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Philip Pape 5/23/23 Philip Pape 5/23/23

Ep 72: Balancing Strength, Physique, Recovery plus Animal vs. Plant Protein with Eric Helms

I am beyond ecstatic to welcome the Dr. Eric Helms to the show today. Eric’s work has been a huge influence on me in my personal journey, coaching education, and philosophy, and today we're going to discuss evidence-based research, coaching, and communication, what Eric's been up to in the world of powerlifting and bodybuilding. We dive into topics including self-determination theory, training strategies, plant vs. animal protein, and adaptation during weight loss, among others.

Eric is an exceptional coach, athlete, author, and educator focused on natural bodybuilding and strength training. As the Director and Chief Science Officer of 3D Muscle Journey (3DMJ), he heads a team that offers evidence-based information, community support, and holistic coaching for drug-free competitors. With a PhD in Strength and Conditioning from Auckland University of Technology (AUT), Eric has published peer-reviewed articles and co-authored The Muscle and Strength Pyramids, one of the best training and nutrition guides out there.

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Book a FREE 30-minute call with Philip here.
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Today you’ll learn all about:

[2:44] Eric's story
[5:58] Balancing stregth and hypertrophy
[11:00] Minimum effective dose vs maxing out, 80/20 rule, and nutrition for new lifters
[13:50] How much and how hard to train, training to failure, and progressive overload
[19:24] Mindset, agency, and self-determination
[26:03] Dealing with a client that just wants to be told what to do
[29:10] Lisa credits Philip's coaching for her 17-lb weight loss and gives him a grateful shout-out
[29:55] Learning to lift without a coach
[37:13] Eric's personal routine and his motivation
[40:06] Eric's advice to his younger self, and the key principles for beginner lifters to prioritize strength and size programming.
[49:29] Plant protein vs animal protein
[57:15] Learn more about Eric
[58:32] Outro

Episode resources:

Eric's podcast: Iron Culture
Website: 3dmusclejourney.com
Training and nutrition guide: The Muscle and Strength Pyramids
Latest research: Monthly Applications in Sports Science (MASS)
IG: @helms3dmj

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Transcript

Dr. Eric Helms 00:00

Someone might have the capability and the opportunity to do something. But if they're not actually interested and they don't their autonomous desire is not to do something or any other element of it is not actually leading to them having the motivation which doesn't mean like the group X instructor yelling at you, but like the motive to do something. I don't have a why I don't want to do this. It doesn't matter. You know what resources or ability you have to do something you just want to do it.

Philip Pape 00:27

Welcome to the Wits & Weights podcast. I'm your host, Philip pape, and this twice a week podcast is dedicated to helping you achieve physical self mastery by getting stronger, optimizing your nutrition and upgrading your body composition. We'll uncover science backed strategies for movement, metabolism, muscle and mindset with a skeptical eye on the fitness industry so you can look and feel your absolute best. Let's dive right in Wits & Weights community Welcome to another episode of the Wits & Weights podcast. I am beyond ecstatic to welcome the Dr. Eric helms to the show today. Eric's work has been a huge influence on me in my personal journey, and in my coaching, education and philosophy. And today we're going to discuss evidence based research coaching, communication, what Eric's been up to in the world of powerlifting, and bodybuilding. And we may dive into topics like self determination theory, training strategies, plant versus animal protein, and adaptation during weight loss among others. Eric is an accomplished coach, athlete, author, educator specializing in Natural Bodybuilding and strength training. As a director and chief science officer of 3d muscle journey. Eric leads a team that provides evidence based information, community support, and holistic coaching to drug free strength and physique competitors. With an impressive educational background, including a PhD in strength and conditioning from Auckland University of Technology. He's published numerous peer reviewed articles, and co authored the muscle and strength pyramids, which in my opinion, are among the best training and nutrition guides out there. In fact, that's how I first learned about him about four years ago. But before discovering his other content, including a couple podcasts 3d muscle journey, and iron culture, and his work with mass monthly applications in strength sport, a monthly review of strength and physique training research. In addition to all of that Eric has an impressive athletic career, having competed in Natural Bodybuilding unequip powerlifting, and Olympic lifting since the mid 2000s. Eric's definitely been through the trenches. And he's prepping for both a powerlifting meet and bodybuilding show this year. Eric, it is an absolute pleasure to welcome you to the show.

Dr. Eric Helms 02:32

It's a pleasure to be on. And thank you for the very generous introduction. I appreciate it.

Philip Pape 02:36

Absolutely well deserved. I was very excited for this Sower, my listeners, I'm going to sneak in some questions from them along the way. But for the for the two or three people listening to this show who don't know who you are. Lay it on us. You know, we've given them the official introduction. So just tell us about what you've been up to lately and in the research and lifting communities.

Dr. Eric Helms 02:56

Yeah, like I said, I appreciate the introduction. So if anyone's not familiar with me, I guess a little more of a from the heart introduction of who is Eric helms is someone with an obsessive streak who got hit by the iron bug. Gees close to 20 years ago. Now, I'm turning 40 This year, and I thought it'd be really cool to get back on stage. This will be my fifth season. And I have always been just in love with the pursuit of strength as I have the pursuit of the artistry of bodybuilding, which I really do see as an art and a sport. I'm a competitive person, I like to compete. I want to see how far I can push myself. But I also really appreciate it as an art form. So yeah, it's fun for me, I express myself through the pursuit of strength as well as bodybuilding. And I am currently geez, what does it mean now, so I have a tentative powerlifting meet, which is about as hard as I'm gonna commit. In early July. I live here in New Zealand. You mentioned I got my PhD at the Auckland University of Technology. That's the biggest city in New Zealand in the North Island. I moved out here 10 years ago with my wife had been here since after I did my PhD. I just liked it so much that couldn't get rid of me. So now I'm a research fellow here and I have the privilege of mentoring masters and PhD students just like I used to be and especially if they're down to to do some muscle nerd research that I'm there guy. So yeah, powerlifting meet coming up potentially. The reason why I say it's potential is because I'm going to be dieting down. Oh, I'm dieting down. So I'll be an 83 kilo lifter. I'm six foot for referencing

Philip Pape 04:33

versus versus maybe 993. Yeah, okay.

Dr. Eric Helms 04:37

Exactly. If you look at my my competition history, I've only done like two other meats way, way back in the day at 83. And it was also during a bodybuilding contest prep where I'm gonna get that light anyway. And yeah, so I'm also an M one so a Masters one lifter, so I'm 40 I'm 83 kilos I'm trying to like basically cheat to be slightly better than

Philip Pape 04:59

me Yeah, 20 years, all these years of working hard and getting to his point, it's cheating. Yeah.

Dr. Eric Helms 05:05

100% That's the way that works, you know? Yeah. Cool.

Philip Pape 05:09

Yeah. So welcome to the over 40. Club. You said you're turning 40. But I think it's already happened, hasn't it?

Dr. Eric Helms 05:14

It has. Yes. So, yeah, yeah.

Philip Pape 05:17

And then this, and then doing well. Okay. So back to something you mentioned, which I really liked is the artistry of bodybuilding. And then the muscle nerd research. Maybe that's why I resonate with you. And a lot of other listeners do, too, that just want to know as much as they can about this stuff. And I know you cover this on the iron culture podcast, which I love. It's, I'll say it's not for everybody. And I say that in a good way, because it's very unique. In the pantheon of fitness podcast, it's almost its own little beast out there. But you seem to be balancing it all. And one of the things you just said is you're balancing two things this year, you're balancing powerlifting and bodybuilding. I know you said you're not 100% committed, we'll see what happens, I guess in a few months, right when you get there. But how do you manage them both? I know you've done like whole podcasts on this, but just at a high level, people listening want to excel in both sports, and yet the muscle strength pyramids distinctly talk about strength and hypertrophy and different programming. So how do you balance those?

Dr. Eric Helms 06:15

Yeah, it is. I think probably the best way to put it is a you need to understand what the minimum effective dose is for you to improve it both. And that's a really interesting concept that we often don't explore in sports science, because sports science is often all about getting the maximum out of yourself, because it's competitive sport, right? Health Science, however, I would argue should definitely always be focused on the minimum effective dose, like committing to a lifestyle of exercise and nutrition is very challenging. So what's, what's the amount that we need to move the needle in terms of health and so anyway, that rather unexplored perspective, in sports science has been explored more and more, my good colleague, affectionately called Dr. Pack, but his full name is Dr. Patrick close entrelac, his core cactus, you, of course, have a Greek descent and a proud Greek man and on awesome researcher. He's in Solon University, with Dr. James Steele, who is just, in my opinion, a legend a meta science and pushing sports science forward. And anyway, they've collaborated over the years. And he did his entire PhD looking at what's the least amount of power lifters need to do to get meaningfully stronger. And it's a lot less than the average power lifter probably thinks, which speaks to the kind of the diminishing returns of doing a ton of volume. It's not that it's not worth it. But you know, if we were to look at some of the meta analyses on, say, what does it take to get the highest effect size of improving your one arm strength, there's data that indicate doing one to four sets is at 85%, as good as doing, say, five to 12 sets per week, on average, for someone, you're not an average, you're, you know, an individual. So your mileage may vary. But just to kind of give you the idea that there might be someone out there who does just as well on three sets of squats per week, if it's pretty specific training compared to 10. So you've tripled your volume, and then some, and you're not getting much more out of it. So that kind of perspective helps you program for these things. Because the biggest issue with training for strength and hypertrophy is not their conflicting goals. It's the opportunity cost. It's not like getting stronger to squat, make your quads smaller, which some people talk that way, like like it does. But if anything, if you take any high level power lifter, and you were to diet them down, they'd probably look the part of a bodybuilder just because squats, bench deadlift, and the accessories cover a lot of ground. However, it is very challenging to really get the most out of yourself and balance the two. And if you can, no, what did it take for me to move the needle on one? And that's kind of like my minimum baseline. And you distribute that in an effective way across your your your training split? And you see kind of what juice do you have left? You know, what's left in the tank for me to distribute? And then what choices do I make what is already taken care of with my strength training? And then how do I distribute what was needed for my individual physique. So I'm a little lucky in a way in that my lower body seems to respond quite readily to training. And my upper body seems to require the more volume and also that I'm a lot more resilient to benching a lot in terms of injury aches and pains and strengthen recovery than squat and deadlift. I'm not unique in that way, but I probably am a little unique in that I don't require a ton of leg training. So I can do a fair amount of squats and bench and deadlift and then really I just need to get some calf training in and maybe a couple sets of leg extensions, leg curls, right.

Philip Pape 09:56

So wait, hold on real quick on the bench thing. So you said you're both resilient to that amount of volume and you need it, which is that is a nice combination, which I know people shoulder issues that's very other than low back, that seems to be the most common thing. So if you needed the volume and you couldn't, then that that could be a little bit more of a challenge. Yeah,

Dr. Eric Helms 10:13

absolutely, this is not necessarily an option for everybody, you know. So you sometimes if you're very creative, you might have to do you know, partial training, you might have to figure out what movements that are not actually the competition lifts transfer the most that you can do. And I've been in that position in the past with prior injury, and it's not fun. And I can deal with it when I need to, but at the moment, I'm healthy, and it's just more of a matter of balancing, you know, fatigue, and, and soreness. And, and like, you know, like elbow tendinitis, but nothing real major that can really take, you know, take me and put me on the sidelines.

Philip Pape 10:51

Yeah, so, okay, there's a number of concepts here. They're all they're all great concepts. And I want to, I want to come out with strategies or actions that people can take from this. So you talked about minimum minimum effective dose, versus, you know, maxing out all the time, you also gave some examples, like the minimum amount of sets that you need to get most of the results kind of the 8020 rule, or 85%, which is a common theme in this in this world, it seems which proportion which comports with reality, you talk about protein, in the same way, you know, do we really need to get x grams for for a kilogram when this this can do it? Because you're gonna sacrifice other things? Is this is this a concept that a new lifter should be very concerned about? Or is this more for an advanced trainee?

Dr. Eric Helms 11:33

It depends on the context, really, I think, new lifters, the most important thing is developing a good consistent set of habits and supporting adherence, which is ultimately the most important thing. And unfortunately, you don't have to look very far to find people who are extremely motivated, and then kind of get burned out and stop lifting only a few years later, and they were all about that life, you know, and sometimes it's because I always like to use the analogy of the person who came out a little too strong in a relationship. You know, like you love lifting, that's great. But you got to wait a day to call them you know, give them some space, they need to adapt their life. You don't tell them you love them on the first date, that kind of thing. So,

Philip Pape 12:21

yeah, go watch Swingers, if you're not familiar with this concept, right?

Dr. Eric Helms 12:25

Absolutely. Which I hope your audience is in the same age bracket as we are, or they're not gonna know, even though they know that people are because they're famous now, but they will

Philip Pape 12:34

select my audience with these things. Okay. gaming culture to

Dr. Eric Helms 12:41

not mad about that, dude. So as a Street Fighter two player, I mean, 93. But anyway, the Yeah. So I think one perspective is that a novice only needs so much to progress. So most people who really get bit by the iron bug are doing two to three times the amount of training they can benefit from. There's nothing inherently wrong with that. But it probably wouldn't make more sense to focus on you know, a good three sessions on the fundamentals. And, you know, give yourself a little more time to recover. And, you know, distance makes the heart grow fonder kind of thing, and just set up a consistent set of habits, rather than just jumping in full bore immediately. And then as you need it titrating up the volume, or the total stress of your training to continue to progress. So that's kind of my perspective on how beginners should take it.

Philip Pape 13:36

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense that you're either doing too much, you know, when you get really into, you're doing too much, maybe too many days too many sets, trying to do too much, you know, hypertrophy, your direct work, when maybe you just need the big lifts. How do you reconcile that with? In fact, just today, I think there's, I think, stronger by science and data. I don't know if it's associated with mass, but the study about how people may not be training hard enough, right, like in terms of either going to failure or just volume. So how do you reconcile those two concepts? Because there are people that think they're, they're doing something that's effective? And they're not training hard enough?

Dr. Eric Helms 14:11

Yeah. Yeah. So there's a there's an interesting interplay with effort, if you will, and in volume, that's pretty important. Like, all of the research we have on specifically hypertrophy, and the amount of sets that are probably appropriate at a broad population level, their meta analyzed, which just means their studies of studies. So someone has taken all the various studies on saying, hey, how much muscle can you grow by doing X number of sets versus x number sets? And oh, can we get 20 of those studies? Let's put them all together and see if we can get a better estimate with a more robust sample size. And, you know, that's been done a number of times. There's the classic one that's probably most well known, known by Schoenfeld. It's Brad Schoenfeld, who's done a lot of the research we have on hypertrophy. There There was one in the last couple years, that was done by bass Val which kind of explore some of the higher volumes. And when you look at the two, you see a pretty clear relationship where it's not a one to one improvement, you know, you do get more bang for your buck per se in your first few sets. But there's a more notable increase in hypertrophy, when you add more volume in there is in strength, makes kind of sense strength is specific skill, you can only go gets get so much of that. And hypertrophy is more of a physiological adaptation. But anyway, so when you when you look at this research, you have to keep in mind that the vast majority of the studies that have been meta analyzed, they are observed training studies where researchers were in the lab motivating the individuals and encouraging them to go to various forms of failure. And I see various forms because there are various forms that the participant thinks they've reached failure or the, the researcher thinks, Okay, that you know, at bars slow down enough, I think you're at failure, or they actually make them go to the point where they miss a rep. So that describes 95% of the studies that have been meta analyzed. So that means that our understanding of volume is with the assumption of there being sufficient effort. Now the data we have on failure is a whole nother kettle of fish. And it suggests that you don't need to go to failure to get the benefits, but you need to be reasonably close to failure, you can't be six, seven reps short all the time and expect to get the same kind of gains you would be if you were to three, or maybe even for reps short. But therefore, it is an issue if someone is doing what they think is an appropriate amount of volume, but they don't know that they're not training nearly hard enough. However, I think for novices, this is actually less of a problem than than it might necessarily be, so long as they have a mind towards progressive overload, which is such a critical concept. Because if if they are, you know, doing, you know, a five by five with their 12 rep max initially, you know, you're like, Oh my God, that's seven reps on failure, that's never gonna work. Well guess what the heaviest squat they ever did was getting off the toilet last week, you know, like, so putting, you know, is 60 kilos on their back, or 135 pounds, even though they're a 200 pound person. And they could squat that for 12 reps, and only doing sets of five is absolutely progressive overload compared to what they've done. And it will be a sufficient stimulus to give them gains. And as they get more acclimated to the weights, and if they hopefully get feedback from either, you know, a trusted workout partner, or eventually a coach, or just, you know, thrown out a video on or on a Reddit forum being like, Hey, how's my form, people are gonna be like, you know, what did you think your proximity to failure was? You know, I think I had another couple, like, try seven, and like, Oh, really, you know, so, I think, so long as you don't let your ego get in the way. And as you get a little more integrated into the culture, which I think is an important part of any pursuit, then it typically takes care of itself. And some of the research we have on people who are just probably, quote unquote, not training hard enough, is kind of just like a random selection of people at the gym is not necessarily when we're looking at, you know, well trained lifters. And in fact, when we look at well trained lifters, they're actually very accurate at estimating the proximity to failure, which you can experimentally do. And when you meta analyze that scene, so I talked about meta analysts meta analysis, there's a great meta analysis by helpern colleagues was suggested on average, in the studies where we've looked at how accurate are people gauging their proximity to failure, with a fair number of them being on trained lifters? While there's a wide point estimate, on average, it's being one rep off. So the average person who lifts is probably doing fairly well in their estimations or proximity to failure, certainly well enough to be, you know, making their volume matter.

Philip Pape 18:50

Yeah. And I think that you had a lot of great concepts here for the newer lifter, as they're getting into what you call it, the culture, right? That eventually it's going to work out. And I experienced this myself, a lot of people struggle, even knowing what to do, right and listening to folks like you and understanding the research, but basically, just getting out there, and finding a program and doing it right, because adherence is number one, and then building over time, whatever that is, like you said, you may have seminar AR, and then as you if you do sets across and then you add weight, it's going to catch up to where you need to be and you're really going to push yourself that getting ingrained in the culture, I think is is a good segue into self determination theory because one of the elements of that you talked about recently with your friend Omar on Iron culture, I love that show man. Is is relatedness. And you talked about self determination theory, the idea that three three aspects autonomy, competence and relatedness right so autonomy being you know, having agency and then competence and competence building skill and and relatedness having some sort of community or like you said culture, and then having this athlete centered approach if you're a coach to help someone develop that and increase self esteem You also talked about how we could use that ourselves as sort of a checklist. You talked about the Combi model, I'm not gonna get into all the details, if you want to learn the details, folks, go check out iron culture. But putting it all together, it seems that we're not talking so much about a specific program or specific, you know, style of lifting. We're really talking about mindset and agency and self determination, right? So these are valuable things, challenging people giving them knowledge giving them agency. Where am I going with this? I guess I'm looking for you to elaborate a bit on that topic in the context of maybe some stories that you've had, or athletes you've worked with, and share strategies that listener can use to take action in that context.

Dr. Eric Helms 20:41

Yeah, I think what might be useful, just because I'm kind of often position as the Science Guy is to talk about how sometimes when we get a little too rigid with our perspective on evidence based practice, and a little too dogmatic and maybe a little too prescriptive, and feeling like, you know, if there's a study on something, you know, therefore, it's actually a commandment of what we must do now, in what can sometimes turn people off, is that when they're doing something that they like, that they've set out, they've written down, maybe it's not perfect, per the PubMed guidelines right now, but it is sufficient, it covers the big rocks, you know, and they're told, don't do that do this, you should expect based upon our understanding of human motivation, that their knee jerk reaction will be various shades of Go f yourself, you know, depending on how nice they are. Because what you're essentially doing is subverting what we understand from the evidence, ironically, about human nature and human motivation. And you're telling someone, you know, you don't get to decide what you do for yourself, you know, so that may not be your intention, it probably is not. But I think when I have been in a coaching position, or in a science communication position, I've not always been super aware of this, and I've tried to be more aware of it, that I'm essentially, you know, throwing a threat towards someone's autonomy. It's kind of like, you know, you know, you're supposed to clean your room, but you get told to clean your room, and I like a lot of want to clean my room. Now, you know, it's things you otherwise might even want to do bother you, when when someone else is trying to impose what feels like their will on what things that you would do anyway. And this is something I think we can all relate to. And it's kind of the quote unquote, trick of therapy. If you talk to therapists, the reason why they ask questions, and they probe deeper, and they don't just tell you, you're an abusive relationship, you should probably leave this person is because that's far less effective than you realizing and saying to yourself, I'm in an abusive relationship, I should probably leave this person, same message, two very different things, and you can't have a realization for someone else. But you absolutely can assist them and share your perspective so that they might be able to get there faster, or get there at all. And that's ultimately what the role of a coach is. And I think scientists, in an applied field, like sport science, or health science, or exercise science, or nutrition science, would do very well to understand this very basic concept of the way people operate. Because then they can help get someone towards a more effective approach, which will get them better progress, potentially enhance adherence, make them happier, make them more resilient to injury, and maybe less likely to make errors quit getting give up or get frustrated, without actually making a threat to their autonomy. So the idea of autonomy, supportive coaching, is exactly that. It's the idea that it's not about you is the coach, yes, they hired you, yes, you're the expert. But that doesn't mean that you are a dictator, or authority or authoritarian, who just tells the person what to do. And a lot of the times you take a collaborative stance, you might make a suggestion, you might ask for permission, even to make a suggestion. And if there's a given, you know, program that you've been following, or the person has been doing with success, and then you go from there. Cops weren't there for me, we're good. So a lot of the autonomy supported coaching, or what you might call person centered, athlete centered or client centered coaching is based around that principle. It's intertwined with other things like you know, motivational interviewing and other skills that you can build around that. And it's not that it's like all of a sudden, your, your your bachelor's degree in exercise. Science doesn't matter or your certification is not important. But it's really just more about how you get to delivering that information. And it's not something that's just trying to avoid a negative. My experience has been that it's actually a positive that when you communicate with people in this way, they get far more excited, far more invested, they're more likely to train hard and not miss sessions. And they're more likely to communicate with you and give you information because they know that's their role, rather than being told I am a cog in a wheel or I'm the soldier you're that Captain, you know, I'll drink blood, you know, tell me tell me whatever you do, Coach, you know, like, we think that's a good thing like the good soldier, but ultimately, the only access, we have to how is that athlete adapting? You know, what's their their mental outlook on this? What do they think is it working because we're not there in the kitchen with them. Even if we're there in person, we're only there with three hours, you know, a week on average, as a personal trainer, with someone out of the 24 times seven hours they have in a week, the best access, we have to their experience is them telling us that, and if they're not taught that that's an important part of the relationship with the trainer, especially if it's an online trainer who's not even getting those in person. hours, it's just a weekly report, and maybe a video, and hopefully, sometimes some Skype calls or whatever video platform is your preference, the window into their insight, you know, we can make up a lot of things in our head. That's incorrect, but they can tell us a lot. And that's really where we get all our information.

Philip Pape 25:58

Yeah, so one thing I got out of that is never never coach your wife, because a lot of these, a lot of these tips are very much relationship advice as well. But anyway, regarding training, how do you deal with someone? If you have a client? Who is the type that says, Just tell me what to do? Tell me what to do. I'll do it. And I think I hear a lot of, you know, athletes who've just been around, you know, been around the block for years. And now they kind of know what to do. And they want the guidelines and the recommendations, how would you respond to that? Are you trying to help educate them on this motivational research and enlighten them as to how this relationship can be even more fruitful using this? Or what's your approach?

Dr. Eric Helms 26:35

Yeah, a little bit of both. So I mean, one thing is that they're being very clear with what they want. They don't want to sit here and tell you all bunch of shit. Just give me what you think is best, which

Philip Pape 26:43

is agency? Yes. Yep,

Dr. Eric Helms 26:46

yep. You I've hired you to tell me what to do. So quit walking around and talking about this fufu stuff and telling him what to do. Right. And I think you do have to meet them there. I think some of the things that you need to do as a coach is essentially going very kind of, you know, straightforward. If that's the way the athletes kind of delivering that. It's like, Yeah, cool. Well, I need to know X, Y, and Z. So I can tell you what to do. You know, and then, you know, they'll respond to that and kind like, so I need to know, I need you to give me a like a rating of perceived exertion on the whole session on Monday, Wednesday, and Friday. Wednesday is supposed to be an easier session. So you recover before Friday. But hey, if your if your RPE is similar to day one, three, or higher than that's an issue, I need to know that and we need to change the program. Let me know how the body's holding up when we do this kind of volume. So you need to have give them clear, and not kind of these open ended things. But give them clear things. And I want X, Y and Z from you on these days in this way. And then, you know, I think you do educate them a little bit you explain to them that the best tool, I have to know how you're recovering is what you tell me. My best understanding of your motivation levels is what you tell me. You can absolutely ask them Hey, like, what are your goals? Where do we want to get to? And even ask some wise? Oh, goodness, you know, I think it'll be okay. Sure. So, yeah, I think getting them to open up to you to the degree that they're willing. And if if they if they kind of start with Hey, like, coach, tell me what to do. I want to know what to do. And I've hired you as a consultant kind of deal. Give me the guidelines, then that's great. You just need to always frame things through that. So that's the lens you take. And you okay, for me to do that. I need x, y and z. And then I think you'll you'll find that relationship works quite well. And yeah, so the athletes will tell you what they want on almost all cases, even when what they want is not to tell you much. But they might not know what that actually looks like. And on the other side of it, because they aren't you, right. So they've never been on the other side of a coaching. Well, not that's not true. Many times they haven't been on the other side of the coaching relationship. So being able to communicate to them your needs is pretty important in in all coaching relationships, and framing it in such a way that these are my needs so that I can be of service to you in the most effective way possible. Yeah. Okay. Yeah, that

29:09

makes a lot of sense. Hi, my name is Lisa. And I'd like to Big shout out to my nutrition coach Philip pape, with his coaching, I have lost 17 pounds, he helped me identify the reason that I wanted to lose weight, and it's very simple longevity. I want to be healthy, active and independent until the day I die. He introduced me to this wonderful app called macro factor. I got that part of my nutrition figured out along with that is the movement part of nutrition. There's a plan to it and really helped me with that. The other thing he helped me with was knowing that I need to get a lot of steps in. So the more steps you have, the higher your expenditure is and the easier it is to lose weight when it's presented to you like he presents it it makes even more sense. And the other thing that he had was a hunker guide, and that really helped me so thank you, but

Philip Pape 29:54

what about on the other side where somebody doesn't have a coach and it's a it's a The challenge of motivation, I guess, right? And we throw that word around a lot. But you did talk about this Combi model the capability, opportunity and motivation, driving behavior and using that as a checklist, even for yourself. So how can someone do that someone listening was like, I don't know, I don't want to work with a coach can't afford a coach, I just want to do it myself and learn to lift and make progress, but I'm not motivated.

Dr. Eric Helms 30:20

Yeah. So first, I just want to say that absolutely, you can make this thing work without a coach. And when we think about self determination theory, you know, there's relatedness doesn't need to be a coach, it just means that part of the community, feeling like you're understood being acknowledged, kind of no persons in Ireland, yada, yada, yada. A lot of respect to this the psychology there you like that?

Philip Pape 30:41

No, no, it's very important community isn't.

Dr. Eric Helms 30:44

It is the yatta yatta yatta didn't quite give it the the gravity of intended. Competence is essentially feeling you're getting better at something over time, like when we get frustrated, as we feel like we're putting forth effort, but nothing's changing, right. And that makes you want to quit. So you can very clearly see how that's a threat to, to sticking with something and then finally, autonomy that the goals are pursuing our hero. And none of that requires having a coach. But you can use that as checklist. And then also, like you introduced another really cool model that is often used in understanding the pursuit of health behaviors, or not the pursuit of health behaviors, or the cessation of health behaviors is the Combi model, like you said, and that is exactly what you said competence, which lines up very much with the SDT model opportunity, which I think is very complementary to the self, the stt model. So determination theory is understanding that, yeah, like, if you want to have a community, but you live in a very remote area, and you don't have an internet access, or don't have you like, or you're really not good with technology, you don't have the opportunity to develop relatedness very, very easily. Right? Or if you want to, you know, I watched the documentary or the new the, the real life Hollywood story of the Williams sisters and their father coaching, like, if you want to get into tennis, but you live in, you know, like an inner city, when you don't have a lot of money, that's going to be harder to do than then if you live in the suburbs, right. So those types of things, it helps explain some of the realities related to self determination theory. So you can self identify those things. A coach should also pay attention to those things. So capability, opportunity, and the M, which I'm blanking on at the moment, motivation, motivation, thank you, which is why I forgot it because it's get the CORE Center of STP STP explains all of that. So that's where the link to. So when you look at the con V model, someone might have the capability and the opportunity to do something. But if they're not actually interested, and they don't, they're autonomous desires not to do something, or any other element of it is not actually leading to them having the motivation, which doesn't mean like the group X instructor yelling at you, but like the motive to do something, I don't have a why I don't want to do this, it doesn't matter. You know what resources or ability you have to do something, you just want to do it. I think back to when I was running track in high school, I just did not like running the foreigner meter, even though I was reasonably good at it. And I made up a pretty solid four by 14. And I just did it because I didn't want to let the team down. But as soon as I get out of high school, I never run a foreigner meter again. You know, right. So

Philip Pape 33:30

you're talking about an incentive. So if you're a professional athlete, your incentive might be millions of dollars. And like you said, Yeah, okay.

Dr. Eric Helms 33:36

Well, interestingly enough, the strongest incentive is actually not the pay, although I've never been paid a million dollars to do anything. So that might make me change. My perspective on this theoretical construct is actually intrinsic motivation. You know, I would say that competing in bodybuilding is a lot harder than running the foreigner meters, even though they're running the four meters is very hard. But because I have a strong intrinsic drive to do it, and I get something out of it, I will keep doing it. And extrinsic motivators are at best things that support that or add on to it or is the cherry on top of the cake. But at worst when they supplant that when you start doing it purely for the win for the trophy, or for the million dollars, you find yourself just feeling like I just don't have the same drive. It's not like it used to be I'm doing this like a job. It feels like a job now. And that's something you want to avoid at all costs. And it is easy with the reward structure of sport, when competitive desire sometimes supplant our initial process oriented drive for those things to get subverted. So it actually takes effort and in purposeful thought to hold on to an intrinsic drive to do something while you're also pursuing extrinsic outcomes. Easy example was the athlete who has their best showing ever best performance ever, but places lower just because the field was more challenging, but they feel like a failure. You know, they did everything right and If they were not competing, and they're just going to the gym and looking at their logbook, they're like I crushed it. But because they got ranked, you know, that whole Comparison is the thief of joy, that actually turned it on its head. And now they are not as motivated to do what they love doing, which can be can be tragic if it leads to burnout, but being able to hold those two things, appreciate the progress you've made, the place where you're at your commitment to something, and have the pursuit of excellence, but then also have a competitive goal and outcome and say, hey, I want to do better. Where am I at realistically is it is hard, and a coach can also help with that. So to answer your question, the Combi model is great, you can assess the opportunity, you can assess the motivation, and that kicks you back up to SDT. It's like a flowchart. And then you can also assess, you know, competence or capability, which are kind of one of the same. And that creates this ecosystem, if you're self coached of where am I at? And what do I need to work on? What do I need to identify what resources do I need to connect myself with. And another piece that's not connected to any of this, but just advice I have for self coached individuals is report into yourself, it's gonna feel weird. But get a spreadsheet, have a plan, and then record a message as if you had a coach on a weekly or bi weekly basis, will write an email, and you can even send it to yourself. And this is something that makes sense. If you have coached before, if you're just an athlete, this is gonna sound weird. But for someone who has used this coaching model for others, it puts you in a certain frame of mind, and allows you to be a little more objective. You go okay, what would I do with this person if their name was not their account, and they said they did X, Y, and Z. And you can be more objective about what might be the best decision. So it's kind of like a little Jedi mind trick on yourself to be the same type of coach you can be for others for yourself, which is generally quite hard, because you're so emotionally close to

Philip Pape 36:52

decisions you're making. And you have to have the knowledge and tools, like you're sharing here to even know to do that. But I do have a friend who kind of has a ranking system for multiple areas of his life, you know, relationships, fitness, and so on and kind of coaches themselves and then reports add on to it to it with a group of other men that he talks to. So that's kind of the relatedness part. So you had me a flowchart You had me at Jedi mind trick now I'm wondering, Eric, your personal routine, like how do you right now? What is the the big motivator for you? Is it the competition? Is it yourself? What is it?

Dr. Eric Helms 37:27

Yeah, I'm I'm very solid in in, in what I'm about. And my best guess is my future, it's very hard to predict who I will be at 65. But having been doing this for now, my first comp competitive season was oh seven and bodybuilding. And oh six in powerlifting. I started lifting in oh four. So I'm coming up on two decades of lifting and loving it. And having that relationship change in my meaning and wise change and becoming more aware. I think I'm pretty bought in intrinsically. And I don't think that's going to change. I suspect I will be getting on stage as an M one competitor, but also m two and M three in the future. And just doing it to see being the best version of myself at any given time. And that makes sense to me. And I look forward to it. But because of that I'm allowing myself to be able to lean a little more into my competitive side. So one of my my goals, not my main goal, but one of the goals I have this year is to try to get my WMV F pro card, and something that wasn't a goal in prior years. But it's been something I've thought about for a long time. My first introduction to Natural Bodybuilding was I was a test judge at a show in 2006. That was a WMV F show and my first time I learned like, oh, Natural Bodybuilding, it's a thing. And I was like, Oh, this is cool. I want to compete in this. And it was Rodney hilarious show in Georgia when my wife was still stationed in the Air Force Rodney Hilaire is a multiple time, late 90s, early 2000s WNBA F pro champ, and the heavyweight division won world titles in the heavyweight class. And, and yeah, in Augusta, Georgia, are making around the area, I can't recall exactly where he had the show. And I got to see these competitors. And ever since then I've like oh, so a good goal would be to get my WNBA pro card, which is probably at this stage in Natural Bodybuilding, the hardest professional status to get and you know, I haven't got it yet. I've gotten pro qualified and smaller organ, a smaller organization back in my third season. So it's something that means a lot to me. And then in turn with that, then competing as a pro at the highest stage worlds is kind of like those are my final bosses that might change. Like if I do decently well at Worlds as a pro. And I'm like, let's see how far I can take this. You know, like, I'll go wherever my body will let me go. But I am noticing that the gains are coming harder and harder to come by at this stage, which I don't think it's an age thing, but I think it is I have been lifting for 20 years thing and I may be closer to the ceiling that I'd like to admit.

Philip Pape 39:57

Yeah, no, I would love to be there someday fortune Only fortunately for me, I started lifting about three years ago and still a lot on the table to go after, as are a lot of my listeners who want to understand how to do that how to. So you've been doing it for this many years. First First question is, would you go back and tell your younger self to do it differently? And then second, what is right now having written the muscle strength pyramids, and all these different ways to program and everybody's individual different levels of volume? Still? What are the principles and the bedrock of just the basic programming for a new lifter? Who actually does want to prioritize both strength and size?

Dr. Eric Helms 40:33

Hmm, yeah. So the first thing, what would I tell myself is that just because you've never been injured, and you've never been a little overweight, doesn't mean they can't happen, you young, skinny person, and perhaps plan for those things. But you don't know what you don't know. Because I did have a fair number of lower back injuries, just from kind of not thinking about what I was doing in my lifting early on, which set me out a good bit. And then after my first season, I didn't think at all about there being any I figured I would, I'm really, really hungry. That's fine. I'll eat a lot. And I'll get back to my offseason weight and that's it. But I actually gained like 44 pounds in three months, and then spent most of my next offseason, like dieting off that after dieting, which is less than ideal. So anyway, you know, just kind of tell tell me some things that are coming down to then like around that corner, there'll be monsters was essentially what I would tell myself, and then I let the rest sorted out, because I kind of like where I'm at. But I wouldn't have minded not getting, I don't know, it's tough to say like, I don't think three would be around if I didn't have those things.

Philip Pape 41:37

But have you had to have all those experiences? Yeah,

Dr. Eric Helms 41:39

I did. Yeah. So Yeah, take that, for what it's worth.

Philip Pape 41:43

You know, it's funny, you say that, because I can really tell a little bit because when I when I started lifting, and a lot of it was based on your stuff, and reading, you know, Andy Morgan, right, who you co wrote the author with, and are co authors with, and I kind of neglected the new drip nutrition, half of that. And also gained quite a bit of weight on I don't know whole milk and whatever I wanted to eat, you know, to, but but unless you go through that process, you don't realize that on one hand, it does help with the lifts. And on the other hand, well, now you need to learn about nutrition.

Dr. Eric Helms 42:13

Yeah, having the experience I had with nutrition and being someone who grew up skinny and never even thought about I just ate, you know, it's like whatever, the first time having body image dissatisfaction and feeling like I wasn't in control of my own eating, that gave me a window into something that a lot of people deal with in our in our society, unfortunately, and which gave me the drive to then learn more about it. And now a significant chunk of what I do as a researcher, and a significant part of my part of my writing is, you know, talking about what is sometimes been considered the elephant in the room in the bodybuilding community, which is, you know, body image dissatisfaction and disordered eating patterns, if not full blown eating disorders. And that's a common thing in sport, especially weight class, restricted sport and physique sport even more so. So, you know, helping people kind of recapture some of that control in a healthy way is, is what I do. So anyway, a bit of an aside. So your second question, if I, if I remember correctly, was, what is my basic advice for early stage or late stage novices early stage intermediates, they want to pursue both strength and hypertrophy? Yes. Yeah. So yeah, first thing I would advise is, do do some work to figure out what your minimum effective dose is. Some of the research we have would suggest it is probably you know, one to five hard sets that are specific on the lifts you care about for getting stronger. And that's easily work into workable into a program English. And the way I'm currently doing, it could be somewhat of a model, where one to three times per week on the squat, the bench and the deadlift, I'm working up to a heavy single, this is a single I probably couldn't do a second rep with but that I don't feel so unsure of that I need a spotter. If your experience level is not such where you can be that precise, get a spotter or just be a little bit lighter, the heaviest, you're comfortable without a spotter and certainly going to be sufficiently heavy enough to drive strength.

Philip Pape 44:13

So this would be this would be like a 90% 90. Maybe 95%. Yeah,

Dr. Eric Helms 44:17

yeah, exactly, exactly. Okay. Now the thing is, for folks who've only been added a couple years, just do this, doing this will change what that number is sometimes even week to week, if you're used to doing say five or something like that. The reason why the minimum effective dose can be quite effective is because these specific stimulus is a more potent stimulus, right? So you might find yourself starting to do these singles and every week you can add five pounds to inhibit the the same feeling of the same percentage, which is a good thing when you're getting stronger. So yeah, I would typically recommend you can do that. And then for your back off work, it doesn't necessarily have to be the same movement. So you could do a single at a squat and then move on to a leg press for you backoff work, if you happen to be well built for a squat, you could then move into your hypertrophy work. So these, these top singles are a really useful tool to get good at the skill of the lift. And then to actually do the hypertrophy work, you can do movements that are a little more suited towards bodybuilding. Not that the deadlift, the squat, and the bench aren't great builders of muscle is that they also tend to come with, you know, costs associated with them. Yeah, they're more stressful. Mentally, it's harder to work up to a heavy set of five on a squat than it is on a leg press for most people. And if you want to have a you want to modulate you're stressed down mental or physical. Or if you have joint pain, where you can only do so much volume on a thing like you brought up earlier shoulders and benchpress. This gives you a lot of flexibility, you know, you can do your top single on bench shoulder start to get a little niggly like, that's good, move over and do some some cable flyes or something like that. So

Philip Pape 45:56

this is a really good concept to sit with, because I hear it all the time. And I'm always talking to all my 40 Something friends, you know, we have little aches and pains from lifting. These are really good concepts, you know, one being top setback offset, right, the other being going to support supportive or accessory movement, rather than over stressing on on the max reps for that first movement. Good, really good advisor just wanted to sit with that let people soak it in.

Dr. Eric Helms 46:22

Absolutely. And kind of the way I see it is for strikes, specifically, there's a hierarchy of what is like useful, productive time. And the specific movement itself, you know, without any other context is your best bet at improving that specific movement. But there are costs associated with it, you can only do so much of it, especially at that heavy load. And then from there you kind of you can, it's useful to have schema for what are the different exercises for So a common mistake you see is someone in a strength phase, or they're going to do tricep pushdowns, or doing heavy sets of six to eight, like well on the strength phase. So all my movements, I'm just doing lower rep. That's a reasonable thing to do. But then you have to think, Okay, well, why am I doing a tricep push down, it's probably not for direct transfer of strength to a benchpress. Right? I mean, bench press, you're lying down on your back, you've got a bar on your hands, you're trying to be tight and arch a little bit, a tricep push down, you're standing up, it's a cable, your hands are way closer together. It's a single joint movement, there's no coordination with your your shoulders and chest, you know you're stabilizing yourself at standing. So there's going to be next to zero transfer of actual skill. The reason we're doing tricep pushdown is because trying to increase the cross sectional area of our triceps so that there's more contractile tissue so that when we bench, we're probably able to produce more force. So it's this is a long game, right? So what's the best rep range for you to do a tricep push down is the real question. And a six to eight bothers your elbow, but I got to do X, I'm going to strike face shadow do 15 to 20 reps, that's fine, you know, because we know from the data on hypertrophy, and so long as the effort is there, approximately to failure, if you will, that, you know moderate reps or high reps are going to be roughly equivalent on a set set basis. For most people. Your mileage may vary. But I wouldn't start with the assumption that you're, you know, a special snowflake who responds better to high reps than low reps or vice versa. Unless you have good personal data, you're most likely to be someone who is going to get the same bang for your buck if the RTR is similar when you're doing 12 or sixes, right. So that's one thing to consider that the movements that are there to produce hypertrophy, hypertrophy will help strength, but they don't need to be done in such a specific narrow confines that you typically see in some of the quote unquote, power building programs. Yeah,

Philip Pape 48:37

yeah, no, that's, that's good, that's good as well. And even alternating between those rep ranges to take the stress off, right and rotating. So that's all really good before, I know, we only have 10 minutes left. So I wanted to get to like one or two other topics real quick. Let's do it. And the nutrition we covered nutrition a little bit, there's a friend of mine, he's a fellow coach, shout out to Dustin Lambert. For this one. There's kind of I don't know if it's a debate or just, you know, as always, there's there's camps with different things when it comes to plant versus animal protein. And whether one is whether one is more beneficial than the other. And of course, you have to look at the context and the goal right is are we talking body composition? Are we talking strength, cardiovascular health, hypertrophy, and so on. So you can cherry pick made analysis like there was one I found my limb at all 2021 That showed a slight benefit for animal protein for lean mass secretion, but no difference in strength. Anyway, that's just one of many. So what is the evidence tell us about the differences between animal and plant protein in terms of outcomes, not just proxy measures, which is another thorny area, right, but real human outcomes? Is there a rule of thumb that works for most people like you know, get a certain amount of grams protein from plants for overall health and nutrients and the rest of them whatever you want, or, you know, what are your thoughts on this?

Dr. Eric Helms 49:51

I liked how you just framed up there at the end because in reality, we don't eat animal and plant proteins. We eat animals and plants, right. And it's very difficult in these analyses to tease out whether it is the food that contains the amino acids, or whether it is and the nutrients associated with those foods, or whether it is the specific, you know, like, like amino acid in them. And I can tell you that when it comes down to a very reductionist take on protein, it shouldn't make any difference at a certain with certain caveats. So the reductionist view of why animal proteins are typically better, or animal source proteins are typically better than plant source is because they generally have a more complimentary, essentially amino acid profile, they have higher amounts of Leucine, they're not quote unquote, missing or low in any specific essential amino acid. So is this as a random example, pea protein, very robust in branched chain amino acids, high leucine content relatively comparable to way, but if I recall correctly, it's relatively low in myth union, which is one of the other essential amino acids. So it's a problem, right. But again, we don't eat proteins, we eat foods. So it is very rare that you will find a vegetarian or a vegan, who has a pea protein shake, post workout, but then doesn't have any other protein sources have any meaningful amount or sufficient amount of protein by the end of the day. So that shortfall of methionine is not a problem, when they're also having rice and beans, chickpeas, and all the other foods that they're consuming in a day. So you could ask the question, all right, well, if these various different plant based proteins are, you know, you know, not not that high and certain essential amino acids, that means the overall quality is lower. And you could probably make a mechanistic argument like you alluded to that, yeah, when we compare like just the protein quality, you generally see a hierarchy. Not always, but generally, were plant based proteins are a little lower in terms of their amino acid composition and digestibility scores compared to animal proteins. But the differences are not as extreme as most people think. And we're extremely efficient at extracting everything out of the food we eat. And most importantly, is when you look at Applied outcomes is that when you're consuming the ranges of protein that we recommend for sport, decent kind of threshold of where you start to maximize the benefits of protein is right around 8.7 grams per pound, or 1.6 grams per kilogram. We actually have studies now on vegans lifting weights compared to omnivores, where they're consuming at least this amount, and in the periods of time studied, you know, typical training study six to 12 weeks, we don't see any significant difference between groups. And now that's kind of like addressing the typical argument against, like, you know, the vegan protein and the thing, oh, you need to eat a little more something like that. The argument for is generally Hey, you know, we look at these studies on vegetarians and vegans population level, we cherry pick certain meta analyses, and hey, these vegetarian or vegan diets look healthier. They seem to have better health outcomes than omnivorous diets that include meat. But when you start to control for a lot of the confounders and the covariates, which is really difficult to do, because you don't get to really experimentally control these things. So there's observational research, which is highly valuable, but it has some limitations, you start to see that the picture that gets gets painted, is that vegetarians in general, are more health conscious people. If they're adopting a specific way of eating, they're less likely to smoke, they're less likely to drink, they're more likely to be active. And when you control for those factors, all cause mortality starts to be very similar. So when you have comparable omnivores and comparable vegetarians, like you specifically look at omnivores, who exercise, don't smoke, don't drink, a lot of those things go away. And I think the best overall big picture interpretation of the data we have is that a plant based diet is beneficial for you, rather than an omnivorous diet being automatically a negative for you. That's not to say there aren't some things in some omnivore omnivorous diets that have maybe a negative signal in the noise. Like if you were to eat a whole lot of processed meats, or like charred food, or trans fats, or a very high diet very high in saturated fats, you could run into some some problems that would be of course greatly mitigated by the fact that you're exercising and doing all these other things that I discussed. But there's no reason you can't do those things. And also be an omnivore. Like, I'd be hard pressed to see how a, you know, like a pescatarian wouldn't be in as good or a better position than than a vegan, you know, because you've kind of avoided all of those things. But then you've got a you know, the end the protein quality might be a little higher on average, and they're also getting probably more DHA in their diet. So, you know, if we really wanted to kind of play like the health Olympics, you start splitting hairs but at that point, once you start to kind of play the health Olympics, we are talking about so small differences that they don't matter in the long run, and you've ticked all the boxes. So, so long as you're consuming complementary proteins as a vegan throughout the course of the day, not necessarily the same meal, and you're hitting that threshold of protein intake, and you are lifting weights, you're probably good to go. And likewise, if you have a omnivorous diet, but it's heavily plant based, you're probably good to go.

Philip Pape 55:18

Yeah, and that's a good one that was actually the one I was really getting at was the idea that a lot of omnivores don't eat very many plants, let's just be honest. And so this could be a little bit of incentive to say, well, you know, getting some some of your protein from your plants gets you to eat more plants. Anyway,

Dr. Eric Helms 55:33

one recommendation for everyone is go to Omar ECFC YouTube channel, and I want you to watch any video you want. And then just scroll to the last 30 seconds and take that message to heart. That's all I have to say. Okay. He says, Eat your vegetables, eat your vegetables, eat your vegetables, the end of every single video.

Philip Pape 55:50

That's right. That's right. Yeah. Yeah. Omar is great. Yeah, if I have you on again, we have to dig into iron culture stuff, because I got so many questions there. I'm trying to get him on the show. And I don't know, maybe you can give them a little nudge.

Dr. Eric Helms 56:03

Good luck, Omar in podcaster. There's one podcast, he does

Philip Pape 56:08

worry a shirt from his company, you know, send him a video. But yeah. So yeah, what was it? Oh, and then the confounders. That's another thing you mentioned. Because the like when you look at diet soda studies, or seed oil studies, you have that similar thing where if you separate out people have overall healthy dietary patterns, even though they consume those things, they tend to be just fine. And you kind of have to separate that. All right, I know you have to go. I have one second. The last question before, before I go. And that is, what one question Did you wish I had asked you? And what is your answer?

Dr. Eric Helms 56:40

Oh, man, that's a tough one. I think you did a really good job. And you asked me a lot of good questions. Honestly, there, you did a good job. And like we kept it high level, like you mentioned off camera. You touched on self determination theory, people who are coached and not coached, which I think was great. You asked me what I would have done different. And when we talked about vegetarian stuff, we got to both sides of the coin. So honestly, I'm gonna be that that like shitty hosts who are guests, who doesn't tell the host anything useful for that question. I think you did a really good job.

Philip Pape 57:11

No, that's, that's, that's a compliment. So I appreciate it. That's fine. So where can listeners learn more about you?

Dr. Eric Helms 57:18

Yeah. So first off, thank you for having me on, Philip. It's been great. This was a lovely discussion. If people want to learn more about what I do. The good one stop shop is 3d muscle journey.com. That is the number three, the letter deed and muscle journey. From there, you can find links to a lot of the things you talked about in the intro, my books, the muscle and strength pyramids, my monthly Research Review for people who want to not just nerd out once in my books, but stay up to date with the monthly nerding. That's myself, Lauren cleanses, simple Dr. microdose, as well as Dr. Eric Trexler. And we review research that comes out on a monthly basis relevant to building your your strength, or you know, manipulating your physique. We really enjoy that. And then the only other things that aren't linked through the various things, you can click on a 3d muscle journey.com is iron culture, which you you know, have talked about so generously which, which I appreciate. And if you want to find all the appearances I do off of my own platforms, like this lovely podcast, follow me at helm's 3d MJ On Instagram where I share all the stuff that I do like that. And on that note, Philip, when you've got any media related to this share with me, I'd be more than happy to post

Philip Pape 58:21

we'll do is I'll put all those links in there. If people want to know whether they should chill their hands before they lift. That's one of the questions that are answering the latest mass review. And, man, it's been a pleasure having you on. Thanks for having this conversation. And I know the listeners will get a ton of value from this, Eric. Thank you.

Dr. Eric Helms 58:37

It's a pleasure. Thank you.

Philip Pape 58:40

If you've been inspired by today's interview, and are ready to take action and build momentum on your health and fitness journey, just schedule a free 30 minute nutrition momentum call with me using the link in my show notes. I promise not to sell or pitch you on anything, but I will help you gain some perspective and guidance so we can get you on the right track toward looking and feeling your best

Philip Pape 5/19/23 Philip Pape 5/19/23

Ep 71: How to Achieve Peak Performance and Wellness with Dustin Lambert

Today we’re diving into how to optimize your health and performance with Dustin Lambert, a fellow nutrition coach I met through the Wits & Weights Facebook group and our coaching cert connection with NCI. Dustin will share challenges and strategies for fat loss as you get leaner, the pros and cons of bulking and cutting versus “maingaining,” and unique issues to consider when you have a metabolic disorder or autoimmune disease.

He’ll also tell us the optimal protein and sodium intake for strength and hypertrophy, and the impact of red meat, saturated fat, and cardio on health outcomes and performance. And finally we’ll get into blood work, tendinitis, wearable fitness trackers, and AI chatbots like ChatGPT.

Dustin Lambert is an NCI certified nutrition coach in the Houston area. He’s also a strength and conditioning coach. Dustin specializes in helping people manage metabolic disorders and autoimmune disease, correct their blood lipid profiles, prevent cardiovascular disease, lose fat, and restore health using barbells and periodized nutrition programming. Dustin is also a full-time husband and father, part-time Hot Rod builder, and once a Marine always a Marine.

__________
Book a FREE 30-minute call with Philip here.
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Today you’ll learn all about:

[2:30] Dustin's purpose and backstory
[7:12] Measuring coaching success and impact
[9:18] How fat loss becomes harder the leaner you get
[14:14] Diet breaks, refeed, eating carbs, and tracking while on break
[16:14] Pros and cons of bulk/cut vs maingaining?
[21:17] Unique challenges when training for fat loss when a client has disorders
[26:54] How much protein do you really need for strength and hypertrophy?
[29:36] Tony shares what he likes about Philip and the Wits & Weights community
[32:05] What are the effects of red meat and saturated fat on health outcomes vs strength and hypertrophy?
[36:43] How much sodium do you really need as a recreational lifter?
[42:46] Programming for tendinopathy.
[46:28] What are the effects of cardio on muscle mass and strength?
[49:13] The limitations of wearable trackers and how to properly use them.
[53:08] How people can use chat GPT to learn how to think independently and develop their own opinions and views?
[57:40] Outro

Episode resources:

Dustin’s Facebook profile

FREE 30-minute nutrition call with Philip ⬇️
https://witsandweights.com/free-call

Learn about 1-on-1 coaching ⬇️
https://witsandweights.com/coaching

Ask Philip anything ⬇️

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Transcript

Dustin Lambert 00:00

So cuts and bulks are good at keeping people focused as far as the nutrition and the diet are concerned because you have a short term goal, and you're gonna work really, really hard to get to that and that goal changes a lot. So that keeps people a little bit more focused on on the long term thing.

Philip Pape 00:19

Dustin Lambert 02:43

yeah, right out of the gate. Man. So my, my purpose as a man, so going through all of this, and, and starting to help people get healthy, and address these, you know, kind of major medical issues that they're having, has really made me take a step back and kind of appreciate my my family a little bit more. And realize, you know, a lot of the reasons why I started lifting and why I started eating healthier. And getting into all of this was because, you know, I wanted to I wanted to be able to play with my daughter. So I had, you know, my wife and I had my daughter at a little bit of a later age, not too too late. But you know, I'm probably going to be in my five zeros when she graduates high school. So, you know, I want to be around for that I want to be active and I want to be a part of her life I you know, I don't I don't want to be relegated to the to the recliner. So going through all of that has made me take a step back. Remember why I started all of this, and, you know, reevaluate some of the things I'm doing in my life and how I, how I manage my days and and just try and do more things with my family.

Philip Pape 04:02

Yeah, and I can relate so much to that. I think we're probably similar in age and parenting age as well. My kids just turned 11 At night, and I'm 42. So that puts me in somewhat that ballpark, maybe not quite. But But But I understand, right? Like, it's these these things in life that really matter. And as you get older, it's no longer about the the silly things we pursued in our 20s let's be honest and right and which, you know, you had to pursue as a young guy trying to build things and people and whatnot. But the idea that you're creating a legacy and you want to be physically there, which translates to everything else meant, you know, your mental and emotional health and everything else. So given that to where you are now, how did how did you lead to that over the last, you know, let's say since your 20s or 30s How did you get here?

Dustin Lambert 04:48

Yeah, so I was I was always really active. I played a lot of sports in high school. I mean, maybe not a lot, but you know, I definitely wasn't not doing something. So it was always active and And when I got out of high school, I went right into the Marines and that's a super active, you know, field to be in. When I left the Marines. I went to school, and learned mechanics and all that stuff. And I kinda let the physical pursuits go. And that just kind of carried on for a while, I met my wife and we got married. And then, you know, one day we both kind of just decided like, Hey, man, we need to, we need to do something. You know, we need to get back in shape. When you start eating, right, we started doing some videos. I don't know if it was Beachbody or something like that. We started something like p90x something. I don't remember. But yeah, so I was doing like rose with the five gallon water jug. And yeah. So we started that. And somewhere along the way, I started listening to a political podcast. And the guy on there kept referencing more crypto starting strength, more grip, Atos starting strength. And so one day, I was like, Man, I'm gonna lift this guy up. So I put it into the old Google thing and picked up some YouTube videos. And I watched the first one. And I heard him talking to think he was on a podcast interview. And he was talking about, you know, everything that's in the starting strength book, and I just kind of like the light bulb went on. And I've always been a really skinny guy. I'm what we in the biz call a hard gainer. So as he started laying out this path, I was like, Ah, this is the information that I've been looking for my whole life. So yeah, so, you know, I got under the squat bar the first the first time and have been doing it for the better part of 10 years now. Yeah, it's been a minute.

Philip Pape 06:52

Yeah, yeah, man, I mean, Barb, once we will discover the barbells. And I don't care who you are, how old you are, what you've done in the past. I mean, I've seen it with my clients I've seen, you know, women who are 50 have never picked up a barbell, and they're open to it. And they do it. It's like, just everything changes. I mean, it's not just physical, right? It's mental. And, you know, I wonder now that you're now that you're a coach, right? You're applying a lot of these principles and philosophies that you have, including with the barbell training, you know, how do you how do you know that's the right thing to do? And how do you measure the success and impact right? We're NCAA coaches, part of what we learned is, you know, connection based coaching, making an impact. How do you measure that?

Dustin Lambert 07:30

Man? That's, I think that's, that's one of the hardest things for me is gauging how much impact I'm having in someone's life. I definitely am doing this to make an impact. I, you know, I'm not trying to get rich. So, yeah,

Philip Pape 07:47

to clear up, man, because Mark, right from

Dustin Lambert 07:52

Newport that way? Yep. Lots of free coaching going on. Yeah, so how to gauge that, I don't know, I really, I think I try and help my clients. Continually, month to month and quarter to quarter and year to year, I have a lot of long term clients. And I think it, it helps to, to remind them just how far they've come from day one. And so, you know, you're, you're a starting strength guy. So you have the logbooks, I always have people start out with a logbook, or they have the online app that we use, and you know, they're whenever they're feeling hard or down or wondering if this is the right direction, or whatever I say, let's go back to day one. Let's remember where you were.

Philip Pape 08:42

Good. Yeah, that's, that's the facts, right? That's where you're in know where you are. Which is why which is why we collect data, because, you know, there are people that for whatever reason, chide the, the use of data, whether it's food tracking, or tracking your workouts or what have you. And, you know, I don't know why maybe maybe the inconvenience of it, or because it's uncomfortable or something different, or people don't like data, whatever it is, but once you do, I mean, it pales in comparison to not doing that and what what you fail to achieve when you don't do that. That's just my opinion. So anyway, let's let's jump into the topics. Because I know we wanted to talk about some fun things like you and I lately have been going through fat loss phases in parallel, right? Yeah, yeah. So on yours. Are you done with it yet?

Dustin Lambert 09:28

I am trying to squeeze out the last remaining bit so I have a cruise. We're going to Mexico at the end of end of the month. So I didn't get my goal. So I'm on a little bit of a break right now. And I'm going to try and squeeze a few more weeks out of it, but excuse me,

Philip Pape 09:45

all right. Make sure to get that last week or two right to get the smack Yeah, fill it up. So it's funny because so you're you're more of a you know, you're stronger bigger guy than me based on your experience where we are, you know, not comparing, I'm just saying that's a fact. So For me losing losing fat now, was was kind of easy. But I'm also not trying to get to that like sub 10%, or around 10% body fat because I need to go build more mass. But for people who are thinking of losing fat want to lose fat currently trying to lose fat, with all the challenges that breaks, right? And I've talked about a million times on this podcast, we don't have to, like lay out all the challenges. I think the big ones are metabolic adaptation, you know, hunger, loss of strength. But what's your take on this? Why does it become harder? Maybe in the different phases? Right, initially, maybe it's not so hard. But once you get into it, and then as you said, trying to squeeze that last bit? Why did it get so hard? And then how can you keep making progress to finish it up? Yeah, so

Dustin Lambert 10:43

it gets harder. I mean, simply, it comes down to the metabolic adaptations. And also, as you lose body mass body tissue, it just simply doesn't require as much energy as it did before to go through day to day. So as you as you drop weight, your TDE is gonna go down despite how active you may want to be. So, so that is a continuing challenge. And I really liked the analogy, I can't remember where I heard it from, but weight loss or fat loss is kind of like wringing out a wet towel. And the first time you take that talent, you dunk it under water, and it comes back out, it's fully saturated. The first time you go to get water out of there, it's really easy. And it kind of it just doesn't matter what you do to it, you can twist it, you can spin it around, you can squeegee it between your thumb and your forefinger, and you're gonna get a lot of water out of that thing the first time. And I think that's probably most people's experience with fat loss or weight loss in general. And that can lead people to think that they know more about it than they actually do. But, yeah, so it really does come down to the metabolism and in how that thing, you know how it gets harder and harder and harder, the closer and closer you get to being whatever your goal is.

Philip Pape 12:05

Yeah, it is it is it. And of course, I'm playing devil's advocate, because I want to I want to hear your take on this as the expert. But is it the is it purely the hunger and the symptoms that come from that when you get further in? So where I'm going with that is you might start at a metabolism of let's say you burn 2500 calories, and so you want to burn, you want to lose a pound a week? So you're 500 calorie deficit, as you're eating 2000 calories? Most people were thinking hearing that or like, Yeah, that's fine. I would love to somebody would love to learn lose fat and 2000 and others are like, Yeah, that's fine. That's normal. And as you adapt, right, your metabolism drops and drops drops. And before long, you're maybe at 16, maybe at 1500, you know, you're starting to push that limit. Is that all is that what it comes down to is just our body is now like starved for resources. And we're also so hungry. Is that the main challenge? Are there other things involved?

Dustin Lambert 12:56

I think that's probably the main challenge that people fight against, you're definitely going to have some hormonal changes that are happening due to that, which is why we periodized our nutrition is so that we can, you know, have an exit strategy for all of that and come out of it and fix it. But yeah, from from my experience, and, you know, just dealing with this with clients, I think the biggest thing people deal with is hunger. Also the mental aspect of it. So as you, you know, the longer and longer you do it for the more and more plateaus, you start to see, the more challenging the thing becomes, you're not seeing the progress that you were in the beginning, you know, if you have, if you have a lot of weight to lose, you can drop 12 pounds in a week, you know, and you run that for 12 weeks, and now maybe it's two pounds. And that can be quite frustrating, and you don't understand why that's happening. Yeah, so

Philip Pape 13:53

you mentioned you mentioned multiple plateaus. You know, we use things like diet breaks and other other things to take that mental break, right? Because, like you said, it's mainly mental. We can't trick we can't trick or or over recover our metabolism like it is what it is. So even if you get back to where you were two weeks ago, it's just gonna come right back and adapt. What like what's your some of your favorite go twos when it comes to that? Is it taking diet breaks? Are there other strategies people might try so that they don't just fall off the rails and say, well, this isn't working anymore.

Dustin Lambert 14:25

I like diet breaks refeeds for some people and so I definitely try and and so if someone is utilizing, tracking, counting calories or macros or whatever, whatever method of restriction we're doing, I don't want them to stop that. Because you don't you don't want to get out of the habit. So we're just taking a break. We're not being we're not on hiatus. We're just kind of, you know, allowing you to get back in the game.

Philip Pape 14:55

Right? Yeah, it makes sense do so do they still track while taking a break or they also take is a break from tracking? No, they still track wants to break. Yeah, right? That makes sense. And this is a is app maintenance basically by upping the carbs. Is that your your main strategy for that? Or is there another approach?

Dustin Lambert 15:11

Yeah, so the carbs will come up mostly carbs. It depends on what somebody's craving. So sometimes people are, are, you know, Johnson for, I don't know, whatever chocolate or something like are, well, let's go, we'll go ahead and allow some fat in here. But I generally try and do bump up the carbs. That way, they start feeling a little bit better during their workouts. And they also start maybe seeing and feeling a little bit more pump from the lifting. And that can help adjust their attitude like, oh, no, actually, I'm starting to look pretty good.

Philip Pape 15:43

Yeah, especially if you drink that large glass of water before they left to right. Well, that's No, it's good that you mentioned not only the diet break itself, but also the the ability to maybe eat some indulgences are some things that you enjoy that you kind of avoid. You've been avoiding, you know, with that discipline, because we like to balance the lifestyle with the discipline, knowing that there's some compromises you have to make and fat loss. But like you said, Hey, if you haven't had that chocolate for four, six or eight weeks, and all of a sudden, you've got a little extra calories, and it is more fat. So what go for it, enjoy it kind of again, that mental side. All right, so you mentioned periodization. One form of periodization, that many people are familiar with is cuts and bolts, right? And some people don't like the terms, but whatever. You know, it's we all understand what we mean, right? Fat Loss versus building muscle. You know, I just finished my diet. So now means ready to build muscle, which I just love that side of it, right? Because it's a lot if you do it, right. It's a lot more of the year than losing fat. So what are you know, but some people say, Well, you shouldn't be switching back and forth. Always Can't you ever just maintain? What are the pros and cons of cuts and bulks versus maintaining or the word you threw in here? Main gaining, which implies like very lean gaining? I mean, what's your thoughts on all of this? Then what do you recommend them?

Dustin Lambert 16:59

Yeah, so I think as far as recommendations goes, it's going to come down to the individual and kind of maybe how I'm feeling initially, and you know, plans can always change, you can start one direction and somebody's like, I absolutely hate this. Alright, well, let's do it this other way. There's not just one way to do it. Yeah, so some pros and cons. So the the main gaining or I've heard it called gain taining to that can set can be a little bit easier. If you don't really like tracking, you don't really like counting stuff. You're kind of good at maybe limiting or moderating some unhealthier choices in your in your food, or maybe things that don't necessarily get you closer to your goal. And definitely, if you're so I think if you were, you know, starting a a strength training regimen, and you really had a plan to do this for nine months to a year or something like that, then main gaining may be a viable option for you. The pros, you know, those are the pros, the cons, the main gaining is that you really don't see a lot of progress happening very quickly. So So if, if just watching the number on the scale, go up slowly over time, or down. And really focusing on building strength or developing technique and your lifts. Or maybe you're a runner, and you're trying to, you know, go for a 10k or a marathon or something like that. And you're really focused on your athletic performance. That can that can be so I lost my train of thought there.

Philip Pape 18:52

Yeah, no, no, I get what you're saying. So your your point is you can't you really it doesn't maximize your progress when it comes to building muscle. So, but it could be a good alternative if you have other goals and yeah, maximize your progress. Yeah. So

Dustin Lambert 19:06

if you're if you're focused on your athletic performance, and not so much, really what you're seeing in the mirror, maintaining can be a good, a good tool to use there. So you're not you're not cutting your see strain yourself too short, doing too much at one time. Yeah. The cuts in the bulks, I think is probably better for somebody who's maybe, you know, two years or three years into their lifting journey. And you're really trying to develop a good physique or you're really trying to get a significant amount of body fat down in a short period of time. So cuts and bulks are good at keeping people focused as far as the nutrition and the diet are concerned because you have a short term goal. And you're going to work really, really hard to get to that. And that goal changes a lot. So that keeps people a little bit more You're focused on on the long term thing.

Philip Pape 20:03

Yeah, yeah, that's a great, that's a great perspective that, even though we don't want quick fixes for any of this stuff, we want to change our lifestyle, we have the long term, the ultimate goal is our health and all the things that we get for that health, like you mentioned with your kids, and being a father and so on. And that's, that's really what a lot of people want. At the same time. As humans, we have a terrible attention span, right, and we like to have quick wins. So, you know, it sounds like breaking it down to that shorter goal could be a really good motivator, breaking it down to even shorter goals, and that in terms of your habits, all of those things are really good strategies for for doing this, which is gives people hope, because I think a lot of people go through life, they're like, Well, I'm a little heavy on the scale, I'm just gonna need to go on a diet. And it's this, this on off switch, and there's not really any structure or drive to do it the right way. So okay, so the main gaining is good for some in some cases. But if you really want, you know, more efficient results in terms of physique, you may want to be going for a specific short term goal. I want to get into some of the things that make your coaching unique, you talk about metabolic disorders, autoimmune diseases, I have like an undifferentiated mixed connective tissue disease, which is autoimmune disease. And very interestingly, last year, after I had titrated, down a medication I take for that, I started to get swelling in my wrists and ankles, which is symptomatic of people who have rheumatoid arthritis sometimes get that right, and other autoimmune diseases. And man, it was just a huge disruption to my lifting, because you felt like you felt weak, weak in your grip, and in your feet, when everything else was strong. It's very odd thing. So I'm curious for you, what are the unique challenges clients face when trying to achieve fat loss with these kinds of disorders?

Dustin Lambert 21:50

Yeah, so I can't speak for everybody, but the the clients that I have that kind of tell me about the symptoms, and the challenges and all the things that they're facing. One of the biggest things across everything across all these diseases is the amount of fatigue and muscle soreness that people experience. And I know, you know, Gen pop, we like to say that I'm fatigued or whatever, but this is different it is it is not the general state of tiredness that people are experiencing from crappy jobs and junk sleep. I've I've had several clients tell me that what they are experiencing could be akin to climbing a mountain. So if you were to spend all day, mountain climbing, the amount of physical exhaustion, and just the the bone deep soreness, muscle soreness, joint, achy joints, all that stuff that that you would experience from that, that's what they go through on a daily basis. And sometimes that's lasts for weeks, months even. So that's, that's definitely a big challenge across all of them. That can be extremely challenging to program for as well. So, you know, those are challenges and all of it, you mentioned the medication. So a lot of people are on medications. And a lot of those medications that are addressing one part of their disease or disorder will often make it a little bit increased their risk for some other aspect of it. So like for metabolic syndrome, if somebody has high blood lipids, they might be put on a statin or something like that. And certain things can increase your risk of type two diabetes, which is you know, blood glucose is another part of that, which is kind of a thing you're trying to avoid.

Philip Pape 23:49

Same thing for the listener, right. metabolic disease being pre diabetes,

Dustin Lambert 23:53

pre diabetes, yeah. So you know, same thing for for blood pressure, they put on diuretics, or beta blockers, and those can increase your risk of type two diabetes. So sometimes there's a constant management of blood glucose, carbohydrate intake, protein intake. Starting to learn a lot about kronor nutrition. Just yeah, so it can be it can be absolutely nerve racking for for these people. And, you know, my heart just goes out to them every time they have to go through this stuff. So

Philip Pape 24:31

now, would you say I mean, would you say one of the the biggest challenges is, is on the lifting side with the ability to do certain movements, or is it nutrition or is it kind of it really depends.

Dustin Lambert 24:42

It kind of really depends. So if somebody's having a soreness or fatigue flare up, then you know, we have to pull back on the lifting and maybe modify whatever it is that they're doing, because they can't You know, I can't bend over today. I can't bend my knees. I can Do whatever you ever experience with your arms. So we may, you know, just have to modify stuff or eliminate lifts or whatever it is they're doing. And then, you know, the nutrition side of that is sometimes we may be in a fat loss phase, or they may have been working really hard to get to a fat loss phase. And then this flare up happens, and I'm kinda like, we're going to have to increase your calories so that you can deal with this. And that can can be a mental mental challenge for them to get through.

Philip Pape 25:33

Yeah, I bet I hear what you're saying I had a client with ulcerative colitis, same thing you just never know. And it would flare up and people have digestive issues, and people have all sorts of sort of ailments. So it's this is where having a coach can be really helpful. It sounds like because you can walk them through, you probably have a broad base of knowledge of strategies to say push through these or at least get around them so that you don't just give up right? Would you say that? Somewhat the sentiment there? Yeah. So

Dustin Lambert 26:01

I try to tell everybody, whenever we start a coaching relationship together, the first call will go over all this stuff, and I try to tell them, Listen, I'm not the guy on YouTube, I'm not the guy on the internet, who's going to tell you that we're curing stuff, at best, at best exercise and nutrition at this point in your life is going to be a management tool. And sometimes it's going to feel like we just spent the last three months, you know, spinning our wheels to just trying to prevent you from regressing. And that's exactly what it's going to be.

Philip Pape 26:36

You know, what, but which, which means the alternative would have been to be sedentary and worse off.

Dustin Lambert 26:41

Yeah. Yeah.

Philip Pape 26:43

That's important for people to hear. Yes. Like you said, there's no, there's probably no person on the planet that wouldn't benefit from some form of additional movement in some kind, right? Yeah. All right. So let's shift to one of the other topics, we wanted to talk about. Some of the nuts and bolts here, protein, let's, let's talk protein, I always love talking protein. So in the context of strength of hypertrophy, getting big and strong as what we're talking about how much protein is optimal? What are some common myths around the consumption of protein that you've dealt with? Yeah, so

Dustin Lambert 27:15

how much protein is optimal? So I know we have the magic number of one gram per pound of body weight. And I, I have come to not really like that number very much. So when we look to the science, and what the the studies are actually saying, I haven't seen one single study where that number is mentioned, it's always a range. Yes. And so it can be difficult for people also, to really try and consume that much protein. I mean, you have a you know, I have I have female clients who are five foot two, and 130 pounds, 140 pounds, something like that. And it's, you know, trying to get them to eat 140 pounds of protein, or 100 140 grams of protein per day, is really, really hard for them to do. So I think, I think what the science tells us is that, as far as gaining muscle or strength, we can be as low as point seven grams per pound. So I will often start people there. And as we progress as we move along, definitely as we go into fat loss phases, I'll titrate that number up to something that's very tolerable. So I kind of like, you know, the Christopher Gardner is the Stanford researcher.

Philip Pape 28:39

Yeah, I've heard him.

Dustin Lambert 28:41

So he has, people can look him up. But he has a he has a philosophy when he when he does these studies, and he does the low carb versus the high carb and all this stuff, and blah, blah, blah. And so he has a philosophy that I really like to implement, not for everything, but for some stuff, but like this protein, which is limbo, titrate quality. So limbo, meaning how low can can it go? So I'm putting that on myself? How low? Can I start this person on their protein intake to make them successful? How low can we go? Okay, so we'll start that point seven. And then you know, if that's too high, still, I have to lower my standards to meet them where they're at. And then once we meet that limbo, once we meet that lowest amount, then we titrate we start titrating up until we get to the point where I can't take it anymore, I cannot have any more protein. This is this is it, this is what I can do. And then we start focusing on the quality of that protein. Cool.

29:36

My name is Tony from a strength lifter in my 40s Thank you to Phil in his Wits & Weights community for helping me learn more about nutrition and how to implement better ideas into my strength training. Phil has a very, very good understanding of macros and chemical compounds and hormones and all that and he's continuously learning and that's what I like about Phil. He's got a great sense of humor. He's very relaxed, very easy to talk to me One of the greatest things about Phil, in my view is that he practices what he preaches. He also works out with barbells. He trains heavy, not as heavy as me, but he trains heavy. So if you talk with him about getting in better shape, eating better, he's probably going to give you some good advice. And I would strongly recommend you talk with him, and we'll help you out. Thanks.

Philip Pape 30:20

Yeah, I like that approach. I mean, it's not too different from from what I would do, and we've talked about, but you have that unique perspective with the limbo in that, you know, I tend to just say, hey, let's get let's shoot for the let's let's shoot for the higher number, knowing that it's a stretch goal, and then titrate, to get to that number of kind of keeping that goal in your brain and in your eyes. But I also have seen clients that just struggle, they just struggle, and it's like, what you're saying could be an extremely valuable tool for the practical lifestyle that somebody has, which is what we're trying to do here is work with real people who are trying to get this done. So yeah, if if you're listening, and you don't currently have enough protein, and you know, you need to get more protein, because you listen to Dustin and me and all these other folks. Think about what tool works for you. And if if you know if you're getting point for you want to get toward this point seven at least, and then just work from there. I've had clients the other opposite direction, just this week, I had one of my calls. And she's at like, one point for us just loves protein. But she's in a fat loss phase. And like, I'm having a little trouble with energy. I'm like, it's because it's because you're kind of trading off too much fat and carbs. So let's, let's go the other way, you know, but that's good that you mentioned that the one gram per pound, I agree is like even the guys that stronger by science, everyone else will say that you don't really have to be there. It's just maybe an average a stretch goal. It's an easy rule of thumb, all those things. Yeah, that's, that's good. That you mentioned that now can can people have too much protein?

Dustin Lambert 31:47

I don't know that you can really have too much protein. I think it's gonna be hard to do. But

Philip Pape 31:53

like the three, three grams per pound?

Dustin Lambert 31:55

Yeah. I don't think I would want to be in the same room with that person.

Philip Pape 32:03

Yeah, depends on where you're getting your protein to. Yeah. All right. So now let's talk let's talk about you mentioned the blood blood lipids preventing heart disease. You know, I know there's always there's always been a little controversy around saturated fats and blood lipids and cholesterol and all these things. Yeah, right. Just a little bit, right. And both are on all directions, right? We said we see especially going through, I was on paleo for I was on paleo. So you can treat these things like their programs. I ate paleo for years. And I was always in that crowd of like, you could eat however much saturated fat you want, you know, the cholesterol is meaningless, you know. And meanwhile, my cholesterol numbers are going up and up. So with with the on ongoing debate we have around red meat, saturated fat, what is their impact on health outcomes? What is their role in strength training, and muscle growth? And then what should people do?

Dustin Lambert 32:55

Okay, yeah, so maybe let's, we'll start with the pros for, for muscle growth and for athletic performance. So the pros is that red meat, I don't really know about saturated fat. But red meat definitely is a very nutrient dense food has a lot of good stuff in there a lot of stuff that you need, and depending on the individual, you may need to consume more of it, you may need to consume less of it. But as far as building muscle goes, I don't think there is you know that that kind of seems to be the undisputed champion other than whey protein. In the in the lifting world. The saturated fat

Philip Pape 33:38

before we go there, you mentioned Okay, some people need more, some people less are we talking about like an iron deficiency or something like

Dustin Lambert 33:44

that? Yeah. Yeah. So So iron deficiency, would it be one? B 12. So if you if you have a more vegetarian style of a diet and you are not focusing on the B 12, you're not, you know, that's just something not people are not tracking. Adding a little more protein in there may be something that I recommend to those individuals.

Philip Pape 34:09

So, or they could just start eating red meat. So vegetarians who listen Yeah, it's great if I just started eating red meat and

Dustin Lambert 34:16

on unbridled amounts of red meat. Yes. Yes. Yeah. Yeah.

Philip Pape 34:25

Yeah. Okay, sorry. So then saturated fat. Yeah, so saturated

Dustin Lambert 34:29

fat. Now, the saturated fat I really don't know about the, you know, nutrient density that versus other fats. But from just an anecdotal perspective, a saturated fat is associated with central adiposity. So fat around your midsection. And for me, I know that when I was much heavier, and my trunk circumference was bigger, I felt more stable, lifting heavier loads. So as my as my waist size has gone down, you know, even if I can lift the same amount, squat or deadlift or overhead press or whatever it is, I definitely don't feel as stable. And I don't feel like I can brace into my belt as much. So just anecdotally, you know, I think that's that for the saturated fat. And then for saturated fat always is going to come with the red meat. And so, again, anecdotally, I think there is just something about feeling more energetic and feeling better. So when we look to low carb communities, paleo and keto and carnivore, not stuff, that seems to be one of the the most common traits that people associate with red meat is just feeling better, having a little bit more energy. So you know, I definitely think there may be something to that,

Philip Pape 35:56

you know, wow, you just you just gave, you just gave me a revelation, and maybe the listeners as well. So you said that, like all these low carb diets that are also high in animal products, and fats, you know, I'm feeling great. I'm all of a sudden low carb, and I'm feeling great and may not be the last the reduction in carbs so much as the increase in some of these nutritious sources of fat and other energy. And, and actually the same client that I suggested reduced protein and increased fat just a few days ago is like, Hey, I felt like I had more energy. Yeah, there you go. So it's and you say it's anecdotal, but I'm sure there's, I'm sure there's studies to back it up. We'll make that claim, and then we'll have to go find internet. There you go. So, actually, or chat, GBT, you know, we're gonna get to that later. Actually, it's been a great tool for that kind of research. Yeah. What about oh, yeah, so red meat saturated fat. What about sodium? Right? There's another one. I actually just heard the guys on mind pump talk, talking about it again. Now. You know, it's always been a thing with sodium and blood pressure, people get too much. And yet many of us especially we eat more whole foods, I think don't get nearly enough. And there's some research that shows that like, one fast food meal has as much sodium as a whole week's worth of Whole Foods, you know, so it's so lopsided from that perspective. Also, sodium is electrolyte, at least from my perspective, that's a great thing. I tell people to salt their water and things like that. So let's just settle here. Now, Dustin. Right, so the world knows what to do. If you're a recreational lifter, what what's sodium? How much to to get?

Dustin Lambert 37:24

Okay. Yes. So most of my day is spent trying to help people reduce the amount of sodium that they're in taking. And I've done a little bit of research into this for just the general gym goer. Okay. So a lot of the a lot of the recommendations that we're receiving in the recreational lifting community and you know, the recreational athlete community is coming from social media influencers and other internet forms of information. And they are communicating science to us, that just doesn't apply to us. So the sodium recommendations for sport are for people who are generally like, we're talking about high level athletes here. We're talking marathon runners, professional athletes, the one level college athletes, that's what all of these recommendations have been based on. So most people aren't even aware of how much salt or sodium they're taking in, despite using tracking apps, that's just not something people are tracking. So high levels of sodium can cause some numerous health issues. Okay. And when we start hearing these, hearing these recommendations, also combined with the fact that people have no idea how much they're taking in how much salt they're taking in, it can lead them to start assaulting food that is already too salty. And that's going to that's kind of put you into the danger zone for a lot of these for a lot of these health issues. So some of those things are hypertension, I actually develop Yeah, I think I developed a salt sensitivity due to the severity issue here. So I was I was of the crowd did just salt, salt on me. I need salt because I need that that intramuscular fluid that intercellular volumization I gotta have this. Yeah, I It's touted as some, you know, major performance enhancer to I don't think that I don't think that that's really the case. So the average person if you start assaulting your food, you're taking in too much sodium and too much salt, you may develop hypertension, even if you don't so there are people who are salt sensitive there are people are not salt sensitive, and you might start taking in a lot of salt and not see any issues with your blood pressure. But that does not mean that you are escaping the effects of this. Because as you take in salt, that salt is going to draw in water. And the reason people's blood pressure gets high is because the volume of blood is now higher. So even though your your arteries and your veins have the capability to expand with this increased volume, your heart is pumping a larger volume. Okay. So your heart has to work harder.

Philip Pape 40:32

Yeah. So okay, so maybe I partially stand corrected. But what about people who have quote unquote, clean up their diet? Or let's just say they've they've transitioned, maybe they've worked with you and have shifted to mostly, you know, 80 90% Whole Foods and maybe the other 10 or 20%? is processed foods? Are they? Do they not have to worry about it at that point? Are they still potentially over assaulting those of people who need to add salt? Like, what's your take on that? Yeah, so

Dustin Lambert 40:58

my, my stance on the salt is, you know, the Limbo, Limbo titrate quality. So, from what I understand, I may be wrong. But the obligate amount of sodium for the human body is 500 milligrams a day. Okay? Okay. It's not two or three grams, like it is not two or three grams, that is a quarter, that is a quarter of a teaspoon. Now, the recommendations that we get from places like the USDA, the American Heart Association, all those other places can be a whole other topic. But those recommendations are generally to try and get an entire population to consume less sodium. Not that that is the optimal amount of sodium. Sure. Okay. So I really think the, the lower you can get your sodium, the better off you're going to be. Yeah, so for most people, if you if you just try and meet the guidelines, which is 2300 milligrams per day, I personally liked the American Heart Association's guideline, which is 1500 milligrams or less per day. I think that most people if you've cleaned up your diet, and and you're doing all the right things that that's going to be more than enough sodium for you to worry about. You don't need to worry about how much is lost in sweat. 95 to 98% of the sodium that you lose is actually done through your urine, not your sweat.

Philip Pape 42:24

Okay? Okay, this is really good to know because I'm gonna start looking at my salt and asking clients maybe to track a little bit because I feel like I get three grams a day or something like that of salt easily every day. So Now granted, I'm eating more right now than I was. That's it. Okay, good to know, man. See, so I learned something every time somebody says alright, let's let's Is there anything else about bloodwork you wanted to cover? We can get into training? Yeah, I don't know we can get in training. Alright, so I, we alluded to a little bit about what we talked about the autoimmune issues, but also, people do a lot of people deal with tendinopathy of some kind, like this is extremely common for overtraining, overuse, overreach, bad form. Whatever, you know, I personally, years ago had a really terrible squat rack grip, which is a very common thing, right? Going. When I was doing starting strength, learning the low bar had to meet with coach, the coach helped me fix everything, actually. What's his name? Cody, Nino here in Connecticut. And if you know me starting strength coach, I'll be fixed that. And then the tendinitis went away after I rehab it. So anyway, so we recently chat about this when I talked about my multi grip bar for my shoulder, right, like online. We were talking about that. And that's an equipment change. But what are some strategies you use with clients when it comes to tendinitis recovery, and continuing to make progress?

Dustin Lambert 43:46

Yeah, so definitely equipment change, definitely some changes in the the actual lifts that we're doing. It really depends on where the tendinopathy is, and kind of what is is usually making it hurt or making it worse. So normally, it is something like the squat or the benchpress. Lots and lots of biceps tendinitis and golfer's elbow, tenor, tennis, elbow, all that stuff. So what I like to do for those cases, is really reduced the frequency of the main lifts, so the number of times per week that you're exposed to that main lift, and especially if it's, if it's something like squat, so whenever I squat, My shoulder hurts, but nothing else does. We're definitely going to reduce the frequency of that per week. And if you're I, usually we'll go about half. So if you're squatting three times a week, we'll reduce that to one and a half times per week.

Philip Pape 44:54

Same intensity, same rep set of reps.

Dustin Lambert 44:57

Yep, same intensity same reps games. We He won't change the change the program at all. If I do change the program, it normally will be like a, we'll go from a three day program to a four day program, but we lift three days a week. Cool.

Philip Pape 45:13

All right. Yeah, no, that's good to know. Is you said golfers elbow that that's what I had before. What does that medial epicondylitis? Alright, and maybe tennis elbow, some people get on the outside shoulder issues? Are those pretty common?

Dustin Lambert 45:27

Yep, the shoulder issues are very common. So some people will will have it in the front. And that's usually biceps tendinitis. And then if you're experiencing in the back, that can often be a rotator cuff issue.

Philip Pape 45:38

Yeah. Okay. So yeah, definitely working with someone but it sounds like you don't it's not you shouldn't just rest and stop altogether. I mean, maybe stress period. Yeah. Gotta keep use it. Right.

Dustin Lambert 45:48

Yeah, you should, you should not rest and stop. Yeah,

Philip Pape 45:51

it's good advice. Well, what about cardio? So we're flying through. I like that. So we're flying through a bunch of topics. This is cool. You know, cardio, sometimes contentious, you know, there's all sorts of extreme again, media, social media people, you know, what's his name? Omar Yusuf, you know, with, he has that company where he sells clothes and actually have some of his graphic tees. One of them is cardio kills, and it has like a, it has like a person's skeleton with their flesh coming off as they write run on a treadmill. Yeah, you know, the alluding to like the interference effect, which we I think we know is a little bit less terrible than we thought it was. So there's the different types of cardio, there's walking, there's high intensity, there's low and medium intensity, how much to do whether it interferes with lifting, whether you adapt to it, you know, things like that. So how does cardio what what is your general philosophy for how people should treat cardio if their preference is building muscle and size? And strength?

Dustin Lambert 46:48

Yeah, so my, my philosophy is that, you need to just do your damn cardio. So how much of what is going to depend on the person? So I know that when I was a big fat powerlifter, I really, I really didn't want to do much cardio. I didn't, I didn't even do a whole lot of walking. Yeah. So but you know, if we're all in this to improve our health. And a little bit of cardio is not going to decrease that. I also noticed that with myself and with my clients, your lifting performance doesn't suffer, as long as you're not going overboard with stuff. So I like your your recommendation, which is half the amount of time of lifting for cardio. I think that's pretty good.

Philip Pape 47:44

For Mike Matthews, by the way,

Dustin Lambert 47:46

did you okay, it sounded familiar. I was like, that's good. I think I've heard it, but that's good. I like it. Yeah, so half the amount of time we're lifting. And if you're gonna do something high intensity, so I have had clients who really enjoy boot camp stuff, you know, we might, we might even bring that down to a quarter of the time of lifting. Because that, you know, why to it too much high intensity stuff is gonna wipe you out. But I think if you're just walking, I really, really enjoy walking. Or you're doing some zone to training, which is like you're on the elliptical or the treadmill or a bike or something. And you're working at a pace where you can hold a conversation the entire time, not as easily as we are here. But you wouldn't, you wouldn't struggle to have a conversation. I think it's perfectly fine.

Philip Pape 48:34

Oh, that's what we should be doing is walking into

Dustin Lambert 48:36

treadmills and walking on a treadmill. Yes, yes.

Philip Pape 48:40

I'm probably a little behind right now. Cool. All right. So it's all it's all very reasonable stuff. I mean, we're basically aligned on all this stuff. And I'm glad that listeners is getting the reinforcement of these. These principles. A lot of it is just it's like you said, just do your cardio, meaning we don't have to live in extremes. Or think that one thing is going to just totally destroy something else. Like listen to your body. Do the things you enjoy. If you like to play sports, play sports, you're trying to be healthy if you have a very, very specific goal. Sure, you may have to like compromise and make trade offs but we're talking general health. So speaking of that, like wearables come into that conversation as well. I'm a techie I have an Apple Watch, I have an aura ring. And I do like them for for steps and heart rate. And that's pretty much it. Plus all the other fun stuff. So Fitbit Apple Watch ordering all those. How can people get the most out of those in your opinion.

Dustin Lambert 49:32

He also the way to utilize wearable trackers is not to rely on the precision of them. So there's a difference between precision and accuracy. So the precision is how close to the actual number of steps they're able to calculate for the day and then the accuracy is how often or how close of a repeatable measure they can get. So they may wearable trackers are just not that precise. I do a lot of testing for my clients. And I wear a bunch of different stuff. So I have an Apple Watch, that is pretty much all the time. And I base everything else off of the Apple Watch, because that seems to be kind of the most consistent thing. So I recently wore a Amazon Halo. And the amount of steps, the difference between the amount of steps per day between the two of them was almost 6000 steps. Okay, well, however, that being said, they were both very, very consistent, and being 6000 steps off per day. So if you're utilizing these to, to track your steps, or track your your calorie expenditure per workout, or maybe your heart rate or anything like that, don't rely on the actual number that this thing is given to you. But just like our weight is we're looking for trends over time. Sure. Good.

Philip Pape 51:02

Yeah. That's that's a good way to put it precision versus accuracy. I've seen the same when it comes to like body fat percentage, you really can't rely on any of those devices. Yeah. Yeah, but the trend is not bad if you do it repeatedly over time at the same conditions. Yeah.

Dustin Lambert 51:19

Even DEXA. Yeah, even other than MRI, or saw, autopsy. Everything is wrong.

Philip Pape 51:29

It's true. It's true. People need to know that. And especially they need to know it, because I don't want you. I don't want you getting super excited when that data says something. And conversely, super depressed when it says something when both could be completely wrong.

Dustin Lambert 51:42

Yeah. Oh, no, on the Amazon Halo, so the app that that it comes with actually has a really, really good body fat estimator. So it actually uses the camera on your phone, and you stand in front of cameras, he set it up on a tripod or on the table or something. And it will actually take pictures of you front side back and give you an estimate of your body fat score. And it seems to be you know, pretty close to even the Navy standard, or even body calipers. It's really, really accurate. Wow,

Philip Pape 52:17

I could see why that might be when you use that high resolution camera combined with AI, maybe you could see those same measurements you'd be taking with, with with tape. But But wow, that's cool. I didn't know that. I'm gonna look at it. That's pretty cool.

Dustin Lambert 52:31

That's that's the one thing I like about it everything else? Because it

Philip Pape 52:35

doesn't require the halo though, because it almost sounds like you just do that with a camera and feed it into their software somehow.

Dustin Lambert 52:40

Yeah, he could probably just download the app and just do it with the camera.

Philip Pape 52:44

I don't know what it requires the halo. I'm gonna look into that. Man. That could be a cool tool. Yeah,

Dustin Lambert 52:48

it's very cool. I stopped taping myself. Okay,

Philip Pape 52:51

okay, that could be a game changer, man. Thanks. That's good. Hey, thank you, selfishly to me. A bunch of people aren't listening to this, but people listening to it. You're gonna love it, too. So, Joe, we I know we have a couple minutes left. I do have a hard stop at three. You may as well. But the AI stuff. I mean, what's your take on that? You know that there's a lot of discussions going on about are we going to stop thinking, you know, when we use these things, it's just going to do all our workforce. Like what's your take on how do we how we use things like chat GBT and Bing and Bard and all this stuff.

Dustin Lambert 53:23

Yeah. So right now I'm loving chat, GBT, I think a lot of the information that it's given me is is sound and is actually it's helping me bypass the normal channels where people would usually go to get information on nutrition and health and all that stuff. And actually, I'm getting to the scientists and to the research. And you're not getting it secondhand from somebody at on. And so I think that people out there can really utilize chat GBT, if you're just starting out into this, and you are kind of listening to a lot of different takes on stuff like the saturated fat. Just start asking the question, anytime somebody makes a claim of something. Just ask, is that true? And you can go to Chad GPT, you can pose a question. And a lot of the answers that I get from Chechi Beatty are very, very good. They're not black and white, yes or no, they have a lot of nuance to them. You can also ask it to cite your sources. So you can go and look for yourself. Maybe you find something on a topic that's very long, maybe you find a study, you can actually click the web address, copy the web address, posted into the chat GBT bar and ask it to summarize this for you. And it does, it does a fairly decent job at summaries. It will tend to summarize one aspect instead of the whole thing that totality of it. So people have to keep that in mind. And you can

Philip Pape 54:53

tell it to do it like Mr. T.

Dustin Lambert 54:55

You can tell to do like Mr. T or Snoop Dogg

Philip Pape 55:00

It's pretty cool. Yeah, I um, listen, I mean, when it comes to technology and tools, I'm a techie always have been with an engineering background and technology is always going to lead to amazing new things and terrible new things. It's just always will, right. And so the good in the world and those of us who want to do good and you know and make an impact, we can try to leverage those to the best of our ability to maximize that. I agree. So, okay, I want to ask you this. I ask all guests, if you've been listening my show at all, I think you know, what questions is coming was coming? What question did you wish I had asked, and what is your answer?

Dustin Lambert 55:36

Who played the best Batman and why is it Ben Affleck?

Philip Pape 55:40

Very specific question. That's a leading question, though. It's a leading question. Wow. Because my wife would disagree. She would say it's who was from his Michael Keaton was the original in the early 90s.

Dustin Lambert 55:51

So yes, but that is a different question. Who is Batman? Michael Keaton, as is Batman, especially, who plays the best Batman who's Batman was the best. I think it's Ben Affleck. Because that is the Batman that is closely more closely related to the DC comic than anything else. That's the Batman who's dropping people off of roofs, and changing them up to the radiator and, you know, burning them with an iron in the shape of a bat to interrogate them to get information. So I really liked his Batman. But yeah, like,

Philip Pape 56:24

what about Christian bill? Christian is pretty brutal.

Dustin Lambert 56:27

His his was good. I mean, I like it, but I feel like his Batman is more of a Robin, not Batman, because it's kind of like it's kind of acrobatic, and he's a little bit on the smaller side. Ben Affleck is a big dude. Yeah, and so like, you know, the things that would a real Batman would have to like, he'd have to be that big. You know what I mean? You know, speaking

Philip Pape 56:50

of big what's, what's the show they made one season is reacher, the new reacher that came out last year. Yeah, that guy's physique. Yeah. Impressive. I mean, he's, I think he's naturally kind of the proportion seem natural to me. And he says he is but you know how these things go, right. Yeah. It policies like six, four. So that helps. Yeah, that's all are you does? I'm 510 510. All right. So we're about the same. We're about the same height. I have a little ways to go on the side. So all right, cool. Great, man. So where can listeners learn more about you and your work?

Dustin Lambert 57:21

Yeah, so I am basically only on Facebook because I am just not a big social media person. So they can find me there and message me and they have any questions. I'm happy to answer

Philip Pape 57:34

that your personal profile doesn't Yes. We'll link that in the show notes. And awesome as well. This has been a fun conversation. We covered a lot of different topics and you're awesome, you know, your expertise shine through the listener, I'm sure he's gonna get a ton of value from what you just heard me have to listen to it again with everything we covered. So thank you again for coming on the show. Yeah, thanks for having me. If you've been inspired by today's interview, and are ready to take action and build momentum on your health and fitness journey, just schedule a free 30 minute nutrition momentum. Call with me using the link in my show notes. I promise not to sell or pitch you on anything, but I will help you gain some perspective and guidance so we can get you on the right track toward looking and feeling your best

Philip Pape 5/16/23 Philip Pape 5/16/23

Ep 70: Tailor Your Physique for Aesthetics, Fat Loss, Performance, and Health with Cody McBroom

Today, I’m super excited to have Cody McBroom on as my guest to share his expertise, his philosophy, and some inside strategies with us today for looking like you lift. Cody and I will discuss how to use data to reach your goals more efficiently, how to balance training for aesthetics and performance to improve your body composition, and how to overcome plateaus and obstacles along the way. We’ll also get into Cody’s coaching and podcasting experience and how to maintain a balanced life.

Cody McBroom is a Trainer, Sports Performance Specialist, and Sports Nutritionist (CPT, PES, CISSN, MNU, PN2) and the owner of Tailored Coaching Method, a world-renowned online fitness and nutrition coaching company.

I learned about him through his Tailored Life Podcast, which I highly recommend following and personally listen to every episode, and my impression of Cody is that he is passionate about strength training and nutrition science and believes in using individualized and flexible approaches to help his clients get the best results possible.

Over the last 12 years, he’s worked with everyone from bikini and physique competitors to TV show actors and numerous WWE stars, but most of all he’s worked with everyday people just like you (and him), helping them FINALLY look like they actually lift.

__________
Book a FREE 30-minute call with Philip here.
__________

Today you’ll learn all about:
[2:21] Cody's transformation story
[8:35] Having true power and clarity in your life starts with physical mastery
[14:33] If you're not tracking, you're guessing
[20:55] The Tailored Trainer App
[26:04] Balancing health, performance, and longevity goals
[32:14] Hormonal and metabolic adaptation and weight regulation
[36:37] Strategies for breaking through plateaus
[45:36] When and how to implement cardio into your training
[47:42] Avoiding autoregulation against weight loss
[49:48] Most challenging case Cody has worked with
[55:01] How has podcasting made Cody a better coach
[58:00] What he is working on now
[1:01:40] Where can you learn more about Cody
[1:02:20] Outro

Episode resources:

Cody’s website: https://tailoredcoachingmethod.com/
Cody's IG: @codymcbroom
The Tailored Trainer app: https://apple.co/3nYujMv

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Transcript

Cody McBroom 00:00

in different periods of my life, there's different things I'm tracking and when I track I'm literally guaranteed to be successful. And the reason I'm so common about that is because if I'm not moving towards the success I want, I at least have the numbers to tell me why and then I can adjust them so that I begin to move towards the success I want.

Philip Pape 00:21

Cody McBroom 02:03

Oh Lee said, Man, that was great. That was the best intro I've ever had somebody do for me, man. Thank you. That's awesome.

Philip Pape 02:10

And I appreciate that it's a high standard, I really appreciate that it's well deserved. Again, I listen to your stuff, and the listeners gonna gain a lot of value from this. So let's just dive in. We all have transformation stories. So So tell us yours. How did you go from being what you call a bit beyond chubby as a kid to competing in a bodybuilding show? And coaching celebrities and everyday people and then eventually creating the tailored coaching method?

Cody McBroom 02:36

Yeah, man. It's pretty crazy. It's a it's a wild, wild journey because I was always kind of like the black sheep of the family just in the sense of, you know, my dad he owned, he moved out and owned. I don't know how this work because he wasn't even 18 yet. He moved out at 17 and already ran a karate studio. So he ran a Korean karate studio with a black belt. He was doing street competitions. He was in magazines. He was very fit. And my mom was a gymnast and backpacker just outdoors person extremely fit her dad was an Olympic kayaker Olympic. He did the rings and the Olympics do so dude was jacked. My brother just naturally stay lean. He could just eat whatever and stay lean played soccer and stuff like that. And I was just a chubby kid. You know, I think looking back, it's funny because I'm different than a lot of people my family in many ways, just my personality type my attitude, like I love my family to death, but I'm definitely I stand out. And one of the reasons was as well because I was just always just a heavier kid. And the more I look back at it and kind of have studied genetics and all that stuff was definitely epigenetics. You know, at the end of the day, I wasn't a couch potato actually, my brother played video games a lot, but I was always outside. I was always playing I was always doing stuff. But I didn't eat the best when I was a kid and that ultimately resulted into it. So from being a baby, I was a big baby all the way to high school. I was just always heavier. In high school, I started playing soccer and skateboarding, snowboarding, do a little bit more I sort of lose a little bit way kind of hit a growth spurt leaned out a little bit. And then I tore my meniscus sophomore year in soccer, gained some weight after that came back junior year kind of recovered, senior year tore my ACL. And so in the same knee so like to injuries back to back kind of shot down the idea of going to my original plan was go to junior college and then get and then transfer to university play soccer. That was like my hopes that got shut down. So I ended up going to community college, I was overweight. I graduated at 17 years old, so I'm a little bit younger for my class. And so there was man I was 18 years old to knee injuries already surgery heavier than I've ever been. I'm five nine I think I got up to like about 210 But you know, not huge, but I will say this too at that point. I later really had not lifted a weight before. Like I wasn't the high school kid and weights cost, right? I did not lift like period if you're fat, and I just remember being like, man, like I have friends at college playing ball, I'm just kind of back home, going to school because my dad told me to go to community college, do business, study business one on one or whatever. I was just overweight, I was unhappy. I was sweating too often, I had no energy at a young age I was you know, partying too much stuff like that. And I just I don't know, I just had this lightbulb moment, one day, I will, like looked in the mirror. After getting a shower, I was butt naked, just look to myself and was like, Dude, you're pathetic. This like, not to shame yourself or make it you know, too negative. But I literally was like, Man, this is just unacceptable, dude, you got to make a change. So I took ownership of it made a big shift. And when I made that shift, I just man, I just literally went all in and I just completely transformed my body. Starting with everything that doesn't work, you know, just trying it all. And there was definitely some ups and downs with losing and gaining losing and gaining but eventually I found content and like tea nation and bodybuilding.com forums and started like reading from other people and learning from them. And I fell in love with blogs and content and writing and fitness books. Which led me to just digging deeper and deeper. I eventually changed my degree in school to the fitness program at the College, the junior college. My parents both said no at the time, because I was still overweight and didn't really know what I'm doing. But I forged my dad signature did it anyway, change my degree did that he found out later on, I ended up getting an internship at a strength gym in Seattle called vigor ground and just learned a ton man, it was like, it was just really cool. Like I just met a lot of cool people at a young age, I got into industry at 18 years old. And so I started with a really good foundation and dove headfirst and there was never a point where I was like, maybe I'll do this, maybe I'll do something else. It was like this is all I have, this is all I'll do, this is the only thing I want. And I never had a plan B. So I lost 40 to 50 pounds myself. And then that transformation went from losing 4050 pounds of fat to realize that now I'm just skinny, and I need to put on muscle. So then I started diving into building muscle. And you know, I was training people. And then I did a bodybuilding show which got me into nutrition. And then that led me to getting becoming a nutrition coach. And then you certify multiple times with that. And then eventually I became a sports nutritionist and I kind of went further with my credentials and certificates and long story short man I just kept just kept going, just kept going and going and go on until eventually I started my company, which is what we're at now.

Philip Pape 07:29

Yeah, for sure, man. I mean, your your passion and energy shines through that you said you went all in at a pretty early age. And I could relate to so much of your story, the difference being that it took me like 40 years before I could get to that point of figuring out but I'm also five nine and I understand what being too tenant five nine without any muscle is like exactly that saying that you are unhappy sweating, even at that young age. And then even just the consuming content, because there's so much misinformation and we're in a golden age right now, for better or worse. I say for better. I'm an optimist, that there's so much great information if you can find it. And guys like you, Cody and everyone I try to steer people to the books and podcasts are a fantastic, fantastic way to learn and grow today. So I love that story. And then you just kept going and going and going and building and people listening to this like check out Cody stuff because it's not just about fitness hear it's about it's about. It's about the hard work. It's about learning growing and and doing the heavy lifting. And there's a lot of business principles you talk about and a lot of, you know, you reference, you know, Socrates and stoicism, things like that in your stuff. So I appreciate all of that. Yeah, so yeah, so speaking of the, like the physical mastery, right, you've written I think there's only a website, that having true power and clarity in your life starts with your body physically. I agree with this 100%. But explain your thinking behind that premise.

Cody McBroom 08:50

Yeah, so this is, I used to say actually made shirts for clients way back years ago that said, your body is the fastest path to power. Or maybe the shirt just said your body is the path to power because it was big on the back. But like, that's always been kind of something in the back of my mind. Because I did not do good in school. I wasn't a philosophical person I didn't read I wasn't an intellect until I found fitness and I didn't. Fitness in the transformation I made physically it created a level of self mastery in so many other areas. Like it's what taught me discipline is what gave me grit and willpower and self control. It's what taught me purpose and meaning in life. It's what gave me more motivation to push. It's what allowed me to create more self belief and eliminate self doubt because I kept proving to myself what I could do and what I was capable of. It gave me more confidence, which gave me the ability to take action and take more risks in life, which led to more success like it just it opened up so many doors for me, and I've you know, I think some people will hear that and if you're a fitness professional, it might seem as if or if you're not a fitness professional, you might think that that only applies to fitness professionals because yeah, It opened up all those doors for me, because I'm a coach because I'm an industry. But I kept having all these clients experiencing the same things like they had better marriages, they found the girl or found the guy, or they got a raise at the job, they were able to start waking up early and meditating and journaling, they started doing other things that they wanted to do, because they finally had the energy, the confidence, the fitness, the everything, you know, the body image that they wanted, in their mind, like everything. And so I've always been that way. And once I went through a program years ago, called Wake Up Warrior, I'm not a part of it anymore. And truthfully, I like what they do is great, and all its things have changed for sure. Just I mean, what the way of the world today, everything kind of shifts and just gets kind of like a lot of stuff gets pretty extreme. And you know, once something small gets so large, it loses some of the meaning behind it when it started. So I use I say Wake Up Warrior carefully, because I just know that things are more polarizing today, you know, anyway, they had this thing called core four and core four stood for body being balanced business and body was your body physically, being was yourself spiritually, mentally, emotionally, whether that meant like your religious faith, or what you believe you believe in universal God, or it's just like your mindset, conference, whatever, it's just you personal development, right? balances your relationships. So if you have a spouse, your spouse, kids, whatever, or your family, your friends, just other people, and the business is your career, your finances, investments, whatever. And it taught me a lot about life, because those things are always connected. You know, like, the way I always looked at it. And I have some, I mean, I have a lot of tattoos now, but I have some tattoos that kind of like, represent this idea or the story of life. And it's this idea that, you know, you kind of have this quote unquote, kingdom, if you will, and your kingdom is your body, your life, your story. And it's standing on four pillars, and that's body being balanced business. It's these four aspects, those four aspects are the things we constantly think about the things that we constantly set goals for, they're the things that we are jealous of other people, when they have something that we want, it almost always fits into those categories. You know, when we think about goals we want to achieve in life, it's in those categories. When we think about a partner we want in life, and we want to see if they have the same mindset or or they want the same things out of life, so on and so forth. It's in those categories. And so they're all connected, and if one crumbles, the Kingdom falls, right. So if I'm crushing in business, I'm shredded, like very confident, but my relationship sucks, I promise it's only a matter of time before the rest of the ship falls apart, right. And if you have a great relationship, but your job is causing a lot of stress, or your you get laid off, or anything that's gonna cause stress elsewhere, if you're super out of shape, unconfident, unhealthy, always getting sick, that's gonna bleed into others, too. So there has to be this way to like, let them all survive and thrive really, right. And what I found was that they always had to go in that order body being balanced business, which meant you take care of yourself physically, then you take care of yourself Self mentally, emotionally and spiritually, then you take care of the ones around you. And the business, the career, the passion, the finances, it figures itself out, once those do, right. And so your body is the fastest path to power and all those. It's kind of the idea.

Philip Pape 13:10

Yeah, man. Yeah, there's so many themes like that in life, when you think of health, wealth, relationships, spirituality, right, or the virtuous cycle, or the fact that, you know, one thing leads to another and placing the body first if you think about it, that's that's our connection with the earth with people with the things we touch the things that we do. And if that doesn't exist, or in any healthy state, you can't do all the other things. So absolutely love that Cody. So body being balanced and business. It also reminds the idea of like, the self worth self worth, that you get from improving your body physically, then leads to the self confidence and now gives you the the ability to help somebody it's like in the airplane, you know, you have to put the put the mask on you before you help your kid, you know. Yeah, good stuff. So getting DPO coding as I expected.

Cody McBroom 13:57

Yeah. Yeah, that's, that's exactly it, man. You got to take care of yourself before before any of those other things kind of work themselves out. And I think that, it just, it became very obvious for me, and I've kind of used that. I mean, I went through a week of worry when I was like 20 years old. So it's been like a decade of me just keeping that in the back of my mind and letting that be my Northstar to direct me through the actions I take in life. And it's been it's been a game changer.

Philip Pape 14:21

Yeah. And honestly, who would listen to you or follow you if you hadn't gone through that yourself? Right? If you had mastered it, that's not like your ability to impact others is springs from that. Alright, so let's get a little bit more, more practical for a second here. On your podcast, you talk a lot about using data measuring, tracking, using feedback. And actually just today, perfect timing you posted on your IG account. If you're not tracking you're guessing, and nobody guesses their way to a great body. So this speaks to me because I have an engineering background engineering mind I think of like KPIs and measures and outcomes and I love to coach with my clients and that approach to people talk about tracking as being annoying or inconvenient. But I always say, Well, how inconvenient it is to not know what's going on and that never have results compared to the minor inconvenience of tracking. So what would you say differentiates that approach, which I think is pretty core to how you do things versus other methods? And then how that leads to better results?

Cody McBroom 15:15

Well, you know, I think that it kind of depends on what other methods we're looking at. Because to say that Trump would never say, you know, and it depends, if we're just specifically talking about tracking macros, a lot of people read that, and that's what they assume I'm talking about, which for the most part, it definitely is, it falls in that category. But if you are trying to reach a weight loss goal, you better be tracking your weight, whether you're tracking macros or not. If you want to reach a new business goal, you better be tracking KPIs and sales and leads and conversions. Yeah, there's a lot to it, you know, if you are recording a podcast like this one, and you want to be successful with it, where are your downloads at? How many episodes a week you're doing, where's your demographic? Where your listeners, what time? Are they airing, like there's a lot to it. So growth in anything requires metrics. And that's the big point, right? You can't guess yourself to a great or a great result or successful anything, really. And so the nice thing about macros specifically is that it does take that guesswork out of it. And it allows us to be sure that we're heading in the right direction. Now, everybody knows that. There's more than one way to skin a cat, you can create a deficit in many ways. And a deficit is ultimately what leads to fat loss. So, of course, as you can imagine, I get people that comment on that. And they're like, Well, what about this? What about this? And it's like, hey, is there a deficit being created? Yes. Okay. At first, you might be able to do that without tracking. But what happens when you plateau? How do you create a bigger deficit without tracking something, even if you are falling an old school meal plan have zero idea of what you are eating on a caloric or a macro basis within the day, you have to measure your food to know how much you're eating so that you can adjust that food because if you're eating a cup of oatmeal, you got to make it a half cup when you plateau to drop carbs, therefore calories and therefore create a bigger deficit, to lose more weight and break through the plateau. So the big thing is like, it's metrics are our GPS to success. And if we're being intuitive, we're guessing and intuition only gets us I wouldn't even say that I wasn't saying intuition only gets us to success after we've done it multiple times. But even then, intuition only allows us to sustain or maintain the success we've already achieved. Because if you are able to, you know, we talked about like Eric Helms and stuff before we started going, he he did a full bodybuilding prep, I don't think he tracked his macros the whole time. I heard him say, and maybe he did at the very end or something like that. And that takes a lot of experience to be able to do, especially a bodybuilding prep, however, I don't think you can say that he was eating intuitively, you know, we might say that because it's just easier to explain. If you say eating intuitively, nowadays, we just know that he wasn't tracking. But realistically, he was being very intentional. And in his mind, he knows how much he's eating. That's the point is he can do it without macros, because he knows the macros in his head.

Philip Pape 17:51

Yeah, he's turned himself into a food blogger in his Exactly.

Cody McBroom 17:53

So like, even at that point, you still have metrics. So I think my big thing is, and I'm a very data driven guy, too, is I look at metrics with everything man, I look at metrics for, even if it's simple, like habits and more tracking, right, I want to track my habits, I want to track my scores, I want to cross things off the To Do lists, I want to track my weight, I want to track my macros, I want to track my biofeedback, my happiness score, HRV energy, like, not all of these things all the time every day, but in different periods of my life, there's different things I'm tracking. And when I track, I'm literally guaranteed to be successful. And the reason I'm so common about that is because if I'm not moving towards the success, I want, I at least have the numbers to tell me why. And then I can adjust them so that I begin to move towards the success I want.

Philip Pape 18:41

Yeah, let's Yeah, no, it makes total sense. Let's repeat that. Right? When you track you're guaranteed to be successful. Because you have two options. Either you take that data and adjust or you take that data and deliberately not adjust. And then either way, it's in your control. So I think that's great for people to hear.

Cody McBroom 18:57

Yeah, yeah. And I think that's the big thing, right? Is the control. Like if you're if you're, if you're not tracking stuff, you're not controlling whatever it is you're after. So it's, I mean, people always laugh when I make ridiculous analogies, but it's if you're driving a car and there's no gas meter and you're like I know about when my tank is empty, screw that like you're good luck you know, it's it's idiotic. If you want to save money to do something, and you're like, I'm just going to intuitively save or I don't need a savings account. I don't need a budget. It's just dumb. It is literally dumb and it's hot people people constantly try to like shit on tracking macros as if it's this obsessive or OCD and the reality is it can be but so can paleo so can carnivore so can training so can bodybuilding. So can budgeting so can advertising so can business so can marriage. So can religion. Anything can become neurotic, overwhelm overwhelming too much if you let it get there. So it's not about the modality it's about the person utilizing the modality and how they're using that. Right so if you are that type of person, you need to be coached specifically, or you need to choose a different route that is less likely to cause that behavior. But I do believe if you go into it with the right education and the right mindset, it's never going to cause that for you. It's just going to give you a shot plan to getting where you want to be.

Philip Pape 20:14

Yeah, yeah, I like that. And if if something is a barrier to your tracking, look at what it is right? Like, if I get a lot of clients who say, Well, I tried food logging, but it was just really tedious. They said, Well, what app we're using x, okay, let's try Why all of a sudden, that was the barrier to their ability to track and it's not really about the tracking, right. It's about the method, the process, the tools, the things. I mean, at this point, having done just what you said, I didn't track my whole life. And then three or four years ago, when I started my own transformation, I did it thinking this is gonna be tough. You know, within a few weeks, you get used to it. They're like, Man, this just makes everything easier. This makes everything else easier, because I have data, you know, and I know what the heck I'm doing. So we keep reiterating that for folks, because it really does make a difference. So then, I mean, you have an app, right? You The Tailored trainer, how much does that will tell us about the app? Like what makes it unique? And does it tie into this approach?

Cody McBroom 21:04

Yeah, so I don't know when this will air. So as we're recording this, the new app isn't live yet. So we have it's kind of funny, because I basically closed the doors to the the current app that we have. People who are in the app can use it as function, but I enabled people's ability to actually sign up. And the reason it does, because we're transitioning where I've been developing an app, because I use the third party, which is great. Like when you get started in the app world, there's no point in investing $100,000 in the app, and trying to figure it all out, because you don't know what you're getting into yet. You don't know if it's gonna work, I haven't tested it. So I went the route of like, Hey, I'm gonna, you know, start a membership kind of thing where people can buy programs for super cheap. And it's basically like, we did it so that the people who did nutrition coaching with us can find affordable programming. So they weren't doing dumb shit in the gym, they could actually have a good training program. But like having a random web portal with Excel sheets just isn't a business, you know. So once I was like, Oh, shit, people really liked this, and they're actually signing up, then I was like, Okay, let's go to true coach. And we'll like, figure out a way to manage that. And then it just got too busy, because there was too many people in there. And then we were trying to get them in and get them out and do all this stuff. And it just, it didn't work. And then I hired a company who is basically like a third party, they are the app company, and they white label for fitness people and was like, Oh, this is perfect, way cheaper, so expensive. But I can just use theirs. And then after a while you realize, like, there's so many things that I wish this app had because tech people created it, not fitness people. And so I decided to start investing in my own app. And so we should be done. Actually, technically, it'll be done this month, in April, as we're recording this and and then we're going into like beta mode, where we test it with some people and stuff to make sure all the kinks are out. And we're good. But the app itself is just strictly training programs. So we do a lot of coaching, where we there's a lot of data driven coaching for both training and nutrition, primarily nutrition with people. And then the app is like, basically your daily workouts. And there's only so many things that we can do inside this right, like so, when we're looking at training, and we're looking at tracking metrics, there's obviously progressive overload. So how many reps you do and how much weight are you lifting? Right? We need to track that. Because if you come to me, and you're like, I've been following this program for four weeks, I'm like, Oh, cool. How much weight have you added to XYZ lift? Like, I don't know, like, Well, do you know if it's working? Like, are you getting better? Like, I think so. And if you're a natural lifter, like, are you building muscle, I think I don't know, it's only been four weeks I like the only guaranteed way to know is to measure or to track your progress the gym because if your eight rep benchpress is going up, you're probably building some muscle, you know, a bigger muscle has that capability being a stronger muscle. So you got to be one of those. And you probably should be measuring too. But so the app obviously will allow us to track that it'll allow us to track our AR, which is reps and reserve. So basically, how far are you going how many leaving a tank, there's a lot of features and functions that we haven't fully committed to because we're in the development stage. So I'm not going to, you know, say what they are, because some of them will be there from the beginning. And some of them will be like features that we add as we go. But there's I mean, when it comes to training, I think the biggest thing is that you gotta be tracking your progress in the gym, you know, and if you're doing that alongside your body composition, measurements and weight and things like that, that's going to be the best way to ensure that you're actually making progress.

Philip Pape 24:26

Yeah, that's what it's all about. Yeah, no, I have some community members who wanted me to ask you about the app. And you know, I'm not a personal trainer and nutrition coach. So I always like to find, you know, really good trainers or people who have programs to point them to so it's good, good that we know that this will probably be coming out in a few weeks. So it'll be you know, yeah, for now.

Cody McBroom 24:45

Yeah. So we even we actually dropped a program for technically two programs for guys, two programs for girls. It's like a four day and a five day men 45 Day girls and train heroics. You can go to TrainerRoad comm just search my name. And I basically came out was something in there and just made it cheap, 12 week program, like, let me just make this cheap just so people have something to use until the app launches, because I can't fully commit to a date. It'll be out the summer, but I can't say exactly what day we're going to launch it because I don't want to, you know, I don't want to. But, yeah, but um, but that was gonna be epic. I'm excited about it, man, it's gonna be really cool to have my own app. And my goal is actually what you just said too, is to have trusted nutrition coaches have a resource as well that they can send their clients to that is an app that is it's all virtual. I mean, it's, it's, there's no coach in here. It's just, it has great programs written by me, it's done for you. You can track your metrics, you can see what you're doing. And it's cheap, super cheap. It'll be $29 a month, and it's like done for you.

Philip Pape 25:40

Yeah, love it, you love it. Because that's, I mean, as a coach and my clients, there's, there's a lot of frustration when it comes to tools, the you know, we live in a digital world. And even from a nutrition coaching side, there's, there's, there's no one thing that does everything you want, just like you I wish I could just leap forward in my business and like investing in my own custom app, I know the 100 things that it needs to do, and nothing does that. So you do your best to work around it. So alright, getting back into the lifting nutrition, since you brought that up, people do want to look and feel better. They also want to lift and perform like an athlete. Sometimes these goals are in conflict, right? And this is why we use periodization, both from a training side and from a nutrition side. So how do we do? How do we strike that balance? What's your philosophy, when we talk about someone comes in says, I want to optimize my body composition. But I also want to be the healthiest I want to live long and I want to perform.

Cody McBroom 26:30

Yeah, it's you know, everybody wants the perfect trifecta. I think it's absolutely possible as long as you're not living in any extreme. And I think that's the conversation has to be has educating them on the negatives or the downsides that come with going to any one extreme. So for example, I'll be competing in men's physique in October. So my prep prep hasn't really started yet, I got a solid month, maybe two at most of just trying to continue to put on a little size, stay at least that maintenance calories, keep my body healthy. And then once my prep start, it's all go right. Now if I have let's say 20 pounds of body fat to lose, to get to prep. For me personally, that first five is going to be healthy, I lose five pounds of fat, I'm gonna be healthier. After about five, I'm just getting to a point where I'm telling somebody like I can see my abs I'm already leaner than the average person. So this is the point is that when you break through, and get into that extreme range where you You're, you're so lean, that it's no longer functionally healthy. That's where she's me, there's downsides to it, right. And these downsides are essentially hormone dysfunction. So if you go too far, and extremes you're gonna have if you're a female, you might experience reds in the female try out where you know, you haven't been Rhea, maybe some bone loss issues, osteoporosis, things like that. Obviously, immune system crashes, cortisol levels gonna be chronically elevated, which can lead to more stress, typically, your thyroid hormones gonna get suppressed. If you start having a lack of T 3d T for conversion, which is your thyroid hormone, your metabolism is going to metabolically adapt, like that's part of it right? All this is really part of metabolic adaptation. For guys, testosterone is going to lower for women as well, but it's just not going to be nearly as big of a deal. And eventually, for women, the menstrual cycle can potentially stop happening because they take it too far. And their sex hormones continue to drop. US that only happens when you're getting like contest lean. But the point is, is that if you want like there's difference between getting lean and getting shredded, and I think that's where like this happy medium is, because for a lot of people getting leaner, so like let's take guys with testosterone, for example. You know, if we die, it, just ASAN is going to drop, but like if I put you in a calorie deficit, within days, your testosterone is going to drop, but it's suppressed because of the lack of intake of your food. It's not permanently suppressed. So if I give you a refeed day, boom, it's right back up, right. We're not reversing metabolic adaptation here with a refeed. But we're also not compromising testosterone by eating less calories for a few days. It's a short term response. Same reason why they say if you're gonna get your bloodwork done, do it fast in the morning after sleeping, don't go train or go eat because those things can cause a drop in testosterone numbers. It doesn't mean training lowers testosterone fact, it's the opposite. So it depends when you're reading it. But the point is, is that when we talk about like long term wise, the only way we're going to see a significant drop in testosterone for guys is if we take a diet too far or too aggressively, or we do it too frequently, right. And these are like I always call them the dieting dials. We have intensity, frequency, and duration. If you diet for too long, that long term diet fatigue is going to stimulate long term hormonal adaptations like cortisol being too high. So the stress hormone, testosterone being too low in section one for guys. If you go too aggressive at the diet, you might experience those if you diet too often you're going to experience those so we kind of have to balance these three dials or meters in order to find this happy medium because for a guy who has 40 pounds of body fat to lose, the more body fat you lose the healthier your testosterone is gonna get because that body fat is causing lower testosterone levels. However, if you go, if you lose 60 pounds, when you only had 40 lose, because you're gonna step on stage, once you get past that 40. Now, you're on the other end of it, you're getting leaner and leaner, and it's getting lower and lower. So there's this happy medium. And in, you know, as far as performance goes, it's very similar. It's just that if we have a lower energy intake, because our we're in a deficit, obviously, our performance is going to take a hit, if we are not taking as much calories, it's gonna be harder to maintain muscle, which makes it harder to train. It's it's commonplace, you know, for sure. So it's kind of balancing these things, you know, I think that the smartest thing to do is periodized them so that you can focus mainly on one thing at a time. And then for everyday individuals who have a considerable amount of body fat to lose, which I would say is, you know, 20 plus pounds of just pure body fat to lose. I see no reason why they can't consistently get healthier, build muscle get stronger while losing body fat. Yep, and you know, that's recomp and maybe say recomp, impossible, but it's really not. They see it all the time in research, especially if you have a lot of fat to lose, or you're brand new to lifting. But even somebody who's just hasn't been serious about it for a while, you could possibly return to it. Yeah, yeah, I see it all the time. So yeah, there's definitely a happy medium, I think it's just when you take it any, any which way to extremes, like if you want to be the healthiest person that lives the longest, you're not setting yourself up to get the most jacked or the most ready to perform the best. If you want to be the strongest powerlifter, you're also not gonna be the most shredded or most healthy. So like, You got to find out where the happy medium is for you. And if you want to take it to an extreme everyone smile, more power to you.

Philip Pape 31:34

Hey, this is Philip. And I hope you're enjoying this episode of Wits & Weights. If you're finding value in the content and want to stay up to date with all our latest episodes, be sure to hit the Follow button on your favorite podcast platform. By following you'll get notified whenever a new episode comes out. And you won't miss out on knowledge and strategies to level up your health and fitness. All right, let's get back to the episode. Yeah, I'm always wondering about that. Because you know, four or five years ago, I'd never would have thought I could I could even see muscle definition, let alone go to an extreme. And I haven't done anything like what you've done to tour the show, but I'm very keenly interested in potentially doing it. So you know, people are listening, you talked about having extra weight to lose as kind of a starting place. Or if you're D trained, I see it as like, you come down into that that range, that healthy range where you could potentially live there for the rest of your life but like you said, then you can period eyes it to get down lean, maybe going into the the seasons, like into the summer season where you go to the beach, maybe bulk during the winter up here, you know, we're all in our jackets, and you know, it's cold, eat a lot of food, and then push the extremes. So speaking of that, you know, you talked I think recently on your podcast about how you're carrying like, I don't know 10 1015 pounds more something like that from four years ago to now for similar level of leanness for your show, something like that. I think it was like 10 pounds. What is the well in terms of these hormonal and metabolic adaptations you talked about with reproductive hormones and thyroid and everything else? Is the depression level? Is the adaptive adaptation The same for the same amount of weight. Same amount of body fat Cody, if you're heavier versus if you're lighter. Do you know what I'm trying to say? Like now that you've got more weight on your body? You don't have to go to a lower weight, but your body fat percentage is still gonna get in the same range. Is it the same adaptation?

Cody McBroom 33:19

It's a really good question. I don't think I don't think we know because I don't think there's been research they would have to do. Let's say they would have to follow up with participants in a med, who were in a metabolic adaptation study, and then do another study after they've done a successful gaining phase for a year. You know what I mean? Like it would be very difficult, really cool. I would love to see that. Yeah. I do have some thoughts on it, though. I think that number one, the thing we have to remember is the primary driver that we know of for metabolic adaptation is weight regulation. Now body fat regulation. And I say that lightly because there are a lot of hormonal adaptations that are caused by body fat. So there's plenty of times where people you know what I mean, if you're too lean, it's your body fat levels that are causing amenorrhea or extreme, you know, with women in extreme cases or men, testosterone, if your diet is super low and saturated fat or you're extremely lean and don't have much body fat, your body, your testosterone levels are going to take a hit. So there's definitely something there. But if we look at like early stages, especially of metabolic adaptation, it's kind of like the whole thermostat thing and it's based on your weight. This is why they James Krieger did that case study research study, where he took somebody through a bodybuilding prep and every pound he lost, he added that weight back onto a weight vest and the guy wore like this basic. It's like a weighted shirt. And so he lose a pound he had a pound and he lives in he had to wear it to work. Thankfully he owned a gym so people don't think it's too crazy. But you would wear it to the gym. He'd wear it while you train, he'd wear it to the score store. If you think about it, like I'm wearing a shirt and then you know next week I check in with my coach. I'm down a pound and I just put a little pound on it. It's really not that big. do after you lose 30 pounds for PrEP, I'm sure it's weighing you down, but you acclimate to it kind of like the whole like Mila with a calf on his back, you know, progressive overload. So they saw that D diminished metabolic adaptation, he was able to diet on way more calories. And it made it tricky on the reverse diet, obviously, because part of the problem is, is that you kind of can trick your body into getting there, from a metabolic perspective, meaning your maintenance calories. However, if you're that lean, you're still going to experience those negative hormonal adaptations. The problem with that is that if you didn't have to diet super low, you don't really have to bring your calories have super high after the show. But if your hormones are suppressed, because your body fat levels, we got shredded, but your calories really high. Where do you go? You know, it's like, that's right, you need that bump up? Yeah, yeah. So it can be tough, because you got to put the body fat back on after show to recoup some of those hormones. Now, for a normal person, that'd be great. Because they don't want to put body fat back on. However, they also don't want to wear away, I guess you

Philip Pape 35:58

could just stop moving all together, right?

Cody McBroom 36:01

So, but it just kind of goes to show it's an interesting case study, because it kind of tells us like, okay, like weight is the primary driver of this Metabolic adaptation. And maybe body fat levels on your body are the primary driver for hormonal adaptations, especially the sex hormone specifically. So, you know, where does this leave somebody like myself, who has put on a lot of muscle over the years after doing a show and stuff like that? I don't know. Because I think that equally, you know, I could say, Yeah, I'm probably going to be better off maybe able to diet, on less calories, so on and so forth. But on my body mass is bigger, so it's not going to feel any different. You know, what 1500 calories felt like to me when I was 20 pounds lighter is what 2000 calories gonna feel like to me now that I'm 20 pounds heavier. So it's, it's very hard to say yes, it's all relative.

Philip Pape 36:48

Yeah, I was just curious, ya know, it just popped into my head. Like, I nerd out on this stuff. And hopefully, you know, hopefully, I don't lose a listener. I know they don't they they stick they stick through with these conversations, because I love this stuff. So speaking of so metabolic adaptation, then leads to the discussion of plateaus as well, right? Because you talked about tracking data, we talk about macros, we're tracking all that you hit a plateau, likely due to adaptation and other things. Having that data lets us push through it. At least that's part of it. And it goes both directions, right. So when you're gaining, you might think you're a hard gainer. We know we know that some evidence shows that hard gainers, they burn like half the half the amount of extra calories that they start eating and so they kind of have to keep cake keeping up with it. What are your some some of your favorite strategies then for breaking through all of these kinds of plateaus?

Cody McBroom 37:36

Yeah, you know, it's before I say what a good strategy would be I just I do you want to preface like the tracking thing is it goes so much beyond macros, because you know, if we're one of the biggest will be the word one of the biggest things essentially, that happens during metabolic adaptation is your meat drops off your knees, your non exercise Activity Thermogenesis like that, how much you step, how much you stand, how much you walk, me moving my hands while I talk to you. That's all neat. It's not an exercise. I'm not intentionally doing it, but it's happening, and it's burning calories. So that drops off a lot. And then we have to look at that and go, how much of that can we even control? Really just steps? I mean, obviously, I'm not going to like, okay, like, rewatch this and see how much I move my hands and how many times I blink and fidget and then try to replicate that or as I die, like, it's not gonna happen.

Philip Pape 38:21

And you're also gonna add muscle overnight, because that's the only other way Yeah, exactly. Yeah. So

Cody McBroom 38:25

if we know that steps are the only thing that we can control, we do have to try to track those. And that's going to help a lot, too. So when we look at this, and this is this is the same reason why if you look at a bodybuilders diet, and it's they just eat the same thing every fucking day. And the reason is because it controls variables. So if they know for sure, even if they're inaccurately tracking it, if they eat same thing, every single day, when they drop 25 grams of carbs, they know they're dropping the same amount, and it's from a control variable. So it's not sustainable long term, but during a diet phase, it can be helpful. So we control these aspects. So now the thermic effect of food is the same, because it didn't change unless my calories change. I'm keeping my steps up. And what I might do is if I go into a deficit, I might add 1000 steps, not because I want to necessarily burn more calories from those steps. But if I'm just adding 1000 I'm probably just burning as much because once At first I'll burn more. But once adaptation, which usually from what I know takes about three weeks, that's what I asked that to our chief science officer was like How long does it take for metabolic adaptation actually kicks in and starts to have an effect and he said, usually about three weeks, and so in three weeks, my knee starts to take off but I increased my steps at about that point, so that I burned more calories through steps while I burn less through blinking, fidgeting, twitching

Philip Pape 39:38

movement, so it offsets people need to understand it offsets otherwise, it would be much bigger drop.

Cody McBroom 39:42

Exactly. So when I track these things, I can control them and therefore I can prevent the plateau to an extent right it's gonna happen eventually anyway. But the reason this is so important is because if you do that, it means that when out of metabolic adaptation takes place and you do hit a plateau. It's actually a sign of success, because met bulk adaptation is taking place because you lost five pounds. And when you're five pounds lighter, your mass is smaller and your mass requires less calories to sustain. And that means, guess what? You won. And so now that you're five pounds later, the reward you get is you have to eat less to break the plateau. So

Philip Pape 40:17

it's true, because you just fought that battle with your body and your body's like, alright, take it to the next step.

Cody McBroom 40:22

Exactly. Right. So even they have, they did a meta analysis on a bunch of research studies. And there was a correlation between sustaining fat loss and metabolic adaptation. And what that means is the people in these research studies, these weight loss studies that they looked at those who were the most successful at sustaining the weight loss that they loss, long term, had the greatest amounts of metabolic adaptation still present, which we never want to wet. But if you think about it makes sense. Because if you lost 30 pounds, and then you kept it off, that's 30 pounds of metabolic adaptation happening, and it's gonna stick around. Now you might have been able to reverse diet, you might have been able to kick things up, but there's still going to be a thermostat based on your total weight that's regulating off of the weight that you're at currently, right. And that's going to show the signal of metabolic adaptation, which shows us you kind of one, you know, and if, if somebody is listening this and they have 40 pounds to lose, I promise you that having a lower maintenance, calorie intake is definitely worth losing that weight because it won't feel lower. Because at that point, it's normal for your body weight now, just like the higher intake was normal for your body weight, then it's just that you see a higher number.

Philip Pape 41:26

Your hunger signals are already regulated at that level. Yeah. And so on. Yep.

Cody McBroom 41:31

Yep. And if you think about to like, a lot of times, when people go through great weight loss, there's plenty research sport, that the most common factors with these people, you know, usually they they weigh in pretty regularly, they strength train, like there's a lot of different things, but a lot of it too is they eat volume is foods, they eat high fiber carbs, like so they're, they naturally shift to healthier habits that keep you fuller anyway, they drink more water, so on and so forth. So you won't even notice it. But I preface all that because we're controlling what we can control. And then when a plateau rises, we go, okay, we've controlled all the variables that we can control. And we're at a plateau now. And it's primarily because maybe metabolic adaptation is kicking in, but it's because I lost weight. So if you're listening to this, and you hit a plateau, and you haven't lost weight, it's because you didn't control the factors properly. But it's simple, it means that somewhere in your need dropped, you got to bump up your steps, you got to bump up your movement, your diet stopped working for you, which means maybe that you are eating less volume as foods and thermic effect of food drops, maybe you're not eating, you're not timing your nutrients, or eating the right carbs, or protein, or whatever it is to have enough recovery and energy to be in the gym and train hard, which means you're burning less calories in the gym, which you can't track accurately like I'm on an Apple Watch. But that doesn't know like, Yeah,

Philip Pape 42:38

well, you can track the symptoms of your recovery, your energy and mood, right? So bingo,

Cody McBroom 42:42

yeah, and you can see progressive overload the gym and you can rate your perceived exertion after you did some sprint intervals and tell it like, did you really go hard? Or was it dragging ass like, so if you're controlling things, right, you will only hit a plateau if, you know metabolic adaptation kicks in, and you just you stop losing weight. And so at that point, you drop calories, or you increase energy expenditure. And so increasing energy expenditure is it more difficult adjustment to make when you reach a plateau. And the reason it's more difficult adjustment to make is because there's no like, I don't know, like people could say, You know what, with calories, for example, if I'm gonna adjust your calories after we've already started, I'm gonna adjust at least five upwards of 10% calorie reduction, if I just start you on a diet, so like, if you're at maintenance, and I'm putting you into a deficit to lose fat, I'm going to go much higher than that, because we're trying to get you out of that maintenance range and start losing. And if I do it, right, I won't have to just those again for a little bit, because it's going to work for us for a while. So I might adjust at least 15, upwards of 25%, let's say, you know, there's plenty of research that even shows 3035, which is a good amount. So it's harder to adhere to when you're not in a controlled study. But 15 to 25% is a good marker. And then when you plateau, I'll just drop your calories by five to 10%, usually just five, because it just gives you another notch down and you start losing again. And then another notch down, you start losing again, with energy expenditure, editor, energy expenditure through cardio. And activity, it's hard because I can bump up step count by 10 to 20%. But at a certain point, you don't want to keep adding steps because beyond 15, your body adapts pretty easily 50,000 steps a day. So with cardio, you know, you kind of just gotta guess it's like, Alright, we're going to add 10 minutes per session, we're going to add another 30 minute cardio, you know, and usually at that point, you don't want to be using hit because you probably don't have the energy. So fatigue is higher at that point. And so

Philip Pape 44:28

the trade off is not worth it. That's good for people to know, too. Yeah,

Cody McBroom 44:31

I usually use hit cardio at the beginning of the fat loss phase, and then I'll transition it to lists or I just never use it to begin with, which is usually honestly the better bet if they have the time to do low intensity and just focus on steps. It's usually better. But you know, so for example, if I'm prepping somebody for a physique show, like if you come to me and we get you we're getting prepped for a show and we're training five days a week or six days a week. You're gonna have one cardio day, if you're doing five, no cardio days, you're doing six and we're just so that way you're training six days a week, basically one rest day step count every day when you hit a plateau and it's time to To implement cardio, you got to kind of make a dent in it. So I would say at least two if not three times a week, 30 minutes walking on a treadmill four to six hours away from your training session, so it doesn't interfere and have that interference effect with your performance of gym. And we're doing low intensity or just to burn calories, 30 minutes, and then you hit a plateau. Guess what? Now we're going to four days a week, love this week. So like, you don't have to go that route. But if you're trying to maintain muscle and you you like your food like most of us do, sometimes you'd rather spend 30 minutes walking on a treadmill or going for a walk with your dog then dropping calories further.

Philip Pape 45:29

Totally. Yeah, I'm telling clients that all the time, like we just walk a little more, so we don't have to cut that 50 calories this week or that calories.

Cody McBroom 45:36

This is this is an interesting aspect of it too. With regard to metabolic adaptation, everything. There's a lot of research to support that if you implement cardio, you will naturally eat more calories throughout the day. And you will naturally drop your knee, your body is really, really smart. It's the same reason why people will say like, Well what about fasted cardio? Well fasted cardio does burn more body fat for fuel, however, your body will upregulate its ability to use carbohydrates and glycogen throughout the day to for energy, if you use most of the fat in the morning. And so it offsets regulates balances out and you just you're at the same net calorie, so it doesn't matter. And it's so hard to trick your body with this. But the only way you can trick your body with the cardio thing. If you're tracking macros, then you know for a fact you're not going to overeat calories as long as you have the discipline to not do so. And you're you have awareness there. And then with the cardio, or the need, if you're tracking your steps. And what you should do is track your steps. And then when you go to do that programmed cardio, it's not neat, because it's intentional. Take the step counter off, do the cardio, and be sure to still hit that step count without that cardiac

Philip Pape 46:42

go. Because if you don't What about when you lift? What about you when you lift? Because that counts of steps to do you take it off,

Cody McBroom 46:48

you can if you want. So I don't, I don't personally because it's an easy way to get steps and I pace. I'm like, I'm just gonna keep getting steps. You know, so that won't change. And I'm always gonna lift. The reason we take it out with cardio is because cardio is something that's going to come into the picture when we want to ramp up calories and break your pot towel, and it's gonna go away, well reversing out, right. But that's a way we can control it to make sure metabolic adaptation doesn't do what it does and cause us to step less or eat more, because we're tracking the variables instead of just guessing. You know, and they have research through that, too. So it's,

Philip Pape 47:20

but you know, this is really because I was because my other question was coming to mind if your knee is adapting downward as you're in the deficit, and then trying to move more is step count, still a good proxy? So it probably is good enough. Right? And like you said, if you take it off for intentional cardio as well, just to keep that variable out of it. It's close enough, right? Would you say?

Cody McBroom 47:39

Yeah, 100%. Yeah. And again, it's, none of these things are perfect, even macros aren't perfect, but they're the closest thing we can get to trying to control all the regulating systems of the body, you know, and if we can control those regulating systems, we can avoid them, basically auto regulating yourself out of losing more weight. And that's what they're here to do. They're here to try to now grant again, like, if you have somebody who's 5060 pounds overweight, it is far less likely to happen in the beginning, because they're still in that stage of they lose more, move more, they're also getting healthier, so their body's not going to fight them as much. The leaner you add, the more like quote, unquote, stubborn fat you have, the more you got to kind of fight your body and know this stuff. But almost everybody gets that point, it's at one point or another because if if somebody is listening this and they do have 40 pounds to lose, you still got to know this stuff. Because your body has adjusted to be like your new homeostasis is 40 pounds heavier, right. So when you try to lose 40 pounds, when you're 20 pounds down, you're so far out of the norm for your body that it's going to start to fight a little bit, even though you don't think you're at the place you should be. It'll fight back, I promise.

Philip Pape 48:45

That's, that's a great thing you said, because I was thinking, the listener might be thinking, wow, this is all this is all great for optimization, great for athletes, great for people who are further along in their journey. You want to know this stuff, right from the beginning, and track this stuff and either either do it on your own, that's kind of the approach I took. And obviously you took when you were younger, or working with a coach or an app or whatever it is. Because that'll get you the results most effectively.

Cody McBroom 49:09

Yeah, yeah, going, you know what to like, at the end of the day. We can't say this, for sure. But maybe it does happen. Those people who have 40 5060 pounds lose just to a far lesser degree. So if you know this stuff, and it's as simple as we're an Apple Watch tracking macros, what you got to do anyway, just make sure you don't let that regulate regulating system take over. Maybe you lose that 40 pounds, you won't lose even faster, because the first 20 pounds goes quicker, easier, simpler, faster, because you understand this stuff.

Philip Pape 49:34

It's true. It's true. And I've seen it with clients, I had a lot of weight to lose, you're right, especially when they're D trained. It's that that initial phase can go really good can go really well since you've got these things dialed in. Yeah, you have a few a few minutes more. Yeah, we're good. Okay, so speaking of you know, optimization, I know you've worked with some elite clients, maybe actors physique, competitors. Maybe what's the most challenging case you ever had? You don't have to name names but like the goal What was the process to get there and what you learned from that experience as a coach?

Cody McBroom 50:03

Ooh, yeah. I mean, truthfully, to be completely transparent with listeners and everybody, I've worked with some really cool people, and they're the easiest people to work with. I mean, I've worked with some, some, some professional athletes and that they're freaks. You know, you shouldn't be impressed by my ability to get a jacked athlete even more jacked and athletic. You know what I mean? Like, it doesn't take so like, if somebody just does what you tell them, right? Exactly. Yeah, they're disciplined. They're, they're motivated, they make money by being better and fitter. Like, come on, you know, I even tell people that about me, it's like, hey, like, Don't compare yourself to me, because I like we're in I'm in the podcast studio right now, as we're recording this on the other side, as well as the fucking gym, I would have to like literally, like sneak out and avoid the gym to not train, it's right in front of me. And I do this for a living, like, I have a lot of accountability. So granted, I didn't once upon a time, and there's a lot of hard work and other areas of my life. But I've fallen in love with the gym. And it's very easy for me. So you know, it's it's, I don't know, I said it should all time that I'm like the person that trains. Like, let's say LeBron hires a new trainer, I'm not going to be impressed by him, you know, because making LeBron a better one is probably gonna happen. He's already fucking great in that, too. It's like, what I mean, what can you really do like, now, whoever trains the guy who is like the, like, bench rider at a, like a small college that got to the NBA, or like some, like, that's totally different, you know, or 50 pound weight loss. So yeah, I've trained a lot of people. So a couple of things that I think of that come to mind that are difficult. So like, the web people I train and work with, from a training perspective, easy, nutrition, not so easy. They're traveling all the time, they got to eat what's there, they got to get on planes, I gotta eat at a Starbucks, like, it's, it's difficult. For some of them. Highly motivated, it's just a little bit more technical. And you got to figure out more options for them. I think of one of my clients, and really good friend. Now I've gotten close to him over the years, Jake Lewers, who is the singer of August Burns Red, which is a metal band, he his was difficult to because he's not a fitness guy. He was a metal singer, you know, but he wanted to get in shape and continue being able to do what he does. And he travels around the world on tour. He also owns a nonprofit, and he owns a gym as well, actually, with full staff trainers who I mentor now. And like that's a wild lifestyle to try to figure all this out and balance it and stuff. So that one was difficult, but really, really cool. I've put people on stage for bodybuilding bikini. It's cool. But again, they're extremely motivated, easy to work with they, they're just robots with it, which is awesome. I love that. But yeah, it's hard to say man, the person that comes to mind the most and is somebody who we won't get into the whole story. I actually tell it on we're coming out of the second podcast called The Daily transformations podcast, which is where we interview our coaches and our clients. And one of my coaches hosts it and they we just tell the stories of the people that have been a part of this company. And I tell the full story there. But long story short, she, she came to us when I was a personal trainer at a gym, she had a lot of PTSD from an abusive relationship as well as abusive past. There was, I mean, not to get like more of it, but it's pretty crazy, like, gang rape, big like getting beat in it started in a weight room with football players. And so she came in and she had PTSD, around football around gyms around men, and she came in wanted to work with me and I was like 2122 year old trainer, and maybe 23 I was pretty young and she wanted to lose weight, make the pro women's football team out here in Washington State. And she wanted to be comfortable training in a gym with other men. And I'm like, Okay, this is going to be difficult. So we worked together for a few years actually, she lost 30 pounds she made the the pro women's football team play for a year and then stopped she was like I just I did what I needed to do. I believe she still remember at the gym. I mean, she she went through the whole transformation that was probably the most difficult, insane growing process I've ever been through. And I've worked with a lot of people I've helped people lose over 100 pounds more than once. I've helped again, get people on stage who II I say low level, but they're an actor. So like, sitcom stuff like that, like not head roll Brad Pitt shit, but like, you know, really cool people, man. And that one was something that just, it changed the way I processed the world for sure,

Philip Pape 54:23

man. Yeah, I mean, you never know who you're going to work with. And like you said, it's, you know, a big name is whatever, it's the person, the individual their challenges in life, probably a lot that you can relate to, even if you had didn't have that specific experience. And when someone comes back to you a few months later and says, you know, yeah, I got my physical transformation. But look at all these other things that are better in my life. That that has made you feel great.

Cody McBroom 54:45

Yeah, it was really, really cool, man. It was like it was life changing for her and for me, honestly. Yeah, I

Philip Pape 54:51

think I think you told that story on on your podcast before. I think it sounds familiar. Like a few months back.

Cody McBroom 54:55

They were almost at 900 episodes.

Philip Pape 54:57

I know. There you go. No idea. That's Hello. Yes. So how's podcasting made you a better coach than?

Cody McBroom 55:03

Man? It just, it's, it's a form of I mean, it's one of my favorite platforms. You know, it's it's the, I think it's allowed me to articulate topics really well, because you can authentically work through science and coaching application, like better than any other platform, you know. And it gives me it gives me a platform that I can do so without a time barrier, you know, because I can turn on the mic out here. And I can talk on topic for an hour. And I know that I'm not doing a client check in or on the phone with somebody or in a meeting that has a time cap or has somebody, one person on their screen that is on a time crunch. Like, it's not specific to one person, so they don't need this answer right now to figure shit out, right? It's something I can just teach. And so it's made me a better teacher and communicator, without a doubt, which in turn makes me a way better coach, it's taught me to study better, because if you're gonna talk on topic, you better study at first, you know, so I've really had to learn how to find research, find information, study it, educate myself, and then learn how to interpret it in my own way. And then, I'd also say more than anything, it's made me a better content creator, but more than you think it was, like, the, to me, at least I feel like it was, it was made for me like, this is the perfect platform for me and how I am as a human. So I was very grateful to get into podcasting, because it allowed everything else I do to just resonate with people better and hit people better because they can, they can listen to the real me talk for an hour. And I don't know, I've always said like, if you can talk on a topic for an hour, you're probably you probably know what you're doing. You know, it's a good sign for people to learn how to trust you, and to really get a good sense of who you are. And it allows me to authentically and transparently like talk about who I am as a person. And that I don't know, that translates into people's headphones in hit Tom so well, for people.

Philip Pape 56:51

I'm feeling you mad 100% Because if I had to write articles, or, you know, do social media reels, and that was the only way to get to people, it just I couldn't it couldn't happen. Like just being able to, like you said, think through things. And even even the research people get you. I know you do q&a episodes all the time. I'm sure every single one of those questions comes in part of the answer, you know, and part of it's like, let me go just double check, or let me do some research or, you know, and it's just learn, learn, learn, like, you know, just accelerates it. So, I totally feel you, man, and you can't be fake. I mean, we're here just having this conversation. You never know where it's gonna go. This couldn't happen. 20 years ago, I always like to ask because it's, it's pretty cool.

Cody McBroom 57:28

Yeah, it is really cool. And you get to meet connect with a lot of cool people. Because like, for sure, I used to pay for consoles all the time. And maybe like, right, so like, what's your goal you want to I'm like, I just wanna talk to you, man. I just want to like pick your brain. Shit, you're more experienced coaches wanna talk to you? And then podcasts came? I was like, Wait, so I don't have to pay for this anymore. I can just I can just say,

Philip Pape 57:49

you know how much I just got from asking you these questions today, right, then now is going to help me with my clients and their future episodes. So

Cody McBroom 57:55

and it makes me a better podcaster. It gets me far more people. It's a win win all around. It's so great. I love it.

Philip Pape 58:00

Yeah, yeah. So all right, maybe one or two questions, and then I'll let you go. What are you working on? Now? That's like, besides your app, and stuff like that, the industry industry is changing a lot, even in 10 years? Like, are there trends? Are there advancements? Are there technologies that you're really excited about? Or experimenting with? That? You know, you want to talk about?

Cody McBroom 58:18

Honestly, no, man, I think that there's, there's been so many things to come out. But nothing has really stood out to me as and we tried a lot of things. But there's, I'm yet to find anything that is like, groundbreaking, I think that at least in the tech world, you know, like I'm working on a lot. I mean, we're always improving our systems. Right now, I'm really working on building the business from, like a role structure perspective. So like the people on my staff, making sure that we're on our own roles we have, we know who reports to who, for what and who's in charge of what and like just working very organized in efficiently so that we can grow at a better rate. Um, I'm working on reaching out to other communities and doing seminars. So I'm actually like in the process of seminar here next month, and then Portland, hopefully next month in New York in September, we're working on something in San Diego, hopefully, so really traveling and get in front of other gyms and in communities and stuff like that. But now that's tech, you know, it's I mean, the apps tech but I'm not doing anything, right systems and people exactly. So the app is something I'm working on that I'm in meetings with developers all the time just to prove things and make sure it's moving in the right direction. The apparel stuff took a pause because we had to restructure we had some trademark issues and we had to kind of go back and kind of get our ducks in a row it's a new industry so we're going to be coming out with a new line here next month and then another one in the summer and so getting that back rolling is gonna be exciting. Yeah, and just just more of everything man I just I love I love creation. So anything business wise that allows me to be creative? I love it

Philip Pape 59:45

that's that's your you're in everything man that you're in everything. It's always an inspiration. Man, I hear you doing all this because you know, it pushes pushes the rest of us who want to get there someday to to keep going. Because I always look at it as like I want to be surrounded by people who who are beyond me that that push me to the next level. So Good. Yeah, good stuff. Okay, so I always get asked this question of all of all guests, and that is what one question Did you wish I had asked? And what is your answer?

Cody McBroom 1:00:11

Yeah, that's a good question, man.

Philip Pape 1:00:14

I don't know. It's paid off a lot.

Cody McBroom 1:00:17

It was a really good podcast. I mean, we covered a lot with with just training and nutrition and everything, man, I think that. Had you stumped me on that dude. I don't know. I don't ever like that's the funny thing is because like, it's, as soon as we got on, I was like, I know, you said some topics. I don't remember what they were, I didn't really look at them. And I do that because I like to just go in and just like, let's just authentically talk and you know, be so to me. I don't ever have expectations, except having a good time. You know, so to me like this, this is perfect. We're shooting the shit. We're talking about stuff we love. And I just hope that like, I mean, I guess the only question I would say is, what do you hope the listeners get out of it? You know, and because I was about to say that anyway. And I just hope that I hope somebody learned something, I hope somebody gets value from it to me, I'm like, I have a big mission this year. Like, every time I talk to somebody on video, every time I talk somebody on the phone, every time I see somebody in person, every time I have somebody asked me something, any interaction that I have any single day of my entire life, I've made this commitment this year at 23 hit I was like this is what I want to focus on is I want them to leave with more value than they came to me with. I want them to leave in a better mood, I want them to leave with a new piece of like knowledge, just a little nugget that can help them improve. I want them to have more positivity, more self belief, confidence, anything like I want to be the person that puts energy and other people, you know, when they step in room with me, so I just hope everybody listening gets that. Like that's more than anything, you know?

Philip Pape 1:01:43

100% they did, because I did and I know everyone listening, you know, is here for that reason to have that growth mindset. So thanks a lot, man. Where can listeners learn more about you?

Cody McBroom 1:01:53

Yeah, so Instagram at Cody McBroom. I post every day there. Everything else is on tailored coaching method.com We write articles almost every week. Tailored live podcast is on there as well. We have three episodes that go out a week we're starting another podcast soon we got YouTube every other week. Like we're pumping shit out like crazy. And it's all free like obviously we coach that's what we do for a living otherwise we couldn't do it for free but we got a lot of a lot of great content for free so go check any of that out.

Philip Pape 1:02:19

Yeah, man your purpose is clear, you know in the world here and the stuff this stuff means a lot to a lot of people out there so I'll put your your IG and tailored coaching method.com in the show notes. Man, you brought so much value today for a fact. Thanks again for coming on.

Cody McBroom 1:02:34

Yeah, absolutely, man. Thanks for having me.

Philip Pape 1:02:38

Philip Pape 5/12/23 Philip Pape 5/12/23

Ep 69: What to do FIRST – Lose Fat, Build Muscle, or Body Recomposition?

Today, I answer a common question many people have when starting their fitness journey: What should you do first to get results on your body recomposition? Should you focus on losing fat, building muscle, or doing both at the same time?

I discuss seven common scenarios and share a 6-12 month plan for each scenario. You can choose the best approach based on your goals, starting point, and personal preferences. Plus, I'll share some common mistakes people make when pursuing their fitness goals, so you can avoid them and stay on track. I also recommend an app that is particularly helpful for tracking your macros, making it easier to manage your nutrition goals.

Do you have any fitness questions you want me to answer, or do you want to give feedback? You can now send a voicemail, and we might even feature it on one of our future episodes!
__________
Book a FREE 30-minute call with Philip here.
__________

Today you’ll learn all about:

[2:44] Listener feedback
[4:58] Six to ten weeks maintenance phase, establishing your habits
[6:47] Common mistakes
[12:23] Scenario 1: You need to lose 10-20 Lbs
[15:24] Scenario 2: You need to lose 20-40 Lbs
[15:24] Scenario 3: You need to lose 40-50-60 Lbs or more
[24:17] Scenario 4: You're at the lower end of skinny-fat
[26:19] Scenario 5: You're untrained and lean
[29:33] Scenario 6: You're trained and lean
[31:22] Scenario 7: You're trained and hitting the upper limit of your body fat
[35:20] Outro

Episode resources:

Ep 25: Lose 30 Pounds (or More) the Right Way and Keep it Off
Download the MacroFactor app to stay on track with your diet and achieve your fitness goals. Extend your free trial using the code WITSANDWEIGHTS.
Got questions or feedback? Leave a voicemail here.

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https://witsandweights.com/free-call

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Transcript

Philip Pape 00:00

Overall, Are we pursuing a healthy dietary pattern? Are we maintaining our weight? Are we lifting properly? Are we getting enough sleep all the things? Okay, so if you if you need to lose a little bit of weight, I wouldn't actually lose weight, I would actually go for body recomp take advantage of being in a sufficient energy environment, and take advantage of those newbie gains for building muscle and losing fat. And then after you do that, you can decide what to do next. Welcome to the Wits & Weights podcast. I'm your host, Philip pape, and this twice a week podcast is dedicated to helping you achieve physical self mastery by getting stronger. Optimizing your nutrition and upgrading your body composition will uncover science backed strategies for movement, metabolism, muscle and mindset with a skeptical eye on the fitness industry. So you can look and feel your absolute best. Let's dive right in. Wits & Weights

Philip Pape 00:51

community Welcome to another solo episode of the Wits & Weights podcast. I hope you enjoyed our last episode number 68, with Adrian Moreno, where we talked about tapping into your deepest emotions and telling your power story to unlock your potential. So go check that out. Today for episode 69. We are answering a question that I get all the time from listeners potential clients, current clients, and that is what should you do first, to get the best results with your body composition. Should you lose fat, build muscle, aim for that magic of body recomp or body composition where you lose fat and build muscle at the same time. And today I'm going to dive into scenarios that the vast majority of people fall into, I'm going to explain what your six to 12 month plan would look like. If you want the best results that balances your health physique. And performance. We're not talking about the extremes here. We're just talking about the general population what most people are looking forward to look and feel great. Now having said that, these are all designed to focus all of your energy at one goal at a time, so that you can do the whole process more efficiently. Get to that finish line, get the quick wins, and then be in a position a really good position to go after the next goal. Now before we get into the topic, I do have an announcement, you can now send me an audio voicemail directly to the show very easily. Whether you have a question feedback, you just want to say hello, just go to pod inbox.com/wits & weights, or even easier, just click the q&a voicemail link in my show notes again, the q&a voicemail link, you can send me a question, and I will play it live on the next episode. And then answer the question or if it's just feedback, I can play it as well. Speaking of listener feedback, I did want to take a moment to read a few of the recent five star reviews from listeners who I'm very, very grateful for. In fact, I'm just grateful for the opportunity to have this show and this platform to be able to share all of the same information that's helped me and I know will help you as well. So just just three short reviews I want to read. The first is from Lady Blackwood, quote, I've struggled with my weight for many years, one yo yo diet after another. I've been searching for hope and a way out of the endless spiral. And I'm so glad I found this podcast. I mean, I see something like that. And it gives me hope that at least something of what we're sharing here is making a difference out there. And that's what we're all about. We have a review from Brian Montes, who says the host is extremely knowledgeable about fitness and weight loss. The episodes provide actionable steps that you can implement immediately to help on a weight loss journey. Even if you're not looking to lose weight. This podcast helps you maintain a healthy lifestyle. And I want to recognize that the detail the nuances of that review because this this is definitely not a show about weight loss. In fact, I try not to use the phrase weight loss very often I usually use the term fat loss. But this listener definitely recognize that the things we do have a pleasant side effect of helping with our weight if that is something we struggle with, and need to reduce for our health as part of overall health and improving our body composition. And finally, Nicolas Natali writes, Philip is knowledgeable in this space, and enthusiastically provides strategies to shred fat and get jacked. I enjoy his excitement around the topic most. And again, I just I love it because everybody gets something a little bit different. And I am excited about that. So I'm very passionate and if it comes through too much, I don't apologize because that's me. And I hope you really enjoy that aspect of this podcast. So I am truly grateful for this opportunity to create the show, let alone impact the lives of anyone listening for the better. And I always always appreciate hearing from listeners, whether it's through these reviews by email by social or now by voicemail. So with that, let's get into today's topic. What to do first Should I lose fat? Should I go into that calorie deficit and lose fat right away? Should I spend some time building muscle and being in a surplus, or should I try for body re composition? First things first, we're going to assume that you've already gone through a roughly six to 10 week maintenance phase, where you establish your habits, habits, like tracking your food, getting sufficient protein strength training, at least, I would say three days a week, getting a decent step count. So six 810 1000 steps, improving your sleep hygiene and managing stress. If you haven't gone through this foundational phase yet, I wouldn't even consider going after a specific body composition goal until you do, because it is that important to being successful. And if you're, if this is the first show you've ever listened to with me. And this is a surprise or you're wondering what this is all about. Go back and check out episode 25. Now the title is lose 30 pounds or more the right way and keep it off, which maybe it's not really about, it's not just about losing a lot of weight. Even if you don't have a weight to lose, I actually spend a good amount of time and they're going into detail about this metabolic prep phase or primer phase or pre diet maintenance, whatever you call it. So you don't have to listen to a whole episode but but listen for that section, and how I describe it in the steps to get there. And this is what I do with all my clients. When we start, we don't go right into a diet, we don't go right into a muscle building phase, we get things normalized first. Now, once you know your maintenance calories, and you have solid practices in place for training, steps, and recovery, you're ready to go after your transformation. So first, I want to address not first I've said first multiple times today, but let's quickly address some of those mistakes, the general mistakes that people make when going through this kind of transformation. And by the way, I've been there for years and years and years, I tried to transform my body. And it was always either random, it was an extreme, it was restrictive, or I just didn't know what I was doing. Right. So I would get two pieces, right. And I would miss the third piece or or something like that. So these are the big mistakes that I see. Okay, and the first one is setting an unrealistic goal. I'm all for ambitious goals, for sure. Okay, but once we go through all the scenarios and expectations today, you'll know what I mean by unrealistic, I would rather you achieve significant progress within the realm of possibility, even if that that possibility is could still be a far reach from where you are today. I'd rather you do that then overreach for some massive progress that and then be unable to stick with the process to get there. And then that sets you back even longer, right. So it's that fine balance, setting the unrealistic goal second, being inconsistent with your training. Okay, while you're going for building muscle recomp, or muscle or fat loss, the training is one of the key principles that have to be in there the whole time. So you have to be consistent, right? You can't do it three days this week, take a week off than two days and take a week off and then some random timeframe. And then finally you're back at it, and so on, because you're going to leave gains on the table, or you're going to lose muscle during fat loss without that consistency. Now, the next mistake people make is not tracking your numbers. And I say it that way. Because I don't have to be dogmatic about which numbers you track. If you're working with me, as a client, we're tracking everything basically. Because I feel that the the more numbers you have, the more data you have, the better decisions you can make. At the cost of a little bit more inconvenience, I get it. But we're talking calorie and macro intake scale and weight trend over time, your body circumference measurements, your lifting progression, you know, I want to see are you going up in weight every session on your squat? Biofeedback, like hunger, energy, stress, sleep, and so on how you look and feel, which could be measured by photos by the mirror and how your clothes fit. So all of these are objective measures. Yeah, even how you look that is objective because it's something that can be quantified visually, and then compared to overtime. And then last mistake people make is, well, I guess that was the last mistake. But basically, if you are if you are consistent, and you continue to adjust your plan based on all of this, including your numbers, you will inevitably make progress. And to hit those precisely, in my opinion, you'll need to track your food. Now if you're listening to us, you're like, I don't track macros. I don't track food, either. You've done it before and you've developed into version, where you can do it pretty well like good enough for a fat loss or muscle building phase. Or you're just refusing to accept that this is necessary to make progress. And it is, if you don't like this, if you don't want to do this, you can still make progress. But it could be inconsistent, it could take longer than you'd like. And it might result in a less optimal final body composition, and then require you to go through multiple phases or iterations to get there, you're just going to lack the information you need to make those adjustments and decisions. And if you're cool with that, knowing that it might take longer fine, but I highly recommend tracking your food. And the app that I use all my clients use, it's called macro factor. I would look for it in the app store. And you could use my code Wits &, Weights, all one word, and that'll extend your free trial. You don't have to use it. But if you do, it supports me. So I thank you for that. Again, the code is Wits & Weights. In my opinion, macro factor blows away every other app, and I've tried them all I've looked at them all my fitness pal, chronometer, carbon, RP, all of them. And it just it's far superior, in my opinion. So feel free to pause this episode right now. Go download macro factor, enter my code, Wits & Weights, and start tracking your food and weight. I mean, literally do it right now pause the episode and go download it, check it out, even take some time to play around with it, you can send me a message with a question, I'll point you to resources and help you get it going. Because this is gonna give you a ton of helpful data to make progress. Okay, and you're gonna hit your goals more quickly and more easily. Alright, with all that out of the way, let's get into it. Unless I mentioned otherwise, this, the scenarios I'm going to talk about the first the first five of the seven scenarios assumes you're either untrained. So you've never lifted weights properly or intelligently before. And that was me for like 10 years, I lifted weights, but I wasn't doing it the right way. And this assumes you've never done it, you know, with progressive overload to properly build muscle, or it assumes that you are D trained, which means you used to have some muscle and use to train, but you've regressed after months or probably years of not training. And then I'm going to cover trained individuals in the last two scenarios. Okay, so scenario one, is when you have some weight to lose like 10 to 20 pounds, I think that's a good range 10 to 20 pounds. And there's a lot of people who maybe, maybe you've dieted multiple times over the years, and or maybe you're getting a little bit older, and that fat starting to creep up, because your metabolism slowing down, because you don't quite have the muscle mass anymore. And I would say if you're there or at the higher end of skinny fat, right, and you kind of know who you are where you don't really look quote unquote heavy on the outside while you're wearing clothes. But you know, you've got some soft spots, and you want to get rid of them. Okay, so in this scenario, where you have a little bit of weight, or you're a higher end of skinny fat, I would go for body re composition. Okay, this is the only scenario where I'm going to say that. So body composition is where you don't gain any weight or lose any weight. But you build muscle while losing fat at the same time. And to do this, you'll have to stay at your maintenance calories. So all this stuff I just went over and spent all that time talking about with the pre diet maintenance, with tracking your food with using macro factor that needs to all be set up and cranking along for about six to 10 weeks, so you know what your maintenance calories are. And then you could precisely go after body recomp because even being at maintenance still requires some precision to make sure you're not going in the direction you don't want to go. So in this phase, what I would do is I would monitor things like my circumference measurements, photos, and how your clothes are fitting because your scale weights not going to change. Right, you're actually intentionally trying not to go up or down in scale weight, but you're trying to improve how you feel in your clothes, the fit, your strength, your lifts, and your biceps, all these other things, your lifts should progress. They may not be crazy progression, like they might be if you're eating more, but they shouldn't stall they should definitely progress if you're a newbie. The other thing is hunger, digestion, things like that shouldn't really be an issue because you're getting sufficient calories. You're at least at maintenance, you're in that mildly anabolic environment. If hunger and digestion are an issue. We want to look at our food selection and pay attention to things like like volume and fiber. But I don't want to chase hacks to fix these things. I want to look at the whole picture. Right? Are we overall Are we pursuing a healthy dietary pattern? Are we maintaining our weight? Are we lifting properly? Are we getting enough sleep all the things Okay, so if you if you need to lose a little bit of weight I wouldn't actually Lose weight, I would actually go for body recomp take advantage of being in a sufficiently high energy and sufficient energy environment, and take advantage of those newbie gains for building muscle and losing fat. And then after you do that, you can decide what to do next. Okay? Because you may find that you look great, you're perfectly where you want to be. And you're actually 10 pounds heavier than you thought you needed to be.

Philip Pape 15:23

Scenario two, is you have even more weight to lose, we're gonna say between 20 and 40 pounds. Okay, so this is a decent amount of weight to lose, but you're not considered in that obese level of excessive unhealthy weight 20 to 40 pounds, I would go for conservative fat loss, okay, conservative meaning for about 12 to 16 weeks, you want to lose between a quarter to point seven 5% of your body weight per week. So you may have heard me talk about on the show, the range of fat loss, that's considered acceptable without losing muscle is point two, five to 1%. So I'm kind of clipping that upper end 2.75%. So basically, you're looking at around a half percent body weight a week. So if you weigh 200 pounds, that's a pound a week, right? This is a balance between consistency and progress. Because if you go too aggressive, you're just not going to be eating very much, you're going to be a little bit, I'm not gonna say miserable. But I mean, it's gonna be tough, tougher on yourself, which risks you fallen off the wagon and not being consistent, and not making progress. So we want to make progress. But we want to go aggressive enough so that the fat also comes off. So this is where 12 To 16 week plan quarter to 7.75%. So around a half percent of body weight. Now here's what might happen when you start this, you might initially see a weight plateau, because you're getting body recomp. Just like in scenario one, you're actually getting body recomp in the early phases, and not really even trying to, you're actually trying to lose fat, trying to make the scale weight go down. But you're building up your muscle building is outpacing your fat loss, and your scale weight starts to plateau. Again, this is where we need to have our body measurements, our clothes, how they feel how we look, all those things, because I have to deal with clients with this all the time where they have 30 pounds of 30 pounds to lose. And the first few weeks when we start the fat loss phase, it doesn't go as fast as we'd like. But then all of a sudden their waist circumference comes down. And they're getting new PRs on all their lifts for weeks, if not months. That's a good sign. Okay. So your lifting will probably progress modestly. If you're beginner, it may plateau after a while. But I wouldn't expect a big plateau early on, because you're new to it. Okay, so this is kind of another sweet spot where you're getting a little bit of recomp and you're getting some fat loss. And if you see plateaus, going beyond that, I would make sure your step count is high enough, right, we sometimes forget about that, as we go into a diet, our natural movements and tend to slow down or unconscious movements. And we just move less to make up for it without even thinking about it. And so we have to consciously track our steps and keep that expenditure a little bit higher. Okay, so that's scenario two, losing 20 to 40 pounds conservative fat loss. Hey, this is Philip. And I hope you're enjoying this episode of Wits & Weights. If you're looking to connect with like minded listeners on their health and fitness journeys, come join our free Facebook community. It's a supportive space where you can share your experiences, ask questions, and access free guides and weekly trainings, just search for Wits, & Weights on Facebook, or find the link in the show notes. Now back to the show. Scenario number three is if you have a lot of weight to lose, so we're talking 40 5060 pounds or more. And this is a pretty simple scenario, it's aggressive, we want to go for aggressive fat loss. So similar timeframe to start as the last scenario, we're gonna say 12 to 16 weeks. But I would keep it up to the upper end more of a half to 1% of your body weight per week. Because you're at a much higher body weight, you can probably you're probably at a higher expenditure, you can handle roughly the same amount of calories as somebody lighter than you. But that's going to put you into a bigger deficit, meaning you'll lose fat more quickly. Now, not always, this is why I give you a range of a half to 1%. If your metabolism is pretty low, it's going to be a little more challenging. But what I would do is I would plan for 12 to 16 weeks monitor all the things stay on top of your expenditure. You know, if you're using macro factor, you'll know exactly what you need every week. And then use diet breaks if you have to break it up into longer phases. So if you're 200 pounds and you go 1% A week, after 16 weeks, you're gonna lose roughly 16 or roughly 32 pounds it's still not 50 pounds, right? So taking a break bringing your carbs up and getting back to maintenance for several weeks or even months is is really good psychologically. Okay site logically, Don't believe the hype about refeeds, about taking three days or a week, and you're cranking up your leptin and everything recovers, and all of a sudden, you could continue your diet at a healthier state with more calories, it doesn't quite work that way. As soon as you start dieting, again, you're going to readapt back to where you were. But here's the thing, a refeed, or a diet break can give you a mental boost. And there is something to be said about the extra performance in the gym, and the recovery and the sleep and the lack of stress, that does give your body a little bit of a reset. So that when you continue to diet, you're fresh when you start, and there is that to be said for it. Okay. So when we're losing 50 pounds or more, it's all about fat loss, we have to use our biofeedback and track our hunger, we don't want to let ourselves get ravenous. We're all of a sudden we binge, we overeat, we emotionally, we have to do all the strategies and planning that we like to talk about on this show, like meal prepping, meal planning, eating lots of vegetables, fruits, whole grains, and so on. And tracking, tracking, tracking, tracking your numbers and making being aware of what adjustments you need to make. Now, here's one thing that might happen. And this could have happened in the last scenario as well. But I especially see it here, when you're just on a prolonged fat loss phase is the car the calories can start to get somewhat low, and you're trying to keep your protein high. And all of a sudden, you're like, hi, I really don't have much room for fats and carbs, my carbs are down like 100 grams, or even less, and I'm feeling sluggish, and I'm feeling sore. And I'm not recovering and my sleep is a little bit restless. This is where we can say alright, we don't need that many that much protein. If you're at like a gram per pound, we can go down to point seven 11.6 If we have too, and give all that to carbs, and maybe a little bit of fats, sometimes it's the fats that's too low, to be honest, especially for women, it was what I found, just getting that extra 10 grams a day could make all the difference. So we have to make these compromises in these trade offs. The idea here is to be consistent, make progress, lose fat period, okay, and a little bit of compromise between some of these variables goes a long way. So this is a mind game, we have to get ahead of issues when they come up. And don't be afraid to take a break. Maybe it's for a holiday, maybe it's for a trip something else where you plan in the extra calories, rather than it being something you didn't, that you lost control of. Alright, and then along the way, you're also probably going to get some re composition because you're new at this. Okay, I've had clients who were 50s 5070 pounds overweight. And when they started, because they hadn't been training or moving, and now they are they start losing weight, and also on their expenditure starts going up at the same time. And their calories don't have to change, like they start at 2000, let's say 2200 calories, and they start losing 1% a week. And all of a sudden, they are let's say not 1% a week, let's say they're going to half a percent a week, and all of a sudden their expenditure comes up and they start losing at a faster rate without changing their calories. Or they increase the rate by barely changing their calories, or I'm sorry, that's what I just said the same way in two different the same thing in two different ways I

Philip Pape 23:17

apologize. So you could go at a faster rate by saying it staying at the same calories because your expenditure is increasing. Or you could increase your calories and eat more and stay at the same rate. That's where I was trying to go. Okay, so you might be eating 2000 calories, and then all of a sudden you could eat 2200 calories and continue losing at the same rate. That's that's a really nice place to be. Okay, so that was the third scenario that was a large amount of fat loss. And by the way, the reason I suggest these specific directions has to do with that balance I mentioned before between health performance and aesthetics are physique, right, we were trying to balance them all, but going after one goal at a time. So I'm sort of giving you the most efficient goal to go after, based on your starting point. And by the way, when you do that, eventually you will end up in another scenario, most likely the trained scenarios that I'm going to get to. Alright, so scenario four, is you're at the lower end of skinny fat. This is where you really don't need to be any lighter on the scale, right? If you have your clothes on, you kind of look skinny. You know, none of these words were meant to be judgmental. It's just our language, we understand what we mean by them. And you don't need to lose any weight but you need to add muscle. So in this case, I would go for what for conservative muscle gain, okay, some people might recommend trying for body recomp here, but honestly, I think you can stand to push it a little bit on the gaining side. And you're still going to have somebody recomp while gaining which would be awesome. Meaning you might actually lose some fat while you're gaining weight. You may not, but the amount of fat gain should be pretty darn minimal if you're doing it in this conservative fashion. So we want to go for a six to nine month plan gaining around point 1% body weight per week, this is as lean gains as we get, because I would recommend between point one and point two 5% When you gain and here I'm talking about the lower end of that point 1%. So you're barely gonna gain any weight, but you'll be in an anabolic environment to feed that muscle building for your newbie gains. Okay, so it's like a lean gain slash body recomp and you're maximizing muscle growth, you're limiting fat gain to near zero, or at least behind the pace of your muscle gain, meaning the muscle to fat ratio is actually higher than one to one. For somebody like me who has been training for a while, it's the opposite, right? I tend to gain a little more fat than I do muscle as I gained, just because it's hard for me to to add additional muscle in absolute terms. But if you're skinny fat and you've never trained, you're gonna like pack on that muscle and not much fat. And that's what we want to go for. And throughout this process, you just got to enjoy learning to eat more, which can be a challenge for some people, especially if you're a hard gainer, which we'll talk about in a second. And you can enjoy lifting more, you should be making really steady progress session after session week after week on your lifts. Okay, so the next scenario is you are lean and untrained, which is lean is different than skinny fat. skinny fat is lightweight on the scale, but you have your body composition has a fairly high body fat percentage, which is what most people are after, at once again into their let's say 40s or 50s. They've died at a bunch of times and haven't really trained properly. Okay, but they but they keep dieting and getting their scale way down. This scenario. Scenario five is when you're lean and untrained. And it's because you either haven't dieted very often, you know, maybe you've just sat at that weight for years with with no muscle, or you're young, like in your late teens or early 20s and just haven't had the opportunity to gain much fat. This could also include hard gainers. Okay, hard gainers, people who, on the surface seem to have trouble gaining weight, and I'll explain why that is. So in this scenario, if you're lean, and you're untrained lean, you don't have much body fat and you're light and you haven't trained go for aggressive muscle gain period. So if you're 2020 year old male, and you just are skinny, go for this go for all the gains you can six to nine months gaining point to 2.4% body weight per week. This is not a dreamer book, this is not trying to gain 1% Every week, because that's that is going to gain too much fat, but it is going on the more aggressive side. So point 3.3 5.4% of your body weight per week. Point 4% body weight per week is what 1.2 1.3% per month. So that's a decent amount of weight gain. You know, after after nine months, you're talking over 10%. So you have to be okay with gaining some fat when you do this. And in fact, I would welcome it, that extra fat is gonna allow you to move more weight as the lighter lift more. All right, enjoy that the progress on your lifts enjoy filling out your shirt. Like those are the things you have to pay attention to if you're talking about body Recombinase Hey, my biceps are filling out my shirt. Now if you're a hard gainer, if you have trouble gaining weight, it's a very real thing, where because every time you eat more food, every time you eat another 100 calories, your body might actually up regulate and burn 50 more calories. And so your metabolism is is catching up to your intake not all the way. But enough where you feel like man, I have to keep eating more and more just to gain weight. And in that case, the reality is yes, you're gonna have to eat more and more. This is why we want to track you something like macro factor where it gives you the surplus you need to stay in that to stay in that rate of gain. But now you have to start looking at strategies how to do that, right, eating more fats, eating more calorie dense foods, things like that, without going into the processed foods all the time, territory or eating fast foods or milkshakes or whatever. There's a good balance, there's foods like nuts, oil, you know, adding oil to your foods, things like that, that are nice little, I don't want to say tricks. They're just ways to scale up the calorie density to gain more if you're in that scenario. So the big thing here is to optimize things like your workout nutrition, and your performance so that you could maximize that rapid, you know, maximize that muscle growth. Okay, lifting really hard heavy training properly and getting that recovery. Okay, so scenario six and seven are if you are trained. Okay, so scenario six is if you're trained, and you're lean, so you've been training and you've gone through a cut or a fat loss phase, and now you're at the low end of where you'd like to be. So you're basically you might see your six pack, you might see a muscle definition. It all depends on who you are. For a male this might be 10% 12%, body fat, something like that. Maybe it's ate, it really depends on you. But it's that lower limit you've set for yourself. In that case, we're gonna go for moderate muscle gain. So this is just a standard building phase, which you know what scenario seven is going to be, it's gonna be the opposite of that. So I always recommend if you're trained, if you're getting back to a new building phase, six to nine months, point, one 2.25% of your body weight per week, the standard range, monitor your numbers, use your measurements, monitor your look and feel your photos. And I like to use the Navy formula, along with my photos and how I look in the mirror to track my body fat. So once I'm doing this, it's pretty consistent. I know my limits at the top end and the bottom end, how much body fat do I want to allow myself to get to, and then how low do I want to go, where I kind of toggle back and forth between this quote unquote, lean but healthy range, not so lean that you're unhealthy, you know, kind of that bodybuilding range, and not getting to where you're an unhealthy level of fat for things like your blood pressure, resting heart rate, and so on. So, again, you just want to always be training hard, you want to use periodization. This is where you can start having fun as you become an intermediate trainee, and incorporate other modes of programming like conjugate, right west side or bodybuilding training, four and five day splits, power building, and so on. Okay, and then scenario seven is just the opposite of that you are trained, and now you're hitting that upper limit of your body fat, which for some of us, it's higher than we think meaning?

Philip Pape 31:33

Well, it goes in both directions. Either you're the type of person that feels like, oh, no, I'm getting too fat. And you're really not that fat, you just might have a little extra belly there, which is not a bad thing when you're trying to lift a lot of weight. And it's healthy to have a little like a little bit of fat there. Or you might be the type of person that's okay, getting way up into the safer for males 20% of body fat before you cut it, guess what, it's all okay, it depends on your priorities. For me, I want to keep my health markers in a good place. So I tend to live a little bit lighter than some of my, you know, lifting buddies would want me to stay but that's just me. Okay, I'm in my 40s. I've had back issues I've had, you know, health, minor health issues, and I like to keep everything in check. However, I am in the middle of a nine month building phase. And I'm gonna push it a little bit when I get to the end, but then I'm gonna probably push it back the other way with my cut. So if you're the upper lip, eliminate your body fat, here's where you're gonna go for a fat loss phase at your preference. This is the only one that where I leave some wiggle wiggle room. So you're either going to do something like 12 or even 16 weeks at like a quarter 2.75% per week, or you're going to shorten that do like an eight to 12 week mini cut at the full 1% per week. So if your expenditures nice and high, if you've built a lot of muscle, you know, I am finding more and more flexibility now that I can eat more. So when I go on a diet, it's really not that much of a struggle anymore. I can go really aggressive and get it over with quickly. Okay, you've done this before, keep everything consistent scale on your meals, focus on volume, you know, don't change anything drastically just hit those targets those calories, the protein and so on. Okay, so let's recap the seven scenarios. Scenario one a little bit of weight to lose body composition. Scenario two little more weight to lose 20 to 40 pounds, conservative fat loss, scenario three, a lot of weight to lose 50 or more pounds, aggressive fat loss. Scenario four is skinny fat, I would gain muscle conservatively. Scenario five is your lean and untrained, I would gain muscle aggressively. Scenario six is you're trained at the lower limit of your body fat, you want to do a typical standard muscle building phase. And then scenario seven, you are trained and you're hitting the upper limit of your body fat, I would just go for fat loss at your preference as aggressively as you want. Alright, I hope you now have an exact starting point based on your current body composition from those scenarios. But if you do still have questions, and there always are specific questions for your circumstance, I'm always happy to jump on a free 30 minute call to go over your individual case come up with a six to 12 month plan that works for you. Just use the link in my show notes for that free call. And my goal of these calls is to get you answers. It's not to sell you anything I really want to get you an answer because I know how frustrating that is for me to not know what to do. I don't mention my services. I don't mention my pricing unless you ask me. So my mission here is to impact as many lives as possible. And if you're educated about evidence based fitness and nutrition, this rubs off on everyone around you. It makes us all healthier and happier. And this is where my passion comes from and I hope it does for you as well listening to this next week for episode 70. I'm having a conversation with none other than Cody McBee room where we dive into topics related to looking like you lift from using data like we talked about today, to balancing aesthetics and performance to overcoming plateaus. Make sure to follow or subscribe to the show to the Wits & Weights podcast right now in your favorite podcast app so you don't miss it. As always, stay strong. And I'll talk to you next time here on the Wits & Weights podcast. Thank you for tuning in to another episode of Wits & Weights. If you found value in today's episode, and know someone else who's looking to level up their Wits & Weights, please take a moment to share this episode with them. And make sure to hit the Follow button in your podcast platform right now to catch the next episode. Until then, stay strong

Philip Pape 5/8/23 Philip Pape 5/8/23

Ep 68: How to Increase Your Emotional Fitness, Tell Your Power Story, and Reach a Massive Audience with Adrian Moreno

My guest today, Adrian Moreno, taught me how to bring this show’s important, life-changing message to an even wider audience by guesting on other podcasts, a topic we dive into. If you own a business, recently started one, or are thinking about it, or even if you have a powerful story you want to share with the world, you’ll want to listen all the way through because his approach is both unique and effective, why is why I use it myself.

Adrian began his career in the health and fitness space while gaining unparalleled experience with hypnosis & NLP (neuro-linguistic programming), establishing himself as a respected transformation specialist through the power of hypnotherapy.

Adrian went against his mentors' teachings, focused on getting booked on top podcasts, and grew his hypnotherapy company to $250,000 in 12 months. He now teaches others how to replicate his success.

__________
Book a FREE 30-minute call with Philip here.
__________

Today you’ll learn all about:

[2:50] Adrian’s experience in health and fitness, hypnotherapy, and helping business owners
[6:45] The day he decided to change his life
[12:40] How he started as a personal trainer
[20:01] The story that kept him going after every rejection
[23:58] His introduction to hypnotherapy
[27:28] Changing the way you see yourself
[30:01] Hypnotherapy and how it helps someone with their health and fitness
[36:10] The most common emotional and mental barriers and strategies to break through these
[38:56] Misconceptions and skepticism about hypnotherapy
[40:40] Carol is grateful to Philip for helping her be consistent with nutrition and understand the importance of taking rest days
[45:00] How Adrian came up with the idea that podcasting was the next big thing to find customers for fitness and other businesses
[1:00:12] A 3-step framework to getting booked on podcasts to grow your business, and his results
[1:07:38] What if you think your story isn’t unique or powerful? How do you make the best impression during podcast interviews?
[1:12:06] Why you should do your thing
[1:16:54] Outro

Episode resources:

Go to thepowerpitch.co/pdf for Adrian’s free PDF, How I Got Booked On 52 Podcasts In 12 Months And Generated 6 Figures Worth Of Clients From It
Download the free self-hypnosis bonus video Adrian talked about here

FREE 30-minute nutrition call with Philip ⬇️
https://witsandweights.com/free-call

Learn about 1-on-1 coaching ⬇️
https://witsandweights.com/coaching

Ask Philip anything ⬇️

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Transcript

David Greenwalt 00:00

weight loss transformation can't fix everything it can't. But what it can do are the things that we should focus on with respect to the transformation. What can it actually impact? Will it affect mental health? Likely will it affect positivity likely might that impact relationships? Very likely might that impact communication? Yes. Might you feel better feel more confident?

Philip Pape 00:23

David Greenwalt 01:41

so much for having me. It's a pleasure to be here.

Philip Pape 01:44

Awesome. And it sounds like you've been in this space for a while the health and fitness space you have the gym, you've got the experience, both with bodybuilding and powerlifting. You don't often hear that, you know, both sides of of it there. And currently health and wellness coaching. So what is the deeper story behind you know, your life experience that led you to want to help people in terms of nutrition and lifestyle?

David Greenwalt 02:04

Yeah, so, you know, thanks for asking. So, for whatever reason, fitness has been in my DNA since I was a little boy when I was 1011 years old. I wanted the President's Council on Physical Fitness award, we had that in grade school and I wanted that award. I was a b c team, AF, you know, traditional sport athlete, I wasn't, I wasn't a starter, that's for sure. That wasn't gonna be on the 18th. But for whatever reason, fitness just was something that I just, I just, I don't know, I just had a passion for it when I was little. So I've still got the sticker in the patch and the certificate from that President's Council award. And that's 45 years old and counting now. And I'm so proud to get that when I was a senior in high school, someone who was a year older than me, who had already developed a really great physique invited me to start come training with him and some friends in the weight room. And I thought, Heck, yeah, this I thought his physique is fantastic. Love to be a part of that. And that's that was in 1982. And I've been training without more than two weeks off in a row since 1982. So, so that was the start of my senior year of high school. Just kind of took some time, obviously to develop a physique. I competed in bodybuilding and powerlifting in my 20s and 30s. I was a police officer became an Illinois State Trooper when I got to the Academy for the state police. I decided that I wanted to try to start a tiny little supplement company mail order company. And if I'd be happy if I could just make enough money with this side hustle back then we didn't call it that. But if I can just make enough money to pay for my own protein powder, I'd be happy. And, and so I'm I'm working 40 hours a week in uniform. And I started this tiny little mail order company I placed little classified ads in the back of like bodybuilding magazines, flex Iron Man muscle mag, and I couldn't afford display ads. That was way too rich for me. And it was just a tiny little room in my house. There was no internet. I gave a toll free number people could call I couldn't even answer the phone because I was a police officer working the roads. So I'd have to call them back. And,

Philip Pape 04:08

and and I would scream and this is how it was done back then this is

David Greenwalt 04:12

how it was done. Yeah. So as it turned out, it was as much a surprise to me as it would beat anybody. But over the over the course between like 1992 and 1997. I grew that company into about 5 million in annual revenue and 45 employees. And so I'm still a police officer. I'm still working. I've got this company. I've got, you know, dozens of employees. And what happened was the Internet came in. And throughout this process my my customers had seen me that they knew that I had competed in bodybuilding. They knew I competed in powerlifting and I also wrote about fitness and health and nutrition and exercise and I'd go to the we had to go to the Medical Library back then to get research and that they had to photocopy the papers and then bring them back to my office and then read them and highlight him. And then I'd write about research and I tested supplements. And I'd send them off to the lab to make sure that they were what the company said they were. And so people knew that I was really just just so in on wanting to provide good information, solid set the record straight type of type of information. So we had 10s of 1000s of customers through the supplement company, and email came, they started emailing me, hey, Dave, real quick, to get a minute, don't want to be a bother, don't want to be a hassle. But if you could just tell me real quick, how I can lose 30 pounds and keep it off forever. And

Philip Pape 05:37

so on my problems right now, just clicking on reply. Yes.

David Greenwalt 05:40

Look, I don't want to be a pest just to be just real quick, you know. And so the thing is, I was so passionate about wanting to help people get from someplace heavier, less healthy, to someplace leaner and healthier. I gave it the old college try, but it didn't take me long to realize that I was doing them a disservice by trying to answer on the back of a napkin, you know. And so a between 1997 and the the first part of 1999, I wrote my book, it's about 500 pages, and it addressed nutrition and exercise and emotional fitness, because I realized even even back then, with as much or as little as I knew how we want to word it, I knew that emotional fitness was a huge driver of keeping the nutrition and exercise components, you know, on the consistent roads. So got that the internet was here, my gosh, Philip, you got email, you've got two way communication, it's unbelievable. And now you've got this thing called a web and you've got wet a web site you can build. So I built that with dial up no fast internet getting disconnected every 15 minutes. And I couldn't even be on the phone in the home at the same time you were on the internet, and but built the site, and provided an online coaching, you know, venue for people. So we could discuss nutrition, exercise, goal setting motivation, and all the elements. And there can be a username, password protected area, that was a 1999. And I've been doing that ever since I sold the supplement company in the early 2000s. Because I was so passionate about wanting to help people. And I realized that that's what I really wanted to do. I didn't know when I was in my 20s that that's what I wanted to do it it evolved it developed over over many years. But once I really started communicating with people in that area of kind of transformation, I was like this is this is what I was meant to do. This is where my heart is, this is where I'm what I'm truly passionate about. And so that's what I've been doing.

Philip Pape 07:31

That's awesome. You know, a lot of people come through as trainers, for example. It almost sounds like you came the the other direction you had the personal experience, having been a competitor. And then just trying to help people right having those conversations, which even today that's the way it's not like that has changed. What's changed is the technology. Right? Right. And then you talk about the also the need for emotional fitness, which as we know, could be at 90% in some people's journeys of what allows them to be successful. So before we get into some of the mindset stuff and body image, you want to talk about your time as a bodybuilder and power lifter. First of all, were you doing those simultaneously, because that sounds challenging. And then you know, what were those experiences? Like?

David Greenwalt 08:13

Yeah, so, you know, my first bodybuilding competition was when I was in college, and I was maybe 20 I didn't I mean, I knew we you know, you had to cut calories and whatever, but I was just I did it so poorly. And I had no money. I'm live in a dorm room. I was cooking peas in a little electric hot pot. You know, boiling, I'm in my dorm room. And same thing for chicken breasts had no money for you know, lots of grocery shopping. I was just just mentally checked out. I hated it. I got super lean, I was shredded the whole thing. But I hated it so much. I swore back then when I did that I swore I would never do it again. And I didn't do it again for almost 12 years, because I hated it. But I did it so wrong. I just did with what I knew, you know. But anyway, it's but I but it did do it again. But I spent a number of years in there, you know also powerlifting and I didn't, didn't do a bunch of back and forth between powerlifting and bodybuilding. I was in powerlifting for probably about eight or 10 years kind of consistently, you know, built the strength that way. On 510. You know, the highest weight I got to was about 235. And then in bodybuilding, I would compete. Well. I competed at the NPC Illinois State Championships when I was 42. That's the last comp bodybuilding competition I've done. So it's been a while. But I did that at about 190 pounds on stage. And so that was that.

Philip Pape 09:52

And you did that the right way. The second time around. Oh,

David Greenwalt 09:56

that was those years. Yeah. Yes. And that was, you know, four or five other competitions. Haftar so when I did come back to it, I said, Okay, I know a lot more, let's come at it more intelligently. Let's learn, you know, let's put into practice what you now know. And it wasn't, it was it was, I'm not saying it wasn't. I'm not saying that. It wasn't hard, it was hard. But it wasn't like, oh my god, this is just as insane. I never want to do this again.

Philip Pape 10:20

And it sounds like those experiences would be extremely valuable to you as a teacher and to relate to people who have to go through not that extreme level of shredding, although perhaps you work with with people who are performance focused, but just the average person, right, and understanding how to manage hunger and, and muscle loss and all that. But so I think that experience is a good segue into the body image discussion. And let's start with the bigger picture, right? The obesity epidemic. If we can start there, what's driving that? And what can we do about it?

David Greenwalt 10:52

So we're not in a good place. And I think that, you know, most people probably already know that, but just kind of by the numbers, we're sitting at 43% Obesity for adults in the United States right now. We were 15% obese in 1970. We're 43%. Today, we're projected to be 50%. obese by 2030 70% of us are overweight. So things have just gone the wrong direction two and a half times more obese now than we were 52 years ago. And projections to go up I see no reason why we won't be 50% obese by 2030. As a society. I'm always hopeful. I'm gonna make sure I put this right up front that every single person listening as an individual doesn't have to follow that trend as an individual, you can totally win this. But so when I bring bring the gray sky to the conversation, I'm talking societal societal numbers population, new repopulation? You bet so that, you know, that's, that's where we are. So what's driving it? What I will say is, I'm, I'm big on not being in a reductionist, but let me try to simplify it in a way that kind of is reductionist, but kind of not what I see as the the number one driver of obesity are all obesogenic factors that contribute to the overconsumption of ultra processed food, including the fact that ultra processed food is addictive, which then becomes obesogenic and further drives the overconsumption of ultra processed food. So, all of the factors external and internal, and they're in there are so many in our modern society, and obesogenic, I just mean that anything that anything that contributes to behaviors driving obesity, anything, you know, you think advertising, the the number, and location of fast food restaurants, convenience stores, 24 cities,

Philip Pape 12:39

subsidies of subsidies of our food supply that make packaged foods cheaper, yeah,

David Greenwalt 12:43

subsidies Absolutely. Follow the money, you're gonna get a lot of answers to a lot of this. And so you've got, you know, you've got policy and legal being influenced by laws that are created by politicians that have big money from or money from Big Food flowing into them, I call it the Monkey Banana relationship. We're all monkeys going for bananas. And if we understand the relationship of the monkey and the banana, we can much more so understand where things don't normally make sense. If you understand the Monkey Banana relationship, things will make a lot more sense. We may still hate it, we may still disagree with it. But at least you go, Oh, okay, that's what's going on. So money flows into the politicians. We do have organizations that are at the federal government level, and state level and so forth are in charge of kind of health and putting up a message for nutrition and obesity, and health and wellness and all that, that is also influenced by, by big food and money. The American Academy of Nutrition Dietetics, which certifies every registered dietitian in the country is influenced by big food. They are they are invested in big food, big foods invested in them. And if anybody thinks that there isn't, there isn't an influence in their messaging that comes out. I don't know what to say. I just say that there absolutely is all of the and here's the thing, I want to make sure I'm clear on this too, because some people get people get really riled up. I am not someone who says these are evil people, these are malevolent people, these are maliciously people and we should stand in front of our house in which you know, this is not this is not me at all. I think that these are generally really good, decent people just trying to live life and contribute in the way they think is meaningful and data, data data. But in the end

Philip Pape 14:35

there's one there's also the incentives right I mean, behavioral economics its incentives are trying to make a living like the rest of us.

David Greenwalt 14:42

Yes. Yeah. Monkey Banana.

Philip Pape 14:44

There you go.

David Greenwalt 14:46

So So I look at him like that but here's the thing, my my position on it by at least understanding you know, follow the money, the Monkey Banana relationship, however you want to say it is it's about more so helping us to under Stand there relationships so we can adjust our relationship.

Philip Pape 15:03

Right? Right. And it's what we can control, not what we can't.

David Greenwalt 15:07

Right? That's right. And, you know, we can't work. Here's the thing, I think, and I'm a generally very positive person. But I'm a realist. So I think that you and I are probably going to be in our grave before the big societal picture is fixed, but I'm super positive. And again, at the individual level, we don't have to wait for them. We can't wait for a top down approach to fix this. This that's, I'm not saying it's never going to happen. Never say never. We're already seeing changes in the in processed foods as far as what's being put in and what they're doing to it. Because we are voting with our pocketbooks more, we are saying no, to the to some of the 3000 industrial additives that are put in our food supply and what's how it's used, and how it's made. And again, what's the primary driver? What's the Monkey Banana relationship, a big food, it's profit. And if they can profit more on producing a better product for us, then they'll do that. And if we keep voting with our pocketbook, they'll continue to do it. But even so we can't wait for that top down approach. It's going to be a bottom up, and we just, we have to just look out for ourselves as individuals. And if so we're gonna be just fine.

Philip Pape 16:14

Yeah, so there you go. It's, it's the buck stops with the choices we make, at the end of the day, knowing this context, which I imagine a lot of people aren't fully educated or, you know, there's an unconscious level of, you know, herd mentality to this whole thing. And I think, you know, like, podcasts like this, and your message that gets out there, we're doing our part as best we can. And many of us I know, I didn't have necessarily the athletic background you did. But it took me decades to figure this stuff out myself. And I'm the kind of guy like you positive I think I'm in control. I think I know a lot. And still, the ignorance was there despite my best efforts. So yeah, yeah. So now, we want to talk about body body positivity, which is closely linked to obesity, right? Because we talk about outside factors, the obesogenic environment, and then perhaps that leads to the thought, Well, you're a big person, or you're at an obese weight, and he can't really help it. And so we shouldn't criticize, or judge people for how they look, you know, healthy at any size, all of that messaging, which can get thorny and controversial. But I know we're going to treat it with the right nuance here and respect. So what do you think about that movement?

David Greenwalt 17:21

First of all, I I, I generally understand how kind of despondent a lot of people are, who have tried and battle this hundreds of times, where you've you consider false starts and start stops and start on Monday, and you're done by Tuesday and, or whatever, whatever the thing may be. Where in the in the environment we're in with the messaging that is that has been given, again, from top down from top health, government, Top Health edu, Academy of Nutrition, and dietetics supposed to be the trusted nutrition source for dietitians and everything, all things in moderation, eat less and exercise more, never say no to anything, you get a craving, make sure you have some other ways it can do this and do that. There's no such thing as a bad food, blah, blah, blah, all of that messaging, first of all, it hasn't worked. Look at us look where we are 43%, obese versus 15%, they've done a poor job on getting, if that was their goal, if their goal was to help us stay or get healthy, they have failed. So with that in mind, I understand because I work with people every single day who are not completely hopeless, Otherwise, they wouldn't find me. There's still there's still a little bit of hope there. Right? Where they're like, Oh, I almost don't believe that it's possible for me to witness. But I have a 1% tiny little piece of flickering ash in me, you know, that says I just don't want to accept where I'm at. I'm, I'm not happy where I'm at. I'm, you know, I'm dissatisfied in so many ways. But I understand that, since you know, the failure rate is somewhere between 80 and 95%, for keeping it off, you know, and I get that it's like, at some point, I think there's this, this movement is kind of been like, Look, guys, you know, everything that's been put out there hasn't worked. Of course, you know, when you look at 80 to 95%? Well, if we look at the general messaging, again, top down big messaging, big influential groups, their messaging hasn't worked. It's not surprising to me that it hasn't worked because it hasn't addressed what I call kind of six pillars that have to be looked at, you need to look at nutrition, you've got to look at exercise, fine. Everybody looks at that. That's usually what people are thinking, by the way, when they say I know what to do, I just need to do it. And when they when they say I know what to do, I just need to do it. And I know I'm tangent A tangent in here a bit. There's third thinking nutrition exercise, eat a little less and better exercise a little more and better. I got it. But you don't got it that because that's only two of the six. We've got to look at intrinsic motivation, what drives willpower, we've got to look at compulsive eating addiction. We've got to look at emotional fitness and then we've got to see what personal professional and spiritual support might that person need as an individual Those are the six pillars nutrition exercise, intrinsic motivation, compulsive eating addiction, that's one, emotional fitness is a big category and one, and then what level of support will an individual need? Well, I mean, come on, the average person out there who's been battling this, the average person who maybe kind of as you, you segwayed, into, maybe into this, let's just Oh, my God, let's just accept where we are, let's just say that heck with it, you know, we've tried, I've tried hundreds of times, and so have millions of others, we aren't succeeding, we try to apply the messaging that's been given to us, it doesn't work, I haven't been able to make it work for me, and neither of these millions of other people. So and I've seen film, I've seen researchers, I've written researchers who have given up, the researchers have given up, not across the board, but I've seen them here and there, where they're like, basically, the best thing someone can hope for is just don't gain any more. Right. And I'm like, I write a researcher, I'm like, shame on you, for giving up Shame on you, for you with the education you have. And all the resources you have to, to not looking at, I'm going to call it the six pillars, but looking at the other factors that are almost never addressed, but have to be addressed. If we want to win this once. And for all this can be one, we I see it every day with my own clients, other people see it with their clients. But when people really have put into place, what's really necessary to win this, this absolutely can be won. Back to your your kind of your state and your question. I don't blame people for being at a point where they're like, man, we just, I just want to at least feel good about life, you know, I'm gonna feel good about where I'm at. So from a body positivity position like that, I very much am sympathetic to it. I am going to say I understand it the best I can. And but even so, you know, we can we can kind of take it from here.

Philip Pape 21:53

Yeah, so it sounds like the the message here is, we're so conditioned to failure. We're so conditioned to everything having that we've tried hasn't worked. And even if we think we're doing the right thing, nutrition and training, that's only to have, like you said, the six pillars actually like the way you organize that because I haven't heard it quite structured that way. But it's complete. I can imagine a pie chart or something like that, right? Filling in the whole picture. The motivation, the compulsive eating, the emotional and support side are here, right? They're massive, even so when you throw in the nutrition and training, I'm sure you've seen that people don't really understand what the right thing is to do. Many times, even with nutrition and training does that truth right? It is.

David Greenwalt 22:34

And so a lot of people come in and go, I know what to do, I just need to do it nutrition exercise. Got it. Just give me the seven day diet and exercise plan. Dave, thanks so much little accountability, again, and I'll be on my way. And, and here's the thing is that first of all, I don't know what you know about nutrition, you may know some things and maybe you've got it pretty solid, but then again, maybe you don't there's so much misinformation out there. You know, and I don't know what you've consumed, I don't know what you've read listen to. So first of all, we really have to make sure without being dogmatic, overly rigid, and all this kind of stuff, we need to make sure that they have a real understanding of nutrition for the purposes of health and fitness. And the same thing for exercise do they have what they need to be able to perform exercise in a way that's gonna be meaningful to them and, and promoting of healthspan and lifespan and all the things they want out of it? Whatever that may be physique and whatever it may be? So let's assume that we get that to that point. And if I ask someone Hey, what's general what do we record? What are we generally mean by you know, good nutrition? What do we generally mean by proper amount of proper type and amount of exercise? And let's say they can regurgitate that back? Great, they bought but they're sitting at two right now. Got it?

Philip Pape 23:47

Yeah, but you and but your process, I like your process, because and you use use the free student member when you talk about your, your clients of getting to getting them to that baseline, right? Because you'll you'll have someone come to you and I get this too, if interested clients. Well, but I'm doing paleo and running a lot. So I've got that covered. Now, why is everything not working? Like okay, we have to peel back and get to the premise of all this first and rebuild the foundation. So listening to podcasts like this will get you there and listen to what David has to say. All right, um, you know, I want to talk about fit shaming, but I think there's a lot more to cover in the on the on the fat shaming or the body positivity, whatever phrases we want to use. On the mindset side, you mentioned this defeatist mindset, right? Where people have basically given up or maybe they have that flicker of hope, but it's close. And a lot of people criticize someone for not having willpower, right? That's the common thing like if this is all you have to do, and we've established that the even the basic education isn't there, but let's say everybody knew the right thing to do. You're just not doing it right. You just have to whatever it is, eat less exercise more whatever. It's just energy balance. We know energy balance is true, but but to say that and that you're lacking willpower and people don't just do it. What are your thoughts on that? You know, approach.

David Greenwalt 25:02

So yeah, very, very strong thoughts on that. And I but I want to just plant this and if we don't get to it, we don't. But I want to plant this that I that while I am 100% 100% all in that every single person has certain inalienable rights, to love respect, if you're just trying to be a good person, I don't care what size you are, I don't care at all zero care about that, other than the concerns I have, with regard to obesity in the issues that that relate to that from a health perspective. But as far as a human being perspective, zero, love, respect, consideration, empathy, all the things that we as humans should be just granted period for being alive if we're trying to be a good person. I'm 100%. All in on that. And if we if we go back to that, I'll talk about the two concerns I have that have nothing to do with whether someone's good or bad. You know, it's not a judgment type thing, but just concerns I have and what is obesity and all that. With regard to your your question, that you just asked, Why don't people just do it? What about willpower? One of the things, you know, when I was telling you that, you know, back in 1997, when people were emailing me, hey, Dave, real quick, if you get a chance, no big deal. 30 pounds, keep it off forever. That's still a mindset that's here today, where it's minimized. They don't understand what it's going to take. They don't understand what's involved with all that we have going on and how obesogenic our society is and all the forces working against them, when they don't know what things to look at the, let's say the six pillars, but they also don't they also minimize what it's going to take everybody eats, everybody moves. It shouldn't be that hard. And we all know, here's the thing, I always say, I can come to your city and stand on tallest building with a bullhorn and scream, eat less and exercise more, and people will look up and go, I know. I mean, we there's a, there's an inherent understanding of energy balance, we have to take in less energy than we expend. If we do we'll lose weight, hopefully most of it fat. If we take in more energy, you know, then we expend, we're gonna gain and if we take an equal amount that will stay the same. I don't know what it is 80% 90% of the people if you ask them that they're good. Yeah, I know. So the thing that they're missing, though, is everything else. All that's left is all the rest. And so, and all the rest is a lot so one of them is they minimize the why they're going to need you know, the why is so critical. Why power drives willpower? And kind of proof and evidence just they is the thought exercise is people think they don't have willpower. And I don't think that someone that's 300 pounds, 400 pounds, I don't think I don't think they don't have what they have willpower. They've demonstrated it over and over and over again. If they weren't this present example, if anybody works for someone else, do you? When's the last time you were late for work? Good point. Yeah. I mean, it takes willpower my definition. My adapted definition is the the ability to do what needs to be done when it needs to be done whether you feel like it or not. You go to work regardless. Well, what about when you're sick go to work. What about when you're tired? Go to work. What about when you got two hours sleep and the kid was crying, crying all last night with a fever go to work? What about when you know, you just got done crying yourself for 20 minutes because there was a emotional upheaval in the family you lost your love, you go to work, it's you go to work. And not only do you go to work, you go to work on time. And not only do you go to work on time a lot, a lot of days you're at least somewhat productive you know, your job and so you do these things and that's a huge demonstration of willpower and you have it Why do people do that? That's the answer their Why is incredibly strong for keeping the job. All the things that gives them money is one of the things but also you know feelings of contribution and satisfaction and community or whatever it may be. There's a huge why for why people go to work. Same thing if people have young children when was the last time you didn't pick up your kid from school when they needed to be picked up? Did you just say Nah, I'm not in the mood today. Of course you didn't you went because even though you were tired sick just had an argument with your spouse. Whatever the thing is, you went picked up the child because your why for making sure your child knows they can count on you is so strong. You will do it no matter what. You have an advanced degree. It's hard as hell. Did you always you always go to class study and do the things you needed to do when you were in the mood? Absolutely not. That took incredible willpower anything hard long, that isn't necessarily naturally in your wheelhouse. Or that you would just kind of choose to do no matter what some Things you're just passionate about right? Things we are like nobody has to tell me to do XYZ. I love it so much even so there's still a strong why there, but it's just more something that somebody is more naturally inclined to want to do. Things that aren't like that. You've got to incredibly crazy why and why powers driving willpower? When people come at obesity or weight management, they minimize that. They come out and you say, Why do you want to do this had just want to get a little healthier? That's not gonna work. That's not enough. It's a start. It's nothing wrong with it. It's just not developed. It hasn't been really drilled down into this, we have to get the why incredibly, emotionally driving strong, much stronger than what people realize. And so it's a third, it's a third pillar, and it's minimized, it's and if there's a work, it's not going to work. Why because the obesogenic environment, the factors that are working against us are so strong, so powerful. If we have the why we can persist. You know, we can persist. Even though life is throwing us curveballs, we can persist. Without exception, we can persist, no matter what happens, we may not always do it, right. We're not always going to wake up every day and slay the dragon, we're not going to do it. But we can do it much more often, much more consistently if our Y is strong. So one of the things we do is help our student members develop their why fully develop their y, so that they are really ready to wake up and face the day and be like, okay, yes, this isn't, this isn't something that I kind of want to do or that I kind of thought about, or it'd be nice. I have to have this. This is something I have to do

31:44

now to Philippe and hopefully for a long time, I don't know how passionate he is about healthy eating, and body strength. And that's why choosing to be my coach. I was no stranger to a dieting and body training. But I always struggled to do it sustainably really helped me prioritize my goals with evidence based recommendations, or not over stressing my body and not feeling like I'm starving. In six months, I lost 45 pounds without drastically changing the foods I enjoy. Now I have a more balanced diet, I weight train consistently. And most importantly, I do it sustainably if a scientifically sound healthy diet and a Langstrom body is what you're looking for. Philip Pape is your guy.

Philip Pape 32:29

I just want to explore that one one later, deeply. Because it's a common thing I see where people are asked what their goal is. And their goal is, like you said it's at the superficial level, it's almost the method that they're they're regurgitating is the goal, you know, the the losing fat or the getting fit, right? It's almost a method or a small piece of the whole process, where the Why might be, like you said, emotionally tied to being a role model for their kids and being there when they're older and being able to enjoy these activities that they couldn't enjoy otherwise, et cetera. How do you what kind of activity or exercise do you go through that maybe the listener can try on their own?

David Greenwalt 33:07

So you know, one of the things that one of the things that you can do to at least start with is, you know, you want to consider, you know, kind of certain categories, you know, how might your why this kind of just be thinking about these things? How might your y affect family relationships, professional aspirations, career aspirations? We know there's bias there. How might it affect aspirational things? What are things that you've put on hold? Or is there anything socially that you want to do more of that you've put on hold or that you avoid, because you don't want to be in that situation? That's so common. So those are some things to kind of think of, you know, category and then also physicality things, I want sculpted shoulders, and I'm not talking body builder, but you know, let's just say, you know, a common thing for a woman again, it varies as are stars in the skies, but it is the common thing that is a woman wants to wear be able to wear a sleeveless, I'd like to be able to wear a sleeveless and feel good about my shoulders and arms. That's all I don't need to get on stage but just to feel good about what I'm wearing. I want to be able to shop my closet, I've got four sizes of clothes in my closet, I don't need to go buy more clothes, I just want to fit into the ones I fit into. So those are kind of physicality things. So that's a part of it. Kind of looking at all these various categories where here's the thing, weight loss, transformation can't fix everything, it can't, but what it can do are the things that we should focus on with respect to the transformation what can it actually impact? Will it affect mental health? Likely will it affect positivity likely might that impact relationships, very likely, might that impact communication? Yes, might you feel better feel more confident? So, just as a practical exercise, just as a starter, something that I will say is start with? I want blank so Fill that blank. I want blank. So that blank, that's like a, it's like a chapter heading on your whiteboard. Okay, you know.

Philip Pape 35:11

And that's important because the first blank is where people often stop. Like, that's why I want blank No, but why you want blank,

David Greenwalt 35:18

right? So that what and then you can start to drill down by saying, let me see if I can just give them a quick example, I want to let's say they're going to use a number, I want to weigh 160 pounds, so that I fit comfortably in a normal airplane seat. Because people can take it for granted. But if you're, if you're not large, you can take for granted. But if you're large, that's something that I've had, I can't tell you how many clients just something thing I want to fit I want to fit in. So let's just say that's,

Philip Pape 35:52

that's the thing. No, this is great. Yeah, it's sorry, we 160

David Greenwalt 35:56

pounds so I can fit comfortably. And in that center, not an aisle seat. So I can fit in the center seat of, you know, an airplane. So that what Yeah, what do I say? So that I can do that. Alright, so then we go. So the next question would be, it's important to me that I can fit comfortably in an airplane seat, because what follows the because so that starts to write the chapter. So the chapter heading is I want blank, so that blank, but we start to write the chapter when we we look at whatever followed so that we look at that, whatever that thing is. And we ask this question, we say it this way, it's important to me that I can fit comfortably in an airplane seat, just as an example. Because, and then you start to expand on that. And then that starts to get emotional. You know, sometimes the I want. So that is emotional. But that starts to get emotional, because then we start drilling down, what does it mean to you to be able to fit in an airplane seat comfortably? What does that mean? You know, what does that what difference does that make? Who cares? Well, I'll tell you why. Because of this, I mean, so you start filling in the blank on that. And you can start adding multiple supportive statements to the chapter. And you can just kind of, you can kind of start building it that way, and start drilling down. So there are lots of do's and don'ts. But basically, you know, as far as getting a start, that's a good way to start. And it's something that most people have never heard.

Philip Pape 37:26

Yeah, I love that. You put it into a, you put it into a narrative, a story. And it's, there's a drier version of that, that I learned in the engineering world called five whys. And it's a root cause technique where you simply just keep asking why, which is effectively what you're doing. But you're doing it in a way that tells an entire story. You could say, I want this, why? Because of this, well, why because of this, and you keep going down that you're effectively doing that. But it's a very powerful tool, because you get to that root cause. Yeah, and the other and the other thing you alluded to when some of your examples is, it doesn't have to be I mean, the reason is yours. The reason is your like, don't let anybody judge you for it. It could be a vanity reason. It could be, you know, a very powerful reason. One question I've asked people is what what would you like to be doing when you're 90? Like, what physical feat would you like to accomplish when we're talking strength? What do you want to still be able to do when you're 90 and then kind of let that drive you as well? It's good stuff, David. All right. Yes, stuff.

David Greenwalt 38:23

Yeah. Can I just say on the vanity thing, it's a common thing. You just I hadn't thought of it. But you mentioned. And here's the thing. A lot of people will stop short on even putting in their why? What they really want, because they're afraid they're going to sound vain. But here's the thing. Vanity is excessive pride. excessive pride. Just because you want to feel proud, doesn't mean you have excessive pride. It doesn't mean you're standing on a perch, it doesn't mean you're a narcissist. It doesn't mean that you are all the negative things where you know, you are now looking down on people and you're just feeling pride. I feel proud that I accomplished this. I feel proud. I feel proud. Is it okay? If I feel proud that our three grown kids are amazing. I would think it's okay, if I as a parent, feel proud of my kids, and that I'm so proud of them. And I'm so proud, I can be proud. I hope that we as parents, least did what we did to contribute in some way to them, you know, being good. And I don't see anything wrong with that. Why are you feeling good about that without being overblown? Do I have plenty of things that I could have could have would have showed up? You know, raising our kids. Yes, I still have awareness of that just because I feel proud about it. But why can't we feel that way? Why can't we put that stuff into our why? And I say do it put it in there. What do you really want you know, things that you will feel proud about? Put it in there. It's not excessive unless it is and and unless You're judging others and pointing right looking down on others and things like that, if you're not doing that, and you're living, let live, do it, put it in there.

Philip Pape 40:09

And I love that that is really good. I mean, just the fact that vanity is excessive pride, but you just want to get to, you just want to get to a baseline that would make you satisfied with what you've done in life. Right? You know, or even a little more than that, but not excessively. Right. And you alluded to that. Don't Don't judge other people. But also, if you're listening to this, or, you know, someone that is trying to improve their life, for whatever reason, let's not shame them either. And I see this happen in in groups or families, particularly where everybody's struggling a bit right with their health. So one person decides to be the outlier. Yeah, and and do something different. And all of a sudden, you know, you're weird. Why are you doing this? There's no way you could get healthier. Look at us as the family tree, you're making us look bad, or just just a lack of, you know, an apathy about it. Yeah, the list goes on. And people listening in you, David know exactly what I'm talking about. Yeah. And there's a phrase, I guess, fit shaming, we can call it whatever we want. It's that double standard people criticize others for trying to get in shape, improve their health, and so on. Yeah, your thoughts about that?

David Greenwalt 41:14

First of all, there is a bit of a double standard, I'll take, I'll take the compliment that it mostly is, even if it's left handed to a degree, I'll take the compliment in a day of the week over living the alternative. And that's just me, each person do their thing. But to be able to be fit enough where someone feels there, they can be comfortable enough to comment. I'll take that. And I'll take it and listen. I'm not saying that when I take it, I don't go oh, my god, are you? You know, of course I do. You know, a day, you know, I don't see any protein in that brownie. You're getting ready at the family function? I'm sure that's you're sure that's got protein in it, Dave? No, no, it, it doesn't doesn't have much protein now, you know. So. And that's not something you would say, I shouldn't say that there are people who are cruel. So in my mind, I can hardly picture because I just wouldn't do it. I would never say to someone who is obvious. They're struggling with their weight data, data. Sure. You want that extra piece of cake, Sally or whatever, at the fan. Oh, my God. But I know there are cruel people out there. And there are people that are cruel that do that. So I'm not saying it doesn't happen to them. It does. But what you're saying, you know, it definitely does happen. I think it mostly or a lot of times is not mean spirited. Sometimes it is the person themselves, who says it may be feeling whatever they're feeling about their own journey. They aren't feeling as competent in their own journey. And so or, or they just kind of feel like maybe the person is that they're talking to has a level of fitness, where they're not saying they think this way, but the so this may not be the gist, right? But it's almost like they're wearing a coat of armor. You know, because you're just you've got it together. You're intimidated, maybe. Yeah, yeah. And so you'll be able to take this and you'll know how I mean it, and you won't be offended and it won't hurt your feelings. And but sometimes it does. But even so I'd still rather be in the position I am and go. Alright, I gotta, again, I'm going to use emotional fitness to process the sting, you know, someone saying something, because of the double standard or whatever, and just try to get on. You get on with life. But does it happen? Oh, yeah.

Philip Pape 43:22

Yeah, yeah. It's just a very interesting thing. Because you do talk about one of the pillars being support. And I'm always thinking about, you know, the people you surround yourself with, like you said, if it's, if it's innocent, if it's not intended that way, and you'll you'll probably know that there's nuances and conversation all the time. And again, like you said, if you're doing the things you feel are right, for you with pride, and not excessive pride, you just move on, and you probably have built up some level of not not armor in the way you were intending it but our good armor against this. Resilience, right?

David Greenwalt 43:53

Yes, yeah. Yes. I, and just, you know, I think again, I think generally, generally speaking, if you're really super fit, you're going to stand out. And because that's not the norm, I mean, if you're truly fit, you know, we can define we can define, you know, health related physical fitness, we can define it, you know, cardio, respiratory endurance, muscular endurance, muscle, muscular strength, flexibility, body composition, are the five components. If you have all of those high cardio, muscular endurance, muscular strength, body composition, flexibility, you have all of those high, you're going to look like it, right Oh, those are high, you're going to look like Man, that guy is fit or that gals fit, you know, and you're gonna stand out because that is not the norm. And you're gonna stand out in a positive way. And I think most people most will look at that person and go, way to go, you know, now that may not be what comes out of their mouth.

Philip Pape 44:47

No, but it's true. You're right. You're right. It was

David Greenwalt 44:49

a piece of that. I'm at least I think for most people are who go Dang. Okay, you know, maybe they don't think they can do it. Maybe they're like, Oh, I could never do that but go for you, but it also may still come out when you have that piece of brownie at the family function, you know, how many protein there?

Philip Pape 45:06

Oh, hopefully it's motivated to I mean, at least I tried to look at it that way. And anybody that is doing things that I would aspire to get closer to, even though again, we shouldn't compare ourselves to people, because everyone's different, but at least, you know, using it as a positive of like, okay, I'm gonna take those thoughts and I know, make them into something that works for me. All right, so I have a whole bunch more questions, but we don't have a ton more time. So I'm going to, I'm going to focus on maybe we were going to talk about things like food addiction and flexible eating. So maybe a little talk about the actual food specifics. You mentioned, the, you know, no food is off limits approach, or the, you know, there's no good or bad food. We have the concepts of flexible dieting, which for some people, it's different things, I think it is like whatever Alan Aragon's kind of path of flexible dieting, where it's not anarchy, you know, it's not, If It Fits Your Macros so much as a macro and calorie guidelines within which you have some flexibility, but you're gonna limit your processed foods to an extent, just go I mean, tell me what your what your thoughts are on the topic,

David Greenwalt 46:09

you bet. So, you know, my thing as far as again, applying these moral, you know, assessments to what we eat, it's good, it's bad. I don't healthy, unhealthy, I don't I look at it, are we eating real food and doesn't work for you. So, you know, I think that, again, I've adapted a working definition of real food, based off of a food classification system called the Nova food classification, and developed by Professor out of Brazil been around 1012 years now, it's, it's making the rounds, and has been in the research now for quite some time, very heavily being looked at respected, nothing's perfect. It's not either, but I really like what Nova food classification looks at, because they look heavily at the processing. And so my working definition from theirs again, you'd have to, they're a semester long things that would have to get into their breakdown. But mine is this real food is whole or minimally processed, edible parts of plant and animal, where if anything's been added to it, it's whole or minimally processed ingredients commonly found in kitchens. So me say it again, quick, because I think it just kind of people like what he just said, whole are mentally process edible parts of plant and animal where if anything's been added to it, it's whole or minimally processed, ingredients commonly found in kitchens. So, you know, it's, you know, you think about your single ingredient things very common, you know, your single ingredient, animal based products, or single ingredient, plant based products, sure, but there's also combination products that are that are absolutely just fine, too, you can have a merit, a jarred marinara on the shelf. And the ingredients can be tomatoes, basil, oregano, garlic, you know, blah, blah, blah. And as long as those are the ingredients, it's what we call real food. So basically, everything else, even that is at least minimally processed. But almost everything else, if it's not real food is ultra processed. Not everything, there's nuance to it. And so we want to minimize that our goal is to try it out. Right now, Americans are eating 60 to 90% of what they eat is ultra processed food 60 to 90%. It's crazy. And so what we want to do, and that's what's happened is that's crowded out real food, it's crowded out, all we want to do is we want to reverse that. And I'm not saying we eliminate Ultra processed food, but I'd like to get real food up to 90%. That's like the pinnacle, you know, 90% intake, real food you go. That's crazy, David, you're insane, dude. Well, that is how we ate for hundreds of 1000s of years. It's exactly how we ate for hundreds of 1000s year we ate real food. It's what we're designed to eat our body knows what to do with it. And as I said at the top of this, what's the primary contributing factor to obesity in the United States, all obesogenic factors that contribute to the overconsumption of all processed foods? Yes. You know, so we kind of came full circle there. But So with regard to kind of what you were saying, I'm flexible, you know, I said this to somebody just the other day, they're like, Okay, somebody was trying to kind of help create kind of a vision. This is a different podcast, and their thing was just their whole focus was different, but they were trying to create a vision of things, you know, to avoid, they're like, Okay, I would want people to avoid, you know, pizza and cookies. And I said, Well, it depends. I mean, if you're eating 90% real food, and as a part of your 10% you can have pizza or cookies, or whatever it is, and remember, is it real food and does it work for you? People will pound their fist. You can do it with what you can do with salted peanuts. They'll pound their fists and go to real food. Dave, I'm good to go. Does it work for you? It doesn't work for you if you eat the whole jar.

Philip Pape 49:47

Right? Does it work for you your goals? Does it make you feel good? All right.

David Greenwalt 49:52

Do you get gastrointestinal distress does it give you gas and diarrhea? Is a cloud your your brain get foggy afterwards? Okay. Even if it's real food, if it doesn't work for you, we got to figure out what we're going to do about it. So, so yeah, we have to look at, you know, all all of these things, to really, really get a handle on what's really going on. So real food 90%. That's why generally, let's put it this way, at least, I wouldn't, I wouldn't say that categorically anything's off limits, it's going to vary person to person, I just would like to see real food crowd out Ultra processed foods.

Philip Pape 50:30

That is that is exactly the phrase I use. I love it that you're saying that. And it often starts for me with protein, because people are underfed on protein. And the argument I like to make is if you go to the grocery store and find whatever sources of protein you can, it's very hard to find very much processed foods that are protein, you know, high enough and protein and you inevitably have to go to the animal and plant sources. It kind of you know, you're not thinking Whole Foods unnecessarily consciously you think and then you get protein, what's going to serve me what's right for me? Yeah. And then it starts to crowd out other things. Well, if I need to get 180 grams of protein, I'm not going to have too much room for these things. Yeah. Now what about? So like, whey protein is always brought up with me? And I think that's pretty much a whole food. But don't tell me what you think. Yeah, it's arguable. It is.

David Greenwalt 51:15

It's it. I think it's in a in a bit of a nuanced I think that, again, if you take a let's just say, everybody says whey protein, what whey protein, so spin it around, let's look at the ingredients. If the ingredients are, you know, whole or minimally processed, edible parts of plant and animal were the only thing added to it is holer, minimally processed ingredients commonly found in kitchens, then you can say it's processed, but it's we can still possibly call it real food. But if you get like a flavored whey protein, and now it's got 20,

Philip Pape 51:41

suka artificial flavors and all that yet

David Greenwalt 51:44

Ultra processed for sure. Whey Protein and and lecithin as the emulsifier. You know, I mean, I don't know what Nova would say on that. I think Nova might say processed, maybe they wouldn't say Ultra process. Because, you know, in my years back when I was talking about I think I talked about when I had the supplement company. Yeah, when I had the supplement company, you know, I actually went to Minnesota, I went to land a lakes in Minnesota, because I had a protein produced for me and I toured their plant, I saw how it was made. And if we're talking about drying, and we're talking about filtering, and we're talking about things like that, where we haven't added in things we haven't added in acid washes, and we haven't added things in but it's a drying and a filtering process. I think it you know, you could probably, if it's just an unflavored whey, you know, or it's whey isolate and cocoa, okay, commonly found in kitchens, fine. You know, we could say it's maybe it's just processed, but not Ultra processed. By the way, what that thing you and I are talking about right there that specific food is not the reason that we have obesity.

Philip Pape 52:52

That's a great point. It's like if people bring up fruit, you know, I'm like fruit is not the cause of obesity.

David Greenwalt 52:58

That is not, it is not? I know, no,

Philip Pape 53:02

that is a good point, like, do we even need to talk much about it? That's more of an optimization thing, right? You've got things, then you're like, Okay, let me go to more. Even even myself. I know, I occasionally have the big tubs of the cheaper protein because I gotta get it in. Right? Yeah, you know, I should probably spend a little more occasionally in the stuff that doesn't have the extra ingredients. Alright, so how about, I just I'll ask you my penultimate question that I ask all guests, and that is what one question Did you wish I had asked, and what is your answer?

David Greenwalt 53:30

Wow. You know, I don't have because I was able to at least mention the six pillars. It's important that people know that any one of those could be the showstopper. And I'll reverse I'll reverse the sentence. It could also be the difference maker in success. So I don't think you've missed any questions. I think that okay. Oh, all right. I'll do this one, because we looked at body positivity. What's my concern with body positivity Dave?

Philip Pape 54:03

What's your? What's your answer?

David Greenwalt 54:06

So my thing is, it's, again, not the person. Absolutely not human inalienable rights. Let them be, don't judge them, you know, ever right? You also don't know if they're healthy. Right? You know, you can tell by looking at them that they may be obese, you can tell by looking at them that maybe their waist circumference as a female is greater and 35 greater than 40 is a male got it? But that's only one factor. So instead of instead of looking at someone and saying that person is obviously unhealthy, because there'll be you don't know, you can't tell you can't see their biomarkers. You can't see the measurements other than the physical one, you know, on the outside, so why am I concerned one, I'm concerned when someone does reach the obese status and I'm concerned because obesity is a known risk factor for increased incidence of cancer stroke, heart disease, diabetes, systemic inflammation, dementia, naphthyl D, non alcoholic fatty liver disease, arthritis. as autoimmune disorders and eventual long term care, and that's kind of part one at the individual level, I'm concerned for the individual I'm with Body Mass Index defining obesity and a body mass index being 30, or greater being obese. And then there are three classes of obesity 30 to 34.9 is class 135 to 35 39.9 is class two and 40. And up is class three, the moral beasts, the more likely these things are to occur, I am not as concerned and I am not someone, as a coach who says, You've got to be, you've got to have a BMI of 25 or less, which was, you know, with under 2024 point now, 18.5 to 24.9 is the healthy normal weight range by BMI. It's the 30. And up because the research starts to get much stronger, where we start to not equivocate so much, we can equivocate it with a BMI of 2728, whatever, and maybe the very, very lowest end of obesity. But once that starts to decline, then my concerns that I just raised our concerns for that reason their health is going to suffer. And then part two of that is we all are sharing the cost of the increased cost of obesity, there is an increased cost of obesity, and so I'm concerned for the individual. But I also think it's unsustainable as a society for us to continue in the direction we are, and just get to the point where we don't, as individuals, try and solve it for ourselves first, because we can't wait for the top down, but eventually top down doing what they can to try to help, you know, bring the obesity epidemic down, because you're looking at obesity in the United States costing us on what $173 million, you know, extra year, someone who's obese, that cost them health care wise, $3,508 more per year for that individual. And that's if they don't have lots of medications and in need of surgeries and kind of chronic medical care. It's it's very, very expensive to us all. And you know, Medicare and Medicaid, pay a huge portion of the increased medical costs. Who pays for Medicare and Medicaid? We all do. There's a shared costs tax base, you name it, but there's a shared cost in that. And so we're all paying more, I'm gonna say not because individuals have your failures as individuals, you're weak willed. I hope I've gotten the message across. I don't see that at all. The messaging from top down has failed. We've created this environment that's incredibly obesogenic we have given them the wrong information. Well, not enough of the right information. Some of its right not enough of the right information. It's half cocked, it's it's influenced and biased by, by money, the Monkey Banana relationship. So we've got these millions of people that are suffering in obesity, with huge costs, huge eventual health and lifestyle and healthspan cost to them as individuals, and then huge costs to us, which I see is unsustainable. So I'm only really concerned on the kind of the body positivity side is for one, knock it off, if you're just a mean person, okay? Don't you know, I don't care who you're doing it to stop it. No one deserves that. But I am concerned for them as individuals, I'm concerned for us as a society because of the increased costs. And what is actually paying for this. And again, huge, a huge amount of it is Medicare, Medicaid.

Philip Pape 58:29

Great message. And I think Is it true that anyone, no matter what state they're in today can improve their health?

David Greenwalt 58:37

Oh, gosh, here's, I'm gonna take it a step further. Yes. And I'm gonna say this, no matter what you've been told, no matter what your family history is, no matter what your genetics are, no matter what you've been dealt or handed, you know, in life, I want to say, Please don't give up because you absolutely can win this, you can get to any healthy weight you want. And you can live there, plus or minus 10 pounds, whatever, somewhere in that range. No one lives there perfectly. You can live there for life. I don't care if you're 60 listening to this, I don't care if you're 19 you can get there. And you can live there for life. It's it's not a wonder if you've struggled it's not a wonder if what with what you've heard, what top down messaging has been that you haven't achieved it yet. But don't give up because you absolutely can't. You haven't

Philip Pape 59:29

done it yet. And you can That's the message and that's a great message. So thank you David for coming on. Where can listeners learn more about you and your work?

David Greenwalt 59:37

I'll keep it simple when I when I when I when I name this leanness lifestyle, you know, 24 years ago I don't you know if I didn't know what I was gonna be doing it this long. I probably would have made it a little easier. So just made the website a little easier, and that'd be the place to go. All our links to social are there too, but it's L L university.com.

Philip Pape 59:55

l l university.com. I'll put those in the show notes so listeners can find you, David This was a pleasure. We covered so many topics just scratched the surface, I feel, but I really thank you for coming on the show.

David Greenwalt 1:00:06

You bet it was a pleasure. Thanks for having me.

Philip Pape 1:00:09

Philip Pape 5/5/23 Philip Pape 5/5/23

Ep 67: Body Positivity, Fit Shaming, Obesity, Food Addiction, and Keeping Your Self-Promises with David Greenwalt

Today we are diving into body positivity and fit shaming, the obesity epidemic, food addiction, willpower and staying on track, and the connection between food and mental health.

Joining me is Certified Health Coach, fitness expert, and author David Greenwalt. He is a husband, father, former police officer, gym owner, competitive state-level bodybuilder, and powerlifter.

David is the author of the book "The Leanness Lifestyle," which provides a comprehensive guide for men and women looking to transform their bodies and permanently lose weight.

In 1997, at age 32 and a body weight of 235 pounds, David discovered an evidence-based approach for getting off his excess 50 pounds and keeping it off for 25 years and counting. Since 1999, through his company Leanness Lifestyle University, he has been helping student members from every walk of life lose excess fat, keep the muscle, and manage this crazy life.

__________
Book a FREE 30-minute call with Philip here.
__________

Today you’ll learn all about:

[2:03] David's backstory
[8:01] His experience as a bodybuilder and powerlifter
[10:39] What's driving obesity and what we can do about it
[16:50] The body-positivity movement and obesity
[24:20] The defeatist mindset, why power and willpower
[31:45] Max thanks Philip for helping him prioritize his health and dropping 45 Lbs
[32:35] How to start with your "why"
[37:56] Vanity is excessive pride
[40:10] David's thoughts about fit-shaming
[45:28] Food addiction, flexible dieting, no-food-is-off-limits approach, ultra-processed food, and the NOVA food classification
[51:07] Does whey protein pass the NOVA classification?
[53:42] David's concern about body positivity, obesity, and the cost of obesity
[59:36] Learn more about David
[1:00:06] Outro

Episode resources:

David’s website: Leanness Lifestyle University
Youtube channel: https://www.youtube.com/@ilivell
David's book: The Leanness Lifestyle

FREE 30-minute nutrition call with Philip ⬇️
https://witsandweights.com/free-call

Learn about 1-on-1 coaching ⬇️
https://witsandweights.com/coaching

Ask Philip anything ⬇️

🥩 Download Ultimate Macros Guide and 50 High-Protein Recipes here

🫙 Get high-quality 1st Phorm supplements here

👏 ENJOY THE SHOW?

⭐ Leave a review here
💁‍♀️ Become a supporter and get a shout out here
👥 Join our free community for guides, live trainings, & challenges here

Have you followed the podcast?

Get notified of new episodes. Use your favorite podcast platform or one of the buttons below. Then hit “Subscribe” or “Follow” and you’re good to go!

Transcript

David Greenwalt 00:00

Philip Pape 00:23

David Greenwalt 01:41

so much for having me. It's a pleasure to be here.

Philip Pape 01:44

David Greenwalt 02:04

Philip Pape 04:08

and and I would scream and this is how it was done back then this is

David Greenwalt 04:12

Philip Pape 05:37

so on my problems right now, just clicking on reply. Yes.

David Greenwalt 05:40

Philip Pape 07:31

David Greenwalt 08:13

Philip Pape 09:52

And you did that the right way. The second time around. Oh,

David Greenwalt 09:56

Philip Pape 10:20

David Greenwalt 10:52

Philip Pape 12:39

subsidies of subsidies of our food supply that make packaged foods cheaper, yeah,

David Greenwalt 12:43

Philip Pape 14:35

there's one there's also the incentives right I mean, behavioral economics its incentives are trying to make a living like the rest of us.

David Greenwalt 14:42

Yes. Yeah. Monkey Banana.

Philip Pape 14:44

There you go.

David Greenwalt 14:46

Philip Pape 15:03

Right? Right. And it's what we can control, not what we can't.

David Greenwalt 15:07

Philip Pape 16:14

David Greenwalt 17:21

Philip Pape 21:53

David Greenwalt 22:34

Philip Pape 23:47

David Greenwalt 25:02

31:44

Philip Pape 32:29

David Greenwalt 33:07

Philip Pape 35:11

And that's important because the first blank is where people often stop. Like, that's why I want blank No, but why you want blank,

David Greenwalt 35:18

Philip Pape 35:52

that's the thing. No, this is great. Yeah, it's sorry, we 160

David Greenwalt 35:56

Philip Pape 37:26

David Greenwalt 38:23

Philip Pape 40:09

David Greenwalt 41:14

Philip Pape 43:22

David Greenwalt 43:53

Philip Pape 44:47

No, but it's true. You're right. You're right. It was

David Greenwalt 44:49

Philip Pape 45:06

David Greenwalt 46:09

Philip Pape 49:47

Right? Does it work for you your goals? Does it make you feel good? All right.

David Greenwalt 49:52

Philip Pape 50:30

David Greenwalt 51:15

Philip Pape 51:41

suka artificial flavors and all that yet

David Greenwalt 51:44

Philip Pape 52:52

That's a great point. It's like if people bring up fruit, you know, I'm like fruit is not the cause of obesity.

David Greenwalt 52:58

That is not, it is not? I know, no,

Philip Pape 53:02

David Greenwalt 53:30

Philip Pape 54:03

What's your? What's your answer?

David Greenwalt 54:06

Philip Pape 58:29

Great message. And I think Is it true that anyone, no matter what state they're in today can improve their health?

David Greenwalt 58:37

Philip Pape 59:29

done it yet. And you can That's the message and that's a great message. So thank you David for coming on. Where can listeners learn more about you and your work?

David Greenwalt 59:37

Philip Pape 59:55

David Greenwalt 1:00:06

You bet it was a pleasure. Thanks for having me.

Philip Pape 1:00:09

Philip Pape 5/2/23 Philip Pape 5/2/23

Ep 66: Sustaining Fat Loss Results and Maximizing Recovery for The Long Game with Jeff Hoehn

Today, we dive into weight maintenance and recovery with our special guest Jeff Hoehn. Jeff brings a wealth of experience in nutrition and training, shedding light on the importance of managing fatigue and living at maintenance, which is often overlooked or misunderstood. We share evidence-based strategies for long-term success in sustaining fat loss and maintaining strength as you age.

Jeff, the owner of JH Health & Fitness, transformed his own physique through various building and fat loss phases, bodybuilding competitions, and injury rehab. As a knowledgeable online coach, Jeff empowers his clients with both skills and knowledge for sustainable progress. I invited Jeff, a fellow curious learner and host of The Mind Muscle Connection podcast, to share his insights and strategies from interviewing experts on his show and years of hands-on experience.

__________
Book a FREE 30-minute call with Philip here.
__________

Today you’ll learn all about:

[3:17] Jeff's motivation and vision for fitness coaching and podcasting
[7:29] Coaching values
[11:11] Weight maintenance and sustaining body composition
[13:29] Challenges with weight maintenance
[21:24] Differences between maintenance and fat loss phases
[23:06] Set point theory and its impact on weight maintenance
[26:08] Addressing metabolic adaptation after a fat loss phase
[32:13] Lisa credits Philip's coaching for her 17-lb weight loss and gives him a grateful shout-out
[32:57] Importance of tracking during weight maintenance
[36:44] Strategies for addressing weight fluctuations
[40:30] Determining readiness to train and recovery status
[42:28] The importance of and factors affecting recovery
[44:55] Role of rest days and deloads in programming
[47:22] Volume, intensity, frequency, and exercise selection in recovery
[51:27] Non-training factors that influence recovery, including age and gender
[56:49] Personal approach to recovery and overcoming setbacks
[1:00:04] Influential podcast guests and personal relationships
[1:02:07] Memorable feedback from podcast listeners or clients
[1:04:13] Jeff's favorite sport
[1:05:34] How to connect with Jeff

Episode resources:

Jeff's podcast: The Mind Muscle Connection
Instagram: @ jeffhoehn_

FREE 30-minute nutrition call with Philip ⬇️
https://witsandweights.com/free-call

Learn about 1-on-1 coaching ⬇️
https://witsandweights.com/coaching

Ask Philip anything ⬇️

🥩 Download Ultimate Macros Guide and 50 High-Protein Recipes here

🫙 Get high-quality 1st Phorm supplements here

👏 ENJOY THE SHOW?

⭐ Leave a review here
💁‍♀️ Become a supporter and get a shout out here
👥 Join our free community for guides, live trainings, & challenges here

Have you followed the podcast?

Get notified of new episodes. Use your favorite podcast platform or one of the buttons below. Then hit “Subscribe” or “Follow” and you’re good to go!

Transcript

Jeff Hoehn 00:00

As you get older, I think it's important to really get your execution and technique and everything dialed in. Because, you know, again, when you're younger you can get away with like, hey, if your forms off a little bit, it's no big deal like, you're going to be fine. Whereas as you get older, you have all that wear and tear of everything else that you did for years.

Philip Pape 00:18

Jeff Hoehn 02:27

So thank you, that was a great introduction. Like I told you off air Man, I'm really impressed by your the amount of work that you put in ahead of time. I'm, I'm a little ashamed of myself now after this, but no, I appreciate you having me on. And I'm glad that you wanted to talk about these specific topics, because I think they are super important. And probably something that's maybe a little bit on paper boring, but I think it's awesome integrate chat to have. So I'm looking forward to chatting.

Philip Pape 02:51

Yeah, cool. No, I mean, I can nerd out on this stuff forever. And people know me know I do. And I don't find any of this boring. And we're gonna make it exciting and interesting. And people understand why they need to know it. So now I appreciate and appreciate the compliment. And I do love your podcast, it's great. You've covered a lot of topics have a lot of guests. The solo episodes, some of your mysterious. teasers are like, here's a topic I find interesting. And then, you know, it's like, what is he talking about today? Because that's good. So let's, let's get to know you a bit. Let the audience get to know you, if they're not already familiar with your work. I guess I want to understand your motivation and envision for taking, you know, taking your your past history with personal fitness, what you've learned your experiences, and then sharing it with the world specifically through coaching and podcasting. Yeah.

Jeff Hoehn 03:37

So, you know, for me, I think I got into fitness to just, you know, look better, like, I wanted to have bigger muscles and everything like that. And, you know, that was, I think that's how most people get into it. Right? I'm sure I'm sure it's probably the same for you. But you know, along the journey, you find out that there's a lot more to it than just that. And so for me, that was that was something that again, I got into it for that, but but figuring out that, hey, you know, there's a lot more than just having bigger muscles or looking better, right. Like, that's important. But I feel like it taught me a lot of life lessons. And it just had a lot of carryover to other aspects of my life. And so for me, you know, I want to, I want to help people get to that point, right. Like, obviously, I want to help them look better, but I think that's that's part of it. But I also want to teach, you know, other people that you know, how it can carry over to other aspects of your life, and it's just basically fitness and nutrition is just something that I feel like, makes everything else you do better. Like if that's, you know, if you're taking care of that, like everything else you do is better. Right? And there's a lot of carryover to whether you own your own business, you know, you you know, you're an employee somewhere, relationships and you know, managing money. I feel like there's a lot of carryover. And so for me, I just feel like that's the one thing that if you can get that nailed down, I just feel like other aspects of your life get better. And so for me, that's, you know, why I want to do it. And I also feel like to, you know, along the way, I'm sure you feel this way as well. There was just a lot of things that I probably did at one time that weren't great and I could have spent a lot of time to time and hard work, and just you know what, and now obviously with like social media and you know, just the access of information, the ease of information that we can get, you know, we have all this access to all this information, you know, there's a lot of stuff that I feel like isn't great. And so I just want to, you know, help people get to that point to where they can they fitness and nutrition can be a part of their lifestyle, obviously, you know, push, like getting results, but also making sure that it's not this like all or nothing mindset, and like these, these crazy protocols that just, you know, they aren't going to work for most people, I think the big one, and I'm going to kind of go off on a tangent here, I think the big thing too, is, with social media, I feel like, it's so easy to get in this like comparison game too, with with social media. And so like, you know, the other thing I really want to like help people with is realizing that what you see on social media isn't necessarily like, you shouldn't compare yourself to that, you know, I'm sure. You know, as a coach yourself, like, you have these conversations all the time, where it's like, Hey, I know you want to, you know, look like this, but realize that that person is completely different than you are. And like, you know, it's the people that get shown in your feeds are probably the outliers to most things. And so like, you know, helping people with that, I think is super important, too. So, you know, that that's, like I said, kind of, we're off on a side tangent there. But those are the things that kind of came to my mind.

Philip Pape 06:18

What, yeah, totally. And I can relate to a lot of that I'm sure I'm sure the listener candidates, probably why they listen to your show, my show and others like it, podcasting gives us that medium to be able to dive into that next level, I mean, the amount of research you put into some of your shows, right, you can tell it shows that you're, you know, you care about bringing it down to the level where people understand why they understand what to do. And it's not just like, you know, 123, by my program, it's not, you know, this click Beatty thing, even though we have to use the social media regardless, the other thing you said is how it expands to other areas of your life. And it made me think about how, you know, when you ask the client, why do you what's your goal? And they say, I want to lose weight? Or what's your goal, I want to look good? Like, okay, why do you want that, right? And then they go to that next level. All right, I want to I want to feel better, okay, why, and you dig in and dig in. And that's kind of that, that deeper meaning for why we do this, and why you want to help. But you also mentioned how it impacts other areas of your life. And I think that applies to mastery of anything, right? Like, if you master become a Master of Marketing, become a master of public speaking, it tends to transcend that into other things. And that's, I mean, that's being a human right. It's being like a capable, awesome human in this world. So it would you say, like, your overall coaching, philosophy and values? How would you pin them down? Based on all of this discussion?

Jeff Hoehn 07:34

Yeah, so I guess my coaching values would be, you know, obviously, you know, client comes to you, they want to look better, right? Like, again, what that's, that's going to be what we're going to push for, right like that, that is super important. So making sure that, you know, we get the clients results like that, it's going to be at the forefront. But it also I think, you know, some other values I have there is, you know, obviously education is going to be super important. Like, I think that's important, because I always tell clients, this, if, you know, let's say, for example, they do want to look better, that's, you know, again, we're going to aim for that, but if we're learning better habits along the way, and we're learning like more about your body, or things like that, like those are going to be things that you can take with you moving forward. Whereas like, you know, like we could get, we could get anybody to lose 15 pounds, if we you know, if we make the protocol drastic enough, but it's like, is that going to be something that you're going to, you know, you're gonna learn anything there, you're gonna be able to take that with you moving forward. So, you know, I always tell clients, like, that's, that's one of the main things is just the education piece and learning about yourself, but also, you know, better strategies as well. So I think that's, I think that's important. What else is, what else would be super important in terms of, you know, obviously, everything I do, like, I think there is a sense of, like, we want to push the client, but at the same time, and we want to get them uncomfortable, but also making sure that what we're doing is something that, you know, they're not feeling like crap in the process, I think that's super important. You know, and, and making sure that, you know, they're feeling good in the process. And again, it's not something they hate, because, again, that's not going to be anything that they can, you know, do for for a long period of time. So I think that's important. You know, obviously, communication, communicating with the clients is super important, you know, why we're doing what we're doing, again, that goes back to the education piece, but communicating along the way, and you kind of hit on it too, like with the coaching process, it's not just a, Hey, this is what we're doing, go and do it, it's, you know, there, it's a collaboration too, right? Like, for sure to make sure that, you know, you have a piece of like, what's going on too, because again, that's going to be that's going to be something that's going to fit best for you but also, you know, if you are helping make those decisions, I feel like you're going to be more likely to to to actually do them rather than me being like, hey, go do that go do this. Right. Some clients want that. But again, I'm still I still think it's important to even if that's what they want, I still think it's important to push them a little bit towards that and I always I think I made a post on this the other day about like, again, we want to get a client uncomfortable and I think that looks different from each I am right. So for like one client, it could be, hey, we are going to is going to be more of a collaborative process where you're going to have more of an input here, and I'm not just gonna be like, Hey, go and do this. Now, again, there might be some of that, but we're still going to try to push you to be uncomfortable there. And, and for one client, it could be, you know, they do just need to, like, do something different. And they might need to listen a little, you know, they might need to do something a little bit more, and then also to like, and we'll probably talk about this, but like, for one client, it could be, hey, you need to stay consistent with your workouts, that's what you need. But for another client, it could be, hey, we need to back off a little bit. Right? So it looks different for everybody. But I would say those are kind of the big things there. Hopefully that answered your question. Yeah, for sure,

Philip Pape 10:35

man. So education, the education, the awareness, and you kind of touched on, I don't know, if he's you posted, or somebody else said, you know, you don't always have to be a nice guy, but always be kind. I don't know if that I don't know who said that. But kind of the idea of we push our clients and you mentioned being uncomfortable, that's kind of every day when you're trying to change is it's something different, right. And it may be a good, uncomfortable, or maybe a very uncomfortable version of that. So the so these are awesome, right? That's what I think people want to do. But people do have to understand, they can't just do the same thing over and over and see results. So I know we want to jump into the topic. And this is kind of relevant, because when we talk about weight maintenance, we're talking about sustaining your body weight, and there's a lot of different plate. There's a lot of places you come from to get to that state, right? We don't just say, Okay, I want to maintain weight, there's a reason for that. But it's almost a state of non change, right. And so some people have trouble wrapping their head around this idea, or that it's boring. And I get it from personal experience, man, because I'm just finishing a fat loss phase. And when I'm done, I don't want to maintain weight for too long. I want to go right into the building. So high level, what are your overall thoughts on weight maintenance and these concepts? Yeah, well,

Jeff Hoehn 11:45

so I think first, you know, the thing that's important to look at is people do hear maintenance, and they automatically think that it's like, okay, hey, no progress whatsoever. Right. And that's obviously not the case. You know, we'll continue to dive into this. But like, I think that's the first thing that people need to know is like, maintenance isn't necessarily you're just not making progress at all right? It's more so like, your body weight is at maintenance. And but there's a lot of things that can that can go on. So I think that's the first thing that needs to that, you know, I need to hit on first, before we dive into this is it's still progress. Right? Next, you know, I think any, again, people here maintenance, and they think they automatically just think it's not like making progress. But to me any nutrition strategy, or exercise strategy, or any protocols that we're going to do that gets you to maintain weight long term is a win, right? Because, you know, what do most people have problems with, it's seeing weight gain, you know, over time. And so I think a lot of times when people hear like certain protocols or something that doesn't, that's not weight loss, they automatically think it's not good, right. But it's like weight maintenance. Like, that's a big thing, especially in today's world. So, so you know, I think that's important. Those are kind of the two big things that, you know, I always tell people about when they when they hear maintenance. So as far as like, so those are kind of couple things there with that. I don't know if you want me to dive into like, maybe, yeah, go ahead. And

Philip Pape 13:02

yeah, no, no, I don't I have a million questions. I always do, we always go off on tangents. And I don't get half to half of them. It's okay. We're having a conversation. So, you know, the idea that it's still progress, you said a lot of other things going on. It's a long term success strategy in that at some point, you're going to lose weight, potentially, I want to keep it off, or gain weight or want to keep it whatever, something like 95% of people gain all the way back. Right. And Brandon was telling me the other day, some other sobering statistics about that. But there's challenges and difficulties here, because of the fact that you're trying to stay steady. It's almost it's almost more difficult in some ways than going up or down. Right. So what are those challenges people face?

Jeff Hoehn 13:38

Yeah, well, like you said, again, it's it's the fact that oh, hey, maintenance is not progress, right? You know, what I commonly see, I think this will will be helpful is like, what you commonly see in the fitness industry is, you know, people, they, they get into, they want to do fat loss. So then they, you know, they want to lose weight, so they restrict calories, do a bunch of cardio, and they see this weight turned down super quick. And it ends up being these, you know, we talked about sustainability earlier. And I think that's super important. And when people do it that way, you know, they lose, they lose weight quickly, but then they're miserable in the process, probably lost some lean body mass in the process as well, so muscle, they lose that and then you know, what happens? You know, you just you start eating like you did before and the weight comes back on quickly. The problem with that is, you know, now you have less less muscle weights gonna come back on quicker so then you gain weight. So then like over time, what you see happen here is you see these people, they you know, they trend down, and then weight comes back up, it might stay the same, it might go a little bit higher, but the problem there is you're going to have more more fat mass in that process. Because anytime you lose weight and you lose muscle in the process, your body is going to gain most of that weight and if you do it quickly, your body is going to get most of that weight back via fat right. So so this is what ends up happening and then and then people then what happens then, you know a couple weeks months go by I hate Let's do that again, right, and it just ends up being this yo yo with with over time, you know, a little bit more fat mass and we're less muscle. So I like to, I like to have what I call a maintenance phase, you'd call reverse diet phase, whatever it may be where after that, after that fat loss diet, we're going to bring you back to, we're gonna find a way to eat that's going to, you know, maintain your weight, maybe it comes up a little bit, but we're just going to avoid that, like super increase that increase in food and the big spike after after, after you lose weight, lose body fat, whatever it may be, the biggest challenges that I see people have with this is. So anytime you lose, lose body fat, and or you're in a calorie deficit, like for a long period of time, you're gonna see some, you're gonna see hunger come up a little bit, you know, you might have a little less energy. And so when that happens, your body wants to get back to where it was before. And so, in that, that's why you see an increase in hunger, like energy levels are lower, things like that. And so if you just go straight back to eating like you did before, again, you're gonna see things come back up. So I think the the first main challenge is like hunger super high after that period of time, right? And if, and if you just listen to your body, and you don't do anything, that's that's why you you see that that comes, like, why it's so hard to maintain your weight after afterwards, right? Because again, your body wants to get back to where it was before. So I think that's, that's the first challenge is like, hunger super high. And so it can be really hard to moderate your food intake. But then on top of it, a lot of times people restrict themselves for a long period of time. And then you know, what happened? Do you want to start to eat tasty food again, so people go straight back into eating tasty food, and you're already hungry. And these types of foods are already really tough to moderate, because they're just designed to get you to overeat and continue to eating and keep wanting more. But then you combine it with the fact that, hey, you're already hungrier. So you just want more and more, right, so it becomes really challenging to me, you know, to moderate your food intake. It's almost it's basically like a cheat code to eat more calories, right? These these types of foods that are easily available tasty foods.

Philip Pape 17:05

And hold on, what are we talking? And were you talking about the scenario for anybody who's lost weight? Whether you are training eating protein, and all the things or not? Are we talking to a specific scenario here?

Jeff Hoehn 17:14

Yeah, I mean, both people even, you know, people that are on the way down, that don't lift weights or their proteins low, you know, they are going to, they're going to be at up probably a little, they're going to see this happen. Like, they're going to be the higher risk of all this stuff, right. But even if you do lose body weight, lose body fat, and your your, you know, lifting weights, eating enough protein, you're still going to this is still going to happen to you, right? It's just probably not going to be as bad in that in that scenario. But yeah, both people they're going to see this this happen. So but yeah, those are, those are some challenges. Another challenge too. And, you know, some mistakes that people will make, in this period of time afterwards is, you know, again, it's like, people go all in during the fat loss phase. And then, you know, then Monday comes around, it's like, oh, maintenance, I'm not fat loss diet, and I'm just gonna go back to doing whatever I was doing before, right, and whether that's like not tracking anything. So again, tracking can be like your body weight, it can be like your biofeedback, you know, maybe you're not moving as much like, it's like, Oh, hey, I don't have to lose body fat anymore. So now I'm just not going to move as much. And all these things add up, right? And then you combine it with what I talked about with your hunger increasing. And then to like, people will stop like weighing in because like, Oh, hey, you know, I have that goal of like, seeing weight come down to now I'm not gonna weigh in anymore. And I'm not sure you know, what, like, some people have, you know, some people like to have people weigh in regularly. Some people don't, it's just I think depends on the client and what their relationship is with the scale. But that goes back to the education piece, I really tried to teach clients how to understand what's going on with scale weight, because I think that's super important. So I think if you have a good you know, if you have a coach with you that can help you with this, like, it's good to continue to track your body.

Philip Pape 18:47

While we're on the same page there. I don't know, if you listen to my stuff. I'm always talking about tracking and even even even the value of daily weight tracking, as an antidote for that emotional tie in with the scale, it actually seems to help, because now you've got the data. So totally agree there. Yeah.

Jeff Hoehn 19:02

Well, and you know, people, they stopped tracking that, right. So then it's like, it can be a way to just kind of help you moderate your food. Like, again, if you see your weight go up a little bit like well, okay, I probably need to back off a little bit. Right. But if you're not focused on that, it's like you don't have anything to kind of get you to pump the brakes a little bit. Right. So it was an incentive. Yeah. Yeah. I think the big thing is to go back to all this into title. And I think that the missing piece for a lot of people here is this kind of planned approach to fat loss, right? Like, yes, the fat loss diet is important. But what do you do after that is super important as well, too, because if you're missing out on that part, afterwards, I feel like you're going to end up having to do the same thing over and over and over again. So you know, I think having something set up after that, that period of time is super important. Like for example, I just had a client, he had to go through a pretty hard weight cut for an MMA fight. So what like what we had to do for him would be a little bit different than a lifestyle client, but you know, he put him he put his body through the wringer to get down to get this weight down. And you know, afterwards, you know, one of his main things he wants to work on with me was he had to do this multiple times. And after each fight, he wouldn't you know, he would just go back to his normal life, you would be super hungry. And so he would just kind of go on these beatings breeze, yeah, Ben just basically where he would just eat anything, everything drink, and, you know, then he would get up to a weight that, you know, when he was trying to fight again, he'd have to lose much weight. And it's just this, it's this process that would go over and over again. And so like for him, you know, some of his challenges have been, you know, he's, he's super hungry. And so we're talking about, hey, like, you know, we just have to increase the amount of food that you're that you were eating, you know, like, for example, don't just go straight from like, eating all these quote unquote, diet foods to then all sudden, going back to, you know, pizza all the time. And like tasty foods, like we got to still eat for the most part, the same foods just in large quantities, right? Yeah.

Philip Pape 20:46

Yeah. So what I'm hearing from some of this, right, and people need to understand is that the the fat loss phase itself as you're going through it, and as you're getting toward maintenance, that's when we start doing the prep work for maintenance, right? Like, there's ways to do that. And I also pull from this that at least for a lifestyle client, like a Gen pop, you know, I don't want to claim to just cut everything out that they enjoy during a fat loss phase, we want to try to build them in, we're not talking about, you know, the 24 hour cuts and the MMA fighters necessarily here who have to, or bodybuilders who have to get more dialed in. But it's like, if you're at least allowing for some of that, and then accommodating it, you have those skills, right, as you come out of it. So So what are the things someone would do, let's say 12, or 16 week fat loss phase, you're maybe halfway through and thinking ahead toward maintenance? What's what's the best way to prepare for that?

Jeff Hoehn 21:31

Yeah, well, I think part of it is just realize that yes, the fat loss portion of it's over, but you're still going to need to put in the work afterwards, right? I think I think mentally preparing yourself for that can be helpful. But you know, just realize that you are going to get a little bit more flexibility with food, right, you get a little bit more quantity. So that will be helpful there. Some other things too, you know, make sure that you have a game plan for you know, weight training, movement, right, I think that's another big thing. To make sure you have some goals set up there with that, again, we want to make sure we wait train, because the big thing too is, you know, we talked about weight training a little bit ago, but I've made this post before, I think if you do see a little bit of weight gain, you know, what you do in that process is important too, right? Like, if you're not weight training, and you're gaining weights, like, okay, that's going to be different than gaining weight and weight training, right. So, you know, making sure you have that setup. Movement, again, make sure you're still you know, what, no matter like, however you track your cardio or steps, or whatever it is, you know, make sure you start a game plan there with that. But from a nutrition standpoint, you know, what I tell clients is, like I said, just, we're still going to eat relatively the same amount of the same foods, just we're going to increase the quantities, but you know, I guess you could, if you have a, like, I always tell clients, I like to have them like have like a set amount of meals per day, because I think that really allows for some structure. So I think making sure you still have that in place, you know, making sure you're still you know, doing your prep work, whether that's going to the grocery store, prepping, you know, making sure you're still doing those things, I think can be really helpful there. You know, to help you prepare for for that time.

Philip Pape 23:04

Cool. Yeah. What about um, you know, you talked about getting back to a certain way, we talked about either reverse dieting or recovery diet and whatever term you want to use? Should should people be concerned about setpoint? Theory? Is that a thing? I know, the evidence is mixed about it, the idea that we all have a weight range where we stabilize. And so when we think of maintenance, is there or is there an artificial weight that we're trying to maintain it that's counterproductive versus this setpoint? Weight?

Jeff Hoehn 23:28

Yeah, I definitely think there is some truth to that. So I think they so what they call now and like what the model that they think is like the most effective is called like the dual point intervention model, right. So it's like, we have these, like, we have this like high end, where like, you know, once you get to a certain body fat level, on the high end, it's like, things start to kick in, where it's like, hey, we'll we'll chill out, like, you know, your body's going to try to expend more energy, like basically the opposite of when you're trying to lose weight. But then when you get to a body fat level, on the other end, it's like, then this is where you really see hunger start to kick up, like, you know, you may see your libido go down the drain, you know, sleep might start to suffer energy levels, right. And anything in between, there's where your body's like comfortable, right? So like, in that range. For people. I don't know if people can see me, obviously, on a podcast, but like that range could differ from person to person, right? Like for one person that that top end could be super high. So it's like their bodies just kind of want to keep gaining weight. For some people, that bottom point could be really low. So they can just keep losing losing weight. But for some people, it's like, it's really small, right? Their body just really wants to stay where it's at. So I definitely think there's some, like we do need to take that in consideration. But at the end of the day, you know, what your habits are, I feel like are going to really determine where you fall at on that on that scale, in that range. Right. And one other thing too, that I feel like it's important here with this is in Why think maintenance is important. And again, when we say maintenance, like I think maintenance it maintenance can be like a phase where you're just not trying to push body weight up or down. It can be a phase where maybe you're just trying to take some stress off the body. But it can also just be like your calories. You're about to write, I think something like I think that needs to be like, you know, people need to, like, I guess I just need to explain that at a time. Like a, it just really depends on like, what are you trying to do with it? So there's different ways. But

Philip Pape 25:10

what I'm saying, Are you saying the term maintenance as in referring to your expenditure, your your true maintenance versus maintaining your weight? Is that is that distinction making?

Jeff Hoehn 25:19

Yeah, basically, like, I think there's a difference in terms of like, okay, it's a maintenance phase, like a maintenance phase can be a phase where we're just trying to take some stress off, right, we're not trying to push body weight up, we're not trying to push performance, we're not trying to push body weight down, we're just, you know, just trying to find a good range to stay at basically homeostasis for your body right now kind of get to that in a minute why that's important. But also, there's maintenance calories, right? And I think, again, there's a difference there, because maintenance calories is just your energy balance, right? And, yes, you're not going to lose body fat, if your calories are maintenance, but you could still, depending on where you're at, in your training or training journey, you could still build some muscle at maintenance. Right? So So I think there's a difference there in terms like, just because you're at maintenance calories, doesn't mean you're at like maintenance, like a maintenance phase, if that makes sense.

Philip Pape 26:01

Yeah, totally. Totally. Go ahead. Yeah, no, no, you're not you have a thought? Well,

Jeff Hoehn 26:07

what I was gonna say is, the reason why we want to do this is because it kind of tie in the dual intervention model that I was just talking about, like where your body is comfortable, is, you know, putting your body weight up or down is a stressor on the body, right? Like, if you put your body weight up for too long, your body is going to start to have some adaptations to that, right. And this is where you see a lot of like, the general population is that where like, they're just in this chronic energy surplus, right, where their weight is going up and up. And this is where you start to see, you know, that patients to that end up being like, type two diabetes, like insulin resistance, things like that, right. And so that's the adaptation there for that. Whereas the adaptation on the way down is, would be called more like metabolic adaptation, right? Where it's like, when you continue to push your body weight down, your body is going to have these adaptations in place to just be like, Hey, we got to chill out here, we can't just keep losing more and more weight. The best way I can explain this is, think back to how we evolved for like, most of our time on Earth, right, we didn't have this abundance of food. That was, you know, you had to expend a ton of energy to go and get food, right? You know, for pretty much all our existence where it's like in the last like 3050 years, now, you can literally, you don't have to expend any energy other than pressing numbers on your phone, and you can get 5000 calories, right? So there's this kind of like mismatch now, where our bodies are just the, it's just a lot different now. And again, so like, back in the day, when we didn't have all this abundance of energy around our bodies are really good at being like, Okay, if we don't have a lot of food around, we need to expend energy to go and get food, we your body's really good at being like, hey, let's you know, down regulate things. So it's really good at adapting up or down. And so, again, those those are stressors on the body, and there's adaptations that happen, I mean, again, even if you're low, let's say you're on the way down, you know, like, for example, things like thyroid could slow down, like, that's something that there, that's an adaptation for men, you know, depending on where you're at body fat level wise, testosterone could go down, either on the way down, or on the way up. So these are all adaptations that are in place. And so that's all stressors on the body, right, like, either way up or down. And so why we go to maintenance is to take that stress off of the body, right and like, just let it be comfortable, because that's going to be you know, where your body feels the best and where it's going to be able to, you know, just perform, you know, make sure you get, you know, perform your best again, where it's at its most comfortable.

Philip Pape 28:29

Ya know, these are, these are really important, and people have to understand there's a cascade of things that happens, right, you mentioned thyroid, there's extra die off for women, there's, you know, leptin and ghrelin, which cause hunger, and then if you exacerbate that with lack of sleep, and sometimes people move less when they're in a fat loss phase, you sometimes really need that break. Sometimes it's just for psychological reasons, but there are because you're gonna get back into the adaptation as soon as you start dieting again. But if you don't have that break, you you might break like mentally break and be like, I'm done and then start, you know, sabotaging your progress.

Jeff Hoehn 29:01

Well, that's that's where you see most people fall anyways, right? Whether they do it or not, like whether they take a maintenance phase or not, they end up doing that. Anyways. Right? So yeah, like you said, it's really that like that, that maintenance phase is going to be there to help take stress off of the body because again, it's you know, people don't realize but you know, you're at where you're at, because of like, the, what you've done to it. And again, your body's really good at adapting to things and so really, if you're having any of these symptoms or anything like that, it's just from what you've been doing. Right. So

Philip Pape 29:32

and when you do this, so you know, there's a little bit of, quote unquote controversy about reverse dieting ever since the treks article came out the idea that if you know what your current means is you just jumped to that and recover there's no need to stretch it out. But we still use the term reverse dieting kind of to mean the same thing for for some people. Is that what you do you just kind of increase carbs bring them back to their current maintenance when this happens? If this was

Jeff Hoehn 29:53

like a bodybuilder or somebody like that, we would have like more of like a recovery diet, right? Where it's like, yes, that person if they're like, super low body fat again, you're gonna see those adaptations happen like hormones are going to decrease like for them, you would want to get them back to maintenance like as soon as possible. For more lifestyle client who, you know, maybe they're not you know, for women maybe they're not so 20% body fat for men maybe they're not like sub eight 10%. You know, maybe they're a little bit higher than that, but they're leaner than what they've been they've been dieting for a while. For that person, I'll do more of like a reverse back to maintenance right in the reason being is they're not as in bad of a shape as like somebody that's like, super, super lean, right. So they have a little bit of wiggle room there to where we can slowly bring their calories back up and in find where there like maintenance is that now and that can be a good way to just not like because I feel like if you go from dieting straight to your maintenance, you know, you could see some weight gain come a little bit quicker. And for some people, they don't want to see that. So I like to use reverse dieting to for more lifestyle clients and slowly get them back to their maintenance and just make sure that we don't overshoot anything on the

Philip Pape 30:56

way. Yeah, and it's practical to write there's a sustainability aspect of just not jumping so many calories. Just from a practical standpoint. Yeah,

Jeff Hoehn 31:04

no, absolutely. And I think too, if you're somebody that is in this situation, and you're you're super worried about gaining regaining weight, and reverse dieting, like realize you're already like most of the way there, like you already have a good plan in place. And so it's like your, the chances of you going overboard are are very low. Whereas, you know, you take somebody on the other end of the spectrum, they just are like, Oh, I cannot wait to just go back to what I was doing before. It's like, okay, you know, this is it's a little bit different there, right. So like, the fact that you know, you need a game plan, and you're going to do that I think is important. I think the downside with like a reverse diet is, and this is kind of what Eric Trexler talked about in his articles, like, it's a way to like kind of prolong the calorie deficit in a way. And so you just have to be careful with that, that you're not like sitting at these body weights or deficits that are you're not sitting in these body, the body fat levels that are going to cause some of those issues that we talked about from like hormonal, you know, biofeedback standpoint. And also making sure that you're not in a deficit for a long period of time, because again, like we talked about, your body's gonna adapt to that, even if it is a small deficit, it is going to continue to adapt to that. So you just have to make sure that you're not doing it to like, maintain some physique that isn't like doable for you. Right, you know, Hi, my

32:12

name is Lisa. And I'd like to Big shout out to my nutrition coach, Philip pape, with his coaching, I have lost 17 pounds, he helped me identify the reason that I wanted to lose weight, and it's very simple longevity, I want to be healthy, active and independent. Until the day I die. He introduced me to this wonderful little app called macro factor, I got that part of my nutrition figured out along with that is the movement part of nutrition, there's a plan to it and really helped me with that. The other thing he helped me with was knowing that I need to get a lot of steps in. So the more steps you have, the higher your expenditure is, and the easier it is to lose weight when it's presented to you like he presents it, it makes even more sense. And the other thing that he had was a hunker guide, and that really helped me so thank you. The

Philip Pape 32:55

last question about maintenance is what should people be tracking? Right? Do we know calories? Macros? Wait couple things there? What are some other key metrics people should track?

Jeff Hoehn 33:04

Yeah, no, that's a good question. Um, so what I like to have clients track is this one, I think is the most important I, I kind of told you earlier that like how client feels in the process, I think is super important. So what I like to have clients track is I call it like, biofeedback. You know, people call many different things with biofeedback is going to be things like, you know, how's your sleep? How your energy levels, how are your hunger levels, you could, you could throw libido in there, you could throw digestion in there. And so like tracking those things, I think are super important. Because, again, if if those are in a good spot like that, to me, that's the most important you know, whereas like if a client is saying that they're like, super hungry, or like libido is gone, like they don't have any libido, maybe for female client, their menstrual cycle, like, If those things aren't there, some something's mid, like, we got to dive deeper, we got to figure out something that's going on there. Right. So like, I think that's the most important thing, because in these maintenance phases, reverse diet phases, we want to see biofeedback improve, right? That's, that's the main goal, right? So you want to make sure that that's, that's in a good spot there. So biofeedback, for sure, you know, making sure you're in a good spot. Because like, if a client, for example, is if we're in a reverse diet phase, and we're not seeing these things improve, and they're like, Oh, I'm really scared of weight gain. But you continue to, like, have that kind of small deficit, because you like, like, you know, you're worried about bringing them up a little bit higher. It's like, you have to have that honest conversation with them about being like, hey, we probably just need bring your calories a little bit

Philip Pape 34:28

is showing. Yeah, that's why you feel that way.

Jeff Hoehn 34:31

Yep. So So biofeedback, I think is super important. You know, continue to track your training, I think that can be a big thing to like, making sure you're tracking that because like, you know, if you come out of a deficit into maintenance, you're probably going to see a little bit of an uptick in your training. So, um, you know, I think that's important to track that. Make sure that's trending up and whatnot. I think activity levels. I like to have clients track it through steps, just because that's a good indicator of like, overall activity levels. So tracking that you Have some sort of food monitoring again, it doesn't necessarily have to be calories and macros, if you did that for your fat loss phase, I would still push you to do that in your maintenance phase afterwards, just for a period of time, you don't have to do it forever, I think people get this mindset towards tracking that's like, if they do it once, they either have to do it forever, or they never have to do it again, I think there's just like, they're just like, I like that phases with nutrition, I think there needs to be faced with a tool, it's a learning tool, an education tool. Yeah. And so having some periods of time where you do it, you don't do it, I think it's great, but doing it for that period of time afterwards. And if you can, you know, really, really try to minimize the amount of like, tasty food you have in that post diet period, because it's just gonna be really hard to moderate and you're just gonna want more so, you know, again, tracking some sort of food intake, and then making sure that you limit tasty foods as best as you can. I know, again, that's way easier said than done. But I think the big thing is don't like have, you know, if this was your entire calories that you had, and like you had this much be your, like nutrient dense type foods don't just like all sudden, like, flip it, where it's like, now you're eating only like 20%, nutrient dense foods and 80%, you know, still try to stick to like 80 90% rule there with that. And then lastly, you know, body weight, I think it's super important to continue to track your body weight in this period of time afterwards, just so again, things aren't getting out of hand. Now, again, having a good coach like yourself to kind of coach people and educate them on like, what's going on, like, hey, you know, if you're in a fat loss phase, you're super depleted, you know, you're don't have a lot of food in your system, and all sudden, you know, we bring up the calories 234 100, you're gonna see your body weight come up a little bit, right, like, there's just one fluid from the carbs. Yep, yeah, glycogen stores. Yeah, and just more food in your belly at one time. So I think also, I guess this goes back to our original topic here of like, maintenance, it's like, maintenance also isn't just like this one, number one number, right? It's a range, right? So maintenance calories are gonna be arranged your maintenance, weight is going to be a range. And so again, just realizing that I think can be super helpful.

Philip Pape 36:59

For sure, yeah, I use plus or minus three for most people, three pounds, because it's kind of that good range where, because if you if you did it too tight, and I was like, What's going on, I'm gaining weight help, you know, it's some flexibility. Well, and

Jeff Hoehn 37:11

to one other thing on this, it just came to my head about the weight thing that there's been times where I've had a client in a fat loss phase, and we go back to you know, it's a reverse diet, we're going to slowly bring their calories back up, I've seen it many times where some clients, they still continue to see their weight trend down a little bit, right. And some of that has to do with we talked about stress, and it's like your body's, you know, in a fat loss phase, again, like that's a stressor on the body. And it's you're probably you know, you could potentially be holding on to some some water weight because of the stress, right. So sometimes you bring these clients calories up a little bit, and they start to see their weight trend down a little bit. That's also has to do with like, knee like if that, you know, if you bring your calories back up your body's like more, it's going to expend more energy, because you're bringing in more food, things like that. But I've also seen clients where their weight stay the same. And then there's also clients that have seen their weight come up a little bit, right. So you don't know until you actually do it. But just realize that you could increase calories, your weight come down a little bit, it could stay the same, or it could come up a little bit in that process.

Philip Pape 38:08

Yeah, and there's one other piece about maintenance. I'm kind of surprised I didn't bring it up. But the idea that especially when you're getting started, right, being in a maintenance phase, potentially, when you start lifting, when you start putting together all these habits, at least that's something I like to do with clients, I know it's a pretty common approach with good coaches, where you start to see all these magical things happen without the scale changing. And you have to have those conversations of, you know, moving away from focusing on the scale, wait for an hour, at least until they're then mentally ready and physically ready for that fat loss phase.

Jeff Hoehn 38:36

Yep, no. percent. And I feel like too, I've seen clients where, if they've been that person that's always tried to restrict their calories or be super lean. And that's like all they've ever done. It's like you put them at maintenance. And it's like, you know, they're there. When you sit right? Yeah, everything, like, everything gets better, they feel better. Training gets better. So that's gonna help with muscle growth. You know, so yeah, a lot of, you know, depending on where the person is, at, like, there's a lot of good things that happen if you if you've spent a lot of time just always trying to restrict restrict, and you get to maintenance, like a lot of good things can happen on at that point, you know, I think the big one too is like, for women is the menstrual cycle, right? Like they don't realize that like that's a big thing, if that's off and you know, that's not regular, there's something going on that you know, needs to be worked on. And that's typically comes from like stress, right, like some sort of structure and, and the thing was stressed is a lot of people don't realize that stress is like, it's not just your mental stress of like, oh, work was tough. I got in a fight with my, my spouse, you know, stress is also like, you know, too high levels of body fat as stress, you know, too low body fat levels of stress on the body. You know, eating patterns, like if you eat late at night before bed like that could you know kind of cause some stress in terms of, you know, your circadian rhythm like poor sleep is stress, right? So there's like all these other factors of stress there that play a role. So

Philip Pape 39:52

yeah, and then you see HPA Axis issues, sometimes as a result, and a lot of those get resolved right. When you get out that situation. I mean, I've had clients who, you know, their mode of training is definitely not heavy lifting. It's a lot of cardio, right? Yep. And as soon as you remove that stress, and you say, Hey, we're going to lift really heavy weights for three days a well, it's not going to be more stressful, it actually it actually removes a systemic stress. And then all of a sudden, all the adrenal issues and cortisol issues you might have had go away when you're now eating 20 700% or 2200 calories. And by the way, your weights not changing, is it? It is really, really like magic to some people. Yeah, yeah, no, absolutely. All right. So let's talk about recovery. That's the other topic which kind of overlaps us in some way. Most people I guess, would think of recovery as as restoring your energy, your your, maybe your glycogen between workouts, maybe not being sore, getting sleep, preventing injury, all those things. How do you define recovery, which I suspect is also one of your biofeedback measures? Possibly, um, how do you how you define it? Yeah, yeah.

Jeff Hoehn 40:53

So you know, to I guess the scientific term of recovery is like, basically, you're back at the point to where you can, you know, in your training session, you can like, progress again, essentially, right? Like, you're back to like, baseline performance levels. That's like, the scientific term for me, you know, I do, I do monitor like a client's biofeedback or recovery, and what I tell them, Okay, so like, it's going to be on a scale of one to five, like, one for like, a low, like, for poor. One would be poor recovery ability. And like, what that's going to look like would be like, you're just like, super low energy, you're just like, kind of best way I could say is you're just kind of Dragon Right? Like you're dragging, you're just low energy. You know, maybe you're like super sore, sore, achy. Motivation just is like kind of down the drain, you're just not feeling great, you know, training, your training session sucks, like, you're just not feeling good in your training session. You're super hungry, you just feel depleted, right? Like that, to me is that's poor recovery ability, right? Good. recovery ability is going to obviously be the opposite of that, right? Like you have high energy, you're feeling great throughout the day, you know, hunger depending on what phase you're in. Hunger is not like super high or something like that. Right? Like you feel sustained energy, you're feeling strong, and your training sessions, you're feeling super motivated to train to do your hit your goals. You know, you could also throw like libido in there, too, right? Like, I've hit on that a couple times. You know, if that's kind of in the in the gutter, like that's poor recovery ability, that's, that's a sign of some sort of stress going on, you're under recovering somewhere. So again, on the opposite end, you know, your, your, your libido is good, right? Like, that's those are all, like good signs there of nuts how I would that's how I typically tell clients like what that what that looks like.

Philip Pape 42:27

Yeah, and there's Wouldn't you say? So there's a subjective and an objective kind of element to this. And where I'm going with that is personal experience, and clients who have have said, Hey, I felt I felt sluggish going to the gym, I felt weak. You know, I felt like I was just no way I was gonna get this. And all of a sudden they get a PR, right. Like, well, where would you place that in this spectrum?

Jeff Hoehn 42:50

Yeah, no, that's that's a good point. Right? I mean, I think at that point, like, if, like, I know, you said, it is very subjective, right. So I think getting this data is important, right? And like in tracking it, but as a coach, and like, even even if you're just doing this for yourself, you don't have a coach, you're just doing this for yourself, you do need to like, check into it a little bit as well, too, right? Like, ask yourself, ask yourself a little bit more about it. Because like you said, you could be something where it's like, you do feel that way. But then you go in, like you said, you hit a PR So yes, there, I do think that that that can happen. So honestly, that would to me fall under the recovery aspect to where like, you go and train and it's like, you actually end up hitting a PR, right? Like, okay, then maybe the recovery is not as bad as it could have been like, to me, that tells me that you're it's not as bad as it was right. So like, that would be a sign of like better recovery than you think if you're going in, in the PR. I think too, sometimes. You know, people have certain metrics, whether that be like HRV, or they have like a wolf or something like that. And no, like, it will like tell them they're not recovering. So then like mentally, like this is a case of placebo effect. Yeah. And so I think you need to be careful with that. For sure. And then even like to you know, we talked about sleep, and it's like, oh, I got a poor night's sleep. So you go into that training session, like all this is going to be terrible. So like, you do have to check yourself on this a little bit. And like, don't put too much stock into one single thing, you know, so that's what I would tell clients on it. Now again, like you said, it's subjective, so there's definitely going to be a potential like error with it. But I think it's more so when you're like, Oh, we're like noticing trends of like, a client's consistently putting like, one two or three and then you know, their training performance is actually showing that as well to that where it's like, hey, we need to we definitely need to take more than one single day of this like it's going to take some time to really figure it out. Yeah, but I think what it does is it just it allows you to like look into things a little bit more and like just kind of double check Hey, could this potentially be off like okay, maybe it is my sleep you know, am I doing something sleep wise that's off? Am I maybe training a little bit too much am I pushing you know what I mean? Things like that. Oh, totally

Philip Pape 44:48

agree. Then you can correlate it with other factors like you did stall on your lift or something, you know, you know, I asked this because a lot a lot of a lot of people especially you get older you deal with all sorts of aches and pains you deal with, especially low back fatigue. Very common or low back pain. I personally have had days where I felt low back soreness, but then I know the type of soreness is fine and I can go do my workouts gonna feel better other days like, no, if I push this something's gonna pop. Right. And he just, you kind of get to know your body over time. You found that personally with you?

Jeff Hoehn 45:17

Yeah, no, 100% I think you've definitely there's, it's definitely gonna take you some time to figure out like, you know, okay, is this a pain that I'm gonna push through? Or is this a pain that like, hey, I really need to take it take it easy, right? Um, so ya know, I think learning your body. I think in the beginning, if you are feeling that, like if you're, you know, within like a year or so of training, and this is happening, I do think you probably want to dial back your your intensity a little bit, right, like, just just because you don't know yet, like you said, but I do think in that situation, if you do have any sort of like, let's say recovery, you rate it as low. Yeah, maybe some aches and pains. I think we need to be careful with like, not that meaning like, Oh, hey, I'm just going to lay around all day reacting. Yeah. Because, because I think that that's going to make that will probably make things worse. Whereas like in that situation, maybe you just go in and like you have a little bit of low back pain. And in your mind, you're like, oh, no, if I don't go balls to the wall, in this session, I'm gonna lose all my progress. But I think as you get more experience, you realize that it's all about like, finding things that are going to keep you going for long periods of time. So maybe that day, it is just like, dialing it back a little bit. And it's more of just a lighter trading session. Just showing up and getting in is, that's what you need to do that day. And, you know, that could be the thing that you get some blood flow to the area, it starts to feel better. Or maybe for you, it's like, hey, for me today, I'm just gonna go and get some steps in or something like that, right? Because I think with the steps, that's one of those tricky ones that I always have this conversation with clients, where they're like, Oh, I was super tired today. So I just didn't do any steps. And you know, then it's like, Well, I think part of your issue is you just you didn't get that activity, right. I'm sure you've had those days where you

Philip Pape 46:53

stiffened up affects the joints, flex recovery. Yeah, it stiffened

Jeff Hoehn 46:56

up. And then and then just laying around, I just feel like you just get this sense of like, you're just getting more tired doing it right. And so I think in that situation, maybe it is just going for a walk, right. And so I think what I'm trying to say is like, you still need to do something, but in terms of the intensity that you're going, maybe that's not the day that you go and try to hit that gray bar on deadlift or something like that, you just dial it back and still get something in because I think that's, that's important.

Philip Pape 47:21

Yeah, and you touched on intensity. And so what I want to look at the variables here, the training variables, right, you've got volume got intensity, frequency exercise selection, you know, I'm not a personal trainer, per se, but I help I help my clients a lot with that, and give them form checks. And one of the things I like to do is, is kind of invert the volume, math, you know, if, if the sets of five are just going to be too stressful, if you feel like that's just impossible, maybe we turn into you know, three sets of five become five sets of three or something. So you can change the intensity one way or the other. So how do we manipulate these variables, and also, there's confusion around this with recovery, like I've heard, hey, I'm not going to work out five or six days a week, because I'm in a fat loss phase. But there's kind of a premise there that more days means more stress, when that's not always true, right? Because sometimes shorter sessions on more days can reduce systemic stress. So how do we make sense of it? All?

Jeff Hoehn 48:10

Yeah, um, so I think I think with that, like, like you said, they're, they're all kind of related to each other. Right? It's like, I guess the best way to describe it would be like, anybody that's ever like, made a that's played a video game where you like, create your employer, it's like, you, you basically, you can't have the everything be at the max, right? Like, if you want to be like the strongest, yeah, yeah, you're gonna, you're well, then you can't be like the the fastest either, right, like, you're gonna end up, you're gonna have to take a hit on those other kind of traits or attribute attributes, whatever you want to call them. Um, and so it's kind of the same thing, right? It's like the, I think, the more often you train. So frequency, you know, if you train six days a week, you know, you're gonna have to, you're gonna have to manage it to where maybe volumes a little bit lower per session, right? Or maybe intensities a little bit lower per session, or not, every time you train, you're going to like have these exercises that are going to be like, super fatiguing, right. So like, taking like a Romania Romanian deadlift, you know, that's going to be pretty fatiguing on the body. So you, maybe you're not gonna be able to do that every training session, right? You're gonna have to maybe do like Lake curl one day or something like that something that, again, people are like, Oh, that's a machine isolated exercise, you know, do we want to do that or not? Like, well, it just depends on on that, right. So, again, intensity, probably will have to go down a little bit, you're not gonna be able to train to failure, every single set for every exercise, whereas, you know, say you have somebody that train three days a week, it's like, Okay, now we can probably push failure a little bit. Like you can go a little bit closer to failure, because you're just not training as much overall, the volume per session could probably be a little bit higher. Now, again, there's still you know, there comes a point where you can't just keep doing more and more volume. So there's going to be, there's going to be a point to where, like, if you can only train three days, there's going to be some limitations there. But again, you can maybe pick exercises that are a little bit more fatiguing, and you can do Do those each session. Um, so there's all these things, you know, play a role, and they're all tools. Really there. Right? So that's kind of the best way that I guess I could describe that. I don't know if that answered all your questions on it. But if you, ya

Philip Pape 50:12

know, people are just wondering, like, what, which of these have the biggest impact? Is it? Is it the volume, like in the tonnage really, because, you know, maybe maybe intensively load on the bar isn't what stressful? Except it could be if you're doing a lot of deadlifts. And you can't do that three times a week? So you know, or does it depend? I mean, the answer is always It depends. Right?

Jeff Hoehn 50:30

I do think I think overall volume is the is the number one thing though, right? Like, that's going to be the most important thing there in terms of like, what's what's going to be most fatiguing? Because I think no matter what, once you get, like, like I just said, with that, that three day a week, it's like, yeah, you can do more volume for workout. But at some point, there is going to be that, that that point where it's like, Okay, now, it's just too much volume, that it's going to be junk volume, you're not going to get you're going to be doing more for like, way less return on it. So I do think at the end, the day volume is going to be the number one thing, they're what's going to like same thing for like a, you know, if you somebody that runs, they like to do a lot of running, it's like, the biggest thing there is the amount of volume that they that they have to do, right. But all these other things are just tools that we can kind of manipulate that. But intensity is going to be a big one too, I think you know, but with intensity, it's like, the less you train, the more intense you can can go can go so

Philip Pape 51:24

so then, what's the difference between, you know, with age, right, because I know, I can't train like I could when I was 22. And I wish I actually did train like I'm trying to train now, when I was 22. But I did. Alright, so age, you know, we get into our 40s and up and also between men and women. Yeah,

Jeff Hoehn 51:39

so as far as the age thing goes, you know, it's definitely I think, as you get older, like your, the volume you can do is definitely gonna go down. Right? There's, there's no doubt about that. But I also think that has a lot to do with I think it has genetics are going to play a role in just aging in general. But I still think that that has more to do with lifestyle than then what people want to attribute it to, right. I mean, just think about it, when you're 20, it was like, yes, you could get away with less sleep, but you're still probably sleeping more than you do. Now, you had way more free time to do whatever you want it. And again, that's going to be part of the recovery and stress process. You know, you just have less responsibilities back then. So it was I didn't

Philip Pape 52:15

have the kids, you didn't have the pets, you didn't have the big house, on the mortgage, etc, etc. Yeah, so

Jeff Hoehn 52:18

So I think that's, that's gonna play a big role in it, right? So but as you age, it's definitely going to be, you're definitely not going to recover as well as you did when you were younger. So you know, this is where like, as you get older, I think it's important to really get your execution and technique and everything dialed in. Because, you know, again, when you're younger, you can get away with like, hey, if your forms off a little bit, it's no big deal, like, you're going to be fine. Whereas as you get older, you have all that wear and tear of everything else that you did for years, I think each little each time your your technique is off a little bit, I think it's going to it's going to play a bigger role, right. So I'm a huge fan of like, when people are trying to build muscle, like, the best thing you can do is really focus on execution and technique, don't think that it's always about like just trying to push yourself to the wall, like as far as you can, doing as much as you can, like, you're gonna have to dial it back. And the best thing you can do is get away with getting more out of each rep. Because I think that that's going to really help with the injury aspect of it. And again, as you know that the best thing you can do is do things that are going to you're going to be able to do for long periods of time, that's where you're really going to see that that big difference there with with everything. So

Philip Pape 53:23

yeah, you know, that whole thing about about form, it's spot on. And yet, I can't tell you how many guys I've seen men and women, but I'm in a barbell club, it's a lot of dudes that are like 4050 years old, and everyday at some lesson about how they hurt themselves and how they're not going to do it again. And it's like, we just don't learn, you always have to go through a little I did that myself, I ended up having back surgery and not because of lifting. But it definitely made me more conscious of every time I lift, I'm going to focus on a cue for this lift every rep every time I go forever. Like that's so important. Well, you know, I

Jeff Hoehn 53:53

think two for one for guys, it's more of a ego thing, right? Like, like, I think that's the big thing there. It's all about, oh, this person does this, so I gotta match that. But it's like, how you perform that lift is just so important, right? I had this conversation with Steve Hall actually. And like, we talked about how, like, you know, you see these guys in the gym that would do like, they would have like two plates on there. And you're like, Oh, that's amazing, but you never really like paid attention to how they did that, how they actually performed it. Right. And that that is such a big part of it. So you know, I think I think that's important but then you have people on the other side that I think overly focused on technique and then they don't ever progress so a light Yeah. So you need to find that that that happy medium there. But you know, with the weight training, I think the reason that's so important to get good technique is because you got to think you're you're doing you know multiple reps, multiple sets per week and again, you mess up if your performs not perfect once it's no big deal. But you know, you do that over and over again. And these things do start to add up. That's why with like weight training, you don't see a lot of like, acute injuries where it's like it happens right then and there. It's more of like build up of like, you have like more aches and like tendinitis and things like that.

Philip Pape 54:58

Yeah. So what about you what about your personal approach to recovery. You know, you've probably dealt with some setbacks and failure, you know, injuries, things like that. What have you dealt with that?

Jeff Hoehn 55:07

Can I actually I know you had one more question there about the the female women. Oh, yeah, reference. Do you mind? If

Philip Pape 55:13

I go over that? No, go for it, please? Well, I

Jeff Hoehn 55:15

was gonna say women on average, tend to recover a little bit quicker than than men do. They just the way that their bodies are, they're just, they can recover a little bit quicker. And that goes for, like, in between sets in between sessions. You know, part of it, too, is probably like, men do have more muscle mass than than women do, generally. So I think that probably plays a big role. And again, just like absolute weightlifting is gonna play a role in that, but but women do tend to recover a little bit quicker. And so really, like, what does that mean? I mean, all that means for women is that they can probably get away with a little bit more training volume, like their programs might have a little bit more volume than like, compared to men. Again, this is generally a

Philip Pape 55:51

double edged sword, right? Because you create that volume two, yep.

Jeff Hoehn 55:56

And they can maybe rest a little bit short and long, shorter, shorter in between sets. But again, you know, obviously, individual variation, there is the most important and you obviously have to kind of see it for yourself and what that's going to look like so

Philip Pape 56:10

yeah, women should be wearing all this stuff is on average, right? Like every individual is going to be respond differently. There is it's funny, you mentioned that about the weight because I remember looking into this not long ago, there are some actual genetic differences that independent of the weight lifted that do help women recover better. I just don't remember the details. estrogens involved.

Jeff Hoehn 56:28

estrogens, estrogen, and I think two women typically have like more type one fiber, yes, fibers than men. And so those those are a little bit more fatigue resistant, and they can recover quicker. They're they're a little bit more like endurance tight muscles.

Philip Pape 56:43

I knew you'd have the answer. So there you go. Yeah. So so then what about you? Is there any particular story you've got about recovery?

Jeff Hoehn 56:52

Yeah, um, so I think for me, this is going to be so you kind of mentioned this, I did have like, for a while, I just would always run into shoulder issues. And again, that just came down to me being young Dom Just just always trained in like, upper body and like benchpress, and like chest. But also for me, it was just, I felt like I was at the like, this was like, probably my, I'm 31 I always forget holding, I'm now 31. And when I was in my like, early to mid 20s, it was all about like, I want it to be jacked. So I just would try to train six, seven days a week, I didn't really pay attention to nutrition sleep, I was like, What the hell's sleep, that doesn't matter. And it was like, if I went two days, without training, I was like, Oh, crap, I'm gonna lose all my game, I'm gonna lose all my games, you know. And so it was all about just going in the gym and just like hammering out like volume, and just like, going for the pump just doing as much as I can Arnold style, right? Yep. And while I while I do think that that will lend itself to some results for a little bit. If you just keep doing that, it's like, eventually, your body's just going to be under recovered. And you're just not going to see any progress, right. Because, you know, if you if you over if you train too much, and you don't have the recovery there and again, this can be this can be calories, this can be how many days off of training you take, like, if you don't have that in place, your body's going to prioritize recovering before it's going to prioritize building muscles, you can be doing all this stuff, and you're just, honestly, you're wasting your time because it can be good for you. But you're just, you're not going to see the results you want you to be putting in a lot of work for not a lot. So for me, you know, a big part of learning more was like, Man, I need to focus more on things outside of the gym, right? You know, so things that can really improve recovery again, or, you know, obviously taking some time away from fat loss dieting that can improve recovery, like being at maintenance like that can help being a surplus that can help a little bit, you know, sleep working on your sleep that can be helpful with the recovery side of things that can increase how much you can do, you know, managing your stress. And then again, this is mental stress, but also the other stressors that I that I was talking about earlier, that can be helpful. And then your training program as well too, right. So we talked about frequency, intensity, like managing all that and making sure that you're not just like, training balls to the wall every single day. And just you know, like, that's going to be super important. And game changer for me. And that's again, going to come down to like your programming and things like that. But also another big thing too, is like making sure that you're not like if muscle building is your main goal, making sure that you're not like trying to weight train, but then also you're like trying to play three sports on the side, you're trying to run a marathon like that, that also goes into the recovery aspect of it as well, too. Oh, I had one more. Shoot, I hope it comes back to me here in a second. There was one more that I wanted to say that I think is big but I think I think getting all the you know, getting your training variables in play are going to be super important. But yeah, those those would be the big things that we're gonna have

Philip Pape 59:43

to follow your podcast to get the other the other one because you're teasing it. I wish I can't think of it. That's all good. No, it's all good. But you know how these guys there's only so much you can cram into one. One conversation here. Yeah. So all right, cool. I know we're running short on time. Just couple more questions if you don't mind. And of course, man, yep. I want to pick your brain about the podcast, the mind muscle connection, because, you know, you've had, you've had all these big names on your show, at least they're big, they're idols to me, you know, I love listening to these guys. And we were talking before about the friendships and connections you make. Who's been the most influential because of the personal relationships from podcasts?

Jeff Hoehn 1:00:20

Man, that is a good question. I saw that on there and I was like, man, who is it gonna be? So? You know, I would like I told you off air you know, everybody that comes on I feel like I do take away something from and it's like it's really changed my mind on things and I'm really grateful for that. People that I think have had the greatest influence from having them on the podcast. Brian Borstein is a big one. He does my programming now. So Brian Borstein is a good one. I think you just had him on recently, Brandon Cruz has had a big impact. Jeremiah bear is another one that's had a big impact on me. I would say those are probably my my top three. You know, I followed Steve Hall for a long time. And I always love chatting with him. I always get a ton out of hit of chats with him. But I mean, I've also had other like Eric Trexler, Eric Helms, like those that are great guys, too. But in terms of like people I've had on reoccurring, those would probably be the biggest like three for me.

Philip Pape 1:01:11

So great games, great games for people to look up. And so I have a funny story about Eric Helms and Eric Trexler. So as I was reaching out to folks like you to be on my show, I reached out to Eric Helms, or at least I thought I did, and it was Eric Drexler and I had said all this stuff. And he's like, Thanks, man. But you got the wrong Eric. So embarrassing. Don't worry, it happens all the time. I said, I'll hit you up later. let some time pass pass the awkward moment I'll get back to you. I hope he still wants to come on because I got his I get his partner Greg, Greg knuckles to come on in a few months, because I use macro factor and a bunch of my clients do and I love to talk and all that stuff. So and then the reverse dieting and all that stuff. Cool, man, Brian. Yeah, Brian Borstein. Brandon Cruz, Jeremiah bear Steve Hall and other so really good.

Jeff Hoehn 1:01:56

Yeah. That's that's funny with drinks with Eric. Correct. So I'm sure he was, like you said, I'm sure he that's the first time and it probably won't be the last time that that happens. So

Philip Pape 1:02:04

no, no, I have to have to butter him up. When I say again. i What's I mean, have you received, you receive a lot of feedback from listeners, I'm sure for the podcast as well. Like, what's some of the most memorable impact, you know, feedback that you've gotten?

Jeff Hoehn 1:02:21

Yeah, I think, you know, I haven't. I guess more so from clients would probably be where I would take this, but I think you kind of also had that clients in there as well, too. And, you know, I think for me to go back to what, again, what we talked about earlier, it's, you know, obviously, helping people get get like, their physique goals, and like, the body composition goals that they want. But anytime I get like a message from a client that's like, Hey, I either got to, like, you know, I got a promotion and this helped like, or it's like, hey, my doctor said, I can get off blood pressure medication, or like, Hey, I'm fitting into these clothes I haven't fit into for years, or like, anything like that, like, to me, that's those are the best like messages to get because, like I said, I think if you can improve somebody's quality of life, like that's just you can't you can't buy that and like, that's, you know, it's it's invaluable. And so that those are my favorite, like, kind of feedback that I've gotten from from people. And even even to like, I can't think of anybody off the top of my head from like, a podcast standpoint, you know, people are like, Hey, listen, I enjoy it. But like, anytime you get a message on like, social media about like, Hey, I've been, you know, they don't like your stuff, but they're like, Hey, I've been following along. And you know, you've really helped me out like, those are always the best ones. And you know, I, anytime you can improve somebody's quality of life, I think it's amazing. So

Philip Pape 1:03:37

I agree it and don't discount the fact that there are a lot of guys like me who are coaches are getting into coaches who listen to guys like you who are also learning to be better coaches. And you're basically exponentially you know, making a bigger impact that way.

Jeff Hoehn 1:03:49

Yeah, absolutely, man. Yeah, yeah, that too, right. Yeah, you definitely don't you don't think about that, too. So that's, that's great to hear. Yeah.

Philip Pape 1:03:55

Yeah. Cool, man. So I think you know what's coming next, because you obviously are well prepared and looked at my bullet list of topics. But What question did you wish I had asked, and what is your answer?

Jeff Hoehn 1:04:05

Oh, man, I did see this one. And I was like, You know what, maybe we'll run out of time on this one. So what question do I think you do? I wish you would have asked me that you did it. And what's my answer? So I think it would be what is my favorite sport? Okay. All right. personal question.

Philip Pape 1:04:21

Is, is that what we want? Is that Well, I wouldn't have thought to ask them, so yeah, go for it. What's your favorite? So

Jeff Hoehn 1:04:27

it's hockey. I love hockey. My favorite team is the St. Louis Blues. So I'm a big hockey fan. And I play I play once I play roller hockey once a week and so that's kind of like my my cardio. So that would be my that would be my question. Kind of a cop out on that one. But

Philip Pape 1:04:39

not at all, man. No, it's good to learn more about you for sure. Hockey. It's funny. I grew up in Florida, so I didn't grow up watching hockey. But then I went to I went to Rensselaer Polytechnic. It's an engineering school in New York, and they were Division One hockey team. So there's nothing like like watching hockey in person is awesome for people listening. It's great.

Jeff Hoehn 1:04:57

It is so I'm from St. Louis, Missouri. So I think Got might have just said that but St. Louis Blues my team but man, I'll tell you what if you've ever been to a hockey game, gotta go it's for kind of easy. Where do you where do you live at now?

Philip Pape 1:05:07

I'm in Connecticut. Connecticut. Gotcha. Or no no professional sports here. Yeah, right. Just resurrecting that. Yeah. Cool, man. Yeah, actually the final four right Yukons in there with Miami and because I'm from Miami and a canes fan, and I also have to root for UConn. It's a little bit of a conflict up here. Yeah.

Jeff Hoehn 1:05:24

Well, I guess this is now you get to find out who you're really rooting for.

Philip Pape 1:05:27

I guess. So. Whoever My wife tells me. No, that's That's true. All right, man. So where can listeners learn more about you? Yeah.

Jeff Hoehn 1:05:34

So podcasts like you mentioned my muscle connection. Three, three episodes a week, I have a guest once a week as well to Instagram is where I'm most active. So Jeff HOEH en underscore. And so those would be the top two places that I'm that I'm most active on and where I would push people to cool.

Philip Pape 1:05:53

I'll do that. I'll put that in the show notes podcast for sure. Which is an easy request because you're already listening to a podcast, just go follow his. And then IG Jeff Payne, underscore. Alright man, it's been an awesome conversation. Really appreciate you coming on the show.

Jeff Hoehn 1:06:06

Ya know, I appreciate you having me on. It's like we said like I said off air. It's always interesting to be on the guest side of things, but it's always fun to chat. And I honestly feel like this one by pretty quickly so much introductions man and I love what you're doing and yeah, keep it up.

Philip Pape 1:06:20

Likewise, learn from the best, sir take care of you. If you've been inspired by today's interview, and are ready to take action and build momentum on your health and fitness journey, just schedule a free 30 minute nutrition momentum call with me using the link in my show notes. I promise not to sell or pitch you on anything, but I will help you gain some perspective and guidance so we can get you on the right track toward looking and feeling your best

Philip Pape 4/28/23 Philip Pape 4/28/23

Ep 65: Programming in Kettlebells for Strength, Powerlifting, and the Big 3 Lifts with Wil Del Pizzo

Today, we have a special guest joining us - Wil Del Pizzo! Wil shares his insights on kettlebell training, the Big 3 lifts, programming lifts in a group setting and youth sports, and advice for trainers and coaches.

Wil is a fitness expert with a passion for kettlebell and strength training. He's a StrongFirst Certified and TRX Certified trainer with over 13 years of experience in the fitness industry. He was a former Strength Coach for the Chatsworth High School Baseball Team, where he helped produce several high-level athletes and professionals. He is also the owner of Built Strong Strength Club, where you can download some awesome programs for kettlebells, strength and power, and the Big 3.
__________
Book a FREE 30-minute call with Philip here.
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Today you’ll learn all about:

[1:30] How Wil got into the fitness industry
[3:00] Why kettlebells for strength training
[6:37] Quick snapshots of kettlebell workouts
[9:25] Barbells and the big 3 lifts
[11:59] Squats, workout, and progressive overload
[16:29] The overhead press as the fourth lift
[18:32] TRX suspension training
[22:05] Programming powerlifts and progression in a group setting
[22:16] Tony shares what he likes about Philip and the Wits & Weights community
[26:20] Coaching the individual
[28:07] Balancing skill development with strength training, conditioning, periodization, and recovery in training for youth sports
[35:06] Choosing the right coaching client
[43:04] Staying mentally tough despite the struggles in the fitness industry
[45:55] How to connect with Wil
[47:00] Outro

Episode resources:

Wil’s website: https://www.builtstrongstrength.com/
His Instagram accounts: @wildelpizzo and @builtstrongstrength

FREE 30-minute nutrition call with Philip ⬇️
https://witsandweights.com/free-call

Learn about 1-on-1 coaching ⬇️
https://witsandweights.com/coaching

Ask Philip anything ⬇️

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Transcript

Wil Del Pizzo 00:00

get one or two kettlebells with you and really get you going and get you a great workout and consistently over and over and over the volume of training that you can do with kettlebells I have found can surpass traditional barbell training. And once again, that's depending on programming.

Philip Pape 00:20

Wil Del Pizzo 01:35

So I was in another industry before I even got into the fitness world. But I was that typical gym rat. So I was a high school athlete and we lifted poorly at your high school. Sure, variety, you know, football and track and stuff like that. It's about volume and moving as much weight as you can and not necessarily the safest. That's evolved a lot in high schools as evolved a lot in high schools. But, you know, went to college and I got into broadcasting, but I always just kind of a gym rat got back to the gym in my early 20s. And just kind of stayed there. And like any young buck, I was all about upper body. Very little legs, guys. Yeah. Yeah. Right. You know, because that's what's the most impressive part is those big cannons, but did that stuff and then over the years, I've just kind of evolved and kind of always kind of kept coming back into the industry until I went well. I'm not happy doing what I'm doing. So what do I do? And what do I know how to do? One was play rock and roll. And the other one was to lift weights. So I said, Well, let's see. Let's do both. Hey, why don't I go and have a good time? Right? That's awesome. That's funny, because I used to be a musician, myself. And I could see, I could see similar some similarities between those things and how you think but uh, so you've been in the fitness industry now? Solid for about 13 years, right? Yeah, coming up on 14. Yeah, but 14 years. Yeah. And you specialize. So this is one thing I want to kind of clue in on a little bit, you specialize in kettlebell training. And I want to talk about that, because I don't think we've talked about that on the show. My experience with kettlebells was was to CrossFit. They did CrossFit for eight years.

Philip Pape 03:10

Russian kettlebell swings, and you know my wads and I do have a kettlebell handle for my dumbbells at home, where I pull it out after deadlifts or something for some posterior work. But why kettlebells for strength training,

Wil Del Pizzo 03:24

bang for the buck, mostly, it's bang for the buck. It's really kind of all encompassing, I can build strength, I can build muscle, I can build power, and I can get a cardio aerobic workout, kind of all in there. And you can kind of mess with parameters, like any program, you can kind of mess with parameters and do that type of stuff. So it's really kind of bang for the buck for me, as athletes and athletes that I train, posterior chain is big, you know, you really need get strong glutes, strong hamstring, lower back, strong stuff like that. So it's really kind of helps with that explosiveness and all that conditioning and stuff like that. So I know as a tool, as a tool, I can use a kettlebell and get a whole lot of work done. As opposed to like barbells, dumbbells, you know, cables, bands, all that other stuff. And there's nothing wrong with all that other stuff. I'm a deadlift, or by kind of heart is so there's nothing wrong with that stuff. But just with kettlebells I know I can get one or two kettlebells with you and really get you going and get you a great workout and consistently over and over and over the volume of training that you can do with kettlebells I have found can surpass traditional barbell training. And once again, that's depending on programming you can get,

Philip Pape 04:44

you know, I guess Yeah. So that's interesting, because what you just said there's, you know, the mode, the mode of your training and what your goals are and what you're trying to accomplish is the one of the most important considerations. So you said speed, work power and also conditioning? And that makes a lot of sense. Would you say somebody who just has purely a strength goal that isn't an athlete and looking for explosiveness or speed or conditioning? is better off with barbells? Or is there still a place for the kettlebells? In that context,

Wil Del Pizzo 05:13

I'm biased. I'm biased. Here's the thing with bells, though, like there's a learning curve, you got to put time into them, there's little nuances with them that you kind of have to figure out and do. We don't call it Training, we call it practice, we practice with the bells, okay? You have to work with them and get comfortable with them, it was one of those things you just kind of randomly pick up every once in a while, you're gonna get beat up a little bit, as opposed to and I'm not knocking any of these, but like a benchpress, you can kind of think there's nuances to the benchpress. But you can kind of get underneath the barbell and kind of muscle around a little bit, the kettlebell, if you try to fight it, it just chews you up so badly that you kind of have to put it down and reassess what you're doing what's going on. So in terms of like strength, the way that loads are in the way we can adjust those things, you can build a lot of strength in a short amount of time with the kettlebell.

Philip Pape 06:16

Cool. Yeah, you know, I was my next question was going to just segue into barbells, because I'm biased on that side. And I'm actually getting more intrigued by the kettlebells. Because the a good good friend of mine, he's also coach here in Enfield, his name is wrong, Andrew Romeo, he's got he came from across the background. So now it's more strength conditioning, there's a ton of different kettlebells. And I'm like, what else? What else could we do with those? So what if you just give us a quick snapshot of what either an individual workout would look like? Like, let's say you're working? Lower body? what that might look like using kettlebells.

Wil Del Pizzo 06:52

So I like to do Turkish get ups as a warm up.

Philip Pape 06:55

Oh, get ups got

Wil Del Pizzo 06:56

right. Yeah, it's so if you want to take skill, yeah, I mean, so you but you can break that even if you break it down into segments, you can still get a lot out of the Turkish get up. So like a Turkish get up would be a warm up. Three by one,

Philip Pape 07:10

hold on, just explain the Turkish get up for people.

Wil Del Pizzo 07:13

So Turkish get a basically you're lying on the ground with a kettlebell over your chest. And you continue to hold it overhead and over your chest as you try to stand up as you stand up. Right. So there's various movements in there, it promotes hip mobility, shoulder mobility, hip stability, shoulder stability, spine, core legs, it gets everything. So as a warm up, it's great as kind of a warm up, because you're just kind of priming the gears a little bit to get ready to go. So I would start with some Turkish get ups three by ones, three sets of one on each side. With a moderate weight, if you want to go heavy, heavy is a relative term, but with a moderate weight, just to kind of get everything going. I would throw some goblet squats in there, verse session for a second. So that would be my warm up a strength session would be goblet squats, any form of goblet squats. That's where you hold the bell kind of in front of your chest and you do squats. single rack squats with one battle Bell over the side double rack squats. You can do various squats like that. You can even do lunges, or everybody's favorite, but Bulgarian split

Philip Pape 08:17

Oh, yes. Yeah. I haven't found somebody who actually loves those maybe better than I know. But yeah, well, that's a

Wil Del Pizzo 08:25

sick individual, sick, sick person. So we can do stuff along that lines, maybe even some cleans to work on that posterior change chain to get that pull in there to get some lats kinds of shoulders in there. And if you want to go like bare bones, then I would end with some kettlebell swings, like 10 by 10s 10, every minute on the minute for 10 minutes. So get your 100 swings in. So that way you kind of get the whole lower body workout and get a good kind of cardio workout in there also. And that would be really, really, really, really basic bare bones.

Philip Pape 08:57

No, that's great. Just so people get an idea of of the versatility of the kettlebell and how you could load it right. Again, I haven't learned much about it. Other than like, maybe Dan John, I know he's big into kettlebells Oh, yeah. Yeah. Guys like that. I can respect it. You know, when you hear a guy talking about it like that, and he's big, strong Dude, that's trained a lot of athletes and Olympic lifters. You know, there's respect for that. So let's move over to barbells now, okay, and we'll start with the big three but then I want to add another one to that in a bit. And I incorporate personally these these, the barbell movements multiple times every week, you know, in some capacity and the listeners hear me talk about them a lot. But I just love to hear your perspective as an experience trainer and strength coach, like talk about barbells

Wil Del Pizzo 09:43

Yeah, barbells is kind of a staple. I'm not a big power clean guy. I'm a big jerk guy. I'm not a big like barbell snatch guy. I'd rather do a kettlebell snatch, hey, but I'm not a big like barbell snatch guy like, I can teach it and I have taught it is The nuances of it once again, you really got to break down the last like six weeks of this, six weeks of that six weeks of that. So we've kind of stripped those away. And we just kind of did the big drum here, a big three here at our facility. So that'd be the deadlift, the bench and the squat, because you can get the most out of those lifts the the most compound, you can make arguments for the bench about the functionality of it. There's not a lot of times you're going to be on your back, like pushing a truck off your chest. But hey, you know, don't kill the sacred cow. But you can, you know,

Philip Pape 10:32

well, you know, I've heard I've heard that argument. But then the counter argument is the leverage you get with that allows you to push a lot more load than say the overhead press right. So it gives you a little extra stimulus. Yeah, continue?

Wil Del Pizzo 10:43

Well, yeah. And with the bench, like, it's really sports specific, like a football player like alignment, I'd be like, yeah, you need a bench press, because that's all you're doing is just that forward pushing motion. So yeah, that makes sense to me. But with the big three, you just kind of hit everything. You know, the deadlift, you kind of hit everything, the bench, you kind of hit everything in the squat, you kind of get everything, you know, you get that lat active let you get that lat activation, you know, you're grinding yourself into the ground, you got to brace your core, you kind of have to incorporate everything into them. So in terms of functionality, I think we all understand what a squat is, like how purposeful that is. We do that every day. And the deadlift, the hip hinge. Oh, yeah, we all we all. Yeah, all the time. We all pick up stuff poorly, all the time. So just the hip hinge and the squat alone. Like if the workout gods came down and said, No more exercises, you only get one, choose the squat.

Philip Pape 11:41

Love it. Right with you 100% 100% All day,

Wil Del Pizzo 11:45

you can just squat all day. So we incorporate a lot of that. In our training. Here. We base a lot of our training here at the facility on those big three lifts.

Philip Pape 11:55

Yeah. And you covered, you touched on a few other things. I mean, first that you said if that's the only thing you can do, why the squat, it's the squat. And it touched on the fact that you activate some of these other muscle groups, right? There's a lot of stabilization and isometrics going on. And people listening. You know, you mentioned the core, you mentioned the lats, there's so many things. Are you frozen? Or no, no, I'm here. You're just like, we're still okay. That's some mindfulness. They're listening that says something, I gotta keep getting better. So yeah, just like when somebody says, How do I get a six pack? It's like, Well, do you squat? Like start there, you know, get get. But then of course, once you're super strong, and you want to go develop your physique further, you can throw other things in. So I love that on the squat, do you do the low bar or high bar you mix it up, mix it up.

Wil Del Pizzo 12:46

So myself, I do a high bar squat, I just find that's the most comfortable for me. In terms of our classes, we do every type of squat. So it's not like you'd come in like so Fridays are squat day, Mondays are our deadlift day. Wednesdays are bench day. And then Fridays are squat. They just talk programming. So we do every type of squat. Right, so I'm doing back squats. I'm doing box squats. I'm doing bandit squats. I'm doing front squats and doing Zurcher squats. Which No Yes. Yeah. You know? Yeah, split squats, you know. So I don't think we've ever repeated a workout. So if you come in and do if we come in and just do a normal everyday squat, squat, we'll do threes, right? Do it reps of three. It might be three months, maybe four before you just come back to a regular squat.

Philip Pape 13:47

So in that context is are your clients trying to this is a group group context, right?

Wil Del Pizzo 13:53

Yeah, let's go into the group context. Yes. Okay. No, actually, you know, I do all my clients.

Philip Pape 13:57

So how do you how do they progress? Like how do you know they're getting stronger? If they're varying the squats? Are they are they testing one RMS on different variants regularly or what's the progression scheme?

Wil Del Pizzo 14:08

So that depends on the person okay, you know, I have I have some people who 5060 year olds no reason to one rep max I'm sure you know, you know what I mean? There's no reason to tense a skill of itself. Yeah, I mean, come on, we're just trying to be healthy and that stuff like that I keep immaculate records. So I will keep the same weight go more reps go more weight, less reps. So we just have those kind of parameters. Depth is a big thing. Your mobility and stuff like that. In terms of so that's the one on once every it like all my clients and all our classes, I base it off the big three, and I forced kettlebells onto people. Work man because I'm such an advocate of them. But so yeah, the in terms of stuff like that you kind of have to Go with the individual with classes. We keep once again, kind of Immaculate records, we see what's going on. And people know what's what's happening. When they're lifted more, they're there, five rep PR and a three rep PR, when they come back to it, they know where they're at. Got it. And so we do have strength contests here, where we've logged everything. So we can kind of see, like, you know, six months ago, you were doing 100 pounds, and now you're doing 150 pounds, and as necessary is increased. So we kind of keep those records just to kind of let them know where they're at.

Philip Pape 15:32

Cool. Yeah, I was just curious, because that's super important. We talked about all the time, as well as progressive overload and making sure you're actually training harder each time. And it's funny because I just recently finished a bulk and in December, and I was doing a conjugate or Westside style program. And every Monday and Tuesday, I'm doing a different variant of a lift, usually rotate through like six or seven, and don't come back to the same lift to like eight weeks later. You know, but but that involves testing one, two rooms, it's a whole different thing. Yeah.

Wil Del Pizzo 16:00

And they're 10 by ones and they're maxing on every day, I read a lot of the West Side barbell stuff, love their stuff. I mean, you just got to concede the fact that they know what they're talking about. So we take a little bit of what they do, I take a little bit of what they do. And then we kind of kind of follow on the back end of it with doing little left behind to enhance the deadlift enhance the bench to

Philip Pape 16:23

accessories. Yeah, yeah. So one of my favorite lifts is the fourth lift. If we haven't talked about the overhead press, right, often quite often called the forklift. So I like that fact that it's hard. And it's you know, you cannot you have to be careful how you progress and it requires seems to require more volume to actually progress. But where does that fit into to all this from your perspective?

Wil Del Pizzo 16:45

So, you know, we all do an overhead lifts. We have a specific arm class, I'll do overhead lifts. I bench that I benched. I pair that with the bench. Okay, yeah. Right. So I pair that with the bench. So we will do that overhead lifts. We don't have a specific like, okay, like the fourth day is the overhead, right? Overhead Press day. I don't know the need for it. You know, it's kind of one of those activities is like I get it everybody says like, it's really satisfactory to like, pick heavyweight up and push it over your head. I would say it's more fun to pick up heavyweight off the Florida deadlift.

Philip Pape 17:27

It doesn't have to be a competition. Yeah, right.

Wil Del Pizzo 17:32

Do what you want. So I we do a lot of I do a lot of overhead pressing, a lot of singular overhead pressing, that barbell overhead pressing, you'll get a lot of that hyperextending in that back with a lot of people. And so they want to sit way into it. Yeah, and now it's kind of a risk reward type thing for me. So we'll work in some overhead, or I'll work in some overhead press with a lot of clients. But we'll stay kind of below the shoulder a little bit and work a little bit more and more mobility and stuff like that as well. Just raw power overhead.

Philip Pape 18:08

Right? Yeah. It's interesting, because it used to be it used to be an Olympic lift right? years ago. And then they got rid of it like the 60s, because of some controversy between Russia and the US. There's a whole story behind this.

Wil Del Pizzo 18:19

There's been some controversy between Russia the US. Yeah, so it's definitely

Philip Pape 18:24

been one or two. Anyway, so I want to talk about group classes. But before that, I see that you're TRX certified. I wanted to ask about TRX suspension training, because I personally haven't done it. I've heard it talked about the guys on like mind pump and other great podcasts I listened to talk about all the time. And I've even recommended it to some clients because of their equipment situation. So can you explain what you can do with that kind of suspension training, everything.

Wil Del Pizzo 18:52

So it's great, I found a great for progressions. Some people can't do, they can't push up, they can't do a push up off the floor, they just lacked the coordination, they might lack the core strength, they might just lack pure strength in order to get a proper push up. And, you know, we start from the plank, okay, let's get a strong plank, and we kind of build up from there. But it allows me to adjust the difficulty very quickly and instantaneously. So we can still get a push up motion going and learn how to activate that core, learn how to move everything in the same area. You know, it's great for pulling exercises. You know, we're really smashing those rhomboids together really, really working on that scapular control, which a lot of people need a lot of work with, you know that for their shoulder stability, squats all day long. People need that neck cushioning, but they need the handles in order to make sure they can sit down and stay upright. Upper, you know, keep their proper posture because they just don't have the mobility and they so it gives them that little extra sense of cushioning and, and, and okay, I can do this and I'm right there. And we can work on single leg stuff with the TRX. A lot of core exercises because you're suspended, you know, think of, think of a stability ball, like a big stability ball, ISO ball, like, you can do a lot of stuff with that with the course. So it's a version of the stability ball without having this big rubber ball sitting on the corner, I can hang it around and do a bunch of things with it. So you can kind of, you know, your little pretty sets of curls and stuff like there too.

Philip Pape 20:36

So in your, in your gym is that that's primarily the, the mode you use it in is getting people from, you know, mobility or physical limitations to full depth or full scapular retraction, or whatever it is, before they go to the main lift.

Wil Del Pizzo 20:50

Yeah, I'll use it as auxiliary lift, people are rehabbing and they're cleared for physical therapist, I'll get a lot of those people and knees and shoulders and stuff like that. So they have a functional range of motion in their joint, they just need to get a little bit more out of it. So for like your knees, your hips, and like that, we need to get a little more depth out of that squat. You know, they're functional, but we can get a little more depth out of it. And that just provides that safety that they're looking for. So in terms of like putting it in groups, use it all the time for rows use all the time. For inverted rows, we do a lot of core off of that stuff. Because we just kind of, once again, what I like to smash posterior training, sir. Two to one ratio is usually what I do. So for our exercise, we do two back exercises.

Philip Pape 21:41

I love them. And because that's that strong back is a good back. I mean, basically, I'd rather I'd rather have a stride like this I'd rather have a strong bad back and weak bad back. You know, I mean, if you're gonna put it that way, too.

Wil Del Pizzo 21:52

Yeah, I mean, what is it don't don't wish for lighter weights wish for a stronger back? Yes.

Philip Pape 21:59

So I'm asking you, I'm asking you these questions, because it's my show and I get to ask things and Elena learn about but I know a lot of people listening also don't know about some of these things. So it's good to have options and people wondering, oh, you know, that's that's what I could do. If I can't quite do this movement is potentially look at, you know, TRX system or whatever.

22:17

My name is Tony from a strength lifter in my 40s Thank you to Phil in his Wits, & Weights community for helping me learn more about nutrition, and how to implement better ideas into my strength training. Phil has a very, very good understanding of macros, and chemical compounds and hormones and all that. And he's continuously learning. That's what I like about Phil, he's got a great sense of humor, he's very relaxed, very easy to talk to. One of the greatest things about Phil, in my view is that he practices what he preaches, he also works out with barbells, he trains heavy, not as heavy as me, but he trains heavy. So if you talk with him about getting in better shape, eating better, he's probably going to give you some good advice. And I would strongly recommend you talk with him. And we'll help you out. Thanks.

Philip Pape 23:00

So group classes, I did group classes for years and CrossFit. I've seen I've seen the benefits of it in terms of the camaraderie and the community and the efficiency and all these other things. What are the challenges that you as a coach have to split your time between people? So how do you do that with the power lifts and make sure people are using good form?

Wil Del Pizzo 23:23

So we kind of cap our classes, we don't I don't like to get 40 or 50 people in a class? You know, it's just I can do it. It's not that I haven't done it is just, you know, it can get sloppy. As you can see in some of these some of these gyms. So I'll pair I have you have to make a quick assessment of the class and who's in the class, you know, your strong ones are you know who your ones are, you know, your spectrum. Yeah. So I can kind of see what's going on. And it depends on how many people in the class, sometimes I'll just throw all my strong people over on one side. Okay, you know, you're all working on these barbells over here, because I don't have to, I can see him from across the room and yell something they can click in, you know, so I can focus more of my time over on the people who need a little bit more attention, and then I can progress them up. Right? It's not always like we start with PVC pipes a lot of the time. Sure, you know, and then we just kind of build up from there. If it's a bigger if I can just focus on those two or three, leave everybody else alone quote unquote, alone, then I'll do that. Sometimes you have to like okay, who am I really, really strong people. Okay, I'm gonna start pairing them in groups with people who need a little bit more attention because there's a lot of people who need a lot of attention. So then I trust them enough and we're kind of in the same mindset that they can help coach me up a little bit. You know what I mean, Buddy System Yeah, so that way and it helps pull. I hate the term weaker, but it helps pull the weaker ya know the future. Oh, yes, it helps bring them up and gets everybody incorporated and kind of helping each other out. So you have to make a quick assessment of who's in your class and what's going on. There's a lot of times you got heavy hitters in all your classes. Everybody, you know, everybody's a heavy hitter, you're like, This is what we're doing. Don't kill yourself. Let's go pretty independent. Yeah, so independent study. But, you know, you kind of pair what's going on. And then you kind of see the new people and you make a quick assessment on the fly, how they move if they move correctly, or if they move if they move in a safe manner. That's the goal and all group classes, not everybody's going to want to get into the nuance of mastering that deadlift, but they want to deadlift. So you want to make sure we have everybody moving safely. Yep. Right, moving safely. That's it, I'm gonna go if we can move safely. And I can push up and keep on pushing. Yeah, I'm gonna keep on pushing up. But you kind of make that assessment, the individuals like, oh, okay, we've hit where you want to be. Right? And that's fine. That's where you want to be. Hopefully, you'll see what's going on, and come on through. But we want to move everybody safely. Got it. And that's all we want to do is just move everybody safely move everybody as efficiently as we possibly can.

Philip Pape 26:15

Yeah, so that sounds like an important thing, that somebody who's looking for guidance, maybe, you know, they're not looking for the attention, or even the price point of personal training, they also don't want to go on their own and figure it out. Knowing that there's that safety is probably the number one thing I mean, I know what form talking to people, it's, yeah, you want to be efficient, you want to have vertical bar of path and all that so that you can lift the most weight. But at the end of the day, it comes down to avoiding injury and actually be able to do this for a long time. Right? Yeah, it's a good sounds like a good balance between that as long as it's a well run gym, like sounds like yours is that, you know, manages the, the size and properly, you know, pays attention to people that need it, and so on. So that's, that's cool.

Wil Del Pizzo 26:54

Right? You got you always got to coach the individual, you know, in the group atmosphere. And I wish I learned when I was doing youth sports, the high school, the baseball team that you mentioned earlier, you kind of have to coach the individuals and then get people in a position to succeed, right, and get them in places where they can kind of be because if you've worked, if you worked in a commercial gym, or ran commercial gyms or something like that, there's just people who just want to come in and just kind of move some weights, feel good, break a little bit of sweat and go home. Nothing wrong with that. And then there's the ones who want to come in, like, I am trying to get as big as a house and strong as a bear. Let's go. Yeah, you know, okay, let's go be that guy for a while. We try to, because we believe in or I certainly believe in those big three lifts, like the purpose of them. So we coach within those within that class, what we got going on, and then just kind of start putting people where they need to be, so they can get the most out of the class. I mean, it's a gym, people come to work out.

Philip Pape 28:02

Yeah, for sure. Yeah, they come to work out and maybe train, like you said, the serious ones are there to train and you get all kinds. So what about you mentioned the youth sports, I want to talk about that for a second. This is a high level baseball team, high school baseball team that you coached. And these are athletes, right? And they're also young, and there's a whole bunch of things that make them different from the general population. skill development, right? With the strength training, with the conditioning with recovery with periodization. So how do you make all that work?

Wil Del Pizzo 28:30

So once again, you got to assess what you got yourself into. So you know, usually freshmen come in, we'll kind of go a little bit like freshmen that come in, you'll get two types of people, ones who have been in the gym before, and ones who have no idea what you're talking about. Right, you know, they have no idea and that's fine. That's not their fault. That's just the way it is.

Philip Pape 28:55

That includes very talented, natural athletes that don't know anything I imagine, right? Right on

Wil Del Pizzo 29:01

the field, you get them in the gym, and they can kind of muscle their way through some things. You know, which is an

Philip Pape 29:06

opportunity for you as a coach right there.

Wil Del Pizzo 29:08

Yes, you go, Okay, here we go. Generally speaking, like they're athletes, so they kind of understand how their hips move. And it's very interesting through high school as they mature. And as they get bigger, how all of a sudden they're so uncoordinated because, you know, they're five, five, and then next year, they're six feet.

Philip Pape 29:28

Center, gravity moves and everything. Everything's moved

Wil Del Pizzo 29:30

on, everything's moved on it. So we go back to we want them to move efficiently. We want them to move safely. That's the most important thing. We want to teach the movement patterns. weight comes and load comes with time. We want to teach the movement patterns. So certainly with that new group that's coming in and like okay, what do we got what's going on? So we do a little bit more basic. Okay, let's work on these squats. Let's work on our push ups. Let's get some pull ups in there. Yeah, we will lift some weights, because there wants to lift some weight, we want to move them safely and as best as we can, and work them through the programming goals and what we're trying to do, because we want them to peak. Obviously, at the right time, we want injury free and all that other stuff. Our main goal in the strength room is to make sure they stay on the field and produce on the field. It doesn't matter what we're doing in the gym, if it doesn't, if it affects their play on the field, what we're doing is wrong. Because that's where they that's where that's where the magic happens on the field, in any sport, right? Doesn't matter is like, Oh, he's out there crushing squats, but his legs are so blast that he can't move on the footprint feels like the what was the point? You know, that's what offseasons for?

Philip Pape 30:47

Yeah, periodization you got it? Hey, right. So

Wil Del Pizzo 30:50

you know, we've worked through different parameters, we'll do kind of a stability phase. You know, making sure if there's a lot of single legged stuff, a lot of balance stuff, getting everything kind of back into the line. And then we'll go through a kind of a strength power phase, right, lifting, lifting weights, just to kind of put some masks on and we're talking about high schoolers. You just got to do what you can to get some mass on him because their metabolism is just hot. And yeah, so anything you do always under eating? Yeah, always under, always under always under drinking, too. It's pretty amazing

Philip Pape 31:23

gallon of milk a day, you give them that diet?

Wil Del Pizzo 31:26

Wow. No work. Yeah, it would work. It would work. So well. We certainly give nutritional advice just to kind of like, eat, you got to eat it, I'll be just happy just to get calories into you. Right. But you know, we coach them up that way. But we try to translate, try to get some weight on and try to get some strength and get some power. So that way it translates into feet on the field. And it doesn't mess him up too much. And it's a give and take. Because you get you get some kids who know everything. And that's fine. And they want to do some wrist curls like Well, why do you want to do wrist curls? Mark McGwire has huge forearms, amazing hit bombs and like well, maybe, you know, so, you know, let's get to the program first. And then let's get then you could do your wrist curls. I'm gonna get through all the program, maybe

Philip Pape 32:21

maybe do the deadlift first and see if that develops your forums. Right.

Wil Del Pizzo 32:24

Right. Well, that and that and that. And that is where you start to see like, where the rubber meets the road. You see where the animals are, you see the guys who are like, I just got by in town. And that's what I'm just gonna do. You see the guys who put the work the guys who put the work in the gym are usually the ones who started go have a long career, right? Athletically be it going to college or into the pros. I'm like that you can see it. The guys who put the work in, they get that extra set. Yep. You know, I mean, like, yeah, they're like, Oh, everybody else got three. You got four? Yeah, yeah, they go hard. They go hard. So we want everybody to move safely. When we get new kids in there, we want to kind of quick assessment. How does everybody move? Okay. And then once again, start piecing people together to kind of see what's going on. And that way I can focus on more tension here. Well, I can go over somewhere else and kind of yell a couple things. And they go, Yeah, I got it. And then keep on going back over to here. It levels out. It'll level out.

Philip Pape 33:29

Yeah, cool. I love learning about this, because I was never into athletics myself, you know, I'm just a spectator sport viewer. And it's good to hit here behind the curtain of the on the training side, because I know a lot of laymen are fans watching, like, you know, want to criticize the strength and conditioning programs. And like you said, there maybe it was a time that that was the case and things have gotten better. Have you? Do you still coach any youth sports or youth groups, maybe as part of your gym?

Wil Del Pizzo 33:56

I do get high school athletes in here, I do have more of a one on one thing. So I will get some high school athletes in here. So I get more than one on one. As opposed to the group. Our group classes are mostly just regular gym goers. And I joke, I joke. We have a lot of food today. It's pulled polar opposites, so we get all the CrossFitters who don't want to CrossFit anymore, but like, who like to lift? Yeah, so they'll come in here because we do a lot of the lifting. Yeah. And we get a lot of people who who went to the big box gyms and just get lost and they want to lift but it's scary. Because it's scary. If you have no idea what's going on, you just see all these the men and women over there lifting weights looking good and all this other stuff. So they just did a lot of people we get just end up like oh, I just end up on the treadmill because that's the only thing I know how to do or like little machines because I can look at the picture and I don't even know if I'm getting anything done. You know, so we get the heavy hitters and we get the people we like to coach up from the ground up. So it's a lot of fun in terms of asked Looks like that we want to make people move safely. That's all we're trying to do.

Philip Pape 35:03

Yeah, I hear you on that. And I mean, I'm a nutrition coach. So but I have all my clients during training, that's like almost a requirement now of working with me. And a lot of them, you know, are women. So I hear that as well. It's definitely a balance between, like, Do you have a home gym? And if not, what gym, you're going to? Do they have the equipment? Are you worried about the culture there? Is that a problem? There's all these factors, you have to, you know, play into it. So, all right. So from one coach to another, I'm always curious about how we best serve and impact our clients. Right. I think that starts by being clear on who you serve, and choosing the right client. And I think that's one area you wanted to kind of touch on is how do you as the coach choose the right client?

Wil Del Pizzo 35:48

Number, why are they looking for something that I provide? You know, I think when we all kind of started in this industry, we tried to be everything to everybody. I could do that. I could do that. I could do that. I could do that, you know, because you're just trying to just try the case. Yeah, just trying to pay some bills. Yeah, you know, take anybody, right? I'll take anybody you throw at me, you know, and he just ended up just getting so burnt out, because you're like, hell, I got everything. I'm all over the board. And some people can do that. That's not me. That's not me. I'm very singular. In my focus. I've gotten a very, very narrow scope. Maybe even to my detriment, but the like I said, I do care. I only do kettlebells. For myself. I actually gave up the barbell, October last year, and I said, You know what, I'm just going to do kettlebells. At least for a year, I'm not going to touch a barbell and they're not touch a dumbbell, I'm just going to do kettlebells. So, it so when you get a new client who comes in you go okay, well, am I going to be the best person? We have multiple trainers here? But are we going to be the best people for this person, because we want to set them up for success. We just don't want to come up here and just take their money and have them leave? You know, that's just not who we are. So am I going to get can I help this person? Right? Is they are they looking for something that I'm providing? Or do they want to I just blew my knee out and I knee rehab, and you're like, Well, I deadlift all day, you know, it's like, you know, I don't do really I don't do rehab. Yeah, you know, it's just you gotta go to a physical therapist for that. So you kind of have to be like, who am I as a trainer? And what do I provide? And will this person benefit from that it's all about the person who's coming in is not about you. So that person benefit from this. And if any of your everybody has red flags, if a couple of your red flags pop up, you need to walk away from that one, whatever your red flags are, everybody has them, whatever your red flags are, you need to go. Okay, like mine's crashed it. I have six weeks to lose 40 pounds, I'm going to a wedding. I'm like, I'm not your person. No. I'm not your person. I'm not going to do it. You can can we do it? Yes. You don't want to do that. And I don't want to be the person to be like, you tell everybody I failed because my trainer didn't XYZ for me and say, yeah,

Philip Pape 38:11

yeah, yeah. And if you think you're gonna convince them, otherwise, after you get started, you're, I think you're wrong on that count, because they're just gonna keep hammering that desire, after they start with you. And like you said, it's gonna be,

Wil Del Pizzo 38:24

it's gonna be a problem. So you got to figure out what your red flags are on what you don't want. Because if you want to, if you wake up in the morning, we've all had those days where you've had two or three clients back to back to back, we're like, Oh, my God, I am going to lose my mind. You know what I mean? Where they just suck the life, the life out of you. And that is not their fault. I learned that's your fault for choosing my fault for choosing them. There is a person out there for you can walk away it is okay. In the long run is much more beneficial for you and for them to turn somebody down. And only take the people that are your ideal clients. It makes you want to work harder, it makes it fun for them to come in. It just checks or checks all the boxes. You know, I will say there's been some times where I've had a couple red flags go up, but the person ended up being fantastic. You know, that's a rarity. But find out what your red flags are. Find out who you are, as a trainer, this is what I do. I'm gonna stay in this lane. Don't deviate, stay in your lane, a just find the people who want specifically that. And then after that, you can widen that lane a little bit, but this is who you are, this is what I do. This is who I am. I'm going to stay there. And I'm not doing anything else. And I will find those people who want it.

Philip Pape 39:45

Yeah, and I totally grew. And I would say it doesn't take long to figure that out. If you're working with clients because I went through the same thing as a nutrition coach was day one had no idea right? So you work with five people and all of a sudden you're already realizing the things that you do. don't want to deal with and it teaches you a lot in the moment. And the key, though, like you said, is to actually say no, because that's not going to just help you, it's gonna help the client, because you're not gonna give them what they want. So why would you? Why would you sign up with them? Great advice just for business in general, right? For anybody trying to find a client? Yeah,

Wil Del Pizzo 40:17

it's just in that's kind of the burden of the industry that we're in, especially if you're in the personal training business, if you're not, you know, if you're doing a lot of one on one stuff, that's, that's your bread and butter, that's tough, because, you know, you're there, you're working your clients, or you're spending all your time trying to get the clients that left to try to fill those spots. It's that feast or famine, you know what I mean? So when you're in a famine, you're just like, I'll take anything that I can get, you know, I just, I need to pay some bills, I gotta put gas in the car and all that other stuff. And that's kind of the cycle that a lot of people get into, on mobile train, who was go to the park? Let's I'll do whatever I have to do, you know? So it's kind of wonder like, who are you? What do you do and stay in that lane and then build from that, it might be a slower process, and it might hurt a little bit. But in the long run, it's going to be so much better? I'd rather have somebody be like, Yo, this person didn't take me he's a jerk as opposed. Like, he took 1000s of dollars from me and didn't get any results.

Philip Pape 41:20

Yeah, but I take all the time. Exactly. That's a

Wil Del Pizzo 41:23

pick one, I'll pick being a jerk for not taking you.

Philip Pape 41:26

You know, that's integrity, some technique at a certain point,

Wil Del Pizzo 41:30

yeah, you know, and once again, I've been wrong, I've been like, I don't know, if this is gonna work out, you go have my bed. More times in Ireland, I know, I shouldn't have done this, you know, I don't do it very much anymore. But in the beginning, you just take what you can get. And so find who you are, stay in your lane, and then find the people to fill in into those little places that you're looking.

Philip Pape 41:52

Right. And I can think of a two is there's non negotiables, like, identify the things you absolutely will never, ever, ever want to deal with. And right there. That's an easy filter. And then, and then maybe you have the list of things that are like lukewarm. You know, like if there's one or two of these lukewarm things that pop up, but everything else is green. That's fine, right? Yes, you can kind of make that list for yourself. Yeah,

Wil Del Pizzo 42:13

it depends on the individual. I hope people have a high tolerance and who would just take the people that nobody wants, and they just see like, I'll take them all, like you are just patients have a saint, you're asking, yeah, they're happy and you're happy, fine, that's fine. But you want to set people up for success, because they're coming to you for results. We're in the result business, this is the result that outcomes, we are in the result business, this is not a lot of those results are scalable results, as if Oh, I weigh less, you know. So if that's you want to be a weight loss person, then be that weight loss person, you know, so you just got to find who you are, and then find the people who want to be in that spot?

Philip Pape 42:59

For sure. That's great advice. Well, I do I want to ask one more question that I like to ask of all guests. And that is what one question Did you wish I had asked? And what's your answer? Can you get

Wil Del Pizzo 43:10

some kettlebells? Ah, no,

Philip Pape 43:14

you sell them right now.

Wil Del Pizzo 43:17

To set myself up. You know, what's the biggest struggle that sometimes we have as trainers, you know, or owning a business? What's the biggest struggle sometimes of owning the business? And how do you navigate those waters? It's it's social media as a big a big thing now until you know, because you get lost you get lost out there you because there's so many, if I have to see another glute shot, I swear, I'm gonna lose my mind the outro

Philip Pape 43:52

the algorithm as soon as you say you like anything fitness related, that's all you see.

Wil Del Pizzo 43:55

Seriously, you like one professional bodybuilding woman, then all of a sudden you see one video and then all of a sudden, like, Why do I have this trophy? This is driving me crazy.

Philip Pape 44:07

My wife's like, what are you looking at over there? I'm like, Look, I just want to show you what I'm like, I'm going to be totally honest. Like, you know, we communicate as this is what happens when I look at just one like guy talking about his strength training program, they show a bunch of women with Bucha

Wil Del Pizzo 44:21

deck algorithm if I have to see another one of those, I'm gonna lose my Cotton Pickin mind. It's ridiculous. But you know, it's, um, you know, only a business's is out here in California has been bit of a challenge over the last couple of years, especially the gym. In Los Angeles, it's combative. To say the least, with with some of the rules and the regulations that we got going on over here.

Philip Pape 44:47

But oh, you mean the government getting up in your stuff? Right. So you're saying

Wil Del Pizzo 44:52

I'm not saying anything, sir. I live in Connecticut.

Philip Pape 44:56

Say things that you wouldn't know I lived here so yeah. My shoulder

Wil Del Pizzo 45:04

this this day in between the screws on that one. But yeah, it's, it's a, it's a challenge out here you kind of kind of have to navigate those waters and and, and you got to be in it, you got to you got to enjoy it, you got to enjoy the business, you gotta join all the little craziness of it. Because it's it can be, you know, like I said earlier, it's it can be feast or famine, it really can be feast or famine, it can be really, really scary time sometimes really, really scary times. And so how do you you know, how do you say mentally tough through it? And how do you stay focused on it? And how do you organize yourself? And how do you get your own training in because I'm in this industry? Because I like to lift heavy weights,

Philip Pape 45:45

right? You know, I helped other people do it, which is great.

Wil Del Pizzo 45:50

I enjoy making people lift heavy weights.

Philip Pape 45:51

Yes, that's more people need to do that everyone listening, you know, hopefully they're inspired to do that. And if they're in your area, they need to look you up. So speaking of that, where can listeners learn more about you and your work?

Wil Del Pizzo 46:05

So you can go to our website at built strong strength.com. All one word has all our information there. It's got all our contact information. We do have downloadable programs. So we do have a kettlebell, specifically a kettlebell program, a big three program. We're just bases around the big three. And we have a mass strength and power program, which is a four month programming of Let's get after it. And let's bend some iron and let's get crazy. So we do have those programs available for you. And then if you're in the Los Angeles, specifically Chatsworth area, you can come by and say hi to us, and we offer a week free and all the other stuff newsletters, so you can sign up for all that stuff on our website, build strong strength.com

Philip Pape 46:48

There you go build strong strength.com. I'll put that in the show notes. People go and find ton of great resources, reach out to you. And I know they learned a ton from watching this. So again, I want to appreciate you for coming on the show. Well,

Wil Del Pizzo 46:59

thanks for having me. I had a great time. Thanks for Thanks for having me on your show. It's a good time. Yeah,

Philip Pape 47:04

awesome. If you've been inspired by today's interview, and are ready to take action and build momentum on your health and fitness journey, just schedule a free 30 minute nutrition momentum call with me using the link in my show notes. I promise not to sell or pitch you on anything, but I will help you gain some perspective and guidance so we can get you on the right track toward looking and feeling your best

Philip Pape 4/25/23 Philip Pape 4/25/23

Ep 64: Testosterone, Hormone Therapy, and Peptides for Health and Longevity with Dr. Rand McClain

Today’s episode is all about hormones, peptides, and innovative treatments with my special guest, Dr. Rand McClain. Dr. Rand reveals the importance of testosterone, its effects on your body, and how to manage them. We also examine menopause vs. MANopause, the diagnosis and treatment of hormonal deficiencies, and questions from our community. Finally, we delve into the science of peptides!

From being the youngest senior account manager in Deloitte’s history, to his stint as a professional kickboxer in Argentina, to being accepted to medical school at age 37 after being repeatedly told it was impossible, Dr. Rand has never been a fan of the “status quo”.

Dr. Rand’s patients (many of which are A-List celebrities and world-class athletes) come to his practice in search of the innovative treatments he specializes in. From the latest in stem cell and hormone therapies, to IV drips that reduce trauma and anxiety, to human performance health programs and futuristic longevity treatments, Dr. Rand believes that your past health mistakes don’t define your future.
__________
Book a FREE 30-minute call with Philip here.
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Today you’ll learn all about:

[2:12] Proving doubters wrong to attend med school in your late 30s
[6:42] Unveiling the message behind the book Cheating Death
[8:24] Emotional support in hormone-related challenges
[12:16] Dr. Rand's health and fitness routine
[15:40] Importance of testosterone and signs of low levels
[17:52] Comparing menopause and MANopause
[19:44] The decline or the early onset of the decline of hormones
[21:35] Effects of testosterone on fitness goals
[26:00] Diagnosis and treatment of hormonal deficiencies and common misconceptions about HRT
[29:20] Peptides versus steroids, hormones, and other drugs
[34:36] Hormone creams and their benefits for receptors
[37:42] Recommended supplement combinations
[42:30] Natural methods for hormone control
[46:50] Explaining peptides and their roles in the body
[50:50] Practical use of peptides in treatment
[55:46] Genetic testing in hormone therapy
[59:02] Exciting future advancements in medicine
[1:05:55] How to connect with Dr. Rand

Episode resources:

👩‍💻 Schedule your FREE 30-minute Nutrition Momentum Call with Philip here.

🫙 Get high-quality 1st Phorm supplements here

💪 Want to upgrade and optimize your body? Learn about 1-on-1 coaching here

👉 Want to send Philip a message or question about lifting or nutrition?

IG: @witsandweights
Email: philip@witsandweights.com

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Transcript

Dr. Rand McClain 00:00

There's at least a correlation between low testosterone and things like coronary artery disease. Type Two Diabetes, colon cancer in men prostate cancer, osteoporosis, so there's reason to consider replacing some or most even all these hormones.

Philip Pape 00:21

Dr. Rand McClain 02:39

Well, there are pluses and minuses as there usually are right in situations like this.

Dr. Rand McClain 02:45

Focusing on the positive, I think I had a very different I know I had a very different perspective going through it 37 First of all, I wanted to do it. I didn't do it because My great grandpa the way down to my PA did it. And I didn't do it because I thought there was lots of money in it. Because there isn't. I didn't do it because of anything. But I really had a passion for it. And I actually the truth of it. As I was traveling across country, I found out I was gonna be a dad. And I said, you know, I gotta settle into something for good here and not just bop around. This is actually my ninth career if you want to just talk about careers, not other odd jobs. So that helped out a lot and then being 37 years old. And eventually, you know, by the time I got to see patients a little bit older, I had been around the block a few times myself with injuries and illnesses and whatnot. And that helps, I believe, tease out some of the things where you Okay, that's great, but I'm never going to really like

Dr. Rand McClain 03:44

it reminds me of a joke. You know, what do they call the doctor with the lowest passing score on the entrance exam?

Philip Pape 03:52

Documents? I don't touch that one. What is it is still a doctor doctor,

Dr. Rand McClain 03:56

like me last time I go through this. It helped me pare down the things that weren't so important. I knew I was never going to be a dermatologist. I had no interest in dermatology. And so I remember getting mad when I scored. This can sound like I'm bragging but it really was not I got a 95 on the exam. And I remember thinking Gosh, darn, I screwed up because I over studied, you know. So the point being that the optimistic side of this is when you get down the road like that you learn to prioritize and adopt perspectives differently. You know, who cares, we get an A or B and dermatology if you never want to be a dermatologist, you know, it allowed me to focus on the things I really enjoy. And I knew I wanted to pursue and I think that was an advantage also. We all deal differently with people when we're 20 than when we're 30 and 40 and whatnot. Of that a lot just going through like internship, you know, dealing with patients definitely and having been a patient that gives you a leg up now. The native part of all that is 37 You're supposed to be doing pretty well financially. And, you know, you should have a lot of other things going on, I ended up going through this as a single dad at one point. I spent the nights in my van, you know, up at school and whatnot. And that part of it was not so fun, although again, you know, being a little bit older, it's gonna sound trite maybe, but it is absolutely true. I can remember, I finally did, I was able to afford a place which is actually just a couple blocks down from where I am in my office now. They used to be Marine Corps officers, barracks, just one room deals. And I remember sitting out there and an afternoon and you know, having a hibachi grill, you know, cheapo things, even in the CVS now. And it was cooking up some hot dogs and some baked beans. And a lot of people will work hard roughing it high. And I were thinking, you know, I'm really not, I'm in California, the sun's out, and I like hot dogs and bait. This isn't so bad. And of course, you know, the take home as we get this gonna sound, whatever corny, but you know, following your dream that makes a lot of other things not so bad. And that's what I was doing. So, yeah, I had some good experiences, and some not so good. But it all worked out.

Philip Pape 06:13

Yeah, you know, that really resonates with me with the later in life that people asked me, for example, as a nutrition coach, how could I be a good client when I didn't start this? Or a good coach? And I didn't start this in my 20s. I said, Well, you know, I've dealt with so many people, both as a father and as manager in the engineering world that those skills translate, and you've got this unique perspective that no other person in med school with you at the time had, that I'm sure translates to this day as you work with your patients. At nine careers well, so you talked about the surgeries that you had, or the personal experience you had gone through. And I think you you talked about that in your book as well and cheating death, if I could just quote it real quick, because I did get an early copy was able to peruse that you said you're quote, alive and well, both because of great doctors and surgeons, and because you've been open to a wide range of treatments. And I think your message about healthspan is partly about having options, maybe options beyond what people think are there, right. And I've seen people fail my clients, I've seen people fail my very close family members time and again over the years, because there's this myopic view, I feel that most traditional doctors have, and they have to go out and find other treatments, alternative therapies, hormone treatments, specialist coaches, et cetera. What are your thoughts on all of that?

Dr. Rand McClain 07:26

Well, I think the point I'm trying to make in the book, or what he attends to the book, anyway, is to get the word out that there are other avenues. And what most people think, even if you're pretty much in touch with medicine, if you're not a doctor, or you're not reading the the journals every day, you're gonna get behind. And even doctors get behind because we are very specialized in what we practice, typically. And that's just a matter of, we have so much information that we have to gather and learn. And then we have to be proficient in that area. We always talk about, you know, the gatekeepers of primary care providers being the ones that sort of collect all this together, I can't think of a better way to do it. You can try and be, well, you should always be your best health advocate. But unless you've been trained in medicine, trying to do that over, someone has already been trained in medicine, to play that same role is going to be harder to do. That mean, you can't do it. But

Philip Pape 08:26

just to clarify, you're talking about the scenario where you go to the doctor, and they kind of have that holier than now era about them. And you are the kind of the dumb person doing the internet research. And I'm just I'm very much simplifying, but these are real people's kind of thoughts about this subject. And you know, even when I talk to my family about is that that's kind of where you're going with this.

Dr. Rand McClain 08:46

Well, I you know, I can make a joke either you being redundant when you say, you know, God like and Dr. Ish, I mean, that's the old school way, the very paternalistic way that, but it's still pervasive, obviously, because we speak a different language. Although that's changing man. One of the things is a good offshoot of the biohacking. Although, you know, there's a lot of negative consequences. We've seen certainly a lot of possibilities, where you can go wrong, but people are getting interested in doing a lot of learning on their own. And, again, that comes with pros and cons. Dr. Google was not always your best source, but it's changing the environment. So patients are a lot better educated, they have a lot more information. So it makes it easier for a patient to push a doctor who might be gaslighting them, or, you know, playing that, that God thing, because you can't make chokers. But, ya know, that's the point I'm trying to make. And really, the whole idea of the book, again, is to let patients without sounding like I'm a jerk. Doctors also know it because I don't I don't think I'm sounding like a jerk when I because I preface it by saying, you know, our profession is such that we're specialized. Why would an expert in skin cancers, let's say know anything of out. I don't know, when he's to reduce blood sugar rice we learned in internship. So I don't mean it that way that might have sounded. But you know, the idea is to get the word out. So kind of everybody can be the gatekeeper and least have a little bit of knowledge about Oh, when I see this, I'd like to focus on this necessarily only. That is my job. That's my specialty. But oh, by the way, you might want to see a rheumatologist about this or whatever. And also, the other point that I think you're asking me to dress is, because it's changing so fast, I make the point in the book that I missed out on a lot of treatments, because I figured, oh, you know, to use the spines example, I mean, they're gonna have to get this fused, or I'm going to put the equivalent of a door hinge in there, and that's not going to work for me. So I'm just gonna cut it out for as long as I can. 33 years later, they got so bad that, you know, the guy pretty much told me Well, first of all, the MRI, doctor, radiologist chased me out in the parking lot, said, Hey, man, do you realize what's going on here? And then the surgeon said, basically, I should I need to do this yesterday. So I don't want people to get to that point. Because then you you've limited your options as I did mine. And so if I can get the word out that, hey, we have this option, this option, this option? And you mentioned futuristic treatments. Yeah, they sound futuristic to most of us, but they're here

Philip Pape 11:18

to catch up. Yeah,

Dr. Rand McClain 11:21

what I want to get across, so manage our health and do it and, you know, with all the options we have possible,

Philip Pape 11:27

right? Yeah. And part of what you said there was, you know, not every doctor is not every doctor that comes from the same place. And there are definitely some better than others that are some that stay with stay up with the research versus others. I used to have a primary care doctor years ago, and I know people like to, you know, don't talk down about primary care physicians who, who taught and studied and he was always opened every time I brought something up. Oh, you know, let's explore that together. And I love the doctor like that. And what was the other thing you mentioned there that I'm kind of losing track of here. The Oh, the how things change over time, right, like laparoscopic surgeries and things like that. I had two surgeries two months apart. A couple of years ago, one for micro diskectomy and one for an appendectomy. Both laparoscopic I can't imagine having done both of those surgeries. I don't know 3040 years ago at all let alone two months apart. I wanted to just last personal question that we can get into maybe the listener wants to hear all about the hormone stuff. What is your personal daily routine look like when it comes to your lifting your nutrition your wellness?

Dr. Rand McClain 12:28

Well, I'm what they call it morning Lark right in terms of prototype. So if I don't get it done early, you didn't get it done typically. So I start today with breakfast. Mine is pretty much bacon eggs and toast. If it's a special occasion, my wife will make pancakes instead of toast. usually put a little almond butter or something on there. But then I get into my workout which will be either weights. I'm getting ready for my next surgeries. I've got to get to New shoulders. And I mean that people say What do you mean, you're training for your surgery? Yes, I'm getting in shape for surgery because you only come out of surgery in the same fitness or less right by a day because you're training data then you go in. So I've been hitting the weights a little bit more, but I love bike riding. I still love I don't like it in the ring anymore because of my spine. But I love you know, training as though I were a boxer. So I hit the heavy bag, I get my morning workout in. And that's usually anywhere from as little as an hour from doing below to max stuff or, you know, can be as long as three hours. And I post all my workouts on Garmin Connect so that I can share that with really anybody and you know, in a way we're all in this together, why not keep it ourselves, then all hell see patients on certain days, I'll have my lunch. Really after that it gets boring. I mean, for most of the listeners, actually they might be bored with the first part. But after that, I feel like when I once I get the workout in, which I believe and I think I hope I make this point the book exercise is what I call the great equalizer. I've done them not the most I can but one of the best things if not the best thing I can from my healthspan and gotten that out of the way and from there it's gravy. So and then I look at you know, I see patients I got a few other businesses that are related to medicine I work on certain days and then I'm out usually before I make it upstairs, you know. And much to my wife's chagrin because she likes watching shows and stuff and she's actually a night owl not that you have to hear any of this stuff but

Philip Pape 14:29

these are all fair points because people relate to like routine

Dr. Rand McClain 14:35

but you know I say it's boring I love it if I didn't get my workouts and some good food and good company and that sort of thing and then get my job done which I'm blessed because I get to see patients and I love what I do. I don't I know I I don't see sick people. So that makes my job a lot easier. I have already found I take it too much to heart when I see somebody really really ill and there's no limits as to what you can do when someone's taking 26 meds and got, you know, three or four comorbidities? I'm just not cut out for that. But yeah, and, you know, we live here and in Southern Cal can't complain except for the taxes.

Philip Pape 15:10

Right? Oh, I'm in Connecticut so I can complain about the weather and the taxes. Not here. All right. All right, cool. You know, it's good for people to know this. I mean, you do lift and you you stay active and eat eggs and bacon and all that great stuff. And like you said, like, you alluded to fitness and movement exercise is 8080 90% of the equation. And if you're not doing that, first, maybe these other other treatments are the next step after you get those things dialed in. So speaking of some of these treatments, let's let's start big picture. Testosterone, something men and women are interested in. Why is it important? Let's just Let's just start there. Big picture, why is important? And then what are the signs of low testosterone?

Dr. Rand McClain 15:55

Well, I always joke, and it dates me with those who are of similar generation that, you know, it almost sounds like we're trying to make it out like that Saturn lives kits for shimmer. It's a floor wax, no, it's a desert topping. But in some senses, it really is that important testosterone anyway for males and females, because it's responsible for so many things that leverages your energy, your sense of well being your libido, your your body composition. And, you know, tell me there's not at least one of those that everyone's interested in, right, and I named a few of them. So that starts to diminish the production of it in our bodies, somewhere around age 35. Whether it's referred to as menopause or andropause, that's when it happens in men and ditto for for females. You know, perimenopause, actually, the way we put her Perry enterprise, and it's noticeable. Some people do better with it than others. We've all met the guy or the gal that is bouncing off the walls with energy, right? And that's not their problem, no matter what happens, they can be 90 and have low testosterone, their bounce off walls, but that's personality based. But the dead giveaway that he has a energy libido sense of well, being that good mood that's driven by personality, certainly a body composition. And you said Well, yeah, that's also you know, genetically based, okay, given that too, but that's where people who otherwise are doing well come in and see anything, okay. I'm doing everything. And it's a lot of times it's the professional athletes, right? They're like, they're the last ones because they know the tricks. They go, Okay, well, I pulled this out of my ad, I pulled this out of Max, I know,

Philip Pape 17:34

the training the nutrition, everything. Yeah, they keep tweaking

Dr. Rand McClain 17:37

and keep tweaking and then finally, okay, I'm done with this, man, you gotta help me, I pulled everything out. And it's just too much work, or it's, I'm not getting there anymore. And so I see tend to see them later in life than, say, the the so called average person. But yeah, testosterone is important for for all the above. And then you know, for females only, although having too high or too low estrogen affects males too, but more directly because of the body parts. And the way women are designed to use those body parts. estrogen deficiency can affect women, pretty significantly, can cause a deficiency cause anxiety and palpitations, the classic night sweats and hot flashes, and eventually, vaginal dryness. So you know, there's a lot of reasons to look at hormones, the less sexy ones DHEA, progesterone pregnenolone, those are important too. And they all start to drop off is this cascade of hormones that starts with cholesterol. They're called the steroid hormones for the word cholesteryl. And they're all steroids, not anabolic steroids, which is where the confusion comes in. I think. By the way, it includes vitamin D people, I think, are realizing that more and more again, the biohackers and people that are paying attention. We named it in the late 1800s, I believe. And we thought it was a vitamin. No, it says steroids. But these are all important, and why not replenish them, replace them. If we can, we cannot get the body at a certain point anyway, to make them again on their own. So fortunately, we have the ability to replace them. And it's been a game changer. You know, death and taxes and deficiency of hormones is eventual we can we can fix at least one of those two of those we were working on at least in terms of state taxes. Right. And I think we talked about that on the show. But yeah, it's definitely something that is a game changer. And that's why I think I have a great job because I see a lot of happy faces.

Philip Pape 19:42

Yeah, I imagine. And what I've always wondered, though, is like, first of all, has it has any Has anything changed in the last 50 to 100 years that causes the decline in some of these hormones to occur more frequently or earlier? That's the first question and or is this just a natural state because we live such long lives, and it happens to just about everybody. In other words, there's nothing wrong with you, per se as this is just going to happen.

Dr. Rand McClain 20:06

It's both great question because, yeah, typically it happens to all of us like I was applying with the other debt taxes. And lo one day when did you know if you live long enough, you got to notice it correct. 300 years ago, life expectancy was depending upon what, you know, estimate you read 30 to 35 years old, on average, what do you worry about, you know, adding, you know, moving melanoma is probably not going to be unless either you can stay out in the sun as much as you want, you're not going to get wrinkles or malignant melanoma. So they were enjoying it, there was no sunscreen back then they weren't worried about it. But yeah, we're living longer. So we're going to experience those things now. But also, the way we live just going back not 1000s years, just again, that 300 year span there. You know, three years ago, were herding sheep. Every once in a while a wolf might come in, you know, and you got to get your dander up, so to speak, or an opposing tribe, which is more of an issue, maybe. But you didn't have the chronic stress, you didn't have the necessity of cortisol manufacture, and it flowed around your bloodstream, which hammers you. And that affects pretty much most chronic cortisol release pretty much is a detriment to everything we got going for us. And that is a cause of earlier rather than normal or later, whatever you want to call it. hormone deficiency.

Philip Pape 21:25

Yeah, I'm glad. I'm glad you mentioned that. Because covering the gamut between the reproductive hormones, and then cortisol, and I think you mentioned thyroid, they're also critical. So what what would you say to the statement, you know, if you can get your diet, nutrition and lifestyle diet dialed in, you probably won't need hormone replacement. Is that is that a false statement? For most people?

Dr. Rand McClain 21:46

Depends on how long you live, you live long enough, you're probably going to be better off on hormone replacement for two reasons. One, even if you're not suffering, okay, meaning, okay? The testosterone drops, and she has less libido, but she's also to the worse, let's say, I've never met someone she wants to stay with. Who cares? You know, no, one's bugging her. She doesn't have the libido because the level below and in every other area, she's fine, you could argue, okay, because we treat people and not numbers, don't worry about it, then she could live a full life and but we've connected more dots than that. And we can say even if you're doing well, meaning you're not complaining and you're happy with it, there's at least a correlation between low testosterone and things like coronary artery disease, type two diabetes, colon cancer in men, prostate cancer, osteoporosis. So there's reason to consider replacing some or most even all these hormones. And I'm talking about the steroid hormones. Now, you mentioned thyroid, that's a whole nother as a protein based tournaments. Okay. But even so, the idea that you treat people, not numbers, there's some times where you might want to treat it just because it's low, because it's going to be better for your health span. Anyway, it tees you up for a longer, healthier life, with emphasis on the healthier part, rather than being short, caught by surprise, or caught too late. Okay. Yeah,

Philip Pape 23:24

I think it's a good way to look at it. And I don't know if this is an apt analogy, but that's kind of how I feel about strength, and building muscles that, you know, you could be 30 and feel like you're, you're fine and capable. But if you don't build that muscle mass as a matter, of course, it's gonna catch up to you, you're gonna get weaker, more frail, and then it's gonna lead to all sorts of health issues as well. I mean, I think there's, there's multiple things in life like that in the area of wellness that the more proactive you can be, which is harder when you're not dealing with an issue or when the industry is telling you Well, you've there's nothing wrong, so don't worry about it, go to a doctor, you need something fixed, right when something's gone wrong. So I think that's a good message. Doctor rent

Dr. Rand McClain 24:03

was a couple of things you did there that statement. One is that, again, if you're muddling through with less and less muscle mass, and implied in there is that you're going to have less and less strength to then okay, that's fine, if that's what you feel, but you're definitely not the same as you were when you were 30 and 60. And just because you're saying, Well, I'm okay with it doesn't mean it's okay. In the sense of, you know, measuring your physiology, you know, apples and apples. And so, you know, you're definitely, for example, more likely to suffer from osteoporosis or there's a huge correlation between muscle strength, muscle mass, and of course, VO two max. So there's no debate about that anymore. So you're definitely cutting yourself off at the ankles at least or the knees. You know, if you don't State stick with it and you do have to stick with it. That's the point. There is sort of a cat by the tail there that's necessary. Just like we have to eat and breathe and a lot of us. And then there's another thing you were starting to harp on there that, you know, I like to hopefully make people laugh, but I'm serious when I say it, you know, normal. Okay, yeah, I feel like, you know, this is the way my father, my mother lived, whatever, 60 or 80. It's normal, and I accept these things. Okay, well, that's your prerogative. Okay. I'm a registered libertarian. I wouldn't argue with you in that sense. But it's normal to get sick and die one day. So who cares about pursuing normal? For the sake of normal anyway?

Philip Pape 25:39

Yeah. Yeah, it seems like it seems like the best things in life are both hard to achieve, and also make you an outlier. And that's those are the things we want to pursue. I don't know if you agree with that statement. But and once you once you put in that effort upfront, it actually makes everything else easier down the road, whether it's treating your hormones, you know, getting stronger, or whatever else. So speaking of the diagnosis and treatment, I'm actually curious on the diagnosis part, because now that we've the context is, you may not have any issues, right? You may not even have symptoms, but it's still good to treat it. How do you diagnose it from that in that context, and then we can get into treatment as well?

Dr. Rand McClain 26:17

Well, great, great question, because yeah, takes it a step further. So So you have a patient, let's say who's a sick a 55 year old female. And I pick that because with osteoporosis, a female's just statistically more likely to have osteoporosis than a male. Okay. She's happy as Clint has no complaints, except she's got osteoporosis. Well, you can draw ABS you can see Oh, my goodness, she's not only low in testosterone, but she's also low in estrogen. Even if she didn't have any complaints about estrogen deficiency. A lot of females sort of dodged the menopause bullet to a large degree, but she's also diagnosed with osteopenia or worse osteoporosis. You can take some Fosamax even add a bunch of calcium to your diet, and therefore suffer from constipation, I would argue, add vitamin D if you're not on it already, and see if that helps. Of course, weight bearing exercises, always very important to stave that off, but I've seen many time where you've got someone who's active, she's 55 year old female, and, you know, unless she wants to pick up Olympic lifting or powerlifting, she's doing plenty of weight bearing exercise, but she's still suffering from this well, you can add estrogen and or testosterone and help with that diagnosis. Now, again, there's not a direct correlation between symptom and treatment in terms of what's classic, but a lot of times it is a lack in the sex hormones, the steroid hormones, that leads to or certainly contributes to osteopenia or osteoporosis. Does that make sense? It does. Yeah,

Philip Pape 27:55

yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And even worse, is when someone does have symptoms, and then and then the kind of conventional medicine says that there are no options that can be very frustrating for people as well.

Dr. Rand McClain 28:09

And that's really why motivated me because I am sick of hearing that, of course, personally. But I see it in patients that are told something from another physician. And come on, you know, if you're passionate about what you do, whether you're a doctor or a trainer or someone where you're trying to help somebody with with their health, and you hear something from another practitioner, that's just completely completely bogus. It kind of chaps your rear end, and then I mean, be honest. And so you know, I Okay, I gotta get this out there to to counter that, at least, if not straighten it out. So yeah, you know, there's somebody see all the time. And it's really discouraging, obviously, to the patient, but as a physician to me, too, because you see someone who really, really wants to do something, wants to get better, and they're getting advice. That's just again, completely bogus. It's very frustrating for a lot of parties, right?

Philip Pape 29:08

Yeah, and even just as a human being just in any pursuit, someone who just has that either apathy or dismissiveness, if you will, and I'm sure there's a lot of factors behind it. But we don't have to get into that part. Let's get into the solving problems for people, which is what you do. And we talked about being treated for hormones could be a good thing to pursue, regardless of maybe all the symptoms. How do you treat those hormonal deficiencies, and I want to get into, of course by bioidentical hormone replacement therapy, traditional therapy kind of comparing those and then common myths, misconceptions, one of which, of course, is oh, it's going to cause cancer. We know that people still think that's I want to understand your perspective.

Dr. Rand McClain 29:45

Well, well, that's a broad question.

Philip Pape 29:50

compound question.

Dr. Rand McClain 29:52

Fair enough. It depends upon the hormone of course, that we're talking about this deficient or in some cases, excess And we deal with them all differently. I alluded earlier to the fact that there's a difference between I call fat based or cholesterol based hormones and protein or peptide based hormones. You know, you got the thyroid growth hormone, other peptides, insulin. Those are the protein based or peptide hormones. And then you've got the steroid hormones we already mentioned. And they work differently, that's for certain. And testosterone, I will say is unique in that, unlike, say, thyroid, where you're looking for a sweet spot, you don't want it to be too high or too low with testosterone, more or less, you're looking for a minimum threshold at which you want to remain or stay above. You don't want to go miles above that, or anything like that. But the emphasis is on don't drop below that because you will become subtherapeutic. Okay. And there are some linearity once you become therapeutic, until you go to there's such a thing as too high there is. But but just again, there's differences in the way you treat hormones, depending upon which ones we're talking about.

Philip Pape 31:08

Let's say DHEA, right, for example, just to throw it out of the hat I've seen, you know, over the counter stuff is, you know, sold in five milligrams, 30 milligrams. So there's obviously a dosing difference. How do you How would you help somebody? Treat DHEA?

Dr. Rand McClain 31:21

That's a great question. Let's use DHEA. One, so there's an old rule of thumb that for each year, on the planet, you use one milligram of DHA. I don't know where that comes from. But the problem was sillies hormones and DHA is a great examples. You've got this hormone that you want to do certain things. And by the way, it has certain other effects because of its ability, the body's ability to interconvert depending upon what's necessary. Okay, what

Philip Pape 31:52

testosterone in this case, yeah, what what's as testosterone in that cascade?

Dr. Rand McClain 31:57

Yeah, yeah, testosterone is further down. But there's kind of like, it's like a little triangle circle, whatever you call it, you know, work and go down the corticosteroid Riah route. Order can go down what we call the sex hormone route, because it includes testosterone and estrogen. And there's a lot of other androgens that we don't talk about that are, you know, intermediates, but also have effects in and of themselves, that can be converted from DHEA. So I always use the Quick example, you know, do you want to go from LA to San Francisco via New York? Or do you want to take the straight shot, but in the old days, as they say, the old days, a lot of times, particularly with women who were suffering from lack of energy will be there and what a doctor would prescribe progesterone in the hopes that it would convert to the necessary tests from and or estrogen if needed. And this is really we're talking about mainly OBGYN is because they were used to using progesterone and estrogen to treat the Oregon the uterus. Okay, so they're already comfortable with that as Oh, okay. Well, we'll treat it with pedestrian. I'm going way off in a tangent, sorry. But back to DHEA. Yeah. And, you know, this, this delves into why we're classifying DHEA as an over the counter supplement, but testosterone not got me. Because you can do a lot of things the wrong way with DHEA. For example, as you point out, it can give birth to a lot of different things down the line, testosterone being one, but also estrogen, which may not be appropriate for a male. And so you kind of roll the dice there with each individual, because they may convert it differently than another individual apropos to DHEA. I like to supplement with one of the three metabolites, seven keto DHEA, which isn't normally assay. But that will not typically convert to a hormone you're not looking to use. So you can if you really want DHEA in the system, plugin with seven keto rather than DHEA, which can either remain in the serum or convert to DHEA sulfate. But those can run into trouble that you don't know by converting things you don't necessarily want. giving away too much information. No, no, no, I

Philip Pape 34:13

can nerd out on this stuff for hours. And I think maybe a lot of the listeners to do that's the cool thing about podcasts, right was we can't get into the stuff. But that's something I learned right there is, you know, like you said, there's downstream effects. So to be more targeted, right and work with people who understand this stuff like you and, and others like you that that can help you, you know, target the treatment. So you mentioned creams, right like estrogen, progesterone, I mean, there's testosterone creams, there's all those. I actually have a question from one of our community members, Christine, why she was wondering if you should stop all the creams once a month to help the receptors I guess help the receptors recover and avoid getting over sensitized or desensitized?

Dr. Rand McClain 34:53

Yeah, that's a great question. And I hear that when often I don't know where that came from. But the idea that You're going to desensitize the receptors, I think maybe stems from the idea that you can actually down regulate some of the receptors. And it's really more of a result of reversing an upregulation. So when you're shorting hormones is The fascinating part of the body, right? Your body's not making enough keys for the locks says, We're gonna make more locks for the same keys. Brilliant, right? And then all of a sudden, you use replacement therapy, you got plenty of keys, advice, okay, whoa, we don't need this much. And so downregulate some of those locks the receptors in this case, and, you know, there's some downregulation, we understand when you overdo it, if your normal, so to speak, like someone who's 25 years old, and decides he wants to cheat the system, whether it be bodybuilding or whatever. There can be some downregulation there, but for someone who's using testosterone replacement therapy, the key being it's to replace what's no longer being produced, right, naturally, then, yeah, the idea of coming off to upregulate, the receptors doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me, because while you may get some benefit in terms of the way you feel, because Oh, wow, you've upregulated them, because you're short for a while, again, it's temporary. And you're robbing Peter to pay Paul right? Here that?

Philip Pape 36:27

No, that's good. That's good. To clarify, it actually sounds a lot like the same, that same kind of downregulation that occurs during metabolic adaptation when you're dieting where the idea is that you're damaging your metabolism, which is not true, because as soon as you go back and feed yourself, it recovers. So the body's resilient is what you're saying. It's good for people to know this and not get scared off from some of these maybe misconceptions. Okay, so let's, because well, I know we got started a little late. But let's let's I want to talk about peptides. Right? Because those

Dr. Rand McClain 36:57

are, yeah, those are the that's coming from the audience, right? Your people, they have the sort of, I guess we call it one offs that, you know, we may not think about it, because it's kind of not mainstream. But yeah, that's a common question, actually. And so just the bottom line it no do not go on and off. It's not

Philip Pape 37:18

while you need it. And there you go. Hey, this is Philip. And I hope you're enjoying this episode of Wits, & Weights. If you're finding value in the content, and want to stay up to date with all our latest episodes, be sure to hit the Follow button on your favorite podcast platform. By following you'll get notified whenever a new episode comes out. And you won't miss out on knowledge and strategies to level up your health and fitness. All right, let's get back to the episode. Actually, there was another question from another, a different Christina. She's asking if there's a there's a combination of supplementation with adaptogens vitamins or herbs, you would recommend in any scenario, kind of a high level question. I know

Dr. Rand McClain 37:58

what if I'm reading or I'm hearing that right? She's referring to what I refer to in Chinese medicine terms as what would be called a superior herb. One that's not used to treat a condition but as something you could use all the time, because just makes you better. And saying is is one that people will suddenly can take, you know, unless you get sick, but generally speaking, it's good for you, right? Yeah, is there one out there? I'm not big on formulations, even though Chinese medicines loaded with them. You have some of those ancient formulations and I'm, I'm too far removed from it. Now to be able to recall some that I'd say oh, yeah, this is a brilliant one, keep keep doing it. There are some evolved. Use of Hirscher, whoo, which is generally speaking one of those that's going to only be good for you, it restores what they call kidney, again, if I recall correctly, which really kind of boils down to hormonal balance. But in terms of what she's asking, you know, I'd rather take an adaptogen, Siberian Ginseng, and combine it with whatever vitam I'm looking for, you know, I think I'm sure. And maybe

Philip Pape 39:07

I got it, which is consistent with you were saying before, it's like don't just throw everything at it go after the what you need. What about ashwagandha? I want to ask you about that. What are your thoughts on that

Dr. Rand McClain 39:17

is? Well, the question I get often is, is that going to be a substitute for testosterone replacement therapy?

Philip Pape 39:24

No, well, I'll be specific, right? Because I understand in the lifting world, it's being looked at as a performance enhancer, and then also in kind of the hormone support world for things like mood and anxiety.

Dr. Rand McClain 39:36

Very individualized. And I would call it you know, speaking Chinese medicine, which deals more subtleties. The result would be more subtle. It wouldn't be something I'd say oh, forget about it. But I think that you might find a lot of times when you're supplementing. You're replacing what's missing, and that's why like I use the example of vitamin beach. Well, if so, One back in my day was we didn't have vegans, but they were called vegetarians. Right. And so they weren't getting up each well. And they did some beach 12 Oh my goodness, they were elated. They were the you know, they were nuts about V 12. And they would go preaching about right. Well, as a carnivore, omnivore at the beach, I was like, what is all the fuss about? Right? Because I wasn't short in it. And so that's I think, where you see a lot of individual differences when people try sublet. Oh, my God, you got to try this work right for me. Okay, well, so I'm not downplaying ashwagandha at all, to go supplement, but if you need it, great, very few that are going to put you to the next level. Or, you know, taking the next level a better way to put I guess, if you're already makes sense. That makes sense.

Philip Pape 40:42

Yeah, you're already saturated with it, or whatever you want to say you have you have what you need. Like as examples, immune

Dr. Rand McClain 40:47

boosters, right? Really what's happening is you're bringing your immune system back to its regular state that you've been somehow diminishing by staying up too late or drinking too much or whatever. So so that's an classic example. So when you hear that kind of stuff, it's an immune boosting supplement. I would use some skepticism to doing that. But I think we're gonna find more and more we'll be able to, at least in the short term, tweaked some of those. By more just stimulating it better still, though, by stimulating it back to its normal, better state. rapamycin is a perfect example of something like that, where in general where we're stimulating autophagy my sense of drug I'm sorry, I just took a huge turn tack. I've heard that Yeah. rapamycin is a anti rejection drug. Okay, they use it to kidney transplants right? In higher dose and more regularly. Well, we found now that at least in the animal studies, and all looks good for humans, that if you use a smaller dose and punctuate the week, with just one time, it's enough to stimulate this process of cleaning up the mess, as it were, you know, autophagy is where we level clean up the mess that's been created, reorganize things, you know, I call it you know, wipe the spaghetti sauce off the recipe book. So you can actually read the recipe, reorganize the DNA, right? So that cell can operate properly. Well, that's really the idea here is that you're just getting the immune system to operate as best again, by sort of just a little nudge if you were very broad and very general, but but the idea is the same.

Philip Pape 42:30

Yeah, no, I love that. And me, I'm sure you can examine that in the context of vitamins and minerals and other nutrient deficiencies and all that where, again, if you need it and you take it, it is going to be kind of like a miracle that people will take start taking magnesium and their migraines go away and they sleep better and all these just because they were deficient in that one nutrient. Doesn't make it fun. Because we it it doesn't make it fun. It's just

Dr. Rand McClain 42:51

knowing about is worth a try. It's a solution. Yes, my knees. It's not gonna hurt you. I mean, really? Yeah. I might just because Maggie's was pretty. It's top three in my experience of being low. When we when we check. But you give intravenously to a woman who's in labor and you're trying to quell those contractions. Every 15 minutes, we give six grams intravenously. That's the equivalent of oral 60 grams, okay? But every 15 minutes,

Philip Pape 43:25

now, that's a huge amount versus two versus a pill, which is like a half a gram. Yeah.

Dr. Rand McClain 43:29

Right. But if you have to go on for a couple days, you might have a problem. But imagine trying to do that orally, you can't overdose on hankies.

Philip Pape 43:34

Right, right.

Dr. Rand McClain 43:38

Very, very, very loose stools, right and maybe they you know, because of that you can get dehydrated and stuff, but you get my point that these are they're not innocuous, but they're very hard to make a mistake with so it makes it easy for us to knowing that Oh, wow. That might you know, we studied I know that'd be a cure for my migraines, you know, some electrolyte imbalances there. Gosh, and what are the the other upsides because you're so sure maybe didn't fix your migraines but is going to help you know relaxes smooth muscle vasculature so you get more blood flow to the muscles help relax a little bit keep you a little looser. Nothing wrong with getting more blood flow to the muscles right only good thing so that's what's exciting to me on a very basic level with what we know now in medicine what we can do with it.

Philip Pape 44:23

For sure, yeah, and you mentioned skepticism earlier skepticism and experimentation, they all kind of go hand in hand and that's that's what we're all about hear so you're you're inspiring me to to keep keep digging in and making sure I've got all my bases covered. In fact, I think I started taking more vitamin D again, I had gotten off off track there along and I was reading through your book and reminded I should probably should up here in the Northeast during the winter.

Dr. Rand McClain 44:46

Not always had mentioned in the book. But going back to that example about you know, three years hence. If you are going to be dead typically on average by the time you're 3035 you weren't worried concerned About the sun vitamin, right, getting your vitamin D from the sun because you're going to be long gone before you had a chance to develop malignant melanoma, which can kill you. Nowadays we're living a lot longer. So that is a risk trust me because I you know, I last time I had 36 of these puppies that had to be removed, right?

Philip Pape 45:17

You got a nice tan I'm imagine it

Dr. Rand McClain 45:20

moved to California, and I didn't take care. We didn't know any better. And honestly, even when we did, I didn't do what I was supposed to do my fare. But the point is that you're going to live longer is the anticipation here, you know that we're let's be optimistic. So we can better living through science take a pill to get that same vitamin D without exposing ourselves unnecessarily to the radiation that can cause a problem. Let's do it. I'm not saying stay out of the sun. Just wear your sunscreen when you go out there. And then you get the best of both worlds.

Philip Pape 45:50

Yeah, good point. Good point. All right, let's turn to peptides. This is something I don't know as much about as I want to read in your book learning about it. So have a collaboration with someone she's opening an aesthetics studio, where they're going to offer peptides, so it's starting to learn about it. You said that 10% of pharmaceuticals are based on peptides and proteins. Creatine peptides, yeah, I didn't I wasn't even aware of that. Of course, I take that every day all anybody who lives should be taking their creatine.

Dr. Rand McClain 46:18

While it was that long with beta alanine?

Philip Pape 46:22

Yes, which is often found in pre workouts along with like L citrulline. And what's the other one betaine, I think are the big three but beta alanine, that's a reason being is because

Dr. Rand McClain 46:31

you're going to extend your time to exhaustion by three to five seconds, minimally with the creatine, and that creates an acidic environment that the Beta Alanine will bounce.

Philip Pape 46:42

Okay, well, glad I took my Alinea in the pre workout. So there we go. knew there was a reason for it. So yeah, anyway, peptides. So there's a whole bunch of them. Even in your book, you list just just a wide variety growth hormone, gonadotropin releasing peptides, there's some for libido, there's collagen, in layman's terms, give us a crash course in peptides, and then how they work in the body.

Dr. Rand McClain 47:06

So peptides, really it's a matter of semantics. Because depending upon how you talk, most agree that you know 50 Or more as a protein, fewer than 50 or fewer, I guess I should say is a peptide. But all they are you know that you got these amino acids in the certain structure. And I liken it to tinker toys, right where if you remember that theory was still around, but you have played with

Philip Pape 47:31

them in the 80s. So yeah,

Dr. Rand McClain 47:33

structure you want. And just one leg in different one extra post with a another knob at the end, we'll call it which can change the way it works dramatically or slightly depending upon the peptide and the way it works once it reaches the cytosol going inside the cell or even into the nucleus. So that's fascinating. I mean, of all the things and there are a bunch of things, I shouldn't pick one or the other. But that's one at the top of list is exciting, because think of all the different constructs you can make. With a tinker toy set. If you have enough tinker toys, right, you go on, literally, you know, infinitely almost literally. And just by tinkering with one of these, or two of them or whatever ligations it changes the way it works, we have the ability to test now if you look at that with in combination with stem cells, where we can grow organs, we grow liver, we can grow a pancreas, we don't have to do the human testing or even the animal testing, we go straight to human testing, not in vivo, but in vitro with these and just start throwing and of course any bringing AI right to okay, if this structure does this baseball, we know that all the

Philip Pape 48:46

some moreas if we

Dr. Rand McClain 48:47

make one of these, what happens and we can really advance pharmacology immensely. And I'm throwing it into pharmacology because again, yeah, a lot of drugs are based on insulin being the classic example. And with that, we not only come up with structures that can enhance the ability of insulin, we've already done it we have different ways. But you know what we want to be able to do for example, we want to have a long acting insulin Well, we have those now. Lantis versus, you know, the standard is and we can do that with all different kinds of peptides, presumably, and make life a lot easier. We can make them some we might want to make shorter acting so they're less dangerous. So that's a huge field and you know, you pick what you're trying to change. We can come up with a peptide for it. I mean, you know, you mentioned the list, we have things that treat everything from libido, right. I remember growing up, I say growing up I get I'm 60 but we had this thing the Spanish Fly Oh, we give somebody extra libido. We have it

Philip Pape 49:52

as a PT 141 PT 141. Yeah.

Dr. Rand McClain 49:55

And then we had this superb example. One leg n different Literally one, and it's a great tanning agent.

Philip Pape 50:04

Wow. Okay, this is this is fascinating stuff. Yeah.

Dr. Rand McClain 50:08

And you go on and on about, you know, for the brain several isin for anxiety and some call it a new tropic cymax, there are different peptides for just about anybody's desire that they want to change.

Philip Pape 50:22

So at the end of the day, you're saying it's just a, it's just a protein with fewer than 50, maybe 50 amino acids,

Dr. Rand McClain 50:29

it rarely is just a it's a line they draw. So it's a matter of space. But basically, yeah, they're their amino acids. It certainly has a certain structure. And just, I think the the general agreement is that if it's 50 or fewer, it's called a peptide, although there's some disagreement there. Who cares? It's it

Philip Pape 50:46

doesn't matter. Yeah, just so Okay, so then practicing from practical purposes, then what, you know, if you had someone come in, and what, when would they be a good candidate for peptides? What kind of potential issue or goal that they're trying to achieve? Maybe if they don't have symptoms yet? Going back to your previous statement? And then what would that look like? Are these you know, pills that they take injectables? How long they take them? Like, just give us some an idea? So peptides?

Dr. Rand McClain 51:15

Almost invariably, to get the best effects? Certainly, you're gonna have to inject them because the stomach acid will otherwise denature the structure very quickly. So although you know, you have studies, for example, to say, Okay, well, yeah, well, that's why you can't take college and get benefit. And yet we find that yeah, you can take as little as three grams a college and get some benefit. So the stomach doesn't completely torched it somehow, some way. Or maybe it comes back together for some reason we don't know about. But as a general rule, you have to inject these peptides to get them to work. And, you know, that's usually done with a very small needle and has some needle close to the units 31 gauge as opposed to acupuncture needles, 36 gauge, the higher the number, the smaller the bore of the deal.

Philip Pape 52:07

Is right into your stomach, or thigh or something like that, right.

Dr. Rand McClain 52:11

Sorry, yeah. Occasionally, it can be done internationally as well. But most of the peptides, I think people just kind of get in the habit of doing a separate ASC. Sometimes for good reason, because you want the uptake to be slower. Sometimes it was to fashion this, I'm flushing with certain of these. But So your question was, what circumstances would you use it, it would be really up to your goals. Now. There's some that use insulin where you have a disease state, but let's say for the Masters athlete, I call this right, more difficult to put on muscle mass. We use thymosin beta four, for example, which helps with regeneration of acting within the sarcomere, which was writing this

Philip Pape 52:54

down, hold on. Okay,

Dr. Rand McClain 52:59

well, it also there's another way, slightly different TV 500. But yeah, I mean, again, the sky's the limit, it just depends upon what it is you're trying to work on. There's typically some sort of peptide that works. And the funny thing is, it's not cut and dried, like you might expect. And some works the same for everybody pretty much right? And he takes much of it, you remove too much glucose and you can die. And some are riskier than others, but then you can have somebody that uses almost forget, it starts with a D and I'm not gonna remember this one, but it's used to help people sleep and some people swear by it. Some people didn't do a doggone thing. Some x is an anxiolytic. Some people swear by it doesn't do anything for others. So, you know, is that dose related? We've experimented, I have haven't noticed that it makes a difference because those just some people work with certain structures and some people don't. So Moreland is a classic example. Have you heard of some Orlan? So growth hormone releasing hormone if you take the first 29 amino acids, it's what we call Sermorelin. We used to be branded as jerith Dr. Richard Walker's involved in all that. And it acts the same way you injected very short acting, but it makes it makes your body produce more growth hormone. That's what it's for. Well, there's a small but significant percentage of those people that when they do it, they get incredible somnolence such that they have to back down on the dose or survive the next you know, morning to noon on espresso is interesting, in that

Philip Pape 54:40

it's a genetic it's a genetic difference. Like if we pegged some of these down to someone's DNA.

Dr. Rand McClain 54:45

Not that I'm aware of. I don't think we've gotten into that kind of nuance to share but eventually we can if we do enough study in particular if you employ AI out okay, there, is there a genetic component there is it is it genetics, is it EPA genetics involved? Is it a combination of oh, they do this with that? I mean, that's what makes us Yeah, that's crazy. Where AI comes in, that's changed the subject. But you know, it's in the news recently, right?

Philip Pape 55:11

Yeah. A lot. We can talk AI for sure.

Dr. Rand McClain 55:15

I don't think we should slow down one bit, I think we might take certain precautions with, you know, using AI and military installations and things that can, you know, drum up, you know, the old, what was it? How in

Philip Pape 55:27

1000? Yeah, otherwise,

Dr. Rand McClain 55:28

this was it, you know, in medicine, because, you know, sky's the limit is what we can find.

Philip Pape 55:33

Exactly, yeah, that that is a huge, huge area of potential is in medicine. You were talking earlier about Dr. Google and I at the time, I thought, Oh, what about Dr. Chat, GBT? Because I've tried using it for things like, you know, I had a little rash on my wrist or something. And I'm, and I'm like, you know, what could this be? And it says, I'm not a doctor. But here's what the evidence showed, you know, of course, they've got all the Cya in there. Well, speaking of the genetics, just real quick, do you do genetic testing at your practice? Yeah, yeah,

Dr. Rand McClain 56:04

I'm a big fan of it. And also, epigenetic testing, you know, the DNA methylation testing, can give you a lot of good feedback as to what you're doing the results of what you're doing. Okay. Is it helping, you know, is it furthering your age, your biological age? Or is it helping you be younger for longer? So, yeah, a big proponent of that, while telomeres I don't think are is helpful. I'd also like to use those for aging. Yeah, I guess it's also helpful. It's just not as pinpoint. As as you might say, as DNA methylation, we get pretty precise with DNA methylation. But it's also nice to look at your genome period, not this the epigenome to see, okay, what is my propensity, let's say, God forbid, I've got essential hypertension, I've done everything, right. I can't figure it out. But I've got hypertension, or it's renal artery stenosis, and I don't want to get treatment for what drug will work better for me or best for me. We have the relationships mapped out there with certain drugs, well, you know, or certain categories? Well, you'll do better with, you know, a diuretic than an ACE inhibitor. That, to me is fascinating, too. Because, you know, especially with critical care, you don't waste time trying something that may or may not work based upon your genes.

Philip Pape 57:28

That's fascinating. Yeah, no, this is this is incredible. I mean, you you touch on a lot of this in your book, I don't know, I didn't read it in detail, but eyebrows, because I just got it a few days ago, I'm assuming the peptides, you go into some detail about the types and what they're what they're for, in the book,

Dr. Rand McClain 57:46

you know, unlike some of the other books, and, you know, one just came out from a guy who I'm a big fan of Peter to outlive. It his tells more of a story, I think, and fewer not gonna say there are action items that I tried to go into, for better or for worse details as to, you know, more of those options, you know, not just oh, peptides can do this. But here's some peptides, as you know, here's a smattering of the peptides. And here's the dose and and, you know, here are the pharmacies that I recommend, because you don't want to be doing. I don't suggest that use, you know, the black market in places that aren't qualified to do so. Yeah, when I was 20, I might have done differently. But again, you know, I'm not 20. And I don't recommend it. Do as I say, not as I did it. So yeah, I try and present that in all areas where at the end of the chapter, there's some call to action items.

Philip Pape 58:42

Yep. Yeah, no, I personally appreciate that style of book. It's like a combination, very detailed reference and stories and anecdotes, and it has a positive, I think, positive, optimistic tone to it, which I can appreciate. It's not doom and gloom. It's here's how you can take control. So just wrap up with a couple last questions, if you don't mind. You've you've probably seen a lot happening in a career, a lot of advancements, we talked about a few of them earlier. And you even said that some of the industry is just catching up, like you're probably ahead of where a lot of conventional facilities might be. Give us the inside scoop like what are what is coming up maybe that people haven't heard of what's cutting edge? What's out there that's being developed? I guess, besides AI and what we've already talked about?

Dr. Rand McClain 59:27

Well, again, kind of a difficult question to answer it this way with all the things we have the areas like we haven't even touched on gene editing or stem cells. I think what is going to be the most fascinating and one of the most powerful things is going to sound kind of anticlimactic. But if you think about it's going to be hugely powerful is the communications between the various specialties, the various disciplines. What I mean by that as we talk Some a little bit earlier where, okay, we'll use stem cells to grow organs, okay? And AI to develop the right peptides, combine all that to come up with a faster, better working peptide or a drug we could use any drugs doesn't have to be limited to peptides, what we've been lacking, and it's partly because of the structure, it's not a conspiracy thing, but the NIH funds projects, okay. And if you're a researcher and someone wants to advance the sport, so to speak, you're stuck in a lot while you're certainly governed by money. And there's only a limited amount of private funding the NIH, will I forget what the stats are, but maybe they'll fund maybe one in five, if that's correct. But you also have to be swinging with the same balls, in the sense that if you're pursuing something other than, you know, amyloid plaque for Alzheimer's, well, you're not gonna get funded. Well, that limits us. I mean, yeah, you're shaking like that. You don't have to think about everything. What?

Philip Pape 1:01:02

So we're just not surprised, though.

Dr. Rand McClain 1:01:06

All these other areas, and I shouldn't sound purposely actually, because we have screwed up on that. We're now finding that that's not that look, I guess the cause it's really more of a reaction to something that's going on. And we've wasted a lot of time and research money. Okay. So anyway, without going too far afield, because you know, I am an eternal optimist. Focus on the positive, we're going to the future is combining these things and finding groups like one of my peers, Gary, Michaelson, milking, milking Foundation, and UCLA, they've all gotten together and made it so that they're going to change the way it's funded. So that if you have some, pardon my French but wild acid idea as to how to fix the problem of Alzheimer's, we're gonna say, sounds good, and you're going to make a presentation. But here's the funding for it. Not only that, okay. The upshot of that is also that you're not going to be sitting there going like, Okay, this is my information. Okay? If I let it go, I'm not going to get funded next year, because someone else is going to run with that ball. No, you're going to still get funded by these groups, okay, because that's the approach we want to take. And we're going to share that information with everybody else. So that this hand knows what this hand is doing. To me. I know it doesn't sound like souks, too excited. But if you think about it, that's one of the most exciting things about the what we're going from here is that we're going to start communicating with one another. Yeah. She's on a logarithmic changes in our knowledge base.

Philip Pape 1:02:41

Yeah, I mean, that's open source that's crowdsourcing. I mean, you see it in the research in the, in the academic world where they have like the Open Access papers, and you have these open databases and all researchers, I mean, all of that stuff is great. Like, the more we share, the more we all benefit. So I'm with you there, man. Yeah.

Dr. Rand McClain 1:02:57

Yes, we've been hamstrung because of money. And that's a Romney. Excuse.

Philip Pape 1:03:03

Yeah, no, because it's a perverse incentive. But let's, let's get together

Dr. Rand McClain 1:03:06

and make it a crummy excuse, you know?

Philip Pape 1:03:10

Well, let's, let's end on one more note here. This is a question I ask all guests, you can't get out of it. And that is one question. Did you wish I had asked and what is your answer? Well, that's a good one.

Dr. Rand McClain 1:03:26

What would I want a phrase like more like, Okay, if you're a patient, what should you ask me by now? Wow. And you gotta be stumped. Mean. We're, yeah. There's so much out there. I don't know what you know, there's so many things you could ask. I mean, I could go on talking about this.

Philip Pape 1:03:50

There's so many topics in your book, I didn't even get to rank and

Dr. Rand McClain 1:03:53

run them out for an indefinite amount of time, at least until he asked to eat again. But um, yeah, what to ask me. I don't know that maybe. Is there? Is there a favorite area I have? You know, that's a kind of a, whatever. Want to go for it. Dan questions. I'm just trying to get out of it, because it hit me that

Philip Pape 1:04:12

you're not the only one. This seems to be a stumper. I think it was sent me to.

Dr. Rand McClain 1:04:16

One of the things we haven't talked about is that my mentioned is stem cells. Stem cells seem to be stem in new cells, which is something I mentioned in the book. new cells are different than stem cells and that they don't cause cancer, they can cross the blood brain barrier. There as are more powerful than stem cells. And until we get some of these other things together, and it further medicines to the point where we can do it like Star Trek, you know, we know everything that generates the perfect injection of stem cells provide a great bridge stem and new cells until we figure out some stuff because you know, I took a monkey could do it because stem cells know how to hone in on the area that needs the help. So you could give These stem immune cells intravenously, and with some general caveats, like okay, the way is perfused, a lot of these are gonna go to the ones first, but they know where to go. And if you have damage from a recent or even an old MI, heart attack, those cells go in there and make some repairs. That's fascinating. And that gives us a lot of time for those that have been injured or will be injured. Until we come up with even greater advancements in medicines that can dodge those from the start. or protect us even more quickly.

Philip Pape 1:05:35

I'm all in I'm all in doctor. And I mean, all this new stuff a takes on something that's called a biologic that wouldn't have existed as little as five years ago for a condition and it's just crazy how they can target stuff. So amazing. This has been a fun conversation. Where can people find out more about you? I mentioned the book. Well, where do you want them to go?

Dr. Rand McClain 1:05:54

Well, our website you know, we have a website PSR med.com. Don't ask me I came up with as an old story. But Papa Sierra Romeo med.com. Like to keep a lot of pertinent information up there. Like to stay in touch. through Instagram, I find that to be pretty cool through the PR people that I've got to know, because I can answer questions without one. And then post some tidbits, you know, the world lives in those, what, minute, two minute and a half. We're up on LinkedIn, and I think Twitter and Facebook, all those. So you know, any of those, I guess

Philip Pape 1:06:29

I'll throw I'll throw it in there. Don't worry. And I'll connect, connect with the folks as well, just to make sure it's all good. And this has been a fascinating conversation. I wasn't sure you know what we'd get into and we covered a lot of tangents that were a lot of fun. And you were not long winded in any way. This is this was a needed conversation. I'm sure the listener is gonna get a lot out of it. So thank you, Dr. Ram for coming on the show.

Dr. Rand McClain 1:06:49

Thank you. I appreciate you having me. Thank you very much.

Philip Pape 1:06:53

Philip Pape 4/21/23 Philip Pape 4/21/23

Ep 63: Q&A – Dietary Guidelines, Carbs, Lipedema, Life Stress, Fasting for Longevity, Killer Plants, and Metabolic “Damage”

In this solo episode, I am excited to answer questions from listeners about how to modify nutrition and training if you have lipedema, how stress affects training and health, whether occasional fasting can increase longevity while keeping protein high, and a quick fire round where I answer seven questions sent in by one listener about dietary guidelines, killer plants, getting fat on carbs, metabolic damage, blood sugar and A1C, shredding for a vacation, and how to best measure getting jacked.

In today’s solo episode, I am excited to answer questions from listeners about how to modify nutrition and training if you have lipedema, how stress affects training and health, whether occasional fasting can increase longevity while keeping protein high, and a quick fire round where I answer seven questions sent in by one listener about dietary guidelines, killer plants, getting fat on carbs, metabolic damage, blood sugar and A1C, shredding for a vacation, and how to best measure getting jacked.

Tune in now to learn more about these topics!

__________
Schedule your FREE 30-minute Nutrition Momentum Call with Philip here:
__________

Today you’ll learn all about:

[1:46] Is there any research to back up a specific diet or exercise regimen for someone with lipedema?
[5:44] How to manage life stress, and how does it affect training and health?
[9:58] Stephanie shares her experience with her one-on-one nutrition coaching with Philip
[10:45] Is fasting beneficial for longevity?
[16:00] Are dietary guidelines making us fat and sick?
[17:03] Are plants trying to kill us?
[18:01] Do carbs make us fat?
[18:40] Is there any validity to metabolic damage claims?
[19:36] If I have normal blood sugar levels, should I strive to prevent “spikes” and lower my A1c?
[20:27] What’s the best way to look great for an upcoming vacation?
[21:32] Is adding weight to the bar the only metric I need to consider?
[23:10] Outro

IG: @witsandweights
Email: philip@witsandweights.com

🥩 Download your Free Ultimate Macros Guide and 50 High-Protein Recipes here

👏 ENJOY THE SHOW?

⭐ Leave a review here
💁‍♀️ Become a supporter and get a shout out here
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Transcript

Philip Pape 00:00

Right, just think about it when you're very stressed, you're worn out, you're rundown, you're less motivated. So if you have that get up and go, you might not have that. It interferes with your sleep quantity, your sleep quality. It even reduces your immune function so you get sick more often, and it increases inflammation. Stress is so important.

Philip Pape 00:23

Welcome to the Wits & Weights podcast. I'm your host Philip pape, and this twice a week podcast is dedicated to helping you achieve physical self mastery by getting stronger. Optimizing your nutrition and upgrading your body composition will uncover science backed strategies for movement, metabolism, muscle and mindset with a skeptical eye on the fitness industry so you can look and feel your absolute best. Let's dive right in. Wits & Weights community Welcome to another solo episode of the Wits & Weights podcast where we answer questions from you the listener sent to me through wits & weights.com through IG at Wits & Weights and through our free Facebook community, also called surprise Wits & Weights. I hope you enjoyed our last episode 62 with Amanda Cooper, where we talked about personalizing your fitness. Today for episode 63 we dive into questions about how to modify nutrition and training if you have lymphedema, how stress affects training and health. Whether occasional fasting can increase longevity while keeping protein Hi, and a quick fire round where I answer seven questions sent in by one listener about dietary guidelines, killer plants, getting fat on carbs, metabolic damage, blood sugar and a one C shredding for vacation and how to best measure getting jacked. Let's dive into today's questions. Question number one is about lipedema and it comes from two listeners. Tyler s writes, I was at a conference last fall with PTS who specializes in treating individuals with lymphedema and lymphedema. My son was born with primary lymphedema, which is why I was attending. They did an eval on me and said they think I have lymphedema stage one. Interestingly enough, interestingly enough, there's no link between the two. Apparently there isn't much that can be done for it other than maintaining a healthy weight and continuing to exercise and strength train. I always knew that I carried weight disproportionately in my lower half, but never knew why is there any research to backup a specific diet or exercise regimen. Now adding to this another listener and ln k adds. I've heard keto is helpful for lymphedema, but the research is a bit spotty. I think the biggest concern for this condition is lack of mobility and the fact that the composition of your lower half may not be the same as your upper half lymphedema. So lymphedema is something I didn't know much about. And I did some research. And it's a condition that causes additional fat accumulation in the lower body, disproportionately in the legs, the thighs, the glutes, and it can also cause pain, swelling and bruising. Sometimes it's misdiagnosed as obesity or lymphedema. But those are aren't related to lymphedema. I did some research and there's no cure for lymphedema. But lifestyle changes can mitigate the symptoms, they can prevent the complications, primarily through the same nutrition and training protocols that I would use with any client to improve and maintain body composition, with some minor exceptions that I'm going to cover in a second, keeping in mind that this is a nutrition and training podcast, I'm not a medical expert, I don't dispense medical advice, etc. So for nutrition, we still care about the basics about energy intake, having sufficient protein for muscle, carbs for energy and recovery fat for hormones and health. There's no evidence that a specific diet like low carb or keto is better than any other on average for someone with lymphedema. So as always, what I recommend is N equals one you are your own experimental sample, and you should experiment on your own and see if there's any difference. And one way to do this would be an elimination diet, you would cut out a bunch of foods that you suspect are irritants or things that cause you to feel less than optimal. See if you do feel better after cutting those out, and then start adding back foods in one at a time to see if any of those don't work for you. So that's and that's a protocol that pretty much anyone can use if they think if they suspect an allergen or some intolerance. Now on the training side, we might have more to work with because we care about things like circulation, you know, blood circulation in the legs, lymphatic drainage, strength, mobility, all of that, given the disproportionate amount of fat accumulation in the lower body. And again, although I'd still recommend things like squats and avoiding high impact cardio like running, which I would recommend that for most people anyway. But I think if you have lymphedema, you want

Philip Pape 05:00

Pay attention to whether you're getting specific pain or discomfort in your lower body and then adjust your training accordingly. And I have read that you can wear compression pants or compression garments during exercise to prevent swelling around your tissues. And then last but not least, there are other treatments to consider, like compression therapy, manual lymphatic drainage massage, and medical interventions that are beyond the scope of my coaching practice or this podcast. But I wanted to mention because they came up in my research, I would suggest working with your healthcare professional and develop a personalized plan with them with your coach, monitor adjust so you can manage your lymphedema and I hope that answer helps give you some ideas you may not have considered. Okay, question number two is also from Elaine Kay who writes, I would be interested in stress management and how stress at work, social etc, can affect training and health. Okay. So when we think of stress, it's this kind of life stress. That's the term I'm going to use life stress that I think most people think of the stress from your work from your home life from your family, from anything you do on a regular basis. And I think it really does have a massive effect on your training and health. Even more than you might realize. I've seen clients who everything else seems to be dialed in. But because of this chronic stress, their body just wants to preserve itself. And this there's this direct physiological effect that is happening right where the stress, quote unquote stress hormones cortisol and adrenaline get elevated, and they get elevated for much longer than they would in a natural human state. If you think of how humans lived before civilization, where we rose and went to sleep with the sun, you look at your cortisol cycle where it rises in the morning and gradually declines at night, and then increasing your serotonin and melatonin. Nowadays, we often have to take adrenal support and melatonin supplements, and all these things because we've got blue light hitting us in the face, we've got sounds, we've got the city, you've got people and it just goes on and on. So elevated cortisol causes greater fat storage and muscle breakdown. And this chronic stress is correlated with many health factors, higher anxiety, depression, poor gut health, headaches, body aches, heart disease, high blood pressure, stroke, problems, sleeping, weight gain, and memory impairment, just to name a few are pretty much the name all of them.

Philip Pape 07:29

Stress also depletes your energy, right? Just think about it when you're very stressed, you're worn out, you're rundown, you're less motivated. So if you have that get up and go, you might not have that. It interferes with your sleep quantity, your sleep quality. It even reduces your immune function, so you get sick more often. And it increases inflammation. Stress is so important. And life stress makes you crave foods and makes it crave more calorie dense foods, you end up skipping meals or you forget to drink water, it affects your nutrition leads to more emotional eating. And then because life stress, stress affects your mood and your mental health. It can mess with your emotions, your self esteem, your confidence, your relationships, your quality of life. Okay, so what can we do about it, and what what I think we want, we want a good balance. We want balance between acute short term stressors, the things that we like to do for our body, like strength training, that contribute toward health. And we want a balance between that and our life stress. So even if you can't eliminate the source of the life stress, and I would argue that in many cases, if you really think hard enough and come up with a plan, you probably could eliminate some of that life stress. It just may require getting uncomfortable or making choices, choices, outside the scope of what you had thought, like changing your job or moving to a new house. These are big decisions. But if they contribute massively to chronic stress, they affect your health. And if your health is your number one priority, do the math. So if you but if you can't, or even if you can, you can mitigate life stress by training, training properly and allowing for recovery, eating foods that fuel and feel great for your body, drinking plenty of water, getting plenty of sleep, devoting at least 30 minutes each day to me time, right self care so that you can relax and recover. So guess what, these are all the things you want to be doing anyway. And once you're aware and cognizant of how important stress is toward your body composition, your nutrition, your training, you will put in the efforts to mitigate it or even eliminate it. And I really want you to take a step back and do that right now. Think about those places in your life that cause you stress and know that you are in total control of doing something about it. You can do something and then you can also mitigate the stress. So I hope that answered your question about stress management.

10:00

The most value that I got from this was the fact that I had someone that I could talk to about anything and that there was going to be no judgement, it was just Well, here are your goals, here's the best way that you're going to achieve it. And then let's work together to help you feel inspired and motivated to do that. And there's a lot of people out there trying to be coaches, and not all of them have done the work and also just be a genuine person that is positive and coming from the heart in terms of wanting to help and Phillip really embodied all of those qualities, I would recommend him to just about anyone that's looking to achieve goals in that realm of their nutrition and building new habits.

Philip Pape 10:45

Question three is from Alan F. Who writes, I just heard Ben Pakulski on his podcast, muscle intelligence, great podcast, by the way I hadn't been funny thing is I subscribed to so many podcasts and I had not come across that one. And I started listening to it muscle intelligence. And I'm really enjoying it Allen because he his, his lens, his perspective, his angle is a little bit different than a lot of the nuts and bolts podcast. And he states he says it like it is but then he also cover some interesting angles that that others might not all back by the evidence. So great recommendation, I'm happy to recommend other podcasts in that one I did like muscle intelligence. And he heard Ben say that fasting three to four times a month can be beneficial for longevity, while protein intake remains high. There are many people adopting fasting, not just daily window fasting, which I would refer to as time restricted feeding, and some people call intermittent fasting, but also multiple day fasting. What is your take on this practice? Okay, I re I re reviewed the evidence. Okay, not that I'm some no expert. But the evidence is constantly changing. So it's good to get it refreshed in case some big study comes along, that just blows everything out of the water. But the evidence on fasting for longevity still appears inconclusive. Even if you did watch the what is that with Chris Hemsworth, limitless on Disney, pretty cool show just to show people going into extremes. And he fasted for like four days in a row. Insane. But he did. But anyway, many of the studies have been done on animals. And they've had mixed results, and actually found four studies that support fasting for longevity, but we have to keep in mind that they are short term. And they are observational. But just to play devil's advocate, I wanted to put them out there so you can look it up. And if if you read them and you're like, hey, this seems to support fasting, I want to give it a shot, go for it, give it a shot, right? It's not for everyone. And if it if it's beneficial at all, we just don't quite know on humans because we haven't enough of time, or studies on humans. Anyway, here are the four studies. There's one by Harvard, showing that fasting can increase lifespan, slow aging and improved health by altering the activity of mitochondrial networks inside our cells. There's a review article by Longo at all, in it to discuss the benefits and drawbacks of intermittent and periodic fasting for longevity and disease prevention in humans. And it links them to major nutrient sensing signaling pathways, focusing on the benefits of fasting and refeeding periods. The third one is a clinical trial by way at all that found that a five day fasting mimicking diet improved biomarkers of aging, metabolism and cardiovascular health. And then there's a study by Teruya at all, where fasting increased the levels of metabolites, the specific metabolites that decline with age and are associated with longevity in humans. So pretty cool stuff, there's a lot of data out there. But you have to take it with a grain of salt and read the methodology and so on to really understand what the study is saying. Now, other things need to be considered the type of fasting, the duration, the frequency, the intensity, your age, your overall health, your goals, and so on. And as as mentioned, in the podcast, where the question came from, you're gonna sacrifice a bit of muscle during fasting. So to your question, you could potentially try a protein only fast, which is a strategy I've recommended for time restricted feeding when you want to try that you simply eat protein throughout the day, and you avoid fats and carbs during the fasting window. So you get up in the morning, and you would just have breakfast as normal, but it would be pure protein, okay, then maybe, maybe your lunch would be pure protein, but then between three and 7pm, you would have all your carbs and fats in those meals. And then you're done. And you kind of have a small fasting window and then an extended fast from protein only, and then you start doing your fats and carbs. So that's something that you can try. I think the jury's still out in terms of longevity, but for short term benefits. There's you and you alone who can who knows if it's going to work for you. So give it a shot. Try it for a few months. Track your biofeedback track your results, get the day To compare before and after. All right, good luck. And now so this is gonna be fun. I'm gonna do a quick fire round. There are seven questions from fellow coaching community member, Dustin Lambert, who by the way, he recorded an interview with me that will come out about a month from this episode. I think he wanted to help me fill up some airtime. So what I should have done was sit him down and show my list of about 1000 ideas I have already for future solo podcast episodes. But nonetheless, Dustin man, I'm very grateful because it allows me to inject a little bit of humor to this episode, so you'll see what I mean. Now, you all listeners, you know, I love to talk, but I do it out of love. I want to share as much value as possible on the show. So either way, it's going to be fun. I'm going to answer these questions. Mike Matthews style if you don't listen to muscle for life, love the guy Mike Matthews. Sometimes he has q&a episodes where he like rapid fires his answers with with snark and Sass, so I'll do my best. Here we go. Number one, our dietary guidelines making us fat and sick. Alright, dietary guidelines are government sponsored advice on what to consume to survive to avoid malnutrition to avoid chronic disease. I would say these are rock bottom minimums in most cases, with some reasonable targets mixed in. But to your question, Dustin, are those guidelines sneaking into your kitchen at night? To make you a snack? Or here's another angle are people who struggle with weight and disease? Are they following any guidelines? You tell me? Are they following any guidelines at all, even if they wanted to? Chances are they either don't know what to do. Or if they listen to this podcast and they're educated on what to do. They struggle with how to do it and being consistent. And this is where tracking measuring taking action with tools like flexible dieting, give us freedom to choose our foods without being beholden to third party guidelines, while still being informed of the evidence when it comes to our health. So let's take the power back from guidelines from rigid diets and from fitness influencers and master our own physical health. Number two, are plants trying to kill us? All right, only if you're Seymour and Little Shop of Horrors, where Audrey to feeds on human flesh. But otherwise, plants are the best thing since sliced bread with way more nutrients, vitamins and minerals. Yes, plants have defense mechanisms like mild toxins and allergens, which is why we generally cook them and eat them in moderation. And we monitor our digestion to identify things that feel great when we consume them and avoid the things that don't chances are most people are under eating plants. I mean, I went for years without eating any vegetables, or anything you could call a vegetable. I mean I had corn and potatoes, but anything green until my wife finally trained me to do it at my request. So thank you honey for doing that. Plants have fiber they fill you up they fill in your nutrient caps, nutrient caps, nutrient gaps, and they taste great if you prepare them the right way. Number three do carbs make us fat. No, but eating too many calories over a prolonged period will make you fat. Unless carbs are now sentient with muffins being imbued with chat. GBT brains are now plotting to infiltrate our salads without us knowing carbs are not going to make you fat. On the contrary, carbs are critical for energy and recovery, and overeating. Any macro to put you in a calorie surplus is what leads to weight gain. Carbs can keep you full, especially the complex variety, like whole grains and vegetables that have lots of fiber and not much sugar, and they can regulate your blood sugar and insulin. Three cheers to carbs. Number four, is there any validity to metabolic damage claims? No, none whatsoever. But there is validity to metabolic adaptation. Damage implies permanence and it's a juicy marketing term to entice desperate people to buy your eight week rapid weight loss program. But adaptation is just a temporary state where your metabolism or total daily energy expenditure is downregulated. And it declines due to stressors like being in a calorie deficit, or doing too much cardio to those of you running a marathon every day, or simply weighing less during a fat loss phase moving and walking less and the downregulation of hormones. This is totally normal and easily reversed by recovering to maintenance calories or higher. And by the way, if you use macro factor and you know what your expenditure is, you don't have to reverse it up. If you don't want to you can jump straight to me it's calories. Number five.

Philip Pape 19:37

If I have normal blood sugar levels, should I strive to prevent spikes and lower my a one C. Okay. spikes in blood sugar are normal after eating certain foods, so don't freak out. prolonged high blood sugar however, can be a sign of metabolic disease or what we call pre diabetes. A one C measures average blood glucose over a two to three month period It normal agency level is under 5.7%. A pre diabetic level is between 5.7 and 6.4%. In the diabetic level is 6.5% or higher. If you focus on maintaining a healthy body composition, eating a diverse diet of 80 to 90% Whole Foods you're golden. Also get moving, go for walks, especially after meals. Disclaimer. Again, this podcast does not dispense medical advice, and it's for entertainment purposes only. Number six, what's the best way to look great for an upcoming vacation? Be you have fun, the right blend of confidence sunshine, a bangin pair of shades should do the trick. And here's the thing. Looking great for vacation by improving your body composition takes time and cannot be rushed in eight to 12 weeks. Give yourself six months before any such event and do the things we talk about on this podcast all the time. lift heavy weights with progressive overload in the four to six rep range. Use a flexible dieting approach where you track and measure your calories and macros until you know what and how much you eat. Walk regularly. Get plenty of high quality sleep, eat your protein and take care of yourself, then periodized your nutrition with the seasons. So your fat loss phase takes about 12 to 16 weeks leading up to your vacation. Then we're close that you feel great in smile often compliment and be kind to others and try out a new adventure. Most of all relax and have fun. Number seven is adding weight to the bar the only metric I need to consider. Well as they say variety is the spice of life. adding weight to the bar is a necessity especially for beginners to know that you're actually getting stronger and building muscle. But after a few short months of this and being consistent with this, you may need to play with rep sets volume, frequency, intensity, range of motion, tempo variation of your movements. Don't forget food, sleep and recovery. If you're in the bodybuilding, you can throw in drop sets, rest pause sets density sets isometrics to add some challenging variety. Be creative, be flexible, but also know that if you are using weight on the bar as your only metric and it's going up, enjoy the games, bro. All right. That does it for today's q&a episode. Wits & Weights community. I'm always happy to jump on a free 30 minute call to walk through your specific nutrition and fitness issues and questions. No selling no pitching. To book a free 30 minute nutrition momentum call just use the link in my show notes. We'll dive deep into your approach. We'll customize it to get you better results for your health and body composition. Again, just look for that free call link in the show notes next week for episode 64. We have a fun and informative interview with Dr. Rand McLean, also known as America's longevity doctor, you'll learn about hormones and hormone replacement menopause versus menopause peptides, innovative treatments, the use of AI in medicine and more. As always, stay strong. And I'll talk to you next time here on the Wits & Weights podcast. If you've been inspired by today's interview, and are ready to take action and build momentum on your health and fitness journey, just schedule a free 30 minute nutrition momentum call with me using the link in my show notes. I promise not to sell or pitch you on anything but I will help you gain some perspective and guidance so we can get you on the right track toward looking and feeling your best

Philip Pape 4/18/23 Philip Pape 4/18/23

Ep 62: Redefining Personalized Fitness and Breaking Through Barriers with Amanda Cooper

My guest today is Amanda Cooper, and we are going to talk about getting into fitness, physical strength, and mobility, eliminating things that hold you back from getting started, working with what you have, and the value of getting an assessment!

We begin with Amanda sharing how she got into fitness, from her personal journey and struggles with eating disorders and body image, to her experience working in a chiro clinic that gave her a different perspective on coaching, and her business now as a fitness coach.

Amanda shares powerful mindset shifts and actionable tips on breaking down fitness barriers and getting started by keeping it simple. Her clear understanding of what holds people back from pursuing fitness, especially women, gives her an advantage in providing support to those who want to start but don't know how or have self-doubt about starting and being consistent. She believes in the effectiveness of the right motivation in staying in a fitness program.

Amanda is a Strength Coach, Horse mom, Coffee Connoisseur, and Outdoor adventurer. She’s also the host of the Carbs & Coffee podcast.
__________
Schedule your FREE 30-minute Nutrition Momentum Call with Philip here:
__________
Today you’ll learn all about:

[2:16] Amanda shares her journey
[6:40] Taking up space in the gym
[8:40] Barriers to fitness for women or people in general
[10:22] Importance of session length
[12:18] How to get over the barriers
[13:58] 3 core components for behavior
[18:05] Strength training, resistance training, and nutrition
[20:12] How training affects appetite
[21:38] What you can do if you don't have a home gym
[23:12] How to be consistent
[26:06] Assessment process
[30:05] Full-depth squats with a band vs. partial rep squats over time
[31:45] Importance of an assessment before starting your program
[33:55] How to get started in improving your strength and physique
[35:35] Two questions Amanda wanted Philip to ask her
[39:01] Where to find Amanda
[40:08] Outro

Episode resources:

Facebook Group: Ambitious Women's Fitness Secrets
Podcast: Carbs & Coffee
Join the free Facebook community to download the beginners' strength guide here.

IG: @witsandweights
Email: philip@witsandweights.com

🥩 Download your Free Ultimate Macros Guide and 50 High-Protein Recipes here

👏 ENJOY THE SHOW?

⭐ Leave a review here
💁‍♀️ Become a supporter and get a shout out here
👥 Join our free community for guides, live trainings, & challenges here
🙋‍♀️ Ask a question for Q&A here

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Get notified of new episodes. Use your favorite podcast platform or one of the buttons below. Then hit “Subscribe” or “Follow” and you’re good to go!

Transcript

Amanda Cooper 00:00

Keep it simple squat deadlift, overhead press. Do the basic movements and progress that over time, don't work through injury don't work through pain, and you will absolutely see progress. Even if it's not as curated or individualized to your needs, you will still be moving the needle forward in the right direction.

Philip Pape 00:25

Welcome to the Wits & Weights podcast. I'm your host, Philip pape, and this twice a week podcast is dedicated to helping you achieve physical self mastery by getting stronger. Optimizing your nutrition and upgrading your body composition will uncover science backed strategies for movement, metabolism, muscle and mindset with a skeptical eye on the fitness industry so you can look and feel your absolute best. Let's dive right in. Welcome to another episode of Wits & Weights. My guest today is Amanda Cooper. And we're going to talk about getting into fitness, physical strength and mobility, eliminating things that hold you back from getting started working with what you have and the value of getting an assessment. Amanda is a strength coach, horse mom, coffee connoisseur and outdoor adventure. She's also the host of the carbs and coffee podcast, so make sure to subscribe and support her show. Amanda is a fellow nutrition coach that connected with last year in late 2022. And she and I did a live training in her Facebook group back in December about metabolism. Her group is called ambitious women's fitness secrets. So go and join that to check the training out and many other free resources. Amanda found Fitness Through her personal journey in navigating eating disorders and extreme challenges with body image. She found her love for the weight room early in high school, and has been at it ever since. Her initial experience was in the rehab field working in a Cairo clinic as an assistant and personal trainer. And that gave her insight into the human body and a different perspective on coaching. Amanda realized how much of a gap there was in the fitness space for personalized programming and nutrition, and how she could simplify the complexity of health and fitness to make an impact. Amanda, it's great to see you again. Thank you for coming on the show. Yeah, thanks for having me. I'm super excited to dive into all this. So why don't we do that? Why don't we dive into your personal story to start with? Yeah. Yeah, we mentioned in the introduction that you had some challenges early on in your life with eating disorders, issues of body image. And then you discovered lifting rehab coaching, walk us through your journey that led to the current approach you have, which is this personalized approach to programming and nutrition. Yeah, so like high school middle school, I really had a terrible relationship with food. And I think part of it had to do with my dad was a diabetic and both my parents are first responders. So you know how they say medical professionals make for the worst patients, well try being their child. So that made for an interesting, you know, relationship with with exercise and with nutrition. And I found a love for the gym in like late middle school, early high school and I kind of swapped my disordered relationship with food for exercise. You know, my mom always said calories are like a checkbook. So the more you eat, the more you have to work, you know, she said if I go to the gym, I can I can eat what I want when the reality was her relationship with food wasn't great either. So that really influenced my initial relationship with the gym and with food. And then I got my first coach and that was in college. And I was going to the gym five days a week and totally under eating are still didn't have a great relationship with food, it had improved immensely at that point. And that really shifted my perspective on food, like I was given an 1800 Calorie like breakdown with 130 grams protein, and I was just shocked by how much food that was. And now thinking about it like that really wasn't that much food compared to you know where I am now. And then that experience really introduced me into the like If It Fits Your Macros kind of bodybuilding world that you could eat whatever you want, as long as it fit into your macros. And then I got a job in a chiropractic clinic Jim hybrid after I graduated with a management and marketing degree. And working for them was a really great experience. It really introduced me to you know how to personalize fitness to individuals based off of their

Amanda Cooper 05:00

needs their injury history. And I started to see this gap between the service we were providing and their goals. So most people came to us they had like shoulder pain, back pain, whatever their issues were. But underlying all of that they really wanted to lose weight. And working as a personal trainer and a strength coach, those were the ways that I could support them, I really didn't have the capacity in that situation to help them with nutrition. And we know that that is the the main driver of fat loss that and habit change and all these things that I really couldn't do, because I saw these people twice a week, three times a week for an hour for a workout. And that was it. So then they made some management choices. And I was like, Alright, I'm out of here. I had no plans to leave, I thought that that was going to be the place that I worked until, you know, I had kids, and then I'd figure something else out like there was no plan to start my own business. And then I was like, nope, things have turned in a direction that I'm not interested in heading. So I jumped ship, I started my own business. And now we're here. So now I really focus on helping women, one learn to take up space in the gym, because I think it can be a really intimidating place. And I help them diet in a way that does not destroy their relationship with food so that they can have the body that they want while still enjoying the foods that they love. Yeah, thank you so much for sharing all of that. It's funny how life throws you curveballs like it did in your case. And then it led to something even greater that probably was unexpected. So what talking about those two things that you just mentioned? Tell us more about, I guess, let's start about the space in the gym. I'm really curious about that phrase. I know, I've seen it used. And I think a lot of people know what it means. But maybe elaborate on that.

Amanda Cooper 07:04

Yeah, so a lot of the women that I work with really struggle, even getting into the gym, like I've had clients that have legitimately gone to the gym in the back, or sorry, gone to the bathroom at the gym and had a panic attack, because they were so overwhelmed, and had so much anxiety about going to the gym. And that was something that I worked through myself and through following a program and having a coach and I see it all the time, go, you know, go in after you know, New Years, and you'll see the cardio room is filled with people and there's hardly anybody in the weight room. And when you don't really know what you're doing in the weight room. It just makes it that much more intimidating. So really, we approach it with one education, like teaching people how to do those things in the weight room. So they feel confident doing it. And you know, empowering them to to understand that they deserve to be there and they deserve to take up some space in the gym and not be like they have to hide in the corner at the gym. Because other people are judging them because the reality is everybody's paying attention to themselves. But sometimes it takes that outside voice or a coach or a friend to tell you, nobody's watching you. Yeah, yeah. Not not like what these fitness influencers would lead you to believe with filming things in the gym and criticizing people. I think reality is maybe not like that, right? And maybe even people in the gym, depending on the culture are more supportive than you think it really depends on the culture. So that sounds like education and empowerment, you talked about as to ways to, I guess lower the barrier to fitness, especially for women. What would you say? Are those the big ones? Are there other big barriers to fitness for most people? Whether it's emotional, physical or logistical you know, like just getting to the gym? What walk us through? Yeah, no, I think that two biggest barriers for women specifically, but I think people in general, because I know you speak to men and women, but time is a big one. And then competence is the other which I think is really rooted in not having a plan not having any structure to what they're doing. So time to get to the gym is huge. You know, we work with a lot of moms and dads and people that have so much going on. And so time is the biggest barrier. How do I get an effective workout in in a period of time that doesn't take so much away from everything else that I've got going on. And then competence to go in there and execute because you could have a this 30 minute block in your schedule, but if you don't have a plan, you're probably not feeling like very competent or very even motivated to go in for 30 minutes and get a workout in because you

Amanda Cooper 10:00

You really have no direction and what you're doing?

Philip Pape 10:03

Yeah, I love the use of a plan for confidence and competence and confidence. It probably permeates everything we do, right even nutrition and food and everything else. But at the same time, you're, you're telling us it'll solve a significant problem with time. Because you know what you're doing right? You have exactly your sets, reps, whatever. What about you mentioned session, session length has been important. Do you talk about having a home gym versus commuting to the gym? Things like that?

Amanda Cooper 10:32

Yeah, absolutely. I think having a home gym is not reasonable for everyone. And I think having you know, some dumbbells and maybe some bands could go a really long way for a lot of people. And, you know, I tell clients, when they sign up, if they've got, you know, 15 pound 20 pound dumbbells, we can work with that for a while, eventually, you're gonna outgrow that, and you're gonna want to either invest in additional weights, or a membership at a gym. And luckily, a lot of the women I work with, there's a planet fitness around somewhere. So that cost them you know, 10 or $12 a month, and they can do that reasonably, and not have to drop hundreds of dollars on on gym equipment. If you can invest in a home gym, I think it's a great option for a lot of people. But there's also value in going to the gym, especially for moms and for dads to get a break a mental break from all of the chaos at home. So it really depends on what is going to work for, for your situation, you know, do you have the finances to invest in equipment? If not, is there a gym that's within a reasonable, you know, distance from you that you can go to?

Philip Pape 11:55

So you're saying it's personalized all of these things? And of course, you, you know, people are overwhelmed. Women are overwhelmed with all these decisions that sort of, you know, somebody like, like Amanda has been through it all, and in some ways, has lived through the experience of every single one of our clients and can bring to bear that experience. So how do we how do we lower this barrier? Then? You talked about a few examples already in terms of planning and time in the gym or whatnot? Are there other things that come to mind? We talk about women who say there's a certain reason or excuse or some explanation that they can't find time or

Philip Pape 12:32

some other reason for getting into fitness? Yeah, well, I think there's a lot that we could dive into there. But I think the biggest or best solution to that is having a plan that is specifically curated to your needs. You know, I have people come to me on calls where, you know, they're looking at potentially working with us for coaching. And they're like, Well, what are the workouts look like? And I'm like, it depends on what does your schedule look like? What equipment do you have access to? On your worst week? How often could you go to the gym, and we take all those things into account when building out their program. On top of that, we do several assessments. So it really is curated to their needs into their body. But having some kind of a plan is, I think the first step in lowering that barrier.

Amanda Cooper 13:30

No matter who you are, follow some kind of a plan, whether that's writing out your workouts in a workout journal yourself, or using a template program. They're not my favorite, but it is better than not going to the gym at all. And optimal, like the optimal plan would be curated to your needs.

Philip Pape 13:51

Sure. Yeah, that's huge. And as the more detailed the better, right. I talked to a client earlier yesterday who she was either warming up too much or not enough. And I said, Are we writing down our warmup sets ahead of time? Oh, no, you know, maybe that would help, right? It's little things like that, as you mentioned, go a long way. And then your other comment about? You know, it depends. How many times does somebody come to you and say, just tell me what I need to do. Like, okay, well, here are the principles. Okay, well, for this principle, what do I need to do for this, this, this this scenario, because that's what I'm going through. Right. And that's where you get to the individual level.

Amanda Cooper 14:28

Yeah, yeah. No, absolutely. And I think a lot of This Just In a lot of the words that we've been using comes down to the like, three core components of behavior change. You know, I think we can all make a lot of excuses as to like, why to not have like, why we don't have time to go to the gym. But I think if it's something you really want to do, it is something that you'll make happen, and I really liked that you said He's just telling me what to do, because I hear that all the time. But the reality is, is us coaches, like, we don't want to coach you forever, right? We want you to build sustainable, lasting changes so that you don't need us forever and ever and ever. And the three, like main components of behavior, change our autonomy, relatedness and competence. So are you taking control over your own journey? And are you plugged into a community? And do you understand like, why you're doing what you're doing? Those are the three main things that are going to drive your motivation, and that are going to keep you consistently working towards these things when you don't want to, you know,

Philip Pape 15:42

cool, so that I'm taking note too, that autonomy relatedness and competence. Yeah, yeah, arc. That's the arc of your story in successful,

Amanda Cooper 15:54

yes, it's actually pulled from the self determination theory, which is basically the theory of motivation. And I could really dive into this right now. But I really think that a lot of coaches come out and say, you know, discipline is more important than motivation. And I really think that that is not accurate at all. It's the kind of motivation that you have that really matters. And if you have these three core components in place, those should be the drivers of your long term behavior change.

Philip Pape 16:28

Got it? Yeah, I've also heard it said that, you know, people think we always need the motivation to take action. And I think you've already alluded to the fact that we just need to have a plan and take that action, and maybe that will produce the results that then give us more motivation, and insight into these principles. So I, I like I like the I've always liked the quote, don't let the perfect don't let perfect be the enemy of the good, I think is what it is, you know what I'm trying to say? Don't let perfection be the enemy of the good, are doing somethings better than nothing. So how do you I've heard some of that in what you've been saying, how do you apply that approach to exercise and training?

Amanda Cooper 17:03

Yeah, so the first thing that we look at is, you know, what are you capable of doing? And what do you have the time and the capacity for? So we're, we're looking at things like your schedule your equipment, do you? Are you going to a gym or are you not, and we're also going to look at your body. So we're going to look at your joint mobility, we're going to look at your baseline strength, so that we can build a program that meets you where you're at. So we're looking at your squat, your deadlift, your push ups so that we're not giving you exercises that you physically cannot do.

Philip Pape 17:42

Yeah, in your Do you have personal trainers on staff? Are you a personal trainer? Amanda?

Amanda Cooper 17:48

Yeah. So I'm a personal trainer strength coach. Yeah, the list the list goes on. But yes, we do it all.

Philip Pape 17:56

And what is what is your what is your thought or opinion or philosophy, I should say, on strength training and resistance training with nutrition, you know, where they kind of meet? What is your philosophy on that?

Amanda Cooper 18:09

Yeah, I think it's funny, I put a poll in my Facebook group the other day about, you know, which is more important diet or exercise, and I didn't specify for weight loss at all. So it's really interesting to see everybody's response. But I think both are really valuable for one reason or another. So nutrition obviously, is going to drive really your response to training. So training is going to really influence your body composition, it's also going to influence your decision making. So exercise has been shown to actually influence your your hunger hormones for one, so hunger cues, and it's also influencing your ability to exercise self control. So they really go hand in hand in so many different ways that, you know, your nutrition might be perfect, but if you're not resistance training, you're probably never going to look, you know, quote, unquote, toned. But if you're training but not doing anything with your diet, again, you're probably never gonna look lean enough to have that toned look. So there's so many components that you really need from both to achieve that that longevity in in your body and the changes that physical like visual changes that most people want to see.

Philip Pape 19:39

Yeah, I love that, that that is so important. It's why I brought it up because I know you're a huge advocate of that. And there there are coaches out there that maybe try to separate the two for whatever reason. And like you said, you can't have one without the other. I know from personal experience when I first built strength for the right way the right way in the first time. I didn't have the nutrition down and I you You know, I was just overweight, but I was a lot stronger overweight. And I had to learn the other piece. You mentioned something about how training affects appetite. For example. Can you elaborate on that?

Amanda Cooper 20:12

Yeah. So they have found that those that consistently exercise actually have decreased appetite. So what the specific context is, I'm not entirely sure right offhand. But essentially, you're able to exercise self control better. And you're not, it will actually influenced cravings. So you won't crave those foods that, you know, most of us do. As much if you're consistently training, how it specifically works, I'm not entirely sure. But it does really influence those, those hunger hormones and your hunger cues. So you're not going to be reaching for those things that maybe don't support your goals as well as something else might. Does that answer your question?

Philip Pape 21:05

Yeah, does I think and it makes a lot of sense if people are listening, just, especially if we're in a fat loss phase, just movement and training can actually stave off the hunger. I think that's, that's awesome. And all of these things seem to help each other. Like it's hard to find a scenario where one sabotages the other in any way. And so what you said is, is makes a lot of sense. What if going back to the you talked about capability and capacity. So from the capacity standpoint, what if you don't have access to a gym like a nicely equipped gym or fancy training program? I know, we talked about a home gym, but what are some alternatives or creative and effective ways to still improve your health and physique?

Amanda Cooper 21:44

Yeah, so I think the first one is walking. And I know you talked about that one a lot. I talked about that one a lot. Walking is probably one of the best things that you could do for your health, especially. And if I could only give someone on one exercise to do it would be walking. But in terms of you know, doing something without a home gym, there's a lot that you can do that would still fall under the umbrella of resistance training at home. You know, if you're a mom, grab your Kids backpack, fill it with some, you know, canned soup and do some squats and do some rows. And you know, it's one of those like, you can still make your environment work for you. If it's something that you really want to do.

Philip Pape 22:33

Yeah, go go back to 2020. And look at all the creative way. And we went to Home Depot to find because they were one of the stores that were open.

Philip Pape 22:41

To build. Seriously. Yeah.

Philip Pape 22:43

Cool. Hey, this is Philip. And I hope you're enjoying this episode of Wits & Weights. If you're finding value in the content and want to stay up to date with all our latest episodes, be sure to hit the Follow button on your favorite podcast platform. By following you'll get notified whenever a new episode comes out. And you won't miss out on knowledge and strategies to level up your health and fitness. All right, let's get back to the episode. It sounds like a lot of this is predicated on the idea that we talked about people tend to make excuses but that there's like an antidote to that in having a plan that's individualized toward you. And that you can take control of your situation. So how do you deal with? How do you deal with people who once they understand that still find ways to sabotage their progress or make excuses or, you know, keep falling off the wagon to have trouble with consistency?

Amanda Cooper 23:35

Yeah, well, one of the first things that I tell people that come to me and say, Hey, I'm just one of those people that keeps falling off the wagon, like I started a program and I stick with it for six to eight weeks. And then I fall off the wagon. I say, you know, the same person that's always falling off the wagon is the same person always getting back on the wagon. So there's a little mindset tweak that can really impact people that are really struggling with that. I'm this person that falls off the wagon. No, maybe identify yourself as resilient. I'm the person that keeps getting back on. And then back to that self determination theory, it's really the theory of motivation and motivation is it is important, like, not the amount of motivation that you have, but the kind of motivation that you have. And there's a whole continuum of extrinsic and intrinsic motivation and the different kinds that you can have. But what's most important is finding what things within your health and fitness journey and within exercise and within changing your diet are actually psychologically fulfilling. They're adding value to your life and you are feeling fulfilled through doing it and you're finding joy through doing it. That is the Like core component of intrinsic motivation. And if you don't have that, and you don't understand what that is, then you probably will keep falling off the wagon, because it's not rooted in your needs and what's going to fulfill you

Philip Pape 25:16

psychologically fulfilling that. So there's a lot you mentioned there, and I'm learning myself, this is good stuff, the idea that you can. So at first I thought you were going to talk about really just relabeling or identifying your future self or your aspirational identity I've heard it called, but you you put a twist on it, that, hey, there are things about your personality or the way you've done things in the past that you can now turn into strengths. Right? If you always get back on the wagon, oh, then you're resilient. So of course, you're just going to keep going and going and going, let's use that. I think that's awesome in people who are listening to maybe inventory, those strengths, most people know them themselves better than anyone else. Right. And those strengths, and then take advantage of those. Awesome, dropping some some truth bombs here, Amanda good stuff. All right. So I want to talk about your assessment process a little bit more. Yeah. And you're like metabolic and physical strength, mobility? What does that look like for someone working with you? Or can someone even maybe do this on their own?

Amanda Cooper 26:18

Yeah, so the big thing that we do is to kick off somebody's program is a metabolic assessment. So we're looking at stress, sleep, how much food they're taking in most women that we work with, are not eating nearly enough food consistently. And so that's the first thing that we look at, because I think nutrition really is going to support the the rest of the process. And so we look at that first. And then we go into their strength and mobility assessment. So we're looking at things like, can you reach your arm overhead? Like if you pulled your arm up straight up overhead? Can you see your ear in front of your arm? If not, you probably don't have great upper, you know, upper body mobility. Either your shoulders are limited, or your thoracic spine is limited. So we're looking at all these things. We're looking at your your cat cow, we're seeing how your spine moves in segments. So does it move pretty well? Is it pretty stiff, and we're also taking into account do you work a desk job, because that's going to influence those things. So we're looking at your squat, we're looking at your deadlift, your pushup, and we're giving you very basic exercises to do to so it's going to be like a goblet squat, or a kettlebell deadlift. So something you can do with a kettlebell or a dumbbell. And then bodyweight exercises, so we can evaluate just your, your motor control. So your ability to actually like, control your joints and control your body through these movements, your core stability. And then we're also looking at your mobility and flexibility. So all of those things are going to influence how we build out a program for you. If you are somebody that maybe doesn't have good shoulder mobility, you can't reach arm overhead, we're gonna give you exercises, one to work on that improve your spinal mobility, improve your shoulder mobility, and maybe instead of giving you an overhead press, or gonna give you an incline bench press, because you're still able to get close to that overhead motion without compromising your your mobility.

Philip Pape 28:35

Yeah, so a couple of things. How do you actually do the assessment on the strength since you're an online coach?

Amanda Cooper 28:40

Yeah. So we have an entire library of exercises and assessment videos that I've done in my studio, Jim, on how to do them, what you should feel what you shouldn't feel how to set them up. All of our videos go into detail on whatever the specific exercise is. So we send clients it's basically laid out as a workout would be on their app. And they look at each video, if it says to record it, we tell them like how to record it, what angle we want to see and then how to do the exercise, it's really simple. It's going to be like standing against the wall and then bringing your arm up overhead. And then we're also going to have you lie on the floor and bring your arm up overhead. So we can kind of get an idea of your mobility, as well as your flexibility, which could be a whole other tangent. We're looking at the videos that you send us to to build out that program. So that's how we we go through that process. Right? Yeah,

Philip Pape 29:43

like people don't understand the logistics of it. And then you mentioned things like when you have a mobility issue, trying to work as close to the full range of motion as possible at the angle or with the implement or variant that you can do, which is good for people to hear because I think some people think Again, in a fixed of a fixed mindset that you are what you are. And what you're suggesting is you can work up to something. So I have a very specific question about the squat, because there's always a little debate on this. Would you rather somebody work up to a full depth squat? By doing full depth squats with like a band, or by doing partial rep squats are getting deeper over time?

Amanda Cooper 30:21

That's interesting question, I'm trying to think of a specific client scenario. So typically, I'm going to look at their bodyweight squat as well as their loaded squat. And that's going to tell me if it's more of a core control issue, or a mobility issue. And so, if they, a lot of times, if clients really struggle with core stability, which a lot of them do, their bodyweight squat might look awful, but you put weight in front of them, it forces them to engage their core, and it can really clean up their squat and make it look a lot better. So we're really finding out what the root of the issue is, I always would rather clients squat to full depth, if they can, if they are very limited in their hip mobility, or their ankle mobility, one, we're going to raise their ankles so that they can squat full depth. But if their hip mobility is an issue, then I would just have them squat to the depth that they can while maintaining a neutral or a flat spine so that we can still progressively load them. You're

Philip Pape 31:35

obviously an expert in all of this. So I want to, I wanted to I knew it wouldn't be a trick question, even though I province demand ahead of time when thrown into questions. And I knew it wouldn't be because she knows what she's talking about. So there you go, I love it. What would you say the value is of having this assessment versus just, this is kind of a rhetorical question at this point, versus just jumping right into like a training program or nutrition, you know, template or something like that.

Amanda Cooper 32:01

Yeah, totally. So I think the first thing is it lessens your risk of injury, you know, having a plan curated for you takes into account all of your potential limitations, as well as current limitations. And then it's also going to incorporate things to improve those things. So if you don't have the ability to reach overhead, we're gonna work on that so that you can. And then on top of that, lessening the risk of injury I think, is really huge. And that's probably because I come from a chiropractic clinic, gym background, but 90%, if not, all of the clients that I see have some kind of history with low back pain, shoulder pain, knee pain, you name it, or they've tried beach body or some other template program and gotten hurt doing it. And that's because they've had either a little instruction on how to properly do the exercise, or they have some underlying mobility issue they didn't know about, or core stability issue. You know, we work with a lot of postpartum women. And usually, you need a decent amount of time postpartum to really regain your core strength. So there's so many things that really influence how a program should be laid out, depending on you and your body. Really.

Philip Pape 33:23

Yeah, I think that's great, because you do hear a lot of people who jump into something and, you know, kudos for people to people for taking action and wanting to improve their health. But there are some complexities here, and there's individualistic things to think about, especially if you're in your 30s 40s 50s. And you've had many years to experiment and beat yourself up with maybe the wrong movements over the years, as I can attest personally. Yeah, I'm talking about my heartstrings with the overhead the constant overhead press, you know, mentions because that's like my favorite movement, so. So for everyone who's been listening, everyone who's listening who has been frustrated or spinning their wheels, or they're struggling to make progress, and they want to get motivated right now, you know, they're listening to this. They're in their car, in the gym, maybe between sets, whatever. They want to get motivated and start improving their health and physique. What's an easy way to do that? How should they start?

Amanda Cooper 34:18

Keep it simple. I think, you know, even myself and what we do, we can really overcomplicate things and tell you, you know, you need a curated plan and all of these specifics. And while there's a lot of value in that, I think moving, getting your body moving is better than nothing. And like I said, Keep It Simple squat, deadlift, overhead press, do the basic movements and progress that over time, don't work through injury don't work through pain, and you will absolutely see In Progress, even if it's not as curated or individualized to your needs, you will still be moving the needle forward in the right direction.

Philip Pape 35:10

Cool. Yeah, I like how you said you said keep it simple move. And then, as part of keeping it simple doing squat deadlift and press, I really appreciate that, Amanda, because, you know, people make excuses like, Oh, these are so complicated and what, but they're so fundamental movements, and we'll go so far and everything you do so awesome. All right. I like to ask this of all my guests, just in case you've been listening to my podcast, maybe not. What one question Do you wish I had asked, and what is your answer?

Amanda Cooper 35:39

Yeah, well, I think, you know, I have two in mind. But I think one we answered really well, and that was, you know, why you shouldn't follow your favorite fits those workout. And, one, that's because usually, the workouts that you see online are meant to get attention. They're not the actual workouts that got that person, their body, and they're not curated to your needs, and not having a plan laid out in front of you. So just following YouTube workouts, your favorite fits Bo's workouts, it's going to pretty easily lead to burnout, because you don't have structure. So it's gonna be really easy to, you know, fall off the wagon, because of that lack of structure. And then the other question I brought you to, was why we why we don't start most people with a barbell in our program. Because I know, there's two very clear ends of the spectrum. There's the very pro barbell barbell every movement, you know, squat deadlift, overhead, press that end, and then you have the complete anti barbell end of the spectrum. And I think I come from more of that end of the spectrum because of my background. But that's not where I sit in my philosophy with my clients, I think I sit somewhere right in the middle. But most of our clients would think it comes back to that gym intimidation, the idea of picking up a barbell, or dropping a barbell I've had clients tell me just that sound is like intimidating to them. So taking that into account, and then taking into account their their mobility and the way that their body moves. Most of the time, we don't start with a barbell deadlift and a barbell back squat or front squat, or a barbell overhead press, we start with more simple like, Well, I think compound movements are simple. They're still intimidating for a lot of people. So we try and bring it back to their needs, psychologically, and their needs physically. So maybe, you know, I need to take into account that Susie doesn't have a bench right next to the squat rack. So I need to pair two exercises together that she can do in one corner of the gym and not feel like she asked to walk around because that's overwhelming for her. So that's part of the reason we don't include a lot of barbell movements when people are just getting started.

Philip Pape 38:21

I mean, it makes total sense. It's consistent with what you said earlier about capability and capacity and meeting people where they're at. And the fact that you are there for them as a coach means you can walk them through that process and step them up to it and get them comfortable. Bit by bit until before you know it, they'll probably tell me if I'm wrong, they'd probably like asking to go into the barbell in some cases.

Amanda Cooper 38:44

Yeah, the goal is definitely to get them there.

Philip Pape 38:48

Yeah, absolutely. And that that's the way to do it. So I really appreciate everything we've gone over today, I've learned quite a few things and ways to frame things myself. I always like to take something out personally. And then the listeners, I'm sure got a ton of value from this episode. So where can listeners learn more about you and your work?

Amanda Cooper 39:08

Yeah, so probably the best place to connect with me and our coaching crew is our free Facebook community, which is ambitious women's fitness secrets. And inside there we've got honestly a ton of free resources but specifically to what we talked about today, you know, we have a Beginner's Guide To Strength Training, if you're feeling intimidated and need that, like extra support. We even include all of the videos on how to do everything so you can go into the gym competently and set up to squat or set up to deadlift.

Philip Pape 39:47

Awesome. So Beginner's Guide To Strength Training, and all the other secrets behind the ambitious women's secrets. The Women's secret fitness, fitness secrets group and Yeah. And I'll include all those links in the show notes so listeners can find you. So Amanda, thank you so much for coming on the show. Yeah,

Amanda Cooper 40:09

absolutely. Thank you for having me.

Philip Pape 40:13

Philip Pape 4/14/23 Philip Pape 4/14/23

Ep 61: How to Periodize Your Training for Peak Performance with Steven Benedict

Today’s guest has encountered every reason to NOT race. From abandonment to abuse, family deceptions, and other distressing events, Steven faced it all and managed to rise. It's amazing that despite everything he went through, he was able to focus and excel at his sport. Tune in and get a behind-the-scenes look at how a professional track and field athlete and Olympic Qualifier’s workout is periodized for peak performance.

Today’s guest has encountered every reason to NOT race. From abandonment to abuse, family deceptions, and other distressing events, Steven Benedict faced it all and managed to rise. It's amazing that despite everything he went through, he was able to focus and excel at his sport.

Steven starts off by sharing his backstory. He then discusses periodization, productional force strength, avoiding fatigue, programming deloads, and more. He shares how he programs and individualizes his workouts and his recommendations on how others can program theirs. Steven also talks about nutrition for athletes and non-athletes.

Steven’s rules for running the race translate to almost every industry, person, and circumstance—and his story is a reminder to all who hear it that so long as you still have breath in your lungs, your race can still be won.

Tune in and get a behind-the-scenes look at how a professional track and field athlete and Olympic Qualifier’s workout is periodized for peak performance.

__________
Schedule your FREE 30-minute Nutrition Momentum Call with Philip here:
__________

Today you’ll learn all about:

[1:56] Steven's backstory
[5:16] Periodization and why athletes use it
[12:35] Progressive volume and individualized programming
[16:07] The athletes that Steven works with and what he helps them with
[17:58] Productional force strength
[19:55] Is it easier to make yourself stronger, than to make yourself lighter?
[21:50] Periodization schemes
[27:58] Tony shares what he likes about Philip and the Wits & Weights community
[29:18] Big lifts for the average lifestyle person who wants to be a better/faster sprinter
[34:13] Avoiding fatigue and overtraining
[37:16] Programming deloads or rest days
[39:44] Nutrition, carb loading and others
[47:22] Hardship in the gym and how it translates into having a stronger mind
[51:29] What excites Steven for the future
[52:25] How to connect with Steven
[53:34] Outro

Episode resources:

Website: www.Stevieyb.com
Instagram: @stevieyb22
Youtube channel: @stevenbenedict879

IG: @witsandweights
Email: philip@witsandweights.com

🥩 Download your Free Ultimate Macros Guide and 50 High-Protein Recipes here

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Transcript

Steven Benedict 00:00

periodization and periodization for people as they should understand where their base is, and then where their tail end is where they want to be in whatever six months 12 months or whatever, and work their way backwards from that.

Philip Pape 00:14

Steven Benedict 02:09

I was on the football field football was pretty dominant for my life as well as some other sports early on. My first sport ever being martial arts, I did 10 years of judo. And that kind of laid the discipline and the foundational aspects of being able to translate into other sports at a high level. But like I said, the track and field coach saw me on the football field when I was a freshman approached my parents, my parents who wanted me to try something different and something new and really wasn't on my radar. And so reluctantly, I jumped in there for my winter season and wound up wound up winning lean county championships as a freshman and it just kind of built up over time. And I really honed in and liked the aspect in the sport that is a one on one sport, it's pretty much you against the clock, and whatever you put into it, you get back from it, you know, obviously, you know, it's a lot different from let's say baseball, football, basketball. Whereas these team Reliance sports, you know, here, it's you running your race, you're in your lane, of course, there's other athletes that are on the track with you, but you're really focusing on what your race model is compared to the other athletes. And if you lose that focus, and you start running their race, automatically, you're putting yourself in the red already. So

Steven Benedict 03:35

that's kind of like the early on stages and and I was able to run in some of the world's most prestigious races across the board from Penn relays, while I was in high school to States and the international races to diamond league REITs and, and then go on to things like Olympic trials and do and then the bigger platform. So it's been a big roller coaster, you know, obviously with not only with my athletic career, but then also my story background, which was, you know, all over the place of things, people see it as well. He's an athlete, he's got it all together, and that was far from it. So I got a lot of loss and a lot of abandonment, you know, growing up through the foster care system and then losing my adopted parents. So there's been quite a bit that have taught me not only through my sports, but also in life, about resiliency and patience and due diligence, and really just focusing and keeping my eye on the prize and, you know, keeping good people around me coaches. And, you know, to my current position today we're on at the tail end of my career and training for my last Olympic Games, which will be Paris and and then I'll shift into and move into something else that will be in correlation to all the knowledge and the hours and Uh, you know, the training aspects that I have been able to put in in this time and try to benefit and bring value to other people's lives.

Philip Pape 05:08

Awesome. So there's a lot there, there's definitely a lot of paths we can take. What what one of the things that sticks out is me is the parallels that you talk about between the the discipline and the practice and the the way that you approach specifically that sport of running, in that you're really racing against yourself, you're competing against yourself, even though you compete against others, at some point, you can't focus on that, it actually reminded me of lifting in a way, right, because I don't know much about running, never have I tried running when I was younger, it's just not not my thing. But I think we can learn a lot from the sport and what you said, of like, if you're a power lifter, or lifter, you can't focus on other people's numbers, because it's really irrelevant to your own performance. So maybe we get into that a little bit more and talk about performance, and then talk about periodization as a model for doing that, because I think there's a lot of relevance there. So we want to start with, you know, what you mean by periodization? Maybe, and why athletes or lifestyle trainees would use it?

Steven Benedict 06:08

Yeah, I think, you know, well, first and foremost, periodization, it is very relevant to the period in which you are in your life, and how that translates to your your, whether it be lifting or your, your specific kind of goal setting or specific kind of movement or modalities that you're doing, you know, whether it be lifting, whether it be running, whether it be, you know, on the field playing soccer, you know, we only see so me putting my cell phone on the chopping block is, we only see for us, you know, since track and field is not as marketed in this in the States, you only really see like the World Championships, where you see the Olympics, every four years, every two and a half years, something like that, depending on the big meats, you don't see what goes on behind, and you don't really see all of the constant due diligence that these athletes are putting in, and the coaches in order to have our peak at those games, but also at the championships are so you know, so in specific for me, like, you know, September, usually September we start and it's just base work, you know, it's just really putting our body back into movement flow and, and learning how to run again, and, you know, kind of kind of trying to pick up where our previous season ended, and implement that early in the season. So that we're kind of moving forward, we're not starting back to yours, you know, we're starting where we left off after our break. So we have the rest, we have that whole aspect of recovery, that downtime, that disconnect, and then we plug back in, kind of recharging our batteries, but our periodization and periodization for people as they should understand where their base is. And then And then where their tail end is where they want to be in whatever, six months, 12 months or whatever, and work their way back backwards from that.

Philip Pape 08:12

Yeah, yeah. And I was gonna ask about that, you know, it seems like you want to reverse engineer from an event or a peak. I mean, we do that with nutritional periodization as well, right? You have a goal, you work back from there, whether it's lose weight, or build muscle or whatever. So what about how does specificity and adaptation play into that right into how you periodized someone's programming or that that phase, knowing that you have this skill that you have to develop, but you also have other things that support that like strength, power, speed, and so on. Yeah,

Steven Benedict 08:42

of course. First, first and foremost foundational aspects, you know, if we left off on a good note, or we're going in and they're coming in from scratch one I need to know what their predisposed situations were any of their if they have any ailments or anything like that. Any previous injuries or surgeries or anything that has been chronic or ongoing, so that we can really address those because they probably haven't gone away. They're probably just hibernating right now until things start to build up and we start adding on weight or we start pushing the pace on things or anything like that. So

Philip Pape 09:24

is that what I have a hibernating shoulder? Yeah, that's that's the word. Okay. Okay. Well, however

Steven Benedict 09:31

name shoulder I've had, you know, hibernating Achilles, I've had issues and it wasn't really until I stepped back and really addressed those things in back. Okay, well, this has been chronic and it's been going on for look like let's say, I'm good through the beginning phases of my training where the foundational aspects is great. And then I move on into kind of like, the strength and power development but when I get into speed stuff that's when things start to kind of show up, right, and when the post kind of wear and tear thing show up, but as for other people, it's just kind of the same thing as, as we push the needle, things are to show up and, and your body starts to show it's kind of true colors, right? It starts to become transparent, and transparency with clients and, and also, when I work with anybody is super vital on you know, I don't need you to be a superstar, you're not trying to impress me, I've already performed at a high level. So that's it, there's no kind of ego aspect here. But, you know, in that space is understanding Foundation, understanding, patience, understanding the little things of accumulation into the bigger things like movement correction, and understanding like so for runners, it's, it's a lot of feet issues that contribute to going up there to the, the, the chain of things through their knees, through the hamstrings, through their hips, all the way up through their scapular and stuff. So and I think a lot of runners don't understand that, as you know, we start from the bottom of the foundation work up, not where the point of kind of hurting or the kind of, you know, debilitation is, so, you know, there's a lot of writing down notes, notes, taking and building relationship and rapport with people, whether you know, the athlete or the weekend warrior, anything, understanding that at the beginning, like this is a long term game, just use it as a long term gain and understanding that each phase is a phase for the coinciding phases to come. So that's, you know, part of the periodization thing, and that foundational piece is super important. For for any athlete, I mean, for our track and field athletes, it's, it's vital. If our, if our, if our preseason is terrible, it's going to show up, come around March, march ish. When we start getting into spikes, and we start pushing and start pushing the paces a bit, if we haven't done the rehab stuff, and the the foundational strength stuff, we're gonna blow we'll so to say.

Philip Pape 12:28

So in this in this preseason is there, I mean, a lot of what you're telling me sounds like, definitely, if you had a coach, they're going to be able to individualize and understand the subtleties with you, and bring their fresh pair of eyes and expertise to it. But even if somebody's wanting to do this on their own, who's maybe it's the first time and they're not at that elite level? Is there? Is there a model that we follow in the preseason of a certain stacked level of things to focus on like, okay, take take two or three weeks and go through this checklist, and make sure you can get out of it here, you know, this level of health or performance? And then that tells you ready to go to the next phase? is can it be simplified to that level? Like, hey, maybe you could write a book about it?

Steven Benedict 13:10

Yeah, I think, um, you know, I think in layman's terms in simple ways, you know, quantity to quality type of mind frame, yes, you know, there's a lot of volume early on, but it's not, it's, it's progressive volume, it's not a, let's dump the dump truck on you all, all in one phase, and then then you're worth nothing, come the next month or the next, you know, the next four weeks after the first four weeks as far as program design and kind of progression in that one foundational strength and, and then strength, endurance, strength, power, and then you know, quality, which is whether it be speed reps or anything on that sense. So there's like, kind of like four building blocks, they're dependable on the over encompassing goal, or the, the athlete in or the subject in question. But, you know, overall wise, you know, it's, it's really a foundational piece and building out the spaces of, you know, like those blocks and, and not rushing those blocks. They could be for one person that that block could be four weeks, or the other person, it could be six to eight weeks, depending on their learning curve. And you know, how much they really need to know. I am usually in the six to eight weeks span of people and then the time and, and to give them that adaptation period of their body to understand movement. And then, you know, in the beginning, I recommend somebody to have somebody alongside them at all times, or at least accountability wise, if they're new to space, justice. They can learn, right? It's like going to school. For me, my coaches are invaluable, right, I need the eyes on me, because I can't see myself run. But I'm very good at making adjustments with cues given to me. And that becomes body awareness and that, you know, conversational aspects of understanding, you know, how the coach can relate to their athlete, and how they can translate what the coach is telling them into movement, or mindset, kind of the the Brain Body connectivity aspect of things.

Philip Pape 15:35

Yeah. And I think that's important, what you're saying to people listening, because I hear a lot of the time, you know, I'll get a coach when I need it, or when I need to fix something or whatever. And you're like, just get the coach from the beginning, because you're gonna cut out months or years of mistakes and poor habit forming. And I've experienced that personally, when, you know, my squat was terrible for years. And then I got a coach and in one day, you know, if he helped me fix things, let's So one question I have is you work exclusively with runners and endurance athletes?

Steven Benedict 16:04

No, not not, not specifically. I mean, sprinters, yes. But I mean, I've handled athletes across the board, from NFL players, to soccer players, to martial artists. So mine is more of kind of the over. What I like to what I like to see is one I know and I believe that sprinters are an overall package of an athlete, right, you can take them and pretty much because of their based on what they've done through power and strength and explosiveness and movement, you can take them and plant them in any other sport, all they would have to do is learn the modalities of that sport.

Philip Pape 16:49

Do you mean the skills of that sport basically skills of

Steven Benedict 16:51

that sport, whether it be soccer, you know, be becoming more pliable in and versatile in their dribbling, football, you know, obviously, being able to take a hit and, you know, a lateral and vertical movement. So it's like, learning those aspects. But as far as the core basic things of power, strength, explosiveness, that translates to pretty much every sport that's needed, in some way, shape, or form. And so, it not only runners, but I've done a lot of corrective exercise things, strength and conditioning, and then also work through the chain of rehab and stuff, too. So overall, overall aspects. But I would say my expertise from my practical knowledge is probably through the modalities of running and, and sprinting. And

Philip Pape 17:43

the Yeah, it's good, good to know, to put it in context. And then also, as we talk about periodization, what exactly we're talking about, because we could get very narrow and say, you know, periodization, for a powerlifting meet, or periodization, for an athlete overall. But even there's general principles. So would you agree that, for example, you talked about strength, power, endurance, all of these attributes? Is strength of foundation is straight? I don't wanna say the most important, but is it the foundation of all of these?

Steven Benedict 18:10

Um, it depends on what type of strength we're talking about, right? Are we talking about like power, strength? Or brute strength? Are we talking about production of force? Strength? Yeah, yeah, production of force strength? I would, I would say, yes, across the board, is being able to utilize how much force we're applying in order to use the strength that we build in the gym, in real in real life situations. Right. And I think a lot of the times, you know, you have power lifters, but those even power lifters, I know, you know, I've had, you know, several friends that were very prolific in powerlifting. And you can take those guys and put them on the track, and they'll be able to run pretty damn well, if they just learned the mechanics a little bit better, you know, cycling and, and force production in that. So I think it's utilizing the things that we its capabilities of being able to utilize strength and functional ways. So it's like functional power sharing, I think that's kind of like what people are seeking right now, in overall health wise and trying to be functional in life, right, but strong functional, and they get the misconception of I'm going to be in the gym, and I'm going to be this house. And I'm going to turn into you know, this big body builder. And it's like, you don't have, you know, the DNA to do that. And it's going to take years and years and years and years to even, you know, build up that type of density.

Philip Pape 19:45

Absolutely, yeah, absolutely. And even even when I've worked a few with a few nutrition clients who are endurance athletes, the question always came up of, you know, the focus is always on the running and very little put into the strength. You And hey, I need to lose lose weight. So I'm faster. And then the question I have is why don't we just spend a little time getting stronger when that make a massive improvement? Because to me, it's I think, in terms of math, right, you know, strength to weight ratio, isn't it easier to make yourself a lot stronger than to make yourself a lot lighter? I mean, what are your thoughts on that?

Steven Benedict 20:17

Yeah, and I think, for me particular A, it's in the space of, you know, track and field sprinters. It's always, you know, it is a strength and it switches from the frame to power light frame powerful, what you have to build that power early in the season, and then switch gears and worry about having a light frame, because you've already built that base and that internal engine of things. So I do agree that yes, we need the internal engine before we go out and start trying to hit the gas on anything. But, and I also think that you know that that strength piece is super important for healing situations and strengthening other elements around ligaments and joints, and just overall body and bone density, which a lot of people lose, because they don't like to lift and they're afraid of lifting because of the, you know, like we said do because of the, you know, the misconceptions around it,

Philip Pape 21:29

you know, you're speaking my language. Because even in the context of people just wanting to get fit and lose weight, oftentimes a conversation is, well, you can't you can't reveal muscle, you can't get lean, if it's if the muscles not there, if the strength and the muscle are there. And by the way, being stronger is going to improve all these other issues you may be having. So it kind of translates to all of these areas. What about periodization schemes? So again, I think in terms of lifting of things like simple linear progression to undulating and black, you know, these non traditional types of periodization schemes for lifting Do you have those kinds of models in the world? We're talking about here?

Steven Benedict 22:07

Yeah, um, as far as the schemes and stuff, I mean, and again, you know, it really depends on the subject. So I'm pulling from my own pages of personal aspects, because we don't have a subject right now. But, you know, for us, it is heavy volume, like right now I'm in the gym twice a week, and then on the on the track the other probably four days out of the week. So it's a six day model right now. And we're really focusing on so some of the movements and the scheme aspects or, you know, we work on our own, we work off of our own bodyweight, right. So for our squats, and things like that, it'll be you know, starting maybe like 55% of our body weight, and then we're working our way up that, you know, building up those areas, building up the areas that are most beneficial to us, and moving horizontally down the track, vertically. So a lot of our posterior chain is viable to us. And then important to us. So hamstrings, hips, hip flexors, things like that, lower extremities, our ankles, and our Achilles and, you know, foot strength, getting them as hard as possible. But the schemes that we're working on is, you know, roughly around a four to six week space, that fifth week is a test week. And then the sixth week is kind of a taper down week where we're not doing any weights, and we're on the track. And we'll kind of try to do a race model of kind of our body in that.

Philip Pape 23:50

When you say test week test, test, testing, your lifts are testing your your skill based on the strength. Yeah,

Steven Benedict 23:56

yeah, we're testing both. So we'll do best at the beginning of the week, like on a Monday, and then come back on a Thursday or Friday, with light flush sessions in the in the middle of the week, and come back and run, I don't know maybe like a split 400 or, you know, or a hot 300 and just push to see where our bases that come of all the strength that we've built up and the modalities that we built up in there and like, you know, all the different drills and things that we're incorporating. So it's pretty technical on the back end, and, and my coaches are overseas right now. So we converse on an app, and all of the athletes are on that. So they actually write out our programs and we go through that and then we can converse in there if we have any questions and they track things like our heart rate, and I wear an aura ring to DPS, so I'm trying to get pretty accurate on the numbers and you know, burning calories on a daily basis to know what I have to put back in. But Uh, I mean, again, it's, it's, it's really subject to subject matter. And

Philip Pape 25:06

it is, but I'm so cute. I was such a nerd about this stuff. And like, it's my podcast, I like to ask whatever I want. And so I don't know. And I don't know if the listeners, you know, tune me out sometimes, but that's what I like. So I like to dig into that just a little you said percentage of your body weight. But if somebody's a lot stronger than another athlete, are they? Are they using a higher starting percentage of their body weight? Or how does that work?

Steven Benedict 25:28

Um, no, not at the beginning at the beginning, because, you know, we're all I think at the beginning, we're all coming in with a clean slate. And because we're coming off of rest period, so we're not trying to push it. But then as, as that goes forward, the body weight aspect gets interchange with kind of one rep max percentages, yeah, percentages, and things like that. So we start interchanging plugs, and putting them in so then we start to work our way. So then it's like one rep max at 55% 75% 80%. I don't think we ever really go 100%.

Philip Pape 26:12

So you never test the one room. It's like an estimate,

Steven Benedict 26:15

yet estimated, but the only time that will test is on that fifth week.

Philip Pape 26:20

Okay, so So I was wondering, you test the winner? Yeah,

Steven Benedict 26:23

yeah, we'll test it there and just kind of get a big push in there. And only on of our, our big movements are big complex movements, you know, whether, you know, it'd be full squat or quarter squat, usually quarter squats are are more beneficial for sprinters, you know, we're just focusing on kind of that push an explosion out of the blocks. So they're more beneficial for us on the back end, and things like a hex bar deadlift, and then max, vert Max, and just being pushed off the ground. So you know, sports specific things in my space, and then and then for other athletes, depending on their stuff. So like some of the athletes that I've done, their combines for, for the NFL, obviously, it's, you know, geared towards

Philip Pape 27:14

what another thing is 40,

Steven Benedict 27:17

you know, standing long, you know, stretching and stuff like that. But even in that we I really pick up the spaces in which I feel we pick up the top three, because well, that's where they'll gain the most points in and they'll gain the most knowledge, the most kind of ahead of the curve pushing if they can be good in three areas of that test. So it's usually like the 40 the bench, and a vert Max.

27:46

My name is Tony from a strength flipped or my 40s Thank you to Phil in his Wits, & Weights community for helping me learn more about nutrition and how to implement better ideas into my strength training. Phil has a very, very good understanding of macros, and chemical compounds and hormones and all that and he's continuously learning. And that's what I like about Phil, he's got a great sense of humor. He's very relaxed, very easy to talk to. One of the greatest things about Phil, in my view is that he practices what he preaches. He also works out with barbells. He trains heavy, not as heavy as me, but he trains heavy. So if you talk with him about getting in better shape, eating better, he's probably going to give you some good advice. And I would strongly recommend you talk with him and we'll help you out. Thanks.

Philip Pape 28:30

Okay, yeah, see some of those guys pounding up to 20 fives for you know for sure, whatever. What. So another question came to mind about the lifts itself. You mentioned like quarter squats. So now I'm interested in what kind of lifts are really effective for sprinters. And then also how a sprinter sprinter straining would compare to like a marathon runners training. You know, and just as a side tangent, there was just a study that came out comparing half squats and full squats for which which muscles are the most not not activation, right? Because sometimes that can be misleading, but actual development. And you know, some things were obvious, like full squats, work the glutes more, but like half squats, work the quads more. So it's interesting, you mentioned that what are some of the big lifts for like an average lifestyle person listening who wants to be a better and faster sprinter?

Steven Benedict 29:20

So I would, if you're, I mean, if they're not competing, and they're just looking to kind of like run fly fast or in any space, one for us, it's all posterior chain. Male quads are great. But if you look at science and if you look at some of the past results of some of the best sprinters across the board, you know, the guys with very deep and developed hamstrings are guys that are able to push down the track and get and get out of the blocks a lot quicker and have more cycle and ground impact on through their stride. So So I'm a big believer in developing the posterior chain a lot, so hamstrings, glutes, and then anything that will help pull horizontally out of blocks so hip flexors, you know, and then the lower extremities of my ankles and calf raises and, and Achilles areas, but then also being able to translate some of that stuff onto the field. So barefoot running, squatting barefoot, you know, really getting those, those cushions that divide us from feeling what the floor looks like in actual pushing, and actual producing force. We do a lot of that, and I take a lot of that stuff out.

Philip Pape 30:44

Like do you squat shoes? Or not? I

Steven Benedict 30:46

don't I use I do have them. I do have them. But I rather squat in my socks and barefoot Got it? Got it. Yeah, I just feel like, I feel like I get more of I can feel the chain, I can feel my, the way I'm pushing. And I'm from pushing flat through the, the flat part of the foot and utilizing every chain of the back or every muscle throughout the chain up the back or there. Or if I'm shifting, I can feel my base a lot better. When I'm when I'm flexing.

Philip Pape 31:17

Yep. So, so. So something like hamstrings, right? For me, it comes to mind would be like RDLs or good mornings or I mean bodybuilding movements like a leg curl or maybe you know, lat leader lateral movements like step ups or reverse lunges or semi what what would you say are the, like top two or three for the average person to work on?

Steven Benedict 31:38

Without a doubt? Definitely Single Leg RDL single rails. I'm a huge lover and believer of Nordic hamstrings. Oh, yeah. Nordics are like, a necessity for any of that type of program, not only for building out density and strength and hamstrings, but also helping out with rehab of, you know, pre kind of rehab of things, you know, and it stretches out the hamstrings and the the insertions on the top of the hamstring. So you keep them nice and long. Because you're doing a lot of hamstring work, especially hamstring curls and stuff like that. A hamstring gets a lot of bunching up, so to say in those areas. So it helps to keep them long and flexible.

Philip Pape 32:28

So hold on on that movement. How do you do? How do you like to do them? Like the bar on the rack? Or a special machine?

Steven Benedict 32:34

Yeah, no, I have, I usually do with a bar on the rack, or if I can have somebody hold my, my my ankles and give me that extra pressure. But I usually do them on the bar on the rack. But also having a I'm a big believer in also having a variable squat program. So you know, one week, quarter squats twice a week, one week, full squats twice a week. And I think that helps out with the lack of adaptation, but it helps with you know, mobility in helping the body to understand the depths of squatting and able to produce more force at different levels.

Philip Pape 33:19

And what what squat is as low bar high bar, some front squats. Yeah,

Steven Benedict 33:23

um, so I mean, I do I do front squats, quarter squats and full squats. So front squats and so it'll be four front squats will be in my program pretty consistently. And then the other switching variable will be either quarter squats or full squats. So one of those interchange every other week.

Philip Pape 33:46

Okay. Are you doing them high? High bar or low bar?

Steven Benedict 33:50

Well, no, do low bar. Okay, cool.

Philip Pape 33:52

All right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay, cool. No people listening, you know, these are good, good ideas. The Nordic the Nordic camps, the Nordic curl is underrated, you know? Maybe not underrated, just not as well known. Right. And it's, it's cool that you mentioned that. So how do we, how do we avoid fatigue and overtraining? That's a big thing in my world, especially at work a lot of older folks. And that's, and I'm an older getting to be an older folk. And I know you know, your body gets a little more beat up as he as yours. Yeah,

Steven Benedict 34:22

yeah, I think you know, one is understanding recovery and knowing that that's a part of your training as well, that it's not just the hour, hour and a half, two hours that you're in the gym, whatever, you know, your program, you know, keeps you in there for but then understanding that once you go home or whatever you do post that is very important for the day's post that to come. And that includes things like rest and recovery and nutrition, and whatever else that you can get your hands on, you know, and then it becomes body awareness and always knowing your limits. Because obviously, as you as you get older, you're, you know, I put us in a space of like, we're all these batteries, right. And I don't know if you ever have seen like the Energizer batteries or anything that used to have that power strip on the thing and tells you how much is left in there. That's kind of like, that's kind of how I dictate what athletes are, or, you know, across the board, you know, or general purpose, you know, this is this is your boundary capabilities, this is how much you have in it, and you need to understand is, when you're getting to that halfway mark, is that, yes, we can do maintenance in that space, but also plugged back in, so that we can kind of hopefully try to stay within the 80 to 85% range throughout the week, instead of having 180 5%. Or to, and by Friday or Saturday, you know, you're tapped out and you have nothing left, we need to try to prolong our progression over the course of the week. And that made me to shift in, in what we're doing, we may need to take something out of the program, during the weeks, or we may need to take add something like a recovery day, like a flush day that is just re charging yourself. But that really becomes a space of understanding yourself, and being able to communicate that with your coach correctly. And saying like, hey, you know, and the coach needs to be aware, too, you know, they need to see that things are dropping off, that they're coming in fatigue, they're blown fumes and, and that their job is to get the most out of their athletes as much as possible, and not burn them out. Because it's their ego trip of things. So I think there's a fine line and balance. But the recovery piece is is a vital, vital, vital part to any any performance program.

Philip Pape 37:05

For sure. not pushing too hard. And like you said, by using biofeedback or being aware of yourself and communicating that What about do you program it in as part of periodization? You program in D loads? Or are you more I know, some people some coaches prefer to, to do it as they go right, like to only use a D load if needed, because you don't want to slow down the progress if the person is perfectly fine. What's your take on that?

Steven Benedict 37:27

Yeah, you know, I usually I usually implement at least the fourth week as a D load. Okay. So I'll go three weeks on for the fourth week is kind of a D load and a preparing for another four weeks post that I think that that's a pretty good model. Now. I, I believe that, you know, some of the younger athletes can go a little longer, you know, and but each athlete is different to you. You have to, like a lot of the new things will tax people very quickly. So that needs to be taken into account for as well. And sometimes, you know, you just need to implement it during those weeks to prolong past four weeks is like hey, you know, you do something like a scheme of two days, Monday, Tuesday on Wednesdays off and then there's a Friday on and then Saturday, Sunday off? Right? I think those three days off, and those four days on will help prolong things depending on how aggressive the program is, as well. So I think there's a lot of kind of Windows, you can throw in there. Sure. But I really like to go three weeks hard. The first two weeks are hard. And then that third week is kind of a build up week for that fourth week where that fourth week could be, you know, maybe one hard session on may come back,

Philip Pape 38:57

keep the intensity high of the volume low. Right? Yeah, it's cool. So So you're talking about the generally fixed D low programmed in, maybe if you're younger, you can go a little bit longer. You also mentioned even during the week, maybe undulating the volume, which speaks to me because I just I just switched from a four day kind of West Side programming where you're, you really don't ever take D loads because the concept is you're varying the big lifts constantly and you never quite get fatigued on any one lift. But it does catch up to you. And so I moved to now heavy light medium, so the middle of the week is a much lighter day than the other two. It kind of gives you that recovery. So it's pretty cool. I you know, people listening to take all that to heart from it so that they can beat it for the long game. What about nutrition? Things like I'm always fascinated with concepts like carb loading because I know the science keeps seems to keep changing. There's been all these complicated schemes about carb loading and it seems a science is like no, it's pretty simple. Just like ramp it up and then eat a ton of carbs for the event. But what Tell me about that,

Steven Benedict 39:57

yeah, gosh, contrition space, everybody's got, you know, one, this is a really, really touchy space for everybody because it's so it's so flooded with all these gurus of, hey, do this diet, do that diet and there's all these, you know plethora of diets out there. Now first and foremost, before you jump on any diet one, diets are interchangeable. And I think they have their place and their space at particular times depending on what your training needs are, and how, how high the volume is, right? I think a lot of the space in which diets are and you say you talk about carb loading? Well, what what period of training are you in like, so if I'm talking about carb loading, and, you know, perhaps it's my race season, and I have a race early later in the week, maybe some extra carbs to a midpoint in the week would be great if I'm racing on like a Friday, Saturday, but then I need to taper that off. Right? Because I don't want to go into a race heavy and feeling water retention or having a spill over. Yeah, and having, you know, gi problems now. So. So one, I would highly recommend one is getting at the beginning of the season, or the beginning of your program is getting a blood test, getting a panel done, understanding what blood type you are, and then trying to coincide your eating with what blood type you are. So you know, which is really not a lot of people go that route, it is a little more in integral of the all the inner workings of things, but understanding what type of blood you are and understanding how your insides work in what is most. Most your body will consume the best in performance wise, because you know, like, right. So everybody understands that if you're giving the same diet to somebody else, and you're eating, let's say, a bunch of carbs, and you feel sluggish, you're not, you're not producing and your body is metabolizing. Alright, well, obviously something in there isn't working for your system, or your DNA nutrition. So, you know, sitting down with industry, I'm not a nutritionist, so I don't even you know, I have nutritionists, for me, and the spaces of doing blood work first is really is really helped me out a lot. You know, I'm a meat eater, I need meat, I need the B vitamins. On the back end, I cannot do vegetarian or plant based. I do have plant based shakes that I do in the morning because I feel like they absorb well for me in the morning. But as far as recovery aspects of things, B vitamins, like buffalo burgers, and bison burgers, those really helped me to keep the inflammation down in my body from that space, and then you know, high protein like eggs and chicken and fish and stuff like that. So

Philip Pape 43:03

and optimal nutrition whey protein, right?

Steven Benedict 43:09

That's what I use. Yes, yeah.

Philip Pape 43:10

Oh, you did plant protein. Okay, yeah, I

Steven Benedict 43:13

do the plant protein with them. But then I also do, they do have little RTDs that I keep in my bag for post training that our way. So those are really eat, those are really easy for me to throw in. But, you know, it's really that's that's the end to is understanding your, your particular type of DNA and the way and what diet is going to coincide with your training, but also your metabolism as best as possible. Because in a lot of those spaces is that, you know, if you're eating the wrong things, it's going to slow your your metabolism down, and then you're gonna gain and then you're then you're gonna be pointing the finger at everybody. So

Philip Pape 43:50

yeah, yeah, first of all, you're making me hungry. It's almost dinnertime here. And bison burgers are. Agree. But yeah, I mean, the general principle, you know, people, people are always going to disagree on specific diets. And I'm a nutrition coach. I'm not a nutritionist, but I'm an addition coach. And for me, it's all about flexibility, because I want the client to have something that works for them. And that responds well, there's a guy I am friends with, and I was kind of working with him on the side and so Manny, you're really getting a lot of fat and not nearly enough carbs and you're doing all this lifting. And he's like, alright, let's let's try more carbs. He's like, I just cannot live on that many carbs. I can eat him. I'm sluggish. I don't feel good. Let me go back to high fat he did and he was fine. And it's like, everybody's different. There's no one size fits all. So that's good. I was just really curious about carb loading specifically, because what is it you know, Alan Aragon he writes the flexible dieting stuff. Oh, yeah. He like summarize the evidence on this just a few months ago on the carb loading and I was kind of blown away by how many, how many grams of carbs that you possibly could eat as an athlete, you know, and kind of reduce the protein going into an event. I was just curious. But like you said to me,

Steven Benedict 45:02

for me, I really like to keep my, my high calories and my carbs. So I'm roughly taking in about 3400 calories a day, right? Well, which is pretty high. And but my particular frame of the way I post my days is, I'll keep my, my high carbs and everything is when I'm going to utilize them right as as pre workout in the morning, and then post workout. And then I'll have 1/3 1/3 meal kind of mid day. And then as the day goes on, I taper off, and I don't have any carbs. And I'll do like salad and fish and things that absorb quicker. And then I try to cut off my eating no later than seven, you know, to just get my body into a fast a bit and, you know, to promote growth hormone to the body and stuff like that when I'm sleeping, so I can get that deep sleep. But that's what works for me. And that's where I feel the lightest. And that's where I feel like I'm gaining the most amount of could I eat all day? Sure, I could eat all day. I mean, I can go through probably two pizzas by myself, Oh, man.

Philip Pape 46:13

It's funny, because I'm right around 3500 calories myself, but I'm at the very end of the six month building phase, and I'm sick of it. I actually want to be on a diet. It's funny, people hear that. But, you know, the body fights itself, you know, wants to get back to some sort of balance. Right? And

Steven Benedict 46:32

the flexibility pieces is super important, like you said, you know, is is one, you know, it's a flexible balancing, you know, yes, there's a number there. And, yes, you need to know how much output you have in order to bring back the input in on a daily basis. But that number gets people really kind of blown out of the water, you know, when you say 3534 and calories, like, oh, no, I'm gonna get so fat. You need to work your way up to it. Like it's not like a lot tomorrow and have 3400 calories when you've only been eating 15 1600.

Philip Pape 47:06

Exactly, yeah, your body has to adapt up to that for sure. But all right, I do want to ask one mindset question, then a couple wrap up, if that's all right. So, you know, you overcame all these obstacles, by your late 20s. And you used all this to stay focused. So what are your thoughts about hardship in the gym, and how it translates, you know, the gym in the track, and how it translates to having a stronger mind stronger thoughts, you know, just like attacking life, because you went through that physical hardship.

Steven Benedict 47:39

I think hardship builds resilience, and then also exposes us to figuring out solutions internally, that will show up externally. And what I mean by that a lot of times is one, you have to understand that there's not going to be a perfect, you're not going to have a perfect day ever. And you're not going to have consent, you can have consistency. But even in that consistency, you're still going to have pitfalls. And I think by having those peaks and valleys, and in my own life, they've helped me to translate to a lot what I've done in sports, and also to let go of things and not to be so emotional, on, on the failures. And and really, I call it kind of celebrating the little wins and being a gold digger. And what I mean by that is just, you know, in every situation, there's there's a silver lining, right? Like, there's something that did go well, even if it's the most miniscule piece, something did go well. And you're like, hey, you know what, that one? Well, well, this went terribly. But this went well. And I think that's a that's a shift in which, you know, it's very, it's very hard to come by, and it's very hard to focus on because our brain wants to focus on the negative, and it wants to pull in all the things that went wrong. While we know that there's a win there. And we let that space kind of, we let that space just sit to the side. And we don't celebrate that enough. Like even even if we get promotions, even if we get a PR or anything like that. It's it's in that moment. And it's like, hey, great. Let's move on to the next one. Where, what how can I run faster? How can I lift heavier, right? Like you don't, we don't live in that space enough. And I've really kind of tried to focus on that space and develop that type of mindset of whatever happened yesterday happened yesterday, and I'll leave it there. Now. Today's a new day. I have a new platform, a new canvas to put forth a better a better foot and also a better effort. So every time I'm on the track, I'm trying to to push the pace, right? I was like, yes, that's great. And I think if we get into that space of how can we push the pace? How can we become better on a daily basis? We force our bodies to put our best foot in our best efforts. And that shows up, I think it shows up.

Philip Pape 50:18

Yeah, no, I like that. Celebrating small wins, pushing yourself reset resetting each day. And even what resonated with me is the idea that if you can celebrate those wins the next time you struggle with that same thing. And recall that you have the win. It can kind of push you through like me, it could be something as simple practical as you're working on a lift, and you do it really well, one day, and the next day, it just feels like trash. Well, you did it well, the day before. So you there's something has changed. And that's okay, let's let's find it and fix it and move forward.

Steven Benedict 50:47

Right? It's sort of doing reflection right now, like I could. And that's a huge thing, too, is like looking back six months before to where you are now. Like a I remember six months, I couldn't even lift this off the ground. And now I'm lifting what, two, three plates off the ground. So like that, in a sense is like, wow, you know, I need to take hold of that.

Philip Pape 51:10

It's probably way more than two and three plates for you. But no, I'm just kidding. I'm just kidding. So So I like to ask this question of all guests. And that is, what one question Did you wish I'd asked? And what's your answer?

Steven Benedict 51:25

You wish I've asked. Um, I think one of the one questions that you I wish you would ask is What am I? What am I excited about for the future?

Philip Pape 51:39

Okay, what are you excited about for the future?

Steven Benedict 51:41

The things I'm most excited about for futures, one, transitioning into something new that that is going to benefit from the years of experience that I've had, and then also looking forward into new kind of like, home living have. I just got engaged. So congrats. I'm looking forward to having the married life and seeing what that's about. And, you know, just having a counterpart to walk things out with.

Philip Pape 52:13

Yeah, I personally can vouch for it. It's been a great experience for me. So welcome to the club. Cool, cool. All right. So last thing, where can listeners learn more about you and your work?

Steven Benedict 52:22

Yeah, definitely. So I have my new website is about to be launched. It's WWE dot Stevie b.com, ste vieyb.com. And it's going to be super interactive. All the things that I have coming up, it'd be a schedule there, whether the events or charities that I'm involved with, or, you know, races that I have come up, and then all of the other things that are developing on the back end of, you know, just trying to give as much as I've learned out,

Philip Pape 52:53

cool, so that's www.stvieyb.com. Correct. That's gonna make it a little bit tricky spelling. So make sure people know. And I'm going to, of course, include that in the show notes. Anyways, we're going to tap on it. And Steven, this has been a really cool experience and learning experience for me, because an area I don't get to talk a lot about, and you're obviously an expert in the area. So I'm grateful you came on the show. Thank you very much.

Steven Benedict 53:18

I appreciate you guys having me and I look forward to you know what the future holds for you guys.

Philip Pape 53:23

Awesome. Thanks so much. If you've been inspired by today's interview, and are ready to take action and build momentum on your health and fitness journey, just schedule a free 30 minute nutrition momentum call with me using the link in my show notes. I promise not to sell or pitch you on anything, but I will help you gain some perspective and guidance so we can get you on the right track toward looking and feeling your best

Philip Pape 4/11/23 Philip Pape 4/11/23

Ep 60: Strength and Programming for Maximum Gains at Any Age with Andy Baker

Today we’re examining the world of programming and coaching with my special guest, Andy Baker. We get into programming principles for lifters of different ages and experience levels, whether your goal is to improve strength, performance, or body composition, or just have fun but effective workouts. We also talk about Andy’s career as a coach, training principles and methods, and what he’s been up to lately.

If you don’t already know him, Andy Baker is a highly sought-after strength coach, personal trainer, competitive raw and drug-free powerlifter, and co-author of two best-selling books on strength training.

Andy’s books and programming changed my life when I finally figured things out and got my act together back in 2020 and did my first novice linear progression with Starting Strength. I’ve since run several of his programs, my favorite being The KSC Method for Power-Building, and I’ve been a group client of his Baker Barbell Club since 2021.

_________
👩‍💻 Schedue your FREE 30-minute Nutrition Momentum Call with Philip here.
________

Today you’ll learn all about:

[3:20] Why Andy specializes in barbell workouts
[9:49] Andy's friendship and collaboration with Mark Rippetoe
[13:54] Rewriting "Practical Programming" and which areas Andy covered
[18:17] His approach to programming
[22:04] Programming differences and mistakes of beginner to advanced lifters
[25:39] When NOT to follow the Starting Strength novice linear progression
[27:32] Benefits of strength training for older adults
[28:59] What you need to be a great coach
[34:20] Tendon and ligament health for older lifters
[43:08] Listening to your intuition when following a program
[48:25] Andy’s favorite training programs
[56:40] Andy’s current projects and what he’s working to improve
[57:56] How Andy’s beliefs or opinions have changed over the years, and new methods and trends in strength training
[1:08:50] Being consistent with eating better and making better food choices, and doing cardio
[1:14:09] What helped make Andy the kind of coach he is today
[1:18:33] How to find Andy

Episode resources:

👩‍💻 Schedule your FREE 30-minute Nutrition Momentum Call with Philip here.

💪 Need help optimizing your body composition? Check out Wits & Weights individualized, one-on-one nutrition coaching:
https://witsandweights.com/coaching

👉 If you want to learn more about lifting and nutrition, reach out to Philip:

IG: @witsandweights
Email: philip@witsandweights.com

🥩 Download your Free Ultimate Macros Guide and 50 High-Protein Recipes here

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Transcript

Andy Baker 00:00

Any type of training that you do is going to be better than if you're not, but the physic the physiology is still basically the same. And that was a big thing for a long time. They said, well, body parts splits don't work for, you know, natural guys natural guys need to do full body or upper lower, or that type of stuff. And that's not necessarily true.

Philip Pape 00:20

Welcome to the Wits & Weights podcast. I'm your host, Philip pape, and this twice a week podcast is dedicated to helping you achieve physical self mastery by getting stronger. Optimizing your nutrition and upgrading your body composition will uncover science backed strategies for movement, metabolism, muscle and mindset with a skeptical eye on the fitness industry, so you can look and feel your absolute best. Let's dive right in. Welcome to another episode of Wits & Weights. Today we're getting into programming and coaching with my special guest who's none other than Andy Baker. We'll get into programming principles for lifters of different ages and experience levels. Whether your goal is to improve strength, performance, body composition, or even just have fun but effective workouts. We're also talked to Andy's about Andy's career as a coach his opinions on training principles and methods and what he's been up to lately. So if you don't already know him, Andy Baker is a highly sought after strength coach, personal trainer competitive raw and drug free power lifter, and co author of two best selling books on strength training, that are also personal favorites of mine practical programming for strength training, affectionately called the great book that he wrote with Mark Rippetoe of starting strength, and the barbell prescription strength training for life after 40 with John Jonathan Sullivan, aka solely, and any host the baker barbell podcast, and he's books and programming basically changed my life back in 2020. When I finally figured things out, I finally got my act together and got into barbell training. And I did my first novice linear progression. And I've since run several of his programs. My favorite, I think is the KSC method for power building. So I'm gonna run again soon here. And I've been a group client of his online Baker barbell club since 2021. And he has almost two decades of dedicated experience as a strength coach and personal trainer. He's coached hundreds, if not 1000s of clients by now, ranging from high achieving adult fitness clients to elite athletes. And he's a former US Marine, a certified starting strength coach, and of course, the owner of Kingwood strength and conditioning, a private barbell based training facility in Texas, and event. It's a privilege to welcome you to the show. That was quite an introduction. I appreciate it. That's probably the that's probably the best and smoothest one ever. That was great. I appreciate it. Man. I am going for that now with every guest. I have you know you because because you deserve it, man. So thanks, I appreciate it. I'm happy to be here. Yeah, it's gonna be fun. And you know, I always have like, 20 questions ready. And I usually get to three, and then we go off on much more valuable tangents from that. So let's hope that happens today. It's funny, because my podcast is like that, like, I'll script out like an outline for the episode. And it's like, you know, and I don't know why I do this, because I know it's not going to work. It'll be like 10 different topics I want to cover and like an hour goes by, and I've done like one and a half. And I'm like, Well, I guess we're gonna have a part two on this site, which is awesome. You know, that's, that's what we want from this. Yeah, this isn't this is not a highly produced show. This is real people here.

Philip Pape 03:16

Alright, so, you know, you've probably told your story a million times on podcasts, I want to kind of I want to narrow the focus for folks here. You've trained since you were young, you went to Texas a&m, to spend time in the Marines became a full time personal trainer and strength coach, you know, your gyms in the Houston area. Right? Yeah. And I guess what I'd like to ask you is between the experiences you had with CrossFit with the online forums with your gym, when did you realize that this style of training, and programming with barbells was the way to go?

Andy Baker 03:48

I'm pretty early on. I mean, even in my early days, before I, you know, back when I was a teenager and early 20s, and stuff when you're just, you know, you know, before I was coaching anybody or anything, you're just training yourself, I mean, there's always kind of a recognition of what works and what doesn't, you know, and so I always gravitated towards,

Andy Baker 04:10

you know, the basic barbell lifts and such, even when I was doing like, more bodybuilding type stuff, and that just came from, you know, having a background in that. Coming out of a sports world, that sort of thing. There was always a recognition that, you know, there was a lot of value to squats and bench presses and deadlifts and that sort of thing. Really, regardless of what the goal was, that that that was a great foundation. And so, you know, whatever style of training that I've that I've done, which going from like, you know, and this is you know, spans both me personally and with my clients going from like bodybuilding style training, to even experimenting with like CrossFit style training to coaching power lifters.

Andy Baker 04:48

You know, to just general fitness general population, types of people that the basic barbell lifts has always been at the core of everything that I've done and then the the changes are a lot Have it is just on the periphery, you know, kind of on the margin specific to that person and what their goals are. So, you know, a lot of it is just, I always tell people, like, once you've done squats, I mean, you kind of know, like, if we're a new person, that's never they, they've read all this stuff and experimented with different things. But like, once they've done squats and see the results from it, it's hard to like unconvinced somebody that squats isn't, say, a superior leg exercise. You know, it's like, you don't really have to convince people, they just you just kind of know. And so, you know, that's, that's kind of the way I've always felt about it that, you know, you just, you can watch the changes happen with people, you get people's anecdotal feedback, you know, from your own personal experience. You know, even if you're training purely for aesthetic goals. You know, most people still like to be strong, even if that's, you know, they're not necessarily numbers chasing or whatever. So, those have always kind of been, you know, at the core.

Philip Pape 05:54

Yeah, yeah, we'll explore that a bit. Because probably a lot of people listening in and myself included, it took me four decades before I could figure out what worked. And, and I wonder, you know, not that it came more naturally to but I did CrossFit for eight years. And I did a bunch of squats there, but they weren't super effective for me. And so the question is, you know, you said, people naturally find this out, but it almost seems like they have to come across the right approach and work in the white, right, for example, weight range with the right programming, and be consistent about it for a while to see those results to then feed that back into their mental loop of oh, this works. What do you think about that? Yeah, what's

Andy Baker 06:30

it like with CrossFit, because I've, you know, I've had a lot of experience working with CrossFitters. and such, and I've, I've paid attention to it, you know, from the early days, you know, in the in the good, the good CrossFit gyms, the good CrossFit coaches, had a recognition early on that like, the squatting and the bench pressing, and the overhead pressing, and the deadlift, and everything that was really probably, you know, 70 80% of the results that people were seeing the problem wasn't the lifts, it was the way they were programmed, or not programmed. And the fact that in the early days of CrossFit, it was all so everything was so randomized, that, you know, you might squat, you know, on March 1, and then not squat again, until May 8, or something, and it was just all it might be, it might be a five by five this time, but then the next time it was a one RM, and then the next time it was three sets of 10 or so. So it was a 10 by 10. Any Yeah, so. So it was just like, you know, it was it wasn't the, it wasn't the exercises, that were the problem, it was the way they were programmed. And I think a lot of the good CrossFit gyms now you look at them, and they all kind of operate fairly similarly, which is that they have a structured periodized, repeatable strength program, you know, built into their watch structure. So you know, Monday, we're going to squat every Monday, we're going to squat, and then we're going to follow that up with some sort of wide. And then Tuesday, we're going to benchpress. And we're going to program these lifts. And we're going to do them repeatedly. And we're going to progress them on some sort of with some sort of framework that makes sense. And then, you know, Friday is we're going to deadlift, every Friday, we're going to deadlift, and then we're going to do a lot and, and the wads complement what you're doing with the main barbell lift, and they, they don't interfere with what's coming the next day. And that's the difference between like, I think CrossFit. Now it versus CrossFit in the very early days was the idea that completely and totally random was better than programmed. And, you know, the reality is, is it's really not because if you're gonna if you've got squats on Tuesday, and you do you know, 400 meters of walking lunges on Monday. Well, I mean, that's just retarded. I mean, there's no, there's, there's no reason to do that. And so that, but that was kind of the really early days of CrossFit was this idea that good exercise needed to be completely and totally random, regardless of how little sense that it made, you know, doing high volume kettlebell swings, and then the next day do and heavy deadlifts, you know, that sort of thing. It's just it's not, and you know, the gyms that wanted to stay in business and not burnout and injure their clients kind of figure that out,

Philip Pape 09:07

figured it out. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, and what so the principles of what you're talking about here for anybody listening who may have not been able to find something that works for them is the progressive overload the programming the being consistent and developing something over time. And perhaps folks that go to the gym to Gen Gen pop that haven't found a gym like yours, or haven't found barbell lifts or just, it's random as well, just because they don't know what to do so. So that's really important. All right, I want to talk about I want to talk about ripp a little bit and your relationship with him because this probably comes up a lot. It's, you know, I listen to him all the time to and his podcast and just the guy's got a great personality. It's just just very unique. I understand. He was a mentor and friend of yours, you shared a similar vision, you know, this repeatable approach to lifting whether it was based on anecdotes like you said, working with tons of clients based on the biomechanics and bar path and all that good stuff. And then you collaborate on the third edition practical programming. How did you become friends with them? And how has that evolved to this day? Well,

Andy Baker 10:06

firstly, on the way I stumbled upon rip as a way a lot of people did was, you know, he became kind of known, let's say, nationally, or to the broader audience via CrossFit. And this was in the early days of CrossFit when I don't pay attention to CrossFit now, so I don't know how they how they do things. But in the early days, you know, they brought in all these subject matter experts to teach these, you know, kind of independent skills that were a part of the broader CrossFit regime. And so they had Mike Burgener was the Olympic weightlifting guy. They had like a jump rope guy, they had a kettlebell guy, you know, they had all these guys and rip they brought in was the basic barbell guy. So they brought him in to teach squats, bench overhead press and deadlifts. And I don't know how Glassman found out about and that somehow Glassman knew about his book, starting strength that he had written, but it was not, at the time, starting strength was not real widely known, like it is now but but CrossFit kind of introduced it to the world. So I became familiar with rip, via CrossFit. But at that time, CrossFit wasn't as big as it is now. And so, you know, at the time I was, I was in the transition of getting out of the Marine Corps, I still lived in California, Rick was from Texas, I was from Texas, I was moving back to Texas, I had started to train, I had started to train clients while I lived in California. And I had planned on, you know, starting a coaching practice, when I got back to Texas, and I was using a lot of that stuff from starting strength with the clients that I was coaching. And when I eventually opened my gym, and late 2007, early 2008, I was taking a lot, I was using starting strength, linear progression, you know, in some of the other programs, that early programs for practical programming, intermediate stuff, I was using a lot of that in a commercial setting, with real people, which you know, really, that's, that's kind of the only place that accounts as a coach, you have to be able to apply this stuff in the real world, or otherwise, it's just theory and looks good on paper, if it doesn't actually work with real people, then as a coach, it's it's not really a viable methodology. And at the time, rip was a moderator. On this obscure strength. This was before social media might have MySpace or something, but at the time, yeah, but like Facebook, and Instagram, and none of that stuff was what it is today wasn't even around really, I don't guess. But anyways, RIP, RIP was a moderator on this kind of obscure strength training forum, called strength mill dot, I think it was strength mill.net. And they're like, nobody went there. And so but I somehow found it. And I was communicating with rip on that forum. And he eventually bought strength mill.com, or strength mill dotnet, whatever it was, and it became starting strength.com The Forum, but yeah, the forums. And so I was communicating with him way back then about what I was doing at my gym, and Kingwood. And, you know, at the time, you know, there, I'm sure there were other coaches that were doing it too, I was just the only one that was doing it. And communicating back and forth with him relatively frequently, about what worked, what didn't work. You know, what I was struggling with. And it's like one of those things where, if you do it, if he's doing it with a few 100 people up in Wichita Falls, and then I started doing it with a few dozen, a few 100 people down in, in, in Houston. You know, if you do something with 10 people, you learn something, if you do something with 100 people, you learn more, if you do something with 1000 people, you learn a lot more. So it was just one of those things where the more people that are doing it, the more you learn about it. And so we're we're communicating a lot of this stuff backwards, back and forth, especially on like the intermediate type of programming and all that which hadn't been really all that fleshed out that well, in the earlier editions of practical programming. And so then, fast forward a few years later, and he find he wanted to do a rewrite of practical programming, basically, because we have learned a lot actually putting a lot of this stuff into practice. And he's like, hey, you've you've been doing this stuff as much as I have been, or, you know, rip also just isn't that interested in programming? And he was like, so he's like, I want you to come on board with me. And let's we'll do this together. So I was pretty cool.

Philip Pape 14:32

Yeah, I brushed off my, my issue of practical programming, which I did read, just so you know, because there's a running joke that, you know, have you actually read it? And yeah, he his acknowledgment to you is about you're like a numbers guy, and you know, you're the programming guru. So are all the programming examples in there. Everything from the Texas method and the splits and everything is it's all at your section of the book.

Andy Baker 14:56

I mean, not the Olympic lifting stuff, because I mean, I told him So that's like that's not my I think he did a lot with Jim Moser did a lot of the Olympic weightlifting stuff plus rip. So rip is a lot more experienced with Olympic weightlifting than I am. It's just not my I mean, I can teach people how to power clean and power snatch. But you know, full full Olympic weightlifting programming is not something that I do. But the rest of it. Yeah, it was pretty much me, obviously, with a lot of rips influence in there, but he pretty much let me take the reins on that and go in and he would, you know, there were stuff on there that I would propose, and he didn't want to have it in there. So we took it out, and, you know, that sort of thing. But for the most part, yeah, it's, it's, it's mine. And, you know, it's, it's one of those things where, you know, you put a few example programs into a book, but you can't put everything in there. And so there's a lot of there, you know, there's, I mean, there's stuff that we've learned, since then that, you know, we would probably go back and add, but it's like, at a certain point, you can only do so many rewrites, you know, of a book, and we've gone back and kind of looked over it, you know, over the past couple of years. And, you know, I think most of it's still, you know, there's nothing in there. I'd say, oh, no, I don't agree with that anymore. Totally got to take that out. I mean, there's stuff in there. I could, we could have clarified more, or, you know, expanded on

Philip Pape 16:12

shouldn't run the Texas method. Because it you know,

Andy Baker 16:15

yeah, I mean, there's, there's, there's a never ending there. I mean, that's going to go on forever. If we did a fourth edition, there would be a few years from that there would be things that we'd want to go in there and clean up and clarify. But, you know, after a certain point, you just have to put stuff out there and realize it's never really going to be perfect. But yeah, it's it's still pretty good. You know, I think and so I still stand by the work. And I think it's a good starting point for most people, you know, for at least to understand the basic concepts around programming, the problem, the problem is, and this is why we kind of joke about people don't read it is they do tend to look at, they do tend to just kind of skip over all the text and go right to the right to the programs, which which are all just examples. You know, and it's hard, because none of those are written for any specific person. They're all just kind of generic, but people follow them, like a cookbook, and they don't necessarily give themselves the latitude to adjust and tweak based on the principles that are outlined in there. And if you don't understand the broader principles, then you don't know how to necessarily make those adjustments. And so in granted, it is hard. I mean, for the average person to self program, it can be difficult.

Philip Pape 17:24

It is yeah, yeah, no, it is. But you know, you're what I was gonna say is, if you were to have an addendum to that book today, I would tell anybody, just go to your go to the, you know, Baker bar, what's your Andy baker.com, go to your training page. And those are effectively a bunch of programs that you've worked out over the years, and have selected the best stuff. And, you know, you charge for them, but they're, they're super reasonable. And you take those and then ask you a question on how to tweak it or read practical programming, you kind of get a good sense for how to work, work through it. And you've helped me with this over the past couple of years, where up now I've got a shoulder issue. Now I'm gonna cut. Now, you know, I've got this thing going on in my life. Now I need to go from four to five days. And those are the kinds of things where the principles matter. And once you've kind of gone through that process a few times, I think you can get pretty good at it. But, you know, it's not for everybody, like programming is a skill for sure. And I think you've got that.

Andy Baker 18:15

Yeah, I mean, even like, if you look at stuff like heavy light, medium training, I mean, it's, that's just a very general generic way to kind of organize the stress of a given week, but within that framework, I mean, there's, we gave a few examples in the book, but there's an infinite amount of examples you could give when you start rearranging, exercises, sets, reps, volumes and intensities. I mean, there's an almost endless amount of permutations you could do that would more or less be heavy, like medium stuff. And then there's like, a lot of programs I do that are, you know, kind of heavy light medium, but not exactly. And so that's like, that's where I'm, I tend to be less rigid that I think a lot of my readers and clients are they read it and they're very rigid and how they apply it. And I think a lot of them are very surprised that I'm not Yeah, I'm, I'm more you know, I always tell people like I'm I approach programming much more as an art than an engineer. Like from an engineering standpoint, I think a lot of guys, especially that are drawn to starting strength, because it's so formulaic, kind of have that engineering brain. And they really liked the structure, like but overly so almost. And so I think a lot of people are surprised to figure out how kind of loose I am with some of that stuff. Because I've had people say, Well, you know, you said we were going to do a heavy light medium program, but this isn't in I'm like, yeah, it's it's heavy light, medium ish. Yeah, kind of is. It's just it, but it just works. I mean, so it's like whether it fits very, you know, 100% neatly into this package. Doesn't really matter that much. Oh,

Philip Pape 19:49

yeah. No, when people people ask you a question on the forum, and they're like, Can I do this or this or this or this or this? And you're like, sure, like, yeah, those all work, you know, for what you're trying to accomplish.

Andy Baker 20:00

Um, they have a great thing at the starting strength seminar. And I think I hope I'm quoting this right. But Nick delgadio is kind of the programming guide now with starting strength, and he does a great job. I mean, I tell people, I mean, I, I trust in it, you know, as much as anybody, maybe even more so than me with a lot of the basic barbell stuff, he's really good at it. And you know, he has a good a good thing. And then in the programming section is like, before you ask a question, ask yourself, one doesn't matter. And a two and I think two is something like, you know, would the best option be to just try it and see? Sure. And that's, you know, that's, that's kind of what people are like, exactly what you just said there. They're like, Well, can I do this? Or should I do this? And it's, like, try it and see man, like, both could potentially be right, like, I can't tell you, is four sets of five or four sets of four gonna be better for this movement? Like, how can I? How can I know what that degree of precision, especially from somebody that I don't even coach, you know, closely. In any event, it's somebody that I do coach that closely. And I've made this point before, like, most of the stuff that we do from a programming standpoint is more or less guesswork. You know, there's, there's, there's no way to know, on any given day where something where the you can say, Well, when I squat today, should I be doing four sets of five? Or should I do four sets of four or five sets of four? Like, you can't really know that you're kind of just saying, Well, based on where we're at, and who I'm working with, and the loads that we're with? And I'm gonna say

Philip Pape 21:27

it's true recovery and how you feel.

Andy Baker 21:31

Yeah, you can't really pinpoint the exact level of stress that would be optimal. I mean, one of them is more right than the other four sets are for four sets of five, right? Like, one of them's more right than the other. But we're kind of just guessing there and in over time, you know, I think it probably evens out to where it doesn't really matter that much, as long as you're kind of in the ballpark, and you're really consistent with it.

Philip Pape 21:53

Yeah, you 95% versus 90%, may not be be a big difference, as long as you're getting to that 90%. What you know, the other thing I've seen a lot is that new lifters, they, they want to copy a an advance or, you know, an advanced lifters programming, or they see what they're doing on social media, right? And they just want to look or perform like that person. So they're going to try to do that. And that's just one example. I mean, what are the differences between beginners who just don't know what they're getting into quite yet and don't understand their body or what their max is, or anything else, or even intermediate, which I feel like late novice, early intermediate, still pretty much a baby in the woods. I know, I was between that and advanced lifters and then the mistakes people make in that regard with regards to writing their own programming.

Andy Baker 22:35

Well, one is the terminology. And we had rip me and rip have both said this, that I think if we had it to do over again, we would probably change the terminology away from like, novice, intermediate, advanced, I mean, I think novice is correct. But the reality is, like this, let's say the starting strength progression, depending on who that who the athlete is, and who we're working with, you're looking at anywhere from potentially as short as six weeks, to as long as six months, with six months being really long. Like that's, that's someone that starts out really small on most in most instances and, and gains a lot of weight through the program. And does everything right. But most of the time, it's between probably eight, eight weeks to 16 weeks, somewhere in there is probably more about right in terms of so. So somebody does a linear progression like that, and goes, let's say three or four months, and then they kind of, you know, phase out of that and they're ready for something more complex, or just, you know, structured differently. You know, there's still a beginner, you know, they're yes, they're on technically, they're on to intermediate training. But, you know, the way that we defined it in there was that, you know, someone that's an intermediate at this point, could only progress on a weekly basis, there was no day to day progression left, they couldn't, they couldn't progress between Monday and Wednesday and Wednesday to Friday, that they were on more of a kind of a weekly type schedule. But you know, if you've only been training six months, you're still a beginner, you know, if you've been training a year, you're probably still really a beginner, even though technically, you may be into kind of late stage intermediate training, the way that we defined it. And kind of the same thing with advanced is that people look at advanced programming and they think, Well, you know, I'll never be advanced like that's for like an elite competitor or whatever. But really advanced training, the way we define it is just, it's any type of progression that is that is longer than week to week. In other words, you can't progress between this Monday and next Monday, your progress is going to be slower than that. And really, anybody that's been training for six, eight months or a year for sure, is really going to be kind of in that advanced territory. And the differences between intermediate and advanced training are often so hazy, that it's there's a case to be made that there's not even really a point in making a distinction because the the line between the two are so blurry that You could really make the case that we just have kind of novice training, and then post office training, right? You can vary by lift, even, it probably will, you know, vary by lift. You know, a lot of people will make more, you know, longer linear progression on maybe a deadlift than they will an overhead press, or something like that, that's going to require a different type of programming. So, you know, so that's, you know, that's, that's one way to, it's just understanding that the rate of progression is going to slow a little bit sooner than you think that it is.

Philip Pape 25:31

Sure. So and then speaking of a beginner, then where what scenario, is there any scenario where you would not recommend someone follow the starting straight novice linear progression? Or something close to it? Is there is there any scenario you can think of? Um,

Andy Baker 25:46

yeah, I mean, a lot of times I do even with novices I put them on, it's still basically looks the same, it looks very similar. Like if you laid the programs out on paper and next to each other, but I'll use, a lot of times, I'll use a four day split with somebody even right from the beginning, as opposed to the full body structure. And that a lot of times that just that may have to do with somebody's schedule. You know, at the beginning, I think the first few weeks for sure, like full body programming, is the easiest, simplest way to do it. The problem with it is that as somebody gets stronger, is that the workouts take a long time, right. And so certainly, if you have somebody that is has kind of competing, you know, is competing for resources with the lifting, let's say they play sports, or they do any type of really other outside activity, we don't generally recommend people engage in a lot of, you know, a lot of aerobic activity while they're doing it, you know, it's better to take that time and just get stronger. But you know, sometimes people don't have the option, if they're playing a sport or whatever they have to do, you know, they have to practice and play the sport. And a really long drawn out full body workout is either too time consuming, or just too draining on the recovery. So, so doing something like a four day split, Monday and Thursday, is bench and overhead press and chin ups or something, and then, you know, Tuesday and Friday is just squat and deadlift, and you're out the door, you know, something very simple like that, it will, it's still basically all the same lifts, it's still, it's still progressed within the week, you know, nothing really changes other than you're going from, you're doing an upper lower split versus a full body split. And it just, it makes the workouts a lot shorter and easier to recover from. So, you know, but in terms of the lifts, I mean, when I work with older people, for sure, I mean, you're gonna have certain Pete that people that can't always do all the lifts, I mean, for sure you're gonna, the lift that most people can do actually is the deadlift. So I'm, if I'm thinking in my gym, where I get a lot of, you know, in my, in my coaching practice here locally in my gym, you know, I get a lot of clients that are, you know, 60s and 70s, and even up into their 80s. And so, I mean, very, I'd say it's more rare, the, it's more common that people come in and can't do at least one or two of the lifts the way that we prescribe them. I mean, it's pretty rare, you're gonna get a guy that's in his 70s, that hasn't worked out in forever, that can low bar squat, overhead press, and bench press without any remediation. I mean, because things like arthritic shoulders, and all that is kind of the norm, almost with that population with an unathletic older population. And so, you know, are they, you know, they're not going to have the strength to do to squat a 45 pound bar or overhead press, a 45 pound bar. So, you know, but that some of that stuff's easily solved with just lighter equipment, you know, having the equipment there, where they can do a 20 pound overhead press, you know, a lot of my older clients, I may have them start deadlifting with light kettlebells first, before I progress into a bar, you know, and I'll have them, we'll get up to where they can do a 50 pound kettlebell, and then move them to a 65 pound barbell, that sort of thing. You know, for for a lot of people that are maybe listening to this that are your, your clients are probably a lot of like mine, a lot of guys in their 30s and 40s. That's not usually an issue with that demographic. I mean, most of them can squat a 45 pound bar on day one, but a lot of my you know, for if you're a coach listening to this, I mean, or you're thinking about getting into coaching, if you're going to coach people in person, you're gonna have a lot of older clients that have a lot of issues, and you're going to be surprised how few of them can, you know, squat a 45 pound bar on day one, or deadlift 65 pounds, which would be you know, 45 pound bar with 10 pound bumpers on it, that's going to be way too much for a lot of people. And so are they may, you know, even if they have the strength, they may not have the range of motion, or, you know, things that people don't think about, you know, being able to lay down flat on a bench. A lot of older people, they can't do that, you know, they can't lay flat on a on a hard bench like that and get on and off. So you got to be creative in your approach. You still follow the same principles. But you're right, yeah. And I'm pretty flexible in that I really look for a cave, instead of trying to force people into a certain movement. I look at okay, what can we do well, and let's go focus on those, you know, let's let's not try to force you into this into this movement, you know, I'm not going to jam the bar down on your shoulders trying to force you to do a low bar squat, when I could just have you do a safety bar squat, or start you with a goblet squat or a bodyweight, bodyweight squat, you know, whatever it is, I'm just going to get you squatting, then we'll kind of flesh out some of this other stuff down the road.

Philip Pape 30:22

Yeah, and I think that goes back to talking about this more as an art in that you have to accommodate where people are coming from. And I know a lot of you guys in the club, you know, we're in our 40s. And, again, dealing with all sorts of little things, and you got to get creative. For me, it was recently a multi grip bar, instead of a street bar for for, you know, press because of the shoulder issues. I have female clients that are maybe in their 40s or 50s, who never lifted and, you know, can they have access to a women's barbell or 15 pound barbell, and that often at least lets them get started and progress up. You mentioned something about recovery. And you were talking about people who are maybe athletes who have other forms of cardio that they're doing in between. And you said maybe they need, you know, for four days versus three days, just this week, I had a client make an assumption. And I was thinking of he actually said, Well, I'm currently in a fat loss phase. So of course, I can't do a fifth or sixth day. And I thought, you know, and he had me running the bodybuilding track when I was on a cut. And that was six days a week. And it was fantastic, because each day was just like bite sized. And I only had stressful movements, maybe two days a week. And that allowed me to, you know, spread out the fatigue and recovery. So let's just explore that for a second. People understand that, like the number of days per week doesn't always correlate to, to the stress or vice versa. Right?

Andy Baker 31:37

Yeah, because like the, the bodybuilding track that I do, for a lot of the guys that are you know, strictly hypertrophy oriented, physique oriented, you know, that's not something I would necessarily start a novice outwith. But once you've kind of, you've got a decent base of strength established, and you're kind of looking to, you know, go outside that a little bit, then, you know, people people will see without seeing the program, they'll go, Oh, my God, it's six days a week, I can never recover from that. But the workouts, the way, the way that I like to train that style, is with short, very intense, very focused workouts. And so, you know, you're looking at a day where it's just, its shoulders, you know, and so that's not that's not near that's not as stressful as doing squats, bench presses, and deadlifts. You know, on a day, that's, you might do a, you know, a standing overhead press, that would be your, you know, your initial lift on that day. And then you've got a series of, you know, isolation type movements that are, you know, stressful on the shoulders, but low systemic stress, you know, you're talking about things like side delt raises, rear delt raises, maybe some shrugs, and you're out the door. And, you know, I'm I like for hypertrophy, I'm not a big volume guy, I like enough volume, but I'm much more in favor of, you know, high effort, a handful of very high effort sets for that type of training. And so the workouts are shorter, and they're intense. But there's it is, to me, it's easier to recover from something like that, even though, you're training more frequently, you're not training your whole body, or even half your body six days a week, you're just doing, just basically doing a body part. And you're using a lot of exercises that are not that systemically stressful. And so you can recovery, recover from it, and a lot of those workouts, you know, if you're really focused, and you're not scrolling around in your cell phone, and you're, you're watching your rest time, and that sort of thing, I mean, you might not come out in 3045 minutes, and you're out the door. And that's, that's kind of how I like to train. And if you're gonna combine that, say, with cardio and aerobic activity, it's a lot easier to do that, than if you're trying to knock out a full body workout, or even half a body, you know, full full, a full upper day or a full lower day, even as much more is much harder than that, then, you know, just doing like a body part type split.

Philip Pape 33:56

For sure. Ya know, I've learned a ton from from your approach here, when it comes to stress fatigue recovery, and how we balance all of those. And then the the I guess the other aspect for older lifters would be the kind of the types of things that they shouldn't shouldn't do during the week potentially, to manage that recovery. Actually, my friend Tony Perry, you know, you probably know him right in the barbell club a lot stronger guy than me. He's always getting on me for that. So I hear you, man. But he wanted me to ask you a question about tendon and ligament health in this context, whether there's anything older, older lifters maybe shouldn't do, whether it's sprinting, or Olympic lifts or anything like that. Maybe explore that a bit in terms of tendons and ligaments.

Andy Baker 34:40

Well, yeah, it's like high speed activities, for sure. Especially when you're not accustomed to them. That's the thing. It's, it's one thing like there's a difference between, you know, doing sprints when you're 40 When you started doing them in college, and you've maintained a sprinting regimen for into your 20s and 30s. And yeah, maybe you've done moderated it down, you don't do as many or as frequent or as fast, but you've never, you've never stopped those activities, you know, you've always played, you know, you've always played recreational basketball or whatever it is that you do. You've maintained those, just like with anything else your body is adapted and conditioned to those stresses, there's a big difference between that, and a guy that's 4550 years old, that says, Okay, I'm going to start doing sprints. Now, after never have after not having done that for 25 years, or 30 years, you're, you know, the connective tissue is not adapted to that, it's not that you can't do them, but you just got to be really careful about introducing that kind of stuff. And you have to really weigh the risk reward of that sort of thing. You know, jump training is typically not something that I would necessarily do, I think sprinting is okay. But I always tell my older guys, and really, this is really anybody over like, 30. So not just, I mean, there's really no reason why somebody our age should be running 100% max effort Sprint's I mean, you get, you get whatever benefit you're gonna get out of them by running at 80 90%. And you're, you're without putting yourself at the risk of even if it's not a torn Achilles tendon or something like that, just a strained hamstring, those types of things, that then, you know, they're not catastrophic, but they're, they're an annoyance, and they slow down your progress by a lot. You know, if you're having, if you're having to nurse that thing for, you know, three or four months, you can still train but you're not training hard, you're having to always nurse it, it's always in the back of your mind, whether it's going to give or not. And so, you know, there's certain things high speed movements, for sure, are something that I would be I would be careful with, you know, but I would say in terms of, you know, protecting yourself from that, don't do things that you're not conditioned to do. If you're not used to training heavy, you know, you need to kind of acclimate to that for I think full range of motion is very important, I think, full range of motion and using the, the lifts as using the one of the benefits of a lot of these lifts that we do is that kind of weighted loaded stretch, you know, I think is actually very, there, I think it helps prevent injury. And I think it's, I think it's good for the joints to be taken through there for not excessively long, but you know, not doing a lot of heavy partial movements, you got to be careful with like, dead stop movements from the pins. Those are movements that sometimes I'm careful with, you know, pin squats, dead stop rack, bench presses, those types of things, right, I like those movements. But as you get older, you start to those types of movements can be hard on the connective tissue. And then just paying attention to your own your own body and your own your own body's feedback to you about the things that might cause pain or your own injury history. You know, I've got a, I've got an entire history of minor PEC tears and one one or two, pretty, not major, but less than minor, you know, PEC tears. And so I've got some soft tissue issues, you know, in my, in my pecs, that maybe you don't have, or another guy doesn't have. So I'm more careful with certain movements, just based on my own injury history than another guy has, you know, if you've got a history of knee problems, or shoulder problems, or whatever, just paying attention to your own body, you know, kind of writing your own rulebook for what you can or can't do. Because, like, there are certain there are certain movements that get demonized a lot like dips, or behind the neck presses or upright rows. And yeah, those are problematic for a lot of people. But I can do all those movements. And I've never had I behind the neck press all the time. I've never had an issue with that. But I don't. But that mean, me being able to do it doesn't mean that everybody over 40 Can behind the neck press. I just have I've always had very free and open shoulder range of motion. And so that movement doesn't hurt at all. And but I don't, but I know a lot of people do. So I don't prescribe it. Universally, you know?

Philip Pape 38:56

Yeah, no, no, exactly. Right. Not not one thing works for everyone. And also, what you just said there is Don't you know, some of us out of ego, I think especially us guys will push ourselves, especially if we've gotten really, really strong I mean a lot of progress in one area where maybe it's our big lifts. And then we go out like I did a few years ago and said, sure I can trail run at 100%. And you realize kind of maybe you should have eased into it and worked up to it and train for you. And the older you get, the harder it is to bounce back from those things. Hey, this is Philip and I hope you're enjoying this episode of Wits & Weights. If you're looking to connect with like minded listeners on their health and fitness journeys, come join our free Facebook community. It's a supportive space where you can share your experiences, ask questions, and access free guides and weekly trainings. Just search for Wits & Weights on Facebook or find the link in the show notes. Now back to the show.

Andy Baker 39:48

Yeah, I mean, I've look I've been dealing with some plantar fasciitis and my foot for since July of last year, and it came out of me not following my own advice. My son is my son's a teenager He's playing football now. So I was training him last summer for his upcoming fall football season. And I had him out on the track running sprints. And I thought, you know, like, like a good dad like a good coach. I'm not gonna, you know, it's like 100 degrees. You know, it's it's harder to go it's harder to do that stuff. You know, on your own. So I thought you know, like a good a good dad, a good coach, good trading partner, I'm going to run the sprints with him, you know, we're going to we're going to, we're going to suffer suffer together type of thing. And so I was Do you know, during the workout, I was feeling pretty good. And I ran. I don't know what it was 10 1040 or 50. Yard Sprint's, but it had been a long time, you know, since I had done that type of stuff. And then of course, I got competitive with him. And we started we started instead of just running breaking point. Yeah, we started right actually racing. So I was I did a handful of, you know, max effort sprints with him, felt great, I woke up the next day, and man, my foot, like I couldn't put my foot down on the ground. And at first I was like, Man, I thought I had a stress fracture in my foot. And and then, you know, come to find out, it's just I gave myself a pretty acute bout of plantar fasciitis. And then if you've ever had that, you know, it's, it's a pain in the ass to get rid of, you think it's gone, and then it comes back, and then you think it's gone. And then it comes back. And so I've been dealing with that off and on since July of last year. So you know, it's not the, it's not debilitating, but it's definitely annoying. And that just came strictly from not following my own advice, which was one don't don't run sprints at max effort and don't, don't do a high volume of things that you're not accustomed to doing. I violated I violated both those rules. And, you know, I've kind of been paying for it a little bit. Luckily, it's a minor thing. It's not, you know, I didn't blow out a hamstring or quad tendon or something like that. But you know, that kind of stuff can happen.

Philip Pape 41:42

Yeah, that reminds me the suicide Sprint's I did at the beach a few years back, same thing, you know, you and me, buddy, let's go after it and see what we can do. And, you know, 25 anymore.

Andy Baker 41:53

Yeah, and I think to a degree, you know, as guys, and if you're, you know, former athletes or whatever you I mean, you're competitive, and it's easy to let the moment, you know, kind of take over and you do things that you don't, you wouldn't, you know, you wouldn't prescribe to a client, but you wind up doing yourself or, you know, in the gym, it might be, you know, working up to heavy, you know, you haven't been training for a while or whatever, and you decide to work up a little heavier than you should try to hit old numbers or pursuing too much volume, or whatever it is, you're just you're applying more stress than your body is able to recover from and I think, especially when you're older, and you're you you have you, you're still pretty strong and you have been strong, I think you kind of hit this nexus, where you're still able to apply a lot of stress to your own body, like I'm still pretty strong, like I can apply a lot of stress to myself, but I have to be careful with that because my recovery is not as good as it used to be. So I can, I can still put up some decent numbers on some of my lifts, I just have to be careful about my volume and my frequency and that sort of thing, because I'm capable of generating a pretty big training stress, but my ability to recover from that same stress is not as good as it was 10 years ago, or 15 years ago. So you just kind of have to learn, I think as you get older, and we we focused on this a lot in the barbell prescription, which was, you know, everything's going to happen on your own individual timeline. And, you know, that becomes even more true, the older that you get is that you really can't adhere to things that are too regimented. And too, cookie cutter. And you know, you really have to pay attention to how is this program that I'm trying to follow? How is that affecting me? You know, and that's one thing I always tell these guys that are like, in my club that are following, you know, a lot of the stock programming is that's a good starting point like, but give yourself permission to adapt, and improvise and modify and adjust. You don't, you don't necessarily have to ask for permission to do that. If you're following a workout plan, and you feel like God, this is just killing me, like, if your intuition is telling you that it's way too much, then it's probably too much, you know, and you don't necessarily have to ask, you know, to shave off a set or to or to back the wave down a little bit like you have to kind of pay attention to your own body. And I think that's one of the big mistakes that people make, is they they just they don't really, they don't give themselves permission to be like, at the end of the day, your your coach is an advisor, or, you know, that program that you're following is an advisor, I liken it to like a like a roadmap or a trail map. Like Like, if I give you a map, you know, a rudimentary map to follow that says, here's how you get from, you know, we're out in the woods somewhere and it's like, here's how you get from point A to point B, and you're going down that trail, you know, and you come to a two foot deep puddle of water. It's like well go around it, right. It wasn't on the map, but don't just wade through it. Like go round it like you know, and I tell I kind of like to try to tell my guys all these things like if you're doing this program and it says five by five squats, but every time you do five by five squats, you can't walk For a week, you know, are your low back hurts, like do okay, then don't get five sets of five do three sets of this, even though they do they do and like, I'm going to be the first guy, and that's going to tell you to do that. Because when I put out a program for people to follow, I'm that program cannot possibly be optimal for every single person that's gonna follow, it's gonna get you, it's gonna get you in the ballpark, it's gonna get you pretty close. And I think that's good. And so a lot of people are against, you know, stock programs or stock templates for that reason. But I think it's just like that little that a handwritten, you know, little map is still going to be better than just walking through the woods blind. But it doesn't necessarily include every obstacle that you're that you might encounter. But it's gonna get you closer than maybe if you're on your own. But it's not precise. And it's not exact.

Philip Pape 45:53

It's about 80% of the way there. And then the rest of it is, you know, taking this advice that you're sharing here, talking to a coach, having a trainer, whatever it takes to make those adjustments as you learn. You know, it's funny, you mentioned the GPS. Did you ever watch the office? The US was in the office? Oh, yeah. Do you remember the episode where they follow the GPS? Like almost ready to

Andy Baker 46:13

do it, Dwight drives the car right into the lake? Or Steve Carell does whichever one. But yeah, they're driving, and it's like, oh, there's a lake here. And it's like, well, the, the roadmap said to go into it, and it's like, so they just drive into the lake. And a lot of people do that with their own training. And it's like, you know, you have to just, I think that's a big problem with I don't know, there's something about the online world that's created that, you know, and I think some coaches would take it as an affront to their own programming skills, if their clients want to modify what they gave them, but you just have to recognize that, you know, unless you're working with somebody, like, like me working with Shelley, who's a very high level, you know, competitive athlete, you know, at the world level, but, you know, God, I've been working with her very, very intimately for like, six years. So like, with her, I can pretty much I think, you know, pretty much down to the, to the set are pretty, you know, pretty damn close, you know, get really close to what's optimal. But that is that has come from a long relationship of programming for her, and and now, you know, she's been doing it long enough where, you know, her feedback now to me, I listened to it a lot more than I would have, like, in year one, you know, so when she say, This is too much, or this is not enough, you know, at the beginning, as a coach, when you're working with people, you know, for a guy that's only been trained in a few months, you're like, Okay, I'll kind of make a note of that. But

Philip Pape 47:38

I was a coach, and I know better. So let's right,

Andy Baker 47:42

you don't blow it off. But a lot of this stuff, you've, they just, they don't know enough to make a lot of these models. But the longer somebody has trained the, the coach becomes much more of an advisor, rather than, you know, any kind of give them stuff, but I give them much more agency to make their own. You know, it's kind of like a football coach does with a really experienced quarterback with Tom Brady, you know, that the coaches is not going to script out every play for him, he's going to give him a lot of agency to go out there and call audibles, you know, or call his own play call, you know, call a pat call a pass when a run was called, because that's what the defense showed, you know, that type of thing where you may not do that with a rookie quarterback, because you're gonna make a lot of mistakes. So there's a lot of analogies in this from sports that

Philip Pape 48:24

Phil Jackson and his team, same thing. Hey, speaking of your program, so you're talking this whole the idea of templates versus customizing? You know, I guess one of the things I like about your KSC power building program is it's not really a template, it is very flexible. It's like, here's a bunch of things you could do on Monday, here a bunch of things you do Tuesday follow this framework, but then you get to choose, which some people may find frustrating because like, Oh, this guy is telling me that I have to now figure it out. But I like that. Well, I mean, what is your favorite program of all the ones you've ever written?

Andy Baker 48:58

I actually liked that one a lot. That that probably is my favorite. Cool, just just because I've, I've used it a lot personally, probably my strongest that I've ever been, was probably when I was, you know, consistently following that eight five to programming for the main lifts. And for the reasons that you just kind of laid out I like that program, because it provides there is a pretty good amount of structure on how to do the main lifts. So it keeps you from I don't like a program where you just walk into the gym and you're just guessing, you know, you don't want to leave it to the, to the client to just to just guess, you know, whatever feels good today. So it provides some structure but it also gives you a framework to do if, you know the your ability is just not on point that day, you know, and so a good program provides that of kind of, what do you do if you get out there and you know, you're supposed to do X but you can't that day, like you know, it kind of gives you it kind of gives you some direction on where to go and how to how to how to handle that when progress starts to slow down. So it gives you some it gives you a little bit Have rigidity and some structure on the main lifts. But then on the margins, it gives a lot of flexibility to one choose exercises that that you prefer or that fit your equipment situation. That's one of the biggest things like doing like hypertrophy based programming is what equipment do people have?

Philip Pape 50:17

Right? Machines? Yeah, they

Andy Baker 50:19

are, they're in a garage gym, and they have a barbell, and some dumbbells, and maybe some janky cable station or something, versus if they're in a really good commercial facility, where they have everything, this kind of gives them a framework of how to, you know, how to how to implement some variety, but also not to get carried away with variety. You know, here's, here's a couple of accessory movements for your chest, you know, maybe need one or two, but you know, a 10, you know, type of thing. And so that's because that's, that's an area where people with too much variety will get carried away, and they'll lose the lose focus on the big picture stuff. And focus too much on this the smaller type of things, but so I like programs like that, that are that have some rigidity, but also have some flexibility. And some Yeah, exactly, you know, on the on the margins,

Philip Pape 51:07

it kind of reminds me of flexible dieting on the nutrition side where you know, got your calories and macros, but you go ahead and pick the food, you know, it's similar here, you've got your a five to structure and you've got your days, but pick the pick the movements. So, after working in this field for I guess, at least two decades now, a couple of questions I wanted to pick your mind about one is, is there anything that you've completely changed your mind on? That used to feel strongly about? And then the other is, is there anything new that you're experimenting with? That maybe we haven't heard much about from you?

Andy Baker 51:40

Um, you know, it's hard to say if there's anything that I wholesale, used to believe that I just don't believe anymore. I mean, definitely, maybe the way that I do some stuff is won't for sure, the way that I do some things is different. I think, fundamentally, fundamentally, I more or less believe. And I think, you know, that's the thing, when you work with real people in the gym, I think you you kind of see what works. And if it worked 10 years ago, it's still gonna work. Now, it's not like, well, this is old, so it doesn't, it doesn't work anymore. No, if it worked, I mean, humans haven't evolved that much in 10 or 20 years. So, I mean, I think you get better at just maybe being more efficient, you know, with what you're trying to do. But more or less the stuff that worked, you know, the stuff that worked 10 or 20 years ago works. Now, you know, I think a lot of people too, they look at what your they look, you know, as a coach you you have to kind of come up with your own system that you that you follow. And you have to get really good at working within a system or a couple of systems. And you can't try everything or do everything. So it's like, if somebody will be like, well, Baker does this. So he obviously thinks that this other thing doesn't work. And it's like, that's not, that's something I just know exclusively, I just don't use it. If people do that with nutrition, I heard Mike is retell the other day on Instagram post or something. And he was right about this, it'd be like people see him, he's like, eating an orange. And they're like, Well, why aren't you eating an apple? He's like, it's like, Well, I'm just eating an orange. Like, it's not, it's not that I don't like apples, I'm just eating an orange. And it's kind of like that way with programming. It's like, I'm programming and training a person this way. It doesn't necessarily mean i wholesale believe that this other way doesn't work. I just, that's just not what I do. And I don't, I wouldn't know how to use it, as well as some other coach uses it. So I don't, I don't do it. But I've, you know, I've always I've always borrowed from a lot of different systems. So I don't have like one thing that I do necessarily, my system is a conglomeration of a lot of different stuff. You know, so I beg, steal and borrow, and then I assembled it kind of into my own thing, which I think is what most coaches wind up doing. But that's, and then I think we're I'm pretty good at, I think my strength is a coach, it's being able to take, you know, an approach that I that I know how to use and applying it to the right person, right, you know, utilizing, right I know, I know how to use the conjugate system with people, let's say, for instance, and I liked the conjugate system, but I don't universally apply the conjugate system to every single client that I trained, because it's not it's not appropriate for every single client that I trained, but it's very appropriate for other people. And so I try to match the programming structure or the programming style to the person that I'm working with, not only with their goals and their experience level and their abilities, but even just their individual preferences. You know, some people like a lot of variety and they want to learn new things, they want to be constantly challenged. And for them, like a conjugate approach, which is really really good and a conjugate system for the people that I mean, it's very deep, but it's a lot of variety of different exercises and that sort of thing. And so that type of

Philip Pape 54:52

go listen to your multi part, podcast episode on

Andy Baker 54:55

I'm not gonna I'm not gonna I'm not gonna break the whole thing down here because that's another hour but It's, you know that that system will work well for a lot of people that want to do it that way. But for a guy that doesn't like to train that way that wants, he wants to peel everything back, except for just the bare minimum basic stuff he wants, you know, a minimum number of exercises, he likes the repetition of doing the same stuff over and over and over again, then I might use more of a heavy light, medium structure with that person. And again, it may come down to something, you know, a guy may want to do a call, he may contact me and say, Hey, I'm really interested in this conjugate method. You know, but his his equipment selection is a rack and a barbell may not work that well for you, man, like it's Yeah, I mean, you can, but you're trying to, you're kind of trying to force a round peg into a square hole with that, and so you can't rotate through enough areas with Yeah, that's right. Yeah, yeah, you just have, you just you kind of need more stuff to do that. And so sometimes it's better to just, you know, it's better to just go with what you have, and do the best with what you have. And then in trying to, because if you're if you want to joy, I'm a big believer, if you don't enjoy your training, you're not gonna You're so if you're following a system of training that is, doesn't match up well, with your preferences, you're, you're probably not going to be as consistent with it. And consistency is key. And one of the one of the keys to consistency is to actually, I mean, all of us have days where we don't want to train and we don't want to go in there and do it. But you have to be following something that excites you, at least to some degree. And so as my as a coach, I try to match that up as best as I can.

Philip Pape 56:25

Yeah. And that right, there is huge, that's a big part of why I recommend you all the time to people because it there's so much variety to choose from, and you'll find something that works for you. And then even in the barbell club, it's just the tracks that come out, and the variety we tweak are great. So last couple things. If we got time for a couple more questions, I got plenty of time. All right, so are you you're always open to things because I noticed like in the bodybuilding track, you're big into the the rest pause sets and density sets, and you recommend all these different things, which I think are fascinating, you know, the dog crap training, stuff like that? What, uh, what have you been experimenting with? Or trying to, to work through now that maybe we haven't heard of? Or is there like? Or if not, is there something that you're personally working on that you're just trying to improve?

Andy Baker 57:10

You know, for the, for the last several years, I've kind of gone back to where I started, which was, you know, I started, like a lot of guys did is, you know, late teens, early 20s, with a bodybuilding style approach with the body part split. But looking back, you know, when I didn't have enough good information, and so I was doing a lot of things wrong, that I still made progress, because I was, you know, I was very, you know, I trained hard, I was very consistent, I always, I understood the importance of nutrition early on. So I got, I got good results with that type of training, you know, early on plus I was, you know, 1920 21. So you're gonna, if you're doing if you're eating well, and you're training hard, you're still going to get pretty good results. And at that age. And so, you know, I, but looking back, you know, there was a lot of things I would have done differently. It had I had the information that I have now. So several years ago, I kind of went back to that bodybuilding style approach that I that I used when I was younger. And I thought, okay, with the information that I have now, could I do this better and make it work? And so for years for I did that for a number of years before I started offering, you know, that track out to my clients of, you know, how do I make this kind of body part split type stuff work? Because now I understand a little bit better of why I'd be doing something that I'm doing instead of just doing what I felt like, which is kind of how I did it back then. And so yeah, I think the the bodybuilding style of training, applying the principles of progressive overload, and that sort of thing, to that style of training, as there would have been a time where I would have said that, you know, that maybe that style of training didn't work, because you've heard that before, like body parts of which only work for advanced athletes or, you know, enhanced athletes. So, and that's really not true, you know, that if you're on gear, you're anabolics, in any type of training that you do is going to be better than if you're not, but the physic the physiology is still basically the same. And so, you know, that was a big thing for a long time. They said, well, body parts splits don't work for, you know, natural guys, natural guys need to do full bodied or upper lower, or that type of stuff. And that's not necessarily true. You just need to make sure that certain principles are in place like progressive overload. And I think that's one of that's, that's one of the reasons I'm so drawn to Dante tradelens work and kind of his dog crap system. And again, I don't prescribe the dog crap system. Exactly. But I've, I've borrowed elements of it, one of which is just that, that applying those principles of progressive overload and everything to more of a bodybuilding style of trading, which I think is where a lot of guys, young guys, especially that train in that vein, where they go in there, and they have an arm day, let's say in this and they do a lot of volume, a lot of sets and reps on their arms and all that kind of stuff and they still don't see any progress, any growth. And a lot of that is is because like I was when I was at ages, I really wasn't Thinking about progressive overload, I was thinking about, well, how can I go in and just destroy my arms? You know how so, you know, you're just trying for what's the most massive pump I can get? How sore can I get, how fatigued can I get, you know, it's not a good workout, unless that body part that you're training is just destroyed, you know. And that was kind of what a lot of the bodybuilding magazines and stuff back in the day preached was you have to just absolutely destroy a muscle as as opposed to now my thinking is more, you know, you have to take, you have to find certain exercises that work really well for that, you know, for that muscle group. And then you have to apply the principles of basic progressive overload to those exercises. And we think a lot on a about progressive overload on squats and deadlifts and that sort of thing, but we don't necessarily think about it on our cable, tricep press downs, or our barbell curls, those types of movements, people just go in there, and they just knock out three or four sets of 10 reps, and then wonder why they're not growing? Well, it's like, if you're, if you're doing a cable, tricep, press down for 10 reps with 100 pounds, you know, in a few months, you need to be doing 10 reps with 150 pounds. And if you're not thinking that way, on even those small exercises, you're not going to see the type of muscular growth that you would if you were, you know, applying those principles of overload. And so it's the same thing. I mean, people recognize that on their squats, you know, if you want your legs to grow, you need to take your 225 Squat and turn it into a 315 squat. to 25 for five needs to become 275 for five needs to become 315 for five needs to go needs to turn into 405 for five, I mean, that's really, that's where groat muscular growth occurs on those lifts. But it applies to every other lifts, if you're trying to get your chest to grow. And you're doing a dumbbell bench press. Like if you're doing the 60s for a set of 10. Today, well, in a few months, you need to be doing the 80s for a set of 10. Exactly, you know, so those principles that we apply to the barbell lifts apply to every other lift that we're going to be doing, you know, when you're trying to do that bodybuilding style approach. So I went back and kind of retrace my steps that's kind of training the way that I used to train, but applying some of this stuff, some of these more scientific principles to that training and see if I can make it work. And even getting away from the barbell stuff entirely, just to see if I can elicit an adaptive response without them. You know, and you can, it's not great for strength, you know, your low bar, one Rm is not going to go up if you don't train your low bar, one RM, but you can still, you know, I wanted to see, can I actually grow doing a lot more machine based, Bill based training and that sort of thing, because I knew I could with the barbells, I wanted to see if I could make it work, you know, kind of with the bodybuilding type system, more physique level approach, and it does it does work. Yeah, and

Philip Pape 1:02:39

you have some really nice features in that program. For what I can recall, it's been been about a year since I ran it, but it had the top set back off set approach, right in the bodybuilding track. And you you'd you'd go through a certain progression for six 812 weeks, what is it now on the program, before you start to switch it up? Something like six weeks, right?

Andy Baker 1:02:57

Yeah, I'll do like basically like six weeks, and then I'll D low people. And, and again, you know, is that optimal for everybody? You know, the idea is, though, is that if you know, if you know that we're going to, we're going to kind of load for six weeks, and then D load and then kind of reshuffle some of the movements, then you're trying to kind of maximize, yeah, you're you're pushing Yeah, it's

Philip Pape 1:03:17

a psychological thing. For sure, yeah, you're

Andy Baker 1:03:19

gonna try to push that, you know, your benchpress in the four to eight, four to eight rep range, you know, you're going to push that hard for six weeks. And then, you know, we may not the benchpress may just go from the first exercise to the second exercise, and then not and be in the eight to 12 range, instead of the four to eight range. But you're still, you're still trying to apply those principles of progressive overload now, just within a different reparation in a different order. And so all that type of stuff, you know, I've kind of figured out a way to long term kind of make it work.

Philip Pape 1:03:48

Yeah, and it's a lot of fun, and you're still hitting plenty of compound lifts in there. In a variety of rep ranges, like you said, it's not always the big three which can be refreshing actually, when you're kind of getting tired of doing the same lists over and over. And then it's also I also read it during a cut and you had suggested that as one of the the higher priority programs potentially because of the autoregulation and the recovery, you said something in one of your articles you wrote stay out of the bulking, cutting purgatory, pick a goal and get there. bulking usually erases your abs and cutting use erases your PRs just deal with it. Right. And I'm always having I'm always having arguments with people about bulking and cutting myself to me and Tony, he's like, stop cutting man, you gotta you gotta gain and I'm like, Well, I don't want to gain 40 pounds and keep going up I need to at some point get a little bit late. And that's

Andy Baker 1:04:35

and that's true. I mean, the bulking and cutting thing. Not that it doesn't work. But I think what what happens is guys just hang out in the middle for too long. So they, they want to, you know, drop the body fat, but they don't do it long enough. You know, to really get lean, you know it because they're because what happens is, you get a few weeks into that diet, you know, and your strength starts to go down a little bit and so you have They have a system of training. Like, that's why I don't recommend when guys are going on a cut, I don't recommend them following some sort of barbell base strength program that has them working up towards a peak, like working up towards a one rep max, because you're asking the stress to go up, up, up, up, up, up up, while your recovery and your recent your nutritional resources are going down, down, down, down, down, like that's a bad combo. So you have to figure out a way to train that allows you to still train hard, because you need to train hard in order to maintain the muscle mass, but your absolute strength like your your PR, one RMS on your lifts are gonna go down. And I honestly wouldn't have guys even mess with that you don't need to be taken out squat one RMS while you're on a cut, because one they're going to go down to it can be dangerous, if you're if you're really dieting hard, and you're depleted, you don't need to be going down and doing those types of, of lifts. So you need to be training hard, but in a within a specified rep range. I do like to push the lifts close to failure, but not relative, it's relative, it's relative, you know, it's within the five to eight rep range or the eight to 12 rep range not in the one to three rep range. And the when you get there that you find that the load on the bar, I don't want to say it doesn't matter, it does matter, you want to try to maintain your strength as much as possible. But within those kind of medium rep ranges, not not not your one RM maximal strength, because that is going to go down if you're on a prolonged cut. And so you just got to kind of get that out of your head and really stay focused on the goal, which is if I'm trying to get lean, let's just get lean. And then once you level off, and you start going back into gaining again, a lot of that strength is going to come back. I do think that there's a lot of there's a lot of utility. And if you're kind of in that you're your body type is such you've got some muscle and you're kind of strong, but you're kind of fat, and you want we'd like to be less fat, but you're still not your strength is still not where you want it. And so people are like, Well, should I should I just keep gaining weight? Or should I or should I lean out because and honestly, if you're in that zone, I usually tell people to do the lean out first, like get get lean. And then because actually, if you get nice and lean, you're actually going to be more anabolic to start a bulk later like that bulk is going to be more effective going forward, your body is actually going to you're going to your insulin sensitivity is going to be better when you're leaner. So you'll be able to eat more without putting on as much body fat when your insulin sensitivity has been fixed. If your level of runway, yeah, yeah, if you're fat now and you start bulking, probably your insulin sensitivity is not good. And so if you start trying to go into a big caloric surplus, why you're kind of fat, now, you're just gonna get fatter, I mean, you still will probably get stronger, but you're gonna, then you're gonna get to a point where, you know, yay, my squat went up 50 pounds, but man, I'm fat. And I don't want to be here, you know, and it's like, so you're going to be, you're going to be in a better place to add that muscle if you start off a little bit leaner. So it can be better to cut first, because of getting your insulin sensitivity is better. A lot of times your testosterone is going to be better. I mean, I think we know now that you know being obese is one of the leading causes of having your, your sort of have is having of having low testosterone. And so I think all of those markers are going to be better and are going to enable you to have a better bulk if you get lean first. You know, if you're if you're already lean now, you don't need to get, you know, you don't need to get down into single digit body fat unnecessarily,

Philip Pape 1:08:20

I guess you could easily do that later. Right? Exactly. You know, I've also seen the scenario where someone, especially new lifters who have never lifted before, you know, could get some of that body recomp. Right, they can stay at maintenance, potentially, if they if they're not excessively heavy and really need to lose that weight right now for health reasons. Maybe it's around a maintenance and enjoy some that body recomp that the rest of us can't get it get any more to that extent, and then figure out where do you want to go, because you might see, hey, the waist size has gone down, the muscle mass has gone up. And I haven't lost any weight on the scale. But now I'm good to bulk. You know, it could go that way too. Yeah.

Andy Baker 1:08:51

And I think cardio plays a role in that as well. You know, it's your, it's kind of it kind of again, it kind of depends on where you're at, you know, if you're if you're if you're very overweight, if you're carrying a lot of body fat, you're not happy with the way that you look and you feel, you're probably more going to be especially if you're older, you're probably going to be more on the end to get the weight off first. But if you're just kind of in that, like skinny fat type of thing, you know, or you're just moderately overweight, you can oftentimes get a little bit of a recap, just by cleaning things up, you know, making not necessarily eating a lot more or a lot less, but just eating better, making better food choices. And just in being more consistent with it not having this is something we all struggle with, you know, not just being good on your diet, you know, Monday through Thursday, but, you know, Friday, Friday nights, I mean, a lot of people do really good on the weekend. I mean during during the week, and then on the weekend, you know, they drink too much they eat bad. I mean, I'm certainly guilty of this. Then you know, they kind of never really gained any traction because those couple days over the weekend keeps growing them up. And I think cardio sometimes it can help to kind of smooth out the edges of it. perfect diet, it won't, I don't like people to get in the mindset of, I'm just going to eat whatever I want, and then do cardio to try to undo it. But you know, it kind of most people's diets are not perfect all the time. And so adding a little bit of, you know, just kind of moderate intensity that zone to cardio or you want to talk about, you know, 234 days a week for 20 to 40 minutes at a time, that can help, it can help you to eat more, and you'll be more, you'll be more satisfied with your eating, you're less likely to binge, because your caloric intake is a little bit higher. And that can help as well. Yeah, that's

Philip Pape 1:10:34

the thing, I actually just talked to Brandon the cruise about the high energy flux lifestyle, right. And he was talking about that as well, the idea that we want to eat more and move more, we don't want to eat more, we don't want to eat less, move more, we don't want to eat less, move less, you know, you want to have both kind of up there. Because now you're fully you're fully feel filling your tank, you're feeling your lifts, you're feeling better. A lot of this is how you feel too, right. And it's just when you talked about eating better. I imagine that's going to help with digestion, how you feel, how you recover, how you sleep, everything else.

Andy Baker 1:11:02

It does. And that's and then the other thing was that I just had a conversation with a client, I guess a day or two ago. And this is something if you work like like I do, and you probably do you work with guys that are in like their 30s and 40s and 50s. That can be a high stress time of life and turn. I mean, that's where your career is really busy. You have young kids, a lot of times, there's a lot of pressure on you business wise, financial wise, marriage wise, kids wise. And so a lot of times when you're in that situation, and you're but you're wanting to, you know, lose some weight to and guys are wondering, Well, should I die it or should I do cardio, you're one of the things you got to remember when you're under when you're in a situation where you're where you're stressed, you're in, you're in a high, and it's not really going anywhere, right, your career is not going to get any easier. Your kids are still there for 10 more years, you know, you've still got job pressures and all that kind of stuff that a very diet, a very restrictive low caloric diet, very low carb, very repetitive diet, that you're less likely to stay with that when you're in a high stress environment, your that's going to lead to a lot more binge eating and going off track. And so I would rather a guy in that situation, eat more, because that's going to satiate him better. And it's probably going to lead him to less binging and overeating. So feed him more, but have him do some cardio on top of that, in order to get in order to get towards that deficit. And one you'll discourage kind of those cyclical patterns of binging and being restrictive binging and being restrictive. And the cardio in and of itself is a good stress reliever. You know, there's there's a lot of evidence that you know that that type of that type of work is good at reducing stress levels. And so that's the approach, because that's the debate people always have, should I dye it harder and not do the cardio because it's potentially catabolic, or should I do cardio and eat more? And so that's just something to think about for a lot of the people that are probably listening to this that are probably in our kind of our age, and in our situations in life. Is that something to think about is Yeah, for sure. Feed yourself a little bit more, but then do the cardio to kind of get yourself closer to the deficit. Yeah.

Philip Pape 1:13:09

And even walking, I mean, walk as much as you can is really a form of cardio, that's also low stress. And people don't do enough of it. We're all sitting around desks, and you might go to the gym and think that you're working hard. And that's the only time you move then that that could be part of the the issue right there. All right, Andy, I want to ask one more question. And I asked this of everyone, it's what one question Did you wish I had asked, and what is your answer?

Andy Baker 1:13:33

Oh, man. That's a tough one. I don't know. Where can I find out more about your stuff? I don't

Philip Pape 1:13:41

know. That was gonna be my last question. No, no, that's that's the last question. Anyway.

Andy Baker 1:13:46

I know. I went I went straight to it. I don't, I don't really know. I mean, I've, I've done so many of these podcasts. I've got, I've got a lot of, I've been out there a lot. I've got a ton of articles, my own podcast, that sort of thing. So there'll be any anything that people want to know about my opinion on stuff. It's it's out there somewhere, you know, and so that's yeah, I don't know. I don't really have a good answer for that. I'm sorry. I should have prepared better.

Philip Pape 1:14:09

Okay, then I'll throw it out for you. Is there is there any is there like any entertaining story or something very career that I don't know, you've never shared on a podcast or maybe haven't told, you know, the public? Oh, yeah. Knows most of those. I don't want to my millions of listeners, Andy, you know,

Andy Baker 1:14:25

yeah, from, you know, from my, probably just, you know, I think a lot of people that they don't know a lot about, like, you know, some of the I've got a pretty diverse background and where I've trained and how I've trained and who I've trained with and everything and I think that's, that's helped me become a better coach of just I spent, you know, I was of that age where I grew up in gyms before the internet. And, you know, that was really helpful, I think, to where that was back in the days where when you went into a gym, people shared more, you know, people didn't have headphones hands on. And it was more common I think for young young guys like me teenagers and stuff to go up to the big guys in the gym, the big strong guys and, you know, ask for advice, or they would freely come over and give the advice, but it you know, in a in a very helpful way, you know, and there's just so many of those, those stories of guys that I've met over the years, I mean, some of which, you know, guys like Kurt Kawasaki, and stuff that people would know. And then other guys that were just in gyms that I've trained out over the years that, you know, you know, people don't have any idea who they are, and I don't, I haven't kept up with them, I don't know where they are, but just all the all the guys that have come up and said, you know, just one thing to you just one exchange that you've had in the gym, with somebody that stuck with you, you know, that helps you you know, even if it's just a little tip of how to do an exercise, versus, you know, a more fundamental way of thinking about, you know, how you train. And a lot of that, for me was just observational, just, you know, watching being in gyms, around people, not not watching people, you know, not watching people's Instagram stories, but watching you know, being in a gym and watching how guys trained for years at a time, you know, the the guys that you would want to emulate the big strong lifters that, you know, watching? What did they not? What did they write about on social media? Because it didn't exist? But what did they actually do day to day, you know, week to week that made them have success, and you start to see certain patterns with that, you know, over time. And so I think that's something that people miss miss now is that most people get their information from social media. And there's so much conflicting information. And one guy saying, you know, oh, you should do this, and the other guy say, No, you should do that. And I think people look for the differences in people's approaches, rather, rather than the commonalities. So that's one thing I've I've always tried to look at is, you know, I know with whoever I'm going to, you know, whatever source of information I'm going to go to, to try to gain some knowledge from I know that there's going to be certain amount of things that they say that I disagree with, or maybe don't understand, or whatever. But I try not to focus on the things I disagree with, I try to focus on the things that where people agree and try to find the commonalities of what works between these different camps that you might see in between different lifters that have success and bodybuilding or powerlifting, or whatever, what are the commonalities that people do? Versus what are the things that they do different? Because, and I think what you're learning is that there is no one magical approach that works for everybody. I mean, even if you look at elite level powerlifting. I mean, in a way, everybody's kind of doing the same thing. But they've all if you go get the top 20 lifters in the world, they're on 20 different programs, right? They're not all just following one thing. And so I think the only thing that you can deduce from that is there's a lot of potential things at work, you're trying to really drill down on what are the commonalities, and then finding out, you know, on those different things, what are the things that would work for you and apply to you, you know, or apply to your clients? And so, you know, that's kind of that's just kind of always been my approach of just being an observational list, and trying to see the commonalities instead of the differences between people in different camps.

Philip Pape 1:18:09

Yeah, and I can respect that, that it's like this discerning open mindedness you have. It's not that, you know, it's not that everything goes. But there are principles that are universal principles. And you recognize that and you're not dogmatic or rigid. And this is a great takeaway from folks is to just keep that in mind as they go through their journey. Because this is, at the end of the day, we want this to just be a fun part of our life that gets us to be healthy, fit strong, and we want to enjoy it along the way, right for the decades that we do this. So absolutely. So all right, what now the question, Where can listeners find more about you and your work?

Andy Baker 1:18:39

Just go to Andy baker.com. That's the kind of the hub that's all my articles are there, you know, products and services are there and then the baker barbell podcast? Also if you want to search that up?

Philip Pape 1:18:52

Absolutely. I'll put those in the show notes as well, Baker barbell podcast, and of course, Andy baker.com. You're always putting out a ton of really cool articles. If you're on your email list. You get interesting musings every week about some some cool stuff that I really don't hear anywhere else. So check those out. And man, Andy, this was a pleasure. It was even better than I expected. I really want to thank you for coming on the show. Yeah, thank

Andy Baker 1:19:13

you for having me. I enjoyed it. I'll be back anytime you want me would love that. Cool. Thanks, man. Cool.

Philip Pape 1:19:20

Philip Pape 4/7/23 Philip Pape 4/7/23

Ep 59: Why You Should Track Your Food

In this episode, I share a framework to help you understand why you should track your food and the practical steps you can take to start doing so right away. You can choose whatever food-tracking app you want that will help you track the priorities included in the framework.

Tracking your food may sound daunting or obsessive, but doing so will help you develop freedom and flexibility in your relationship with food.

In this episode, I share a framework to help you understand why you should track your food and the practical steps you can take to start doing so right away. You can choose whatever food-tracking app you want that will help you track the priorities included in the framework.

Tune in and learn more about the specifics you need to track and how it can help you improve your eating habits, health, and well-being.

___________
👩‍💻 Schedule your FREE 30-minute Nutrition Momentum Call with Philip here.
___________

Today you’ll learn all about:
[0:00] Intro
[1:48] A top-down framework on why you should track your food
[3:38] Documenting your food, how you feel, and your sleep
[6:57] Energy level of your food in terms of calories
[11:00] Tracking your macronutrients
[13:05] Tracking carbs and your energy
[15:55] Stephanie shares her experience with one-on-one nutrition coaching with Philip
[17:49] Sub-macros: Breakdown of your macros
[22:10] Protein sources and amino acids
[23:42] Micronutrients and vitamins and minerals
[26:03] Getting bloodwork or vitamin/mineral screening to know if you have any deficiency
[27:10] Recap of the 5 food tracking priorities
[29:20] Outro

Episode resources:

Ep 58: Using High Energy Flux to Eat More, Burn More Fat, and Build More Muscle with Brandon DaCruz

IG: @witsandweights
Email: philip@witsandweights.com

🥩 Download your Free Ultimate Macros Guide and 50 High-Protein Recipes here

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Transcript

Philip Pape 00:00

10% of your calories or a third of your fat as saturated fat, you track that and then you could alter your food choices. I prefer you getting saturated fat from your meat and animal products and not adding a whole bunch of more saturated fat.

Philip Pape 00:16

Welcome to the Wits & Weights podcast. I'm your host Philip Pape. And this twice a week podcast is dedicated to helping you achieve physical self mastery by getting stronger. Optimizing your nutrition and upgrading your body composition will uncover science backed strategies for movement, metabolism, muscle and mindset with a skeptical eye on the fitness industry. So you can look and feel your absolute best. Let's dive right in. Wits & Weights community Welcome to another solo episode of the Wits & Weights podcast, where we talk about how you can look and feel your best using science backed strategies. I hope you enjoyed our last episode number 58 with Brandon de Cruz, where we revealed what it means to live a high energy flux lifestyle. Today for episode 59 Why you should track your food, you might be thinking that tracking your food is inconvenient, it's weird, it's obsessive, or it's not something that you can do forever. And yet, it's by far one of the most effective things you can do. Especially if you've struggled to manage your weight or your body composition until now, or you've never done it before tracking your food if you do it the right way. And for the right reasons will help you develop flexibility and freedom in your relationship with food for the rest of your life. And yes, even if you decide at some point that you no longer want or need to track, I'm going to take a unique angle here. In this episode, I'm not going to tell you what app to use, how to use a food scale, how to prep or plan meals. Today, I'm going to construct a top down framework for you to think about why we might track food, you know, at least for a short period, and how you can do it at each level of the framework. So that by the time the episode is done, you'll know what to do and can take action to become a highly skilled, highly empowered master of your nutrition domain. So instead of following a diet, or labeling foods as good or bad, which results in a moral choice, you're going to be able to choose whatever foods you want that fit within this framework and within your lifestyle, which gives you both freedom and flexibility for the rest of your life. So if that sounds good to you, let's get into it. I'm going to start at the top with what is most important. And then we're going to work our way down the list. And the more of this list that you can satisfy, the easier it will be to reach your goals, not just for fat loss or building muscle, but also for overall health, for energy, mood, hormones recovery, and really your overall health and well being, we're going to start at the top. And the most important thing when it comes to tracking your food. And this might surprise you is tracking how you feel. What we're talking about here is making sure that you have an appreciation for what foods you tolerate or not what your preferences are before you even go to the next level of the framework. And the next priority to take the offenders off the table to understand what works for you rather than what somebody said in a diet book or program. And we can do this systematically and objectively by thinking about a few different things. And this is common sense. But what I'm asking you to do is as you track your food, I also want you to either journal or document list or even just think consciously about these things. So one of those is digestion. Lots of foods cause digestive issues, you may not even be you may not even realize it you may have been eating a certain way for so many years, that you just accept how how it is your bowel movements and how your stomach feels, and your bloating and so on. And until you start to experiment with other foods or move toward a different dietary pattern. And notice that say some of those things go away. You then until you do that you can't discover that things have been causing issues for you. So digestion is one another is hunger, hunger is huge. And being aware of your hunger and then be able to categorize it as physical or physiological. Being able to understand what level of hunger you are at relative to you and your history. And then associating those types and levels of hunger with what you were doing and what you're eating. which then gives you consciousness and awareness to tweak things and reduce that hunger as you select your foods. The next thing as far far as how you feel is your energy and your mood. So these are these might sound qualitative, but you know that when you have to drag yourself up in the morning

Philip Pape 05:00

To go to the gym, when you have to drag yourself under the bar to get your back squat, or when you have to drag yourself to go get some work done, versus the days that you're just you've got all that pep and get up and go, and you have the energy to get stuff done. And you feel strong and capable in the gym, you notice those differences, and a lot of that could be down to what you're eating. Think about when you go to a restaurant, you have a big meal with lots of sodium, salt, fat, sugar, and how you might feel even if it's not a big meal, calorie wise, just how you feel how you feel after you go to that fast food restaurant and have the fries cooked in who knows what oil, and who knows what ingredients and where they've come from. Versus if you cut up some potatoes at home and roast them with some olive oil. Compare the differences between these things, energy, mood, even recovery. And then the last thing that you want to be conscious of in terms of how you feel when it comes to tracking your food against that is your sleep. Seriously, sleep is tied to food in many ways sleep is tied to food in that if you don't get enough of it, you will be hungrier, and your metabolism will drop. And that will cause you to not be able to eat as much. But it could also be tied to when and what you're eating. If you're eating later in the day, or if you're eating certain composition of foods, whether it's macros fats, or whether it's carbs, fats or protein for you, as an individual does something cause more interrupted sleep. And again, this comes down to experimentation, and finding out what works and what doesn't. So all of this encompasses the first and top level of the framework for tracking food, which again, might surprise you, but it's going by how you feel because at the end of the day for a sustainable approach, eventually, you want to not have to track and still know exactly the right foods for you. Alright, so that's the first one, then we start getting into the more nuts and bolts, the nitty gritty if you will. And that takes us to number two on the hierarchy is calories. Now calories are important for a few reasons. The first, and maybe the biggest reason is energy balance. We know that calories are the only way to manipulate the energy coming in to your body, knowing that the energy going out is going to be driven by your movement, and your training and your muscle mass. And I recently had if you listened to last week's episode with Brandon Cruz, we talked about the high energy flux lifestyle, the idea of eating more and moving more moving more and eating more. And energy balance is not thought of in a vacuum. Meaning if you want to lose fat, yes, you have to be in a deficit. But relative to what? Well, it's relative to how much how many calories you burn. Obviously, if you burn more calories and want to be in that same deficit, you get to eat more food. So energy balance is really important, especially in the context of your overall movement. And at least being aware of the number, by tracking your food gives you the power to make the changes, you need to get to a different number. Very, very important. I have people come to me all the time saying I struggled for years with my diet. I've tried this. I've tried that whether it's keto, paleo, something else, I've tried low carb, I've tried him in fasting. And one of the first questions I asked is, have you ever tracked? And often the answer is no, because that's annoying, or I tried this app, and it was just too laborious, and so on. Now, those are all valid concerns, because the tool that you use has to fit what you're trying to accomplish. And there are real many really bad tools out there. There are some really good tools as well. And I promised that I wouldn't talk about what app to use on this on this episode. So I'm not going to do that. But the once you can find once you get that variable out of the equation, I would say that the quote unquote inconvenience of tracking your food is far outweighed by the years and years of inconvenience of not getting your results. And if you agree with that statement, then the what they call opportunity cost of not tracking is much higher than the cost of tracking. So tracking your food for calories alone will make a huge difference in meeting your goals. The other reason we want to track calories is the awareness, the awareness of how much we eat, and the awareness of how many calories we burn. So let me put that in context. How much we eat. People underestimate that by 50%. This is this has shown time and again in the literature that we do a terrible job at estimating our calories. If I told you to tell me how much you ate yesterday and you didn't track, whatever you guess would probably be to 50% more than you really ate unless you've tracked before and have developed the skill and the intuition. So just the awareness even if you did it for three weeks, you'd be shocked at the reality not just of how much you eat

Philip Pape 09:59

Get days where you think you're staying on track, or are similar to other days, like Saturday versus a Thursday, you might find that Saturday just blows your whole plant out of the water. And knowing that one or two days makes all the difference in your week, allows you to take control the situation. And then the other piece of this is understanding your personal expenditure, your total daily energy expenditure or your maintenance level, if you can eat it in a fairly routine way, for about two to three weeks, and you've maintained your weight, and you've tracked your calories, then you know that that's roughly how many calories you burn per day. And if you're in the ballpark, you know, if you know you're around 2200, or 3000, or 1500, and it could be way off from what a calculator tells you. That's really good information. Because even if you don't want to track in the future, you'll know that roughly this amount of food is what I need to maintain my weight. And that's one of the reasons we track calories. Okay? So tracking calories is important. The next most important is going to be number three macros macronutrients, okay. And by the way, this whole framework, the idea here is not just to track these for its own sake, it's so that you get data to make decisions from and you can construct your personal meal plan or your personal I'll say, repertoire of foods that you would go to, rather than looking at a book or eat this not that or low carb or cut this food group, it's, Hey, here's my personal ecosystem of foods that work for me that make me feel good that meet my calorie needs, and so on. So that's why we're doing this. So let's get into number three macros. Alright, we know what the macros are, if you've been listening to the show, we know we have protein, fats, and carbs. And so for protein, the importance of tracking protein is because you need enough of it. And most people don't get enough, you need about 0.7 to one gram per pound of your target body weight. But just to keep it simple, whatever you weigh, right now, if you just want to maintain your weight, you need to eat about that many pounds in grams. So if you currently weigh weigh 200, and you want to stay there, you need to shoot for one at 200 grams of protein every day. And you're probably getting a lot less if you haven't done this before. So that's the first huge revelation that most people have when they start tracking their macros. And then we have fats, most people get enough fats just naturally in their foods, we want to be around 30% of our calories. Some people can go a little less if they're on a lower fat diet, or they just don't need a lot of fat, the leaner foods. Or if you're in a fat loss phase, and others need a little bit more. If you used to eat keto, or you like a high kind of a high meat type diet with or a lot of eggs, you might want to have more fats in diets, that's totally cool. So fats are pretty flexible. But you need to be way above the essential minimum, which is something like 10% of your calories. And again, most people are unless they're deliberately going out of the way not to be. And then carbs. We talked about carbs so much on this podcast, and I just can't stop mentioning how critical they are. If you want to lift weights, and improve your body composition, and feel great. I have clients all the time who are stressed, they've had a history with maybe thyroid or adrenal issues. And they just may not have enough carbs, I mean, let alone the strength training, which is an important piece of it. They may have just been under feeding not just calories, but carbohydrates for years, and all of a sudden we get them to 200 or even 300 grams of carbs. And it's like whoa, I've got energy, I can go to the gym and lift, I can sleep, I don't have stress, all of a sudden my thyroid numbers good. My you know, reproductive hormones, look at everything all of a sudden starts to regulate just because of carbs. So tracking your food and understanding your carb intake and how that links to number one. How you feel is very important. I have a fellow lifter, I know he actually doesn't do well on a lot of carbs, he needs to stay below 200. It's not keto territory, but it's not where he could be. For an average person his size with his activity, he would know I would normally have around 400 400 to 500 grams of carbs, right? bigger guy, strong guy eats a lot of calories. But it doesn't work for him. Right? He needs more fats and protein in his diet and less carbs. And that's like a sweet spot. And he knows that because he listens to his body, but it takes a lot to get there. So tracking your macros is important. And here's the fourth macro alcohol don't forget alcohol. Alright, alcohol does have energy it has around seven calories per gram. We don't consume alcohol because it's good for our energy or anything else. We consume it because we like it because it's enjoyable because we get a buzz from the alcohol. We know why we consume alcohol any minor benefits from things like resveratrol, as I say, the antioxidants in red wine, for example, are just are practically negligible compared to the, the negative potential of alcohol, especially when over consume. So I want to add it in there, because you should track it. And if you're using apps that actually single it out specifically as a macro, it helps you see how much you're getting, which I mean, you probably know how much alcohol you're getting. And then that's a good, that's a good macro that you can tweak or reduce. For example, if you need more room in calories, you need more room for other more wholesome carbs, and so on. So just don't forget it is all I'm saying. All right, so that's number three of the, you know, top down approach here for breaking down your, your dietary pattern and your framework for selecting food, because this is really about food selection.

15:56

The most value that I got from this was the fact that I had someone that I could talk to about anything, and that there was going to be no judgement, it was just Well, here are your goals, here's the best way that you're going to achieve it. And then let's work together to help you feel inspired and motivated to do that. And there's a lot of people out there trying to be coaches, and not all of them have done the work and also just be a genuine person that is positive and coming from the heart in terms of wanting to help and Phillip really embodied all of those qualities, I would recommend him to just about anyone that's looking to achieve goals in that realm of their nutrition and building new habits.

Philip Pape 16:40

So now we're gonna get to number four. And so if we just stopped at calories and macros, this is where the If It Fits Your Macros crowd stops, and they're like, Okay, if, if I need 2000 calories, and I need this much protein, fats, and carbs, and then I'm just going to choose whatever food I want. How many donuts pizza, ice cream, gummy bears, coke, whatever. Now, yes, you can eat those and satisfy energy balance, and macros potentially, I mean, you've got to get your protein, of course, but you wouldn't satisfy number one, if you did that, most likely, you wouldn't satisfy feeling great having good digestion, managing your hunger, managing your energy, mood, and sleep. If you're eating all of these ultra processed foods all the time, even though yes, it could satisfy your energy balance and macro needs. So already, we've started to rule out that approach into approach that must by definition, incorporate things that make you feel good, which generally includes more whole and unprocessed foods, not 100% of the food the time, but 80 or 90% of the time. So let's get to number four now, which will further refine this approach. And that is the breakdown of your macros. And what I mean by that is within each macro category, there are specific types of those macros, that if you can track them, and then have targets around them, they will further induce you to select foods that serve you and your goals. So what am I talking about? carbs, let's talk carbs. The the type of carb that we want to track is fiber. Okay, fiber is critical for digestion, and gut health, your microbiome, for managing hunger. And it is mainly found in fibrous foods like fruits, vegetables, whole grains, seeds, nuts. So think about that list right there. And if you think about quote, unquote, diets that people have called Healthy over the years, like a Mediterranean diet, or a whole food diet, or something like that, they generally have those types of foods. But we don't again, we don't care about good bad this, that we just want to look at how much fiber is in whatever we are selecting. Even if you have that quest bar, it might have a decent amount of fiber from soluble corn, corn fiber, I'm not saying that's, you know, the quote unquote, best form to get but it's still fiber, it's still going to contribute to your digestion and your fiber needs, which doesn't rule it out. Right. So tracking your fiber, and then understanding the minimums you want to aim for, which the evidence supports is 14 grams per 1000 calories consumed. So if you consume 2000 calories, you want to consume 28 grams of fiber, right? So track your fiber. And if you're using an app that tracks all the macro breakdowns and the micronutrients, you'll know how much you're getting. And then you can tweak your food choices, right? If you're in a fat loss phase, and all of a sudden you're getting hungry. And then you notice your fiber is low. That might be the connection, and you increase your fiber and all of a sudden the hunger goes away. Boom, you've just realized that you want to have more fibrous foods in your diet. Now you start incorporating more vegetables, more greens, more fruits, all good things, okay, or not good things with things that serve you. Alright, the next macro to break down is fats. And there's two in particular I like to focus on saturated fats and omega threes saturated fat.

Philip Pape 20:06

The evidence has been, I don't want to say mixed, it generally leans toward showing us that too much saturated fat is associated with cardiovascular disease. But I know there's some confounding factors, like if you have a high saturated fat diet, but otherwise, you move a lot and have a healthy dietary pattern, like we see in some European countries in the Mediterranean, that it isn't linked with it, in which case, it's the other factors that are usually associated with someone who also consumes high saturated fats. Because where do we find a lot of saturated fat in western diets, it's in processed foods because of the types of fats and oils that they add to make them delicious. And there you go, you get an ungodly amount of saturated fat, versus what you would normally have if you just picked Whole Foods off the shelf. So here's my suggestion, track your saturated fat, and see if it's in the ballpark of 10% of your calories. If it's far above that, that could be an issue. But it could also sit and it could also suggest you're selecting foods that may not work for you long term. And maybe you're having a lot of ultra processed foods in there. 10% of your calories or a third of your fat as saturated fat. You track that. And then you can alter your food choices. I prefer getting saturated fat from your meat and animal products, and not adding a whole bunch of more saturated fat like don't add a ton of butter to everything, use a little bit of olive oil or coconut oil. Well coconut oil, also saturated fat, but just just use it sparingly for flavor. We don't have to go crazy, and we can keep that where we need it to be. The other type of fat is omega three fatty acids, which are primarily found in fatty fish, you know and fit in fish and fish oil. A lot of us myself included take fish oil supplement, it may not be necessary if you eat fish two or three times a week if you eat seafood. And it's just important to have decent amount of something from fish in your diet. Also, it's a great source of protein. So you get to from one there. And I wouldn't get too hung up on the Omega three to six ratio and the amount of DHA and EPA and all that just get enough. Okay, and then protein, the real, the only thing that's really important for protein here is that we are getting complete, complete essential amino acids, or complete sources of amino acids, which, if you eat animal products, you're going to get that if you are vegetarian or vegan, you're going to have to get creative with the combinations of plant foods, plant based foods and the quantities to make sure you get your protein. And if necessary, then supplement with P or rice protein. Again, if you don't eat meat, or meat, eggs, dairy, soy, meat, eggs, and dairy are the big sources for omnivores. And the specific amino acid that we care most about as lifters trying to improve our body composition is leucine, because that's the one that supposed to contribute the most toward muscle muscle protein synthesis in terms of triggering it. And so this is this goes back to the discussion about not only getting enough protein, but spreading protein throughout the day to meet that threshold. But honestly, the most important thing is just getting enough. And then the rest is optimization. And the point with this podcast today is are you tracking these things? Are you tracking not only the macros, but the breakdown of the macros? Like the fiber, saturated fat, mega threes and the amino acids, you don't have to track those. I'm just making a point that you need to get enough and have it spread throughout the day. And tracking will help do that. All right. The last the I'll say last but not least kind of not the lowest priority. But the final piece to optimize all of this and result in good food selection for you is going to be micronutrients. So micronutrients are vitamins and minerals. And I'm not going to specify any one particular vitamin or mineral how much to get, because there are a ton. And there are the recommended daily allowances out there the minimums, so called minimums and then there's the minimums for individuals. So if you're a woman, who is in say, your 30s, right, and you need you need iron, you need a lot more iron than anyone else, right. Once you get to menopause, it drops to about the same level as men need or when you're younger, it's lower. But right in the middle, the middle there, women need a lot more iron, and if you've been anemic for example, it could just come down to iron consumption. You may not need an iron tablets, you may not need any special intervention, just track your iron. And if it's way less than that recommendation for your gender and your age. Look for foods that have higher iron that might be red meat, which by the way is awesome. It tastes good. It's nutrition and it's perfectly nutritious and perfectly healthy for you. If it's natural, lean sources of red meat versus for example, processed meats which we should limit it But I've had clients go through this where they've had low iron over and over again in their blood work. And when we say let's just bump up the amount of burgers, yeah, you know, mate, make some burgers at home, or bump up the certain types of meat or plants that have higher iron, and all of a sudden, because the iron consumption is up in the optimal range, the iron in the blood rises to where it needs to be. That's not always the case. But in many cases, that's that's what's going on is we have a deficiency, whether it's B vitamins, vitamin D, calcium, the electrolytes like magnesium and potassium, which you can get all these from food, selenium, Selenium is great for thyroid health and your metabolism. And so if you have the rumen near calories and macros, eating a couple Brazil nuts every day could get your Selenium exactly where it needs to be sodium, you may not have enough, you may have too much depends again on your goals, and your bloodwork and everything else. And zinc is another one, which is also good for immune system. Alright, so I'm not going to get into every single nutrient. My point here is, I asked you to think about the ones that are important to you. Think about any deficiencies you have. Go ahead and get bloodwork if you need to or get a vitamin mineral test a screening, and then look for foods that are higher in those go to the search engine. And just type in foods high in X, you know, high in B vitamins, high potassium, BT B vitamins are something that for example, vegetarians, vegans may not get enough of all right, so that's the fifth one to the framework. If you can track your food, for at least I'll say three months while following this framework for selecting your food, then, and then use that tracking as feedback to close the loop. And make sure you're actually satisfied each of those priorities. I think you're going to be significantly more educated. You're going to be an intelligent person when it comes to selecting foods that are high in quality for you, that satisfy you that make you feel great that help you reach your goals. So let's just recap the five food tracking priorities as a as a summary for the episode. Number one, how does the move make you? How's the food make you feel? digestion, hunger, energy, mood, sleep and so on. Number two, what's the energy level in your food in terms of calories? So that you can meet your energy balance and are aware of how much you're eating and how much you burn? Number three macronutrients are you getting enough protein are your fats where you need to be and are you getting enough carbs and tying that to your how you feel your energy recovery. Number four, the macro breakdown the sub macros if you will of carbs which would be fiber, fats, which would be saturated fat, Omega three, and protein which would be having complete amino acids. And then number five would be micros, micronutrients, vitamins and minerals, tracking those and making sure you get enough for your needs. Wits, & Weights community if you want to jump on a free 30 minute nutrition momentum call, just reach out using the link in my show notes. I'm not going to sell your pitch on anything, but I will help you gain perspective and guidance. For example, on the things that we talked about today, we can jump into those details if that's where you're struggling and figure out where you need to be to get on the right track toward looking and feeling your best. It's just you and me. We're coming together coming up with a game plan. For the biggest thing holding you back right now. That could be your relationship with food. That could be your training approach. You might be having a weight plateau. Whatever it is, we're going to dive deep so that you have concrete steps to break through that barrier and get closer to your results. Again, just use the link in my show notes and go ahead and book a free 30 minute nutrition momentum. Call with me. Next week for episode 60. We have an incredible interview with Andy Baker. Andy is a highly sought after strength coach. He's my personal barbell coach. He's the co author of two best selling books including the starting strength gray Brook grey book called practical programming. And you're going to learn all about mastering strength and programming to maximize your games. As always, stay strong and I will talk to you next time here on the Wits & Weights podcast. Thank you for tuning in to another episode of Wits & Weights. If you found value in today's episode, and know someone else who's looking to level up their Wits & Weights, please take a moment to share this episode with them. And make sure to hit the Follow button in your podcast platform right now to catch the next episode. Until then stay strong

Philip Pape 4/4/23 Philip Pape 4/4/23

Ep 58: Using High Energy Flux to Eat More, Burn More Fat, and Build More Muscle with Brandon DaCruz

This episode is jam-packed with knowledge about energy flux and the high energy flux lifestyle. It comes from no less than Brandon DaCruz, one of the brightest minds in the industry. I start off by asking Brandon about his background and what led him to fitness and coaching. Brandon shares that he started being active in weight-restricted sports at 10-11 years old, during which he was exposed to low energy availability and developed micronutrient deficiency. Brandon then proceeds to tell us about the similarities between his athletic profile and that of the general population. Then, we dive into energy flux and its benefits, such as how you can eat more, burn more fat and build more muscle. Most importantly, we talk about how jumping in aggressively is not the key, but strategically easing yourself into a high energy flux lifestyle is the way to go.

Brandon DaCruz is an online nutrition and physique coach, educator, internationally published fitness model, and National Level NPC competitor. He has been featured in publications like Men’s Fitness Magazine, Muscular Development, Bodybuilding.com, and the Alan Aragon Research Review, where he’s been a contributing author. He uses an evidence-based approach to help his clients achieve their goals sustainably.

__________
👩‍💻 Schedule your FREE 30-minute Nutrition Momentum Call with Philip here.
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Today you’ll learn all about:

[2:22] Brandon's background and personal journey
[7:28] Parallels between the his athletic experience and the general population
[12:20] Why Brandon can relate with many people
[15:43] What is energy flux?
[22:29] Benefits of the high energy flux lifestyle
[34:58] The process of switching to the high flux lifestyle
[44:43] Body recomposition with the high energy flux lifestyle
[50:33] High flux state without the additional physical activity
[57:30] Where to find Brandon and learn more about energy flux

Episode resources:

Chasing Clarity: Health & Fitness Podcast: https://apple.co/3K1lDfm
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/brandondacruz_/
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/brandondacruzfitness
Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/@chasingclarityhealthandfit7532

IG: @witsandweights
Email: philip@witsandweights.com

🥩 Download your Free Ultimate Macros Guide and 50 High-Protein Recipes here

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Transcript

Brandon DaCruz 00:00

So along with improving a client's ability to adhere, this approach helps them to improve their appetite regulation and hunger control, as moving more actually makes us more sensitive to satiety signals, so we can more easily manage our hunger and regulator energy intake on a daily basis. So this is a multi pronged benefit.

Philip Pape 00:19

Brandon DaCruz 02:19

Absolutely. Philip, thank you so much. And I feel like after that type of introduction, man, I'm done. I'm good. You covered it all. And we can let it be. But I hope that I'm able to rise up to those standards and really deliver a lot of value to both yourself, and also your audience.

Philip Pape 02:32

Man. And I know you will, because you know, every episode, you're on every show, I want to listen to it, because it's such good information. And you mentioned even before we recorded that, you know, you fit a lot into a short time. And that's okay, right? Because we're gonna get a lot of value. So do my best. Yeah. So let's give the audience a little bit of a twist on that background. And it's small chance they don't know you yet. So you've had this impressive career, you continue to help countless of people. But I'd like to know, what were those one or two life changing moments that influenced the philosophy and the values that you have as a coach? Oh,

Brandon DaCruz 03:03

man, that is such an interesting question. Because I think this is actually something I really don't get to cover is really like my background story as to how I even got into fitness, or how I got into coaching in and of itself, because my background is a little bit unique as compared to most people. So what's funny is oftentimes, I'll get on podcasts, or I'll have these interactions with individuals. And a lot of times it's about a very, you know, targeted, you know, topic, so energy flux, for instance, but I just get on and we start going right into the nation, yet rarely have I spoken about, like my own personal journey. So I hope, you know, I knew that you were interested in doing this. So I hope by doing so by sharing something with your audience, it will help to provide some insight as to why I'm so passionate about this, especially about coaching and then also why I'm always in this pursuit of expanding my education as my my goal in life really, on a daily basis is to learn more so I can serve more. So really, when it comes down to it, I had quite a bit of a different introduction to training and nutrition than many others that I've encountered and in space. And really what it comes down to is when I was a kid, you know, growing up, I was really competitive athlete, and I ended up becoming very focused, and unfortunately narrow mindedly focused in weight restricted sports, including martial arts, and then also endurance sports, like cross country indoor and outdoor track. And if you really think about the commonalities within these sports, you'll see that they have a weight control aspect to them, we're being lighter was seen as being an advantage. So I started getting told very early on we're talking 10 or 11 years old, by my coaches that I needed to watch my weight, I need to watch my food intake, which ended up resulting in me getting or developing disordered eating habits and suffering from what's now known, you know, what's been teased out in the literature as relative energy deficiency and sport. But at that time, that term hadn't even come into existence, because this was the early 2000s. And the concept of the actual concept of relative energy deficiency in sport wasn't recognized or quaint until the International Olympic Committee actually put out a consensus statement in 2014. So I'm about 14 years behind that, unfortunately. But um, I was basically in a situation of what's called low energy availability, where I would pretty much be training three to four hours a day, you're under fueling that activity in order to keep my weight down and stay within my weight classes. So doing due to being in this constant state of low energy availability, I developed a ton of micronutrient deficiencies, you're gonna notice a lot of commonalities of things I speak about, because of the experiences I dealt with previously. So if anyone's familiar with my content, they'll know I'm all about nutrient density. Well, it comes from the fact that I've suffered the ramifications of micronutrient deficiencies, I talk a lot about hormone health. And that came from literally having, you know, the hormone profiles of like an elderly individual in my teens due to this relative energy deficiency, and then also other injuries. So in my early teens, you know, I was dealing with all these issues, and what it really, you know, amounted to was having a spent about a year or period of time focused on rehabilitating these injuries. And at that time, my entire focus was on sports. So I did anything I needed to do to be able to get back into play. Well, luckily, despite the fact that a lot of these terms, and these conditions were unknown, in like the scientific literature, or even the medical, you know, community at the time, I was sent to a physical therapy clinic or facility ran by two individuals, one that happened to be a bodybuilder and nutritionist, and one that was a powerlifter. So really, what they taught me was, they really showed me the importance of building my body of strength training, resistance training, and all the benefits that I could have. And then they also educated me about the importance of nutrition and the need, or the benefit of fueling my body, you know, alongside the training that I was doing. So I literally was taught the exact opposite of what I had been doing for years. So this experience helped me to start viewing food as fuel rather than something I needed to restrict. And it also kicked off both my interest and my love for both nutrition for training. And this is, you know, surmounted into, like my greatest passion in life, like learning about these things, applying them and helping others. So it was natural that when I got into what I wanted to do, you know, later on, so I actually got into this condition at 11, I sustained, you know, I kind of continue that until 14. And that's really where I found educators that can help me along my journey. So I owe so much to Fitness First and foremost, but also, educating myself about it has been something that has really allowed me to help both myself get out of these chronic states of low energy availability and the things that I suffered early on in life, but also to help others. So I feel that as coaches, many of us gravitate towards covering topics and issues that we've dealt with, and helping clients avoid the mistakes and the bad experiences we've encountered. So it's one of my main goals with my coaching as I take what I call a health centric approach to coaching, right aim to bridge the gap between research and information, and then practical application by striking a balance between what's optimal for a client's goals and what's realistic and practical within the constraints of their lifestyle. Because, you know, a plan could look perfect on paper, but if someone can't execute it, it's useless. It's worthless.

Philip Pape 07:51

Yeah. Yeah, man. So there's a lot of parallels in what you're talking about, with what I hear from the general population, even who who have not had the athletic background you did and go through the relative energy deficiency from that perspective, you've probably seen your clients yourself many average clients who have done the yo yo diets and they've been in this constant state of dieting, I imagine it's pretty much the same thing. It's the same concept. And I know I don't always think of it in terms of a micronutrient perspective, even though it's one of the consequences. But I think it's helpful for people to do that. And then you talked about the building and Food is fuel and, and adding, adding, adding, not restricting it's kind of the fundamentals behind a lot of what we're talking about here. So do you see that? Would you say the parallels are that close? Or are there some differences between that athletic profile that you experienced versus the general population?

Brandon DaCruz 08:36

So I believe they they land on a spectrum? So what I was doing was training three to four hours a day, do I see that with my my lifestyle, our general population, right? No, but here's the thing with within my coaching, I don't coach just one niche. That's something I've never done. I've been coaching at this point for 10 years. And I never have, you know, a lot of people always ask me, like, what's your target population? Or what's your niche demographic? And I've never taken

Philip Pape 08:56

what your ideal client avatar? Yeah, I

Brandon DaCruz 08:58

get that question. Here's the thing I don't have when I specifically did that for a very purposeful reason. The reason behind that was I wanted to gain experience with people of all walks of life and all backgrounds. So really, if you were to ask me, like, what does my roster look like, I have everyone from lifestyle Leeson Gen pop gym, to I've taken guys to Olympia level stage, you know, that are competing at the highest level of sport in the IFBB. So I have such a wide spectrum of individuals that I work with, that it's caused me work no more. So what it's done is it's pushed me to learn more, so I could serve them better. And then also has really stretched the limitations of the bounds of my knowledge where I've had to keep digging, digging into both the literature and then also what I could apply in practice, and has caused me to learn a lot more. So at this point in my career, I work with a lot of, you know, business owners, I work with a lot of other fitness professionals. I work with a lot of advanced clientele. So the majority of people I work with at this point are intermediate or advanced, and they're really trying to get to that next level. However, I've worked with everyone you could think of with all different states have both, you know, in terms of psychological issues, but also physiological issues. So when we really look at the, I guess parallels between what I went through and what I see with the average clientele so if we really think about the average person, they've died many times in their life, I'll tell you, I do a very invasive or, you know, extensive consultation with people after that. And I've never, in the last at least five years, I have not had one person come to me once that has not been through multiple dieting cycles before. And that could be due to what I put out. So that's what I attract. However, the average person that I work with personally has went through multiple coaches, they've been through a lot of field programs they've read, they've lost weight to regain lost weight to regain. And again, they've been through these chronic cycles of yo yo dieting and this recidivism rate, where they've felt like a failure in the process, they've been able to attain a goal in terms of losing fat, you know, and we see that in the literature, we see that seven out of eight people that go into a fat loss diet, so approximately 86% of individuals who go into a fat loss phase will lose fat. So it's not that diets don't work. However, we do see a a very large recidivism rate where one year after completing a diet, generally 70 80% of individuals will have regained all the weight they lost. In two years of completing that diet, that statistic goes up to 85%. Within three years, we see between 95 to 97% of individuals who have lost weight will regain that weight. So it's not that we feel the actual weight loss process, we feel the maintenance process. And that's where I find a lot of lifestyle clients have been where they've been in this chronic state of over restriction and then over consuming. And so during the cyclical period, where they're never really at energy balance, they're never really fueling themselves appropriately. And they're also not where they want to be. So they continue to push themselves with this typical or prototypical approach of eat less, exercise more, and we're going to speak about some of the fallacies of that and why there's a better approach to it. However, there are a lot of commonalities between, I would say, within a spectrum, so I feel like I encounter or I see a lot of people in low energy availability, which is the number one underlying cause of relative energy deficiency, what do people have an heir to that total, you know, realm of relative energy deficiency, which we really do see in more athletic populations. So I have had individuals in CrossFit or in ballet dancers, I've seen endurance athletes come to me in that state. It's not as severe for most general population clients. But I will say, if you look a lot of my content, I cover a lot of the concept of metabolic adaptation. So you know, the down regulations we see that are diet induced, and I see a lot of people in a downregulated state.

Philip Pape 12:19

Yep. And I think it's important for the listener who's who's hearing this to say, hey, not only am I not alone in this history that Brandon's talking about here, just about everybody, you just said, pretty much every client you've seen has gone through this I have you have everybody has. So I mean, it's such a common thing that and so this is this kind of advice is applicable, even though you do also have that with that breadth and depth of knowledge. And I know you have that encyclopedic knowledge, always pull out on these podcasts. But before we get to the topic, I don't want to let you go too quickly on the personal stuff, because I do want to dig in one one more thing. You said you don't have too much opportunity to talk about that on show. So now I'm wondering, is there anything you've never shared on a podcast that you want people to know? Or would get people to know you better?

Brandon DaCruz 12:59

You know, I don't know if there's anything in particular that I've held back purposely. But really, when it comes down to it, I think that what a lot of individuals have to realize is that when you see a coach that has a lot of experience and knowledge in a sector, it can come from multiple avenues. But when you hear me speak on a topic, a lot of people like you you just mentioned, like an encyclopedia acknowledge of things or an ability to recite a lot of information. And the real reason that I'm able to do that is because a lot of the things I speak on, I've went through myself, we're talking about I've went through periods of low energy availability, I've went through the body fat overshooting effects, where you know, I've competed 15 times on season offers, I'll tell you the first time that ever went through a contest prep, I texted my coach the morning after the show asking for what do we do now? You know, at the time, there was no reverse dieting. This is more than 10 years ago. And so I was looking for a plan to transition out. And he never answered me again. And so despite me paying for the, you know, you know, an elongated panic. It was like you got this stage and you're done. Go get a cheat meal. And I never hear from you again. And so I went through one I had actually a trip right after I had a business trip that I went on the I actually flew out the morning after that first show. So it's now in a new environment, I didn't have access to normal, you know, normal food. At the time, there was no Uber, there was no Uber Eats for that matter. And so I was really limited. And I ended up going through a massive rebounding that not only hurt me physiologically in terms of, you know, gaining excess adipose tissue, having inflammatory markers, you know, inducing greater levels of insulin resistance or losing insulin sensitivity. But it also psychologically hurt me because I went from being the best shape of my life. And two weeks later, when I returned from this trip, not only did I not recommend it myself, but a lot of my friends in the gym didn't either. And then I'm getting all these comments. So what a lot of people need to realize or what I would like to share with people is I've been where you are. And I've went through these experiences. And the reason I have such a great amount of knowledge on these topics that I speak on quite frequently is because I'm a big proponent of practicing what I preach. So I don't just you know, I always tell my clients I live in and I love it. So any of these things that you hear me speak about, I'm pulling from my own personal practice as well as having applied it with other individuals, but also a lot of the Reasons why I have a, I guess a depth and a breadth of knowledge on a lot of topics is because I've suffered from these things I've been insulin resistance, I've had you know downregulated bloodwork, I've went through the metabolic adaptations, I have seen what the, the negative consequences of being in a low fluoxetine that we'll speak about later, is where you're eating less, and you're essentially unable to do anything, you're pretty much you know, besides your, your exercise, and your training sessions and your mandatory cardio that you're doing, you're basically like a slug on the couch, because you're so downregulated in terms of all your internal processes. So a lot of these things, it's through the experience that I went through myself. And I think that's really what differentiates a lot of people. There's a lot of individuals within our space that claim to be evidence based. And don't get me wrong, they have a lot of intellect. And they have a lot of knowledge on a topic, but they've never applied it in the trenches. And that's what really differentiates coach's knowledge without application is useless. So you can know all the statistic, you know, all the studies in the world. But if you had the inability, or you don't have the experience having applied booths with actual individuals in the real world in a free living condition, you really need to be a little more cautious about how you put information out.

Philip Pape 16:07

Yeah, I totally agree. I mean, I would never have worked with anybody unless I personally had gone through a transformation myself that took four decades to figure things out and get to scratching the surface of where you're at. And then actually starting to help people and realizing that everyone is so different. We're all the same, but we're different, right? So the principles apply to everyone. But the individual methods and applications may differ. So I want to unleash the beast here and get into the topic, right? Let's just talk about energy flux, and high energy flux lifestyle, because I don't think I had heard that term until you brought it up. And even looking at the literature. It's not it's not like all over the place, like some other topics. So what is it? What are the different types that someone can be in?

Brandon DaCruz 16:44

Actually art. So you know, it's funny that you comment on that, because this is actually a an approach, which I'll definitely go into detail and explain. But I just want to give a little caveat, because it is something that I started utilizing in the trenches first. And I don't want to say reach out research caught up. But there's a lot of things that when we look at evidence based practice, it's a three pronged approach. So eight is the experience is the body of literature, what the literature states on a topic, then it is the experiences and the expertise of the practitioner, which in our case, heart is us as the coach. And then it's also the preferences and the abilities of the client themselves. So this was actually a philosophy or an approach that I didn't have an aim for. But I was utilizing since 2015, or 2016. And it was a rough approximation of what it is today. However, in 2018, they actually put a term to it. So Chris Melby, put the term energy flux to it. And so then at that point, I was able to pull some literature, but I was looking at things going back to the early 2000s, where there didn't have a term for it, but I was seeing the practical application and the benefits of it. So really, you know, energy flux technically refers to our state of energy turnover in the body. So basically, the concept centers around the relationship between the amount of energy we consume on a daily basis, and how much energy we expend through all forms of physical activity, including both our intentional exercise and our daily movement. So any forms of physical activity, which would essentially contribute to that physical activity energy expenditure. So essentially, what we're looking to do with using energy flux is to get to a state of energy balance, which can be reached using either a low or a high energy flux approach, which will depend on the amount of calories we consume, and the amount of activity we engage in on a daily basis. So if we're in a low energy flux state, we'd be maintaining our current body composition and our current body weight through eating a low amount of calories coupled with low activity levels. And as a coach, I have a ton of individuals who come to me who have either hit a wall or a plateau in their fat loss progress, or have, you know, this really long history of dieting, and when I do a consultation with them, and I look over their data, I'm looking over all their sheets, I usually find that many of them are in this low energy flux state, whether they intend to be or not, or whether they realize it or not. So this isn't a term that people come to me and say, Hey, Brandon, you know, I'm in this low flux state, can you get me out of it? I mean, give me some, right. But it is something that when you had the knowledge on a topic, you're able to, especially when you have knowledge on something, you also have experience dealing with it, you're able to spot it out more. And really what this comes down to is, it's because many have died using that prototypical eat less approach as their calorie intake has gotten lower, their total daily energy expenditure has dropped. And with that their metabolic rate has slowed down as well, as a result of the metabolic adaptation that comes along with weight loss. So from the energy in perspective, they're consuming very little calories, but the energy in like, what we have to realize is energy in and energy outside the energy balance equation are closely tied to one or the other. So as they've continued to eat less in an effort to lose weight, their knee levels have significantly dropped as well. And this is why, you know, many are in this low flux state, whether they realize it or not, as they've spent significant periods of time putting less energy into the system in the form of food, and they're getting less energy expenditure out as a result of eating less and thus moving less. So eventually, they get into this place where they either can't, you know, eat less, you know, they hit this wall, you know, I mean, whether it's for compliance or it's due to exhaustion or dietary fatigue or whatever it may be more or they incur so many adaptations on the energy expenditure side of things that they plateau and reach a state of energy balance. But they do so in a manner where they're eating very little and don't really have the energy to move much. So they're in this downregulated, low energy flux state. And this is what I often refer to as a restriction based model of maintenance. Meaning if we try to stay lean, using this approach, we're going to have to restrict calories long term over the long term to do so which if you really think about it, like if you're in this dieted down state, that's not only, you know, unsustainable, it's not realistic. And it's not a desirable approach for any of us. None of us want it, you know, we might do a 12 week or 16 week fat loss things. But we don't want to be that, in that perpetual state of dieting, we don't always want to be in this energy restricted state. Now, on the opposite side of the energy flux spectrum, we have what I refer to as the high energy flux approach. And when we're in a high energy flux approach, we're able to maintain both our body and our body composition by eating more and being more physically active, which allows us to increase our calorie intake much higher than it is in this lower energy flux state as the increase in activity is keeping us in energy balance. So we're able to eat more and stay lean, despite eating more, because it's actually acting almost like a buffer, that activity is buffering out those extra calories. So being in this high energy, flaxseed is more of what I like to consider an abundance based mindset or an abundance based model of maintenance, meaning you put more energy into fueling your body. And as a result, your body is able to burn more calories, because it has significant energy availability, to fuel all these processes. So fundamentally, when we look at the two, the biggest difference difference between whether we're in a low flux, or a high energy flux state is how active we are, and how many calories we're eating to match our level of activity. And here's the thing, I want to be very frank and transparent about this, because a lot of times when I speak about this on podcast, a lot of people kind of take the information that I that I put out there and they say, Oh, we can only do this through high flux. That's not what I'm saying, you know, you could stay lean through either approach. However, within my experience, coaching, I've seen the high flux model tend to work better, as most of us we have to be honest, we have to be transparent. Most of us prefer to eat more, it's less, it's much more sustainable. And also, most people not only from a physiological standpoint, but also a psychological standpoint, being in a state of chronic restriction is something many of us don't want to do, nor can do year round.

Philip Pape 22:16

Yeah, I see that all the time branded with clients, a lot of female clients come to me they've been restricting for years, the first thing we want to do is get them out of that anymore. And they're so surprised often when they find it, they don't gain weight, right, because they're moving more as well at the same time, and then go into that fat loss phase and can eat two or 300, or more calories more than they had the last time they did this. And unfortunately, there's diets out there like some that I'm not going to name one starts with an O that actually encourage that low energy flux approach with hay, go on these restricted calories and stop moving. And it's just a

Brandon DaCruz 22:46

sub exercise exercise not effective for weight loss. That's what they'll say.

Philip Pape 22:50

Exactly, exactly. It's crazy. Okay, so let's talk about some of the benefits. I do like to nerd out on this stuff a bit. Whether the listener too, does or does or not, but if they've stuck with me subscribe to this podcast they generally do. Some of the benefits are, are beyond beyond just what you said, which is the sustainability and the ability to eat more and do this for the long term. Things like thermogenesis and fat oxidation, right? And satiety, right, because you're eating more and health markers, like maybe we can explore some of those other benefits from high energy flux lifestyle.

Brandon DaCruz 23:22

Absolutely. And so really, when it comes down to it, one of the primary reasons why I've spoken about the high energy flux lifestyle on so many podcasts over the years, why I've done presentations, like I've flown out across the country and done presentations on this. And why also I'm such a proponent of it is because, you know, because of the benefits that I've seen, not only myself because this is something I utilize day in and day out or during specific phases within my own life and have used utilize for years. But I've also utilized it with hundreds of clients I've worked with over the years. And as a coach, I try to take principles that are research backed, and then I try to find the best way to apply them to the individual client that I'm working with. And I found that the high energy flux approach has allowed me to get a great result in many of my clients and also have provided them with a ton of physiological, psychological and metabolic health benefits. So really, when it comes down to it, I truly believe that when it comes to coaching clients in the real world, we cannot separate a client's psychology from their physiology as our brain and body are closely tied, and the body isn't going to respond if our minds aren't in the right place. So one of the most important benefits that I see clients get from taking a high flex approach is being able to better adhere to eating a nutrient dense, micronutrient rich diet as moving more allows them to eat more and maintain a higher calorie intake which leads to many other downstream effects. So within that, you know this concept or this approach are really what I like to refer to as a lifestyle because it's all encompassing, it's just not just one thing, it's just not walking. It's it's a multifactorial approach to improving your body composition, your health and your life. But really within this lifestyle, we're gonna see better diet adherence and consistency, which when we really think about it from a coaching conceptual framework, that is the foundation Under making progress, we're not able to adhere to a program, we're not able to do it not only one, it's not about what you can do one day, you know, it's about what you can do day after day, and be able to stay consistent enough to elicit a compounding effect. And within that, we're going to be able to get clients because they're eating more, they're going to get more food variety, more food flexibility, they're going to be able with that increased calorie budget to get a greater micronutrient intake. So now we're going to upregulate all these internal processes, we're getting more minerals, more vitamins, and cofactors, necessary for not only energetic processes, but also for the upregulation of hormones. So I'll tell you personally, I have a lot of females that come to me in this low flux state. But also when I'm checking your bloodwork and your lab analysis, I'm looking at down regulations and markers. So from being in a state of low energy availability, I'm seeing down regulations and estradiol, I'm seeing down regulations and progesterone, sometimes they're suffering from amenorrhea, which is a loss of the menstrual cycle function. And really, technically, that would be the loss administration for three, three cycles, or more, or technically 90 days or more. But also within that one of the most common hormonal perturbations were hormonal dysfunctions that I see within clientele that come to me, or downregulation, is in thyroid production. So remember, thyroid is one of the most closely tied hormones to our metabolic function. So when we go into the state of low energy flux, where you're putting less energy into the system, you're getting less energy out, one of the ways in which our body does that you sit down regulate thyroid production, so we'll generally see decreases in T three, three, T three, T four and three, T four. And so within that you're burning less calories, because your body's trying to conserve energy in any way that it can. So we see hormonal downshift. But within this high flux model, I'm able to up regulate those processes, including increasing their thyroid production keys. Now, I'm not only providing them with enough calories to be able to upregulate that hormone production, but also the key and important micronutrients, selenium, zinc, iodine, things like that, that are necessary for the synthesis of thyroid and also the conversion of T four to metabolically active T three, I also within this increase in energy, we're getting improved energy levels. So along with improving a client's ability to adhere, this approach helps them to improve their appetite regulation, and hunger control, as moving more actually makes us more sensitive to satiety signals. So we can more easily manage our hunger and regulate our energy and take on a daily basis. So this is a multi pronged benefit. So not only is getting into this, this moving more eating more philosophy or approach going to allow you to eat more, so you're gonna be more satiated, but also, you're gonna be more sensitive to those be more in tune with your hunger cues. So you're not only eating more and getting fuller, but you're also having a better fullness response. And you're able to stop yourself from, you know, some of the, you know, I don't want to say bad, but some of the suboptimal habits that you might have had in the past and what I often get his feedback from clients that they feel fuller, and are better able to avoid a lot of the binge restrict cycles that they've had in the past, as now they're feeling themselves better on a daily basis. So it's not like they're going from their previous habits, which really was, you know, they were on one end of the spectrum where they were under eating during the week, and then going overboard on the weekend. So they were what I call a weekday Dieter, Monday through Friday, they're over restricting ourselves, they're skipping meals, they're fasting, they're doing all these, you know, fad diets, low carb, whatever it may be. And then on the weekends, they're going overboard, because now they have this insatiable hunger, and they have a dysregulation of their, their appetite in their satiety cues. And they're also in this low flux state where they're downregulated from having put themselves in a deficit where severe deficit all week, so now when they increase their calories on the weekend, they're more susceptible to that weight, and that that gain because now they're in a very large surplus, because they're in a state of positive energy balance. Now, when it comes to other benefits, you know, the high flux lifestyle is also something I've used to help my clients get lean and stay lean, as maintaining a high level of physical activity has been shown to be one of the key predictors of both Fat Loss Success and even more importantly, fat loss maintenance. And this is also something we see reinforced in research from places like the National Weight Control Registry, which if you're familiar with that it's essentially a database of successful dieters, and what habits they have. And so they look at individuals that have not only lost a significant amount of matter weight, but I've kept it off for a significant period of time. And what their data shows and finds is that one of the most common traits among those who have been successful in losing weight and keeping it off is they engage in very high amounts of physical activity daily. So what their studies have found is that those who have lost a significant amount of weight and have kept it off for a year plus average around 2500 calories burned through physical activity per week, where and when they actually did a step count estimate or they tracked these individuals actual activity levels came out to a little over 12,000 steps per day. So these individuals that are maintaining weight loss are engaging in high levels of physical activity. So they're hitting their steps, they're making sure that they're getting their walks in, they're very physically active. And that's one of the key principles behind being able to not only lose weight, because many of us can do that. However, being able to keep it off long term because a lot of these individuals have maintained they have to maintain at least 30 pounds of weight loss. However, the average person the National Weight Control Registry as of last update to it has maintained at least 30 kilograms So around 65 to 66 pounds over a course of three years. So that's significant weight loss that they've been able to not only lose, but maintain, which is a huge victory. Now, I've also seen many metabolic benefits in the clients, I've transitioned into high energy flux approach, as the increase in activity allows for better insulin sensitivity, better nutrient partitioning, and increases with called glute for translocation. So now we're able to upregulate the uptake of glucose in the cells without the need for insulin. And within that, I've also seen better blood glucose management. So for instance, one of the I really like habit stacking, so I'm sure you're familiar with James clear, you know, atomic habits, but I'm really like doing things where I'm adding an activity to already existing activity. So one activity we all do on a daily basis, no matter who you are, whether you train or not, we all eat. And so what I have my clients do is I had them utilize post meal walks. And that's been shown to cause a significant decrease in the area under the curve in terms of both insulin elevation and duration, but also helps with blood sugar management and regulation. And so this is something I see reflected in my clients facet and postprandial blood glucose metrics, as well as in their labs. As you know, I'm a big proponent of monitoring health, I always say healthy bodies responsive by so I'm big on monitoring things like insulin sensitivity, and and those who have had increased their activity and get into this high flux state. I've seen improvements in markers, like their HPA one see their triglyceride levels and their facet insulin levels, in addition to those blood glucose metrics that I track on a weekly basis. And so we're seeing multiple multipronged benefits. I mean, there's so many that we can go through from a metabolic health perspective to a training perspective, and, you know, anything that you want to get into.

Philip Pape 31:33

And I think, I think, I think people are sold on this read as potentially a really good, good idea. You know, you were actually I've probably the first person I heard talk about the postman walks and comparing it to type two diabetes medication. And I tend to refer to that a lot when people talk about blood sugar regulation.

Brandon DaCruz 31:50

Absolutely. And that's actually a fascinating study that they've done on that. So if you want me to expand on that a little bit more, just so the audience gets a little understanding of that. I've been doing it. Alright. So in the early 2000s, they did a lifestyle intervention study. And really what that looked at was looking at the number one prescribes, which is a great drug. It's called Metformin. And now I see that, and keep in mind, some of the experience that I had my father died of diabetes, so I was, you know, helping a diabetic my entire life. But also, I've worked with many people with pre diabetes, insulin resistance, type two diabetes, and even type one diabetes. And now the number one prescribed drug for type two diabetes prevention, and treatment is a drug called Metformin, aka glucose rush. So what they did was, they took a controlled study, and he did a three year long term study looking over the course of different interventions. So they had a control group, they, which did nothing, no intervention, they had a lifestyle group within that lifestyle group, but they had to do was 150 minutes of walking, you know, just brisk walking and physical activity per week, plus, they had them lose 7% of their body weight. And so it was both diet and lifestyle intervention. So both movement and, you know, nutritional interventions, and then they had a Metformin group only. But within the Metformin group, the caveat to that is that they use a dose at the higher end of the spectrum. So it was if we're going to see significant reductions in the industry, or the likelihood of type two diabetes development, we would see it from that high dose, I believe, if I'm remembering off the top of my head, it was around 1800 to 1800 50 milligrams. And now the top end of what you would see endocrinologist or doctors prescribe Metformin that is 2000. Now the starting dose is 500. So this was a very potent dose of metformin. And so within that, they tracked people over the course of three years. And they found that those in the lifestyle group were twice, those who utilize the lifestyle intervention, meaning walking consistently over the course that three years and they lost and maintain that 7% reduction in body weight, we're almost twice as or twice as unlikely to develop type two diabetes as those Metformin groups. So that's where we get that that quote, where walks the post meal walks are twice as effective Estimate form, and I believe it was, it was like a 30% difference between the two. So it wasn't exactly twice however, it was very significantly sets are statistically significant in terms of the differentiation between the improvements and the reductions in type two diabetes, advancement in the lifestyle group as compared to the best drug we have in the market. So when I say movement is medicine, I mean, there is some we have research and then we also have like the practical things we see in the trenches. And so it really, that's just research that reinforces so many of the benefits that we see, especially from like a blood glucose perspective and metabolic health perspective, we see that, you know, it lowers the insulin area under the curve, it lowers blood glucose levels. And also really, when it comes down to it when we have muscle muscle is our biggest metabolic buffer, it essentially acts as a glucose sink. So the more muscle you have, the more you move it, the more it's almost like a drain. So if you have the sink, muscles, a sink, you keep building muscle, you're gonna expand that sink so you can you could fill up more water, more carbohydrates in that sink, but also, physical activity and training acts as a dream. So the more activity you do, the more active you are in your day to day life, the more you can drain that sink and put more in there. So it's it's almost like allowing you to Increase your carbohydrate uptake, your carbohydrate tolerance, and then your ability to live a life of abundance because a lot of us like eating carbs, we like, you know, having high carb meals and things that's where we also don't want to suffer the deleterious effects of things like insulin resistance, pre diabetes, or type two diabetes, which is on the rise, especially in today's generation,

Philip Pape 35:18

a lot there man out there to unpack right. And so, I mean, the principle that we're talking about here is the energy flux, lifestyle, the movement, the being active, and training and building muscle and all the things we talk about all the time as, Hey, these are the big pillars of, of a whole body, you know, nutrition approach and living a healthy lifestyle. Also have the side benefits of all these health, health health benefits and let you eat more. Who doesn't want all of that? Hey, this is Philip. And I hope you're enjoying this episode of Wits & Weights. If you're finding value in the content and want to stay up to date with all our latest episodes, be sure to hit the Follow button on your favorite podcast platform. By following you'll get notified whenever a new episode comes out. And you won't miss out on knowledge and strategies to level up your health and fitness. All right, let's get back to the episode. So somebody might be listening and thinking, okay, from a practical perspective, if I had the the typical story most people have of the yo yo dieting, and I want to start this and I have a little excess weight to lose. Because what we're talking about her mostly is either maintenance or fat loss. Generally, maybe we can also talk about on the building side where this is relevant. But maintenance and then fat loss. Where would someone start? Because I'm guessing you don't want to just get them right into fat loss and the stressor that comes with that, as well as all the other habits that they haven't developed? How exactly would you walk them through that to develop an energy flux lifestyle, and then say, Okay, now let's hit the gas pedal, because this fat loss is going to be so much easier.

Brandon DaCruz 36:43

Alright, so I'm going to try to do this as concisely as possible because it is a very detailed process. So if I was to take you through my process, we'd be on an hour consultation just discussing it just for you and I. And so I have so many different client avatars or different demographics that I work with that it's very client specific and person Pacific. However, the it comes down to a fundamental principle of coaching wishes to meet the client where they're at. So we have to get some things, we have to get some fundamental principles in check first and foremost. So first, I need to see their baseline level activity, I need to see their nutritional intake, the consistency, their dieting, history, their bloodwork, many other variables to take into consideration. However, if I have a general lifestyle client, for instance, if we do like a case study right now, and I have someone that comes to me, and they have say, 20 pounds, 30 pounds to lose, like the average average person that would come to me 30 pounds to lose, and they're in a state if you want to get that.

Philip Pape 37:36

Can I throw you some more variable? Let's say, let's say she's perimenopause, a female. Okay. Right. And getting that AB AB for abdominal fat, you know, with with changes, has hit many plateaus and feels like she just can't lose weight. It's just not possible. She can't lose weight. Right. And maybe she's straining maybe she's not she's probably not doing it properly yet. Right. And doesn't get maybe gets 5000 steps a day. That some good data to start with?

Brandon DaCruz 38:01

Yeah, absolutely. So first and foremost, if I get anyone in perimenopause, I'm going to do a large educational component on the efficacy and the necessity of resistance training. Because what do we see in perimenopause and the transition to menopause, which could be a five to 10 year transitionary period. And I tell you, I work with so many women in that transitionary period, what we see is we see perturbations in their hormone production. So essentially, what ends up happening is they're getting menstrual cycle dysfunction. So we're seeing elongated menstrual cycles, we're seeing the loss administration eventually because that is what the menopause is, is 12 months without without a menstrual cycle. So within that, we are seeing down regulations and extra dial production and progesterone, but with that decrease in estradiol comes deleterious effects to cardiovascular health. So we see lipids increase, we see a higher propensity to cardiovascular disease, we see increased adiposity. But oftentimes, you actually look at the literature, women that are going through perimenopause don't actually gain an excessive amount of weight, it might be a few pounds, however, what they do is they have a higher predisposition towards storing fat instead of subcutaneously to visceral adiposity. And now the visceral adiposity is in the central cavity. So we see it around the organs and around the gut. So that's why we'll see women, a lot of times they'll have your waist expand, you'll have, you'll be taking on more of an Android fat pattern, which is more along the lines of how guys store fat. And what comes along with that is if you actually looked at the literature before with pre menopausal women as compared to men, men are at a much higher predisposition towards cardiovascular disease because of our predisposition towards storing visceral adiposity. However, once we get into perimenopause and postmenopausal females, their propensity or their likelihood of cardiovascular disease increases astronomically. And that's because of the downregulation. And estrogen along with the decrease in estradiol comes a loss in bone mineral density, which is where we see an increase in fracture risk, we see osteoporosis and all these other deleterious effects of lowered bone mineral density. So the first thing I'm doing is getting that female increasing energy flux through resistance training, which is an approach I take with them. Any, because many people come to me, they're already, you know, resistant training junkies, I normally work with intermediate individuals, I never be honest with you at this point in my career, I never had someone come to me at this point where they say they've never touched me. So it's never like I have a newbie that hasn't had weight training experience. However, this was the case where this individual either didn't have a training experience for has just won a prolonged period of time, without retraining, if I hadn't put you know, we had a, you know, essentially a prioritization list, I'm gonna make sure they resist and train first. And technically, that's going to increase energy expenditure. So we're going to increase energy flux through that increase in movement. And I'm gonna get her doing laps around the gym and increasing steps through that. And then, but you said 5000 steps, that's, that's spot on, you know why, because right before COVID, they had done some analysis of the average American step count, and the average was around 5100 steps per day, that's what the average American was getting pre COVID. And so within that she's getting 5000 steps per day. But really where we see like the baseline level needed for I don't want the optimal metabolic function, but enhance metabolic function is around 8500 steps per day, however, we have to realize the integral part of coaching is meeting people where they're at. So within energy, first, what I would do is first and foremost, just like I would do with her body weight, and with her calorie intake, I want to get a maintenance on everything, I want to get an ability to register exactly what she's doing consistently, not just one day that she gives me data for. So I would do is over the course of one to two weeks, I would track specific variables, I would have her track her body weight daily, so that I can ease out any fluctuations in body weight and get an average weekly scale weight. First and foremost, then I'm going to look at her average caloric intake and see if she anyway, is she losing weight, if she's maintaining her weight over two weeks, her weight staying stable, enter calorie intake stable, I know what her maintenance calorie intake is. And then I'm also doing the same thing with step tracking. So I'm having her get a pedometer or a Fitbit weren't wearing something that can consistently it doesn't have to be it's not about the accuracy, it needs to be about the precision and the reliability of data. So there's a difference between, you know, accuracy, and then validity and reliability just needs to be reliable. Because a lot of these fitness trackers, they're off, especially in terms of their energy expenditure stuff, so I don't utilize it for that. However, even if they're off 10% on steps, it doesn't matter, because I just need to see what her baseline is. So if she comes in, and over those two weeks, she is stable at 1600 calories. And she is currently you know, her weight stable at 160 pounds, she is she eating 600 calories, and she's at 5000 steps per day. This is where first adjustment I'm going to make as on the nutritional front, so I always say eat more, move more, it's not move more first, because that's a big misconception, a lot of people automatically go to the move more first, really, I want to get her into better nutritional habits. First and foremost, I want to put energy into the system. So she has both the the energy from a fuelling perspective to engage in more activity. And also she's going to get an upregulation in energy production and just most likely non exercise Activity Thermogenesis just due to eating more and fueling yourself better. Obviously, I'm going to modify the quality of the diet, the food choices and all those selections from within that I'm going to slowly titrate it up. So a big fallacy that I see is that people will take a very drastic approach to energy flux with the approach that they take. So one of the you know, I'll tell you a perfect example. I recently just had someone contact me. And essentially what they did was they asked, or they told me a situation where one of their coaches had heard me on a podcast. And so he wanted to apply this energy flux approach. However, one of the issues with that was he aggressively increased steps way to in way too quick manner. So in this specific instance, this person went from 8000 steps that they were doing consistently. So they had track steps before they were an experienced trainee, they went from 8000 or 1000 to 15,000. Now, here's the thing that makes no physiological or rational sense, as what programming variable within coaching, would we double in the span of a week, like, Phil, hear me out, if you saw someone come to you and they had doubled their training volume in a week or they had doubled their calories in week, that drastic of an increase, not only is going to put so much stress in the system, it's going to throw so much noise into the signal, we can't even differentiate what's going on or how compliant that person can be or how consistent they can be with that. So really, it's about meeting them where they're at. If she's at 5000, I may just make a bumpy week of 100 calories and 1000 steps, see where she can respond. And from there, I'm gonna be moderating both her biofeedback in terms of how her body composition changes, especially we've added resistance training, we've improved your food quality, we've probably increased protein, you know, now she's most likely I see a lot of women in this situation where the recumbent and so she haven't had improvements in body composition, first and foremost, but also energy, she's going to have higher amounts of energy expenditure. So we've upregulated all these systems that have been downregulated. And that is an important component of people are especially women that are in perimenopause, because what we see is they have a redistribution not only of body fat in terms of storing more visceral fat, but they also have the loss in lean body mass due to the decrement in the hormones that they have. So that's why I said I would start with resistance training with this female in particular, because we need to offset that we need there's a catabolic stimulus in the system, essentially which is perimenopause. However, we need to balance that out with the anabolic stimulus of resistance training which is going to increase muscle protein synthesis. We're going to Couple that with nutrient timing with proper protein intake on a daily basis, as well as a protein distribution, making sure that she has many meals throughout the day in order to stimulate muscle protein synthesis, say every three to four hours. And we're going to be able to improve her body composition, her energy expenditure or energy levels, and really take a multifaceted approach to putting her into his eye high energy flux approach, but also mitigating a lot of the symptomology that she'll be experiencing due to being in this transitionary period to menopause.

Philip Pape 45:27

Yeah, yeah, that makes makes such sense. And I love that you just jumped right out with a strength training pillar number one, because that's, that makes such a huge difference. I've seen that with clients. And I do have more new newbie clients that haven't trained. And it's so rewarding to get them into that and just all of a sudden see all these extra benefits, you would you wouldn't think, including moving away from that obsession on the scale, as you started to see, you know, your waist size go down and the visceral fat start to get reduced and you feel better and all these things. Well, what am I community members she had asked Carol, he wanted to ask you a question about body composition, body recall, and fat loss for women over 40. Which is why I asked these questions because I have a lot of clients like that. And you basically just effectively laid out the fact that even at this maintenance level, you can start to achieve the body recomp. Is there any anything else going? Like? Would you keep a client like that in that state for quite a while just take advantage of that.

Brandon DaCruz 46:15

So honestly, if we go to the the topic of body recomposition, which is something I find fascinating, but first and foremost, there is that when I go through literature, I am looking through every single section, you could think of methodology section, I'm looking through limitations, I'm looking through the the author's discussion. And what's really interesting is there's a study that it's it's billed as a protein study, it's by long on April 2016, I believe it's the best recomp study that we have to date, they actually put these individuals there were former rugby players that had been D trained, they put them in a 40% deficit. So technically, they're not at maintenance, they're in a severe deficit. However, they did molt, they took a multifaceted approach. And so what they did was they utilized it was two groups. So they had a low protein group and a high protein group, a low protein group was at 1.2 grams per kilogram per day. And the high protein group, I believe, was at 2.4 grams per kilogram per day. And so utilize, and we're going to really speak on focus on high protein group, because those were the most, I guess, astronomical benefits that we saw. And something that's really applicable to anyone that has a body recomposition. All

Philip Pape 47:13

right, just to convert that that's a little over a gram per pound. Absolutely. So

Brandon DaCruz 47:16

2.2 grams per pound, would be technically one gram, so we're looking at about 1.1 grams per pound. So a high protein approach in a deficit. And so what they did was they use a multifaceted approach. But if you were to just read the abstract, you would never see this as a study, you really have to get the full text, if you look through all this stuff, but really, when you tease it out, they took the multifaceted approach. And this is what they did. They did a high protein approach, they use a large energy deficit, but they utilize it over a short period of time was 30 day trial. And so within that, they use six days of resistance training. So they did a combination of high intensity interval training, as well as you know, you know, higher volume, so moderate to high volume resistant training, hard training sessions to failure. So we have an effective stimulus. And then they had an activity component, which you have to really like tease through, you know, they don't actually overtly say that. But when you actually look at their predominant in their activity, data, they ravaging 12,000 steps per day. So it was multifaceted. High protein, there was high protein, moderate carbohydrate in that higher protein group, low fat. They did, it was an extreme deficit. That's not what I'm recommending. But they saw one of the most substantial increases in fat free mass and a loss in body fat within that 30 day period. And so they showed substantial recomp. So this is where we take those findings. And we apply it a little bit differently to someone that wants to recommit maintenance. So we're we include all these components that are necessary for body recomposition. So we're going to look at high protein intake, first and foremost. So we're maximally stimulated muscle protein synthesis, you know, if that person's at maintenance, or even if they're in a slight deficit, because really, when it comes down to body composition, I really like putting people right in a slight deficit, so we're oxidizing body fat. So we'll put them in a slight deficit, we put them at a higher protein intake. So they have, they're able to maximize muscle protein synthesis, you're able to rebuild and actually build tissue. And then from there, we're gonna utilize the combination of resistance training. So other high intensity effort is going to be in the gym. And then outside of that, we would use walks, we would use steps to get low intensity activity, that's non stressful. And actually, when you actually look at the the benefits, or the research behind walking, it's one of the only activities where it's going to, you know, not only decrease stress and cortisol, but you know, it's something that it's one of the only physical activities that are actually going to decrease cortisol and it puts you in that parasympathetic state. So it helps to balance out

Philip Pape 49:26

the stress. It's a form of recovery. It's a form of cardio that helps you recover. Yeah. And really, when

Brandon DaCruz 49:30

we look at like, I'll tell you, from my own experience with trainers, with trainees is actually seen improve their training performance because they have an upregulation their training capacity, so that improvement in aerobic fitness has a ton of carryover into their training performance and the recovery capacity. So not only is a recovery capacity improved in between sets, so I'm talking about you know, if I was to tell a client to do a higher rep set of hacks was prior to doing or utilizing this higher energy flux approach. They're gasping in between sets and they're needing three to five minutes. What they're able to do is really improved their work capacity, but it's mainly through the fact that they have better aerobic fitness, they have better nutrient delivery, they have better blood flow, which is helping all the recovery capacity, but they have better endurance and better aerobic fitness in between sets and in, in between workouts. So we're seeing this benefit, this multi pronged benefit. And then from there also, when you're more active, you have better aerobic fitness, you have better cardiovascular fitness, it applies to not only in the gym, a lot of times, we are always thinking, you know, especially as trainers, who is thinking very narrow mindedly in the one hour of the day that we spend in the gym, but it's benefiting all other aspects of our life. So with this woman, if she's a mother, for instance, I work with many, you know, mothers are business owners that are women that are, you know, typing individuals, they have so much going on, they're highly stressed. So now, instead of having them any hate classes, you know, breaking down their body in a catabolic state, and they're overly stressed and adding to that allostatic load, all their their stresses are contributing to, you know, decreases in sleep quality and increases in cortisol and all these negative ramifications. What I'm doing is I'm helping them distressed by doing an activity like walks in nature, I'm having them walk post workout, I'm having them walk in the morning and really be able to center their circadian rhythms. So they have better sleep quality at night, they're really focused, they have the recovery capacity and the ability to put all their intensity for that one hour of the resistant training session so we can maximize the body composition benefits. And also, we're getting the ability for them to eat more and get all the benefits of that increase in energy availability and micronutrient availability.

Philip Pape 51:25

Awesome. Yeah, I know that we talked about that all the time here. And it's one of the things that was a revelation to me, Brandon, back when I started training properly for the first time and realize it didn't really have to do any cardio as we know it, you know, and just walk more. I think it's a it's a wonderful thing, right? It's a wonderful way to live. So what about on the What about on the building side, it would seem to me that just by naturally being in a calorie surplus, and building muscle and training, you're, you're kind of naturally in a high energy flux lifestyle, I mean, is there a way you couldn't be in a building phase.

Brandon DaCruz 51:54

So here's the thing, there is a difference, you can technically be from the literature perspective, in a high flux state by just eating more and having your body weight go up. However, you're not getting the actual advantageous benefits that I'm speaking about all being a high flux state. So for instance, if you are in a building these however, you are becoming more sedentary, really, you're just allocating time towards the gym, and towards eating high amounts of food, technically, you are in a high flux state because your body weight is going up. So it's increasing your energy expenditure. Keep in mind that one of the the largest amounts, you know, if we look at our total daily energy expenditure, 50 to 60% of the calories you burn per day comes from our BMR, which is mostly tied to our amount of fat free mass and our total body mass in general. So for instance, feel if you're to gain 20 pounds, it's going to you know, increase your BMR, whether it's fat, or it's muscle, and so within that you're burning more calories, and you're technically eating more calories. So technically looked at it, and we're really technical about it, you're in a high flux state, but you're not in a high flux state that could apply to people that are overweight, actually. So actually, in the literature, they have sections where they look at obesity as a seed of high energy flux, but it's a negative adaptation of high energy flux, because your body is burning more, just due to the fact that you have more fat free mass and fat mass. And you're eating more, however, you're suffering from insulin resistance, metabolic syndrome, and all the deleterious effects of, you know, being, you know, over fat essentially. And so we want to make sure that we're coupling activity with the increase in calorie intake, as well as with the, you know, progressions, were making our training. So I would keep someone in a higher energy flux state and make sure that their step count is I don't want to say massively elevated, but is that a state at least at 500 steps or more per day, just due to the fact that we see better insulin sensitivity, we see better blood glucose clearance, we see better triglyceride clearance in resistance are in challenge tests, when someone is at 8500 steps per day or more as compared to 5000 steps and 2500 steps. And they've done, you know, exercise resistance studies where they've looked independently at those who have lower step counts, and they do exercise, but they don't get the metabolic benefits. So here's the thing. And this is a massive thing for those that are resistant training, especially to building things because, you know, I remember this philosophy where I came up in the board's early on in the 2000s. And a lot of the guys in the powerlifting, gym Wendler and guys like that, what they would say is, don't walk, if you could sit, don't stand, if you could lay like this, this philosophy, like do less essentially. And that's great for not expending a lot of calories and massively increasing your body weight, but a lot of deleterious effects come with that, you know, increase, increase in insulin resistance increases in fatness, you know, you know, triglyceride levels being off, you know, higher cholesterol, all these you know, higher blood pressure, all these deleterious effects. And we want not only a lean physique that looks well, we want it to, to function well and internally look healthy. And so within that, I would make sure that someone is at least staying active going for postnatal walks, I'm monitoring their blood glucose as well. So I'm looking at their indices of insulin sensitivity and that everything is going in a progressive fashion and within there's going to be periods of time that you're in a progressive building freeze for an extended period of time. And those markers get out of line, even if you're doing steps and that's where we pull back and we use a phasic approach, utilizing the principles of nutritional periodization to utilize something like a mini So I'm big fan of about a four to one paradigm. So four times the amount of time building. So say for instance, I'll give you a perfect example, if I had a client and we went through an eight month building phase, and now they're starting to see some of the detriments because we can't push just with like, with all things in life, you can't push in one direction too much before facing some consequences of that, or pacing, some pushback from the system. Because there's a price at play in everything and physiology for every give me there's a gotcha. So you keep pushing on the building phase, you keep pushing in a surplus, you're starting to amount and accumulate more body fat, you're starting to see decrements in your insulin sensitivity, your blood glucose is starting to rise, you're starting to see your appetite regulation be diminished. So now you're, you're constantly full, you're having digestive issues, you know, you just really don't have the desire to, you know, eat first and foremost, but also you're seeing decreases in your training performance, because you're constantly lethargic, that's when we need a pullback, and we utilize something like a mini cut or cleanup phase. And we would utilize something like an aggressive deficit for a short and truncated period of time to alleviate a lot of those symptoms to drop off some body fat to increase insulin sensitivity to, you know, regulate your appetite again, so you actually have some hunger. And so it's this push and pull as all systems in life. And even within the concept of energy flux, it's not that you're in a high high flux approach all the time, or that your steps are constantly, you know, if I have a client and you know, during their fat loss phase, they're at 10,000, that doesn't mean during their building phase, it goes to 12,000, their next phase, it goes to 50,000. There's titration in and out of the system. So based on their goal, there's a lot of times for instance, um, you know, one of my clients, he has a very successful podcast himself, Jeremiah, they're called the Living lean podcast. And, you know, recently, I had him at a certain step count during his fat loss phase, I had lowered it during his reverse dieting phase, where his recovery dieting phase, and then we were in a building phase, and I had kept it constant, because we were really seeing a lot of progress. His he was maintaining a great body composition, insulin sensitivity was in a great place. And he was someone that suffered from Dawn phenomenon. So he has elevated fasting butcher in the morning. So I want to keep that in place. However, we've gotten to a stage where he's eating so many calories per day. I mean, his training days is over 4200 calories per day, and we're really pushing things. And he's seeing a stall in body weight. And it was because he ended up, you know, he admitted this later, but he was doing a little bit more steps than I had programmed for him. So yeah, so he was he was essentially expending too much energy. And that's where that's a tool. And we have to realize everything within coaching, whether it's energy flux, nutritional periodization, its macros, anything that we utilize our tools, and we have to utilize the right tool at the right time. And that doesn't mean that's another another misconception. energy flux isn't always about titrating up, or it's not about hitting a specific amount, it's about taking someone where they're at. And especially if their goal is to lose fat, or get lean and stay lean. It's about titrating up from where you are now, and incrementally increasing calories and steps, you know, in a manner that we're seeing positive indices or positive improvements in your biofeedback, your body composition, how you feel, how you look how you perform, however, there's going to be negative drawbacks. So I've had people, you know, contact me that they're like, Hey, man, I'm doing 30,000 steps per day, you know, do you think I should go up? And I'm like, you know, I need some context. First and foremost, however, you know, it seems like you're doing an awful amount of activity. And they're, you know, and they're in a situation where they're not gaining any muscle or they don't know their performances or any see detriments. And that's where I'm like, listen, it's not always yes, I see that the the statement, eat more and do more, however, it's relative. It's relative, where you're at what your goals are, and what your body's responses. And what you have to realize is, there can be such a thing as too much of a good thing. Sure.

Philip Pape 58:26

Awesome, man. Okay, this is great listeners are gonna love this. We talked about a lot. I know you have a hard stop and like three minutes. So the You said you'd be willing to come on again, because I have about a million other questions. And normally, I would ask this question. I don't want your answer today. But the listener is expected and it was what one question Did you wish I had asked, and what is your answer? Well, we're gonna hold that so that the next time you come up, you can be prepared. We'll ask that at the end after we get to the rest of our questions. So where can listeners learn more about your in?

Brandon DaCruz 58:53

Absolutely my man. Well, listen, guys, I am always available. This is something education is a big component of who I am as a person, I really believe in empowering others through education. So first and foremost, you guys can all find me on Instagram at Brandon Tucker's underscore, I've not missed a post since 2017. So that was a vow or a promise I made myself I would get back into the community. So every single day, you're gonna see an educational post. Another thing you guys can all contact me on email, which is betta Chris fitness@gmail.com. And the third thing is I host a podcast. So this is something I actually didn't mention in my intro, unfortunately, but I host a podcast I was on. Phil mentioned, I've been on like 200 podcasts. But finally last year, a close friend of mine convinced me to do a podcast of her own so it's called the chasing clarity, health and fitness podcast. And it's done with a very good friend of mine and fellow gym owner and coach himself Jeff black, and I would love you guys to check it out. I'm sure that we have a very similar, you know, audio your audience or listenership. And so I would love to be able to educate you guys in that capacity as well.

Philip Pape 59:48

No doubt and I'm a listener myself so guys, I'll put the IG and email and chasing clarity podcast and since you are listening to a podcast, very easy to just go find it and follow it right now. Brandon, man, thanks so much. It's been a pleasure. are truly an honor to have you on the show.

Brandon DaCruz 1:00:02

Of course my man looking forward to round two already. Likewise,

Philip Pape 1:00:06

if you've been inspired by today's interview, and are ready to take action and build momentum on your health and fitness journey, just schedule a free 30 minute nutrition momentum call with me using the link in my show notes. I promised not to sell or pitch you on anything, but I will help you gain some perspective and guidance so we can get you on the right track toward looking and feeling your best

Philip Pape 3/31/23 Philip Pape 3/31/23

Ep 57: The Power of the Mind and Love with Terry Tucker

Today's episode features my conversation with author and motivational speaker Terry Tucker. We talk about his life's purpose and his 10-year battle with a rare form of cancer that resulted in the amputation of his foot (2018) and then his leg (2020). We also discuss at length his phenomenal book "Sustainable Excellence." He shares his favorite principles from his book and reveals which one he believes to be the most important among the ten. Overall, it is a must-listen, powerful interview with a leading authority on the subjects of motivation, mindset, and personal growth, and one that you should not miss!

Terry Tucker is a motivational speaker, author, and international podcast guest on the topics of motivation, mindset, and self-development.

He has a business administration degree from The Citadel (where he played NCAA Division I college basketball) and a master’s degree from Boston University. In his professional career, Terry has been a marketing executive, a hospital administrator, a SWAT Team Hostage Negotiator, a high school basketball coach, and a business owner.

Terry is the author of the book, Sustainable Excellence, Ten Principles To Leading Your Uncommon and Extraordinary Life, and the developer of the Sustainable Excellence Membership.

__________
👩‍💻 Schedule your FREE 30-minute Nutrition Momentum Call with Philip here.
__________

Today you’ll learn all about:

[3:03] What Terry learned in his battle with cancer
[6:31] Terry's 4 truths
[9:30] Why you should be careful how you talk to yourself
[11:55] The meaning of the saying "Mental is to physical, as 4 is to 1."
[13:15] What it is like being a SWAT hostage negotiator
[18:06] How to deal with setbacks
[23:00] What Terry's book called 'Sustainable Excellence' is all about
[25:40] Terry's favorite chapter in his book
[27:43] The importance of love in everything we do
[29:46] How everything starts with controlling your mind
[34:30] Going out there to find your reason or purpose in life

Episode resources:

The Motivational Check blog: https://www.motivationalcheck.com/
Grab a copy of Terry's book "Sustainable Excellence, Ten Principles to Leading Your Uncommon and Extraordinary Life" here:
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B08GLGVTVS

👩‍💻 Schedule your FREE 30-minute Nutrition Momentum Call with Philip here.

💪 Need help optimizing your body composition? Check out Wits & Weights individualized, one-on-one nutrition coaching:
https://witsandweights.com/coaching

👉 If you want to learn more about lifting and nutrition, reach out to Philip:

IG: https://www.instagram.com/witsandweights/
Email: philip@witsandweights.com

🥩 Free Ultimate Macros Guide and 50 High-Protein Recipes:
https://witsandweights.com

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Transcript

Terry Tucker 00:00

If there's something in your heart, something in your soul that you believe you're supposed to do, but it scares you, go ahead and do it. Because at the end of your life, the things you're going to regret are not going to be the things you did. They're going to be the things you didn't do. And by then it's going to be too late to go back and duel.

Philip Pape 00:22

Philip Pape 00:48

Welcome to another episode of Wits & Weights. Joining me on the show today is Terry Tucker, a motivational speaker, author and international podcast guest on the topics of motivation, mindset and self development. He has a business administration degree from the Citadel, where he played NCAA division one college basketball, and a master's degree from Boston University. In his professional career, Terry has been a marketing executive, a hospital administrator, a SWAT team hostage negotiator, a high school basketball coach, a business owner, a motivational speaker, and for the past 10 years, a cancer warrior, which resulted in the amputation of his foot in 2018. And his leg in 2020. Terry is the author of the book, sustainable excellence 10 principles to leading your uncommon and extraordinary life and the developer of the Sustainable excellence membership. Terry, I'm very honored to have you on the show.

Terry Tucker 01:42

Well, Phillip, thanks for having me. I'm looking forward to talking with you today.

Philip Pape 01:46

Yeah, likewise, let's just start at the top. I mean, who is Terry Tucker, what is what is your purpose in life?

Terry Tucker 01:52

I think my purpose has really kind of evolved or changed over time. I think when I was when I was younger, I it was basketball. You know, I drank slept basketball. And then after I graduated from college, I felt my purpose it took me a while to get there was to be in law enforcement. And you mentioned I was the SWAT team, hostage negotiator. And now is in all honesty, I'm probably coming towards the end of my life, I think my purpose is to put as much goodness as much positivity, as much motivation, as much love back into the world as I possibly can with whatever time I have left. So my purpose I think has evolved over time. And I think I've been fortunate to recognize that, okay, things are changing now. And I need to change as well.

Philip Pape 02:39

Okay, and you've definitely I imagined change, because of so many of these experiences, we had not only the different phases of your career, but this battle of cancer that you went through, and I was actually going through your website again, just to get familiar with the whole story. And it's quite the story. You know, over 10 years, that rare form of cancer, you have your foot and then leg amputated. I can't even imagine that let alone just the time and all the all the pain you went through. Tell us about that experience and what what you ultimately learned from it.

Terry Tucker 03:07

Yeah, so I mean, when this occurred, it was back in 2012. I was a girls high school basketball coach in Texas and I had a callus break open on the bottom of my foot right below my third toe. And initially I didn't think much of it because as a coach, you're on your feet a lot. But after a few weeks of it nonhealing out I made an appointment and went to see a podiatrist, a foot doctor friend of mine, and he took an x ray. He said, Tara, thank you have a cyst in there and I can cut it out. And he did. And he showed it to me just so gelatin sack with some white fat in it. No dark spots, no blood, nothing that gave either one of us concern. But fortunately or unfortunately, he sent it off to pathology to have it examined. And then two weeks later, I received a call from him. And as I mentioned, he was a friend of mine. And the more difficulty he was having explaining to me what was going on, the more frightened I was becoming and to finally just laid it out for me. So Tara been a doctor for 25 years, I've never seen this form of cancer, you have an incredibly rare form of melanoma. And most of us think of melanoma is too much exposure to the sun and affects the melanin, the pigment in our skin. But this has absolutely nothing to do with that there's a rare form that I have that appears on the bottom of the feet, or the palms of the hands. And as a result he recommended I go to MD Anderson Cancer Center in Houston and be treated. And so I did so I had you know, the tumor excised on the bottom, my foot all the lymph nodes removed, and then my doctor because at the time melanoma was a death sentence. I mean, it was like we don't really have anything to treat it. So she put me on a weekly injection of a drug called interferon to kind of kick the can down the road. The side effects of the interferon were that I had severe flu like symptoms for two to three days every week after each injection, and I took those injections for almost five years.

Terry Tucker 05:00

Just imagine having the flu every week for five years. And I'll tell you, there was a point in time where I was, I was so sick of being sick, that I literally prayed to die, I have a very strong faith. And so it was like, Look, God, this is, I think there's a difference between living and not dying. And I was kind of in that not dying mode. It's like, I'm not really living, I'm just trying to make it to the next day to survive. And so I, I just prayed to die. But obviously, I didn't die. But I think God gave me the strength to get through those five years. And as you already said, you know, that got me to having my leg amputated, having my foot amputated and things like that. And I'll tell you how to nurse recently asked me, you know, what was it like to lose your leg and 18 and or your foot and 18, and then your leg again in 2020. And I told her, I said, it certainly has not been easy. I'm still learning how to walk again with a prosthetic. But what I told her was is that cancer can take all my physical faculties, but cancer can't touch my mind. It can't touch my heart, and it can't touch my soul. And that's who I am. That's your Philip. That's where everybody who's listening to us is. So you know, we spend a lot of time working on our bodies, you know, I was an athlete my whole life going to the gym, you'll get better get stronger. But do we spend as much time working on who we really are not our heart, our mind and our soul? Maybe there needs to be a better balance, I think, between those things in our lives. And would you say that that that moment was the crucible moment, because it sounds like you've had so many, so many experiences that could have been the catalyst for eventually writing your book and trying to make this impact and put out goodness in the world. So, you know, somebody's listening, and they want to find their, what you call uncommon and extraordinary purpose. You know, of course, not everybody wants to have to go through an experience like that to get there. So, you know, just tell me a little bit more about that. Yeah, I learned a lot of things through the through this episode, I've learned that you know, I don't really think you know, yourself until you've been tested by some form of adversity in life. I think cancer has made me a better human being in a lot of ways. It's gotten me to a point where I've learned what I call my four truths. And I call them my truths, but they're not mine. I don't own them. I don't I don't think you can own a truth. And I'll and I'll give them to you, because I call them sort of the bedrock of my soul, they're just a good place, I think to build a quality life off of. And before I guess I give you the truth, let me say this, I mean, you're looking at me right now there's no s on my chest, I don't have a cake and fly around with magical powers I, I have tough days I have that I'm still being treated for the tumors in my lungs. So there are days that get down, there are days I get depressed. So I don't purport to have all the answers. Like if you do this, you know, this is going to be your outcome. But what I do offer is, this is my story. And this is what I've learned. And if these things work for you, then by all means, take them and incorporate them in your life, maybe one or two of them works for you. Take those and incorporate those in your life and develop your own truths around those. So first truth, control your mind or your mind is going to control you. The second truth, embrace the pain and the difficulty that we all experience in life. And it doesn't have to be cancer, or even any kind of an illness, and use that pain and difficulty to make you a stronger and more resilient individual. The third one, I look at more as a legacy type of truth. And it's this, what you leave behind is what you weave in the hearts of other people. And then the fourth one, I think is pretty self explanatory. As long as you don't quit, you can never be defeated. So I like I said, I use those truths as kind of a bedrock of my soul. And they're just a good place that, you know, do I want to take chemotherapy? Do I want to do this drug? Do I want to get involved in this project? Do these truths along with my faith? This helped me to decide whether there's something I want to do.

Philip Pape 09:10

I love that, Terry, so that the second truth stuck out of me, repeated again has to do with a strong mind, right?

Terry Tucker 09:17

Yeah. Embrace the pain and the difficulty that we all experienced in life and use that pain and difficulty to make you a stronger and more resilient individual.

Philip Pape 09:28

Right. Just listening to another podcast this morning. It was just about strength training and very casual podcast and he said, you know, a strong body is a strong mind, which gives you strong thoughts. And it always reminds me you know, these things that are difficult in the short term, but you embrace them and they end up making you a better person. Right. And that's how we change. Yeah,

Terry Tucker 09:49

it is and I think you know, I go back to the control your mind part and I, I always tell people, be very, very careful how you talk Talk To Yourself, we all have self talk, you know, we all, we all talk to ourselves whether we want want to admit it or not, we just start answering yourself that you kind of have problems. But you know, we all have this this self talk. And, you know, I'll just give you an example from my basketball days, the same part of your brain lights up, when you're practicing free throws, actually taking a ball and shooting free throws, the same part of your brain lights up when you think about shooting free throws. So whether you're physically doing it, or whether you're thinking about doing it, you're making those connections, you're making those synapses connect in your brain. And so you know, if you sit there and tell yourself, you know, I'm a lousy free throw shooter, or you know, I'm terrible at algebra, or I'm never going to start my business, if you keep saying that to yourself, eventually, you're going to get to the point where, yeah, you're not going to be good at shooting free throws, or you're not going to be good at algebra, and you're not going to be able to start your business, because you've hardwired your brain to believe that. So be very careful, be very, I don't know, gentle, tender, whatever you want to call it with yourself. I mean, you're gonna be tough with yourself, but at the same time, make sure the things you're saying are positive things to yourself. Or if there is negative stuff coming in, that you're the kind of person that can use negativity, you know, there are certain people out there, I'm not one of them. You know, Philip, you're terrible at weightlifting, and you're never going to be any good. And some people can take that and internalize it and use it as motivation or fuel or something to. Like I said, I'm not one of those people. But there are those people out there. So you know, be very careful how you talk to yourself, because it all starts with your mind. We all become what we think. And when I was growing up, you know, in Chicago playing basketball, Bobby Knight was the basketball coach at Indiana

Philip Pape 11:49

University and chairs around Yeah,

Terry Tucker 11:53

exactly the same guy. Well, there was a guy I played basketball with in high school that played for a night, Isaiah Thomas, who won a national championship with him, and then went on to play for the Detroit Pistons and won a couple NBA championships. And so Isaiah and I would see each other in the summer, when we would come back to Chicago, you know, I'd be like, you know, what's night like and stuff like that. He said, he's a great guy loves his players. But he has to say that it's very simple saying you said mental is to physical as for is to one. So here's this great coach, teaching elite athletes to use their bodies to be great on the basketball court. But what it was really saying what that quote is that your mind, or your mind set is four times more important than anything your physical body's going to do.

Philip Pape 12:38

Yeah, that's a great message. And a lot of folks listening to this podcast, they're interested in health and nutrition. And a lot of this comes down to consistency, and accountability. And we'll talk about for example, going in and doing your squats, right. And the idea that you may have had a terrible day, the night before, you may have not had too much sleep, you go to the gym and you don't feel well, your warmup doesn't feel good, you get to that first set. And it's like, you can either you can either give up or you can say, well, I don't feel good, but I'm gonna do it. And inevitably you do. And there's there's that mindset thing where it's like 6070 80% of it is all in your mind. So I really love that. You know, I have to ask, you mentioned so you mentioned basketball, but you also in your past, were a SWAT team hostage negotiator. Now we're recording this around the holidays. So the movie diehard melee comes to mind. It's not going to come out to a little bit later than that. But I want to I want to understand what that experience is like, I'm sure you get this question all the time. And how that but also what it taught you about the human mind. And I realize there's a manipulative aspect to it, I guess is one way to put it. But there's both sides of the equation that I imagined teaches you about the human psyche.

Terry Tucker 13:45

Yeah, there is I heard Bruce Willis say one time yet Die Hard is not a Christmas movie. You know what he was very. But But you're right. I mean, it kind of is we're always watching to Christmas and things like that. Yeah, being a hostage negotiator. For those who don't understand Swat. SWAT is usually divided up into two groups one or the, or the tactical officers. Those are the ones with all the toys in the guns in the you know, battering rams, and all that kind of stuff. And then there's the negotiators, and if the negotiators do their job, then the tactical guys don't get to use all their toys. So sometimes they're not happy with this. But it's it was it was absolutely a big learning curve for me. Because if you think of what a police officer does, 99.9% of what we did was usually face to face with another human being whether we're stopping you to give you a ticket because you ran a red light or we're answering a radio run for a fight. It's face to face and you can take those visual clues. So you know if I'm talking to you and you're like, you know, kind of looking around, maybe you're getting ready to run or you know, if you're standing there and you're balling up your fist, maybe you want to fight me so I can See that and I can do what's appropriate, I can handcuff you, I can sit you down and put you in my car, whatever is appropriate for why I'm there. But as negotiators, we were not with the person we were negotiating with, this wasn't a face to face kind of thing. This was many times, we're blocks away talking on a phone, or we're behind, you know, a locked door, they barricaded themselves. And so we have to figure things out based on what people are saying what they're not saying, and how they're saying it. And the overarching part of negotiation is trust. We're trying to build a relationship just like a parent, or a child, or a husband and wife, or a Boston subordinate. You're trying to build to build trust. And sometimes that takes hours. And there were many times where I'm negotiating with somebody where we're over here talking about something when the real issue is over here, but they don't trust me enough yet to want to talk about why we're actually there at four o'clock in the morning to deal with this situation. So trust was a big thing. Listening was a big thing. And people are well, of course, we listen all the time. It's like, No, we're not talking about listening to respond. We're talking about listening to understand. And I even put a chapter in my book about the importance of listening and listening to understand, you know, maybe one of these things where, you know, Phillip say what you're gonna say, because I want to get my two cents in, that's listening to respond versus Okay, Philip, I understand are I hear what you're saying? I may agree with it may not agree with it. But help me understand where you're coming from. And the other thing you mentioned the word manipulative, we didn't really like to say that. But you're absolutely right. We would ask people, How and what questions. And what that did was, engage them to develop or help us to develop solutions to get them out. We tried to stay away from why questions because why sounds kind of accusatory, but why did you do that? Or why are we here? Wait a minute, maybe he's kind of getting in my grill, so to speak. So we would ask how and what, how do you see this getting resolved. Now all of a sudden, now they're engaged with us to try to get them out safely. And I'll end with this, about 80% of the time, maybe even 90%, we were pretty good. In Cincinnati, where I was a negotiator, we would get the personnel safely, whether it was a barricaded person, or whether there was a hostage, but about 10% of the time that the person who was barricaded, decided that you know what, no, because I know when I come out, I'm going back to prison, and I'm not going back to prison, or, you know, I know, I'm gonna get tried and get convicted of that homicide. So I'm not going to I don't want to go to prison. And they would choose to end their life. And again, and I don't mean to sound callous about this. But I never lost any sleep over that for a couple reasons. One, I had great training, I worked with great people. And I worked very hard to try to get that person out safely. But the bottom line is, at the end of the day, if you're barricaded with a gun, it's going to be your decision on how this situation ends.

Philip Pape 18:04

I hear you're saying, Terry, this is this is serious stuff. Okay. Yeah, I was just curious about about that. And the listening actually, that really speaks to me, because that is something I've had to work on for years. And I think doing things like podcasts forces me to try to develop that skill here and hear what you're saying. Maybe to get back to a slightly lighter topic. Sure. Yeah, I opened up the door because I couldn't help it. I had a curiosity. And it is my shows I get to do that. But so how do we how do we deal with setbacks? I guess? Well, you know, going back to the things that cause us to struggle and have adversity that then causes us to change, especially when the setbacks are out of our control, which many are right. Is this a matter of perspective of personal responsibility and not making the excuses despite the fact that wasn't in our control? What's your take on that?

Terry Tucker 19:00

Yeah, I mean, you know, I've got this blog called motivational check. And so you know, everybody thinks it's about motivation. And I think motivation is, is part of it. Motivation, to me is kind of like lighting the fuse, you know, somebody lit the fuse. But if you don't have discipline, and you don't have good habits, you can have all the motivation in the world, you're never going to get ahead. And just like, I kind of look at it as like a three legged stool, if any one of those things you don't have, you have motivation, you have great habits, but you have no discipline to implement those habits. Or you have motivation, you know, you have discipline, but your habits are terrible. And if you don't have all three of those ingredients, there's actually no way you're going to get to be successful unless you just happen to lock into something that that happens to you. So it's more than just you know, rah, rah, you know, I want to get to the gym today and I want to do that. You have to have the motivation. You have to have the discipline, and then you have to have those good habits. And if you had those, absolutely, you're going to have setbacks in your life. I mean, we're human beings, we're going to have bad days, we're going to have, as you described earlier, you know, we get up and I really don't want to go to the gym today. And it's not something like that, I think back to I have a friend of mine who's who's a navy former Navy SEAL. And during my off weeks of treatment, he calls me in and he just checks up on me. And one of the things we talked about from time to time, is what the seals call their 40% rule, which basically says that if, if you're done, if you're at the end of your rope, if you can't go on, according to the seals, you're only at 40% of your maximum. And you still have, you know, another 60%, left in reserve to give to yourself, and I've always believed, not always, certainly within the last 10 years, I've come to believe that, yes, we all have a breaking point. But that breaking point is so much further down the road than we ever give ourselves credit for. I know, I found that with my cancer journey where it's like, I just don't think I can keep going. I just don't think I can go on. But somehow I found a way to do that. And I think the same thing can be applied. You know, when you're having those bad days, when you're having those setbacks. Just keep trying to put one foot in front of the other. And eventually you'll you'll get out of that ugliness and start moving forward.

Philip Pape 21:21

Yeah, that's I've heard, I've heard that to the 40%. I've even heard it more extreme by it was, again, a Navy SEAL something like the 9010 rule that most I think what it was, is that most average people put in 10% of what they are capable of. And what you're saying is a Navy Seal is gonna go push all the way and he's still only 40%. So that's just, that's how much capacity we have.

Terry Tucker 21:45

Yeah, we all think, oh, it's Navy SEALs, I could never do that. Well. Trust me. I'm the biggest wimp in the world if I can figure out a way to kind of push through that. I think we all have that in us. And like I said, you know, yeah, I think there's a breaking point. But that breaking point is so much further down the road than you ever give yourself credit for.

Philip Pape 22:03

Yeah. And it's all relative to our to our own capabilities. There's something else about the Navy SEALs just comes to mind. Have you heard about the how they how they perceive stress. So most of us when we when we see stress, it's a negative. And, and for them when they perceive stress, it's a motivating factor. And they actually did a study that showed they think completely different from almost every other person in that regard. Just Just throwing that out there in case you hadn't heard of that. No,

Terry Tucker 22:28

I hadn't heard that. So I got a phone call with my friend next week. So that's yes.

Philip Pape 22:34

I think they I think it was on freakanomics, or planet money or one of those other podcasts recently. Hey, this is Philip. And I hope you're enjoying this episode of Wits & Weights. If you're finding value in the content and want to stay up to date with all our latest episodes, be sure to hit the Follow button on your favorite podcast platform. By following you'll get notified whenever a new episode comes out. And you won't miss out on knowledge and strategies to level up your health and fitness. All right, let's get back to the episode. So I want listeners to know about your book, which is titled sustainable excellence. And according to this description, it answers the three basic questions that will lead you to your best life. What is excellence? How do you achieve it? And how do you sustain it? Do you mind if I read a short excerpt from the introduction go right ahead. Because Because this stuck out to me is just one tiny slice, actually Oh my God, here we goes the 40% rule. Now this is serendipity. If I so I put these questions together maybe two months ago. And I'll just get back to it. Now this is this is okay. You can't write it any better. Here we go. I remember reading an article about the owner professional sports who paid a Navy SEAL to come and live with his family for a month and teach them to use their minds to do more than their bodies ever thought they could. Part of their training was the 40% rule. You know, I'm just gonna leave it right there. Because you just said it. In your own words. I got the guy who wrote the book who just said it. Let's just get to the question. Tell us about the book and why somebody would want to pick this up. Yes, yeah. So

Terry Tucker 23:59

sustainable excellence was really a book that was born out of two conversations that I had. One was with a former player that I coached in high school, who had moved to the area in Colorado where my wife and I live with her fiance. And the four of us had had dinner one night, I remember saying to her after dinner, you know, I'm really excited that you're living close, and I can watch you find and live your purpose. She got real quiet for a while. And then she looked at me and she said, Well, Coach, what do you think my purpose is? I said, I have absolutely no idea what your purpose is. But that's what your life should be about finding the reason you were put on the face of this earth, using your unique gifts and talents and living that reason. So that was one conversation. And then a young man in college reached out to me on social media and he said, you know, what do you think are the most important things I need to learn to not just be successful in my job or in business, but to be successful in life? And I didn't want to give them the you know, get up early, work hard, help others. Not that those aren't important. Those are incredibly important. But I wanted to see if I could go deeper with him. And so I sort of stepped back took some time was writing some notes eventually had these, you know, sort of 10 thoughts, these 10 ideas, these 10 principles. And so I sent them to him. And then I kind of stepped back and I was like, Well, I've got a life story that fits underneath that principle, or I know somebody whose life emulates this principle. So literally, during the three or four month period where I was healing after I had my leg amputated, I sat down at the computer every day, and I built stories, and they're real stories about real people underneath each of the principles. And that's how sustainable excellence came to be.

Philip Pape 25:39

Yeah, storytelling is a great way to learn. what's your what's your favorite principle? And I'm not going to let you choose number nine, because that one is listen more than you talk, which we already covered in the Swat. Story, yeah,

Terry Tucker 25:55

the one that resonates with me, and it's always fun for me as as the author because the each principle is a chapter. And when somebody reaches out to me, there's always one chapter that resonates specifically with them. And this is the one I can't remember if it's two or three in the book, but the chapter is entitled this, most people think with their fears and their insecurities instead of using their minds. And I know I've done that probably many times in my life where, you know, I want to do this, oh, wait a minute, you know, maybe I'm not smart enough. Maybe I don't have enough information or knowledge. What do people think about me if I fail, that's thinking with our fears, and our insecurities, that's not thinking with our minds. And I always tell especially when I speak to young people in groups, I always tell them, if there's something in your heart, something in your soul that you believe you're supposed to do, but it scares you. Go ahead and do it. Because at the end of your life, the things you're going to regret are not going to be the things you did, they're going to be the things you didn't do. And by then it's going to be too late to go back and duel.

Philip Pape 27:00

Do the thing you're most scared to do. That is great advice. I mean, you can you can take that to the microcosm. Also, it doesn't have to be some massive, passionate undertaking in your career could be, you know, you're afraid to go give that presentation or do this podcast or try this new program or talk to this person and so many things, I could see that applying the thing you're most afraid of is the thing you should be doing. Right? Embrace lack of uncomfortability. Yeah. Cool. And you said two and three, are they? Did you want to cover the other one, you said to chapter two was

Terry Tucker 27:37

two or three. I mean, that's, that's definitely, you know, the one that resonates with me. And you know, I say they're not in any particular order. And they're not more important than the other. But I think in all honesty, probably the last one is the most important I was when I was growing up. John Wooden was the basketball coach at UCLA. And I was a huge wooden fan. And I remember one day he was being interviewed by a reporter. And I was sitting there literally, you know, I'm probably 1213 years old, with a pad of paper and a pencil and I'm looking for some good X's and O's to be a better basketball player. And the reporter asked him, what do you what do you want your players to learn most? As you coach them in this game? It like I said, I'm ready for some, you know, I'm ready to write stuff down. And he said, The most important thing to me is the word love. And as a kid, I'm like, no, no, no, no, I want some good X's and O's don't give me what love. Are you kidding me? He said, No, I want people I want my players to understand the importance of loving what they do, loving themselves, loving their teammates, loving their Creator. He said, everything we do in life comes down to love to love what we do. And I didn't get that as a kid. You know, it didn't resonate with me. But today it does, you know, how we treat people, how we treat ourselves, you know, the important things, our values in our life having a value driven belief system. The bottom line is for all of us, I think, you know, if you love being a great podcast host if I love being a great podcast, yes, it still comes down to love. And I really do think that's probably the most important trait or principle that I put in the book.

Philip Pape 29:21

Love is all you need. That song is going through my head right? Now, yeah, that's so true. Because it's, you know, we talk about maybe the opposite of that of eliminating things that don't, that aren't part of love or that don't serve you or that are toxic or that try to tear you down and embracing these things and the abundance mentality so absolutely love that. Speaking of love, I use the word love a lot. So there we go. So if you had to pick one thing that you would just universally write universally right now on the spot, recommend to someone that they need to start doing right now today, you know, don't let life pass on by what would it be?

Terry Tucker 29:59

I I think it would go back to the first of the four truths, control your mind, everything starts with that, if you can't control your mind, you know, you're going to become what you think. And if you're thinking a bunch of negative things, you know, think about things you can't do, then you're going to become that negative type of person are not able to do that things. So I would say, you've got to start with being able to control your mind, if you can do that everything from their outcome is like the ripple effect effect of throwing a stone into a pond. If you can control your mind, you can absolutely do whatever you you want to do in life.

Philip Pape 30:35

Now, because that's one thing you absolutely have control over, right? It's only more even more than your actions in body if, if you were completely imprisoned and trapped physically, you still have control over your mind.

Terry Tucker 30:46

Well, there's there's an interesting, there's a great book, and I'd recommend it. It's it's called do hard things by Steve Magnus. And Steve Magnus was a former track and field coach at the University of Minnesota, he was also a very elite runner early in his life. And he cites a study in that where this person put people into a room and the only thing in the room was a table and a chair, they were not allowed to have their devices, there were no windows, there were no anything and he wanted people to stay in there for 15 minutes. The only other thing in the room was a buzzer on the table. And if you press the buzzer, you got an electric shock. So you had a chance to just stay there be alone with yourself for 15 minutes, or to press the buzzer. 67% of the men press the buzzer, including one man who pressed the buzzer every five seconds and 25% of the women press the buzzer as well. Was it difficult to standardize, you've got to be comfortable with you. You've got to be comfortable being alone with who you are and your thoughts and things like that. And you may need to change your goals, you know, 75% of the people who die trying to scale Mount Everest die on the way down, not on the way up. So you know, their goal is so consuming that I've got to do this. But the understanding is my body can't handle if I do this, why don't I you know, is it really going to matter whether I climb that mountain or not? If the end result is I'm going to die? Let me think about that 75% of people die on the way down after reaching their goal. Right. You know, it's something to think about in terms of controlling your mind.

Philip Pape 32:24

Yeah, in terms of perspective, that's great. All right, Terry. So I do like to ask this of all guests, and that is what one question Did you wish I had asked, and what is your answer?

Terry Tucker 32:37

Boy, I guess you know, people always ask me, Do you have one piece of advice? And I if I could, I know I've kind of shot my mouth off a lot with you. Let me end this with a story. If I may always been a big fan of Westerns growing up. You know, when I was young, my mom and dad used to let me stay up and watch Gunsmoke and Bonanza My favorite was always Wild Wild West 1993 The movie Tombstone came out you've probably seen it huge blockbuster started Val Kilmer as a man by the name of John Doc Holliday and Kurt Russell's a man by the name of Wyatt Earp. Now Doc Holliday and Wyatt Earp are two living breathing human beings who walked on the face of the earth are not just made up characters for the movie, and Doc was called doc because he was a dentist by trade. But pretty much Doc Holliday was a gunslinger and a card shark and why on earth had been some form of a law man his entire adult life. And somehow these two men from entirely opposite backgrounds come together and form this very close friendship. And at the end of the movie, Doc Holliday is dying of tuberculosis at a sanitarium in Glenwood Springs, Colorado, which is about three hours from where I live. The real Doc Holliday died at that sanitarium, and he's buried in the Glenwood Springs cemetery. And why it at this point in his life is destitute is no money is no job is no prospects for a job. So every day comes to play cards with Doc and the two men pass the time that way. And in this almost last scene in the movie, they're talking about what they want out of life. And Doc says, you know, when I was younger, I was in love with my cousin, but she joined a convent over the affair, which is all that I ever wanted. And then he looks at why this is what about you why What do you want? And why kind of nonchalantly says I just want to lead a normal life. And Doc looks at him and says there's no normal, there's just life and get on with living years. Philip, you and I probably know people, there's probably people out there listening to us. They're like, sitting back well, when this happens, I'll have a normal life. Or when this occurs, I have a successful life. Or when this arises, I'll have a significant life. What I'd really like to leave your listeners with is this Don't wait. Don't wait for life to come to you. Get out there find the reason you were put on the face of this earth. Use your unique gifts and talents and live that reason. Because if you do at the end your life I'm going to promise you two things. Number one, you're going to be A whole lot happier. And number two, you're gonna have a whole lot more peace in your heart.

Philip Pape 35:06

Get out there and live your life. There's a reason you're a motivational speaker, you gotta you gotta be ready to go. Ready to go. So I hope everybody listening is as well and they're psyched up. Where can everybody learn about you?

Terry Tucker 35:17

So I have a blog called motivational check every day I put up a thought for the day and with that thought, usually comes a question about how maybe you could apply that into your life. On Mondays I put up the Monday morning motivational message of recommendations for books to read videos to watch and things like that. So you can you can also leave me a message leave me a note at motivational check.com

Philip Pape 35:39

Perfect. I will put that in the show notes, motivational check.com can check it out myself. And Terry, I really appreciate it. This is insightful, interesting conversation, your background is fascinating. And all the things you share today I think are gonna really help the listener. So thank you for taking the time to come on the show.

Terry Tucker 35:54

Well, thanks for having me, Philip. I really appreciate it.

Philip Pape 35:58

Philip Pape 3/28/23 Philip Pape 3/28/23

Ep 56: Getting Stronger, Training with Skill, and Debunking Fitness BS with Katie Kollath & Heather Hamilton of Barpath Fitness

In this episode, Katie Kollath and Heather Hamilton of Barpath Fitness reveal the importance of performing lifts in full range-of-motion, the impact of strength training on productivity and confidence, and their coaching experience. They cut through toxic misinformation in the fitness industry, discuss their overall philosophy on nutrition coaching, and explain how the Stronger Than Your Boyfriend podcast has made Katie and Heather better coaches.

Barpath Fitness is an LGBTQ+ and Women Owned online remote coaching business where Katie and Heather help people get stronger, reduce pain, and look and feel better without shortcuts, gimmicks, or quick fixes. They have been trainers for over 15 years and offer personalized remote fitness and nutrition coaching.

They also host the Stronger Than Your Boyfriend podcast, where they dive into important and often controversial topics in their trademark style to help you sift through toxic misinformation in the fitness industry.

Katie and Heather specialize in helping people get out of a restrictive mindset so they can build muscle, move better, and feel more confident. They don’t advocate for endless cardio or restrictive diets, but instead, quality movement, efficient training methods, and slow habit changes over time to improve quality of life.

You’ll learn all about:

Katie and Heather’s fitness journeys and building a remote coaching business
Origins of Barpath Fitness and its unique brand
Heather’s powerlifting experiences and its influence on the brand
Identifying target clients and refining the coaching approach
The relationship between mobility and performance
Importance of performing lifts in full range-of-motion
Skill-based training and resistance training as a skill
The impact of strength training on productivity and confidence
The coaching experience and client journey with Barpath Fitness
Debunking fitness industry BS and toxic misinformation
The Stronger Than Your Boyfriend podcast’s impact on coaching
Nutrition philosophy

Episode resources:

Download the Stronger Than Your Boyfriend podcast
Personalize remote fitness & nutrition coaching - barpathfitness.com
Stronger Than Your Boyfriend FB group
Watch the video here

👉 If you want to learn more about lifting and nutrition, reach out to Philip:

IG: https://www.instagram.com/witsandweights/
Email: philip@witsandweights.com

💪 Need help optimizing your body composition? Check out Wits & Weights individualized, one-on-one nutrition coaching:
https://witsandweights.com/coaching

👩‍💻 Free 30-minute call with Philip:
http://bit.ly/3JAFKSz

🥩 Free Ultimate Macros Guide and 50 High-Protein Recipes:
https://witsandweights.com

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Transcript

Philip Pape 00:08

Philip Pape 00:31

Welcome to another episode of Wits & Weights. I think this is going to be an epic conversation. I can tell you that already. Just from listening to my guests. On their podcast, they throw down the gauntlet, they help us all see the light. When it comes to the fitness industry. They tell it like it is they dish out a ton of extremely valuable information just to help you get better results in the gym and in life. My guest today are Katie Colette and Heather Hamilton of bar path fitness and the Stronger Than Your Boyfriend podcast. Make sure to subscribe everyone please. Bar path fitness is an LGBTQ plus and women own online remote coaching business where Katie and Heather help people get stronger, reduce pain and look and feel better without shortcuts, gimmicks or quick fixes. They've been trainers for over 15 years and offer personalized remote fitness and nutrition coaching. They also host the Stronger Than Your Boyfriend podcast, where they dive into important and often controversial topics in their trademark style that combines science and spunk. Those are my words, not theirs. To help you sift through toxic misinformation in the fitness industry. I love that we should use that

Philip Pape 01:37

alliteration. Thank you got it, though you got it. So Katie and Heather specialize in helping people get out of a restrictive mindset so they can build muscle move better and feel more confident. They don't advocate for endless cardio or restrictive diets. But instead quality movement, efficient training methods and slow habit changes over time to improve quality of life. Katie and Heather after that long but deserved intro. I'm looking forward to this. And I'm super excited to have you on the show.

Katie Kollath 02:03

Yeah, thank you. Well, we're really excited to be here. And now I feel really good. But that super long intro. Yes. Thank you. Competence. So

Philip Pape 02:10

awesome. No good. And I'm going to try to match your energy to I love it. So yeah, yeah, let's get started the top of your story. You've been trainers for over 15 years, not to mention powerlifting Olympic lifting fitness educators. And you've built what looks to be a high impact remote coaching business. So just tell us how you got into fitness and turn that into careers?

Katie Kollath 02:31

Yeah, well, I guess I'll start I think I started as a personal trainer in college. And it wasn't even the route that I was wanting to go. I just kind of fell in love with it. And then I went on to get my master's degree in physiology. And I realized that I didn't really want to work in like the lab setting I was more into the the one on one personal time with people. So once I moved back to Chicago from grad school, I pretty much dove in, you know, head on with in person personal training. And that's how I built my experience as a trainer. And you know, just kind of went from there. And I know how there will we'll probably talk a little bit about, you know, how we got into like building this this business but together, but that's kind of my trajectory. It wasn't like, yeah, I love fitness. And I've always wanted to do this. It was like kind of a quick pivot once I was in college, but yeah, kind of just fell in love with it from college on so yeah, yeah.

Heather Hamilton 03:28

Yeah, my story is, I guess it starts in kind of in high school, I never played sports. I was not a great athlete, as a kid. And I told this whole story on our podcast, I think in the beginning and one of our like, beginning episodes, so I'll keep it short. But basically, I had dropped out of high school when I was about 16. Just got in with the wrong crowd wasn't really doing too well. And then started doing a choir show choir actually, which is like Broadway kind of, and it knows anything about that there's singing and dancing, there's a lot of diaphragmatic breathing, there's movement, there's a lot of things that you have to be like somewhat fit for. So I decided to kind of really lean into that. And that's when I started working out and I ended up going back to school or both getting my GED. Going back to school, getting my bachelor's and my master's in Applied Health Science. From there, I started working at universities. So I was the director of fitness will started as a coordinator worked my way up to Director at five different universities throughout the United States. One of them is where I met Katie Yeah, I was her boss for a very short amount of time. We were not

Katie Kollath 04:31

we were not dating,

Heather Hamilton 04:33

dating. That's how we met. And yeah, after that, I just kind of we we started our brand back in and what was it? 2016 teen? Yeah. And we've also we've always kind of worked together. So we are married now. But we have worked from a university to a gym we work together to starting this business. So yeah,

Katie Kollath 04:52

it's kind of just worked out that way. I wouldn't always recommend working with our spouse or partner or coaching them right. Well as far as like ours strengths and weaknesses and in business. So

Philip Pape 05:03

yeah, you guys definitely seem to click and I can hear that. So it's really cool to hear that story. I mean, you both came from completely different paths, but then you kept going. Yeah, I did want to ask about the brand itself that why did you start bar path fitness specifically, you know, the thing that sparked your desire to make that impact with remote coaching, especially because I know you have all these different backgrounds, and you could have gone different directions. I think you've really impressively fused your personality and your brand as well.

Katie Kollath 05:29

Yeah, well, thank you for that. We. So in 2016, back, when we started it, we initially just started it as a blog, because we were we just wanted to start putting information out there. Because I remember before we were, you know, when we were just friends, we had talked about potentially opening a gym one day, so we kind of always had this idea of going into business together. And we realized, okay, it's a, you know, shit ton of money to start a gym. And there's a lot of startup costs that come come with that. So we were like, Okay, well, what if we just start with with a blog and like, see what goes from there, because we were both working at a big box gym in Chicago at the time. So there was kind of a, you know, a little clause there, you couldn't really go out on your own yet. So we just really started diving into the research research, we wrote blogs on it, and mostly because from what I was seeing, and I was still kind of a green trainer, but I realized some basic principles that help people and what I was seeing from other trainers and clients that I, you know, I was getting in the gym, and what they thought about fitness, it was just so wrong, and so often not what they needed. And I was like, why is this just so prevalent in the fitness industry? Why are they having them do these crazy workouts that aren't getting the results. So we wanted to just we wanted to start somewhere. And we started writing, and it's somewhat of our both of our strong suits. I mean, I started chi edits, and you know, we finish it, but we also wanted to apply like some research to and, you know, we tried to get a little mesh of both, like, you know, applying it to the average person and while incorporating the research. So we started there. So

Heather Hamilton 07:04

I think that's a good point to bring up, too. I think one of the things we noticed when we first built this brand is that there weren't a lot of women in the space, there weren't a lot of LGBTQ plus women in this space. And the women that are in this space, typically, it's almost like they need to be, you know, top of the line, like you've got to either have all of these crazy records or to have your PhD, you have to have apps or apps. Absolutely, yeah, we wanted to show that, you know, you can there's a mixture of, you know, evidence based, you know, training, and then there's, there's experience, and when you combine those two things like, Wow, you really get something great. And we want it to be a couple of women, specifically LGBTQ plus women in the space.

Katie Kollath 07:45

Yeah, yeah, it was, um, it definitely was one of our missions. Because that I mean, that obviously was a big part of it, like I would, I think I was the only female trainer at one point at this big box gym. Yeah. And it was very, it was a rough environment to get started in. Like, I don't think a lot of clients even wanted to train with me at first until I convinced them to in my own way, right, like, you know, producing some results, but not saying I was the best trainer when I started, but it was like I was doing, I don't know, some different, a different style of training, and most of the trainers in there, like I wasn't just doing, you know, box jumps to burpees. And all this bullshit that people do just to make their clients sweat, it was like, I'm gonna coach you through the process, I'm gonna actually teach you why I'm doing what I'm doing. Like, you're gonna ask questions, and I'm gonna have answers. And if I don't, I'm gonna refer you to someone who does. So yeah,

Philip Pape 08:34

I love all of that. There's, there's a lot to unpack. But I want to cover a few things. I mean, you know, you hear a lot of personal trainers that come through as personal trainers, and they kind of build from there and you you took the route of with the blog, you know, the long form content, which you still do today with your podcast, kind of allowed you to dig in and almost sounds like you then also learn a lot in the process of doing the research and finding the evidence that then combined with what you were doing, combined with your niche or your your audience that wasn't served, you know, women, LGBTQ women, et cetera. You mentioned I think, Heather, you mentioned the evidence based training plus experience. And I think a lot of times people don't give enough credit to the anecdotes from years and years of experience you have working with clients. Right. And that is evidence to write evidence. So yeah, yeah.

Katie Kollath 09:21

Yeah, it's, it's, well, it's, it's what we preach a lot, because there is the yeah, there's research studies, but you I mean, we've all read research studies before, right? Like, you can pretty much find any to support your point of view, if you really, really wanted to, but there's also like, the 10 years that I've been training now, every individual person is different and it's like, Okay, this one thing might not apply to this this person. So it's like you have to be able to adapt and experience is what makes the trainer in. Everyone needs to start somewhere. That's why I was saying like, I wasn't the best trainer when I started, but I had some solid foundations, but I obviously I've learned a ton and it's like the more

Katie Kollath 10:00

Are you go in this industry, the more you realize you don't know. And that's the most exciting part. Because you just have this so much capacity to learn as you're coaching clients to like you might believe one thing and this one thing might have worked for so many clients over the years, then you get this one client who doesn't work for it. And you're you're for and your your paradigm is just kind of shattered. And you're like, alright, well, back to the drawing board. Like, let's figure it out. So yeah, well, that sounds like what a good coach does is make it individualized like that. And you have 99 people that fit the normal curve. And then the other one comes along, like strange outlier, and that's gonna teach you.

Philip Pape 10:34

Cool. So yeah. Now, whether you're an elite level power lifter, right, USPA I know, I saw a new website. So I'm gonna pull stuff from there. Oh, by the way, what other common was for people listening? The website says, like, don't continue if you want fast six pack abs. You had mentioned? Right? Because it's a process. But yeah, totally. So compete. powerlifting. Right. So actually, my very first coaching client as a nutrition coach was also a power lifter with the kinetic USPA. So it's kind of cool. And how was competing helped influence your brand, your mission, your coaching style?

Heather Hamilton 11:08

Yeah. So I think like when we first met, I know Katie was really into like, bodybuilding back then. And I must have just been getting into powerlifting. At that time. Yeah, we ended up doing our first meet together, actually, which was really cool. And we did a bunch of meats after that together. And then I went on and continue to compete in powerlifting, for years. And, yeah, I think that the biggest thing for us was, I suppose the empowerment that you feel when doing these, like full range of motion, heavy compound lifts, right? So it's not necessarily about the sport itself, as much as it is that you those, you know, the squat bench and the deadlift, while those aren't the, you know, the only three moves there three very good compound lifts. And when you can, you know, deadlift, two, three times your body weight, it's even one times your body weight sometimes, you know, it's just it's so empowering, especially for women, especially for women. Yeah. And so that was, I think, something that really just kind of stuck with us and has stuck with us throughout the brand. And it's kind of where we came up with the name at first, we were very barbell focused. So that's kind of our path, a portion of it. And that continued when Katie got more into Olympic lifting, and we both became Olympic lifting coaches. And yeah, but I think I think that whole concept just kind of stuck with our brand.

Katie Kollath 12:24

Yeah, it definitely it set the foundation for bar path just because that that is the reason why I had some solid foundations going into my training personal training career because I, you know, who, who, I don't know what I would have done, if I hadn't learned about like squatting deadlifting the importance of these bigger compound movements, maybe I would have been that trainer is just making you jump around doing burpees and making, right but I had some solid foundations that powerlifting taught me and I will be forever grateful for that experience. And I totally loved competing and it was super fun. But you know, you can go to the other extreme with any sport, any sport. And for me, it just kind of got like to be too much. That's why and I just kind of get I have workout add sometimes. So i That's why I went from powerlifting to Olympic lifting, but it was really cool. Because, like I said, when we first met, I was kind of into that bodybuilding. Like, I'm just gonna like to do like, you know, body parts split and whatever. And this was really cool because it shifted the focus from aesthetics, which most people have onto like, I want to get strong as fuck like, and it was really cool because now I'm like eating to fuel my body like I need to eat to fuel this performance if I want to do well in the meat and I just felt better overall. And I was like, wow, this is really cool. And I didn't get fat like I thought I would like back then right like moment eat more and I'm just gonna get fat. Like but no, it happened and I just got strong and looks better and yeah, it just it set the set the foundation for the brand. And that's why we're we want to help you help women especially get strong as shit. So yeah,

Philip Pape 13:58

I love that, Katie, I love it so much. Everybody listening should really listen to this episode and hear what you're saying. Because I hear the same thing, especially and I have women clients who they have to strain train, like, that's one of my prerequisites for working with me as a nutrition coach. And it always switches from a focus on the scale eventually to their lifts. And it's just a great transformation to see. And then you're right, it leads to the other things building and adding an including and not like restricting and cutting yourself down. Such such a great message. So yeah,

Katie Kollath 14:28

yeah, that is, that's our biggest message is we always want to add in things to people's lives because women especially they go into fitness because usually they want to look a certain way. And they're just like, I have to restrict I have to, you know, restrict my time so that it's only in the gym so I can see there's these results that I want but really it's coaching them and teaching them no you don't have to do that you can add these things look really good, feel really good, which is the most important and that's why we always like yeah, nutrition is so important. Like we talked about that all the time, but man strength training is just as important like it. I know people, you know, in the fitness industry, people are like, you know, it's 80% diet and 20% workout. I think that's bullshit. I think it's probably more so the resistance training and the strength training, because you can get away with a lot of shit when you when you do some resistance training, like obviously, even eating enough protein and calories is important, but it's like, man, people really overlook that aspect. Like, yeah, if your nutrition is on point, but you're doing a bunch of cardio training, like you're still not gonna get the body composition you want. And we all know the muscle. Yeah, we all know that's what women are looking for whether they think it's toning, whether they think it's whatever, getting lean and long muscles, but it's no, you have to strike right to build the muscle, because that's what they mean. So, see, this

Philip Pape 15:41

is why I want to do on the show, because in a way that I can't. And also I can't talk to women that way, necessarily. I wish I could do a one on one, but not. Oh, my God, that's that's awesome. I mean, I basically agree 1,000%. With, with what you're saying, and let's pick out some of those messages. One is that the training allows you to have more resilience and flexibility and everything else. Right. That's a huge message. Right? The other is, it's not all about diet. People who need to lose fat, probably need to fix their diet. But if you're not training, what are you going to do? You're just gonna lose muscle in the process. Exactly. So yeah, so every part of the step along the way, training has to be there. Yeah, I've even heard people talk about protein, like protein is important. But without the training signal, it doesn't do a lot for you would Yeah.

Katie Kollath 16:29

I mean, you can preserve some muscle if you're not training, but like, I'd rather see people eat protein than not either way. But yeah, like, if you're not sending the stimulus to your body to get stronger. Will it build muscle, then? Yeah, I mean, there's not really a I mean, there's a point always, I shouldn't say that. But it's like, they go hand in hand and you can't, you know, get the results you're looking for without both of them. So, yeah.

Philip Pape 16:53

Now from one coach to another, I like to appear behind the curtain with your process a little bit. You know, I am curious about the intake and all that. But I really want to talk about when you decided who you could serve and how you can help them. You sort of already talked about that. It's it became fairly clear. Maybe you were ahead of the curve back you said 2016 timeframe? Was it? Was it a more gradual process? Or did it? Did you kind of have to weed out the non ideal client over time? And now Now you've gotten that clarity?

Katie Kollath 17:22

Oh, my God, that was a process. Okay, yeah, they will kill me. No, no. We know, it has been a process. Because when you're starting out with in person training, you kind of just take whoever, right? So me, she would always get so frustrated, because I'm like, I don't want to niche down. I want to help everyone. Like, yeah,

17:41

I'm like a marketing person. So I understand that.

Katie Kollath 17:45

Yeah, so if you're working at a big box gym in Chicago, you're gonna get any and every one, right. I mean, there's like market conditions, like where your neighborhood is at, like you might get what type of person then you know, another but, but it's foot traffic. Exactly. So that wasn't something I ever thought about. Most personal training clients are women. So that's one of the more you know, prevalent type of person that you see, right is a woman. So that's why we're the basic foundation is like, Okay, we have like this powerlifting background, we know this is important, like the strength training aspect. And we we do serve a lot of women. Okay, that's kind of like, bare minimum. But then along the way, it's just like, I think you should talk about this as far as like the marketing piece, because it's, it's really important for if you want to build an online business, you have to have a niche, like, you can't just be like, I serve everyone, like, Yes, I can. But also you have to market to a certain person. So I feel like you should.

18:38

Totally I think it really shifted when we moved from Chicago to Colorado in 2019. So this was right before the pandemic, actually, yeah. Because we were starting to do some online things to supplement our income. We knew that we didn't want to do the, you know, 4am, client noon client and 7pm Client forever. No. So we, we wanted to have something online as well, hence, the blog and all that. But really, in 2019, when we moved across the country, together, we brought some people with us online. And that started kind of really the online portion of our brand. We have done some, you know, Excel, document training and things like that. But we didn't start using apps and all that jazz until we moved out here. And it just so happened it was about a year before the pandemic hit. Yeah, so the timing was I mean, unfortunately, it was good. Yeah. Not perfect. But yeah, it worked out well. And we even were able to so I since I've always worked at universities, I've always been a partner with various certification programs. So I was at the time I was a partner with ace. And I was doing I was teaching the ACE certification. So in my role at universities, I would train personal trainers. And so because I was a partner with them, we were able to create a course for other trainers, teaching them how to move their business online. So during the pandemic, that's one of the things that we did we don't do that anymore, just because now it's it's everywhere. But at the time, we were kind of able to jump on that Um, but anyway, back to the point of niching. Yeah, that's kind of when we really started honing in on our message a little bit more. And we really were attracting the people, mostly because of the way Katy talks.

Philip Pape 20:11

That's what it's all about, it's you, you're the product,

20:15

you're gonna turn some people off, and that's okay. And then you're gonna attract people that are really, really excited about what you represent. And we've always just been so value driven, like, we have always stood by our values and been very authentic. Like, we've never ever honestly, we've never partnered with like, a crazy supplement company or taken on any sponsorships, or anything that we didn't believe in. Yeah. And so, you know, sometimes that's hard to get a business off the ground. So that's why it took a long time. But now I'm very, very proud of it like, yeah, I feel really good about where we're at and what we've done and how we built it authentically. Yeah.

Philip Pape 20:49

I mean, just listening to your podcast, I could envision that the audience you know, and the people that are going to be attracted, you know, so it's so clear that, you know, like you said, you filter out people that just aren't gonna get it or want to work with you. Or maybe they'll get offended by how you talk or whatever it is, yeah. And you're gonna attract who you are. And that's, that's the differentiator, right? Because anybody can do the same type of programming and, you know, do mobility and do fall ROM and all this other stuff, but you are you are. So I will

Katie Kollath 21:14

say, I feel like people might be a little scared of me. I very much, am not like, I'm not gonna yell at you. If you're my client. Like, sometimes there is tough love. And honestly, that depends on the person to like, I have a couple of clients who they're like, I need you to just yell at me. And I'm like, to be sure, yeah, we respond really well to that. And I'm like, okay, and I have no problem doing that. But it's like, I'm not going to the way I talk on the podcast probably comes off like, kind of an asshole, but I can be, but I'm not. Most of the time,

21:45

leads with a lot of empathy. And

Philip Pape 21:47

you can hear that, yeah, the empathy. No, no, you really can you can hear the heart behind it. So I mean, totally. And I get it as entertainment. You know, I was we were joking before we even recorded like, I'm not your demographic at all. But I still love the show, because it's so entertaining. And that's, I love that. Yeah, it's like a form of Intel as a coach, of course, you know, the Insight is someone else's mind. But you you cover the topics that need to be covered with a little bit of, like I said, What a spunk or SAS or whatever. It's entertaining. And it's a it's two people, which is kind of cool, too, because I've never actually interviewed two people on a podcast. So it's kind of interesting again,

Katie Kollath 22:21

oh, this is good for you.

Philip Pape 22:24

You know, so it's very cool. All right. So why don't we get into a little bit of the the actual programming or the lifting side, which I like to dive in sometimes? Two things. One is the mobility approach to performance, you know, combining mobility with and leading that into strength. But then the other side is the full ROM, which I think there's a good segue between the two. Yeah, mainly, from the perspective, at least in my opinion, I hear a lot of times people say, Well, I have an issue with mobility, or I have bad knees, or I have whatever, and I can't squat to depth as a result. And I think we have it backward. I think it's you need to work toward depth with whatever lets you get there. And that gets you stronger in that full range, and then also improves mobility. But that's just me. What is your take on that?

Katie Kollath 23:05

Yeah, so it this is where like the individualization of a program is so important, because like you said, you can get one client who's coming to you with knee pain, and that's preventing them from squatting, you know, with a full range of motion, you might someone have someone else who has shoulder pain, and we have a lot of weakness in a you know, scapula area. So you have to prioritize those weaknesses and limitations that the person has, right. So that's why any, any program that you find on the internet is always going to be inferior to a personal training program. But obviously, that's not feasible for everyone. But I just want to illustrate the importance of that because your coach, if they're a good coach, they're going to, they're going to make that the utmost priority in their program, like keeping you out of pain and allowing you to work through a full range of motion is the absolute key to seeing success with your strength gains, your muscle gains, mobility gains, all of that, right. So with the mobility aspect, it's hard to the approach that I take is, okay, let's just say it's an it's a, your average person who has, maybe they have some, some work to do, right, the most common issues I see are weak hips, probably weak hamstrings, which potentially causes some knee issues, these are a lot of clients that I have. So we're going to be doing a lot of mobility work with that. And what I've found over the years is that if I program a warm up, they're never going to do it. So what I do is I sneak it into their program, so I create their warmup for them. So the approach I take is, okay, I'm gonna program let's just say the first few exercises, they're going to be more mobility focus exercises to prime them for whatever compound we're doing for the day. So and that obviously depends on the person if they're doing a full body workout, a more like upper body or lower body day or whatever it is. I'm going to look at the person where are their limitations, what do we need to work on? And I'm going to prioritize that at the beginning of the workout because not only there are they getting warmed up for the components, but we're making that the The thing that their body like is first doing in their workout. So it's going to be important, right and they're fresh doing it. So that that's one way especially, I will do that if the person is really having some issues, like if they can't get to whatever full range of motion we're trying to achieve, or if they are in pain, like that's going to be the main priority. And other ways I put it, put it at the end and what they're all They're still going to be exercises in the actual workout because mobility is strength training, right. So I think of mobility, and strength training, or mobility of a mobility exercise and more of a strength focused exercise, kind of like on a sliding scale, right. So there's more of like on the mobility, and there's more like your passive stretches right? In the middle. There's something like, so we love we've talked about a lot on our podcast, horse stance squat, which are probably new for people, but it's essentially just like a wider stance squat, which with your toes forward, and we're really working your, your hip strength, right, your quads strength, but we're also opening up your hips as well. So it's a really good hip in adductor mobility drill, too. So that's kind of somewhere in the middle for me, like you can gain a lot of strength. And that can apply to a movement, like a squat, or any of your lower body compound lifts. And it just kind of depends on like, where the person is at, like, I wish I could give you like a more straight on answer. But sometimes I'm doing mobility work at the beginning and the end of a workout for people, sometimes I'm throwing it in as just a warm up. So it's, it's so nuanced, but it's so important. Because once once you do it, and once you're, you're able to train through a full range of motion, it's crazy, the results, you're gonna get in just illustrating that with people who I've, let's say they can't get a full squat, for example, they're barely hitting parallel. And maybe we're doing barbell back squats, and I get them to take the weight off. And sometimes even like, I don't want to say, regress them, but bring them back to like a goblet squat, where they're the the weight is front loaded. So it's a little bit easier for them to get deeper because you have that counterbalance, kind of acting in the front of you. So they're able to sink deeper, and then their strength improves significantly and sort of their muscle because that's just to illustrate the power of training full through a full range of motion. So that's why mobility work is so important. Yeah. And

Katie Kollath 27:12

I think that we have to remember that mobility and stability go hand in hand, right? So a lot of people think they have a mobility issue. Yeah, when in reality, they have a stability issue or a strength in a specific range of motion issue, right. And so that is kind of where we start with everything, really, we look at your range of motion. And we know the ideal range of motion for your body, because it's different for everyone, right, but we can see it in your biomechanics. And then you know, we do some various tests and assessment and assessments. And we figure out where those weaknesses lie. And a lot of times, like Katie said, a lot of times it's hip weakness. People are like, Oh, my hips are tight. No, your hips are actually weak. A lot of times, yeah, or stability in their feet, right? Yeah, could be any of those things. Because one of the things that I do, and I know we're kind of honing in on the squats, but I see this a lot is, you know, maybe I'm doing an assessment with someone and they're barely hitting parallel. And then I'll have them hold on to like a pole or something. And I'm like, just sit in the bottom of a squat, and they can do it. I'm like, see your mobility is there because you lack the stability and the strength to do it. So

Katie Kollath 28:07

we just need to work on that. So that's why it's so yeah, it's so nuanced. And it just totally dependent on the person. So yeah.

Philip Pape 28:17

Katie Kollath 28:52

yeah. Great question. That is a really good question. So man, I wish I had like this really cool way that I could tell you, which could potentially help a person, you know, be an online coach, but really, it's just years of experience watching people and I'm in the years of experience watching people in person is key. And that's what I think is the most important thing is to get an experienced in person because you have to notice you have to learn on the fly, like to adjust the next set of needed or give them a cue in real time. So if I'm watching someone on a video, I you know, I'll analyze their set their a watch their whole video, right? If I'm noticing, noticing something, and sometimes I'm watching it twice, like, I can't figure this out, I can't pinpoint it. But it's more of just the longer that you train or you coach a person, the better you get to know how they move. And it's just the over time I just know, like I can, it just isn't another example. I can tell when people could do more weight to like, I can notice that pretty well in person, but I can see that on video too. Like, you know your first set looks similar to your last or your first rep look similar to your last rep we're going to add weight so it's the same thing with mobility like I can see someone's range of motion. And I can, you know, if their cameras good, like I can see like, like the quality of like where where they're at, you know, especially with different angles, it's sometimes hard with that, but I'll usually coach them like, can you get like more of a front view? Can you get a side view so I could see this. So it's less like real time in person, like, let's fix for the next set. It's more of like, okay, I want to work on this, this and this, watch this video before the next time you do this workout and apply it to the next time you do it. So yeah,

Philip Pape 30:29

yeah. And that and that approach. It's, it's great, because I think you're even giving the client a little bit more independence, because they have to take everything totally synthesizing their brain and then apply it. It kind of sets them up for even more success. Long term. At least it seems that way. That's a

Katie Kollath 30:43

good point, Philip. Like, I didn't even think of that. Like, it's really Yeah, it is really cool. Because a lot of the people they're a little nervous with, like taking videos and going into workouts are going to do the workouts on their own. And it doesn't power people because over like after a few weeks, they're like, Yeah, I got this like going to the gym like yeah, it's not a big deal anymore. So yeah, that's a really good point.

Philip Pape 31:02

Yeah, yeah. Added to marketing, marketing material. No, that's great. And the thing about seeing people in person is key. I definitely have heard trainers talk about that. Like, actually, I'm at my current coach for training is an online coach, who it's more in a club setting, because I don't need the one on one anymore. But he he was a trainer in person for years, you know, and he still has a club. So yeah, huge. Yeah. Yeah, for sure. It really? What about the skill based training? I think that's a term you've used skill based training, or resistance training as a skill. What do you mean by that? Yeah,

Katie Kollath 31:37

yeah, so all of the movements that you do when you're doing training or skills, right, obviously, they're gonna get you stronger and help you build muscle, but it's more of the mindset around it. So when people work out, they most people work out because they have some aesthetic goal, right. And that takes a long time. And you don't get objective feedback, really, even when you are reaching these goals. And maybe someone looking looking at you and maybe looking at your before and after picture, for example, and they can objectively see a difference, but you personally might not, because that's just how our brains are wired, right. So when you, when you think of your movements as skills that that to me, you're going in, you're practicing these foundational movement patterns that every human should do, and you're practicing them and you're getting, you're becoming essentially an expert at them, the more you do them, but when your mentality shifts to, I'm gonna try to achieve this goal or this skill in the gym, it completely changed your mind changes your mindset around training, because now every workout, you basically checked off a box, you know, as far as like, alright, I put in my work for the day or for the week, in along the lines of achieving this goal, even if even if it's just like we're talking about getting a full range of motion your squat, right. So that could be the skill you're working towards. Or like, we coach a lot of women to do pull ups like that, like that is more objective, and it's really empowering over, I want to look a certain way, because you're not going to see that after every workout, you might have the workout where you get your first pull up, and that's fucking exciting. Like, it's really awesome. And you have that objectively it happened, right? So and it keeps people coming back once we can get your mindset to, okay, like, we're gonna go to the gym, and I'm gonna achieve these skills for the day, I'm gonna do this work, I'm going to you know, try to apply whatever intensity I need to. And then okay, I've, I've accomplished something for the day versus I'm going to work out because I want to get six pack abs. Yeah, I'm gonna be a little discouraged, because I didn't get it in this workout, which people know, but like on paper, or people know, on paper, but like in their minds, like they want those quick results right away. So

33:38

yeah, and I think I think it's interesting, because if you look at the research behind adult learning, and you look at the research behind, like, when we learn things, what happens in our brains, it's amazing. And so we like to add that to fitness as well, right? Because you're getting not just more benefit, but it's also something's going to keep you coming back and keep you accountable and keep you showing up every time as you learn something you map. It's mastery, right? It's skill mastery. Yeah. Even if it's just the littlest thing, it's still mastering a skill and that does something very powerful. Especially you know, when it comes to like having competence over your own like body

Katie Kollath 34:17

Yeah, and it's, it's just fun when the when the side effects of training these skills is that you get stronger, and you tend to look better in your body composition starts to get better. But that's just, that is just a nice side effect that when you're focused on achieving these skills in the gym, you're not so obsessed with the aesthetic aspect. And when it happens, you're like, oh, shit, like, I wasn't even worried about it. And it happens. And I

34:39

think one of the hard parts about this because we talk about this a lot, but when it comes to like research on this, the interesting thing is that a lot of research when it comes in, like at least previous research in strength, and fitness has been on like machines, right? Because it's the easiest thing. So they're putting people on these machines, and then they're not getting that skill aspect. So I'm very interested in More and more of the research coming out of people actually doing like skill based movements like squats or deadlifts. Yeah, yeah.

Philip Pape 35:05

I love this. I love your passion for this too. But the whole thing about small wins, quick wins, keeping people coming back. And that's what it's all about. And haven't you heard? Or do you find that your clients, even their narrative and their language changes over time from, like you said, a mindset shift from the beginning to maybe they're even the ones seeking some of these gains that they never thought they would ask for. Right?

Katie Kollath 35:26

Yeah, it's pretty crazy. Like, just sometimes the one thing I focus on with people is just getting enough protein in. And I've had a few clients recently where we've really honed in on that, and they're consistently hitting their protein, and they're like, holy shit, I have never felt stronger than I have right now. And I'm like, Isn't that awesome? Isn't that really cool that you really didn't change anything else besides getting enough protein, and now look at you like, now you're, you know, maybe your PR and on your squats or whatever, but it's like, their, their mindset has shifted to like, I just want to like crush my training. And that's really cool to see. Because most people when they come to you, or you as in like any trainer anywhere, like, they want to lose weight, like that's the number one goal that people see, right? Or they want to get thrown in those weight. And it's just like, Okay, I've learned to not scoff at that. Because that's not how you, that's how you lose people really quickly. But over time, with coaching with, you know, some coaching and a lot of like, education for them, it slowly starts to like, click in their brains. And that's the really cool part. And that's the most fun part. Because it's like, now it's going to be part of their life, forever, forever. It's not just like, I have a wedding in six months, and I want to look this way. But now it's like, Oh, I feel really good doing this. And I want to continue doing this for life. So that's a revelation.

Philip Pape 36:48

Yeah, yeah. And so related to that, right, we talked a little bit about how strength training can then improve other things, right? Productivity, confidence, capability, performance, how you feel, not focusing on the scale, not focusing on food, or accept as fuel, you know, in a positive way. I think one of you maybe it was you, Heather, because you're more into the research. Did an eight week university program I think with women employees, I did. Yeah, we found some results, right. Can you tell us about that?

Heather Hamilton 37:18

Yeah, totally. So one of the universities I worked at, I did a little bit of a, okay, this was not like IRB approved or anything. So I actually do a whole resource project. But I did collect some data. And it was really interesting. And so what I did was I took a group of women and I created basically an eight week program, and it was resistance training twice, twice a week as a community. And we tested their one rep max, or excuse me, not their one rep max, their, I think it was their five rep max, actually, because at this point, some of them were not trained. So I would never test their one rep max right away. So we did like a five rep max test in the beginning of I think it was overhead press deadlift, there may have been a squat in there as well. And then, at the end of the eight weeks, we tested it again. But the other thing that we did alongside this was we did a survey, and we asked about, we asked them to self report how they felt in their jobs. So what was their confidence? Public speaking in their job when they had to speak in front of someone? What was their confidence, asking for a raise if they felt like they deserved one? How do they feel connected to their community at work? What was their productivity like? Questions like that, and the cool thing was, after the eight week program, not only did every single person obviously increase their five rep max for all their lifts, they also increase their confidence, they increase their productivity, and it was just really, really cool. And they also built community because we did it as a group, which was really neat.

Philip Pape 38:41

Awesome. Yeah. It's great to see the science and I mean, you know, from anecdotally, but it's really cool to just test it longitudinally like that in a short timeframe. Nice. Yeah. So yeah, I want to I want to ask you about your podcast. Okay. So Stronger Than Your Boyfriend, great name. Great podcast. And tagline. Yeah, right. It's good. That actually, you know, it's funny because I'm doing a speech for Toastmasters speaking in public speaking. Oh, wow. I kind of stole your title a little bit. Go my speech, and I called it stronger than her boyfriend. Implying that I want to be stronger than my daughter's wife when she gets older. But

Katie Kollath 39:19

she should be stronger than her if she

Philip Pape 39:22

did that. Yes. That's fine with me. Yeah. So the tagline is helping you navigate the BS and toxic misinformation in the fitness industry one episode at a time. And this is just my opinion, but I feel like we're kindred spirits when it comes to cutting through the insanity. Right? Yeah. The social algorithms, the stunts that you see online, the misleading dangerous, let's call it dangerous information. Yeah, usually for a quick buck or two cell Sunday. Yeah. So my question is, what is the most BS EBS, or, like radioactively toxic nonsense that you've seen?

Katie Kollath 39:59

Oh my God, I feel like we could do a whole hour,

Philip Pape 40:03

just pick the top three now,

Katie Kollath 40:05

it's man, a lot of it is going to relate to the fitness industry messaging towards women. And the and I know that slowly changing and that's why we talked about in the beginning, that's part of the reason why we started our brand, but it's just the we're do a bunch of cardio lose weight, long, lean muscles, toning, like all of that is not a thing. And the I guess it's it's just a lot of the Okay, eat less move more that in and of itself can work for some people. But for most people who are training and they've tried and tried so many things, it doesn't work for them. So that's why we're all about adding in, we're adding strength training, and we're adding protein and we're adding calories in and that I feel like is kind of the overarching, toxic is, I don't know that there's so many like toxic little nuggets you find here and there. And you can go on Instagram right now and get like a bunch,

Philip Pape 41:00

you can just go do that, though. Because then your algorithms get to just get your stuff

Katie Kollath 41:06

or whatever you're looking at. But yeah, it's just, that's why we've kind of built our brand and our target audience around that and why we decided to really do the podcast so we can talk about it long form and not try to like do these Instagram reels where people have you know, 15 second intentions, attention span, right? So it's like, how can we have to talk this through? And that's what we, you know, do give a little bit of research to try to help back up our claims. But it's more of like, Let's talk this through because that like eating less, moving more isn't the way and it's it's not going to be sustainable long term. So

Heather Hamilton 41:41

yeah, I think I mean, I think you nailed it.

Katie Kollath 41:43

Yeah. Man. I mean, I know you said one. But it's like, the, what I feel like I'm seeing right now, probably mostly on social media is like the, we're either going to cut out all vegetables, we're going to cut out all meat, we're going to cut out all our jobs, we're going to just cut, cut, cut, because this way is the this way or the highway. And I just think that is so toxic for people, because everyone's on social media in there. If you're someone into fitness, this shirt is going to pop up on your feed because of the algorithms. And you're going to learn that vegetables are bad for you. Because they have I don't know, some

Philip Pape 42:18

whatever toxic effects on your diets or something. Yeah, well, we

Katie Kollath 42:21

are we serious right now, it's hard enough to get people to eat whole natural foods. And now you're telling them to not eat vegetables, like, it's just, it's really that shit. I really just want to caution people to take with a grain of salt and do your due diligence. And like, if you really want to try a certain diet or whatever, that's fine, but do your research and like maybe talk to a professional who can maybe coach you through it. But that is the bullshit that I'm seeing right now. Because, like the I feel like this whole, like primal movement is like on Instagram right now. And it's like, what we're angry like, whatever.

Philip Pape 42:57

Yeah, like, yes.

Katie Kollath 42:59

We Yeah, let's eat, you know, a whole fucking raw liver and like, just be okay. Like, no. Like, like, let's have a more like balanced approach, like, Yes, try to eat whole foods as much as you can. But like, we also live in 2023. And there's cake and ice cream. And that's fun to eat sometimes. But as long as that's not, you know, the majority of your diet, it's going to be okay, you're not going to die like, or you're not going to just, you know, wipe all the things you've been working towards. Right. So, yeah, I

Heather Hamilton 43:27

think it's interesting because it has changed over the years, right? Because I think back in like 2013 or 2014. When we did that presentation, remember that we did a collegiate present a university presentation on fitness myths. Yeah. And back then I think it was, you know, way different than what's prevalent today.

Katie Kollath 43:42

Yeah,

Heather Hamilton 43:42

I mean, I think your question is valid, but I feel like you could ask us over different Yeah.

Katie Kollath 43:47

We should do this podcast next year and see what we've

Philip Pape 43:51

asked the same question. So here's the thing. On your most recent episode, you had a q&a and one of those was about seed oils, right? And I really appreciated your treatment of that because I'm fully in alignment. As a nutrition coach, nothing's off pretty much nothing's off the table. Other than maybe like trans fats or something in a very tiny corner. But even the way you treated seed oils was like this healthy skepticism or you said look, the evidence is equivocal, we don't quite know. Maybe don't take the chance and just don't cook with it on your own. But you're gonna go out to eat and you're gonna maybe get fat usually fine. It's gonna sneak in. But like, let's not you know, go panic about it. Yeah, start and start going the opposite direction saying is just going to kill you.

Katie Kollath 44:30

Yeah, and that should be your approach to your whole like, nutritional philosophy, right? Like, it's like, make the food at home that you cook like whole natural foods. And then when inevitably you go on vacation or you go out to dinner, like, don't stress about it, because you've been doing well like the majority of the time, so one meal is gonna kill you. One time you eat vegetable oils isn't gonna kill you. Like, I feel like that's a really big trend right now too. It's like this, all or nothing. Oils are gonna kill you. And it's like, where there is actually no A meta analysis that show that but also, I'm not going to take a chance because I know olive oil is really healthy for you have caught oil, coconut oil, like even butter in small quantities, whatever. Like, I just I think that's a little bit more nutritious personally,

Heather Hamilton 45:12

if you see the way that fuels are made, you're like, yeah,

Katie Kollath 45:15

so you don't take the chance. But like my family, my family was in town and we went out to dinner a few times, it was stressing and like, Hey, can you cook this and butter it? Like, please don't like touch my food with your seed oils? And no, I'm not gonna you're not gonna be weird. Yeah, not gonna be weird or do that. You know, and it's like, it's, it's okay, you're not gonna die. Like, I remember reading some thing. And I don't even know if this is true. They were like, yeah, if you eat vegetable oil, it stays in your system for two years. And it's just like, carcinogenic. And I'm like, why are we saying this? Why I feel like probably the other things that you're doing or not doing are probably more carcinogenic, or, you know, cancer promoting whatever you want to say. Then the small amount of canola oil that you might have eaten on your chicken like it's, it's Yeah, and

Philip Pape 45:58

these these rules or whatever, always put out as if it's a big secret, right? It's like, here's the thing. They're not telling you. Here's the thing, you don't know. I'm gonna lay it out on you. And by the way, it's like,

Katie Kollath 46:07

yeah, like, calm down, like your people are already scared. They're like, Oh, my God, carbs or Oh, my God fat. And it's like, what can you eat? Literally nothing. Because now the next thing they're gonna demonize is protein. I'm gonna put that out there right now. Like, do much protein is gonna kill you. And it's like, alright, well, then we're just gonna try to be plants and like, live off the sun. Yeah, no argument from me. No, yeah. So yeah, it's just a balanced approach. And with the vegetable oils, in particular vegetable and seed oils, it's like, we don't cook with them. But we're not gonna stress if we encounter them, you know, outside. So yeah.

Philip Pape 46:40

So a more positive Thai interior. No, no, that's cool. No, that's what we got. We got to lay it out. It's real. Yeah. Your podcast as well. I was curious if it's made you better coaches?

Katie Kollath 46:51

i Yeah, I think so. And we're, we've only been doing it for what, six months now? Yeah. So I think there's, yeah, there's a lot of room for for growth there as well. Podcast hosts and coaches, particularly, you know, me in general, because I do a lot more coaching than other I should say. But yeah, it's, it has helped and I, I have learned to, to definitely like, okay, take a step back and just listen and listen to others opinions, too. And like, think about, you know, what you're going to say before you say it more, because if you couldn't tell them more of the person that's just like, I'm gonna say whatever is on the top of my mind. So it definitely has helped me with that, because I still do have a few in person clients. And that applies to them as well, because I'm having conversations in real time with them. So even if we're not talking about anything, when it comes to fitness, I'm just like, oh, okay, your opinion is this? Well, let me let me come at you with, you know, a warm approach versus like, none other than that, like, I'm gonna debate your opinion in this kind of controversial way. So, so far, that's what I've noticed. Because I do have a lot of conversations with clients. And it's like, Okay, I just learned to listen and learn to think through your thoughts a little bit more. So yeah, I

Heather Hamilton 48:05

think it causes us to be a little more discerning when we're looking at various topics. And yeah, and things like that, when you're doing the research for podcasts, you know, you really want and you really want to give all the information you can that is legitimate. And so, you know, it does cause us to do I mean, our blog has always done that, too. Right. We've done a lot of research for that. But I don't know the podcasts. It's, it's yeah, we do a lot of them. We do two episodes a week. So

Katie Kollath 48:27

well, kind of going back with a vegetable slash seed oil example to illustrate this. Like we, I think a few years ago, we were very much on the train like we we don't want any vegetable oils in our Yeah, but then we wanted to do, or we, we saw some questions. We saw this kind of movement on Instagram, and we're gonna do this, you answer this question on the podcast. And I'm like, you know, I started the initial research on him. And I was like, Heather, I cannot find anything, like any long term study that shows this is harmful. And I think we, we saw some other

Heather Hamilton 48:57

there's like, there's a lot of correlation relationship, but there's no, we can't say causation yet. Yeah. You know, we have to be real about that. And that's the thing with science is your opinion is going to change. And so yeah, I'm sure that there are episodes that we're gonna go back next year and be like, well, guess what, yeah, data has come out and we are changing our mind about that. Yeah. And we've learned about this,

Katie Kollath 49:15

but that's science and it's always going to change and that's

Heather Hamilton 49:19

how coaches evolve and that's totally natural. Any coach that's like No, I still believe this thing from 20 years ago. They're

Katie Kollath 49:26

just like, if when I first started I would try to almost make everyone a powerlifter like not that they would compete but I was like you're gonna squat bench and deadlift, but grandma, grandma Karen you know who's 75 and is never strength train in her life. I don't think she really should be doing barbell back squats yet. Like we could work towards getting there. But we need some, you know, variations to build up to that. So it's like, it's kind of you know, it's it's definitely there's nuance and everything and you just have to be open enough and open minded enough to be able to change your opinions and be okay with it and like not really care are what people think because you're always going to have people who are in those like dogmatic camps, like vegan carnivore seed oil, but like all this, and those people are just going to be those people. But most people aren't. Most people have opinions but are open to change. And that's what you have to be as a good coach, you have to be open to changing your mind, and be okay with it and not be embarrassed by it. But also, like, be willing to grow from it. Because you're always going to do that. And you as you know, you should you should always be trying to grow in your career in your life, you know, etc. So,

Philip Pape 50:31

excellent. I just wanted to pause at that those thoughts, because it's, it's all great stuff. And I agree podcasting is has so many values for not only the research part of it, but even consider being on others. And you have I know you've interviewed folks on your podcast as well, I'm sure you, like even selfishly ask them questions that you want to learn which then the audience learns from Yeah. That way, too. Yeah.

Katie Kollath 50:54

Yeah. Yeah, it's been really fun. We're starting to get more and more people on the podcast, which is gonna be really fun for me.

Philip Pape 51:01

know for sure. Okay, so second, the last question, I like to ask this of all guests. And that is what What question did you wish I'd asked? And what is your answer?

Katie Kollath 51:10

Hmm, I think we're, we're, this is our hard one that we were talking about right before this. But I maybe being a female coach in this industry has its challenges. It's a very male dominated industry. So how we've kind of pushed through that, because personal training in general, the turnover rate is insanely high. So like, when I had the gyms in, in Chicago that I that I worked at, like, there was trainer after trainer, like there was a select few trainers that were there for years, I was probably one of the only women who was there for years at the gym that I was at. So yeah, just kind of pushing through that. And I don't say competing, but being up against like a very being, you know, integrated in a very male dominated industry, which I feel like a lot of industries are, but this one specifically is hard, because a lot of people don't see women as authorities. And I think that's slowly changing. But if you're training with a big jacked guy, which, you know, felt like it's easier for you to build muscle, right? You're a guy. So it's like,

Philip Pape 52:24

I don't know, I don't

Katie Kollath 52:26

know, like, if you're, if you're, you know, a client, and then you get me who's like a smaller woman, and I have some muscle, but like, you know, I'm not like walking around in a tank top and shorts. So it's like, but then you see this jack guy, and okay, he's, he's super jacked. And he's really muscular and rich, like, I'm gonna listen to him. So even though I might have better information, or my coaching style, maybe will fit with him a little bit more. It's that, you know, working through that was was interesting, and I don't hear a lot of female coaches talk about that, nor do I ever hear them get asked that too. So I guess that's the answer. Yeah. No, I

Heather Hamilton 53:07

think that's a good answer. We just had an episode two on our podcast pretty recently. Well, I don't know when this will come out. But it was called How to fire your trainer. And we talked about this. And we talked about what makes a good trainer and how, as the client to find that, and what red flags to look for, and things like that. But that kind of goes along with what Katie is talking about, like, it's fitness in general, a lot of times it's about image, and we are definitely like is not our brand. Right. And so that has been hard, and then throw on top of that being a woman and then throw on top of that being a gay woman. Yeah, you know, it's just been a challenge. And so I guess that's just something we kind of wanted to talk about. Yeah,

Katie Kollath 53:43

it's, you know, and again, I think this is definitely changing now. But if you were a successful female coach, you probably looked a certain way, like you had, you know, clinical body. Whereas, like, a lot of the guys, the guy trainers that I worked with, didn't you know, and which shouldn't matter, right, it shouldn't matter. But it's like I was almost a lesson because I wasn't super rich or jacked like them. And that I had to work three times as hard to get someone's respect and get them to trust me, in that I knew what I was doing versus like, I'm gonna go to this jock guy who like maybe even has a little beer belly, but he's jacked and he's a guy. So that is what I've personally and like, whatever people can get, get their wool bullshit fired up, like you know, they're so like, offended by quote, unquote, woke culture, but I'm telling you my experience as a female coach, and that is a big part of what I experienced when I first started. So if you want to, like chalk it up to walk woke culture or whatever, like go for it, but I'm telling you, like, you can have your opinions but when you actually live it and you kind of grind through it like it's, it was rough, and I'm honestly surprised I stuck through it, but I just like, I really, you know, figured out the passion for helping people and to help change this message. Even if it's just, we're a small part of the fitness industry, even, you know, the small impact we have on our little community. Like, it's worth it for both of us. So it's awesome.

Philip Pape 55:09

I mean, that's what I was gonna follow up was gonna be how, how can you change the message? I mean, you're already doing it right. But how can others listening? Help? Yeah, yeah,

Katie Kollath 55:17

yeah, we'll share our listen to our podcasts. And that's the best way. Because if you, you know, if you look at the episode titles, and it's a topic that you're interested in, like, just having the ability to talk through it long form, and hash out ideas, it's, you, whatever your opinion is, or not, like, you can still agree with us, or you could still disagree with us, but you've still listened to our experience and our the research that we've done, and also our opinions as well. So it's just a really good way to, to get to know us. And potentially, you know, change your mindset around fitness, which we've had just sharing, you know, the podcasts in different Facebook groups or whatever, social media platforms, and I've gotten some messages like, wow, I would have never thought of, you know, working out this way, or strength training this way, or eating more this way? Or, you know, etc, etc. So, yeah,

Philip Pape 56:10

changing lives. That's awesome. Yeah. Oh, yeah. No, and my last question is gonna be where can people find you? So obviously, you can download your podcast? Yeah. And then where else? Can they find you?

Heather Hamilton 56:19

Yeah, so our website is bar path. fitness.com. So you can find it there. You can download our what is it? How to find your maintenance calorie guide? And, you know, get added to the newsletter. And then we do have a Facebook group as well. Yeah, right now called Stronger Than Your Boyfriend. Yeah, just like the just like the podcast. Um, so you can jump in there, too. Sometimes we do challenges and things like that. Yeah, we

Katie Kollath 56:41

do challenges. We do live trainings. If you want to like post, we're gonna post a video of yourself lifting and you want some like form analysis, we're on there and critique it. I mean, that's where we're at right now. I mean, we we plan on the the Facebook group to continue to grow, so I don't know if that will, it will stay that way. So I would take advantage of it now. But yeah, and then social, the social media, social media. Mostly Instagram, Instagram, and Facebook is where we're most active @barpathfitness on Instagram. We do posts a little on the tick tock. Sort of, we potentially might get better at it. We'll see. But that's it's the same handle @barpathfitness. So yeah. All right,

Philip Pape 57:21

cool. So all that's gonna be in the show notes. No matter what. I'm gonna encourage people who are listening to download your podcast Stronger Than Your Boyfriend. Definitely go check out the same Facebook group. And then your website, which is barpathfitness.com. Yes. Perfect. And I mean, this was so much fun. This is one of the best interviews I've had on the show. Why two way?

Heather Hamilton 57:39

Do you say that everyone? Yeah,

Philip Pape 57:40

do you think you can go it's on the record, go listen,

Katie Kollath 57:43

I show it's gonna feel I'm gonna go back and listen. I might have thought,

Philip Pape 57:47

Should I say that? And I'm like, No, I'm gonna reserve it to that I really mean it. And so well, you have so much integrity, like that's what really comes out all of this, whatever the specific message is, the importance is you've got the value and the integrity, and it shows. So thank you so much for taking the time. I'm very grateful that you came on the show.

Katie Kollath 58:06

Thank you so much. Thanks for having me. So awesome. And we're excited to have you on ours. Yes, looking forward to it. Yes. Well, thank you so much. This was so much fun.

Philip Pape 58:16

Thanks for listening to the show. Before you go, I have a quick favorite ask. If you enjoy the podcast, let me know by leaving a five star review in Apple podcasts and telling others about the show. Thanks again for joining me Philip Pape in this episode of Wits & Weights. I'll see you next time and stay strong.

Philip Pape 3/24/23 Philip Pape 3/24/23

Ep 55: The “Best” Diet for Weight Loss and Finding Food Freedom with Kate Bay Jaramillo

Today we dive into some hot nutrition topics. What is the “best” diet for weight/fat loss and how can women over 40 prioritize and optimize their health? Should you consider intermittent fasting (time-restricted feeding), especially for women? How can you unleashing the power of your mind to create results?

We touch on disordered eating habits and body image concerns, and what to do if someone is resistant to change or has difficulty following their nutrition plan. Finally, we discuss the online nutrition coaching business, establishing a unique niche, and the best way to measure the success of your nutrition coaching to keep improving.

My guest is Kate Bay Jaramillo, a business coach of mine who has helped me serve clients and listeners better than I could ever have imagined and has impacted many other coaches and clients during her career.

Kate is a Master Fitness Instructor, Nutrition Business Coach, and cookbook author. She is the Founder of Ketogenic Living 101, and the Co-Owner and Director of Client Success at Beyond Macros. If you’re a nutrition coach, check out their Facebook group, called Online Nutrition Coach Community #ONCC, where you can meet Kate firsthand and see all of the great work she’s doing.

Most importantly, Kate is a loving wife and mother of four amazing children. In her spare time, Kate enjoys traveling, cooking, and coaching elementary cheerleading.

Today you’ll learn all about:

How Kate got into the fitness, nutrition, and business coaching space
The “best” diet for weight loss
How women over 40 can prioritize and optimize their health
Intermittent fasting (time-restricted feeding), especially for women
Why nutrition and fitness (whole-body wellness) are essential
Unleashing the power of our minds to create results
How to balance the need for individualized plans with science
Disordered eating habits and body image concerns
Clients who are resistant to change or have difficulty following their nutrition plan
Differentiating from other online nutrition coaches with a unique niche
Measuring success of your business to keep improving

Episode resources

Visit the Online Nutrition Coach Community
Find Kate on Facebook here
Watch the episode on video here

👉 If you want to learn more about lifting and nutrition, reach out to Philip:

IG: https://www.instagram.com/witsandweights/
Email: philip@witsandweights.com

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Transcript

Philip Pape 00:08

Welcome to the Wits & Weights podcast, where we discuss getting strong and healthy with strength training and sustainable nutrition. I'm your host, Philip pape, and in each episode, we examine strategies to help you achieve physical self mastery through a healthy skepticism of the fitness industry, and a commitment to consistent nutrition and training for sustainable results. Welcome to another episode of Wits & Weights. I think you're going to love my guest today because her expertise her energy positivity, ability to inspire are infectious. We know each other because she's a business coach of mine who has helped me serve clients and listeners better than I could ever have imagined and is impacted so many other clients and coaches during her career. Her name is Kate Bay hmil. And Kate and I are going to chat about some of today's hot nutrition topics, such as specific diets for fat loss, health for women over 40 intermittent fasting, the importance of training and the connection between mind and body when it comes to getting results. We'll also get into the business side of coaching a bit she lets me Kate is a master fitness instructor, nutrition business coach and cookbook author. She's the founder of ketogenic living one on one and the co owner and director of client success at beyond macros. If you're a nutrition coach, check out their Facebook group called online nutrition coach community, hashtag lNcc, where you can meet Kate firsthand and see all the great work she's doing. Most importantly, Kate is a loving wife and mother of four amazing children. In her spare time Kate enjoys traveling, cooking and coaching elementary cheerleading. Kate, I'm genuinely ecstatic that you're here. I'm looking forward to this conversation and trying to match your incredible energy.

Kate Jaramillo 01:50

Oh, thank you so much for having me. I'm so excited to be on Wits, & Weights, I've been like following you and watching you and it's awesome.

Philip Pape 01:58

Yeah, let's start at the top. And then I'm sure we're gonna have a great conversation. Just you know how you got here, what your story is, and how you got into the space of fitness of nutrition. And now nutrition, business coaching.

Kate Jaramillo 02:10

So it all started with a spin class. I used to work at the Greater Philadelphia Chamber of Commerce. And we had a company membership at the best gym in the city. Like it's where all the celebrities go and train when they're in town. So I got to meet some interesting people and watch them train. But going that gym offered a spin class and I had never done that before. But a co worker of mine was like, Oh, come to this class with me. Dark lights, EDM music, and my heart is like pounding. I was like, Oh my gosh, I found my soulmate workout. So I did it for a few years. And I was like, I should get certified in this. Because if I listen, if all else falls apart, I could be a spin class DJ. I really good, like music and my glasses. So I did that. And I you know, I was like teaching classes. And then after the birth of my first daughter, I didn't go back to work. I was like holding my little baby. I'm like, I can't leave you. I want to be with you all the time. So I didn't go back to my job. And I just started teaching fitness classes and getting certified in additional formats. As you mentioned, I became a master trainer. So I was training the trainer's in like Insanity and p90x, I was doing PIO and turbo kick, I was actually certified in turbo kick by the Creator Chalene Johnson, which is super cool. And people would always ask me in my classes, you know, what should I eat before my class what she after my class and trying to lose weight and trying to build muscle, blah, blah, blah. And I was telling them what I did. But I felt like I needed to know more so that I could do more and give more. And I actually, my first certification in nutrition was through the Institute of nutritional leadership, which is run by Dr. Josh Axe. And he was the one that actually turned me on to keto ketogenic likes. Now, the reason that he turned me on to it is because he said that this is this is what he uses to help his clients who have been stuck, break plateau, break through weight loss plateaus, and lose weight quickly. Well, at this time, I had had, you know, a group of women following me, and there was like, 20 of them that were completely stuck. So I reached out to them, and I was like, hey, like, I want to do something a little crazy. I want to coach you on something called keto. It flips everything that we know about nutrition up on its head, but I feel like it could work. So 10 of them said Yes, I got nine of them to complete an eight week program with me. And the average amount that these women were losing was like 20 pounds. So I knew that I was onto something. Now full disclosure, I did not have a weight loss goal. Either, you know good genetics or just working out a lot. I didn't have a weight loss goal. But what I found was a total increase in energy and men Well, clarity, I wasn't grabbing for that 2pm 3pm cup of coffee from my energy son. So I really latched on to the ketogenic lifestyle, and I coached more people on I was developing programs. And I decided like, this is what I really want to focus on. So let me Google, like keto coach certification. That's really what I want to do. And I'm doing all this searching and I'm, I'm finding nothing, there was no specialty certification. So by this time, I was pretty well connected in the health and fitness industry. I was working with a great mentor. And I approached her and I was like, hey, like, this doesn't exist. And she's like, Oh, my God, build it, I'll help you. So that's what I did. And I worked with people who are much smarter than me. And we created together the first ketogenic coach certification. And it was the first one that was continuing education credit approved. Through that I actually met my business partner, Matt, because I started writing certifications for other health and fitness companies. And we came together to collaborate on guiding other coaches in creating their own coaching programs, their own lifestyle programs, their own certifications. And the rest so far is history.

Philip Pape 06:15

Yeah, I love that. There's so much I didn't know about your history there. And it's funny how, you know, think if you had written that path for yourself, it would probably not look anything like that. Today, right.

Kate Jaramillo 06:27

I went to school for broadcast and communications. Yeah, like I worked in a TV station before I worked for the Chamber of Commerce.

Philip Pape 06:33

Got it. You know, I could see that I can see the you know, TV. Yeah. Yeah. So that's cool. So you, you were you're doing the spin class, you branched off into some other areas of fitness, the insanity of p90x? Yeah, not just organically clients, you know, saw you as a helpful person, I'm sure. And they started asking you about nutrition. And you found something that worked. And, you know, we don't have to pussyfoot around it. Like, you know, I'm a big fan of flexible nutrition and individualizing your nutrition, and I have nothing against a specific diet, if it's the right thing for people. Right. So, you know, you discovered that it was helpful to folks, and it led to kind of a broader mission, right with Matt and with now beyond macros to help coaches build that. So maybe maybe we segue into the next topic, which is what is the best diet and this kind of a setup? Right? What is the best diet for weight loss or fat loss?

Kate Jaramillo 07:24

Yeah, the best one is the one that you can follow that feels good for you. So that's, that's also helping you reach all of your health markers. Because something that I've learned throughout the years is that weight loss and weight gain are a side effect of something else that's going on in the body. So I learned so much about inflammation and toxicity. In just like, what I'm what we're putting into our bodies and our thoughts that we're having about what we're putting into our bodies, and how all of the things are tied together sleep and stress and movement, how it's all tied together. And I know for so many people, right? Like so many people have had a ton of success with keto. And what I noticed for myself, was that I wanted to experiment a little bit more with carbohydrates and what my carb tolerance was. So this is really crazy. But like, I told you, I didn't have a weight problem. I did have a sugar problem. I'm originally from Hershey, Pennsylvania, like, where chocolate is made. Legit, like pictures of me as a child with chocolate milk in my bottle. Like we and I grew up in a huge dessert family like we were always eating desserts and snacks. Yeah, we got like, one time I like made my boyfriend the time like drive to 711 with me and like the middle of the night. I was like, I need chocolate milk. Like so I really get the plight of people that have sugar issues. And I noticed that like I was really gross, but I was like in my 30s and I was like developing like like little skin tags. I was like it what is this? This is so gross. This is like from hormones and babies and all the things and I didn't realize at the time, but that can be a sign of pre diabetes. Okay, so something that keto helped me with was managing that sugar addiction, like I was able to break past it. And the skin tags like disappeared. But I also wanted to start incorporating more carbohydrates into my diet. And the reason I wanted to do that was because I just felt like I was hitting walls with like teaching fitness. There was a time where I was teaching like 15 to 17 group fitness classes a week, and especially if you're on the bike, or if you're doing like really heavy cardio cardio activities, like Insanity. I just was like I was gas like I was starting to run out of energy. So I wanted to experiment with incorporating more carbohydrates, especially because I've moved past like the sugar addiction phase of my life. So I started doing this with like some some carb cycling. And I want to tell you, I hated it. What Has it required so much precision, in like tracking and everything. So I know for some people who really love to look at numbers and feel really good about tracking and measuring and weighing, something like that can work great for you. For me, it was not sustainable, because that is not me. I like to eyeball things I like to put stuff together. And I love food, I love food. And I don't want to just like restrict things all the time. So I'm the best I like that would have not been the best diet for me to follow. I gradually started just incorporating carbohydrates when I felt like I wanted them. And like, knowing what I know about nutrition, I was using things like rice and sweet potatoes and regular potato and things like that. And sometimes like just different beans and legumes and things like that. And I was fine. I didn't have cravings, I wasn't gaining weight, I felt really good. I then I just started to play with more protein and eating instead of eating like 70% Fat 25% protein 5% carbs. Really like playing with those numbers to to a point where now, I know that I'm eating like about a gram of protein per pound of body weight, and carbs and fats, I don't really track I don't track protein anymore, either. But I got to a place where I was like, I like to track anything. I have a Rolodex of favorite foods. And I eat pretty simply, when I want to follow a recipe or get fancy I do. But for the most part, I like protein and vegetables and fruit and some carbs. For me that is the most sustainable thing for anybody. It's got to be food that they enjoy. Otherwise, you're never going to feel satisfied, never. And you will always be looking for that thing that is going to satisfy your tastebuds. Right. And you will end up over eating. So it's sustainable because you enjoy it. You love the food that you're eating. It meets your lifestyle goals, right? Like some people have tons of time to food prep, some do not. So like food, like you like the food, it meets your lifestyle goals. And it makes you feel good in your body.

Philip Pape 12:15

Yeah, I want to unpack all this because I'm just resonating with so much here both personally and with clients. You went through a process of experimentation. And even though even though we could easily dismiss, you know, named diets, and people do that all the time, we go to extremes, right of either these are all terrible, or the other extreme of everything's intuitive. And you don't need any guidance whatsoever. You like me, I went through many of those diets? And I'm glad I did. Because they teach you about what you like, and don't they broke your sugar addiction. It sounds like to some extent, yeah. And there are definitely some benefits of cutting things out. But it wasn't the process of cutting them out. It was you discovering what works for you. And then, you know, for you it was sustainable. So I really love that. And you you realize that, hey, I need to perform now. So maybe I need carbs back in because that's not working for me. That's That's amazing, Kate, because that's what we talk about all the time is tracking is not for everyone, right? specific foods aren't for everyone. And you've got to find what works for you. So that's really great message. The protein I love how you throw the target out there that one gram per pound. We all know that. That's like the magic number we have to hit. Okay, so I'm, I'm going on a lot here. But the healthy dietary pattern and what works for you sound like the key messages here.

Kate Jaramillo 13:31

Yeah, and the food that you like,

Philip Pape 13:33

right, like and the food that

Kate Jaramillo 13:36

I remember somebody, someone in our family, helped my husband's family had like, he wanted to work with me on keto. And I'm looking at all this foods, right and also what he has access to. And it was mostly carbs, right? He was eating lots of like oedipa and rice and beans and things like that. And as I'm going through this with him, and I'm asking him a lot of questions like would you be willing to not eat this? Or would you be willing to make your plate look like this? It came down to No, right? So it's like, okay, what could we right? So like, what could we fill your plate with? Where we're adding in like things that we we are really going to fuel you and help your whole body become healthier? Yes. And that you like and what can we kind of crowd out not eliminate? But what what can we just crowd out a little bit. And what we found there was he was still able to put in rice and beans ended up and like just leaner cuts of protein and making sure that we had vegetables. So what he originally came to me for we didn't do at all because he never would have looked truly and I say this was massive love but he never would have been able to follow like a traditional ketogenic lifestyle approach right when setting them up for failure.

Philip Pape 14:51

Right. Yeah, the crowding out is a huge thing. I found that as well with protein. It was a pleasant side effect when you try to get 150 grams of protein that you start eating a lot more whole foods just because you can't help it comes from animals and plants. And it's hard to find that and packaged and processed foods, right? Yeah. So, okay, why don't we have so much on my plate for this. Or if you really love things like desserts or alcohol, or whatever you plan it in, you work it into your diet. You mentioned food making you feel good, too. It's funny, because there's a, I'm actually coaching a teenager as one of my clients. And we're working on just habits, you know, not like tracking weight or anything. And, you know, one of her wins was, now when I eat such and such, it just doesn't make me feel good, because she has transitioned into the things that make her feel good, right. So a lot of people can resonate with that. And maybe if you're listening and listening to Kate, if what you eat kind of makes you feel the same all the time, but you haven't met your goals. When you start to transition to a different dietary pattern, you might start feeling better, and then realizing those things, were keeping you kind of sluggish and not feeling great on a continual basis. Do you agree with that?

Kate Jaramillo 16:05

Yeah, I totally do. And that really hits home with me, because I have I have three daughters and the son like my son is youngest. He's the baby. And I always am very conscious of how I talk about food. Like I don't, I used to call for food, good, bad, crap, junk, you know, and those things and Yeah, and like, that is so like, disempowering for my daughters. And I don't want them to think of food that way. So we've transitioned into calling certain things like always food and sometimes food, we do have a never food and it's faster. If something if like, you know, there was something really fun, that was our only option, it's our only option, but

Philip Pape 16:50

you are the parent, you know, you can.

Kate Jaramillo 16:52

No, and it truly is like another food for us. Like if we were like stranded and we needed something to eat, maybe. But I'd probably pack it something anyway. But so and they're, they're great. They're totally on board with that. And they've been able to feel into their bodies a bit more to love to what you said about how food, like just noticing how food makes you feel like if you're sluggish. And if this is your like, if this is how you're feeling a lot of the time. I think that so many people are used to feeling bad. That it's just like it's their normal. Yeah, that's right, but it's still not natural. Like we are not built to be like slow and sluggish and brain farty and all the things like we're truly built to like, perform and run and jump. Yeah, totally, and love and have these amazing conversations with people. So if those are things that you cannot experience, most of the days, then yeah, it's time to take a look at what you're putting in your body and your mind.

Philip Pape 17:55

Yeah, yeah, your body, your mind, you know, how you move. And I, you know, take control, right? There are things we use as excuses. And maybe maybe I want to transition here into talking about a specific demographic that we wanted to chat about, which is women over 40. Yeah. And many of my listeners are many of my clients, are there unique considerations for women over 40, because of dramatic changes in hormones, the pressures on their metabolism and muscle mass and bone density with age, maybe recovery from training, which I know can differ between men and women a bit. So how can women over 40 prioritize and optimize their health to create this this vibrant, you know, exciting new phase of life? Based on everything we're talking about?

Kate Jaramillo 18:37

Yeah. Okay. So one of the things for me has definitely been like, as I shared earlier protein, I'm really like, that has made such a huge difference in my life. And so I actually do a little bit of nutrition timing. So I strengthen conditioning train, and we can talk about this in a bit because I know your love how aligned you are, with the importance of like actually moving your body. So I do something conditioning training six days a week. And you know, I stretch and I recover, and it's all good. And I have a protein shake that I've it's like the same thing. But I have a protein shake after each of my training sessions, and I put collagen in my coffee. And for me, those have made a really huge difference. So I would say like you mentioned bone density, you mentioned recovery. Protein is really important for us. It just is for all of those reasons. And it's going to fill us up and it's going to mitigate our cravings, and it's going to help us reach our calorie goals. Because as I'm sure you know, from working with so many women, we have been sold on this deprivation dieting for so long, that we've been eating so little, and it's crashed on metabolisms. So you may have heard that, you know, eating like, Oh, my clients are losing weight because they're eating more. Yes. And they're eating or have have the proteins and the whole food sources. And in order to lose weight, they're still in a slight deficit. Right? That's so important because I'm like, oh, yeah, no, I'm gonna be like 500 calories. Now it's like, cool, but I want it because when you burn, but Right, like you still have to be in a deficit in order to lose weight, and you have to be eating enough. And if you're super confused about this, talk to Phillip,

Philip Pape 20:25

just real quick to break down kind of what you said about eating more and then not gaining or you are losing. Right? There's, there's not just the intake, there's the metabolism. And basically, what you're saying is, finally, you're eating enough of the right things in the right amounts that you've recovered and actually burning more calories a day. So now, your metabolic furnace has outpaced the additional food. It's kind of the best of both worlds at that point.

Kate Jaramillo 20:49

It truly is, oh my gosh, it truly is. And when you start like rubbing that up, and eating more, you're like, Oh, my God, like everything is so much better in my life, right? And your body finally feels safe, right? It finally feels safe to actually release weight versus hibernate. And just be like, Well, no, I have to store everything. Because I don't know when you're going to feed me again. And I'm really scared. Right. So that is a really important thing for women over 40 as our hormones are changing, I want to mention intermittent fasting, because it's not something that I do. And the reason I don't do it is because for me, for me personally, it slows me down. Like I noticed that if I stretch and this is really like, so intermittent fasting is really just time restricted eating right, and it's just giving our bodies time to rest and digest. For some for some people like a 16 eight window works really well 16 hours of not eating anything, and eight hours of eating things, right where you would eat all your calories and macronutrients in that time. That used to feel good for me. And then truly, all of a sudden, it stopped feeling good for me, and I started feeling cold and sluggish. And those are signs that your thyroid is slowing down, okay, like, ladies, when we hit like 40 Plus, things are moving around, things are changing, Don't f with your thyroid, it controls lots and lots of like hormones and functions and things that make you like energized or not, and things that affect your metabolism. So if you have been restricting your eating and you're feeling tired and sluggish and cold, you got to eat, okay, you need to eat a little bit more frequently. I have worked with other female clients who swear by fasting, and I noticed that these women are also very inflamed. So it could be from an autoimmune condition. It could be that they are like highly insulin resistant, which is like, we can call it pre diabetic or diabetic type two. So these are just things to like look out for once you hit that 40 plus mark when things start to change in your body. If you're noticing that your bones and your your your joints are aching, you're dealing with weight loss resistance, and you can't pinpoint it, your doctor tells you that your blood sugar is really high. If your triglycerides are really high, doing a bit of time restricted eating may work great for you. However, if you have been doing this, and you're feeling like I was failing, that's not going to work for you. Right, like that's simply not going to work. So more protein, eating enough to support your body. All really important moving, moving, picking up heavy things, we're not gonna get bulky like that just like but moving and doing strength training, resistance training, picking up heavy things. So you mentioned in my intro, like I coach elementary cheerleading, I like they are constantly like their shoelaces are coming on tight. Like so many of them are like, I don't know how to tie my shoe. I don't know how

Philip Pape 24:09

anyways, like, I don't know how to double.

Kate Jaramillo 24:13

No. And so like, I think about this all the time, like I crouched down really low. And I'm like in this deep squat tying their shoe and I'm standing right back up and every time I do it truly every time which is multiple times a chair practice. I'm thinking to myself how grateful I am for a body that is So functionally fit in my 40s

Philip Pape 24:35

Yeah, no, I love that. I do want to get into strength training. I just want to rewind a second and talk about some of the other things you mentioned. I think the the protein is not in dispute, although people could be listening for the first time and wondering, wow, I really need that much protein and that's that's interesting. I didn't know you know, mitigating cravings and all that. But you talked about time restricted feeding and feeling cold, which that's pretty cool. I hadn't hadn't heard that before. It makes sense. So I know when I'm when I'm bulking and eating more, I just feel hot more often. Yeah, my wife who eats less just feels colder. So that's a really cool signal. And the other thing is just more generally, the thing you've been doing in your 20s and 30s, may stop working. And don't don't take for granted that, you know, your body is always changing. This goes for men too, but women especially, and try something new, right? I lean gained for like eight years doing intermittent fasting and fasted training. And I was doubly making the argument that I'm fine, and I perform fine, but I know because when I got off of it, my lifts all went way up. And I felt better that I should have not been doing for all those years, you know? Yeah. So just just think, keep that in mind what Kate's saying and try some different things. If you don't intermittent fast, and you're struggling in some way, could be a tool to try at the same, you know, same way. So really cool stuff, Kate, let's get into strain training. You know, that it's pretty much a requirement of working with me, for my clients that they have to not already be doing it. But a lot of them start with me. And I know you're an advocate of the whole body wellness, that we've just been touching on quite a bit. So I want to hear your take on the balance between nutrition and strength training. You know, we know nothing is black and white. There's not like it's at 20 in this net. Like, what do you think of the balance there?

Kate Jaramillo 26:20

I mean, I think it's, I think it's equally balanced? I truly do. I really feel like there's such a focus, we look at nutrition on what like what to eat, to lose weight, instead of what to wait, what to eat, to be healthy, how to move to be healthy, how to live to be healthy. And I've worked with people who have lost weight, and they've looked like skinny fat, there's been nothing else on them. And we don't we don't want to feel that way. And we actually put ourselves at risk for injury. And ladies, let me tell you something, the more muscle you have, where you can eat. It's really like the more your body just it needs, right? The more calories your body needs to just like function because your muscle is burning those calories, like you mentioned, when you were bulking, you're eating a lot. You're feeling really odd, like all the time. That's absolutely true. Yeah. And, okay, so when I have, like, I have lots of babies, I have nursed them all. And I've been one of those women, there's like 20% of women who, like they have like a light, we have a layer of like insulation right around that spare tire area that no one loves. And it in when you're nursing, it actually doesn't go away. It's like there as a reserve for your baby. And that was me forever and ever. And I just I was so frustrated, because I was like, oh my god, I'm like, eating really well. I'm moving. I'm like, doing ab exercises and training all around the places that I should be training like, what's up? Why don't want to have a six. Right? And it was because of that. Now, like, I have been strength and conditioning training for six days a week for like, two and a half years. And now I'm just starting to see, like that abdominal definition. So it's been such a lesson in patience for me. And doing the things that like it just celebrating my body all the time and what I'm capable of. And I feel like there's truly nothing more empowering than picking up something having been like, Oh, this is like lighter than it was yesterday. or lighter than it was you know, two weeks ago. Oh, wait, my like, my heavier dumbbells aren't feeling as heavy anymore. Like, let me size up. What a great way to like celebrate yourself and to like, buy yourself new weights. I feel like I love love, love that. And just like we look for bounces in our nutrition, we are looking for like ways to balance our workouts Right? Like we wouldn't do, or I wouldn't recommend doing, like, all cardio all the time. Right? Like that strength training, that resistance training, the thing that's building our muscles and ladies, which we need to protect our bones, as we're getting older. Yes. And like if we want to roll around to like play with our grandkids or run a marathon or just be able to travel the world and walk by foot and explore like those little, you know, little alleyways and all of the things. We have to get ourselves physically fit enough to do that. And the way that we're going to do that is a combination of what we're putting in our body and how we are moving.

Philip Pape 29:39

Hey, this is Philip Pape. And if you feel like you've put in effort to improve your health and fitness but aren't getting results, I invite you to apply for a one on one coaching to make real progress and get the body you desire. We'll work together to figure out what's missing so you can look better, perform better and feel better. Just go to wits & weights.com/coaching to learn about my program and Apply today. Now back to the episode. Ah, dude, you just made such a great picture for everyone of how strength increases your capability and your longevity and your ability to enjoy life and pick up your kids. And like you said, you just feel stronger and more capable and empowered. And you're so right, because I mean, I have, I've learned more about being a coach about the other sex than I ever have in my life from just viewed of when it comes to how empowering strength training can be, really, to the point where you may have once you know, obsessed over or worried a lot about your weight, and now it almost becomes an afterthought, because now you're worried about your lifts, are you worried about you know, your, your, how you feel in your clothes, and all these other things. So, yeah, it's a great message very positive.

Kate Jaramillo 30:50

And you start to like, you start to focus on different parts of your body, versus, like, how it looks, which we all have levels of vanity, okay, let's just use your hair, like we want to look a certain way. However, like when we are training our bodies like that, and we're doing it consistently, and we're feeling really good and confident, it changes what we look at, it changes what we zoom in on when we're standing in front of the mirror naked, right? Like, where we sometimes will zoom in on like, the love handles or wobbly bits, then we start to look at like our calf muscles, and our back and our biceps. And we're just like, Damn, girl, you look good.

Philip Pape 31:26

Now do you get also let me ask for the female perspective. You know, when I get lean, I feel I feel great. And then as I start to put on weight building, you know, you start to get a little softer, because you have to tap the muscle. But you don't necessarily care in the neck. Like it's not a negative thing. You see that as this is contributing toward what's going to get revealed in the next fat loss phase. I don't know if you go through that. Or if it's like, you're never quite enjoying being a little bit extra heavy. You know,

Kate Jaramillo 31:54

I don't know that I ever really enjoy being extra heavier. However, I think my mindset has shifted in. I won't always look like this. I know how to look like this.

Philip Pape 32:04

Right? You can control it. Yes. That's huge.

Kate Jaramillo 32:08

Yeah, like, Yeah, I think like never feeling out of control. Never feeling out of this is actually, as I'm talking about this out loud. It's a really big deal. Like, I don't feel out of control in my body anymore. At all.

Philip Pape 32:21

Wonderful. Yeah. That's a great message. Yeah, so mindset, there's a whole topic we can dive into as well. Yeah. Because the mind is maybe the most powerful tool we have in this whole game of life, right. And we could use it to our advantage, we could create results. In the kitchen, in the gym and life, whatever we're talking about. I guess one of the most valuable lessons that I've learned having you as a coach for my business, are around what holds people back. And it's rarely like it's rarely what they know. Right? The things like consistency, accountability, self love, aspiration, those are the things that hold people back, right? It's all up, here's where I'm going. So how do we unleash that power of our mind? If we haven't already kind of gotten into that? To unleash our results?

Kate Jaramillo 33:11

Yeah, so I know, you know, this, and I love to talk about this. But there's a framework where you can really monitor what, like what's going on in your brain. So it's the acronym is called steer situation, thought, emotion, action result, a situation is always, it just always exists, right? A situation is often something that we can't control, it just is. And so sometimes we have to create neutrality around the situation to not feel like a victim or feel out of control. Okay? And sometimes we're put in situations that are not our fault. Like if somebody if we're driving a car and another car hits us, and we can't, you know, we broke our leg and we can't move for a little while. Okay, like that's an unwanted situation. But there are still things that are within our control, right? So we never can we don't, there's never a time that we have to look at this and say, and think there's nothing I can do. I'm Hope, like, there's, there's nothing I can do. I can't do anything. I'm a victim. Everything is bad, because the emotion there is helplessness. And I actually think that that is one of the lowest emotions that we can actually feel. And especially when it comes to looking at our health and our weight. Sometimes like, we look at our situation and the, you know, I missed a workout where I ate that sleeve of Oreos. That is a situation the Oreos existed and you ate asleep of it. So your thought can either be I suck, I'm a failure. I'm never going to lose weight and then your emotion is again like sadness, frustration, hopelessness, your action might be to eat another sleeve of Oreos, because you're in that effort moment like nothing's going to change and the result is you are further away from your goal than you ever were before. Or the situation is that you ate a sleeve of Oreos. And then your thought could be, that might not have been my best decision is probably going to move me further away from my goals. However, I can't change it, I'm going to do better, I'm going to make a choice to do better. And then your emotion could potentially become curiosity, how can I how can I do better tomorrow? How can I do better in my next meal with my next choice, and then that action that that emotion inspires is like, doing better another choice, a better choice. And the result is that you get one step closer to your goal, right? So I believe that everything is powered by the mind, whether you are whatever choices that you're making to eat, how you choose to move your body, how you what time you choose to go to bed, what you choose to fill your mind with, before you go to bed, what you choose to fill your mind with day to day, right, like, you could be in a situation I know many of my clients have been, when they've been around people who will say to them, you're just not going to lose weight. I mean, after 40, it's just not possible, right? Like, oh, after menopause, you could just forget it, you're gonna smell a french fry and gain 15 pounds, right. And if you choose to believe that, then your actions and your results will create exactly what you're choosing to believe. Your brain will dictate everything else that happens. Or you could hear that and say, that's not true for me, right? Like, nothing's gone wrong here. And this isn't true for me, this is my body, this is how old I am. And this is what's happening with my hormones. And once you you can even create that like neutrality around like, this is going on with my hormones, and I'm going to choose to not make it a problem. So because I'm choosing not to make it a problem, I still feel hopeful. So the actions that I will take is, I'm going to eat my protein, vegetables and fruits, I'm going to move my body and I'm gonna pick up heavy things. And the result that I'm going to be getting is I'm going to be able to pick scoop up my kids, and walk all around Paris, and see everything that I want to see and fill their passport full of stamps, and have the best life that I could ever imagine.

Philip Pape 37:17

Can you You're such a great storyteller. And I love this framework. No, I love it. I've heard you say it several times before. And it's great to get it drilled back in because it's it's very clear. And it allows people to see from one end to the other how this works. You know, I imagine that people that have, let's say failed over and over, through their endeavors get conditioned to where it's harder and harder to pull out of that first step of the situation into the positive thought. And you have to at some point, have that conscious, you know, choice to do that, like you said, and this is where your support structure is important, as you mentioned, or not having the negative people around you that don't support you. And where coaches can help where it really anybody can help. So I love that it's like a stoic philosophy. I love the stoics of you know, control what you can and what you can't. So what you know, yeah, yeah, so the steer model, everybody situation thought, emotion Action Result. Awesome. Awesome. Yeah. Cool. So I know, some of my listeners are nutrition coaches like me, they probably love to hear some of your strategies for being successful as an online coach. I've already learned a ton from you and the team at beyond macro. So I'm kind of digging a little bit deep for these on the client in the business side. So the first one is just how can we balance the need for the individualized plans with standard evidence based guidelines. So not even the Keto and all the other things, but just things that we we know on average, are correct, quote, unquote, correct, like the one gram per pound of protein. But a client comes along that it just for whatever reason, it's not for them?

Kate Jaramillo 38:52

Yeah. So I think like, we always have to just be willing, you've mentioned earlier that we are always like, we're experimenting, we're our own experiments. So I think as nutrition coaches, we want to attract clients who are willing to experiment on themselves. And I feel like that's really important to communicate and our messaging that just like, there's just there's simply no one size fits all approach. Like you and I are talking about protein and how important it is. And I also know that some people with severe kidney issues that are prone to kidney stones and things like that do much better on a plant based diet with much less protein, right? So just it's we as nutrition coaches need to be very open to the possibility that what we believe that we know is true, isn't true for every client, and we have to be willing to be wrong and communicate that to our client as well. Like, experiment together and learn together. One of my mentors, says, I haven't wrapped my brain around this completely yet, right? But she says, I love to fail. I will I have to fail. I don't love to fail, I actually hate to lose a to lose even more than I love to win, I hate to lose. But I see where she's coming from right? She loves to fail, because she loves to learn. So like, if we are working with a client who we know like, like, why are they not wrapping their heads around one gram of protein per body? Why is this not working for them? Right, we have to be willing to ask those four questions and figure out what it is. Are they open to getting a blood panel done? Are Are they are we qualified to read their blood panel? Right? And some of us aren't? I'm not right. Like, I would have their their GP, like read their bloodwork, and then tell me, you know what's going on with them. I've worked with clients who have in conjunction with their GP, I've had somebody that has stage four metastatic breast cancer, right, and like, and she's had it for 25 years. And we've worked together in conjunction with her doctor, right. And a lot of the things that we know haven't worked,

Philip Pape 40:57

don't work. Yeah, and actually just similar to that I know, a hormone specialist, and she's just awesome at hormones. She's like, a coach is awesome hormones. And I'm not worried about competing with her because she's good at that. And I do what I do. We send people to each other. Yeah. You know, do it anyway, keep going,

Kate Jaramillo 41:13

Oh, no, I'm just gonna say like, I have zero ego, or around my scope of practice. And I'm so willing to learn with each client. And I have like, at this point, in my career, I've coached hundreds of people, and not a single one of them has been exactly the same. Not a single

Philip Pape 41:27

one. Yep. Yeah. Ya know, that we learn together is is amazing, because there are some coaches, I think, probably think there's like a sphere of knowledge, you know, and then once you have that knowledge, you just kind of apply it. And, you know, I come right out with clients. And like, look, I don't know this, or here's what I think should work. And then when we try it, and nothing works exactly as I planned, you know, you could take the approach in the steer model of having a negative emotion, you know, a negative thought of, well, maybe I'm just not, you know, following the right information, or what I know is wrong, or, Hey, they just might be an outlier, or there might be something else going on. And this is our opportunity to diagnose and investigate with the other data we have.

Kate Jaramillo 42:10

Yeah. And there's things sometimes that come up that like, it's so difficult for a client to actually be able to remedy it. So I did like toxicity and detox certification, and I help them like, right, right, their certification, and learning about like amalgam fillings and things like that, like, can I just tell you something, it is freaking expensive to get your amalgam fillings, like removed, like, right, like, super expensive. So if we are working with a client who comes up with like, they're like weight loss resistant, because their body is filled with toxins and things like that. And they have amalgam fillings, you're like, hey, you can get this removed, it's gonna cost you like, 10, some grand, right? Like, and it's not something that they can do, that we as coaches have to figure out. Okay, like, what, what else can we do? Like, what are some other words, how else can we support client and removing toxins? Or just eating organic foods? Or, you know, like, what else? Can you help them do? Yeah,

Philip Pape 43:08

exactly. Or maybe even if they're a little bit resistant to change in certain areas, like we talked about the non negotiables, non negotiables before, or maybe they don't have access to certain gym equipment, whatever you write, you have to be kind of savvy enough to work with them and figure out another way that might be not 100% and might be 95%. Optimal or 90%. Optimal. Yeah, exactly.

Kate Jaramillo 43:31

But like, that is so much better than whatever it is that they were doing before.

Philip Pape 43:35

Yes. It's all relative, for sure. Now, here's another one I have for you. What about clients who have disordered eating habits, and I mean, put them in their history, like, you know, a lot of us don't, wouldn't necessarily work with somebody who needs medical attention at the moment. But in the past, which is not uncommon, especially for women, I think, and body image concerns, right? Like, for example, I asked my clients to give me progress photos right at the beginning. And it's a red flag if they're hesitant, because that brings up some potential body image challenges and maybe a different approach we have to take. So maybe they're fixated on the scale. Maybe they can't, they don't like taking photos, or they delegate disorder. What how would you handle that?

Kate Jaramillo 44:15

Yeah. So like he said, I think a lot of women have I know, I have, I mean, like, I feel like so many of us have had some sort of disordered eating like, right if we have points, or even macros, or whatever it's been, right. And so it's those those thoughts of like, failing, or I can only eat so much, oh my gosh, like there's not enough or there's too much. So I think that that's really where that thought work comes in. And sometimes we won't be able to help a client find like the thought that's going to like just make them feel great about everything. And even though they're not losing any weight, really happy about the state of their body and we don't always have to, like reach for happiness and contentment. Sometimes it's just being able to get to The thought that feels that makes them feel okay. Just okay. Right. And so again, circumstance, situation like skill is not moving skills actually even going up. Okay? So your thought used to be, I'm feeling the world is ending, nothing's working, everything's broken. What if just the thought can be, it's working, nothing's gone wrong here, nothing's gone wrong here. This is part of the process. This is just part of me learning more about what's going to work for my body eventually, nothing's gone wrong, careless. And sometimes that's the most empowering thought that we can give someone who is really struggling with negative self image or like a bit of disordered eating. And we as coaches also have to, if we do notice that it's getting to a point where they need a medical intervention to be able to help our client find that help.

Philip Pape 46:02

Okay, that is great advice. Kate. I want to respect your time, maybe just a few more questions here. Yeah. So what's the best way to measure the success of your business or your nutrition coaching program specifically? So you can always be improving?

Kate Jaramillo 46:18

Yeah, well, so I look at this and go what, what is success? Like? What does it mean for each person, as I have grown in my business and evolved as an entrepreneur, I will really look at my success as what's happening, like, how I'm balancing my work and my life. I have four children at different stages, like ages, you know, three, 811, and 15. So their need for me, really varies like, right, my younger ones really need me for like, like feeding them, and just being able to, like, depend on me, for all these lifestyle, my older ones, have a really big need for me emotionally. So being able to be fully present with them, is always going to be a huge one for me, with my clients I look at are like, how are they feeling? Are they are they making money in their businesses? Are they growing with their clients are their clients happy? Like I look at business in general, especially as you're growing as a nutrition coach, there are these four phases, right, and it is truly, they're happening all the time. But we can't move on. Until we've we've done the thing in each phase. And phase one is really attraction. And this is where you start building your audience. And then once your audience is built, you're actually generating leads from that audience and audience building a lead generation can actually be two different things, because you build and then you're generating leads from them. That's always happening, always happening, even when you become a waitlisted. Coach. Then the second, the second phase is your offer, like getting really clear on how you can make an offer, or to help someone and what that will look, in your experience. If you're brand new, starting out, you may not know this, but in your experience, how long, it could take a person who has been in a similar position to get their desired outcome, right, like making those offers to help. And then you know that the third phase is enrolling them and enrolling clients consistently, being able to have a sales conversation that just coaches a client to make a decision, right, because I find that so many people who are looking for to improve their health or to make a change in their health can be resistant to making a decision or any commitment. So just being able to coach them to a yes or no, is such a loving thing to do. And obviously, we want to hopefully coach them to an enrollment. And then the fourth phase is fulfillment, right? And that's where we are just delivering an amazing clients variance where our clients are really happy. So when we're coaching our nutrition coaching clients, I look at how they're moving in what they're doing in those four phases. I care a lot about the fulfillment side, because I want to make sure that their clients are experiencing a transformation, a breakthrough. Coaching is a miracle. And when you can live in a breakthrough, god, oh my god, it's life changing. Right? We

Philip Pape 49:19

do this? Yeah.

Kate Jaramillo 49:19

That's why we do this exactly. Like, what if, what if none of our like, money didn't depend on any of this? Like, what if, like, it was a volunteer role, but if we didn't put any pressure on ourselves, and we just were on a mission, to allow people to receive the miracle of coaching and live in breakthrough? What would that change for us, right? So when we focus on that, and fulfillment, and allow like our clients to experience breakthrough and live in the miracle of coaching, then like that, we are retaining them as clients. We are getting referrals, our businesses are growing. That's what I look for when We're coaching clients and helping them determine their own success. It's not always like dollar related and number of clients related for some it is. But that comes when we are coaching when we are just the best coach for our clients.

Philip Pape 50:16

Sure, that's that's a lagging indicator. Yeah, I agree. I, one thing that turns me off the most about this industry is the business coaches who are just selling their programs based on how many K dollars you're gonna make per month, you know, it's just turns me off, just like, I think a client nutrition coaching client is turned off often by the sleazy tactics of many coaches. Hopefully, there's a lot more great coaches out there that we're all trying to develop, and you are trying to develop a couple of things. You mentioned, the coaching a client to make the decision, you're effectively how you're effectively testing your skills as a coach in that process before they even become your client. Right. So it should have that natural fit, and then delivering the amazing experience. You're right, that ultimately is what it's all about, because that will you know, leads to this virtuous cycle. So amazing people listening to this, who are thinking of getting into it, I think, you know, Kate's, and experts been doing this for years and is just incredible. And you have a great approach to it as well. So all right, so the penultimate question I like to ask all guests is what one question Did you wish I had asked and what is your answer?

Kate Jaramillo 51:22

Okay, what what I spent my day to day doing eating and living right. So cuz I love this. I love a bit of a behind the scenes peek at like, how nutrition coaches are actually like, what we're doing, like what we do, how we spend our day to day. So I typically wake up at about 5am I work out downstairs at home, I haven't. Like I've not gone to the gym since I stopped working in them. As is an instructor. So I love being able to walk downstairs, I get a workout in then I'll feed my animals. And then I work on feeding the kids. So I I cook for my kids every single meal, right? Like they always have a hot breakfast. They always have lunch, they always have dinner, right? So I'm preparing meals for everyone. Then like, I'll make my coffee and I have a protein shake. I'm sitting I'm working on my computer. I'm having a lot of zoom calls and discussions. I always I am really blessed that I work from home because I can make a fresh lunch every day. And listen like Arline, like super simple. I wrote three cookbooks. So I do love recipes. But I don't follow them anymore. I just don't like I just find that like we eat a lot of I like look for different deals and different proteins each week and went great. That sounds good. I know how to make that up. Yeah, let me make that with like a different vegetable. And like we usually have tons of different fruits to eat. And then same thing at dinnertime, my husband actually doesn't eat dinner, because he has like an issue with his esophagus that it doesn't like the flap isn't like really close. So we used to get really bad acid reflux cannot eat past a certain time. So he's like a grazer in the evening. So I really have to make sure that there's fresh fruit available for him. Otherwise, he will go straight for like, plantain chips or something does not need to be like eating a bunch of

Philip Pape 53:19

by the way, we should talk about that throat issue because I have something similar and maybe after we're done recording chat about that.

Kate Jaramillo 53:26

Yeah. Oh my gosh, it's so interesting. Yeah. And then so make the kids dinner. Sometimes I'm coaching cheerleading, and then we all just like hang out and I'm helping them with a bit unsuccessfully like with homework. Oh, yeah. And then my kids are in bed at like eight and I'm in bed by like nine and that's my day and I'm so happy with this lifestyle. I remember being so much younger and like it was a Friday night it was like midnight I'm like this is when we go out because this is when like nobody goes up before midnight. Yeah. Now like oh my gosh, like like when I can be home from picking up all the kids activities and stuff and like in my pajamas by five is like the best

Philip Pape 54:13

party days are over it's okay you know life life has a different priorities now. So it's crazy. It's really a balanced schedule you have and handling the four kids of all different ages because I have two girls that are really close in age so we're kind of going along with their phase of life for you here just rotating through babies okay, what animals do you have by the way?

Kate Jaramillo 54:37

So we have two dogs a cat and like a bunch of fish we used to have this really cool frog that would like some all around the fish tank I think it was actually eating some of the fish because it would really disappear and he like had this very tragic ending I think he like jumped out of the tank macadam but like Yeah, so we have Yeah, like the dogs and the cats and like you're in Miami boy. So you know like I have Random outside pets that was paced back and forth early like they like sit and stare at me. I'm like,

Philip Pape 55:10

oh, no, I hear you. Now we have bears and raccoons and stuff up here.

Kate Jaramillo 55:14

Listen, I would rather have the fuzzy things. Yeah, right.

Philip Pape 55:17

Yeah. As long as they don't eat all your chickens like they did with ours last spring. Yeah. Anyway, all right. So Kate, it's been a lot of fun. I could talk to you forever. But I want to ask you the last question, Where can listeners find out about you and your work?

Kate Jaramillo 55:31

So the best way to like find follow and connect with me is in the online nutrition coach community. I'm in there all the time. I'm popping in like usually daily, just chatting with people. And like, if you're not a nutrition coach, and you just like, feel like you want to chat with me. You can find me on my personal Facebook page. Like I literally do respond to all messages. And it's just keep they had a meal. And how am I gonna still like Jeremy Hello. It's like Smith in Colombia. There you

Philip Pape 55:59

go knows people will find you no worries. And, you know, I'm sure I talk about you a lot with folks, especially my fellow coaches. But it's been a pleasure game. Really, it has been, we could definitely do it again with a million other topics. So thank you again for

Philip Pape 56:14

coming on.

Kate Jaramillo 56:15

Awesome. Thank you.

Philip Pape 56:18

Thanks for listening to the show. Before you go, I have a quick favor to ask. If you enjoy the podcast, let me know by leaving a five star review in Apple podcasts and telling others about the show. Thanks again for joining me Philip Pape in this episode of Wits & Weights. I'll see you next time and stay strong.

Philip Pape 3/21/23 Philip Pape 3/21/23

Ep 54: What You REALLY Need to Transform Your Body and Succeed in Life with Kevin Palmieri

What is the meaning of self-improvement and how it applies to health and fitness, and what do you need to achieve your goals? We explore whether struggle is necessary for progress and success, and what role confidence plays in our fitness journey. How do you find your purpose? What is the importance of self-love, emotion, and vulnerability in self-improvement? We also dive into the significance of emotional intelligence and self-awareness in self-improvement and whether fear can be a positive tool.

My guest today is Kevin Palmieri, the founder and co-host of the Next Level University podcast and Podcast Growth University.

Early in his life, Kevin found “success”, but after a brush with suicide he realized he wasn’t living a life he truly wanted. He became passionate about self-improvement and decided to make it his purpose in life to impact as many people as possible by becoming a role model podcaster and speaker.

His podcast is now one of the top 100 with over 1000 episodes and listened in over 125 countries, and he’s taken his life to the next level and achieved both personal and professional success.

You’ll learn all about:

Kevin’s from early success to rock bottom to his “no-BS approach to holistic self-improvement”
Defining self-improvement and its application to health and fitness
The importance of consistency in self-improvement
Is struggle necessary for progress and success?
What is confidence and how can someone become more confident in their fitness journey?
How to find your purpose (your “why”)
The role of self-love, emotion, and vulnerability in self-improvement
The importance of emotional intelligence and self-awareness in self-improvement
Kevin’s biggest

Episode resources:

Find the Next Level University podcast, coaching, speaking, and group coaching at Kevin's website - nextleveluniverse.com
Next Level University on YouTube here
Free course - Next Level 5 to Thrive
Find Kevin on Instagram - @neverquitkid
Watch the episode on video here

👉 If you want to learn more about lifting and nutrition, reach out to Philip:

IG: https://www.instagram.com/witsandweights/
Email: philip@witsandweights.com

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Transcript

Philip Pape 00:08

Welcome to the Wits & Weights podcast, where we discuss getting strong and healthy with strength training and sustainable nutrition. I'm your host, Philip Pape. And in each episode, we examine strategies to help you achieve physical self mastery through a healthy skepticism of the fitness industry, and a commitment to consistent nutrition and training for sustainable results.

Philip Pape 00:31

Welcome to another episode of Wits & Weights. My guest today Kevin Palmieri is the founder and co host of the next level University podcast, make sure to subscribe. Early in his life, Kevin found, quote unquote, success. But after a brush was suicide, he realized he wasn't living a life he truly wanted. He became passionate about self improvement, and decided to make it his purpose in life to impact as many people as possible by becoming a role model podcaster and speaker, his podcast is now one of the top 100 With get this over 1100 episodes and counting, listened to in over 125 countries. And He's taken his life to the next level and achieved both personal and professional success. And that's why we have him on the show today. Kevin, thank you for coming on. I appreciate you having me. Thank you for the wonderful introduction, my goal is always to at least meet that expectation. So that'll be my goal today. And likewise, and I want to meet your level of energy. So let's just jump right and how you how you got here today. Tell us about your journey from early success to rock bottom to what you now call your no BS approach to holistic self improvement. I always start at the very beginning, because I think context is important. And oftentimes the message is only as important as the understanding of the messenger. So I was raised in a single parent household, I was raised by my mom and my grandmother. And I didn't know my dad, and I didn't meet my dad until I was 27. And I think in many ways that transformed me and molded me into who I am today. But it definitely altered my childhood in the way I showed up as a child. I know this, Phil, I don't know much. But I do know that when I was young, I didn't want to do what everybody else wanted to do. So I remember even in grade school, knowing that I didn't want to go to college, I didn't want to do what everybody else was going to do. For some reason, I have always been trying to take a different path. So my childhood was fairly normal. I used to ride my bike around with my friends, I played baseball, we'd go watch the little league games, under the lights it was it was fairly normal. But after high school, that's when things started to get a little bit different because all my friends went away to college. But I stayed back in the town that I was raised in and I was pumping gas at the local gas station. And I did that for a few years, I ended up being a personal trainer for a time, I drove a truck and a forklift. I worked in construction, I joined the Volunteer Fire Academy, I did many, many, many different things, never had any clue what I wanted to do. So I eventually got this unique opportunity in an industry called weatherization. All that means is we go into buildings, and we make them more energy efficient. So just imagine me and your school, your teacher, I come in, and we're working on the windows, the doors, the attic, above the ceiling, stuff like that. Beautiful part of that is since I was working on state owned buildings, I was getting paid anywhere from 60 to $120 an hour, which for me, no college degree, I have made it this is it, I found my thing. I'm gonna do this forever. So if you were to look at me when I was 25, you would see a young man who had just won a bodybuilding show. So I was quite literally in the best shape of my life. My girlfriend was a model, I had a sports car, I had a high paying job, new apartment, all the trappings of success. But I was very unfulfilled. I was very insecure. I was not passionate about much. I didn't understand purpose. I just wasn't excited for life. That's that's in a nutshell. One day, my girlfriend came to me. And she was excited for life. And she knew her purpose. And she knew her mission. And she told me she wanted to move across the country from New Hampshire to California and chase her dreams. And in my scarcity and insecurity. I gave her every reason in the world why she shouldn't do it. And you can imagine how that conversation went. She ended up leaving me as she should have. And she chased her dreams and she moved across the country, which is truly truly wonderful for her. But I remember, I had to look in the mirror and say what is going on here? I just, I don't know. I feel like I just lost everything. I feel like the cloak of perception has been removed. And now I get to figure all this out. I started dipping my toe into self improvement but for some reason, and I'm sure we'll dig into it. But for some reason I said you know what, I gotta I gotta go make more money that's going to fix this is self improvement things great, but I need more money, more money, less problems. That's what I need. That's what I'm going to do more money, more money, less problems. So that next year, I said I'm going to make

Kevin Palmieri 05:00

Thanks, I'm gonna make $100,000 This year, I don't care what it takes, I'm going to do it. So I got a promotion at my company and I became a foreman, we got more contracts that year than we ever had. And most of them were on the road. So we worked a lot in New Jersey, which was like six hours from where I lived. So if you fast forward to the end of that year, I had been on the road for 10 months out of the 12 months, and every single week, working in a different state, sleeping in a different hotel, working out at a different gym, I was very consistent with my fitness back, even with the travel, which was great. But I was just burning the candle at both ends. But it didn't matter because I was making money. So we get to the end of the year, I have my final pay stub in hand, I opened it up, I made $100,000 at 26 with no college degree, awesome for all of five minutes. And then I have that moment of oh no, that didn't fix anything. The bank account looks good, that's awesome. There's definitely some financial certainty there, which I value, that's awesome. But all of the internal voids I had none of them went away. And honestly, some of them actually got worse, because I assumed that would fix all my problems. I realized in that moment that for most of my life, I lived unconsciously, the opposite of unconscious is hyper conscious. So I started a podcast called The Hyper conscious podcast. And I quite literally fell in love with podcasting. As I was falling out of love with my job, I reached the pinnacle, right, I made it to the top of the mountain, I'm not willing to climb another mountain here, I don't want to do this anymore. So I start calling out of my my place of work, I start showing up late, leaving the job site early. And I just want to do this podcasting thing, I've got the bug. And eventually it got to the point where I would have to be in New Jersey, which was six hours from where I lived 7am, Monday morning to start a job, I would sleep in my bed in Massachusetts from 9pm. Until midnight, I would get up drive six hours to the job site, I'd work an eight hour day on three hours of sleep. And then I would go to the gym after and it was just like, I don't care, I need to do this. I'm so home saying I can't be away any more than I have to be. And eventually it just got to the point where I just felt just past go stuck, trapped. I woke up in a hotel room in New Jersey at 550. In the morning, my alarm clock went off, I sat up, I slid to the edge of the bed, lacing up my work boots. And that morning, it was like there was 10 televisions on in my head at the same time. And every single one was on a different station. One is saying you're stuck here forever. I know you want to leave, but you will never get an opportunity as good as this one. If you do leave, what are your friends gonna think you make more money than any of your friends. If you do leave, what's your family going to think your family looks up to you and they're proud of you. You make more money than anybody in your family? And if you do leave, do you really think this podcast thing is going to be the train, we ride off into the sunset? And no, I did not think that was going to happen. And in that moment, I felt that if I was to take my life, I would take my problems with me. And that was what I was sitting with. I was sitting in this hotel room having that thought of, I don't think I want to do this anymore. And not just the job. I don't do any of this. Luckily, I have a very high quality circle. And great people around me I'm very, very blessed to have the people that I do. And I reached out to one of them who was just my friend at the time. He was now my business partner and the CEO of our company. And I explained what was going on. And I said hey, I'm having these feelings. I'm having these thoughts. I'm having these emotions. I don't know what to do, man, what do I do? And he said, Kev over the last couple of years, your awareness has changed a ton. Your habits have changed a ton. So much has changed about you but your environments have remained the same. I think it's time for you to change your environment. So I left that job three or four months later. And then I began the journey of being a very broke entrepreneur trying to figure out business and podcasting and speaking and coaching and all that. And I think that was probably, I think five years ago now. And here we are. Well. Okay.

Philip Pape 08:51

So yeah, so that was that was five years ago. Wow. So you know that this, this, this is a health and fitness podcast. But a lot of what you touched on are principles applicable to anything, right? You touched on self improvement. But the last thing you ended with with your personal story was changing your environment. You said, you know, everything else has been going. I don't wanna say well, right, because you obviously ended up in a very heavy, dark place. But I guess you knew you could make that kind of change and it took someone else, someone in your support structure. In fact, the person you weren't necessarily being to the girl who left you right at the time. You think of it that way to kind of snap you out of it and make you realize you have control the situation just took that level of I guess, support and accountability. I mean, maybe expand on that piece. I have a bunch of questions prepared, but I always go off on tangents. Expand on that piece about the support structure, both both sides of it both the importance of surrounding ourselves with that and the importance of us being that for other people. Yeah, it's I always say that. Imagine if I reached out to somebody who said Kev, nobody likes their job. Of course you're gonna not like your job.

Kevin Palmieri 10:00

I mean, that's par for the course, nobody really likes it. Give it the weekend, I'm sure Monday things will feel better. Like imagine if that's the advice I got, I don't know what would have happened, right. So I think with anything, and I know whether it's fitness, whether it's a dream, whether it's relationship, whether it's a business, whether it's posting on social media, whether you know it or not, the people around you are either accelerating your growth or slowing your growth down, they are either creating new opportunities for you, or they are holding you back from opportunities. And like I did with my girlfriend, I, my ex girlfriend, I gave her every reason in the world not to succeed. And she said, You know what, I will choose success over you. And she ended up going and she's doing her thing. I've been the anchor, and I've been the engine. So I very much understand and empathize with both ends. I think this is the important understanding. People do not give you advice based on your level of capabilities, they give you advice based on their level of capabilities, their limiting beliefs, their fears, their you know, whatever they're afraid to be judged by. And a lot of us take those and run and they assume it's our story, when in reality, it just isn't. So if you're the person, somebody reaches out to you, you got to pour into them. You got to, you have to want what's the best for somebody, regardless of yourself. But you also have to understand that when you're fielding advice from others, you might not be getting that you might be getting the scarce Don't leave me behind advice. Again, I've given that. So I understand very much. It's very important that you sit with the advice you're you're getting, because not not everybody is capable of pouring into your cup at the rate and at the level that you wish they were. And not everybody is capable, or as capable as you are. And that comes through time. And that comes through practice. Yeah. And that also brings to mind the I think you mentioned scarcity there. The abundance mentality, right? Through a growth mindset, the idea that it's not as the world's not a zero sum game, is it there's enough to go around. And in fact, if you surround yourself with people that are more skilled, more experienced, have been around more been through the struggles and kind of let them pour into that vessel you just mentioned, as opposed to saying, you know, I have mine, and I'm gonna keep it and I can't, you know, I can't surround myself with people better than me I need to be. It sounds like you're kind of tying into that same concept. Yeah, I think it's, it's so important to understand that just because somebody wins doesn't mean you can't, right. If I lift Philip and Philip wins, it doesn't mean I can't win. Right? And also, if you do win, I'll be more fulfilled if I helped you. But that's another thing, too, is like, how do you define success? And that's, that's, that's a deeper conversation. But yeah, yeah. So let's get into that a little bit, maybe in the context of physical self mastery, right, and self improvement, which are in your real wheelhouse. So you have this success early in life, maybe it wasn't the right kind of success. So and you alluded to self improvement, what exactly is that? Like? We maybe get philosophical here, but what is self improvement? And how does it then apply to health and fitness? Yeah, self improvement at the end of the day is you pouring into becoming a more evolved more, or with more potential human being, I think that's it. At the end of the day, it's investing in self. If you're, there's a show with Tim Allen and Jonathan Taylor Thomas, I think called Home Improvement, Home Improvement, what is Home Improvement, it's when you improve the value of your home. Self improvement is the same thing when you improve the value and quality and capability of self. Here's the interesting thing. When you pour into yourself, and you become more competent, and you raise your personal development setpoint, you also raise other things like your ability to practice self discipline, like your ability to become a more consistent human being. Your ability to not run from judgment is much your ability to do the hard but necessary things that you know, you will be grateful that you did in the future. And honestly, that's where the health fitness, whether it's the gym, or whatever it is you're doing. That's where that comes in. It's not easy, right? It's not it's not, it's not easy to get in better shape. It's not easy to be healthier, necessarily. And just because it's not easy does not mean it's not possible. But it's very hard to level up one area of your life if you haven't leveled up yourself first. So there's a lot of people out there that want to make a million dollars, but they don't have that million dollar mindset yet. Totally, that's fine. There's a lot of people who want to have a six pack of the body, but they don't have a six pack of the mind. And when you elevate yourself improvement, you elevate your competency. And the more competent you are, the higher likelihood you will succeed at different ventures. So when it comes to self improvement, you're just pouring into yourself, and that transfers over to you becoming more confident. And when you become more confident you try new things. It helps you with your self esteem your self worth, and then you'll double down and triple down on the stuff that makes you feel good. Oftentimes the stuff that the stuff that makes you feel good for the day doesn't feel good in the moment. And I think understand

Kevin Palmieri 15:00

Earning self improvement and studying self improvement that also helps you understand that there is no short term, anything really a value in the long run.

Philip Pape 15:07

Yeah, this reminds me a conversation I had with somebody recently about, you know, how we overcomplicate things. And sometimes we strip it down to the essence and focus on building some foundation, whatever it might be, it might be strength, for example, you build a foundation of strength, you find that you can run faster now, and you can go up the stairs more easily. And you can, you know, have more energy half the day, and it kind of cascades on itself. And what you're saying, is that concept of, you know, building pillars, I guess, in your life that spiraled themselves exponentially. And consistency, you touched on consistency, right? So I'm always hammering that message home. It's very important as a nutrition coach myself that clients embrace that kind of philosophy with small changes in Hey, behavior, and the concept of living as if you're your future self right? Self improvement, you know, thinking of the six pack having a six pack mind or the the other thing you mentioned, and falling in love with the process, right, not just the end goal. So what are what are some of your thoughts about consistency, specifically, why it's important, how we get it, and so on?

Kevin Palmieri 16:13

Yeah, I so we did a 10 pound in 10 week challenge recently, my business partner and I, because we were like, honestly, we've been we've been bulking for a bit here, we should probably lock it in and figure it out. So we said, What's the best way to do this? Accountability? We will say it on the podcast. And we'll do if it's if it gets said on the podcast, we'll do it. The interesting thing and the valuable thing and the best story for consistency is the first two days I gained weight and gain weight. When I started dieting. Imagine if I said, Nope, something's broken metabolisms off. This isn't for me, it's not possible. And then I stopped. The beautiful thing about consistency is it tells the truth eventually. And it's it takes the emotion out of things, right. When you do something consistently, when you do something on repeat, when you do it repeatedly, you start to see the different intricacies. And you start to see oh, okay, that's what happens when I do it this way. Let me try a little bit different the next day. Oh, that's what happens when I do it this way. So the importance of consistency is honestly, at the end of the day, if you can't do something for a month, you're most likely not going to get the results that you want. Right, and podcasting and business and whatever it may be. So I think a lot of us know that now. And we have that understanding, how can you be more consistent, number one, break things into sustainable bite sized things to start, one of the best habits you can have is the one that you actually do. One of the best diets there is for you is the one that's sustainable for you. Right, there's a reason we don't sign up to a gym, that's an hour away, it's not sustainable to get to, we'll sign up to one that's five minutes away, that's 24 hours, boom, we can do that consistently. So create some sort of Bite Size habit to start simple, sustainable, find some sort of accountability. So I think there was a study recently. So this is a fine line. But I think there was a study recently that said, people who said something with public accountability that they planned on accomplishing, they actually were less successful because they got the dopamine hit, right. So maybe that's not it for you. For me, that works really well. If I say on the podcast, I have to do it. It's just, that's just what it is at this point. But maybe for you, it's having a peak performance partner, maybe for you, it's having a coach, maybe for you, it's having some sort of agreement, I have $100 bill on my desk at all times. And it's what I call my $100 habit. I told my wife, I said, here's $100 bill, if I don't go to the gym everyday, this week, I want you to rip this up in front of me. I am a money driven human being I operate well, when there's skin in the game that helps me so we have to figure out what is the level of necessity that you're willing to take on? It should be an uncomfortable level of necessity. Because if it's not an uncomfortable level of necessity, you're not going to do what's uncomfortable to get your goals. You're not sure right? There's no point. So I would say number one, let's focus on what's sustainable for you. What's sustainable, and what's ideal are two different things, especially in the beginning, right, especially the beginning. Number two, what kind of necessity Can we can we bring in? What kind of accountability can we bring in? And then just speaking to the $100 habit, what kind of commitment device can we bring in for you? And again, that's just more necessity.

Philip Pape 19:25

Okay, yep. Just taking notes. Now, this is good. You're speaking my language. Totally speaking. We talking about this stuff all the time. And I want to unpack some of the things you mentioned. So specifically on your weight challenge. That's pretty cool. Right? So a pound a week is totally reasonable. And I like the fact that you use that specific example, because I get questions all the time about what why do I like my clients to weigh themselves every day? It's a kind of a controversial thing for some people to say, Oh, you shouldn't weigh yourself every day. And they list all sorts of excuses, right? And they say, You know what, because weight changes so much. It's meaningless in the short term. And if you have a data point every day now after three weeks So that was just kind of the sweet spot, you actually have information on what's going on. Without it. There's a big gap there. Right? So it's kind of thinking that logically, I love the way you put that. And then the accountability. I heard that same study a couple years back. But I think there's a twist on it that you just suggested. And that is, it's not just the announcing of the goal, right? It's continuing to put it out there after you announce it, which I think is probably what gets you that ultimate accountability, kind of like a challenge, right? We do challenges and we say, Okay, everybody posted in your Facebook group every day, people are watching and people are there to help you. Yeah. Yeah. So so that's good stuff. So you talked about things not being easy, right? Is that the same as struggling? Right? There's a lot of people that have these weak crucibles in their life. And there's this thought that it's those people that have all the success that they had to overcome. And you even told us about one yourself is, do people have to struggle? Or can someone can see cause succeed. Without that,

Kevin Palmieri 20:58

I always my thought on this is you will struggle in direct correlation to the size of your goals. So for me to lose five pounds will be less of a struggle than for me to lose 25 pounds. And that's just the law of the universe. And that's just a law of nature. And that's, that's the way it'll work for most of us. What I think happens is we've fallen into the trap of what gets clicked on what gets purchased. What gets influenced is usually the stuff that's quote unquote, the easiest, it's like, this is the secret that you need to get the result you want. There aren't that many everything you've heard before. It's wrong. It's you're 45 years old, you've been learning wrong for 45 years. It's like no, no, necessarily. Maybe you just haven't done the right thing yet. So I think that for most of us, we want to believe that there is an easier way to do it. And we're holding out for that easier way to come. Like, I'll do it when this comes out. Or when this comes out, when in reality, the results you want are hidden in the work you don't. And so from my perspective, no, I don't think you can really succeed without struggle. Because I think, whatever your version of successes, and it's completely personal, and I want to make sure I put that out there will most likely require conflict. And by definition, conflict is challenging. So I do not think you can now here's the, I guess the detour that you'll hear a lot of people say, well, it's only struggling if you choose, it's only a struggle, if you decide it's a struggle. Sure, I understand that as somebody who has a very strong mindset. And I like to think I'm pretty philosophical at this point in my life, many of us are not going to get to that point where we can choose whether or not we want to struggle, or when you know, if we don't want to suffer, I think it's disempowering to assume that you don't have to, I just I really do. And I think there's a couple of different kinds of people. There's the person who takes they take pride and how easy it was. And there's somebody who takes pride and how hard it was, you got to figure out who you are and who you want to be. And then kind of adjust there and then honestly figure out who to take advice from based on that as well.

Philip Pape 23:03

Now taking pride in how easy something was, would that apply to someone who is really good at making systems that and shortcuts and hacks and automating things, you know, somebody who makes the thing easy by by spending the hard effort first, you know what I mean? Like, where, where's because I'm kind of that guy I want. I want the long term process to be smooth and easy and frictionless. But I take the time upfront to make it that way. Yeah,

Kevin Palmieri 23:25

I agree. We did an episode recently. There is no such thing as smart work until you do hard work first, because without hard work, you can't figure out what's smart or not. Right. So I think that's great, I think, but the fact that you admit Well, in the beginning, it kind of sucks. And then it gets smoother and smoother and smoother as we go. I think that's, I think that's great. I do think a lot of people are trying to avoid that first part. And that's what we get sold, right? It's like, yeah, of course, how many of the same diet supplements, ab crunch board twists, things. You know, it's the same stuff over and over, that takes advantage of people's lack of awareness.

Philip Pape 23:59

Yeah. Hey, this is Philip Pape. And if you feel like you've put in effort to improve your health and fitness, but aren't getting results, I invite you to apply for one on one coaching to make real progress and get the body you desire. We'll work together to figure out what's missing so you can look better, perform better and feel better. Just go to wits & weights.com/coaching, to learn about my program and apply today. Now back to the episode. Yeah, I was thinking about I have a client in her 60s And you know, she she goes to the gym and does her squats, you know, once a week or twice a week. And for those 15 Hard minutes, she's able to go to her patriots season tickets games every week and no longer struggle going up the stairs. And you're like that's the kind of trade off I think we're looking for is that that little bit of hard investment for the real results. Okay, so a lot of my clients, you know, come in and they want to lose weight. They want to improve their body composition. In reality, there's something deeper usually there's something deeper like self confidence and I know that some Can you talk about a lot you've mentioned already. And I know personally from my personal journeys, both fitness and also public speaking. I mean, I would never have done a podcast even five years ago, if I hadn't spent time on the skill of speaking. That that was important to me. So given that you help people improve, Kevin, what is confidence, right? And how can someone become more confident?

Kevin Palmieri 25:21

Confidence is your ability to show up and figure it out? Confidence is your ability to believe that you are capable of achieving some level of result in your life and then and then showing up for it. I think, honestly, it is one of the biggest issues on the planet lack of belief. I really do. And again, I resonate with it, because I still have it. I might seem like a very confident human being, I am confident in this microphone, because I've done this so many times. But it doesn't mean I'm confident in life, it doesn't mean that I have level 10 belief in everything I do. I still have limiting beliefs, I still have doubts, I still have, at times a fixed mindset. So that's been a lifelong journey. For me, I think the best way to build it is to figure out, okay, on a scale of one to 10, what is something that scares me at a level five, because a level 10 Fear is something that will stop you from even starting a level one fear is something that's in your comfort zone. So if you think about it from a comfort zone, the next zone out is the learning zone. And then you have the anxiety zone, most of our fears are in the anxiety zone. Most of our comforts are in the comfort zone, the sweet spot and the potential for growth is in the Learning Zone. So I had a young lady reach out to me, she said I want to be a speaker. Cool. Love that. Are you doing any speaking? And she said No, not yet. Alright, cool. On a scale of and I said let's get you speaking on a scale of one to 10 how outside of your comfort zone is it for you to do a Facebook Live? And she said 12 out of 10? That ain't it? Alright, let's not do that. On a scale of one to 10. How outside of your comfort zone? Is it for you to record a video and show nobody? She said that? It's like a zero. Okay, that's not it on a scale of one to 10 how outside of your comfort zone is it for you to record a video and send it to me only? And I won't show anybody I promise. And she said probably a five or six cool do that. Because you shouldn't be speaking on stage in front of 1000s of people. That's not where we start. You don't start? You know, your baseball career by getting up in front of a 95 mile an hour fastball. Of course, you're gonna be afraid. Right? That's That's natural. Yeah. What is the next available opportunity for growth? It doesn't have to be the biggest it doesn't have to be the most audacious. The one of the things you hear often, Philip, and I'm sure you hear this is what's your big, hairy, audacious goal, like what is the goal that's going to change the world for you? If you're out there, and that doesn't resonate with you, it's because you don't believe you're capable of that yet. Totally fine. It's totally fine. What is the next available opportunity for growth, that's where I would start something simple. When you're walking down the aisle at the supermarket, try to hold eye contact, very uncomfortable, but it takes confidence, it raises your confidence, say I am intentionally going to have a conversation with a person at the checkout counter. And I'm going to hold my own and I'm going to be brave. And I'm just going to say Hey, how was How was your day, how's your weekend, you have any plans for this weekend, just getting outside of your comfort zone little by little by little by little is the way to become more confident, you do not have to do it all at once you do not have to reach the peak of the mountain today. The ultimate goal is to get to the next summit so you can see what's possible for you at the next level the next level. So I think that's kind of a theme for us today is sustainability, sustainability and starting small.

Philip Pape 28:36

Yeah, that that spectrum you just listed, I'm gonna I'm gonna steal that with my clients, because I haven't exactly heard it put that way. I love that the comfort learning and anxiety phases of the spectrum, because it can apply to you know, let's say you just don't get enough sleep, right? You get four or five hours of sleep. I'm not gonna say go start getting eight hours of sleep. I'm gonna say what can you do? Right? That's easy. I asked what can you do? What can we but even the way you put it to get a little more specific of finding the average, you know, kind of between the spectrum is is a great is great advice. It also reminds me the stress recovery adaptation cycle of fitness, right? The idea that you push your self just enough, you push your muscles just enough so they recover and adapt. You don't go so far that you're just you're just trash and can't even go to the gym for three days. And you don't go so low that you didn't feel like you got any work and you lift the same weights for three years. Yeah, great. So related to this, I guess. I think it's important for people trying to do what you do to ask them why they're doing this. Right. Like what what is the deeper purpose? What is the big why in their life? How does someone find that so then they know what to go attack and bring in, in applying this confidence scale?

Kevin Palmieri 29:47

Yeah, it's a challenge. It's anytime we're talking about purpose. Why mission? Passion. I think a lot of us and I, I definitely did this. A lot of us say okay, I'm going to figure this I'm gonna go searching for it like, what is my why? When I think for many of us are why is already happened? Right? So even if we just say like purpose from it, what's the purpose of doing this? A lot of us go out and say, Alright, let me search. Let me try this, let me try this, let me try this, I think that's important because trying things gives you a new awareness. But for many of us, I think our purpose or why our passion is buried in our past, and it usually comes from a place of pain. To your point, why does that client want to get in better shape, it's not necessarily so that client can look better on the beach, it's not necessarily so that client can run a marathon, it's so that client can go watch your favorite sports team, from the stands at maybe the season tickets that she's had for 25 years. That's a deep, deep, deep why? Or maybe because this person has a fear that they're not going to be around for their grandchildren in 25 years, if they don't turn their life around. Maybe that's why a lot of it comes from pain. Unfortunately, many of our wives and our purposes and our passions come from our deepest pain, because we don't want to see that deep pain happen again, we don't want to see it happen to somebody else. And we want to be or at least feel like we're in control of it. So I would say take a look into your past. And what are the things that scare you the most? What are the things that have hurt you the most in the past? What are the things that you know, at a very, very deep level that you think the world should be focused on more? That's a great question when it comes to purpose or passion or why. But at the deepest level, I think it's you sitting with your thoughts and saying, Alright, let me be real with myself. Is it because I want to be more physically capable? Or is it because I want to look better in a bikini or my board shorts? The answer is personal. But the more specific you are with why the more real you are with yourself. I love giving back. And I love adding value. And I love our community and I love podcasting. But I also am more driven by money than my business partner. I just am for a long time. I didn't want to admit that. Because I thought it made me look bad or I'd look selfish. That's just the truth. I am a more money driven human being than him. Let me use that to run this better. When you're aware of something you admit it, you're probably more likely to get the results anyway because at least you're doing it for the right reasons. And you know, the right reasons.

Philip Pape 32:18

Yeah, that's, that's a really great point to end that answer on. Because there's there's no shame people have to understand there's no shame in your personal reason for doing something which can change, it can change daily, weekly, monthly. It can be there can be multiple reasons and you know, use that use that as fuel to drive you don't even have to admit it to people, if you don't want just use it. So I think that's that's awesome. Looking to your past. It's so true people. Again, people that come to me, it's there's always something that they dealt with in the past that didn't work, right. It's not like they come to me because everything's hunky dory. And now they just have this magical goal out in the future. So that's a really good one. Where does, where does the vulnerability play into this word is I don't know self love, you talked about limiting beliefs, but like, accepting yourself or emotion vulnerability play into self improvement.

Kevin Palmieri 33:08

Vulnerability is living in the truth. At the at the end of the day, right? When we think of vulnerability, it's admitting what's real, regardless of the fear around it. And there's a million reasons, if you want your relationships to improve, you've got to lean into vulnerability. I mean, you have to because you're living the truth, if you want necessity to increase, you have to be vulnerable with yourself. My business partner has this, this habit that he does, it's called the naked truth. He literally stands in front of his full size mirror with no clothes on to assess where he's at physically. And he says, yep, not as good as I thought, or, wow, it's better than I thought. It's that it's literally him being vulnerable with himself and saying, Alright, let me get the truth here. Let me get the truth, let me get what's real. So I can make changes according accordingly. Any relationship, I believe the level of the relationship is based on the level of vulnerability. So that's one point, why vulnerability is so important. But if you're going to facilitate change within yourself, you have to be first vulnerable enough to admit where you are. If you don't know where you are, you're not going to understand or be able to contextualize how to get where you're going. And it just is the truth. Vulnerability is the truth.

Philip Pape 34:22

And how do you do that without, without going into some despair, or, you know, despair, depression or negative thinking about it?

Kevin Palmieri 34:30

If that's the hard part, because there's a lot of different ways to do it. But I can't, I can't really say you won't feel despair, or you won't feel negativity. Because what's going to happen? One of two things is going to happen. So let's just say you're vulnerable. And you look back to a Facebook post from two years ago, almost exclusively, one of two things is going to happen. You're going to say, wow, I've come a long way. Wow, I haven't made any progress at all, and I look I don't look as good as I had hoped. Your trauma response to either of those is going to be personal and up to you. But you have to understand that at least the awareness is a potential opportunity. I think that's, that's all I can really speak to on that Philip is, yes, awareness is painful. Yes, you can definitely get too much too much awareness at once. But you also can live your life with not nearly enough awareness, which won't help you make change. So hopefully, you can at least take the awareness and say, Alright, yeah, this sucks. And this is uncomfortable. Wow, that's a lot of truth at once. All right, well, at least now I can operate accordingly. And now I know where I actually am. I'm done kidding myself. I know what's real. Logically, I understand where I'm actually at the emotional side of things has gone away a little bit.

Philip Pape 35:45

Yeah. And that sounds like one of the first steps. You know, years ago, I learned about emotional intelligence, right? Self awareness is number one. And you just said, you know, maybe you can have too much, but generally people don't have enough. And you can use that to your advantage. So. So speaking of emotions, there's this very important quote by a fictional character who said, Fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate leads to suffering. What is your biggest fear? I wanted to ask you that? What's your biggest fear? Is Yoda Correct? Or can fear be a positive tool actually, or change?

Kevin Palmieri 36:19

I think fear is a, a very positive tool. As long as it's bottled effectively, I think of it as it's almost like gasoline, if you use it in the right direction, it's great. But you can also really overuse it and it can create an inferno in your life for sure. For me, it's not being good enough. My greatest fear is my fear of failure. My fear of being left behind my fear of judgment, my fear of not not being good enough, my fear of appearing arrogant. That's a big one. For me, I've had a couple moments, we were talking about self awareness, where I'm thinking it's like, I don't know if anybody's gonna like me after this, like I think, um, because it's, this is an intense, it's, this is more intense than sometimes I am. So it's weird. But that that's a big one for me. I'm terrified of not being liked, which makes it super challenging to do what we do. But you know, you can't necessarily let that run you. When we're talking about like real world stuff, planes and sharks, talk to him flying over the ocean, I'm losing my mind.

Philip Pape 37:19

That's because I worked in the aerospace industry for years, I can tell you the one of the safest thing on the planet. Yeah, no, it doesn't matter. logic isn't good enough. That's so funny. So you mentioned being afraid of how people are going to perceive you. And I'm sure a lot of us face that, whether you call it impostor syndrome, or whatever. But now you've done by the time this episode comes out, you would have done probably more than 1200 podcast episodes. Would you say that experience has changed that fear in any way mitigated? It? Is it? Is it a therapy to deal with the fear? What would you say? Yeah, it's,

Kevin Palmieri 37:54

I don't know, it's hard, because in a way, that fear only gets tested when it gets touched on. So I've had, believe it or not, and again, I'm not inviting this. I don't want this to happen. But I think I've only had three or four people ever reach out and like talk genuine trash, which is good. Like, I'm really happy about that. What I will say is my response to that has improved over the years, which means I think my fear is running me less. Do I want to physically have a hand to hand scrap? Yes, initially I do. I'll be honest, but then it's usually okay. What is there to learn from this? So I would say it has definitely gotten better. And I think one of the reasons it's gotten better is the awareness around a lot of times people are, they're not judging you. They're judging themselves based on what you reveal to them. That's been an unlock for me, understanding that. Look, you you may have said something wrong, but you probably didn't. You probably said something that somebody has never heard in that way from somebody like you, whatever that means. And it's triggering them in some way, shape or form. Maybe they're not ready to face that mirror yet. So they're going to villainize you. I've done it. So I empathize with it. So I would say it's gotten better, but it still scares the poop out of me.

Philip Pape 39:10

That's serious stuff. Yeah. Serious. Definitely. We podcasters you know, we try to tread that line. So it's yeah,

Kevin Palmieri 39:15

it's a challenge.

Philip Pape 39:16

It's a challenge. It's a challenge. All right. Well, here's the here's the penultimate question I like to ask all guests for the listener is what one what one question Did you wish I had asked and what is your answer?

Kevin Palmieri 39:27

Hmm. What is one? I wish since we're on a fitness podcast, you asked what it was like to be a full scale bodybuilder.

Philip Pape 39:37

I should have done that. Yeah, I really should have. So tell us about your whole bodybuilding journey because we could do a whole episode just about that.

Kevin Palmieri 39:45

It was it was the worst. It was the genuine worst. I was in the gym. One day somebody came up to me and as all good stories start, and they said, Hey, you should be a bodybuilder. And I was like, okay, cool. What does that look like? And They're like, reach out to this coach, and they'll help you. And I was like, All right, I love the gym. Cool this How hard can this be? That coach didn't workout. I ended up connecting with another coach. And I'm grateful I had a wonderful coach. He's an IFBB pro. He is like he is awesome. First question he asked me, enhanced or natural, natural, cool, no stress. I was like, Alright, cool. We're good. He's like, yep, don't worry about it. You're good. Natural. He said, If you are willing to suffer more than anybody else, you will win. And it was like, Oh, no. Oh, no. What did I get myself into? Completely natural or not compete? Okay, no, no, no, I would have got smoked Yeah, that's I was gonna say yeah, no competing competing in. I don't even remember. I don't remember what organization it was. OCB OCB was the organization and I had a great relationship with this coach. He was awesome. He was a really good person. So I ended up doing a show I do I do this prep for I think it was eight weeks, while working a job while traveling. I'm bringing my hot plate on the road cooking in hotels literally got to the point where I was blowing out the breakers in my part of the hotel because my my crock pot and all that was too powerful was a whole thing. But I ended up doing this doing this show and I I won my division and I think I placed third or fourth in the open or whatever it is. And it was one of those things where I was very grateful I did it. But I I realized that took a piece of me that I'll never get back there. Just the levels and the links I went to to get as lean as I did. I was really, really, really lean. And I definitely messed up my metabolism. I missed your hormones, my sex drive, I messed up everything doing that. You had to get to what four or 5% or so. I never I never got tested but I I couldn't have been any higher than

Philip Pape 41:43

seven. Yeah, people need to understand that who are listening because it's like even if you want to be lifestyle lean. There's a big difference too. Yeah. And bodybuilding show. Yeah,

Kevin Palmieri 41:50

I couldn't walk up the stairs. I struggled. I literally struggled to walk up the stairs. I used to fall asleep on the ladders at work, because I was just so I mean, I'm doing an hour of cardio a day and lifting. And I'm probably eating 1600 calories. It's just, it's brutal. But I tell tell tell some of my clients 1600 Oh, I would love to eat 60

Philip Pape 42:11

Some of the smaller you know, female. Yeah.

Kevin Palmieri 42:14

And understandable. Understandable. Yeah, for me at you know, somebody who's working out big guy, a lot of muscles and so on. Yeah, doing like heavy legs and all that cardio. So I ended up winning that show. I'm never gonna do this. Again. This is the worst thing I've ever done. I sign up for another show. For some reason. I don't know why. But I ended up getting a cheat meal. And it was like steak, mashed potatoes and broccoli or something and a half a pint of Ben and Jerry's. And I was like, Alright, I can I can live like this. I'm getting ready for bed that night. I couldn't sleep. And I literally said screw it. I'm done. I went downstairs finished the other rest of the Pines texted my coach and said, Hey, I'm not doing this. And then that was it. That was the end of my bodybuilding journey.

Philip Pape 42:52

That's awesome. Ya know, it's a really good thing. We don't talk a lot about stage bodybuilding, mainly because I've not been through it. I listen to a lot about it. And I think it's a fascinating. It's a fascinating study into what the human body's capable of. But it's Yeah, yeah. Takes a lot out of you. Yeah, exactly. I mean, we talked about just the beginning phases of metabolic adaptation that people experienced during dieting, let alone if you went to that level to that extreme. Awesome. So where Kevin, can people learn more about you and your work?

Kevin Palmieri 43:23

I always just say, if you like what we talked about today, this was a unique flavor of it, but very similar to what we talked about. We're on all the podcast platforms were on YouTube, just search next level University. And if you have any questions for me, specifically, Kevin Palmieri on LinkedIn and Facebook and then at never quit kid on Instagram, I'm happy to to answer anything you got.

Philip Pape 43:45

All right. I'm gonna include all those links in the show notes so the listener can find you and Kevin, thank you again. This was an awesome conversation. A lot of fun. Thank you for coming on the show.

Kevin Palmieri 43:53

Thank you, my friend. My pleasure.

Philip Pape 43:56

Philip Pape 3/17/23 Philip Pape 3/17/23

Ep 53: 5 Mistakes People Make During Fat Loss

We uncover 5 of the most common mistakes people make during their fat loss journey.

In today’s special solo episode, we uncover 5 of the most common mistakes people make during their fat loss journey.

As someone who is 8 weeks into my own 12-week fat loss phase as I record this episode, I can empathize with these challenges and offer guidance on what to avoid and how to successfully navigate your next fat loss phase!.

Drawing from my daily experiences with clients who have also faced these common struggles, I share practical advice to help you overcome them and make the most of your health and fitness journey.

Episode resources:

MacroFactor food logging app (use affiliate code “WITSANDWEIGHTS” to extend your free trial):
Ep 21: 21 Ways to Measure Progress and Crush Your Fitness Goals
Ep 25: Lose 30 Pounds (or More) the Right Way and Keep it Off

👉 If you want to learn more about lifting and nutrition, reach out to Philip:

IG: https://www.instagram.com/witsandweights/
Email: philip@witsandweights.com

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Transcript

Philip Pape 00:08

Philip Pape 00:30

Wits & Weights community Welcome to another episode of the Wits & Weights podcast, I thought it was time for another solo episode, where we sit down just you and me to talk about the things that you have asked to learn more about in the realm of health and fitness, so you can upgrade and optimize your body composition. But before we get into the show, I just want to say that I hope you've enjoyed all the value packed interview episodes with guests that we've had over the last few months, guests from across the industry. And what I'm super excited to announce right here right now is our upcoming lineup of evidence base experts this year, and they include none other than Brandon the crews, Andy Baker, Jeff hain, Dr. Ron McLean, Cody McBroom, Eric Helms, and Greg knuckles, to name a few. So make sure to follow the show in your podcast app to automatically download these episodes. today for this very special solo episode, I came up with five of the more common mistakes that people make during fat loss. This topic is top of mind because I personally am just a few weeks away from completing another fat loss phase. So I can both empathize with these mistakes. I've made them in the past. And they're a good reminder of what not to do, and what to do instead, so that you can gracefully navigate the eight to 16 weeks of your next fat loss phase. I also have the opportunity every day to work with clients who face the same struggles and have learned to avoid them. So here we go. Number one is just going too fast, even if you are within the evidence based range of 0.25 to 1% of your body weight per week. And this is the range that is intended to minimize your muscle loss. Even if you're within that a lot of people will try to push that to the upper range, the point seven, five of the 1%. Thinking that okay, well, if that's the most I can go, I'm gonna go all the way and diet as quickly as I can. But here's the problem, when you do that, you're in a bigger deficit. And a bigger deficit means fewer calories to eat. And if you're already in a position where let's say you didn't have a lot of muscle mass, or your metabolism just isn't as high as someone else, you just may end up with very low calories, even from the beginning of the fat loss phase. So if you're only burning, say 1800 calories, and you pick a rate that puts you at 1100 or 1000, that just right off the bat, even in week one may not be sustainable for you. What I would rather you do and I do this with clients is pick something more conservative, it's still, it's still aggressive enough, such that within 12 weeks or so you're going to have a meaningful amount of fat loss. But pick a number where Yeah, I can eat, I can eat these calories, no problem at the beginning. And knowing that my metabolism will adapt downward during the diet, and I'm actually going to have to eat less and less most likely, where I can still sustain the calories that I end up with in the last few weeks of the diet, just assume your metabolism is going to go down over that phase. And think that way so that you can be successful, I'd rather be successful, then try to be aggressive and then fall off the rails on week two, or week one. So do the math, decide what target this is going to get you at to be at a realistic calorie deficit and set that as your goal. Even if it's not your final final final goal, you have to understand that it might take a few phases to get there. But the point is to make progress and actually get there eventually. So if you set a target like that, here's the thing you can do. As you get going, if you feel like Hey, I just said my target for 1600 calories, but I really have no problem eating 1600 I could probably eat 1500 a day or 1400 a day, just go ahead and go for 1400 a day. Despite that the target says 1600. So if you're using an app, like macro factor, which I highly recommend, I use it my clients use it. I have a discount code, Wits & Weights, that'll get you an extra free week. I'll put that in the show notes. But if you use an app like that, it's going to tell you the amount of protein fats and carbs you want to get and go ahead and get the protein but undershoot on the fats and carbs if you have no problem doing that, and that will also speed up your results without it really pushing too far past

Philip Pape 04:59

The upper range of what the evidence says. So that's number one is going too fast, pick the right number and stick with it. Number two, is having this all or nothing mentality. Now you've probably heard this a lot, right? All or nothing as in, if I fail, then I'm just going to say what the hell and I'm going to eat the rest of the pizza or the rest of the box of cookies. And then the rest of my week is shot. I'm not actually talking about that so much as the dieting mentality overall, are you using a rigid approach, or a flexible approach, because a rigid approach will eventually inevitably lead to an all or nothing result? Let me explain what I mean. So if you have a meal plan given to you that says, Eat exactly these foods every day, well, as soon as you do something slightly off of that, you've just failed, right? At least in your mind, and somewhat in reality, right? Because you were expected to stick to this exact plan. If instead, you take a flexible approach that gives you some wealth, flexibility, but not just that some permission, right, some grace, some allowance to make the choices that you want to make within your lifestyle, then you have a significantly lower chance of, quote, unquote, failing, because there's this y tolerance of success. And so let me explain what I mean. There's, there's flexible dieting that we talked about in this show, which, of course, is simply sticking with a certain calorie and macro prescription, and then choosing the foods to meet those numbers. But then even within that, there is additional flexibility, things like diet breaks, where you just stop dieting, and you go to your maintenance calories for a day, two days a week, a month, whatever makes sense, to break the mental fatigue of dieting, there's something like carb cycling, where you have some days that are higher carbs than others. And so you could just swap off your carbs, right, I had a client this week who she was talking about her performance in the gym going down and a fat loss phase, she felt kind of tired for her workouts. I said, Why don't we shift the carbs to front load them mostly before your workout in the meal before you workout. And we can even steal from a day when you're not training. And that's a traditional approach called carb cycling. But you don't just want to do it indiscriminately, you want to tie it to your workout timing. So that's meal timing. Then there's also other nonlinear dieting approaches like having two higher calorie days and five lower calorie days, where the weekly calories are the same. One of my clients recently, we had been steadily progressing through her diet, and she was on consistent calories every day. And she kept struggling with the weekend. And she wasn't really failing to hit her targets. She was very, very disciplined and held yourself accountable. But she kept telling me no check ins, like, I'm just not enjoying the weekends, I really want to be able to let loose a little bit. Because the routine is different. We're going out and so on. But I've been keeping it under control because you're my coach, and I'm trying to get to a goal. I said, Okay, well, that's great. I love your discipline. But how about we try a nonlinear approach. If your weekdays are pretty boring and routine and you're busy, and you're just eating at home, and you have lots of vegetables, and you have lean meats and things like that? Can you eat 200 fewer calories a day in the weekday? She's like, Yeah, no problem. In fact, sometimes I forget, and I don't even eat as much as I am supposed to eat. So okay, good. So we're going to steal the calories from the weekdays, I'm going to put them on the weekends. How's that sound? Oh, I didn't realize we could do that. That's awesome. I think that'd be great. And then immediately after one week, we realized that this was what she needed. It gave her the psychological break on the weekend, the ability to go out to enjoy yourself, put her weekly calories are exactly the same. So think about creatively, how you can have a flexible approach to everything you do. So that all the things that tripped you up in the past are now accommodated within your week.

Philip Pape 09:05

Hey, this is Philip Pape. And if you feel like you've put in effort to improve your health and fitness, but aren't getting results, I invite you to apply for a one on one coaching to make real progress and get the body you desire. We'll work together to figure out what's missing so you can look better, perform better and feel better. Just go to wits & weights.com/coaching, to learn about my program and apply today. Now back to the episode. All right, number three, too much cardio, or too much high volume training. Now I talk about cardio a lot on this show, you know that I'm not a huge fan of too much cardio. I like to use the metric of you know, don't do more than half of the time you lift as cardio. So if you lift four hours a week, no more than two hours a week of cardio. But the reason we don't want to use too much cardio during a fat loss phase is because cardio or two walking, running high impact movement, lots and lots of medium or high intensity movement is, is stress is a stressor, right? It's an overall stressor on your body. Unlike for example, walking, which is not, it can also impact your recovery and your muscle building, it can impact it physically, when you are using those same muscles that you're trying to build. And now you're causing some micro tears, and you're impeding their recovery from your lifting session. But there's also a metabolic aspect metabolic adaptation aspect to cardio where if you do too much of it, your body is programming itself for this calorie efficiency and actually burns fewer calories. And it's a conflict between this endurance mode and this strength are holding on to muscle mode, well, we want to be into that preservation of muscle mode. So this is why if you don't like cardio, or you don't want to do much, you really don't have to, even in a fat loss phase, I want you to do a lot of walking. Yes. And I want you to lift really heavy, but too much cardio can be could could interfere with what you're trying to do here. Some cardio is okay. And sometimes we want to add in cardio or hit sessions later in a fat loss phase if you're a more athletic client who's going for a more extreme level of leanness, and it could be helpful, in which case, you're making more of a compromise between that and preserve your muscle. So I'm just talking about the general population here. The other thing we want to avoid here is the high volume training, meaning if if my clients telling me that they're constantly sore from the workouts, and then working with a personal trainer, you know, they're not working with me on the training side, for their direct programming. And they're like, I'm constantly sore, one of the first things I ask is, let me see your training logs and your programming, because it sounds like you might be doing a high volume program. And we don't want high volume during fat loss, we want to modest level of volume with high intensity, a high weight on the bar, I'd rather you be doing low to moderate reps with a very high weight for like three movements a workout. So you have tons of recovery and rest. And you really take care of yourself during a fat loss. But you send that muscle building signal to your body so that you continue to replenish your muscle tissue and don't lose that very special tissue. We want to lose fat, we don't want to lose muscle. So look at your training and make sure that it is not something causing too much recovery interference, too much. Stress, right? So high volume training and cardio will do that. Number four mistake Mistake number four, not tracking progress. Okay, and this could be whatever you want it to be. But in my world, at least with my clients, we're talking calories, and macros, we track our weight, okay. And we can go off a whole discussion about the importance of tracking weight every day, but not not caring about the daily weight. We track it every day so that we have the trend of weight over time. body measurements, like your circumference measurements, I can't tell you how many times a client says help me the weight is not going down. I'm trying to lose weight and it's not going down. And we just started training. We just started all the things we just started a fat loss phase. And I say, Well, let's look at your waist measurement. Oh, it went down by two inches. That is huge. How do you feel? Well, I feel great. I mean, my clothes are fitting better. You know, I look better in the mirror. But my weight has gone on like, okay, let's, let's get our priorities right here and think about what the data is telling us. If your weight is the same, but you feel better. If I told you that you can feel exactly what you want to feel and look great for the rest of your life. And you're going to do it 10 pounds heavier. Would you rather be 10 pounds lighter and not feel that way? Or would you take that extra pounds knowing that you actually got the result you wanted? Right? That's kind of what it comes down to. So it's all the things of progress, the food, the measurements, the weight, and then biofeedback, which are slightly more qualitative measures, but they're not really qualitative in the sense that you know, your body and week to week to week if you track these things, you can tell how they're changing. Things like hunger, stress, sleep, recovery, energy, mood, right? Also, all of my clients when they check in with me, whether it's weekly, bi weekly, whatever their checking cadence is, they fill in a short form that looks kind of like a journal where they document their wins for the week. Their lessons for the week, right aha moments revelations, the roadblocks that got in their way. Okay, these are problems that tripped them up or could have tripped them up that we can come up with solutions for and momentum builders. Momentum builders are the solutions that you might have come up with yourself. Or maybe I dropped an idea during the week and said try this and you did and all of a sudden it unlocked something and created momentum. So it's kind of like a journal. All of this is is tracking. Right now if you want to learn about all the ways that we can measure progress, go back and check out episode 21. And it's titled 21 ways to measure progress and crush your fitness goals. Number five, the number five mistake is not learning from your mistakes. This is obviously not exclusive to fat loss, health and fitness, or exclusive to anything really we all do this. But if you are tracking your progress, like we just talked about with Mistake number four people don't do that if you're tracking your progress, that is giving you the feedback, you need to identify where your actions lead to certain outcomes. And then to change your actions next time. That's learning from mistakes. That is the closed feedback loop. When I joined Toastmasters over 10 years ago, I was a terrible speaker, I was nervous, I didn't know what I was doing. Well, through a process of speaking in front of people, and having people tell me what they observed, I was able to very quickly within months, significantly improve my ability to speak. If that's how skill works. Well guess what? Fat Loss is a skill, it's a bunch of skills. And if you're not tracking, if you're not doing all these things, you're never going to know why you failed, why something happened, okay. And we're gonna assume that if you're listening to Wits, & Weights, you're doing all the things you need to do, and following an evidence based approach to fat loss. But still, something's going to trip you up, I get tripped up. I mean, this time during the fat loss phase, there were little things that tripped me up like, a few weeks in a row, my metabolism went way down. And I plateaued a bit. And I realized it was because my step count wasn't where it needed to be. Well, that you could look at that as an opportunity mistake, whatever you want to call it. But I track my steps. So because I track my steps, I could look through all my data and say, Hey, what's different? You know, the funny thing is, when you're in a fat loss phase, sometimes you just move less without realizing it. And by the way, it's winter, here, it's snow, working from home, you know, there's definitely lots of reasons, excuses, whatever you want to say, where you just might not walk as much. And as you get lighter and a little bit weaker, a little bit more tired during a fat loss phase, you tend to just move less anyway. So that data was a wake up call to me, oh, I need to get my step count back up. And so I went back up to my normal average of like 10 to 12k. And lo and behold, my metabolism responded. And this week, finally, for the first time in about a month, I actually have about 100 more calories a day to play with during my fat loss phase, which feels like a feast honestly, in relative terms. So learn from your mistakes by tracking, and then using that information to change your actions for the future. Alright, there are obviously more than five mistakes that people make during fat loss. But these are some of the big ones. And if you want a full walkthrough of the entire process of preparing for executing and coming out of a fat loss phase in the best shape you've ever been, and you have a decent amount of weight to lose, go back and check out episode 25 titled lose 30 pounds or more the right way and keep it off. Now, even if you don't have a lot of weight to lose, there were several episodes I did back around that period, around the whole process of building muscle losing fat, how it all links up together. And wherever you are, there's something for you. So let's recap the five mistakes. Number one going too fast, even if it is within the evidence based range, just going too fast that it's not sustainable. Number two, using a rigid approach instead of a flexible approach, so that you can avoid the all or nothing mentality. Number three, doing too much cardio or high volume training, instead of focusing on high load train to build or hold on to muscle. Number four, not tracking progress, whether calories, weight, body measurements, biofeedback and so on. Number five, not learning from your mistakes using the data to see how you can change our actions and thus change the outcome. Wits & Weights community if you're interested in a free 30 minute call, where I don't sell you on anything whatsoever. And I answer whatever questions you have about your personal journey to upgrade and optimize your body to finally look and feel great for the rest of your life. Just check out the link in the show notes. As always, stay strong. And I'll talk to you next time here on the Wits & Weights podcast.

Philip Pape 19:32

Thanks for listening to the show. Before you go, I have a quick favor to ask. If you enjoy the podcast. Let me know by leaving a five star review in Apple podcasts and telling others about the show. Thanks again for joining me Philip Pape in this episode of Wits & Weights. I'll see you next time and stay strong.

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