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Philip Pape 4/28/23 Philip Pape 4/28/23

Ep 65: Programming in Kettlebells for Strength, Powerlifting, and the Big 3 Lifts with Wil Del Pizzo

Today, we have a special guest joining us - Wil Del Pizzo! Wil shares his insights on kettlebell training, the Big 3 lifts, programming lifts in a group setting and youth sports, and advice for trainers and coaches.

Wil is a fitness expert with a passion for kettlebell and strength training. He's a StrongFirst Certified and TRX Certified trainer with over 13 years of experience in the fitness industry. He was a former Strength Coach for the Chatsworth High School Baseball Team, where he helped produce several high-level athletes and professionals. He is also the owner of Built Strong Strength Club, where you can download some awesome programs for kettlebells, strength and power, and the Big 3.
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Book a FREE 30-minute call with Philip here.
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Today you’ll learn all about:

[1:30] How Wil got into the fitness industry
[3:00] Why kettlebells for strength training
[6:37] Quick snapshots of kettlebell workouts
[9:25] Barbells and the big 3 lifts
[11:59] Squats, workout, and progressive overload
[16:29] The overhead press as the fourth lift
[18:32] TRX suspension training
[22:05] Programming powerlifts and progression in a group setting
[22:16] Tony shares what he likes about Philip and the Wits & Weights community
[26:20] Coaching the individual
[28:07] Balancing skill development with strength training, conditioning, periodization, and recovery in training for youth sports
[35:06] Choosing the right coaching client
[43:04] Staying mentally tough despite the struggles in the fitness industry
[45:55] How to connect with Wil
[47:00] Outro

Episode resources:

Wil’s website: https://www.builtstrongstrength.com/
His Instagram accounts: @wildelpizzo and @builtstrongstrength

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https://witsandweights.com/free-call

Learn about 1-on-1 coaching ⬇️
https://witsandweights.com/coaching

Ask Philip anything ⬇️

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Transcript

Wil Del Pizzo 00:00

get one or two kettlebells with you and really get you going and get you a great workout and consistently over and over and over the volume of training that you can do with kettlebells I have found can surpass traditional barbell training. And once again, that's depending on programming.

Philip Pape 00:20

Wil Del Pizzo 01:35

So I was in another industry before I even got into the fitness world. But I was that typical gym rat. So I was a high school athlete and we lifted poorly at your high school. Sure, variety, you know, football and track and stuff like that. It's about volume and moving as much weight as you can and not necessarily the safest. That's evolved a lot in high schools as evolved a lot in high schools. But, you know, went to college and I got into broadcasting, but I always just kind of a gym rat got back to the gym in my early 20s. And just kind of stayed there. And like any young buck, I was all about upper body. Very little legs, guys. Yeah. Yeah. Right. You know, because that's what's the most impressive part is those big cannons, but did that stuff and then over the years, I've just kind of evolved and kind of always kind of kept coming back into the industry until I went well. I'm not happy doing what I'm doing. So what do I do? And what do I know how to do? One was play rock and roll. And the other one was to lift weights. So I said, Well, let's see. Let's do both. Hey, why don't I go and have a good time? Right? That's awesome. That's funny, because I used to be a musician, myself. And I could see, I could see similar some similarities between those things and how you think but uh, so you've been in the fitness industry now? Solid for about 13 years, right? Yeah, coming up on 14. Yeah, but 14 years. Yeah. And you specialize. So this is one thing I want to kind of clue in on a little bit, you specialize in kettlebell training. And I want to talk about that, because I don't think we've talked about that on the show. My experience with kettlebells was was to CrossFit. They did CrossFit for eight years.

Philip Pape 03:10

Russian kettlebell swings, and you know my wads and I do have a kettlebell handle for my dumbbells at home, where I pull it out after deadlifts or something for some posterior work. But why kettlebells for strength training,

Wil Del Pizzo 03:24

bang for the buck, mostly, it's bang for the buck. It's really kind of all encompassing, I can build strength, I can build muscle, I can build power, and I can get a cardio aerobic workout, kind of all in there. And you can kind of mess with parameters, like any program, you can kind of mess with parameters and do that type of stuff. So it's really kind of bang for the buck for me, as athletes and athletes that I train, posterior chain is big, you know, you really need get strong glutes, strong hamstring, lower back, strong stuff like that. So it's really kind of helps with that explosiveness and all that conditioning and stuff like that. So I know as a tool, as a tool, I can use a kettlebell and get a whole lot of work done. As opposed to like barbells, dumbbells, you know, cables, bands, all that other stuff. And there's nothing wrong with all that other stuff. I'm a deadlift, or by kind of heart is so there's nothing wrong with that stuff. But just with kettlebells I know I can get one or two kettlebells with you and really get you going and get you a great workout and consistently over and over and over the volume of training that you can do with kettlebells I have found can surpass traditional barbell training. And once again, that's depending on programming you can get,

Philip Pape 04:44

you know, I guess Yeah. So that's interesting, because what you just said there's, you know, the mode, the mode of your training and what your goals are and what you're trying to accomplish is the one of the most important considerations. So you said speed, work power and also conditioning? And that makes a lot of sense. Would you say somebody who just has purely a strength goal that isn't an athlete and looking for explosiveness or speed or conditioning? is better off with barbells? Or is there still a place for the kettlebells? In that context,

Wil Del Pizzo 05:13

I'm biased. I'm biased. Here's the thing with bells, though, like there's a learning curve, you got to put time into them, there's little nuances with them that you kind of have to figure out and do. We don't call it Training, we call it practice, we practice with the bells, okay? You have to work with them and get comfortable with them, it was one of those things you just kind of randomly pick up every once in a while, you're gonna get beat up a little bit, as opposed to and I'm not knocking any of these, but like a benchpress, you can kind of think there's nuances to the benchpress. But you can kind of get underneath the barbell and kind of muscle around a little bit, the kettlebell, if you try to fight it, it just chews you up so badly that you kind of have to put it down and reassess what you're doing what's going on. So in terms of like strength, the way that loads are in the way we can adjust those things, you can build a lot of strength in a short amount of time with the kettlebell.

Philip Pape 06:16

Cool. Yeah, you know, I was my next question was going to just segue into barbells, because I'm biased on that side. And I'm actually getting more intrigued by the kettlebells. Because the a good good friend of mine, he's also coach here in Enfield, his name is wrong, Andrew Romeo, he's got he came from across the background. So now it's more strength conditioning, there's a ton of different kettlebells. And I'm like, what else? What else could we do with those? So what if you just give us a quick snapshot of what either an individual workout would look like? Like, let's say you're working? Lower body? what that might look like using kettlebells.

Wil Del Pizzo 06:52

So I like to do Turkish get ups as a warm up.

Philip Pape 06:55

Oh, get ups got

Wil Del Pizzo 06:56

right. Yeah, it's so if you want to take skill, yeah, I mean, so you but you can break that even if you break it down into segments, you can still get a lot out of the Turkish get up. So like a Turkish get up would be a warm up. Three by one,

Philip Pape 07:10

hold on, just explain the Turkish get up for people.

Wil Del Pizzo 07:13

So Turkish get a basically you're lying on the ground with a kettlebell over your chest. And you continue to hold it overhead and over your chest as you try to stand up as you stand up. Right. So there's various movements in there, it promotes hip mobility, shoulder mobility, hip stability, shoulder stability, spine, core legs, it gets everything. So as a warm up, it's great as kind of a warm up, because you're just kind of priming the gears a little bit to get ready to go. So I would start with some Turkish get ups three by ones, three sets of one on each side. With a moderate weight, if you want to go heavy, heavy is a relative term, but with a moderate weight, just to kind of get everything going. I would throw some goblet squats in there, verse session for a second. So that would be my warm up a strength session would be goblet squats, any form of goblet squats. That's where you hold the bell kind of in front of your chest and you do squats. single rack squats with one battle Bell over the side double rack squats. You can do various squats like that. You can even do lunges, or everybody's favorite, but Bulgarian split

Philip Pape 08:17

Oh, yes. Yeah. I haven't found somebody who actually loves those maybe better than I know. But yeah, well, that's a

Wil Del Pizzo 08:25

sick individual, sick, sick person. So we can do stuff along that lines, maybe even some cleans to work on that posterior change chain to get that pull in there to get some lats kinds of shoulders in there. And if you want to go like bare bones, then I would end with some kettlebell swings, like 10 by 10s 10, every minute on the minute for 10 minutes. So get your 100 swings in. So that way you kind of get the whole lower body workout and get a good kind of cardio workout in there also. And that would be really, really, really, really basic bare bones.

Philip Pape 08:57

No, that's great. Just so people get an idea of of the versatility of the kettlebell and how you could load it right. Again, I haven't learned much about it. Other than like, maybe Dan John, I know he's big into kettlebells Oh, yeah. Yeah. Guys like that. I can respect it. You know, when you hear a guy talking about it like that, and he's big, strong Dude, that's trained a lot of athletes and Olympic lifters. You know, there's respect for that. So let's move over to barbells now, okay, and we'll start with the big three but then I want to add another one to that in a bit. And I incorporate personally these these, the barbell movements multiple times every week, you know, in some capacity and the listeners hear me talk about them a lot. But I just love to hear your perspective as an experience trainer and strength coach, like talk about barbells

Wil Del Pizzo 09:43

Yeah, barbells is kind of a staple. I'm not a big power clean guy. I'm a big jerk guy. I'm not a big like barbell snatch guy. I'd rather do a kettlebell snatch, hey, but I'm not a big like barbell snatch guy like, I can teach it and I have taught it is The nuances of it once again, you really got to break down the last like six weeks of this, six weeks of that six weeks of that. So we've kind of stripped those away. And we just kind of did the big drum here, a big three here at our facility. So that'd be the deadlift, the bench and the squat, because you can get the most out of those lifts the the most compound, you can make arguments for the bench about the functionality of it. There's not a lot of times you're going to be on your back, like pushing a truck off your chest. But hey, you know, don't kill the sacred cow. But you can, you know,

Philip Pape 10:32

well, you know, I've heard I've heard that argument. But then the counter argument is the leverage you get with that allows you to push a lot more load than say the overhead press right. So it gives you a little extra stimulus. Yeah, continue?

Wil Del Pizzo 10:43

Well, yeah. And with the bench, like, it's really sports specific, like a football player like alignment, I'd be like, yeah, you need a bench press, because that's all you're doing is just that forward pushing motion. So yeah, that makes sense to me. But with the big three, you just kind of hit everything. You know, the deadlift, you kind of hit everything, the bench, you kind of hit everything in the squat, you kind of get everything, you know, you get that lat active let you get that lat activation, you know, you're grinding yourself into the ground, you got to brace your core, you kind of have to incorporate everything into them. So in terms of functionality, I think we all understand what a squat is, like how purposeful that is. We do that every day. And the deadlift, the hip hinge. Oh, yeah, we all we all. Yeah, all the time. We all pick up stuff poorly, all the time. So just the hip hinge and the squat alone. Like if the workout gods came down and said, No more exercises, you only get one, choose the squat.

Philip Pape 11:41

Love it. Right with you 100% 100% All day,

Wil Del Pizzo 11:45

you can just squat all day. So we incorporate a lot of that. In our training. Here. We base a lot of our training here at the facility on those big three lifts.

Philip Pape 11:55

Yeah. And you covered, you touched on a few other things. I mean, first that you said if that's the only thing you can do, why the squat, it's the squat. And it touched on the fact that you activate some of these other muscle groups, right? There's a lot of stabilization and isometrics going on. And people listening. You know, you mentioned the core, you mentioned the lats, there's so many things. Are you frozen? Or no, no, I'm here. You're just like, we're still okay. That's some mindfulness. They're listening that says something, I gotta keep getting better. So yeah, just like when somebody says, How do I get a six pack? It's like, Well, do you squat? Like start there, you know, get get. But then of course, once you're super strong, and you want to go develop your physique further, you can throw other things in. So I love that on the squat, do you do the low bar or high bar you mix it up, mix it up.

Wil Del Pizzo 12:46

So myself, I do a high bar squat, I just find that's the most comfortable for me. In terms of our classes, we do every type of squat. So it's not like you'd come in like so Fridays are squat day, Mondays are our deadlift day. Wednesdays are bench day. And then Fridays are squat. They just talk programming. So we do every type of squat. Right, so I'm doing back squats. I'm doing box squats. I'm doing bandit squats. I'm doing front squats and doing Zurcher squats. Which No Yes. Yeah. You know? Yeah, split squats, you know. So I don't think we've ever repeated a workout. So if you come in and do if we come in and just do a normal everyday squat, squat, we'll do threes, right? Do it reps of three. It might be three months, maybe four before you just come back to a regular squat.

Philip Pape 13:47

So in that context is are your clients trying to this is a group group context, right?

Wil Del Pizzo 13:53

Yeah, let's go into the group context. Yes. Okay. No, actually, you know, I do all my clients.

Philip Pape 13:57

So how do you how do they progress? Like how do you know they're getting stronger? If they're varying the squats? Are they are they testing one RMS on different variants regularly or what's the progression scheme?

Wil Del Pizzo 14:08

So that depends on the person okay, you know, I have I have some people who 5060 year olds no reason to one rep max I'm sure you know, you know what I mean? There's no reason to tense a skill of itself. Yeah, I mean, come on, we're just trying to be healthy and that stuff like that I keep immaculate records. So I will keep the same weight go more reps go more weight, less reps. So we just have those kind of parameters. Depth is a big thing. Your mobility and stuff like that. In terms of so that's the one on once every it like all my clients and all our classes, I base it off the big three, and I forced kettlebells onto people. Work man because I'm such an advocate of them. But so yeah, the in terms of stuff like that you kind of have to Go with the individual with classes. We keep once again, kind of Immaculate records, we see what's going on. And people know what's what's happening. When they're lifted more, they're there, five rep PR and a three rep PR, when they come back to it, they know where they're at. Got it. And so we do have strength contests here, where we've logged everything. So we can kind of see, like, you know, six months ago, you were doing 100 pounds, and now you're doing 150 pounds, and as necessary is increased. So we kind of keep those records just to kind of let them know where they're at.

Philip Pape 15:32

Cool. Yeah, I was just curious, because that's super important. We talked about all the time, as well as progressive overload and making sure you're actually training harder each time. And it's funny because I just recently finished a bulk and in December, and I was doing a conjugate or Westside style program. And every Monday and Tuesday, I'm doing a different variant of a lift, usually rotate through like six or seven, and don't come back to the same lift to like eight weeks later. You know, but but that involves testing one, two rooms, it's a whole different thing. Yeah.

Wil Del Pizzo 16:00

And they're 10 by ones and they're maxing on every day, I read a lot of the West Side barbell stuff, love their stuff. I mean, you just got to concede the fact that they know what they're talking about. So we take a little bit of what they do, I take a little bit of what they do. And then we kind of kind of follow on the back end of it with doing little left behind to enhance the deadlift enhance the bench to

Philip Pape 16:23

accessories. Yeah, yeah. So one of my favorite lifts is the fourth lift. If we haven't talked about the overhead press, right, often quite often called the forklift. So I like that fact that it's hard. And it's you know, you cannot you have to be careful how you progress and it requires seems to require more volume to actually progress. But where does that fit into to all this from your perspective?

Wil Del Pizzo 16:45

So, you know, we all do an overhead lifts. We have a specific arm class, I'll do overhead lifts. I bench that I benched. I pair that with the bench. Okay, yeah. Right. So I pair that with the bench. So we will do that overhead lifts. We don't have a specific like, okay, like the fourth day is the overhead, right? Overhead Press day. I don't know the need for it. You know, it's kind of one of those activities is like I get it everybody says like, it's really satisfactory to like, pick heavyweight up and push it over your head. I would say it's more fun to pick up heavyweight off the Florida deadlift.

Philip Pape 17:27

It doesn't have to be a competition. Yeah, right.

Wil Del Pizzo 17:32

Do what you want. So I we do a lot of I do a lot of overhead pressing, a lot of singular overhead pressing, that barbell overhead pressing, you'll get a lot of that hyperextending in that back with a lot of people. And so they want to sit way into it. Yeah, and now it's kind of a risk reward type thing for me. So we'll work in some overhead, or I'll work in some overhead press with a lot of clients. But we'll stay kind of below the shoulder a little bit and work a little bit more and more mobility and stuff like that as well. Just raw power overhead.

Philip Pape 18:08

Right? Yeah. It's interesting, because it used to be it used to be an Olympic lift right? years ago. And then they got rid of it like the 60s, because of some controversy between Russia and the US. There's a whole story behind this.

Wil Del Pizzo 18:19

There's been some controversy between Russia the US. Yeah, so it's definitely

Philip Pape 18:24

been one or two. Anyway, so I want to talk about group classes. But before that, I see that you're TRX certified. I wanted to ask about TRX suspension training, because I personally haven't done it. I've heard it talked about the guys on like mind pump and other great podcasts I listened to talk about all the time. And I've even recommended it to some clients because of their equipment situation. So can you explain what you can do with that kind of suspension training, everything.

Wil Del Pizzo 18:52

So it's great, I found a great for progressions. Some people can't do, they can't push up, they can't do a push up off the floor, they just lacked the coordination, they might lack the core strength, they might just lack pure strength in order to get a proper push up. And, you know, we start from the plank, okay, let's get a strong plank, and we kind of build up from there. But it allows me to adjust the difficulty very quickly and instantaneously. So we can still get a push up motion going and learn how to activate that core, learn how to move everything in the same area. You know, it's great for pulling exercises. You know, we're really smashing those rhomboids together really, really working on that scapular control, which a lot of people need a lot of work with, you know that for their shoulder stability, squats all day long. People need that neck cushioning, but they need the handles in order to make sure they can sit down and stay upright. Upper, you know, keep their proper posture because they just don't have the mobility and they so it gives them that little extra sense of cushioning and, and, and okay, I can do this and I'm right there. And we can work on single leg stuff with the TRX. A lot of core exercises because you're suspended, you know, think of, think of a stability ball, like a big stability ball, ISO ball, like, you can do a lot of stuff with that with the course. So it's a version of the stability ball without having this big rubber ball sitting on the corner, I can hang it around and do a bunch of things with it. So you can kind of, you know, your little pretty sets of curls and stuff like there too.

Philip Pape 20:36

So in your, in your gym is that that's primarily the, the mode you use it in is getting people from, you know, mobility or physical limitations to full depth or full scapular retraction, or whatever it is, before they go to the main lift.

Wil Del Pizzo 20:50

Yeah, I'll use it as auxiliary lift, people are rehabbing and they're cleared for physical therapist, I'll get a lot of those people and knees and shoulders and stuff like that. So they have a functional range of motion in their joint, they just need to get a little bit more out of it. So for like your knees, your hips, and like that, we need to get a little more depth out of that squat. You know, they're functional, but we can get a little more depth out of it. And that just provides that safety that they're looking for. So in terms of like putting it in groups, use it all the time for rows use all the time. For inverted rows, we do a lot of core off of that stuff. Because we just kind of, once again, what I like to smash posterior training, sir. Two to one ratio is usually what I do. So for our exercise, we do two back exercises.

Philip Pape 21:41

I love them. And because that's that strong back is a good back. I mean, basically, I'd rather I'd rather have a stride like this I'd rather have a strong bad back and weak bad back. You know, I mean, if you're gonna put it that way, too.

Wil Del Pizzo 21:52

Yeah, I mean, what is it don't don't wish for lighter weights wish for a stronger back? Yes.

Philip Pape 21:59

So I'm asking you, I'm asking you these questions, because it's my show and I get to ask things and Elena learn about but I know a lot of people listening also don't know about some of these things. So it's good to have options and people wondering, oh, you know, that's that's what I could do. If I can't quite do this movement is potentially look at, you know, TRX system or whatever.

22:17

My name is Tony from a strength lifter in my 40s Thank you to Phil in his Wits, & Weights community for helping me learn more about nutrition, and how to implement better ideas into my strength training. Phil has a very, very good understanding of macros, and chemical compounds and hormones and all that. And he's continuously learning. That's what I like about Phil, he's got a great sense of humor, he's very relaxed, very easy to talk to. One of the greatest things about Phil, in my view is that he practices what he preaches, he also works out with barbells, he trains heavy, not as heavy as me, but he trains heavy. So if you talk with him about getting in better shape, eating better, he's probably going to give you some good advice. And I would strongly recommend you talk with him. And we'll help you out. Thanks.

Philip Pape 23:00

So group classes, I did group classes for years and CrossFit. I've seen I've seen the benefits of it in terms of the camaraderie and the community and the efficiency and all these other things. What are the challenges that you as a coach have to split your time between people? So how do you do that with the power lifts and make sure people are using good form?

Wil Del Pizzo 23:23

So we kind of cap our classes, we don't I don't like to get 40 or 50 people in a class? You know, it's just I can do it. It's not that I haven't done it is just, you know, it can get sloppy. As you can see in some of these some of these gyms. So I'll pair I have you have to make a quick assessment of the class and who's in the class, you know, your strong ones are you know who your ones are, you know, your spectrum. Yeah. So I can kind of see what's going on. And it depends on how many people in the class, sometimes I'll just throw all my strong people over on one side. Okay, you know, you're all working on these barbells over here, because I don't have to, I can see him from across the room and yell something they can click in, you know, so I can focus more of my time over on the people who need a little bit more attention, and then I can progress them up. Right? It's not always like we start with PVC pipes a lot of the time. Sure, you know, and then we just kind of build up from there. If it's a bigger if I can just focus on those two or three, leave everybody else alone quote unquote, alone, then I'll do that. Sometimes you have to like okay, who am I really, really strong people. Okay, I'm gonna start pairing them in groups with people who need a little bit more attention because there's a lot of people who need a lot of attention. So then I trust them enough and we're kind of in the same mindset that they can help coach me up a little bit. You know what I mean, Buddy System Yeah, so that way and it helps pull. I hate the term weaker, but it helps pull the weaker ya know the future. Oh, yes, it helps bring them up and gets everybody incorporated and kind of helping each other out. So you have to make a quick assessment of who's in your class and what's going on. There's a lot of times you got heavy hitters in all your classes. Everybody, you know, everybody's a heavy hitter, you're like, This is what we're doing. Don't kill yourself. Let's go pretty independent. Yeah, so independent study. But, you know, you kind of pair what's going on. And then you kind of see the new people and you make a quick assessment on the fly, how they move if they move correctly, or if they move if they move in a safe manner. That's the goal and all group classes, not everybody's going to want to get into the nuance of mastering that deadlift, but they want to deadlift. So you want to make sure we have everybody moving safely. Yep. Right, moving safely. That's it, I'm gonna go if we can move safely. And I can push up and keep on pushing. Yeah, I'm gonna keep on pushing up. But you kind of make that assessment, the individuals like, oh, okay, we've hit where you want to be. Right? And that's fine. That's where you want to be. Hopefully, you'll see what's going on, and come on through. But we want to move everybody safely. Got it. And that's all we want to do is just move everybody safely move everybody as efficiently as we possibly can.

Philip Pape 26:15

Yeah, so that sounds like an important thing, that somebody who's looking for guidance, maybe, you know, they're not looking for the attention, or even the price point of personal training, they also don't want to go on their own and figure it out. Knowing that there's that safety is probably the number one thing I mean, I know what form talking to people, it's, yeah, you want to be efficient, you want to have vertical bar of path and all that so that you can lift the most weight. But at the end of the day, it comes down to avoiding injury and actually be able to do this for a long time. Right? Yeah, it's a good sounds like a good balance between that as long as it's a well run gym, like sounds like yours is that, you know, manages the, the size and properly, you know, pays attention to people that need it, and so on. So that's, that's cool.

Wil Del Pizzo 26:54

Right? You got you always got to coach the individual, you know, in the group atmosphere. And I wish I learned when I was doing youth sports, the high school, the baseball team that you mentioned earlier, you kind of have to coach the individuals and then get people in a position to succeed, right, and get them in places where they can kind of be because if you've worked, if you worked in a commercial gym, or ran commercial gyms or something like that, there's just people who just want to come in and just kind of move some weights, feel good, break a little bit of sweat and go home. Nothing wrong with that. And then there's the ones who want to come in, like, I am trying to get as big as a house and strong as a bear. Let's go. Yeah, you know, okay, let's go be that guy for a while. We try to, because we believe in or I certainly believe in those big three lifts, like the purpose of them. So we coach within those within that class, what we got going on, and then just kind of start putting people where they need to be, so they can get the most out of the class. I mean, it's a gym, people come to work out.

Philip Pape 28:02

Yeah, for sure. Yeah, they come to work out and maybe train, like you said, the serious ones are there to train and you get all kinds. So what about you mentioned the youth sports, I want to talk about that for a second. This is a high level baseball team, high school baseball team that you coached. And these are athletes, right? And they're also young, and there's a whole bunch of things that make them different from the general population. skill development, right? With the strength training, with the conditioning with recovery with periodization. So how do you make all that work?

Wil Del Pizzo 28:30

So once again, you got to assess what you got yourself into. So you know, usually freshmen come in, we'll kind of go a little bit like freshmen that come in, you'll get two types of people, ones who have been in the gym before, and ones who have no idea what you're talking about. Right, you know, they have no idea and that's fine. That's not their fault. That's just the way it is.

Philip Pape 28:55

That includes very talented, natural athletes that don't know anything I imagine, right? Right on

Wil Del Pizzo 29:01

the field, you get them in the gym, and they can kind of muscle their way through some things. You know, which is an

Philip Pape 29:06

opportunity for you as a coach right there.

Wil Del Pizzo 29:08

Yes, you go, Okay, here we go. Generally speaking, like they're athletes, so they kind of understand how their hips move. And it's very interesting through high school as they mature. And as they get bigger, how all of a sudden they're so uncoordinated because, you know, they're five, five, and then next year, they're six feet.

Philip Pape 29:28

Center, gravity moves and everything. Everything's moved

Wil Del Pizzo 29:30

on, everything's moved on it. So we go back to we want them to move efficiently. We want them to move safely. That's the most important thing. We want to teach the movement patterns. weight comes and load comes with time. We want to teach the movement patterns. So certainly with that new group that's coming in and like okay, what do we got what's going on? So we do a little bit more basic. Okay, let's work on these squats. Let's work on our push ups. Let's get some pull ups in there. Yeah, we will lift some weights, because there wants to lift some weight, we want to move them safely and as best as we can, and work them through the programming goals and what we're trying to do, because we want them to peak. Obviously, at the right time, we want injury free and all that other stuff. Our main goal in the strength room is to make sure they stay on the field and produce on the field. It doesn't matter what we're doing in the gym, if it doesn't, if it affects their play on the field, what we're doing is wrong. Because that's where they that's where that's where the magic happens on the field, in any sport, right? Doesn't matter is like, Oh, he's out there crushing squats, but his legs are so blast that he can't move on the footprint feels like the what was the point? You know, that's what offseasons for?

Philip Pape 30:47

Yeah, periodization you got it? Hey, right. So

Wil Del Pizzo 30:50

you know, we've worked through different parameters, we'll do kind of a stability phase. You know, making sure if there's a lot of single legged stuff, a lot of balance stuff, getting everything kind of back into the line. And then we'll go through a kind of a strength power phase, right, lifting, lifting weights, just to kind of put some masks on and we're talking about high schoolers. You just got to do what you can to get some mass on him because their metabolism is just hot. And yeah, so anything you do always under eating? Yeah, always under, always under always under drinking, too. It's pretty amazing

Philip Pape 31:23

gallon of milk a day, you give them that diet?

Wil Del Pizzo 31:26

Wow. No work. Yeah, it would work. It would work. So well. We certainly give nutritional advice just to kind of like, eat, you got to eat it, I'll be just happy just to get calories into you. Right. But you know, we coach them up that way. But we try to translate, try to get some weight on and try to get some strength and get some power. So that way it translates into feet on the field. And it doesn't mess him up too much. And it's a give and take. Because you get you get some kids who know everything. And that's fine. And they want to do some wrist curls like Well, why do you want to do wrist curls? Mark McGwire has huge forearms, amazing hit bombs and like well, maybe, you know, so, you know, let's get to the program first. And then let's get then you could do your wrist curls. I'm gonna get through all the program, maybe

Philip Pape 32:21

maybe do the deadlift first and see if that develops your forums. Right.

Wil Del Pizzo 32:24

Right. Well, that and that and that. And that is where you start to see like, where the rubber meets the road. You see where the animals are, you see the guys who are like, I just got by in town. And that's what I'm just gonna do. You see the guys who put the work the guys who put the work in the gym are usually the ones who started go have a long career, right? Athletically be it going to college or into the pros. I'm like that you can see it. The guys who put the work in, they get that extra set. Yep. You know, I mean, like, yeah, they're like, Oh, everybody else got three. You got four? Yeah, yeah, they go hard. They go hard. So we want everybody to move safely. When we get new kids in there, we want to kind of quick assessment. How does everybody move? Okay. And then once again, start piecing people together to kind of see what's going on. And that way I can focus on more tension here. Well, I can go over somewhere else and kind of yell a couple things. And they go, Yeah, I got it. And then keep on going back over to here. It levels out. It'll level out.

Philip Pape 33:29

Yeah, cool. I love learning about this, because I was never into athletics myself, you know, I'm just a spectator sport viewer. And it's good to hit here behind the curtain of the on the training side, because I know a lot of laymen are fans watching, like, you know, want to criticize the strength and conditioning programs. And like you said, there maybe it was a time that that was the case and things have gotten better. Have you? Do you still coach any youth sports or youth groups, maybe as part of your gym?

Wil Del Pizzo 33:56

I do get high school athletes in here, I do have more of a one on one thing. So I will get some high school athletes in here. So I get more than one on one. As opposed to the group. Our group classes are mostly just regular gym goers. And I joke, I joke. We have a lot of food today. It's pulled polar opposites, so we get all the CrossFitters who don't want to CrossFit anymore, but like, who like to lift? Yeah, so they'll come in here because we do a lot of the lifting. Yeah. And we get a lot of people who who went to the big box gyms and just get lost and they want to lift but it's scary. Because it's scary. If you have no idea what's going on, you just see all these the men and women over there lifting weights looking good and all this other stuff. So they just did a lot of people we get just end up like oh, I just end up on the treadmill because that's the only thing I know how to do or like little machines because I can look at the picture and I don't even know if I'm getting anything done. You know, so we get the heavy hitters and we get the people we like to coach up from the ground up. So it's a lot of fun in terms of asked Looks like that we want to make people move safely. That's all we're trying to do.

Philip Pape 35:03

Yeah, I hear you on that. And I mean, I'm a nutrition coach. So but I have all my clients during training, that's like almost a requirement now of working with me. And a lot of them, you know, are women. So I hear that as well. It's definitely a balance between, like, Do you have a home gym? And if not, what gym, you're going to? Do they have the equipment? Are you worried about the culture there? Is that a problem? There's all these factors, you have to, you know, play into it. So, all right. So from one coach to another, I'm always curious about how we best serve and impact our clients. Right. I think that starts by being clear on who you serve, and choosing the right client. And I think that's one area you wanted to kind of touch on is how do you as the coach choose the right client?

Wil Del Pizzo 35:48

Number, why are they looking for something that I provide? You know, I think when we all kind of started in this industry, we tried to be everything to everybody. I could do that. I could do that. I could do that. I could do that, you know, because you're just trying to just try the case. Yeah, just trying to pay some bills. Yeah, you know, take anybody, right? I'll take anybody you throw at me, you know, and he just ended up just getting so burnt out, because you're like, hell, I got everything. I'm all over the board. And some people can do that. That's not me. That's not me. I'm very singular. In my focus. I've gotten a very, very narrow scope. Maybe even to my detriment, but the like I said, I do care. I only do kettlebells. For myself. I actually gave up the barbell, October last year, and I said, You know what, I'm just going to do kettlebells. At least for a year, I'm not going to touch a barbell and they're not touch a dumbbell, I'm just going to do kettlebells. So, it so when you get a new client who comes in you go okay, well, am I going to be the best person? We have multiple trainers here? But are we going to be the best people for this person, because we want to set them up for success. We just don't want to come up here and just take their money and have them leave? You know, that's just not who we are. So am I going to get can I help this person? Right? Is they are they looking for something that I'm providing? Or do they want to I just blew my knee out and I knee rehab, and you're like, Well, I deadlift all day, you know, it's like, you know, I don't do really I don't do rehab. Yeah, you know, it's just you gotta go to a physical therapist for that. So you kind of have to be like, who am I as a trainer? And what do I provide? And will this person benefit from that it's all about the person who's coming in is not about you. So that person benefit from this. And if any of your everybody has red flags, if a couple of your red flags pop up, you need to walk away from that one, whatever your red flags are, everybody has them, whatever your red flags are, you need to go. Okay, like mine's crashed it. I have six weeks to lose 40 pounds, I'm going to a wedding. I'm like, I'm not your person. No. I'm not your person. I'm not going to do it. You can can we do it? Yes. You don't want to do that. And I don't want to be the person to be like, you tell everybody I failed because my trainer didn't XYZ for me and say, yeah,

Philip Pape 38:11

yeah, yeah. And if you think you're gonna convince them, otherwise, after you get started, you're, I think you're wrong on that count, because they're just gonna keep hammering that desire, after they start with you. And like you said, it's gonna be,

Wil Del Pizzo 38:24

it's gonna be a problem. So you got to figure out what your red flags are on what you don't want. Because if you want to, if you wake up in the morning, we've all had those days where you've had two or three clients back to back to back, we're like, Oh, my God, I am going to lose my mind. You know what I mean? Where they just suck the life, the life out of you. And that is not their fault. I learned that's your fault for choosing my fault for choosing them. There is a person out there for you can walk away it is okay. In the long run is much more beneficial for you and for them to turn somebody down. And only take the people that are your ideal clients. It makes you want to work harder, it makes it fun for them to come in. It just checks or checks all the boxes. You know, I will say there's been some times where I've had a couple red flags go up, but the person ended up being fantastic. You know, that's a rarity. But find out what your red flags are. Find out who you are, as a trainer, this is what I do. I'm gonna stay in this lane. Don't deviate, stay in your lane, a just find the people who want specifically that. And then after that, you can widen that lane a little bit, but this is who you are, this is what I do. This is who I am. I'm going to stay there. And I'm not doing anything else. And I will find those people who want it.

Philip Pape 39:45

Yeah, and I totally grew. And I would say it doesn't take long to figure that out. If you're working with clients because I went through the same thing as a nutrition coach was day one had no idea right? So you work with five people and all of a sudden you're already realizing the things that you do. don't want to deal with and it teaches you a lot in the moment. And the key, though, like you said, is to actually say no, because that's not going to just help you, it's gonna help the client, because you're not gonna give them what they want. So why would you? Why would you sign up with them? Great advice just for business in general, right? For anybody trying to find a client? Yeah,

Wil Del Pizzo 40:17

it's just in that's kind of the burden of the industry that we're in, especially if you're in the personal training business, if you're not, you know, if you're doing a lot of one on one stuff, that's, that's your bread and butter, that's tough, because, you know, you're there, you're working your clients, or you're spending all your time trying to get the clients that left to try to fill those spots. It's that feast or famine, you know what I mean? So when you're in a famine, you're just like, I'll take anything that I can get, you know, I just, I need to pay some bills, I gotta put gas in the car and all that other stuff. And that's kind of the cycle that a lot of people get into, on mobile train, who was go to the park? Let's I'll do whatever I have to do, you know? So it's kind of wonder like, who are you? What do you do and stay in that lane and then build from that, it might be a slower process, and it might hurt a little bit. But in the long run, it's going to be so much better? I'd rather have somebody be like, Yo, this person didn't take me he's a jerk as opposed. Like, he took 1000s of dollars from me and didn't get any results.

Philip Pape 41:20

Yeah, but I take all the time. Exactly. That's a

Wil Del Pizzo 41:23

pick one, I'll pick being a jerk for not taking you.

Philip Pape 41:26

You know, that's integrity, some technique at a certain point,

Wil Del Pizzo 41:30

yeah, you know, and once again, I've been wrong, I've been like, I don't know, if this is gonna work out, you go have my bed. More times in Ireland, I know, I shouldn't have done this, you know, I don't do it very much anymore. But in the beginning, you just take what you can get. And so find who you are, stay in your lane, and then find the people to fill in into those little places that you're looking.

Philip Pape 41:52

Right. And I can think of a two is there's non negotiables, like, identify the things you absolutely will never, ever, ever want to deal with. And right there. That's an easy filter. And then, and then maybe you have the list of things that are like lukewarm. You know, like if there's one or two of these lukewarm things that pop up, but everything else is green. That's fine, right? Yes, you can kind of make that list for yourself. Yeah,

Wil Del Pizzo 42:13

it depends on the individual. I hope people have a high tolerance and who would just take the people that nobody wants, and they just see like, I'll take them all, like you are just patients have a saint, you're asking, yeah, they're happy and you're happy, fine, that's fine. But you want to set people up for success, because they're coming to you for results. We're in the result business, this is the result that outcomes, we are in the result business, this is not a lot of those results are scalable results, as if Oh, I weigh less, you know. So if that's you want to be a weight loss person, then be that weight loss person, you know, so you just got to find who you are, and then find the people who want to be in that spot?

Philip Pape 42:59

For sure. That's great advice. Well, I do I want to ask one more question that I like to ask of all guests. And that is what one question Did you wish I had asked? And what's your answer? Can you get

Wil Del Pizzo 43:10

some kettlebells? Ah, no,

Philip Pape 43:14

you sell them right now.

Wil Del Pizzo 43:17

To set myself up. You know, what's the biggest struggle that sometimes we have as trainers, you know, or owning a business? What's the biggest struggle sometimes of owning the business? And how do you navigate those waters? It's it's social media as a big a big thing now until you know, because you get lost you get lost out there you because there's so many, if I have to see another glute shot, I swear, I'm gonna lose my mind the outro

Philip Pape 43:52

the algorithm as soon as you say you like anything fitness related, that's all you see.

Wil Del Pizzo 43:55

Seriously, you like one professional bodybuilding woman, then all of a sudden you see one video and then all of a sudden, like, Why do I have this trophy? This is driving me crazy.

Philip Pape 44:07

My wife's like, what are you looking at over there? I'm like, Look, I just want to show you what I'm like, I'm going to be totally honest. Like, you know, we communicate as this is what happens when I look at just one like guy talking about his strength training program, they show a bunch of women with Bucha

Wil Del Pizzo 44:21

deck algorithm if I have to see another one of those, I'm gonna lose my Cotton Pickin mind. It's ridiculous. But you know, it's, um, you know, only a business's is out here in California has been bit of a challenge over the last couple of years, especially the gym. In Los Angeles, it's combative. To say the least, with with some of the rules and the regulations that we got going on over here.

Philip Pape 44:47

But oh, you mean the government getting up in your stuff? Right. So you're saying

Wil Del Pizzo 44:52

I'm not saying anything, sir. I live in Connecticut.

Philip Pape 44:56

Say things that you wouldn't know I lived here so yeah. My shoulder

Wil Del Pizzo 45:04

this this day in between the screws on that one. But yeah, it's, it's a, it's a challenge out here you kind of kind of have to navigate those waters and and, and you got to be in it, you got to you got to enjoy it, you got to enjoy the business, you gotta join all the little craziness of it. Because it's it can be, you know, like I said earlier, it's it can be feast or famine, it really can be feast or famine, it can be really, really scary time sometimes really, really scary times. And so how do you you know, how do you say mentally tough through it? And how do you stay focused on it? And how do you organize yourself? And how do you get your own training in because I'm in this industry? Because I like to lift heavy weights,

Philip Pape 45:45

right? You know, I helped other people do it, which is great.

Wil Del Pizzo 45:50

I enjoy making people lift heavy weights.

Philip Pape 45:51

Yes, that's more people need to do that everyone listening, you know, hopefully they're inspired to do that. And if they're in your area, they need to look you up. So speaking of that, where can listeners learn more about you and your work?

Wil Del Pizzo 46:05

So you can go to our website at built strong strength.com. All one word has all our information there. It's got all our contact information. We do have downloadable programs. So we do have a kettlebell, specifically a kettlebell program, a big three program. We're just bases around the big three. And we have a mass strength and power program, which is a four month programming of Let's get after it. And let's bend some iron and let's get crazy. So we do have those programs available for you. And then if you're in the Los Angeles, specifically Chatsworth area, you can come by and say hi to us, and we offer a week free and all the other stuff newsletters, so you can sign up for all that stuff on our website, build strong strength.com

Philip Pape 46:48

There you go build strong strength.com. I'll put that in the show notes. People go and find ton of great resources, reach out to you. And I know they learned a ton from watching this. So again, I want to appreciate you for coming on the show. Well,

Wil Del Pizzo 46:59

thanks for having me. I had a great time. Thanks for Thanks for having me on your show. It's a good time. Yeah,

Philip Pape 47:04

awesome. If you've been inspired by today's interview, and are ready to take action and build momentum on your health and fitness journey, just schedule a free 30 minute nutrition momentum call with me using the link in my show notes. I promise not to sell or pitch you on anything, but I will help you gain some perspective and guidance so we can get you on the right track toward looking and feeling your best

Philip Pape 4/25/23 Philip Pape 4/25/23

Ep 64: Testosterone, Hormone Therapy, and Peptides for Health and Longevity with Dr. Rand McClain

Today’s episode is all about hormones, peptides, and innovative treatments with my special guest, Dr. Rand McClain. Dr. Rand reveals the importance of testosterone, its effects on your body, and how to manage them. We also examine menopause vs. MANopause, the diagnosis and treatment of hormonal deficiencies, and questions from our community. Finally, we delve into the science of peptides!

From being the youngest senior account manager in Deloitte’s history, to his stint as a professional kickboxer in Argentina, to being accepted to medical school at age 37 after being repeatedly told it was impossible, Dr. Rand has never been a fan of the “status quo”.

Dr. Rand’s patients (many of which are A-List celebrities and world-class athletes) come to his practice in search of the innovative treatments he specializes in. From the latest in stem cell and hormone therapies, to IV drips that reduce trauma and anxiety, to human performance health programs and futuristic longevity treatments, Dr. Rand believes that your past health mistakes don’t define your future.
__________
Book a FREE 30-minute call with Philip here.
__________

Today you’ll learn all about:

[2:12] Proving doubters wrong to attend med school in your late 30s
[6:42] Unveiling the message behind the book Cheating Death
[8:24] Emotional support in hormone-related challenges
[12:16] Dr. Rand's health and fitness routine
[15:40] Importance of testosterone and signs of low levels
[17:52] Comparing menopause and MANopause
[19:44] The decline or the early onset of the decline of hormones
[21:35] Effects of testosterone on fitness goals
[26:00] Diagnosis and treatment of hormonal deficiencies and common misconceptions about HRT
[29:20] Peptides versus steroids, hormones, and other drugs
[34:36] Hormone creams and their benefits for receptors
[37:42] Recommended supplement combinations
[42:30] Natural methods for hormone control
[46:50] Explaining peptides and their roles in the body
[50:50] Practical use of peptides in treatment
[55:46] Genetic testing in hormone therapy
[59:02] Exciting future advancements in medicine
[1:05:55] How to connect with Dr. Rand

Episode resources:

👩‍💻 Schedule your FREE 30-minute Nutrition Momentum Call with Philip here.

🫙 Get high-quality 1st Phorm supplements here

💪 Want to upgrade and optimize your body? Learn about 1-on-1 coaching here

👉 Want to send Philip a message or question about lifting or nutrition?

IG: @witsandweights
Email: philip@witsandweights.com

🥩 Download your Free Ultimate Macros Guide and 50 High-Protein Recipes here

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Transcript

Dr. Rand McClain 00:00

There's at least a correlation between low testosterone and things like coronary artery disease. Type Two Diabetes, colon cancer in men prostate cancer, osteoporosis, so there's reason to consider replacing some or most even all these hormones.

Philip Pape 00:21

Dr. Rand McClain 02:39

Well, there are pluses and minuses as there usually are right in situations like this.

Dr. Rand McClain 02:45

Focusing on the positive, I think I had a very different I know I had a very different perspective going through it 37 First of all, I wanted to do it. I didn't do it because My great grandpa the way down to my PA did it. And I didn't do it because I thought there was lots of money in it. Because there isn't. I didn't do it because of anything. But I really had a passion for it. And I actually the truth of it. As I was traveling across country, I found out I was gonna be a dad. And I said, you know, I gotta settle into something for good here and not just bop around. This is actually my ninth career if you want to just talk about careers, not other odd jobs. So that helped out a lot and then being 37 years old. And eventually, you know, by the time I got to see patients a little bit older, I had been around the block a few times myself with injuries and illnesses and whatnot. And that helps, I believe, tease out some of the things where you Okay, that's great, but I'm never going to really like

Dr. Rand McClain 03:44

it reminds me of a joke. You know, what do they call the doctor with the lowest passing score on the entrance exam?

Philip Pape 03:52

Documents? I don't touch that one. What is it is still a doctor doctor,

Dr. Rand McClain 03:56

like me last time I go through this. It helped me pare down the things that weren't so important. I knew I was never going to be a dermatologist. I had no interest in dermatology. And so I remember getting mad when I scored. This can sound like I'm bragging but it really was not I got a 95 on the exam. And I remember thinking Gosh, darn, I screwed up because I over studied, you know. So the point being that the optimistic side of this is when you get down the road like that you learn to prioritize and adopt perspectives differently. You know, who cares, we get an A or B and dermatology if you never want to be a dermatologist, you know, it allowed me to focus on the things I really enjoy. And I knew I wanted to pursue and I think that was an advantage also. We all deal differently with people when we're 20 than when we're 30 and 40 and whatnot. Of that a lot just going through like internship, you know, dealing with patients definitely and having been a patient that gives you a leg up now. The native part of all that is 37 You're supposed to be doing pretty well financially. And, you know, you should have a lot of other things going on, I ended up going through this as a single dad at one point. I spent the nights in my van, you know, up at school and whatnot. And that part of it was not so fun, although again, you know, being a little bit older, it's gonna sound trite maybe, but it is absolutely true. I can remember, I finally did, I was able to afford a place which is actually just a couple blocks down from where I am in my office now. They used to be Marine Corps officers, barracks, just one room deals. And I remember sitting out there and an afternoon and you know, having a hibachi grill, you know, cheapo things, even in the CVS now. And it was cooking up some hot dogs and some baked beans. And a lot of people will work hard roughing it high. And I were thinking, you know, I'm really not, I'm in California, the sun's out, and I like hot dogs and bait. This isn't so bad. And of course, you know, the take home as we get this gonna sound, whatever corny, but you know, following your dream that makes a lot of other things not so bad. And that's what I was doing. So, yeah, I had some good experiences, and some not so good. But it all worked out.

Philip Pape 06:13

Yeah, you know, that really resonates with me with the later in life that people asked me, for example, as a nutrition coach, how could I be a good client when I didn't start this? Or a good coach? And I didn't start this in my 20s. I said, Well, you know, I've dealt with so many people, both as a father and as manager in the engineering world that those skills translate, and you've got this unique perspective that no other person in med school with you at the time had, that I'm sure translates to this day as you work with your patients. At nine careers well, so you talked about the surgeries that you had, or the personal experience you had gone through. And I think you you talked about that in your book as well and cheating death, if I could just quote it real quick, because I did get an early copy was able to peruse that you said you're quote, alive and well, both because of great doctors and surgeons, and because you've been open to a wide range of treatments. And I think your message about healthspan is partly about having options, maybe options beyond what people think are there, right. And I've seen people fail my clients, I've seen people fail my very close family members time and again over the years, because there's this myopic view, I feel that most traditional doctors have, and they have to go out and find other treatments, alternative therapies, hormone treatments, specialist coaches, et cetera. What are your thoughts on all of that?

Dr. Rand McClain 07:26

Well, I think the point I'm trying to make in the book, or what he attends to the book, anyway, is to get the word out that there are other avenues. And what most people think, even if you're pretty much in touch with medicine, if you're not a doctor, or you're not reading the the journals every day, you're gonna get behind. And even doctors get behind because we are very specialized in what we practice, typically. And that's just a matter of, we have so much information that we have to gather and learn. And then we have to be proficient in that area. We always talk about, you know, the gatekeepers of primary care providers being the ones that sort of collect all this together, I can't think of a better way to do it. You can try and be, well, you should always be your best health advocate. But unless you've been trained in medicine, trying to do that over, someone has already been trained in medicine, to play that same role is going to be harder to do. That mean, you can't do it. But

Philip Pape 08:26

just to clarify, you're talking about the scenario where you go to the doctor, and they kind of have that holier than now era about them. And you are the kind of the dumb person doing the internet research. And I'm just I'm very much simplifying, but these are real people's kind of thoughts about this subject. And you know, even when I talk to my family about is that that's kind of where you're going with this.

Dr. Rand McClain 08:46

Well, I you know, I can make a joke either you being redundant when you say, you know, God like and Dr. Ish, I mean, that's the old school way, the very paternalistic way that, but it's still pervasive, obviously, because we speak a different language. Although that's changing man. One of the things is a good offshoot of the biohacking. Although, you know, there's a lot of negative consequences. We've seen certainly a lot of possibilities, where you can go wrong, but people are getting interested in doing a lot of learning on their own. And, again, that comes with pros and cons. Dr. Google was not always your best source, but it's changing the environment. So patients are a lot better educated, they have a lot more information. So it makes it easier for a patient to push a doctor who might be gaslighting them, or, you know, playing that, that God thing, because you can't make chokers. But, ya know, that's the point I'm trying to make. And really, the whole idea of the book, again, is to let patients without sounding like I'm a jerk. Doctors also know it because I don't I don't think I'm sounding like a jerk when I because I preface it by saying, you know, our profession is such that we're specialized. Why would an expert in skin cancers, let's say know anything of out. I don't know, when he's to reduce blood sugar rice we learned in internship. So I don't mean it that way that might have sounded. But you know, the idea is to get the word out. So kind of everybody can be the gatekeeper and least have a little bit of knowledge about Oh, when I see this, I'd like to focus on this necessarily only. That is my job. That's my specialty. But oh, by the way, you might want to see a rheumatologist about this or whatever. And also, the other point that I think you're asking me to dress is, because it's changing so fast, I make the point in the book that I missed out on a lot of treatments, because I figured, oh, you know, to use the spines example, I mean, they're gonna have to get this fused, or I'm going to put the equivalent of a door hinge in there, and that's not going to work for me. So I'm just gonna cut it out for as long as I can. 33 years later, they got so bad that, you know, the guy pretty much told me Well, first of all, the MRI, doctor, radiologist chased me out in the parking lot, said, Hey, man, do you realize what's going on here? And then the surgeon said, basically, I should I need to do this yesterday. So I don't want people to get to that point. Because then you you've limited your options as I did mine. And so if I can get the word out that, hey, we have this option, this option, this option? And you mentioned futuristic treatments. Yeah, they sound futuristic to most of us, but they're here

Philip Pape 11:18

to catch up. Yeah,

Dr. Rand McClain 11:21

what I want to get across, so manage our health and do it and, you know, with all the options we have possible,

Philip Pape 11:27

right? Yeah. And part of what you said there was, you know, not every doctor is not every doctor that comes from the same place. And there are definitely some better than others that are some that stay with stay up with the research versus others. I used to have a primary care doctor years ago, and I know people like to, you know, don't talk down about primary care physicians who, who taught and studied and he was always opened every time I brought something up. Oh, you know, let's explore that together. And I love the doctor like that. And what was the other thing you mentioned there that I'm kind of losing track of here. The Oh, the how things change over time, right, like laparoscopic surgeries and things like that. I had two surgeries two months apart. A couple of years ago, one for micro diskectomy and one for an appendectomy. Both laparoscopic I can't imagine having done both of those surgeries. I don't know 3040 years ago at all let alone two months apart. I wanted to just last personal question that we can get into maybe the listener wants to hear all about the hormone stuff. What is your personal daily routine look like when it comes to your lifting your nutrition your wellness?

Dr. Rand McClain 12:28

Well, I'm what they call it morning Lark right in terms of prototype. So if I don't get it done early, you didn't get it done typically. So I start today with breakfast. Mine is pretty much bacon eggs and toast. If it's a special occasion, my wife will make pancakes instead of toast. usually put a little almond butter or something on there. But then I get into my workout which will be either weights. I'm getting ready for my next surgeries. I've got to get to New shoulders. And I mean that people say What do you mean, you're training for your surgery? Yes, I'm getting in shape for surgery because you only come out of surgery in the same fitness or less right by a day because you're training data then you go in. So I've been hitting the weights a little bit more, but I love bike riding. I still love I don't like it in the ring anymore because of my spine. But I love you know, training as though I were a boxer. So I hit the heavy bag, I get my morning workout in. And that's usually anywhere from as little as an hour from doing below to max stuff or, you know, can be as long as three hours. And I post all my workouts on Garmin Connect so that I can share that with really anybody and you know, in a way we're all in this together, why not keep it ourselves, then all hell see patients on certain days, I'll have my lunch. Really after that it gets boring. I mean, for most of the listeners, actually they might be bored with the first part. But after that, I feel like when I once I get the workout in, which I believe and I think I hope I make this point the book exercise is what I call the great equalizer. I've done them not the most I can but one of the best things if not the best thing I can from my healthspan and gotten that out of the way and from there it's gravy. So and then I look at you know, I see patients I got a few other businesses that are related to medicine I work on certain days and then I'm out usually before I make it upstairs, you know. And much to my wife's chagrin because she likes watching shows and stuff and she's actually a night owl not that you have to hear any of this stuff but

Philip Pape 14:29

these are all fair points because people relate to like routine

Dr. Rand McClain 14:35

but you know I say it's boring I love it if I didn't get my workouts and some good food and good company and that sort of thing and then get my job done which I'm blessed because I get to see patients and I love what I do. I don't I know I I don't see sick people. So that makes my job a lot easier. I have already found I take it too much to heart when I see somebody really really ill and there's no limits as to what you can do when someone's taking 26 meds and got, you know, three or four comorbidities? I'm just not cut out for that. But yeah, and, you know, we live here and in Southern Cal can't complain except for the taxes.

Philip Pape 15:10

Right? Oh, I'm in Connecticut so I can complain about the weather and the taxes. Not here. All right. All right, cool. You know, it's good for people to know this. I mean, you do lift and you you stay active and eat eggs and bacon and all that great stuff. And like you said, like, you alluded to fitness and movement exercise is 8080 90% of the equation. And if you're not doing that, first, maybe these other other treatments are the next step after you get those things dialed in. So speaking of some of these treatments, let's let's start big picture. Testosterone, something men and women are interested in. Why is it important? Let's just Let's just start there. Big picture, why is important? And then what are the signs of low testosterone?

Dr. Rand McClain 15:55

Well, I always joke, and it dates me with those who are of similar generation that, you know, it almost sounds like we're trying to make it out like that Saturn lives kits for shimmer. It's a floor wax, no, it's a desert topping. But in some senses, it really is that important testosterone anyway for males and females, because it's responsible for so many things that leverages your energy, your sense of well being your libido, your your body composition. And, you know, tell me there's not at least one of those that everyone's interested in, right, and I named a few of them. So that starts to diminish the production of it in our bodies, somewhere around age 35. Whether it's referred to as menopause or andropause, that's when it happens in men and ditto for for females. You know, perimenopause, actually, the way we put her Perry enterprise, and it's noticeable. Some people do better with it than others. We've all met the guy or the gal that is bouncing off the walls with energy, right? And that's not their problem, no matter what happens, they can be 90 and have low testosterone, their bounce off walls, but that's personality based. But the dead giveaway that he has a energy libido sense of well, being that good mood that's driven by personality, certainly a body composition. And you said Well, yeah, that's also you know, genetically based, okay, given that too, but that's where people who otherwise are doing well come in and see anything, okay. I'm doing everything. And it's a lot of times it's the professional athletes, right? They're like, they're the last ones because they know the tricks. They go, Okay, well, I pulled this out of my ad, I pulled this out of Max, I know,

Philip Pape 17:34

the training the nutrition, everything. Yeah, they keep tweaking

Dr. Rand McClain 17:37

and keep tweaking and then finally, okay, I'm done with this, man, you gotta help me, I pulled everything out. And it's just too much work, or it's, I'm not getting there anymore. And so I see tend to see them later in life than, say, the the so called average person. But yeah, testosterone is important for for all the above. And then you know, for females only, although having too high or too low estrogen affects males too, but more directly because of the body parts. And the way women are designed to use those body parts. estrogen deficiency can affect women, pretty significantly, can cause a deficiency cause anxiety and palpitations, the classic night sweats and hot flashes, and eventually, vaginal dryness. So you know, there's a lot of reasons to look at hormones, the less sexy ones DHEA, progesterone pregnenolone, those are important too. And they all start to drop off is this cascade of hormones that starts with cholesterol. They're called the steroid hormones for the word cholesteryl. And they're all steroids, not anabolic steroids, which is where the confusion comes in. I think. By the way, it includes vitamin D people, I think, are realizing that more and more again, the biohackers and people that are paying attention. We named it in the late 1800s, I believe. And we thought it was a vitamin. No, it says steroids. But these are all important, and why not replenish them, replace them. If we can, we cannot get the body at a certain point anyway, to make them again on their own. So fortunately, we have the ability to replace them. And it's been a game changer. You know, death and taxes and deficiency of hormones is eventual we can we can fix at least one of those two of those we were working on at least in terms of state taxes. Right. And I think we talked about that on the show. But yeah, it's definitely something that is a game changer. And that's why I think I have a great job because I see a lot of happy faces.

Philip Pape 19:42

Yeah, I imagine. And what I've always wondered, though, is like, first of all, has it has any Has anything changed in the last 50 to 100 years that causes the decline in some of these hormones to occur more frequently or earlier? That's the first question and or is this just a natural state because we live such long lives, and it happens to just about everybody. In other words, there's nothing wrong with you, per se as this is just going to happen.

Dr. Rand McClain 20:06

It's both great question because, yeah, typically it happens to all of us like I was applying with the other debt taxes. And lo one day when did you know if you live long enough, you got to notice it correct. 300 years ago, life expectancy was depending upon what, you know, estimate you read 30 to 35 years old, on average, what do you worry about, you know, adding, you know, moving melanoma is probably not going to be unless either you can stay out in the sun as much as you want, you're not going to get wrinkles or malignant melanoma. So they were enjoying it, there was no sunscreen back then they weren't worried about it. But yeah, we're living longer. So we're going to experience those things now. But also, the way we live just going back not 1000s years, just again, that 300 year span there. You know, three years ago, were herding sheep. Every once in a while a wolf might come in, you know, and you got to get your dander up, so to speak, or an opposing tribe, which is more of an issue, maybe. But you didn't have the chronic stress, you didn't have the necessity of cortisol manufacture, and it flowed around your bloodstream, which hammers you. And that affects pretty much most chronic cortisol release pretty much is a detriment to everything we got going for us. And that is a cause of earlier rather than normal or later, whatever you want to call it. hormone deficiency.

Philip Pape 21:25

Yeah, I'm glad. I'm glad you mentioned that. Because covering the gamut between the reproductive hormones, and then cortisol, and I think you mentioned thyroid, they're also critical. So what what would you say to the statement, you know, if you can get your diet, nutrition and lifestyle diet dialed in, you probably won't need hormone replacement. Is that is that a false statement? For most people?

Dr. Rand McClain 21:46

Depends on how long you live, you live long enough, you're probably going to be better off on hormone replacement for two reasons. One, even if you're not suffering, okay, meaning, okay? The testosterone drops, and she has less libido, but she's also to the worse, let's say, I've never met someone she wants to stay with. Who cares? You know, no, one's bugging her. She doesn't have the libido because the level below and in every other area, she's fine, you could argue, okay, because we treat people and not numbers, don't worry about it, then she could live a full life and but we've connected more dots than that. And we can say even if you're doing well, meaning you're not complaining and you're happy with it, there's at least a correlation between low testosterone and things like coronary artery disease, type two diabetes, colon cancer in men, prostate cancer, osteoporosis. So there's reason to consider replacing some or most even all these hormones. And I'm talking about the steroid hormones. Now, you mentioned thyroid, that's a whole nother as a protein based tournaments. Okay. But even so, the idea that you treat people, not numbers, there's some times where you might want to treat it just because it's low, because it's going to be better for your health span. Anyway, it tees you up for a longer, healthier life, with emphasis on the healthier part, rather than being short, caught by surprise, or caught too late. Okay. Yeah,

Philip Pape 23:24

I think it's a good way to look at it. And I don't know if this is an apt analogy, but that's kind of how I feel about strength, and building muscles that, you know, you could be 30 and feel like you're, you're fine and capable. But if you don't build that muscle mass as a matter, of course, it's gonna catch up to you, you're gonna get weaker, more frail, and then it's gonna lead to all sorts of health issues as well. I mean, I think there's, there's multiple things in life like that in the area of wellness that the more proactive you can be, which is harder when you're not dealing with an issue or when the industry is telling you Well, you've there's nothing wrong, so don't worry about it, go to a doctor, you need something fixed, right when something's gone wrong. So I think that's a good message. Doctor rent

Dr. Rand McClain 24:03

was a couple of things you did there that statement. One is that, again, if you're muddling through with less and less muscle mass, and implied in there is that you're going to have less and less strength to then okay, that's fine, if that's what you feel, but you're definitely not the same as you were when you were 30 and 60. And just because you're saying, Well, I'm okay with it doesn't mean it's okay. In the sense of, you know, measuring your physiology, you know, apples and apples. And so, you know, you're definitely, for example, more likely to suffer from osteoporosis or there's a huge correlation between muscle strength, muscle mass, and of course, VO two max. So there's no debate about that anymore. So you're definitely cutting yourself off at the ankles at least or the knees. You know, if you don't State stick with it and you do have to stick with it. That's the point. There is sort of a cat by the tail there that's necessary. Just like we have to eat and breathe and a lot of us. And then there's another thing you were starting to harp on there that, you know, I like to hopefully make people laugh, but I'm serious when I say it, you know, normal. Okay, yeah, I feel like, you know, this is the way my father, my mother lived, whatever, 60 or 80. It's normal, and I accept these things. Okay, well, that's your prerogative. Okay. I'm a registered libertarian. I wouldn't argue with you in that sense. But it's normal to get sick and die one day. So who cares about pursuing normal? For the sake of normal anyway?

Philip Pape 25:39

Yeah. Yeah, it seems like it seems like the best things in life are both hard to achieve, and also make you an outlier. And that's those are the things we want to pursue. I don't know if you agree with that statement. But and once you once you put in that effort upfront, it actually makes everything else easier down the road, whether it's treating your hormones, you know, getting stronger, or whatever else. So speaking of the diagnosis and treatment, I'm actually curious on the diagnosis part, because now that we've the context is, you may not have any issues, right? You may not even have symptoms, but it's still good to treat it. How do you diagnose it from that in that context, and then we can get into treatment as well?

Dr. Rand McClain 26:17

Well, great, great question, because yeah, takes it a step further. So So you have a patient, let's say who's a sick a 55 year old female. And I pick that because with osteoporosis, a female's just statistically more likely to have osteoporosis than a male. Okay. She's happy as Clint has no complaints, except she's got osteoporosis. Well, you can draw ABS you can see Oh, my goodness, she's not only low in testosterone, but she's also low in estrogen. Even if she didn't have any complaints about estrogen deficiency. A lot of females sort of dodged the menopause bullet to a large degree, but she's also diagnosed with osteopenia or worse osteoporosis. You can take some Fosamax even add a bunch of calcium to your diet, and therefore suffer from constipation, I would argue, add vitamin D if you're not on it already, and see if that helps. Of course, weight bearing exercises, always very important to stave that off, but I've seen many time where you've got someone who's active, she's 55 year old female, and, you know, unless she wants to pick up Olympic lifting or powerlifting, she's doing plenty of weight bearing exercise, but she's still suffering from this well, you can add estrogen and or testosterone and help with that diagnosis. Now, again, there's not a direct correlation between symptom and treatment in terms of what's classic, but a lot of times it is a lack in the sex hormones, the steroid hormones, that leads to or certainly contributes to osteopenia or osteoporosis. Does that make sense? It does. Yeah,

Philip Pape 27:55

yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And even worse, is when someone does have symptoms, and then and then the kind of conventional medicine says that there are no options that can be very frustrating for people as well.

Dr. Rand McClain 28:09

And that's really why motivated me because I am sick of hearing that, of course, personally. But I see it in patients that are told something from another physician. And come on, you know, if you're passionate about what you do, whether you're a doctor or a trainer or someone where you're trying to help somebody with with their health, and you hear something from another practitioner, that's just completely completely bogus. It kind of chaps your rear end, and then I mean, be honest. And so you know, I Okay, I gotta get this out there to to counter that, at least, if not straighten it out. So yeah, you know, there's somebody see all the time. And it's really discouraging, obviously, to the patient, but as a physician to me, too, because you see someone who really, really wants to do something, wants to get better, and they're getting advice. That's just again, completely bogus. It's very frustrating for a lot of parties, right?

Philip Pape 29:08

Yeah, and even just as a human being just in any pursuit, someone who just has that either apathy or dismissiveness, if you will, and I'm sure there's a lot of factors behind it. But we don't have to get into that part. Let's get into the solving problems for people, which is what you do. And we talked about being treated for hormones could be a good thing to pursue, regardless of maybe all the symptoms. How do you treat those hormonal deficiencies, and I want to get into, of course by bioidentical hormone replacement therapy, traditional therapy kind of comparing those and then common myths, misconceptions, one of which, of course, is oh, it's going to cause cancer. We know that people still think that's I want to understand your perspective.

Dr. Rand McClain 29:45

Well, well, that's a broad question.

Philip Pape 29:50

compound question.

Dr. Rand McClain 29:52

Fair enough. It depends upon the hormone of course, that we're talking about this deficient or in some cases, excess And we deal with them all differently. I alluded earlier to the fact that there's a difference between I call fat based or cholesterol based hormones and protein or peptide based hormones. You know, you got the thyroid growth hormone, other peptides, insulin. Those are the protein based or peptide hormones. And then you've got the steroid hormones we already mentioned. And they work differently, that's for certain. And testosterone, I will say is unique in that, unlike, say, thyroid, where you're looking for a sweet spot, you don't want it to be too high or too low with testosterone, more or less, you're looking for a minimum threshold at which you want to remain or stay above. You don't want to go miles above that, or anything like that. But the emphasis is on don't drop below that because you will become subtherapeutic. Okay. And there are some linearity once you become therapeutic, until you go to there's such a thing as too high there is. But but just again, there's differences in the way you treat hormones, depending upon which ones we're talking about.

Philip Pape 31:08

Let's say DHEA, right, for example, just to throw it out of the hat I've seen, you know, over the counter stuff is, you know, sold in five milligrams, 30 milligrams. So there's obviously a dosing difference. How do you How would you help somebody? Treat DHEA?

Dr. Rand McClain 31:21

That's a great question. Let's use DHEA. One, so there's an old rule of thumb that for each year, on the planet, you use one milligram of DHA. I don't know where that comes from. But the problem was sillies hormones and DHA is a great examples. You've got this hormone that you want to do certain things. And by the way, it has certain other effects because of its ability, the body's ability to interconvert depending upon what's necessary. Okay, what

Philip Pape 31:52

testosterone in this case, yeah, what what's as testosterone in that cascade?

Dr. Rand McClain 31:57

Yeah, yeah, testosterone is further down. But there's kind of like, it's like a little triangle circle, whatever you call it, you know, work and go down the corticosteroid Riah route. Order can go down what we call the sex hormone route, because it includes testosterone and estrogen. And there's a lot of other androgens that we don't talk about that are, you know, intermediates, but also have effects in and of themselves, that can be converted from DHEA. So I always use the Quick example, you know, do you want to go from LA to San Francisco via New York? Or do you want to take the straight shot, but in the old days, as they say, the old days, a lot of times, particularly with women who were suffering from lack of energy will be there and what a doctor would prescribe progesterone in the hopes that it would convert to the necessary tests from and or estrogen if needed. And this is really we're talking about mainly OBGYN is because they were used to using progesterone and estrogen to treat the Oregon the uterus. Okay, so they're already comfortable with that as Oh, okay. Well, we'll treat it with pedestrian. I'm going way off in a tangent, sorry. But back to DHEA. Yeah. And, you know, this, this delves into why we're classifying DHEA as an over the counter supplement, but testosterone not got me. Because you can do a lot of things the wrong way with DHEA. For example, as you point out, it can give birth to a lot of different things down the line, testosterone being one, but also estrogen, which may not be appropriate for a male. And so you kind of roll the dice there with each individual, because they may convert it differently than another individual apropos to DHEA. I like to supplement with one of the three metabolites, seven keto DHEA, which isn't normally assay. But that will not typically convert to a hormone you're not looking to use. So you can if you really want DHEA in the system, plugin with seven keto rather than DHEA, which can either remain in the serum or convert to DHEA sulfate. But those can run into trouble that you don't know by converting things you don't necessarily want. giving away too much information. No, no, no, I

Philip Pape 34:13

can nerd out on this stuff for hours. And I think maybe a lot of the listeners to do that's the cool thing about podcasts, right was we can't get into the stuff. But that's something I learned right there is, you know, like you said, there's downstream effects. So to be more targeted, right and work with people who understand this stuff like you and, and others like you that that can help you, you know, target the treatment. So you mentioned creams, right like estrogen, progesterone, I mean, there's testosterone creams, there's all those. I actually have a question from one of our community members, Christine, why she was wondering if you should stop all the creams once a month to help the receptors I guess help the receptors recover and avoid getting over sensitized or desensitized?

Dr. Rand McClain 34:53

Yeah, that's a great question. And I hear that when often I don't know where that came from. But the idea that You're going to desensitize the receptors, I think maybe stems from the idea that you can actually down regulate some of the receptors. And it's really more of a result of reversing an upregulation. So when you're shorting hormones is The fascinating part of the body, right? Your body's not making enough keys for the locks says, We're gonna make more locks for the same keys. Brilliant, right? And then all of a sudden, you use replacement therapy, you got plenty of keys, advice, okay, whoa, we don't need this much. And so downregulate some of those locks the receptors in this case, and, you know, there's some downregulation, we understand when you overdo it, if your normal, so to speak, like someone who's 25 years old, and decides he wants to cheat the system, whether it be bodybuilding or whatever. There can be some downregulation there, but for someone who's using testosterone replacement therapy, the key being it's to replace what's no longer being produced, right, naturally, then, yeah, the idea of coming off to upregulate, the receptors doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me, because while you may get some benefit in terms of the way you feel, because Oh, wow, you've upregulated them, because you're short for a while, again, it's temporary. And you're robbing Peter to pay Paul right? Here that?

Philip Pape 36:27

No, that's good. That's good. To clarify, it actually sounds a lot like the same, that same kind of downregulation that occurs during metabolic adaptation when you're dieting where the idea is that you're damaging your metabolism, which is not true, because as soon as you go back and feed yourself, it recovers. So the body's resilient is what you're saying. It's good for people to know this and not get scared off from some of these maybe misconceptions. Okay, so let's, because well, I know we got started a little late. But let's let's I want to talk about peptides. Right? Because those

Dr. Rand McClain 36:57

are, yeah, those are the that's coming from the audience, right? Your people, they have the sort of, I guess we call it one offs that, you know, we may not think about it, because it's kind of not mainstream. But yeah, that's a common question, actually. And so just the bottom line it no do not go on and off. It's not

Philip Pape 37:18

while you need it. And there you go. Hey, this is Philip. And I hope you're enjoying this episode of Wits, & Weights. If you're finding value in the content, and want to stay up to date with all our latest episodes, be sure to hit the Follow button on your favorite podcast platform. By following you'll get notified whenever a new episode comes out. And you won't miss out on knowledge and strategies to level up your health and fitness. All right, let's get back to the episode. Actually, there was another question from another, a different Christina. She's asking if there's a there's a combination of supplementation with adaptogens vitamins or herbs, you would recommend in any scenario, kind of a high level question. I know

Dr. Rand McClain 37:58

what if I'm reading or I'm hearing that right? She's referring to what I refer to in Chinese medicine terms as what would be called a superior herb. One that's not used to treat a condition but as something you could use all the time, because just makes you better. And saying is is one that people will suddenly can take, you know, unless you get sick, but generally speaking, it's good for you, right? Yeah, is there one out there? I'm not big on formulations, even though Chinese medicines loaded with them. You have some of those ancient formulations and I'm, I'm too far removed from it. Now to be able to recall some that I'd say oh, yeah, this is a brilliant one, keep keep doing it. There are some evolved. Use of Hirscher, whoo, which is generally speaking one of those that's going to only be good for you, it restores what they call kidney, again, if I recall correctly, which really kind of boils down to hormonal balance. But in terms of what she's asking, you know, I'd rather take an adaptogen, Siberian Ginseng, and combine it with whatever vitam I'm looking for, you know, I think I'm sure. And maybe

Philip Pape 39:07

I got it, which is consistent with you were saying before, it's like don't just throw everything at it go after the what you need. What about ashwagandha? I want to ask you about that. What are your thoughts on that

Dr. Rand McClain 39:17

is? Well, the question I get often is, is that going to be a substitute for testosterone replacement therapy?

Philip Pape 39:24

No, well, I'll be specific, right? Because I understand in the lifting world, it's being looked at as a performance enhancer, and then also in kind of the hormone support world for things like mood and anxiety.

Dr. Rand McClain 39:36

Very individualized. And I would call it you know, speaking Chinese medicine, which deals more subtleties. The result would be more subtle. It wouldn't be something I'd say oh, forget about it. But I think that you might find a lot of times when you're supplementing. You're replacing what's missing, and that's why like I use the example of vitamin beach. Well, if so, One back in my day was we didn't have vegans, but they were called vegetarians. Right. And so they weren't getting up each well. And they did some beach 12 Oh my goodness, they were elated. They were the you know, they were nuts about V 12. And they would go preaching about right. Well, as a carnivore, omnivore at the beach, I was like, what is all the fuss about? Right? Because I wasn't short in it. And so that's I think, where you see a lot of individual differences when people try sublet. Oh, my God, you got to try this work right for me. Okay, well, so I'm not downplaying ashwagandha at all, to go supplement, but if you need it, great, very few that are going to put you to the next level. Or, you know, taking the next level a better way to put I guess, if you're already makes sense. That makes sense.

Philip Pape 40:42

Yeah, you're already saturated with it, or whatever you want to say you have you have what you need. Like as examples, immune

Dr. Rand McClain 40:47

boosters, right? Really what's happening is you're bringing your immune system back to its regular state that you've been somehow diminishing by staying up too late or drinking too much or whatever. So so that's an classic example. So when you hear that kind of stuff, it's an immune boosting supplement. I would use some skepticism to doing that. But I think we're gonna find more and more we'll be able to, at least in the short term, tweaked some of those. By more just stimulating it better still, though, by stimulating it back to its normal, better state. rapamycin is a perfect example of something like that, where in general where we're stimulating autophagy my sense of drug I'm sorry, I just took a huge turn tack. I've heard that Yeah. rapamycin is a anti rejection drug. Okay, they use it to kidney transplants right? In higher dose and more regularly. Well, we found now that at least in the animal studies, and all looks good for humans, that if you use a smaller dose and punctuate the week, with just one time, it's enough to stimulate this process of cleaning up the mess, as it were, you know, autophagy is where we level clean up the mess that's been created, reorganize things, you know, I call it you know, wipe the spaghetti sauce off the recipe book. So you can actually read the recipe, reorganize the DNA, right? So that cell can operate properly. Well, that's really the idea here is that you're just getting the immune system to operate as best again, by sort of just a little nudge if you were very broad and very general, but but the idea is the same.

Philip Pape 42:30

Yeah, no, I love that. And me, I'm sure you can examine that in the context of vitamins and minerals and other nutrient deficiencies and all that where, again, if you need it and you take it, it is going to be kind of like a miracle that people will take start taking magnesium and their migraines go away and they sleep better and all these just because they were deficient in that one nutrient. Doesn't make it fun. Because we it it doesn't make it fun. It's just

Dr. Rand McClain 42:51

knowing about is worth a try. It's a solution. Yes, my knees. It's not gonna hurt you. I mean, really? Yeah. I might just because Maggie's was pretty. It's top three in my experience of being low. When we when we check. But you give intravenously to a woman who's in labor and you're trying to quell those contractions. Every 15 minutes, we give six grams intravenously. That's the equivalent of oral 60 grams, okay? But every 15 minutes,

Philip Pape 43:25

now, that's a huge amount versus two versus a pill, which is like a half a gram. Yeah.

Dr. Rand McClain 43:29

Right. But if you have to go on for a couple days, you might have a problem. But imagine trying to do that orally, you can't overdose on hankies.

Philip Pape 43:34

Right, right.

Dr. Rand McClain 43:38

Very, very, very loose stools, right and maybe they you know, because of that you can get dehydrated and stuff, but you get my point that these are they're not innocuous, but they're very hard to make a mistake with so it makes it easy for us to knowing that Oh, wow. That might you know, we studied I know that'd be a cure for my migraines, you know, some electrolyte imbalances there. Gosh, and what are the the other upsides because you're so sure maybe didn't fix your migraines but is going to help you know relaxes smooth muscle vasculature so you get more blood flow to the muscles help relax a little bit keep you a little looser. Nothing wrong with getting more blood flow to the muscles right only good thing so that's what's exciting to me on a very basic level with what we know now in medicine what we can do with it.

Philip Pape 44:23

For sure, yeah, and you mentioned skepticism earlier skepticism and experimentation, they all kind of go hand in hand and that's that's what we're all about hear so you're you're inspiring me to to keep keep digging in and making sure I've got all my bases covered. In fact, I think I started taking more vitamin D again, I had gotten off off track there along and I was reading through your book and reminded I should probably should up here in the Northeast during the winter.

Dr. Rand McClain 44:46

Not always had mentioned in the book. But going back to that example about you know, three years hence. If you are going to be dead typically on average by the time you're 3035 you weren't worried concerned About the sun vitamin, right, getting your vitamin D from the sun because you're going to be long gone before you had a chance to develop malignant melanoma, which can kill you. Nowadays we're living a lot longer. So that is a risk trust me because I you know, I last time I had 36 of these puppies that had to be removed, right?

Philip Pape 45:17

You got a nice tan I'm imagine it

Dr. Rand McClain 45:20

moved to California, and I didn't take care. We didn't know any better. And honestly, even when we did, I didn't do what I was supposed to do my fare. But the point is that you're going to live longer is the anticipation here, you know that we're let's be optimistic. So we can better living through science take a pill to get that same vitamin D without exposing ourselves unnecessarily to the radiation that can cause a problem. Let's do it. I'm not saying stay out of the sun. Just wear your sunscreen when you go out there. And then you get the best of both worlds.

Philip Pape 45:50

Yeah, good point. Good point. All right, let's turn to peptides. This is something I don't know as much about as I want to read in your book learning about it. So have a collaboration with someone she's opening an aesthetics studio, where they're going to offer peptides, so it's starting to learn about it. You said that 10% of pharmaceuticals are based on peptides and proteins. Creatine peptides, yeah, I didn't I wasn't even aware of that. Of course, I take that every day all anybody who lives should be taking their creatine.

Dr. Rand McClain 46:18

While it was that long with beta alanine?

Philip Pape 46:22

Yes, which is often found in pre workouts along with like L citrulline. And what's the other one betaine, I think are the big three but beta alanine, that's a reason being is because

Dr. Rand McClain 46:31

you're going to extend your time to exhaustion by three to five seconds, minimally with the creatine, and that creates an acidic environment that the Beta Alanine will bounce.

Philip Pape 46:42

Okay, well, glad I took my Alinea in the pre workout. So there we go. knew there was a reason for it. So yeah, anyway, peptides. So there's a whole bunch of them. Even in your book, you list just just a wide variety growth hormone, gonadotropin releasing peptides, there's some for libido, there's collagen, in layman's terms, give us a crash course in peptides, and then how they work in the body.

Dr. Rand McClain 47:06

So peptides, really it's a matter of semantics. Because depending upon how you talk, most agree that you know 50 Or more as a protein, fewer than 50 or fewer, I guess I should say is a peptide. But all they are you know that you got these amino acids in the certain structure. And I liken it to tinker toys, right where if you remember that theory was still around, but you have played with

Philip Pape 47:31

them in the 80s. So yeah,

Dr. Rand McClain 47:33

structure you want. And just one leg in different one extra post with a another knob at the end, we'll call it which can change the way it works dramatically or slightly depending upon the peptide and the way it works once it reaches the cytosol going inside the cell or even into the nucleus. So that's fascinating. I mean, of all the things and there are a bunch of things, I shouldn't pick one or the other. But that's one at the top of list is exciting, because think of all the different constructs you can make. With a tinker toy set. If you have enough tinker toys, right, you go on, literally, you know, infinitely almost literally. And just by tinkering with one of these, or two of them or whatever ligations it changes the way it works, we have the ability to test now if you look at that with in combination with stem cells, where we can grow organs, we grow liver, we can grow a pancreas, we don't have to do the human testing or even the animal testing, we go straight to human testing, not in vivo, but in vitro with these and just start throwing and of course any bringing AI right to okay, if this structure does this baseball, we know that all the

Philip Pape 48:46

some moreas if we

Dr. Rand McClain 48:47

make one of these, what happens and we can really advance pharmacology immensely. And I'm throwing it into pharmacology because again, yeah, a lot of drugs are based on insulin being the classic example. And with that, we not only come up with structures that can enhance the ability of insulin, we've already done it we have different ways. But you know what we want to be able to do for example, we want to have a long acting insulin Well, we have those now. Lantis versus, you know, the standard is and we can do that with all different kinds of peptides, presumably, and make life a lot easier. We can make them some we might want to make shorter acting so they're less dangerous. So that's a huge field and you know, you pick what you're trying to change. We can come up with a peptide for it. I mean, you know, you mentioned the list, we have things that treat everything from libido, right. I remember growing up, I say growing up I get I'm 60 but we had this thing the Spanish Fly Oh, we give somebody extra libido. We have it

Philip Pape 49:52

as a PT 141 PT 141. Yeah.

Dr. Rand McClain 49:55

And then we had this superb example. One leg n different Literally one, and it's a great tanning agent.

Philip Pape 50:04

Wow. Okay, this is this is fascinating stuff. Yeah.

Dr. Rand McClain 50:08

And you go on and on about, you know, for the brain several isin for anxiety and some call it a new tropic cymax, there are different peptides for just about anybody's desire that they want to change.

Philip Pape 50:22

So at the end of the day, you're saying it's just a, it's just a protein with fewer than 50, maybe 50 amino acids,

Dr. Rand McClain 50:29

it rarely is just a it's a line they draw. So it's a matter of space. But basically, yeah, they're their amino acids. It certainly has a certain structure. And just, I think the the general agreement is that if it's 50 or fewer, it's called a peptide, although there's some disagreement there. Who cares? It's it

Philip Pape 50:46

doesn't matter. Yeah, just so Okay, so then practicing from practical purposes, then what, you know, if you had someone come in, and what, when would they be a good candidate for peptides? What kind of potential issue or goal that they're trying to achieve? Maybe if they don't have symptoms yet? Going back to your previous statement? And then what would that look like? Are these you know, pills that they take injectables? How long they take them? Like, just give us some an idea? So peptides?

Dr. Rand McClain 51:15

Almost invariably, to get the best effects? Certainly, you're gonna have to inject them because the stomach acid will otherwise denature the structure very quickly. So although you know, you have studies, for example, to say, Okay, well, yeah, well, that's why you can't take college and get benefit. And yet we find that yeah, you can take as little as three grams a college and get some benefit. So the stomach doesn't completely torched it somehow, some way. Or maybe it comes back together for some reason we don't know about. But as a general rule, you have to inject these peptides to get them to work. And, you know, that's usually done with a very small needle and has some needle close to the units 31 gauge as opposed to acupuncture needles, 36 gauge, the higher the number, the smaller the bore of the deal.

Philip Pape 52:07

Is right into your stomach, or thigh or something like that, right.

Dr. Rand McClain 52:11

Sorry, yeah. Occasionally, it can be done internationally as well. But most of the peptides, I think people just kind of get in the habit of doing a separate ASC. Sometimes for good reason, because you want the uptake to be slower. Sometimes it was to fashion this, I'm flushing with certain of these. But So your question was, what circumstances would you use it, it would be really up to your goals. Now. There's some that use insulin where you have a disease state, but let's say for the Masters athlete, I call this right, more difficult to put on muscle mass. We use thymosin beta four, for example, which helps with regeneration of acting within the sarcomere, which was writing this

Philip Pape 52:54

down, hold on. Okay,

Dr. Rand McClain 52:59

well, it also there's another way, slightly different TV 500. But yeah, I mean, again, the sky's the limit, it just depends upon what it is you're trying to work on. There's typically some sort of peptide that works. And the funny thing is, it's not cut and dried, like you might expect. And some works the same for everybody pretty much right? And he takes much of it, you remove too much glucose and you can die. And some are riskier than others, but then you can have somebody that uses almost forget, it starts with a D and I'm not gonna remember this one, but it's used to help people sleep and some people swear by it. Some people didn't do a doggone thing. Some x is an anxiolytic. Some people swear by it doesn't do anything for others. So, you know, is that dose related? We've experimented, I have haven't noticed that it makes a difference because those just some people work with certain structures and some people don't. So Moreland is a classic example. Have you heard of some Orlan? So growth hormone releasing hormone if you take the first 29 amino acids, it's what we call Sermorelin. We used to be branded as jerith Dr. Richard Walker's involved in all that. And it acts the same way you injected very short acting, but it makes it makes your body produce more growth hormone. That's what it's for. Well, there's a small but significant percentage of those people that when they do it, they get incredible somnolence such that they have to back down on the dose or survive the next you know, morning to noon on espresso is interesting, in that

Philip Pape 54:40

it's a genetic it's a genetic difference. Like if we pegged some of these down to someone's DNA.

Dr. Rand McClain 54:45

Not that I'm aware of. I don't think we've gotten into that kind of nuance to share but eventually we can if we do enough study in particular if you employ AI out okay, there, is there a genetic component there is it is it genetics, is it EPA genetics involved? Is it a combination of oh, they do this with that? I mean, that's what makes us Yeah, that's crazy. Where AI comes in, that's changed the subject. But you know, it's in the news recently, right?

Philip Pape 55:11

Yeah. A lot. We can talk AI for sure.

Dr. Rand McClain 55:15

I don't think we should slow down one bit, I think we might take certain precautions with, you know, using AI and military installations and things that can, you know, drum up, you know, the old, what was it? How in

Philip Pape 55:27

1000? Yeah, otherwise,

Dr. Rand McClain 55:28

this was it, you know, in medicine, because, you know, sky's the limit is what we can find.

Philip Pape 55:33

Exactly, yeah, that that is a huge, huge area of potential is in medicine. You were talking earlier about Dr. Google and I at the time, I thought, Oh, what about Dr. Chat, GBT? Because I've tried using it for things like, you know, I had a little rash on my wrist or something. And I'm, and I'm like, you know, what could this be? And it says, I'm not a doctor. But here's what the evidence showed, you know, of course, they've got all the Cya in there. Well, speaking of the genetics, just real quick, do you do genetic testing at your practice? Yeah, yeah,

Dr. Rand McClain 56:04

I'm a big fan of it. And also, epigenetic testing, you know, the DNA methylation testing, can give you a lot of good feedback as to what you're doing the results of what you're doing. Okay. Is it helping, you know, is it furthering your age, your biological age? Or is it helping you be younger for longer? So, yeah, a big proponent of that, while telomeres I don't think are is helpful. I'd also like to use those for aging. Yeah, I guess it's also helpful. It's just not as pinpoint. As as you might say, as DNA methylation, we get pretty precise with DNA methylation. But it's also nice to look at your genome period, not this the epigenome to see, okay, what is my propensity, let's say, God forbid, I've got essential hypertension, I've done everything, right. I can't figure it out. But I've got hypertension, or it's renal artery stenosis, and I don't want to get treatment for what drug will work better for me or best for me. We have the relationships mapped out there with certain drugs, well, you know, or certain categories? Well, you'll do better with, you know, a diuretic than an ACE inhibitor. That, to me is fascinating, too. Because, you know, especially with critical care, you don't waste time trying something that may or may not work based upon your genes.

Philip Pape 57:28

That's fascinating. Yeah, no, this is this is incredible. I mean, you you touch on a lot of this in your book, I don't know, I didn't read it in detail, but eyebrows, because I just got it a few days ago, I'm assuming the peptides, you go into some detail about the types and what they're what they're for, in the book,

Dr. Rand McClain 57:46

you know, unlike some of the other books, and, you know, one just came out from a guy who I'm a big fan of Peter to outlive. It his tells more of a story, I think, and fewer not gonna say there are action items that I tried to go into, for better or for worse details as to, you know, more of those options, you know, not just oh, peptides can do this. But here's some peptides, as you know, here's a smattering of the peptides. And here's the dose and and, you know, here are the pharmacies that I recommend, because you don't want to be doing. I don't suggest that use, you know, the black market in places that aren't qualified to do so. Yeah, when I was 20, I might have done differently. But again, you know, I'm not 20. And I don't recommend it. Do as I say, not as I did it. So yeah, I try and present that in all areas where at the end of the chapter, there's some call to action items.

Philip Pape 58:42

Yep. Yeah, no, I personally appreciate that style of book. It's like a combination, very detailed reference and stories and anecdotes, and it has a positive, I think, positive, optimistic tone to it, which I can appreciate. It's not doom and gloom. It's here's how you can take control. So just wrap up with a couple last questions, if you don't mind. You've you've probably seen a lot happening in a career, a lot of advancements, we talked about a few of them earlier. And you even said that some of the industry is just catching up, like you're probably ahead of where a lot of conventional facilities might be. Give us the inside scoop like what are what is coming up maybe that people haven't heard of what's cutting edge? What's out there that's being developed? I guess, besides AI and what we've already talked about?

Dr. Rand McClain 59:27

Well, again, kind of a difficult question to answer it this way with all the things we have the areas like we haven't even touched on gene editing or stem cells. I think what is going to be the most fascinating and one of the most powerful things is going to sound kind of anticlimactic. But if you think about it's going to be hugely powerful is the communications between the various specialties, the various disciplines. What I mean by that as we talk Some a little bit earlier where, okay, we'll use stem cells to grow organs, okay? And AI to develop the right peptides, combine all that to come up with a faster, better working peptide or a drug we could use any drugs doesn't have to be limited to peptides, what we've been lacking, and it's partly because of the structure, it's not a conspiracy thing, but the NIH funds projects, okay. And if you're a researcher and someone wants to advance the sport, so to speak, you're stuck in a lot while you're certainly governed by money. And there's only a limited amount of private funding the NIH, will I forget what the stats are, but maybe they'll fund maybe one in five, if that's correct. But you also have to be swinging with the same balls, in the sense that if you're pursuing something other than, you know, amyloid plaque for Alzheimer's, well, you're not gonna get funded. Well, that limits us. I mean, yeah, you're shaking like that. You don't have to think about everything. What?

Philip Pape 1:01:02

So we're just not surprised, though.

Dr. Rand McClain 1:01:06

All these other areas, and I shouldn't sound purposely actually, because we have screwed up on that. We're now finding that that's not that look, I guess the cause it's really more of a reaction to something that's going on. And we've wasted a lot of time and research money. Okay. So anyway, without going too far afield, because you know, I am an eternal optimist. Focus on the positive, we're going to the future is combining these things and finding groups like one of my peers, Gary, Michaelson, milking, milking Foundation, and UCLA, they've all gotten together and made it so that they're going to change the way it's funded. So that if you have some, pardon my French but wild acid idea as to how to fix the problem of Alzheimer's, we're gonna say, sounds good, and you're going to make a presentation. But here's the funding for it. Not only that, okay. The upshot of that is also that you're not going to be sitting there going like, Okay, this is my information. Okay? If I let it go, I'm not going to get funded next year, because someone else is going to run with that ball. No, you're going to still get funded by these groups, okay, because that's the approach we want to take. And we're going to share that information with everybody else. So that this hand knows what this hand is doing. To me. I know it doesn't sound like souks, too excited. But if you think about it, that's one of the most exciting things about the what we're going from here is that we're going to start communicating with one another. Yeah. She's on a logarithmic changes in our knowledge base.

Philip Pape 1:02:41

Yeah, I mean, that's open source that's crowdsourcing. I mean, you see it in the research in the, in the academic world where they have like the Open Access papers, and you have these open databases and all researchers, I mean, all of that stuff is great. Like, the more we share, the more we all benefit. So I'm with you there, man. Yeah.

Dr. Rand McClain 1:02:57

Yes, we've been hamstrung because of money. And that's a Romney. Excuse.

Philip Pape 1:03:03

Yeah, no, because it's a perverse incentive. But let's, let's get together

Dr. Rand McClain 1:03:06

and make it a crummy excuse, you know?

Philip Pape 1:03:10

Well, let's, let's end on one more note here. This is a question I ask all guests, you can't get out of it. And that is one question. Did you wish I had asked and what is your answer? Well, that's a good one.

Dr. Rand McClain 1:03:26

What would I want a phrase like more like, Okay, if you're a patient, what should you ask me by now? Wow. And you gotta be stumped. Mean. We're, yeah. There's so much out there. I don't know what you know, there's so many things you could ask. I mean, I could go on talking about this.

Philip Pape 1:03:50

There's so many topics in your book, I didn't even get to rank and

Dr. Rand McClain 1:03:53

run them out for an indefinite amount of time, at least until he asked to eat again. But um, yeah, what to ask me. I don't know that maybe. Is there? Is there a favorite area I have? You know, that's a kind of a, whatever. Want to go for it. Dan questions. I'm just trying to get out of it, because it hit me that

Philip Pape 1:04:12

you're not the only one. This seems to be a stumper. I think it was sent me to.

Dr. Rand McClain 1:04:16

One of the things we haven't talked about is that my mentioned is stem cells. Stem cells seem to be stem in new cells, which is something I mentioned in the book. new cells are different than stem cells and that they don't cause cancer, they can cross the blood brain barrier. There as are more powerful than stem cells. And until we get some of these other things together, and it further medicines to the point where we can do it like Star Trek, you know, we know everything that generates the perfect injection of stem cells provide a great bridge stem and new cells until we figure out some stuff because you know, I took a monkey could do it because stem cells know how to hone in on the area that needs the help. So you could give These stem immune cells intravenously, and with some general caveats, like okay, the way is perfused, a lot of these are gonna go to the ones first, but they know where to go. And if you have damage from a recent or even an old MI, heart attack, those cells go in there and make some repairs. That's fascinating. And that gives us a lot of time for those that have been injured or will be injured. Until we come up with even greater advancements in medicines that can dodge those from the start. or protect us even more quickly.

Philip Pape 1:05:35

I'm all in I'm all in doctor. And I mean, all this new stuff a takes on something that's called a biologic that wouldn't have existed as little as five years ago for a condition and it's just crazy how they can target stuff. So amazing. This has been a fun conversation. Where can people find out more about you? I mentioned the book. Well, where do you want them to go?

Dr. Rand McClain 1:05:54

Well, our website you know, we have a website PSR med.com. Don't ask me I came up with as an old story. But Papa Sierra Romeo med.com. Like to keep a lot of pertinent information up there. Like to stay in touch. through Instagram, I find that to be pretty cool through the PR people that I've got to know, because I can answer questions without one. And then post some tidbits, you know, the world lives in those, what, minute, two minute and a half. We're up on LinkedIn, and I think Twitter and Facebook, all those. So you know, any of those, I guess

Philip Pape 1:06:29

I'll throw I'll throw it in there. Don't worry. And I'll connect, connect with the folks as well, just to make sure it's all good. And this has been a fascinating conversation. I wasn't sure you know what we'd get into and we covered a lot of tangents that were a lot of fun. And you were not long winded in any way. This is this was a needed conversation. I'm sure the listener is gonna get a lot out of it. So thank you, Dr. Ram for coming on the show.

Dr. Rand McClain 1:06:49

Thank you. I appreciate you having me. Thank you very much.

Philip Pape 1:06:53

If you've been inspired by today's interview, and are ready to take action and build momentum on your health and fitness journey, just schedule a free 30 minute nutrition momentum call with me using the link in my show notes. I promise not to sell or pitch you on anything, but I will help you gain some perspective and guidance so we can get you on the right track toward looking and feeling your best

Philip Pape 4/21/23 Philip Pape 4/21/23

Ep 63: Q&A – Dietary Guidelines, Carbs, Lipedema, Life Stress, Fasting for Longevity, Killer Plants, and Metabolic “Damage”

In this solo episode, I am excited to answer questions from listeners about how to modify nutrition and training if you have lipedema, how stress affects training and health, whether occasional fasting can increase longevity while keeping protein high, and a quick fire round where I answer seven questions sent in by one listener about dietary guidelines, killer plants, getting fat on carbs, metabolic damage, blood sugar and A1C, shredding for a vacation, and how to best measure getting jacked.

In today’s solo episode, I am excited to answer questions from listeners about how to modify nutrition and training if you have lipedema, how stress affects training and health, whether occasional fasting can increase longevity while keeping protein high, and a quick fire round where I answer seven questions sent in by one listener about dietary guidelines, killer plants, getting fat on carbs, metabolic damage, blood sugar and A1C, shredding for a vacation, and how to best measure getting jacked.

Tune in now to learn more about these topics!

__________
Schedule your FREE 30-minute Nutrition Momentum Call with Philip here:
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Today you’ll learn all about:

[1:46] Is there any research to back up a specific diet or exercise regimen for someone with lipedema?
[5:44] How to manage life stress, and how does it affect training and health?
[9:58] Stephanie shares her experience with her one-on-one nutrition coaching with Philip
[10:45] Is fasting beneficial for longevity?
[16:00] Are dietary guidelines making us fat and sick?
[17:03] Are plants trying to kill us?
[18:01] Do carbs make us fat?
[18:40] Is there any validity to metabolic damage claims?
[19:36] If I have normal blood sugar levels, should I strive to prevent “spikes” and lower my A1c?
[20:27] What’s the best way to look great for an upcoming vacation?
[21:32] Is adding weight to the bar the only metric I need to consider?
[23:10] Outro

IG: @witsandweights
Email: philip@witsandweights.com

🥩 Download your Free Ultimate Macros Guide and 50 High-Protein Recipes here

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Transcript

Philip Pape 00:00

Right, just think about it when you're very stressed, you're worn out, you're rundown, you're less motivated. So if you have that get up and go, you might not have that. It interferes with your sleep quantity, your sleep quality. It even reduces your immune function so you get sick more often, and it increases inflammation. Stress is so important.

Philip Pape 00:23

Welcome to the Wits & Weights podcast. I'm your host Philip pape, and this twice a week podcast is dedicated to helping you achieve physical self mastery by getting stronger. Optimizing your nutrition and upgrading your body composition will uncover science backed strategies for movement, metabolism, muscle and mindset with a skeptical eye on the fitness industry so you can look and feel your absolute best. Let's dive right in. Wits & Weights community Welcome to another solo episode of the Wits & Weights podcast where we answer questions from you the listener sent to me through wits & weights.com through IG at Wits & Weights and through our free Facebook community, also called surprise Wits & Weights. I hope you enjoyed our last episode 62 with Amanda Cooper, where we talked about personalizing your fitness. Today for episode 63 we dive into questions about how to modify nutrition and training if you have lymphedema, how stress affects training and health. Whether occasional fasting can increase longevity while keeping protein Hi, and a quick fire round where I answer seven questions sent in by one listener about dietary guidelines, killer plants, getting fat on carbs, metabolic damage, blood sugar and a one C shredding for vacation and how to best measure getting jacked. Let's dive into today's questions. Question number one is about lipedema and it comes from two listeners. Tyler s writes, I was at a conference last fall with PTS who specializes in treating individuals with lymphedema and lymphedema. My son was born with primary lymphedema, which is why I was attending. They did an eval on me and said they think I have lymphedema stage one. Interestingly enough, interestingly enough, there's no link between the two. Apparently there isn't much that can be done for it other than maintaining a healthy weight and continuing to exercise and strength train. I always knew that I carried weight disproportionately in my lower half, but never knew why is there any research to backup a specific diet or exercise regimen. Now adding to this another listener and ln k adds. I've heard keto is helpful for lymphedema, but the research is a bit spotty. I think the biggest concern for this condition is lack of mobility and the fact that the composition of your lower half may not be the same as your upper half lymphedema. So lymphedema is something I didn't know much about. And I did some research. And it's a condition that causes additional fat accumulation in the lower body, disproportionately in the legs, the thighs, the glutes, and it can also cause pain, swelling and bruising. Sometimes it's misdiagnosed as obesity or lymphedema. But those are aren't related to lymphedema. I did some research and there's no cure for lymphedema. But lifestyle changes can mitigate the symptoms, they can prevent the complications, primarily through the same nutrition and training protocols that I would use with any client to improve and maintain body composition, with some minor exceptions that I'm going to cover in a second, keeping in mind that this is a nutrition and training podcast, I'm not a medical expert, I don't dispense medical advice, etc. So for nutrition, we still care about the basics about energy intake, having sufficient protein for muscle, carbs for energy and recovery fat for hormones and health. There's no evidence that a specific diet like low carb or keto is better than any other on average for someone with lymphedema. So as always, what I recommend is N equals one you are your own experimental sample, and you should experiment on your own and see if there's any difference. And one way to do this would be an elimination diet, you would cut out a bunch of foods that you suspect are irritants or things that cause you to feel less than optimal. See if you do feel better after cutting those out, and then start adding back foods in one at a time to see if any of those don't work for you. So that's and that's a protocol that pretty much anyone can use if they think if they suspect an allergen or some intolerance. Now on the training side, we might have more to work with because we care about things like circulation, you know, blood circulation in the legs, lymphatic drainage, strength, mobility, all of that, given the disproportionate amount of fat accumulation in the lower body. And again, although I'd still recommend things like squats and avoiding high impact cardio like running, which I would recommend that for most people anyway. But I think if you have lymphedema, you want

Philip Pape 05:00

Pay attention to whether you're getting specific pain or discomfort in your lower body and then adjust your training accordingly. And I have read that you can wear compression pants or compression garments during exercise to prevent swelling around your tissues. And then last but not least, there are other treatments to consider, like compression therapy, manual lymphatic drainage massage, and medical interventions that are beyond the scope of my coaching practice or this podcast. But I wanted to mention because they came up in my research, I would suggest working with your healthcare professional and develop a personalized plan with them with your coach, monitor adjust so you can manage your lymphedema and I hope that answer helps give you some ideas you may not have considered. Okay, question number two is also from Elaine Kay who writes, I would be interested in stress management and how stress at work, social etc, can affect training and health. Okay. So when we think of stress, it's this kind of life stress. That's the term I'm going to use life stress that I think most people think of the stress from your work from your home life from your family, from anything you do on a regular basis. And I think it really does have a massive effect on your training and health. Even more than you might realize. I've seen clients who everything else seems to be dialed in. But because of this chronic stress, their body just wants to preserve itself. And this there's this direct physiological effect that is happening right where the stress, quote unquote stress hormones cortisol and adrenaline get elevated, and they get elevated for much longer than they would in a natural human state. If you think of how humans lived before civilization, where we rose and went to sleep with the sun, you look at your cortisol cycle where it rises in the morning and gradually declines at night, and then increasing your serotonin and melatonin. Nowadays, we often have to take adrenal support and melatonin supplements, and all these things because we've got blue light hitting us in the face, we've got sounds, we've got the city, you've got people and it just goes on and on. So elevated cortisol causes greater fat storage and muscle breakdown. And this chronic stress is correlated with many health factors, higher anxiety, depression, poor gut health, headaches, body aches, heart disease, high blood pressure, stroke, problems, sleeping, weight gain, and memory impairment, just to name a few are pretty much the name all of them.

Philip Pape 07:29

Stress also depletes your energy, right? Just think about it when you're very stressed, you're worn out, you're rundown, you're less motivated. So if you have that get up and go, you might not have that. It interferes with your sleep quantity, your sleep quality. It even reduces your immune function, so you get sick more often. And it increases inflammation. Stress is so important. And life stress makes you crave foods and makes it crave more calorie dense foods, you end up skipping meals or you forget to drink water, it affects your nutrition leads to more emotional eating. And then because life stress, stress affects your mood and your mental health. It can mess with your emotions, your self esteem, your confidence, your relationships, your quality of life. Okay, so what can we do about it, and what what I think we want, we want a good balance. We want balance between acute short term stressors, the things that we like to do for our body, like strength training, that contribute toward health. And we want a balance between that and our life stress. So even if you can't eliminate the source of the life stress, and I would argue that in many cases, if you really think hard enough and come up with a plan, you probably could eliminate some of that life stress. It just may require getting uncomfortable or making choices, choices, outside the scope of what you had thought, like changing your job or moving to a new house. These are big decisions. But if they contribute massively to chronic stress, they affect your health. And if your health is your number one priority, do the math. So if you but if you can't, or even if you can, you can mitigate life stress by training, training properly and allowing for recovery, eating foods that fuel and feel great for your body, drinking plenty of water, getting plenty of sleep, devoting at least 30 minutes each day to me time, right self care so that you can relax and recover. So guess what, these are all the things you want to be doing anyway. And once you're aware and cognizant of how important stress is toward your body composition, your nutrition, your training, you will put in the efforts to mitigate it or even eliminate it. And I really want you to take a step back and do that right now. Think about those places in your life that cause you stress and know that you are in total control of doing something about it. You can do something and then you can also mitigate the stress. So I hope that answered your question about stress management.

10:00

The most value that I got from this was the fact that I had someone that I could talk to about anything and that there was going to be no judgement, it was just Well, here are your goals, here's the best way that you're going to achieve it. And then let's work together to help you feel inspired and motivated to do that. And there's a lot of people out there trying to be coaches, and not all of them have done the work and also just be a genuine person that is positive and coming from the heart in terms of wanting to help and Phillip really embodied all of those qualities, I would recommend him to just about anyone that's looking to achieve goals in that realm of their nutrition and building new habits.

Philip Pape 10:45

Question three is from Alan F. Who writes, I just heard Ben Pakulski on his podcast, muscle intelligence, great podcast, by the way I hadn't been funny thing is I subscribed to so many podcasts and I had not come across that one. And I started listening to it muscle intelligence. And I'm really enjoying it Allen because he his, his lens, his perspective, his angle is a little bit different than a lot of the nuts and bolts podcast. And he states he says it like it is but then he also cover some interesting angles that that others might not all back by the evidence. So great recommendation, I'm happy to recommend other podcasts in that one I did like muscle intelligence. And he heard Ben say that fasting three to four times a month can be beneficial for longevity, while protein intake remains high. There are many people adopting fasting, not just daily window fasting, which I would refer to as time restricted feeding, and some people call intermittent fasting, but also multiple day fasting. What is your take on this practice? Okay, I re I re reviewed the evidence. Okay, not that I'm some no expert. But the evidence is constantly changing. So it's good to get it refreshed in case some big study comes along, that just blows everything out of the water. But the evidence on fasting for longevity still appears inconclusive. Even if you did watch the what is that with Chris Hemsworth, limitless on Disney, pretty cool show just to show people going into extremes. And he fasted for like four days in a row. Insane. But he did. But anyway, many of the studies have been done on animals. And they've had mixed results, and actually found four studies that support fasting for longevity, but we have to keep in mind that they are short term. And they are observational. But just to play devil's advocate, I wanted to put them out there so you can look it up. And if if you read them and you're like, hey, this seems to support fasting, I want to give it a shot, go for it, give it a shot, right? It's not for everyone. And if it if it's beneficial at all, we just don't quite know on humans because we haven't enough of time, or studies on humans. Anyway, here are the four studies. There's one by Harvard, showing that fasting can increase lifespan, slow aging and improved health by altering the activity of mitochondrial networks inside our cells. There's a review article by Longo at all, in it to discuss the benefits and drawbacks of intermittent and periodic fasting for longevity and disease prevention in humans. And it links them to major nutrient sensing signaling pathways, focusing on the benefits of fasting and refeeding periods. The third one is a clinical trial by way at all that found that a five day fasting mimicking diet improved biomarkers of aging, metabolism and cardiovascular health. And then there's a study by Teruya at all, where fasting increased the levels of metabolites, the specific metabolites that decline with age and are associated with longevity in humans. So pretty cool stuff, there's a lot of data out there. But you have to take it with a grain of salt and read the methodology and so on to really understand what the study is saying. Now, other things need to be considered the type of fasting, the duration, the frequency, the intensity, your age, your overall health, your goals, and so on. And as as mentioned, in the podcast, where the question came from, you're gonna sacrifice a bit of muscle during fasting. So to your question, you could potentially try a protein only fast, which is a strategy I've recommended for time restricted feeding when you want to try that you simply eat protein throughout the day, and you avoid fats and carbs during the fasting window. So you get up in the morning, and you would just have breakfast as normal, but it would be pure protein, okay, then maybe, maybe your lunch would be pure protein, but then between three and 7pm, you would have all your carbs and fats in those meals. And then you're done. And you kind of have a small fasting window and then an extended fast from protein only, and then you start doing your fats and carbs. So that's something that you can try. I think the jury's still out in terms of longevity, but for short term benefits. There's you and you alone who can who knows if it's going to work for you. So give it a shot. Try it for a few months. Track your biofeedback track your results, get the day To compare before and after. All right, good luck. And now so this is gonna be fun. I'm gonna do a quick fire round. There are seven questions from fellow coaching community member, Dustin Lambert, who by the way, he recorded an interview with me that will come out about a month from this episode. I think he wanted to help me fill up some airtime. So what I should have done was sit him down and show my list of about 1000 ideas I have already for future solo podcast episodes. But nonetheless, Dustin man, I'm very grateful because it allows me to inject a little bit of humor to this episode, so you'll see what I mean. Now, you all listeners, you know, I love to talk, but I do it out of love. I want to share as much value as possible on the show. So either way, it's going to be fun. I'm going to answer these questions. Mike Matthews style if you don't listen to muscle for life, love the guy Mike Matthews. Sometimes he has q&a episodes where he like rapid fires his answers with with snark and Sass, so I'll do my best. Here we go. Number one, our dietary guidelines making us fat and sick. Alright, dietary guidelines are government sponsored advice on what to consume to survive to avoid malnutrition to avoid chronic disease. I would say these are rock bottom minimums in most cases, with some reasonable targets mixed in. But to your question, Dustin, are those guidelines sneaking into your kitchen at night? To make you a snack? Or here's another angle are people who struggle with weight and disease? Are they following any guidelines? You tell me? Are they following any guidelines at all, even if they wanted to? Chances are they either don't know what to do. Or if they listen to this podcast and they're educated on what to do. They struggle with how to do it and being consistent. And this is where tracking measuring taking action with tools like flexible dieting, give us freedom to choose our foods without being beholden to third party guidelines, while still being informed of the evidence when it comes to our health. So let's take the power back from guidelines from rigid diets and from fitness influencers and master our own physical health. Number two, are plants trying to kill us? All right, only if you're Seymour and Little Shop of Horrors, where Audrey to feeds on human flesh. But otherwise, plants are the best thing since sliced bread with way more nutrients, vitamins and minerals. Yes, plants have defense mechanisms like mild toxins and allergens, which is why we generally cook them and eat them in moderation. And we monitor our digestion to identify things that feel great when we consume them and avoid the things that don't chances are most people are under eating plants. I mean, I went for years without eating any vegetables, or anything you could call a vegetable. I mean I had corn and potatoes, but anything green until my wife finally trained me to do it at my request. So thank you honey for doing that. Plants have fiber they fill you up they fill in your nutrient caps, nutrient caps, nutrient gaps, and they taste great if you prepare them the right way. Number three do carbs make us fat. No, but eating too many calories over a prolonged period will make you fat. Unless carbs are now sentient with muffins being imbued with chat. GBT brains are now plotting to infiltrate our salads without us knowing carbs are not going to make you fat. On the contrary, carbs are critical for energy and recovery, and overeating. Any macro to put you in a calorie surplus is what leads to weight gain. Carbs can keep you full, especially the complex variety, like whole grains and vegetables that have lots of fiber and not much sugar, and they can regulate your blood sugar and insulin. Three cheers to carbs. Number four, is there any validity to metabolic damage claims? No, none whatsoever. But there is validity to metabolic adaptation. Damage implies permanence and it's a juicy marketing term to entice desperate people to buy your eight week rapid weight loss program. But adaptation is just a temporary state where your metabolism or total daily energy expenditure is downregulated. And it declines due to stressors like being in a calorie deficit, or doing too much cardio to those of you running a marathon every day, or simply weighing less during a fat loss phase moving and walking less and the downregulation of hormones. This is totally normal and easily reversed by recovering to maintenance calories or higher. And by the way, if you use macro factor and you know what your expenditure is, you don't have to reverse it up. If you don't want to you can jump straight to me it's calories. Number five.

Philip Pape 19:37

If I have normal blood sugar levels, should I strive to prevent spikes and lower my a one C. Okay. spikes in blood sugar are normal after eating certain foods, so don't freak out. prolonged high blood sugar however, can be a sign of metabolic disease or what we call pre diabetes. A one C measures average blood glucose over a two to three month period It normal agency level is under 5.7%. A pre diabetic level is between 5.7 and 6.4%. In the diabetic level is 6.5% or higher. If you focus on maintaining a healthy body composition, eating a diverse diet of 80 to 90% Whole Foods you're golden. Also get moving, go for walks, especially after meals. Disclaimer. Again, this podcast does not dispense medical advice, and it's for entertainment purposes only. Number six, what's the best way to look great for an upcoming vacation? Be you have fun, the right blend of confidence sunshine, a bangin pair of shades should do the trick. And here's the thing. Looking great for vacation by improving your body composition takes time and cannot be rushed in eight to 12 weeks. Give yourself six months before any such event and do the things we talk about on this podcast all the time. lift heavy weights with progressive overload in the four to six rep range. Use a flexible dieting approach where you track and measure your calories and macros until you know what and how much you eat. Walk regularly. Get plenty of high quality sleep, eat your protein and take care of yourself, then periodized your nutrition with the seasons. So your fat loss phase takes about 12 to 16 weeks leading up to your vacation. Then we're close that you feel great in smile often compliment and be kind to others and try out a new adventure. Most of all relax and have fun. Number seven is adding weight to the bar the only metric I need to consider. Well as they say variety is the spice of life. adding weight to the bar is a necessity especially for beginners to know that you're actually getting stronger and building muscle. But after a few short months of this and being consistent with this, you may need to play with rep sets volume, frequency, intensity, range of motion, tempo variation of your movements. Don't forget food, sleep and recovery. If you're in the bodybuilding, you can throw in drop sets, rest pause sets density sets isometrics to add some challenging variety. Be creative, be flexible, but also know that if you are using weight on the bar as your only metric and it's going up, enjoy the games, bro. All right. That does it for today's q&a episode. Wits & Weights community. I'm always happy to jump on a free 30 minute call to walk through your specific nutrition and fitness issues and questions. No selling no pitching. To book a free 30 minute nutrition momentum call just use the link in my show notes. We'll dive deep into your approach. We'll customize it to get you better results for your health and body composition. Again, just look for that free call link in the show notes next week for episode 64. We have a fun and informative interview with Dr. Rand McLean, also known as America's longevity doctor, you'll learn about hormones and hormone replacement menopause versus menopause peptides, innovative treatments, the use of AI in medicine and more. As always, stay strong. And I'll talk to you next time here on the Wits & Weights podcast. If you've been inspired by today's interview, and are ready to take action and build momentum on your health and fitness journey, just schedule a free 30 minute nutrition momentum call with me using the link in my show notes. I promise not to sell or pitch you on anything but I will help you gain some perspective and guidance so we can get you on the right track toward looking and feeling your best

Philip Pape 4/18/23 Philip Pape 4/18/23

Ep 62: Redefining Personalized Fitness and Breaking Through Barriers with Amanda Cooper

My guest today is Amanda Cooper, and we are going to talk about getting into fitness, physical strength, and mobility, eliminating things that hold you back from getting started, working with what you have, and the value of getting an assessment!

We begin with Amanda sharing how she got into fitness, from her personal journey and struggles with eating disorders and body image, to her experience working in a chiro clinic that gave her a different perspective on coaching, and her business now as a fitness coach.

Amanda shares powerful mindset shifts and actionable tips on breaking down fitness barriers and getting started by keeping it simple. Her clear understanding of what holds people back from pursuing fitness, especially women, gives her an advantage in providing support to those who want to start but don't know how or have self-doubt about starting and being consistent. She believes in the effectiveness of the right motivation in staying in a fitness program.

Amanda is a Strength Coach, Horse mom, Coffee Connoisseur, and Outdoor adventurer. She’s also the host of the Carbs & Coffee podcast.
__________
Schedule your FREE 30-minute Nutrition Momentum Call with Philip here:
__________
Today you’ll learn all about:

[2:16] Amanda shares her journey
[6:40] Taking up space in the gym
[8:40] Barriers to fitness for women or people in general
[10:22] Importance of session length
[12:18] How to get over the barriers
[13:58] 3 core components for behavior
[18:05] Strength training, resistance training, and nutrition
[20:12] How training affects appetite
[21:38] What you can do if you don't have a home gym
[23:12] How to be consistent
[26:06] Assessment process
[30:05] Full-depth squats with a band vs. partial rep squats over time
[31:45] Importance of an assessment before starting your program
[33:55] How to get started in improving your strength and physique
[35:35] Two questions Amanda wanted Philip to ask her
[39:01] Where to find Amanda
[40:08] Outro

Episode resources:

Facebook Group: Ambitious Women's Fitness Secrets
Podcast: Carbs & Coffee
Join the free Facebook community to download the beginners' strength guide here.

IG: @witsandweights
Email: philip@witsandweights.com

🥩 Download your Free Ultimate Macros Guide and 50 High-Protein Recipes here

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Transcript

Amanda Cooper 00:00

Keep it simple squat deadlift, overhead press. Do the basic movements and progress that over time, don't work through injury don't work through pain, and you will absolutely see progress. Even if it's not as curated or individualized to your needs, you will still be moving the needle forward in the right direction.

Philip Pape 00:25

Welcome to the Wits & Weights podcast. I'm your host, Philip pape, and this twice a week podcast is dedicated to helping you achieve physical self mastery by getting stronger. Optimizing your nutrition and upgrading your body composition will uncover science backed strategies for movement, metabolism, muscle and mindset with a skeptical eye on the fitness industry so you can look and feel your absolute best. Let's dive right in. Welcome to another episode of Wits & Weights. My guest today is Amanda Cooper. And we're going to talk about getting into fitness, physical strength and mobility, eliminating things that hold you back from getting started working with what you have and the value of getting an assessment. Amanda is a strength coach, horse mom, coffee connoisseur and outdoor adventure. She's also the host of the carbs and coffee podcast, so make sure to subscribe and support her show. Amanda is a fellow nutrition coach that connected with last year in late 2022. And she and I did a live training in her Facebook group back in December about metabolism. Her group is called ambitious women's fitness secrets. So go and join that to check the training out and many other free resources. Amanda found Fitness Through her personal journey in navigating eating disorders and extreme challenges with body image. She found her love for the weight room early in high school, and has been at it ever since. Her initial experience was in the rehab field working in a Cairo clinic as an assistant and personal trainer. And that gave her insight into the human body and a different perspective on coaching. Amanda realized how much of a gap there was in the fitness space for personalized programming and nutrition, and how she could simplify the complexity of health and fitness to make an impact. Amanda, it's great to see you again. Thank you for coming on the show. Yeah, thanks for having me. I'm super excited to dive into all this. So why don't we do that? Why don't we dive into your personal story to start with? Yeah. Yeah, we mentioned in the introduction that you had some challenges early on in your life with eating disorders, issues of body image. And then you discovered lifting rehab coaching, walk us through your journey that led to the current approach you have, which is this personalized approach to programming and nutrition. Yeah, so like high school middle school, I really had a terrible relationship with food. And I think part of it had to do with my dad was a diabetic and both my parents are first responders. So you know how they say medical professionals make for the worst patients, well try being their child. So that made for an interesting, you know, relationship with with exercise and with nutrition. And I found a love for the gym in like late middle school, early high school and I kind of swapped my disordered relationship with food for exercise. You know, my mom always said calories are like a checkbook. So the more you eat, the more you have to work, you know, she said if I go to the gym, I can I can eat what I want when the reality was her relationship with food wasn't great either. So that really influenced my initial relationship with the gym and with food. And then I got my first coach and that was in college. And I was going to the gym five days a week and totally under eating are still didn't have a great relationship with food, it had improved immensely at that point. And that really shifted my perspective on food, like I was given an 1800 Calorie like breakdown with 130 grams protein, and I was just shocked by how much food that was. And now thinking about it like that really wasn't that much food compared to you know where I am now. And then that experience really introduced me into the like If It Fits Your Macros kind of bodybuilding world that you could eat whatever you want, as long as it fit into your macros. And then I got a job in a chiropractic clinic Jim hybrid after I graduated with a management and marketing degree. And working for them was a really great experience. It really introduced me to you know how to personalize fitness to individuals based off of their

Amanda Cooper 05:00

needs their injury history. And I started to see this gap between the service we were providing and their goals. So most people came to us they had like shoulder pain, back pain, whatever their issues were. But underlying all of that they really wanted to lose weight. And working as a personal trainer and a strength coach, those were the ways that I could support them, I really didn't have the capacity in that situation to help them with nutrition. And we know that that is the the main driver of fat loss that and habit change and all these things that I really couldn't do, because I saw these people twice a week, three times a week for an hour for a workout. And that was it. So then they made some management choices. And I was like, Alright, I'm out of here. I had no plans to leave, I thought that that was going to be the place that I worked until, you know, I had kids, and then I'd figure something else out like there was no plan to start my own business. And then I was like, nope, things have turned in a direction that I'm not interested in heading. So I jumped ship, I started my own business. And now we're here. So now I really focus on helping women, one learn to take up space in the gym, because I think it can be a really intimidating place. And I help them diet in a way that does not destroy their relationship with food so that they can have the body that they want while still enjoying the foods that they love. Yeah, thank you so much for sharing all of that. It's funny how life throws you curveballs like it did in your case. And then it led to something even greater that probably was unexpected. So what talking about those two things that you just mentioned? Tell us more about, I guess, let's start about the space in the gym. I'm really curious about that phrase. I know, I've seen it used. And I think a lot of people know what it means. But maybe elaborate on that.

Amanda Cooper 07:04

Yeah, so a lot of the women that I work with really struggle, even getting into the gym, like I've had clients that have legitimately gone to the gym in the back, or sorry, gone to the bathroom at the gym and had a panic attack, because they were so overwhelmed, and had so much anxiety about going to the gym. And that was something that I worked through myself and through following a program and having a coach and I see it all the time, go, you know, go in after you know, New Years, and you'll see the cardio room is filled with people and there's hardly anybody in the weight room. And when you don't really know what you're doing in the weight room. It just makes it that much more intimidating. So really, we approach it with one education, like teaching people how to do those things in the weight room. So they feel confident doing it. And you know, empowering them to to understand that they deserve to be there and they deserve to take up some space in the gym and not be like they have to hide in the corner at the gym. Because other people are judging them because the reality is everybody's paying attention to themselves. But sometimes it takes that outside voice or a coach or a friend to tell you, nobody's watching you. Yeah, yeah. Not not like what these fitness influencers would lead you to believe with filming things in the gym and criticizing people. I think reality is maybe not like that, right? And maybe even people in the gym, depending on the culture are more supportive than you think it really depends on the culture. So that sounds like education and empowerment, you talked about as to ways to, I guess lower the barrier to fitness, especially for women. What would you say? Are those the big ones? Are there other big barriers to fitness for most people? Whether it's emotional, physical or logistical you know, like just getting to the gym? What walk us through? Yeah, no, I think that two biggest barriers for women specifically, but I think people in general, because I know you speak to men and women, but time is a big one. And then competence is the other which I think is really rooted in not having a plan not having any structure to what they're doing. So time to get to the gym is huge. You know, we work with a lot of moms and dads and people that have so much going on. And so time is the biggest barrier. How do I get an effective workout in in a period of time that doesn't take so much away from everything else that I've got going on. And then competence to go in there and execute because you could have a this 30 minute block in your schedule, but if you don't have a plan, you're probably not feeling like very competent or very even motivated to go in for 30 minutes and get a workout in because you

Amanda Cooper 10:00

You really have no direction and what you're doing?

Philip Pape 10:03

Yeah, I love the use of a plan for confidence and competence and confidence. It probably permeates everything we do, right even nutrition and food and everything else. But at the same time, you're, you're telling us it'll solve a significant problem with time. Because you know what you're doing right? You have exactly your sets, reps, whatever. What about you mentioned session, session length has been important. Do you talk about having a home gym versus commuting to the gym? Things like that?

Amanda Cooper 10:32

Yeah, absolutely. I think having a home gym is not reasonable for everyone. And I think having you know, some dumbbells and maybe some bands could go a really long way for a lot of people. And, you know, I tell clients, when they sign up, if they've got, you know, 15 pound 20 pound dumbbells, we can work with that for a while, eventually, you're gonna outgrow that, and you're gonna want to either invest in additional weights, or a membership at a gym. And luckily, a lot of the women I work with, there's a planet fitness around somewhere. So that cost them you know, 10 or $12 a month, and they can do that reasonably, and not have to drop hundreds of dollars on on gym equipment. If you can invest in a home gym, I think it's a great option for a lot of people. But there's also value in going to the gym, especially for moms and for dads to get a break a mental break from all of the chaos at home. So it really depends on what is going to work for, for your situation, you know, do you have the finances to invest in equipment? If not, is there a gym that's within a reasonable, you know, distance from you that you can go to?

Philip Pape 11:55

So you're saying it's personalized all of these things? And of course, you, you know, people are overwhelmed. Women are overwhelmed with all these decisions that sort of, you know, somebody like, like Amanda has been through it all, and in some ways, has lived through the experience of every single one of our clients and can bring to bear that experience. So how do we how do we lower this barrier? Then? You talked about a few examples already in terms of planning and time in the gym or whatnot? Are there other things that come to mind? We talk about women who say there's a certain reason or excuse or some explanation that they can't find time or

Philip Pape 12:32

some other reason for getting into fitness? Yeah, well, I think there's a lot that we could dive into there. But I think the biggest or best solution to that is having a plan that is specifically curated to your needs. You know, I have people come to me on calls where, you know, they're looking at potentially working with us for coaching. And they're like, Well, what are the workouts look like? And I'm like, it depends on what does your schedule look like? What equipment do you have access to? On your worst week? How often could you go to the gym, and we take all those things into account when building out their program. On top of that, we do several assessments. So it really is curated to their needs into their body. But having some kind of a plan is, I think the first step in lowering that barrier.

Amanda Cooper 13:30

No matter who you are, follow some kind of a plan, whether that's writing out your workouts in a workout journal yourself, or using a template program. They're not my favorite, but it is better than not going to the gym at all. And optimal, like the optimal plan would be curated to your needs.

Philip Pape 13:51

Sure. Yeah, that's huge. And as the more detailed the better, right. I talked to a client earlier yesterday who she was either warming up too much or not enough. And I said, Are we writing down our warmup sets ahead of time? Oh, no, you know, maybe that would help, right? It's little things like that, as you mentioned, go a long way. And then your other comment about? You know, it depends. How many times does somebody come to you and say, just tell me what I need to do. Like, okay, well, here are the principles. Okay, well, for this principle, what do I need to do for this, this, this this scenario, because that's what I'm going through. Right. And that's where you get to the individual level.

Amanda Cooper 14:28

Yeah, yeah. No, absolutely. And I think a lot of This Just In a lot of the words that we've been using comes down to the like, three core components of behavior change. You know, I think we can all make a lot of excuses as to like, why to not have like, why we don't have time to go to the gym. But I think if it's something you really want to do, it is something that you'll make happen, and I really liked that you said He's just telling me what to do, because I hear that all the time. But the reality is, is us coaches, like, we don't want to coach you forever, right? We want you to build sustainable, lasting changes so that you don't need us forever and ever and ever. And the three, like main components of behavior, change our autonomy, relatedness and competence. So are you taking control over your own journey? And are you plugged into a community? And do you understand like, why you're doing what you're doing? Those are the three main things that are going to drive your motivation, and that are going to keep you consistently working towards these things when you don't want to, you know,

Philip Pape 15:42

cool, so that I'm taking note too, that autonomy relatedness and competence. Yeah, yeah, arc. That's the arc of your story in successful,

Amanda Cooper 15:54

yes, it's actually pulled from the self determination theory, which is basically the theory of motivation. And I could really dive into this right now. But I really think that a lot of coaches come out and say, you know, discipline is more important than motivation. And I really think that that is not accurate at all. It's the kind of motivation that you have that really matters. And if you have these three core components in place, those should be the drivers of your long term behavior change.

Philip Pape 16:28

Got it? Yeah, I've also heard it said that, you know, people think we always need the motivation to take action. And I think you've already alluded to the fact that we just need to have a plan and take that action, and maybe that will produce the results that then give us more motivation, and insight into these principles. So I, I like I like the I've always liked the quote, don't let the perfect don't let perfect be the enemy of the good, I think is what it is, you know what I'm trying to say? Don't let perfection be the enemy of the good, are doing somethings better than nothing. So how do you I've heard some of that in what you've been saying, how do you apply that approach to exercise and training?

Amanda Cooper 17:03

Yeah, so the first thing that we look at is, you know, what are you capable of doing? And what do you have the time and the capacity for? So we're, we're looking at things like your schedule your equipment, do you? Are you going to a gym or are you not, and we're also going to look at your body. So we're going to look at your joint mobility, we're going to look at your baseline strength, so that we can build a program that meets you where you're at. So we're looking at your squat, your deadlift, your push ups so that we're not giving you exercises that you physically cannot do.

Philip Pape 17:42

Yeah, in your Do you have personal trainers on staff? Are you a personal trainer? Amanda?

Amanda Cooper 17:48

Yeah. So I'm a personal trainer strength coach. Yeah, the list the list goes on. But yes, we do it all.

Philip Pape 17:56

And what is what is your what is your thought or opinion or philosophy, I should say, on strength training and resistance training with nutrition, you know, where they kind of meet? What is your philosophy on that?

Amanda Cooper 18:09

Yeah, I think it's funny, I put a poll in my Facebook group the other day about, you know, which is more important diet or exercise, and I didn't specify for weight loss at all. So it's really interesting to see everybody's response. But I think both are really valuable for one reason or another. So nutrition obviously, is going to drive really your response to training. So training is going to really influence your body composition, it's also going to influence your decision making. So exercise has been shown to actually influence your your hunger hormones for one, so hunger cues, and it's also influencing your ability to exercise self control. So they really go hand in hand in so many different ways that, you know, your nutrition might be perfect, but if you're not resistance training, you're probably never going to look, you know, quote, unquote, toned. But if you're training but not doing anything with your diet, again, you're probably never gonna look lean enough to have that toned look. So there's so many components that you really need from both to achieve that that longevity in in your body and the changes that physical like visual changes that most people want to see.

Philip Pape 19:39

Yeah, I love that, that that is so important. It's why I brought it up because I know you're a huge advocate of that. And there there are coaches out there that maybe try to separate the two for whatever reason. And like you said, you can't have one without the other. I know from personal experience when I first built strength for the right way the right way in the first time. I didn't have the nutrition down and I you You know, I was just overweight, but I was a lot stronger overweight. And I had to learn the other piece. You mentioned something about how training affects appetite. For example. Can you elaborate on that?

Amanda Cooper 20:12

Yeah. So they have found that those that consistently exercise actually have decreased appetite. So what the specific context is, I'm not entirely sure right offhand. But essentially, you're able to exercise self control better. And you're not, it will actually influenced cravings. So you won't crave those foods that, you know, most of us do. As much if you're consistently training, how it specifically works, I'm not entirely sure. But it does really influence those, those hunger hormones and your hunger cues. So you're not going to be reaching for those things that maybe don't support your goals as well as something else might. Does that answer your question?

Philip Pape 21:05

Yeah, does I think and it makes a lot of sense if people are listening, just, especially if we're in a fat loss phase, just movement and training can actually stave off the hunger. I think that's, that's awesome. And all of these things seem to help each other. Like it's hard to find a scenario where one sabotages the other in any way. And so what you said is, is makes a lot of sense. What if going back to the you talked about capability and capacity. So from the capacity standpoint, what if you don't have access to a gym like a nicely equipped gym or fancy training program? I know, we talked about a home gym, but what are some alternatives or creative and effective ways to still improve your health and physique?

Amanda Cooper 21:44

Yeah, so I think the first one is walking. And I know you talked about that one a lot. I talked about that one a lot. Walking is probably one of the best things that you could do for your health, especially. And if I could only give someone on one exercise to do it would be walking. But in terms of you know, doing something without a home gym, there's a lot that you can do that would still fall under the umbrella of resistance training at home. You know, if you're a mom, grab your Kids backpack, fill it with some, you know, canned soup and do some squats and do some rows. And you know, it's one of those like, you can still make your environment work for you. If it's something that you really want to do.

Philip Pape 22:33

Yeah, go go back to 2020. And look at all the creative way. And we went to Home Depot to find because they were one of the stores that were open.

Philip Pape 22:41

To build. Seriously. Yeah.

Philip Pape 22:43

Cool. Hey, this is Philip. And I hope you're enjoying this episode of Wits & Weights. If you're finding value in the content and want to stay up to date with all our latest episodes, be sure to hit the Follow button on your favorite podcast platform. By following you'll get notified whenever a new episode comes out. And you won't miss out on knowledge and strategies to level up your health and fitness. All right, let's get back to the episode. It sounds like a lot of this is predicated on the idea that we talked about people tend to make excuses but that there's like an antidote to that in having a plan that's individualized toward you. And that you can take control of your situation. So how do you deal with? How do you deal with people who once they understand that still find ways to sabotage their progress or make excuses or, you know, keep falling off the wagon to have trouble with consistency?

Amanda Cooper 23:35

Yeah, well, one of the first things that I tell people that come to me and say, Hey, I'm just one of those people that keeps falling off the wagon, like I started a program and I stick with it for six to eight weeks. And then I fall off the wagon. I say, you know, the same person that's always falling off the wagon is the same person always getting back on the wagon. So there's a little mindset tweak that can really impact people that are really struggling with that. I'm this person that falls off the wagon. No, maybe identify yourself as resilient. I'm the person that keeps getting back on. And then back to that self determination theory, it's really the theory of motivation and motivation is it is important, like, not the amount of motivation that you have, but the kind of motivation that you have. And there's a whole continuum of extrinsic and intrinsic motivation and the different kinds that you can have. But what's most important is finding what things within your health and fitness journey and within exercise and within changing your diet are actually psychologically fulfilling. They're adding value to your life and you are feeling fulfilled through doing it and you're finding joy through doing it. That is the Like core component of intrinsic motivation. And if you don't have that, and you don't understand what that is, then you probably will keep falling off the wagon, because it's not rooted in your needs and what's going to fulfill you

Philip Pape 25:16

psychologically fulfilling that. So there's a lot you mentioned there, and I'm learning myself, this is good stuff, the idea that you can. So at first I thought you were going to talk about really just relabeling or identifying your future self or your aspirational identity I've heard it called, but you you put a twist on it, that, hey, there are things about your personality or the way you've done things in the past that you can now turn into strengths. Right? If you always get back on the wagon, oh, then you're resilient. So of course, you're just going to keep going and going and going, let's use that. I think that's awesome in people who are listening to maybe inventory, those strengths, most people know them themselves better than anyone else. Right. And those strengths, and then take advantage of those. Awesome, dropping some some truth bombs here, Amanda good stuff. All right. So I want to talk about your assessment process a little bit more. Yeah. And you're like metabolic and physical strength, mobility? What does that look like for someone working with you? Or can someone even maybe do this on their own?

Amanda Cooper 26:18

Yeah, so the big thing that we do is to kick off somebody's program is a metabolic assessment. So we're looking at stress, sleep, how much food they're taking in most women that we work with, are not eating nearly enough food consistently. And so that's the first thing that we look at, because I think nutrition really is going to support the the rest of the process. And so we look at that first. And then we go into their strength and mobility assessment. So we're looking at things like, can you reach your arm overhead? Like if you pulled your arm up straight up overhead? Can you see your ear in front of your arm? If not, you probably don't have great upper, you know, upper body mobility. Either your shoulders are limited, or your thoracic spine is limited. So we're looking at all these things. We're looking at your your cat cow, we're seeing how your spine moves in segments. So does it move pretty well? Is it pretty stiff, and we're also taking into account do you work a desk job, because that's going to influence those things. So we're looking at your squat, we're looking at your deadlift, your pushup, and we're giving you very basic exercises to do to so it's going to be like a goblet squat, or a kettlebell deadlift. So something you can do with a kettlebell or a dumbbell. And then bodyweight exercises, so we can evaluate just your, your motor control. So your ability to actually like, control your joints and control your body through these movements, your core stability. And then we're also looking at your mobility and flexibility. So all of those things are going to influence how we build out a program for you. If you are somebody that maybe doesn't have good shoulder mobility, you can't reach arm overhead, we're gonna give you exercises, one to work on that improve your spinal mobility, improve your shoulder mobility, and maybe instead of giving you an overhead press, or gonna give you an incline bench press, because you're still able to get close to that overhead motion without compromising your your mobility.

Philip Pape 28:35

Yeah, so a couple of things. How do you actually do the assessment on the strength since you're an online coach?

Amanda Cooper 28:40

Yeah. So we have an entire library of exercises and assessment videos that I've done in my studio, Jim, on how to do them, what you should feel what you shouldn't feel how to set them up. All of our videos go into detail on whatever the specific exercise is. So we send clients it's basically laid out as a workout would be on their app. And they look at each video, if it says to record it, we tell them like how to record it, what angle we want to see and then how to do the exercise, it's really simple. It's going to be like standing against the wall and then bringing your arm up overhead. And then we're also going to have you lie on the floor and bring your arm up overhead. So we can kind of get an idea of your mobility, as well as your flexibility, which could be a whole other tangent. We're looking at the videos that you send us to to build out that program. So that's how we we go through that process. Right? Yeah,

Philip Pape 29:43

like people don't understand the logistics of it. And then you mentioned things like when you have a mobility issue, trying to work as close to the full range of motion as possible at the angle or with the implement or variant that you can do, which is good for people to hear because I think some people think Again, in a fixed of a fixed mindset that you are what you are. And what you're suggesting is you can work up to something. So I have a very specific question about the squat, because there's always a little debate on this. Would you rather somebody work up to a full depth squat? By doing full depth squats with like a band, or by doing partial rep squats are getting deeper over time?

Amanda Cooper 30:21

That's interesting question, I'm trying to think of a specific client scenario. So typically, I'm going to look at their bodyweight squat as well as their loaded squat. And that's going to tell me if it's more of a core control issue, or a mobility issue. And so, if they, a lot of times, if clients really struggle with core stability, which a lot of them do, their bodyweight squat might look awful, but you put weight in front of them, it forces them to engage their core, and it can really clean up their squat and make it look a lot better. So we're really finding out what the root of the issue is, I always would rather clients squat to full depth, if they can, if they are very limited in their hip mobility, or their ankle mobility, one, we're going to raise their ankles so that they can squat full depth. But if their hip mobility is an issue, then I would just have them squat to the depth that they can while maintaining a neutral or a flat spine so that we can still progressively load them. You're

Philip Pape 31:35

obviously an expert in all of this. So I want to, I wanted to I knew it wouldn't be a trick question, even though I province demand ahead of time when thrown into questions. And I knew it wouldn't be because she knows what she's talking about. So there you go, I love it. What would you say the value is of having this assessment versus just, this is kind of a rhetorical question at this point, versus just jumping right into like a training program or nutrition, you know, template or something like that.

Amanda Cooper 32:01

Yeah, totally. So I think the first thing is it lessens your risk of injury, you know, having a plan curated for you takes into account all of your potential limitations, as well as current limitations. And then it's also going to incorporate things to improve those things. So if you don't have the ability to reach overhead, we're gonna work on that so that you can. And then on top of that, lessening the risk of injury I think, is really huge. And that's probably because I come from a chiropractic clinic, gym background, but 90%, if not, all of the clients that I see have some kind of history with low back pain, shoulder pain, knee pain, you name it, or they've tried beach body or some other template program and gotten hurt doing it. And that's because they've had either a little instruction on how to properly do the exercise, or they have some underlying mobility issue they didn't know about, or core stability issue. You know, we work with a lot of postpartum women. And usually, you need a decent amount of time postpartum to really regain your core strength. So there's so many things that really influence how a program should be laid out, depending on you and your body. Really.

Philip Pape 33:23

Yeah, I think that's great, because you do hear a lot of people who jump into something and, you know, kudos for people to people for taking action and wanting to improve their health. But there are some complexities here, and there's individualistic things to think about, especially if you're in your 30s 40s 50s. And you've had many years to experiment and beat yourself up with maybe the wrong movements over the years, as I can attest personally. Yeah, I'm talking about my heartstrings with the overhead the constant overhead press, you know, mentions because that's like my favorite movement, so. So for everyone who's been listening, everyone who's listening who has been frustrated or spinning their wheels, or they're struggling to make progress, and they want to get motivated right now, you know, they're listening to this. They're in their car, in the gym, maybe between sets, whatever. They want to get motivated and start improving their health and physique. What's an easy way to do that? How should they start?

Amanda Cooper 34:18

Keep it simple. I think, you know, even myself and what we do, we can really overcomplicate things and tell you, you know, you need a curated plan and all of these specifics. And while there's a lot of value in that, I think moving, getting your body moving is better than nothing. And like I said, Keep It Simple squat, deadlift, overhead press, do the basic movements and progress that over time, don't work through injury don't work through pain, and you will absolutely see In Progress, even if it's not as curated or individualized to your needs, you will still be moving the needle forward in the right direction.

Philip Pape 35:10

Cool. Yeah, I like how you said you said keep it simple move. And then, as part of keeping it simple doing squat deadlift and press, I really appreciate that, Amanda, because, you know, people make excuses like, Oh, these are so complicated and what, but they're so fundamental movements, and we'll go so far and everything you do so awesome. All right. I like to ask this of all my guests, just in case you've been listening to my podcast, maybe not. What one question Do you wish I had asked, and what is your answer?

Amanda Cooper 35:39

Yeah, well, I think, you know, I have two in mind. But I think one we answered really well, and that was, you know, why you shouldn't follow your favorite fits those workout. And, one, that's because usually, the workouts that you see online are meant to get attention. They're not the actual workouts that got that person, their body, and they're not curated to your needs, and not having a plan laid out in front of you. So just following YouTube workouts, your favorite fits Bo's workouts, it's going to pretty easily lead to burnout, because you don't have structure. So it's gonna be really easy to, you know, fall off the wagon, because of that lack of structure. And then the other question I brought you to, was why we why we don't start most people with a barbell in our program. Because I know, there's two very clear ends of the spectrum. There's the very pro barbell barbell every movement, you know, squat deadlift, overhead, press that end, and then you have the complete anti barbell end of the spectrum. And I think I come from more of that end of the spectrum because of my background. But that's not where I sit in my philosophy with my clients, I think I sit somewhere right in the middle. But most of our clients would think it comes back to that gym intimidation, the idea of picking up a barbell, or dropping a barbell I've had clients tell me just that sound is like intimidating to them. So taking that into account, and then taking into account their their mobility and the way that their body moves. Most of the time, we don't start with a barbell deadlift and a barbell back squat or front squat, or a barbell overhead press, we start with more simple like, Well, I think compound movements are simple. They're still intimidating for a lot of people. So we try and bring it back to their needs, psychologically, and their needs physically. So maybe, you know, I need to take into account that Susie doesn't have a bench right next to the squat rack. So I need to pair two exercises together that she can do in one corner of the gym and not feel like she asked to walk around because that's overwhelming for her. So that's part of the reason we don't include a lot of barbell movements when people are just getting started.

Philip Pape 38:21

I mean, it makes total sense. It's consistent with what you said earlier about capability and capacity and meeting people where they're at. And the fact that you are there for them as a coach means you can walk them through that process and step them up to it and get them comfortable. Bit by bit until before you know it, they'll probably tell me if I'm wrong, they'd probably like asking to go into the barbell in some cases.

Amanda Cooper 38:44

Yeah, the goal is definitely to get them there.

Philip Pape 38:48

Yeah, absolutely. And that that's the way to do it. So I really appreciate everything we've gone over today, I've learned quite a few things and ways to frame things myself. I always like to take something out personally. And then the listeners, I'm sure got a ton of value from this episode. So where can listeners learn more about you and your work?

Amanda Cooper 39:08

Yeah, so probably the best place to connect with me and our coaching crew is our free Facebook community, which is ambitious women's fitness secrets. And inside there we've got honestly a ton of free resources but specifically to what we talked about today, you know, we have a Beginner's Guide To Strength Training, if you're feeling intimidated and need that, like extra support. We even include all of the videos on how to do everything so you can go into the gym competently and set up to squat or set up to deadlift.

Philip Pape 39:47

Awesome. So Beginner's Guide To Strength Training, and all the other secrets behind the ambitious women's secrets. The Women's secret fitness, fitness secrets group and Yeah. And I'll include all those links in the show notes so listeners can find you. So Amanda, thank you so much for coming on the show. Yeah,

Amanda Cooper 40:09

absolutely. Thank you for having me.

Philip Pape 40:13

Philip Pape 4/14/23 Philip Pape 4/14/23

Ep 61: How to Periodize Your Training for Peak Performance with Steven Benedict

Today’s guest has encountered every reason to NOT race. From abandonment to abuse, family deceptions, and other distressing events, Steven faced it all and managed to rise. It's amazing that despite everything he went through, he was able to focus and excel at his sport. Tune in and get a behind-the-scenes look at how a professional track and field athlete and Olympic Qualifier’s workout is periodized for peak performance.

Today’s guest has encountered every reason to NOT race. From abandonment to abuse, family deceptions, and other distressing events, Steven Benedict faced it all and managed to rise. It's amazing that despite everything he went through, he was able to focus and excel at his sport.

Steven starts off by sharing his backstory. He then discusses periodization, productional force strength, avoiding fatigue, programming deloads, and more. He shares how he programs and individualizes his workouts and his recommendations on how others can program theirs. Steven also talks about nutrition for athletes and non-athletes.

Steven’s rules for running the race translate to almost every industry, person, and circumstance—and his story is a reminder to all who hear it that so long as you still have breath in your lungs, your race can still be won.

Tune in and get a behind-the-scenes look at how a professional track and field athlete and Olympic Qualifier’s workout is periodized for peak performance.

__________
Schedule your FREE 30-minute Nutrition Momentum Call with Philip here:
__________

Today you’ll learn all about:

[1:56] Steven's backstory
[5:16] Periodization and why athletes use it
[12:35] Progressive volume and individualized programming
[16:07] The athletes that Steven works with and what he helps them with
[17:58] Productional force strength
[19:55] Is it easier to make yourself stronger, than to make yourself lighter?
[21:50] Periodization schemes
[27:58] Tony shares what he likes about Philip and the Wits & Weights community
[29:18] Big lifts for the average lifestyle person who wants to be a better/faster sprinter
[34:13] Avoiding fatigue and overtraining
[37:16] Programming deloads or rest days
[39:44] Nutrition, carb loading and others
[47:22] Hardship in the gym and how it translates into having a stronger mind
[51:29] What excites Steven for the future
[52:25] How to connect with Steven
[53:34] Outro

Episode resources:

Website: www.Stevieyb.com
Instagram: @stevieyb22
Youtube channel: @stevenbenedict879

IG: @witsandweights
Email: philip@witsandweights.com

🥩 Download your Free Ultimate Macros Guide and 50 High-Protein Recipes here

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Transcript

Steven Benedict 00:00

periodization and periodization for people as they should understand where their base is, and then where their tail end is where they want to be in whatever six months 12 months or whatever, and work their way backwards from that.

Philip Pape 00:14

Steven Benedict 02:09

I was on the football field football was pretty dominant for my life as well as some other sports early on. My first sport ever being martial arts, I did 10 years of judo. And that kind of laid the discipline and the foundational aspects of being able to translate into other sports at a high level. But like I said, the track and field coach saw me on the football field when I was a freshman approached my parents, my parents who wanted me to try something different and something new and really wasn't on my radar. And so reluctantly, I jumped in there for my winter season and wound up wound up winning lean county championships as a freshman and it just kind of built up over time. And I really honed in and liked the aspect in the sport that is a one on one sport, it's pretty much you against the clock, and whatever you put into it, you get back from it, you know, obviously, you know, it's a lot different from let's say baseball, football, basketball. Whereas these team Reliance sports, you know, here, it's you running your race, you're in your lane, of course, there's other athletes that are on the track with you, but you're really focusing on what your race model is compared to the other athletes. And if you lose that focus, and you start running their race, automatically, you're putting yourself in the red already. So

Steven Benedict 03:35

that's kind of like the early on stages and and I was able to run in some of the world's most prestigious races across the board from Penn relays, while I was in high school to States and the international races to diamond league REITs and, and then go on to things like Olympic trials and do and then the bigger platform. So it's been a big roller coaster, you know, obviously with not only with my athletic career, but then also my story background, which was, you know, all over the place of things, people see it as well. He's an athlete, he's got it all together, and that was far from it. So I got a lot of loss and a lot of abandonment, you know, growing up through the foster care system and then losing my adopted parents. So there's been quite a bit that have taught me not only through my sports, but also in life, about resiliency and patience and due diligence, and really just focusing and keeping my eye on the prize and, you know, keeping good people around me coaches. And, you know, to my current position today we're on at the tail end of my career and training for my last Olympic Games, which will be Paris and and then I'll shift into and move into something else that will be in correlation to all the knowledge and the hours and Uh, you know, the training aspects that I have been able to put in in this time and try to benefit and bring value to other people's lives.

Philip Pape 05:08

Awesome. So there's a lot there, there's definitely a lot of paths we can take. What what one of the things that sticks out is me is the parallels that you talk about between the the discipline and the practice and the the way that you approach specifically that sport of running, in that you're really racing against yourself, you're competing against yourself, even though you compete against others, at some point, you can't focus on that, it actually reminded me of lifting in a way, right, because I don't know much about running, never have I tried running when I was younger, it's just not not my thing. But I think we can learn a lot from the sport and what you said, of like, if you're a power lifter, or lifter, you can't focus on other people's numbers, because it's really irrelevant to your own performance. So maybe we get into that a little bit more and talk about performance, and then talk about periodization as a model for doing that, because I think there's a lot of relevance there. So we want to start with, you know, what you mean by periodization? Maybe, and why athletes or lifestyle trainees would use it?

Steven Benedict 06:08

Yeah, I think, you know, well, first and foremost, periodization, it is very relevant to the period in which you are in your life, and how that translates to your your, whether it be lifting or your, your specific kind of goal setting or specific kind of movement or modalities that you're doing, you know, whether it be lifting, whether it be running, whether it be, you know, on the field playing soccer, you know, we only see so me putting my cell phone on the chopping block is, we only see for us, you know, since track and field is not as marketed in this in the States, you only really see like the World Championships, where you see the Olympics, every four years, every two and a half years, something like that, depending on the big meats, you don't see what goes on behind, and you don't really see all of the constant due diligence that these athletes are putting in, and the coaches in order to have our peak at those games, but also at the championships are so you know, so in specific for me, like, you know, September, usually September we start and it's just base work, you know, it's just really putting our body back into movement flow and, and learning how to run again, and, you know, kind of kind of trying to pick up where our previous season ended, and implement that early in the season. So that we're kind of moving forward, we're not starting back to yours, you know, we're starting where we left off after our break. So we have the rest, we have that whole aspect of recovery, that downtime, that disconnect, and then we plug back in, kind of recharging our batteries, but our periodization and periodization for people as they should understand where their base is. And then And then where their tail end is where they want to be in whatever, six months, 12 months or whatever, and work their way back backwards from that.

Philip Pape 08:12

Yeah, yeah. And I was gonna ask about that, you know, it seems like you want to reverse engineer from an event or a peak. I mean, we do that with nutritional periodization as well, right? You have a goal, you work back from there, whether it's lose weight, or build muscle or whatever. So what about how does specificity and adaptation play into that right into how you periodized someone's programming or that that phase, knowing that you have this skill that you have to develop, but you also have other things that support that like strength, power, speed, and so on. Yeah,

Steven Benedict 08:42

of course. First, first and foremost foundational aspects, you know, if we left off on a good note, or we're going in and they're coming in from scratch one I need to know what their predisposed situations were any of their if they have any ailments or anything like that. Any previous injuries or surgeries or anything that has been chronic or ongoing, so that we can really address those because they probably haven't gone away. They're probably just hibernating right now until things start to build up and we start adding on weight or we start pushing the pace on things or anything like that. So

Philip Pape 09:24

is that what I have a hibernating shoulder? Yeah, that's that's the word. Okay. Okay. Well, however

Steven Benedict 09:31

name shoulder I've had, you know, hibernating Achilles, I've had issues and it wasn't really until I stepped back and really addressed those things in back. Okay, well, this has been chronic and it's been going on for look like let's say, I'm good through the beginning phases of my training where the foundational aspects is great. And then I move on into kind of like, the strength and power development but when I get into speed stuff that's when things start to kind of show up, right, and when the post kind of wear and tear thing show up, but as for other people, it's just kind of the same thing as, as we push the needle, things are to show up and, and your body starts to show it's kind of true colors, right? It starts to become transparent, and transparency with clients and, and also, when I work with anybody is super vital on you know, I don't need you to be a superstar, you're not trying to impress me, I've already performed at a high level. So that's it, there's no kind of ego aspect here. But, you know, in that space is understanding Foundation, understanding, patience, understanding the little things of accumulation into the bigger things like movement correction, and understanding like so for runners, it's, it's a lot of feet issues that contribute to going up there to the, the, the chain of things through their knees, through the hamstrings, through their hips, all the way up through their scapular and stuff. So and I think a lot of runners don't understand that, as you know, we start from the bottom of the foundation work up, not where the point of kind of hurting or the kind of, you know, debilitation is, so, you know, there's a lot of writing down notes, notes, taking and building relationship and rapport with people, whether you know, the athlete or the weekend warrior, anything, understanding that at the beginning, like this is a long term game, just use it as a long term gain and understanding that each phase is a phase for the coinciding phases to come. So that's, you know, part of the periodization thing, and that foundational piece is super important. For for any athlete, I mean, for our track and field athletes, it's, it's vital. If our, if our, if our preseason is terrible, it's going to show up, come around March, march ish. When we start getting into spikes, and we start pushing and start pushing the paces a bit, if we haven't done the rehab stuff, and the the foundational strength stuff, we're gonna blow we'll so to say.

Philip Pape 12:28

So in this in this preseason is there, I mean, a lot of what you're telling me sounds like, definitely, if you had a coach, they're going to be able to individualize and understand the subtleties with you, and bring their fresh pair of eyes and expertise to it. But even if somebody's wanting to do this on their own, who's maybe it's the first time and they're not at that elite level? Is there? Is there a model that we follow in the preseason of a certain stacked level of things to focus on like, okay, take take two or three weeks and go through this checklist, and make sure you can get out of it here, you know, this level of health or performance? And then that tells you ready to go to the next phase? is can it be simplified to that level? Like, hey, maybe you could write a book about it?

Steven Benedict 13:10

Yeah, I think, um, you know, I think in layman's terms in simple ways, you know, quantity to quality type of mind frame, yes, you know, there's a lot of volume early on, but it's not, it's, it's progressive volume, it's not a, let's dump the dump truck on you all, all in one phase, and then then you're worth nothing, come the next month or the next, you know, the next four weeks after the first four weeks as far as program design and kind of progression in that one foundational strength and, and then strength, endurance, strength, power, and then you know, quality, which is whether it be speed reps or anything on that sense. So there's like, kind of like four building blocks, they're dependable on the over encompassing goal, or the, the athlete in or the subject in question. But, you know, overall wise, you know, it's, it's really a foundational piece and building out the spaces of, you know, like those blocks and, and not rushing those blocks. They could be for one person that that block could be four weeks, or the other person, it could be six to eight weeks, depending on their learning curve. And you know, how much they really need to know. I am usually in the six to eight weeks span of people and then the time and, and to give them that adaptation period of their body to understand movement. And then, you know, in the beginning, I recommend somebody to have somebody alongside them at all times, or at least accountability wise, if they're new to space, justice. They can learn, right? It's like going to school. For me, my coaches are invaluable, right, I need the eyes on me, because I can't see myself run. But I'm very good at making adjustments with cues given to me. And that becomes body awareness and that, you know, conversational aspects of understanding, you know, how the coach can relate to their athlete, and how they can translate what the coach is telling them into movement, or mindset, kind of the the Brain Body connectivity aspect of things.

Philip Pape 15:35

Yeah. And I think that's important, what you're saying to people listening, because I hear a lot of the time, you know, I'll get a coach when I need it, or when I need to fix something or whatever. And you're like, just get the coach from the beginning, because you're gonna cut out months or years of mistakes and poor habit forming. And I've experienced that personally, when, you know, my squat was terrible for years. And then I got a coach and in one day, you know, if he helped me fix things, let's So one question I have is you work exclusively with runners and endurance athletes?

Steven Benedict 16:04

No, not not, not specifically. I mean, sprinters, yes. But I mean, I've handled athletes across the board, from NFL players, to soccer players, to martial artists. So mine is more of kind of the over. What I like to what I like to see is one I know and I believe that sprinters are an overall package of an athlete, right, you can take them and pretty much because of their based on what they've done through power and strength and explosiveness and movement, you can take them and plant them in any other sport, all they would have to do is learn the modalities of that sport.

Philip Pape 16:49

Do you mean the skills of that sport basically skills of

Steven Benedict 16:51

that sport, whether it be soccer, you know, be becoming more pliable in and versatile in their dribbling, football, you know, obviously, being able to take a hit and, you know, a lateral and vertical movement. So it's like, learning those aspects. But as far as the core basic things of power, strength, explosiveness, that translates to pretty much every sport that's needed, in some way, shape, or form. And so, it not only runners, but I've done a lot of corrective exercise things, strength and conditioning, and then also work through the chain of rehab and stuff, too. So overall, overall aspects. But I would say my expertise from my practical knowledge is probably through the modalities of running and, and sprinting. And

Philip Pape 17:43

the Yeah, it's good, good to know, to put it in context. And then also, as we talk about periodization, what exactly we're talking about, because we could get very narrow and say, you know, periodization, for a powerlifting meet, or periodization, for an athlete overall. But even there's general principles. So would you agree that, for example, you talked about strength, power, endurance, all of these attributes? Is strength of foundation is straight? I don't wanna say the most important, but is it the foundation of all of these?

Steven Benedict 18:10

Um, it depends on what type of strength we're talking about, right? Are we talking about like power, strength? Or brute strength? Are we talking about production of force? Strength? Yeah, yeah, production of force strength? I would, I would say, yes, across the board, is being able to utilize how much force we're applying in order to use the strength that we build in the gym, in real in real life situations. Right. And I think a lot of the times, you know, you have power lifters, but those even power lifters, I know, you know, I've had, you know, several friends that were very prolific in powerlifting. And you can take those guys and put them on the track, and they'll be able to run pretty damn well, if they just learned the mechanics a little bit better, you know, cycling and, and force production in that. So I think it's utilizing the things that we its capabilities of being able to utilize strength and functional ways. So it's like functional power sharing, I think that's kind of like what people are seeking right now, in overall health wise and trying to be functional in life, right, but strong functional, and they get the misconception of I'm going to be in the gym, and I'm going to be this house. And I'm going to turn into you know, this big body builder. And it's like, you don't have, you know, the DNA to do that. And it's going to take years and years and years and years to even, you know, build up that type of density.

Philip Pape 19:45

Absolutely, yeah, absolutely. And even even when I've worked a few with a few nutrition clients who are endurance athletes, the question always came up of, you know, the focus is always on the running and very little put into the strength. You And hey, I need to lose lose weight. So I'm faster. And then the question I have is why don't we just spend a little time getting stronger when that make a massive improvement? Because to me, it's I think, in terms of math, right, you know, strength to weight ratio, isn't it easier to make yourself a lot stronger than to make yourself a lot lighter? I mean, what are your thoughts on that?

Steven Benedict 20:17

Yeah, and I think, for me particular A, it's in the space of, you know, track and field sprinters. It's always, you know, it is a strength and it switches from the frame to power light frame powerful, what you have to build that power early in the season, and then switch gears and worry about having a light frame, because you've already built that base and that internal engine of things. So I do agree that yes, we need the internal engine before we go out and start trying to hit the gas on anything. But, and I also think that you know that that strength piece is super important for healing situations and strengthening other elements around ligaments and joints, and just overall body and bone density, which a lot of people lose, because they don't like to lift and they're afraid of lifting because of the, you know, like we said do because of the, you know, the misconceptions around it,

Philip Pape 21:29

you know, you're speaking my language. Because even in the context of people just wanting to get fit and lose weight, oftentimes a conversation is, well, you can't you can't reveal muscle, you can't get lean, if it's if the muscles not there, if the strength and the muscle are there. And by the way, being stronger is going to improve all these other issues you may be having. So it kind of translates to all of these areas. What about periodization schemes? So again, I think in terms of lifting of things like simple linear progression to undulating and black, you know, these non traditional types of periodization schemes for lifting Do you have those kinds of models in the world? We're talking about here?

Steven Benedict 22:07

Yeah, um, as far as the schemes and stuff, I mean, and again, you know, it really depends on the subject. So I'm pulling from my own pages of personal aspects, because we don't have a subject right now. But, you know, for us, it is heavy volume, like right now I'm in the gym twice a week, and then on the on the track the other probably four days out of the week. So it's a six day model right now. And we're really focusing on so some of the movements and the scheme aspects or, you know, we work on our own, we work off of our own bodyweight, right. So for our squats, and things like that, it'll be you know, starting maybe like 55% of our body weight, and then we're working our way up that, you know, building up those areas, building up the areas that are most beneficial to us, and moving horizontally down the track, vertically. So a lot of our posterior chain is viable to us. And then important to us. So hamstrings, hips, hip flexors, things like that, lower extremities, our ankles, and our Achilles and, you know, foot strength, getting them as hard as possible. But the schemes that we're working on is, you know, roughly around a four to six week space, that fifth week is a test week. And then the sixth week is kind of a taper down week where we're not doing any weights, and we're on the track. And we'll kind of try to do a race model of kind of our body in that.

Philip Pape 23:50

When you say test week test, test, testing, your lifts are testing your your skill based on the strength. Yeah,

Steven Benedict 23:56

yeah, we're testing both. So we'll do best at the beginning of the week, like on a Monday, and then come back on a Thursday or Friday, with light flush sessions in the in the middle of the week, and come back and run, I don't know maybe like a split 400 or, you know, or a hot 300 and just push to see where our bases that come of all the strength that we've built up and the modalities that we built up in there and like, you know, all the different drills and things that we're incorporating. So it's pretty technical on the back end, and, and my coaches are overseas right now. So we converse on an app, and all of the athletes are on that. So they actually write out our programs and we go through that and then we can converse in there if we have any questions and they track things like our heart rate, and I wear an aura ring to DPS, so I'm trying to get pretty accurate on the numbers and you know, burning calories on a daily basis to know what I have to put back in. But Uh, I mean, again, it's, it's, it's really subject to subject matter. And

Philip Pape 25:06

it is, but I'm so cute. I was such a nerd about this stuff. And like, it's my podcast, I like to ask whatever I want. And so I don't know. And I don't know if the listeners, you know, tune me out sometimes, but that's what I like. So I like to dig into that just a little you said percentage of your body weight. But if somebody's a lot stronger than another athlete, are they? Are they using a higher starting percentage of their body weight? Or how does that work?

Steven Benedict 25:28

Um, no, not at the beginning at the beginning, because, you know, we're all I think at the beginning, we're all coming in with a clean slate. And because we're coming off of rest period, so we're not trying to push it. But then as, as that goes forward, the body weight aspect gets interchange with kind of one rep max percentages, yeah, percentages, and things like that. So we start interchanging plugs, and putting them in so then we start to work our way. So then it's like one rep max at 55% 75% 80%. I don't think we ever really go 100%.

Philip Pape 26:12

So you never test the one room. It's like an estimate,

Steven Benedict 26:15

yet estimated, but the only time that will test is on that fifth week.

Philip Pape 26:20

Okay, so So I was wondering, you test the winner? Yeah,

Steven Benedict 26:23

yeah, we'll test it there and just kind of get a big push in there. And only on of our, our big movements are big complex movements, you know, whether, you know, it'd be full squat or quarter squat, usually quarter squats are are more beneficial for sprinters, you know, we're just focusing on kind of that push an explosion out of the blocks. So they're more beneficial for us on the back end, and things like a hex bar deadlift, and then max, vert Max, and just being pushed off the ground. So you know, sports specific things in my space, and then and then for other athletes, depending on their stuff. So like some of the athletes that I've done, their combines for, for the NFL, obviously, it's, you know, geared towards

Philip Pape 27:14

what another thing is 40,

Steven Benedict 27:17

you know, standing long, you know, stretching and stuff like that. But even in that we I really pick up the spaces in which I feel we pick up the top three, because well, that's where they'll gain the most points in and they'll gain the most knowledge, the most kind of ahead of the curve pushing if they can be good in three areas of that test. So it's usually like the 40 the bench, and a vert Max.

27:46

My name is Tony from a strength flipped or my 40s Thank you to Phil in his Wits, & Weights community for helping me learn more about nutrition and how to implement better ideas into my strength training. Phil has a very, very good understanding of macros, and chemical compounds and hormones and all that and he's continuously learning. And that's what I like about Phil, he's got a great sense of humor. He's very relaxed, very easy to talk to. One of the greatest things about Phil, in my view is that he practices what he preaches. He also works out with barbells. He trains heavy, not as heavy as me, but he trains heavy. So if you talk with him about getting in better shape, eating better, he's probably going to give you some good advice. And I would strongly recommend you talk with him and we'll help you out. Thanks.

Philip Pape 28:30

Okay, yeah, see some of those guys pounding up to 20 fives for you know for sure, whatever. What. So another question came to mind about the lifts itself. You mentioned like quarter squats. So now I'm interested in what kind of lifts are really effective for sprinters. And then also how a sprinter sprinter straining would compare to like a marathon runners training. You know, and just as a side tangent, there was just a study that came out comparing half squats and full squats for which which muscles are the most not not activation, right? Because sometimes that can be misleading, but actual development. And you know, some things were obvious, like full squats, work the glutes more, but like half squats, work the quads more. So it's interesting, you mentioned that what are some of the big lifts for like an average lifestyle person listening who wants to be a better and faster sprinter?

Steven Benedict 29:20

So I would, if you're, I mean, if they're not competing, and they're just looking to kind of like run fly fast or in any space, one for us, it's all posterior chain. Male quads are great. But if you look at science and if you look at some of the past results of some of the best sprinters across the board, you know, the guys with very deep and developed hamstrings are guys that are able to push down the track and get and get out of the blocks a lot quicker and have more cycle and ground impact on through their stride. So So I'm a big believer in developing the posterior chain a lot, so hamstrings, glutes, and then anything that will help pull horizontally out of blocks so hip flexors, you know, and then the lower extremities of my ankles and calf raises and, and Achilles areas, but then also being able to translate some of that stuff onto the field. So barefoot running, squatting barefoot, you know, really getting those, those cushions that divide us from feeling what the floor looks like in actual pushing, and actual producing force. We do a lot of that, and I take a lot of that stuff out.

Philip Pape 30:44

Like do you squat shoes? Or not? I

Steven Benedict 30:46

don't I use I do have them. I do have them. But I rather squat in my socks and barefoot Got it? Got it. Yeah, I just feel like, I feel like I get more of I can feel the chain, I can feel my, the way I'm pushing. And I'm from pushing flat through the, the flat part of the foot and utilizing every chain of the back or every muscle throughout the chain up the back or there. Or if I'm shifting, I can feel my base a lot better. When I'm when I'm flexing.

Philip Pape 31:17

Yep. So, so. So something like hamstrings, right? For me, it comes to mind would be like RDLs or good mornings or I mean bodybuilding movements like a leg curl or maybe you know, lat leader lateral movements like step ups or reverse lunges or semi what what would you say are the, like top two or three for the average person to work on?

Steven Benedict 31:38

Without a doubt? Definitely Single Leg RDL single rails. I'm a huge lover and believer of Nordic hamstrings. Oh, yeah. Nordics are like, a necessity for any of that type of program, not only for building out density and strength and hamstrings, but also helping out with rehab of, you know, pre kind of rehab of things, you know, and it stretches out the hamstrings and the the insertions on the top of the hamstring. So you keep them nice and long. Because you're doing a lot of hamstring work, especially hamstring curls and stuff like that. A hamstring gets a lot of bunching up, so to say in those areas. So it helps to keep them long and flexible.

Philip Pape 32:28

So hold on on that movement. How do you do? How do you like to do them? Like the bar on the rack? Or a special machine?

Steven Benedict 32:34

Yeah, no, I have, I usually do with a bar on the rack, or if I can have somebody hold my, my my ankles and give me that extra pressure. But I usually do them on the bar on the rack. But also having a I'm a big believer in also having a variable squat program. So you know, one week, quarter squats twice a week, one week, full squats twice a week. And I think that helps out with the lack of adaptation, but it helps with you know, mobility in helping the body to understand the depths of squatting and able to produce more force at different levels.

Philip Pape 33:19

And what what squat is as low bar high bar, some front squats. Yeah,

Steven Benedict 33:23

um, so I mean, I do I do front squats, quarter squats and full squats. So front squats and so it'll be four front squats will be in my program pretty consistently. And then the other switching variable will be either quarter squats or full squats. So one of those interchange every other week.

Philip Pape 33:46

Okay. Are you doing them high? High bar or low bar?

Steven Benedict 33:50

Well, no, do low bar. Okay, cool.

Philip Pape 33:52

All right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay, cool. No people listening, you know, these are good, good ideas. The Nordic the Nordic camps, the Nordic curl is underrated, you know? Maybe not underrated, just not as well known. Right. And it's, it's cool that you mentioned that. So how do we, how do we avoid fatigue and overtraining? That's a big thing in my world, especially at work a lot of older folks. And that's, and I'm an older getting to be an older folk. And I know you know, your body gets a little more beat up as he as yours. Yeah,

Steven Benedict 34:22

yeah, I think you know, one is understanding recovery and knowing that that's a part of your training as well, that it's not just the hour, hour and a half, two hours that you're in the gym, whatever, you know, your program, you know, keeps you in there for but then understanding that once you go home or whatever you do post that is very important for the day's post that to come. And that includes things like rest and recovery and nutrition, and whatever else that you can get your hands on, you know, and then it becomes body awareness and always knowing your limits. Because obviously, as you as you get older, you're, you know, I put us in a space of like, we're all these batteries, right. And I don't know if you ever have seen like the Energizer batteries or anything that used to have that power strip on the thing and tells you how much is left in there. That's kind of like, that's kind of how I dictate what athletes are, or, you know, across the board, you know, or general purpose, you know, this is this is your boundary capabilities, this is how much you have in it, and you need to understand is, when you're getting to that halfway mark, is that, yes, we can do maintenance in that space, but also plugged back in, so that we can kind of hopefully try to stay within the 80 to 85% range throughout the week, instead of having 180 5%. Or to, and by Friday or Saturday, you know, you're tapped out and you have nothing left, we need to try to prolong our progression over the course of the week. And that made me to shift in, in what we're doing, we may need to take something out of the program, during the weeks, or we may need to take add something like a recovery day, like a flush day that is just re charging yourself. But that really becomes a space of understanding yourself, and being able to communicate that with your coach correctly. And saying like, hey, you know, and the coach needs to be aware, too, you know, they need to see that things are dropping off, that they're coming in fatigue, they're blown fumes and, and that their job is to get the most out of their athletes as much as possible, and not burn them out. Because it's their ego trip of things. So I think there's a fine line and balance. But the recovery piece is is a vital, vital, vital part to any any performance program.

Philip Pape 37:05

For sure. not pushing too hard. And like you said, by using biofeedback or being aware of yourself and communicating that What about do you program it in as part of periodization? You program in D loads? Or are you more I know, some people some coaches prefer to, to do it as they go right, like to only use a D load if needed, because you don't want to slow down the progress if the person is perfectly fine. What's your take on that?

Steven Benedict 37:27

Yeah, you know, I usually I usually implement at least the fourth week as a D load. Okay. So I'll go three weeks on for the fourth week is kind of a D load and a preparing for another four weeks post that I think that that's a pretty good model. Now. I, I believe that, you know, some of the younger athletes can go a little longer, you know, and but each athlete is different to you. You have to, like a lot of the new things will tax people very quickly. So that needs to be taken into account for as well. And sometimes, you know, you just need to implement it during those weeks to prolong past four weeks is like hey, you know, you do something like a scheme of two days, Monday, Tuesday on Wednesdays off and then there's a Friday on and then Saturday, Sunday off? Right? I think those three days off, and those four days on will help prolong things depending on how aggressive the program is, as well. So I think there's a lot of kind of Windows, you can throw in there. Sure. But I really like to go three weeks hard. The first two weeks are hard. And then that third week is kind of a build up week for that fourth week where that fourth week could be, you know, maybe one hard session on may come back,

Philip Pape 38:57

keep the intensity high of the volume low. Right? Yeah, it's cool. So So you're talking about the generally fixed D low programmed in, maybe if you're younger, you can go a little bit longer. You also mentioned even during the week, maybe undulating the volume, which speaks to me because I just I just switched from a four day kind of West Side programming where you're, you really don't ever take D loads because the concept is you're varying the big lifts constantly and you never quite get fatigued on any one lift. But it does catch up to you. And so I moved to now heavy light medium, so the middle of the week is a much lighter day than the other two. It kind of gives you that recovery. So it's pretty cool. I you know, people listening to take all that to heart from it so that they can beat it for the long game. What about nutrition? Things like I'm always fascinated with concepts like carb loading because I know the science keeps seems to keep changing. There's been all these complicated schemes about carb loading and it seems a science is like no, it's pretty simple. Just like ramp it up and then eat a ton of carbs for the event. But what Tell me about that,

Steven Benedict 39:57

yeah, gosh, contrition space, everybody's got, you know, one, this is a really, really touchy space for everybody because it's so it's so flooded with all these gurus of, hey, do this diet, do that diet and there's all these, you know plethora of diets out there. Now first and foremost, before you jump on any diet one, diets are interchangeable. And I think they have their place and their space at particular times depending on what your training needs are, and how, how high the volume is, right? I think a lot of the space in which diets are and you say you talk about carb loading? Well, what what period of training are you in like, so if I'm talking about carb loading, and, you know, perhaps it's my race season, and I have a race early later in the week, maybe some extra carbs to a midpoint in the week would be great if I'm racing on like a Friday, Saturday, but then I need to taper that off. Right? Because I don't want to go into a race heavy and feeling water retention or having a spill over. Yeah, and having, you know, gi problems now. So. So one, I would highly recommend one is getting at the beginning of the season, or the beginning of your program is getting a blood test, getting a panel done, understanding what blood type you are, and then trying to coincide your eating with what blood type you are. So you know, which is really not a lot of people go that route, it is a little more in integral of the all the inner workings of things, but understanding what type of blood you are and understanding how your insides work in what is most. Most your body will consume the best in performance wise, because you know, like, right. So everybody understands that if you're giving the same diet to somebody else, and you're eating, let's say, a bunch of carbs, and you feel sluggish, you're not, you're not producing and your body is metabolizing. Alright, well, obviously something in there isn't working for your system, or your DNA nutrition. So, you know, sitting down with industry, I'm not a nutritionist, so I don't even you know, I have nutritionists, for me, and the spaces of doing blood work first is really is really helped me out a lot. You know, I'm a meat eater, I need meat, I need the B vitamins. On the back end, I cannot do vegetarian or plant based. I do have plant based shakes that I do in the morning because I feel like they absorb well for me in the morning. But as far as recovery aspects of things, B vitamins, like buffalo burgers, and bison burgers, those really helped me to keep the inflammation down in my body from that space, and then you know, high protein like eggs and chicken and fish and stuff like that. So

Philip Pape 43:03

and optimal nutrition whey protein, right?

Steven Benedict 43:09

That's what I use. Yes, yeah.

Philip Pape 43:10

Oh, you did plant protein. Okay, yeah, I

Steven Benedict 43:13

do the plant protein with them. But then I also do, they do have little RTDs that I keep in my bag for post training that our way. So those are really eat, those are really easy for me to throw in. But, you know, it's really that's that's the end to is understanding your, your particular type of DNA and the way and what diet is going to coincide with your training, but also your metabolism as best as possible. Because in a lot of those spaces is that, you know, if you're eating the wrong things, it's going to slow your your metabolism down, and then you're gonna gain and then you're then you're gonna be pointing the finger at everybody. So

Philip Pape 43:50

yeah, yeah, first of all, you're making me hungry. It's almost dinnertime here. And bison burgers are. Agree. But yeah, I mean, the general principle, you know, people, people are always going to disagree on specific diets. And I'm a nutrition coach. I'm not a nutritionist, but I'm an addition coach. And for me, it's all about flexibility, because I want the client to have something that works for them. And that responds well, there's a guy I am friends with, and I was kind of working with him on the side and so Manny, you're really getting a lot of fat and not nearly enough carbs and you're doing all this lifting. And he's like, alright, let's let's try more carbs. He's like, I just cannot live on that many carbs. I can eat him. I'm sluggish. I don't feel good. Let me go back to high fat he did and he was fine. And it's like, everybody's different. There's no one size fits all. So that's good. I was just really curious about carb loading specifically, because what is it you know, Alan Aragon he writes the flexible dieting stuff. Oh, yeah. He like summarize the evidence on this just a few months ago on the carb loading and I was kind of blown away by how many, how many grams of carbs that you possibly could eat as an athlete, you know, and kind of reduce the protein going into an event. I was just curious. But like you said to me,

Steven Benedict 45:02

for me, I really like to keep my, my high calories and my carbs. So I'm roughly taking in about 3400 calories a day, right? Well, which is pretty high. And but my particular frame of the way I post my days is, I'll keep my, my high carbs and everything is when I'm going to utilize them right as as pre workout in the morning, and then post workout. And then I'll have 1/3 1/3 meal kind of mid day. And then as the day goes on, I taper off, and I don't have any carbs. And I'll do like salad and fish and things that absorb quicker. And then I try to cut off my eating no later than seven, you know, to just get my body into a fast a bit and, you know, to promote growth hormone to the body and stuff like that when I'm sleeping, so I can get that deep sleep. But that's what works for me. And that's where I feel the lightest. And that's where I feel like I'm gaining the most amount of could I eat all day? Sure, I could eat all day. I mean, I can go through probably two pizzas by myself, Oh, man.

Philip Pape 46:13

It's funny, because I'm right around 3500 calories myself, but I'm at the very end of the six month building phase, and I'm sick of it. I actually want to be on a diet. It's funny, people hear that. But, you know, the body fights itself, you know, wants to get back to some sort of balance. Right? And

Steven Benedict 46:32

the flexibility pieces is super important, like you said, you know, is is one, you know, it's a flexible balancing, you know, yes, there's a number there. And, yes, you need to know how much output you have in order to bring back the input in on a daily basis. But that number gets people really kind of blown out of the water, you know, when you say 3534 and calories, like, oh, no, I'm gonna get so fat. You need to work your way up to it. Like it's not like a lot tomorrow and have 3400 calories when you've only been eating 15 1600.

Philip Pape 47:06

Exactly, yeah, your body has to adapt up to that for sure. But all right, I do want to ask one mindset question, then a couple wrap up, if that's all right. So, you know, you overcame all these obstacles, by your late 20s. And you used all this to stay focused. So what are your thoughts about hardship in the gym, and how it translates, you know, the gym in the track, and how it translates to having a stronger mind stronger thoughts, you know, just like attacking life, because you went through that physical hardship.

Steven Benedict 47:39

I think hardship builds resilience, and then also exposes us to figuring out solutions internally, that will show up externally. And what I mean by that a lot of times is one, you have to understand that there's not going to be a perfect, you're not going to have a perfect day ever. And you're not going to have consent, you can have consistency. But even in that consistency, you're still going to have pitfalls. And I think by having those peaks and valleys, and in my own life, they've helped me to translate to a lot what I've done in sports, and also to let go of things and not to be so emotional, on, on the failures. And and really, I call it kind of celebrating the little wins and being a gold digger. And what I mean by that is just, you know, in every situation, there's there's a silver lining, right? Like, there's something that did go well, even if it's the most miniscule piece, something did go well. And you're like, hey, you know what, that one? Well, well, this went terribly. But this went well. And I think that's a that's a shift in which, you know, it's very, it's very hard to come by, and it's very hard to focus on because our brain wants to focus on the negative, and it wants to pull in all the things that went wrong. While we know that there's a win there. And we let that space kind of, we let that space just sit to the side. And we don't celebrate that enough. Like even even if we get promotions, even if we get a PR or anything like that. It's it's in that moment. And it's like, hey, great. Let's move on to the next one. Where, what how can I run faster? How can I lift heavier, right? Like you don't, we don't live in that space enough. And I've really kind of tried to focus on that space and develop that type of mindset of whatever happened yesterday happened yesterday, and I'll leave it there. Now. Today's a new day. I have a new platform, a new canvas to put forth a better a better foot and also a better effort. So every time I'm on the track, I'm trying to to push the pace, right? I was like, yes, that's great. And I think if we get into that space of how can we push the pace? How can we become better on a daily basis? We force our bodies to put our best foot in our best efforts. And that shows up, I think it shows up.

Philip Pape 50:18

Yeah, no, I like that. Celebrating small wins, pushing yourself reset resetting each day. And even what resonated with me is the idea that if you can celebrate those wins the next time you struggle with that same thing. And recall that you have the win. It can kind of push you through like me, it could be something as simple practical as you're working on a lift, and you do it really well, one day, and the next day, it just feels like trash. Well, you did it well, the day before. So you there's something has changed. And that's okay, let's let's find it and fix it and move forward.

Steven Benedict 50:47

Right? It's sort of doing reflection right now, like I could. And that's a huge thing, too, is like looking back six months before to where you are now. Like a I remember six months, I couldn't even lift this off the ground. And now I'm lifting what, two, three plates off the ground. So like that, in a sense is like, wow, you know, I need to take hold of that.

Philip Pape 51:10

It's probably way more than two and three plates for you. But no, I'm just kidding. I'm just kidding. So So I like to ask this question of all guests. And that is, what one question Did you wish I'd asked? And what's your answer?

Steven Benedict 51:25

You wish I've asked. Um, I think one of the one questions that you I wish you would ask is What am I? What am I excited about for the future?

Philip Pape 51:39

Okay, what are you excited about for the future?

Steven Benedict 51:41

The things I'm most excited about for futures, one, transitioning into something new that that is going to benefit from the years of experience that I've had, and then also looking forward into new kind of like, home living have. I just got engaged. So congrats. I'm looking forward to having the married life and seeing what that's about. And, you know, just having a counterpart to walk things out with.

Philip Pape 52:13

Yeah, I personally can vouch for it. It's been a great experience for me. So welcome to the club. Cool, cool. All right. So last thing, where can listeners learn more about you and your work?

Steven Benedict 52:22

Yeah, definitely. So I have my new website is about to be launched. It's WWE dot Stevie b.com, ste vieyb.com. And it's going to be super interactive. All the things that I have coming up, it'd be a schedule there, whether the events or charities that I'm involved with, or, you know, races that I have come up, and then all of the other things that are developing on the back end of, you know, just trying to give as much as I've learned out,

Philip Pape 52:53

cool, so that's www.stvieyb.com. Correct. That's gonna make it a little bit tricky spelling. So make sure people know. And I'm going to, of course, include that in the show notes. Anyways, we're going to tap on it. And Steven, this has been a really cool experience and learning experience for me, because an area I don't get to talk a lot about, and you're obviously an expert in the area. So I'm grateful you came on the show. Thank you very much.

Steven Benedict 53:18

I appreciate you guys having me and I look forward to you know what the future holds for you guys.

Philip Pape 53:23

Awesome. Thanks so much. If you've been inspired by today's interview, and are ready to take action and build momentum on your health and fitness journey, just schedule a free 30 minute nutrition momentum call with me using the link in my show notes. I promise not to sell or pitch you on anything, but I will help you gain some perspective and guidance so we can get you on the right track toward looking and feeling your best

Philip Pape 4/11/23 Philip Pape 4/11/23

Ep 60: Strength and Programming for Maximum Gains at Any Age with Andy Baker

Today we’re examining the world of programming and coaching with my special guest, Andy Baker. We get into programming principles for lifters of different ages and experience levels, whether your goal is to improve strength, performance, or body composition, or just have fun but effective workouts. We also talk about Andy’s career as a coach, training principles and methods, and what he’s been up to lately.

If you don’t already know him, Andy Baker is a highly sought-after strength coach, personal trainer, competitive raw and drug-free powerlifter, and co-author of two best-selling books on strength training.

Andy’s books and programming changed my life when I finally figured things out and got my act together back in 2020 and did my first novice linear progression with Starting Strength. I’ve since run several of his programs, my favorite being The KSC Method for Power-Building, and I’ve been a group client of his Baker Barbell Club since 2021.

_________
👩‍💻 Schedue your FREE 30-minute Nutrition Momentum Call with Philip here.
________

Today you’ll learn all about:

[3:20] Why Andy specializes in barbell workouts
[9:49] Andy's friendship and collaboration with Mark Rippetoe
[13:54] Rewriting "Practical Programming" and which areas Andy covered
[18:17] His approach to programming
[22:04] Programming differences and mistakes of beginner to advanced lifters
[25:39] When NOT to follow the Starting Strength novice linear progression
[27:32] Benefits of strength training for older adults
[28:59] What you need to be a great coach
[34:20] Tendon and ligament health for older lifters
[43:08] Listening to your intuition when following a program
[48:25] Andy’s favorite training programs
[56:40] Andy’s current projects and what he’s working to improve
[57:56] How Andy’s beliefs or opinions have changed over the years, and new methods and trends in strength training
[1:08:50] Being consistent with eating better and making better food choices, and doing cardio
[1:14:09] What helped make Andy the kind of coach he is today
[1:18:33] How to find Andy

Episode resources:

👩‍💻 Schedule your FREE 30-minute Nutrition Momentum Call with Philip here.

💪 Need help optimizing your body composition? Check out Wits & Weights individualized, one-on-one nutrition coaching:
https://witsandweights.com/coaching

👉 If you want to learn more about lifting and nutrition, reach out to Philip:

IG: @witsandweights
Email: philip@witsandweights.com

🥩 Download your Free Ultimate Macros Guide and 50 High-Protein Recipes here

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Transcript

Andy Baker 00:00

Any type of training that you do is going to be better than if you're not, but the physic the physiology is still basically the same. And that was a big thing for a long time. They said, well, body parts splits don't work for, you know, natural guys natural guys need to do full body or upper lower, or that type of stuff. And that's not necessarily true.

Philip Pape 00:20

Welcome to the Wits & Weights podcast. I'm your host, Philip pape, and this twice a week podcast is dedicated to helping you achieve physical self mastery by getting stronger. Optimizing your nutrition and upgrading your body composition will uncover science backed strategies for movement, metabolism, muscle and mindset with a skeptical eye on the fitness industry, so you can look and feel your absolute best. Let's dive right in. Welcome to another episode of Wits & Weights. Today we're getting into programming and coaching with my special guest who's none other than Andy Baker. We'll get into programming principles for lifters of different ages and experience levels. Whether your goal is to improve strength, performance, body composition, or even just have fun but effective workouts. We're also talked to Andy's about Andy's career as a coach his opinions on training principles and methods and what he's been up to lately. So if you don't already know him, Andy Baker is a highly sought after strength coach, personal trainer competitive raw and drug free power lifter, and co author of two best selling books on strength training, that are also personal favorites of mine practical programming for strength training, affectionately called the great book that he wrote with Mark Rippetoe of starting strength, and the barbell prescription strength training for life after 40 with John Jonathan Sullivan, aka solely, and any host the baker barbell podcast, and he's books and programming basically changed my life back in 2020. When I finally figured things out, I finally got my act together and got into barbell training. And I did my first novice linear progression. And I've since run several of his programs. My favorite, I think is the KSC method for power building. So I'm gonna run again soon here. And I've been a group client of his online Baker barbell club since 2021. And he has almost two decades of dedicated experience as a strength coach and personal trainer. He's coached hundreds, if not 1000s of clients by now, ranging from high achieving adult fitness clients to elite athletes. And he's a former US Marine, a certified starting strength coach, and of course, the owner of Kingwood strength and conditioning, a private barbell based training facility in Texas, and event. It's a privilege to welcome you to the show. That was quite an introduction. I appreciate it. That's probably the that's probably the best and smoothest one ever. That was great. I appreciate it. Man. I am going for that now with every guest. I have you know you because because you deserve it, man. So thanks, I appreciate it. I'm happy to be here. Yeah, it's gonna be fun. And you know, I always have like, 20 questions ready. And I usually get to three, and then we go off on much more valuable tangents from that. So let's hope that happens today. It's funny, because my podcast is like that, like, I'll script out like an outline for the episode. And it's like, you know, and I don't know why I do this, because I know it's not going to work. It'll be like 10 different topics I want to cover and like an hour goes by, and I've done like one and a half. And I'm like, Well, I guess we're gonna have a part two on this site, which is awesome. You know, that's, that's what we want from this. Yeah, this isn't this is not a highly produced show. This is real people here.

Philip Pape 03:16

Alright, so, you know, you've probably told your story a million times on podcasts, I want to kind of I want to narrow the focus for folks here. You've trained since you were young, you went to Texas a&m, to spend time in the Marines became a full time personal trainer and strength coach, you know, your gyms in the Houston area. Right? Yeah. And I guess what I'd like to ask you is between the experiences you had with CrossFit with the online forums with your gym, when did you realize that this style of training, and programming with barbells was the way to go?

Andy Baker 03:48

I'm pretty early on. I mean, even in my early days, before I, you know, back when I was a teenager and early 20s, and stuff when you're just, you know, you know, before I was coaching anybody or anything, you're just training yourself, I mean, there's always kind of a recognition of what works and what doesn't, you know, and so I always gravitated towards,

Andy Baker 04:10

you know, the basic barbell lifts and such, even when I was doing like, more bodybuilding type stuff, and that just came from, you know, having a background in that. Coming out of a sports world, that sort of thing. There was always a recognition that, you know, there was a lot of value to squats and bench presses and deadlifts and that sort of thing. Really, regardless of what the goal was, that that that was a great foundation. And so, you know, whatever style of training that I've that I've done, which going from like, you know, and this is you know, spans both me personally and with my clients going from like bodybuilding style training, to even experimenting with like CrossFit style training to coaching power lifters.

Andy Baker 04:48

You know, to just general fitness general population, types of people that the basic barbell lifts has always been at the core of everything that I've done and then the the changes are a lot Have it is just on the periphery, you know, kind of on the margin specific to that person and what their goals are. So, you know, a lot of it is just, I always tell people, like, once you've done squats, I mean, you kind of know, like, if we're a new person, that's never they, they've read all this stuff and experimented with different things. But like, once they've done squats and see the results from it, it's hard to like unconvinced somebody that squats isn't, say, a superior leg exercise. You know, it's like, you don't really have to convince people, they just you just kind of know. And so, you know, that's, that's kind of the way I've always felt about it that, you know, you just, you can watch the changes happen with people, you get people's anecdotal feedback, you know, from your own personal experience. You know, even if you're training purely for aesthetic goals. You know, most people still like to be strong, even if that's, you know, they're not necessarily numbers chasing or whatever. So, those have always kind of been, you know, at the core.

Philip Pape 05:54

Yeah, yeah, we'll explore that a bit. Because probably a lot of people listening in and myself included, it took me four decades before I could figure out what worked. And, and I wonder, you know, not that it came more naturally to but I did CrossFit for eight years. And I did a bunch of squats there, but they weren't super effective for me. And so the question is, you know, you said, people naturally find this out, but it almost seems like they have to come across the right approach and work in the white, right, for example, weight range with the right programming, and be consistent about it for a while to see those results to then feed that back into their mental loop of oh, this works. What do you think about that? Yeah, what's

Andy Baker 06:30

it like with CrossFit, because I've, you know, I've had a lot of experience working with CrossFitters. and such, and I've, I've paid attention to it, you know, from the early days, you know, in the in the good, the good CrossFit gyms, the good CrossFit coaches, had a recognition early on that like, the squatting and the bench pressing, and the overhead pressing, and the deadlift, and everything that was really probably, you know, 70 80% of the results that people were seeing the problem wasn't the lifts, it was the way they were programmed, or not programmed. And the fact that in the early days of CrossFit, it was all so everything was so randomized, that, you know, you might squat, you know, on March 1, and then not squat again, until May 8, or something, and it was just all it might be, it might be a five by five this time, but then the next time it was a one RM, and then the next time it was three sets of 10 or so. So it was a 10 by 10. Any Yeah, so. So it was just like, you know, it was it wasn't the, it wasn't the exercises, that were the problem, it was the way they were programmed. And I think a lot of the good CrossFit gyms now you look at them, and they all kind of operate fairly similarly, which is that they have a structured periodized, repeatable strength program, you know, built into their watch structure. So you know, Monday, we're going to squat every Monday, we're going to squat, and then we're going to follow that up with some sort of wide. And then Tuesday, we're going to benchpress. And we're going to program these lifts. And we're going to do them repeatedly. And we're going to progress them on some sort of with some sort of framework that makes sense. And then, you know, Friday is we're going to deadlift, every Friday, we're going to deadlift, and then we're going to do a lot and, and the wads complement what you're doing with the main barbell lift, and they, they don't interfere with what's coming the next day. And that's the difference between like, I think CrossFit. Now it versus CrossFit in the very early days was the idea that completely and totally random was better than programmed. And, you know, the reality is, is it's really not because if you're gonna if you've got squats on Tuesday, and you do you know, 400 meters of walking lunges on Monday. Well, I mean, that's just retarded. I mean, there's no, there's, there's no reason to do that. And so that, but that was kind of the really early days of CrossFit was this idea that good exercise needed to be completely and totally random, regardless of how little sense that it made, you know, doing high volume kettlebell swings, and then the next day do and heavy deadlifts, you know, that sort of thing. It's just it's not, and you know, the gyms that wanted to stay in business and not burnout and injure their clients kind of figure that out,

Philip Pape 09:07

figured it out. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, and what so the principles of what you're talking about here for anybody listening who may have not been able to find something that works for them is the progressive overload the programming the being consistent and developing something over time. And perhaps folks that go to the gym to Gen Gen pop that haven't found a gym like yours, or haven't found barbell lifts or just, it's random as well, just because they don't know what to do so. So that's really important. All right, I want to talk about I want to talk about ripp a little bit and your relationship with him because this probably comes up a lot. It's, you know, I listen to him all the time to and his podcast and just the guy's got a great personality. It's just just very unique. I understand. He was a mentor and friend of yours, you shared a similar vision, you know, this repeatable approach to lifting whether it was based on anecdotes like you said, working with tons of clients based on the biomechanics and bar path and all that good stuff. And then you collaborate on the third edition practical programming. How did you become friends with them? And how has that evolved to this day? Well,

Andy Baker 10:06

firstly, on the way I stumbled upon rip as a way a lot of people did was, you know, he became kind of known, let's say, nationally, or to the broader audience via CrossFit. And this was in the early days of CrossFit when I don't pay attention to CrossFit now, so I don't know how they how they do things. But in the early days, you know, they brought in all these subject matter experts to teach these, you know, kind of independent skills that were a part of the broader CrossFit regime. And so they had Mike Burgener was the Olympic weightlifting guy. They had like a jump rope guy, they had a kettlebell guy, you know, they had all these guys and rip they brought in was the basic barbell guy. So they brought him in to teach squats, bench overhead press and deadlifts. And I don't know how Glassman found out about and that somehow Glassman knew about his book, starting strength that he had written, but it was not, at the time, starting strength was not real widely known, like it is now but but CrossFit kind of introduced it to the world. So I became familiar with rip, via CrossFit. But at that time, CrossFit wasn't as big as it is now. And so, you know, at the time I was, I was in the transition of getting out of the Marine Corps, I still lived in California, Rick was from Texas, I was from Texas, I was moving back to Texas, I had started to train, I had started to train clients while I lived in California. And I had planned on, you know, starting a coaching practice, when I got back to Texas, and I was using a lot of that stuff from starting strength with the clients that I was coaching. And when I eventually opened my gym, and late 2007, early 2008, I was taking a lot, I was using starting strength, linear progression, you know, in some of the other programs, that early programs for practical programming, intermediate stuff, I was using a lot of that in a commercial setting, with real people, which you know, really, that's, that's kind of the only place that accounts as a coach, you have to be able to apply this stuff in the real world, or otherwise, it's just theory and looks good on paper, if it doesn't actually work with real people, then as a coach, it's it's not really a viable methodology. And at the time, rip was a moderator. On this obscure strength. This was before social media might have MySpace or something, but at the time, yeah, but like Facebook, and Instagram, and none of that stuff was what it is today wasn't even around really, I don't guess. But anyways, RIP, RIP was a moderator on this kind of obscure strength training forum, called strength mill dot, I think it was strength mill.net. And they're like, nobody went there. And so but I somehow found it. And I was communicating with rip on that forum. And he eventually bought strength mill.com, or strength mill dotnet, whatever it was, and it became starting strength.com The Forum, but yeah, the forums. And so I was communicating with him way back then about what I was doing at my gym, and Kingwood. And, you know, at the time, you know, there, I'm sure there were other coaches that were doing it too, I was just the only one that was doing it. And communicating back and forth with him relatively frequently, about what worked, what didn't work. You know, what I was struggling with. And it's like one of those things where, if you do it, if he's doing it with a few 100 people up in Wichita Falls, and then I started doing it with a few dozen, a few 100 people down in, in, in Houston. You know, if you do something with 10 people, you learn something, if you do something with 100 people, you learn more, if you do something with 1000 people, you learn a lot more. So it was just one of those things where the more people that are doing it, the more you learn about it. And so we're we're communicating a lot of this stuff backwards, back and forth, especially on like the intermediate type of programming and all that which hadn't been really all that fleshed out that well, in the earlier editions of practical programming. And so then, fast forward a few years later, and he find he wanted to do a rewrite of practical programming, basically, because we have learned a lot actually putting a lot of this stuff into practice. And he's like, hey, you've you've been doing this stuff as much as I have been, or, you know, rip also just isn't that interested in programming? And he was like, so he's like, I want you to come on board with me. And let's we'll do this together. So I was pretty cool.

Philip Pape 14:32

Yeah, I brushed off my, my issue of practical programming, which I did read, just so you know, because there's a running joke that, you know, have you actually read it? And yeah, he his acknowledgment to you is about you're like a numbers guy, and you know, you're the programming guru. So are all the programming examples in there. Everything from the Texas method and the splits and everything is it's all at your section of the book.

Andy Baker 14:56

I mean, not the Olympic lifting stuff, because I mean, I told him So that's like that's not my I think he did a lot with Jim Moser did a lot of the Olympic weightlifting stuff plus rip. So rip is a lot more experienced with Olympic weightlifting than I am. It's just not my I mean, I can teach people how to power clean and power snatch. But you know, full full Olympic weightlifting programming is not something that I do. But the rest of it. Yeah, it was pretty much me, obviously, with a lot of rips influence in there, but he pretty much let me take the reins on that and go in and he would, you know, there were stuff on there that I would propose, and he didn't want to have it in there. So we took it out, and, you know, that sort of thing. But for the most part, yeah, it's, it's, it's mine. And, you know, it's, it's one of those things where, you know, you put a few example programs into a book, but you can't put everything in there. And so there's a lot of there, you know, there's, I mean, there's stuff that we've learned, since then that, you know, we would probably go back and add, but it's like, at a certain point, you can only do so many rewrites, you know, of a book, and we've gone back and kind of looked over it, you know, over the past couple of years. And, you know, I think most of it's still, you know, there's nothing in there. I'd say, oh, no, I don't agree with that anymore. Totally got to take that out. I mean, there's stuff in there. I could, we could have clarified more, or, you know, expanded on

Philip Pape 16:12

shouldn't run the Texas method. Because it you know,

Andy Baker 16:15

yeah, I mean, there's, there's, there's a never ending there. I mean, that's going to go on forever. If we did a fourth edition, there would be a few years from that there would be things that we'd want to go in there and clean up and clarify. But, you know, after a certain point, you just have to put stuff out there and realize it's never really going to be perfect. But yeah, it's it's still pretty good. You know, I think and so I still stand by the work. And I think it's a good starting point for most people, you know, for at least to understand the basic concepts around programming, the problem, the problem is, and this is why we kind of joke about people don't read it is they do tend to look at, they do tend to just kind of skip over all the text and go right to the right to the programs, which which are all just examples. You know, and it's hard, because none of those are written for any specific person. They're all just kind of generic, but people follow them, like a cookbook, and they don't necessarily give themselves the latitude to adjust and tweak based on the principles that are outlined in there. And if you don't understand the broader principles, then you don't know how to necessarily make those adjustments. And so in granted, it is hard. I mean, for the average person to self program, it can be difficult.

Philip Pape 17:24

It is yeah, yeah, no, it is. But you know, you're what I was gonna say is, if you were to have an addendum to that book today, I would tell anybody, just go to your go to the, you know, Baker bar, what's your Andy baker.com, go to your training page. And those are effectively a bunch of programs that you've worked out over the years, and have selected the best stuff. And, you know, you charge for them, but they're, they're super reasonable. And you take those and then ask you a question on how to tweak it or read practical programming, you kind of get a good sense for how to work, work through it. And you've helped me with this over the past couple of years, where up now I've got a shoulder issue. Now I'm gonna cut. Now, you know, I've got this thing going on in my life. Now I need to go from four to five days. And those are the kinds of things where the principles matter. And once you've kind of gone through that process a few times, I think you can get pretty good at it. But, you know, it's not for everybody, like programming is a skill for sure. And I think you've got that.

Andy Baker 18:15

Yeah, I mean, even like, if you look at stuff like heavy light, medium training, I mean, it's, that's just a very general generic way to kind of organize the stress of a given week, but within that framework, I mean, there's, we gave a few examples in the book, but there's an infinite amount of examples you could give when you start rearranging, exercises, sets, reps, volumes and intensities. I mean, there's an almost endless amount of permutations you could do that would more or less be heavy, like medium stuff. And then there's like, a lot of programs I do that are, you know, kind of heavy light medium, but not exactly. And so that's like, that's where I'm, I tend to be less rigid that I think a lot of my readers and clients are they read it and they're very rigid and how they apply it. And I think a lot of them are very surprised that I'm not Yeah, I'm, I'm more you know, I always tell people like I'm I approach programming much more as an art than an engineer. Like from an engineering standpoint, I think a lot of guys, especially that are drawn to starting strength, because it's so formulaic, kind of have that engineering brain. And they really liked the structure, like but overly so almost. And so I think a lot of people are surprised to figure out how kind of loose I am with some of that stuff. Because I've had people say, Well, you know, you said we were going to do a heavy light medium program, but this isn't in I'm like, yeah, it's it's heavy light, medium ish. Yeah, kind of is. It's just it, but it just works. I mean, so it's like whether it fits very, you know, 100% neatly into this package. Doesn't really matter that much. Oh,

Philip Pape 19:49

yeah. No, when people people ask you a question on the forum, and they're like, Can I do this or this or this or this or this? And you're like, sure, like, yeah, those all work, you know, for what you're trying to accomplish.

Andy Baker 20:00

Um, they have a great thing at the starting strength seminar. And I think I hope I'm quoting this right. But Nick delgadio is kind of the programming guide now with starting strength, and he does a great job. I mean, I tell people, I mean, I, I trust in it, you know, as much as anybody, maybe even more so than me with a lot of the basic barbell stuff, he's really good at it. And you know, he has a good a good thing. And then in the programming section is like, before you ask a question, ask yourself, one doesn't matter. And a two and I think two is something like, you know, would the best option be to just try it and see? Sure. And that's, you know, that's, that's kind of what people are like, exactly what you just said there. They're like, Well, can I do this? Or should I do this? And it's, like, try it and see man, like, both could potentially be right, like, I can't tell you, is four sets of five or four sets of four gonna be better for this movement? Like, how can I? How can I know what that degree of precision, especially from somebody that I don't even coach, you know, closely. In any event, it's somebody that I do coach that closely. And I've made this point before, like, most of the stuff that we do from a programming standpoint is more or less guesswork. You know, there's, there's, there's no way to know, on any given day where something where the you can say, Well, when I squat today, should I be doing four sets of five? Or should I do four sets of four or five sets of four? Like, you can't really know that you're kind of just saying, Well, based on where we're at, and who I'm working with, and the loads that we're with? And I'm gonna say

Philip Pape 21:27

it's true recovery and how you feel.

Andy Baker 21:31

Yeah, you can't really pinpoint the exact level of stress that would be optimal. I mean, one of them is more right than the other four sets are for four sets of five, right? Like, one of them's more right than the other. But we're kind of just guessing there and in over time, you know, I think it probably evens out to where it doesn't really matter that much, as long as you're kind of in the ballpark, and you're really consistent with it.

Philip Pape 21:53

Yeah, you 95% versus 90%, may not be be a big difference, as long as you're getting to that 90%. What you know, the other thing I've seen a lot is that new lifters, they, they want to copy a an advance or, you know, an advanced lifters programming, or they see what they're doing on social media, right? And they just want to look or perform like that person. So they're going to try to do that. And that's just one example. I mean, what are the differences between beginners who just don't know what they're getting into quite yet and don't understand their body or what their max is, or anything else, or even intermediate, which I feel like late novice, early intermediate, still pretty much a baby in the woods. I know, I was between that and advanced lifters and then the mistakes people make in that regard with regards to writing their own programming.

Andy Baker 22:35

Well, one is the terminology. And we had rip me and rip have both said this, that I think if we had it to do over again, we would probably change the terminology away from like, novice, intermediate, advanced, I mean, I think novice is correct. But the reality is, like this, let's say the starting strength progression, depending on who that who the athlete is, and who we're working with, you're looking at anywhere from potentially as short as six weeks, to as long as six months, with six months being really long. Like that's, that's someone that starts out really small on most in most instances and, and gains a lot of weight through the program. And does everything right. But most of the time, it's between probably eight, eight weeks to 16 weeks, somewhere in there is probably more about right in terms of so. So somebody does a linear progression like that, and goes, let's say three or four months, and then they kind of, you know, phase out of that and they're ready for something more complex, or just, you know, structured differently. You know, there's still a beginner, you know, they're yes, they're on technically, they're on to intermediate training. But, you know, the way that we defined it in there was that, you know, someone that's an intermediate at this point, could only progress on a weekly basis, there was no day to day progression left, they couldn't, they couldn't progress between Monday and Wednesday and Wednesday to Friday, that they were on more of a kind of a weekly type schedule. But you know, if you've only been training six months, you're still a beginner, you know, if you've been training a year, you're probably still really a beginner, even though technically, you may be into kind of late stage intermediate training, the way that we defined it. And kind of the same thing with advanced is that people look at advanced programming and they think, Well, you know, I'll never be advanced like that's for like an elite competitor or whatever. But really advanced training, the way we define it is just, it's any type of progression that is that is longer than week to week. In other words, you can't progress between this Monday and next Monday, your progress is going to be slower than that. And really, anybody that's been training for six, eight months or a year for sure, is really going to be kind of in that advanced territory. And the differences between intermediate and advanced training are often so hazy, that it's there's a case to be made that there's not even really a point in making a distinction because the the line between the two are so blurry that You could really make the case that we just have kind of novice training, and then post office training, right? You can vary by lift, even, it probably will, you know, vary by lift. You know, a lot of people will make more, you know, longer linear progression on maybe a deadlift than they will an overhead press, or something like that, that's going to require a different type of programming. So, you know, so that's, you know, that's, that's one way to, it's just understanding that the rate of progression is going to slow a little bit sooner than you think that it is.

Philip Pape 25:31

Sure. So and then speaking of a beginner, then where what scenario, is there any scenario where you would not recommend someone follow the starting straight novice linear progression? Or something close to it? Is there is there any scenario you can think of? Um,

Andy Baker 25:46

yeah, I mean, a lot of times I do even with novices I put them on, it's still basically looks the same, it looks very similar. Like if you laid the programs out on paper and next to each other, but I'll use, a lot of times, I'll use a four day split with somebody even right from the beginning, as opposed to the full body structure. And that a lot of times that just that may have to do with somebody's schedule. You know, at the beginning, I think the first few weeks for sure, like full body programming, is the easiest, simplest way to do it. The problem with it is that as somebody gets stronger, is that the workouts take a long time, right. And so certainly, if you have somebody that is has kind of competing, you know, is competing for resources with the lifting, let's say they play sports, or they do any type of really other outside activity, we don't generally recommend people engage in a lot of, you know, a lot of aerobic activity while they're doing it, you know, it's better to take that time and just get stronger. But you know, sometimes people don't have the option, if they're playing a sport or whatever they have to do, you know, they have to practice and play the sport. And a really long drawn out full body workout is either too time consuming, or just too draining on the recovery. So, so doing something like a four day split, Monday and Thursday, is bench and overhead press and chin ups or something, and then, you know, Tuesday and Friday is just squat and deadlift, and you're out the door, you know, something very simple like that, it will, it's still basically all the same lifts, it's still, it's still progressed within the week, you know, nothing really changes other than you're going from, you're doing an upper lower split versus a full body split. And it just, it makes the workouts a lot shorter and easier to recover from. So, you know, but in terms of the lifts, I mean, when I work with older people, for sure, I mean, you're gonna have certain Pete that people that can't always do all the lifts, I mean, for sure you're gonna, the lift that most people can do actually is the deadlift. So I'm, if I'm thinking in my gym, where I get a lot of, you know, in my, in my coaching practice here locally in my gym, you know, I get a lot of clients that are, you know, 60s and 70s, and even up into their 80s. And so, I mean, very, I'd say it's more rare, the, it's more common that people come in and can't do at least one or two of the lifts the way that we prescribe them. I mean, it's pretty rare, you're gonna get a guy that's in his 70s, that hasn't worked out in forever, that can low bar squat, overhead press, and bench press without any remediation. I mean, because things like arthritic shoulders, and all that is kind of the norm, almost with that population with an unathletic older population. And so, you know, are they, you know, they're not going to have the strength to do to squat a 45 pound bar or overhead press, a 45 pound bar. So, you know, but that some of that stuff's easily solved with just lighter equipment, you know, having the equipment there, where they can do a 20 pound overhead press, you know, a lot of my older clients, I may have them start deadlifting with light kettlebells first, before I progress into a bar, you know, and I'll have them, we'll get up to where they can do a 50 pound kettlebell, and then move them to a 65 pound barbell, that sort of thing. You know, for for a lot of people that are maybe listening to this that are your, your clients are probably a lot of like mine, a lot of guys in their 30s and 40s. That's not usually an issue with that demographic. I mean, most of them can squat a 45 pound bar on day one, but a lot of my you know, for if you're a coach listening to this, I mean, or you're thinking about getting into coaching, if you're going to coach people in person, you're gonna have a lot of older clients that have a lot of issues, and you're going to be surprised how few of them can, you know, squat a 45 pound bar on day one, or deadlift 65 pounds, which would be you know, 45 pound bar with 10 pound bumpers on it, that's going to be way too much for a lot of people. And so are they may, you know, even if they have the strength, they may not have the range of motion, or, you know, things that people don't think about, you know, being able to lay down flat on a bench. A lot of older people, they can't do that, you know, they can't lay flat on a on a hard bench like that and get on and off. So you got to be creative in your approach. You still follow the same principles. But you're right, yeah. And I'm pretty flexible in that I really look for a cave, instead of trying to force people into a certain movement. I look at okay, what can we do well, and let's go focus on those, you know, let's let's not try to force you into this into this movement, you know, I'm not going to jam the bar down on your shoulders trying to force you to do a low bar squat, when I could just have you do a safety bar squat, or start you with a goblet squat or a bodyweight, bodyweight squat, you know, whatever it is, I'm just going to get you squatting, then we'll kind of flesh out some of this other stuff down the road.

Philip Pape 30:22

Yeah, and I think that goes back to talking about this more as an art in that you have to accommodate where people are coming from. And I know a lot of you guys in the club, you know, we're in our 40s. And, again, dealing with all sorts of little things, and you got to get creative. For me, it was recently a multi grip bar, instead of a street bar for for, you know, press because of the shoulder issues. I have female clients that are maybe in their 40s or 50s, who never lifted and, you know, can they have access to a women's barbell or 15 pound barbell, and that often at least lets them get started and progress up. You mentioned something about recovery. And you were talking about people who are maybe athletes who have other forms of cardio that they're doing in between. And you said maybe they need, you know, for four days versus three days, just this week, I had a client make an assumption. And I was thinking of he actually said, Well, I'm currently in a fat loss phase. So of course, I can't do a fifth or sixth day. And I thought, you know, and he had me running the bodybuilding track when I was on a cut. And that was six days a week. And it was fantastic, because each day was just like bite sized. And I only had stressful movements, maybe two days a week. And that allowed me to, you know, spread out the fatigue and recovery. So let's just explore that for a second. People understand that, like the number of days per week doesn't always correlate to, to the stress or vice versa. Right?

Andy Baker 31:37

Yeah, because like the, the bodybuilding track that I do, for a lot of the guys that are you know, strictly hypertrophy oriented, physique oriented, you know, that's not something I would necessarily start a novice outwith. But once you've kind of, you've got a decent base of strength established, and you're kind of looking to, you know, go outside that a little bit, then, you know, people people will see without seeing the program, they'll go, Oh, my God, it's six days a week, I can never recover from that. But the workouts, the way, the way that I like to train that style, is with short, very intense, very focused workouts. And so, you know, you're looking at a day where it's just, its shoulders, you know, and so that's not that's not near that's not as stressful as doing squats, bench presses, and deadlifts. You know, on a day, that's, you might do a, you know, a standing overhead press, that would be your, you know, your initial lift on that day. And then you've got a series of, you know, isolation type movements that are, you know, stressful on the shoulders, but low systemic stress, you know, you're talking about things like side delt raises, rear delt raises, maybe some shrugs, and you're out the door. And, you know, I'm I like for hypertrophy, I'm not a big volume guy, I like enough volume, but I'm much more in favor of, you know, high effort, a handful of very high effort sets for that type of training. And so the workouts are shorter, and they're intense. But there's it is, to me, it's easier to recover from something like that, even though, you're training more frequently, you're not training your whole body, or even half your body six days a week, you're just doing, just basically doing a body part. And you're using a lot of exercises that are not that systemically stressful. And so you can recovery, recover from it, and a lot of those workouts, you know, if you're really focused, and you're not scrolling around in your cell phone, and you're, you're watching your rest time, and that sort of thing, I mean, you might not come out in 3045 minutes, and you're out the door. And that's, that's kind of how I like to train. And if you're gonna combine that, say, with cardio and aerobic activity, it's a lot easier to do that, than if you're trying to knock out a full body workout, or even half a body, you know, full full, a full upper day or a full lower day, even as much more is much harder than that, then, you know, just doing like a body part type split.

Philip Pape 33:56

For sure. Ya know, I've learned a ton from from your approach here, when it comes to stress fatigue recovery, and how we balance all of those. And then the the I guess the other aspect for older lifters would be the kind of the types of things that they shouldn't shouldn't do during the week potentially, to manage that recovery. Actually, my friend Tony Perry, you know, you probably know him right in the barbell club a lot stronger guy than me. He's always getting on me for that. So I hear you, man. But he wanted me to ask you a question about tendon and ligament health in this context, whether there's anything older, older lifters maybe shouldn't do, whether it's sprinting, or Olympic lifts or anything like that. Maybe explore that a bit in terms of tendons and ligaments.

Andy Baker 34:40

Well, yeah, it's like high speed activities, for sure. Especially when you're not accustomed to them. That's the thing. It's, it's one thing like there's a difference between, you know, doing sprints when you're 40 When you started doing them in college, and you've maintained a sprinting regimen for into your 20s and 30s. And yeah, maybe you've done moderated it down, you don't do as many or as frequent or as fast, but you've never, you've never stopped those activities, you know, you've always played, you know, you've always played recreational basketball or whatever it is that you do. You've maintained those, just like with anything else your body is adapted and conditioned to those stresses, there's a big difference between that, and a guy that's 4550 years old, that says, Okay, I'm going to start doing sprints. Now, after never have after not having done that for 25 years, or 30 years, you're, you know, the connective tissue is not adapted to that, it's not that you can't do them, but you just got to be really careful about introducing that kind of stuff. And you have to really weigh the risk reward of that sort of thing. You know, jump training is typically not something that I would necessarily do, I think sprinting is okay. But I always tell my older guys, and really, this is really anybody over like, 30. So not just, I mean, there's really no reason why somebody our age should be running 100% max effort Sprint's I mean, you get, you get whatever benefit you're gonna get out of them by running at 80 90%. And you're, you're without putting yourself at the risk of even if it's not a torn Achilles tendon or something like that, just a strained hamstring, those types of things, that then, you know, they're not catastrophic, but they're, they're an annoyance, and they slow down your progress by a lot. You know, if you're having, if you're having to nurse that thing for, you know, three or four months, you can still train but you're not training hard, you're having to always nurse it, it's always in the back of your mind, whether it's going to give or not. And so, you know, there's certain things high speed movements, for sure, are something that I would be I would be careful with, you know, but I would say in terms of, you know, protecting yourself from that, don't do things that you're not conditioned to do. If you're not used to training heavy, you know, you need to kind of acclimate to that for I think full range of motion is very important, I think, full range of motion and using the, the lifts as using the one of the benefits of a lot of these lifts that we do is that kind of weighted loaded stretch, you know, I think is actually very, there, I think it helps prevent injury. And I think it's, I think it's good for the joints to be taken through there for not excessively long, but you know, not doing a lot of heavy partial movements, you got to be careful with like, dead stop movements from the pins. Those are movements that sometimes I'm careful with, you know, pin squats, dead stop rack, bench presses, those types of things, right, I like those movements. But as you get older, you start to those types of movements can be hard on the connective tissue. And then just paying attention to your own your own body and your own your own body's feedback to you about the things that might cause pain or your own injury history. You know, I've got a, I've got an entire history of minor PEC tears and one one or two, pretty, not major, but less than minor, you know, PEC tears. And so I've got some soft tissue issues, you know, in my, in my pecs, that maybe you don't have, or another guy doesn't have. So I'm more careful with certain movements, just based on my own injury history than another guy has, you know, if you've got a history of knee problems, or shoulder problems, or whatever, just paying attention to your own body, you know, kind of writing your own rulebook for what you can or can't do. Because, like, there are certain there are certain movements that get demonized a lot like dips, or behind the neck presses or upright rows. And yeah, those are problematic for a lot of people. But I can do all those movements. And I've never had I behind the neck press all the time. I've never had an issue with that. But I don't. But that mean, me being able to do it doesn't mean that everybody over 40 Can behind the neck press. I just have I've always had very free and open shoulder range of motion. And so that movement doesn't hurt at all. And but I don't, but I know a lot of people do. So I don't prescribe it. Universally, you know?

Philip Pape 38:56

Yeah, no, no, exactly. Right. Not not one thing works for everyone. And also, what you just said there is Don't you know, some of us out of ego, I think especially us guys will push ourselves, especially if we've gotten really, really strong I mean a lot of progress in one area where maybe it's our big lifts. And then we go out like I did a few years ago and said, sure I can trail run at 100%. And you realize kind of maybe you should have eased into it and worked up to it and train for you. And the older you get, the harder it is to bounce back from those things. Hey, this is Philip and I hope you're enjoying this episode of Wits & Weights. If you're looking to connect with like minded listeners on their health and fitness journeys, come join our free Facebook community. It's a supportive space where you can share your experiences, ask questions, and access free guides and weekly trainings. Just search for Wits & Weights on Facebook or find the link in the show notes. Now back to the show.

Andy Baker 39:48

Yeah, I mean, I've look I've been dealing with some plantar fasciitis and my foot for since July of last year, and it came out of me not following my own advice. My son is my son's a teenager He's playing football now. So I was training him last summer for his upcoming fall football season. And I had him out on the track running sprints. And I thought, you know, like, like a good dad like a good coach. I'm not gonna, you know, it's like 100 degrees. You know, it's it's harder to go it's harder to do that stuff. You know, on your own. So I thought you know, like a good a good dad, a good coach, good trading partner, I'm going to run the sprints with him, you know, we're going to we're going to, we're going to suffer suffer together type of thing. And so I was Do you know, during the workout, I was feeling pretty good. And I ran. I don't know what it was 10 1040 or 50. Yard Sprint's, but it had been a long time, you know, since I had done that type of stuff. And then of course, I got competitive with him. And we started we started instead of just running breaking point. Yeah, we started right actually racing. So I was I did a handful of, you know, max effort sprints with him, felt great, I woke up the next day, and man, my foot, like I couldn't put my foot down on the ground. And at first I was like, Man, I thought I had a stress fracture in my foot. And and then, you know, come to find out, it's just I gave myself a pretty acute bout of plantar fasciitis. And then if you've ever had that, you know, it's, it's a pain in the ass to get rid of, you think it's gone, and then it comes back, and then you think it's gone. And then it comes back. And so I've been dealing with that off and on since July of last year. So you know, it's not the, it's not debilitating, but it's definitely annoying. And that just came strictly from not following my own advice, which was one don't don't run sprints at max effort and don't, don't do a high volume of things that you're not accustomed to doing. I violated I violated both those rules. And, you know, I've kind of been paying for it a little bit. Luckily, it's a minor thing. It's not, you know, I didn't blow out a hamstring or quad tendon or something like that. But you know, that kind of stuff can happen.

Philip Pape 41:42

Yeah, that reminds me the suicide Sprint's I did at the beach a few years back, same thing, you know, you and me, buddy, let's go after it and see what we can do. And, you know, 25 anymore.

Andy Baker 41:53

Yeah, and I think to a degree, you know, as guys, and if you're, you know, former athletes or whatever you I mean, you're competitive, and it's easy to let the moment, you know, kind of take over and you do things that you don't, you wouldn't, you know, you wouldn't prescribe to a client, but you wind up doing yourself or, you know, in the gym, it might be, you know, working up to heavy, you know, you haven't been training for a while or whatever, and you decide to work up a little heavier than you should try to hit old numbers or pursuing too much volume, or whatever it is, you're just you're applying more stress than your body is able to recover from and I think, especially when you're older, and you're you you have you, you're still pretty strong and you have been strong, I think you kind of hit this nexus, where you're still able to apply a lot of stress to your own body, like I'm still pretty strong, like I can apply a lot of stress to myself, but I have to be careful with that because my recovery is not as good as it used to be. So I can, I can still put up some decent numbers on some of my lifts, I just have to be careful about my volume and my frequency and that sort of thing, because I'm capable of generating a pretty big training stress, but my ability to recover from that same stress is not as good as it was 10 years ago, or 15 years ago. So you just kind of have to learn, I think as you get older, and we we focused on this a lot in the barbell prescription, which was, you know, everything's going to happen on your own individual timeline. And, you know, that becomes even more true, the older that you get is that you really can't adhere to things that are too regimented. And too, cookie cutter. And you know, you really have to pay attention to how is this program that I'm trying to follow? How is that affecting me? You know, and that's one thing I always tell these guys that are like, in my club that are following, you know, a lot of the stock programming is that's a good starting point like, but give yourself permission to adapt, and improvise and modify and adjust. You don't, you don't necessarily have to ask for permission to do that. If you're following a workout plan, and you feel like God, this is just killing me, like, if your intuition is telling you that it's way too much, then it's probably too much, you know, and you don't necessarily have to ask, you know, to shave off a set or to or to back the wave down a little bit like you have to kind of pay attention to your own body. And I think that's one of the big mistakes that people make, is they they just they don't really, they don't give themselves permission to be like, at the end of the day, your your coach is an advisor, or, you know, that program that you're following is an advisor, I liken it to like a like a roadmap or a trail map. Like Like, if I give you a map, you know, a rudimentary map to follow that says, here's how you get from, you know, we're out in the woods somewhere and it's like, here's how you get from point A to point B, and you're going down that trail, you know, and you come to a two foot deep puddle of water. It's like well go around it, right. It wasn't on the map, but don't just wade through it. Like go round it like you know, and I tell I kind of like to try to tell my guys all these things like if you're doing this program and it says five by five squats, but every time you do five by five squats, you can't walk For a week, you know, are your low back hurts, like do okay, then don't get five sets of five do three sets of this, even though they do they do and like, I'm going to be the first guy, and that's going to tell you to do that. Because when I put out a program for people to follow, I'm that program cannot possibly be optimal for every single person that's gonna follow, it's gonna get you, it's gonna get you in the ballpark, it's gonna get you pretty close. And I think that's good. And so a lot of people are against, you know, stock programs or stock templates for that reason. But I think it's just like that little that a handwritten, you know, little map is still going to be better than just walking through the woods blind. But it doesn't necessarily include every obstacle that you're that you might encounter. But it's gonna get you closer than maybe if you're on your own. But it's not precise. And it's not exact.

Philip Pape 45:53

It's about 80% of the way there. And then the rest of it is, you know, taking this advice that you're sharing here, talking to a coach, having a trainer, whatever it takes to make those adjustments as you learn. You know, it's funny, you mentioned the GPS. Did you ever watch the office? The US was in the office? Oh, yeah. Do you remember the episode where they follow the GPS? Like almost ready to

Andy Baker 46:13

do it, Dwight drives the car right into the lake? Or Steve Carell does whichever one. But yeah, they're driving, and it's like, oh, there's a lake here. And it's like, well, the, the roadmap said to go into it, and it's like, so they just drive into the lake. And a lot of people do that with their own training. And it's like, you know, you have to just, I think that's a big problem with I don't know, there's something about the online world that's created that, you know, and I think some coaches would take it as an affront to their own programming skills, if their clients want to modify what they gave them, but you just have to recognize that, you know, unless you're working with somebody, like, like me working with Shelley, who's a very high level, you know, competitive athlete, you know, at the world level, but, you know, God, I've been working with her very, very intimately for like, six years. So like, with her, I can pretty much I think, you know, pretty much down to the, to the set are pretty, you know, pretty damn close, you know, get really close to what's optimal. But that is that has come from a long relationship of programming for her, and and now, you know, she's been doing it long enough where, you know, her feedback now to me, I listened to it a lot more than I would have, like, in year one, you know, so when she say, This is too much, or this is not enough, you know, at the beginning, as a coach, when you're working with people, you know, for a guy that's only been trained in a few months, you're like, Okay, I'll kind of make a note of that. But

Philip Pape 47:38

I was a coach, and I know better. So let's right,

Andy Baker 47:42

you don't blow it off. But a lot of this stuff, you've, they just, they don't know enough to make a lot of these models. But the longer somebody has trained the, the coach becomes much more of an advisor, rather than, you know, any kind of give them stuff, but I give them much more agency to make their own. You know, it's kind of like a football coach does with a really experienced quarterback with Tom Brady, you know, that the coaches is not going to script out every play for him, he's going to give him a lot of agency to go out there and call audibles, you know, or call his own play call, you know, call a pat call a pass when a run was called, because that's what the defense showed, you know, that type of thing where you may not do that with a rookie quarterback, because you're gonna make a lot of mistakes. So there's a lot of analogies in this from sports that

Philip Pape 48:24

Phil Jackson and his team, same thing. Hey, speaking of your program, so you're talking this whole the idea of templates versus customizing? You know, I guess one of the things I like about your KSC power building program is it's not really a template, it is very flexible. It's like, here's a bunch of things you could do on Monday, here a bunch of things you do Tuesday follow this framework, but then you get to choose, which some people may find frustrating because like, Oh, this guy is telling me that I have to now figure it out. But I like that. Well, I mean, what is your favorite program of all the ones you've ever written?

Andy Baker 48:58

I actually liked that one a lot. That that probably is my favorite. Cool, just just because I've, I've used it a lot personally, probably my strongest that I've ever been, was probably when I was, you know, consistently following that eight five to programming for the main lifts. And for the reasons that you just kind of laid out I like that program, because it provides there is a pretty good amount of structure on how to do the main lifts. So it keeps you from I don't like a program where you just walk into the gym and you're just guessing, you know, you don't want to leave it to the, to the client to just to just guess, you know, whatever feels good today. So it provides some structure but it also gives you a framework to do if, you know the your ability is just not on point that day, you know, and so a good program provides that of kind of, what do you do if you get out there and you know, you're supposed to do X but you can't that day, like you know, it kind of gives you it kind of gives you some direction on where to go and how to how to how to handle that when progress starts to slow down. So it gives you some it gives you a little bit Have rigidity and some structure on the main lifts. But then on the margins, it gives a lot of flexibility to one choose exercises that that you prefer or that fit your equipment situation. That's one of the biggest things like doing like hypertrophy based programming is what equipment do people have?

Philip Pape 50:17

Right? Machines? Yeah, they

Andy Baker 50:19

are, they're in a garage gym, and they have a barbell, and some dumbbells, and maybe some janky cable station or something, versus if they're in a really good commercial facility, where they have everything, this kind of gives them a framework of how to, you know, how to how to implement some variety, but also not to get carried away with variety. You know, here's, here's a couple of accessory movements for your chest, you know, maybe need one or two, but you know, a 10, you know, type of thing. And so that's because that's, that's an area where people with too much variety will get carried away, and they'll lose the lose focus on the big picture stuff. And focus too much on this the smaller type of things, but so I like programs like that, that are that have some rigidity, but also have some flexibility. And some Yeah, exactly, you know, on the on the margins,

Philip Pape 51:07

it kind of reminds me of flexible dieting on the nutrition side where you know, got your calories and macros, but you go ahead and pick the food, you know, it's similar here, you've got your a five to structure and you've got your days, but pick the pick the movements. So, after working in this field for I guess, at least two decades now, a couple of questions I wanted to pick your mind about one is, is there anything that you've completely changed your mind on? That used to feel strongly about? And then the other is, is there anything new that you're experimenting with? That maybe we haven't heard much about from you?

Andy Baker 51:40

Um, you know, it's hard to say if there's anything that I wholesale, used to believe that I just don't believe anymore. I mean, definitely, maybe the way that I do some stuff is won't for sure, the way that I do some things is different. I think, fundamentally, fundamentally, I more or less believe. And I think, you know, that's the thing, when you work with real people in the gym, I think you you kind of see what works. And if it worked 10 years ago, it's still gonna work. Now, it's not like, well, this is old, so it doesn't, it doesn't work anymore. No, if it worked, I mean, humans haven't evolved that much in 10 or 20 years. So, I mean, I think you get better at just maybe being more efficient, you know, with what you're trying to do. But more or less the stuff that worked, you know, the stuff that worked 10 or 20 years ago works. Now, you know, I think a lot of people too, they look at what your they look, you know, as a coach you you have to kind of come up with your own system that you that you follow. And you have to get really good at working within a system or a couple of systems. And you can't try everything or do everything. So it's like, if somebody will be like, well, Baker does this. So he obviously thinks that this other thing doesn't work. And it's like, that's not, that's something I just know exclusively, I just don't use it. If people do that with nutrition, I heard Mike is retell the other day on Instagram post or something. And he was right about this, it'd be like people see him, he's like, eating an orange. And they're like, Well, why aren't you eating an apple? He's like, it's like, Well, I'm just eating an orange. Like, it's not, it's not that I don't like apples, I'm just eating an orange. And it's kind of like that way with programming. It's like, I'm programming and training a person this way. It doesn't necessarily mean i wholesale believe that this other way doesn't work. I just, that's just not what I do. And I don't, I wouldn't know how to use it, as well as some other coach uses it. So I don't, I don't do it. But I've, you know, I've always I've always borrowed from a lot of different systems. So I don't have like one thing that I do necessarily, my system is a conglomeration of a lot of different stuff. You know, so I beg, steal and borrow, and then I assembled it kind of into my own thing, which I think is what most coaches wind up doing. But that's, and then I think we're I'm pretty good at, I think my strength is a coach, it's being able to take, you know, an approach that I that I know how to use and applying it to the right person, right, you know, utilizing, right I know, I know how to use the conjugate system with people, let's say, for instance, and I liked the conjugate system, but I don't universally apply the conjugate system to every single client that I trained, because it's not it's not appropriate for every single client that I trained, but it's very appropriate for other people. And so I try to match the programming structure or the programming style to the person that I'm working with, not only with their goals and their experience level and their abilities, but even just their individual preferences. You know, some people like a lot of variety and they want to learn new things, they want to be constantly challenged. And for them, like a conjugate approach, which is really really good and a conjugate system for the people that I mean, it's very deep, but it's a lot of variety of different exercises and that sort of thing. And so that type of

Philip Pape 54:52

go listen to your multi part, podcast episode on

Andy Baker 54:55

I'm not gonna I'm not gonna I'm not gonna break the whole thing down here because that's another hour but It's, you know that that system will work well for a lot of people that want to do it that way. But for a guy that doesn't like to train that way that wants, he wants to peel everything back, except for just the bare minimum basic stuff he wants, you know, a minimum number of exercises, he likes the repetition of doing the same stuff over and over and over again, then I might use more of a heavy light, medium structure with that person. And again, it may come down to something, you know, a guy may want to do a call, he may contact me and say, Hey, I'm really interested in this conjugate method. You know, but his his equipment selection is a rack and a barbell may not work that well for you, man, like it's Yeah, I mean, you can, but you're trying to, you're kind of trying to force a round peg into a square hole with that, and so you can't rotate through enough areas with Yeah, that's right. Yeah, yeah, you just have, you just you kind of need more stuff to do that. And so sometimes it's better to just, you know, it's better to just go with what you have, and do the best with what you have. And then in trying to, because if you're if you want to joy, I'm a big believer, if you don't enjoy your training, you're not gonna You're so if you're following a system of training that is, doesn't match up well, with your preferences, you're, you're probably not going to be as consistent with it. And consistency is key. And one of the one of the keys to consistency is to actually, I mean, all of us have days where we don't want to train and we don't want to go in there and do it. But you have to be following something that excites you, at least to some degree. And so as my as a coach, I try to match that up as best as I can.

Philip Pape 56:25

Yeah. And that right, there is huge, that's a big part of why I recommend you all the time to people because it there's so much variety to choose from, and you'll find something that works for you. And then even in the barbell club, it's just the tracks that come out, and the variety we tweak are great. So last couple things. If we got time for a couple more questions, I got plenty of time. All right, so are you you're always open to things because I noticed like in the bodybuilding track, you're big into the the rest pause sets and density sets, and you recommend all these different things, which I think are fascinating, you know, the dog crap training, stuff like that? What, uh, what have you been experimenting with? Or trying to, to work through now that maybe we haven't heard of? Or is there like? Or if not, is there something that you're personally working on that you're just trying to improve?

Andy Baker 57:10

You know, for the, for the last several years, I've kind of gone back to where I started, which was, you know, I started, like a lot of guys did is, you know, late teens, early 20s, with a bodybuilding style approach with the body part split. But looking back, you know, when I didn't have enough good information, and so I was doing a lot of things wrong, that I still made progress, because I was, you know, I was very, you know, I trained hard, I was very consistent, I always, I understood the importance of nutrition early on. So I got, I got good results with that type of training, you know, early on plus I was, you know, 1920 21. So you're gonna, if you're doing if you're eating well, and you're training hard, you're still going to get pretty good results. And at that age. And so, you know, I, but looking back, you know, there was a lot of things I would have done differently. It had I had the information that I have now. So several years ago, I kind of went back to that bodybuilding style approach that I that I used when I was younger. And I thought, okay, with the information that I have now, could I do this better and make it work? And so for years for I did that for a number of years before I started offering, you know, that track out to my clients of, you know, how do I make this kind of body part split type stuff work? Because now I understand a little bit better of why I'd be doing something that I'm doing instead of just doing what I felt like, which is kind of how I did it back then. And so yeah, I think the the bodybuilding style of training, applying the principles of progressive overload, and that sort of thing, to that style of training, as there would have been a time where I would have said that, you know, that maybe that style of training didn't work, because you've heard that before, like body parts of which only work for advanced athletes or, you know, enhanced athletes. So, and that's really not true, you know, that if you're on gear, you're anabolics, in any type of training that you do is going to be better than if you're not, but the physic the physiology is still basically the same. And so, you know, that was a big thing for a long time. They said, well, body parts splits don't work for, you know, natural guys, natural guys need to do full bodied or upper lower, or that type of stuff. And that's not necessarily true. You just need to make sure that certain principles are in place like progressive overload. And I think that's one of that's, that's one of the reasons I'm so drawn to Dante tradelens work and kind of his dog crap system. And again, I don't prescribe the dog crap system. Exactly. But I've, I've borrowed elements of it, one of which is just that, that applying those principles of progressive overload and everything to more of a bodybuilding style of trading, which I think is where a lot of guys, young guys, especially that train in that vein, where they go in there, and they have an arm day, let's say in this and they do a lot of volume, a lot of sets and reps on their arms and all that kind of stuff and they still don't see any progress, any growth. And a lot of that is is because like I was when I was at ages, I really wasn't Thinking about progressive overload, I was thinking about, well, how can I go in and just destroy my arms? You know how so, you know, you're just trying for what's the most massive pump I can get? How sore can I get, how fatigued can I get, you know, it's not a good workout, unless that body part that you're training is just destroyed, you know. And that was kind of what a lot of the bodybuilding magazines and stuff back in the day preached was you have to just absolutely destroy a muscle as as opposed to now my thinking is more, you know, you have to take, you have to find certain exercises that work really well for that, you know, for that muscle group. And then you have to apply the principles of basic progressive overload to those exercises. And we think a lot on a about progressive overload on squats and deadlifts and that sort of thing, but we don't necessarily think about it on our cable, tricep press downs, or our barbell curls, those types of movements, people just go in there, and they just knock out three or four sets of 10 reps, and then wonder why they're not growing? Well, it's like, if you're, if you're doing a cable, tricep, press down for 10 reps with 100 pounds, you know, in a few months, you need to be doing 10 reps with 150 pounds. And if you're not thinking that way, on even those small exercises, you're not going to see the type of muscular growth that you would if you were, you know, applying those principles of overload. And so it's the same thing. I mean, people recognize that on their squats, you know, if you want your legs to grow, you need to take your 225 Squat and turn it into a 315 squat. to 25 for five needs to become 275 for five needs to become 315 for five needs to go needs to turn into 405 for five, I mean, that's really, that's where groat muscular growth occurs on those lifts. But it applies to every other lifts, if you're trying to get your chest to grow. And you're doing a dumbbell bench press. Like if you're doing the 60s for a set of 10. Today, well, in a few months, you need to be doing the 80s for a set of 10. Exactly, you know, so those principles that we apply to the barbell lifts apply to every other lift that we're going to be doing, you know, when you're trying to do that bodybuilding style approach. So I went back and kind of retrace my steps that's kind of training the way that I used to train, but applying some of this stuff, some of these more scientific principles to that training and see if I can make it work. And even getting away from the barbell stuff entirely, just to see if I can elicit an adaptive response without them. You know, and you can, it's not great for strength, you know, your low bar, one Rm is not going to go up if you don't train your low bar, one RM, but you can still, you know, I wanted to see, can I actually grow doing a lot more machine based, Bill based training and that sort of thing, because I knew I could with the barbells, I wanted to see if I could make it work, you know, kind of with the bodybuilding type system, more physique level approach, and it does it does work. Yeah, and

Philip Pape 1:02:39

you have some really nice features in that program. For what I can recall, it's been been about a year since I ran it, but it had the top set back off set approach, right in the bodybuilding track. And you you'd you'd go through a certain progression for six 812 weeks, what is it now on the program, before you start to switch it up? Something like six weeks, right?

Andy Baker 1:02:57

Yeah, I'll do like basically like six weeks, and then I'll D low people. And, and again, you know, is that optimal for everybody? You know, the idea is, though, is that if you know, if you know that we're going to, we're going to kind of load for six weeks, and then D load and then kind of reshuffle some of the movements, then you're trying to kind of maximize, yeah, you're you're pushing Yeah, it's

Philip Pape 1:03:17

a psychological thing. For sure, yeah, you're

Andy Baker 1:03:19

gonna try to push that, you know, your benchpress in the four to eight, four to eight rep range, you know, you're going to push that hard for six weeks. And then, you know, we may not the benchpress may just go from the first exercise to the second exercise, and then not and be in the eight to 12 range, instead of the four to eight range. But you're still, you're still trying to apply those principles of progressive overload now, just within a different reparation in a different order. And so all that type of stuff, you know, I've kind of figured out a way to long term kind of make it work.

Philip Pape 1:03:48

Yeah, and it's a lot of fun, and you're still hitting plenty of compound lifts in there. In a variety of rep ranges, like you said, it's not always the big three which can be refreshing actually, when you're kind of getting tired of doing the same lists over and over. And then it's also I also read it during a cut and you had suggested that as one of the the higher priority programs potentially because of the autoregulation and the recovery, you said something in one of your articles you wrote stay out of the bulking, cutting purgatory, pick a goal and get there. bulking usually erases your abs and cutting use erases your PRs just deal with it. Right. And I'm always having I'm always having arguments with people about bulking and cutting myself to me and Tony, he's like, stop cutting man, you gotta you gotta gain and I'm like, Well, I don't want to gain 40 pounds and keep going up I need to at some point get a little bit late. And that's

Andy Baker 1:04:35

and that's true. I mean, the bulking and cutting thing. Not that it doesn't work. But I think what what happens is guys just hang out in the middle for too long. So they, they want to, you know, drop the body fat, but they don't do it long enough. You know, to really get lean, you know it because they're because what happens is, you get a few weeks into that diet, you know, and your strength starts to go down a little bit and so you have They have a system of training. Like, that's why I don't recommend when guys are going on a cut, I don't recommend them following some sort of barbell base strength program that has them working up towards a peak, like working up towards a one rep max, because you're asking the stress to go up, up, up, up, up, up up, while your recovery and your recent your nutritional resources are going down, down, down, down, down, like that's a bad combo. So you have to figure out a way to train that allows you to still train hard, because you need to train hard in order to maintain the muscle mass, but your absolute strength like your your PR, one RMS on your lifts are gonna go down. And I honestly wouldn't have guys even mess with that you don't need to be taken out squat one RMS while you're on a cut, because one they're going to go down to it can be dangerous, if you're if you're really dieting hard, and you're depleted, you don't need to be going down and doing those types of, of lifts. So you need to be training hard, but in a within a specified rep range. I do like to push the lifts close to failure, but not relative, it's relative, it's relative, you know, it's within the five to eight rep range or the eight to 12 rep range not in the one to three rep range. And the when you get there that you find that the load on the bar, I don't want to say it doesn't matter, it does matter, you want to try to maintain your strength as much as possible. But within those kind of medium rep ranges, not not not your one RM maximal strength, because that is going to go down if you're on a prolonged cut. And so you just got to kind of get that out of your head and really stay focused on the goal, which is if I'm trying to get lean, let's just get lean. And then once you level off, and you start going back into gaining again, a lot of that strength is going to come back. I do think that there's a lot of there's a lot of utility. And if you're kind of in that you're your body type is such you've got some muscle and you're kind of strong, but you're kind of fat, and you want we'd like to be less fat, but you're still not your strength is still not where you want it. And so people are like, Well, should I should I just keep gaining weight? Or should I or should I lean out because and honestly, if you're in that zone, I usually tell people to do the lean out first, like get get lean. And then because actually, if you get nice and lean, you're actually going to be more anabolic to start a bulk later like that bulk is going to be more effective going forward, your body is actually going to you're going to your insulin sensitivity is going to be better when you're leaner. So you'll be able to eat more without putting on as much body fat when your insulin sensitivity has been fixed. If your level of runway, yeah, yeah, if you're fat now and you start bulking, probably your insulin sensitivity is not good. And so if you start trying to go into a big caloric surplus, why you're kind of fat, now, you're just gonna get fatter, I mean, you still will probably get stronger, but you're gonna, then you're gonna get to a point where, you know, yay, my squat went up 50 pounds, but man, I'm fat. And I don't want to be here, you know, and it's like, so you're going to be, you're going to be in a better place to add that muscle if you start off a little bit leaner. So it can be better to cut first, because of getting your insulin sensitivity is better. A lot of times your testosterone is going to be better. I mean, I think we know now that you know being obese is one of the leading causes of having your, your sort of have is having of having low testosterone. And so I think all of those markers are going to be better and are going to enable you to have a better bulk if you get lean first. You know, if you're if you're already lean now, you don't need to get, you know, you don't need to get down into single digit body fat unnecessarily,

Philip Pape 1:08:20

I guess you could easily do that later. Right? Exactly. You know, I've also seen the scenario where someone, especially new lifters who have never lifted before, you know, could get some of that body recomp. Right, they can stay at maintenance, potentially, if they if they're not excessively heavy and really need to lose that weight right now for health reasons. Maybe it's around a maintenance and enjoy some that body recomp that the rest of us can't get it get any more to that extent, and then figure out where do you want to go, because you might see, hey, the waist size has gone down, the muscle mass has gone up. And I haven't lost any weight on the scale. But now I'm good to bulk. You know, it could go that way too. Yeah.

Andy Baker 1:08:51

And I think cardio plays a role in that as well. You know, it's your, it's kind of it kind of again, it kind of depends on where you're at, you know, if you're if you're if you're very overweight, if you're carrying a lot of body fat, you're not happy with the way that you look and you feel, you're probably more going to be especially if you're older, you're probably going to be more on the end to get the weight off first. But if you're just kind of in that, like skinny fat type of thing, you know, or you're just moderately overweight, you can oftentimes get a little bit of a recap, just by cleaning things up, you know, making not necessarily eating a lot more or a lot less, but just eating better, making better food choices. And just in being more consistent with it not having this is something we all struggle with, you know, not just being good on your diet, you know, Monday through Thursday, but, you know, Friday, Friday nights, I mean, a lot of people do really good on the weekend. I mean during during the week, and then on the weekend, you know, they drink too much they eat bad. I mean, I'm certainly guilty of this. Then you know, they kind of never really gained any traction because those couple days over the weekend keeps growing them up. And I think cardio sometimes it can help to kind of smooth out the edges of it. perfect diet, it won't, I don't like people to get in the mindset of, I'm just going to eat whatever I want, and then do cardio to try to undo it. But you know, it kind of most people's diets are not perfect all the time. And so adding a little bit of, you know, just kind of moderate intensity that zone to cardio or you want to talk about, you know, 234 days a week for 20 to 40 minutes at a time, that can help, it can help you to eat more, and you'll be more, you'll be more satisfied with your eating, you're less likely to binge, because your caloric intake is a little bit higher. And that can help as well. Yeah, that's

Philip Pape 1:10:34

the thing, I actually just talked to Brandon the cruise about the high energy flux lifestyle, right. And he was talking about that as well, the idea that we want to eat more and move more, we don't want to eat more, we don't want to eat less, move more, we don't want to eat less, move less, you know, you want to have both kind of up there. Because now you're fully you're fully feel filling your tank, you're feeling your lifts, you're feeling better. A lot of this is how you feel too, right. And it's just when you talked about eating better. I imagine that's going to help with digestion, how you feel, how you recover, how you sleep, everything else.

Andy Baker 1:11:02

It does. And that's and then the other thing was that I just had a conversation with a client, I guess a day or two ago. And this is something if you work like like I do, and you probably do you work with guys that are in like their 30s and 40s and 50s. That can be a high stress time of life and turn. I mean, that's where your career is really busy. You have young kids, a lot of times, there's a lot of pressure on you business wise, financial wise, marriage wise, kids wise. And so a lot of times when you're in that situation, and you're but you're wanting to, you know, lose some weight to and guys are wondering, Well, should I die it or should I do cardio, you're one of the things you got to remember when you're under when you're in a situation where you're where you're stressed, you're in, you're in a high, and it's not really going anywhere, right, your career is not going to get any easier. Your kids are still there for 10 more years, you know, you've still got job pressures and all that kind of stuff that a very diet, a very restrictive low caloric diet, very low carb, very repetitive diet, that you're less likely to stay with that when you're in a high stress environment, your that's going to lead to a lot more binge eating and going off track. And so I would rather a guy in that situation, eat more, because that's going to satiate him better. And it's probably going to lead him to less binging and overeating. So feed him more, but have him do some cardio on top of that, in order to get in order to get towards that deficit. And one you'll discourage kind of those cyclical patterns of binging and being restrictive binging and being restrictive. And the cardio in and of itself is a good stress reliever. You know, there's there's a lot of evidence that you know that that type of that type of work is good at reducing stress levels. And so that's the approach, because that's the debate people always have, should I dye it harder and not do the cardio because it's potentially catabolic, or should I do cardio and eat more? And so that's just something to think about for a lot of the people that are probably listening to this that are probably in our kind of our age, and in our situations in life. Is that something to think about is Yeah, for sure. Feed yourself a little bit more, but then do the cardio to kind of get yourself closer to the deficit. Yeah.

Philip Pape 1:13:09

And even walking, I mean, walk as much as you can is really a form of cardio, that's also low stress. And people don't do enough of it. We're all sitting around desks, and you might go to the gym and think that you're working hard. And that's the only time you move then that that could be part of the the issue right there. All right, Andy, I want to ask one more question. And I asked this of everyone, it's what one question Did you wish I had asked, and what is your answer?

Andy Baker 1:13:33

Oh, man. That's a tough one. I don't know. Where can I find out more about your stuff? I don't

Philip Pape 1:13:41

know. That was gonna be my last question. No, no, that's that's the last question. Anyway.

Andy Baker 1:13:46

I know. I went I went straight to it. I don't, I don't really know. I mean, I've, I've done so many of these podcasts. I've got, I've got a lot of, I've been out there a lot. I've got a ton of articles, my own podcast, that sort of thing. So there'll be any anything that people want to know about my opinion on stuff. It's it's out there somewhere, you know, and so that's yeah, I don't know. I don't really have a good answer for that. I'm sorry. I should have prepared better.

Philip Pape 1:14:09

Okay, then I'll throw it out for you. Is there is there any is there like any entertaining story or something very career that I don't know, you've never shared on a podcast or maybe haven't told, you know, the public? Oh, yeah. Knows most of those. I don't want to my millions of listeners, Andy, you know,

Andy Baker 1:14:25

yeah, from, you know, from my, probably just, you know, I think a lot of people that they don't know a lot about, like, you know, some of the I've got a pretty diverse background and where I've trained and how I've trained and who I've trained with and everything and I think that's, that's helped me become a better coach of just I spent, you know, I was of that age where I grew up in gyms before the internet. And, you know, that was really helpful, I think, to where that was back in the days where when you went into a gym, people shared more, you know, people didn't have headphones hands on. And it was more common I think for young young guys like me teenagers and stuff to go up to the big guys in the gym, the big strong guys and, you know, ask for advice, or they would freely come over and give the advice, but it you know, in a in a very helpful way, you know, and there's just so many of those, those stories of guys that I've met over the years, I mean, some of which, you know, guys like Kurt Kawasaki, and stuff that people would know. And then other guys that were just in gyms that I've trained out over the years that, you know, you know, people don't have any idea who they are, and I don't, I haven't kept up with them, I don't know where they are, but just all the all the guys that have come up and said, you know, just one thing to you just one exchange that you've had in the gym, with somebody that stuck with you, you know, that helps you you know, even if it's just a little tip of how to do an exercise, versus, you know, a more fundamental way of thinking about, you know, how you train. And a lot of that, for me was just observational, just, you know, watching being in gyms, around people, not not watching people, you know, not watching people's Instagram stories, but watching you know, being in a gym and watching how guys trained for years at a time, you know, the the guys that you would want to emulate the big strong lifters that, you know, watching? What did they not? What did they write about on social media? Because it didn't exist? But what did they actually do day to day, you know, week to week that made them have success, and you start to see certain patterns with that, you know, over time. And so I think that's something that people miss miss now is that most people get their information from social media. And there's so much conflicting information. And one guy saying, you know, oh, you should do this, and the other guy say, No, you should do that. And I think people look for the differences in people's approaches, rather, rather than the commonalities. So that's one thing I've I've always tried to look at is, you know, I know with whoever I'm going to, you know, whatever source of information I'm going to go to, to try to gain some knowledge from I know that there's going to be certain amount of things that they say that I disagree with, or maybe don't understand, or whatever. But I try not to focus on the things I disagree with, I try to focus on the things that where people agree and try to find the commonalities of what works between these different camps that you might see in between different lifters that have success and bodybuilding or powerlifting, or whatever, what are the commonalities that people do? Versus what are the things that they do different? Because, and I think what you're learning is that there is no one magical approach that works for everybody. I mean, even if you look at elite level powerlifting. I mean, in a way, everybody's kind of doing the same thing. But they've all if you go get the top 20 lifters in the world, they're on 20 different programs, right? They're not all just following one thing. And so I think the only thing that you can deduce from that is there's a lot of potential things at work, you're trying to really drill down on what are the commonalities, and then finding out, you know, on those different things, what are the things that would work for you and apply to you, you know, or apply to your clients? And so, you know, that's kind of that's just kind of always been my approach of just being an observational list, and trying to see the commonalities instead of the differences between people in different camps.

Philip Pape 1:18:09

Yeah, and I can respect that, that it's like this discerning open mindedness you have. It's not that, you know, it's not that everything goes. But there are principles that are universal principles. And you recognize that and you're not dogmatic or rigid. And this is a great takeaway from folks is to just keep that in mind as they go through their journey. Because this is, at the end of the day, we want this to just be a fun part of our life that gets us to be healthy, fit strong, and we want to enjoy it along the way, right for the decades that we do this. So absolutely. So all right, what now the question, Where can listeners find more about you and your work?

Andy Baker 1:18:39

Just go to Andy baker.com. That's the kind of the hub that's all my articles are there, you know, products and services are there and then the baker barbell podcast? Also if you want to search that up?

Philip Pape 1:18:52

Absolutely. I'll put those in the show notes as well, Baker barbell podcast, and of course, Andy baker.com. You're always putting out a ton of really cool articles. If you're on your email list. You get interesting musings every week about some some cool stuff that I really don't hear anywhere else. So check those out. And man, Andy, this was a pleasure. It was even better than I expected. I really want to thank you for coming on the show. Yeah, thank

Andy Baker 1:19:13

you for having me. I enjoyed it. I'll be back anytime you want me would love that. Cool. Thanks, man. Cool.

Philip Pape 1:19:20

Philip Pape 4/7/23 Philip Pape 4/7/23

Ep 59: Why You Should Track Your Food

In this episode, I share a framework to help you understand why you should track your food and the practical steps you can take to start doing so right away. You can choose whatever food-tracking app you want that will help you track the priorities included in the framework.

Tracking your food may sound daunting or obsessive, but doing so will help you develop freedom and flexibility in your relationship with food.

In this episode, I share a framework to help you understand why you should track your food and the practical steps you can take to start doing so right away. You can choose whatever food-tracking app you want that will help you track the priorities included in the framework.

Tune in and learn more about the specifics you need to track and how it can help you improve your eating habits, health, and well-being.

___________
👩‍💻 Schedule your FREE 30-minute Nutrition Momentum Call with Philip here.
___________

Today you’ll learn all about:
[0:00] Intro
[1:48] A top-down framework on why you should track your food
[3:38] Documenting your food, how you feel, and your sleep
[6:57] Energy level of your food in terms of calories
[11:00] Tracking your macronutrients
[13:05] Tracking carbs and your energy
[15:55] Stephanie shares her experience with one-on-one nutrition coaching with Philip
[17:49] Sub-macros: Breakdown of your macros
[22:10] Protein sources and amino acids
[23:42] Micronutrients and vitamins and minerals
[26:03] Getting bloodwork or vitamin/mineral screening to know if you have any deficiency
[27:10] Recap of the 5 food tracking priorities
[29:20] Outro

Episode resources:

Ep 58: Using High Energy Flux to Eat More, Burn More Fat, and Build More Muscle with Brandon DaCruz

IG: @witsandweights
Email: philip@witsandweights.com

🥩 Download your Free Ultimate Macros Guide and 50 High-Protein Recipes here

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Transcript

Philip Pape 00:00

10% of your calories or a third of your fat as saturated fat, you track that and then you could alter your food choices. I prefer you getting saturated fat from your meat and animal products and not adding a whole bunch of more saturated fat.

Philip Pape 00:16

Welcome to the Wits & Weights podcast. I'm your host Philip Pape. And this twice a week podcast is dedicated to helping you achieve physical self mastery by getting stronger. Optimizing your nutrition and upgrading your body composition will uncover science backed strategies for movement, metabolism, muscle and mindset with a skeptical eye on the fitness industry. So you can look and feel your absolute best. Let's dive right in. Wits & Weights community Welcome to another solo episode of the Wits & Weights podcast, where we talk about how you can look and feel your best using science backed strategies. I hope you enjoyed our last episode number 58 with Brandon de Cruz, where we revealed what it means to live a high energy flux lifestyle. Today for episode 59 Why you should track your food, you might be thinking that tracking your food is inconvenient, it's weird, it's obsessive, or it's not something that you can do forever. And yet, it's by far one of the most effective things you can do. Especially if you've struggled to manage your weight or your body composition until now, or you've never done it before tracking your food if you do it the right way. And for the right reasons will help you develop flexibility and freedom in your relationship with food for the rest of your life. And yes, even if you decide at some point that you no longer want or need to track, I'm going to take a unique angle here. In this episode, I'm not going to tell you what app to use, how to use a food scale, how to prep or plan meals. Today, I'm going to construct a top down framework for you to think about why we might track food, you know, at least for a short period, and how you can do it at each level of the framework. So that by the time the episode is done, you'll know what to do and can take action to become a highly skilled, highly empowered master of your nutrition domain. So instead of following a diet, or labeling foods as good or bad, which results in a moral choice, you're going to be able to choose whatever foods you want that fit within this framework and within your lifestyle, which gives you both freedom and flexibility for the rest of your life. So if that sounds good to you, let's get into it. I'm going to start at the top with what is most important. And then we're going to work our way down the list. And the more of this list that you can satisfy, the easier it will be to reach your goals, not just for fat loss or building muscle, but also for overall health, for energy, mood, hormones recovery, and really your overall health and well being, we're going to start at the top. And the most important thing when it comes to tracking your food. And this might surprise you is tracking how you feel. What we're talking about here is making sure that you have an appreciation for what foods you tolerate or not what your preferences are before you even go to the next level of the framework. And the next priority to take the offenders off the table to understand what works for you rather than what somebody said in a diet book or program. And we can do this systematically and objectively by thinking about a few different things. And this is common sense. But what I'm asking you to do is as you track your food, I also want you to either journal or document list or even just think consciously about these things. So one of those is digestion. Lots of foods cause digestive issues, you may not even be you may not even realize it you may have been eating a certain way for so many years, that you just accept how how it is your bowel movements and how your stomach feels, and your bloating and so on. And until you start to experiment with other foods or move toward a different dietary pattern. And notice that say some of those things go away. You then until you do that you can't discover that things have been causing issues for you. So digestion is one another is hunger, hunger is huge. And being aware of your hunger and then be able to categorize it as physical or physiological. Being able to understand what level of hunger you are at relative to you and your history. And then associating those types and levels of hunger with what you were doing and what you're eating. which then gives you consciousness and awareness to tweak things and reduce that hunger as you select your foods. The next thing as far far as how you feel is your energy and your mood. So these are these might sound qualitative, but you know that when you have to drag yourself up in the morning

Philip Pape 05:00

To go to the gym, when you have to drag yourself under the bar to get your back squat, or when you have to drag yourself to go get some work done, versus the days that you're just you've got all that pep and get up and go, and you have the energy to get stuff done. And you feel strong and capable in the gym, you notice those differences, and a lot of that could be down to what you're eating. Think about when you go to a restaurant, you have a big meal with lots of sodium, salt, fat, sugar, and how you might feel even if it's not a big meal, calorie wise, just how you feel how you feel after you go to that fast food restaurant and have the fries cooked in who knows what oil, and who knows what ingredients and where they've come from. Versus if you cut up some potatoes at home and roast them with some olive oil. Compare the differences between these things, energy, mood, even recovery. And then the last thing that you want to be conscious of in terms of how you feel when it comes to tracking your food against that is your sleep. Seriously, sleep is tied to food in many ways sleep is tied to food in that if you don't get enough of it, you will be hungrier, and your metabolism will drop. And that will cause you to not be able to eat as much. But it could also be tied to when and what you're eating. If you're eating later in the day, or if you're eating certain composition of foods, whether it's macros fats, or whether it's carbs, fats or protein for you, as an individual does something cause more interrupted sleep. And again, this comes down to experimentation, and finding out what works and what doesn't. So all of this encompasses the first and top level of the framework for tracking food, which again, might surprise you, but it's going by how you feel because at the end of the day for a sustainable approach, eventually, you want to not have to track and still know exactly the right foods for you. Alright, so that's the first one, then we start getting into the more nuts and bolts, the nitty gritty if you will. And that takes us to number two on the hierarchy is calories. Now calories are important for a few reasons. The first, and maybe the biggest reason is energy balance. We know that calories are the only way to manipulate the energy coming in to your body, knowing that the energy going out is going to be driven by your movement, and your training and your muscle mass. And I recently had if you listened to last week's episode with Brandon Cruz, we talked about the high energy flux lifestyle, the idea of eating more and moving more moving more and eating more. And energy balance is not thought of in a vacuum. Meaning if you want to lose fat, yes, you have to be in a deficit. But relative to what? Well, it's relative to how much how many calories you burn. Obviously, if you burn more calories and want to be in that same deficit, you get to eat more food. So energy balance is really important, especially in the context of your overall movement. And at least being aware of the number, by tracking your food gives you the power to make the changes, you need to get to a different number. Very, very important. I have people come to me all the time saying I struggled for years with my diet. I've tried this. I've tried that whether it's keto, paleo, something else, I've tried low carb, I've tried him in fasting. And one of the first questions I asked is, have you ever tracked? And often the answer is no, because that's annoying, or I tried this app, and it was just too laborious, and so on. Now, those are all valid concerns, because the tool that you use has to fit what you're trying to accomplish. And there are real many really bad tools out there. There are some really good tools as well. And I promised that I wouldn't talk about what app to use on this on this episode. So I'm not going to do that. But the once you can find once you get that variable out of the equation, I would say that the quote unquote inconvenience of tracking your food is far outweighed by the years and years of inconvenience of not getting your results. And if you agree with that statement, then the what they call opportunity cost of not tracking is much higher than the cost of tracking. So tracking your food for calories alone will make a huge difference in meeting your goals. The other reason we want to track calories is the awareness, the awareness of how much we eat, and the awareness of how many calories we burn. So let me put that in context. How much we eat. People underestimate that by 50%. This is this has shown time and again in the literature that we do a terrible job at estimating our calories. If I told you to tell me how much you ate yesterday and you didn't track, whatever you guess would probably be to 50% more than you really ate unless you've tracked before and have developed the skill and the intuition. So just the awareness even if you did it for three weeks, you'd be shocked at the reality not just of how much you eat

Philip Pape 09:59

Get days where you think you're staying on track, or are similar to other days, like Saturday versus a Thursday, you might find that Saturday just blows your whole plant out of the water. And knowing that one or two days makes all the difference in your week, allows you to take control the situation. And then the other piece of this is understanding your personal expenditure, your total daily energy expenditure or your maintenance level, if you can eat it in a fairly routine way, for about two to three weeks, and you've maintained your weight, and you've tracked your calories, then you know that that's roughly how many calories you burn per day. And if you're in the ballpark, you know, if you know you're around 2200, or 3000, or 1500, and it could be way off from what a calculator tells you. That's really good information. Because even if you don't want to track in the future, you'll know that roughly this amount of food is what I need to maintain my weight. And that's one of the reasons we track calories. Okay? So tracking calories is important. The next most important is going to be number three macros macronutrients, okay. And by the way, this whole framework, the idea here is not just to track these for its own sake, it's so that you get data to make decisions from and you can construct your personal meal plan or your personal I'll say, repertoire of foods that you would go to, rather than looking at a book or eat this not that or low carb or cut this food group, it's, Hey, here's my personal ecosystem of foods that work for me that make me feel good that meet my calorie needs, and so on. So that's why we're doing this. So let's get into number three macros. Alright, we know what the macros are, if you've been listening to the show, we know we have protein, fats, and carbs. And so for protein, the importance of tracking protein is because you need enough of it. And most people don't get enough, you need about 0.7 to one gram per pound of your target body weight. But just to keep it simple, whatever you weigh, right now, if you just want to maintain your weight, you need to eat about that many pounds in grams. So if you currently weigh weigh 200, and you want to stay there, you need to shoot for one at 200 grams of protein every day. And you're probably getting a lot less if you haven't done this before. So that's the first huge revelation that most people have when they start tracking their macros. And then we have fats, most people get enough fats just naturally in their foods, we want to be around 30% of our calories. Some people can go a little less if they're on a lower fat diet, or they just don't need a lot of fat, the leaner foods. Or if you're in a fat loss phase, and others need a little bit more. If you used to eat keto, or you like a high kind of a high meat type diet with or a lot of eggs, you might want to have more fats in diets, that's totally cool. So fats are pretty flexible. But you need to be way above the essential minimum, which is something like 10% of your calories. And again, most people are unless they're deliberately going out of the way not to be. And then carbs. We talked about carbs so much on this podcast, and I just can't stop mentioning how critical they are. If you want to lift weights, and improve your body composition, and feel great. I have clients all the time who are stressed, they've had a history with maybe thyroid or adrenal issues. And they just may not have enough carbs, I mean, let alone the strength training, which is an important piece of it. They may have just been under feeding not just calories, but carbohydrates for years, and all of a sudden we get them to 200 or even 300 grams of carbs. And it's like whoa, I've got energy, I can go to the gym and lift, I can sleep, I don't have stress, all of a sudden my thyroid numbers good. My you know, reproductive hormones, look at everything all of a sudden starts to regulate just because of carbs. So tracking your food and understanding your carb intake and how that links to number one. How you feel is very important. I have a fellow lifter, I know he actually doesn't do well on a lot of carbs, he needs to stay below 200. It's not keto territory, but it's not where he could be. For an average person his size with his activity, he would know I would normally have around 400 400 to 500 grams of carbs, right? bigger guy, strong guy eats a lot of calories. But it doesn't work for him. Right? He needs more fats and protein in his diet and less carbs. And that's like a sweet spot. And he knows that because he listens to his body, but it takes a lot to get there. So tracking your macros is important. And here's the fourth macro alcohol don't forget alcohol. Alright, alcohol does have energy it has around seven calories per gram. We don't consume alcohol because it's good for our energy or anything else. We consume it because we like it because it's enjoyable because we get a buzz from the alcohol. We know why we consume alcohol any minor benefits from things like resveratrol, as I say, the antioxidants in red wine, for example, are just are practically negligible compared to the, the negative potential of alcohol, especially when over consume. So I want to add it in there, because you should track it. And if you're using apps that actually single it out specifically as a macro, it helps you see how much you're getting, which I mean, you probably know how much alcohol you're getting. And then that's a good, that's a good macro that you can tweak or reduce. For example, if you need more room in calories, you need more room for other more wholesome carbs, and so on. So just don't forget it is all I'm saying. All right, so that's number three of the, you know, top down approach here for breaking down your, your dietary pattern and your framework for selecting food, because this is really about food selection.

15:56

The most value that I got from this was the fact that I had someone that I could talk to about anything, and that there was going to be no judgement, it was just Well, here are your goals, here's the best way that you're going to achieve it. And then let's work together to help you feel inspired and motivated to do that. And there's a lot of people out there trying to be coaches, and not all of them have done the work and also just be a genuine person that is positive and coming from the heart in terms of wanting to help and Phillip really embodied all of those qualities, I would recommend him to just about anyone that's looking to achieve goals in that realm of their nutrition and building new habits.

Philip Pape 16:40

So now we're gonna get to number four. And so if we just stopped at calories and macros, this is where the If It Fits Your Macros crowd stops, and they're like, Okay, if, if I need 2000 calories, and I need this much protein, fats, and carbs, and then I'm just going to choose whatever food I want. How many donuts pizza, ice cream, gummy bears, coke, whatever. Now, yes, you can eat those and satisfy energy balance, and macros potentially, I mean, you've got to get your protein, of course, but you wouldn't satisfy number one, if you did that, most likely, you wouldn't satisfy feeling great having good digestion, managing your hunger, managing your energy, mood, and sleep. If you're eating all of these ultra processed foods all the time, even though yes, it could satisfy your energy balance and macro needs. So already, we've started to rule out that approach into approach that must by definition, incorporate things that make you feel good, which generally includes more whole and unprocessed foods, not 100% of the food the time, but 80 or 90% of the time. So let's get to number four now, which will further refine this approach. And that is the breakdown of your macros. And what I mean by that is within each macro category, there are specific types of those macros, that if you can track them, and then have targets around them, they will further induce you to select foods that serve you and your goals. So what am I talking about? carbs, let's talk carbs. The the type of carb that we want to track is fiber. Okay, fiber is critical for digestion, and gut health, your microbiome, for managing hunger. And it is mainly found in fibrous foods like fruits, vegetables, whole grains, seeds, nuts. So think about that list right there. And if you think about quote, unquote, diets that people have called Healthy over the years, like a Mediterranean diet, or a whole food diet, or something like that, they generally have those types of foods. But we don't again, we don't care about good bad this, that we just want to look at how much fiber is in whatever we are selecting. Even if you have that quest bar, it might have a decent amount of fiber from soluble corn, corn fiber, I'm not saying that's, you know, the quote unquote, best form to get but it's still fiber, it's still going to contribute to your digestion and your fiber needs, which doesn't rule it out. Right. So tracking your fiber, and then understanding the minimums you want to aim for, which the evidence supports is 14 grams per 1000 calories consumed. So if you consume 2000 calories, you want to consume 28 grams of fiber, right? So track your fiber. And if you're using an app that tracks all the macro breakdowns and the micronutrients, you'll know how much you're getting. And then you can tweak your food choices, right? If you're in a fat loss phase, and all of a sudden you're getting hungry. And then you notice your fiber is low. That might be the connection, and you increase your fiber and all of a sudden the hunger goes away. Boom, you've just realized that you want to have more fibrous foods in your diet. Now you start incorporating more vegetables, more greens, more fruits, all good things, okay, or not good things with things that serve you. Alright, the next macro to break down is fats. And there's two in particular I like to focus on saturated fats and omega threes saturated fat.

Philip Pape 20:06

The evidence has been, I don't want to say mixed, it generally leans toward showing us that too much saturated fat is associated with cardiovascular disease. But I know there's some confounding factors, like if you have a high saturated fat diet, but otherwise, you move a lot and have a healthy dietary pattern, like we see in some European countries in the Mediterranean, that it isn't linked with it, in which case, it's the other factors that are usually associated with someone who also consumes high saturated fats. Because where do we find a lot of saturated fat in western diets, it's in processed foods because of the types of fats and oils that they add to make them delicious. And there you go, you get an ungodly amount of saturated fat, versus what you would normally have if you just picked Whole Foods off the shelf. So here's my suggestion, track your saturated fat, and see if it's in the ballpark of 10% of your calories. If it's far above that, that could be an issue. But it could also sit and it could also suggest you're selecting foods that may not work for you long term. And maybe you're having a lot of ultra processed foods in there. 10% of your calories or a third of your fat as saturated fat. You track that. And then you can alter your food choices. I prefer getting saturated fat from your meat and animal products, and not adding a whole bunch of more saturated fat like don't add a ton of butter to everything, use a little bit of olive oil or coconut oil. Well coconut oil, also saturated fat, but just just use it sparingly for flavor. We don't have to go crazy, and we can keep that where we need it to be. The other type of fat is omega three fatty acids, which are primarily found in fatty fish, you know and fit in fish and fish oil. A lot of us myself included take fish oil supplement, it may not be necessary if you eat fish two or three times a week if you eat seafood. And it's just important to have decent amount of something from fish in your diet. Also, it's a great source of protein. So you get to from one there. And I wouldn't get too hung up on the Omega three to six ratio and the amount of DHA and EPA and all that just get enough. Okay, and then protein, the real, the only thing that's really important for protein here is that we are getting complete, complete essential amino acids, or complete sources of amino acids, which, if you eat animal products, you're going to get that if you are vegetarian or vegan, you're going to have to get creative with the combinations of plant foods, plant based foods and the quantities to make sure you get your protein. And if necessary, then supplement with P or rice protein. Again, if you don't eat meat, or meat, eggs, dairy, soy, meat, eggs, and dairy are the big sources for omnivores. And the specific amino acid that we care most about as lifters trying to improve our body composition is leucine, because that's the one that supposed to contribute the most toward muscle muscle protein synthesis in terms of triggering it. And so this is this goes back to the discussion about not only getting enough protein, but spreading protein throughout the day to meet that threshold. But honestly, the most important thing is just getting enough. And then the rest is optimization. And the point with this podcast today is are you tracking these things? Are you tracking not only the macros, but the breakdown of the macros? Like the fiber, saturated fat, mega threes and the amino acids, you don't have to track those. I'm just making a point that you need to get enough and have it spread throughout the day. And tracking will help do that. All right. The last the I'll say last but not least kind of not the lowest priority. But the final piece to optimize all of this and result in good food selection for you is going to be micronutrients. So micronutrients are vitamins and minerals. And I'm not going to specify any one particular vitamin or mineral how much to get, because there are a ton. And there are the recommended daily allowances out there the minimums, so called minimums and then there's the minimums for individuals. So if you're a woman, who is in say, your 30s, right, and you need you need iron, you need a lot more iron than anyone else, right. Once you get to menopause, it drops to about the same level as men need or when you're younger, it's lower. But right in the middle, the middle there, women need a lot more iron, and if you've been anemic for example, it could just come down to iron consumption. You may not need an iron tablets, you may not need any special intervention, just track your iron. And if it's way less than that recommendation for your gender and your age. Look for foods that have higher iron that might be red meat, which by the way is awesome. It tastes good. It's nutrition and it's perfectly nutritious and perfectly healthy for you. If it's natural, lean sources of red meat versus for example, processed meats which we should limit it But I've had clients go through this where they've had low iron over and over again in their blood work. And when we say let's just bump up the amount of burgers, yeah, you know, mate, make some burgers at home, or bump up the certain types of meat or plants that have higher iron, and all of a sudden, because the iron consumption is up in the optimal range, the iron in the blood rises to where it needs to be. That's not always the case. But in many cases, that's that's what's going on is we have a deficiency, whether it's B vitamins, vitamin D, calcium, the electrolytes like magnesium and potassium, which you can get all these from food, selenium, Selenium is great for thyroid health and your metabolism. And so if you have the rumen near calories and macros, eating a couple Brazil nuts every day could get your Selenium exactly where it needs to be sodium, you may not have enough, you may have too much depends again on your goals, and your bloodwork and everything else. And zinc is another one, which is also good for immune system. Alright, so I'm not going to get into every single nutrient. My point here is, I asked you to think about the ones that are important to you. Think about any deficiencies you have. Go ahead and get bloodwork if you need to or get a vitamin mineral test a screening, and then look for foods that are higher in those go to the search engine. And just type in foods high in X, you know, high in B vitamins, high potassium, BT B vitamins are something that for example, vegetarians, vegans may not get enough of all right, so that's the fifth one to the framework. If you can track your food, for at least I'll say three months while following this framework for selecting your food, then, and then use that tracking as feedback to close the loop. And make sure you're actually satisfied each of those priorities. I think you're going to be significantly more educated. You're going to be an intelligent person when it comes to selecting foods that are high in quality for you, that satisfy you that make you feel great that help you reach your goals. So let's just recap the five food tracking priorities as a as a summary for the episode. Number one, how does the move make you? How's the food make you feel? digestion, hunger, energy, mood, sleep and so on. Number two, what's the energy level in your food in terms of calories? So that you can meet your energy balance and are aware of how much you're eating and how much you burn? Number three macronutrients are you getting enough protein are your fats where you need to be and are you getting enough carbs and tying that to your how you feel your energy recovery. Number four, the macro breakdown the sub macros if you will of carbs which would be fiber, fats, which would be saturated fat, Omega three, and protein which would be having complete amino acids. And then number five would be micros, micronutrients, vitamins and minerals, tracking those and making sure you get enough for your needs. Wits, & Weights community if you want to jump on a free 30 minute nutrition momentum call, just reach out using the link in my show notes. I'm not going to sell your pitch on anything, but I will help you gain perspective and guidance. For example, on the things that we talked about today, we can jump into those details if that's where you're struggling and figure out where you need to be to get on the right track toward looking and feeling your best. It's just you and me. We're coming together coming up with a game plan. For the biggest thing holding you back right now. That could be your relationship with food. That could be your training approach. You might be having a weight plateau. Whatever it is, we're going to dive deep so that you have concrete steps to break through that barrier and get closer to your results. Again, just use the link in my show notes and go ahead and book a free 30 minute nutrition momentum. Call with me. Next week for episode 60. We have an incredible interview with Andy Baker. Andy is a highly sought after strength coach. He's my personal barbell coach. He's the co author of two best selling books including the starting strength gray Brook grey book called practical programming. And you're going to learn all about mastering strength and programming to maximize your games. As always, stay strong and I will talk to you next time here on the Wits & Weights podcast. Thank you for tuning in to another episode of Wits & Weights. If you found value in today's episode, and know someone else who's looking to level up their Wits & Weights, please take a moment to share this episode with them. And make sure to hit the Follow button in your podcast platform right now to catch the next episode. Until then stay strong

Philip Pape 4/4/23 Philip Pape 4/4/23

Ep 58: Using High Energy Flux to Eat More, Burn More Fat, and Build More Muscle with Brandon DaCruz

This episode is jam-packed with knowledge about energy flux and the high energy flux lifestyle. It comes from no less than Brandon DaCruz, one of the brightest minds in the industry. I start off by asking Brandon about his background and what led him to fitness and coaching. Brandon shares that he started being active in weight-restricted sports at 10-11 years old, during which he was exposed to low energy availability and developed micronutrient deficiency. Brandon then proceeds to tell us about the similarities between his athletic profile and that of the general population. Then, we dive into energy flux and its benefits, such as how you can eat more, burn more fat and build more muscle. Most importantly, we talk about how jumping in aggressively is not the key, but strategically easing yourself into a high energy flux lifestyle is the way to go.

Brandon DaCruz is an online nutrition and physique coach, educator, internationally published fitness model, and National Level NPC competitor. He has been featured in publications like Men’s Fitness Magazine, Muscular Development, Bodybuilding.com, and the Alan Aragon Research Review, where he’s been a contributing author. He uses an evidence-based approach to help his clients achieve their goals sustainably.

__________
👩‍💻 Schedule your FREE 30-minute Nutrition Momentum Call with Philip here.
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Today you’ll learn all about:

[2:22] Brandon's background and personal journey
[7:28] Parallels between the his athletic experience and the general population
[12:20] Why Brandon can relate with many people
[15:43] What is energy flux?
[22:29] Benefits of the high energy flux lifestyle
[34:58] The process of switching to the high flux lifestyle
[44:43] Body recomposition with the high energy flux lifestyle
[50:33] High flux state without the additional physical activity
[57:30] Where to find Brandon and learn more about energy flux

Episode resources:

Chasing Clarity: Health & Fitness Podcast: https://apple.co/3K1lDfm
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/brandondacruz_/
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/brandondacruzfitness
Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/@chasingclarityhealthandfit7532

IG: @witsandweights
Email: philip@witsandweights.com

🥩 Download your Free Ultimate Macros Guide and 50 High-Protein Recipes here

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Transcript

Brandon DaCruz 00:00

So along with improving a client's ability to adhere, this approach helps them to improve their appetite regulation and hunger control, as moving more actually makes us more sensitive to satiety signals, so we can more easily manage our hunger and regulator energy intake on a daily basis. So this is a multi pronged benefit.

Philip Pape 00:19

Brandon DaCruz 02:19

Absolutely. Philip, thank you so much. And I feel like after that type of introduction, man, I'm done. I'm good. You covered it all. And we can let it be. But I hope that I'm able to rise up to those standards and really deliver a lot of value to both yourself, and also your audience.

Philip Pape 02:32

Man. And I know you will, because you know, every episode, you're on every show, I want to listen to it, because it's such good information. And you mentioned even before we recorded that, you know, you fit a lot into a short time. And that's okay, right? Because we're gonna get a lot of value. So do my best. Yeah. So let's give the audience a little bit of a twist on that background. And it's small chance they don't know you yet. So you've had this impressive career, you continue to help countless of people. But I'd like to know, what were those one or two life changing moments that influenced the philosophy and the values that you have as a coach? Oh,

Brandon DaCruz 03:03

man, that is such an interesting question. Because I think this is actually something I really don't get to cover is really like my background story as to how I even got into fitness, or how I got into coaching in and of itself, because my background is a little bit unique as compared to most people. So what's funny is oftentimes, I'll get on podcasts, or I'll have these interactions with individuals. And a lot of times it's about a very, you know, targeted, you know, topic, so energy flux, for instance, but I just get on and we start going right into the nation, yet rarely have I spoken about, like my own personal journey. So I hope, you know, I knew that you were interested in doing this. So I hope by doing so by sharing something with your audience, it will help to provide some insight as to why I'm so passionate about this, especially about coaching and then also why I'm always in this pursuit of expanding my education as my my goal in life really, on a daily basis is to learn more so I can serve more. So really, when it comes down to it, I had quite a bit of a different introduction to training and nutrition than many others that I've encountered and in space. And really what it comes down to is when I was a kid, you know, growing up, I was really competitive athlete, and I ended up becoming very focused, and unfortunately narrow mindedly focused in weight restricted sports, including martial arts, and then also endurance sports, like cross country indoor and outdoor track. And if you really think about the commonalities within these sports, you'll see that they have a weight control aspect to them, we're being lighter was seen as being an advantage. So I started getting told very early on we're talking 10 or 11 years old, by my coaches that I needed to watch my weight, I need to watch my food intake, which ended up resulting in me getting or developing disordered eating habits and suffering from what's now known, you know, what's been teased out in the literature as relative energy deficiency and sport. But at that time, that term hadn't even come into existence, because this was the early 2000s. And the concept of the actual concept of relative energy deficiency in sport wasn't recognized or quaint until the International Olympic Committee actually put out a consensus statement in 2014. So I'm about 14 years behind that, unfortunately. But um, I was basically in a situation of what's called low energy availability, where I would pretty much be training three to four hours a day, you're under fueling that activity in order to keep my weight down and stay within my weight classes. So doing due to being in this constant state of low energy availability, I developed a ton of micronutrient deficiencies, you're gonna notice a lot of commonalities of things I speak about, because of the experiences I dealt with previously. So if anyone's familiar with my content, they'll know I'm all about nutrient density. Well, it comes from the fact that I've suffered the ramifications of micronutrient deficiencies, I talk a lot about hormone health. And that came from literally having, you know, the hormone profiles of like an elderly individual in my teens due to this relative energy deficiency, and then also other injuries. So in my early teens, you know, I was dealing with all these issues, and what it really, you know, amounted to was having a spent about a year or period of time focused on rehabilitating these injuries. And at that time, my entire focus was on sports. So I did anything I needed to do to be able to get back into play. Well, luckily, despite the fact that a lot of these terms, and these conditions were unknown, in like the scientific literature, or even the medical, you know, community at the time, I was sent to a physical therapy clinic or facility ran by two individuals, one that happened to be a bodybuilder and nutritionist, and one that was a powerlifter. So really, what they taught me was, they really showed me the importance of building my body of strength training, resistance training, and all the benefits that I could have. And then they also educated me about the importance of nutrition and the need, or the benefit of fueling my body, you know, alongside the training that I was doing. So I literally was taught the exact opposite of what I had been doing for years. So this experience helped me to start viewing food as fuel rather than something I needed to restrict. And it also kicked off both my interest and my love for both nutrition for training. And this is, you know, surmounted into, like my greatest passion in life, like learning about these things, applying them and helping others. So it was natural that when I got into what I wanted to do, you know, later on, so I actually got into this condition at 11, I sustained, you know, I kind of continue that until 14. And that's really where I found educators that can help me along my journey. So I owe so much to Fitness First and foremost, but also, educating myself about it has been something that has really allowed me to help both myself get out of these chronic states of low energy availability and the things that I suffered early on in life, but also to help others. So I feel that as coaches, many of us gravitate towards covering topics and issues that we've dealt with, and helping clients avoid the mistakes and the bad experiences we've encountered. So it's one of my main goals with my coaching as I take what I call a health centric approach to coaching, right aim to bridge the gap between research and information, and then practical application by striking a balance between what's optimal for a client's goals and what's realistic and practical within the constraints of their lifestyle. Because, you know, a plan could look perfect on paper, but if someone can't execute it, it's useless. It's worthless.

Philip Pape 07:51

Yeah. Yeah, man. So there's a lot of parallels in what you're talking about, with what I hear from the general population, even who who have not had the athletic background you did and go through the relative energy deficiency from that perspective, you've probably seen your clients yourself many average clients who have done the yo yo diets and they've been in this constant state of dieting, I imagine it's pretty much the same thing. It's the same concept. And I know I don't always think of it in terms of a micronutrient perspective, even though it's one of the consequences. But I think it's helpful for people to do that. And then you talked about the building and Food is fuel and, and adding, adding, adding, not restricting it's kind of the fundamentals behind a lot of what we're talking about here. So do you see that? Would you say the parallels are that close? Or are there some differences between that athletic profile that you experienced versus the general population?

Brandon DaCruz 08:36

So I believe they they land on a spectrum? So what I was doing was training three to four hours a day, do I see that with my my lifestyle, our general population, right? No, but here's the thing with within my coaching, I don't coach just one niche. That's something I've never done. I've been coaching at this point for 10 years. And I never have, you know, a lot of people always ask me, like, what's your target population? Or what's your niche demographic? And I've never taken

Philip Pape 08:56

what your ideal client avatar? Yeah, I

Brandon DaCruz 08:58

get that question. Here's the thing I don't have when I specifically did that for a very purposeful reason. The reason behind that was I wanted to gain experience with people of all walks of life and all backgrounds. So really, if you were to ask me, like, what does my roster look like, I have everyone from lifestyle Leeson Gen pop gym, to I've taken guys to Olympia level stage, you know, that are competing at the highest level of sport in the IFBB. So I have such a wide spectrum of individuals that I work with, that it's caused me work no more. So what it's done is it's pushed me to learn more, so I could serve them better. And then also has really stretched the limitations of the bounds of my knowledge where I've had to keep digging, digging into both the literature and then also what I could apply in practice, and has caused me to learn a lot more. So at this point in my career, I work with a lot of, you know, business owners, I work with a lot of other fitness professionals. I work with a lot of advanced clientele. So the majority of people I work with at this point are intermediate or advanced, and they're really trying to get to that next level. However, I've worked with everyone you could think of with all different states have both, you know, in terms of psychological issues, but also physiological issues. So when we really look at the, I guess parallels between what I went through and what I see with the average clientele so if we really think about the average person, they've died many times in their life, I'll tell you, I do a very invasive or, you know, extensive consultation with people after that. And I've never, in the last at least five years, I have not had one person come to me once that has not been through multiple dieting cycles before. And that could be due to what I put out. So that's what I attract. However, the average person that I work with personally has went through multiple coaches, they've been through a lot of field programs they've read, they've lost weight to regain lost weight to regain. And again, they've been through these chronic cycles of yo yo dieting and this recidivism rate, where they've felt like a failure in the process, they've been able to attain a goal in terms of losing fat, you know, and we see that in the literature, we see that seven out of eight people that go into a fat loss diet, so approximately 86% of individuals who go into a fat loss phase will lose fat. So it's not that diets don't work. However, we do see a a very large recidivism rate where one year after completing a diet, generally 70 80% of individuals will have regained all the weight they lost. In two years of completing that diet, that statistic goes up to 85%. Within three years, we see between 95 to 97% of individuals who have lost weight will regain that weight. So it's not that we feel the actual weight loss process, we feel the maintenance process. And that's where I find a lot of lifestyle clients have been where they've been in this chronic state of over restriction and then over consuming. And so during the cyclical period, where they're never really at energy balance, they're never really fueling themselves appropriately. And they're also not where they want to be. So they continue to push themselves with this typical or prototypical approach of eat less, exercise more, and we're going to speak about some of the fallacies of that and why there's a better approach to it. However, there are a lot of commonalities between, I would say, within a spectrum, so I feel like I encounter or I see a lot of people in low energy availability, which is the number one underlying cause of relative energy deficiency, what do people have an heir to that total, you know, realm of relative energy deficiency, which we really do see in more athletic populations. So I have had individuals in CrossFit or in ballet dancers, I've seen endurance athletes come to me in that state. It's not as severe for most general population clients. But I will say, if you look a lot of my content, I cover a lot of the concept of metabolic adaptation. So you know, the down regulations we see that are diet induced, and I see a lot of people in a downregulated state.

Philip Pape 12:19

Yep. And I think it's important for the listener who's who's hearing this to say, hey, not only am I not alone in this history that Brandon's talking about here, just about everybody, you just said, pretty much every client you've seen has gone through this I have you have everybody has. So I mean, it's such a common thing that and so this is this kind of advice is applicable, even though you do also have that with that breadth and depth of knowledge. And I know you have that encyclopedic knowledge, always pull out on these podcasts. But before we get to the topic, I don't want to let you go too quickly on the personal stuff, because I do want to dig in one one more thing. You said you don't have too much opportunity to talk about that on show. So now I'm wondering, is there anything you've never shared on a podcast that you want people to know? Or would get people to know you better?

Brandon DaCruz 12:59

You know, I don't know if there's anything in particular that I've held back purposely. But really, when it comes down to it, I think that what a lot of individuals have to realize is that when you see a coach that has a lot of experience and knowledge in a sector, it can come from multiple avenues. But when you hear me speak on a topic, a lot of people like you you just mentioned, like an encyclopedia acknowledge of things or an ability to recite a lot of information. And the real reason that I'm able to do that is because a lot of the things I speak on, I've went through myself, we're talking about I've went through periods of low energy availability, I've went through the body fat overshooting effects, where you know, I've competed 15 times on season offers, I'll tell you the first time that ever went through a contest prep, I texted my coach the morning after the show asking for what do we do now? You know, at the time, there was no reverse dieting. This is more than 10 years ago. And so I was looking for a plan to transition out. And he never answered me again. And so despite me paying for the, you know, you know, an elongated panic. It was like you got this stage and you're done. Go get a cheat meal. And I never hear from you again. And so I went through one I had actually a trip right after I had a business trip that I went on the I actually flew out the morning after that first show. So it's now in a new environment, I didn't have access to normal, you know, normal food. At the time, there was no Uber, there was no Uber Eats for that matter. And so I was really limited. And I ended up going through a massive rebounding that not only hurt me physiologically in terms of, you know, gaining excess adipose tissue, having inflammatory markers, you know, inducing greater levels of insulin resistance or losing insulin sensitivity. But it also psychologically hurt me because I went from being the best shape of my life. And two weeks later, when I returned from this trip, not only did I not recommend it myself, but a lot of my friends in the gym didn't either. And then I'm getting all these comments. So what a lot of people need to realize or what I would like to share with people is I've been where you are. And I've went through these experiences. And the reason I have such a great amount of knowledge on these topics that I speak on quite frequently is because I'm a big proponent of practicing what I preach. So I don't just you know, I always tell my clients I live in and I love it. So any of these things that you hear me speak about, I'm pulling from my own personal practice as well as having applied it with other individuals, but also a lot of the Reasons why I have a, I guess a depth and a breadth of knowledge on a lot of topics is because I've suffered from these things I've been insulin resistance, I've had you know downregulated bloodwork, I've went through the metabolic adaptations, I have seen what the, the negative consequences of being in a low fluoxetine that we'll speak about later, is where you're eating less, and you're essentially unable to do anything, you're pretty much you know, besides your, your exercise, and your training sessions and your mandatory cardio that you're doing, you're basically like a slug on the couch, because you're so downregulated in terms of all your internal processes. So a lot of these things, it's through the experience that I went through myself. And I think that's really what differentiates a lot of people. There's a lot of individuals within our space that claim to be evidence based. And don't get me wrong, they have a lot of intellect. And they have a lot of knowledge on a topic, but they've never applied it in the trenches. And that's what really differentiates coach's knowledge without application is useless. So you can know all the statistic, you know, all the studies in the world. But if you had the inability, or you don't have the experience having applied booths with actual individuals in the real world in a free living condition, you really need to be a little more cautious about how you put information out.

Philip Pape 16:07

Yeah, I totally agree. I mean, I would never have worked with anybody unless I personally had gone through a transformation myself that took four decades to figure things out and get to scratching the surface of where you're at. And then actually starting to help people and realizing that everyone is so different. We're all the same, but we're different, right? So the principles apply to everyone. But the individual methods and applications may differ. So I want to unleash the beast here and get into the topic, right? Let's just talk about energy flux, and high energy flux lifestyle, because I don't think I had heard that term until you brought it up. And even looking at the literature. It's not it's not like all over the place, like some other topics. So what is it? What are the different types that someone can be in?

Brandon DaCruz 16:44

Actually art. So you know, it's funny that you comment on that, because this is actually a an approach, which I'll definitely go into detail and explain. But I just want to give a little caveat, because it is something that I started utilizing in the trenches first. And I don't want to say reach out research caught up. But there's a lot of things that when we look at evidence based practice, it's a three pronged approach. So eight is the experience is the body of literature, what the literature states on a topic, then it is the experiences and the expertise of the practitioner, which in our case, heart is us as the coach. And then it's also the preferences and the abilities of the client themselves. So this was actually a philosophy or an approach that I didn't have an aim for. But I was utilizing since 2015, or 2016. And it was a rough approximation of what it is today. However, in 2018, they actually put a term to it. So Chris Melby, put the term energy flux to it. And so then at that point, I was able to pull some literature, but I was looking at things going back to the early 2000s, where there didn't have a term for it, but I was seeing the practical application and the benefits of it. So really, you know, energy flux technically refers to our state of energy turnover in the body. So basically, the concept centers around the relationship between the amount of energy we consume on a daily basis, and how much energy we expend through all forms of physical activity, including both our intentional exercise and our daily movement. So any forms of physical activity, which would essentially contribute to that physical activity energy expenditure. So essentially, what we're looking to do with using energy flux is to get to a state of energy balance, which can be reached using either a low or a high energy flux approach, which will depend on the amount of calories we consume, and the amount of activity we engage in on a daily basis. So if we're in a low energy flux state, we'd be maintaining our current body composition and our current body weight through eating a low amount of calories coupled with low activity levels. And as a coach, I have a ton of individuals who come to me who have either hit a wall or a plateau in their fat loss progress, or have, you know, this really long history of dieting, and when I do a consultation with them, and I look over their data, I'm looking over all their sheets, I usually find that many of them are in this low energy flux state, whether they intend to be or not, or whether they realize it or not. So this isn't a term that people come to me and say, Hey, Brandon, you know, I'm in this low flux state, can you get me out of it? I mean, give me some, right. But it is something that when you had the knowledge on a topic, you're able to, especially when you have knowledge on something, you also have experience dealing with it, you're able to spot it out more. And really what this comes down to is, it's because many have died using that prototypical eat less approach as their calorie intake has gotten lower, their total daily energy expenditure has dropped. And with that their metabolic rate has slowed down as well, as a result of the metabolic adaptation that comes along with weight loss. So from the energy in perspective, they're consuming very little calories, but the energy in like, what we have to realize is energy in and energy outside the energy balance equation are closely tied to one or the other. So as they've continued to eat less in an effort to lose weight, their knee levels have significantly dropped as well. And this is why, you know, many are in this low flux state, whether they realize it or not, as they've spent significant periods of time putting less energy into the system in the form of food, and they're getting less energy expenditure out as a result of eating less and thus moving less. So eventually, they get into this place where they either can't, you know, eat less, you know, they hit this wall, you know, I mean, whether it's for compliance or it's due to exhaustion or dietary fatigue or whatever it may be more or they incur so many adaptations on the energy expenditure side of things that they plateau and reach a state of energy balance. But they do so in a manner where they're eating very little and don't really have the energy to move much. So they're in this downregulated, low energy flux state. And this is what I often refer to as a restriction based model of maintenance. Meaning if we try to stay lean, using this approach, we're going to have to restrict calories long term over the long term to do so which if you really think about it, like if you're in this dieted down state, that's not only, you know, unsustainable, it's not realistic. And it's not a desirable approach for any of us. None of us want it, you know, we might do a 12 week or 16 week fat loss things. But we don't want to be that, in that perpetual state of dieting, we don't always want to be in this energy restricted state. Now, on the opposite side of the energy flux spectrum, we have what I refer to as the high energy flux approach. And when we're in a high energy flux approach, we're able to maintain both our body and our body composition by eating more and being more physically active, which allows us to increase our calorie intake much higher than it is in this lower energy flux state as the increase in activity is keeping us in energy balance. So we're able to eat more and stay lean, despite eating more, because it's actually acting almost like a buffer, that activity is buffering out those extra calories. So being in this high energy, flaxseed is more of what I like to consider an abundance based mindset or an abundance based model of maintenance, meaning you put more energy into fueling your body. And as a result, your body is able to burn more calories, because it has significant energy availability, to fuel all these processes. So fundamentally, when we look at the two, the biggest difference difference between whether we're in a low flux, or a high energy flux state is how active we are, and how many calories we're eating to match our level of activity. And here's the thing, I want to be very frank and transparent about this, because a lot of times when I speak about this on podcast, a lot of people kind of take the information that I that I put out there and they say, Oh, we can only do this through high flux. That's not what I'm saying, you know, you could stay lean through either approach. However, within my experience, coaching, I've seen the high flux model tend to work better, as most of us we have to be honest, we have to be transparent. Most of us prefer to eat more, it's less, it's much more sustainable. And also, most people not only from a physiological standpoint, but also a psychological standpoint, being in a state of chronic restriction is something many of us don't want to do, nor can do year round.

Philip Pape 22:16

Yeah, I see that all the time branded with clients, a lot of female clients come to me they've been restricting for years, the first thing we want to do is get them out of that anymore. And they're so surprised often when they find it, they don't gain weight, right, because they're moving more as well at the same time, and then go into that fat loss phase and can eat two or 300, or more calories more than they had the last time they did this. And unfortunately, there's diets out there like some that I'm not going to name one starts with an O that actually encourage that low energy flux approach with hay, go on these restricted calories and stop moving. And it's just a

Brandon DaCruz 22:46

sub exercise exercise not effective for weight loss. That's what they'll say.

Philip Pape 22:50

Exactly, exactly. It's crazy. Okay, so let's talk about some of the benefits. I do like to nerd out on this stuff a bit. Whether the listener too, does or does or not, but if they've stuck with me subscribe to this podcast they generally do. Some of the benefits are, are beyond beyond just what you said, which is the sustainability and the ability to eat more and do this for the long term. Things like thermogenesis and fat oxidation, right? And satiety, right, because you're eating more and health markers, like maybe we can explore some of those other benefits from high energy flux lifestyle.

Brandon DaCruz 23:22

Absolutely. And so really, when it comes down to it, one of the primary reasons why I've spoken about the high energy flux lifestyle on so many podcasts over the years, why I've done presentations, like I've flown out across the country and done presentations on this. And why also I'm such a proponent of it is because, you know, because of the benefits that I've seen, not only myself because this is something I utilize day in and day out or during specific phases within my own life and have used utilize for years. But I've also utilized it with hundreds of clients I've worked with over the years. And as a coach, I try to take principles that are research backed, and then I try to find the best way to apply them to the individual client that I'm working with. And I found that the high energy flux approach has allowed me to get a great result in many of my clients and also have provided them with a ton of physiological, psychological and metabolic health benefits. So really, when it comes down to it, I truly believe that when it comes to coaching clients in the real world, we cannot separate a client's psychology from their physiology as our brain and body are closely tied, and the body isn't going to respond if our minds aren't in the right place. So one of the most important benefits that I see clients get from taking a high flex approach is being able to better adhere to eating a nutrient dense, micronutrient rich diet as moving more allows them to eat more and maintain a higher calorie intake which leads to many other downstream effects. So within that, you know this concept or this approach are really what I like to refer to as a lifestyle because it's all encompassing, it's just not just one thing, it's just not walking. It's it's a multifactorial approach to improving your body composition, your health and your life. But really within this lifestyle, we're gonna see better diet adherence and consistency, which when we really think about it from a coaching conceptual framework, that is the foundation Under making progress, we're not able to adhere to a program, we're not able to do it not only one, it's not about what you can do one day, you know, it's about what you can do day after day, and be able to stay consistent enough to elicit a compounding effect. And within that, we're going to be able to get clients because they're eating more, they're going to get more food variety, more food flexibility, they're going to be able with that increased calorie budget to get a greater micronutrient intake. So now we're going to upregulate all these internal processes, we're getting more minerals, more vitamins, and cofactors, necessary for not only energetic processes, but also for the upregulation of hormones. So I'll tell you personally, I have a lot of females that come to me in this low flux state. But also when I'm checking your bloodwork and your lab analysis, I'm looking at down regulations and markers. So from being in a state of low energy availability, I'm seeing down regulations and estradiol, I'm seeing down regulations and progesterone, sometimes they're suffering from amenorrhea, which is a loss of the menstrual cycle function. And really, technically, that would be the loss administration for three, three cycles, or more, or technically 90 days or more. But also within that one of the most common hormonal perturbations were hormonal dysfunctions that I see within clientele that come to me, or downregulation, is in thyroid production. So remember, thyroid is one of the most closely tied hormones to our metabolic function. So when we go into the state of low energy flux, where you're putting less energy into the system, you're getting less energy out, one of the ways in which our body does that you sit down regulate thyroid production, so we'll generally see decreases in T three, three, T three, T four and three, T four. And so within that you're burning less calories, because your body's trying to conserve energy in any way that it can. So we see hormonal downshift. But within this high flux model, I'm able to up regulate those processes, including increasing their thyroid production keys. Now, I'm not only providing them with enough calories to be able to upregulate that hormone production, but also the key and important micronutrients, selenium, zinc, iodine, things like that, that are necessary for the synthesis of thyroid and also the conversion of T four to metabolically active T three, I also within this increase in energy, we're getting improved energy levels. So along with improving a client's ability to adhere, this approach helps them to improve their appetite regulation, and hunger control, as moving more actually makes us more sensitive to satiety signals. So we can more easily manage our hunger and regulate our energy and take on a daily basis. So this is a multi pronged benefit. So not only is getting into this, this moving more eating more philosophy or approach going to allow you to eat more, so you're gonna be more satiated, but also, you're gonna be more sensitive to those be more in tune with your hunger cues. So you're not only eating more and getting fuller, but you're also having a better fullness response. And you're able to stop yourself from, you know, some of the, you know, I don't want to say bad, but some of the suboptimal habits that you might have had in the past and what I often get his feedback from clients that they feel fuller, and are better able to avoid a lot of the binge restrict cycles that they've had in the past, as now they're feeling themselves better on a daily basis. So it's not like they're going from their previous habits, which really was, you know, they were on one end of the spectrum where they were under eating during the week, and then going overboard on the weekend. So they were what I call a weekday Dieter, Monday through Friday, they're over restricting ourselves, they're skipping meals, they're fasting, they're doing all these, you know, fad diets, low carb, whatever it may be. And then on the weekends, they're going overboard, because now they have this insatiable hunger, and they have a dysregulation of their, their appetite in their satiety cues. And they're also in this low flux state where they're downregulated from having put themselves in a deficit where severe deficit all week, so now when they increase their calories on the weekend, they're more susceptible to that weight, and that that gain because now they're in a very large surplus, because they're in a state of positive energy balance. Now, when it comes to other benefits, you know, the high flux lifestyle is also something I've used to help my clients get lean and stay lean, as maintaining a high level of physical activity has been shown to be one of the key predictors of both Fat Loss Success and even more importantly, fat loss maintenance. And this is also something we see reinforced in research from places like the National Weight Control Registry, which if you're familiar with that it's essentially a database of successful dieters, and what habits they have. And so they look at individuals that have not only lost a significant amount of matter weight, but I've kept it off for a significant period of time. And what their data shows and finds is that one of the most common traits among those who have been successful in losing weight and keeping it off is they engage in very high amounts of physical activity daily. So what their studies have found is that those who have lost a significant amount of weight and have kept it off for a year plus average around 2500 calories burned through physical activity per week, where and when they actually did a step count estimate or they tracked these individuals actual activity levels came out to a little over 12,000 steps per day. So these individuals that are maintaining weight loss are engaging in high levels of physical activity. So they're hitting their steps, they're making sure that they're getting their walks in, they're very physically active. And that's one of the key principles behind being able to not only lose weight, because many of us can do that. However, being able to keep it off long term because a lot of these individuals have maintained they have to maintain at least 30 pounds of weight loss. However, the average person the National Weight Control Registry as of last update to it has maintained at least 30 kilograms So around 65 to 66 pounds over a course of three years. So that's significant weight loss that they've been able to not only lose, but maintain, which is a huge victory. Now, I've also seen many metabolic benefits in the clients, I've transitioned into high energy flux approach, as the increase in activity allows for better insulin sensitivity, better nutrient partitioning, and increases with called glute for translocation. So now we're able to upregulate the uptake of glucose in the cells without the need for insulin. And within that, I've also seen better blood glucose management. So for instance, one of the I really like habit stacking, so I'm sure you're familiar with James clear, you know, atomic habits, but I'm really like doing things where I'm adding an activity to already existing activity. So one activity we all do on a daily basis, no matter who you are, whether you train or not, we all eat. And so what I have my clients do is I had them utilize post meal walks. And that's been shown to cause a significant decrease in the area under the curve in terms of both insulin elevation and duration, but also helps with blood sugar management and regulation. And so this is something I see reflected in my clients facet and postprandial blood glucose metrics, as well as in their labs. As you know, I'm a big proponent of monitoring health, I always say healthy bodies responsive by so I'm big on monitoring things like insulin sensitivity, and and those who have had increased their activity and get into this high flux state. I've seen improvements in markers, like their HPA one see their triglyceride levels and their facet insulin levels, in addition to those blood glucose metrics that I track on a weekly basis. And so we're seeing multiple multipronged benefits. I mean, there's so many that we can go through from a metabolic health perspective to a training perspective, and, you know, anything that you want to get into.

Philip Pape 31:33

And I think, I think, I think people are sold on this read as potentially a really good, good idea. You know, you were actually I've probably the first person I heard talk about the postman walks and comparing it to type two diabetes medication. And I tend to refer to that a lot when people talk about blood sugar regulation.

Brandon DaCruz 31:50

Absolutely. And that's actually a fascinating study that they've done on that. So if you want me to expand on that a little bit more, just so the audience gets a little understanding of that. I've been doing it. Alright. So in the early 2000s, they did a lifestyle intervention study. And really what that looked at was looking at the number one prescribes, which is a great drug. It's called Metformin. And now I see that, and keep in mind, some of the experience that I had my father died of diabetes, so I was, you know, helping a diabetic my entire life. But also, I've worked with many people with pre diabetes, insulin resistance, type two diabetes, and even type one diabetes. And now the number one prescribed drug for type two diabetes prevention, and treatment is a drug called Metformin, aka glucose rush. So what they did was, they took a controlled study, and he did a three year long term study looking over the course of different interventions. So they had a control group, they, which did nothing, no intervention, they had a lifestyle group within that lifestyle group, but they had to do was 150 minutes of walking, you know, just brisk walking and physical activity per week, plus, they had them lose 7% of their body weight. And so it was both diet and lifestyle intervention. So both movement and, you know, nutritional interventions, and then they had a Metformin group only. But within the Metformin group, the caveat to that is that they use a dose at the higher end of the spectrum. So it was if we're going to see significant reductions in the industry, or the likelihood of type two diabetes development, we would see it from that high dose, I believe, if I'm remembering off the top of my head, it was around 1800 to 1800 50 milligrams. And now the top end of what you would see endocrinologist or doctors prescribe Metformin that is 2000. Now the starting dose is 500. So this was a very potent dose of metformin. And so within that, they tracked people over the course of three years. And they found that those in the lifestyle group were twice, those who utilize the lifestyle intervention, meaning walking consistently over the course that three years and they lost and maintain that 7% reduction in body weight, we're almost twice as or twice as unlikely to develop type two diabetes as those Metformin groups. So that's where we get that that quote, where walks the post meal walks are twice as effective Estimate form, and I believe it was, it was like a 30% difference between the two. So it wasn't exactly twice however, it was very significantly sets are statistically significant in terms of the differentiation between the improvements and the reductions in type two diabetes, advancement in the lifestyle group as compared to the best drug we have in the market. So when I say movement is medicine, I mean, there is some we have research and then we also have like the practical things we see in the trenches. And so it really, that's just research that reinforces so many of the benefits that we see, especially from like a blood glucose perspective and metabolic health perspective, we see that, you know, it lowers the insulin area under the curve, it lowers blood glucose levels. And also really, when it comes down to it when we have muscle muscle is our biggest metabolic buffer, it essentially acts as a glucose sink. So the more muscle you have, the more you move it, the more it's almost like a drain. So if you have the sink, muscles, a sink, you keep building muscle, you're gonna expand that sink so you can you could fill up more water, more carbohydrates in that sink, but also, physical activity and training acts as a dream. So the more activity you do, the more active you are in your day to day life, the more you can drain that sink and put more in there. So it's it's almost like allowing you to Increase your carbohydrate uptake, your carbohydrate tolerance, and then your ability to live a life of abundance because a lot of us like eating carbs, we like, you know, having high carb meals and things that's where we also don't want to suffer the deleterious effects of things like insulin resistance, pre diabetes, or type two diabetes, which is on the rise, especially in today's generation,

Philip Pape 35:18

a lot there man out there to unpack right. And so, I mean, the principle that we're talking about here is the energy flux, lifestyle, the movement, the being active, and training and building muscle and all the things we talk about all the time as, Hey, these are the big pillars of, of a whole body, you know, nutrition approach and living a healthy lifestyle. Also have the side benefits of all these health, health health benefits and let you eat more. Who doesn't want all of that? Hey, this is Philip. And I hope you're enjoying this episode of Wits & Weights. If you're finding value in the content and want to stay up to date with all our latest episodes, be sure to hit the Follow button on your favorite podcast platform. By following you'll get notified whenever a new episode comes out. And you won't miss out on knowledge and strategies to level up your health and fitness. All right, let's get back to the episode. So somebody might be listening and thinking, okay, from a practical perspective, if I had the the typical story most people have of the yo yo dieting, and I want to start this and I have a little excess weight to lose. Because what we're talking about her mostly is either maintenance or fat loss. Generally, maybe we can also talk about on the building side where this is relevant. But maintenance and then fat loss. Where would someone start? Because I'm guessing you don't want to just get them right into fat loss and the stressor that comes with that, as well as all the other habits that they haven't developed? How exactly would you walk them through that to develop an energy flux lifestyle, and then say, Okay, now let's hit the gas pedal, because this fat loss is going to be so much easier.

Brandon DaCruz 36:43

Alright, so I'm going to try to do this as concisely as possible because it is a very detailed process. So if I was to take you through my process, we'd be on an hour consultation just discussing it just for you and I. And so I have so many different client avatars or different demographics that I work with that it's very client specific and person Pacific. However, the it comes down to a fundamental principle of coaching wishes to meet the client where they're at. So we have to get some things, we have to get some fundamental principles in check first and foremost. So first, I need to see their baseline level activity, I need to see their nutritional intake, the consistency, their dieting, history, their bloodwork, many other variables to take into consideration. However, if I have a general lifestyle client, for instance, if we do like a case study right now, and I have someone that comes to me, and they have say, 20 pounds, 30 pounds to lose, like the average average person that would come to me 30 pounds to lose, and they're in a state if you want to get that.

Philip Pape 37:36

Can I throw you some more variable? Let's say, let's say she's perimenopause, a female. Okay. Right. And getting that AB AB for abdominal fat, you know, with with changes, has hit many plateaus and feels like she just can't lose weight. It's just not possible. She can't lose weight. Right. And maybe she's straining maybe she's not she's probably not doing it properly yet. Right. And doesn't get maybe gets 5000 steps a day. That some good data to start with?

Brandon DaCruz 38:01

Yeah, absolutely. So first and foremost, if I get anyone in perimenopause, I'm going to do a large educational component on the efficacy and the necessity of resistance training. Because what do we see in perimenopause and the transition to menopause, which could be a five to 10 year transitionary period. And I tell you, I work with so many women in that transitionary period, what we see is we see perturbations in their hormone production. So essentially, what ends up happening is they're getting menstrual cycle dysfunction. So we're seeing elongated menstrual cycles, we're seeing the loss administration eventually because that is what the menopause is, is 12 months without without a menstrual cycle. So within that, we are seeing down regulations and extra dial production and progesterone, but with that decrease in estradiol comes deleterious effects to cardiovascular health. So we see lipids increase, we see a higher propensity to cardiovascular disease, we see increased adiposity. But oftentimes, you actually look at the literature, women that are going through perimenopause don't actually gain an excessive amount of weight, it might be a few pounds, however, what they do is they have a higher predisposition towards storing fat instead of subcutaneously to visceral adiposity. And now the visceral adiposity is in the central cavity. So we see it around the organs and around the gut. So that's why we'll see women, a lot of times they'll have your waist expand, you'll have, you'll be taking on more of an Android fat pattern, which is more along the lines of how guys store fat. And what comes along with that is if you actually looked at the literature before with pre menopausal women as compared to men, men are at a much higher predisposition towards cardiovascular disease because of our predisposition towards storing visceral adiposity. However, once we get into perimenopause and postmenopausal females, their propensity or their likelihood of cardiovascular disease increases astronomically. And that's because of the downregulation. And estrogen along with the decrease in estradiol comes a loss in bone mineral density, which is where we see an increase in fracture risk, we see osteoporosis and all these other deleterious effects of lowered bone mineral density. So the first thing I'm doing is getting that female increasing energy flux through resistance training, which is an approach I take with them. Any, because many people come to me, they're already, you know, resistant training junkies, I normally work with intermediate individuals, I never be honest with you at this point in my career, I never had someone come to me at this point where they say they've never touched me. So it's never like I have a newbie that hasn't had weight training experience. However, this was the case where this individual either didn't have a training experience for has just won a prolonged period of time, without retraining, if I hadn't put you know, we had a, you know, essentially a prioritization list, I'm gonna make sure they resist and train first. And technically, that's going to increase energy expenditure. So we're going to increase energy flux through that increase in movement. And I'm gonna get her doing laps around the gym and increasing steps through that. And then, but you said 5000 steps, that's, that's spot on, you know why, because right before COVID, they had done some analysis of the average American step count, and the average was around 5100 steps per day, that's what the average American was getting pre COVID. And so within that she's getting 5000 steps per day. But really where we see like the baseline level needed for I don't want the optimal metabolic function, but enhance metabolic function is around 8500 steps per day, however, we have to realize the integral part of coaching is meeting people where they're at. So within energy, first, what I would do is first and foremost, just like I would do with her body weight, and with her calorie intake, I want to get a maintenance on everything, I want to get an ability to register exactly what she's doing consistently, not just one day that she gives me data for. So I would do is over the course of one to two weeks, I would track specific variables, I would have her track her body weight daily, so that I can ease out any fluctuations in body weight and get an average weekly scale weight. First and foremost, then I'm going to look at her average caloric intake and see if she anyway, is she losing weight, if she's maintaining her weight over two weeks, her weight staying stable, enter calorie intake stable, I know what her maintenance calorie intake is. And then I'm also doing the same thing with step tracking. So I'm having her get a pedometer or a Fitbit weren't wearing something that can consistently it doesn't have to be it's not about the accuracy, it needs to be about the precision and the reliability of data. So there's a difference between, you know, accuracy, and then validity and reliability just needs to be reliable. Because a lot of these fitness trackers, they're off, especially in terms of their energy expenditure stuff, so I don't utilize it for that. However, even if they're off 10% on steps, it doesn't matter, because I just need to see what her baseline is. So if she comes in, and over those two weeks, she is stable at 1600 calories. And she is currently you know, her weight stable at 160 pounds, she is she eating 600 calories, and she's at 5000 steps per day. This is where first adjustment I'm going to make as on the nutritional front, so I always say eat more, move more, it's not move more first, because that's a big misconception, a lot of people automatically go to the move more first, really, I want to get her into better nutritional habits. First and foremost, I want to put energy into the system. So she has both the the energy from a fuelling perspective to engage in more activity. And also she's going to get an upregulation in energy production and just most likely non exercise Activity Thermogenesis just due to eating more and fueling yourself better. Obviously, I'm going to modify the quality of the diet, the food choices and all those selections from within that I'm going to slowly titrate it up. So a big fallacy that I see is that people will take a very drastic approach to energy flux with the approach that they take. So one of the you know, I'll tell you a perfect example. I recently just had someone contact me. And essentially what they did was they asked, or they told me a situation where one of their coaches had heard me on a podcast. And so he wanted to apply this energy flux approach. However, one of the issues with that was he aggressively increased steps way to in way too quick manner. So in this specific instance, this person went from 8000 steps that they were doing consistently. So they had track steps before they were an experienced trainee, they went from 8000 or 1000 to 15,000. Now, here's the thing that makes no physiological or rational sense, as what programming variable within coaching, would we double in the span of a week, like, Phil, hear me out, if you saw someone come to you and they had doubled their training volume in a week or they had doubled their calories in week, that drastic of an increase, not only is going to put so much stress in the system, it's going to throw so much noise into the signal, we can't even differentiate what's going on or how compliant that person can be or how consistent they can be with that. So really, it's about meeting them where they're at. If she's at 5000, I may just make a bumpy week of 100 calories and 1000 steps, see where she can respond. And from there, I'm gonna be moderating both her biofeedback in terms of how her body composition changes, especially we've added resistance training, we've improved your food quality, we've probably increased protein, you know, now she's most likely I see a lot of women in this situation where the recumbent and so she haven't had improvements in body composition, first and foremost, but also energy, she's going to have higher amounts of energy expenditure. So we've upregulated all these systems that have been downregulated. And that is an important component of people are especially women that are in perimenopause, because what we see is they have a redistribution not only of body fat in terms of storing more visceral fat, but they also have the loss in lean body mass due to the decrement in the hormones that they have. So that's why I said I would start with resistance training with this female in particular, because we need to offset that we need there's a catabolic stimulus in the system, essentially which is perimenopause. However, we need to balance that out with the anabolic stimulus of resistance training which is going to increase muscle protein synthesis. We're going to Couple that with nutrient timing with proper protein intake on a daily basis, as well as a protein distribution, making sure that she has many meals throughout the day in order to stimulate muscle protein synthesis, say every three to four hours. And we're going to be able to improve her body composition, her energy expenditure or energy levels, and really take a multifaceted approach to putting her into his eye high energy flux approach, but also mitigating a lot of the symptomology that she'll be experiencing due to being in this transitionary period to menopause.

Philip Pape 45:27

Yeah, yeah, that makes makes such sense. And I love that you just jumped right out with a strength training pillar number one, because that's, that makes such a huge difference. I've seen that with clients. And I do have more new newbie clients that haven't trained. And it's so rewarding to get them into that and just all of a sudden see all these extra benefits, you would you wouldn't think, including moving away from that obsession on the scale, as you started to see, you know, your waist size go down and the visceral fat start to get reduced and you feel better and all these things. Well, what am I community members she had asked Carol, he wanted to ask you a question about body composition, body recall, and fat loss for women over 40. Which is why I asked these questions because I have a lot of clients like that. And you basically just effectively laid out the fact that even at this maintenance level, you can start to achieve the body recomp. Is there any anything else going? Like? Would you keep a client like that in that state for quite a while just take advantage of that.

Brandon DaCruz 46:15

So honestly, if we go to the the topic of body recomposition, which is something I find fascinating, but first and foremost, there is that when I go through literature, I am looking through every single section, you could think of methodology section, I'm looking through limitations, I'm looking through the the author's discussion. And what's really interesting is there's a study that it's it's billed as a protein study, it's by long on April 2016, I believe it's the best recomp study that we have to date, they actually put these individuals there were former rugby players that had been D trained, they put them in a 40% deficit. So technically, they're not at maintenance, they're in a severe deficit. However, they did molt, they took a multifaceted approach. And so what they did was they utilized it was two groups. So they had a low protein group and a high protein group, a low protein group was at 1.2 grams per kilogram per day. And the high protein group, I believe, was at 2.4 grams per kilogram per day. And so utilize, and we're going to really speak on focus on high protein group, because those were the most, I guess, astronomical benefits that we saw. And something that's really applicable to anyone that has a body recomposition. All

Philip Pape 47:13

right, just to convert that that's a little over a gram per pound. Absolutely. So

Brandon DaCruz 47:16

2.2 grams per pound, would be technically one gram, so we're looking at about 1.1 grams per pound. So a high protein approach in a deficit. And so what they did was they use a multifaceted approach. But if you were to just read the abstract, you would never see this as a study, you really have to get the full text, if you look through all this stuff, but really, when you tease it out, they took the multifaceted approach. And this is what they did. They did a high protein approach, they use a large energy deficit, but they utilize it over a short period of time was 30 day trial. And so within that, they use six days of resistance training. So they did a combination of high intensity interval training, as well as you know, you know, higher volume, so moderate to high volume resistant training, hard training sessions to failure. So we have an effective stimulus. And then they had an activity component, which you have to really like tease through, you know, they don't actually overtly say that. But when you actually look at their predominant in their activity, data, they ravaging 12,000 steps per day. So it was multifaceted. High protein, there was high protein, moderate carbohydrate in that higher protein group, low fat. They did, it was an extreme deficit. That's not what I'm recommending. But they saw one of the most substantial increases in fat free mass and a loss in body fat within that 30 day period. And so they showed substantial recomp. So this is where we take those findings. And we apply it a little bit differently to someone that wants to recommit maintenance. So we're we include all these components that are necessary for body recomposition. So we're going to look at high protein intake, first and foremost. So we're maximally stimulated muscle protein synthesis, you know, if that person's at maintenance, or even if they're in a slight deficit, because really, when it comes down to body composition, I really like putting people right in a slight deficit, so we're oxidizing body fat. So we'll put them in a slight deficit, we put them at a higher protein intake. So they have, they're able to maximize muscle protein synthesis, you're able to rebuild and actually build tissue. And then from there, we're gonna utilize the combination of resistance training. So other high intensity effort is going to be in the gym. And then outside of that, we would use walks, we would use steps to get low intensity activity, that's non stressful. And actually, when you actually look at the the benefits, or the research behind walking, it's one of the only activities where it's going to, you know, not only decrease stress and cortisol, but you know, it's something that it's one of the only physical activities that are actually going to decrease cortisol and it puts you in that parasympathetic state. So it helps to balance out

Philip Pape 49:26

the stress. It's a form of recovery. It's a form of cardio that helps you recover. Yeah. And really, when

Brandon DaCruz 49:30

we look at like, I'll tell you, from my own experience with trainers, with trainees is actually seen improve their training performance because they have an upregulation their training capacity, so that improvement in aerobic fitness has a ton of carryover into their training performance and the recovery capacity. So not only is a recovery capacity improved in between sets, so I'm talking about you know, if I was to tell a client to do a higher rep set of hacks was prior to doing or utilizing this higher energy flux approach. They're gasping in between sets and they're needing three to five minutes. What they're able to do is really improved their work capacity, but it's mainly through the fact that they have better aerobic fitness, they have better nutrient delivery, they have better blood flow, which is helping all the recovery capacity, but they have better endurance and better aerobic fitness in between sets and in, in between workouts. So we're seeing this benefit, this multi pronged benefit. And then from there also, when you're more active, you have better aerobic fitness, you have better cardiovascular fitness, it applies to not only in the gym, a lot of times, we are always thinking, you know, especially as trainers, who is thinking very narrow mindedly in the one hour of the day that we spend in the gym, but it's benefiting all other aspects of our life. So with this woman, if she's a mother, for instance, I work with many, you know, mothers are business owners that are women that are, you know, typing individuals, they have so much going on, they're highly stressed. So now, instead of having them any hate classes, you know, breaking down their body in a catabolic state, and they're overly stressed and adding to that allostatic load, all their their stresses are contributing to, you know, decreases in sleep quality and increases in cortisol and all these negative ramifications. What I'm doing is I'm helping them distressed by doing an activity like walks in nature, I'm having them walk post workout, I'm having them walk in the morning and really be able to center their circadian rhythms. So they have better sleep quality at night, they're really focused, they have the recovery capacity and the ability to put all their intensity for that one hour of the resistant training session so we can maximize the body composition benefits. And also, we're getting the ability for them to eat more and get all the benefits of that increase in energy availability and micronutrient availability.

Philip Pape 51:25

Awesome. Yeah, I know that we talked about that all the time here. And it's one of the things that was a revelation to me, Brandon, back when I started training properly for the first time and realize it didn't really have to do any cardio as we know it, you know, and just walk more. I think it's a it's a wonderful thing, right? It's a wonderful way to live. So what about on the What about on the building side, it would seem to me that just by naturally being in a calorie surplus, and building muscle and training, you're, you're kind of naturally in a high energy flux lifestyle, I mean, is there a way you couldn't be in a building phase.

Brandon DaCruz 51:54

So here's the thing, there is a difference, you can technically be from the literature perspective, in a high flux state by just eating more and having your body weight go up. However, you're not getting the actual advantageous benefits that I'm speaking about all being a high flux state. So for instance, if you are in a building these however, you are becoming more sedentary, really, you're just allocating time towards the gym, and towards eating high amounts of food, technically, you are in a high flux state because your body weight is going up. So it's increasing your energy expenditure. Keep in mind that one of the the largest amounts, you know, if we look at our total daily energy expenditure, 50 to 60% of the calories you burn per day comes from our BMR, which is mostly tied to our amount of fat free mass and our total body mass in general. So for instance, feel if you're to gain 20 pounds, it's going to you know, increase your BMR, whether it's fat, or it's muscle, and so within that you're burning more calories, and you're technically eating more calories. So technically looked at it, and we're really technical about it, you're in a high flux state, but you're not in a high flux state that could apply to people that are overweight, actually. So actually, in the literature, they have sections where they look at obesity as a seed of high energy flux, but it's a negative adaptation of high energy flux, because your body is burning more, just due to the fact that you have more fat free mass and fat mass. And you're eating more, however, you're suffering from insulin resistance, metabolic syndrome, and all the deleterious effects of, you know, being, you know, over fat essentially. And so we want to make sure that we're coupling activity with the increase in calorie intake, as well as with the, you know, progressions, were making our training. So I would keep someone in a higher energy flux state and make sure that their step count is I don't want to say massively elevated, but is that a state at least at 500 steps or more per day, just due to the fact that we see better insulin sensitivity, we see better blood glucose clearance, we see better triglyceride clearance in resistance are in challenge tests, when someone is at 8500 steps per day or more as compared to 5000 steps and 2500 steps. And they've done, you know, exercise resistance studies where they've looked independently at those who have lower step counts, and they do exercise, but they don't get the metabolic benefits. So here's the thing. And this is a massive thing for those that are resistant training, especially to building things because, you know, I remember this philosophy where I came up in the board's early on in the 2000s. And a lot of the guys in the powerlifting, gym Wendler and guys like that, what they would say is, don't walk, if you could sit, don't stand, if you could lay like this, this philosophy, like do less essentially. And that's great for not expending a lot of calories and massively increasing your body weight, but a lot of deleterious effects come with that, you know, increase, increase in insulin resistance increases in fatness, you know, you know, triglyceride levels being off, you know, higher cholesterol, all these you know, higher blood pressure, all these deleterious effects. And we want not only a lean physique that looks well, we want it to, to function well and internally look healthy. And so within that, I would make sure that someone is at least staying active going for postnatal walks, I'm monitoring their blood glucose as well. So I'm looking at their indices of insulin sensitivity and that everything is going in a progressive fashion and within there's going to be periods of time that you're in a progressive building freeze for an extended period of time. And those markers get out of line, even if you're doing steps and that's where we pull back and we use a phasic approach, utilizing the principles of nutritional periodization to utilize something like a mini So I'm big fan of about a four to one paradigm. So four times the amount of time building. So say for instance, I'll give you a perfect example, if I had a client and we went through an eight month building phase, and now they're starting to see some of the detriments because we can't push just with like, with all things in life, you can't push in one direction too much before facing some consequences of that, or pacing, some pushback from the system. Because there's a price at play in everything and physiology for every give me there's a gotcha. So you keep pushing on the building phase, you keep pushing in a surplus, you're starting to amount and accumulate more body fat, you're starting to see decrements in your insulin sensitivity, your blood glucose is starting to rise, you're starting to see your appetite regulation be diminished. So now you're, you're constantly full, you're having digestive issues, you know, you just really don't have the desire to, you know, eat first and foremost, but also you're seeing decreases in your training performance, because you're constantly lethargic, that's when we need a pullback, and we utilize something like a mini cut or cleanup phase. And we would utilize something like an aggressive deficit for a short and truncated period of time to alleviate a lot of those symptoms to drop off some body fat to increase insulin sensitivity to, you know, regulate your appetite again, so you actually have some hunger. And so it's this push and pull as all systems in life. And even within the concept of energy flux, it's not that you're in a high high flux approach all the time, or that your steps are constantly, you know, if I have a client and you know, during their fat loss phase, they're at 10,000, that doesn't mean during their building phase, it goes to 12,000, their next phase, it goes to 50,000. There's titration in and out of the system. So based on their goal, there's a lot of times for instance, um, you know, one of my clients, he has a very successful podcast himself, Jeremiah, they're called the Living lean podcast. And, you know, recently, I had him at a certain step count during his fat loss phase, I had lowered it during his reverse dieting phase, where his recovery dieting phase, and then we were in a building phase, and I had kept it constant, because we were really seeing a lot of progress. His he was maintaining a great body composition, insulin sensitivity was in a great place. And he was someone that suffered from Dawn phenomenon. So he has elevated fasting butcher in the morning. So I want to keep that in place. However, we've gotten to a stage where he's eating so many calories per day. I mean, his training days is over 4200 calories per day, and we're really pushing things. And he's seeing a stall in body weight. And it was because he ended up, you know, he admitted this later, but he was doing a little bit more steps than I had programmed for him. So yeah, so he was he was essentially expending too much energy. And that's where that's a tool. And we have to realize everything within coaching, whether it's energy flux, nutritional periodization, its macros, anything that we utilize our tools, and we have to utilize the right tool at the right time. And that doesn't mean that's another another misconception. energy flux isn't always about titrating up, or it's not about hitting a specific amount, it's about taking someone where they're at. And especially if their goal is to lose fat, or get lean and stay lean. It's about titrating up from where you are now, and incrementally increasing calories and steps, you know, in a manner that we're seeing positive indices or positive improvements in your biofeedback, your body composition, how you feel, how you look how you perform, however, there's going to be negative drawbacks. So I've had people, you know, contact me that they're like, Hey, man, I'm doing 30,000 steps per day, you know, do you think I should go up? And I'm like, you know, I need some context. First and foremost, however, you know, it seems like you're doing an awful amount of activity. And they're, you know, and they're in a situation where they're not gaining any muscle or they don't know their performances or any see detriments. And that's where I'm like, listen, it's not always yes, I see that the the statement, eat more and do more, however, it's relative. It's relative, where you're at what your goals are, and what your body's responses. And what you have to realize is, there can be such a thing as too much of a good thing. Sure.

Philip Pape 58:26

Awesome, man. Okay, this is great listeners are gonna love this. We talked about a lot. I know you have a hard stop and like three minutes. So the You said you'd be willing to come on again, because I have about a million other questions. And normally, I would ask this question. I don't want your answer today. But the listener is expected and it was what one question Did you wish I had asked, and what is your answer? Well, we're gonna hold that so that the next time you come up, you can be prepared. We'll ask that at the end after we get to the rest of our questions. So where can listeners learn more about your in?

Brandon DaCruz 58:53

Absolutely my man. Well, listen, guys, I am always available. This is something education is a big component of who I am as a person, I really believe in empowering others through education. So first and foremost, you guys can all find me on Instagram at Brandon Tucker's underscore, I've not missed a post since 2017. So that was a vow or a promise I made myself I would get back into the community. So every single day, you're gonna see an educational post. Another thing you guys can all contact me on email, which is betta Chris fitness@gmail.com. And the third thing is I host a podcast. So this is something I actually didn't mention in my intro, unfortunately, but I host a podcast I was on. Phil mentioned, I've been on like 200 podcasts. But finally last year, a close friend of mine convinced me to do a podcast of her own so it's called the chasing clarity, health and fitness podcast. And it's done with a very good friend of mine and fellow gym owner and coach himself Jeff black, and I would love you guys to check it out. I'm sure that we have a very similar, you know, audio your audience or listenership. And so I would love to be able to educate you guys in that capacity as well.

Philip Pape 59:48

No doubt and I'm a listener myself so guys, I'll put the IG and email and chasing clarity podcast and since you are listening to a podcast, very easy to just go find it and follow it right now. Brandon, man, thanks so much. It's been a pleasure. are truly an honor to have you on the show.

Brandon DaCruz 1:00:02

Of course my man looking forward to round two already. Likewise,

Philip Pape 1:00:06

if you've been inspired by today's interview, and are ready to take action and build momentum on your health and fitness journey, just schedule a free 30 minute nutrition momentum call with me using the link in my show notes. I promised not to sell or pitch you on anything, but I will help you gain some perspective and guidance so we can get you on the right track toward looking and feeling your best

Philip Pape 3/31/23 Philip Pape 3/31/23

Ep 57: The Power of the Mind and Love with Terry Tucker

Today's episode features my conversation with author and motivational speaker Terry Tucker. We talk about his life's purpose and his 10-year battle with a rare form of cancer that resulted in the amputation of his foot (2018) and then his leg (2020). We also discuss at length his phenomenal book "Sustainable Excellence." He shares his favorite principles from his book and reveals which one he believes to be the most important among the ten. Overall, it is a must-listen, powerful interview with a leading authority on the subjects of motivation, mindset, and personal growth, and one that you should not miss!

Terry Tucker is a motivational speaker, author, and international podcast guest on the topics of motivation, mindset, and self-development.

He has a business administration degree from The Citadel (where he played NCAA Division I college basketball) and a master’s degree from Boston University. In his professional career, Terry has been a marketing executive, a hospital administrator, a SWAT Team Hostage Negotiator, a high school basketball coach, and a business owner.

Terry is the author of the book, Sustainable Excellence, Ten Principles To Leading Your Uncommon and Extraordinary Life, and the developer of the Sustainable Excellence Membership.

__________
👩‍💻 Schedule your FREE 30-minute Nutrition Momentum Call with Philip here.
__________

Today you’ll learn all about:

[3:03] What Terry learned in his battle with cancer
[6:31] Terry's 4 truths
[9:30] Why you should be careful how you talk to yourself
[11:55] The meaning of the saying "Mental is to physical, as 4 is to 1."
[13:15] What it is like being a SWAT hostage negotiator
[18:06] How to deal with setbacks
[23:00] What Terry's book called 'Sustainable Excellence' is all about
[25:40] Terry's favorite chapter in his book
[27:43] The importance of love in everything we do
[29:46] How everything starts with controlling your mind
[34:30] Going out there to find your reason or purpose in life

Episode resources:

The Motivational Check blog: https://www.motivationalcheck.com/
Grab a copy of Terry's book "Sustainable Excellence, Ten Principles to Leading Your Uncommon and Extraordinary Life" here:
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B08GLGVTVS

👩‍💻 Schedule your FREE 30-minute Nutrition Momentum Call with Philip here.

💪 Need help optimizing your body composition? Check out Wits & Weights individualized, one-on-one nutrition coaching:
https://witsandweights.com/coaching

👉 If you want to learn more about lifting and nutrition, reach out to Philip:

IG: https://www.instagram.com/witsandweights/
Email: philip@witsandweights.com

🥩 Free Ultimate Macros Guide and 50 High-Protein Recipes:
https://witsandweights.com

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Transcript

Terry Tucker 00:00

If there's something in your heart, something in your soul that you believe you're supposed to do, but it scares you, go ahead and do it. Because at the end of your life, the things you're going to regret are not going to be the things you did. They're going to be the things you didn't do. And by then it's going to be too late to go back and duel.

Philip Pape 00:22

Philip Pape 00:48

Welcome to another episode of Wits & Weights. Joining me on the show today is Terry Tucker, a motivational speaker, author and international podcast guest on the topics of motivation, mindset and self development. He has a business administration degree from the Citadel, where he played NCAA division one college basketball, and a master's degree from Boston University. In his professional career, Terry has been a marketing executive, a hospital administrator, a SWAT team hostage negotiator, a high school basketball coach, a business owner, a motivational speaker, and for the past 10 years, a cancer warrior, which resulted in the amputation of his foot in 2018. And his leg in 2020. Terry is the author of the book, sustainable excellence 10 principles to leading your uncommon and extraordinary life and the developer of the Sustainable excellence membership. Terry, I'm very honored to have you on the show.

Terry Tucker 01:42

Well, Phillip, thanks for having me. I'm looking forward to talking with you today.

Philip Pape 01:46

Yeah, likewise, let's just start at the top. I mean, who is Terry Tucker, what is what is your purpose in life?

Terry Tucker 01:52

I think my purpose has really kind of evolved or changed over time. I think when I was when I was younger, I it was basketball. You know, I drank slept basketball. And then after I graduated from college, I felt my purpose it took me a while to get there was to be in law enforcement. And you mentioned I was the SWAT team, hostage negotiator. And now is in all honesty, I'm probably coming towards the end of my life, I think my purpose is to put as much goodness as much positivity, as much motivation, as much love back into the world as I possibly can with whatever time I have left. So my purpose I think has evolved over time. And I think I've been fortunate to recognize that, okay, things are changing now. And I need to change as well.

Philip Pape 02:39

Okay, and you've definitely I imagined change, because of so many of these experiences, we had not only the different phases of your career, but this battle of cancer that you went through, and I was actually going through your website again, just to get familiar with the whole story. And it's quite the story. You know, over 10 years, that rare form of cancer, you have your foot and then leg amputated. I can't even imagine that let alone just the time and all the all the pain you went through. Tell us about that experience and what what you ultimately learned from it.

Terry Tucker 03:07

Yeah, so I mean, when this occurred, it was back in 2012. I was a girls high school basketball coach in Texas and I had a callus break open on the bottom of my foot right below my third toe. And initially I didn't think much of it because as a coach, you're on your feet a lot. But after a few weeks of it nonhealing out I made an appointment and went to see a podiatrist, a foot doctor friend of mine, and he took an x ray. He said, Tara, thank you have a cyst in there and I can cut it out. And he did. And he showed it to me just so gelatin sack with some white fat in it. No dark spots, no blood, nothing that gave either one of us concern. But fortunately or unfortunately, he sent it off to pathology to have it examined. And then two weeks later, I received a call from him. And as I mentioned, he was a friend of mine. And the more difficulty he was having explaining to me what was going on, the more frightened I was becoming and to finally just laid it out for me. So Tara been a doctor for 25 years, I've never seen this form of cancer, you have an incredibly rare form of melanoma. And most of us think of melanoma is too much exposure to the sun and affects the melanin, the pigment in our skin. But this has absolutely nothing to do with that there's a rare form that I have that appears on the bottom of the feet, or the palms of the hands. And as a result he recommended I go to MD Anderson Cancer Center in Houston and be treated. And so I did so I had you know, the tumor excised on the bottom, my foot all the lymph nodes removed, and then my doctor because at the time melanoma was a death sentence. I mean, it was like we don't really have anything to treat it. So she put me on a weekly injection of a drug called interferon to kind of kick the can down the road. The side effects of the interferon were that I had severe flu like symptoms for two to three days every week after each injection, and I took those injections for almost five years.

Terry Tucker 05:00

Just imagine having the flu every week for five years. And I'll tell you, there was a point in time where I was, I was so sick of being sick, that I literally prayed to die, I have a very strong faith. And so it was like, Look, God, this is, I think there's a difference between living and not dying. And I was kind of in that not dying mode. It's like, I'm not really living, I'm just trying to make it to the next day to survive. And so I, I just prayed to die. But obviously, I didn't die. But I think God gave me the strength to get through those five years. And as you already said, you know, that got me to having my leg amputated, having my foot amputated and things like that. And I'll tell you how to nurse recently asked me, you know, what was it like to lose your leg and 18 and or your foot and 18, and then your leg again in 2020. And I told her, I said, it certainly has not been easy. I'm still learning how to walk again with a prosthetic. But what I told her was is that cancer can take all my physical faculties, but cancer can't touch my mind. It can't touch my heart, and it can't touch my soul. And that's who I am. That's your Philip. That's where everybody who's listening to us is. So you know, we spend a lot of time working on our bodies, you know, I was an athlete my whole life going to the gym, you'll get better get stronger. But do we spend as much time working on who we really are not our heart, our mind and our soul? Maybe there needs to be a better balance, I think, between those things in our lives. And would you say that that that moment was the crucible moment, because it sounds like you've had so many, so many experiences that could have been the catalyst for eventually writing your book and trying to make this impact and put out goodness in the world. So, you know, somebody's listening, and they want to find their, what you call uncommon and extraordinary purpose. You know, of course, not everybody wants to have to go through an experience like that to get there. So, you know, just tell me a little bit more about that. Yeah, I learned a lot of things through the through this episode, I've learned that you know, I don't really think you know, yourself until you've been tested by some form of adversity in life. I think cancer has made me a better human being in a lot of ways. It's gotten me to a point where I've learned what I call my four truths. And I call them my truths, but they're not mine. I don't own them. I don't I don't think you can own a truth. And I'll and I'll give them to you, because I call them sort of the bedrock of my soul, they're just a good place, I think to build a quality life off of. And before I guess I give you the truth, let me say this, I mean, you're looking at me right now there's no s on my chest, I don't have a cake and fly around with magical powers I, I have tough days I have that I'm still being treated for the tumors in my lungs. So there are days that get down, there are days I get depressed. So I don't purport to have all the answers. Like if you do this, you know, this is going to be your outcome. But what I do offer is, this is my story. And this is what I've learned. And if these things work for you, then by all means, take them and incorporate them in your life, maybe one or two of them works for you. Take those and incorporate those in your life and develop your own truths around those. So first truth, control your mind or your mind is going to control you. The second truth, embrace the pain and the difficulty that we all experience in life. And it doesn't have to be cancer, or even any kind of an illness, and use that pain and difficulty to make you a stronger and more resilient individual. The third one, I look at more as a legacy type of truth. And it's this, what you leave behind is what you weave in the hearts of other people. And then the fourth one, I think is pretty self explanatory. As long as you don't quit, you can never be defeated. So I like I said, I use those truths as kind of a bedrock of my soul. And they're just a good place that, you know, do I want to take chemotherapy? Do I want to do this drug? Do I want to get involved in this project? Do these truths along with my faith? This helped me to decide whether there's something I want to do.

Philip Pape 09:10

I love that, Terry, so that the second truth stuck out of me, repeated again has to do with a strong mind, right?

Terry Tucker 09:17

Yeah. Embrace the pain and the difficulty that we all experienced in life and use that pain and difficulty to make you a stronger and more resilient individual.

Philip Pape 09:28

Right. Just listening to another podcast this morning. It was just about strength training and very casual podcast and he said, you know, a strong body is a strong mind, which gives you strong thoughts. And it always reminds me you know, these things that are difficult in the short term, but you embrace them and they end up making you a better person. Right. And that's how we change. Yeah,

Terry Tucker 09:49

it is and I think you know, I go back to the control your mind part and I, I always tell people, be very, very careful how you talk Talk To Yourself, we all have self talk, you know, we all, we all talk to ourselves whether we want want to admit it or not, we just start answering yourself that you kind of have problems. But you know, we all have this this self talk. And, you know, I'll just give you an example from my basketball days, the same part of your brain lights up, when you're practicing free throws, actually taking a ball and shooting free throws, the same part of your brain lights up when you think about shooting free throws. So whether you're physically doing it, or whether you're thinking about doing it, you're making those connections, you're making those synapses connect in your brain. And so you know, if you sit there and tell yourself, you know, I'm a lousy free throw shooter, or you know, I'm terrible at algebra, or I'm never going to start my business, if you keep saying that to yourself, eventually, you're going to get to the point where, yeah, you're not going to be good at shooting free throws, or you're not going to be good at algebra, and you're not going to be able to start your business, because you've hardwired your brain to believe that. So be very careful, be very, I don't know, gentle, tender, whatever you want to call it with yourself. I mean, you're gonna be tough with yourself, but at the same time, make sure the things you're saying are positive things to yourself. Or if there is negative stuff coming in, that you're the kind of person that can use negativity, you know, there are certain people out there, I'm not one of them. You know, Philip, you're terrible at weightlifting, and you're never going to be any good. And some people can take that and internalize it and use it as motivation or fuel or something to. Like I said, I'm not one of those people. But there are those people out there. So you know, be very careful how you talk to yourself, because it all starts with your mind. We all become what we think. And when I was growing up, you know, in Chicago playing basketball, Bobby Knight was the basketball coach at Indiana

Philip Pape 11:49

University and chairs around Yeah,

Terry Tucker 11:53

exactly the same guy. Well, there was a guy I played basketball with in high school that played for a night, Isaiah Thomas, who won a national championship with him, and then went on to play for the Detroit Pistons and won a couple NBA championships. And so Isaiah and I would see each other in the summer, when we would come back to Chicago, you know, I'd be like, you know, what's night like and stuff like that. He said, he's a great guy loves his players. But he has to say that it's very simple saying you said mental is to physical as for is to one. So here's this great coach, teaching elite athletes to use their bodies to be great on the basketball court. But what it was really saying what that quote is that your mind, or your mind set is four times more important than anything your physical body's going to do.

Philip Pape 12:38

Yeah, that's a great message. And a lot of folks listening to this podcast, they're interested in health and nutrition. And a lot of this comes down to consistency, and accountability. And we'll talk about for example, going in and doing your squats, right. And the idea that you may have had a terrible day, the night before, you may have not had too much sleep, you go to the gym and you don't feel well, your warmup doesn't feel good, you get to that first set. And it's like, you can either you can either give up or you can say, well, I don't feel good, but I'm gonna do it. And inevitably you do. And there's there's that mindset thing where it's like 6070 80% of it is all in your mind. So I really love that. You know, I have to ask, you mentioned so you mentioned basketball, but you also in your past, were a SWAT team hostage negotiator. Now we're recording this around the holidays. So the movie diehard melee comes to mind. It's not going to come out to a little bit later than that. But I want to I want to understand what that experience is like, I'm sure you get this question all the time. And how that but also what it taught you about the human mind. And I realize there's a manipulative aspect to it, I guess is one way to put it. But there's both sides of the equation that I imagined teaches you about the human psyche.

Terry Tucker 13:45

Yeah, there is I heard Bruce Willis say one time yet Die Hard is not a Christmas movie. You know what he was very. But But you're right. I mean, it kind of is we're always watching to Christmas and things like that. Yeah, being a hostage negotiator. For those who don't understand Swat. SWAT is usually divided up into two groups one or the, or the tactical officers. Those are the ones with all the toys in the guns in the you know, battering rams, and all that kind of stuff. And then there's the negotiators, and if the negotiators do their job, then the tactical guys don't get to use all their toys. So sometimes they're not happy with this. But it's it was it was absolutely a big learning curve for me. Because if you think of what a police officer does, 99.9% of what we did was usually face to face with another human being whether we're stopping you to give you a ticket because you ran a red light or we're answering a radio run for a fight. It's face to face and you can take those visual clues. So you know if I'm talking to you and you're like, you know, kind of looking around, maybe you're getting ready to run or you know, if you're standing there and you're balling up your fist, maybe you want to fight me so I can See that and I can do what's appropriate, I can handcuff you, I can sit you down and put you in my car, whatever is appropriate for why I'm there. But as negotiators, we were not with the person we were negotiating with, this wasn't a face to face kind of thing. This was many times, we're blocks away talking on a phone, or we're behind, you know, a locked door, they barricaded themselves. And so we have to figure things out based on what people are saying what they're not saying, and how they're saying it. And the overarching part of negotiation is trust. We're trying to build a relationship just like a parent, or a child, or a husband and wife, or a Boston subordinate. You're trying to build to build trust. And sometimes that takes hours. And there were many times where I'm negotiating with somebody where we're over here talking about something when the real issue is over here, but they don't trust me enough yet to want to talk about why we're actually there at four o'clock in the morning to deal with this situation. So trust was a big thing. Listening was a big thing. And people are well, of course, we listen all the time. It's like, No, we're not talking about listening to respond. We're talking about listening to understand. And I even put a chapter in my book about the importance of listening and listening to understand, you know, maybe one of these things where, you know, Phillip say what you're gonna say, because I want to get my two cents in, that's listening to respond versus Okay, Philip, I understand are I hear what you're saying? I may agree with it may not agree with it. But help me understand where you're coming from. And the other thing you mentioned the word manipulative, we didn't really like to say that. But you're absolutely right. We would ask people, How and what questions. And what that did was, engage them to develop or help us to develop solutions to get them out. We tried to stay away from why questions because why sounds kind of accusatory, but why did you do that? Or why are we here? Wait a minute, maybe he's kind of getting in my grill, so to speak. So we would ask how and what, how do you see this getting resolved. Now all of a sudden, now they're engaged with us to try to get them out safely. And I'll end with this, about 80% of the time, maybe even 90%, we were pretty good. In Cincinnati, where I was a negotiator, we would get the personnel safely, whether it was a barricaded person, or whether there was a hostage, but about 10% of the time that the person who was barricaded, decided that you know what, no, because I know when I come out, I'm going back to prison, and I'm not going back to prison, or, you know, I know, I'm gonna get tried and get convicted of that homicide. So I'm not going to I don't want to go to prison. And they would choose to end their life. And again, and I don't mean to sound callous about this. But I never lost any sleep over that for a couple reasons. One, I had great training, I worked with great people. And I worked very hard to try to get that person out safely. But the bottom line is, at the end of the day, if you're barricaded with a gun, it's going to be your decision on how this situation ends.

Philip Pape 18:04

I hear you're saying, Terry, this is this is serious stuff. Okay. Yeah, I was just curious about about that. And the listening actually, that really speaks to me, because that is something I've had to work on for years. And I think doing things like podcasts forces me to try to develop that skill here and hear what you're saying. Maybe to get back to a slightly lighter topic. Sure. Yeah, I opened up the door because I couldn't help it. I had a curiosity. And it is my shows I get to do that. But so how do we how do we deal with setbacks? I guess? Well, you know, going back to the things that cause us to struggle and have adversity that then causes us to change, especially when the setbacks are out of our control, which many are right. Is this a matter of perspective of personal responsibility and not making the excuses despite the fact that wasn't in our control? What's your take on that?

Terry Tucker 19:00

Yeah, I mean, you know, I've got this blog called motivational check. And so you know, everybody thinks it's about motivation. And I think motivation is, is part of it. Motivation, to me is kind of like lighting the fuse, you know, somebody lit the fuse. But if you don't have discipline, and you don't have good habits, you can have all the motivation in the world, you're never going to get ahead. And just like, I kind of look at it as like a three legged stool, if any one of those things you don't have, you have motivation, you have great habits, but you have no discipline to implement those habits. Or you have motivation, you know, you have discipline, but your habits are terrible. And if you don't have all three of those ingredients, there's actually no way you're going to get to be successful unless you just happen to lock into something that that happens to you. So it's more than just you know, rah, rah, you know, I want to get to the gym today and I want to do that. You have to have the motivation. You have to have the discipline, and then you have to have those good habits. And if you had those, absolutely, you're going to have setbacks in your life. I mean, we're human beings, we're going to have bad days, we're going to have, as you described earlier, you know, we get up and I really don't want to go to the gym today. And it's not something like that, I think back to I have a friend of mine who's who's a navy former Navy SEAL. And during my off weeks of treatment, he calls me in and he just checks up on me. And one of the things we talked about from time to time, is what the seals call their 40% rule, which basically says that if, if you're done, if you're at the end of your rope, if you can't go on, according to the seals, you're only at 40% of your maximum. And you still have, you know, another 60%, left in reserve to give to yourself, and I've always believed, not always, certainly within the last 10 years, I've come to believe that, yes, we all have a breaking point. But that breaking point is so much further down the road than we ever give ourselves credit for. I know, I found that with my cancer journey where it's like, I just don't think I can keep going. I just don't think I can go on. But somehow I found a way to do that. And I think the same thing can be applied. You know, when you're having those bad days, when you're having those setbacks. Just keep trying to put one foot in front of the other. And eventually you'll you'll get out of that ugliness and start moving forward.

Philip Pape 21:21

Yeah, that's I've heard, I've heard that to the 40%. I've even heard it more extreme by it was, again, a Navy SEAL something like the 9010 rule that most I think what it was, is that most average people put in 10% of what they are capable of. And what you're saying is a Navy Seal is gonna go push all the way and he's still only 40%. So that's just, that's how much capacity we have.

Terry Tucker 21:45

Yeah, we all think, oh, it's Navy SEALs, I could never do that. Well. Trust me. I'm the biggest wimp in the world if I can figure out a way to kind of push through that. I think we all have that in us. And like I said, you know, yeah, I think there's a breaking point. But that breaking point is so much further down the road than you ever give yourself credit for.

Philip Pape 22:03

Yeah. And it's all relative to our to our own capabilities. There's something else about the Navy SEALs just comes to mind. Have you heard about the how they how they perceive stress. So most of us when we when we see stress, it's a negative. And, and for them when they perceive stress, it's a motivating factor. And they actually did a study that showed they think completely different from almost every other person in that regard. Just Just throwing that out there in case you hadn't heard of that. No,

Terry Tucker 22:28

I hadn't heard that. So I got a phone call with my friend next week. So that's yes.

Philip Pape 22:34

I think they I think it was on freakanomics, or planet money or one of those other podcasts recently. Hey, this is Philip. And I hope you're enjoying this episode of Wits & Weights. If you're finding value in the content and want to stay up to date with all our latest episodes, be sure to hit the Follow button on your favorite podcast platform. By following you'll get notified whenever a new episode comes out. And you won't miss out on knowledge and strategies to level up your health and fitness. All right, let's get back to the episode. So I want listeners to know about your book, which is titled sustainable excellence. And according to this description, it answers the three basic questions that will lead you to your best life. What is excellence? How do you achieve it? And how do you sustain it? Do you mind if I read a short excerpt from the introduction go right ahead. Because Because this stuck out to me is just one tiny slice, actually Oh my God, here we goes the 40% rule. Now this is serendipity. If I so I put these questions together maybe two months ago. And I'll just get back to it. Now this is this is okay. You can't write it any better. Here we go. I remember reading an article about the owner professional sports who paid a Navy SEAL to come and live with his family for a month and teach them to use their minds to do more than their bodies ever thought they could. Part of their training was the 40% rule. You know, I'm just gonna leave it right there. Because you just said it. In your own words. I got the guy who wrote the book who just said it. Let's just get to the question. Tell us about the book and why somebody would want to pick this up. Yes, yeah. So

Terry Tucker 23:59

sustainable excellence was really a book that was born out of two conversations that I had. One was with a former player that I coached in high school, who had moved to the area in Colorado where my wife and I live with her fiance. And the four of us had had dinner one night, I remember saying to her after dinner, you know, I'm really excited that you're living close, and I can watch you find and live your purpose. She got real quiet for a while. And then she looked at me and she said, Well, Coach, what do you think my purpose is? I said, I have absolutely no idea what your purpose is. But that's what your life should be about finding the reason you were put on the face of this earth, using your unique gifts and talents and living that reason. So that was one conversation. And then a young man in college reached out to me on social media and he said, you know, what do you think are the most important things I need to learn to not just be successful in my job or in business, but to be successful in life? And I didn't want to give them the you know, get up early, work hard, help others. Not that those aren't important. Those are incredibly important. But I wanted to see if I could go deeper with him. And so I sort of stepped back took some time was writing some notes eventually had these, you know, sort of 10 thoughts, these 10 ideas, these 10 principles. And so I sent them to him. And then I kind of stepped back and I was like, Well, I've got a life story that fits underneath that principle, or I know somebody whose life emulates this principle. So literally, during the three or four month period where I was healing after I had my leg amputated, I sat down at the computer every day, and I built stories, and they're real stories about real people underneath each of the principles. And that's how sustainable excellence came to be.

Philip Pape 25:39

Yeah, storytelling is a great way to learn. what's your what's your favorite principle? And I'm not going to let you choose number nine, because that one is listen more than you talk, which we already covered in the Swat. Story, yeah,

Terry Tucker 25:55

the one that resonates with me, and it's always fun for me as as the author because the each principle is a chapter. And when somebody reaches out to me, there's always one chapter that resonates specifically with them. And this is the one I can't remember if it's two or three in the book, but the chapter is entitled this, most people think with their fears and their insecurities instead of using their minds. And I know I've done that probably many times in my life where, you know, I want to do this, oh, wait a minute, you know, maybe I'm not smart enough. Maybe I don't have enough information or knowledge. What do people think about me if I fail, that's thinking with our fears, and our insecurities, that's not thinking with our minds. And I always tell especially when I speak to young people in groups, I always tell them, if there's something in your heart, something in your soul that you believe you're supposed to do, but it scares you. Go ahead and do it. Because at the end of your life, the things you're going to regret are not going to be the things you did, they're going to be the things you didn't do. And by then it's going to be too late to go back and duel.

Philip Pape 27:00

Do the thing you're most scared to do. That is great advice. I mean, you can you can take that to the microcosm. Also, it doesn't have to be some massive, passionate undertaking in your career could be, you know, you're afraid to go give that presentation or do this podcast or try this new program or talk to this person and so many things, I could see that applying the thing you're most afraid of is the thing you should be doing. Right? Embrace lack of uncomfortability. Yeah. Cool. And you said two and three, are they? Did you want to cover the other one, you said to chapter two was

Terry Tucker 27:37

two or three. I mean, that's, that's definitely, you know, the one that resonates with me. And you know, I say they're not in any particular order. And they're not more important than the other. But I think in all honesty, probably the last one is the most important I was when I was growing up. John Wooden was the basketball coach at UCLA. And I was a huge wooden fan. And I remember one day he was being interviewed by a reporter. And I was sitting there literally, you know, I'm probably 1213 years old, with a pad of paper and a pencil and I'm looking for some good X's and O's to be a better basketball player. And the reporter asked him, what do you what do you want your players to learn most? As you coach them in this game? It like I said, I'm ready for some, you know, I'm ready to write stuff down. And he said, The most important thing to me is the word love. And as a kid, I'm like, no, no, no, no, I want some good X's and O's don't give me what love. Are you kidding me? He said, No, I want people I want my players to understand the importance of loving what they do, loving themselves, loving their teammates, loving their Creator. He said, everything we do in life comes down to love to love what we do. And I didn't get that as a kid. You know, it didn't resonate with me. But today it does, you know, how we treat people, how we treat ourselves, you know, the important things, our values in our life having a value driven belief system. The bottom line is for all of us, I think, you know, if you love being a great podcast host if I love being a great podcast, yes, it still comes down to love. And I really do think that's probably the most important trait or principle that I put in the book.

Philip Pape 29:21

Love is all you need. That song is going through my head right? Now, yeah, that's so true. Because it's, you know, we talk about maybe the opposite of that of eliminating things that don't, that aren't part of love or that don't serve you or that are toxic or that try to tear you down and embracing these things and the abundance mentality so absolutely love that. Speaking of love, I use the word love a lot. So there we go. So if you had to pick one thing that you would just universally write universally right now on the spot, recommend to someone that they need to start doing right now today, you know, don't let life pass on by what would it be?

Terry Tucker 29:59

I I think it would go back to the first of the four truths, control your mind, everything starts with that, if you can't control your mind, you know, you're going to become what you think. And if you're thinking a bunch of negative things, you know, think about things you can't do, then you're going to become that negative type of person are not able to do that things. So I would say, you've got to start with being able to control your mind, if you can do that everything from their outcome is like the ripple effect effect of throwing a stone into a pond. If you can control your mind, you can absolutely do whatever you you want to do in life.

Philip Pape 30:35

Now, because that's one thing you absolutely have control over, right? It's only more even more than your actions in body if, if you were completely imprisoned and trapped physically, you still have control over your mind.

Terry Tucker 30:46

Well, there's there's an interesting, there's a great book, and I'd recommend it. It's it's called do hard things by Steve Magnus. And Steve Magnus was a former track and field coach at the University of Minnesota, he was also a very elite runner early in his life. And he cites a study in that where this person put people into a room and the only thing in the room was a table and a chair, they were not allowed to have their devices, there were no windows, there were no anything and he wanted people to stay in there for 15 minutes. The only other thing in the room was a buzzer on the table. And if you press the buzzer, you got an electric shock. So you had a chance to just stay there be alone with yourself for 15 minutes, or to press the buzzer. 67% of the men press the buzzer, including one man who pressed the buzzer every five seconds and 25% of the women press the buzzer as well. Was it difficult to standardize, you've got to be comfortable with you. You've got to be comfortable being alone with who you are and your thoughts and things like that. And you may need to change your goals, you know, 75% of the people who die trying to scale Mount Everest die on the way down, not on the way up. So you know, their goal is so consuming that I've got to do this. But the understanding is my body can't handle if I do this, why don't I you know, is it really going to matter whether I climb that mountain or not? If the end result is I'm going to die? Let me think about that 75% of people die on the way down after reaching their goal. Right. You know, it's something to think about in terms of controlling your mind.

Philip Pape 32:24

Yeah, in terms of perspective, that's great. All right, Terry. So I do like to ask this of all guests, and that is what one question Did you wish I had asked, and what is your answer?

Terry Tucker 32:37

Boy, I guess you know, people always ask me, Do you have one piece of advice? And I if I could, I know I've kind of shot my mouth off a lot with you. Let me end this with a story. If I may always been a big fan of Westerns growing up. You know, when I was young, my mom and dad used to let me stay up and watch Gunsmoke and Bonanza My favorite was always Wild Wild West 1993 The movie Tombstone came out you've probably seen it huge blockbuster started Val Kilmer as a man by the name of John Doc Holliday and Kurt Russell's a man by the name of Wyatt Earp. Now Doc Holliday and Wyatt Earp are two living breathing human beings who walked on the face of the earth are not just made up characters for the movie, and Doc was called doc because he was a dentist by trade. But pretty much Doc Holliday was a gunslinger and a card shark and why on earth had been some form of a law man his entire adult life. And somehow these two men from entirely opposite backgrounds come together and form this very close friendship. And at the end of the movie, Doc Holliday is dying of tuberculosis at a sanitarium in Glenwood Springs, Colorado, which is about three hours from where I live. The real Doc Holliday died at that sanitarium, and he's buried in the Glenwood Springs cemetery. And why it at this point in his life is destitute is no money is no job is no prospects for a job. So every day comes to play cards with Doc and the two men pass the time that way. And in this almost last scene in the movie, they're talking about what they want out of life. And Doc says, you know, when I was younger, I was in love with my cousin, but she joined a convent over the affair, which is all that I ever wanted. And then he looks at why this is what about you why What do you want? And why kind of nonchalantly says I just want to lead a normal life. And Doc looks at him and says there's no normal, there's just life and get on with living years. Philip, you and I probably know people, there's probably people out there listening to us. They're like, sitting back well, when this happens, I'll have a normal life. Or when this occurs, I have a successful life. Or when this arises, I'll have a significant life. What I'd really like to leave your listeners with is this Don't wait. Don't wait for life to come to you. Get out there find the reason you were put on the face of this earth. Use your unique gifts and talents and live that reason. Because if you do at the end your life I'm going to promise you two things. Number one, you're going to be A whole lot happier. And number two, you're gonna have a whole lot more peace in your heart.

Philip Pape 35:06

Get out there and live your life. There's a reason you're a motivational speaker, you gotta you gotta be ready to go. Ready to go. So I hope everybody listening is as well and they're psyched up. Where can everybody learn about you?

Terry Tucker 35:17

So I have a blog called motivational check every day I put up a thought for the day and with that thought, usually comes a question about how maybe you could apply that into your life. On Mondays I put up the Monday morning motivational message of recommendations for books to read videos to watch and things like that. So you can you can also leave me a message leave me a note at motivational check.com

Philip Pape 35:39

Perfect. I will put that in the show notes, motivational check.com can check it out myself. And Terry, I really appreciate it. This is insightful, interesting conversation, your background is fascinating. And all the things you share today I think are gonna really help the listener. So thank you for taking the time to come on the show.

Terry Tucker 35:54

Well, thanks for having me, Philip. I really appreciate it.

Philip Pape 35:58

Philip Pape 3/28/23 Philip Pape 3/28/23

Ep 56: Getting Stronger, Training with Skill, and Debunking Fitness BS with Katie Kollath & Heather Hamilton of Barpath Fitness

In this episode, Katie Kollath and Heather Hamilton of Barpath Fitness reveal the importance of performing lifts in full range-of-motion, the impact of strength training on productivity and confidence, and their coaching experience. They cut through toxic misinformation in the fitness industry, discuss their overall philosophy on nutrition coaching, and explain how the Stronger Than Your Boyfriend podcast has made Katie and Heather better coaches.

Barpath Fitness is an LGBTQ+ and Women Owned online remote coaching business where Katie and Heather help people get stronger, reduce pain, and look and feel better without shortcuts, gimmicks, or quick fixes. They have been trainers for over 15 years and offer personalized remote fitness and nutrition coaching.

They also host the Stronger Than Your Boyfriend podcast, where they dive into important and often controversial topics in their trademark style to help you sift through toxic misinformation in the fitness industry.

Katie and Heather specialize in helping people get out of a restrictive mindset so they can build muscle, move better, and feel more confident. They don’t advocate for endless cardio or restrictive diets, but instead, quality movement, efficient training methods, and slow habit changes over time to improve quality of life.

You’ll learn all about:

Katie and Heather’s fitness journeys and building a remote coaching business
Origins of Barpath Fitness and its unique brand
Heather’s powerlifting experiences and its influence on the brand
Identifying target clients and refining the coaching approach
The relationship between mobility and performance
Importance of performing lifts in full range-of-motion
Skill-based training and resistance training as a skill
The impact of strength training on productivity and confidence
The coaching experience and client journey with Barpath Fitness
Debunking fitness industry BS and toxic misinformation
The Stronger Than Your Boyfriend podcast’s impact on coaching
Nutrition philosophy

Episode resources:

Download the Stronger Than Your Boyfriend podcast
Personalize remote fitness & nutrition coaching - barpathfitness.com
Stronger Than Your Boyfriend FB group
Watch the video here

👉 If you want to learn more about lifting and nutrition, reach out to Philip:

IG: https://www.instagram.com/witsandweights/
Email: philip@witsandweights.com

💪 Need help optimizing your body composition? Check out Wits & Weights individualized, one-on-one nutrition coaching:
https://witsandweights.com/coaching

👩‍💻 Free 30-minute call with Philip:
http://bit.ly/3JAFKSz

🥩 Free Ultimate Macros Guide and 50 High-Protein Recipes:
https://witsandweights.com

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Transcript

Philip Pape 00:08

Philip Pape 00:31

Welcome to another episode of Wits & Weights. I think this is going to be an epic conversation. I can tell you that already. Just from listening to my guests. On their podcast, they throw down the gauntlet, they help us all see the light. When it comes to the fitness industry. They tell it like it is they dish out a ton of extremely valuable information just to help you get better results in the gym and in life. My guest today are Katie Colette and Heather Hamilton of bar path fitness and the Stronger Than Your Boyfriend podcast. Make sure to subscribe everyone please. Bar path fitness is an LGBTQ plus and women own online remote coaching business where Katie and Heather help people get stronger, reduce pain and look and feel better without shortcuts, gimmicks or quick fixes. They've been trainers for over 15 years and offer personalized remote fitness and nutrition coaching. They also host the Stronger Than Your Boyfriend podcast, where they dive into important and often controversial topics in their trademark style that combines science and spunk. Those are my words, not theirs. To help you sift through toxic misinformation in the fitness industry. I love that we should use that

Philip Pape 01:37

alliteration. Thank you got it, though you got it. So Katie and Heather specialize in helping people get out of a restrictive mindset so they can build muscle move better and feel more confident. They don't advocate for endless cardio or restrictive diets. But instead quality movement, efficient training methods and slow habit changes over time to improve quality of life. Katie and Heather after that long but deserved intro. I'm looking forward to this. And I'm super excited to have you on the show.

Katie Kollath 02:03

Yeah, thank you. Well, we're really excited to be here. And now I feel really good. But that super long intro. Yes. Thank you. Competence. So

Philip Pape 02:10

awesome. No good. And I'm going to try to match your energy to I love it. So yeah, yeah, let's get started the top of your story. You've been trainers for over 15 years, not to mention powerlifting Olympic lifting fitness educators. And you've built what looks to be a high impact remote coaching business. So just tell us how you got into fitness and turn that into careers?

Katie Kollath 02:31

Yeah, well, I guess I'll start I think I started as a personal trainer in college. And it wasn't even the route that I was wanting to go. I just kind of fell in love with it. And then I went on to get my master's degree in physiology. And I realized that I didn't really want to work in like the lab setting I was more into the the one on one personal time with people. So once I moved back to Chicago from grad school, I pretty much dove in, you know, head on with in person personal training. And that's how I built my experience as a trainer. And you know, just kind of went from there. And I know how there will we'll probably talk a little bit about, you know, how we got into like building this this business but together, but that's kind of my trajectory. It wasn't like, yeah, I love fitness. And I've always wanted to do this. It was like kind of a quick pivot once I was in college, but yeah, kind of just fell in love with it from college on so yeah, yeah.

Heather Hamilton 03:28

Yeah, my story is, I guess it starts in kind of in high school, I never played sports. I was not a great athlete, as a kid. And I told this whole story on our podcast, I think in the beginning and one of our like, beginning episodes, so I'll keep it short. But basically, I had dropped out of high school when I was about 16. Just got in with the wrong crowd wasn't really doing too well. And then started doing a choir show choir actually, which is like Broadway kind of, and it knows anything about that there's singing and dancing, there's a lot of diaphragmatic breathing, there's movement, there's a lot of things that you have to be like somewhat fit for. So I decided to kind of really lean into that. And that's when I started working out and I ended up going back to school or both getting my GED. Going back to school, getting my bachelor's and my master's in Applied Health Science. From there, I started working at universities. So I was the director of fitness will started as a coordinator worked my way up to Director at five different universities throughout the United States. One of them is where I met Katie Yeah, I was her boss for a very short amount of time. We were not

Katie Kollath 04:31

we were not dating,

Heather Hamilton 04:33

dating. That's how we met. And yeah, after that, I just kind of we we started our brand back in and what was it? 2016 teen? Yeah. And we've also we've always kind of worked together. So we are married now. But we have worked from a university to a gym we work together to starting this business. So yeah,

Katie Kollath 04:52

it's kind of just worked out that way. I wouldn't always recommend working with our spouse or partner or coaching them right. Well as far as like ours strengths and weaknesses and in business. So

Philip Pape 05:03

yeah, you guys definitely seem to click and I can hear that. So it's really cool to hear that story. I mean, you both came from completely different paths, but then you kept going. Yeah, I did want to ask about the brand itself that why did you start bar path fitness specifically, you know, the thing that sparked your desire to make that impact with remote coaching, especially because I know you have all these different backgrounds, and you could have gone different directions. I think you've really impressively fused your personality and your brand as well.

Katie Kollath 05:29

Yeah, well, thank you for that. We. So in 2016, back, when we started it, we initially just started it as a blog, because we were we just wanted to start putting information out there. Because I remember before we were, you know, when we were just friends, we had talked about potentially opening a gym one day, so we kind of always had this idea of going into business together. And we realized, okay, it's a, you know, shit ton of money to start a gym. And there's a lot of startup costs that come come with that. So we were like, Okay, well, what if we just start with with a blog and like, see what goes from there, because we were both working at a big box gym in Chicago at the time. So there was kind of a, you know, a little clause there, you couldn't really go out on your own yet. So we just really started diving into the research research, we wrote blogs on it, and mostly because from what I was seeing, and I was still kind of a green trainer, but I realized some basic principles that help people and what I was seeing from other trainers and clients that I, you know, I was getting in the gym, and what they thought about fitness, it was just so wrong, and so often not what they needed. And I was like, why is this just so prevalent in the fitness industry? Why are they having them do these crazy workouts that aren't getting the results. So we wanted to just we wanted to start somewhere. And we started writing, and it's somewhat of our both of our strong suits. I mean, I started chi edits, and you know, we finish it, but we also wanted to apply like some research to and, you know, we tried to get a little mesh of both, like, you know, applying it to the average person and while incorporating the research. So we started there. So

Heather Hamilton 07:04

I think that's a good point to bring up, too. I think one of the things we noticed when we first built this brand is that there weren't a lot of women in the space, there weren't a lot of LGBTQ plus women in this space. And the women that are in this space, typically, it's almost like they need to be, you know, top of the line, like you've got to either have all of these crazy records or to have your PhD, you have to have apps or apps. Absolutely, yeah, we wanted to show that, you know, you can there's a mixture of, you know, evidence based, you know, training, and then there's, there's experience, and when you combine those two things like, Wow, you really get something great. And we want it to be a couple of women, specifically LGBTQ plus women in the space.

Katie Kollath 07:45

Yeah, yeah, it was, um, it definitely was one of our missions. Because that I mean, that obviously was a big part of it, like I would, I think I was the only female trainer at one point at this big box gym. Yeah. And it was very, it was a rough environment to get started in. Like, I don't think a lot of clients even wanted to train with me at first until I convinced them to in my own way, right, like, you know, producing some results, but not saying I was the best trainer when I started, but it was like I was doing, I don't know, some different, a different style of training, and most of the trainers in there, like I wasn't just doing, you know, box jumps to burpees. And all this bullshit that people do just to make their clients sweat, it was like, I'm gonna coach you through the process, I'm gonna actually teach you why I'm doing what I'm doing. Like, you're gonna ask questions, and I'm gonna have answers. And if I don't, I'm gonna refer you to someone who does. So yeah,

Philip Pape 08:34

I love all of that. There's, there's a lot to unpack. But I want to cover a few things. I mean, you know, you hear a lot of personal trainers that come through as personal trainers, and they kind of build from there and you you took the route of with the blog, you know, the long form content, which you still do today with your podcast, kind of allowed you to dig in and almost sounds like you then also learn a lot in the process of doing the research and finding the evidence that then combined with what you were doing, combined with your niche or your your audience that wasn't served, you know, women, LGBTQ women, et cetera. You mentioned I think, Heather, you mentioned the evidence based training plus experience. And I think a lot of times people don't give enough credit to the anecdotes from years and years of experience you have working with clients. Right. And that is evidence to write evidence. So yeah, yeah.

Katie Kollath 09:21

Yeah, it's, it's, well, it's, it's what we preach a lot, because there is the yeah, there's research studies, but you I mean, we've all read research studies before, right? Like, you can pretty much find any to support your point of view, if you really, really wanted to, but there's also like, the 10 years that I've been training now, every individual person is different and it's like, Okay, this one thing might not apply to this this person. So it's like you have to be able to adapt and experience is what makes the trainer in. Everyone needs to start somewhere. That's why I was saying like, I wasn't the best trainer when I started, but I had some solid foundations, but I obviously I've learned a ton and it's like the more

Katie Kollath 10:00

Are you go in this industry, the more you realize you don't know. And that's the most exciting part. Because you just have this so much capacity to learn as you're coaching clients to like you might believe one thing and this one thing might have worked for so many clients over the years, then you get this one client who doesn't work for it. And you're you're for and your your paradigm is just kind of shattered. And you're like, alright, well, back to the drawing board. Like, let's figure it out. So yeah, well, that sounds like what a good coach does is make it individualized like that. And you have 99 people that fit the normal curve. And then the other one comes along, like strange outlier, and that's gonna teach you.

Philip Pape 10:34

Cool. So yeah. Now, whether you're an elite level power lifter, right, USPA I know, I saw a new website. So I'm gonna pull stuff from there. Oh, by the way, what other common was for people listening? The website says, like, don't continue if you want fast six pack abs. You had mentioned? Right? Because it's a process. But yeah, totally. So compete. powerlifting. Right. So actually, my very first coaching client as a nutrition coach was also a power lifter with the kinetic USPA. So it's kind of cool. And how was competing helped influence your brand, your mission, your coaching style?

Heather Hamilton 11:08

Yeah. So I think like when we first met, I know Katie was really into like, bodybuilding back then. And I must have just been getting into powerlifting. At that time. Yeah, we ended up doing our first meet together, actually, which was really cool. And we did a bunch of meats after that together. And then I went on and continue to compete in powerlifting, for years. And, yeah, I think that the biggest thing for us was, I suppose the empowerment that you feel when doing these, like full range of motion, heavy compound lifts, right? So it's not necessarily about the sport itself, as much as it is that you those, you know, the squat bench and the deadlift, while those aren't the, you know, the only three moves there three very good compound lifts. And when you can, you know, deadlift, two, three times your body weight, it's even one times your body weight sometimes, you know, it's just it's so empowering, especially for women, especially for women. Yeah. And so that was, I think, something that really just kind of stuck with us and has stuck with us throughout the brand. And it's kind of where we came up with the name at first, we were very barbell focused. So that's kind of our path, a portion of it. And that continued when Katie got more into Olympic lifting, and we both became Olympic lifting coaches. And yeah, but I think I think that whole concept just kind of stuck with our brand.

Katie Kollath 12:24

Yeah, it definitely it set the foundation for bar path just because that that is the reason why I had some solid foundations going into my training personal training career because I, you know, who, who, I don't know what I would have done, if I hadn't learned about like squatting deadlifting the importance of these bigger compound movements, maybe I would have been that trainer is just making you jump around doing burpees and making, right but I had some solid foundations that powerlifting taught me and I will be forever grateful for that experience. And I totally loved competing and it was super fun. But you know, you can go to the other extreme with any sport, any sport. And for me, it just kind of got like to be too much. That's why and I just kind of get I have workout add sometimes. So i That's why I went from powerlifting to Olympic lifting, but it was really cool. Because, like I said, when we first met, I was kind of into that bodybuilding. Like, I'm just gonna like to do like, you know, body parts split and whatever. And this was really cool because it shifted the focus from aesthetics, which most people have onto like, I want to get strong as fuck like, and it was really cool because now I'm like eating to fuel my body like I need to eat to fuel this performance if I want to do well in the meat and I just felt better overall. And I was like, wow, this is really cool. And I didn't get fat like I thought I would like back then right like moment eat more and I'm just gonna get fat. Like but no, it happened and I just got strong and looks better and yeah, it just it set the set the foundation for the brand. And that's why we're we want to help you help women especially get strong as shit. So yeah,

Philip Pape 13:58

I love that, Katie, I love it so much. Everybody listening should really listen to this episode and hear what you're saying. Because I hear the same thing, especially and I have women clients who they have to strain train, like, that's one of my prerequisites for working with me as a nutrition coach. And it always switches from a focus on the scale eventually to their lifts. And it's just a great transformation to see. And then you're right, it leads to the other things building and adding an including and not like restricting and cutting yourself down. Such such a great message. So yeah,

Katie Kollath 14:28

yeah, that is, that's our biggest message is we always want to add in things to people's lives because women especially they go into fitness because usually they want to look a certain way. And they're just like, I have to restrict I have to, you know, restrict my time so that it's only in the gym so I can see there's these results that I want but really it's coaching them and teaching them no you don't have to do that you can add these things look really good, feel really good, which is the most important and that's why we always like yeah, nutrition is so important. Like we talked about that all the time, but man strength training is just as important like it. I know people, you know, in the fitness industry, people are like, you know, it's 80% diet and 20% workout. I think that's bullshit. I think it's probably more so the resistance training and the strength training, because you can get away with a lot of shit when you when you do some resistance training, like obviously, even eating enough protein and calories is important, but it's like, man, people really overlook that aspect. Like, yeah, if your nutrition is on point, but you're doing a bunch of cardio training, like you're still not gonna get the body composition you want. And we all know the muscle. Yeah, we all know that's what women are looking for whether they think it's toning, whether they think it's whatever, getting lean and long muscles, but it's no, you have to strike right to build the muscle, because that's what they mean. So, see, this

Philip Pape 15:41

is why I want to do on the show, because in a way that I can't. And also I can't talk to women that way, necessarily. I wish I could do a one on one, but not. Oh, my God, that's that's awesome. I mean, I basically agree 1,000%. With, with what you're saying, and let's pick out some of those messages. One is that the training allows you to have more resilience and flexibility and everything else. Right. That's a huge message. Right? The other is, it's not all about diet. People who need to lose fat, probably need to fix their diet. But if you're not training, what are you going to do? You're just gonna lose muscle in the process. Exactly. So yeah, so every part of the step along the way, training has to be there. Yeah, I've even heard people talk about protein, like protein is important. But without the training signal, it doesn't do a lot for you would Yeah.

Katie Kollath 16:29

I mean, you can preserve some muscle if you're not training, but like, I'd rather see people eat protein than not either way. But yeah, like, if you're not sending the stimulus to your body to get stronger. Will it build muscle, then? Yeah, I mean, there's not really a I mean, there's a point always, I shouldn't say that. But it's like, they go hand in hand and you can't, you know, get the results you're looking for without both of them. So, yeah.

Philip Pape 16:53

Now from one coach to another, I like to appear behind the curtain with your process a little bit. You know, I am curious about the intake and all that. But I really want to talk about when you decided who you could serve and how you can help them. You sort of already talked about that. It's it became fairly clear. Maybe you were ahead of the curve back you said 2016 timeframe? Was it? Was it a more gradual process? Or did it? Did you kind of have to weed out the non ideal client over time? And now Now you've gotten that clarity?

Katie Kollath 17:22

Oh, my God, that was a process. Okay, yeah, they will kill me. No, no. We know, it has been a process. Because when you're starting out with in person training, you kind of just take whoever, right? So me, she would always get so frustrated, because I'm like, I don't want to niche down. I want to help everyone. Like, yeah,

17:41

I'm like a marketing person. So I understand that.

Katie Kollath 17:45

Yeah, so if you're working at a big box gym in Chicago, you're gonna get any and every one, right. I mean, there's like market conditions, like where your neighborhood is at, like you might get what type of person then you know, another but, but it's foot traffic. Exactly. So that wasn't something I ever thought about. Most personal training clients are women. So that's one of the more you know, prevalent type of person that you see, right is a woman. So that's why we're the basic foundation is like, Okay, we have like this powerlifting background, we know this is important, like the strength training aspect. And we we do serve a lot of women. Okay, that's kind of like, bare minimum. But then along the way, it's just like, I think you should talk about this as far as like the marketing piece, because it's, it's really important for if you want to build an online business, you have to have a niche, like, you can't just be like, I serve everyone, like, Yes, I can. But also you have to market to a certain person. So I feel like you should.

18:38

Totally I think it really shifted when we moved from Chicago to Colorado in 2019. So this was right before the pandemic, actually, yeah. Because we were starting to do some online things to supplement our income. We knew that we didn't want to do the, you know, 4am, client noon client and 7pm Client forever. No. So we, we wanted to have something online as well, hence, the blog and all that. But really, in 2019, when we moved across the country, together, we brought some people with us online. And that started kind of really the online portion of our brand. We have done some, you know, Excel, document training and things like that. But we didn't start using apps and all that jazz until we moved out here. And it just so happened it was about a year before the pandemic hit. Yeah, so the timing was I mean, unfortunately, it was good. Yeah. Not perfect. But yeah, it worked out well. And we even were able to so I since I've always worked at universities, I've always been a partner with various certification programs. So I was at the time I was a partner with ace. And I was doing I was teaching the ACE certification. So in my role at universities, I would train personal trainers. And so because I was a partner with them, we were able to create a course for other trainers, teaching them how to move their business online. So during the pandemic, that's one of the things that we did we don't do that anymore, just because now it's it's everywhere. But at the time, we were kind of able to jump on that Um, but anyway, back to the point of niching. Yeah, that's kind of when we really started honing in on our message a little bit more. And we really were attracting the people, mostly because of the way Katy talks.

Philip Pape 20:11

That's what it's all about, it's you, you're the product,

20:15

you're gonna turn some people off, and that's okay. And then you're gonna attract people that are really, really excited about what you represent. And we've always just been so value driven, like, we have always stood by our values and been very authentic. Like, we've never ever honestly, we've never partnered with like, a crazy supplement company or taken on any sponsorships, or anything that we didn't believe in. Yeah. And so, you know, sometimes that's hard to get a business off the ground. So that's why it took a long time. But now I'm very, very proud of it like, yeah, I feel really good about where we're at and what we've done and how we built it authentically. Yeah.

Philip Pape 20:49

I mean, just listening to your podcast, I could envision that the audience you know, and the people that are going to be attracted, you know, so it's so clear that, you know, like you said, you filter out people that just aren't gonna get it or want to work with you. Or maybe they'll get offended by how you talk or whatever it is, yeah. And you're gonna attract who you are. And that's, that's the differentiator, right? Because anybody can do the same type of programming and, you know, do mobility and do fall ROM and all this other stuff, but you are you are. So I will

Katie Kollath 21:14

say, I feel like people might be a little scared of me. I very much, am not like, I'm not gonna yell at you. If you're my client. Like, sometimes there is tough love. And honestly, that depends on the person to like, I have a couple of clients who they're like, I need you to just yell at me. And I'm like, to be sure, yeah, we respond really well to that. And I'm like, okay, and I have no problem doing that. But it's like, I'm not going to the way I talk on the podcast probably comes off like, kind of an asshole, but I can be, but I'm not. Most of the time,

21:45

leads with a lot of empathy. And

Philip Pape 21:47

you can hear that, yeah, the empathy. No, no, you really can you can hear the heart behind it. So I mean, totally. And I get it as entertainment. You know, I was we were joking before we even recorded like, I'm not your demographic at all. But I still love the show, because it's so entertaining. And that's, I love that. Yeah, it's like a form of Intel as a coach, of course, you know, the Insight is someone else's mind. But you you cover the topics that need to be covered with a little bit of, like I said, What a spunk or SAS or whatever. It's entertaining. And it's a it's two people, which is kind of cool, too, because I've never actually interviewed two people on a podcast. So it's kind of interesting again,

Katie Kollath 22:21

oh, this is good for you.

Philip Pape 22:24

You know, so it's very cool. All right. So why don't we get into a little bit of the the actual programming or the lifting side, which I like to dive in sometimes? Two things. One is the mobility approach to performance, you know, combining mobility with and leading that into strength. But then the other side is the full ROM, which I think there's a good segue between the two. Yeah, mainly, from the perspective, at least in my opinion, I hear a lot of times people say, Well, I have an issue with mobility, or I have bad knees, or I have whatever, and I can't squat to depth as a result. And I think we have it backward. I think it's you need to work toward depth with whatever lets you get there. And that gets you stronger in that full range, and then also improves mobility. But that's just me. What is your take on that?

Katie Kollath 23:05

Yeah, so it this is where like the individualization of a program is so important, because like you said, you can get one client who's coming to you with knee pain, and that's preventing them from squatting, you know, with a full range of motion, you might someone have someone else who has shoulder pain, and we have a lot of weakness in a you know, scapula area. So you have to prioritize those weaknesses and limitations that the person has, right. So that's why any, any program that you find on the internet is always going to be inferior to a personal training program. But obviously, that's not feasible for everyone. But I just want to illustrate the importance of that because your coach, if they're a good coach, they're going to, they're going to make that the utmost priority in their program, like keeping you out of pain and allowing you to work through a full range of motion is the absolute key to seeing success with your strength gains, your muscle gains, mobility gains, all of that, right. So with the mobility aspect, it's hard to the approach that I take is, okay, let's just say it's an it's a, your average person who has, maybe they have some, some work to do, right, the most common issues I see are weak hips, probably weak hamstrings, which potentially causes some knee issues, these are a lot of clients that I have. So we're going to be doing a lot of mobility work with that. And what I've found over the years is that if I program a warm up, they're never going to do it. So what I do is I sneak it into their program, so I create their warmup for them. So the approach I take is, okay, I'm gonna program let's just say the first few exercises, they're going to be more mobility focus exercises to prime them for whatever compound we're doing for the day. So and that obviously depends on the person if they're doing a full body workout, a more like upper body or lower body day or whatever it is. I'm going to look at the person where are their limitations, what do we need to work on? And I'm going to prioritize that at the beginning of the workout because not only there are they getting warmed up for the components, but we're making that the The thing that their body like is first doing in their workout. So it's going to be important, right and they're fresh doing it. So that that's one way especially, I will do that if the person is really having some issues, like if they can't get to whatever full range of motion we're trying to achieve, or if they are in pain, like that's going to be the main priority. And other ways I put it, put it at the end and what they're all They're still going to be exercises in the actual workout because mobility is strength training, right. So I think of mobility, and strength training, or mobility of a mobility exercise and more of a strength focused exercise, kind of like on a sliding scale, right. So there's more of like on the mobility, and there's more like your passive stretches right? In the middle. There's something like, so we love we've talked about a lot on our podcast, horse stance squat, which are probably new for people, but it's essentially just like a wider stance squat, which with your toes forward, and we're really working your, your hip strength, right, your quads strength, but we're also opening up your hips as well. So it's a really good hip in adductor mobility drill, too. So that's kind of somewhere in the middle for me, like you can gain a lot of strength. And that can apply to a movement, like a squat, or any of your lower body compound lifts. And it just kind of depends on like, where the person is at, like, I wish I could give you like a more straight on answer. But sometimes I'm doing mobility work at the beginning and the end of a workout for people, sometimes I'm throwing it in as just a warm up. So it's, it's so nuanced, but it's so important. Because once once you do it, and once you're, you're able to train through a full range of motion, it's crazy, the results, you're gonna get in just illustrating that with people who I've, let's say they can't get a full squat, for example, they're barely hitting parallel. And maybe we're doing barbell back squats, and I get them to take the weight off. And sometimes even like, I don't want to say, regress them, but bring them back to like a goblet squat, where they're the the weight is front loaded. So it's a little bit easier for them to get deeper because you have that counterbalance, kind of acting in the front of you. So they're able to sink deeper, and then their strength improves significantly and sort of their muscle because that's just to illustrate the power of training full through a full range of motion. So that's why mobility work is so important. Yeah. And

Katie Kollath 27:12

I think that we have to remember that mobility and stability go hand in hand, right? So a lot of people think they have a mobility issue. Yeah, when in reality, they have a stability issue or a strength in a specific range of motion issue, right. And so that is kind of where we start with everything, really, we look at your range of motion. And we know the ideal range of motion for your body, because it's different for everyone, right, but we can see it in your biomechanics. And then you know, we do some various tests and assessment and assessments. And we figure out where those weaknesses lie. And a lot of times, like Katie said, a lot of times it's hip weakness. People are like, Oh, my hips are tight. No, your hips are actually weak. A lot of times, yeah, or stability in their feet, right? Yeah, could be any of those things. Because one of the things that I do, and I know we're kind of honing in on the squats, but I see this a lot is, you know, maybe I'm doing an assessment with someone and they're barely hitting parallel. And then I'll have them hold on to like a pole or something. And I'm like, just sit in the bottom of a squat, and they can do it. I'm like, see your mobility is there because you lack the stability and the strength to do it. So

Katie Kollath 28:07

we just need to work on that. So that's why it's so yeah, it's so nuanced. And it just totally dependent on the person. So yeah.

Philip Pape 28:17

Katie Kollath 28:52

yeah. Great question. That is a really good question. So man, I wish I had like this really cool way that I could tell you, which could potentially help a person, you know, be an online coach, but really, it's just years of experience watching people and I'm in the years of experience watching people in person is key. And that's what I think is the most important thing is to get an experienced in person because you have to notice you have to learn on the fly, like to adjust the next set of needed or give them a cue in real time. So if I'm watching someone on a video, I you know, I'll analyze their set their a watch their whole video, right? If I'm noticing, noticing something, and sometimes I'm watching it twice, like, I can't figure this out, I can't pinpoint it. But it's more of just the longer that you train or you coach a person, the better you get to know how they move. And it's just the over time I just know, like I can, it just isn't another example. I can tell when people could do more weight to like, I can notice that pretty well in person, but I can see that on video too. Like, you know your first set looks similar to your last or your first rep look similar to your last rep we're going to add weight so it's the same thing with mobility like I can see someone's range of motion. And I can, you know, if their cameras good, like I can see like, like the quality of like where where they're at, you know, especially with different angles, it's sometimes hard with that, but I'll usually coach them like, can you get like more of a front view? Can you get a side view so I could see this. So it's less like real time in person, like, let's fix for the next set. It's more of like, okay, I want to work on this, this and this, watch this video before the next time you do this workout and apply it to the next time you do it. So yeah,

Philip Pape 30:29

yeah. And that and that approach. It's, it's great, because I think you're even giving the client a little bit more independence, because they have to take everything totally synthesizing their brain and then apply it. It kind of sets them up for even more success. Long term. At least it seems that way. That's a

Katie Kollath 30:43

good point, Philip. Like, I didn't even think of that. Like, it's really Yeah, it is really cool. Because a lot of the people they're a little nervous with, like taking videos and going into workouts are going to do the workouts on their own. And it doesn't power people because over like after a few weeks, they're like, Yeah, I got this like going to the gym like yeah, it's not a big deal anymore. So yeah, that's a really good point.

Philip Pape 31:02

Yeah, yeah. Added to marketing, marketing material. No, that's great. And the thing about seeing people in person is key. I definitely have heard trainers talk about that. Like, actually, I'm at my current coach for training is an online coach, who it's more in a club setting, because I don't need the one on one anymore. But he he was a trainer in person for years, you know, and he still has a club. So yeah, huge. Yeah. Yeah, for sure. It really? What about the skill based training? I think that's a term you've used skill based training, or resistance training as a skill. What do you mean by that? Yeah,

Katie Kollath 31:37

yeah, so all of the movements that you do when you're doing training or skills, right, obviously, they're gonna get you stronger and help you build muscle, but it's more of the mindset around it. So when people work out, they most people work out because they have some aesthetic goal, right. And that takes a long time. And you don't get objective feedback, really, even when you are reaching these goals. And maybe someone looking looking at you and maybe looking at your before and after picture, for example, and they can objectively see a difference, but you personally might not, because that's just how our brains are wired, right. So when you, when you think of your movements as skills that that to me, you're going in, you're practicing these foundational movement patterns that every human should do, and you're practicing them and you're getting, you're becoming essentially an expert at them, the more you do them, but when your mentality shifts to, I'm gonna try to achieve this goal or this skill in the gym, it completely changed your mind changes your mindset around training, because now every workout, you basically checked off a box, you know, as far as like, alright, I put in my work for the day or for the week, in along the lines of achieving this goal, even if even if it's just like we're talking about getting a full range of motion your squat, right. So that could be the skill you're working towards. Or like, we coach a lot of women to do pull ups like that, like that is more objective, and it's really empowering over, I want to look a certain way, because you're not going to see that after every workout, you might have the workout where you get your first pull up, and that's fucking exciting. Like, it's really awesome. And you have that objectively it happened, right? So and it keeps people coming back once we can get your mindset to, okay, like, we're gonna go to the gym, and I'm gonna achieve these skills for the day, I'm gonna do this work, I'm going to you know, try to apply whatever intensity I need to. And then okay, I've, I've accomplished something for the day versus I'm going to work out because I want to get six pack abs. Yeah, I'm gonna be a little discouraged, because I didn't get it in this workout, which people know, but like on paper, or people know, on paper, but like in their minds, like they want those quick results right away. So

33:38

yeah, and I think I think it's interesting, because if you look at the research behind adult learning, and you look at the research behind, like, when we learn things, what happens in our brains, it's amazing. And so we like to add that to fitness as well, right? Because you're getting not just more benefit, but it's also something's going to keep you coming back and keep you accountable and keep you showing up every time as you learn something you map. It's mastery, right? It's skill mastery. Yeah. Even if it's just the littlest thing, it's still mastering a skill and that does something very powerful. Especially you know, when it comes to like having competence over your own like body

Katie Kollath 34:17

Yeah, and it's, it's just fun when the when the side effects of training these skills is that you get stronger, and you tend to look better in your body composition starts to get better. But that's just, that is just a nice side effect that when you're focused on achieving these skills in the gym, you're not so obsessed with the aesthetic aspect. And when it happens, you're like, oh, shit, like, I wasn't even worried about it. And it happens. And I

34:39

think one of the hard parts about this because we talk about this a lot, but when it comes to like research on this, the interesting thing is that a lot of research when it comes in, like at least previous research in strength, and fitness has been on like machines, right? Because it's the easiest thing. So they're putting people on these machines, and then they're not getting that skill aspect. So I'm very interested in More and more of the research coming out of people actually doing like skill based movements like squats or deadlifts. Yeah, yeah.

Philip Pape 35:05

I love this. I love your passion for this too. But the whole thing about small wins, quick wins, keeping people coming back. And that's what it's all about. And haven't you heard? Or do you find that your clients, even their narrative and their language changes over time from, like you said, a mindset shift from the beginning to maybe they're even the ones seeking some of these gains that they never thought they would ask for. Right?

Katie Kollath 35:26

Yeah, it's pretty crazy. Like, just sometimes the one thing I focus on with people is just getting enough protein in. And I've had a few clients recently where we've really honed in on that, and they're consistently hitting their protein, and they're like, holy shit, I have never felt stronger than I have right now. And I'm like, Isn't that awesome? Isn't that really cool that you really didn't change anything else besides getting enough protein, and now look at you like, now you're, you know, maybe your PR and on your squats or whatever, but it's like, their, their mindset has shifted to like, I just want to like crush my training. And that's really cool to see. Because most people when they come to you, or you as in like any trainer anywhere, like, they want to lose weight, like that's the number one goal that people see, right? Or they want to get thrown in those weight. And it's just like, Okay, I've learned to not scoff at that. Because that's not how you, that's how you lose people really quickly. But over time, with coaching with, you know, some coaching and a lot of like, education for them, it slowly starts to like, click in their brains. And that's the really cool part. And that's the most fun part. Because it's like, now it's going to be part of their life, forever, forever. It's not just like, I have a wedding in six months, and I want to look this way. But now it's like, Oh, I feel really good doing this. And I want to continue doing this for life. So that's a revelation.

Philip Pape 36:48

Yeah, yeah. And so related to that, right, we talked a little bit about how strength training can then improve other things, right? Productivity, confidence, capability, performance, how you feel, not focusing on the scale, not focusing on food, or accept as fuel, you know, in a positive way. I think one of you maybe it was you, Heather, because you're more into the research. Did an eight week university program I think with women employees, I did. Yeah, we found some results, right. Can you tell us about that?

Heather Hamilton 37:18

Yeah, totally. So one of the universities I worked at, I did a little bit of a, okay, this was not like IRB approved or anything. So I actually do a whole resource project. But I did collect some data. And it was really interesting. And so what I did was I took a group of women and I created basically an eight week program, and it was resistance training twice, twice a week as a community. And we tested their one rep max, or excuse me, not their one rep max, their, I think it was their five rep max, actually, because at this point, some of them were not trained. So I would never test their one rep max right away. So we did like a five rep max test in the beginning of I think it was overhead press deadlift, there may have been a squat in there as well. And then, at the end of the eight weeks, we tested it again. But the other thing that we did alongside this was we did a survey, and we asked about, we asked them to self report how they felt in their jobs. So what was their confidence? Public speaking in their job when they had to speak in front of someone? What was their confidence, asking for a raise if they felt like they deserved one? How do they feel connected to their community at work? What was their productivity like? Questions like that, and the cool thing was, after the eight week program, not only did every single person obviously increase their five rep max for all their lifts, they also increase their confidence, they increase their productivity, and it was just really, really cool. And they also built community because we did it as a group, which was really neat.

Philip Pape 38:41

Awesome. Yeah. It's great to see the science and I mean, you know, from anecdotally, but it's really cool to just test it longitudinally like that in a short timeframe. Nice. Yeah. So yeah, I want to I want to ask you about your podcast. Okay. So Stronger Than Your Boyfriend, great name. Great podcast. And tagline. Yeah, right. It's good. That actually, you know, it's funny because I'm doing a speech for Toastmasters speaking in public speaking. Oh, wow. I kind of stole your title a little bit. Go my speech, and I called it stronger than her boyfriend. Implying that I want to be stronger than my daughter's wife when she gets older. But

Katie Kollath 39:19

she should be stronger than her if she

Philip Pape 39:22

did that. Yes. That's fine with me. Yeah. So the tagline is helping you navigate the BS and toxic misinformation in the fitness industry one episode at a time. And this is just my opinion, but I feel like we're kindred spirits when it comes to cutting through the insanity. Right? Yeah. The social algorithms, the stunts that you see online, the misleading dangerous, let's call it dangerous information. Yeah, usually for a quick buck or two cell Sunday. Yeah. So my question is, what is the most BS EBS, or, like radioactively toxic nonsense that you've seen?

Katie Kollath 39:59

Oh my God, I feel like we could do a whole hour,

Philip Pape 40:03

just pick the top three now,

Katie Kollath 40:05

it's man, a lot of it is going to relate to the fitness industry messaging towards women. And the and I know that slowly changing and that's why we talked about in the beginning, that's part of the reason why we started our brand, but it's just the we're do a bunch of cardio lose weight, long, lean muscles, toning, like all of that is not a thing. And the I guess it's it's just a lot of the Okay, eat less move more that in and of itself can work for some people. But for most people who are training and they've tried and tried so many things, it doesn't work for them. So that's why we're all about adding in, we're adding strength training, and we're adding protein and we're adding calories in and that I feel like is kind of the overarching, toxic is, I don't know that there's so many like toxic little nuggets you find here and there. And you can go on Instagram right now and get like a bunch,

Philip Pape 41:00

you can just go do that, though. Because then your algorithms get to just get your stuff

Katie Kollath 41:06

or whatever you're looking at. But yeah, it's just, that's why we've kind of built our brand and our target audience around that and why we decided to really do the podcast so we can talk about it long form and not try to like do these Instagram reels where people have you know, 15 second intentions, attention span, right? So it's like, how can we have to talk this through? And that's what we, you know, do give a little bit of research to try to help back up our claims. But it's more of like, Let's talk this through because that like eating less, moving more isn't the way and it's it's not going to be sustainable long term. So

Heather Hamilton 41:41

yeah, I think I mean, I think you nailed it.

Katie Kollath 41:43

Yeah. Man. I mean, I know you said one. But it's like, the, what I feel like I'm seeing right now, probably mostly on social media is like the, we're either going to cut out all vegetables, we're going to cut out all meat, we're going to cut out all our jobs, we're going to just cut, cut, cut, because this way is the this way or the highway. And I just think that is so toxic for people, because everyone's on social media in there. If you're someone into fitness, this shirt is going to pop up on your feed because of the algorithms. And you're going to learn that vegetables are bad for you. Because they have I don't know, some

Philip Pape 42:18

whatever toxic effects on your diets or something. Yeah, well, we

Katie Kollath 42:21

are we serious right now, it's hard enough to get people to eat whole natural foods. And now you're telling them to not eat vegetables, like, it's just, it's really that shit. I really just want to caution people to take with a grain of salt and do your due diligence. And like, if you really want to try a certain diet or whatever, that's fine, but do your research and like maybe talk to a professional who can maybe coach you through it. But that is the bullshit that I'm seeing right now. Because, like the I feel like this whole, like primal movement is like on Instagram right now. And it's like, what we're angry like, whatever.

Philip Pape 42:57

Yeah, like, yes.

Katie Kollath 42:59

We Yeah, let's eat, you know, a whole fucking raw liver and like, just be okay. Like, no. Like, like, let's have a more like balanced approach, like, Yes, try to eat whole foods as much as you can. But like, we also live in 2023. And there's cake and ice cream. And that's fun to eat sometimes. But as long as that's not, you know, the majority of your diet, it's going to be okay, you're not going to die like, or you're not going to just, you know, wipe all the things you've been working towards. Right. So, yeah, I

Heather Hamilton 43:27

think it's interesting because it has changed over the years, right? Because I think back in like 2013 or 2014. When we did that presentation, remember that we did a collegiate present a university presentation on fitness myths. Yeah. And back then I think it was, you know, way different than what's prevalent today.

Katie Kollath 43:42

Yeah,

Heather Hamilton 43:42

I mean, I think your question is valid, but I feel like you could ask us over different Yeah.

Katie Kollath 43:47

We should do this podcast next year and see what we've

Philip Pape 43:51

asked the same question. So here's the thing. On your most recent episode, you had a q&a and one of those was about seed oils, right? And I really appreciated your treatment of that because I'm fully in alignment. As a nutrition coach, nothing's off pretty much nothing's off the table. Other than maybe like trans fats or something in a very tiny corner. But even the way you treated seed oils was like this healthy skepticism or you said look, the evidence is equivocal, we don't quite know. Maybe don't take the chance and just don't cook with it on your own. But you're gonna go out to eat and you're gonna maybe get fat usually fine. It's gonna sneak in. But like, let's not you know, go panic about it. Yeah, start and start going the opposite direction saying is just going to kill you.

Katie Kollath 44:30

Yeah, and that should be your approach to your whole like, nutritional philosophy, right? Like, it's like, make the food at home that you cook like whole natural foods. And then when inevitably you go on vacation or you go out to dinner, like, don't stress about it, because you've been doing well like the majority of the time, so one meal is gonna kill you. One time you eat vegetable oils isn't gonna kill you. Like, I feel like that's a really big trend right now too. It's like this, all or nothing. Oils are gonna kill you. And it's like, where there is actually no A meta analysis that show that but also, I'm not going to take a chance because I know olive oil is really healthy for you have caught oil, coconut oil, like even butter in small quantities, whatever. Like, I just I think that's a little bit more nutritious personally,

Heather Hamilton 45:12

if you see the way that fuels are made, you're like, yeah,

Katie Kollath 45:15

so you don't take the chance. But like my family, my family was in town and we went out to dinner a few times, it was stressing and like, Hey, can you cook this and butter it? Like, please don't like touch my food with your seed oils? And no, I'm not gonna you're not gonna be weird. Yeah, not gonna be weird or do that. You know, and it's like, it's, it's okay, you're not gonna die. Like, I remember reading some thing. And I don't even know if this is true. They were like, yeah, if you eat vegetable oil, it stays in your system for two years. And it's just like, carcinogenic. And I'm like, why are we saying this? Why I feel like probably the other things that you're doing or not doing are probably more carcinogenic, or, you know, cancer promoting whatever you want to say. Then the small amount of canola oil that you might have eaten on your chicken like it's, it's Yeah, and

Philip Pape 45:58

these these rules or whatever, always put out as if it's a big secret, right? It's like, here's the thing. They're not telling you. Here's the thing, you don't know. I'm gonna lay it out on you. And by the way, it's like,

Katie Kollath 46:07

yeah, like, calm down, like your people are already scared. They're like, Oh, my God, carbs or Oh, my God fat. And it's like, what can you eat? Literally nothing. Because now the next thing they're gonna demonize is protein. I'm gonna put that out there right now. Like, do much protein is gonna kill you. And it's like, alright, well, then we're just gonna try to be plants and like, live off the sun. Yeah, no argument from me. No, yeah. So yeah, it's just a balanced approach. And with the vegetable oils, in particular vegetable and seed oils, it's like, we don't cook with them. But we're not gonna stress if we encounter them, you know, outside. So yeah.

Philip Pape 46:40

So a more positive Thai interior. No, no, that's cool. No, that's what we got. We got to lay it out. It's real. Yeah. Your podcast as well. I was curious if it's made you better coaches?

Katie Kollath 46:51

i Yeah, I think so. And we're, we've only been doing it for what, six months now? Yeah. So I think there's, yeah, there's a lot of room for for growth there as well. Podcast hosts and coaches, particularly, you know, me in general, because I do a lot more coaching than other I should say. But yeah, it's, it has helped and I, I have learned to, to definitely like, okay, take a step back and just listen and listen to others opinions, too. And like, think about, you know, what you're going to say before you say it more, because if you couldn't tell them more of the person that's just like, I'm gonna say whatever is on the top of my mind. So it definitely has helped me with that, because I still do have a few in person clients. And that applies to them as well, because I'm having conversations in real time with them. So even if we're not talking about anything, when it comes to fitness, I'm just like, oh, okay, your opinion is this? Well, let me let me come at you with, you know, a warm approach versus like, none other than that, like, I'm gonna debate your opinion in this kind of controversial way. So, so far, that's what I've noticed. Because I do have a lot of conversations with clients. And it's like, Okay, I just learned to listen and learn to think through your thoughts a little bit more. So yeah, I

Heather Hamilton 48:05

think it causes us to be a little more discerning when we're looking at various topics. And yeah, and things like that, when you're doing the research for podcasts, you know, you really want and you really want to give all the information you can that is legitimate. And so, you know, it does cause us to do I mean, our blog has always done that, too. Right. We've done a lot of research for that. But I don't know the podcasts. It's, it's yeah, we do a lot of them. We do two episodes a week. So

Katie Kollath 48:27

well, kind of going back with a vegetable slash seed oil example to illustrate this. Like we, I think a few years ago, we were very much on the train like we we don't want any vegetable oils in our Yeah, but then we wanted to do, or we, we saw some questions. We saw this kind of movement on Instagram, and we're gonna do this, you answer this question on the podcast. And I'm like, you know, I started the initial research on him. And I was like, Heather, I cannot find anything, like any long term study that shows this is harmful. And I think we, we saw some other

Heather Hamilton 48:57

there's like, there's a lot of correlation relationship, but there's no, we can't say causation yet. Yeah. You know, we have to be real about that. And that's the thing with science is your opinion is going to change. And so yeah, I'm sure that there are episodes that we're gonna go back next year and be like, well, guess what, yeah, data has come out and we are changing our mind about that. Yeah. And we've learned about this,

Katie Kollath 49:15

but that's science and it's always going to change and that's

Heather Hamilton 49:19

how coaches evolve and that's totally natural. Any coach that's like No, I still believe this thing from 20 years ago. They're

Katie Kollath 49:26

just like, if when I first started I would try to almost make everyone a powerlifter like not that they would compete but I was like you're gonna squat bench and deadlift, but grandma, grandma Karen you know who's 75 and is never strength train in her life. I don't think she really should be doing barbell back squats yet. Like we could work towards getting there. But we need some, you know, variations to build up to that. So it's like, it's kind of you know, it's it's definitely there's nuance and everything and you just have to be open enough and open minded enough to be able to change your opinions and be okay with it and like not really care are what people think because you're always going to have people who are in those like dogmatic camps, like vegan carnivore seed oil, but like all this, and those people are just going to be those people. But most people aren't. Most people have opinions but are open to change. And that's what you have to be as a good coach, you have to be open to changing your mind, and be okay with it and not be embarrassed by it. But also, like, be willing to grow from it. Because you're always going to do that. And you as you know, you should you should always be trying to grow in your career in your life, you know, etc. So,

Philip Pape 50:31

excellent. I just wanted to pause at that those thoughts, because it's, it's all great stuff. And I agree podcasting is has so many values for not only the research part of it, but even consider being on others. And you have I know you've interviewed folks on your podcast as well, I'm sure you, like even selfishly ask them questions that you want to learn which then the audience learns from Yeah. That way, too. Yeah.

Katie Kollath 50:54

Yeah. Yeah, it's been really fun. We're starting to get more and more people on the podcast, which is gonna be really fun for me.

Philip Pape 51:01

know for sure. Okay, so second, the last question, I like to ask this of all guests. And that is what What question did you wish I'd asked? And what is your answer?

Katie Kollath 51:10

Hmm, I think we're, we're, this is our hard one that we were talking about right before this. But I maybe being a female coach in this industry has its challenges. It's a very male dominated industry. So how we've kind of pushed through that, because personal training in general, the turnover rate is insanely high. So like, when I had the gyms in, in Chicago that I that I worked at, like, there was trainer after trainer, like there was a select few trainers that were there for years, I was probably one of the only women who was there for years at the gym that I was at. So yeah, just kind of pushing through that. And I don't say competing, but being up against like a very being, you know, integrated in a very male dominated industry, which I feel like a lot of industries are, but this one specifically is hard, because a lot of people don't see women as authorities. And I think that's slowly changing. But if you're training with a big jacked guy, which, you know, felt like it's easier for you to build muscle, right? You're a guy. So it's like,

Philip Pape 52:24

I don't know, I don't

Katie Kollath 52:26

know, like, if you're, if you're, you know, a client, and then you get me who's like a smaller woman, and I have some muscle, but like, you know, I'm not like walking around in a tank top and shorts. So it's like, but then you see this jack guy, and okay, he's, he's super jacked. And he's really muscular and rich, like, I'm gonna listen to him. So even though I might have better information, or my coaching style, maybe will fit with him a little bit more. It's that, you know, working through that was was interesting, and I don't hear a lot of female coaches talk about that, nor do I ever hear them get asked that too. So I guess that's the answer. Yeah. No, I

Heather Hamilton 53:07

think that's a good answer. We just had an episode two on our podcast pretty recently. Well, I don't know when this will come out. But it was called How to fire your trainer. And we talked about this. And we talked about what makes a good trainer and how, as the client to find that, and what red flags to look for, and things like that. But that kind of goes along with what Katie is talking about, like, it's fitness in general, a lot of times it's about image, and we are definitely like is not our brand. Right. And so that has been hard, and then throw on top of that being a woman and then throw on top of that being a gay woman. Yeah, you know, it's just been a challenge. And so I guess that's just something we kind of wanted to talk about. Yeah,

Katie Kollath 53:43

it's, you know, and again, I think this is definitely changing now. But if you were a successful female coach, you probably looked a certain way, like you had, you know, clinical body. Whereas, like, a lot of the guys, the guy trainers that I worked with, didn't you know, and which shouldn't matter, right, it shouldn't matter. But it's like I was almost a lesson because I wasn't super rich or jacked like them. And that I had to work three times as hard to get someone's respect and get them to trust me, in that I knew what I was doing versus like, I'm gonna go to this jock guy who like maybe even has a little beer belly, but he's jacked and he's a guy. So that is what I've personally and like, whatever people can get, get their wool bullshit fired up, like you know, they're so like, offended by quote, unquote, woke culture, but I'm telling you my experience as a female coach, and that is a big part of what I experienced when I first started. So if you want to, like chalk it up to walk woke culture or whatever, like go for it, but I'm telling you, like, you can have your opinions but when you actually live it and you kind of grind through it like it's, it was rough, and I'm honestly surprised I stuck through it, but I just like, I really, you know, figured out the passion for helping people and to help change this message. Even if it's just, we're a small part of the fitness industry, even, you know, the small impact we have on our little community. Like, it's worth it for both of us. So it's awesome.

Philip Pape 55:09

I mean, that's what I was gonna follow up was gonna be how, how can you change the message? I mean, you're already doing it right. But how can others listening? Help? Yeah, yeah,

Katie Kollath 55:17

yeah, we'll share our listen to our podcasts. And that's the best way. Because if you, you know, if you look at the episode titles, and it's a topic that you're interested in, like, just having the ability to talk through it long form, and hash out ideas, it's, you, whatever your opinion is, or not, like, you can still agree with us, or you could still disagree with us, but you've still listened to our experience and our the research that we've done, and also our opinions as well. So it's just a really good way to, to get to know us. And potentially, you know, change your mindset around fitness, which we've had just sharing, you know, the podcasts in different Facebook groups or whatever, social media platforms, and I've gotten some messages like, wow, I would have never thought of, you know, working out this way, or strength training this way, or eating more this way? Or, you know, etc, etc. So, yeah,

Philip Pape 56:10

changing lives. That's awesome. Yeah. Oh, yeah. No, and my last question is gonna be where can people find you? So obviously, you can download your podcast? Yeah. And then where else? Can they find you?

Heather Hamilton 56:19

Yeah, so our website is bar path. fitness.com. So you can find it there. You can download our what is it? How to find your maintenance calorie guide? And, you know, get added to the newsletter. And then we do have a Facebook group as well. Yeah, right now called Stronger Than Your Boyfriend. Yeah, just like the just like the podcast. Um, so you can jump in there, too. Sometimes we do challenges and things like that. Yeah, we

Katie Kollath 56:41

do challenges. We do live trainings. If you want to like post, we're gonna post a video of yourself lifting and you want some like form analysis, we're on there and critique it. I mean, that's where we're at right now. I mean, we we plan on the the Facebook group to continue to grow, so I don't know if that will, it will stay that way. So I would take advantage of it now. But yeah, and then social, the social media, social media. Mostly Instagram, Instagram, and Facebook is where we're most active @barpathfitness on Instagram. We do posts a little on the tick tock. Sort of, we potentially might get better at it. We'll see. But that's it's the same handle @barpathfitness. So yeah. All right,

Philip Pape 57:21

cool. So all that's gonna be in the show notes. No matter what. I'm gonna encourage people who are listening to download your podcast Stronger Than Your Boyfriend. Definitely go check out the same Facebook group. And then your website, which is barpathfitness.com. Yes. Perfect. And I mean, this was so much fun. This is one of the best interviews I've had on the show. Why two way?

Heather Hamilton 57:39

Do you say that everyone? Yeah,

Philip Pape 57:40

do you think you can go it's on the record, go listen,

Katie Kollath 57:43

I show it's gonna feel I'm gonna go back and listen. I might have thought,

Philip Pape 57:47

Should I say that? And I'm like, No, I'm gonna reserve it to that I really mean it. And so well, you have so much integrity, like that's what really comes out all of this, whatever the specific message is, the importance is you've got the value and the integrity, and it shows. So thank you so much for taking the time. I'm very grateful that you came on the show.

Katie Kollath 58:06

Thank you so much. Thanks for having me. So awesome. And we're excited to have you on ours. Yes, looking forward to it. Yes. Well, thank you so much. This was so much fun.

Philip Pape 58:16

Thanks for listening to the show. Before you go, I have a quick favorite ask. If you enjoy the podcast, let me know by leaving a five star review in Apple podcasts and telling others about the show. Thanks again for joining me Philip Pape in this episode of Wits & Weights. I'll see you next time and stay strong.

Philip Pape 3/24/23 Philip Pape 3/24/23

Ep 55: The “Best” Diet for Weight Loss and Finding Food Freedom with Kate Bay Jaramillo

Today we dive into some hot nutrition topics. What is the “best” diet for weight/fat loss and how can women over 40 prioritize and optimize their health? Should you consider intermittent fasting (time-restricted feeding), especially for women? How can you unleashing the power of your mind to create results?

We touch on disordered eating habits and body image concerns, and what to do if someone is resistant to change or has difficulty following their nutrition plan. Finally, we discuss the online nutrition coaching business, establishing a unique niche, and the best way to measure the success of your nutrition coaching to keep improving.

My guest is Kate Bay Jaramillo, a business coach of mine who has helped me serve clients and listeners better than I could ever have imagined and has impacted many other coaches and clients during her career.

Kate is a Master Fitness Instructor, Nutrition Business Coach, and cookbook author. She is the Founder of Ketogenic Living 101, and the Co-Owner and Director of Client Success at Beyond Macros. If you’re a nutrition coach, check out their Facebook group, called Online Nutrition Coach Community #ONCC, where you can meet Kate firsthand and see all of the great work she’s doing.

Most importantly, Kate is a loving wife and mother of four amazing children. In her spare time, Kate enjoys traveling, cooking, and coaching elementary cheerleading.

Today you’ll learn all about:

How Kate got into the fitness, nutrition, and business coaching space
The “best” diet for weight loss
How women over 40 can prioritize and optimize their health
Intermittent fasting (time-restricted feeding), especially for women
Why nutrition and fitness (whole-body wellness) are essential
Unleashing the power of our minds to create results
How to balance the need for individualized plans with science
Disordered eating habits and body image concerns
Clients who are resistant to change or have difficulty following their nutrition plan
Differentiating from other online nutrition coaches with a unique niche
Measuring success of your business to keep improving

Episode resources

Visit the Online Nutrition Coach Community
Find Kate on Facebook here
Watch the episode on video here

👉 If you want to learn more about lifting and nutrition, reach out to Philip:

IG: https://www.instagram.com/witsandweights/
Email: philip@witsandweights.com

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Transcript

Philip Pape 00:08

Welcome to the Wits & Weights podcast, where we discuss getting strong and healthy with strength training and sustainable nutrition. I'm your host, Philip pape, and in each episode, we examine strategies to help you achieve physical self mastery through a healthy skepticism of the fitness industry, and a commitment to consistent nutrition and training for sustainable results. Welcome to another episode of Wits & Weights. I think you're going to love my guest today because her expertise her energy positivity, ability to inspire are infectious. We know each other because she's a business coach of mine who has helped me serve clients and listeners better than I could ever have imagined and is impacted so many other clients and coaches during her career. Her name is Kate Bay hmil. And Kate and I are going to chat about some of today's hot nutrition topics, such as specific diets for fat loss, health for women over 40 intermittent fasting, the importance of training and the connection between mind and body when it comes to getting results. We'll also get into the business side of coaching a bit she lets me Kate is a master fitness instructor, nutrition business coach and cookbook author. She's the founder of ketogenic living one on one and the co owner and director of client success at beyond macros. If you're a nutrition coach, check out their Facebook group called online nutrition coach community, hashtag lNcc, where you can meet Kate firsthand and see all the great work she's doing. Most importantly, Kate is a loving wife and mother of four amazing children. In her spare time Kate enjoys traveling, cooking and coaching elementary cheerleading. Kate, I'm genuinely ecstatic that you're here. I'm looking forward to this conversation and trying to match your incredible energy.

Kate Jaramillo 01:50

Oh, thank you so much for having me. I'm so excited to be on Wits, & Weights, I've been like following you and watching you and it's awesome.

Philip Pape 01:58

Yeah, let's start at the top. And then I'm sure we're gonna have a great conversation. Just you know how you got here, what your story is, and how you got into the space of fitness of nutrition. And now nutrition, business coaching.

Kate Jaramillo 02:10

So it all started with a spin class. I used to work at the Greater Philadelphia Chamber of Commerce. And we had a company membership at the best gym in the city. Like it's where all the celebrities go and train when they're in town. So I got to meet some interesting people and watch them train. But going that gym offered a spin class and I had never done that before. But a co worker of mine was like, Oh, come to this class with me. Dark lights, EDM music, and my heart is like pounding. I was like, Oh my gosh, I found my soulmate workout. So I did it for a few years. And I was like, I should get certified in this. Because if I listen, if all else falls apart, I could be a spin class DJ. I really good, like music and my glasses. So I did that. And I you know, I was like teaching classes. And then after the birth of my first daughter, I didn't go back to work. I was like holding my little baby. I'm like, I can't leave you. I want to be with you all the time. So I didn't go back to my job. And I just started teaching fitness classes and getting certified in additional formats. As you mentioned, I became a master trainer. So I was training the trainer's in like Insanity and p90x, I was doing PIO and turbo kick, I was actually certified in turbo kick by the Creator Chalene Johnson, which is super cool. And people would always ask me in my classes, you know, what should I eat before my class what she after my class and trying to lose weight and trying to build muscle, blah, blah, blah. And I was telling them what I did. But I felt like I needed to know more so that I could do more and give more. And I actually, my first certification in nutrition was through the Institute of nutritional leadership, which is run by Dr. Josh Axe. And he was the one that actually turned me on to keto ketogenic likes. Now, the reason that he turned me on to it is because he said that this is this is what he uses to help his clients who have been stuck, break plateau, break through weight loss plateaus, and lose weight quickly. Well, at this time, I had had, you know, a group of women following me, and there was like, 20 of them that were completely stuck. So I reached out to them, and I was like, hey, like, I want to do something a little crazy. I want to coach you on something called keto. It flips everything that we know about nutrition up on its head, but I feel like it could work. So 10 of them said Yes, I got nine of them to complete an eight week program with me. And the average amount that these women were losing was like 20 pounds. So I knew that I was onto something. Now full disclosure, I did not have a weight loss goal. Either, you know good genetics or just working out a lot. I didn't have a weight loss goal. But what I found was a total increase in energy and men Well, clarity, I wasn't grabbing for that 2pm 3pm cup of coffee from my energy son. So I really latched on to the ketogenic lifestyle, and I coached more people on I was developing programs. And I decided like, this is what I really want to focus on. So let me Google, like keto coach certification. That's really what I want to do. And I'm doing all this searching and I'm, I'm finding nothing, there was no specialty certification. So by this time, I was pretty well connected in the health and fitness industry. I was working with a great mentor. And I approached her and I was like, hey, like, this doesn't exist. And she's like, Oh, my God, build it, I'll help you. So that's what I did. And I worked with people who are much smarter than me. And we created together the first ketogenic coach certification. And it was the first one that was continuing education credit approved. Through that I actually met my business partner, Matt, because I started writing certifications for other health and fitness companies. And we came together to collaborate on guiding other coaches in creating their own coaching programs, their own lifestyle programs, their own certifications. And the rest so far is history.

Philip Pape 06:15

Yeah, I love that. There's so much I didn't know about your history there. And it's funny how, you know, think if you had written that path for yourself, it would probably not look anything like that. Today, right.

Kate Jaramillo 06:27

I went to school for broadcast and communications. Yeah, like I worked in a TV station before I worked for the Chamber of Commerce.

Philip Pape 06:33

Got it. You know, I could see that I can see the you know, TV. Yeah. Yeah. So that's cool. So you, you were you're doing the spin class, you branched off into some other areas of fitness, the insanity of p90x? Yeah, not just organically clients, you know, saw you as a helpful person, I'm sure. And they started asking you about nutrition. And you found something that worked. And, you know, we don't have to pussyfoot around it. Like, you know, I'm a big fan of flexible nutrition and individualizing your nutrition, and I have nothing against a specific diet, if it's the right thing for people. Right. So, you know, you discovered that it was helpful to folks, and it led to kind of a broader mission, right with Matt and with now beyond macros to help coaches build that. So maybe maybe we segue into the next topic, which is what is the best diet and this kind of a setup? Right? What is the best diet for weight loss or fat loss?

Kate Jaramillo 07:24

Yeah, the best one is the one that you can follow that feels good for you. So that's, that's also helping you reach all of your health markers. Because something that I've learned throughout the years is that weight loss and weight gain are a side effect of something else that's going on in the body. So I learned so much about inflammation and toxicity. In just like, what I'm what we're putting into our bodies and our thoughts that we're having about what we're putting into our bodies, and how all of the things are tied together sleep and stress and movement, how it's all tied together. And I know for so many people, right? Like so many people have had a ton of success with keto. And what I noticed for myself, was that I wanted to experiment a little bit more with carbohydrates and what my carb tolerance was. So this is really crazy. But like, I told you, I didn't have a weight problem. I did have a sugar problem. I'm originally from Hershey, Pennsylvania, like, where chocolate is made. Legit, like pictures of me as a child with chocolate milk in my bottle. Like we and I grew up in a huge dessert family like we were always eating desserts and snacks. Yeah, we got like, one time I like made my boyfriend the time like drive to 711 with me and like the middle of the night. I was like, I need chocolate milk. Like so I really get the plight of people that have sugar issues. And I noticed that like I was really gross, but I was like in my 30s and I was like developing like like little skin tags. I was like it what is this? This is so gross. This is like from hormones and babies and all the things and I didn't realize at the time, but that can be a sign of pre diabetes. Okay, so something that keto helped me with was managing that sugar addiction, like I was able to break past it. And the skin tags like disappeared. But I also wanted to start incorporating more carbohydrates into my diet. And the reason I wanted to do that was because I just felt like I was hitting walls with like teaching fitness. There was a time where I was teaching like 15 to 17 group fitness classes a week, and especially if you're on the bike, or if you're doing like really heavy cardio cardio activities, like Insanity. I just was like I was gas like I was starting to run out of energy. So I wanted to experiment with incorporating more carbohydrates, especially because I've moved past like the sugar addiction phase of my life. So I started doing this with like some some carb cycling. And I want to tell you, I hated it. What Has it required so much precision, in like tracking and everything. So I know for some people who really love to look at numbers and feel really good about tracking and measuring and weighing, something like that can work great for you. For me, it was not sustainable, because that is not me. I like to eyeball things I like to put stuff together. And I love food, I love food. And I don't want to just like restrict things all the time. So I'm the best I like that would have not been the best diet for me to follow. I gradually started just incorporating carbohydrates when I felt like I wanted them. And like, knowing what I know about nutrition, I was using things like rice and sweet potatoes and regular potato and things like that. And sometimes like just different beans and legumes and things like that. And I was fine. I didn't have cravings, I wasn't gaining weight, I felt really good. I then I just started to play with more protein and eating instead of eating like 70% Fat 25% protein 5% carbs. Really like playing with those numbers to to a point where now, I know that I'm eating like about a gram of protein per pound of body weight, and carbs and fats, I don't really track I don't track protein anymore, either. But I got to a place where I was like, I like to track anything. I have a Rolodex of favorite foods. And I eat pretty simply, when I want to follow a recipe or get fancy I do. But for the most part, I like protein and vegetables and fruit and some carbs. For me that is the most sustainable thing for anybody. It's got to be food that they enjoy. Otherwise, you're never going to feel satisfied, never. And you will always be looking for that thing that is going to satisfy your tastebuds. Right. And you will end up over eating. So it's sustainable because you enjoy it. You love the food that you're eating. It meets your lifestyle goals, right? Like some people have tons of time to food prep, some do not. So like food, like you like the food, it meets your lifestyle goals. And it makes you feel good in your body.

Philip Pape 12:15

Yeah, I want to unpack all this because I'm just resonating with so much here both personally and with clients. You went through a process of experimentation. And even though even though we could easily dismiss, you know, named diets, and people do that all the time, we go to extremes, right of either these are all terrible, or the other extreme of everything's intuitive. And you don't need any guidance whatsoever. You like me, I went through many of those diets? And I'm glad I did. Because they teach you about what you like, and don't they broke your sugar addiction. It sounds like to some extent, yeah. And there are definitely some benefits of cutting things out. But it wasn't the process of cutting them out. It was you discovering what works for you. And then, you know, for you it was sustainable. So I really love that. And you you realize that, hey, I need to perform now. So maybe I need carbs back in because that's not working for me. That's That's amazing, Kate, because that's what we talk about all the time is tracking is not for everyone, right? specific foods aren't for everyone. And you've got to find what works for you. So that's really great message. The protein I love how you throw the target out there that one gram per pound. We all know that. That's like the magic number we have to hit. Okay, so I'm, I'm going on a lot here. But the healthy dietary pattern and what works for you sound like the key messages here.

Kate Jaramillo 13:31

Yeah, and the food that you like,

Philip Pape 13:33

right, like and the food that

Kate Jaramillo 13:36

I remember somebody, someone in our family, helped my husband's family had like, he wanted to work with me on keto. And I'm looking at all this foods, right and also what he has access to. And it was mostly carbs, right? He was eating lots of like oedipa and rice and beans and things like that. And as I'm going through this with him, and I'm asking him a lot of questions like would you be willing to not eat this? Or would you be willing to make your plate look like this? It came down to No, right? So it's like, okay, what could we right? So like, what could we fill your plate with? Where we're adding in like things that we we are really going to fuel you and help your whole body become healthier? Yes. And that you like and what can we kind of crowd out not eliminate? But what what can we just crowd out a little bit. And what we found there was he was still able to put in rice and beans ended up and like just leaner cuts of protein and making sure that we had vegetables. So what he originally came to me for we didn't do at all because he never would have looked truly and I say this was massive love but he never would have been able to follow like a traditional ketogenic lifestyle approach right when setting them up for failure.

Philip Pape 14:51

Right. Yeah, the crowding out is a huge thing. I found that as well with protein. It was a pleasant side effect when you try to get 150 grams of protein that you start eating a lot more whole foods just because you can't help it comes from animals and plants. And it's hard to find that and packaged and processed foods, right? Yeah. So, okay, why don't we have so much on my plate for this. Or if you really love things like desserts or alcohol, or whatever you plan it in, you work it into your diet. You mentioned food making you feel good, too. It's funny, because there's a, I'm actually coaching a teenager as one of my clients. And we're working on just habits, you know, not like tracking weight or anything. And, you know, one of her wins was, now when I eat such and such, it just doesn't make me feel good, because she has transitioned into the things that make her feel good, right. So a lot of people can resonate with that. And maybe if you're listening and listening to Kate, if what you eat kind of makes you feel the same all the time, but you haven't met your goals. When you start to transition to a different dietary pattern, you might start feeling better, and then realizing those things, were keeping you kind of sluggish and not feeling great on a continual basis. Do you agree with that?

Kate Jaramillo 16:05

Yeah, I totally do. And that really hits home with me, because I have I have three daughters and the son like my son is youngest. He's the baby. And I always am very conscious of how I talk about food. Like I don't, I used to call for food, good, bad, crap, junk, you know, and those things and Yeah, and like, that is so like, disempowering for my daughters. And I don't want them to think of food that way. So we've transitioned into calling certain things like always food and sometimes food, we do have a never food and it's faster. If something if like, you know, there was something really fun, that was our only option, it's our only option, but

Philip Pape 16:50

you are the parent, you know, you can.

Kate Jaramillo 16:52

No, and it truly is like another food for us. Like if we were like stranded and we needed something to eat, maybe. But I'd probably pack it something anyway. But so and they're, they're great. They're totally on board with that. And they've been able to feel into their bodies a bit more to love to what you said about how food, like just noticing how food makes you feel like if you're sluggish. And if this is your like, if this is how you're feeling a lot of the time. I think that so many people are used to feeling bad. That it's just like it's their normal. Yeah, that's right, but it's still not natural. Like we are not built to be like slow and sluggish and brain farty and all the things like we're truly built to like, perform and run and jump. Yeah, totally, and love and have these amazing conversations with people. So if those are things that you cannot experience, most of the days, then yeah, it's time to take a look at what you're putting in your body and your mind.

Philip Pape 17:55

Yeah, yeah, your body, your mind, you know, how you move. And I, you know, take control, right? There are things we use as excuses. And maybe maybe I want to transition here into talking about a specific demographic that we wanted to chat about, which is women over 40. Yeah. And many of my listeners are many of my clients, are there unique considerations for women over 40, because of dramatic changes in hormones, the pressures on their metabolism and muscle mass and bone density with age, maybe recovery from training, which I know can differ between men and women a bit. So how can women over 40 prioritize and optimize their health to create this this vibrant, you know, exciting new phase of life? Based on everything we're talking about?

Kate Jaramillo 18:37

Yeah. Okay. So one of the things for me has definitely been like, as I shared earlier protein, I'm really like, that has made such a huge difference in my life. And so I actually do a little bit of nutrition timing. So I strengthen conditioning train, and we can talk about this in a bit because I know your love how aligned you are, with the importance of like actually moving your body. So I do something conditioning training six days a week. And you know, I stretch and I recover, and it's all good. And I have a protein shake that I've it's like the same thing. But I have a protein shake after each of my training sessions, and I put collagen in my coffee. And for me, those have made a really huge difference. So I would say like you mentioned bone density, you mentioned recovery. Protein is really important for us. It just is for all of those reasons. And it's going to fill us up and it's going to mitigate our cravings, and it's going to help us reach our calorie goals. Because as I'm sure you know, from working with so many women, we have been sold on this deprivation dieting for so long, that we've been eating so little, and it's crashed on metabolisms. So you may have heard that, you know, eating like, Oh, my clients are losing weight because they're eating more. Yes. And they're eating or have have the proteins and the whole food sources. And in order to lose weight, they're still in a slight deficit. Right? That's so important because I'm like, oh, yeah, no, I'm gonna be like 500 calories. Now it's like, cool, but I want it because when you burn, but Right, like you still have to be in a deficit in order to lose weight, and you have to be eating enough. And if you're super confused about this, talk to Phillip,

Philip Pape 20:25

just real quick to break down kind of what you said about eating more and then not gaining or you are losing. Right? There's, there's not just the intake, there's the metabolism. And basically, what you're saying is, finally, you're eating enough of the right things in the right amounts that you've recovered and actually burning more calories a day. So now, your metabolic furnace has outpaced the additional food. It's kind of the best of both worlds at that point.

Kate Jaramillo 20:49

It truly is, oh my gosh, it truly is. And when you start like rubbing that up, and eating more, you're like, Oh, my God, like everything is so much better in my life, right? And your body finally feels safe, right? It finally feels safe to actually release weight versus hibernate. And just be like, Well, no, I have to store everything. Because I don't know when you're going to feed me again. And I'm really scared. Right. So that is a really important thing for women over 40 as our hormones are changing, I want to mention intermittent fasting, because it's not something that I do. And the reason I don't do it is because for me, for me personally, it slows me down. Like I noticed that if I stretch and this is really like, so intermittent fasting is really just time restricted eating right, and it's just giving our bodies time to rest and digest. For some for some people like a 16 eight window works really well 16 hours of not eating anything, and eight hours of eating things, right where you would eat all your calories and macronutrients in that time. That used to feel good for me. And then truly, all of a sudden, it stopped feeling good for me, and I started feeling cold and sluggish. And those are signs that your thyroid is slowing down, okay, like, ladies, when we hit like 40 Plus, things are moving around, things are changing, Don't f with your thyroid, it controls lots and lots of like hormones and functions and things that make you like energized or not, and things that affect your metabolism. So if you have been restricting your eating and you're feeling tired and sluggish and cold, you got to eat, okay, you need to eat a little bit more frequently. I have worked with other female clients who swear by fasting, and I noticed that these women are also very inflamed. So it could be from an autoimmune condition. It could be that they are like highly insulin resistant, which is like, we can call it pre diabetic or diabetic type two. So these are just things to like look out for once you hit that 40 plus mark when things start to change in your body. If you're noticing that your bones and your your your joints are aching, you're dealing with weight loss resistance, and you can't pinpoint it, your doctor tells you that your blood sugar is really high. If your triglycerides are really high, doing a bit of time restricted eating may work great for you. However, if you have been doing this, and you're feeling like I was failing, that's not going to work for you. Right, like that's simply not going to work. So more protein, eating enough to support your body. All really important moving, moving, picking up heavy things, we're not gonna get bulky like that just like but moving and doing strength training, resistance training, picking up heavy things. So you mentioned in my intro, like I coach elementary cheerleading, I like they are constantly like their shoelaces are coming on tight. Like so many of them are like, I don't know how to tie my shoe. I don't know how

Philip Pape 24:09

anyways, like, I don't know how to double.

Kate Jaramillo 24:13

No. And so like, I think about this all the time, like I crouched down really low. And I'm like in this deep squat tying their shoe and I'm standing right back up and every time I do it truly every time which is multiple times a chair practice. I'm thinking to myself how grateful I am for a body that is So functionally fit in my 40s

Philip Pape 24:35

Yeah, no, I love that. I do want to get into strength training. I just want to rewind a second and talk about some of the other things you mentioned. I think the the protein is not in dispute, although people could be listening for the first time and wondering, wow, I really need that much protein and that's that's interesting. I didn't know you know, mitigating cravings and all that. But you talked about time restricted feeding and feeling cold, which that's pretty cool. I hadn't hadn't heard that before. It makes sense. So I know when I'm when I'm bulking and eating more, I just feel hot more often. Yeah, my wife who eats less just feels colder. So that's a really cool signal. And the other thing is just more generally, the thing you've been doing in your 20s and 30s, may stop working. And don't don't take for granted that, you know, your body is always changing. This goes for men too, but women especially, and try something new, right? I lean gained for like eight years doing intermittent fasting and fasted training. And I was doubly making the argument that I'm fine, and I perform fine, but I know because when I got off of it, my lifts all went way up. And I felt better that I should have not been doing for all those years, you know? Yeah. So just just think, keep that in mind what Kate's saying and try some different things. If you don't intermittent fast, and you're struggling in some way, could be a tool to try at the same, you know, same way. So really cool stuff, Kate, let's get into strain training. You know, that it's pretty much a requirement of working with me, for my clients that they have to not already be doing it. But a lot of them start with me. And I know you're an advocate of the whole body wellness, that we've just been touching on quite a bit. So I want to hear your take on the balance between nutrition and strength training. You know, we know nothing is black and white. There's not like it's at 20 in this net. Like, what do you think of the balance there?

Kate Jaramillo 26:20

I mean, I think it's, I think it's equally balanced? I truly do. I really feel like there's such a focus, we look at nutrition on what like what to eat, to lose weight, instead of what to wait, what to eat, to be healthy, how to move to be healthy, how to live to be healthy. And I've worked with people who have lost weight, and they've looked like skinny fat, there's been nothing else on them. And we don't we don't want to feel that way. And we actually put ourselves at risk for injury. And ladies, let me tell you something, the more muscle you have, where you can eat. It's really like the more your body just it needs, right? The more calories your body needs to just like function because your muscle is burning those calories, like you mentioned, when you were bulking, you're eating a lot. You're feeling really odd, like all the time. That's absolutely true. Yeah. And, okay, so when I have, like, I have lots of babies, I have nursed them all. And I've been one of those women, there's like 20% of women who, like they have like a light, we have a layer of like insulation right around that spare tire area that no one loves. And it in when you're nursing, it actually doesn't go away. It's like there as a reserve for your baby. And that was me forever and ever. And I just I was so frustrated, because I was like, oh my god, I'm like, eating really well. I'm moving. I'm like, doing ab exercises and training all around the places that I should be training like, what's up? Why don't want to have a six. Right? And it was because of that. Now, like, I have been strength and conditioning training for six days a week for like, two and a half years. And now I'm just starting to see, like that abdominal definition. So it's been such a lesson in patience for me. And doing the things that like it just celebrating my body all the time and what I'm capable of. And I feel like there's truly nothing more empowering than picking up something having been like, Oh, this is like lighter than it was yesterday. or lighter than it was you know, two weeks ago. Oh, wait, my like, my heavier dumbbells aren't feeling as heavy anymore. Like, let me size up. What a great way to like celebrate yourself and to like, buy yourself new weights. I feel like I love love, love that. And just like we look for bounces in our nutrition, we are looking for like ways to balance our workouts Right? Like we wouldn't do, or I wouldn't recommend doing, like, all cardio all the time. Right? Like that strength training, that resistance training, the thing that's building our muscles and ladies, which we need to protect our bones, as we're getting older. Yes. And like if we want to roll around to like play with our grandkids or run a marathon or just be able to travel the world and walk by foot and explore like those little, you know, little alleyways and all of the things. We have to get ourselves physically fit enough to do that. And the way that we're going to do that is a combination of what we're putting in our body and how we are moving.

Philip Pape 29:39

Hey, this is Philip Pape. And if you feel like you've put in effort to improve your health and fitness but aren't getting results, I invite you to apply for a one on one coaching to make real progress and get the body you desire. We'll work together to figure out what's missing so you can look better, perform better and feel better. Just go to wits & weights.com/coaching to learn about my program and Apply today. Now back to the episode. Ah, dude, you just made such a great picture for everyone of how strength increases your capability and your longevity and your ability to enjoy life and pick up your kids. And like you said, you just feel stronger and more capable and empowered. And you're so right, because I mean, I have, I've learned more about being a coach about the other sex than I ever have in my life from just viewed of when it comes to how empowering strength training can be, really, to the point where you may have once you know, obsessed over or worried a lot about your weight, and now it almost becomes an afterthought, because now you're worried about your lifts, are you worried about you know, your, your, how you feel in your clothes, and all these other things. So, yeah, it's a great message very positive.

Kate Jaramillo 30:50

And you start to like, you start to focus on different parts of your body, versus, like, how it looks, which we all have levels of vanity, okay, let's just use your hair, like we want to look a certain way. However, like when we are training our bodies like that, and we're doing it consistently, and we're feeling really good and confident, it changes what we look at, it changes what we zoom in on when we're standing in front of the mirror naked, right? Like, where we sometimes will zoom in on like, the love handles or wobbly bits, then we start to look at like our calf muscles, and our back and our biceps. And we're just like, Damn, girl, you look good.

Philip Pape 31:26

Now do you get also let me ask for the female perspective. You know, when I get lean, I feel I feel great. And then as I start to put on weight building, you know, you start to get a little softer, because you have to tap the muscle. But you don't necessarily care in the neck. Like it's not a negative thing. You see that as this is contributing toward what's going to get revealed in the next fat loss phase. I don't know if you go through that. Or if it's like, you're never quite enjoying being a little bit extra heavy. You know,

Kate Jaramillo 31:54

I don't know that I ever really enjoy being extra heavier. However, I think my mindset has shifted in. I won't always look like this. I know how to look like this.

Philip Pape 32:04

Right? You can control it. Yes. That's huge.

Kate Jaramillo 32:08

Yeah, like, Yeah, I think like never feeling out of control. Never feeling out of this is actually, as I'm talking about this out loud. It's a really big deal. Like, I don't feel out of control in my body anymore. At all.

Philip Pape 32:21

Wonderful. Yeah. That's a great message. Yeah, so mindset, there's a whole topic we can dive into as well. Yeah. Because the mind is maybe the most powerful tool we have in this whole game of life, right. And we could use it to our advantage, we could create results. In the kitchen, in the gym and life, whatever we're talking about. I guess one of the most valuable lessons that I've learned having you as a coach for my business, are around what holds people back. And it's rarely like it's rarely what they know. Right? The things like consistency, accountability, self love, aspiration, those are the things that hold people back, right? It's all up, here's where I'm going. So how do we unleash that power of our mind? If we haven't already kind of gotten into that? To unleash our results?

Kate Jaramillo 33:11

Yeah, so I know, you know, this, and I love to talk about this. But there's a framework where you can really monitor what, like what's going on in your brain. So it's the acronym is called steer situation, thought, emotion, action result, a situation is always, it just always exists, right? A situation is often something that we can't control, it just is. And so sometimes we have to create neutrality around the situation to not feel like a victim or feel out of control. Okay? And sometimes we're put in situations that are not our fault. Like if somebody if we're driving a car and another car hits us, and we can't, you know, we broke our leg and we can't move for a little while. Okay, like that's an unwanted situation. But there are still things that are within our control, right? So we never can we don't, there's never a time that we have to look at this and say, and think there's nothing I can do. I'm Hope, like, there's, there's nothing I can do. I can't do anything. I'm a victim. Everything is bad, because the emotion there is helplessness. And I actually think that that is one of the lowest emotions that we can actually feel. And especially when it comes to looking at our health and our weight. Sometimes like, we look at our situation and the, you know, I missed a workout where I ate that sleeve of Oreos. That is a situation the Oreos existed and you ate asleep of it. So your thought can either be I suck, I'm a failure. I'm never going to lose weight and then your emotion is again like sadness, frustration, hopelessness, your action might be to eat another sleeve of Oreos, because you're in that effort moment like nothing's going to change and the result is you are further away from your goal than you ever were before. Or the situation is that you ate a sleeve of Oreos. And then your thought could be, that might not have been my best decision is probably going to move me further away from my goals. However, I can't change it, I'm going to do better, I'm going to make a choice to do better. And then your emotion could potentially become curiosity, how can I how can I do better tomorrow? How can I do better in my next meal with my next choice, and then that action that that emotion inspires is like, doing better another choice, a better choice. And the result is that you get one step closer to your goal, right? So I believe that everything is powered by the mind, whether you are whatever choices that you're making to eat, how you choose to move your body, how you what time you choose to go to bed, what you choose to fill your mind with, before you go to bed, what you choose to fill your mind with day to day, right, like, you could be in a situation I know many of my clients have been, when they've been around people who will say to them, you're just not going to lose weight. I mean, after 40, it's just not possible, right? Like, oh, after menopause, you could just forget it, you're gonna smell a french fry and gain 15 pounds, right. And if you choose to believe that, then your actions and your results will create exactly what you're choosing to believe. Your brain will dictate everything else that happens. Or you could hear that and say, that's not true for me, right? Like, nothing's gone wrong here. And this isn't true for me, this is my body, this is how old I am. And this is what's happening with my hormones. And once you you can even create that like neutrality around like, this is going on with my hormones, and I'm going to choose to not make it a problem. So because I'm choosing not to make it a problem, I still feel hopeful. So the actions that I will take is, I'm going to eat my protein, vegetables and fruits, I'm going to move my body and I'm gonna pick up heavy things. And the result that I'm going to be getting is I'm going to be able to pick scoop up my kids, and walk all around Paris, and see everything that I want to see and fill their passport full of stamps, and have the best life that I could ever imagine.

Philip Pape 37:17

Can you You're such a great storyteller. And I love this framework. No, I love it. I've heard you say it several times before. And it's great to get it drilled back in because it's it's very clear. And it allows people to see from one end to the other how this works. You know, I imagine that people that have, let's say failed over and over, through their endeavors get conditioned to where it's harder and harder to pull out of that first step of the situation into the positive thought. And you have to at some point, have that conscious, you know, choice to do that, like you said, and this is where your support structure is important, as you mentioned, or not having the negative people around you that don't support you. And where coaches can help where it really anybody can help. So I love that it's like a stoic philosophy. I love the stoics of you know, control what you can and what you can't. So what you know, yeah, yeah, so the steer model, everybody situation thought, emotion Action Result. Awesome. Awesome. Yeah. Cool. So I know, some of my listeners are nutrition coaches like me, they probably love to hear some of your strategies for being successful as an online coach. I've already learned a ton from you and the team at beyond macro. So I'm kind of digging a little bit deep for these on the client in the business side. So the first one is just how can we balance the need for the individualized plans with standard evidence based guidelines. So not even the Keto and all the other things, but just things that we we know on average, are correct, quote, unquote, correct, like the one gram per pound of protein. But a client comes along that it just for whatever reason, it's not for them?

Kate Jaramillo 38:52

Yeah. So I think like, we always have to just be willing, you've mentioned earlier that we are always like, we're experimenting, we're our own experiments. So I think as nutrition coaches, we want to attract clients who are willing to experiment on themselves. And I feel like that's really important to communicate and our messaging that just like, there's just there's simply no one size fits all approach. Like you and I are talking about protein and how important it is. And I also know that some people with severe kidney issues that are prone to kidney stones and things like that do much better on a plant based diet with much less protein, right? So just it's we as nutrition coaches need to be very open to the possibility that what we believe that we know is true, isn't true for every client, and we have to be willing to be wrong and communicate that to our client as well. Like, experiment together and learn together. One of my mentors, says, I haven't wrapped my brain around this completely yet, right? But she says, I love to fail. I will I have to fail. I don't love to fail, I actually hate to lose a to lose even more than I love to win, I hate to lose. But I see where she's coming from right? She loves to fail, because she loves to learn. So like, if we are working with a client who we know like, like, why are they not wrapping their heads around one gram of protein per body? Why is this not working for them? Right, we have to be willing to ask those four questions and figure out what it is. Are they open to getting a blood panel done? Are Are they are we qualified to read their blood panel? Right? And some of us aren't? I'm not right. Like, I would have their their GP, like read their bloodwork, and then tell me, you know what's going on with them. I've worked with clients who have in conjunction with their GP, I've had somebody that has stage four metastatic breast cancer, right, and like, and she's had it for 25 years. And we've worked together in conjunction with her doctor, right. And a lot of the things that we know haven't worked,

Philip Pape 40:57

don't work. Yeah, and actually just similar to that I know, a hormone specialist, and she's just awesome at hormones. She's like, a coach is awesome hormones. And I'm not worried about competing with her because she's good at that. And I do what I do. We send people to each other. Yeah. You know, do it anyway, keep going,

Kate Jaramillo 41:13

Oh, no, I'm just gonna say like, I have zero ego, or around my scope of practice. And I'm so willing to learn with each client. And I have like, at this point, in my career, I've coached hundreds of people, and not a single one of them has been exactly the same. Not a single

Philip Pape 41:27

one. Yep. Yeah. Ya know, that we learn together is is amazing, because there are some coaches, I think, probably think there's like a sphere of knowledge, you know, and then once you have that knowledge, you just kind of apply it. And, you know, I come right out with clients. And like, look, I don't know this, or here's what I think should work. And then when we try it, and nothing works exactly as I planned, you know, you could take the approach in the steer model of having a negative emotion, you know, a negative thought of, well, maybe I'm just not, you know, following the right information, or what I know is wrong, or, Hey, they just might be an outlier, or there might be something else going on. And this is our opportunity to diagnose and investigate with the other data we have.

Kate Jaramillo 42:10

Yeah. And there's things sometimes that come up that like, it's so difficult for a client to actually be able to remedy it. So I did like toxicity and detox certification, and I help them like, right, right, their certification, and learning about like amalgam fillings and things like that, like, can I just tell you something, it is freaking expensive to get your amalgam fillings, like removed, like, right, like, super expensive. So if we are working with a client who comes up with like, they're like weight loss resistant, because their body is filled with toxins and things like that. And they have amalgam fillings, you're like, hey, you can get this removed, it's gonna cost you like, 10, some grand, right? Like, and it's not something that they can do, that we as coaches have to figure out. Okay, like, what, what else can we do? Like, what are some other words, how else can we support client and removing toxins? Or just eating organic foods? Or, you know, like, what else? Can you help them do? Yeah,

Philip Pape 43:08

exactly. Or maybe even if they're a little bit resistant to change in certain areas, like we talked about the non negotiables, non negotiables before, or maybe they don't have access to certain gym equipment, whatever you write, you have to be kind of savvy enough to work with them and figure out another way that might be not 100% and might be 95%. Optimal or 90%. Optimal. Yeah, exactly.

Kate Jaramillo 43:31

But like, that is so much better than whatever it is that they were doing before.

Philip Pape 43:35

Yes. It's all relative, for sure. Now, here's another one I have for you. What about clients who have disordered eating habits, and I mean, put them in their history, like, you know, a lot of us don't, wouldn't necessarily work with somebody who needs medical attention at the moment. But in the past, which is not uncommon, especially for women, I think, and body image concerns, right? Like, for example, I asked my clients to give me progress photos right at the beginning. And it's a red flag if they're hesitant, because that brings up some potential body image challenges and maybe a different approach we have to take. So maybe they're fixated on the scale. Maybe they can't, they don't like taking photos, or they delegate disorder. What how would you handle that?

Kate Jaramillo 44:15

Yeah. So like he said, I think a lot of women have I know, I have, I mean, like, I feel like so many of us have had some sort of disordered eating like, right if we have points, or even macros, or whatever it's been, right. And so it's those those thoughts of like, failing, or I can only eat so much, oh my gosh, like there's not enough or there's too much. So I think that that's really where that thought work comes in. And sometimes we won't be able to help a client find like the thought that's going to like just make them feel great about everything. And even though they're not losing any weight, really happy about the state of their body and we don't always have to, like reach for happiness and contentment. Sometimes it's just being able to get to The thought that feels that makes them feel okay. Just okay. Right. And so again, circumstance, situation like skill is not moving skills actually even going up. Okay? So your thought used to be, I'm feeling the world is ending, nothing's working, everything's broken. What if just the thought can be, it's working, nothing's gone wrong here, nothing's gone wrong here. This is part of the process. This is just part of me learning more about what's going to work for my body eventually, nothing's gone wrong, careless. And sometimes that's the most empowering thought that we can give someone who is really struggling with negative self image or like a bit of disordered eating. And we as coaches also have to, if we do notice that it's getting to a point where they need a medical intervention to be able to help our client find that help.

Philip Pape 46:02

Okay, that is great advice. Kate. I want to respect your time, maybe just a few more questions here. Yeah. So what's the best way to measure the success of your business or your nutrition coaching program specifically? So you can always be improving?

Kate Jaramillo 46:18

Yeah, well, so I look at this and go what, what is success? Like? What does it mean for each person, as I have grown in my business and evolved as an entrepreneur, I will really look at my success as what's happening, like, how I'm balancing my work and my life. I have four children at different stages, like ages, you know, three, 811, and 15. So their need for me, really varies like, right, my younger ones really need me for like, like feeding them, and just being able to, like, depend on me, for all these lifestyle, my older ones, have a really big need for me emotionally. So being able to be fully present with them, is always going to be a huge one for me, with my clients I look at are like, how are they feeling? Are they are they making money in their businesses? Are they growing with their clients are their clients happy? Like I look at business in general, especially as you're growing as a nutrition coach, there are these four phases, right, and it is truly, they're happening all the time. But we can't move on. Until we've we've done the thing in each phase. And phase one is really attraction. And this is where you start building your audience. And then once your audience is built, you're actually generating leads from that audience and audience building a lead generation can actually be two different things, because you build and then you're generating leads from them. That's always happening, always happening, even when you become a waitlisted. Coach. Then the second, the second phase is your offer, like getting really clear on how you can make an offer, or to help someone and what that will look, in your experience. If you're brand new, starting out, you may not know this, but in your experience, how long, it could take a person who has been in a similar position to get their desired outcome, right, like making those offers to help. And then you know that the third phase is enrolling them and enrolling clients consistently, being able to have a sales conversation that just coaches a client to make a decision, right, because I find that so many people who are looking for to improve their health or to make a change in their health can be resistant to making a decision or any commitment. So just being able to coach them to a yes or no, is such a loving thing to do. And obviously, we want to hopefully coach them to an enrollment. And then the fourth phase is fulfillment, right? And that's where we are just delivering an amazing clients variance where our clients are really happy. So when we're coaching our nutrition coaching clients, I look at how they're moving in what they're doing in those four phases. I care a lot about the fulfillment side, because I want to make sure that their clients are experiencing a transformation, a breakthrough. Coaching is a miracle. And when you can live in a breakthrough, god, oh my god, it's life changing. Right? We

Philip Pape 49:19

do this? Yeah.

Kate Jaramillo 49:19

That's why we do this exactly. Like, what if, what if none of our like, money didn't depend on any of this? Like, what if, like, it was a volunteer role, but if we didn't put any pressure on ourselves, and we just were on a mission, to allow people to receive the miracle of coaching and live in breakthrough? What would that change for us, right? So when we focus on that, and fulfillment, and allow like our clients to experience breakthrough and live in the miracle of coaching, then like that, we are retaining them as clients. We are getting referrals, our businesses are growing. That's what I look for when We're coaching clients and helping them determine their own success. It's not always like dollar related and number of clients related for some it is. But that comes when we are coaching when we are just the best coach for our clients.

Philip Pape 50:16

Sure, that's that's a lagging indicator. Yeah, I agree. I, one thing that turns me off the most about this industry is the business coaches who are just selling their programs based on how many K dollars you're gonna make per month, you know, it's just turns me off, just like, I think a client nutrition coaching client is turned off often by the sleazy tactics of many coaches. Hopefully, there's a lot more great coaches out there that we're all trying to develop, and you are trying to develop a couple of things. You mentioned, the coaching a client to make the decision, you're effectively how you're effectively testing your skills as a coach in that process before they even become your client. Right. So it should have that natural fit, and then delivering the amazing experience. You're right, that ultimately is what it's all about, because that will you know, leads to this virtuous cycle. So amazing people listening to this, who are thinking of getting into it, I think, you know, Kate's, and experts been doing this for years and is just incredible. And you have a great approach to it as well. So all right, so the penultimate question I like to ask all guests is what one question Did you wish I had asked and what is your answer?

Kate Jaramillo 51:22

Okay, what what I spent my day to day doing eating and living right. So cuz I love this. I love a bit of a behind the scenes peek at like, how nutrition coaches are actually like, what we're doing, like what we do, how we spend our day to day. So I typically wake up at about 5am I work out downstairs at home, I haven't. Like I've not gone to the gym since I stopped working in them. As is an instructor. So I love being able to walk downstairs, I get a workout in then I'll feed my animals. And then I work on feeding the kids. So I I cook for my kids every single meal, right? Like they always have a hot breakfast. They always have lunch, they always have dinner, right? So I'm preparing meals for everyone. Then like, I'll make my coffee and I have a protein shake. I'm sitting I'm working on my computer. I'm having a lot of zoom calls and discussions. I always I am really blessed that I work from home because I can make a fresh lunch every day. And listen like Arline, like super simple. I wrote three cookbooks. So I do love recipes. But I don't follow them anymore. I just don't like I just find that like we eat a lot of I like look for different deals and different proteins each week and went great. That sounds good. I know how to make that up. Yeah, let me make that with like a different vegetable. And like we usually have tons of different fruits to eat. And then same thing at dinnertime, my husband actually doesn't eat dinner, because he has like an issue with his esophagus that it doesn't like the flap isn't like really close. So we used to get really bad acid reflux cannot eat past a certain time. So he's like a grazer in the evening. So I really have to make sure that there's fresh fruit available for him. Otherwise, he will go straight for like, plantain chips or something does not need to be like eating a bunch of

Philip Pape 53:19

by the way, we should talk about that throat issue because I have something similar and maybe after we're done recording chat about that.

Kate Jaramillo 53:26

Yeah. Oh my gosh, it's so interesting. Yeah. And then so make the kids dinner. Sometimes I'm coaching cheerleading, and then we all just like hang out and I'm helping them with a bit unsuccessfully like with homework. Oh, yeah. And then my kids are in bed at like eight and I'm in bed by like nine and that's my day and I'm so happy with this lifestyle. I remember being so much younger and like it was a Friday night it was like midnight I'm like this is when we go out because this is when like nobody goes up before midnight. Yeah. Now like oh my gosh, like like when I can be home from picking up all the kids activities and stuff and like in my pajamas by five is like the best

Philip Pape 54:13

party days are over it's okay you know life life has a different priorities now. So it's crazy. It's really a balanced schedule you have and handling the four kids of all different ages because I have two girls that are really close in age so we're kind of going along with their phase of life for you here just rotating through babies okay, what animals do you have by the way?

Kate Jaramillo 54:37

So we have two dogs a cat and like a bunch of fish we used to have this really cool frog that would like some all around the fish tank I think it was actually eating some of the fish because it would really disappear and he like had this very tragic ending I think he like jumped out of the tank macadam but like Yeah, so we have Yeah, like the dogs and the cats and like you're in Miami boy. So you know like I have Random outside pets that was paced back and forth early like they like sit and stare at me. I'm like,

Philip Pape 55:10

oh, no, I hear you. Now we have bears and raccoons and stuff up here.

Kate Jaramillo 55:14

Listen, I would rather have the fuzzy things. Yeah, right.

Philip Pape 55:17

Yeah. As long as they don't eat all your chickens like they did with ours last spring. Yeah. Anyway, all right. So Kate, it's been a lot of fun. I could talk to you forever. But I want to ask you the last question, Where can listeners find out about you and your work?

Kate Jaramillo 55:31

So the best way to like find follow and connect with me is in the online nutrition coach community. I'm in there all the time. I'm popping in like usually daily, just chatting with people. And like, if you're not a nutrition coach, and you just like, feel like you want to chat with me. You can find me on my personal Facebook page. Like I literally do respond to all messages. And it's just keep they had a meal. And how am I gonna still like Jeremy Hello. It's like Smith in Colombia. There you

Philip Pape 55:59

go knows people will find you no worries. And, you know, I'm sure I talk about you a lot with folks, especially my fellow coaches. But it's been a pleasure game. Really, it has been, we could definitely do it again with a million other topics. So thank you again for

Philip Pape 56:14

coming on.

Kate Jaramillo 56:15

Awesome. Thank you.

Philip Pape 56:18

Thanks for listening to the show. Before you go, I have a quick favor to ask. If you enjoy the podcast, let me know by leaving a five star review in Apple podcasts and telling others about the show. Thanks again for joining me Philip Pape in this episode of Wits & Weights. I'll see you next time and stay strong.

Philip Pape 3/21/23 Philip Pape 3/21/23

Ep 54: What You REALLY Need to Transform Your Body and Succeed in Life with Kevin Palmieri

What is the meaning of self-improvement and how it applies to health and fitness, and what do you need to achieve your goals? We explore whether struggle is necessary for progress and success, and what role confidence plays in our fitness journey. How do you find your purpose? What is the importance of self-love, emotion, and vulnerability in self-improvement? We also dive into the significance of emotional intelligence and self-awareness in self-improvement and whether fear can be a positive tool.

My guest today is Kevin Palmieri, the founder and co-host of the Next Level University podcast and Podcast Growth University.

Early in his life, Kevin found “success”, but after a brush with suicide he realized he wasn’t living a life he truly wanted. He became passionate about self-improvement and decided to make it his purpose in life to impact as many people as possible by becoming a role model podcaster and speaker.

His podcast is now one of the top 100 with over 1000 episodes and listened in over 125 countries, and he’s taken his life to the next level and achieved both personal and professional success.

You’ll learn all about:

Kevin’s from early success to rock bottom to his “no-BS approach to holistic self-improvement”
Defining self-improvement and its application to health and fitness
The importance of consistency in self-improvement
Is struggle necessary for progress and success?
What is confidence and how can someone become more confident in their fitness journey?
How to find your purpose (your “why”)
The role of self-love, emotion, and vulnerability in self-improvement
The importance of emotional intelligence and self-awareness in self-improvement
Kevin’s biggest

Episode resources:

Find the Next Level University podcast, coaching, speaking, and group coaching at Kevin's website - nextleveluniverse.com
Next Level University on YouTube here
Free course - Next Level 5 to Thrive
Find Kevin on Instagram - @neverquitkid
Watch the episode on video here

👉 If you want to learn more about lifting and nutrition, reach out to Philip:

IG: https://www.instagram.com/witsandweights/
Email: philip@witsandweights.com

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Transcript

Philip Pape 00:08

Welcome to the Wits & Weights podcast, where we discuss getting strong and healthy with strength training and sustainable nutrition. I'm your host, Philip Pape. And in each episode, we examine strategies to help you achieve physical self mastery through a healthy skepticism of the fitness industry, and a commitment to consistent nutrition and training for sustainable results.

Philip Pape 00:31

Welcome to another episode of Wits & Weights. My guest today Kevin Palmieri is the founder and co host of the next level University podcast, make sure to subscribe. Early in his life, Kevin found, quote unquote, success. But after a brush was suicide, he realized he wasn't living a life he truly wanted. He became passionate about self improvement, and decided to make it his purpose in life to impact as many people as possible by becoming a role model podcaster and speaker, his podcast is now one of the top 100 With get this over 1100 episodes and counting, listened to in over 125 countries. And He's taken his life to the next level and achieved both personal and professional success. And that's why we have him on the show today. Kevin, thank you for coming on. I appreciate you having me. Thank you for the wonderful introduction, my goal is always to at least meet that expectation. So that'll be my goal today. And likewise, and I want to meet your level of energy. So let's just jump right and how you how you got here today. Tell us about your journey from early success to rock bottom to what you now call your no BS approach to holistic self improvement. I always start at the very beginning, because I think context is important. And oftentimes the message is only as important as the understanding of the messenger. So I was raised in a single parent household, I was raised by my mom and my grandmother. And I didn't know my dad, and I didn't meet my dad until I was 27. And I think in many ways that transformed me and molded me into who I am today. But it definitely altered my childhood in the way I showed up as a child. I know this, Phil, I don't know much. But I do know that when I was young, I didn't want to do what everybody else wanted to do. So I remember even in grade school, knowing that I didn't want to go to college, I didn't want to do what everybody else was going to do. For some reason, I have always been trying to take a different path. So my childhood was fairly normal. I used to ride my bike around with my friends, I played baseball, we'd go watch the little league games, under the lights it was it was fairly normal. But after high school, that's when things started to get a little bit different because all my friends went away to college. But I stayed back in the town that I was raised in and I was pumping gas at the local gas station. And I did that for a few years, I ended up being a personal trainer for a time, I drove a truck and a forklift. I worked in construction, I joined the Volunteer Fire Academy, I did many, many, many different things, never had any clue what I wanted to do. So I eventually got this unique opportunity in an industry called weatherization. All that means is we go into buildings, and we make them more energy efficient. So just imagine me and your school, your teacher, I come in, and we're working on the windows, the doors, the attic, above the ceiling, stuff like that. Beautiful part of that is since I was working on state owned buildings, I was getting paid anywhere from 60 to $120 an hour, which for me, no college degree, I have made it this is it, I found my thing. I'm gonna do this forever. So if you were to look at me when I was 25, you would see a young man who had just won a bodybuilding show. So I was quite literally in the best shape of my life. My girlfriend was a model, I had a sports car, I had a high paying job, new apartment, all the trappings of success. But I was very unfulfilled. I was very insecure. I was not passionate about much. I didn't understand purpose. I just wasn't excited for life. That's that's in a nutshell. One day, my girlfriend came to me. And she was excited for life. And she knew her purpose. And she knew her mission. And she told me she wanted to move across the country from New Hampshire to California and chase her dreams. And in my scarcity and insecurity. I gave her every reason in the world why she shouldn't do it. And you can imagine how that conversation went. She ended up leaving me as she should have. And she chased her dreams and she moved across the country, which is truly truly wonderful for her. But I remember, I had to look in the mirror and say what is going on here? I just, I don't know. I feel like I just lost everything. I feel like the cloak of perception has been removed. And now I get to figure all this out. I started dipping my toe into self improvement but for some reason, and I'm sure we'll dig into it. But for some reason I said you know what, I gotta I gotta go make more money that's going to fix this is self improvement things great, but I need more money, more money, less problems. That's what I need. That's what I'm going to do more money, more money, less problems. So that next year, I said I'm going to make

Kevin Palmieri 05:00

Thanks, I'm gonna make $100,000 This year, I don't care what it takes, I'm going to do it. So I got a promotion at my company and I became a foreman, we got more contracts that year than we ever had. And most of them were on the road. So we worked a lot in New Jersey, which was like six hours from where I lived. So if you fast forward to the end of that year, I had been on the road for 10 months out of the 12 months, and every single week, working in a different state, sleeping in a different hotel, working out at a different gym, I was very consistent with my fitness back, even with the travel, which was great. But I was just burning the candle at both ends. But it didn't matter because I was making money. So we get to the end of the year, I have my final pay stub in hand, I opened it up, I made $100,000 at 26 with no college degree, awesome for all of five minutes. And then I have that moment of oh no, that didn't fix anything. The bank account looks good, that's awesome. There's definitely some financial certainty there, which I value, that's awesome. But all of the internal voids I had none of them went away. And honestly, some of them actually got worse, because I assumed that would fix all my problems. I realized in that moment that for most of my life, I lived unconsciously, the opposite of unconscious is hyper conscious. So I started a podcast called The Hyper conscious podcast. And I quite literally fell in love with podcasting. As I was falling out of love with my job, I reached the pinnacle, right, I made it to the top of the mountain, I'm not willing to climb another mountain here, I don't want to do this anymore. So I start calling out of my my place of work, I start showing up late, leaving the job site early. And I just want to do this podcasting thing, I've got the bug. And eventually it got to the point where I would have to be in New Jersey, which was six hours from where I lived 7am, Monday morning to start a job, I would sleep in my bed in Massachusetts from 9pm. Until midnight, I would get up drive six hours to the job site, I'd work an eight hour day on three hours of sleep. And then I would go to the gym after and it was just like, I don't care, I need to do this. I'm so home saying I can't be away any more than I have to be. And eventually it just got to the point where I just felt just past go stuck, trapped. I woke up in a hotel room in New Jersey at 550. In the morning, my alarm clock went off, I sat up, I slid to the edge of the bed, lacing up my work boots. And that morning, it was like there was 10 televisions on in my head at the same time. And every single one was on a different station. One is saying you're stuck here forever. I know you want to leave, but you will never get an opportunity as good as this one. If you do leave, what are your friends gonna think you make more money than any of your friends. If you do leave, what's your family going to think your family looks up to you and they're proud of you. You make more money than anybody in your family? And if you do leave, do you really think this podcast thing is going to be the train, we ride off into the sunset? And no, I did not think that was going to happen. And in that moment, I felt that if I was to take my life, I would take my problems with me. And that was what I was sitting with. I was sitting in this hotel room having that thought of, I don't think I want to do this anymore. And not just the job. I don't do any of this. Luckily, I have a very high quality circle. And great people around me I'm very, very blessed to have the people that I do. And I reached out to one of them who was just my friend at the time. He was now my business partner and the CEO of our company. And I explained what was going on. And I said hey, I'm having these feelings. I'm having these thoughts. I'm having these emotions. I don't know what to do, man, what do I do? And he said, Kev over the last couple of years, your awareness has changed a ton. Your habits have changed a ton. So much has changed about you but your environments have remained the same. I think it's time for you to change your environment. So I left that job three or four months later. And then I began the journey of being a very broke entrepreneur trying to figure out business and podcasting and speaking and coaching and all that. And I think that was probably, I think five years ago now. And here we are. Well. Okay.

Philip Pape 08:51

So yeah, so that was that was five years ago. Wow. So you know that this, this, this is a health and fitness podcast. But a lot of what you touched on are principles applicable to anything, right? You touched on self improvement. But the last thing you ended with with your personal story was changing your environment. You said, you know, everything else has been going. I don't wanna say well, right, because you obviously ended up in a very heavy, dark place. But I guess you knew you could make that kind of change and it took someone else, someone in your support structure. In fact, the person you weren't necessarily being to the girl who left you right at the time. You think of it that way to kind of snap you out of it and make you realize you have control the situation just took that level of I guess, support and accountability. I mean, maybe expand on that piece. I have a bunch of questions prepared, but I always go off on tangents. Expand on that piece about the support structure, both both sides of it both the importance of surrounding ourselves with that and the importance of us being that for other people. Yeah, it's I always say that. Imagine if I reached out to somebody who said Kev, nobody likes their job. Of course you're gonna not like your job.

Kevin Palmieri 10:00

I mean, that's par for the course, nobody really likes it. Give it the weekend, I'm sure Monday things will feel better. Like imagine if that's the advice I got, I don't know what would have happened, right. So I think with anything, and I know whether it's fitness, whether it's a dream, whether it's relationship, whether it's a business, whether it's posting on social media, whether you know it or not, the people around you are either accelerating your growth or slowing your growth down, they are either creating new opportunities for you, or they are holding you back from opportunities. And like I did with my girlfriend, I, my ex girlfriend, I gave her every reason in the world not to succeed. And she said, You know what, I will choose success over you. And she ended up going and she's doing her thing. I've been the anchor, and I've been the engine. So I very much understand and empathize with both ends. I think this is the important understanding. People do not give you advice based on your level of capabilities, they give you advice based on their level of capabilities, their limiting beliefs, their fears, their you know, whatever they're afraid to be judged by. And a lot of us take those and run and they assume it's our story, when in reality, it just isn't. So if you're the person, somebody reaches out to you, you got to pour into them. You got to, you have to want what's the best for somebody, regardless of yourself. But you also have to understand that when you're fielding advice from others, you might not be getting that you might be getting the scarce Don't leave me behind advice. Again, I've given that. So I understand very much. It's very important that you sit with the advice you're you're getting, because not not everybody is capable of pouring into your cup at the rate and at the level that you wish they were. And not everybody is capable, or as capable as you are. And that comes through time. And that comes through practice. Yeah. And that also brings to mind the I think you mentioned scarcity there. The abundance mentality, right? Through a growth mindset, the idea that it's not as the world's not a zero sum game, is it there's enough to go around. And in fact, if you surround yourself with people that are more skilled, more experienced, have been around more been through the struggles and kind of let them pour into that vessel you just mentioned, as opposed to saying, you know, I have mine, and I'm gonna keep it and I can't, you know, I can't surround myself with people better than me I need to be. It sounds like you're kind of tying into that same concept. Yeah, I think it's, it's so important to understand that just because somebody wins doesn't mean you can't, right. If I lift Philip and Philip wins, it doesn't mean I can't win. Right? And also, if you do win, I'll be more fulfilled if I helped you. But that's another thing, too, is like, how do you define success? And that's, that's, that's a deeper conversation. But yeah, yeah. So let's get into that a little bit, maybe in the context of physical self mastery, right, and self improvement, which are in your real wheelhouse. So you have this success early in life, maybe it wasn't the right kind of success. So and you alluded to self improvement, what exactly is that? Like? We maybe get philosophical here, but what is self improvement? And how does it then apply to health and fitness? Yeah, self improvement at the end of the day is you pouring into becoming a more evolved more, or with more potential human being, I think that's it. At the end of the day, it's investing in self. If you're, there's a show with Tim Allen and Jonathan Taylor Thomas, I think called Home Improvement, Home Improvement, what is Home Improvement, it's when you improve the value of your home. Self improvement is the same thing when you improve the value and quality and capability of self. Here's the interesting thing. When you pour into yourself, and you become more competent, and you raise your personal development setpoint, you also raise other things like your ability to practice self discipline, like your ability to become a more consistent human being. Your ability to not run from judgment is much your ability to do the hard but necessary things that you know, you will be grateful that you did in the future. And honestly, that's where the health fitness, whether it's the gym, or whatever it is you're doing. That's where that comes in. It's not easy, right? It's not it's not, it's not easy to get in better shape. It's not easy to be healthier, necessarily. And just because it's not easy does not mean it's not possible. But it's very hard to level up one area of your life if you haven't leveled up yourself first. So there's a lot of people out there that want to make a million dollars, but they don't have that million dollar mindset yet. Totally, that's fine. There's a lot of people who want to have a six pack of the body, but they don't have a six pack of the mind. And when you elevate yourself improvement, you elevate your competency. And the more competent you are, the higher likelihood you will succeed at different ventures. So when it comes to self improvement, you're just pouring into yourself, and that transfers over to you becoming more confident. And when you become more confident you try new things. It helps you with your self esteem your self worth, and then you'll double down and triple down on the stuff that makes you feel good. Oftentimes the stuff that the stuff that makes you feel good for the day doesn't feel good in the moment. And I think understand

Kevin Palmieri 15:00

Earning self improvement and studying self improvement that also helps you understand that there is no short term, anything really a value in the long run.

Philip Pape 15:07

Yeah, this reminds me a conversation I had with somebody recently about, you know, how we overcomplicate things. And sometimes we strip it down to the essence and focus on building some foundation, whatever it might be, it might be strength, for example, you build a foundation of strength, you find that you can run faster now, and you can go up the stairs more easily. And you can, you know, have more energy half the day, and it kind of cascades on itself. And what you're saying, is that concept of, you know, building pillars, I guess, in your life that spiraled themselves exponentially. And consistency, you touched on consistency, right? So I'm always hammering that message home. It's very important as a nutrition coach myself that clients embrace that kind of philosophy with small changes in Hey, behavior, and the concept of living as if you're your future self right? Self improvement, you know, thinking of the six pack having a six pack mind or the the other thing you mentioned, and falling in love with the process, right, not just the end goal. So what are what are some of your thoughts about consistency, specifically, why it's important, how we get it, and so on?

Kevin Palmieri 16:13

Yeah, I so we did a 10 pound in 10 week challenge recently, my business partner and I, because we were like, honestly, we've been we've been bulking for a bit here, we should probably lock it in and figure it out. So we said, What's the best way to do this? Accountability? We will say it on the podcast. And we'll do if it's if it gets said on the podcast, we'll do it. The interesting thing and the valuable thing and the best story for consistency is the first two days I gained weight and gain weight. When I started dieting. Imagine if I said, Nope, something's broken metabolisms off. This isn't for me, it's not possible. And then I stopped. The beautiful thing about consistency is it tells the truth eventually. And it's it takes the emotion out of things, right. When you do something consistently, when you do something on repeat, when you do it repeatedly, you start to see the different intricacies. And you start to see oh, okay, that's what happens when I do it this way. Let me try a little bit different the next day. Oh, that's what happens when I do it this way. So the importance of consistency is honestly, at the end of the day, if you can't do something for a month, you're most likely not going to get the results that you want. Right, and podcasting and business and whatever it may be. So I think a lot of us know that now. And we have that understanding, how can you be more consistent, number one, break things into sustainable bite sized things to start, one of the best habits you can have is the one that you actually do. One of the best diets there is for you is the one that's sustainable for you. Right, there's a reason we don't sign up to a gym, that's an hour away, it's not sustainable to get to, we'll sign up to one that's five minutes away, that's 24 hours, boom, we can do that consistently. So create some sort of Bite Size habit to start simple, sustainable, find some sort of accountability. So I think there was a study recently. So this is a fine line. But I think there was a study recently that said, people who said something with public accountability that they planned on accomplishing, they actually were less successful because they got the dopamine hit, right. So maybe that's not it for you. For me, that works really well. If I say on the podcast, I have to do it. It's just, that's just what it is at this point. But maybe for you, it's having a peak performance partner, maybe for you, it's having a coach, maybe for you, it's having some sort of agreement, I have $100 bill on my desk at all times. And it's what I call my $100 habit. I told my wife, I said, here's $100 bill, if I don't go to the gym everyday, this week, I want you to rip this up in front of me. I am a money driven human being I operate well, when there's skin in the game that helps me so we have to figure out what is the level of necessity that you're willing to take on? It should be an uncomfortable level of necessity. Because if it's not an uncomfortable level of necessity, you're not going to do what's uncomfortable to get your goals. You're not sure right? There's no point. So I would say number one, let's focus on what's sustainable for you. What's sustainable, and what's ideal are two different things, especially in the beginning, right, especially the beginning. Number two, what kind of necessity Can we can we bring in? What kind of accountability can we bring in? And then just speaking to the $100 habit, what kind of commitment device can we bring in for you? And again, that's just more necessity.

Philip Pape 19:25

Okay, yep. Just taking notes. Now, this is good. You're speaking my language. Totally speaking. We talking about this stuff all the time. And I want to unpack some of the things you mentioned. So specifically on your weight challenge. That's pretty cool. Right? So a pound a week is totally reasonable. And I like the fact that you use that specific example, because I get questions all the time about what why do I like my clients to weigh themselves every day? It's a kind of a controversial thing for some people to say, Oh, you shouldn't weigh yourself every day. And they list all sorts of excuses, right? And they say, You know what, because weight changes so much. It's meaningless in the short term. And if you have a data point every day now after three weeks So that was just kind of the sweet spot, you actually have information on what's going on. Without it. There's a big gap there. Right? So it's kind of thinking that logically, I love the way you put that. And then the accountability. I heard that same study a couple years back. But I think there's a twist on it that you just suggested. And that is, it's not just the announcing of the goal, right? It's continuing to put it out there after you announce it, which I think is probably what gets you that ultimate accountability, kind of like a challenge, right? We do challenges and we say, Okay, everybody posted in your Facebook group every day, people are watching and people are there to help you. Yeah. Yeah. So so that's good stuff. So you talked about things not being easy, right? Is that the same as struggling? Right? There's a lot of people that have these weak crucibles in their life. And there's this thought that it's those people that have all the success that they had to overcome. And you even told us about one yourself is, do people have to struggle? Or can someone can see cause succeed. Without that,

Kevin Palmieri 20:58

I always my thought on this is you will struggle in direct correlation to the size of your goals. So for me to lose five pounds will be less of a struggle than for me to lose 25 pounds. And that's just the law of the universe. And that's just a law of nature. And that's, that's the way it'll work for most of us. What I think happens is we've fallen into the trap of what gets clicked on what gets purchased. What gets influenced is usually the stuff that's quote unquote, the easiest, it's like, this is the secret that you need to get the result you want. There aren't that many everything you've heard before. It's wrong. It's you're 45 years old, you've been learning wrong for 45 years. It's like no, no, necessarily. Maybe you just haven't done the right thing yet. So I think that for most of us, we want to believe that there is an easier way to do it. And we're holding out for that easier way to come. Like, I'll do it when this comes out. Or when this comes out, when in reality, the results you want are hidden in the work you don't. And so from my perspective, no, I don't think you can really succeed without struggle. Because I think, whatever your version of successes, and it's completely personal, and I want to make sure I put that out there will most likely require conflict. And by definition, conflict is challenging. So I do not think you can now here's the, I guess the detour that you'll hear a lot of people say, well, it's only struggling if you choose, it's only a struggle, if you decide it's a struggle. Sure, I understand that as somebody who has a very strong mindset. And I like to think I'm pretty philosophical at this point in my life, many of us are not going to get to that point where we can choose whether or not we want to struggle, or when you know, if we don't want to suffer, I think it's disempowering to assume that you don't have to, I just I really do. And I think there's a couple of different kinds of people. There's the person who takes they take pride and how easy it was. And there's somebody who takes pride and how hard it was, you got to figure out who you are and who you want to be. And then kind of adjust there and then honestly figure out who to take advice from based on that as well.

Philip Pape 23:03

Now taking pride in how easy something was, would that apply to someone who is really good at making systems that and shortcuts and hacks and automating things, you know, somebody who makes the thing easy by by spending the hard effort first, you know what I mean? Like, where, where's because I'm kind of that guy I want. I want the long term process to be smooth and easy and frictionless. But I take the time upfront to make it that way. Yeah,

Kevin Palmieri 23:25

I agree. We did an episode recently. There is no such thing as smart work until you do hard work first, because without hard work, you can't figure out what's smart or not. Right. So I think that's great, I think, but the fact that you admit Well, in the beginning, it kind of sucks. And then it gets smoother and smoother and smoother as we go. I think that's, I think that's great. I do think a lot of people are trying to avoid that first part. And that's what we get sold, right? It's like, yeah, of course, how many of the same diet supplements, ab crunch board twists, things. You know, it's the same stuff over and over, that takes advantage of people's lack of awareness.

Philip Pape 23:59

Yeah. Hey, this is Philip Pape. And if you feel like you've put in effort to improve your health and fitness, but aren't getting results, I invite you to apply for one on one coaching to make real progress and get the body you desire. We'll work together to figure out what's missing so you can look better, perform better and feel better. Just go to wits & weights.com/coaching, to learn about my program and apply today. Now back to the episode. Yeah, I was thinking about I have a client in her 60s And you know, she she goes to the gym and does her squats, you know, once a week or twice a week. And for those 15 Hard minutes, she's able to go to her patriots season tickets games every week and no longer struggle going up the stairs. And you're like that's the kind of trade off I think we're looking for is that that little bit of hard investment for the real results. Okay, so a lot of my clients, you know, come in and they want to lose weight. They want to improve their body composition. In reality, there's something deeper usually there's something deeper like self confidence and I know that some Can you talk about a lot you've mentioned already. And I know personally from my personal journeys, both fitness and also public speaking. I mean, I would never have done a podcast even five years ago, if I hadn't spent time on the skill of speaking. That that was important to me. So given that you help people improve, Kevin, what is confidence, right? And how can someone become more confident?

Kevin Palmieri 25:21

Confidence is your ability to show up and figure it out? Confidence is your ability to believe that you are capable of achieving some level of result in your life and then and then showing up for it. I think, honestly, it is one of the biggest issues on the planet lack of belief. I really do. And again, I resonate with it, because I still have it. I might seem like a very confident human being, I am confident in this microphone, because I've done this so many times. But it doesn't mean I'm confident in life, it doesn't mean that I have level 10 belief in everything I do. I still have limiting beliefs, I still have doubts, I still have, at times a fixed mindset. So that's been a lifelong journey. For me, I think the best way to build it is to figure out, okay, on a scale of one to 10, what is something that scares me at a level five, because a level 10 Fear is something that will stop you from even starting a level one fear is something that's in your comfort zone. So if you think about it from a comfort zone, the next zone out is the learning zone. And then you have the anxiety zone, most of our fears are in the anxiety zone. Most of our comforts are in the comfort zone, the sweet spot and the potential for growth is in the Learning Zone. So I had a young lady reach out to me, she said I want to be a speaker. Cool. Love that. Are you doing any speaking? And she said No, not yet. Alright, cool. On a scale of and I said let's get you speaking on a scale of one to 10 how outside of your comfort zone is it for you to do a Facebook Live? And she said 12 out of 10? That ain't it? Alright, let's not do that. On a scale of one to 10. How outside of your comfort zone? Is it for you to record a video and show nobody? She said that? It's like a zero. Okay, that's not it on a scale of one to 10 how outside of your comfort zone is it for you to record a video and send it to me only? And I won't show anybody I promise. And she said probably a five or six cool do that. Because you shouldn't be speaking on stage in front of 1000s of people. That's not where we start. You don't start? You know, your baseball career by getting up in front of a 95 mile an hour fastball. Of course, you're gonna be afraid. Right? That's That's natural. Yeah. What is the next available opportunity for growth? It doesn't have to be the biggest it doesn't have to be the most audacious. The one of the things you hear often, Philip, and I'm sure you hear this is what's your big, hairy, audacious goal, like what is the goal that's going to change the world for you? If you're out there, and that doesn't resonate with you, it's because you don't believe you're capable of that yet. Totally fine. It's totally fine. What is the next available opportunity for growth, that's where I would start something simple. When you're walking down the aisle at the supermarket, try to hold eye contact, very uncomfortable, but it takes confidence, it raises your confidence, say I am intentionally going to have a conversation with a person at the checkout counter. And I'm going to hold my own and I'm going to be brave. And I'm just going to say Hey, how was How was your day, how's your weekend, you have any plans for this weekend, just getting outside of your comfort zone little by little by little by little is the way to become more confident, you do not have to do it all at once you do not have to reach the peak of the mountain today. The ultimate goal is to get to the next summit so you can see what's possible for you at the next level the next level. So I think that's kind of a theme for us today is sustainability, sustainability and starting small.

Philip Pape 28:36

Yeah, that that spectrum you just listed, I'm gonna I'm gonna steal that with my clients, because I haven't exactly heard it put that way. I love that the comfort learning and anxiety phases of the spectrum, because it can apply to you know, let's say you just don't get enough sleep, right? You get four or five hours of sleep. I'm not gonna say go start getting eight hours of sleep. I'm gonna say what can you do? Right? That's easy. I asked what can you do? What can we but even the way you put it to get a little more specific of finding the average, you know, kind of between the spectrum is is a great is great advice. It also reminds me the stress recovery adaptation cycle of fitness, right? The idea that you push your self just enough, you push your muscles just enough so they recover and adapt. You don't go so far that you're just you're just trash and can't even go to the gym for three days. And you don't go so low that you didn't feel like you got any work and you lift the same weights for three years. Yeah, great. So related to this, I guess. I think it's important for people trying to do what you do to ask them why they're doing this. Right. Like what what is the deeper purpose? What is the big why in their life? How does someone find that so then they know what to go attack and bring in, in applying this confidence scale?

Kevin Palmieri 29:47

Yeah, it's a challenge. It's anytime we're talking about purpose. Why mission? Passion. I think a lot of us and I, I definitely did this. A lot of us say okay, I'm going to figure this I'm gonna go searching for it like, what is my why? When I think for many of us are why is already happened? Right? So even if we just say like purpose from it, what's the purpose of doing this? A lot of us go out and say, Alright, let me search. Let me try this, let me try this, let me try this, I think that's important because trying things gives you a new awareness. But for many of us, I think our purpose or why our passion is buried in our past, and it usually comes from a place of pain. To your point, why does that client want to get in better shape, it's not necessarily so that client can look better on the beach, it's not necessarily so that client can run a marathon, it's so that client can go watch your favorite sports team, from the stands at maybe the season tickets that she's had for 25 years. That's a deep, deep, deep why? Or maybe because this person has a fear that they're not going to be around for their grandchildren in 25 years, if they don't turn their life around. Maybe that's why a lot of it comes from pain. Unfortunately, many of our wives and our purposes and our passions come from our deepest pain, because we don't want to see that deep pain happen again, we don't want to see it happen to somebody else. And we want to be or at least feel like we're in control of it. So I would say take a look into your past. And what are the things that scare you the most? What are the things that have hurt you the most in the past? What are the things that you know, at a very, very deep level that you think the world should be focused on more? That's a great question when it comes to purpose or passion or why. But at the deepest level, I think it's you sitting with your thoughts and saying, Alright, let me be real with myself. Is it because I want to be more physically capable? Or is it because I want to look better in a bikini or my board shorts? The answer is personal. But the more specific you are with why the more real you are with yourself. I love giving back. And I love adding value. And I love our community and I love podcasting. But I also am more driven by money than my business partner. I just am for a long time. I didn't want to admit that. Because I thought it made me look bad or I'd look selfish. That's just the truth. I am a more money driven human being than him. Let me use that to run this better. When you're aware of something you admit it, you're probably more likely to get the results anyway because at least you're doing it for the right reasons. And you know, the right reasons.

Philip Pape 32:18

Yeah, that's, that's a really great point to end that answer on. Because there's there's no shame people have to understand there's no shame in your personal reason for doing something which can change, it can change daily, weekly, monthly. It can be there can be multiple reasons and you know, use that use that as fuel to drive you don't even have to admit it to people, if you don't want just use it. So I think that's that's awesome. Looking to your past. It's so true people. Again, people that come to me, it's there's always something that they dealt with in the past that didn't work, right. It's not like they come to me because everything's hunky dory. And now they just have this magical goal out in the future. So that's a really good one. Where does, where does the vulnerability play into this word is I don't know self love, you talked about limiting beliefs, but like, accepting yourself or emotion vulnerability play into self improvement.

Kevin Palmieri 33:08

Vulnerability is living in the truth. At the at the end of the day, right? When we think of vulnerability, it's admitting what's real, regardless of the fear around it. And there's a million reasons, if you want your relationships to improve, you've got to lean into vulnerability. I mean, you have to because you're living the truth, if you want necessity to increase, you have to be vulnerable with yourself. My business partner has this, this habit that he does, it's called the naked truth. He literally stands in front of his full size mirror with no clothes on to assess where he's at physically. And he says, yep, not as good as I thought, or, wow, it's better than I thought. It's that it's literally him being vulnerable with himself and saying, Alright, let me get the truth here. Let me get the truth, let me get what's real. So I can make changes according accordingly. Any relationship, I believe the level of the relationship is based on the level of vulnerability. So that's one point, why vulnerability is so important. But if you're going to facilitate change within yourself, you have to be first vulnerable enough to admit where you are. If you don't know where you are, you're not going to understand or be able to contextualize how to get where you're going. And it just is the truth. Vulnerability is the truth.

Philip Pape 34:22

And how do you do that without, without going into some despair, or, you know, despair, depression or negative thinking about it?

Kevin Palmieri 34:30

If that's the hard part, because there's a lot of different ways to do it. But I can't, I can't really say you won't feel despair, or you won't feel negativity. Because what's going to happen? One of two things is going to happen. So let's just say you're vulnerable. And you look back to a Facebook post from two years ago, almost exclusively, one of two things is going to happen. You're going to say, wow, I've come a long way. Wow, I haven't made any progress at all, and I look I don't look as good as I had hoped. Your trauma response to either of those is going to be personal and up to you. But you have to understand that at least the awareness is a potential opportunity. I think that's, that's all I can really speak to on that Philip is, yes, awareness is painful. Yes, you can definitely get too much too much awareness at once. But you also can live your life with not nearly enough awareness, which won't help you make change. So hopefully, you can at least take the awareness and say, Alright, yeah, this sucks. And this is uncomfortable. Wow, that's a lot of truth at once. All right, well, at least now I can operate accordingly. And now I know where I actually am. I'm done kidding myself. I know what's real. Logically, I understand where I'm actually at the emotional side of things has gone away a little bit.

Philip Pape 35:45

Yeah. And that sounds like one of the first steps. You know, years ago, I learned about emotional intelligence, right? Self awareness is number one. And you just said, you know, maybe you can have too much, but generally people don't have enough. And you can use that to your advantage. So. So speaking of emotions, there's this very important quote by a fictional character who said, Fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate leads to suffering. What is your biggest fear? I wanted to ask you that? What's your biggest fear? Is Yoda Correct? Or can fear be a positive tool actually, or change?

Kevin Palmieri 36:19

I think fear is a, a very positive tool. As long as it's bottled effectively, I think of it as it's almost like gasoline, if you use it in the right direction, it's great. But you can also really overuse it and it can create an inferno in your life for sure. For me, it's not being good enough. My greatest fear is my fear of failure. My fear of being left behind my fear of judgment, my fear of not not being good enough, my fear of appearing arrogant. That's a big one. For me, I've had a couple moments, we were talking about self awareness, where I'm thinking it's like, I don't know if anybody's gonna like me after this, like I think, um, because it's, this is an intense, it's, this is more intense than sometimes I am. So it's weird. But that that's a big one for me. I'm terrified of not being liked, which makes it super challenging to do what we do. But you know, you can't necessarily let that run you. When we're talking about like real world stuff, planes and sharks, talk to him flying over the ocean, I'm losing my mind.

Philip Pape 37:19

That's because I worked in the aerospace industry for years, I can tell you the one of the safest thing on the planet. Yeah, no, it doesn't matter. logic isn't good enough. That's so funny. So you mentioned being afraid of how people are going to perceive you. And I'm sure a lot of us face that, whether you call it impostor syndrome, or whatever. But now you've done by the time this episode comes out, you would have done probably more than 1200 podcast episodes. Would you say that experience has changed that fear in any way mitigated? It? Is it? Is it a therapy to deal with the fear? What would you say? Yeah, it's,

Kevin Palmieri 37:54

I don't know, it's hard, because in a way, that fear only gets tested when it gets touched on. So I've had, believe it or not, and again, I'm not inviting this. I don't want this to happen. But I think I've only had three or four people ever reach out and like talk genuine trash, which is good. Like, I'm really happy about that. What I will say is my response to that has improved over the years, which means I think my fear is running me less. Do I want to physically have a hand to hand scrap? Yes, initially I do. I'll be honest, but then it's usually okay. What is there to learn from this? So I would say it has definitely gotten better. And I think one of the reasons it's gotten better is the awareness around a lot of times people are, they're not judging you. They're judging themselves based on what you reveal to them. That's been an unlock for me, understanding that. Look, you you may have said something wrong, but you probably didn't. You probably said something that somebody has never heard in that way from somebody like you, whatever that means. And it's triggering them in some way, shape or form. Maybe they're not ready to face that mirror yet. So they're going to villainize you. I've done it. So I empathize with it. So I would say it's gotten better, but it still scares the poop out of me.

Philip Pape 39:10

That's serious stuff. Yeah. Serious. Definitely. We podcasters you know, we try to tread that line. So it's yeah,

Kevin Palmieri 39:15

it's a challenge.

Philip Pape 39:16

It's a challenge. It's a challenge. All right. Well, here's the here's the penultimate question I like to ask all guests for the listener is what one what one question Did you wish I had asked and what is your answer?

Kevin Palmieri 39:27

Hmm. What is one? I wish since we're on a fitness podcast, you asked what it was like to be a full scale bodybuilder.

Philip Pape 39:37

I should have done that. Yeah, I really should have. So tell us about your whole bodybuilding journey because we could do a whole episode just about that.

Kevin Palmieri 39:45

It was it was the worst. It was the genuine worst. I was in the gym. One day somebody came up to me and as all good stories start, and they said, Hey, you should be a bodybuilder. And I was like, okay, cool. What does that look like? And They're like, reach out to this coach, and they'll help you. And I was like, All right, I love the gym. Cool this How hard can this be? That coach didn't workout. I ended up connecting with another coach. And I'm grateful I had a wonderful coach. He's an IFBB pro. He is like he is awesome. First question he asked me, enhanced or natural, natural, cool, no stress. I was like, Alright, cool. We're good. He's like, yep, don't worry about it. You're good. Natural. He said, If you are willing to suffer more than anybody else, you will win. And it was like, Oh, no. Oh, no. What did I get myself into? Completely natural or not compete? Okay, no, no, no, I would have got smoked Yeah, that's I was gonna say yeah, no competing competing in. I don't even remember. I don't remember what organization it was. OCB OCB was the organization and I had a great relationship with this coach. He was awesome. He was a really good person. So I ended up doing a show I do I do this prep for I think it was eight weeks, while working a job while traveling. I'm bringing my hot plate on the road cooking in hotels literally got to the point where I was blowing out the breakers in my part of the hotel because my my crock pot and all that was too powerful was a whole thing. But I ended up doing this doing this show and I I won my division and I think I placed third or fourth in the open or whatever it is. And it was one of those things where I was very grateful I did it. But I I realized that took a piece of me that I'll never get back there. Just the levels and the links I went to to get as lean as I did. I was really, really, really lean. And I definitely messed up my metabolism. I missed your hormones, my sex drive, I messed up everything doing that. You had to get to what four or 5% or so. I never I never got tested but I I couldn't have been any higher than

Philip Pape 41:43

seven. Yeah, people need to understand that who are listening because it's like even if you want to be lifestyle lean. There's a big difference too. Yeah. And bodybuilding show. Yeah,

Kevin Palmieri 41:50

I couldn't walk up the stairs. I struggled. I literally struggled to walk up the stairs. I used to fall asleep on the ladders at work, because I was just so I mean, I'm doing an hour of cardio a day and lifting. And I'm probably eating 1600 calories. It's just, it's brutal. But I tell tell tell some of my clients 1600 Oh, I would love to eat 60

Philip Pape 42:11

Some of the smaller you know, female. Yeah.

Kevin Palmieri 42:14

And understandable. Understandable. Yeah, for me at you know, somebody who's working out big guy, a lot of muscles and so on. Yeah, doing like heavy legs and all that cardio. So I ended up winning that show. I'm never gonna do this. Again. This is the worst thing I've ever done. I sign up for another show. For some reason. I don't know why. But I ended up getting a cheat meal. And it was like steak, mashed potatoes and broccoli or something and a half a pint of Ben and Jerry's. And I was like, Alright, I can I can live like this. I'm getting ready for bed that night. I couldn't sleep. And I literally said screw it. I'm done. I went downstairs finished the other rest of the Pines texted my coach and said, Hey, I'm not doing this. And then that was it. That was the end of my bodybuilding journey.

Philip Pape 42:52

That's awesome. Ya know, it's a really good thing. We don't talk a lot about stage bodybuilding, mainly because I've not been through it. I listen to a lot about it. And I think it's a fascinating. It's a fascinating study into what the human body's capable of. But it's Yeah, yeah. Takes a lot out of you. Yeah, exactly. I mean, we talked about just the beginning phases of metabolic adaptation that people experienced during dieting, let alone if you went to that level to that extreme. Awesome. So where Kevin, can people learn more about you and your work?

Kevin Palmieri 43:23

I always just say, if you like what we talked about today, this was a unique flavor of it, but very similar to what we talked about. We're on all the podcast platforms were on YouTube, just search next level University. And if you have any questions for me, specifically, Kevin Palmieri on LinkedIn and Facebook and then at never quit kid on Instagram, I'm happy to to answer anything you got.

Philip Pape 43:45

All right. I'm gonna include all those links in the show notes so the listener can find you and Kevin, thank you again. This was an awesome conversation. A lot of fun. Thank you for coming on the show.

Kevin Palmieri 43:53

Thank you, my friend. My pleasure.

Philip Pape 43:56

Philip Pape 3/17/23 Philip Pape 3/17/23

Ep 53: 5 Mistakes People Make During Fat Loss

We uncover 5 of the most common mistakes people make during their fat loss journey.

In today’s special solo episode, we uncover 5 of the most common mistakes people make during their fat loss journey.

As someone who is 8 weeks into my own 12-week fat loss phase as I record this episode, I can empathize with these challenges and offer guidance on what to avoid and how to successfully navigate your next fat loss phase!.

Drawing from my daily experiences with clients who have also faced these common struggles, I share practical advice to help you overcome them and make the most of your health and fitness journey.

Episode resources:

MacroFactor food logging app (use affiliate code “WITSANDWEIGHTS” to extend your free trial):
Ep 21: 21 Ways to Measure Progress and Crush Your Fitness Goals
Ep 25: Lose 30 Pounds (or More) the Right Way and Keep it Off

👉 If you want to learn more about lifting and nutrition, reach out to Philip:

IG: https://www.instagram.com/witsandweights/
Email: philip@witsandweights.com

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Transcript

Philip Pape 00:08

Philip Pape 00:30

Wits & Weights community Welcome to another episode of the Wits & Weights podcast, I thought it was time for another solo episode, where we sit down just you and me to talk about the things that you have asked to learn more about in the realm of health and fitness, so you can upgrade and optimize your body composition. But before we get into the show, I just want to say that I hope you've enjoyed all the value packed interview episodes with guests that we've had over the last few months, guests from across the industry. And what I'm super excited to announce right here right now is our upcoming lineup of evidence base experts this year, and they include none other than Brandon the crews, Andy Baker, Jeff hain, Dr. Ron McLean, Cody McBroom, Eric Helms, and Greg knuckles, to name a few. So make sure to follow the show in your podcast app to automatically download these episodes. today for this very special solo episode, I came up with five of the more common mistakes that people make during fat loss. This topic is top of mind because I personally am just a few weeks away from completing another fat loss phase. So I can both empathize with these mistakes. I've made them in the past. And they're a good reminder of what not to do, and what to do instead, so that you can gracefully navigate the eight to 16 weeks of your next fat loss phase. I also have the opportunity every day to work with clients who face the same struggles and have learned to avoid them. So here we go. Number one is just going too fast, even if you are within the evidence based range of 0.25 to 1% of your body weight per week. And this is the range that is intended to minimize your muscle loss. Even if you're within that a lot of people will try to push that to the upper range, the point seven, five of the 1%. Thinking that okay, well, if that's the most I can go, I'm gonna go all the way and diet as quickly as I can. But here's the problem, when you do that, you're in a bigger deficit. And a bigger deficit means fewer calories to eat. And if you're already in a position where let's say you didn't have a lot of muscle mass, or your metabolism just isn't as high as someone else, you just may end up with very low calories, even from the beginning of the fat loss phase. So if you're only burning, say 1800 calories, and you pick a rate that puts you at 1100 or 1000, that just right off the bat, even in week one may not be sustainable for you. What I would rather you do and I do this with clients is pick something more conservative, it's still, it's still aggressive enough, such that within 12 weeks or so you're going to have a meaningful amount of fat loss. But pick a number where Yeah, I can eat, I can eat these calories, no problem at the beginning. And knowing that my metabolism will adapt downward during the diet, and I'm actually going to have to eat less and less most likely, where I can still sustain the calories that I end up with in the last few weeks of the diet, just assume your metabolism is going to go down over that phase. And think that way so that you can be successful, I'd rather be successful, then try to be aggressive and then fall off the rails on week two, or week one. So do the math, decide what target this is going to get you at to be at a realistic calorie deficit and set that as your goal. Even if it's not your final final final goal, you have to understand that it might take a few phases to get there. But the point is to make progress and actually get there eventually. So if you set a target like that, here's the thing you can do. As you get going, if you feel like Hey, I just said my target for 1600 calories, but I really have no problem eating 1600 I could probably eat 1500 a day or 1400 a day, just go ahead and go for 1400 a day. Despite that the target says 1600. So if you're using an app, like macro factor, which I highly recommend, I use it my clients use it. I have a discount code, Wits & Weights, that'll get you an extra free week. I'll put that in the show notes. But if you use an app like that, it's going to tell you the amount of protein fats and carbs you want to get and go ahead and get the protein but undershoot on the fats and carbs if you have no problem doing that, and that will also speed up your results without it really pushing too far past

Philip Pape 04:59

The upper range of what the evidence says. So that's number one is going too fast, pick the right number and stick with it. Number two, is having this all or nothing mentality. Now you've probably heard this a lot, right? All or nothing as in, if I fail, then I'm just going to say what the hell and I'm going to eat the rest of the pizza or the rest of the box of cookies. And then the rest of my week is shot. I'm not actually talking about that so much as the dieting mentality overall, are you using a rigid approach, or a flexible approach, because a rigid approach will eventually inevitably lead to an all or nothing result? Let me explain what I mean. So if you have a meal plan given to you that says, Eat exactly these foods every day, well, as soon as you do something slightly off of that, you've just failed, right? At least in your mind, and somewhat in reality, right? Because you were expected to stick to this exact plan. If instead, you take a flexible approach that gives you some wealth, flexibility, but not just that some permission, right, some grace, some allowance to make the choices that you want to make within your lifestyle, then you have a significantly lower chance of, quote, unquote, failing, because there's this y tolerance of success. And so let me explain what I mean. There's, there's flexible dieting that we talked about in this show, which, of course, is simply sticking with a certain calorie and macro prescription, and then choosing the foods to meet those numbers. But then even within that, there is additional flexibility, things like diet breaks, where you just stop dieting, and you go to your maintenance calories for a day, two days a week, a month, whatever makes sense, to break the mental fatigue of dieting, there's something like carb cycling, where you have some days that are higher carbs than others. And so you could just swap off your carbs, right, I had a client this week who she was talking about her performance in the gym going down and a fat loss phase, she felt kind of tired for her workouts. I said, Why don't we shift the carbs to front load them mostly before your workout in the meal before you workout. And we can even steal from a day when you're not training. And that's a traditional approach called carb cycling. But you don't just want to do it indiscriminately, you want to tie it to your workout timing. So that's meal timing. Then there's also other nonlinear dieting approaches like having two higher calorie days and five lower calorie days, where the weekly calories are the same. One of my clients recently, we had been steadily progressing through her diet, and she was on consistent calories every day. And she kept struggling with the weekend. And she wasn't really failing to hit her targets. She was very, very disciplined and held yourself accountable. But she kept telling me no check ins, like, I'm just not enjoying the weekends, I really want to be able to let loose a little bit. Because the routine is different. We're going out and so on. But I've been keeping it under control because you're my coach, and I'm trying to get to a goal. I said, Okay, well, that's great. I love your discipline. But how about we try a nonlinear approach. If your weekdays are pretty boring and routine and you're busy, and you're just eating at home, and you have lots of vegetables, and you have lean meats and things like that? Can you eat 200 fewer calories a day in the weekday? She's like, Yeah, no problem. In fact, sometimes I forget, and I don't even eat as much as I am supposed to eat. So okay, good. So we're going to steal the calories from the weekdays, I'm going to put them on the weekends. How's that sound? Oh, I didn't realize we could do that. That's awesome. I think that'd be great. And then immediately after one week, we realized that this was what she needed. It gave her the psychological break on the weekend, the ability to go out to enjoy yourself, put her weekly calories are exactly the same. So think about creatively, how you can have a flexible approach to everything you do. So that all the things that tripped you up in the past are now accommodated within your week.

Philip Pape 09:05

Hey, this is Philip Pape. And if you feel like you've put in effort to improve your health and fitness, but aren't getting results, I invite you to apply for a one on one coaching to make real progress and get the body you desire. We'll work together to figure out what's missing so you can look better, perform better and feel better. Just go to wits & weights.com/coaching, to learn about my program and apply today. Now back to the episode. All right, number three, too much cardio, or too much high volume training. Now I talk about cardio a lot on this show, you know that I'm not a huge fan of too much cardio. I like to use the metric of you know, don't do more than half of the time you lift as cardio. So if you lift four hours a week, no more than two hours a week of cardio. But the reason we don't want to use too much cardio during a fat loss phase is because cardio or two walking, running high impact movement, lots and lots of medium or high intensity movement is, is stress is a stressor, right? It's an overall stressor on your body. Unlike for example, walking, which is not, it can also impact your recovery and your muscle building, it can impact it physically, when you are using those same muscles that you're trying to build. And now you're causing some micro tears, and you're impeding their recovery from your lifting session. But there's also a metabolic aspect metabolic adaptation aspect to cardio where if you do too much of it, your body is programming itself for this calorie efficiency and actually burns fewer calories. And it's a conflict between this endurance mode and this strength are holding on to muscle mode, well, we want to be into that preservation of muscle mode. So this is why if you don't like cardio, or you don't want to do much, you really don't have to, even in a fat loss phase, I want you to do a lot of walking. Yes. And I want you to lift really heavy, but too much cardio can be could could interfere with what you're trying to do here. Some cardio is okay. And sometimes we want to add in cardio or hit sessions later in a fat loss phase if you're a more athletic client who's going for a more extreme level of leanness, and it could be helpful, in which case, you're making more of a compromise between that and preserve your muscle. So I'm just talking about the general population here. The other thing we want to avoid here is the high volume training, meaning if if my clients telling me that they're constantly sore from the workouts, and then working with a personal trainer, you know, they're not working with me on the training side, for their direct programming. And they're like, I'm constantly sore, one of the first things I ask is, let me see your training logs and your programming, because it sounds like you might be doing a high volume program. And we don't want high volume during fat loss, we want to modest level of volume with high intensity, a high weight on the bar, I'd rather you be doing low to moderate reps with a very high weight for like three movements a workout. So you have tons of recovery and rest. And you really take care of yourself during a fat loss. But you send that muscle building signal to your body so that you continue to replenish your muscle tissue and don't lose that very special tissue. We want to lose fat, we don't want to lose muscle. So look at your training and make sure that it is not something causing too much recovery interference, too much. Stress, right? So high volume training and cardio will do that. Number four mistake Mistake number four, not tracking progress. Okay, and this could be whatever you want it to be. But in my world, at least with my clients, we're talking calories, and macros, we track our weight, okay. And we can go off a whole discussion about the importance of tracking weight every day, but not not caring about the daily weight. We track it every day so that we have the trend of weight over time. body measurements, like your circumference measurements, I can't tell you how many times a client says help me the weight is not going down. I'm trying to lose weight and it's not going down. And we just started training. We just started all the things we just started a fat loss phase. And I say, Well, let's look at your waist measurement. Oh, it went down by two inches. That is huge. How do you feel? Well, I feel great. I mean, my clothes are fitting better. You know, I look better in the mirror. But my weight has gone on like, okay, let's, let's get our priorities right here and think about what the data is telling us. If your weight is the same, but you feel better. If I told you that you can feel exactly what you want to feel and look great for the rest of your life. And you're going to do it 10 pounds heavier. Would you rather be 10 pounds lighter and not feel that way? Or would you take that extra pounds knowing that you actually got the result you wanted? Right? That's kind of what it comes down to. So it's all the things of progress, the food, the measurements, the weight, and then biofeedback, which are slightly more qualitative measures, but they're not really qualitative in the sense that you know, your body and week to week to week if you track these things, you can tell how they're changing. Things like hunger, stress, sleep, recovery, energy, mood, right? Also, all of my clients when they check in with me, whether it's weekly, bi weekly, whatever their checking cadence is, they fill in a short form that looks kind of like a journal where they document their wins for the week. Their lessons for the week, right aha moments revelations, the roadblocks that got in their way. Okay, these are problems that tripped them up or could have tripped them up that we can come up with solutions for and momentum builders. Momentum builders are the solutions that you might have come up with yourself. Or maybe I dropped an idea during the week and said try this and you did and all of a sudden it unlocked something and created momentum. So it's kind of like a journal. All of this is is tracking. Right now if you want to learn about all the ways that we can measure progress, go back and check out episode 21. And it's titled 21 ways to measure progress and crush your fitness goals. Number five, the number five mistake is not learning from your mistakes. This is obviously not exclusive to fat loss, health and fitness, or exclusive to anything really we all do this. But if you are tracking your progress, like we just talked about with Mistake number four people don't do that if you're tracking your progress, that is giving you the feedback, you need to identify where your actions lead to certain outcomes. And then to change your actions next time. That's learning from mistakes. That is the closed feedback loop. When I joined Toastmasters over 10 years ago, I was a terrible speaker, I was nervous, I didn't know what I was doing. Well, through a process of speaking in front of people, and having people tell me what they observed, I was able to very quickly within months, significantly improve my ability to speak. If that's how skill works. Well guess what? Fat Loss is a skill, it's a bunch of skills. And if you're not tracking, if you're not doing all these things, you're never going to know why you failed, why something happened, okay. And we're gonna assume that if you're listening to Wits, & Weights, you're doing all the things you need to do, and following an evidence based approach to fat loss. But still, something's going to trip you up, I get tripped up. I mean, this time during the fat loss phase, there were little things that tripped me up like, a few weeks in a row, my metabolism went way down. And I plateaued a bit. And I realized it was because my step count wasn't where it needed to be. Well, that you could look at that as an opportunity mistake, whatever you want to call it. But I track my steps. So because I track my steps, I could look through all my data and say, Hey, what's different? You know, the funny thing is, when you're in a fat loss phase, sometimes you just move less without realizing it. And by the way, it's winter, here, it's snow, working from home, you know, there's definitely lots of reasons, excuses, whatever you want to say, where you just might not walk as much. And as you get lighter and a little bit weaker, a little bit more tired during a fat loss phase, you tend to just move less anyway. So that data was a wake up call to me, oh, I need to get my step count back up. And so I went back up to my normal average of like 10 to 12k. And lo and behold, my metabolism responded. And this week, finally, for the first time in about a month, I actually have about 100 more calories a day to play with during my fat loss phase, which feels like a feast honestly, in relative terms. So learn from your mistakes by tracking, and then using that information to change your actions for the future. Alright, there are obviously more than five mistakes that people make during fat loss. But these are some of the big ones. And if you want a full walkthrough of the entire process of preparing for executing and coming out of a fat loss phase in the best shape you've ever been, and you have a decent amount of weight to lose, go back and check out episode 25 titled lose 30 pounds or more the right way and keep it off. Now, even if you don't have a lot of weight to lose, there were several episodes I did back around that period, around the whole process of building muscle losing fat, how it all links up together. And wherever you are, there's something for you. So let's recap the five mistakes. Number one going too fast, even if it is within the evidence based range, just going too fast that it's not sustainable. Number two, using a rigid approach instead of a flexible approach, so that you can avoid the all or nothing mentality. Number three, doing too much cardio or high volume training, instead of focusing on high load train to build or hold on to muscle. Number four, not tracking progress, whether calories, weight, body measurements, biofeedback and so on. Number five, not learning from your mistakes using the data to see how you can change our actions and thus change the outcome. Wits & Weights community if you're interested in a free 30 minute call, where I don't sell you on anything whatsoever. And I answer whatever questions you have about your personal journey to upgrade and optimize your body to finally look and feel great for the rest of your life. Just check out the link in the show notes. As always, stay strong. And I'll talk to you next time here on the Wits & Weights podcast.

Philip Pape 19:32

Thanks for listening to the show. Before you go, I have a quick favor to ask. If you enjoy the podcast. Let me know by leaving a five star review in Apple podcasts and telling others about the show. Thanks again for joining me Philip Pape in this episode of Wits & Weights. I'll see you next time and stay strong.

Philip Pape 3/14/23 Philip Pape 3/14/23

Ep 52: How to Control Emotional Eating and Exercise Consistently with Ashley Carlotta

We discuss emotional eating and healthy habits, the difference between physical hunger and emotional eating, why we eat emotionally, and how to address this for consistent habits and results with Ashley Carlotta. We also explore strategies for planning ahead and staying accountable, why it's hard to go it alone when trying to live a healthy lifestyle, managing food choices during a gaining phase, and the importance of non-food behaviors like hydration, activity, and self-care for success.

Today we discuss emotional eating and healthy habits, the difference between physical hunger and emotional eating, why we eat emotionally, and how to address this for consistent habits and results. We also explore strategies for planning ahead and staying accountable, why it's hard to go it alone when trying to live a healthy lifestyle, managing food choices during a gaining phase, and the importance of non-food behaviors like hydration, activity, and self-care for success.

My guest is Ashley Carlotta, a Certified Accountability Health Coach. Ashley has helped hundreds of clients accountable to eat well and exercise consistently while living in moderation and practicing mindfulness.

She is the founder of Better Health by Accountability, where she coaches men and women all over the world. Ashley believes that daily accountability support is key to reaching your health and wellness goals. Ashley’s coaching provides daily communication, check-ins, guidance, and continuous reminders, and her clients find success with her direct, no excuses, fun-loving style.

You'll learn all about:

Ashley's story and why she became a coach
The difference between physical hunger and emotional eating
Why we eat emotionally
How to "fix" emotional eating or take control for consistent habits and results
How to plan ahead for dining out, travel, and other opportunities to eat emotionally
How to cultivate accountability and planning ahead (and why we don't already do this)
Why it's hard to go it alone when trying to live a healthy lifestyle
Managing food choices when in a gaining (muscle building) phase
The importance of non-food behaviors (hydration, activity, self-care) for success

Episode resources:

Download your free cheat sheet - 5 ways to start losing weight without dieting
Ashley's website - betterhealthbyaccountability.com
Find Ashley on Instagram - @betterhealthbyaccountability
Watch the episode on video here

👉 If you want to learn more about lifting and nutrition, reach out to Philip:

IG: https://www.instagram.com/witsandweights/
Email: philip@witsandweights.com

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Transcript

Philip Pape 00:08

Ashley Carlotta 01:24

Hey, thanks for having me.

Philip Pape 01:27

Awesome. So why don't we just set up that story about emotional eating? From your personal experience? I understand that from a young age, you struggled with using food as a coping mechanism, and then eventually learn to eat more mindfully and intuitively. So walk us through your backstory. What got you here, what you learned along the way about that topic, especially that inspired you to help others?

Ashley Carlotta 01:49

Yeah, when I was six years old, it's funny, one of my kindergarten friends just actually sent me a video, she was watching old videos. I was overweight, even as a six year old. And so I didn't even know it. Obviously, you're so little at that time until I started comparing myself to the other girls around me when we had to be in this show. I had to wear a leotard and tights and I was crying to my mom, I didn't want to go out on stage. And it was from then I knew that I was bigger than other than other kids my age and just, it took me through my life like that. Like I never got control of it. I always finished everything on my plate. In my teens, I would watch my peers. And I would almost want to try to copy what they were doing. Like for example, we were at Taco Bell. It's like they would have like a taco and I was not just having a taco, I was having a taco and burrito, and maybe some of those churro thingies and maybe nachos like food was my comfort. And I didn't even know that that was a thing, right? Like emotional eating wasn't even a term that anyone ever used. You know, I had boyfriends that would make comments. I had one boyfriend tell me aren't girlfriends, like supposed to be skinny, we had been in an argument. I know. I know, things that you don't think somebody would come out of somebody's mouth, but it did. So into my 20s I had just accepted that I was an overweight person. This was my lifestyle. I didn't know how to control it had gotten married. And our hobby essentially was like going to breweries and eating the crap food and having beers. And that was fun. That's what we did on the weekends. And it wasn't until after I had my second child. I have three now. But after I had my second child, I was done. I was done with the yo yo dieting, I was done just restricting. And then going back to my old ways I had done it so many times I had tried this SlimFast Jenny Craig weightwatchers like all of the things and I knew that I could lose weight that way if I wanted to, but I didn't want to gain it back this time. So I just started asking people questions like friends around me like I had to start getting really vulnerable about what it was that was going on. And I realized that I hadn't really even opened up to anybody about the fact that I overeat that I emotionally eat in the evenings that I drink too much right these were all coping mechanisms for me when I was feeling stressed or tired or sad even happy let's go out and eat more food you know, no portion control whatsoever and so I started running actually, I always danced to growing up I danced and stuff but I was like you know I'm going to try something new so with what am I good friends we started running first it was like a mile and then it was two miles and then we got all the way up to like six miles and I ran a 10k I started eating actual food that was fueling me you know protein. I didn't even know what protein was and I got into my fitness pal and I started tracking my calories and my macros and putting it all together. And it just started working for the first time. And I got down to my goal weight. And I maintained it for a couple years, which I had never done ever, ever, ever in my life had I maintained a weight for two years, then we decided to have another child. And after I had her, I had, you know, about 2530 pounds to lose. And I just, I couldn't find the motivation. I knew what I had to do. I had done it before I had maintain it, but like Monday would come again. We were. So I decided, like every normal person to put myself on Instagram, and let everybody follow my journey. I have no intention of starting a business, nothing. But people started asking me oh my gosh, like, what are you doing? What program? Are you on? You know, what exercise place are you going to and all these things, and I was like, Look, I'm just eating healthy. I'm getting enough sleep, I'm drinking enough water. And I'm doing my at home exercises. And I'm not even it's not like a whole hour a day. It's just short, little spurts. And I'm doing it consistently. And this is how you get to where you want to be. But for me, it was them watching me and holding me accountable. And I was doing way and Wednesdays. And that was just the missing piece for me is having somebody watching what I was doing so that I couldn't make excuses. And from that I had people asking if I could help them. And I realized that it's so much more than just dieting. It's, that's I mean, anybody can diet, right? But it's more working on the mindset that comes with that. Why do you want this? Why are you eating more than you need to eat? Why are you having more than the portion size that you need? Why are you going and having eight cookies instead of to sitting down and joining them, all of that. And so that's what I help a lot of people with is planning how they want to go into a scenario, and then coming back and reporting how they did. And once you practice that over and over and over, it just starts to become routine. And you can get out of that cycle of choosing food and drinks for a lot of us to make yourself feel better. And that's where I am today. I it formed into a business I did taxes and accounting for 12 years and never thought I would be here. But it just goes to show that they can take the ugly and you know, use it for good. But God can do that.

Philip Pape 07:28

Actually, I mean, thank you for sharing the whole story there. There's so many like keywords and themes and philosophies in there that I love that I want to like pick out because, you know, I know this is the root of why you do what you do today with accountability. So starting from that epiphany you had where you finally got things to work for the first time. And it was at that time, it sounds like it was a knowledge and awareness thing before you even get to the accountability part. What would you how important would you say that is and how many people don't even know what to do before we even get to, hey, I know what to do. And now I need help getting there.

Ashley Carlotta 08:02

Yeah, I feel like you do have to come to the point of just hitting a wall and saying, I don't want to live this way anymore. Because the feelings around it and the things that I would say to myself, I was beating myself up. And so it did I think it took like just listening to some mindset things around it at the time. It was around my business and stuff in my tax profession and stuff. And I realized I thought your thoughts matter. And if I'm waking up every morning saying, Ashley, you're a failure. Ashley, you look disgusting. Ashley, why do you eat so much your pants don't fit. And you say that over and over and over. And I do think you have to get to the point to say you know what, Ashley, you can do this. You have a choice. Buckle in, get it done, you can do it. And you do you have to get to that switch where you make that decision to say I want something better for myself, and I'm not going to look back anymore. Is it going to be easy? No. But you can do it. You put one foot in front of the other. Sometimes you back up a little bit but you keep going and no longer was I going to say I screwed up this Friday. I'm going to screw up the rest of the weekend. And here I am Monday super pissed at myself. And so yeah, I think it gets to that. And, you know, when I talk to people on Discovery calls in the beginning and stuff, like there's a lot of tears, and I feel it, I feel their pain and it just it it makes me so sad. And I just want to get in there and you know, I really, really really want to help them because there is hope on the other side of this. There really is.

Philip Pape 09:37

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, there's that is so true. I think the majority of people that reach out once you dig into that deeper level of what you talked about earlier, the why right? Get get to the limiting beliefs get to understanding not just the why I want to lose weight, okay, why do I want to lose weight? Well, I want to you know, feel better about myself. Why do I want that? You know, and you go on and you find the deeper core how So how can people discover that for themselves as? And is that the first step? And then how can people do that? Yeah,

Ashley Carlotta 10:07

I think, again, that takes sitting with yourself and being honest with yourself. A lot of times, I know, especially for me, it's like, every time I would think something negatively about myself or want to change, I think in my head, it would be like, That's too hard. That's gonna take a long time, and whatever. And so you do you almost you have to put pen to paper and really write why do I want to change this? You know, is it because I want to be able to keep up with my kids? Is it because I just want to feel pretty, you know? Or do I want to feel more tone, I want to feel strong, I want to have energy, I don't want to be beating myself up anymore. And like, write those things down. And then you have to figure out, okay, what steps are you going to take to change that then? And who are you going to reach out to to help you and who are you going to be vulnerable with Intel, that you're doing this because even alongside the clients that I work with, I very much encourage them, talk to your spouse, talk to a few trusted friends have build your team around you, so that you won't fail so that they can encourage you and be a cheerleader for when you feel like you don't want to continue on? They're gonna remind you why you want it because A, B, C, D, E, and then you're like, Okay, I can do this, you know, you do you have to come to that point. And then you have to figure out why. And then you have to instill the steps to make you actually do it.

Philip Pape 11:29

Right. Okay, so let's, let's get a little more focused on the discussion more strategic and talk about the emotional eating specifically, because I could go on for two hours with you about mindset in general. So we often talk about things like hunger, or cravings, right there. I think there's a distinction, like, what, there's hunger, there's emotional eating, there's all these concepts, and people tend to lump everything together. What's the difference between, I guess, true physical hunger and what we call emotional eating?

Ashley Carlotta 11:59

Yeah, true physical hunger is when it starts to build, you can kind of feel your stomach growling, you know, maybe like your energy is not the same as it was. And you should have enough time, it shouldn't be like a snack, I'm so hungry, right, it should have enough time to where you're able to pause. Think about what you're going to eat, pick fueling foods, hopefully, you've prepared a little bit mentally before that. So you don't just go to your fridge and open it right. physical hunger is not based on emotion, it's like I am hungry, and I need to eat. emotional hunger can even happen. When you're not even hungry, it can literally just be you trying to make yourself feel better in whatever situation that you have. It also could be boredom, too. And a lot of times, you know, if desk jobs especially like a lot of people are sitting all day long. And then they're just eating so many more calories than they would ever have. Because they're just mindlessly like eating out of the chip bag, or they have a candy jar right here and things like that. motional eating, for a lot of I'd say most of the people that I work with, happens in the evening time. It's almost like they're tired. They're exhausted from the day, maybe they're stressed out from the day. And sometimes I know a lot of the moms that I work with, too, it's like, you want to reward yourself for like a long day, right? And it can snowball, it can start with like, Okay, well, I'm going to treat myself I'm going to have like a bowl of popcorn. And then it's like, oh, there's a piece of cake left, like, I'm going to have that and then maybe I'm going to have a glass of wine, or maybe I'm going to make some hot chocolate. And if a lot of times you just need to go to bed. That's really what you need to do. You know, and then I can also be loneliness like, and I just remember back, like sitting in my apartment, like, you know, maybe a boyfriend broke up with me or whatever. And I just, I would just go to town, I would just eat whatever was in sight to make me feel better. And so there is no satisfaction. When you're eating like that when you are hungry and you eat a meal and you've had proper macros and all that stuff, you feel satisfied with emotional hunger. You don't ever feel like you've had enough because there is really nothing that's going to fill you up. You keep trying to fill your cup up and then afterwards you don't feel good. You feel like crap, because then you've just done the same thing that you wanted to stop for all these years and months and days. Right. So those are the main differences and I do you feel that having somebody over your shoulder when it when you're going through that and when you're first starting to work through that is so necessary because we can just break you know, promises to ourselves all across.

Philip Pape 14:41

Yeah, there's a big, there's a big roadblock, there's a lot of momentum you have to get over right. There's a huge amount of friction there. So you covered a lot of the mechanisms I guess behind emotional eating, many of which are internal or their external reasons. Like the obesogenic environment Western society and food supply how we were raised? Like, what about those some of those things?

Ashley Carlotta 15:03

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, well, we have like endless supplies of food around here, right. And I feel like even even our kids are poor kids, we just, we, we need to be on top of it because any activity they go to, there's candy and sweets and crap anywhere they go, right. So there's that there's the temptations of just having all that around you. But then there's also, we're not getting enough sleep. As a society, most of us don't go to bed on time, get up, feel good, right. And a lot of us are not hydrating enough. And so a lot of times, you'll think you're hungry, when you're not even really hungry, you're just dehydrated. And I and that used to happen for me all the time. Like, I had no idea that there was like, you know, somewhat of an amount that you're supposed to drink throughout the day, especially when you're exercising consistently and stuff like that. It's like sodas, and it's a lot. So there are all these other factors. And then there's also making sure that, you know, self care, it's like that phrase, self care, right. And like you can roll your eyes to and it doesn't need, it doesn't need to be like going in to get a massage, or something like that. But it's pausing and make sure that you've done something for yourself, that sparks joy for you, right, that could even be listening to a podcast right now, while you're driving home. You know what I mean? It could be anything like that, to where you feel like you've been able to relax, and think, because a lot of times we're not thinking, and we've just been so bombarded with everything, and then you get home and you know, you still get get back on your computer, and you just haven't taken time for yourself. And I think especially as busy professionals, even entrepreneurs, right, like, there's always something that could be done. There's, there's always a reason why you could just go to a drive thru, and, you know, skip your workout or whatever. Like for me, I could just go and go and go and work and work and work. But I know that that's against what I teach. And so you have to make things a priority for you. And I feel like that's where a lot of things, it just gets hard because people are not prioritizing these things. Therefore, they're emotionally overwhelmed. They're eating more.

Philip Pape 17:11

No, that's great. There's a lot there. Like you mentioned hydration. So and I've heard that I've heard it said you know that hunger is sometimes thirst right in disguise, and physic the physical hunger and the emotional hunger that you made a distinction between it also sounds like there is there is overlap going on in some cases where you might actually be physically hungry. And then you remark you respond in a way as if you are emotionally hungry, perhaps if you're thirsty or something like that. Yeah. So reducing your stress and getting more sleep. And all these are really good tips for people because people don't realize the huge impact that has on on your stress and your hormones and everything else that then leads to this overwhelm you mentioned. Yeah. So I mean, so can we, can we can we actually eliminate emotional eating itself? Or is that just an abstract concept. And what we're trying to do is work around that end result. You know, like, we're not trying to fix ourselves so much. We're trying to maybe take control and find appropriate ways to plan and manage our lives, knowing that that will happen. What's your take on that?

Ashley Carlotta 18:07

Oh, it's something that I have to work on every single day? Absolutely, yeah. And I can feel it sometimes coming on to like, sometimes in the evenings, it's like, I'll have dinner. And it's almost as if I'm wanting to eat more just to eat, but it is it goes back to what I said. It's just like, you're just wanting to make yourself feel better. In a lot of ways. If you've had a crappy day, like your car broke down, like all these things, and you're wanting to do that, so that you're forgetting about what's going on around you in your life. It's like that's never gonna go away. It does get easier, the more that you practice pausing, and asking yourself, okay, am I physically hungry? Okay, no, then why am I thinking about this? And is there something else that I can do instead? Do I? Do I need some alone time? Do I need to get away from my children for a little bit? Do I need to go outside and walk around the block? Do we need to call a friend and talk about how I'm feeling instead of opening up and getting an ice cream bar out of the fridge? Because I promise you we're going to eat that in like, two minutes. And then you're just going to be on to the next thing. So yeah, it's one of those things that I promise you, you can overcome. And there are going to be setbacks. As you start on your journey, you're not just gonna be able to snap and fix this issue, especially if it's something that you've been doing your entire life. Like, I mean, I had 30 years of doing this. I mean, obviously, it stemmed from even just like a young kid, you know, like, I would always finish all of my food. I sometimes, like looking back, I would eat just as much as my dad would during that time. You had to do that. Yeah, yeah. So you're right. It's just one of those things that you're always gonna have to work out bit by bit and some days are going to be easier than others and there's going to be times in your life when it's a lot harder than other times.

Philip Pape 19:56

You know, we have to acknowledge that and allow for it sounds like and just continue New. I always like to say everyday, everyday is a reset. Right? Whatever happened yesterday in the past doesn't matter. Yeah, I love that it's reset. So like one specific example, you mentioned the ice cream bar in the in the freezer, is one possible technique to just not have that in the house? Or is that is absent and sometimes backfire?

Ashley Carlotta 20:17

Yeah, abstinence can backfire. In the beginning, usually with my clients, I tell them, I don't necessarily want you to clean everything out of your fridge because I do I want you to be able to practice eating when you're hungry and giving yourself a treat, when you feel that it's necessary, because I am I come from very much have a moderation approach because as soon as you were strict, you will not stick to what you're doing. I'm really big on that. Now, if you know, for example, that Doritos are like a trigger, right? Like you wonder Ido and you can't stop. And like seriously, Pringles, I will say for me, especially and I try, I really don't keep that stuff in the house that much. Because it really is true, if I see it, and let's say I'm thirsty, and I haven't had lunch yet or something. As soon as you have one crinkle it is really hard to stop for so so for those things, specifically,

Philip Pape 21:12

I gotta say, I gotta say, the food, the food industry designs that that we actually okay, it's the cylinder you're like, you know, it's just the right amount. They're super light and crispy, like,

Ashley Carlotta 21:22

salty, and they're so good. So in those cases, yeah, I don't necessarily think that that's something that you should keep in your house, if it's going to be something that triggers you time and time again. But for the most part, like if a neighbor, you know, delivers some brownies, right, like, I don't necessarily want you to just go throw them in the trash, right? But you know, have one, enjoy it, if that's your thing. Again, if you really like it, I want you to try it. If it's something that you could care less about, don't waste your calories on eating some, like cranberry roll bar Danish thing that you're like, I don't even like that. Yeah, but you have to set yourself up to succeed, and you can't have a bunch of crap all over the house, especially when you're getting started. And you're trying to be good, because you're just gonna see it, see it, see it, see it, you know, and so it's more about replacing and adding in, you know, drinking more water, adding in more fruits, adding in more vegetables. And then when you're adding all of those good things in and making sure you're getting enough protein, you're not going to be craving all the stuff that you're used to having for you're just gonna be in such a better mindset all the way around.

Philip Pape 22:30

This, you're just speaking right to my heart. They're actually like we're aligned on all this totally. It's exactly the exactly the way I would say to it's so great. The idea of replacing we're not restricting, we're not eliminating, we're putting in the things we need to serve our goals. We need protein if we need fiber or hungry might need fiber. Okay, so I can leave room for the Coke, you know, or whatever. Yeah, yeah. So all that's good strategies, people need to listen to this a few times to really soak it all in. What about so there's a, there's an aspect of motional eating, at least my clients deal with all the time, if you can even call it that. And that is, you know, their day to day routine is locked down. But then they go out on the weekends, right? They go to a party, they go traveling for vacation, and things, things are out of whack, and they are met with all sorts of new foods, lots of foods, maybe a buffet, how do somebody thoughtfully and mindfully plan for those? And especially if you're in like a fat loss phase, right, what are your calories lower?

Ashley Carlotta 23:26

Yeah, that is a fantastic question. And that's something that I work with a lot. What I think the best strategy to do is, is when you're going into a party or a buffet or something like that, to where you know, there's going to be like all these different choices and a lot of foods that you like probably more decadent ones than not, I want you to look at all of your options available to you don't just go in and grab your plate and start going oh, have a little bit that a little bit of that little bit that no, then you're going to fill your plate with way too much. So look at everything. Choose what you know, you should have first have some vegetables or some salad then okay, what protein am I going to have? Do I got steak, chicken fish? What do I have here? Let's put that on there. And then if you want to try some of the other things, maybe a little bit of mac and cheese, I'm totally pretending I'm somewhere right now.

Philip Pape 24:18

Or exactly what your wish was there? Yeah.

Ashley Carlotta 24:22

You know, I'm kind of thinking back to Thanksgiving because we kind of just went through that, but it's like, have a little bit, taste everything. If there's a dessert tray, or you know what I mean? Look at all of them. Choose your favorite habit, enjoy it, and don't drink too much. You got to keep having water in between your drinks. If you're in a fat loss phase, I try to have my clients limit their drinking as much as possible. But I love to have a drink when I go out with my friends when I'm traveling and stuff like that. Drink it slowly, and don't get drunk and don't get buzzed. Because if you do, your inhibitions are out the window and you just don't care and you're not going to be remembering my wife. Oh, yeah, I really want to have more energy for my kids.

Philip Pape 25:03

No, you're right. The the effects of alcohol itself just compounds the whole thing, right? Yeah. Hey, this is Philip Pape. And if you feel like you've put in effort to improve your health and fitness, but aren't getting results, I invite you to apply for a one on one coaching to make real progress and get the body you desire. We'll work together to figure out what's missing. So you can look better, perform better and feel better, just go to wits, & weights.com/coaching, to learn about my program and apply today. Now back to the episode

Ashley Carlotta 25:35

you're traveling. That's something I could talk about for a long time, too. But I will say my biggest tip on that is, even if you're driving or you're flying, wherever you're going bring some of your own food, I have a list of snacks that I send to my clients, it's like make sure that you have like some protein bars, make sure that you're still taking you know, your protein powder, or collagen powder or whatever those things handy. So that you can set yourself up to still succeed when you're traveling when you know you don't know we're going to be going look at the menu ahead of time, whether you're traveling or not, even if you're just going out to dinner, like on a date night or whatever it is, try to look at the menu ahead of time. Don't like get obsessive over it, right? But just so that you can go in saying, Okay, there's these three things I might want to get. I'm gonna see how I feel when I get there. But when I get there, I'm not going to just like totally order something else, because I haven't even thought about it. And now I'm hungry. And now I'm just going to do whatever I want to do. You do have to think ahead. And you don't want to do it. Like I said obsessively in the sense where you're like, oh my gosh, I'm worried I have clients that go oh my god, I'm so worried. I'm going here and I feel like I'm gonna fail. It's like not well, if you're thinking that then you are but no. Okay, let's talk about how do you want to go into this scenario? Do you want to have a salad? And maybe you don't feel like a fella? Then what could you have? Instead, maybe you could order like the chicken and the brussel sprouts with the rice or whatever. And then plan how many drinks that you're going to have, if you are plan how you're going to approach this scenario, if you decide not to have alcohol there, which a lot of us don't. But it's like, you can say no, if your friends are getting a bunch of appetizers, try this. Try this. Try this. You're allowed to say no, and you don't even have to explain yourself and you're probably a you're good good friends, they're probably going to pick at you a little bit, you know, like I mean, and then there's going to be the ones that totally respect you. But there's gonna be a lot of them that are like, Oh, come on, you're fine. You're fine the way you are. Come on, have a loose ball or whatever, or having a great comment. Yeah. And so I've had all of those different relationships around me. And I had to learn that like, I am my own person, I can say no, but I have to go into it. Knowing that I'm going to say know ahead of time instead of us like, oh, okay, whatever. Yeah, I will try this. I'll try this. I'll try this. And then all of a sudden, you're up 700 extra calories. And you know, if you have a goal, you gotta be consistent.

Philip Pape 27:54

Yeah, yeah. And in that scenario, there's something I heard a long time ago, or the way you say it, you can say I choose not to have that instead of I can't have it. I love dieting, say, Oh, I can't have that. No, no, it's I just choose not to have that, you know, I'm gonna have this instead. Okay, so you said a lot of great stuff there, too. One was about limiting, you're limiting your alcohol. For example, one of my clients has struggled with that. And one thing we're trying is keeping an index card with her that that like reminds her she has two drinks limit so that when she's had that first drink, and the buzzer is coming in, it's like, okay, I got one more, right. Yeah. Yeah.

Ashley Carlotta 28:29

Well to that, though, and I sometimes they limit to but you're a, again, you're allowing yourself to have two drinks instead of not having any.

Philip Pape 28:39

So this is actually like your allowance that you can take.

Ashley Carlotta 28:43

Yeah, it's not. But yes, it but at the same time, it is a limited, but it's how you think about it? Yes. Yeah.

Philip Pape 28:50

Yeah. And you mentioned also thinking about what kinds of food you're going to have, like, of course, if you're gonna go to a chain restaurant or something that has menus online, you can you can do that and plan ahead more precisely, but like you said, if you plan to have a salad or lean meat, vegetables, kind of similar to how you would eat at home, but just different options. What came to mind there? Oh, oh, the thought of having just sit through ingredients you can see, right? Because in restaurants, like fats, and fats, and sugars and salts are added in copious amounts that you can't even see. To make it delicious, right? That's their job. So like, if you can see it, you might be better off to who knows? So okay, good. This is this is great stuff. So going back to accountability then and planning and all of these wonderful things. Some people just don't do it. Some people aren't. They aren't accountable. So why not? Why don't they plan ahead and knowing this unit after they listen to your podcast? Most people are not going to do that now. Yeah. Why is that?

Ashley Carlotta 29:52

I would say that people think it's just too hard, and they get overwhelmed, and they feel like is so much work to go to the store, plan what they're going to eat, actually make it actually get to the gym, and they think they don't have time. And the reality is that you have time for what you make time for. And if it's important to you, you will do it. And so a lot of times, I do have clients that come to me that say, I know exactly what I need to do. I know exactly what I need to do, but I need somebody to hold my hand, and I need somebody watching me essentially knocking the cookie out of my hand, you know, and I always tell them, like when we get off our first call, and like, look, this is a partnership. So I can't make you do it, right. But it is going to be a lot easier for you to not make the excuses to yourself, when you know that you have to report to somebody else. And some people just thrive on that not only around just eating, but around just their business in general, you know, or getting things done all that. So I feel that accountability, for me personally, is one of the only ways that I actually get things done, you know, even if it's like my husband asking me to like, take somebody to the post office. Hey, did you take it to the post office? Yeah, I didn't or Nope, I didn't have to thank you for sure. Sometimes we just need the support and the community around us to help us do what we say we're gonna do. Yeah,

Philip Pape 31:28

I mean, that's, that's the big missing piece for people, right? It's hard to go it alone for a lot of different things. And I can't imagine anybody would say everything in my life, I can do it on my own right? There's something like you said, even just your spouse, you might be the person hold you accountable, and you might not even realize it. And that's what's happening. So having that support structure, having a family member or a coach is definitely important. I, you remind me of a client that was making excuses the other day with me, and she's like, I didn't do this because this I didn't do this because it's like, okay, what are we doing going forward? I need you to commit, you know, like, I don't want to hear at all that's it. And she knows she makes those excuses. And that's why she has a coach, at least in the short term. It's so funny. What so then why do you think it's like it's kind of already dresses in terms of living a healthy lifestyle? Without support? You know why it's so hard? I guess we already addressed that. So as far as the making excuses, how do you how do you address that? The example I just gave?

Ashley Carlotta 32:30

Yeah, well, it's funny. So for some of my clients, I only hold them accountable to their fitness. So I have a fitness one a nutrition and fitness. And then I have a nutrition only because some some of my clients are like over exercises to the point where I'm like, You need to tone it down a little bit. But so my clients specifically with fitness, it's so funny, like, they will say, they'll say, Well, I couldn't because this happened and this and then this and then that's like, okay, great. So you have a 30 minute workout to get done. So are you going to stay up later tonight? Or are you going to get up earlier the next day? Or where are you going to fit this in? You know, and they're always like, Ashley okay, yes, you're right. I do want to do it. And I do want to get it in, you know, for that. Now, if it's if it's more tied to like the emotional eating and the binge stuff, that's when I'm like, okay, look, we need to get on the phone. And we need to talk through this. Because we do a lot of texting, you know, I do a lot of check ins and nudges and making sure they're on the schedule and all this stuff. But you do need to talk to somebody through that, you know, if they've had like a really bad day, they'll say, Ashley, like, I totally blew it today, you know, and a lot of that a lot of times, that's because they weren't texting me their food, like they're supposed to be, you know, they were totally ignoring me. And they were in their sorrows or whatever it was. And so we do need to hop on a call. And like you said, I love the reset like we are, we're starting to we're not starting over. We're just, you know, we're restarted again,

Philip Pape 33:58

we're continuing continuing to plan.

Ashley Carlotta 34:01

We're continuing, nothing happened, we're not going to look back like we are just going to have a really good day today. And, again, a lot of times we have to talk through what happens. What happened to make you go

Philip Pape 34:14

off? Cause Analysis there. Yeah.

Ashley Carlotta 34:17

And a lot of times they know once we talk through it, it's like well, I got a call from the doctor. And then my kids teacher emailed me and then this and then they were just so overwhelmed in that in the moment. So yeah, it's just again, it goes back to that having that support and having somebody to talk to about it. Because usually like when we tell ourselves that we're going to start eating better or eat well or go on this diet or take sugar out or whatever it is. I mean, that lasts not long at all if you're just only accountable to yourself, because nobody's checking in on you to see how you're doing and I think we need that.

Philip Pape 34:51

Yeah, and the idea that the accountability being the right type of accountability, something came to my mind. Sometimes some of these fitness apps people use I should say the food tracking apps. I'm not going to name names, but they're often built off the idea that if you screw up, you get called out for it and try to make it up in the next day, right? Yeah, I think you know what I'm saying. And that can be detrimental too. Because I've had clients say, Well, I went over by 1000 calories, so I'm gonna eat 700 calories today and make up for it. Aren't you proud of? Don't do that. Again. It's a reset. We continue to plan as if it didn't happen. Just just execute today to the

Ashley Carlotta 35:29

Yeah, you don't punish yourself for doing bad. Yeah. And that's where we get into it. Because if you punish yourself and you only 700 calories in that one day, what do you think's going to happen to you the next day? Oh, it's Yeah. Yeah.

Philip Pape 35:43

Okay, so here's kind of flipping the scenario completely, maybe a fresh look at things. If I'm taking a client or you're taking a client through a muscle building phase, I assume you have clients that are eating to gain and gain muscle, not just fat loss clients, is that right?

Ashley Carlotta 35:55

Yes. Once in a while, most of the time, though, mine are wanting to lose.

Philip Pape 36:00

Okay, I don't know if this would be relevant or not, because, like, my big focus is strength and muscle building on here. But let's say they've, they've learned a lot of these things that you are teaching and talking about planning ahead, being accountable. And now they have a lot of calories they have to hit every day to gain weight, and they know about fiber, and they're eating really well. In their diet. They're eating well, maintenance, now they have to gain weight. So they might actually start adding some some treats. You know, yeah. Next, yeah. to process food, right? Is it like the mirror image? Because we're now doing it? Or is it a little bit more acceptable? Because we're trying to get enough calories? You know, what I mean? Like, what, what's your take?

Ashley Carlotta 36:38

Well, I think a lot of my clients, when I am trying to get them to eat more, they get, they're so scared to eat more, you know, and I always preface it by saying, I'm not meaning that you need to go eat more crap, or just calories in general, we need to really get you to hit your protein goals. If your goal is to build muscle, we need to make sure that you are having enough carbs stop restricting so much, you know, but yes, that doesn't mean McDonald's carbs. That means like more food in general. And you do and I'm sure you recommend this to your clients as well. But you kind of have to do it on in gradual, because if you're all of a sudden, like, Okay, I want you to eat 1000 more calories. They're like, Oh, shit, how do I do that? You know? But yeah, sometimes they do. They'll be like, Well, I mean, I have like, 300 more today. So maybe I'll do this and that and and like we've said, In moderation, that's fine. But no, not every day. Are you supposed to just like have more ice cream now to get where you?

Philip Pape 37:33

Are isn't? Yeah, it's interesting, because it's, I think about this all time, it's not really a symmetrical problem, because it's more of a logistical thing on the way up, right? That then necessarily emotionally, assuming you've addressed the emotional stuff. Obviously, if you have somebody with a lot of issues, and then you're like, now let's also eat a lot of calories that can be, it can be a problem. Alright, what about, what about the non food behaviors? I think we addressed that a little bit. Things like hydration, movement, strength training, self care. I mean, you kind of addressed that already. Was there anything else you want to add there?

Ashley Carlotta 38:05

Yeah, strength training is big. And I, I'm personally getting into liking it a little bit more. But I used to just do cardio, I dance. And I did like these dance cardio classes. And I would go running, and I would do Orangetheory workouts, which some of those are good, they do have strength training in there. But it's a lot of just like running and rowing and all the things and training is so important. If you are listening to this, you need to and that doesn't mean that you're going to be a bodybuilder. And that doesn't mean that you need to go out and buy all these things. Like you just need a few things to be successful at doing it and you need to be consistent with it. I usually recommend two to three times a week for my clients, even if it's 20 minutes, like if you're going to go for a run. Awesome, do that, but come back and do some strength training too. So that's my big thing on that. A lot of times when I talk to people in the very beginning, I'll ask them, I'll say about how much water do you get in a day? Usually they can answer me for one and for two. A lot of times, it'll be like a two o'clock phone call. And they're like, Oh, I actually haven't even had any water today. But I've had three cups of coffee. So important to drink your water. And one thing that we didn't talk about is like I'm a big believer in having breakfast. Now sometimes people like to have like a late a little bit of a later breakfast like 10 or 11. And I think that's fine as long as you're getting enough calories in the day. But do not skip your first big meal and make sure they're at least getting three meals in like sometimes I'll have clients come to me and say, Well, I usually only eat like one big meal. I'm like, no, no

39:45

faster, right? Yeah. Or sometimes too small

Ashley Carlotta 39:49

meals. And I mean, usually there's no possible way that they're even getting the like 1200 calories at that point

Philip Pape 39:55

or their protein. Yes. 80 grams of protein a meal or something. Yeah. Yeah.

Ashley Carlotta 40:00

So people will come to me in the beginning and say, Well, I mean, I'm just not, I'm just not hungry in the morning. And I'm like, Look, if you are feeling your body well, and you're exercising consistently, you should start to feel hungry in the morning. And it should be within about two hours of waking up like otherwise, you're essentially fasting even longer than what you're, you know, breakfast is your breaking the fast in the morning, and I think 12 hours is important. 12 to 14 hours, but not really more than that. And so that's something I'm big on addressing, and I'll be like, All right, it's 10 o'clock. Like, I haven't seen your breakfast yet. Oh, okay. Like they're just not used to it. What are the other things that we talked about sleep? I know, we all roll our eyes. Because yeah, we could all probably use a little bit more sleep. I know, even me personally, it's like, I get the kids down to bed. My old my older one is like staying up later now. So it's like, he wants to talk to me until 930 At night, and it's like, Dude, I just want two hours to myself. But I know for me, if I don't go to bed by 11, when I wake up, it's just not gonna be good. And then the cravings start, you know, all of those things trigger when you haven't had enough sleep. And you're just not thinking as well either. And so even thinking about like, Oh, what am I going to make for dinner tonight, like, that just feels so overwhelming, because you're exhausted. And you can only focus on one thing at a time. So sleep is so important.

Philip Pape 41:25

It is and just funny. You mentioned sleep because I also, that's one thing, I struggle with that to get like, even seven hours and I'm telling all my clients, they need a lot of sleep. But it is funny how being a coach is a good form of accountability, as you're just like, I need to set a example.

Ashley Carlotta 41:40

I can never stop being a coach now. Because

Philip Pape 41:43

I'll yeah, all dependent on being a coach. Like how can I tell my clients

Ashley Carlotta 41:47

to do this or remind them to do in that if I'm not doing it, so you got to practice what you preach.

Philip Pape 41:52

Alright, one more thing, and then I'll get to my last couple of questions is about strength training. So I'm definitely all about the holistic, or I should say whole body wellness that you talk about here where everything is important. But you also mentioned you have clients that just do nutrition. I'm curious how that how you handle that if they don't do training or exercise? You know, do you still encourage them to do that as part of nutrition? How does that work?

Ashley Carlotta 42:14

Oh, yes. So yeah, on our call, if they are wanting accountability, just for the nutrition, I make sure that they are and have a proper workout plan. And I make sure that they're getting strength training in I mean, I'm not doing it for them, obviously talk about I'd say, this is going to be the assumption that you're doing these things, while I'm holding you accountable to eat well, because a lot of times, you know, people are really good about exercising, and then they eat so badly. And then they it's like they're wasting all not wasting because it's there's other benefits of exercise. But they're putting all this money into these different programs, but they're doing in these gyms, and they're working hard. And they're doing it every day. And they're being really disciplined about that. But they're not seeing any results because they're not eating well. So yeah, a lot of times I feel like for me, exercise is always something that I was really good about doing and I would totally ruin out to be like, I've earned 500 calories yet, so I'm gonna go eat a 2000 Calorie dinner and go.

Philip Pape 43:11

Okay, I was wondering about that. Because I mean, the way I like to put it is, you know, what's more important in a car is if the engine or that fuel does both, right. And so the engine is like your, your, your strength training, you know, is giving you a bigger, powerful, faster engine and your fuels your nutrition, and they go hand in hand. So like, for me, I'm a little bit more hardcore in that my clients all have to be strength training like me. But I was always curious about that, because I have heard coaches that are like, I don't worry about their training. I'm a nutrition coach. And I'm like, I don't think that's a quite the best approach. But okay.

Ashley Carlotta 43:44

Yeah, one thing I have clients that come to me through some of these other programs, and I won't name names, but if you're told on a program that you shouldn't be exercising for the first two weeks, or the month, red flag, like nothing's gonna be telling you that you can't exercise and that means that you're probably not getting near enough calories. So just know that.

Philip Pape 44:04

Yeah, so much stuff out in the fitness industry, we could like, talk about. Alright, so this is the penultimate question. I like to ask everyone, and that is, what one question Did you wish I had asked, and what is your answer?

Ashley Carlotta 44:17

Yeah, I would say probably, why should someone invest in their in themselves? And why should somebody invest in a coach? And my answer to that would be that you do need to have I feel like some skin in the game. You know, if you're not putting like money on the table to say that you're going to do something, you're probably not going to do it. You know what I mean? It has to be a little bit scary. Anything that you go into where you're trying to create change is going to be a little bit scary because you kind of have doubts in yourself, right? Like, am I really going to do this? Am I really going to do this this time? But if you're reaching out just like for example, working with a therapist, right Seems like something is going on in your life that you need help for, and you're at the point where you're gonna go get help for it. And you're not just gonna go to a therapist for free. So as health coaches, we are not therapists, but we are there to support you and encourage you and keep you on track. And it is an investment, and you are worth the investment. But you have to know that within yourself. And so, a lot of times people will say, you know, they'll, they'll ask me for my price, like, upfront, like before even asking like about how our coaching works and stuff. And it's like, well, let's talk about you first. And let's talk about what you need. And let's talk about while you're even interested in this, before we even go into the pricing, you know, what do you mean, because you can work around your financial situation to do anything that you want to do if it's really important to you. And within reason, obviously. But yeah, you've got to invest in you have to ask for health if you're in that cycle that you can't get out of, because otherwise you're just gonna stay there.

Philip Pape 46:02

There you go. I mean, what's more important in life than your health? Right? Yeah. So I mean, the stuff people pay for and pay lots of money for that. Don't get them anything. And importance of your health. Yeah, so that's, that's excellent. Ashley, this has been awesome. Oh, the last question, of course, is, where can listeners find out more about you and your work? Sure.

Ashley Carlotta 46:23

Yeah. If you're interested in my one on one coaching at all, my website is better health by accountability.com. And I have a little freebie on there for you if you want to learn how to live like a normal person while still living losing weight without dieting. So go grab that. And then I hang out mostly on Instagram, at Better health by accountability. And I'm really good about getting back to messages and stuff. So just come say hi, and if you have any questions, and I'd love to help you.

Philip Pape 46:49

Awesome. I'm gonna share all that stuff. And as we were getting ready for the podcast, Ashley was super responsive. And I've checked out all her her information and material and definitely encourage you to go check out her website. Better health by accountability.com. Yes, no, that's okay. And her Instagram handle at better health. By accountability. It's all consistent. So all right, I want to thank you for coming on the show to talk about what I think is critical, really important topic, maybe the heart of this whole coaching thing and how people get their results in success, and also for helping make an impact in the world. Thank you. Yeah. Well,

Ashley Carlotta 47:23

I appreciate you having me on here and keep doing your good work. And I'm gonna keep looking at all your reels that you do, because they're great.

Philip Pape 47:30

Awesome. Yeah. There's plenty of podcast episodes, too. That's my preferred format is the long form. Yeah. So All right. Thanks for coming on the show. Ashley. All right. Have a good day. Thanks for listening to the show. Before you go, I have a quick favor to ask. If you enjoy the podcast, let me know by leaving a five star review in Apple podcasts and telling others about the show. Thanks again for joining me Philip Pape in this episode of Wits & Weights. I'll see you next time and stay strong.

Philip Pape 3/10/23 Philip Pape 3/10/23

Ep 51: Mental Resilience and Commitment to Training Despite Adversity (Earthquakes!) with Heather Clinger

I’m joined by my client Heather Clinger, a wife and mother of 5 currently homeschooling her children in Turkey. She is passionate about teaching and creating music and is enjoying learning how to lift heavy things. I met Heather 4 months ago when she reached out for one-on-one nutrition coaching to improve her body composition, get stronger, and build muscle. Most importantly, she wanted to FEEL her best and set an example for her kids of achieving results through hard work and committing to a sustainable process.

Today I’m joined by my client Heather Clinger, a wife and mother of 5 currently homeschooling her children in Turkey. She is passionate about teaching and creating music and is enjoying learning how to lift heavy things.

I met Heather 4 months ago when she reached out for one-on-one nutrition coaching to improve her body composition, get stronger, and build muscle. Most importantly, she wanted to FEEL her best and set an example for her kids of achieving results through hard work and committing to a sustainable process.

Despite constant upheaval for her and her family during the recent earthquakes in Turkey, Heather found the mental resilience, commitment, and strength to continue her training and maintain her fitness routine as one way of coping with such a stressful situation.

Through us working together, Heather has been mastering strength training, nutrition, and mindset for several months, both through a muscle-building phase and now a fat loss phase. But the change in her strength and body composition are just a small part of what she’s learned and the practices she’s developed that give her a resilient, positive, and sustainable outlook on life.

In this episode we talk about her experience during the earthquakes, our nutrition coaching journey together, and specific lessons and strategies YOU can use to stay focused on getting results.

You'll learn all about:

What Heather struggled with and had tried before working with a coach
Why she reached out for one-on-one coaching
What surprised Heather when she started working with a coach
Her strength training routine and what she learned from training
What happened on February 6, 2023
How the earthquake affected her training routine
Why Heather didn't take a break from training despite everything going on
How working with a coach was beneficial during this crazy time
Living the best version of you; aspiration and hard work
How Heather's habits and mindset around food have changed
Unexpected benefits or changes in other areas of her life
Advice for someone who is hesitant about hiring a nutrition coach

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At Wits & Weights, Certified Nutrition Coach and Body Composition Expert Philip Pape helps high-achieving people use their wits to build their body, reclaim their time, and gain control over food through one-on-one nutrition and lifestyle coaching.

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Transcript

Philip Pape 00:08

Welcome to the Wits & Weights podcast, where we discuss getting strong and healthy with strength training and sustainable nutrition. I'm your host, Philip pape, and in each episode, we examine strategies to help you achieve physical self mastery through a healthy skepticism of the fitness industry, and a commitment to consistent nutrition and training for sustainable results. Welcome to another episode of Wits & Weights. We are streaming this live in our free Facebook community. So if you want early access to these types of episodes, and you haven't joined yet, just go to the link in the show notes. Alright, today I'm joined by my client Heather clinger, a wife and mother of five, currently homeschooling her children in Turkey. She's passionate about teaching and creating music, and is enjoying learning how to lift heavy things of that. I met Heather four months ago, and she reached out for one on one nutrition coaching to improve her body composition get stronger and build muscle. Most importantly, she wanted to feel her best and set an example for her kids of achieving results through hard work and committing to a sustainable process. Despite constant upheaval for her and her family during the recent earthquakes in Turkey, Heather found the mental resilience, commitment and strength to continue her training and maintain our fitness routine as one way of coping with such a stressful situation. Through us working together. Heather has been mastering strength training, nutrition and mindset for several months, both through a muscle building phase and now a fat loss phase. But the change in her strength and body composition are just a small part of what she's learned, and the practices she's developed that give her a resilient, positive and sustainable outlook on life. So today, we're talking about her experience during the earthquakes, our nutrition coaching, journey together, and specific lessons and strategies you can use to stay focused on getting results. So Heather, after that long introduction. I've been looking forward to this. And thank you for your courage and coming on to share your story.

Heather Clinger 02:03

Hi, Philip. Yeah, thank you. Thank you for inviting me here today. I hope that the things I share can be helpful to others.

Philip Pape 02:11

Yeah, they definitely will. I'm really excited for the conversation. And I want to start with your story. Like who is Heather cleaner? And then specifically, what were you struggling with? And what had you tried before we met? And before we started working together?

Heather Clinger 02:27

Okay, so I think when I when I look back at like, where did my struggle start? And what were my struggles, I have this memory in my head that I'm pretty sure I was 12 Right. And I walked into this dressing room, and I put on this skirt, knowing that it was gonna look so cute, just like the model on the, you know, the picture. And, and I looked down and the skirt didn't go straight down like it did, you know, on the advertisement that I saw it and I kept, you know, pushing on my thighs wheeling that skirt to look the way that it did on that model. And I think that was just the beginning of a very long, you know, when I wasn't a happy kid, even right, it was just me deciding what my body should look like, and then deciding that it didn't look like that. And just very subjectively, right. And just starting on this long road of trying to you know, beat my body into submission through really rigorous exercise regimens or really strict dieting, and then falling into depression when it didn't and eating my way back into oblivion.

Philip Pape 03:40

So, yeah, that that I mean, and you're definitely not alone in that kind of, of history and background that you struggled. It sounds like it wasn't just physical, right? A lot of it was mental. It was beating yourself up and thinking that this was the standard that you had to strive for. And of course, then it leads to this psychosis of constantly, quote unquote, failing to do that, right.

Heather Clinger 04:02

Yeah, it really is. I mean, because there's nothing that that told me how my body should look. Right? It was, I mean, you can get messages from society or, you know, TV and advertisements and things like that. But there really are, you know, so many beautiful, unacceptable bodies out there. And I just decided on my own that mine wasn't one of them.

Philip Pape 04:25

And then what so let's tie that into the last year. So before just before we met and started working together, what was the moment where you said to yourself, I really need to do something different, or I need to reach out to a coach. Yeah,

Heather Clinger 04:40

I had been sort of, on my own, trying different things. The last country that we lived in, my husband is in the State Department and so we get to live a lot of different places. And the last time we moved and in moving is always just this Crazy mental struggle for me, you know, I, I like to teach, but I lose my students when we move. I love music, but I lose my instruments, you know, for periods of time when we move. And in the last country that that we had been in, I, you know, went off the rails getting all sorts of weight, and I decided that I was food addict and joined food addicts. Okay, I sort of separated myself from that, after a while and decided that while it was super helpful for many people to you know, accept that in themselves, I found it to be sort of a limiting belief that I didn't want, you know, I felt like it made me more scared of food and I wanted to be, you know, free of those feelings. And so, anyway, I had been trying all these things on my own, and really felt like, you know, maybe I'd start going back to CrossFit get into some, like, regimen that would help me be strong. I loved, you know, lifting weights at CrossFit. I always felt sort of, wrung out at the end of it. Oh, yeah.

Philip Pape 06:02

Then they're

Heather Clinger 06:05

really hard. But I felt, you know, awesome, at the same time. And so just trying to decide, like, what, what is next? What is it that I'm missing? Right, I'm okay with my weight ish. But, but I'd like to be strong, you know, and right around that time trying to figure out what it was that I wanted. Next, my cousin entered a bodybuilding contest, and, you know, cousins, similar genes, sort of, you know, and, and I saw her pictures, and I was just blown away, like, are you serious? That's my, I mean, she's always been beautiful, but her body definitely looked strong. Right. And she did really well in her contest. And I was just so impressed. And I sort of reached out to her to get some clues. And I started listening to weightlifting podcasts, and realizing that, you know, there was something else out there. And you asked, When I reached out to you for coaching, right? That was

Philip Pape 07:06

all of this stuff is colors, the picture really nice. I like I like, there's questions that I have for you out of this, we keep going. Sure.

Heather Clinger 07:13

Okay, so, so then I, after listening to all these podcasts, I was like, you know, what, it's, I would love to have a coach, I need a coach and my husband was on board with it. But the thing was, is I knew that in the next couple of months, we were planning to move again. And I was like, Well, that would be a terrible idea, right? I'm not going to pay all this money to get into a program that I know I'm gonna have to put on hold. But I do want to keep weightlifting. And I promised myself that as soon as we got to Turkey, which is where we were moving, that I was going to get a coach, and why. Yeah, so we got to Turkey and some of the podcasts, I was listening to had coaching programs that weren't available, but they were, you know, going to come up and I was sort of waiting for a space to open in one of those. And meanwhile, I was getting all these questions. And I really had three questions. And I should go back in my email and find out what those questions were. Because I can't remember right now.

Philip Pape 08:11

I remember that conversation. Yeah. I remember the questions. All right. Yeah, we have to revisit that.

Heather Clinger 08:18

Well, one of them was about my training split, right? Because I was doing an arm day, a leg day rest an arm day and a leg day, I think is what sort of my training split was.

Philip Pape 08:30

I don't want any one of our protein to or were they all just were they all about lifting or? Yeah,

Heather Clinger 08:36

remember. But anyway, I had these three questions that I had written down in an email that was helping me to keep track of my like fitness stats. And I found a new podcast that morning. And you were the guest on that podcast. And you answered all three of my questions in the podcast, and then at the end, advertised that you were coaching. And I was like, he's coaching. And so I emailed you and the

Philip Pape 09:06

rest is history. Isn't that amazing how life works? Right? And I remember having that conversation and thinking that was that was just so wonderful. Because the podcasting world I mean, there's tons of shows, and there's a lot you can learn, but sometimes certain things resonate with you. And the more you listen, the more you you have a chance of that happening. Going back rewinding a little bit to your story. So first, on the food side you mentioned food addicts and how you kind of this controlled structured system actually felt restrictive to you, right?

Heather Clinger 09:38

Yeah. Yeah, and in the food addicts I did. I did. I just felt like there was so much fear surrounding food. I found another group. They were the bright line eaters who I felt like their their way through it was a lot more positive. But I just felt like there had to be something More, right? Yes. Yeah, it wasn't me so controlled by food all the time. And actually, like, I think if you'd asked me like, What what did you know? My husband would tell you like, what is Heather's like, biggest goal? And he'd probably say, well, she wants to eat whatever she wants, and look, what's right. doesn't want that. But it was interesting, because I started listening to these, you know, mommy muscle building podcasts. And, and they would say things like, and I would eat the things that I want. Right, right. And yeah, and I get the body that I wanted. And so I was definitely intrigued.

Philip Pape 10:40

Yeah, and you talked about the bodybuilding as well, which we talked about occasionally on this show, you know, the pursuit of something like bodybuilding, it's a very, it's an extreme performance or aesthetic goal, right, that most people don't want, or if they think they want when they realize what it takes, it's, they kind of turn the other way say, No, I'd rather be lifestyle lean by actually being a bodybuilder and getting to that extreme leanness, but a lot of the techniques they use to control their physique and their nutrition do have a lot of carryover with just what the everyday person can use to do the same. Is that Is that what you found from that?

Heather Clinger 11:17

Oh, definitely. Yeah, I'm not sure that I ever entered this with the idea that I needed to be in a bodybuilding competition. I think I've wanted to do pull ups for a long time. And I wanted a better back squat. I, I'm afraid that my you know, the times that I had to bail, a CrossFit, you know, really low weights are sort of seared into my head. blasting through those, you know, low PRS is definitely, you know, change that in my head. Oh, yeah.

Philip Pape 11:50

Oh, yeah. I love that. And that's, that's part of what we're going to talk about here today is the whole mindset of performance and building and gaining as opposed to, you know, this restricting and trying to necessarily lose weight, even though that could be a pleasant side effect of the nutrition side. So going back to going back to when we started working together, because I want to walk people through the process until some of the recent excitement you've had is what surprised you or did anything surprise you at the time?

Heather Clinger 12:20

Oh, gosh. So when I think back to when we first started, I, I almost feel a little bit silly, because I think that the thing that surprised me the most was that you asked me to do things differently. Right? And he would think well, yeah, like, Isn't that why you got to coach? And it makes me wonder, you know, what did I want? It's like, I wanted you to look at all the hard things that I'd been doing, right? I'd been tracking my macros, and I'd been working out and I wanted you to look at me and say, oh, yeah, it's just not working for you, you must be broken, or, you know, it mean, it's not what I wanted. And I think that it's really eye opening to me to look back to that experience. And be really grateful that you didn't say those things. And instead, yeah, you asked me to track differently. You asked me to work out differently. I was so annoyed when you asked me to get a different tracking app. I know, you know that. Yeah. And, and using the different tracking app has changed me and my habits and my thought processes so dramatically. And yeah, I'm just I'm so grateful.

Philip Pape 13:36

I love that. So I mean, yeah, like, like you said, it's not it's not that you are are the issue that we have to fix you, we have to do it differently, right, we have to take a different approach. And sometimes a coach or another person, period, whatever it is, it could be. It could be a friend, somebody you respect, it could be a podcast host, it could be somebody who wrote a book, it doesn't matter, gives you that fresh perspective. And the question is, are you going to do it? You know, are you going to take that action? And is it even the right thing to do? Right? Because a lot of people struggle with, could should do I believe this person is are they telling me the right thing? Right, like CrossFit was the answer one time, right. And, and so you kind of had to, you had to trust me as part of this process. And then I, but you are great. I mean, as a client, you just you do things and you execute, which is like the number one thing that gets you to make progress and get results. So that's really cool. All right. So talking about strength training. What is your routine look like right now? Just so the listener gets an idea, like, what does it look like? How are you progressing? What are you learning from it?

Heather Clinger 14:43

Right? I think that what I've really learned from strength training, and shrink training with you is is really what progress looks like and what it takes to progress. Because in a lot of ways what I've had to learn And is patience. Right? I think I think my, well, no. Okay, so with, yeah, sometimes it can seem like, you know, we've been working together since October. And that can seem like a really long time. I had this nutritionist that I was working with back at CrossFit when I used to do CrossFit, and she is absolutely amazing. And she had just had a baby. And now it's been four years since that point. And she posted a picture the other day saying, I finally you know, gotten back the body that I want. And, and I was thinking about this woman who is just incredible. But being patient for four years, right. But at the same time, like, if I thought I would look anything like her and be able, and, you know, not even look like her, but be able to do what she does with her body. In four years, it would totally kill it, you know, like, three times a week, like I'm doing counting my macros, like I'm doing, you know, for four years. But at the same, so, but at the same time, I think that, you know, I was not new to exercise, right. And I wasn't used to a lot of the things that we were doing. But so I thought that I sort of had a grasp on my own physical limits. But I was really pleasantly surprised at how quickly my back squat and deadlift, like progressed, right. I remember the first time I couldn't deadlift 200 pounds, right. And, and it was, it was like, one of the first what was the first fail, I got to my deadlifts like they had just gone up and up and up. And I was like, Wow, that's amazing. And then one day, I couldn't do 200. And I was like, Well, I guess that's it,

Philip Pape 16:43

you reached the end.

Heather Clinger 16:47

reached the end. And now like 200 is just one of my steps on my warmup. Right? And

Philip Pape 16:52

exactly, that's awesome. Oh, just just sit with that. I mean, people need to hear this, right. Because you're saying that you you've done, you've done CrossFit, you've lifted barbells you are fitness oriented, maybe an athletic person. And yet there was this whole new level of strength that you hadn't experienced before. Just because you tweaked the weight the process? Yeah, totally. Yeah, no, that's great. So what have you learned from the fact that your body can do these things?

Heather Clinger 17:27

Let's see. I think that Well, I think that it totally crosses over into other areas of my life. Right? That just that things do take hard work, right. And practice and patience, but that they're totally possible.

Philip Pape 17:43

Yeah. Yeah, they are. Yeah. And, you know, hard work is part of it. For sure. Patience is part of it. But most importantly, you did the work. You did the work. So that's going really well. Now, a month ago, on February 6 2023, something happened on that date. Tell us what that is.

Heather Clinger 18:03

Watch, I can't even believe that. It's part of me is like, wow, that was only a month ago. And, and part of me is like, wow, it's a month ago. So on February 6, about 417. In the morning, my husband and I woke up to our building, just being violently slammed. Like I, we've lived in California, we've lived in South America and are familiar enough with earthquakes. And this was just violent. And I kept telling myself, I'm gathering my children and telling myself to breathe, and it's almost over. And this one just felt like it didn't end. We just kept going and going. And it did finally end, you know, but I, I remember getting my shoes on. But other than that, and I sort of remember my kids walking around, and I think my six year old laying back down on his bed, and I sort of looked at him like, I don't know if that's what we should be doing. But my brain wouldn't work. Like I'm pretty sure now that I was in shock. Until all of a sudden my daughter my 13 year old comes in and says Mom, did you see the cracks in the walls, and I look up and there are cracks in our apartment building. And all of a sudden my brain turns back on and I say get your shoes, get the dog get out, get out, get out, get out. And we had all gotten to the stairwell with our things. My kids even had their little like emergency packs that my husband so wonderfully helped them put together. When we first moved here, and right as we got to the stairwell, the building started to shake again. And I think at that moment, I had this you know, I'm looking at the already our building has cracks in it. And I'm just thinking we've lost our chance and it's because of my inability to to function there. During an emergency, and we're going to, you know, my kids are going to die. And the building started eating again, it stopped shaking, and we got out, my husband needed to go check in at the consulate. And so we went. And we just sat at the consulate, you know, some of my kids were able to sleep and I just couldn't. It was, we were getting all sorts of texts from people all over the place. That, you know, we're looking for family members, we were hearing about downed buildings. Even in our city, we found out that the epicenter was, you know, 100 or more miles away. And knowing you know, how violently we had been shaken, just worrying about those people at the epicenter of the earthquake. And the Marines sort of made some space for us at the consulate, and we were just in this room that was on the ground floor. It was a tent, they call it, the tent, I think, and it had a, like a TV and a heater and a frigerator, and a couch, and we sort of just sat there feeling numb. And there was even another aftershock later in the afternoon, and I just knew that I couldn't sit there anymore. I, I was just so you know, concerned about what was we didn't feel in danger at that moment. Right? We knew that there were so many people outside of that little tent that were in danger. And it was just really hard to just sit there not knowing you know, what was going on and what to do and how to help. And all of a sudden, I you know, I was trying to figure out what could my kids do besides just sit here like, glued to these movies. And I realized that the consulate was where I had been working out. When we first moved to Turkey. We found a gym right next to our apartment, actually, a few months later, but for a few months, when I first started working with you, I would drive every day, go to the consulate get in my workout in their fantastic little gym, and remembering Okay, so the gym is here. And I and it's Monday, I go to the gym on Mondays, and so I went to the gym. So, I mean,

Philip Pape 22:27

so there's so much the process there and what it's incredible, because first it sounds like you felt like you could die, right when it happened when you're in the building.

Heather Clinger 22:38

Right? And that seems sort of dramatic now. But I didn't write seeing the cracks in the building. And yeah,

Philip Pape 22:46

I tell you how I mean that I can't imagine. So and then you got to the the embassy, right? And now you felt safe. But you're still worried about all the other people and we know how horrible those earthquakes were seeing that in the news. And then you're like, Well, what do I do next? I mean, at the same time, we have to we have to live and we have to do something and move forward with the acknowledgement that these things are still happening. And you know, you made a comment that it's you said Monday, right? When you go to gym, you said it's Monday on Mondays I go to the gym, almost said it was just part of your part of your routine. It's not even something you question.

Heather Clinger 23:26

Were four months and now five months in, I go to the gym on Mondays.

Philip Pape 23:31

What if someone were to say, Well, how could you How could you think about going to the gym when all this was happening? What would be your answer?

Heather Clinger 23:38

fright? I mean, I think that I was still sort of in shock mode. So everything I did was just sort of, I don't know why I did it. I just did because most of the time I wasn't doing anything. We were just sitting on the couch. We were waiting for my husband to get done with work and I felt, you know, when we first decided, okay, we're just gonna sit here. We only brought one car, my husband's working when he's done, we'll go home. And then the aftershock hit and I was like, Oh, actually, we're not. We're not going home. I even imagined being back up in that building when the earth is still shaking. And

Philip Pape 24:14

it sounds like the earthquake which was a huge disruption to so many things. In parallel with that you wanted to at least maintain the things that were a part of your routine. It's kind of the way my interpretation right is you've got this thing that's part of your life and who you are and maybe even helps you cope. And so you just did it it's as opposed to an escape. It's a thing that you do, right.

Heather Clinger 24:37

Right. I when when I was under the you know, I did my I went went and did my my workout. Right and it was usually takes me a pretty good time to get through our current program like an hour and an hour and a half. And after that hour, and however many minutes I really I see that for the first time that day, I hadn't been scared of, you know, earthquakes, right. I hadn't been thinking about, is the ground still moving? Or is that just in my head? Right? And it was so nice, right? It wasn't and stressful, right? Because working out can be stressful, right. But it was a different kind of stress. And my body and my mind needed something different just for a few minutes. And I think that that was a really powerful moment for me to realize, oh, so this is what working out can be right now. Right?

Philip Pape 25:35

Yeah. Part of your emotional fitness, not just your physical fitness. Yeah. That that's a wonderful message for people because I think I think a lot of working out in people's minds is some intense, brutal, beating up of our body that we don't look forward to. And you know, you've made it part of your ritual part of your you know, there's a phrase that I hear used occasionally called voluntary hardship, the idea of doing this hard thing, because there's a bigger thing that comes out of it, that's positive, right? Like the actual getting the squat done can be extremely intimidating and nerve racking, right to where you almost want to back out, and you just do it, and that creates this resilience. I mean, I'm just telling you most of my opinion here, I'm not so much asking a question, but I'm, I'm getting that vibe from you. Is that right?

Heather Clinger 26:29

Definitely. Yeah, definitely. Well, and, and it wasn't like, I even thought like, this is gonna make me a more resilient person, like, let's go to the gym and be awesome today. That is a good thing to think sometimes, but I think it was more, I was able to recognize in that moment, something helpful, right? Something sort of necessary for me in so many different ways. And, and I was grateful to be able to access it.

Philip Pape 27:00

Heather Clinger 27:35

usually, my workouts consist of, of back squats, and warming up to a three times five set. Rep so so 15 of whatever that goal weight is that I'm working on that day. The same thing with either bench presses or overhead barbell lifts. And then same thing with deadlifts. But up to a just a five. Rep. Excellent.

Philip Pape 28:09

Yeah, so super simple, right? You're just doing big compound movements and, and have made a ton of progress. Yeah, exactly. Simple and effective. Not easy. But that's part of the joy. The benefit of it is that it's hard, at least in my opinion, and I think in yours as well. All right, so let's pivot a little bit. So as your nutrition coach, I have the pleasure each week of seeing your check in, right, you check in with a forum where you answer a bunch of questions. And you're very detailed in a very interesting perspective, is the way I put it in your form, you know, different clients have all different levels of detail they like to share. And you mentioned to me that just the act of writing down your wins, your lessons, your roadblocks, and so on are I think I think you've said their therapeutic. And that's just one example. So I mean, maybe tell me a little bit more about that. And also how working with a coach has just benefited you overall, through that process during this craziness.

Heather Clinger 29:03

Right? So because I think that it would be really easy for me to have said, you know, Philip, I can't do this right now. Right? We haven't. We haven't really gone home as a family. We've tried it a couple of times being in back in our apartment, and then we again, and we've been traveling and we have actually moved apartments for a little while and it would be really easy for me to have just said I can do this right now. And nobody would have questioned that. I don't think that you would have questioned that. You would said you don't do what you need to do for you and your family. But I think I was lucky that I realized early on that this is what I needed to do. I think and and like you said one of the most important things that I have done for my my training but also for my Mental Health was, you know, the kind of check ins that you require me to do every week, not only, like, keep me accountable, you know, and I know I'm gonna have to report to Philip, you know what happened that day when you didn't get your protein or you know. But I started noticing very quickly that when I checked in the kinds of questions that you asked, you know, about my sleep, about my training, about my digestion, about my water about, you know, all these things, we're all you know, every time I filled in a new swear it was earthquake, earthquake, earthquake, earthquake, earth quake, and it wasn't hard to realize that, you know, the earthquake was affecting all of these areas of my life, and that I needed to process that and checking in with you and filling out those questions was just so therapeutic and really helped me to, to understand better what I was feeling. You know, I had been through something that was really scary. And that was hard for me to talk about with anybody else, because so many other people had been through things that were way scarier. Right. I've, besides knowing people who who have family members that didn't make it out, right, I heard a story last week about some people that were visiting in the hotel that they were in, they were afraid they couldn't, they couldn't get out their door. And in their building was like, you know, crumbling, and it was the aftershock that like shook the door free, and they were able to kick their door out and get out of the building. You know, I mean, and so I'm not the one that's been through the scariest thing. And so sometimes that can, you know, hold you back from really, you know, talking about the things that were scary for you, right, because you don't want to, you know, diminish anybody else's, you know, scary stories, or whatever, or be compared at all. And this was just for me, right to take some time and to write out my feelings, and to be able to process what I had gone through and how it was still impacting my life. And I'm just so grateful, I hope that I will always do something similar to this check in even if I, if I don't work with, you know, a coach or with you forever, I hope that I will always do something like that.

Philip Pape 32:23

Something something like a journal. Yeah, definitely. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, that's amazing. The comment about not wanting to compare yourself to others. I think it's something all of us feel, honestly. And what's interesting is from an outsider's perspective, from someone who's safe over here in the US where I didn't have to deal with the earthquakes, I think, by comparison to me, I'm thinking this is incredible trauma you had to go through. And so we don't, you know, we try not to compare ourselves, but we do, it just happens naturally. And I'm glad that you had an outlet and somebody that could almost look through it in a in a somewhat cold calculated way. Because, you know, I don't, my personality isn't one to necessarily dwell on things. I think you've learned that by now. And, you know, even I've been trying to listen more and learn how to deal with different personalities. But I'm not a therapist either. So my mindset is, let's just take action and move forward through things. But at the same time, we have to acknowledge the things. So it's funny, you mentioned that if, if you had said in the checkout, hey, all this stuff is happening. So therefore, I'm not going to do any of this. You're right, that I would have said you need to focus on you. You need to focus on your family, if that's what, but at the same time, I probably still would have tried some way to motivate you to do some of this, right. So all right. Now, what, here's a couple things, I hope you don't get a little personal. This whole thing is personal, of course. But when we started, you said something to the effect of you're a young, healthy, beautiful mom, but somehow mirrors and pictures don't always believe you. Okay, and we can edit this out of you. But, but I love how you acknowledged the health and vibrancy and have that positive mindset while recognizing there's something that you wanted to change, right? And this whole process is about change. Life is about change. So how do you feel about that sentiment now?

Heather Clinger 34:22

Who I think you know, that one is a day at a time. Or, or just try not to think too much about it. You know, I think bulking was definitely the most like humbling experience that I've had to go through. I but at the same time, what goes so it's sort of funny, right? Because for the first time in my life, I'm technically trying to gain weight, right? But at the same time, I'm scared of gaining weight, you know. So it sort of just by default need getting on the scale of much more neutral experience, right? Because I'm supposed to be gaining weight. But if I don't, it's all great. But if I do, it's okay. Right. Yeah. So I think that that became more neutral. I think seeing myself. I mean, I had like two things that fit for a while there. And they weren't the most attractive things. And I kept thinking, Okay, well, I need to buy more clothes, but I'll probably do it from Amazon. And that'll take me, you know, forever for it to get to me over here in Turkey. So what's the point? They'll be in a cut by then, you know, or? And so I just had forced me to say, but that's what you're supposed to look like right now. Right? You're building muscle under, you know, whatever else is there? And I don't know, I still don't think that I looked in the mirror and said, Wow, you're smoking, you know, or anything like that. But I did know that I was doing things that I was proud of. And I knew that my kids and my husband were proud of me. And you know, and if I'm honest, you know, I sort of knew going into coaching and doing a bulk that, well, I'm in Turkey, and I don't know anyone, you know, nobody's made. And, but you know, what, I had family visit. And I didn't, I didn't care, right? They knew I was the gym, they knew that I was happy. And we had a wonderful time. And yeah, and I felt healthy and, you know, strong.

Philip Pape 36:31

So yeah, I love that you touched on so many things that we went through, because at the beginning, we had to have that conversation about what do we start with in terms of nutritional periodization. So let's come phrase we talk about a lot, which is you don't want to be in a diet forever, or even very long. But you also have to spend time the other direction building muscle, and that requires feeding yourself. And I do have clients where it's like a battle to get them to eat enough, which, you know, might seem crazy to certain people, but it's true. And you're gonna get there like you recognize it sounds from your language that the physical manifestation on any given day is kind of irrelevant. And it's really the overall progress and process you're going through, right. And I saw that in your check ins when you would start to focus a lot on your lifts, right? You focus on your lifts and said, My biggest win this week is my squat went up. And and then our discussion was, well, that means you're getting stronger and building muscle. And so when the fat loss phase comes, which you're being patient about and decided prioritize, in what I'll say the optimal or most effective way, which is to build muscle first, you're gonna benefit tremendously from that. And we just started that, right? We just started the fat loss phase. So people listening? No. And maybe we'll have to do a follow up after that. Yeah, so cool. Now, you also alluded to the fact that you are proud, and you made your family proud. And that was another comment you had early on, if I recall that you wanted your kids to see your hard work pay off. Right. So it sounds like you feel that's happening.

Heather Clinger 38:02

Right? I'm a musician. And I feel like, I know the benefits of practicing. Right. But sometimes I feel like a lot of the crazy things that I've tried to do to get my body to change or to obey or have not resulted, you know, I felt like I was working hard. But they haven't left me with the long term results that that I felt like should have come from, you know, all of that work. And I wanted them to see me doing hard work that paid off. Right. And that work is worth what you put into it, you know? And yes,

Philip Pape 38:46

so awesome. So, so a lot has changed then and your mindset has shifted in that regard. What about food? Right? Let's let's just talk food. we've alluded to a few times have your habits. Has your mindset around food changed? And how do you think it's impacted your progress and your goals?

Heather Clinger 39:03

Definitely. I think before when I was doing my diets, it was like, well, once I get down to my goal weight, I'll be so excited to be there that it will give me the motivation to stay and I'll be really able to be strict. Right? It was like that's what I was looking forward to was this life of deprivation so that I could look a certain way. And now because we started with a bulk and because I was eating so many fantastic calories. Right? And you know, we just moved to a new country, right? I was not going to not try the foods, right? Yes. And have those experiences, you know, being here in a new country. And, you know, eating at my higher calories and building my muscles definitely gave me the flexibility to do that. And now I know that even though I'm not eating as many calories, and I am going to cut that I'm not looking forward to staying at these, you know, calories forever, I'm looking forward to going back to maintenance and even to another bulk. Right, that this short term, this is not for a very long time, it's going to give me some results that I want. And then I'm going to go back to doing other things for my body. And I think that that is, oh, it's just so new. For me.

Philip Pape 40:28

I love it. So the idea that in the past, when you thought you were done with the diet, you would then stay at this let baseline level of moderate restriction forever, versus

Heather Clinger 40:41

admitted that to myself, ever admit, well, then you're just sentencing yourself to this craziness for forever, but we don't want to admit that because we exactly know I'm going to reach my goal. If you have to. Right. Yeah, this desperate that you use up being honest with yourself, really, I think

Philip Pape 41:00

it's true. And people should ask themselves that question of, is what I'm doing today, when I'm done with it sustainable? Or what am I going to do when I'm done with it, because you know, 95% of people getting all their weight back and you're you're going, you're going to be in the top 5% You are, you are already from that you know what to do now to be in that top 5%, where you have that control. And you're right, after we're done through a fat loss phase, your calories are gonna come way up. And you can do that without gaining weight, or you can intentionally gain weight, for the right reasons, right to build muscle. So it's great. Yeah. Any, were there any other unexpected benefits or changes in, in anything in any areas of your life from this process?

Heather Clinger 41:43

Let's see. I think, you know, going back to food for just a second, you know, when we were when we were there in the earthquake, or on that day, right, so we were in this little room, and I told you, there was a fridge. And you know, everybody had been so nice and told my kids like, you know, feel free to eat the snacks. And I was watching them, just sort of like eat snacks and watch TV. And, again, I found myself in that position of nobody's gonna blame you, if you eat one of the frozen pizzas, right? Like, just take a break, eat it maintenance today, you know, give yourself a break, right? And I was feeling really emotional about it. And, but what something that, that I wasn't going to take a break on was tracking, right, because I didn't want my app to go crazy. And you know, cut my calories because I had gained all this weight without telling it that I eat and everything. And it's sort of interesting, because this app doesn't punish you for what you eat. It punishes Well, punishes, you know, quote, unquote, punishes you for not tracking, right. And so I become very good at being meticulously honest about what I ate. And so I went to go put in something before I ate it. And it was just that act of inputting data into my app that moved me from this emotionally charged place to just this like logic place, right? We're just doing math, we're just adding numbers were and all of a sudden, I was like, Oh, well, in this logical place. Like, I don't really feel like I care that much about that pizza, I brought a protein bar. And it sort of sounds good right now. I really like chambers, actually. So um, and I feel like that has happened. So many times that because I have these few habits. They don't control me. Right, I can choose the time to do something different. But I think that they informed my these habits inform my decisions. And, and yeah, bring me back to that place of logic. Yes. Yeah. I love that. We're in a different place now. And and yeah, it's just super helpful. And and then I get to make better informed choices.

Philip Pape 44:16

Yeah, everything. I mean, how are you putting this all so well, for for the listener, in the idea that you can measure you can manage what you can measure, right? That's the classic phrase, you can manage what you can measure. And if you think of like finances, right, you if you if you want to save money for retirement, for your kids education, and to go on vacations, you have to have a budget, and you have to track your money. And we don't say that's weird, or that's restrictive, or oh my god that's going to prevent you from doing what you want to do. We say the opposite. Wow, that allows you to have all this freedom. Put the money in different buckets, to save more or less to decide to invest it. Same thing with your food as you are creating the level of awareness you've never had before. And if six months a year from now, you say you know what I'm counting I'm tired of the process of tracking, you at least have that ingrained skill of knowing what's in food and how much is in the food and so on. But it's funny because like, I've been tracking now for several years, and I still love to do it, because it's a habit. And it gives me information, you know, and you're right. You just saw what it takes five minutes out of your day. And now you can make choices and be flexible.

Heather Clinger 45:21

Yeah, yeah, I sort of I sort of like it. I feel like I mean, before when I was using different apps, I felt like, oh, but it's just sort of like this puzzle, you know, this thing, then where does it fit? Right? Yes, yes. Yes, so much food freedom, not scared of food. I, I think I'm surprised by the quantities that I am able to eat. And that if I just eat that quantity, and sit with it for a second that usually I'm able to feel satisfied. Whereas before, and again, like I'll eat the thing, right, and put it into my macros. And I think that was my rule for a while, eat whatever you want, but track it, right? Make sure that it's that it's in there so that you can see, right? Oh, I'm not reaching my goal. Why not? Oh, right. Because I was 500 calories.

Philip Pape 46:11

So exactly. That's why we do it. And it's not an it's not just so people are listening, you know, it's not just calories and macros. It's all the other things that you like to measure and get feedback on, right? It's your lifts. It's how you feel it's your hunger, you know, even our hunger, like we're in a fat loss phase, if you told me three weeks in a row, that the hunger was just so ravenous, and you've done everything possible to manage that with vegetables and fiber and water. That's good information to tell us who maybe we need a break. Right? It's good. All right. So I have one or two final questions. And the first one is what advice would you give to someone who is considering hiring a coach, but maybe hesitant, because we know that's there's often a lot of roadblocks in our mind to doing that.

Heather Clinger 46:58

Right, because this is a time commitment and a financial commitment. And so of course, we're going to hesitate, right. And it's good to do our research and to find somebody that is going to be a good fit. But My only regret is that I didn't start sooner. Right. So I told you that I decided to wait until after I got to Turkey. But I wish that you know the I am going to call it trauma, right? I feel like I sort of get many moving trauma, right when I have to leave my students, when I leave the things that make me feel like me, it's traumatic, and I gain weight, and I eat all the things and I get stressed out. And that's what would have happened this time during the earthquake. If I hadn't had a coach, if I hadn't been in this program, and writing out my feelings and tracking the things that were going to help me be the me that I wanted to be. And I wish that I had done it when we were moving. I wish that I had gone through all of that with a coach and with the information that I have now. And I didn't and I gained, I don't know, 1015 pounds, just in the process, and sure are moving processes are long, because we have to move this stuff here. And then we move this stuff to storage and then we you know, sell the things and we you know, I mean, moving to another country is is a process. But yeah, it did not look beautiful at the end. And I I've learned some tricks to be kind to myself. And you know, we we had a good time getting to Turkey. But I think I would have come out better on the other side if I'd had to coach.

Philip Pape 48:45

Now imagine if you hadn't ever gotten a coach. That's what I want you to think about. Right? So because the past is the past, but you're right. If people are listening, and they're wondering, when's the best time, there's never a best time. So now's the best time to go do it, if that's something you need. Alright, so I do ask this final question of all guests. And it maybe is a tricky one, maybe not. And that is what one question. Did you wish I had to ask? And what is your answer?

Heather Clinger 49:11

All right. So I think when I listen to podcasts, I'm always looking for the takeaways. So I guess I would like to, you know, talk about the things that I would hope that people would be able to take away from this podcast. So I think that that yeah, the first one is that I need people to make sure that they understand that I wasn't, you know, persevering through the earthquake to be some sort of, you know, baddie, right. I'm not I was doing it to prove anything necessarily. There are legitimate times when we need to take breaks in our life, right, where we need to focus more on different different things and the But the thing was, Is that Yeah, after making my my pros and cons list, oh, I have to tell you about the pros and cons list. Okay, so one day I came in, this was before the earthquake I came in, and I told my kids, I just don't I wasn't even telling them I was just, you know, telling the universe, oh, I do not want to go to the gym. And my 10 year old, brilliant, 10 year old that she is. She looks at me. And she says, Well, mom make a pros and cons list, right? The only con is that you don't want to do it. And everything else is a pro. True. And of course, I was gonna go to the gym that day. And I did go to the gym that day. But that's what I had to do after the earthquake, right? I had to make a pros and cons list, right? Did I need to go to the gym that day? Or did I need to stay home and do something else to decompress. And when I realized that, it was all pros for going to the gym, I went to the gym. And when I had to decide if I was going to track that day, did a pros and cons list. And when it was all pros, then I tracked that day. And so yeah, this isn't about how during an earthquake, you have to, you know, be one way or the other. It's about make your pros and cons list, right? If this is something, sitting your life, then do something good for yourself and keep going with, you know, the goals that are benefiting your life.

Philip Pape 51:23

And there's a common theme there that I can take away from that. And that is that you are in control. And you are thinking ahead. Right. And that's kind of a common theme with everything we do is planning ahead. So even in the worst of times, you at least took a few minutes to think about it and determine what serve you and your family most even if the end decision was something different from your normal routine. Yeah,

Heather Clinger 51:45

well, and like I said, I think before, you know, I was sort of on autopilot that day, right? I feel blessed that I had a habit of tracking, right. What I didn't have that day was I was not in a habit of a cut, right, we had just barely gone into my cat. And I mean, it was like day five, or something of my gut. I was not, you know, used to these lower calories yet. But what I was used to was tracking. And so when I went and put it into my, my macros, I was able to see oh, I can do something right now that benefits me. That's a pro, right? I went to the gym. And it was after I went to the gym that I was able to say, I actually felt really good to think about something else besides whether or not the earth is shaky under my feet. And so So I was glad that I had those moments of information that helped me, you know, inform my pros and cons list. But yeah, moving forward, I was able to make a pros and cons list. And some days, you know, we were traveling to Greece. And we got into, you know, Istanbul, which is at the top of Turkey. We live at the bottom of Turkey where the earthquakes happen. And we were at the top of Turkey getting ready to cross the border the next day, it was late and it would have been absolutely ludicrous for me to look for a gym at that point. Exactly. Suit, the pros and cons list. It was a con that day I didn't do it. But what I did do was reach out to my coach and he gave me some bodyweight exercises and reminded me that missing one day of exercise was not going to you know, disappear all my muscles and

Philip Pape 53:27

exactly so it's this is the balance and sustainability we're talking about. All right. These are great. I think we I mean there were a ton of takeaways I'm sure people are gonna get from this. And for those listening or watching Heather is in our community in the Wits & Weights Facebook community, so if you want to reach out to her there she I'm sure she'd be happy to answer questions or say hello. And if you're not in the community, it's free. Just look it up and join. And Heather. Most of all, I'm very grateful that you decided to do this and come on the show.

Heather Clinger 53:55

Thank you, Philip. Yeah, it was a pleasure.

Philip Pape 53:59

Philip Pape 3/7/23 Philip Pape 3/7/23

Ep 50: Cultivating Discipline, Perception, and Mindset to Build Momentum in Health and Fitness with Scott Friedman

In today's episode you'll learn about how to be more consistent and build momentum in your health and fitness journey through mindset and discipline with my guest, Scott Friedman. Scott is a nationally accredited Personal Trainer, Fitness Nutrition Coach, and Behavior Change Specialist who has been in the fitness industry for years.

In today's episode you'll learn about how to be more consistent and build momentum in your health and fitness journey through mindset and discipline with my guest, Scott Friedman.

Scott is a nationally accredited Personal Trainer, Fitness Nutrition Coach, and Behavior Change Specialist who has been in the fitness industry for years.

He has worked with hundreds of clients and specializes in mentoring them on how to build long-term, sustainable habits using his key principles of mindset, motion, and momentum.

Scott is a unique and engaging speaker, coach, and host of the Power of Progress podcast (make sure to subscribe!). He prides himself on understanding the needs of those who wish to change their lives.

Through storytelling, personal experience, and a refreshingly honest take on the fitness and nutrition industry, Scott empowers and inspires his audiences and clients to take congruent action to achieve their goals. His authentic “grip it and rip it” style resonates with people and motivates them to take practical steps that improve their lives.

You'll learn all about:

What inspired Scott to enter the fitness industry and his "grip it and rip it" style
Goals vs. process-oriented objectives and lifestyle changes
Motivation vs. discipline
Small, consistent steps vs. changing everything at once
Perception and mindset for achieving results and how to shift one's mindset
Why positive thoughts don't work unless you feel it
Why having specific goals is crucial for success
How to understand the needs of those who wish to change their lives
Storytelling and public speaking to empower and inspire audiences

Episode resources:

Scott's website - scottspeaksfitness.com
Get your free ebook Back to Basics - at this link
Email Scott at scott@scottspeaksfitness.com
Download the Power of Progress podcast - Apple or Spotify
Watch the episode on video here

🔥 Grab your free Ultimate Macros Guide and 50 High-Protein Recipes here

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Transcript

Philip Pape 00:08

Welcome to the Wits & Weights podcast, where we discuss getting strong and healthy with strength training and sustainable nutrition. I'm your host, Philip pape, and in each episode, we examine strategies to help you achieve physical self mastery through a healthy skepticism of the fitness industry, and a commitment to consistent nutrition and training for sustainable results. Welcome to another episode of Wits & Weights. I'm chatting today with Scott Friedman about the mindset side of health and fitness, which I think is underrated, but critical principle for success. Scott is a nationally accredited personal trainer, fitness nutrition coach and behavior change specialist who has been in the fitness industry for years. He's worked with hundreds of clients and specializes in mentoring them on how to build long term sustainable habits. Using his key principles of mindset, motion and momentum. Scott is a unique and engaging speaker, coach and host of the power of power of progress podcast, make sure to subscribe. He prides himself on understanding the needs of those who wish to change their lives. Through storytelling, personal experience, and a refreshingly honest take on the fitness and nutrition industry. Scott empowers and inspires his audiences and clients to take congruent action to achieve their goals. His authentic grip it and rip it style resonates with people and motivates them to take practical steps that improve their lives. Scott, man, thank you for coming on the show.

Scott Friedman 01:35

Nah, man. Thank you for having me. I appreciate it.

Philip Pape 01:38

Yeah, so we connected a little while back and we're doing a little podcast swap here. So today we're going to talk mindset and maybe some training and things like that. I just want to start with your background, right you have your podcast, the power of progress. You're also a public speaker, you're a coach or trainer. So what inspired you to get into the fitness industry and I do want to know about your grip it and rip it style.

Scott Friedman 02:00

So I think it goes back. I don't want to go too long with it. But it goes back to junior year of high school. I was I've always been like this lanky kid my dad used to call me like Elmo, or like a Sesame Street character. My arms were so lanky, but there was like a good layer of muscle there. But I had like these lanky arms, and I was okay, fine. I'm a lanky kid, no big deal. But then, the winter of my sophomore year, actually, I started to notice I started to get a little bit of a gut. And it wasn't anything that I couldn't No you couldn't see like the skinny kids six pack anymore. It wasn't like a real estate spec. Like I was skinny so I could see it. I couldn't see it. I was like, Oh my gosh, like I need to like do something so I just I started drawing some sports. And from there you know when you join like the track team or whatever it is varsity track team. It's they start, they start making weightlifting. I've never with weightlifting before my entire life. I started doing it. And it was like the most embarrassing thing like when you first start with all these like seniors and you're like a sophomore, junior, they're like, lifted all this way. And I'm like, Okay, I don't know what I'm doing. But I kind of fell into it. So you know, I graduated high school, I started to get this routine going started going to the gym every day after school right before I graduate. My mom pushed me to do physical therapy is my major in college. And I'm like, Okay, I'll do physical therapy. They make good money, I think and I can say I'm a doctor, like that's what the parents want. I'll do all that two years in. I'm doing like organic chemistry and like, just biophysics. I'm like, I don't I don't like I don't care about I just want to like work out like I don't understand. So I found out I had no idea I found out that there was a kinesiology program, which I have no idea what that is. It's Exercise Science, which is basically personal training in a nutshell. And I'm like, I'll just switch to this. All the classes are super easy. And I'll just be a personal trainer. Like why not? That's what I want to do anyway. So I switch halfway through. It took a little longer to graduate, but I switched halfway through and when to Kinesiology. And I like to say as most of my classes, but I got into it. And really, that was kind of the start of it that kind of that three year period of like, you know, senior to sophomore in college, really where like, I really honed my love for working out and I think my freshman year of college where I moved to a brand new city, probably an hour away from home, but I lived in the dorms. And I broke my ankle in the first three weeks of school like do you I mean, imagine the you know, I live on the fifth floor of this 1940s building, no elevator, no air conditioning in the middle of August September in Chicago. So it's boiling hot. I live on the top bunk. I know one person and that's my roommate. He's the one who convinced me to go like a jerk. And broken ankle don't know anyone. So I'm sitting there every day I hobble crutches, on crutches in a boot and crutches. I hobbled a class and we have like this we had like a subway deli basically. So I ordered two sandwiches when I got home, one for lunch, one for dinner. And other than that I would literally just be at the gym every single day for like Two hours, mostly because it took me like, forever to walk around. Oh, it was like an hour of work. Yeah, but I couldn't. I had to hobble from each station set things up. And that was really it. I mean, that's when the routine clicked. That's I had nothing else to do but workout for like a year straight. Alright, maybe was like six months, whatever it is, but and that's really where it came from. I just loved how I felt loved how I looked, just to be as vain as possible. And that you know, and you're a college kid, like, that's what you love. And obviously, as I grew in the career, and as I kind of made it a career, you grow and you find out more about fitness than just lifting heavy weights a billion times to be as you know, jacked as possible. When you're in college,

Philip Pape 05:36

of course, man. And you know, you mentioned the vanity thing, but it's kind of funny, because people don't care about vanity until they see that they get the results from this. And then they care about vanity you don't say like yes, because people can always listen to another show. And they were talking about how this guy lost a ton of weight and was able to nail everything down and improve his body for the first time in his entire 50 years of life in like six months, and you could do it that fast. And it was like, it drove him to do that. So that's okay, man. Right? I do what I do. I don't know if he didn't you answer the question or I didn't get it. But the grip it and rip it style. It's Oh, yeah. Yeah. So

Scott Friedman 06:10

I've always been kind of a contrarian. When it came to school, especially in college mail, my instructor is so good example of fitness, we had this guy come in. And you know, we just had learned, you know, an hour a day before about how if you're overweight or obese, clinically speaking, like you shouldn't be doing probably essentially concentric lifting too much, because it could cause a heart attack because it reduces the blood vessels. And we load all this stuff. Okay, this guy comes in. And he comes in all professional owns a gym, very, you know, Suave talks to us, he starts talking how Oh, he doesn't care. You know, he doesn't do anything, any testing, any medical test, anything like that, he starts talking about oh, like, this is great. So I'm the guy. I'm the jerk, who basically is like, well, we just learned what you just said, will probably cause someone to have a heart attack without them consulting their doctor and making sure they're healthy enough to workout. So why would we want to do that? Why would we want to work for you, like in front of this guy. And so I was I was, I've always been this guy of like, I don't take what everyone says as like the gospel. And I've always, you know, when you pass the certification test when you do all these textbooks, and then I am so ready to go, I'm so ready to like be in fitness. And then you get into fitness. And you're like, This is nuts. Like what were you teaching

Philip Pape 07:25

me for? Compute, right?

Scott Friedman 07:28

It's like you wasted I wasted so much money. I tell people now in college like honestly, like just get the certification and get practical experience. Like don't waste time going to college because it's just it's just it's not the same. So my grip and rip it really came from I hate the idea of these, these suave people sitting on a pedestal, they know what their amazing corporate PowerPoint and you know, talking as if they you know, their doctorates, it's like most people communicate on like a seventh grade level, this is how we communicate. And that's how I communicate. I don't want to be bogged down in the nuances of Oh, make sure this is perfect. Make sure no, no, just just go and talk. And people will resonate with the message people can understand even if you miss speak, people understand what you're trying to say. And I wasn't when I was started the podcasting era of what I was doing a couple years ago. And my whole thing was, I am not going to do this. If I have to worry about lighting, if I have to worry about the best possible headset, the best possible microphone, the best possible backdrop, which I imagine, most people will tell me, Oh, you can improve this, you can improve that. I'm like, if I can't just talk into a microphone. And if I need to make all these outlines, I won't do it. So my whole goal was what if I do this and just just talk and just go at it. And you know, when I first got started, I was listening to a different podcast, who was very similar, who he was talking to microphone, no script, no nothing. And it was very authentic, transparent. And I thought that it resonated with me because I was like, that's how I talk. That's how I want people I don't want this. Well, today, what we're gonna do is just like, I don't need and that's not how fitness is fitness is very fluid. And fitness is very well, it depends. And it I think it goes in that organic nature of let's just have a conversation, we're gonna mess up, we're going to stutter, we're not going to be the perfect, you know, essence of speaking or whatever it might be. And that's kind of the grip and grip and I tell you how it is and not going to sugarcoat what can happen if you do it a certain way. And that's kind of where the grip and grip came from.

Philip Pape 09:23

Cool. Yeah, that's so if I were to interpret it, that's that's kind of what I was getting from it. Of course, it's a deadlifting term, I think, right grip and grip it, but it comes across as like, you know, don't let perfection be the enemy of the good. Like, just take action don't We don't make make excuses, especially right. It's like, everything has to be set up just right. Of course. I'm very anal and very organized about things. So some of the podcast stuff does hit me a little bit right here because I do prepare but you know, we're all different right? That's the point. So all right, let's get into some of the mindset stuff then we're here to talk about you know, you have your key principles as part of your you know, who you are and how you talk through this. Have mindset, motion and momentum. And that first one being mindset. I don't know if it's intentionally first, but you know, it gives it a clue to how important it is. So most people have a goal, right? Most people have a specific goal. It's usually like, hey, I want to lose weight, I want to look good, I want to lose x pounds, I have a date that I need to hit for an event, whatever. What's your approach with a client comes in and says that? And maybe, maybe and you tell me maybe instead you want to focus them on the process or on the lifestyle changes before really trying to get to that goal, which may be months out?

Scott Friedman 10:30

That's a great question. Because you have to, there's a balance when it comes to, you know, training clients, and I teach a bunch of new trainers now kind of how to find that balance. And when you're training, because they're paying you to get results at the end of the day, they're paying you to get results. So I think if someone were to come to me, and what I've done is I try to I try to I let them know number one that like, you know, here's what I'm looking at, right? I'm looking okay, like you're saying this, but what are your actions? Or what are your actions actually telling us? So I think there is a balance when someone comes to you, and you know that they're not ready, or you know, you want to talk about something else. But at the same time, you also need to show them they gotta get results because they're paying you especially if you're working in a practical sense, right? If you're working in a commercial gym, where you have a sales quarter, if you're working at a studio, if your job is to personal train, or even on your own, you're you're a contractor and you go to places or whatever it is, you got to get results, you have to be a good trainer. So you can't stop that and go Well, for the first six months. We're going to work on building this habit for and so yeah, it's kind of a mix, you incorporate things where you can, and then use your expertise and your knowledge. Okay, look, this is why this has happened. I have a client recently, who I've worked with him for over a year. And I don't think you'll listen to that. So it's okay, I could say

Philip Pape 11:43

about clients all the time, just don't use their name,

Scott Friedman 11:45

no name, but he he's he's had no nothing. Eating was horrible. Fitness is horrible. You know, of course, he wants to make the change. He's paying me good money to make the change. And we've got him finally in a good fitness routine. But his diet again, I don't wanna use the word diet necessarily. But for the sake of the argument, use the word diet is horrible. I mean, it's just it's absolute trash. It is though, it's probably one of the worst I've seen to be totally honest. And, but I can't, what am I going to do? Am I not going to train him so that we can focus, but he won't do that? So I have to find the compromise? Okay, where can I push him? Where can I not push him and get him results along the way. And eventually, what we've started to do was we've taken these mini steps. And like you said, kind of earlier, different verbiage. But progress is new perfection. So if someone wants to change their mindset, it's on me to know that and to basically create that adaptation. So what I started doing actually was instead of personal training, I focus more on coaching. And that's kind of where I differentiate because I felt when I was at a studio or I was at a commercial gym, I don't have time for that your trainer, right, you have 30 minutes, 45 minutes, you got to get them sweating, and gotta get them results. That's what you're getting paid for. You don't have a lot of time to talk about their mindset or talking about their habits. And so you have to work in those things when you're stretching them when you're doing these things. But it's important to realize, okay, how do I do that when I'm trying to personal train them, because if you can kind of find that balance, then they'll stay with, you know, they might not stay with you, because you'll learn a lot, but they will give you referrals, they'll love you, there's going to be a great experience for you. And the way I've done that, as I've transitioned from personal training to more of a coaching perspective, so I differentiate that between Okay, personal trainers more so kind of what traditional you work out with them, you know, weight sets

Philip Pape 13:23

are just you're just holding their hand right there through them exactly.

Scott Friedman 13:25

And coaching is I focus less on, I'm not going to hold your hand, I'm going to give you all the tools that you need, I'll give you the exact workout that you need. I'm not going to be there with you working out you're going to have to you know, I'll have the videos for you will have everything you need. But you got to learn it because if we're not going to learn it, then I'm not sure I can help you with the mindset part of it. So I've deviated from personal train directly to more of a coaching programming perspective. And both are needed. By the way, some people absolutely need personal training, they need that handheld, and some don't. And just depends on kind of who you're who you're talking to.

Philip Pape 13:54

Yeah, it's kind of interesting to hear it from your perspective, because I come from the other side of it, the nutrition coaching side, and I'm trying to get more and more into working with people on their training, but without being a personal trainer, which is in being online, you know, it's like form checks, and here's your program, and now go and do your squats. And then the next day, I'm gonna have to fix all the bad squats you just did. And I can't do that in the moment, like a personal trainer can. So it's like you have to trust that they're gonna take that information, which means you have to communicate it really well. Yeah. Cool. So we just covered we just covered a lot about the fact I like the example you made about the six months like we can't work on something for six months before we get going. You wish you could write like you wish you could perfect be with a client for five years. And like just fix everything.

Scott Friedman 14:40

Most people are like, you know, you'll get a client who let's say you're at the commercial gym or something. Oh, let's buy a 12 pack of 30 minute sessions. After four sessions. They're like why vet lost weight? I'm like, dude, like you're probably 50 years old or whatever. And like I'm trying to undo 50 years of crap that you've done to your body and like four sessions I got to so it takes time to investigate So it takes a lot of time to get those sustainable results. I just say you could probably starve someone quickly.

Philip Pape 15:04

Yeah, of course. And that's the problem with their industry, right? There's so many people with the short term fix. And you have to package it in a different way and message in different way where they're still gonna stick with you. And I think your podcast and, you know, speaking to people and having them here and trust you and understand it's a long game goes a long way. But what would you how would you feel kind of going off the cuff on this? If somebody really, really needs a lot of work, okay. They're, you know, they're stressed by their job, they get five hours of sleep, they're not training consistently, they barely move, their diet is trash, like you said? Where do you start with that?

Scott Friedman 15:41

You know, I think it has to be case by case I think you figure out where in behavioral change, you know, kind of stuff, you know, you have the pre contemplation and contemplation fields and the action fields. So you kind of figure out what stage they're in. And in each part of it if if the fitness is the easiest part, or if the nutritious easiest part, if someone comes to me and says, okay, oh, I love to cook. And I hate to workout, I may focus on the nutrition aspect, because I'm nutrition certified. So I can do that. But obviously not not with the arty stuff. But I may focus on that first. And so Okay, let's, let's make baby steps this way. Because, you know, we all know that nutrition is extraordinarily important. If not, you know, there's symbiotic but very, very important that it doesn't get the credit it deserves. So I probably focus on that. And they tell me that they hate cooking, they only eat out, but they don't, but they can probably schedule in time to work out, I may focus on the workout first. So I think it's a matter of progress is the new perfection of I can get them 1% better every time and just keep going and show them. Look, when we first started a month ago, here's where you're at, here's where you're at. Now, you might not see weight loss, necessarily, if that's the goal. But here's what you're doing. Like, look what you've done, you've done 12 workouts, you've done X, Y and Z, you built muscle here, like you're on the right path, that's gonna take time and, and calm. And I'm very transparent with that like, this is going to take time, like you're investing in the process, just like a job just like a relationship. This is no different than anything else, like you didn't start in a company at President, you started with minion, and you worked your way up to, you know, whatever director role that you might have, it's the same thing, your body's the same way you got to start from where you're at, and then work your way up. And then, you know, so on so forth. So it is very hard question. But the answer is, it depends based on kind of where their mindsets up, I wouldn't attack it all at once, I would go one at a time. Very small steps.

Philip Pape 17:23

Yeah. And that's what I was getting from what you're saying is the small wins, it's like, a lot of people try to start from the biggest gap, maybe and try to fix that. And then it's very demotivating, when it takes time to kind of close that gap. Whereas you're saying, start from your strengths start from where you're close, but not quite there, and it's something you enjoy. And then you can get that quick win, right, and then spiral it into these other things. At least that's what I'm getting from what you're saying?

Scott Friedman 17:48

Yeah, 100%. And again, maybe that's not you know, maybe some psychologists out there says no, start with a bigger win, because you hear all these different, but and there's nothing wrong with that. I just think that when you're building momentum, building that, you know, when after when progress after progress that builds your momentum, which then creates that snowball effect, okay, now you feel better when you first what I found, at least in my experience is when people first ask you, I want to lose weight, I want to do this, they're not understanding that this is a lifestyle change, versus something they're gonna do for six months, and then stop. What most people do is they think they're gonna say, Oh, what's that lose 40 pounds, I can go back to eating chocolate cake, I can go, it's like, no, no, this is your life now, like, this is what you have to do. So when you start getting these wins, and you start feeling better and better and better, and you start seeing it, that's a good way to build that mindset of okay, this is this feels good, I can do this. Because they don't, they don't know what that feels like until they start to feel it. So that's how I attack it of, let's get these again. However slow it is depends on the person. But let's get these small wins, build momentum. And then slowly this will change your mindset to in a year from now you will recognize yourself like oh my gosh, I work out I worked out three days a week for a year, and I never did that before. And those are small wins. And now it's part of your life part of your habit. And you're going to start seeing more and more results as you snowball again, the more you move, the more you do the the more results you're gonna get. So obviously the pressure

Philip Pape 19:10

how fast you want to go. Yeah, I'm picking up what you're putting down man. And I think the people listening who just even when they're doing it on their own, you know, take heart if they if you feel like you're you've got a lot to work on and you've been going years doing one thing, just listen to what Scott saying Right? Attack Attack one behavior that is a small one and area that you enjoy, start to build on that. Because motivation, we know willpower motivation. They're nice in the short term for a little burst. Or even if you have a coach, it's nice to have that coach to push you but it's not a sustainable approach. And I know you'd like to talk about that too, right motivation and willpower. What? What's the alternative to that is that what we were just talking about is there's some other mindset games and strategies you bring into play.

Scott Friedman 19:52

I think motivation is great to get started. There's no doubt like you're not going to do it. If you're not motivated. I'm awesome. You also won't do it if you don't want Do it. So yeah, to be motivated to some mistake motivation last about two weeks. And I say that because about it's like 80% of any health goal from New Year's ends in about two weeks. So by January 15, all the health goals are already over 80% are already over. So motivation doesn't last very long motivation doesn't last, when it's five in the morning, snowing cold in the Midwest and your car doesn't start, you're going to warm it up. That's that there's no motivation there. I think what helps, I guess there's two things, one discipline, I think discipline is really where people should be focused. And discipline is habit building, if you can do something over and over again, and build that habit built. There's something called basically neurological pathways where if you do something over and over again, repetition is how we learn, you're gonna build that muscle memory basically, in a more of a habit sense than the actual muscle memory. So I think that's number one is discipline, build discipline, focus on that focus on, you don't have to like what you're going to do. As long as you go and do it, I have the time. And this might be horrible to say, like, I don't want to work out half the time I had to be like, I'd be like, Okay, I'll just, I'll go do it like fine. And I feel phenomenal when I'm done. And that's a discipline versus if I didn't do it, because I wasn't motivated, I wouldn't do it. And I think that's a huge differential. So I do it even when I don't want to. So that's number one. And then, when it comes to trying to stay, I guess supporting yourself, I would say some tools that I will implement is number one, you know, what's your reason? Why? Why do you want to let's just say losing weight? Why do you want to lose weight? Seriously, like, what what is the reason you want to lose it? Don't, don't tell me tell yourself, what is it. And then once you find you should be able to write out 30 reasons. It can be family, it can be personal, it can be as vain as you want to be as long as it's important to you when I was 22. You know, years ago, being being having a six pack and being just the hottest guy around was a really important goal to me. Now, that has changed since then. But that wasn't important at the time, that would force me to go to the gym, because that's what I wanted. So whatever goal you have, I think that's really important to understanding your reason why, and then making it visible I think is super important. Because I have a whiteboard in my apartment, where I live. And I have specific goals and specific why's written down so that I look at every morning I can reaffirm, okay, I got to do this today, I got to do this today. Because if you don't, what's gonna happen, you're gonna wake up, do your normal routine, you're gonna forget all about it. You know, especially when work gets busy when children are sick. When you go to the soccer game, I have constant reminders is actually I learned this from Bob Proctor mash if you don't know who Bob Proctor is, but he's kind of like the personal development guru. And he actually just died last year. But he actually used to carry on a note card in his pocket and would write down his reasons why or his specific goal. And he wouldn't look at it, but he would know it was there. Every time he felt his pocket, it would remind him that's my goal. So if like for example, if your goal is to work out three days a week, and you have that in your pocket, and you feel it workout three this week, you'll you'll constantly be resetting your mind. So it's not necessarily a motivational tactic. It's more of a support system tactic. What's your reason why and then make it visible so you can constantly remind yourself to do something because I have clients all the time. They know, they know 100% I know I gotta go for a walk. I know I I can't eat this ravioli or whatever it is, that's leftover. I know. But they don't do it. And they don't do it. They don't reset themselves every day,

Philip Pape 23:15

they just kind of melt. And there's always a reason right that they didn't do. Hey, this is Philip Pape. And if you feel like you've put in effort to improve your health and fitness, but aren't getting results, I invite you to apply for a one on one coaching to make real progress and get the body you desire. We'll work together to figure out what's missing so you can look better perform better and feel better. Just go to wits & weights.com/coaching to learn about my program and apply today. Now back to the episode. So I like that so the discipline and then the y but with the y with a card idea. Is that something you use with clients like concretely do you say hey, go do this like on the onboarding call let's write it down an index card or is there some strategies with them? Yeah, so

Scott Friedman 23:59

I tried to again, I'm very can't force people to do stuff Yeah, yeah, so I give them I usually give them an options I see what sticks and what doesn't stick. But I tell them if you do everything I tell you to do you're gonna see better results if you don't do it. I can't I'm not gonna force you like you have to be able to do now it depends on the situation I try to enforce the best I can without being too pushy because if you push it too early, you know clients will they won't trust you so but I attempt Yeah, so that's something I do attempt to do. At minimum I say they have to have some sort of piece of paper on their desk or in their sink at their house so they can see everyday when they brush their teeth or something like that. They have a whiteboard yeah they have a whiteboard even better if they have an office if they have a somewhere that their spouse or friends can't see that their house or at work put it there but put it somewhere where it's personal to you. I wouldn't do on the computer mostly because they need to open your computer to see it's got to be visible right when you walk in the door. And that's where my whiteboard is. That's where the mirror is.

Philip Pape 24:53

Yeah, yeah, we're like so inundated with our reminders and technology. We tend to ignore them anyway.

Scott Friedman 24:59

Yeah, you can put on your phone Oh, but I'm not sure. Well, people are the first I've got put on your phone. That's the hard part. It's like, actually, and then are people actually going to follow? That

Philip Pape 25:05

is the question because it's so funny how these old school tool tools can still be highly effective. Like, just literally just yesterday, I have a client who checks in with me, who tells me daily what's going on, because she's in a phase where like, we're trying to get through a trigger triggering an issue with her food. And now she's like, you know, I'm gonna go ahead and on an index card, right, like my couple guidelines that I have. And every time I go out this weekend, I'm just gonna bring it out. You know, I'm like, it reminds you that it's great, obviously, because, yeah, you know, it's just yeah, like you said, everybody's individual. And the communication style depends, like some clients really want tough love. And you could just, hey, you need to do this for me now. Because if not, you know, you're failing yourself. Blah, blah, blah, and others. It's like pussyfooting around it. Cool. So we talked about perception and mindset a little bit. And I mean, what about shifting mindset? There's another concept that I like to get into and learn more about, I want to, I want to hear your perspective on that. of, you know, the fixed growth versus growth mindset, or whatever school of thought you want to bring up in? You know, people's people's way of thinking can change over time. Right. So is there methodology you use there you talk to about that for shifting your mindset?

Scott Friedman 26:16

Yeah, for sure. So I'll preface this, I'm not a psychologist. So you know,

Philip Pape 26:19

obviously take what I say with a psychologist. You're not an RD? Okay. We established that. Yes. I don't take rd because then you're forced to give people meal plans.

Scott Friedman 26:27

Yeah, I don't want to do that. So when people ask me all the time, I'm like, What do you mean give you here's like what I eat, but go figure it out. So shifting mindsets is so difficult, I will say, from someone who like, you know, there's plenty of things I'm going through right now. So one of my mind shifts, mind set shifts is I want to meditate every single day, or at least six days a week, I'm willing to give myself that one day off just if something happens. And I have not built that in I went like three months doing great. I took the summer off because I'm stupid, and then trying to get back into it. And so you know, shifting your mindset is very difficult at first in my mind, it can be very difficult to do because we are basically a computer program, we are hardly there are many things that we are taught when we were younger that we don't even know that we're doing now. So when you're there's something so there's certain if you look up brainwave activities, before you're seven years old, I think you're always in theta brainwave, which is basically, your subconscious brainwave, which is where you just literally just take all the information, and you absorb it all. And then you basically build this computer program in your head. And that's kind of how you perceive the world. And so even brothers who wouldn't say a household, they might get different stories, but having different interaction people, that's how they grew up differently, or they have the same story. And they grew up the same way. And that's how some people say, mage, different parts of the country, they, you know, there's different stories. So you're, you're almost hardwired to have a specific story. So if your story in your head tells you that you're not good enough, or you're not meant to be in shape, or you can't lose this weight, or it's just negative all the time, it could take a lot of work. And so shifting mindset, I think comes with a couple of different territories. And I probably won't hit every topic here, but one is you have to self reflect you have to really be a lot of people are honest with themselves when they come to trainers and like I want to lose weight. Oh, I'm doing so well. And then they like lie about half the stuff that they're not doing. It's like, oh, I didn't realize I had that chocolate, I didn't realize it's like, okay, so you're not really being totally honest with me about it. They're lying to themselves. They're lying to me. They allow themselves self deception that they think that they're in better shape or this food isn't as bad as they as it should be. Also, it's okay. Somebody wants really self reflection really understand and be honest with yourself and have a Have yourself a good cry, to be honest, because it's a good emotional release to what am I doing wrong? Like what what can I do to actually make a change my life, and then really feel that I think the two biggest things that changing your mindset, and I truly believe this is one emotion, you need to have emotion of the and two is direct thought with emotion. So if you want to lose weight, thinking about it, and having an emotion about it, are to combine things that will really help you push that forward. So for example, when I meditate, if there's something that I want, I know it sounds a little woowoo, but like, I will have a positive emotion towards what I want. And I will then force myself to basically have positive intent would be intent leads to action on it, which then yields different results, which will then yield the congruent results that I talked about over time. So when someone wants to change their mindset, it's all about I think, number one, creating positive intent with what they want to do. And then building building that discipline number two, it we talked about before, you have to kind of just push yourself to do it. And as you get those many successes, and you see the results, it's like okay, you know, your mindset will shift slowly. For example, when you're an employee, and you work for a company it's like my boss he doesn't understand anything that he sucks I hate you. We hear it all the time. So then I happen to be the boss in this situation. They don't get it. They're only looking at one cup of the situation that's their perspective. That's their mindset this one cup was that's that's their that's their that's their job title, that's the gym they manage, that's whatever. But as a manager, you have five cups you have to oversee, you see more of the bigger picture. And so when you be when you go from one cup to five cups, your perspective changes you, you see, oh, that's why my boss did that. Oh, that's why this happens. Oh, that's why the trainer told me to stop eating that, because I gained 50 pounds, when you can see the bigger picture. And you see, and you can only see the bigger picture. As you improve. As you open more doors. As you get more results, you start to you start to go, all the light goes on that stuff that makes sense. That's why it's so when you start seeing those little wins over and over again, you can start then basically changing your mindset that way. So once you can see more cups from the analogy, you can say, oh my gosh, that's why my boss did that he wasn't being a jerk. He just understood that that you know, this leads to this, this and this, versus my little cup. Like why can't you fill my cup all the way? Well, because I had to split it with five others. So it's a matter of perspective. And when you're able to start seeing results, I think your perspective can naturally change. Now again, I'm not a psychologist, not a perfect exam.

Philip Pape 30:59

Oh, no, but you just connected like the whole arc of this conversation from something early was said I want to, I want to like let it percolate a bit because I like this. First of all, a wise man once said, positive thoughts don't work unless you feel it. The wise man was you because I got that, I think from your website. So it ties in or just say, but But earlier, we were talking about small wins. And that's how it's a quick way to start making progress. Almost almost under the radar, right? Like you don't even realize you're just doing this thing day to day is making progress. But then now you also said you can shift your mindset by getting the results which sounds chicken and egg, because you need to first get those results to then feel like you know the results from getting results. So I mean people listening to that, it's it's a profound thing. But it really is true, it's that you want something go and make these little changes, start to really acknowledge and feel and recognize and enjoy those results. And then it kind of iterates on itself. Hopefully we're not getting too philosophical. Scott, I love this stuff.

Scott Friedman 31:56

I love it. I love it. And I just I find it to be the biggest issue people have is that, you know, I think the positive intent is so important. And I think there's a new studies out there right now, you know, talking about you know, stuff I won't get into of course, but neural creating new neurological pathways and the only way to rewire the what's the way to what's the way to fix your computer, it's to reset it right, it's to get rid of the documents, get rid of the files. So if you take that analogy, it's okay, if I have positive emotional attempts, what they're saying is you could enter a certain brainwave status or certain feeling the meditation and feeling and say, Okay, I'm going to do this, which will then create new systems in your body, which will then help you move along and create more results. And it's a it's a little woowoo it's a little like, yeah, it

Philip Pape 32:41

takes I get it, there's a scientific aspect to it that I think makes a lot even even meditation and breathing and all that. Like I used to be very cynical about it. But Sam, there's science behind, you know, how we're wired and doing those things and how they change our brain and our physiology. So I like the bringing this stuff up. And hopefully people listening can go research, you know, the theta waves and all this stuff. Yeah.

Scott Friedman 33:01

Yeah, I recommend what do i Oh, there's, there's so many of them out there. So I wouldn't recommend one of them. But just look up theta waves and all that stuff. And you know, brainwaves and changing habits. I think you'll find some good, interesting reason, just just a preference, just so everyone knows, like, you know, I'm the guy in you know, I was the fraternity president I was, you know, a big lifting guy. You know, I was a varsity athlete, I'm not this you know, I was never this meditation, yoga ever until, until like a year and a half ago and I started studying as a really looking at wow, this stuff is life changing. Because the way I was doing before wasn't working. And I was like, this is actually so I'm not that guy was really off since I was five years old. I've been in the forest and medicine so that's not me at all. I was very anti meditation for 10 years. Yeah, right now I'm like, I'm like breathing I Oh, I breathe and I sleep oh, I need to work out leave me alone. And then now it's like, okay, actually, there's a little bit more to it than I had initially anticipated. So, yeah, so

Philip Pape 33:55

so people might be thinking then Okay, that's great. I want to start making all these changes. But there's a Winston Churchill quote I like and of course I wrote it specifically for this podcast and it's plans are of little importance, but planning is essential. Right? So when when we want to change these habits, should we have a plan like so we have this goal? We want to lose weight and like you said you need to go beyond that. Okay, why do you want to lose weight? Okay, I want to I want to look good okay, why do you want to look good? Okay, I want to feel great for this or whatever. How specific should our goals and plans be to kind of reverse engineer back to what habits we should change

Scott Friedman 34:35

I think all the way as far as you can make it as far as you can make because the farther back you go so for example, if you wouldn't take that exact example you gave so I want to lose weight. Why? Because I have a history of health disease in my family. Okay, but why do you wanna lose all because my grandma or my mom died when I was young. What so why is that important? You because the way I and then as you get deeper into the whys, as you know, is anyone with kids would know they ask you why why, why why? As you get deeper, you You get more emotional, and the more emotional that you can get about why you're doing something, the percentage statistical likelihood of you to achieve that result is astronomically higher. So if you can get emotionally attached to it, that's why I said, Be honest with yourself and stuff, like, why do you want to do it? What's the actual reason why you want to lose 20 pounds cuz you don't have to lose 20 pounds, like live the way you want to live, like, I'm not out here trying to get everyone like, if you don't wanna lose 50 pounds, don't lose 50 pounds, I don't care, like I want the people who do care to to come to me. So I think that I think you should take all the way down. Now, if you're with a trainer, and they're trying to do that with you, like, obviously, you're, you're only gonna go so far, but I'm talking internally goes deep as you can go. Write down as many as those as you can. Because the more emotional connection you can have, the better results you can have. Because you're just want to support yourself, because now you feel that emotion. Now, I've had clients break down on a call with me crying, because we broke it down. And they really felt that spark of like, wow, I didn't realize what I was feeling this whole time. And now it's so clear, and now they have a clear path, or at least a more clear path forward to achieve their goals doesn't work every time. Of course not. But it's something that helps you along the way. Now, of course, I do want to preface that. I'm not saying you shouldn't just grip it and rip it in and work out even if you haven't identified all those things that you shouldn't let overthinking stop you from taking action either. So that's a big thing. I'm not saying you have to make this as perfect as but oh, just do it along the way. Do it along the way. Always reassess and just, you know, don't worry about the nuance of it just start going is kind of Yeah,

Philip Pape 36:31

yeah, it's a fine balance. So like you said, it's a, you want to have an end goal. Do you want to have some steps along the way, but you also everyday things can change. So what you go go the flow and keep getting out there and take an action. Exactly. So coaches are for and that's it goes to the format. You were talking about the why and one of my clients said, you know, she wants to be devastatingly gorgeous. She'll know who it is when she she listen this. I said, Well, why do you want to be that? Well, really, because I'm gonna be a good role model for my kids. Okay, now we're getting a little bit more into what you really want. Yeah, it's like she's got a sense of humor.

Scott Friedman 37:06

I love that devastatingly gorgeous me to see if she finds the secret. Let me know.

Philip Pape 37:11

Exactly. Alright, so a little side tangent here is you're kind of a storyteller, and you do speaking engagements. And I mean, I personally have a passion for public speaking as a skill, because I used to be an introvert and it was something I had to get over and again, mindset shift, like, you know, used to be well, I can't do that what that guy is doing up on stage too. Like, I know, I can do that. Now. Let me get there. I'm curious what kind of speeches and seminars you do like what what topics what audiences just, you mind sharing a little about that about? Yeah,

Scott Friedman 37:41

very similar to this, to be honest, like, just a little bit more in detail. And we go through practical steps. And like we go through more specific examples, get the audience involved. But a lot of it is really based on mindset and explaining the difference between discipline and motivation and explaining, I love talking about the basics of fitness. So I have presentations that are basically fitness one on one, literally, how do you get started from zero to like, just going to the gym and like what you have to do in between the most recent one I've been working on, and I haven't done it yet, but I'm going to do it is called the 10 Minute method. And it's basically how to how to basically see basketball, your fitness in 10 minutes. And the idea behind it is if you can master your mindset in 10 minutes, and it involves basically getting off the couch warming up and committing to the workout in a 10 minute span, you can then achieve all the fitness results you want. So I would say a lot of what we talked about today are very similar to the public speaking aspect of I know one of them was called the beads you have, which I spoke at North Carolina convention last year, actually, it was being virtual, but the idea behind beads you have was because you have to become the person. And then you can do things to have what you want. And most people have that the opposite. They're like, I'm gonna do this. So I can have this and then I'll become this person once I have it. And it's actually you have to reverse engineer it. That system doesn't work as we've seen it considering our society, at least in the US our society right now is it's not working with fitness. So you have to become that person, which most people don't want to do or don't understand. Yeah. And then so it's the B do have method was something I talked about is becoming that person who works out becoming that person does that. So those are some topics I've talked about.

Philip Pape 39:23

That's another 10 minute methods that also related to the coaching calls you tend to do. Yeah, yeah. Okay. Just letting people know. And the beat you have it's funny I've I've interviewed a few people leading to this show. I don't think they're the episodes have come out yet. Of course they will once they see this show, but and it's like that common theme of I don't wanna say positive visualization. Again, that sounds like the the woowoo thing. But if you are somebody a year from now, now, then you're obviously not doing something that that person would do. Right? And that's kind of leading you to do Taking those actions, right? Like, it's almost like you were you've become, imagine if you become that person. And all of a sudden you were in a coma for a year, and you just stopped doing all the things that person would have been doing as part of their habits. Now, you just need to get back to that. It's like,

Scott Friedman 40:12

Yeah, I mean, basically, it's good point. Yeah.

Philip Pape 40:16

So the another question comes to mind then is mindset versus education, right? In your experience, talking to people in the seminars and talking to people in general? How many people just don't know things versus they know the things but need the mindset? Change?

Scott Friedman 40:31

Man is good question. I would say, it's gotta be it's not 5050. But it's pretty close, I would probably say 60%. You know, the issue is a lot of people who don't have the right mindset also don't have the right education. So it's kind of a mix, I would say the people that can literally just make a change, and it's just all in their head is probably about 50 or 40%, I would say 40% of them, like they can do it. I would say 60% need education, they just and they think they know, but when you when you know, for example, you go really into fitness, right? It's okay. Well, if you want to do hypertrophy, and you want to get X amount, how much do you how many calories above your maintenance? Level d of d? How do you find your maintenance level? Calorie? How many reps? How would you rest time in between? And they don't quite know that they know how to work out a new team. The new one? The I call them the basic nuances, because those are simple to figure out. Yeah, I don't I don't get into like the I don't get into the real end of the nuances. Yeah, I don't get into that. I think that's a waste of most people's time in the general population. But I think that the basic nuances are very important. Most people have elicited that. Now, I would say in between those, some people, they can at least go to the gym and lift weights, and they just don't quite know exactly how to put it together. So that answers your question.

Philip Pape 41:41

It does. And it's just I it's for selfish reasons. When I bring guys on this podcast, or ladies, it's I want to learn as much as I can to but hopefully listeners as well. Because, you know, we all have to put our reels out on Instagram. It's like, what do people really need? Do they need to shift their mindset? Do they need to know about macros, you know, or do they need to know about like, oh, what deficit to be at? Yeah, I know. Exactly. It's both. So thanks for letting me on that. All right. I actually do hear hear that. But it's just very subtle. i There's some construction going on with scotch right now. But we can't hear it.

Scott Friedman 42:13

There's a there's a fire truck right next door. And I'm like, great guy.

Philip Pape 42:17

That's what it is. It's the frequency of the siren. Yeah. All right. So the penultimate question I like to ask all guests is what one question. Did you wish I had asked him? What is your answer?

Scott Friedman 42:28

I mean, I think you I think you covered it. I mean, you covered? I mean, I'm not sure there's a question I wished you as I think we had a really good conversation on the mindset, maybe, you know, the only thing I didn't really cover was perception, creating reality. I think that if you're someone who works in corporate America, in which the vast majority are just you have a stressful job, okay? Or you have kids or you have this, like it's, I call it the red light effect. Most of us I have it too. And I'm not better than anyone else. It's just that everyone has it. But it's about the awareness of having it when I'm going to work, okay. And there are 15 red lights, and I hit, you know, seven green lights, eight red lights, what do you tell everyone that came into work? I had every frickin red light. You never acknowledge the positives in your life. Now you'll acknowledge everyone else is positive, except for your own your friend got a promotion, great job, your friend got a girlfriend, great job, you gotta raise. It's not that big a deal? No, you always were so negative towards ourselves. And so that creates the reality we live in. Because the reality is, you just said you missed every light, which is all 15 lights, but in reality is you basically were half and half green, and red. And that's how most life is most of its law, the law of large numbers is half and half, it's usually kind of how it breaks out. So my, the idea is, your perception creates your reality, whether you think it's woowoo, or guru or whatever, and you don't like that stuff. Just think about if you're negative all the time, and you don't you hate your body, you don't want to work out, it's going to create a self fulfilling prophecy where you're going to rationalize, well, I can't work, I'm busy. That's what the excuses come from. I'm too busy. I had a stressful day at work. I hate this. I mean, it's like if you've I've had clients who have, you know, they're a single mother or single father, with three kids on varsity sports, they gotta, and they still beat me to the gym. So it's like, I don't even understand. I'm like, to me, it's like, I understand there's going to be times you're left with things gonna be difficult, but long term, like, if you have a negative perception, that's going to create a negative reality, and that's going to create that constant loop that you're going to be in. And then it's very difficult to break that cycle. So I think that's one thing people fall into is they're so hard on themselves, but yet everyone else gets all the praise, like praise yourself first, like praise yourself feel good about what you're doing, like, oh my god, that's so great. And, and I have a hard time I have a very hard time taking any sort of appreciate. Oh my god, it's gonna be okay. Yeah, cool. Thanks. I don't I love it, but I'm like, I can't show that. I love it. It's weird. So, praise yourself. Appreciate the small wins because you're perception creates your reality. And if you're always negative, you're always doubting yourself. And if you're the workout, just hate that. It's not going to be you're not going to like it, you should be enjoying the beliefs, not hating the process wouldn't say enjoying it, but you should not be hating the process. And you should really focus on spinning that negative. I'm not saying fake Pat, don't fake positivity. Because, you know, if you tell yourself, no, I'm in shape, I'm in shape. I'm in shape, and you're not like you're just lying to yourself, and you know, you're lying to yourself. But if you can acknowledge successes, acknowledge where you're at, and create that silver lining for yourself and how you're going to improve. It will change your life.

Philip Pape 45:33

For sure. Yeah. And how I mean, so just maybe come up with every day or every week, what is one win for today? That happened to me, right, is that, you know, would you say that's an approach or you have other purchase?

Scott Friedman 45:44

If you wake up every morning, what I do every morning, right now, at least I'm attempting to do every morning is a wake up, what is one thing that I'm grateful for, and it can be anything in your life. Now again, if you're going for a specific goal, it can be for a goal but anything in your life, what am I grateful for? It can be it can let in Not to disparage anyone who doesn't have something but like it can be I'm grateful for having all 10 fingers, because now I can button my shirt easily without having a system like that. As simple as that is no one thinks about that until something happens. So it can be as that you have lights that you if you live in the US who have power this winter versus in Europe where they might not have power this way. Like there's certain things you can be grateful for. That may change the narrative, if you're looking for some sort of win and your goal. Yeah, what did you do yesterday that you'd be proud of and be grateful for the next day or be grateful for that night before you go to bed? Either way, when you wake up, go to bed? Yeah, be grateful. If you're grateful for something or one acknowledgement of winning, that can help break the cycle for sure. Awesome.

Philip Pape 46:35

Be grateful. Great way to end the podcast. I think last question would be then where can listeners learn about you and your work?

Scott Friedman 46:42

Oh, my gosh, it's everywhere now. So the power of progress, iTunes, Spotify. Google, we'll find we'll find you somewhere. iTunes Spotify at power of progress on their Instagram, Scott Friedman. 24. And then the website I have is Scott speaks fitness.com those are those are probably the three main places people can and feel free to reach out. I'm always available. I answer every DM that comes my way assuming it's reasonable. And so I'm pretty pretty open with everyone.

Philip Pape 47:09

Cool, everybody DM Scott right now. So his inbox gets flooded yet to be happy to help. I'll put those links in the show notes of the podcast, the website, Instagram listeners can find you. And again, Scott, thank you again, man. This is a really great talk. I had a lot of fun. Hope you did as well. Thanks for coming on. Oh,

Scott Friedman 47:26

absolutely. I appreciate it. Thank you so much.

Philip Pape 47:30

Philip Pape 3/3/23 Philip Pape 3/3/23

Ep 49: Q&A - Bigger Glutes, Insulin Resistance, Carb Cycling, Refeeds, and Fat Intake for Hormones

In this Q&A episode, I answer five questions from members of the Wits & Weights Facebook community covering training, nutrition, and health.

This is another Q&A episode!

Today I’m answering five questions from members of the Wits & Weights Facebook community covering training, nutrition, and health.

Questions:

I want to build my glutes. How many times a week should I train them? Is once a week too little?
How would you train and coach someone differently who struggles with insulin resistance?
What do you think about carb cycling? Is it beneficial to load up on carbs and calories and reduce fat on the workout days (mostly before and after the heavy lifting session), and reduce carbs and calories a lot and increase fat on the non-lifting days, assuming you maintain protein and your weekly calorie deficit? I am aiming for body recomposition. Will I feel increased performance during workout and avoid metabolic adaptations?
Are refeeding days okay when you are in a fat loss phase? Like one day a week when you intentionally eat at maintenance as opposed to a deficit?
I have a client who has gastrointestinal issues from having her gallbladder removed and heard that fat intake shouldn’t be higher than 30%. The question is, how do I stay within that 30% if her body needs fat to produce hormones? She is suffering from poor digestion, falling asleep periodically and can’t sleep a full night. So I know there is a hormonal imbalance.

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At Wits & Weights, we help you achieve optimal health that fits your lifestyle—without excessive dieting, cardio, or food restrictions. Philip Pape, host and certified nutrition coach, helps high-achieving people use their wits to build their body, reclaim their time, and gain control over food through one-on-one nutrition and lifestyle coaching.

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Transcript

Philip Pape 00:08

Philip Pape 00:31

Welcome to another episode of Wits & Weights. This is another q&a episode. And today I'm answering five questions from members of the Wits & Weights, Facebook community, covering training, nutrition and health. You can find the group linked in the show notes or just search for Wits & Weights on Facebook. All right, let's just dive into today's questions. Question number one is from Christine y, who asks, I want to build my glutes. How many times a week should I train them is once a week too little? Okay, so when I think of a specific body part, my first question is going to be are you already working on the overall basic human movements before we start focusing on a specific body part. And what I mean by that are using compound lifts, like the squat, and like the deadlift that engage your full range of motion in a natural movement, using lots of muscle mass, because that will build overall strength and size in parallel, and will start to I guess, even out the various muscle imbalances that you start with as a beginner, and help you build that first base of strength and size. And then is when I would start to add in additional accessory movements and isolation movements. And from a programming perspective, if we start there, your question was is once a week, too little. And the way I like to look at it is overall sets during the week, as well as frequency. So overall sets, we're looking at somewhere between nine and 12 sets a week per major muscle group. And of course, the glutes are just part of the hip musculature. There's some tie ins with the hamstrings, there's an aspect of your lower back involved, etc. And different angles that you can hit it. So if you could work out directly once a week and indirectly once a week. That would be from a frequency perspective, a pretty effective training program. And you would either get that through full body work, or you're hitting it two or three times a week anyway through big movements. Or it could be something like a four day split, where two of those days are lower body, and you can use one of those to be more targeted. As far as each of those workouts, I'd like to see one compound lift in the quote unquote strength range like the four to six rep range. And then one or two variants of the lift or accessory slash isolation movements. You know, later on in the workout, it may not be back to back with that first movement. It may be after some other big heavy movements for your overall training. But that's the way I would look at it. So what does that look like a compound movement would be squat deadlift, in the four to six rep range. For example, a variant could be a Romanian deadlift, or a different form of a squat that emphasizes the hips, or even something like a leg press Believe it or not, because we are getting a little bit more into the hypertrophy bodybuilding discussion when we're saying, Let's emphasize a specific part of the body. Now, there are plenty of accessory movements for the glutes. Some things that I like include, of course, the classic hip thrusts that we can do with the barbell, but I also like barbell reverse lunges, I actually prefer those over the forward lunges, I think you can get a deeper stretch and it's a little bit more of a natural movement. To do it up properly. I think the forward lunge, sometimes the the knee relative to the foot is isn't a bad place for people to get a lot of stress on the knee. So I like the reverse lunge with a barbell. I also like barbells step ups, just doing some really heavy barbell step ups to a box that's reasonably high but not too high, can really smash your glutes. And then when you get to smaller isolation movements, we're looking at things like heavy kettlebell swings, or even cable pull throughs where you have a cable in the low position, and you use the rope attachment with the two handles kind of what people use for tricep pushdowns and it's between your legs and you're basically just pulling it out and coming to an upright position so that you squeeze the glutes. So those are just a bunch of different movements. You could just search online for you know best movements for the glutes and you'll find I in 20, different things. But I would have a compound lift in the four to six rep range, and then one or two variants in probably the eight to 12 rep range. But you can mix that up, you could go, you know, four to six, six to 810 to 15, depending on your programming style, what you're looking to accomplish. And the most important thing with all of this, of course, is progressive overload. So whatever you select, stick with it for a while. And while it could be something like four to eight weeks in your training cycle, and make sure to increase the weight over time, when you're working in a rep range, you want to pick a weight that's maybe toward the top of the rep range, and then you go up in weight each session, the reps come down, and then when you get to the bottom of that rep range, then you decrease the weight to a little bit more than what you were able to get for the top of the rep range to begin with. So you're kind of going up, up, up, then you're resetting but not as far down as you started and go up, up up, and then you're resetting. So it's kind of this up and down, but gradually, gradually increasing your maxes for all of those rep ranges, if that makes sense. Okay, so that is my answer to building your glutes. And let's move on to question two. Question two is from Kayla H, who asks, How would you train and coach someone differently who struggles with insulin resistance? Insulin resistance is usually associated with metabolic disease, which is pre diabetes, and ultimately leading to type two diabetes. And this is where there's too much glucose circulating and remaining in the blood. And I'm going to assume for this question that this person has not yet developed diabetes. And I hate to say yet, we don't want to do that we want to reduce the risk or just altogether prevent it. And if it's not too late, then we can definitely do that. Now, almost all the lifestyle principles that I would use with any client who wants to improve their health, for any reason, still apply, and are in fact, the primary factors in reducing risk outside of don't smoke, and outside of whatever your genetics are. Let's start with nutrition. On the nutrition side, we want to have nutrient dense, high fiber foods like fruits, vegetables, whole grains, lean animal products, we want to limit our saturated fat to maybe 10% of our calories, have plenty of protein, and limit our processed foods, we don't have to eliminate them, but somewhere between 10 and 20% of our overall calories. And these are just all the things that we shift toward when dialing in our macros, using a flexible dieting approach. And using strategies like managing hunger during a fat loss phase, that those things drive how we select foods, we don't use a, you know, good or bad food diet, we don't say this is excluded, we say, you know, enjoy the things you like, but limit them to 10 to 20% of the calories discretionary. And the rest is devoted to mostly Whole Foods, things that serve your goals, generally, animal sources of products for proteins, plant sources for micronutrients. And you limit things like saturated fat, and you're good. And this helps with everybody, including people who have an issue with insulin resistance. On the movement side. This is also extremely important besides the nutrition, we have, of course strength training, why would I not talk about strength training on this on this show, and going for walks every day. It's not just the step count, but making sure you get up and move every day, especially after you eat meals. Walking after a meal is highly effective for regulating blood sugar. So of insulin resistance, or the opposite of that, which is sensitivity, which is what you want, is a concern of yours than walk after meals, even for 10 minutes makes a huge difference. Strength training, of course, is also highly effective, because you add muscle mass and muscle mass increases insulin sensitivity. They're like your muscles are like a sink for energy. And building muscle is just one of the best things you could do for about just about every health marker you can think of, as we talked about all the time on the show. But even for insulin sensitivity, it's huge. It that combined with eating carbs regularly and throughout the day, actually will help with insulin sensitivity. Believe it or not, carbs are not your enemy in this regard. Now, here's another fun fact. High intensity interval training or HIIT can elevate blood sugar in the short term, but it actually lowers average blood sugar over the long term. So if you want to incorporate some hit sessions during the week as part of a cardio, slash calorie burn strategy, that's fine, you know, as we talked about on the show, don't overdo it with cardio, be strategic, limit it to that Less than half the time that you lift, but if you need it hit can be effective. Now, what's the common denominator here, that improving your body composition through training, movement, and a healthy dietary pattern are good for everyone. Whether you are at risk of diabetes, insulin resistance or not, it's good for everyone. And if you're not doing these things consistently, start there and then start to look at other things as needed. Okay, question three is from Christos D. who asks, What do you think about carb cycling? Is it beneficial to load up on carbs and calories and reduce fat on the workout days, mostly before and after the heavy lifting session, and reduce carbs and calories significantly and increase fat? On the non lifting days? Assuming you maintain protein and your weekly calorie deficit? I'm aiming for body composition, will I feel increased performance during workouts and avoid metabolic adaptations? Okay, I know there's a lot in that question. Basically, Christos is asking is Is carb cycling worth it? For performance, and to avoid adaptation? Okay, metabolic adaptation where our metabolism declines as we get further and further into a diet. So he's not asking about fat loss, we know that fat loss and weight loss are driven by your calorie deficit. And fat loss specifically is driven by the fact that you strength train and have sufficient protein, He's not asking about that, because if he were, I would say, there's absolutely no benefit in carb cycling whatsoever. He's asking about performance and adaptation. So the main reason someone would carb cycle, which is eating more carbs on Sundays than others is, all it is, is to stick to your diet. It's for psychological reasons for adherence. And carb cycling is just one form of a refeed, or what we call nonlinear dieting, where you just have different calories on different days, or different carbs in different days, or you take breaks, it's all really the same idea. Now, as far as performance, let's start there, the evidence, frankly, is neutral. So when you carb cycle, I want you to think about the overall effect on your week, when you're carb cycling, you're actually depriving yourself from the other days. So on your recovery days, where you're not training, you're now depriving yourself of energy, even though you of course have more glycogen and energy on training days. So because of that, there, it might be a wash, but you have to try it yourself, because for some people, there might be a small boost in performance. If you time it right, simply because you do have that extra glycogen uptake and storage from the carp. So it could help with performance, I'm not ruling it out, the evidence is kind of neutral. But again, n equals one, you've got to try it on yourself. As far as metabolic adaptation, there doesn't seem to be any benefit. Studies have looked at refeeds with the hypothesis that the extra influx of nutrition of energy would cause your hormones to readapt upward and this would shift your metabolism up and make you burn more calories. And then you can start from a higher starting point to continue a diet, for example. But it doesn't work. That way, it all nets out. When you go back to the diet, you readapt right back to where you were, there's only two ways to shift your metabolism, the permanent way to do it is to have more muscle mass. And of course, that takes time, the temporary way to do it is to burn more calories. But we want to do it strategically and intelligently with especially through walking primarily, if not a little bit of cardio here and there. But if you overdo it, you're gonna actually cause more adaptation. Anyway, having said all of that, there's very little upside. And it's probably neutral in terms of carb cycling. And the downside is the complexity is trying to track all of this and do it right, and then not only have the higher and lower days, but making sure they're lined up with your training days, which might move around depending on your schedule, and then what time in the day you train, it's a lot of stuff. If you want to experiment with it, this is how I would do it, I would just increase your deficit on low carb days. So make your low carb days even lower than they are today. And then your high carb days add more carbs in but still stay in a deficit. This is how you would have your your weekly calories overall, in the deficit you want to be without slowing down your fat loss, you're going to keep protein the same, you're going to keep fat around 25 30% of your calories. And then the rest comes from carbs. So when your high carb days, it's going to be like two to three times as many carbs as your low carb days when you do it this way. Now my clients pretty much do not carb cycle unless they just want to try it out for fun, or see if it helps their training as an experiment. Most of them do not and if they've tried it, they usually go back to even calorie distribution at the end of the day. I think that the timing of carbs is probably more beneficial than trying to cycle the them day after, you know, from one day to the next. And so making sure you have that pre workout meal in your system, or a decent amount of carbs at dinner the night before, if you train in the morning, I think is going to be more helpful for fueling that, that lifting session.

Philip Pape 15:18

Philip Pape 2/28/23 Philip Pape 2/28/23

Ep 48: Overcome Any Obstacle and Stay Fit While Thriving with a Disability with Kevin McShan

A few months ago, I joined Kevin McShan on his incredible and prolific podcast, Let’s Have This Conversation, and he returned the favor to talk about how to thrive while living with a disability. Through Kevin’s experience in sports, journalism, podcasting, and advocating for those with disabilities, he brings an exciting blend of education, experience, and entertainment to the motivational speaking industry.

A few months ago, I joined Kevin McShan on his incredible and prolific podcast, Let’s Have This Conversation, and he’s returning the favor today to talk about how to thrive while living with a disability.

Kevin McShan is a graduate of St. Clair College’s Journalism, Print and New Media Program. Kevin has an extensive history of promoting employment equality for individuals with disabilities most recently, as the Job Developer and Enhanced Employer Support Facilitator with the YMCA of Windsor-Essex County. He also continues the effort of promoting inclusion for people with disabilities through his motivational speaking efforts.

Through Kevin’s experience in sports, journalism, podcasting, and advocating for those with disabilities, he brings an exciting blend of education, experience, and entertainment to the motivational speaking industry.

Topics discussed in this episode:

Kevin's story and how he brings seemingly unlimited energy to the world
Advice for someone facing adversity to overcome any obstacle
How business leaders and individuals can foster a culture of inclusion and diversity
How to achieve equity and equality for individuals with disabilities in the workplace
How to thrive while living with a disability
How to stay physically active while living with a disability
Why fitness is so important
Unique nutritional considerations to complement fitness and lifestyle
Kevin's advice for someone living with a disability on how to get started with fitness
What he has learned from producing so many podcast episodes and talking with so many people

RELATED LINKS

Kevin's website - kevinmcshan.com
Find Kevin on Twitter - @McShan819
Download the Lets Have This Conversation podcast
Check out the Lets Have This Conversation YouTube channel
Watch the episode on video here

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Transcript

Philip Pape 00:08

Philip Pape 00:30

Welcome to another episode of Wits & Weights. I had the pleasure of meeting Kevin MC Shan as a guest on his his powerful prolific podcast let's have this conversation. And unfortunate he's joining me on the show to talk about how to thrive while living with a disability. Kevin MC Shan is a graduate of St. Clair College's journalism, print and new media program. He has an extensive history of Promoting Employment Equality for individuals with disabilities, most recently as the job developer and enhanced Employer Support Facilitator with the YMCA of Windsor Essex County. Kevin also continues the effort of promoting inclusion for people with disabilities through his motivational speaking efforts. Through his experience in sports, journalism, podcasting, and advocating for those with disabilities. Kevin brings an exciting blend of education experience and entertainment to the motivational speaking industry. Kevin, thank you, man so much for coming on the show. Phil, I'm delighted to be with you this afternoon. And I'm excited to engage in conversation, my friend always great to see you. And thank you for a few minutes. Absolutely. Likewise, man, I think this is gonna be a fun time and the listeners really going to learn a lot about a topic. We haven't really dived into today, what we're going to blend discussion of fitness with living with disability and a little of everything the conversation takes us to. So you know, let's just start off with you've got this seemingly unlimited energy, at least the way I see it. And you're bringing all this information and impact to the world. When we recorded your the episode for your podcast. On that day, you told me it was the fifth recording for the day. So immediately, I was impressed by your hustle your work ethic. And my question is, who is Kevin mission? And how do you do it?

Kevin McShan 02:19

First of all, I'm severely

Kevin McShan 02:24

overqualified to be on this podcast. But

Kevin McShan 03:22

should have a platform to share their story and espouse their views. And my wanting to have conversations is because I want people to be

Kevin McShan 03:39

connected in terms of building bridges of inclusion, acceptance, and diversity. So I'm all about bringing people together and having conversations that move the needle of progress forward. Awesome. I don't think anybody can really argue with that. And I really appreciate your podcast. Sometimes you put out a couple episodes in one day or more. And it's amazing the diversity of guests and topics that you cover.

Philip Pape 04:06

Let's get in a little bit to the specific topic today, which is really about overcoming obstacles, which I think is something you've obviously done. Like you said, you take control of the situation rather than letting it control you. What's your advice when someone is faced with that kind of adversity in their life, whether whether it's a disability or really any obstacle? Well, I'll show a quick story. So So I have an identical twin brother Keith and I were both born with cerebral palsy. We were also born three months premature, my friends. So I always overcome obstacles in my life. And you know, people often tell me that I'm an inspiring person, and I simply tell them that I live my life. But to answer your question more directly, I think overcoming adversity lies in response to whatever the advice

Kevin McShan 05:00

Our city is we're all going to experiences, challenge and tribulations in life. And no matter how big and small, it all depends on the quality of the response and the commitment to sort of reinvent yourself with ossicles happen because, you know, fly foam has happened and strengthen their online, but would be very, very boring. So my advice to people is use adversity as a chance to grow and overcome their fears in life. And also expand again, that diversity of perspective.

Philip Pape 05:46

Yeah, I love that reinventing yourself. Because, I mean, everybody is faced with obstacles of some kind or another, it's not, you know, obviously, I can't fully appreciate what you've had to go through, but I and others, and everybody on the planet has had things that they've faced, and it's their personal story and their personal struggle they've had to get over. So that idea of what do you do to mold yourself around the obstacle, because you can't change the situation around you, but you can change your situation is a really great message. So one of your missions is to promote the inclusion that you were talking about for people with disabilities in the employment side, you know, I want to get into that a little bit before we then tie it more into the fitness. But how do business leaders how do individuals foster that culture of inclusion and diversity to achieve that mission? Yeah, no,

Kevin McShan 06:33

Phil, I Oh, I always said starts with engage, engaging in a process of fostering the commitment. What I mean by that is, you don't have to create the conditions in order for something to happen. And while you know, it's one thing to put at the end of a job description, we're committed to being an equal opportunity employer or that we commit to diversity, if you don't actually do it. So it starts with a commitment to the process of engagement in terms of diversity, equity, and inclusion. And I also think it's a commitment to the realization of sort of embracing the process of education, you know, employers don't know what they don't know, right. And so, in order to embrace a new culture, you have to come with an open mind to learn and growing and experiencing new things. You know, here in Canada, Phil Ivey, federal government tells us that 59% of folks with disabilities are unemployed compared to 80% of their non disabled counterparts. So it starts with a commitment to the process of inclusion and always be open to the prospect of education, knowledge, and awareness. Because, you know, I always say that life is a constant game of learning, and it never ends. But one of the mottos that I live my life by is the day you stop learning, they die, no matter how much money you make, or how much experience you have, he could always learn something new from somebody else.

Philip Pape 08:28

Absolutely. Yeah. You don't know what you don't know. So it's almost like you embrace the fact that there's this this ignorance that we all have, and it's okay. And we need to learn and be aware and seek out that knowledge. I think, you know, avenues like your podcast, and others are one way to do it. But of course, going out and reaching these, these companies and businesses, like you do is even a more active, proactive way to do that. Now, inclusion is one thing, but I think equality is another maybe there's a nuanced difference between the two, when we talk about equality. So how do we achieve equity and equality for individuals with disabilities in the workplace?

Kevin McShan 09:04

You don't fill out with that. Talent is equally distributed. Oh, come on, are they but sometimes opportunity isn't. So it starts again, with a commitment to the opportunity of advancement. If you commit to fostering the opportunities, then increase the equity. So it starts with a commitment to that opportunity, and embracing the concept of advancement.

Philip Pape 09:31

Okay, yeah, equal opportunity, which then leads to quality. Very cool. So Kevin, I do want to talk about fitness. That's what this podcast is primarily about. And I know it's important to you just as it is to me and the viewers and listeners of the show. So how do you thrive while living with a disability?

Kevin McShan 09:49

You don't fill just before I jumped on this podcast, but I went through physiotherapy this morning. So just a little bit about the inner market. because of my disability, you know, one of the side effects of my disability feel is that my muscles contract faster than most people. So if I don't exercise and if I don't use them, I lose them faster I'm because of the disability and getting older. So walking, swimming, stretching during hamstring stretches is big for me, I'm big into lifting weights. I love to swim, as I said, and, you know, one of the tenants of my life is always active field because I found out at nine years old, from the doctor that did mine did my last surgery and all of the surgeries for my disability that I wouldn't be able to walk without the assistance of a walker, and I wouldn't be able to get around without a wheelchair. But being physically active, being physically active is vitally important to me, because it's a chance for me to continue, continue to continue towards the commitment and conversation of progress. So one of the tenants that I live my life by is always active, I challenge myself to be at least 10 minutes active each day, whether that's one thing lead, whether it's walking, whether it's. So one of the tenants that I live, my life by again, is always active. And I challenge myself to get at least 10 minutes a day of exercise,

Philip Pape 11:43

that I wish everybody did that no matter who they are getting whatever amount of activity every day, like you said, is so important. So I want to dig in a little more tell us about what kind of movements you incorporate. I mean, is there kind of a program you follow for, let's say, the lifting weights, in terms of maintaining strength, for example.

Kevin McShan 12:03

Yeah, so I live between weights between 10 and 25 pounds on a regular basis, just so that I have some level of consistency. I also have a big Walker, because movement, for me is important. Moving my hamstrings is important, I love to swim through because, you know, when you swim, the GrabIt is last and part of so part of my disability, I have a lot of lactic acid, my hamstrings and that just because of the tightness of the hamstring, so many of those swelling, right until the gravity of sort of the ground is lifted and my muscles are are freer. That makes sense. So I'm a big swimmer, like lifting weights, as I said, and walking is a regular part of my fitness record.

Philip Pape 13:02

Now, this is an interesting question came to mind for me, because you have a, you have a situation, the situation you exist in because of your condition makes it that much more critical and important that you do these things. But are there other drivers you have? Right? Because not everybody is can be driven necessarily by the same purpose their entire life? And I'm just curious, you know, is fitness important to you for any other reasons?

Kevin McShan 13:26

Oh, well, Fitness is important to me feel because I want to live. And, you know, Fitness is important to me. Because, you know, it's another way to lead by the example of your actions. And you know, you know, I always tell people, I don't do things that I will, I wouldn't ask others to do things that I'm not willing to do. So Fitness is important to me, and only telling you by example, but also to live a higher quality of life because you know, you only have a one chance to do this grand experiment of life. And I want to maximize the moment, you know, when I talk to businesses or people as a motivational speaker, Phil, I always tell them to maximize their own higher potential, whatever that means with that person is what that means for that person. And the second thing I always say, Phil, is that the only level of expectations that you have to live on your own because if you don't have a personal level of expectations, it's hard to measure up or be inspired to reach a second milestone that somebody else said for you. So it's always important to set your own level of expectations, isn't it?

Philip Pape 14:55

Absolutely. I love everything you're saying. It's just great. I can see why you're a motivational speaker. it because Kevin, I mean, talking about having personal standards and living up to those and the high quality of life. I mean, these are, these are great messages for people out there. Because there's plenty of people who are just aren't active, and they have the potential there, whether it's whether it's strength, whether it's movement, and it's a, it's a relative change. So what they're doing today, right, I mean, if you, if you currently don't walk, well maybe walk for five minutes, if you currently walk for 20 minutes a day, maybe you could do 30. So that's a great message. Hey, this is Philip Pape. And if you feel like you've put in effort to improve your health and fitness, but aren't getting results, I invite you to apply for a one on one coaching to make real progress and get the body you desire. We'll work together to figure out what's missing so you can look better, perform better and feel better. Just go to wits & weights.com/coaching, to learn about my program and apply today. Now back to the episode. The align with the nutrition or the fitness side is the nutrition side. Are there unique nutritional considerations you have to complement your fitness lifestyle?

Kevin McShan 16:03

Well, first and foremost, Phil, I always say when people ask me about nutrition, everything in moderation, right? So and you know, one of the one of the things that I have to learn is, just because the apple pies in the fridge doesn't always mean I have to eat it right now. But to answer your question, in terms of fitness, I tried to eat a lot of protein, and drink a lot of Malcolm elcas Something that's important to me, because it helps to strengthen my bone density. I drink a lot of milk, you know, apples and grapes, and I'm a big fruit guidance in terms of that. As I said, I did a lot of protein, I had chicken pasta for once today. So I do a lot of chicken and rice and all of that stuff. So I always tell myself, if you know, if I want to live in extra five minutes, it's important to always know what I'm putting in my body and the results that come from putting it in to the system, right? Because once it goes in, it's hard to get it out. So it's always important to know what you're putting in and, you know, salary and carrots, something that I enjoy eating as well, for sure.

Philip Pape 17:32

I can't disagree with anything there, man, you've got all the delicious ingredients that we talk about the protein fruits, vegetables, fiber, milk is great. Yeah, good stuff, man. So if somebody is listening right now, and they're, and specifically, they're in a situation where they have a disability, and they don't know how to get started in improving their physical health, what would be your advice for them?

Kevin McShan 17:57

Well, first, I would say you're committed to the commitment. You know, every disability is different, you know, I was fortunate enough that the level of disability that I have, still allows me to talk, walk and, and move around. So first of all, be committed to the commitment that you're going to make to your health. Because if you are not committed, it's hard to have a sustainable future in your health journey. So that's the first thing I would say. The second thing I would say is go at your own pace. Because each disability is different. And everybody's level of success is, is different. You know, I always say painting a portrait of success is different from all of us. And as I said, previously, set your own level of expectations, because that'll keep you accountable and keeping you motivated and invested in your own process.

Philip Pape 19:14

So set your set your expectations, remain committed and go at your own pace. I think that last one or the one about going at your own pace is really important message. Because people try to take on too much at once I think or, you know, they they want that instant gratification of getting the result. And they say okay, well I have to go from you know, I get 2000 steps a day. So I'm gonna go to 12, right, or I get five hours of sleep and I'm gonna go to eat. So is there. If we dig into that just one more level? How does somebody do that? In terms of, you know, going at their own pace? Are there specific actions you recommend or an approach?

Kevin McShan 19:51

So the first thing I would say is hold yourself accountable to a schedule like I mentioned. Before I challenge myself to be at least 10 minutes active the day, obviously, I think you're wrong. Or if I'm walking, for example, or, for example, when I go swimming, I try to go for between 45 minutes to an hour. And you know what one thing that people don't know, Phil is may not know is if you exercise more regularly, it helps with, at least for me, it helps with sleep, overall quality of life. So if you want pieces of advice, know that exercise helps you to elevate the quality of every aspect of your life, I would say that would be my overall arching message is dependent on the quality of life that you want to live will determine the amount of, or the level of commitment that you're willing to put into something.

Philip Pape 21:06

Yeah, that's awesome. So if you want a high quality life, and you're listening, as much as you can invest in yourself, when it comes to movement, exercise, nutrition, you're gonna get out of it. And it's much bigger than the short term goal, right? It's much bigger than the day to day it's, it's it's committing to it and scheduling it in, like Kevin mentioned, and focusing on what it can do for you overall. So I love that you've been getting more sleep because you exercise everything's interrelated. That's great. So, your, your podcast, let's have this conversation. I think it's around 600 episodes now. And the topics. It is right, it's just, I don't know how many you put out a year, but it's a lot. The topics are very wide ranging. And the mission is to provide a thought provoking experience, which I think you succeed at regularly. So my question is, what have you learned from the experience of producing so many episodes with so many people?

Kevin McShan 22:04

is either a labor of love or insanity? No? Yeah. Yeah. Thank you for the question. So the podcast is two episodes, giant 600 episodes. And, you know, I started the podcast because I wanted to have a vehicle or a platform that built bridges of inclusion. You know, Phil, when I started the podcast, I looked at society. And I said, there are far too many sort of vehicles that Interpol us polls apart. So I wanted to start the can start the conversation or start the podcast, because I wanted to have a platform to move the needle of progress forward. And to answer your question more specifically. So number one lesson that I've learned hosting the podcast now for almost two and a half years, I started that venture in May of 2020. And is to really value the diversity of perspectives. Because even the viewpoints that I may disagree with, that I allow the space to be broadcast on my podcast, it's important to have people that you agree with and have people that you disagree with, because it broadens your diversity of perspective. So the answer to the question is the number one lesson that I've learned is to embrace the quality of diversity of perspective.

Philip Pape 23:52

Yeah, and I think that's something a lot of us have to work on, myself included, when I just reflect on what you just said, and bring guests on to my show, you know, am I am I just looking for people who agree with what I say? Or am I really trying to bring on those perspectives so that we can have that deeper dialogue and allow people to draw their own conclusions from that? So you know, giving me something to think about as well. I do like to ask this question of all guests. And that is one question. What one question Did you wish I'd asked and what is your answer?

Kevin McShan 24:22

That's a fabulous question. You know, for me, you know, Phil, I'm all was about challenging myself to be 1% Better than I was the day before. And you know, why, to me is a fragile gift. You know, we're, we're all here for a very short amount of time, and no matter how long we live, and for me, life is about making the most impact for the most people like Ken, because life is all about impact. If you're not working towards increasing the amount of personal and professional impact on others, then you'll live a very selfish and non fulfilling lives. So it's important to me to continue the conversation of progress, and to challenge myself to be 1% Better than I was the day before. So, you know, one of the questions that I always asked my pod testing yesterday, I think I asked you this question, when you were on my show is, how do you celebrate, celebrate the wins in life, because, you know, celebrating the wins in life is important. Because, you know, we're also on to the next thing, and this, it's ratification society, but it's important to celebrate wins in life. And I tried to, to do that. Some days better than others. But, you know, celebrating wins in life is important. And also celebrating the progress towards prosperity that we've all made is also important, isn't it? Yeah, for sure.

Philip Pape 26:17

Be right, because we can get cynical and negative. And we we don't often reflect on the great things that not only are we achieving, but the impact we're making on people. This reminds me of another guest who came on and talked about gratitude. And he was saying that, you know, we often express gratitude for for other things when we do that, but don't often express gratitude for ourselves. And I think I can tie that to the to what you were just saying, How does somebody get up in the morning? Who's had, but for lack of a better word, they just had a rough week? How do they ask the question of themselves that triggers the thought of that those wins? Like, how do you ask yourself? Did I have a win?

Kevin McShan 26:57

You know, I'm reminded of a guest that I interviewed. His name is Travis Shelton, and Travis is a financial coach. And he said, reading, reading my personal story and watching videos on me, you know, he said, there was one overriding theme that he admired about men, and he said, it was the fact that I keep moving forward. You know, or one of the mottos of my life is, you know, I'm not a huge fan of excuses, because I think excuses are determined to progress and artificial reasons not to progress in life. So I think if you're having a bad day or having a bad week, it's all about keep moving forward and keep, keep trying to strive for whatever the definition of prosperity, prosperity is that you have for your life. So keep moving forward, always look for ways to maximize the moment of potential and didn't pack for sure.

Philip Pape 28:22

Keep moving forward, each day's a new day. Whatever happened in the past is almost irrelevant to today. Right? I think another guests that I interviewed also use the phrase, the futures a string of today's right. So I think that really resonates with me, Kevin, I want to thank you for coming on the show and give you the opportunity to let listeners know where they can learn more about you and your work.

Kevin McShan 28:44

Well, Phil, I think I said at the beginning of this podcast that I was overqualified, I meant to say that I'm,

Philip Pape 28:52

I knew that I knew what you meant no worries.

Kevin McShan 28:57

On the show, but I want to thank you for giving me the space to engage in conversation today. It's most appreciated. Great to see you. And for anyone that wants to learn more about me they can find all of the information about my life and my journey at Kevin mccann.com They can also find the podcast wherever you get your podcast is for let's have this conversation. The show's YouTube channel is just let let's have this conversation. If you type that in my name afterwards, all my stuff comes out. So it was a delight to be with you. I want to remind your audience to always maximize the moment because Phil you never know who's watching, right?

Philip Pape 29:46

You never know maximize the moment no excuses and each day is a new new day to maximize your potential. So, Kevin, you know, I'll definitely add the links to your your website, Kevin mcshane.com. And I want everybody here to subscribe to the lesson. Have a conversation podcast. It was really a joy talking to you again, hearing this unique, inspirational motivational perspective and kind of opening my eyes to your experience of living with a disability because I really didn't know much about that. And from the fitness and nutrition side. Thanks again, man for taking the time to come on the show I wish you the best with with everything.

Kevin McShan 30:19

Well, Phil, it was always an honor to be with you this afternoon. And I appreciate the platform and space to share a little bit about my personal journey. So it was great to see you and I hope I added value to your audience. I want to wish you the best of luck with the show. I think you're doing amazing work and I'm glad that we got a chance to be in each other's that works. And I look forward to my continued friendship, my friend best of luck with the podcast and all of your other endeavors. And again, thanks for having me. It's most appreciated.

Philip Pape 30:59

Likewise, Kevin, very much a pleasure. Thanks for listening to the show. Before you go, I have a quick favor to ask. If you enjoy the podcast, let me know by leaving a five star review in Apple podcasts and telling others about the show. Thanks again for joining me Philip Pape in this episode of Wits & Weights. I'll see you next time and stay strong.

Philip Pape 2/21/23 Philip Pape 2/21/23

Ep 47: Upgrade Your Fitness, Health Relationships, and Communication with Carl Berryman

This one is for all the men listening to the show. I am joined by my man Carl Berryman for a conversation about being a man, from fitness to communication to expressing your feelings and everything in between. Carl is a Personal Trainer turned Men’s Movement Advocate. He is a man who had his world crumble around him, was able to put back the pieces, and simply wants to share his strategies for success so that other men don’t have to suffer the same fate he did.

This one is for all the men listening to the show. I am joined by my man Carl Berryman for a conversation about being a man, from fitness to communication to expressing your feelings and everything in between.

You MUST check out Carl's podcast, Inspired by Impact, where he delves into all areas of your life to apply the strategies you learn in the gym OUTSIDE the gym to be a better man.

Carl is a Personal Trainer turned Men’s Movement Advocate. He is a man who had his world crumble around him, was able to put back the pieces, and simply wants to share his strategies for success so that other men don’t have to suffer the same fate he did.

Topics discussed in this episode:

Carl's background from personal trainer to Men's Movement Advocate
The concept of the Mental Muscle-Up
Why men make up 80% of suicides
Why women initiate 70% of divorces
What's wrong with the fitness industry
Why men don't know how to communicate with their partners
Why men can't express their feelings
What emotional intelligence means for a man
Getting into the best shape of your life
The importance of accountability for self and loved ones; shouldering suffering
What Carl does for fun
The best books for men to become better men

RELATED LINKS

Find Carl on Instagram - @ignitetheimpact
Download the Inspired by Impact podcast
Watch the episode on video here

👏 ENJOY THE SHOW?

Leave a review with Apple
Become a supporter with a subscription (and get a shout out!)

👉 Just go to witsandweights.com/coaching to connect with me.
👥 To join our Facebook community for live training, free guides, free challenges, and more, just click here.

🙋‍♀️ HOW TO ASK A QUESTION FOR THE SHOW

👉 If you have any questions, just click here.

👨‍💻 HOSTED BY

Philip Pape of Wits & Weights (Instagram 👉 @witsandweights)

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Transcript

Philip Pape 00:08

Philip Pape 00:31

Welcome to another episode of Wits & Weights. This one is for all the guys listening to the show because I am joined by Carl Berryman, for a conversation about being a man from fitness to communication to expressing your feelings and everything in between my guests, Carl is a personal trainer turned men's movement advocate. Carl's a man who had his world crumbled around him, was able to foot back to pieces and simply wants to share his strategies for success. So other men don't have to suffer the same fate. He did. Carl, man, thank you for coming on the show. Thank you so much, Philip. I'm really looking forward to this after hearing some of your podcasts already. So this is gonna be it'll be great. And I appreciate that that you're listening to. We've been going back and forth before the show. And I'm excited for today because we're going to cover some new ground for us. I've had a lot of women come on and talk about women's issues. And now we're going to dive into the other side of the equation which is relevant to me and a lot of listeners. Let's just start with your story. You know, you were a personal trainer, you're now a men's movement advocate. So who is Carl Berryman? And what is your mission? What's your purpose in life?

Carl Berryman 01:37

Okay, well really, really simply the longest story short possible. what my purpose is, is the way that I phrase it in my head is to inspire the dreams of humanity through the living my own and help other men or people around the world ignite the impact they wish to see in their world. Really simple. And so to put it really, really short in 2020 was December 4 2020. Actually, I had a really harsh wake up call in terms of how much my life was so far from where I wanted to be. And what spawned that was I got up and I decided I was going to get a jump on the New Year's resolution. Keep in mind, I've been a personal trainer for it's coming up 12 years now. So I wasn't in horrible shape, but I wasn't how I want it to be like there was still some room for improvement.

Carl Berryman 02:27

So I got up December 4 2020 took a glamour shot in the mirror with my shirt off. And I didn't realize like I went to put it in a folder in my phone. And I didn't realize I'd taken a shot the exact same day the year before. But I hadn't taken a picture in between. And the pictures looked exactly the same. I was like, wow, I went an entire year thinking I was crushing my nutrition and my fitness and gone nowhere. So that was really humbling. And I don't know why. But a voice inside me asked me, Carl, if you've been deluding yourself with regards to your fitness, where else are you deluding yourself. And I found out it was everywhere. And inside of my romantic relationship with my partner, Jenny Lee, we become roommates instead of partners were Yeah, we were good friends and everything. And there was no animosity, but there was no passion, there was no excitement, like intimacy was few and far between, and battled with depression really, really hard to the point where there were many, many mornings where I just couldn't get myself out of bed in the morning to the point where if I had clients, I would text them that my dog was sick or something like this. So ashamed of how depressed I felt, even though I was living my purpose because I had quit my job four years prior to pursue my purpose of personal training. And it was a hardcore wake up call. And at that point, I decided, okay, I really first of all need to get my body in check. So I did some very simple shifts and ended up having a radical transformation in a very short period of time. And then at the end of that I asked, okay, well, if I could do it with my body, can I do it with my relationships? Can I do it with my mental and emotional health? And can I do it with my sense of purpose? So all I did was I took the strategies and the principles that worked inside the gym, applying them outside the gym, and boom, transformation. And it was, it was pretty cool. All right, yeah. And I love that we're gonna get into all that. And I want to just address one thing you mentioned there a lot of people talk about if they went a year, right, and they took a photo of themselves a year later, I imagine most people would say, okay, maybe I've gotten heavier, I've gotten bigger and I kind of know that I was doing stuff that maybe led to that right. And you had this maybe different perspective of thinking you were doing all the right things and then didn't change at all. And so before we get into the all the not in the gym, just real quickly in the gym. I'm just curious, what are the secrets that you discovered that that small changes that you made for that transformation? Well, the big one, the biggest mistake was staring me right in the face and

Carl Berryman 05:00

That for me, there's, in order to make any transformation that goes for in the gym and outside the gym, there's four key components that I found work for me. And it's measure, measure, manage, test and track. So what am I measuring? Like, specifically, what do I want to measure and I, I don't use weights, I imagine maybe during this conversation or if you would be so kind to come on my podcast, we're going to talk about the whole weight loss thing. I'm those are dirty words for me, but I get it. But anyway, so I don't focus on weight, I wanted to focus on putting on muscle and my the amount of definition which to me made sense to literally track the amount of pounds I had that were muscle, and the definition that I saw when I looked in the mirror. So I just started tracking that stuff on a weekly basis taking the glamour shot, so I could see if I was making changes. So that was as measuring and then managing was probably the most important part for me managing is all about, okay, I know what mistakes I'm gonna make in advance. I know the excuses I have for not going to the gym, I know the excuses I have for having pizza, instead of making a home cooked meal instead of going and stopping at the drive thru instead of waiting till I get home to have the food that I've spent hours prepping. And now I'm gonna have to throw out because I have no self discipline to not stop at the drive that I know those excuses. So how can I manage them in advance? And this is something you talked about in your episode number 30 With regards to moving into the intellect, part of forming habits, right? So that's what I did that was the most important part was figuring out what are the mistakes that I make the most often? And how can I make those mistakes hard to make? And that changed everything? So I Alright, love it, ya know, a couple of couple things you touched on too. I would like to get detail on those if we could. But like you said, we can do another podcast about like body composition and weight and stuff. But I'm curious when you say you measured the amount of muscle being gained. So to me if I did that, it would be either trying to estimate my lean mass based on body fat, or using something like circumference measurements combined with performance and maybe photos. I mean, what what of those did you actually use?

Carl Berryman 07:05

For muscle mass, specifically, I have a scale called the renforth scale. And that tracks all the stuff right. But what I did, the day before I got the Renfrow scale is I went somewhere here in Winnipeg called body measure. And I did a DEXA scan DEXA DEXA scan is the gold standard for knowing what's going on inside your body. So after I got my DEXA scan results, I compared those to the Renfrow to see how accurate was and they were pretty bang on like it was the difference was negligible. So therefore I just started using the Renfrow scale to track the amount of lean muscle and body fat and everything that I had. So yeah, cool. Yeah. In the way I say it is like even if the number, the absolute number is not precise for you, it's going to change predictably, like, you know if it goes up 3% or down 3% pretty much changed by that amount for you. That's exactly, yeah, that's Yeah, as long as you have that reference point. That's why whenever I had clients were like, should I use a scale at home? Or should I use the scale of the gym? I said, Oh, no care. Just use the same one. All the same one. Same condition. Same one. Yeah. All right. So in your I want to get into the morning muscle, I want to understand what this is all about. I did listen to your show. In the episode why most men fail, most men fail being the man. And this is for people listening to the inspired by the impact podcast that that you run that you have. You introduced the concept of the morning muscle up. So what is that? So

Carl Berryman 08:31

the morning muscle up has now been switched to the mental muscle

Philip Pape 08:34

because you can edit that out.

Carl Berryman 08:37

I say the morning because for me, I if I want to make sure I 100% get something done. It has to get done in the morning. Otherwise, willpower, which is an exhaustible resource runs out and then I find excuses and it doesn't get done. However, one of my best friends Jeff, who is a new father is son Nixon's like three months old. He's like, Carl, I barely get any sleep. I can't do this in the morning. Is it? Okay, if I do this when Nixon goes to bed at night? As long as I'm doing the things in the next 24 hours? And yeah, absolutely. It's like, then you should change it to the mental muscle up. I'm like, Alright, so I'll do that. Well, none of it makes sense. The mental muscle up really was what it is, is it's a cure for something that I was struggling with hardcore pretty much my entire adult life in that I've been a self help and personal development junkie for the last I'm 43. Now, since I was 19 years old. And I found that no matter how many books I read podcasts, I listened to courses, I took all that jazz. I wasn't seeing the change that I wanted to make. But then when I took a real look in the mirror, it's like Carl, you're consuming a lot of content, but you're not really doing anything with it. You're getting motivated and you're getting ideas but either a those ideas are never getting started or be you're never following through on some like okay, well how do I stop this? So what I did was a couple of years.

Carl Berryman 10:00

ago I started a journaling process where I would just ask myself for questions for questions like, say, if I'm listening to one year podcasts, and I did it. What's the fourth on Wednesday, I've got actually created my own journal magnate, the impact journal. And so the other day, I took something from your podcast and ran it through here, because I was inspired by something that was shared in your podcast, and I didn't not want to take action on. So I have what's in here called the notable, quotable. So it's usually just a quote that you get from a book or a podcast and you guys talked about the extinction protocol. And I loved that. I love that that resonated with me big time. I'm like, Okay, well, what can I do to implement this in the next 24 hours? So question, one inside of the mental muscle up is what your situation? In other words, you're defining the problem that you have. And you're phrasing in the form of a question so that at the end of this, you can come up with an answer to that question. And so really long story short on this one, what I came up with was, over the holidays, I told myself that I was going to not be so adherent to my nutrition plan.

Carl Berryman 11:07

And I went completely off the rails, completely off the rails. And it was, it's not awesome, and it's not who I know I am. And it's not who I want to be. And I made excuses. And I fell for those excuses. I told him, I rationalized it like crazy. And sure enough, two weeks a holidays, the next glamour shot does not look how I wanted to look. And I didn't want to let that happen, because I could have managed it better. So taking your extinction protocol into play. What I did was, rather than looking at the foods I wanted to extinct, I looked at the excuses that I wanted to extinct. And for me, it was social gatherings. That was my number one common error as to why I did like I deterred from or I diverted from how I normally eat. So now I've identified myself just like it gets in that podcast where he says, I'm just someone who doesn't eat chocolate, I am now someone who doesn't eat fast food, I just don't, because I'll cook whatever it is that I could get it to fast food, it'll be way healthier, and probably tastes better. So now I am somebody who doesn't eat fast food. And so that's what I got from your podcast, making sure that you take it just run it through this stuff, there's a couple more questions in there to get a little bit more detailed and a little bit more of your emotions out. But long story short, it's taking something that you hear that really resonates with you and making sure that you can take action on in the next 24 hours.

Philip Pape 12:29

That's great. Because there's so it's so fleeting, we think we think our minds are going to remember things right? You hear something that's just burst in your brain, you could be driving in the car, listen to podcast, and you just keep going right? You just keep going. And then like five more things come in, and that first thing is long gone. But then, but then at the same time, I think if I take the time to write this down, then I'm gonna have 1000 things that I wrote, is that is that going to help me either, you know? So how do you deal with that, like not not letting that be overwhelming and really picking and choosing the things that are most helpful to you?

Carl Berryman 13:03

That's a really good question. And so I'm all about taking analogies from the gym, right? So say, for example, this morning, I go in and I, I'm training with the clients, and I train with my clients now most of the time. Excuse me. And so I go in there, and I know what we're going to be doing for our workout. But imagine if I went in there, and it's like, oh, that piece of equipment is great. Oh, yeah, that one's great. Well, those kettlebells are great. Oh, yeah, that barbell is great. Oh, yeah, the the assault bike, and all that stuff. And I just start trying to design a workout based on that like, no, Carl, what muscle groups are you're focusing on today? And what type of style training are you going on? So there was two exercises? That was it. And we use kettlebells? For both? That was it super simple. So going into a podcast when I'm listening, what I used to do is I would take a screenshot of the time when something hits me. But I noticed in an hour long podcast, I would have about 45 screenshots. So what I'm telling myself now as I get my I'm allowed to come up with four. That's it. Four. So if ever I want to take a timestamp, I got to I got to think to myself, Okay, is this one worthy of the four? Or is it better than the previous one? Because now you're gonna have to erase something as soon as that gets a four. That's it? Because like you, I would have all these things written down. And it's like, no, why. It's just like Meals what like going to a restaurant where there's so many things on the menu, it makes it impossible to choose, the shorter the shorter the menu or the smaller it is, the easier it is to achieve. So same thing with those aha moments.

Philip Pape 14:33

Yeah, that's great advice for people listening. I mean, it's all about planning and managing this stuff. And you had it you had a question for how to do that now. Now I'm going to think twice about it too because I actually listen to a lot of my podcasts while working out and and I also ended up giving myself my 20 item to do lists while working out and there's a correlation there. You know what I mean? The because i The ideas come to my mind. Oh, this this is a great thing. This guy said or this reminds me I need do you do this or I need to do this in my business? And it's like, yeah, boom, boom, boom, boom. So what you're saying about kind of also going in with a plan of limiting how many things you're gonna come out with is helpful to avoid the overwhelm.

Carl Berryman 15:11

Yeah, the other one that's helped me as well, too. This one can backfire sometimes, but I heard one time in terms of writing a whole bunch of stuff done down the good stuff sticks. So when you hear something, it's like, oh, yeah, cuz there are some things where I'm like, that was massive. And then it's like, yeah, there's no way I'm gonna forget that. I'm just, I'm just not going to like it as much as I like I did snapshot when I was listening to your podcasts about the extinction protocol. But I'm like, I knew that there's no way I'm gonna forget that. I'm just Yeah,

Philip Pape 15:44

man, people listening to this. By the time we're done, I hope to have like, 30 things they want to take away. I'm gonna have to really. So just one. Yeah. Yeah. And up with just one. Yes, yes, yes. So let's keep going and produce some of these, these these massive hits for people. All right. I want to get into some of your unique things related to men specifically, and see where we take that right. So a little bit more sober here with the statistics, some of the Autistics you shared with me, that seem highly unique to men, one of those that enlighten me a bit is that men make up 80% of suicide, right? Yes. Why is that?

Carl Berryman 16:20

I can't say for anybody else. But I had one occasion where I seriously thought about it I. And it was it was it was very fleeting. And I didn't do anything crazy. Nothing manifested from it, thank God. But there was one moment where I seriously just thought that you know what, I wouldn't be better off not alive. That's how I thought back in 2020. And I think the reasons that it happened for me will be very, will be pretty universal among men. And it's because while there are multiple reasons, number one was I was hiding everything I was feeling like other than my partner, Jenny Lee, who even you she knew a little bit, but she didn't know that depth of the darkness. I was feeling anytime anybody asked me how I'm doing was, oh, yeah, I'm fine. I'm fine. And I wouldn't talk about it. And it's just, I would, the way that I numb, my pain is through binging on Netflix, like I'll just sit there. And just like, it wasn't all that long ago, this still comes up every once in a while where I was on the couch for like 14 and a half hours, the only time I got up was to get some food, take the dogs for a walk or go to the bathroom. And I'm just binging because I just did not want to deal with what was going on in my head. And inside of me. And you do that for enough time, it's no different. Think about looking at looking in the emotional mirror or stepping on the emotional scale. If you avoid, like I've got I'm sure you've had lots of clients to who when they know they've had a bad week or something like that they don't step on the scale, because they're afraid of what the numbers gonna say. Now imagine doing that for decades emotionally, how much things are going to build up without you realizing it and never looking in the mirror and not having any indicators for where your mental and emotional health is at. And that was me. And I didn't realize because after the fact that I realized the one thing that changed the game for me with regards to my mental emotional health was the connection I had with other men. Because I joined several men's coaching programs where vulnerability was the name of the game, where you hear men sharing things about their addictions, their relationships, their bodies, and everything like that. And you're realizing holy cow, maybe I'm not the only one out here that suffering like this. And if there's one thing that really learned, it's that we just don't want to feel like we're alone. Because you look on the surface, especially with social media the way it is, it seems like everybody is living a perfect life, when it couldn't be further from the truth. Like people, people might look at you and I people who are really into fitness and I don't know about you, but getting to the gym is still like it's tough for me. And like I know for I know for a fact that Yeah, after the workout, I'm gonna feel amazing. But there are a lot of times where it like I work out pretty early and I'm up at 405 is when my alarm goes off. And there's there's times where it's like no, I would love to sleep in right now. Especially in Winnipeg. It's freezing right now. It'd be nice, even. But I've got to get there. And it's nice to know that I'm not the only one who struggles with that. And once you start realizing that you're not the only one, and that other men are suffering the same way all the sudden some of that pain goes away. And my favorite one of my favorite quotes that I got from one of the coaches inside that program coach Sam filosofi, he said pain shared his pain divided and success share to success multiplied. So that's kind of the mantra behind everything I'm doing right now, hoping to expose myself as much as possible so that people can realize, holy cow. I'm not the only one who struggles with this. And not only that, but if there's some potential solutions that worked for Carl to get him to where he is. Maybe I can try those on and see if they fit for me they might but not but they but they might. So yeah, I don't know if I had

Philip Pape 20:04

to Yeah, no, no, it did, you gave me a lot to think about and thank you for, for sharing your, the personal struggle, you went through a few things like, again, Bursting My Brain, from you saying that when I think of talking to my men, male clients, right, so, so female clients seem to like really have the language down in general. Because this stuff, you know, and even better than I do, and I'm the coach, but my male clients, I do sometimes feel like, I'm the only person they've opened up to about some of this stuff and acting sort of as that support in their life. And just yesterday, I had a conversation with a client, we had, you know, very successful, long phase together, and he's ready to move on, because he's, he knows what he's doing. He's confident now he's gonna fire me, and that's how it goes. And it's okay, that's what I want. But he, he said, you know, part of why I was accountable, because it's because you got excited when I got excited. And you mentioned something about, like, our successes together as well. Every time you gave me feedback, and you're like, you know, look at your metabolism going. And I got excited. And then that kept me going. And I feel like some men maybe don't even have anybody else. There even their own spouses they may not share that with so yeah, that's that's, that's an interesting thought, Carl, so you mentioned techniques or things what what's something that comes to mind? For someone who doesn't have that right now?

Carl Berryman 21:21

Well, first and foremost, I just want to back up and talk a little bit about what you just said there because it's not to be skipped over. And it is, it is wonderful, because I mentioned how my connection with other men in my life is literally what saved my life. Having those connections, it's critical now where you go through those connections. And it's interesting, because a lot of the guys that I I'm very fortunate now where I have about five or six other men that I can have very, very vulnerable conversations with like conversations where when we leave, it's always I love you, brother. And it's like that. And my saying you have to open up and let the waterworks come out? No, absolutely. It's just like in the gym, where if you go in the gym, let's say if your man right now, and you're you're not even aware of what your emotions are, because you don't have any words for him. Because statistically speaking, women have a lot larger the language database for emotions than we do. So they therefore they can identify and express them better. But if you're going to the gym, you're not going to look at what somebody who is like been doing it for years do and put the same amount of weight on the bar, if you're doing dads, whatever and go in there and try to lift that weight, no, you're going to do something that is a nice small start for you. So where I recommend starting, if you want to learn how to express your emotions better with other people, the first person to start with is yourself. And that's what journaling has done for me so much like just getting just trying to get what's going on for me out onto paper, because then it's not occupying so much space up there. And in here, at least it's on paper. So I started there. And once my language started to get better, and I gained more confidence of expressing myself to myself, then I started sharing that with other men. And as soon as you start sharing with other men, the one thing I'm hearing more and more with every single man I'm connecting with now, mostly through like podcasts that had been on. As soon as the recording goes off, we'll have a conversation that way, Carl, I this is amazing, because I can't talk like this with other men. And really now that I think about it, that is the challenge. And the problem I am trying to solve with my podcast and with the journal is I want to bring men together into a space where that becomes the norm. And it's just like in the gym. Like one of the analogies I use in the gym all the time now is level 123123 Like one come in, take it nice and easy. There's nothing wrong with that. Maybe it's a bad day, maybe you have an injury, maybe you're just tired, I don't know, level two, dial it up and you can dial back when you need YOU GO GO GO GO GO and you're like, Okay, I overdid that step back form starting to go step back. Level three is like today is the day I'm feeling great. All cylinders are firing I'm going to give it so same thing with communicating between men. If you're the type of man who doesn't really know how to express your feelings yet just coming in watch coming in here, our the men are doing it. And then after that, dial it up, maybe you can connect with with one or two or whatever. And then finally start leading the group through your experience. So that would be the first things dialing that way back. Start getting stuff out on paper with yourself. Nobody else needs to read it. Nobody else will ever see it. You never need to read it again. Just see if you can start saying stuff on paper. And especially stuff you would never say to somebody's face. Like genuinely my partner she knows. I write some stuff down about her that if I said it out loud, we wouldn't be together. I write it down on paper because it needs to get out as soon as it's out. Not only that, but I can see how ridiculous it is. Now that resentment that was building up inside of me. It's on the paper. It's not going to come time when she comes home from work and I'm supposed to give her a hug and a kiss It's an Ask her how her day was where I have that thing lingering in my mind. And I'll just, she'll come home and be like, what's wrong with you? Because that used to happen. It used to happen, it's probably started doing this.

Philip Pape 25:10

That's a good one. I mean, it's really good because I was just thinking, my own relationship with my wife, which is, I think, very healthy. And she she does her best to get me to talk as much as I can. But I see that why golf? You know, because to me, she's like Deanna Troi, from Star Trek, she's like an empath. You know, everything is just there out in the open to her. And for me, it's like, you know, there's always that wall, right? It's just weird how the genetics work. I also saw, I don't know what it was that I was watching. Maybe six months ago, they were talking about how we men also tend to use humor as like a defensive mechanism. That's like the word romance. You know, it's kind of us saying like, it's not that important. It's just this, bro. You know what I mean? Like, we're like making light of it. Yeah. Yeah. Cool. All right. So another another statistic, which I man is related to this, and somehow is that 70% of divorces are initiated by women. So yes. Is that related to this? Would you say, the communication gap or something else? Absolutely. I

Carl Berryman 26:07

just think a lot of times women aren't getting what they signed up for in the marriage, right. And I think what happens there, I'm from my experience, because I was married and divorced. And then Jenny Lee, and I, my current partner, we separated for three months in 2020. And with the provision that we don't, we didn't know, if we were gonna get back together, we were pretty much sure it was done, but we weren't going to communicate for three months. And if at the end of three months, if we initiated a call. Sure, we'll check it out. Luckily, we're both working on some hardcore self development individually during that time. So when we got together, when we got back together, we're both, if you will, better versions of ourselves. But with regards to divorces, or relationships, ending, why it happened for me multiple times with all the people I've met before Jenny Lee, was because I treated it just like I would in the gym where things just plateaued. They plateau like I just, I stopped take, when you get to the gym, you're motivated, everything's going well, you're seeing results right away. And then as soon as you hit a plateau, something happens, and you just kind of stop doing the things that you need to do to get you to that next level. And that's what I would do. Like, I'd start making exceptions to things that used to be rules. So rules, for example, is Jenny Lee and I had a date night when we first started dating, we're coming up on nine years now. When we first started dating date night was a massive deal. Like I'd set up a playlist, I make sure I had the menu ready, I made sure I had the all the alcohol for the cocktails, I wanted to make a special wine and go at dinner like and it was all planned out. Fast forward three or four years date night is chilling out on the couch, not really talking to each other, just watching the movie and maybe having a couple laughs and all of a sudden, that's the bar that's like going from the gym, going from working out four or five days a week with really, really good intensity to just going to the gym, going to the gym and walking on the treadmill for 15 minutes. Like Like, what do you expect to happen to your body if you dial it down that much. And relationships are no different. So that's where I started taking some of the strategies from inside the gym outside the gym, where I want specifically was like, I know what styles of workouts I like in the gym, and what works for me and what keeps me consistent. I know what exercises I like, and I know what exercises hurt. So I stay away from those ones and which ones I don't like. So with Jenny Lee, I literally have a list of exercises that I've written down, that I can look at and be like, This is how she knows that I love her. So I'm going to make sure I am getting in my reps with these exercises every single week. And just like with my body, I started tracking it. I've got an app on my phone, I have to do X number of these per week in order for Jenny in order for me to have the best chances of making sure that Jenny Lee knows that I love her. So I hit those exercises every single week. And it's super small. It can be something like for example, Throwback Thursday. So what I'll do on Thursdays, is I go into my phone, and I scan through the camera rule. And I look for a picture from this month, four or five years ago, and then I'll send it to her with a little story. And that's something that I know she appreciates. So it's getting in those reps, getting in those reps, getting in those reps and making sure you're aware of whether or not you're plateauing in your relationship. So 70% of divorces, I would say and I said this in my last podcast is like death by 1000 cuts. It's never been it's rarely one thing. It's gonna be all those little things that all of a sudden you wake up one day, you leave some dirty dishes on the wrong side of the sink, your partner flips out and says you know what I'm out of here. It's like because there's dishes on the wrong side of the sink. No, because of the 1000 things that happened before that.

Philip Pape 29:52

Hey, this is Philip Pape. And if you feel like you've put in effort to improve your health and fitness but aren't getting results, I invite you to apply for a one on one coaching aim to make real progress and get the body you desire. We'll work together to figure out what's missing. So you can look better, perform better and feel better. Just go to wits & weights.com/coaching, to learn about my program and apply today. Now back to the episode. Yeah, and I imagine that the, your spouse is probably telling you this over the years to you're not necessarily listening. Because I just to give an example, with, you know, we all we're all on our phones all the time, and, and I'm on a lot these days, because because my business as well. And I know that when my wife talks to me, whenever I'm gonna, even if I'm in the middle of work, it's like she, you know, my brain has to say, she's talking to me stop, like, put it down and look at her and listen, you know what I mean? Like, just the simple things like that, you know, are gonna make her happy. But I really love all these ideas you have about reminders and planning it. Because, you know, I tell people that same way about nutrition, right? You got to plan out your day, plan out your food, you know, plan out the gym, so why wouldn't you do the same? You know, we plan out our work with our calendars. Yes, that's really good. Every guy you talked to on these podcasts probably comes out with similar like revelations, man, this is great stuff.

Carl Berryman 31:10

That's good. That's good. I'm really glad everybody's accepting it that way. Because like I said, this is just stuff that's worked for me. I don't know if it will work for anybody else. I've tried to make sure a lot of it is very principle based that way can kind of go across everything. And it's not unique to an individual. So I'm really, I'm very hopeful and confident that that will be the case once this gets a little bit more.

Philip Pape 31:33

So no, I want it. I want to get pictures from four years ago of you and your partner and send it to my wife. Isn't that what you want me to do that exact?

Carl Berryman 31:44

That would be hilarious. Yeah. Is this class?

Philip Pape 31:49

Alright, so I don't know, let's you want to go back into the fitness side for a bit. Let's do that. A little bit. Absolutely. Okay, so the fitness industry? Like what's your opinion on that? Right, what we taught one of the core principles of this podcast is the skepticism of the industry. I think it's right in a healthy skepticism, a healthy skepticism, right? Because there's there's misinformation there's even dangerous information, if you will, there's there's perverse incentives, of course, with supplementation, you know, companies and the influencers, and how the algorithms push things and all of that, a lot of that it'd be nice to just kind of ignore it. But then people I think, are overwhelmed and don't know where to go. And it's like, how do you what needs to change? What's bad with the fitness industry? What's good? What needs to change? In your opinion? Big question, right? This

Carl Berryman 32:38

is gonna be an eight hour podcast. The first man, where do I even begin? For me, my single biggest pet peeve is weight loss. my single biggest pet peeve is weight loss, or anything to do with weight. And here's why, like, I'm still I, I really hope that I can't imagine this will happen in my lifetime. But at some point in time, if I could look back and see that the term weight loss has never been used again, that would be phenomenal. I'll give you a perfect accent. I'll give you two really good examples as to why I've got a client who's 66 On Tuesday, actually, he's in Hawaii right now celebrating he's, he's, he's so amazing. I've had him for four or five years now. And he's, he's in incredible shape. Like, if he were to come to one of my group fitness training classes, he would own a lot of us. And he's like, six, five, like, he's not a small guy. And when we first sat down and got together, like, Okay, well, what what is your number one goal, and he listed a weight that he wanted to get down to? I'm like, Okay, there's bells going off in my head, because I don't want to hear that. But I understand that's important to him. I'm not going to tell him it shouldn't be. So I said, Okay, well, what are four facts that you believe are going to be true for you when you get there? So he said, Well, I want my visceral fat to go down for sure I want my body fat to go down. I want to be able to fit into this size suit, and I want injuries to be reduced. It's like, Okay, now we've got our measurables are tangible, measurables way before we got down to the weight that he wanted, or he thought he had to get down to in order to achieve those things, we achieve those things. So if that's the case, why are we not focusing on the facts that we expect to be real for us? So the other example is me. I typically was walking around, or Yeah, about 150 pounds. I'm like 5859, let's say that. And I was typically walking around at about 150 pounds. I always told myself ever since I was probably 25. That in order to look and feel and perform the way that I want to I need to be 165 pounds with a body fat percentage less than 865 pounds of body fat percentage last night. So I'm like, okay, my body fat percentage at the time was 15. I've got to get it down to eight and I've got to put on 15 pounds. That when I made the transformation in 2020 at the end of 2020, beginning of 2021 It was 63 days, and I went from 150 to 148 So actually lost two pounds. And I went from a body fat percentage of 15 to 12. So dropped 3%. And I looked felt in performing the way that I wanted to. So that number I had in my head was just so inaccurate, like insanely inaccurate. But the other thing that I would transform about the health and fitness industry is getting people to make the habits they want to adopt their goal. Like what like the behaviors, I want to measure my behaviors, the process, the end results of those behaviors? Because I don't know if you've read the book atomic habits. Clear? Yes, yeah, it's so good. And there's so many things in there, the analogy he makes is, if you're a basketball team, you know what your out outcome is, it's the championship, but are you going to spend the entire game looking up at the scoreboard? No, you're going to focus on the fundamentals that are going to get you to score those points, because then the win is inevitable. So same thing with the health and fitness industry, if we could somehow get people off of this number on the scale, and say, Okay, let's spend a little bit of time helping you figure out exactly what you want to look, feel and perform like. But now that we have that crystal clear, let's spend 90% of our time figuring out how we're going to make it as easy as possible for you to engage in the behaviors that are going to lead you to that outcome and just focus 100% on the system, like James Comey said, You do not rise to the level of your goals, you fall to the level of your system. Yeah, so focusing on the system is what we need to do. That's what happens process.

Philip Pape 36:25

So first, I'm gonna go through all my materials and make sure I don't have the term weight loss anywhere. No, no, no, no, it's funny, because I actually agree with you, I'll say I'll say 90%. Because, from my perspective, it's the term weight loss can mean different things. But I also prefer the term fat loss when we're talking about what people are trying to get to. And then I go beyond that, and say, well really want you to do is feel good, right? You want to look and feel good in your clothes. And you kind of keep going from there. Because where I am right now, I'm five, nine, like you. And I just finished a building phase. And I'm like, 187, and I'm just, you know, I'm feeling I'm feeling fluffy. Right? I'm like, feeling that way. Yeah. And and it's not my optimal feeling. But at the same time, I know, all my lifts went up. So I'm excited. And the process to get there was great. And I'm happy with it's like a little trade off. Right. Exactly. Yeah. So all that I totally agree. Because I think weight loss cells, right? I think we know that that the quick fix is what says, But Instagram and all these guys are gonna push the things that get clicks, you know, you're never gonna go away like that.

Carl Berryman 37:31

That's what I want to challenge you on? Because Okay, okay, perspective on this, because one thing that you talked about so much as body composition, yes, body composition, like if we can focus on body composition or body re composition. So for me, I think about using the term weight loss because it sells, but then I'm like, Ah, I feel like I'm lacking integrity if I do, right, because I want to get people away from that. And I know, it's like clickbait and everything like that. But it's got to start somewhere. It has to start somewhere. And with somebody, I'm like, I don't know. Ah, that's what I struggle with. So I'm really curious what your opinion is on that, in terms of the integrity with weight loss, or, you know, what, if that's somebody's language, great. And then maybe we can, hopefully influenced them to see that there's other alternatives they can focus on? I don't know, what's your opinion? Yeah, I

Philip Pape 38:24

actually don't use weight loss very often at all, I'm not even sure I'm not even sure you'd find it on my website, or most other places, to be honest. But I do know very high integrity coaches that use it, they'll use terms like sustainable weight loss, or something like that. And, and when you look at their system and their the approach, it's not that dissimilar, it's a very lifestyle based, you know, you don't even start dieting until you get all the other things up to where they need to be, you know, your movement, your training, and so on. And then it's more of the acknowledgement that most people are probably carrying either an unhealthy level of weight quote, unquote, weight that impacts their health, you know, like their the blood pressure, cholesterol, all that stuff. Or that, like you said, people don't realize that the weight they want to be at is this random number may not have anything to do with the weight they need to be at to feel the way they want to feel. Right, right. And I've had clients, usually women who really are focused on losing the weight and and I've sort of convinced them maybe, or gotten them to convince themselves to build muscle first, and get into a conversation of like, Hey, can we can we were you, you were an extra jacket. It's winter like, and not worry about the physique as much in the short term. And guess what, you're gonna feel really good. And then the whole mindset starts to change where it's like growth and adding to your body and including things and then yeah, and then we can go through a fat loss phase, that's like, you're now training really hard. We're going to hold on to muscle like you've never done before. When you've done weight loss, and we're just going to lose fat. It's gonna be a different, different experience. And you're not going to have to lose 20 pounds, you might only have to lose five or 10, right? Because you've got all this muscle so you have to I mean, Weight in terms of body mass has to come into play somewhere to measure. Yes, yeah, I agree shouldn't be an obsessive thing. Yeah,

Carl Berryman 40:07

I think you just hit on what would be I think it might be number three that I would 100% change about the health and fitness industry. And it's focusing on what you need to add as opposed to what you need to take away. So like adding muscle? Absolutely. So for me the way that I when I'm on my onpoint with nutrition, I use something an app called Dr. Greger Gregers daily doesn't you know who Dr. Greger is, I don't, but I should probably you wrote a book called How Not to Die, and then follow up with another book, how not to diet. And so he has an app called Dr. All that reminds me I showed it to my client this morning, I forgot to send it to her because she wants it for her dad. Anyways, I got to do that. In it. He has a list of he's a huge plant based advocate. So no meat, no dairy, nothing like that. And I'm the majority of plant based like I might have one or two meals a week that have some meat or dairy in it. Because I love pizza and burgers. But in the app, he has a list of all the things that you want to make sure you're getting in a day, and you can get 24 points out of it. So there's grains, there's berries, there's greens, cruciferous veg exercises on their waters on their nuts and seeds, herbs and spices, all those things. So I know for me that I have a baseline of what I absolutely minimum have to get out of 24. And it's 12. Ideally, I'm closer to 20 on a daily basis. So what happens is when I think about having the burger or the pizza, or the Boston Cream doughnut, which anybody who knows me knows is one of my vices. When I think about having that, I have to look at what I've had already first, because if I don't have like, if I'm not at like 17, or 18, or 20 on the list, guess what, I've got to get to that list first. So then I'll have a meal, that rep that has those points in it, those qualities and those ingredients. And now all of a sudden, guess what I don't want after I have that meal, because I'm focused on adding the good things as if you automatically add muscle, you will subtract that if you automatically add good nutrient dense foods into your life into your meal plan, you will automatically not have rooms or those non nutrient dense foods. So adding is a huge thing.

Philip Pape 42:26

Yeah, it crowds things out. That's like another way I like putting people out. I love that. And a simple way. It's it's similar approach to what you said, you know, now with the point system, but most people don't have enough protein in their diet. And if they start to focus on getting more protein, if you think about where you get protein in the world, unless you're buying a bunch of protein bars and whey shakes, it's pretty much whole foods like that's at either animal sources, or if you're plant based, there's plant sources to get your protein. And including way which ways is one of the exceptions, I like to make the processed foods because it really is just a high quality part of milk. But if you start saying well now I need the five times a day and I have to get enough protein it starts to crowd things out it just Yeah. Oh, now I need some either, you know, rice and oats and I need meat and eggs, dairy and all these things. Yeah. So it's a good philosophy to take anything.

Carl Berryman 43:19

Yeah, I absolutely love that the street you call it crowd you are crowded out

Philip Pape 43:23

crowds. You still have room for it. Like you said, you haven't gotten this in yet. And then once you get it in, I'm not gonna have that Coke, you know, or I'm not gonna have that other thing because there's no room for it.

Carl Berryman 43:32

Yeah, yeah, I'm just so you know, I'm 100% steel in that crowded pool.

Philip Pape 43:38

I'm still a whole bunch of things for this and good thing that's being recorded. All right, so what else? Let's see. So fitness. We talked about the fitness industry. What do you saw? We didn't talk too much about your training specifically, but what do you think it means to get in shape or get in the best shape of your life? You know, how does somebody do that? Okay,

Carl Berryman 43:57

so, for me, a couple years ago, I came up with this idea, or actually, I guess it was in 2017. When I joined the men's men's group, one of the guys on there, him and I he saw that I worked out and he lived in like the Ukraine or something like that. But he saw that I worked out. I saw him doing some pretty cool videos. So we got to be friends. And then he challenged me to a 500 burpee contest. And so yeah, he did 500 burpees. And I'm like, okay, whatever, I'll give it a go. And he did it. I think he did it in just under 45 minutes or something like that. And so I had no idea how long it was gonna take me. So I was actually visiting Jenny Lee's parents in Vancouver at the time. And so one day I decided whatever I'll I'll give it a go. So I went outside and I made sure I didn't have the clock on so I couldn't see the timer, and I made sure I had really good music going and it just took my time. I had no idea what it's going to be like, and sure enough, I I wanted to have a really good song for the last 50 are really good music for last 50. So I turned on my phone and the timer came on. And it was at like 43 and a half. I'm like, oh, no, I've got a minute and a half to do 50 which obviously isn't gonna happen, but I came close. So ever since then, I've had very specific workouts that I do on a monthly basis to assess where I'm at compared to where I used to be. So the one that I was doing last summer that worked out really, really good. Was the Murph, are you?

Philip Pape 45:34

Yeah. Which one is that? That's the mile and then to other

Carl Berryman 45:38

the, you run a mile you do 100 Pull Ups, 200 push ups, 300 squats run another week. And that was that was the bar for me to see if my time was improving. So when I was doing it, my time was improving. So now with my clients inside the gym to once a month for three consecutive months, we do the same workout. So then it involves strength and insult, volume, stamina, endurance, even mobility and flexibility. And we assess so are you better than the previous version of yourself. Because not only is that going to require a lot of consistency, both inside and outside the gym. I know you're huge on this, the mindset components is like a lot of people think that I was having a conversation with a buddy the other day, he's like, Oh, we all know that, like changing your body is 20% workouts 80% nutrition. I'm like you're missing a lot of components there. There's the mindset component, because if you don't think that your mindset and like influences how you eat, and how you work out, you're missing something. The prep work is something I follow. It's just an acronym, I had physical health and fitness, relationship health and fitness, emotional health and fitness and purpose health and fitness. If you think the quality of your relationship is not affecting the quality of the food that you put in your body, and the quality of the workouts that you have, and the quality of sleep that you have, like there's so many things in that pie chart that we neglect. But anyways, answering your question we have, and I have very specific workouts that we do once a month to make sure that we are making progress in the direction that we want to go. Whether that's lifting more weight, doing things in a shorter amount of time, going faster, being more mobile, whatever it is.

Philip Pape 47:18

Yeah, that makes sense, right? Because that's subjective. And it sort of, I guess if you reverse engineer it, I assume you don't just do it in a vacuum and say all right, the months in between do whatever you want and then we're going to test you have a plan to get there right now work on that specific skills there is it just you know that the Murph is a pretty is kind of a catch all so that, yeah, right.

Carl Berryman 47:40

It's a catch all in so many ways, because it, it's very mentally daunting. Like, especially the pull ups like 100 pull ups is, it's not easy. It's not easy, like 300 squats, it's bodyweight. I don't do the weighted vests like it's our original one is I don't do the weighted vest. Not yet. That's for sure. But 30 Like doing doing 300 squats bodyweight when you weigh 145 pounds is not that big a deal. So and push push ups to right. When you when you don't weigh that much. Isn't that big a deal. But the pull ups pull ups get? Yeah. Yeah.

Philip Pape 48:16

Even that much harder when you weigh more. Oh, yeah. Yeah, absolutely. That's one, one lift that goes way up. When I lose weight. Yeah. Pull up. You know, have you heard of the 40%? Rule? Danny? I think it's Danny Goggins the Navy SEAL. David God, David Goggins? There you go, David. Yes.

Carl Berryman 48:34

It until you said his name. David. No, yes, we're actually only when we think we're done. We're actually only at 40% of our capacity.

Philip Pape 48:42

I thought of that with your burpees. Because I'm like, if you did that next time, and got to 500. Are you only 40% done with your capacity? Could you do another AC

Carl Berryman 48:53

that 700. Now you've totally challenged me, because when I started doing the burpees, I would do them in sets of 25 or no sets 20. I do set to 20. And I just did how many of them went up to 500. And then I started doing the last time I did it. I started off in sets of 25 for the first 200. Then for the next 200. I went in sets of 50. So that's only for four sets. And then the final 100. I just did in one straight set. So that just goes to show you that sure my capacity has increased over time, but at the same time, was it really at 100%? And the answer is always going to be no i for me. I can't imagine ever getting to 100% I can't imagine there ever being a time where there wasn't a second that could have shaved

Philip Pape 49:41

off do one Yeah. Or you can do one more burpee and then one more burpee like indefinitely for days on end, right? Yeah,

Carl Berryman 49:46

but the 40% rule, huge because it's just like when you get to that point in the set where the burn starts to kick in. That's not when the set ends. That's when it started. Like everything else before Without is just foreplay. Now the set begins, like, what are you going to do from this point on, as long as your form doesn't give away, because that's my biggest pet peeve is just doing things for the sake of getting in the reps of the short amount of time without any consideration to what your form is like or why you're doing the exercise in the first place. So yeah, that next that's right up there with weight loss for me.

Philip Pape 50:20

And yeah, you remind me of my CrossFit days. I don't do much of that anymore. But yeah, I remember talking about that. Yeah, yeah, that especially what was it grace, doing grace for the cleaning jerks? So I know we're getting close on time. There's one thing a couple more things if you don't mind. Yeah, of course. There's you were talking about I think this was on one of your podcasts as well. about the importance of accountability for yourself, but also people around you I think you were talking about your your I don't know if you're talking to your actual brothers or your like, brother,

Carl Berryman 50:50

but I call Yeah, I call all my good all the good men that I consider to be in what I call my love nest, like the most important people. Yeah, like, I just, yeah, I refer to them as brothers. I

Philip Pape 51:01

know that makes a lot more sense to me since this conversation. No, no, no,

Carl Berryman 51:04

I've only got two real older brothers and right. That's it. So yeah, the the these guys are just, we refer to each other as brothers. So

Philip Pape 51:14

yeah, yeah. And you talked about kind of not the way I interpreted it like not being the No at all that's trying to teach them what to do. But you want to shoulder some you said shoulder some of the suffering of your loved ones. Yeah, and express your passion and love in a receptive and patient way to help them but without like, overstepping, so how do we put that into practice? Okay, so solving everybody's problems on the show? No, no, you're

Carl Berryman 51:38

asking just the absolute best questions like you're a fickle nominal host. This is this is so easy. Okay, so the other day, I'm having a conversation with one of my brothers, who lives down in the States. And we're talking about some relationship issues that, that we're having, well, that that he's having. And so we've given each other permission to be pretty blunt about some things. But at the same time, I have to realize that say, for example, inside the gym, one of the things that I've that I love doing is agility work, like I love doing plyometric style stuff. So say, for example, box jumps. And I like I can get up there pretty good with Box Jumps. But should I expect that anybody coming to workout with me, because I tell them how it's done should be able to do it. Like, that's insane. It's like some guy who can put four plates on the bar and do a deadlift, I can't do that. I've never been able to do that. So just because he tells me how he does it. Should that mean that I can do it? No, we all have different strengths and weaknesses. So when I have a conversation with him, and he's, and we're getting, we're going back and forth, it's like, Okay, here's what I found works for me when I've been in a similar position as you, I don't know if it's going to work for you, especially when it comes to relationship stuff. Because I tell guys all the time, I have, I have a serious handicap over other men when it comes to Jenny Lee, because Jenny Lee and I have a level of communication that is unlike anything I've ever experienced in my life, and based on what other men have told me is something like that they don't have but this is something that we cultivated over years, years, years, years, years, years, to the point where something as small as Jenny Lee and I will never ever, ever say, You made me feel this because now you are placing responsibility for your feelings onto the other individual. The language we use in language is so important. The language uses. You know what, when you did this or said this, it triggered this in me. Can we talk about this? So you're accepting responsibility? So the conversation I'm having with my brothers like, Okay, well, when your wife said this, well, how did you respond? And how did you take that? And not only that, this is the thing that I love. And I am so guilty of this, too. If we're complaining about something that our partner does, I said to him, Listen, is this the first time that she did? He's like, no, she does this all the time. Okay, if you were going home from the gym, pass the fast food, fast food joint. And you were stopping there because you said you learned it, and yet you're sabotaging results? Are you gonna keep driving that same route? Are you going to take a different route so that you don't pass that same troublespot? Like, okay, we'll take a different route. So why do you keep taking the same route with your wife? When it comes to communication, you're gonna have to figure out something different because guess what, you're never going to change her. You're never going to change her. You can influence something with your own behavior, but you have to work on what you can control. So can you control the way that you react and respond with your partner? Yes, so put 90% of your attention there and then tempers 10% of time you can you can be a jerk like I am but but you So that's, again, I don't even know if that's your question. No,

Philip Pape 55:04

you are and that and that's like the heart of stoicism and like personal responsibility even, I always come back to fitness analogies. You know, I tell people that we can't control what our bodies do. But we can control all the inputs and let our bodies react to those. Same thing, we can't control other people, we can control what we do. So you're right, if if the same things happening over and over again, then look to yourself perhaps and see if you can change. Always great advice. Are there any books you'd recommend for men who want to become better men? There's there's your workbook too. But you know, man

Carl Berryman 55:37

cave. So, again, a brilliant question. Honestly, and I'm not saying this just a plug it just when I've thought about what the legacy is that I want to leave behind, and anytime I have conversations with some of my brothers, and they just want some advice on something, or they want my opinion, the first thing I do is just say, You know what, just start journaling. You don't even have to get the journal like, I'll give you a link that people can get to download the free like blueprint for it. So you have the four questions, and you know how it works. But the reason why I say this is because this is getting you to come up with your own answers. It's not me telling you what to do. It's not, it's not any guru telling you what to do. It's not Phil telling you what to do. It's you taking something that they said, and coming up with your own answer, because nobody knows you, like you know you. So the more you know you the more knowledge you have about yourself. And the more you're putting that to action, the better it's going to be, which is what this is all about. But in terms of other books, first and foremost, the Way of the Superior Man, The Way of the Superior Man by David, I believe his name is, the last thing might be pronounced data or data, the chapters are super short, and they are filled with unbelievable wisdom. So the way the Superior Man would be number one, or a tie for number one, because the other one would be The War of Art. And that one is by Steven Pressfield. That one has to do with dealing with your own inner resistance. Because if you can get to know what resistance is inside of you, and relinquish that resistance, now all of a sudden, all the potential that was there is free to come out. So those would be those would be the top two, for sure. And then anything by Don Miguel Ruiz says he has the Four Agreements, which is good. The not the voice of knowledge is a huge one. And then the mastery of love. The mastery of love is a huge one too. And they're all the best thing about those books. They're super short. They're super short and super easy to digest.

Philip Pape 57:29

All right, love it. Yeah, that's an awesome list. Thank you for sharing, I'm gonna look into those man. And all those, I remember, include them in the show notes, you know how it is with show notes. You gotta get cram it all in there. But people have to listen to the podcast is to hear this. Alright, so this is the penultimate question I like to ask. And that is, what one question Did you wish I had asked? And what is your answer?

Carl Berryman 57:51

Oh, wow. See if I'm pausing. That's good, because it means that you've, you've asked so many amazing questions, I'm going to dial back and see if I can come up with something that has to do with men's emotional health and fitness. Actually, question that you would that I wish you would have asked? Here's one, and I don't know how I'm going to answer it. What is the thing that I personally struggle with the most that I wish I didn't struggle with? That I'm embarrassed that I struggle with? So for you to ask that question, that would be a ballsy question to ask me. But I'm going to put it out there. So the thing that I struggle with the most that I wish I did struggle with, then I'm embarrassed that I struggle with, um, man is, I don't know if you're gonna have to edit this out or not. But we'll record it. And then if you need to edit it out, go ahead and edit it out. But it actually has to do with the extinction protocol, because I did another mental muscle up because I really liked that. And I wanted to see where else I can use it. For me, when I feel my lowest when I'm really depressed. I turn to porn. And like, it's, it's actually I'm holding back tears right now, because I realize how much that's costing me like it definitely doesn't happen nearly as much as it used to because I have strategies in place to better manage my depression, but it still happens every once in a while and when it does, I'm there and I'm like Carla, like why are you doing this? You know what this is costing you like this is costing you so much mental and emotional energy. This is costing you connection with Jenny Lee, this is you are going to feel so much worse after this. Why are you doing this? And yet sometimes that voice inside me I just I still can't so that's another thing that I actually did a bit with the extinction protocol is that's another thing I'm getting rid of. I'm absolutely 100% Getting rid of porn in my life because I realize the standards it's setting With regards to intimacy and how just toxifying it is, and I know as a man, I am not alone there, I just know we're not talking about it. So that would be what I struggle with the most sentiment bears that I struggle with. That is still a work in progress, but has massively shifted in my life since I've recognized that, but at the same time, the next level up now is for it to be non existent. So I will be using the extinction protocol for that. And just, if you don't mind, I just really want to read what the extinction protocol is so that people know what I'm talking about. It's from Episode 30 of your episode. But the extinction protocol is the brain recognizing that is a craving you never, you never want to get into. And it stops the craving, we don't crave things that we that we're never going to have. So whether that's food, whether that's porn, whether it's whatever, those are things, I'm just never going to have fast food is never going to be it. And if you think about it, porn is really the fast food of emotional sedation. So that's what I would. That's a question that there's no way you would have ever asked.

Philip Pape 1:01:12

And I'm not, I won't edit that out if you don't want because I think men need to hear that. And I think, no, I just No, no, no, it's totally valid topic. We don't talk about it enough. And people can hear that. And it's probably going to resonate with a lot of men. And if it also makes me hold you accountable, knowing that it's out there, I don't know, for

Carl Berryman 1:01:32

you sit on now that you said that it's gonna be top of mind. And that's beautiful. I love that because that is the other reason I start actually, the one of the main reasons I became a personal trainer was because I needed that accountability like you. You can't, to me, yes, there are trainers out there who can't may not necessarily look the part, it doesn't mean that they don't have value to offer. I'm not saying that. I'm just saying given my own personal values, which are not better than anybody else's. I knew that if I really wanted to have integrity as a trainer, I need to look and act the parts. Yeah. And there's just, there's no better accountability than having to show up and teach a class and be able to do the things you're asking people to do. Yes. So who said that when this is out there? Okay. Hopefully the system I have in place works and we can extinct that extinct, extinguished that stuff forever. So

Philip Pape 1:02:27

well. And you were the episode you were referring to, I think was Dr. Glen Livingston, right? And He even talks about like we do we strive for perfection, you're not always going to get there. So even though you know, like, you put it out there, you're going to do it, you're going to put in your system. And what happens happens. And I'm not saying that you have leeway to fail on that to yourself, but you know, it may or may not, whatever, that's reality. Now you're going to you know, you're going to do your best and you're you're taking action to make it happen, which is cool. Yes, exactly. Yeah. Nice, man. Well, we're can listeners learn more about you and your work and maybe download the workbook you talked about at Ignite the impact

Carl Berryman 1:03:01

on Instagram, for sure. And then all shoot you a link for the download for the blueprint. Because starting the mental muscle up like after listening to this episode, there's so many things that were shared between us that I know are going to be revelations, but don't let them stop there. Like the mental muscle uptakes you can do it in like 10 minutes is how long it takes me in the mornings when I'm writing it out. And it's so simple to make sure that you're taking action on that. So that would be it. And then if there were one episode of inspired by impact I would recommend everybody listen to it'd be number 2424 kind of goes over the core four cornerstones on whether it's your body want to transform whether you're battling depression like I was, and still am, whether it's lack of intimacy and poor communication, your relationship, whether it's finding your sense of purpose and figuring out what it takes to be fulfilled. That episode gives you the foundation to tackle all of that. So episode number 24, for sure.

Philip Pape 1:04:00

All right at Ignite the impact the mental muscle up in Episode 24, I will definitely throw those in the show notes. So the listeners can find all this amazing material and hopefully they'll have to listen to this episode a couple of times and then it also good, Carl, this has been super unique conversation. I think this is pretty good chemistry. You know, I really enjoyed back and forth. And you've opened my eyes a lot you gave me a lot to think about and listeners as well. So I'm honored that you came on the show.

Carl Berryman 1:04:27

Thank you very much and feel for you man like since I've already taken done to muscle ups based on your episode like I always say like we're here to ignite the impact we wish to see in our world. And you're definitely igniting an impact in mine, especially with this episode. So thanks very much for having me, but

Philip Pape 1:04:45

I appreciate that. That's so great to hear. Love to hear. All right, take it easy, man. Thanks for listening to the show. Before you go, I have a quick favor to ask. If you enjoy the podcast, let me know by leaving a five star review in Apple podcasts. I'm telling others about the show. Thanks again for joining me Philip Pape in this episode of Wits & Weights. I'll see you next time and stay strong.

Philip Pape 2/14/23 Philip Pape 2/14/23

Ep 46: Optimal Health, Effective Programming, the Fitness Industry, and Olympic Lifting with Yosh Stoklosa

On today’s episode I am joined by Yosh Stoklosa, whom I’ve known for many years through our association with Romeo Athletics (in Enfield and Avon, Connecticut), him as a coach and trainer and myself as a long-time member.

We talked about coaching, the fitness industry, optimal health, and training, including programming and Olympic lifting.

Yosh is a Certified Sports Performance Coach and Personal Trainer at Romeo Athletics in Connecticut. Through his professional career as a Behavioral Counselor and Group Fitness Coach, Yosh learned about the importance of mental health and wellness, and now serves as a guide and mentor to others on their own fitness journey.

Topics discussed in this episode:

Yosh's background in fitness, coaching, and mental health
His approach to training, programming, and coaching others
Lessons as a Behavioral Counselor that apply to fitness / personal training
What optimal health looks like
The current state of the fitness industry
Who benefits the most from hiring a coach (is it everyone?)
Advice for someone who wants to go it alone to get started, be consistent, and find success in their training
Top 3 priorities/tips regarding training
How someone finds purpose (to stick with the plan / optimize their health)
Olympic lifting (why someone would learn, benefits, why you enjoy competing)

RELATED LINKS

Find Yosh on Instagram - @the_yo5h
Find Yosh at Romeo Athletics (in Enfield and Avon, Connecticut)
Watch the episode on video here

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Transcript

Philip Pape 00:08

Yosh Stoklosa 01:18

Philip, what's good, man? Yeah, I'm happy. I'm excited to be here.

Philip Pape 01:21

Yeah, so I've known you for years, we've chatted a lot. But we haven't really gotten into your background and your story and kind of who you are as a coach. So I think we're gonna explore that today. And people are going to learn a lot, and maybe some strategies along the way. So let's just start with your background and expertise where they intersect, right, which from my perspective, looks like fitness coaching and mental health, which is, I think, is an interesting angle that we can explore. So what's your story? What inspired you to guide and mentor others in the way that you do?

Yosh Stoklosa 01:50

So I had recently before I moved to Enfield to Romeo athletics, I had lived in Boston for over a decade. And my career really started there as a behavioral counselor at an organization called Bay Cove Academy. And I got a recommendation from a previous company I worked for in Berkshire County, called Hillcrest educational centers. So like, that was sort of the breadth of my joke, because I feel like if fitness and that weren't a thing, I'd be unemployable. Like, those are, those are really the only two things I've dabbled in. So I started at Big of Academy. And then somewhere down. Within my, I would say, my first year there having known Rome and what he does with his gym at the time, I had reached out to him and said like, Hey, man, I'd like to follow your programming. If you could coach me up, that'd be great. I didn't go into detail about why. But really, because the the job itself as a as a counselor is pretty heavy. We we treated some pretty, pretty hard youth from the greater Boston area with very severe learning and behavioral difficulties. So I mean ages, we would we be treating kids anywhere from 12 years old to 20 years old, because after that, they would age out of the program. They couldn't provide resources or funding for any, any child over the age of 20. So did that for, again, probably the same amount of time that I was training in coaching in the Boston area. So once I got in with Rome, started working out, I said, Oh, you know what, it'd probably be better. Now that things weren't what the program wasn't well, on that side, but as I continued to do the behavioral counseling, and that work, he had suggested that I go to CrossFit Fenway, which was maybe a mile and a half down from where I worked. So I joined that as my first affiliate and kind of did the training coaching and the therapeutic stuff like pretty much like right in line with each other.

Philip Pape 04:18

All right, cool. And so for those listening, when you say Rome, you're talking about Andrew Romeo. He's the CEO and head coach. Now just for people because people I have an international following here. Many people all over the world and maybe beyond listening, but for anybody in the Northeast or in Connecticut Romeo athletics, Andrew Romeo, it's named after him. So Yoshi is there in the Enfield facility and they have another facility opening up by the time this goes out. It might be open already in Avon. So anyway, that sounds pretty cool. How, you know, your background led you to another area that you're also passionate about and then you got this opportunity from Rome. And then so then you moved out here when in started coaching here,

Yosh Stoklosa 04:59

I'm moved out here in June of 2019. Okay. Yeah, I may was I gave my, it was funny because I had one of the great things about my previous employer, they would have weekly supervisions. And kind of like feedback loops, right? So, you know, her name was Carol, she walked in, I said, Hey, I have some something to tell you. And she goes, No, you're leaving. I'm giving you guys 30 days, I'm going to help train the next person who's going to fill my spot. But yeah, so I moved here. I had to, I had to settle up some things with where I was living in Southie at the time, and then had to get that beater of a car that I'm sure you saw when I first moved down here. So right around like the first week of June,

Philip Pape 05:49

okay, in 2019. So you'll you're left with class from your old job, that's the way to do it, you know, not burning bridges, helping to train the next folks. And then how you know, time dilation from COVID is crazy, because I feel like I've known you a lot longer than that. And it's, that's three years. Okay. So you got there, not even a year before everything got locked down.

Yosh Stoklosa 06:12

I know. So yeah, we Roman. Roman, I joke about that all the time, Kate do Rome's wife. Because, I mean, and people should know, too, that this wasn't just like a random email that he sent me said, Hey, come work for me. We, we had been, Rome has been my coach and my own, like pro he programmed for me. Probably the same amount of time that was in living in Boston. So probably, like a decade, if plus even. And, you know, we would dabble in that conversation. And he would tell me that there might be some work available. And again, I was just a, I was in Jesus, I was in my early 20s, at that point, when we had that first conversation, and I just wasn't ready to leave the city. So like this had been going on for a while, before I actually was able to move down here. So I had known like you and other members of the gym, and kind of the greater community there for a really long time.

Philip Pape 07:21

Cool. Yeah, and we, we saw each other a lot, because you were there in the morning. And I would go in, usually around seven. And for those who listen to the show, they know, they know I have a home gym. So that's usually what I workout these days, but still have a great relationship with you and the other coaches, they're roaming athletics, with with nutrition and with with everything with the website. So I will see you in the morning. And, you know, we chatted, but we didn't really go dive deep into you as a coach. So I want to get a little bit into the training and programming side of things. You know, what is your approach as a coach to training programming? Do you work with specific types of clients? Do you work with specific performance goals and so on?

Yosh Stoklosa 08:01

Sure. So I would say right now my current client load, they're more the general population. And by that, I mean, these are individuals who come in with no one like particular skill set they want to focus on. And truthfully, circling back to what you said about COVID. Like, the vast majority of people who I train right now have really kind of come off of the kind of like the onset of COVID, where they were forced to do nothing, and they realize how much their health was deteriorating in some in some, in some ways. So they just they needed what again, for their, like, mental health to get healthier and really as broad of a stroke that, you know, paints it's, it's been it's been cool to get to build a relationship based on like, the fact that all of us went through the same thing and now like, hey, the gym or the fitness industry is super vulnerable to begin with, like as someone new approaching like yourself, say like, hey, hey, Philip, I need some help with some some fitness or nutritious nutrition, excuse me, coaching. So, yeah, for the most part, they're all there. They don't have any specific skills that they want to focus on. They they're looking for the bigger picture and the great thing about what we do is we can do the fitness piece, and also have like a mentoring slash coaching side to it. So I don't just take my clients in, you know, it's just a workout and then see you Friday. We we talk about a lot during our sessions. We try and bounce ideas off of one another so that I know and that they're aware of that I'm still doing right by them. As far as what their goals are, and as far as how I train them, you know, I have very, very basic like principles like rooted in, like the strength and conditioning community. And again, like, it's kind of the, I know, like what the meat and potatoes of of a workout that I want them to do. And then no matter regardless of like, what their training goals are, so that's all the like, the larger lifts, the bigger movers like the squat and the deadlift. And again, this is, of course, to say that they all are having an appropriate amount of manner to like perform those movements safely. So there's that the, there's a hierarchy typically that I like to follow first, and like moving well, exploring where any limitations are, as far as like movement patterns are concerned, like we can add, then, you know, some add a little bit of intensity or a little bit of load to that, and then kind of increase the volume or the speed at that point. So it's really, again, if we didn't have those, that first conversation with them to begin with about like, hey, fill up, tell me more about yourself, like, what are you here for? What are your biggest limiting factors, concerns? And what kind of experience do you want to have with me?

Philip Pape 11:26

Cool. Yeah, I mean, that sounds what I'm hearing is it's highly individualized. But there are principles you follow, right? There's principles of strength and function in overall movement mechanics, right. But you have to take each person in and it makes sense, the general population is the majority of people, right? Like, I think most people going through, even on the nutrition side are not saying, Hey, I have a bodybuilding show that are a CrossFit competition. That's a tiny slice of the population. So it totally makes sense. You do that. And then, you know, for people watching or listening, you know, usually saying is you could you could get a template online that tells you like, here, the main lifts, and it's, it's going to take you a decent, it's going to take you pretty far as a beginner, if you're like totally healthy, you have no limitations, and you go for certainly at the time, but at some point, you're gonna probably hit a wall or get injured or something that someone like Yoast can come in and say, Hey, this is you, this is how you move this is you know, how we can work together. So I really liked that I see how you work with your clients all the time. And it looks like it's more than just, Hey, do these three sets, I'm here watching you. It's you know, let's chat. Let's figure it out. Let's and you're not you're not like wasting time. You know, I know some trainers just like chat to chat, but you're actually trying to get something out of it. Yeah, they're paying for it. Right? Yeah,

Yosh Stoklosa 12:43

exactly. Yeah, at the end of the day, at the end of the day, they have entrusted myself or one of the other coaches with, with that level of vulnerability, right. Like, it's hard enough to, it's hard enough to say like, I need help in, in anything. But especially with like nutrition coaching and fitness. So, we, you know, we really try and do as much as we can with that first. So it's not overlooked down the road, like a Alright, fill up like we're gonna, I'm going to put you on this like Brickhouse program, and we're going to, we're going to get you strong, fast, powerful that okay, that's well, I'm good. But you know, there's other things that like, I need to work on, it would help if, you know, not only if we, if you coach me through what we're doing exercise selection, pairing order, etc, like wise, like, that's fine. But tell me how, where this is going to carry me outside of the gym, and other relationships that I may have with people that have nothing to do with with exercise.

Philip Pape 13:53

Right? Right. It's not, it's not all about how much you can deadlift. Right. But can you walk up the stairs at the Patriots game or whatever your team is? Yeah. Cool. So you mentioned mental health and, and just health in general. So what what lessons have you learned as a behavioral counselor that you were talking about in Boston that apply to fitness and personal training, and then, you know, kind of what it means to be healthy? And that optimal health that you were talking about?

Yosh Stoklosa 14:20

You know, I think more there are enough people that know all like the physiological effects of how exercise like, you know, triggers hormones that make us like, feel happy and better. But I unless you have seen some, like seeing that change in someone or seeing that change in yourself. A lot of that is kind of new. You know what I mean? Like, oh, well, if I exercise for half an hour a day, doing aerobic anaerobic strength training workout, like I'll feel happier. Right. And I think, again, some of that gets overlooked because we number one, a lot of us don't have our own baseline to go off to begin with. So working at that, even again, like through that first year at the job, I noticed how much of that work I was taking with me like at the end back home into the weekend. And then at some point, it just felt like it was it everything just like bled into one another. And the first one, I was able to introduce the, the extra, more high intensity exercise into my thing I was doing it like three or four days a week. You know, a lot of that helped me understand that there are really healthy outlets. So go go and use them. See how they see how you fit them into your car, you fit them into your week, and then again, like that baseline now is week to week, I'm not taking all that I'm not taking work home with me, I'm not taking all that cathartic like nasty stuff into conversations with other people. So it was, I think when I first when I first kind of had the idea that like oh, like shit, this is this stuff is working. I just was able to start having better conversations with people at work and at the gym, again, like at work about what I do at the gym. And then vice versa, like that in the gym or in a class like telling people like what I do for work, I'm and prior to that it was just like, you know, like,

Philip Pape 16:38

I'm mad. I was abstract, it was just the

Yosh Stoklosa 16:40

shitty job, I don't feel good. Or like, Well, yeah, I don't have time to work out. So I don't know how to make it better.

Philip Pape 16:48

All right, so what are the missions of this podcast is acknowledging that we were skipped? pretty skeptical, the fitness industry, right? And we do everything possible to split out what works, the things that actually work from all the noise and nonsense and all those darn influencers on the internet? So what are your thoughts? What do you what are your thoughts on the industry, or overall the state of the fitness industry or anything around, you know, just kind of when you have clients coming in, and they ask you questions that you're like, they've been googling stuff again.

Yosh Stoklosa 17:21

I, I would like to think it's been good. I'd like to think it's getting better. But I also like, I'm not smart enough to know all the trajectories right now only like what is in front of us and like what we're what we're dealing with, I think, I think a huge issue has been the kind of the format that social media has played. And I, I see that at times as a as a vessel for people to just absorb information. And then you can, you can just regurgitate it back out at any speed to anybody. You don't need to care, like who it goes to who, who it affects to some degree, and then it just all settles to various communities or people that you know, are very, I guess, susceptible to this quick feed of information. Because as human beings, right, like we do a very poor job at like waiting, and hard work in the sense that like,

Philip Pape 18:38

if something truly want a quick fix, if something means a lot

Yosh Stoklosa 18:41

to me, I don't want to spend that much time to get there. So I that's always been a tough question for me to answer only because, you know, when you when you open up Facebook or you open up Instagram, there are a number of, of influencers, just pushing, like their own agenda. And I would say more than half of them are well, more than half of them have been able to dupe the general public into thinking that they care about a specific cause or they care about you. And then they're like side peddling supplements or, or, or meal or whatever, or, or workouts and, and I don't like listen, when I first started, I made the same mistakes again, like hundreds and 1000s of times. And it's just at this point like you said, like at this point in the fitness industry, like we you know, we both had enough skin in the game to to then have much more valuable and objective feedback to people like no person to sell you like a two week detox or like, strength program is really really cares about like, who you are. And then the longevity of your, of your goal. So I, I will say I've met a lot of super, super generous and kind, people who are also great coaches and also great mentors, and the fact that they're out there doing their things and their community does, it does provide, like, just a sense of relief, like, hey, you know, there are more people like us doing the right thing, they know how hard you have to work to provide and setting the example the way we know, can work over the course of, of years, or for the rest of your life. Right. And now, like kind of the uphill battle is still the the people who come in and are super reserved of your opinion, because they watched? I don't know, they watched a tic tock video on.

Philip Pape 20:57

Yeah, now you have to unravel that in some sort of rational way where they trust you. Yeah, you know, I like how you kind of spun that into a positive, right, because we don't definitely, I never want to talk bad about other coaches, I want to acknowledge the fact that you do have to be skeptical and aware of the content and where it's coming from. And you would hope that over time, the good coaches would start to take over and flood the internet effectively and drown out the bad actors. And as people get frustrated, and try these things, and blow a bunch of money on something doesn't work that eventually they're going to come around. But we know humans are humans, there's always gonna be some of that, right? So hey, this is Philip Pape. And if you feel like you've put in effort to improve your health and fitness, but aren't getting results, I invite you to apply for one on one coaching to make real progress and get the body you desire. We'll work together to figure out what's missing. So you can look better, perform better and feel better. Just go to wits & weights.com/coaching, to learn about my program and apply today. Now back to the episode. Cool. Yeah. And I just wanted to go off on that little tangent because you and I had also chatted about some of the technical aspects of how do we make videos and put captions on there. And like, we're trying to go out there on social media and put stuff out there. Just because it's one it's the way a lot of people connect today. Right? All right. So as coaches, right, we, we understand how valuable it is when someone finds a, a good coach that can work with them to get them progress quickly. And I know you said you know, it takes time. And it's to become sustainable, there's no quick fix, but you can still get there a lot faster oftentimes, by having a coach than trying things were yours on your own. So let's get into some of those specifics from your perspective, who would benefit from hiring a coach versus, hey, this person is perfectly fine going going on their own?

Yosh Stoklosa 22:54

I honestly think any anybody can can find value in in hiring another professional to Florida for whatever goal or for whatever reason. And I think in particular, it's because we again, as like, busy human beings, right? Like you have, I don't have you have a family. I don't myself, but again, like there are certain stressors that we would gladly let other people worry about and take care of for us. And again, like I'm happy to, I'm happy to pay for that service. So I think an example that comes to mind for me is, you know, I have typically like a very busy schedule most days of the week, right? And one of the things that I reach people who I reach out for, excuse me are like meal prep services, right? So looking for very, like standardized, credible places that like offer ready to go meals so like okay, I'm gonna pay for a box to get it I bring him in to work with me if I have like, a half an hour between clients. I'm good to go. So that I that I think to dance your question there, if you are, if you are struck, everybody struggles, whether we've done this for 10 years, 50 years, whether you're coming off the couch into the gym, or again, like someone like myself, just getting back into an Olympic weightlifting program, right like you will always find you will always find a way to put stress on yourself because you think you that you can just take it all in. You can be that like you're that alone, gunslinger type that you can handle it all. And at some point, you're going to hit a wall and you won't be able to do it anymore. And I think at that point, you either fall into one of two camps, like I have to set healthier boundaries for myself and prioritize things that maybe I don't need to rush to do all the time. Or like, like you said, ask for help, like hire a coach, like buy a program from a coach. Because that being able to sustain the, the part of ourselves where we feel the need to just carry it on for length of time is incredibly stressful. And I've done it myself and it gets so like, just physically draining that I do believe at some point, no matter who you are, you can find an area of your life where you can at the very least reach out for reach out for some guidance.

Philip Pape 25:37

Yeah, yeah, I like the way you put that because and it may not it may not even be in a coach, right? It may be somebody you know, maybe a friend, a may, it may be a one time thing, right? I know, I had to work on my squat years ago, and I went to a specific coach specific to that type of squat. One time and it like it was as if I had worked on it for two years and at one hour, because the coach was so valuable, and knew so much more than I did. And what you're saying is we have way too much to do in our life, to be able to take everything on. And we can only rely on willpower, motivation, discipline, consistency, accountability to ourselves without anybody else, we can only do that for so long. And that's where a coach can be valuable. Now people listening to this podcast are like, wait a minute, Phillips been telling me how to do everything. Now for 35 episodes, he's got these great guests on like, Josh, and I want to do it on my own anyway, I don't want to hire a coach just yet. I do want to get into training. So let's just let's just play devil's advocate for a second. And what are the top priorities then for someone who wants to get started wants to be consistent, find success? And then of course, at some point, they are going to need an entire coach, right? But if they want to get started on their own, what, what should they be doing?

Yosh Stoklosa 26:51

And this is gonna sound against the grain, I guess. But first, you have to identify a problem, right? And I mean, it has to be something that's super palpable, right, that has, unfortunately, brought you some, some grief in some area of your life. So I think you identify a problem first, right? You, you have, you have to open up a bit and kind of make suggestions to yourself in way in areas that it's deeply affected you and daily, daily habits, relationships, conversations, etc. I also think that if you're doing it, if you're serious about it, and you the goal is to ask for help, you need to ask other people for feedback on on yourself. And that and that's something that I've, I've learned even just recently through the the leadership academies that I've had the opportunity and pleasure to go to up in, in Manhattan, and one of the things that is commonly called next jump, and one of the things that they drive is that we you know, as, as individuals, it is almost impossible for you or for us to, to see our own blind spots. And Parsh part of the reason that it's so difficult for people to ask to help is because they don't know what they need help with. And so if we identify a problem, if we're asking for help or feedback from other people, right, then we can go into the area of to explore, like, where how often, we can make that happen nutrition, fitness, exercise, like mental health, anything like education, any part of that infrastructure. And then throughout that process, using us as an example, like, we, we reach out, or you would reach out to us sit down with myself and one of the other coaches and say like, Hey, you know, this is really what I've been struggling with for several months or several years. And now I'm at the point where I know I can't mitigate it myself and I need I need other resources, I need your help I need this is what I've been struggling with. And that's again, like going back to what we were talking about, originally about how you you know why why is it important to build a relation relationships with people understand, like what will need long term down the road? And this is a big reason. Because when they come to ask for help, you just don't want to say like, well, Philip, I'm gonna teach you how to squat and you know, Booth like, You're fit. And so and, and I'm not going to I'm not suggesting to anyone that you know, these conversations are easier that every person that I have the ability to meet with like, at all of a sudden like all the layers get peeled back like that's probably that's not the case at all. So yeah to do and then like that's where again now input like, like someone like yourself Are myself. Now we have to do right by them by asking the right question,

Philip Pape 30:07

man, you just, you just covered something, this is like gold. And I want the listener to be aware of what you just said. Because I asked you about where they would get started with, with training and you made it about mindset and you made it about like your true lie, your true goal, your true gap in in from where you are now to where you want to be. And you know, what I get from that is we all we're all struggling in something, right? And let's say it's fat loss. So from a nutrition side, I've got tons of clients come in and say, Okay, I want to lose weight. Is that really the problem? Right? Is the problem that you want to lose weight? Because I bet you've done things many times over the years that caused you to lose weight successfully. Short term, right? Is that the problem? And we have to dig in and say no, it usually comes down to the mindset of notes that you want to feel a certain way that you want to be able to play with your kids, you want to be able to do the things you do and then you kind of back back into that. Okay, what does that mean? Was that mean? Was it mean, at the end solution may be you need to get stronger and not even worry about the scale? I don't know. I mean, it depends on the person. But that's awesome. Yes. Like what you just talked about?

Yosh Stoklosa 31:15

It's again, like, it's through a lot of trial and error. And you made a really good point too, because I even like, I mean, I've over the past that, you know, been on the scale, like gone the InBody, you know, looked at myself in the mirror and been like, I should like probably lose some weight too. But, you know, why do I want to lose weight or gain weight? Like, what am I trying to objectify there? And again, like, I What, for me, that really turns into what my habits are like. And if I have shitty habits, I'll just automatically explore like, well, I need to lose some weight. And but my, but my habits won't disappear. So like I I told I 100% agree there that it's, it's a lot more than just write like that service layer strategy that you might have. Because it's not always going to be it's not always going to be that easy.

Philip Pape 32:18

Yeah. Yeah. So that's great advice for folks listening, you know, really ponder that and ask yourself, not only what my goal is that maybe that's the first step like what my goal is, but then ask yourself why that's my goal. And maybe that'll lead to the real goal, the real short term process transformation that you need to go through. Okay, so let's, let's talk about some kind of fun stuff here. In terms of the lifting side, you're an Olympic lifter, I haven't really gotten into that on the show at all, because I'm more focused on traditional lifts when I do talk about it. And I have a love hate relationship with lifting from my, from my history, because I learned about it through CrossFit, which, you know, pros and cons of that. And I remember you getting me to push myself on Grace, like so people listening grace is one of the words in CrossFit where you do 30 clean and jerks for 135 Now, today, that probably wouldn't feel so hard. But at the time, it wasn't as strong and you're like, you got this man, you got the the RX and you know, I could do it. It wasn't like I was going to injure myself. And I got it done. But tell me why somebody would want to learn the Olympic lifts the clean and jerk the snatch why they're valuable as part of somebody's programming.

Yosh Stoklosa 33:32

So I would I mean, I think, obviously, like if you want to, if you want to compete in the sport of Olympic weightlifting, like yes, of course, like, you are going to have to learn the snatch, you're going to have to learn the clean and jerk outside of that, honestly, I mean, there is a layer of this where, you know, you see it looks cool, like and you learn it, and there's fun, like it is a really, really fun, they're fun exercises to learn, develop, develop an awareness for and then ultimately you get better at, you know, whether it's a snatch or a clean, things are so precise and get so technical, that when you even make when you succeed, a lift by a pound by two pounds by five pounds, even like that is taken a lot of freakin work to do. So I would I would say to some degree, people that if you're going to try something a little more challenging than your current trajectory offers, you know, one, it'll, it'll show you right off the bat how much discipline you have. Because the workouts that don't go as planned, the weeks that don't go as planned. Well, we'll see if you come back the next day and pick up train where you left off.

Philip Pape 34:54

All right, so it's a mental game for sure. It's a skill. It's mental. Yeah.

Yosh Stoklosa 35:01

On the I guess on the more objective side of things to like, they're great. I do believe that they're great exercises for certain athletes to, to learn, maybe not. And by that I mean, take a I only say this because I was watching a video on Instagram today an Olympic thrower, like like those guys are the most powerful athletes in the world on one of the variations of the Olympic lifts that they use as the hang power, snatch, hang power clean, because it'll start just by placing like little stars above the knee, you have very minimal length or distance of movement, but you have to be super explosive. And these are guys that are putting up several 100 pounds. And I mean, again, it's it's humbling for someone like myself to see who's been training them for like 10 years, and seeing like these college athletes come in and just do something. So again, in my eyes, so incredible from such a difficult position. So that's like being a more than being an athlete itself in certain sports. I think they're appropriate not not not all sports, like do I think that any that if you're a elite caliber or professional athlete, you could benefit from the use of them? 100%? Do I think that they're necessarily appropriate for every like program you might be following? Not not in every case like that, you know, you walk a very fine line there. But I guess to answer your question, it is always cool to take somebody out of say, like just doing CrossFit. And say and suggesting to them, Hey, how do you feel about like getting really, really strong over the next like three months? And yeah, of course, I wouldn't, I wouldn't do that. Cool, you're gonna stop doing all the shit that makes you hurt in line you're back after. And I'm gonna, I'm gonna teach you something a little more fun. And at the end of that, I'm going to put you in an actual competition to see how you do. So I guess like someone who is open enough to try something different to help their performance in said, area already. Like it's going to be it will be a lot of fun. And you're going to learn a lot about your, your level of tenacity as an as an athlete or as an individual.

Philip Pape 37:27

Yeah, that's a good way to put it. That would be me with a snatch constantly back in the day not wanting to do the snatch, shoulders, man. But it's funny because there's, I've always had interesting opinions on that over over the years, too, because the Olympic Lifts are kind of how I got into using barbells through CrossFit. It wasn't till years later that I just focused on pure, you know, strength movements, just to build strength. But there are some programs, I think, like starting strength, for example, that incorporate the power clean, early on, as the deadlift gets really heavy as an alternate pole movement in between just so you're not deadlifting, like every session. And yet, even though I've seen arguments about that, it's like, you still can only lift so much during a power clean. So why would you do other poles or rows or something like that? But

Yosh Stoklosa 38:18

yeah, I would say that I agree. That was tough for me too. Because if I'm, if I'm looking at that, and someone saying like, Hey, if you're stalling on your deadlift, do, do a power clean, do whatever, like number one? I don't? Again, in my opinion, I don't think that that truly necessary. I don't I'm not like what kind of adaptation? Am I going to get through that? That being said, if you asked me like, hey, is there a variation of a lip, that could help the performance of my deadlift? And I would teach someone how to do a poll, like just a basic clean full, either from risers or from like a rat, or having the injured individual put straps on and go from some position above the knee, right? For sure. Yeah, like that. And you've done before like we overload rack pulls that there are many reasons to do rack poles, but one of the, one of the larger benefits of a rack pole is to break past that sticking point of a either of a conventional deadlift, right when you're getting it towards your knee and people might look like they buy a taser. But again, like that, I think what you're what we're both saying really is, it's a very, you're going to have to know that athlete or that individual so well number one, to even suggest that number two, then if they're able, even able to perform it well enough to get the adaptation or benefit from that to then provide them a bigger deadlift. And but that's where like good coaching comes in. Right? Like a good a good coach is going to look at that and say, you know, I felt like yeah, you don't need a power clean one because your shoulders and your wrist can't take it but I can teach how to pull. Like you definitely have enough power like your back strong enough your your, your, your legs are strong enough to handle that kind of position. So we're just going to shave some weight off the star and we're going to teach you how to like produce some some speed tools. So it just that that to me definitely comes down to the the level headedness of, of a coach to even put that in their athletes program.

Philip Pape 40:28

Cool. Yeah, all good stuff. I mean people listening, they wonder about that. And I know folks that do and Olympic lifts mainly for the fun of it, and the skill of it and the athleticism side of it, which seems to be the dominant driver, especially if you want to compete. So pretty cool. Pretty cool stuff, man. Thanks for we haven't covered that on the show yet. So I'm glad we covered a little bit, you know. Now, last thing or one of the last things a little birdie told me that you're a foodie. But your favorite beer is Bud Light. Now, I think you're in good company. I think you're in good company on the food side with me. Okay, my wife could tell you, my wife makes most of our dinners these days, and they're delicious. But she's not a foodie. She just she she finds a good recipe throws it together, serves it to me. And I'm like commenting on the mouthfeel and the texture and the seasonings I taste and like all this stuff such a snob. So but is it true that you're a foodie and your favorite beer is not some barrel aged Imperial Stout, but it really is Bud Light.

Yosh Stoklosa 41:25

Yeah. 100% I am a foodie. And again, I think this lert like, enjoying food has come off of like a part of being in the fitness industry and and that most people that probably seems obvious because like if you're going to do the provide like your yourself with physicality, like the like the, the, the workouts and the training that you're going to do, like, Hey, why wouldn't they pair that with eating right? Like, I like to say that every every fitness. I'd like to say that every fitness professional does that. But I don't know, like, so the food piece came from wine teaching, I've taught myself how to do the Olympic lifts, I want to teach myself how to, to cook, I want to I just it's more of a point of creativity. And then when I learned when I learned how to cook, and I'm not like, my, I don't have this huge continuum of what I'm good at, like in the kitchen, but like, I want to be able to do that for myself. I feel like that is a necessary task. I get that, that all of us should at least try. Yeah, the foodie piece like is and now like knowing how to do that it has given me such a more just every time on restaurants or, or people suggesting that like, hey, like I know you enjoy like making this you should try it from here. It makes it like, I guess the whole experience much more enjoyable. Overall.

Philip Pape 43:03

Yeah, again, yeah, gastronomy or whatever it's called. I'll write with you, man. I mean, I mean, there's there's a dark side of foodie ism in that, you know, you eat out all the time because you love food so much. But the positive side, like you said, is you learn to cook your own stuff, and you really get creative. Now you can now food can serve you you know, it's not like you're just shoveling it in for the calories. You know, you're actually trying to make it an experience as part of life. And hey, we're human. So just make it work with your macros and with your goals. And you're good to go. Right? Yeah, I

Yosh Stoklosa 43:33

think everyone should learn how to cook for themselves for sure.

Philip Pape 43:36

Yeah, yeah, definitely. And eating at home is a good way to stick to your plan, too. All right, so the the second, the last question I like to ask all guests is what one question Did you wish I had asked, and what is your answer?

Yosh Stoklosa 43:49

Oh, geez. I admit I don't what, um, I guess. Okay, what are Do I have any personal

Philip Pape 44:01

personal training goals

Yosh Stoklosa 44:03

or training goals? Yeah. And I guess I guess I don't at the moment, I would, people may think that it would be to train for, like a weightlifting competition. And I, I guess I have, I'm trying to get better at just enjoying the train for the sake of being able to train and getting stronger and healthier, versus always needing a spot to prove what I'm doing. Right. So if I'm trained in the sport of Olympic weightlifting, yes, most people will find a meet to do and compete and I and I wholeheartedly agree with that. I think if you're doing that sport that has that result or outcome to it, like 100% You should challenge yourself and do that. But I right now, I just, I guess I don't have that goal in mind yet, and I'm learning how to literally just do it for the sake Get having fun lifting.

Philip Pape 45:03

That's a great, that's a great one. Man. That's a great one. Because, yeah, I know I throw you for a loop and you're like, you came up with a question. And then you realize the answer is you don't have a goal. But that was the money answer. Because some people need to learn to just just, like, suck it up and enjoy the process. I don't mean suck it up. I mean, enjoy the process, like live every day, each step along the way. It's not six months from now, every time Yeah. And I

Yosh Stoklosa 45:29

think this comes with this just comes with experiences that like, damn near all of us do not have the ability to just focus on that part of our health and wellness, like just the training, I see the other the other. If I'm booked morning to evening, and I don't get to work out how am I gonna react to that, right, like, at some point, outside of the chance that you can become a professional at it, or not a professional but like, be paid to do it. You're gonna have to prioritize other things like family, your your work. And I'm, I think over the last couple years, I've done a lot better at saying like, you know what, the business that I'm helping to run right now takes precedence over my training. And that doesn't mean that I never trained, it just means I'm not going to. I'm not going to like, set intentional blocks out in the afternoon for myself just so I can work out like I leave them. I want to fill them with as many people as I can. And then what I do every Thursday or Friday is go look into the next week and see like what can I do have available and then I will put kind of strategize and move my train around that and in most cases, I'm I get a good a good enough block of time every day to at least do something I've started doing 2025 minutes of like aerobic work now like in so at the very least, if I can do that, it's a good day.

Philip Pape 47:03

Cool. Yeah, you got priorities, and you're still making it work. So you're awesome, man. Well, this has been a fun talk. I'm gonna Oh, the last the last question of course is where where can people learn about you?

Yosh Stoklosa 47:15

Yeah, so number one, if you are in the if you're a Connecticut based in your in the Enfield, Enfield summers Ellington Suffield even if you're over in Springfield Agawam like if you're in the surrounding area, myself and my other colleagues are located at Romeo athletics at seven moody road. Again in Enfield Connecticut, I do have a Facebook page that I don't really put much on. And it's really just my name you just Yoshi and my Instagram page where I put most of my clients training in my training on and my handle there is at the underscore, y o and then five in place of the F and H

Philip Pape 48:01

Yes, perfectly easy to remember. Yes No, just kidding I'll put it in the show notes. So we got Romeo athletics we got Romeo athletics which has a website rolling athletics dot fitness for people just if you want to find address that you mentioned, Facebook Yoshi, and then Instagram at the Yogesh where the SS of five minutes an underscore I'm gonna put it in the show notes so you don't have to remember that. And man it was great talking to you talking about all this stuff. Appreciate you joining me and of course I'll be roaming athletics. Alright, man. Oh, yeah, man. Thanks, dude. Thanks for listening to the show. Before you go, I have a quick favor to ask. If you enjoy the podcast, let me know by leaving a five star review in Apple podcasts and telling others about the show. Thanks again for joining me Philip Pape in this episode of Wits & Weights. I'll see you next time and stay strong.

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