable because I changed my mindset around what heavy was. So with regards to force feeding, it's not gonna be force feeding. It's like, No, this is me just feeding my muscles and being the person in the man that I say I want to be. That's what this is. So I'm gonna choose to entertain that story as opposed to it being a painful story.
Philip Pape 18:38
Yeah, and I think that's important for people listening, because there are different types of coaches out there, right. There's some that focus on wellness and health. There's some that focus on longevity, others that focus on performance, and some of that focus on aesthetics, right. And these are all different goals. And what you're going after here is, ultimately it's going to be an aesthetics goal once you lean out, but you're really aiming for performance right now. Like you just said, trying to get push your lifts and eat to fuel and perform. It's okay to do that. Like the fact that you don't feel hungry is your body telling you you this is a slightly unnatural state, you know, and physiological Yeah, pushing yourself away from homeostasis, same thing on the other end. We have hunger. I get questions all the time, like how do I avoid hunger during fat loss? The answer is you can't you don't you can't avoid it. And you don't want to be playing tricks. But you can make it manageable. You can learn about hunger, you can learn what hunger means and separate physical from physiological hunger and so on. So yeah, yeah, man. So let's see. Tell us so tell the listener what you're actually trying to do and where you came from before? Because I understand that you maybe in the past struggled with gaining weight or the thought of gaining weight or you did you kind of quit too early in the process. Tell us about that.
Carl Berryman 19:53
I struggled with the commitment to put on weight. That's just all there is to it. I gave up way too soon. So ever since I'm 43 Now ever since I was man. Oh no 10 I've wanted to be one of those bigger guys because like, my older brother would have the muscle and fitness magazines, he'd have the benches at home with like, the brown plates with the sand and, and whatever. Yeah, I always wanted to be like, I want to be big and jacked. And then I guess around probably I'm gonna say 35. So not all that long ago, relatively speaking, I kind of gave up on that. And I'm like, You know what, work with it, you got current, like you're leaning guy, you're super agile, you're fast. Like, let's just let's dive into that and do the best you can with that. So back in 2021, early 21, I made a really radical transformation, I didn't lose very much overall weight at all. And my body fat percentage only went down by 3%, from 15 to 12. And I went from like 151 to 148. And I looked jacked like I looked, I looked great. And then fast forward a couple years, and my regular weight is around like 139 to 141. And I remember Jenny Lee had talked about pictures that I when we first started dating, like 10 years ago that I would send to her and I looked bulkier, like I looked, I looked good. But I was there was a lot more masks on me. I'm like, Man, I want to get back to that. But every single time I would go on a bulk. And I couldn't see my six pack. I was like, forget it. Yeah, forget it. Like I'm I'm not doing this because I want to see my six pack. completely forgetting one of the main principles I preach all the time, which is half of getting what you want is knowing what you have to give up to get it. And for me, I'm like right now, sure if I flex hard enough, in my six pack, but I'm not. I'm just not about that right now. Because the reason why I want to put the reason why I wanted to put on muscle mass before it was for aesthetics. The reason why I want to do it now is because I'm realizing and I've learned this from you, Phillip, just how proportionate longevity and performance in later years is with the amount of muscle you have body and the quality of that muscle. So it's like, Hey, this is only going to keep getting harder for me to put on muscle. So if there's any time regardless what age you are, the time is now so I need to put this muscle on. Now I need to get up and get his heavy from a muscle standpoint as I possibly can right now and just stay 100% dedicated to that. Because yeah, I'm a lean guy. I imagine, it's probably not going to be that difficult for me to shed some stuff if I want to. But more importantly, like I want to be that personal trainer in my 70s who is school in the punks, like in every category like like walking up to the bar and doing three plates for for for a warm up, I want to be the guy who's doing box jumps that still up to my shoulders, like I want to be that guy. And that's never going to happen. If I'm not willing to make this very short term sacrifice, like think 12 months may sound to a lot of sound long to a lot of people. But if I've been trying to do this, really since I was 16, if I'm being honest, we're going almost three years there. So So 12 months compared to 30 years. That's pretty
Philip Pape 23:09
short. Yeah. And yeah, in there are several principles in there that the listener should understand that we do cover it on the podcast a lot, but in case they haven't heard about it, and one one is the longevity and health that comes from having lean mass, it really is the crux of so much of if you think of the opposite of what happens, what happens with most people, you get older, you get more frail, you lose significant body mass, I mean, Carl has been been working out for years. So you've kind of maintained or at least done a little bit of body composition over the years. You know, I could tell from your physique, right? Whereas most people just haven't even done that, right? They've been living a sedentary life, myself included until when I was almost 40. And at 40 at 50 at 60. I've seen people time and again, start to strength train, and everything just starts to get better. All right, I hear this all the time from clients, where we start with like a weight in their mind, they need to lose weight, right? They need to lose weight. And I'm like, Okay, well hold on. We're not going to do that just yet. Right? We got to figure some things out first and, and have some fun with these new tools and processes and habits. Let's have fun with them. We always gamify things try to have things that we track and whatnot. And I tell you almost to person, what's my PR becomes like the driving question.
Carl Berryman 24:30
Absolutely. Good feeling
Philip Pape 24:32
it is and then then what'll happen is maybe after two three months, we've done all this and gotten super strong and we do a fat loss phase just to we gotta learn that right. And they're like, Wow, this is way easier than I thought wow, why is my body responding this way? Wow. Wow. And it's like you're lifting heavy like it really comes down to that. Stuff is is important like sleep and stress and stuff but the big change you never did before was telling your body muscles important.
Carl Berryman 24:59
Yeah. No. And you think that you think that's so? Not solely but you think one of the main driving factors of that is lifting heavy? Yeah. Okay, lifting heavy. It is a few reasons physiologically Well, it's lifting heavy and progressing, you know, progressive overload.
Philip Pape 25:19
So I want to be clear because you you can lift in a higher rep range and still have progressive overload and still develop muscle mass for sure. But, and you've probably learned this yourself, like with deadlifts and things like that building, that base of strength makes working in all the rep ranges easier. Ways. Yeah. And the heavy lift and we're talking, you're at 80 85% of your max, not maxing out necessarily. We recruits bigger muscle fibers that normally would stay somewhat dormant, they just would not get recruited. So that's super important. Especially if Hey, women, you want to bigger glutes, guys, you want you know, bigger back, like all that stuff, you got to dig deep, and lift super heavy to get those now once you've built that base, then you can start having fun, right? You can do the body building the power building the the endurance stuff, throw all that in there, because you've built the base that you can very easily maintain compared to what it took to build it.
Carl Berryman 26:10
Yeah. One thing I want to add to that, too, is I was thinking about this today, like, it's amazing, the mindset shift from when I did 185 on the bench today to say even three weeks ago, like 185 would have made me nervous three weeks ago. But now since I did 195, the previous week, I'm like, there's no reason I can't do 185. And today, like 185 for four, if I were to go all out there and I had a spot, there might have been eight reps there. Like it was it was not hard. And so where I'm going with that is now I've conditioned my mind to redefine what is hard for me. So after I'm done this strength phase in this building phase, however long this is going to be imagine what's going to happen when I go down. And I'm doing higher reps, but I'm doing them with a heavier weight now because it's like no, I've, I've done I've done to 25 for bench now. And I'm using that for sets of four. Now all of a sudden when I'm going to do my eight to 12. I'm using my 185 Yes. Because just the mental idea that now this is this is like compared to what I normally do.
Philip Pape 27:15
Yeah. Yeah. And, and it translates into all the accessory movements. Like if you go after all these deadlifts like months of progress, then do some rows. Just watch how much heavier Yeah, yeah, yeah. So what now let's turn that around and understand that at some point, you may. So you have a weight plateau right now that you're pushing through? Yep, you may at some point have a lifting plateau. Just because the more advanced you get, the stronger you get, the farther in between the PRS come. And you're a little bit more sensitive to recovery to stress and sleep. So if you have just one day where you get six hours of sleep, or one day where you do you lift earlier than later, these little variables can make a difference. And all of a sudden, you may or may not be able to hit the reps yet. How are you going to handle those situations?
Carl Berryman 28:02
Oh, it's it's the same way that I that I handle, handle anywhere else, it's knowing in advance that it's going to happen? Yeah, knowing in advance that it's going to happen, and making sure that I have tools in place that are going to enable me to emotionally manage that. Yeah, like say, for example, squats right now. I can squat about as much as I bench because the thing is, with squats, I'm always super concerned about my back, which means I'm just I'm going into it with the wrong mindset. So I'm trying out different different variations of the squat as well, like the back squat, for sure. But in terms of like, when those plateaus come just knowing in advance, okay, this is this is exactly what I need. Because what this is telling me is that what I did to get where I am is no longer working. So I need to grow in some way, shape or form in order to get to that next level of me. So that's like, I'm really starting one of the questions that I've really gotten the habit of asking, that's kind of annoying, actually, is when like shit hits the fan and things start going wrong. It's like, what am I supposed to learn here? Like, what am I what am I missing? What do I need to do differently? And I start really diving down and I say annoying, because there's a part of me that wants to play the victim. But it's just the had I give myself a little bit a little bit of time for that sometimes, but not really. It's like no, Kay, you're stuck and you're stuck for a reason. What are you missing? How can you expand your like this? Is i I hate saying cliche stuff like the whole thing like look at as it as an off failure as an opportunity. Yeah, and everything like that. But the reason like cliches are cliches for a reason. Right? So there's some truth. Sure. Yeah, there definitely is. So yeah, just knowing the plant says okay, I'm stuck. Not only what can I do, but who can ask for help. Which is what you and I do all the time, right? Yeah, it's like who can ask for help? Who who can give me a spot on this? Who is Who knows more than I do, which I've done a lot of people know a hell of a lot more than me. What can I ask them in order to help me get through this? So you can lean on right now? Who do I need a spot from? Like, mentally, emotionally, physically, in any way, shape or form?
Philip Pape 30:15
Don't you find that, and I totally agree both wins and struggles reaching out to people. And I want to make I want to bring up both because, like, this morning, you know, a guy said, yes, he's gonna be my podcast, I was super excited. Like, I want to tell everybody, you know, like, I want to get that validation and support from people who know that I'm trying to do this, and that this is a successful outcome of what I did. But similarly with the struggles, if, like you just said, reaching out to your support structure, sometimes information online, Google, whatever, that's that you can look that up to try to help there's nothing like another human being that you connect to? Who could just raise that up to the next level, right? You think that?
Carl Berryman 30:53
Oh, that 100%? Like there's a time and place for both? The latter in terms of reaching out to somebody because what I'm going to find is I actually, you know, Bobby T, I had a really good conversation with him yesterday. And he pointed out something to me with regards to my language, that if I'm struggling with something, and I go and google it, I might not be asking the right question. Because I'm stuck in some type of tunnel vision that this is the problem I need to solve. Whereas having a conversation with somebody like you or somebody like Bobby t, what they're gonna say is Carl, do you realize what the real problem is here? Like, it's got nothing to do with what you think it is? Like? Did you hear what you just said? So you've got that outside observer, which Google will never like friends will always be able to give you answers. He can't go. Yeah. So that's why it's so important to have those people in your life that that a are willing to step up and say que this is what's really going on. Like you're you're looking, what you're seeing right now is not what's actually going on. So I'm going to first I'm gonna give you the truth here, it's going to hurt. But you know, they're doing it with love and compassion in order to help you. So yeah, friends over Google 10 times out of 10 Any day
Philip Pape 32:09
until the until AI gets to that level. Just kidding. I don't want to get in there. I want to I want to rephrase what I just heard you say, right, because I think of it also as challenging the premise of the question, mean, you're asking a question. I'm struggling with this. How can I fix why x y? And it's like, well, you're asking, you're asking the wrong question, right? You have the channel, your struggle, isn't this, it's this and I can just give a very practical example that comes to mind and somebody asked me the other day, how do I, how do I do these, like exercises for some muscle group? And, and I said, Well, why are you asking? Well, because my, my, I can't squat? And I'm like, Okay, well, that it's the wrong question.
Carl Berryman 32:54
What's wrong with my squat?
Philip Pape 32:56
Anyway, that's a very, very high level example. But it's a good one. Hey, this is Philip. And I hope you're enjoying this episode of Wits & Weights. If you're finding value in the content and want to stay up to date with all our latest episodes, be sure to hit the Follow button on your favorite podcast platform. By following you'll get notified whenever a new episode comes out. And you won't miss out on knowledge and strategies to level up your health and fitness. Alright, let's get back to the episode. Yeah, so then. So speaking of your support system, then if you think of just this, this muscle building phase, because I've seen a lot of change in you, mentally? I mean, obviously, physically, I haven't been monitoring your physical numbers.
Carl Berryman 33:33
Oh, you have the selfies? No, no, I
Philip Pape 33:36
have it. You're not like submitting check ins or anything. But mentally How have your brothers in the support system contributed or detracted from I know, they're not detracting I hope but how are they contributing to this process since you started,
Carl Berryman 33:50
I'm mainly like the the guys that have here in Winnipeg, it was just, it was just really nice to they're not shy to give a compliment. So we all went out. And we went to this place called activate where you do kind of like these skill games, but they're also physical games, right? So there can be climbing. There could be basketball, there could be lasers like your Yeah, yeah, it's awesome. And when we got back, I was making burgers for everybody. So I'm in the kitchen. And they're like, Carl, your arms look jacked. And then I was like, Oh, cool. Like Jenny Lee tells me that all the time. But that's, that's a biased opinion. Right? And so they tell me that stuff and it's like, yeah, okay, it's like it. I see myself every day. So I don't really know the difference. So that's how they support me there. But then also just something as simple as like Bobby T, for example, asked me how it's going. And this is the one of the things that I really, I found, I need to shy away from with regards to online communities. Because I know online communities are all about like one of the main reasons people go there is for accountability. And yet people don't hold each other accountable for In my experience, some do some don't. And the way you hold people accountable is simply by following up with them. And so I've got brothers in my life who are following up with me with this stuff. And just note, like you, I know, we're going to be talking about this not just today, but all the time. So it's like, if ever, I feel like not doing the food prep of thought, and that actually, I'm really hoping we can get into that muscle up I did the other day, because this is a perfect transition into it of how you inspired some change. So inside, like, whenever I'm having my do it almost seven days a week, but I do my journaling experience, right every morning. And so the whole point of it is to, if I'm having a problem, I want to find a solution, and I want to be able to take action on it like today. So problem I wrote down was I plateau with my weights, which means there's something I need to test track and manage to get back on track, what is the smallest and simplest adjustments I can make that will have the biggest impact. So for each area of the prep work, for me, this, in this case, be in physical health and fitness, right? I have usually like I've got a lot of sources I go to for inspiration, but I'll have one book for each that just is like the Bible for that area. Atomic habits is for physical health and fitness. So the quote I got from there was many people begin the process of changing their habits by focusing on what they want to achieve. This leads us to outcome based habits. The alternative is to build identity based habits. With this approach, we focus on who we wish to become. So really long story short, with this one, I decided who I want to become is a success story for Philip. Because I don't want to let you down. I don't want I don't I don't want to let you down. I want I want to come on your podcast a year from now. And be able to say this is how Philips health this is how field helped me. I followed his advice in so many different ways like not just with the nutritional advice, not just with like what weights do and exercise and stuff like that not but just so much more like just mental and emotional support and love and compassion, everything like that. I want to be the type of person that follows through for my brothers to help my brothers out. So this has to be more this has to be about more than just me I don't I don't want to let you down. As soon as I make it about somebody else. For whatever reason. We have a tendency to to stick to the things that we want to do a lot more. So I don't want to let you down so I did something the other day that I haven't. I've been trying to get myself to do for months. I don't know why it's so stupid. It was just making shakes. Like prepping shakes having those prep because I know when I'm not hungry, they're super calorie dense. And I can get them in and it's it's good. If I if I like all of a sudden something comes up and I don't have time for anything. I can bring it with me. Yeah. So I said okay, as soon as I'm done this, my one small physical and simple action was go to the grocery store, get what you need come home and prep before I do anything else. And I did it. So now I got four more shakes sitting in the fridge. So long story long story long ago. I don't want to let you down.
Philip Pape 37:56
No. And that's that I'm thinking about that as well now that you brought it up, and I knew we'd learned things on the show and I hope people listen to this take that. It's I think you took the identity based habit and then you enhanced it with his Astros of let's let's make it about somebody else that we care about in our life and and just make it so deep. And so driving, that any deviation from that means we're letting that person down in addition to ourselves, which is really powerful.
Carl Berryman 38:20
Yeah, it's like, rather than just be so the I am statements isn't just the identity thing isn't just about who I want to be. It's who I want to be for this person, or for this community. Like I, the way that I look at it, I have to be the guy that is leading the way for all the brothers, I have to I the the only way I can do that is by just living by example. Right? So if I just don't make the shakes, or I stay where I am. That's not That's not me. Cool.
Philip Pape 38:50
So now let's let's let's get into the day to day here, right kind of process to achieve that. Because you mentioned the shakes. And we talked about tracking and things like that. How do you measure everything going on. So besides besides scale weight, which we talked about on the show, and just to recap, at least my philosophy is your daily weight on the scale can fluctuate tremendously based on fluid and based on inflammation and other factors for women based on their cycle, bloating, how many carbs you had, et cetera, et cetera. There's like 20 different factors. So it can go up and down. And guys that are kind of in our weight range. It can go up and down. Three, four, even five pounds in a day, depending on what's going on our weight range. You're giving me a lot of credit. Well, yeah.
Carl Berryman 39:30
How much are you? How much are you right now?
Philip Pape 39:32
I'm still down at like 170 something low.
Carl Berryman 39:35
Okay, so you've got 20 something pounds on?
Philip Pape 39:37
Yeah, it's in the ballpark. We're in the same alright, I'm flattered. The thing about human beings is like there's a normal curve, right, like most people fall in the similar weight range, similar height range and so on. So you end up getting used to these numbers and kind of making the connections. So where was I going with this Karl Popper tucked away day to day? Yeah. So so like one measure is your weight? then you have to be careful to, to use the right aspect about like, so for me, it's a 20 day moving average and that and I use a food logging app to see that, but you can just calculate that. What else are you measuring? Because I was thinking, if you felt like you were interrupted Sunday, and you didn't have the shakes, or you did have the shakes, but you didn't feel hungry? or what have you? How do you know at the end of the day, you got what you needed to get.
Carl Berryman 40:25
So for me, the main thing that I'm measuring right now, from a physical, I guess, a weight standpoint is I use the Renfrow scale, right? So it's got it gives you everything, some of the things on there aren't very accurate. I know that the body weights and the lean muscle are accurate. So that's what I'm doing. And since, man, it's been, it's been a couple of months now, where before, I was only doing it once a week, right. And then you suggested doing it every day. And I'm like, I don't want to do this every day. But I'll do it. Because I don't know everything about everything. So I started doing it every day. And it was it got really interesting, because what I would notice is the graph, if I were to pull it out, it goes really slow like this, and then bump and down. And then a little bit higher, boom, and down. So there's always a dip before and up. But I've noticed like it's very, very, very incremental. But like this, like this straight line right here, actually isn't a straight line. It's, it's like this, right? So say, for example, this this past weekend, when I was just, um, man, my emotions control the way I eat a hardcore. So and for me, I don't I don't binge. When I feel like crap emotionally. I do the opposite. I don't eat. I don't eat. Okay. So but since I've been getting on scale every day,
Philip Pape 41:49
which is a problem now, and he's trying to get away. So it's just yeah, yeah. All right, yeah.
Carl Berryman 41:54
So, but since I was weighing myself every day, when I hopped on the scale, after not eating, I actually had my highest weight. And so and so there's just, there was no rhyme or reason to that, which is why it's so important to have that data. Because when you can go the data because I don't want to, I don't want to base how like the results I'm getting on how I feel. Because just like when I used to take the glamor shots, like I take one every week, there'll be weeks where it's like, oh, I had a bad work week, I wasn't eating that good. These are gonna look horrible. I compare it to the last week, it's either the same or better. So you need that data there. So for me the primary one right now yeah, I'm looking at that every day so that I can make sure I'm managing that. But then the the bigger one is inside the gym. Like I want my lifts to be going up every single workout in some way, shape or form. Like if I'm doing the same number of reps was Rep Number Five cleaner than last week? Am I going up in weight? Am I getting to six reps instead of five today? So just those are what's most important, but also, like third on the list, there is the aesthetic part of it, right? Like I'm just how are my clothes fitting, I've got the one shirt that I the arms are definitely tighter. And that's that was that was my goal going in. So now I'm gonna have to buy a bigger shirt, because I thought it would take me way longer to fit into this shirt. But it's it's, it's tight now. So that that is also important.
Philip Pape 43:18
Okay, so if backing off a bit, so you're going by your lifts. But what if it you said you were in a weight stall for about a month now? Yeah. Okay, so what's going on there?
Carl Berryman 43:30
What's going on there is I haven't been accurately so I've got my food prep down. Okay, so that's good to go. And that worked for me to get me to where I am now. And now I'm at that point where I need to try something different. So starting next week, I'm going to be tracking something different. So the thing I'm going to start tracking is my shakes plus three, how many and by shakes plus three, I mean, three meals, if I get in my shakes, and three meals, I'm making a hypothesis that that is going to help me break through the plateau. Because that's going to be that will up my calories. So but I want to have data on that. So and for me when I say my meals, my meals are I know even without tracking them that they are the same because I've done my food prep and I'm only eating out once a week the only option I have is to eat what I prepped so those meals are done in advance so it's not like oh no I am eating three more meals but I went out here and I went out here and there's there's no variation in what I eat. I eat the same three things every single day. Every single day.
Philip Pape 44:34
Yeah, and that's important the routine is important so for folks listening and here's the thing having that routine for some people will drive them crazy. Right For me it's
Carl Berryman 44:43
super easy. Don't get me wrong though. Like it's not every single day for months like the whole it shifts I enjoy Yeah, like so the menu will shift so yeah, like spaghetti is on the menu. Pierogi casseroles on the menu this week and tacos are on the menu and then I've got my breakfast burrito and So anyway,
Philip Pape 45:01
so I'm so hesitant to like want to challenge you, Carl here.
Carl Berryman 45:05
That's the point of this conversation and this ship is the host.
Philip Pape 45:09
Yeah. And it's the going back to the tracking thing. I'm like, I hear Oh, hold
Carl Berryman 45:14
on, before you before you. Why are you challenging me? What is your intent?
Philip Pape 45:18
Okay? My intent is to have you think of all the different perspectives of why or why not you're using but why and specific tools so that you get more precision and progress. Okay,
Carl Berryman 45:29
so you were looking out for me by challenging? Oh, there
Philip Pape 45:31
you go. All right.
Carl Berryman 45:33
Where are you going with this, so I should be inviting this. And that's, that's one of the things I was really looking forward to here. I know I'm in a plateau. I know Philip is going to challenge something I have. In other words, he's going to cause me to step outside my box, which is only going to lead me to where I want to go. So challenge me only one.
Philip Pape 45:48
So just going back to the tracking thing, because I hear I hear I don't want to call them rationalizations I want to call them they could be their techniques, or you're trying to come up with and be clever and think and, and solutions to the problem of why is the weight stalled, knowing that you need more calories, like just break it down very simply any more calories without actually measuring the calories. Right, right. You're indirectly as we proxy measures, measuring the calories. And if you are eating like a robot and literally the exact same thing every day for months on end, like bodybuilders do. I could see that that almost having a meal plan, which is its own box for some people, right having a meal plan, that I could see you making the progress, but then I hear that what you're doing right now isn't working right. So then I go back to track and I'm like, what is the real problem, you have a tracking, one of the problems you said was you don't like the stacking that on top of something that's relaxing, which is prepping your food or cooking? And then and then I might ask, Well, is there a different way you can track that doesn't do that, like tracking it afterward, like tracking it an hour later as part of your journaling or documentation or looking at your other numbers? or what have you, you know, it could be taking a picture in the moment of what you eat. And then later on tracking it does separate from that activity. Just just one little thing that came to mind. Is that the only problem? Or are there other things about tracking that are just not going to work for you
Carl Berryman 47:10
know that? I don't know if that's the only problem. But that already starts to make sense. Like what if I just if the problem is for me doing it while I'm doing something that I'm supposed to enjoy? Why don't I have a specific time for doing these things? Then like why don't I do it another time. So my cooking is done. But then it's like, hey, maybe when I've got some downtime, I go back, I grab all the boxes, I grab the labels, and I figure it out. So like that makes sense to me. So that's something that I'd be willing to try. Now, to answer your question, is there anything else that is stopping me from doing it?
Philip Pape 47:50
Like if you did that, if you hypothetically put yourself in that position of okay, I'm gonna do it later. And maybe there's an easy way to do that, without even having to grab all the boxes, it could be like what I do when I go to a restaurant, I just put in the basic common foods into the app and ballpark it. And that's actually that actually results in a more accurate number than not doing it is what the science shows and what kind of experience tends to show even if you're within 30% plus or minus, it tends to average out and at least gives you a box where you can up it each week knowing that you have that target. So
Carl Berryman 48:24
there's a story playing in my head, that I'd be willing to investigate and see if it's not accurate. I just, there's something about me that is very resistant to making, eating. It's it almost doesn't even make sense trying to try to say it out loud. I'm not quite sure. See, I'm trying to I'm not making eating a cold, like, data driven thing. Yeah, like I can do it like I can because it's a human experience. Yeah, I can do it inside the gym, so I'm not sure. The question I'm gonna have to ask myself is how do I still keep this as much of an enjoyable human experience while still getting accurate on the data? Like that's the question that's a question I need to ask myself.
Philip Pape 49:08
It's a fair question when you when you look at the end analogy so you mentioned the gym being on you're kind of your advocate here at the gym, going to a gym and lifting weights is not really a natural human experience. We've we've created these boxes with these, you know bars and plates and like in real life, quote unquote real life our ancestors would have just lived their lives and picked up you know, heavy stuff and and they wouldn't have gotten as jacked as we're trying to get let's be honest, it'd be somewhere course.
Carl Berryman 49:34
Yeah, there's so
Philip Pape 49:37
you look at, you know, hunter gatherer tribes or what have you. And then another energy analogy I often use is banking. And you can argue that it also is an artificial construct of like having money and having budgets and stuff, and it's, so we need to treat it that way. So I get all that I get all that. But I also go back to you wanting to build muscle efficiently, effectively, to get to this goal. What's the best way we can do that and what are the best tools for it and you will said doing something you don't like you could eventually, either like it or at least not notice it if it's part of your routine,
Carl Berryman 50:05
right, but Okay, so you're going back to what we said earlier in conversation. And the other thing I'm going to challenge myself on, is what if I started doing it and all of a sudden, I got to my goal way faster than I expected. Like, what if instead of me saying, You know what, I don't like doing this, because of this? What if I said, you know, what, what if this actually gets me to where I want to go faster, like that might be able to change because really, it's my emotional connection to the activity that I need to address. It's not the activity itself. It's my emotional connection. And the stories I'm telling myself about that. Because there is a way to make it fun. Like, I love doing burpees. How, like, that's insane. That is insane. Why does? Yeah, why do I love doing burpees? Because I have different stories and emotional connections associated with them. So maybe now it's me looking at my stories and my emotional connection I have to tracking diligently that I need to address and who knows, it might end up being one of those things where I do it. I'm like, I hate to say this, but I should have listened to Philip.
Philip Pape 51:05
You never know, man. But but you'll have information you'll know, you'll know. Truly just despise this with all your passion. And it's just not something for you. And you know, there's there's things like that in our lives. How can you say, Yes, you know, I still don't like Squatch I'll be honest, I'll say it out loud. I love deadlifts with back squats. And maybe it's not that I don't like them. I just look forward to them with a little bit of dread every time. Why? First several reasons. It's one is the back issues I used to have. And I know you mentioned something similar, which gets me to be very focused on my form and do things the right way. But the other thing is, it's I'm not as strong in the back squat as I would like to be. So that's one of the things I know I have to do it to push it. And that's what drives me to do it. And I do that. Yeah. So I'm fine with that though. I'm fine. Because I know, in the moment, I'm like, why am I doing this? Why am I doing? But you know, I focus and I do it, and I push? And then when I'm done. I'm like, Ah, so glad I did. But
Carl Berryman 52:01
this brings up another interesting argument, though, or discussion, I should say in terms of, at what point do we stop trying to fix our weakest weaknesses and just accept our strengths and run with that? So that's I don't know. Yeah, that's a whole note. We don't leave that for the audience to answer. Yeah, they can they can give you some feedback on that one. Give us some answers.
Philip Pape 52:20
Yeah, man. All right. So what else? What is anything really surprised you about yourself? During this process?
Carl Berryman 52:28
Yeah. The deadlifts for sure. I didn't, like just, I was looking to get back up to so the most I've ever done in my life. And this was just a challenge for one rep was three plates, right? So 315. And that was like the first time I tried it. I didn't get it up. And then this guy who was much taller than me, and much thinner than me, got it up. I'm like, Yeah, this isn't acceptable. So I stepped back up to the bar, and I got it up. But I know that was a one time thing. But what actually, this is what surprised me the most so far throughout this experience as it relates to this is both inside the gym and outside the gym. And I'm really glad that I had the experience that I did. I had an inside the gym and then outside the gym experience on the same day. So I'm going to do dad's, and at that point, I think the max I was doing for six reps was, oh, no, I did 235 for five one week. Okay. So then the next week, I'm like, Okay, well, we're gonna go for 240 For sure, if not 245 On the third set. So second set on my cane, put on what you did last week, and let's get it for six before you go up in weight. Let's Max up our reps before we max out the weight. And so I go up to the bar, and I'm like, I'm getting myself all psyched up and everything like that. And I go and I lift it. I'm struggling. I get it like halfway up my shins and then just put it back down on the first rep. Yeah, yeah, kind of first step. So and then I sit down afterwards. I'm like, Carl, you did this five times last week, you're telling me you can't do it once now. So then a strategy that's always always worked for me, in every single one of my workouts is just have a nice relaxing workout. That's it, I just remove expectation, I have fun, I go up to the bar, make sure my form is good. So I waited about two minutes, I went and I pulled out six reps. And then I put 240 on the bar and I did six reps. And so it was just it reminded me to just relax, not put so much pressure on myself. And it's funny because later that day, I was about to have like one of my emotional breakdowns and what that looks like for me as I get anxious, I get nervous and then I cancel things and I just shut down I'll either watch Netflix or I just totally seclude myself. And it was a date night with Jenny Lee the last day that I want to be doing that. I said, Carl, you know what, just have a nice, relaxing evening which anyway, just focus on relaxing. That's it. You'll do what you need to do, and it ended up being an unbelievable date night. All because I just I remove expectation. I let the unconscious takeover Like, pardon me, I've been training diligently for over 20 years, I let it take over and trust that it's going to do what I need it to do. And that's exactly what the body did in that situation in the gym. And that's exactly what my mind did when I left the gym. So that was fun.
Philip Pape 55:14
That's like the this is the the epitome of mind muscle connection, because it's, it's your psychological state. It's not even in the moment. You know, what comes to mind, there's I lived in, I lived in my home gym by myself. And I know a lot of people like to get psyched up when they go for a lift, or they listen to the loud, you know, heavy rock music, or they get the camaraderie of the competition. And I don't like all that stuff. I like when I when I go for my set, I turn off everything. And I just listen to myself, my body and tell them give myself cues. And that is kind of a form of relaxing, I think, if people listening are wondering if they've been struggling with their lives, and maybe it is putting too much pressure on themselves. What Carl just said could be game changing for you.
Carl Berryman 55:55
It's a form of relaxation, but it's also a form of strength in that like, because for me what I do now whenever I'm working out, I always listen to a podcast episode that I'm going to be posting because I listen to the nuggets. But as soon as I get ready to my set, pause. Yeah, put it on pause all the time. And it reminds me of something that Goggins said, he said, if you're listening to music while you're working out, you're cheating. Yeah, yeah. Because you need like, when I say at strength, it's because fewer places where you will you be introduced to the demons that are really inside you than in the gym. Yeah, like if you shut everything else off, and listen to the voices that are coming up, when you're getting ready to do a weight that you didn't think you can lift, man, you're gonna be surprised at some of the shit that those voices talk in your head just and then being able to defeat those demons like today when I did the 205. Like, I told my buddy was give me a spot him like, Hey, I'm going for two. We'll see if we get we'll see if we get four. And then as I'm sitting on the bench, and I go to lie down, I'm getting myself position. It's like, you've never done this before Carl, or I haven't done it for like 10 years anyways. Yeah. And it's like, you know what? We are. We're gonna crush this and then sure enough to was easy. And we got to four. So it was nice after the fact being able to say like, yeah, those voices in my head. I'm gonna turn the volume down on those guys. Yeah,
Philip Pape 57:19
man, enjoy it, enjoy it, because you've got months ahead of you.
Carl Berryman 57:22
I know. I know. Two plants on the bench is coming right around the corner. For sure.
Philip Pape 57:28
Yeah. So what I mean, how do you know when you're done? How do you know when you're done? And then like, you've captured the flag on your muscle building process? And then you have to switch focus? Potentially,
Carl Berryman 57:40
I think you know my answer. Oh, switch focus. Okay. Because you're never done? Well, I mean, not gonna say never done this. For me. Um, I have a number in my head, like, I would like to, I've always wanted to be 165. I've never been 165 in my entire life. So for me, it's about getting to that number. Irregardless of performance, even muscle aesthetics, anything. It's all about proving that I can do something that I never thought was possible. Yeah, that's it. So like, that is the number one goal for me. And just proving I could do somebody didn't think was possible. But in terms of switching gears,
Philip Pape 58:22
well, when you when you get there, are you going to stay there for a while?
Carl Berryman 58:26
That's a good question. Yeah. That's a good question. Um, I'm going to see how much Jenny Lee can not keep her hands off. Now. If, if my if the amount of physical attention I get from Jenny Lee goes up with my weight, then who knows? Maybe 175. But if it starts going down, I know I need to cut so
Philip Pape 58:45
there'll be more to grab. Yeah. So and I asked also for a practical reason, because when you hit that weight, if you just stop and go back to maintenance, you may drop because of the Oh, yeah. ARBs. So overshoot it by like, a couple pounds or three pounds.
Carl Berryman 59:01
So 165 is my overshoot right now. Okay, because because I know I hear well, I know when I cut, like, even if I were to drop down to 155, that's 15 more pounds on me than I was walking around with for years. So okay, in pounds on a frame this big, is, that's gonna be healthy. That's gonna be pretty healthy to
Philip Pape 59:22
165 is just that that one day, you get it on the scale, boom, you hit that number,
Carl Berryman 59:25
right? As soon as I can already tell because as soon as you said, I'm like, No, I can. I would love to see a one seven, a one seven, something would be all that would be solid.
Philip Pape 59:36
Well, that's the cool thing about this is like you have a lot of runway honestly, you do because you started pretty darn lean. So you have that runway to keep pushing, pushing, pushing, pushing. And I mean, I would say go until you just feel like that's it you know, it's okay to go to a hotel. I
Carl Berryman 59:50
started hating the process. 18 months. Yeah, it's like a long way. Yeah, if it gets to the point where it's like just every single time I eat I'm like, Just too falling out of my mouth that forget. So
Philip Pape 1:00:03
I know if and when that starts to happen because sometimes it doesn't happen. It depends on how many calories you have, like if you're leaner and you're not up in the four something range. What do you think you're eating right now?
Carl Berryman 1:00:14
Calorie wise, calorie wise? I can't even give you a number. Yeah, okay. Okay.
Philip Pape 1:00:19
So if you start tracking, I'd be curious. It's not
Carl Berryman 1:00:22
if it's like, that is what I'm taking away. Okay. Is many things I'm taking away from this conversation I, I will begin tracking and I will begin taking a look at my emotional relationship to tracking Awesome, so yeah, give it give it a month, like commit to a month. If you can't, don't give me what I tell you tell you what a strategy, or a principle that works for me and kind of principles slash strategy is a lot of times not thinking too far down the road. Like, say when I'm doing my 500 burpees? I can't think about the 500. I've got to think about those first 25 Got it. That's so for me, like I'll do 30 But I'm just going to focus on the five. Okay, focus on five
Philip Pape 1:01:00
start today. But tomorrow, whenever you're starting. Okay, it's partway through the day. So
Carl Berryman 1:01:05
no, no, but no, it doesn't though. Because remember, what we said is I just need to track stuff like you need to track it after the fact true if you have the information from what you ate earlier apps, right, which, which I do, because all I've had was a banana and a protein shake. So let's see. Okay, we'll start today.
Philip Pape 1:01:21
All right. So Carl, man, you know what I'm gonna ask next. I want to ask it of you again.
Carl Berryman 1:01:25
Oh, man, I can't believe I wasn't ready for this. What question
Philip Pape 1:01:32
did you wish I'd asked? And what is your answer?
Carl Berryman 1:01:34
What question do I wish you had asked? Let's see. I'm gonna go with the same question and give you a different answer. Because the question I asked last time, that was, what am I embarrassed about? That I am ashamed that I'm embarrassed about that I wish I wasn't embarrassed about. And it's how little I appreciate and love myself for the work that I'm doing. And the reason I say that is because there's this awesome guy named Mark that comes into the gym. Super nice guy. He actually works there, too. I see him there this morning. hadn't seen him a couple of weeks. He comes in, he's wearing a tank top. And he looked he looked good. Like he looked any he hadn't even started working out. Yeah, like, his shoulders were pop and he had some good size. Like he looked. He looked better than the last time I saw him. So I went up to him. As soon as I was done training my clients. I'm like, Hey, dude, like, you're looking good. He's like, Oh, thanks, man. I'm like, you haven't even started yet? How do you look like that? Like, that's like, I want to look like that when I have a pump. But and he's quite a bit bigger than me too. So I was jealous. And as I'm walking away, I'm thinking, Carl, like, you look at all these people that you say they're doing good. And you'll even go up to them and say they're doing good. And you're comparing yourself to them saying I should be more like that. Like, what is it going to take for me to finally accept myself? What is it going to take for me to finally accept that all this work I'm putting in is, is doing something good? Like, what is it going to take for me to be able to accept a compliment? Like I, as soon as people give me compliments? I, I've gotten better at it. But I just shrug it off. Like I make some type of joke or excuse. And it's because I'm super uncomfortable with it. I'm super uncomfortable acknowledging the fact that all the hard work that I dedicate myself to is actually paying off. Is it any wonder why I don't like the process sometimes, because I'm not taking the time to acknowledge myself for the hard work I'm putting in. So I, I wish I didn't shit on myself as much as I did. And I really wish that I took time to acknowledge the work that I'm putting in. And is
Philip Pape 1:03:35
this a? Is this a practice that you want to do more of for yourself? Or is this learning to accept others compliments,
Carl Berryman 1:03:42
it's a practice I want to do more for myself and I already have things in place that I've just postponed. So I've got like, I think I've talked to you about my cookie jar. And my cookie jar is just for those who don't know, it's, it's literally wooden cookies, and you you paint dots on them. So it looks like chocolate chips. But on the other side, you write down the date and something you've either accomplished, or something that you at least had the courage to try and Jenny Lee got me this cookie jar, and she put like 60 cookies in there for me. And there's all these things in there the day I quit Canada Post my very first for our boot camp. And there's a lot of stuff in there that I tried and failed that but I had the courage to try. And I went and bought 60 More cookies like two months ago. And I haven't made another one yet. Because to me every single when I used to go in the cookie jar, I'd pull it out and it was like I use them for bookmarks or in the morning right before I leave. I was just going there to remind me like Carl, you've done some pretty amazing shit. Like you need to stop and just take a breath and reflect on the fact that you are you are literally being the change you wish to see in your world. Like I've got it tattooed on my arm. I am being the man that I want to be and I'm not I don't have I have the practices set up for it and I haven't taken the time to implement those practices.
Philip Pape 1:04:52
Well, dude, you've impacted my life for the better. And I know individuals you've impacted and you know that you know, they cuz there's people that are in our circle. I want you to text me with that first new cookie you Okay? There we go.
Carl Berryman 1:05:07
Okay. Okay. All right, I promise you, I will have one Dental. Yeah. And that's
Philip Pape 1:05:12
great. I mean, this is a form of gratitude for yourself, honestly. And you know, and I know you talked to Darlene just like I didn't have daily gratitude practice is a good thing to have. And I liked that idea. I might, I might steal that idea as a way to do it for myself in some way. So thank you, Carl. Man, I think this was just what we expected and more, I hope, and
Carl Berryman 1:05:32
always, buddy, this is you know, thank you for the amazing questions. Thank you. Thank you for having the courage to challenge me because that's what I talked about earlier. Right. Like that's, that's what I love about our relationship is we're not shy on challenging others perspectives. And at the same time, we will defend where we know our truth is so I love that for us,
Philip Pape 1:05:48
for sure. And I hope the listeners feel like they can challenge themselves challenge each other look for their support structures. Listen back to the episode with you know, whatever resonates with you and take action on it today, because that's really what we're all about. Always a pleasure talking to you, my brother.
Carl Berryman 1:06:05
Thank you remember.
Philip Pape 1:06:09
If you've been inspired by today's interview, and are ready to take action and build momentum on your health and fitness journey, just schedule a free 30 minute nutrition momentum call with me using the link in my show notes. I promise not to sell or pitch you on anything, but I will help you gain some perspective and guidance so we can get you on the right track toward looking and feeling your best
Ep 73: Breaking Free of the Clean Plate Club for Sustainable Weight Loss with Lisa Salisbury
Today I’m excited to have Lisa Salisbury join me to explore the role of our higher brain in making better decisions about our health and the concept of portion distortion and its impact on our food choices. In this episode, Lisa talks about listening to our bodies, the negative effects of the clean plate club mindset, food waste, and sustainable eating.
Today I’m excited to have Lisa Salisbury join me to explore the role of our higher brain in making better decisions about our health and the concept of portion distortion and its impact on our food choices. In this episode, Lisa talks about listening to our bodies, the negative effects of the clean plate club mindset, food waste, and sustainable eating.
Lisa is a weight loss life coach who helps women shed pounds without tracking food. Her personal struggle with chronic dieting drives her expertise in breaking free and achieving weight loss success through coaching.
Lisa is a certified Health Coach through the Institute of Integrative Nutrition and a certified Life Coach and Weight Loss Coach through The Life Coach School. She also has a BS from Brigham Young University in Health and Human Performance.
__________
Book a FREE 30-minute call with Philip here.
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Today you’ll learn all about:
[2:13] Lisa’s personal journey from chronic dieter to health, life, and weight loss coach
[7:15] Using our higher brain to make better health and wellness decisions
[12:22] The importance of a long-term, sustainable approach to eating and how to achieve it
[18:24] Portion distortion and how it impacts our food choices
[21:29] The impact of the clean plate club and strategies for breaking free from this mindset
[22:54] Stephanie shares her experience with her one-on-one nutrition coaching with Philip
[25:06] Food waste and why it’s important to address
[28:16] Overcoming portion distortion and learning to listen to our bodies
[30:24] The diet mentality and diets with end dates
[34:30] Overcoming the mindset of labeling foods as “good” or “bad”
[38:54] How to pick “power foods” that work for your body and lifestyle
[40:36] Success stories of others who have transformed their relationship with food and their body, and the impact on other areas of their lives
[42:50] Choosing the exercise you do
[47:14] Where can you learn more about Lisa
[48:18] Outro
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Transcript
Lisa Salisbury 00:00
Everything really that puts us in that diet mentality is can be really damaging to creating a lifestyle that you really want to live if you're looking at your future self five years, 10 years, you know, however many years down the road and you can't picture yourself eating this way. That's a diet.
Philip Pape 00:21
Welcome to the Wits & Weights podcast. I'm your host, Philip pape, and this twice a week podcast is dedicated to helping you achieve physical self mastery by getting stronger. Optimizing your nutrition and upgrading your body composition will uncover science backed strategies for movement, metabolism, muscle and mindset with a skeptical eye on the fitness industry, so you can look and feel your absolute best. Let's dive right in. Welcome to another episode of Wits & Weights. Today I'm excited to have Lisa Salisbury join me to explore the role of our higher brain in making better decisions about our health, and the concept of portion distortion and its impact on our food choices. In this episode, Lisa reveals how to listen to our bodies and discusses the harmful impact of the clean plate club mindset. We're also going to delve into the issue of food waste and the importance of a long term sustainable approach to eating. Lisa Solsbury is a health and weight loss life coach for women who want to lose weight without counting and calculating their food. As a former chronic Dieter, Lisa knows what it's like to be all consumed with everything that goes into your mouth. It was only when she learned the tools and skills through coaching that she was able to drop the dieting obsession and drop her weight. Lisa is a certified health coach through Institute of Integrative Nutrition, and a certified life coach and weight loss coach through the Life Coach School. She also has a BS from Brigham Young University and health and human performance. She takes her clients through a 12 week program designed to help them eat well think well and live well. When you learn the skill of paying attention to your body and losing weight. You'll be surprised at how it translates into other areas of life. And Lisa also shares many of her best tools and solutions on her podcast. Eat well think well live. Well make sure to subscribe. And Lisa, welcome to the show.
Lisa Salisbury 02:08
Thank you so much. Appreciate it. Glad to be here.
Philip Pape 02:11
Absolutely. Thanks for coming on. And you know, I mentioned in the intro that like many of us and many people listening your former chronic Dieter, right, the yo yo diets, you try it, you probably tried a lot of different things. And then you learned and grew. And you develop these skills that help you drop the obsession. Now you're paying it forward with your coaching as a health life and weight loss coach. So tell us more about the discoveries, the transformation that you went through that now give you this power and ability to help people today?
Lisa Salisbury 02:40
Yeah, so I was on a roller coaster of diets. It's I started dieting in high school when several adults made mention that I should lose some weight, which is like crazy when I look back on pictures. Yeah, so you know, just then I went on to get married had four children. So those years 910 years of being either pregnant or breastfeeding. So the in between times was just an absolute roller coaster. I just thought, well, I got it, I kind of get my weight down before I get pregnant again, blah, blah, blah. And then you know, with my last baby, I've told this story lots of times, it's very rare that you can really think about your thoughts so long ago unless you have a journal that you like, specifically wrote it down in but I distinctly remember having the thought, this is the last time I can be fat. Like how was so much scarcity around that. So in an untrue like being pregnant is not the same as being overweight in any way, shape, or form. But this is where my brain was like I'm just being honest with what I was thinking. But you know what that created is I have to eat all these foods now. Because I'm not going to be able to eat them later.
Philip Pape 03:57
This is this my only moment. Yeah, this this Yeah, nine months and time.
Lisa Salisbury 04:01
This is the last time I'll be allowed. And then everyone will tell me I have to lose weight. And so, you know, my youngest is 15. It took me still several several years after that. To get to the point of being ready for coaching. I just decided all these diets like this one is going to work for sure this one that tells me what to eat on Monday and Tuesday and then something different on Wednesday and Thursday. And now broccoli is off limits for Friday, Saturday, Sunday. Like it didn't make any sense the kinds of diets that I was doing. And so I ended up really heavy into counting and calculating weighing all my food to the point where I was bringing my food scale to the dinner table in front of my children. And I know that there are people out there that absolutely can count calories and count macros in a healthy way. It wasn't for me. I think it's just part of my personality part of where my brain goes. It creates A lot of obsession and a lot of anxiety. And so when I would go to a restaurant, for example, and not be able to figure out the nutritional information, like just just a calorie count wasn't good enough, I had to know how many protein macros. So I went one or two ways, I would just not enjoy the meal, be completely anxious and be like, I don't know what I'm going to do about this. Or I would be like, well, I can't track it. So I'll just eat all the things. So it it just wasn't a healthy place for me. And whether I was Orthorexic you know, with the obsession with eating healthy. I don't know that I was actually had an eating disorder. But I was definitely had, I definitely had disordered eating. And I think a lot of us can have disordered eating without being a diagnosed eating disorder. And I think that's definitely where I was. So the first time I sat down to eat lunch and not track it, it was like, it still produced a lot of anxiety. But I was like, yeah, yeah, I was like, Okay, but what if I eat too much. And so what I learned was to just really depend on my body more, and to use a hunger scale. And what I figured out was that I can use all of that information I learned about health and fitness and nutrition and protein, and the importance of carbs and all of those things. I can use that without being obsessive about it. I recently actually started making a recipe, it's just a silly little thing. It's just for Turkey, breakfast sausage. But originally, it came from a diet cookbook that I had. And I realized, you know what, I just actually like that sausage, it's okay for me to eat that. And this is to take advice from my past self. Like, actually, you feel great when you eat a lot of protein. That's okay. You don't have to count count and calculate it. If it makes you feel obsessive. But you can also just make sure you're eating protein at every meal. So there's a difference between throwing it all out the window, and just picking and choosing what is what is brain healthy
Philip Pape 07:14
for you, Lisa, there's so much in that story. I really love it. Because a lot, a lot of us coaches do have very similar approaches. And when you think of flexible dieting, it's like hey, just count your calories and macros that that's that's effective, go and do it. But you have to meet people where they're at and what works for them. And you said that you had to figure all this out before you were ready for coaching. I haven't heard somebody put it that way. But I love that because you're saying that to help others, you have to help yourself and understand and have gone through that journey. And you said, Hey, counting calories wasn't for me. But you figured out what was things like how you felt, and having the freedom to do it in a different way, the hunger scale, right? How you could still have disordered eating patterns if you're not careful, even if you don't have an eating disorder. So really good stuff. And I wonder if all of this then leads to how you use the higher brain discussion in all of this context to make these decisions. Is that Is that what you mean by that? Or can you explain the higher brain and then how we can maybe tap into that? Yeah,
Lisa Salisbury 08:18
so part of like, what I was ready for was, I was so dependent on either the book that I had purchased, whatever diet plan, the food list, or most consistently, my technology diet apps, that I just had no trust in myself whatsoever. And that's what learning about coaching about the higher brain really helped me to do was to be like, actually, I have a lot of wisdom here, my body has a lot of wisdom. So using your higher brain to make your food decisions. Well, let me back up the brain, you can kind of divide into two parts. When you're thinking about thinking your higher brain is the one that does all the planning all of the thoughts ahead of time. It's your human brain. It's the part that makes the good decisions, right? The lower brain is the habit brain, it's the part that we want to delegate things down to. We don't want to have to consciously think about brushing our teeth, for example, we have delegated that down to the habit brain, we can do something else while we're brushing our teeth. Like maybe you're scrolling Instagram, while you're brushing your teeth because it's a habit. I noticed this especially with like driving, a lot of times you like you get home and you're like, did I like past the park? Like,
Philip Pape 09:32
how did I get here?
Lisa Salisbury 09:34
Like because it's you know, somewhat delegated to that lower brain. Part of the issue when we delegate eating down there to the lower brain, which, by the way, the brain wants to do this as much as possible because it's very, very efficient. And so when we delegate eating down there, we get into habit eating, mindless eating, and emotional eating. So habit eating is like, Well, I always have a snack when the kids come home from school because that's what we do. Like regardless of if I'm hungry or not, regardless of, you know, whatever is going on, like, we have a snack, like you're not a toddler, so we don't have to. So there's that, right, that's a habit mindless is when you're like passing by your co workers desk, and you grab a handful of candy, because it's there and you're, you know, 17 jelly beans in before you're like, oh, oh, I'm eating again. Right or if we're, if we choose to eat while we're doing other things, if you're eating in the car that's mindless, if you're eating in front of the TV that can be mindless, we're not we're just delegating that habit of getting food into our mouth down to that habit brain. And then this also is where emotional eating comes in. Because the habit brain or that lower brain wants immediate gratification. And it also wants to solve for emotions. When you're tired, sad, bored, stressed, you want to solve for that, and your lower brain goes, Hey, you know what solved for this in the past. And by solved I mean, what gave me a big dopamine hit. You know, what solve for this in the past is some, you know, some caramel corn, that's gonna help us right now, that will give us a big hit of of dopamine. And sure enough, it works. And so then we use that as evidence going forward. So we've got to take our eating up into our higher brain in order to really not only connect it with our body, but also just make those decisions from our future selves from our human selves, not depending on that habit brain, because frankly, she just doesn't do that great of a job.
Philip Pape 11:43
This is this is such a good classification for people. How you how you separate the higher and lower and just to clarify, you're putting the habit eating mindless eating and emotional eating all in the lower brain. Is that right? Usually, yeah. Okay. Yeah, yeah. And that's a good distinction. There's actually a friend of mine, if he's listening, his name is Tony and my barbell club. And he's always getting on me for we tried to work on his macros and, and shift his protein and carbs for his training. And eventually, he's like, I just can't do this. This is not for me. He's like, I listen to my body. And it all works out. I'm like, perfect. And that's, that's what you want. That's for you. Anyway, get it off off track here. But the habit eating the mindless eating and the emotional eating, taking from that to a place of control is, I think, where a lot of people want to be right. They want to be empowered, they want to have control over the situation. So how do we do that?
Lisa Salisbury 12:34
Yeah, yeah, a couple ways that you want to keep your eating in the higher brain realm. Number one, you gotta plan ahead. Because the habit brain is the one that's like chocolate plate. Excuse me, chocolate cake for breakfast sounds great. Your Higher human brain is never going to write down let's have chocolate cake tomorrow morning for breakfast, like it just doesn't, right. So we want to plan ahead, I have my clients do a 24 hour plan. So most often they do this in the morning, they're just going to jot down what I'm going to have for breakfast, lunch and dinner. Not necessarily the amounts, just what I'm going to have eggs and toast for breakfast, I'm going to have leftovers for lunch, leftover pasta from last night for lunch, you know, whatever it is, they just write it down. And when they get to dinner, and they've written down broccoli, and they're like, no broccoli doesn't really sound good. Like maybe I'm just gonna, that's where we go, Oh, I've made this decision from our higher brain and right, we've got to get our commitments in but, but first and foremost, we want to plan because that keeps our habit brain out of the decisions. Yeah. So that's, that's first and then secondly, we want to eat without distractions. And this prevents our that mindless and and habit eating. So we want to say I only eat when I'm sitting down at the table or at your breakfast bar or wherever you like to eat from a plate. And without I'm going to everyone's gonna grow in here without your phone
Philip Pape 14:07
or tablet or TV or anything.
Lisa Salisbury 14:11
Yeah, just you know what if you've given yourself 30 minutes for lunch, like eat for 15 minutes and then scroll Instagram for 15 minutes. We've got to separate it because especially at first when you're really wanting to listen to your body and really deciding have I had enough Is this the right amount of food for me? Do I Do I need to eat more to sustain myself till my next meal? You have to pay attention to the food. And when we're just habit eating either by this is the amount I always eat. When I really got out of this like habit eating I realized you know what is too much is the portion of oatmeal I always fix for myself. I realized every every time I ate it I was like that's a little too much. I started just experimenting with the amount I'm like, Oh, I was only eating that amount because it was my habit to eat that amount. So, you know, just these habit portions and, and just times that we eat. So we just we got to stay in touch with the food that we're eating, even if you can only practice this for one meal a day at first, like just practice we want to sit down, smell the food for just a couple of breaths, take a deep breath, get yourself into rest and digest mode to your food, Put your fork down between bites, all of that stuff, all of the mindful eating. Not only is this going to help you, you know, keep that eating in your higher brain area. But it's also going to increase your satisfaction. Over time that you'll find that you just don't need. Like, I just need a little something more just a little something sweet now, because that's usually coming from I just didn't get enough dopamine from this, I need a little more.
Philip Pape 15:53
It's true. How would you handle? Is there sort of a breaking in period for this where you'd recommend limiting going out to restaurants? Or how do you deal with social situations here where you're distracted by other people?
Lisa Salisbury 16:06
Yeah, I would say that there is a breaking in period only because as far as the way I work with my clients is we just make one tiny change every week. Just one tiny change each session. Because if you try to overhaul your whole eating nutrition life at one time, that's called a diet. And it's not sustainable. Right?
Philip Pape 16:27
Whatever. Yeah.
Lisa Salisbury 16:30
i We practice these things at home. Yes, there's a breaking in period, I had a client who was she was a travel guide, not just an agent, she would plan at home, but then would also guide the the trips over in Europe. So mid mid working with me, she had a six week break where we weren't working together because she was going to be guiding. And it was part of the part of the trip she was guiding was in Italy. And she we literally practiced eating pasta, because she's like, I love the pasta. I like you know, I want to be able to eat and I was like, Absolutely. There was no way I was going to that she was going to go to Italy and not eat pasta. But what she wanted to figure out is how to not eat all the pasta, how to not be too, so much that she
Philip Pape 17:15
felt slurping it up. Yeah, we tend to do.
Lisa Salisbury 17:18
Right. And so, you know, she came back from that six week trips down, I think, I don't know, it's been a few months now. So I can't remember if she was down four or five pounds, something like that, but not what she expected. She had consistently gained on all of her of her guiding trips, which is why she came to me, of course. And so not only did she lose weight, but she ate all the she ate pasta when she wanted. But she was aware and and had practiced and knew that she didn't need to eat everything on her plate, and was able So yes, there was like some practice time at home before she put herself in that situation. But certainly don't like say, Well, I can't go out to dinner because I haven't practiced enough.
Philip Pape 18:04
Use it as an opportunity, perhaps. Sure. Yeah, this is good. I'm glad I had some protein before we recorded this because I'm just thinking of Nucci. It was like the first time I ever had it or gnocchi, I'm sorry. My wife and I honeymoon. That was the first first time I had that back then I did not have these strategies. So it would have helped. So you mentioned portions. And I know there's a phrase you've used, I could guess it what it is, but I want you to help us understand portion distortion, how it affects our ability to make choices about how we eat and again, more strategies. People are getting a lot of great strategies from this conversation.
Lisa Salisbury 18:38
Yeah, maybe not as much in Europe. I noticed when I was there last summer, the portions weren't nearly as big. But here in America, we are really, really fighting with a huge increase in portions. Primarily, we're seeing this in restaurants, which is a concern because we the average American consumes somewhere around 65% of his energy at home. That was actually the last time that that was studied is was in the late 90s. So I think now we're well well over that percentage. So we we've just continue to see a decline decade over decade of the amount of food that we are consuming at home, which means we're consuming far more in restaurants. So what we're seeing in restaurants is this huge increase in portions, then our brain is like this is the amount I should eat because this is the amount they've served to me. And then we go on to duplicate that at home. Just for an example in the 80s our bagels were about three inches across. And now today they're about six inches across. So that's right, like yeah,
Philip Pape 19:51
my daughter has made homemade bagels with with and they were like half the size. I'm like, oh,
Lisa Salisbury 19:57
what's wrong with this bagel? Oh, it's from the 80s Yes. But yeah, it's so not only are we seeing this increase in portion that were served in restaurants. And also, let me say that if you were to look up the nutritional information for that restaurant, it's going to tell you that that large fry that you ordered is actually like three servings, right? But it the serving sizes hasn't really changed as much as what we are served, which is our portion. So it gets tricky too. Because even if you look at, like cookbooks, like the Joy of Cooking, for example, which is like a classic cookbook that they've revised over the years, the they even specify fewer servings, so like the same, the exact same recipe for brownies served 16 in the 80s. And the new version, it serves nine, it's the same recipe. So
Philip Pape 20:50
double double the size. I got it. Yeah, or per serving. Yep.
Lisa Salisbury 20:53
So ultimately, when there's more food in front of us, we're just more prone to eating past fullness. It just, that's just the way it is. And I think if you don't mind I'll go into it's because of we have this, this aversion to number one wasting food. And number two, we have an aversion to not being in the clean plate club. Right, most of us from our childhood.
Philip Pape 21:18
So true, I was just thinking about that this morning, Lisa, just coincidentally how you know, our parents were would would want us to clean our plates. And on top of that, we would tie that to getting dessert. And also it was tied to not wasting food and not just food but not wasting it because it costs money. You know, we don't want this money to go to waste. And it just compiles and compiles especially when the portions get bigger and bigger. So that's so relatable to people. Yeah,
Lisa Salisbury 21:42
yeah, it's all tied together. And it's, it's interesting, because we use this phrase, collectively, the clean plate club are cleaning our plate. And turns out the clean plate club was a government program in World War One, and then again in World War Two. So our parents and our grandparents, literally might have been members of the clean plate club in their elementary school, because it was instituted during the time where there were rations. And if your parents ever said to you like, well, they're starving children in Africa, because that's where there were issues. You know, in the 80s, when I was a child, it's because they're probably their parents were like, hey, they're starving children in Europe that we need to really conserve, so we can send a food over there. That really did happen at that time that you were serving. Yeah, I wasn't aware of that. That's yeah, it's crazy, actually, like you can find like the government posters and things that they were putting up for the kids. So it's no wonder our parents told us to clean our plates. And the idea back then was take what you need, because of course in school cafeterias back then it was all homemade food, and you know, not Lunchables, and uncrustables, and whatnot.
22:54
The most value that I got from this was the fact that I had someone that I could talk to about anything, and that there was going to be no judgment, it was just Well, here are your goals, here's the best way that you're going to achieve it. And then let's work together to help you feel inspired and motivated to do that. And a lot of people out there trying to be coaches, and not all of them have done the work. And also just be a genuine person that is positive. And coming from the heart in terms of wanting to help and Philip really embody all of those qualities, I would recommend him to just about anyone that's looking to achieve goals in that realm of their nutrition and building new habits.
Lisa Salisbury 23:39
Take what you need for your body. And by finishing, you've told us that you took the amount that was right for your body, right over eating wasn't glorified as much back then. So first of all, just the clean plate club is not a cool club, you don't get your photo in the yearbook. Like I renounce your membership now, like throw away your membership card, we don't need to be in that we're not in that situation. Now. We can obviously do what we can for people that don't have enough food and you know, use our money wisely, their donate to charity, all of those things, but you not cleaning your plate actually doesn't affect them. Like it maybe did some more time. Right? Yeah. So we want to practice like leaving a little food behind to let our brains know nothing bad happened. Nothing bad happened when I left two bites of food behind that lunch. And so being able to throw away just a little bit, just a little bit of food. Number one, you're going to decide you're going to help to determine if you actually need to eat as much as you do, which two bytes is probably not going to make or break you. But it'll get you used to the idea that food can be left behind and then when you're at a restaurant and you're like no really they brought me to him. Watch your like, it's okay to leave it behind because your brain is like, if nothing bad happens.
Philip Pape 25:05
It's funny, at least you say that because my wife would say, I'm gonna take those two bites, and we're going to take them home as leftovers, like, even if it's just two bites, you know, which is not letting food go to waste, but you're also not eating it in the moment.
Lisa Salisbury 25:18
Yeah, the thing about, you know, wasting money, and especially when we're talking about restaurants, we attribute the amount of money that we're paying for the food as if that's the same as the value or it being worth it. But when you go to a restaurant, you're not actually paying for volume of food. Unless, you know, it's like the supersize menu or whatever like, but that's not really what we're talking about. You're really paying for the taste, the experience, not having to do the dishes, the time that you're spending with your spouse, or loved one, or friends or whoever you're out with, and getting enough food that your body is no longer hungry. But you're not really paying for the volume. That's not really where the value of going out is, if we were like, I have to get all the value out of my food we would only ever cook from scratch and
Philip Pape 26:10
cook our own food. Yeah, totally, totally true. I hear what you're saying. And going back to your earlier comment about listening to your body and becoming mindful. I wouldn't be surprised if you find that many of the much of the food you get at restaurants does not make you feel the best compared to cooking your own food. And you start to be like, Hmm, well, I'm not even getting my money's worth for the food itself. And I do this for the other reasons. Yeah, it's really good that people are aware of that. And to
Lisa Salisbury 26:35
like, especially when you're like out on, you know, for fun at a nicer restaurant, more of that food is actually past your fullness past your comfortable fullness, more food is actually going to start decreasing your enjoyment of the experience. Fair enough. Because more of the food. Yeah. And you're just going to end up thinking, Now I feel gross. Now. I feel bloated. I don't like that restaurant because I feel I feel yucky when I go there because only because you ate too much. I found myself at Olive Garden recently, which was actually we've lived in the town that we live in now for almost 11 years. My husband, I have never been to the Olive Garden. But we were going out with friends. The place we were gonna go to was was booked and they're like, hey, the friends were like, let's just go to Olive Garden. And my husband and I are like, Okay, I mean, I guess like,
Philip Pape 27:28
like who goes to abortions? Yeah.
Lisa Salisbury 27:30
We told him to go to Olive Garden. Like, like 55 and above. Anyways, we go to Olive Garden. And I was like, you know, I can enjoy Olive Garden. Like, it's a salad and I make pasta at home. I just as soon as my portion came, I just cut it in half. I just made a delineation. And I was like, I mean, I say that's going to be about enough. I ate what I what I had, you know, kind of designated as we were talking and enjoying the company. And I really thought I was like, I could totally keep eating here. Sure. I could totally but I was like, I'm just gonna see what happens if I don't. I'm just gonna see if and turns out. I didn't feel gross after eating at the Olive Garden. I was like, oh, yeah, you can just you can eat food and not feel gross if you don't over eat it. And my enjoyment of that experience was way more than I've had I had eaten the whole portion. And then I would have been like all of our and basically feel gross.
Philip Pape 28:25
Yeah, yeah, I mean, there's so many these are great strategies for people. And you mentioned the other one about the the more you pay for the food the general you're not paying for the food. We're I'm thinking of here is my wife and I went on a date night to a very nice restaurant and all the portions were pretty small, beautifully prepared, beautifully plated, and there was a lot of variety. And actually reminded me of years ago when I went to Japan and everything was like dim sum it was which is not a Japanese term, but it was like you know, 18 different things on the table but tiny bits of it and felt like it was just a wonderful culinary experience. So just people listening there's a lot of ways to kind of skin the skin the cat here and still meet your goals is what Lisa is trying to say. Yeah, yeah.
Lisa Salisbury 29:08
Here's here's kind of a side note to being you know, date night. Another thing especially I have this one particular client that this was always her thing she's like, we go out for dinner and we're like out on date night and then like I eat too much. And I don't want to you know, keep doing date night at home. You want to think about how you want to feel in an hour in two hours and three hours not always your your long term goals. Although very important, don't always create the behavior you want in the moment. So you want to have some like shorter term like how do I want to feel in two hours? Do I want to feel like getting naked? I should probably stop it just enough then instead of over eating this meal. Because I'm not going to feel like that. What I'm saying
Philip Pape 29:54
that's a good one. That is a really good way like how am I going to with this date night has a certain you know, story behind it and That's gonna conclude a certain way. Do I want to feel like, you know, I'm pushing the limit there of my, my belt? Yeah. Yeah.
Lisa Salisbury 30:08
Great, have a short term goal, you know?
Philip Pape 30:11
For sure. No, yeah, short term goal. Yeah, you're right, because we can't think long term humans are pretty bad at grounding ourselves in the moment when the goal is so far out. And that's why we do baby steps and habit forming. You know, I want to keep looking at some of your philosophy here, because one of your, one of your tenants is about diets at end dates like that diets within dates are one of the worst things you could do, mentally. And actually, this segues a little bit nicely, since we were talking about deep further down in the future with a goal. And we're talking about sustainable eating and said, So tell us about your thoughts on that. How do we transition from the dieting mentality?
Lisa Salisbury 30:49
Yeah, when when you have these diets that have end dates, like six weeks slimmed down, you know, the famous one that has a 30 day end date, it really just tells your brain on day 31, we can have a cupcake, you're not building what I like to consider as a lifestyle. Nobody should be dieting for their whole life. Nobody. Dieting is not a hobby. Like, we don't want to just pick it up every other month. Right? Like, take up knitting, if you need a hobby. But when we have these diets that have end dates, it just tells our brain that what we're doing right now is very limited, and it creates a ton of scarcity. So I mean, so much language has scarcity, we are like I better I better not eat this food, because, you know, we might not, we might never get it again. So I better eat all of it at one time. It then it when you're on those kinds of diets with end dates, you have things like cheat days. So we end up referring to food as good or bad. We add these morality, like everything really, that puts us in that diet mentality is can be really damaging to creating a lifestyle that you really want to live, if you're looking at your future self five years, 10 years, you know, however many years down the road, and you can't picture yourself eating this way. That's a diet. I can picture myself prioritizing protein, eating lots of fruits and vegetables, choosing whole grains, I can picture myself doing that for the rest of my life. I don't want you to diet for the rest of your life. I want you to care about your health for the rest of your life. It's it's a huge difference between caring about your health and caring about what goes in your body. And eating as little as possible. Yeah, I know especially sorry, one more thing I know is for your clients and mine. Sometimes we are in a fat fat loss phase. I get that ask about that. This is okay. Yeah. Okay. So I get that sometimes we need to be in a fat loss phase. But I'm eating protein. I'm prioritizing protein and eating lots of produce in a fat loss phase as well.
Philip Pape 33:02
Yes. Yes, exactly. You're eating the same, you're just scaling it and you may maybe some slightly different decisions for hunger and things like that. Yes.
Lisa Salisbury 33:11
Right. So it's an end to we want to decide if, if our future self if that lifestyle we want to lead eats a cookie now. And again, we need to learn how to eat a cookie now and again, in the fat loss phase. Because part of the problem is we overeat the cookies because we've put them on restriction. And so if you're like, I want to be able to eat one cookie, I want to walk through the room where there's a plate of brownies, and either just casually say no, or say Oh, I do have a brownie plan for today. I'm gonna have one. We want to be able to do that. And so incorporating those things into our even into our fat loss phase can be very healthy because then your brain is like, Oh, we get to eat this. Like whenever we plan it like that seems weird for us, but also very cool.
Philip Pape 34:06
Oh, so many stories about that a fellow coach of mine, she did a in her last fat loss phase. She promised to eat a doughnut every day just to show our clients you could do it and she likes donuts. So of course she of course she made it work. And she talked about some of the consequences of when you do that is there's there's choices you have to make. So obviously you're gonna have four donuts a day, it's gonna affect everything else you're eating and make you feel a certain way. But yeah, I was gonna ask you about that exact thing about playing devil's advocate and Alan Aragon you know, the founder of flexible dieting, so to speak, is a phrase in one of his books called straining the conscience. It's what happens when we make food, a moral decision. And it's when we have good and bad and we have this rigidity and restriction you talked about versus any food is really possible as part of our diet. It's just we have to align it to our goal. So what do you have any more thoughts about that morality thing which effectively goes away like You said when you can just allow yourself to eat anything at any time. Just just with these, this mindfulness associated Yeah.
Lisa Salisbury 35:06
I think the biggest problem with assigning morality to food is that then we then it inadvertently becomes the label on ourselves. How many times have you heard someone say, Well, I was really good today. I had a solid.
Philip Pape 35:18
I know, I was good. I was bad. Yeah, I was bad. I was on me at this point. Yeah.
Lisa Salisbury 35:24
Right. Like, I know, you hear it, and you're just like, oh, it's like nails on a chalkboard down for me. But oh, boy, did I use that language all the time. And so that's really the biggest problem with assigning these values to food. And then, and then we use words like cheat day, you know, someone, you're, you know, you're eating something and someone's like, Oh, is it cheat day? Like, no, no, Karen, it's just.
Philip Pape 35:53
Yeah. Or like, clean, right? Clean. Even that has some judgment to it. Yeah, whole natural, maybe not as much. But you get labels like healthy is a label, like all these labels have some judgment to them? For sure.
Lisa Salisbury 36:06
And the thing is, you can just decide like, you know what, I feel better, my body feels better. When I generally am choosing single ingredient foods would some diet guru call what I eat what you know, call this meal clean, maybe. But I don't need to label it that way. This is just food that works well in my body. These these foods work well. For me, I made a cake over the weekend that my son was here, he brought his girlfriend home. And so you know, I made a dessert for the dinner. And I had like a, like a little sliver of it yesterday. Like I'm like, I'm just gonna have a few more bites of this cake. And right afterwards, I was like, I do not feel very good. And I'm like, Yeah, that's so fascinating that my my brain is still like, oh, have a treat, have a snack. But really, I just feel better on single ingredient foods, I just feel better on foods that have less sugar. That's not diety for me. That's just like, hey, I just want to be able to work and not feel gross. I want to be able to sleep and, and not be woken up by these digestive symptoms, like, it's just all about thinking about how you want to have your body feel. If that looks like what somebody calls a clean diet, that's fine. But you don't have to call it that, for sure. And if any of you eat things that aren't clean, quote, unquote, that's also fine. I will function mostly on a like an 8020. Sometimes no fat loss phase, maybe 9010 rule as far as like 80% of the time you're eating those single ingredient, whole foods, things that are going to really feel your body 2010 20% of the time, you're going to choose some pleasure foods.
Philip Pape 37:45
Yeah, yeah, I agree. And I mean, and sometimes people have specific needs, like for fiber, or saturated fat, or they're watching bloodwork and things like that. And again, you kind of look, you break it down to your goals and what you're trying to accomplish, not so much this or that food, and you still have this diverse set of foods to choose from. Oh, you know, what I wanted to ask you about this is, we talked about fat loss all the time. I don't know if you're working with anybody who's building muscle who's having to eat in a surplus, is that in your client base of primarily weightlifting?
Lisa Salisbury 38:14
Yeah, generally not generally, I'm working with women who, typically women that come to me are emotional eaters. They're just like, I just eat when I'm not hungry. Like I know this. I overeat at meals. So they're, they're generally not in A. But yeah, I am aware,
Philip Pape 38:32
I asked because there's issues on that side as well. When it comes to now you have to eat way more calories. Again, there, there are challenges with, you want to incorporate more processed foods to do it sometimes because you get too full. And it kind of presents the mirror side of the equation. But we'll focus on on your area of expertise here with the fat loss side of things. You mentioned something called Power foods. I don't know if it was today or in my notes, but you mentioned that things that work for your body and lifestyle. Is that what we've been talking about, or is that a separate? Yeah,
Lisa Salisbury 39:03
yeah, like those those foods that are like these helped me feel powerful. These helped me concentrate these foods helped me, you know, function at my best. I mean, yes, it's a label as far as like, good or bad. I just don't ever say I feel really powerful today because I had a salad. So when you just change your language around it, like power foods, 80% of the time pleasure foods 20% of the time, that that just it changes it enough that you're not going to translate those labels to yourself. Right. And so, it's just a way to give language to some of the foods that you're choosing. Another thing I do sometimes with clients is like a good better best. So like those processed foods or you know, protein bars that maybe have some questionable ingredients. Those are good foods, they have some good protein but maybe not like helping us feel our most amazing self better. And then best foods and So you can kind of look at it in that way, too. As far as like, I know, it just said don't use good and bad. But what I mean by that,
Philip Pape 40:07
I mean, as your minimum is good, yeah. So it's on the positive side of the spectrum. Right? Reframing, I mean, that's what you're doing is reframing, which is great. It's like the the taking, you know, a kind of mindset. Oh, I had a bad workout. I'm like, Okay, let's reframe that. Was it a bad workout? What did you learn from the work? And maybe it was not as productive as you want it? So what are we gonna do next? I mean, it can play in life.
Lisa Salisbury 40:28
And like, Were you tired? What can you learn? Like, did you come to that workout? Already? Fatigue? Did you sleep? Well? Did you have enough?
Philip Pape 40:33
Opportunity? Yeah, totally an opportunity. Alright, so is there? Is there a memorable story of a client maybe who went through this transformation of their relationship with I'm sure you have a lot of them. So I'm wondering, like one? And then and then how it kind of cascaded into other areas of their life? Yeah.
Lisa Salisbury 40:52
I don't know that this is like a full story. But I think one of my favorite things one of my clients has ever said to me, is she was like, you know, I'm becoming an emotionally stronger person, which is almost more important to me than then becoming a thinner person. And she was already well, on her way, I think she was, you know, 20 pounds down at that point. And she was like, I mean, that's cool. That's great. But she was shocked at how learning to trust her body trust herself, make decisions from her higher brain was helping her in so many other ways. One of the things I teach is how to process cravings. And it's really the way that we feel our feelings, which I know is kind of a mindset, buzzword kind of thing. But it's not. It's not for the faint of heart, just deciding to feel stress instead of eating through it. So learning to do that, and learning to eat the doughnut when she wanted to. She actually doughnuts were one of her things. And she went to a wedding. She was like the maid of honor. And the bride wanted donuts for breakfast. And so she's like, I knew I was gonna have a doughnut. And I was like, it wasn't even that good. I was so shocked. Because she just had mindlessly eating doughnuts for so long. But yeah, just for her to say like, I'm just becoming emotionally stronger. And really, that's what you get out of learning to trust yourself. Again, learning to trust your body, and just going all in on your goals and commitment to yourself.
Philip Pape 42:25
And it sounds like it's, it sounds like it's not really about food is at least it sounds like it's about sitting with these things. I mean, even just made me reflect a little bit on how we are distracted, not just when we eat, we're distracted all day, or busy all day just hustling and working. And especially when we have businesses and how often you just take the time to yourself for any of this reflection of how you feel in the moment. It's a good it's a good lesson. Yeah, so Okay, so I like to ask this second last question of all my guests. And that is, is there a question you wish I had asked? And if so, what's your answer?
Lisa Salisbury 43:01
I saw this there, and I forgot you're gonna ask it.
Philip Pape 43:05
I even give you a little bit of a heads up with the notes, don't I? Not everybody sees it though. This usually leads to a pregnant pause for most guests. So that's why I love it.
Lisa Salisbury 43:15
Right? Yeah. Yeah. Love it, too. So I guess I would say I wish we had. Usually I talked about good bad foods when people say what's like your, your biggest thing. Okay, hold on, you're gonna have to edit this out.
Philip Pape 43:32
Maybe, maybe not. Let's see, this is this is raw. This is real. This is podcasting. You know. I mean, maybe there's something in what you do that we just didn't cover. And it's okay to say, hey, this was the perfect interview, the best interview I've ever been to and you asked every question I could possibly be asked. It's okay to say that to solely trying to. Okay.
Lisa Salisbury 43:59
I think it would I think I would have wished you asked me about exercise and how I incorporate that with my clients. Oh, sure. Training, go for it. Yeah. Because I'm not a personal trainer myself. And so people are always like, well, like, what should I do? What should I do for exercise? And I always tell them, what do you like to do? Let's do that. Like the exercise that you're going to stick with is the one we need to do. And what I've been learning about even more so lately is the importance of your NEET your non exercise Activity Thermogenesis, which is just your movement throughout the day. And so so many people link this diet and exercise together. I got to lose weight. So it's diet and exercise, diet and exercise, diet and exercise. And I really love to disengage those two things. So I actually I kind of looked at becoming a personal trainer like as an add on to what I do, and I'm like, You know what, I'm going to consciously not do that. I'm going to let those folks do what they're good at and if my clients need a personal trainer, like refer them out. But I'm going to consciously stay in the eating space. Because when we link exercise and diet together, we end up deciding that we have to be either punished for what we ate. And how many times have you heard a trainer be like, let's work off that meal, right? Or we're going to torch those calories. Like that's not actually where a lot of your energy expenditure comes from your your exercise for the day accounts for some something around the realm of 5% of your energy expenditure for the day. So we want to exercise for all the other benefits, the mental benefits, the mental health benefits, the the cardiovascular improvement, the balance, all of those things that have nothing to do with the scale. And so I actually love to separate it out. And then just encourage my clients to do what they are going to continue doing. If they don't have any ideas, I always suggest weight training, resistance training. Absolutely. I know that you're a big fan of Yeah, so I do want to make sure that if at all possible they're doing that or if they're open to it, but we just start we just start with if you're like, I just am not sure if I'm ready for resistance training, like start with what you will keep doing. And and if you're still at a loss, start with walking. So that was kind of a roundabout, but just separate it out, you know,
Philip Pape 46:27
just Yeah, no, I couldn't I couldn't agree more. And if we think about the common theme here, it's it's do what you like that fits within your lifestyle. And I think the mindless eating that you that we originally talked about isn't the thing you'd like to do. It's just the thing you're conditioned or you've developed. And the thing you like to do is the thing you choose and plan for which is the same when it comes to exercise. So it sounds like there's a common theme of taking control of your life and making those decisions with the higher brain. Yeah, and the neat. I mean, my listeners have turning talk about that too much. Although it's been a while. But yeah, you're right. Like, if I have a client a fat loss phase, and it's getting a little bit dicey with their their body's response to somewhat modest intake. It's like, maybe we just need to walk more, you know, let's get a little more movement going throughout the day. Yeah. Yeah, that's great. So that was that was the perfect last question to tie in. Lisa, I appreciate that. Where can the listeners find out about you and your work?
Lisa Salisbury 47:22
Yeah, so my website is well with lisa.com. And you can find me on Instagram at well underscore with underscore, Lisa. I do also have a podcast and you're going to be a guest pretty soon here as well. So that's eat well think while live well, you can search for that on any podcast app. And I'm not sure if we're going to put this in the show notes. But I also have a free ebook called go to meals, which just helps you construct some of those meals that work really well for you and eliminate some of those decisions day to day where we are wanting to plan our meals. But we don't want to come up with something new every single day. We have some go to meals that are always on plan.
Philip Pape 48:01
Perfect. Yeah, I'll put the go to meals guide in the show notes along with your IG, your website. And of course everybody here is a podcast listener who's listening to this. So that is a very easy thing for them to go and find you and follow right now because they are listening. So go find eat well think well live. Well Lisa, it's been a real honor and pleasure. I enjoyed this conversation and thank you for coming on the show.
Lisa Salisbury 48:21
Thank you for having me.
Philip Pape 48:25
If you've been inspired by today's interview, and are ready to take action and build momentum on your health and fitness journey, just schedule a free 30 minute nutrition momentum call with me using the link in my show notes. I promised not to sell or pitch you on anything but I will help you gain some perspective and guidance so we can get you on the right track toward looking and feeling your best