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Philip Pape 2/10/23 Philip Pape 2/10/23

Ep 45: Q&A - Strength for Women 40+, Safe Lifting, 3 vs. 4 Day Splits, Workout Nutrition

This is the first Q&A episode ever for Wits & Weights!

I'm covering four training-related questions from followers of our Facebook group (Wits & Weights) and plan to do more episodes like this to answer your questions there and on Instagram (follow me at @witsandweights), with a shoutout to you (if you want)!

And if you like this Q&A type of episode, let me know and I'll do more of them to release on Fridays between my other episodes. Just email me (philip@witsandweights.com) or direct message me on Instagram.

Here are the questions for today:

What would a solid strength training protocol for women over 40 look like?
Another woman over 40 here. I have been lifting with progressive overload for a year and I have not been able to progress as much as I would like. It’s not that I don’t want to go heavier; I just don’t feel safe in doing one rep, let alone 4-6. What are my options?
Does research show a difference between a 3-day full-body strength training schedule vs. breaking it up into a 4- or 5-day split such as Push/Core, Pull/Calves, Legs/Core, Full Body?
What are your recommended pre- and post-workout nutrition strategies?

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At Wits & Weights, we help you achieve optimal health that fits your lifestyle—without excessive dieting, cardio, or food restrictions. Philip Pape, host and certified nutrition coach, helps high-achieving people use their wits to build their body, reclaim their time, and gain control over food through one-on-one nutrition and lifestyle coaching.

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Transcript

Philip Pape 00:08

Philip Pape 00:31

Welcome to another episode of Wits & Weights. This is the first ever q&a episode for the show. And if you find it helpful, the best thing you could do for me is to let others know and submit a rating and review on Apple or Spotify. So people can more easily find it. That's the way to do it. Spread the word spread the love, I really appreciate it. And I'm grateful for that. If you don't know me, my name is Philip Pape. And I help high achievers use their wits to build their best body reclaim their time and become their most capable, confident selves in the gym, and in life, so they can show up and make an impact. Today I'm answering for training related questions from followers of our Facebook group, and plan to answer more in the future from that group as well as on Instagram. You can find the group linked in the show notes or just search for Wits & Weights, and you can find me on IG at Wits & Weights. Alright, let's jump into today's four questions. Question. One is from Christina M. She asks, What would a solid strength training protocol for women over 40 look like? Alright, I'm going to spend the most time on this question today. And then the remaining questions are also training related. What I want to start with is just the basic principles of strength training that apply to everyone. And then add on the considerations for women over 40. So the most important thing about training is that you get the right balance of intensity, volume and frequency. So intensity, what we mean by that is the weight on the bar, the load on the bar, not how much your you know, heart rate is going and how hard the workout feels. But really the weight on the bar, we also want to have progressive overload. And that is simply increasing your volume over time, usually in the form of increasing your weight on the bar over time or your intensity. But you could of course, increase it through other means, such as volume, and sets and reps. The next thing which is critical, so critical is good form. I've seen people jump into a training program and start to progressively overload, but they're using poor form. And on one hand, it leads to a chance of injury. But on the other hand, it also prevents you from properly and efficiently lifting the weight, and then actually getting the benefits of progressive overload. And before long, you're at too heavy of a weight. It doesn't feel safe, it doesn't feel effective, because you never dialed in form from the beginning. And then finally, I'm just going to mention this right up front. If you are unsure about a lot of this, even if you go the DIY method, and you've done everything you can to read and listen and watch videos, and you're still uncomfortable with it. Please get a coach get a trainer. Okay, not just me. I'm not even a personal trainer. I'm a nutrition coach. But I provide oversight and form checks and I refer people to trainers, but just find any trainer you can who seems to know what they're talking about when it comes to the big movements like squats and deadlifts. So that's that's the basics. Now, what is our goal? Our goal when we strength train, at least for me and my clients is strength, first and foremost, as a beginner, and size. So building muscle. And for women, this may be expressed in terms of getting lean getting tone, you're definitely not going to get bulky. I think we know that we've put that myth to bed a while ago. building muscles the only way to improve your body composition and get lean we know that and if you want to hear me go on and on about that check out some of my other more recent episodes. But if our goal is strength and size, we basically need to apply a few principles to our muscles when we're working out and then pick our program and protocol accordingly. The first is mechanical tension. So simply the load that we place on our muscles from lifting heavy weights, is going to put tension on the muscle to stimulate it to grow. Somewhat related to that is activating the most amount of muscle fibers as possible. The more muscle fibers we activate not only muscle groups, but actually the different size fibers within a single muscle. Muscle belly we call it is going to maximize your growth Okay, and we get that from big movements generally Big full body movements or compound movement.

Philip Pape 05:01

the next principle is progressive overload, which I already mentioned before. But now we understand the reason we use progressive overload is to increase that mechanical tension over time. Because every time you do that, you then stress the muscles, you take the time to recover, and then your muscles adapt, and now you're able to lift a heavier weight. And so you don't want to keep lifting the same weight because that will not further stress your muscles and they just won't grow anymore. You've probably heard like muscles grow, when you're recovering or muscles grow while you're asleep, they don't grow in the gym, that's where that comes from.

Philip Pape 05:35

Okay, as far as movements to accomplish this, we can simplify it into three general categories, pushing, pulling, and squatting. So for pushing, we have the benchpress and the overhead press. So bench presses laying flat on your back, and pressing and then the overhead press is standing. The pulling movements would be deadlift, and rows. So the deadlift is just picking something off the ground, and rows are going to be bent, usually bent over and pulling something back in a rowing movement to work you're back. And by the way, beginners don't really have to use rose, in my opinion, you can incorporate those a little later. And then the squat, okay, so the squat is the mother of all lifts, in my opinion, because it works, the largest muscle groups, quads, the hips, the glutes, the hamstrings, the calves, and it even uses your stabilizers like your core, and you're back. So it's kind of a full body movement. And when you talk about wanting to build bigger biceps or tighter back or bigger glutes, I say, well, first, you got to get the foundation, squat, deadlift, and pressing, I mean, the pressing doesn't even really contribute to the lower body. But the squats and deadlifts definitely do. And they contribute to the core and everything else. So those are the basic basic movements that you want. In a beginner program. You don't need barbell curls, you don't you don't even need like chins and pull ups until you get a little bit a little bit in like a few months in. You don't need isolation movements, you don't need machines, you don't need cables, all that you don't need those, okay, for a basic program. So what is the protocol look like now? Okay, and I really hope this I know, this is a long answer to a question in the q&a segment. But I think this is important. So the program should allow you to workout three to five days a week, okay? Two days would be if you're significantly older, and you've never lifted like 70 Plus, but everybody else should be able to work out at least three to five days a week. And I one of the later questions of the four questions. Today, I'm going to talk about the difference between three and four or five day splits, and which one's more beneficial? So stay tuned for that question. So 35 workouts per week, I liked the advice by Mike Matthews of Legion athletics, in terms of how many sets to do and he likes to say nine to 12 Hard sets per major muscle group, okay, per week, which basically comes out to be nine to 12 sets of something per workout, or to make it really easy three or four movements with like three or four sets. Fair enough. So three or four movements, three or four sets, you're not going to do seven movements or eight different machines or anything like that, I can do cardio, none of that three to five movements. Keeping it simple, I would use straight sets across at first, what does that mean, you're going to do say three sets of five, or three sets of four, or three sets of six, and just go up in weight each time. Don't make it complicated with rep ranges and RPE are IR if you've heard all these terms, don't let them you know, confused the beginning phase, which we want to keep very simple. You want to go heavy, what does that mean? Heavy mean 75 to 85% of your max. Now you're not gonna know what that is at the beginning. So you just want to go with something that is achievable, and then start going up from there. And you want to work in the four to six rep range. The reason we do that, and I like five, it's right in the middle five reps. The reason we do that is it optimizes your volume it balances, reps and sets, okay? Or reps and weight. So if you go four to six reps, you can lift pretty heavy. If you were doing like one rep, it would be way too heavy and you probably wouldn't even have good form and wouldn't give you enough volume. If you're doing 20 reps, you're not gonna have much weight and you're gonna get fatigued really quickly and you're not going to get the stimulus you need. So around five reps is ideal. Once you start adding an accessory movements, other movements, you can go in higher rep ranges like six to eight or eight to 10 at a slightly lower weight. One of the important things we care about in our program is stimulus to fatigue ratio. I think that's I think Mike Israel, coined that phrase And it's the idea that you want the most muscle stimulus, but you also want to be able to recover. So always keep that in mind, if you feel like your training program is beating you up, and you you come sluggish to the gym every time and you're doing everything else, right? You know you're eating, you're sleeping, and so on, it may just be too much stimulus. Conversely, if you feel super fresh, and like you could easily lift more weight, and you probably shouldn't be lifting more, you should be lifting more. All right. And then finally, we're going to, we're trying to work out so heavy that it feels like it's one to three reps shy of failure. And as you get more into training, you'll understand what that means. If you use sets across and just go up in weight each week, it'll keep you in that range. And then we're going to have decent rest periods anywhere from two to five minutes between the movements. Okay, so that was quite a bit that could probably be a podcast all to itself. But what are the considerations for people over 40 and women over 40? All right, and I say women and I say people because a lot of it's the same, regardless of gender. The differences for women that I've seen, and that I think the science or the evidence has shown is women can generally handle a little bit more volume on average than men, which just means that you might have to do a few extra reps, or take a little bit less rest period, or have do the movements more often during the week. So with all that sounds sounds like bad news, right? Like you have to do more, but it also means that you could recover more quickly. So that's the plus side of all of that. And recovery is the name of the game as we get old. So I'm in my 40s. And I'm feeling I don't feel like I was in my 20s I couldn't work, do 90 minute sessions every day for six days a week, no way. So let's talk about the considerations to have the most optimal workout and feel your best but still make progress. First, you're not going to like get something they're not going to like this, but you've got to eat food, you've got to eat enough. And if you really want to make gains in the gym, you have to at least eat at maintenance calories, but more likely, you want to be in a very slight surplus. So strengthen muscle gains and of any meaningful amount, you're not going to get them in a diet. Okay, if you're brand new, and you're in a very slight diet, and you've got all the other things up to snuff, right like your your steps and your sleep and your stress and your macros and everything, then yeah, maybe you can get a little body read composition going on. But it's not going to be optimal. If you want to focus on just the goal of getting stronger and increasing your muscle mass. Knowing that later, you can quickly lop the fat off, you need eat enough. So that's that's an important part of training for over 40.

Philip Pape 12:41

Recovery, recovery is very important. So as a beginner, you're probably going to be working out three days a week. And that gives you a good amount of rest periods a rest time. But as you get more advanced, you might end up working out four or five days a week. And so you really have to manage the programming style versus your ability to recover recovery in a couple of ways. One is recovery between sets. So taking long enough rest periods, right. And if you feel like you're just winded by set two or three, you might just need to wait longer. And then recovery in terms of don't not doing the same movement too many times in a week. Like if you're doing a three times per week squatting program. But you've been doing that for three months, you may be too fatigued doing that and need to back off on the frequency or at least on the load. All right. Here's another consideration for women specifically, I found that women sometimes can handle more sets with fewer reps. So for example of a program is written with three sets of five, and you start to plateau. Like let's say you're on your second month of training, the overhead press and you just don't feel like it's going up. Switch it to five sets of three. So if you think about it, you should be able to lift more weight for three reps than for five reps, or, yeah, more weight for three reps than for five reps. But now you're just going to do a couple extra sets. And because women again have a better recovery ability and ability to handle volume, this actually works pretty well sometimes because you can get those extra couple sets. Whereas a male trainer might, you know, might find that too fatiguing in terms of volume that the way that structured. So we'll let you progress continue to progress. So think of instead of three sets of five, five sets of three as a way to continue progressing, okay? sleep and stress so important when you're over 40 They're always important, but if you can get that eight or even nine hours of sleep, if you can manage your stress or a cut things out of your life you don't need, you can find time to yourself and you can find time for self care as much as possible. That's gonna go a long way in how you feel in the gym and your ability to make gains. We talked about food, we talked about recovery. The only other thing I would say is don't Don't go with the same program too hard for too long. If you're six or eight weeks in or even 10 weeks in, and you're feeling just beat up, you can take a D load. And a D load is where you take a very light week where you still have high intensity, but you do many fewer sets. And you might even notch the intensity down a bit like to 80% of what you were doing, just for that week, cut out all the accessory movement, and then continue with your block the next week. That's one approach. The other approach is just switch it up. If you're doing a strength based program, switch to a bodybuilding program, you know, those are ways to kind of allow your body body to keep recovering. So I hope Christina that that answers your question is a lot of information, go back and watch or listen to this again. And of course, you can reach out to me with direct questions. And if there's further q&a from that q&a Answer, I will clarify more in the future. Hey, this is Philip Pape. And if you feel like you've put in effort to improve your health and fitness, but aren't getting results, I invite you to apply for a one on one coaching to make real progress and get the body you desire. We'll work together to figure out what's missing so you can look better, perform better and feel better. Just go to wits & weights.com/coaching, to learn about my program and apply today. Now back to the episode. All right, question two is from Sophia G. She asks another woman over 40 Here I've been lifting with progressive overload for a year, I've not been able to progress as much as I would like. It's not that I don't want to go heavier. I just don't feel safe in doing one rep, let alone four to six. What are my options? So Sophia, thanks for that question. Obviously, you you've already gotten know some of the information that I just shared about training and training for women over 40. But the struggle I'm sensing here is more on the safety and the confidence in the gym. So I'm going to repeat what I said earlier in the episode and that is, if you don't have a coach yet, consider getting a coach even if it's just for one or two sessions to teach you the movements and look at your form and give you feedback. Okay, you know, if it's not in your budget to hire a personal trainer ongoing, just just have one or two sessions. If you can find a starting strength coach in your area, go online and look that up. I would highly recommend someone like that. I mean, I've worked with them myself. Such as oh man, what's his name in Connecticut?

Philip Pape 17:33

Cheese. And you know, Cody, Cody's is Cody and Nino's his name in Connecticut. And he helped me tremendously with my squat, my deadlift and my press all in one session. That's one. The second option is if you're going to do the DIY route, I want you to take video of your lifts and watch them back and compare them to either books or videos about that show you proper form. Okay, so this is a skill, it's a skill for life, and you're going to constantly have to tweak and get better. But unless you get feedback, it's very hard to know where your bad habits are. So use the video and check and watch yourself. Also, you could upload your video to one of a number of groups online that do form checks, okay, like I do form checks for my clients directly, for example. And if you had a remote coach like that could be an affordable option. If you can't afford a personal trainer, in person, or remote coach, and I know a few I could recommend could give you a form check and tell you what cues to use to to better lift some resources. Okay, I would definitely check out starting strength, the book and all their videos and resources on the proper and safe and effective way to lift. I would go look at videos by barbell logic on YouTube. Okay, barbell logic, and then and then let's talk about actual safety in the gym. You want to use a spotter like another person has a spotter or the pins and spotter arms on a power rack when at a minimum when you're squatting and when you're benching Okay, so when you squat, you want to sit the pins or the spotter arms, those are the the pins or the arms that go across the rack that can be used as stops as safety stops. You want to go down into a full squat and set those just below that point. So if you have to bail on the squat, you're going to bail forward, you're not going to go backward like in CrossFit where you dump the bar and everything clanks to the ground and then you damage equipment, you're going to just gently lean forward set the bar on the spotter. That's how you safely squat. I do that myself in my home gym. benchpress is even more important because benchpress actually could be dangerous. If you don't have a spotter spotter arms because you could drop the bar on your chest or neck and then not be able to get out of it. Pardon me. So again, spotter arms, you want them set up at the height between your neck and chest. So that if you fail the rep, you can just gently set it down and then like scooch out from under it while it's just safely sitting on the spotter arms. So that's important. And then here's the thing, you said, you feel you don't feel safe doing even one rep, let alone four to six, there, there has to be a weight that's light enough, where you do feel safe doing four to six, it might be the empty 45 pound Olympic bar, or it might be an empty women's bar, or like even a 15 pound bar, if you can get that, um, you could buy one yourself, if it's a home gym, or a PVC pipe, or a mop or broom handle seriously, and do your four to six, your three sets of four to six or whatever, with that weight, you should be able to do something, right, and then go up from there. So if it's a 15 pound bar, and you're like, Yeah, this is no problem, you know, add five pounds on each side and make it 25 pounds. Oh, now this is starting to feel a little heavy, but it's not so crazy heavy that you feel unsafe. So start there. And then each session just add a little bit of weight. This is where you might need microplates you have to buy those, just put them in your gym bag, where you get like quarter pound, half pound, three quarter one pound plates, so that you can go up by two pounds instead of five or 10. Okay, so I hope all that helps. And you just going to iterate through that process and developing that skill, watching videos, reading books, doing form checks, working with coaches as needed, reaching out to me reaching out to others in our group, you know, slowly progressing over time, you know, backing off a little bit if you feel unsafe, and you need to rework and form and then just keep going and you're gonna get there. All right. Question number three is from Alan, F. My man Alan, he asks, does research show a difference between a three day full body work? Three day full body strength training schedule, versus breaking it up into four or five days split? Like push core pull calves legs, core full body? Okay. He's saying is there a difference in effectiveness between three days full body? And four or five day body part splits? And the answer is, the research suggests that there's not a difference for strength or size. But there is a difference based on you as an individual. So you knew I was You knew I was going to say it depends at some point here, but I'm going to break it down exactly to give you the decision tree to to decide that from. So two research studies that came out just in the past year two, one is by ama evangelist at all in 2021. And the conclusion was that quote, resistance training twice or four times per week has similar effects on neuromuscular adaptation, provided weekly Set volume is equal. Okay, so that's neuro muscular adaptation. It doesn't matter. The other study Peterson at all in 2022, and Brad Schoenfeld was on this. And he's, he's one of the researchers that I really respect out there. Quote, this study did not show any benefits for split body resistance training program compared to full body resistance training program on measures of maximal and explosive muscle strength, and muscle mass. So again, they didn't really find a difference. What's the most important thing, Alan and everyone listening, as we said before, progressive overload, okay, so whatever a combination of intensity volume, and recovery allows for you as an individual to get stronger, is the best program for you. But there are some things to consider. Okay. So the first one is your training age and your experience, if you are beginner, three days, full body, bar, none, I wouldn't even consider anything else. And that's because you get the best bang for your buck in terms of the lifts in terms of your time, it's time efficient, you're not going to have very long rest periods, because you're new, and you're gonna be able to recover really quickly, within two days to do all those movements again. So you should be squatting every session, you should be dead lifting or pulling every session and doing some sort of press every session, every session. That's it, period. That's my opinion, no matter what age you are, unless you're very, very, very old and have never lifted, maybe it's two days a week, okay? Another factor is ability to recover between sessions. This is often tied to the first thing, age and training experience. So the older you are the hardest to recover, the more you want to consider whether you need a three or four day split as a result. Now, it could go both directions. A three day split gives you extra time between sessions, but it's also longer, right? And you may get more beat up doing it that way, in which case splitting it into four or five days allows you to spread that fatigue out over the week and recover better. So that's going to be individualized. The other thing is your personal schedule and whether you enjoy it and it makes it's consistent. Right? If your schedule doesn't allow for four or five days, because you know, you work a full time job, you have a family you have all these obligations. Then three days it is or maybe every other day where it's kind of a shifted schedule, right or maybe every third day, whatever makes sense, three days is great. For beginners, it's time efficient, it stimulates all the big muscle groups multiple times per week, it helps with your work capacity. And your it helps it gives you enough frequency to become better at the lifts to develop skill. So I said that already, but barn on beginners, three days, four or five days is what you want when you are intermediate, or advanced. So that could be as soon as three to six months after you start training, if you do it the right way. Definitely, if you're a year or two into training, you're probably up to a four or five day split at this point. Because then you can get more frequency and volume for muscle mass and hypertrophy. Right. So like the bodybuilding type stuff.

Philip Pape 25:44

Also, the training sessions won't be as long because when you're an intermediate trainer, you're you're lifting much heavier and you need more rest periods. And your sessions generally go up to like an hour and a half. So splitting into four or five days allows you to get that back down to maybe an hour. But again, it's going to depend on can your schedule accommodate that some people would rather have long sessions where they have the commute time built in than shorter sessions. Now the long story short is the best program is the one you can stick with that you can enjoy. And that meets your lifestyles and goals, lifestyle and goals. But let me give you an example from my personal experience over the last two years, I started with a three day split, when I was a beginner. Then I moved to a four day, a four day split, that I moved to a four day conjugate style program. Then I moved to a five day bodybuilders power building program. Then I tried a six day bodybuilding program, I went back to a four day conjugate program. And now because I'm in a fat loss phase, and I want to get more sleep, I'm back to a three day program. But it's not a beginner program. It's more of an advanced program. There you go. Alright, question for Question four is from Jay W. She asks, What are your recommended pre and post workout nutrition strategies? All right, always love this question. Because it can get complicated and it doesn't need to be. I'm trying to, I'm gonna try to simplify the guidelines as much as possible. And if you want a book about a really good book about flexible dieting and macros, that covers the research behind a lot of this flexible dieting by Alan Aragon is fantastic. He came out with it, I think lat just last year. And he summarizes all the research really succinctly. So here we go, I'm going to talk about protein, carbs and fats, protein, consume protein up to two hours before and two hours after your workout. That's pretty broad, right? So you get a lot of flexibility, consume some protein up to two hours before up to two hours after. And this will maximize muscle protein synthesis. If you're eating enough protein, you're probably going to be eating four or five times a day anyway. So if you're working out that day, make two of those times two hours before and up to two hours after. And I would say somewhere like 25, or 30 grams of protein at each of those is in the ballpark for most people, you know, if you're much larger, it's going to be higher. So that's that's protein, simple. Carbs. You You generally want carbs in your blood from a meal consumed up to two hours before the workout or a small amount, 30 minutes before your workout. So let me explain if you if you have breakfast, and then you train it 10. And you know, if you had breakfast at eight, and you train at 10, and your breakfast had a deep amount of carbs in it, you're good. If you wake up early, and the first thing you do is work out, well then give yourself a 30 minute buffer and have a simple carb like fruit, banana, I love bananas because they add potassium which is excellent electrolyte. So fruit or something like rice. Okay, 30 minutes prior, give yourself a little time to start digesting and then hit the gym. Okay, and this can be as little as 10 to 20 grams just to get something in your system to help you with your performance. Because when you work out when you strength train, you start to draw on your glycolytic tank on your glycogen. And if you don't have that tank filled, like if the last time you ate was dinner the night before, in your tank is half full, you're going to deplete it much more quickly and you're going to start to feel like you can't lift as much. And the whole goal of strength training is lifting the heaviest weight we can for progressive overload. So if it's a long workout, or if you can't consume carbs before your workout, try to consume them during the workout. So this could be something like highly branched cyclic dextran or it could be fruit. The bodybuilders way back in the day would have like pop tarts and gummy bears I don't recommend that. But you know, the dextrin or fruit would work something that's easy on the stomach and digest pretty quickly and then just get your the your next carbs at your next meal within a few hours. So I know I talked a lot about the carbs but just to simplify, have carbs up to two hours before The closer you are to workout make it simpler carbs that digest quickly. If you can't consume before consumed during, and also consume carbs within a few hours after you workout, it could just be your next meal. Or if it's a very intense training session like CrossFit or a lot of movement, you want to consume it sooner than that to refill your glycogen. That's it. Fats easy, limited or no fats at all, because they slow digestion of protein, carbs, and they have no benefit at all for energy or hypertrophy or strength during strength training. So don't worry about fats, I mean, worry about them in the sense that try to keep keep them low to minimal, low to non existent. So here's what I do. I work out in the morning, early in the morning, I give myself about half an hour, 45 minutes, I wake up, I have a banana and a way shake, I get some work done. Or maybe I read and relax. And then I go for my training session. After my training session, within 45 minutes, I have a way shake with some highly branched cyclic dextran. Or now that I'm in a fat loss phase, I can't even afford those carbs. So I just go jump right into breakfast. All right. Hope that helped. That is it for our first q&a episode. If you found this helpful or valuable, let me know please by leaving a five star review at Apple or Spotify, I often read these reviews on the show. And I would be happy to give you a shout out if you want. And again, thanks for listening and stay strong. Thanks for listening to the show. Before you go, I have a quick favorite ask. If you enjoy the podcast. Let me know by leaving a five star review in Apple podcasts and telling others about the show. Thanks again for joining me Philip Pape in this episode of Wits & Weights. I'll see you next time and stay strong.

Philip Pape 2/7/23 Philip Pape 2/7/23

Ep 44: Menopause and Weight Gain, Brain and Heart Health, and Empowering Women with Alison Bladh

I was honored to speak with Alison Bladh about women’s health, particularly during menopause, to help demystify the associated affects on weight, brain and heart health, sleep, stress, and other symptoms to empower women to take control of their health.

Alison Bladh is a registered nutritional therapist and beauty therapist living in the wilds of Sweden after falling for the charms of a Viking man!

Alison worked in the health and wellness industry for over 30 years specializing in menopausal women’s health and currently runs an online clinic helping women worldwide manage the negative symptoms of menopause.

Her mission is to support her clients with individualized changes to diet, health, mindset and lifestyle so they can harness their hormones and get their confidence and sparkle back.

Alison supports busy, midlife women who are stressed, depressed, gained weight, and have lost their confidence…because all women, no matter what age, deserve to reclaim their health and feel great. Every woman has the right to feel and look amazing in midlife!

Topics discussed in this episode:

The spark that inspired Alison to help women get their sparkle back (her mission to help women during midlife/menopause)
Menopause and its importance (especially regarding hormone reproduction)
Why there is a stigma attached to menopause
Why weight gain occurs during midlife/menopause and what can be done about it
How someone can modify their lifestyle to manage the symptoms
How to sleep better and manage stress
How to improve bone health
How to improve hair and skin
The importance of blood sugar and how to regulate
How to improve brain and heart health
The story of a client who got her "sparkle" back (the steps/process)
How all women can embrace menopause positively for a long, happy, healthy life

RELATED LINKS

Alison's website for free downloads - alisonbladh.com
Find Alison on Instagram - @alisonbladh
Watch the episode on video here

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Transcript

Philip Pape 00:00

Before we start the episode, just a quick note about the audio quality of this one. For whatever reason, our connection had a delay, and some artifacts in the audio from our remote recording software, and we cleaned that up as best we could. I think you'll find the conversation both listenable and totally worth the small loss in audio quality. Enjoy the episode

Philip Pape 00:28

Alison Bladh 01:59

It's my pleasure, lovely to be on your podcast. Thank you for having me.

Philip Pape 02:04

Yeah, and thanks again. I'm really excited to talk to you today. I think the listeners are going to learn a lot and get a lot of value from this topic which is very important for women's health and jumping right into your mission to get women their sparkle back. What was your spark in taking that on? Like who is Alison Bladh? Why this singular but important mission to help women during midlife and menopause?

Alison Bladh 02:26

Yeah, we all like a bit of sparkle, don't when some of that when we come into midlife, I think we can lose a bit of that sparkle. But the reason that I'm so interested in in a work with with women for so many years and women's health was, you know, my journey started actually started off as an esthetician. And the reasons behind that was when I was growing up as a teenager, I suffered from very bad skin. So I have acne really, as a teenager, you know, the hormonal acne. And that really fascinated me, you know, why was I getting this so I really started researching and finding ways to improve with fashion lifestyle, I can medications. And then that led me interesting in Perry Manor because that is an area where all of a sudden you can really lip skin problems. And then stick them to ring on the outside on the skin usually needed to work on the inside as well. It really isn't enough just to treat the skin from the outside. And that's when I went back to university and studied nutritional science. So I've worked with my clients now, you know really working on nutrition, lifestyle and mindset to help women thrive through this time in their life. Because, you know, we all and gay gain their spot, uncle and love of life. So that's that's what I do you get your spot with that.

Philip Pape 04:03

Yeah, that's that's a great message. I think a lot of women can take heart knowing that there potentially is an approach with lifestyle with mindset with nutrition, before we necessarily have to go other routes and consider medication and so on. Why don't we Why don't we this is a big topic, as we were talking about before we started recording. Why don't we just define first menopause why what it is, why is why it's important, especially with regards to things like hormone production.

Alison Bladh 04:29

Yeah, great question. Because even though we hear the word menopause, they're still, you know, even the clients that I work with, we don't there's so many women or men that don't really fully understand what that is, you know, and it isn't just menopause. It's different stages. So if we look at the first, which is called perimenopause, and this on average starts at the age of 45. It can start earlier we're all very visual, but on average, it starts To the this is the stage before. So this is really where our hormones, in particular estrogen and progesterone really start to kind of become unbalanced, they really start to fluctuate, you know, still produce hormones, but they've unbalanced and this is where you can see the classic report or symptoms happening, you know, like hot flashes, weight gain, irritability, mood swings, I always like to say, you know, you've got your estrogen levels, which can be quite high during perimenopause. And this is a bit like the diva hormone. And the progesterone levels can be lower, and they're like the calming best. And so you know, when you reach your levels are high, and you haven't got that calming effect from progesterone, stone, you can get very irritable, and you can just find moody and anxious, and it's to do with the imbalances in hormones. So that's really your parent pools. And that goes on to refer to the relative 51. Again, and then what happens is, when you haven't had a menstrual period, or you haven't had a period of a year, you are then in menopause, which means that we're no longer fertile, you're no longer ovulating, you will still produce produce a small amount of estrogen and progesterone. But, you know, your levels will go down quite, quite considerably. Menopause really is just that phase, when you haven't had a period for a year. And all the time after that you're in post menopause. And that can be you know, the next 3035 years of your life. It's very, it's a, it's a transition early many years, and everybody isn't really, you know, some people go and have no problems. And some women, it can be really, you know, a very difficult time. But post menopause. It's like, it's a new phase of life, really 30 years of, of life where you should be things. So you know, what I would say to that get the support they need, because there's so many things that you can do. So you do five and have a happy, you know, it's like a new beginning and doesn't it?

Philip Pape 07:30

Yeah, so I love all of that. First of all, the metaphor about the the Diva and the calming best friend, I think that really resonates in terms of the perimenopause phase. But like you mentioned, menopause, is this exciting new phase of life potentially, for many decades, a significant portion of your life with all these opportunities for health and for just enjoying new things. And of course, why wouldn't you want to then take care of your health during that phase? So why why is there still this stigma, though, attached to menopause?

Alison Bladh 08:01

Yeah, it's a great question that I get asked that so many times. And it's, it's, I mean, I can relate when I think of when I was growing up, my grandmother and my mother and all the women at you know, within my family network, they didn't talk about menopause, it was very, very much a taboo subject. It was kind of, no, we don't talk about we just, you know, the very British, you know, stiff upper lip, just get on with it. And I think, you know, it's changing, it's changing, especially, I don't know, you're the welfare state. But in Europe, there's a bit of a menopause revolution going on, here. And women have really started saying, you know, this is enough, we want the sport, they shouldn't ignore attached to it. But I think maybe the stigma comes from the fact that you're not fertile anymore, is that we live in a society gently. As women get older, it's very much based as well, isn't it societies on how we look, you know, in everything, I think it has something to do with this is more of a, you know, an ending of your youth than your fertility. And it's something that maybe women feel that they don't want to talk about it as much. Whereas you know, puberty, that's like a new beginning, isn't it? Which, you know, it's just, it's a totally natural phase, and every single woman will go through it. So it really should be embraced rather than thought of, as, you know, being terrible, and we shouldn't talk about it. But I think a lot of it is to do with women getting older and we don't really want to talk about that. And we don't want to talk about the fact that we're not for sale anymore. And there's a lot there's a lot of negativity around that.

Philip Pape 09:56

Yeah, that's I mean, first of all, stating The obvious I can't relate directly with this, but I do, you know, have have a wife. And also I've seen the double standard with what you're talking about because, you know, men tend tend to kind of, I don't wanna say that goes through, but there isn't this major change or different phases in life. Whereas women have this, and hopefully, podcasts like like this, and the ones you're going on talking about this, and especially how women can embrace it right, and take control of their health through that phase and make it this new positive thing in life, I think, you know, go a long way toward this. So hopefully, the world is changing in terms of how we talk about it. So speaking of those changes, during menopause, I imagine that one of the big ones weight gain is is one of the bigger shocks and maybe struggles for a lot of women, which I've seen with clients as well. Why does this seemingly indiscriminate weight gain that comes out of nowhere and some times occur? And what can women do about it?

Alison Bladh 10:57

One is, I see that with a lot of my clients as well, the main, some one of the main reasons that they come to me, but it's just, it kind of just creeps up, isn't it, even if you're eating the same, and they've got the same lifestyle, you know, where you didn't put weight on, you know, all of a sudden just feel especially common for menopausal women to put weight on around the middle area, you know, we go from more of a pear shape to an apple. And it's, you know, there's so many things going on. So, you know, when we look at research, we still don't fully understand why this happened. But certainly different parts of the weight gain. One of the big players in this is stress is actually virtually impossible to lose weight, if you're suffering from chronic stress poems, called Zol, in particular, is what we call a store hormone. So if you're calm, stressed, you will find it very difficult way. So working on stress management is key for weight gain. But another thing that we have to remember is that you can't blame everything on the MediCal, the natural process of aging, you know, we tend to less active as we get older, which can or may lead to weight gain. Any we can't even have to think of portion control. And I'd love to, but you really can't get away with eating what you ate when you're in your 20s and 30s, when you're 50. So you read, which a lot of people don't really think about, they carry on eating the same amount of food, which leads to weight gain. And then there's another you know, estrogen is a major metabolic hormone. So when I go into perimenopause, there's so many metabolic shifts that are happening in the body that may lead to weight gain. And one of those is insulin resistance. When we talk about blood sugar balance in the body, you know, when we eat carbohydrates, pacifically refined, you know, the processed foods that really shoots our blood sugar levels up very quick. And what the body does to counteract that it produces a hormone called insulin. And insulin really is the nice way to describe it's kind of like the key that opens the cells in to the set of be utilized for energy. But what happens when we have decline in estrogen is that we don't become a sensitive to the the insulin, kind of like saying that the key doesn't work anymore. And we can find that we have high blood sugar level up good for weight gain, instant Lin format again. So if you if you've got levels, such as you to lose weight, it's really again, we're working on less refined, sugary, sugary foods, and other area for hunger hormone, leptin, and when we, again, can put is it's the hormone that makes us hungry, right, allows you to eat. So if you're producing more of the hormone, then you're going to have more of an appetite and you're going to be wanting to eat more. So in effect, leptin, which is our satiety hormone, and the satiety hormone is the one that when you eat and tells you to stop eating, so it's countless all this become alerts and it's the multitude of many things that you know, make us put weight on it in this time period. and also thyroid health. A lot of women, when we come into this time of ours have the thyroid is like the engine of the book and isn't worth looking at optimally can lead to weight gain some some of those symptoms of high, the thyroid gland is weight gain. So there's so many things you could actually do a whole podcast on on just on menopausal weight.

Philip Pape 15:27

Yeah, I love that. Alison , I know, I know, there's a little bit of delay here. So I'm not sure how major it is on your end. But I want to unpack a lot of that. Because what's in what resonated with me is, a lot of times we talk about dieting, or even taking menopause out of the equation, we talk about dieting and metabolic adaptation, a lot of the same hormones come into play, right, they get downregulated, cortisol goes up, reproductive hormones go down, you talked about the appetite, hormones, leptin and ghrelin. And I want the listener to understand that what you're saying is women in menopause just because of this physiological change, you know, biological changes in our body are also undergoing these things that they didn't have to deal with 510 15 years earlier. And the awareness of this is where you start to then you know, unpack and make changes. So talks about cortisol. Usually, people say that's the stress hormone, but I like how you also refer to its ability to help to help you store fat when it goes up. And sometimes people and they take an inventory of their day to day life, it's not really even about the food and all their activity, it's that they're so stressed that they're preventing themselves from proper fat loss, you know, and it may be getting sleep, and maybe something like that. So I think these are important because they they're, they're factual things about how our bodies work, that if you understand them, you can then go the next step, which is where I think you come in, right? Where you're, you know, your mission in helping women change their lifestyle, change the nutrition, how can someone start to then modify their lifestyle based on all these changes to manage the negative symptoms? Yeah, so

Alison Bladh 17:02

when when, if the whole they need to look at the nutrition, you need to look at lifestyle, and you also need to look at mindset. And there are some things that you can do to really help manage weight. And I know you mentioned sleep there, which I haven't gone to that yet. But that is really key for weight management, amongst other things, but I think the main things that that we want, we think about nutrition is that we really want to eat more of an anti inflammatory diet. Because when inflamed, it's very difficult for all the process to function as they should. And estrogen has an anti inflammatory effect. So when that goes down, you know, it causes inflammation. And when we're trying to lose weight, trying to really rebalance the body, we want to think about eating and the inflammatory foods. And a very, or style of eating is more of a what we call the Mediterranean style diet, which is, you know, you're eating lovely, fresh proteins don't in the Mediterranean style diet, they don't eat much red meat, a little amount of red meat, but a lot of nuts and seeds, all the ones for olive oil, olives, buttered ghee, and they're really, you know, getting the majority of your carbohydrates from fruit and vegetables and whole grains that they don't there's very little sugar and processed foods in a Mediterranean style diet. And you know, they've seen it always in research, you will always say that the Mediterranean style diet really comes up as the best style of eating, for weight loss and for overall health. And when pacifically for weight loss, we really tried to focus on reduce reducing carbohydrates and really getting a car behind rate adjustable balls or cruciferous vegetables. For example, when you're looking at the plate that you would eat from you would you would have a boat team and then you would have some Health's and then you have your carbohydrates from vegetables since to really reduce the amount of energy that you're taking into your body and eating foods as well which are very important for menopausal women to help detox re individual and it's absolutely not about going on a diet or restrict addiction. It's really it's a lightness is change, you know, giving someone the tools that they can eat in this way for the rest of their life, because it's not something that you can just do for a couple of weeks. It is it's a lifestyle change. So has to be less sick, that people can volunteer and delicious.

Philip Pape 20:21

Yeah, no, I, I totally agree with everything you said. Normally, I don't use named diets. But yet the Mediterranean style diet is one of the few maybe two or three on the planet that is highly compatible. I agree with what you're saying. And anti inflammatory diet. It's mostly unprocessed foods, delicious foods that you can incorporate. And then most of your, like you said, most of your grains from fibrous foods, which also help with other things like hunger and digestion, etc. But then have the added benefit of being caught, you know, nutrient dense, so low calorie for a lot of bet a lot of bang for your buck. So excellent anti inflammatory diet. Now, would you recommend an elimination diet to get there in terms of making it sustainable? Or, like, what are the baby steps or what are the steps you take clients through, so that they go from what they're eating today, which could be vastly different from that, to where they should end up.

Alison Bladh 21:15

So when I work with when I work with clients, I work very individually. You know, we work together and really focusing on their goals, because everyone has a different, you know, many different goals, the majority of women come to see me, they're normally overwhelmed, they're very stressed, they're tired all the time, you know, they just need someone to help them and give them that energy back. So what I always work on first, so food, to nourish and nurture the body. So this is really important, because we need to make sure we're getting all the correct vitamins and minerals. So really nurturing and nourishing the body and hydrating the body. And also working with that person in a way that it will suit them. Because we all have different life styles, we all have different, you know, things going on in our lives. So So really looking at what they're each thing and, you know, taking out certain things putting in certain things. I wouldn't in question, I wouldn't do an elimination diet unless a particular reason that that person needed it. I mean, if if there's any sign of maybe allergies, or, you know, problems with gluten, or lactose excetera, then yes, I would. But it's very individual, it's not something for everybody.

Philip Pape 22:48

Hey, this is Philip Pape. And if you feel like you've put in effort to improve your health and fitness, but aren't getting results, I invite you to apply for a one on one coaching to make real progress and get the body you desire. We'll work together to figure out what's missing. So you can look better, perform better and feel better, just go to wits & weights.com/coaching, to learn about my program and apply today. Now back to the episode.

Alison Bladh 23:12

Firstly signature and hydrate and then we move on to, you know, elimination if needed. So what I like to do is to eliminate and then repair and then reboot. So really looking and when when we talk about elimination or removing thing isn't necessarily always nutrition. It can also be, you know, lifestyle habits that are beneficial for your health. So it's really looking at everything together and really moving those things, maybe reading them with something else, and then really rebooting everything and it can get in the body better, but homeostasis. Another key area of my work is stress. So I sit down and we do a stress audit. Because I think really, especially when you come into perimenopause, just to be honest with yourself and the majority of people when we're living you know, in this age, we're all stressed or some degree majority of people so I'm so stressed, I'm so busy. But you really have to sit down and be honest with yourself and look at things that you could maybe manage differently. So you have time for yourself to reduce, because as we were saying earlier, it is so detrimental to help suffering from chronic stress because of bones. You know what happens in the body. So really looking at what is going on stress wise and coming up with ideas for that for the client. That work for them could be something as simple as deep breathing exercises. You know if you're if you're sat at your back and you're suddenly starting to feel anxious, anxiety big sent to menopause. Amazing. Just take some really three or four deep breaths it completely resets body, it's actually virtually impossible to be stressed when you're breathing deeply. So something as simple as that, if you could do if you, if you like yoga, if you like meditation, great, but the majority of people I work with don't have the time to spend, you know, doing meditation or yoga every day. But I mean, that is a fantastic way to manage stress, and really just find it, you know, just for five minutes, going for a walk, getting banned, no, just looking out the window tapes and little things if you do them every day, you know, really, really mount up and help help to relieve stress. And I think with management, it's admitting that you're stressed, and admitting that you need to do something about it, rather than just, you know, carrying on and on until ill, or you become so stress, you have to look at it and look after yourself. So stress audit, and then I missed that, you know, how we can make this time in our lives with a more poor mindset. I also look at testing and in, in my programs as well, again, that is very individual, and it would depend on the client. You know, we could do functional testing, to test for example, moans, we can do all tests, we can look at the microbiome, the gut bacteria, to really testing is wonderful, because you can really get to the bottom and you can really see, you know, what is going on in the different systems of the body. And then it did supplementation for any deficiencies or, you know, things that that we work with. I work with clients for life, because it is very individual, but my main aim is to result you know, you tell me the goals that you've got, that is what I'm trying to achieve, you know, get it get your result.

Philip Pape 27:01

Yeah, thank thanks, Alysa, for going through all of those, like the hierarchy of priorities, where you know, we first focus on the big things like sleep and stress, and then maybe collect more data with the testing. And finally, things like supplementation going back, going back to stress for a second. I like that you acknowledge the fact that people don't want to unnecessarily add more stress to their life trying to manage stress, right? It's like, oh, now you're telling me to do yoga, you're telling me to do this other thing, and I already don't have enough time. So go ahead and work on breathwork. And every time I talked to a guest who taught who mentioned breathwork, immediately, I want to do it myself in the moment and realize how much it relaxes your you because of the parasympathetic state it is right. So these are these are excellent tips. And of course, having a coach like like you, Alison would would help someone because they can individually kind of step back, get that extra that third party perspective on those little things that can make a big difference. So why don't we get into then some specific symptoms that I think we wanted to cover? You told me what you want to go over here, but I was thinking bone health is a big concern for women with the prevalence of osteopenia, osteoporosis, you know, the general frailty as we age which can lead to injury and hospitalization for polypharmacy reduced function, so many things. I think people don't even think how important that is. We talk a lot about strength training on this podcast is one way to improve that, but what's your advice for bone health?

Alison Bladh 28:30

Yeah, that is so crucial affiliate bone health, and it's kind of the thing, because you don't really, you know, if you get if you if your bone, if you're losing bone density, it's nothing that you really, really feel like there's kind of this silent thing that can happen to you, and your downfall. Fortunately, if you fall over when you're older, if you're suffering osteoporosis, or, you know, you've lost bone density, you know, you can break something. And, you know, it's very, very, you can see in studies that the density of bone in women when they lose the estrogen and progesterone goes down quite considerably. So it's something that you really have to think of and be quite active, nutritionally wise and lifestyle and 100% behind you on strength training, because that gives such fantastic results for strengthening bones. So what I say well, my menopausal ladies is you have to do strength training. There's no that that is a must to keep your your bones and muscles, you know, strong and active. So that is a really key thing. I mean, I'm not a personal trainer, but that is what I would recommend that they go to professional advice on how they should be training. As far as it comes when it comes to nutrition, you need to think about calcium rich foods. The thing that we need, well, there's many things but the Pacific like vitamins and minerals that we need for bone health is calcium, vitamin D, vitamin K, magnesium is crucial as well. So you really have to make sure that you've got a diet rich in these rich vitamins and minerals, because vitamin D, vitamin K and calcium, they all kind of worked together to improve bone density. So, you know, we all think of calcium, don't we, which of course is important, but calcium on its own, you know, it cannot actually be at all. So you really have to be careful, you're going to take calcium supplements that you can buy the vitamin D and Vitamin K, I mean, the majority of very good supplements in supplements actually have these other nutrients combined in the supplement. Very much a believer in food first, you know, try and get your nutrients from food if possible. You know, when you think of calcium, you think of dairy milk, your green leafy vegetables, a lot of nuts have calcium in Vitamin D is at the it's actually quite difficult to get enough vitamin D through food. Because there aren't that many food sources of vitamin D, we produce vitamin D from sunlight as well. So it's very important that in the summer months that we go outside and expose our bodies to some because the body produces D through sunlight. But vitamin D probably one of the only supplements that you're one of the only victims I would recommend and supplementing because it's so difficult to get the amount that we need you know, in high enough doses through there is vitamin D in like oily fish eggs, but it's I know it's meant to bitumen D has been talked about so much through the pandemic as well because the effects that it has on the immune system. It's a crucial crucial vitamin for many many things but killer bone health and I know in Europe and into Kingdom it's actually a vitamin supplement the government you know the health authorities recommend that people take as a supplements high risk surgeon if you don't go out died very much if you're really if you live in a darker climb because it's so crucial for so many different things in body so that's your your bone health. Also stressing you know, keeping act and avoid again and you know, I think every single day when we talk about health, avoiding sugary foods, processed foods, fizzy drinks, because they really let the they strip your bones that they're not good. They can actually have a negative effect your bones especially all the really sugar laden drink avoiding your bet and really getting your back from whole nutritious foods.

Philip Pape 33:12

Excellent answer that question I think again you raised awareness of how the menopause itself and the changes in hormones especially the estrogen compounds that affect for women, right it compounds the lack of bone density and increases the need for all of these factors. You mentioned strength training and calcium rich foods and potentially supplementation which are all excellent things and reminds me in New England here you know it's getting cold and dark and you know get as much sunlight as I can but maybe the vitamin D supplementation needs to be looked at so what about some some other things that are I'm not gonna say they're less important than bones are important for individuals but hair and skin for example. I know you mentioned in your your story how that I think you came into this from from from a skin perspective right Healthy Skin How can women improve that during menopause?

Alison Bladh 34:04

Yeah, skin it again, it's it's a huge subject under hair as well. Again, you know, estrogen is so it we have estrogen receptors all over our body, that when estrogen levels start to dip, it affects every system of the body cluding up our skin. They start noticing on your skin like pigmentation. You can get sensitive skin you can get dry skin. You can actually develop acne, you know as you come into perimenopause because of the hormonal imbalances but it all it all goes back down to really you know eating anti inflammatory diet more than Mediterranean style diet. Making sure that you're hydrating enough, you know enough water and then we know we talked about skin there there are meat treatments that you can do that can help the skin because also the decline in estrogen, but you've got aging process as well, because the collagen in the skin as we get older declines quite considerably. And the collagen is really collagen and elastin is what our body needs, while the skin needs to keep him fresh. Seeing protein is key really good sources of protein for the health and for her health. So really making sure that getting enough protein, that that's something that a lot of women don't do, we don't eat enough protein. And also talking about bone health and muscle skill a health, it's already pre made, still roughly what I aim for a part size of protein with every meal. And when I talk about protein, I mean things like chicken fish, if you don't eat meat, you know all your soy products, nuts, beans, protein is, is also going back to what is great for my weight management because when you eat protein you become you're quite satisfied, you can actually eat a lot of 13. So it fills you up. It's very crucial for skin health and for hair health. And using products on skin that give moisture, you know, an older skin and menopausal skin is lacking hydration, estrogen that the hormone estrogen enables our skin to hold water. So as we become older, we lose the skin lose that that loses the ability to hydrate as well. So you really need to use products that contain a lot, a lot of moisture and sun, of course, you know, if you talk about, you really have to think on exposure, because that really is so detrimental to the skin as far as aging pigmentation. So making sure that when you apply products that you have, if we're talking about the face, if you have a day cream with an SPF in, and what the research is saying is that you should really have an SPF, at least of 30 because they're using you, when you come into your 40s or mid 40s You really see on your skin, what you've done to it in your 20s. So if you were, you know, done worshipper, when your teens and 20s, that that pigmentation and that damage that you did, then it kind of catches up with you in later life and you're suddenly starting pigmentation and you'll see that your skin will age a lot quicker. So get on protection is crucial for the skin. It really is you really see a difference if you if you protect your face from the sun.

Philip Pape 37:55

Alison, it's funny all the all of the things you're talking about to improve your hair and skin are also things that are good practice for all the other areas of health that we've been talking about as well. So it's nice that everything kind of comes together in one big package right eating protein. I hear so many times people wanting to go to, I don't know collagen supplements or collagen itself, which is, in my opinion, quite a low quality protein for consumption, versus just getting protein from natural food sources as you suggest. And then the dehydration and avoiding avoiding UV exposure with sunblock, but still going out in the sun to get your Vitamin D right. We have to do a little both are all great. Great tip. So what about Okay, so I know we're getting close on time here. Um, there's we could go into blood sugar, we can go into brain health, heart health. Maybe, maybe instead, can you share a specific example of maybe a client that you worked with? Who had, I guess lost your sparkle, right, as you call it, and the steps or process you might have gone through together to get that back so we can focus on a couple of key areas that you might have worked with a client on?

Alison Bladh 39:05

Yeah, sure. I had just under I was for eight months, and she she came to me. She was overwhelmed, very, very tired. She had been sleeping. And she had bloating, you know, the have stomach. You know, she said when she did her stomach just really expanded your clothes feel very tight. And she was in perimenopause. And she was just generally feeling terrible and like, you know, her spa golf had certainly. So her main goals were to work on bloating and to energy levels. So what we did is we looked at her diet to play to see what she was eating and really started putting in a lot of things that would improve her gut health because bloating again is a symptom of perimenopause. And what we found was, we actually did quite a lot of well, and it was really interesting because what there was an imbalance I am in our gut, there's some people dysbiosis, which is the microbiome of the gut bacteria. And we've seen in so many studies now that this is crucial, you know, not only to prevent bloating, but for overall health, the microbiome in our gut bacteria has an effect on everything, even brain health and how we're feeling and mood and everything. So we we really worked on that by introducing probiotic foods. probiotic foods are things like sauerkraut, kimchi, kefir, all the fermented foods that have live bacteria. And so she started introducing those into a diet, we got rid of all the sugary processing foods, and introduce whole foods in our diet. And once you take away the processed sugary foods, you will start feeling better even if you do something. So after a couple of weeks of eating the whole foods, she felt so much better. But then we really focused on on the gut bacteria with the probiotics. And getting sugar improved her blood sugar balance, so she had much more energy. We worked on asleep by introducing a sleep hygiene routine that works for her. And it was mainly just she had quite a high pressure job. And it was more giving her time to wind down before she went to bed because she was sat working virtually until the time she like just went back to bed. So she actually took an hour before she went to sleep to unwind to turn off all devices, maybe read a book or just have a bath, but Epsom salt baths we introduced which are wonderful for anyone's have probably really is fantastic. Because Epsom easier absorbed into the skin and maximum magnesium is such a calming mineral. So if you do that before you go to bed, you really really to help you sleep. So she was sleeping better, she was eating better, we worked on her gut bacteria. She actually lost weight as well, even, that wasn't her main goal. But she was very happy about that. And what was so fantastic with this client was that I still keep in touch with her now is that she's managed to keep all these things in place. So it's become a lifestyle for her that and she feels so much better. And she's really enjoying this new way of eating. It's not it's not restrictive at all, and how she feel so much. It motivates her to carry on with it. So that's what is one client in particular. Yeah,

Philip Pape 42:59

that's an amazing story. I'm sure you have many clients stories like that. And for the listener, you know, there's some bigger changes here. But there are some smaller changes that just the little nudge in the right direction, like the sleep hygiene, fantastic example where you're not you're not trying to get her two hours more of sleep, per se. You're just saying look, the blue light and the stress and working right up until you go to bed is just causing the quality of employment. So here's a small change you can make. I like the idea of the bath stew because not only the salt baths, but just having a warm bath actually cools you down is you know, an interesting thing people aren't aware of. Okay, that's these are these are amazing things. Alison, you gave us a ton to think about. I do like to ask one question of all guests before we wrap up. And that is what what one question Did you wish I had asked and what is your answer?

Alison Bladh 43:51

Yeah, I think like the positive side, you know, what are the positive sides to men a good talk about, like doom and gloom? Really? Isn't it slow this thing down? Because there are there are actually some positive stuff. So the positive sides to mess are the there's no you don't have any more pain areas, which I'm sure virtually all women will be quite happy about. No more PMS. So no more of that, like mood swings and you know, being angry before your periods. You have no pregnancy worries. So you can have sex without having to worry about getting pregnant. And normally, this isn't always the case, but a lot of women suffer from migraine headaches. But once your hormone levels have really declined and stopped, you know, stop producing, seeing estrogen, your hormone headaches go away. And it's also very impact I'm I think I'm for me. Now. Now I'm going to look after myself and I'm going to do what I wanted. It's, I think it's fantastic to see women when, in this stage of their life, you know, some of them are setting up businesses, they're going off traveling around the world. It's like a sense of freedom. In a way, this is me time, and I'm going to go and do exactly what I want. And you feel that you don't have, you don't have to prove yourself anymore. That kind of worrying about what other people think about you. It has gone, you just do what you want to do, and then feel happier and more confident about that.

Philip Pape 45:30

Yeah, that's amazing. So there's both the mindset and the physical positives of this new phase of life or menopause that women can look forward to. And then, of course, take control of their health and lifestyle with many of the things you've talked about today on the show. So last question is, where can listeners learn more about you and your work, Alison?

Alison Bladh 45:50

Yeah, I think the best place to come from my website, which is alisonbladh.com. And that's B L A DH. And I'm on all social media platforms. Twitter, Instagram, Tik Tok. And that's alisonbladh, you'll find those that I also have on my website has a resources page, which is got lots of free downloads, lots of free with meal plans, and recipe ideas. For example, if you're interested in skin health, there's a recipe book for improving skin. There's lots of different resources there that are free to download, if if any of your listeners are interested.

Philip Pape 46:32

Excellent. And I know they will be interested as well. I'm going to go download some of those. And I'm going to make sure to add those links to the show notes so everyone can find you, Alison, it really was a pleasure. I think you're helping so many women up their game with regards to taking control their health during this exciting new phase. It's exciting, positive phase of life, and I'm grateful that you took the time to come on today.

Alison Bladh 46:54

Now it's a pleasure. It's been lovely talking to you, Philip. Thank you.

Philip Pape 46:59

Thanks for listening to the show. Before you go, I have a quick favor to ask. If you enjoy the podcast, let me know by leaving a five star review in Apple podcasts and telling others about the show. Thanks again for joining me Philip Pape in this episode of Wits & Weights. I'll see you next time and stay strong.

Philip Pape 1/31/23 Philip Pape 1/31/23

Ep 43: Lose Fat and Feel Great Using Mindset, Consistency, Endurance Training, and Longevity (Coaches Roundtable)

This is a coaches roundtable with 5 amazing people in my inner circle—whom I would consider friends at this point—who are making an impact on peoples’ lives—both active and aspiring nutrition coaches and personal trainers.

These incredible women and men each have a unique perspective on health and fitness and agreed to come together despite being in different timezones all around the world, to share their experience and expertise to help you thrive and achieve physical self-mastery.

After all, that is the mission of this podcast and why I’m constantly looking to bring on experts who share that mission, even if we use different paths to get there.

We will be covering nutrition and training, women’s health navigating social situations, tracking your food, endurance sports and ultra-running, how to be more consistent, and longevity, just to name a few.

Topics discussed in this episode:

Managing stress and "getting out of your head" to achieve your goals
How to navigate social situations and still enjoy your lifestyle
Setting up your environment and support structure for success
Why tracking your food can be helpful
Ultra-running training and fueling your endurance training and events
Celebrate the small wins and focus on consistency more than intensity or volume
How to "peacefully" achieve and sustain your fitness goals
Healthy from a longevity perspective: unique health hacks
The importance of nutrition vs. training

RELATED LINKS

Find Elaine Tarbell at https://www.facebook.com/TarbellsBarbells (mention WITSANDWEIGHTS to get a free in-person training consultation)
Find Michele Moe at moestronger.com (click BOOK CONSULTATION for a free strategy call)
Find Aaron Cartridge at his website to get a free Train for Your First Ultra guide
Find Michele Clark on Instagram - @minutri_michele
Watch the episode on video here

🎙️ ABOUT THE SHOW
At Wits & Weights, we help you achieve optimal health that fits your lifestyle—without excessive dieting, cardio, or food restrictions. Philip Pape, podcast host and head nutrition coach, helps high-achieving people use their wits to build their body, reclaim their time, and gain control over food through one-on-one nutrition and lifestyle coaching at witsandweights.com.

👉 Just go to witsandweights.com/coaching to connect with me.
👥 To join our Facebook community for live training, free guides, free challenges, and more, just click here.

🙋‍♀️ HOW TO ASK A QUESTION FOR THE SHOW

👉 If you have any questions, just click here.

👨‍💻 HOSTED BY

Philip Pape of Wits & Weights (Instagram 👉 @witsandweights)

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Transcript

Philip Pape 00:08

Welcome to the Wits & Weights podcast, where we discuss getting strong and healthy with strength training and sustainable nutrition. I'm your host, Philip Pape. And in each episode, we examine strategies to help you achieve physical self mastery through a healthy skepticism of the fitness industry, and a commitment to consistent nutrition and training for sustainable results. Welcome to another episode of Wits & Weights today, the first for the show, because we're doing a coach's roundtable with five other amazing people in my inner circle whom I would consider friends at this point, and they are out there making an impact in people's lives. These incredible men and women include active and aspiring nutrition coaches, and personal trainers. And each of them has a unique perspective on health and fitness. They agreed to come together despite being in different time zones. We've got folks in the morning in the evening, the middle of the day, all around the world. And they're going to share their experience and expertise to help you thrive and achieve physical self mastery. After all, that's the mission of this podcast is why I'm constantly looking to bring on experts like these who share that mission. Even if we use different paths to get there. We'll be covering nutrition training, women's health, navigating social situations, tracking your food, endurance sports and ultra running, how to be more consistent and longevity, just to name a few assuming we get to all of those. Without further ado, let me introduce everyone, and then we're going to dive into the questions. So I want to give each coach a chance to kind of take the floor starting with Elaine Tarbell and Elaine, how're you doing?

Elaine Tarbell 01:44

Good, thank you.

Philip Pape 01:46

So Elena's from Oskaloosa ah knew I'd get it wrong. It's near Des Moines, Des Moines, Iowa. It

Elaine Tarbell 01:52

is near Des Moines. Yep. Okay.

Philip Pape 01:54

Oskaloosa, Iowa. She's a personal trainer, gym owner of tar Bell's barbells. Gotta love the name. And she's a nutrition coach. Elaine uses her experiences and knowledge to help other women achieve their goals in a kind and compassionate way. And she specializes in women's health, both nutrition and weight training. So again, Elaine, thank you for being on the show. Yeah, thank

Elaine Tarbell 02:14

you very much, fellas, I'm very excited to be here.

Philip Pape 02:17

And so am I it's gonna be a fun conversation. Moving on this there's six of us, but I don't have to introduce myself. So we're going to next go to Michele Moe. And I might be calling her Moe during this conversation because we actually have two Michele's with me on the call today. Michele is from Charlotte, North Carolina. She's the owner and head coach of Moe stronger nutrition and fitness. They teach people how to eat foods they love, lose weight, Feel Great maintain it for life, and she helps people navigate the aging process with positive results. Michele, I appreciate you for coming on the show.

Michele Moe 02:49

Thank you so much. I'm glad to be here.

Philip Pape 02:52

All right, our third coach today is Erin cartridge from Brisbane, Queensland, Australia In Australia, right. Erin is a nutrition coach with a passion for endurance sports. He helps aspiring ultra runners sift through misinformation in the sport and maximize their performance. Air man's pleasure to have you on.

Aaron Cartridge 03:11

Good to finally have a conversation and thanks for having me.

Philip Pape 03:15

Awesome. And maybe we'll have a chance to talk about all those lives you've been doing on Facebook. All right, next up is Michele Clark, who currently lives in Florida but she's originally from Brazil. She's a fitness and nutrition specialist helping women of all walks of life to learn how to nutritiously and peacefully achieve and sustain their fitness goals. I want to say that peacefully because it already is calming me down. Michele, I'm so glad you were able to come on the show as well.

Michele Clark 03:42

Yeah, absolutely. Thank you so much for having me.

Philip Pape 03:46

Awesome. Now it's gonna be great. And then let's get to our final coach of the evening or the morning. Last but not least is JC from Inverness in the Highlands of Scotland which I understand is is the the mouth of the river that's connected to Loch Ness that we all know about right

Philip Pape 04:09

to share we're just give them a wave. There you go man and JC may even show off his attire for you at some point if you're watching the video we'll see. Some people are like what are you talking about? You'll see just think Scotland you know what I'm talking about. So, alright, so JC is a health longevity and nutrition student who dabbles in biohacking and holistic healing. He explores why in our ever ever developing world were going backward in terms of mental and physical health and he helps people with their longevity goals. JC thank you for coming on. That's me. It's good to be here man.

JC 04:43

Good to finally meet y'all.

Philip Pape 04:46

This has been fun. We had a whole conversation before recording this and I think people listening are gonna get a ton from this because every single one of us is so unique. We also have a different different to bring to the the nutrition space and we're chatting all The time and helping each other help our clients. So that's how we grow. I'm going to start with a lane with the first question. And we'll give everybody a chance with, with at least one question to start. And then we can just kind of go back and forth. A lane I understand most of most of your clients, they have stressful lives, right? They struggle to get out of the mental space, get out of their heads. And I'm sure there's a lot of people listening, who are also stressed out, how can people take care of themselves? How can they build that confidence to achieve their goals?

Elaine Tarbell 05:29

Yeah, that's a really good question. Actually. I think just kind of reiterating what you said, people, it especially women, they're so used to taking care, like, if you have children, they're so used to taking care of their children and meeting everybody else's needs. There's a lot of people pleasing, women are kind of ingrained to take care of everybody else before it's taking care of themselves. So when it comes time to taking care of themselves, there's a identity crisis. There's like this, I don't know how to do that. And, you know, when you become an adult, you don't have parents to tell you how to do those things anymore. So a lot of times, I feel like in coaching women, there's a lot of like, I have to almost be their mother in a way like, Well, did you go outside and go for a walk? Did you eat breakfast?

Elaine Tarbell 06:14

Did you drink any water today?

Elaine Tarbell 06:15

Like, have you done the basics? And sometimes we're like, Oh, yeah. And it's it, you know, sometimes we get so stuck up here. And we're overthinking the process, we think we've got to do this 90 Day Fix, we've got to do this cleanses, detox, there's all this, you know, social media bullshit, or we let go.

Philip Pape 06:40

Threshold we're good. Just certain words, you know,

Elaine Tarbell 06:43

there is so much crap out there that is being shoved down our throats, and we have to be a size zero. And we have to be able to get the kids this nutritious lead perfect meal all the time. And meanwhile, we're neglecting ourselves. So sometimes it's just a matter of coming in and just saying, Hey, are you getting those basic needs met? Because if you're not, then we need to start there.

Philip Pape 07:09

You know, the thing he mentioned at the beginning resonated with me how people are missing the parent figure. And that's what they need. I mean, how often do we even reach out to somebody who is close in our lives, who isn't even our parent for support, I probably rarely happens. And you can be that person for them. Right? You can be someone that they don't have an emotional attachment to. And, you know, I know, I look at it as I can mansplain and get away with it with my clients, because they're asking for help. They're asking for information, you know, so what are your thoughts on on that?

Elaine Tarbell 07:41

Yeah, no, I, I, I actually kind of had this, I guess, you know, like, I'm one of my walks, I had this conversation with myself about it, like, I don't, I didn't have parents that were there to guide and instruct me, they were just sort of like living in the moment. And they've, you know, they've, they've not been good role models, I guess you could say, and when I became a parent, it was my absolute determination to be a better mother than what I had experienced. And I have found that in my own struggles, I, you know, there's times where I still grieve that loss of a parent, not just because maybe they're not here on this earth is neither here nor there at this point, but just that emotional connection to someone that would guide me to becoming a better person and having that deep desire within myself. And seeing so many people are disconnected from who they are. And from having someone to look up to. I just Yeah, I feel like coaching is very similar to being a parent, you have to set boundaries and expectations. And you don't have like this, like you have to meet this expectation, but you have to have some kind of an expectation for for your clients. And they have to be able to willingly reach for that in order to feel like they can make some kind of gain and success not just physically obviously because we're all here to help people achieve some kind of physical fitness but also to achieve some kind of mindset and mental growth.

Philip Pape 09:16

Yeah, and isn't that such a huge part of this, but for a lot of people it is about mindset, and consistency and accountability. Cool. So the format of this show today's is a little awkward because I'm gonna tend to jump from person to person instead of the continue on that flow because I could probably ask you 10 More questions. That lane but we'll come back to it. I'm sure you're okay getting the spotlight. But you know, if anything resonates with anybody that's really strong, just jump in, even if it is in this first round. If you want to comment,

Michele Clark 09:45

I do. There's something that I want to add to that. In a nutshell, where Elena was saying, usually what I tell my my clients, especially parents, I always tell them, you can pour from an empty cup, right so You cannot teach you cannot lead unless you're doing it we lead by example. So we have to be the role model so that we and that's how we influence people, right? It's not by telling them, I can tell you for sure. It's not by telling them you got to do. In coaching, obviously, it's a little different. But we, but we also do what we preach, right? So, we are influencing. So yeah, we cannot pour from an empty cup. That's all I wanted to say.

Philip Pape 10:29

That's great. Until you find that being a coach is its own form of accountability. Absolutely. Oh, yeah. It almost makes it I don't want to say makes it makes the whole thing easier, but you just have dozens or hundreds of followers online or whoever's following you, holding you accountable. And you've got to act apart. Absolutely. Everybody who's listening, you know, maybe they want to become a coach. Okay, so I'm gonna move on to moe Michelle, how you doing?

Michele Moe 10:54

Hello. That was great. I just want to say to Elaine answer that very well. You know, one thing I may just add, right before, just before you ask me, what you're gonna ask me sorry, is, you know, it's how we talk to ourselves. Sometimes, too. I think it's easy to talk to ourselves in a different way in our head than we would maybe a friend to make that shift toward the way we speak to ourselves in light of our weight loss or what what we're doing toward our goals, I think, to make that shift, and it takes time it it takes practice, to get to that point where you tell yourself that you can achieve these things.

Elaine Tarbell 11:34

Yeah, yeah.

Philip Pape 11:35

Yeah. For sure. Now we can we can continue on that Mo. If you want. We can. No, no, that's so yeah. I mean, there are a lot of little situations we're going to cover here that I think the listener be curious about how to deal with and one of those a common struggle that, that you've talked about is navigating social situations. Right? And how do you help clients enjoy their lifestyle? Right? Because that's, we talk about that all the time, especially we came up through NCI, we talk about periodization, we talk about sustainability, and not restricting and all of those, so how do you help people enjoy their lifestyle? Yet, you know, they still have to achieve this goal. That's going to take some hard work and some change.

Michele Moe 12:16

Okay, funny you asked that, because because I just did a whole video on that the other day, a couple of things I do. First of all, I have the client, look at the situation, the holiday, the barbecue, party, whatever they're going to what are you going there for? Well, you're going there to enjoy family, friends, the event, you're not going there for the food or drink. That shouldn't be why you go, you're not going to say Oh, I can't wait to go there and get drunk or eat like an asshole. You know, that's not the point. You're going there to enjoy family friends, go to the beach vacation. So keep that in mind when you go there. It's not about the food, the food's a benefit, but that's not why you're there, go there and enjoy the people. Okay, the food is great. Second thing I would say is, so the first thing was just don't make it about the food. The other thing is, don't make every day, any event, a special event every day every week. There's holidays, there's anniversaries, there's birthdays, there's your kids soccer tournament, whatever it is, we have these things throughout every year, we all have maybe one a month, maybe two a month. But in the whole scheme of things, this shouldn't be your everyday life. Everyday can be a celebration. And then the third thing I would say so keep it in moderation. Don't make every day like Wednesday night. Oh, great. Let's have some wine. It's Wednesday. That can't be a thing if you're trying to lose weight, right. So the other thing is, I would plan it. Think about these things. You don't end up somewhere saying whoopsie I ended up at a barbecue now I have to eat and drink. No, you know these things are coming. So just plan it and let's plan it with your coach. Let's work toward that and say, Oh, I have this thing coming up. How can we work through it? How can we come up with a plan to where you can still go and enjoy it and still meet your goals? Because you shouldn't go there with guilt. You shouldn't go say Oh, I just ate and drank some things I shouldn't. Or let's take that as an untracked meal. There's nothing wrong with one untracked meal in a week one untracked meal out of the whole week will not blow your plan and your goals.

Philip Pape 14:28

Yeah when on track plan below, like you're saying true true.

Michele Moe 14:31

Eat like it's your last meal on Earth. I really love to but those aren't. Exactly well that's another point is eat before you go I'm the kind of that I'll be sitting in the car and we might be going to any event where there's going to be food and I'm eating food in the car on the way there. My husband's like you're crazy, but I'm over there eating my protein bar or my turkey wrap or whatever it is because I live that day. So I'm starving. And then I want to eat everything in sight also. And one more tip. So I'm sorry, I have a lot of tips on this. Don't sit near the buffet, get a plate, put food on a plate and go sit down and eat what's on your plate. Don't sit there and graze. Because if you sit there and you're going to talk to your friends and you're at the buffet, you're just going to sit and eat all night, get a play, and that's what you're going to eat. And then if you want more, you, you're forced to go back and get more food.

Philip Pape 15:29

Yeah, those are awesome tips. I like the second one you mentioned. I don't hear that talked about a lot. The fact that we always say, well, you're going out for the weekend. So you need to plan but why does the weekend every day every week have to be this special thing? I mean, you can have a routine weekend hanging out at home or, you know, whatever. But

Michele Moe 15:47

I like to use with a client is don't let don't let your weekend be your weekend. WTE ik don't let your weekend be your week. And oh, yeah.

Michele Clark 16:00

Oh, clever.

Philip Pape 16:01

That's a good one. All right, cool. So let's, that's a great point and move to the next. Next victim here, Aaron. So we've all got it, we've got it, we've got the screens ordered, and everything. So if people are on video, they know who's next are watching the video. Erin, you're you're on the endurance, endurance and ultra RAM, which is not something I'm familiar with at all I've I've run in my life, and I once train for a half marathon, and it's as far as I got was training for it. It's good, you know, except for a few obstacle course races. But I do have a lot of respect for something like an ultra marathon because of its scope and ambition and the amount of training you have to do you know, it's not just distance. It's a massive amount of distance and all sorts of planning that goes behind that. So what is involved in training for an ultra? Is it just lots and lots of cardio? Or is there more to it than that?

Aaron Cartridge 16:56

Definitely more to it than that. But that doesn't take away from the fact that there is lots and lots of cardio. So for example, if you're, if you know you're going to do a run, and you're going to be on your feet for 12 to 36 hours, there's no, there's no compromise, you have to condition your body, you have to condition your ankles and your feet, your back and everything. And the only way to do that is to train on the terrain that you're going to be, you know, racing on. So yes, you definitely, you can't get away from the fact that you need to spend a lot of time on feast during the morning during the cardio. But I think a lot of traditional training plans, they overlook the importance of strength training as well. So, I know, looking at my my history when I did 100k back in 2019 I definitely overlooked the strength training. And when I finished a month or two laser hadn't stopped training so much and my body was just broken. Because all I've done all I've done was so my alarms going off. Something to wake up

Aaron Cartridge 18:10

with was the thing and I just hadn't really worried about bulletproofing my body and getting that structure super strong. So yeah, it definitely it definitely made me reflect and train differently moving forward. So core work, anything that helps you get up those hills faster, but also as bulletproof as the body is, is definitely necessary.

Philip Pape 18:37

And you mentioned I like like how you mentioned I guess the specificity of training right training within the terrain but also strengthening extremities and joints in areas like maybe your calf muscles or ankles and things is that does that come with the the training itself on the terrain? Or is that do you also do special strength training movements for those you know, isolation areas? Are those joint areas?

Aaron Cartridge 19:03

Yeah, look, I really like unilateral training anything that because some people a lot of people recommended Okay, well you do your lunges, do your will do squats and deadlifts. You know for a few groups on the trail when you're running, you're never stood on two feet. So I really like any stability work and anything that's unilateral. Quite explosive training. So you're going from left to right. Yeah, anything that gets you to jump. But then also it's important then just to think full body anything that's rather than isolation. I think that if you are limited the time you're better off doing full body work and make sense and unilateral stuff.

Philip Pape 19:45

Cool. Yeah. So like, bilateral stuff might be focusing on the hamstrings focusing on the the quads and the calves right, but unilateral might be what step ups and lunges and whatever Every month, let's

Aaron Cartridge 20:01

see is only focusing on the same muscle groups. But rather than doing is a deadlift, doing a single leg deadlift, so you're holding weight on one side, saying with your same with your squat. So if you hold a heavy kettlebell and your left hand, and do a squat, it's all about that stability and getting you're, you know, looking for any weaknesses. And then you're really focused in finding those weaknesses and focusing on improving those things. When you're fatigued as if you've been on the trail for 10 hours, and you've still got another two or three hours to go, you can bet that those weaknesses as well will definitely sneak up and make you wish you'd

Michele Clark 20:48

like thinking about it.

Elaine Tarbell 20:51

Sounds kind of fun.

Aaron Cartridge 20:54

Definitely. It's a mental game. I think this is what drives a lot of people to the trail running, and especially the endurance efforts, because, you know, most people aren't trying to break any records, you have some crazy elites, and they're doing these things like, you know, just incredible sort of times, but the vast majority of people who are the age group that like the highest performing age group, typically for these ones are 40 Plus, like 40 to 50. Because it's a lot of people, ex athletes, and they done the explosive stuff. But now they realize that they can slow everything down, and just competing against itself. Because yes, there's that mindset mind game of knowing that you've just got to push on planning every step planning, you know what you have for the next checkpoint? How much water you're going to drink, how much food you're going to drink? What are you going to do when your body starts saying, we probably shouldn't push on anymore? Like, how would you control your thoughts? So there's a lot more to it than cardio, cardio cardio?

Philip Pape 21:57

Night. So you're obviously the expert in this. And we're going to come back to that because I want to cover some other things like, like you mentioned, fueling and nutrition. And also, maybe you alluded to overtraining, and some things people can consider, you know, because you're the man stalks about that. So, maybe even touch on like, what, what it makes sense for a beginner who's getting into it, versus like you mentioned some of these ex athletes. So I want to move on to Thanks, man. Thanks, Aaron. We're gonna move on to Michelle, the other Michelle, Michelle Clark, how are you doing?

Michele Clark 22:26

Good, catching my breath after all this, this marathon talk?

Philip Pape 22:32

Yeah, it can be intimidating. You know, I talk about lifting weights as being this amazing thing. And it's just in reality, I don't want to be doing that. So now, talk about we're gonna get into mindset, again, which is a common recurring theme, when it comes to anybody who's listening who's trying to improve their health improve their fitness, your big focus is on consistency, more than intensity or quantity volume. Tell us about your approach to celebrating the small wins.

Michele Clark 23:03

So So yeah, I am you're right, I am big on like doing it, right. I always say that, Don was always will always be better than perfect or not done, right. So what I, what I try to coach my clients on is on just doing it, you know, just get yourself started. Don't overthink it, don't you know, don't don't worry about how long it's gonna take, not only in terms of what they're doing, like the exercise itself, but also how long it's going to take for them to achieve their goals. Don't worry how well you're going to perform, you know, intensity, none of that, because I think that the majority of people based on my experience, and actually, I'm speaking from my own experience, not only the people that I work with, but also my own experience. I think that when we overthink and try to plan too much, although planning is very, very important. But I think that the first step is just getting started in creating that consistency, right? So again, what I try to tell them is like, Okay, you need to start walking more, right, we need to start increasing your, the amount of steps you take daily. So we're going to start with five minutes, you just have to go you just get your sneakers on and just, you know, just go don't worry if it's going to take five minutes because what I what I see is like, sometimes we won't do it. They won't do it because it's like, oh, I don't have an hour to go for a walk right or to get on the treadmill. But you don't need an hour. You just need to create the consistency because if you go five minutes, you're gonna see that you're gonna end up doing it for 10 You know, you're gonna do it for 15 for 20 And if you really don't have the time that's okay, you still go for only the 510 minutes that you have, and and work on the cars See, and then we're going to worry about the time. So that's what I do when it comes to moving more, right. And the same goes for food, I always tell my clients to focus on the next meal, right. So like the meal that's that they you're gonna have next. So if you're wake up in the morning, you your focus has to be you have to be focused on your breakfast, do the best you can with your breakfast, right? I was going to say, Don't worry about your lunch, but you do have to worry about it. Because there is some we know that planning is needed, right? You can just, you can you know, the clock can hit 1212 o'clock, and you're like, oh shit, what am I gonna eat? Right? So we do need planning, but I I, I take more the approach of taking baby steps, right? So focus on breakfast, do a good job with breakfast and celebrate that celebrate the fact that you had your protein, right, that you didn't loaded yourself up with refined sugar or, you know, simple carbs, do that, get that out of the way. And then you think of lunch, right? And so on, and your snacks and all that. And I find that that really works, you know, when and I tell them and if you struggle with it, you know, if it's like 10 o'clock, and you're already struggling? I? So I don't know if that's a good thing, but I have I am very easily accessible to my clients so they can reach out to me and be like, Oh my God, I don't know what I'm gonna do for lunch. And I'm like, okay, all right, take a deep breath. And let's get that out. You know, let's let's focus on that. Don't worry. I don't know what I'm gonna have for dinner. Mike. Wait, but what did you do for lunch?

Philip Pape 26:40

Yeah, so I mean, everything you're saying. It's, it's funny, you mentioned planning is important, but also taking actions important, right? Because we do. You know, as coaches, you would love to have this grand plan for the next six months, where everything's mapped out and your workouts are mapped out everything. But that's not reality. And like you said, if, if that gives opens the door to excuses, which is things that we're talking about here, when people say, Well, I don't have running shoes, and I can't take an hour and I can't do this, and I can't do that. It's like, well, you can take five minutes like that is a fact you can do right. So how do you what's practically how do you do that? Or how would somebody listening? Do that? Right? Because it's that initial momentum. I think that that initial motivation, we call it that eventually, you don't require the motivation, right? Somebody do that.

Michele Clark 27:25

To me, it's more like doing it not debating not trying to negotiate with yourself. I feel like every time I try to negotiate with myself, it goes badly. It doesn't go well, you know. So I'm gonna speak my, by my own experience, as all of you now know, I'm expecting so I am now almost, I'm 14 weeks now. But what I was going to say is that the first the first trimester was very challenging for me. And I'm very active, I've been very active. And I have kept a very well balanced diet for the past 12 years, I think. And, and then all of a sudden, I'm feeling nauseous, and I cannot work out or eat the foods, the amount that I'm used to eat, right. And that hit me really hard because I had control over over everything, a lot of planning, you know, and all of a sudden, I'm like, okay, you know, here, here I go, here I am I what am I supposed to do now that I no longer have control? Luckily, it's going away. So things are getting are getting better now. But to answer your question, what I what I have been doing what I did while I was feeling very, you know, nauseated, in what I'm starting to do now, I don't think about it, you know, I'm like, Okay, I don't have an hour to go lift weights. I can't lift yet, because I'm not quite there yet. I'm still not 100% In terms of how I feel, but I'm like, Okay, what is it that I can do? And I don't think about I literally just put my sneakers on and I go for a walk. And sometimes I'm able to go for 20 minutes, sometimes I end up doing it for an hour and a half. You know, but I don't negotiate because the reality is if I do I'll be like ah, but but remember you pregnant you're not feeling so great. Oh, you go later you go tomorrow. And and I find that most of the people that I work with struggle with that, you know, so don't do focus on the on the task at hand. Like just do it. Obviously now for like people that work full time for instance, you have to have some sort of plan, right? You can't just stop and go you have to so so that what I tell them is like okay, oh, I leave the house too early or I come home too late. Right. And then I have husband kids, whatever. What I tell them is what can you do? Can you do it at lunch? How long is your lunch break? Oh, I have an hour lunch. Okay, great. How long does it take for you to eat? Oh, it takes me 15 minutes. Okay, so what do you do with the next 45 minutes that you have? Right? And, and that's when they start to I swear to you, I was off, right? Exactly. I worked with this with this one girl who was doing phenomenal. And she tried to convince me that she had no time. I have no time. And then I started to ask her all these questions. And she's like, okay, yeah, but I wouldn't have time to do this. And then I can go to she doesn't work from home. And she was like, well, but I can't, you know, I can't really go to a gym. Now. I can't afford that. I'm like, Okay, let's focus on why you can do now why you cannot do right. Turns out this, she started walk around in town, she works downtown. So she would eat her lunch. And then she was she would go for walks. And, you know, she found herself walking for 40 minutes when she thought she had no time. Yeah. Go ahead.

Elaine Tarbell 30:54

I was just gonna add, I like to ask people, or at least look at their schedule and see where are the pockets of time? It's off. And even if it's 10 minutes, everybody has 10 minutes somewhere. So

Philip Pape 31:06

yeah, and you probably are spending time on things that you could substitute for other things. Haven't quite realized it yet.

Michele Clark 31:13

And feel it? I don't think I spoke so much. And I don't think I actually answered your question. You talked about celebrating small wins. And then what I tell them is, once you do that, even if it's only five minutes, you celebrate that, you know, you give yourself a little tap in the in the back and you say good job, you did it. You know, five minutes is always gonna be better than then. Than 01 good meal a day, a complete meal, you know, with all your macros, bro protein, good carbs, vegetables will always be better than zero good meals, right? So I encourage them to celebrate all the little tiny wins.

Philip Pape 31:54

I agree. That's super important. Because I've seen clients in our check in early on that. I asked them when their wins, and they're like, I didn't have any wins this week. And then like, okay, that opens the door to some really good I love I love it. I might have, I might have to show you your wins, because you probably have 10 right in your data or your check in right. But it's that shift in mindset and that's there to help with to support them with so maybe the person Listen, people listening. If you struggle with that, we'll hear what Michelle is saying that their wins every day. That can be the smallest thing like you got up you're breathing and you're walking around and enjoying the planet. I mean, it could be anything. Right? Alright, so this is really good stuff. We're getting deep. Let's let's go John or JC has been chomping at the bit right. Last Last but not least, and nervous. Yeah, it would have been your fireplace here. You got too hot yeah, all right. So I'm really glad you came on because your focus is very different in some ways from from us, you know, it's much more toward longevity. Sometimes we'd like to split our goals into things like physique or body composition goals versus say performance versus longevity right living a long life and being optimally healthy and not necessarily chasing some of those other things all the time. And I can always count on you to teach me something I've never heard before because I mean your your group chat where you share all this interesting stuff what's what's your personal routine because I want to start there so that people understand how you live your life right and so we know that you walk the walk and then you know later on we can get into some hacking concepts personal routine for your health and longevity

JC 33:37

personal routine see I could probably go my my daily routine so my daily routine would be a general routine general teens more minimize stress and focus on sleep and family time and move and stretching and stuff but my daily routine I would say sorry I'm sitting on the floor here I'm seeing you Elaine you're moving about to I'm sitting on the floor Yeah, so the morning I usually start off in the morning, cold shower, cold shower in the morning which is st app is a process called a toughie G happens as well when you're going to cold shower so it kind of know if you know that you know about that but it's the process of autophagy is your sales and your body so when you go for a cold shower you get cold and hot therapy and stuff too. And a cold shower basically but the autophagy eliminates all the bad cells in your body and it recycles all the all the cells that are kind of can still there's still something in them you know but they just want us all yourself. So first thing in the morning cold shower. I'm getting my kids into cold showers too that's good fun

Aaron Cartridge 34:45

Scottish winter

JC 34:48

definitely. So a Yeah, we try and do some some grinding in the morning like grinding is a lot easier in the summertime. And just know it's not very you know you don't really fancy you don't say you did mine just to you know the last

Philip Pape 35:02

well explain what grounding is when people

JC 35:08

grounding is basically just getting outside and your bare feet and stand on the grass if you can get in the sand or somewhere good. I was getting to find out that if you stand on the tire because I'd be at work is my day job as an electrician so we lunchtime we sat in the van nice day outside, we're looking like a total idiot to people that don't know me and know what grind it is. And I was I was doing it for ages for the whole year. And then you can't grind on tar on

Philip Pape 35:37

you because because it's gonna scorcher feed off.

JC 35:39

Yeah, well, grinding. Grinding basically the earth is full of different energies. And basically it kind of recharges you. We're never taught this. And we don't know this, but I've looked at quite a few studies and a few scientists talking about it. And But yeah, if anyone's interested in blending look into it, but that's why I'm the middleman you see, because I know a lot, a lot of stuff. A little about a lot, but not a lot about a little you know. Yeah, but grounding is really good. In the mortar I always always hydrate in the morning. So I usually have probably between 507 150 milliwatts or so we have a filter process in our house or hold all our water in the house is filtered as it comes in a top bar. And I've also got a reverse osmosis machine. So normal water for the day, I've put in my stainless steel bottles no BPaaS. So yeah, so I have that in the morning. I have my vitamin C. So I try and have vitamin C three times a day, a sorbic acid so that just boosts the immune system. Whilst I do just try to think I've obviously gotten my meals like you're saying your macros your proteins, prioritize proteins.

Philip Pape 36:48

Your your vitamin C, how much do you take? How many how many teaspoons?

JC 36:52

Probably about half a teaspoon if I'm honest, about half a teaspoon or just two times a day. About three times a day. Yeah, yeah. And that's that keeps the immune system keeps it going. Yeah, it keeps it good. Yeah. Through the day, other supplements I do, I'll try and do some fish oil, some krill oil or something like that depends because it's quite expensive for the good stuff. And I'll also do I'll always do my sorry, my main systems, magnesium. Magnesium is good. So you need magnesium. Yeah, I've I've actually read some really cool studies. And there's a guy, Clive to Carl. He's a really cool guy. He had the chronic joint pain and stuff at 30. And he was in hospital, trying to give them all this medicines anyway, your mom basically long, long story short, he cured himself with magnesium, high doses of magnesium sorted out, it's incredible, incredible. Some of the stuff you know,

Philip Pape 37:40

is just just to take a pause on magnesium, like my wife had massive migraines for years, and she started taking more magnesium and they either have gone away or significantly mitigated. And other people have had sleep issues and take it at bedtime and help someone sleep. So you're right. It's pretty great mineral that we're lacking.

Aaron Cartridge 37:59

Magnesium, I think I think we can all agree with the ultra running.

Philip Pape 38:04

We don't agree with everything else JC but the magnesium actually, you know, it's funny,

Michele Clark 38:11

another cold shower.

Philip Pape 38:15

I mean, all of a sudden you're saying I've heard you right? You're getting cold showers. There's definitely plenty of studies to say there's there's good stuff there like saunas and other. So here's the thing, I actually do want to ask you this follow up question because just like what the conventional nutrition folks cover, it can be overwhelming for people at first, right? It's like, oh, I have to only do these 15 different things to have a good healthy life. Similar with your stuff, you know, I even think that like, am I going to do cold showers I'm gonna do this and that the other what's like the top one or two things that somebody would focus on and want to prioritize sleep,

JC 38:49

sleep all day sleep and stress. That's the two that make an assistant I'm trying to put together just now it was like a jigsaw. Imagine a big jigsaw. And our health was that jigsaw. But the jigsaw is not like any other Jigsaw that's got small parts that all come together. There's big parts and the small parts, and you need them all for optimal health. And like you said, it's funny you said two because it's always the two for me is stress. Sleep.

Philip Pape 39:11

Yeah. And that's, that's the one that always gets like short shrift, right? When we talk, okay, any training, any walking, you need food. And by the way, nice restful sleep like not that we all necessarily message it that way. But I think it's often received that way, at least in my opinion. And even today, sleep is something I struggle with. And I know I should prioritize it more than I do, because it's gonna help everything else. So cool. All right. Well, we're gonna, yeah,

JC 39:35

so the, I think Elaine nailed earlier on as well. She said about the pressures for women nowadays, you know, to be a size 11 stuff. I think there's a pressure for everybody. And there's a pressure for us to make more money and work more hours and there's pressures from all in so I think, on that basis, sleep kind of does take a backseat and stress is obviously heightened because you're spending less time with your family. I mean, we're here live, you know, your work to live not live to work and the world's changing a lot. I mean, if you look like 4050 years ago, and not a chauvinist, we would say like a man would work. And a woman would say, I'm not in that at all. But I mean, like, one parent would work and one parent would look after the children, and that one parent could afford everything, you know, they could afford holidays, you got a good lifestyle. But nowadays, kids are all shunned off to be serious and whatnot, and we're not living enough, you know, and I think that's a major problem today. But that's another story. You know,

Philip Pape 40:25

I bet you resonate with a lot of people are listening to it. Yeah, there's just, it's a matter of change. I mean, you sleep stress. We all have a lot of stress, especially as we're probably somewhat edging on workaholics, as coaches, right. But sleep is a huge mitigator of that. I know what I have, like, an extra half hour sleep when I get up in the morning. I'm ready for the next half day to get stuff done. Right. And it's a mitigator. So all right, really cool. I see. We're really filling in the time well, here. And I want to get back to some other topics. This is awesome. You know, we're gonna maybe in the future, we'll peel off and have a couple couple at a time. You know, this is great. So I guess back to Elaine, we want let's talk. We've touched on nutrition a little bit, you're a personal trainer, right? But you're also training your nutrition coaching cert? Why is nutrition important? You and your clients? You know, how do you help them achieve their goals there and kind of the merging between personal training and nutrition?

Elaine Tarbell 41:23

Oh, that's a good question. Because sometimes it's really hard, you know, when I'm training, or I'm hired as just a personal trainer, and we're talking food, food, and like, I have this one client, and she fast all day. And then dinnertime kids game on. And I looked at it, I was like, How long have you been doing this? And she was like, several years, like, five, six years, I was like, I don't know what to say like, I'm just kind of shocked, like, I mean, and I said, Well, I mean, studies show that's actually really not very supportive for your metabolism. And if you're hiring me to personal training her goal, you know, everybody has their goals. And her goal was to have runner's legs without running it. So I just said, you know, if we're going to be going through this process, I need you to understand that you're going to have to have some form of energy when you come into, into training with me. So if you're going to train like an athlete, you also have to eat like an F. So you have to have things for recovery, you have to have foods for energy. And you have to also think about like, if you are a woman or even a man, you have hormones that play into effect as to how conditioning is going to affect and nutrition is going to affect all that. So I don't try to ever cross the line unless it's being asked if someone wants to directly ask me, I will directly answer. If they're hiring me for both. I do have one client that she is, she works with my husband for personal training, but then I trained her nutritionally. And so there are times where I will, like this is kind of a funny thing. But I remember going to my husband, and I'm like, Okay, so I'm gonna call her Mary, Mary is starting her cut. So I need you to back off on some of her her cardio type. I don't want to putting her under too much stress, like keep pushing the weight. But please take away some of the some of the added stuff, right? And he didn't, he didn't listen to me.

Elaine Tarbell 43:39

He forgot. So a few weeks later, a few weeks later, are checking

Elaine Tarbell 43:42

in with her. I'm like, How are things go? It's just like, I was so tired. And I just don't have any energy. And I'm just like, what's going on? I pulled them aside. I was like, why didn't you? You know, and I just kind of so it's kind of the fun part about returning with my husband and having that duality, I guess. When he's, he's got one, we have the same client, but we're meeting their needs differently. And that's where communication is huge. When it comes to training a client both in the gym and in nutrition. I find it's probably easier to do both. If you have like, if you have a client and you're able to program both things for them, it's probably a lot easier than or at least knowing what their training program was going to look like which in this situation. I wasn't. I had no I had communicated.

Philip Pape 44:37

Yeah, I hear what you're saying. Right? Because a lot of there's personal trainers, nutrition coaches, you don't often see it packaged together, but what you do, and I know in my case, a lot of personal trainers, it's like the opposite. And I can't control what they're doing with them. I try to coach them on that as best I can. But that's cool. So maybe Moe let's let's go into nutrition a bit. You talked about Some other hacks or practices, I should say, I want to call the hacks, practices like setting up your environment for success, right? Or, and tracking your food, things like that, how important are are doing those things, setting up your environment, from a planning purpose, and also the tracking food.

Michele Moe 45:18

I would say they're very important. I would love to hear what others think after I say why it's important. But first of all, setting up your environment. If you don't, if you if you have weight, you want to lose, and you've tried everything and you haven't had the success you want. It might be time to change your environment. What I mean by that is change, you might have to change who you hang around with. And let's go back to the social things you asked me about. You may have to say no to girls brunch, every Sunday, or whatever that looks like for you. Maybe that can't work for a time. And I guess I think of clients that had in the past where maybe they go to their parents house every week. First of all, for a dinner, Sunday dinner, their parents aren't on board with their weight loss. So they don't make foods that they can eat. Well, hang on, sorry, something just popped up on the screen.

Michele Clark 46:19

Oh, that was mean.

Michele Moe 46:24

I couldn't see anything for a second.

Michele Clark 46:27

The dog barking.

Michele Moe 46:31

So what what that looks like is sometimes you may just have to say to your friends, family. Look, this is something I'm doing for me and for my health. And this is important to me right now. So I need you to support me, I need you to be on board when I have to say no to the extra drink. Or when I can't go out to have wine night with you. Or when I can't go out to eat three days a week, I can only go out one day a week, that goes for your spouse too. So it's kind of I liken it to somebody who let's say somebody has alcohol issue in their past and they're trying to overcome that, let's say they're sober now, they can't go hang out at bars, that's just not a good place for them to go. Say when it comes to your weight loss in your food, you have to surround yourself with a positive environment, and people that will support you. And you have to set yourself up for success with your with with the food you buy the food you prep and plan and where you hang out and what you choose to do. Now that might just be for a short time during say a weight loss or fat loss phase. And those things may or may come back in the mix. I always like to say that up front and say, Okay, this might just be for a short time where you have to say no to some things, let's get in the diet and get out as fast as we can. So that time is not prolonged. Once we're done, we can add those back in. But that's kind of what I mean by set yourself up for success. It's, it's going to be really hard if you have a spouse who's not on board, that's the biggest one is let's make sure your spouse is on board with this or whoever you live with. Because if you're the one cooking food, it can be done. I have clients who they're in charge of they have to cook food for their spouse, their kids, their grandkids, whoever else lives with them, but yet they can still stay on track. So it goes back to the first thing you asked Elaine about mindset is you have to make that mindset shift. I'm gonna do this for me. This is important for me right now for my health.

Philip Pape 48:28

Yeah, no, absolutely. And I want to make a distinction with people between restricting or abstaining from what were you talked about, which is understanding your own personal triggers, or your own personal things that tempt you or whatever the phrase you want to use, and just taking control in advance and being proactive with your environment. It's not saying no, I can't do this. No, I can't that do that. It's just making the giving you a easier path to avoiding those things, and setting guidelines for yourself. So I'm sure sure we can all agree with that. So thanks Moe these are these are awesome tips. And I like that you talked about people as well as part of your environment, because that is super important. Yeah, go ahead and

Michele Clark 49:08

quickly add something to what Michele to Michele's point, I find that he also depends on where people are on in their journey, right. Because usually beginners, it's really, really difficult. So I personally try to focus more like trying to teach them on how to mitigate the damage. Does that make sense? Like so it's not, you know, even if they, they drink they eat more than they should at least I try to focus on like, Okay, here's what you can do, too. So it's not too too bad, right? So you don't you don't get off your plan so miserably that you're gonna feel like shit afterwards. Right? But I find that with people they're a little more advanced. I feel that that comes with time, right? You don't need to like it's easier. Because they they know what to do. They're a little bit better about about being more selective, right? I think you guys would agree I have, I actually have this, this dis two people that I talked to yesterday, my coaches and one of the girls, she's like, way more advanced, you know, she she has seen some amazing results. And so when we're talking about the holidays, she was like, Yeah, you know, it was a little challenging. And isn't that I had some moments where, you know, I ate more dessert or I skipped meals, whatever. But it was far less than someone else that I had. It's a beginner, right, they struggled a lot more. So yeah, I think it's like, for me, I find it's very, it depends really on where each person is. You have to kind of

Philip Pape 50:55

meet them where they're at.

Michele Moe 51:00

I think you're right, Michelle, I think some people are when might look like having pizza one night, but just having one slice, right? People might look like the wind is no pizza at all. It depends on people, relatives. Yeah, absolutely. And it depends on that journey. You're right, how far along? Are they? What are those things? Some people can have a little bit of a cheat meal and not go overboard? Some can have any without going off the rails? Absolutely. Exactly.

Philip Pape 51:27

So switching topics again, I know we have, I don't know if anybody has a hard stop in seven minutes. We can always go a little past but let me know in the chat, but we're gonna move back to Aaron. So Aaron, the ultra stuff, preparing for an ultra whatnot? Should do people need to have all their other ducks in a row here that we've been talking about before they do to Ultra? Or can they kind of start slow, you know, take baby steps and work toward it, maybe with some sort of smaller race. And then and then use your process, whatever it is like your your fueling and training process.

Aaron Cartridge 52:00

I think that's typically Yeah, that's typically what most people would do. They dip their toe in, do a, you know, few 10k races. And then they sit down with coffee with a few other like minded people and somebody actually my journey into an ultra I was doing a Spartan Race, I was in a 7k Spartan Race with with my wife and a friend. And I just had these two guys talking about doing the Ultra. Ooh, and Ultra. That sounds cool. What's that? And that was my inspiration or moment to decide to become an ultra runner. But yeah, for sure, it's definitely something that you would build up to.

Philip Pape 52:42

Alright, so we're back on the show, we had to edit a little bit of it out. Aaron was talking about Ultra races, I think we lost one of our coaches due to a network issue. Because you know, Scotland internet, maybe not as reliable. We'll see if he comes back. And Aaron, you were talking about working your way up to an ultra? You know, what, like, what would be the first race? So a guy like me? Well, I'm a little bit a little bit fit, but somebody who's maybe not even into fitness at all, versus somebody who's fit? Where would they start? Yeah, so

Aaron Cartridge 53:11

typically, where you would start is you would pick the race. If you wanted to be an ultra typically, it's a 50k. To start with don't order. I'm not sorry, I'm not sure what that is in miles. I've been in Australia too long.

Philip Pape 53:23

It's long, but

Aaron Cartridge 53:25

it's, yeah, it's long. Yeah. So typically, if today is your first Ultra, so if you were to have that on your radar, you would pick the race. And typically I'd say don't travel too far. If you've got one local, pick that one, and then have a depending on your start point, have a good amount of time, up to that race. And then you know, do a couple of races in between. So do a half marathon, build your training plan around it, but definitely have at least a half marathon, maybe a marathon like an easier marathon in between. So that you can experience that race situation and all the nerves and all the planning and and really get a good idea of, of everything that goes into it. And then you'll learn so much every time you learn about yourself a nutrition plan or a training plan. Every time you do.

Philip Pape 54:19

Yeah. And that's a good point, right? Just committing to it kind of like Michelle talks about just taking the first step and that's it, you know, a decent step for somebody to go, Okay, I'm gonna sign up for a you said 50k, which it looks like 31 mile run, which is a little bit more than a marathon. But at least you now are forced to figure all this stuff out. Where so that they get a little bit of a leg ahead. What about the fueling strategy, you know, for food, because to me, that would be the biggest area of uncertainty is how do I prepare, maybe in the weeks days leading up and then the event itself? Just very basics, what what should people consider?

Aaron Cartridge 54:50

Yeah, absolutely. And it's often overlooked, I think a lot of people. There's a bit of a distinction between overtraining and under fueling for all ultra runners, even seasoned runners make the mistakes they take quite often they won't be eating enough. But in those specifically in those days leading up to the day, you you're already consuming, you should already be consuming a high amount of carbohydrates, protein to support. And obviously, you're not fat just to, you know, manage the calorie So all's

Philip Pape 55:29

carbs maybe shouldn't be you shouldn't be losing weight leading up to it

Aaron Cartridge 55:32

shouldn't be losing weight, yes, it definitely should be maintaining the enough not to be losing weight. And if you change that, you see changes in people's faces all the time, and often towards doing these longer distances. And it's, it's definitely affecting the performance. But there is an element of carb loading. But what most people do before a race is they'll have a, like a cool off period, still no taper. So the actual output is dropping anyway. So that calorie means maintain maintenance is yeah, quite often enough. So but most people are people 24 hours before the race or have a very high carb meal. Let's be the go with Pastor, whatever you used to, in my opinion,

Philip Pape 56:21

awesome, Michelle. So we're gonna go slightly past our own a lot of time the people listening love it, they love these epic, hour and a half to three hours, we'll just go three hours now, it won't be much longer. I'm going to hit off Michelle and JC with one more question each. And then we'll wrap it up. So Michelle, we talked about the big the small wins and talks about the like doing something is better than doing nothing. The last thing I wanted to ask you about is part of your mission is to help women peacefully achieve and sustain their fitness goals. So in today's, as we know, from JC stressful world, how do you get centered and find that peace?

Michele Clark 56:57

I think knowledge, I think knowledge is freedom, right? So I really try to focus on teaching my clients. Guess what I'm trying to say is I try to help them understand what they're doing and why they're doing it. So I'm very big on, on sharing knowledge with the race. So here's why you should start your day with protein. You know, here's why you have to move more, here's why you need to prioritize sleep, because I think that it's not even I think this is what I've been seeing working with people, right? They become more compliant, once they understand what they're doing. So and that, to me is you know, in some ways, this will because it's, you know, you know, what you're doing and wants to learn you also were able to, to draw your own strategy. Right to, again, to Michele's point. I'm very big on like, Okay, you understand why you know why and why and why you're doing that. So like, if you're going to say Brazil as you guys probably no, we're be gone on what we call Churrasco which is like a barbecue so it's like red meat where we grill red meat so we have this thing where the knee goes around so I would assume that you guys are familiar with what I'm talking about right now. So that's very common in Brazil for for you know, for people friends families to get together and just grill some meat they will they'll eat meat and have the you know the will though they'll gather to eat it's very very easy to overeat when you do that right because what they do the grill meat and they go around right they'll put the meat the cut up meat that looks extremely delicious on like, like cutting board like a nice wood cutting board and they go around serving people in they love it, you know, like usually someone that's very good at grilling will be doing and they go around with the meat. So what I tell the folks that I work with is make her plate again Michele has touched on that you know make a plate get the amount of meat today you know that you're gonna eat that you need, right that's gonna satisfy you you don't need to eat your face off. You know get your little portion of salad your little whatever rice whatever they have potato salad, you know, make your plate eater plate because that will be enough to keep you full that will be enough, right so and then helping them understand why they shouldn't be you know, peeking on food constantly like munching away is what I find help them to to Um, be compliant. And that to me is peaceful I, when I say peacefully helping them, I mean, I teach them so they understand and they they're able to make their own choices. You know,

Philip Pape 1:00:13

I love that. Yeah. Because the the ignorance leads to stress uncertainty, and all the other things that are not peaceful but as you said, the awareness and knowledge really opens up that door and liberates you. So I love that. So thank you,

Michele Clark 1:00:26

Michelle. Yeah, I

Michele Clark 1:00:27

was just going to say we underestimate the amount of calories and while we do have a little bite of something, and you think, Okay, this is nothing this is this is not going to hurt me. But then, you know, 30 days, back in whatever do the photos after 30 days, and they're super frustrated. They don't understand what happened. I did everything right. Did you?

Philip Pape 1:00:47

Yeah, that's what it is. And their coach can can question them on it. So that's the thing. I think I think the studies show like we underestimate by 50%. And that even professionals, dieticians, nutrition coaches, nutritionists. Even they underestimate by 20 to 30. So it's crazy. All right, so JC Well, let's go to the last thing here, I just want to let you tell us, like one or two things on your mind that maybe you've been learning lately, or we should know, maybe something accessible to people. And I say it that way. Because, again, cold showers, I don't know that everybody would want to jump into that right away. Great thing to do is, you know, something that you've been learning that you think is can make an impact on people that is somewhat accessible in your space?

JC 1:01:31

Well, I'm always learning, always learning different things, chopping into one gene. And then you go online, and you hear one thing and all that. But just now, I mean, you know, in our course, you talk about macros, and we'll be talking about stress. And we talk about sleep. And we've got all these different factors, working out muscle mass stretching, etc. And I think you can do all those things. But there's also external things out with the people don't even think of so I kind of like to look at things a bit different. And just now, my main focus just now I've been I've started a book by Dr. Mercola. It's called EMF. And there's another guy I follow Ben Greenfield, he's in his biohacking. And he talks a lot about EMFs. And you probably hear about me on the on the group chat talking about EMFs. And a lot of people don't know about EMF and so your your, your electric electric fields around you, you know, whether it be your your Wi Fi, or whether it be your Tailee and, and whether it be it's crazy, you know, dirty electricity. So you could be next light fitting and not even realize you're soaking up these these EMFs. And I suppose people were wondering, well, what's what's why is that relative to health, but that causes a lot of inflammation. And depending on what your body can only process a certain amount. And for years and years and years, it was okay people we could we could absorb it, we could get rid of it. And it was fine. Because a lot of free radicals as well, which can cause anxiety and cause fatigue, low libido. And we you know, as coaches, we can work through all the different processes that we know. But there's this other things that could and you might think, what's wrong with them? You know, so this has been my focus lately anyway. EMF circuit myself and EMF meter, because that's one thing seen videos, reading books, but sometimes you really need to know it for yourself. So yeah, I've been going around the house and trying to figure out what's good and what's bad. So I've rewired my house and what's called Cat six cable for it eventually to have no Wi Fi and going old school, you know, and they say even my kids have a big tail on the wall when they're doing the next Xbox. They're jumping about doing the Kinect. And I'm like God, Kelly from the tail, you are getting fried.

Philip Pape 1:03:25

I can't imagine what the microwave puts out.

JC 1:03:33

I mean, this horrendous behavior. Now we're playing with these 5g Towers, and we've got, you know, smart meters and all these things. So it is something that I mean, everyone should look at and the stuff that I've been reading up. I mean, if you think back to I don't know, if it was the 40s or whenever, when when doctors were on adverts going, Yes, smoking is good for you. Yes. You know, I think I think this is going to be the new smoking, you know,

Philip Pape 1:03:56

yeah, I'm always worried about keeping my cell phone in my pocket, you know what I mean? So, you know,

JC 1:04:01

it was actually there's actually something about that. So you used to be on Apple used to be on Apple, and it would actually tell you that you actually not supposed to have your cell phone within six inches of your body at any one time. But now they've made it really hard for you to find out but that's the truth you shouldn't have and what that does is it causes dark spots in your muscles and stuff and actually can stop you from having kids as well it can destroy fertility.

Michele Clark 1:04:25

Say that I never paid attention to that. But since I found out I'm pregnant, I am so careful to not have my phone near my belly and that happened and she like by instinct, you know, I didn't read anything about it. But I used to lay in bed sometimes and I and like I would listen to like, like, whatever like a TED talk a listen to, you know, Wits. & Weights, whatever. And I'll have

Michele Clark 1:04:52

my belly. Did you talk

Michele Clark 1:04:59

well Yeah, and I'll have my I used to have my phone like resting on my legs on my belly. And now I'm like, I don't do it anymore, you know? Yeah.

JC 1:05:09

Well, there's another interesting thing for you, Michelle, there's actually been a direct link with, you know how autism is on the incline, you know, used to be like, when I was a kid, there was maybe one kid in your school had autism. And now, you know, there's probably three in each class. But there's a direct link between EMF exposure and autism.

Philip Pape 1:05:27

So, I mean, this has been like a whirlwind conversation with a lot of different topics that we covered, hopefully, the listener, even though it wasn't, you know, one entire topic got some great value out of it, that people listening, you know, resonated with them, everybody had their own thing, something may have been more relevant to somebody and others, and we covered a lot. So everybody here is obviously dedicated to helping people transform their lives, that is clear. And you know, because we don't want listeners to miss out on connecting with each of you. I want to go around and find out where people can learn about you or, and or your work. So I just want to start with Elaine, where can people find you?

Elaine Tarbell 1:06:05

The best place is to reach out through Facebook and look at tarballs barbells and Oskaloosa, Iowa, and you can just send us a message there and reach out whether you're looking for a training in person or a nutritional needs a good place to go. Cool.

Philip Pape 1:06:19

So Facebook, TarbellsBarbells, you could search it, or you could just type facebook.com/TarbellsBarbells. And you'll get there. Shell mo where can people find you?

Michele Moe 1:06:30

i The best place to find me is on my website most stronger.com I'm on Instagram at most stronger. If they go on my Facebook, I'm sorry, on my website, they can contact me and I'd be happy to get on a call with anybody to talk about their goals and their needs and see if it's a good fit.

Philip Pape 1:06:50

Cool. There we go. So moestronger.com. And I think it's a big pink button book constant consultation, right on the homepage for a free call. Encourage you to do that. And next up we have Aaron Aaron, you're giving something away, right?

Aaron Cartridge 1:07:05

Yeah, so people can find me. Well, I have a free guide to training for your first altra and you can send me an inquiry either find me on Facebook is and cartridge or through PT distinction.com Kairos nutrition AU. All one word is my is my platform right there.

Philip Pape 1:07:29

Awesome. Yep, PT distinction.com says Kairos nutrition au get your train for your first Ultra guide. It's epic. It'll get you started and then Erin can help you with the details beyond that. Michelle Clark, where can people reach you?

Michele Clark 1:07:44

Instagram so that'd be the easiest way I'm there more than I like to admit

Philip Pape 1:07:50

whether we like it or not.

Michele Clark 1:07:54

So I will definitely see it so my Instagram is me for Mitch short for Michelle and my notary for nutrition so when you try I underline Michelle there we

Philip Pape 1:08:09

go at me Nutri underscore Michelle with one L. And again, all this is gonna be in the show notes. Don't worry for people listening. Thank you, Michelle. People definitely reach out to you on Insta and then JC do we want to share anything at this point or you're in

JC 1:08:25

a ghost waiting? I'll say something that they'll say something that probably an Instagram as well set up a profile. Yeah. So I'll let you know Phillip and you can maybe put it with the podcast or something. Oh, we

Philip Pape 1:08:37

will. We will because these these tend to come out like a couple months later. So all good. We'll have time. All right. So I'm going to include everybody's background, every coach's background and contact info in the show notes. So you the listener, the viewer can reach out to them, especially if any one person really resonates with you and your goals. Everyone here can help in some way. You know, not just one on one coaching but just have a conversation, ask a question, go to their Facebook group, watch their stuff, whatever it is, you're gonna learn a ton. Thanks to my fellow coaches and friends for joining me today. Thanks to the viewers and listening listeners for hanging out with us and as always, stay strong. Thanks for listening to the show. Before you go, I have a quick favorite ask. If you enjoy the podcast, let me know by leaving a five star review in Apple podcasts and telling others about the show. Thanks again for joining me Philip Pape in this episode of Wits & Weights. I'll see you next time and stay strong.

Philip Pape 1/24/23 Philip Pape 1/24/23

Ep 42: High-Impact Entrepreneurship, Inspiring Leadership, and Resilience in Coaching and Business with Lauren Tickner

Prepare yourself for some deep insights about entrepreneurship, leadership, online coaching, the fitness business, mindset, and more from today’s special guest. I am extremely excited to be joined by the amazing Lauren Tickner. Lauren is ranked as Forbes Magazine’s #1 business coach for 2021…and a Forbes Top 10 Entrepreneur in 2020. Lauren now works with her team at Impact School to help their clients implement systems and gain freedom in their businesses.

Prepare yourself for some deep insights about entrepreneurship, leadership, online coaching, the fitness business, mindset, and more from today’s special guest.

I am extremely excited to be joined by the amazing Lauren Tickner.

Lauren is ranked as Forbes Magazine’s #1 business coach for 2021…and a Forbes Top 10 Entrepreneur in 2020.

Lauren now works with her team at Impact School to help their clients implement systems and gain freedom in their businesses.

Topics discussed in this episode:

Lauren's story from content creator to online fitness coach to high-impact business coach
Core principles for finding success with online programs
How her fitness journey has impacted her business mentality/strategy
How fitness and business are similar
The value of systems and how to amplify them for business or life
If someone loves fitness but dreads the idea of running a business
The importance (or not) of having a niche market / unique approach / ideal client
How someone who has a full-time job, feels overwhelmed, and wants to cut through the distractions becomes an entrepreneur
What distinguishes an average leader from a successful / high-impact / inspiring leader
The big mistakes people make that hold them back from success in their online business
How a solo practitioner starts to build their team
The value of resilience and how we embody that in practice
How people seeking out coaching find someone authentic who they can trust

RELATED LINKS

Find Lauren on Instagram - @LaurenTickner
Find Impact School on Instagram - @Impact_school
Find Lauren on Facebook
Watch the episode on video here

👉 Just go to witsandweights.com/coaching to connect with me.
👥 To join our Facebook community for live training, free guides, free challenges, and more, just click here.

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👉 If you have any questions, just click here.

👨‍💻 HOSTED BY

Philip Pape of Wits & Weights (Instagram 👉 @witsandweights)

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Transcript

Philip Pape 00:08

Philip Pape 00:31

Welcome to another episode of Wits & Weights, prepare yourself for some deep insights about entrepreneurship leadership, online coaching the fitness business mindset and more from today's special guests. Because I'm extremely excited to be joined by the amazing Lauren Ticknor. Lauren is ranked as Forbes magazine's number one business coach for 2021. And a Forbes top 10 entrepreneur in 2020. Lauren now works with her team at impact school to help her clients implement systems and gain freedom in their businesses. Lauren, it's great to connect, and have you on the show. Yeah, Phillip,

Lauren Tickner 01:04

thank you so much for having me on. I know this is gonna be a load of value for your audience. So I'm gonna do my best to share as much as you want. Me too.

Philip Pape 01:12

Yeah, but you're my audience and me as well. Here's when we connected. I was really excited to have you on, you have this passion energy, if anybody watches your videos on YouTube, or wherever else, as an entrepreneur through online coaching and fitness, especially business systems, and I know you're trying to impact as many lives as possible. So tell us a bit about your story from beginning as a content creator to an online fitness coach and influencer. And now a high impact business coach, what inspired you pursue the path you're on today?

Lauren Tickner 01:41

Yeah, you've clearly done your research. So I appreciate that. And so it really started out I was just I loved fitness. I just absolutely loved it evidence based training and nutrition. And I was, I kind of started by accident when I was like 17 years old online coaching wasn't really a thing. But I found the likes of 3d MJ, and Eric Helms, and all these guys. And I just started reading the content they were putting out, and they had a podcast. And I remember they had a guy come on that they were doing some collab with. And he had a podcast, too. And his name was Luke Johnson. And they one time had this episode about how to start online coaching. And I thought, What is this online coaching thing. And so I listened to that, and became really good friends with the guys that are in that company. And we ended up just doing a bunch of stuff together in the space when it came to like training programs and ebooks, and this is back when you could sell 1000s of ebooks just through sending one email. It was craziness. And so I'm super grateful to have fallen into it. kind of by accident, honestly, I never intended to be in the fitness industry, I always had this goal of becoming the CEO of an asset management company in the UK, it was a weird goal. I know, looking back, it was so random. But I that's what I wanted to do. Then when I had that job, there was a gym like I was in a high rise building. And there was a gym just below and I could look down on out and see these people walking in and out all day. And I just dreamed to be able to go train whenever I wanted to. And so that's when I decided to leave the job. And pretty much then go full time into online fitness coaching. And yeah, then started working with companies like Jim shark and stuff. And then when they started pivoting more mainstream, they stopped working with a bunch of people they had been paying a monthly salary to. And loads of my friends no longer had an income. And I obviously had the online coaching the ebooks and stuff going on. So I helped them with that and didn't think anything of it. And then a couple of years later, I realized, wow, like this could be a really great business. And that's how impact school was formed very loosely. It definitely wasn't a company back then though. So that's kind of how we got here to this point. And I'm super grateful to be able to help the people that help the people because, you know, I know when I was first starting out, I knew nothing about business. So it's a it's really rewarding.

Philip Pape 03:53

Yeah, no, I love that story. I mean, we listened to a lot of the same stuff. Apparently, you mentioned Eric Helms. And that's kind of how I got into this journey as well as a lot of the education and but I like how you said, you know, helping people, helping the people or helping people. And you sort of found your way there both through serendipity, but also through your own action to get there. And eventually, you know, life just throw you in the right spot. So for online nutrition coaches like myself and others who are just starting kind of back earlier in your journey, or they're growing your businesses, and they want to make that big impact. They want to help people eventually help people help people. What would you say just the core principles for finding success with online programs specifically?

Lauren Tickner 04:33

For sure, yeah. So I really like to think about business in three pillars. So there's the impact offer, which is taking all of your knowledge, all of your experience and turning it into one scalable product, which is very difficult when when new because we want to help loads of different people and loads of different ways. But we're never able to build something sustainable, that's going to be independent without us having to run it all the time. If we try and do loads of different things. Because as soon as you start bringing on a team, they get really, really confused. So there's that part. And the second pillar is all about lead generation and sales. Okay? So I call this the specialist system, because it's a way to ensure that you have both inbound lead gen, and an outbound power prospecting, working for you all at the same time. So that you can also have a system so that anyone that comes into your ecosystem, you have a way to reach out to them in a stupid, non spammy way to get the conversation rolling, so that then you can prequalify people. And if I'm going too deep, just let me know. I love to go ahead. Okay, cool. I just don't want to lose anyone. But so you can pre qualify people and then vet them without even getting on to everyone seems to call it like a strategy session or something, you want to do that before to make sure that it is aligned, because I remember when I met when I was first starting out, so I was all about strength training, right, and about eating to become stronger. And this is what I loved. And I was obsessed with powerlifting. And I competed. And it was just the thing that I was really into, which was kind of weird, because like most girls weren't doing that. So I got a lot of girls come to me who were wanting to become strong and no longer have this like fat loss goal, right? Because my goal is they they were already super skinny, too skinny, right? And so they needed to gain some muscle. And so like, I remember then this one time, this guy could Steve came to me. And he was like, a skinny dude, right? And so he wanted to run marathons. And I thought, Oh, cool. Like, I can learn how to coach someone on a marathon like, yeah, it will help me diversify my skill set. And so I remember like, it was a Sunday, because I remember eating a roast dinner in England, you have like a Sunday versus like a traditional thing that you do in the UK. And so I sit down for this roast dinner with my family. And then I remember staying up until like, 11 at night, which you know, I'm kind of an early bird person. So it was really late for me trying to understand tapering and carb loading and how to, you know, run for a marathon, it was so boring, like, it was not like when I'm studying about how to back load your carbs, so that you can, you know, have increased, you know, whatever ever, like marginal gains for strength training, it wasn't like that, okay, this was boring for me. And I remember thinking to myself, Okay, but I need to learn this if I'm gonna be a successful online coach. And I had this belief in my mind that I had to know everything for everyone to serve every single person. And so around, I don't remember how long it was, because this is, gosh, this is years ago now. But let's just say I worked with him for a couple of months, and I ended up refunding him all the money, because every time it came to a consultation call with him, I just dreaded the encounter. Because it was boring, right. And most people are too afraid to say that they hate talking to a client, but it was true. And everyone has that client, they hate talking to you, they just wouldn't be honest about it. Let's be real. So what if you can have a business where you only work with clients that you love to talk to, when you get off your calls with them and you feel energized and excited to serve, right, because when you have that you want to show up every single day, and you're excited to scale the company rather than just grow it. Because you know that with more systems with more structure, with more infrastructure in place, you can then keep expanding the horizon rather than just growing something to its capacity, because you can't simply take on any more clients because you hate it so much. Right. And this is what I see a lot in online coaching people resenting their clients, obviously, we hear the stories because people tell us, because we are that guy to empower them to make it happen. But you know, coach to coach, people don't really tell this to each other that like, oh, yeah, everything's going great. We hear the truth most people hate the clients they work with. And this is terrible. So that's why it really comes down to like having one sustainable offering based upon the vision that you have the impact that you want to make, and then building the lead generation and the pre qualification systems in front of that, to ensure that you're only taken on the right clients that you can truly, truly help. And then from there, it comes down to the third pillar, which is scale your impact, which is replacing yourself. And these two things through building a team of purchased or building a team of special sales specialists who can enroll new clients ethically, and stick to your values. Right? So like, these are the three pillars that I always look towards. But it all starts with you, as the business owner, knowing where do I actually want to go? What impact do I want to make? Right? And why is that important? To me? Most people have a story. So Philip, I'd like to ask you like, what is your vision? Like? What's the impact that you're

Philip Pape 09:25

putting on the spot? I was actually gonna ask you about that first pillar, right of the, of the offer of how do you actually determine that ideal client because I've worked with many different clients with different goals and your, your thing about the marathon runner resonated with me because one of my clients had done that and you're right, you had to just okay, a deer in the headlights. I don't know anything about that. I have to learn as much as I can about this, or you know, a lot of female fat loss clients or then I have the person that wants to build muscle. And I might enjoy working with three or four very different types of clients. So how do we how do we determine that At early on, to make that impact, right? I would love to work with three or four types in that group. How do we determine that?

Lauren Tickner 10:08

Well, that's what you'd love to do. But it's not necessarily what's going to make the biggest impact. And sometimes we have to sacrifice our wants and our desires in favor of what the company needs, and what the people need. Because it's not all about you, in the, in the, like, in the long, long run, okay, at first, it's all about you when you know the impact that you want to make. Because when you get clear on the impact you want to make, it's like a tunnel vision thing. So a recent example, I have a lot of friends, and they are all investors, right? So they've got to the stage where they've built like nine and 10 figure companies, really successful people, like, you know, I can't even believe that these are my friends. But it's crazy. And so I did this exercise where I got really clear on what is my 10 year vision, like, what mission? Am I here to serve? Why am I doing this? And so, I would always say it's to build a company of companies that make a positive impact on the world. But I realized that's super vague, right? Because positive impact can be interpreted differently for everyone. Same like health, right? Health can be different for one person and the other, we know the state that we want to get to. But for someone with diabetes, it's very, very different than someone that is like, let's just say anorexic, it's totally different. They have to have a different treatment. So then when it comes down to the way that I was thinking, there are some things that are really important to me and some things that are not so I have a brother who's two years younger than me, however, his mental age is between one and two years old. Right? So he's physically disabled. He has epilepsy, and autism, various other learning disabilities, he has a tube in his tummy, because he does not eat or in a sustainable way. So he's actually interesting enough, quote, unquote, anorexic even though he would never even know what his body looks like. It's just totally out of his consciousness. Right? So anyway, I realized that for the longest time, I thought that the things that I really cared about was like education. And I thought that it was, you know, all these different things. But I realized, like, biggest, most important thing for me is health. So then, now, I had this deal come to me to invest in this company. And it was a really good deal. Okay, very, very good deal. It was a crypto gaming company. And it could have made a lot of money. And I know a lot of people that have made a lot of money from the steel. So I said to one of my friends who has a huge nutrition supplement company, like you would know exactly this company, like it's flipping huge. And he was the one that presented the deal to me. And I said to him, like, I'm facing an ethical dilemma right now. Like, I don't know what to do, because this deal is great. And I know I can make a lot of money. And I know where that money, I could then invest that into the things that I really, really care about. But it doesn't align with my values and my vision. So he said to me, something which I then ended up taking a different decision than what he said, Because he said, like, we'll learn if you put an even just, you know, X amount now, and you make this much on the back end is pretty much guaranteed, which, you know, this kind of sounds crazy sometimes. But there are these deals like when people play with like big sums of cash, like it can be like that. Anyways, I digress. But so he said, based upon what you're looking to do, and to achieve, like, if you invest the money, then that can be money, which you've then multiplied to then make a bigger impact. And I agreed with that. But it didn't just it didn't for me aligned, because it didn't agree with my truth value. So I said no to the deal. I didn't go ahead with it. And so now I'm very specific. And I could have made like, a really a lot. And so now I just realized, like, This feels good inside. This feels great inside. And it allows me to stay focused and not get distracted. Because I must say I did get distracted then. But now I know if a deal like that comes to me again, I'm not even going to entertain it. And instead I can focus on the things that I need to focus on. So I have to get clear on what is basically my tunnel, like what is yes. And what is no, if it's great. It's no it's not if it's not a Hell yeah, it's a no, I love that thing. And so, the same thing goes with like many clients that we have our impact school. So I have this fantastic fertility health doctor, that's her Instagram as well. And she in the beginning was like working with all different sorts of people. Like sometimes she would take up clients who were like, you know, half, half half, but then she realized like, why she's in the game. She wants to help people have a very healthy, successful pregnancy and raise incredible children. Right and so like, that's our mission, like that's why she's doing this. So if she's going to take on someone who needs to like reverse diabetes, that person will be better served with someone else who focuses on that specifically like another one of our clients, and M Charmaine Dominica as and she helps people reverse type two diabetes, right? And then for example, if someone with type one goes to her, then actually for example, the CEO of Impact school sister, her name is Gallia barrage, right. She helps she has type one diabetes, so she helps people who live with type one diabetes So there are people out there who you can build partnerships and relationships with, to send clients to, and maybe you want to do a deal where you send referrals. I personally just like to send it because you know, whatever you put out in the world as value, you get back 10 times, and it doesn't have to be from that same person. Sure, then that when it comes down to like the, you know, more spiritual stuff, but to answer your question, I think it all starts with you in your mind, but then realize that it's not all about you, and what you want to do, once you've made that decision, you then stick with your original choices. And obviously, you can change and adapt based upon new information that you get. That's, of course, important, but like taking on everything and trying to be everything for everyone, you're never going to serve people to the best degree possible. That's from my personal experience, having worked with, you know, more than 3000 clients very closely at this point. Yeah. And

Philip Pape 15:47

I asked that question, especially on behalf of people who have have had maybe five clients, 10 clients, something like that, and they're still figuring it out? And really can't answer that question, I guess, is the problem. Some people have that, you know, extreme tunnel or target vision that they have others haven't discovered yet, like, in my case, I know, most of the clients that I enjoy working with, and I find I can help them most of the ones that found me through this podcast, or through the information I'm putting out there. And maybe there's some tie in to, you know, this, this evidence based nutrition and body composition that are really focused on a lot, but I'm not really 100% sure exactly where that falls, and I don't necessary want to rule things out either, if a new potential client comes in, and all of a sudden, it's a perfect fit. So that's why I asked that, you know,

Lauren Tickner 16:32

one of your values, right, like, so a value that comes to my mind that you have clearly is like constant learning, right? And progression. So it's like you don't want clients who just want to get by, you want clients who want to get to that next level, because you then are able to thrive and you get excited to serve them, because they are excited about working with you. And they're excited about the outcome that you're going to get them. So like that would be a value that you have right for us. Same thing, we have constant progression. That's one of our values. That allows me to know our impact school, you know, if we're hiring someone, if they're complacent, and they're satisfied, and they don't really care to learn more than they're not going to be grateful at walking at impact school, neither are they going to be good at being a client of us. So that's just an example there. But okay, this is one thing that really helped me, I can't remember who said this to me, because I would love to be able to give the credit. I definitely didn't come up with this. But someone said to me, how do you want the world to look after you're done in it? So that was really helpful, because then it made me realize, like, there are some things that I just don't really care about actually doing that I'm doing right now. So that can get you thinking,

Philip Pape 17:38

yeah, definitely gets me thinking in the audience thinking I hope. Okay, so what if your second pillar was about the developing the business with lead generation sales and so on, before you get to the scaling? Well, what if you love fitness? But you dread the idea of those things? Yeah, dread the idea of, quote unquote, business, right? Whether it's posting on social media, sales and marketing, all the things people think and know are required to grow business. And you're too I guess, too early on to necessarily hire and have a team to do that. So what is your take on that?

Lauren Tickner 18:10

Well, maybe you don't need to have your own business. That's also an option, right? There's people like you, that these people can go and work for who already have a great platform and a brand. There's also other companies that you can go and work for. So I also used to be in the belief that everyone should have their own business. And I had a conversation with Nora, who she started out as a sales specialist, okay. Then she, this is years ago, then she started managing that team. Right? Then she started doing some coaching on sales for our clients. Then she started shifting into operations, and she became the operations manager. And now she's coo. And now she's also my business partner. Okay. And so like, this is the evolution there. But I didn't understand because she was making from in person personal training, she was selling it for 4.2k pounds. And every month, she was doing more than 16 grand a month, because I remember it was above 15k, but below 20. And then she I offered had this job and I said like, look, this is going to be a serious peeker. But I need you on my team. And she said yes, because she didn't want her in business. She She didn't care about the money as much. And so I think as entrepreneurs sometimes because we are so excited about things all the time, or we want to do 10 different things. Sometimes having those non entrepreneurial people on our team who are more level headed than us is very valuable, because they can prevent us from making all these crazy decisions, which, believe me, I've been there so maybe they don't need to have their own business, right? If you're on the PC, if you're a PC on the ground, like doing all these sessions in person and it's too much for you. Then maybe you could go and be an online coach for an online coaching company. If you're a nutritionist, oh, my gosh, there are that is like super in demand skill because there are so many great online fitness coaches who don't have a neutral Shouldn't brunch with a company. So they're just doing these kind of like sketchy, you know, macro plans, which they shouldn't really be doing whereby you could come in and partner with them, right? And then they take on all the business stuff. And then you act as the nutritionist at the business and get a fixed monthly retainer, or you aren't you say to them, like, hey, I want to be like intrapreneurial here, which is building kind of like an entrepreneurial company within a company. And then they build their own branch within another business. So that's also another option. There are many ways to do something doesn't just have to be like, Okay, I love fitness. I need to have my own business. Yeah. Right. That's what I thought. And so I even sunk more than 10k, this is 110 K, I did not have a lot of money, right? This is like, I was 19 years old, I invested 10k in building these leggings, getting them manufactured all this time and effort. And I realized, like I was just in a business idea, which was never even going to make any real money, right? People make money on that type of thing, because they have huge, huge volume rather than, you know, having something like a online coaching, which can be you know, high margin. So, to the point like, maybe you don't need a business.

Philip Pape 21:09

Yeah, I think that's a fresh perspective. That's great, because I think, I think a lot of people answer that question with well, how do you how do you make it work anyway, and like you said, there are partnerships collaborations you can hire people you could work for people might be in sourcing and outsourcing, there's so many great approaches to this. Hey, this is Philip Pape. And if you feel like you've put in an effort to improve your health and fitness, but aren't getting results, I invite you to apply for a one on one coaching to make real progress and get the body you desire. We'll work together to figure out what's missing. So you can look better, perform better and feel better. Just go to wits, & weights.com/coaching, to learn about my program and apply today. Now back to the episode. So that's and that was the sort of leading to the third pillar than about scale, as I'm an engineer by background, so I love the idea of using repeatable systems and frameworks to make things more efficient. And I've done that well before I even knew what it was called right? Taking spreadsheets, automation tools, whatever. And trying to, because I'm lazy. That's what I like to tell people. I don't like to do things the hard way. I want to do it the easy way. Even with strength training, I was like, what's the lazy way to get strong and jacked? It's, it's barbells. You know, like, what's the most efficient? Yeah, right. I'm not gonna run on a treadmill every day. So, no. So yeah, so I think that I do have my podcast or posting on social or even the things I don't quote unquote, like myself when I mentioned the previous question about running a business. But I figured out a way to get me out of it, so to speak. Right, right, tell us about the value of that of systems of frameworks, how we amplify that fundamental approach to business or even life.

Lauren Tickner 22:49

So I would say like, it kind of depends on on your revenue. Because I think the biggest problem is people do things they think they need to do. But they really don't need to be doing them posting on social media everyday. I used to believe this was a so we have this framework at impact school vile, right, vital, important luxury and eliminate. So most of the things are in that E bucket of eliminate, you can eliminate, probably, I love the 8020 principle. And then going even deeper on that there's this great book called like 8020, sales and marketing. That's a really good book. Okay, love this one. This is like the first business book I'd ever read in my life. And I still think back to it, because it just, man, it helped me so much. So there are so many things that we think we need to be doing, which really, they don't really produce any results. Like why bother building a website, when you don't yet have anyone clicking the link to go to your website? Right, only in the last three or four months did we actually properly put together a proper website for impact school before it was had Latin text on there? You know, it was terrible. It was really texting me. Yeah, and even now, it's like pretty mediocre. But we recently just I just invested in a website, building expert and copywriters to do the whole thing for me, which was a huge sum of money, which I didn't need to do. Because in the beginning stages, I would have been better off spending that I'm building a team to support my clients so that then I could get freed from that area, and then focus on sales and marketing myself. And then when I made that more money again, then I could then finally put that into, you know, maybe some ads or some social media growth. And then from there, maybe then you want to build the website. Okay. So like, I just think about things in sequential steps. So if I am going to have like two people visit my website, why build that instead, when I could build like an entire Google document or a notion page, telling exactly all the details about my offer, and my program, because then I can send that to people one on one in a DM conversation or via email who were actually coming to me and asking me or you could then start reach hanging out to like 50 people a day, saying and not doing it in a spammy way. Instead saying like, Hey, I've just graduated 10 People from My Nutrition Program, which reverses type two diabetes, just wondering, as I'm about to start a new cohort, if you know anyone that could be interested in, you know, reversing, reversing type two, right? That's just an example. And then you're going out asking them for value and then giving them value sorry, by seeing if they know anyone, and then you know, you can get referrals. And oftentimes those people then will end, you know, if you do your targeting properly, they are people that have type two diabetes as my example. And then from there, then they'll start replying back to you like, oh, well, I don't know anyone, but I'm interested, right? And then you can send that each of them directly in the chat. So it's just like the volume of people that will see it will be way greater than like, I'm giving this website example. Because this is probably the biggest mistake that I see. People get all their fancy business cards and things. No one cares.

Philip Pape 25:57

Nobody, nobody sees it. Yeah, nobody comes. Yeah, exactly. So.

Lauren Tickner 26:00

So before even thinking about scale, I like to scale intimacy, which is one on one conversations. And I like to get that so scaled that like, for example, as the business owner, I would no longer be able to do anymore, because I have other things going on. And then I would want to replace myself in the things that are not directly producing revenue. Because I think especially in fitness coaches think that they have to do all the client work, like, I don't want to have a cookie cutter program. And I don't want to, you know, I thought all this stuff, too. But then I realized I can hire great people, when I'm making enough sales, people who are really fantastic, who don't want their own business, who will come and work at my company, who are going to get better results for my clients, because I can then stay in my zone of genius. So it really comes down to at this point, like ask yourself the question, what do I hate doing the most of my business that doesn't produce me revenue? Excellent. Because if you hate your sales, like, you probably want to keep doing that for a while until you've refined it and dialed in the system so that every single time you know that this is going to produce the outcome that you want,

Philip Pape 26:54

right? And I imagine everybody you can pick 100 people and every one of them are going to dislike a different aspect of that process. So you got to target the woman, you know, like, I really enjoyed talking with people, and I didn't used to, you know, years ago used to be very introverted. And, you know, now I'm talking probably way too much on my podcast. But yeah, that's my outlet for reaching. Yeah,

Lauren Tickner 27:13

that's great. That's great. But if you were doing client work, like 10 hours a day, you wouldn't be able to do this right? And so like, it just comes down to also thinking where can I add leverage, and you know, a lot of it on the client success side of things, we like the impact offer, because it's really a fusion of having, you know, an out a program, which takes someone to an outcome specifically, but then there's enough like wiggle room so that throughout that process, you can adapt things, one on one to every single client. And especially now, like, the way that I'm seeing the industry go in, is that coaching plus consulting plus Courses Plus agency is all moving into the same umbrella. Right? So it's like, how can we do more for our clients, so that then they have to do less work so that we can stand out, rather than them saying, like, what makes you different than this person, right, that's also something that's going on in the space. So I think adding leverage through building a program, we like having an impact offer, because I just think it fuses together everything. So so nicely, client does something they submitted to you, it's all systematized and organized. And then from there, like most of the time, the next thing comes down to like getting someone to take care of actually managing the clients serving the clients. And then if they have like something specific that needs your attention, then that person will come to you to ask you rather than the client coming to you. And it just removes that level of access. So then you're able to have the creative thinking time to think how can I actually scale this thing? Right? How can I build a new system to bring in more leads of dream clients, or get me on more podcasts or go to more events, things like that, it creates that freedom, then you can really, really scale?

Philip Pape 28:52

The impact offer, as opposed to trying to sell the differences between you as an individual coach, for example, it's having a program where the client feels like that it's seamless, maybe frictionless for them, and then being able to scale. So taking a step back a little bit for someone who wants to be that entrepreneur who does have the passion and enjoys the fitness space, but they have a full time job, right? They're already feeling a little bit stretched, thin, overwhelmed, maybe of the family and so on. And they want to cut through a lot of these shiny tools and distractions we've just been talking about, maybe they're a little risk averse to but still feel like that's the way they want to go where where would they start? Right balancing that job that they don't want to give up just yet. And then moving into this new venture?

Lauren Tickner 29:33

Yeah, so it's interesting, we recently kind of pivoted to working exclusively with people that like, you know, full time in their business already doing like a certain amount because, you know, this is where I'd say we are the strongest when it comes to like getting the first and honestly it's the first stage like I don't even think it's a good idea for someone to like join a program like in post school at that stage. Because it is it's way more simple than people think is It's way more simple. And I don't feel super ethical doing that. Because like, it's so simple. And I didn't realize that it's mainly just you and yourself. So I would say the first thing is that you need to be dedicating like, one or two hours a day to personal development, you have to start that you have to get ready for it, you need an entrepreneurial mindset upgrade, so that then you're ready for what's about to come. Because when things start moving, they start moving very, very quickly. And people are often thinking like, it feels too much too soon. But that's entrepreneurship. Okay. So where can you right now, if you pull out your phone, pull out your calendar, whatever you like to use? Where can you put in, let's just say 30 to 30 minutes, lots of personal development work, and you put that in, right? And I'm not talking like, just business stuff here. I'm talking about personal development, things like you know, maybe you want to look at like Dr. John Demartini. Okay, like Bob Proctor, you know, people Tony Robbins people that are gonna show your mind, like what you can do, what you can take you to the next level, where you're listening to this podcast. Now, you could check out mine to impact school podcasts and things like this that you can listen to and make notes. Because you have to start getting into the habit of doing the things that other people won't do. Because in order to be successful in entrepreneurship, I've seen again, from our clients, our most successful clients, my friends, the ones that will Zig when everybody else thinks they're the ones that are gonna be the most successful, right? Like, you're probably already into fitness, and your friends aren't right. You're into health and fitness people from the past thought that you were crazy. Now all your friends are, you've made new friends who are fitness friends, right? I had that same thing too. So like, how did you get so good at health and fitness? Because you did what everyone else thought was weird, right? We are. Exactly. That's what I mean. Right? Everyone says that you have to do HIIT training, whereas you just, you know, squat every day. And that's how you make the games. Exactly. So. So that's the first thing. Second thing is like, really understanding that and answering that question like how do you want the world to look after you're done with it? I really love the sport because then it gives you clarity and direction. And when you have that clear, then you'll know Okay, let's say right now, if I were to tell you, you need to charge two grand for a client. If that makes you shudder. You know, you need to do money mindset work. Okay? There are some great books like Jensen Zehra has a book called you're a badass at making money. There's another book called The Richest Man in Babylon. Man, there's a lot but just on Google on Titan money mindset books, okay, you need to improve your money mindset. If you think that charging two grand is too low, I too high sorry, I think charging two grand is too low. Even if you're in health and fitness. Because let's be honest, if you're in the house, if you're in that industry, you could have 1000 wishes. But if you you know if you if you don't have your health, and you only have one wish, there's some quote that I heard a while ago. And so people have this huge mindset block here, I find this especially in health and fitness industries, it's a big problem. And so that's then something you need to work on. Okay? Then when you realize like, okay, I can charge for my first time round two grand in the future, let's say you want to charge for 5k, like a 16 week program. All right, then you need to figure out what's that program going to be, I have a video on YouTube, if you just type into if you go to my YouTube channel, it's just Lauren Ticknor. There's this video, like, where I spoke at this event called War Room. And it's like how to build a product or service and scale to millions, like that's the title of the video, like, this is a really good video to watch to get an understanding of how to actually, you know, have build your build your your product. And then from there, it comes down to just bringing in like five to five to 15 clients at that 2k price point. And let's say that takes you like, I don't know, 45 days to do, then you've made what, at least 10k in the very beginning. And it comes down to how you're positioning and enrolling people. I mean, I'm sure right now, you know, five people on your Facebook friend list or like in your small audience, if you have one, or your phone contacts that you could really help. So it comes down to positioning it like hey, like I'm bringing on my first five clients, like, I know you were looking to x y Zed XYZ? Would you be interested in working with me before I start charging full price in exchange for some feedback? And I'd be happy to get you in for less?

Philip Pape 34:15

Yeah, this is gold. I mean, that's how I got my first clients as well. It's a great approach. You're right. And what was I gonna say here? So what are what are the things that then hold people back beyond? They got the mindset thing I like I like how you mentioned that spend time and personal development and it might be very different for different people might be how to talk people on a sales people on a sales call, right? Like maybe a lot of different skills. You You live in Dubai and we're talking and actually across the world right now as we record this, you have team members across something like 11 time zones, more than 15 countries. And let's say you are an entrepreneur and you've gotten through that first step, you've gotten 15 clients, your client base is growing. And now you need to hire that first person, coach, Assistant, build your team. How does a solo play exhibitioner start to do that.

Lauren Tickner 35:02

This is great. So how not to do is find a friend and say, Hey, you want to come work? We've all made that mistake. So also another thing, a lot of people will find someone that's a friend as well and say, hey, look, let's do a partner business partnership. But oftentimes, like our friends are the ones that are the most similar to us. Thus, we do not need them there, because they're basically just you. Okay, so like, let's just say, Yeah, let's say like, you're a fitness person, and they are a nutritionist. And one of you is good at sales and marketing and one of you loves working with clients then great. But if you both a fitness, or if you're both nutritionists, and you both love to work with clients, and you both hate sales and marketing, you get on because of those things, usually. So in that case, you'd probably be better off just, you know, each building your own company, and then hiring your own teams, or just going into it knowing like we are going to we are very similarly, we need to hire different people into the business. And just be aware, like, you know, the partnership usually isn't necessary at that point, if you want to have a partnership, because you want to have, like the friend now with you, then yeah, sure, great, but just be aware, like it will probably cause friction in the future, if you're good at the same things, because you're going to want to do the same things. And the company doesn't always need that. So I would say it comes down to like, okay, you've got things going now just looking at your calendar, like what's taking the most of your time. And out of those things, like, let's say you would circle they will highlight things in green that bring in money, and then highlight the things and like orange that just allow the business to run, and then highlight the things in red that you do that like maybe you don't know, if they're actually doing anything to like, actually build the business. And then the things that are orange are the things that you hire. Makes sense, right? Because the red things, maybe they don't bring any money right now. But maybe you're like, you know, working on a new program that you're gonna change your entire industry with, right, and the things that bring in the money, you want to keep control over that. Because if you start handing over sales to someone else, and they suck, it's not that let's say you hire a commission, or any salesperson, and they just don't make sales. And let's say you're selling the thing for 2k. And they have five sales calls a day. Right? That's like, not that you're just oh, I didn't have to pay them because they you know, they didn't make any commission. No, that's 10k a day that you are missing out on, right that you could have otherwise have, you could have closed, right. So that's like how I like to do it. Honestly, I would say until, you know, 200 grand a month or so like being the main one during the sales is oftentimes the best thing for the business.

Philip Pape 37:33

Okay, this is this is gold. I have a couple more questions, maybe from the client point of view. You know, I think there are a lot of salesy and authentic business owners out there that are scamming people, or at least perceived, you know, comes across that way, because the fitness industry is what it is. Nobody's surprised about that. But how does someone find someone they trust as a client, right? I'd like to think for example, we talked about this podcast that it helps people get to know me and realize I'm a human being, and I love this stuff. I like to help people. And so when they have that conversation, I'm sort of pre qualified them, as you mentioned earlier in a way that they know me, but for someone seeking coaching, how do they do this from an informed place?

Lauren Tickner 38:14

Yeah, great question. I mean, I think what you're doing hence, fantastic. But I think it comes down to like, first of all, the business owner, knowing the ideal client, better than the ideal client even knows the ideal client. Because when you know, the problems that they have, before they've even seen those problems, yet, that's actually adding value, because you're highlighting the pains. So for example, like in the past, in fitness, I had this webinar, like, it was like, the three biggest mistakes. I forget the title now, but it was like, showing them the biggest mistakes that people make. And then they realize, like, Oh, I didn't even realize I was doing this wrong. And I added value to them through showing them that through, you know, constantly focusing on hitting like, one hour of cardio a day that was actually you know, preventing them from losing us from from from getting hurt, etc. And like getting, they always wanted to be toned. I don't like the word but they, you know, that was their favorite one. So, yeah, so that was really valuable to them. So I think making content surrounding those pain points and those problems, but then also like, as, as the client, like realizing that you just have to get started, right? It's like, if you've been thinking about it for a while, like, you know, if you want something now, the sooner you pounce on it, the sooner you start getting value from it, nothing is going to change, like nothing's gonna change, except your situation is gonna get worse. And so I think sometimes, like we have to really, you know, show the potential path of them not making a decision so that then the client actually knows that they need to make a decision right now. Because then when they come in, they're also a client that's bought in and they'll actually take the action. Right so I would say what you're doing with the podcast is fantastic. And also like yeah, built scaling the intimacy building personal relationships, like not being afraid to get in the DMS and have those conversations, because then you get the best feedback as well about what people's real pain points and problems are right now. So then you can build that into your solution.

Philip Pape 40:11

For sure, yeah, and the cost of not changing is often much greater than the cost of change and trying to help people understand that. So kind of related to this on one of your Twitter posts, you talked about using the language your clients want to be spoken in. And I really liked that point, I'd like to learn a little more about that, if you can elaborate on it. Yeah, so

Lauren Tickner 40:31

for example, like, if you say, I'm going to help you get a toned stomach, or I'm going to help you get shredded ABS is the same outcome is just one way you're talking to a dude that wants to, you know, get off. And the other way, you're talking to a woman who wants to have a nice stomach, or a guy that just wants to, you know, get a bit a bit a bit a little bit, you know, jacked and muscley, but not like shredded, right? So it really comes down to like, when you're in the DMS of people talking to them, or if you're talking on email, or you're looking at how they're commenting on on the posts of like, you know, companies in your space. Just look at how they're typing things, right? Like if they're like, yes, queen, like, you know, you want to start talking like that. Whereas if this became like a super scientific way, then you can meet them where they're at. And that's also going to kind of dictate, like the level of sophistication of the client in which you're serving, right? So if you're I made the huge mistake when I was in fitness, whereby I would be talking about super complex stuff in a really scientific way. And it totally alienated my dream client. They don't know they don't care, they don't understand. And that was, you know, I also when I was competing, I did some bodybuilding competitions, like bikini. And that was stupid. I shouldn't have done that. Like, I thought it would help my business, but it hurt my business a law and you know, I do, I just did it. Because my friend told me like, Hey, you should do it. And you know, I wasn't thinking properly. I mean, fine. In hindsight, whatever it was, it was whatever. But like, for my business, it was not good, because I was so alienating myself from my client. So that's also something to think about too, like, how can you be relatable, but also position yourself as the person that's been through the pains which they've been through? And now you have the answer in the outcome?

Philip Pape 42:11

Got it. Awesome. Sunflower? Well, I like to finish with this question with all guests. And that is, what one question Did you wish I asked, and what is your answer?

Lauren Tickner 42:21

Oh, man. Okay. So the question that you wish I'd asked, I think like, just maybe about, you know, for you and yourself, like what you need in order to get your business to the next level, like, because it sounds like you have a bunch of different offers going on right now. And you're trying to serve like a lot of different people. So maybe just something specific to that, because I think that can be helpful for your audience. And then maybe they can also send you in their feedback.

Philip Pape 42:42

Should I ask you that question? All right, yeah.

Lauren Tickner 42:46

I would say like, you know, you need to just figure out like the outcome that you want to take your clients to, and get ultra crystal clear on that, like, based upon the impact that you want to make. And then from there, I will also in order to get to that outcome, like have people DM you on Instagram, at Wits & Weights, tell them like, you know, what, what they're working towards? And like, what offer that you could put out that would get them to say yes,

Philip Pape 43:10

I love that validation. Right? That's great. Okay, so Lauren, this has been an amazing conversation full of great information, I learned a lot. And if nothing else that I love that, but the listeners are going to as well. So where can they learn more about you and your work and impact impact school?

Lauren Tickner 43:27

Yes, if you'd like podcasts impact school podcast, I also have a really old podcast where you can still listen to all of them, called Business meets fitness. So you might like that, that's all about like building a fitness business, like the stuffs super old from like, 2017. I think so. You know, I think it's still quite relevant. But I haven't listened to it for a while. So maybe my voice is a little higher. And I'm less eloquent. But yeah, that's the best faces and obviously, all social media. I'm on Facebook. We have a Facebook group called MP School, which is free. Yeah, those are the best places, Instagram to Lauren Techna. I'm kind of everywhere. So

Philip Pape 44:04

awesome. Of course, ya know, and I'll include all of that. I'm gonna go check out that the older podcasts don't know which one you're talking about. So you've been an incredible guests, Lauren. And, you know, I think we're here we've peered into the mind of someone with a ton of experience and knowledge. I personally learned a ton I had fun chatting with you. And I want to thank you for coming on the show. Philip.

Lauren Tickner 44:22

Thank you. This is awesome. And yeah, I love what you're doing. So keep it up.

Philip Pape 44:25

Thank you. Thanks for listening to the show. Before you go, I have a quick favorite ask. If you enjoy the podcast, let me know by leaving a five star review in Apple podcasts and telling others about the show. Thanks again for joining me Philip Pape in this episode of Wits & Weights. I'll see you next time and stay strong.

Philip Pape 1/17/23 Philip Pape 1/17/23

Ep 41: Massive Mindset Shifts, Habit Building, Productivity, and Self-Mastery with Monica Ricci

Today we are digging into shifting your mindset to achieve self-mastery and live your best life through things like identity, habits, productivity, and of course as always on this show, how those tie back to your fitness and health.

My guest is Monica Ricci. Monica has been facilitating positive change for over 20 years. She founded Catalyst Organizing, LLC in 1998, working with individuals, business owners, and business teams to help clarify priorities, achieve goals, create organization, and improve productivity.

In the world of productivity, Monica has been an author, blogger, speaker, radio host, and frequent TV guest on many local morning shows as well as Fox & Friends, CNN.com, and HGTV.

Today, she uses her experience and talents to facilitate positive change and transformation through coaching, speaking, and social media.

Monica lives a nomadic life, coaching via Zoom while traveling the country. When she isn’t moving to a new city, she enjoys strength training, cycling, baseball, rock and roll, and high-quality butter.

Topics discussed in this episode:

Monica's personal story and how you got interested in coaching
Why "Day Thirteen" was pivotal
How someone develops a skill or habit over time to create positive outcomes (the Law of Accumulation)
The science of habit building and making progress
Micro-stepping to create new habits
The Exercise Myth and the right approach for someone trying to lose fat
How identity drives behaviors
The courage to be an outlier
What self-mastery looks like
The identity-to-behavior transformation
How you help people create significant shifts in mindset

RELATED LINKS

Find Monica on Instagram - @remakingmonica
Find Monica on Twitter - @monicaricci
Monica's website - monicaricci.net
Watch the episode on video here

👉 Just go to witsandweights.com/coaching to connect with me.
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Transcript

Philip Pape 00:08

Philip Pape 00:31

Welcome to another episode of Wits & Weights. Today we're digging into shifting your mindset to Achieve Self Mastery and live your best life through things like identity, habits, productivity, and of course as always on the show how those tie back to fitness and health. My guest is Monica Ricky Monica has been felicite facilitating positive change for over 20 years. She founded catalyst organizing, LLC in 1998. Working with individuals, business owners and business teams to help clarify priorities, achieve goals, create organization and improve productivity. In the world of productivity. Monique has been an author, blogger, speaker, radio host and frequent TV guest on many local morning shows, as well as Fox and Friends cnn.com and HGTV. Today she uses her experience and talents to facilitate facilitate positive change and transformation through coaching, speaking and social media. Monica lives a nomadic life coaching via zoom while traveling the country. And when she isn't moving to a new city. She enjoys strength training, cycling, baseball, rock and roll and high quality. Butter. Yum. Monica, I'm so glad you can come on the show. How are you?

Monica Ricci 01:42

Oh my gosh, thank you so much for having me, Philip. I'm great. I am in Connecticut at the moment, as I mentioned are you as you mentioned, I live this beautiful nomadic adventure. And so I happen to be on the northeast part of my road tour. And it is really lovely being here. Yeah, we were talking about the beautiful fall because we're recording this in November. And I'm also in Connecticut. And it's so awesome to hear about your ability to travel. And when you say the North, you know, this is just where I'm from, but the country is huge. So I'm really excited to talk to you because you have this background, not only in health and fitness, but in personal development and mindset. And so what is your personal story and how you got interested in the type of coaching you do today? Well, you know, sometimes, I think I know for myself, I can't even see the beginning of when I started to get interested in personal development it if I follow the line back, it's almost like you can't really tell where it starts. Because it's it starts so small sometimes. But I've really been hitting it hard, probably the last, I would say probably the last 10 or 15 years in just really exploring opportunities to learn,

Monica Ricci 02:52

to grow to take advantage of the resources that are out there that help us do things like cultivate our own self mastery in terms of you know, coaching and courses and books and you know, all the things we hear about the people you surround yourself with. And so as I was building my business back in the well, it was really the turn of the last I mean the end of the last century, which is the 90s It's amazing. It's been it's been that long. But I started that business in 1998, with the idea that one of my strengths is helping people to get to the core of issues and simplify things. And I translated that into physical simplicity, organ organization, and decluttering. And so that was kind of the beginning of this of the personal development work that I did, because organizing someone's environment. And indeed organizing your own environment. And building the skills to do that is definitely an exercise in personal development. Because it takes discipline, it takes learning, it takes a certain skill set a certain habits set, right. I never connected really to personal development way back then I just kind of recognize that it was a need in the marketplace. And I had a skill for it. And so I just jumped in and started doing it. And it grew so really organically. I am oh I shouldn't even say this. I am that business owner who never had a business plan or never planned at all. I just kind of leaped right in and literally never did a day of marketing in my whole life and my whole career for 20 years. I just didn't and and in some ways I think that's great. And that says hey, you know, like, you're onto something right? If you don't, right, if you don't need to put your energy in that to come to you Sure. Yeah, right. And it really did opportunities just came it was such a beautiful existence and, and it was really, it was probably about four years into it, that I really started to get a grasp on on how important the work was that I was doing. For the people that I was doing it for, it wasn't about the spaces it was about the people. And there were times when, when I realized that just the conversation we were having was the important piece that it wasn't about remaking the closet, or, you know, remaking the office or whatever it was we were working on. It was the conversation that happened in that space. That was transformative. And that's what I latched on to. So many years later, when I began to feel like it was time for me to exit that industry. In that specific capacity. I still, I still am in the service of productivity. It's just that I'm not doing it exactly the same way sort of a different channel now with the coaching and the masterminding and such. Right, but but that was, I guess, really my foray into into working in the personal development space, it's started way back, then. And it continues today. As you mentioned, I travel and I do zoom. And it's a really beautiful existence, because it allows me to reconnect with people in my life that I haven't seen in a long time. And it also allows me to continue to work and contribute in that way. And it allows me to see places I've never seen before and meet people I've never met.

Philip Pape 06:14

You know, it's amazing, your story, how you, you, you engage in passions along the way that eventually it kind of converged into something you didn't expect, right? You tell me about how you focus on productivity and organizing. But now it's the organization of your life, right? It's the development of things and organizing things. And now the development of yourself and your and then the nomadic life prop, I'm assuming the whole pandemic and everything moving online, and technologies flourishing like that, also, maybe facilitated the ability to do that. So what what Tell me a little bit more about the coaching that you do today in terms of personal development. And also maybe I don't know if you want to tie that into day 13, that you mentioned before we talked today, I don't want to give it away.

Monica Ricci 06:59

The the coaching that I do today is I do a combination, I do private coaching, and I also do group group coaching and business team coaching. And what we work on is is sort of a mixed model. And what I what I mean, as a mixed model is we work on things that are very tactical, in some cases, very granular. But we also work higher level like we work on things like who are you being right? Who do you need to be in this situation? Who have you been in the past that hasn't worked? And how do you embody this new identity moving forward, so that you can create the habits you want to create, to create the outcomes you want to create? Right? So there's this all this kind of higher level, a little more esoteric stuff. But when it comes down to it, those things translate actual specific actions, you go broad, to narrow, and that's where we focus our attention is in the everyday habits, actions and disciplines that really build a life.

Philip Pape 07:57

Yeah, and that that's so aligned with a lot of what I do as well, with nutrition coaching, like you said, it's not not necessarily where you've been or where you are today and what you embody today, it's the future, you, right? Act as if that's where you're going to be. And now what, where's the gap? And I love that approach. Because yeah, it is up here. But it drives down, down down down to today, in the moment in front of us, when we get

Monica Ricci 08:21

a little bit weak, give some real really granular and concrete examples, because I know, folks who watch podcasts, they watch for a reason they want information, swamp takeaways, they want to be able to go I want to do something new now. Yes. And we can absolutely talk about how the higher vision of who you want to be and who you strive to be translates into a singular action every day. And that is really the powerful part of this kind of this kind of coaching is that it involves not only that instructive part, but also it involves the community and the accountability piece, which is so supportive, they're kind of like the guardrails in life, you know, he's having that community, and then he also the accountability, so that you're not alone in this journey of of changing mastery.

Philip Pape 09:04

Great. Yeah. And I'm all for the listener getting as much value and strategies out of this as possible. So do we, do we start there? Do we start up at, at maybe, you know, a lot of people know what to do. Right? And maybe not, but a lot of people have sort of the education or they listen to a lot of podcasts. And they may personally know what they need to do. But they get overwhelmed taking that first step of being consistent day in day out, right. That's the overarching challenge for a lot of people. So how does someone develop that skill or habit over time and create those outcomes? I think you refer to that as the law of accumulation. Hmm.

Monica Ricci 09:37

I love the law of accumulation, which essentially just says that small changes applied consistently add up to great results. I mean, it's pretty, it's pretty straightforward, right? And during my fitness journey, my fitness transformation. I started my fitness transformation in 2019. And I didn't intend for it to be a transformation. Frankly, I had no idea what was gonna happen, but it's it set off this cascade of events and changes in me that was that led me to where I am today. But during my fitness transformation, I just showed up, I just showed the heck up every day. And I didn't know the end result. But what I what I knew was that if I showed up every day, something would change. What I didn't realize was that I would change in the process was that I would become a new person. And when you mentioned the what, why and the or the what people know what to do, sometimes they do, sometimes they don't. But let's assume that people know what to do. And I love using the container of health and fitness. And the reason I love using it is because every single person can relate to it. Every single person has had this conversation with themselves around their health and fitness, it's not some magical thing that only a few people can understand. So most people know what they need to do. What they miss, though, is the why they want to do it, and who they have to become in order to do it. And that's where the coaching comes in. Right? That's where you dig a little deeper, because the thing is, and I have said this in speaking engagements I can remember, I was it was probably I don't know, mid 2000s. And I was speaking to a group of Army Wives at a base called I want to say it was Fort Thomas Georgia. And I actually have video of this piece of my of my presentation, we were talking about this exact thing. And I said, information is just information. Unless you apply it, it means nothing. For example, I know what I need to do to lose 15 or 20 pounds. Am I doing it? No, I'm not. So that was me, like in the past saying exactly what I'm saying now, right? Which is the information isn't the magic, the knowing what to do is not the magic. Because if that were the magic, everybody would be everywhere they want to be right now. Yeah, it's the getting yourself to do it. And that's what self mastery is. And it's very nut, it's very core and the essence, self mastery is the ability to get yourself do the thing you need to do whether you want to or whether you don't. Regardless of how you feel acting. That is great.

Philip Pape 12:16

And I love it. You also put it earlier as showing up. If you don't show up, you can't change. And you can't become that future you whether it's the lighter, stronger, fitter, happier, whatever you want to call it version of you. And that term, physical, mental and self mastery really resonates with me because I think I think my podcast description actually has that exact term. So you really resonate with me there. Oh, mine. So yeah, yeah, no, I love that that phrase right? Of the future you so let's dig into the habits then a little bit more. Because like you alluded to that this is kind of the missing skill, we often know what to do. And we don't know what to do. I think people are people know how to seek out information and education. But if people could grasp and develop habit building, right, it would cultivate the consistency we talked about in the small results we talked about. So is there something about the science of habit building that we're all missing? Or don't understand something you can let us know? And that's actionable where I could, I can learn more about habit building itself, so then I can apply that skill.

Monica Ricci 13:17

Yeah, absolutely. There's so much on habits that is out there right now. BJ Fogg talks about habits in his book, I think he's the one who wrote tiny habits. And James clear I love I love his content and atomic habits as well. And so like, for example, the James clear model of the habit loop, which is the cue, the craving, the response and the reward, it's the circle all the time, round, and around and around, we go right. And we don't even realize how much of our lives are habituated. But they are and that's our brains way of conserving energy in our brains way of getting us through the day without being completely exhausted. Is that anything we do repeatedly? The brain just goes okay, duly noted. Boop, boop. And it puts it in the back for like, you know, just Okay, now it's second nature. But the good part is, good habits can become second nature. But the bad part is unconscious habits, just kind of easy default ways of being also become second nature and very ingrained and entrenched, as well. So we break down the habit loop and we look at the cue, the craving, the response and the reward, there are certain things we can do to interrupt that loop to either add new habits we want to incorporate into our lives, or stop existing habits. And Tony Robbins will say, you can't just stop an existing habit, you have to replace it, replace it. So I find that that's probably true because stopping something leaves a vacuum for something else to come in. So you want to be able to choose what that thing is, right? We've often heard that folks who stopped one behavior like for example, and addictive behavior of any time often will just substitute a different addictive behavior or it right it may switch they may go from, you know, being addicted to one substance to them being addicted to food, for example, or gambling or whatever it might be. Right. So the way that we interrupt that habit loop is, is by looking at the habits that we, that we want to change or replace, I should say, and making those habits difficult, making them inconvenient. Right? So if, for example, your habit is that you're constantly checking your phone at dinner, and that's impacting your relationships, and I gotta believe that's the thing. You got to ask yourself, Okay, if the habit I want to replace is that I want to stop checking my phone at dinner, because it makes my spouse or my partner or my kids feel disconnected from me, how can I make that difficult? Okay, well, how can we let's look, you can put the phone across the room or in a drawer or upstairs, right? So again, you're putting barriers between you and that automatic behavior, right. And then similarly, you want the habits that you do want to be easier. So you design your environment, around making the resistance as low as possible between you and your new habit. We always hear this, put your gym shoes at the outlet, right? By your bed or pack your gym bag the night before or sleep in your gym clothes, or whatever it

Philip Pape 16:23

may be. I've had those myself, yes.

Monica Ricci 16:26

Removing the friction and the barrier to the ones you do want and putting in barriers to ones you don't want. That's your friend, think about.

Philip Pape 16:37

Right. So somebody could take a somebody can inventory their day, right? And think about those things that get in the way or cause friction or like you said, the the phone at the dinner table that I know it's causing a problem again, people people know this stuff, it's not like they're clueless about, it's just they get into a routine and day after day, they come home from work, they're tired, it's like, they don't want to think about it. Do you just you take a piece of paper and kind of write down the top three or four for the day? And then right next to it, either the replacement? Or how to make it harder? I mean, depending on which direction want to go, is it that simple?

Monica Ricci 17:09

It's, I would say do one or two at a time, one or two habits at a time, right? And I would say to ask yourself questions, ask yourself, don't just tell yourself, but actually ask yourself and inquire. Because what you're asking yourself, you're consulting, your Higher Self, your inner knowing. You're not just thinking it's kind of a little bit of a shift. Because if I look around the room, and I asked myself, what needs to be done in this room today, I'm engaging that part of myself. That is sort of the the, I guess it would be that yourself that can see things through a different lens than I got like

Philip Pape 17:49

a Socratic. Yeah, and you know, what needs to be done

Monica Ricci 17:53

today? Same thing, how can I make this harder? Or how can I make this easier. And also, asking someone else is helpful to getting different perspective can be helpful in that in that process. And also, we, if we look back at the ABCs of habit building, which is an actual behavior in celebration, which I'm pretty sure as BJ Fogg, the acknowledgement of every time you do or don't do the thing is really also an important part of it. Right? You get that celebration of Look at me, look what I did. I left my phone in the drawer, and I didn't die, right? At dinner time. Or I went to the gym, and I feel so great about myself. Yes, that high five, like, that's totally who I want to be today. And that ties into the identity, right? Who do we want it to be? It's not just the what are we doing? We are integrated beings, we are Mind Body, Soul spirit, right? So moving the body is really important to get the head to follow, right? And also integrating the head in the acknowledgement. What makes the body want to move more. So in this sort of spiral, it's, it's like a cycle. It's really lovely.

Philip Pape 19:08

Got it, who do we want to be? And I guess we can stack that onto getting our steps pacing around the house as we reflect on that. So so as one other technique comes up, I want to ask you about and that's habit stacking, where you're combining something indulgent, it may not be the best habit in and of itself, but you're combining it with a good habit, like the common the common common example is like watching Netflix while you walk on the treadmill or something. What do you think of that concept?

Monica Ricci 19:36

I think habit stacking is wonderful, because you're already in the habit of doing something. And so, using that as your cue, like if we go back to the clear model, the queue, which leads to the craving, right and so, you already have a queue in place. So when I do this, I will also do this, or after I do this which is solidify Do I always use brushing teeth, because there is nobody that I've ever spoken to who has a problem remembering to brush their teeth in the morning and at night, we've been doing it since we were tiny babies, right. So that's one of the most ingrained habits that we have, or taking a shower or anything else that you can do without thinking, if you can attach and stack a new habit onto an existing one. It's like, it's like a little link, right, and it connects it. And so eventually, you begin to view those things together. When I get up in the morning, I will brush my teeth, and then I'll meditate. For example, I'm just making that up, right? If you're not in the habit of meditating, because otherwise, what you do is you try to squeeze meditating in somewhere during the day when you have time. But when you attach it to something you're already doing, you're carving out a little piece of time for it, and then it happens everyday at the same time. And then once those two are solidified, you can actually stack another one on top. So by the time you're, you know, six weeks in, or however many weeks in, you've got a stack of little morning things that you do that create a super foundation for you to set your day upon.

Philip Pape 21:12

Yeah, that's awesome. And for people who think they don't have enough time, that that sounds like a great technique to because some of these things are done, you know, simultaneously, right? So they're more efficient. Actually, I was just talking to a client who likes to drink a lot of coffee. And we're talking about getting enough hydration not getting dehydrated. And so why don't we, every time you pour a cup of coffee, pour a glass of water, put some, you know, put some lemon and salt and make both together. And then when you're done with the coffee, now you have the water to kind of last you until until the next coffee, you know. Anyway, so I watched your YouTube video about micro stepping, which is sounds also in this realm of creating change. Can you explain that concept, I don't know if it's different than what we've been talking about, or we're not going,

Monica Ricci 21:51

it's not really different. It's just a matter of shifting your mindset from taking huge, massive actions all at once to taking tiny little actions and recognizing that those are incredibly valid, and that they are the way to get to big changes. I saw a really cool graphic not long ago, and it was just a little pencil drawing. And on one side, it had a picture of a ladder, a really tall ladder and a little stick figure guy at the top. And on the other side, it had a picture of a really tall ladder. And there were only about a quarter of the number of steps. And the steps were really far apart in the lawn guy was on the bottom, because he couldn't reach the first step. So the whole point was every step is important. You can't get to the top if you can't reach the first step. And so it's that idea. We've we've, we've so conditioned ourselves to believe if we're not going to the gym for an hour, five days a week, you know, hard driving that we that we're failing. But that's not how you get there. You don't go from zero to 100. You don't go from the standard American diet to carnivore in one day. But don't do it, you step your way there, right, you change in slow incremental parts. Same with any habit, you step your way there, because in the small steps, you create wins. And every time you create a win, your brain wants another win. And that's why it's important. The micro steps are important because you set yourself up to succeed multiple the day.

Philip Pape 23:26

That's so motivating. Monique, I love your energy, by the way, the microstepping it is a nuance in this discussion, because you know, up till now we've been talking about habits and replacing things. But if people realize that also if, if they feel that new habit or replacement is kind of a big jump, how do you break that back down to a much smaller jump, like if you're, if you're getting five hours of sleep today, you're not gonna get eight hours of sleep immediately next week, but you might get five and 15 right are five and 30. So I love that concept for people. Hey, this is Philip Pape. And if you feel like you've put in effort to improve your health and fitness, but aren't getting results, I invite you to apply for a one on one coaching to make real progress and get the body you desire. We'll work together to figure out what's missing so you can look better, perform better and feel better. Just go to wits & weights.com/coaching, to learn about my program and apply today. Now back to the episode.

Monica Ricci 24:24

Absolutely, yeah, you know, and the other thing too is if you if you look at how if you look at how you would approach teaching a child how to do something, and and then you look at how you approach teaching yourself how to do something new, very often it's very different. Why? Why would we Why would we expect a child to go from not being able to ride a bike to being able to ride a bike with no training wheels? Who wouldn't? We wouldn't we would never set our kid up for failure like that, would we? Yet we set ourselves up for failure all the time every day.

Philip Pape 24:55

Yep. You don't go from counting coins to algebra in one day. It's Six years of school, right? Yeah. Okay, awesome. So I guess I want to talk a little bit about fitness specifically. And then also some of the you mentioned, like very actionable strategies we can get into. And we love to talk about fitness and body composition through muscle building and fat loss on this show. Many people are trying to lose weight, right? And the traditional formula is, eat less, move more. You see people doing tons of cardio, constantly restricting themselves through dieting. Tell us what about something you call the exercise myth and what the right approach might be for someone trying to lose fat, maybe we get tied into all the habits we just talked about?

Monica Ricci 25:37

Okay, well, the first thing I need to share with you is that I am not a personal trainer, and I am a health coach. Among my other coaching, I also am a certified health coach. So I just like to put that out there because I am I just not in my wheelhouse to create training plans or anything, but what I will say about the exercise myth, which is people put their attention on the wrong process, or the wrong part of the process when they want to lose weight and get in shape. Most people that come to me for health coaching are frustrated. And when we have our initial conversation 99% of the time, one of the things that come up that comes out of their mouth is I should be what? exercising more Yes. And 99% of the time, they're wrong. What they should be doing is shifting the attention from the lack of exercise to the power they have over what goes in their giant hole in their face. For sure, right? Yes, so one of my one of my aunts, dropped 70. Now, not quite 70, she dropped her first 40. And in about three months, and I specifically said to her, do not worry about exercising, do not your knees are not gonna be able to take it right now at the weight she was at. And she was astonished that she could, you know, created this result in her life. And that was just really proved to her the exercise is wonderful as an adjunct. But it is not the magic that you're not doing. So many people have this belief in themselves, about themselves that if they could just get to the gym more, that would be the thing. And it's not, it's just not, and they don't often want to hear it. Because what it means is they have to change the thing they do all the time all day, which is the way they eat, it's actually easier to blame your lack of exercise than to look at what you have to do every day, we just make hard decisions every single meal. But that's part of self mastery. And that's part of an identity shift, right that we were talking about earlier is coming to grips with what is true and loving and accepting what is true. You don't have to like it. But you do have to accept it.

Philip Pape 27:55

Right. And so related to that mindset shift. I know, I've heard you mentioned that identity drives behaviors, and vice versa. So So what do you mean by that? And how does that apply to what we were just talking about? Well,

Monica Ricci 28:09

every behavior that we do is a direct reflection of what we believe about ourselves of who we believe we are, right? It's our identity leaks out of us in our actions. And so if we can change either one of silos, it's like an equation, right? If you change one, you begin to change the other. Or if you change this one, you begin to change this one. Ideally, you change them both at the same time. And then you have really start thinking moving. So if I believe that I'm a healthy person, if my identity is an athlete, if my identity is a focus, business leader, right, if that's my aspirational identity, then I get to ask myself, well, what would an athlete do? Or what would a healthy fit person eat? Or what would have focused business leaders show up like in this conversation, having those identities those aspirational identities as touchstones informs the granularity, and that's what we talked about earlier about going from broad to narrow. If my identity is up here on the top line, it trickles down into day to day to day actions and reinforce that yes, that is who I am. In fact, I just had a moment that I'd like to share with you. About a half an hour ago.

Philip Pape 29:28

Oh, you mean you just had them? Okay. Yeah.

Monica Ricci 29:30

It's not a moment, an identity moment. About a half an hour ago, I finished recording a one minute promo video for a speaking engagement that I'm doing in March at a conference. And I had to record it a few times because, you know, it's, you know, it's not perfect and polished. Yeah, right. I want it good. And I so I recorded it, I finished it. And as I was walking down the stairs, I said to myself out loud, man, I nailed that and And then I said, because that's what I do. I nail things. I am awesome on camera. And it just, I'm just reinforcing the identity that I am awesome on camera. And that that is my wheelhouse. And of course, I nailed it. That's what I do. Right? It's incredibly powerful to acknowledge yourself in that way, the same way that you would acknowledge your best friend, you know, high five, or meet slap on the back, or you do whatever, man, you nailed that thing. Why don't we not do that for ourselves? We got to do that every day. You nailed that? Oh, yeah. Love it. It's just like you to do this, just like you to know that thing. Whatever it is, it's just like you to get up and work out in the morning. It's just like you to choose this incredibly healthy meal and really enjoy it. Like that's who you are. Yeah, that's how behavior and identity swirl together. One reinforces the other.

Philip Pape 30:55

Yeah, I love that. And and it's, it's, it's a form of visualization. But it's very powerful, right? Because then it leads to you saying, Okay, what do I need to do to get there? And I know, when I work with clients, we talk about a vision for the future, what do you look like in a year, one of my clients, and I want to, I'm going to be devastatingly gorgeous. Next year, I'm going to be devastating and gorgeous. I'm like, that's what that's what we're gonna do, then that's what you are. And we just need to close the gap to get there. Love that. So there's another thing you talk about in terms of being an outlier. And I don't know if you mean that in a. So for example, we talked about research based fitness and evidence based fitness here. And you know, most research is done and you have, most data points fall in a normal curve, right, like a bell curve that people are familiar with. And mostly, very few people fall at the tails of those curves. But the people that do tend to be the ones that are more successful, like the fact that only 5% of people keep their weight off, you know, after five years, and they lose it. And so almost being weird, in that sense of being an outlier is often a good thing, I would say, and you talked about the courage to be an outlier. So I'd love to hear your perspective on that.

Monica Ricci 31:59

Well, um, as of today, let's just say, almost 90% of the American population is metabolically unhealthy. That is some scary stuff. So if you don't want to go down that road, you got to do something different than the vast majority of people are doing, which will make you an outlier. And that's all well and good on paper. But what does that look like day to day, that's where the coaching comes in. That's where the understanding that if you want something different, you got to do something different. And when it becomes difficult to do is the most important time to do it. That's where you show up as an outlier socially. We have got to as individuals, embrace the fact that no one is responsible for us, but us, and that it is up to us to protect what we want for our lives, because no one else will protect it like we will, if I go to a social situation, whatever it is, you know, we have in November, what do we have coming up the holidays, holidays, right? So many people are going to show up at holiday parties, whether it's office parties, friends, neighbors, whatever, there are going to be a group of people who go with the flow, and who use the excuse. It's the holidays, I didn't want to be rude, I gotta have a cocktail, I got to this, I couldn't turn that I couldn't I had to as if they're as if someone else is in control of their actions. And then there is a group of people who will say internally, I can come here and I can choose to only eat the shrimp, and the sausage, and the egg, the deviled eggs. And I can have a Diet Coke or seltzer water, or half glass of wine instead of three glasses. I choose to have this Yes, I choose to have these things. And the reason that I choose to have these things is in service of my future self, who I love. And I love my future self more than I love what anyone at this gathering thinks of me. That's it right there. That's it. I love my future self and my present self more than what anyone else thinks of me. Yeah, if you can embrace and hold that in your hand and your heart and your mind and your soul and your spirit, becoming an outlier and doing something that is different, strange or unfamiliar to other people is a piece of cake.

Philip Pape 34:32

And that's often what if you are doing the right thing it often is it does make you an outlier, doesn't it? I mean, there's so much pressure from friends, society, family, social media, and usually the norm is not what you have to be doing and what you have to be doing as hard as you said. It's hard and there's kind of a converse, converse to that. That's maybe all just as insidious. You're talking about the going to a social outing or a holiday party. And it's saying that I let's say you're on a diet and you tell you yourself. I can't I can't I can't that's almost the same thing. Right, as opposed to saying I choose not to. That's just what I was thinking of. Yeah, that's, that's great advice. Monica.

Monica Ricci 35:09

We, you know, I love this whole conversation, Philip about, about balance. And so so there's this thing that I use in my coaching, and I've learned it, I learned it through the heroic coaching program that we're in now. And I rely on it so heavily, almost every day. And it's what Aristotle calls the golden mean. Or the virtuous mean, and it's being in the, it's being in the middle. So there's the the idea of extremes on each side, which is, I can't write. And then over here is I can, or I will do whatever I want. And, but then there's the middle, which is I choose, so I can do whatever I want. I choose to do whatever I whatever I choose. So if I choose to abstain, that's great. But if I choose to have a slice of cheesecake, that's great, too, as long as I'm choosing it, as long as I am mindfully, deliberately choosing it. And then along with choosing it comes the ability to say, I chose that I will not feel bad about choosing it, I will not punish myself, I will not beat myself up, I will not go down this road. Because when we go down that road, it's because we didn't choose it. It's because we fell into it as a victim. Right? Yeah,

Philip Pape 36:30

yeah, for sure. No, I love that balance. And I was thinking of, you know, hedonism on one side. And what's the opposite of asceticism or restriction on the other side, right? What about something else came to mind there with regarding to choosing? Oh, so a lot of people have trouble trouble choosing in the moment, I think that's a struggle that people face when they're especially dealing with ingrained habits related to food and their relationship with food. And if they went to a party like that, just being thrown into the party and say, Now go make choices may may be difficult for somebody who has struggled with this their whole life. Is there a pre planning that goes on to kind of develop the habit of knowing that you can choose if that makes sense? Absolutely. So there's

Monica Ricci 37:13

this thing, again, I'm referring back to the heroic coaching program that I'm in right now, which is about to wrap up. So that'll be another fun certification that I'll have under my belt. But there's this thing that we talked about in heroic, which is, it's a four letter acronym called whoop, whoop, and it is W O P. And this is exactly what you can do to prepare for almost anything, whether it's a project or whether it's just going to a holiday party. W is what is the outcome? Right? What what are we what do we want the outcome to be? Well, I want the outcome to be that I want to feel great after I leave this party and not feel like I've completely abandoned myself. Okay, great. What is the what is the first Oh, is? Oh, actually, sorry? W is what? Oh, is the outcome? What is the wish? What is the wish that I want to do this party and feel great? What is the outcome? Which is, which is why do I want to feel that way? Okay, well, because I like myself, mastery, I want to stay on and maintain the progress that I've already made. Okay, great. What's the obstacle? That's the next oh, what's the obstacle that you're gonna encounter? And the P is how do you plan for it. So if you can anticipate what's coming up around the curve, you're not going to get surprised by it. If you're driving along at night, and you're around a curve, and all of a sudden, you run that curve, and there's a bear sitting in the middle of the road, that's a split second decision that you are not prepared for, and you're probably going to crash. But if somebody told you, hey, about a mile up the road, you're going to hit a curb, and there's going to be a bear around there. What are you going to do, you're going to drive differently, it's the same thing. So if I know that my weakness is what up sweets, or whatever it is, I'm going to prepare in a different way to go to that party, I'm going to fill myself up in advance with the things that I want fats and proteins, right, I'm going to go there not hungry, so that my resolve is higher, I'm going to make choices mindfully in the moment to do proteins. And if I feel I can, I'm going to mindfully choose to have a little bit of a cookie or one cookie, instead of completely losing it losing all my control, and then feeling terrible about myself. So absolutely, seeing around the corners of your life gives you a tremendous amount of agency in the way that your life plays out.

Philip Pape 39:27

This is so awesome. Like I love this model. And I'm going to use that and I'm gonna throw your name and when I talk to clients about the many ways to do this, because managing risk, I think of it as managing risk or having a food plan or having a strategy going in. But the way you put it of hey, we're in control, we know things are going to happen. We've been around the block, you know, for those of us who've been on the planet for three, four or five decades, we know what's going to happen at a party. It's like not like you know Christmas is coming. So did you save up to buy the gifts it's going to happen? What are you going to do about it to take total control of your situation, because it is up to you, even if it's a little hard, but eventually becomes a habit. Awesome. Okay, good stuff. So, I know you do the Self Mastery coaching, we've been talking about self mastery. And this really helps people, I think you call it upgrade their life experience, which is another I like that visual upgrade their life experience. You talked a little bit about the coaching, but earlier you said we're gonna get into some more maybe strategies, are there other models or details you want to get into on that?

Monica Ricci 40:29

Well, I wanted to talk a little bit about what we touched on earlier, which is one, which is the three components of the identity, the identity to behavior sort of line, right? When you connect identity to behavior, there's a thing in the middle, which is the the attribute, and I'll give you a very concrete example, if your identity, your aspirational identity, let's say is, let's just use athlete because again, it's relatable, is athlete, and the behavior that an athlete would do would be to strength train three times a week and do a little bit of cardio two days a week. Well, in between those is our ways of being our attributes, right? So an athlete might have attributes of consistent, that's an attribute, right? That that would be great that would that would support those behaviors, and an attribute of positive and attribute of hopeful an attribute of, let's say, courageous, right, you get to you get to assign to your identity, athlete, all these ways of being so that you show up in those ways to execute on the actual action.

Philip Pape 41:49

It's not that you necessarily have these strengths to begin with, we're again looking in the future like we will, and we will embody these things, okay?

Monica Ricci 41:57

Yes, but here's the thing we get to embody, we get to have any attribute we want, just by claiming it today, I will be calm. Today, this morning, I will be strong. That's one of my attributes that I select every day. Because under my identity of athlete, strong, consistent, disciplined, those are attributes which lend themselves to supporting the execution of the strength training the cardio though, whatever, it's going to be the bicycling or whatever, right? So I wish I could remember who said, assume a virtue and it is yours. If I if I say to myself today, I am strong, confident, disciplined. That's what I'm going to embody today. That's who I want to be today. That helps me to remember why I'm even in this endeavor of self mastery. Right? Am I being strong right now? Am I being disciplined? Am I being consistent? Or because? Because those things are a tangible way to embody the identity of an athlete, for example. And then they translate down to well, what would a consistent strong discipline athlete do right now? Get out of bed? Right. I have this conversation with myself almost every morning. Yeah, what would it what would a courageous champion do right now, even though it's warm in this bed? Right. greatest champion would get up right now? Why? Why would she get up because she's committed to being courageous champion for who? for herself? Okay.

Philip Pape 43:32

Yeah, I love that. The

Monica Ricci 43:34

conversations we have with ourselves are the very most important ones.

Philip Pape 43:38

Yeah. And we have total control over them, right. I mean, I don't know if it was the Stoic philosophers or Mother Teresa or somebody who said I like no matter how everything, no matter how bad everything is around you, like the one thing you control is what's in your mind. Right. It's your thoughts.

Monica Ricci 43:53

Absolutely. And you know, it's interesting that you said the Stoic philosophers because I keep referring to this coaching program that I'm about wrapped up with and, and it is based on stoic philosophy and modern science. Okay. So just to be clear, and you know, Mark Devine and David Goggins and all these, you know, kind of modern heroes, combined with Aristotle and Socrates and Epictetus and Seneca

Philip Pape 44:19

cheetahs. Yeah, Marcus Aurelius all those guys. Good stuff. Yeah, I love I love stoicism. It's great. I mean, if anything is is worth inspiring you, you know, to think about how to take control and be in the moment what you're talking about. It's that. So we've covered a lot of this. Is there anything else we're like related to creating these significant shifts in mindset that come to mind that we haven't discussed?

Monica Ricci 44:43

I don't know if there's anything we haven't discussed? Probably a lot we haven't discussed in what we wanted to cover today. I think we have been covered. But I think if I would, if you were asking me for closing remarks, I would say I would say that to today. And indeed not today even but in this moment is the only place that you have any influence over over your future in this moment, and and every choice you make in this moment, gets you closer to or farther away from the person that you want to be. And that's a really great reminder to kind of carry with you during the day,

Philip Pape 45:20

in this moment, and Today's a new day. Don't worry about what happened in the past. Let's do it. Let's get up and make it happen. Awesome. Thank you so much. Well, Monica, where can people learn about all this? Great information and you and your work?

Monica Ricci 45:34

Well, Twitter is my social media boyfriend and I am at Monica Ricki on there. And, and Instagram, I am at remaking Monica. And so I would love to connect with anyone who wants to reach out.

Philip Pape 45:47

Awesome, so I'll include that information in the show notes. When the episode comes out, and people can can take go click on that. It was awesome having you on I love talking all this mindset. You inspired me. It's great because I want to be thinking about these things and my clients and everyone listening. Thanks again for coming on the show. Monica

Monica Ricci 46:03

was a pleasure to be here. Thank you, Philip.

Philip Pape 46:07

Thanks for listening to the show. Before you go, I have a quick favorite ask. If you enjoy the podcast, let me know by leaving a five star review in Apple podcasts and telling others about the show. Thanks again for joining me Philip Pape in this episode of Wits & Weights. I'll see you next time and stay strong.

Philip Pape 1/10/23 Philip Pape 1/10/23

Ep 40: Everything You Need to Know About Fat Loss (Simple Strategies for a Fitter, Leaner Body)

Whether you're trying to lose extra weight, switch to a fat loss phase after building muscle, get lifestyle lean, or finally achieve success with your new year’s resolution, this episode will help you get there.

You will learn everything you need to know about fat loss so you can lose the weight and keep it off sustainably, efficiently, and in a way that actually improves how you look and feel for the long term.

This is NOT a “rapid weight loss” prescription. This is a “fat loss for life” approach that I use with clients that you can use on your own with a little bit of knowledge, practice, and accountability.

Also, I'm starting my own 12-week fat loss phase the week this episode goes live and will be adhering to these principles, so if you want to follow along and see updates of my journey, make sure to join our free Wits & Weights Facebook community. I also made a Fat Loss for Life Guide I can send you after joining the group.

Just check out the links below to join our free community or apply for one-on-one coaching. Enjoy the episode!

Topics discussed in this episode:

The 3 principles that make fat loss possible, easier, and maintainable
The most important behavior to maintain muscle during fat loss
Which macro is the "body composition" macro and how much you need
What data to collect to maximize your results and consistency
What to do before you actually start a calorie deficit
How fast you can and should lose weight
The most important consideration when selecting foods during a fat loss phase
The easiest way to boost your metabolism during fat loss
What you're doing TOO MUCH of, and what to do instead
The simplest way to reduce overall stress and also belly fat!
How to avoid diet fatigue

RELATED LINKS

Download the Fat Loss for Life guide that goes with this episode by joining the Wits & Weights Facebook community
Download the MacroFactor app (use affiliate code WITSANDWEIGHTS to extend your trial by an extra week)
Join our Facebook community if you'd rather watch the video

🎙️ ABOUT THE SHOW
At Wits & Weights, we help you achieve optimal health that fits your lifestyle—without excessive dieting, cardio, or food restrictions. Philip Pape, podcast host and head nutrition coach, helps high-achieving people burn fat, get lean, feel energized, and project confidence in their lives through one-on-one nutrition and lifestyle coaching at witsandweights.com.

👉 Just go to witsandweights.com/coaching to connect with me.
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Transcript

Philip Pape 00:08

Philip Pape 00:30

Welcome to another episode of Wits & Weights. This is another live training in the Wits & Weights Facebook community, which is totally free, it gives you access to lots of free valuable content, challenges, guides, nutrition, blueprints, even early access to podcast episodes. And you can see me posting regularly to follow along with my upcoming fat loss journey if you would like. So just click the link in the show notes to join. Again, it's the Wits & Weights, Facebook community, which you can also just search.

Philip Pape 01:03

And my name is Philip Pape. I'm a certified nutrition coach, body composition expert and founder of Wits & Weights. And as always, I would be very grateful for your support. And the easiest way to do that is to submit a five star rating and review on whatever platform you use to listen to your podcast, and then tell others about the podcast if you find it helpful. So with that, let's get into today's topic, which is everything you need to know about fat loss. Now this is going live in January 2023. When everyone's making new year's resolutions, the most frequent one being to lose weight by starting a weight loss or fat loss phase. And we're going to make a distinction between what we mean by weight loss versus fat loss.

Philip Pape 01:51

Whether you're trying to lose extra weight, or you're trying to switch to a fat loss phase after building muscle like I'm doing, or you want to get lifestyle lean or shredded, or you finally want to just achieve success with your New Year's resolution. I think this episode will help you get there. And you may want to listen to it a second time and take notes to to really let it sink in. So I think you're going to learn everything you need to know about fat loss so you can lose the weight and keep it off sustainably efficiently. And in a way that actually improves how you look and feel for the long term. And I realize everything saying that this is everything you need to know is a presumption of statement. But when I was preparing this episode, I tried to think of all the things that really matter, based on experience based on the evidence based on other experts that I listened to or watch and read so that you can refer to this episode in the future as sort of a definitive guide. Now, this is not a rapid weight loss prescription. This is a fat loss for life approach that I use with clients that you can use on your own that I use on myself. And if you have a little bit of knowledge, practice and accountability, you can incorporate this, these practices. As a body composition expert, I work with clients who want to eat more and enjoy their lifestyle, but they also want to improve their physique. They want to have more energy, I want to have more self confidence. And this really requires a focused, disciplined and evidence based approach to fat loss, that prioritizes strength training and body composition. That's where it's at. That's where the magic happens. And you're gonna hear a lot of emphasis on that today. You may have heard some or all of these principles and strategies before, but I'm going to lay them out in a way where you can refer to this episode in the future as a fat loss blueprint if you ever get stuck. And as I mentioned before, I am following my own 12 week fat loss phase starting this month, and I will be adhering to these principles and the strategies. So if you want to follow along and see updates of my journey, make sure to join our free Wits & Weights Facebook community, I also made a fat loss for life guide that I can send you after you join the group associated with this episode. So just check out the links in the show notes to join our free community or to apply for a one on one coaching if you need that extra boost of support. Okay, so before even considering fat loss, let's review three principles

Philip Pape 04:22

that we are going to adhere to throughout this process three principles that I think govern a lot of why we do it this way and what the strategies are. So the first principle is that building muscle increases your metabolism and that's going to make fat loss easier. Muscle burns more calories and fat. Having more muscle allows you to carry more weight and be leaner but have a higher BMR higher baseline metabolism. More muscle means you're more active more muscle means you can push more in the gym. More muscle means higher bone density. More muscle means deeper sleep and additional recovery. and all of these mean, easier fat loss. So that's the first principle is that building muscle makes fat loss easier. Principle number two, you can't improve your body composition without building, or at least preserving muscle. Okay, so this is sort of tied in with principle number one. We don't, we don't just want to lose weight, right? We want to lose fat. And the vast majority of people we're talking 95% of people or more, have been doing it the wrong way, right? You've been either crash dieting, or dieting very quickly, without regard for protein training steps, any of these other things, potentially do a lot of cardio. And every time you lose 20 3040 pounds, you lose a lot of muscle in the process. I mean, I've said this many times before, but I can't overstate it enough. If you lost 30 pounds, doing it that way, you might be losing 15 pounds of muscle. And it's easy to lose fat and muscle. It's hard and it takes time to build muscle back. So let's not lose it in the first place. Okay, so that concept of body fat overshooting, which I've talked about before, and I think one of my recent episodes was a replay on Paul Hinton's podcast, where I talked about it as well. The idea that every time you lose weight, you lose muscle. And every time you gain weight back, you're gaining mainly fat, and you're constantly getting worse in terms of body composition. And what we want to do is principle number one, build muscle. And then principle number two, preserve, build or preserve that muscle as part of the fat loss phase. So if you're doing it for the very first time, if you've never built muscle, yes, you can get leaner and improve your body composition, just by doing what we're going to talk about today. And focusing on fat loss and holding whatever muscle you have, it's not much muscle you have I get it, but you're gonna hold on to it, which you've never really done before, when doing a traditional approach or crash diet type approach, or a restrictive diet, okay, now, this is going to get you what I'm going to call skinny lean, not skinny fat, right? skinny fat is what's been happening over the years of yo yo dieting when you lost fat and muscle, and you keep getting what seems to be fluffier, even if you're at the same weight, I'm talking about skinny lean, meaning wouldn't cut fat hold on your muscle, and you're going to reveal some of that little bit of muscle you have. However, I would suggest going back to principle number one, building muscle first at some point, and then revealing that muscle with fat loss and periodized in your training, and periodized in your nutrition. That's the way I work with my clients at least. And I highly recommend it. But either way, we're going to at least preserve the muscle we have principle number three, okay, you cannot maintain your results, your fat loss results using traditional restrictive dieting approaches. We don't want to arbitrarily cut out food groups, like all carbs, or pick a one size fits all low calorie target, you know, like a, like an 800 Calorie target that optive via and these other damaging, highly dangerous programs use. We don't want to rely on a packaged food service where we don't really even know how to make our own meals. And I'm not talking about food delivery. Where do you still make the meals and they serve the ingredients I'm talking about? Programs are you spending hundreds of dollars a month and they're delivering all your food and telling you to eat it this specific way. And then we don't want to use something like fasting as a primary fat loss technique. It's a tool in the toolbox for certain people, but it's generally not something you need. And it's not the you know, sure way to to fat loss. So those those things I just mentioned, that's just a few of them are all short term fixes. I guarantee that you will lose weight on those, but at a huge cost to your metabolism, to your behaviors to your lifestyle, and really to your ability to maintain results once those diets are done, or whatever approach you're taking. Because then it's like what do I do now? Instead, we need a flexible approach, right? We call this flexible dieting, a flexible approach that lets you enjoy Dining Out social events, food and drinks you prefer and maybe not those that you don't prefer. And something that works whether you are losing, maintaining or gaining weight. So in other words, we are going to learn the skill of manipulating your nutrition to fit whatever dietary pattern makes sense for you and your goals. And by definition, this can change with your goals. So it's a flexible approach. So those are the three principles. Okay, principle one, building muscle makes fat loss easier. Principle two, you can't improve body composition without building or holding on to muscle. And number three, you can't maintain your results using a crazy restrictive prescription. So that brings us to the strategies. Okay, and I'm going to start with the first three strategies, which I think you're going to want to put in place Before you even think about dieting, and by dieting, I mean going into a calorie deficit. Okay, so the first strategy, start strength training now, and always train as if you're building muscle, even when you're dieting. So I'm gonna, I'm gonna go through what I mean by others. But basically, if you're not strength training, look to do that first. Seriously, I am, I am that guy who, who says strength training is so pivotal to this, even as a nutrition coach, that I want you to be doing that from the beginning, because it makes everything else work better, it makes it easier, and so on. So no matter what people tell you, if your goal is to lose fat, to improve body composition, you have to have a strong muscle building signal, period. Refer back to principle number two, that you have to build a preserve muscle to prioritize fat loss, or you're just going to lose muscle defeating the entire purpose of this exercise. Even when you're losing weight, if you have a strong muscle building signal, that is what's going to retain your muscle, that's the most important thing. Even more important than protein, believe it or not, protein has a lot of tolerance behind it. shocking is that maybe, to hear from me, you know, I've come to realize from from the evidence that the training signal is the is the most important thing. Our goal when we train, whether we're gaining or losing weight doesn't matter. Our goal is always muscular tension, and progressive overload, meaning we have to prioritize a mode of lifting that has high intensity, intensity, meaning meaning weight on the bar, relatively heavy for us, 60 7080 90% of our max, which would put you into a range of somewhere between, I don't know two to six reps as your baseline, before you start stacking other types of rep ranges and movements on to that. And that's going to that's going to give you the muscular tension you need, we're not necessarily talking going to failure all the time, we're talking about recruiting as much muscle mass as possible. And then giving ourselves the chance to increase that weight over time, or increase the reps over time for progressive overload, even when we're in a fat loss phase. Okay, because when we're in a fat loss phase, we're not getting much nutrition coming in, we're having a stressor on our body. And there's going to come a point where it's going to be very hard to make further gains or any build any muscle. And all we're trying to do is hold on to the muscle. So what we need to do is lift probably three or four days per week, I would say at least two but almost anybody would benefit optimally from three or four days per week. So that's like three to five hours in the gym with a high load based program.

Philip Pape 12:48

foundationally based on the compound lifts, right, the squat, the deadlift, the bench press. And then I also loved the overhead press.

Philip Pape 12:56

I actually posted in the community group, not long, I think it was last week about my own switch from in my programming from a four day power building program where I was going an hour and a half to the gym, to a three day basic barbell programming, but in a low rep range to give me plenty of stimulus to hold on to that muscle during the dieting phase. So it's probably the opposite of what a lot of you are thinking, you're thinking, oh, I need to go with, you know, more cardio, more endurance, more reps to burn the fat. No, we need to go heavy to give the stimulus to muscle so that you maintain that muscle. Alright, so that's strategy number one starts training right now. And always train as if you're building muscle, even when you're dieting, and it's hard to do. So. Number two, consume sufficient protein to maintain muscle while dieting you knew this was going to be next. And by the way, you're gonna hear a lot in here, a lot of detail. I'm going to summarize all this later in the episode, you can skip to that if you want, you're gonna miss a lot of nuance and context, just warning you. But you will have that. So consume sufficient protein to maintain muscle on it. Now protein is what I call, or a lot of people call the body composition macro, right? It's the one that lets you really control your body composition. Now studies have shown time and time again that a higher protein diet leads to more lean mass retention, and more fat loss during weight loss. So it's very well established. Also, protein naturally leads to eating more whole foods. It's a nice side effect, because you're trying to get all this protein from animal sources like meat, eggs, dairy, and also from plant sources. You know, legumes, some grains have proteins, vegetables that have proteins and so on, kind of forces you into making choices that incorporate more whole foods, which is a great side effect. Protein also forces you to establish appropriate meal frequency and timing because To get enough protein, you have to eat a certain amount of times per day. And then that forces you to kind of time your meals throughout the day to optimize muscle building and muscle retention, which, which is simply another way to say, of just having enough protein spread evenly throughout the day. And then it also crowds out other foods that don't serve your goals, which kind of tied to the first thing I said about it gets you to eat more whole foods. Now, I suggest building your protein habit as follows First, just get protein every time you eat. Okay, a lot of people aren't doing that, right now, if you think about your three or four meals a day is their meal, it just doesn't have protein for a lot of people. That's breakfast, right? Bagel muffin cereal, oatmeal. I mean, oatmeal has a little protein, but it's like trace amounts. And you realize, well, if you don't have eggs, or cottage cheese, or meat, or even a protein shake, whatever, you're probably not getting protein at that meal. So the first thing is just get protein at every meal, then we step it up, and we say, okay, let's make sure to eat four or five times a day, where there's always protein, and one or two of those maybe just protein and maybe just a bowl of Greek yogurt, right, and maybe just a whey protein shake. And then the next step up from that is to actually track your protein, which is going to be in the third strategy I'm going to cover in a second. So the goal of how much protein to get, I've said it many times, and I'm gonna continue to use the same window that I think is supported by the evidence. And that is 0.7 to one gram per pound of target bodyweight. So if you a 250, and you want to lose 50 pounds and get to 200, you're aiming for between 140 and 200 grams of protein, pretty straightforward. And it's a big range, if you're on the lower end of that range of most people are perfectly fine. Okay, I'm not going to be a zealot about the one gram per pound, if that's just such a far cry from where you are today. Or if you're dieting, and we're talking about fat loss, and you don't want to have so much protein that it crowds out the fats and carbs. So there's a fine balance there. Now leaner individuals, or people further into a diet may need to actually have higher protein, just to continue to retain as much muscle as possible. That's where we get worried about the muscle loss accelerating. So keep that in mind. So that was a strategy number two is to consume sufficient protein. Strategy number three, is checking my notes here. Strategy number three is to use data to maximize your results and stay consistent. Okay, so notice I'm making the strategy somewhat generic. And then I'm diving in with specifics that I recommend. But the principle of the strategy is that the more information you have about your body and how it's changing, the more you can respond to it, and continue to make progress toward your results. As well as stay consistent and hold yourself accountable. Whether you're working with a coach or not. Having that data will give you its feedback, right? It says, Okay, I'm not doing what I need to be doing to get from here to there. And I have a process to follow in the data I'm gathering every day is telling me how I'm tracking on that process. So here's what I recommend. I recommend tracking at least calories and protein. But go ahead and just track all your macros, because it's so easy to do with technology today. Why limit yourself to calories and protein? That's my opinion. Having said that, if you know your calories, and you know your protein, to track calories, you're going to have to track the calories and the food, which generally comes along with the macros. And then you're going to know what your fats and carbs are anyway, even if you don't care where you fall on those fats and carbs, you feel me there. So it kind of all works out anyway, because calories and protein are what's most important to hit. The fats and carbs are much more flexible. Now what I recommend, I recommend an app called macro factor. So in the past, I've lately suggested it more and more I'm coming to find that not only does everyone I know on this planet who've used it preferred over all the other apps. I've seen coaches who are just diehard My Fitness Pal users and chronometer or RP users switch to macro factor and they're all like, okay, we're not going back. It's just that helpful. Like, I rarely see something that's designed with what we are trying to do so clearly in mind, right, the developers, the team behind it, the owners, the community is just all toward this. So I'm an evangelist for it. I admit, macro factor, I do have a code and affiliate code that will give you an extra free week in your free trial, although you're gonna end up wanting to buy it anyway. But you can use my code Wits & Weights, when you sign up for the free trial. It also supports me so I really appreciate that. But heck, I'm a user. I've used it since day one. I still use it. I'm going to continue using it in my upcoming fat loss phase that you're going to follow along in our group with if you want And all my clients use it. So everybody that I recommend use this. And when people reach out to me asking for help, like I'm having trouble with my protein, I'm having trouble with this. First question is, are you logging? Are you tracking? Because how do you know what you're eating the quantities, the macros the balance, unless you track we are terrible, terrible at estimating calories. That's just a fact. And as much as you want to do intuitive eating, you can't do it without the intuition developed first, that skill of okay, I'm going to intuitively eat do I even know how many calories or macros are in this food on my plate? No, generally you don't, unless you've tracked it. So use something like macro factor to track your macros and calories. And then the other thing you want to track is your weight. Okay. Now, I know there's a lot of coaches and a lot of programs that are all about getting rid of the scale and not using the scale. And, you know, especially I note, a lot of them are marketed toward women, like, you know, start, you don't have to obsess over the scale, etc. I'm, I'm not going to trash any of those whatsoever, because the principle behind them is totally sound that you don't have to weigh yourself to put in the principles for fat loss. Totally true. However, I'm a big fan of understanding what's going on with your body specifically, why do we get bloodwork? Why do we get our blood pressure checked? Right? Or why do we measure our resting heart rate? Why do we measure our steps? Why do we measure our lifts in our in the gym, so that we know what's happening. And we can make adjustments. Same thing with weight, I would recommend weighing as frequently as you can, ideally every day. And the reason I support weighing yourself every day is because it makes it a habit that you start just not having to think about meaning you actually start to reduce your obsession with a scale because it's now a daily thing. And then the second part of that is you see the number fluctuating up and down and up and down and up and down. And you realize, heck, this number doesn't mean a whole lot in the short term. And instead, I need to know what's happening over roughly a three week period to see how my body's responding. So if you're using an app like macro factor, it uses something called trend weight, which is a 20 day exponential moving average. And I tell you that and it's no secret, because you can reverse engineer and they've admitted it, you can do this in a spreadsheet, you could do it in Excel or Google Sheets, if you just want to do it on your own, track your weight every single day and apply a 20 day moving average Exponential Moving Average formula. Okay, why am I telling you all this, because at the end of the day, the daily weight on the scale, isn't that important at all, it's the 234 week change in your weight, that's important. Once you have your calories in, and your weight, which is the output of your energy, then that will let you monitor your current daily metabolism, you know, daily or weekly, whatever resolution you're using. If you use macro factors every day, if you do it on your own manually with the spreadsheets roughly every week, you're gonna get some decent data. And macro factual calls this dynamic maintenance. And what this allows you to do is see exactly how your body is responding to everything, to your activity, to your food, everything you do, so that each week you can adjust your calorie intake and keep progressing toward your fat loss goals. So that really is kind of the crux of why data is important, isn't it? Alright, so I just shared the first three strategies. And I want you to put these in place before you continue to the remaining strategies. So number one, start strength training properly. Number two, consume sufficient protein. And number three, use data, track your calories and macros and track your weight. So that you have what you need to make adjustments and to stay consistent. Because we truly are trying to do this as effectively and efficiently as possible as quickly as we can. We're not trying to you know, go for months and months and months and hope that we lose weight and fat because nobody wants to be hanging around that long in a diet.

Philip Pape 24:14

Hey, this is Philip Pape. And if you feel like you've put in effort to improve your health and fitness but aren't getting results, I invite you to apply for a one on one coaching to make real progress and get the body you desire. We'll work together to figure out what's missing so you can look better, perform better and feel better. Just go to wits & weights.com/coaching to learn about my program and apply today. Now back to the episode. So once you've used those, once you've done those first three things, we get to strategy number four, is to spend time finding your true maintenance before you actually start the diet before you go into a calorie deficit. I would say four weeks is usually a good timeframe for a lot of people. And if you're using macro factor, you don't have to do anything like reverse dieting or You slowly up the calories over time, and it kind of takes forever to get there. No, just eat at your dynamic maintenance, you're going to know week to week what your maintenance is, maybe you overshot a little, maybe you under shot, you're not going to gain a whole bunch of weight, it's going to keep you roughly in your maintenance level. And in about three weeks, maybe four weeks, you'll know exactly where you need to be to start your diet. Alright, so the, all of these prerequisites are going to help you they're going to set you up for success. And they're going to set you up for retaining that muscle and losing that fat. All right, strategy. So strategy number four that I just mentioned, is spend time finding true maintenance. And if use macro factor, it's going to happen pretty quickly. Number five, is now we're gonna go into the diet. So this is critical on like all that restrictive diets out there, or the names diets where you're not counting calories. And you really don't know how quickly or dieting or slowly maybe you're going to slowly we're going to use a known moderately aggressive deficit, moderately aggressive as the word I like to use, meaning we want it to be aggressive enough that we get it done quickly, that we get the fat loss done as quickly as we can, but moderate enough to avoid losing muscle, and also to keep it sustainable, right, because if it's too if it's too aggressive, you may also feel like you're suffering, because you're just not eating anywhere close to where you would feel good. So it's that fine balance between, get it over with and keep it going. Right. So the the, what am I trying to say here, if you're training, and if you've got the protein, you're in a great position. And what we're going to aim for here is 0.25 to 1% of your weight per week, I find I found through experience and working with clients that 0.5 or 0.75%, kind of in the middle is the sweet spot where they can do it consistently and see the fat fall off, but not feel like they're suffering. And it's just a constant like, oh my god, I binged and I couldn't help myself, because I'm so hungry, you know, we don't want to be in that state. So the range is point two, five to one, find a sweet spot. So for example, I'm, I'm at 185. And I'm going to go pretty aggressive at maybe point eight, or maybe one person, maybe the full 1%, because I want to get it over with in 12 weeks. But I'm also dieting on way more calories than I used to. Because I've added muscle you see, this is where it comes in handy. Because I can diet on something like 2200 calories and actually lose 1% Somebody else might have to go down to 1400 calories, it's a big difference in your ability to do the diet. So number five is using a moderately aggressive energy deficit. Number six is to select foods to prioritize appetite management. So this is the only strategy I'm actually talking about the food you eat. And you'll see why I think this is really important. We, you when you think of named diets like keto or vegetarianism, or whatever, they're all about cutting things out. Or there's good and bad foods or there's clean and dirty you know, the you know, clean eating or just just just cutting something right so something crazy. So it's not about that. What we want to do is select foods that we prefer that meet our calories and macros, but that minimize our hunger as much as possible. I think appetite management is one of the primary drivers during fat loss of selecting foods that meet all your other needs. Protein micronutrients, hydration, you know, calories and mitigate the most important adaptation that negatively affects us during a diet which is hunger really, hungers? The big thing? Yes, adherence is important. And all these other things I'm talking about have to do with adherence. But managing hunger is probably the biggest thing that comes from hormonal downregulation when we're dieting because all of our all of our hormones are leptin, ghrelin, cortisol, thyroid, everything, they all tend to gang up on you to make you want to eat and survive because you're like, come on, you're not bringing in enough calories, we're gonna have to keep pulling from your fat cells. Well, that's what we want. That's the trade off we want is the fat cells to shrink. But as a result, we get these other symptoms and we get some adaptation. So we're going to select foods and minimize hunger as much as possible, which then generally results in you eating a wide, diverse variety of Whole Foods very much like protein gets you to eat more whole foods. So what does this look like okay, foods that are higher and fiber, fruits, vegetables, whole grains, making smart decisions to say go from you know, white bread to whole grain bread or go to white rice to brown rice or you know, start eating Oh, For quinoa, right, substituting starches and grains for vegetables where you need it. So the further you are into the fat loss phase where you have low calories to do to work with, you know, if you're dieting on 1600 or 1500 calories, you don't really have a lot of carbs in there anyway. And the carbs that you do you want to get full from. So you're going to want to prioritize vegetables, or even something like potatoes, potatoes are very high and in fullness, as long as you don't put butter and sour cream all over them. So substituting vegetables in using something like vegetable soups where you're combining the benefit of water and hydration, filling you up with filling vegetables like zucchini, for example, zucchini, tomatoes, and so on. On the other hand, which is kind of the opposite of soups, eating foods that are harder in texture. And I hear Eric Trexler mentioned this all the time, harder, texture will slow down your eating will allow you to chew for longer, it'll lengthen the amount of time you eat. And it actually increases your sensory satisfaction, it sends a signal in your brain that you're actually eating food and you're eating a decent amount of it. You're chewing and swallowing, chewing swallowing. And this can actually manage your hunger make you feel like you've tricked yourself into feeling like you've eaten more.

Philip Pape 31:15

What's What's another thing, staying hydrated. So when you're hungry, sometimes you're thirsty, just drink a glass of water, or drink a glass of water before every meal, for example, stay really hydrated. I like to use a salad every day at lunch. If you know when I'm in a building phase, I don't do that. So often when I'm in a fat loss phase, I plan to incorporate lots of greens with my protein at lunch because they're fibers and they fill you up, shift toward lower or zero calorie drinks. Okay, this can make a big difference because drinks don't really fill you up. But if they have calories, they give you calories that don't fill you up. So going from soda to diet soda, whole milk to 2% milk or almond milk, coffee with cream to Coffee with half and half an IPA in terms of beer to like a light beer or god forbid, a an alcohol free beer. Guinness is alcohol free beer is actually not bad. Also whole versions instead of ultra processed highly palatable foods. So this would be okay, if you really have a craving for something sweet or pop tart or something like that, you know, instead of a Strawberry Pop Tart have strawberries. Now, obviously, that's a bigger leap. But these are the kinds of decisions and swaps we start to make on a diet to make sure that we manage appetite as the main driver of why we're selecting all these foods. And then ultimately, that allows us to get through the diet successfully. And in the meantime, we've transitioned our overall dietary pattern to one that supports optimal health, good nutrition, plenty of micronutrients, and so on. Okay, so that's it. That's all I'm going to say about food. Notice I didn't I didn't really tell you exactly what foods to eat, but more how to pick foods. Strategy number seven, incorporate movement into everything you do. So usually I make this very specific about steps. And it will come down to that from a tracking perspective. But the idea is, the more you move with everything, like just think of what you're doing right now you're listening to this podcast, are you watching it, you could be walking around your house, holding your phone and watching this. And if you're not doing it right now, and you're watching this on your phone sitting on your couch, Get up right now, it's our pacing around for the rest of the podcast, I probably have another 2030 minutes, or you're gonna you're gonna get like two 3000 Steps doing that. Okay. So incorporate movement and everything you do. I think steps on a wearable are the best proxy for that, right? It's not super, super precise, but it's enough to tell you how your patterns are changing. So if you always get two or 3000 steps, and you change your movement patterns, and now you're getting six or 7000 steps, while you're definitely more active, based on step count, like it's plenty accurate enough to tell you that. So do all the things that get you to move more, go listen to episode 34, which was another live that I did and recorded it it was all about walking. And it's more exciting than it sounds a lot of great stuff in there and strategies and things you can try and why walking itself is so beneficial, but really anything you could do to move that's not intense cardio, which I'm gonna get to in the next strategy. So the other thing okay, why are we doing this? Well, steps or movement is a great way to boost your metabolism it really is. Yes, you are going to burn more calories moving around. And that's not the only reason we do it. We do it for health and to avoid sitting down too long. It helps with your heart rate helps your cardiovascular health and lots of other things but it also burns more calories. Let's admit it and in a fat loss phase you may need the extra two or three or 400 calories a day to ease up on your diet or to speed up the fat loss however you want to use it. So that brings us to strategy Number eight, which is to use cardio strategically, and not excessively. So remember the point of cardio is to improve your conditioning, your cardiovascular health, not to burn calories. That's not really the point. Because the amount of calories you burn burning cardio in a half hour of highly stressful movement on your body in a fat loss phase, you could just eat a little bit less, and not have all that stress and have more recovery and better sleep. And it's not really a great trade off. But a little bit of it can go a long way. And a little bit of it also prevents you from adapting to it, such that your metabolism actually comes down and you don't want that. So I liked the advice from Mike Matthews of Legion athletics, he always says to live up, limit your cardio to half of the amount of time that you lift. So if you're lifting three to five hours a week, limit cardio to an hour and a half to two and a half hours a week tops, avoid forms of cardio that impact your recovery, or cause additional muscle stress and tearing like running, it really isn't great for you if you're a lifter. But if you really, really like hard running, and it's just like, it makes your day reduces your stress. And maybe you're pretty good at it. And maybe you're an athlete, so I'm sure incorporate it and do it in an intelligent way. Do it with Sprint workouts. You know, just don't Don't be running half marathons, you know, a couple of times a week, unless you're training to be running athlete. So good examples. Alternatives would be biking, swimming, or pushing or pulling a sled or Prowler in the gym. These are all good, concentric only movements. You can also use high intensity interval training, if you need like a calorie boost a couple times a week. And it's something fun. I mean, a lot of people don't really find it that much fun, to be honest. You know, I did CrossFit for eight years, I was doing it constantly. But I wouldn't necessarily just sign up for it.

Philip Pape 37:01

But even that is not super effective. Like you're gonna find that maybe bodybuilders deeper, new cut, have to pull out these extra things. But you don't have to do them. I mean, if you just don't want to do cardio at all, go for a lot of walks, do all the stuff I'm talking about here and you're gonna lose fat just fine. All right, number nine, strategy number nine is to get plenty of high quality sleep, you knew this one was coming like Oh, there he goes again, on sleep. Maybe I maybe I could have made this number one, like before even do anything, fix your sleep issues, so that you get recovered and improve your fat loss. But a lot of people have trouble with this some for some people, it's really a process over time of improving sleep, and I get it. So I'm just gonna throw a couple of things at you here. There's a study done last year by Avacyn at all. Hopefully I pronounced it right. That found that participants in the study that were sleep restricted, they had just over four hours of sleep. They, they and another group that got about eight hours of sleep, they both gain the same amount of fat, okay, in this case, they were just eating whatever they wanted. And they were all over eating slightly. So they all gain fat, but they gain the same amount. The Sleep restricted group, they gained more than three times of that fat in the abdominal area, then the other participants so so the body fat gain was the same, but the belly fat was up by 9% in the sleep restricted group, and it was only 2.6% in the normal full sleep group. So even if you're doing everything right, and you're the right calories and all the other stress, just not getting enough sleep can cause you to store fat in your belly, which I know is a problem for a lot of people especially you know women, especially in perimenopause and post menopause, it becomes an issue because of the effects of the reproductive hormones and estrogen for that fasters. But men as well right with the beer gut, think about it, see pas how big of an impact. The other thing is. So if you're not really tracking and saying top of all the other things, which we are right, we're going to be doing that sleep deprivation can cause people to just eat more calories, it just makes you hungry and makes you eat more. It lowers your metabolic rate. This is a hormonal thing and down regulate your hormones. It causes the appetite, it causes the metabolism to go down. Okay, just like other stressors on the body. So sleep is the biggest thing. If you have other chronic stress in your life that is hard to get rid of, because of your job or your family sleep can be that big mitigator of the negative effects from that, like the negative effects of cortisol, your stress hormone, when you're stressed all the time and it stays higher than it needs to be and it doesn't come down enough at night. And then you don't get good quality sleep well if you can kind of turn that around a bit by focusing on scheduling in enough sleep. Okay, we're talking seven to eight hours of sleep and no screens 30 minutes before bed. That's the bare bones thing you can do to improve your sleep. If you want to learn a lot more beyond that, I do did an episode quite a while back about sleep that has like, you know, 20 things, you can try all the little subtle things. But getting enough and avoiding screens before bed will go a long way toward this and getting enough sleep will really help with fat loss, help with hunger. And it'll definitely help with your recovery during a time when you don't have a lot of other resources coming in. Okay, strategy number 10. This is the last one. And then I'm going to summarize everything okay, this strategy is to use diet breaks to conquer those mental demons of dieting. So we already talked about selecting foods for hunger, that's going to help a lot. Having said that, though, it can get tiring it can get fatiguing. When you're on going on 1012 weeks or 14, like maybe you have a little more weight to lose, and you're going for a 16 week fat loss phase was the maximum I would ever recommend to be honest. But I've seen people I've had clients, I can go well beyond that, because we're managing all the biofeedback so well, that it's okay they can keep going in their body responds just fine in the metabolism isn't too low, etc. But what you want to do is monitor all those things we talked about, monitor your hunger, your energy, your recovery, tracking everything, monitor your performance in the gym, that's one of the most important things to be honest. Because as soon as you start to degrade on your lifts, and you start to feel tired in the gym, that tells me you may be starting to lose muscle. If any of these things go past the point that are comfortable for you. Take a diet break. Okay, so if your biofeedback is poor, like like your recovery, your hunger, your energy performance, and so on, or you're just getting tired of dieting, or you want to align a break in your diet in with a special event or holiday, right, we just had Thanksgiving Christmas here. And those are good times to take a diet break so that you can eat more food and enjoy without too much pressure. Or if you're traveling right. Or if you have a lot of weight to lose, and you need to break it up into phases, take a diet break, there are a lot of ways to do this, the easiest way to do it is just eat at your maintenance calories, by increasing your carbs to get you to those calories. So let's say you're you're dieting on 1600 calories, but your maintenance calories are 2200 Just get 600 more calories of carbs per day during the break. So 600 divided by four, that's going to be two, that's gonna be 150 more grams of carbs. So if you were at like, you know, 100 grams of carbs, now you can have 250 grams of carbs during the break, that's going to refuel your glycogen, that's going to give you more energy to cut is going to help bring your metabolism up all these things for a while before you get right back to dieting, and everything adapts right back. It's a good strategy to try. There are many more advanced, what are called nonlinear dieting strategies. You can look up nonlinear dieting or reach out to me for questions, I have interesting schemes that could use like interval dieting, where you you're aggressively dieting for two weeks, and then maintenance for two and then aggressive, or five to dieting, or you pick two high calorie days during the week. There's a lot of ways to do this. But I don't want to get into the weeds today. Just know that that strategy is available to you. Okay, so we just went through 10 strategies, we established three principles for fat loss. And I'm going to summarize all of this because it is a lot. And again, I recommend going through this again in the future, if needed. And I will also have a guide a fat, fat loss for life guide available. If you join the community and just reach out you can get it. Here we go. Number one, always train heavy, and train hard. Use low intensity, I mean sorry, use high intensity that's weight on the bar, low to moderate volume programming, so that you can recover. So this is going to be training as if you're building muscle. Number two, track your calories, protein and weight. So that you know your dynamic maintenance for for your metabolism before we go died. So this is actually number two and three, I just I'm sorry, this is number two and three. So number two is protein. Number three is tracking. Alright, so getting sufficient protein, and tracking.

Philip Pape 44:23

Number four, do the first three things first, and then try to find your true maintenance calories spend time getting to true maintenance. Using an app like macro factor makes it really easy to do. I generally recommend something like four weeks for this phase. Number five, use a moderately aggressive energy deficit. Okay, point two five to 1% per week. Number six select foods that mitigate hunger. So you want to prioritize appetite management. Number seven move just move Get It steps, aim for somewhere around eight to 10,000 steps, but get steps and movement, however, you can get more than you get now, and then get more than that later and keep pushing yourself to get more movement in. That's low intensity. The next one, this is number eight, use cardio, strategically limited, so like half the time you lift. And if you need to use something like hit, do it. If you want to do medium intensity cardio, go with a high recovery, low impact one like swimming, biking or Prowler pushing. Number nine, get seven, eight hours of sleep and limit screens at least 30 minutes before bed. And then number 10. Use diet breaks at maintenance calories by increasing your cat carbs whenever you need to, to remain consistent and continue dieting. All right, there you have it a lot I know. But hopefully it was organized well enough that you can absorb it all and apply it to your own life. And that's my attempt at providing everything you need to know about fat loss, or at least the things that really matter. And I would say rather than try to implement everything at once, work your way down the list and incorporate these over time. I ordered them in a way that I think is effective, useful and doable. maybe with the exception of sleep, sleep maybe could be higher on the list, but you really can customize it to what makes sense for you. And if you want that free fat loss for a life guide that goes along with this training, just join the Wits & Weights Facebook community, the link again is in the show notes. And if you want more support than this, because I know it's hard to do this on your own, it really can be hard you may have tried in the past, and you just want to do it in the most effective time efficient way possible. I do have a few spots open for one on one coaching, where we're going to work together on all the things I talked about in this episode. To get you the results the body you deserve a sustainable plan to maintain those results. For the rest of your life. The easiest way to get in touch is go to wits & weights.com/coaching, where you can fill out an application or DM me directly. And then I'll just set up a quick call with you and see if it's good fit. And then if it is, we'll get started. Again, just go to wits. & weights.com/coaching. If you have any questions about any nutrition or fitness topic, go to wits & weights.com and look for the Ask Philip section on the homepage. And lastly, I really do want to thank you and I do appreciate you for taking the time out to listen to or watch this episode. And as always, stay strong. Thanks for listening to the show. Before you go, I have a quick favorite ask if you enjoy the podcast. Let me know by leaving a five star review in Apple podcasts and telling others about the show. Thanks again for joining me Philip Pape in this episode of Wits & Weights. I'll see you next time and stay strong

Philip Pape 1/3/23 Philip Pape 1/3/23

Ep 39: Training Principles, Rep Ranges, Avoiding Pain, and Flexible Dieting with Matthew Spiewak

I am joined by a member of our Wits & Weights Facebook community, Matthew Spiewak, to chat about training and nutrition, including flexible dieting, compound lifts, pain and injury, and programming.

I am joined by a member of our Wits & Weights Facebook community, Matthew Spiewak, to chat about training and nutrition, including flexible dieting, compound lifts, pain and injury, and programming.

Matthew is an ACSM-certified Personal Trainer in the Chicagoland area with a degree in Kinesiology.

He loves helping people feel and look better and transform their health through his hands-on work in the gym as a trainer, so Matthew has both the educational and practical experience to help you succeed.

Matthew also hosts a 30-minute Instagram live every Tuesday at 5pm Central time in the U.S. and brings on new guests every week.

Topics discussed in this episode:

How and why Matthew got into fitness
Flexible dieting and who benefits from it
Whether anyone should NOT use flexible dieting
Whether people should squat and deadlift, benefits, how to incorporate in training
The best rep ranges for strength, hypertrophy, and physique
Bench press form (and getting the entire body involved)
How to avoid low back pain
How to deal with an injury
Why programming is so important to get better results
How to start and stick with a training routine
and lots more

RELATED LINKS

Find Matthew on Instagram
Matthew's website
Watch the episode on video here
Join the Wits & Weights Facebook community

🎙️ ABOUT THE SHOW
At Wits & Weights, we help you achieve optimal health that fits your lifestyle—without excessive dieting, cardio, or food restrictions. Philip Pape, podcast host and head nutrition coach, helps high-achieving people burn fat, get lean, feel energized, and project confidence in their lives through one-on-one nutrition and lifestyle coaching at witsandweights.com.

👉 Just go to witsandweights.com/coaching to connect with me.
👥 To join our Facebook community for live training, free guides, free challenges, and more, just click here.

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Transcript

Philip Pape 00:08

Matthew Spiewak 01:15

Like, theoretically, we're going to take the keto diet and just like, we're going to take out an entire food group, throw it out of there, get rid of it, throw, you know, throw everything in your house, get rid of it, we're going to be able to expand actually, what you eat. A lot of times, that's the best part is, a lot of people have this mindset of, oh, I need to get to this Wait, look this way and get down to this body fat percentage, I need to close down on the types of foods that I'm eating, and I need to kick things out. And in all reality, once you start giving them more information, and giving them the tools to understand what they can do, and add the foods that they can use to actually start to expand the options that they have. And all of a sudden, now they have all the options. They have the freedom, they have the autonomy to eat what they want. And it'll work because at the end of the day, it's sort of looking at the macro base side of things, you know, does this fit with our macros? Is it good for us? If it Chuck's off those boxes? By all means? Go for it run with it?

Philip Pape 05:59

Yeah, so I love that approach. It's flexible, because it's flexible. But you talked about diversity of food options, and really opening it up as opposed to closing it up with the restriction. Taking a quick tangent here. How did you how did you originally learn about flexible dieting? Because I know I can think of my past of books like lean Norton's fat loss forever. And you've got Alan Aragon and all the all the guys like Trexler and Eric Helms, right. The evidence based guys, how did you come across this concept?

Matthew Spiewak 06:27

Yeah, so it was more or less just the idea of being in college, I'll be honest, and it was an how I got into it was just on the total end of the spectrum of the pop tarts and pizza diet pretty much like it is anything if it fits the macros it, it works, because you know, I was a young kid in college, you know, consuming some alcohol here. So I had to work with what I had, I didn't want to spend, you know, a lot money on some things, not to say that eating healthy is expensive whatsoever. But it was just more or less, hey, I'm in a rush because I need to go to class, can I just grab like a quick protein bar or something like that? That sort of aspect. And so I started going into it. And I just continued to see all of this success with, hey, if I just hit my macros every day and hit the calories every day, I'm seeing the physical success, and I'm seeing it in the weights and all that everything is progressing. And then as I continue to learn about I say, hey, what if we started to make this a little more in terms of feeling better, because with all this processed food that I was eating it my diet was I mean, you know, as I said, Before, I was on the one end of the spectrum there, you know, so it was a lot of processed foods and all that. And so I said, Okay, how can we make that, you know, a little bit healthier here? How can we make some better choices while still using that ideology of if it's the macros if it's the calories, I'm good, and so slowly, but surely, I started to kind of change it and tinker it around. But that whole idea of the flexible diet is still a staple. Today for me,

Philip Pape 07:59

that's awesome. So you can came to it just naturally by how you love to eat, and you're like, how can I get away with this but still meet my goals? Initially, but you know, you're actually referring to like the the muscle and food pyramids or some of the priority pyramids, you see where, you know, rule number one is calories, right? Like to gain or lose weight, you have to adjust your calories. And honestly, you could do it however you want, you're gonna gain lose weight. But then the question is, like you said, how are you going to feel? Are you going to preferential prevent, prioritize fat loss doing that? Is it going to fuel your training and all the other things when we get into the nuances of protein, and then timing and fuel, food quality, etc. So it sounds like a great way to eat. And I use that with my clients as well. But should anyone not use it?

Matthew Spiewak 08:47

I haven't come across it yet, I would say there might be a couple of cases where it just doesn't work for you. And this is where the individuality of working with a client one on one really comes into play. Sometimes people do actually work better if it is super strict, because they're just saying, if I'm giving this amount of freedom, I'm gonna run with it. And I'm not gonna be able to control the calories and not be able to control the macros and all that. And so sometimes you do need to take that approach with more strict. Now I think it's easier. A lot of the times when you're working with a new client to start broad, and, you know, ease the weigh in a little bit more. But obviously, there are a couple of cases where it's, Hey, we're getting rid of this right now. The only time I would I've done that before is has been with alcohol and that's when they specifically go like I need to get this like, I don't want this in my diet. Sometimes people say I want to still be able to have drinks on the weekend and all that. But when there are the times that they say, Man, I want this out of my diet, I don't want it then we say okay, like we won't incorporate into the diet. We will not include it whatsoever. So yeah, and honestly, I think in my opinion, that approach is still consistent with flexible dieting, because what you're telling me is, the client is making the decision. They're planning

Philip Pape 10:21

Cool. So we'll probably get back into nutrition or if there's other topics related that you want to bring up, I definitely can do that. But let's get to training.

Philip Pape 10:31

I want to hear your perspective, first of all, on the big three, because when I when I talk to a client doesn't know much about training, that's usually where I want to start, in my mind is just basic introduction to strength, the compound lifts. And let's start with the squat and deadlift, because I think they're intimidating for a lot of people, especially when we talk about barbells. Should most people be doing these? You know, what are the benefits? How do we incorporate them?

Matthew Spiewak 10:54

Yeah, I think I mean, right off the bat, I think most people should at least be trying to work up to them. Because not everyone is going to be in the right position, starting off, maybe they have some sort of reoccurring injury underlying injury, they just don't know how to do the movement, you know, maybe we don't start them off with a deadlift day one, you know what, that's kind of a basic rule there. But the whole idea is that we should be more or less working towards that, because we need to look at, okay, what kind of movement is the deadlift? It's a hip hinge movement, what kind of movement is the squat, it's, you know, that's idea of we're sitting down standing back up, we need those movements in life. So we can start off with variations of those movements that either simplify it by reducing the load, maybe reducing, or decreasing the range of motion that they're performed in, for example, for example, a lot of times, when I want to work with someone to eventually say, down the road, like in three months, we're gonna get you to be deadlifting. That's, that's a pretty scary sight. For some people, all of a sudden, like deadlifting, like, Oh, I'm gonna hurt my back, I'm going to do all this, I'm not doing that. Say, Okay, we're going to be doing rack poles, where we're starting with the bar, almost at halfway up the the thought of the quad. So the, we've just shorten the range of motion by about 70%. There, we're still getting that top portion of a deadlift, where it's still a hip hinge moment, we're utilizing the lats utilizing the upper back. And we're just going to now slowly progress, we're going to work on that. And then we're going to master that right there. All right, of the of the raffle. And then we're going to lower it by an inch, and we're going to master that. And then as we go down, we're slowly going into it, building up their confidence. And that's one of the things I talk about a lot is like, I'm trying to build your confidence in this, because I know how scary it can be sometimes to say like, Man, I'm doing a delet doll Southern, I'm doing this new movement, a lot of times just because it's a new movement, and they, you know, have this little bit of fear in there that like something's gonna go wrong, something's gonna, you know, snap and get hurt. It's just building your confidence in the gym in order to actually perform the movements.

Philip Pape 13:01

Yeah, and I like that confidence approach. As I like that you didn't go straight to something like mobility or physical limitations, because I know that also, I'm gonna say it's use that as an excuse. But I believe most people can do the full range of motion of most of these movements, if they can work up to it. And it's getting them there. So like, on a squat, right? If I were to take your analogy of using the rap pole, the deadlift, it might be going to a tall box, right? Or it might be sitting into bands, if you want to get the full range of motion, but like, take some of the load off. So for the for those of you listening, like this is great advice. Because if you're doing this on your own, and you're like, No, there's no way I can do X movement, think about ways to gradually work your way up, right? And the rack pole is do you want to just explain that for people. So they know how to do that.

Matthew Spiewak 13:50

Yeah, so the rack pole you'll be working at, at the rack itself, with the safety catches that are there. So it's the it's the long flat part that actually extend out, and you want to set it up at first. So ideally, a good rack poles anywhere, kind of right above that knee, if you want to set it up there, you put your quads right in that middle part of the Olympic bar where it's smooth, because we don't obviously, we don't want to scrape up your entire leg there, you have your hands just outside of, of the thighs. And so what I tell people is the bar never leaves your quads, it is staying on your legs the entire time, alright, it should never leave. And what we want to do is want to squeeze that upper back as tight as we can to maintain that back with the lat tightness or at the upper back tightness, all that getting the traps involved a little bit. And the whole goal I tell people is we're not shrugging the bar up. If we think about the hip hinge movement. All right, all we're really doing is just starting in this hinge position. We're kind of bent over almost done. We're just standing straight up. What a lot of people do is when they are in that position, they tend to stand up with their back, you know, and they go into it like that. And so we're trying to teach we're going to stay up by moving the glutes forward and moving them in that in that like sagittal plane of motion kind of. And it's that hip hinge movement that like really opens up the box, if we can get the hip hinge movement down, like and it becomes second nature to us, that opens up everything, we can do so many more exercises, and really, really improve ourselves.

Philip Pape 15:21

Nice. And for those listening who are confused in any way, you know, you could always hire a coach like Matthew Walker. But he's talking about cues as well. Right? Which and different cues work for different people I know. Like, my daughters, they're eight and 10. If they see me working out, I use fun analogies. I'm like, Yeah, I'm using gorilla arms on my deadlift, you see grill arms that just hangs down. I don't pull, they just hang and I'm driving my legs grill, you know, or, or I'm pushing the earth away, you know, or stuff like that. Yeah. Yeah, it's fun. So what about the benchpress? The other big three, the benchpress, maybe is a little more complicated than people make it out to be. But if you know if people can use their full body and the right grip and the leg drive and all that, I'm sure they could, you know, realize the benefits of it. So what are your thoughts on that move?

Matthew Spiewak 16:12

Yeah, I love the benchpress. But I do agree with your words, a lot of times people will kind of take it a little bit too simple. I will say it's off from just the physical superficial perspective, yes, it's the easiest one out of none of the three, it's the less technical, we're not utilizing our entire body that's actually moving. But that's not to say that we're not utilizing the entire body. So a lot of people go into it and think, oh, all you do is you just move the bar down your chest, and you press back out, okay, it's one muscles you're working if there's someone knowledgeable themselves, that chest, triceps shoulders, so yes, that is correct. But we also need to think about the setup and how to get as much power as we can as much force as we can not only to improve the amount of weight that we can actually lift, but to also keep us tight as we can, because a lot of times people have a shoulder problem, or they actually will injure their lower back on the benchpress, which is really interesting. It's like you're injuring your lower back on the bench press, how are you doing that. And it's when we're creating that arch in the lower back. But we're not utilizing the hips and the legs. And so whenever we are moving that lower back, I'm in more of the realm where we can move that lower back as much as we want, as long as we are directing the pressure that the exercise is placing upon us into the right muscle groups. So in that movement, and what I'm saying by that is, we're going to have that arch in the lower back. So we're going to move it a little bit. But we don't want the pressure go into the lower back. We want the pressure going to the hips, because if we can bear the lower back to the hips, the hips is so much stronger by 95%. I mean, they can bear so much more load produce so much more power. So we the goal there is to pinpoint all the pressure into the hips, so the hips then can drive the movement forward.

Philip Pape 18:03

Yeah, awesome. I love that. So you're moving the back, and you're supporting the load going through the back to the hips and really relying on the hips. And the back is just a stabilizer, right? So to speak. What about the shoulders? What about the shoulder blades on the back of the bench? Because a lot of people tend to just relax and not think about that. What do they need to do there?

Matthew Spiewak 18:23

Yeah, I mean, it's this is the simple cue where you're just pinching the shoulder blades back. And this is where either if there's two main cues that I would use for this, and it works for different people. So either pinch the shoulder blades back, which you're literally just retracting the scapula as close as we can. Alright, and the second one is I just get a high chest, get a big chest in there. Because what we ideally want is we want the chest to be above the shoulders, when we do a movement. If you're to look at yourself in the side, you want the chest here and the shoulders down here because then the chest is the main mover compared to the shoulders. And so some people don't have that mind muscle connection to per se, of actually being able to retract the scapula. But if I say hey, just make up the chest, pump that chest out as big as you can. Naturally you're gonna pull your shoulders back and move it out. It's the same thing. It's just that we're relaying the information differently. We're really in the instructions differently to you.

Philip Pape 19:22

Yep, again, we're a coach is very beneficial. Do you do you do online form checks for folks? Are you just in person?

Matthew Spiewak 19:30

I do them if they send me a video at this point. I'm only training in a gym right now. So only personal training and coaching in the gym. But by all means I always love I do have people like will send me their videos to see like, is this form good? Can I improve this? If they do have that scenario where my back is hurting in the squat? You know we we go through it a little bit because I'm always trying to help because I know that pain of being lost and confused. And then if you are in that position where you're getting hurt, or you're getting injured in these movements that you want to perform to the best of your ability, it sucks. And I've been there for so long. And I know that pain and I'm like, I don't want you to be that I want to help you as much as I can.

Philip Pape 20:17

Cool. Yeah. And I, you know, I could tell you talk like a coach who knows what he's talking about. And there, there's a lot of coaches that don't. And so people struggle if they're trying to find someone to help, or if they're working from their home gym of, you know, who to go to. So just trying to throw some clients away when people are listening. And we're gonna send you some form checks. What about, what about the fourth big lift? The one that I really love the overhead press? Do you program that in? Do you consider it a big lift? Like, what are your thoughts on that?

Matthew Spiewak 20:42

Oh, yeah, overhead press is? Yeah, we talked about the big three, just because those are going to hit all the muscles. But in all reality, we do need to include overhead press. And I would also include a row in that. Yeah. But yeah, 100%. I mean, I always like to say this, if I could go back to my past self, when I first started working, I would only program those, what those five movements pretty much. And I would tell myself just get really good at those movements, build the skill, build a base, build a foundation, just to get really good at moving your body through that pattern. And then later on, we can start to add in some new new movements in there have some fun, but I mean, honestly, you can grow so much muscle and improve so much, if you were to just focus on those.

Philip Pape 21:29

Yeah. And you mentioned a row as well. Do you throw a pole in there into like the fundamentals like pull ups and shins? Or do you just rely on the deadlift at that point?

Matthew Spiewak 21:38

Yeah, if they can do a pull up and chin ups? Yeah, it's 100%. I'm going to do it. I mean, if not, we just set it up an inverted chin up or inverted row, where we just set up the bar on this AP catches, once again, you just doing, you're grabbing onto the bar there, and you're pulling yourself up. So it's strong from the ground. But 100% Those are the main movements. And for everyone, obviously, I'm when I program for clients, it's going to be different for everyone. Everyone has one goal, they're starting off at a different starting point. They have different limitations, different strengths, different weaknesses. But ideally, I try to find how can we fit these main movements into every single person, whether it be a different variation, whether it be different intensity, different frequency, all that stuff? Ideally, the same. Main foundational movements aren't every single person's workout.

Philip Pape 22:31

Yeah, that makes sense. I mean, some people No, no call these functional movements. But unfortunately, the the CrossFit world also kind of took that over. And, and I know, what you're referring to, you mentioned earlier is you got your hip hinge your squat, your vertical and horizontal presses, and polls, just just how we move in real life, right? What What about intensity? So if you're starting someone new, who's never trained before they want to get stronger, you know, I will say an average person, they may, you know, they may not be in the greatest of health, but they're not they don't have any significant limitations. Taking the squat, for example, are you working in a fairly low rep range? Or do you start higher? What's the programming look like?

Matthew Spiewak 23:09

Yeah, so it's interesting here, I wouldn't even look at what rep range I'm starting with, because that can vary. And I'll explain why. But I would really automatically start at a low intensity just because they're coming off. What whether it be that they have some experience in the past, whether whether it be they've been doing stuff on their own, and they can probably handle it. When they work with me, I'm throwing a new stimulus at them, and their body automatically is going to be like, Well, what is happening, we need to adjust, we need time to adjust this. So I always tell people, the goal of the first week of the workouts is for me not not to make you sore, I'm really planning not make you sore. That being said, you might be sore a little bit, but I'm not trying to drive you into the ground, you are only going to be sore just because it's this is a new fluid pattern for you and all that. Now going back to why I said the volume per se, yeah, let's say we're already going to be a low intensity, we know that. But if we're at a low intensity, we can play around with the volume. So let's, let's say we're going back to what you said, I'm working with the squats. So we can either work at a low intensity and a higher volume, per se, with a four by eight, just all of a sudden we're getting, you know, 32 reps in there, my math is correct there. Or what we could do is actually go you know, six sets of three, because sometimes if you throw them in to do eight reps at a time, that's just a lot at once, and it's too much to focus on and they get fatigued even on a very mentally fatigued. So you just say three reps at a time. You can actually help them out and do like focus on one cue here for these three reps. I don't care about anything else. Focus on no keeping the elbows tucked in for three reps. They do that everything's fine. And then you focus on I focus on keeping the heels down just for these three reps. And then they do that and they focus and slowly you're building up all these cues because honestly I tell them like I'm throwing a lot of stuff at you right now. Sure. And it's hard. Yes, it is skill. Exactly. But as long as we're starting with that low intensity, we can vary depending on how much volume we want to put into it.

Philip Pape 25:13

Sure, yeah. And then I imagine peep different people will take to it more quickly than others if someone is more athletically inclined versus not. And yeah, like you said, your skill and technique and form sets you up for eventually making a ton of progress, doing it fairly quickly, later on, and not injuring yourself, Oh, my God, versus trying to go all out initially, and then just just having bad habits. You know, I just heard about a study that came out, I think it was, I think it was stronger by science, put it on the website might have been today, showing that in the back squat. The more the higher the intensity, the more recruitment of the hips, right? So at higher reps and lower intensity, it's more quad dominant, which will kind of kind of know that I mean, trainers know that someone intuitively you know that, but it's interesting to see in the research, how that recruitment ramps up and take the load goes more and more to the hips, based on your relative intensity. Just just mentioning that. And you know, if you had heard that, it's pretty cool stuff. Now, that's cool. Yeah. It's always interesting to hear that. Yeah. Cuz then we talk about, okay, how do people get really strong in the squat is like a whole body movement, right? And eventually, you do have to lift pretty heavy. So how do you work with somebody who's like, I want to get stronger, and I want to improve my body composition, and you're past that initial training phase of skill development, they've got the list down, you trust that they know what they're doing? What is your programming look like at that point?

Matthew Spiewak 26:37

Yeah, that point, that's when we can say, you know, I like to tell people, we're trying to check off these boxes here. I just had like a client the other day, like, we finally got to that point where the I didn't even need to, like remind her of the deadlift cues and anything like that, we just added the weight. And she finally got it. All five reps were like, perfect. And I said, That box is checked off now. Now we can start to work with the deadlift, and manipulate the intensity and actually go into okay, what is that main goal that we're trying to get to how can we actually utilize the intensity to actually achieve that goal. But I mean, first and foremost, obviously, we do have to check off that box and just make sure that we have that movement down, then what we go into is more or less, increasing the intensity a little bit, so we're still going to be working on that main movement of of the squat. So we have the skill, the squat down, we can perform a squat without, you know, failing without having really bad heels coming up, knees caving, and all that all that bad stuff there. So now we can say, Okay, now we're gonna start increasing the weight, and they're gonna feel what the intensity is. Because before that, we were keeping the weight kind of low, though, that load was pretty light, just because we wanted to be good at the moment, we didn't want to get fatigued too much, because we still wanted to be strong enough to do the movement and get the practice reps. And now we're saying, we got the practice reps, and we're going for the actual game now like this is this is where it matters. And the intensity goes up, obviously, it's not like we're going to max out, I tell my clients, I'm like, I'm never gonna have you max out not going for like less than a two rep max or max here. But we're still trying to go anywhere between anywhere between the 7075 80%. For anywhere between, I would say four to six reps is a good mark for just building the overall strength, which is where I usually tend to throw the mat if you're going anywhere above, it's, it's taxing on your CNS, if you're gonna go above 10 reps for a squad, and there's only so much weight that you can put on and sure, yeah, that's the tough part. So

Philip Pape 28:40

that's like a mark of if you can, if you can do what is it three sets of 20 or something on the squat is a test of yourself, you know, I can't imagine doing that. And, and I and you're supposed to do it in like a 10 RM to get the 20 at a 10 RM you know what I'm saying? Okay, so, I like what you're saying, and that's good for people to hear, right? Because a lot of people have, I think conventional wisdom is more the hypertrophy or bodybuilding range, eight to 12, you know, especially a lot of my female clients come in doing everything is set to 10 with like, the pink dumbbells and and kind of the same thing week after week. And I say that a little bit facetiously, but they know it. And you know, when we talk about strength, and what you're talking about here is, Hey, you want to build muscle, and you want to get stronger and it's not just about aesthetics, right it's about health but guess what, it all ties together. So if so, you somebody somebody comes in you say yeah, that's what we're gonna do. We're gonna go really intense here. And they say, Yeah, but I want to, I want to get ripped. You know, I want to get big muscles, big biceps or a female client, you know, bigger glutes. What's your response? Is this going to help them?

Matthew Spiewak 29:48

Oh, 100% it's still going to help them. Are you talking about specifically if how I'm going to do a squat to help with bigger biceps or just

Philip Pape 29:56

no no, no, not as compromised. So just you know, the the a notion that you have to do bodybuilding style movements almost exclusively to build your physique. Hey, this is Philip Pape. And if you feel like you've put in effort to improve your health and fitness, but aren't getting results, I invite you to apply for a one on one coaching to make real progress and get the body you desire. We'll work together to figure out what's missing. So you can look better perform better and feel better. Just go to wits & weights.com/coaching, to learn about my program and apply today. Now back to the episode.

Matthew Spiewak 30:33

Oh, totally. Yeah, I mean, I built a lot of my physique on, on doing the lower reps, rarely do I go past 10 or 12 reps and a lot of things. Now granted, if I'm going to do that, I need to be going at a higher intensity because the volume is down, we know that there's an inverse relationship between volume and intensity. So that is there. If we wanted to go more hypertrophy we can this is this is the beautiful thing about weightlifting and trying to build muscle and trying to build strength is that there's 1000 ways to skin a cat. So I can work I can go somebody strictly with just doing six to eight reps on pretty much every movement and they are still going to build muscle. And then the same time I'd be with somebody else and not even touch six reps stay around like the 10 to 12 if they really wanted to. And we would still see a lot of muscle and a lot of improvement. Now it's expensive when we can like combine both worlds and like go up and down and change things around. And that's where the programming comes into play. But I always tell people like do like there's so many ways we could do it. If you really don't want to go that low and wait, I'm not going to force you, I'm going to try my best to explain why I want to do it. But if you are saying there's no way I'm doing five reps on a squat, I say alright, I'm not gonna do it.

Philip Pape 31:45

It's just so true. There's so many ways to get there. And I think the like the bro science has evolved to kind of catch up to where anywhere between you know, three and three and 18 reps or something is getting is going to work pretty effectively. And the only reason more than more reps. And that doesn't work is because most people can't actually mentally deal with the amount of work required to do more than that. Right? Yeah, exactly right at the right level of failure. Cool. So let's talk low back pain, because you alluded to that a little bit earlier. Somebody you know, you tell them you're gonna deadlift, and they're like, No, that's gonna be bad for my back. And I personally had back surgery last year, I had a micro diskectomy on my L five, s one, and F and since then I've done I can't tell you how many squats and deadlifts and it feels great. And I think it's the best thing to do. But form is really important, as we've talked about, how do people avoid pain? Or maybe if they come to you with pain, maybe get rid of pain?

Matthew Spiewak 32:42

Yeah, the first thing we do is we actually move that back. That is that is what we want to do. A lot of times I tell people when they come in, and the I'm a big Stickler, the very first moment I do for every single client, no matter what is going to be a cat cow, or a cat camel is what some people say, I think cat cow, it makes a little bit more sense. But that's where you're just in that tabletop position. And you're flexing and extending that that entire spine pretty much. And I want to tell people is like, Yeah, our lower back. If we get so afraid, we have this natural fear of moving the lower back and hurting the lower back, which obviously is there because you know, either you've experienced an injury before or you've seen somebody else with that injury with in your case, you've had that surgery, oh, I don't want to move my lower back, I don't want to have the surgery that Phillip had. But in reality, if we don't, you know, move that lower back and move that spine in general, we're teaching it to pretty much just be stiff that entire time. And so then all of a sudden, when we are in a position because you know whether it be in life, we're bending down to pick something up, or we are in the weight room, you know, we're moving around putting a plate back, all of a sudden, we find ourselves in a vulnerable position where the back is in flat, that lower lumbar isn't a flexed position. And also we haven't prepared for that. And then it snaps. So then then it like pulls and back spasms and all that and then and then we get hurt. So the first thing is just moving and putting that lower back in those flex and extended positions.

Philip Pape 34:10

That's awesome. Yeah. So you are preparing for, and this is great for people to hear when you lift a lot more onto the back of a truck. And you're flexing your back and then you're lifting and then you're twisting. Have you prepared for those movements? Because if not, that's where you get injured is what you're saying. And don't be afraid of the very controlled environment of a deadlift, which Matthew is going to help you actually work up that that load on against those muscles to be able to handle that movement in real life. And even you know what else I think of strongman the strongman competition, they just had the rogue Invitational right with those events. And you see them doing the Atlas stones. And you're like wow, there they are rounding their back significant breezy it that's like you have to so you have to prepare for that right. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Yeah. So then, what if you do get into heard, like a strain tendinitis something else. And there's so many there's so much complexity when it comes to injury. Because there's nerve pain, there's things and PTs and doctors half the time don't know what they're talking about no offense halftime they do what? Somebody comes to you and says, you know, I just have shoulder pain all the time. And I've had it for years, like, what do we do? Yeah,

Matthew Spiewak 35:21

well, my job I always like to go back into my kinesiology degree, you know, the study of movement. Alright, how can we move your body to possibly make it feel better, I really try to stay in, stay in my lane of, I'm not trying to diagnose you, I'm not a doctor, I'm not a physical, we're not going to spend an hour training session working on your shoulder, because you know, that's not the point. But what we can do is look at how you move, right? Does the shoulder hurt when you come in? When you're externally rotating your arm all the way back? Is it hurting? When we're bringing it behind our back, you know, we can look at those movements. And I can say, honestly, it's a quick YouTube video from the past that I've done, and just say, oh, usually, when you're in this pain, when you can't rotate your arm this way, there's here are five moments that you can include. And just by doing that, we can sometimes you know, maybe it's it's almost never a, oh, it's fixed in one inch. Wow, this is great. It's saying, Hey, this is the problem that we have. It's not an underlying issue, because it's obviously an issue in front of us. But this is what we're gonna be working on. Every time we come in, we're gonna dedicate 510 minutes of our time, just by working on this, because this is what's really holding us back. We can't make a lot of progression until we can take care of this slowly, but surely, we're gonna get it done. Don't just like going through the movements of our body, what can we actually do, and this is where like, all the biomechanics and actually understanding muscles and all that stuff comes into play. But it's just taking that approach of moving your body the way that it's supposed to

Philip Pape 36:55

love it and moving and not just resting right, because people probably try that for years. And now they've got the scar tissue. It's so funny, because few years back, I had golfer's elbow, right bicep tendonitis. And I know for a fact, it was from a terrible squat group I had, which is not something people would necessarily jump to right in their head is the squat group, which I fixed the squat rack,

Matthew Spiewak 37:16

we're talking about, hey,

Philip Pape 37:17

you know what I'm talking about, right? So you know, now I use a thumb over and a half, and you do it a certain way that works for me, where there's no strain on the elbow, but the pain was still there for a while. So then I had to rehab it. And the best way to rehab it was chin ups. And you're like, oh, that way. So you know, and they were painful, right? But I kept it light. And I did high reps and rehab it. So you're talking about movements, like re instilling the basement basic movement patterns that are natural to kind of push through that.

Matthew Spiewak 37:44

Yeah, the easiest for that I'd like to say is, let's say they are having shoulder problems when I'm benching and we try to make the adjustments on the barbell bench, and they're still feeling it, you know, half the time, or more than half the time, if we could just step away from the barbell and go to a dumbbell bench. It the pain goes away immediately. So then all of a sudden, we found a way. I mean, we found a way to actually still get that, that thrusting motion of the chest without any pain. Yeah, great. Look at that.

Philip Pape 38:13

There you go. That's great advice to people listening, just an alternate or very have a move, try it out. Awesome. Okay, so we've talked about, we talked a lot about the show on the show about the difference between exercise and training, right, like, exercising, going to the gym, not really having a plan and just, you know, having fun getting a sweat and whatever. Whereas training is something that's planned out right are a difference between a workout and a program. So for you as a personal trainer, programming is a huge part of what you do. I mean, it's basically what we're your expertise comes from, and why somebody would need a coach. So help us understand why it's important to getting results.

Matthew Spiewak 38:51

Yeah, well, we need to get results because we want to be efficient with our time. I always I always go back to that. It's like, don't you value your own time? Don't you respect your own time? Okay, so you're already paying money to go to a gym, and let's say you're at a home gym, right? Even if you're not paying money to go to your home gym, you're still paying time you're putting some sort of an investment in, don't you want to get the most out of your return on your investment? Right? So how do we do that we need to be able to have a plan for efficiency in there. And so that plan of efficiency comes through actually programming and saying, Okay, you're going into this day to do this moment, this many sets this many reps, and then you're gonna have this moment and do this and this and this, okay? And that is how and then you say, take a step back. Okay, how is this going to help me reach my goals, you say, Oh, well, in a month, you're going to actually be so good at it that you can probably go up to this sort of intensity. And then after that, you're gonna get so good at that, that we're going to actually change the exercise and make it a little bit harder on you. And then you're gonna have so good there. Then we get to this point, and you're saying it all comes back at the end and all circles back to your goal. And that is the main difference is that everything that we do in the gym In one way or another is going to lead to the goal if you find yourself that you're doing an exercise, and you have to ask yourself, How is this helping me? And you can't answer that, like, how is it helping me reach my goal? The reason why I started working out and trying to get better, and you can't answer that, then why are you doing that exercise? Why is why is it in there?

Philip Pape 40:22

Awesome. So you are wasting your time, and you're not being efficient unless you have a plan and a program. And that's basically time and money down the drain for weeks, months, years of your life, probably why if you're listening, and you haven't made progress in the gym, definitely programming can be a huge part of that. So are there is there a specific type of programming you really like to use in terms of, and we can get a little a little more complicated here, if you want to talk about mesocycles block programming, progression, like, I don't know, just digging a little bit of that.

Matthew Spiewak 40:51

Yeah, a lot of the block programming is pretty good, we can also always just kind of put somebody into this, you know, let's say we're taking a Gen pop, right, now, let's majority of our clients, we're gonna put them through a restorative phase. First and foremost, I don't care how advanced they think they are even, you know, or how little advanced they are, we're gonna put them through a restorative, that we're sort of phase my bed. And that's and what is that, that's pretty much just teaching them the movements. And not only teaching the movements, we're reteaching different movement patterns. Because what I love telling people is, you've spent so much time developing this movement, that is a has become your normal, it is your normal, and whether it be a muscle imbalance or something like that, it is normal to you, we need to untrain that and put in a different movement and create a different normal. So it's always setting these blocks of this phase is here, when we get done there. And we are confident in our ability that we've checked all the boxes, once again, then we can go into a different phase. And with a different sort of goal, a sub goal, I guess, within the overall goal, but the phases, I always tell people, it's very fluid, I've never seen, we're gonna work two weeks here, and then two weeks here, and then two weeks here, because for one person, they might check off all the boxes in two weeks. Sorry, but for another person, it might take six weeks. So always have to be adjusting. And that's where you're taking it week by week with the programming, you know, you have to look at and say like, we did really good on the deadlift this week, I think we can progress there a little bit. But that squat is still really struggling a little bit. So we're gonna stick with that and try to focus on it a little bit more. So, yes, that's the beauty of just the programming in general.

Philip Pape 42:42

Cool. Yeah. And you're working with the individual. And it kind of reminds me of, again, nutrition coaching, same thing where you work on one thing at a time, and if it doesn't, if you're not quite there, you got to keep keep working on it. So I think a lot of this, I mean, I'm sure you agree. Rule number one is consistency, right? Can somebody show up and do it? And the reasons are, are many, right, like for people, for some people, it's how fun it is. And others, it's the results and others. It's how much their coach yells at them, because that's what they want, you know, or whatever. But without that, it doesn't matter. A perfect program is irrelevant if you don't stick with it, right. Show up. Yeah. So how do you get people because you deal with all kinds of people? How do you get them to start and stick with the routine? Yeah, so

Matthew Spiewak 43:28

starting with the routine, it's starting them easy. Starting them off easy, alright, and letting them have autonomy in it. I always like asking two questions. It's how many days can you come into the gym on your worst week? You know, work is work is hell, your family is going crazy. You know, some something happens. How many days? Do you know that you come in here. And usually that's that's the common denominator. There's like three days is like usually like, I know, I can be here three days a week, even on a worst week. And like, Okay, sweet. We're over three days. And then I always like to tell them, what movements do really love doing, you know, is their machines, free weights, kettlebells, cables, bands and stuff like that. Because the whole goal is if we're trying to get them into this new stimulus, this new habit, this, this this new practice in their life, if we were to throw all of this new things, all the new things out them at once, it might be too much of a new stimulus, it might overload them a little bit, and then they kind of shy away, you know, they burn out pretty much. So allowing them to have autonomy in okay, I really like machines. All right, I can focus on right in the beginning. Maybe we do some bodyweight stuff just on the ground, get them moving. And then we go into the machines but deep down I know in my head I'm like, in a month I'm getting away from machines is once they start getting used to exercise and intensity and different levels. It's like okay, look at how we can progress and get away from machines. But I say I'm like yeah, totally. Let's do machines first. Like we can do an hour machines. Then it's going to be great, because I know you can still get a workout with machines. Now, do I want them there the entire time? No, I'm going to progress them to free weights and all that stuff. But yeah, it's starting it off with the stuff that they want to do.

Philip Pape 45:12

Yeah, like that. And yeah, you can't come, you can't just say, here's the ideal thing you need to do, especially if they're not gonna enjoy it, or they're gonna be stubborn, bad or whatever, however you want to phrase it. And you start with what they like, and gradually convinced them just through their own through osmosis, that there's a better way. Cool, is there anything about nutrition? You wanted to come back to with all this? Because I know you you do you do both? Right. Like, do you? Do you have clients where you'd give both nutrition and training coaching?

Matthew Spiewak 45:41

Yeah, yeah. And that's, and that's something that I do is, I try my best to actually provide that because I understand that like, hey, they can come in here, I can give them the program four days a week, I work with them once a week, maybe twice a week or something. And that's all going good. But if they're going home, and they're eating, like, crap, and or they're overeating, or they're under eating, a lot of times, it's they're under eating, a lot of times they come in and they want to build muscle, I'm like, Dude, you got to start eating a little bit

Philip Pape 46:08

more fasted, right? Exactly.

Matthew Spiewak 46:11

And then it ends up just they don't see the progress, and is the is the most interesting thing ever. Because this is what will happen, they will see the progress with the weights, the weights will steadily increase week after week after week, they won't see a physical difference in the mirror. And they're asking me what's going on here, I've been going up in the benchpress. For the last five weeks, I'm like, Yeah, we're simply just getting better at the skill of the movement. Like, that's all it is, we're just becoming more efficient and movement, we're using more muscle fibers, we're having better higher recruitment pattern. But we're not actually increasing the size of the muscle fibers themselves. And that's coming from the fact that you are not in taking as many calories. So it's given them guidelines on that, because I understand, it's like, it's a two pronged effect, you can't just have one aspect of it and expect to get the results.

Philip Pape 46:59

Yeah, you know, what you just said is, is really critical, because you're making me think of it in a different way than it had before. So when I talk to people about when they start training, and they're getting stronger, you know, there's neuromuscular adaptation, you referred to that, where you're getting better at the skill, and you're recruiting more muscle fibers that you already have, it's like this inherent potential that you haven't tapped into, and you're starting to tap into it. And and, and the way I've always said it is eventually you get to a threshold where your body needs to create new tissue to keep getting stronger. But what you also said is, if you're not in that anabolic environment to begin with, and feeding yourself, you're leaving gains on the table right from the beginning as well. Which is great for people to know. Yeah,

Matthew Spiewak 47:41

yeah, exactly. Exactly. Call I've just,

Philip Pape 47:43

I've just repaired for you. I'm just paraphrasing.

Matthew Spiewak 47:46

I mean, that's what it is. And it's, it's, it's been able to actually have them understand. And that's, that's what I love to tell my clients and like, I know that I can tell you to eat. But are you going to how much motivation is that? Is there enough of a reason to do that, just because I, your trainer is telling you to eat. If I were to explain why it's important, say, hey, remember that goal that you have that you want to have a bigger chest and a bigger back? Alright, well, we need in order to do that, we need to have muscle muscular hypertrophy, we need to increase the size of the muscles, we need to build muscle per se. In order to do that we need to eat more and weight and lift weights. So then they have that reason of why they need to eat more. And so if they can understand why they need to do something, they're going to be more inclined to actually doing that habit and doing that daily task. Rather than like, I'm doing it because my trainer said it's good for me. So I guess I got it. It's like, but now they're like, Oh, I know, putting this meal into my body right here is going to help me with my goal. So they're going to do it a lot more.

Philip Pape 48:47

I love it, man. Yeah, I'm totally fine with you on helping people understand why I'm gonna use what you just said, with clients as well that, hey, you're gonna gain strength, but you're not going to look as good as you want, unless you also keep it.

Matthew Spiewak 49:00

It's crazy. But yeah, that's what it is. No, it's true. And then

Philip Pape 49:03

and then you do see the interesting phenomenon where somebody who's very overweight, and they they go into a slight deficit and they start starting training, you see them gain weight and lose, you know, you see them gaining strength for quite a while. What in that scenario? What do you think? are we experiencing body recomp? Or is it still the neuromuscular adaptation for a while?

Matthew Spiewak 49:24

Yeah, it can be a little bit of both there. Yeah, yeah. It's

Philip Pape 49:30

to feed the muscles

Matthew Spiewak 49:31

right? Yeah, they have a bigger runway is what I like to say. And that's that's this is a metaphor that I learned from Dr. Jordan shallow if you guys he uses a lot of bigger fancy words than I do. So if you have trouble understanding me then I don't know if you're gonna understand him, but he always explains it as you have this sort of a runway of how long can we actually do this movement for this, this pattern for until we actually hit that roadblock we need to take off. So starting off from your base there, if you have more body weight, you actually have a much longer runway. Compared to somebody who started off at 110 pounds and has skin and bones, they have a much shorter runway where we can only develop that neuromuscular adaptation for that long, until we need to really start increasing the caloric and looking at that aspect, but with someone who's more on the heavier side that was looking to go down in weight, and bodyweight, their runway is a lot longer.

Philip Pape 50:30

Awesome. Yeah, that's a great way to put it the runway. Again, man. So this is gold. So much good stuff this interview. So I like to ask all my guests. Is there a question that you wish I had asked? And what's your answer?

Matthew Spiewak 50:43

Yeah, the question that I wanted you to ask would be like how to understand that less is more, because this is something that I love to fight with people about, because that means that we've gotten to a point where you are working out so much, and you love to work out, you love what you're doing that you're actually coming in here too much. And you're actually negating some of some of your strength and fuzzy gains that you could get, because then I need to fight you and bring you back down. I would much rather have that battle with someone to take him down today. Rather than like, Dude, you're only coming in here one day a week, we need to get you up to two, that step is huge for them. I would much rather have the Battle of like, you're already there. Let's just take it down a notch. Right. But understanding that less is more, and I've heard that quote, throughout my entire life. And throughout my entire life. I was like, nah, nah, I'll just work hard. I'll just keep working hard. And it wasn't until I actually took time. And I decided, You know what, I'm gonna implement it for like one month, trial for one month, cut down my the number of days I go to the gym, everything else stayed the same. I just cut down the number of days I went to the gym. And I felt better. I got way stronger and everything. And I was noticing a lot of physique changes in the good sense. So it was crazy. It was like, it took me you know, six or seven years to figure it out. But once I did, once I did it was it was it made a lot more sense.

Philip Pape 52:11

Less is more that's that's awesome advice. So if we're where's the sweet spot for most people? Right? Is it is it that they're, they're trying to lift four days a week and then fill in the other days with like, boot camps and cardio, you know, air squats and stuff are running, you know? And what is the sweet spot? Like two or three days a week? Generally?

Matthew Spiewak 52:32

Yeah, it's there's, I would say two to four days a week for the weightlifting per se you can easily do that. If you look that week or seven days, you can afford to go back to back days on one day, as long as you take that rest day on the third day. But yeah, it's a lot of it is like they come in, let's say they are doing the four days though. But then the other three are like heavy cardio days. It's like another heavy bootcamp days. And then we take a look back and like do every day you're taxing yourself. So so much. Where's the recovery aspect to it? There's no recovery in that,

Philip Pape 53:02

like, but I wanted to fat but I want to burn fat Matthew? Isn't that how I do it?

Matthew Spiewak 53:07

Yeah, it's oh my gosh. And that's and that's just where it's going back to the idea where if we can allow them to understand it, and teach them so that they can understand it, then they understand why and then they're not going to do it, compared to oh, I don't want you to do cardio for these two days. And then they say oh, like my trainer said I don't I don't have to do cardio. But I really want to because I bet it's going to help me, you know, because now they're just going off of whatever I say. I want them to understand why they shouldn't do it. Because then they're gonna realize, you know, they can practice.

Philip Pape 53:36

Yeah, they buy into. Yeah, and another question I like to ask is, are you doing this? Because you enjoy it? Are you doing this? Because usually the answer is not really. Like very few people enjoy all the success of cardio very few people, somebody might like running and then it's then it's a question of okay, do we still need to incorporate running because you enjoy it for consistency, but know that it might interfere with some of your gains over here? Yeah, great. Less is more. And then finally, where can listeners find out about you and your work?

Matthew Spiewak 54:07

Yeah, so I'm all over Instagram least I try to be the Spiewak underscore personal training. I do have a Facebook group similar to Phillips, but try to do my own spin on that, you know, I don't not just try to do a carbon copy of him. But pretty much those two places are the most I do have YouTube also on there. So that's some original content as well, unleased physique on YouTube.

Philip Pape 54:32

Cool. All right. So a lot, a lot of places. I don't think I'm in your group yet. I need to join that. So we're going to include all those links to Instagram, YouTube, Facebook, and your website in the show notes. Matthew. Again, this was a lot of fun. Thank you so much for coming on the show. It was a blast.

Matthew Spiewak 54:46

Yeah. Thank you so much for having me. It was it was awesome to talk about. Yeah.

Philip Pape 54:51

Thanks for listening to the show. Before you go, I have a quick favor to ask. If you enjoy the podcast, let me know by leaving a five star review in Apple podcasts. I'm telling others about the show. Thanks again for joining me Philip Pape in this episode of Wits & Weights. I'll see you next time and stay strong.

Philip Pape 12/27/22 Philip Pape 12/27/22

Ep 38: Body Fat Overshooting, Weight Loss vs. Fat Loss, and Avoiding Weight Loss Mistakes

Paul Hanton interviewed me about body composition, body fat overshooting, the difference between weight loss and fat loss, what happens when we lose weight, mistakes people make during weight loss, and what we can do instead for a more sustainable approach while still getting results.

This episode from my appearance on Paul Hanton’s podcast, The Healthy Fit Life, for the episode “Avoiding Common Issues with Sustainable Fat Loss.”

Paul interviewed me about body composition, body fat overshooting, the difference between weight loss and fat loss, what happens when we lose weight, mistakes people make during weight loss, and what we can do instead for a more sustainable approach while still getting results.

If you feel like you’ve put in effort to improve your health and fitness but aren’t getting results, I’d like to invite you to apply for my one-on-one coaching program to get the body you desire, lose fat, build muscle, and make real progress.

We’ll work together to examine everything you’re doing and NOT doing to figure out what’s missing so you can look better, perform better, and feel better. Just go to witsandweights.com/coaching to learn about my program and apply today.

Thanks for listening and enjoy our conversation about body composition!

Topics discussed in this episode:

What is body composition?
What is body fat overshooting?
The difference between weight loss and fat loss
What happens to your body when losing weight
Mistakes people make when trying to lose weight
Strategies for a more sustainable approach to weight loss

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🎙️ ABOUT THE SHOW
At Wits & Weights, we help you achieve optimal health that fits your lifestyle—without excessive dieting, cardio, or food restrictions. Philip Pape, podcast host and head nutrition coach, helps high-achieving people burn fat, get lean, feel energized, and project confidence in their lives through one-on-one nutrition and lifestyle coaching at witsandweights.com.

👉 Just go to witsandweights.com/coaching to connect with me.
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Transcript

Philip Pape 00:08

Philip Pape 00:31

Welcome to another episode of Wits & Weights. This episode is from my appearance on Paul Hinton's podcast, the healthy fit life for the episode avoiding common issues with sustainable fat loss. Paul interviewed me about body composition, body fat overshooting the difference between weight loss and fat loss. What happens when we lose weight mistakes people make during weight loss and what we can do instead for a more sustainable approach while still getting results. The last thing I want to mention is that if you feel like you've put in effort to improve your health and fitness, but are not getting results, I'd like to invite you to apply for my one on one coaching program. To get the body you desire, lose fat, build muscle and make real progress. We'll work together to examine everything you're doing and not doing to figure out what's missing. So you can look better perform better and feel better. Just go to wits & weights.com/coaching. To learn about my program, and apply today, or click the link in the show notes. Thanks for listening and enjoy our conversation about body composition.

Paul Hanton 01:39

Hey, and welcome to The Healthy Fit Life podcast. I'm your host Paul Hanton. Today we'll be talking to Philip Pape, a certified nutrition coach, mindset specialists and hosts of the weights and wits podcast, we'll be discussing how to avoid body fat overshooting for sustainable fat loss. And if you're a fan of the show, please do remember to subscribe so you don't miss any episodes. And we leave a review if you enjoy listening. So Philip, how you doing today? I'm doing great, Paul. Thanks for having me on the show. Yeah, thanks for coming on the show. So I'm really excited to talk about this thing something that while people can learn more about so an intro mention body fat overshooting for sustainable fat loss. So I think it's a really good place to start. What is body fat overshooting?

Philip Pape 02:24

Yeah, body fat overshooting is a concept that I think if if more people really understood it, it's probably the crux of many of the issues people have getting results. And I think the The term was coined by Layne Norton in fat loss forever years ago. And it's been used many times. But in a nutshell, it's the idea that every time we diet, we lose fat, but we also lose some muscle right there, there are a bunch of side effects that come along with that, that we can get into detail on that then cause us to want to eat, eat the weight right back and then some and overshoot the original body fat level that we had. And there's a sobering statistic that at least 1/3 and up to two thirds of people regain the weight they lose within a year and up to 95% will regain that within five years. Wow. Yeah. That's, that's crazy. That's kind of puts it in perspective, right? If you have some sort of goal, especially when it comes to fat loss,

Paul Hanton 03:26

like this one, get 33% chance of getting it back within a year. And then the vast majority people sound like they gain it back within five years.

Philip Pape 03:34

Yeah, it's it's and it actually is even more insidious than that. Right? Because we're gonna get into the body composition outcome of all of this. It's not just about weight. It's it's really about fat and body composition and overall health.

Paul Hanton 03:47

Yeah, and that's a good segue. So why people use weight loss, fat loss interchangeably. And, you know, I think I've been guilty of that myself a handful of times, sometimes it's easier just to generalize a weight loss. But what is it between fat loss and weight loss?

Philip Pape 04:06

Yeah, I think the the fitness industry and the way we've sold results over the years, has always focused on weight loss, because nobody comes to you saying, I need to gain more weight. Right? Right. It's something has happened over my lifetime. The older I get, the worse I feel. I look in the mirror. And every time I lose weight, I think I'm gonna be happy and yet, something's not right. My moods worse over time, my energy, my overall health, my blood markers, my strength, etc. And it just accelerates over time. And what we fail to realize is that there are very negative effects as being a human being over time if we don't give us ourselves the right stimulus, the right stimulus in terms of details we'll get into but things like training and protein, and so our bodies think, okay, I don't really need the muscle. You're not feeding me enough protein. I'm getting older. I'm sitting around all day, probably working from home now, and I just don't need this. So you start to lose the muscle and you start to get weak over time. And when we talk in the language of weight loss, yeah, it sells. And a lot of people know what you're talking about. But when I work with clients, it's it's how do we change our lifestyle, our habits, our skills and behaviors, so that we can improve our body composition, and then gain all the health benefits that come with that from increased strength to avoiding disease to just just greater vitality and, you know, healthy living.

Paul Hanton 05:33

Right? So I agree that the fitness industry sells weight loss. And most people, they what they want is fat loss, right? They they, especially for men, they want to go the body composition route, where they they are dropping fat, but they still retain some sort of muscle mass. But I agree that I think the fitness industry is really oversold weight loss. And that's what you see everywhere, when people what people really want is fat loss. But I do also want to talk about body composition. So maybe you can describe what is body composition? To me, the general audience, what does that mean? What does it look like body composition?

Philip Pape 06:14

Sure. I mean, in simplest terms are bodies made up of tissue, fat, organs, muscle bones. And the simplest way to describe body composition is how much of that is fat. So what is your body fat percentage, and for you know, there's a there's an essential level of fat we need to survive. So if you look at bodybuilders who are staged, lean, men can get down to three or 4%. Below that you would just die. Right? That's an insane level of leanness, and for women, it's 10%, higher than that roughly about 12%. And then there's a level of essential fat you need on top of that for health, right? It protects your organs. It's good for your hormones, and we need to have somewhere for men, it would be somewhere between 10 and 20%. Body fat and for women are going to be 20 to 30%. So that's what we mean by body composition. And most people, if they don't do anything about it will slowly slide higher and higher, you know, for men into the 20s and 30s. As they get older.

Paul Hanton 07:12

Yeah. And I think I know, one of the big myth, maybe back maybe it's gotten better now. I think it's gotten better now of how, you know, fat is bad, right? But like you just like you mentioned, we our body actually needs some sort of some some level of fat to to just survive, right? Not not excel, but just to survive. And I think I think we've moved maybe, hopefully move past that in the industry. But I know for me, that was one of the myths I held for a long time that fat is bad. fat is bad. And but really, we our body needs a certain level of fat, just to survive.

Philip Pape 07:51

Yeah, and I think like, especially when I have female clients who they just want to lose weight right away, right, we talk about body composition. It's it's like, even if you focus on losing weight, and think that's gonna get you to your level of leanness, a lot of what you're losing is not fat, it's also muscle. And that's part of the problem.

Paul Hanton 08:11

Right? Right. And so let's talk about body composition. That's another word you mentioned. So what we talked about body composition, which is like that percentage of fat that you have, what is body composition? So someone said, hey, I want to, you know, decrease fat, but keep my keeping in the lean muscle mass that I have. But what is body composition? Mean?

Philip Pape 08:34

Sure. And I guess I would split into two definitions. One is what people go after. That's like the Holy Grail of building muscle and losing fat at the same time, which is, it's possible in a few cases, it's possible if you're very overweight, because you haven't significant fat reserve your effectively. Even when you're in a deficit, it's almost like you're in a slight surplus, right? Initially, because you have the extra fat, right? And then in brand new lifters have never lifted before. Because it gets such a huge stimulus to build muscle, that even if they diets slightly or at maintenance that they can recomp. So that's that's re composition. But we could also think of it in terms of just over time changing our body composition. And we can't focus on just one half of the equation. We can't just focus on losing, right? Yes. When I when I have to get a new client and convince them that, you know, if they want to lose 30 pounds, at some point, we want to build muscle. We generally still start with a fat loss phase after after we go through a pre diet maintenance and prep phase, of course. But then once they get there, and once they realize the importance of muscle, then we turn it around and we say Okay, now let's focus on building muscle, which very few people do. Right? And when they do it, they often don't do it for long enough. They'll do it for three months, say Oh, I'm starting to get fat and then they want to cry. And my general recommendation is to build for at least six to nine months, if you've never done it before, because that's where all the wonderful new gains are going to be.

Paul Hanton 10:05

Yeah, those newbie gains, just very popular newbie gains. So you mentioned, like you recommend people will do the six to nine months of just strength training, especially if they're new. And I think that's really, really important consideration, especially if you're starting out. And you're brand new, because those newbie gains are very real. And so what you're saying is, the longer you can prolong that, the more of the longer you get those benefits from being that newer lifter, right?

Philip Pape 10:33

Yeah, that's it, there's, there's some sort of threshold where, like, the anabolic threshold, whatever you want to call it, after a few months, where it starts to kick in, your metabolism really starts to ramp up. And especially for a new lifter, a brand new lifter is going to have what they call neuro muscular adaptation, right for the first three months or so when you're doing a novice program, you have this inherent level of strength that your body is capable of, but you're not quite expressing it until you start getting under heavy barbell for a while. And so you start to recruit more and more of those muscle fibers and develop into your maximum maximal strength. And then you start to develop new and bigger muscle tissue at that point. So there's like this threshold where it starts and then it starts to take off. So if you don't let it go long enough, you're not gonna, you're gonna see that can be very inefficient for years.

Paul Hanton 11:18

Right. And then after that, after those newbie gains, that's when the real work starts. Right. The fun stuff, right? Just trying to try to make a little bit of progress. But yeah, so let's jump into what happens when your body when you actually start to lose weight or fat. So what is what are some sort of adaptations that your body goes through? When you start to decrease weight or fat?

Philip Pape 11:42

Yeah, and I liked the way you put that as adaptations, because I think people have to understand that the body is very dynamic. It does adapt whatever you do to it. But it never breaks and never like totally, you know, falls apart. We I've heard the term broken metabolism. Again, it's a sales tactic, in my opinion, say, well, your metabolism is broken and needs to be fixed. Really? No, it's downregulated. So what happens when you're dieting, let's talk about the average person who isn't doing the things we're going to talk about a little bit later, or who's maybe sedentary with a standard diet. And they use a typical restrictive diet, either cutting calories, and or cutting food or food groups, like keto or all the fat, I've done them all myself, okay. And so so you're doing that. And what happens is, you start to lose weight pretty quickly, initially, and your metabolism will start to decline right away your your daily energy expenditure, so the amount of calories you burn, right, so one of the first plateaus people get to is, hey, I'm eating on so few calories, and yet, I'm not losing weight, I can't lose weight, when in reality, it's you're probably losing weight way too quickly. And your metabolism is keeping up with that. And now you need to cut further because you're not doing the other things that we do to try to diet on war calories. Right? Right. There's a lot of hormonal changes, right, your your thyroid hormone decreases, that affects your metabolism, cortisol goes up, that's stress, leptin and ghrelin, which regulate fat cells as well as appetite change. So what happens is, as you're losing weight quickly, and you're not training, and you're losing muscle, all these things create a vicious cycle, where you experience number one, muscle loss induced appetite. Number two hormone induced appetite. And then and then when you you, you get to the bottom of that diet, you're so ravenous, and you've been restricting so much that you just now want to binge on high, high carb, high salt, high sugar type foods, or high fat foods that nature is telling you, it would be the best thing to bring into your body to get back to good health. Right? And, and that's what basically accelerates the desire to binge back. What causes you to overeat and body fat overshoot? And then on the way up, when you regain that weight, here's what people have to understand all that muscle you lost, which could be up to half the tissue, right? So let's say you lost 20 pounds, maybe 10 pounds with that as muscle. If you regain that 20 pounds back, most of that is fat. So every time you're cycling up and down and up and down, you end up with the same weight, but fatter and fatter.

Paul Hanton 14:26

Yeah, yeah. I think that's something what you what you mentioned initially about the people would generally just decrease their calories to an unhealthy amount. Which, which makes sense, right? We talked about being a caloric deficit. And so you think well, okay, well, I'm going to keep decreasing my calories in July. But then you have to ask yourself, Okay, at what point are you going to stop rikes 500 calories a day? You know, 100 right there. It doesn't really the logic doesn't really make sense when you start to really think through Okay, yeah. EDB caloric deficit, but But how far can you go and I think people sometimes go too far, and they got hit that plateau, then they can get they realize they can't go any further. They kind of get stuck.

Philip Pape 15:10

Yeah, exactly. And so that's, that's why I think it's very important to spend some time bringing up your maintenance calories to a higher level that where you can diet on a higher level. Now, you can't just magically do that. There's there's two pieces that I think make the biggest impact. Based on what I've seen, based on what the evidence supports. One is going to be training, you know, strength training, where not not the training itself, which does burn some calories, it's the adding muscle mass again, talking about body composition, that increases your base level of metabolic rate. And because muscle is more expensive than than fat, and then the other is activity. But here's where people go off the rails again, because a lot of people think of activity as cardio, like tons of cardio hours and hours on a treadmill. When in reality, we just need to move and generally that steps. So it's, you know, I used to tell people step count, because if you look at our ancestors, right, they had to move all day, they had to expend energy all day. We don't do that today. But as little as an extra two or 4000 steps a day can probably up your calorie burn by several 100 calories every day.

Paul Hanton 16:18

Yeah, and you touched on a one one big misconception or mistake that people make when it comes to trying to lose lose weight or lose fat is reliant over relying on cardio or only focusing on cardio or, or thinking that that's the only way that's the best way, or the only way to lose weight and fat. So how do you help people kind of understand that, you know, cardio has a lot of benefits for you. But when it comes to weight loss, fat loss, strength training is just gonna be better for you.

Philip Pape 16:51

Yeah, I mean, it's hard, it's hard to convince people who do the pilates and the orange theory and CrossFit, and they're just so into all of these things. And that's where you have to develop a relationship of trust. And, and basically, have them try, you know, an effective training program and understand what that's all about. And that we have goals we have, we have a goal, and our goal requires us to prioritize certain things, and we can't do everything. If you want to be a world class tennis player, or marathon runner, fine, we're gonna have to focus on that. If you're trying to improve your body composition, then then strength is where it's at. And too much cardio is going to interfere with the recovery from that lifting, which then interferes with the adaptation from the lifting. And that's how we build muscle. It also can send our bodies and endurance signal that, hey, we're it kind of conflicts with the strength training signal, it basically tells our body, try to be more efficient with calories, because I see you really need them, you're moving a lot every day, be efficient, and thus bring down your metabolism. Right? So what a lot of people find is that they start, they go from hours and hours of cardio to three days a week in the gym for an hour, and all of a sudden the metabolism starts to go

Paul Hanton 18:06

up. Right, right. And then another another common mistake that you mentioned already, but I want to talk a little more about as the extreme restriction around what you're eating or even caloric intake. And I think the fitness industry pushes that a lot, right? Because it sells well. So when it comes to those extreme, restrictive diets, or people dropping their calories to unhealthy mount levels, how do you help people kind of overcome that?

Philip Pape 18:39

Yeah, I think a lot of people that are seeking help with their nutrition have have tried these diets? And the answer, you don't want to ask them? Did it work for you? The answer is always for a time. Like it worked for a time well, why did it stop working? Well, I can't not eat carbs for the rest of my life. Or I can't, you know, whatever, whatever restriction it is, you know, if it's carnivore, I can't just not eat vegetables. Maybe some people can't. But but it comes down to sustainability, right? And yeah, maybe it's a buzzword, maybe we throw it around a lot. But how do you solve both sides of the equation one is trying to lose weight and maintain a healthy body composition, and the other is eating things I enjoy for the rest of my life. Right? And a lot of people think those two aren't compatible. They think of dieting as an on off switch. Okay, now I'm in dieting mode. So I'm going to start cutting everything out. Okay, I'm done. Now what? Like how do I sustain it? Do I just eat everything I used to not eat or that I cut out but less of it. I don't know what to do. So, we tend to work on from a principle of some people call it flexible dieting. But I basically say if, if it's consistent with your lifestyle, right? If it's foods you enjoy, we try to fit them in, but we understand where each where it serves. You and your goals. So if doughnuts are a non negotiable, okay, let's find a way to fit a doughnut in and maybe it's a homemade donut. Or maybe it's you know, one versus two donuts, you know, there's decisions we can make. And there are occasionally hard rules people need to set for themselves when things are just completely triggering for them. But I don't want you to just say, I'm not having carbs. Hey, this is Philip pape, letting you know that applications are now open for one on one coaching. If you're a busy working professional, who has tried dieting, and exercising for years, with little in the way of results, and you want to lose fat, get lean or feel confident in your body without excessive dieting, cardio or restrictions, just go to wits & weights.com/coaching, to apply.

Paul Hanton 20:48

Yeah, and that sustainability piece, you mentioned, really ties back into those statistics, you mentioned in the first half of the first part of the episode about breather thriller, a third of the a third of people, the 30 people in the first year just ate it back. And then the 95% of people gain it back within five years. That goes back to sustainability, like you mentioned. And so I also am a big proponent of what we call flexible dieting, of trying to incorporate, try not to restrict people from eating some of the foods that they love, and they just cannot do without for a long period of time. I think people can maybe suffer through it for a month or two. But it's really hard for people just to go without it for the rest of their lives. And as against sustainability, and thinking long term about how you approach your nutrition. And your health. Yeah, totally

Philip Pape 21:37

agree. Yeah. And then and then the other piece of that, of course, is the the macro balance all the things that we do, as part of that dieting approach that most people don't do, for example, the big thing, and we can call this a mistake, or we can call it a solution, but most people don't get nearly enough protein. Right? That's a huge one right there. Every client that comes in who who doesn't already have a good solid education on this stuff is probably under eating by 50 to 75%. Yeah. Right. I mean, you have 170 pound female eating 60 or 50 grams of protein a day, and she needs to be eating 140. And of course, in the from week one, it's how the heck do I do that? Right? And that's what we that's where the education, awareness and skills come in?

Paul Hanton 22:26

Yeah, yeah, exactly. That's another common mistake, the macro balance is very easy. It's very easy to consume carbs, especially in here in Texas. And so yeah, I see that all the time, too, is the skewed macro balance of not enough protein, but, you know, overall reading on the carbs and fat. But I agree, I think part a lot a large part of it is just education and educating people on proper nutrition habits. And I think just another key thing is just making sure people plan ahead too, as well, which was meal prepping. And, and he'll put together a grocery list and, and again, like the triggering foods that they may that may trigger them to overeat or, you know, stuff like that. But yeah, I think this education around proper macro balance, why protein is important goes a long way knows a lot of my clients.

Philip Pape 23:20

Yeah, for sure. And you mentioned some some great tips in there, including the, the planning ahead. I mean, just in general, that's a that's something people are missing. And why we often emotionally eat or overeat is we make decisions in the moment. So if you tie that into protein, for example, someone listening who's thinking, I need to go from 50 grams of protein a day to 100/41 of all you have to know that you're eating 50. And the only way you know that is to log it somehow. My clients log because I think it's an educational tool. I think it's a great habit to learn about food and how much is in food. And I grew up eating foods out. But you could also do Fun, fun tricks or techniques like pre logging your food for the next day. Or for the weekend. If you're going to go to a party or event just pre log in and see what it looks like. Or, Hey, I can't get enough protein. So how do I do that? Well, let's do the math. You have have to get 160 grams of protein, you only eat twice a day, you have to slam down 80 grams a meal. That's probably not feasible, right? Unless you're in Texas with the barbecue, right? Yeah. But so then you do the math, say okay, maybe I need to eat four or five times. And each of those has to have 30 grams of protein. Well, how do I do that? And how do I have the groceries for that doing? Am I incorporating dairy and eggs and meat and all the things I need for that?

Paul Hanton 24:39

Yeah, that's a good. So we talked about some common mistakes that people make and I think it's also good to discuss what people can do better how people what people should be doing. Instead, he brought up a really good point around finding out where they're at first. So like you mentioned, if someone doesn't know how much protein they're eating I know that you can do like intuitive eating. But I'm also a big one to like you have of tracking that way you want education, so you understand what you're putting in your body and how much. I think another common mistake people make is they say, they under under zoom over, zoom, under, over over zoom. Understand how much they're eating right over zoom.

Philip Pape 25:20

Yeah, under underestimate.

Paul Hanton 25:23

underestimate how much they're actually eating for sure. Yeah. And then when they started tracking, they go, Oh, wow, that's a lot. Okay. So I think education piece is really important. But so when it comes to what people should be doing, you mentioned, the training. So let's talk about the training. What should someone's training be focused on if they're looking to lose weight, or especially for fat loss?

Philip Pape 25:45

Yeah, so I love I love talking about training. And I know a lot of nutrition coaches don't get a lot into that. But it's a huge part of my life and what my my clients have to train like, they always have to train, you know, that's the big missing ingredient for most people to give you that stimulus for muscle growth. So I like to start with principles. I hear myself in the recording. Do you hear that?

Paul Hanton 26:09

No, I don't have my headphones on sign on. Alright.

Philip Pape 26:11

Alright. So I'd like to start with principles, the first big principle is going to be mechanical tension, that whatever you're doing in the gym, you have to have sufficient stress on your muscle. Usually, this comes from very heavy weights, right. And this could be could be barbells. But it could be dumbbells, it could be machines, whatever. I'm not going to be dogmatic about it. But But most people are lifting in high rep range, high volume lightweights. And they need to put a lot more stresses on muscle. So that's mechanical tension. The second principle is going to be maximum effort. Whatever you're doing, it has to be training hard. So even if it is a while, or if it's three reps, those last few reps have to be really hard and feel like something you've never done before. Right? Right. Big missing, greedy. And then the third principle is going to be progressive overload. So a lot of people will go into the gym, and they'll do the same thing over and over again, and they won't change the weights. But we need to increase the load, right, we need to add weight to the bar, add weight to the dumbbells, or add reps. They're both effective. For beginners, I recommend, you know, focusing on weight and just going literally adding five pounds to the bar every session so that your body gets greater and greater stress each time that it adapts to and you come back stronger each time.

Paul Hanton 27:36

Yeah, like I said that adaptation is key, right? You're wise and adapt to whatever you throw it. And that includes what it how if you do stress at it, ie lifting weights, right, so your body's gonna adapt to that. And you mentioned a great point about progressive overload. I think that's something that people overlook, they don't think about and so I make all my clients track their workouts that way we can see our how are they doing in their workouts? Because you mentioned how important intensity is for your workouts in order to see any sort of adaptations for your body. Because if you're just you know, kind of lollygagging through a workout and you're really comfortable, we'll Good on you. But I don't know it's really going to have any sort of adaptations, right?

Philip Pape 28:16

Yeah, exactly. I mean, and I'd like to illustrate this through videos for people and show them kind of what somebody looks like who's really working. And it might be myself, it might be Hey, guys, this is what you have to look like when you're training hard. It's tough being an online coach, you know, as opposed to like an in person personal trainer, because you need them to send you videos to do format checks. And like you said, track their factor reps and weight and see, are they actually progressing like you would expect if they're truly getting stronger?

Paul Hanton 28:44

Right, right. So we talked about training, let's talk about nutrition as well. So you mentioned making sure someone gets enough protein of crucial protein is so when it comes to nutrition, and so wants to focus on say fat loss, what can they do with your nutrition? How should they structure their nutrition? At a high level?

Philip Pape 29:04

Yeah. So there's a couple of things. First, we want to have the macro balance sorted out, right. So we talked about that before, of starting with protein, always starting with routine and making sure you're getting roughly a gram per pound of target body weight. But we know there's a wide range anywhere from point seven to 1.2. And if you're getting currently point three

Paul Hanton 29:28

different Yeah, right, right baby

Philip Pape 29:30

steps, it's let's work with the client. And if you know, let's work them and titrate them up toward that level. So it starts with protein, fat 20 to 30% of your calories is usually doable for most people unless they come from keto and they have to have more, and then the rest goes to carbs. And you might find that it's more carbs than you're used to eating with some of these diets. All right, on a fat loss phase. What you're going to do then is select your target weight and you want it go with a reasonable deficit. And the evidence supports a deficit of between a quarter to 1% of your weight per week, right. And the sweet spot for most people that I've seen is around a half percent 2.75. Because if you go too, too aggressive, it's just too few calories for most people. So if you're 200 pounds, you're looking at maybe one and a half pounds a week, something like that. And when you do the math that comes out to what 4500 calories a week deficit, which is, which is four to 600 calories a day, something like that, just doing quick math, which is just not terrible. For most people, if you have a metabolism, that's around 2200 calories, that's gonna put you at 1800, for example, 1700. But that's, that brings us back to why we need to diet on more calories and bring that metabolism up. Okay, I have a client who I've never seen, it's so extreme, but he was very overweight, we're talking maybe 5060 pounds overweight, he trained when he was younger, he got pretty jacked when he was in his 20s. And now he's in his 40s. So that that's a point going for him. Because if you train before it comes back quickly. And we started them diet dieting at the full 1%. And his his expenditure, his metabolism just keeps climbing and climbing and climbing. Because he's strength training, and he's getting protein. And then the next thing I haven't talked about, but getting steps. So he's doing all these things. And every week we say, man, let's just let's just stay where you're at your deficit is getting bigger and bigger without even changing your calories. Yeah, yeah. So it's, it's I don't throw in a lot of things that people and I could go there. There are other things that support this, like stress, sleep, recovery, and so on, we can get into but those are the big ones.

Paul Hanton 31:42

Yeah, I think one of the key things that you mentioned is taking that gradual approach and not looking to lose 10 pounds in a week, right, trying to do something in a healthy and more, say more importantly, but also as just as important as sustainability, right. And making sure that whatever your clients do, is something that they can sustain for a long period of time. Because if you look at health as a, as a lifelong pursuit, or endeavor, whatever you do, is gonna have to be sustainable. I know I've seen people start and stop things, and they'll start for a month or two then quit. And that's because they're just trying to go from 00 to 100, you know, overnight with their training or their nutrition. And really, he's gotta look at a gradual baby steps, like you mentioned, right? Just take baby steps to where you need to go or where you want to go.

Philip Pape 32:35

Yeah, I mean, it's about progress and process. And that gets to tumors, all right, because if you can't stick to it, if it's not enjoyable, you won't get anywhere. And I liked the point you made about the the deficit itself being part of sustainability, meaning besides all the food selection, quality, and so on, the fact that you are measuring, tracking, and then trying to stick to a certain glide path that is conservative, conservative enough, is part of sustainability. Because along the way, now you get time to figure out, okay, how do I eat a little bit more fiber, and a little bit more fruits that have more water in them. So I don't get as hungry, you start to learn these techniques as you go on the way down. And then when you've lost all the weight, and not much muscle because you're doing it right? When you come back in a surplus. You don't just go start eating pop tarts and pizza. Okay, and kind of scale up the things you just learned to eat, and maybe incorporate some treats along the way. But it's sustainable.

Paul Hanton 33:32

Yeah, exactly. It's a lot of the same foods, whether you scale up or scale down, right. It's mostly just the quantity that and the macronutrient profile. But yeah, again, like sustainability and education. Do you like you mentioned just educating your clients or people in general on on proper habits additionally be adopting? So I think that's a I know that there's a lot of information out there on the on the internet when it comes to fitness and health and who do you listen to? Who do you trust? So sometimes I know it's hard on the outside looking in to kind of filter through the Bs in terms of what you actually should be doing. But I think two things that I always stress is just make sure it's sustainable. You know, you don't want to over commit or overdue if you've never done anything like this before. And then just educate yourself, right? There's a lot of resources out there to educate yourself. But education and sustainability are two key key things that everyone should be doing if they want to make they're really committed to health for the rest of their life.

Philip Pape 34:29

Yeah, I agree. I mean, education is a huge gap and podcasts like yours hydro fitness podcasts like mine Wits, & Weights, right there are, I mean, that's how I learned a lot about nutrition is through through podcasts. And that's a big piece. And then once you have the education where people get stuck is just doing it by themselves. Right. And you know, some people have, I don't want to call it discipline or willpower. It's just everybody's different and some people have the willpower Fall to just kind of hold themselves accountable, and many more people need extrinsic motivation to get started. But once you get started and start getting those results and developing the habits, it starts to stick. And again, the sustainability piece comes in where a habit can be developed in maybe three to six weeks, and you start to stack on habits. And before long before, you know, say, three months of this process, you're really well equipped to do this for the rest of your life on your own.

Paul Hanton 35:24

Yeah, absolutely. I think that the action taking action pieces was also a huge challenge for a lot of people and education is important. But you also have to take action to incorporate that education or do something. If you don't you want to improve your health or lose weight or lose fat. So I think that's a really great point is to not forget to take action, right? And we will need help. We need new trainers like us to help now with that, to be able to rely on their intrinsic motivations that people need extrinsic motivation, their spouse or their kids, right. So that take an action piece is really, really crucial. So before we wrap up this episode, I think it's been really a really great discussion and a lot of great points. We talked talk through what are some last minute takeaways or big things you want people to get out of this after listening?

Philip Pape 36:16

Yeah, there's a lot of takeaways here. Yeah, there's a lot of takeaways, I think, the big takeaway is the thing about weight loss, that there's, there's a different way to think about this, that we don't have to struggle for the rest of our lives thinking that it's a constant battle of dieting and gaining weight, that we can take control of our not only our physique, which I know a lot of people get into this, because they just want to look better in the mirror. But our health, and I think that that cannot be overstated, is that if you're worried about diabetes, or heart disease, or fertility, or some you know, frailty and old age, at any age, you can start to turn that ship around, you can you can avoid what 95% of people experience with sarcopenia osteopenia, all these disease, diseases of aging, and take control of your vitality. By telling your body Hey, you've got to be stronger and more capable in this physical world that humans evolved in, by getting by, you know, strength, training protein and other things that we talked about.

Paul Hanton 37:24

Right? Yeah, I think that thing is a really great point to end the episode on is, when you look at health over the rest of your life, like one there's, it's not too late to start, you know, if let's say you, you were training and then you stop in kind of wondering if, when they get back on the bandwagon, we'll start tomorrow or start start today, right, there's, you can start at any point in time when it comes to the rest of your life for your health. And I think the other thing is to like, again, is want to keep reiterating sustainability. If you start something, but then you're only going to last for two months, who is not really going to help you out. And so whatever someone decides to do, and I'm a big proponent of strange training, but you know, some people don't like it, some people don't want to do that, you will rather go ride their bike or run, which I don't like so, you know, props to them. But whatever someone does, it needs to be sustainable, and they need to have some sort of enjoyment behind it. Otherwise, we'll just quit. So, again, I just want to reiterate how important sustainability is.

Philip Pape 38:29

Yeah, I agree. Fun, balance all of those things. You know, you don't want to be crazy, the crazy weirdo who is just an exercising their family. Just live your life and enjoy. I agree. Those are those are great words to live by.

Paul Hanton 38:44

Yep. And I think that's a great a great ending point. So Phillip, thanks again for coming on the show. Really got a pleasure talking to you. And I think there's some really, really, really great takeaways that people are gonna get from this episode.

Philip Pape 38:56

Thank you, Paul. I also enjoyed the conversation was a ton of fun. Thanks for having me on.

Paul Hanton 39:00

Anytime.

Philip Pape 39:04

Philip Pape 12/20/22 Philip Pape 12/20/22

Ep 37: Training and Nutrition for Strength & Endurance, Managing Recovery for Longevity, and Backcountry Mountain Hunting with Josh Isley

My guest is Josh Isely, a 42-year-old mechanical engineer who loves hunting the backcountry and mountains but who also rides a desk every day. We talk about strength, lifelong health, training for events, avoiding overtraining, and lots more.

Today is a special one because it’s our first episode featuring a member of our Wits & Weights Facebook community, so I’m very much looking forward to this conversation.

We’re going to get into strength, lifelong health, training for events, avoiding overtraining, and lots more today.

My guest today is Josh Isely, a 42-year-old mechanical engineer who loves hunting the backcountry and mountains but who also rides a desk every day.

He was an athlete in high school and as happens to many people, relied on his natural abilities for too long and, in his own words, “let himself go a bit.” Josh was inconsistent with training and developed a bad relationship with food.

He spent the last several years training on and off for hunts and finally got it dialed in this year in preparation for a mountain goat hunt!

Josh still struggles with food and binging but is getting better all the time; his program worked well as he was able to climb much better than he could last year. He is now moving into recovery mode and beginning to prepare for New Zealand in the spring.

Topics discussed in this episode:

Josh’s background and how he finds time to go hunting
Why motivation is not enough (and what we should do instead)
How we avoid overtraining (especially as we age)
How to minimize the impact on aging/ailing joints
Dealing with setbacks (injuries/anxiety/depression) and how to overcome those
Managing the dichotomy of strength vs. endurance
Balancing training for longevity with specific events
What recovery looks like (and training periodization) in preparation for his event in New Zealand
Strategies to overcome the urge to binge on processed food
Dealing with the influences of your support structure when they don't “get” your nutrition/training

RELATED LINKS

Talk to Josh in the Wits & Weights Facebook community
Watch the episode on video here

🎙️ ABOUT THE SHOW
At Wits & Weights, we help you achieve optimal health that fits your lifestyle—without excessive dieting, cardio, or food restriction . Philip Pape, podcast host and head nutrition coach, helps high-achieving people burn fat, get lean, feel energized, and project confidence in their lives through one-on-one nutrition and lifestyle coaching at witsandweights.com.

👉 Just go to witsandweights.com/coaching to connect with me.
👥 To join our Facebook community for live training, free guides, free challenges, and more, just click here.

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Transcript

Philip Pape 00:08

Philip Pape 00:30

Welcome, everyone, to another episode of Wits & Weights. Today is a special one because it's the first episode I've ever done featuring a member of our Wits, & Weights, Facebook group, and he's got a unique backstory. He's got some exciting, very interesting performance related pursuits that we're going to chat about. So I'm really looking forward to this conversation. We're gonna get into strength, lifelong health training for events, avoiding overtraining, especially as we age, and more topics just like that. My guest today is Josh Isley, a 42 year old mechanical engineer who loves hunting the back country and mountains but who also rides a desk every day, we can relate. He was an athlete in high school and as happens to many people. He relied on his natural abilities for too long, and in his own words, let himself go a bit. Josh was inconsistent with training and developed a bad relationship with food. He spent the last several years training on and off for hunts. And he finally got it dialed in this year in preparation for mountain goat hunts. Josh still struggles with food and binging but is getting better all the time, his program worked well, because he was able to climb much better than he could last year. And he's now moving into recovery mode, beginning to prepare for New Zealand in the spring. We were just talking about that. Before we started recording. Josh, I appreciate you coming on the show, man. I'm excited to get into training, nutrition, whatever you want to talk about.

Josh Isley 01:54

Yeah. Thanks for having me. Philip pape, I appreciate it. Exciting. Yeah. It's

Philip Pape 01:57

very cool, man. So in the intro, I mentioned how you're an engineer, 42 years old, by the way you love the outdoors, you have a desk job. And I can relate. I'm also 42 also an engineering background. And I'm also at a desk most of the day. So if you don't mind.

Philip Pape 02:13

Just tell us a bit about what you do. And maybe how you find time to go hunting and anything else about your background? Sure. Yeah. I mean, you said it in the intro, right. I, I was an athlete in high school, I've always enjoyed being active.

Josh Isley 02:27

I come from kind of an active family and my father was a good athlete as well, but kind of let things go after high school. I always loved hunting. As I got older, I found the mountains in the backcountry and really wanted to be able to do that. But I don't know if you've ever tried to climb a mountain when you're not in shape, but you can't cheat the mountain. So there's only only one way to do it. And that's to get in really good shape. And be consistent with your training. So I started taking lunch breaks and running. My knees kind of got beat up. So when I would walk,

Josh Isley 03:04

I got a bike this year, to try to limit the impact on my joints. And just made nutrition and weight training a focus of my life I made it made it a priority and started to build the discipline around that. I did a last year in Colorado, that was really high. And I really struggled. My joints hurt my muscles ached. It was it was painful. And it was kind of a wake up call that as I get older, I'm not going to be able to rely on my natural talents and abilities. And I have to put in the effort and the work to keep doing the things I want to do as we age. Fair enough. Yeah. So when you started climbing years ago, I don't know how long ago that was. But you said you weren't really in shape and ready for it. And it sounds like you've pushed yourself over the years, even as you've tried to train and keep up with that. Right? That initial climate was that? Are we talking rock climbing? Are we talking just steep kind of hiking? Not? Not just I know it's a lot to hike a mountain for hours on end? What are we talking about? Yeah, no, no technical climbing. I don't have crampons or ropes and carabiners and things. It's really just being able to move heavy weight over long distances for a long period of time. off trail, you know, being able to bend at the waist with 80 pounds on your back and go over deadfall there's a lot of beetle kill in places like Idaho and Colorado, right. So it's these animals have been hunted extensively for a lot of years. And they live in some pretty nasty places now, so to be able to take 1800 or 2500 feet elevation changes, right? It's really just climbing climbing up avalanche chutes, climbing around through timber up and over screen slides and things like that to get to where they are. Okay, and when you talk about carrying a lot of weight on your back and having to bend over. And you know, I think of these, we focus a lot on functional movements when it comes to training but then there are movements you need in real life that you don't necessarily

Philip Pape 05:00

use every day, but are special specific to something like that right? Like so I'm thinking of a good morning a back a barbell Good morning is like, movement, right? And now we're gonna change that was, as you found yourself getting a little bit more beat up from these more difficult climbs, what what was the biggest factor you you thought to yourself, I need to do better or if if I had done that over again, this is what I would focus on.

Josh Isley 05:22

Yeah, so that was the kind of the case last year I struggled with a few things and what I focused on in my training last winter, and this through the summer, leading into this false Hunt was a lot of unilateral work, single leg stuff, right, if you slip and fall, you're gonna catch yourself with one leg. So a lot of unilateral work in Single Leg deadlifts, single leg squats, step ups, step downs, just things to be able to and then mobility, right. So even having the strength but being able to have joint mobility, everything's uneven, rocky terrain, slippery terrain, and things like that. A lot of core work, I could use a lot more. But I definitely tried to focus, focus on my core. And then as funny as it looked, I would take my backpack into the gym, and I'd wear it while I'm working out, I would try to do things with that backpack to mimic that it's hard to mimic that with free weights. So having that pack strapped on with a bag of sand in the back of it walking up and down stairs on the stairclimber or up and over plyo boxes and things like that.

Philip Pape 06:26

Nice. So specificity is what you're talking about is like just do the movement you need to train for as well as everything else. Unilateral movements. I think a lot of people, they're not a big fan of them in the gym, right? We focus so much on bilateral stuff squats, deadlifts, but, I mean, what would you say about those just for the general population? Even if they don't have to do an event like that? Is there value in doing those?

Josh Isley 06:50

I think so. Right? I mean, it's not as impressive to the lady sitting across the gym when you're only moving 40 pound dumbbells with unilateral movements. But I think that it's a novel stimulus for a lot of people who haven't done it before. And then you spend 12 weeks or eight weeks on unilateral movement, and you go back to a standard squat or standard deadlift, and I think you'll see improvement, it helped my joints, a lot of times my knees are pretty beat up so my knees will hurt. But the more that I focus on really good form and technique and strengthening those muscles and making the muscles do the work, my joints feel better. And then I'm able to move move better when I'm back into heavyweight.

Philip Pape 07:31

Okay, now, let's talk about mindset a bit, because I know you said you were inconsistent with your training, because you had some natural talents. And a lot of people struggle with that a lot of people know what to do they know how to do it even just don't do it. And rely a lot on willpower, you know, which is a finite resource or motivation, or hire somebody like me, who's a coach to kind of give him extrinsically. But why would you say that? That's, you know, motivation is not enough. And we need to, I think you call it build a discipline? Well, we were talking earlier about this.

Josh Isley 08:02

Yeah, well, I'm just like most other people, right, I get really motivated in spurts. And so it's really easy to go to the gym when I don't have a deadline at work, or I don't have a date or whenever else. My son doesn't need me for something. But I found that for me, what I needed to do was it was just like, I had to make it like brushing my teeth or cooking dinner or whatever else. It was just, it's what I did. And so there wasn't any excuse, or any reason to say well, I can't go it's just Well, I, I do go this is what I do. It's part of my day, it's in my calendar. For me, that's what it took. Because otherwise, the minute that I could find an excuse, I would,

Philip Pape 08:41

yeah, so it's what you did. I mean, that's the classic line. It's what I did, like brushing your teeth. And you mentioned a calendar that you dropped a little hint about one of the ways you do it is you schedule it in or reminders on your phone. How do you do that?

Josh Isley 08:55

Yeah, it's I don't, I guess I don't have a real calendar that I put it in, but it's just in my in my head and my calendar, the one thing that I would do is block off an hour and a half at lunchtime. I don't know about how your work is but if I have an open spot in my calendar, someone will fill it. So I would make sure that every other day I had an hour and a half to go and do my cardio. So I would run or ride a bike in the summertime or have a stair climber in my basement. And that was my time. It just if I didn't do it at lunch, I didn't want to do it. I could find a way to go to the gym after work. And I needed more time my gym routine was kind of longer anyway. And I had to drive I live in the middle of nowhere. So I had to drive and get to the gym. But I needed that that lunchtime cardio I found that if I tried to get up early, I couldn't get out of bed. I didn't wasn't motivated after work. My brain just was tired. I wanted to eat dinner and sit down. I couldn't do it. So I had to find a time that worked for me and make sure that that's just what I did. That was my lunchtime routine on Tuesdays Thursdays and Saturdays. I ran or biked or hike to a rock. Yes, that part of my part of my day.

Philip Pape 09:57

Yeah, and that's awesome advice. A couple of things. There's one the fact that you thought ahead and you planned it in, and you blocked it out, right? It's the same idea when people say they can't get enough steps. It's like, well, you know, find something you do every day and connect it with that activity, maybe it's lunch, and you're gonna eat out for half an hour, block an hour, like you said, out of your calendar block an hour. And that second half an hour is always going to be for walking. And what was the other thing you mentioned that, even if you do that, it has to work for you. So getting up early, and doing it late didn't work for you, just like, I can't train after the morning, because the day is just just gone for me. And some people are like, I couldn't train in the morning. So it's got to work for you. Yep. So now, I love the culture here of you working out and trying to stay fit, you know, regardless of age, age, just a number, and we're not in our 20s anymore. So we can't put in the same long, hard workouts every day, you know, six, seven days a week, like we would have liked to back then. How do we avoid overtraining, then?

Josh Isley 10:58

Yeah, that's a great question. And I didn't know the answer to that. So I was raised by parents who were entrepreneurs and small business owners, and they just worked and worked and worked. And my grandfather and my uncles were farmers, right. And so I was raised in this culture throughout the late 80s. And early 90s. It was nobody cares work harder, right? Just keep going. And so I kind of took that approach through high school and my wrestling coach was the same way. And I approached my fitness that way, and I found myself injured a lot. I mean, I was working through a doctor and growing poles, I ended up I still have an umbilical hernia, a lot of shoulder issues, right. And I just had this feeling listening to podcasts like yours and others, right? It was really great information, hey, it might be overtraining. So I actually went hired a personal trainer. To me, I felt like it was an investment, right? I pay health insurance and I go get a physical, I go to the dentist and take care of my teeth. Right? I put money away for retirement, why wouldn't I put the same investment in my body? So I squirreled away some money, and I hired her and she was like, Absolutely, you're overtraining, you need to need to back off, right. And so I think, just having that reinforcement from somebody else who I trusted as a professional, and then I was able to back things off a little bit and reevaluate. One of the problems I have is sleep, I don't sleep well. So I've been really trying to focus on that. And that's helped if I can, if I can get consistent sleep. And I don't push myself for two hours in the gym every single day. And I cut it back to maybe instead of three days, go to four days, shorter time periods or something like that and find what works, right. It took a while to kind of 00 in on what my body needed. But I didn't get injured after that. I had a lot better experience when I was able to stay more consistent. And so I ended up in a better place by doing less than where I was going by doing so much because I was constantly recovering from injury.

Philip Pape 12:53

Yeah, people need to hear that because I mean, we say 20s But really even starting in your late 20s, early 30s. These issues can start to creep up if you're overdoing it. And it sounds like before you got a personal trainer did did it enter your mind that you should do less? Or and you just didn't do last or did you not even consider it? Yeah.

Josh Isley 13:14

Oh no. I I struggled back and forth between this this inner monologue. I'm probably overtrained. Right, I can listen to Philip on on his podcast, and I can listen to these other people. And I can read these things. And I can look at I'm an engineer, right, I can look at everything that is happening to my body and how I feel and put the puzzle pieces together, then the back of my mind is, you know, put on your big boy pants to keep working hard. Yeah.

Philip Pape 13:40

I'm gonna lose my games. I'm not gonna be strong.

Josh Isley 13:43

Like, well, I can't take a day off because I'll eat too many calories. And I'll gain six pounds. But it's just it's, I think a lot of it has to do with what we're fed in the media to and through sales. People are trying to sell supplements or sell workout gear, whatever else it is. And I think we're fed a lot of misinformation. So

Philip Pape 13:59

yeah, I agree. And people come from from different angles. I know, a lot of my female clients, it's the idea of the more I move, the more calories I burn. That's how I keep the weight off. So of course, I'm gonna workout every day. And for guys like us, you know, we'd like to lift so on my Wednesday off day, I'm like, What am I what do I do? I guess I recover.

Josh Isley 14:19

So in for me, I was trying to be as strong as possible, but as small as possible. So I don't want to carry the weight on the mountain. So I don't want to be huge. I just want to be really, really strong and really, really lean. So we I was worried about the same thing. I don't want to put on a whole bunch of body fat and carry that up the mountain. So even though it's my off day, I'm gonna put 50 pounds on my pack and I'm gonna go rock for six miles, right? Well, you don't get a chance to heal.

Philip Pape 14:43

Yeah, fair enough. So that makes it even more difficult because now you're playing that game of strength to weight ratio. Same thing that a lot of endurance athletes go through. I guess I'm gonna go off on a tangent there, because I've worked with a few runners and it's always a balance of how much lifting do we do versus two training for your, you know, specific event and balancing recovery as well. Because I would love for them to work four days a week and get super strong, but it's going to beat them up and they're not going to be able to prep for the race, they're not going to get their their miles in. So what, what do you think about that philosophy training for that kind of event?

Josh Isley 15:19

Yeah, it's, it's interesting, I fight the same same battles. And what I found is I just split it down the middle, I was lifting three days a week and lifting heavy. And other three days a week, I was all about cardio and trying to get long distance endurance and muscle endurance. And so I was eating a lot of calories. So to try to keep that up, I was still in a deficit, but I was in when I quit. A week before my trip, I was 185 pounds, I was 10% body fat. And I was eating 3000 or 3200 calories, right, and I was maintaining or just just losing a little bit. So there's a lot of movement. But eating and feeding the body so that it could it could recover. But if I felt like if I just lifted and didn't do the cardio, it doesn't matter how strong I am. If I can't keep climbing, I can't keep moving because my muscles don't have the endurance. But I can I can run all day long. If I can't pick up the animal and put it in the backpack and carry it off the mountain, then then I'm stuck too. So I had to split it down the middle.

Philip Pape 16:20

Okay. And you said you were in a just a mild deficit going in and not even not necessarily trying to be it's just trying to keep up with the calories with Oh, I was trying to be you. Okay, so you were trying to trying to get the weight down in that way. Is that is that is that typically what's done as opposed to because I don't know, is as opposed to cutting ahead of time and then kind of maintaining or even trying to gain into the event? Just curious.

Josh Isley 16:44

Probably would have been better if I'd been gaining into the end of the event. But I felt like it did. Okay. Anyway, I, like we talked about before, I still struggle a little bit with my nutrition. And sometimes I go off the rails. And so I had done that. Earlier in the summer gained gained a little bit of fat back. And so I was still working on cutting that out you had to make my trainer wanted me to be eaten more for sure. Yeah, it's somebody went understanding on where I was going to

Philip Pape 17:11

be. It's relative to where you are. And you know, when you have an event, there's a time base to it that you just can't ignore, you know, the average Gen pop that has flexible schedule, can make it work, but you're like, I gotta go climb on this day. So it is what it is. That's reality. Okay, so continuing on with the training for old dudes. How do we minimize our impact on our joints? Because I'll tell you, I experienced this myself to just the joints are a little bit achy, a little, a little more alien as we get older. How do we minimize that?

Josh Isley 17:43

Well, that's a great question. And that's probably your expertise, I can tell you what, what helps me. What I noticed the most is definitely my nutrition. If I'm eating garbage, I feel like garbage and my, the inflammation in my body and my joints hurt. Right? If I go out and have a pizza and a couple of beers and ice cream, I'm gonna I'm gonna hurt the next day I swell up. And it's it's a problem. So I really have to watch my nutrition. And then it's funny, how little outta How do I want to put this, just the smallest little difference in form. And technique can have a big a big difference. And for me just having a professional, look at my lifts and critique my form and give me direction on what I should or shouldn't do. And when I was fighting through some of the shoulder issues, like what other exercises to do that can mimic the same CNS response, but not do the same damage to the joint was really helpful to me.

Philip Pape 18:46

Yeah, so okay, it's a few concepts here that are a goal that I want the listener to get out of that. So starting from the first thing you mentioned, nutrition, right, I talk a lot about on the show about flexible dieting, and how most types of foods can work within your diet. But at the same time, you have to go by how you feel and how your body responds. And what you just said was if you eat certain things, and they tend to be more processed, or maybe higher sodium, or what have you, it ramps up your inflammation. And I think people need to really think about their bodies and listen to it and maybe even journal or document their biofeedback associated with their food to see if that affects them. Because yeah, you might be able to eat pizza within your macros. But if it beats up your joints, or if you have inflammation or an autoimmune disease, a lot of people have those now. There's insulin sensitivity is all these things that come into play. So that's that's a good takeaway. The other one about form is also critical, right? Because people will complain about my knees hurt, and it's because I'm squatting Well, it's probably because you're squatting wrong. And if you squat it right out actually might make your knees feel really good. Or if your knees hurt and you don't squat, maybe starting to squat and doing it correctly could help your knees right. So these are all really good concepts for I

Josh Isley 20:00

learned that just in the last year or so, right, I avoided some things because my knees are so beat up, I'll likely need both my knees replaced as what I'm being told now. But the more I lift, and even the heavier I lift, the better I feel. I think it increases blood flow, it helps to lubricate your joints. There's, I mean, I'm not an exercise scientist, I'm just an engineer. But anecdotally, what I have really

Philip Pape 20:24

are mechanical engineers. So that's, that's like I draw.

Josh Isley 20:29

Yeah, a little bit. But I just, I just know, when I'm consistent, and I continue to do it, I feel better. And so I've been taking some time off, when I got back here tried to recover a little bit, I was in the gym yesterday, for the first time after a few weeks off, and my joints are sore they are they haven't been used that way in a while. So it's gonna take some time to get back into it. But now today, I feel good. I feel better today than I have felt in a couple of weeks with recovery. And I think it's because I was in the gym and I was moving. A body at rest stays at rest, a body in motion stays in motion. So I think we got to keep, keep doing it. It's hard to get that activation energy to get into it when we're used to sitting around or it's easy to get comfortable being being lazy. And I'm guilty of it for sure. But I always I always seem to find that when I get back to it and I'm moving and moving some weight. I my mental and my physical health is is better.

Philip Pape 21:23

Man, I totally agree with you. And for people listening, like once you get into it. And that's the thing, getting that first habit going, you'll find that you might wake up and your resource on your knees are sore, and you're just kind of achy. But it's the day that you work out, right. And you got to get yourself in the gym and all of a sudden you feel great. And if you do that enough times you kind of program yourself to know that that will come from that kind of makes it a little easier. But I agree with everything Josh was saying. I felt it I've been there. Even this morning, it was just cold and achy and gwydion it got it done and you feel much better.

Josh Isley 21:58

And I think we get a there's some times I feel some stereotypes and we feel like well, I can't go in and I can't squat 300 pounds. So I don't want to go to the gym, right? I don't want to be embarrassed or whatever. I just say go and do it. I went in yesterday. And I used a 50 pound kettlebell and I did some squats with the kettlebell and I did some deadlifts with the single kettlebell like I was moving, no weight compared to what I normally move. And I did push ups, right, I just needed to get back into the routine. We don't have to PR every time we go in there, it's not what it's about. For me, it's just about constant improvement and keeping my body healthy. So I can keep doing the things that I love as long as I can do them.

Philip Pape 22:39

Yeah. And people don't realize how little how little activity it actually takes to maintain your strength. So even once you have your strength, you can go through periods, like you're talking about where the reps, the intensity doesn't have to be nearly as high, you're not trying to PR all the time, and you're not going to lose all your gains.

Josh Isley 22:56

Now, ridiculously low, like 8% of the intensity or something to maintain.

Philip Pape 23:02

Yeah, what 1/8? So let's that that's about 8% as well, it's 12 and a half. Yeah, yeah, it's really low. And that could be like, when people go on vacation, they say I'm gonna, I'm gonna be out for a week or two, should I train and lose all my games? The answer is you don't need to do anything. For a week or two, you know, like, you will not lose your case in a week or two, right? After about two weeks, two to four weeks, it starts to decline. And, and something as late as band work, if you're on vacation can be enough to keep it going. As much as we love our big barbell movements and think that's the be all end all. There's more to it than that.

Josh Isley 23:36

Yeah, I have a bag of bands that I take with me when I travel for work. Yeah,

Philip Pape 23:41

for sure. So I'm not sure if you know that I had back surgery. But you know, I want to talk about injury here. I had a micro diskectomy last year back surgery on my lower spine and then an emergency appendectomy two months later. But I found that that inherent base of strength developed over the years made the recovery pretty fast and easy. And I could get back to training but everybody has a different situation. In terms of what interrupts their training, right? Injuries, maybe anxiety or depression, things like that. Have you dealt with setbacks like that? And then how did you deal with those?

Josh Isley 24:16

Yeah, I haven't had any major surgeries like that, in a long time, had a knee surgery back in high school. Of course, I was 16. So I healed quickly. Mostly, it's been nagging things, right, nagging muscle poles, things like that, that I've worked through. I do have some baseline anxiety issues, and my whole family has really bad anxiety. I'm not medicated, I'm able to manage it pretty well. But exercise is a big part of it. I do find myself especially this time of year when it started to get darker. We're about to change from daylight savings to standard time here in Wisconsin, where I'm at, it's going to start getting dark at 430. So I've traditionally found that that's a problem. Okay, and for me, the way I work through it is just cognitively right now. Um, there's things like CBT, cognitive behavioral therapy, issues that you can read about and just talk through it. And I know that when it starts happening, I need to exercise because it makes me feel better. Even if I don't want to do it. I've built that discipline. And as part of what I do, then it's just like, just like going to work on Monday. Nobody wants to go, but it's what we do. So we do it, and I don't want to go to the gym because I'm feeling sad, or I'm anxious about work or whatever other thing, well, too bad. That's what I do. So I go, and it makes me feel better, and it pulls me out of it. So, to me, it's just about building the discipline in making it rather than trying to force it into something. It's not I make it fit my life. Right. So

Philip Pape 25:43

yeah, and that's amazing that it helps with the the depression or the anxiety. Is that physiological or is it the fact that you're doing something you enjoy doing? Or is it a little both?

Josh Isley 25:53

That's for somebody a lot smarter, okay. Just know, I just know it works. I mean, there's there's studies Josh, yeah, I'm sure there are, I'm sure there are studies out there, I don't know them and couldn't, couldn't cite them. But it's amazing. And the other thing, too, is just being outside, right? If I live out here on 40 acres, and I have a little bit of land, right Bo hunts do so I'll just go out and sit in my stand. And just being outside in nature and getting fresh air during the time of year when it's hard to get outside and get sunlight also really helps me one of the one of the major indicators of depression is the lack of desire to do the things that we normally would love to do. And so the way that I work through that is well, even though I don't feel like I want to do it, I know that's what I want to do. So I just, I'm gonna force myself to go, and I'm gonna go sit out there, and I'm gonna do it and baby steps, things like, Well, I don't really want to go for a walk. But I'm just going to put on my shoes. And if you put on your shoes, and you tie them and you lace them up, you're probably going to go for the walk. Right? So it's it's don't eat the elephant in one bite, right? Just start with, Okay, put your shoes on. Even if you don't go walk around the house with your shoes on, maybe you vacuum or do something. And then the next day, put your shoes on and go to get the newspaper and work your way into it. But don't give up. I mean, it's a digital society. And sometimes we think in in black and white and ones and zeros. And it doesn't have to be that way. If you start feeling for myself when I start feeling that way, and I don't want to go or maybe I haven't gone in two weeks like well, haven't gone in two weeks, it's all over. I'm just going to let myself go. Doesn't have to be that way. Right? You can say well, let myself go for two weeks or three weeks or a month or six months, whatever it is. Today's a new day and you can start over you can you can fix your nutrition, you can put on your shoes, you can go to the gym, even if you just go to the gym and sit on the bench. Just go there, get in the space, sit on the bench, maybe walk around and look. It starts that building up a practice.

Philip Pape 27:47

Do your inspiring I'm glad we have you on here. I hope everybody is listening to like I don't know if they're driving to the gym right now or that home or whatever it just take that step. Today's always a new day. Who cares what happened yesterday? I mean, same thing with nutrition. It's like, yeah, you binge eat yesterday, or you you know ate way more than you intended to, you're not trying to make it up or screw up with your plan today. Just start the new day and do it again. You know, perfect device that that's so good. Hey, this is Philip pape, letting you know that applications are now open for one on one coaching. If you're a busy working professional, who has tried dieting and exercising for years, with little in the way of results, and you want to lose fat, get lean or feel confident in your body without excessive dieting, cardio or restrictions. Just go to wits & weights.com/coaching to apply.

Josh Isley 28:41

I fight that battle all the time. I mean, I'm fighting it right now when I got back from my trip, I have not been eating well. I went to the grocery store, I've just had enough and I went to the grocery store and and bought healthy food and I made a good meal today and you start over. Don't just keep keep after it just don't give up.

Philip Pape 28:57

Yep, throw away the What the hell mentality and you know, take the step forward.

Josh Isley 29:02

It's a it's a, it's a long view, right? It's an infinite game, we're trying to stay healthy as long as we can. So while we have short term goals, or I have short term goals in between, it's also ultimately I want to be healthy into my 80s and, and so I can't get there if every time I have an ice cream cone or I drink too many beers I don't like just throw it away and it's all gone. Exactly, which is it's easy mentality to slip into. It's taken me a lot of years to come to that realization but I think that that that's what works for me and it has been working Give me Give yourself some grace, right? I mean, we're not perfect.

Philip Pape 29:38

For sure. Some grace, some self love. And you know it might be relying on the systems we've been talking about and might be taking the step each day it might be your support structure, somebody in your life that can support you. Lots of ways to get there but get there. Really good message.

Josh Isley 29:55

Yeah, that's a really I don't mean to go on a tangent but that's a really good point you just brought up and it made me think of something If you don't mind me just sharing your story, please. I think a lot of people don't see food and nutrition and exercise the same way they see some other other things. And some of my friends and family didn't understand the struggles that I had with food and what it meant. Because if you look at me, even when I'm what I consider heavy, I don't look like I'm obese, right? So like, you would think of a normal fat guy or whatever. And so they're like, Oh, you're fine, you can have this dessert, or you can have that. And my response was, like, you don't understand this is something that's important to me. And it's not that I can't have it, I'm saying that I don't want it. And I'm trying to do something different. And what I need from you is that support and then understanding, right, you can do whatever you'd like, and put whatever you want in your body. But I'm asking you to respect my decision. And if I say I don't want it, say, Okay, no problem, is there something else we can get you? Or how can we support you? Right? As my friend and my family, you would do that for an alcoholic or somebody struggling with drugs or depression or having trouble with a relationship, right? You wouldn't say, oh, it's, it's fine. Just go date someone else, you'd say, How can I support you going through this, and it's the same thing, but I don't think that a lot of people see nutrition and exercise the same way. And I feel like it's the same.

Philip Pape 31:12

I agree with you as well. And that's courageous to ask somebody to make to support you and be explicit about your, your wants and needs. Because of course, I'm sure a lot of people feel they maybe can't do that or difficult thing to do. Yeah, it's a good message, just thank you for sharing that. So let's, let's get a little more a little less serious, maybe for a second and go back and talk about the training again, and you're hunting and I'm not a hunter, it sounds like a lot of fun. My perception of of what you're doing with the climbing through the mountains and punting the same time, it's like a composite sport, right involves both strength and endurance. And we already talked about the keeping your weight down, but staying strong, which are kind of contradictory, in some cases, depending on how your training is structured. So how do you manage that dichotomy? You know, the strength versus endurance?

Josh Isley 32:05

Yeah, I think it's like I said earlier, I tried to split it down the middle and train, train heavy, so I wasn't worried about like high reps or low reps, I tried to do different things. And so I would, I would run through a program for eight or 12 weeks, and I would do five reps or six reps. And then I'd go to a 12, or 15, or 20 rep program, just to keep keep scrolling, I don't think it matters so much what you do, as long as you're doing something to keep your muscles building and keep keep your your central nervous system, kind of surprised. So I've got a couple of programs that I bought, that I thought were good. I tried to do full body workouts, excuse me, very little of what I need is preacher curls or leg extensions, or things that are very isolating to single muscle groups. I'm usually, like I said, up down, climbing, kneeling, laying in uncomfortable positions for a long period of time, right. So I'm trying to move my whole body. And then different trying to find different ways to train for climbing. So bicycle uphill, heavy pack, hiking up hills, stairclimber spent a lot of time on a stairclimber. So I just split it down the middle and tried to do things that made sense, I would put on my pack and go out in public land and just go for a long hike, try to if you want to shoot free throws, you practice shooting free throws, I wanted to hike. So I practice hiking with a heavy heavy pack on. So that's strength and endurance both.

Philip Pape 33:37

Okay, and there's some I mean, there's some concepts in there that are rock solid, that you know, people need to understand one being specificity, which we alluded to before, and you just said it there. If you want to get good at something, do that thing. So if you want to get good at squats, do the squats. And then the other is the periodization. Right? We do it, we do it nutrition and we do it with training. You talked about different rep schemes and changing it up. And it's not that we're trying to confuse the muscles or make it variant for for its own sake, even though it could be fun. It's you're trying to be well rounded, right? You're trying to hit everything support everything you don't want to overtrain a lot of good reasons for that.

Josh Isley 34:14

Yeah, and for me, as I pushed in the lower rep ranges and started getting heavier and heavier, I worried about my my hernia a little bit. I worried about injury a little bit. So when I started getting up into i think i one rep max like 400 pound deadlift. And I'm like, Well, I don't need to pick up 400 pounds. So I'm going to start doing higher reps and lower weights, there's less chance of me getting injured. It's something I haven't done for a while. It's something different. So I'm transitioning into that for the eight weeks before my trip.

Philip Pape 34:45

Yeah, and that's a priority for you, you know somebody who's gonna go to a powerlifting meet they've got to get their one RM deadlift up, but that's not a priority for you so it makes perfect sense. Now, you, you mentioned you dialed in your training for the mountain goat hunt earlier this year. In British Columbia, I'm telling my my wife and kids about that, I think it's so cool mountain goat. It's just a unique thing. And it sounds, it sounds really challenging. It sounds fun because I just from what I've seen from mountain goats on any nature's show, you know, I know they could like scale the size of cliffs and whatnot. So tell us about preparing for that event and how balancing that with longevity and everything we talked about how you did that, and for these events in general, and for that event, specifically,

Josh Isley 35:26

yeah, so I focused a lot on climbing. And what I found is that coming down, sometimes it's harder than going up. And it's hard to train, it's hard to train that going going down in part. So for this hot I was in the Canadian Rockies, and I was carrying maybe 35 pounds on my back most days, right water, some foods, some clothes, we weren't carrying camping, so it was just hiking up every day. But it was 4000 feet of elevation gain up every day, from where we stopped climbing up through avalanche shoots and on trails and up creeks to get up to where the goats Live, which is way up above Timberline up in the rocks, like you were saying. And so I had focused a lot on training for the climb because I had such a hard time climbing previously. But what I'm finding is that I need to find a better way to train for the descent. Okay, right. And that concentric part with the heavy load and slippery and uneven terrain that really pounded my joints and my quads pretty hard. And my hips. So that's something I'm still searching for, was thinking about how to create a treadmill that ran backwards and I could point downhill and go downhill with.

Philip Pape 36:32

Yeah, yeah. Right. Because you think of like your shins and your knees and the things that kind of get pounded even when you're just going for a hike and you're coming down the mountain from a different movement pattern that is interesting, right? Do they have other specialized movements that are loaded that

Josh Isley 36:47

that mean I do, I do step ups and then I step off. So I'll put several benches or PIO boxes together in a row and I'll step up, step down and step up, step down and go across them. But I can't get the same as like putting a treadmill or stairclimber up and going for an hour, an hour and a half right. When I came down with my goat I shot a really nice seven year old billy goat this year, he probably weighed 250 pounds. So the guy was with and I both carried out packs full of meat and hide in the head and horns. And I think my pack was 75 pounds when I got out and that's with all my water gone, I'd finished my water. So I had four litres of water. So it was at eight, nine pounds. So water, so I was probably at five pound pack coming down, which isn't super heavy, but it was steep going up. At the top, it was about 40 degrees, it was hand over hand over foot climbing and then coming down that gravity just keeps pulling, never stops. So

Philip Pape 37:48

that's impressive, man. I mean, it's

Josh Isley 37:49

four and a half hours, it was a four and a half hour hike down the mountain with the goat. I think it took us about five to climb up there.

Philip Pape 37:58

And that's you did that for a while. And that's what the go and then you said each day you would also go up whether you had whether you had a kill or not. Obviously, you're going up and down multiple days. Yeah. So now and then you have another hunt coming up in New Zealand. And you mentioned kind of moving into recovery mode. And now you've you take lessons from each of these hunts, I'm sure to improve your training each time. But you're also getting older, right? Everything's getting more beat up. So what does that look like in preparation for the spring hunt?

Josh Isley 38:25

Yeah, so my plan this winter is to put on some muscle and gain gain a little bit of weight and just get my get my engine kind of revved up to build some strength so that I can cut, I'm gonna cut back again, I like cutting into the event so that like the week before I can start eating more. Maybe that's not for everybody. But that seems to work well for me. So my plan this winter is to is to build and try to build, build some more muscle. I'm already up to 210 pounds. So I put that weight back on pretty fast. I'd like to put on, you know, five or six pounds of muscle if I can. And I'm sure that'll come with it plenty of body fat. And then yeah, I'm going to try to figure out a way to train the the descent a little better. And keep after my climbing, I really felt good to be able to climb, I carried a lot more weight and I was able to just go up, up up up, but I didn't get tired. And so that was the first time I've had that. And that felt good. So probably do a lot of the same things I've been doing, try to find in a way find a way to add in some some descent training, even if that's just finding a hill out here that I can walk up and walk down over and over again.

Philip Pape 39:36

Yeah, you go on the bleachers, rocky style, you know, up and down. And for people listening, you know what you just said? The how you felt it was easier after you had done that training to go up this next time. And for anybody listening, you know, you don't have to be a mountain goat climber to get that same benefit from training. I mean, I've had clients who are in their 60s never trained before, and they say hey, I went to a football game and I actually wasn't out of breath, you know, going up the bleachers. And it's all relative to you. And I think that's the value of of what we do. So you met you mentioned nutrition a little, I want to get into that, because that is also my space here. I know you had, you said you had a bad relationship with food and struggle with the urge to binge, what strategies have you developed? Because now you're obviously dialing in and you're cutting, you're bulking, you're doing what you need to time with your training. And you have some what seems like good control over that or better control? How have you gotten there?

Josh Isley 40:31

It depends on the day. To me, it's really all mental in my, to me, it's all mental, right? If I get a craving, I mean, I've got some strategies, but I cave, often, right, I just, I just do, I was raised on bar food and eating ice cream every night before bed, right? Just like most of us in sugar, cereal and everything else, right. And so I've got a couple of tricks, right? I tried to keep a lot of healthy choices around. If I if my refrigerator is empty, I'm going to go down the street to the bar and get a burger, right. It's just it's, it's easy. And so if I can make it convenient. For me to eat healthy, I do a better job. If I have food, if I meal prep, if I spend a couple hours on Sunday, or whatever making meals or I put a roast in and I have a roast and I have the sweet potatoes already cooked, right? It's easy to grab them and throw them in the microwave and make a good choice. So I had to come to terms with the fact that I'm lazy and I'm going to make a lazy choice. Sometimes I need to have things available. They're easy for me.

Philip Pape 41:33

speaking my language, just your speaking. I remember calling people years ago, they're like why? Why do you strength train, I'm like, I'm lazy. This is the laziest most effective way to train that I've ever found, you know, I get to go three days a week and take a bunch of rest time between sets. You're over there on the cardio, I'm lazy. It's kind of a, you know, it's a self deprecating kind of thing. But there's some truth to that. And the common theme of what you just said, and people need to hear this is mindset and planning. And they're actually two halves of the same thing. Because the reason you plan and think ahead and meal prep and so on, is to take out the mind later on right to take out the decision making an emotion as much as you can. I mean, if you go out to dinner, and there's a buffet, and there's some amazing food that you just can't help, you know, it's going to be tougher, right? But the planning is the key. So yeah, it's great. I

Josh Isley 42:27

think understanding understanding your your brain or your body or whatever is controlling your desire, right. So I know people who can go out to dinner and they're like, Well, I want dessert. And so excuse me, they can have like one piece of pie, or they can have, you know, a handful of chocolate chips and they're fine. If I eat a handful of chocolate chips, I'm going to eat 6000 calories. There's just no two ways about it. So when I'm training, I have to get rid of all that stuff. I can't go, you can't do it. And that's just what I found about me. I'm, I'm a I'm an all or nothing kind of guy. Right. And so that's just what I've had to figure out. And so that's where I struggle with the binging right, because once I let go, I might eat 10 or 12,000 calories in a day. If I start in the morning with pancakes and syrup. It's I have a hard time rein that in. So I really have to watch it. And I tried to make other choices like I found that if I take yogurt, and I get a good 2% Greek yogurt, and I put frozen berries in it, and maybe a little bit of honey, I can I can use that as a substitute. And then I didn't eat the ice cream. And I don't eat the whole thing, right. And so I made up kind of a route Yeah, substitute for what I would normally want. It's just got the cold, and I've got the little bit of sweet. And it also helps if I can get off of sugar for two or three weeks, then berries and oranges and other things taste sweet again. Yes. And so I can use that. Right. And I really struggled with that transition once I've had Ben and Jerry's for a couple of nights in a row. And then I go and have yogurt and berries. Well, this tastes like garbage, right? But it's because my receptors or whatever it is. And your brain is like Well, that's not sugar. So it just takes a little bit of time and then I get back into it.

Philip Pape 44:08

That is so true. desensitizing yourself is actually a really good strategy. I mean, we talk about that with clients all the time of substituting because if you just try to cut things out, let's be honest, you try to cut things out, you're gonna be tempted, right? And I like how you control your environment by cutting them out of your house. That doesn't mean hey, if you really, really really want ice cream, okay, we're gonna go drive to the high quality ice cream stand with the mom and pop flavors you can't get anywhere else. We're going to enjoy the experience. We're gonna have our ice cream, maybe, I mean, maybe you the type you do that and then you're gonna go buy 10 gallons of ice cream. I don't know. Everybody's different. But you got so many so many so many golden statements and what you said that people can take and not everything. Not every technique has to be used by everybody. But you know, three or four of the things you mentioned are going to be are going to be key controlling your environment. You know, substitute Green, I think, did that really start back in? Like, I don't know, maybe it was before paleo, but I feel like they came up with all the cookbooks where they had substitutes for every, everything that could, you know, baked good.

Josh Isley 45:13

Brownies. Exactly.

Philip Pape 45:16

Actually, even my wife when I was when we first met, I was very picky. I didn't eat any vegetables. I very few unless you count corn and potatoes as much I

Josh Isley 45:23

was in the same boat 20 years ago. And you

Philip Pape 45:27

know, she did she bought a book by Jerry Seinfeld's wife that was written for kids to for mothers to make food for their kids and sneak vegetables in to delicious thing. So she would put spinach in brownies and kidney beans in mac and cheese and got me to eat vegetables over time. So we can we can sort of fool ourselves till it becomes the norm. That's that's what we eat. Good stuff, man. What else? I guess we've covered a lot. Is there anything else you want to cover that I didn't bring up?

Josh Isley 45:57

No, I mean, I guess for people listening, like, even if you're not a hunter, right? Anything you want to do. And it can be as as big as climbing a mountain, right? I climbed Kilimanjaro. And that was a great experience, or it can be as as every day is I want to be able to, you know, walk my grandson down the aisle, and I couldn't walk before, right or I struggled with being able to stand for long periods of time. Right? I think anything that brings value to our life can be enhanced. If we are stronger. I think just moving moving our bodies, helps with our mental health, it helps with our physical health. It helps stave off injury and disease. And I'm not a doctor, but I've seen it time. And again, those are my friends and people I know who are are constantly active. Just have, I think a fuller and richer life. And then ultimately, in my view anyway, we're only here for a short period of time as well enjoy it, do what we can do enjoy it, right. And so the more we can move and feel strong and feel grounded, the better we can enjoy the time that we're here.

Philip Pape 47:10

Awesome, man, I couldn't say it better myself. I do want to I do want to reiterate what you just said, though, that we might as well enjoy it. Because I think a lot of people think of fitness and nutrition as some sort of sacrifice or difficult thing that makes your life less enjoyable. And what you just suggested is doing those things allows you to enjoy your life for longer and do the things you want to do.

Josh Isley 47:30

Yeah, and find something you do like right if you don't like to lift weights, but you love to run and I guess run right but or go outside and pick your pick your child up your grandchild up and go for a walk carrying your kit. Just go out with the dogs and didn't hold rocking, throw something right have just exercise and moving and being being out and being part of the world.

Philip Pape 47:53

Yep. All right. Well, we couldn't agree more. And this was this is an awesome conversation. Thanks for coming on Josh. One of my best guess, because you just covered everything. And it was probably a personal experience. I'm serious. I think people listening can relate. Because people struggle with this stuff all the time. And I think you had a lot of really cool things, people are gonna probably listen to this again, and try to really tease out what can help them. So this was fun. I'm grateful you took the time to come on the show and talk about your experience.

Josh Isley 48:22

Now. Thanks for so much so much for having me. I appreciate it. You're doing great work and a lot of a lot of stuff that I did pulled out of your podcast. So thanks for all your help.

Philip Pape 48:30

Absolutely. More to come. Thanks for listening to the show. Before you go, I have a quick favorite ask. If you enjoy the podcast, let me know by leaving a five star review in Apple podcasts and telling others about the show. Thanks again for joining me Philip Pape in this episode of Wits & Weights. I'll see you next time and stay strong.

Philip Pape 12/13/22 Philip Pape 12/13/22

Ep 36: Demystifying Lifting, Cardio, Nutrition, and Fat Loss

This episode is from my appearance on Karen Martel's podcast, The Other Side of Weight Loss, where we demystified as much as we could about lifting, cardio, nutrition, fat loss, and more.

This episode is from my appearance on Karen Martel's podcast, The Other Side of Weight Loss, where we demystified as much as we could about lifting, cardio, nutrition, fat loss, and more.

Topics discussed in this episode:

What is the best way to train?
What is the best cardio for weight loss?
How long should our workouts ideally be?
What does the science tell us about step counting when it comes to weight loss?
What cardio is most stressful?
How many times a week should we be lifting?
How can we take it to the next level and should we?
What is the ideal timing of days off and on from workouts?
What are compounded movements and why do we want to do them?
How often should we be adding more weight to our barbells and dumbbells?
How often should we wait between sets?
How many carbs, calories and protein should we be eating to build muscle yet lose weight?
How to calculate your protein needs.
What is the anchor macronutrient?
What are the ideal set and reps?
What are the signs that you are not lifting heavy enough?
How long does it take to see results?
Can we lose weight without calorie restricting and just lifting?
and more!

RELATED LINKS

Subscribe to The Other Side of Weight Loss podcast
Visit Karen's website at karenmartel.com
Find Karen on Instagram
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🎙️ ABOUT THE SHOW
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Transcript

Philip Pape 00:08

Karen Martel 01:05

Ladies, welcome back to the show. We've got a good one for you today. I mean, when don't I have a good one for you like, let's be honest. But today's something that I haven't gotten into on this podcast and you've been listening to me for the last year and a half talking about my my journey with losing weight in men of perimenopause and how I did that. And one of the biggest things that I did that impacted my finally my ability to get off some pounds was I started to take my exercise more seriously than I have ever taken it. Thanks to my lovely, gorgeous Pam Sherman, she really helped me get back into working out and I've talked about this on several podcasts and how instrumental it was to have that accountability with her. And really started to just get into the lifestyle of exercising on a on a regular and taking the lifting weights far more seriously. So of course, because of that I've been trying to just dive deeper into muscle building. And I think that that's something that's important to do to get excited about it. Rather than just like okay, I guess I should go to the gym because I have to because Karen said on her podcast, this is helpful for us menopausal women. You know, like it's super important to go. Okay, let's really dig into this. How do we build muscle? What is how much protein do I need to build muscle? How often should I be working out? How often should I be lifting? You know, increasing my weights, you know, is 20 minutes not enough is an hour too long. So ladies, this is what we're getting into today, we're gonna get into the nitty gritty of weightlifting and exercise. And I'm super happy that I found my guest today. Well, he kind of found Yeah, he found me actually. And he approached me and he wanted to do some ads on my podcast. And I was like, yes, because his stuff super aligned with mine. I knew that my audience would all could very easily be his audience as well. So we connected and then he asked me to be on his podcast and I was like, you've got to come on my podcast. So let me introduce you to my new friend, Philip Pape. He's a certified nutrition coach, mindset specialist, strength training expert and host of the Wits & Weights podcast. Through his personal journey of weight loss and strength Philip learned about evidence based nutrition, resistance training and body composition. He started sharing what he learned through the Wits & Weights podcast and eventually nutrition coaching. Philips approach emphasizes sustainability, consistency and mindset. Each person's path is unique and his mission is to help you balance optimal health with the zest for life without excessive dieting, cardio or food restrictions. Yay. Philip helps working professionals with busy lives, burn fat, get lean, feel energized and project confidence in their career and relationships as founder and head nutrition coach of Wits & Weights nutrition and health coaching. You can find Phil at wits & weights.com. So welcome Phil up.

Philip Pape 04:41

Thank you Karen so much. I'm really excited to be on the show and have this conversation with you. Yes.

Karen Martel 04:49

And okay, so what I love number one about you, Philip is you're not one of these people that came. This came naturally to Do you see a lot of that, you know, when you go on YouTube and you're looking for exercise programs or you're online trying to find an exercise program, and majority of it, you're seeing these women and men that are freaking shredded. And they're just like, and they're, you know, 1% of the population. It was like they came out of the womb lifting weights shredded, because it's just genetically that's their thing. They can very easily have these physiques. You were not like that.

Philip Pape 05:33

That's why I'm trying to get them. But yes, you.

Karen Martel 05:39

So tell us your story of how you got into this.

Philip Pape 05:44

Yeah, I guess it's more of the the average Joe type of story, which I think is relatable to a lot of people. As I was growing up, I was an active kid growing up in South Florida, we played outside a lot, but I was never in sports. And I was never into fitness. And frankly, my diet was never very good. And as I grew up, I started to gain weight, went to college and gain the sophomore 30 You know, the freshman 15 For me as a sophomore, 30. And, you know, I always chalk things up to genetics, like you said, I wasn't genetically blessed in any way overweight, most of my family struggled with weight. We had our disease, we had diabetes in the family. And I think most people walk around thinking, Okay, this is my lot in life, there's really a small envelope that I can actually improve within that I'm not going to be like you said these fitness influencers with a six pack that are totally jacked. And I spent probably two decades through my 20s and 30s, trying to figure it out, not really succeeding, but learning everything that didn't work, which is valuable. And I cycled through all the diets. I did Atkins back in the day I did. I went through paleo, my paleo phase, keto, a whole bunch of weird diets that I can't even remember that I did leading up to my wedding just told me Yeah, you know what I'm saying? And every time I did, I would look in the mirror and say, Okay, I lost weight. But what is that doing? For me, I'm just skinnier, more guns pasty version of myself, and I don't feel good. I don't look good. I don't like take my shirt off at the pool. Like, and these are important things for people, you know, in your 20s, just the vanity side of it, we can't under under estimate in our in terms of our body image. And let alone as we get older into our 30s and realize the other health effects that these things have, you know, things like blood pressure, and so on. So I, I went through these all these phases of what's the next big thing? What's the next quick fix that's going to do it? In parallel, I was not working out very much through my 20s. I tried machines at the gym, I tried cardio, you know, my idea of fitness, like most people was, move as much as you can and eat as little as you can. Right? That's the standard formula. And throughout my 30s I actually did do CrossFit. And I have to say that CrossFit turned me on to barbells, that, you know, I had, I had no comfort level whatsoever before then in the gym, near dumbbells or barbells, whatsoever. So it turned me on to, to barbells, to Olympic weightlifting, and to kind of working out hard, you know, getting that conditioning and see what it feels like to push yourself. So for all of its faults, it did that. But I still felt like I was stalling for years, I still felt like the the physique and the body composition wasn't there. If I lost or gained weight, it was primarily due to diet. But I'd have much muscle. And then when I turned 39, so this was just a few years ago, I vowed to get in the best shape of my life. By the time I was 40. You know, I said I'm gonna give myself a year. So start to figure it all out. And I talked to my coach, I had a coach at the time at the same gym. He's a strength and conditioning coach. They said, We got we've got to stop all the bootcamp stuff, and you got to focus on strength. I'm like, Yeah, but doesn't that mean I'm only working out three days a week and, you know, it doesn't look like as far as volume, how could I possibly nope, that's what you got to do. That's gonna work. Let's go figure it out. So he programmed some, some basic compound moves from movements for me, we'll get into that, you know, compound movements, with barbells in the gym to get stronger. So I started to do that. Not the high rep, high volume stuff, but low rep, very heavy barbell based training, maximum effort, you know what it feels like to workout hard, and then adding weight over time to get stronger. And we can get into some of those details in a bit. CrossFit wasn't doing that for me because they don't focus on progression over time. That then I realized the next revelation would have been nutrition. So up till now I realized I could get stronger, and then I needed to feed the muscles to get stronger. But I probably went a little bit overboard. I probably gained quite a bit of weight while doing that.

Karen Martel 09:55

You're like, I'm gonna start walking. That's what it was. Yeah.

Philip Pape 09:59

Got a book, I was drinking whole milk. Okay, I was eating whatever right the seafood diet as they say. And I probably gained 30 pounds in like six months. And you know if I'm around 180, so that's a decent amount of weight again. And but but I but actually I was feeling better I was feeling stronger I was I was lighter on my feet, you know, I was being able to I was able to play with my kids in a way that didn't tire me. So I knew there were some benefits here even though I was getting a little bit fluffy. And so this was around 2020, the pandemic lockdowns occurred. And I had time now to kind of focus on learning and studying and reading listening to podcasts like yours. And listening to the evidence based experts talk about nutrition strength training, flexible dieting protein, you know, the the right rep ranges, all of these things, and I just dove in headfirst and learned as much as I could, and finally started to get it and figure out what the things I was missing. Some of the things we can get into today. And come late 2021, I made significant progress is in the best shape of my life as I get, I finally had decent body composition finally had some muscle. And I'm like, I want to tell people about this. I like to talk a lot. So how did I do that? I'm not a huge fan of writing a lot. So forget the blog. Let's go with the podcast. And that's how I started the Wits & Weights podcast in late 2021. And then fortuitously, one of my listeners who was also a co worker of mine, she was a powerlifter. And she came on my show, she was one of my earliest interviews. And afterwards, she said, You know, I learned so much in a week of binging your show, compared to what I had learned in years of lifting and nutrition. And I think you make a good coach. So that kind of gave me the bug to pursue nutrition coaching, became certified. And now I help people doing that as well and come on to podcasts like yours. And I think that's why I'm here today.

Karen Martel 12:00

Wow, oh my gosh, I see so many parallels between you and I like my story is so similar, but it's like the female version, trying you know, all the different diets and, and then thinking that CrossFit, it wasn't called CrossFit was identical to CrossFit, though, thinking that that was the answer that you know, what if I, if I really pushed it and did these, like super hardcore CrossFit like workouts, then for sure, I'm going to lose the weight, and trying paleo and Atkins and keto and vegan and all of these things, and just not coming up with results. And I feel like I did this dance for, oh my gosh, probably 15 years before I finally got went, Oh, this is not working. This is not what my body needs. And I had to go on a completely different path at that point than you did. Because that's what my body needed. But now come the last few years, I've gotten back into it and been like, Okay, how do I do this now for real? Like, and how do I sustain it? So I think, you know, I think you need to share with us what you feel was kind of, you know, you're a mindset specialist. So in this last two years, what really shifted in the mind to get you to do this, like isn't, stay with it? And, you know, did you just because you started seeing results, or just the education or you figured out how to do it, right? Like, what really got you to go this is it and I'm going to stick with it.

Philip Pape 13:38

Yeah, that's, that's always a great question. Because in hindsight, you can see, you can find key moments that might have caused the breakthrough. And in reality, in the moment, it was a combination of education, awareness and hard work. And when I say hard work, I don't mean to turn people off to the idea that, Oh, this is going to be a struggle. I actually mean that in the positive way in that once we start seeing those results from the process, and you know, process works, it literally is a matter of okay, repeating the process over and over again, and then refining it from there. So things like you mentioned cardio. For years, the mode of exercise, for me was running, lots of cardio, biking, running, rowing, and even the cardio conditioning. And I always thought, Okay, we need to burn calories. And then I read a book by Henry Ponsor, it was I think it's called Burn came out a few years back, which was about a different way to look at metabolism, not in the Okay, the more you move, the more you burn, but our bodies adapt, and there's not a lot you can do about that from an exercise perspective. But if you have more muscle mass, you can burn more calories. And that was just one of those little revelations that came along. I said, huh? So you're saying to people the same size in the same way, the person that has greater fat free mass simply burns more calories 23 hours a day when they're not extra? sizing. And it's those little revelations over time and starting to open your mind to, oh, I actually need twice as much protein as I've ever eaten before. That sounds crazy. Isn't that gonna hurt my kidneys? Or is it going to cause other problems? You know? No, those are myths. But until you look into it until you understand what the evidence says, You don't know that it works. So this is kind of a long winded answer. No, it's right. Yeah. But but it really is awareness and education I tried to do with my clients from day one is why do we do this? Why does it work? What does the evidence say? So that you buy in and you say, Okay, well, I can't argue with facts. Now. I just need to do it.

Karen Martel 15:39

Yeah, exactly. I used to think that if only I could become a runner, then I would be thin. I did a whole blog post on it was one of my first blog posts because I had that belief for so many years. And I would think, Okay, I'm just gonna get out there, I'm gonna start running every day would last like two days. And I'd be like, I hate it. They hate running. But I thought that that's how I could be thin. And I think women are so stuck still, in the headspace of cardio is key. Even though they've been hearing so much more than weightlifting, so important. And I think there's a blockage. Do you tell me if you think there's a blockage? Like when you're working with female clients? Do you not think that even though they're hearing so much about weight lifting weights, they still have this like subconscious belief that lifting heavy is going to make them bulky, that it's not like how is it that that's going to help them lose weight, if they're not sweating and running for an hour on a treadmill?

Philip Pape 16:41

I do get that. Although, right from our very first conversation, I think I try to let them know who I am and what I think and a lot of people that I meet clients, they come through listening to the podcast, for example, and, and they have that level of trust and knowledge. And fortunately, the knowledge is is disseminating more than in the past. Like I think the the noise of the fitness industry is starting to get some clarity with with these. But having said that, yes. If you have more clients, they love to do their Pilates and yoga and tennis and peloton and all the other things and like, okay, we can still do those. We have to dial it back. You know, let's think about how much we lift versus how much we run. And what do we care about? What do we prioritize? And let's do that. I'm not going to cut out something completely for you enjoy it. But like if you said, if you're just running because you think it's the right thing to do, but you hate running. We're not going to run anymore at all.

Karen Martel 17:33

Yeah, yeah. Fantastic. So ideally, let's start kind of getting into the nitty gritty now myths and facts. Ideally, how much cardio versus weight training should the average woman that's in her 40s and beyond, because we're most of my listeners are in that mid life phase? What do you feel is ideal. As far as that balance goes, if somebody's goal is weight loss?

Philip Pape 18:02

Yes. So if your goal is, whatever your goal is, so I want to be clear whether your goal is weight loss, maintenance muscle building, you're going to want to train roughly the same amount. And it's going to be, you know, sufficient to build muscle and it's gonna be sufficient to retain muscle when you're losing weight. Because we don't just want to lose muscle and fat, we want to lose fat, right want to hold on to that muscle. So simple rule of thumb when you're a beginner, three days a week for about 45 minutes to an hour is what it's going to come out to, if you're doing some big compound lifts, compound lifts being the multi joint movements like squats, deadlifts, bench presses, and so on. And cardio should be about half that. So for lifting three hours a week, cardio should be an hour and a half maximum. Ideally, I would say in a fat loss phase, the main form of cardio is going to be walking, right and a lot of people don't realize, okay, you know, walking right? Getting at least 7500 steps a day is correlated with a significant drop in mortality, and increase in ability to lose fat, and a ton of other health benefits. And it's a lot easier than running for most people and more enjoyable. Yeah, it's easy to fit into your day like pacing around the house and parking farther from the store, going up the stairs, just going for a walk for 10 minutes after a meal. And that'll be the primary primary form. But if you want to do other more intense forms of cardio you come from the CrossFit world or something. The next best thing would be high intensity interval training, maybe two or at most three times a week for about 10 to 20 minutes. And that would be the traditional one to two ratio of all out to rest. So for example, if you're gonna do 10 minute session of sprinting, you might sprint for 30 seconds and rest for a minute to a minute and a half. And then do that six times and you're done. Once or you know maybe once or twice Sweet.

Karen Martel 20:01

So if somebody's like, Oh, but I just love running and all I love hit so much is, is it bad to do more? Like, what happens if we're doing more, we're still doing what you say, and we're gonna go, Okay, I'm going to commit to three times a week, 45 minutes of lifting. But now I want to do cardio every day, I want to go for a run for 30 minutes. Is there a detriment to that? Or what starts to happen? Does it take away from the body building in any way?

Philip Pape 20:30

The answer is yes, to an extent. So there's something called the interference effect, which, like many these things, evolve over time, it used to be this this this scary thing, like if you do any cardio at all, you know, you're gonna interfere with your gains, and you know, cardio is gonna kill you or something. But it's a little more moderated than that. If you do a lot of cardio, especially running, you're going to interfere with your lifting in a few ways. Number one is recovery. So a lot of running is you're basically marshaling resources to recover from that stress, that now cannot be devoted to recovering from the stress you put on your muscles, so that they adapt, get stronger and bigger. Another way that interferes with recovery is physically with the joint impacts from running, you know, on your knees, for example, and also the fact that when you run, there's both concentric and eccentric motion involved, just like when you do squats, you go up and down. And that causes soreness. And that also causes recovery, to, again, require resources for recovery from the running more than does for the lifting. And then the last thing that can be a problem is if you run too much, you send your body and endurance signal that's sort of in conflict with the strength building signal, meaning your body is is saying, Hey, I'm an endurance athlete, for lack of a better word, and I need to be efficient with my calories. So this down regulates your metabolism. So it actually has the opposite opposite effect of what we want. A lot of people do cardio and running to burn calories, but too much of it will actually cause your metabolism to decline.

Karen Martel 22:05

Awesome. I love that cn CF, I did not know. And on a hormonal standpoint, I will just add, running is more far more of a stressor than weightlifting is and women in midlife have a lot of issues with cortisol. Naturally, this happens where our cortisol, we typically rise when we're going through perimenopause. So if when we think about it from that stress bucket view, and we're adding, you know, we've got all the all these stressors happening in our life, and then we're adding on top of that excessive amounts of cardio, then it's going to overfill that bucket, and then that stress becomes too much for the body. And when that happens, you can actually develop sarcopenia, so you can start eating away at those muscles that you're trying to build. Yeah. Okay, so here's the million dollar question. When I was on this journey I didn't, I started at the three times a week. So I think that that, you know, for anyone that's listening, that hasn't started out doing any weightlifting, I think that is super ideal. And it's such a great, easy place to start that can be easily committed to like, I think most people can say, Okay, three times a week is doable. I really wanted to take it up a notch. And so I wanted to do five days a week, four to five days a week of lifting. What I have noticed is I can I more so four than five. But I, when I started, I was like, I want to do it five days a week because I want to put even more muscle on is that a problem.

Philip Pape 23:44

So building strength and size requires a certain amount of intensity, which means weight on the bar and a certain amount of volume. And oddly enough, women can tend to handle a little bit more volume than men. And that's why they we sometimes have different rep schemes for women as they get stronger. But as a beginner, you have the capacity to recover very quickly. So if you, if you go three days a week, you can put in the most effort and intensity in that workout and get the most adaptation over the next 48 hours. Then if you were to go four or five days a week and have less of that recovery. So you're actually and for some people, especially as you get older, I mean 60s 70s, two days a week might be ideal, you know, every every third day or something like that. So it's always that we want to do so much we want so much volume, we think more is better. Yes. As you get stronger, and as you get into that intermediate phase, which is usually around six months of really solid intelligent lifting, then you're going to need more more days a week simply because you need long rest periods. And you're working with very high weights and it's just going to take too long in the gym otherwise, so you need to spread it out. Also you need more volume at that level, because you're not increasing the weight every session, you might be increasing it every week or two instead. Oh, so

Karen Martel 25:09

if so, kind of six months or more in, then you can do more days with more intensity, longer between sets.

Philip Pape 25:20

But more rest periods. Yeah, we can get into that as well. All those details. Yep.

Karen Martel 25:24

Okay, awesome. So I'm not doing anything wrong. Because I didn't start that till I was well into it.

Philip Pape 25:31

No, and I and I've done personally, I've done 345 And six day splits. But when I first started, the three days was where you could just put in the most effort. I mean, if you're going five days, what are you doing on those days? So for example, if you're going to squat, are you squatting every day? Are you splitting it up? There, there's a case to be made for splitting it. And then just having much shorter sessions, if it's a time thing, right? But systemically like squats and deadlifts, they're systemically fatiguing. So you'd rather have that rest in between to get the most adaptation?

Karen Martel 26:05

Right, yeah, because that's what I did. I went to less body parts per session. And I did do like two on one off three on one off, like I did split it up, because and I felt like that was needed. And I can really listen to my body now. And I'll be like, Oh, I really feel like I can't work out today, I need to rest I'll be super sore from that workout that I did. So. Okay, I love this. I get really excited. So just rewind a little bit and just share a little bit about what the compounded movements are. Why is it called compounded? Because I'm trying to like, you know, for the people that really have no clue because that's a big part of it to fill up is that women are super afraid. Because they're like, What is this jargon? You know, like, what's compounded exercise? What do they mean? Like, you know, my little nephew the other day, he's 16. And he's been lifting weights, and he's super into it. And I said, Where were you at the gym today? And he was like, Oh, I was there. You know, I, you know, it was it was there an hour later than you? And I was like, Oh, well, I could have used you today because I got, you know, I needed help with my I said, I went up in my shoulder press and I needed help. And he's like, Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. You had a new PR did? Yeah. I was like PR was PR. He's like, personal record. My 16 year old obviously. It's true. I'm like, yeah, the new PR.

Philip Pape 27:39

lingo. Okay. So, yeah, so compound is just because we're using multiple joints. So compound meaning multiple. That's what it means. Okay, so it's a multi jointed movement. So when you think of what you could do in the gym, you could do something like a squat, which uses multiple joints, hips, and knees and ankles, right? But if you did a barbell curl, or a dumbbell curl uses a single joint, your elbow. So you can kind of reverse engineer any move and say, Is it compound by how many joints are we using? The benefit of compound lifts is they allow you to lift the heaviest weight, using the most muscle mass, and also the biggest muscle fibers in the least amount of time. So it's kind of the dream movement, for getting the biggest bang for your buck with our time in the gym. So with beginners, a very efficient approach is going three days a week, and doing full body every single day, where you're squatting every day, deadlifting every day, and pressing every day, because you can handle that. And you don't need to be doing hip thrusts. Ladies, you don't need to be doing kickbacks. You don't need to be doing any of this isolation stuff, cable work machines, nothing because little bit of humor here, if I have a male client come in and say, hey, I want to get big and strong. Say, all right, we need to get you just strong all around. First we build that base, we're going to squat and deadlift. And a female client says, I want to get tone I want to get bigger but tighter but better legs. Okay, we got to squat and deadlift. It's the same answer, because that's how you use the most muscle mass and get significantly stronger. In a very short period. I'm talking three months, you could probably go from a 557 female waiting, I don't know 161 70 could probably go from 95 pounds on the bar to over 200 in that timeframe. You know, for sets of five, and the compound lifts are the way the way to do that. They're safe. You can use barbells and they, you know, they teach you how to work hard and work toward muscular failure. Yeah,

Karen Martel 29:48

and and it's, I think an inexpensive way to get started at home if you wanted to. Right like you could easily get some heavier dumbbells where you know You could just do squats, chest press, deadlift and shoulder press or all the compounds. That's right. Yeah, yeah. Okay, well,

Philip Pape 30:09

there are other movements that are compound movements. Technically, all the variants of those would be compound movements. And also things like a hip hinge like a Romanian deadlift, or vertical pole, like a pull up or chin up is also compound. Right? a bent over row is a compound. So there are a lot of things that are compound movements. And I would always start there before I started adding an accessory movements and isolation movements.

Karen Martel 30:34

Right? What is do the isolation movements, though, eventually have a place and can help to kind of get that more shredded look in the arms, for instance, let's say so some single ones, everybody would be, you know, tricep work, bicep work, hamstring work calves, right?

Philip Pape 30:57

Yeah, I think of it as like layers. So if you are a pyramid, you take the compound lifts will give you the big foundation at the bottom, they will make you strong overall, they'll use multiple muscle groups, every time you work them out, they'll keep things reasonably proportional to your own anatomy and your anthropometry meaning, like, if you do a squat out on the grass, you're gonna move in a certain way, if you lift a barbell, doing that same movement, you're gonna keep everything proportional, right? That's the first layer. The next layer would be things that support those movements. So it might be for example, a close grip bench press to support your triceps in the benchpress. So again, now you're starting to target the tricep a little bit more, because the movement you're doing emphasizes that but it's still using multiple muscle groups. Or another example would be like chin ups, I would tell people work chin ups before they start doing curls. Because that involve your back and your biceps. Right. And that's, that's the second layer. And then the third layer is okay, now I've got extra time. I'm an intermediate lifter, I want to improve my physique. I, you know, I have the extra day in the gym. Let's throw in pearls. So that's kind of the approach I take. Oh,

Karen Martel 32:09

I like that a little layered a stallion, we'll call it. Yeah.

Philip Pape 32:14

So you stack it stacked and get jacked.

Karen Martel 32:17

Nice. Oh, I like that. Put that as a little tagline in our for this interview? Hey, you said you know, three months, you can get results. However, I don't think many people do because they're not pushing themselves hard enough. So when it comes to how often should we be adding weight to that barbell? For instance? Like, if I can push out 10 And I'm struggling at 10? Is that a sign that I need to put more on? Like what how many reps should we be able to get to before failure in order to see results in three months and get some muscle built?

Philip Pape 33:04

Hey, this is Philip pape, letting you know that applications are now open for one on one coaching. If you're a busy working professional, who has tried dieting and exercising for years, with little in the way of results, and you want to lose fat, get lean or feel confident in your body without excessive dieting, cardio or restrictions, just go to wits & weights.com/coaching to apply. Right. So this is a this is a debated topic, because it does depend on whether you're going to use barbells dumbbells or what have you. And it would be my preference for someone who's new to use barbells. But I know that we don't have always have access to those, or a gym with barbells. Or we can't do that at our home gym. So then I would say dumbbells are the next best option. The challenge with dumbbells is going to be they get unwieldy as they get heavier, right. Like to get them into place for certain movements like a benchpress. Very much. So yeah, you risk you know, pulling your shoulder, your elbow and things like that. Whereas a barbell, you just unrack it. The other thing is it's hard to jump in weight, the amount you want with a dumbbell, because you either need, you need all the dumbbells first of all, and if you're not super strong yet, you don't want to make necessarily five pound jumps when you need to make a two and a half pound jump. Right? And so then you have to like look at getting microplate magnets or something like that. These are like little hacks, but let's just simplify it and talk about barbells. The first workout you ever do, you're going to pick a weight that you think is reasonable, whatever that is, I don't care, it might be too light for you that day. And our goal is to do a fixed set of reps and sets. So we're not working in rep ranges as a beginner. Like we're not working eight to 12 or six to eight we're saying alright, we're going to do three sets of five squats Monday, Wednesday, Friday for the indefinite future. That first day you come in, you put 95 pounds on the bar and three sets So five, yeah, that was no problem. Okay, great. So the next time you're gonna put five, maybe 10 pounds for, if I see that it's easy for you go up by 10, which is roughly 10%, cheer up to 105. No problem, then you have to 115. Okay, now it's starting to get hard. Alright, maybe we start making five pound jumps here, after maybe a month of that, now you're pushing upper one hundreds. And this is really hard, I don't think I could get all three set, no, you can get all three sets, because that's what we're doing. We're getting all three sets of five squats, like you've been doing every session. But next week, we're gonna go up by two and a half. So kind of logarithmically scales, right, you kind of go up 10% And maybe 5%, or maybe two and a half. But the goal is to never miss a rep. And you go in thinking, I'm never gonna miss a rep, it's a mindset thing, you're not going to miss a rep. And, you if you understand the reasons we fail reps, you'll do the things ahead of time to not miss a rep. Okay? So it's not really about feel, it's not about is this feeling hard, it's you are getting the three sets of five. And because you got it, you're gonna get a little stronger. Over the next 48 hours, your body's gonna adapt, and you're gonna be able to get five pounds more next time, because you got stronger. Same thing over and over repeated again and again until you start plateauing months down the line. Now, what are the three things that can cause us to fail reps? Number one, you're not taking long enough rest periods. So we talked about that earlier. A lot of people think 30 seconds is enough. I don't know what your experiences Karen, but 30 seconds to a minute. Let's just go to the next set, I just want to get this done, I would say you need at least two to three minutes. And after about a month or two of strength gains, probably three to five minutes between those compound lifts. Because you want to get all the reps, I don't want you to sweat or get sore, that's not the point. Or just to get it done. It's to get all the reps. So that's number one. Rest. Number two is recovery between workouts. So this goes back to don't do a crazy amount of cardio, eat enough food, get enough sleep, manage your stress. Now, it is pretty much a fact that you can't, most people cannot build much muscle unless you are at least at maintenance calories or in a surplus. But if you're very overweight, or if you're brand new, I definitely have seen people gain muscle even in a diet. So that that gets into the nuances of which direction do we go? If a client is coming to me and is 30 pounds overweight, is struggled with weight for years, and she just wants to feel better by getting that quick win. I'm not going to force her to start gaining weight, you know, to build muscle necessarily. On my mind, I'm like that might be the ideal thing to do. You're not going to like gaining another 10 pounds before we lose 30 pounds. Yes, that's tough. Yeah. So that mindset. So rest between sets, recovery between workouts. And then the last thing is not making jumps that are too big. So if you have all those in your mind, if you listen to your body, and you start jumping week to week, taking your session to session, taking the right rest and having the right recovery, you should be able to string that up for three to six months and get significantly stronger.

Karen Martel 38:10

Okay, so let me get this right. So when we want to, you know, let's say we need to get to five, we're doing five reps, how many times are we doing that? Three sets of five, three sets of five for a squat? It's so it's not about like, Was that too easy? It's more about making sure you're adding weight to that on a weekly basis.

Philip Pape 38:39

No on a session by session basis. Oh,

Karen Martel 38:41

out. Okay. Yes,

Philip Pape 38:43

yeah. That's progressive overload, right? Let's just throw the phrase out there in case people are familiar. That's what we mean by progressive overload, you're, it's kind of a misnomer, because you're not really overloading beyond what you can handle. You're loading just to the limit of what you can handle in that session. And then your body adapts to that because you said hey, I need to handle heavyweight body. And your body says, Okay, let's grab the protein. Let's break it into amino acids and build muscle tissue and make it a little bit stronger. And then two days later, you come back. Oh, now I can lift five more pounds.

Karen Martel 39:17

And just to be clear, so in case I talk to my nephew again, would that be po progressive overload? Is that? Is there an acronym for that? No, no. Okay. So it shouldn't be like, Hey, did you pee? Oh, today?

Philip Pape 39:33

You never know. Right?

Karen Martel 39:35

Okay, well, I just want to get this right the slang right. So it can be cool to my my young nephews. Okay, I don't do that. Oh my gosh. Okay. That's very cool. And I'm really excited about it. So each day of the week, we're going up in weights.

Philip Pape 39:55

Yeah, so if we're squatting, it's going to be every time if we're deadlift then we're probably not going to do three sets because it's so fatiguing on the body that you might do one set. And after a few weeks or maybe a month, you might alternate deadlifts with another pole like pull ups, because it's just so fatiguing you, this is where we have to balance recovery and stress.

Karen Martel 40:18

Right, and I guess when you're working with this is where you can come in to like, where it's so valuable to work with a trainer because like, I wasn't doing this on my own, you know, and to have somebody there, that's gonna say, Okay, that looks like, you know, it was really, we're really struggling. So we're going to now pair this with, you know, a chin up or whatever, you know, to watch what we're doing and to tweak it however necessary at that time. I think that that's definitely take somebody a trainer, when you're starting out to help you with that. But that's so cool. Okay, so we're going up every session. And if need be, you're waiting three to five minutes between sets, right? If it was part, yeah, ideally, yeah. Probably. Yeah. Ideally,

Philip Pape 41:07

it's as long as you need to get all the reps,

Karen Martel 41:11

right. And if you don't, let's say you're doing that squat, and you can only do three,

Philip Pape 41:20

then you just can't. And that's where it's like, we have to play the mind game and the thought experiment, say, Okay, we, our goal is never to miss reps. We don't go in and getting three. So what do we need to do ahead of time to get to be successful next time in the gym? And it might be, well, we only go up by two and a half pounds this time, or might be, hey, we need to, we need to get more sleep. Because we're only getting six and a half hours, we need to get seven or seven and a half. Little things like that before we start saying I'm just not getting stronger and plateauing. Right? Yeah. And you see the same thing when it comes to dieting and other things like we look at biofeedback. And we try to bounce get the whole system in balance before we make drastic moves and say, okay, you've got a medical condition, or you've got something else going on. I do want to address Karen, the other thing is, so a lot of my clients don't necessarily follow and don't necessarily use barbells, because they don't have access to them. And they don't necessarily have to do sets of five, right? So you are saying you don't do that you do probably rep ranges, maybe you work eight to 10 reps, or dumbbell movement. So for dumbbells that actually makes more sense, because you don't want to go extremely heavy with dumbbells just Yeah, I can. We'll do. Yeah. So that's okay. And as long as the the goal is to get close to muscular failure, right, so if you're doing a compound movement, that's usually two to three reps shy of failure. A beginner doesn't really know where that is, though, let's be honest, they really don't know, because the beginner doesn't know their maximum strength, they can't express that yet, they don't have the training, they don't have the experience, they don't have the form. So in that case, if your rep ranges eight to 12, I would say your first set should definitely be no more than 12. Right. And if if you get to 12, you're like I can keep going keep going. But know that that was too late, right? So your first set should be no more than 12. And your last set should be no less than eight, right. And if every set is around 11 or 12, then you're going to increase the weight next week, you're going to increase or the next time, you're going to keep doing it just like we do with the barbells until one of those sets can't get to eight. So one of those sets comes out at seven. And that's absolutely the last one you can do. That is where you do a reset. That is where you say I'm now going to go back down to a weight. That's a little bit more for 12 than I did before.

Karen Martel 43:49

Just because we're limited with dumbbells.

Philip Pape 43:53

Well, this is more of the double. This is called double progression where if we're working in a rep range, I don't want you to try to hit 10. Exactly, I'd rather you push with the dumbbells. So it's going to be in a range. That's why we have the range. But my point is if you get you're going to increase the weight each session, if you then have a session where one of those sets is seven and you can't get eight, then you hit your limit. And the next week you're going to reduce the weight on the dumbbells, but it's going to be higher than the last time you got 12 You know what I mean? So if you started Yes. 1520 2530 And now you hit your limit. And last time you did 15 pounds for 12 will now go for 20 for 12. Right? For 12. Yeah microplates. Yeah,

Karen Martel 44:42

great. Those are little nuances. That's awesome. I love that. Yeah, I definitely I was doing everything from home and I got I have a barbell I got a rack that dumbbells, but I did 100% get to a point where I was became limited with what I was used. Same as, especially with the dumbbells, I as a woman I did, I used to do massage therapy. So I don't have strong hands, just to pick up the dumbbell that I needed to do a chest press with became, I couldn't do it. And same with even just, you know, bent over rows, I was like, I can't this is this is too little too late for me. And so I had to go to the gym, where I could get access to people helping me and supporting me and being able to do the barbell with help. And instead of doing dumbbells, and so I did have to go to the gym eventually, if I wanted to continue building the muscle, and it definitely helped me to jump up. And so I think those that are listening, I think, you know, you can get limited from home. I think yeah,

Philip Pape 45:50

it's about maximizing versus get it's progress is progress. So I agree doing any form of strength training is going to get you stronger and build muscle, but it just may take a lot longer than you'd like, unless you're pushing it with the right tools. And in this case, that would be barbells, for example, or it could be certain cable machines and things like that, where you can load them heavy, but barbells are the safest way to go.

Karen Martel 46:14

Yeah, I feel like with this was like, I feel like I just got like a secret for everybody. Because I just just that just how to do this, I think this is so awesome. Because most women that you speak to will tell you that they're doing what I was doing, which is 12 reps, you know, three sets of 12. And you know, they're making sure that they get so that it's a little bit tough, but they're never going beyond that, you know, 10 pound 15 pound dumbbell, it's just like we have this block or something I think a lot of us do. And it's you get into routine, really. And so knowing that you should should be putting an emphasis on putting weight on maybe every session, like you said, there's nuances to that. But that this weight is always increasing, I think that is so key, because most people don't get results within three months. And they and then they give up because they're like, I'm not seeing any difference. I'm not losing weight I'm done. You know, this is and they can't stick to it. So knowing that, oh, this is a different way to make sure that we are progressively building muscle. And that we could see results in as little as three months. And I know you're not saying like we're going to be bikini models in three months or anything. But just knowing that as a goal to keep in mind, like, because when you get started working out, it can be really hard to stick with it and build up this new habit. So knowing like, okay, but you know, in three months, I could start seeing results. I feel like that's really encouraging for the people that are just starting out.

Philip Pape 47:54

Yeah, totally agree. Yes. Yeah, I agree. I mean, I did CrossFit for eight years. And if anybody listening you know about CrossFit, there's a lot of barbell work, right? There's an Olympic lifts, and there's deadlifts and all that, but doesn't use this progressive overload. So you kind of tap out pretty quickly, you get little stronger, just naturally, but you don't your weight kind of plateaus for years. And then it wasn't until I said, Okay, I need to do it this other way that I realized within months, you know, I took my squat from like, what was it 215 to 315. In a few months. It's a huge jump for a male to do that. Of course, I haven't taken it much more than that since then, because you start to plateau, but I'm happy where I got.

Karen Martel 48:36

Okay, so the next million dollar question, protein, how much protein does do we need to be doing this style of muscle growth, where we're really putting an emphasis on putting more weight on and we're not wanting to balk, but we need to feed the muscle. And if we're in this extreme caloric deficit, you just can't get enough protein in. So how do we balance this? How did it how can we keep losing weight, get enough protein in and put muscle on?

Philip Pape 49:09

Yeah, Protein Protein is like the anchor macronutrient. It's the one that we peg the rest of our nutrition to. It's the one that we pick first, and we target first. And whether you're gaining weight or losing weight, the protein needs are about the same. So on a diet, it makes it harder because now you're sacrificing fats and carbs. When you're building, it's usually not as difficult. So the amount of protein we need, the quick rule of thumb is one gram per pound. So that's whatever you weigh. Take a gram per pound. The more nuanced answer is. There's a range between point seven and one that's considered optimal for most people, maybe even a little more when you're losing weight, and it's based on your target weight. So if you're very overweight, let's say you're 250 and your goal weight is 190. I'm going to have you shoot pretend that you're 190 pounds and base your protein off of that. So what I find is, especially for women, they tend to be under eating protein by roughly half, that's usually what I see. Yeah, so 160 pound female should be eating at least around 140, you don't have to get all the way to the one gram. And she's usually eating around 60 to 80. Right. And that's what happens when you just when you don't eat a lot of meat, but you eat some meat, and you usually don't have much protein with breakfast, and you're not having a lot of snacks. Or if you'd like intermittent fast, something like that. You just can't cram in all that protein, unless you intentionally do it. So every single plant I have struggled with this when they come in. And every single client I have this is one of our primary priorities from week one is getting that protein where it needs to be. And we talk about things like meal planning for that. So if you need to get I mean cared, if you need 160 grams of protein, you don't want to cram those into two meals, right? That's 80 grams. So by definition, do the math you need to eat four or five times a day. But one or two of those might just be a protein shake, or a small snack with dairy if you eat dairy, you know, like cottage cheese or Greek yogurt or something like that. And it's just simple math. And once you do that, you satisfy your protein requirements, no matter what your goal is, you get your enough protein for the day, and you spread it out evenly. You're good.

Karen Martel 51:25

Is there a? Is there an amount that we shouldn't go over per meal? As far as protein goes?

Philip Pape 51:31

There's no so there's no limit to protein per meal per day? Absolutely not. There used to be some concern about kidneys and whatnot. All of that is is a myth.

Karen Martel 51:41

Wow. Okay. And something that one of my trainers told me, she said, Because I said, I have trouble getting in that much protein because I'm not hungry. So I'll prioritize protein, and then find that by the end of the day, I still haven't eaten enough, but I'm not hungry. So it's hard. It was really hard for me. And she said, as you start lifting more, and then your hunger will go up. And so then the need for protein will increase. But so is that, you know, if we're listening to our body, we're not trying to overfeed ourselves. Correct?

Philip Pape 52:16

Right with the protein has been within our calorie needs, depending on what our deficit requirement or surplus requirement is.

Karen Martel 52:24

Okay. And so I would think especially doing this kind of style of workout that you're talking about, I could really see then that, yes, hunger would start to increase. And so the first and foremost thing to be eating is the protein because that's telling your body's telling you, you need more protein, because you're hungry.

Philip Pape 52:44

Yeah, that's a good point. And protein has a lot of benefits that are associated with that. One is protein is the most satiating macronutrient. So it will fill you up the most, which would explain why somebody trying to eat a lot would get fuller, more easily. But it's a good thing when you're dieting it helps. The second thing is it has the highest thermic effect of feeding. So it burns the most calories when being digested compared to the other macros. So just eating more protein burns more calories. And then what was the third thing? I can't remember off the top? But that's good enough for now.

Karen Martel 53:19

Yeah. And so with your clients and what you're seeing, even just with your own experience, and what's out there, how do we lose weight? Are we is it? Is it that we're just putting on muscle, we don't really have to pay attention as as long as we're eating healthy, we're getting a protein requirement. Do we need to be in still a caloric deficit to lose the fat part?

Philip Pape 53:47

Yeah, what what is our goal can't so this is where we can pick a scenario is this someone who feels that they're 20 to 30 pounds overweight, and they're trying to lose weight? Yeah. And so if it were a male client, and I said, Let's build muscle first, they'll listen to me, and let's just do it, a female clinic, and they'll lose 20

Karen Martel 54:05

pounds in a week without even trying. So let's just hear women are different.

Philip Pape 54:09

It's totally the opposite. So man, I struggle to have them getting away. But for women, what we would do first is, before we do any fat loss, we're gonna get you into a maintenance phase and discover your true maintenance calories and get some of these skills in place. So the most important skills for me are going to be enough protein training and steps. Okay, there are other things like sleep and stress that are also important, but it depends on the individual, you may have those handled. But if it's a big red flag that might pop to the top of the list. So once those are in place, and you're at maintenance for anywhere from two to four weeks, usually, and we see what your typical calorie burn is that we know that deficit is required to lose weight. So you have to be in a deficit to lose weight period. That's just energy balance. You know, this, I know is a rhetorical question, but

Karen Martel 54:57

no, no, but no, but yeah, I think It's good to remind people I'm

Philip Pape 55:01

good, my people. So then let's say you're you burn 2000 calories a day, that's your metabolism, and you want to lose weight, you want to lose about 20 or 30 pounds, you're gonna want to lose it at a reasonable rate of a quarter to 1% of your weight per week. So if let's just for number, say you starting at 200 pounds, so you could go up to two pounds a week, that's going to be tough in terms of the calorie deficit. So in the middle, let's say a pound a week. So a pound a week is about 3500 calories week, divided by seven, it's 500 calories a day. So your deficit is going to be 500 calories. So if your metabolism is 2000, you need to be eating 1500. And I'm sure a lot of women listening or are familiar with numbers like 1600 1200 calorie diets, even the very restrictive 800, which is crazy. Yeah. So 1500, I think is, is reasonable, if not slightly aggressive. But most people have done that. You take that number, and you start with protein. Now you say, Okay, we need, um, 200 pounds, and I want to get down to 170, I need about 170 grams of protein. So whatever calories that is, you know, multiply it by four your calories, then you go with fat. So fat is typically around 25 30% of your calories. Now, if you come from keto, you're probably used to it being like 50, or 60%. But guess what happens if you do that now you crowd out your carbs completely, which is going to be detrimental when we're trying to retain muscle or even build muscle. So that's, that's been a discussion about carbs. We need carbs for recovery. And we need it for glycogen when we work out. That's the main purpose. Even though our brain doesn't, even though our body, it's not essential, right? Carbs are not essential. You learn this with keto that you don't have to ingest any carbs and you can survive. But when we're trying to build muscle retain muscle, we need them. So if you've got Yeah, sorry

Karen Martel 56:55

to interrupt, but I just heard this great saying with this guy was like, Yeah, carbs aren't essential. However, that doesn't mean they're necessary that they're not necessary. It just means that you could survive without them. It doesn't mean there's not purpose to them.

Philip Pape 57:10

Right? Isn't there not optimal, and so on? Yeah, so if you're on 1600 calories, and you have 170 grams of protein, and then whatever the fat comes out to be, you're probably going to be in the one hundreds for carbs, which is not really, it's not keto. And it's not even low carb in some people's minds, right? It's going to be enough to to give you the energy you need. So that's the formula. One A lot of people do when they diet those, they don't eat enough protein. And so now they're trying to make up for it with fats and carbs. And they're just under eating in general. Yeah,

Karen Martel 57:41

yeah. Or they're eating and then they're eating too many carbs, just trying to meet that protein threshold that their body wants. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Okay. And then once again, everybody, there's nuances to that. So don't take it as it's written in stone, I always like to say we're all individual. Because if somebody's not lifting, then they should probably be still prioritizing protein 100%. But they probably shouldn't be eating as many carbs in my world, like, not try. I don't I don't, not one for like, Let's go below 50 Every single day. And being that keto, I think that that's super detrimental. Yeah, I agree. Some nuances there

Philip Pape 58:25

sedentary, a lot of these rules change. But it also, if you're talking truly sedentary and not doing any resistance training, is going to be hard to avoid losing muscle if you're on a diet as well. You know, that's, I mean, honestly, every one of my clients, I've got to have them trained. Like, I've even thought of having that as a prerequisite to getting clients because I think it's so important that you do that.

Karen Martel 58:49

Yeah, I know, I wish I could as well. A membership group, like I do these weekly meal plans inside my membership group, and there's always at least 150 members in there. And it's so hard for me to decide what the macros are going to be each day. Because there's such a wide variety, I have some women that are coming in that's that don't have an exercise for years, and they're sedentary. And then it's like ooh, or they're, you know, insulin resistant or type two diabetic. We have these problems. But then you have the next woman who's working out five days a week, who's putting on muscle, and she's like, 1500 calories. That's not enough, Karen, I need to eat more than that. I work out a lot. And then I'll have some people come in and be like, Oh, you've got more than 50 grams of carbs in this diet. I can't do that. I've been keto for two years. I'll put on five pounds overnight if I do eat like that. So it's like, oh, it's so frustrating for me because it's, I want to be able to have each person create their own but yeah, you know, yeah, so it's always challenging. Yeah, yeah. So I think it's just important. for everybody to know, you have to make it your own. And listen to this formula that Philips talking about and apply that to yourself. And then you may just if you're getting a meal plan from somewhere, whether it's from me or somewhere else that you adjust it to meet those needs for you. That's super key.

Philip Pape 1:00:17

Yeah, yeah. And I think meal planning is a good skill to develop on your own as well. Because it helps you avoid decision making in the moment, it actually helps with emotional eating helps with overeating, in that you can, like if today is Tuesday, tomorrow's Wednesday, go ahead and plan out your day and make it fit these numbers and see what it takes to do that, you might find it very difficult. And that's why you're struggling every day to hit it in the moment because you can't even do it on paper, you know, ahead of time, of course, it's going to be impossible to do in the moment. So let's, let's play the game of Tetris. And let's figure out how to move things around or go with a low fat version of dairy instead of a full fat or, you know, add some more meat here and take something out here and so on. Yeah, I think that's a good skill.

Karen Martel 1:00:59

That's great. Great, great, great. Okay, so mindset. Last couple questions here. You know, that's probably everybody's biggest failure, as far as working out goes is they have that, that their mindset hasn't changed. So then they get into these programs, and you know, a month in, they fall off the old wagon. And next thing, you know, they haven't worked out and I did this everybody, I did this, like, I feel like my entire life, the start, stop, stop, start stop when it came to working out because of so many different things that would just be like, oh, yeah, I'm tired today. I don't want to work out. So how can you give us some pointers? For those women that find it tough to stick to? What would you say to somebody that has a hard time sticking to working out.

Philip Pape 1:01:55

So this is where, of course, of course, you're gonna have to ask the why, right? Because the reason is going to be different. But this is where I think controlling your environments, and maybe a concept like habit stacking could be helpful, just a couple things that come to mind. So controlling your environment, meaning if your reason you're not going to the gym is because it's early in the morning, you get out of bed, you're like oh nine to get my gym clothes, and my protein powder, and this and that, and it's cold outside, and then I have to jump like, forget it snooze. Well, maybe you take the day before you work out, or you're fresh and you know, excited. You put your gym bag together, you grab your blender bottle, you get everything set up, put it near the door. And then the next day, when you wake up, you're like, you know, that'd be way too much work to undo everything I just did. Let me just go to the gym. It's kind of controlling your environment, right to reduce friction. Another thought is habit stacking. It's a cool concept. I think that came from atomic habits, the book atomic habits, where you pick a thing that you really enjoy, and couple it with the thing that you don't enjoy as much. And only allow yourself to do the thing you don't enjoy, or the thing you enjoy with that. So that could be like, I'm gonna watch streaming while I get my steps on the treadmill. And I'm not gonna allow myself to watch unless I go on the treadmill, or things like that, I can't think of an example. I'll

Karen Martel 1:03:12

give you a map because that that was one of my biggest blocks was, I had so much work to do. And I could I just was like, I was so addicted to working, that it was so hard for me to pull away and have this block of time to go work out because I'd be like, Oh my gosh, I have so much to do today. I can't even I don't have time for working out. And so I decided that that's an excuse. And so I'm like, I'm gonna I didn't know it was called habit stacking. I'm gonna have it stack. I didn't say those words. But, and I started in between my sets because I was lifting pretty heavy. I always took a couple of minutes in between sets is I started doing I would agree with putting an agreement with myself, I would say to myself, you can check your email while you work out and respond. And so in between sets, I would I would reply to all my emails, but I had to do so that took away because that's usually the first thing I do when I get to work every day is check emails and respond to them so that I just put them together and it worked out beautifully. And now I don't have a problem oral listen to a podcast teaching me something so that I have this because I think I have a little add or something because I need like that constant stimulate. So if I'm educating my brain as I'm working my body Oh, that's just like the dream team. Right? They're totally, totally good. Yeah, yeah. Mine's going which takes care of that. So I don't feel unsettled there as well as my body's working out. So it really helped with that because it helps with people. I think too that find working boring.

Philip Pape 1:04:54

Yes, yes. And that's the other thing is the boring working out part. It's like again, why are you bored because it's a lack of variety. There's a there's a solution for that. But if it's just like you said, just you just always find it boring. Maybe you stack it with checking your email. Yeah, for sure.

Karen Martel 1:05:10

Oh, I love it. Okay, so tell us now, what it looks like to work with you. How does? What does that? Look? Are we doing weekly check ins? I mean, are you working with only people in person? How does it work? Virtually? Yep. Tell us?

Philip Pape 1:05:25

Yeah, no, it's online only. So I can work with anyone around the world, in the modern day. And basically, we work on getting you through an initial phase that when we prepare your metabolism for fat loss, so most of my clients that come in, they want to lose weight, they want to lose fat. So we want to spend that time up front with a lot of the skills we just talked about, protein steps, and so on. And there's a whole bunch of other little things that I can work with, and tools and resources and guides. And the value of having a coach and Karen understands this and our listeners is the accountability and that extrinsic motivation, because we all want to do this and know we have to do it. But we don't always do it. Having somebody to push you day after day, give you some tough love, whatever communication style works for you can be super helpful and keeping you on path till those things become habits. So you may know you have to get a lot of protein, but you continue to struggle doing it, somebody there's looking over your shoulder and looking at your numbers and having to track, you're probably going to do it. And if you don't do it, we're gonna have a conversation, we're gonna understand why we're gonna say roadblocks remove all the things you just talked about, so that you are successful,

Karen Martel 1:06:37

Philips gonna ground you and you're gonna be in big trouble.

Philip Pape 1:06:42

Whatever your communication styles, it's all good. I try try to be empathetic best I can. And so we go through that phase. And that might be as short as two weeks, it might be as long as four to six weeks. And I don't want to say you necessarily earn your fat loss. But effectively, I don't want you to start losing weight until those other things are in place. Because then it'd be successful training and all those other things. So you get the benefit of of also working with me that I tend to understand training and can give you recommendations and do form checks and all that, then we do the fat loss phase. And that can take whatever it takes for your particular situation, the entire time are focused on not restricting and not cutting out food groups, and not taking away the things you enjoy. But incorporating those at the right level, the right level of restraint and learning skills to manage things like going out on the weekends and social events and so on. Once we're done with that, and hit your target, and you're super happy now we're like what's next? Well, do we maintain our weight? Do we start building muscle, and you might now be inclined to actually gain weight and build muscle because you know, you can control your environment, you can control your, your health. And that's kind of the long and short of it care.

Karen Martel 1:07:52

I love it. I think it's so important. And I think everybody listening needs to ask themselves, you know, what has been your history with working out like when I was honest with myself, and I could see that I was a yo yo exerciser that I would you know, I've always had the eating down, it's always come very easily to me, I eat really well. But the working out did not come easy to me. And it was like I kept waiting for it to come easy. I kept waiting for the energy to want to go work out and the desire to be like, yes, it's looks like so much fun. I want to go work out and do this every day. And it never did. You know, in 40 years, I never got those feelings. And so I had to be very honest with myself. And I want everybody to be honest with themselves and ask what you know yourself. If it's if what you've been doing hasn't worked up until now, then you need to do something different. And that accountability and having somebody watch over your shoulder, as Philip said, is priceless. In my eyes. It really truly is. It's what got me into it for the first time in my life was simply by having a trainer, looking at my food, looking at my workouts and checking in with me on a weekly basis. It was amazing.

Philip Pape 1:09:16

Yeah, and I like to say that if if you can fire me and say six months and be successful for the rest of your life, and I did my job. I don't care that I'm losing a client. You can tell everyone Yeah.

Karen Martel 1:09:28

Oh, yeah, that's that's like what what our goal is, I want you to fire me in six months. There we go. Like that's awesome. Yeah. All right. Well, I think I'm gonna have to have you back. I would love to do a q&a style with you fill out with one from the listeners. You know, everybody can send in their questions and we can set it up for those that are working out or just getting started. And in the meantime, though, you guys you got to check out Philips podcast Wits & Weights I've been listening to Do it. It's great. He's got great information on there. Plus, he's got a really good Facebook group that I'm part of. I also got Philips free gift, which you guys can all go get. Which is it the still the same because I did this months ago it is yes. And Ken. So tell us about what

Philip Pape 1:10:16

that is. It's a 14 day protein power transformation program that will just help you instill those habits of getting more protein.

Karen Martel 1:10:24

Yes, which I think most of us ladies could really use. So go check it out. It was great. I did it. And it definitely helped me to see how else I could be getting some more protein into my diet. So thank you so much, Philip. I am really excited about this new friendship

Philip Pape 1:10:42

to ecstatic this is this is great love. Yes, it was so good.

Karen Martel 1:10:45

All right. I'm gonna have you back again. But thank you so much for coming on the show.

Philip Pape 1:10:50

Thank you, Karen. It's great to be here. Thanks for listening to the show. Before you go, I have a quick favorite ask. If you enjoy the podcast, let me know by leaving a five star review in Apple podcasts and telling others about the show. Thanks again for joining me Philip Pape in this episode of Wits & Weights. I'll see you next time and stay strong.

Philip Pape 12/6/22 Philip Pape 12/6/22

Ep 35: Learn to Enjoy Your Training for Optimal Health and Consistent Results with Paul Hanton

Paul Hanton joined me to talk about different types of training and how to be consistent and get the most enjoyment from your workouts so you can reach your fitness goals. Paul is the owner of Hydra Fitness, a personal training company that helps career-driven men lose weight without giving up spending time with family or friends.

Paul Hanton joined me to talk about different types of training and how to be consistent and get the most enjoyment from your workouts so you can reach your fitness goals.

Paul is the owner of Hydra Fitness, a personal training company that helps career-driven men lose weight without giving up spending time with family or friends.

He is also the podcast host of the Healthy Fit Life podcast, which is focused on educating listeners on how they can improve their health through quick and easy tips to implement in their life.

As a Certified Strength and Conditioning Coach, Paul has helped numerous busy men lose weight and improve their health. Paul was also diagnosed with Crohn’s disease in 2014 but has not let that stop him from his fitness goals or enjoying life.

Topics discussed in this episode:

Paul’s background as a coach/trainer and what inspired him to get into fitness
Why people might not enjoy their training
Why people slog through workouts if they don’t enjoy them
The importance of doing some sort of activity for optimal health
What people can do if they don’t enjoy their current training
Alternatives to strength training and ranking those activities
Whether training is required for a specific goal (even if you don’t like it)

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Watch the episode on video here

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👨‍💻 HOSTED BY

Philip Pape of Wits & Weights (Instagram 👉 @witsandweights)

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Transcript

Philip Pape 00:08

Philip Pape 00:30

Welcome to another episode of Wits & Weights. Joining me today is Paul Hanten. To talk about different types of training, how to be consistent how to get the most enjoyment from your workouts, so you can reach your fitness goals. Paul is the owner of Hydra fitness really cool name. They're a personal training company that helps career driven men lose weight without giving up spending time with family or friends. He's also the podcast host of the healthy Fit Life podcast, make sure to subscribe, which is focused on educating listeners on how they can improve their health through quick and easy tips to implement in their life. As a Certified Strength and conditioning coach, Paul has helped numerous busy men lose weight and improve their health. Paul was also diagnosed with Crohn's disease in 2014, but has not let that stop him from his fitness goals or enjoying life. Paul, it's good to see you again. Thank you so much for joining me on the show.

Paul Hanton 01:24

Yeah, thank you for having me. I appreciate it. I enjoyed our previous conversation on my own podcast. So thanks again for inviting me.

Philip Pape 01:29

Yeah, we just we just met, maybe I think it was last week, we had a conversation, a lot about body composition. And today we're going to talk specifically about training. You're an experienced trainer, a coach. And there's kind of a cool angle we're going to take today, which is having to do with people's inspiration and motivation for training, whether they enjoy it different modes of training, all sorts of cool things that I want to get into with you. Before we dive into those, though, just if you could give us a little bit of your background relevant to this as a Coach and Trainer, what inspired you to get into fitness?

Paul Hanton 02:05

Yeah, no, that's a great question. So I've been in fitness in some capacity most of my life. So I did sports growing up. And then I joined the Marines. And then of course, in the Marines, fitness is a really big part of being in the Marines and being a military period. In the Marines. That's when I started working with a trainer actually, and gotten to bodybuilding. And that's when I started to really learn more about fitness and especially nutrition and started actually having a training program and a nutrition plan. And following that, and so ended up over the over the course of several years have done well for bodybuilding competitions. And then I've also because I had such a good experience working with my own trainer, and how much he changed my life. And I was still working with him today. I wanted to give back and help others accomplish their goals. And so I started to be started to training others as well just on the side, giving, you know, free tips and tricks here and there. And then I started personal training as as a business as well later on, but it's really just about help trying to help other people accomplish their goals, like my trainer helped me because he changed my life.

Philip Pape 03:12

Awesome. So the value of coaches and accelerating your learning from that point. Sounds like the bodybuilding background, I could believe it, you know, you seem like extremely fit guy knows what you're talking about. And we have that conversation the other day about the importance of strength training, not only building muscle, but body composition and other things. But not everyone enjoys that mode of fitness, which is hard to believe. It's hard for guys like us, who probably can't get enough where like, I go into the gym eight days a week if I could, right. But so why is it then helped me understand why do some people just dislike or even hate their training?

Paul Hanton 03:51

Yeah, and you brought up a really good point. When I first got into bodybuilding, I loved it, I dove, my my trainer gave me a five day a week program and said eat these things at this time is great. I loved it. I still love it. And but when I became a trainer, that was my thought process, well, strength training is great for you. It's really beneficial for you. Why doesn't everybody do it? And so, but as I started training or clients, I realized I had to make an adjustment in my training methodology that not everyone wants to go to the gym and strength train five days a week, right that and I had to incorporate other methodologies of training because what I'm more focused on is long term health and so I've had to adjust my my mindset around training. I've been putting a lot of thought towards what to do with clients who maybe don't aren't as passionate about strength training as I am but they still want to be active and accomplish their goals or lose weight. And so that led me to this topic we're gonna talk about is why do people hate their training and then what what to do about it?

Philip Pape 04:55

Yeah, and you touched on a point there which strikes me it has to do with consistency. adherence, right? If you don't like what you're doing if you're not going to come into the gym, is, is that worse than, you know, not doing the optimal program? Should we should we come in and be active in some way shape or form versus just sitting around and not doing something simply because we don't enjoy it?

Paul Hanton 05:18

Exactly. That's exactly it activity is beneficial for you. And that's, I'm not going to go into all the details of why being active is so beneficial for you. Right? That's, I think a lot of people, most people understand that conception, right. But I think there's a gap between, okay, you understand that activity is beneficial for you. But then a lot of people just don't do enough activity. And I think a large part of that is because I think especially in the fitness industry, we talk a lot about how beneficial strength training is, which I 100% agree with. But then there's a lot of people that don't enjoy strength training, but they enjoy other things like riding a bike or, or running or swimming. And so I think we're, there's a lot of people that kind of just quit after a month or two months, because we push strength training so much when they don't like it, when it when we really shouldn't be doing we should talk more about is looking long term and trying to incorporate ways that they can have some sort of activity that they enjoy, that they can consistently do it over a long period of time.

Philip Pape 06:20

So before we get to that aspect, you know, you mentioned people will will do it anyway. Maybe they think it's the right thing to do. Or maybe they have a coach that is just kind of stubborn and saying this is the way it is right. Why do people? Why do people push through anyway, they slog through they grin and bear it when it comes to the workouts that they don't enjoy?

Paul Hanton 06:38

Yeah, so I think there's a couple reasons for that one, I think that and especially the social media, or maybe our culture, we kind of push suffering and sacrifice, I see those words tossed around a lot, you got to make sacrifices, you got to suffer through this or you know, you got to show pain, no gain, right? Exactly. No pain, no gain slog through it, just get it done, like all these other words and mantras, etc, etc. And so I think that people take a look at that. And they think, Okay, well, that's what I need to do, right, I need to give blood, sweat and tears in order to accomplish my goals. But the problem is that, if you're not passionate about or you don't enjoy what you're doing, you're not going to do it for a long period of time. And the other aspect is I think we so I'll read a quote from Muhammad Ali that I thought was very, very relevant to this discussion. And so it's a very famous quote, probably heard it before, but he said, I hated every minute of training. But I said, Don't quit suffer now and live the rest of your life as a champion, right? And so I think people, people look at that, or professional athletes and say, Okay, well, Ramona, Lee says, I have to suffer through and I hated every minute of training, right? But in reality, Muhammad Ali is a professional, but was professional athlete, right, best of the best a champion. But what people also need to understand is that Muhammad Ali loved boxing, right, he was very passionate about it. And so yes, he may have hated some aspects of training and suffered through it. But he's also very passionate about what he was doing, and he enjoyed it. And I think that's the disconnect a lot of people have is that they look at, you know, professional athletes, or people who take things to the extreme and think, Okay, well, no, they're suffering through that. So I have to suffer as well. But they're ultimately the aspect of will they enjoy it? Right? Just like I enjoy strength training. So I have no problem with going to the gym and going through a workout. Do I enjoy it every single day? No, but I enjoy it overall, most of the time.

Philip Pape 08:34

So what about that initial that initial hesitance? When you're not familiar with the mode of training yet? Right? It could be strength training, it could be anything really, where there's a hump you have to get over there's like that initial motivation or maybe maybe even willpower, that initially right? And it helps to have a coach. How soon do you make the determination that you truly don't enjoy something? When you when you talk to a client? They say, I'm not really into this, and it's their first session or second session? How do you approach that? Knowing that maybe they will enjoy it once they build some momentum?

Paul Hanton 09:07

Yeah, that's a good that's a good another great question. Right? And so if I if I have a client who might not be enjoying going to the gym or strength training, or I will say doing, like working out, doing a push workout or post workout, one of the things I want to know is why is it because they feel uncomfortable going to the gym? Is it because they don't feel uncomfortable doing the movements? Is it because they truly just don't enjoy strength training? That's one of the things that I tried to dig into and I would encourage anyone listening who was also having those same thoughts is to ask yourself really why why why don't you enjoy strength training or why don't you enjoy going to the gym? And and sometimes it's just familiarity thing, right? They just need a little more time to get familiar with the workouts and other times it's because they just really just don't enjoy it have zero motivation to lift weights and that's okay.

Philip Pape 09:58

Okay, so there's a We see multiple possibilities you have to attack you ask the question why that's a great question is a code great is understanding the root cause? So, you know, from one angle I see is an educational angle, right? You want to educate your clients on the importance of activity, specific types of activity and activity in general. So how do you do that? How do you raise awareness, which then may reduce the friction of why they think it's not enjoyable? How do you raise awareness of why we need to move and train?

Paul Hanton 10:29

Yeah, so one of the things I do is depends on the client. So I think that a good trainer is going to treat each client individually. And that's one mistake I made when I first started training is I treated each client as the same, right? If that, okay, you're gonna go, you're going to the gym five days a week, or three days a week, or four days a week, right? And you're gonna, here's a nutrition plan. But then over time, I started to realize that I had to treat each client individually to take into account their previous training history, what they like to do, what their goals are. And so your question, one of the things that I do is, I make sure to understand their previous training history, right. So like, I had a client who had a really bad experience working with the in person trainer, right, which which happens occasionally. But her issue wasn't that she didn't like strength training, she just had a really poor experience working with a personal trainer. And so I had to kind of coach her through, okay, I'm here, have any questions and concerns. And we kind of walked through a program with her to help her understand the movements a little better and get her more comfortable. And the other thing I realized is, I can't just throw someone off in the deep end and say, Okay, you're gonna go squat, bench deadlift, and there you go. And so I make sure to incorporate movements that they can accomplish, and they can actually do that build momentum that builds momentum over time and builds confidence. And so they feel more confident going the gym, doing the movements, and ideally, they'll enjoy it, which is the end goal, and they'll want to do it consistently for a long period of time. But it's about starting where someone's at, and then kind of building off from there to build momentum with what they're doing.

Philip Pape 11:59

I love that idea, Paul, because I people will hear me on on the podcast talk a lot about the importance of compound lifts and barbell work and cotton. You know, yeah, in a perfect world, I could just drop you in and you go to town, great. But you might be 72 year old female with a lot of strength, maybe can't even squat, you know, not even down to quarter depth. Where do we start? That's, that's where we have lighter implements, and exact leg presses and boxes and things. So that that's a great idea. So for this, this initial assessment, how does that how does that look for in your particular coaching business with your clients? Is this a form they fill out? Do you come in and assess their mobility? How does that work?

Paul Hanton 12:38

Yeah, no, that's a good question. So I have a form that they fill out when they first start before they started working with me. And before I started even creating their training program. But like, like most most trainers out there, I'm a, again, a big proponent of strength training. And I want to emphasize that I think strength training is fantastic for multiple reasons. And there's multiple research that backs up how important training is not just from a weight loss perspective, just from, you know, healthy overall life perspective. However, one thing I try to do is to make sure that I incorporate activities that I know that they can do one and another actually going to enjoy. And so in the formative fill out, they do list out if, for example, if they enjoy working on certain body parts, or if they have a body part that they want to improve or work on, or if there are some sort of activity that they're already doing that they enjoy. And so I take all this into account and build a program around what they're currently doing, what I know they can they can accomplish. So for example, I have a client who started work with me and he loves, He loves cycling, right? I hate cycling, but he loves it, right. So I incorporate cycling into his training program, because I know he enjoys it. And so he does a hybrid approach of cycling and strength training. And he's been able to consistently do that he's been with me for I don't know, six or seven months now. But he really is he really enjoys that hybrid approach, because you can do cycling, which he loves, also do a little bit of strength training to help out with his cycling. So works out pretty well. But it's really just comes down to understanding the needs the goals, and then creating a program around those goals and needs, but also making sure that somebody they can start and accomplish because again, if you throw someone off in the deep end, you know there's gonna sink or quit immediately.

Philip Pape 14:24

Yeah, so it sounds like you're you have an excellent process to set people up for success success from the beginning, understanding them as individuals, as opposed to here's a template cookie cutter, right? Oh, templates are terrible. Yeah, yeah. Absolutely. And so what you get them going, what if then after a while there, then they're still not enjoying their training and so they don't show up on Wednesday and then not being consistent. It's no longer fun for them. What do you do then?

Paul Hanton 14:52

Yeah, that's when a good trainer start digging into why. And what you don't want to do is jump to jump to a conclusions or make assumptions for what's going on. Because there could be outside factors that you're not even aware of. Right? They could be going through a tough time at work that could be really busy with kids with life. And a lot of different factors you have to take into consideration but it's always just starting a conversation. And again, you don't want to jump to conclusions and assume, okay, well there, there's going to quit or it can do the workout, it can be a lot of other factors. So that's the first thing I do is to make sure that I start asking questions and trying to really dig into what's going on. So So for example, if a client like they missed a full company to workout workouts, right and a week, back to back consistently, that's, that's a yellow flag, right? Okay, something's off, something's something went wrong if they make a system for the last two months, but now the sharp nose slide. Okay, we need to have a conversation. So that's when I'll just reach out and ask, Hey, you know, I saw you missed a couple workouts, what's going on? How are things going with you? And again, it could be a wide multiple due to factors. But it's always it's always just a conversation that a good trainer is going to have with that client to better understand what's going on in their life that would that would force some sort of change in so in their behavior.

Philip Pape 16:11

Now, are you monitoring real time? Not real time, like with a wearable? But are you monitoring things like biofeedback with these clients, as you go along to get ahead of that?

Paul Hanton 16:20

Yeah, so they have the option of of connecting their Apple Watch, or Fitbit or whatever, where they have with the training app, so I can see those stats. But I can also, I can also track how their workouts are going in real time. So they'll put in their how much weight they're using. So for example, I have a client who I need consistently, I tell him to lift, lift, heavier, right, add more weight, add more weight, add more weight, but I can see that in real time how they're doing it, I give them feedback, after every workout. So I can see if they miss a workout instantly, then I can reach out instantly to find out what went wrong or why they missed work. And again, sometimes it's just life, they got busy. But you don't want that to turn into a snowball effect to suddenly they're missing, you know, a week's worth of workouts or a month worth of workouts, right?

Philip Pape 17:07

Yeah, absolutely not. And that's where a coach comes in, right to give you that extrinsic nudge for consistency. You've mentioned some you might actually I like the thing you said about progressive, basically progressive overload, ensuring that the client is actually adding weight over time as one of the metrics, as opposed to just showing up. I think that's really important that you do that. So So that's cool. For people listening, you know, that's one of the keys to actually building muscle and strength, right is increasing the load over time.

Paul Hanton 17:35

Yeah, I want to, I'll touch on want to touch on that. Really Sure. Because when it comes to progressive overload, we talk a lot about strength training. But there's also ways to progressively overload for any sort of activity right? In point oh, if someone wants to go cycling, do cycling, well, there's ways to progressively overload in cycling as well, by increasing the amount of time trying to go faster. If same thing with running or walking, you can increase the amount of distance you run or walk. And so when he talks about progressive overload, you got to make sure and again, I don't think anyone should, you know, pour their blood, sweat and tears into every sort of workout activity, but you do want to make it challenging and hard. Cuz that way your body will adapt to whatever you throw at it. And so if you consistently challenge your body when ever you're doing, that's the way to go, rather than just lollygagging through workouts. I want to emphasize that that whatever activity you do, you do want to make sure you're challenging yourself appropriately.

Philip Pape 18:32

Yeah, that's a great point. And the lollygagging thing is I'll say it's a little bit subjective for some people because I went through eight years of CrossFit and didn't get super strong. I felt like I was working out really hard though. But there's these kind of subjective definitions if you know sweating, and soreness and heart rate versus, you know, challenging yourself to muscular failure or to spray it on the bike or whatever, metric. Hey, this is Philip pape, letting you know that applications are now open for one on one coaching. If you're a busy working professional, who has tried dieting and exercising for years, with little in the way of results, and you want to lose fat, get lean or feel confident in your body without excessive dieting, cardio or restrictions. Just go to wits & weights.com/coaching to apply. Go back to if somebody just doesn't want to lift which again boggles my mind, Paul, but if so he just doesn't want to lift what would be the next best type of training for them. Yeah, so

Paul Hanton 19:35

I think we talked about when we talk about strength training, the first thing that comes to mind for a lot of people is going to the gym and lifting weights, right like barbell dumbbell, maybe maybe even kettlebell, maybe not. But that's what people think when they when they think about strength training. And so what I like to do is offer different training modalities when it comes to strength training. So for example, I tell all my clients to invest in resistance spans. And I encourage every single listener listening to invest in resistance bands, because they're really cheap on Amazon. But you can do so many different things with resistance bands. And I found a lot of clients may, they may not want to go to the gym consistently, but they'll they love resistance bands because they can take them with them on the road, they can easily transport them anywhere. They're very cheap and easy to use. And so that's one aspect I look at is okay, maybe they don't want to maybe they don't enjoy lifting weights, or maybe they just don't want to do it, you know, three days a week, well, how else can we challenge those muscles, right. And resistance bands are a great way to do that. I even have clients that just do Bodyweight Workouts, because that's where they're at right now. And, and they they don't, they can't really handle anything more than just bodyweight. I think that's fantastic, as well. So when it comes to strain training, there are different avenues, you can go with strain training. So like resistance bands bodyweight, we can also look at different types of strain training to you can do powerlifting strongman CrossFit has aspects of training training in it as well. And so it's trying to just trying to figure out, Okay, what's a good fit for that client? Because they don't like just, you know, don't go to the bodybuilder approach of five sets of 10, or five sets of eight per body part. That's fine. What else can we do to incorporate strength training? Because again, I want to emphasize, strength training has many, many benefits and everybody, ideal world, everybody would love to do it. But that's not that's not reality, but want to try to incorporate some sort of train training in their programming, if possible.

Philip Pape 21:28

Yeah. So those are great examples of many different modes of training, it still involves some load. Exactly. And the resistance bands are great. I heard I think it was stronger by science the other a few weeks back talking about the the ongoing debate about how much work you need to do to maintain your strength. Yeah, once you have it. Good. I know, we're talking about development of strength, but even maintaining it's something like 1/8 to a quarter of your typical workout and just having bands, and doing that for a while. could maintain strength that you develop with barbells. Right. Right, you know, yeah. Right. So that now what if so, have you ever met somebody who just doesn't want to do any form of resistance whatsoever?

Paul Hanton 22:09

I've not encountered that yet. All my clients do some sort of resistance training, whether it's bodyweight resistance bands, or going to the gym. And I think a large part of that is, I do push it early on to especially if they have no training experience to start, you know, bodyweight resistance bands, and doing lightweight at the gym, like machines, something easy, and then kind of build on from there. Yeah, I've yet encountered anyone who doesn't want to do any of those things. Like usually, you can kind of get them to do bodyweight at least. Or resistance bands. Those are pretty easy cells in lieu of going to the gym. But yeah, I've encountered anyone that just outright does not want to do any sort of bodyweight resistance band or strength training.

Philip Pape 22:56

Yeah. And the fact that they want the fact they walk through your doors, probably they know they have a goal want to get fitter and healthier. And you know, you're an expert. So right, if one of the first things you say is, hey, we've got to, we've got to incorporate this. It's like your nutrition coach saying, you know, we've got to eat more protein, like we just do it. It's what we do, you know, to get healthier. Yeah, the other

Paul Hanton 23:18

thing I'll add is that I don't there, I have clients who do all sorts of other activities, and I make sure not to take those away, I make sure that they enjoy playing soccer, they still have time to play soccer, and they enjoy walking with their kids, that walking is fantastic. And I make sure that they still have the ability to do that. And so part of it is just incorporating things that they like, and interfacing that with resistance training so that way, they get a hybrid approach, but which I still I still think is fantastic. So again, like a good trainer is going to work with you on your goals. And I try not to take away things too much, right? Yeah, I can.

Philip Pape 23:55

Yeah. So it's it's the goals, the goals drive behavior. Exactly. What if What if a client has a goal to be a, as you mentioned, powerlifting strongman, things like that. What about endurance training athletes? Marathon or ultra marathoner? Or, like obstacle course race?

Paul Hanton 24:11

Yeah, so I still think there's benefits to doing strength training for endurance running obstacle course, you know, whatever, whatever running. So in that, so like, going back to the my client who loves cycling, like he did, and he, he got these cycles a lot goes far way farther than I could probably go. And he's in his 60s to it. He's phenomenal. Right? But what I what I tried to do, I did a lot of research in terms of okay, what are some strange hanging activities that are beneficial for cycling? And that way I can I can kind of I sold it as hey, you know, you're you're doing some strength training was gonna be beneficial for those long endurance cycling, runs your cycling, cycling races, yeah, coming up. Right. And so there are same thing is still very important for endurance athletes or, or athletes that are more We're focused on like cardiovascular or endurance type sports. But it's all about just understanding the types of string chain that they should be doing. Right. So if you're, if you're a marathon runner than I was, you know, you don't have to go in the gym and do heavy squats, right, probably do maybe do like lighter weights or do other sorts of activities or walking lunges. And so it's really just about understanding the goal that they have and what they want to accomplish, and then devising an effective training program around that.

Philip Pape 25:27

And so speaking of goals, then I imagine you have a lot of clients that come in that want to lose weight, or lose fat, that's probably probably the maybe the number one goal I'm gonna guess. Probably, yeah. And how would you prioritize activity? If they just put their trust in your hands? They said, Okay, I'm gonna listen, I'm going to do what you're telling me to do. And tell me what the best thing is to do? How would you prioritize our activity?

Paul Hanton 25:49

Yeah, what I always prioritize strength training, if I can, and then I interspaced that with some cardio, I'm not a, I don't enjoy cardio. So I personally don't do it all that often. But I still think it's good. And one reason I think is good is because well, one cardio a lot of benefits for you, but also it gives that my clients something else to do other than go in the gym and lifting, right, so kind of breaks up the monotony a little bit. And I found that a lot of people, they like that, that hybrid approach of okay, they're gonna do strength training, they're gonna do some cardio and strength training. Now, they're not doing the same thing over and over again, but they are but it doesn't, it doesn't feel that way to them, right, because they got their kind of weak broken up. Whereas someone else, they, it really depends on their goals, right? Like, if they want to do they want to become a bodybuilder, then I'll put them in the gym five days a week, purely strength training, you know, a lot of calories, and they're fine, but for most of my clients, so it's always a hybrid approach of finding out what works best for them. And I found a hybrid approach of incorporating strength training and emphasizing that, but also incorporating cardio or other forms of cardiovascular activities to give them something else to do throughout the week. So that way, they're not just bored and, you know, hitting hitting life every single day.

Philip Pape 27:00

Yeah, and that's a good point about using cardio as a form of enjoyment if you like it. Not because you have to not because it's it's a great way to you know, burn fat or anything. And you said you don't enjoy it too much. I'm kind of in that club a little bit. So we have to get creative. It's okay, though. What, just on a tangent. What is? What are forms of cardio that you enjoy?

Paul Hanton 27:22

Yeah, so I'll give you a little backstory, my cardio history. So in the marine when I was in the Marines, we ran a lot, right. So we had our three mile run as our physical fitness tests. And I hated it. I hated running hated, every second of it hated it hated every step. But when I was preparing to go to off of the candidate school, I was on a training program to improve my runtime, and I ran six days a week. Now, do I run six days a week now? Absolutely not. I haven't rancid I left the Marines, right because I don't enjoy it. And that goes back to my point of yeah, you can suffer through something short term, but long term, there's no way I'm going to go back to running. But what I do now is I do a lot of Stairmaster or short hit style workouts or just walking on incline on the treadmill for a short amount of time. Just something and it's more just to kind of break up the monotony so doing something different but also just kind of getting some cardio extra cardio in. I'm not a huge proponent of doing a lot of cardio but I still think it has its place in time.

Philip Pape 28:23

Yeah, like that. Just making it fit. I know people that go they love to lift the big weights and like okay, go push the Prowler right because that's you know, big manly thing gets a push this heavy sled you know, you're like a football player. Guess what? You're getting cardio. So and you probably get a lot of cardio just doing heavy deadlifts, let's be honest. Right?

Paul Hanton 28:46

Yeah, yeah, you can incorporate typing, you know, Carson's types of cardio weight and your strength training as well. That's the beauty of it.

Philip Pape 28:53

So continuing on the theme of with a client who has a specific goal, and you mentioned a bodybuilder, for example. Do you encounter situations where they're maybe doing too much of something they shouldn't be doing? And you have to have to coach them to back off on that?

Paul Hanton 29:08

Yeah, I think what I think commonly, and probably other trainers experienced this as well as people doing too much cardio and emphasizing that, and some part of that's just education. Right. And I think I think, I think in the fitness industry, we're doing a really good job of that of emphasizing strength training and coming around to emphasizing that over you know, hours of cardio. And so when it comes to someone who has a very specific goal, it really depends on what the goal is in crafting your training program around that goal. But in the case of a bodybuilder, obviously, you're gonna have them lift heavy and in the gym and lift weights because no other way around that. And I think that's a really key consideration if someone has a very specific goal in their training is going to be have to have to be very specific to match that specific goal. And there's really no there's no way around that Right, if you want to run a marathon, what what do you what are you going to what sort of training are you going to have to do? Right, you're gonna have to go run a lot. If you want to be bodybuilder, you have to lift a lot. And so I think for anyone listening, if they had, do you have a very specific goal in that in that training is going to be very specific, and then they're going to have to kind of suck it up and go do it or just not do it at all.

Philip Pape 30:20

And is there a way to, is a way to change it for the individual with things like your programming, your periodization, mezzo cycle, so we don't have to get too technical, but things like that.

Paul Hanton 30:30

Yeah, there are ways to do that. And I think that if they have a specific goal, especially if they're wanting to do a competition, and that that periodization periodization is very key, and then crafting a really solid training program around that goal. And again, we keep talking about goals, because that's, that's extremely crucial, because your training has to help with that goal, in terms of what you want to accomplish. And nutrition is a whole another another thing that also has to be aligned with your goal. But it all comes back to your goals and what you want to accomplish. And even for someone who just wants to lose weight or improve their health, that's still a goal, and your training has to match that goal. And it may not be you know, extreme amounts of training, but there's still gonna be something involved there any good training program in order to accomplish any sort of goal?

Philip Pape 31:19

Sorry, good training program. So if they're reaching out to you, Paul, are you in person online? Both? What's your mode of operation here?

Paul Hanton 31:27

Yeah, no, I'm online. I do occasionally in person here and there. But most of my classes are online around around the US,

Philip Pape 31:34

and how to how does someone get feedback from you on for example, their form and technique, which is really important when you get started?

Paul Hanton 31:41

Yep. Format technique? So that's a really good question, especially when you're training online. So there's a couple avenues. tools that I use one, I'll have them record themselves, especially if there's a technique that they haven't done before. So for example, deadlift or squat, right, or even a bench to have them record themselves and send me the video, that way I can critique their critique their form. However, I always make sure to if they're new to a lift, I always kind of progressively get there. So for example, if someone's never, never done a squat before, I don't automatically say okay, here, go to your classes a 10 on the squat rack, try to work their way up, even if I have to start at okay, you're doing air squats first, right? And then and you may be Oprah will progress up to even a smith machine. And then we'll do just a bar, right. And so we'll kind of work build our way up to that to that point, depending on where they're at. But always start with where they're at first. And then kind of build my way up from there on where they need to go.

Philip Pape 32:42

Yeah, makes sense. And I imagine even once they get to the full movement, you know, it could take weeks or months for people to really nail down the forum. Yeah. Cool. All right. I like to ask this question of all guests. But is there a question you wish I had asked? And what is your answer? Yeah, we

Paul Hanton 32:59

talked about someone hitting their training or not liking their training. One thing that people may be thinking about or wondering is, well, I've tried all these things, right. And I still haven't found anything that I liked. And I would say to them, I don't believe you. But let's say for argument's sake that they tried every single activity, I would say that they start with walking. And I think, again, a lot of people underrate walking, but walking is still a fantastic can be so fantastic activity to do. You could throw on a podcast or music or even, you know, watch Netflix and go for a walk. But that's, that's a really good starting point, if there's nothing else out there that you feel like you enjoy. And you can even progressively overload on walking to an extent, right, you can challenge yourself to go farther, you can go faster, you can hop on a treadmill, and just up the incline and start doing treadmill walking. And so I would just say if there's nothing out there at all, and they've tried everything else, just go for a walk right and started going for walks, you know, 30 minutes, maybe three times a week and four times we can build on from there. But the end of the day, you want to be active, right? Our bodies are made to be active. And it's important to be active for a numerous amount of numerous amounts of reasons, but it's just finding out again, one activity is something that you can enjoy for a long period of time. And if once you find that activity, it's life changing, right? And then you'll be doing that activity for the rest of your life. I

Philip Pape 34:30

do. So there's something for everyone when it comes to movement.

Paul Hanton 34:33

I think there's something for everyone. I think there's something for everyone. Yes, he's got to figure out what that is.

Philip Pape 34:38

And the talk of you being in the military and walking makes me want to grab my rucksack because there's another way to load you're walking.

Paul Hanton 34:45

You're absolutely right. Yeah, you could grab a backpack, throw some weight in there and then take off right and hiking and hiking is a great activity as well and truly want to go for hikes and make you can make that challenging. You can make any activity challenging enough. But you're just finding out what works best for you, for me is strength training, right? I fell in love with it on day one. And I see myself doing that doing strength training in some capacity for the rest of my life. And I'm glad I found my my activity or my thing that I like to do and, and then again, once you find that activity, it's life changing, right? It will change your life once you find that activity that you enjoy you want to do for the rest of your life.

Philip Pape 35:26

Yeah, it's about consistency. And guys who are listening, ladies, if you want a great trainer, Paul's your man. And I'm just gonna ask him Paul, where can listeners find out more about you and your work?

Paul Hanton 35:37

Yeah, no, thank you. So I'm on Instagram and Tiktok at Paul fit prime. Again, that's at Paul fit prime. Also check out my podcast, the healthy Fit Life podcast. So on any podcast platform you can think of so. And again, one thank you again for having me on your show. Really appreciate it.

Philip Pape 35:57

Yeah, no apps. Absolutely. Likewise, and I'm gonna add all that info to the show notes, of course, so people can find you. It was fun talking about kind of a different angle. When it comes to mindset, the emotions goals, individuality with training. I think a lot of people listening, you know, wonder where to start and where to go and how to make fun and not making a chore. Right. You just gave them a bunch of great answers. So I appreciate you coming on the show.

Paul Hanton 36:20

Yeah, thank you. Great conversation.

Philip Pape 36:23

Philip Pape 11/29/22 Philip Pape 11/29/22

Ep 34: Speed Up Fat Loss (and Live Longer) without Excessive Dieting or Cardio

What if there was an easy way to speed up fat loss, burn 500 more calories a day (which is 1 extra pound a week), increase your potential lifespan, reduce your chance of disease, all without excessive cardio or dieting?

This is not the next big fitness industry secret but instead one of the easiest, natural, and most effective forms of movement for humans . . . and that is WALKING!

Whether you already “get your steps” or you sit around most of the day behind a desk, we are going to dissect the many benefits of walking, from its ability to burn way more calories than you think, increase your metabolism, improve your overall function in life, preferentially burn fat to improve body composition, reduce mortality, and improve associated markers like blood pressure, resting heart rate, cholesterol, depression, and VO2 max.

Walking is perhaps the most underrated but effective forms of exercise we can incorporate.

Finally, as always on this show, we will discuss easy, actionable strategies for walking effectively that you can start using right away!

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Transcript

Philip Pape 00:08

Philip Pape 00:31

Welcome to another episode of Wits & Weights. This is one of our live streams in the Wits & Weights Facebook community, which you can join absolutely free and get early access to these episodes, free nutrition and training guides, we might start doing some free challenges, and lots of info that members share on strength, fat loss, nutrition, and other topics. So just click the link in the show notes to join our free Facebook group. My name is Philip pape, certified nutrition coach and founder of Wits & Weights. And I do have one small favor to ask that would absolutely make my day and help others find and enjoy this show. And that is simply to go to Apple podcasts and submit a five star rating and review for the podcast. That would be an amazing Christmas gift or holiday gift or just because you love the show gift. And I would forever be grateful. So let's dive into today's episode, which as the title suggests, is all about a very underrated way to reach your goals faster, burn 500 more calories a day or more, which is at least one extra pound a week. Increase your potential lifespan reduce your chance of disease all without excessive cardio or dieting. This is not the next big fitness industry secret. But instead one of the easiest natural, most effective forms of movement for human beings. And that is walking, walking, getting your steps. And whether you already get your steps. Or you sit around most of the day behind the desk, which I'm doing right now to record this podcast. But it's a little better experience than if I weren't. We're gonna dissect the many benefits of walking from its ability to burn away more calories than you think. increase your metabolism, improve your overall function in life, preferentially burn fat to improve body composition, reduce mortality, and improve associated markers like blood pressure, resting heart rate, cholesterol, depression, and VO two max. So walking is perhaps the most underrated but effective forms of exercise we can incorporate. And all my clients can tell you that. And maybe I talk people's ears off about this all the time, but I think it is so important that it's worth it. Finally, as always on the show, we will discuss easy actionable strategies for walking effectively, that you can start using right away. So I'm going to start with a little bit of a personal story. Some of you may have heard this in one of my earlier episodes. But last year in 2021, I was undergoing some severe pain in my left leg. And it was it felt like sciatica, where you have that nerve pinch and the numbness that goes down through your leg all the way to your feet, it was on my left side. And I had in the past a few times experienced kind of a pop in my back, doing just some just bending over and picking something off the floor, or maybe warming up for a squat or something like that. And every time that happened, I'd been in a little bit of back pain, people experience lots of people experience back pain, and it would recover after a few days. So finally, last year, it happened again. And it was just so painful. And it slowly started to get a little bit less painful. But then the pain migrated into my left leg. And eventually I realized that my herniated disk had gotten so bad that it was just severely impinging on my nerve. At the L five s one vertebra. I went and had back surgery that was the the only means left for me at the time. And it basically fixed me the same day where I was able to walk again now part of surgical recovery with something like that where you have back surgery, or hip surgery or anything in that area is to walk right load, load your body, load the tissue, get it moving, prevent scar tissue. I think this is a great approach for most types of recovery. And you have to start to walk to build up that strength again and and get it to heal. Now, I wasn't a big fan of walking for most of my life. My wife could tell you that she loves to walk and she kind of had to drag me out of the house to go on walks. Because I just didn't think walks were like real exercise. You know, I said well, my time is better spent in the gym, or doing something more intense. And you guys probably know I did CrossFit for years. I did it for eight years. I did love it, but there were a lot of aspects to

Philip Pape 05:00

it that kind of held me back from reaching my goals later on in terms of strength and body composition, because of the, the the mode of activity, and we don't have to go into those details. But I never thought of walking is a true form of exercise. And when I had to recover from surgery, all I could do is walk. In fact, I was ecstatic that I could walk because while I was in pain for six weeks before the surgery, I had to lay on my back most of the time, if I tried to stand or walk, it would start to hurt severely within minutes. So now all of a sudden, I like to walk. And I decided to go the other direction and say, What if I just get 12,000 steps a day. And I did that for probably, I think I want to say 70 or 80 days straight. I mean, weekends, you know,

Philip Pape 05:44

even days that I wasn't working out and so on. And it just became a habit. Now I did it just for the purpose of trying to do it. And because I enjoyed it. And I wasn't really realizing what all the other benefits were. And I noticed, for example, it became a lot easier to lose weight, it actually became a little bit harder to gain weight, right, which is kind of the opposite side of the same coin, which is fine. But it became a lot easier to lose weight. And without going into more of a deficit with my food. It also lowered my resting heart rate significantly. I mean, I track my heart rate, I have a ring, I have an Apple Watch. And I could see it dropping, dropping, dropping over about a two month period, because of all the steps I was getting in without anything else changing. Okay, so and those are just a couple of benefits that I personally experienced in the short term. So then I started to research it and learn all about walking. And I became enamored with this idea that something so basic and natural to being human can be so powerful. So let me take this back to the fundamentals of metabolism just briefly. And then we're going to go into some illustrations, we'll talk about the benefits, and then we'll talk about strategies. So I've talked before about metabolism quite a few times. And just for a primer on this, there are four components of metabolism. So metabolism, meaning our metabolic rate, or the number of calories we burn in a given day, the biggest component of our metabolism is going to be our basal metabolic rate. This is, for lack of a better definition, all the calories we burn just for being alive. Okay, and that's like two thirds of your calories. And then there's another 10% or so 10 15% for digesting your food. So the thermic effect of feeding, then there's maybe 5% of our calories are burned through deliberate exercise. Yes, it's that small. It's why we don't rely on exercise for burning calories. That's not the point of of the exercise. And then the rest of it about 15% but potentially a lot more of that pie is meat, non exercise activity, thermogenesis neat non exercise Activity Thermogenesis, which is everything you do to move that you're not doing intentionally, like exercise. You know, that's not exercise. But there's a caveat to that. There's an estrus of footnote, where something like walking, moving around doing yard work, things like that. You're deliberately doing those things. But they're not intense, deliberate exercise. So we still put them in the category of neat. Now there was a study. Now I don't, I'm sorry, I don't have the stuff to top my head, I actually looked all over for it. I've heard, I think it was Brandon Cruz mentioned it many times on his podcast. And it compared three groups, desk workers, shop clerks, and manual laborers. Okay? Or something very similar to that. So I'm kind of paraphrasing, but the result is what's important. And it found that if all other factors were maintained equally, they're difference in daily calorie burn from meat alone, to kg just from meat was 800 more calories a day for shop clerks versus desk workers. And then another 1200 calories beyond that for manual laborers. So the the total gap between the most active and least active produced a 2000 calorie a day difference between the two extremes, okay. And they accounted for everything. They accounted for their size, their fat, free mass, all the other things that we say well, no, but maybe their younger, older, male, female, they accounted for all those things. Okay. And so the point here is that your mode of work of movement of overall activity throughout the day, aside from deliberate exercise, can significantly affect increase your metabolic rate. So let's compare two people just for illustration. And think about which of these two people your life your lifestyle most closely aligns with? And of course, it's gonna be obvious which one I'm prep, which one I am biasing toward here, but I'm going to do it anyway. So you've got Nicole, and you've got Jason. Okay. You I'm sorry if your names are those and this is doesn't sound like you, Nicole parks farther away when she goes to work. She takes the stairs to the third floor of her office building. She goes up and down a few times through the day for lunch and for meetings. Whereas Jason he parks as close to the building as we can. We know the type right when you go, especially when you go to try Christmas shopping and you're trying to find the closest parking spot you can and he takes the elevator all day. So this might result in a difference of 100 calories for Nicole. Nicole uses a stand up desk. She paces on calls when she can. She walks down the hall maybe to the bathroom that's a little bit further down when she takes a break. She's and Jason sits at his desk all day. So that might add up to another couple 100 calories for Nicole. When she gets home. Nicole walks the dog so they have a dog. She might do some housework cooks her own food. Jason on the other hand, orders takeout sits down to watch TV. Another couple 100 Calorie difference. After dinner, Nicole goes for a 30 minute walk with her family or maybe by herself. And Jason continues to watch TV. Another couple 100 calories. When she goes shopping, Nicole parks as far away as she can. She walks between stores. Jason on the other end drives around until he finds the closest spot and then drives between stores, maybe another 1500 calories. So all told, every day, Nicole is burning an extra four to 800 calories, just through non exercise activity. Just from her lifestyle, no excessive cardio. She's not on a diet. Okay, but what is the difference in four to 800 calories? Well, 500 calories is going to burn potentially a pound a week. So if you're trying to lose weight, think about what kind of impact that can make on your ability to eat more calories, or lose weight faster, either one. So let's go through all the benefits of walking, because I think we kind of know it intuitively. And the exponent, the illustration I just gave you is is something we've heard before, but I really want to drill it in and have you understand all the science behind this or all the information. Alright, so the only thing that matters for losing weight. Notice I said losing weight not losing fat. The only thing that matters is energy balance, do you burn more calories than you consume? Okay, so strength training, and protein will definitely ensure you have improved body composition. So you're going to retain muscle in a diet. But what we're talking about here is the fat loss side of the equation. Alright, so we know that losing weight requires an energy deficit, okay. But we also want to make sure that most of that is fat. And where does walking come into all this? Well, first of all, walking can burn almost as many calories for the same distance as running about 80% of those calories. Especially when you're walking briskly, if you walk around four miles an hour for most people, you're going to burn just as almost as many calories as you would running for the same distance. Yes, it takes a little longer, but it's not going to impact your joints, it's not going to impact your recovery, it's not going to wipe you out like running does something you can basically do all day. Walking also can be more enjoyable. And it's accessible to anyone who can walk. Now of course, that's subjective when I say enjoyable, but I would if I took 100 people, I would bet that like 80 of them would say they prefer walking to running. If not more than that. That's just a guess. But I'm guessing that's the case. The other thing, you can get sunlight while you're walking with some vitamin D, you could talk on the phone, you can listen to a podcast, you can do a lot of things while you're walking at the same time because it's a low, low, low velocity activity. Now, as far as the calorie burning, let's dig into that a little bit. Walking can burn two to 400 calories per hour. Okay, so a 20 minute walk, which is like a mile, it's gonna take you 20 minutes after a meal, let's say that's about 2000 steps. So if you can incorporate two or three walks before or after your meals, and do nothing else all day, you're going to get four to 6000 steps. And then you can get the rest of your steps through non planned walking, or other activities we're going to talk about later. And then you can aim for a total of around eight to 10,000 steps. So the whole 10,000 steps. sweetspot is a pretty good marker. We'll see a little bit later that somewhere around 7500 steps is kind of the threshold for reducing your risk of all cause mortality. Alright, so I'm getting off on a tangent here. But if you can get around these extra steps four to 6008 to 10,000. In that range, you're gonna burn about 500 more calories per day, contributing to an extra pound of weight loss as we mentioned before. Now what this does does is it shifts up your calories that you burn every day. So that if you're dieting, you can stay at the same amount of calories and lose weight faster, or you can keep the same deficit, but you're actually eating more to stay in that deficit, right. Because if you're burning 500 more calories a day, technically, you could eat 500 calories more per day, and continue to lose at the same rate. Now, we're not doing this just to eat back our activity. I think of it more the other way around that if we incorporate the habit of walking, then it just overall shifts our metabolism up so that when we're ready to go into fat loss phase, we never really get down to some very restrictive level of calories. And what what does that do? Well, that means you can eat more variety of food, you can enjoy some more treats, you can go out with, you know, friends and family on the weekend and not feel like you're restricting, and on and on and on. Okay, and when we talk about sustainability and lifestyle integration, and all the things that that I do with my clients, that's that's the principle we're talking about. So what else, a study by Ross at all, which I actually covered in Episode 29, one of the science says episodes that I've done, it showed that more of the weight lost through cardio, like brisk walking is fat than that loss through a calorie deficit. Meaning if you lose the same amount of weight walking, as you do dieting, you're the there's going to be more percentage of that weight lost from fat from the walking than from the dieting. And there's some logic to this, in that if you walk, but you still eat more food, you've got all that energy coming in to fuel yourself. And it would make sense that now you can hold on to more muscle and not and lose more fat. Whereas if you only use dieting as your mechanism of fat loss, you are still depriving your muscles a bit of all the energy that they need, and you're going to lose some muscle. Now, if I recall from that study, it was untrained individuals. So if you're training, the percentages get more favorable toward losing fat, because you're giving yourself the training signal to hold on to muscle. But either way, the idea here is we can use walking to speed up fat loss without having to increase our deficit. And tada, that's the beginning of the title of this episode is speeding up fat loss. So adding in steps every day increases your metabolism. And on a diet, it speeds up fat loss. Okay, continuing on walking is also very low stress. And it has been even shown to speed up recovery. Whereas other modes of cardio can impede recovery and cause muscle damage and things like that. Walking is so low stress, it's like your body doesn't even know just kind of slowly burns those calories as you do it. And it doesn't have a negative impact on recovery. So it doesn't contribute to overtraining. It doesn't contribute to interference with your strength training. So the reason it doesn't interfere with that I think I just mentioned it doesn't fatigue, the same muscles that you're using during your workouts, because it's so low impact. Okay, and the only other forms of cardio I can think that are like that would be East centric, or I'm sorry, concentric only movements. For example, like pushing a prowler sled or biking. For example, biking is mainly concentric, so it's not going to damage or fatigue the muscles in the same way. But if you do it too intensely, you can still do that. Walking, it's very hard to do too intensely, until you do it intense enough where then it becomes a jog or run. Walking also. So this is interesting walking does not deplete your glycogen stores. Whereas other higher intensity forms of cardio do. In fact, we talk about glycolytic modes of training like high intensity training, interval training, CrossFit, gymnastics, or you know, intense cardio, which deplete your glycogen stores, which is why we like to eat more carbs for those things. But if you're walking, it doesn't deplete those. So this leaves more in the tank for performance during strength training. So in that sense, replacing some of your cardio with walking could also help with your strength training. Okay, continuing on, I've got a lot of information here. So I hope you're absorbing all this and you know, if you have to watch if you have to listen or watch again, please do this is good information. Walking seems to be associated with improved cognitive ability. So just think about when you sit around all day, think about your mental energy, your memory, your motivation, how they kind of get sucked dry, you know, like an energy vampire. And if you know the reference, when you're sitting around all day, and walking has the opposite effect kind of boosts you up gives you a better mood. It just overall changes the trajectory of your day. You're just a more active person. Well Walking may improve your posture, or at least it prevents you from slouching, because you're not sitting. And slouching, as we know can affect your breathing and place load on your neck and fatigue because of the giant head that we have up here kind of, you know, tilting forward. Now, perhaps most importantly, according to a meta analysis and 2021, by genetic J Yeti at all. And there's a great article on stronger by science that breaks this down, the rate of all cause mortality decreases by 12% for every 1000 steps per day. Now, this is a correlation, not a causation. Okay, this is a meta analysis of a bunch of studies. And it's a correlation. But there have been studies of interventions, where they got people to actually walk more, and they compared the group that walked more to the group that walked less, that lead to quote, this is from the stronger by science article, quote, a significant decreases in systolic blood pressure, diastolic blood pressure, resting heart rate, body fat percentage, body mass index, total cholesterol, and depression scores, while increasing view to max six minute walk distance, and the score on the SF 36. physical functioning, inventory and quote, conversely, being sedentary may be a larger risk factor for all cause mortality than either obesity, or smoking. And this is where the phrase sitting is the new smoking probably comes from. So I want to be crystal clear that there is just nothing, nothing that is more effective, not even. And you're gonna be shocked to hear me say this strength training or diet for helping you live longer than moving more than walking and getting steps. And it's arguably the easiest, most successful way to do that is is walking. So I assume I assume that I've convinced you of the benefits. And I didn't want this to meet just one long drawn info session. So now let's talk action.

Philip Pape 22:08

Hey, this is Philip pape, letting you know that applications are now open for one on one coaching. If you're a busy working professional, who has tried dieting, and exercising for years, with little in the way of results, and you want to lose fat, get lean or feel confident in your body without excessive dieting, cardio or restrictions, just go to wits & weights.com/coaching, to apply. So What strategies can we use to increase our walking in our step count? Alright, so before we talk about the things that you do, let's plan for success. Let's tell ourselves, okay, we are going to be a walking machine. Because this is going to not only save our lives, this is going to make us thrive, and have optimal health. And we're going to live long, and just be the best bad version of ourselves. So we need to set things up for success. So the first thing is to plan it into our day, right? Aim for at least 30 minutes somewhere that you can deliberately walk closer to 60 If you can do it. But overall, if it adds up to about 30 to 60 minutes, you're in good territory, okay, and this will help you speed up your fat loss significantly as well if you're in a diet. The second thing is think about your speed and kind of be mindful of how fast you're going to walk. Because especially if you're listening to a podcast like Wits, & Weights, or music, you might get distracted and slow down and not walk as fast as you want. And walking faster has a couple of benefits. First of all, it saves time, in terms of burning the same amount of calories and a fewer amount of time. But it also burns more calories per mile the faster you go. Unlike running like basically was running, the faster you go the same calories per mile you burn you just do it faster. With walking, it actually is a exponential curve, the faster your speed. So if you go from three to four miles an hour, the more calories you will burn per mile, and you're gonna do it shorter. So it's kind of a double benefit. So keep that in mind. So and plan for brisk walks if that's what you need to do, from an efficiency standpoint, okay, shoes, wear comfortable shoes. I'm not going to tell you brands or types because this is totally different for everybody. Some people might want to go barefoot, you know, there, it's really your preference. Find something that works and think about it consciously. Don't just throw on whatever you have laying around. And then of course, you start complaining because you get blisters or sore feet or whatever, and then you don't like walking. So think about your shoes. Then use a wearable tracking device. Okay, the simplest thing honestly, is just your phone that you already have if you throw it in your pocket, it's it tracks steps reasonably well. Okay, so that's like the zero cost options since everybody has a smartphone. But the wearables like the Apple Watch or the Fitbit Garmin the aura ring There's so many things all the major brands are perfectly fine for tracking steps in heart rate. We don't use them to track calories burned. They're totally useless and completely inaccurate for that no matter what device you're talking about the the science is in on that and very clear. So we're only using them for step count, and heart rate if you need it for that. Okay. The next thing in terms of thinking ahead and planning is a mindset thing. We don't want to let the temperature or weather be an excuse. Okay, now I live in New England. So I understand cold weather. I understand rainy, cold, drizzly miserable winter weather. And yet, I tried to get out there, no matter what if I'm going to get some vitamin D, and I want to enjoy nature and get some fresh air. Who cares? Go out there. And there's a concept in Denmark, it's a Danish concept called, I think this is how you pronounce it. He hy GGE. He again, correct me if I'm wrong, but and what it is, is embracing the cold by preparing for it and embracing coziness when you can. So what this might look like is when you're going to go outside, just dress for a dress and all the layers even wear thermal underwear if you have extra socks, whatever, so that you're super comfortable when you're walking. And it's I'm not gonna say it's like walking in the summer. But hey, you've prepared you're wearing gloves, you're wearing a hat. When stuff on your ears, whatever keeps you nice and warm, you get your walk in and then when you get home, you relax a little bit, have a cozy cup of coffee or tea, get near a fire, wrap yourself in a blanket, some other small indulgence, once you're inside, instead of complaining how cold it is, right? Because we're human beings we we used to live out in these harsh conditions and people some people still do. So just enjoy. Don't use that as an excuse. If it's raining outside, you can wear a raincoat or embrace the fresh raindrops you know in that nice smell of fresh raindrops pelting your skin. Enjoy that natural sensation of being human. I don't know to me, this is thriving this as being human right? Like let's embrace nature and everything around us. The point is you can walk inside or outside and just about any condition, if you plan for it, and you approach it with the right attitude, right. Okay, that's mindset. Now, if you're still listening to me, you're still watching this video. This is the good part we get to where we talk about the exact things you can incorporate into your day. And you can do any combination of these that fits within your lifestyle, you can get creative, come up with some of your own. But I'm going to give you a pretty good comprehensive list here. Alright, if you're ready, here we go. The first one, simple, planned in walks. And this is just looking at your day, just like you would plan your meals and planning in your walk. So you might put it on your calendar, you might create a reminder in your smartphone, you might do what's called habit stacking, where you take a thing that you already do, and then walk while doing that thing. And that thing might be it might be listening to a podcast, right? It might be talking on a phone call. It might just be when the time at the end of the day when you're kind of wiped out from the day and you want to just relax and scroll social media or read an article or something. Do it while walking around. Just walk very slowly around the house. And it can add up it can add up to 1000 2000 steps before you know it. So plan in your walks. Now, specifically walking after a meal could be helpful. Okay, I think I heard again, I'm mentioning Brandon Cruz. He's got great stuff. On his podcast, I think he said that walking after meals, especially high carb meals is twice effective as Metformin is the name of the drug. It's like the top prescribe medicine for type two diabetics, it controls blood sugar. And walking after a meal is basically more effective than that. It increases insulin sensitivity. It helps with nutrient partitioning. Basically just fancy way of saying it helps you your blood sugar control and could help with fat loss. But the most important thing is walking when you can walk. But if you have a choice, walking after meal might be something to try especially if you're trying to lose fat. All right, going for a walk with your family making it a social affair. Right if you have spouse, kids, siblings, whatever at home, get them in on the get them in on the fun, right? Go for a walk, have a social time, that could be your time to chat and connect. Because it's so hard these days to connect you even when we if we have dinner together. People are in a rush or not everybody gets to talk or you know you might be distracted trying to get a look at your phone. We all know what I'm talking about. So family Walk is a way to go outside, maybe hold hands, look at the sun and just chat and get your steps in.

Philip Pape 29:53

Kind of related to this but more maybe in the working world. If you work in an office you could ask someone to walk with you for a conversation You should. And if you're a boss of someone, you know, they don't have a choice. There you go. You just say, hey, you know, let's go have a talk. But can you save that for the fun conversations, okay. And if you need to brainstorm with somebody, if you're an engineer, if you're whatever the owner small business, if you're an entrepreneur, and you want to brainstorm, say, Hey, let's go for a walk or walk down the hallway and get 500 steps in while you're chatting and get the mental juices flowing. The next one is when you do walk outside, go into a specific go on hikes. So I'm trying to say, go on hikes, go find a trail, or a nice park or a lake or even if you're in the city, there might be really nice walking spots. And just enjoy the beauty of nature, people walking, maybe get an extra challenge, because of the difficulty of the hike. If there's some climbs, you know, some elevation change, and mix it up. All right, so for people working at home, or we'll have this option in the office, a stand up desk, and or an under desk treadmill. So the standup desk is more accessible for people, you could either get the full desk that has a motor in it, or you can get a small desktop accessory or attachment. Usually they're hydraulic, but some of them are manual, or it could be just a box where you put your laptop on it. As long as it's kind of in an ergonomic setup, you know, I would encourage you to make sure everything is set up properly, so you don't introduce some other health issues, and stand up most of the day and alternate between sitting and walking around. Just standing up versus sitting can burn something like I want to say an extra 30 calories an hour, something like that, don't quote me on it, but it's meaningful, you know, for a whole day, it could be a few 100 calories just from having a standup desk. Similarly, an under desk treadmill, that's more of a luxury, and probably only something you have at home, because it's a liability in most offices, unless you're lucky. And this is the kind of treadmill where you can walk at around two to three miles an hour while you're typing and doing your work. A treadmill at home is another idea just having a treadmill in your home as a machine in your home gym. Or when you go to the gym using the treadmill there and just tacking it on your workout or going on your off day. And the nice thing about a treadmill is, of course you're not in the that terrible weather we just talked about outside, it's reliable. But also you can use an incline, okay, and an incline can give you a little calf work, increase the calorie burn, make it a little bit more difficult, but still not really give you many recovery issues or

Philip Pape 32:35

in the intensity or muscle damage you're gonna get from other forms of cardio. Okay, the next one is pacing. Pacing is really big. So if you work from home or in an office, no doubt you have a chance to be on phone calls, or to be checking your emails from your phone, or listening to some training or a podcast or something in the context of work or your personal life. Go ahead and pace. And I want you to think about that think about all the times throughout the day, where if you don't have have to be attached to a keyboard and a screen. But can can be floating around even if you're on a device. Think about all the opportunities you have to pace, okay, there might be more than you think. And the pacing really does add up, it adds up a lot. Another time. Another thing that where I like to pace is if I'm going to be giving a seminar, big presentation or speech or if I'm going to have like a really important phone call. And I'm kind of nervous about what I'm going to say. I paced around the house as I practice. So if you are you in those environment, if you're in that context, or you're an entrepreneur or something or manager, leader, etc pace around the house, when you practice your speaking, okay. Another thing is when you're shopping Park farther from the store, I know you've heard this a million times. But do you do it? Or do you just think like are you just trained to get as close as you can because it's convenient. Well, today or tomorrow, because it's late at night, tomorrow. When you go to the store the next day, literally parked in the farthest parking spot you can like just the way far end of the grocery store. Now this is like a Walmart or a grocery store with a huge parking lot. Same Same thing applies it gives you even more chance for steps. Park as far away as you can give it a shot and do that every time until it becomes a habit. You're like this is just what I do when I go to a store I park in the last spot and then I get to walk get to enjoy the weather. Maybe it's raining maybe it's cold and snowy doesn't matter. The other thing is anytime you have the chance to walk instead of drive where it's a reasonable distance, do it right. One context for that would be if you go to like a strip mall, and you have to shop and then there's another store like 10 stores down. That's like a quarter mile away because it's such a big strip mall. Just walk and then you get to walk back and you have to walk to your car so you can add a ton of steps. Taking the stairs. Oh, okay, this is one we've heard for a long time but it is also a huge difference now stairs. The cool thing about stair or like a Stairmaster machine, or biking or pushing a sled. They're all concentric motions only with your muscles, meaning you're using your quads and hams and everything. But only in the concentric pushing motion, you're pushing up the stairs, except on the way down, but honestly, carrying your body weight is negligible on your, on your muscles. So you're taking the stairs. So you can you can even run up if you want to, you know, rocky style. And it's not going to really make you sore. But it'll give you a little bit of extra leg workout. And it'll give you steps. Okay, what about play engaging in play? And what do I mean by this? Well, it definitely could mean as an adult, it could be in sports, but sports gets into the realm of a more intense interference level of cardio and activity, I'm referring to playing with your kids or horseplay, or just kind of being outside, you know, when you're gonna cook out and being playful. I mean, I guess is the lack of a better term, like acting young, and kind of hopping around, skipping around, you know, doing things with movement and intention, rather than just sitting in one spot, are standing in one spot. So again, if you have kids, or grandkids or nieces or nephews or something where you have that opportunity, then I literally do mean play, because you'll be in motion. But there's other opportunities as adults to engage in play as well. And hey, just just a number, right, we're all trying to be young at heart. The next one is doing housework and doing yard work. So housework could be vacuuming and cleaning and things like that. All the things we love to do, right, all your chores, but, but then you can throw in some extra difficulty by for example, intentionally going up and down between floors, instead of taking the efficient route to your housework. Now it'll take longer, but hey, throw on a podcast, right? Do the habit stacking we talked about, make it enjoyable. Same thing with yard work, do yard work by hand. I mean, if you've got a huge lawn, you have to mow it with a tractor. That's one thing. But if there's gardening or some trimming, or weed whacking stuff like that, do it by hand. Again, you can have it, stack it with listening to music, and get some get some activity in that way. Now, if it's very rigorous yard work, again, that goes more into a recovery interfering mode of activity, but I think you get the idea by now. All right, and then I have two more bonuses to throw in before I conclude. Because this this episode is actually more detailed than I expected it to be. Hopefully, you're enjoying it. And the first one is, if you want your walking to be more difficult, you can add load by using a rucksack or a vest. Okay, so a vest with weights, or rucksack, like a backpack, where you can throw in some weighted plates, or even just some disk weights and add in, you know, for women, maybe it's 1520 pounds. For men, it's like 2530 pounds. And this gives you a little extra muscle burn in the traps, maybe in the legs, a little extra impact on your joints, but not nearly as much as running. And it will burn more calories in the same amount of time, give you a little extra challenge. And it's actually a nice skill to have if you're going to go camping, or have to lug things around camping or hiking or so on. So that's one adding load. The second thing that I wanted to throw in here, actually just off the top of my head is progressing your walks. So if you want to look at walks as an exercise that you track, there are different things you can progress, you can progress your speed. So start off at two and a half miles an hour for the first week. Then the next week, try you know 2.75 The next week, try three then 3.25 You know what I mean up the speed. And if you're using a wearable device, you can see your average speed. And that's a way to progress your walks kind of like we progress our weights in the gym. Another way is to progress the length. So start at 10 minutes, then go up to 15 minutes and 20 minutes, or you know a mile mile and a half to two miles you get the idea makes it more interesting. You can track this if this is your thing to make it fun. And then the last little bonus is try combining caffeine. So like a couple black coffee in the morning with fasted walking before you've eaten. And see if you respond any better in terms of fat loss, like keep all the other variables controlled, and add in caffeine with fasted walking. There are other supplements you could use instead of caffeine, but I don't want to go there. I want to keep it simple here. Just more or less natural stuff. Caffeine and fasted walking, there's a little bit of evidence that indicates could help with fat loss. Just because it increases your metabolic rate a little more than just the walking alone. Okay, that's everything I can think of for walking. This was the walking episode, which I want to thank Michelle Clark fellow coach for giving me the idea to run with this topic. Because I talk about it all it's time, but I hadn't really dived into it on my podcast in detail. So thank you, Michelle, I'm sure you as the listener viewer can get creative and come up with other ways to incorporate more movement into your life than what I've said here. Just take it one day, one week at a time, build up your capacity, develop those habits, and you will find fat loss much easier. And because you're going to live longer, you'll thank yourself decades from now. So one last thing, if you've been struggling to lose fat, or improve your body composition, and you love the idea of walking, but you feel that there's more to the puzzle, especially for your specific case. And you need some guidance and accountability. Just reach out to me to chat about one on one nutrition coaching. Okay, you're going to become the center of my attention during the six month program, because I'm going to work with you on eliminating stressors from your life, increasing your metabolism, like with walking, but many other things, training, moving the right way getting the results that you may have struggled to achieve for a long time. So I covered a lot of material today. And if you are interested in coaching, or learning more DM me on Instagram, at Wits & Weights or Facebook, or go to wits & weights.com/coaching, to learn more about that side of what I do, and I will get back to you to see if we're a good fit or to answer your question or whatever reason you reach out to me. I also want to remind you, I do have a guarantee in my coaching. If you don't achieve your goal by the end of six months, I'm going to work with you for free until you do. And that's me demonstrating to you how confident I am in this science backed approach that we take when working together. Again, just DM me on Instagram at Wits & Weights or Facebook or go to wits & weights.com/coaching. If this episode on walking was helpful or you have questions, comments on the video, click the link in the show notes or go to wits & weights.com and look for the Ask Philip section on the homepage. And I will get back to you with an answer very quickly. Thank you again for being a loyal listener, and I'll talk to you next time. Stay strong. Thanks for listening to the show. Before you go, I have a quick favor to ask. If you enjoy the podcast. Let me know by leaving a five star review in Apple podcasts and telling others about the show. Thanks again for joining me Philip Pape in this episode of Wits & Weights. I'll see you next time and stay strong

Philip Pape 11/22/22 Philip Pape 11/22/22

Ep 33: Sustainable Weight Loss, Emotional Awareness, and the Dieting Mindset with Paul Salter

Joining me on the show today is Paul Salter, a Registered Dietitian (RD) and Sustainable Weight Loss Expert. Since 2013, he’s personally coached over 1,500 women to lose 20 pounds or more and KEEP IT OFF (without feeling like they're dieting). He’s done so by taking an inside-out approach that focuses on cultivating feelings of self-love and self-worth from day one—not after weight is lost—and by paying much more attention to one’s mindset and emotional intelligence, in addition to the nutritional Xs and Os.

Joining me on the show today is Paul Salter, a Registered Dietitian (RD) and Sustainable Weight Loss Expert. Since 2013, he’s personally coached over 1,500 women to lose 20 pounds or more and KEEP IT OFF (without feeling like they're dieting).

He’s done so by taking an inside-out approach that focuses on cultivating feelings of self-love and self-worth from day one—not after weight is lost—and by paying much more attention to one’s mindset and emotional intelligence, in addition to the nutritional Xs and Os.

He’s a twice published Author, host of The 5% Way Podcast (make sure to subscribe), and Founder and Head Coach of The 5% Community.

Topics discussed in this episode:

Sustainable weight loss and why it's difficult for most people
The role of self-talk in achieving sustainable weight loss
The role of emotional intelligence in sustainable weight loss
Self-talk / identity / transformational model of change
Prioritizing self-love
Where to begin with "deep work"
An example of a "destructive and self-sabotaging pattern"
Cultivating more intentionality to transform your relationship with food
Your thoughts on willpower and discipline
Your thoughts on "good vs. bad" foods
The value of the pre-diet maintenance phase
Weight loss as a goal vs. body composition (adding muscle)
Going on your own vs. hiring a coach

RELATED LINKS

Subscribe to The 5% Way podcast
Visit Paul's website at thefivepercentway.com
Join The 5% Community
Find Paul on Instagram
Watch the episode on video here

👉 If you have any questions, just click here.

👨‍💻 HOSTED BY

Philip Pape of Wits & Weights (Instagram 👉 @witsandweights)

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Transcript

Philip Pape 00:08

Paul Salter 01:16

Philip, thank you, as we were just talking about before we hit that big record button, really looking forward to sharing some great conversation because of how aligned our values and beliefs are. So thank you for having me.

Philip Pape 01:27

Yeah. And I'm really excited to see what we talked about today. And I hope to learn a lot and hope the listeners want a lot. So I've been listening to your show, I think it's good stuff. Why don't we start at the high level here. Tell us about your background in nutrition. I know you're a registered dietitian as well, and sustainable weight loss specifically.

Paul Salter 01:44

Yeah, so that story requires us going back in time quite a little bit. So I've been a registered dietician for nearly 10 years at this point. And my early work as a dietitian actually began specifically working with those who were on the brink of bariatric weight loss surgery. And my role in that outpatient clinic was to either help those who are on the decision fence, if you will make some of the emotional and mindset changes to avoid surgery altogether, which was a bit would be a great outcome, or should they have chosen to follow through with the surgery, make sure that you know the surgery is only going to do so much they still have to make behavioral and lifestyle changes. So make sure they were in fact mentally emotionally prepared as well as nutritionally because there are several new limitations and guidelines in place when you have you know, half of your stomach removed or some other variation of the bariatric surgery. And that proved to be a truly, you know, instrumental experiences in my life when it came to helping me understand through the guidance of wonderful mentors, how to really work with someone in a one on one intimate setting, you know how to candidly yet kindly speak to them to provide education yet also hold them accountable, accountable, to make sure make sure they follow through on their promises and commitments. But all great things must come to an end. And I found myself you know, a couple years later on the absolute opposite end of the spectrum, working closely with elite college professional and Olympic athletes helping them to maximize performance, of course, recovery, body composition and their relationship with food. And I had an absolute blast doing this except I realized working 75 hours or so every week was not my jam was not a sustainable approach for just how I wanted to live life, which is when I began to go off on my own but it was during both of these experiences, I was simultaneously using myself as a guinea pig. So during the job working with the athletes, I was simultaneously completing my master's degree in exercise and nutrition sciences, I was already a twice competitive, Natural Bodybuilding participant as well. And just continuing like I said, every piece of information I learned I would apply to myself, I was fascinated with human performance what the body was capable of when you make the correct diet or exercise modifications to achieve a desired outcome. And it was through this body building experience for me that I developed a love hate relationship or marriage with my fitness pal. I was meticulously meticulously and obsessively beginning to track my food, skipping out on social occasions, missing out on holiday foods and favorite meals treats all the above and quickly found myself in a position in which I had an unhealthy relationship with food and was like oh shit, this is not a way to live life. So, you know, candidly, I was never someone who struggled with my weight growing up or at any time during my adulthood. But I have so much compassion and relatability when it comes to being ruled by food, rather than letting me be in charge of dictating how I navigate social occasions, food choices, et cetera. And that was something that really continued to push me in the direction of learning more outside of nutrition in X's and O's, I knew there was an emotional component, I knew there was a mental component. And at that time, I very much struggled to see where I was coming up short or deficient in information. But the more I push forward and acquire that information, I was able to get myself out of that position to a place in which today I don't track or measure my food using the food scale, unless I really, really want to eyeball freely, I eat whatever I want, whenever I want and navigate social occasions with ease. And I've been able to take what I've learned, and now have a just a wonderful opportunity to serve women from not only the nutritional X's and O's standpoint, but really to pour into them from an emotional and psychological perspective to help rebuild their relationship with food, fall in love with themselves again, while simultaneously rebuilding their foundational eating habits. And that's what I've had the pleasure of doing for a couple of years now. Well, so

Philip Pape 05:53

there you have a great story, it sounds like, of course, you had the credentials in your work with the athletes you came from. There was a medical component to it. Bodybuilding, we can go off and talk talk about that for. But the the fact that you came to it from a different perspective, right, a lot of people maybe struggle with weight, you didn't struggle with weight, but you struggle with the mindset and emotional components of eating, which, you know, plenty of people have success losing weight, it's the keeping it off part. And it's the losing it in the right way. And the big word sustainability, which again, you and I are completely aligned on that, that the X's and O's are, what 5% of the equation 10% The equation. And the rest is, is everything else. So let's talk about that. Everything else? Let's start by, you know, before we get into the steps people take, what do we mean by sustainable? You know, we throw that word around. What do we mean by sustainable weight loss? And why is it so difficult for the vast majority of people?

Paul Salter 06:47

Yes, I mean, you know, some of the recent research suggests that the average American diets four times per year, and we all know how, how it feels or what it looks like to diet hop and start that new diet every other Monday. So it seems and if we take a big step back and look at dieting for what it really is, dieting is a major physiological, emotional and psychological stressor. And if we continue to subject ourselves to that experience a week or month after month, not only does weight loss actually become harder, but we end up regressing taking multiple steps backwards, because we're just constantly under this threat of stress our biology, our nervous system doesn't want anything to do with it. So when we talk about sustainable weight loss, we mean being able to achieve a weight loss of 1020 30 pounds, whatever your personal goal is, and no longer feel the need to irrationally approach these rash decisions related to your food choices, restricting different choices, the times you eat whatever extreme approach it may be in order to maintain that weight on the scale, or further lose it. But the problem is, we are a culture a society who is conditioned to want results yesterday, and weight loss is sexy, I mean, the number going down on the scale provides a huge hit of dopamine, we're feeling good, we're seeing results in the mirror. Contrast that with weight maintenance, and we don't want to see the number go down or up. That's really boring. It's it's really boring. And what we have to understand, which is much easier said than done is that all success and all aspects of life can be traced back to consistency and simplicity, while falling in love with monotony. That is the absolute opposite of what we are wired to seek out, we want excitement, we want the highs and lows, the sexiness and the adventure. And wait maintenance has absolutely none of that. So it doesn't sell. Therefore, it's a lot less likely to want to seek it. And even more, a lot less likely to actually want to do some of the deeper work looking inward into our self talk our self love our beliefs, to be able to get out of our own way and actually achieve those sustainable results.

Philip Pape 08:56

Yeah, so I'm trying to remember what you said there, but it's consistency and simplicity while falling in love with monotony. And maybe another way to put that is you know, falling in love with the process. And taking that day to day step and not worrying so much about the results which are gonna come and I love that approach, too. Because Because weight loss is sexy, and even the term weight loss. Some of us cringe a little bit because at the end of the day, we're I think we're focused more on body composition and fat loss. But you know, we have to talk the language that people understand to begin that conversation. So you mentioned self talk then, and what is what is that idea in general? What is its influence on your thoughts, your actions and the ultimate result of what we're trying to do? And what role does it play in sustainable weight loss?

Paul Salter 09:43

Great question. So I'm a big believer, and I think you'd agree all of our success starts and in the mind, and you know, one of the methodologies of transformational change that I teach, you know, in our 5% community is this very loosely labeled needs a much better name, but what it is right now is this have talked to identity transformational model of change that basically practices that our self talk and our word choice influences our thoughts and our beliefs which influence our actions or inactions which influence our results, our identity and our reality. It's a very downstream ripple effect. But it all starts with our self talk in our word choice. And if we are constantly, you know, repeating phrases such as I'm fat, or always be fat, I suck, I'm a failure, you know, those words carry such strong emotion. And emotion is just simply energy in motion. So we're transmitting this negative energy into our thoughts, you know, we have, you know, 10s of 1000s of thoughts every single day, the majority of them are the same thoughts we had yesterday, and even more of them are just negative thoughts. So we're just reinforcing this flow of negative energy down that downstream effect example I just shared. So negative energy pours into our beliefs, if we continue to tell ourselves, we'll never look this way, or wear this this size, or weigh this much, we begin to believe that about ourselves. And that strong belief is simply a thought anchored with intense energy, it begins to bleed into our action. So no longer are we doing the things we're supposed to, to achieve those goals we supposedly have. And it just as you can imagine, snowballs into the results that we really, really want. But our personal results don't reflect that because we're speaking so negatively to ourselves. And I have found time and time and again, you know, when diving deep with clients and community members, that their lack of results, or the stories that they're currently telling themselves, both consciously and subconsciously, can all be traced back to how they're speaking in themselves, they're not giving themselves grace, they're not giving themselves patience, they're not speaking to themselves as if they were speaking to a child or a loved one, we are always our harshest critic. And our inner critic can be incredibly nasty and cruel. More often than not, we have got to bring awareness to that and start making positive change. They're planting that seed of positivity.

Philip Pape 12:03

Now, there's self talk, I mean, if we trace it back in time to an individual person's life, like, and I was thinking about this the other day, how I used to think, Okay, I it is what it is, maybe it's my genetics, I'm never gonna achieve the results I'm gonna get or I'm a fat kid, or whatever the self talk is. And I suspect a lot of that comes from just the self training and the the lack of results that we've had over the years. How much of that do we do we care about? Or do you explore in terms of the ultimate root cause? Or does it really matter as much as just what do we do going forward?

Paul Salter 12:37

No, you're absolutely right. Our identity is based on all of our past experiences. So if we now work backwards from that model, I briefly described all of that identity results, actions, beliefs, thoughts, and self talk, all goes back to our childhood. And you know, between ages of zero to seven, you know, a lot of the latest research suggests that about 95% of our belief system is formed, we're incredibly malleable and sponge like during that period. And as crazy as it sounds in our Adult Day present hood, our unkind self talk are those terrible limiting beliefs at once they served us, they protected us in some capacity. So for if we kind of carry on with this example of weight loss of you know, I'll never weigh this much, I'll always be this way. It's a way of protecting us our ego, keeping us in our comfort zone, because you and I both know, in order to achieve those drastically different results, we might have to make some drastically different changes, that change is uncomfortable. It's a threat. It's scary compared to our status quo. So our ego, kind of devil on one shoulder age on the other, it feeds that negative self talk in to convince us to just stay put and hanging out where we're comfortable in this for this familiar territory.

Philip Pape 13:43

Yeah, the status quo. It's like the cost of change versus the cost of staying the same. And trying to weigh the two. I was just reading a novel seems totally unrelated, but in the novel that talked about hope and and that when you give somebody hope the only two paths are salvation or damnation. I wonder if it's a similar concept of, you know, people don't want to allow themselves to have that hope. Because if it doesn't come to fruition, like all the times in the past, then it's just going to lead down a darker path. So I don't know maybe it's getting a little profound, but it's tied into your emotions here. And what is the role then of I think this is emotional intelligence we're talking about of developing the awareness and implementing a different self talk or a different way of talking to ourselves or self love and managing our emotions. So what what is the role of that?

Paul Salter 14:32

Yeah, so I like to describe emotional intelligence that's just simply your emotional awareness and then your emotional management because at the end of the day here you know stripped amongst our bones and flesh we're just energy into our being is energy and you know, emotion is energy in motion. And behind all of our grandiose scale goals are I want to wear this size or look this way. Yes, we probably do want all of those but they're all surface level bullshit goals. What We really want is a collection of feelings. And I'm sure you've come across this when you work with clients, they tell you, Oh, I want to weigh this much on the scale because I waited at this age and I felt a, b and c. And it's like, boom, screw the scale number. It's what did you feel? Well, you know, I've asked this question probably almost 1000 times. So women, it's like, I want to feel confident, I want to feel strong, healthy, sexy, in control, energetic. And if we can get really clear on the feelings that we are seeking, what that does is it creates an opportunity, or an opportunity for us to kind of reverse engineer our steps to take the most effective and efficient action steps and to align them appropriately to bring about those feelings. And we both know that we're very emotional beings and food, we live in a food centric culture, food and emotions go hand in hand, it's like you can't have one without the other, whether it's the high grade emotions or the down negative emotion. So when we circle back now to connecting the dots with emotional intelligence, it's starting to just step A, if you will, is what is what is my awareness about my emotional state, what is what are my emotions, when I'm speaking unkindly to myself, when I'm eating foods that I know don't help me feel the best. And as we gain more awareness of the pattern, the predominant emotion two or three of them, that is the consistent theme in our life. And we are also simultaneously working on gaining clarity on how we wish to feel, it becomes very apparent where the disconnect is, and the more awareness we have of our predominant emotional states. And also, the more awareness we have on how we want to feel, we can now begin to take action steps in favor of helping us get to how we want to feel that pulls us away from how we currently feel.

Philip Pape 16:42

And is there a process you go through with clients to identify those to identify what you feel now versus what you want to feel? Yeah, so

Paul Salter 16:50

I always like to start with the positive, like, how do you want to feel waking up every day and I encouraged you know, give me three to five adjectives. Hell, if you're on a roll, kind of word, vomit, 10 adjectives and then we'll work backwards and filter them down to the top three, or five. So we'll get really clear there. And, you know, Ed, my lead, I don't know if you're familiar with him. And he has a new book out called, I think it's called The Power of One more, but he describes this concept of like, living in an emotional house, we all have emotions that we come back to consciously and subconsciously, whether it's anxiety and worry, it's pain, it's frustration, again, that can be traced back to our childhood, how we were raised, what emotions kept us safe back then. And he does a really good job articulating that we need to be able to identify what emotions do we typically come back to. So for example, I grew up with a lot of limiting beliefs around money, financial scarcity, for one, scarcity for one reason or another. And through a lot of work, you know, working with a therapist for for many years, I've been able to identify that a lot of my self sabotaging behaviors, when things are really good, knock me back a step back to that familiar territory of financial scarcity or financial anxiety. And as we just sit in plenty of silence solitude with prompts like some of the ones I'm sharing, were ultimately able to see that theme, like What emotions do I predominantly feel? Or do some of my actions lead me back to and again, it just comes through time, and through awareness, and really just having that top of mind like, what emotional state of my living in and as we begin to think and open our eyes to that more and more, we get the clarity of like, Oh, crap, it's anxiety. It's guilt. It's frustration, it's shame. And with awareness comes the opportunity to take action to move forward.

Philip Pape 18:29

And and that taking action and moving forward. I believe that's what you talk about with acceptance or the concept of self love. Is that Is that something we want to prioritize?

Paul Salter 18:40

Absolutely, you know, that the diet industry has kind of conditioned us Oh, you love yourself, love your body. When you weigh this much, or you wear this this size clothes, no women get the get the brunt of it. It's terrible. But men and men are exposed to it, you know, almost equal amounts. And I think it's asked backwards, like, why not love yourself now, because what we're doing if we can constantly and consistently find things we love about ourselves, or practice gratitude, or something we'd like to do as we always share our wins or our positives. What that does is it starts to just reinforce how many positive things or items we have to be grateful in our life right in this present moment. So we get to feel the good feelings of that via the emotional cocktail of those feel good feelings on a regular basis. And guess what, when we feel good, both consciously and subconsciously, we start seeking out behaviors to repeat or reinforce those feel good feelings, which by the way, eating well and moving often helps create more of those feelings. So by starting on this self love first approach, what happens is you begin to fall in love with yourself again, while simultaneously all of your diet and exercise challenges kind of fall into the background. Some of those good behaviors now start to become second nature because you focus on the crux of the problem, which is you didn't love yourself.

Philip Pape 19:56

Yeah, you really hit hit the nail on the head. head with what how the industry frames all of this. I love your enthusiasm and positivity. How you approach this the idea that we should love ourselves or because we love ourselves. That's why we're trying to do XYZ, you know, get healthier change our habits change what we do. And, and like you said, it's not even about the specific thing, which is kind of, I don't want to say easy, but it's it's really the what you're trying to get as a result from that and the love that comes with it. So I mean, where else do we go with the the deep work, you talked about deep work for this meaningful insight out trance transformation, what else is involved there, maybe maybe break it up into a little bit of concrete set of steps?

Paul Salter 20:42

Yes, and let me just add one more thought to self love, I think it's really valuable for your listeners is the most important relationship we have is the one with ourselves. And if we can reframe it and see it through that lens, while we can then see if we begin pouring into the relationship with ourselves by speaking kindly to ourselves by picking ourselves up, rather than picking ourselves apart, and practicing gratitude and self love that directly flows into our relationship with food, our relationship with exercise our relationship with our significant other friends, family, etc. But it all starts from within.

Philip Pape 21:18

And, and I know I asked the question, then you wanted to continue the previous one. I want to ask a follow up to that one. Yeah, we'll get back to where does where does the support structure and this could be loved ones, family, friends are a coach come into that, because I imagine some people really struggle to get to that point.

Paul Salter 21:36

Gotta have a community of some sort. Some people are very blessed, and their significant partner significant other is right there with them their biggest cheerleader, you know, unfortunately, not everybody has that luxury. So you've got to seek it out. And more often than not, it's not your closest friend group. It's not your parents, your co workers or colleagues or your significant other, you have to go find it. And that's hard. That's intimidating, because it's like, how do I go show up with a bunch of strangers, introduce myself, and then pour out all my thoughts and feelings much easier said than done. So I, you know, obviously community being in the name of what we do and what I do, and you having a wonderful community, yourself, we know the value of community actually, I loved what you shared when we kick this thing off about the power of hope. I couldn't agree more when we're going at something on our own. We're operating from a place of isolation, lack and hopelessness. A community provides hope, inspiration and positivity, if we can provide someone with that sense of hope, you have the opportunity to drastically alter the trajectory of their life. So you've got to go find a community of like minded individuals and virtual communities have proven to be just as effective as in person, physical communities, it's just, you know, you have to go find that community.

Philip Pape 22:44

Yeah, I totally agree. And I think I think that applies to life in general, with anything you want to work on anything you want to work on for, for skill development, if you want to get better at something is finding people out there and because the people around you aren't necessarily experts, nor do they always care, so to speak, like, they may be supportive. But you can start talking their ear off about macros, or your plan or this snack, it's like, okay, you know, I'm gonna go have my pizza now. But yeah, that's an interesting concept. So yeah, it gets back to the deep work now, the. So I'm looking for a little more concrete. I want the listeners to have something to run with here. Yeah,

Paul Salter 23:22

absolutely. So one of the best recommended recommends recommended there, the steps that I can share with you is every single day writing down one to three things you are grateful for. This is a wonderful, simple opportunity to begin rewiring our subconscious to constantly scan our environment for things that are positively going on in our life are things that we should be grateful for. Because biologically, we are wired to scan our environment for the threats to find the negativity. It's an innate survival mechanism, traceback, you know, centuries and centuries ago, so we actually actually have to do the work, to find the positives and train our brains to find them on our own. And the way I like to teach this, because sometimes we might sit there and think like, oh, my gosh, what do I have to be grateful for today, as I like to first offer the reminder, it can be as simple as I am grateful for this morning's cup of coffee, I am grateful for my dog, it absolutely doesn't have to be diet or exercise related anything in your life. But to give a framework, I personally like to practice identifying one thing I am grateful for in my personal life. One thing I am grateful for about myself, and then one thing that I am grateful for in my work or community, so that kind of helps guide my thought a little bit and kind of get me thinking in that right direction. So it's not like you know, opening up a blank Microsoft Word document and starting like, where do I begin? So it's got to start practicing gratitude. Number two, is you want to get very clear. And this is kind of a multi step, step two, so bear with me, but you want to get clear on like, who is the best version of Phillip, who is the best version of Paul, how does he speak to himself? What thoughts does he have? What does he believe to be true about himself. And this is kind of a big exercise in one. But what I'm getting at is, if you're clear on what you know, the highest version of yourself the best version of yourself how he he or she thinks, speaks and talks, well, now you can start emulating that, you'll have awareness about where the disconnect is and how far away you are from that. And with that awareness, now you can start offering substitutions I'm not, you know, instead of saying I'm fat, I'll never get there at cetera. I've come very far, I've made a lot of progress. I'm trending in the right direction, subtle word choice changes can begin to bleed into your thoughts and beliefs. And it's just awareness and action. I think, you know, going a little all over the place, I recognize that. But if I had to distill that into one step, some type of journaling practice, I think just goes a long way in being able to emotionally vomit and start getting more comfortable identifying what how you are feeling thinking and talking on a regular basis, because with that awareness comes opportunity for change.

Philip Pape 25:56

Yeah, I like the both the gratitude piece, especially when you mentioned categorizing it, and including something you're grateful for about yourself, because oftentimes, we externalize and we don't want to come back to that. And then I can tie that into the second piece you mentioned about imagining the best version of you or a better version of you in the future. And I know you talked about we talked about earlier, the awareness of disruptive and self stop sabotaging kind of pattern. So now this is the inverse, right? The maybe constructive and self building or self supporting patterns of thought, from where you want to be. It's great stuff. So journaling and gratitude. Very awesome. Hey, this is Philip pape, letting you know that applications are now open for one on one coaching. If you're a busy working professional, who has tried dieting, and exercising for years, with little in the way of results, and you want to lose fat, get lean or feel confident in your body without excessive dieting, cardio or restrictions, just go to wits & weights.com/coaching, to apply. Talking about how people think about food and nutrition in this context, a common challenge I see all the time is the relationship with food, right? And this and this often comes out in the weekends and social events and situations where you have to make in the moment decisions and are outside of your routine. I mean, this is extremely common. anybody listening knows this? We all know it. How can someone I guess either take control or I think you call it cultivate more intentionality. I saw that in your work somewhere to transform their relationship with food.

Paul Salter 27:36

Yeah, that's so well said. And with that intentionality. Again, I think we're all victims of kind of outsourcing how we want to feel or what this ideal relationship would look like to the diet industry. And one of the biggest things we do that that's proven to be really transformational for our clients is like, what is your desired relationship with food look like? And feel like? How do you want to navigate the social occasion? So one of the prompts I like to use when talking with someone through this is like, let's say you're navigating a social occasion on Saturday, how do you want to feel waking up on Sunday, and it didn't get clear, like I want to feel I don't want to feel bloated, I don't want to feel like a like an asshole, I don't want to feel you know, hungover or whatever it may be, again, the beauty of identifying how we want to feel it gives us the opportunity to reverse engineer steps. So that's kind of the overarching introductory prompt, but from there, you know, a social occasion is not an excuse to eat like an asshole like you still do have control like, I don't know, I don't know why we're all conditioned to think like, Oh, we're not at home, we can't control anything anymore. We have to have the pizza, the pie the cake, we can't have vegetables or protein first. And it's just through a lot of, you know, reinforcement of education that they probably know or have heard at one point or the other, but giving them actionable strategies. So there are several little tweaks and recommendations we can make to better arm them to navigate cravings, temptations and when I hit the most, you know valuable one I have to share as I always like to teach like when you're going into a social occasion. And you know, there's going to be deserved temptations, your favorite foods, whatever it may be. And you want to be mindful of your nutrition goals macros, portions, whatever it may be, use a rating scale. And what I mean by that is if this dessert is a 10 out of 10 Eat it prioritize making memories over memory or over. Managing macros. Memories are always more important than macros. But the example I like to use for that, like let's say you make a bomb cheesecake and you only make it twice a year. I'm having cheesecake twice a year every time you make it but if you know Betty Liu makes cookies and brings them into work every Friday and they're the same damn cookies. They're not a 10 out of 10 on my scale there there may be a two out of 10 They're good but I don't need them. They don't really provide me much bang for my buck in this sense, but your cheesecake is a twice in your opportunity. That's a ton of a 10 I'm not turning that down where I'm absolutely going to turn down buddy loose cookies more often than not.

Philip Pape 29:56

I love that technique every time I talk to other coaches about it. There's always amazing strategies to try. And and that's a great one. Because if you go if you're on vacation, right, I was raised with the conditioning of, well, we're on vacation, right? It's like, No, we're on vacation. So anything goes. And if you were at a buffet and like, think about a kind of cheap buffet restaurant, right? Where there's just so much mediocre quality food, and he just looked at it and asked yourself like it, is this worth it? Is this something that I would is a special one? Or like thing or, or not? So I like that, giving it a rating? What's your thoughts then on? So we talked about controlling emotions and planning and not thinking in the moment, willpower and discipline, right? When people say, well, dieting and losing weight, it's just, you know, it's, it's calories, and we just need to do it. What are your thoughts on that?

Paul Salter 30:50

Yes, so I like to say like, you know, willpower comes and goes like a bolt of lightning, anybody can follow through on a very challenging task when willpower is really high. And that comes with having a clear vision of what success is having a clear vision of what your why is making sure it's emotionally charged. But willpower is like finite energy it comes and goes, we have to recharge it. So that means that we have to have something to fall back on, which is our set of habits, our foundational habits that keep us moving in the direction we desire. And human beings are incredibly gritty, resilient and persistent, we can do just about damn anything for 3060 90 days, such as follow an incredibly restrictive diet. But if we don't have a foundation of habits to fall back on, once we inevitably reach that point of burnout, we're only going to regress to what we know best, which was the collection of habits that got us to the place of being overweight, unhappy, whatever it may be in the first place. So when it comes to willpower, we absolutely cannot rely on it. Discipline and willpower, obviously, very related here. But I like to put the emphasis when discussing discipline on those foundational habits, what are those two to three habits on a, whether it's a daily, weekly, or monthly basis that if you only did those two or three things, you're still moving the needle in the direction you desire. And if we can really shift our focus to prioritizing those and not relying on when we feel our absolute best, that helps us to continuously make progress. And it's that beautiful, accumulate accumulation of the compound effect.

Philip Pape 32:21

And speaking of those habits, the big the big habits that that individuals should prioritize? I imagine there are a set of habits that are pretty commonly seen across clients that that you kind of, I don't want to say you select from, but you know, I'll give you an example getting more steps, right, many clients, and that needs to be their biggest habit. So is there is there a set of habits you see that are more common than not for most people, meal prep,

Paul Salter 32:47

whether that's once or twice a week depends on the individual, of course, a minimum frequency of exercise per week, whether that's three days or five days doesn't matter. But you know, typically, if we hit our minimum, we're more likely to do more. So we can set the bar a little lower. But we also feel a lot better if we get two workouts in versus zero workouts. And we're more likely to do three, four or five, like I mentioned. So there's the meal prep, there's the workout minimum. And then there is a step goal. I love a minimum fluid intake I love but then also a consistent bedtime as well can be a big difference maker.

Philip Pape 33:20

That's a good one. Yeah, bedtime, and there's things like protein and others as well. So, of course, yeah, of course. And so I was reading one of your articles. And you know, I know we agree on a lot and have a similar approach. One thing in particular stands out, and that is what you're talking about a pre diet maintenance phase. And I think I think I use the term myself like metabolic prep or metabolic restoration or whatever. But and we're basically preparing ourselves for weight loss for fat loss, because a lot of clients probably come in and they say, I want to lose weight, I want to get to that number, like that's what I'm hiring you for. Don't tell me I need to wait or that I might even gain a little before I do that. So, you know, let's take a step back, right? And make sure your body and mind are ready for this. Tell us more about this phase, from your perspective what actions someone needs to take so that they know they're ready and successful for the fat loss phase.

Paul Salter 34:12

Yeah, so I think first and foremost, we need to make sure you're eating enough so that we actually have a significant amount of food to reduce from to induce weight loss. And you know, you're coming to me as a new client wanting to lose weight yesterday and you're eating 1000 calories per day, where the hell are we taking calories away from? So education around that is very, very important to outline the repercussions of trying to reduce from an already very relatively low calorie intake. So, education here, I can't stress enough it's just a lot of education to the new client at this time. But where I really like to explain even further is again, dieting the act of trying to lose weight is a significant physiological, emotional and psychological stressor. And if we're already inconsistent with our eating, exercise, lifestyle habits, that's challenging and stressful enough. It If we take that inconsistency and then enter a diet phase and put the additional stress of dieting on our plate, that's not a recipe for success, that's a recipe for short term weight loss and long term weight regain and rebound. So where the pre diet maintenance phase comes in is this might be a four to 12 week period in which we are absolutely not targeting weight loss whatsoever. So we're removing the stress of a calorie deficit from this person's plate, which all of a sudden opens up ample opportunity, and so much more mental and emotional bandwidth to begin using this newfound energy to rebuild a sustainable relation, versus a sustainable relationship with food, rebuild foundational eating habits. And we work on all of these new skill sets or fine tuning them for a period of time until consistency becomes second nature so that when it is time to diet, the only single change we make is simply the amount of food on their plate, we're not flipping their meal prep routine or their grocery list upside down, we're not adding in 10 cardio sessions per week, no, you're just eating a little bit less, you've just spent the last two or three months rebuilding these habits that are set you up to help you feel look and be your best. And now if the goal is weight loss, cool, we're gonna take a little food off your plate, and you don't have to do anything different. So what I have found is the most popular adjective used by my clients describe a dieting phase, when they take their time to go through the pre diet maintenance phase is easy, because they've done all the hard work upfront, which also sets them up for success to sustain the results after the diet ends. Because again, nothing changes, we just put a little more food back on your

Philip Pape 36:32

plate. Yeah, so well said because people come in thinking this is this is a switch, I'm gonna put on my dieting hat and I'm going to take it off. And when I'm in a dieting mode, restrict, restrict, restrict, and then when it's off anything goes. And you're getting them into a state where it's a matter of scaling at that point, habits are all set potentially habits for life at this point. And you've set them up for success. And now it's just kind of turning that dial in the right direction, based on where they want to go.

Paul Salter 37:00

Let me add one more thing too. There's, there's a big misuse of the definition of the word diet, you and I and everybody listening knows that as an intentionally trying to lose weight. But there's a secondary definition that's far more valuable. And that's simply a habitual way of eating. And the example I like to use is if I tell you I follow a plant based diet, you don't automatically assume I'm trying to lose weight, you just assume I habitually eat plant based foods. So there's a big difference there. Again, opportunity for education. If we focus on the secondary definition, we want to rebuild our habitual way of eating that will serve us for life. It's sustainable, it's unique, simple and flexible. It promotes strong adherence so that when it's time to lose weight or stop dieting, we're just altering the amount of portions on our plate, but not our foundational habits.

Philip Pape 37:44

Yeah, that's great. What if What if a client comes to you and and are, you tell them it's a four to 12 week phase, and they just really want to get going in the fat loss and you get them started with the skill development? Is it kind of an incentive based approach is it almost like a game where you kind of have to earn your your ability to go into that next phase?

Paul Salter 38:04

In so many ways, it really is. And I'm also clear, like, sometimes weight loss still happens during this phase, because you go from eating like shit to eating pretty well consistently. And I remind them of that, but it's also again, an opportunity to educate on where outside the scale we can be and should be looking for progress. So again, consistency is the obvious one, but how you feel your energy exercise, poor performance, recovery, your relationship with food, your level of competence and control, navigating social occasions, if I can open someone's eyes to the myriad of different areas, they're going to see feel and experience progress outside of the scale, they're far more likely to stick with it. Because like, oh, yeah, like I would rather feel really, really good, regardless of the number on the scale.

Philip Pape 38:47

That's excellent. I've seen that go both ways, when you're talking about biofeedback, how you feel your hunger, digestion, maybe your stress all of that. And I've seen it go both ways. If you're trying to build muscle, you're trying to gain weight, and you are afraid of gaining weight, then maybe you focus on how do you feel in the gym? How are your gains coming along? Right? How, what are your measurements? Like, let's not worry about the scale? He kind of goes both directions. So I think that's awesome. That's that's a great approach. anybody listening? Paul's Paul's the man here. He knows what he's talking about. And I want to so I guess this question was probably already answered. You had a recent episode about navigating maintenance with a dieting mentality. And that's, that can be a detrimental thing. But I think we kind of touched on this. Is there any more to that? That I'm missing?

Paul Salter 39:32

Yeah, I think so. It's, it is very important to recognize that dieting is a tool of phenol lifestyle, and we use that primary definition of trying to lose weight and it is a best recommendation during that sustained period of time to minimize you know, some of those treats favorite foods and alcohol. I'm not saying restrict all together, but sometimes or not. Sometimes more often than not. We're all guilty when we finish a diet. It's like we've flipped the switch in our mind anything goes again, we're back to the highlight If it's like, Okay, we got to pump the brakes on that minute. And again, this all can be traced back to how we start that pre diet maintenance phase with those habits. So when you approach maintenance with a dieting mindset, typically the way that plays out is you don't increase your food intake, maybe you do it once and you stay there. So what happens is your body remains in a place where it's still accustomed to a relatively low calorie intake for you. And during a diet phase, many adaptations take place to kind of kick you out of that calorie deficit is your way of body's fighting back against the diet, undue stress. So the hunger, the fatigue, the cravings that come with dieting, if you don't transition out of a dive into a post diet, maintenance phase appropriately, those things still linger, you're still susceptible to cravings, hunger and fatigue, therefore, more likely to eventually reach that point of burning out or giving in. So it's important that you do move forward with these gradual diligent increases in your portions for the next, you know, 810 12 weeks, depending on how long your diet is.

Philip Pape 41:04

Yeah, that's a great point, you touched on the metabolic adaptation that people experience. And I think we want to be very clear, when you're listening to this, Paul's saying that you don't want to be at maintenance, but still at that downregulated level of calories, you want to build up the calories. And it could be you know, classic reverse dieting, it could be recovery, dieting, whatever term you want to use, it's getting up to, I would I call it the highest level of calories, you can be at maintenance, and with your full optimal health and hormone balance, and all that good stuff. So typically, if some,

Paul Salter 41:36

if someone's like, if we're just purely speaking of calories for simplicity, for for a moment here, that's usually getting back to eating between 85 and 90% of your pre diet calorie amount. So as you can imagine, like if you before you started dieting, you're eating 2000 calories per day, and then maybe you knocked down to 1700 1400, etc. You should be getting up around 1800. Again, for you know, you're back into your cruise control or forever maintenance, and you're not staying at 1500.

Philip Pape 42:03

Yeah, exactly. And you mentioned that sometimes it goes up higher, because if you're new to training, if you're new to steps, and now you're all of a sudden add all these things in perhaps it, it pushes it up a little bit. We use the phrase weight loss a lot. And we kind of touched a little bit on fat loss. How do you shift the mindset? Or do you from weight loss to body composition?

Paul Salter 42:25

I think by breaking it down just like you did, like you know, people always say I was just talking about this the other day, like oh, well, I want more muscle muscle weighs more than fat, no, a pound of muscle is the same way as a pound of fat muscle is more energetically costly. So if you have more muscle, you expend more energy, therefore you can technically eat more to maintain your weight. It's a beautiful situation. But I really like to go into the education like having more muscle has so many different health strength and performance longevity benefits. So when it comes to approaching weight loss, if we technically prioritize weight loss, our end result is this skinny fat, unhealthy version of ourselves. If we are prioritizing fat loss or body composition, we're maintaining our precious hard earned muscle mass while we're trying to lose fat, which is absolutely what we want to do. It supports our fat loss and our physique endeavors. And then when we're not dieting, we're trying to build more muscle and minimize fat. So it's definitely a nuanced but important distinction between the two. And we want to have that clarity there about Yes, fat loss and weight loss are different. We want to target fat loss, and therefore our diet and our exercise routine should be aligned appropriately.

Philip Pape 43:33

And do you ever have a client that comes in saying, you know, I need to lose 1020 pounds this is this is my ideal weight, because that's what I weighed when I was 22. And you actually end up doing the pre diet maintenance and potentially go the other direction and build muscle instead of losing fat. Do you have clients that ever go that direction? More often

Paul Salter 43:52

with men, you know, just cleaning up their eating and consistency, it'll see a complete body composition and even more often in like people who have very limited training experience, their training age is very new. So they're incredibly sensitive and receptive to just consistent exercise.

Philip Pape 44:07

Yeah, okay. Just curious. So yeah, so we've covered a lot of awesome stuff. I like to ask this question of all guests, and that is what question Did you wish I had asked, and what is your answer?

Paul Salter 44:18

You didn't ask me what my upcoming business idea is. That has nothing to do with nutrition.

Philip Pape 44:24

Oh, I didn't know you know, what, what is your upcoming business idea? Well,

Paul Salter 44:31

yes, I'm very passionate about coffee and looking forward to opening a coffee shop or maybe a coffee cart first in the near future and just really being able to utilize it as an opportunity. As you know, the bajillion people drink coffee every day. That's a bajillion different touchpoints to have a positive impact on someone's life. So it's a way for me to kind of connect all that we teach in the 5% community about self talk, self talk, self love, gratitude wins and positivity and get to share that with A lot more people on a daily basis because of that coffee transaction. So I look look at that as another outlet to just bring this sense of positivity into the world.

Philip Pape 45:08

That is amazing. Are you going to have a high protein coffee?

Paul Salter 45:12

I'll have to look at it I got my round one of my menus already setting it didn't make the cut but never say never.

Philip Pape 45:18

Okay, I love myself a simple americano tiny bit of cream and maybe stevia sounds good. I'll stop by a coffee shop. Is that in the Tampa area?

Paul Salter 45:27

It will be I'm not there yet. I'm in I'm currently shadowing local roasters and shops to learn more and one day at a time it just comes.

Philip Pape 45:35

That's awesome. Well, good luck with that. I'm sure it'll be successful with with the attitudes you have with everything. And I the last question, of course I have is where can listeners find more about you and your work? Yeah, the

Paul Salter 45:47

best place is to connect with me on Instagram at Paul Salter coaching, it's just an opportunity for you to just see me as I am I my authentic self, whether it's online, in person on Instagram, and, you know, come say hi, see if we vibe and we're in alignment, and we'll go from there.

Philip Pape 46:03

Awesome. So we'll include those in the show notes. We include all your links, and social and all that. And I believe in abundance mindset. We're all coaches trying to help each other and help our listeners and help everybody get their best results. And the more education the more awareness through things like these podcasts, I think really go a long way. That's how I learned I know you probably learned a lot that way as well. So Paul, this was a value packed conversation. I really enjoyed it. And I want to thank you again for coming on the show.

Paul Salter 46:31

Thank you so much for having me. I thoroughly enjoyed first of all, let me just shout you out for your prep work is absolutely meticulous and incredible. So thank you so much for setting me up for success and for asking such outstanding questions to facilitate a great conversation.

Philip Pape 46:44

No problem. Yeah, it was great. I really enjoyed it. And hopefully we'll be staying in touch and connect again in the future. Absolutely. Thanks for listening to the show. Before you go, I have a quick favorite ask. If you enjoy the podcast, let me know by leaving a five star review in Apple podcasts and telling others about the show. Thanks again for joining me Philip Pape in this episode of Wits & Weights. I'll see you next time and stay strong.

Philip Pape 11/15/22 Philip Pape 11/15/22

Ep 32: Fix Your Nutrition for a Healthy, Balance Lifestyle with Tyla Serro

One of my superstar clients, Tyla Serro, was my first interview guest (back in Episode 17), before we started working together on her nutrition plan, and she even planted the idea of me becoming a nutrition coach. Tyla is a powerlifter, mom of a toddler, military spouse, and working professional. She keeps herself busy lifting heavy weights, volunteering with Protectors of Animals, all this while working full time as a busy professional.

Tyla Serro joined us live in the Wits & Weights Facebook Group to share her journey. She was my first interview guest (back in Episode 17), before we started working together on her nutrition plan, and she even planted the idea of me becoming a nutrition coach.

Tyla Serro is a powerlifter, mom of a toddler, military spouse, and working professional. She keeps herself busy lifting heavy weights, volunteering with Protectors of Animals, all this while working full time as a Configuration Manager in the Aerospace Industry.

Tyla recently acquired the title of Connecticut State Referee for the United States Powerlifting Association and will be judging an upcoming powerlifting meet in November. She’s passionate about raising awareness of Primary Lymphedema, a rare disease that her son was born with.

When she's not doing all of these things, she enjoys the outdoors with her family and truly believes that an active lifestyle is one of the many hacks to living your best life.

Topics discussed in this episode:

Tyla's background with lifting and nutrition
Her fitness and nutrition goals over the last year
Experience with dieting
The process we went through for her fat loss phase
Who and why someone should track macros
Tyla's proudest moment on this journey
Education and awareness that comes from working with a coach
Planning ahead and enjoying social events and dining out
Tyla's increased confidence in her ability to sustain results
The importance of strength training
Her thoughts about the upcoming muscle-building phase
Where someone should start when it comes to health and fitness

RELATED LINKS

Find Tyla on Instagram
Protectors of Animals, a non-profit, primarily volunteer, no-kill organization whose mission is to increase the quality of life of all dogs and cats in the communities they serve.
Watch the episode on video here

👉 If you have any questions, just click here.

👨‍💻 HOSTED BY

Philip Pape of Wits & Weights (Instagram 👉 @witsandweights)

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Transcript

Philip Pape 00:08

Philip Pape 00:30

Welcome to another episode of Wits & Weights, and we are streaming live in the Wits & Weights Facebook group and we just renamed it recently. To that so it's easier to find. You can join the group absolutely free, you get access to tons of free information guides, training and interviews like this one, which is an early preview to what will become a podcast episode, and tons more related to strength and nutrition. You can find the link in the show notes. I'm your host, Philip pape, I'm the founder of Wits & Weights, nutrition coaching. And real quick one of the best ways to support the show is to submit a five star rating and review for the podcast with Apple or Spotify. Or just share this episode, you could take a screenshot, throw it on social media, tag me at Wits & Weights. Okay, I've been looking forward to this conversation for a while because one of my superstar clients Tyler zero is joining me today to share her journey. She was actually my first interview guests way back in episode 17. Before we started working together on her nutrition plan, and she even planted the idea of me becoming a nutrition coach. So I'm very grateful for that. I've always admired her, I'll say tireless positive energy, she has a passion for everything she does, whether it's fitness, or any other causes she's involved in, and her commitment to the process, despite challenges thrown her way. So let me tell you guys a little bit about Tyler ciros. Tyler is a powerlifter. She's a mom of a toddler, she's a military spouse, and she's a working professional. She keeps herself busy lifting heavy weights, she volunteers with protectors of animals. And she does all this while working full time as a configuration manager in the aerospace industry. Tyler recently acquired the title of Connecticut State referee for the United States powerlifting Association, the US PA and she is going to be judging an upcoming powerlifting meet next month. So we're recording this on October and the meat is in November. And maybe we'll put a link up to that when it's when it's out. She's passionate about raising awareness of primary lymphedema, a rare disease that her son was born with. And when she's not doing all of these things, she enjoys the outdoors of their family. And she totally believes in an active lifestyle is one of the many hacks to living your best life. So Tyler, I'm stoked to have you on the show to share your story, the ups and downs all the success you've had this year, I think your true inspiration and thank you for coming on. Thanks, so. So last time you were on the show, we talked about your powerlifting journey. And what we did, and we talked. So listen to that episode 17, guys, and today I want to dive into nutrition with you. So let's just start earlier this year, what I remember is you've been listening to the podcast, it was maybe 10 episodes. And at that point, you reached out to me to give me some feedback. And then we started to go back and forth from there. And that eventually led to your interview on the show, becoming a coaching client and so on. So walk us through what was going through your mind when you first reached out to me and then we'll go from there. So, um, do you mean when I think you reached out to me first, right? And you asked I think the first said was, hey, do you want to be on the podcast and talk about powerlifting. And so I was really excited. I thought that'd be really fun. So I quickly binged all of the episodes of Wits & Weights, so that way I would. Well, one I had agreed to being on the show before I had listened to any episodes. And in hindsight, you know, you probably should feel out the whatever it is that you're agreeing to do, right? Because I had no idea of what message or messages you were putting out there. So I quickly listened to I think all the episodes in a couple of days. And I was really impressed with everything that you had to say. You definitely took an approach that I agreed with. Everything made a lot of sense. Sorry, Hang on one second. My cat is trying to eat my dinner.

Tyla Serro 04:34

You were you were saying a lot of good stuff. And I was like, Wow, this guy's really smart. And I had no idea I had followed you on Instagram and I knew you were lifting weights and doing things like that, but I didn't know that you knew so much about strength and conditioning, health in general. And I almost felt a little embarrassed myself for kind of like I've said this more recently to fill up that I consider myself a lazy athlete and

Tyla Serro 05:00

And that I don't know a lot of the reasons why I do the things that I do. Like I've always worked with a coach for my programming.

Tyla Serro 05:10

And I wasn't really sure why I did those specific specific movements. I just did them and I saw great results. So listening to Philips podcast inspired me to listen to more content like that. I mostly listened to like true crime podcasts, which is a completely different genre. So that kind of gave me a bug to listen to more content like that and become more interested in like, what is progressive overload? And how does all that work? And why is nutrition such a big, important part of all of all of that? So yeah, so yeah, you you invited me on the podcast, liked it thought it was great. I think after our interview, I probably was like, hey, Philip, you should be a coach, you're really good at talking and smart. Why would why wouldn't

Philip Pape 05:59

you do this? Yeah, it's funny. So I mean, I love everything you talked about with education and awareness, even though you've been at this for years. And thank you for correcting my memory of all of this, because I get things out of out of order. You're right, I had invited you onto the show. And then you listened to it, and then got back. Yeah, so thank you for for correcting me there live, which is great. And when we started working together, so yeah, you're right after the last interview, we were off camera off recording. And we had a little chat about nutrition and coaching. And that kind of planted the seed. But as you said, you already have the solid foundation of, of practice at least of strength, obviously, as a competitive powerlifter. You'd work with nutrition coaches. So maybe tell us a little bit more about your fitness and nutrition goals, maybe just over the last year as you're working on process.

Tyla Serro 06:51

So I was working with some other coaches right up until I made the switch to work with you, once you decided to, you know, take on the commitment of becoming a certified nutrition coach. And I have nothing but great things to say about my my previous coach, she did a really good job, I guess the onus was on me that I wasn't really good at adhering to the protocols that I was given. I know I when I first started working with them, I was in the beginning, I was very compliant adherence to the macros and I was able to meet the milestones or goals that I was setting. And then as time kind of went on, I just became less and less interested in tracking really. So we tried to switch the approach to intuitive eating, which was so funny, right? When I made that switch to intuitive eating, I was intuitive eating at the time, and I listened to one of your episodes where you talked about that. And you were like for people who are brand new to the tracking and nutrition and whatnot, it's really not a good idea. Because it's really hard, especially if you don't have any foundation of weighing food and knowing what an appropriate portion is based on the goals that you have, it can be really hard to just lose it what is a serving of protein that really depends right on how many grams of protein you need, in that one meal. So I did have a pretty good foundation I was pretty comfortable, I guess was what a balanced plate or meal looks like. So I did do intuitive eating for a couple of months, kind of as my exit with the previous coaches that I was working with. And at that point, I had gained a decent amount of weight I want to say around like 10 pounds in like a year's time. And that was kind of weird for me because normally my weight would fluctuate maybe like three to five pounds, but 10 seemed like kind of drastic. No I didn't I didn't really wasn't really comfortable with that number of like, my clothes are starting to feel really tight and uncomfortable. Like, what's going on? I gotta die on my nutrition. And so when I started working with you, I definitely knew that that was the goal. Now however, like I said, I've been strength training and working with coaches on nutrition and whatnot. But I've never done a true caloric deficit and actually stuck with it ever. So I'm super proud that I was able to do that with you. Yeah,

Philip Pape 09:22

yeah. Yeah, that's awesome. And I want to say you said you were you had tracked before you then went to intuitive eating, of course, we track and you put it really well you put it better than I can about, you know, somebody who isn't quite experienced using tracking to develop that skill before they go to intuitive eating. But if we go even before that, had you had you tried other like dieting in the past, you know, kind of what a lot of people try, whether it's paleo, whole 30, keto, vegetarian, anything like that. Have you tried those in the past?

Tyla Serro 09:54

I yeah, I mean, I think all of us who have been doing this for five plus 10 yours, you try it all right, like I can remember, in high school even thinking that like sugar was the enemy. So anything I would like read late, that's when I started to learn to read labels to probably in like a home economics class. And man, you know, you start reading labels and just certain things were bad. So anything that had added sugar, I would try to avoid that. But I would find that like, you restrict yourself so much, and then you end up binging it. So I remember I did something like that, where I basically cut out all added sugars, but at the end of the day, like a car was a carb, right. So that, of course, didn't work. And then in my first few years of college, I started doing CrossFit. And at the time, Paleo was super, super big with all the CrossFit people. Um, and I was like, oh, yeah, I can get behind that. Like, I love meat and potatoes, and yeah, no carbs. Um, so I did. I don't think that I ever did any of these diets truly. But I tried, right, I would call it a low carb diet didn't really know what I was doing didn't have a legitimate training plan was just going in the gym, finding random workout stuff, a bodybuilding.com and swinging weight at my college gym. But it worked, I guess. So I'd say I probably gave paleo the most effort, but it was also probably drinking way too much alcohol on the weekends and stuff like that. And I don't think that's part of the Paleo plan. I never tried keto. I did try the carnivore diet for maybe like two weeks. Oh, my goodness. Like, no,

Philip Pape 11:41

that's gotta be tough, right? Because you're cutting out all plants. I can't

Tyla Serro 11:45

remember. It was like orange juice, eggs. A lot of red meat. Yeah. Just really interesting stuff. I mean, hey, if it works for you keep doing it. But um,

Philip Pape 11:55

yeah. So and that's the question is, do these things even work for people? And when we say work, what do we mean? Do we mean work to lose 30 pounds? Or do we mean work for something you can live with for the rest of your life? Right.

Tyla Serro 12:06

And I think you put it really basic, like, you've said this before? Maybe you haven't said it specifically, but other people have like, it doesn't really I mean, it does, it does matter what you're eating, but you need to be in a calorie deficit in order to lose weight. It's as simple as that and how you choose to fuel yourself. Yeah, there's better options, maybe but uh, other than that, I think those were the few diets. I never tried, like whole 30. I never did any like, cleanses or all those like I would call typical. Like a lot of women will do like whole 30. Or, like, I feel like keto is pretty popular with women too. But like all the talk, I remember listening to an episode, I think of Joe Rogan. On the Keto, real, the real effect of it and like to get yourself into a true state of ketosis is pretty difficult to do. And I don't think he average, Dieter can get themselves there without the help of an experienced, probably coach. So none of those things worked for me. None of those things were sustainable.

Philip Pape 13:15

Yep. So they, so they didn't work. Yeah, no, they didn't work. And for a lot of people, they, you hear time, and again, they they tend to not work. That's why we have, I think something like 95% of people eventually regain all their weight, within five years, something like that. So we're trying to change that. And I want to wait to talk about what you've learned, even even since we started working together about the process that others can use, when it comes to your relationship with food. And where I'm going with this is, you mentioned energy balance is important, right for gaining and losing weight, calories in calories out. But we also know that it's not as easy, it's simple, but not as easy for people to actually do that, in practice, due to a bunch of other reasons have nothing to do with food, right. Like weekend's, you know, or social events. And maybe we can dive a little bit into that. The process we kind of go through to identify those triggers those obstacles and things that have nothing to do with food and and deal with those.

Tyla Serro 14:13

Yeah weekend's so I always tell people that there's a huge like, for me personally, food, there's an emotional connection that I have with food, I love food. I love sharing a meal with friends, family, even a stranger, I think I can sit down and drink some coffee and eat, you know, a croissant or whatever any delicious thing and I feel like there's some level of joy that that brings me and then also that like conversation as well and they just seem to go really well together. And I always tell people, I have like really good discipline, but I have terrible self control. So I'm disciplined in the sense that like, I typically don't like people come over my house and like you guys have no snacks. And I'm like, Well, you Yeah, like, what's the point of snacks like just put together a meal? In the snacks I do have I guess my friends don't approve of.

Philip Pape 15:07

Oh, yeah, they're thinking like bagged packaged foods right like chips and stuff

Tyla Serro 15:11

Cheez Its and pretzels and things like that. And like, cut off

Philip Pape 15:15

cucumbers of hummus they want

Tyla Serro 15:17

no or they don't. Because the oil separate. But, uh, yeah. So if, if so back to the discipline, self control thing, right? Like, I typically don't buy that stuff. I just buy stuff that I know I can eat in appropriately so that way, I'm not like binging it should control your environment. And right, yeah, but if I go out to like a social gathering, and there's a huge charcuterie board with a ton of cheese and jellies, and jams and crackers, myself, control is like really hard, because it's there, and it's in front of me. And I'm like, Well, I'm just going to eat it. And I tend to be like, the type of person and you've actually taught me like, if you go over your macros by like 100 200 calories, it's not a big deal. But don't just like say screw it. And like, I hope I can say that. Whatever, like, I'm just gonna, you know, binge always just go 1000 over your macros, which I personally kind of had that all or nothing mindset. And I'm still working on like, not being that person. Because it can be really detrimental to your goals and progress, right? Like, a couple, a couple 100 calories is maybe not a big deal in the grand scheme of things. But when you're doing that on a weekly basis, every weekend, you're going over by a ton. It's just going to take you longer if you're if you're in a deficit, and you're trying to lose weight. So yeah,

Philip Pape 16:45

and let me just stop there, because you just hit on the, I think that's the heart of the vast majority of people, where the issue is, you just talked about a lack of self control. And so basically comes down to emotion. And in the moment, decision making, you're all of a sudden presented with all these options. You're like, what do I do? And then you make a decision. And you're like, Ah, I feel a little guilty, you know, that over my calories, but what the hell, let me just keep going. And, and especially if you throw alcohol in the mix, where you don't even realize what you're eating, or you throw appetizers at the Mexican restaurant or whatever, yeah, it adds up. And like you said, on a weekly basis, it can, it can sabotage your goals. But conversely, if you're over by 100, or 200, on a given day, on a weekly basis, it really isn't that big of a deal. Don't beat yourself up over it, you know, aim for perfection, but don't beat yourself up when you don't get there.

Tyla Serro 17:35

That's yeah, and you really helped me see that too, with like, I tend to be because of my personality. And I feel like I tend to be somewhat of a perfectionist. And if things aren't perfect, I'm like, well, it's ruined. Just forgetting, um, you want to help me? And during my, like, weekly check ins, see, like, the positive sides of things and be like, Yeah, I know, you. You like, like, I was focusing a lot in the beginning on my scale. Wait, I'm not to try and wait. Like, every day I was like, like getting excited to to weigh in. And it would fluctuate a little bit. But I'd be like, when it would fluctuate down some. And then it took me a cup, like maybe a month or two to really be like, Okay, I really need to be looking at the trend way here. Because I would mention that in my check in and be like, oh, you know, my skill weight fluctuated a little bit. And you're like, Yeah, but when you like, look out at the big picture, your trendway is so going down. And that's what we're trying to do here. So it's like, oh, okay, like adjusting my mindset in a way that I didn't even know I was capable. Doing really. So that's

Philip Pape 18:37

awesome. Yeah, that's awesome. Man. That's another great point you made about a trendweight. Now that that's the term we use, because the app we use macro factor uses that term, just for the listener, the person watching all we're talking about as a moving average, right? If you did this on your own spreadsheet, it would be taking a moving average, or even if you weighed yourself once or twice a week, and just looked at it over time. But what Tyler is saying is that if you if you look at your, on any given day, you look at the scale, you could freak out because it could go up by three pounds. Or it could go down by three pounds. And over time. The trend is really what matters, right? So when So speaking of the the weight and the data and the tracking and the macros, you mentioned tracking macros, and you went to intuitive and then we I got you back to that. Yep. When did you start tracking those and why with you or, like ever? Yeah, just more of a general question for the listener. But I mean, like, do you think people should track macros? Why should they do it? You alluded to earlier right, as there's the education and awareness piece, but I mean, is there more to it than that?

Tyla Serro 19:45

So that's a really interesting question. Short answer is no, I don't think everybody should track macros. I think we're probably a very small minority in the world, right? Like the average person probably does not track macros. Um, and I think it goes. So there's so much to this with wellness and health and nutrition, and also mindset. And I think that a lot of people who maybe get into this space or they want to lose weight, there can be a huge emotional connection to that. And it may not come from like, the healthiest of places like if their their goal is primarily I just want to lose weight, I want to look better, like I hate the way I feel or look, I'm tracking macros, if you've never done it before, it could be a really hard thing to do. And the whole point i Well, I'm not a coach, but I would assume as like a coach, you want to help people you want to like create sustainable habits that will work for a lifetime? And is tracking macros, something that you can do for a lifetime? I mean, maybe you can, but I don't think that's really anybody's long term goal. And the average person to I don't know, I don't know if it will work super well for them. But I think you yourself have to really figure out like, Okay, well, what am I trying to do here? And I think you've taught me to see that, like, all this is just data, it's just data. And if you separate the emotion from it, and you're just seriously looked at as like data, because one thing to say to about the app that we use macro factor, with previous coaches and apps that I would use for tracking, I would not be truthful, I would often underestimate or not track things. And then when I would, you know, my coach would see, okay, this is what your weights doing. This is what you're telling me, this is what you logged. I don't know, you know what I mean? It's like I was doing myself a disservice by not being 100% honest. And what I really like about macro factor is like it is you see it live time that it is not in your best interest to not track what you eat. Because if you do that, it's going to think that your expenditure is less than what it actually is. So you should track everything. And if you're not going to track then just don't track for that day. But I mean, I get it depending on like your lifestyle and your your goals, it may not be for everyone, I will say that if you're serious about wanting to lose weight, or gain weight, or understand the data on how all of this stuff does work, it's definitely gonna probably be the easiest way to do to reach those goals. It works.

Philip Pape 22:31

Yep, I like, Yeah, I like how you put that it's the easiest way is, you know, something that seems complicated, or seems inconvenient, or seems like it'll take much time. Once you figure it out, it's a skill, right? Within days, you can start to figure out how to do it pretty quickly. It just takes a few minutes out of your day. Or what Tyler just said, what you just said was, if I interpret it is the structure itself creates the freedom kind of to get to your goals, because now we have information we have understanding. And you talked about expenditure. And just so we can clarify what we're talking about. That's, that's the metabolism. That's the calories you burn every day. If you know what you're eating, and you know what you weigh, you know how much you're burning every day. So your coach, if you if you're working with a coach, or yourself, you know, then okay, this is why I'm gaining or losing weight. There's always a factual reason behind it. And that doesn't mean there's not other things at play, like stress, sleep hormones, especially for women, especially, you know, perimenopause, there are a lot of factors. But you've got to, you've got to rule out all these variables one by one. So I like what you said about macros. My clients all use those. But if someone came to me and said, I really don't have a good relationship with macros, I don't want to do it. Is there another way, of course, there's always an alternative, it's going to be slightly less optimal and slightly less effective from a time perspective. But from an emotional perspective, it might be what the person needs, you know, like, using portions or just tracking protein or something like that. So that's a great point. Yeah.

Tyla Serro 24:08

One thing that I think is, you know, interesting, what was I gonna say? Ah, remember,

Philip Pape 24:14

I'm rambled on. Maybe it'll come back. Okay. Yeah, this, this is a stream of consciousness type deal. We go off on tangents, it's not good. Alright, so let's switch. Let's get some macros. Think about so far. What would you say is your most proud moment on this journey so far?

Tyla Serro 24:34

One actually, like, it's crazy. So it's October now. We started this in July. And there were definitely some hard days and weeks and feeling like and that's the whole thing too is if you're in a caloric deficit, you're eventually going to feel it. You're gonna have nights where like, I'm hungry right now. I need to just go to bed and tomorrow's a new day and maybe I'll make better or day Rent choices. I don't want to say better or worse because it's whatever, but make different choices when it comes to the volume of food that I'm consuming, so I feel a little bit more full tomorrow. So it was, it wasn't easy. It definitely wasn't easy to do it. It took a ton of like discipline and self control and saying no to certain circumstances. Not that I did that all the time. I did I will. I'm not going to sit here and say like, I didn't have any fun this summer I went out I enjoyed myself. I did limit the alcohol though. I would say in total, I maybe had five, five total drinks during this whole deficit. For me alcohols just not a big priority. It's not worth the additional calories. I'd rather have ice cream. So pick your rice, but you can't have it all. Or you shouldn't she's gonna take forever.

Philip Pape 25:51

But you could have some of it. So that's yeah, to the point here. You

Tyla Serro 25:53

absolutely you can you can have like you can't not. And I think that's the whole point, too. It's like, you can eat just about anything in a deficit. You just might be eating less. So

Philip Pape 26:08

you know, for me watching they're eating ice cream now.

Tyla Serro 26:11

For me, I got addicted to like, yeah, so bars, which they're just frozen Greek yogurt. I think they're they range in calories from like, 100 to maybe 150. For the, like chocolate covered ones. They're super, super macro friendly. So those are good ice cream alternative if you are in a deficit.

Philip Pape 26:34

We just started when we say macro friendly mean, high protein.

Tyla Serro 26:37

No, they're not. They're not. Okay, just, they're like 100 calories. So they're probably like 1518 grams of carbs and low fat and probably not much protein. I'm not somebody who ever has an issue with hitting my protein. That's true. I'm always over. Um,

Philip Pape 26:55

which is fine. You can never be too far over the protein is fine. Yeah,

Tyla Serro 26:58

protein can be hard for somebody who's who's not ever tracked it right? Because like, you know, when you think of the average, what does the average person ate for breakfast, maybe a bagel, maybe some cereal, some fruit, oatmeal. None of those things are high in protein. So, people, Americans love carbs. I mean, I'm an American. So I can say that. I don't know what other cultures like they probably like carbs too. Who doesn't?

Philip Pape 27:29

Tyla Serro 28:30

Yeah, it's only been what we'll say like a week. But last week was kind of crazy for me nutrition wise this week. I didn't do it today. But tomorrow, I need to actually like divide, what I like to do is like so take my macros and then divide it by like the number of meals that I plan on having which is usually four or five, and then try to make a balanced meal within those those targets. And I would like to give myself a range. So if I'm like, Alright, I need to have about 25 to 35 grams of protein per meal 35 to 50 grams of carbs per meal, and then that same type of thing, usually probably 10 to 15 for my macros adjust as whatever your macros are, but yeah, I'd say my proudest moments are comm actually completing a deficit losing weight, doing my check ins on a weekly basis, that was something I was pretty bad at with my previous coach. I just, I couldn't they could not get me to do my check in. And I will say if you're not a client of Philips and you're considering working with a coach Phillip has a pretty awesome setup. Also use macro factor. Also get a digital scale like these are all things that you gave as advice and your podcast and I actually took it and I was like wow, this made a huge difference to be able to just step on the scale in the morning and poof it beams to my phone. did have a little bit of issues in the beginning with that I think I don't know what it was maybe As my Bluetooth or something, but it makes it so much easier. And again, going back one of the first things I said when I joined this call was I'm a lazy athlete. A lot of us like to be lazy. I think you even maybe said that that's why you like to make a lot of processes, streamline systems and process. Yeah, exactly, exactly. Because like you want to take the easy or lazy way out. There's nothing wrong with that. Um, and if you make something easier, you're probably more likely to be compliant with it right? If something is hard, you're not going to want to do it. So thanks for all the advice Phillip gave. I hacked my way to make things more streamlined, more easy. So that way, when I do my check in now, instead of it taking me 45 minutes to complete, it takes me 15. And, yeah, one of the apps that you use for clients is super great, because it's like a dashboard. And it's got all your data right there. So if you have like a smartwatch, you can connect that and you can see your step data, your sleep data, your weight, your measurements, progress photos, that's really cool to have the all there. The the previous coaches that I was working with, I had it in like a Google Docs thing. And the thing was, like, over 100 pages long, it was just a mess, it was really hard to like actually compare data points, working with you has made that really easy to do. And it's great.

Philip Pape 31:21

Cool. So I didn't tell Tyler I didn't see any of this stuff about about my coaching. So I appreciate it. Plug. Like make sure to get that in there. But she did. But I do you really hit on a point when you talk about the proudest moment being not just getting the result, which I know everybody wants the result. But the skills that allowed you to hear be compliant and have consistency toward the result, which is something you can carry forward mean for the rest of your life. And that's one thing we all struggle with is doing it and doing it regularly and then continuing to do it. And a coach can help because you know, they poke you and they give you that extrinsic motivation. But of course, you have to do it yourself as well at the same time. And your comment about systems and process and efficiency and tools. Yeah, I mean, we come from engineering backgrounds, we're techies and stuff like that. So we understand sometimes the value of that as long as it makes sense as long as it pushes things forward. So the other the other piece, besides the doing it part is in the accountability is the education. Right? You know, I'm a huge fan of education, awareness. anybody listening or watching knows this. Of helping you understand why we do things, as opposed to saying just do it because I said so. So you can call it evidence based ScienceBase just stuff that works, whatever. What's something you've learned, it was like a big aha moment or something that changed your perspective or mindset about nutrition concepts. Just one thing, you've already mentioned a few. So

Tyla Serro 32:56

I've learned a lot. I feel like there was something Can I just do like a kind of silly this isn't really science evidence based. But it was something really interesting that you taught me when I first started working with you is like, on, like, if it's your thing, it's gonna take too much time to like, weigh out all your food, like weigh your plate, and then just like weigh the total weight. And then I think it was like, subtract out the weight of the plate or something like that. And then you can kind of like, break it apart. Let's say you had, you know, this much protein, this much vegetable, this much carb, you can divide that by what it looks like. And that's a pretty good estimate. So what do you say? Is it 20% 30%? Of what you want to be? 20%? Right?

Philip Pape 33:39

Yeah, yeah. 30 Actually, if you're within 30% Okay, your estimate? Yep.

Tyla Serro 33:43

So that that's something that I learned to that the whole 30% thing, like, you just have to be close, really, and like that'll pretty much work or get you to where you want to be. It doesn't need to be perfect, which is something that maybe my personality type being like type a perfectionist, it's got to be perfect, every little detail. Like it doesn't need to be perfect, you just need to be consistent, and you need to be really consistent. So like something I think you maybe mentioned this in one of your podcast episodes to in the beginning you said like, I don't know if you're just like doing a splash of creamer in your coffee like whatever, don't track it, but you need to be consistent with that if you're not going to track it don't ever track it don't just start tracking it like on Tuesdays you track your creamer I don't really track my almond milk, because I do unsweetened almond milk and

Philip Pape 34:31

like 15 calories for a water Giant Cup. Yeah, sure. Yeah.

Tyla Serro 34:35

So that's something I never really have tracked. I mean, and I still was able to do a deficit lose weight. It was fine. So

Philip Pape 34:46

yeah, like that. These are the all these little hacks and skills they add up. I mean, the the 30% You're talking about just so people know is the it's better to track within 30% than not track at all when it comes to China. Understand your intake. And that's a ton of saying is, if you go to a restaurant, and you have a bunch of food, you don't know what's in it, you kind of eyeball it, or you take a picture. And later on, you just estimate, you know how many grams and split it up by the ingredients. And I think Tyler You were talking about specifically, if you're like at home and you have the plate, you can weigh everything on the plate, so many serves you and then you can weigh the empty plate, subtract the difference, and then divide it. And we're making it sound maybe a little complicated, but it's these are helpful skill when you get into tracking with food skills. Yeah, good. Yeah.

Tyla Serro 35:33

So that was one thing that I learned. I mean, Philip literally does like tips of the day, every day, I don't know, he's got like, a ton of content, because I would try to do that for a few days and run out real quickly. But it's usually like really helpful tidbits of information that sometimes it might seem like, oh, yeah, that's obvious. And then other times, it's like, oh, wow, I had no idea that that's how that worked. And it's just a quick little knowledge drop, that I find really useful. So please keep doing it. I look forward to them. Even if I don't get to read it right away, I usually will catch up on it.

Philip Pape 36:11

Yeah, and what are the tricks, a lot of information comes from, you know, clients, and people watch podcasts. And people ask questions, and it's like, everybody has something they they're trying to figure out. And so, you know, even if 99 People have heard it, the 100th person hasn't. So it's gonna resonate with somebody and help somebody out. That's what we try to do. Awesome. Now, we you can't we touched a little bit on the weekends and the dining out. Maybe we can go a little bit more into the strategy, one or two of the strategies we use for planning ahead. You know, weekend's for you had been and maybe maybe continue to be a challenge because the routine is off. Right. And you're going out, you talked about a little bit earlier today about if you had the charcuterie and what do you do? But what is the strategy we use ahead of time to plan for that, that other other people struggle with this? So what do you think might work in that situation?

Tyla Serro 37:03

Yeah, so I really liked your approach to my struggles with the weekends, because you didn't just one like rain on my brain and be like, You need to stop doing that. You were never, you were always like, okay, you know what, like, these are a few options that we could try. So you came at it with several ideas, which was great, people love choices. You know, even my toddler who's two loves to make a choice, I give him an option, like these are the two shirts you can wear today. And he likes to pick one. So that was great, I was able to choose from several options that you gave, and one of them, the one that I chose was, we can do higher calorie days on Saturday and Sunday. Now, this may not be the most optimal thing for your training, because ideally, you want to have higher food days on the days that you're working out. But we know that like you're consistently not meeting your macros on the weekends. So what we'll do is we'll shift your caloric intake. So Monday through Friday, your calories will be slightly dipped. And then Saturday and Sunday, there'll be slightly higher, nothing drastic, but enough wiggle room so that way, if anything, it was almost just like a mental thing for me, too. So on the weekends, I feel like I don't know I was treating myself or Yeah, sure. Having a little bit more less structure than I do during the week. Kind of Yeah, especially you know, if you've got like a family and you're, you know, the weekend is going to be busy. And you don't want to like show up to all of your events with packed Tupperware man meals. I mean, maybe you're that person and you're dedicated and good for you. But it's hard for me to be that person. I like to enjoy myself. Not that you can't enjoy yourself with a tub or male you absolutely can.

Philip Pape 38:57

Yeah. Yeah, that's a that's a great strategy. If you're listening very, very simple. Strategy, right is to just toggle your calories during the week. And it may not be the weekend for you. It may be Friday, maybe Wednesday, it depends on your schedule. And then we just we kind of joked about it earlier today, that now that Tyler is eating more, and we're going to be even more food shortly for a building phase. I said, why don't we just stop doing that for now because you're gonna have so many more calories, we'll work with you. You may want those calories during the week while you're training to support your muscle growth. So we'll see how that goes.

Tyla Serro 39:31

Yeah, yeah, I'm excited to see how that how that goes. Like you said it's real nice to go from being in a caloric deficit to now eating well, what we're trying to find as my maintenance my husband is actually doing a cut right now.

Philip Pape 39:52

You're gonna overtake him.

Tyla Serro 39:54

And keep joking with all you know, you could have done this a couple of months ago and we could have done this together and it would have been a lot easier because you know At night, he would be eating his snacks. And I'd be sitting there like so sad, oh, I want to have that. And now it's kind of the opposite way around, like my maintenance calories are just below what his like deficit calories are. And he's like, makes no sense.

Philip Pape 40:15

I'm a big guy. So it's two different goals. It's

Tyla Serro 40:19

two different goals. Yeah, yeah, I told them to us, like, just stick with it, or you're gonna be doing it longer.

Philip Pape 40:26

Yeah, and if, and if you're doing it the right way, you're gonna, you're gonna be in a cut for a quarter of the time that you're not or, you know, one a one to three ratio of cutting to building or maintaining, that's the goal, right? So that, like nine months out of the year, you don't have to be dieting, and in the three months where you are, it doesn't have to be that bad. You know, it might be a little tougher the first time you do it, but then after that, it should get better.

Tyla Serro 40:50

I will say to the deficit gave me like a confidence boost in that now that I know I can do it. I actually am excited to like almost take charge be in control of like, my, my fitness my health? Yes. Whereas before, I was kind of just going through the motions of lifting and eating and like, Oh, I've gained like 10 pounds time to dial that in. But now it's really exciting to like, Hey, you just successfully did a caloric deficit, you can do anything. Not that I think I'll ever do like a bodybuilding show or something like that. That takes some serious commitment, dedication, time, money, a lot of things, but it gave me the confidence to say, you know, what, if I actually really did set that as a goal, I could do it? Of course, I could do it.

Philip Pape 41:36

You know, my next question was going to be whether you have confidence in sustaining your results. And you just answered that question. And I love that. Because you said before, it was like, I need to lose some weight. Now, you know, like, we've all been there our whole lives, like look at every now and then you hop on the scanner, like, Ah, well, how did I gain those 10 pounds? Back? And you're in control? And yeah, we might, we might have done it in a kind of process oriented way. But you know what it took to get there, you know what it felt like, you know what you ate on most days? Like, if you had to repeat that without macro tracking? Do you think you could do it? Oh, yeah, I'm asking you that. Like, do you think you could do it without the macro tracking? Now that you've been through it before? Once?

Tyla Serro 42:19

The audio cut out there for a second? But do I think I could?

Philip Pape 42:22

Oh, that's weird. Yeah, do you think you could repeat a deficit now, anytime, with or without the macro tracking, knowing what it feels like what it takes to do

Tyla Serro 42:30

it? Without it? I don't know, Philip, um, I honestly, don't, I hate to say I don't think sorry, that I couldn't. Because I don't want people to think like, Oh, if macro tracking is not for you, like you're never gonna lose weight, I just think it's gonna be a lot difficult. And this actually, I remembered halfway through this point of what I was going to say, a little while ago. What you eat and what you fuel yourself with is in your control, right? You have control over that. Whereas a lot of these other factors that play into like, maybe while you're having a difficult time losing weight, or can't lose weight, like sleep and stress, and hormones, and all those other variables are a lot harder to control than what you actually eat. So if you can just say, You know what, like, I'm gonna make a conscious effort to eat these things. I know, these are gonna fuel me appropriately for whatever my goals are. You can like start there. Whereas like, stress, for instance, like maybe you have a really tough job, maybe you're commuting a lot, maybe, maybe you have like a lot of things that you just have a harder time controlling. Not that those are things that you can't take charge of as well, I think you can do it all. But baby steps you have to maybe the nutrition part of it is the easiest one to actually take control of. Yeah, I like the model like anything is possible. But again, the the tracking macros is just a it's an easy way to take control of the data.

Philip Pape 44:07

Yeah, it's a very effective tool. And I think, if you if you apply planning ahead, which is what the what the macro tracking does, right? Like you've got, you've been through a deficit, you know about what you eat in a given day and how it's distributed. You could conceivably create your own meal plan for that. And in the future, repeat that without necessarily tracking and I just want people to be aware of that. That is a possibility. It might be a fun thing to challenge yourself with future to get off of because what I want people to know is you can get off of macros eventually if you want to. I personally track track macros for a year and a half now and I just like to do it. It's a habit but not everybody is like that. The other things you talked about are the other areas that affect our nutrition that aren't food, right sleep and stress and things and you can't change everything. Sometimes you have to cope. But what you just hit on is everybody's different. Everybody has their own, like red flags and their own priorities. And it may not be food for somebody, but it's often food for for most people, right? So now what about let's talk about lifting for a little bit, you're, you know, You're a strong woman who competes, you'd like to lift. You know, it's not anything I had to worry about educating you about in any way when we met. So how important is strength training to you and your ability to get results?

Tyla Serro 45:27

Oh, it's super important. I mean, that for me, it changed my life. Like, I think back in 2012 2013. I was never like a super athletic person growing up. I played some sports, but I was the type of kid who like on the cross country team, my, my, I wasn't fast, and my friend and I would like run into the woods, and we'd sit on a rock for like, 20 minutes and be like, Okay, it's time to run back. I was definitely not like setting any records or anything like that. I think I tried out for like, the softball team didn't make it. I did cheerleading. No, I'm just kidding. Um, but I never was like, super athletic. And then I did CrossFit for a little while hurt myself. So went to Planet Fitness and did things like that. And I would go on bodybuilding.com. And I would find like workout programs. And I was like, kind of a good squatter, just naturally, people were like, you're built to squat, whatever that means. Um, so I would just go to the gym and squat every day, six days a week. And I got better and better at it. Even though I look back at like, old training videos. When I first started, I'm like, Oh, this is horrendous. But, um, it was really fun. And it built a community for me of people that were like me, and then a friend of mine. I think I mentioned this in the last episode, she invited me to her powerlifting meet. In this, this was in Rhode Island. And I mean, you had women who were like 138 48 pounds, squatting like close to 400, benching close to 200, and Poland close to 400, at like a local meet, which to me, I was like, This is crazy. These women are so strong, you know, they're totaling almost 1000 pounds, what can I do that so I joined a local gym, close to me, and I mean, made lifelong lifelong friends. And I started listening to another podcast to not just Phillips about like, strength and conditioning. And like they, they really, like say, strength is for everyone. And it really is. And that was like, one thing that I like, too is like you didn't have to have like a certain body type, or look a certain way to strength train. It can be really intimidating when you first start going to a gym. Like, I just think of a lot of those like commercial type of gyms, like, like are people there to like, what are they really there for. But in the actual lifting community that I joined, it was really truly people that were just like, hey, we like being strong. And people that really got behind you when they would see you like, lift, big weight for you, too. And it's all the other thing too, that I like about lifting is it's competitive, but like it only really needs to be competitive with yourself. Like you can be competitive with yourself, you can keep getting stronger, you can keep making progress. And it's not like a win or lose sport in that sense. I mean, it can be as you get with more elite, but it's just it's a it's a really fun thing. I love it.

Philip Pape 48:32

It's fun, it's part of what you do. I think it's also of course been instrumental in your ability to get your nutrition results as well, because you've, you know, you make it easier to hold on your muscle and, and prioritize fat loss, which I think is important for people to understand even if they're not doing that a powerlifting level of lifting, just getting that resistance training in on a regular basis. So we're about to start a muscle building phase. First of all, are you worried about getting big and bulky? No. Second, how do you feel? No, yeah, so face.

Tyla Serro 49:07

That's like my biggest pet peeve of all like here, women, people. One thing my previous coach taught me was like, Don't give advice just like it like advice is never free or shouldn't be. Because I've in the past, like tried people have come to me and asked like, Oh, I'm not losing weight, or can you help me like, you're so good at this stuff. And I'm like, I'm really not that good. I'm not certified in any of this. Like I can tell you what worked for me in my experience, but you should really probably work with a coach. And, you know, I feel like every woman says like, I just want to get toned. I don't wanna have big muscles. I'm like, me, I'm like the opposite my I want big muscles. I'm like, it's hard, right?

Philip Pape 49:46

It's hard to get them.

Tyla Serro 49:47

Like, yeah, like I want to be like stronger than your boyfriend or husband. Somebody had a shirt like that the gym was like, I was more than your boyfriend does or something like that. I'm like, Yeah, but I don't know. Maybe that's That's just my personality. Like, I have nothing like I've always and I've never been like a super petite female I weigh my weight normally is like, my adult life has been around like 140 to 150 pounds 150 pounds usually is pushing the like, Alright, I'm not feeling comfortable and my clothes. And I remember I can like remember talking to a coworker telling her like how much I weighed. I was like, Yeah, we're about 145 pounds. She's like, you weigh that much? Which like, don't say that to people. That's not like, like, I mean, I think intent is good, right? But it's like,

Philip Pape 50:36

right? She said, You mean she's saying you don't look like you weigh that much. Do you think oh, oh, that sounds heavy.

Tyla Serro 50:43

Heavy, because I think like maybe the ideal size for a woman is less than that. Which, what whatever that ideal is, you know, you can be somebody who weighs 145 pounds and be like a rock solid, lean muscle, and can be somebody who weighs 145 pounds and be like, not, you know, you could take two people that have the same body weight, and the same height, but like have completely different body compositions. So in that regard, like, weight doesn't matter. I mean, it matters for you individually, because you know, your body knows, like, what is probably a good healthy weight for you to be. And like, I'm not gonna like, I'll just put it bluntly, like being overweight, being obese, not necessarily your BMI. But like, if you are truly an unhealthy weight, like that's not good for your body, our bodies are not designed to carry around all that extra weight. Our organs are not designed to sustain that. You want to live a long, healthy life. Probably see if there's something you can do about that. Maybe.

Philip Pape 51:44

Yeah, I don't think there's anything controversial what you're saying. We talked about this all the time. No, I mean, there's, there's fat shaming and stuff like that, and body and the whole body image thing. That's like a different topic. But when we're talking about just blood pressure, and weight and stress, joints, and all those things, there's a factual component to it. And you're saying, you know, there's a wide range where you can be in a healthy weight, right, and it's different for everybody. And if, honestly, if I was working, I would want every female client that started with me to actually want to gain weight first, but that almost never happens. Because everybody wants to get to what they think is their ideal weight. Even you wanted to lose weight, let's be honest, right? But right, and that's okay, too. I mean, I myself, like I want to be leaner, but then I also have to spend time building muscle. So the building muscles side of it is super important. Because until you do that, you're just you're never really improving your body composition, just kind of oscillating between, you know, there's a good good points, Tyler. Okay, so I think we're getting close on time here. Let's say somebody is listening, they feel overwhelmed about everything we're talking about. They don't know where to start, like, what advice would you give them,

Tyla Serro 52:54

you have to start somewhere. And you have to be serious with yourself. Like, if I think a lot of people struggle with actually setting goals and sticking to them. Don't wait, today is as good as any day. Don't wait until Oh, I'm gonna wait till the New Year. Just start. And even if that's just like, You know what, like, I can't afford to pay for coaching right now. Or, like, there's so much information out there that's free, whether it's a podcast or YouTube or a lot of these people who are coaches that have clients produce a ton of free content on their, their social media pages, their websites, that you if you are truly interested in learning about this stuff that you can consume yourself. And you can probably teach yourself how to do these things. Like I said, In the beginning, it's really not difficult. It's not it's not like super hard to do tracking macros is not a super hard thing to do, it actually makes the whole process easier, you just kind of have to bite the bullet and like, try it and give it an honest effort. And then make the determination after giving it an honest effort, like is this for you? Or is this not for you? Is it working? Or is it not working? And then go from there, but I do think that if you have the means to pay for coach, finding a good coach, it makes a huge difference. I mean, I've been working with a coach now for fulfil up since July or end of June. But before that I was working with a coach for the past like year and a half. So you might ask like why do you why are you gonna keep paying for coach or don't you know all this stuff? And the answer is yes, I do know a lot of this stuff. But the accountability for me personally is huge. So maybe that's what you need to do too. You put money on the line and you're more willing to stick with something and hold yourself accountable.

Philip Pape 54:45

Yeah, I couldn't have said any of that better myself. So I will leave it at that. Tyler's wise words. We've got great information on this podcast and many others. That's how I learned. I did a lot on my own before I decided to go out and be a coach and I also had many coaches myself, and I still have coaches for training. I mean, we all need them many times in our lives and sometimes it helps us accelerate, getting to where we want to get and, and helps us become more educated so that we can be more successful for the long term. So, last thing, Tyler, where can people connect with you or any, any causes that you want them to support?

Tyla Serro 55:20

Sure, I'm mostly active on Instagram, my handle on there's at tireless zero,

Philip Pape 55:25

okay. We'll leave it at that. I didn't lose you today at Tyler zero Instagram. All right. So I'm gonna include that info in the show notes. And I hope anyone watching or listening who feels like you know, what they've done before hasn't worked, that they feel inspired. They feel empowered by your story today. Because I think it shows you know, you can, you can do whatever you want, you can take control, like you said, of the process and your results. And if you're committed to learning, right, if you commit to learning what we're learning about yourself and focusing on it. So you can do it on your own. You could accelerate it with a coach, you can see that someone like Tyler with tons of knowledge or experience she She's competing at a high level, she still faces challenges that we all face, you know, emotional eating, accountability, maybe some direction guidance, those kinds of things. So if you found the discussion helpful, or if you have questions for me or Tyler, just comment on the video, click the link in the show notes, or go to wits. & weights.com, look for the Ask Philip section on the homepage, including questions for Tyler could throw me in there and I'll make sure they get back to her. And we'll get back to you with an answer. So thanks again for supporting the show and listening to Tyler's story. Stay strong. Thanks, everybody. Thanks for listening to the show. Before you go, I have a quick favor to ask. If you enjoy the podcast, let me know by leaving a five star review in Apple podcasts and telling others about the show. Thanks again for joining me Philip Pape in this episode of Wits & Weights. I'll see you next time and stay strong.

Philip Pape 11/8/22 Philip Pape 11/8/22

Ep 31: Hormones and Weight Loss During Perimenopause with Karen Martel

I discuss hormones and weight loss during perimenopause with Karen Martel, a Certified Hormone Specialist & Transformational Nutrition Coach and women’s weight loss expert. She is the host of the top-rated women’s health podcast The Other Side of Weight Loss where she helps women to unlock the mysteries of female fat loss and hormone imbalance.

I am extremely excited for today’s guest, Karen Martel, not only because of her work in women’s fat loss and hormones but her genuine passion for helping others, which comes through on her podcast and in my personal interactions with her.

Karen Martel is a Certified Hormone Specialist & Transformational Nutrition Coach and women’s weight loss expert.

She is the host of the top-rated women’s health podcast The Other Side of Weight Loss where she helps women to unlock the mysteries of female fat loss and hormone imbalance.

After struggling with her own health issues, Karen was determined to bring her knowledge to others with a bold new approach to women’s hormone health and weight management. Karen’s passion lies in helping women balance and optimize their hormones in peri- and post-menopause and breakthrough weight loss resistance.

Topics discussed in this episode:

Hormonal weight loss resistance
Hormone imbalances that cause weight gain
Sugar cravings from hormone imbalances
What happens to hormones during perimenopause
Gaining weight during peri or post-menopause
Foods or nutritional strategy to consider before therapy/supplements/medical advice
How perimenopause affects muscle growth
Safety of bioidentical hormones
When to start using bioidentical hormones
Effect of estrogen on weight gain
Seed cycling (viable strategy for estrogen dominance?)
Determine whether we are processing hormones properly

RELATED LINKS

Take the Hormone Quiz and find out which hormones could be stopping you from losing weight at this link
Subscribe to The Other Side of Weight Loss podcast
Visit Karen's website at karenmartel.com
Find Karen on Instagram
Watch the episode on video here

👉 If you have any questions, just click here.

👨‍💻 HOSTED BY

Philip Pape of Wits & Weights (Instagram 👉 @witsandweights)

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Transcript

Philip Pape 00:08

Karen Martel 01:28

I'm very excited to be here, Philip. I love your audience already, because they're very similar to my own audience.

Philip Pape 01:36

That's awesome. So they're gonna enjoy this conversation. So mine yeah, I'm gonna learn a ton talking with you. So just right off the bat, you know, energy enthusiasm attracted my attention when we connected a while back. And I'm guessing that you've helped many women with that attitude with that approach. So tell us about your background in hormones specifically and weight loss coaching for Peri and postmenopausal women. How did you get into that area? How did what inspired you to help others?

Karen Martel 02:03

Yes, so I feel like I've had like a life long journey with hormones. Like anything that could happen hormonally. I feel like it did to me. Like since a very young age, like pretty much since I hit puberty, it was like, Oh, you want endometriosis? Sure, we'll check you endometriosis. You want ovarian cysts, oh, here you go. You want horrible PMS. They're just like, from a very young age. I was very hormonal, and not in a happy way. It really hit the fan though, when I had my first baby, which I think a lot of women can really relate to this where, you know, you're ticking along. You have your first child. And then it's like, nothing goes back to the same after that. And you're going What the heck just happened to my entire system. And I was young, I was 30. While young ish. I was 33. It was two years after having my child I had lost all the baby weight. And it was it just suddenly I started packing on weight for no reason was actually only about a year and just over a year because I was just on breastfeeding. And that's it triggered something when I had finished breastfeeding. And just started packing on this weight and I suddenly have really bad insomnia and horrible PMS where I would have a migraine for you know, 10 days out of that month, like right around my period. I was super bloated. So I had a lot of digestive problems. I was getting hives on my body and like most women, what did I do at that time? I looked around and said okay, what do you do when this kind of thing happens? I went into the next best diet at the time, which was I think the zone or Atkins, something like that. So I went on to the next best diet was watching my calorie intake. I hired a personal trainer. I started working out like crazy started going to like these CrossFit workouts and like six days a week, I was pushing it hard, probably in the best shape of my life because I was working out so much and like really tough workouts and thinking this is the answer. Eat last workout more, right? This is what I've been told. This is what women still do to this day when they start gaining weight. And I just kept gaining and gaining and gaining and all the problems kept getting worse and worse. went to the doctor was put on the antidepressant the sleeping pills like she didn't even want say anything about hey, maybe it's your hormones. I mean, I'm 33 and this just kept happening and I'm looking around and all these women that I'm working out with who are shredded, doing exactly the same thing that I'm doing and I was probably eating far better than they were. And I was the heaviest I had ever been. And I was like are you kidding me? I switched all to all the diets. I was juice cleansing I was doing enemas. I was like, wow, you know, doing the Atkins the zone. I tried veganism. I did it all. So finally I was like, There's something wrong, clearly. And so I've always been a researcher and I was into hell. So I was like, I gotta dig into this farther and see what's going on. And I talked to a friend of mine who was a naturopath and I said, I think I want to test my hormones. And I said, can you test my hormones for me? And he said, Yeah, come on in. And I ended up doing what's called a saliva test for hormones, which tests what available hormone levels you have in your body. And it also tests your stress response, and like where your stress system is,

Philip Pape 05:41

you said a saliva test. This is just saliva, okay.

Karen Martel 05:43

Yep. Yeah. And so it tests your stress hormone cortisol and cortisol supposed to come up in the morning and then fall throughout the day. And when the results came back, my cortisol was flatlined. So I was down at the very bottom. At that time, it was called adrenal fatigue. Now, it's called adrenal insufficiency. And my estrogen was high. And I had very, very low progesterone, which are our sex hormones. And we can get into that. And I also had a very low DHEA, which is another adrenal hormone, a stress hormone. And that was also tanked. So there, I was highly stressed out, you know, I was the single mother, you know, no help from the Father. I was running my own business at the time, I was a massage therapist. So it was it was very physical on me, I was just go, go go, thinking, I'm not stressed out. I'm doing what every other North American woman's doing. But it clearly was affecting my body. And there, I was starving myself and working out the hardest I've ever worked out, which is exactly the wrong things that I should be doing according to that hormonal profile. And so I did this huge overhaul in my life, because it really just made me take a look and go, Oh, my gosh, I'm way more stressed out than I thought I was like, This isn't right. And so I quit working out, I started doing yoga. So I guess that's considered working out. But you know, which to just yoga, walking, you know, getting more help all of these things, was not a quick fix. I'll tell you that right now. I had to balance those hormones. I later found out I was also very hypothyroid. And so all of these things, and I kept toxic load. And I mean, there's a whole bunch of stuff to this picture that I had going on. And it was like I found all these puzzle pieces, I was able to put it together. And finally my body slowly but surely lost the weight. And then, you know, once again, because Karen gets all the hormonal stuff. I started to go into an early menopause when I was in my early 40s. And so then I went from, you know, having stabilized my weight for almost 10 years feeling fantastic. At that time, I had decided as well, I was like, I can't be the only woman that's feeling this. This is going through this. There's got to be more women out there that are eating right, exercising, doing everything that everybody's telling them to do. But yet they're not losing weight, and they're maybe just gaining. So that's when I went and got my nutritionist certification, started working in weight loss and dabbling in the hormone thing. And then when I hit the early, perimenopause, I was like, you've got to be kidding me. Okay, fine. I'm going to learn everything I can vote, the female hormonal system and what happens in perimenopause and menopause. And I'm going to reverse this. And I did. And I still have my regular period now, and I'm 46 years old. So it's been great. And now I'm helping women all over the worlds fix these problems as far as their hormonal weight loss resistance goes and helping them to thrive in these Peri menopausal years, which can be anywhere from 10 to 14 years. And instead of suffering through this time, I'm giving them the education that isn't out there to help them with their hormonal state as they get through this time,

Philip Pape 09:14

while care. So that's quite a story a lot to unpack. But I was the short version. Oh, no, that's okay. And I get it, you have that and then you have the 20 minute version. I want to I want to break this into phases before we dive into the hormonal weight loss resistance and the perimenopause. Because I do want the listener to realize the process you went through, you know, you you were frustrated from years of thinking you're doing the right thing. You were doing a lot of what we all do, myself included, you know, the Atkins and then it was paleo and then it was keto, and CrossFit, and move more, move more, eat less. And then you you sort of diagnosed what was going on by looking at your hormones. You didn't necessarily go and do a quick fix and try to try to attack it from the hormone perspective directly. You went and said, you know, what are my priorities that I need to straighten? out first the big things that that you know, steps and stress management, yoga, etc. And then see what happens and it sounds like you, you were able to get to a good state doing that. And I want a lot of people to be aware of of that, that that we that is could be the first step we try before we go to anything exotic. And then you said okay now in your 30s I think perimenopause is mid mid to late 30s. And then all the way till menopause, right? So which could be in your 50? So it's a wide range, then you started to have other issues that were isolated to that, once you accounted for the other thing. So kind of two different phases, right? And most of your clients are assuming more on the perimenopause side of the equation. Do you do you work? Do you work with them first on those things, and then move on to the hormones or is there a proven approach you take that kind of blends the two,

Karen Martel 10:51

it depends on where they're at. So, women don't even know that they're in perimenopause. Number one, and most of them have no clue they kind of associate perimenopause with their 50s. They don't realize that perimenopause now typically starts in our mid to late 30s, as you said, and that's just simply we start to lose ovarian function, we see we start to lose ovulation. And so the first hormone that goes is progesterone. And this is, like I said, late 30s, early 40s, we see a real dip, like 75%, in some women in progesterone, and we'll get into what that is. But if the woman is still cycling, and she's in that late 30s, early 40s, there's a lot that you should be doing and that you can do to really mitigate the hormonal loss and the effects of the hormonal loss without jumping to hormones. Now, there's obviously nuances to that, like if somebody's goes into early menopause, premature menopause, then, you know, you can try and really find out the root cause of why is this person losing her period at the age of 40. And there is the oftentimes you can find a root cause it can be from stress, it can be from long term, low carb diets, too much fasting, which is all stressors to our body, especially to the female system. So we can sometimes look and go, Okay, here's what happened, or maybe they had trauma or anything like that can can stop the cycle and stop you from ovulating. So we do look at all of those things. But typically, there's a lot that we can do in those first, that first half of perimenopause that doesn't involve hormones. Once you get to a certain age, Philip, it's really about the fact that your ovaries are no longer functioning the way they used to. And this will happen to every single woman, nobody's exempt from it. And at that point, our ovaries just stop making these hormones. And there's no supplements, no diet, no fitness, nothing that will bring that back. And so it's at that point where you don't really mess around. Like there's tons of awesome therapeutic holistic herbals, and, you know, things that you need to really manage. And this is what I help women do so much as their lifestyle and their stress management and the vitamins and minerals and herbals that can really help ease the transition. But you still need in most cases, if you're as long as you're a good candidate for them, you really, you can't like I say you can't supplement your diet your way out of the hormonal loss, and then it comes down to replacing because replacing the hormones. It actually is healthier for most of us to use hormone replacement than not, is that.

Philip Pape 13:59

Yeah, and I guess I know when I was in the testosterone world, we talk about hormone replacement, the risk being that now you sort of train your body not to produce as much testosterone is that is that not an issue because of the fact that you've just simply not producing it anyway.

Karen Martel 14:15

Exactly. And you do have to be very careful with that in the younger years if you're thinking of replacing because there's certain hormones that have what is called the negative feedback loop where you're telling it's coming from the outside source. Testosterone is one of them where it goes, oh, there's testosterone coming in. I don't need to produce anymore. thyroids. Another one. Interesting enough progesterone isn't. So when you start taking progesterone, it will not suppress ovulation and you can't make progesterone unless you ovulate. And so it doesn't you can still produce your own even though you're taking it from an outside source.

Philip Pape 14:53

I'm fascinated by this topic because I think there's a lot of physiological reasons that people hit plateaus and they struggle to lose weight, including hormones. And I think hormones are a big mystery for a lot of people. And I think you touched on hormonal weight loss resistance. Is there anything else about that concept that we need to understand?

Karen Martel 15:14

I think it's just good to understand that if you are doing everything, right, you're eating right, you're, you know, your stress management, you're sleeping, you're doing all of those really important things that I'm sure Philip talks about. And you're not losing weight 95% of the time, it will be hormonal. And so to make sure that that is looked at, we women are very hormonal, and we have to honor our hormonal system. And with this day and age, with all the toxins in our environment, and the stress factors, majority of women have some degree of hormonal imbalance, especially in their 30s 40s and 50s.

Philip Pape 15:59

And looking at not only plateaus, where, you know, women come in struggling to lose weight, but our our hormone balance is causing weight gain. And maybe that's just a counter a counter force, or other things like sugar cravings and things like that.

Karen Martel 16:15

100% like, you know, you hear these women saying, Oh, I can't control my sugar cravings, and they're doing, you know, emotional support. They're trying supplements, they're, they feel like they're doing so much trying to get control of their eating habits. And sometimes it's just a matter of because they've lost certain hormones, that it's driving the sugar addiction, or driving the anxiety or driving the depression, which then makes them eat the sugar.

Philip Pape 16:44

Yeah, no Are these have We nailed down specific hormones that cause those specific effects, like, I understand things like not female hormones, but leptin and ghrelin, for example, that go out of whack, when we're dieting that affect our appetite. So if we nail that down, well,

Karen Martel 17:01

and so estrogen as we age, we lose it typically later in our 40s, we start losing our estrogen. Estrogen has, it's got receptors in the hunger centers of our brain. So when we lose estrogen we can get so that our leptin signaling becomes off, so we get more hungry. Okay. The other thing is, estrogen helps us to be more insulin sensitive. So as you lose that, now, you're not so sensitive to that blood glucose and you become more insulin resistance, which will drive the hunger and the cravings. And then and also drive insulin resistance to get worse. So there's these kinds of behind the doors, things that can be driving these things.

Philip Pape 17:47

Yeah, it's that cascade, right? It's Yes. It's our interactive. Yeah. So lifted cast. Yeah, all of those. So I've had I've had female clients that talk about, of course, gaining weight period, and post menopause. Oftentimes, it's in the form of visceral, abdominal fat, or perceived to be so I wanted to dive into that a little bit. Yeah, what we know about that, and why that's caused, you know, other than the things like alcohol and and, and other behaviors that we know about hormone related.

Karen Martel 18:15

Yeah. Yeah. So it is the biggest complaint that you'll hear is, oh, my gosh, I just packed on 10 pounds on a solid, my stomach. Very annoying.

Philip Pape 18:26

And it's almost asymmetric. Like, you can't even imagine that that had happened. Because everything else is exactly the same. And all of a sudden, you know, the stomach is gone. Yep.

Karen Martel 18:35

Yes. And so there's a few different things that start to happen, that drive that one is that we become more insulin resistant. And we know that, you know, if you see type two diabetes, one of the markers of that, as far as physique goes is they have a big stomach. The man gets the big, hard, big belly, and the woman gets the softer but still very all the way around like no waistline look to them, which is the same as the menopause belly. So insulin resistance because the loss of fat, it's always too, let me just say, almost always, because of the estrogen loss that you gain, belly fat. It's the driving hormone of that. So we'd start losing our estrogen we become more insulin resistant, which can make it so that we gain it in our stomach. The other thing that starts to happen is cortisol can start to go up in our menopausal years. And we also know that stress, cortisol can cause weight gain in the belly, so that will contribute to it. Your body's super smart and estrogens the most vital hormone in a woman's body. It has over 400 different functions. So when you start losing your estrogen, your body is so smart. It says how can we get out estrogen if our ovaries aren't going to make it anymore, and how is that through our adrenal system and through our fat cells, and so the body goes, Okay, quick, let's put some fat on this woman's body so that we can make some estrogen. And so you'll see women like the heavier they are as they age, typically, the more estrogen they actually have sticking around in their system. Yeah, so even though they have no more ovarian function, they'll still have decent levels of estrogen in their body.

Philip Pape 20:32

So there's a logical way you put that is this is this, what they call adipocyte hyperplasia new fat cell generation, or is this just enlarging of those fat cells

Karen Martel 20:42

enlarging up the fat cells? But I'm not 100%

Philip Pape 20:45

on Yeah, no. Okay. Yeah, here I am. Yeah, so I guess it's. So we're scaring everybody with the hormones. Now let me take a step back. Talk about just quickly food and nutrition before we go down the path again, is there an optimal set of foods or a strategy nutrition strategy women should consider before they go down the path of getting freaked out about all the hormones and the hormone therapy and supplements and medical advice and all that?

Karen Martel 21:13

Yes, yeah. I always say no matter what road you choose in your perimenopausal years, diet has to be the foundation. And I was like everybody else in the world where I was to one extreme to the next. Like I said, I've tried it all. I've been there done that I've done keto I've done carnivore, I've been vegan vegetarian, you know, and get into the diet camp and the tunnel vision of this is the best I'd ever for everybody. And I quickly realized the more women I worked with that how wrong that was. And now I really base everybody's diet plan on what their hormones are doing. And there's certainly some that are better than others that I use a lot more, I've actually created my own kind of diet plan that is very flexible, I tell everyone, they have to make it their own. But because we become more insulin resistant, it is better to be lower carb as when you're in your 40s out of your cyclical years, because we're more insulin resistant and more prone to the weight gain. And so our blood because our blood glucose gets a little bit funny. It's a good idea to go more lower carb, but you want to cycle those carbs. Because too long, too low carb does a lot of damage. And I see these women on a daily basis in my practice, who have heard me on a podcast talk about it. And they're like, that's me. I did keto. And it was so great. And I lost 30 pounds. And then a year into it, I suddenly started gaining and and I didn't change anything and I can't sleep and my hair's falling out. Like I'm telling you felt almost daily, I get this. So we really see this long term effect of what these diets are doing to the female hormonal system. And, I mean, this is a whole podcast in and of itself, so I won't get too far into it. But it's just safe to say you have to be very careful. Because if you're a woman like I was when I was in my early 30s and having all those problems who I was in adrenal insufficiency, I had hypothyroidism undiagnosed hypothyroidism, I was a totally, absolutely burned out. Putting me on a ketogenic diet would have been disastrous at that time, another big stressor. Yeah, another big stressor. And we need the carbohydrates, you know, for those that those hormonal systems thyroid and adrenals really need the carbs, good carbohydrates. So then there's the person that maybe is coming up that's got insulin resistance, or type two diabetes, they might have polycystic ovarian syndrome, there might be overweight, that person could probably utilize a ketogenic diet for a period of time to reverse some of those issues. And then as soon as they can, they can start cycling in some of those good carbs. The other thing is we become more inflamed as we age, and we start losing muscle sarcopenia. So when this starts to happen, we really, really need to upper protein. There's a lot of research around this about the loss of muscle tissue and how you know, muscles a process. It's something like 80 to 90% of our glucose in our body. So if we start losing our muscles, and you talked about putting, there's another reason why you're going to put fat on you losing your muscle tissue muscles process was to process all of our blood sugar. So in that case, you want to be a little bit lower carb because your body's not handling the blood sugar as well. But at the same time, you've got to really increase that profit tene intake to make sure that you don't lose that muscle tissue that can counterbalance weight gain, like nothing else. And so you know, diet has to be the foundation, you can't just hop onto the hormones are very, some can, but most Can we come into our 40s typically not doing our greatest, you know, we tend to start gaining weight, we're highly stressed out, we're, you know, like, it's, it's not, we're not like how we were we're not as resilient as we were in our 20s. Or we could party all night. Yeah, and eat like crap and be fine. And we're not like that anymore. And so you have to be very careful. And so I always say you got to have that foundation, you got to figure out what's going to be best for you, according to your hormonal profile at that time. Because we're more inflamed, we want to do a lower inflammatory diet. So I do lean on the side of paleo. I've personally been paleo for over 10 years, it's just what works for me, I have most of my women on some form of a paleo based diet where we, you know, we do a little bit of intermittent fasting for the blood sugar, we don't overdo it, we increase our protein weekly carb cycle and we calorie cycle so that we don't plateau.

Philip Pape 26:19

Yeah, so I mean, the big message and everything you just said I love it, I agree with with all of that is individualization periodization. And you take it to that next level, by incorporating the hormonal aspect of that, and saying, Hey, for you, as an individual, because of these inputs, and these outputs, we're gonna get the best results doing this. Whereas, you know, the traditional approaches, everyone will get the best results doing this one thing, and you come from a different approach. And I like to have the same conversation that hey, if you if you enjoy keto, if it works for you, and it's imbalanced with your results, then great. That's the diet for you. Maybe you just don't like grains. And so paleo is great, you know, maybe whatever. I've heard of elimination diets being used to which are very difficult for

Karen Martel 27:07

various challenging, but they can be very helpful. And

Philip Pape 27:10

they can be you know, and I've known people personally have done that. And then when they reintroduce things, they can really identify their triggers. So I love all of that stuff. And you started to go on a little tangent about body composition and protein in muscle. And maybe we can talk about that just a little more. Because I think sometimes it's under not given enough attention with all the talk about weight loss and fat loss, especially for women who want to maybe look more toned, have a better physique, and feel better and be stronger and all the things you said about sarcopenia and even osteopenia, and health. So how does, how does perimenopause specifically affect muscle growth? You know, somebody comes in and says just you need more protein, you just strength train. Okay. But that's not the end of the story. So how does it affect that?

Karen Martel 27:58

Yeah, because a lot of women, about 50% of women start to lose their testosterone in their 40s. And we know that testosterone is extremely important for muscle growth, not just for the men. Testosterone is a woman's most abundant hormone, which nobody knows that

Philip Pape 28:19

absolute terms, you're saying in absolute

Karen Martel 28:21

terms, we have more testosterone than estrogen and progesterone. We just don't have as much as a man. But it doesn't mean it's any less important. So we get very much ignored with this from the medical system. It's like to try and find testosterone for a woman is extremely challenging.

Philip Pape 28:44

Hey, this is Philip pape, letting you know that applications are now open for one on one coaching. If you're a busy working professional who has tried dieting and exercising for years, with little in the way of results, anyone to lose fat, get lean or feel confident in your body without excessive dieting, cardio or restrictions. Just go to wits & weights.com/coaching to apply.

Karen Martel 29:08

Men there's clinics on every bloody street corner for them. Oh, you need to start oh my god, here's your

Philip Pape 29:15

Yeah.

Karen Martel 29:17

So as you lose your testosterone, you're gonna lose that muscle, right? Estrogen is is responsible for produce some of the protein synthesis in the system. So when we start to lose the estrogen that can also impact the muscle. There was an really interesting paper that just came out, like literally, I think a couple of months ago by two Australian guys, Robin Heimer. And Simpson, have you heard of them? Remind me I don't think so. They wrote a book called Eat like the animals. Okay. Fascinating. I interviewed them on my podcast. I've read their book and that they from that from their studies in that book, they studied all forms have species and he and then it replicated it in humans. And what they found was human beings will over eat carbs and fat to meet their protein threshold. So this is why we're all constantly over why it's so easy to overeat carbs and fat, because most of us aren't getting aren't eating enough protein. So now we tend to, we're eating far more calories than we need to, because we're trying to meet our protein that this protein intake that we need, as humans.

Philip Pape 30:36

Interesting is that just let me stop you there is that is that simply because you know, in the wild protein is just not as abundant, versus the other sources. And so you have to eat just more a larger quantity overall, to get all the trace proteins to add up all the amino acids from all the different sources to add up to the protein you need? Is that comes from

Karen Martel 30:55

I think so like they even they even like they studied things like grasshoppers and larva. And even in these things that were like, what do you call them? Like amoebas amoebas, like not the organisms, all these single species does this. They'll even cannibalize each other to meet their like some of these insects will cannibalize just to meet their protein intake.

Philip Pape 31:24

Interesting, because I know people make the argument that Why are gorillas jacked when they're vegetarians. And when you look at how much they have to eat every day, they get enough protein that way.

Karen Martel 31:34

100%. So the book starts out where they're talking about in a ring, a tang, who they studied the exact, they measured and weighed everything that went into the monkey's mouth. And they tracked it for like three months, and they realize that that monkey was eating the exact amount of protein every day, through fruits and vegetables.

Philip Pape 32:00

Sure, so we're drawn. So I mean, your point was, we're drawn to carbs and fats. And in the modern, in the modern world, where there are so abundant, that can not be a great thing,

Karen Martel 32:09

while they're highly palatable foods, right? Like, it's like, whoa, give me the fat and carbs together, please like a doughnut, I'm delicious. But they came up with so that they extended their research. And they've been working on this for the last couple years. And so then this is the paper that was just published, where they talk about menopausal women, and the need for protein and how it increases as we age. So as we're, you know, growing up and we're going through our adult hood, there's a certain percentage, we have to meet this threshold, or your body's trying to meet this threshold, this protein threshold, which is I can't, I want to say it's like 15, or 30% 30%, I think it's 30%. And then as you age that increases. And so, you know, you think about all the stuff that I just talked about all this blood sugar dysregulation and you're wanting to eat more, and you're stressed out, your cortisol is a mess, and you're going to be craving carbohydrates, you're going to crave those highly palatable foods, because that's what happens when you're insulin resistant, and you're stressed out or depressed or anxiety ridden because you have two hormones. So not to paint a horrible picture here. I hate being the Debbie Downer with all of this, but just to give you guys an idea of what happens, you know, inside the body, and so that if we're not meeting our protein requirements, as we age, we're going to eat even more than we

Philip Pape 33:35

used to. And you know, I don't think you're a Debbie Downer at all. I think you're highlighting facts that that are just there. You didn't You didn't make them up. They exist and we can do something about it. That's the positive messages. That's what you do every day with people. So get it getting, I guess we're not off track. This is all great stuff. But getting back to the hormones, then I know you talk about bio identical hormones, which I think is the same as natural hormone therapy, but you can correct me if I'm wrong. Are they safe? That that's the first question people might have. Are these safe? They're

Karen Martel 34:07

extremely safe. Yes, there's a lot of bad rap because of the Women's Health Initiative study. And most people don't even know why they're afraid of hormones. But that's why was from that study, even though they never even heard of it. That's where the fear has been stemming from since 2002. So it used to be that it estrogen replacement therapy, which used to come from pregnant horses. It was called primary. It was the most prescribed medication in North America. So every woman was on Premarin back in the 1950s. And on like everybody, it was number one. And then they decided to do this great big study and it was the large one of the largest studies of its kind. That's how big it was. That was billions of dollar. It was like it was insane. There was two arms of the study. One arm was Premarin used with fake progesterone, which is called progestin. And then the other arm of the study was women without a uterus and they were just on Premarin. Okay? They halted this study early two years early, because they saw, they saw a rise in breast cancer cases, not very much. It was very small, like an extra four people out of 100,000. That's how minuscule it was. They saw this increase little bit of the breast cancer, a little bit of heart attack and stroke. And so they were like, Oh, my gosh, hormones, cause breast cancer and heart attack, heart disease, every woman needs to get pulled off of these hormones and kind of word went out to the world. HRT causes breast cancer. And it's never gone back. And there has been several analysis done of that study reanalysis. And what they now see in that study that was not shared with the public was that the arm of the study where the women were on Premarin only had a decrease in breast cancer cases by 34%. Wow. So it was the progestin that caused the increase in breast cancer. And if we look at all of the studies that have now been done, and we kind of collect them together, we see now that women that replace their estrogen having decreased rate of developing breast cancer, and most can't even believe that, because cancer Oh, my God, I'm gonna, you know,

Philip Pape 36:40

it's, you're right. It's one of those scientifically misinterpreted results that has stuck for decades, I guess now, and I'd be really curious to see I'm sure that we can identify the papers or the current papers. Oh, that up? Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Tons. So then, so they're safe. When would women start using them?

Karen Martel 36:59

Yeah. And don't get me wrong. There are a select group of women that shouldn't be on hormones. And this is something that you want to talk to a knowledgeable hormone practitioner and probably not your doctor. Unfortunately, doctors are not trained in bioidentical hormone therapy. So they're going to have that old view most of the time of, oh my gosh, it'll cause you give you breast cancer. But then they'll give you the birth control pill, which is full of progestins. The thing that causes

Philip Pape 37:25

we are not dispensing medical device on this show. Disclaimer.

Karen Martel 37:29

No, yeah. So we're so if you if you're going to choose the hormone route, now we have we're lucky we have the choice of doing what's called bioidentical or body identical hormones. So Premarin, we're not horses. We do not have the same estrogen as horses. And yet that still worked. And it still decreased our risk of breast cancer and osteoporosis and Alzheimer's. And it did a whole bunch of wonderful things for us. But it also had some bad to it too. It did, it does increase the risk of heart attack and stroke, because you have to take it orally. So it has to go through the first hepatic pass of the liver, which increases inflammation and it can increase your risk of heart attack and stroke past 10 years, it can increase your risk of breast cancer. So we don't need to choose that anymore. We can now do bioidentical which is, comes from either yam or soy, and is identical to what your body makes. So your body can't distinguish between what's coming in from a cream or a shot or however you're going to use it, or what your own body produces on the inside. So it's extremely safe. We know I mean, I can go on and on about the benefits of hormone replacement, but we do see a lower risk of developing all types of cancer. If you replace your hormones for at least 10 years post menopause. We see that women there was a great big study out of Arizona where they looked at 4000 Women and the results of that study showed that women that replace their estrogen for five six years or longer had a reduction in developing Alzheimer's and dementia for up to 75% which is huge for something that they say there's no cure for. But you ask a woman how she how her brain feels and menopause when she loses her estrogen and they'll say I can't formulate words. I can't remember I'm so afraid of developing Alzheimer's. Alzheimer's is also one of the highest killers of women right now and it's getting more and more so. So we know that estrogen is extremely important for brain. Progesterone is very counteractive to that estrogen is a growth hormone. So we always want progesterone in there not progestin progesterone in there to counteract growth that also shows protection of the breasts. If you have breast cancer This is where there's some caveats to this, if you have breast cancer, or you have a history of breast cancer, you obviously have to be more careful, because estrogen is a growth hormone. If you've got breast cancer, it can make it multiply. But you have, you should have more fear of drinking alcohol. And eating too much sugar will cause breast cancer before your estrogen replacement in most cases. I mean, like I said, this is not a blanket thing statement. This is, in general, just

Philip Pape 40:30

having a conversation. You know, we're just trying to educate people to look into this. And I think it's great, I think, I mean, if somebody wants to start pursuing their own education about their own body and their hormones, where would they start to determine whether they're processing hormones properly? How can they do that?

Karen Martel 40:51

Great question. So I always say as soon as you can start testing your hormones. So if you're in your 30s, and you're feeling fine, now's the time to test because you really want to see what are your levels at when you feel good? It's good as a baseline. If you're past that, don't worry, it's never too late. But we want to get a really good idea of how does your body take on these hormones? Are you more estrogenic? Are you more androgenic, there's so many things that you can look at, there's also breakdown pathways of hormones that you can look at that can tell you if you may have an increased risk of breast cancer, because of which path your body chooses to break down estrogen, because some are more inflammatory and damaging than other pathways. So if you go to your doctor, your doctor will only test through blood, which will only test what's called bound hormones, and they're bound to a protein. These are not able to be used by the body, they have to get off the protein in order for the cell to use it for it to dock onto the cell. So this is again, probably a little too sciency for

Philip Pape 41:59

the free version, I mean, say versus no, yes,

Karen Martel 42:03

yeah. Oh, yes. And men can get their testosterone free levels tested through serum with no other hormones do the test three levels through serum. God forbid we help women. But you want to see what those free levels are. Because your total levels may look great when you don't have a lot of available hormones to the body. So if possible, you can do saliva, which tests free levels only. Or you can do what's called urine metabolite testing, which is the gold standard, that's going to give you your biggest picture, because it's not only going to reflect levels of free hormones, but it's going to tell you how you're processing all of these hormones, and what hair how are you metabolizing? Which pathways? Are you going down? And there's a lot that we can do with that information.

Philip Pape 42:54

Okay, so the again, you said your urine metabolite, and the saliva based test, which cannot

Karen Martel 43:01

be done through your primary care physician. Yeah, standard doctor, you need to buy that out of pocket. And you

Philip Pape 43:09

mentioned about women's health. I'm sure we could do an entire episode about the history of gaslighting and women's health, if you want to call it that. Yes, I yeah, I've done them. sympathize and empathize with that. So kind of, I guess third to last question. Sec. Asking for a friend. What do you think of the concept of seeds cycling? I think the intent is to minimize the fluctuations in hormones from cycle to cycle, but I'm not entirely sure what the purpose is. So is there a merit to this strategy?

Karen Martel 43:39

Yes. So seed cycling is actually used to help promote different hormones to help them come up, levels come up. So it's based around you, we want estrogen in the first half of the cycle. And we want more progesterone in the second half of the cycle. I actually have seen seed cycling work really well to help balance a woman's hormones and help with PMS, when they're cycling. So if you are a cyclical woman, not in menopause, this can help and remember what I said like we can't, we can't see it our way out of hormonal loss, just like we can't diet our way out of it. Same goes, right. So if you are in your 30s, and you're still got a cycle, seat Cycling is a really great way to help balance those hormones. You eat certain seeds in the first half of the cycle, and then you eat other seeds in the second half of the cycle like pumpkin and sunflower, sesame. And flash.

Philip Pape 44:41

Yeah. Yeah, pretty cool. And it's an easy, it's an easy thing to do and try it. Yes, yeah.

Karen Martel 44:47

Yeah. And there's all kinds of herbals and stuff like there's so much you can do in those early years that don't contain hormones. Right.

Philip Pape 44:54

Okay, so the penultimate question I like to ask this of all guests is well One question Did you wish I had asked and what is your answer?

Karen Martel 45:04

Oh, okay. I wish he would have asked, I'm not like dying for you to ask me a question. I don't think

Philip Pape 45:12

we covered so much. No, we

Karen Martel 45:14

really did. I mean, I can go off on so many different tangents. Okay, how about this is there light at the end of the tunnel for menopausal women because I do tend to tell you all this negative stuff, and women kind of go, Oh my gosh, like this sounds like it's horrible. And I don't want to be part of this. Like, we'll be going through this, this is all just negative. What I'll tell you right now, number one, there's, there's something that you can do. And that's what we've talked about here today. This is going to arm you with information and education so that you can go out and take action and do something about how you feel. There's so much that you can do to get through this time, low to no symptoms. I mean, I've seen women transform their lives just by replacing their hormones, where they're like, oh my gosh, I feel like I've come alive again, my libido is back, my skin's back, my hair is growing better, I feel better, I've lost weight, like, the list just goes on and on and on. This can be the best time of your life truly, honestly. I mean, we are told everywhere we look as women that we are not allowed to age, and you've got to ignore those things. Because aging can be the best thing ever, let me tell you this is when you're going to hopefully be the wisest. In your years, you're more confident with who you are, you're just like your kids have grown up or they're growing up, and they're not so needy anymore, you've kind of decided on the husband, whether he's staying or going or your wife, whatever you choose, you know, like this is when you really get to know who you are, and you start to put yourself first for the first time in your life, you put yourself first in most cases, women, you know, we try it, we get married, we get the career, we have the children, it's all about that. And then suddenly you hit your 40s 50s 60s and beyond. And it's like, oh, now I get to live for me and put myself first and it's a beautiful, amazing time. And so cherish it and make sure that you feel your best don't just survive this time, thrive during these years, and you can thrive during these years.

Philip Pape 47:29

That is a great way to end I love that don't just survive, but thrive. And I do want to give you the opportunity. Last question, Karen, after this amazing conversation. Where can listeners learn more about you and your work?

Karen Martel 47:43

Yes. So Karen martel.com is the website, you can find me on all the social accounts at Karen Martell hormones. And then of course, my podcast. I think that that's probably one of the best sources of information I talked a ton about wage and hormones and everything and everything else. It's as it's always number in the top 100 of the nutrition podcasts on iTunes, we do really, really well we've reverted top 20 Weight Loss podcasts of 2021. So it's great. And then I also on my website, you can take my free hormone quiz that tells you what your top hormone imbalances could be and which what could be stopping you from losing weight. And it comes with a nice eBook about some strategies that you can get started on right away, as well as a two week free hormone and metabolic meal plan, which is what I talked about earlier, where we cycle the carbs, we cycled the calories and you can kind of get an idea of how to eat that way. So that's all free. And you can get that over at Karen martell.com.

Philip Pape 48:49

Awesome. A lot of information. I think this for the listener the name of her podcast is the other side of weight loss, which you can go right now and download it very high quality podcast, lots of great information. And we just scratched the tip of the iceberg here. So I'll throw all that in the show notes so listeners can find you and Karen this was eye opening, very valuable conversation and I really thank you for coming on the show.

Karen Martel 49:11

Well, thank you so much for having me and I'll come back anytime Phillip.

Philip Pape 49:14

Absolutely love to have you. Thanks for listening to the show. Before you go. I have a quick favor to ask. If you enjoy the podcast. Let me know by leaving a five star review in Apple podcasts and telling others about the show. Thanks again for joining me Philip Pape in this episode of Wits & Weights. I'll see you next time and stay strong.

Philip Pape 11/1/22 Philip Pape 11/1/22

Ep 30: Stop Overeating, Binge Eating, and Obsessing Over Food with Dr. Glenn Livingston

I discuss overeating and binge eating with Dr. Glenn Livingston. Disillusioned by what traditional psychology had to offer overweight and food obsessed individuals, Dr. Livingston spent several decades researching the nature of bingeing and overeating in working with his own patients AND a self-funded research program with more than 40,000 participants. Most importantly was his own personal journey out of obesity and food prison to a normal, healthy weight and a much more lighthearted relationship with food.

I’m excited to have Dr. Glenn Livingston on the show today, especially because of his incredible work and useful strategies on emotional and binge eating.

Dr. Livingston is a veteran psychologist and was the long time CEO of a multi-million-dollar consulting firm for Fortune 500 clients in the food industry. You may have seen his (or his company’s) previous work, theories, and research in major media outlets like The New York Times, ABC, or CBS radio, among many others.

Disillusioned by what traditional psychology had to offer overweight and food obsessed individuals, Dr. Livingston spent several decades researching the nature of bingeing and overeating in working with his own patients AND a self-funded research program with more than 40,000 participants. Most importantly was his own personal journey out of obesity and food prison to a normal, healthy weight and a much more lighthearted relationship with food.

Topics discussed in this episode:

Glenn's personal story with overeating and binge eating
Why the modern world is a perfect storm for overeating and binge eating
Practical strategies people can use to stop overeating
Starting with just ONE rule for the most troublesome trigger food or behavior
Why rules and a personal food plan are liberating, not restrictive
Why generalizations like "just eat everything in moderation" are not helpful
Why we should strive for perfectionism (with a caveat)
How someone trying to GAIN weight would use this approach
The difference between HUNGER and CRAVINGS
Challenging clients and situations that required a more intense approach
Dealing with overeating on the weekends!
The one thing Dr. Livingston wished he learned earlier in life
The one question Glenn wished I'd asked...and his answer
Where to get a copy of his free book, "Never Binge Again"

RELATED LINKS

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👨‍💻 HOSTED BY

Philip Pape of Wits & Weights (Instagram 👉 @witsandweights)

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Transcript

Philip Pape 00:08

Dr. Glenn Livingston 01:31

Thank you so much. It's nice to be here. And looking forward to it.

Philip Pape 01:34

Likewise, I think it's going to be a great conversation. And to start off, since we are going to explore the topic of overeating and binge eating. What is your personal connection with this your personal story with overeating? What inspired you to become an expert in the area?

Dr. Glenn Livingston 01:49

Where do you live? Phillip?

Philip Pape 01:51

I live in Connecticut.

Dr. Glenn Livingston 01:52

Okay. My mother was in Danbury, Connecticut. And what was the name of the store, there was a deli there. It's right off Route, maybe for exit nine. And if you happen to stop there and find that they were out of pizza or pop tarts, I was probably there before you. So I have a very personal connection with overeating. It I'll try to encapsulate it a little more concisely. But when I was 17, or 18, I figured out that if I worked out hard because I'm six, four and just genetically lucky, little bit muscular. That worked out for a couple hours a day, I could eat whatever I wanted to like literally five 6000 calories a day and boxes of pizza and boxes of muffins and multiple chocolate bars. And if it wasn't nailed down, and then it was mine. And I thought that was great. It wasn't a problem. It was more like a superpower like Doug Graham says. And that worked for me until I was 22 or 23 years old. And I was married. And I was commuting several hours each way every day to go to graduate school and see patients and take classes. And then we get home and we'd have to work on the business a little bit. And God forbid my ex wife wanted to talk to me it was I just didn't have the time to work out. And so I discovered though that the food had a hold on me a life of its own. So I kept eating like that. And slowly but surely I got heavier. And my triglycerides went to well over 1000. And the doctors were yelling at me that, you know, I probably wasn't going to see 30 or 35 if I kept going like this and their heart attacks up and down the line of my family. And you know what, what bothered me the most though was that it interfere with my work, because I'm from a family of 17, psychotherapists, my mom and my dad and my grandparents and my aunts and my uncle, everybody, my grandmother. And so what was always most important to me was being a really good doctor. And I found that I just couldn't be totally present with my patients. And the thing is that psychology is not so much of an intellectual clinical psychology isn't really so much of an intellectual endeavor. I mean, you got to know a lot of stuff. But it's not like people come in and they present you with the puzzle of their life. And you say, well just rotate this here and you're missing this spot here and they go brilliant, brilliant doc, I'll get right on that. That part is actually relatively easy. Within you do a little bit of studying within a couple of sessions, you can kind of figure out what's going on with people. What's really hard is getting them to love and trust you enough so that they're willing to think new thoughts and go outside of their comfort zone and do new things. And to do that you have to learn them your soul, you gotta be right there with them. And I wasn't I was thinking, you know, sitting with a suicidal person thinking when can I get the next pizza? And I never lost anybody. Thank God, but but I wasn't fully there and that's what bothered me we're going anything and And being from the family I was from I went to very traditional roots. And I figured I must have a hole in my heart, a metaphorical hole in my heart. And if I could fill that hole in my heart, then I wouldn't have to fill the hole in my stomach. And so I tried to love myself then for lack of a better phrase, and nurture my inner Wounded Child, I went on a kind of spiritual journey, I went to, you know, doctors and healers and Overeaters Anonymous and took medication for a while and, and I don't regret it, because I feel like it enriched me and made me more compassionate person made me a deeper person as part of who I am today. But it didn't really help with the binge eating, or we get a little better when a lot worse, a little better and a lot worse. And it was up and down and wait, but like, gradually up, up, up, up. And what really helped me and was flipping the paradigm. And there are a number of things that happened that caused me to flip the paradigm from love yourself, Finn, to no be the alpha dog of your own brand. And kind of like a tough love approach. What what happened was, my ex wife was traveling for business all the time, she was a focus group, moderator and I had this extra time on my hands to start a second career. So because I didn't commute, and we didn't have kids. So I started consulting for big companies. Also, a lot of big companies in the food industry. I was on the wrong side of the war, I was like a hidden first wave sweater and advertising research. And I regret that I'm trying to make up for it now. But but

Dr. Glenn Livingston 06:38

but I saw that what they were doing was throwing billions of dollars. To have all these rocket scientists engineer, these hyper palatable concentrations of starch and sugar and fat and excitotoxins, and oil and salt and, and it's all aimed at reaching the bliss point in the reptilian brain stimulated the bliss point in the reptilian brain, without giving us enough nutrition to feel satisfied, which creates addiction, you know, and then every time you're looking for love at the bottom of a bag, or a box or a container, there's some fat cat in a white suit and mustache that's laughing all the way to the back.

Philip Pape 07:15

Yeah, yeah. So those are the you never, you can never stop it. Just one, right? You can never eat just one. That's the food science industry. But it's hard.

Dr. Glenn Livingston 07:22

It's hard. They actually, besides the food science, there's the advertising. And people think advertising doesn't affect them. But it affects you more when you don't think it affects you because your cells resistance is down. And not only does the food science stimulate the bliss point in the reptilian brain, without the nutrition, so you want more and more and more. But it turns off your ability to know when you're full. It actually physiologically turns off some of the sensors in your body, a lot of them do to know when you're full. And they press other evolutionary buttons that you don't even know that you have, like, you know, when, when a bag of chips is engineered, it's usually not from a unitary assembly line, usually multiple assembly lines with slightly different flavors, just very slightly different micro differences in flavor. Because your brain is wired to look for diversity, because a diversity of different flavors should be a diversity of different micronutrients. So you keep going and going and going when you encounter. So there are lots of things like that, that go on that just keep you eating. So I said that's an external force, the advertising industry, they're good at faking us out. Also, for example, it was working with this food brand manufacturer, who shall remain nameless, so don't get sued. And the VP kind of hung his head in chambers, he was leaving the company and told me, you know, Glenn, the most profitable thing we did was to take the vitamins out of the bar, because they were too expensive. And we could put the money into the packaging instead. So they made these diverse, multicolored, vibrant packages, which looks like the rainbow in nature, like you're supposed to eat the rainbow because when you find a diversity of colors, you're also red, red tomatoes, green lettuce, blueberries, yellow carrots, you're reading a diversity of micronutrients. So there are buttons in the reptilian brain that says, go for the rainbow. But in this case, they were pressing those buttons, but taking the nutrients out. And so I said to myself back to your original question. These are two very powerful external forces. You know, the advertising industry and the big food industry that have nothing to do with the fact that it was in a bad marriage had nothing to do with the fact that my mom didn't love me enough where she dropped my on my head when I was a baby and her mother dropped her on her head when she was a baby. It has nothing to do with my personal psychology. It's just a very powerful external force pressing on the reptilian brand. Furthermore, when I started to study neurology a little bit and just just a little I'm known enough to be dangerous, but But I discovered the reptilian brain doesn't know love. Like if this Is the reptilian brain when it looks at something in the environment, it says, Do I eat it? Do I meet with it? Or do I kill it? It's like a bad college drinking game, eat made or kill. On top of that, is the mammalian brain, which says, Wait a minute before you eat meat or kill that thing? What impact does that have have on your tribe and the people that you love? And then there's the neocortex that says, Before you eat meat or kill that thing, what impact does that have on the person you're trying to become on your long term goals, on your fitness, your training, your weight loss, your health in general, and who you want to be in the world. So this thing here doesn't know love? Yet, I'm spending, I must have spent two and a half decades trying to love myself in. So I said, Okay, this is more a matter of controlling a bodily organ than solving a psychological problem. What's it's hard for me to admit as a psychologist from the family that I was in, but since it's more a matter of controlling a bodily organ, I already control my testicles. And my, my, my bladder, right? If if I had to pee really, really badly, right now, if my bladder was pressing me to go pee, I would say, Look, I'm talking to Philip, we have an agreement to talk for an hour or so. And I'm going to have to get to you later. We'll just have to hold it. I don't really have to pee now. So you don't have to worry about

Philip Pape 11:17

it. No, I'm not worried.

Dr. Glenn Livingston 11:20

Same thing with your testicles. Right? Like, if there's a really pretty woman that I've seen in the beach, I know we're running out to kiss her right away. Actually, don't do that. Anyway, because I have a girlfriend and I'm kind of shy anyway. But but you know what I mean, there are civilized ways of going about this. And I have to credit champ, Jack trampy, of rational recovery, who wrote about this kind of thing for kind of putting this together for me. And I said, Well, why can't I control this organ and the reptilian brain that says, you know, just hand over the chocolate and nobody gets hurt? It's it's a misfiring of the survival drive. stimulated by industry. Why can't I control that same way. So here's what I did. It's a little crazy, it's going to sound less than sensitive, I promise you, this whole thing comes together into a system that's very compassionate and loving. But it's gonna sound a little crazy at first, I decided and I was not going to take this public. It's just an experiment on my own, that I had to know when the reptilian brain was active in order to stop it. So I have had very clear rules like a very clear line in the sand. So I knew when this reptilian brain was trying to get me to cross it. So I'd start with something like, I will never eat chocolate on a weekday again, and never have chocolate Monday to Friday, only on a Saturday or Sunday. Because then if I'm at Starbucks on a Wednesday, and I hear this voice in my head that says, you worked out hard enough, Glenn, it's going to be no big deal to just start again tomorrow. Start your silly diet tomorrow, go ahead and have some chocolate, you're not going to gain any weight. I would say, wait a minute, that's not me. Here's the crazy part. That's my inner pig, and called me my reptilian brain, an inner pig are kind of, you know, fictionalized it. Chocolate on a Wednesday is pig slop. I don't eat pig slop. And I don't like farm animals tell me what to do. And as ridiculous as that sounds as crude as that sounds, it would wake me up with a moment of impulse and give me a few extra microseconds to make the right choice, which I wish I could say I always did right away, but I didn't. But it just it cleared away the muck, I no longer thought I had some chronic progressive mysterious disease, I didn't think I had some psychological problem that nobody was able to get to. It's just like, my reptilian brain was active. And now I was waking up. So I had to get better at waking up, I had to get better at turning off the lizard brain. We've talked a little bit more about that in a little bit. And then I had to adjust the rules, so that I found rules that I wouldn't could follow. Which was easier than I thought it would be. Because nobody was telling me what to eat. I was deciding myself. And they said, well, one of the most important thing is that I make rules that I can follow. What is the most important thing is that I prove to myself that I'm dominant over this stupid bodily organism ruining my life. And then after that, I'll deal with losing weight.

Philip Pape 14:10

Yeah, so I want to unpack a lot of this because I really love the connection you're making. So a lot of people think this is a behavioral thing, a psychological thing, right? Like you said, there's some deep way to solve this with love or something else. And I like how you separate the primal from the psychological reminds me of a study I can't tell you who did it wasn't wasn't too many years ago, where they had the two groups basically locked in a in a room as part of the study and one group was asked to eat processed food and one group was asked to eat more whole foods. And they were basically left to their own devices to eat till they were full. And the group eating the process food ate about 500 calories more a day than the other other group, which which supports what you're saying because every single person in that group eating more calories because they have some, you know, emotional or psychologic The goal, right? Or is it, you know, the external force of making this perfectly delectable, highly palatable food that we just can't, can't resist, or we think we can't resist, which then leads to what you're saying is, if we're aware of that, and if we can name it, and we can then give ourselves our own rules, as opposed to following Peter, or following this or following that diet. I think it's matter. It sounds like it's a matter of self control. It's a matter of maybe a little bit of work, right, a little bit of thinking and thought and planning ahead of that, which I really love. And I think people can act on I mean, that's the key. It's not this years of what do I do? I'm so overwhelmed. Sounds like taking really act on this. Yeah. First, and I haven't read in your book, never binge again. So I'm gonna plug that for people. Where you talk about the food plan, you talk about the food rules, and you do mention this one rule for the one trigger foods. It sounds like, it sounds like that.

Dr. Glenn Livingston 15:54

With start with one simple rule. Yeah, what happens? My understanding is that overeating and particularly binge eating, but overeating in general, is a misfiring of the feast and famine response in the reptilian brain. It's this. It's this emergency response system that that was used to having evolved in an environment where food was not plentiful. And so when you came up on the harvest, or the catch, that would say, you better horrible you can. And what happens is, most overeaters are also good dieters, and so they keep themselves in this steady state of feast and famine. So there is an old nursery spring that says when she was good, she was very, very good. But when she was bad, she was hard. That's how most people live with their eating. Like they say, Well, I'm unplanned now. Screw it, I'm totally off plan, I'll start this again. And you want to beat that. And the way that you start to beat that is don't set the bar too high, come up with one simple practical thing that you could and would do, that doesn't feel too burdensome, so that you can experience success, I'll always put my fork down between bites, I'll never eat after seven o'clock, I'll never go back for second some, something you couldn't would do. That would make a really big difference. But it's not, it's not going to cause you to lose all the weight in 30 days, it's not going to totally fix all your health problems, it's just going to get you back into control and prove that you can do this thing.

Philip Pape 17:17

So So going on that example, let's say alcohol is your problem. Just for an example. You drink drink too many drinks on the weekend, would would that first step be to have fewer drinks? Or would it be have none? I mean, which how? I don't want to say extreme Do we go but where does the rule make sense.

Dr. Glenn Livingston 17:32

So I prefer when it comes to drugs and alcohol that people use Rational recovery or, you know, though, those specific techniques, because first of all, he's been developing this for 20 years specific to drugs and alcohol, and it tends to work better, my system is more forgiving. In other words, people tend to make more mistakes with food. And you can't really afford to make mistakes with drugs and alcohol, you might get behind the wheel and car to killer games. And when that said, people do use this sometimes for moderating their alcohol. And you know that

Philip Pape 18:11

Yeah, and that wasn't referring just everybody knows I'm not referring to alcoholism, specifically, I'm just talking about the average client that might drink a little bit on much on the weekend.

Dr. Glenn Livingston 18:19

So what typically happens with alcohol and food is that alcohol is a disinhibitor. So it makes it harder to follow your rules. And what I what I find is that with women, they'll tell me that if they have more than one drink at a meal, that they aren't able to follow the rules. And men will tell me that if they have more than two drinks at a meal, they're not able to follow their rules. So I said, Well, why don't you make a rule that says, I'll just have one drink at a meal or drinks? And yeah,

Philip Pape 18:45

yeah, so So speaking of rules, right? Some people might listen to this immediately. And I'm sure you you've always gotten this reaction that rules are themselves restrictive, and maybe cause people to binge I see the value in planning ahead. Mainly to avoid making decisions in the moment, at least that's the value I see in rules is having guidelines to avoid decisions, or, you know, spur the moment decisions. So what would you say to those who think rules are overly restrictive, or there's a danger in distinguishing good from bad when it comes to foods?

Dr. Glenn Livingston 19:14

So I have a lot of thoughts about that. And there is a whole philosophy of overcoming overeating, that says that making rules makes you feel too rebellious. And the cause of every binge is a restriction, even a mental restriction. And I will say that it's possible to make rules that overly restrict your food and you don't want to do that. So I think of rule is kind of like a good sharp kitchen knife. You can use them to chop vegetables or you can use them to kill your neighbor, and you shouldn't use them to kill your neighbor. Right? You could be you could also be self destructive with it. There. The idea of just learning to eat more mindfully is important. People eat less when they eat mindfully. There's some studies that say you are absorb more nutrition. If you eat mindfully, it's good to eat mindfully. But relying on that solely as a mechanism of overcoming overeating, I think is a mistake. The people that I talked to who have more or less done that, they still complain that they're not eating healthy enough, they would like to be eating healthier, but they're scared to to draw the line between healthy and unhealthy foods. And I'll say, Well, you know, do you know that there's flavored cardboard in the food system, like there's like, if you've seen some of the things these companies do, you wouldn't be. And at some point, you have to stand up and say, I opt out. That is a bad food that is an unhealthy food, I choose to eat healthier foods. And I'm not saying you can't indulge in processed foods, sometimes most of my clients two or three of them, they wind up making rules to moderate the food, like, I'll have no more than one bag of chips, and not more than, you know, every two days. Most people, that's what they do. But in the absence of rules, I don't really see how you can work it out to be mindful all the time. We don't live in a world where you can be mindful all the time. It's kind of like driving. When I'm driving around town. I'm mindful, I am. I'm daydreaming a little bit. Also, I am maybe listening to some music or a podcast or something like that. But I stopped at the red lights. And I'm thankful that the red lights are there, because there could be a guy coming in the other way, you know that those those rules protect me. And they actually expand my freedom, they don't contract my freedom to make it possible for my radius of locomotion to go farther. The other thing about that statement that creating rules is too much of a mental restriction. It's based upon the idea that it's going to stimulate your Inner Inner rebel. And it's true that it will, it will make you feel rebellious, you make a rule that says I want to have never have chocolate on the week, during the week again, watch yourself every time you go into a Starbucks, there's going to be a little voice in your head that says, Oh, my God, give me the chocolate. You have to be kidding me. Right?

Philip Pape 22:07

And you're gonna see the chocolate more than you've ever seen it before. Yeah,

Dr. Glenn Livingston 22:10

for a while, for a while, after a certain period of time you go through an extinction protocol, and your reptilian brain doesn't jump at that anymore. Because the brain is very efficient. It does not want to waste energy. So when it recognizes that this is a craving, you never get into, it stops, it stops the craving, we don't crave things that we're never gonna have. It just

Philip Pape 22:33

Yeah. And I love that concept, the extinction protocol, which sounds like a habit. I mean, that's what I would turn it into. Well, there's a lot of research into that. Yeah, I love that. Yeah,

Dr. Glenn Livingston 22:43

yeah, it takes 30 exposures or so to the, to the offending stimulus. And a couple of little bursts of cravings, like, people think it's just gonna go straight down like this, but it actually goes through a honeymoon period, then you get some significant cravings, then it goes down, then you get a little craving and, and then it just kind of trails away. I have offered the point that I never eat chocolate, I don't we didn't have a rule about it. I just became someone who doesn't eat chocolate, and I don't, I don't crave it. I don't think about it. I just I'm just I'm just someone who doesn't eat chocolate. But what I was going to say is that the essence of recovering from overeating is making the decision to move your important food decisions from emotions, whims and impulses, to your intellect. Now, rebellious ness is just another emotion. So you could feel angry, you could feel depressed, you could feel lonely, you could feel anxious, you don't have to overeat because of those feelings, you can sever the link, you're gonna have those feelings, but you can sever the link between those feelings and overeating. Just like a really good fireplace severs a link between the fire and burning down the house. Right? The fire can keep burning, you can still have all the emotions in the world. But it doesn't have to get out of the fireplace, it doesn't have to burn down the house, you can be as rebellious you can feel as rebellious as you want to. But if you don't eat chocolate, on a weekday, then you don't eat chocolate on a weekday. So I don't see it as any different than that. And I really see the ultimate goal is learning to control your important food decisions with your intellect rather than your emotions and impulses.

Philip Pape 24:21

Yeah, so controlling with your intellect would then probably go counter to some of the old saying either there's an adage just eat everything in moderation. For example, I hear that a lot.

Dr. Glenn Livingston 24:33

Yeah, well, I mean, what they'll say is eat well 90% of the time and indulge yourself 10% of the time. For things that have not established themselves as to Addictive a pattern. You could do that but for the things that are too addictive for you. It's going to be difficult because first of all, the cravings are very, very strong. They're artificially inflated by food industry, but they're very, very strong. It was a matter of habit. And secondly, when you say well, 90% of the time and indulge yourself 10% of the time, you don't have a vehicle for deciding, which is the 90% and which is the 10%. So you're forcing yourself into a situation where you have to make food decisions all day long. If I say if I say I'm just going to have chocolate 10% of the time, it's great in theory as a guideline, but every time I walk into Starbucks or any place that there's a chocolate bar, I have to make another chocolate decision. And willpower is the ability to make good decisions. Unfortunately, that ability is not like a genetic given where some people have it or they don't. It's more like gas in the tank, and you wear it down all day long as you make decisions, which is the reason that your decisions are better in the morning than they are in the evening. So if you create a rule that says I'll only have chocolate, on a weekday, I only have chocolate on a weekend that I've made all my chocolate decisions during the week, I don't have to burn my willpower all week long.

Philip Pape 26:04

Dr. Glenn Livingston 27:03

you know, I know a woman who was traveling and her business required her to eat at a restaurant three times a day for three months. And the way she worked it out, was to never step foot in a restaurant, unless she'd written down and tracked exactly what she was going to have beforehand. So she kept herself out of the environment of temptation, unless all of her decisions were met. And so the tracking, the tracking was a willpower preservative that she and she was perfectly fine, she's perfectly fine like that. If you have a rule that you write down your calories, or macros or nutrients before you eat them, it inserts a pause between stimulus and response. And it gives you a little bit more control. And it at least forces you to make the decision before your taste buds are stimulated. And you're right in front of all the smells and everything like that. So it kind of depends how you use it, some people use it after eating. And that kind of gives them a sense of control and help help them with the decision making. But it doesn't obviate the need for decision making in the first place. So it's a good tool. People sometimes get tired of tracking and so there are other tools you can use. Yes, awesome.

Philip Pape 28:19

happens for sure. And the example you made about pre logging, that's the term I use has been helpful to people, I've seen it work a lot where things have maybe lately been going out of control on the weekends, and all of a sudden, you're just not sure how you're going to stay there. And we say Okay, tomorrow, for tomorrow, I want you to think about everything you're going to eat, pre log it in your app, and then execute the plan. And that usually works for a lot of people. So it's a great

Dr. Glenn Livingston 28:45

event. And you think about it, like, you know, there's general Glenn that plans it all out. And then there's private limits, there's the application not to question why are yours to do or die, right?

Philip Pape 28:57

Yeah. And actually, we apply the same thing to training, you know, plan out your sets, your reps, your exercises, and then go in and execute and then you know, you're gonna, that's what you're gonna do. So, I again, I've been reading your book, and there was a quote in there. And it's related somewhat to some things we've touched on already. You said, quote, you must authoritatively declare your food plan as 100% Perfect, or you're not committing to anything at all. And then you expound on pre the pre and post binging context, and we just touched on the pre, you know, doing things ahead of time. But can you elaborate on that philosophy of perfection?

Dr. Glenn Livingston 29:30

Yeah, most people think that perfectionism is a bad thing, and that we have to strive for progress and not perfection. That's true, and it's not true. It's only true in context. If you made a mistake, then beating yourself up and saying, Well, if I'm not perfect, then I'm nothing and I'm, I am pathetic. I can't possibly do this. Your pet your pig is going to jump in and say, therefore, you might as well just binge binge binge binge binge at least till the end. then you can start again tomorrow, right? So, after you've made a mistake, you, you need to say, look, I'm human, I was practicing a food plot plan. Now it's time for the big leagues. Let's see, I missed the bullseye by how much and in what direction, so that I know how to make adjustments and aim again. And then I forgive myself, it's just like, if I accidentally touch a hot stove, I don't want to say oh my god, you're a pathetic hot stove touch here, you might as well put your whole hand down on the stove and just bring the whole thing off. Because you can't even do this right, or you could chip a tooth, you don't go get a hammer and bang the rest of them out. You have to forgive yourself with dignity. However, when you're aiming at the bullseye, an Olympic Archer, who only hits the Bull's eye 35 or 40% of the time, but when the Olympic Archer is aiming at the bullseye, before they lose the arrow, they see the arrow going in with perfection, they kind of have to be one with the target. They're not saying maybe I'll make it, maybe I won't, I'll do the best I can. So that, no, I'm gonna hit the target. Because I see the I Am One With that goal. You commit with perfection, but forgive yourself with dignity. By committing with perfection, you prevent your pig from draining your energy with doubt and insecurity. You purge your mind of doubt and insecurity, you claim the target. And you can make with perfection and do everything you can to hit it. Yeah, so you can make with perfection and forgive yourself with dignity, your pig will do exactly the opposite. Your people will say just try the best you can, which just means you'll try for a little while so you don't feel like it anymore. And then if you miss it, it'll say oh, you're an idiot, you obviously can't do this, just shoot the rest of the arrows into the audience. We wanted to the opposite of that. So perfectionism is being used anyway, no matter how you slice it. So let's let's harness the energy and use it as a commitment tool, not as a forgiveness and analysis tool

Philip Pape 31:56

as a braiding tool. Yeah, no, that's, that's really good. And I think, again, you know, I'm a coach. And a lot of times people need that boost ahead of time and try not to say, hey, just do your best. It's more, this is our plan. Let's go get it. Let's let's execute to the plan. And then afterward, you didn't make the plan. Okay, that new day? Let's start again. Yeah. So I just wanted to clarify that because I know, you know, that could be a controversial concept to people with the perfectionism. So let's, let's say someone's not trying to lose weight, I was just curious, on your take on this, someone is maybe in a maintenance phase, or building phase or trying to gain weight, because I know, probably 90% Plus what you're talking about is about losing weight. Would you take any different approach and that scenario, in terms of managing overeating or binge eating,

Dr. Glenn Livingston 32:43

we wouldn't take an approach in terms of the structure of mind or techniques that we use. However, the rules are different, we usually have anti restriction rules. You know, like I will, although we see 600 calories before 11am. Or I will have no less and no more than three meals per day and never less than x number of calories per meal. We'll have anti restriction rules in place to keep the calories up.

Philip Pape 33:09

Yeah, anti Russia, okay, I was I was worried about that. I was thinking that exact same thing. Because if it's three o'clock, and I haven't hit, you know, 2500 calories, man, the rest of the day is going to be really tough to try to

Dr. Glenn Livingston 33:21

be a bodybuilder. So we're going to gaming things on there. Yeah.

Philip Pape 33:24

And then you and then you're prone to maybe scarfing on processed food on purpose. And that could be an issue over time, you know, just to get the calories. And I was curious about that. So you talked about cravings. I think language is important. Is there a difference between hunger and cravings?

Dr. Glenn Livingston 33:41

I believe that most of our hungry and foam meters have been broken by industry, especially if you're binge eating or like seriously out of control. But even if you're just overeating, a little beyond your own best judgment. And the traditional approach is to help you become more in tune with your hunger and fullness so that you can eat when you're hungry and stop when you're full. Which I think is a good guideline but I don't think it's enforceable via these never binge again methods. Because I don't think we have a true sense of being hungry and full I think it's it's distorted from from industry that says there isn't that said there is a difference between a craving and true hunger. I think you feel true hunger kind of in the back of your throat. true hunger will make the meal taste better. You'll know if you really were hungry, but hungry because hunger is the best sauce. If you're really hungry, you'll be happy with fruit and vegetables. If you're not so, if you're if it's more of a craving, it's got to be the chocolate bar and the Doritos Right? So there's definitely a difference but I don't rely on that difference to help people overcome overeating.

Philip Pape 34:55

Okay, but it sounds like if you if you ask yourself what I what I eat as bullets calorie? And the answer is no, you're probably not hungry. Okay. So what have you dealt with, I'm sure you have a client or situation that was just very, very challenging someone who had, you know, maybe a lot to surmount, and had to pull out all these tools and strategies and help them overcome their personal speaking points.

Dr. Glenn Livingston 35:20

The hardest thing we have to deal with is people hiding. There two things people hide, and they fall in love with their emotions. There's so much emphasis on emotions and overeating in our culture that people think they have to solve their emotional problems. And I just had a session with a client and home session, she was crying and told me it's so frustrating. And I kept saying, but what do you want? What do you want to accomplish? If people will do the work to like, pick a very specific goal and then analyze, I guess we didn't really talk about that one. The the pig will, once you have a rule in place, the pig will usually squeal in such a way. That sounds true. It's like a half truth and a bigger lie, to convince you to indulge in the cravings. So for example, the one I used before when the pig says, you know, you worked out hard enough, it's going to be just as easy for you to start your diet again tomorrow, go ahead and have the chocolate back are now. Well, it's true that I worked out harder enough. And if I just had one bar that I probably wouldn't gain weight. But it's never just a bar. It really wasn't for me, chocolate was my thing. And it would lead to pizza and everything else. Secondly, the way that the brain works, the principle of neuroplasticity says that if I have a craving and I indulge it today, that craving is going to be stronger tomorrow, as well. The thought that just came right before the indulgence. So the thought and just start tomorrow is going to be more likely to recur tomorrow with a stronger craving. So it's not just as easy to start tomorrow, it's harder. I can only ever use the present moment to be healthy. If you're in a hole, stop digging. So what you want to do is is disempower those irrational thoughts. That's the work of what we do. There's, there's more to it, because there ways to get out of the reptilian brain and into your higher brain to kind of calm down and think rationally. But that's the essence of what we do. The biggest problem I have is that people won't do it. They'll, you know, they'll, they'll say, I just have to solve these emotional problems, or they won't show up for recession, or, you know, they want to do the little assignments that we give. And that's, that's the biggest problem I have not really that the techniques themselves don't work or that you need a stronger one to help someone who's 500 pounds than you do to help someone who's 200 pounds. Yeah, same techniques work.

Philip Pape 37:41

So it's it's not the winner. People know what to do. They just don't do it. It sounds like it's an accountability and a momentum thing.

Dr. Glenn Livingston 37:49

The pig talks him out of it. May I say a little bit more about emotional eating, please. Okay. The paradigm we have in our culture is the belief that I have these uncomfortable emotions, and I escaped from them with overeating, right. And this is not really my hands are not really the best analogy, but it's like it's this one way relationship. We're eating to, quote unquote, numb out. And it's true that when you overload the digestive system, the nervous system has difficulty conducting the emotions. So there is a kind of numbing anesthetic effect on the feelings when you overeat. That's true. However, several other things are also true. First of all, the things we overeat are not typically broccoli, it's more likely to be these concentrations of calories and starch and sugar in these hyper palatable things. Which we didn't have in the Savannah, we didn't have chocolate bars and Doritos on the savanna, right. And these artificial concentrations of pleasure are really akin to drugs. I mean, they're legal. And I'm not advocating that the manufacturers be put in jail or anything like that. But really, how is it that much different, it's an artificial concentrations of pleasure that evolution didn't prepare us for, and we get more and more and more involved with it. So when you're going to the chocolate bar, or the potato chips, or the pizza or the pasta, you're kind of sort of going to a drug. And so there's this piece of us that wants to get high with food, right? It's this is the stuff is not just numbing out. Do you ever go to the dentist? And he says I'm sorry, I'm Adam Novocaine? Could I inject you with some potato chips instead? Right because the potato chips have more than just a numbing effect. We're going after something else. There's an even more important difference though. It's not just a one way relationship. It goes both ways. Let's take anxiety. A lot of people say I'm too anxious to fall asleep without overeating. A lot of people say they can't fall asleep without eating something heavy. And no the middle site serotonin rich things you know, potatoes, pastas, there'll be eating very heavy, hard to digest serotonin producing things. So it seems to make sense. However, when you're looking at anxiety to get got several physiological correlates, your blood pressure goes up a little bit, you start to perspire, your respiration goes up, your heartbeat goes up a little, the galvanic skin response go was up a little bit. These are all very measurable things. Now, if you're looking at a group of animals, and you, you give them a sugar reward or a starch reward, when their heart rate goes up, or their blood pressure is up or any of this other. There's a study with baboons, for example, where every time their blood pressure was up a little bit, we reinforced them with sugar transit that those baboons while at the moment, they're having sugar, the the blood pressure goes down a little bit, overall, their blood pressure goes up, that whole group goes up. And so you could infer that perhaps the anxiety is raised overall, their body is learning to produce those experiences more because of the sugar reward, because his experiences led to a sugar reward. So you think that you're getting yourself back to sleep by doing this, but really what you're doing is creating progressively more anxiety. So what are the Yeah, but if the inability to sleep is actually caused by the rewards that you're giving it?

Philip Pape 41:12

Yeah. Okay. So it's, it sounds complicated. But it also, in a way simplifies everything you said before in that, why don't we just focus on what we do have control over focus on that pig and focus on planning ahead? And like that concept, so what if a lot of my a lot of my clients face the temptation on the weekends, right, this is a pretty common approach. And they might describe it as emotional eating, in many cases. And I don't know, I don't know if it is or not, you know, in terms of the technical definition you were describing. But it's extremely common, right? Because the routine is broken. On the weekends, often for people, they have social events, they go out, they travel, hanging out with family, and so on. What would you say is maybe the the big go to approach or strategy for that case? It's it probably affects a lot of people.

Dr. Glenn Livingston 42:03

I plan to have more in the weekends, but but planted out? Right?

Philip Pape 42:08

Okay. It's higher calories. And on the weekends? Yeah. Yeah, maybe

Dr. Glenn Livingston 42:11

maybe a little less every day during the weekend, a little more on the weekend.

Philip Pape 42:14

Okay. And that's, and that's effectively that, that's something you write down as a plan. So that's one thing we didn't talk about. When you come up with this food plan, it's you actually write down the rules for yourself? Yeah, so

Dr. Glenn Livingston 42:25

maybe, maybe I would say, I will never have read on a weekday again. And no more than two slices a day on the weekend? They'll just be an example.

Philip Pape 42:33

And then how do people hold themselves to that besides having written it down? Or is that is that the extent of it? Is that usually enough?

Dr. Glenn Livingston 42:38

Well, well, okay. So whenever you create a rule, now, you know, that a pig squeal, and you don't have to call it a pig, you can call it your food monster. But a squeal is any thought filling impulse or reimage, which suggests that you're going to break the rule, either now or in the future. So you're kind of separating your thoughts into two, there's you and then there's the pick where your food master. And so if you say, I will never have more than two slices, on slices of bread on the weekends, and I will never ever during the week, your pickers going to squeal all the time saying at first saying, oh boy, you can have this, you know, forget about it on Wednesdays like Saturday, you first recognize that that's what's going on. That this is not you, this is a destructive thought, by your definition, this is a destructive thought of your pig. Okay, now what you want to do is move the battleground, what's happened is your reptilian brain is active, you're, you're probably have activated your sympathetic nervous system, which is the part of our nervous system that gets us ready for immediate action. You know, like, if a hungry bear is chasing you, it gets you all revved up. So you can take immediate action for your survival, your brain is misperceiving or to be in an emergency, you just got to have that extra piece of bread or you're going to die. That's that's literally what the brain is thinking. So now you know that it's active, you want to step into your parasympathetic nervous system, which is the part that says it's okay to rest and digest and stratotype strategize and plan for the future. So, one way you can do that, once you realize that it's active, is to take what we call a 711 breath, where you breathe in for a kind of seven, and that for a count of 11. We do that a couple of times. The reason that works is that if we were in a true emergency, if we're being chased by a hungry bear, we'd be breathing as fast as we can, we wouldn't have time to breathe out for you know, 25 30% longer than we were then. And so the brain says okay, there must not be an emergency here so it starts to come down. Once you've done that, you can further move from the Chilean brain to the neocortex by writing down specifically what the pig is saying. Just the act of writing it down even if you can't disempower it will take you from the reptilian brain to Leo cortex because writing is an upper brain experience and binging as the lower brain experience. So now you're right down. Just start tomorrow, it's no big deal, right? Then you look at the squeal, you take another couple of 711 breaths, you look at the squeal. And you say, how is the pig wrong? How is it lying to me? Well, it's not easy. It's all the things we said before, it's not as easy to start tomorrow, because XYZ, take another couple of 711 breaths and you say, Why would I be a happier better person, if I kept the pig in the cage? Why wouldn't be a happier better person if I don't have the chocolate bar now. And maybe that has to do with feeling in integrity that I'm walking the walk in the world or, you know that I can climb to the top of the mountains as a tall fan man, or, you know, one of the reasons I have for the rules in the first place, you kind of come back to your big why. And then you take a breath out, you should feel calmer. The last thing you want to do is ask yourself, is there any genuine, physical or emotional need that I need to fulfill? Usually, it's physical, often these cravings are louder and more appealing when you're hungry or tired. So ask yourself, how do you take care of that? For chocolate for me, I eventually really got off of chocolate, not just with the rule. But you know, the rule gave me the power to recognize when this was happening. And it would experiment with a lot of different things that I could eat. When I realized that kale, kale juice, celery and bananas together seem to it doesn't didn't give me the same feeling I didn't get high with it the same way I got high with food. But I felt content, like it scratched the itch. And it was taking care of some genuine physiological need. So that whole routine together with it's what gave me the power to never have chocolate. That's that's how it happened.

Philip Pape 46:51

This is This is gold gland. I love this. I'm gonna have to rewatch this a few times. Because there's so much great stuff in there going from the sympathetic to the parasympathetic, using the 711 technique, right? Sounds like it takes us out of the I don't know if it's the fight or flight. That's a colloquialism that feast or famine. Yeah, feast or famine, to telling our brain that, no, we're not in this emergency situation. And then the having substitutions. I know one substitution where you know, hunger is disguised, or thirst is disguised as hunger. And you may just need to drink could often work with people, but you found a specific food that maybe scratched the itch, but without all the other side effects, and it's not something you crave. So I just love that whole story, as well as the steps I think people are going to be able to take a lot from that. So thanks. I do want to ask more of a philosophical question for you. Is there something with everything you've learned that you wish you had learned earlier in life?

Dr. Glenn Livingston 47:49

I wish I learned that all earlier in life, but it's just not as complicated as it's as it sounds, it's, you know, you, I still thoroughly believe in psychology as a mechanism for soul enrichment, solving other problems in life. I wish that I didn't spend all those years looking for psychological solutions to overeating. Because I had damaged my body a lot in the process. I suffered a lot in ways that I didn't have to. The other thing that happens when you start to have control like this is that the food obsession goes away, because the pig doesn't crave things that it's never going to have. And it also will stop craving things that you don't do except for a very specific context. Like if you only have read in a restaurant on the weekend, you'll find that the pig stops craving bread during the week, most of the like one out of three people will have to give bread altogether. But mostly you'll find that it starts craving bread during the week. And, you know, I have to tell you that I'm really happy to live in a relatively thin and healthy body. I am infinitely happier that I can think about other things besides food all day long. Because I was always thinking, When is the next meal? When's the next pizza? How am I going to control myself? How am I going to make up for it? Do I go to the gym for three hours tomorrow? How am I gonna hide the evidence? It's just it was a nightmare. All the obsessing about it was a nightmare. And if I just knew that I could start with one simple rule and I didn't have to go through all this deep soul searching to to fix this. I think my life would have been a lot better. Sometimes I think if I had a, I had a time machine, I can go back and mute myself when I was nine years old. What would I say? I'd say Glenn, step away from the Pop Tarts just step away from the puck.

Philip Pape 49:39

And at the same time, though, right, like if we hadn't gone through that experience, you wouldn't have actually learned what you have. Now we know that but it's fun to hypothesize. So the takeaway there is it's a lot simpler than we might make it out to be. Maybe we there scapegoats we use to try to link this whole thing to something more complex regarding emotion psychology. which is, which is good that we that we don't have to do that, especially someone like me who doesn't have a background, and then I just want to help people, you know, succeed in life and get the results they want to get. So it's very helpful. Before we get to the last question, is there anything you wish I would have asked you? And if so, what's your answer?

Dr. Glenn Livingston 50:16

Okay, you did a really good job. I wish you would have asked me what do you think about people who are frightened that setting up these rules will restrict their freedom. And what I would have said is there were two famous quotes, one from Jim Rohn, that said, a life of discipline is better than a life of regret. There was some Peter McWilliams, who said, you can have anything you want, but you can't have everything you want. And so to really get what you want, you really do need discipline. And I think about discipline is creating freedom. I think that it's only because of the discipline of the engineers have put my car together, that I can turn my wheel further degrees to the right, and the wheels actually turn 30 degrees to the right. And I can drive all over the state if they want to, oh, they're not in Florida this week because of the hurricane. But, but. Or I wanted to be a jazz pianist when I was younger. And it was only because of the discipline of knowing the scales and practicing the skills that I was ever able to express my soul in an improvised way. Right. Discipline creates freedom, it doesn't restrict your freedom. So that's what I'd say about that.

Philip Pape 51:26

Wonderful. I totally agree with that as an engineer, too, and you're throwing in an engineering analogy, I can totally appreciate that. Oh, yeah. Yeah. So all right, final question. Where can listeners get a free copy of your book that we've been talking about the fantastic book Never binge again? And where can they learn more about you?

Dr. Glenn Livingston 51:47

Both the same place that never binge again.com Easy enough. If you click on the big red button, I'll give you three things. One is a free copy of the book and Kindle ebook or PDF format. If you want the audible or the paperback there is a charge, reasonable charge, there's a charge. When you do it, though, when you sign up for that reader bonus list to get the free copy, you will also get several other things. One of which is a set of recordings that shows how this crazy psychologist coaches people through feeling hopeless and powerless and confused and despairing to feeling excited and optimistic and confident that they can do this in just one session. So recorded a whole bunch of that this is all free. And that's just so that you don't think I'm too crazy. And why does Philip have a psychologist with a pig inside him on the coffee. And then you'll also get a set of food plant starter templates. Personally, I'm a whole foods plant based person, but we work with people across all dietary philosophies. We have a lot of keto people, we've got point counters, calorie counters, macrobiotic vegan carnivores. And we thought through a set of starter templates you could use, you need to customize them and own them for themselves. These are not diets. I'm not a medical professional. I don't have a nutritionist license or dietitians license. And more importantly, we found that to overcome over eating, you really have to make your own rules. But yeah, three things that never binge again.com click the big red button, including a free copy of the book.

Philip Pape 53:27

Wonderful. I will make sure those links are in the show notes. I've already been a recipient of the resources myself and I love the regular emails that come in too with clips that are that I think are super helpful to people. So Dr. Glen Livingston, this has been enlightening. It's also been very educational to me and the listeners, I'm sure. I really appreciate you coming on the show and having this conversation.

Dr. Glenn Livingston 53:48

I really enjoyed it. Phil, thanks for having me on.

Philip Pape 53:51

Philip Pape 10/25/22 Philip Pape 10/25/22

Ep 29: Science Says - Diet (Calorie Deficit) vs. Exercise (Cardio) for Fat Loss

In this “Science Says” episode, we answer the question: which is better for weight loss: diet (a calorie deficit) or exercise (in the form of cardio)? Listen to find out—you might be surprised!

This is another "Science Says" episode, where we break down a single recent article relevant to the fitness (lifting, nutrition, health) industry and strategies you can apply right away based on what the science says.

Today's article is "Reduction in obesity and related comorbid conditions after diet-induced weight loss or exercise-induced weight loss in men. A randomized, controlled trial." by Ross, et al. (2000).

The main question is, which is better for weight loss: diet (a calorie deficit) or exercise (in the form of cardio)? Listen to find out—you might be surprised!

RELATED LINKS

Ross, R., Dagnone, D., Jones, P. J., Smith, H., Paddags, A., Hudson, R., & Janssen, I. (2000). Reduction in obesity and related comorbid conditions after diet-induced weight loss or exercise-induced weight loss in men. A randomized, controlled trial. Annals of internal medicine, 133(2), 92–103.

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Transcript

Philip Pape 00:08

Philip Pape 00:39

where I review a research article talking about the findings and how you can apply it in your life to improve your overall health and fitness. The study we're talking about today is titled reduction in obesity and related co morbid conditions after diet induced weight loss or exercise induced weight loss in men, a randomized control trial. This is from 2000 by Ross at all. And it is a fine example of a study on the topic comparing dieting with cardio, and he participants in the study included males who were overweight and or obese. So that was a BMI above 27, a waist above 39 inches. And they've had, they've maintained their weight for six months before the study began. Out of the four groups. In this study, two of the groups were assigned to lose body fat. One group was the diet only group. And one group was the cardio only group for both groups. They put them through a four to five week period, where they basically got them to maintenance. And they confirmed this using doubly labeled water measurements, which is very highly precise way of calculating the expenditure. And then during the study, the participants had to go to seminars every week with a dietitian, where they were taught about food selection and preparing food. And then they had to keep logs of their food. So the researchers understood their intake. Now the duration of the study was 20 weeks, of which 12 weeks were for the weight loss phase. And during those 12 weeks the diet only group they cut their calories by 700 calories per day. So they were in a deficit of 700 per day, and they didn't do any cardio. Conversely, the cardio only group were at maintenance, but they expended 700 calories a day using cardio without dieting. So it's a very clear control of the specific variable of interest here, which is whether dieting 700 calories a day, or cardio 700 calories a day, which one was more effective. And then as far as the macros in their diet, it's more percentage based because obviously the dieting group is going to be on fewer calories, but the percentages were 55 to 60% carbs, 15 to 20% protein 20 to 25% fat. Now if we look at the cardio only group, we talk about what kind of cardio they did, they basically did brisk walking or light jogging. So I would call that low intensity steady state generally. And they did this long enough so that they could burn 700 calories, which resulted in an average time of an hour per day at just below 80% max heart rate. So the end result because of how well this was controlled, monitored, measured, was that both groups had an effective deficit of 700 calories per day. One was purely from cardio, and one was purely from diet. And by the way, I want to go off on a little tangent here, because one thing that struck me when I was reading about the exercise, that they're brisk, briskly walking for about an hour a day, and I'm always talking about the value of steps of walking, especially with my clients of if we can just walk an extra two, four, maybe 6000 steps a day, you know, oftentimes, people are getting 4000, because they have a desk job and they're not moving around a lot. And then they go up to 8000. Well, that that for that extra 4000 steps, is probably about 4550 minutes of walking, just normal walking. And of course, it'd be slightly less if you were briskly walking, which if you can tell from this study, if you're able to add 700 calories, your expenditure for one hour, then you're going to still add four or 500 calories to expenditure from adding about 4000 steps. So I think just without even going any further in the study, this is good evidence that you know, without down regulating your metabolism by doing the higher intensity forms of cardio that I typically warn against overdoing because of the recovery and the metabolic effects. And this low intensity version of cardio can actually be quite highly effective for helping with your metabolism, but we're gonna get They're later in the study when we talk about the results, and what combination of this kind of cardio and diet we might want to incorporate for the best outcome. So now I want to talk about what they measured. And it would be the things you would expect, they measured, the resting, the RMR, it's called which some people use interchangeably with BMR. But it's a component of your metabolism. They measured body weight, they measure body fat, and then they used an MRI machine to measure muscle mass. So they had some fancy tools at their disposal. So now let's talk about the results. So after the 12 weeks, both groups lost the same percentage of weight, they both lost about 16 pounds, 16 pounds for the diet group, 17 pounds for the cardio only group. So those are basically exactly the same. But the big difference was actually in the change in body composition. Something we talked about a lot in this podcast is the value of improving your body composition, cutting fat, and maintaining muscle or building muscle while not adding too much fat.

Philip Pape 06:06

Philip Pape 06:30

So in this study, the group doing just cardio actually lost a lot more body fat 4.3% than the diet only group 3.4%. In statistical terms, that's a lot. It's only about 1% difference, they still both loss, decent amount of weight and body fat. But in addition to that, so Compounding this, the group that did the cardio lost less muscle 2.2 pounds, then the cardio only group which lost 4.8 pounds of muscle. So when you use a ratio, the group that was relying on the diet calorie deficit, they lost 70% from fat 30% from muscle, the cardio group lost 85% of their weight from fat and 15%. From muscle. This is a fairly profound outcome showing that when you combine the two, the cardio only group, despite losing the same amount of weight actually lost more of that weight as fat. Now here's another interesting finding. Both groups saw that there saw their resting metabolic rate decrease, but the diet only group their rate decreased by 40%. More than the cardio only group. So the fact that they were in a diet in a deficit caused their metabolism, their metabolic rate to decline more precipitously than the cardio only group. And this is actually consistent with the fact that the cardio only group retained more muscle, because muscle is more expensive. And we talk about the fact that having more muscle mass actually keeps your metabolic rate higher, and that the fat free mass or your body composition is the biggest impact when it comes to your metabolic rate. Other than the short term fluctuations like meat like steps, like activity. Now there's one huge caveat to this study. And that is the participants in the study, were not resistance trained, which is something we all tried to do the listeners of this podcast, we know the value of strength training of resistance training as part of your daily regimen, or maybe not daily, but as part of your ongoing consistent weekly regimen, you strength train. And people tend to make the argument However, and this study counters that, that somehow dieting is the best thing you can do for fat loss and that cardio is somehow ineffective. And I don't I've never said that. I always say that. You don't want to do too much medium intensity cardio, so it doesn't interfere with your lifting and your recovery. But I also say at the same time that cardio was an excellent boost for fat loss during the diet said that many times that you can use HIIT sessions or low intensity cardio or definitely walking in steps to give you a boost your metabolic rate. So now the question is, should we be in a calorie deficit to lose fat and weight? Or should we only try to get it from activity? And I think you know, the answer is I think, you know, the answer is actually both because we never want to rely on on strictly having to move a certain amount every day just to lose weight. And furthermore, it's usually not enough when we're trying to get into a certain deficit and lose at a certain rate of loss. So at the end of the day, what we're saying is the takeaway from this is the best way to optimize fat loss is to use a calorie deficit combined with some cardio in your program, and that cardio could be simply walking and that is why I always recommend and with my clients, we go through a metabolic restoration or preparation phase for probably two to as many as eight weeks before we go into a fat loss phase, and during that initial phase, we start upping our steps, we incorporate training, we incorporate sufficient protein, and then manage the stressors, the sleep, distress, and so on. So that puts us into a great position metabolically to start that fat loss phase. And that we have the habits in place like the steps to keep the metabolism high enough, so we can diet on higher calories. And so that when we hit the gas pedal on the fat loss phase, we then can go into a deficit, but it's not as painful, we're not at such low calories, we're using our steps to supplement our diet, because we've already started to increase our steps. And thus, we have an easier time dieting. Now as you get further into a diet, you've experienced some more metabolic adaptation, and you're trying to hold on to muscle mass. This is where adding a little extra cardio in the form of brisk walking, I'm not a big fan of too much running, but I do like sprints, or biking especially because of the biking is fully concentric motion and it doesn't place the any stress on your joints like running does. But either way you can do what I would say two, maybe three high intensity interval training sessions a week for about 10 to 20 minutes. And a very simple way to do this is interval training, where you go all out for maybe 15 or 30 seconds, and then you rest for two to four times that amount to get fully recovered. So that you can go all out again. And this will allow you to get a little bit of calorie burn in there. Also a little cardio, but it's not so much that you're going to send your body the endurance signal that down regulates your metabolism, and not so much that you're going to recover or interfere with your recovery or with your lifting. And then he tried to do this at least two hours separated from your lifting sessions, and ideally on off days. Another consideration I would have is your hunger. As you get deeper into a diet, if you start to experience the the signs of hunger because of the metabolic adaptation. This is where you might look for other ways to increase your metabolic burn your metabolic rate, so that you can actually eat on more calories. And that's where additional steps can come into play. Or if you're already kind of maxing out your steps, if you're up in the maybe 12 14,000 Step range, and you want some variety wants to do something different. This is where again, a little bit of these other modes of cardio can come into play. So cardio, I'm just going to repeat, if you are doing low intensity, then you could really do quite a bit of that during the week, maybe three times maybe four times, half an hour, if you're doing and when I say low, intense, I mean really low intensity like walking, brisk walking, biking. And that was the inner interval training was what I talked about before, on off days, maybe 20 minutes with the all out and then two to three, two to 4x ratio of rest to all out. Now one other thing I would definitely not take away from this study, I would not take away the thought that you can do cardio instead of strength training. Again, the the participants in the study weren't even resistant strain, but strength training is going to come before anything else. Okay, that is the thing that sends the signal to hold on to muscle mass when you are losing weight period that and then combined with the proper nutrition, which includes a fairly high level of protein, or higher than most people were used to but roughly around a gram per pound of your target body weight. And then steps come into play after that. And then cardio after that. So I hope you found this study useful. I will include the link to the study in the show notes if you want to read it in great detail. And at the end of the day, the thing that works best is what works best for you as an individual. Thanks as always for listening.

Philip Pape 13:52

I wish you the best and stay strong. Thanks for listening to the show. Before you go, I have a quick favor to ask. If you enjoy the podcast. Let me know by leaving a five star review in Apple podcasts and telling others about the show. Thanks again for joining me Philip Pape in this episode of Wits & Weights. I'll see you next time and stay strong.

Philip Pape 10/18/22 Philip Pape 10/18/22

Ep 28: Body Composition for Health and Performance (From Overweight or Skinny Fat to Lean)

Whether you’re trying to lose weight, get healthier, increase strength or performance, or just look and feel better in your body, improving your body composition is the path to overall health. Everyone can benefit from improving their body composition, and today we’re diving into the topic, including its benefits and the most important priorities for achieving a leaner, healthier physique.

Whether you’re trying to lose weight, get healthier, increase strength or performance, or just look and feel better in your body, improving your body composition is the path to overall health.

Body composition refers to the percentage of muscle versus fat in your body, which determines how “lean” you are. The lower your body fat percentage (or higher your muscle percentage) relative to your weight, the leaner you are.

Someone who weighs 180 pounds at 40% body fat is not as lean as someone who weighs 180 pounds at 25% body fat. This is more about composition than scale weight.

But why is “leanness” important?

Yes, being leaner affects how you look and feel. Even better, improving your body composition goes way beyond aesthetics and has numerous benefits for health, performance, and longevity.

Everyone can benefit from improving their body composition, and today we’re diving into the topic, including its benefits and the most important priorities for achieving a leaner, healthier physique.

Then I go over three scenarios—skinny fat, somewhat overweight, and very overweight—and discuss strategies for improving body composition with each.

Topics discussed in this episode:

What exactly is body composition?
How body composition gets worse over time (unless you do something about it)
The concept of "body fat overshooting" from repeated dieting
Benefits of improving composition
How to improve body composition
Applying these strategies if you're skinny fat, somewhat overweight, or very overweight

RELATED LINKS

Join our Facebook community if you'd rather watch the video and to access the nutrition blueprint PDF for this episode
MacroFactor food logging app (use discount code WITSANDWEIGHTS)

👉 If you have any questions, just click here.

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Philip Pape of Wits & Weights (Instagram 👉 @witsandweights)

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Let me know by leaving a review in Apple Podcasts

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Get notified of new episodes. Use your favorite podcast app or one of the buttons below. Then hit “Subscribe” or “Follow” and you’re good to go!

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Transcript

Philip Pape 00:08

Welcome to the Wits & Weights podcast, where we discuss getting strong and healthy with strength training and sustainable nutrition. I'm your host, Philip pape, and in each episode, we examine strategies to help you achieve physical self mastery through a healthy skepticism of the fitness industry, and a commitment to consistent nutrition and training for sustainable results. Welcome to another episode of Wits & Weights, we are streaming live in our Facebook group. So if you want to watch future episodes, if you want to interact with our community, you want to get access to future live trainings like this one free guides, blueprints, other free info on strength, fat loss, nutrition, and all things related to that just join our group using the link in the show notes. I am your host, Philip pape, founder of Wits & Weights, nutrition coaching. And as always, if you enjoy the show, please if you find it valuable, interesting, if you learn something new, the best way you can support me is doing a rating and review on Apple or Spotify. Just support the show let others know it's there. That's how the algorithm works, how people can find it. Just again, leave a rating and review on one of those wherever you get your podcasts. You could also take a screenshot and share it on social media and just tag me Wits & Weights. So let's get into today's topic on body composition. Whether you're trying to lose weight, get healthier, increased strength, increased performance, or if you just want to look and feel better in your body. And there's no shame in that improving your body composition is the path to overall health. Body Composition refers to the percentage of muscle versus fat in your body. And that determines how quote unquote lean you the lower your body fat percentage or the higher your muscle percentage relative to your weight. The leaner you are now someone who weighs 180 at 40% body fat is not going to look as lean or be as lean as someone who weighs 180 at 25% body. This is more about composition than scale weight. But now why is this important? Why do we care about leanness? Yes, being leaner affects how you look and feel. But even better, improving your body composition. It goes way beyond aesthetics. It has numerous benefits for health performance and longevity that we're going to discuss today. Everyone can benefit from improving body composition, everyone. And today we're diving into the topic, including the benefits, the most important priorities for achieving a leaner healthier physique. And then I'm going to go over some scenarios toward the end. Depending on your starting point, if you're starting from skinny fat, somewhat overweight, very overweight, and discuss strategies for improving body composition with each and I'm sorry, if any of those terms are offensive, we'll get into why we use those definitions, but they are what they are. So we're gonna get into body composition. What is alright, body composition is simply the percentage of our tissue that's fat relative to all other tissue. And that would be organs, bones, muscle, that's an important one. And any other tissue in our body. Now we all have to have some essential level of fat to survive, right, we need at least for men, we need 3%. For women, it's 12%. So there's about a 10% spread. Women need more fat for biological reasons having to do with childbearing and other reasons related to hormones. But if, for example, if I said, most men might want to be between 10 and 20%, body fat for health, for women, I would add 10% to that, so 20 to 30%. On top of the essential body fat, there is not essential body fat. And that's not all bad, right? Because, for example, I just told you 3% for men is essential. Well, nobody walks around 3% Except the most stage lean, high performing professional bodybuilder, most of us are walking out with much more fat than that. And that's okay, we want some of that fat for overall health, for balanced hormones for energy. And it even protects our internal organs, but too much fat too much. And we're talking, say well beyond 20% For men, or 30%. For women, it increases your risk of disease, heart disease type diabetes, and then many other health effects that we're gonna get to in a second. The other cool thing is that muscle is more dense than fat. You've probably heard this before, but because of that, it takes up less space, right? So leanness is determined by body composition, because of the density of muscle. So two people can weigh the same, but look vastly. Now, if we're talking statistics got a couple interesting ones for you. More than 40% of adults in the US are now obese with an unhealthy bowel position. And it keeps growing and the related diseases and illnesses keep and this is this is not a good thing. And to top it all off, you lose 8% of your muscle mass each decade between the ages of 40 and 70. And that accelerates to 15% per decade after age 70 Which means you could lose 37% of your muscle mass from age eight. Now that's only if you don't do anything about it. And today we're Talking about doing something about it, which is why you tuned in and while you're listening, and so I know you're going to be in the minority of people who go out there and get results and improve your body composition. Now, how

Philip Pape 05:10

does body composition worsen over time? All right, pretty obvious things that I think we're all familiar with. But just to state them. Number one lack of exercise, specifically, lack of resistance training. So there are people who do lots of cardio, but doesn't mean they have very good body composition, if you're lacking resistance training, lack of sufficient protein, which is widespread lack of movement. So I'm not talking again, about running or high intensity cardio, I'm just talking about being ambulatory walking, moving your body around, there's health benefits for that. And then repeated dieting. This actually potentially is the worst culprit of them all when it comes to your body composition getting worse over time. And I want to talk about that specifically. So you may have heard me talk on other episodes about the concept of body fat overshooting. And I think the term was coined by Layne Norton. But it's been used by many academics, and it's pretty widespread term by now. But when you die it what happens over time is you you lose fat when you diet, right? When you're in a calorie deficit, you definitely you lose weight, and some of that weight is fat. But a lot of that tissue is also muscle, as much as 50%, when you're not doing the other things we need to do to improve body composition. And that's a pretty scary concept. But it's supported by the statistic I mentioned before about muscle loss. And people don't realize that they think every time I diet, I'm just I'm losing fat, right, I'm losing my weight, so I'm losing fat. And then when you regain the weight, you regain mostly fat. And so every time you diet, even if you end up at the same weight, you have excess fat accumulation from each time you do it. There's also something called hyperphagia. With a G, that's a Greek spelling, and hyperphagia is the loss of muscle mass, leading to ravenous hunger, the more you diet. So if you've ever experienced it many times and feeling like you need to do it on less fewer and fewer calories, and you get hungry and hungrier. And then you basically just binge the food right back. That's probably what's happening 30% of people who diet gain more weight and and the rest of them, they may not gain more weight, but their body composition is worse. The other thing you have to be aware of is this energy restriction, which usually comes from crash dieting. That's how many of us do it right. You do keto, you carnival Weight Watchers, whatever it is, you oftentimes severely restrict well beyond what we should be doing. And then your body creates new fat cells as a response to that energy restriction. And those fat cells never go away for the rest of your life, but we can reduce their size. And so have no fear, if you've dieted 30 times that it's not a lost cause, we the same principles and methods can still help you reduce the fat. So this is why we don't just want to lose weight. This is what is wrong with the fitness industry. And the way we talk about this and all the 21 day challenges and all the everything everybody's trying to sell is we're not just trying to lose weight, yes, we need to be at a healthy weight to avoid disease, okay. But we also need to be at a healthy body composition to optimize health. So I hope I hope you got that what I just said there, we need it to be a healthy weight to avoid disease and sickness. But we need to be a healthy body composition to optimize our health to live longer, and to live a higher quality life with those extra years.

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So let's go over the benefits of improved improving body composition. And it's a very long list. So get ready. But I think it's it's worth understanding how powerful this one thing is, among everything else you'd have to filter through when it comes to diet nutrition fitness, because this is it like this is why I do what I do, and try to help people in in getting better habits and figuring out how to eat more protein and train and things like that. It's because of body composition, period. It's not weight loss. So what are the benefits of improving body composition? First, it increases your metabolic rate. And it does so all day long. Now think about that. When you have extra muscle on your frame, every ounce of muscle, every pound of muscle burns more tissue than a similar amount of fat. So you're increasing your metabolism, your total daily energy expenditure always. So once you have that extra muscle, you might train one hour a day, if that the other 23 hours you're burning extra calories. Now would you rather do that? Or would you rather go run on a treadmill for that's a pretty easy answer in my opinion, and I enjoy lifting too. So I'd rather go do that than run and then I can burn the calories the rest of the day. So this is huge. In my opinion. This is a huge aspect of body composition because once you improve it once you add muscle, your body, everything shifts up, your ability to diet gets easier, and your ability to maintain your weight gets easier. Alright, the second benefit is that adding muscle mass and focusing on muscle mass counter X sarcopenia. sarcopenia is basically the muscle wasting that occurs urs as we get older, it also counteracts what's called anabolic resistance. And this is a concept where our sensitivity to muscle protein synthesis. So our ability to basically construct muscle tissue from proteins, our sensitivity to that decreases as we age, which compounds the loss of muscle mass, unless we are doing the other things, the right things, right, the training protein cetera that we're going to talk about. So you not only lose muscle, as you get older, you lose it at a faster rate. Okay, improving body composition, it strengthens your bones and ligaments. So think about this people who think they're prone to osteopenia, or even osteoarthritis in later years, especially if it's genetic. This is a way to prolong or prevent that push off the time in which it could occur or prevent it altogether. You know, we've seen time and again, people who had bone loss, they tried medications wasn't really working. And then they start strength training, and all of a sudden their bones get denser on a DEXA scan, and also strengthen, strengthen your ligaments, which is great for overall, alright, increases your strength, which increases your function. This is so critical. Imagine all the things you want to do and you're 5060 7080 years old, the things you're doing now, and you're 35 or 40, don't you want to be doing those when you're 85. And having the extra strength having the improved body composition is going to give your body the capability to do that, to enjoy athletics to enjoy pursuits, like, you know, physical pursuits later. Also prevent frailty. And to prevent injury, when you fall, things like that. What else it improves sleep, improves mood increases energy. Why is it increased energy? Well, you have less fatigue, you're carrying less weight around and you have more strength, you have more muscle less overall weight. And even if you have a little extra weight, your body composition is better. So you're strong, so you can walk up stairs more easily. You could enjoy your lifting your cardio your sports better, because you have a better body comes in it reduces joint hip and back pain. Okay, so if this is you, if you've had issues in these areas, these often decrease or go away. When you start strength training and adding muscle you can walk more, for example, now I want to share a statistic according to a Danish study in 2011. For older adults with osteoarthritis, losing just a pound of excess weight decreases the forces on your knees by more than two pounds. So basically, if you were 25 pounds heavier than you need to be and you lost that excess weight, the load on your knees would go down by 50 pounds. Now that's just wait, we're not even talking about body composition. Add in strength to that and it just gets better. Okay, here, here's some more sobering things about body composition. In terms of how it actually helps actually, it decreases your risk of heart disease, type two diabetes, high blood pressure, which is hypertension, and even cancer when you are not strong and you have extra weight 25 extra pounds beyond a healthy weight requires 5000 extra miles of blood vessels and most of these are small capillaries, which means your heart has to work harder and you get a higher blood pressure to pump blood through all those vessels. Okay, improving body composition decreases your cholesterol and triglyceride levels. It decreases your blood sugar increases your glucose tolerance, your insulin sensitivity, it also potentially increases fertility and lowers pregnancy related complications and might reverse metabolic syndrome that's also called pre diabetes. So pay attention. If you have any of these numbers, you potentially have pre diabetes, and you're probably already aware of it. But just to be clear, blood pressure above 135 alrady blood sugar are fasting glucose above 100 triglycerides above 150 HDL below 40 for men or 50. For women, that's the quote unquote cholesterol. So if it's true, and then if you have a high level of abdominal fat, which means a waist size of 40 inches for men 35 inches, so improving your body composition can counteract all of these things. It can improve your breathing, it can decrease visceral fat, visceral fat is the most dangerous kind that's around your organs. It's in your abdomen looks like a beer gut on men as opposed to the subcutaneous fat under your skin. Alright, the last two benefits are pretty cool. The first one has to do with performance if you improve your body composition so for those who like to compete, and we're talking any any kinds of sport pretty much boxing, gym, gymnastics, basketball, endurance sports, CrossFit, mud races, whatever the you know, muscle mass is correlated with strength and power. So if you're more lean, and you have more muscle mass, you have a greater strength to train to weight ratio. So that increases your speed, your quickness, your agility. Now there's some genetic component to things like the vertical jump and to speed and things like that. But the one variable you can affect the most is strength in that equation. Yes, you can lose weight, but the strength has a much bigger of reducing excess body fat also helps with endurance, both muscular and cardio endurance. So if anybody's ever done a CrossFit workout, and you all of a sudden lost a bunch of weight, they tended to be easier. What else your joint range is improved when your body composition is leaner. So think about how that can affect you when it comes to food. functional movements and what I'm trying to say your form when it comes to lifting. Think about how that will help you form if you're doing rain. Now, there's some exceptions to this when it comes to improving body composition and reducing weight exceptions would be American football, wrestling powerlifting, where you actually might want to gain weight as well gain some extra fat along with the muscle, you're still improving your body composition, though, because you're adding muscle either way. But most, most sports benefit from the higher string to mass mass ratio. So that's the performance aspect. And then last, but not least, and this honestly, is why a lot of people get into this, it gives you a healthy physique. And this could do things like improve your self confidence,

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give you you know, make you feel more comfortable in your skin. Something let's not kid ourselves, okay? There's no shame in wanting a fit, shapely body looking good in clothes, feeling comfortable in our own skin. There's nothing wrong with that at all. Now, what is what this presents itself as is just something I guess we could say is genetically or biologically aesthetic, which would be broader shoulders for men or tapered torso, trim ways, maybe strong toned arms for women, we we know what we're talking about here. But for you, as an individual, it's really do you feel and look that also, don't be afraid of getting too big. It's very hard to do. Ladies, man, whoever you are, without some enhancements, and many, many years of body composition is going to improve your physique. Alright, so one last thing before we talk about proving body composition, because I know we want to do that now after you heard that extremely long list of benefit is how to measure it. Now I was going to leave this out of the training because when I'm working with clients, for the most part, we we go by how you look and feel right? We go by progress photos, or even if we don't have photos, it's Hey, do you feel like you are your body composition is getting better? Are you stronger? Are you lighter on your feet? Do you just feel better overall better mood, you know, the biofeedback but then I thought, you know, some of us do like data. I'm a nerd myself. I'm engineering background, I

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love to see progress and objective data. So beyond how you look and feel and photos, you can measure your body fat, okay, but I would keep it simple. And the way I suggest doing it is either with a tape measure, or caliber skinfold caliber. So with a tape measure, you can measure your neck and waist for men. And for women, you also measure your hips. And then you can plug that into the Navy calculator, go online and just Google Navy calculator. And that'll give you a body fat percentage that's based on a ratio. Now that's based on the average population, not you as an individual. So don't trust the number, but trust the trend over time. So if you take that measurement, and then you do it every week, or every couple of weeks, as you are building muscle or losing fat, you should be able to see a change in your body fat percentage. So like if you're, if you're building muscle, you're intentionally gaining weight, you actually might see the body fat percentage start to go up. We expect that because we expect the muscle to slightly outstripped the fat as we're gaining weight just because it comes on much easier. But then after you spend six to nine months or more in a building phase, and then now you go on a diet, now you should see the body fat percentage come down. So rather than focus on the number, focus on the trend, I personally have used this as well as skinfold calibers. And there's a lot of ways to do that. And I can get into details here. But when I measure them both in parallel, they're off from each other by as much as 5%. But the trend is very precisely in lockstep, you know, meaning one might say, I'm 20%, one might say, I'm 15%. But then after I go through my diet, the top one has gone down by five, and the bottom one has also gone down. So I know I've lost around 5%. But so that's a way to way to measure it. But really do you look and feel the way you want. So now the fun part, how exactly do we improve our body composition? And the simple answer is that we need three things. Number one, and I'm going to say this is the most important because without it the rest don't matter. Number one is resistance training to build muscle. If you don't build muscle, you can't improve your body composition. Like we said before body fat overshooting means every time you lose fat, you lose muscle, every time you gain weight, you only gain fat. So all you're doing is losing muscle. As you get older, this is the missing ingredient resistance training, we'll get into details number two periodized nutrition to control macro balance and intake. So I use my words very carefully periodized meaning we don't just do everything at once like a crash diet. We do things in phases to give our body a break to recover. And we're using nutrition to control our macros or macronutrients namely protein and the intake so being able to turn the dial for weight loss or weight. And then the third thing is going to be movement movements so that we remain active and healthy and also increase our expenditure from Neat non exercise Activity Thermogenesis and I think I was I was arguing with myself as to whether to include that part in here because technically you can improve body composition and not really get many steps or do much activity, but it makes it way harder to the point where the adherents level the concerns Since the level is going to be so low, and and that right there is going to kill the rest of the plan, right. So I think these three things go hand in hand, and we're gonna dive into each one, and how to do them. And if you guys who are watching live, you ever have comments along the way, feel free to throw. Okay, so the first thing is resistance training. And if you remember nothing else from the training, remember this phrase stress recovery, adaptation, stress recovery adaptation, this is the way our bodies get stronger, and add muscle. And the way it works is simply we have to offer some sort of stress that pushes our muscles close to muscular failure by training hard so that after we recover recovery, meaning sleep and food, our bodies have to adapt by adding muscle tissue, and programming our brain for lack of a better phrase to be a little stronger, right neuromuscular adaptation along with muscle mass. So that next time we try to do what we just did, you know, lift a very heavy bar off the ground, for example, with a deadlift, our bodies will be able to do at least that much weight, and then probably a little more. And then when we go to the gym, we add a little more weight, we do it, we stress ourselves, we recover with food and fuel, or food and sleep. And then our body adapts again, because like, oh, geez, you keep pushing me to the my limit, I'm recruiting as many muscle fibers as I can, I need to build this muscle tissue, I need to add and change the size and the muscles, and you go over and over and over again. So what am I talking about? I'm talking about progressive overload. And the best way to apply resistance training to increase your strength and muscle mass,

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which then improves your body composition is a planned out program of progressive overload, where you increase weight and or repetitions with the same movement over time. Now, for beginners, if you're just starting, or even if you're not a beginner, but you're trying to do this the right way for the first time, I would keep it very simple, I would use something like starting strength, starting strength by Mark Rippetoe, or something like it where the focus is on a few big compound lifts. And by compound I mean multi joint movements, namely, the squat, the deadlift, the deadlift is a hip hinge, the benchpress, which is your horizontal, push the overhead press, which is a vertical push, and then chin ups or pull ups, which is your vertical pole, and I missed one there, I don't think I did. So I would focus on a program that includes those basic movements with a barbell, that that is the preference of you can get access to that at a gym, or invest in your own home gym. And it really isn't that expensive. But of course, you have to have the space and know what you're getting into, I would go there failing barbells access to barbells, you can go with dumbbells and cables. I wouldn't use the machines, quote unquote, at a big box gym, because they restrict you and your range of motion and stability. And there's a whole bunch of reasons. Of course, it's better than nothing. So the point here is find a simple program where you can do two or three compound lifts three days a week. So starting strength, for example, we'll have you squatting every session, and then benching and overhead pressing alternate alternate sessions. And then deadlifting, and chin ups, alternate sessions, and everything is done with sets of five. So a lot of the really good programs that build that focus on strength, or in a low rep range between three and eight. And I think five is like a sweet spot. And if you go back to, I think it was episode two or three of the podcast, I talked about a bunch of different strength programs you can look into. And when you do sets of five, you go, let's go with the squat. For your very first session, you're going to live something moderate, you're

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not really sure how much you can, let's say it's 95 pounds, and you do three sets of five, and you take sufficient rest between each set. So you can get the three sets of five. And that means you're not going to just rest 30 seconds, it might be two to three minutes later on, it might be three to five minutes. And when you get super strong, because we're not focused on endurance here or getting your heart rate up, we're focused on getting stronger. So you're going to do three sets of five squats with couple, three minutes in between each set. Okay, then that night, you're going to sleep and get a good eight hours, you're going to eat plenty of food, you're going to take a rest day. And then the next day you're going to squat. Again, this is Wednesday, you're gonna do it again, three sets of five, but you're going to do it five pounds heavier 100 pound, rinse and repeat, do it Friday, then you get the whole weekend off do it Monday, Wednesday, Friday, Monday, Wednesday, Friday, squat, squat, squat squat. Now this is in addition to the couple other movements in the program, but we're talking about the squat, either to go up five pounds, five pounds, five pounds. Now the goal here isn't to go in and not be sure if you're going to be able to get that weight, the goal is to go in and get that weight because you're stronger. And if you have to go up two and a half pounds do that do it. If you can go up 10 pounds, do it. And after a couple of months, you've gone from 95 to 215 on the bar for three sets of five and eventually after three to six months, you're going to be an intermediate and you're gonna move on to all sorts of other fun stuff. How do you part splits for day splits, maybe power building all these other fun things that we can talk beyond the scope of today? But let's bring it all the way back. What am I talking about? I'm talking about something that a lot of people don't do. A lot of people go in and they fling around 10 pound on balls for sets of 20. And I've nothing against the 10 pounds. But I just wanted to put that image in your head if you could do sets of 20 than 10 pound content. And what we need to do is stress ourselves enough, so the muscles know they need to. And that's training hard, that's training close to muscular failure failure, with the big compound lifts, that might be around two to three reps shy of the most you can do. But I don't want you to think about that, I just want you to add weight to the bar each week with one with an isolation movement like a barbell curl, you might go to, okay, so I can go on and on about training. The key here is that you need to stress yourself with muscular tension with heavy lifting with an effective program of progressive overload, do it over time, and within two to three months, you'll be much stronger than when you started. And that is the key to adding muscle mass. It's also why I always recommend spending at least six to nine months in a muscle phase. Now when you do that, and how you do it, we'll talk a little bit later in the scenarios. But that's the those are the fundamentals. So that's the first thing you need to improve your body composition is probably the most important that we're missing. So the second piece is nutrition. So this is the next most important that a lot of people don't, don't quite get the, you know, optimally. And we're going to start with macros. So your macronutrient composition, the amount of protein, fats and carbs you have in your diet, the percentage of those that contributes to your ability to build muscle, and your ability to maintain muscle, all three macros, and I'm gonna explain why. And I've done previous episodes where I dive into these in great detail. But just in the context of body composition, starting with protein, most people don't get anywhere near the amount of protein that the evidence shows we need to maximize muscle protein synthesis. Why do we care about muscle protein synthesis, because that is how when we are giving our body that stress from resistance training, our body can take the fuel coming in our protein, and shuttle it to the right metabolic processes to build as much muscle as possible. Okay. Similarly, when we're losing weight, we're trying to lose fat. That's how we hold on to as much of the muscle as possible. And it basically flips the body a fat overshooting effect on its head, it flips it around. So when you're resistance training, and you're getting a lot of protein, now when you lose weight, it's mostly fat. And when you gain weight, it's a combination of fat and muscle. So you flipped it around to now where you adding muscle, adding muscle, adding muscle cutting, fat cut, that's what we want. Now a few other things about protein. First of all, it's more satiating, it fills you up. So it helps with dieting. Second, it burns more calories when you digest it. So it helps with dieting, and then it supports muscle building and preservation, like we just talked about. But getting enough protein is definitely a challenge for people. And a lot of what we talked about today is the what, and it's a lot harder to do the how actually, it's even, it's the how isn't even that hard for people to understand. It's the doing it, that's hard for people to understand. This is why, you know, potentially having really good support structure, or a trainer or a coach can be super helpful to get through this initially. So how can you get enough protein? My general recommendation is you have four or five meals every day, evenly spaced, and every meal includes protein, one or two of those could be a protein shake initially when you're struggling to figure out how to get it all in. But as you move forward, you'll start figuring out how to get the protein from animal sources like that. Another topic that is sort of beyond the scope of today, but always happy to talk about questions. Okay, so that's protein. Now, carbs, okay, carbs, oh, carbs are terrible, right? So carbs are there. Now one of my best friends have to say I can, I can snuggle with carbs. And we have a great time. And it didn't used to be that way. Carbs were evil. You know, back in the day, for me, I did keto. I did paleo, I did all the things pretty popular today. And the I suffered for it. You know, I did CrossFit for like eight, nine years. And I did it fast it and I did a low carb, oh my gosh, if I redid it again, I would have loved to see how much different different my performance was, if I didn't do it fast, and I had carbs, which is what I do today. So carbs have to be high enough to fuel performance and recovery. Now there was a recent study that came out. I don't know if it's that recently might have been 2020. But I read a review about it by Dr. Bill Campbell, where they looked at two groups, one group that ate keto. And if you're not familiar with keto, it's just very high fat, very low. And the level of protein depends on the type of keto but the modified version of keto today has average level of protein. And they had one group doing keto one group doing a Western diet, a standard diet. These were bodybuilders eating like 3500 calories, so they had plenty of food coming in. And they had Zach's exact same amount of protein. It was sufficient protein like 150 or 200 grams of protein. And they were trying to build muscle and they found that the group that had the carbs, the non keto group gained about five pounds of muscle over this eight or 12 week period and the group that was keto gained like one pound that was enough to just tell me right there, that if I'm trying to build muscle, I've got to have carbs There's plenty of other evidence that supports this. But you can lose weight on a low carb diet, but you may not preserve as much muscle. And definitely, it's harder to build muscle on just saying, all right, and then fats, fats are usually around 25, or 30%. So when you're scripting all this out, depending on what phase you're in, you're going to start with protein, then you're going to pick up fats, and then everything that's left is for carbs. So if you're dieting, the carbs are gonna be lower. And if you're gaining, there'll be higher period, proteins usually around the same. And fats are a scale, they scale with how many calories. So that's the macronutrient composition. And the key, I don't think I mentioned it, but the key is to get around one gram per pound of protein. So if you're 150 pound female, you need close to 150 grams of protein. And that's just ballpark if you if you get 130. If you get 170. That's, that's good enough. But at least for me, when I see clients coming in, you know, 150 pound female, they're usually getting around 60, which is far short of what we need. And that can be the root of many of the issues that are experienced by that client. Previously, when it comes to feeling hungry, feeling like they have to go cut on low calories, feeling like dieting doesn't work, all these other things, part of it could just be a shortage of protein. Okay, so that's macro composition, then the second part of nutrition is the intake.

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so that's nutrition. And then the last aspect of body composition is going to be movement. And I split this into two things, steps and cardio. So four steps, just checking for steps, we want to I would say aim for somewhere around eight to 12,000 steps a day. But if you're currently getting to, I would like you to shoot for if you're currently getting four, I'd like to shoot for six 2000 steps is like walking about 15 to 20 minutes, it's a mile. And most of us can find a way to do that versus what we do today. So I encourage you to do that. So if you get more steps, you're going to increase your metabolic rate your metabolism, your total daily energy expenditure, expenditure, some times quite dramatic, right in addition to the training and protein, but steps or walking is also important for overall health, for movement for energy for mood for lots of things that we did still don't quite understand exactly why As physiologically, but we know it's true, we know there's a correlation between getting around 7500 steps or more, and a significant drop in mortality disease, and all these issues. And maybe intuitively, it's just the fact that, hey, you're always moving, you're active, it keeps you doing things that prevent you from, you know, sitting around all day, and just overall is correlated with all these other good practices. So that's steps. And by the way, when you're dieting steps can come in handy when you when you ramp those steps up, you know, if you're currently getting 6000, you ramp it up to 10,000. During a dieting phase, you might see your expenditure actually go up where you could actually more calories than you would. And then cardio. So I want to emphasize that we want to limit cardio to primarily walking, and then bursts of cardio as needed as a little bit of a calorie burn boost. But we want to stay away from these long bouts of medium intensity cardio, because they affect recovery from resistance training. And they could also cause other issues, if it's something like running where we have issues with your joints, that can cause other recovery problems. But the other thing that too much cardio does is it sends an endurance signal to your body that we need to be efficient with calories. And that's not what we want to do, we want to be inefficient with calories by prioritizing muscle. So the rule of thumb is to limit that kind of cardio to 50% of your lifting time. So if you live three days a week for an hour, that's three hours, you shouldn't do more than an hour half hour and a half of cardio. And that doesn't include walking. So like walk as much as you want seriously, you can walk for hours and hours, but limited to 50% of your time. And I prefer modes like high intensity interval training, with a short, short all out effort and a two to 3x. Rest, so on off on off on a one to two ratio or one to three ratio, or just something like walking on an incline treadmill riding a bike. Okay, so now, I've covered a lot here. And I just want to go ahead and apply these three scenarios to some or apply these two, three real life scenarios. skinny fat, somewhat overweight, and very overweight. And in all three cases, if you are a client of mine, you came in whatever situation you came in with, we want to set you up for success first, okay, I'm not going to stress your body right away with muscle building or fat gain, we're going to find your true maintenance calories. First, this might take a week, it might take two months. And while we're doing that, and by we I mean this is what you can do as well is while you're finding your maintenance calories, which means you have to eat enough food, right? Don't keep trying to diet get up to the highest amount you can eat without losing weight. While doing that you're going to start these other things we talked about, you're going to start resistance training, you can work on getting more steps, and you can increase your protein. And you can go back to Episode 25, where I go into great detail about this whole metabolic prep phase. So for most people, this means eating more and doing these other. Okay, once we've done that, no matter who you are, you start with that, then there are specific goals for each scenario. So the first scenario is skinny fat now by skinny fat. I mean, maybe it's a loaded term or controversial term. But I think we all know what it mean. This is the result of the repeated dieting we talked about before the body fat overshooting. But this is someone who's now dieted again, and they've lost a bunch of weight. And they're at what they thought was their target weight, their ideal weight, let's say they were 170 pound female. And now they've gotten down to 140. And they're like, Yeah, I hit my weight. But I don't feel so great.

Philip Pape 38:32

I don't like how I look, I'm not comfortable and body, I've got excess skin, I just don't have great energy. And no, my sleep is not great, something's off on my hormones, and on and on. And, you know, you might have loved handles, you know, kind of a flabby midsection or whatever. And I've been there myself. So and that's what we call skinny fat, because your body composition is actually a pretty high percentage of fat even though you're at a weight. So for a person like this, I'm gonna go right into building muscle right after we do the prep phase, we're gonna go right to building muscle because you don't need to lose more weight. So right away, you're gonna go in a calorie surplus of like we said before, point one 2.25%. And honestly, somebody who's at this level, I might push them if they're a newbie, I might push him to the point three 5% a week, you know, battle one and a half percent a month. Because you're not going to gain that much fat, you're gonna gain a lot of muscle, you're going to be very responsive, most likely. And you're going to spend at least six to nine months in that. Once you've done that you've now let's say you've gained 20 pounds, we've got back up to 160, maybe half of that as muscle and now you spend about 12 weeks losing 10 pounds of fat. Now you've now you've gone from 140 to 150 and all of it pure additional muscle. I'm not going to do the math here, but you can figure out how the body composition has obviously improved if you've gone from 140 to 150 and that extra 10 pounds is pure muscle. Okay, so that's it for skinny fat. Now you if you thought I was going to spend a lot more time talking about each scenario you I guess the big surprise is that all the lead up to now has shown you that the process is basically the same no matter who you are, which is a good thing, right simplifies it. But you might have a different starting point and have to go one direction or the other, before you finally get to your ideal composition. Okay, so the second category is someone who is somewhat overweight. And I would define that as like 10 to 30 pounds overweight. Now, when we say overweight, we mean, you, you think you're about 10 to 30 pounds over what you want to be at. But you may not know that what you want to be at is a different weight once you've improved your body composition, but that's okay, right? Because you know, from your history, hey, every time I've been, you know, 150, I been a little bit more comfortable with my body at 170. Right? You kind of know that. But now, once we work on body composition, and you improve that, you might, you might say, Hey, I look great at 180, I feel great, I have extra strength, like I'm strong and light at the same time. That's my new ideal way you're gonna get there it happens. But in the meantime, we're going to say that, once you've gone through the metabolic prep phase, we can actually go either direction here, okay, I would encourage you to continue at maintenance, or even a slight surplus, believe it or not, to build muscle first at this point, because you don't have you're not that much overweight, and you're you're a beginner. So I would rather you take advantage of what they call the newbie gains, and gain as much muscle as you can right now, because it's easy to cut the fat off later. And it's gonna make you feel better, you're gonna eat more carbs, you're going to establish all these new habits and a much easier way, you're not going to worry about dieting, you're going to shift up your expenditure, all those things. And then after, again, about maybe six months of building you can cut. But here's the estrus. If you come to me, you're 2030 pounds overweight, and

Philip Pape 41:45

you're just like, there's no way you're going to have me gain weight, like there's no way, that's crazy, I came to you to lose weight, I'm not gaining weight, okay, in that case, what we can do is either keep you at maintenance or going to a very slight deficit. And what I found with a lot of people, if they have that extra weight, they can still build muscle since they're new to the game, while losing a little bit of weight on the way. And while they're doing that their expenditure goes up with their steps in their training. And their deficit actually increases without them trying to lead increases because their expenditure goes up, even if the calories stay the same, right? So the gap gets bigger, you end up losing more weight. And then after say maybe three months, you're probably around your ideal weight, what you thought it was, that's what I would say, Okay, let's, let's stop this right now. And let's really focus on building muscle. Which brings me to the final category, which is very overweight, okay. And this is more than 30 pounds. But typically, we're probably looking at 50 6070 pounds or more very overweight, lot of weight to use, lose. And for men, this man, this might be your 25 30%, probably even higher body fat, maybe it's like in the 40s or 50s, potentially, of percent body fat. So right here, right off the bat, we go to the metabolic prep, and then go right into an aggressive deficit, like this is the time where you do want to just lose fat for your that's more important than your cholesterol, your blood pressure, your joints, all the things we talked about, let's lose fat, but we're doing it while training, getting protein and getting steps. Magic happens, okay? Because this is where body re composition usually occurs, body re composition is simultaneously building muscle while losing fat. And when you're very overweight, it's actually pretty easy to do. Because you have such a reserve of calories on your body, that you are feeding yourself from your body. I mean, that sounds kind of gross. But you know what I mean, you're feeding yourself from your fat reserves in for quite a while. And I've seen this happen. And often what happens is your expenditure goes up, your weight goes down, you're in a big deficit. And yet, it doesn't take a huge cutting calories to do it. Because of all the other things. Then at some point, you can decide, okay, if you've done it for four or five months, we need a diet break before we continue, or hey, you know, I'm a little overweight now. But I feel so much better. I have so much more muscle. Now. Let's stop with the diet. And let's go the other direction very conservatively for a while before we cut all the way to my final level. Okay, I just covered a ton of information. And as usual, I would say at this point you the listener, the watcher can do one of two things. You can either take this information, study it, rewatch it, reach out to me with questions, I'll answer questions whenever you send them to me, I love answering questions, go forth, conquer, give it a go. Or you can work with a coach who can take you through these phases. Make all the adjustments along the way. Provide some accountability, some education, some confidence, so then you can continue on so if you need a coach, I am currently accepting applications for one on one coaching. You just have to DM me on Instagram at Wits & Weights or Facebook or go to my website wits & weights.com/coaching. And we together will go through this entire process and much more while all the nuances all the details, all the individualized First approach that you might need that you know, make you unique compared to someone else. To improve your body composition over a six month period, you get weekly check ins, private group access 24/7 direct access to me in our professional app. And then I also offer a guarantee that if you don't achieve the improvement in body composition you want by the end of six months, I will work with you for free until you do because I know this stuff works. So again, just DM me on Instagram at Wits & Weights or Facebook or go to wits & weights.com, forward slash coaching. And if you found this discussion helpful, if you have questions, just comment on the video, click the link in the show notes or go to wits & weights.com and look for the Ask Philip section on the homepage. And I promise to get back to you with answer. Thanks as always for supporting the show. Thanks for listening to the show. Before you go, I have a quick favor to ask. If you enjoy the podcast. Let me know by leaving a five star review in Apple podcasts and telling others about the show. Thanks again for joining me Philip Pape in this episode of Wits & Weights. I'll see you next time and stay strong.

Philip Pape 10/4/22 Philip Pape 10/4/22

Ep 27: Build Muscle and Perform Better Using Effective Training and Program Design with Eric D'Agati

Eric D’Agati joins me to talk about training. Eric has spent over 20 years in the fitness industry as a coach, trainer, and instructor. Each year, he travels around the world teaching and speaking to trainers, coaches, and therapists as a lead instructor for Functional Movement Systems and guest speaker for prestigious organizations. He also appeared in the NY Times bestseller “The 4-Hour Body” by Tim Ferriss.

Eric D’Agati joins me to talk about training.

Eric has spent over 20 years in the fitness industry as a coach, trainer, and instructor. Each year, he travels around the world teaching and speaking to trainers, coaches, and therapists as a lead instructor for Functional Movement Systems and guest speaker for prestigious organizations including Mt. Sinai Hospital, New York University Medical, the Navy SEALS, The Mayo Clinic, and multiple major universities. Eric also appeared in the NY Times bestseller “The 4-Hour Body” by Tim Ferriss.

His list of training clients includes an Olympic Gold Medalist, All-Americans, National Champions, World Series Champions, and Pro-Bowl athletes. He also works with many high-level sports teams from high school to professionals.

Eric’s latest projects include “Diamond Revolution Training,” an online training platform for baseball and softball athletes, and the “Principles of Program Design”, an educational workshop series and coaching service for trainers and clinicians on the art and science of designing training programs.

Topics discussed in this episode:

The top priorities someone should focus on to improve their health, fitness, and performance
The difference between a workout and a program
Competence, awareness, and application as success factors for improved health
Assessing your history, current state, and goals when working with a coach, trainer, or starting a new program
Injury, mobility, and recovery
Learning how to develop movement and increase physical capacity
Improving your body composition
Obstacles that stop someone from performing their best
Developing athletic skill, capability, and capacity
Managing volume and recovery
Exercise selection, unilateral movements, and Eric’s favorite lift/exercise

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Transcript

Philip Pape 00:08

Welcome to the Wits & Weights podcast, where whitse discuss getting strong and healthy with strength training and sustainable nutrition. I'm your host, Philip pape, and in each episode, we examine strategies to help you achieve physical self mastery through a healthy skepticism of the fitness industry, and a commitment to consistent nutrition and training for sustainable results.

Philip Pape 00:31

Welcome to another episode of weights and weights. Today I have a very special guest Eric de Gatti, and we're going to talk about training. Eric has spent over 20 years in the fitness industry as a coach, trainer and instructor. Each year he travels around the world teaching and speaking to trainers, coaches and therapists, as a lead instructor for functional movement systems and guest speaker for prestigious organizations, including the Navy SEALs, the Mayo Clinic and multiple major universities. Eric also appeared in The New York Times bestseller The Four Hour Body by Tim Ferriss is this training clients includes an Olympic gold medal this all Americans, national champions, World Series champions and provable athletes. Eric's latest projects include diamond revolution training, and online training platform for baseball and softball athletes, and the principles of program design, an educational workshop series and coaching service for trainers and clinicians on the art and science of designing training programs. He also has a really cool podcast that I've been listening to lately. And Eric, it's great to have you on the show. Thanks for joining me to talk training.

Eric D'Agati 01:34

Thanks for having me. And thanks for being a listener. And we can't wait to get you on there at some point.

Philip Pape 01:39

Yeah, likewise, I love talking this can talk about it all day. And I want to start by digging into your background as a Coach and Trainer, specifically around programming. But I do want to get into performance and injury prevention a little bit later. Tell us about your background, and I guess your unique approach to training and programming. Okay, so the background is that I was always fascinated,

Eric D'Agati 02:04

you know, but the impact of of training and what it can have. And so the kind of to go all the way back, I had a situation where I was always you know, it depending on how loosely use the term I was an athlete growing up. I always loved playing baseball and football were my two main sports. But you get to a point at five, six, where you realize those who can't do must teach. And so how can I get into sports and do something so I kind of always had that in the back of my mind. At the same time I was in my early 20s, late teens and I had some really bad back issues don't know why. And was sleeping on the floor for about four months or so in my mother, you know, because I was just stubborn and stupid. And my mother said look, you gotta go get this checked out. You're not gonna live your life like this. You're too young. So I went to my general practitioner, I didn't know any better wait in the office for two hours to go sit on, you know, the paper for another hour. And then finally have look at my back. I always joke he looked at my back like I would look if you open up the hood of my truck Are you like, I have no idea what I'm looking for. Unless like there's an extension cord on it, right? So he looked at my back like that and said could be anything. And I said really I just waited three hours for you to tell me could be anything. So I got frustrated. And I said, You know what, I'm just gonna go to the gym. I'm just gonna look at every machine or exercise that says back and I don't care what it does or how it does. I'm just gonna try them on I started doing it. And by sheer luck, my back started feeling better. So it got me into investing time in the gym. And I said, You know what, if I'm gonna invest this time, I want at least know I'm doing it right started learning more and more study out. Let me let me give this a shot. And so went and started off with getting every certification that there was and back in the, you know, mid to late 90s. If you sent me a brochure or pamphlet in the mail for Hey, we got a certification, you got a sucker because I would buy it. So I did every certification there was and then I lucked out and met some cool people along the way, I was able to do two levels of Paul checks and internship with him I did two levels of Charles Poliquin 's internship. And then I also got the unique ability to meet both Lieber and great cook when they're in the real early stages of FMS before it was even really a course and so you know, when they had their first one of their first live certification courses, I brought my whole staff there and then kind of got hooked in and kept you know, kept bugging them and they said you know what, you kind of know this stuff, why don't you come help us teach some courses? And that led to Hey, do you think you could teach a course and became one of their lead instructors back in around 2005 2006. And what drew me to the FMS was the same thing that drew me to a lot of those other courses that that I always was fascinated by the assessment piece that you know what, why would I guess you know, I when I went to the gym beginning I guess but if I would have known this information ahead of time and had somebody tell me no, you need to do these and these I could have saved a lot of wasted time. So anything that would teach me anything in terms of better information gathering and data gathering, so you know I did every course I could you know from a fitness side but then also at the same time, my brother was going to school for his doctorate in physical therapy. So I'd steal his books and sneak in his classes and start to learn about stuff like surely SARM and Vladimir yanda and, and concepts of movement and how people can gain better awareness and better performance through those types of avenues. And that led me down to all other trails learning about, you know, Alexander Technique and felt in Christ and all these different I said, you know, what, everybody out here is this one trick pony. And it's all kind of like, pick your guru type of industry, right? I remember early on, I had a check shirt on at a conference and a guy who I kind of knew he goes, I, I know who you are, because you're one of those check, guys, I can't talk to you. I'm like, what does that mean? I'm also as that's your ski guy. I'm also a Poliquin. Guy. I'm also like, I'm about 50 different guys. And why wouldn't you take all those things that you have at your disposal and put them all into one soup? And so ever since then, it's always been this accumulation of what else can I put into the recipe and, and make it better, so I can make this a more efficient and effective process. And that's kind of what the education has been and continues to be. And so trying to look at things holistically and not just go a mile deep, but also be a mile wide. There's a great term that Kelly Surrett uses called being a savage generalist. And that's what I strive to be daily,

Philip Pape 06:21

bother to make sure you're like a sponge. It sounds like you started early, kind of most people have the back injuries later in life, right? And then they go through the MRI process, and they go through that. And then maybe they get lucky enough for someone to tell them, maybe we should start getting stronger. And you came in from the other direction. Right? And then we're talking that the 90s.

Eric D'Agati 06:41

This is mid to late 90s. Yeah.

Philip Pape 06:43

So you actually had to read books, right? You had to seek real teachers for this. Yeah, there wasn't,

Eric D'Agati 06:49

there was nothing online, I mean, my original courses, and now I'm really dating myself, all my original like check information was on VHS, like I have a bunch of stuff courses on CDs. And like for your listeners, I'll have to explain what those are VHS, were big boxes of tape that we get stuck in this giant machine. CDs were these little round metal circles that you'd have to play. And if you didn't stand completely, still, they would skip. But that's how I got a lot of my education. There wasn't a nearly as much available to and so it was it was more of a quest than it was just let it fall in your email inbox.

Philip Pape 07:24

Yeah. And then it sounds like you through tons of trial and error and learning soaking it up and becoming an instructor over time you became a better Coach and Trainer, which I think is a journey a lot of us have gone on, as opposed to let's say the person who gets everything from social media and maybe immediately goes out and is a guru, as you said before. So I guess if we step back and look at the big picture, what would you say from all this knowledge you've gained? And all this synthesis and distillation of information, the big priorities, the big things that people should focus on? If they're just getting started? So they're overwhelmed? Right? They haven't gone through two, three, however many decades of learning that you did health fitness performance, where do they start?

Eric D'Agati 08:07

That's a great question. So the first thing is, be have a critical eye. You know, in even to this day, I always wake up with the assumption that everything I've learned to this point could be completely wrong, right? Because there's a lot of things that we that I did learn back then that are that have been dispelled whether it was at the time, that was the best information that we had. Whether it was remember, you had that magic window, you had to get your protein shake in. Yeah, right. And so that's kind of been disproven, we thought that there was these, these really strict cutoff points that once you got to six reps, that's where hypertrophy kicked in. And then once you got to 12, or 15, then it shut off, well, it's now you can, you can really get that from like three to 30 reps, right. So always waking up every morning and being humbled to say, You know what, everything I learned yesterday could be completely wrong. And I'm gonna wake up today and try to prove it. And if at the end of the day, it still holds, then I promise to keep that in my toolbox. And so, like, if you look at different things that have come along in our industry, if the two extremes like yoga, there's a reason it's been around for 1000s and 1000s of years, because it stands the test of time and there's so much gold and elegance and what is in that model, whatever version of it you've come to know and then like curves was coming on in a year. Right? And so even with those those things like that, and not to to bash anyone model, but there was still something in there that I'm gonna say, okay, it worked for a while. What was it about it that worked? And where did they fail? Well, what worked for a while is they tapped into a segment of the population that we're not getting, and we can get into the weeds on this one that we're failing massively really to get people engaged because the vast majority people don't exercise, right the people that are listening to this or we're preaching to the choir, right it's the vast majority that are that are on scooters and Walmart's that are just broken, that we need to get to. But, but the challenge is, is how do we get to them and what a place like curves that has said, Alright, we're gonna give you a safe place. If you're, if you're someone who's an insecure, maybe overweight and female, we're gonna give you a safe place to work out. And we were to just dumb meatheads to realize the gym business up until recently, was just that it was just a meathead place. It's intimidating people, it scared people away. And so they gave the safe space. So how can we capitalize on that, and just give a better delivery of product, but still capitalize on that, you know, CrossFit, everybody loves to, you know, Crusher, but CrossFit has, has done an incredible job of changing our vision of what fitness is. And for a lot of people out there, up until they came along, it was I go into a gym with shiny machines that I sit on a machine that does one thing I look at the little placard, it says he does this muscle when I do 10 reps. And then when I'm done, I can just go up on another machine, and I just, you know, do that for a half hour, the blinking lights. And that's what I thought fitness was and you know, that really bore the shit out of people and scare people away. So CrossFit made it one where hey, I can I can do some athletic things I can do things that are outside of that that model to is it's tapping into there's there's an any need in our DNA to be challenged, and they push that button you're in said, you're better than just doing a seated, you know, back and forth fix machine, you can do more things. And then the biggest thing is they created a culture where they're, they're extremely loyal within that brand. And so it created a culture where people felt comfortable, and people wanted to be part of that. And so that is those are some of the things we need to tap into in the fitness industry that we're not doing a really good job of, or getting better at it, because we're getting a better demographic involved with us. But that's something that that, as trainers and coaches, that is a blind spot for us.

Philip Pape 11:57

I agree with everything you said there's a lot to unpack, but I want to touch on a couple of things. So the CrossFit story is my story. Just you know, most of my life was pretty sedentary, I didn't have an athletic background like you and it was maybe what we were pregnant with our first kid that I said, I need to get in shape. And CrossFit called to me for whatever reason, and and I credited for learning about barbells learning, the Olympic lifts, right? Maybe it injured me along the way too. But you know, I learned a lot from it. And your your, your insight here about appealing to more people in the average person who who's just sitting out there and not working out? How do we take something that we know is effective, right? You mentioned, I hate to use the term evidence based But effectively, what you described earlier was the scientific method of taking things at work, jettison things that don't and continue to refine what we know. And not assuming that we know everything. How do we take that approach combined with whatever we think is the most effective form of training? Maybe it's maybe it's strength, maybe it's hypertrophy, or whatever for an individual and and get them to do that. So like if, if, if we think strength is the foundation? How do we get more, you know, soccer moms to be interested in that.

Eric D'Agati 13:08

So I think and this is going to be a little bit their different answer than then trying to sell people on strength training, trying to sell you on strength training, or I need to sell the person who has no clue. And if we try to sell them on all the research and the data and all that stuff, they know all that. And everybody knows that we shouldn't be eating cheese filled pretzels at the mall, but we still do it. Right. So I'm gonna say the first two things is in this is a skill set that at that I don't think we have enough as coaches and trainers is we need to we need to be able to, to create an avenue of honesty and awareness. Okay, and I think those those were, that's where we need to start number one awareness to realize that most people don't know what they don't know, there's kind of that famous four levels of competence. There's, the bottom layer is unconscious incompetence, or screwed up, you don't even know it, right? That's when someone walks into me and they do a movement screen or we do something, they're like, Wow, I can imbalance on one leg or I can rotate to the right. I didn't even know, you know, walking around. But now that I know, the next year is that conscious incompetence? Meaning I'm screwed up, what do I do about it? That's where most western medicine leaves, either you're gonna slap you with a label and you have it scientists or whatever they're gonna call it, and okay, I got that, but what do I do about it? Or am I just, that's my scarlet letter, I gotta live with that I have, you know, I have, you know, SI joint issues, or I have, you know, sciatica, or I have all these things that people label themselves with, and they don't know what it means. Then the next step is conscious competence, meaning you can do this, you can fix this, but you're gonna have to be very aware to do it, it means you're gonna have to change your habits, you're gonna have to change your awareness, you're gonna have to, to gain that and once you do that for long enough, then that's going to become natural, it's gonna become reflexive. That's the ultimate layer that we got to get you to is this unconscious incompetence where you don't, you don't think twice about, you know, going in going for a walk as part of your day because that's now part of who you are. And part of that that awareness piece is also getting the awareness of where you coming into this You know, and at what point are you coming into this and I always say, when I write a program, I need to know three things I need to know about your past, what was your medical history, injury, history, training, history, all those things coming into it, because that's all going to factor in that I need to know where your present is. And that's where we really need to be honest. And that's where evaluation will kind of sift some of that out. And it's not to say, Oh, you're dysfunctional, or imbalanced, or all the terms that we like to use, but it's to say, Okay, well, here's where we need to start, right, we can get to a lot of places, this isn't where you're going to end. But this is where we're going to start. And at that point, is an interesting

Eric D'Agati 15:37

awareness piece of where you're coming to it from. So you have two different segments of the population I talked about yet, you have people that are fragile, and yet people that are broken, right, the fragile people are the ones that since COVID, have done, the most movement they've done is to go get up and get the Door Dash, right? That they're very sedentary. And so because of that, their bodies are starting to wilt away and break down. And so that person comes into and they say, Oh, my shoulder, my hip, My knee hurts, right? That's a very different person than the broken person, the broken person is the one who might still be sitting on the couch, doing zooms for the last three years, but they've gone out and they've done obstacle course races or joined CrossFit or did whatever, and now they're shoulder hip, or they're near backwards, they're two very different people, if you just get out your recipe sheet for here's what I do for knee, knee pain, you're gonna fail miserably, neither of those people are gonna get better, because they're there for different reasons. And they also may be going back to different environments. So you need to know, what's the future? Where do I need to get you to? Do you want to just be able to get up and down the stairs without paying you? Or do you want to go play competitive tennis? And part of that is challenging people to say is that all that you expect of yourself, right? So at some point, you look yourself in the mirror and said, like, I don't want to feel like this, like, I'm better than this. And like barbells don't scare me, this is actually kind of fun. And I expect more of myself at my age to then to be doing what I'm doing and, and kind of be able to push that button and have that real adult conversation to say, what is sufficient for you? And are you at that point? And you know, what are you willing to trade off to get to that point, because that may mean you got to go to bed a little bit earlier, it may mean you got to maybe change your your diet a little bit. And it may mean that you're going to have to do some training that may be a little bit uncomfortable at points, but but that's going to get you to where you're going to be satisfied with your level of physical sufficiency. And so that's really a different approach is really coming at it from an awareness and honestly place to say, you know, if you got the if you got the person who's fragile, they're scared to death to move, my brother, you know, does research and he's, you know, looked at outcomes, and he studies outcomes for a living. And he looked at what is one of the main reasons people fail in physical therapy. That is, number one is fear and avoidance of movement. They're scared shit to move, right? So you tell that person, hey, you need to go train and work out there. They're scared to death. So how do I get them in a non intimidating way to get them to embrace movement? And then for the broken person? Right? A lot of times they're broken, because they're the you know, and I'm gonna date myself again, remember Al Bundy, right, sure, for American children, about how he scored four touchdowns in the state championship game? Well, there's an entire demographic that I that's one of the group demographics that I seem to be getting a lot of is that 35 to 65 year old that scored four touchdowns in the state championship game and thinks they're still that person. Meanwhile, they haven't moved in 1020 years. And they want to be that person. And they're frustrated that they're not that person. But they can't. But if they go and start an exercise routine, and they just go load up the bench, and they wrecked their shoulder, like, oh, well, I guess I'm ready for the rocking chair. Now, I guess I'm broken, I can't do that anymore. And it's like, no, you're better now, you may not be able to go back to exactly what you were at 18. But you're gonna be a lot better than you are now. And looking at the, you know, the front, you know, windshield as opposed to the rear view. You know, you got your, your later years coming at you really fast. And what do you want those to look like? You know, Peter tear does a very elegant job of talking about your marginal decade and say that's the last 10 years your life, what do you want that to look like? And if you want to still be able to carry the groceries and go upstairs and not be a burden to your family? Well, we know that just the science shows you're going to lose a certain amount of growth hormone or certain amount of mobility and so forth every decade. So we got to get ahead of that. And if you're 50 Now, that means you should be here if you want to be there. It's 75. So we need to do everything we need to get you there right now. And framing it that way is coming from an honest place that people can really appreciate that you're you're they want to be challenged.

Philip Pape 19:40

Yeah, you're just throwing tons of wisdom at me, Eric, I try to keep up with everything here. But so here's so here's the here's what comes to mind. If someone is listening and they say this is this is amazing. So I need to I need to increase my awareness understand where I've been where I want to go. So it's going to be very goal specific, right? We have to have individualized approach that deals with my injury history and things like that. And I know a lot of people want to figure things out for themselves. Like you said, they're just some people just jump right into exercising. And we talked about the difference in exercise and training, or I think you you talk about a workout versus a program. Yeah. And I mean, short of having an amazing coach like you. And hopefully there's there's coaches out there that are accessible to people. But can can someone do a self assessment and kind of figure this out on their own? Should they be working with a coach? What's What's the thought process? What's the general process to avoid injury and start on the right foot?

Eric D'Agati 20:34

Okay, so yeah, you need to kind of figure out where you're at now, because you need is just as the assessment is, is basically writing your program. So when I'm doing an assessment on somebody, you know, day one, first thing I tell you is, Philip, I have no idea what I'm gonna do with you, right? And you're like, What are you talking about? You're doing this 25 years, you have not, what is your timeline, I have no idea what to do with you. Now, an hour later, I'm gonna have a real good idea what to do with you, and what not to do with you. Because as we go through an assessment that writes the program for me, so it's going to tell me, there's certain things so it's, you know, it's kind of like a menu. And if you have certain food intolerances or food allergies, you know, going in looking at a menu, there's certain foods you just need to avoid. Right? And and same thing with exercise that if you can't touch your toes, and you know, probably deadlifting kettlebell swings, not the best thing for you. Could you get away with it a couple times, sure. But you can also get away with smoking Marlboro reds and drinking whiskey every day for a while. Right, sometimes longer than others. But I wouldn't use that as my my plan for living a long, healthy life. So kind of knowing what that menu is. And then the better you move, the more that that that menu expands, the better more fit you are, the more that menu expands. So figuring out what's my menu to start with, what can I and can I not to doubt the low hanging fruit is like just going for a walk. That's everybody can do that. And some people don't even there was we were talking before we went on and talking about Twitter debates. And like there was a, there was an Twitter debate about if walking counts as exercise. And it made me want to quit the industry on the spot. And it's like, you this is, this is really what we're arguing about why like, of course, it's exercise, it makes an huge impact. Even if you're fit, it's going to make an impact in terms you can use that for recovery. You can use that for a lot of things. So like, how would you This is why people don't want to exercise because we're idiots arguing about trap bar deadlifts, and if walking counts, right? So that's where that's where you kind of start. So a coach is gonna be really helpful to decipher that, because you're gonna save a lot of time. And what is the you know, time is your most valuable asset? It's the one thing that that'll never come back, you know, this day, this time, we'll never be here again. So how much is your time worth? So with that, for me, I'd rather save the time and invest a little bit upfront and say, hey, where do I start? Now, if you get a good coach, the other thing they'll build do is they will not make you dependent on them. My goal is to get the training wheels off as soon as possible. So you don't need me anymore. I don't I'm not here for you count your reps, or count your sets or show you exercises I have means I can deliver that to you through through an app and through videos and those sorts of things. The last thing I want to do is watch you exercise. My thing is to get you the game plan, right, you can get exercise for free on YouTube, they'll pay me for that, right? The thing is, you don't know which ones to do, you don't know when to do and you don't know how many to do, you don't know, you know how to structure all that. So that's what I'm here for. Don't come to me for exercises, if you're just getting exercises, then like, like you said earlier, that's just a workout. And that's not to say a workout is a bad thing. Everyone said, wow, workout may be fun. You can go do something as a workout and it's fun, but it doesn't, it's may not get to your to your goal. That's what a program is. And there's a big difference between the two. Now workouts can be within a program provided they're specific for what your, your needs and goals are.

Philip Pape 23:52

Got it. And I think the parallel in the nutrition space, because that's what I do would be don't come to me for a macro plan, don't come to me for a meal plan, right, we're trying to learn a bunch of skills that'll that'll allow you to fire me in six months, and, and choose how to get to your goal whenever you want in the future. So I like that analogy from a training perspective. And actually a few years back, I my back squat was terrible. And I finally said I gotta get a coach because I had had coaches over the years. But you know, I got stubborn and said I can do this myself, finally got a coach. And in one hour, he fixed the things that had been plaguing me for two years. So just for the listeners out there, the time is money thing is really important because now you've avoided years of potential injury and lack of progress. So yeah, I like that analogy workout and a program. And we talked about it has to be individualized based on your goals based on your movement capabilities. So if and you said people will get stronger generally if they start on a movement, they may be weakened, but let's talk about the what did you say broken I think person fragile, fragile and broken, fragile and broken. And I don't know if broken also includes let's say an older client who might have arthritis in their shoulder and they just can't do an overhead press for example, what? You know, how would you handle that situation?

Eric D'Agati 25:05

So my first question back is why can't they do the overhead press right? So the arthritis doesn't necessarily tell me anything because if you took an MRI and an x ray of everything in my body right now God knows what you'd find. Most doctors would tell me to be to lay in bed and don't move, right but I still do everything I need to do I guess today front squat it I did pull ups and you all those things and and so if we, if we look at a lot of these things, we can get scared. And unfortunately, there's there's some unscrupulous clinicians who prey on that to say, Oh, you have a bulging discs, you have this disc, you have this spinal abnormality, you know, what 90% of people over 35 have that if everybody if all those were all those calls direct back pain, everybody be in, you know, be writhing in pain right now. But they're not most of them are asymptomatic. So why did why is this an issue for you? Is it a mobility problem? Right? And if it's a mobility problem, is that something I can even do something about? Isn't mobility problem, because there's a joint issue while that you may need to get some clinicians hands on? Or it may not be able to be fixed up other than surgical? Or is it? Is it a motor control problem? Is it a strength issue is it isn't any one of these issues? That's what we have to filter out first? So now I'm not guessing. Because just just to make the assumption, oh, I have arthritis in my shoulder, I can overhead press on. And that's, I don't buy that, I have to find out why. And find out why do you have the restriction, and then there may very well be a restriction. And then here's the reality, you could also live a really long happy life without doing an overhead press. And so I still need you to give you the capability to get your arms overhead. So you get something out of the cabinet. That's or get your shirt on. But it doesn't mean I need to overhead press a dumbbell. There's a lot of different ways I can go about that. And there's a lot of different, you know, artful ways I can make regressions and lateralization is to steal Charlie Weinger off term of those things that will create a similar effect without causing more damage.

Philip Pape 26:58

Okay, yeah, so that's a fair point, right? People get stuck in thinking they have to do certain movements to get stronger, they have to get certain movements to build muscle. And you're saying that there are plenty of options there. And you have to work with the person and figure out what it is. Now,

Eric D'Agati 27:12

here's the other thing I'll is a counter argument to those people who get caught in this dogmatic thing of you have to do your push pull strengthening, right? All that whole laundry list that we all know, is are you trying to determine like the phrase I like to use? Are you training to get good at exercise? Or you're training to get good, right? So there's a lot of people move really, really well. Like, go watch a martial artists go watch, like Ido portal or somebody like that move? And ask them when the last time you did a dumbbell overhead press? Like, we're so dogmatic and we're thinking that it has to be confined to the set of exercises? And and what if I get better at that? Did I really get stronger? Or did I just get good at an exercise? Right? real strength is where I can walk into any setting. And I can actually apply that, right? If I'm only good at your, your exercises that you pick based on a set of confirmation biases that you have. I'm just good at your workout. I'm not really strong, right? When I can actually go and do things like the joke I like to use is if you work out all the time, but you still can't help me move a couch, your workout sucks, right? You should be able to apply that, you know, in multiple ways. Now there is some levels of specificity. You know, you're not going to go from being a champion cyclist to a champion marathon runner, we saw that with Lance Armstrong is the greatest cyclists in history, but was a middle of the pack marathoner. There is some specificity in there. But there's a general physical preparedness that you know, you don't need to do. You could never touch a barbell or a dumbbell and still be very, very capable at those things. Agree.

Philip Pape 28:47

Eric D'Agati 29:43

Okay, so, again, I get just create some basic awareness. Okay, so what's gonna create change in your body composition? Realize that that number one in nature and the nature of ourselves is that we're fighting to just live another day, every cell in your body has one job, and it's to live to the next day. And so it's going to adapt to whatever you do to it. So whether it's hot in the room and you sweat, or it's cold and you shiver, it's going to adapt. And so with that, you're going to create change, you have to create some sort of stimulus to create that change. And if you've been doing the same program for a year or two years, whatever time it is, and you're and you're not continually changing, well, then because there's not enough stimulus to create an adaptation. So that's number one. So we have to create a stimulus that's going to create that change, and what is the specific adaptation that we're looking for? Right, if we want to look better in the mirror, well, that's just basically, you know, three layers, you know, the most simplistic level layer, level you have, you have your muscle, you have your skin, and then you got stuff that's in between there, the stuff is what you don't like the stuff is what you make your shirt uncomfortable, doesn't make you not want to be in a picture, all that kind of stuff, that's got to go away, right, so you can see the muscle and then when you get there, hopefully, there's some muscle to see, or you're just a skinny fat person, right. And so we need to account for that muscle being there to actually be worth looking at. And then the stuff in between, well, that's really just your your energy balance. And so with that energy balance, it's a matter of calories in calories out at the most fundamental level. And then with that, what's going to be the habits and processes that are going to make you most successful to stay in that energy balance? Could you eat Froot Loops and stay under your caloric deficit? Yes, you absolutely can't, it's just not a real good recipe. Forget the health aspects, who cares, I just want to look at in the mirror, it's gonna be hard to sustain that, right? Because you're gonna, you know, anybody, any kid who's ever woken up, we're gonna have to watch cartoons on a Saturday morning knows you're not going to eat just one bowl, you're going to keep going until the box is gone. And whereas, you know, nobody ever ate way too much spinach, right? You know, like, I'm sure you love the people that come in and say, Well, I heard Bananas are high in sugar, I shouldn't eat those and say, look, and 20 years, no one's ever come in and said, I got so fat eating these bananas. It's like, No, it doesn't work that way. So let's get that let's get the reality of what first? What are you actually eating? Are you even aware of that? And so let's first let's capture what you're actually eating and start to track that. That doesn't mean you're gonna weigh and measure everything for the rest of your life. But you need to be aware of that holy crap, I didn't realize there's, you know, 700 calories in that whipped cream fancy thing that I get at Starbucks every day. So save yourself $9 And just have black coffee, right? Or have a cup of tea or something like that. That's our first step. And what habits can we change from a from a caloric deficit standpoint, they're gonna allow you to be successful, usually having more protein is going to make them more successful, usually making sure you get enough fiber in greens and fruits and grains, and those things that'll help you be more successful, because you're just not all that hungry after you've eaten enough of that, at least less hungry than if eating a bowl of Froot Loops. So let's create the awareness on that path. Right. And then if you've, you've gotten that dial down, that we can always go deeper. But most people, that's where their biggest struggle is, right? Make sure we get enough water, make sure we get enough protein, make sure we get enough, you know, greens and grains and that kind of stuff and fiber. And then, you know, if it still needs to get more dialed in, then we can always go deeper. And then in terms of exercise, we need something that's going to that's going to add a little bit of muscle doesn't mean you're gonna be a bodybuilder, especially for that woman in her 40s. Unless you're taking steroids. I don't know about you're not going to get too big. I've spent the last 20 years trying to get too big there, which should happen that easy.

Philip Pape 33:30

That's the answer. You could try to get too big and you won't get there. Yeah,

Eric D'Agati 33:33

yes, never has that been a problem. Oh, my gosh, I have way too much muscle. So we need to add, we need to have some concern for muscle. And we need to do that with some level of strength training. It doesn't have to be bars on your back. It doesn't have to be some type of you know, fancy bodybuilding split, but you need to do something that's going to create some change the deeper you get, the more you're going to need to get a little bit more specific. But at the beginning, if you have no exposure to it, doing some simple bodyweight stuff can be more than enough. So let's start there. And then the other thing I want to do is to make this something that's that's doable, because what's the challenge most people have, you know, the most famous Four words and diet and exercise, especially body composition, is it all starts Monday, right, is that they they can't stay consistent, create the habit. So I said, Alright, let's make this livable. All right. Now, there are some exceptions to this because there are some people that have true food addictions. But let's talk about just the general person who's not in that subcategory. I tell him, we're gonna live by the 8020 rule. If you follow everything as you do from an exercise and diet standpoint, 80% of the time, the other 20% Screw off have whatever you want to have, you don't have to slice a piece or whatever ice cream, whatever your vices are, if you skip a workout, and you're supposed to do five days a week you do four, I'll still take it and you'll still get to where you want to be at a reasonable pace that you'll be happy with. Right? And so that way, that way we can honestly now look when you hand me a food log and I look at your journal of what you've eaten, and say okay, well, you're really like 5050 That's not at 24 If you want to have the freedom to go and get that that slice of pizza, you got to dial it up a notch, right? Because you're 5050 right now, and then starting to kind of challenge himself, okay, you got to push this in at 20. You can't go 100. Right? I shouldn't say you can, you can slash directive. But here's what's gonna happen, you're gonna be miserable. Like I went 100 I competed in bodybuilding, I brought a cooler bag, to family dinners, you know what that's like, being an Italian guy from Jersey when Shep was 60 people eating pot trays of food and you have a cooler bag? Totally. Right, totally. And you and your grandfather is yelling at you in Italian trying to figure out what what's your problem. So like, that's bizarre, that's not normal behavior, right. But I was doing it for a specific goal. And so with a specific goal is is it changed your percentages. So I tell people who are in one or two categories, your I'd like to change, I'm in no specific rush. But obviously, the sooner the better. Good, you're in at 20 person to start. Then the second person is I have a tryout I have a workout, I have the beginning of my season, or I have a wedding, I have a vacation that I have to be ready for, well, you may not get at 20, you may get 9010. Right. So that that you know three or four, you know, slip ups you get during the week turns into one or two, or maybe none, if we're getting closer and you're not there ready enough, because that dates not changing, you're not going to push back your vacation two weeks, so we have to dial it up a little bit more. But this is going into it knowing that this is specific for this time period, this is not going to be the rest of your life. And I think framing it in that is a little bit easier to handle. Because now it's anything I want. I don't feel like I'm trapped. I don't feel like the way actually do it with with nutrition as I give. And I do this a lot because I work a lot with with high school kids. But I do for everybody and say, Okay, we do the math, you're supposed to say three meals plus a snack, that's over seven days, 28 meals. So let's make it easy for math that's you know, 25 to 30 meals that gives you about four or five meals that you can have whatever you want. So I want you to wake up every Monday morning, you got five magic tickets, now, what you're gonna do is you're gonna cash that in for whatever crap you want to eat, right, you want to go have your fruity drink, you want to go have your, your pizza, your ice cream, whatever it is. And what you're gonna do is you're gonna keep in your back pocket, don't go out Monday morning for a stack of waffles and ice cream. Right? Because then you blow your tickets. Now you gotta suffer the rest of the week, what you're gonna do is get in situations and if you have a work dinner, or if your friends are going out for pizza, don't be the weirdo with a dried lettuce leaf in the corner, like and ostracize yourself and torture yourself, every slice of pizza, just hand them a ticket and say I'm okay with it. Right? If you get to the weekend, and you got a couple tickets left, you go out for a nice dinner and ice cream, whatever we want to have, because they all wash away, you can't carry them over from week to week. And then that way, it's like anything I want to really have, or I really have a hankering for I really want it's no more than four or five days away. So it makes it a whole lot easier to manage that. And this is something I can stick with for a long period of time as opposed to I'm going to do the six week, you know, better Abs program.

37:49

Yeah, I agree with everything you said. I mean, going back to the tracking to start, you know, I know there's controversy people have when it comes to tracking, does it does it cause issues? And I think the evidence supports that, you know, tracking is associated with better outcomes, assuming you didn't have some some issue beforehand with with tracking but your strategy of how do we, how do we deal with emotional and compulsive eating? We do it by thinking ahead and planning and there's different ways to do it. I like your strategy of the tickets actually hadn't heard that? Are these physical tickets? No, no, they're massive. Because that can work too. Yeah, and I've heard strategies, like, you know, banking, banking for the weekend, or, you know, you know, planning for a specific day ahead of time pre logging, you know, there's all these strategies, but the whole, the whole theme, I think, is your thinking ahead and in with a cool head, before you get into the moment, and you've planned for right, you're planning for your weekly calories, you know, you're trying to hit to hit a specific goal. And like you said, if someone is doesn't have a way in coming up, for example, on a very strict goal, they have a little bit of leeway. You're still trying to hit a specific calorie target for the week, right? We're not just willy nilly saying that we can eat, you know, two whole pizzas on Saturday, right? It still has to fit within there. So yeah, I agree with everything you said. And, okay, I guess that answers the question. So what about let's turn to I guess, performance, then if we did have somebody that had a slightly stricter goal for performance, it doesn't have to be diet related this week could be training again. It could be powerlifting could be sports, endurance, what are the biggest obstacles that prevent them from performing at their best? So I

Eric D'Agati 39:29

just break it down systematically and say, Okay, make sure we're not going to miss anything. That's everything I do is just basically a checklist, right? So I love the work that Atul Gawande did in his book Checklist Manifesto, where he just talks about the impact and power of checklists, and he used it in medicine, but I translate that in a training so Okay, on my big global checklist to say, especially for performance, there's three fundamental layers. So like Greg Cook was my mentor, my mentors Use it as movement, performance and skill. And to kind of take a step back so people can understand that the lay person when I explained to him I said, there's there's, there's competency, there's capacity and then skill. So competency is can you even get into the positions and shapes and postures you need to get in to perform that thing, whatever that thing is, you're gonna do so, you know, you want to go play tennis? Can you even rotate? Can you even lunge to decelerate? Can you get balance on a single leg? Can you can you do all those things that are gonna show up on a tennis court? Because if you can't even get to those positions in a slow controlled environment, now, you certainly aren't going to get into them, at least well, you know, once we get out there at full speed and the balls coming at you. So I want to check the competency box, do you believe that at least have that baseline of movement competency? Then from there, I'm going to look at your capacity. And to say, Okay, do you have Are you physically fit enough to play that sport, and then that means you need to generate a certain amount of you need to have a certain amount of strength, you need to generate a certain amount of power and speed, have a certain level of agility and so forth. And then from there, we can look at the specifics of, Hey, I can't get to my forehand, because of a lack of, you know, rotation of my T spine, or I'm struggling with my serve, because I can't get hip extension, whatever that may be, we can dial that down. But most people go right to that, right, they're going to come in and say, Oh, I went and my tennis coach said, I can't get hip extension, he gave me the stretches I should do. I say well, back back up. Okay, so did he know that you can't even touch your toes like that would probably be a bigger start, then trying to do some really specific stretch, because maybe if we clear up the big global stuff, that that really local specific stuff that may just go away. And we also may check a whole lot of other boxes in between. So we kind of start global, and then we'll go down to regional, and then we'll go down to to, to really local when it comes to movement, and then the same thing will happen when it comes to the levels of competency, and then translating that to skill. So that's really just the checklist that I go through. And the higher you go up the chain, the more specific you get. So that's really how I kind of go through that journey with an athlete and explain to him that we're still gonna have to go back and check those boxes every once in a while because we, if we get too deep into capacity, we may actually steal from some of our competency, right. And I've seen that too many times, I've worked in the NFL for nine years, where more than one athlete has told me, you know, I moved so much better before I got into the NFL. And obviously, there's the there's the, you know, the physicality of the game that beats them up. But they say, just athletically, I was just more athletic before I got here. And they kind of train that anatomy, unfortunately. And we have to make sure that we don't do that, that we don't screw people up.

42:41

Now, as far as capacity, which is there an aspect of capacity that is universal, I mean, between different sports and different types of athletes, where you see a recurring theme, that that's common, you know, what I'm getting at?

Eric D'Agati 42:54

Yeah, are there are some baseline, you know, markers, and that's, again, having having a system you have baseline markers to say, Okay, once we've hit this, unless you have a very specific goal for strength as an example, I think we're strong enough. And then now we can move on to other things, right, and I have those things. So a lot of times, I'll start off athletes with a lot of unilateral training in the beginning, say, Okay, I want to have you be able to do a single arm floor press. And when I have you be able to do a Bulgarian split squat, I don't want to do single leg RDL. And for every one of those, I have markers relative to body weight that I want you to be able to hit once you can hit those. If we need to go deeper down the road of strength, then that's where we can get, you know, more specific that way. But once you've kind of hit those, I just my job was just to maintain those. And every once in a while, I'll keep those in there just to make sure we're, we're still hitting those marks. But now there's a lot of other boxes to check. Like when I talk about my performance pyramid with an athlete. There's 59 boxes of things that we want to look at. So I'd say I can't spend all my time working on strength. It's one it's one I got 58 others I gotta get to. So you want to a minimum by having markers say at least you've hit the minimum now, do you need more than the minimum for your sport? That depends how strong Do you really need to be to hit a golf ball? How strong Do you really need to be to ride a ride a bike? Obviously more would be beneficial. But if it comes at the expense of other things, I'm not getting to that are even more beneficial. That's a prioritization problem.

Philip Pape 44:19

Okay. Does anybody like Bulgarian split squats?

Eric D'Agati 44:23

I mean, weirdos like me. But are I you know, doing an ISO version of that's even more, you know, sadistic but no one's ever said hey, can we do more split holds but

Philip Pape 44:35

what do you hold that position for the ISOs

Eric D'Agati 44:37

at the bottom, at the bottom, hit the bottom of that and hang out there for 30 seconds. ISOs are very powerful thing that they've kind of come back in vogue in the last year. So they're finding lots of correlations with helping with tendon strength and so forth. But it's always a great place for me to start with people. Because we're happy when you take away the moving parts literally. It's a lot easier to to figure stuff out to so Getting in the bottom of that, all right, I want you to feel where your pelvis is, I want you to feel how your foots contacting the floor, I want you to feel what your spine feels like now. And we can make these little adjustments to create awareness, because that's tough to do when they're moving up and down. So doing these different positions, and there's probably a subset, there's probably a subset about five or six that I really liked to use in the beginning stages of training to get people aware of these positions and shapes and postures to say, okay, get in that position, feel what it feels like to elevate your chest, okay? Now feel what it feels like to, you know, QL use spread out your collarbones and get open in your shoulders, get your head back into a into a position. That's a lot easier to learn for the end user when they're in a static position first.

Philip Pape 45:42

Yeah, I like that idea. I mean, there's there's versions of that, like, I guess you could say something like a pause squat, where again, you're in one position. But but the idea of using isometrics for that, I haven't quite heard that before. I think a study recently came out about calf training as well, that was that looked at isometrics and saw a great benefit for, but I think that was for hypertrophy. So speaking of athletics, what about a an older guy? I'm not old, but an older guy like me, who's never been athletic. You know, one of the reasons I joined CrossFit years ago was to get in that kind of environment. I mean, how would somebody like that, who doesn't, isn't looking to compete or perform athletically you know, as part of a team necessarily approach that, you know, what kind of goal would be a reasonable goal for them to pursue?

Eric D'Agati 46:31

Well, provided We've checked the box for movement competency, and they have no restrictions there, they have a full menu to order from right. That's where we look at some simple things. And if I had to have a checklist of like desert island, things that you could do, jump rope is going to be really high on that list. Okay, so it creates a jille not agility isn't one word, it creates rhythm, which is a huge, huge, hugely impactful thing on athleticism. I had Lee Taft on our on our podcast, who's brilliant, and talking about the impact of rhythm on athleticism, I always joke that you look at the most athletic people that have two things, they have rhythm, I'm gonna write a book and it's gonna be called rhythm and glutes, because you need to have some level of rhythm there's there's an elegance to when you watch a really good athlete, watch it Tyreke Hill run around watch a Steph Curry play basketball, there's, there's just such a fluidity and rhythm to that. And then you need to get the force power from somewhere and it's on that posterior chain most is where a lot of it starts. Not all of it, but it's where a lot of it starts. So I joke if you see somebody in a flat asset, a game, it's usually a referee or spectator. So you need to so one of the ways to start with a rhythm and to also get you more elastic. So you can get up on the ball your foot, and you can have that elasticity and actually have the stiffness, not lack of range of motion, stiffness, but stiffness and spring in your ankle. Jump rope is a great place to start number one. From there, once you've established that singles or doubles, or it doesn't matter, just just figure it out from the beginning, just figure it out. And then and then what you want to have is some simple things. Number one, is make sure the knee is straight. So you're getting that spring in the ankle, if you have what I call squishy knee, and you keep collapsing, then you're all working from the hip and the whole body's involved, you shouldn't look like that you should look pretty much straight line ear to ankle and just spring off spring off of that ball, your foot. Then there'll be should be a rhythm and cadence to it. Like I'll have people and I'll just clap my hands and have them keep to a certain rhythm. I'll even put like an EDM or you know, kind of kind of, you know, house music on the inside, keep the beat to that, right, create some rhythm and create some cadence with that. And can you do that. And then my last year is always make it look easy. Like smile, relax, breathe through your nose, you shouldn't be grinding, you shouldn't be gripping the handles, like get smooth and relaxed, that's gonna have such carryover to athleticism, whether you're playing pickup basketball, or tennis, or whatever it may be. So that's where I start. And then from there, the next thing is sprinting, right being able to sprint and like go all out because there's a big difference. And that's why you see go to, you know, go to any beer league softball game, and you'll see a bunch of people yanked hamstrings and torn Achilles because even though that person may go to the gym and jog, you know, five miles a day, there's a whole different representation and synchronization of how your muscles work. When you change over from a jog to a sprint, and then as soon as you have that high demand if I need to use this right now, on your Achilles on your hamstrings, that's when they pop in. They don't have that so you need to work up to be able to do some sprinting and it doesn't have to be long you're not doing gassers here you're not doing this for conditioning you're doing it to be able to access the muscles you do have access the strength you do have right away right and so can I just do and there's some really simple protocols you could follow. Zack they can't from where's he's at TCU has some great protocols. Derek Hansen has this very simple 10 yards 10 Sprint's protocol that he uses just Sprint 10 yards all out like hair's on fire, walk back and then do it 10 times and then do it multiple rounds of that, like really simple stuff like that. That's where I would start. And if I can only pick two, those would be the things I would do

Philip Pape 50:06

jump rope and sprinting. I like that I used to love the what is it death by death by 10 meter sprints, whatever they did in CrossFit. That's, that's excellent. So, so kind of related to,

Eric D'Agati 50:17

I'm sorry to cut you off. But going back to that, that sprinting for conditioning, right, okay, that's not what I'm talking about. So and that's really dependent on your goal, that's that, that's, if you're doing for conditioning great. But if you're doing it to improve your speed, and athleticism, there needs to be enough time for you to recharge and have quality. And so like there's a, there's a system that I use when I have athletes spring, where a little sprint either for distance or time, whether it's you're going to sprint, a 40 yard sprint, or going to sprint for five seconds, whatever it may be. And you're going to take an amp in an ample amount of rest. So you may take two, three minutes, and then your job is in your every rep is to meet or beat or at least come within 10% of that last one. So if I gave you five for easy math, I gave you five seconds to run 50 seconds, or 50 and you got 50 yards, your next rep has to be at least 45 yards in those five seconds. Once you can't meet that marker, your quality has gone down and now we're going to do is get really good at being slow. So that's that's going to be my quality control. And if you can do that 10 times great. If you get to and you lose your you lose that quality and you drop off more than 10% Go home, you're done.

Philip Pape 51:31

Interesting. So it all sounds like you can combine, maybe combine this I know some people like to do short hit sessions to bada or one to two, one to three ratio all out versus rest it, it almost sounds like it could fit in there. You know, from a time efficiency standpoint, with the addition that you control the quality, like you said, and try to try to hit that time, don't just go out and start

Eric D'Agati 51:54

pretty fit to do this on a Tabata protocol or that shorter rest period. So if you're doing conditioning, that's going to be a different animal. If you're if you're doing it for speed you need, you need a ton of rest, and you're not going to do a ton of reps either. Right? If you go all out, and do you know even six, all out sprints anywhere from from 20 to 40 yards, you're gonna know it, if you've done it truly the way you should do it. There was a football team that I used to wear high school football team that I used to work with a lot of their players, their coach had this thing and I guess because it sounded cool, where they'd run 4040s. And it was horrible, horrible for every aspect. It doesn't translate to football. It doesn't it all it did was give me a ton of business because the amount of Achilles, low back hip flexor strains hamstring pulls that I got from this one school because that was their protocol. It was it was great for business, but it was horrible what they put these kids through.

Philip Pape 52:49

Yeah, that's crazy. So I get your point, fair point about the conditioning versus the athletic development and recovery, I think is important from from an even larger perspective for a lot of people that I see working out four or five, six days a week, and I've gone through this myself where you just get beat up, right? And it kind of even when you try to take the loads, it seems to catch up with you and never quite go away. I mean, what, how do older folks manage that volume and manage that recovery, who really like to work out?

Eric D'Agati 53:22

Okay, so I use tons of analogy. So I always explain this to clients in the beginning that you're basically the farmer and you have seeds and you have soil you're training as the seeds and the soils what happens the other 23 hours in the day, now, if you go and plant your seeds on a rubber workout floor, nothing's gonna grow there. So what makes you have rich, fertile soil, it's your it's your habits and activities, those are the 23 hours a day, it's number one, your Sleep Number two, you know, or one day is your nutrition. So if you're up till two in the morning, you know watching Netflix or playing Call of Duty and you're you know, drinking soda or or, you know, bang drinks or or whatever it may be. And that's the only way you can keep yourself going. Eventually, you know, you're just kind of living on credit event and that bill is going to come. So what you do those those 23 hours gives you the fertile soil of where you can grow more. And so if you put an active focus on your recovery, it's gonna allow you to train harder. I mean, the ultimate is when guys just in people use steroids because it boosts your recovery. So they can train for for endless time and, you know, and not break down as much as soon as they come off, they fall apart. So it's really managing how much how much recoverability Have you built, how much resiliency Have you built and then that's tells me how much I can push and how hard I can push. And there are great markers you can use to kind of gauge that to know when it's time to peel back or when it's time to go and I have a readiness screen that I teach in our course and that I use do my clients every morning takes about three minutes and it looks at your movement competency for that day because maybe maybe You could rotate freely both ways. Last time I saw you, but since I saw, you might have slept on the couch or had a cross country flight or you played, you know, 72 holes of golf, and I'll send you can't rotate, right? And I was supposed to have you do some sort of, you know, medicine ball drill or something. And I want to know that before I get started, right. So I looked at your movement competency. And then I look at some other markers that just kind of look at your overall global readiness, whether it's looking at your grip strength, whether it's looking at a time to breath hold, or if you have technology that can tell me about your resting heart rate, tell me about your ear, heart rate variability, all those things put into the soup, kind of give me a picture of where you're at, as well as their own self assessment. And they're not going to offer that information coming in the door, they're going to come in and then just assume they're going to do the workout and then all of a sudden, I put them through stuff. And you know, you normally hold your breath for about 25 seconds today was 14 seconds. What's up, while you know, I slept like crap, you know, I'm stressed out works been really brutal. And now you're starting to reframe Okay, well, this isn't the same organism that I wrote this program for, I might need to change what I'm doing here, I can't plant the same seeds the same way that I thought, and so I need to adapt that program to that individual. So you know, looking at those factors, if you have ability to look a little bit deeper, and that's, you know, things like an aura ring that looks at your sleep, or something that looks at your HRV like a Morpheus strap, or one of those types of things, it's going to those the accuracy of some of those things comes into question sometimes, but it's not gonna, if we're not really, if we're using it just for general awareness is to say, Wow, I never realized that, you know, whenever a couple drinks at night, my HRV crashes, maybe let me maybe not try to have that drink and see if that affects my workout the next day, or if I go to bed a half hour earlier, my workout, I'm a different person. My focus the next day at work is completely different. And again, it goes back to that that honesty and awareness piece of wow, I didn't realize these things that we're doing were either building or detract from my health.

Philip Pape 56:57

Yeah, I love that the not only the 23 hours being the focus, but building that awareness. I mean, it's great when you have a coach who can help you do that assessment before the workout. But even collecting the data, like you said, looking at the trend, I actually have an aura ring myself. So what you mean, what do you just like? Well, what's happening? Are you wait too late? Or, you know, like you said, you had a few drinks, something like that. All right. Any anything else you want to share? Eric?

Eric D'Agati 57:22

Go all day.

Philip Pape 57:25

Day, I got one quick question, what's your favorite movement, if you had to choose just one lift,

Eric D'Agati 57:30

just one lift? That's tough. If I had to, it's gonna be kind of a three way tie of if I had to go either some variation of a deadlift, right, whether it's single leg is probably the one I program a lot more than just a bilateral deadlift. But if I'm going for the masses, I would say something like that left, and then push up would be close tie with that, because there's so much that can get involved if you do a really good quality push up. And then not far behind would be some level some type of carry would be in there as well. Because I'm looking for stuff. They're gonna check a lot of boxes at once. So if I'm on your own, give me one I got to pick pick one that's going to cover a lot of ground. So I would I would probably go one A, B and C with those three.

Philip Pape 58:23

Okay, no, and those are all unique. You know, I wouldn't have guessed right. I would have thought you know, maybe a traditional big lift or something like that. So, single leg deadlifts, you've inspired me to do more unilateral movements and isometrics now, and then you said push ups and carry so carries like farmer carries. We're saying

Eric D'Agati 58:38

right there you can do overhead parry farmers carry rack position carry unilateral bilateral, six position carry, there's, there's so many different variations, but carries are going to get a lot of good things going in terms of posture, body awareness, grip strength, just general you know, you're getting core in there, you're getting a ton of stuff going in there that you would never realize until you've actually done a carry and really in realize how smoked you can be afterwards.

Philip Pape 59:07

Like, all right, well, this has been a lot of fun. I do have one more question Where can the listeners find you learn more about your work?

Eric D'Agati 59:14

Okay, easiest place is the hub is just my website. It's just my name Eric D’Agati ericdagati.com. And on there, I have, you know, links to all those projects that I'm working on. As well as an “Ask Eric” button on there where you can just put in a question and it goes right to my emails. And so you know, platforms like this, we don't get a chance to interact with people. So someone may hear this and say, Hey, I heard you talking about, you know, carries, you know, where should I start with that? Or how do I pick my weight? Or how long do I carry, you know, those kinds of things, send those to me. And then as well as on my media page. I have all previous podcasts appearances, all my social media links. I try to do my best. It's tough to keep up but I try to do at least one or two posts a day with just some informational stuff to kind of pay it forward. We'll do clips from The podcasts that we put up. So those are great ways to keep in touch and

Philip Pape 1:00:04

follow me. And that's the principles of performance podcast. Right? So

Eric D'Agati 1:00:08

it was a performance podcast. Yes, sir. Okay,

Philip Pape 1:00:10

I think I missed that in the intro.

Eric D'Agati 1:00:12

That's that's the; we're on YouTube, and then all the different podcast platforms,

Philip Pape 1:00:16

make sure to download that. And I'm gonna include all those links in the show notes. And Eric, thanks again for coming on the show. It was a lot of fun talking to you.

Eric D'Agati 1:00:23

Awesome. Greatly appreciate it.

Philip Pape 1:00:27

Philip Pape 9/20/22 Philip Pape 9/20/22

Ep 26: Sustainable Fitness, Physiology, Fat Loss, and Running at Any Age with Louise Valentine

Today I am joined by Louise Valentine to talk about how to achieve sustainable fitness goals by doing less rather than more, how to work WITH our physiology and not against it, how to optimize health for women 35 and older, and actionable tips you can start applying right away to unlock your best health despite age, a busy life, or obstacles.

Today I am joined by Louise Valentine to talk about how to achieve sustainable fitness goals by doing less rather than more, how to work WITH our physiology and not against it, how to optimize health for women 35 and older, and actionable tips you can start applying right away to unlock your best health despite age, a busy life, or obstacles.

Louise is a Physiologist, best-selling author, avid runner, and military spouse. She was named #1 Health Specialist in the U.S., has worked for the NFL, and published research on how to solve the root cause of health and fitness problems.

She is now CEO of BreakingThroughWellness.com, where she offers one-on-one coaching, courses, and the groundbreaking Badass Breakthrough Academy for women runners and fitness lovers age 35 and beyond.

Just some of the topics discussed in this episode:

Overcoming health diagnoses at any age
The root cause of health and fitness problems
Doing less, not more, for sustainable success
Strategies for sleep, working from home, carbs, and more
Working with our physiology
Pitfalls to avoid when improving health and fitness
Considerations for women over 35 when it comes to health and fitness
Running for sport and for health: myth vs. reality when it comes to fat loss and body composition

RELATED LINKS

BreakingThroughWellness.com - Louise offers 1:1 coaching, courses, and the groundbreaking Badass Breakthrough Academy for women runners and fitness lovers age 35 and beyond
Breaking Through Wellness on Facebook
Louise (breakingthroughwellness) on Instagram
Louise on LinkedIn

👉 If you have any questions, just click here.

👨‍💻 HOSTED BY

Philip Pape of Wits & Weights (Instagram 👉 @witsandweights)

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Transcript

Philip Pape: 0:08

Welcome to the Wits & Weights podcast for busy professionals who want to get strong and healthy with strength training and sustainable diet. I'm your host, Philip pape, and in each episode will examine strategies to help you achieve physical self mastery through a healthy skepticism of the fitness industry, and a commitment to consistent lifting and nutrition. Welcome to another episode of Wits & Weights. Today, I'm honored to be joined by Louise Valentine to talk about how to achieve sustainable fitness goals by doing less rather than more how to work with our physiology and not against it, how to optimize health for women 35 and older and actionable tips, you can start applying right away to unlock your best health despite age, a busy life or obstacles. Louise is a physiologist, Best Selling Author, avid runner and military spouse. She was named number one health specialist in the US has worked for the NFL, and published research on how to solve the root cause of health and fitness problems. She is now CEO of breaking through wellness.com where she offers one on one coaching courses and the groundbreaking badass Breakthrough Academy for women runners and fitness lovers aged 35 and beyond. Louise, thanks for joining me on the show.

Louise Valentine: 1:25

Thank you so much for having me. I'm excited to be here.

Philip Pape: 1:27

Yeah. So am I. So to start off, can you just tell us a little bit about your background as it relates to your diagnosis, your health diagnoses, and then what you call turning breakdowns into breakthroughs?

Louise Valentine: 1:39

Yeah, you know, at a young age I was I got this message that I wasn't built to be a runner, I had such a strong genetic history of all these health diagnoses, that that would ultimately be my faith, my fate. And, you know, this motivated very young age, I was really interested in health and fitness, I got multiple degrees and an exercise science physiology. And I wanted to arm myself with these tools and strategies, so that that wouldn't be the case that I would be healthy and resilient. And, and I had this motivation I like I tell the story of turning the treadmill up to like a 10% grade and, you know, power walking in the sixth grade thing, that won't be my story. But, you know, ultimately, I did end up getting some health diagnoses, I did struggle with compromised immune system, infertility, hormonal issues, and ultimately did get diagnoses of both osteoporosis and a stomach pre cancer in my 30s, so I did have those moments where even having knowledge and, and tools and degrees I, I still felt like it was a breakdown moment. And I stand here as living proof, though, that despite what doctors say, they still told me it was impossible to reverse things. Despite what I was told in my youth that I was able to turn those breakdowns into breakthroughs and reverse what I was told would be chronic conditions.

Philip Pape: 3:05

So I mean, in your 30s, you got all of these these. There's bad news, I guess, on you know, surprise at that age, especially things like osteoporosis. You know, how did it make you feel? I mean, what, where did it take you at that point?

Louise Valentine: 3:18

Yeah, it was incredible darkness. You know, I kind of describe to those that I work with now that, you know, can shift our perspective that health and performance is fluid, it's always dynamic, it's going to have moments that are hard. It's just knowing what to do, and what to say to ourselves when it gets hard that matters. So now that I've been there, in those dark moments, I do have a lot of different tools and strategies to help others work through these moments. But it, it's okay to sit there for a moment and just kind of to feel it though. And it is ugly, and to be mad and frustrated and let that ugly out too.

Philip Pape: 3:55

So it was your crucible moment. I mean, it sounds like are you thankful that that happened? In hindsight? Yeah.

Louise Valentine: 4:01

Oh, yeah. And, you know, even say, like the struggles of being a military spouse, the struggles in my health challenge, I believe I was given them for a purpose, so that I would see how strong you can be, despite these crazy obstacles so that I can, my struggle can be someone's inspiration, ultimately,

Philip Pape: 4:19

that's amazing. And I'm assuming this, this led to a lot of the things that you accomplished later on. And we talked about in the intro. One of those is publishing research. We're big into science and talking about evidence on this podcast, and you talk about solving the root cause of health and fitness problems. So can you just share, expound on that a bit on the research and what you discovered?

Louise Valentine: 4:40

Yeah, so I did look at a lot of things like childhood obesity, looking at women's health issues in my master's program set up and things like that and our health and longevity but ultimately, my research fellowship was with the US Army. So I was able to look at health outcomes. All the way from chronic disease to mental health, look at the impact of physical activity, sleep nutrition, on our well being on our health, and the military is always a wonderful population to study because their circumstances are fairly controlled, they do a lot of the same exercises, they may be in the same type of an environment in the field, they might be getting the same meals in their prep prepackaged meals. So a lot of times we learn a lot about the human body and human performance by studying the military.

Philip Pape: 5:31

Yeah, that makes sense. I mean, the validity study is often dependent on the sample and who's involved and how consistent it is. But so I want to dig a little deeper on that. The root cause, like I want to know the secret, right? What is the root cause of health and fitness? So I'm just curious.

Louise Valentine: 5:46

Yeah, so it was looking more so at the fact that it is always individual, we would look at the different troops and different troops would have different problems, like for some obesity was their challenge. For some it was mental health outcomes. For others, it was injury. So yeah, we looked at different impacts of in the individual troops, that each one would have a different health outcome that was their, you know, problem point. So it was then looking at targeted interventions for those specific priority issues. Because you can sit there going to try and have programs for everything. But it's really defining that number one trouble point and starting there, and aligning those resources accordingly. So rather than trying to do everything at once, which I see a lot with those that I work with, and their health and fitness, it's having that okay, what is your priority goal? And how can we be most effective in moving the needle to achieve that goal? Not everything all at once?

Philip Pape: 6:50

Yeah, no, I love that approach. And I know you're a one on one coach, just like I am, and you probably every single client that comes in as their unique big rock or big priority that they struggle with. And the next client is perfectly skillful in that area and has something else right? Yeah. So did you did you find common themes like things like biofeedback, specific types of biofeedback, that you could bucket eyes or categorize across? Anybody?

Louise Valentine: 7:17

Well, I think we looked at like the foundation of health, if you don't have health, you will not perform. So looking at things like mental health, and then also sleep. So having like that absolute foundation, without certain things, you will not be able to improve your fitness, you will not be energized to perform at your best, whether it's your career, whether it's the military. So what is the Health Foundation? And do you have it in place?

Philip Pape: 7:44

Okay, sleep, you hit a trigger with me that Sleep, sleep is a challenge for a lot of people. I agree, whether it's quantity quality. And I know a lot of my listeners are busy professionals, they have families, they have career obligations. And this idea of I know you mentioned doing less, doing less, not more, I think resonates with people were overwhelmed. And things like sleep come into the equation. So tell me a little bit about that concept of less versus more, and how it plays into sustainable success.

Louise Valentine: 8:15

Yeah, I think it's really important to look at the your priority goals and your health and fitness, and then start to inventory, the different things that you're doing. And we it's so easy with the noise out there to want to buy like the greatest supplement solution, I see that you know, all the time. And it's almost like a backpack, your game plan. Your game plan is a backpack, and you're just stuffing so many things. And it's try and gain the edge, losing the sight of the things that could actually move the needle and just like taking that focused action. And you'd be leaps and bounds ahead. So I'll use the example of I train a lot of runners. And something I might see with a busy mom who's trying to run her best. She has career goals, she's got kids in soccer, she's running around like a crazy person. So with that stress, she thinks, Okay, yoga is good for runners. So I'm going to make sure that I do yoga on and I'm going to add that into marathon training on top of this crazy season of life. And so I'll stop and I'll say, Okay, so are you driving to your yoga class? Yes, she's driving to it. It's an hour. Well, why are you doing yoga? While I'm doing yoga? Because I have, you know, this, this injury, I just want to make sure I just want to prevent injury and my running to be like, what if I told you, unless you're using that yoga for like mental health and you absolutely love it, we could give you like two targeted strength exercises that you could do at home at home would be more effective. And target your problem area. And we can maybe remove yoga until after marathon training because it takes so much time and energy. Yeah.

Philip Pape: 9:49

Yeah, exactly. Yeah, no, that's so true. With with prioritization, you see that all the time. You mentioned supplements, right? The pyramid of nutrition where People just need to focus maybe on protein, and they get in the weeds with, you know, whatever it might be clean eating or something else. So, regarding sleep, so if we dig in a little bit more about sleep, how big of a problem is that for people? How? Or how many people? Does that affect that you encounter? And what would you say are some effective strategies for that?

Louise Valentine: 10:22

Yeah, I'll see a lot of women that struggle a lot with sleep. And even like I had, I remember, I had a male triathlete who was struggling with it as well. There's different strategies. And next door, I actually pull it for some of the research with the US military, this concept of sleep banking. So if they have an event coming up the US military, they will add just a little bit more sleep to encourage the soldier or in this specific study, getting extra hours of sleep. And if you do that, just a few say it's like 10 or 10 minutes asleep, 10 minutes asleep, five days a week leading up to the event, you're still banking sleep prior to that event. So what I like to do is I like to encourage those that I work with to look to these events that they have, is it a high stress work week? Can we sleep bank? Is it a an event, like a marathon where you know, you're gonna get up at 3am to make a bus to get to the start line by five? Let's sleep bank. And then of course, looking at different things that influenced sleep like caffeine. Cutting caffeine off is huge at like noon. Can we just cut it off? Dude, maybe

Philip Pape: 11:29

long Half Life Care? Yeah. Yeah, I like that idea of sleep banking. And that's, that's adding 10 minutes each day leading up to the event. Yeah. And

Louise Valentine: 11:36

if they have more time, of course, let's do 20 minutes. But typically, we're hitting that like eight to nine hour optimal sleep range. For some ultra endurance athletes, we're looking at 10 hours is recommendations. But if we dropped below six, that's the cut point where you're seeing compromised immunity. Five times more likely to get injury, I think is a statistic there. It's just insane what that does to our physiology.

Philip Pape: 12:02

So the sleep bank is kind of like carb loading, which these athletes I imagine have to do as well. So So you're saying get more Tom Brady level of sleep? And so yeah, three shift worker level of sleep. So I guess, related to that, then so we talked about people working from home, talking about sleep. People are sitting around all day two, like I've heard the phrase sitting is the new smoking, and you're working all these hours. I mean, I'm working from home, we get burned out by stress, we have a tendency to even do more in that case, because we're not taking the chance to get in a car and go to our workplace. Do you have any actionable tips for those challenges?

Louise Valentine: 12:41

Yeah, I mean, I think the one of the best things we can do is like sit on a ball, that will just activate our core all day. And I'll tell you, I've even seen that the difference in my own core from when we moved here to Delaware, I would sit on the couch and work. So it was so comfortable at this big beautiful window, I could look out at us like I love it here, while I stopped sitting on my ball chair. And I saw fat accumulate on my stomach. And I was like, well, that's okay, that's just me. But if we're looking at bigger pictures, like having this ball works your core but if you don't like that idea, a sit stand desk alternate between the two. And I think the biggest game changer that I've seen in the research is just moving at least two minutes after you eat, whether it's a snack, whether it's a meal.

Philip Pape: 13:25

I like that. Okay, and you're on the ball right now. What about standing all day, all day, because I have a treadmill desk and I tend to not sit is that a problem. So the

Louise Valentine: 13:37

if you don't have back issues as as a byproduct of that. I do see a lot of people that stand too much. And for example, my husband is an ultra runner, and he was standing because he's like, Yes, I'm tough. I'm gonna stand all day. And he ended up having some back pain. So I wanted to try alternating between the two. And I think you'll be you'll be much better off. So it's

Philip Pape: 13:58

a good tip. All right, listen to that alternate get a ball and, and you'll be better off. So this is this is working with your body working with your physiology and how we are designed and our biomechanics. And you mentioned that right working within your physiology. So what do you mean by that? Exactly? What are some tips to do that?

Louise Valentine: 14:18

You know, there are just over the years, so many simple ways to work with our body and not against it. And I have some, you know, different strategies and hacks that I teach those that I work with, but sometimes it's, it seems so simple. And so it can create so much ease in our life and body from the state of cortisol Go, go go go, which is like fat storage, it's almost impossible sometimes to build muscle to lose body fat. And when we're just trying so hard, you know, especially working with runners and those who are really into health and fitness. Sometimes we really have to just have those moments where we can chill out. So recognizing the state of stress and then having the stress energies in place, whether it is sleep, whether you're struggling with just anxiety in these stressful moments and really high stress job. So one example strategy that I use is just to call it shifting your mind. And you just take one deep breath, think of one thing you're grateful for. And then think of how you want to show up in the world today. So it's I am, and you think, for a lot of times, I'll start my day like that. And I'll just say, I am joy filled as I make breakfast for my kids. And then I go, and I'm, I am that person, right? I just step into that, that joy, and I think about what I'm grateful for. And it's amazing what gratitude can do in terms of hormones, and just shifting that high stress state. So I just have individuals work with that strategy, just one breath. You don't have to do some crazy long meditation, just one breath. If you feel like things are, you know, the trains going off the tracks at work? One breath, think of one thing you're grateful for? shift yourself?

Philip Pape: 16:00

Yeah, like that a lot pot positive visualization. But, you know, people will listen to me. No, I'm very direct. I'm not, I'm not into a lot of spiritual things. But I do appreciate the link between the mind and body and what you're talking about. If I were to go to a speech, you know, in front of a big audience, for example, thinking that it's going to go well seems to relieve the stress and getting prepared for the moment. So what you're saying makes a lot of sense. When do you do you advise people journal? Or how would people identify these moments? Because I could see some people doing this just all day, because it's stress is always there.

Louise Valentine: 16:33

Yeah, I think that, you know, I say what we do what we say to ourselves when it gets hard matters. And this exercise if of defining what your heart is, what is hard in your life right now? Is it a relationship struggle? Is it you lost? Your job is, you know, during the pandemic, it was the pandemic stress of the pandemic, the unknown? Is it a health challenge? Is it you're struggling with weight gain? And you don't know why, you know, it's just it's so individual, but what is your heart and starting to identify, like, what's triggering it in?

Philip Pape: 17:06

Got it? Yeah. And looking back in your week, perhaps and say, this was the thing that that came up the most of cause the stress and maybe I should focus on some of these, these practices for myself.

Louise Valentine: 17:18

It really shifts where we start to intervene in our health and fitness, right? A lot of times we're like, okay, supplements, we're looking at the latest and greatest fitness, when if we just kind of went upstream a little bit and looked at like stress, we could simplify things just a little bit.

Philip Pape: 17:34

But Louise, isn't there a supplement you can take for stress? Oh, there's like 50 of them? I'm sure they're the biggest pain points of the most supplements? For sure. Yeah. All right. So I guess that leads to a corollary to that, which is people do try and maybe do too much, or focus on the wrong things, and fall into different pitfalls, different traps along the way. We already covered some of them, like taking on too much putting you're filling up your backpack with things that don't matter. So what are some of the mistakes you've seen clients make? And I'm really intrigued to know about some of the like professional athletes you've worked with? Maybe the NFL really interested in hearing about that? Yeah, so

Louise Valentine: 18:13

they think they're the worst culprits of doing everything they possibly can to get that cutting edge. So I think that's where I started to realize that there was, there's so many different solutions for everything. And I would have athletes that were, you know, sleep chambers, they were getting cryotherapy, they'd have personal stretch person, I would work with them for massage therapy. They had performance coaches and nutritionists. And it was just so much and so I take a step back and kind of observe and see. Okay, so what are they doing? And what is the science say? And so it was really interesting to start to see like, okay, so what are the minimum? What is the minimum effort needed to achieve that maximum results? And that's kind of the lens that I try and encourage those that I work with to start to think about. You know, for example, if you're looking for energy boosts of cryotherapy, but did you know that you can just spray cold water on your forehead and chest in your shower, to get that same mitochondrial die off, that you're looking for in cryotherapy, that energy boosts it start starting to look at some of these things we're investing in and spending a lot of time on. It's really interesting. There's a lot of different ways, like I said that you can just work with the physiology of your body once we understand what it is.

Philip Pape: 19:30

Yeah, and I think that awareness is maybe a big first step a lot of people have taken yet, before you even get into application and what you what you hit on there as the minimum minimum effective dose. I don't know if it's a phrase that, again, consistent with the theme earlier you mentioned of priorities of you've got all these things, but nine out of 10 of them aren't going to get you very far. So you focus on the 10th or vice versa.

Louise Valentine: 19:56

I could use an example to have an NFL player that came to me He was looking for just general overall health, he was taking hard hits on the field. And we started him on bone broth, just a great Whole Foods source of collagen, all sorts of nutrition and amino acids. So then he keeps coming to me with all these different things. Like my friend says, I should take this, my friends that I should take this, is this good? Should I take this? So he want one of them was a collagen powder. So I explained to him the benefits of collagen are in this whole food source of bone broth that you're already taking daily on top of an adequate protein diet. Do I think this supplement that your friend thinks is great, is necessary? No. So it's just like the education piece of again, we're just we're duplicating effort in so

Philip Pape: 20:42

many ways. Yeah, I just listened to a podcast, they talked about some supplement that shuttles more carbs to your muscles or something. And, and it was like a point 000 1% increase, versus just taking, you know, eating enough carbs? Gosh, I know, I know. You hear that stuff all the time. Yeah. So I'm sure you have a lot of other interesting stories regarding regarding athletes would What did you do with the NFL population. So I

Louise Valentine: 21:09

was primarily sports, medical massage therapy. This was years ago, I was working on my Strength and Conditioning Specialist Certification at the time, I worked with a Sports Med staff on that on the team with the sportsman docks, and in the training room with their strength and conditioning staff. So it was more of looking at the the overall total athlete health and how and I was specifically more on like the injury treatment and prevention side.

Philip Pape: 21:33

Okay. And now I would say you probably work a lot with women, right? Women, you said particularly 35, and over wiser women 35. And over, and they have to consider their health and fitness. And there's some unique considerations for them. So maybe let's let's dig into a little bit on that.

Louise Valentine: 21:51

Yeah, this need for vibrant health and health, energy and Hormonal Health in particular, a lot of us are, you know, maybe in our 20s, we could skimp on sleep, maybe in our 20s we could run super hard marathon training plan, and we didn't feel repercussions. But now we have to be really strategic about what we're eating, when we're eating it, ensuring our Hormonal Health is in place. First and foremost, we're not draining it, and just ensuring that we do we have to be more strategic and women over 35, our homeruns really start to shift our body takes longer to recover. And, and there's a lot of different things we need to do.

Philip Pape: 22:33

Yeah, and I was gonna, I was gonna ask exactly why so people so people understand why these things happen. And at what age is right, because when you say 35 To me, that's still a pre still menopausal is not postmenopausal yet, which then other things occur. Is it? Is it primarily down to hormones and other specifics about that people should be aware of?

Louise Valentine: 22:52

Yeah, I think the biggest one, and the misunderstanding that I've seen with the latest research coming out is just around carbs, and how essential they are for female Hormonal Health. And then not training fasted. We do need carbs, but we have to be strategic with them. Because yes, our body does not process them as easily, but just eating them around breakfast, around training around lunch is really key times when we actually need those carbs to build hormones. And without it, we start to cortisol, we build cortisol, instead, we store fat, and it's super frustrating. You could eat barely nothing, and you're still probably going to gain belly fat. It's just insane what it does to the hormones. So we need to ensure that that foundation is in place and not training fasted, because again, it's going to do the same thing. Cortisol is just going to spike and it steals from the hormones that oh, hey, by the way, we're losing as a byproduct of perimenopause, too. So yeah, that

Philip Pape: 23:49

those are all great insights. I want to dig in on some of those because they are very interesting one one having to do with mealtime and carbs. And the other with cortisol. So maybe started with cortisol. We know there's a timing window between cortisol and melatonin and serotonin, all these things, maybe just simplify, break it down and and help us understand why carbs are important in terms of fasted training, and cortisol.

Louise Valentine: 24:13

Yeah, because when we're when we go into a training session, fasted, especially in the morning there, our cortisol is going to spike. And in order for our body to make that cortisol, my understanding is that it's going to steal from our you know, our progesterone and our estrogens. And that's those, we actually need to have energy and vibrant wellbeing. And we need those to recover and just, you know, most of our major energy cycles and ability to to achieve our health and fitness and performance goals, we need our hormones. So with that, we definitely want to avoid the faster training and that's a really hard shift for a lot of women that I work with because there's a lot of that fasting is is the answer. And in certain circumstances, it is like when I had my son pre cancer, you better bet I fasted because I was going to starve those cancer cells, that's part of changing, shifting that terrain in my body to be anti cancer. So there was a time and a place for it. For those that have like, neuro neurological issues, yes, fasting has a place. Maybe every once in a while you do something like a, you have a favorite detox with your functional medicine doctor, okay, there might be a place for it. But to go into your training facet, every single day, I try to like meet people where they're at. But once they change this, are they even just getting like aminos, or a little bit of applesauce, half a banana, it doesn't have to be anything big. Get something into your body shift that biochemical pathway from that state of stress to one that can Hey, support your health and performance is a game changer.

Philip Pape: 25:53

I really liked that because we talk a lot about blood, blood glucose control, blood sugar control, and just glycolytic energy from carbs. And you're touching on the hormonal implication and the stressor related to cortisol and carbs. And it sounds like it's mainly for morning training. Because if you're training later in the day, you've probably eaten something. Before that point. Would you say that a large, fairly high carb dinner somewhat compensates for that, even if you didn't eat in the morning or not?

Louise Valentine: 26:21

I wouldn't know. And especially for women, too, I mean, just getting a source of protein in the evening to enhance that repair and recovery. Sometimes it's very beneficial, depending on their training volume. If they're a marathon runner, and they're going to a long run, absolutely get some great nutrient dense carbs, quality of your carbs matters. But otherwise, I tend to encourage just the slightly, typically based on the average person's dinner, which is a lot of like pasta, it's just looking at adding those veggies, adding some really great sources of protein and fat. And yes, you can have some carbs, but it's just not the heart of your beer, your meal at that point.

Philip Pape: 27:02

Sure. Okay. And then and then the banana in the morning or something. I'm all for that I do a banana on protein shake before my training in the morning as well, I get it. Hey, guys, I just wanted to thank you for listening to the podcast. If you find it valuable, You'd be doing me a huge favor by sharing it on social media. Just take a screenshot, share to your Instagram story, or Facebook, please tag me so I can personally thank you. And we can talk about what you found helpful, and how I can improve again, and incredible. Thank you for supporting the podcast and enjoy the rest of the episode. And then what was the other thing that the timing throughout the day for carbs? You touched on that a little bit earlier? Can you go into that? Yeah, so

Louise Valentine: 27:44

it having good carbs post workout for women who are 35. And over looking at like a one to one or two to one ratio, carbs to protein is great three to one starts to get a little tricky. We see some insulin impact there some energy that is going to possibly crash based on a really high carb meal because, you know, looking at that athlete or that fitness lovers, you know intra and pre workout meals, we might want to see up to 40 grams of carbs in that post workout meal, or I'm sorry, 40 grams of protein. So that protein is the heart of that meal. pairing it with with your carbs, of course. So like I said it's going to be their two to one or one to one ratio. Yeah. Yeah. Three to one is it gets hard if maybe you also marathoner.

Philip Pape: 28:33

Yeah. To our training sessions, CrossFit or something maybe. Yeah, cool, though, I could dig into this stuff all day. I tend to get in the weeds on this. But it's very interesting. I like I like for people to hear these things. Because I think there's a lot of misinformation and a lot of conventional wisdom around what and when you should eat right?

Louise Valentine: 28:52

Yeah. And it's so individual. Let me just say that. I had did like a whole training module and my bad aspects Breakthrough Academy on like, how we like what are your health goals? Do you have health challenges? What's your energy? Like? Do you have underlying conditions do you have how long you're training for, you know, what type of training are you doing? It all matters? So just using that lens and those blinders, put the blinders on listeners where you can and focus on you your goals and what your body's needs.

Philip Pape: 29:23

Yes, for sure. And feel free to experiment, right? Nothing's set in stone. Try something for a week, try something you know, for a few weeks and switch it up. Very cool. So, so we talked about women, that one other thing comes to mind was thinking of a client who is post menopause and dealing with the weight gain that sometimes comes from that just just indiscriminant quote, unquote, unexplainable weight gain, right? We all think we know what the science says about why you gain and lose weight. But then there's all these other factors that women face with hormones, and then it seems to present as visceral or abdomen abdominal fat as well. What what do we know? about that, and is there anything we can? What do we have to change at that point? To deal with that?

Louise Valentine: 30:04

Yeah, yeah. So that would definitely I'd be looking to see like carbohydrate timing, I'd be looking to ensure she's getting enough protein, I would look to alcohol use, just because alcohol could, really seems to push out that abdominal fat. And different strategies if you are because of course, I enjoy alcohol. So I just encourage the different hacks to help to, like prevent that super acidic shift in your body. And then I would also look to, if she was if she had like a good quality multivitamin, because believe it or not, for there's a couple of foundational supplements that I find are just game changers for, especially this age group of women, myself included, is just a really high quality multivitamin. And the reason why being that when we have that blanket of really high quality nutrition, it can cover the gaps, right, potentially, we don't have to worry about all the complicated lab testing, of course, that's beneficial, too. But if we don't have access to that, sometimes just you know, making sure you're getting really great methylated b 12, making sure you have a really high quality magnesium, you're getting enough vitamin D, and then the other one isn't high quality omega. And those two, you'd be amazed. I've had menopausal women that have said that stubborn five pounds, and they're just like, oh my gosh, it's gone. And I'm like, Oh,

Philip Pape: 31:31

we changed a couple of things. fish oil pills. Or the magnesium. You're right. It's just like something is deficient.

Louise Valentine: 31:38

That biological pathway to burn that fat and to see the gains of your fitness. It just couldn't run. It just needed some sort of precursor, which we just, we don't know what it was. But maybe it was magnesium. Maybe it was vitamin D.

Philip Pape: 31:52

Yeah, I like that thought of kind of, if you think of all your vitamins, filling up little buckets, and then a few of them are empty, and you're just kind of passing water over the entire thing and hoping to fill up the right buckets. Yeah. So what was I going to mention about magnesium, magnesium, fish oil, and multivitamins, what you mentioned? What about and then you said v 12? Creatine? What do you think of creatine?

Louise Valentine: 32:17

So honestly, it's one of the best studied supplements of all time. And I've personally used it. I, if an individual wants to try it, there's a time and a place sometimes. I mean, is one of them. That is the most research back. So from like a sports scientist perspective. Yeah, it's cool if you want to try

Philip Pape: 32:39

it for performance. Okay, so sweet. I want to get into a little bit more about body composition, right? Because we had a little conversation by email about running, and you're big into running, I want to get into that topic with you. I used to love running and kind of stopped altogether. At some point. Don't do it much anymore. But I get why a lot of people love doing it, both for enjoyment and for competition reasons. And I even just worked with a person training for a half marathon. So some people would say then that, you know, I'm the I'm against cardio, right? I'm against cardio, because we focus a lot on strength lifting muscle mass. And there's the whole interference effect with cardio. But I don't really I think it's a little bit overblown. I think if you enjoy it and keep the volume, reasonable, you can make it all work. But I want to hear your take on that. Because I know you're a competitive runner. And you know, you did that after the health diagnoses. I know you work with others and empower them to do that. So tell me about your love for running. Tell me about the benefits everything about running.

Louise Valentine: 33:42

So you definitely hit a nail on the head though running, especially this women over 35 population. My goodness, it is the one of the worst forms of exercises for our bodies. You say? No, it really is. And the reason why is because it is stress. Stress is stress, whether it's fear, whether it's exercise, the good stress or bad stress of you know, high stress work week life, but there is a stress tipping point. And when we are go go go all the time. And we add just six days of running on top of it. It is so much for our body. And you know, I saw a lot of health consequences from you know, the fact Yes, I had underlying conditions, but then I was running so much too. So the more I dug into it, the more I shifted to the simple, less is more type of training. It has it was a big game changer for my health for my hormones, like everything started to reverse and and so it is a little hard for those who want to train very religiously six days a week. But if we add just a little bit of strength training in there, they're injury free, they're energized. They have muscles that they love. And you know what, they're stronger runners and they're not tired all the time. And it's just, there is a place there's a place for run thing of course, I love it. But sometimes for my body I know ultra marathons. Not so great anymore. I tend to shy away from the marathon even anymore, maybe one a year. And, and for other women, it's just sort of looking at their physiology, where are they at in their stress in their life and their age two.

Philip Pape: 35:19

So tell us, tell us about that experience with a woman who's been into running runs every day. And you're so you're so correct, I think it might have started in the 70s. If you look at the history of exercise, and running, all of a sudden, there was one pivotal book, I don't remember the title, the running revolution or something like that. And it set off everything that along with the Nautilus machines that you see a benefit. For the modern gym in the modern culture, somebody who runs a lot, and then you get them to change their mindset, start incorporating lifting, what does that evolution look like for a lot of women,

Louise Valentine: 35:55

it's sometimes a little challenging, I find there's a lot of fear around strength training, just not knowing. And so that's where we work. And we keep it simple. It's amazing how women can do dynamic lifting. And by that, I mean, you can take away from off the floor, kick it up over your shoulder and over your head and you feel powerful, you see incredible results, you have an energy after doing it. And you're not going to break your back, you're not going to get super big muscles. Oh, by the way, your running is going to get stronger. And you're going to see like, great physique changes. So sometimes it takes time. But you know what, I swear, it's just only a few weeks. For most of them, they they're like my husband's commenting about my muscles. And I'm like, they can see the changes in my body and my clothes are fitting great. And oh my gosh, energy when I'm training and, you know, we switch up the workouts, they might have been running, like slow and steady for six days a week. And we'll just add in a little bit of speed work to get that like awesome, like hit effect. It's like you don't have to go to the hit class. You don't have to overdo it. But let's just add in like 32nd intervals. And at the end of your run, oh, wait, by the way, you feel like you're in college again, running track. It's just the most amazing empowered feeling. And women at any age can do it.

Philip Pape: 37:09

Yeah, yeah, that's, that's incredible that and within a few weeks, they start to notice do some of them, then they want to branch off and really get into it, you know, with, I don't know, powerlifting or barbell work or any of that kind of you

Louise Valentine: 37:22

know, so I would just say that they're they're just more open to things like a clean and press. For some of them. I haven't seen, I haven't seen anyone turned to powerlifting. But more so just realizing the value of how great lifting makes them feel, but also to injury prevention. Doing some targeted running specific exercises are amazing in just not having like that sciatica type pain, your hips aren't always out of alignment, you don't have low back pain, you're over your calf isn't always getting tight, like all of these things start to shift towards Oh, I don't have the aches and pains I have more energy. It's like a very beautiful place to be.

Philip Pape: 38:01

Yeah, that is so true. Even if you're if you're listening, and you're even if you're 6065 years old and never trained before, and I've seen it happen, you start training, all of a sudden, the pain starts to go away, right? I have back pain when I started deadlifting or any any hip hinge movements and really same thing, knee pain start squatting is incredible. So what about when we talk about body composition, I'm sure a lot of your clients do have a fat loss goal, right? They're trying to actually go into a cut or fat loss phase at some point, which is going to require caloric restriction. Now you're gonna have other stressors on the body. So where does running fit in there, if it does at all? And I asked that, because a lot of people think or used to think running is the way you burn more calories. And that's how I'm going to accelerate my diet. let's dispel that myth, please.

Louise Valentine: 38:46

Yes. So that's the thing, I'll be looking at an individual's, you know, running agenda. And then looking at the fact like, oh, they will do want to also lose weight. So for an individual, I might discourage the marathon and say, Okay, let's work with the half the half marathon seems to be a sweet spot where we can still those longer runs that you enjoy. But if you really want to target it, weight loss phase, I discourage it typically in marathon training, because again, I don't want you losing bone mass, I don't want you burning out. I don't want you feeling like junk every time you go out to run. And that is the reality of weight loss and marathon training for most. Now, if you're morbidly obese, and you're starting a marathon training cycle, it might be a sweet spot, right? You might see weight loss, you're gonna be in a killer sport from it, right? So context matters. But looking at more of those shorter races, maybe off cycling from the half marathon and doing the 5k. Now that's a place where we can lose that you can maintain your running value, you'll get faster for your next marathon, and maybe it's three or four months, or a year kind of off cycle. But hey, that's great for injury prevention, and you look great at the end, and you're faster, you know,

Philip Pape: 40:00

Yeah, so it's almost like an offseason on the running to be on Season on the fat loss and then cycled through the other way. Yeah,

Louise Valentine: 40:06

yes. Yeah. Probably. Yeah. Yeah, just setting expectations otherwise, that this might be challenging. And we're not going to pull calories from around your training. That's the number one mistake I see. I think is like, I'm just not gonna eat as much after a run. Like, no, let's maybe pull from dinner. Which is really hard for most because we want to eat a dinner.

Philip Pape: 40:26

Yeah, for sure. So with the running, do you are your are you actually helping competitive runners prepare for their events, then? Is that a big part of what you do?

Louise Valentine: 40:37

So I wouldn't say that I work with a lot of like, super competitive like sponsored runners. I've like I've had an ultra runner who won 100 mile race, she was awesome. We worked a lot on like, mindset type stuff. Being that I can work on a lot of different aspects of health and fitness. I'm trying to think of I don't Well, I've had a more round mindset, honestly, for more of like, the the competitive side. Otherwise, it's it's pretty recreational. But yes, they have genders to Boston qualify, they have time goals, they might want to get a 127 they might want to get a, you know, 259 like this, you know, these obscure times that we all have runners absolutely have to achieve.

Philip Pape: 41:17

So yeah, I wouldn't know because I've never been competitive. But yes, I hear what you're saying. Let's take an everyday person, I guess who wants to just be competitive with themselves? Right? They want to get faster. And they're doing races fairly regularly, you know, a couple times a year, what's what's the the best tip you have for them in terms of, I don't know if it's the strength to weight ratio, or how would they get faster.

Louise Valentine: 41:41

I think the type of training rounds that you do are essential. But I see it overcomplicated. And from a physiological standpoint, you truly need your aerobic base, which are your easy runs, you need the net includes like your long run to so that's just going to keep that aerobic system going well recommend two speed type workouts, one might be more like a track based, you might do some 800, repeats, do whatever distance you love, maybe love for hundreds, maybe you love mile repeats, and then having what I call a tempo, which is actually a race pace. Most people don't call tempo race pace, but I love to help the runner achieve that feeling of like I have been here, I'd done that this is my race pace. I know what it feels like, I know what to expect. My body is so incredibly capable, I practice it every week of my training block. And that is a really great place from a physiological standpoint, and a mental

Philip Pape: 42:36

standpoint. Yeah, that that see, it's like the theory of specificity, right? Like, if you're gonna, if you're gonna go to a powerlifting meet, you got to practice the lifts. If you're gonna run, you're gonna practice at that pace. I mean, it makes sense intuitively, at least to me. Yeah. And then and then for lifting to support running. So let's say your primary goal is the running and the racing. What is the lifting look like for that type of person? I would definitely

Louise Valentine: 42:59

recommend at least two days per week. And I have a very specific like strength and conditioning type exercises that I recommend. One is a single sided kettlebell clean and press. I think that is one of the absolute best running exercises you can do. And that's because we never do anything when we're running on two feet is always single legged.

Philip Pape: 43:20

Yeah. So unilateral movements, is it a power cleaning press or full cleaning press? So I just kind of off

Louise Valentine: 43:25

from the floor? Yeah. Cleaner press fall. Yeah. That and just deadlifts. Anything working posterior chain, really strong glutes, because we're so quad dominant. So I see and tell

Philip Pape: 43:37

them tell the ladies, what's the best exercise for glutes.

Louise Valentine: 43:41

Honestly, I just want to make sure they're activated and firing in the first place. And so I have them just do like little Donkey Kicks when they're standing as their dynamic warm up day, just to like, know what that feels like to have a powerful kickback. But I mean, we might do like with a, for some very simple, just like a bridge with some weight in from off the floor. reading some habits, hip extension or kettlebell swings is a really great one. Yeah, it's great for power in running extension.

Philip Pape: 44:11

Yeah. And the kickbacks, I guess. Yeah, you're right. I mean, running is a power, sport and speed and power sports. So that's great. All right. Is there? Is there anything else you want to share?

Louise Valentine: 44:20

I don't think so. I just think that you know, if there are any listeners who are in that discouraging or dark place to know that, you know, you got this and there is always light, it's just having the strategies and the tools to know how to find it. And if you don't, that's where assembling your army of support is going to be your greatest resource, whether that's a coach, whether that's a loved one, whether that's health care providers, so get your army in place, and small steps. You'll get there

Philip Pape: 44:47

small steps and Louise can help you get there for sure. So Louise, remind us again where listeners can learn more about you and your work.

Louise Valentine: 44:55

Absolutely. So I have breaking through wellness.com It's your one stop shop. I have my blog. out there that talks everything about fighting disease, general physical activity running wellness, and I offer my badass Breakthrough Academy for women 35. And over, and I do a variety of coaching from youth athletes all the way through pro so you can find all events, resources, courses, and that badass Breakthrough Academy at breaking through wellness.com

Philip Pape: 45:23

breakthrough wellness.com. I'll include all those links and show notes for the listeners. And Louise. Thank you again for coming on the show. It was a pleasure talking with you.

Louise Valentine: 45:32

Thank you so much. It's great to be here.

Philip Pape: 45:36

Thank you so much for joining me today. Before you go, I do have a quick favor to ask. If you enjoy the podcast, just let me know by leaving a review in Apple podcasts. This will help others find the podcast in search results, which makes a huge difference. Thanks again for joining me, your host Philip Pape in this episode of Wits & Weights. I'll see you next time and stay strong.

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