Can You Eat "Clean" Without Food Guilt in an Ultra-Processed World? (Alana Bonnemann) | Ep 328

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Are you stuck in a cycle of guilt every time you eat something “off plan”? Do food rules make grocery shopping feel like a minefield? 

Alana Bonnemann, a naturopathic nutritionist and host of the Health After 30 podcast, joins me to talk about the rising culture of food fear and how to escape it. 

We unpack why our relationship with food often feels so complicated, the role of diet culture and childhood conditioning, and how to replace guilt with trust. Together, we explore what it actually means to “feel good” after eating, how to eat with intention (not obsession), and why a little cake won’t wreck your health goals.

Today, you’ll learn all about:

2:36 - Childhood food rules and guilt
4:16 - What eating without fear looks like
6:02 - Why body awareness matters
11:01 - Can healthy food taste good
14:31 - The truth about eating cake
20:13 - Diet culture vs true health
29:54 - How to know what feels good
41:05 - Change your default eating loop
47:32 - Outro

Episode resources:

• Health After 30 Podcast

• Website: alanabonnemann.com

• Instagram: @naturopath.alana 

• Youtube: @alanabonnemann 

Stop Feeling Guilty About Food and Start Trusting Your Body

Why clean eating can backfire

Let’s talk about the food rules in your head. You know, the ones you never agreed to but somehow feel guilty breaking. Don’t eat after 7 PM. Sugar is evil. Finish your plate or no dessert. Ultra-processed = ultra-toxic. These rules didn’t just appear out of nowhere. They’ve been conditioned into us through a mix of diet culture, childhood habits, and social media hysteria.

In today’s world, where Instagram health gurus and fear-based food headlines are louder than ever, people are afraid of food. Not just fast food or soda, but even fruit if it’s not organic, or bread unless it’s sprouted, or yogurt if it’s not raw and homemade. But this kind of moral judgment about what you eat isn’t helping your health—it’s probably hurting it.

If you’ve ever felt ashamed for eating a slice of pizza or guilty after enjoying dessert with friends, it’s time to challenge the “clean eating” narrative and build a healthier relationship with food.

The food guilt cycle

Here’s how the cycle usually goes: You stick to a perfect, clean diet for a while. You’re “being good.” Then something happens—stress, a vacation, dinner out with friends—and you deviate. You eat the cookie, or the burger, or the donut. Cue the shame spiral. You tell yourself you’ll do better tomorrow. The cycle starts again.

This pattern is common, but it doesn’t actually lead to long-term change. Instead, it wires your brain to associate certain foods with failure and morality rather than nourishment and choice.

But what if food wasn’t good or bad? What if eating cake didn’t mean you “fell off” your plan, but was simply part of a normal, flexible approach to food?

Your body already knows what to eat—if you listen

The key is getting in touch with your body’s feedback loop. When you eat something, how do you feel afterward—not just emotionally, but physically? Energized, clear-headed, satisfied? Or bloated, sluggish, and tired?

Most people never pause to reflect on that. We’re so used to eating based on rules or restrictions that we’ve lost the ability to tune into how food actually makes us feel. But when you start paying attention to your energy, digestion, sleep, mood, and even cravings, patterns emerge. You learn what foods truly nourish you, and which ones don’t.

This doesn’t mean you never eat the “fun” foods. It means you do so intentionally, without guilt, and with awareness of how they impact your body and your goals.

Redefining healthy eating without restriction

So, what does eating well look like when it’s not driven by fear?

• It’s diverse. You’re not eating the same five “safe” foods every day. You mix things up and experiment.

• It’s functional. You eat to feel good—not to hit arbitrary macros or check a “clean” box.

• It’s enjoyable. You actually like your food, because flavor and pleasure matter too.

• It’s intentional. You know why you’re eating what you’re eating, whether it’s for recovery after training, a special event, or simply because it sounds good.

In my own life and with my clients, I’ve seen how adding foods in—especially nutrient-dense, high-protein options—automatically crowds out the less nourishing stuff without needing to restrict. You don’t need a “cheat day” if you don’t feel deprived in the first place.

The power of language and how it shapes your habits

If you catch yourself saying, “I was bad last night,” or “I deserve this,” or “this food is clean,” stop and think. Food isn’t moral. Burgers aren’t dirty. Kale isn’t virtuous. These labels create invisible walls between you and your goals by tying your identity to what’s on your plate.

Let’s drop the labels and get specific instead. “I chose this food because I was tired and needed something quick.” Or, “I ate this because I wanted to enjoy dessert with my family.” These are honest reflections. And they help build trust in yourself—a far more powerful motivator than guilt.

Navigating restaurants, vacations, and the real world

Yes, most of us want to eat in a way that supports our physique, strength, or longevity goals. But life happens. Social events, travel, holidays—they’re all part of it.

Rather than white-knuckling your way through these situations, reframe them. You’re not “off plan.” You’re just making a conscious choice to participate in life. You can still be mindful: eat slowly, stop when full, skip the food that doesn’t taste that great. And maybe bring the leftovers home to enjoy later.

The goal isn’t perfection—it’s confidence. Confidence that your next meal will nourish you. Confidence that a few drinks or slices of cake don’t erase your progress. And confidence that you’re building habits that will actually last.

The 80/20 rule done right

I often talk about the 80/20 rule, and it applies perfectly here. Aim for 80% of your food to be nutrient-dense, whole, and aligned with your goals. The other 20%? That’s where life happens. Enjoy it. Don’t overthink it. And don’t apologize for it.

If you’re not tracking, focus on habits like adding protein, eating more plants, and tuning into your fullness signals. If you are tracking, be honest and include the “fun” stuff in your totals. Either way, the point is to build a pattern that’s sustainable—and that you enjoy.

Because if you can’t enjoy the process, what’s the point?

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Transcript

Philip Pape: 0:01

If you've ever looked at your grocery list and wondered, am I buying the right foods? And you've read every ingredient label, or you feel guilty about enjoying meals of friends because they don't fit your clean standards, this episode is for you. The rise of social media gurus has created a culture of fear around food, where everything seems potentially harmful, from anything in a package to even fresh fruits and vegetables. Potentially harmful from anything in a package to even fresh fruits and vegetables. My guest today reveals why this fear-based approach to eating might be worse for your health than the occasional indulgence. You'll discover what's more important than perfectly adhering to your diet, how to navigate grocery shopping without paranoia and some tips to enjoy eating again without sacrificing your health and fitness goals. Stop letting food fear control your life and learn how to build sustainable, enjoyable eating habits that actually improve your health long-term. Welcome to Wits and Weights, the show that helps you build a strong, healthy physique using evidence, engineering and efficiency.

Philip Pape: 1:03

I'm your host, philip Pape, and today we're discussing how to make food choices in our modern world without falling prey to fear, guilt and obsession. In a food environment dominated by processing, by ultra-palatability hard word to say and with social media constantly bombarding us with confusing and conflicting nutrition advice. Many people are scared of their food choices. My guest today is Alana Bonneman, a naturopathic nutritionist who specializes in helping women reconnect with their bodies and find sustainable approaches to nutrition, which is what we're all about here as well. She guides clients away from restrictive diets and toward nourishing foods that support abundant energy, balanced hormones and optimal health, and she is the host of the Health After 30 podcast, so give that a follow, because there's a conversation with us on there as well. Today, you'll learn why your relationship with food matters more than perfect adherence to clean eating, how to approach processed foods without fear, and some tips to make food choices that work for your lifestyle and health goals. Alana, good to see you again. Welcome back. Welcome to the show.

Alana Bonnemann: 2:09

Yeah, thank you, Welcome back yeah we just had a wonderful episode on the Health After 30 as well, so it's really good to be here.

Philip Pape: 2:16

So on that show we talked about lifting, we talked about nutrition and lifestyle and all that. Today, I really want to dig into the topic of food fear and the environment and kind of how people make choices. The first question that comes to mind then is, like what is going on when people are afraid of food? Like why is that even a thing? Let's start there.

Alana Bonnemann: 2:36

Well, I mean, that's a learned behavior, right. Why are we afraid of food? And that comes down to, perhaps, the psyche of things. Also, perhaps we could even go into the food rules that we've been taught. So this comes not only from society and Instagram and all the rest of it, but also what we've been taught at home. If you've ever heard or maybe you might even say it yourself no, you probably don't, but it's something that I definitely heard when I was growing up up that you need to finish all the food on your plate in order to get dessert. You know things like this, or yeah, you have to. What's another?

Philip Pape: 3:12

food rule yeah, clean your plate. No, you're right yeah, yeah.

Alana Bonnemann: 3:15

My grandmother would always say you know, if you leave any rice on your plate, that's the amount of holes that your partner's going to have in their face when they're older, like terrible, why that's so arbitrary. So we kind of grow up with these understandings of what food is. And also, you know, finishing a plate in order to get dessert, that means it's also putting this dessert and sweet stuff on a pedestal as well. So this distorted idea of what food is and how it serves us and how we should be eating it, rather than what we think we should be eating, becomes really, really difficult.

Philip Pape: 3:50

Yeah, yeah, and there's a should in there that I think is important, the word should and rules, and that really hits me hard because you and I were chatting, I think, off the record about just our history with that. So then the converse of this is like what would a world look like where people didn't have fear, guilt, morality related to food? Like what is that ideal vision If there was never any of this conditioning these food rules, anything else, what would that look like to you?

Alana Bonnemann: 4:16

The thing is you know what you feel good on. If you pay attention, you will know what foods make you feel light and agile and focused and full of energy and vitality. And you know the foods that don't make you feel that way. It's just that in today's society, when that's set up, the foods that don't make us feel so good, so that means perhaps sluggish, constipated, bloated, sedative you know, in a way they're just really delicious and they're designed to be delicious and that's not with your health in mind. That's obviously in the minds to make, make money or make business or, you know, just to basically sell things that are delicious.

Alana Bonnemann: 4:57

This is not to say that those things are bad. Food is food. It comes down to okay, how much should can we, how much do we thrive on of that? And that comes down to the ability to be able to listen to your body. So when you say how does an ideal world look like? It's different for everyone, because everyone needs different things. How much do you exercise? How much do you move? How's your stress levels? Where are you at in what stage of your life depends on how much we need to be eating. But knowing what foods you thrive on and what foods you don't, and if you went a little bit there then you would get a good understanding of what you should be eating.

Philip Pape: 5:36

Two corollary questions come up from this Cause. I love. I love how you got into that, like you know what you feel good on. The first question that comes to mind people might wonder is what if someone has been eating a certain way for so long that, at least in their own narrative or their mind, they don't feel that that's true, that they can't claim that they know what they feel good on, perhaps because they haven't given themselves the opportunity to see the difference? Is that a thing?

Alana Bonnemann: 6:02

So they've been following dogmatically we talked about as well a certain way. So perhaps what's their goal there and why are they doing it and are they feeling their best? And it's often funny if you ask people like how are you, how is your life, we usually will answer oh well, as an Australian, we answer yeah, great, everything's good, I feel well, I feel productive. But if you start to strip things back and you dive into well, how are we sleeping for women? How are you menstruating? How are your bowel movements? How is your energy? Do you need to rely on coffee to get through the day?

Alana Bonnemann: 6:41

If you start to kind of dig into that, then you might get some clues into what's working and perhaps what's not working as well. So a lot of the time when checking into your body which I think it really comes down to understanding what you need is getting in contact with your body, which is, let's be fair, a lost art. We don't know how to do it because it's kind of been drummed out of us or you know, just basically forgotten is our mind takes over.

Alana Bonnemann: 7:09

So if we're reading all the literature which I know is important and we need to know we need to know what's happening and how our bodies function and how different things work in our bodies.

Alana Bonnemann: 7:16

This is why the academic side of nutritional science is so wonderful, but if we just rely on that and we believe or we kind of put ourselves into that statistic of what that certain research says, it takes us away from us knowing what we need, what you need, what the individual needs. So I think at the base of this, it comes down to trust, understanding and feeling how to trust yourself and to be able to let go of things that you think might be serving you, perhaps are serving you but also might not be serving you. What you said really nicely on my podcast was you know you can take everything away but then reintroduce things, start to bring things in and see, you know if your world crashes you didn't say that, but you know. Basically, see if things crumble and I I really agree with that approach and if you've been living in a restricted, start to bring things in and see how it works and then you can go from there.

Philip Pape: 8:19

Yeah. So what you're saying, from what I hear, is being intentional and taking a moment to breathe and think and reflect on your life, because I think people do make the excuse, maybe about their food choices or their habits, and that's okay, right, like people, that's human behavior. But then to say, okay, I need to look at how, when I eat that protein bar, when I eat this food or drink this at this time of day, what is the cascade of data? I'll call it data is what you're telling me.

Philip Pape: 8:50

It's funny Cause we we joke about, like me being the sciencey guy and you being more fluid, but at the end of the day, we're still being intentional and observing and at the end, that's that's what data is right. So, to trust yourself, you want to define yourself and your identity and what's happening in this moment, and then it sounds like you can make changes from there. Let me ask you this you mentioned how food science and the food industry makes food so delicious, and does that mean that the foods that are good for you can't be delicious? Now, obviously it's a leading question, but let's address that.

Alana Bonnemann: 9:21

Yeah, well, you know Michael Pollan right? He's an American-based author. He has a little book called Food Rules, which I mean I find food rules to be a funny name, but he says which will kind of segue into my answer he's got these different rules and one of them is when you go shopping, it's to shop the periphery of the supermarket, so you walk in and you walk into the fresh produce and then on the peripheries it's usually freezers. That's how it is in Australia, that's how it is in Germany, I assume in the States and basically everywhere that's how it is. In the middle of a supermarket is aisles of canned, packaged foods. They're foods with additives. They're there to basically have long shelf lives, emulsifiers and lists that go quite long, and you know they need to be able to hold flavor and they need to be able, yeah, to be palatable. So they do these foods taste good, but they might not feel good also just because of the different ingredients that are in them as well.

Alana Bonnemann: 10:25

I think your question was can healthy foods taste good? Is that what you're alluding to? I mean, the thing is and I will be honest here when I first got into the health space, when I first started studying nutrition, I remember learning about all of the different benefits that nutrition can have. You know whether it was anti-inflammatory, for cardiovascular, for skin, for gut, for mood, for like, all the different things that tricks and tips that you could do in order to have a good diet. And I was not eating for the joy of eating, I was eating for the benefits of eating. So it didn't matter if it tasted good or not. Like, for example, a protein bar, do they taste that good? Like they do the trick to get a bit of protein in, but are they like? Do they taste that good? So you know whether we need this amount of protein or this amount of fiber.

Alana Bonnemann: 11:18

I think making sure that you're getting the right things, but also enjoying what you eat does play a huge like. It plays a huge part on it. Eating, like in cultures, it's such a huge part of what we do. We do it several times a day. It connects people. It connects with yourself. You know it is. It's the first thing we do. When we are like bottle fed or breastfed in a nurturing situation by our primary caregiver. You know they're there with us. So eating is a huge part of what we do and to some extent. Yes, it should be enjoyable and it can be enjoyable.

Philip Pape: 11:54

And I love that. And, of course, I ask a lot of leading questions or a lot of kind of questions from a place of skepticism for the person listening. I love food, I'm a huge foodie. I love to prepare nutritious foods and make them taste good and, honestly, if I'm trying to eat something like, let's say, brussels sprouts, because I know they're cruciferous and they have these nutrients and I heard they taste good, and yet my whole life I've had exposure to only boiled, canned Brussels sprouts that make me gag. And then I try fresh, roasted Brussels sprouts with a little bit of salt and they're divine, like this totally different food.

Philip Pape: 12:29

I think that's important. Like I've seen people comment no, it's not about enjoying your food, it's about fuel or it's about nutrition, and it's not, it's a human experience. So I think that's why I wanted to ask that early in this episode, so that people, you know, give themselves the permission to enjoy food, to actually seek out delicious ways to prepare, to purchase the ingredients, everything, but also understand when we say tasty or delicious or whatever. What do we mean? And if you eat Oreos and they spike your dopamine but then you know you got some rumblies in your tumbly right, like Winnie the Pooh would say maybe there's something off that doesn't work for you Now. Granted, I personally I could eat an Oreo every now and then when I'm in a bulking phase and it's whatever, but I'm actually thinking of it then as just fast sugary nutrition for a lifter in a tiny, tiny percentage of my calories.

Alana Bonnemann: 13:13

That's so interesting. So you see food in that respect, and I guess that's it. You're seeing food as serving a purpose for gain or loss.

Philip Pape: 13:24

It's a carve out. It's a carve out for if I have to eat 4,000 calories, I literally am not going to enjoy all 4,000 calories. Probably that's a different topic for a different day.

Alana Bonnemann: 13:35

Some people will, some people will eat all whole foods and it's more power, I mean, but I would I mean, yeah, I guess I would maybe put honey, or that's interesting because, yes, if you start to see just the calorie impact of the from an Oreo, of what you can get compared to, I never thought about that, to be honest. So I've never bulked, so it's never been, it's never been something that I've had to think of. And even for those who I work with, you know it's like feel good weight, sometimes it is weight gain. Okay, then how can we do it? And I usually do it with whole foods, but I never thought to, never crossed my mind.

Philip Pape: 14:09

Yeah, so, okay. So now I have another question for you, then. Do you think people should be striving for a 100% whole food diet, or that there should be some carve out or allowance or whatever term you use for whatever you know ice cream, baked goods, donuts, pizza, whatever.

Alana Bonnemann: 14:31

Yes, I, I straight up, I say eat cake and feel great, like not. I mean, you're on the same page. It's not about restrictions, but I think the difference between eating a food like an Oreo in order to get a result is different to I shouldn't eat this food. Go back to your first question, because the whole point is like, because that's bad and I can't eat this cake, it's not the cake. You know, if you eat cake seven days a week, your body's going to feel it. Your body's probably going to ask for something like a salad. But likewise, if you're just eating salad seven days a week, your body's going to ask for something like a cake.

Alana Bonnemann: 15:02

So no, and when you eat this cake, you want to not feel bad. You don't want it to be a terrible experience If your whole purpose is to lose weight, build muscle, whatever it is that you're trying to get with nutrition and then you're having a piece of cake or whatever it is, and you feel bad for eating it. You quickly smash it down and then you feel bad for eating it, or you quickly smash it down and then you feel bad for eating it. That's actually equally going into that diet cycle of like I want to get to a certain goal, I'm doing it, I'm motivated, I had a weak point, I feel guilt, I feel shame, I'm pathetic. Okay, I'm motivated again to lose weight again. And it's just, that cycle isn't helpful for anyone and it will usually keep people stuck in their let's call it a weight loss journey or in their health journey in order to get to a certain result.

Philip Pape: 15:51

Yeah, yeah, so so then, how does the language change when you work with somebody? And they are, you know, let's go, let's reverse engineer it. Somebody who's who's been successful and gone through this transformation and used to think of foods as good or bad, or had guilt or shame around certain foods. This binary thinking or moral thinking what does it look like when you don't have that anymore? What is the language someone will use around, say, a processed food that they just eat it because they want to eat it and it's?

Philip Pape: 16:20

not there's no moral judgment.

Alana Bonnemann: 16:21

Yeah. So in order to get to that place of no moral judgment, we need to actually address the language that we're using towards the foods. The whole industry and I get caught up as well doing it. Sometimes we will call it food good or bad, healthy, unhealthy, super junk food. And just by doing that like I went to a cafe the other day and it had clean like the cafe is like clean food, like acai bowl, like whatever it was there and I was just, I just observed that because that meant at this cafe that was clean, which meant the burger across the world. That's not clean, that's dirty. So even if you are perhaps not fully aware of like that clean or not, just the idea that it's not healthy, it's not clean.

Alana Bonnemann: 17:05

I'm going to have a burger, I'm doing something bad. Oh, like, I'm doing something naughty. I often hear that, oh, I deserve a piece of cake. It's something naughty. It's not naughty to have a piece of cake or a burger. If you do it intentionally, as the one-off thing, and you enjoy it, I think that's going to hit more dopamine than eating it and then feeling stress and guilt and shame afterwards. That's probably adding more to the stress and the imbalance of your health in general if you're seeing those foods as bad. So you can start with the language and this is you know. When we say healthy, healthy food, everyone kind of knows what healthy is or unhealthy is, but by just labeling those foods it really puts that judgment on the foods and then also the people eating them get that judgment whether it's yourself eating it or if you're judging other people for eating those foods as well.

Philip Pape: 17:58

Yeah, a hundred percent, it does, it does. And I even have deep seated in my brain when someone themselves declares that they're not eating something because it's quote unquote, unhealthy, and I'm there choosing to eat it. I think, wait a minute, what are you saying about me? But then you know, it's like back in your brain we want to belong, we want to be part of that group and it kind of isolates and singles people out. So with this diet culture because that's really what it is, this conditioning, the guilt and shame on food choices what are the signs that people should look for about themselves, to kind of reflect?

Philip Pape: 18:36

on themselves with this unhealthy food guilt and maybe how it connects with their well-being.

Alana Bonnemann: 18:38

I know we've talked about this a little bit, but just so someone is more aware of when and why they're doing this. Yeah, so I mean the diet culture like I grew up I I was born in the 80s, grew up in the 90s and this is when I think I mean diet culture's been around for ages, but it really hit home. Today we have more of this body positivity, but back in the 90s heroin chic was in and people you know this thin was almost synonymous for healthy. So it wasn't get healthy at any cost, it was get thin at any cost. And I've heard stories of women who used to just drink orange juice and eat cotton balls to get healthy.

Alana Bonnemann: 19:17

Not to get healthy, obviously, to get thin, and so like just the idea to do that and this is perpetuated. So we're trying to get thin, so we hop on any crazy diet to then get a certain result and that's that's backwards. That is not what we should be doing. The goal is to have energy. The goal is to have a functioning menstruation. You know a monthly, not you know painful bowel movements, hair, skin and nails strong. You know focus in your eyes and when you go to work you're feeling productive and you're feeling vital. That's the goal, I think, and also for me, that's again like with this feel good weight.

Alana Bonnemann: 20:00

The weight is actually a by-product of all of those things. I'll also throw sleep in there as well, you know, cause that's obviously important one, but that's, you know, that's, it's a by-product of you optimizing each area of those of that life and diet culture didn't do that. It didn't do any of that because it was all for getting thin. So the first thing is to kind of perhaps be aware of is it about my body or is it about my health? You know, I mean, you put you work with people in weight loss and weight loss. You know making these transformations. So what is it about in the end? What's their true, what's their true calling that they're coming to you to work with? And it usually is about the health, it's not about how they look, although that is the catalyst for people coming in. So that's, I think, the first place to be aware of it.

Philip Pape: 20:50

Yeah, that is huge, because if you're chasing the wrong goal, the feedback loop is not going to align.

Philip Pape: 20:56

In other words, what you do may reinforce that misaligned goal and then you're going to keep going down that path rather than the path you choose to go down. And you're right when it comes to weight loss or even body composition. When it's more physical, some of the most inspiring stories I hear from clients and just people in the general when they start down the path of doing what you're doing is the language around how they feel, the language around how other people perceive them, not physically, but like their energy and their showing up in their health and their confidence, and that can be more inspiring than anything, in my opinion. And then if you happen to have the byproduct of the physical side, that's great. Now, what about something like we talked about strength training on my show? What about somebody who does have a legitimate goal where they're trying to add weight to the bar and they're trying to get stronger and therefore some of these goals need to align with that? But that is physical, not so much about how they feel. What are your thoughts on that?

Alana Bonnemann: 21:53

Well, it's interesting, Cause when we chatted, you were like, okay, this needs to happen. People have to do weights, and you know and I was like, oh, that's so interesting Is that?

Alana Bonnemann: 22:01

okay, you know it's a similar thing, different approaches, so it's crazy. So I take a very holistic approach, very fluid approach, as I said, I will often work with. What is your resistance? What is your resistance to getting to a certain result? Okay, I would just give an example. It's actually the opposite. So it's the like losing rather than putting on.

Alana Bonnemann: 22:23

But, for example, someone who cannot start to get moving a client of mine comes to mind. It's a story of, yeah, I want to do it, but I can't actually do it, like I'm not starting, they're not taking action. It's like what's the resistance there? I get people to literally get a pen and paper and every morning, few pages writing down what's your resistance and writing down into the point where it gets uncomfortable and like why am I even writing about this? Keep writing, you will find the reason to what's resisting.

Alana Bonnemann: 22:58

And so, for example, with this client, she came back to me. She's like oh my gosh, when I was in primary school I was in a sports lesson and I was running and the PE instructor kind of slapped her on the ass and from then on, like for her that was just, it was so violating, and she just shut down and from then on she just stopped doing movement. So to get back to this point of okay, what's at the root cause of you not taking action and you not making change is a really important factor to kind of get through that, understand that and break, kind of break through from that as well, and I think you could kind of see it. Yeah.

Philip Pape: 23:38

Yeah, so resistance. So and the word I use for that is friction it's the same idea of like what is in the way, whether it's some short-term thing you're struggling with or the deeper what you suggested. I had a guest on not long ago Adam Badger was his name, and he talked about stress, and he was talking about how, a lot of times when something happens to us outside of us, we react in a way that ramps up our stress, but that reaction is rooted in something in our life that causes us to act that way where someone else might not. And so I love these ideas of getting further and further, deeper into potential root causes, without driving ourselves crazy, trying to like unpackage our entire psyche on day one right Cause it's a process.

Stephanie: 24:20

It's a process.

Philip Pape: 24:22

But I think that's really important. So let's talk about you mentioned. When we think of foods right, I think there's a spectrum of processing. Is is how a lot of people put it. Do you ascribe to that idea of categorizing foods that way of like, from minimally to ultra processed, and then alcohol needs to be in there too, being a toxin and kind of a unique thing. What are your thoughts on that for people?

Alana Bonnemann: 24:45

listening. Yeah, so there, I mean I think it's generally understood that there's whole foods, processed foods and then these highly ultra processed foods. And to kind of reference Michael Pollan again, because I really like his work, I think he even calls it food-like substances.

Philip Pape: 25:02

Okay, Just to make it sound gross, right? Yeah, a little bit.

Alana Bonnemann: 25:06

But so like, while I do see it like that, I think you know logically I see it like that but in the end food is food, like everything that's being sold at the supermarket is kind of food. So if you can imagine, like I have two children, I'm trying to raise them up to not have highly restrictive diets but to understand that you are going to have everything at your fingertips, like once they're 16 or even like even earlier, like I don't. We're not going to be able to control whatever they're eating. So it's the same for an adult as well. You have access to everything. And if you kind of see it all as food, and again it's actually getting back into your body and understanding what actually makes you feel good, versus the highly processed stuff which, while it tastes good, chances are it's not going to be making you feel good or function well. So yes, and then also on a biochemical level, obviously, when we've got all of these ingredients in these food-like substances, they're not benefiting the body in the way in which whole foods benefit the body as far as macro and micro nutrients go. So I mean, is it even a question to ask if it's out there? No, because they're obviously all available. It's how we kind of associate ourselves with all of them.

Alana Bonnemann: 26:22

Again, I would I try not to call them good or bad, because then it puts you back into the oh, like this is bad, I'm doing something bad. That is elevating that stress level which we want to kind of not, you know, like yeah, and it's also when we call salads good as well. It's just I'm just thinking about it because, like when stress, when stress is involved, stress elevates every single condition, whether it's a skin condition, whether it's a bowel condition, whatever you have, any type of stress is going to exacerbate that. So it's the same thing when you're thinking about nutrition, because so many people we can control our nutrition, we eat several times a day. That's something that we can control. So when we're controlling our nutrition, we eat several times a day. That's something that we can control. So when we're controlling our nutrition and we're not, we're doing things that we think are bad for us, then again this stress is spiked and that's what's going to cascade with every health concern in our body.

Alana Bonnemann: 27:14

Nervous system regulation is huge. So I think, just be aware and be mindful of the foods that are out there and again, and it's hard because they're all delicious and they're all advertised to us in very delicious ways. But understanding what it is that you want and understanding what your body thrives on, and also, if you're on a journey and you want to get there, then you have to be diligent. Motivation discipline can only push you so far. Well, discipline can actually get you probably a bit further than motivation. But you need you need to challenge yourself as well. In that space of challenge you do grow. And I think if you've just been used to kind of having all foods at once, it's going to be challenging to change that. But in that challenge you'll grow.

Philip Pape: 28:02

And this is where we have a lot of overlap right Is the idea that you are creating a sense of awareness, intention. I like the word diligence because it strikes me as an intentional perseverance and intentional decision-making, informed decision-making. It doesn't necessarily mean it requires massive mental energy, especially if you're reducing your resistance, your friction, like it can all come together in a way that's just pushing that comfort zone slowly over time and always improving, just like in the gym where you don't jump to a 400 pound deadlift on day one, you start with the empty bar and you move slowly you mentioned. I want to get back to the feeling good part and get more objective and dig into that so that the listener understands. What does she mean by feeling good?

Philip Pape: 28:47

A little story about my daughter. We have two daughters, 11 and 13. And my oldest daughter, for a while there had some anxiety about going to restaurants and I think the reason was she had a few experiences where it just didn't work well for her system, whatever she ate at a restaurant, because we eat so much prepared at home and my wife is just a great cook and she doesn't use many ingredients and you know we go to a restaurant like once every two or three weeks and it's like all the oils and sugars and fats, and again it's not the good or bad, it's just how do you feel Like. So she would do that and it would get.

Philip Pape: 29:20

She eventually had a little bit of anxiety. We said, hey, why don't we go out? And she just wouldn't enjoy it at all, no matter what it was. And eventually we started to become more intentional, like you said with her about hey, we are going to a restaurant, let's look at the menu, let's figure out together what might make sense and then understand that it's, you know, pretty close to what mommy makes at home. So, you know, give it a shot and then kind of see how you feel afterward. So I think that's a relevant story, but I want to understand from you for the listener how do you know what feels good?

Alana Bonnemann: 29:54

Yeah, well, it's interesting because her that level of anxiety is an indication, like I don't want to say red flag, but it's a, it's a big, it's an obvious sign that something is not going okay. So this can come in, like I mean, yeah, emotional things can come up stress and also we know that our brain and our gut are tight, like the brain access, like we know it's affected and what comes first. If your gut balance is also like your microbiome is out, then it affects your mental health and vice versa. So we know that mood or mental or emotional aspects do play into it. We also need to think about the physical effects that we get, like are we getting digestive cramps afterwards or reflux or just lethargy? You know what's happening with what we're eating or are we getting like super excited from like a bag of Oreos or whatever it is, like the sugar hits? So I think understanding how you're feeling because, okay, like I'm going to put this back down to a very basic thing the body has a life force that like flows through it and you can feel this life force, like if you clap your hands together, force that like flows through it and you can feel this life force, like if you clap your hands together, your hands start to tingle and you'll feel the life force dropping into your body to feel those feelings.

Alana Bonnemann: 31:15

And I don't want to bring it back to emotions all the time, but I think, like a lot of the times I'm working with people, it does come back to how they're feeling, whether they are stressed, whether they have anxiety. Those feelings also have a certain vibration in our body as well. They're not something to suppress and it's really good that you kind of talk through with your daughter. Okay, how can we do this? Because they're there telling us something Anger, for example. We need to listen to our anger. Or, if we're having guilt, listen to that. And what anxiety? What is it trying to tell us and why is it trying to tell us that?

Alana Bonnemann: 31:45

So I've totally diverged, but I think when, like when you, when we want to think about what feels good, you can have the mental side or the physical side of it. Sometimes they're conjoined and then you want to also tap in and listen to that and also perhaps honor that as well, because I think sometimes in your body it'd be like I don't actually want that. For example, if you've eaten breakfast and then you're going out for brunch and you're not hungry but you're eating, to be polite, because it's brunch. Then, even though your body's saying, but I'm not hungry, you kind of override it and then eat anyway. Even though your body's saying, but I'm not hungry, you kind of override it and then eat anyway. So in what ways can we kind of honor our body and listen to what our body's saying?

Philip Pape: 32:35

I think that's the core of it. That piece is actually very powerful in my opinion because if you go, if you extrapolate it to something like alcohol, which is so socially conditioned and, I'll say, twisted in terms of how it's portrayed right as this wonderful thing, and you think of the pressure people put on themselves just to imbibe because they're with people, because of the social whatever, that's kind of the extreme case of it, but I do like the idea that your hunger cues for example you alluded to your context of where you are with people is a variable, it's a very strong variable in your environment and you have control. You don't have control over that, but you have control over what you do within that situation. So understanding why you're making your decisions is really important. Speaking of why, when you go to the grocery store, because now we can get a little practical, get a little more practical.

Philip Pape: 33:24

This is all practical, I shouldn't say it's not, it's all right. They go to the grocery store now and that's a powerful place to be, because that is where you're purchasing all the things that are going to go in your body over the next week or so. Potentially if you cook a lot at home, which I recommend, but to each his own. That balances the. We'll say nutrition quality, cause we don't want to say good or bad, we don't want to say healthy, we want to say like the quality of the food for what you need, and feel with the enjoyment, with the practicality, with the indulgences, like how do we make it all work?

Alana Bonnemann: 33:56

We go to the grocery store. Yeah, I love that. Well, I find, to be honest, I find the grocery stores to be a rather depleting and depressing place. I mean, in Germany I feel like when I go to the fresh produce, all year round I have capsicums, paprika I'm not sure what you call them cucumbers, tomatoes and salad. I feel like the whole year these things are on offer and that is very like. That is a very limited amount of food.

Alana Bonnemann: 34:23

So if you want to kind of get the most out of what you're eating, you need diversity. You need to have diversity. I like to follow the. I like to follow the kind of what do you call it? I guess, let's say, rule If I have eaten it yesterday, don't eat it again today.

Alana Bonnemann: 34:39

So this way you're just changing up what you're eating, and there's some people who don't like having a lot of variety. But this means if you're eating apples like, just change the type of apples that you're eating. I guess, when things are in season, to also kind of eat with the seasons as well. But this is also really difficult. I mean, you can't. That means, you know, for us in Germany, probably in the States as well six months of the year it's winter and you can't have a lot of diversity. There's like potatoes and cabbage. So you need to get kind of clever and see how you can perhaps it's frozen stuff, you know to kind of bring in that diversity. And then when you are thinking of diversity, because you still want to have fun, you don't want it to just be fruits and veggies.

Alana Bonnemann: 35:22

You can't just live on fruits and veg and a good quality protein. You want to be able to kind of have fun. So I don't follow like a cheat day or a certain time, but it comes back to that, really said over and over again, this 80-20 rule. You want to make sure that the foods that you are eating they are as whole and fresh as possible but then also have room for fun. And I think if you've strictly followed something, a high regime, then it might be hard to relax a bit, and if you've strictly just always relaxed, it's hard to have a good regime. But with practice and it does take practice, practice is the progress in this you find a way of what I thrive on and what I can kind of add to.

Alana Bonnemann: 36:10

I think, with the foods that, let's say, less nutritious, the ones that are at least highly processed, the food like substances, why are we eating them? We need to kind of strip back to okay, how did we sleep? Do we need energy? Are we grabbing them for quick energy fixes? Are we coming back from a week of complete, you know, hard work? We're exhausted, we're stressed. Okay, we're eating them to kind of, you know, put down that feeling, or are we feeling sad? Or are we bored and therefore eating those foods? I think it's not necessary. It's what I tried to allude to before. It's not the foods, necessarily, but the reasons why we're eating them play a bigger part in the problem of them. Everyone knows how to eat healthy. If you say eat healthy, people know what that means. But actually doing that is the difficult step, like the actual act of doing it is what makes it hard. So yes, variety is number one, diversity variety and diversity.

Alana Bonnemann: 37:08

uh proportion so 80, 20, and then yeah, with also like moderation it's you know, yeah, moderation is everything as well.

Stephanie: 37:20

The most value that I got from this was the fact that I had someone that I could talk to about anything and that there was going to be no judgment. It was just well, here are your goals, here's the best way that you're going to achieve it, and then let's work together to help you feel inspired and motivated to do that and there's a lot of people out there trying to be coaches and not all of them have done the work and also just be a genuine person that is positive and coming from the heart in terms of wanting to help, and Phillip really embodied all of those qualities. I would recommend him to just about anyone that's looking to achieve goals in that realm of their nutrition and building new habits.

Philip Pape: 38:06

It's simple, but we do like to complicate things and until you've done it intentionally, you don't know what you are capable of. I mean, that's the way I see it is that right now, as we talk about food, I'm thinking of different foods because it's about lunchtime here. But I also thought what came to my head is the more I personally have gone toward this, you know, nutrient-dense, whole food, diverse approach, and I have a long way to go. Like we all do, we have things that we want to improve with the more I those foods and actually don't crave or want or need the quote unquote indulgences as much to the extent that, like, I can think of a bowl of frozen shrimp with some cocktail sauce as a really tasty, delicious afternoon snack that I would crave and that's awesome. Like, for me, that's great because I consume protein and some taste and whatever. It satisfies the all the things.

Philip Pape: 38:53

So the 80, 20 rule we use it a lot in this industry because I think it is effective. I think the idea of 80, 20 permeates a lot of things. Actually, there's the Pareto principle where, like, 20% of your effort leads to 80% of the results and I think same thing here is that 80, 20 is a good split. But when we say that, how does someone concretely do that? And I ask because we have different approaches. If I had a client who's just tracking their food, it literally is math. It's just like, let's make sure the calorie, like 10, 20% of your calories effectively are, you know, you're not crazy, like half and half like processed foods. Let's say, how do you do it when you're tracking in other ways or not tracking, or however you'd like to do it with clients?

Alana Bonnemann: 39:34

So I focus on what we add in first, like what can we add into your diet? Like when I first start working with someone, I don't ever strip anything away. Like, similar to you, I don't want to restrict anything and usually when you add things into the diet and that becomes a new way of how you do things, it just naturally pushes things out. And while you don't necessarily see that, I mean you like, sometimes with my clients I keep like a food and mood journal what are you eating and how do you feel? So they're writing it down. There, is that awareness there and that assertiveness. But, yes, it's not what you see to be like, oh, I've done this and tick, it's kind of done. It's more of a okay, like I realize that this week I haven't, yeah, eaten this, that and the other.

Alana Bonnemann: 40:18

But in saying that, while we're bringing in foods, I'm also working on the reasons that they would grab for those 20% rule, you know, in the first place Because, again, if your way of dealing with boredom or exhaustion is to go for food, that's always going to be your default, no matter how, how hard you try to stay disciplined at some point you can do it now. For a few months. You can even do it for a year, but if then something happens that just makes you break, then you're going to default back to that. So we need to change that default loop, and so it kind of works. You're working in two ways we're working to break the cycle and also just add in things that are then going to make you also not want them to.

Philip Pape: 41:05

Love it. Change the default loop that hits it right on the head with that phrase. Right, Because it's what is the thing you're always coming back to when life throws its worst at you, right that's the habit you want.

Philip Pape: 41:18

It's not what do you deviate from because of life. So that's powerful In that case. One of the things that many people face regularly is all the social things right, going to restaurants, being asked to go to happy hour, wanting to go to a party, vacation, travel, all the things. And you know there's so many like download my you know travel eating guide, download my travel training guide, and it's like all the traditional things like plan ahead and look at the menu and all that. But how do you get people to become comfortable in their default while maybe doing having that kind of lifestyle?

Alana Bonnemann: 41:53

To honestly, to start off, I don't.

Alana Bonnemann: 41:55

People are like I'm going on holidays to Italy, I'm like enjoy Italy. So at the start it's like that. At the start it's like that, and that's the thing is, on holidays your 20 becomes your 80 and your 80 becomes your 20. And if you're on holidays for longer than three weeks, after some point you probably get constipated and then realize that you need to change and kind of go back to the ways that you're doing things. But as people become more understanding that this way of living, living aligned with their health and I also call it your higher healer Once you tap into something which makes you feel completely different from inside to out, you are unapologetically kind of show up for yourself.

Alana Bonnemann: 42:39

The drinking culture is a huge one, because to go to a bar I live in Germany to go to a bar and everyone's drinking beer and you kind of ask for like a water, sparkling water you know people will say you know like what's, what's wrong with you?

Alana Bonnemann: 42:52

Or oh yeah, you're the healthy and you know at some point, like I stopped caring, like I care what you. Or oh yeah, you're the healthy and you know at some point, like I stopped caring, like I care what you think, but I care about what I think about myself more and I'm living my life in a certain way because I, like, this is how I want to live. So I think you know, when you start, you know in your perhaps not fully committed, then, yes, go on holidays and enjoy it and go to the bar every now and then and live that life, that's totally fine. But for the people who are then aligned with their authentic way of living and say, no, this is what I stand by and this is how I do it, you can then also, but to do that, you have to find what your truth means to you, and that is I'm packing all that uncomfortable stuff that you don't want to do in the first meeting.

Philip Pape: 43:39

For sure, and you want people to fall on their faces sometimes and, like, I saw this funny meme that says, even if you fall on your face, you're still moving forward, right, which is the truth of it.

Philip Pape: 43:51

And since they have a guideline and a structure they're trying to follow. And again, I always come back to engineering words, but effectively, what you're saying right is be intentional. Then you know when you're deviating, because you're being more aware of what's happening in your body. So, let's say, you do go to a restaurant and I say restaurant because that is where some people struggle, right, because it's easy to just over-consume and over-indulge with, even if you are thinking I'm going to have lean meats and vegetables because those taste good, and I'm gonna do this, and that you've got, of course, the alcohol is its own thing You've got the appetizer flowing, you've got all the salads and then the food and the dessert, potentially there for the taking, and you're trying to enjoy this social experience. It's like people are thinking, okay, great, like five days, six days out of the week, my default is this wonderful thing where I'm in tune with my body, and yet I go to a restaurant, and how do I still do that? Right, that's kind of what I'm getting at. People are wondering about.

Alana Bonnemann: 44:43

Yeah, that's a good question, because when you go to the restaurant, like at the end of the day, like when you see food as calories in, calories out, so to say, or I have to eat this many or I can't eat that many it becomes really difficult. Because then you know it's like oh, a beer, is this mention? Okay, but I'm also having this meal. Oh, I don't want a dessert too, and then you kind of it becomes stressful. But if you eat till satiation, like and again honoring your body, I don't want to eat anymore. Or like you know, I'm listening to your hunger cues then do you eat just to like stuff yourself?

Alana Bonnemann: 45:24

And that might the answer might be yes, because it tastes good and like. No judgment there. But you know, if you are living the life where you're like I'm eating because I'm hungry and I'm stopping when I'm full and you're aware of that, then that actually changes the whole entire meal eating out experience. So I think that's kind of how I. Yeah, because listening to our hunger cues and our satiation cues are one of the biggest parts of tapping into our bodies. So I think that's one of the largest parts there.

Philip Pape: 45:54

And that's very consistent with everything you've said today, which is being in tune with that and letting that drive decisions in the moment and not having to artificially constrain yourself via whatever it is right. It's funny you say that because I think of going to an Italian restaurant around here where it's almost all pasta dishes with rich sauces and things, and of course, you can choose to have different, you can choose other things on there, and I know if I have a Alfredo sauce it's probably not going to feel great. So right there I'm thinking okay, my body tells me maybe I want a lighter sauce just to begin with, but even if I do choose to have it, half of that's going to go in the takeout box, Like for sure, because you're right.

Philip Pape: 46:39

You, unless you're mindlessly eating, which is another piece of this is intention.

Stephanie: 46:40

My wife, my kids and I we all have. We have four boxes Every time we go to the restaurant.

Philip Pape: 46:41

This is lunch tomorrow, which is great, because then you save money and you have more food ready to go for the next day.

Alana Bonnemann: 46:44

Yeah, but it comes down having this intention and tapping in with your body, like what we first started talking about. Why is there so much fear around food? And I think, when you're not sure what you should be eating and how you should be eating it, which is aligned with you know, how much exercise are you doing, depending on how much you need? Are you listening to your body's cues? Am I hungry, am I full? Is it appetite?

Alana Bonnemann: 47:08

Appetite's the psychological want for foods, like you walk past Subway and you're like, oh, actually I do want a Subway. That's your appetite, that's not hunger, hunger is. You know you might be lightheaded, your stomach has like some pains in it, like that's the hunger. And so when you yes, when you kind of align with what your goals are and why you're doing this whole transformation, aligning it with exactly how you feel in your body, you become perhaps like more convicted in your food choices and you know I'm making these right choices and there is less of that. Oh, like carbs are bad, I'm scared of carbs. Can't have a cake because, oh, it's bad, and that all will then kind of fall away.

Philip Pape: 47:49

Yeah, I'm hearing that you become confident in your choices, you own them, you become the, you know, the master of your own, your own choices, which is a great place to be. So, as we wrap up cause I think we covered, we covered a lot of great things at all, interconnected ultimately, which is wonderful, and that happens. Is there anything you wish I did ask and if so, what is your answer?

Alana Bonnemann: 48:09

Oh, that's a lovely question. I think perhaps is there and you also touched on this the word holistic. Is there a more holistic approach to self-mastery, optimizing ourselves, getting in contact with our own self, and how can we do that? I think a holistic approach, which is the movement, the strength as you talk about, is one aspect. The biochemical, the toxins, also the nutrition that we put into our body, is the second. The mental and emotional aspect is the third and then I think all encompassing in that is also perhaps I almost want to say spirituality to it, to understanding that our bodies I mean people call our bodies temples you always hear this like your body's your temple.

Alana Bonnemann: 49:00

I feel like your bodies are actually inherited, like a lifelong inherited mansion that you kind of get from your forefathers, and it's filled with habits, these cycles and the way that, the things that we triggered us, perhaps even why we are the way we are, and we need to do some deep work on that first, or at some point to do some work there, because this connects you with a higher version of yourself, a higher, a higher power, which which really then drives you to make the choices, not because you think you should or not because society says you should, but because you genuinely want to be at that place.

Alana Bonnemann: 49:45

I think, yes, you didn't have to ask that question. But when I think about the underlying basis of why I do what I do and how I do everything, I think that is also it, because ultimately, in the end of the day, I would love to see in everyone like a healer in every home. I would love to have a space, a space and a healing area in your house where you have the ability to heal. My dad's a chiropractor and the chiropractic philosophy is the power that made the body, is a power that heals the body, and I genuinely stick by that. And of course, food and of course movement has something to do with that. Of course our mental health does, but then again also the spiritual too.

Philip Pape: 50:22

I love that. I love that. Yeah, I'm definitely open to many of these ideas and to me it comes down to purpose and something deeper and philosophical that we can't necessarily explain. And I love how you said we're connected to our forefathers because we are, I think, physiologically and like genetically, but also there's something that's passed through us culturally and and in some other ways we can't explain potentially. So it's great, the mysteries of the universe, beautiful, all right, we love that.

Stephanie: 50:51

We love that.

Philip Pape: 50:53

So, all right, all right, we want people to find you and I'll definitely be including a link to your podcast, since, um, you know, again, we have another conversation where you interviewed me there. But where do you want folks?

Alana Bonnemann: 51:02

to reach out. Come to alannabonnemancom. I mean that's, if you want to reach out. I guess that's where I hang. Instagram is also there, youtube, linkedin, they're all there, um, but I think the hub of everything I do is at alannabonnemancom.

Philip Pape: 51:17

Cool, We'll make it simple. Podcast alannabonnemancom. You can find all of your resources. You're a very special person, Alanna. I've had lots and lots of interviews, but this was so positive, so much energy and enthusiasm, and I love the fact that we are different in so many ways but also care about the same thing and have purpose and spirituality in abundance. I think so. Thank you again for coming on.

Alana Bonnemann: 51:40

Thank you as well for having me. I also very much enjoy that we have similar outlooks and work in very different ways, but get the same result and also have the same approach. We're always learning.

Philip Pape: 51:53

We learn from each other, so thank you so much for coming on. Likewise, we're always learning, yeah, and we learn from each other, so thank you so much for coming on.

Alana Bonnemann: 51:58

Likewise. Thank you, Philip.

Lose Fat vs. Burn Fat (Randle Cycle, Low-Carb, and Fasted Training) | Ep 327

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Confused about "fat burning" versus actual fat loss? Learn why you can be "burning fat" during workouts while not losing body fat.

Today I break down the difference between fat oxidation (using fat for fuel) and fat loss (reducing stored body fat) that most people misunderstand.

You'll discover how the Randle Cycle affects metabolism, why fasted cardio isn't the magic bullet you've been told, and what really determines whether your body sheds fat... regardless of what fuel you're burning in the moment.

We clear up some misunderstandings about low-carb diets (keto and carnivore), being fat adapted, and what's actually most important for fat loss.

Main Takeaways:

• Fat oxidation (burning fat for fuel) and fat loss (reducing stored body fat) are completely different physiological processes

• The Randle Cycle explains why carbs temporarily suppress fat burning, but this doesn't make low-carb diets superior

• Low-carb diets increase fat oxidation but don't produce better fat loss results when calories and protein are equated (in fact, sometimes the opposite is true)

• For successful fat loss, focus on what directly influences body composition

• Adopting an engineering mindset means optimizing for outcomes (fat loss) rather than processes (fat oxidation)

Timestamps:

0:01 - Why burning fat doesn't always mean losing fat
 3:14 - Fat oxidation vs. fat loss
5:09 - The Randle Cycle and fuel selection (glucose vs. fatty acids)
9:36 - Low-carb diets and fat loss
13:42 - Any benefits of fasted cardio (beyond fat burning)?
15:04 - What actually determines fat loss
16:25 - Optimize for outcomes, not processes
17:55 - What you measure vs. what matters = more freedom

Why Fat-Burning Workouts Don't Always Burn Fat Off Your Body

If you're doing fasted cardio or a low-carb diet because you think it's keeping you in "fat-burning mode," this episode is going to clear up a massive myth and save you a lot of time, frustration, and spinning your wheels.

There’s a huge difference between burning fat for fuel and losing fat from your body. Most people confuse the two, and that’s why they aren’t getting the results they expect. They’re told to do things like low-carb diets, keto, fasted workouts, or fat-burning workouts and assume these things directly lead to fat loss. But that’s not how physiology works.

Fat oxidation vs. fat loss: they’re not the same

When you burn fat during a workout (technically called fat oxidation), your body is simply using fat as a fuel source in that moment. That doesn’t mean it’s pulling fat from your love handles or belly to do it. Fat loss happens over time when you consistently eat fewer calories than you burn (a calorie deficit), forcing your body to mobilize and reduce stored fat.

In fact, it’s entirely possible to burn a lot of fat during the day and still gain fat if you’re overeating fat at the same time. Low-carb diets increase fat oxidation, yes, but they also increase fat intake so it nets out. It’s not about what fuel you’re burning right now, but whether your body is consistently dipping into its fat reserves overall.

What the Randle Cycle actually tells us

The Randle Cycle (aka the glucose-fatty acid cycle) explains how your body chooses which fuel to burn. If glucose (from carbs) is available, your body burns that first. If it’s not, it turns to fat. But just because your body is burning fat doesn’t mean you’re losing fat. You’re simply using the fuel you gave it. If you ate a bunch of fat, your body will burn fat. If you’re fasting or low-carb, your body will burn fat because that’s what’s left. It says nothing about the fat stored on your body.

This is the trap a lot of folks fall into. They go low-carb, see high fat oxidation, and think they’re melting fat off their bodies. But if calories are equal (as shown in tightly controlled studies), low-fat diets actually result in slightly more body fat loss than low-carb ones. Why? Because calories and energy balance matter more than momentary fuel usage.

Fasted cardio isn’t a fat-loss hack

Fasted cardio is often touted as a way to torch more fat. Yes, you burn more fat during the workout if you haven’t eaten. But again, that doesn’t mean you’re losing more body fat. Over a 24-hour period, total fat loss is the same as with fed cardio when calories are equated. Multiple studies back this up.

Fasted training might feel good for some, be more convenient, or improve fuel flexibility, but don’t confuse burning fat in a session with actual fat loss. The long-term effect is what matters.

What really drives fat loss

If you want to lose fat and keep it off, stop chasing "fat-burning mode." Instead, optimize for the actual outcome: a better body composition. That means:

• Creating a calorie deficit you can stick to

• Prioritizing high protein to preserve muscle

• Strength training with progressive overload

• Recovering well (sleep, stress management, hormonal health)

• Making it sustainable for your lifestyle

These are the same principles I covered in the previous episode on the 3+3 Model of Optimal Fat Loss. You’re engineering a result, not chasing a metabolic label.

Train for strength, not just fat burning

Your workouts shouldn’t be about how many calories you burn. That’s short-sighted. Instead, use training to preserve muscle mass, drive performance, and shape your body. Cardio is fine, and walking is a great daily movement habit, but don’t fall into the trap of treating the gym like a fat-burning session. It’s a stimulus for change, not a punishment for what you ate.

Optimize for outcomes, not fuel types

From an engineering perspective, this all comes down to inputs and outputs. Your body needs energy. If you give it less than it needs, it has to pull from somewhere, usually stored fat. Whether it burns fat or carbs in the moment doesn’t matter. Focus on the systems that produce the result: sustainable eating, proper training, and consistent recovery.

Once you understand this, you can stop obsessing over being "fat-adapted" or timing your meals around workouts. You’ll get to your goals faster, with less frustration, and with strategies you actually enjoy.

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Transcript

Philip Pape: 0:01

If you've ever been confused about why you can burn fat during a workout but not actually lose body fat, or why low-carb diets promise to keep you fat-adapted in fat-burning mode, yet sometimes fail to deliver results, this episode is for you. Today, we're uncovering the difference between fat oxidation and actual net fat loss that almost everyone misunderstands. You'll learn how the Randall Cycle affects your metabolism, why fasted cardio might not be the magic bullet you think it is, and what really determines whether you lose fat, regardless of what fuel your body is burning in the moment. Welcome to Wits and Weights, the show that helps you build a strong, healthy physique using evidence, engineering and efficiency. I'm your host, philip Pape, certified nutrition coach, and today we're looking at one of the most misunderstood concepts in fitness, and that is the difference between fat burning, or the technical term oxidation, and fat loss, which is literally losing fat from your body generally by losing weight and holding on to muscle. This confusion is often led to questions that come up on a daily basis, especially when I write or do an episode about carbs or low-carb diets, where people say, well, I'm fat-adapted or I burn more fat because I'm low-carb, and it's a complete misunderstanding of what's actually going on, and so people chase down ineffective diets, potentially restrictive diets that are miserable. They waste their workouts by not training the right way and then they get frustrated. They can't figure out why they're not seeing results despite doing the things you're supposed to do. To quote unquote burn fat. The reality is that fat burning and fat loss are two completely different physiological processes. It's unfortunate that they sound very similar, but if we can understand the distinction, it will help you improve your body composition because you'll be informed on whether you're putting your energy in the right place. So by the end of the episode, my goal is to help understand why things like low-carb diets, fasted cardio, other popular quote-unquote fat-burning strategies might not be working as promised. They might have some misdirection in there, and what you should focus on instead if you really want the results.

Philip Pape: 2:27

Before we dive in, I do have a quick favor to ask If you enjoy today's episode. Take a moment to leave a five-star review on Apple Podcasts. Each month, I'm randomly selecting one reviewer and they're going to receive a free protein supplement of their choice. This is my way of saying thank you for supporting the show, and the reviews help other people discover this show, why people like it and how it might help them to escape the sea of confusion, of misinformation that's out there. So again, go to Apple Podcasts, submit a five-star review, do it on your iPhone or Apple device, and if you don't have that device or don't use an Apple podcast, feel free to throw in a rating on Spotify, or just shoot me a message and say, hey, show's great, thanks for doing it, and that'll make my day All right.

Philip Pape: 3:14

So let's get into the topic and start by defining what we're talking about. The confusion between fat oxidation and fat loss is, honestly, at the heart. It is at the root of so many popular strategies today that are misguided, oftentimes because of this very thing. So what is the difference? Fat oxidation when we say fat burning, right, that is a metabolic process where your body breaks down fat molecules to produce energy, and that's what typically mean when they talk about burning fat during exercise or following a diet or in any situation, fasted training, etc. It's essentially the use of fat as fuel, which is great. We want to do that. We want to use our fat, especially if you're trying to lose it, which leads me to fat loss. See, fat loss actually is the reduction of stored body fat over time, and this is what most of us are actually trying to achieve. When we say we want to lose fat, it's not that we want to just burn fat in a vacuum. We want to lose the net fat stored on our body and we want to add more muscle. We want to lose fat right. We want to look better, leaner, more fit, we want to be stronger, more healthy, more athletic all of the things. So I think what most people miss is that these two processes burning fat for fuel in the moment versus reducing stored body fat over time don't always go hand in hand. In fact, oftentimes they don't go hand in hand. They're different, independent things going on. You can oxidize plenty of fat during your workouts. Going on, you can oxidize plenty of fat during your workouts, but not lose body fat from your body. Conversely, you can be primarily burning carbohydrates during exercise, yet still lose significant amounts of body fat over time, and so this disconnect leads to confusion, especially around low carb diets, keto carnivore, fasted training all sorts of strategies you know, fat burning workouts that promise to maximize fat burning. So that's why I'm creating this episode.

Philip Pape: 5:09

Now let's take a look at the physiology first. I think that's a great place to start and there's something called the Randall cycle. Now I heard about this a long time ago. I kind of forgot about it, specifically by name, until a YouTube commenter mentioned it and they said hey, if this is all true, if low carb diets might not be beneficial for a lot of people, um, why, what about the cycle? Why, why? Why isn't that the reason low carb diets would be so beneficial?

Philip Pape: 5:35

So the Randall cycle it's also known as the glucose fatty acid cycle. It was first described by Philip Randall in the sixties 1963. And it describes the relationship between carbohydrate and fat metabolism in our bodies. So essentially it explains that when your body has both glucose and fatty acids available right, glucose from carbs, fatty acids from fats available as fuel they compete with each other. So when glucose levels are high, your body's going to preferentially burn glucose and suppress fat oxidation right, so it's burning glucose because it's there instead of fat. When glucose levels are low, your body's going to shift to burning more fat.

Philip Pape: 6:15

Now, before I move on, notice what this means. This means when someone says glucose is the body's preferred energy source. That is a true statement, meaning it will burn that if it's available first, then it will burn fat. But of course, if you deprive yourself of carbohydrates, it has no choice but to burn fat. So let's continue. So this is kind of a reciprocal in a way, but it is a little bit asymmetric. Your body's designed to use whatever fuel's most readily available, but it's going to go for glucose first if it's available. That's why it's slightly asymmetric. But it's going to preserve whatever's in shorter supply effectively for when it might be needed later. And that's why the low carb advocates and the fasted cardio enthusiasts where they come in, because they on one hand correctly note that high insulin levels from carbohydrate consumption suppresses fat oxidation, but then they conclude that to lose body fat you should minimize carbohydrate intake to stay in that fat burning mode as much as possible.

Philip Pape: 7:11

But here's the flaw Very important what matters for fat loss isn't the fuel you're burning at the moment, but your overall energy balance over time. That's the key distinction here. So guess what's happening on a low-carb diet? You're eating more fats. In other words, you are taking in the same amount of energy. You're just burning a different type of energy because you have more of it. That's all you're doing, right? Whereas a person with moderate to high carbs is eating less fat. So they're burning more carbs. It all nets out to the same thing in terms of energy balance, and the Randall cycle simply addresses the fuel selection. You know you have a fuel selection dial. Am I going to burn glucose or am I going to burn fat? It's not the chronic change in your fat mass on your body.

Philip Pape: 7:57

So if I gave you a concrete example, let's say you're eating a low carb, high fat diet, right, keto, carnivore, we know them. Your insulin levels are gonna be relatively low and you'll be primarily oxidizing fat for fuel throughout the day. And if you're on keto, you might be to the point of past ketosis where you are what people call fat-adapted, where you just that's always what you're doing. So that's great. You're burning fat, right, you're burning fat right. But if your total calorie intake exceeds your expenditure, you're still going to gain body fat, even though you're primarily using fat as fuel, because the dietary fat you consume but don't immediately burn is going to get stored. So you're just eating more fat and that all that extra fat is now going to get stored, whereas with the other guy who's eating a balanced diet, the extra carbs are going to get or the fat's gonna get stored while you burn the carbs, it doesn't matter. The energy nets out, right. So again, conversely, if you eat a higher carb diet but you maintain a calorie deficit, right? So this is a lot of the people I work with who want a more flexible diet, more balanced, where they can enjoy their carbs, but then we put them into a calorie deficit, guess what? You're still going to burn glucose, primarily during and after meals because of the carbs, which suppresses your fat oxidation, but over a 24-hour period, your body's still going to need to tap into those fat stores once it runs out of glucose to meet its energy needs, resulting in net fat loss, just because you don't have enough energy period Total energy coming in. And that happens even though you're not maximizing fat burning. Right? Fat oxidation at every moment. And this distinction becomes important when we look at how this applies to specific strategies.

Philip Pape: 9:36

Let's start with low carb diets. I know I've already hammered it a little bit, but I want to go one level deep. And then there's absolutely no question that reducing carb intake shifts your metabolism toward greater fat oxidation. We know that. I'm not going to dispute that. That's a fact. Studies consistently show higher rates of fat oxidation both at rest and during exercise in people following low-carb diets, and that is what the Randall Cycle would predict, but it does not translate to better fat loss outcomes, because when calories and protein are controlled, the answer is an emphatic no, there is no difference.

Philip Pape: 10:14

A meta-analysis by Hall and Guo in 2017 found that low-fat diets actually produce slightly more fat loss than low-carb diets when calories were equated. Now, part of the reason for that could be because, guess what? Your body requires more energy to digest carbs than it does fat, just like it requires more energy to digest protein than carbs or fat. So that could be one of the reasons why. There's probably other reasons behind there we're not going to get into today, like anti-catabolism, supporting your training, et cetera. Similarly, and also your stress and metabolism. Okay, enough of that. But similarly, there was a study. It was a highly controlled metabolic ward study. Everybody locked in one place and fed a controlled diet. This is by Hall in 2015,. Found that a low-fat diet led to slightly more body fat loss than a low-carb diet, despite the low-carb diet showing increased fat oxidation.

Philip Pape: 11:06

Now, my point isn't to say that low-fat's better than low-carb diet showing increased fat oxidation. Now, my point isn't to say that low-fat's better than low-carb. It's to say that there's no advantage to low-carb when it comes to fat oxidation and fat loss. Right, yes, you have more fat oxidation, but you're not going to lose any more fat. Now it doesn't mean low-carb diets can't be effective for fat loss either. That's what I want to say. They can be, but not because they maximize fat oxidation.

Philip Pape: 11:29

They work for most people because, number one, you're going to increase your protein intake, which is something everybody needs to do to preserve muscle mass. Number two, it can improve appetite control in some people. Some people actually get hungrier on higher carbs. So having the higher fats and protein helps with satiety Totally true phenomenon that happens. Number three, you reduce water retention, and this is just the appearance of much more rapid progress early on. So when somebody says I went on keto and I lost 10 pounds, yeah, most of that's water weight. And then, number four, it makes your diet, I'll say, simpler in terms of food choices, which will have the illusion of making it easier to adhere, and actually does so for some people, but for most people it actually makes it harder long-term because you're avoiding things that you might otherwise want to enjoy. But again, there are exceptions. There are some people who are like, yeah, I'm happy as a clam on my very limited set of food choices, that's fine, okay.

Philip Pape: 12:20

The point here is the effectiveness of a low-carb diet for fat loss doesn't have to do anything at all with increased fat oxidation and has everything to do with energy balance. Always comes back to that, and the same principle applies then to fasted cardio. I want to talk about fasted cardio. This is an interesting one, because it is true that exercising in a fasted state, especially first thing in the morning before breakfast, results in higher fat oxidation during the workout. And if you have not recently consumed carbs to raise insulin, your body relies even more heavily on fat. So if you never eat carbs, of course you're fat adapted. It's just going to be burning a ton of fat. But this again acute increase, right? This energy selection process toward fat burning doesn't translate to greater fat loss over time, for all the reasons we've already discussed, but I'll just throw another study at you by Schoenfeld, a guy I very much respect in the space. This was from 2014,. Found no difference in fat loss between women performing fasted cardio versus fed cardio when total calorie intake was controlled. So what matters is total energy deficit if you're going for fat loss and not whether that deficit comes from fat or carbohydrate oxidation.

Philip Pape: 13:42

Right Now, that's not to say fasted cardio, has no benefits at all. Again, I love nuance and individualizing here. The first thing that comes to mind is it's more time efficient. For some people. You get up in the morning and you go right. The other thing is it might improve your ability to switch between fuel sources, and then this is an interesting one. Whether that's beneficial in any other way is, I think, still up for debate, but it does do. It does potentially do that it might help you feel better if you don't like exercising, you know, with food in the morning or you don't have time to eat food, you know there's lots of like logistical and preference reasons for this. And then it might have benefits for certain populations with certain metabolic disorders. I never disclaim that that's a possibility.

Philip Pape: 14:26

But if you're just trying to lose fat, you know you have to focus on creating a sustainable energy deficit, and our last episode was all about that. It was all about fat loss. So go listen to that if you missed it. And this happens through your new training. New training this is the combination of nutrition and training called new training, through your nutrition and training approach. Your lifestyle is going to be way more impactful than worrying about whether you're maximizing fat oxidation, and by way more I mean like all of it. In other words, extra fat oxidation from low carb or faster training, whatever is going to make not a lick of difference in your overall fat loss relative to what the other lifestyle changes will.

Philip Pape: 15:04

So if acute fat burning, fat oxidation, is not the key to fat loss, what is Well? Again, it comes down to basic thermodynamics and energy balance. To lose body fat, you have to create an energy deficit where you consume fewer calories than you expend. That is it, and that forces your body to mobilize whatever energy is stored and available right, preferentially from fat tissue, to meet its needs. And again, if you don't have enough calories coming in and you're still consuming carbs, it's going to go to carbs and then it's going to go to fat, but the net effect is the same, right. So the key factors here are then the total calorie intake versus your expenditure, your protein intake, resistance, training and the ability to adhere to your diet. Of course, recovery is massive as well All the things I spoke about in the last episode, the three plus three model of fat loss.

Philip Pape: 15:52

So go for, listen to that, for a deep dive. And none of these things depend on maximizing fat oxidation at any given moment. That is just energy systems. That is just your body saying hey, I'm efficient, you need energy, I need to give you energy. Let's see what's on the menu today. Is it glucose or is it fat? It doesn't matter, it's all energy to your body, right. And at the end of the day, the deficit and the energy balance is what matters. Which brings me to an important engineering principle that applies perfectly here Optimize for the outcome, not the process.

Philip Pape: 16:25

Now, you might be confused when I say this, because I talk all the time about how important the process is. But if we think of engineering where we focus on the end result, the product, the system, the service, the software, we then reverse, engineer and work backward to determine the most efficient way to achieve it. We don't get caught up in optimizing I'll say, individual steps if they don't materially affect the final outcome. We care about an efficient process that gets us to the outcome right, and then we focus on the process, but we optimize for the outcome and for fat loss. This means focusing on the factors that directly influence body composition over time, not on momentary metabolic processes that have little impact on the end result, like I'm not going to tell you to drink more coffee because it might have a slight thermo thermic boost in your metabolism. That's not an efficient way to optimize the process. Think of it like this If you're trying to save money, what matters is the difference between your income and your spending right, not whether you pay for a purchase with cash or credit. That's effectively what this is Glucose or fat, cash or credit doesn't matter. It's all coming from your energy budget. So, with fat loss, what matters is the difference between your intake and expenditure, not whether you're burning fat versus carbs at a given moment. And now I want to address one more aspect of this topic that causes a lot of confusion, and that is the difference between what we measure and what matters. And this goes back to what I just said about optimizing for the outcome.

Philip Pape: 17:55

When people follow low-carb diets or they do fasted cardio or any of these fat-burning tricks, they often point to indicators of increased fat oxidation as proof that they're working. They might mention ketones Look, look at all the ketones in my urine or blood work. They might mention a lower respiratory quotient RQ during exercise oh, I'm burning more fat because my RQ is lower. They might say that they are fat adapted. Oh, I feel great. I have steady energy, I don't have crashes, all my inflammation has gone away. You guys seen these posts by people. I went on carnivore and everything got solved. Well, these measurements do indeed confirm something they increase. They confirm increased fat oxidation. They might even confirm that you have um, eliminated something that didn't work for you and then you just never added, added back the things that do. That's fine, that's cool.

Philip Pape: 18:42

You start where you're at, but they don't predict better fat loss outcomes. They're measuring individual, independent aspects of the process rather than the result. And once you see that they don't actually produce fat loss and you reverse engineer it, you say maybe it's not necessary to focus on fat oxidation. In the end, what I actually focus on is measuring and tracking progress toward the end goal by optimizing the process. For that you know my change in body composition over time, your, your, your trend, weight, your measurements, your photos, your, maybe even body fat.

Philip Pape: 19:14

I'm not a big fan of measuring body fat, but there are ways to do body fat trends that are helpful. Um, has your strength gone up or down? Have you? How are your energy levels, your hunger, your well-being? And yeah, these are outcomes. And by outcome I don't just mean at the end of the day, did you lose 20 pounds six months from now, I mean all the things that come from your day-to-day actions in optimizing the process. Are you adherent to your calorie and protein targets? That is an outcome of the process of being consistent in hitting your targets. So, anyway, I can go on, but I think it's important to understand that difference Fat burning, fat loss two different things.

Philip Pape: 19:51

And this gives you more freedom once you understand that, with your nutrition, with your training or with your new training, just kidding. And that's what matters, right, what matters is your energy deficit. It makes it simple. It actually makes it really simple, and I'm kind of hitting again on some of the messages from the last episode which, again, I highly recommend listening if you didn't. But when you know that what matters is the energy deficit, it actually frees you in a lot of ways. It frees you with your meal timing. You could eat when your schedule and preferences match. You can include carbs I mean, that's the big one that comes to mind If you enjoy them, if they fuel your training, if you tolerate them absolutely. It informs your training.

Philip Pape: 20:34

You're not going to be choosing movement or training for fat burning. You're going to do something that supports your real goal, which is strength, muscle, athleticism, whatever, and then you can find a diet that works for you, not based on some metabolic theory that doesn't actually produce the results, it doesn't optimize for the result and that's much more enjoyable, in my opinion and they're going to produce better results because you're going to sustain them. That's what we're going for, right? The most optimal diet for fat loss is that one that you can stick with. I can say that to the cows come home.

Philip Pape: 20:59

Some people won't accept it. They want to cut their foods. They want to claim that fat adapted makes them superior in some way for fat burning, and it doesn't right. Energy balance is where it's at. All the other things are important for other reasons for health, for strength, et cetera. But today we wanted to talk about the difference between fat loss and fat burning, right? So, to recap, fat oxidation burning fat for fuel and fat loss, which is reducing stored body fat, are distinct physiological processes that don't necessarily go hand in hand. The RAND cycle look it up if you'd like explains why carb intake suppresses fat oxidation, but it doesn't prevent fat loss, because it's the energy balance that matters. Low-carb diets, fasted cardio they do increase fat oxidation, but they don't produce any more fat loss and some studies show they actually produce less.

Philip Pape: 21:48

For successful fat loss, you're going to focus on the factors that influence body composition over time. That's what's important for fat loss. Go listen to my last episode, the three plus three model of fat loss, for details. And then adapting an engineering mindset like we do here, means optimizing for the outcomes over days, weeks and months rather than optimizing for the process itself. The bottom line is that I don't want you to get caught up in chasing fat burning, because what's going to happen is you're going to do restrictive, weird, cult-like approaches. I'm sorry to put it that way, but you are. You're going to fall into a tribe. That's all about fat burning and you're actually not going to lose fat. And I want you to lose fat right. I want you to lose fat doing something that works for you, that feels great, that's good for your body, your preferences, your lifestyle, that's it All right.

Philip Pape: 22:32

If you found today's episode helpful, please take a moment to leave a five-star review on Apple Podcasts and be entered for a random selection of one winner each month to receive a free protein supplement of their choice. And it means a lot to me when people let me know what they think of the show, and it means a lot to others when they understand what they're getting into, for better or worse. Just go to Apple Podcasts on your Apple device, search for Wits and Weights, click ratings and reviews and leave your feedback. Takes about one minute, but it makes a huge difference, so I really appreciate it. Until next time, keep using your wits lifting those weights and remember, when it comes to fat loss, it is not about burning fat in the moment. It's about creating the conditions for your body to lose fat over time. This is Philip Pape and you've been listening to Wits and Weights. I will talk to you next time. Bye.

The 3+3 Model of Optimal Fat Loss | Ep 326

Download my free Nutrition 101 for Body Composition guide to implement these principles with exact calorie and macro targets:
https://www.witsandweights.com/free/nutrition-101-guide

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Tired of regaining the weight or losing muscle every time you diet? Sick of feeling like garbage during fat loss phases?

Today I'm breaking down The 3+3 Model, a science-based framework for optimal fat loss that separates what you absolutely need from what's just nice to have.

Learn the 3 foundational elements you must have in place for effective fat loss (the non-negotiables), plus 3 powerful enhancers that can take your results to the next level (the optimizers).

This isn't about suffering through chicken and broccoli or earning your carbs with cardio. It's about engineering a fat loss process that preserves your hard-earned muscle, maintains your metabolic rate, and actually feels sustainable.

Main Takeaways:

• The 3 Non-Negotiables form the foundation of effective fat loss

• The 3 Optimizers enhance your results once the foundation is in place

• Weight loss is not the same as fat loss – this model ensures you lose fat while preserving your hard-earned muscle

• A properly executed fat loss phase can actually improve your body's future muscle-building capacity through enhanced insulin sensitivity and nutrient partitioning

Timestamps:

0:01 - Weight loss vs. fat loss and The 3+3 Model
4:12 - Non-Negotiable #1
7:41 - Non-Negotiable #2
11:02 - Non-Negotiable #3
15:05 - Optimizer #1
17:55 - Optimizer #2
20:56 - Optimizer #3
24:36 - How to put everything together
27:42 - Why a proper fat loss phase improves future muscle gain
29:11 - Final recap and tips to implement

The Fat Loss Framework That Actually Works Long-Term

Why most weight loss methods fail

Too many people jump into a diet with good intentions, drop weight quickly, and end up looking and feeling worse: skinny-fat, tired, hungry, and frustrated. That’s because most fat loss approaches don’t actually prioritize fat loss. They just cut calories and hope for the best. That means losing muscle, tanking your metabolism, and almost inevitably regaining the weight (plus some).

This episode breaks down the 3+3 Model of Optimal Fat Loss, a framework I’ve refined over years of coaching, research, and helping real people get results that stick. It’s simple, evidence-based, and scalable. We’ll cover the 3 non-negotiables you need in place before any fat loss phase, and 3 optional optimizers that can take your results to the next level.

The 3 Non-Negotiables for Fat Loss

1. High Protein Intake

You’ve heard this before, but it bears repeating: protein is the cornerstone of a successful fat loss phase. Aim for 0.7 to 1 gram per pound of body weight. Here’s why:

• Preserves lean muscle while dieting (anti-catabolic)

• Reduces hunger and cravings (high satiety)

• Increases calorie burn due to its high thermic effect

If you’re not tracking your intake, chances are you’re not getting enough. Most people overestimate how much they eat. Start tracking and aim for protein in every meal.

2. Resistance Training with Progressive Overload

If you're not lifting, you're likely losing muscle. And that means your weight loss isn’t fat loss. Your body will only keep what it’s told to keep. Send the signal to preserve muscle by lifting 3-5x per week, emphasizing compound movements and pushing for progressive overload: more reps, more weight, more intensity over time.

During a deficit, you might not always make gains, but you need to train as if you are. That effort is what tells your body to retain muscle while burning fat.

3. Recovery

Recovery often gets overlooked, but it’s the glue that holds everything together. You can’t build or preserve muscle, control hunger, or keep stress in check without it. Prioritize:

• Sleep: Aim for 7-9 quality hours

• Stress management: Avoid overtraining, manage work/life stress

• Rest days and light activity (like walking)

Even a perfect diet and training plan will fall apart without proper recovery. Fat loss is a stressor, and too much stress means your body clings to fat and sheds muscle.

The 3 Optimizers to Enhance Results

1. Refeeds or Diet Breaks

Strategic refeeds (1-2 days at maintenance) or diet breaks (1-2 weeks) can:

• Improve diet adherence

• Replenish glycogen for training performance

• Temporarily support leptin and thyroid hormone levels

This is especially helpful for leaner folks or anyone experiencing mental fatigue or stalled progress. You don’t need them all the time, but used wisely, they make dieting more sustainable.

2. Creatine Monohydrate

Creatine is a well-researched, effective supplement to support:

• Strength and performance in the gym

• Muscle cell hydration (which may reduce breakdown)

• Cognitive benefits over the long term

Take 5g per day, every day, and let your body stabilize before your fat loss phase to avoid scale confusion from initial water retention.

3. Fiber and Micronutrient Density

Most people think about calories, protein, and maybe carbs. But if your diet lacks fiber and micronutrients, you’re making fat loss harder than it needs to be.

• Fiber (25-35g/day) improves satiety, digestion, and blood sugar regulation

• Micronutrients support metabolism, energy, and hormonal balance

Start by adding colorful fruits and vegetables, legumes, and whole grains (as tolerated). If you're afraid of carbs or plants because of what you saw online, reconsider. Real food works.

Final Thoughts

Most people start with hacks, gimmicks, or extreme diets and skip the actual foundation. The 3+3 Model flips that: start with what matters most (protein, training, recovery), and only then layer in the extras if needed. That’s how you make fat loss work without misery.

And remember: fat loss is just a phase. When done right, it sets you up for long-term success, better muscle gain afterward, and a more resilient metabolism.

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Transcript

Philip Pape: 0:01

Have you noticed how most people lose weight but they end up looking skinny, fat rather than lean and athletic? Or maybe you've tried to lose weight yourself and felt weak, exhausted, constantly hungry. You gain the weight back. That's because there's a massive difference between just losing weight and losing fat while preserving muscle, and most people get this wrong. Today I'm breaking down what I call the 3 plus 3 model. This is a science-based framework to simplify fat loss so it's effective and sustainable. You're going to learn three foundational elements you absolutely need for fat loss and then three enhancements or optimizers that can improve your results. It is about working with your body's physiology to shed fat while maintaining your strength, energy and sanity.

Philip Pape: 0:58

Welcome to Wits and Weights, the show that helps you build a strong, healthy physique using evidence, engineering and efficiency. I'm your host, philip Pape, certified nutrition coach, and today we're tackling a topic that confuses and frustrates a lot of people Fat loss, just fat loss in general, not weight loss, but specifically fat loss while preserving lean muscle tissue. Because here's the problem Most fat loss approaches or I should say weight loss approaches focus on creating a calorie deficit without any regard for body composition, metabolic health or long-term sustainability. Meaning, can you stick with this diet for a long time, and that's why so many people end up losing muscle along with fat, whether they're doing this naturally or with weight loss medications, and that tanks their metabolism. It ultimately results in regaining everything that they lost, plus some extra, and having higher body fat in the end. But it doesn't have to be this way. By understanding the science and implementing a framework, you can optimize fat loss for the results you want with less suffering, and that is what we're covering today with the three plus three model of optimal fat loss a way to simplify three things you must do and three things you can do to optimize. For the folks who are brand new to this, or even if you need a refresher and wanna do it the right way Before we get into it, if you wanna take a deeper dive into nutrition for yourself and set up your calories, your macros, your meal timing and all of that, I created a free guide that complements today's episode perfectly.

Philip Pape: 2:30

It's my Nutrition 101 for Body Composition Guide, again totally free, gives you a breakdown of how to set all this up, whether you want to lose fat or build muscle. Download it using the link in the show notes or go to witsandweightscom. Slash free to get a copy of that and many, many other guides, but the easiest way is to click the link in the show notes to get my nutrition one-on-one for body composition guide. All right, let's break down the three plus three model of optimal fat loss. And this is just a fancy name for a framework that I've refined through the years of coaching clients and studying the literature and making this podcast. So I'm hoping this ends up being kind of a definitive episode for hey start here when it comes to fat loss.

Philip Pape: 3:11

So what makes this different is it isn't just a list of tips. It isn't, you know, random workout recommendations. It is a hierarchical framework that distinguishes between what's absolutely necessary versus what can enhance your results. So, right off the bat, I'm trying to simplify it for you so that you don't get bogged down in all the confusion, all the information out there, and you can stick with what matters the most. So I've got two categories.

Philip Pape: 3:35

First, we have the three non-negotiables, and these are the foundational elements that must be in place for optimal fat loss. If you skip these, you are setting yourself up for failure, regardless of what else you do, and you will not lose fat. You might lose weight, but you'll lose muscle too. So that's the important distinction. Second, we have the three optimizers. These are strategies to enhance your results once you have the foundation. Some people jump to these first. Do not do that. Wait till you have the three non-negotiables in place. These aren't even required, these optimizers, but they can improve, sometimes significantly, the outcomes for most people.

Philip Pape: 4:12

So let's start with the non-negotiables. The first one is maintaining a high protein intake throughout your fat loss phase. Now, you thought I was going to mention resistance training, but honestly, if you can't get your nutrition dialed in early on, you're going to get frustrated when you start training due to some lack of energy or a feeling like you're not making progress building muscle. So, even though I often go on podcasts and say everyone should be strength training, that's the thing people are missing, I think.

Philip Pape: 4:42

When you are setting yourself up right now for fat loss from step one, one of the most accessible and important steps is increasing your protein, and that means consuming between 0.7 and one gram of protein per pound of body weight. You can go above that, for sure. There's diminishing returns above the one gram per pound, but I would try to get within that 0.7 to one If you're very lean, or if you're deep into a deficit, or if you're training really, really hard, you might want a higher end of that range or even above that. Or if you just love protein, you can eat more than that. It's fine.

Philip Pape: 5:15

But getting that minimum of 0.7 is so crucial during fat loss. And it's crucial for three reasons. The first reason is that protein is anti-catabolic. It is, of course, anabolic, meaning it helps build muscle, but it's also anti-catabolic. It sends a signal to your body to hold onto the muscle tissue you have when you go into that calorie deficit. This is why you often eat more protein in fat loss than when you're not in fat loss, and it sounds counterintuitive to people and it makes it a little bit more challenging to hit your fats and carbs. But it's so important for your body to tell it hey, go ahead and burn through your fat stores, don't burn through the muscle, right? Because we're trying to avoid that. We're just trying to burn fat.

Philip Pape: 5:59

The second thing is protein is very satiating. Research consistently shows high-protein diets reduce hunger. They increase feelings of fullness. Anybody who's doubled their protein knows this. When you're eating fewer calories in fat loss which is where we're trying to go with this, managing hunger becomes one of the most critical things to stick with the diet, and protein is your best ally here. Besides fiber, I mean protein is it? Third, protein has the highest thermic effect of feeding of all the macronutrients. What that means is your body will burn more calories simply because you're consuming more. Protein burns about 20 to 30% of its calories just to be digested and processed, compared to only about 5 to 10% for carbs and close to 0% for fats, and this gives you a bit of a metabolic advantage and it adds up over time. So, again, we want to get that protein up to a reasonable level before you hit fat loss, so that during fat loss it's much easier to hold on to muscle.

Philip Pape: 6:55

And you know I can't tell you how many times I've met people who thought they were eating quote unquote plenty of protein. And then they track their intake, they use macro factor or really any way to track, and you see that you are probably dramatically overestimating how much you consume. And if you think they're getting enough, just log food for a week and get back to me and let me know what you found. Also, don't forget about distributing your protein throughout the day. It's not, I'll say, required for fat loss, but it slightly optimizes your results. But again, this is not required for most people. They're going to want to have protein in every meal anyway, for the satiety, for the balance, for the blood sugar, for everything else. So that's non-negotiable Number one is get that protein up to at least 0.7 grams per pound of your body weight.

Philip Pape: 7:41

Non-negotiable number two, of course, here it is Resistance training with progressive overload. All right, this is the second non-negotiable. And that means lifting weights three to five times. I mean you could lift six times a week too, but at least three to four, but up to five times per week, with an emphasis, initially at least, on compound movements like squats, hinges, presses, pulls, tracking your performance and striving to maintain or increase your strength over time. Now you're going to be doing this at first not in a calorie deficit, but then, when you are in a calorie deficit, you are still going to intend and train hard to do this, to increase your numbers, even if eventually they potentially stall out because of the lack of resources. That's okay. You're basically giving your body the signal to hold onto muscle, whereas if you were sedentary and not training, your body is going to say, well, fat protein or fat muscle doesn't matter, it's all energy I'm going to burn what I need to burn to lose the weight you're asking me to lose.

Philip Pape: 8:44

Muscle tissue is metabolically expensive for your body to maintain when you're in a calorie deficit. Your body is trying to conserve energy right. It downregulates everything down to the cellular level, including your hormones, and it will happily shed muscle if it doesn't perceive a need to keep it. So for those of you thinking, ah yeah, I train, it's not consistent, whatever, I just want to lose weight, you're going to be in a world of hurt because you're going to just get skinny, fat, fluffy. You're going to have more body fat. That's not what we're trying to do.

Philip Pape: 9:09

Resistance training provides that signal that muscle's necessary and should be preserved. But it is not enough to just go through the motions. Please listen to me on this. So many of you are not training properly or hard enough or consistently enough. Progressive overload is the term we use. Whether you like the term or not, whether it's a misnomer, what it means is the continuous challenge to increase weight, reps and or volume. So something is going up that represents the increase in strength, and I say strength even though we're trying to build muscle. Hold on to muscle whatever. Ultimately, it's expressed through the ability to do more in the gym and that will keep the signal strong.

Philip Pape: 9:48

One of the mistakes I see people doing during a cut, during weight or fat loss, is reducing their training intensity. They think, well, I have less energy, so I should lift lighter. This is exactly wrong. It's exactly wrong. While you might need to reduce overall volume for your recovery, if your recovery is compromised, and that's okay maintaining the load, maintaining the intensity, the signal to your body, high enough percentage of your max is absolutely needed, because your goal isn't to burn calories during fat loss with your training, it's to preserve your muscle mass and strength. That is the main goal. We use the diet to manipulate the calories right, it's an input and output side of the equation and we don't want to become weaker and weaker and then we still have to eat less anyway. Plus, we lose muscle right, and I've had clients who were surprised to find they could actually gain strength while losing fat. And if you're newer, that's not unusual to gain strength, to gain muscle while you're losing fat, especially if you keep the deficit reasonable just by maintaining that training intensity and ensuring adequate protein intake right, your body is very adaptable when you give it the right signals. That's what we're doing. We're telling it to adapt in the way we want, not the way just on a whim. All right.

Philip Pape: 11:02

So the third non-negotiable is recovery. Now, this is a big topic because it includes, I'll say, all the other things that I work with clients on Sleep, stress management, hormonal health, and I find that these are even more individualized only because everybody's lives are so different that, compared to, say, training and food, these have a lot more variability. Compared to, say, training and food, these have a lot more variability and that's why it's important to personalize this. So what we mean by recovery is getting enough high-quality sleep, managing stress to a level that doesn't overwhelm you, that doesn't wreck your sleep Actually, they go hand in hand or wreck your cortisol, make it harder to lose fat because your metabolism is lower than it could have been. It's avoiding overreaching and overtraining by monitoring feedback like, um, I should say, soreness, right, your energy, how does it feel when you go into the gym and come out of the gym, recovery days, et cetera. Right, and of course it should be obvious why this is important.

Philip Pape: 12:06

But just to jump into the science of it, we start with sleep right. Poor sleep is going to dramatically increase your hunger hormone, ghrelin. It's going to decrease your satiety hormone, leptin. So this is a perfect double whammy for cravings, for overeating. You're going to seek out high energy foods with lots of fat, sugars, carbs and not the beneficial kind for you, generally very calorie dense foods usually, and then it's going to be harder to stick to your diet. Or you're going to be sticking to it with lots of willpower and then feeling very, very hungry. Either way is not great. So that's sleep right and the hours of sleep. There's a lot of research on that. It varies significantly by person. Usually you hear seven to nine. Some people can do okay as low as six and a half. Some people need that eight or nine hours of sleep. But then the quality is important and that's a whole other topic.

Philip Pape: 12:57

Stress is the other thing. Chronic stress and your perceived stress is going to elevate your cortisol. Cortisol is great signal for your body to try to hold onto fat, especially around your midsection, and so where's your body going to get the energy from Breaking down muscle tissue? So even if you are doing the other things, if stress is really high and you're trying to lose fat, you can still potentially lose muscle because of that stress.

Philip Pape: 13:25

And then hormonal adaptation is a real thing. That happens during fat loss, and it gets, I'll say, more exacerbated the longer you go or the more aggressively you diet, because your body's really smart. It's going to adjust your hormone levels to fight back against what it perceives as starvation. You know the effect of what you're doing to it. You're depriving it of resources to maintain where it was, and so something's going to have to give. So your body says you know what? Let's save some energy here, let's save some energy there. Downregulate your thyroid, downregulate your reproductive hormones things that aren't as important, let's say. And there you go. So proper recovery helps protect against these to the greatest extent you can, knowing that some of this is inevitable. No matter what, even in a perfect situation, you're still going to have metabolic adaptation from hormones.

Philip Pape: 14:07

The key here is, though, we're trying to mitigate those. So in all of these I would say, if you had to pick one, it would be sleep. It's probably the most underrated factor in the entire fat loss equation, even training and protein, because I've had clients who've made more progress just by improving sleep quality than any other dietary invention or modifying their training. Now, they're usually already training consistently and they're eating reasonably well, but the reason here is that the sleep directly affects your hormone regulation, which directly affects your hunger, your energy for your training and then your recovery, and it all viciously or beneficially cycles together. So those are the three non-negotiables protein, training and recovery. Those are the three non-negotiables protein, training and recovery. Those are the foundation for fat loss. Honestly, you could end the podcast right here, if you've never done this before, and focus on those. Pick one, start with it, roll in the rest, keep going. That is how I help clients in the first couple months of our journey together, before we actually go into a diet.

Philip Pape: 15:05

Okay, now, once you then are in your fat loss phase, or preparing for it, and you've done this before, or you've got the foundational habits dialed in and you want to optimize further, I'm going to give you three extra things to consider. Okay, optimizer number one is strategic refeeds or diet breaks. Now, a refeed is just usually a one or two day period where you eat up to your maintenance by increasing your carbohydrates. A diet break is just a longer period of doing that, usually one to two weeks or even longer. I mean, it could be indefinite and then you're just at maintenance. And these strategies while, yes, they do mitigate some of the hormonal adaptation to your leptin, your thyroid hormones, your reproductive hormones, those are just temporary. More importantly, they reduce your perceived mental fatigue, which helps you improve adherence right, be able to adhere to the diet, and they can help you restore some of your training intensity during that refeed.

Philip Pape: 16:07

We also see that research like well, there was the Matador study and there's also a study that Bill Campbell did that I talked about recently on the show called I think it was called the Weekend Diet. Look for that in the podcast feed, very recent. It suggests that again, not the Matador, but that particular study suggests that your lean mass preservation may actually increase if you use two-day refeeds every week, the catch being you're going to eat even fewer calories on the other five days to stay in the same deficit or you can go to slower weight of loss. So anyway, just to simplify this whole optimizer, think about whether you would prefer to have the same calories every day and that would help you be consistent and adhere, or if you want to have a little bit lower calories on the weekdays and come all the way up to maintenance on the weekends Great strategy. You want to learn all about it? Go check out my recent podcast, the Weekend Diet.

Philip Pape: 17:02

This can be really helpful for leaner clients who are pushing into lower body fat. This can be helpful for high-stress periods when adherence is a little more challenging. These are not cheat days. This is a controlled, structured approach that can be really important. Now that's refeeds.

Philip Pape: 17:16

Diet breaks is the longer breaks you might need. Like someone posted in the Facebook group hey, I've been dieting for 15 months. I've had these great results. Should I take a break? And my immediate response is just a yes, not even a well, it depends. It's kind of she's reaching out with a little bit of a cry for help, saying how she feels fatigued. I'm like okay, that's your sign. Let's just take a break. There's no reason to be miserable and suffer and push it for longer than you need to just to get to a number, when the more sustainable way to do that is to take a break right now. So that's optimizer number one is refeeds or diet breaks. Optimizer number two is creatine monohydrate.

Philip Pape: 17:55

Now, creatine is a supplement and I was hesitant whether this would be in here, because to me, supplementation is just the very tippity top 1% after you've done everything else, and very individualized. But creatine specifically is helpful to just about everybody for training and almost everybody might benefit long-term from cognitive health as well, according to the latest research. And it's very easy to do. Most people have no symptoms or almost everybody is symptom-free. There's a very tiny percentage of people who are actually allergic to it and then there's some people that just don't respond like 10 to 20% of people don't respond. But it's worth attempting, it's worth trying. And this is taking five grams a day of creatine monohydrate starting trying. And this is taking five grams a day of creatine monohydrate starting basically now and just continuing to take it for the rest of your life.

Philip Pape: 18:45

Creatine is supposed to support strength and power output and that could be even more helpful when you're in a calorie deficit so you can maintain your intensity. It increases muscle cell hydration, right. That's why your muscles fill up a bit at first and you gain a couple pounds on the scale of fluid weight, which is totally normal. But that muscle cell hydration can actually reduce muscle breakdown, catabolism, and might help preserve fat-free mass and improve your recovery during fat loss. And that's why I wanted to throw it in here, because creatine does all these things, it may give you an advantage during fat loss and then, finally, it may give you some advantage during fat loss and then, finally, it may give you some improved mental clarity during the cut, usually on higher doses though that's the caveat usually up in the 15 or even 20 gram range.

Philip Pape: 19:29

It is safe. It is inexpensive. It's one of the most well-researched supplements out there. If you're not taking it already, it is definitely worth considering, but do so long before you start your fat loss phase so that you can experience the bump in weight early. Let things normalize, get through any minor bloating or issues with hydration early on, because you should drink a lot of water with your creatine and kind of. Let it normalize and now you're in a good place to know where you truly stand with your maintenance calories to go into the fat loss phase.

Philip Pape: 19:58

And, by the way, just another shout out to the guide that I have, because this episode is not about, uh, setting up your fat loss phase. This is more about the foundational habits you need for fat loss, the actual numbers like how do you determine your calories, macros, all that. I call that the easy stuff, even though some people, people, reach out every day saying I have no idea what to eat for my fats and carbs. I'm like well, it's because you need to track and become aware and then know what your goal is. And there's a way to get that. So download my guide attached to this episode, the Nutrition 101. That will walk you through those.

Philip Pape: 20:32

Today is the non-negotiables and the optimizers. Okay, optimizer number three fiber and micronutrient density. And I left this for last so that you remember it in your head as this podcast will wrap up afterward. It's the most fresh thing in your mind of the optimizers. So this third optimizer is getting enough fiber intake and micronutrient density in your diet.

Philip Pape: 20:56

Okay, and I'm sorry, carnivore and low carb folks, you are not optimizing for fat loss or for long-term health, longevity or performance on a extremely low carb diet generally and I say generally because the vast majority of people will improve, not in those restrictive diets. A tiny percentage of people might thrive on those diets because they have all sorts of intolerances or inflammation from eating those foods. But I'm saying in general that if you are fearful of consuming fiber or vegetables or plants, don't be. Don't be fearful for any of the claims you hear on social media. Don't avoid them just for that reason, avoid them, because it would make sense for you. If that makes sense, all right. So what does this look like? I would say females consuming at least 25 grams of fiber, males consuming 30 to 35 grams of fiber a day, keeping in mind that that gets more challenging when you're in fat loss because the calories are lower, but it also becomes even more effective and helpful in doing so.

Philip Pape: 22:00

Now let's talk about how and then why. So the how is just filling your plate with colorful, high-volume foods, all sorts of vegetables, berries, even legumes, even whole grains. Yes, grains are fine if you can tolerate them. You know, being aware of the calories and the calorie density for your goal, fiber. So the why? Fiber promotes satiety, keeps you full, but it also supports smooth digestion. It reduces issues like bloating that can make a deficit feel worse than it is.

Philip Pape: 22:33

Micronutrients found in all sorts of variety of foods, especially plant-based foods and, by the way, I'm a big meat eater. I love my protein and animal-based products. I'm not vegan or vegetarian, but I love my plants as well, because the diversity is where it's at Magnesium, b vitamins, iron, potassium all the things that support thyroid function, your metabolism, your energy. Yes, you can supplement, of course. I mean vegans and vegetarians often have to supplement with things like B12. People on carnivore often have to supplement. In my opinion, everyone should supplement with magnesium, most likely because we're deficient no matter what you eat, given today's food environment. So if you can focus on nutrient-dense foods, it can reduce.

Philip Pape: 23:13

It can help with other things like food noise and decision fatigue, making your adherence easier. It can actually help with emotional eating and guilt and shame over foods. Believe it or not? Yes, it can, because what you're doing you're adding in things that make your body just feel so good and your digestion smooth and you feel full and satisfied on these whole foods. And this is in addition to the protein we already talked about. And, of course, fats are in there as well, naturally, as you're eating whole foods.

Philip Pape: 23:43

And when I talk to clients, they often report feeling initially hungrier after they go from a junk food type diet to a I shouldn't even use the word junk food. See, there's a label that we try not to use, but a food predominant with ultra-processed foods as opposed to whole foods, and then they switch to more whole foods, and that transition is important because you've got to give it a little time. What's actually happening is they're becoming more aware of their true hunger signals, because processed foods can mask your natural satiety cues the way they're designed and when you return to whole foods it's going to bring back your body's natural regulatory mechanisms. So do it before you go into fat loss. Again, a lot of this is prep work for fat loss. That's the irony of this whole thing is it is to make fat loss easier so that when you go into that deficit, all the things are dialed in to make it sustainable.

Philip Pape: 24:36

So how do we integrate all these components of the three plus three model? Remember the hierarchy. First, ensure you have the three non-negotiables in place High protein intake, resistance training with progressive overload, proper recovery. These must be consistent, and I'm going to say consistent every day. Obviously, you're not going to train every day and you're not always going to hit your protein. You're going to have some days that are less than others, but you want to do something every day for these. And again, training. You might only train three days a week, so the days you're not training, you're gonna focus on recovery in terms of getting enough sleep or walking enough, et cetera. But they've gotta be consistent. Then you're gonna layer in the optimizers as needed for your individual circumstances, your preferences, your biofeedback. Not everyone needs all three. I do have clients that don't take creatine. They're just fine, but they're nice tools to have in your arsenal.

Philip Pape: 25:29

And there's a few insights I want you to take away from this model that probably challenge the conventional wisdom. You've heard the first one. If you've listened to this podcast for any length of time, you've heard this. But if you're new to it, it's important. Weight loss is not the same as fat loss period. You can lose weight and lose muscle, which is not the goal at all. This is what happens when people go on Ozempic and they don't have any guidance with regard to training and protein and they just lose a ton and ton of muscle up to 30, 40% of the weight lost as lean mass or muscle. And so this model, this three plus three, is just a simple way in your head to say hey look, my goal is to protect against this scenario. I'm trying to lose fat, I'm not trying to lose weight, I want to look better, I want to feel better, I want a better body composition.

Philip Pape: 26:13

Second is you don't have to do traditional cardio to lose fat unless you enjoy it or you need it to create the well no, I shouldn't say it unless you enjoy it. That's all I'm going to say. Resistance training provides the extra, the stimulus you need for body composition. Walking provides the overall movement. Right, we didn't even really talk about that in detail, but getting your steps, walking, moving, is the priority when it comes to quote unquote cardio. And then only after that would I consider something like sprinting once or twice a week, if needed, if needed. The third thing here in terms of challenging conventional wisdom is that muscle retention is a skill, like many of the things we talk about. It's a skill, it's a process of personal improvement that's going to be developed over time.

Philip Pape: 27:00

Your fat loss phase does not have to feel like a collapse in your performance and health. It doesn't have to feel like a switch. When most people go on a diet, they think of it as this period of suffering. I'm going on a diet, I'm saying no, I can't do this, I'm not going to eat quote unquote bad foods. It's all these labels, morality behind it, judgment, guilt, fear, shame. But in reality, if you do it right, this can be an enjoyable process that doesn't feel like suffering at all, can be quite reasonably done, and you have to be patient, of course, but it's a strategically engineered period in a year or in a two-year period or whatever, where you're prioritizing fat loss.

Philip Pape: 27:42

Okay, the cool thing about fat loss itself, when you do it right, is it improves your body's future capacity to build muscle and maintain leanness. This is what I have seen and what I believe the evidence shows. When done properly, a well-executed fat loss phase, it yeah, it changes how you look, for sure, but it also rewires your metabolic machinery, for lack of a better phrase. There's research into muscle memory, for example. That shows that the neurological, the epigenetic adaptations from maintaining muscle during a deficit actually makes subsequent muscle building more efficient. You ever heard about that? It's pretty cool. Your body essentially becomes better at preserving and building muscle because you challenged it with fat loss the right way, and that's why I often see clients achieve their best muscle building results in the phase immediately following a properly executed fat loss phase. And if you have some excess weight to lose, I'm totally cool if you want to go with fat loss first, after you've prepped a few months for it, and then build muscle afterward, as opposed to because you know me, I talk about how everybody needs to spend time, at least once in a muscle building phase, but it might be best done after your fat loss phase, depending on where you're starting from. So we have things like improved insulin sensitivity, enhanced nutrient partitioning, optimized hormones. All of it will actually help in your muscle building phase coming up. So let's recap Three non-negotiables high protein resistance, training with progressive overload, proper recovery.

Philip Pape: 29:11

Three optimizers are refeeds or diet breaks, creatine and fiber slash, micronutrient density, and the overall picture here is we don't want to suffer. We don't want to suffer through bland, boring meals. We don't want to punish ourselves with cardio. We don't want to just cut out all these foods so that all we're thinking about are the foods we cut out. This is a physiological process that you can engineer to be efficient when you understand the requirements, and then you leverage what we know, the science that we know, and personalize it to you, and today's model provides you that approach to do that.

Philip Pape: 29:44

All right, if you found this valuable, if you wanna take your nutrition knowledge further, put this into practice and set up your fat loss phase, download my free Nutrition 101 for Body Composition guide. It expands on many of the principles we discussed today. It gives you the step-by-step practical approach to do it, and it also, I think, talks about fat loss and muscle building. Although if you're specifically focused on muscle building, go to witsandweightscom, slash free and get my muscle building blueprint. But if you're going to do fat loss, next, download the guide in the show notes for nutrition. All right, until next time, keep using your wits lifting those weights, and remember fat loss doesn't have to be a mystery or a misery when you approach it with intelligence and strategy. I'll talk to you next time here on the Wits and Weights Podcast.

The 98% Success Method to Go Alcohol-Free and Get Lean (James Swanwick) | Ep 325

Join Physique University (free for 2 weeks) to engineer your best physique using our science-based fat loss and muscle-building blueprint.

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Do you feel like alcohol helps you relax? What if it’s quietly sabotaging your fitness, sleep, and focus? 

I welcome James Swanwick, former ESPN anchor and founder of Alcohol-Free Lifestyle, and we talk about why so many smart, health-focused people still drink, even when they know it’s holding them back. James breaks down the hidden impact alcohol has on your sleep, metabolism, hormones, and mindset, and why willpower alone isn’t the answer.

He also shares how to reframe your relationship with alcohol using science-backed tools from his book “Clear” and his 90-day program. If you’re serious about building a strong body and a clear mind, this might be the shift you didn’t know you needed.

Today, you’ll learn all about:

2:07 – How alcohol became culturally normal
5:07 – One drink a day still harms your brain
9:42 – The smiling assassins in our lives
13:14 – Alcohol vs food: the real cost
20:29 – The hormonal and metabolic toll
25:50 – Why “don’t drink” backfires
33:02 – Rewiring your environment and cues
38:19 – When to try non-alcoholic substitutes
42:34 – A glimpse into the alcohol-free life
47:32 – Outro

Episode resources:

• James Swanwick’s book: CLEAR

• Alcohol-Free Lifestyle podcast

• Instagram: @jamesswanwick

Why High Performers Struggle to Quit Drinking (And How to Fix It)

You eat protein. You train. You track macros. You even hit 10k steps before breakfast.

But Friday night rolls around and somehow a few drinks sneak in again.

The truth is, you probably already know alcohol isn't helping. It hurts your sleep, tanks your workouts, and delays fat loss. But knowing that doesn’t make it easier to stop. Especially when it’s been baked into your lifestyle for decades—work dinners, parties, wind-downs after long days, and those smiling friends who hand you a drink before you can say no.

In this episode, I sat down with James Swanwick, former ESPN anchor and founder of Alcohol-Free Lifestyle, to talk about why smart, health-conscious people still drink—and what to do instead.

This isn’t about white-knuckling sobriety. It’s about building a better lifestyle, one that aligns with your goals, energy, mindset, and physical performance.

The 98% Method: Why Willpower Fails

Most attempts to quit drinking rely on willpower. But James explains that this is like fighting a battle with no armor. It’s not sustainable, and it’s not how our brains work.

The root of the problem? Your brain’s reward system.

We’re conditioned from childhood to associate alcohol with celebration, relaxation, and connection. It becomes so embedded in our identity that we don’t even question it. But alcohol doesn’t reduce stress—it creates it. You're drinking to numb the stress that alcohol caused in the first place.

And because the body prioritizes detoxing alcohol, it shuts down fat burning, slows metabolism, disrupts sleep, and alters hormones like testosterone, estrogen, and melatonin. Even one drink affects your performance, hunger, mood, and motivation for 24–48 hours afterward.

That’s what James calls “death by a thousand cuts.”

Why Your Fit Lifestyle and Alcohol Can’t Coexist

Even “moderate” drinking—the kind your doctor or friends might call harmless—erodes progress in subtle ways:

• It delays muscle recovery

• It stalls fat loss by slowing your metabolism

• It disrupts your sleep architecture

• It increases cravings for carbs and sugar

• It lowers testosterone and increases estrogen in men

• It raises breast cancer risk in women

• And it turns social events into environments you associate with drinking, making it harder to break free

Here’s the deal: you can’t optimize your physique and drink regularly. At some point, the tradeoff just doesn’t make sense.

So how do you actually stop?

James’s Alcohol-Free Lifestyle method uses neuroscience, habit design, and positive psychology to break the cycle. Here are a few key principles:

• Stop saying “don’t drink.” The brain doesn’t process negatives. Instead, say “I choose to drink soda water with lime tonight.” Tell your brain what to do, not what to avoid.

• Eliminate cues in your home. Remove the liquor cabinet, the wine glasses, the “just in case” bottles. Replace them with visual cues for hydration, health, and vitality.

• Reframe the identity. Don’t call yourself “sober” like it’s punishment. Say “I live alcohol-free.” Own it. Be proud of it. It’s not a limitation. It’s an upgrade.

• Practice gratitude. Write down 20 things you’re grateful for every day. This reduces cravings by more than 30%, and helps fill the emotional gap alcohol used to mask.

• Surround yourself with the right tribe. People who support your goals. People who don’t pressure you to drink. James calls them “smiling givers,” not “smiling assassins.”

And if you’re not ready to go alcohol-free forever, start with 90 days. But don’t just “survive” it. Enjoy the process. You’ll be shocked how much better you look, feel, and perform without it.

What to expect after quitting

• Better sleep (the kind that actually restores your body)

• More consistent energy

• Faster fat loss with less effort

• More visible muscle definition

• Sharper mental clarity

• Less bloating, water retention, and inflammation

• Higher self-confidence and drive

• Improved relationships and conversations—without numbing yourself

And yes, you’ll probably get better looking too. Just saying.

If you’ve built a strong foundation for fitness and health but alcohol still has a seat at the table, this is your chance to remove it for good—and get results that finally match your effort.

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Transcript

Philip Pape: 0:01

You want to cut back on alcohol. You've even tried a few times, yet somehow Friday night rolls around there you are, glass in hand, making the same old excuse about just want to relax, or I just enjoy the beer or the wine. What if I told you alcohol isn't actually helping you unwind at all? Today, my guest is a former ESPN anchor and the founder of Alcohol-Free Lifestyle, and he's revealing the neuroscience behind why smart, successful people continue drinking, despite often knowing better. You'll discover why willpower fails, how alcohol sabotages your fitness goals, even a little bit of drinking, and a practical approach to breaking free without depriving yourself. If you want to stop letting alcohol rob you of mental clarity and physical results, this conversation is for you.

Philip Pape: 0:53

Welcome to Wits and Weights, the show that helps you build a strong, healthy physique using evidence, engineering and efficiency. I'm your host, philip Pape, and today we're discussing a topic that affects nearly everyone pursuing better health and fitness, and that is our relationship with alcohol, with drinking. We all know that alcohol isn't great for our health goals, but many of us, especially high achievers, continue drinking regularly despite knowing better. And why is that? And can we approach this in a way that doesn't feel like deprivation? To answer these questions. I'm joined by James Swanick, a former SportsCenter anchor on ESPN, host of the Alcohol Free Lifestyle podcast and author of a new book, clear, which gives you a neuroscience-based method to quit drinking, based on root causes and not on brute force or willpower. Today, you'll learn why smart people keep drinking even when they want to stop, the false beliefs we construct around alcohol, how drinking affects your fitness goals and, of course, some tips to break free from alcohol without feeling deprived. James, thank you so much and welcome to the show.

James Swanwick: 1:54

Thank you very much. Great to be here, Philip.

Philip Pape: 1:56

So, rather than jump into the topic of why people drink, I'm curious about when alcohol became so normal, like, why and when did it become so normal in society?

James Swanwick: 2:07

It starts when we are little kids and our parents say to us or the adult figures in our life say to us oh no, no, little Philip or James, you can't drink now. You can drink when you're older. And so our parents or the adult figures in our life implant this idea that drinking alcohol is something to aspire to, it's a rite of passage, you get to do it, it's something to savor. I would submit that is a nonsense. It's just attractively packaged poison, but that's where it starts. Also, there's this conditioning that in order to create romance, in order to create camaraderie, in order to create celebration, we must have attractively packaged poison present, which, of course, is a ridiculous notion.

James Swanwick: 2:48

However, that has been passed forward through generations after generation, and now we're in this. What I submit is this ridiculous cultural society where we have just normalized drinking, this poison which, as you reference, can be so damaging. And I don't mean so damaging because you're waking up in a ditch or you're drinking excessively. I mean so damaging that you only have one or two seemingly innocent drinks per day. That can still be damaging, and I call that death by a thousand cuts. It's not the waking up in a ditch, getting arrested, doing anything too crazy, but over many years and decades it catches up with you.

Philip Pape: 3:33

Attractively packaged poison. I like it. Okay, so we know where we're going with this show. You know I want to pull on a thread there. When you talk about conditioning from a young age, I definitely see that my dad drank beer pretty much regularly, like all his friends and all his peers, and I drank quite a bit most of my adult life. What about cultures where it is not as aspirational and I don't know if those exist, like people think of France, kids start drinking from a young age, or whatever age, and it's not as taboo. Are there any differences there that we see, or is it pretty much the same thing, just at different ages?

James Swanwick: 4:07

I would submit it's the same thing. Different ages. I mean, there are some cultural differences where, like you referenced, in France, people kind of build this idea of connection and family we must drink this poison. But I'm saying you can build connection and family without drinking the poison. And you know, the French may feel like, oh, this is a great way to create family ties, et cetera, but at what cost? And that's what I really try to do in my book, clear, and what I try to do with my work, which is we're so focused on normalizing this alcohol and we justify it. Oh yeah, it's fine to give kids 15, 14, 15, 16 alcohol in France. You know, as long as they're not getting drunk, it's just a little thing, it's fine. But what we're doing is we're setting them up for a lifetime of drinking habits.

James Swanwick: 4:52

And again in 2022, there was a study out of the UK of 35,000 middle-aged adults which showed that even one seemingly innocent drink per night was enough to cause some level of gray and white matter destruction in the brain, in other words, some level of brain degeneration.

James Swanwick: 5:07

And yet, culturally, we hang on to this idea that drinking is fine. It's fine, it's fine, it's no big deal. I'm not an alcoholic. I'm not getting arrested, it's fine. It's not fine and all of the new studies are showing that like the, the strain it puts on our heart, on our our liver, on our sleep, on our gains that we want in the gym, the additional calories we're consuming that we ordinarily would not if we weren't drinking, which can lead to a loss of confidence, which can lead to craving more sugary foods, which can lead to overeating, which can lead to obesity, which can lead to irritation and stress and frustration. I'm trying to really articulate to people that the death by a thousand cuts are often silent cuts, invisible. You don't see them. But if we trace it all back, we can trace it back to starting drinking at age 14 or 15.

Philip Pape: 6:05

Yeah, and I would love the listener to come out of this episode even if they're skeptical or objective in terms of the cost benefit. A lot of people do the cost benefit trade-offs of any of this stuff. I mean, obviously nobody says here's a little Oxy, it's okay, here's a little heroin, it's okay. And there's a cultural difference in how we treat alcohol as a premise. Right, that we have to break through. But then if we could get to the point where someone says, look, even one drink a month is a problem and or here's the trade-off I'm making, that would be helpful.

Philip Pape: 6:36

You mentioned gains. That's like the key word, man, for everybody listening. They're like, okay, you got my attention. Now, james, let's talk about how it hurts my gains. But really I want to go back to why people then defend it, besides the generalities that we talked about, why specific people rationalize it even when they know that it's bad, and we're going to get into why it's not great and why it's death by a thousand cuts. But most people know let's be honest, right, and those in my community who listen to this podcast we definitely have talked about the hormonal impacts, the fat loss impacts, excessive consumption, sleep impacts, all of that. We'll get into that, but why do people defend it in your practice?

James Swanwick: 7:14

People have been using it to relieve themselves of stress and anxiety, and they become addicted to that way of relieving themselves of stress and anxiety. They become addicted to that way of relieving themselves of stress and anxiety. The irony is is that we're drinking it to relieve ourselves of the very stress and anxiety that drinking itself is creating in the first place, and then we get stuck on this vicious stop-start cycle. This vicious cycle we're also in our reptilian brain, if we go back hundreds of thousands of years and if you understand the concept of Dunbar's tribe. Dunbar suggested that we used to be in tribes of about 160 people when we roamed. The earth happened that meant almost certain death, because a rival tribe would kill you, or the saber-toothed tiger would chase you and eat you, or the bear would get you, or the wolf would get you, or you'd die of isolation somehow. Now the reality is in the modern world, we're not going to die from being kicked out of a tribe, but nevertheless, that reptilian fear that we have still exists, and so that shows up with oh, if I'm not drinking, my friends will kick me out of the tribe, society will kick me out of the tribe. It's this irrational fear in the modern world, a rational fear in the you know, years and years and years and years ago, centuries ago, but an irrational fear in today's world. So we keep justifying it because it makes us feel safe. We keep justifying it because it temporarily numbs us from the pain of being ourselves, because reaching for a drink is really only reaching for the pursuit of feeling something different in the moment.

James Swanwick: 9:04

In most cases, people with a drinking problem, let's say, are drinking to relieve themselves of an uncomfortable feeling. And so if you then remove this thing that they've been trained to go to when they feel discomfort of any kind, well what are they left with? Discomfort, discomfort, and that feels awful and unsettling, which is why people defend it so much because it does give them that temporarily, because it does numb themselves from the pain, because it does allow them to procrastinate on key strategic decisions in their life. And also, addition, there are smiling assassins all over the world, and a smiling assassin is someone who's smiling as they offer you a drink or as they're drinking with you.

James Swanwick: 9:52

It's the waiter or the waitress who says hello, mr Pape, can I get you started with a glass of 10 pounds of unwanted body weight? Hello, mr Swanwick, can I get you started with a bad night's sleep and some shame and regret in the morning. That's essentially what they're saying when they show up and they're like oh, hello sir, hello ma'am, I'll be your waiter tonight. I'll be your server. Can I get you started from the drinks menu. And then our friends are smiling hey, phil, can I get you a drink? James, can I get you a?

Philip Pape: 10:20

drink.

James Swanwick: 10:20

And they try to be hospitable hosts. That's very nice of them offering me a drink, but they're offering me attractively packaged poison, and so if everyone, as they're consuming this alcohol, is smiling and portraying this image of camaraderie, then the idea that you would stop drinking, unconsciously or consciously, means you are now rejecting the camaraderie, you're rejecting the tribe, You're rejecting culture, yeah, fear of getting kicked out of the tribe, hence commercials that portray huge parties and a grand old time when drinking.

Philip Pape: 11:00

It's interesting because, philosophically I don't know if you found this to be true in your life, not even with alcohol, but with anything it seems like the thing everyone doing, often not the, not the thing we want to be doing. Do you notice that? Okay, so there's a little carve out in there. I want to address, because people are going to say well, what if I'm the type of person who I drink one beer every three weeks and it's at home, by myself or with my family because I like the taste of beer, right, those kinds of? I'm trying to dig into some of the rationales people have and I'm curious about those.

James Swanwick: 11:29

If they're drinking one beer every three weeks, you know, candidly, I don't see there's any real issue with that. If you generally like the taste and you're drinking a beer or two every three weeks, that's not going to cause too many problems, from my research and from what I have read. But then the question really is are you sure that it's only three weeks? Are you sure it's every three weeks? And most people, if they're honest when they dig into it, maybe it's not, maybe I'm drinking a little bit more consistently than I would like to admit. In that scenario, philip, there's no real challenge, no real problem.

James Swanwick: 12:03

Long-term health consequences? Short-term, sure, because if you're drinking beer anywhere close to bedtime, that's going to compromise your sleep. And when you have a compromised sleep you wake up just a little bit irritable, just a little bit more fatigued, a little bit more tired. Your body stores a little bit more fat. You don't lift as heavy in the gym, you're not as motivated to go to the gym in the first place Because you're tired. You might then reach for a sugary food to give you a little bit of an energy boost. So ordinarily you wouldn't eat the chocolate bar or the muffin, but now you reach for the chocolate bar and the muffin, or the Gatorade instead of a soda water, and now you're drinking some more sugar and you know what I mean Like.

James Swanwick: 12:37

So these kind of things can really happen, and most people are drinking close to bedtime. That destroys your sleep. What you're essentially doing when you drink close to bedtime is clocking in for a night's work at a time when you are supposed to be clocking out from the day's work. Your body wants to be resting, it doesn't want to be working. So again, coming back to it, look, a drink on occasion here and there, as long as you don't feel like it's compromising your life, no problems. But be aware even that is going to compromise your sleep, which is going to compromise the following day.

Philip Pape: 13:14

Yeah, and I think people will compare. Sometimes they'll compare alcohol to say poor food choices. And I'm all about flexible dieting, right, like if you're eating 80%, 90% whole nutritious foods, then indulge in the rest, you're probably in the top 95% as far as diets go. But what are your thoughts about that when people compare the allowances they give themselves for that flexibility on the food side versus the alcohol side? Because I feel like there's zero benefit to alcohol, whereas the food at least has contextual benefit.

James Swanwick: 13:48

I mean, why are we negotiating with ourselves over this? Like, why are we still clamoring on how can I have a drink? Can I have a drink? I'll just drink on weekends. I'll just drink on special occasions. What is it about it that's so special? It's piss in an attractive bottle, like.

James Swanwick: 14:06

I really challenged this. The first time anyone had a drink probably you were 12, 13, 14, you had a sip or something. Did it taste nice? Nope, of course it didn't. I remember my dad gave me brandy and I spat it out. I went ugh. So it naturally doesn't taste good. We've acquired the taste as we've gone along again.

James Swanwick: 14:26

Why are we just so in love with this damn thing? Do you remember the movie raiders of the lost ark with, yeah, of course, indiana jones? You know in that in the first scene where he's got the idol and he's running away from the, the, the boulder, and then he kind of escapes the boulder but then the nazi is there with the tribes and then the tribes andmen are all got their bows and arrows pointed at him and he has to hand over, reluctantly, the idol to the nazi sympathizer and the nazi sympathizer holds up the idol and all the tribesmen quickly stop pointing the bow and arrow at indiana jones and start bowing down and saluting this idol, this golden, golden idol, and that enables Indiana Jones to make his escape. That's what we're doing with alcohol. We're bowing down and worshiping the idol of alcohol.

James Swanwick: 15:15

And I say why? I say why are we worshiping this false god? Because it's like a toxic friend. It doesn't want you to leave it, it doesn't want you to break up with it, it doesn't do anything good for you, it doesn't serve you. And yet you're staying in this toxic relationship. You're choosing to stay in this toxic relationship while simultaneously bowing down and saluting it. So we're frustrated by the consequences of the relationship, yet we're still, like in the raiders of the lost ark movie, bowing down and worshiping it. So just stop worshiping it, stop clinging to this idea like oh, but I can just drink on a special occasion. Why is drinking worthy of being referred to as a special occasion? The special occasion is health, joy, clarity, focus, a good night's sleep, great connection, fun, laughter, movement, connection, gratitude. That is the special occasion. And you can have a special occasion every damn day of your life, living alcohol free.

Philip Pape: 16:23

Yeah, I love it and I think, at least in my personal experience, the relationship with alcohol for me and I've seen this for a lot of people evolved as I embraced a healthy lifestyle elsewhere. Right, and I think that's at least those listening to this show. I'm hoping that you know this, this episode I can share with them to say, look, you care so much about lifting, moving, eating right, mental health, walking, sleeping. Why is this special, is what you're saying, and so maybe we hit on the top couple reasons, one you already mentioned, which is that we think it relieves stress and we think it's going to help us unwind, and it's even worse when we do it at night. But why isn't that the case? Why does it not actually relieve stress and what's happening physiologically? Yeah, well, it actually creates more stress.

James Swanwick: 17:06

And what's happening physiologically? Yeah well, it actually creates more stress Temporarily. When we drink it, it gives us this temporary, illusionary sense of relief Right, so it does provide this feeling of relief for a little while 20 minutes, 45 minutes an hour but then the consequences of that relief then create more stress and anxiety. That leaves you craving, wanting to then create more stress and anxiety. That leaves you craving, wanting to relieve yourself of stress and anxiety. And it's this perpetual vicious cycle. It's this merry-go-round that you just are unable to get off.

James Swanwick: 17:39

When we drink, the body straight away recognizes it as a foreign poison and the body then goes to work to try to rid itself of the poison. We're consuming toxins. The body doesn't like these toxins. The body's then saying how do I get rid of these toxins? So you're now putting undue strain, unwanted, undesirable strain on the body. The liver goes to work, the heart rate increases. That puts pressure on the heart. The enzymes liver enzymes go up. It also has us increasing our appetite. So we end up eating more food than we might ordinarily eat just because we've drunk a glass of red wine or a beer or a scotch or whatever. All of a sudden, because it's turning into sugar. It leaves our body going oh okay, I want more of this. Let me get more of this. You know, you haven't eaten carbs for a while and then you start eating carbs and then you just really desire more carbs. That's what happens.

Philip Pape: 18:39

Deprivation amplifies desire. Yep.

James Swanwick: 18:41

Yeah, and think about it Like you go to a restaurant and you sit down and you're trying to do a cut and you're trying to watch your calories, you're trying to lose some weight, and you say I'm not having the dessert tonight, no way. And the smiling assassin comes over and says oh, can I get you a glass of wine? Oh, just have a glass of Riesling or one glass of white wine. Okay, you're just drinking 300 calories in that white wine, same amount of calories as a donut or a packet of crisps, but more than that, because the drink now increases your appetite. Now, when the dessert menu comes over, the smiling assassin goes oh, can I get you some desserts, some cake? Would you like the cookie? And you're like all right, okay, who do you want to split it with me? All right, all right, okay, we'll have it after all. And then you have that cake half a cake, a few bites, maybe the whole damn thing. And then you get that cake half a cake, a few bites, maybe the whole damn thing. And then you get in the taxi or the Uber and you go home and you go to sleep. And then you wake up in the morning and you go oh man, I wish I didn't have that glass of wine and that piece of cheesecake last night, right, and now you've undone all the good work that you had.

James Swanwick: 19:43

So, look, it causes the body to go to to work. But you don't want the body to go to work, at least not in that way. You want the body to go to work when you're in the gym and you're looking for gains. You want to build some muscle, you're looking to burn so bad, that's when you want the body to work. But guess what a great night's sleep is where the repair from that work happens. But when you are looking to rest to grow the muscle, to get the gains, you're now saying oh no, we're not going to rest, I'm putting you to work again. The body's unable to do what you want it to do from the intention that you have from going to the gym in the first place so does it also impact hormones?

Philip Pape: 20:29

my understanding is that moderate, almost daily drinking does have a really insidious impact on hormones lowers libido in men, raises the risk of breast cancer in women, slows down the metabolism.

James Swanwick: 20:48

So if you're looking to burn unwanted body weight, for example, it's not going to happen if you're drinking, or it's not going to happen as effectively if you are drinking. You're just literally pouring more calories in and also slowing down the process. There's a couple of studies out. I'll have to dig in a little bit more into those studies but they found that one or two drinks the night before is enough to slow down your metabolism to the point of a few pounds a week. I'd have to dig into that a little bit more, but I know that your listeners here are particularly interested in lifting weights and gains and losing weight, muscle and things like that. So if, if you're if, let's just say, fat loss is your goal, that can slow down your metabolism enough to have you leaving.

James Swanwick: 21:33

Have you feeling frustrated that you're not losing as much weight? I'm actually on a cut at the moment. I'm tracking all of my food with MyFitnessPal and I'm walking 16, 17,000 steps a day at the moment and I'm trying to do like under 1650 calories a day and I've been tracking it. In the first seven days I lost a lot of money, not a lot of money, I'm sorry, a lot of pounds. Six pounds in in a week and then it kind of stalled and I got a bit frustrated. What's going on?

James Swanwick: 22:04

And then when I kind of dug it, I realized I wasn't entering a couple of drinks, not alcoholic drinks, but I wasn't adding electrolyte drinks and some coffee into the app. I was just putting the food, not the liquids. And when I looked at like the electrolytes how many calories and stuff were in the electrolytes, I was like, oh my God, there's like 100 there. And oh my God, the coffee there. There's like a 50 or 100 there, depending if it's a latte or not.

James Swanwick: 22:28

And all of a sudden I'm like, oh, that's two, that's 200, maybe 300 calories a day over seven days. That's 2100 calories. Like to have that? Yeah, yeah, at least that's enough for you not to lose that weight. So the same thing with the alcohol, right, not only is it additional calories, but it's the slowing down of the metabolism, it's's the disruption of the hormones your melatonin release. Melatonin is an important hormone for sleep that doesn't release in the way that nature intended it to release when you drink destroys sleep. So, yes, there's massive hormonal effects if you drink even innocent amounts of drink, of alcohol.

Philip Pape: 23:04

Yeah, people need to understand this because there's cascading effects. There's the stoppage of fat oxidation because the toxins have to be metabolized first. There's all of that and the last question I guess I have before we get into the neuroscience and then how we break this habit, because ultimately people are like, okay, now what do we do? Is there anything else you would put at the same level as alcohol, assuming someone is not smoking or taking drugs? Is there anything else you would put equivalent to alcohol or near it, or is it in a class of its own?

James Swanwick: 23:34

That's a great question. There's a couple of studies that have come out over the past five or six years, so just before the pandemic hit. There was a study that I referenced in my book, clear, which showed the damage and harm to individuals and the damage and harm to society and listed the whole lot of drugs. Would you be shocked to learn that alcohol is actually more damaging to society than cocaine? Like that's extraordinary. It's something like I have to reference the book a little bit better here. But there's like heroin, crack, crack, cocaine, meth, alcohol, and then there's like cocaine and things and it goes down from there Right and ketamine and things like that society either slightly above or slightly under consequence significance than meth and crack and heroin. Like crazy in terms of the damage to society. The fact that alcohol would even be close to heroin and the impact on society is astounding. And yet it's legal, it's on every corner. We smile when we consume it.

Philip Pape: 24:53

It's just because it's death by a thousand cuts and we don't see it so obviously in front of our eyes until years, decades have passed yeah, many people are opting into this and, like you said, even as a society we've opted in and I'm sure it's a function of scale too right, just the fact that that's the case, it means it's just pervasive everywhere. Okay. So if someone says, all right, I get it. It's not great, there's no benefits, it's a poison death by a thousand cuts. What do I do about this? I know you, you know in your book, which when we were, when we scheduled this, I don't even think it was out yet, and it came out pretty recently. I believe.

James Swanwick: 25:30

Yeah, it did. Yeah Came out in March of 2025.

Philip Pape: 25:33

Yeah, yeah, exactly Just a couple of months ago. So you definitely talk about the neuroscience there, dopamine and the reward centers and all of that. Where's the best place to start so that someone understands, like, how they're altering their brain and how they can then use that information to change their behavior?

James Swanwick: 25:50

Stop saying to yourself you need to stop, I have to quit, don't drink. Because the mind doesn't understand the negative command. It just hears the word alcohol. So a lot of us are walking around saying, geez, I need to quit, I hope I don't drink. Don't drink tonight.

James Swanwick: 26:14

And there's a bundle of nerves in the brain called the RAS, which stands for reticular activating system, and those bundle of nerves are like a laser seeking missile, which is it will focus on whatever it is that you are repeatedly thinking about. So if you are repeatedly thinking about alcohol, even if you're saying don't drink, need to quit, you're thinking about alcohol, alcohol, alcohol. So it's a lot easier for you to drink alcohol. It's harder for you to stop right. On the flip side of that, if you say to yourself what you will do, I'm easily going to drink soda water, ice and a piece of lime tonight. I'm easily going to walk up to the barman and say you know what? Give me a soda water, ice and a splash of cranberry. Now, that's very easy. The mind and the reticular activating system understands that positive command. We're telling ourselves what to do as opposed to telling ourselves what not to do. And when we tell ourselves what to do. It's a lot simpler and a lot easier for us to achieve and accomplish that very thing.

Philip Pape: 27:04

You know, I was thinking about how we're titling this episode and when I look at your content and everything, I think we start from the quit and the stop and the have to not drink alcohol, right, because that's how we reach someone who's thinking that way. I don't know if you agree with that, but like you see it in the marketing side, and then I imagine you have to then do the switch and say let's. It's kind of like I talk to people and they're like I've got to lose weight and I say, well, really we're not trying to lose weight, we're trying to build muscle and we're trying to add in nutritious foods and we're trying to add in protein and we want to.

Philip Pape: 27:33

So I love, that it's directly tied to our brain in that way. So what are your thoughts on that then? The language we use, the marketing, the whole kind of journey that people go through from the initial recognition to the switch.

James Swanwick: 27:48

People are always saying sober, sobriety, recovery, clean. We don't use any of that language. In our organization, at Alcohol-Free Lifestyle, we use the phrase alcohol-free, we're choosing an alcohol-free lifestyle. The name of my coaching organization is called Alcohol-Free Lifestyle and the key word there is lifestyle. It's the style of life, life. It's not needing to be sober and white, knuckling it and trying to be like sober, sobriety, recovery, clean, surrender to a higher power.

James Swanwick: 28:18

We dismiss all of that verbiage. It's been used for 75, 80 years and that's why aa, who really uses that language, has a seven percent success rate and a 93% failure rate if you judge success over long term. So we instead say we get to be alcohol free, we choose to be alcohol free as opposed to I need to be sober, I'm sobriety, I'm three years sober, I'm like three years sober means that you've probably been white knuckling it for three years, whereas we get to be alcohol free, I get to choose this lifestyle. That's the kind of verbiage difference and instead of using phrases like I need to, I have to, which feels very draining and heavy and tough and implies friction, we say I choose to, I get to, I want to, and it might seem you know, minor, a minor thing, but we arise in language, we are language, and so the subtle changes there can have profound generational impact.

Philip Pape: 29:18

Yeah, I totally agree. I think there's parallels with positive psychology. Not sure how familiar you are with that field, but it's only about 20 years old, right, where traditional psychology focused on the negative of the syndromes, of the disorders of our brain, and then positive psychology came along and said well, positive isn't the opposite of negative, positive is its own, it's its own thing, it's independent of negative. The more positivity we add in, you know, to simplify it, it crowds. It can crowd out the negative, I guess, is one way to put it. I see the same thing with nutrition or a fitness lifestyle. Right, we choose to train three days a week because X? Right, Because it supports our goals, and you then find out how you're going to change your schedule around that which then ends up getting rid of your Netflix binging here or your unproductive activity over here, whatever.

Philip Pape: 30:08

So I think that is powerful, james, I'm glad you brought that up because there's a lot to be said for language. So if someone's listening and saying, okay, I'm a casual drinker, right, I'm not speaking necessarily to alcoholics here, but I'm a casual drinker, I still think I want to drink because of the social experience. But now I understand why that's just a false belief. Let's say uh, I still love the taste of beer, or I still love the taste of wine or whatever. Again, rationale. What's the first step? Is it what they tell themselves, or is it coming up with a behavior that replaces it?

James Swanwick: 30:42

Well, first step is is identifying that you can have a better and more fun and a preferable lifestyle being alcohol-free and choosing alcohol-free. Once you believe that, then it becomes very easy to live an alcohol-free lifestyle. But while you are maintaining this, what I would submit mistaken belief that alcohol equals fun and not drinking alcohol equals deprivation and pain it's going to be very, very challenging, which is why these 30-day challenges are mostly ineffective over the long term, because people are going in there trying to get to 30 days, white-knuckling it, depriving themselves, and what do they do on day 30, philip? They celebrate with the drink and they return to the same level of drinking that inspired them to want to stop in the first place. So the first thing is trying to rewire the mindset, and this is what we do in our 90-day stop drinking process, which is called Project 90, in which we outline in the book Clear, which is we try to rewire your mindset, and that is taking it from drinking equals fun and pleasure and connection and romance, and not drinking equals pain and suffering and deprivation, to drinking equals pain and suffering and not drinking equals joy and ease and calm and relationship and romance and fun and celebration. So that's the first step. It's that mindset and that's why people come to us. We try to help them rewire their mindset around that.

James Swanwick: 32:06

And the second thing is kind of what james, who wrote the book Atomic Habits, talks about, which is setting yourself up to win with your environment. So that is removing the cues that gets you to drink in the first place in your home. So, for example, a lot of people have bottles of wine and a liquor cabinet and wine glasses and corkscrews and posters with beer things on it and all these kind of shrines to alcohol. My invitation is remove that, because all of those cues those visible cues are making you think about alcohol and so then you're more likely to go and drink alcohol. In other words, just get it out of the home. Now, this is not about trying to remove yourself from all circumstances in life where alcohol is present, because that's unrealistic. Alcohol will always be there, it will always be flowing, it will always be colleagues, always be friends, families, parties, bars, restaurants. But in your own home you can remove it right, get it out of the home and then replace it with visible cues of health and vitality.

James Swanwick: 33:02

I suggest to our clients you buy yourself a bouquet of flowers, whether you're a man or a woman, you put, you get glass mason jars and you strategically leave them around the house. So when you see the glass mason jars, you think about drinking water. You go and you fill up water with some purified water. You drink the water. The flowers are a visible representation of health and vitality and color and scent. Think of those flowers as your own body. The flowers need sunlight. The flowers need water, needs water replacing. Look at those flowers each day and go, oh, I need sunlight, I need water replacing. Let me go outside, let me go for a walk.

James Swanwick: 33:38

The other thing is there's a lot of studies that suggest that you can reduce cravings for any drug, including alcohol, by just having a daily gratitude practice. So a lot of the things that we do with our clients in our Project 90 Stop Drinking process is we have them for 90 straight days, write down 20 things that they are grateful for. We call it the Daily 20. And just that exercise alone living a life of appreciation instead of expectation, is enough to reduce cravings by an incredible 30% plus. In addition to that, the way in which you share with friends and family and colleagues that you're not drinking is more important than what you actually say.

James Swanwick: 34:17

A lot of people mistakenly think they've got to come up with some logical reason as to why they're not drinking. But there's a lot of studies of human behavior and psychology and influence that shows that to influence anyone, it's only 7% what you say and 93% how you say it. And how you say it is body language, tonality, pacing, facial gestures. So instead of going into a situation where someone's going why aren't you drinking? Instead of oh, I wish I could. No, I'm doing this 30-day challenge, I'm sober and you're implying that not drinking is boring and dull, instead you go oh no, I'm alcohol-free at the moment.

James Swanwick: 34:54

I'm like 90 days. I've been six months. I'm feeling pretty good. I lost a bit of weight, I'm sleeping better, I'm owning it and we can just relax and have a good time. You drink your drinks. I'll drink my alcohol-free drinks. Now, everyone can have a good time. So they would be some of the things that I would get people started with. And most importantly, I think, is just own the fact that you love being alcohol-free. Love it, feel good about it and people will relax and they won't judge you.

Philip Pape: 35:29

This is so good, this is gold. It's funny you were saying that because it works with other things. We homeschool our kids and sometimes you'll get a lot of cynicism from people like, oh, what are you going to do about high school? Oh, how are they going to get this and that? And some people try to defend themselves and we're like yeah, thanks for asking, like we love it because of this. So almost like toxically positive, but not really. I mean people will say I'm a positivity bully. I'm a big fan of reframing, like you just suggested. You also mentioned the cues, which works well for food as well. We talked about your food environment. We just went to Disney World and there's a lot of opportunities to see alcohol at different bars and restaurants and one of my kids said well, isn't that pretty? And I said what are you talking about? She said all the bottles up behind the bar. I'm like we do glamorize the beauty of it through the packaging, through the liquor bottles, the vodka right, you know what I'm saying when even my little 11-year-old thinks it's pretty.

Jerry: 36:25

I just wanted to give a shout out to Philip.

Jerry: 36:33

I personally worked with Philip for about eight months and I lost a total of 33 pounds of scale weight and about five inches off my waist.

Jerry: 36:37

Two things I really enjoy about working with Philip is number one he's really taking the time to develop a deep expertise in nutrition and also resistance training, so he has that depth. If you want to go deep on the lies with Philip, but if also if you want to just kind of get some instruction and more practical advice and a plan on what you need to do, you can pull back and communicate at that level. Also, he is a lifter himself, so he's very familiar with the performance and body composition goals that most lifters have. And also Philip is trained in engineering, so he has some very efficient systems set up to make the coaching experience very easy and very efficient and you can really track your results and you will have real data when you're done working with Philip and also have access to some tools likely that you can continue to use. If all that sounds interesting to you. Philip, like all good coaches, has a ton of free information out there and really encourage you to see if he may be able to help you out. So thanks again, Philip.

Philip Pape: 37:38

All of this is great. So, anyway, I'm just sharing some personal anecdotes Just to recap for the listener. The first thing you said was embracing this as a lifestyle, as a positive. Being proud, being positive, saying like being alcohol-free, is the thing I want to be. It's aligned with my goals. Of course I'm not ashamed of it. Of course I'm going after it. The second thing you mentioned was removing the cues. We just touched on that a little bit. And then the third thing being the gratitude Does that work for emotional eating as well? And the third thing being the gratitude, does that work for emotional eating as well? Because you said it in a study it reduced cravings.

James Swanwick: 38:10

So yeah, I would think. So yeah, cravings. Yeah, for any vice, but I mean, I'm specifically talking about drugs, including alcohol, but it can be for any vice, yeah.

Philip Pape: 38:17

What are your thoughts on non-alcoholic options? Because part of my brain says well, they're mimicking alcoholic beverages, with all the packaging and marketing to go with it, but they don't have alcohol. So what are your thoughts on those?

James Swanwick: 38:29

I think when someone's trying to rewire their mindset, initially in the first 90 days, three months, and trying to create a long-term mind rewiring, I would invite people to refrain from even drinking alcohol-free alternatives. But once you've got to at least 90 consecutive days alcohol-free and you've successfully rewired your mindset and now you get to have power over alcohol alcohol no longer has power over you that would be the stage where you could start introducing some alcohol-free alternatives. The challenge with drinking alcohol-free alternatives as a direct and immediate substitute for alcohol is that the correlation is still there. And so you know. You go there, say hey, can I get a heineken zero? Oh, I'm sorry, we don't have any. Any heineken zero? Oh, okay, let me have a heineken.

James Swanwick: 39:14

And so that association and that correlation is still there again after 90 days, assuming that you have gone through our process, you've rewired your mindset, you now realize that you get to be alcohol-free and that a special occasion is every day that you're alcohol-free. Then you can. I'm okay with that, I'm comfortable with that. But again, I know I'm repeating myself. People can convince themselves oh yeah, I'm just going to drink 0% beers. Well, what happens if there's no 0% beers? What are you going to do.

Philip Pape: 39:44

Chances are you're probably going to order a beer and then the slippery slope is very slippery I understand yep, because you're still seeking out something about that experience or taste or flavor that was associated with the alcoholic version of it?

Philip Pape: 39:55

yeah, that makes sense, I guess what you know. You work with a lot of people, so what would you say is the biggest in that first phase, that 90-day phase, the biggest thing that people do still struggle with? Maybe it's with the people around them. That's. One thing that comes to mind is just how you deal with your friends and your family, but what do you see?

James Swanwick: 40:14

What is the biggest struggle that people have when they're trying to quit? Yes, yeah, it's cultural conditioning. It's not a physical withdrawal. I mean, I know that that's a real thing for a small percentage of the population, like a chemical dependency, but for most people, who might consider themselves a gray area drinker, where they're not deemed bad enough to be an alcoholic uh, but it's bad enough that it's causing consequences, there's no real physical withdrawal. I mean, look again, I'm I'm not a doctor, but it's very much a psychological and habitual challenge that someone has. It's just they're so used to drinking this poison for years and decades and because they're unaware or uneducated or haven't tried an alternative lifestyle, it just seems so challenging and so tough.

James Swanwick: 41:03

And again, smiling assassins are everywhere friends, colleagues, staff, everyone. They're all smiling're all smiling. Hey, have a drink. That's never going to stop. It's going to continue for years and decades and even though there is a cultural change happening right now and people are increasingly turning their back on alcohol, it's not going to stop. People still smoke cigarettes today, even though we've known for three decades. That is not good for us, so it's never going to change.

James Swanwick: 41:25

So you know, you, we really got to get comfortable being alcohol free not comfortable, but like euphoric, that we're alcohol free and once we are, other people see that and more people get on board. Then our social circle becomes smiling not assassins, but like smiling givers, like that. They're giving joy, they're giving pleasure, they're giving experiences. And we're seeing that so much now, like there's a tidal wave of change happening across the world. Alcohol-free drinks have exploded. In australia, my native country, they have these like sunrise raves now, where there's no alcohol present. People show up an hour before the sun gets up and they have a dj and they start dancing, going crazy, and then they celebrate the sun rising or drug and alcohol free, and then they're going for a swim and a run and they're healthy and they're connecting on a health level and a human level, not on a drug-fueled level. So you know, once people can get over that kind of social kind of obstacle that they're fearing and break through that, wow, then life gets to be just glorious.

Philip Pape: 42:33

Do you find that people who then go through that? Is there a correlation with that and a health and fitness lifestyle, or a cause and effect, even?

James Swanwick: 42:42

Yeah, I mean, I haven't drunk since 2010 and I spend time with a lot of very healthy people and most of them either don't drink at all or drink sparingly. And, most importantly, alcohol isn't a necessity for social lubricant, you know, or for connection or fun. For example, a staff member of mine who works with me at Alcohol-Free Lifestyle, it's his 41st birthday on Monday and we're going out to a Japanese restaurant on Saturday night. I asked him who's coming. He told me and I thought about it. I went okay, yeah, yeah, yeah.

James Swanwick: 43:18

I think there's maybe two out of 12 people who I know will drink and when they drink they won't be drinking excessively. They'll have like a drink or two. But the other 10, 10 out of 12 people don't drink alcohol-free. And I look at them and I go. They're measured, they've got good conscious communication at least they appear to. I mean, who knows what goes on behind closed doors, but they seem like good people.

James Swanwick: 43:40

They're good morals, they're not prone to irritability, they're not prone to reacting. They respond versus react. They look good, they're in the gym. I see them working out, they go for walks, they get sunlight. The conversations that I have with them is about nutrition and weight loss and weights and mindset and conscious communication and trying to be the best father or mother and trying to be the best leader and trying to be a great colleague, like that's the kind of conversations that you have, and I always, you know, I often say that how you look on the outside is often a reflection of how you feel about yourself on the inside. And so just a warning you do get better looking when you stop drinking alcohol.

Philip Pape: 44:23

That's the selling point, man. That's so good. I mean. This is why I love talking to you guys on, you guys like you on the show, because it is infectious to be around folks like that who share those goals. It made me think, though, because you mentioned you mentioned cigarettes and I I was thinking about, like, the deal makers and people in sales and a lot of the high achievers you probably deal with, who do dinners, lots of dinners, or they go on the golf course or whatever. Is that culture any more challenging, because of just how competitive it is and the deal making and kind of all of that, or is this just a madman fantasy that I have?

James Swanwick: 44:56

I mean, I haven't drunk since 2010. I would consider myself a pretty successful businessman. I've done deals, hired people, done joint venture deals, generated millions of dollars in sales across two different businesses. I guess society might say, oh geez, that would be tough for you to do business because you can't entertain clients or you can't do deals, you can't soften people up with a few drinks. I've been doing it 15 years. Things have worked out okay for me.

James Swanwick: 45:28

And then this whole idea about the golf buddies and stuff and going to the clubhouse of the 19th hole I get it Like the culture's drinking. Let's go back to the clubhouse, have a couple of beers. Ho, ho, ho, how about that? Like eagle, you shot. Oh geez, that double bogey was a nasty one. Great, have one. Great, have all that friendly banter, but do it while drinking a soda water, ice and a piece of lime doesn't make you any less manly. In fact, it makes you more manly. Because, I'll tell you, drinking alcohol destroys your testosterone levels, especially beer. Beer's got so much estrogen producing crap in it. Men are like oh, beer, the irony, right? The irony is that beer is associated with masculinity and testosterone and yet it's a product that destroys your masculinity and testosterone.

Philip Pape: 46:12

And it gives you a big gut to boot over time it gives you a big gut.

James Swanwick: 46:16

yeah, a lot of calories. In fact, just on that, can you have a guess on which two alcoholic drinks generally have the most toxins in it in them? Drinks generally have the most toxins in it.

Philip Pape: 46:28

In them the most toxins, Mm-hmm, Is it? It's not mixed, some sort of mixed drink? It's?

James Swanwick: 46:33

red wine and beer.

Philip Pape: 46:34

Okay.

James Swanwick: 46:35

Most toxins. The least toxins is tequila.

Philip Pape: 46:40

It's also gluten-free. That used to be its selling point, yeah.

James Swanwick: 46:45

If you're going to drink tequila and if you're, you know if you're gonna drink that crazy dealer. And if you're, you know if you're gonna drink, drink tequila, that's the least bad for you, right? But worst in terms of toxins. If you measure toxins, red wine and beer yeah, no, because you mentioned the cigarettes.

Philip Pape: 46:59

And I know guys who everything they do is health focused, except they'll pull out a cigar, you know, every now and then to celebrate. Right, it's just celebrate, it's just the thing. It's just like with alcohol and the culture, all right, well, is there anything? I know there's a lot we could have covered. I wanted to touch on the main points of why we do this. You gave us a great framework for that initial transformation away, not away from alcohol, but embracing an alcohol-free lifestyle, embracing what it is to be a healthy person. Is there anything I didn't ask that you wish? You want to get out there for the listener.

James Swanwick: 47:31

No, I don't think so, other than just a call to arms, so to speak, which is, you know, like culture is going to want to keep you stuck in mediocrity. And in my view and this is my life's work the mediocrity is created through the drift, and the drift is created through consistent, socially acceptable drinking Socially acceptable drinking, but drinking nonetheless and I would just invite you to re-explore your relationship with alcohol. I write about this in my book, which is called Clear. It's available online wherever any books are sold. There's an audible version as well, where you can put me on two speed if you like and get through the book in four hours instead of eight hours at normal speed.

James Swanwick: 48:15

And, you know, start to embrace this new identity. Look, I get that. Not drinking is a threat to your current reality and your current identity, and the fear is that who will I be if I'm not a drinker? Who will I be? I won't be the fun guy, I won't be the romantic guy or the girl, I won't be the cool host anymore. This is such an identity threat and I get that.

James Swanwick: 48:37

But really, if you explore, what's it giving you, if it's giving you mediocrity, and you're stuck in the drift of life and you're meandering and you're floating and you don't like it and you've got less time on this planet than you've already lived. It's time for a change, and change can feel scary I get that. So I really acknowledge those who take the leap and take the plunge. And if you'd like more details, you can go to alcoholfreelifestylecom slash clear and that'll give you details about the book. Or just go to alcoholfreelifestylecom and there's some details there about our 90 day and year long stop drinking processes. And I'm on Instagram at at James Swanwick lots of free tips and tricks. And we've got a podcast as well Alcohol-Free Lifestyle. You can dig into that a lot deeper as well.

Philip Pape: 49:19

All right, so I'm definitely going to include all of those in. By the way, if you're Amazon Unlimited which I am you can get the book for free. Um, hopefully you get a cut of that, even those. I don't know how that works, but, uh, the the book clear your Instagram and also the podcast. We'll include all those in the show notes. And if you are looking to take the leap and get out of the mediocrity and the drifting through life, uh, this is the way to do it. Thank you so much, james, for coming on the show.

James Swanwick: 49:43

Philip, thank you so much for having me. I appreciate it.

How the "Weekend Diet" Accelerates Fat Loss and Preserves More Muscle (Strategic Refeeds) | Ep 324

Download the FREE Precision Fat Loss Guide to choose one of 6 strategies designed for your experience, goals, and lifestyle:
witsandweights.com/free

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What if shifting WHEN you eat could accelerate your fat loss results?

Most of us tackle dieting by reducing calories evenly each day, but research suggests there may be a more effective approach (and it's easy and even fun to implement).

Learn about a fascinating study that tested weekend refeeds against traditional daily restriction... with surprising results for muscle preservation and how your metabolism slows down during weight loss.

You'll discover how restructuring your weekly calories could significantly impact body composition outcomes, despite creating the same total weekly calorie deficit.

Maybe it is about calorie timing after all!

Main Takeaways:

• Traditional daily calorie restriction works, but research suggests strategic timing may offer muscle-preservation advantages

• The "Weekend Diet" approach maintains the same weekly deficit while distributing calories differently

• Targeted carbohydrate increases on specific days could help minimize metabolic adaptation

• Practical implementation requires careful calculation of weekly weight loss targets

Episode Resources:

• Download my FREE Precision Fat Loss Guide

• Try MacroFactor for free with code WITSANDWEIGHTS

• Link to 2020 study by Campbell et al.

• Previous episode: The #1 Reason to Eat More Carbs

Timestamps:

0:00 - Traditional dieting vs. the "weekend diet" (carb refeeds)
7:39 - Findings on fat-free mass preservation
9:23 - Metabolic impacts beyond muscle preservation
10:22 - Carbs, insulin, and muscle protein synthesis
12:02 - Anabolic signaling pathways
13:03 - Glycogen replenishment (training hard on Monday!)
15:44 - Psychological factors
16:38 - How to implement the Weekend Diet
21:32 - Leptin, refeeds, and hormones 

How the Weekend Diet Could Unlock Better Fat Loss and Muscle Retention

What if simply rearranging your weekly calories—not changing the total amount, not cutting more food—could help you keep more muscle and minimize metabolic slowdown during a fat loss phase?

That’s the idea behind what I’m calling the Weekend Diet, based on a 2020 randomized controlled trial by Dr. Bill Campbell’s team. This isn’t about crash diets or gimmicks. It’s a structured, research-backed strategy using carb refeeds on the weekend that may give you an edge in preserving lean mass while dieting—especially if you’re resistance training and already doing the fundamentals right.

If you're in a fat loss phase, lifting consistently, and wondering how to make it more effective without feeling drained, this might be a game-changer.

What Did the Study Actually Show?

Let’s start with the setup.

Dr. Campbell’s team took 27 resistance-trained men and women, gave them the same weekly calorie deficit (~25%), the same protein intake, and the same four-day-per-week lifting program. But they split them into two groups:

• Group A (Traditional Dieting): 25% daily calorie deficit every day for 7 weeks

• Group B (Weekend Diet): 35% deficit Monday through Friday, then ate at maintenance on Saturday and Sunday (mostly via increased carbs)

Both groups lost a similar amount of total body weight and fat mass. That’s expected, because the calorie deficit across the week was identical.

But here’s the kicker:

• Lean mass retention (fat-free mass):

  • Traditional group lost 1.9 kg of dry fat-free mass

  • Weekend Diet group lost only 0.2 kg
    That’s a 10x improvement in lean mass retention.

• Resting metabolic rate (RMR):

  • Weekend Diet: dropped 38 kcal/day

  • Traditional Diet: dropped 78 kcal/day

Less muscle loss. Less metabolic slowdown. Same fat loss. That’s why this approach is worth considering.

Why It Works: 4 Likely Mechanisms

1. Insulin’s anti-catabolic effect
   The high-carb days bump insulin, which helps suppress muscle breakdown. Even though you’re in a deficit most of the week, the weekend could help “reset” some of the catabolic effects of dieting.

2. Re-activating anabolic pathways
   A constant deficit suppresses muscle-building signals. A short break to maintenance calories may bring those signals back to baseline temporarily—especially important when you’re lifting hard.

3. Glycogen replenishment
   Carbs refill muscle glycogen stores, which improves your training intensity and potentially boosts the mechanical tension you’re applying to your muscles. Better training = better muscle retention.

4. Psychological relief
   Let’s be real: dieting is mentally draining. Knowing you get to eat more on the weekends (guilt-free) can make the whole process feel more sustainable. That alone might improve your adherence and long-term results.

How to Apply the Weekend Diet

Step 1: Know your maintenance calories.
Track your food and weight for at least 2–3 weeks, or use an app like MacroFactor that dynamically calculates it based on your data.

Step 2: Choose your rate of loss.
For most people, 0.5–1.0% of body weight lost per week is a good range. In this example, we’ll use 0.75% per week for a 180 lb person (~1.35 lbs/week fat loss), requiring a weekly deficit of about 4,725 calories.

Step 3: Break up the week strategically.
Instead of a steady 675-calorie deficit every day, do:

• Weekdays (Mon–Fri): ~945 calorie deficit

• Weekends (Sat–Sun): eat at maintenance
  (and bump the majority of those calories from carbs)

Example:
If your maintenance is 2,500 kcal/day, your weekday intake is ~1,555–1,600 kcal/day. Then on the weekend, you jump back to 2,500 kcal/day.

Step 4: Keep protein high
Stick with at least 0.8 g/lb of body weight (~145 g/day for a 180 lb person). Fat can stay around 25–30% of your calories, and the rest goes to carbs. On refeed days, carbs make up most of the added intake.

Step 5: Train hard, especially Monday–Friday
This method aligns well with a M-F training split. You’ll enter Monday with full glycogen stores and likely perform better in your lifts.

Bonus: It fits real life.
Most of us already eat more (or want to eat more) on the weekends due to social events, family meals, and less structure. Now it’s part of the plan, not a deviation from it.

But What About Leptin?

Yes, leptin—the satiety hormone—drops during dieting. High-carb refeed days have been shown to temporarily increase leptin, which may signal your brain that “we’re okay” and reduce diet fatigue or excessive metabolic adaptation. It’s not a magic fix, but another potential benefit.

Just don’t get carried away with the idea that two high-carb days will permanently reset your hormones. It’s more of a short-term adaptive relief.

Should You Try the Weekend Diet?

If your training performance tanks during fat loss, you’re losing more muscle than you’d like, or the mental grind of dieting is wearing you down, this could be a smart approach. The science is compelling. The strategy is simple. And it aligns with how real people live.

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Transcript

Philip Pape: 0:01

One of the primary goals of fat loss is to preserve your hard-earned muscle while you lose weight, and traditional daily calorie restriction absolutely works for this. But there is research that shows how a simple adjustment to the timing of your calories during the week can potentially take your results to the next level. So if you are concerned about losing strength and muscle while dieting or want an edge, this episode is for you. Today, we're looking at a study that demonstrates how restructuring your weekly nutrition pattern preserved significantly more lean mass compared to continuous dieting, despite both approaches creating the identical calorie deficit. We'll go over the evidence, understand why and give you a blueprint to make it happen.

Philip Pape: 0:59

Welcome to Wits and Weights, the show that helps you build a strong, healthy physique using evidence, engineering and efficiency. I'm your host, philip Hape, and today I'm excited to dig into a research-backed strategy that could give you an edge in your fat loss journey and that is strategically timed. Carbohydrate refeeds, essentially using your weekend, two days a week, to jack the carbs up so that you are eating at your maintenance calories, to potentially give you an edge when compared to having a consistent calorie intake throughout the week. Now, most of us approach dieting with that simple approach at first, which I think is a great place to start, and that is, you reduce your calories to create a deficit and you spread it out, so it's the same every day and then you do that week after week until you reach your goal, and this method absolutely works. But research suggests there could be room for optimization. And if you are in this camp of wondering how do I make this even more effective, today's episode might have you covered. Because what if restructuring the distribution of those calories throughout your week could lead to better muscle preservation and less metabolic slowdown? So today I'm looking at a fascinating study led by my good friend Dr Bill Campbell at the University of South Florida. He's been on the show several times, I had the pleasure of contributing to his research review and we go back and forth a lot on some of these topics. His study with his colleagues was called Intermittent Energy Restriction Attenuates the Loss of Fat-Free Mass in Resistance-Trained Individuals a Randomized Controlled Trial. So I know it's a mouthful. I will have the link to the open access full text of the study in the show notes. And what this research tested is whether a specific pattern of calorie distribution throughout the week could improve body composition outcomes compared to traditional daily restriction, and I kind of brushed this off because we're not brushed it off, but I'll say I brushed off the study and when I heard Bill talk about it on Karen Martell's podcast and it's from 2020, but it is worth revisiting because it still holds up and it's a very powerful potential conclusion for you to experiment with and see if it works for you.

Philip Pape: 3:05

Before we get into it, I do want to make sure you have access to my precision fat loss guide. This is a free guide I created a few months ago and I tweaked it a bit for today's episode to account for these refeeds. This guide complements everything we're discussing today. It walks you through the different ways you can set up your fat loss plan to make it work, based on your personal goals, lifestyle preferences and level of experience, and so it includes all of that. It also includes a whole link, a list of links to relevant episodes on fat loss, depending on where you're coming from. So if you want to download your free copy, use the link in the show notes or go to witsandweightscom slash free. Again, it's the Precision Fat Loss Guide link in the show notes, usually at the very top of the show notes. All right, let's look at the science behind this approach, and then we're going to talk about the potential mechanisms as to why it happened, why the results occurred the way they did, and then we'll talk about how to apply this practically to your own fat loss phase.

Philip Pape: 4:06

So the study in 2020 was published in the Journal of Functional Morphology and Kinesiology, and this was not a study on sedentary or obese populations. It specifically examined resistance trained men and women. So it's directly relevant for those who are tuning into this podcast and focused on physique development, body composition, actually losing fat, because, remember, the premise here is to lose fat. You have to lose body weight, but you need to do it while holding on to muscle. And if this concept is new to you, I have other episodes that will go over the basics. And, again, if you get my precision fat loss guide, the links at the bottom, at the last page are will set you in the right direction.

Philip Pape: 4:47

So back to the study. The researchers recruited 27 participants with an average of five years of resistance training experience, and it was a pretty simple and elegant design, I would say, in my opinion. Uh, participants were randomly assigned to one of two diet interventions, both lasting seven weeks. The first group followed a continuous energy restriction approach. That is essentially the standard method most of us use when dieting, where you have the same deficit every day, and they used a 25% calorie deficit every day of the week.

Philip Pape: 5:18

The second group followed what I'm calling the weekend diet. This is the premise of today's episode, which is you reduce calories more aggressively Monday through Friday so in this case 35% and then increase calories back to maintenance on Saturday and Sunday. And again maintenance. What is that? Maintenance calories are the calories that you burn and therefore, when you are eating to those calories, you're not in a deficit or a surplus, you're just eating to maintain. And the important thing here is those additional calories on the weekend came exclusively from carbohydrates. Now, when you do this in practice we'll talk about this a bit later you don't have to be so precise with having just carbs. Some, some fat, some protein might sneak in there, but predominantly it's from carbohydrates, and there's a reason for that.

Philip Pape: 6:00

And then both groups followed a supervised resistance training program four days per week. They both consumed the same high protein intake of 1.8 grams per kilogram of body weight, which is about 0.8 grams per pound of body weight, which is in the current recommendations for preserving muscle during fat loss phases. I usually give a range of 0.7 to one gram per pound. So it's right in there. And what makes this study extremely valuable is that both approaches created the same weekly deficit. So that is a controlled variable. It's very important that that is controlled.

Philip Pape: 6:35

The only difference was how the calories were distributed across the week. So same training, same protein, same weekly calories, different distribution, so that you can isolate the impact of that distribution as a variable. So what did they find? Well, after seven weeks, both groups lost a similar amount of body weight and fat mass. The weekend diet group lost 3.2 kilograms of weight and 2.8 kilograms of fat kilograms of weight and 2.8 kilograms of fat. The continuous or traditional diet group lost a little more body weight, so 3.6 kilograms, but less a half kilogram less of fat at 2.3. And statistically there were no significant differences in these measures. So our first important insight from this is that restructuring your weekly calorie distribution doesn't necessarily lead to more total weight loss or even more fat loss in the short term, because the basic principle here of energy balance calories in, calories out is still gonna apply. If you create a deficit, you will lose weight. So that's important, right, we're not throwing that premise out at all by any means.

Philip Pape: 7:39

But here's where the data gets interesting. When the researchers measured fat-free mass, which is all of the non-fat tissue you have, so that does include muscle, but it also includes bones, organs and water that's where the significant differences were apparent. So the weekend group lost only 0.4 kilograms of that fat-free mass. The continuous dieting group lost 1.3 kilograms, so that's more than three times as much lean tissue loss in the traditional dieting group. And critics might say, okay, this probably just reflects water retention from the higher carb intake, right? And the researchers anticipated this.

Philip Pape: 8:21

They then measured dry fat-free mass, which excludes total body water. So very, very intelligent here to do that. And the results were actually more pronounced when they did that. The weekend group lost only 0.2 kilograms of dry fat-free mass Very little to no dry fat-free mass, whereas the traditional group lost 1.9 kilograms of fat-free mass. So it actually is even more pronounced when you look at only dry I should say dry fat-free mass. I mean, if you just multiply it, that's 10 times better preservation of lean tissue if you're to use a multiple. But even just in absolute terms, it's close to zero for the weekend group and it's around two kilograms for the continuous group. It's a big difference, right? Two kilograms is almost a pound of fat-free mass loss, and so that is potentially, right there, a substantial advantage if your goal is to maintain muscle and strength during fat loss, right, instead of just looking at the fat loss piece of the equation, looking at the fact that muscle was very well preserved.

Philip Pape: 9:23

Now the researchers also measured resting metabolic rate RMR, right, a component of your total daily energy expenditure and they found that the weekend diet group had only half the reduction of the traditional group. Their RMR decreased by about 38 calories a day. The continuous group reduced by 78 calories per day. Now, neither number is huge in absolute terms, but we're talking only about seven weeks and I have frequently seen in my clients and myself large swings in expenditure, especially a drop during fat loss. If you could do anything to make that less, that means you could eat more food and lose the same amount of weight per week, or you can create a bigger deficit with the same amount of food, right? Either way it's an advantage and, again, both approaches are shown to be effective for fat loss. But the weekend diet strategy seems to have advantages, with preserving muscle mass and minimizing the slowdown in your metabolism, and that is huge. That is actually very huge.

Philip Pape: 10:22

So we want to understand why this is happening and if so, we have to look at the physiological mechanisms behind them. Why the heck would restructuring your weekly calories while maintaining the same deficit lead to such different body composition outcomes? The first mechanism, I think, involves the carbs and the insulin and how that impacts protein metabolism. When you consume carbs, insulin levels rise. I think many of us know that. Right, blood sugar spikes, insulin spikes, whatever you want to call it, and A lot of people think of insulin as a bad thing.

Philip Pape: 10:54

They think of it as in terms of fat storage, right, and in sedentary people it can be a problem. It's often associated with prediabetes, diabetes et cetera. But when you are building muscle, when you're active, when you're lifting, it has very powerful anti-catabolic properties. I had a whole episode on this in the past about the benefit of eating carbs specifically for that purpose, which is reducing the breakdown of muscle tissue, and it's because of the insulin. So during a calorie deficit, what's happening? Well, muscle protein synthesis is happening, but also breakdown is happening, and it shifts toward net breakdown right, greater breakdown than synthesis If you can strategically bump up your insulin with these carb refeeds this weekend diet. It might create this window of reduced breakdown that is more pronounced than the increased breakdown during the week from having slightly more restrictive calories and doesn't compromise fat loss. So your net shift for the week is potentially toward a little bit less breakdown of muscle. Okay, following me on that. That's the first mechanism.

Philip Pape: 12:02

The second mechanism is the impact of the continuous, prolonged energy restriction with the traditional approach on your anabolic signaling pathways. Because in extended deficit we know that it suppresses your muscle building machinery. We know this happens over time. It's why you start to lose strength, you start to lose muscle mass. It just makes it harder to maintain tissue. It's not the end of the world, right? That's why we use reasonable deficits and reasonable durations to minimize that. And you can still do that and have great results. But by periodically returning to maintenance, even for just two days a week, this weekend diet might temporarily normalize these anabolic pathways and give you a little relief from the opposite catabolic pressure that's occurring. So it gets you into I think Bill mentioned this phrase himself. He called it a neutral anabolic state as opposed to a catabolic state. Right, and that difference on just those two days again could make a difference for the week compared to the continuous group and you're taking a break.

Philip Pape: 13:03

The third mechanism is the effect of muscle glycogen. We know that, of course, while you're dieting, your carbs are lower and you are depleting your muscle glycogen more than you would if you weren't restricted. That impacts your training performance. It reduces your energy available for the high intensity contractions from our lifting. And then that lower training intensity simply means less of the mechanical tension you're looking to get on your muscles, which is the primary stimulus for maintaining muscle. Long story short, fewer carbs, harder to train is hard and get as much muscle stimulus.

Philip Pape: 13:37

And the weekend carb refeed effectively replenishes those stores. Right, it's like you're refilling the battery, whereas in the traditional approach it's always a little bit depleted. Well, now you're refilling it once a week and because it's on the weekend, most people train on the weekdays, right, most people, again, traditional kind of calendar approach and therefore you're really jacking up your fuel stores right before your first hard training session of the week, which sets you up maybe for more success and progress that if you're just constantly slightly depleted. And this this also brings up in my mind the idea that the weekend doesn't have to be Saturday and Sunday. You may have a shift type shift type job where you work on the weekends. It might be another two days of the week. I do think it's probably important to have the two days to be contiguous.

Philip Pape: 14:23

I'm not sure the study tried to compare that, but that would be my thought. Now, the study I don't think it directly measured workout performance, but it's probably an indirect result of what was going on. It is that replenishing the glycogen on the weekend supported higher training intensity and created better conditions for muscle preservation, leading to the last component which frankly underpins everything I just said, and that's the psychological piece, the mental piece. Both study groups maintained really good adherence, over 90% completion. But if you think about the real world that we live in, knowing that you can eat more on the weekends is probably going to improve your long-term compliance and I've seen this with all types of nonlinear dieting where the variety and the ability to eat more on some days it just creates mental relief and it reduces diet fatigue and that mental relief from having the higher planned weekend refeeds makes the process more sustainable. You can stick with it long term and, granted, that doesn't speak directly to the weekly muscle preservation and metabolic slowdown, but it does allow you to stick with the diet and it's a great reason to consider this anyway reason to consider this anyway. So that's, that's, in my opinion, the main mechanisms.

Philip Pape: 15:44

And notice, I didn't mention leptin in there. I'll get back to that a little bit later because there's some, I'll say, myths about leptin replenishment and how effective that is, but we'll get back to that. I want to talk about now how you apply these to your fat loss approach and make it practical. So the very first thing we always have to do during fat loss is prepare for it, and I'm going to assume you've done that. That's outside the scope of today's episode, but effectively, you've started training consistently, you're tracking your food, you're eating sufficient protein and you know what your maintenance calories are.

Philip Pape: 16:11

Now how do you know your maintenance calories? Well, you've been tracking your food and weight for at least two to three weeks. Now. You can do that on your own or you can do that in Macrofactor, which is my favorite app. It's the only app on the market that does this Chronometer, myfitnesspal none of those apps can actually estimate your expenditure and give you real targets each week based on that. So download Macrofactor from your app store. If you don't have it already, use my code, witsandweightweights. All one word for two weeks free and it's going to change your life.

Philip Pape: 16:38

But that's what you need to start with is knowing what your maintenance calories are. Once you know that, you can say okay, what rate of loss do I want to go after? For most people, a half a percent a week is really solid, but up to 1% of your body weight per week, which is kind of the upper end for most people outside of advanced populations that I work with, which might go more aggressively, but usually that's the max. And that's because you want to balance the meaningful progress right. You don't want to just take two years for fat loss, you want to do it in a fairly decent timeframe. But you also want it to be sustainable, mentally sustainable, right? Not just with the weekend diet approach we're going to talk about, but just in general the amount of calories that you eat and keeping in mind that the weekend diet approach is going to reduce your weekday calories even further. So you might not want to go as aggressively because of it.

Philip Pape: 17:29

So I'm going to use a I'll call it moderately aggressive number in here of 0.75% just to crunch some numbers for you and give you an idea of what it looks like. So let's say you weigh 180 pounds and you're saying, okay, I'm going to lose 1.35 pounds a week. And since a pound of fat contains 3,500 calories, roughly this translates to a weekly deficit. Okay, for the whole week a deficit of 4,725 calories, so a little over 4,700 calories. So instead of distributing that evenly, which would be a 675 calorie a day deficit, the weekend diet is going to concentrate that deficit into the five weekdays. So now you're going to divide that calories by five and that gives you a weekday deficit of 945 calories.

Philip Pape: 18:14

So if your maintenance intake, your maintenance calories, are 2,500 a day right, that's how many calories you burn, and if you ate that you would maintain your weight you would now want to consume around 1,555 calories during the weekdays. Let's round it to 1,600, so the numbers aren't too complicated. So you would be eating 1600 calories a day Monday through Friday, but then on Saturday and Sunday you jack it up to your maintenance at 2500 calories, with the increase coming primarily from carbohydrates. So if you do some math, it comes out to like an extra 200 something grams of carbs on Saturday and Sunday, which is a decent amount of carbs, and the resulting glycogen flooding your system. And so what this does is it creates the same weekly energy deficit as if you spread it out across seven days. But now you have these structured periods of higher energy availability that, according to this study, might better preserve muscle mass and metabolic rate, and potentially to a really nice degree. So for optimal results here, you are going to have sufficient protein, which is again about 0.8 grams per pound in this case, and for our 180 pound example, that means 145 grams of protein a day. Your fat is going to be pegged at some reasonable amount, usually around 30% of your calories, and then the rest come from carbs.

Philip Pape: 19:38

Now, when you go on the weekend side of the diet, right when the weekend comes around, you want to add in the extra calories from mostly carbs. But again, naturally, you might increase your fats and proteins, because a lot of the food we eat is a blend of macros, it's not just carbs. Now, granted, if you just add more rice or add more potatoes, you're going to have mostly carbohydrates, you know. Add more fruit. Those are the sources of carbs that I would generally recommend are whole food sources of carbs, but of course you can have some indulgences in there, like we discuss.

Philip Pape: 20:09

When it comes to flexible dieting, and here's the cool thing about the weekend diet it aligns really well with how most people live their life. Right, most people have the. They go out on the weekends, they have the social situations, the parties, the travel. All of that happens on the weekends generally, again, unless you have a different schedule, and so these higher calorie days are perhaps more enjoyable, more practical to implement. Because of these real world lifestyle constraints and because you've planned it in, it becomes even less fatiguing and less of a strain on your ability to feel successful, right, like every week is a win because you've planned in all this food. And, by the way, let me tell you, when you do this and you get used to your weekly structure and then Friday comes along and then you get to Saturday, it might actually feel like a lot of food to bump up those carbs on Saturday and Sunday. So that's where deciding how to do it and how to adjust your timing and meal planning appropriately for the Saturday and Sunday, treating them as different than the rest of the week, is going to be really important here. So the Campbell study did measure leptin I wanted to talk about leptin real quick leptin levels and they found that they predictably decreased during the diet in both groups, which is expected, and past research has revealed something about carbs and leptin specifically that I wanted to cover today that, I think, adds another dimension to this weekend diet If you think of leptin.

Philip Pape: 21:32

Leptin is your body's satiety hormone. It signals that you have enough energy coming in. It tells your brain I've got enough energy coming in and so I'm fine, I'm full, I'm satisfied. When you're in a diet, when you're dieting with restricted calories, the leptin goes down and that's what triggers increased hunger. It also is tied to your metabolic rate. You have an adaptive response we call it metabolic adaptation which is tied to multiple hormones, including thyroid, insulin, cortisol, et cetera.

Philip Pape: 22:01

But leptin's a very, very important one. It's the primary trigger for this adaptive response and that is why many of us have trouble prolonging our diets for too long, because your calories just drop, drop, drop, drop and you have to drop the calories along with them, or you just don't lose as fast when you think of carbohydrates, especially when you consume them in high amounts above your daily energy requirements. So in this case we're jacking up to maintenance which potentially is even slightly above your true maintenance at the moment. When you do that, we know that it can rapidly increase leptin on those days. And this is a temporary thing, right, it's just temporary. It doesn't permanently increase your metabolism or anything that some of the influencers try to convince you of with reverse dieting and all that. No, it's a temporary hormonal response and it might attenuate or mitigate some of the adaptive mechanisms from the dieting, from the energy restriction, even if it is just for a few days. But it gives you, yes, physiological relief, because the leptin is higher and you've got the energy flooding your system, but also mental relief from the stress of dieting.

Philip Pape: 23:06

And this is what it effectively does, is it turns your weekend into a, an advantage, and that's why I like this approach. And also, you don't view you don't view going higher on the weekend, like when you go out to eat and you have the appetizer and you have the dessert as this failure, as this all or nothing thing. You're actually optimizing, planning it in, structuring it in. It's pretty cool. It's not cheating either. It's not a cheat weekend Because you're not just going hog wild with unfettered access to whatever. You are strategically bumping up your carbs and, by the way, we do this in a very micro level. When we do rapid fat loss, we'll do like four days of very severe restriction and then one day of refeed, and again, we're not cheating on those days, we're strategically bringing up the carbs. So this weekend diet recognizes that your body's not just a calorie calculator. It is a very complex adaptive system and it responds to all the inputs how much you eat, when you eat it, how you move, how you train, all of it. And so we're kind of making this work with our natural rhythms instead of fighting against them, and so it makes it super sustainable.

Philip Pape: 24:13

I'm actually going to be telling, uh suggesting more of my clients consider this than I have in the past, specifically because I re-reviewed what the evidence has said and I think there is a lot of validity to this. So, to summarize, dr Campbell's research which again shout out to him for doing this work in his lab down at USF suggests that the weekend diet reducing calories more aggressively Monday through Friday, and then increasing carbs to maintenance on weekends, could give you advantages for preserving muscle and mitigating some of the metabolic slowdown. Remember, it's the same fat loss but it's more muscle retention. So, effectively, it's more fat loss, because now maybe you could go a little more aggressively and hold on to muscle and lose a little more fat, or you could simply stay where you are, eat more food, potentially have better training performance, better psychological adherence all of those things we talked about and it naturally aligns with most people's lifestyle patterns, which we're all about here. We're all about, like, making it work for your lifestyle rather than white knuckling it and pushing through.

Philip Pape: 25:19

So if you've tried fat loss in the past and you had, say, more muscle loss than you wanted, or your performance dropped faster than you wanted and or even just psychologically it felt like a slog, try this out. Right, try this out. It's the weekend diet. It couldn't be simpler. If you're using macro factor, I suggest doing it this way. I suggest setting the deficit to the Monday through Friday deficit and just distributing the calories evenly, but on the weekends, just manually increase your carbs. I think that's the easiest way to manage it in the app. Alternatively, you could use the collaborative mode to adjust the macros a little bit manually, which I believe you could also make it work that way. So, whatever works for you, if you're working with me as a client, I'll tell you exactly how to do it.

Philip Pape: 26:05

Anyway, last thing I'm going to leave you with is again download my free Precision Fat Loss Guide, and I'm asking you to do that because it does contain all of the possible flexible and creative approaches to fat loss that you might consider how to do them, the speed, the duration, who it's good for, who it's not good for, and they've got check boxes and Xs basically in these tables to tell you like this is probably the ideal dieting approach for you right now and then that can set you off on a chain of discovery and learning and setting up your fat loss phase for success. Just go to witsandweightscom, slash free, or just click the link in the show notes at the top to get your copy today. All right, Until next time, keep using your wits lifting those weights and remember that sometimes the smartest approach isn't doing the same thing every day, but finding the right rhythm that works for you. I'll talk to you next time here on the Wits and Weights podcast.

Why Perimenopause Fat Loss Feels Harder After 40 (Brooke Davis) | Ep 323

Get the other side of this powerful conversation on Brooke’s podcast ”Fitness Simplified,” where she interviews Philip on the muscle and metabolism side of perimenopause fat loss.

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Are you over 40, doing everything right, but the belly fat won’t budge?

You’re not crazy. Perimenopause changes your entire physiology, and the old rules no longer apply. In this episode, Brooke Davis, founder of Elysian Women’s Wellness and host of the  ”Fitness Simplified” podcast, joins Philip to unpack the real reason your body is resisting fat loss and how to finally reclaim your results.

Don’t miss part two of this episode on ”Fitness Simplified,” where Brooke interviews Philip about building muscle and boosting metabolism during this critical stage.

Main Takeaways:

• Perimenopause creates hormonal chaos that impacts fat storage

• “Move more, eat less” is outdated advice for midlife women

• Stress, blood sugar, and undernourishment stall results

• Muscle is essential for fat loss, hormone health, and aging

• Nutrition timing and quality matter more than restriction

Timestamps:

2:51 – Hormonal chaos and your shifting physiology
6:13 – Vital reserve and burnout from your 20s
8:33 – Cortisol, estrogen, and weight gain
14:20 – Blood sugar, insulin, and fat storage
15:57 – How to eat to support hormones
19:19 – Simple habits to stabilize blood sugar
23:12 – The truth about fasting and low-carb diets
29:02 – Carbs, cortisol, and unlocking fat loss
33:09 – Lifting heavy and building muscle in midlife
35:54 – Smart cardio and stress recovery
36:39 – Where to start without another “diet”

Get the other side of this powerful conversation on Brooke’s podcast ”Fitness Simplified,” where she interviews Philip on the muscle and metabolism side of perimenopause fat loss.

Why Fat Loss Feels Harder in Perimenopause and What to Do About It

If you’re a woman over 40 who’s doing “all the right things” and still can’t lose stubborn body fat, this episode is for you. We’re talking about the frustrating reality of perimenopause and how it affects fat loss, hormones, and your overall metabolism. More importantly, we're sharing what to actually do about it.

For years, you may have gotten results by cutting carbs, doing more cardio, or simply “eating clean.” But now those same strategies don’t work. You’re dealing with poor sleep, higher stress, energy crashes, and a body that feels like it’s resisting everything.

This is the hormonal transition known as perimenopause, and it’s not your imagination. Your physiology is changing, and so should your approach to fat loss.

Hormonal Shifts That Change the Game

Perimenopause involves a gradual drop in estrogen and progesterone. But it’s not a smooth ride. Estrogen in particular becomes erratic, rising and falling unpredictably. This hormonal instability can make you more sensitive to stress, impair insulin regulation, and increase fat storage—especially around your midsection.

On top of that, testosterone and DHEA also decline, which affects your ability to build and maintain lean mass. And since the adrenal glands become your body’s backup system for sex hormones, chronic stress can compound everything. It’s a hormonal double whammy.

Why Your Old Fat Loss Strategies Backfire

Back in your 20s and 30s, you probably got away with high-intensity exercise and low-calorie diets. But your body had more “vital reserve” then. In midlife, that same approach backfires.

Here’s why:

• Chronically under-eating leads to poor recovery and muscle loss.

• Too much cardio without strength training drives up cortisol and burns you out.

• Fasting and skipping meals may worsen insulin resistance and cortisol spikes.

It’s not about trying harder or having more willpower. It’s about doing things differently.

How to Support Your Body for Fat Loss After 40

Let’s get practical. Here are some of the most effective lifestyle and nutrition shifts that support hormones and metabolism during perimenopause:

1. Strength Training Is Non-Negotiable

Build muscle. Maintain muscle. Prioritize muscle. Resistance training two to four times per week can improve insulin sensitivity, stabilize blood sugar, and increase your metabolic rate. Use challenging weights, progressively overload, and train with intention.

2. Eat Enough (Especially Protein and Carbs)

Stop starving yourself. Most women are under-eating by hundreds of calories a day, which drives up stress and slows fat loss. Your body needs fuel to thrive, not just survive.

• Aim for 0.8 to 1 gram of protein per pound of body weight.

• Include fiber-rich carbs like oats, rice, beans, fruit, and potatoes.

• Don’t fear carbs—they regulate cortisol and support your nervous system.

3. Manage Blood Sugar with Meal Timing and Composition

You don’t need a CGM to get this right. Start meals with protein and fiber, add some healthy fat, and finish with carbs. Try walking for 10 minutes after meals to help shuttle glucose into muscle tissue. Little things like this reduce energy crashes and support hormonal balance.

4. Sleep, Stress, and Symptom Awareness

Sleep is the secret weapon of body composition. Track how foods affect your sleep and mood. Learn to recognize the difference between “I’m hungry” and “I’m depleted.” Support your nervous system by reducing caffeine, managing stress, and doing things that bring you back to center.

Why “Eat Less, Move More” Is a Trap

Women often double down on the “calories in, calories out” mindset when progress stalls. But if your hormones are out of whack, pushing harder will only make things worse. A better approach is to build muscle, eat more to fuel your body, and focus on quality nutrition, not restriction.

There’s a huge difference between being in a calorie deficit and being undernourished. The latter leads to more stress, poor sleep, and fat gain. The former, when done right, leads to sustainable fat loss with preserved muscle mass and better energy.

The Key Is Flexibility, Not Rigidity

Perimenopause is not the time to commit to another rigid diet or go “all in” on fasting, keto, or another quick fix. Instead, think of your nutrition and training as tools to support your physiology, not fight against it.

Start with muscle. Add in carbs. Reduce stress. Eat enough. Sleep deeply. Be patient. You can lose fat in your 40s and beyond, but it requires a smarter approach built around who you are now, not who you used to be.

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Transcript

Philip Pape: 0:01

If you're a woman over 40 who's been doing all the right things but can't seem to lose stubborn fat around your midsection, you're not alone and you're not crazy. The strategies at work in your 30s suddenly seem useless and no matter how much you cut calories or increase cardio, the scale refuses to budge. What's worse, your doctor might have told you this is just what happens after 40, without offering any real solutions. Today, I invited on a women's health expert to reveal why perimenopause creates the perfect hormonal storm for fat gain, why eat less, move more actually backfires during this life stage, and the specific nutrition and lifestyle adjustments that can help you reclaim your metabolism without sacrificing your sanity. Welcome to Wits and Weights, the show that helps you build a strong, healthy physique using evidence, engineering and efficiency. I'm your host, philip Pape, and today I'm bringing you a collaboration with Brooke Davis, founder of Elysian Women's Wellness and host of the Fitness Simplified podcast. Make sure to follow her podcast, because we're dropping two episodes simultaneously for different parts of the conversation.

Philip Pape: 1:15

Today on this podcast, we're talking about a very hot topic fat loss during perimenopause. What is really going on with your hormones, your metabolism, body composition during this transition? How to shift what you do your nutrition, your lifestyle, without quick fixes, without detoxes, cutting carbs, any of the other nonsense you might hear all over the internet today. Brooke has spent over a decade helping hundreds of women navigate midlife fitness. She's a certified nutrition coach, personal trainer, women's health specialist. She's done it all. She's developed protocols that address the specific hormonal shifts of peri and post-menopause to help women transform their bodies when other methods have stopped working. So today you are going to learn why the usual fat loss advice won't cut it for women over 40. The true non-negotiables during this phase and the best nutrition and lifestyle behaviors to support your hormones.

Philip Pape: 2:09

Last thing, before we get into it, if you want to hear the other side of this conversation, make sure to follow the Fitness Simplified podcast. Brooke is interviewing me on the muscle and metabolism side of this during fat loss for perimenopause. It's all. There's a lot of overlap anyway, isn't there? And that dropped the same day as this episode. So Fitness Simplified Podcast or click the link in the show notes. Brooke, enough of me talking, welcome to the show.

Brooke Davis: 2:31

Hello, hello, thank you for having me. I'm super excited to chat today.

Philip Pape: 2:42

So let's get right into the topic, which is why the heck is it so hard for women as they get older, whether it's because of hormones or something else? You tell us to lose fat, or perhaps you gain body fat. What is going on?

Brooke Davis: 2:51

There are so, so, so many factors, you know, and, as you mentioned, uh, hormones. That is one of the biggest things that is changing right. Uh, literally women's internal chemistry, that is changing right, literally women's internal chemistry, their physiology, is shifting majorly. Hormones that you know have kept us steady throughout our entire life are at a major decline, along with fluctuations throughout this time, and you know, a lot of women are like oh I just, you know, need to have more willpower, my metabolism is failing, things like that. But you know, the reality is that a lot of times, it's nothing that they're doing wrong per se. It's just that the things that they need to do now, versus when they were 20, do have to be different, because they themselves are different. They're like I said, their whole physiology is actually shifting in a pretty big way, and so those strategies that used to work don't really work anymore. Yeah, long story short.

Philip Pape: 3:57

Yeah, yeah, no, no, great, Please. It's good to get into these and I'm always champing at the bit with follow-up questions, because you said some really neat things there. One thing you mentioned and I want to pull the thread is things have changed. Your physiology has changed. The thing you did in your 20s isn't working. But let me ask you this honestly how many people are doing even the right things in their 20s? Because I want to set the stage and how are they getting away with not doing the right things? Let's be honest.

Brooke Davis: 4:18

Yeah, so, like you mentioned, most people in their 20s when you put it like that, they're not doing the optimal things. Right, they might do things that produce results in terms of fat loss, but they're not necessarily doing the things that are going to bring them optimal health. And you know this is why, like you said, there's a lot of overlap, because the reality of it is that the things that bring you optimal health in your 20s will bring you fat loss and optimal health in your 40s, but most people in their 20s don't care about optimal health, they don't care about the rate at which they get the fat loss results that they're looking for, and so what tends to happen is they're taking really extreme, really ultimately stressful measures you know, stressful on their bodies to reach the goals that they want. You know they're exercising way too much. You know they're usually it's high intensity, which there's nothing wrong with that. That's great when that's all you're doing, and a lot of it.

Brooke Davis: 5:11

They're under nourishing or under eating in general, and you know they're really not, like I said, focused on nutrients, not focused on nourishing their body. Everything they do is really extreme. So that is, I mean, the biggest kind of shift that needs to occur is that your body doesn't now, in your 40s, even honestly 30s, like I'm 34, I'm going to be 35 next year, so you know your body doesn't have the resilience for it anymore. And one of the things I'm a functional diagnostic nutritionist and one of our like kind of coin terms is vital reserve. And when you're 20, right, you have that vital reserve. Well, some people do, some people don't, right. But when you're 40, and you've been doing those things for, you know, 20 years, maybe stressing your body out, undernourishing, right, burning the candle at both ends, not getting enough sleep your body doesn't have the vital reserve to continue to function well, or well enough that you don't notice it in your 40s.

Philip Pape: 6:13

Yeah, there are some nuances there that I think are lost on some people. Because I wanted to ask it that way, because I can think of my 20s like I got away with a lot of things. Now I wasn't into fitness, I was definitely doing lots of weird diets, going back to Slim Fast and Atkins and all that stuff. That's how old I am. I'm in my 40s, so about 10 year difference. But it's like the thought that in your 20s the things you can do, your body just can mitigate them significantly, Like you suggested.

Philip Pape: 6:41

That's more resilient, the vital reserve. It's like you can get away with it and you learn these bad habits, Like you just end up learning or thinking that this works and that's the best way to do it. Uh, overexercising, like you said, under nourishing, which is a great substitute word for under eating, because then it implies it's not just about food in general or energy in general, it's nutrients, it's vitality, it's support of your body. And then what about? Let's get into the physiological changes? It sounds like there's a double whammy going on of accumulation you mentioned accumulated stress, for example of just bad habits, so that starts in your twenties and then the physiology changes on top of that. So maybe we focus on that piece of it.

Brooke Davis: 7:23

Yeah, so I mean hormonally speaking. Right, we'll start in physiologically and perimenopause, the first thing to go is estrogen and progesterone, which are, you know, our two main sex reproductive hormones, and so with that, progesterone is usually at a pretty steady decline, and that is what tends to kind of cause issues initially. And then what happens is the estrogen is doing this like along the way, so it's drastically increasing and tanking, increasing tanking, which is putting you into, you know, estrogen dominance, not zero estrogen dominance, and that is what causes a ton of the symptoms that women probably have the most complaints about, which is like weight loss resistance, the accumulation of fat around the belly, the hot flashes, night sweats, things like that are. Those are, those are the most common complaints, and that is caused by those massive fluctuations in estrogen. So it's not just about that these hormones are declining, it's that they're erratic and that in and of itself is really stressful on the body, as one can imagine.

Brooke Davis: 8:33

And then, on top of that, those fluctuations, quite literally, you have estrogen receptors throughout your entire body, from your brain, your joints, your muscles, and so every system in the body is then impacted by that. And then going into cortisol, your cortisol is, you know, you're against sensitivity to these things. Uh is really elevated, and so cortisol then is impacted. Uh, so your adrenal glands and your adrenal glands what a lot of people don't know are like your secondary sex hormone producers, so they're basically all you have left after your ovaries are done, which I think if people knew that, they would pay more attention to stress management, like going into this, because that is a major, major factor. And so those are, I mean, some of the main like impacted uh hormone systems and that go on during perimenopause.

Philip Pape: 9:27

Yeah, that's. That's really well described, because sometimes it gets oversimplified with like well, progesterone, estrogen, testosterone they all drop. Like okay, is it? It's more than that. What you talked about the estrogen erraticness, the scarcity versus the dominance and it's relative to the other hormones too is what you implied, plus the fact that your body's sensitive to estrogen. You know it's funny because I believe men are as well. But right, we don't have that variance. So we can't get what's going on with the ladies in this time of their life.

Philip Pape: 9:57

And then, of course, the downstream of cortisol, which cortisol is a boogeyman for lots of things. But what you're suggesting it's like downstream, it's an indicator of what is going on your HP axis, your adrenal glands, so it's all tied together and I like that you brought up symptoms as well, because I think that's a good source of biofeedback. And listening to your body of like okay, you've got the hot flashes, you're building excess belly fat, you're not able to lose weight, something's telling you and hope is not all lost, right, like it's not the end of the road. So, before we get into the like, what to do and more details, what about testosterone and DHEA? Where are they coming to the picture?

Brooke Davis: 10:32

Yeah, um, so testosterone is also declining, unfortunately. That's a. That's a big one. Dhea, right, that's kind of like uh, your again your backup, right, it's made in the adrenals and so that, um, the supporting your adrenal health and making sure that stress management is a really big part of really like as much of life as you can make it, from as early as you can make, it is really powerful, like I just funny backstory. So my grandma, she's 91 this year and she's been taking this supplement for like a really long time. It's called unforgettable, so it's like a brain health supplement. But I looked at it, I was looking at the ingredients and there's phosphatidylserine in it and that is a like cortisol, regular decreases cortisol in the body and I'm like and she was talking about how like menopause like really wasn't a thing for like it wasn't an issue. She's always just been like cruising a lot and she like she still has horses, she lives almost on her own, like she's very independent, and I was like I wonder if that's like your secret weapon, right?

Brooke Davis: 11:33

here, this you know cortisol management, grandma, like that's. You know how powerful that is and not that obviously that's.

Philip Pape: 11:39

It's not a causation, or you know to end the podcast right there and say call it action, go get your. Here's your affiliate link, by the way. Yeah.

Brooke Davis: 11:48

No, I don't, I don't sell that product but um, but no, it was just really cool Cause I'm like interesting Um so so so wait, is it?

Philip Pape: 11:56

is it acting? Is it acting like a nootropic or adaptogen kind of like Ashwagandha?

Brooke Davis: 12:06

Um, um, no, foster, no, it's just, uh, it just helps manage, uh, cortisol and, like I said, it just makes it less impactful on the body, right, and so it actually lowers your cortisol in general. But, um, so it's not actually indicated for everybody, like if you already have, you know, whatever adrenal quote-unquote, adrenal fatigue is that like, it may not be for everybody, so don't don't go run out and get your phosphat. Um, but it was just like, it just was funny that you know that's like a big thing and my grandma and my day and you've one-year-old grandma is like crushing it over here.

Brooke Davis: 12:31

So um but yeah so. So, dj, like I said, in the adrenals, the adrenal glands are really, really powerful and they are your backup engine basically to hormone production and, um you know, less symptoms through perimenopause. Uh, there have been studies to where, um, you know, women whose nervous system was more regulated, right, they were more in that parasympathetic state. They experienced less to no hot flashes. Um, throughout, you know, despite estrogen levels equaling and being the same as other women right At the time of testing, cause it's all erratic. But despite similar estrogen levels equaling and being the same as other women right At the time of testing, cause, it's all erratic. But despite similar estrogen levels at the time of testing, women who, uh, you know, said that they were in you know more of a person, but they said they had a better HRB, that kind of thing. They actually had less, uh, like Bixomotor motor symptoms than the other groups. So it's really, really powerful.

Philip Pape: 13:28

Yeah, it always. All roads seem to lead to stress, no matter who I talk to, having been in this business myself, and there's a lot of angles to it. Right, there's a lot of ways to attack the ultimate getting into that nervous system state you want to be in. Do you watch TV, like, have you seen the new White Lotus? Do you watch that show at all? Okay, so in the latest season, um, they go to this meditation center and there's like a monk, basically I don't know if it's Tibetan, but this is in Thailand, I think. And it made me think like if we were just out of civilization in general and back to, like hunter gatherers, just living the life, the stress would be so much lower. Right, like that's the root of all our problems.

Philip Pape: 14:02

Anyway, I think that's not like let's just get rid of it, all, right, but you mentioned so cortisol, and then there's insulin, right. So there's a connection there. I don't know if you had mentioned it yet, but maybe we get into that. Then I want to ask about HRT, and then, finally, let's get into lifestyle. So insulin, yeah.

Brooke Davis: 14:20

Yeah, so insulin regulation is a it's really disrupted. You become more insulin resistant during perimenopause simply because of the hormonal shifts estrogen, progesterone, cortisol that impacts your blood sugar. So you know throughout that that is definitely one like really simple shift that women can make. I don't know if we're gonna get into that yet, but that is. You know, insulin resistance leads to metabolic disease. That is part of, you know, the decline of metabolism in the system overall, and so that is absolutely a consideration during perimenopause that can be addressed really easily with nutrition and lifestyle.

Philip Pape: 14:58

Yeah, so you're such a tease Like what is the super secret sauce to doing it? And actually, before we do that, is it HRT.

Brooke Davis: 15:05

No no. Um yeah, no, uh, I mean it. It can potentially help for sure, but yeah, as far as you know, nutrition, I don't, I don't want to take your, your glory, that's on, that's what your podcast, but muscle there's overlap, there's lots of overlap.

Philip Pape: 15:20

It's all good Jump into it, you can't just separate them. You can't separate them.

Brooke Davis: 15:23

First and foremost is muscle Um. The more muscle you have, um you know, the less impact all of that is going to have on the body. Um more you know glycogen gets shuttled into the muscles, the less um insulin sensitivity. Um. So, as far as um nutrition goes, managing blood sugar, making sure that you have balanced meals, first of all, um making sure that you know each meal starts with a fiber fat, um, and then ideally going to protein and then your carbohydrates, so, um that slows down the digestion and reduces the impact on blood sugar.

Philip Pape: 15:57

Um, okay, hold on, let's. Let's break it down for people. Let's do blood sugar, cause there's there's a lot of misinformation about blood sugar. Yeah, a lot of CGM stuff out there as well, like the, the glucose monitors, for better or worse. There it's a tool, uh, and I just had actually Christina McClurkin was just on recently. You know her from our group as well, yeah.

Carol: 16:15

Right and blood sugar is like one of her pillars.

Philip Pape: 16:17

There we go. Yeah, so we all understand the value of fiber and stuff, but you just said um start with a fiber. I think you said fiber and then fat and then protein and then vegetable or carbs. Is that like the sequence of building your plate you're thinking, or the sequence of how you eat with your plate? What are you referring to?

Brooke Davis: 16:34

How you eat. I mean, you could do it to build your plate as well. Uh, absolutely, but yeah, the order in which you actually eat your food.

Philip Pape: 16:41

Good, okay, sequencing, yep, cool.

Brooke Davis: 16:44

Yes.

Philip Pape: 16:44

All right, all right, continue. I just wanted to touch on the blood sugar piece.

Brooke Davis: 16:49

Blood sugar. Okay. So, yes, the order in which. And then, of course, making sure that overall, I mean, you're not eating a ton of processed sugar, processed carbohydrates. That is like, first and foremost, that I tend to skip that because I'm like that's a given right, but it's not. So you know, reducing sugar, reducing added sugars, even if you have, you know fruits are, generally speaking, okay If you have, you know, type two, whatever type one, diabetes or whatever already, then that is something you want to manage and make sure that, even you know, with your fruit, maybe everyone is different and this is the crazy thing, like there have been studies to where you know one person might react to a sweet potato, you know their, their blood sugar might go through the roof and another person might be totally fine, like that, they don't have that much of an impact.

Brooke Davis: 17:32

So that is one reason where one one time, uh, or one reason why CGMs can actually be really powerful, continuous glucose monitors for those who are familiar with that. But because you know, and it's not only food that spikes your blood sugar, uh, stress, right, periods of stress, if cortisol is being pumped in your system, then you know that can impact your blood sugar. And so managing that first and foremost? Uh, but that is where, like I said, if you have access to a CGM, I really think and especially through premenopause, it's just data not to confuse the fact that your blood sugar should stay in a straight line all day long. No, but there may be things impacting your blood sugar that you don't realize, that do have more of an effect on you than even other people. So that can absolutely be a powerful tool just for information and making you know small shifts that help support your body.

Philip Pape: 18:29

But why is it? Why is blood sugar important?

Brooke Davis: 18:32

I mean it's stress on the body is the reality of it, and the more you know your body has to work to produce insulin, to regulate it. It's just having to work overtime.

Philip Pape: 18:43

Okay, that's a good one. I'm glad you said that, because a lot of people have a different angle they come to when they talk about blood sugar. For some people, it is the insulin where I think that's overplayed if you're lifting, if you're living the right lifestyle, and others say it's the energy crashes. But I think that's because of the inconsistency in your cortisol, which is your stress, and what you're implying is that, overall, you're saying that chronic stress can be pushed up if you have erratic blood sugar. Is that right? Yeah, important, important to know, like, like all the different things that cause it. It's the same thing with, like, inconsistent sleep and wake times and inconsistent eating patterns, and so your body wants to be safe and secure and that's one way to do it. Okay.

Brooke Davis: 19:19

Yeah, yeah, a hundred percent. Um, and, like you mentioned, like, yes, energy levels, um, cravings, for sure you know, for fast energy if your blood sugar is spiking and then tanking. So I mean, those are all. Again, it's a stressor on the body overall, but uh, impacts how you feel and how you perform. And then, uh, going on walks, as far as managing, you know, uh, blood sugar after meals, um, you know a 10 minute walk, um, there was also a really recent study that came out. It's, I mean, it's all over, but um, if you it was 10, 10 squats every 45 minutes actually managed blood sugar better than a 30 minute walk after meals. Uh, but just that, like, um, you know consistent input of glucose into the muscles and you know, utilization of it throughout the day, um, like I said, it just helped manage blood sugar and I'm sure, as they went I don't know how long the study actually was, but I'm sure they built muscle and it improved everything.

Philip Pape: 20:15

Hold on. So that's cool. I hadn't heard about that one. Did they at all compare it to one long training session in the day?

Brooke Davis: 20:23

No, it was compared to walks.

Philip Pape: 20:24

Yeah, cause I was wondering if you know cause. Again, I always make the anecdotal argument. I think it's supported by evidence, but that, like a nice solid training session, hard training session in the morning is great for your stress for the whole day. It might have a similar effect of like the micro doses of movement, just wondering.

Brooke Davis: 20:41

Yeah, um, no, there's actually. So the studies I mean this wasn't specifically on blood sugar, but I mean the the studies on exercise stacks. There are some studies, especially, uh, based on like strength, that I've read that, um, you, they actually were able to improve strength performance better by breaking up sessions because of the recovery piece of it, right, um, and then exercise snacks, you know as far as the benefits of it are equal to, you know, if not potentially better than one like long training session, um, so I think, I think it, and it makes sense to me that you know the consistent, again, utilization and and input of glucose into the muscles throughout the day would be more beneficial than even just a single like bout of exercise. But that would be an interesting study. Maybe someday I'll do that.

Philip Pape: 21:29

It's food for thought. Look, I mean, at the end of the day, you got to make it work, so you do something right, like do one of those things. But if you're like I could do either. Which do I do. It's nice to know which one's a little more optimal for some folks.

Brooke Davis: 21:41

Yeah, but I mean one thing we do like with kind of is like every time you go to the bathroom like do 10 extra squats like you, especially for, you know, those who sit at a desk, like you know, can you set a timer for the hour and just stand up and do 10 squat, right, it takes 10, maybe 15 seconds, right, to do 10 squats. Like who doesn't have time to do that?

Philip Pape: 22:00

Oh yeah, people will say they don't have time for a lot of things right brook, that they do. So all right, so continuing on with like we're. So ultimately, we're trying to support hormones for women in perimenopause and again people are thinking okay, where blood sugar comes into this because of the stress we mentioned before, the logical chain here of stress Affecting hormones, affecting fat storage, the ability to lose fat. I want to make sure that the listener continues to have that like what are the cause and effect of all this and where do I ultimately have the biggest impact with my actions, rather than like getting frustrated and thinking I have to get treatment or supplements or something like that.

Brooke Davis: 22:35

Yeah, uh, like I said. So biggest thing, like simple shifts with nutrition, that would be, you know, making sure, like I said, you're getting enough protein, you're getting enough high quality, nutrient dense food, enough fiber right, 25 to 35 grams per day of fiber, and then, in the order that you eat your meals, fiber, fat, protein, carbs and and then you know again if you strength training, of course, strength training two to three times a week, uh, making sure you have that muscle if you can do walks and your squats throughout the day. I mean those are some of the most impactful things you can do.

Philip Pape: 23:12

as far as blood sugar is concerned, so maybe the other angle on this is what not to do, because I'll tell you and you, I'm sure, a hundred percent agree with what you hear online all the time fasting, low carb. What are the other?

Brooke Davis: 23:28

ones Like we could just knock them down right now. Let's go. Okay, okay, uh, so fasting, um, I actually also have a whole podcast on this.

Philip Pape: 23:34

Um, but do you know what number it is, what episode, or is it recent?

Brooke Davis: 23:38

If we.

Philip Pape: 23:38

If we connect, we could drop it in later.

Brooke Davis: 23:40

Okay, okay, yeah, uh, it's, it was semi-recent, um, if they, you know, if they scroll through there, find it, I only have 40 episodes, so it's not like it'd be awesome.

Philip Pape: 23:48

I'm sure they're. They're super high quality. 40 episodes so good. That's easy. People can binge the whole thing yeah.

Brooke Davis: 23:53

Um, but so fasting? Um, there are. There are a ton of benefits to fasting, actually. Uh, most people, especially women, are doing it wrong. The reality of it is that, you know, not eating under nourishing, um, that is a stressor, and most women are already not eating enough, and so you cut off, you know, you give yourself a six hour time window to shove 2000 calories in, like I mean I love to eat, but like that's going to be hard for even me, Um and so, and then most women, you know, aren't getting, like I said, enough as it is and so.

Brooke Davis: 24:27

But you know, within that then we have cortisol and that is again a blood sugar regulator. So if you wake up in the morning, you, when your cortisol should be right, the highest, that's normal, we want it to be high, that's what wakes you up and it helps stabilize your blood sugar through the night because we're not eating overnight. So in the morning, right, it's. Waking up, it's high. If you continue to not eat right, instead of breaking that fast and allowing you know the food that you're eating to then stabilize your blood sugar, your cortisol will continue to remain elevated.

Brooke Davis: 24:59

So that's problem number one and most women, they're not cutting off their eating window at night, because that is the most difficult for most people, but they, so they take it off the morning and so when they're doing fasting, they're not eating until you know 12, one o'clock, on top of which they're usually, you know, having coffee, which also caffeine can be a major stressor can increase your cortisol, which and I and I have to like just clarify this because cortisol, there's nothing wrong inherently with cortisol.

Brooke Davis: 25:28

We need it, right. It is a natural hormone that has plays a role in, you know, every function of our body, but especially in perimenopause, it can actually really impact fat loss efforts and you know the way that your body continues to produce hormones. So, because too much cortisol will actually take the energy from other sex hormones, and so you know that you'll see, not not influencers, but like a lot of people being like cortisol doesn't matter. Like you know, people are pushing it too much and it's like, okay, there's a, there's a line, like I don't want you to just stress over cortisol, but you have to know that there are physiological, like implications to these actions that you're taking, um, and they can impact your fat loss efforts.

Philip Pape: 26:17

So many, many rant there, um no, no it, it makes sense, especially when you're like it's an indicator, it's biomarker, biofeedback, of what's going on. It's not that you want to go out and get a cortisol blocking supplement and just put a patch on this downstream thing. You want to lift and eat for your blood sugar and balance your food and don't fast at the wrong time, et cetera. Yeah, okay, totally, totally.

Brooke Davis: 26:38

So so, yeah, that's your food, and don't fast at the wrong time, et cetera.

Brooke Davis: 26:40

Yeah, okay, totally, totally so. So, yeah, that's, um, those are, I mean, two of the major like issues with fasting is they're they're not getting enough food, um, because it's really hard to eat in that window. And then that extended morning, you know, fast is does impact blood sugar, cortisol, et cetera, um, and then if they're not planning, you know what they're going to eat, if it's not quality, right, they're not only undernourishing, they're not getting a protein, which causes muscle loss, they are, you know, not getting enough fiber, which causes, you know, backup and detox and bowel movements, and then you know, so that's, those are the major issues with it. But, honestly, having a having an eating window and stopping eating, like six, you know, seven, maybe even at the latest, I think, honestly for everybody, not just perimenopausal women, but there's a reason that you know we have this overnight, uh, fast, and it gives your body a chance to actually regenerate, right, fasting it does actually have a lot of benefits, but it has to be done in the right way, for pregnant and postulant women specifically, I mean everybody.

Carol: 27:46

Before I started working with Philip, I had been trying to lose weight and was really struggling with consistency, but from the very beginning, philip took the time to listen to me and understand my goals. He taught me the importance of fueling my body with the right foods to optimize my training in the gym, and I lost 20 pounds. More importantly, I gained self-confidence. What sets Philip apart is the personal connection. He supported and encouraged me every step of the way. So if you're looking for a coach who cares about your journey as much as you do, I highly recommend Philip Pape.

Philip Pape: 28:26

No, that makes sense. That's a great approach, right? Like we're not trying to black and white everything here and say there's you know, only one way. There's the way to do it. And, as everybody's fasting, when they sleep, right, they're fasting. So now it's a matter of like okay, at the end of the day, listen to your body. How's your food impacting your sleep and your biometrics? If you shifted your time window, would you be more consistent with it? Could you align it with your energy during the day, like all the things? Right, yeah, so how does? Where do carbs come into this as well, cause recently I've been digging in. Did I come out with the episode? Yet? I don't know. There might be one coming out about the connection between carbs and cortisol, which I think is pretty cool.

Brooke Davis: 29:09

Yeah, yeah, I mean carbs help manage cortisol output is the reality of it, and that is one reason why low carb diets one reason are an issue. The other side of that, there are actually some studies that short-term, especially for perimenopausal women, short-term lower carb, higher fat diets, um do actually help, you know, stabilize blood sugar, decrease stress in the body, help with hormone production, especially from women who, like this is it's like a generational thing. So, like the generation before me, they were like low fat right, eating the low fat dairy low fat milk, that kind of thing.

Brooke Davis: 29:40

And then my generation, I feel like, is low carb. We're like, all right, we're going to do keto or low carb. So it kind of depends on like, and some people are kind of in the middle of that. So I get, I get, you know, different one coming to me but but the, you know, getting enough quality fats most importantly, which is we're not on keto yet. But that is the biggest, uh, you know, issue, and because hormones are made with B vitamins and cholesterol and so without that fat, that those quality fats, um, you're going to struggle to make hormones and so, and then carbohydrates, I mean carbs, are body's main and preferred source of energy, is the reality of it. Um, they also have a ton of fiber. So, you know, we're not just looking at cortisol in terms of regulation, but, um, detoxification, you know, digestion, the fiber in foods feed our gut microbiome, which is a whole nother aspect of perimenopause that, uh, you know, comes into play, and so carbs are a necessary part of life and so carbs are a necessary part of life.

Philip Pape: 30:42

Yeah, I agree. And you didn't even have to, like, make the case for all the other benefits for performance and energy and recovery. Now, just saying that, that alone I've seen it. I'm sure you've seen it. Women come to you having undernourished but also eating too few carbs, and just adding carbs can all of a sudden unlock a whole bunch of vitality. You know, it's like whoa, I have energy.

Brooke Davis: 31:06

I have my hormones, you know, whatever. So, before we wrap up, yeah, go ahead and fat loss, yes, yes, I know we're over time, but, um, that is one of the biggest things. Like you know, people come to us, they're eating low carb, low calorie I mean, I've literally doubled some women's calories, and you know and they lose weight and they're like what is that? It's like this is what happens when you nourish your body, right it? Because then it comes back to the nervous system, I think largely. You know you're in that fight-or-flight state when you're starving, basically, and so your body's like no, we're hanging on to. You know, everything we got right now.

Brooke Davis: 31:37

And you know, yes, like when it comes to starvation, right, if you are vastly under eating for a long period of time, yeah, you're just, I mean, you're gonna lose weight and waste away to nothing. But that's not usually what happens. People, you know, eat low carb, low calorie all week, and then they have one day that they eat a ton, to try, you know, because their bodies are trying to make up for it all, and so they're not actually like starving, but they would be if they ate how they do during the week, like all the time. So, yeah, it's a. It's an interesting phenomenon to witness. Yeah, I think.

Philip Pape: 32:13

I think you hit on some of the really big points today, like, just to recap right, we came into this with the premise why are women struggling to lose fat, or why are they gaining more fat during perimenopause?

Philip Pape: 32:24

And what I heard from you is it is the hormones, but it's not necessarily the hormones, in that what you're doing about it supports your hormones and it's not like you're trying to just therapy your way out of it. Right, you supplement your way out of it and it's really so. It's both. It's all of it together, and you have to understand the change in physiology and that you can't act like you were in your twenties, that you've got to eat enough food and nutrients, enough fiber. You have to have balance. You have to think about your blood sugar. It sounds like a lot, but at the end of the day I think you hinted multiple times eating a variety of whole foods, nutritious foods and like not under eating is a great start. It's a great start and just to kind of segue into ending this episode and then teasing into the other conversation we're having how do cardio and lifting then play into this? Because it's not just about nutrition, right?

Brooke Davis: 33:09

Absolutely yeah. So I mean, I mentioned muscle. That is a huge supporter of not only blood sugar but of bone health, of longevity, quality of life, which, you know, people in their 20s aren't usually too worried about. But I feel like once you get into your 30s and 40s, you it's at least in the back of your head being like, okay, you know, I don't want to be in a wheelchair or have to be in a walker or have somebody else taking care of me when I'm, you know, 60, 70 years old. So you know, strength training at least two to three times a week, um, you know, 30 minute sessions and we want to lift heavy. This is, this is I'm going to put heavy in quotes heavy, heavy for you. Um, people hear heavy and they get really intimidated. Uh, women, women here.

Philip Pape: 33:52

I have quotes too.

Brooke Davis: 33:53

I have a pair of quotes in my pocket too for heavy, just like you do. Okay, yeah, um, but you know, this is uh studies were done on strength training and um is uh studies were done on strength training and um, you know, 75% of your warm rep max, for you know, four to six reps is going to be kind of the optimal range for uh, building muscle but also reducing um, or reducing inflammation, um, basically, longevity markers. There was a bunch of longevity markers tested with these uh ranges and those were the ones that improved the stats the most essentially. And so, um, uh, so, strength training in that capacity, um, plyometrics, those are all going to impact bone density, which vastly decreases as estrogen declines. Um, you know, after age 30 for women, um, and that is. And then, speaking of, you know, quality of life, right, you break a hip after age 65, you, the 30% of people, die within a year. 60% die within five years, like it's, it's gnarly. So those are really powerful tools and really important tools for again maintaining not just fat loss and metabolism, that kind of stuff, but also quality of life as you age.

Brooke Davis: 34:59

And then cardio, cardio gets, I'm going to say, really bastardized but, and so you absolutely need it. You need it for heart health. High intensity exercise, even, is great for even women in perimenopause. But we do have to manage it right. You can't go to boot camp six days a week, you know, for an hour long high intensity class and think that your body is going to be stoked about it. Um, not only are your joints probably not going to love it, um, but also, if that's a major stressor, um, you're probably not eating enough to support that kind of activity as it is. So, um, you know, usually I recommend, um and I mean science recommends you know to to at most usually true high intensity, and that's the other thing is that an hour long class is not true High intensity work shouldn't last usually more than 15, 20 minutes, yeah, if you're, if you're pushing like you're not lasting more than you know 15, 20 minutes doing something like that.

Brooke Davis: 35:54

And then uh, zone two is another really powerful heart health, cardiovascular supporting way to support your overall fat loss and just longevity through perimenopause.

Philip Pape: 36:10

Love it, love it. And if you're listening and you're like, okay, I'm struggling, I'm frustrated, I can't lose weight, even though we're ultimately talking about fat loss, even though we're ultimately talking about fat loss, setting things up the way Brooke talked about today, without stressing yourself with another diet, is a great start, before you then say, okay, now I've got things dialed in, now let me go for some little more aggressive, say fat loss. At that point you know there's an order of things we want to do. So, all right, if you like what you heard in this episode, everyone, um, you're going to want to listen to the second half of this. We kind of hinted and teased at it.

Philip Pape: 36:39

Brooke interviews me on Fitness Simplified podcast. It's in your feed right now. Same time, different podcast, of course, fitness Simplified. We're going to talk about muscle metabolism. She explained the hormones really well here, the lifestyle, the nutrition side. So we're going to talk about body composition, muscle metabolism. Search for Fitness Simplified podcast or click the link in the show notes. Brooke, it has been a lot of fun. It's been a pleasure to have you on. Thanks for joining me again yes, thank you.

Brooke Davis: 37:05

Thank you, this is awesome, great combo.

My Escape from Low-Carb Diets to More Energy, Muscle, and Fat Loss | Ep 322

Join our FREE Wits & Weights Facebook group to connect with other listeners who are applying these evidence-based approaches to their fitness journey (or search “Wits & Weights” on Facebook)

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Have you tried to eat more freely, but old low-carb rules keep creeping in?
What if the real issue isn’t carbs at all, but your identity?

I share the raw truth of my journey from strict keto and paleo to happily eating over 300 grams of carbs a day without guilt, without bloat, and with better results than ever. You’ll learn how I confronted disordered thinking, broke free from nutrition dogma, and rebuilt my beliefs around food and performance. If you’ve struggled with all-or-nothing dieting, this one’s for you.

Today, you’ll learn all about:

01:01 - Why I stopped fearing carbs
05:14 - First experiences with low-carb diets
10:50 - My paleo obsession and food dogma
14:36 - When training didn’t match my nutrition
18:05 - The breaking point that changed everything
23:45 - How I overcame my fear of carbs
29:06 - The identity shift behind better eating
32:30 - What actually changed when I added carbs
40:42 - Do carbs need to be high or low?
45:19 - Travel and tracking without a food scale
58:55 - Outro

Episode resources:

• Try MacroFactor free with code WITSANDWEIGHTS – Apple/iPhone or Google/Android

How I Finally Let Go of Low-Carb Diets and Found Food Freedom

Let’s be honest—if you’ve ever gone low carb, keto, or paleo, you probably didn’t do it for fun. You did it because you thought it was the only way to finally lose fat, feel healthy, and control your eating. I used to believe that too. But here's the truth: the problem wasn’t the science. It was identity. It was habits. It was fear.

This episode is my full story—how I went from ultra-restrictive low-carb zealot to eating 300+ grams of carbs per day without guilt, while gaining strength, building muscle, and losing fat more effectively than ever. If you’ve been curious about carbs—or afraid of them—this might be the permission you need to rethink everything.

Why I Clung to Low-Carb Diets for So Long

Like many of you, I started dieting to feel better in my body. I was carrying extra fat, I wasn’t training consistently, and I had zero understanding of nutrition science. Atkins was my gateway. Then came keto, paleo, primal—you name it.

Why? Because:

• I saw fast scale drops (water weight, mostly)

• I had no clue what calories or macros were

• I thought carbs were the enemy

Over time, it wasn't just about food. It became part of my identity. I believed I was doing it right by avoiding carbs. That I was smarter and healthier because I could “resist temptation.”

The Hidden Damage of Carb Avoidance

But here's what really happened over the years:

• I felt tired and drained, especially during workouts

• My performance stagnated

• I obsessed over food, especially at social events

• I binge-ate candy in secret, followed by guilt and restriction

• I convinced myself I “wasn’t the kind of person” who could handle carbs

Worse, I thought the answer to feeling better was more restriction. Until one day, the mental exhaustion and lack of results forced me to ask: Is this really sustainable?

The Shift That Changed Everything

In 2020, I started training for strength—real strength—with barbells. My coach told me to stop worrying about calories and just eat more to support training. So I did. I started fueling like an athlete. I had zero nutrition structure at first, but one thing was clear: carbs were helping.

I felt more alive. I recovered faster. I wanted to train again.

Eventually I discovered macros and flexible dieting. I learned that:

• Protein is king for fat loss and muscle retention

• Fat and carbs are fuel, and the ratio depends on your goals and preferences

• Calories still matter, but you can manipulate them to gain, maintain, or lose

Suddenly, I wasn't scared of food anymore. I was using it.

Reintroducing Carbs Without Guilt or Bloat

This wasn’t an overnight shift. I had to gradually retrain my mind and body:

• I stopped labeling food as “clean” or “dirty”

• I added carbs with intention—especially pre- and post-workout

• I expected temporary water weight gain (glycogen and water), and didn’t panic

• I reminded myself: carbs don’t cause fat gain—calorie surplus does

Now, I eat 300–500 grams of carbs per day depending on the phase I’m in (cut, maintenance, or bulk). And I’ve never been leaner, stronger, or more at peace with food.

Breaking the Mental Chains

So what held me back for so long? Fear. Fear of losing control. Fear of being judged. Fear of undoing “all the work.” And that fear was rooted in old identity patterns—who I thought I had to be.

The turning point was realizing that restriction was causing the food obsession. When I let go of the diet labels and gave myself permission to explore a new approach, everything changed.

Food became fuel, not morality.

Answering Common Questions About My Transition

Did I gain weight when I added carbs back?
Yes—but only a few pounds of water weight. Glycogen holds water. Fat didn’t increase because calories were still controlled.

Did I notice a performance difference?
Absolutely. Strength, pumps, recovery, and mood all improved. It was night and day.

Do I still track macros?
Yes, but I focus on consistency, not perfection. I pre-log meals. I plan my carbs around training. I enjoy the freedom that structure provides.

Do I time my carbs?
Mostly around workouts and dinner (for sleep quality). Otherwise, I eat them when I want—fruit, rice, oats, potatoes, pasta, you name it.

Do I avoid “high glycemic” foods?
Nope. Once you understand total meal composition and context (protein, fiber, fat), glycemic index becomes irrelevant unless you’re diabetic.

The Takeaway: You’re Not “Bad at Dieting.” You Just Need the Right Framework.

The real magic isn’t in keto or paleo or macros or any method. It’s in principles.

• Understand your body’s needs

• Use structure, not restriction

• Prioritize performance and recovery

• Make your nutrition sustainable and enjoyable

If you’re still stuck in low-carb thinking, ask yourself:
Is this still serving me? Or just something I’ve been afraid to question?

And if you're ready to build a better relationship with carbs, food, and your goals—know that you're not alone. I've been there, and so have hundreds of my clients.

Click here to learn more about nutrition coaching.

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Transcript

Philip Pape: 0:01

If you feel like you are stuck eating low carb, even though you know deep down, carbs might not be evil, this episode is for you. Today, I'm sharing my personal journey from strict keto and paleo to eating hundreds of grams of carbs daily. You'll learn exactly how I overcame the biggest obstacle to change, which wasn't information. It was really about my identity. I'll reveal the physical changes I experienced as I reintroduced carbs, the mental obstacles I had to overcome and the practical strategies that finally helped me break free, so you can do the same. Welcome to Wits and Weights, the show that helps you build a strong, healthy physique using evidence, engineering and efficiency. I'm your host, philip Pape, and today's episode's a bit different because I am actually interviewing myself, which I'm always hesitant to do in terms of sharing my personal journey. But people are always asking and I think it's important to understand that we all struggle with the same things, just in different ways. I personally used to have very strict diets. I've done everything from SlimFast and Atkins way back in the day to strict keto, paleo, various low-carb diets and even other weird diets that are probably outside the scope of today's episode, and today I eat easily over 300 grams of carbs every day, with better performance, with more muscle, with zero guilt. I love to eat food now and I can enjoy it and make progress, and I've worked with hundreds of clients who are able to do the same, some of whom were very, very hesitant to introduce carbs, some of who even introduced more carbs and said whoa, what is going on with you? On with bloating or quick weight gain, or things that are explainable but very frustrating and hard to wrap your head around until you understand how carbs work in those transition periods, and I want to try to touch on those different things today. But what I did is I posted in our Facebook community, which is free. You guys can join it, use the link to join anytime. And I asked you all hey, what would you ask me? Facebook community, which is free. You guys can join it, use the link to join anytime. And I asked you all hey, what would you ask me if this was an interview about that topic? And you sent me a ton of questions and effectively going to ask myself those questions today and answer them more or less off the cuff, as if it was an interview.

Philip Pape: 2:17

I would be remiss if I didn't say this episode wasn't inspired by one person in particular and that was a listener, alex B, who asked a really insightful question that resonated with me and I actually sat on it for a few months before I recorded this episode, because it sounded like a heavy topic for me to tackle and she wrote about struggling to bridge that gap between knowing the science behind carbs right, many of you know the science, or you've heard the show and you know it. Many of you don't. You're new to the show, or you're new to evidence-based nutrition and maybe still think there's a problem with carbs they're evil, they make you get fat, whatever and kind of having that knowledge, but then still finding it difficult to break your old habits or let yourself give into it and experiment with these because of these old habits, whether it's keto, paleo or something else and honestly, this could apply to any restrictive diet carnivore, veganism, vegetarianism, whatever that you've imposed on yourself because you think it's the right thing to do from a health perspective Not from a values-based perspective that's a different topic but just from a health perspective because of what you've heard or read. Or maybe you've gotten some short-term results or others have gotten some of those results, and so today isn't about spewing more information at you. I have plenty of shows that do that. It's actually about how you change your behavior despite the fear, despite the identity you've built, despite years of conditioning. Sometimes we condition ourselves, sometimes our upbringing and society and the content we consume has conditioned us, and so that's what we're going to do today. Right, and again, I reached out to our Facebook group and they sent me some fantastic questions. We're going to cover those.

Philip Pape: 3:58

So, before we get into it, if you enjoy the show in general, if you want to connect with people who like these sorts of topics and really to dig in and understand their identity, who want to know what works for them, who want to personalize in and not just be given macros or templates, that's what we do in our community. It's a free community. It's called Wits and Weights. In Facebook I will give you the link to click in the show notes, and that is a place where we have these conversations. We support each other through our transitions of nutrition experience right, we share our wins, we get our questions answered, we deal with some tough, vulnerable topics as well and in a I hate to use the word safe space, but effectively it's a nonjudgmental place where you know anybody who's negative and doesn't need to be, generally gets the boot. So if you're looking for a supportive place, that's it. If you want to get away from the politics and the negativity, that's where it happens and that's where this stuff came from for today's episode. So just head to Facebook and search for Wits and Weights, or just click the link in the show notes request to join, and I'd love to see you in there. All right, so we're going to start with the origin story. Right? Every hero's journey and I'm not calling myself a hero, I just love the idea of the hero's journey from, for example, star Wars or really any great story arc starts with the origin story.

Philip Pape: 5:14

What first attracted me to low carb diets and there are a lot of them out there. When we say low carb, what do we mean? We mean that control for calories, or maybe maybe sometimes you have no idea what the calories are. You're trying to reduce the amount of carbs you eat and increase your protein and or fats. Right, the three macros carbs, protein, fats was throw it on the wall and see what sticks and see if it works.

Philip Pape: 5:49

Based on the content I was consuming, which tended to be in the early days, you know, diet books from Barnes and Noble or random forums on the internet, maybe some influencers here and there, although I was never really into social media, so that wasn't a thing for me. You know, five, 10 years ago we're talking, we're talking from the early two thousands to like the late 20 teens, and I also I never really had a concrete goal, other than I'm unhappy with my body. I'm a little bit fluffy at times or skinny, fat, frumpy. Didn't like how I looked in, you know, at the pool without my shirt on and I just had a bunch of insecurities around that, and so I would primarily be focused on losing weight. Let's just put it that way. Like many of us are, I didn't think about energy, health, any of that, especially when I was younger and so in the early 2000s, the first diet experience I could remember is during college, on my internship.

Philip Pape: 6:40

This is around the year 2000. I was, I believe now in hindsight, emotionally eating due to some things that happened that I'm not going to go into details on some personal relationship things that happened at a young age, and I wouldn't say I was depressed, but I was definitely finding comfort in food and it would be things that had a lot of calories, like uh, you guys know friendlies there. They started up here in Massachusetts, I'm in Connecticut, and they have these, um, ice cream Sundays. Right, I love ice cream still to this day and I now I still enjoy ice cream. But I would get these massive Reese's peanut butter cup Sunday things, which you look at the calories Now, they're probably like 1500 calories and I would have that just about every day.

Philip Pape: 7:18

I like I'll put it this way, I couldn't help myself, right? You guys know that experience and I gained a lot of weight, let's just put it that way. I went from about averaging 165 at 5'9 to about 210 pounds. Okay, totally unchecked, no training, no exercise, none of that. And a lot of the gurus I had been following at the time were around the Atkins community, and so when I got back to college for my junior year, I said I'm going to do this thing and I out all fruit, vegetables, anything that was a carb. I basically ate meat without a bun and, oh man, I can't even remember it was like literally just meat. Okay, it almost reminds me of carnivore.

Philip Pape: 7:57

And what would happen is I started to lose a lot of weight. Of course you do, because what happens when you cut out carbs. What happens when you cut out most processed foods, you lose a lot of water weight because of the carbs, but you also cut your calories significantly and so I lost a lot of weight, but I also had some very unpleasant digestive side effects, let's just say. And the other thing is, when you have a higher fat diet, we do know that it can help with satiety, even though today I recommend using protein and fiber for satiety. That is fullness. We do know from the keto community, for example in carnivore, that fat can be satiating as well, and so I was able to go through my day not feeling too hungry, suppress my appetite, I had a lot of water, weight loss, a lot of scale drops due to the lack of calories and, you know, I gradually brought it down to where my scale weight was maybe in the 170s again and I definitely felt better about myself, finding that something could work and I knew something was behind it.

Philip Pape: 8:53

But I never. I didn't know calories, I didn't know macros, I didn't know any of that stuff back then. And also, um, the other thing that comes to mind is how we defined the carb. So back then, to me any carb was bad right, like carb equated to sugar, equated to bad, equated to, that's how you get fat. I believed it to the extent that I didn't even know about calories or energy. Right Now we're much more educated on that, given social media, and people will still say, oh no, it's not about energy balance, it's about the types of calories or it's about carbs specifically, regardless of energy balance, and that's just false. Like we know, energy balance is behind whether you gain or lose weight. Macros and nutrients come into play with a lot of other factors like body composition, energy, digestive health, all the other things, right. So that was my first foray into low carbs. I didn't know why it worked, I just know it worked and I probably sustained that for a couple of years and then I realized I didn't like to eat just hamburger patties right, and I'm kind of oversimplifying, but effectively was that simplistic of a diet, which means it was that highly restrictive of a diet.

Philip Pape: 9:54

Going into my twenties and even thirties, new diets started to pop up. Okay, and I want to say, for about a five to 10 year period, I didn't even diet at all, I just ate whatever. And I gained a bunch of weight. And this was into when I got married in the mid, that was 2006. And then around 2000, I want to say eight, nine I discovered paleo. I think that was around the time I discovered primal paleo and I just jumped in whole hog into that world, the idea of ancestral health, of, okay, well, our ancestors didn't have access to grains or dairy, so of course they couldn't eat those things they also ate. They were opportunists. So they hunted and gathered and they they had this feast or famine approach and I basically went all in on no grains, no dairy, which basically means little to no carbs. Because, yeah, you can can quote, unquote eat fruit, but I didn't eat a lot of fruit or veggies at the time.

Philip Pape: 10:50

I was very picky, see, that's the other part of this but I did, I did that's what they say I did paleo and I did that for probably five to 10 years and that was the most dogmatic, I'll say religious zealotry that I got into when it came to a diet. I had probably like 20 books on paleo. I had all these recipe books and I have to say you can make a lot of great meals when you're thinking paleo, because it's a lot of meat and vegetables. During that time my wife helped me get past my pickiness when it came to vegetables, let's say, and that's a whole other story, but it was helpful that I was incorporating those and I was eating a lot of whole foods and it was.

Philip Pape: 11:29

There was a lot of things I was adding in as a result of payload. That, I would say, is a good thing. I would say it's a good thing that is lean meats and vegetables and fruits, you know, whole foods uh, eggs, I believe, but I wasn't eating dairy and I wasn't eating actually I forget about eggs, but I know it wasn't eating any grains whatsoever which, in my mind, was carbs. And I want to take a little side tangent here, because carbs are highly misused as a term. Carbohydrates are found in apples and they're also found in Snickers, but you know, what else is found in Snickers Is lots of fat and sugar. Now, you could say, well, sugar is a carb, yes, but lots and lots of added sugars in a form that has been engineered beautifully to look good, to taste good, to have a multi-sensory, time-based, almost orgasmic experience when you eat it. And I'm serious, you guys know what I'm talking about.

Philip Pape: 12:22

Pick your most favorite delicious, indulgent thing, I don't care how processed it is. Okay. I use Snickers as an example, because of the way it's designed. The way it's designed with layers of chocolate and caramel and peanuts nugget I don't even know that's in there, maybe not, but different layers to and it's pre-processed. Now, this is the disgusting thing about a lot of ultra-processed foods is they're effectively ground up ingredients that are smushed together in an engineered way to be highly palatable, delicious and easily consumed, and then you're still hungry and you want to eat more, and hence the slogan you can't have just one.

Philip Pape: 12:55

So when you think of carbs, do you think of pizza and ice cream and donuts and Doritos, or do you think of oats and rice and apples and potatoes? Big difference, right? However, the anti-carb groupthink lumps them all together, and when people say I cut carbs, I'm like what do you mean? So I want you to ask yourself that question what do you mean? So for me, they were all poison, they were all lumped together, they were all like sugar in my mind, including fruits, and we know that's not the case today. So I did that and at the same time, I started CrossFit.

Philip Pape: 13:27

I've talked about CrossFit before early on in one of my earliest podcasts. I did that for about eight years, from like 2010 to 2018. And throughout that, most of that time, I also stuck with some version of paleo or low carb, eventually getting more into the keto side of things, which there's not a lot of differences, I'll be honest. It's basically a high fat approach that didn't really account for protein or calories. It was just what can't you eat, what can you not eat, what do you have to cut out? And so I, and throughout this whole time I more or less maintained my weight, but I was also doing CrossFit and a lot of cardio and I was kind of stressed out from the workouts a bit, didn't really look forward to them usually and it didn't do anything for my physique at all. Right, like I could lift. When I started, I probably could squat, you know, 95 pounds or something small like that. And then by the time I was quote unquote done with CrossFit, I was only up to 225 on my squat. That. And then by the time I was quote unquote done with CrossFit, I was only up to 225 on my squat.

Philip Pape: 14:20

And I hear stories like this all the time Unless you focus on strength, you're not going to get it up. You know, currently my squat is over 300. My deadlift is over 400. My bench is well over 200, right, just the numbers you would expect from even average strength for somebody who's doing strength training, and I wish I started earlier, but I didn't. But that's a whole different thing.

Philip Pape: 14:36

When we talk about training, however, it's important because I wasn't training the right way and therefore I wasn't thinking of eating to train the right way, and I never knew that carbs could be beneficial, nor was I training in a way where they were going to be that beneficial, if that makes sense. In other words, the vast majority of the population is either sedentary or they're active, but not in a purposeful way, such that they're not utilizing carbs in the way that carbs can be highly effective, which we're going to get into in this episode and why I wanted to do this. So that brings me to the next part of the story, which is the breaking point, and here's my first question from a listener, where Tony asked, after essentially being anti-carb, what cracked that shell? So in late 2019, I would say the breaking point is ironic. And it's ironic because it happened around Halloween, which is around the same time as my birthday, and I decided yet again to go cold turkey from carbs, and I did it by avoiding the candy drawer.

Philip Pape: 15:37

So I had gotten into a habit of I don't want to say sneaking, but those of us who understand emotional eating, you do it in a way that you feel guilty, right, you feel like I know I shouldn't be doing this, but I'm going to do it anyway. I can help myself F it, I'm already doing it. And then each day it's like you think you're going to reset and you don't right. Can you relate? So for me it was all sorts of snacks, but especially candy, which you know people say that's like eating like a kid. Well, yeah, a lot of us. That's what we're doing, the way we eat, right. So I would take the candy out of the candy drawer and of course that means I was deliberately going out and buying it to put there.

Philip Pape: 16:15

I didn't have the restraint like my wife did in terms of eating, just eating anything in moderation. She's great at that, she's really good at that. Just, I'll say, naturally she's always been that way and I'm not, so I can overeat. And that Halloween slash birthday. I said, okay, I'm done, I'm not going to have the candy for Halloween, I'm going to go cold turkey. And I did that for about two or three months Again thinking I need to cut out carbs. That is going to be the solution. But oh, did I feel miserable, did I feel awful not being able to eat all the things during the holidays. I didn't have energy, I didn't feel like doing my CrossFit, like the whole thing.

Philip Pape: 16:51

And so the turning point came and this is to answer Tony's question. It took time, right, it wasn't like a black and white is, with the mental fatigue and the performance stalls and being unhappy about my body and the social rigidity and like all of this stuff. I said, man, there's got to be something better, because I see people out there succeeding. I even see guys in what was the CrossFit gym and now is more of a strength and conditioning gym with great physiques. They seem energized, like maybe it's just genetics. I had always thought that to that point, like it's just genetics.

Philip Pape: 17:20

So I asked my trainer again. I've I've talked about this story before, so I'm not going to get too far into it, but I asked my trainer, andrew, like what do I need to do to get a better physique? And kind of figure this out. And that's when he turned me on to. He's like you just need to lift for strength, big lifts, progress over time. Let's forget all the wads, you know the workouts of the day, forget all the conditioning, just go for strength. And that got me down the path of going to Google and YouTube and podcasts and learning about strength. And it turned me on to guys like Eric Trexler and Annie Morgan with their muscle and strength pyramids, to starting strength, of course, and to that whole world, eventually into the nutrition side of it about a year after that, which I'm getting to. So what shifted is I started to train for strength.

Philip Pape: 18:05

The pandemic hit. That's kind of a almost an afterthought at this point, but it did cause me to have to build my home gym for the first time instead of go to the gym, which is cool because to this day, that's what I have. I got a power rack, I got a bar, I got a plate it's all that fun stuff and started to train Squats, deadlifts, presses, overheads, just cranking the numbers up, and I heard that you had to eat a lot of food. So I just said forget this low-carb stuff, forget any diet, I'm just going to try to gain weight. It sounded really liberating actually to just gain weight and not care about it, because I thought, well, now, this is a purposeful gain, even though it was not done optimally by any stretch of the imagination. So, yeah, a lot of whole milk in there.

Philip Pape: 18:45

I started consuming a lot more protein because that was part of it was oh, I actually need that much protein. You guys know what I'm talking about. You know that one gram per pound, or even 0.8 grams per pound, when you are not paying attention to your protein your whole life, you realize you are woefully under eating that stuff. So, adding more protein, in adding more, I had more whole milk, more fat, more carbs, more everything, and I started to gain. I started to gain, gain, gain started to grow, but my girth started to grow as well. Okay, and I always tell this story on other podcasts but, like after, I gained a bunch of strength and muscle during that first newbie phase of about a year.

Philip Pape: 19:22

That's when I realized well, now I really need to understand even more about nutrition, because there's got to be a way to lean out. And that's where I learned about macros, flexible dieting and the fact that we don't eat to lose weight. We eat to support our energy, we eat to support our metabolism, we eat to perform, to feel great, to manipulate our physique, at times right To lift optimally in the gym all of that stuff. And so again, shout out to you, tony, because you were there from early on when I got into the coaching side of things and to this day, push me and also and you will admit this are one of the people who are a little bit afraid of carbs yourself, and it took a while even to convince you right that they would be helpful. You had to experiment with it back off a bit and then experiment again back off until you realize wait a minute, when I have more carbs I tend to perform better.

Philip Pape: 20:14

They're the body's preferred fuel under load. They're the body's stress reliever. They provide you the glycogen you need. They are anti-catabolic, they prevent the breakdown of muscle tissue All the wonderful benefits of carbs that I've talked about on multiple episodes. Just go search my podcast feed for carbs and, like once I realized that I could eat and lose weight on the scale, which I still was fixated on early on.

Philip Pape: 20:40

I didn't quite understand fat loss versus weight loss and body composition. It wasn't until I read a book by Elaine Norton I think it's called Fat Loss Forever where I learned all about body fat overshooting. You looked at the studies about the biggest loser, all of it started to come together. I said, oh wow. So now that I'm strength training and focused on muscle and strength, now that I'm eating for fuel and for how I feel and perform, and now that I know calories are the dial to gain and lose weight, it all came together. Keep the protein high, manipulate the carbs lower, because carbs do get pretty low depending on your calories and fat loss and that is how I could get the physique that I want and I started to improve.

Philip Pape: 21:26

I'll say quickly but don't be misled that you can totally change your whole transformation in six months. It doesn't work that way. It does take time. I would say your first year, though, you're going to see a meaningful change, but then the real like kind of looking a little bit jacked or having that six pack, whatever that starts to happen more in the years two and three, like just to be realistic, unless you already have a good starting point or you have a history of this. You know you're pretty lean, whatever, so kind of answer the question.

Philip Pape: 21:52

The aha moment took me a year and a half to realize that carbs were just a great tool and they were useful and they were helpful, and it took me like two or three more years of doing this podcast, researching and coaching clients, to be able to express that right, to be able to talk about it in a way that made sense. So that's why a lot of you are listening and I wanted to do this podcast, because it's not necessarily easily accepted by society or even by you listening right, and I'm not here to convince you, I'm just trying to hear it tell my story. So then this brings me to the next part of the story, where I'm going to answer Alex's original question to me, and she said hi, you've mentioned our previous, or your previous keto paleo adherence and how you've since learned better and, more importantly, done better. My question is how you bridge the gap between knowledge and implementation. I'm someone who knows the science behind carbs, but I still really struggle to break my old keto paleo habits and include anything more than non-starchy vegetables and a little fruit. So there's a lot in that question, alex, and this is why I wanted to talk to you and everyone today, and I kind of answered it somewhat already.

Philip Pape: 23:02

But I would say first of all, the habits that were hardest to break were thinking of food with like a moral judgment that anytime I saw anything with carbs that was a no-no right, that I had to avoid it. And so I think the biggest game changer for me and this helps a lot of people that I work with is the idea of additive nutrition, of adding in the things you need along with the things you want. So both In other words, being intentional In the past and many of you listening you're not intentional about it, and by intentional I don't mean you're intentional about cutting out a bunch of foods. No, I mean you're intentional about it. And by intentional I don't mean you just you're intentional about cutting out a bunch of foods. No, I mean you're intentional about why you eat what you eat and including those in, and so for me that was okay.

Philip Pape: 23:45

I know that I need to eat more carbs before and after I train, along with protein, because that's going to support my training. I'm going to feel better. I know it might help to have carbs at dinner because it's going to help me sleep better, and I know that I only need so much protein and fat, and if the rest of the calories come from carbs, then carbs may be a lot higher than I used to eat. And now I have to find how to get them right, like it's those kinds of anchors, I would say. And I still had anxiety around carbs for a while, I would say, because I had gained all that weight while lifting properly. I was wondering how much of that was associated with carbs. And I hear guys still on podcasts say well, you just got to cut out carbs, that's how you eat better. And again, they're not talking about carbs, they're talking about carb, sugar, fat combinations, like processed foods, like pizza and whatnot, and but instead of thinking that I have to cut them out, I think what do I need to add in? And then what's left? And I can still enjoy other foods.

Philip Pape: 24:43

And so where I'm going with all this, alex, is you know you said it's hard for me to break my old habits, including anything more than non-starchy vegetables and little fruit. I would reflect on your like, the psychological flexibility and your identity around that. For example, what are you avoiding? What are you avoiding and why? So? When I think about your struggle to break old habits, what comes to mind is things like habit loops. I don't know if you're familiar with Atomic Habits by James Clear, but the reward, the trigger, reward type cues, the loop, the habit loops and instead of thinking of carbs as this generic blob of a thing out there, be intentional. Ask yourself first, alex, what is it about keto and paleo that you are still sticking to? Like, think about the habit that you are still doing Because you said you don't want to include more than non-starchy vegetables and a little fruit.

Philip Pape: 25:34

So like, excuse me, does that mean grains? That you don't want to include grains for some reason? And I had to break that loop when it came to paleo because I always thought grains. And then I would tie it into this whole rationale or justification about how ancestors didn't have access to that. And they have phytonutrients and they have anti-nutrients, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And then I had to slowly learn about the science of carbohydrates and the fact that consuming grains is perfectly acceptable if you can tolerate it. Some people can tolerate gluten, some can't, some people tolerate other grains, some can't, right, and that for me, when I consumed those things, I didn't seem to feel any worse, like didn't seem to affect my digestion, but it gave me an extra flexible source of energy that I needed for my goals.

Philip Pape: 26:14

So part of the cue or the trigger could be like not about eating more carbs, but you know I'm a person who values evidence-based training and sources of energy. I know that carbs give me the glycogen I need to train really hard and rice is a great source of carbs. I like rice, I like to prepare rice in this way and that way and therefore I'm going to include half a cup of rice with my next meal. And again, I'm just kind of spitballing it here with you about how to approach this for you. Like when I work with clients, alex, everybody's a little bit different and I know you and I talked about having accountability meal planning, meal prepping, pre-logging.

Philip Pape: 26:54

For some people it's just like doing it, just saying, okay, I'm going to plan these things into my diet and I'm going to give it a shot and see how I feel and then, if I notice that I actually feel better, that's a good reinforcement of that loop guilt. Right now, you may feel guilty when you grab something else that's not on your list of approved things that you used to think were bad with keto, and it might require just adding one of those things in and seeing what happens and noticing that the sky doesn't fall and, if anything, you'll realize, ooh, I really enjoyed my food a little more because I had this extra ingredient. Ooh, it gave me some more energy, you know, better sleep. Some people report better hormones or less stress, like all of those things. If you can lean into usually the non-scale victories they call them and tie them to these choices, you can gradually break the loops and build them in again. Working with a coach can be helpful because they can be someone you fall back on and you can transfer some of that emotional stress over. Um, and I love, I love to help people do that, because they might just not do it on their own and they need that push. But I'm hopefully giving you that little bit of a push here and you could always jump into our Facebook group and just post your experience, say, look, I brought this up with Philip. He had the podcast. It wasn't a good enough answer, so I'm posting for you guys to help me out and be specific and we could do that. So that's just kind of my thoughts on habits. Right, like any habit, you're going to have to break it, but you break it in a positive way by adding in the thing you need and then tie it into a loop of a reward.

Philip Pape: 28:29

Which leads me to the next question, which is from Christy L, and she said what part of your identity or belief system did you have to confront or let go of when you shifted away from keto, and how did that affect your relationship with food and your body? So the thing I didn't realize for years, christy, was that I basically had disordered eating, without admitting it or knowing it right. It was disordered. It wasn't to the point of like, like orthorexia is an obsession with clean food. Obviously there are. There's eating disorders, nothing like that, but more of a disordered eating of tying so much of who I was with what I ate.

Philip Pape: 29:06

And the irony, as you know, is I talk about this stuff all the time. Now I talk about food all the time, I track my food and everything, and yet I feel free from food, if that makes sense. In other words, I know the fact that I have dietary and psychological flexibility now is so empowering and it gives you this sense of confidence knowing that you can manipulate your health, your physique, your activity, your whatever, get a result you want and do it eating anything and I say anything with quotes because, again, this is not licensed to just literally eat anything whenever right. It's in a controlled, structured way. So again, your question what part of my identity or belief system that's part of it is the moral judgment on food, the disordered eating, the fact that there's a right, there are good and bad foods, the fact that science somehow supports that you can't eat a whole and bad foods, the fact that science somehow supports that you can't eat a whole class of foods, like to this day and you know this from Dustin's work as well. He talks about it all the time.

Philip Pape: 30:07

It's like seed oils and artificial sweeteners. There are so many boogeymen out there and the general default response I have to any of those, until proven otherwise, is no, the dosage makes it the poison and almost anything can be consumed in moderate amounts without any. You know negative effects and therefore I don't worry about those. What I do think about is how do I feel myself as an athlete? So I guess my identity and my belief system was that I could even be an athlete, that I can perform and lift weights and, heck, look good. I mean honestly, and I'm still working on it. Like we all have insecurities, it's not really about that, so much as I see the result from it.

Philip Pape: 30:49

And once the food freedom kicked in and I was doing the right things, which is important, right, because some of us are not training the right way, or training at all, or training consistently, and that's a big piece of it. Once I was doing that, it all started to click and then my relationship with food became very objective, I'll say like it's not emotional anymore, right, even hunger. Now, when I experienced hunger and a fat loss phase, it's like an objective feeling of, okay, I understand what that is like physiologically, physically, psychologically. I understand what it is now and it takes work to get there. Right, it takes a lot of work for some of us, myself included, and this is what I work with clients every day, and I'm sure you've experienced that yourself. And then it translates to your relationship with your body Because, let's be honest, when you actually get a result, when you start, when you're able to lose fat and build muscle and, like, improve your physique, your hormones, your metabolism, it gives you tons of confidence and it makes you walk upright, it makes you have less anxiety among people, let's say, if that's your thing, it makes you more confident to take action throughout other areas of your life, and all of that is tied up to our identity. So that's kind of what comes to mind for me. Hope it answers that question. So shout out to you, christy, for that.

Philip Pape: 31:56

I think I addressed what you were asking. And then, when we get to the practical side of things, I love these questions as because they're kind of easier for me to answer. But Jimmy Q asked how many carbs did you go from and to? So how many carbs did I go from and to, and was there an immediate weight gain, even if superficial, like water weight or glycogen? Let's see. He had other questions too how long did it take to regulate and get used to high carb? How much more energy did you end up having at the gym, assuming you were strength training during both diets in similar fashion? Good question, so. The first one once I learned about macros and energy balance, it was actually pretty easy.

Philip Pape: 32:30

Number one anchor my protein. Okay, 0.8 to one grams per pound. Number two peg my fats at around 30% of calories, give or take 10%. Number three the rest goes to carbs. So by definition, you are now anchored by calories, protein and a little bit by fat. I mean, the fat is flexible, right. So you're kind of anchored by calories and protein, meaning trying to gain weight versus lose weight, you're going to have much different level of carbs or much different level of calories, but because the protein is anchored, the fats and the carbs are going to swing around a lot.

Philip Pape: 33:00

So, in actual numbers, if I'm at maintenance, eating, say, 2,800, or it depends on what my maintenance is at the time, but 2,600 to 3,000 calories, I'm still going to be eating 350 grams of carbs. Maybe If I'm gaining, I'm going to eat a lot more than that. So, like crazy amount, maybe 500. And if I'm losing for me most of my diets I'm eating around 2,000 calories, maybe 1,800. Then I'm down to like a couple hundred grams, maybe less, which, as you know, none of those are low carb. Now, having said that just caveat I have plenty of clients who have much lower metabolisms. They're smaller, or you know a petite female or somebody who just happens to burn fewer calories, and they might burn, let's say, 2,000 calories as their maintenance and when they go to a diet they're at like 1,400 calories. Well, their carbs are now probably going to drop to 120 grams, 100 grams, maybe less than 100, maybe 80 grams, maybe even 60.

Philip Pape: 33:56

And then we get into what we think of as low carb or even VLC, very low carb or keto, right. So it's going to depend on the calories and then the protein, where trade-offs can always be made, and that gets into the nuances we're not going to get into today. Trade-offs can be made Now, the keto and carnivore worlds when they think of carbs, they think of just making it as low as possible because they care about being fat adapted and they care about ketosis and all of that, none of which matters, because the glycogen is the first source of energy your body's going to seek. If it doesn't, it's going to go to fat. At the end of the day, calories are calories, like, based on how much you consume and how much you burn. You're going to store energy, whether it's consumed from glycogen, glucose or fat, right, and I've talked about that many times as well.

Philip Pape: 34:41

So the caveat is, if you've been low carb for a long time and I did the math recently if you've been like, say, 50 grams of carbs for the last two years, you know keto and all of a sudden you jump to 300 grams of carbs or 400 grams of carbs, right, and I don't recommend doing that overnight, you know. Take take a week or two to do it regularly. I mean incrementally. When you make a jump like that, every gram of carbs results in almost a gram of glycogen stored in your liver and your muscles, which draws in about three to four grams of water. So if you did the math, you could easily gain two to five pounds with a big jump in carbs just from water weight. And that's like at almost like any body weight. So a lighter person will see that as a massive weight change and get freaked out.

Philip Pape: 35:30

Conversely, when someone goes on keto and they had been consuming lots of carbs, whether it was on purpose or not, they'll say oh my God, I just lost five pounds in the first week. Water weight, it's all water weight. It's water weight Because the only way you lose fat is to be in an energy deficit, a true energy deficit. Okay, a pound of fat, roughly 3,500 calories of an energy deficit. Now, to be fair, if someone goes on keto, they probably are cutting out a whole bunch of foods and a whole bunch of processed foods and thus a whole bunch of energy or calories, and they might lose fat as well as water weight. And they're probably also going to lose muscle, because most of those people are not lifting weights. Some are. That's a whole separate discussion.

Philip Pape: 36:09

Now, as far as how long it took to regulate and get used to high carbs, it took me like a day, you know. And no, I say that in jest, but remember, when I talked about how I started lifting, I started following starting strength and I started just eating whatever. I switched my mind at that moment to saying, look, I'm a lifter right now and I need to fuel myself and I don't know, I don't care what it takes. And so I actually didn't put any governors or regulators on how much of whatever I was eating and I tolerate foods. Well, like I'm lucky Maybe is that the word Like, no matter how badly I've eaten in the past, my gut seems to be, seems to handle things. Well, I don't seem. I don't have any allergies, I don't have any intolerances.

Philip Pape: 36:51

Now a purist or a functional doctor or somebody might say well, you don't know, until you go on a elimination diet and like, get all those toxins out of your system to see what you really tolerate. Well, guess what? I've done that before and I didn't notice much of a difference. So we're not all the same folks Like some of us can tolerate a lot of these foods and, by the way, the science says most of these foods are perfectly edible, perfectly healthy, in moderation. So going back to the dosage is the poison. So how long it takes to regulate and get used to high carbs, I would say within a few weeks for most people. That's my short answer.

Philip Pape: 37:21

If I have a client who all of a sudden needs more carbs, it doesn't take long before they do it and they start to enjoy it and they start to say, whoa, like you're right about this stuff, like I have more energy, I can lift more, I got, I got. I was stuck on my bench for months or years and all of a sudden I'm up. You know, five pounds on my bench last week, or 10 pounds, whatever. Same thing happened to me. I mean, I did them both at the same time. So it's kind of tough to tease out the variables. But because I was actually eating more on purpose and for years and years and years I had been like restricting, restricting, restricting. I did that combined with strength training exactly what I do with my clients now when they get started and it was just like oh, everything started to take off like never before. Right, all my lifts just went up five, 10 pounds every time for a few weeks and then it kind of leveled off a little and then kept going for a while after that before I had to go to more intermediate programming.

Philip Pape: 38:09

So, yes, you'll get an immediate weight gain. It's all fluid because energy balance is the only thing that should be taken account when it comes to fat and you can do the math and you can see that if you're eating your maintenance calories, then anything you're gaining is probably not fat, it's probably fluid period. Same thing when you take creatine. So, jimmy, thanks for the question Shout out to you I'm trying to see if I missed anything. You get a better pump. You get a much better pump in the gym. I mean you will lose that altogether. If that's important to you and for a lot of us that's like a great feeling. What else you? What else you get? Better energy, sleep, mental clarity. In many cases I did a whole episode recently about cortisol, the connection between carbs and cortisol. Like so many things improve just because of the increase in carbs that you wouldn't realize until you do it, let alone the performance in the gym for sure. I mean I know this because as soon as I go on a diet, even if the calories aren't that low. The carbs come way down. You know I take a hit. Or if I forget to not forget to, let's say, I don't have as much or any pre-workout, for whatever reason because of my circumstances, I'll notice it. Right, don't get enough sleep, you'll notice it. I think I covered your question, so I'm going to move on to the next one.

Philip Pape: 39:18

The next one is from Luke P. He says what benefits do you get from low carb versus high carb? High carb is not always better, I'm assuming. So I was thinking of how to answer this question. I already talked about how the carbs are the main thing that changes when you go from gaining to maintaining, to losing, right. So my approach, my philosophy, is as long as you've got your protein, the fats and carbs are pretty flexible and there's no reason to lower the carbs just to lower carbs. Does that make sense? In other words, even when you are in a fat loss phase, we don't lower the carbs because low carbs better. We lower them because we don't have space for enough carbs, right, we're having. We need our protein and our fat. In some cases I actually want somebody to slightly lower their protein and increase their carbs if it gives them just that burst of energy they need. I guess what I'm saying is that all things equal. I would generally never want to lower carbs for the sake of it for any reason, but I would want to increase carbs for many reasons.

Philip Pape: 40:19

So when we say low carb and high carb, it's kind of like protein. It's very misleading. Like people talk about high protein. Well, most people are eating extremely, extremely low protein and I want people to eat moderate protein, but it looks high compared to the average population. I mean, whoa 25% of your calories has protein. That's huge. Well, it's only 25%. So is that really high protein or is it just much higher than the population?

Philip Pape: 40:42

Similarly, with carbs, like to me, if I'm getting a lot of protein and plenty of fat and then I'm eating 400 grams of carbs, is that high carb or is it just what I need and like filling in the rest of the energy equation right? So when you say high carb is not always better, I would agree with that statement when we are talking about the context of other macros. So if the carbs are taking away from your protein or fats in a detrimental way, then it's not better, but there's no case where I would say you need to lower your carbs, just to lower your carbs? Does that make sense? So hopefully I answered that the research definitely supports higher carbs for muscle building across the board.

Philip Pape: 41:21

Any study we see comparing low carb, comparing a low carb to a moderate high carb the moderate high carb wins out for sure when it comes to muscle building. So like that to me is not a question anymore and I see it anecdotally all the time. Having said that, if you just don't like to eat a lot of carbs, and it doesn't hurt you to lower the carbs and it gives you more protein because you're a big protein eater, that is a scenario I can get behind, and I know plenty of lifters like that who want to eat 250 grams of protein or 300 grams of protein and kind of moderate carbs. I like 200 something grams of carbs. I'm like, yeah, you got a lot of flex there and that's okay, that's okay. So that's my thoughts on that is, what are the trade-offs? What are your goals?

Allan: 41:58

Hi, my name is Alan and I just want to give a shout out to Philip, pape of Wits and Weights, for being a huge part of the foundation for my continued health and well-being. Philip exemplifies a nutrition coach who demonstrates how much he cares. Philip works tirelessly and with dedication to provide coaching, support and major content for us to use. He creates a practical approach from research and Philip empowers all of us to use food as quality for our health. He is skilled in how to assess and direct nutrition. Philip creates a community full of wisdom, support and camaraderie. In summary, philip Papers the real deal. He knows how to assess and direct nutrition and he continues to steer me in the right direction. Thank you, philip.

Philip Pape: 42:50

Emily asked a question about timing and travel. She said timing overall. What is your timing of carbs? Do you eat more in the am or pm? So I'm going to answer her questions one at a time.

Philip Pape: 43:02

So, timing of carbs carbs, I distribute them evenly when I'm not Dieting. When I'm in fat loss, however, I shift them to the morning because that's around my workout. If it's a Non-training day, I tend to eat them spread out evenly as well. Simple, right, it's as simple as that. Now, if you are the type of person who trains first thing in the morning and doesn't want to eat which there's a small percentage of people that do that you want a lot of carbs with your dinner. If you're the type of person that sleeps better with carbs at your meal, you want them at dinner. If you're the type of person that needs the carbs after your workout to recover from being drained of your glycogen, you might want more carbs after your workout. Get what I'm saying Depends. So me personally, distribute it evenly, except on training days, then, or except during fat loss, in which case more percentage of it like up to 50% of my carbs are going to be around training, and that's what I recommend.

Philip Pape: 44:04

When your carbs are tight. Put more of them are your go-to pre or post-workout snacks and or meals. I am super boring and simple. I eat a banana and a protein shake beforehand, and then I have some oatmeal with peanut butter afterward, and then lunch is not far behind to get more of my protein. I like to have a lot of protein with my lunch and dinner and because I'm having a nice big protein shake before my workout, I don't need a lot of protein right after it. Right, there's no such thing as the anabolic window anymore. You could distribute your protein however you want. The carbs are a little bit more important. So when we're talking carbs specifically, I love fruit before the workout because I can have it as close as like half an hour before my workout, very fast digesting, and then after my workout I like something a little more fiber, a little more tasty and comfort food style which is where the oatmeal comes in and plus a little bit of fat and taste from the peanut butter. I will say if I am gaining, I need even more calories. I will also add in HBCD, highly branched cyclic dextrin. It is a extremely digestible, very easy on the stomach form of carbs powder form that pretty much anyone can tolerate and it is a great intro workout as well. You can sip it or have it before your. I actually put it before, during and after when I'm gaining and trying to eat like 4,000 calories Carbs on travel, you asked.

Philip Pape: 45:19

This is still, emily. It's so easy to lose track when working and not controlling meals. Also, buffets at meetings tend to be carb heavy. What are your strategies? And, socially, how do you track without a scale next to your boss? Okay, there's a lot of questions here.

Philip Pape: 45:34

I guess it could be a whole topic on its own, and it's funny because I think, emily, you and I just talked about this on a group call in Physique University and I think that was about going to track meets or something right, where you didn't have enough time between traveling and everything to to have the food you wanted, um, and it was like four hours and they had hot dogs and other stuff staring you in the face, right. So it really does come down to meal planning, meal prepping and the logistics of it all. So you've got to just think ahead, use if-then strategies. If you know this is going to happen twice a week, then what is your strategy? Is it to have a cooler, ready to go, and then you pop it in your car. Is it to have snack-type foods in your purse? That is it For me. I know what you're talking about.

Philip Pape: 46:16

Buffets and meetings tend to be carb-heavy and they're not always the carbs that we want. They're often like muffins and stuff, maybe they're bagels or something. So if you know you're going to eat the meaty food, just again you got to plan for it and say maybe I'm going to bring my you know first four meat sticks or something for my protein or protein bar or something to go along with it. If they don't have meat options, you know sometimes there'll be sandwiches and you can like grab a bunch of the cold cuts and maybe eat half the bread. If you don't, if you're not trying to get that much, that many carbs, but it's it's planning. It's planning and like having if, then strategies. That's really all it is.

Philip Pape: 46:53

Your last question about tracking without a scale and next year boss. So two options. One is just take a picture or eyeball it and estimate. I mean, I do that all the time now. It's a skill that you build over time. You're like okay, this is a turkey sandwich and this is pasta salad, right, or whatever the buffet food is, or if it's just a lunch you packed and you didn't pre-measure it, which you could pre-measure it if it's at home, but if somebody cooked for you. Again, just estimate each of the main ingredients that have calories and put them in as grams. Macrofactor has a new AI feature where you can take a picture and it'll do it for you. It's like 90% accurate, which is plenty good enough for most people and you could. There's a text box so you can tell it generally what's in there, like no-transcript, all right.

Philip Pape: 47:40

Next question this is from Alan F. All right, mr Alan, everybody knows him from the Facebook group, for sure, and also Physique University. He says did you give thought to the glycemic index of the carbs you were utilizing? And then another question did you have a priority list of carbohydrate foods you were incorporating? I'm going to answer that one because it's easier. My priority list is just the simple list of foods that I like. That's it. So like if I were to provide some nuance on that, because this could be why you're asking somewhat is different foods have different levels of macros, right?

Philip Pape: 48:13

So rice is pure carbs, just like shrimp is pure protein, essentially. Beans, however, are carbs and protein. So if I were to prioritize, if I'm absolutely trying to have pure carbs, I'm going to have things like fruit and oats. Well, oats have protein too, but never hurts that protein. You know, rice, simple starches they could be refined, whole grains, but I mean simple, you know, like breads and pastas and whatnot. And I'll just, basically, it's just like I would do if I was trying to have dairy that was more protein than not. I would look at the protein density. Same thing with carbs what's the carb density? And then I don't stray from that. I'm fairly boring. I like to explore occasionally in the grocery store, but usually I just stick to okay, here are my five favorite fruits, here are my five or six favorite vegetables. I like oats, I like rice. Keep it simple. And I know you are. You are very, um, I'll say you love to explore the variety of foods out there and do lots of fancy recipes, um, just like Carol does in the group, and that's awesome too. Right, that's what you love to do.

Philip Pape: 49:12

But going back to your first question, did you give thought to the glycemic index of the carbs? Uh, the answer is no, but I used to. So I'm glad you brought that up, because I fell prey to a lot of these silly little things. Like I say silly, like I was going to say blood sugar and that's going to offend a lot of people. I think blood sugar is important but I don't think I don't think it takes a lot to do it right and then not have to think about it. In other words, like if you eat balanced meals and you have a lot of fiber, you're going to take care of your blood sugar as long as you're training right, as long as you're lifting weights and walking, so I don't want to give too much thought to it. I know some coaches and some folks even I've had on my show like they focus on that and and it can be a valuable tool for people who aren't aware of it, because then it says, okay, how do I, how do I improve that? But glycemic index has to do with you know as well. That's why I bring this up Insulin sensitivity, all of that it doesn't matter.

Philip Pape: 50:08

Once I discovered through learning the science that if you're lifting weights and you're walking inactive, that you're going to be highly insulin sensitive, it didn't matter. I could even eat a carb meal. My blood sugar will spike and it's fine when I'm low on calories. I don't do that, though, because what will happen is I'll get like an energy crash, and many of you listening if you feel that like 3 pm energy crash. Sometimes you go for a high energy food, like a candy bar, right, or chips or whatever for that reason, because your body's craving the energy.

Philip Pape: 50:34

But if you have balanced meals that are always protein and fiber first, you don't have to worry about glycemic index at all, and for anybody who knows GI, you know that it's like averaged out for the meal. So if you're having protein and fiber in there and some fats or whatever, it's going to bring the whole GI down for the meal. If you're diabetic, it's a different situation. You may have to be more conscious of it. So the answer is I didn't really. I went down those rabbit holes sometimes, but I was just trying to avoid carbs in general. I wasn't like oh, give me the low GI carbs, not the high. Now, I didn't do that. If that's a concern for you, I'm not the guy necessarily to talk to, because I don't think it's necessary for most people. Or if you're training, walking, eating, balanced meals, yeah, and then nutrient density, yeah.

Philip Pape: 51:14

So I think that's it. I think glycemic load is what we call it, right, the context of the whole food matrix. That's more important. Okay, next question is from Alex B.

Philip Pape: 51:22

So this is going back to the original listener who wrote in and this is another part of her question. She said I think it's a combo of habit and learn, fear or anxiety response from years of indoctrination. I know better, but knowledge only gets you so far. I've done the prepping, but not logging ahead. There are basically always potatoes, beans and bread ready to go. In any case, I think you're right. I don't have a knowledge gap, but an accountability one, and I and many others default to maladaptive habits and systems even when we know better. So I wanted to throw this in and kind of close the loop on all of this, because for many of us, myself included, no matter how much we know, the right thing is to do. We need that accountability, and accountability comes in so many ways, right, you can even build self accountability by using an app, like I use macro factor initially for my first year and a half of nutrition. I just use that. Then my accountability came in the form of getting a coaching certification, having clients and I have worked with coaches, like informally, for my nutrition as well. I haven't actually worked one-on-one with a nutrition coach for a period of time. I've been thinking about it for some of the advanced things, but, at the same time, I'm confident in my nutrition and this is the thing you got to assess. Like, if you really enjoy something and you love learning about it and you're able to be consistent with it, then you're good. You're good. If, however, something like strength training, you're constantly missing your training sessions, constantly moving things around, never sure what to follow, like you just have all this uncertainty and lack of confidence around it, or you feel frustrated and inconsistent, that's where you need something, whether that is a free Facebook group, a friend or accountability partner, a coach, a community, paid free, it doesn't like they're all different forms. Obviously, I provide various forms of this because everyone has different budgets and needs and whatnot, and some people can shift between them, right? I've had folks that came into the Facebook group link in the show notes totally free. They saw what things were about, they started to learn, they started to listen to podcasts and they're like okay, interesting.

Philip Pape: 53:20

Well, I had this really big goal and I'm kind of struggling to get there, even though I know what to do. Let me join Physique University and get motivated by people, but also be able to reach out to Philip and get some more personalized guidance. You know, have a plan, have a way to diagnose issues along the way, and they'll do that and they'll get a great result. Or they'll do that and they'll say, all right, I'm getting a result, but I had these very specific issues for me related to my hormones, my thyroid medications, my age, my equipment access. Maybe I'm kind of shy and I don't want to be sharing everything with a group, right, like there's different reasons and they'll say, okay, I want to work with you one-on-one. Or, again, there are things in your life where you may be able to hold yourself accountable. It's all different, it's a spectrum.

Philip Pape: 54:07

So why I brought this up Alex is because she acknowledged that she has the knowledge but has a lot of habits and they're hard to break sometimes without that accountability. So I just signed up a couple of clients, this week in fact, who are very much like that. They are advanced clients. They have been training and learning and applying nutrition and tracking macros and everything for years and have gotten great results. Some of them have competed. You know bodybuilding and stuff like that, but they know that they can learn more. There's always subtle things that they need to to reach out to someone else for. Okay. Anyway, behavior changes is is is so important in this space. The role of like cognitive dissonance where what we believe doesn't match what we're experiencing and we're trying to resolve that when it comes to shifting our diets is really, really important, along with the role of community and accountability.

Philip Pape: 54:53

All right, I think this episode is way past the time I wanted it to be. Hopefully, I'm able to edit it to be shorter, but I think the big thought from all of this and I don't even know if I covered half my story, to be honest is that what I finally learned around 2021, when I launched the podcast, was that the sustainability and the flexibility are the main driver of all of this, like your ability to adapt and go with the flow and go with life, and if what you're doing does not have that flexibility, it's going to be a problem at some point. It's going to be a problem I guarantee it If you're following strict keto or any other highly restrictive approach. And don't tell me carnivore is like just wonderful and it works for you and it solved all your problems and I could do this the rest of my life. Maybe, 0.1% of people maybe. But in reality you come to me a year later and tell me that you're still eating only these three foods and I'm using a little exaggeration, I realize, but it's kind of what it is. You know, it's kind of like a kid who only eats like six things, right, doesn't eat their fruits and vegetables. That's carnivore.

Philip Pape: 55:59

But any of these approaches are highly restrictive and when you're living that way, you know what it's stressing you out. You are in this state of like, constant vigilance, like what can I eat? What's the next poison or toxin lurking around the corner that I have to avoid? Man, isn't that stressful? Doesn't that sound awful, like an awful way to live? And if you're living right that way right now, why do it to yourself, right, every single time you eat? You're like it's this Machiavellian calculation combined with extreme discipline and willpower. You know, social events are these minefields where it's all temptation. Like every social event, all it feels like is constant temptation and saying no, and the mental bandwidth that you have to have to maintain that is just enormous. It's enormous.

Philip Pape: 56:41

So I'm getting my soapbox here, because it's a call to action to anyone listening that you can have it all. You can balance your approach to all of this. You can include carbs, you can get nutritional freedom. You just have to have the flexibility and you can still track macros, prioritize protein, make whole food choices, but without rigid rules that govern every bite. It's guardrails, it's structure, it's targets, it's ranges, it's not eat this, not that it is very different. If you want to argue with me that it's the same, I'd like you to try them both out and tell me that they are the same, and if they are to you, then that's your experience. And even with that, I would say that there are other ways to have those guardrails and flexibility, just with a slightly different approach or method that doesn't require cutting foods out.

Philip Pape: 57:30

And so, instead of thinking, okay, I need to follow this diet, think how do I build a sustainable lifestyle that supports my goals, that enhances what I'm doing? Doing? Quality of life is so important, it's so important, and you got to live with what you're doing and be happy with it. You don't want to just tolerate with misery what you're doing. Think about it. Are you just tolerating your diet right now? Are you miserable or are you living with it happily? You know, I don't mean the roses and sunshine and it's perfect every day, of course. I don't mean that. I mean you're satisfied, you're like, yeah, I can do this the rest of my life. There's always a little effort involved with everything, of course, but this is way more freeing and flexible than the other approaches.

Philip Pape: 58:10

So I guess, as we wrap up this self-interview but I guess it ended up being a Q&A what I want to emphasize is that I was looking for a diet like the one true diet for years Keto, atkins I didn't even mention SlimFast, but I did that Paleo and at the end of the day, it wasn't about the right diet, it was about the right approach for me, which means your diet itself evolves. So it's principle-based rather than method-based, and that means you can have multiple nutritional approaches, not only for different people but for you, at different stages, for different times of the year, for different contexts and objectives and goals. That's the power of all this, because now you're not fixed into one approach. So let's say you're currently thriving on a low-carb approach and it aligns with your goals Fantastic, like. I'm not going to judge you for that, but if you're staying low carb because of fear rather than like preferences or results, even, I hope this gives you the permission you want to experiment, to evolve your approach.

Philip Pape: 59:11

That's what we are all about, because the social media world, the nutrition world, is just full of zealots who promote their preferred diet as the only way to eat. They do it for views, for clicks, for engagement and for money and I'm not against money. I'm a capitalist through and through. I love money, just like you but I wouldn't do this shameful self-promotion and something that actually harms people for that. Now, I've been the person who talks people's ear off about how great low-carb is. This was before it ever became a business for me and in hindsight it was exhausting and isolating.

Philip Pape: 59:50

And I think there's tremendous freedom in letting go of dogma of any kind dietary dogma, training dogma and embrace the idea of flexibility. Not that we're all special snowflakes or anything like that. We're all like super, super, super unique that what works for you doesn't work for me. The principles are there. Principles are universal. It's the dogma of fixed methods and approaches.

Philip Pape: 1:00:13

I think that your relationship with food should be a great part of your life, like it should just be a good, fun part of your life and something you enjoy, not constraining. Your diet serves you. It's not the other way around. Your knowledge is going to continue to grow as your experience grows, as you listen to podcasts, get involved in communities, learn, learn, learn. The evidence is going to keep changing as well. You know what we know about the evidence, I should say, and that's to me very exciting.

Philip Pape: 1:00:41

So if you found value today, if you stuck through this long, if you want to continue the conversation, just join our Facebook group. That's all I'm going to ask today. Just search for it in Facebook or click the link in the show notes, and that is where questions like the ones we covered today get discussed. All the time you can share your journey with carbs or any other diet you want. You know some people are there who are doing carnivore and they're like yeah, I love it, that's great.

Philip Pape: 1:01:04

Come in there. We're not going to judge you. We're going to present all the evidence and let you decide for yourself. As long as you experiment, promise me that you will try, that you will make an attempt and not just assume something will or won't work until you've tried it. And if you haven't tried it you. You're going to find support there, you're not going to find judgment. That's my point. So Wits and Weights Facebook group link in the show notes and I look forward to seeing you there. Until next time, keep using your wits lifting those weights and remember the best diet isn't the one with the most zealous following. It's the one that works for your body and your goals and your life. I'll talk to you next time here on the Wits and Weights podcast.

The Hidden Roadblock That Stalled My Metabolism and Fat Loss (Critical Path) | Ep 321

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If you're struggling with fat loss that's slower than expected despite doing "everything right," this episode helps you figure out why.

I discuss my personal experience in my recent 7-week mini-cut and how a seemingly minor change in daily habits became the limiting factor, resulting in slower fat loss than in the past.

Text this episode to a friend who might be struggling with their progress!

Learn to identify your own Critical Path... the one thing currently constraining your progress regardless of how well you execute everything else.

Main Takeaways:

• The Critical Path concept identifies what's truly limiting your progress

• Small changes in daily habits can significantly impact your results

• Data tracking is essential for uncovering hidden roadblocks

• The most effective intervention often requires less willpower than you think

• Your limiting factors shift over time as circumstances change

Timestamps:

0:01 - What is critical path and how does it relate to fat loss?
 6:50 - Philip's personal fat loss case study
11:59 - Why limiting factors change throughout your fitness journey
18:00 - Creating solutions for your specific situation
21:14 - How to identify your own Critical Path
24:51 - Working smarter and more efficiently for fat loss

Text this episode to a friend who might be enjoy it!

The One Thing Holding Back Your Fat Loss Isn’t What You Think

Most people who hit a fat loss plateau assume they need to push harder: drop calories, train more, or overhaul everything. But what if you’re already doing most things right—and something smaller, less obvious is the real reason your progress is stalled?

That’s exactly what happened to me. I just finished a seven-week mini cut, and despite years of coaching experience, meticulous tracking, and dialed-in habits, my results were slower than usual. So I did what any engineer would do: I ran a system check. And what I found was a single variable that had quietly shifted over time and was stalling everything else.

This is what I call the critical path—a concept from project management that explains how one weak link can hold up the whole operation. Let’s talk about how it applies to fat loss—and how you can find your own.

What Is the “Critical Path” in Fat Loss?

In engineering, the critical path is the sequence of tasks that determines how long a project takes. If anything on that path gets delayed, the entire project gets delayed—no matter how well everything else is going.

Your fat loss journey works the same way. There are multiple variables in play—calories, protein, strength training, movement, sleep, stress, digestion, adherence—and most of them can flex a bit without completely derailing progress. But one of them is probably the constraint that’s holding everything else back.

Identify that, and everything else becomes easier. Miss it, and no amount of perfect macros or extra gym sessions will fix the problem.

My Critical Path

Here’s what I discovered: My step count had dropped from around 12,000 a day (during my last fat loss phase) to more like 8,000. That 4,000-step drop may not sound like much, but it equates to 150 fewer calories burned per day. Over a month, that’s 4,500 calories—more than a pound of fat that wasn’t going anywhere.

Why did this happen? I’d been working more at my desk, shifting into a more sedentary daily rhythm without realizing it. My training, nutrition, sleep, and stress management hadn’t changed—but this one habit had. And it mattered a lot.

Once I got back to averaging 12,000 steps, fat loss picked back up. But not because I worked harder—just because I removed a constraint.

Your Critical Path Might Be Something Else

Here are common “hidden” roadblocks I see in clients:

• Inconsistent calorie intake: Even if your average is on target, wild swings day-to-day can impact metabolism and satiety.

• Poor sleep timing or quality: Not just hours of sleep, but inconsistent bed/wake times can disrupt hormones and increase cravings.

• Low daily movement (NEAT): Especially during dieting, when the body tries to conserve energy. You might move less without realizing it.

• Stress: High life stress can raise cortisol, impact recovery, and cause water retention, which skews the scale.

• Training effort: Not pushing hard enough (or going too hard too often) can blunt stimulus and adaptation.

And sometimes the roadblock is psychological: perfectionism, fear of failure, or believing you're “just stuck” can keep you spinning your wheels.

How to Find Your Critical Path

1. Track the Right Variables

You don’t need to log every single thing, but you do need consistent data. I recommend tracking:

• Calories and macros

• Daily steps

• Body weight and measurements

• Biofeedback: sleep, stress, hunger, recovery, performance

Even if you're not using a full macro tracker, jot down meals, protein/fiber levels, and mood. We need inputs and outputs to identify constraints.

2. Look for Recent Changes

Review your data and habits over time. What’s different now vs. when things were working better? Did you stop walking as much? Has stress gone up? Has your bedtime shifted? Look for gradual drifts—the frog-in-boiling-water stuff you didn’t notice happening.

3. Run an Experiment

Once you suspect your critical path, test it. Pick one variable to change (like increasing steps by 3,000/day) and hold everything else steady for 2 weeks. See what happens.

The key is small, controlled inputs—not blowing up your whole plan.

4. Reassess Frequently

Your constraint can and will shift. As you lose weight, your TDEE drops. As seasons change, your schedule changes. Maybe it’s NEAT now, but next month it’s your training intensity. Stay curious and stay data-driven.

Less Effort, Better Results

The beauty of this approach is that your “stuck point” often isn’t the thing that requires more restriction or discipline. It’s usually something simpler and healthier—like getting outside more, sleeping better, or walking during calls.

For me, fixing my critical path meant I didn’t have to slash calories to keep losing fat. I got to eat more, feel better, and still make progress. That’s energy flux in action: move more, eat more, burn more, feel better.

This is what engineering mindset is all about—working smarter, not harder.

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Transcript

Philip Pape: 0:01

If you feel like your fat loss is going too slowly or stalled out, or it's harder this time than it was last time, this episode is for you. I recently faced the exact same situation during a mini cut. Despite doing everything right, or so, I thought, my progress was slower than in previous cuts, and then I realized what was causing it and I thought let me talk to the listener about uncovering the thing that's holding you back, the one thing that could be what's called the critical path. It's a concept from engineering and project management where, if this one thing isn't right, everything is going to take longer. So, while, yes, I will share my critical path, I'm also going to teach you to identify your own so you can have much more success going forward. Welcome to Wits and Weights, the show that helps you build a strong, healthy physique using evidence, engineering and efficiency. I'm your host, philip Pape, and today we're looking at a real-world case study. It is my own, my own recent fat loss journey. It was a seven-week mini-cut, and I thought it'd be a great example of how I am not perfect and how I still can run into my own roadblocks, even as a coach and someone who's done this for a long time using a powerful engineering concept that I've used for many years, especially when developing schedules, and it's called critical path. And don't worry, we're not going to talk schedules, we are going to talk about how to use this concept to uncover the thing holding you back.

Philip Pape: 1:33

Many of you know that I love data, I like to track religiously. It's part of my engineering mindset and recently I noticed that, of all the variables in my fitness data, the one thing that changed, and changed quite significantly, was my average daily step count. Now, I kind of knew this inherently and intuitively because I track it every day and I'm like you know, over the over the last year and a half, I'm like man, you know, I've really got to get back to that 12,000 steps I used to have and it's been more in the eight to 9,000 steps a day and I thought, well, it's not a big deal, it's still plenty of steps. I'm still active, I train, I do all the things I eat well, et cetera. But that's a 25% reduction in my NEAT, in my non-exercise activity thermogenesis, and you would think, okay, it's not a big deal, but it actually has a big impact on your fat loss and that's just one thing.

Philip Pape: 2:22

I don't want to make this episode about walking specifically. I really want to make it about how a seemingly minor change in one variable and I know again, 4,000 steps you may say, well, no, that's actually a pretty big change, but kind of drifted over time and I didn't really give it another thought as to how big it was impacting my results. But you may have one variable that had has essentially become what engineers call the critical path in your fat loss approach or your journey, and I'm gonna break down what that means, why it matters, how identifying your own critical path could be that breakthrough you need. And I think it's important because you might be saying, well, no, it's obvious, I know why. You may not know why, and there's a way to kind of analyze what that might be Now, before we get into it.

Philip Pape: 3:05

If you have found yourself stuck in a fat loss plateau, or maybe you're in there one right now and you think you're doing everything right and again by think, I'm not trying to gaslight you, because I was there as well I thought I was doing everything right Um, and sometimes you just need a little bit of insight, a little bit of a extra third party perspective. So, if today resonates with you. If this episode is valuable, I just want you to text it to a friend. That's all I'm asking today. I'm not trying to pitch you anything else. I want you to text this episode to a friend who is struggling with their progress. Anything, I don't care how they, what language they use, if they say it's weight loss, if they say it's their diet, if they say it's their mindset, with all of this said with all, with all of this, with emotional eating, whatever, text this episode to a friend and support them and say, hey, here's a fresh perspective on how to kind of think about this. And and you know, if you're not convinced yet, listen through the whole episode and then I'll ask you again to text it to someone if you liked it. But, like sharing, sharing knowledge is one of the most powerful ways that we can help each other succeed. That's what this show is all about, and I hope you will join me in that mission of just texting this episode to a friend. Go, hit the share button in your podcast app, or you could take a screenshot, tag me in social media and share it that way. However, you want to do it All right.

Philip Pape: 4:14

So let's get into today's topic and define what we mean by critical path. So in project management, in engineering, the critical path represents the sequence of dependent tasks. Okay, so the things you have to do, like if you're building a house, it might be buying the material, laying the foundation, et cetera, et cetera, and it's that sequence that determines the minimum time needed to complete a project. So, again, if you're building a house, the concrete is absolutely needed before you can build the foundation, but the windows aren't needed till much later. So the windows are not going to hold you up at least early on. They might hold you up later on. And so any delay in the tasks along that critical path again the sequence of things that determines the minimum time you need from start to finish. Any delay is what is obviously going to delay the whole thing. It's going to make the project take longer. And then all the other tasks that are outside that critical path have some what we call float or slack, meaning they can delay a bit, they can be a little bit off or less than perfect or less than ideal, without impacting the overall timeline.

Philip Pape: 5:23

Now, when we apply this concept to physique development, especially fat loss, we are essentially looking for the limiting factor, the element in your system that is constraining progress, right, it is preventing you from moving forward, regardless of how well you execute everything else. And so for lots of people, myself included, we tend to focus heavily on the things that we think matter most, like our calorie intake, our deficit, our training, but sometimes the critical path actually lies elsewhere. In my case, I track every day. I track my food, I track my measurements, I track my training, I track my steps and I plan everything out and I make sure to really hit the targets pretty darn closely. I don my training, I track my steps and I plan everything out and I make sure to really hit the targets pretty darn closely. I don't mind doing that, I love doing it. I have a very stress-free way of doing it. It only takes me a few minutes a day. I use meal prep, all the things Always hit my protein, always maintain my training, and if I have to miss a day, I'm going to shift it to another day. I get adequate sleep and there's an asterisk on that because I've always gotten around six and a half to seven hours of sleep, which for me, for my HRV, for my stress, for my performance, has been steady state If I got seven and a half or eight. Would I perform that much better? Potentially, potentially, but it's always been like that. To me, that is not a variable that has changed. I manage stress reasonably well by really all measures.

Philip Pape: 6:50

I was executing my fat loss phase across the board, the way it needs to be executed, and I've done multiple cuts in the past. Under this situation where I had just come out of a bulk, I spent like I don't know six, seven months in a bulk and then I say, okay, I'm going to switch over to fat loss phase. I'm not even going to go to maintenance first, I'm just going to switch because I know how to do it and I'm going to do it. However, my progress was slower and the problem is I wanted I had a timeline, which is also a different issue. We could talk about it in another episode. I had a timeline because we're going on a vacation and I wanted to just trim off some of the fat that I gained. I was aiming for about 15 pounds. I ended up getting about 10. Okay, it's still 10 pounds. I'm thrilled with that. I'm thrilled that I could do that, that I still have control over my physique, all the things that we talk about.

Philip Pape: 7:32

It just wasn't as fast as I anticipated because my body didn't respond as aggressively or as well as it had in the past. And when I looked at everything and I said, man, is there anything that's vastly different, I said, you know, it's the step count. It's the step count because the last time I did a cut I was averaging 11, 12,000. Now I'm like eight or nine and sometimes I have some even lower days than that.

Philip Pape: 7:53

You know I'm a busy guy. This is not an excuse. I'm relating to you as the listener. I'm busy, I work all day. Uh, I'm flitting around from call to call meeting to meeting. I'm oftentimes having to sit in front of my computer like an actual desktop to get stuff done, and I do have a standing desk. So if I use that I get more steps. Sometimes I get so immersed in my work I don't do that. So there's a lot of opportunities here, easily, I'm going to say, for me to get back to 12,000 on average. In fact, recently I've had multiple 12, 13, 14,000 days and it didn't take much effort. It just took some intentionality, which is often what we are missing or we get off track.

Philip Pape: 8:29

Anyway, that's what I noticed. A big difference was about three to 4,000 steps fewer per day than the last time I did my fat loss phase. Now let's put that in perspective 3,000 steps right, just being conservative, that represents about 150 calories of reduced daily energy expenditure. That's a little over a thousand calories a week. That's 4,500 calories a month. That's more than a pound of potential fat loss each month. That may not happen, all things equal, simply because of the reduction in daily movement. Now it was probably more than the 3,000 when we look at the delta. Furthermore, I have found that when you are a little bit less active with your walking, you seem to burn even fewer calories than expected from that inactivity.

Philip Pape: 9:14

I'm not going to dive into why that might be and also everyone's different, but when you think of even one pound a month and I'm talking about a seven-week mini cut that's two pounds. Well, that's two pounds. I didn't account for not losing. Now I told you I lost 10 instead of 15. Okay, we're talking about a five pound difference. There's water and glycogen differences. There's all sorts of little things in the noise.

Philip Pape: 9:35

Who knows exactly the point is. I know for a fact that my walking had a big difference. I just know because in the past it was easier and nothing else has changed. Now this wasn't conscious, right. It kind of happened gradually and unconsciously as my work patterns changed more desk time, more online meetings, fewer reasons to move throughout the day and I didn't have, let's say, a fully developed system in place to keep the step count high when those things change.

Philip Pape: 10:02

I've talked before about how your environment changes a lot and we can't just sit on our laurels and assume that our current system will apply exactly the same. The principles apply, but the methods and the triggers and the habits may have to shift. And because my step count had declined gradually in a sense, right, if I look at my curve over the years, it's like average of 12, then 11 and a half, then 11, then 10, right, it just kind of drifted. I hadn't registered as a significant change. It's like the I hate this analogy but the frog in the boiling water. You start cold and you gradually heat it up and the frog doesn't notice it and then it boils to death. I know, terrible, gruesome, but you get the idea.

Philip Pape: 10:38

So here's where the concept of critical path becomes really, really powerful and effective, despite what I'll call I hate to use the word perfect, but dialed in execution, on my nutrition and training and everything else. My walking habit had become a limiting factor in my overall fat loss equation. Right, because it directly affects my metabolism, how many calories I burn and thus how much I can eat to be in the same deficit, and I assumed that to get into that deficit I could eat X, but instead I had to eat X minus whatever calories I now wasn't burning, and because I wasn't, of course I didn't lose fat as quickly. Now, no matter how well I executed all of this, the reduction in energy was setting a constraint or upper limit on my potential progress, and so this realization made me think about this and why I'm doing this episode that you know, in a fat loss phase, the critical path isn't fixed right. It could actually shift around between different variables, depending on your circumstances, like if we look in engineering, when I deal with like big, complicated schedules, the critical path can change. Because what if some other task all of a sudden becomes three times longer than you expected? Right, some supplier says oh, I'm sorry, the part won't be in for three months, we thought it was going to be two weeks, and now all of a sudden, that becomes a critical path.

Philip Pape: 11:59

Same thing with our fat loss. You know, nutrition might be your critical path. Maybe sleep becomes your critical path If all of a sudden work gets really stressful and your life is hectic and all of a sudden you can't get enough sleep right. Stress, same thing. The intensity of your training, your ability to train, where you train right. There's so many things and it's kind of like they jump around like whack-a-mole and hopefully you can do fat loss in a time when things are relatively stable, which is why I like timing your fat loss and muscle gain and maintenance with the seasons of your life and the seasons of the year and finding a relatively quiet time to do fat loss when you can reduce all of this variability. So let's talk about, I guess, why this all happens. Right, our bodies are very complex and they adapt. Our bodies are adaptive.

Philip Pape: 12:46

We've talked about metabolic adaptation or, if you're new to this podcast, it is the idea that your body will respond to the effect of everything that's coming in and it does so to try to maintain homeostasis, stability, survival, right. And when you're in a fat loss phase, you're doing what? Well, you're creating an energy deficit. You're burning more energy than you consume and you do that from either or decreasing what you eat, which is inevitably gonna have to happen, and or increasing your energy expenditure, with the caveat that you're not doing it in a stressful way like running, where it could actually backfire and reduce your expenditure. We're talking about general movement, walking, not sitting as much, et cetera.

Philip Pape: 13:26

Now many of us focus on the intake side because that is, like, seems more controllable, right? We track our food, we count our calories, we hit our macros and for many of you, this has been the problem for your whole life when you've tried to diet, is you do it on the calorie side? You try to. I don't want to say crash diet Not everybody does that, but everybody tries to cut something. You restrict something. You're like I just got to get those calories down, that's what's going to do it. Or and or you make it even worse by running more and more stress to your body. Now what if I told you that for most people, especially if you've been dieting for a while, the expenditure side is probably your critical path right now. Okay, not the intake side. I can take anyone and just show them that, with tracking and a little bit of planning assuming you don't have some massive emotional eating issues to deal with, which is a separate topic.

Philip Pape: 14:16

Most people can get into some decent control of their food, which is great, because many of us don't even have that right. However, it's not enough, because when we diet, our bodies naturally try to conserve energy, and it does so in multiple ways. First of all, you're losing weight, so you're just carrying around less mass, so you're going to burn less. Secondly, it downregulates your hormones. That's called metabolic adaptation. You can't do anything about that. And then, thirdly, the big thing you can do something about is non-exercise activity thermogenesis.

Philip Pape: 14:45

And guess what? When you diet, you oftentimes do less of this unconsciously, not just less walking, but less movement in general. And so this goes back to my theory, which is pretty well supported by working with so many clients, and what the evidence says, that during fat loss, you're going to move less. And even if your step count is the same, you might be moving less, but if your step count drops, you might be even moving less, less. So kind of what I mean by that is you get in a mode of just you're not as active, it's not as fitness oriented, versus when you walk more, like think about it when you lace up your shoes or when you walk around a lot throughout the day. You just have this mindset of like, moving, of being active, even if you're working. If you're doing, it's like no, I got to get up and get moving, and it's just this thing, right.

Philip Pape: 15:33

If you're, if you're down from 12 to 8,000 steps or down to even 6,000 steps, and you have some really low days, like three or four, where you're just sitting all day at the computer, you're not in that same mental state and you actually start to downregulate your other movement, your, your fidgeting, your not unconscious movement, the things you don't really count as steps but they might count as steps on your watch, whatever, and all of this is kind of an adaptation to conserve energy, um, and and you're you're basically reinforcing that by your, by moving less consciously, if that makes sense. So simply by moving less, you're almost telling your body like we don't want to be moving here, um, and that's, that's an adaptation. So if you're tracking your food, and let's say you are tracking your movement but you're not trying to change it right, or it got worse since the last time you did a fat loss phase and your body's compensating for the reduced intake, reducing energy expenditure that could definitely be causing a stall, right, and that's what happened to me. And again, that's specific to walking and NEAT. But it's because NE is such a powerful lever and sometimes your habits can shift without you realizing it. Now, the good news is, once you could identify that and, by the way, if you're listening to the show right now, I would like you to do that Like, identify what your critical path is.

Philip Pape: 16:47

It could be something having nothing to do with movement. Your critical path could absolutely be, on the nutrition side One, for example, many people are very inconsistent with their intake. Even if you're hitting the intended calorie intake for the week, the average daily intake if your intake fluctuates a lot let's say it's 500 up and 500 down day to day in terms of calories, that could cause your body to reduce its expenditure. It's fascinating, right? It's like you're eating the same amount of food as if you distributed evenly, but because of the way you're eating it, your body actually might burn fewer calories, thus putting you in less of a deficit than someone else who ate in a very consistent way, right? How about your sleep patterns If you're not going to bed and waking up at the same time every day, but you used to, even if you have the same hours of sleep, that could cause your body to conserve energy, to ramp up your hunger hormones, et cetera. Something is going on that's causing your expenditure to be lower than it was in the past or, for those of you doing this for the first time, just be aware of these affect your expenditure period and could be the reason you're stalling out. Right, it's nothing wrong with the principles, it's just identifying the critical path and then taking action to address it. And so for me, this is okay.

Philip Pape: 18:00

Now I'm gradually, intentionally increasing my daily step count back to closer to my baseline of 12,000. That is my target. And now every day, if I'm less than half that by midday, I know for sure. I want to get a walk-in Again if I can. If not, I'm going to get creative. I'm going to get creative. I'm going to use my standup desk with the treadmill or I'm going to pace a lot for my next call. Whatever I can do in a way that feels fairly natural and enjoyable, that keeps me moving, I'm going to do Um, and so that's walking again. I'm focusing kind of on my situation, but I'm giving you inspiration to do this, for yourself to say, okay, what is my critical path and what am I going to do to put in place a habit so there's less friction to do it and I'm not telling myself I just have to do it? No, you want to make it where it's almost automatic, right For me.

Philip Pape: 18:52

When I do any calls that are on my phone rather than on a computer, I'm going to walk around period, like that is just a thing I do. I don't even think about it Like oh, I got a Zoom call coming up and this is the kind I don't need to share my screen or anything. I'm going to go on my phone and I'm just going to walk around on it. Right, movement snacks that's another way to do it. When it comes to walking, like always taking breaks and just kind of walking around and just thinking about being on your feet for the vast majority of the time and you know, sitting far less than you're standing and walking. And then there's all the other things that I'm not going to get into related to walking specifically.

Philip Pape: 19:24

The point is that the relatively small changes that help, that cause my expenditure to drop, are the same small changes that can I get them back up to my previous baseline without some major overhaul in my schedule or lifestyle and in the engineering world, when we'd have a critical path that would start to be threatened or extended, we'd say, okay, what's a big low-hanging fruit? Can we talk to a supplier and negotiate a different approach so that they can get us the hardware sooner right? Or can we go get this more skilled resource or person over here to add to the project, to help shorten our timeline on the software development or whatever it is? So what is that for you? How can you apply this concept to your own physique development journey? Well, I'm going to give you some prescription, prescriptive steps here. The first step, of course, always is data collection and tracking. You know I would say this, but even um, let's see, I had.

Philip Pape: 20:14

I had a guest on recently. I don't know if her episode has come out yet, oh yeah, it did. Christina McClurkin right, she was on talking about how her clients don't even track macros, but they track their meals and like how they feel with their meals and how much protein and fiber they're getting. So they're still tracking. At the end of the day, you still have to collect the data somehow. The way you do it is going to be, is going to have to fit with your style and desire, and again, with me and my clients and our physique university.

Philip Pape: 20:41

It's very straightforward. You know macros, calories, uh, body measurements, daily movement steps, biofeedback, like sleep and stress levels, perform, performance, recovery, energy, hunger. I know I'm listing off a lot of things. I'm just rattling them off Progress photos, training, performance, recovery, et cetera. We make it really easy to do. I make it very simple for my clients to do, but for you it's like what do you need to track that you're not tracking now that could be causing issues with your expenditure or your food and your intake that you're not aware of, because if you're not aware of them, you can't even go to the next step.

Philip Pape: 21:14

Now, once you're collecting data across the variables that you want, you'll be better equipped to identify the factor. That's your current critical path, and maybe you're listening to this episode thinking OK, that's where I'm at. I've been tracking my data. Now what do I do? Well, next you're going to look for anomalies or changes in your data. No-transcript.

Philip Pape: 21:41

Go into Apple health or Google whatever it's called Google health. Go into your spreadsheet, go into your macro factor, like wherever you have graphs or data, and just stretch out the time period back to the right duration and see what the difference is. Actually, apple health has this cool feature where it automatically will notify you hey, we've noticed a trend change in your weight or your steps. It will actually tell you that, but it's just kind of ad hoc. You kind of want to do this yourself. You could even look at secondary factors like resting heart rate.

Philip Pape: 22:10

I mean, if your resting heart rate has jumped by, let's say, five or 10 beats a minute versus where it used to be and you haven't gained weight so that's the caveat, because gaining weight can cause it to go up that could be that you're not getting as much movement as before and it may not be obvious from your step count. It may be the type of movement. Maybe you're just taking a lot of casual walks and you used to do more brisk walks or wear rucksack or something like that right, or you used to go on an incline or live in a hilly area. Now you live in a city in a flat area. Very cool insights you can draw from this stuff Sleep quality. If you have an aura ring or you wear some sort of tracker or wearable, you might see changes in HRV or body temperature or core body temperature, right, of course, step count we've talked about that's a very easy one to track Stress levels. That's like the resilience, the HRV.

Philip Pape: 22:59

Anyway, the critical path is sometimes where you don't expect it. It's kind of like hiding in plain sight in the data and you're just not looking at the data or paying enough attention to it or you haven't noticed consciously that it's shifted over time. And I help people with this all the time, like again and not to pitch our program all the time, but in Physique University, one thing that we have is a post that says here's how to post all your data so we can help you. And it says make sure to have your metabolism, your calorie intake, your expenditure, your deficit over time, whatever some key things your weight trend, and based on that, we can then look at your data and see what's hiding in plain sight that you might be missing. And then, when you said, aha, eureka, I found it right. Now you can test your hypothesis with an intervention.

Philip Pape: 23:45

That's the next step is experiment on it. If you suspect your reduced movement might be the factor, increase your step count for two weeks by a decent amount, you know. Increase it by like, I want to say like 4,000 steps a day let's say that's a couple miles while keeping everything else constant. Treat it as an experiment, or a challenge, if you will, and monitor the results. Now, it may not change things immediately, there might be a lag, but it might be enough for you to say, hey, I think this is the reason why. Um, I've seen that when I go up, my step count goes up. About a week later I start to see it. Relieve my expenditure a bit. My expenditure starts to climb back and again.

Philip Pape: 24:21

Remember, critical path is not static. It can change as your circumstances change, because what limited you six months ago or a year, that last time you did the fat loss phase, may be totally different than what's limiting you today, and that is why you have to always be tracking and always be reassessing and always be experimenting. All right, and the cool thing about this whole thing listen up. Listen up. Sometimes the thing you need to change requires a lot less thinking, willpower, effort than what you thought you had to change. So, like for me, adding daily steps is not that hard.

Philip Pape: 24:51

If I had to go ahead and drop another 300 calories a day on my food, that'd just be a slog. I'd be like, no, I'm not doing it. And in fact, guess what happened during my mini cut, as my expenditure was dropping faster than I expected. Of course my calories would have to come down to keep me in my intended deficit. I just didn't want to do that. I didn't want to eat that low amount of calories. It would not be good psychologically for my energy, for anything. And so I compromised. I said you know what I'm going to eat, more like what I would normally eat in fat loss phase, which for me is like 1800 to 2000 calories, when I'm going pretty darn aggressively Cause I burned, say, 2800, 3000 at maintenance. And I said I'm just going to keep it there and just take the results as they come and work on my step count instead, right, and toward the end of the fat loss phase actually started to pick up a little bit, which was a good indicator that it was working.

Philip Pape: 25:39

And this can go for any goal that you have, like any leverage point that allows you to get better results with less effort or more efficient. Effort is a good way to put it. Is is a game changer, isn't it Like? Think about that. Most people attempt to improve everything and then they spend all their willpower and attention across the board where they're getting very little for each bit of effort. It's that 80-20 rule. Instead of focusing on the 20%, that gives you 80% of the results. They focus on like 90% of things and put all their effort into that and they still only get a small improvement. So if you can understand critical path, you can be much more targeted and efficient.

Philip Pape: 26:20

And in my case, the you know the walking more wasn't just easier than eating less, it was healthier, it was more sustainable. There were other benefits. It was like no, this is the energy flux thing that we talk about, where let's eat more to move more. Let's not eat less and move more. Let's not eat less and like run ourselves in the ground trying to lose fat and restrict and all that. Let's try to live a higher energy life, moving and training.

Philip Pape: 26:43

Not moving in a stressful way, but moving in a very healthy way, like walking, some sprinting, doing your chores, doing things by hand, doing stuff you enjoy, doing hobbies and stuff. Reduce your stress, enhance your cardiovascular health, enhance your mental health and cognitive function, have better mood. Like get all the benefits of the thing that you're doing to improve your metabolism rather than cut more calories, which just has negative consequences across the board. So you're going to track data, you're going to identify the critical path and then you're going to focus your effort, very efficiently and targeted, on a positive, healthy change that addresses your critical path not more restriction, not more cutting. And this mindset teaches us to look for leverage points in what seems like a very complex system because it is. But then you can vastly simplify it by identifying places where small inputs create large outputs. And then you apply this efficiency thinking to your physique development and you're going to achieve much better results and be less frustrated. It's going to be more sustainable and that's what we're all about.

Philip Pape: 27:47

So, to wrap up, if today's concept resonated with you, I have a simple request Please text this episode to a friend who might be struggling with something in their lives. It might be fat loss, it might be something else. Maybe they are doing everything right quote unquote and just need a little bit different perspective. Sometimes a solution isn't working harder right, it's working smarter, more efficiently, by identifying the critical path in your system, and sharing knowledge is one of the most powerful ways that we can help each other, and this might be something that someone in your life needs to hear right now. So text this episode to a friend. That is all I ask. Until next time, keep using your wits lifting those weights and remember sometimes the biggest breakthroughs come not from working more, but from identifying the critical path in your system and working more efficiently. This is Philip Pape, and you've been listening to Wits and Weights. I'll talk to you next time.

Strength Training with Back Problems (Lifting "Heavy" in Midlife) | Ep 320

Submit a question for the podcast (and get a personal reply plus a shoutout) at witsandweights.com/question

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If you have back issues, you might think heavy lifting isn't for you. 

Millions of people struggling with back pain believe they should avoid challenging exercises - especially heavy lifting. 

But what if avoiding heavier weights is actually keeping you from building the strong, resilient body and back that you need? 

Today we're answering a listener question from Kristen (a 51-year old woman with chronic back problems) about strength training with back issues and challenging conventional wisdom about what's actually good for your back.

Main Takeaways:

• Understanding the counterintuitive relationship between strength training and back health

• Why most people's approach to back problems may be making things worse

• The critical mental shift needed for successful strength development

• How to build confidence through proper technique and progression

• The surprising connection between rehabilitation and strength training

Timestamps:

0:01 - Strength training with back problems
3:22 - Common back issues with age
4:47 - 3 key principles for training for a stronger back
12:30 - How to start training effectively
16:09 - Fears of re-injury
22:18 - The surprising overlap between rehab and training

Why Avoiding Heavy Lifting Might Be the Worst Thing for Your Bad Back

If you’ve got a “bad back,” the last thing you’re probably thinking about is picking up a barbell. The word “heavy” might trigger visions of tweaked discs, shooting pain, or being stuck in bed for days. But what if I told you that avoiding strength training is likely making your back worse—not better?

That’s the myth I’m busting in this episode, based on a listener question from Kristen, who asked: Is strength training with a back problem even safe—especially if you're over 50?

Let’s unpack the science and real-world experience that says YES, not only is it safe, but it’s exactly what your spine needs.

The Strong Back Paradox

When most people hear “bad back,” they assume they’re fragile. So they opt for light weights, machines, or walking. But here's the paradox: a weak back is more likely to get injured than a strong one.

When you don’t train your back with resistance, it stays unstable, uncoordinated, and vulnerable. Ironically, it’s not strength training that puts most people out of commission—it’s doing everyday tasks without strength, like awkwardly picking up a heavy box or bending over to tie your shoes.

The research backs this up. A 2016 systematic review in the Journal of Rehabilitation Medicine found that progressive strength training reduces pain and improves function in people with chronic low back pain. I’ve seen it firsthand with clients who were afraid of deadlifts—until they started doing them, pain-free, with good form.

Progressive Overload Is Non-Negotiable (and Doesn’t Mean Maxing Out)

If you want a stronger back, you need to challenge it. That doesn’t mean loading 300 pounds on the bar on day one. It means slowly, intelligently adding weight as your body adapts.

The mistake I see all the time? People doing the same exercises, at the same weight, for months. Your body has zero reason to get stronger if you don’t nudge it beyond its comfort zone.

This is especially important as we age. Without intervention, we start losing 3–8% of our muscle per decade after 30—and the decline accelerates after menopause. Building strength isn’t optional. It’s the best tool we have to hold onto muscle, improve function, and protect our backs into our 50s, 60s, and beyond.

Movement Patterns > Muscle Isolation

Machines are fine for hypertrophy, but they don’t train your body to move well. What your back really needs is integrated movement—the kind you get from compound lifts like squats and deadlifts.

These movements:

• Teach your body to brace and stabilize under load

• Train your glutes, hamstrings, lats, and erectors—all critical to spinal health

• Build real-world strength that transfers to daily life

If you’re dealing with back issues, the goal isn’t to avoid these movements—it’s to master them. That might mean starting with bodyweight or very light resistance. But learning proper hip hinging, bracing, and bar path can be a game-changer.

Modifications Are a Bridge, Not a Crutch

If you’re thinking, “But I can’t do a barbell deadlift yet,” that’s fine. Start with:

• Goblet squats instead of back squats

• Kettlebell or dumbbell deadlifts

• Trap bar deadlifts for a more upright posture

• Seated presses if overhead pressing hurts

The key is starting with what you can do and building from there. Your back doesn’t need babying—it needs proper stress and adaptation.

Breaking the Fear-Pain-Avoidance Cycle

Here’s what holds most people back: fear of re-injury.

And I get it. I’ve had back surgery. I’ve been laid up from a disc herniation after a sloppy lift. That kind of experience makes you cautious.

But if fear leads to avoidance, and avoidance leads to deconditioning, you end up trapped in a cycle of fragility. The only way out is to start moving—slowly, smartly, and progressively—and prove to your brain that your body can handle it.

Every clean rep is evidence that you’re capable. Every extra 5 pounds is proof that your back is stronger than it was last week.

What This Looks Like in Practice

Let’s say you’ve got occasional flare-ups. Here’s a framework to rebuild strength:

• Start with the movement pattern, not the weight. Learn to hip hinge, squat, and brace.

• Use light loads—even a broomstick or 15 lb bar is fine.

• Progress slowly with 5–10 lb jumps weekly or biweekly.

• Film your lifts or work with a coach for feedback.

• Train 2–3x per week, not daily, to recover and adapt.

• Focus on technique over ego.

The goal isn’t to hit new PRs. It’s to be able to lift groceries, play with your kids or grandkids, and live your life without that nagging back pain controlling your choices.

Stop Waiting for the “Perfect Back” to Train

You don’t need to be pain-free before you get stronger. Getting stronger is how you become pain-free.

I’ve worked with women in their 60s who started with nothing but chair squats and went on to deadlift more than their body weight, all without flaring up their back.

You don’t need a senior-friendly workout. You need a smart, progressive strength plan that treats you like the capable human you are.

So the next time you think, “Strength training isn’t for me because of my back,” flip the script:

“Strength training is exactly what my back needs.”

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Transcript

Philip Pape: 0:01

If you are experiencing back issues of any kind a little bit of back pain and fatigue all the way up to more significant back problems or a quote-unquote bad back that leaves you either sitting or even in your bed or on the couch for stretches at a time, and then you hear phrases like heavy lifting. You might think that that is not for me. I'll stick to my walking, my lighter weights, my machine work, but what if avoiding the heavier weights is what's keeping you from building the strong, resilient body and back that you need? Today we are talking about the counterintuitive thinking behind building strength with back issues. That will change the way you approach strength training when it comes to your back. Welcome to Wits and Weights, the show that helps you build a strong, healthy physique using evidence, engineering and efficiency.

Philip Pape: 1:01

I'm your host, philip Pape, and today we're answering a fantastic question from a listener named Kristen that I think perfectly captures the concern shared by millions of people women, men of many ages, especially over 40, over 50, and beyond. And Kristen wrote, quote I'm a 51-year-old woman who is overweight and I need a great program and tips for strength training for a strong, healthy future in my body. I have a back problem, so when I hear heavy lifting, I'm not sure this is a great fit for me personally. What are your thoughts Now? I did get back to Kristen with a lot of details specific to her, but today I want to answer the crucial thing that I think this question hits on that there's a massive disconnect between what many people believe they should do for their bodies, especially as they get older, and what the evidence actually supports. The truth is that not only can most people with back issues safely perform strength training with barbells and heavier loads, but it might be exactly what they need for long-term back health. The one caveat is I am not a medical expert. I'm not a doctor. I'm not dispensing medical advice, so, when in doubt, always seek the help of a professional or a physical therapist. I know some great ones in the industry, in fact, and I've worked with them myself, but today we're going to break down the principles and specific approaches in general that can help Kristen and everyone in a similar situation build the strength that they need for this vibrant, active future for decades to come, no matter what age you are.

Philip Pape: 2:40

Now, before we get into specifics, if you have a question that you'd like me to address on a future episode, just like I'm doing today, featuring Kristen's question. And you want a personal reply from me? Just go to witsandweightscom slash question or click the link in the show notes. And I love these questions because they allow me to address the real concerns that are holding you back, that preventing you from reaching your potential, that you're curious about, that are holding you back, that preventing you from reaching your potential, that you're curious about, that are very specific and contextual to you and I'd be happy to tackle your question or situation in an episode. Usually it's going to be featured all on its own and I'm going to give you a shout out, just like I did today for Kristen. So go to witsandweightscom slash question to do that.

Philip Pape: 3:22

All right, let us start by understanding what the problem is. After I got Kristen's question, I followed up. I asked her some more details because it always depends right and she shared with me that she had injured her back in her 20s. She has very weak core muscles, she occasionally has flare-ups where she could be bedridden for up to a week, and she mentioned specifically that poor form had caused a severe episode where she couldn't even get out of bed for five days. Now I can definitely relate to this.

Philip Pape: 3:51

I've had back surgery and it was exacerbated when I had a herniated disc while I was lifting with poor form. I remember specifically I forgot to put on my belt not that you need to have a belt, but I forgot to put on my lifting belt for the final set. Not that you need to have a belt, but I forgot to put on my lifting belt for the final set of really heavy deadlifts. I was in a gym talking with people getting totally distracted and I just went after it just in a very sloppy way. This is, this is before. I knew better and I could just feel that I pulled something, but it was just an exacerbated, um uh injury from years and years. That probably happened when I was in CrossFit and or snowboarding, you'll never know, but in this case it sounds like she, you know, lifted improperly and she said she walks one to two times a week, uses machines at the gym one to three times a week doing chest press rows, pec, fly seated leg presses, and she gave me some specific numbers and reps and you know I again I gave her specific advice.

Philip Pape: 4:47

But what I want to talk about today are are three key principles that will change how you think about strength training with back issues, and this is especially true for men and women in midlife, over 40, over 50, when these things really start to catch up with you. So principle number one is the stronger back paradox. All right, this is where most people believe that having back issues means you should avoid challenging your back through heavy lifting. But the evidence points in the opposite direction, because a weak back is more vulnerable to injury than a strong back. When I say it that way, you're like yeah, okay, that makes intuitive sense. But when you avoid training your back due to fear of injury, then you're creating a self-fulfilling prophecy, aren't you? Your back, then, remains weak. It's unstable. It is prone to exactly the injuries you're trying to avoid. Most people are going to get their back injured doing something stupid, like trying to lift something up into the back of a truck and twisting their body, and they lift it up with a massive amount of back curving. You know those kinds of things Very rarely, but occasionally somebody might injure themselves in the gym, but again, it's usually because of very poor form or trying to do too much too quickly.

Philip Pape: 6:07

The research shows us that progressive overload, progressive resistance, training right. This is where you continue to get stronger over time actually reduces back pain and improves function in most individuals who have chronic back issues. A 2016 systematic review in the Journal of Rehabilitation Medicine found that strength training led to significant reductions in pain and improvements in physical function for individuals with chronic low back pain, and I've seen it directly with so many clients clients who were hesitant to lift weights. We got them doing deadlifts and, all of a sudden, the pain starts to go away and they're shocked, they're surprised, but they're super happy and pleased. Um and I've seen this time and time again start deadlifting.

Philip Pape: 6:50

Now, this paradox applies to Kristen situation perfectly, because, by limiting yourself to light machine work, I think she's missing out on the training stimulus that can make her back more resilient, and I told her this. You know she I'm not calling her out here, she knows. You know I said the thing that I first learned through starting strength right it's better to have a strong, bad back than a weak bad back, and, of course, bad back is a subjective thing that we like to label, but the strong back is going to serve you far better in daily life. The key, though, is leading me to principle number two that progressive overload is non-negotiable. So when you think, okay, what does it mean to have a strong back? Well, you actually have to challenge it. You have to adapt your body to increasing demands over time. If you keep lifting the same weights, the same you know loads, the same exercises forever, your body has no reason to build more strength or muscle and it's going to stay at its current level. And I would say that this is even more critical for older folks, people over 40, 50, 60.

Philip Pape: 7:51

I did an episode specifically geared toward the over 50 crowd where I talked about the importance of the big compound lifts specifically for the back and for bone density and for like those functional things that we really care about. Take women, for example. After menopause, women can lose 3% to 8% of their muscle mass per decade. Of course, men lose muscle mass as well, but for women it increases at an accelerating rate because of the hormones. So in your 20s and 30s you had a let's call it good enough, quote unquote strong back and you had some muscle. Just that came along for the ride. Well, now you're losing that muscle. So unless you do something about it, it's just going to get worse.

Philip Pape: 8:45

So when Kristen mentioned that she increases weight when it feels too easy, which was one of the replies when we were discussing this. We talked about how our perception of difficulty some people call it RPE, or just you know how it feels is pretty subjective. It's influenced by a lot of things on that day that you go into the gym, your sleep quality, your stress, your nutrition, you know whether you're gaining or losing weight at the time, or in a calorie deficit or not. And this is why I like a structured plan that takes the guesswork out and does not depend on how you feel for the day until you get much more advanced and and can really rely on that. And so for all of us whose bodies are going to be forever aging and you're worried about that muscle loss, the principle of progressive overload has to be applied, and applied intelligently. You know, small, consistent increases over time, not dramatic jumps, not taking lots of time off from the gym and also not just staying at the same weight. Right, it's okay, if you're doing 30 pounds now, go in the next session or the next week and try 35. And your body will continue to adapt and stay strong when you do that.

Philip Pape: 9:55

And then, principle number three I just slightly alluded to this already, but I'm a big fan of focusing on movement patterns over isolated muscle groups when the concern is a strong back. Kristen said she was using machines. I think that's great. It's definitely better than nothing, and certain machines can definitely give you similar results for hypertrophy, for building muscle, but it's not going to develop the coordinated function of multiple muscle groups working together for that overall stability and posterior chain, which is what your back needs. It needs those very strong rope-like attachments that go up your spine to become strengthened, and that is best accomplished through, you know, a systematic multi-joint, multi-muscle compound lifts. Because back pain here's the thing it usually stems not from a single weak muscle but from not moving the right way.

Philip Pape: 10:54

Right, doing again, I said doing something stupid right and the fact that you don't have very good coordination between your muscle groups. You are just not neuromuscularly adapted to it and training on machines might feel safer, but it bypasses the development of these neuromuscular connections. Think about it Functional movements like squats, deadlifts. They train the body as an integrated system. They teach your bodies or your muscles to work together and they develop what we're going to call useful strength. Right, useful strength, not just big muscles, not just size, not just higher load for the sake of it, but the actual strength that translates to daily activities lifting and carrying your groceries, moving furniture, playing with your grandchildren all the things that actually end up pulling people's backs right. Even just the fact that you have to sit in front of a computer for your job potentially could cause back issues. But having a stronger back through coordinated, functional I hate the word functional, but the compound movements is going to mitigate that significantly. And again, this doesn't mean machines have no place.

Philip Pape: 11:59

So, kristen, I'm talking to you as well. I don't want you to feel bad with some of the stuff I'm saying in this episode. They can be extremely valuable for building specific muscles, for working around limitations. In fact I'm going to do an episode soon about building muscle despite injuries and limitations, so you might actually like that one as well. But the machine should complement right. They should complement and not replace the compound movements. I think those should be the foundation right, especially deadlifts when it comes to back health.

Philip Pape: 12:30

And if you're not doing them yet, kristen, you can start with a light, empty bar and work your way up from that. If you can pick something off the ground for a set of five with very little effort, then you could, of course, pick something slightly heavier for a set of five and heavier for a set of, and eventually you're gonna hit a point where it starts to feel heavy and your body will then adapt by building more connections, neuromuscular connections, as well as building muscle over time, and that's what's going to make your back really, really strong. Now let's talk about putting this all together for a, you know, application of the principles. I don't want to get too deep in the weeds about, like specific programming, um programming, prescriptions, I should say, and it also doesn't mean you have to jump straight into, like super, what you would consider heavy barbell deadlifts If you have back issues. Of course, again, as I said before, caveat, this is not medical advice. If it's something that is surgically indicated or requires physical therapy, that's really up between you and your doctor.

Philip Pape: 13:38

What I would suggest, however, from a training perspective, is starting with the movement patterns using body weight or very light resistance. Yeah, that could be bands, that could be an empty bar, an empty light bar. Right, there are light barbells, there are women's barbells that are 35 pounds, and then there's even 15 pound bars or even just like a broom handle. So if you can learn how to brace, how to breathe right, stabilize your spine and have a neutral spine during the movement, learning the squat and the deadlift pattern properly. I can't tell you pretty much every client that I start working with when they send me their first video of them doing a deadlift, it's always got some major issues the bar's way too far from the legs, they're rounding their back. There's something that's off that I know you're going to get injured by, and this is also why working with a trainer or coach can be really helpful.

Philip Pape: 14:24

I know I mentioned, you know, physique University. In there you could post a video and get a form check from me. I will break it down either in text or on a screen share video and I'll say look, here are the, here are your, here's your low hanging fruit and here are the cues that you can use to improve your movement pattern. Um, so it's. It's. It's the hip hinge right, the foundation of the deadlifts. It's the uh core stability that you get through doing squats and deadlifts and progressing them over time. It's modified versions of those movements. If you need them. Like, let's say, you carry a lot of excess weight and you can't get into a squat, maybe you could do a leg press, all right. But let me tell you, I work with clients who are in excess of 300 pounds on the scale and they can generally do all of these movement patterns. They just have to be taught the right way to do it and start light and work your way up right the.

Philip Pape: 15:13

The key here is we're not avoiding the movements that challenge the back. We are introducing them in a controlled way that builds strength and confidence. And if you could do it light with good form, then eventually you could do it heavy with good form and your body will adapt to it. So again, if you need modifications, like if you have to do goblet squats, initially really light, with a kettlebell or dumbbell, then that's fine. Start with goblet squats. If you had to do kettlebell deadlifts instead of just full up deadlifts, or if you have to use a trap bar I'm not going to, you know, get dogmatic here, criticize you for that I think it's great If you have to do seated overhead presses instead of standing overhead presses, right, like. As long as you're doing the movement patterns and then you have the appropriate load on your spine, establish you know proper technique and then start to progress. You're going to be able to adapt to it as you go, and that is the best way not to get injured.

Philip Pape: 16:09

So I think perhaps the most important thing when it comes to the back is actually not the physical, it's the psychological, it's the fear of the re-injury, and I get this. At the same time, I was so excited to want to get back to lifting, because I had done it for several years before my back surgery that that building of the habit and the strength actually got me through without nearly the amount of fear I suspect I would have had if I wasn't a lifter and I wasn't already in shape. And so I've talked here and there before about the importance of being strong leading into a surgery. And again we're talking about injury. But, like, a lot of people get injured and then they have to do something about it, they have to recover, and then they're afraid that they're going to get injured again. And then what pain specialists call this is fear avoidance behavior, right, and that's where you limit your movement to avoid the pain. So, kristen, if you're listening to this, and that's the thing that is going on um, you know, recognizing that is a good step one, for.

Philip Pape: 17:11

And then we're going to talk quickly about breaking the cycle. But what does the cycle look like? Well, you have fear, then you avoid the movement, then, when you avoid the movement, you get deconditioned, you get weak, weakness increases vulnerability to injury and then the injury reinforces the fear. Right, so that's the vicious cycle. Fear, right, so that's the vicious cycle. And so it requires this mental shift in your psychology from seeing your back as fragile and so so fragile right, you think it's fragile, it's breakable instead to thinking of it as adaptable, flexible and adaptable, but in a in a positive way. So this is a reframe that I'm asking you to consider right now instead of thinking your back as this fragile thing, think of as an adaptable thing, right, and that doesn't mean you ignore pain or you push through injuries. It means that you work with your body, doing the things we talked about putting it in controlled movement patterns and expanding the capability and the competence over time, by getting stronger as your body gets stronger mentally and physically.

Philip Pape: 18:14

Right, instead of accepting that this is some sort of limitation, because, let me tell you, every single person over 30 has a back quote, unquote issue, and if they got an MRI, it would show something in their spine that an orthopedic surgeon would say, yeah, we need to go in there and cut you open, okay, um, and I had back surgery and it took me a while before I got to the point of saying, no, I actually need the surgery because I had an impinged, uh disc impinging on my nerve, so it was literally sending a shooting pain down into my nerve continuously. Um, and as soon as the doctor just removed the material, I was fine and I was able to walk. And I've been great ever since lifting PRs for my deadlift. I mean, I just did a new PR recently. Um, and I know for a fact I've seen people who are engineers cause I know a lot of engineers who are like, oh, my back hurts so much. I'm like, yeah, you're sitting down all day. Oh, my back hurts so much. I'm like, yeah, you're sitting down all day. Of course it's going to work. What do you do for activity? It's like not much. Or I try to do this stretching, or these cobras. I'm like, let's get you deadlifting. Your body will respond to that Right and successfully implementing this strength training program.

Philip Pape: 19:15

It's. It's not just about the physical piece. You're going to build confidence through small, consistent wins as you accomplish this hard thing, but do it in a controlled way. Every successful training session you have. Every little increase in weight or reps, it becomes evidence to you that challenges the narrative that you're vulnerable because you're not. Your back has so much potential and capability to be strong. It is not fragile at all. It is highly adaptable, whatever age.

Philip Pape: 19:45

You are right, and this is why having proper guidance, proper coaching, is so valuable. Just get the form right. You've got to get the form right, even if it's spending one hour with like a starting strength coach or knowledgeable coach or talking to me and we can do a console, we can do a free call or you can jump into our program and get some um, you know, for the first month or two, as you're figuring this out, send videos and really rapidly skill up or level up your knowledge and ability. And, uh, you know, a good expert will help you distinguish between what we'll call harmful pain and the normal discomfort of training, although if you've had pain, you kind of will know the difference. Right Between that and some soreness and the way that I'm asking you to train, where it's fairly heavy, compound lifts, not a lot of reps.

Philip Pape: 20:31

There is a lot of rest period. You're only doing it three days a week actually doesn't involve much soreness. It shouldn't hurt. You're actually just going to feel stronger and stronger over time and then you're actually going to notice the pain going away. That's the really cool thing that I want you to get to, all right. So this is all a long-term thing, but the change can happen quickly. You know, building strength is is a process. It takes time, right. It's measured over months and years. However, I've seen pain relief come in as little as a few days, like just a few sessions. Right, and again, you don't have to start super heavy.

Philip Pape: 21:10

The goal is not to address the back pain. The goal is not to lose weight with your nutrition right, like all those things. The goal is not to hit PRs. The goal is to have a foundation of strength that supports your active, independent lifestyle that is pain-free. Now are you going to have a little bit of pain in certain areas for the rest of your life? Maybe, I don't know. I'm not here to help you with that right? I know that there's aspects with me, for example, my shoulder, where I'm dealing with what to do to work around it, to keep it strong despite a little bit of pain, but I think that's different than what we're talking about today with the back right, I think we're talking about the chronic pain that a lot of people have, and they have a fear and they stay stuck in that fear because they're not taking the time to strengthen the back and then prove to themselves that they can do it, thus breaking through the fear cycle. So if we can get a consistent, structured progression, compound lifts, gradually get heavier, build that strength, you're gonna be good.

Philip Pape: 22:18

Now, before I forget, there was one last thing in my notes, and that was rehab and training. Right, people think of these as two different buckets strength training and then rehab. Um, my, my good. Uh, I'll call him a friend, but he was my physical therapist for a bit and we still stay in touch. John Petrizzo, he was on the show. He combines the two as if they are basically one in the same, in in just the right way. What I mean by that is, the exercises that strengthen a bad back are the same ones that build an impressive physique. They're just at different points on the intensity spectrum.

Philip Pape: 22:50

Like, you may have to make certain modifications, but you don't have to choose between healing your back and building a strong body. I don't want you to go and just do quote, unquote mobility and band and stretching work. That is not enough. You have to train, and a barbell is one of the most effective ways to do that. Obviously, you could use dumbbells and such, but when it comes to deadlifts, a barbell is a really effective tool for the job.

Philip Pape: 23:13

And I've worked with so many clients in their forties, their fifties, their sixties who came to me with back problems and an assumption that they needed some sort of watered down program or senior friendly program or old person program. Right. And we're like no, let's get in the gym, let's get that power rack and bar set up and go after it. We'll just start light and we'll work up to it and it won't take long before you get super strong and then you get this pain-free strength that you never thought possible. I've started clients in their 60s, women in their 60s, never lifted before. Maybe they have trouble bending over to tie their shoes without pain, maybe they have trouble getting off the couch and we start with, say, chair squats and then we go to box squats and then we go to full squats and we're talking. Within weeks they're starting to get super strong.

Philip Pape: 24:02

So if you're listening to this and you're thinking that can't be me. I want you to question that right now. The human body at any age, has a remarkable capacity to adapt and grow stronger at any age. Again, I just said any age twice. But it's important right. Your back is not fragile. It's not destined to be a liability. It can become one of your greatest assets for your posture, your strength, your function and a pain-free life, if you just give it the opportunity.

Philip Pape: 24:27

So let's wrap it up. What's the key point? Strength training isn't just safe for most people with back issues. It's essential for back issues to improve your back health. Start where you are, focus on proper technique, follow a progressive plan that evolves through the capabilities, be patient and the rewards will absolutely follow, because your body's capable of far more than you might currently believe and the limitations you perceive are just that. They are perceptions, they're not physical realities. All right, if you have a question you'd like me to address on a future episode, go to witsandweightscom slash question or click the link in the show notes. Maybe it's about strength training, nutrition, mindset, consistency, anything. I'd love to help you overcome whatever's standing in your way and absolutely feature it on the show and give you a shout out as well, if you'd like that Until next time, keep using your wits lifting those weights and remember, when it comes to back pain, the solution isn't to avoid strength, it's to build it. I'll talk to you next time here on the Wits and Weights Podcast.

How She Lost 100 Pounds in Perimenopause and is Building Muscle Over 40 | Ep 319

Join WWPU (Wits & Weights Physique University) to learn evidence-based approaches to building muscle and losing fat at any age. From strategies for women during peri/postmenopause to step-by-step systems for body composition... all designed to help you achieve your goals without confusion or misinformation. Learn more:
https://witsandweights.com/physique

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"You can't build muscle during perimenopause." 

How many women have heard this discouraging statement from doctors, trainers, or social media? 

Today's episode shatters this harmful myth through the journey of my client Cynthia, who not only lost over 100 pounds but is now successfully building quality muscle during perimenopause.

If you've been told that hormonal changes during perimenopause mean you can't build muscle anymore or that muscle gain automatically means gaining excess body fat, this episode will change your perspective.

Cynthia reveals exactly how she's avoiding excessive fat gain while increasing muscle mass, and why the common advice about hormones and muscle building after 40 is entirely wrong.

Main Takeaways:

• Why building muscle is possible (and essential) during perimenopause

• How to distinguish between muscle gain and water weight fluctuations

• The mindset shift needed when transitioning from fat loss to muscle building

• Why tracking measurements matters more than the number on the scale

• How strength training becomes your most powerful tool against hormonal changes

Timestamps:

0:01 - Why muscle building during perimenopause matters
2:50 - The multiple benefits of building muscle after weight loss
8:49 - What finally worked for Cynthia's 100+ pound transformation
12:17 - Key mindset shifts she learned in Physique University
16:35 - Overcoming the fear of gaining weight during a bulk
21:41 - The importance of strength training during hormonal changes
28:53 - Optimal training frequency and exercise selection
33:33 - Targeting specific muscle groups effectively
45:04 - Pre-workout nutrition strategies that work
49:33 - Tracking progress beyond the scale
53:36 - The encouraging truth of muscle building at any age

Join WWPU (Wits & Weights Physique University) free for 2 weeks!

How to Build Muscle and Burn Fat During Perimenopause (Yes, It’s Possible)

If you're in your 40s or beyond and feel like your body isn’t playing by the same rules anymore, you’re not alone. The scale moves slower. Fat sticks around longer. And the whole muscle-building thing? The fitness industry would have you believe it’s “impossible” during perimenopause.

But Cynthia’s story proves otherwise.

She lost over 100 pounds, tackled her sugar addiction, and is now building lean muscle in her 40s—with better strength, confidence, and body composition than she ever thought possible. In this episode, we unpack how she did it, how you can do it, and the mindset shift that made it all sustainable.

From Fat Loss to Muscle Gain: A Strategic Pivot

Like many women, Cynthia started her journey hyper-focused on the scale. But after hitting 249 pounds and working her way down with a more balanced approach (not crash dieting), she knew she needed a new focus: build muscle.

Why?

Because muscle improves skin elasticity. It protects your joints. It makes long-term fat loss easier. And it reshapes your body in ways cardio and dieting alone never could.

Instead of clinging to the calorie deficit grind, she transitioned into eating more, lifting heavier, and finally seeing her body change in the ways she had wanted all along.

Protein Was the Game-Changer

Early on, Cynthia tracked calories—but not macros. Once she started prioritizing protein and hitting a consistent target, her body began to transform. And while it wasn’t easy at first (especially after years of relying on processed carbs), her hunger and cravings shifted as protein took center stage.

“It took about 4-5 months to see real results,” Cynthia says. “But once I committed to protein and strength training, my body changed fast—and for the first time, I wasn’t starving or gaining it back.”

Building Muscle in Perimenopause

Let’s cut through the noise: you can build muscle in perimenopause. Hormonal changes don’t shut off your body’s ability to adapt. What holds most people back is:

• Lack of progressive training

• Chronic under-eating

• Inconsistent habits

• Misleading beliefs about what’s “normal” after 40

Cynthia ignored the gaslighting. She trained consistently, lifted with intention, ate enough to fuel her progress, and stayed curious. The result? Real, measurable muscle gain—even while holding onto her smaller clothing sizes.

Facing the Fear of Weight Gain

One of the biggest hurdles for women who’ve lost significant weight is the psychological challenge of gaining weight again—even if it’s mostly lean mass. Cynthia felt it too.

She set a goal of gaining ~12 pounds over 6 months (from 138 to 150), but admitted it made her nervous. After all, she’d worked hard to get where she was.

“I had to remind myself—I’m not going back to old Cynthia,” she said. “This is about building. This is about the next version of me.”

By tracking lean mass vs. fat mass and leaning into non-scale victories (like how her clothes still fit or how her arms looked more defined), she stayed focused on what really mattered.

What Worked for Her (And Can Work for You)

• Progressive strength training 3–4 days a week, with focused attention on quads, glutes, and shoulders

• Consistent protein intake (~0.8–1.0 g/lb body weight)

• Macro tracking with flexibility

• Body composition monitoring (to track lean mass vs. fat gain)

• Using a modest surplus (~0.2–0.4% bodyweight gain per week) for lean muscle gain

• Maintaining high daily step counts (including post-meal walks)

• Creatine, magnesium, vitamin D, and omega-3s to support recovery and performance

• Dates and protein pre-workout for better energy than caffeine-based powders

Mindset Was the Biggest Transformation

Losing weight taught Cynthia discipline. Building muscle taught her patience and resilience.

“It’s not fast, but it works. You have to show up, even when you don’t feel like it.”

She created a vision board, tracked her data, and replaced self-doubt with a growth mindset. That’s what carried her through the tougher parts—like cramping triceps, frustrating scale shifts, or slow muscle gain.

You Can Build Muscle After 40—Even in Perimenopause

If you take one thing away from Cynthia’s story, let it be this: your body is still capable of amazing things. Don’t let outdated myths or hormone fearmongering hold you back.

With the right tools—strength training, proper nutrition, intelligent tracking, and a coach or community for support—you can build the body you want.

Muscle after 40? Possible. Fat loss without suffering? Absolutely. Feeling strong, empowered, and confident in your skin? Non-negotiable.

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Transcript

Philip Pape: 0:02

If you're over 40 and you've been told that hormonal changes mean you cannot build muscle anymore, or that muscle gain automatically means piling on body fat, this episode is for you. Today I'm talking with my client, cynthia, who's not only lost over 100 pounds, but is now successfully building lean muscle during perimenopause. You'll discover the exact approach she's using to avoid excessive fat gain while increasing muscle mass, why most people are misinformed by the industry about hormones and muscle building, and how to structure your training and nutrition to maximize your body's natural muscle building ability at any age. Welcome to Wits and Weights, the show that helps you build a strong, healthy physique using evidence, engineering and efficiency. I'm your host, philip Pape, and today I'm really excited to introduce you to one of my Physique University students, cynthia. Cynthia has achieved remarkable like incredible results over her fitness journey, both before and as she's worked with us Over that time, losing over 100 pounds, and now she's focused on building quality muscle during perimenopause, and she's taking some of our systems and strategies and applying them to overcome the challenges that a lot of women face as they experience hormonal changes, and I wanted you guys to hear from her the process she's following, the things that have been moving the needle for her, and then how you can apply some of these lessons to your own journey, no matter what age or stage you're in, because it's never too late, it doesn't matter how old you are.

Philip Pape: 1:42

You can make this happen for for yourself. So we're going to spend some time diving into cynthia's current goal as well and providing some live, real-time coaching there. There's been no preparation, uh, between us on that, so it's going to be totally seat of the pants here, um, with her goal to add muscle while minimizing fat gain in a transition period. So, cynthia, thank you so much for agreeing to do this and chat with me today.

Cynthia: 2:02

Thank you for having me here. It's it's an honor to be here.

Philip Pape: 2:05

to be honest, oh, I appreciate it. It's an honor to have met you and to work with you, um, and learn about your, your journey, but also see how much you, um how do I say this Like in the community. Every time you checked in and every time you spoke up, it was like a positive, can do attitude. It's like, no matter what the challenge is, I'm going to find a way. You just strike me as the type of person to do that. And look, you lost over a hundred pounds. Most of that was on your own, before we ever met. I'll just be totally honest about that. And now you're tackling muscle building during perimenopause, which is, like many women believe, it's not possible, right? So what made you decide to pursue muscle gain at this stage instead of continuing to focus on weight loss?

Cynthia: 2:50

Well, I noticed that people who actually build muscle especially because I started off at 249 pounds that's the farthest that I've ever recorded and I noticed that if I wanted to make this long term like a forever thing, I had to build muscle, especially for the elasticity of my skin, so I didn't have that like hanging skin, loose skin, and so I figured that building muscle was the best option. And then when I found out that building muscle actually helps you burn more calories not by a lot, but it's something I'm like well, let's build the muscle then, and that really encouraged me. And now, entering menopause or perimenopause, actually I realized the importance of building that muscle. And it's not just to look good or feel uh yeah, it's just honestly to to build strong bones, strong skeletal muscle and everything and just be able to last longer and not injure myself as easily, um, as I grow older.

Philip Pape: 3:57

Yeah, no. So you mentioned a few really powerful things there. One is the skin elasticity. That's a. That's a cool insight because people don't think about that. But when you have a little extra weight, you, you know, either have some stretch marks or extra skin or loose skin, especially the more overweight you may have been, and people think like none of that's going to go away. How, how has that improved from your journey? It?

Cynthia: 4:18

has improved a lot, uh, surprisingly, um, and I do consume a lot of collagen along with my protein, um, but it's not. At one point it was a little creepy, but it has. Now that I'm seeing the results and building the muscle with it, it doesn't look as as bad as it once, and it's. It's not absolutely perfect and, to be honest, I don't ever plan to have surgery on it because I'm just not that kind of person.

Cynthia: 4:48

I don't do medicine, to be honest, other than just the supplements and you know, vitamin D and all that collagen protein. But it has improved drastically by a lot.

Philip Pape: 5:00

So that's great. Yeah, you know that's great because Cause people, people want to know right, Like just that you don't necessarily have to do surgery. Obviously, it depends on how, what level of extreme you want for, and you know if you're if you were 400 pounds, it might be a different story, who knows? Um, the other thing you mentioned is the idea that it burns more calories and more fat just having the muscle, and so why not make what I'm reading between the lines, why not make fat loss easier by focusing on that part of it?

Cynthia: 5:27

Yep.

Philip Pape: 5:27

Yeah, so yeah, I don't know if you want to comment on that.

Cynthia: 5:31

Yeah, definitely For me. When I found out that at that time, when I started lifting weights, um, I started off with the adjustable dumbbells and I at that time, probably three or four years ago, I had found out that you can burn about, uh, four to five pounds um once you gain that muscle and I'm like, okay, well, if it helps me burn more and you know you work um, not as hard, to be honest, work smarter, not harder, kind of a thing. Um, I decided to do that.

Philip Pape: 6:02

So I think, uh, building muscle is the best choice for me personally yeah, no, for for sure, and I mean there's there's pretty much no reason not to right like that. That's one of so many benefits. And the other one you mentioned, perimenopause, right, which obviously any woman listening knows what it is, but maybe for those who don't right, it's like the time when your hormones start to shift toward menopause, which could take take 10, 15 years, some women.

Philip Pape: 6:24

It starts as early as their mid-30s. But I just saw an Instagram reel posted today by actually it was a post by Lauren Colenso Semple. She was on the show from Mass and she's been posting these claim versus science and the claim is that perimenopause hormones are going to cause muscle loss, or more muscle loss than not being in perimenopause, and the reality is that's not really true. What causes it is you're not training, yeah, and you, like, are doing the opposite, right?

Cynthia: 6:56

Yeah, yeah, and I'm one of those that I've always liked to prove people wrong Not, not in a snobbish way, but I'm like, okay, you say I can't, like, let me just show you there is a better way. You know, yeah, and that's one thing. I have heard a couple of your podcasts with, uh, like the most recent one, the Holly Baxter one, and then also the Nikki Sims, the Adam Badger and you were talking about perimenopause during that time and just being able to build muscle during, like, because one of the things that I would hear often is you're not going to be able to build muscle and you're going to like all the gaslighting, just the lies that doctors promote, and I'm like is there even hope for me? I just started building, you know, my body just recently, and then when I heard your, your courses and also you talking to Holly and Nikki and Adam, I'm like there is hope. You just have to do the work. You just have to lift the weights, eat enough protein, get enough rest. Basically, it's the same thing that I'm doing right now.

Philip Pape: 8:03

And yeah sorry, I'm not trying to cut you off.

Cynthia: 8:08

But yeah, that encouraged me, so yeah, yeah, no, again.

Philip Pape: 8:11

you're just saying things people need to hear, because it makes me sad to think that there's women that are told they literally cannot build muscle, like that's really shameful, that any and I bet it's by a doctor who themselves doesn't lift weights or something you know probably, but it's, it's that it's so. It's even worse than saying you're going to lose a bunch of muscle because of the hormones. It's saying not only that you can't do anything about it and we want to empower people like that. Ultimately, what you're saying is I want to prove you wrong because I have the power. It's on me to do it, and you can either see that as oh geez, now I have to do this work or I get to do this, like I get to train and build muscle.

Cynthia: 8:47

Right, so that's awesome, yeah.

Philip Pape: 8:49

Yeah, I know there wasn't a question there. I'm sorry. I like to talk, so I want to. I want to rewind the clock just a little bit, so so folks understand the context here. You lost all that. You lost a bunch of weight too, because people are always looking for weight loss and really we're going to focus more on building and growth and how that helps fat loss. But the a hundred pounds, like, what approach got you through that? And I know you tried things in the past and I, if I recall correctly, didn't you lose weight in the past several times and then gain it back or something, and then right, and now you did it successfully. So what was successful this time?

Cynthia: 9:20

Well, um, definitely implementing the weightlifting and eating more protein. Protein does satisfy you, which is at first. When I started, I'm like it doesn't. It doesn't satisfy you.

Philip Pape: 9:33

But it was because I was so addicted to carbs and other bad nutrients that it was almost kind of going into a withdrawal of carbs for me because I chose the poor foods a withdrawal of carbs, like for me, because I chose the poor foods and I was so hold on that when you say carbs, you mean like processed foods that have carbs and fat and sugar yeah, yeah, I just want to be clear for the not apples no, not apples okay yeah, so like the, the doritos, the takis kind of a thing, and so it's like eating processed, very processed foods and but when I started implementing the protein because when I started the my weight loss journey, I did start tracking, but I wasn't tracking macros, I was just tracking calories and then I started learning about macros.

Cynthia: 10:22

And when I started learning about macros I realized I was under eating, way under eating protein. When I changed that and I started eating more protein, probably like in six months, my body started changing and quick, and that was like the fastest I've ever seen it change and shift. And yeah, just eating enough protein, enough fats, enough carbs, like personally, I love being balanced. I think they are all good and beneficial for the body, um, but it's not just uh. For me it's not just tracking the calories, it's all of it.

Philip Pape: 10:59

That's, that's huge. What you just said is it wasn't about the calorie deficit, even though the end result is a calorie deficit. It was what you were eating, the composition, what you're eating, eating things that nourished you. And it's funny you said protein. You're like, oh, they tell you it's satisfying. It's not Obviously when you're coming from a world of like the dopamine hit of carbs and sugar. It's like having a sweet tooth and then someone says, well, go eat an apple. And you're like, yeah, that's not the same as a Snickers and you kind of have to desensitize and there's a transition period. But then there's also the fullness piece of being satisfied, where it sounds like you didn't focus on cutting stuff, you focus on adding in the right things and then it resulted in more volume, more satisfaction and then lower calories. You weren't trying to necessarily, but it resulted in that. Is that a fair assessment?

Cynthia: 11:45

Yes, yeah, okay.

Philip Pape: 11:46

Okay, which is great, because a lot of people I taught you do talk about calories a lot and I do talk about calorie deficits, um, but I I also talk about doing in conjunction with these things. So what now I'm curious about when you join physique university? I feel like there's two types of folks that join us, um, on hand, you have folks who are kind of new to all this. Maybe they listen to the podcast and they're just trying to figure it out, and they jump in a little frustrated. They're like things haven't worked. I'm looking for guidance and help, and so we give them that, like step by step, and the support You're in the other camp of.

Philip Pape: 12:17

You've leveled up your education. You've tried things already. You've gotten to a point that's a little more advanced and I love I love both groups of people honestly, because they both, like, thrill me in their, the level of knowledge that they can get to from that point. So I think of you as a more advanced person, but you still probably had some things you didn't know and that you learned, and I'm curious about what those might have been.

Cynthia: 12:39

Yeah, for sure, one of the biggest things that I learned was, um, not having to diet for a full year, because before I thought I had to be on a deficit for a long period of time to lose the weight and gain muscle. So basically I was kind of starving myself, but not really. You know, it's just I didn't have to put myself through through that deficit and just knowing that you could be on a deficit for three to four months and that's enough, and then go on maintenance and then go on a bulk for the rest of the year and then start again next year. You know, um, that definitely helped. And another thing was, um, just eating. I love eating apples, so just eating different kinds of apples and getting the different kinds of benefits, that's one thing that I learned from from Physique University. And, and then just measurements.

Cynthia: 13:34

It's another one, like before, I never, when I would measure my biceps, like I would never, I would always measure it with my arm down, and then you, you know, talk about, you know, just make sure you flex, and I'm like, well, then I'm, I have a bigger bicep, of course, if I do that. But a lot of the things that you were teaching in the courses is a lot of things that I had learned, and so when I had found out about you through the macro factor app, a lot of people were, you know, vouching for you, saying that you're a good coach, and I'm like, okay, well, I have to check this guy out and see what he has to teach, and so it was pretty legit to me.

Philip Pape: 14:16

I'm like, I'm sold, this is good information yeah, and I appreciate you putting a sales pitch on for me, even though I sometimes get uncomfortable and folks listening are like, oh no, this is Philip, turning this into a sales pitch. But what I think is important is just understanding whether you work with me or not work with me or you seek out information that there are things to learn. There are always things to learn. We should always be seeking out the information, and that if you're struggling in any way, um, there's probably an easier, a more efficient way, and that that's kind of where the curiosity piece comes in. So you mentioned number one, periodization. Right, you didn't say the word, but that's effectively. What you're talking about is where and this is one of the first things I learned as a coach and we talk about is, um, aligning your dieting and your and some people don't even like the word dieting but your mild fat loss, calorie deficits and your muscle building phases and maintenance with the year, with the seasons, with how you feel and your stress and your lifestyle, like just whatever makes sense, and knowing that you can ebb and flow between them and that if you diet too hard, too long, it has a negative impact on your long-term results. Right, it keeps you stagnant.

Philip Pape: 15:25

You mentioned the apples. It's funny because I actually stole that idea from one of my guests oh my gosh, and I can't even remember now. This is terrible, but he was talking about gut health and the diversity of compounds and lectins in apples. And if we have different types of skins, you get different food for your bacteria, different strains of your bacteria, and then you have a more diverse gut microbiome and we know the gut is like the second brain and connected to everything. And then the measurements. It's so funny you say that because the little things like oh, you should flex your bicep are just the kind.

Philip Pape: 15:51

Cynthia, I get questions by email every day with these little things like, uh, macro factors telling me 0.7 grams per pound of my protein. But I read it's supposed to be one and I'm like, okay, here we go again. Like it's one of those things people have heard stuff through the grape vine and let's just help them out anyway. Um, okay, so let's talk about some of the some of the other mindset shifts that I think are important for people to get into that you mentioned to me before. One thing was, um, cutting versus maintenance and bulking, which we just touched on a little bit. But since you're going to enter, or you have entered, muscle building phase, did you have any like fear about gaining weight? Was there uncertainty, anything like that? Since you were so good at dieting, was it kind of scary to you or were you pretty confident going into it?

Cynthia: 16:35

Well, with the muscle building, that was easy, but with the increase in calories that was scary.

Philip Pape: 16:42

Okay, okay. So that you mean okay. So you mean the lifting weights to build muscle is easy. Everybody loves that. It's the eating.

Cynthia: 16:48

More weight was hard, yeah it's like I don't know, especially coming from 250 pounds, you know, rounding um, I'm like I don't know if I want to go back there. There. It's that kind of thing like what, if I gain a lot of fat and because I was, this is honestly my first real bulk Um, I've never tried it before. It was just normally um deficits and maintenance. Um, I was, I was afraid of increasing the calories and gaining weight.

Philip Pape: 17:19

Um, but yeah, Well, okay, so I think you started out. You don't mind me sharing some numbers. Right, you started at, I think, one 38 in February, which is two months ago, your goals, one 50 by July, which for a lot of women hearing that level of weight, that is scary to some. I imagine it's 12 pounds. It's totally normal in my mind, cause I've worked with people that are bulked and like men will typically gain 15 to 25 pounds and women will gain like 10 to 15, unless they're very afraid to put on weight, and then it's like, okay, we'll dial it back, go really lean and do like five or 10 pounds, just to kind of put your feet in the water. Um, how has the process been going physically and emotionally so far?

Cynthia: 17:58

It's actually been good. To be honest, when I first started, cause when you first gave me the recommendations and everything, I'm like I don't know if I want to do this 150?, are you sure? But then when I started it, I haven't really. I don't feel swollen, I don't feel pudgy and I have been seeing results, especially in my arms, my shoulders. I feel like I've been gaining more muscle and, um, I'm actually liking what I'm seeing. Um, that's great, did you?

Philip Pape: 18:32

have you been tracking your measurements like Navy body fat percentage or using the physique tracker?

Cynthia: 18:37

Yeah, yes, I have.

Philip Pape: 18:38

What has it shown?

Cynthia: 18:40

Um, it from February. Well, I'll start it since January, because I started like I'm like I'm going to start January. Since January until now so far, I've gained about I don't know if it's fast enough, but about four pounds of muscle and not too much fat. That's incredible.

Philip Pape: 18:59

Yeah, that's incredible, that's great.

Cynthia: 19:00

Oh, I'm actually liking the results.

Philip Pape: 19:04

Yeah, I think actually actually. No, now that I have I do have your I should have looked at my notes. I think you said like five pounds of lean mass and three pounds of body fat, something like that, something like that yeah you do the math.

Philip Pape: 19:13

Five out of eight is right, exactly where we would expect someone to be. Like two-thirds, you know, 50 to 75 percent, that is good. If you're gaining less than 50 muscle and more fat, um, that's a little bit less effective. But look, any muscles, muscle. You can cut off the fat.

Cynthia: 19:30

So yeah, yeah, that's awesome. With some of the fat. It's like I still put on my jeans when I was smaller, a little smaller before the bulk. I'm like they feel loose still. So I'm I'm. It looks good on my clothes, my clothes look good on me, so I'm not disappointed.

Philip Pape: 19:47

Good and you can definitely lean into that. We talk about like the non-scale victories and stuff. I know some women, and men too, are concerned about um, gaining the fat gaining part and how that's going to affect them and like having to deal with that for a time, and I think you mentioned, when we were preparing for this, how it messes with your head, like as a woman. You were saying specifically, can you just talk more about that, like how you worked through it if you had to, or advice for others.

Cynthia: 20:13

Um well, it does mess with your head. I don't know how to explain it. It's just for me, because of my past history, my only concern was going back to being obese and in a way, I've trained my mind to just like. I would envision myself digging my heels on the ground and being like I'm going to keep pushing through it and I'm not going anywhere, like I'm not going back to old Cynthia. This is new Cynthia and this is going to be a forever thing. And so it's just determining, making that determination and even with the weight loss when I first started it about four years ago, is this there comes a period where you have enough. You're like I'm done, I quit, like I don't want to look like this, I don't want to feel like this. And I even did a like a vision board and I put images of myself when I was heavy, but I also put images of people that I wanted to look like muscular, and I would just look at that vision board and just encourage myself through that and I'm like that will be my reality. And I would often tell myself that is going to be my reality and just just trucking through and trying to make it happen.

Cynthia: 21:33

And I mean because people can always make excuses and I was tired of the excuses. I'm like I can say this you know, I have five kids, I have to homeschool, I have to clean house, I have to go shopping and you know I have to be a wife. But when it comes to your health and you're getting older, it's like it's better to be healthy. I also had like issues with hives. Sometimes I would get hives in my body and certain um blotches on my skin. I'm like I don't, I don't like this. I don't like having feeling the love handles. I don't like you know, and just calling things out for what they really are, you know and being like I don't want this, this has to go now.

Cynthia: 22:16

what am to do? And at first it was tedious. I remember when I first started doing a back lunge I'm like, oh boy, I'm bad, I can't even do a back lunge. This is embarrassing, but I'm like it's better than nothing. It's better than nothing. And I kept encouraging myself like, start small, but start somewhere. And probably it took about four or five months to see real results not as quickly, but it took. It took some time. It's just being patient and doing the right thing and just not quitting.

Philip Pape: 22:49

You, you, you just said, like every key point that I wish people understood about this, like patience to change. You have to change, you have to accept some discomfort. It's going to take time, like the first week, month, three months might not show you all the results you want, but it's going to chip away at it. And then you just said, like look, I wasn't taking it anymore Like I have. I have this identity inside me and now I want to physically manifest that identity, like that's what I'm getting from you. And you're right, no excuses. You've got a busy life, you've got a family to take care of.

Philip Pape: 23:22

We were talking about that before. We recorded just how much is going on. And, like you know, you're looking forward to summer. You're, you're honest with yourself, right, you're looking forward to kind of a little more relaxing season of the year before you go after it again. Um, so potentially that's really good for muscle building too, is the low stress, so that's really good. Let's dig into your current goal a little bit, because I'd love to tease out any refinements or optimization or anything, just to make sure you're on the best track you can be. You're trying to build muscle with minimal body fat during perimenopause Impossible, right?

Cynthia: 23:53

You're doing it.

Philip Pape: 23:55

Are there any specific challenges you're facing right now that you want to talk about?

Cynthia: 23:59

Well, I guess I'm still learning about perimenopause, and so I want to know if there are certain foods or supplements, I guess, to prevent waking Like well, besides muscle, I guess, what are common hormonal shifts that I can expect during this time, and what can I do about it? To you know, prevent it, to get ahead of it in a way?

Philip Pape: 24:29

Yeah, yeah. So it's really good timing too, because one of my private clients sent me a message today. She went to the doctor and got hormone, some hormone replacement therapy going on right Progesterone, estrogen, testosterone, dhea those are the big ones. Sometimes people need thyroid meds. My general philosophy on this again, I'm not a woman, but worked with a lot and talked to a lot of professionals on this is obviously your number one supplement is strength training, like that's my answer, that's your number one. Big time, big time. Because again, this client called me and she's like the doctor was surprised at how far better my numbers were than she would expect for someone of her age.

Philip Pape: 25:10

Okay, everybody cringes when they hear that, right, cause it's like come on, um, and the doctor's like, keep doing what you're doing. And she's like, how's your food? She's like, well, I eat a lot of carbs and I eat pretty balanced. And she's like, well, your blood sugar is perfect too. So keep doing what you're doing. And she's.

Philip Pape: 25:24

And yet she still needs a little bit of hormone therapy for, um, testosterone and progesterone and estrogen. Progesterone and estrogen decline, right, um, testosterone declines as well. The funny thing about testosterone, cynthia, is, like you know, women have like one. What is it? 110th or 120th the amount of men, but it's still the largest amount of hormone in your body, you know, compared to all the like. A lot of women don't realize that, and so guess what stimulates it the most? Strength training, like strength training, stimulates testosterone and IGF-1. And then you can't do anything about the decline of your hormones in perimenopause, into menopause it's being a woman. What I do understand, though, is that the lifestyle things that you're doing and anyone listening can incorporate with lifting and just eating to nourish your body and not dieting all the time. That mitigates a significant portion of, let's say, symptoms from the hormones.

Philip Pape: 26:22

Having said that, I'm a big fan of hormone replacement therapy if you need it. So working with not necessarily a GP, usually it's like a hormone specialist, sometimes functional doctors even though I have a little skepticism of functional medicine in general, I think the hormone area of it they probably are a little bit ahead of some of the conventional medicine. It depends where you get your panels checked. It's not just blood work. You get urine metabolites, maybe saliva, like all the stuff. You know the free, the floating versions of the hormones, and not just the bound versions of the hormones, all of that right, um, sex, binding sex. You know what I'm trying to say.

Philip Pape: 27:00

Shgb, I can't think of it right now. Globulin, right, get all that checked and just be sure that you're doing the lifestyle and then whatever's left gets treated. So that's kind of like my big answer to all that. As far as foods and everything, I think that's kind of I don't think there's really an answer. I don't think there are hormone supporting foods. I don't think there are hormone-supporting foods. I think eating enough fiber, protein and balance is the answer.

Cynthia: 27:25

Does that answer the question? Yeah, so basically yeah, because that's the same thing that I've been hearing from you and from some podcasts that I heard from you Just keeping it the same and just don't believe the lie of there's no hope for you.

Philip Pape: 27:41

Yeah, and I would encourage, like, if you're interested, uh, cynthia, definitely check out. Be careful, cause there are a lot of hormone podcasts and not all of them are like legit or fully evidence-based. Um, karen Martell she's been on the show a couple of times. Um, and I've been on hers. Hers, all her hormone stuff is really sound Like she brings on a ton of experts, talks about it all the time. I, you know her nutrition and training stuff is not always aligned, but that's fine, you know she, she has her approach, but her hormone stuff is great. So if you can find a few people and there's other folks I've had on who really know their stuff, like a lot more than I do with about hormone therapy Definitely listen to a bunch of people and like make critical, you know, use critical thinking and apply it for yourself and do the research.

Cynthia: 28:24

But yeah, yeah for sure, cause I'm I'm one of those with a more natural approach. The more natural the better, and especially my husband being in the medical field. There's just a lot of side effects to to medicine and I'm like I I, if I could do it more naturally, then that's the way to go. But if, if not possible, we'll see, we'll see, you know, I think you could do it vastly naturally.

Philip Pape: 28:53

Um, if you have the way you're doing, it is setting yourself yourself up for the best outcome period. Um, if anything, you're in a good position to maybe get some of the at least get your panels checked, like, if you haven't yet get it checked, just so you know. Like I get my testosterone checked, I just want to know, I'm like, if it drops at some point despite doing everything, and there's a medical solution, at least I know that option's available, right, if I want to do it. What's the other thing about supplements is I think you know my philosophy on this, but just for folks listening, be very careful with all the supplement recommendations out there. I think there's a core small set of supplements that most people should consider. We've got multivitamins to potentially fill in some gaps in your nutrition, but if you eat a lot of whole foods, you should be covered there. Magnesium is really good. Um, most people are deficient in magnesium. I know you take it right.

Cynthia: 29:43

I take it every day. I love it yeah.

Philip Pape: 29:45

It's great. And then, um, you know creatine, absolutely, I think everybody from like two years old to 98, you know like everybody should take creatine, especially now that we're discovering cognitive benefits and like zero downsides, unless you're a tiny fraction of people who get allergic to it. Okay, sorry, or you just don't respond to it. And even if you don't respond to it, you might want to take it for the cognitive benefits, right, oh?

Philip Pape: 30:08

cool yeah Um fish oil if you don't need enough fatty fish. You know for the Omega threes, we know there's health protective benefits for for oxidative stress and things like that for your um inflammatory process. And again, inflammation is another trigger words, india. Because, like, if you're training and eating properly and being active like you're, you're giving yourself a pro inflammatory, counter inflammatory environment, right, like a low inflammation environment. Uh, what else did I forget anything? Is there anything else you take?

Cynthia: 30:38

Um, well, definitely the vitamin D, but I get that from the sun, so I always one of the things that also helped me, besides the steps, getting a lot of steps done Um, after every meal, I walk for 15 minutes, like right after, just to just to get myself active, and um, most days I like being outdoors at least for 30 minutes. Um, just to get that vitamin D from the sun and fresh air. I feel like there's healing properties and just getting sun and fresh air and it's just relaxing.

Philip Pape: 31:11

I agree I have a sheen of sweat right now because Connecticut has been like 45 degrees one day, 70 degrees the next, 40 degrees. So I'm like I'm like hot and cold, but I just went out for a walk, the next 40 degrees. So I'm like I'm like hot and cold, but I just went out for a walk and I got in here and I'm like it's gonna be nice and cool in the house. No, the sun's kind of anyway. Um, vitamin, but vitamin D is a good one. Some people do need to still supplement if they don't have enough of their super pale, like us. Um, okay, so so that's supplements. What about? Is there any aspect of? Is there any aspect you feel needs more refinement? Or you're like experimenting with and not quite sure yet with, like the muscle building or the training or anything like that?

Cynthia: 31:46

I guess, because right now I'm training mostly three days a week and I don't know if I should increase it to four or five. I guess one of the things that I've been learning, especially from your podcast with Adam, it was patience, having patience Because I didn't realize, because I remember in the past people would say that if women lift weights they're going to bulk and be like She-Hulk, and obviously it's not true. Building muscle for women. I don't know how it is for men, but for myself I'm like this ain't so easy and I would like to get bigger shoulders. I just I like the bigger shoulders. Personally, I wouldn't be ashamed of that.

Philip Pape: 32:33

Okay, awesome, awesome. So I hear a couple questions I want to answer. I'm going to go backward and start with the shoulders because, um, a friend of mine just sent me a link to a real I think it was actually Dr Mike Israel. He's got some really funny stuff out there, but he was doing um, wasn't him doing it? I think? No, no, no, it wasn't him. It was actually Alex Hormozy, who's like a marketing expert, he's also jacked and he like got his start in the gym industry and he was showing lat raises. Do you do lat raises? Yeah, okay, so you probably do them the traditional way, where it's like pour the cup and bring it above your shoulders.

Cynthia: 33:08

Okay, yeah, yeah. Is that how you normally do it? Yeah, yeah, yeah, for the most part, yeah.

Philip Pape: 33:13

Yeah, and the theory being that's like full range of motion. But think about the biomechanics. The lengthened portion is actually at the bottom, not at the top. The top is actually you're contracting, you know. It's the shortened version. The length is actually kind of in the middle to the bottom and you notice we usually just kind of fly through that position and we go up to the top.

Philip Pape: 33:33

Well, he said look what if you overload, you know, go really heavy right when you can barely get them past like 45 degrees and just go to failure and see if it doesn't completely build your outside lateral caps here on your shoulders. And I'm like I I had the rotator cuff surgery, so like I can't even do lat raises without a little bit of pain. So I kind of do other stuff instead, like front raises and pressing and other. But I'm going to try those and you might want to try them the shoulders are a thing for you and just throw them in, like at the end and, due to failure, three or four sets of really really, really heavy but only like half range. Now people are listening to me, like the bros are listening like, oh, my God, you can't do that. You're supposed to come all the way up. That's not proper form. Depends on the purpose. If you're literally just trying to hit this small outside part and you can overload it in a partial and that partial is the lengthened see what happens, try it out.

Cynthia: 34:23

Yeah, I did. I heard Jeff Knipred talk about that lengthened partials and that piqued my curiosity. I'm like, oh, so you don't have to do full range of motion.

Philip Pape: 34:33

Then I'm like, okay, yeah, and the jury's out on like, should you do it only length and partials? I think the consensus is is you know, do full range of motion and then some length and partials. The benefit of the length and partials is depending on the advantage of the biomechanics of the lift. You can overload it and hit it harder, right, and that that's the advantage. It's, it's you know, right. It's kind of like when you do a close grip bench press, people are like, well is well, is that for the shoulders or the chest? It's like, yes, it's actually for both, and if you think about it, you're overloading the triceps quite a bit because you're helping it with the chest.

Philip Pape: 35:07

So there's a part of the motion that's getting really, really hit with a high load and there's some magic in that, okay, so, going backward into the other two things you mentioned, you mentioned um. To the other two things you mentioned, you mentioned um three days a week. And then there was one other thing you mentioned I wanted to make sure not to forget. You said three days a week and you said um, patients or something bulking oh, the bulking piece. Yeah, yeah, I've talked that to death in this podcast. Look, I have trouble building muscle. Any woman listening, don't worry about it. I think she Hulk's pretty sexy anyway. But listen, between completely thin like rail thin supermodel and she Hulk, it's all beautiful. Build the muscle is my take on it.

Cynthia: 35:47

Let's be healthy and strong.

Philip Pape: 35:48

Yes, Be a healthy, strong human and you will be beautiful inside and out. All right, Um so three days a week. So here's my question to you is, um, what is your goal right now? Not just building muscle, but I mean you said you wanted to specialize on your shoulders. Is there anything else you're focused on?

Cynthia: 36:05

Uh, I definitely the quads and the glutes.

Philip Pape: 36:11

Why am I not surprised? Um, okay, so in that case, and your three day a week, is it full body or is it like push pull? Yeah? They're all full body they're all full body, okay, yeah, all right, and are you doing primarily the same movements all three days? Are you rotating?

Cynthia: 36:26

no, rotating, it's a different um. I actually got a workout program from marcus philly okay, yeah sure yeah, and so he changes it fairly frequently and my husband is the one that got it. I'm like, well, you paid for it, I'll just I'll just use that, hey it never hurts to try things out.

Philip Pape: 36:45

I'm all for that. Does it? Does it at least um repeat some of the same exercises for at least a few weeks, so you can progress, yeah?

Cynthia: 36:52

Yeah, so he normally gives it like for six increments, but throughout the weeks, like there's conventional deadlifts and bench presses and you know different things, yeah.

Philip Pape: 37:02

Okay, are you trying to push your numbers and build like a peak of strength and get super strong on on the lifts you know for function, for bone density, for ego, whatever. Or are you trying to just like build your physique Both?

Cynthia: 37:18

Both, because I actually I mean, I have been pushing myself and doing lifting heavier. There are days that I just I don't feel as strong, so I do lower the weight a little bit, but then there are other days you can't do that.

Philip Pape: 37:33

You can't do that, I'm just kidding. No, no, that's good. Listen to your body, okay. So here's my thought is in general. I'm just I'm throwing out a bunch of generalities, cynthia, you're going to have to try it yourself.

Philip Pape: 37:46

In general, once you get past that novice stage, which I think you are, um, a four or even five day split can be more effective, usually because you can get more frequency and more sets, like it's just more volume. Um, unless you're doing like two and a half hour sessions on the full body days I suspect they're not that long Then four days of like an hour of training maybe up to an hour and a half, depending on what you have time for can be potentially more effective, just because you're getting a little more volume. We know that 10 to 20 sets per week is like the sweet spot, pushing toward the upper range if you really want to be optimal. So like if you're only getting 10 or eight, then you're kind of right on that hairy edge of like you could push it more and get more results. I never want you to go to so far that you can't recover or it's not sustainable for you. But because you're eating and in a surplus, you've got the resources, you've got the calories. So a four day split instead of doing three day full body where you did upper, lower, upper, lower.

Philip Pape: 38:41

And if you're trying to build glutes and quads, I don't think you need to do like three lower body days and one upper. You don't have to like bias it that much. Two and two is good. You can obviously do a five-day program and then have an extra leg day, but as long as you're hitting it hard in the two lower days with squats and with with squats and um, extensions and curls and you know variations on deadlifts and all that just the classic stuff you should be able to build your glutes and quads. Now I have a lot of great ideas for quad development that people don't think about, um, and one that I haven't even done myself but I'm sharing from my coach, andy Baker. He mentioned it once on the podcast. Is the Cambridge bar squat. You go to a gym or is that at home? Home, okay, so you probably don't have that. Okay, then in that case, do you have a safety bar squat or just a traditional barbell?

Cynthia: 39:29

Um a safety bar. Yeah, Okay.

Philip Pape: 39:32

So, with a safety bar, what you could do? Do you have a way to raise your heels Like um wed?

Philip Pape: 39:39

I do have a wedge yeah you have a wedge, okay, so do that while wearing squat shoes, because that'll raise your heel even more. And put it a little bit narrow stance and just do safety bar squats. They're effectively going to be like a front squat, because you're going to have to be really upright to to stay balanced and that is going to slam your quads like nothing it's. It's almost like doing a sissy squat, but in a more controlled, loaded way, gotcha, so that's one. It's kind of like a plat squat, but on steroids. Um, so that's one thought.

Philip Pape: 40:09

And then for, and then glutes. I mean you know what for glutes you could do cable pull throughs, you could do rate, hip bridges and glute raises and hip. You know all that stuff, right? Um, I mean, basically squats are your number one friend for that as well, and deadlifts too, uh, to be honest. But you could do like, um, you know lateral stuff, you know split squats and step ups and lunges, whatever you like to, to kind of bring in the glutes and the hammies together as a system and then really load the glutes that way. Um, where am I going with all of this is the four days and then making sure you're specializing in the specific muscle groups you want, while just hitting the main lifts. The main lifts once or twice and then all the other stuff for bodybuilding should be good.

Philip Pape: 40:49

Yeah, yeah, okay, as far as an actual program, I mean, that's, we're not gonna, I'm not going to give you that here, but we could talk.

Cynthia: 40:56

Yeah, oh, awesome and normally um here. But we can talk yeah, oh, awesome and normally um. What is the normal rate for me to gain muscle, let's say monthly, or for women in general, like what's, what's what's considered normal to 20 pounds a month?

Philip Pape: 41:08

20 pounds a month Just kidding.

Philip Pape: 41:12

You know how much you'd have to eat. Okay, so I generally say one to two pounds a month for women. That's like super general ballpark. I generally say one to two pounds a month for women. That's like super general ballpark. Um, you weigh one 40, around one 40, one 43 right now, and I just did the math for somebody else today for a lean gain at 0.2% and that was like a pound a month. So double that is 0.4%. That's two pounds a month. That's pretty good Cause then over a six month period you would gain like 12 pounds, which is what you're trying to do. Yeah, yeah, perfect.

Cynthia: 41:40

That's what you're doing. Yes, yeah.

Philip Pape: 41:42

Okay, we were just confirming.

Cynthia: 41:43

All right, good yeah, is that funny how we get.

Philip Pape: 41:46

I do this math all day. It's like plate math in the gym, you just know it's. You know one 35, one 85 to 25, right, yeah, okay. So we talked training, um, we talked body composition and and fear of gaining recovery. Pretty good, now anything, any symptoms from perimenopause or anything like that affecting you no, not really recovery has been really good.

Cynthia: 42:10

um, no issues there. There are times that I am sore but not too bad, Like within a day or so it's pretty good From your lifting.

Philip Pape: 42:20

Yeah from lifting In specific muscle groups or just in general. It could be anywhere.

Cynthia: 42:24

Like mostly the triceps. The triceps get sore a lot easier.

Philip Pape: 42:28

They cramp up a little bit, or what.

Cynthia: 42:29

Yeah, they do. Where you're like trying to lift something and it's like ah yeah, that happens a lot to my, my, my calves, my calf muscles, oh yeah. And that's one thing my husband noticed this week. He's like, oh, you're building calf muscles, I see them now. I'm like, good, and you're doing like calf raises, yeah.

Philip Pape: 42:48

Standing seated.

Cynthia: 42:49

Standing. Is it with your?

Philip Pape: 42:51

safety bar, or how do you do those With safety bar? Or how do you do those with, uh, just uh, with dumbbells. Okay, with dumbbells, because the calves, if it's working for you, great and and again you're you're not that heavy body weight. So, like a heavier person, like and I'm not that heavy, but like bigger guys, usually have to load up the calves a lot to get them to respond, which would, since you have a squat, safety, safety, squat bar, you could get in front of your power rack, get a calf block, you a block, a little low block of some kind, like uh no, yeah, actually I do, yeah, yes.

Philip Pape: 43:21

Or even a box. Even a box, as long as you're safe about it and you basically just you put one arm on the rack and just get up on the blocks and cause, the safety bar has a yoke, you don't really have to hold it, you know, it kind of just sits there and then you could really load it up, like I could probably calf raise, you know three something or four something. You could probably get up to the two hundreds pretty quickly, cause they're, you know, the calves are pretty strong when you're just it's like this little, almost like an isometric, and then, um, really getting the squeeze and then coming down very deep, uh, with the height of your heel, so you have enough height, um, to bring the heel down. You know what I'm saying yeah, yeah.

Philip Pape: 43:58

Yeah, you know is is super effective. Also, donkey, calf raises are great. That was Arnold made those famous and you could um rig up this whole thing with like spotter arms and stuff. That's a lot more complicated to do that. Anyway, where I was going with that is um calves can definitely cramp when you do the plat wedge, uh squat, it might like you might cramp up just getting in that position.

Cynthia: 44:24

Yeah.

Philip Pape: 44:25

Yeah, but you'll adapt, like you work through it and you work through the soreness and you adapt and then you won't cramp as much yeah.

Cynthia: 44:31

Yeah, I remember when it would happen. I'm like I'm taking magnesium. Shouldn't magnesium be helping with that?

Philip Pape: 44:38

Electrolytes, hydration, I mean some of these. You just cramp because you just worked out of your muscles and you worked hard it's okay, it's okay, okay. And then what about food in terms of? I know you're good on macros, you understand all that, but timing energy in your workouts? I know you talk about on macros, like you understand all that, but like timing energy in your workouts? Um, I know you talk about eating dates and protein. I love dates. Um, yeah, dates are good.

Cynthia: 45:04

Dates are yummy. You ever had bacon wrap dates? No, okay, okay.

Philip Pape: 45:06

Next time you host a party, Okay, you just get strips of bacon and the big you know seeded dates. That's probably how you buy them, like the major dates that have no seeds in them, and you just wrap like I think a whole strip of bacon is what you want, or maybe a half, maybe a half strip of bacon, just wrap it, put a toothpick in and roast it. And you can Google like temperature and time, and it's so good because the bacon gets crispy, the dates get soft, warm and gooey.

Cynthia: 45:32

It's just so good. That's one thing I was telling my husband. I'm like these dates. They taste like caramel to me.

Philip Pape: 45:38

I love it, Good Cause it's like they're caramelized. It's like they're caramelized just naturally, Like that's how they taste right.

Cynthia: 45:43

Yeah, and it does. Um, I know we've talked about this before pre-workouts and so I finally bought. Well, my husband bought the Legion, one Legion.

Philip Pape: 45:53

Pulse. Did he use my link? I'm just kidding.

Cynthia: 45:59

No, sorry, I'm just kidding.

Philip Pape: 46:01

I think my link gives me like points or something. It doesn't even give me money, so I'm like I hardly ever tell people that.

Cynthia: 46:06

I completely forgot about it. To be honest, I'm just kidding, my husband bought it. Sorry, but I'm still iffy about it because I know that when you recommended bananas, I'm like I could eat bananas but I'm not much into it. And then someone had recommended dates. I'm like, oh, I love dates and I tried the pre-workout Legion Pulse recently and I I feel like I was crashing, still like I was.

Cynthia: 46:38

I was yawning the one with uh caffeine no, the non-stimulant okay, yeah, it's stem free and I I wasn't impressed with it. So I'm like, this morning I took my normal, just the coffee protein. I do a coffee protein, um, with electrolytes as well, chocolate electrolyte, uh, and the creatine powder and touring. But when I eat the dates, um and the magnesium, I feel energized. I'm like I think for me, uh, the food pre-workout works better for me versus the powders.

Philip Pape: 47:15

What are you doing? Doing the powder without food or protein? Yes, oh, okay, yeah, that's going to cause. Yeah, even with. Yeah, I don't see. Yeah, you definitely want to, because you were basically fasted then at that point. Okay, yeah, yeah, and I'm not saying that the pre-workout would work well for you, even when you did it with food.

Philip Pape: 47:35

The way I do it personally is I have my banana and then I have whey protein and then I have the pre-workout and then, I go work out like 10 minutes later, um, the banana and the protein, like half an hour 45 minutes before, and then the pre-workout like 15 minutes before, um. But some people don't respond or some people have side effects because there's betaine, there's beta alanine, there's L-citrulline and there's one other thing, um plus the one that has caffeine. That's I like that one cause. That's I'm not drinking coffee that early, I drink coffee later. If you did it with the food first, I'd be interested to know if there's a difference.

Cynthia: 48:09

Yeah, I'll try that tomorrow, cause I was planning on doing that tomorrow. I'm like I'm going to try it with my food, basically, and see how that works.

Philip Pape: 48:18

I mean pre -workout, it's just a tiny boost potentially from the effects of the compounds that are in there. I mean they have been studied in the evidence to like help with with your oxygen, nitrogen oxygen and also, um, just giving you some a boost in performance. Use some a boost in performance, uh, when you're in the gym so that you get like an extra rep. You know it's not like it's like creatine, it's not like a huge game changer, um, so it's really take it or leave it. Cynthia, honestly, you know, as long as you're progressing, you're good, um, all right. So let's see you're. You're headed toward, like the one 50 pound mark, which I know sounded psychologically like Whoa, um, it's funny you say that Cause just today in physique university I posted a lean gain plan for someone who's weighs 144, but it's her first lean gain, so she's afraid of gaining too much.

Philip Pape: 49:05

So I said let's go up to 149. I did that on purpose because of the psychology. I didn't want to say one 50, you know what I mean. What, what are, um, what are like the most meaningful things that you're tracking now, just so the audience understands. Like how do you know you're making progress?

Cynthia: 49:33

And tracking my macros, calories, but the measurements really does encourage, because it helps me see how much lean mass I have and how much fat mass. And that's another thing that I had learned from you that there was a difference with the type, because when it said lean mass I always thought it was muscle.

Cynthia: 49:54

Right, right, a lot of people think that I disregarded the bones, the organs, liquid. I'm like, yes, I gained five pounds of muscle and then the next week, wait what happened to my muscle. But yeah, just tracking, that was very informational, and just doing the same, I'm one of those that, I'm just a creature of habit, unfortunately.

Philip Pape: 50:20

That gets you the result. That does it, like you said it earlier, taking the baby steps, and you also said, like, just doing something, like that was a good statement, because consistency is just doing something. Yeah, like, keep doing it, you're going to get there right.

Cynthia: 50:34

Yes, so it's just being consistent with my meals and just showing up and even if you don't feel like it, and, of course, listen to your body, because there's times like I've talked to you about it One time I was not feeling good and I took a break. I'm like my body saying rest. So I'm going to rest and I'll make up the workout week somehow. I'll figure it out. But I'm going to rest and I'll make up the workout week somehow. I'll figure it out, but I'm going to do it.

Philip Pape: 50:57

Just like the kids need the summer off and they come back mentally stronger sometimes, you need the rest. It's going back to the lean mass thing. I think that's an interesting one, right? Because I don't want to leave that in the listener's mind, like, what are they talking about? And also you, I want to make sure we clarify Um, yeah, it is everything except fat, right, so it's your muscle, your bone, your organs, your water.

Philip Pape: 51:23

At the same time, when you look at the change in your lean mass, your, your organs aren't going to change. They might change a tiny bit, but they're not going to change. Your bone's not going to change in terms of, like, the mass. Um, so what's left? Well, what's left is muscle and water and fluid, glycogen, all that. And then you can say, okay, well then, at least we ruled out the bones and the organs for the change. And so people then are like, well, how much of it is fluid? Because you could get overly exuberant. Like you said, I gained five pounds, so therefore, it's all muscle, and it only might be three pounds of muscle and two pounds of fluid. And what we usually see happen right, as you're done with the bulk, you start to cut and all of a sudden you have fast weight loss at the beginning. Cause that's the fluid coming right back off.

Philip Pape: 52:05

And when you just start doing the numbers and measure your body fat percentage trend and you use that times your weight, it gives you your you know fat versus lean mass. You'll find that your lean mass all of a sudden drops fast, right. And so when you gained five pounds, when you go back into your cut it might drop two pounds and what's left kind of gives you an indication of how much muscle you gained.

Cynthia: 52:26

Gotcha Okay, that's kind of where I'm going with all that.

Philip Pape: 52:30

All right, and it almost doesn't matter Like do you feel good, are you strong? Do you look good? Do you like yourself in the mirror? Like, at the end of the day, that's what we're going for right, not all the numbers, even though they're fun. Um, okay, all right, so is there? Is there any other thing that you need help with? We'll start there. That's it. That's my question.

Cynthia: 52:50

Um, well, I need a million dollars, and I'm kidding. Well, you do that by getting strong and fit and then going after your dreams. Yes, no, it's just the patience part of it and just building the muscle and just being consistent. One of the things that I do feel encouraged by you is the fact that I can still gain muscle and lose fat even during perimenopause, and that's one thing that I really enjoyed learning from you, because you do hear outside sources saying it's not possible, and to actually hear someone say no, it is possible For me, it's like a breath of fresh air, you know, or however you say, it.

Philip Pape: 53:36

Yeah, no, that's perfect, beautifully said, and I hope people listening, women listening or men supporting women all take to heart what you just said. It's possible. We see it, you did it, you're doing it. Many, many other people are doing it and we get that excuse off your plate or that doubt off your plate. Then you could go after it. So you could go after it. So that's great advice to leave it with everyone listening.

Philip Pape: 53:57

And if you're listening and you're inspired by Cynthia's story, I'm sure she could connect to you, maybe in our Facebook group. Maybe it would be a good place to check Cynthia out, because I don't want to share all her personal information. But if you guys want to basically follow the same approach, we've got all that in Physique University. This is the only pitch I'm going to give you today. That is where we have the courses that Cynthia mentioned and the step-by-step system, the tracking, the strategies, and she mentioned a few times like she reached out, and that's what you do in there.

Philip Pape: 54:26

You just post or you say, hey, philip, I got an issue, what do I do?

Philip Pape: 54:29

And I'm going to chime in within like, same day, probably I'm going to come in and say here, same day, probably I'm going to come in and say here's the plan, I'll send you a video, I'll do something and then everybody else in the community learns from that. So if, like, if, you jump in and you're brand new and you want to know about training, you could search training and you could see all the discussion about training. Um, and so you want to go to what's on weightscom slash physique to learn more about that or click the link in the show notes. But, cynthia, thank you so much for doing this, for joining my sales pitch today, for doing this coaching session together. We actually did this because you won our first challenge. I forgot to mention that it was a walking step challenge and Cynthia was, like, super committed to increasing her step count and being engaged and the community voted her the winner and we said let's do a coaching session for everyone to kind of celebrate this. So thank you very much for doing this.

Cynthia: 55:17

Yeah, thank you. Thank you for having me and thank you for everyone who voted for me as well. It was awesome.

Philip Pape: 55:23

And they're all going to hear this. I know they are. So all right listener. Thanks for tuning in to Wits and Weights and hearing Cynthia's story. I hope everybody was inspired and takes heart in the ability to do whatever you want to do for your muscle, for your body, even in perimenopause, no matter if you're a man or woman of any age. Go after it.

How to Build Muscle Despite Injuries and Limited Mobility | Ep 318

Submit a question for the podcast (and get a personal reply plus a shoutout) at witsandweights.com/question

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Ever feel like your strength training goals are slipping away because of nagging injuries or mobility limitations? 

That persistent shoulder pain during pressing, the foot injury that flares up when walking, or those mobility restrictions that make certain movements feel impossible can be incredibly frustrating. But what if these challenges aren't roadblocks but redirections?

Today we're answering listener Tom's question about training with shoulder pain, foot issues, and mobility limitations. 

The truth is, everyone who lifts weights long enough will encounter physical limitations. The difference between those who continue making progress and those who stagnate isn't about genetic luck or perfect health—it's about mastering the art of training around limitations.

Learn the powerful mindset principles that allow you to continue building muscle and strength despite injuries or limitations, and why the most successful lifters aren't those with perfect bodies, but those who master the art of training around their constraints.

Main Takeaways:

• Why "adaptation, not abandonment" should be your fundamental training principle

• How constraints can actually accelerate your progress by forcing smarter training

• The expanded definition of progression beyond just adding weight

• Why compensatory patterns matter and how to become aware of them

• The importance of redefining what "progress" means when working around limitations

Timestamps:

0:01 - The challenge of training with limitations
2:16 - Why this affects lifters of all ages and experience levels
4:34 - The adaptation mindset vs abandonment
6:30 - Constraint as a catalyst for better training
10:13 - The primacy of progression principle
12:52 - Holistic adaptation management
15:39 - Compensatory awareness
17:06 - Deliberate variability in exercise selection
22:49 - Redefining progress beyond PRs
27:26 - Why limitations are redirections, not roadblocks

Submit a question for the podcast (and get a personal reply plus a shoutout) at witsandweights.com/question

Strength Training with Limitations Isn’t a Setback, It’s a Shortcut

When you’ve been lifting consistently but injuries, pain, or limited mobility keep getting in your way, it’s easy to feel stuck. You might start questioning whether it’s even worth it anymore. But I want you to know something most lifters overlook: your limitations are not a dead end—they're actually the fast track to becoming a smarter, stronger, and more resilient lifter.

This episode was inspired by a listener named Tom, who at age 60 is navigating a desk job, shoulder pain, and a healing foot injury—all while trying to keep strength training a core part of his life. But this isn’t just about older lifters. If you’ve been training for a while, you will run into obstacles. And how you respond determines whether you keep making progress… or not.

Let’s break down the 6 principles I covered in this episode to help you adapt and thrive—even when your body isn’t cooperating.

1. Adaptation Over Abandonment

The most important shift is mental: stop seeing injuries as reasons to quit. Instead, ask: How can I modify this movement to challenge myself safely? Whether it's pressing with a neutral grip, switching to incline work, or ditching the barbell altogether, your options are endless—if you're willing to explore them.

Think of it this way: there’s always a version of a movement that you can do pain-free. That’s your new baseline. From there, you build.

2. Constraint Is a Catalyst for Progress

Injuries force you to train smarter. They push you to improve technique, tighten up your programming, and explore movement patterns you’ve ignored. That limitation? It might actually be the thing that forces your breakthrough.

When I had rotator cuff surgery, I couldn’t press for months. But it forced me to refine my squat form, dial in unilateral work, and rebuild from the ground up. The end result? Better balance, better proprioception, and yes—more muscle.

3. Prioritize Progression, Not Perfection

Progressive overload is still the game—but it’s not always about slapping more plates on the bar.

Here are ways to progress without increasing load:

• More reps with the same weight

• Better range of motion

• Improved tempo or control

• Rotating through variations that reduce pain but still challenge the same muscles

Progress is personal. If you're recovering from injury and can move pain-free through a deeper ROM than last week, that's a win.

4. Manage Recovery Holistically

If you’re dealing with pain or injury, your recovery capacity is already compromised. That means sleep, stress, and nutrition matter even more.

Don’t diet aggressively during recovery. Don’t overdo cardio (especially high-impact). And don’t ignore sleep quality.

Training while healing means understanding the full stress-recovery-adaptation equation and being more strategic than ever.

5. Watch for Compensation Patterns

When you favor one limb or shift your mechanics to avoid pain, you risk creating new problems. This is where compensatory awareness comes in.

Film yourself. Use mirrors. Ask for feedback. Look for asymmetries that creep in when you’re working around an injury, and address them early before they turn into chronic issues.

For example, shoulder pain can lead to overloading the opposite side or tweaking your wrist angle, which then becomes its own issue.

6. Use Variability to Stay Stimulated and Safe

A limited movement repertoire can lead to stagnation—or worse, repetitive strain. When you're dealing with pain or mobility issues, deliberate variation becomes a strength-building tool.

Rotate exercises week to week. Use different bars, grips, and angles. If a movement irritates you, swap it out for something similar. For pressing, think landmine, floor press, or neutral dumbbell work. For legs, maybe belt squats instead of back squats.

Just make sure your variations are repeatable enough to track progress. Random doesn’t work. Structured variety does.

Redefine What Progress Means

When we’re injured, we tend to define progress too narrowly. But here’s what real progress can look like:

• Less pain during movement

• Greater range of motion

• Maintaining strength during recovery

• Better form, tempo, or control

• Improved mind-muscle connection

I’ve had clients who couldn’t squat due to knee pain—but we found a variation that worked, and months later, not only were they pain-free, they’d added muscle they were never able to build before.

Training around limitations isn’t a concession—it’s a skillset. One that, frankly, makes you a better lifter than someone who’s never had to think about it.

So if you’re in a season where your body isn’t cooperating, I challenge you to stop asking if you can train—and start asking how.

Because there is always a way. You just have to be curious enough to find it.

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Transcript

Philip Pape: 0:01

If you're committed to strength training but you feel like you've hit a wall because of nagging injuries or mobility limitations, you're definitely not alone. When shoulder pain makes pressing nearly impossible, when that foot injury flares up after a few thousand steps, or when your body simply doesn't move the way it used to, it can feel like your options are disappearing. Today we are addressing the real challenges of strength training with physical limitations. Today, we are addressing the real challenges of strength training with physical limitations. You'll discover why injuries are not roadblocks but they are redirections, how constraint breeds creativity in your training and the mindset shift that transforms limitations from frustrations into opportunities. Welcome to Wits and Weights, the show that helps you build a strong, healthy physique using evidence, engineering and efficiency. I'm your host, philip Pape, and today I'm tackling another question from a listener, tom, who's been training for decades but still feels like he has not achieved his goals. Tom is 60, he works a desk job. He has some specific challenges, such as shoulder pain during pressing movements I can relate to that a recently healed foot fracture and mobility limitations. But the principles we're going to get into today apply to really anyone that is dealing with injuries or mobility issues, regardless of age. It's just some of these things start to pile on the older we get, so it makes total sense that oftentimes we focus on older populations here. Before we get into this, if you have a question that you want me to answer just like I'm doing today for Tom and you want a personal reply as well and, by the way, I give very detailed, very helpful, specific replies when I do this and then I give you a shout out on the show, like I am today for Tom, if you want that on a future episode, or just to have a question answered, go to witsandweightscom slash question or click the link in the show notes Again, witsandweightscom slash question. I personally read and respond to every single one. All right, let's start by addressing the core of Tom's question and probably what's on the minds of many of you listening, and the situation is this you have been consistently training, so again, this is geared toward.

Philip Pape: 2:16

Folks who have gotten into lifting are trying to do the right things. If you don't even lift weights yet, that's a different situation. You might actually like my recent episode about back pain and how lifting can help with that, because for a lot of folks they're avoiding lifting for certain reasons. Right now we're talking about people who have been lifting. And then you want to build muscle, you want to improve your physique, you want to get stronger, but your body is giving you feedback in the form of pain or limitations right, a very normal response for your body. Sometimes, in fact, most of the time, we have to listen to that and do something, or else it's not gonna change.

Philip Pape: 2:51

And this is a universal challenge that affects lifters of all ages and experience levels. Let me repeat that it affects everyone. Okay, if you think you're unique, you're not. I'm 44, it affects me, I know. You know 25 year olds, 30 year olds, once they get into lifting and it's not the lifting itself, it's more of the accumulation of the fatigue and sometimes things that need to be corrected, like form.

Philip Pape: 3:16

Um, it could be injuries outside the gym that then affect your lifting. There's a lot of reasons for it, so we never want to oversimplify, especially given that weightlifting lifting weights is listed often as the safest form of activity in the world compared to any activity. When you look at injury rates, now you could be 25 and recovering from a sports injury, you could be 45, with some accumulated wear and tear just from life or maybe a lack of lifting for many years that has made you weaker and has made you prone to injury, or 60 and over, like Tom. The principles of working around injuries and still making progress are the same. So that's the key for today's episode is how do we keep going, how do we keep making progress without quote unquote pushing through or injuring ourself and making it worse? So I want to first share what I believe is the most fundamental principle when it comes to training with limitations, and that is adaptation and not of finding that positive not delusional but realistically positive shift in how you view this to open up new possibilities, and that alone can transform your approach.

Philip Pape: 4:34

If you're making excuses, if you're the type of person that goes into a Facebook group and says, well, I want to do the things you guys are suggesting, but I can't because I have this issue, it's like you know what we all. I can't because I have this issue. It's like you know what. We all have issues, we all have physical limitations. I talked to a guy who was paralyzed from the waist down and he still lifts weights. All right, I had rotator cuff surgery. My arm was in a sling, totally immobile, immobile. I still lift weights. I know somebody in our group who had hernia surgery and as soon as she could, she still lifted weights.

Philip Pape: 5:05

So most people make mistakes one of two mistakes, I'll say. I'm going to narrow it down to two mistakes, one of two when they encounter these limitations, either they try to push through the pain, they potentially cause more damage Now those are the go-getters, right. I can appreciate that. I can appreciate that type of person who wants to keep going or they completely abandon certain movement patterns or even training altogether, which is really really sad for me. And they're both extremes of a spectrum Okay, both extremes. I almost feel like training through it and potentially causing more damage is somehow better than just not training at all, because you're going to get weak and frail and probably die younger. But neither of them are great, okay.

Philip Pape: 5:49

So what does the adaptation mindset say? It says how can I modify this movement to work within my current limitations while still challenging myself? That's really it, because we're trying to. Not only are we trying to adapt our mind, we're trying to adapt our bodies through strength and training for muscle. That's really it, because we're trying to. Not only are we trying to adapt our mind, we're trying to adapt our bodies through strength and training for muscle. That's why we do it, and so we need to find a way to continue doing that find that sweet spot between avoiding movement and aggravating the problem. So for Tom specifically and I did give him a very detailed reply, but you know for his shoulder pain right During pressing, I can relate to that a hundred percent personally this does not mean never doing pressing movements again.

Philip Pape: 6:30

It means finding variations that don't cause pain. This could be neutral grip presses, close grip presses, using a slingshot, using an incline instead of flat, traditional benching, using a landmine press instead of overhead, using floor presses. I could go on. I mean I can't actually give you all the list of things you could do because it's practically unlimited the way you can vary things through grips and bars and equipment and machines and body angles, so many ways. And so if you say just no, I can't do it, that is not an adaptation or a growth mindset.

Philip Pape: 7:09

The second principle is what I call constraint as a catalyst. I know there's a lot of alliteration in here, but hey, the show is called Wits and Weights. So constraint as a catalyst, and this is. I love counterintuitive ideas. This is one of them. Okay, this is the. I love counterintuitive ideas. This is one of them. Okay, this is the idea that limitations can accelerate your progress by forcing you to train more intelligently. And I fully embrace this, wholeheartedly, because it's happened to me time and again. Every time something happens, whether it's an injury or a something in my life that interrupts my training and I have to figure out a way around it. You've heard of the phrase and the book. In fact, obstacle is the way. The obstacle is the way. That's exactly. The philosophy here is that the more obstacles and roadblocks and bumps you face along the way, the more you're going to learn better strategies. It's going to make you smarter and more adaptable.

Philip Pape: 8:00

All right, when everything feels great, when you have no limitations, when it's just ho-hum, here we go, it's easy to fall into complacency. You know patterns of convenience and that may not even be effective. That's the interesting thing is, you may not be effectively training when you do that. You might gravitate toward exercises that you're good at or you enjoy, but you're neglecting areas that need attention. But when constraints into the picture and this is where my engineering mind just goes gaga over this right. When constraints into the picture, you're forced to experiment, you're forced to try new movement patterns, to pay closer attention to form and mind-muscle connection and where you have pain, versus, oh, if I do it this slightly different way, I'm not going to have any pain at all. Wow, that's, that's an incredible revelation for me. Now I can make progress and now I can use this variation of the squat instead of this variation and I could just progress the hell out of that squat and I'm still going to build muscle and strength Right.

Philip Pape: 8:59

And then this leads to more balanced development, better, um, being in better tune with your body, your proprio reception, as they call it, your muscles, how they respond, et cetera. You just become really, really dialed in on the feel, part of it, but from an objective way and because you had to alter the path, and I've seen this with just so many clients. Look, most, if not all, clients come to me because they haven't been able to Be successful 100 on their own and in fact, I would say that's everybody like I. I hire coaches because there's aspects that I need to learn more of or figure out a different perspective on. And when I look at someone who has a knee issue and they say, well, I can't back squat because I have a knee issue. And they say, well, I can't back squat because I have a knee issue. Or like, well, let's look at belt squats and let's look at split squats and hack squats and all of that, and just find the thing that doesn't hurt your knee, because there is something right, like presses, whatever. And then three, six months later, not only is their knee feeling tons better, but now their leg development has improved, because now they're hitting the muscles from angles that they neglected before and they're, you know, getting well-rounded, uh, in terms of what they they push for for the exercise selection. So that's the second principle.

Philip Pape: 10:13

The third principle is what I call the primacy of progression. So this is just going all out on the alliteration here. Primacy of progression, all right, despite injuries and limitations, progressive overload, still guess what? It's still the driver of adaptation, your physiological adaptation. It's the thing that challenges you to grow and get stronger, build muscle. The difference is just the method, just the how. How do you implement it right? And guess what, even without injuries, you're going to implement it slightly different than somebody else anyway, but the principles are the same.

Philip Pape: 10:51

Now most people think of progressing in the gym as a very limited thing, like just adding weight to the bar right, especially if you come from the starting strength world, like I do. Sometimes we get fixated on that, and that is great for a beginner, but when you're more advanced or you're working around injuries progression, you have to open up your definition of how progression occurs, because at the end of the day, you're just trying to apply neuromuscular adaptation and mechanical tension to your body so that you challenge itself, right, so this could be removing the pause at the bottom of a movement, like a bench press. So it doesn't, so the stretch reflex doesn't exacerbate your shoulder right, just or not removing the pause, what did I just say? Adding a pause, removing the bounce, adding the pause at the bottom of a bench right, okay, and then you can start to progress, or adding reps instead of load until you can add so many reps that you need to increase the load. It could be improving your range of motion within the pain free boundaries that you're starting to explore Right, and that could be, for example, doing a pin press and gradually dropping the pins lower and lower until they're gone. That's what I did when I was recovering from rotator cuff surgery. It could be playing around with rest periods. It could be adding sets Like there's so many ways.

Philip Pape: 12:14

I did a whole episode on progressive overload a while ago. You can search for it If you go to podcastwitsandweightscom. You can search all my episodes but we have to expand our idea of how to accomplish progressive overload that respects the limitations you have. This is the principle, the first principles approach, the primacy of progression that allows you to continue making gains when what you think of as traditional or the only way is not available to you Because in reality there is not the only way, is not available to you because in reality there is not an only way. I've tried so many different approaches and they all work, as long as they respect the principles.

Philip Pape: 12:52

Speaking of principles, the fourth principle today that I want to talk about is I'll call it holistic adaptation management. So this is not alliteration, couldn't do it for this one. Holistic adaptation man. I'm not talking about alternative medicine and holistic wellness. I'm talking about that when you're training with limitations, your body's recovery capacity could be compromised right, you may not be able to recover as quickly or in the same way you did when you were healthy or when you were not injured not with these limitations and you have to more intentionally manage the stress recovery adaptation cycle and really be conscious of it.

Philip Pape: 13:28

And that means you have to pay closer attention to sleep quality, right? Not just sleep duration, but quality. Are you going to bed and waking up at the same times every night, for example? Are you avoiding screens before bed, those kinds of things? You know? How are you sleeping? Your mattress, your pillow, that stuff, right? Sleep apnea? Whatever your nutrition, right? You probably shouldn't be dieting all the time, or very often at all.

Philip Pape: 13:50

I usually say that once you have developed your goal body composition, you should only diet for maybe two months out of the year, right. And if you're dealing with a recovery from an injury, right. Or you're sick or you had surgery, you definitely shouldn't be dieting after that at all. That's just going to add too much stress and sap you of energy. And the same thing goes for stress, perceived stress, chronic stress, all of that. And so you may have to have more deliberate deloads or vary your intensity or change the volume, right, and just be strategic about it. And I can't tell you which one it is for you. That's where advanced or not even advanced, but like smart programming, comes in and working with a coach, or really understanding how programming works, but also listening to your body through biofeedback, not just subjective, feel, day to day, but also objectively, over time tracking it.

Philip Pape: 14:40

So, for example, tom, who wrote in the question, he said that his foot gets sore after about 10,000 steps. Well, that is valuable, precise feedback from his body about his current recovery capacity and rather than pushing through saying, well, I need to get more steps, I'm trying to lose fat or whatever, and then you cause a setback because your foot is sore and now you can't do other stuff, he can use the information to modulate his training and activity levels, and what I suggested for in his case was, if you still want to get the metabolic equivalent of those steps, do something that doesn't involve walking right. Use an elliptical or a bike. Something like that is a very simple solution to avoid what could be causing your foot to get sore. Now, we didn't get into, like footwear. Is he wearing barefoot versus healed shoes? Does he have? Is he flat footed, like I'm flat footed, so I have to wear slightly wider box shoes, things like that as well. You know, is he doing a lot of uh up and down versus flat, et cetera? So that's the the.

Philip Pape: 15:39

The fourth principle is really this holistic adaptation management, managing your recovery, managing the whole thing. The fifth principle is what I call compensatory awareness. Compensatory awareness okay, this is, I talk about awareness all the time here. Like you track your food, you get aware. Right, we have an injury or limitation. Well, we're aware of the injury, but then we often unconsciously develop compensations or patterns that can lead to issues everywhere. And so then now we have to be deliberately aware of these compensations. So when I say compensatory awareness, that's what I'm talking about here, is awareness of the compensations that you're making because of your injury that could be causing other issues. For example, here's a good example Shoulder pain often leads you to alter your mechanics during the pressing movements, and then these will place some stress on your elbow, your wrist or maybe the opposite shoulder, your foot injury.

Philip Pape: 16:37

That could affect a lot. It could change your gait, your squat mechanics, it can cause knee, hip issues, right, and you may have to approach these movements with extra awareness of your body. Maybe take video of yourself, right. Work with a coach, say, hey, does something look off here? Symmetry-wise, you may need different footwear, you may need different equipment, right? There's just a lot of possibilities here. So, compensatory awareness how are you compensating? All right.

Philip Pape: 17:06

The next, the sixth and final principle is deliberate variability. Now, this is just the variation on the theme, no pun intended variation, but the variation on the theme of variation, of of deliberately making things change. So, when you have limitations, this is often the best time to have different exercise variation in there, not just to work around the pain but also to have, I'll say, more robust adaptations that you need because you're not able to push with a lot of the main exercises that you wish you could. If you take a traditional strength programming, we want to be very consistent with our exercise selection because we want to be able to progress on those movements right, and this is always important, like I don't want you doing YouTube workouts where you're just jumping around all over the place with random exercises. No, but when you have limitations, it helps to have a broader repertoire of exercises available so you can rotate the stress around and then avoid overloading a single joint or tissue, and I think it's. I think this is important in general for lifters.

Philip Pape: 18:12

We talk about the West side conjugate method, or we talk about um, building a base versus building a peak, and how you rotate around to different movements and not. You know, you don't want to be back squatting every single session forever, or else you both have too much stress for the movement, plus you're missing your weak spots. But when you have a limitations it just opens up that uh, capacity, ability or necessity. I should say even more, and that goes back to my earlier principle about how this is going to make you a more intelligent lifter and actually help you grow faster, as in both creative and application areas of lifting, in that you need to figure out other movements and there's so many creative things out there.

Philip Pape: 18:55

Um, my friend Tony he's probably listening introduced me to the Omni bar. Introduce me to the Omnibar. It has these grips that can rotate 360 degrees from any level of neutral, not like the width of the grips, but they actually rotate in a circle. They have ball bearings and so you could push or pull with a neutral grip that's comfortable for your shoulder, for example. Or you might use other aids, like I use a slingshot when I do bench pressing to take some of the load at the bottom.

Philip Pape: 19:28

For Tom, who wrote in the question, this might mean having three different pressing variations, that he rotates between his sessions and kind of comes back and forth to them so he might do two of them or three of them across three weeks and then in week four he comes back to the first variation again and he's still progressing them, but he's rotating through and avoiding irritating tissue that even though you've modified to avoid pain, you still could be hitting something a little too much, and now you get more time to recover between exposures to those different stressors, right? So thinking more about Tom's situation got my notes here. He has a push pull leg split and fundamentally, fundamentally, that's like a perfectly sound split. You guys have heard of that. That's a normal type of training split. But if we were to adjust it for his situation and limitations, I would say number one for the pressing issue we would probably do more neutral grip presses, landmine presses, maybe floor presses I mentioned a bunch of these earlier.

Philip Pape: 20:27

Find shoulder-friendly variations. There are a lot and a lot of them. You don't realize until you go exploring and go look it up. Like, let's say, you want to do dumbbell, incline presses, right, a great accessory for your chest press, for your bench press. Well, most people think, okay, I need to hold them perpendicular to my body and push up just like a bar. Well, they're dumbbells. So you have one in each hand Guess what? You can rotate it so they're neutral, so they're in parallel. See how that feels. I just did those this morning and they don't bother my shoulder at all. Right, so that's for pressing. Again, you can use pin presses. There's a lot of ways to do that while you still press.

Philip Pape: 21:00

For the foot issue, he has, I kind of mentioned before reducing step volume but adding in non-step volume for movement like biking or an elliptical. You could even do something like pressing prowlers, where you make it a lot harder form of cardio but you're not getting a lot of impact on your feet. And then he also mentioned mobility concerns and my my response to the mobility concern was more of is there a form of the movement that you can still do for a full range of motion to develop the mobility? It sounds like chicken and egg, right? Some people say, well, I have, my ankles aren't very mobile, my hips aren't very mobile, whatever. And I say, hey, here's a box, can you squat down to this 12 inch box? And they have no problem doing that, just without any bar or anything else Like if you can get fully down below, parallel onto a box, you could do it with load on your back, and then you can do it with heavier load on your back, and guess what that is? Mobility.

Philip Pape: 22:03

Now you may have mobility issues that are more severe, like, for example, I do with my left shoulder where it's just so tight with the external rotation, and in that case I use the squat safety bar oftentimes instead of the a normal bar for my squat, and that way you're just kind of working around them. You can still develop the mobility through, you know, physical therapy, stretching, stretching into the movement, et cetera. For example, with a back squat you can stretch into the bar as part of your warmup and kind of open up yourself, so you have better mobility. But if it's more severe than that, you may have to just do other movements. So this is the framework. If you're listening, you're trying to navigate your own unique challenges, whatever they are. Again, they're they're unique to you, but there are not unique in general. Everybody has challenges, the. I hope these frameworks and these principles can help you think through it.

Philip Pape: 22:49

One more thing I want to emphasize is that when you train with limitations, you have to, you have to shift your perspective about what constitutes progress. Okay, because I think we've been conditioned to measure ourselves through PRs. I think I'm going to do a whole episode on this. I think sometimes we treat PRs kind of like we treat weight on the scale, like if it's not going in the direction we want, constantly we're a failure. And that's not true at all. Right, you know, maybe when you're a rank beginner and nothing is going up in load, there's something going on for sure. But once you get a bit strong and have a bit of muscle, there's other ways we progress, kind of like we talked about earlier. And so in this case, in this context where you have injuries or limitations, what I'm talking about specifically is having things that you can celebrate as wins, besides just the pure training progress. For example, being able to move through a greater range of motion without pain. I mean, that's a huge one. Until you don't have range of motion, you don't realize how valuable this is.

Philip Pape: 23:51

When I recovered from my shoulder surgery, I obviously couldn't even I could barely lift my arms above parallel, let alone get into an overhead press. Are you kidding me? And so my dream then became to get to an overhead press. Are you kidding me? And so my dream then became to get to an overhead right, and there's a process, and now you have to progress over time to get closer and closer to the overhead. So I would take video of myself pushing this bar hanging from straps from a pull-up bar, pushing it out and getting it higher and higher and being hugely excited when it would add another inch to the height. That's progress, right? Or what about just maintaining your strength when you're healing from an injury or surgery? Have you heard of the crossover effect when, let's say, your left arm is in a sling? Well, you could still do some, say, bicep curls with your right arm. There's going to be a crossover, a transfer through cellular and hormonal mechanisms in the body it's not really fully understood that maintains strength on the injured arm. It's incredible Instead of it atrophying, instead of the muscles wasting not wasting but instead of muscle decline, you'll hold onto it and that's progress.

Philip Pape: 24:57

What about the quality of your movements, right? Maybe before you were injured, you didn't really think too much about your form and your squat or your deadlift, and now that you have been injured you have to be really, really careful. So it's gonna force you to say you know what I really need to go back in that book, go watch those videos. Go listen to Phillip, go do a form check and really dial this in so I get the movement quality correct. It's better lifter. Also, better fatigue management. Right, again, that's a form of progress.

Philip Pape: 25:24

Are you able to manage your fatigue, your recovery, where you no longer have those really sharp pangs in your lower back because you've been deadlifting too much. Right Just was too much volume, for example, and you never gave it another thought, you just pushed through. Well, now you need to manage it and you're like, well, I'm going to get in some Romanian deadlifts, that I'm going to get in some other poles, some rows, maybe do some rack poles and then do some deadlifts. I'm going to rotate through, I'm going to keep the volume reasonable, the intensity high, and I'll be much better off, and so you can grow from that. And then, finally, I would say mind-muscle connection.

Philip Pape: 26:03

As much as it gets criticized in some circles, I think there's huge value in understanding the neuromuscular connection there between your brain, your thoughts conscious and otherwise, your muscles, how they move, what you're feeling when you move them and how that translates to growth, injury prevention, fatigue management and working around your limitations. So these are all valid, meaningful forms of progress that are going to contribute to the long-term success. You see, this isn't a cakewalk. This isn't something you learn in a day. This is a lifelong process of growth and learning and I take that as a really amazing, fun, exciting thing.

Philip Pape: 26:37

If that sounds like a negative to you, it's time to reframe this whole thing. Why are you doing this right? Are you doing this because you want to get strong and be able to get off the toilet when you're 85 and be able to pick up kids and grandkids and go play outside and play sports, to walk with an upright posture, to avoid bone brittle, bones and frailty and breaking your hip when you fall right. Like what is that for you? Just revisit that and why it's important, because I don't I don't know about you. I do not want to be weak and frail when I'm get older, where other people, including my family and kids, have to take care of me. I just don't want to be there, and I guess I guess the last thought I'll leave you with is going full circle to one of my earlier statements that everyone who lifts is going to have some limitations or injuries at some point.

Philip Pape: 27:26

You're just going to accept it, except that you're going to and the most successful lifters aren't the ones who didn't get injured. They're also not the ones who have any sort of genetic advantage or perfect health. They're the ones who master the art of training around limitations. That's a powerful statement. Think about it Almost every long-term lifter eventually encounters injuries or limitations, and not even long-term, I'll be honest, like it won't take long before something happens. And again, it's not always caused by lifting, but it's going to happen in your life. It's just practically unavoidable if you train for decades, if you're a human living in the world. And the difference between those who continue to make progress and those who stagnate, it's not their programming, it's not because this person had this injury and this person had this. It's how they respond to the limitation.

Philip Pape: 28:11

Do they embrace this constraint as catalyst principle we talked about? Right? That fuels innovation, creativity, growth. The blessing of constraints, these limitations that force you to experiment, to adapt, ultimately to build that resilient, balanced physique that we're going for that's going to actually accelerate the process. Isn't that great, isn't that amazing? Your limitations will get you to the result you want faster, right?

Philip Pape: 28:36

You just have to be curious. I hope that's why you're listening to this podcast in general, and I hope you listen to lots of other episodes, because the recurring theme is always, yes, skepticism, but also curiosity. And all of that goes beyond physical training. I hope you guys know that I'm more of a philosophical type thinker. Here I try to understand where this all fits in the world, in the arc of human history, in my own life, in my relationships, in how I interact with other people, in being positive, in my psychology and mental health. It's all connected.

Philip Pape: 29:08

And the principles today of adapting rather than abandoning, of looking at constraints as a catalyst, of always trying to progress, of making everything work holistically, of being aware of how you compensate to things and deliberately varying things up so you can keep making everything work holistically, of being aware of how you compensate to things and deliberately varying things up so you can keep making progress these can be applied to any area of life where you face limitations. Just change the metaphor to apply to whatever the thing is right Adapting to a new job where you have restricted resources, navigating a challenging relationship, pursuing a goal where you don't have much time I mean, that's all of us right. These provide a framework for continued growth despite the constraints. So the obstacle is the way. The limitations aren't roadblocks, they're redirections. They don't determine whether you can progress, only how that's it, just how that's it. And so, once you know that you just have to find the how, have the right mindset, have that growth mindset, continue building muscle and strength, regardless of whatever cards you've been dealt, because you can and you will.

Philip Pape: 30:10

All right, I'll get off my soapbox, but I hope that resonated with you and Tom, I kind of went all over the place off of your question, but I think this is an important topic that you were the catalyst for.

Philip Pape: 30:21

So thank you, anyone listening. If you have a question for the podcast and you want a personal reply, and then you want me to go off and ramble like this and get deep and philosophical into the answer, or potentially I'll just answer it very practically and simply. We'll see. And then you want me to shout you out or not. Either way, go to witsandweightscom slash question or click the link in the show notes. I will personally read and respond to every question that comes in, and I think your question can then help lots and lots of other people who all face similar challenges like you. Until next time, keep using your wits lifting those weights and remember the most impressive strength isn't found in how much you can lift, but in your ability to adapt and thrive despite the inevitable challenges. This is Philip Pape, and you've been listening to the Wits and Weights podcast and I will talk to you next time.

Using Data to Break Free from Emotional Eating Patterns | Ep 317

Ever wonder why you keep eating when you're not actually hungry? 

The battle between emotions and rational decisions plays out most visibly in our eating habits, causing you to go "off track" (and sometimes way "off the rails"). Sound familiar?

Today's episode explores emotional eating through a completely different lens... using data and structure to identify patterns and solutions so you can stop flying blind and finally conquer emotional eating.

You'll discover why tracking certain metrics reveals surprises about your eating behaviors, how meal timing dramatically affects your psychological relationship with food, and tips to bridge the gap between analytical approaches and emotional intelligence.

Main Takeaways:

• Understanding patterns through tracking creates awareness without becoming obsessive

• Strategic meal timing and composition significantly influences emotional eating behaviors

• The powerful "if-then" approach creates a framework for managing challenging food situations

• Consistency in eating patterns helps your body develop safety signals that reduce stress eating

• Creating a balance between structure and flexibility is key to sustainable habits

Episode Links:

• Follow the Don't Call Me Skinny podcast for more great content from Sarah Krieger

• Listen to the companion episode about the psychological side of emotional eating: The Hidden Triggers Making You Overeat Without Realizing It

Timestamps:

0:01 - Emotional eating through a data lens
8:36 - Using data without becoming obsessive
15:43 - What to do based on your data
23:36 - Powerful "if-then" strategies when life trips you up
27:08 - Meal timing -> emotional eating patterns
31:11 - Macros for managing hunger
36:32 - Hunger vs. cravings
42:11 - The solution after years of dieting

Mastering Emotional Eating by Tracking the Right Data

Emotional eating is often framed as a purely psychological issue, and while that’s certainly part of it, there’s a much more objective tool most people overlook—data. When you feel like your emotions are steering the wheel with food, that’s actually the perfect time to bring in structure, not more willpower.

In this episode, I dive into the concept of emotional eating from a data-driven lens.

This isn’t about turning into a robot who lives by macros and spreadsheets. It’s about identifying real, trackable patterns behind your behaviors, so you can make changes that stick.

Why Emotional Eating Needs More Than Mindset Work

Many of my clients—especially those who've tried intuitive eating or pure mindset work—feel like they understand why they eat emotionally but still can’t seem to stop. That’s because awareness without feedback doesn’t lead to behavior change. You need measurable variables that act like breadcrumbs leading to the trigger.

For example:

• Meal timing

• Hunger levels before and after meals

• Training sessions and recovery

• Sleep quality

• Food composition (protein, fiber, processed foods)

When you track these, you begin to connect the dots. You realize that skipping lunch leads to late-night snacking. Or that undereating on rest days leads to low energy and cravings the next.

Track First, Interpret Later

One of the most common mistakes is assuming that the numbers themselves are the solution. But the power of data lies in what it tells you about your behavior. That’s why I don’t push clients to track everything at once or get obsessed with every little detail. Instead, I help them track just enough to get the right signal from the noise.

This often starts with:

• Protein intake: Are you getting 0.7 g/lb or more?

• Meal structure: Are you eating consistent meals, or just grazing all day?

• Training quality: Are your lifts progressing, or are you running on fumes?

Start there, and you’ll quickly see why that random bag of Goldfish at 9 p.m. isn’t about discipline—it’s your body screaming for energy after missing breakfast and skimping on lunch.

The Emotional Cost of Ignoring Structure

The irony is that the less structured someone is, the more anxious and emotionally reactive they tend to feel around food. Chaos breeds overthinking. Structure breeds peace of mind.

In the episode, I talked about how emotional recovery is just as much a part of the process as physical recovery. That means having go-to strategies when obstacles hit:

• If/Then planning: “If I go out for dinner, then I’ll order my go-to protein/fiber combo and skip the appetizer.”

• Meal timing rules of thumb: “Never go more than 4 hours without food.”

• Minimum effective tracking: Track hunger before/after meals and your meal timing for a week. That alone reveals so much.

This creates what I call structured flexibility: a framework where you don’t have to rely on willpower because the system supports your goals.

Why Overreliance on Tech Can Backfire

Not every piece of data is helpful. Your Fitbit telling you that you burned 647 calories in your HIIT class? Irrelevant. Trying to match food intake to a wildly inaccurate “calories out” number is a dead-end.

Instead, track output by results. If you’re losing fat, maintaining muscle, and feeling energized, your intake/output balance is probably in a good place. Trust the system—not your smartwatch.

Optimizing Macros for Hunger, Not Just Fat Loss

As calories drop during a fat loss phase, hunger becomes more of a challenge. This is where macro tweaks come in:

• Some clients need more carbs pre-workout to offset fatigue.

• Others need more fat to stabilize energy and mood.

• Some benefit from redistributing protein across the day, especially at breakfast.

This isn’t about perfection. It’s about tinkering just enough to feel good and keep momentum going. And yes, emotional eating will decrease when your body is better fueled.

Your Data is a Window into Your Behavior

If you take one thing from this conversation, it’s this: Data and emotion aren’t enemies. They’re two sides of the same coin. Tracking a few simple things—not obsessively—can give you the insight you need to finally feel in control.

So, if you’re stuck in the same “I know what to do, but I’m not doing it” cycle, maybe it’s time to stop guessing and start measuring. That’s how we move from emotional chaos to confident action.

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Transcript

Philip Pape: 0:01

Emotional eating is a struggle for many of us, even when you know exactly what to do with your nutrition. There's an interplay between our emotions and habits that derail even the most meticulously planned nutrition approach. But today we're going to explore emotional eating through the lens of data and structure. You'll learn how tracking certain metrics can reveal your emotional eating patterns, why meal timing affects your psychological relationship with food, and how to use data as a tool to create those sustainable habits you want, without becoming obsessive. This is all about balancing emotional and logical aspects of nutrition to transform your relationship with food.

Philip Pape: 0:50

Welcome to Wits and Weights, the show that helps you build a strong, healthy physique using evidence, engineering and efficiency. I'm your host, philip Pape, and today I'm sharing a recent appearance on the Don't Call Me Skinny podcast with registered dietitian Sarah Krieger. Now you might remember her because she was recently on the show discussing emotional eating from a psychological perspective. Well, in case you didn't catch this on her show, today I'm replaying the flip side of that conversation, where I joined her podcast to explore the data-driven approach to understanding and managing emotional eating. Many of you know me as the data guy. I love engineering, I love using systems and as someone who naturally gravitates toward structure and numbers, I've found that tracking certain metrics can provide really good, really invaluable insights into our eating patterns. But I've also learned that this approach needs to be balanced with awareness of our emotional triggers and our psychological responses to food, and not everybody responds the same way to using numbers, so it has to be very, very useful.

Philip Pape: 1:57

Now, during this conversation, we talk about how being an engineer influences my approach to nutrition coaching, how to interpret hunger cues versus emotional cravings, and then some strategies and tips to bridge the gap between data and emotions when it comes to food choices. Now, before we get into the episode, if you like what you hear today, all I ask is that you hit follow on Wits and Weights so that you catch every episode when they come out. They come out on Mondays, wednesdays and Fridays, and then I want you to go follow Sarah's podcast Don't Call Me Skinny wherever you listen to this, all right. So let's jump into my conversation with Sarah Krieger about approaching emotional eating through a data lens.

Sarah Krieger: 2:39

Welcome to another podcast of Don't Call Me Skinny. I'm super excited to be with you here today. We have a really great little collaboration that we are doing. I was a guest on a podcast with Philip Pate, wits and Weights and we talked about emotional eating from the emotional side, and today he's coming on my podcast today to talk to you guys about the emotional eating through data specifically, which I love because he is such a data guy. I'm not a data girl. I mean, I am a little bit, but not like he is. So check the link in the show notes If you want to take a listen. My version is on his podcast today. It's going out. We're doing it the same day so you can hear both sides at the same time, and so, yes, philip, thank you so much for joining me. I'm so excited to have you on here with me today.

Philip Pape: 3:33

I am so excited to be on again. I want to see you again on your show, so thanks.

Sarah Krieger: 3:38

Yes, of course, of course. What I want to do first is just can you give my listeners a little bit about who you are, where you're from and how you ended up in this and what makes you like I call kind of you the data king, like I literally listen to his podcast because he has these amazing guests on and it's all just so much about data, data, data. So can you go ahead and tell us a little bit about who you are, where you're from and how you got here.

Philip Pape: 4:05

Yeah, I suppose the data side comes from being an engineer. So I've been an engineer for more than 20 years, a software engineer, which is even more like nerdy and data centric, and so I get very annoyed when I can't figure out why something works. And so my whole life, through fitness, through nutrition, I was always a bit fluffy or overweight or always on diets. I mean, I'm old enough to have been on SlimFast and then Atkins. So we're, you know right about that generation in my mid forties and and I love being in my forties now, because I've kind of started to figure it out, you know, just starting to figure it out and uh, I did all the things right. I did, um, crossfit for about eight years. Eight years stressed myself to death doing CrossFit and doing all the diets.

Philip Pape: 4:47

But, having been an engineer and trying to figure it out, it wasn't until things got bad enough, let's just put it that way when I had a kid in my 30s, or my first daughter, and I kept getting more out of shape, the dad bod. It starts to hit you in your 30s and 40s where you can't make excuses anymore, or, for those of you with a fiery metabolism, in your twenties. It's going to. It's going to slow down eventually if you don't do something about it, right? So around the time I was going to turn 40, I just got fed up with it. I'm like, why isn't this working? Why isn't all this CrossFit and these cleaning jerks and like cutting carbs and doing keto? Why is it not working for me?

Philip Pape: 5:28

And I just dove headlong into or dived is the right way to say it, dived headlong into evidence-based nutrition and training and a lot of my early inspirations were the Muscle and Strength Pyramids by Dr Eric Helms and I think Andy Morgan was a coauthor.

Philip Pape: 5:45

A ton of podcasts, ton of videos, and this was a lot of. This was during the pandemic, so while people during that time were probably going the other direction in many cases with their fitness, I was starting to figure it out. I was putting together my home gym, I started strength training and about a year later I got into nutrition and then, almost a year after that, I started my podcast. I'm giving you the short version, but basically took a lot of learning and experimentation and a lot of that was learning how to track food and biofeedback and training and like how I felt to just see what worked and what didn't, along with the science, kind of like merging the two together, because if you're, if you fly in blind, or if you don't have a coach or help, the information is just overwhelming out here in the industry.

Philip Pape: 6:29

Even when you have three different people telling you and you trust them all, they're contradictory, right. So you finally like kind of started to figure it out. And then, just to make this story not longer than it needs to, be A guest on my podcast who was a power lifter and she was a coworker. She asked me to take over her nutrition coaching, like a few months later when her coaching was going to expire. So to get ready for that, I got certified and started working with free clients and then, through that process, figured out my systems, which are largely unchanged. They're definitely more efficient and effective, but they're very data centric systems, whereas I know you get a lot into also emotional and psychology. That, for me, came much later. It wasn't my strength, but by working with clients I became a lot more of an expert in those areas. So there you go.

Sarah Krieger: 7:21

No, I like that and it's interesting because, being an engineer, I mean really that's kind of what we do almost when we create our processes or when we are coaching a client. It's really it's very, it is very structured. Even though I do a lot of the mindset work, the emotional side of that, that's still kind of that's a structured element of this process, Right. So I think it's cool how it kind of like you're parallel, like you said, like I'm an engineer, but like that's kind of like what we do for wellness, essentially Like we're wellness engineers.

Philip Pape: 7:54

I don't know that's kind of cool. Yeah, yeah, I use physique engineering, wellness engineering. I think engineering comes down to systems, right and and structure. You said it great. I love the word structure because that's usually the word a lot of clients will use. They're like oh, it wasn't until I had this structured approach, even if the structure is around emotions, right, like it doesn't matter.

Philip Pape: 8:14

It's just awareness. We were talking about this on on my show. It's having awareness through some method, some framework, some step-by-step process that takes the stress off of you, that gives you some clarity, that gives you confidence that I can control my physique and I can control even my mental health, because they're tightly linked in many cases. So that's kind of where I come from with the show and with working with people.

Sarah Krieger: 8:36

Yeah, I love that. That's what I love. And speaking of this part of this, right, let's take that piece where we're talking about structure. Um, I know that we, we can see things go really the other way. Uh, I was actually watching. I don't do you ever follow, like jordan syatt I follow him okay I love him and he just did a whole mini, uh mini podcast.

Sarah Krieger: 8:58

He calls it yeah oh yeah, the pot, yep, uh. And he just did a post today on his Instagram about how he went so far the other way with all of this data that he had. You know, oh, I can be this lean and I can look like this and I can train like this and I can do all that stuff with all of this data. And how? From zero to 150? Because we can use data and it's great to have, but how do we prevent ourselves from going so extreme with it? I have to keep getting progress, I have to keep going. I have to keep losing weight. How do we find a balance with using the data that we get?

Philip Pape: 9:41

Yeah, that's a really great question. I think it comes down to it depends we were laughing about this on my my show that there's a spectrum of people's like propensity to do this. So naturally people will seek you out as a coach because you're a certain way Right. So people listen to my show will be like I'm so nerd, I love data. Give it to me. Like let's track everything at the same time, like biohacking and things like that.

Philip Pape: 10:03

I'm not track everything at the same time, like biohacking and things like that. I'm not. I'm not very much into that. Like I don't go overboard with the HRV tracking with your aura ring. I talk about it.

Philip Pape: 10:09

I think it's cool, I think it's a nice little side thing, but it does come down to the fundamentals. I'm like I don't care how much you're eating over here, doing over here, if you're not strength training, or I don't care how much you know um, or I don't know how many calories you have, until we understand your protein right. Like there's a certain priority that we start with to keep it simple, despite having the data. So when I tell my clients like we're going to collect a bunch of things, but I'm going to reduce the friction as much as possible for you and, as a coach, that's the way I take stress off of them and and I'm basically give them the emotional support it's like. Here's a couple things you need to do Track your food, track your workouts.

Philip Pape: 10:46

A lot of stuff's going to come through your watch, but don't worry about it. Like, at the end of the day, what happens in the first couple of weeks and you've seen this too, sarah is self-awareness starts to change their own behavior, and then the tracking doesn't become a chore. It's actually reframed as this thing's really helping me out. As far as the extreme you're talking about, there's a pocket of people who really like that, who like understanding oh, how much muscle am I gaining versus fat and how efficient is it? And like I've got a client, sarah, who wants to experiment with all the crazy Lyle McDonald diets, like the protein modified fast and the rapid fat loss, and I roll with him because that's what he wants and he's cool, he gets it and he loves data. Most, most people are not like that. Most people, it's like what are you eating? How much are you eating? You got protein, you're training, you're growing. We don't have to overthink it. So don't overthink it is my point.

Sarah Krieger: 11:34

Yeah, and I think that's where I think a lot of people get caught up, as you're talking about, like the Oura ring and the fitness watches, right? So here we are. We're all like. We are data driven, right. Oh, I'm going to get an X amount of steps. I'm going to get in.

Sarah Krieger: 11:50

You know, all this stuff, or my sleep, how I'm curious as to. I mean, you're talking about how you, how you help your clients, like, ok, we don't have to pay attention to all those things. We don't have to pay attention to all those things. What would you say, especially to those? We talked a little bit about this on your podcast when you were interviewing me, which was, like you know, making sure how many calories we're burning. Why Can we talk about the data there, about calories burned and why that might not really translate into actual burning of calories? Like this is something that I'm seeing a lot, where we think that we have to go exercise to work off the piece of cake, or I have to go go on the stair master for 45 minutes to burn 254 calories Exactly. I'm not really sure how people are getting that, but can you talk a little bit about how there's a disconnect here?

Philip Pape: 12:40

Yeah, that's a good one. Um, where do I start? So where do I start? So, first of all, when I work with folks and I use, there's an app that I like to use. It's called Macrofactor. You don't have to use it, but so far, unless you know differently, sarah, it's the only app I've found that isn't just a food logger, but it also estimates your rate of calorie burn. Rate of calorie burn.

Philip Pape: 13:06

And when people start using that, they say, well, where does it take your activity data? And I'm like it doesn't. I'm like let's think of your body as a system, as a black box. Energy comes in, energy goes out and, however, that energy changes based on weight, on the scale, over time not just the daily fluctuations, but over time, based on what you're putting in your mouth tells us really well what you're burning. Then the question is what do we do?

Philip Pape: 13:29

And what you're getting at is people try to burn more calories and eat less, and they burn more calories and eat less, and usually they're eating less in the wrong way, right, they're cutting the wrong things, or they're eating a lot of processed food, they're starving, they cut even more, they go on crash diets and then they're doing all this chronic metronomic cardio that honestly nobody likes, right, like only a tiny percentage of people really love doing quote unquote set, you know, steady state cardio. So I do love to explore, at least with my clients and on the podcast, how we use the data to get insights into how what we're doing affects our energy levels. And at the end of the day, I want you to feel energized and perform and be able to hit all the reps in the gym, be able to recover, get lots of stimulus from your lifts but not feel like it's wiping you out or making you super sore, and it's like this beautiful balance between it's called energy flux actually is the term people use. It's like I want to eat more and move more, but move more in the right way, by lifting, by walking, maybe a little bit of sprinting here and there and some play. And when you have that in the right proportions, you're feeling satisfied and potentially weight starts to come off anyway, because you're serving your body's needs and you're serving your satiety signals, your hunger signals, all of that and emotional eating.

Philip Pape: 14:44

It sounds like a side piece to all this, but it's actually super important, right? Because it controls you know what you eat, how you eat it, your patterns and everything. But people who are tracking and have this data tend to know what the heck's going on and then, if they don't change, the data continues to tell them that. So, anyway, I went off on some tangents. I don't know if you have specific questions related to that.

Sarah Krieger: 15:05

No, I mean, I like that because I feel like we get really caught up in the numbers, right, well, I have to track my data or I have to. I've used macro factor before. Um, I love Jeff Nibird and I love that and all those guys like he promotes it hugely. Uh, and it, it, it wasn't for me. I chose to stop using it, right, uh, because I would get really hung up. The the, not the data would actually make me then emotional and I was like I just really need to focus on what the protein is, what the fiber is and what my overall calories are, because it almost was like almost too much data coming at me. Um, personally, right, that's for me.

Sarah Krieger: 15:43

Um, so I'm curious then, leading out of that, like how do let's, let's talk about how, when we have so much like data coming at us, how then do we know what decisions we're supposed to make? How are we supposed to know what do I do with this data? Now, obviously, with that data, your clients have you right, but a lot of people don't know what they're supposed to do. Okay, so now I am feeling wiped after my workouts. I don't have any energy, I'm sleeping like absolute dog crap. Like what do I do now and how do? How do I know where I'm supposed to go from there?

Philip Pape: 16:18

I mean, I do think there's a bit of skill involved in understanding patterns of the data and that's why or data, or data, you know, data on Star Trek always got people for not calling them data. Anyway, are we British, are we American? It doesn't matter.

Sarah Krieger: 16:33

Well, it's funny because I started out saying data and now I'm saying data and I don't know.

Philip Pape: 16:37

I do that too. I do that too. So, which is plural for datum, which nobody uses, datum. We always say data as if it's singular. Anyway, that's me being a nerd. Um, so, yeah, I, here's a good example.

Philip Pape: 16:49

If someone like, say, listens to my show or goes into my Facebook group and I can tell they're completely lost, right, like, total babe in the woods, you know the type, right, like and this is no insult to anybody If you're listening and you're like, I don't know what to do, but I try to think of an education process. Like when you learn a new instrument, you don't start by playing Mozart, right, you start by playing a single note. And so what is their single note? Well, their single note is going to depend on what they do know already, or do not know, what they're willing to do, what they will, what's accessible, dah, dah, dah, dah dah. So I, you know, I'll do these like free calls with people and get on, and they're like I want to talk about training, I want to talk about nutrition, I got to do this, I got to do this, I got to do this, like, take a breath. Take a breath Like what's the, what's the gap of awareness you have right now. That would be easiest to solve as low hanging fruit. So ask yourself that question.

Philip Pape: 17:36

I think food is a good place to start nutrition, and that doesn't have to be calories and macros, like my fitness power macro factor. It could just be protein. How are you eating protein with every meal, right? Super simple eating protein fiber. Um, if it's your training, are you training? Like, honestly, this sounds crazy, but if you're not training your three days a week or whatever your you know goal is, even if it's one and you're not doing that consistently, I almost don't even care about how you're training. Let's figure out your time management. Let's figure out the space in your schedule. Let's figure out, like, how important this is to you, what's your why? So long story short, it doesn't have to be obsessive if you start small and then just build into that and get to the point of data that makes sense to you. You know, sarah, though, you have to be tracking something to measure it. Yeah Right, you have to track it to measure it.

Sarah Krieger: 18:28

Yeah. So you have to know and I think that you make a really good point there Like people are so worried about all the how much am I supposed to have? How many? How many minutes a day should I be? You know, training, how many minutes a day? Well, all this stuff. And you're like can we just make sure? And you said like can we just make sure we're eating protein at every single meal. Sometimes I have clients where I'm like do you know what a protein is?

Sarah Krieger: 18:54

Fair point, yeah, you know. Like, do you know what? Where there's fiber that's not in Metamucil, like we have to sometimes, it goes that far back and I say that because it's okay not to know those things, like so many people that I know they're like. Oh, I talk about this all the time, but peanut butter it's a protein and I'm like it's not a protein, guys.

Sarah Krieger: 19:14

Okay, it's a fat source, and that's what I hear all the time. Oh, but I'm eating eggs and sausage for breakfast Awesome, egg whites or whole eggs and turkey sausage or pork sausage, because that's going to determine what we shift, if we need to shift. So I think that you make a really good point. It's like, again, it doesn't have to be as complicated as what I think that this industry has made it to be, yeah, and like moving on from that, you know it's. I think that how do you, how would you say?

Sarah Krieger: 19:45

This is leading to another question, though but how would you say that? That the over, the overconsumption of all that information, how, how does that tie into? How do you, how do you kind of go for I don't know what I'm trying to say here the data versus the emotional, like, how do you get somebody to move from, like, okay, this is what we need, this is what the data says we need to do? But they're like I can't, I can't, I can't get through that, I can't move past this, or I can't, I can't eat more food, or I can't get to the gym, like you're talking about, like time management, like, how do you get somebody to take that data that you're receiving from them, but they have this really big emotional block. Are you able to get them to look logically at this or like how do you tie in that piece of it?

Philip Pape: 20:30

Yeah, that's a great question too, because the I joke with people that I, my brain goes to logic initially, but a lot of people's don't, and, like you're, what you're suggesting is that you have the data, you've measured the thing, you've got some awareness and now it's telling you something has to. You've measured the thing, you've got some awareness and now it's telling you something has to change. There's the what has to change, there's the how and there's the how. For me, Like, what's the thing blocking me?

Philip Pape: 20:53

And I'm definitely big into understanding roadblocks, challenges, anomalies and normalizing the fact that life is just naturally chaos in a good way, Like it's naturally unpredictable, and if you're kind of that stoic philosophy that the vast majority of things are actually out of your control, and if you realize that and just control the things you can, I think mentally that's an easier way to tackle life right, Like the obstacle is the way, so to speak. So, if a client now I keep talking about clients, obviously if you're listening and doing this for yourself, you have to go through this reflective process and be intentional. But it's like identify the one thing this week that was the obstacle, Because if you wanted to do certain habits and you didn't, something prevented you. Don't blame yourself. Don't say that I just need to do it, Like we joked on my show just, I don't need to do?

Philip Pape: 21:43

I just need to do it. No, that's not it, that's not enough. Okay, otherwise there'd be a million things I would never do if it was just up to willpower, trust me. Yep. So what is the obstacle? And then you just have to be a detective and go back to root cause. What's the root cause? And it you know. Sometimes it's deeper than others and sometimes you need a tool or process like, let's reduce decision fatigue.

Philip Pape: 22:02

If the issue was your friend keeps asking you to go out to dinner or to drinks at night, you have a lot of options. You could say no, or you can know that it's going to come and have your backup plan, your meal plan for that type of day, or you're going to the restaurant strategy or your whatever your posted note of how many drinks you're going to have. You know, like it's just thinking ahead with your past self, because we were talking about identity on my show. You talked about how your past self helped your current self. Well, everything you do today to plan ahead is an act of self-care for your future self. Meal plan, meal prep, strategizing and if, having, if then statements or if then strategies for these things is the way, in my opinion, to solve it, because they're going to happen. They're going to happen.

Sarah Krieger: 22:46

Yeah, I do that a lot. If this happens, then I'm going to do this, and I think that the if-then is really powerful, because the if-then can change if you need it to change. Right, if my friend asks me to go out, then I can tell them this. Or if I say yes, then I can do this. But even in the moment it's like okay, if I have another one, then what happens? How do I, what do I do now? Right? So I think that that one's so versatile because you can literally flip it right, right then and there like okay, if I get another drink, then this is going to happen. If I say no to another drink, then this is going to happen. Or this is how I feel, or this is what other people might say. Like, people might have comments about me not having another drink or just taking water. Um, so I think that if, then is super powerful. Do you find that your clients do have a really good like response to that?

Philip Pape: 23:36

technique. Oh sure, yeah, my clients are perfect and and and they just, they love me and every you know um no, I mean, but like honestly no no, I'm being honest too.

Sarah Krieger: 23:47

I love that.

Philip Pape: 23:47

I love that I do like on my show I joke about the coaching industry and myself and like we're not perfect, you know, and you should never claim to be. Yeah, I mean again, everybody's different. I tend to generally attract the person who is more like into the data and kind of side, but I will occasionally have a client who's like never heard of me and that's it. That's always interesting because I haven't like educated them through the podcast or through the basics yet and have to take them through that.

Philip Pape: 24:13

Look, I think you mentioned on the other show you have to have a conversation, you have to understand the person, understand their emotions. How can you be there for them non-judgmentally and take the emotional stress off? I think emotional recovery is a type of rest. It's a type of rest and recovery. And if, if a client, if I can be like look, don't stress, don't stress. I mean you can stress, but like I'm here for you, let's, let's go through this one step at a time. Uh, I can think of a client right now, sarah, who's fairly new to my program. She came in through a launch that I had and so it wasn't quite like seasoned with my stuff yet and there you can sense the impatience early on.

Philip Pape: 24:49

There's a lot of impatience of like I got to lose the fat, I got to lose the weight Right, and I'm slowly chipping away and finding her the parts that resonate with her, after realizing certain approaches were not working like the logical approach didn't work, and then the using data combined with emotion still didn't work, and I had to kind of slowly chip away at myself as a coach and learn about her to see what would help her feel like this is going to work for her, you know.

Sarah Krieger: 25:16

Yeah, and I think we talked we talked a little bit about this as well on the other episode, which was allowing yourself that space to say, okay, that didn't work. And I think again, as you just mentioned, we're all perfect, right, us coaches, we're just, we're amazing, you know right, even us as coaches have go, oh, that did not work with that client. Like, okay, now I know, like this potential type of person this might not work with, and stay away from it, like, okay, nevermind, and we move on from that. And then we're like, but again, we try again. We keep going after that next thing Be like, okay, well, let's try this instead.

Philip Pape: 25:52

So also taking that pressure of like this has to work or this is your only option, there's lots of options for lots of people, I think you know so yeah, I think I think if you are looking for a coach, look for somebody who's like a total, I'll say, bulldog or whatever, but very persistent, curious, skeptical, uh, growth mindset Like I. I try to convey through the pod One of the reasons I do the podcast to just like lay it all bare and let people know I take this stuff personally for my clients and for people even they're not my clients, you know they could just reach out for you know a Facebook message and I like want to help them. You know I want to. I don't want you to sit there frustrated and stewing and now the next 10 years you still don't have the result you want. Because there's a way, like there's always a way, and just know that that there's a way. Yeah, I think that's important.

Sarah Krieger: 26:39

I think it's huge, um. So I kind of want to talk about this part of it. We hear a lot of times, you know again, social media. I'm going to say this because it inundates us with all the things Meal timing, how can this meal timing we hear a lot about it and, oh, you have to eat 30 minutes or your protein synthesis is all this. It's not good, you're not going to grow muscles and all these things. Right, how does that work? When it comes, how can meal timing, or more meal structure, benefit the emotional side?

Philip Pape: 27:07

of the eating piece.

Philip Pape: 27:08

Oh, that's actually that's a great question, because it's it's tremendously helpful, especially when people come from a world where they think they have to eat a certain meal timing structure, like intermittent fasting Come on, folks, you know who I'm talking to or they have to eat three meals a day, or six meals a day, or snacks are bad, because snacks can be a great tool.

Philip Pape: 27:27

So it it does come down to the tracking of awareness of your hunger signals and your emotional triggers Kind of what we talked about on my show as well, where sometimes the simplest thing is to reduce that four hour gap in the afternoon where you're not eating and just put a snack in there. It might be Greek yogurt with some berries, right, where you try to check off all the boxes of I've got protein. It tastes good, it takes the hunger away, it fits with my calories, right, it serves all the things and it's not a chore. So, um, when I talk to clients about meal timing, I like to ask about training first. So if you're strength training or you should be strength who's not strength training listening to this?

Sarah Krieger: 28:06

I don't want to talk about that. There's a lot of people.

Philip Pape: 28:10

I know so well. That's where I start, because if you can fuel your training, it sets things off well for everything you're trying to accomplish with your body composition. It also sets yourself up for hunger signals elsewhere in the day, because we know training is linked to cortisol. How you eat is linked to recovery and cortisol and stress. Same thing goes for having like a good protein centric breakfast. You know, there's something to be said for what your grandma said about breakfast being the important meal, most important meal, because there is evidence that eating earlier in the day, again partly linked to cortisol, is going to make you less hungry later in the day.

Philip Pape: 28:49

Interestingly, even though your calories are kind of shifted to the front, doesn't sound intuitive, but it's true. Um, but it's different for everybody, right? So just tracking your hunger and then saying, okay, is it a meal timing thing? Am I eating at seven and then at four? Right, and I'm like starving in between? Well, that's an obvious solution to me when I see that. Or, or are you eating tiny meals and so you're never satisfied and you're eating like six tiny meals? Are you eating inconsistently? I think consistency of both calories and protein? And then, um, meal timing is actually telling your body. Things are safe and predictable, and that actually helps both with your calorie burn and your hunger signals. So yeah, there's a lot more where that came from.

Sarah Krieger: 29:32

Yeah, yeah, no, I think that's important. Again, we touched on this on the other episode. I have a client we talked about this client who eats like 700 calories of snacks, but her lunch and dinner are like 250 calories maybe at times. Right, this would be a case that I say that the snacks need to go. The snacks are happening because we're not eating a proper meal 250 calories in my opinion, for an 1800 plus calorie person, that that's what we're intaking. 250 calories is nothing. And so I've advised this particular client to increase those meals and kind of, there's a couple of snacks that she has in the cottage cheese and fruit. I think that's great, like that's a great snack and that's a great snack, like you said, between that lunch and dinner, where it might be four to five, maybe even six hours who knows, depending on your schedule right, I think that can be really beneficial.

Sarah Krieger: 30:22

I've had another client who I worked with a while ago and she was very successful on my program and she realized that if she could get in about 600 calories at breakfast and it'd be about 40 plus grams of protein, so typically she would have some Kodiak cakes with some additional egg whites and some yogurt and some fruit and things like that. Like she really beefed up her breakfast. She was like that was a game changer for me for the rest of the day. And I think people underestimate the process of try it, see what happens and just go from there Like it's all you're going to do is get more data and more feedback of this went well. This did not go well.

Philip Pape: 31:03

Yeah, I mean, this is where the dichotomy between having the information and knowing what to do with it is is a good one, and again, where coaching can help.

Philip Pape: 31:11

But even just being educated, um, I can think of clients who, in a fat loss phase, for example, where things get a little more tight, right, the tolerances get tight, the numbers get lower, and all that where the macro composition, combined with the timing, is very sensitive for that person, where if, like, exchanging some protein for carbs could be exactly what she needs to have all the energy that, the opposite being, she's constantly feeling like in a low energy state, which then leads to emotional eating, even though the calories are the same.

Philip Pape: 31:43

So, like thinking about that composition and it isn't always protein, right, if you get enough protein, you've got flex now to say, okay, protein, fats, carbs, which one goes up and down and toggles around, and it does come down to experimentation. So if you, if you're in fat loss, you're starting to lose fat at a decent rate, you know, at a normal, consistent rate, and then the hunger starts to ramp up, don't think you have to continue the same eating pattern throughout the fat loss phase. It's always dynamic. You know not just the calorie level, but even the timing and the macro proportions, because, think about it, as the calories come down, with metabolic adaptation, every the protein tends to stay the same and the fats and carbs come down. Well, that starts to hit your energy and your hormones.

Philip Pape: 32:26

And if you have more than enough protein, I might say, just give some of that protein to carbs and do it before you work out and all of a sudden, boom, game changer. I can do another four or five, six weeks in the fat loss phase and feel roughly the same amount of hunger, and then I don't have binges. You know binging episodes. So it is all tied to emotional eating from a tool and data perspective in that way.

Sarah Krieger: 32:47

Yeah, I was going to ask about about the macro side, right, cause we were talking about the meal timing side, but how does the macro specifics play into? And I think that's. I just recently did a whole podcast on calorie calculators with, like the rate, and we have all these formulas and all these calculations and these are wonderful and they're amazing, but like they're not the Holy grail, like you have to also intuitively be able to go these are not my numbers or this is what's happening, and I need to flux this a little bit or raise this, lower that. Um, I think that that's a huge piece to this that a lot of people again, coaching is. This is why coaching is beneficial and, uh, because you already don't know what to do when you're already inundated with with information overload and you don't, like I know I'm supposed to eat better or more protein. How.

Philip Pape: 33:35

Yeah, I agree, I agree. And also when you're, when you're in fat loss, like and I know you probably do this as well you don't just jump right in Like you've got to get everything stable and dialed in and know a little bit about the calories and macros and then understand that macros can affect calories, can affect your metabolism and can affect like it's a big vicious cycle or maybe a virtuous cycle. I'll give you an example right, we know protein burns a lot more calories when you digest it than carbs, and carbs burn more than fat. So if you're, if you double your protein, if you just do this in a spreadsheet, you'll see. But like the same 500 calories with much more protein, you're going to burn more of those calories, meaning your, your actual metabolism is slightly bumped up, even though the calorie intake's the same. And now you can be in the same deficit and eat more, or you can be in a bigger deficit and eat the same, which is a game changer. Now if you again, if you have too much protein, now you're eating into fats and carbs, that could be a problem.

Philip Pape: 34:31

So when you talked about macros, sarah, I think of minimums. I like minimums. So a protein minimum and then fats and carbs also should have a minimum for, but you need to figure that out. And then now, anything above that has a lot of flexibility, and you're good to go. And then the cal. Here's the thing, though. If you are barely hitting your minimums, whatever calorie level that is, you probably don't ever want to go below it, even if you quote, unquote need to to lose weight faster. No, you're going to be miserable forever. You just won't do it.

Philip Pape: 34:58

You're better off eating a little more yeah.

Sarah Krieger: 35:00

Yeah, you won't be. It won't be sustainable, right, you're not going to be able to stick to it. You're going to end up eating your arm off. And then you're like, oh, I did it again. I fell back into the same pattern. And here we are again on the same cycle that we've been on for 25 years, and that's the patience piece.

Philip Pape: 35:14

It's like it's not going to happen as fast as you think. Just assume it won't and that's okay. Weight, in my opinion, don't even have a target. I mean, clients will come to me with the target weight and I slowly chip away. You know, at the mindset of all we can control is how much we eat and the calories and the macros we eat and what we do. Our body's going to do, what it's going to do. We can optimize as much as possible, but given that, now tell me how long it's going to take to get to a certain weight, that's you can't control that part. You can't. You can only control what you're doing here now in the process. So it's empowering and it's liberating when you realize that.

Sarah Krieger: 35:48

Yeah, it is, um. So one of the last questions that I have for you, before we start wrapping it up, is I'm really curious about, um, the our hunger cues, right, I? This is one of the first things. Again, if somebody comes to me and they're like, oh, I never eat breakfast, I'm never hungry, that's not normal. So we need to change that. Like, never being hungry is not normal, guys, ladies, gentlemen who listen, which is not a normal thing. So I'm curious how do we determine hunger cues, fullness cues Like how do I know when to stop eating, how do I know when I'm actually supposed to be hungry? Or what that feels like. And it's relationship to emotional eating, like what does the scientific research say? Versus like how does that play a role in being emotional person?

Philip Pape: 36:32

human being. That's a big question, sarah. That's a loaded one because the the simple. I guess the simple answer is you. You will have to figure out the difference between psychological and real hunger, um, through some level of tracking or awareness. I mean again going back to that um, I have like a journal or it's not, yeah, I guess it's a diary with a scale in it that says, like here's your hunger scale. It's based on some of the validated hunger scales. Sometimes they have the different happy face down to the grumpy face.

Philip Pape: 36:59

Yeah, love that, love that, and it's like okay when you're hungry.

Philip Pape: 37:04

You go to this scale and you see what the threshold is Like. Be honest with yourself, and if it's below the threshold then it's potentially psychological hunger. And there's some like little tricks like go get a glass of water right or take a pause I know we talked about that on my show as well Just to kind of resolve whether it's physical or not. The problem is, people are eating in such a shitty way for so many years that the hormonal milieu, as they call it, are like so screwed up between their thyroid and their cortisol and their gut hormones, semaglutide all of that's involved, like the stuff you hear in the weight loss drugs. You've got those and it's all involved to just make it go haywire.

Philip Pape: 37:42

Honestly, I would go back to lifting weights as like the thing I would shoot to the top of the list for people, as if you wanted to pick one activity that would, quote unquote, solve a lot of issues, probably magically, in pretty short order. It'd be lifting weights, including peri post-menopause women who are worried about hormones and everything else lifting weights. And if you can do that for a while and then see what's left and then start dealing with it, cause it affects your hunger signals as well, I'm not doing too much. Cardio affects your hunger, right. So I would like put the behaviors in place that you know make hunger worse Like sleep deprivation makes hunger way worse and address those. If you're not doing those, come on like that's what we got to do. Do those things and then whatever's left you can potentially address. That's a little bit different than starting from emotions, which could be necessary for certain people as well. It's just my. It's my approach with most of my clients.

Sarah Krieger: 38:35

Okay, no, I mean and I think that's the thing is like it really truly is a complex situation. No-transcript was, say, doing a leg day versus an upper body day, versus. Because I was like man, leg days, you're moving so much more, should be moving so much more weight. That was like I feel like I am, I can't get full in it and I'm eating the same things that I do. You know, I'm a pretty consistent like.

Sarah Krieger: 39:23

I like, I like my stuff. I keep it simple. So I was like I'm eating the same things and I don't know what's happening until I realized, like I'm looking at my data in my logger for all my, all my lifts and I'm like, oh, this man, that's a lot more weight than I lifted yesterday, or, man that's, I'm lifting way more weight than I'm lifting on leg day, than I am lifting on, uh, you know, a press day or a pole day, even depending on if I have deadlifts right. Or even noticing on those kinds of days where I'm doing more of my core lifts that it's like, wow, this, I'm significantly more hungry. So it's like we're afraid to learn about what our body is trying to tell us.

Sarah Krieger: 40:01

It's constantly talking to us and we're like shut up, just shut up. It's true, it's true. I think we're so afraid to listen to it.

Philip Pape: 40:09

Yeah, and there's interesting situations like gaining weight to build muscle, where I have a client who's like gaining, gaining, gaining, and they're like why am I hungry now? I, where you know, I have a client who's like gaining, gaining, gaining, and they're like why am I hungry now? I'm up at 3,500 calories, why am I hungry? That's actually your body telling you something legitimate. Still, it's because you're about to hit a hard gaining plateau.

Philip Pape: 40:26

I've seen it over and over again and if you don't jack up those calories, my man, you are going to stop right now and you need to eat maybe another 300 calories, right.

Philip Pape: 40:41

So it is your body telling you what to do and your example of training. It's interesting because there's a lot of talk about calorie cycling, carb cycling, stuff like that, and people want to overthink this stuff before they got the basics down. Generally, for most people, I found, if you like eat before your workouts, if you eat consistently, if you get enough calories, the hunger signals generally work out for themselves to where you don't have to do all this optimization, manipulation. The caveat is then, once you've done that, your body, your unique body, may have patterns of hunger that you want to listen to beyond, within that, and so I'll see this in client data, where they're always eating more on these two days of the week it might not even be the weekend and I'm like what's going on here? And they're like, I don't know, I'm just hungrier or especially women with their cycle, some women are a lot more sensitive. I've learned that, something I didn't know before I got into coaching the, the there's four phases, not just two, and like how they, how they all interact with.

Sarah Krieger: 41:27

Yeah, it's called crazy and non-crazy, right.

Philip Pape: 41:31

Yeah, Somebody said the different, the different people she are. She is during the month, but yeah, even with that, and then what you got to do is say don't fight it. Like lean into it and say, okay, I'm going to plan ahead so that those days are the ones that have more food and that generally solves the problem. Like, stop fighting it If you're eating mostly whole, nutritious foods. Um, yeah, those are my thoughts on that.

Sarah Krieger: 41:52

Yeah, I think you know, kind of back to the, the hunger cues, kind of like we've like I don't know. I also I'm 41. So I grew up in this. You know, slim fast. I remember seventh grade I told my mom my volleyball coach told me I needed a slim fast before practice. No, no, no, that was just me trying to lose weight, like for real. That's what I did, so, but anyway.

Sarah Krieger: 42:11

So I feel like that we have spent so much time again not listening, suppressing you're not hungry, you don't need to eat. You just ate 27 minutes ago. What's wrong with you? Or you already had breakfast, you don't need anything else. And that's something I, you know my kids drive a lot of, why I do what I do right now, and it's something I'm trying to teach them like we need to listen to what it what our bodies are telling us. They're constantly talking and we have spent so much time suppressing our hunger cues no, you're not hungry, or then we don't listen. It's like, well, I was full about four donuts ago, but I'm just going to keep going, so the donuts aren't a problem tomorrow.

Philip Pape: 42:54

Yeah, sorry, go ahead. No, go go. No, it's a little bit like no. And also, if you think of our evolution, like we are wired to seek out energy, like we're wired for it to survive, and but the environment has changed massively, right? So we are now wired to get obese. We are we're wired to get obese in this environment. So the whole nutritious, whole foods, nutrient density thing is not anything to be taken lightly.

Philip Pape: 43:17

It is extremely important to look at the industry ultra processed foods, everything happening with weight loss, drugs not not to judge any of that, but to look at your own choices and say look, how do I get the flexible approach? Because and we're at why I say that, sarah, and you know this just as well I, I use your hunger signals are highly manipulated in the wrong direction When're eating food that's effectively been discombobulated into its ingredients. A bunch of ingredients that never exist in nature are put together and they're pre-digested for you, just to make it gross for people. Not that I don't love my Oreos like you do, and we can have them. We can have it.

Philip Pape: 43:54

In fact, when you're gaining muscle, you could include more of those in. But yeah, it's just not going to make you full, because it shouldn't. It's already been digested. It's bypassing a bunch of your gut. You know, your gut goes from mouth to your ass, right, and there's steps, and you're skipping a whole bunch of steps and those steps involve hormones and saliva that keep you full. So you're skipping it all, right. No wonder we have a problem with obesity and all that.

Sarah Krieger: 44:18

So yeah, yeah, it's interesting. You're talking about how things are kind of put together, already processed for you. Again, I love jordan. Jordan did a thing about how, like, even the way they stack a snickers bar together like create like specific things and triggers that happen in the brain that make you want more of the thing, because you have the nugget, then you you have the peanuts, which is salty, the chocolatey, the caramel.

Philip Pape: 44:42

I can taste it right now. Yeah, right.

Sarah Krieger: 44:44

So it's like it's wild, but it's a real thing that I think again, people aren't, they're just awareness, awareness, awareness, awareness. So I appreciate all your time.

Philip Pape: 45:10

Is there anything else that, like, we didn't touch on that. You're like, man, I really want these people to hear this. I got to say this and collect a little bit of data. Don't obsess about it. Just if you're not sure, ask Sarah, ask me, and we'll give you a tip on like maybe what's the best thing for you to look at right now and that'll just massively change the game for you versus the other 95% of people who are just wandering through life without a clue. Without a clue.

Sarah Krieger: 45:32

And there are so many. Don't be one of them, don't be one, don't be one, don't be the one, without a clue. So thank you so much for joining me today. I really appreciate it. You guys, make sure you go check out Phillip's podcast Again. I call him the data king data king, whatever you want to call him and he's got some incredible, incredible guests on so many people in this industry that are just so fucking knowledgeable. So I again thank you so much for coming on here. I really appreciate you guys and I'll catch you on the next episode.

Philip Pape: 46:02

All right, and that was my conversation with Sarah Krieger about using data to understand emotional eating patterns, and what I love about these collaborations is they highlight how there's never just one approach to solving nutrition challenges. It's highly individualized, and while I naturally gravitate toward data tracking systems, sarah brings some other aspects about the psychology behind a relationship with food, and I think the most powerful approach honestly just combines the best of both perspectives using data to identify patterns while developing the emotional intelligence to understand what drives those patterns intelligence to understand what drives those patterns. As we discuss, something as simple as tracking your hunger levels or meal timing can reveal some surprises, possibly about when and why emotional eating occurs, and unless you have that, you just don't know. These data points they're not just numbers, by the way. They're sort of windows into the soul, into our behaviors, that can help us create meaningful and sustainable changes. That's what we're going for.

Philip Pape: 47:03

So, whether you personally are naturally more analytical like me or more intuitive about your nutrition, if you combine these, you're going to get a let's call it a complete toolkit to manage emotional eating. So I would say, be open to both. Be open to both because they can help you along the way. All right if you found value in today's episode. All I ask is that you hit follow on Wits and Weights right now to catch every episode when they come out Again Mondays, wednesdays, fridays and then go follow Sarah's podcast Don't Call Me Skinny in your podcast app because I believe she has some insights about nutrition and body image and other things that are really valuable to hear. Until next time, keep using your wits lifting those weights and remember that data and emotions are not opposite forces. They are complementary tools in building a sustainable approach to nutrition. I'll talk to you next time here on the Wits and Weights podcast.

Can You Prioritize Health & Longevity and Still Build a Strong, Lean Body? (Anna Clough) | Ep 316

Get the other part of this conversation on Anna’s podcast “Get Strong and Healthy” where Philip breaks down how to train for aesthetics without sacrificing your health.

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Are you healthy just because you look the part? Strong from the outside but running on empty? Chasing steps, supplements, and skinny without feeling your best?

If you’ve been chasing surface-level goals, it might be time to rethink what true vitality looks like.

Today, Anna Clough, founder of Strong and Healthy and host of the “Get Strong and Healthy” podcast, unpacks what it means to pursue health and longevity. We’re talking about energy, vitality, muscle, metabolism, and how to build a strong body that lasts, without falling into diet culture extremes or burnout.

Don’t miss part two of this special collab—head over to Anna’s podcast to hear Philip break down the aesthetics side of the conversation.

Main Takeaways:

• Looking fit isn’t the same as being healthy

• Strength training is essential for longevity, bone density, and vitality

• Building muscle supports hormones, insulin sensitivity, and metabolism

• Crash diets and restriction backfire on long-term health

• You can look and feel great without sacrificing your well-being

Timestamps:

02:40 – Why you can’t chase every goal at once
05:38 – Biohacking vs. basics: what actually matters
09:31 – Muscle mass, injury prevention, and aging
11:25 – The “bulky” myth and strength as empowerment
14:47 – Bone health, lifting heavy, and real progress
18:33 – Dumbbells, barbells, or machines?
20:40 – Nutrition for health vs. diet culture extremes
23:01 – The danger of crash dieting and rapid weight loss
26:39 – Can you be too lean? What real health feels like
30:09 – Using blood sugar tracking to improve vitality
33:22 – Best ways to improve cardiovascular fitness

Get the other part of this conversation on Anna’s podcast “Get Strong and Healthy” where Philip breaks down how to train for aesthetics without sacrificing your health.

Building a Strong, Lean Body Without Sacrificing Health and Longevity

There’s a huge disconnect today between the image of "fitness" and actual, lasting health. If you’ve ever felt frustrated chasing lower scale numbers, grinding through gym sessions, and eating less and less—only to end up feeling worse—you’re not alone.

Looking fit and being healthy are not the same thing. And if you want to feel strong, energized, and vital for decades to come, it's time to rethink the way you train, eat, and live.

Today, we're digging into how you can absolutely build a strong, lean physique without giving up your health—or your sanity.

Is Your Goal Health or Aesthetics?

First, let's get clear: when we talk about health and longevity, we’re talking about more than just avoiding disease. We're talking about thriving:

• Stable energy and hormones

• Physical strength and resilience

• Strong bones, joints, and cardiovascular health

• A sustainable body composition that supports function and performance

Meanwhile, aesthetics—how you look—can be a valid goal too. But pushing too hard for extreme leanness, too fast or for too long, can backfire on your metabolism, hormones, and long-term well-being.

Good news: you can have both. You just have to prioritize wisely over time and understand that sustainable results don't happen through extremes.

Why Strength Training is Non-Negotiable

If you want real health and longevity, resistance training is the cornerstone.

Strength training isn’t just about looking good—it’s your anti-aging superpower. Here’s what lifting does for you:

• Preserves and builds muscle mass, which improves insulin sensitivity, metabolism, and hormonal health

• Strengthens bones and reduces the risk of fractures and osteoporosis

• Improves joint stability and injury resilience

• Supports better posture, mobility, and balance as you age

In other words, if you're not lifting weights, you're leaving health on the table.

And no—you won't accidentally get "too bulky." Building serious muscle is a slow, intentional process, even when you're doing everything right.

Methods vs. Principles

It’s not about following the latest trendy workout. It’s about applying the right principles:

• Progressive overload (gradually lifting more weight or doing more reps)

• Full range of motion to support joint health

• Heavy enough loads to stimulate bones and muscles

• Consistency over years, not weeks

Whether you use dumbbells, barbells, machines, or cables is less important than actually progressing over time. Free weights offer more bang for your buck in terms of coordination and joint stability, but any well-designed program that challenges you will move you forward.

If you're new or limited by equipment, start with dumbbells and bodyweight work. Machines are fine too if they allow you to push safely and effectively.

Smarter Nutrition for Health and Strength

The typical “diet culture” advice—eat less, cut carbs, lose weight at all costs—is the opposite of what you need for real health.

Instead, focus on fueling your body:

• Prioritize protein with every meal to support muscle maintenance and satiety

• Build your meals around colorful, whole foods for micronutrients and fiber

• Stay well hydrated for digestion, energy, and recovery

• Think fueling, not restricting

If you need fat loss for health reasons, do it intelligently:

• Use reasonable calorie deficits (not starvation)

• Take diet breaks and practice maintenance phases

• Recognize that crash dieting destroys metabolism, increases cravings, and tanks hormones

The goal is never to just get smaller. It’s to improve body composition—more muscle, less fat—while maintaining high energy, good recovery, and hormonal balance.

How Lean is Too Lean?

Yes, you can get "too lean" for health.

For most people, there's a sweet spot where you’re lean enough to feel fit, energetic, and confident without tipping into exhaustion, food obsession, and hormone disruption.

Getting peeled for a bodybuilding show? Probably not healthy long-term.
Walking around lean, strong, and well-fueled? 100% achievable and healthy.

Also remember: the method matters. If you got lean through smarter eating, strength training, and managing stress, you'll feel much better at a lower body fat percentage than if you crashed your way there.

Blood Sugar, Cardiovascular Health, and Longevity Tools

If you want a simple longevity cheat code: build muscle, walk a lot, and eat for blood sugar stability.

A few specific strategies:

• Walking and low-intensity movement keep resting heart rate down and metabolic health high

• A little high-intensity cardio (short intervals) improves cardiovascular fitness without high wear-and-tear

• Managing blood glucose through meal timing, balanced macros, and fiber can enhance how you feel and how you age

You don’t need biohacking gadgets or red light therapy. You need consistency on the fundamentals—and maybe a continuous glucose monitor (CGM) if you’re curious and want extra data, but it’s not required.

The Real Secret (Sustainability)

At the end of the day, none of this matters if it isn't sustainable.

Extreme diets, ultra-aggressive training, or chasing short-term aesthetics usually end badly. Instead:

• Build habits that fit your life (habit stacking is your friend)

• Strength train consistently

• Eat foods you enjoy that fuel you

• Prioritize sleep, stress management, and movement

If you do these things, you will be strong. You will be lean. And you will be healthy—not just for a season, but for decades.

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Transcript

Philip Pape: 0:01

If you've been told that looking fit is the same thing as being healthy, it's time to question that premise. Maybe you've tried cutting calories, hitting the gym harder or chasing a lower number on the scale, only to end up more tired, more frustrated and still wondering why you don't feel better. The truth is real health isn't about those extremes. It's about having energy, balanced hormones, strength that you can use and a body that supports you for the long haul. Today, we're exploring the difference between training to look fit and training to live well. You'll learn why the obsession with aesthetics can sometimes backfire, what sustainable health actually looks like and how you can still build a strong, lean body without burning out or giving up your long-term goals. Welcome to Wits and Weights, the show that helps you build a strong, healthy physique using evidence, engineering and efficiency.

Philip Pape: 1:01

I'm your host, philip Pape, and today I'm bringing you a special collaboration with Anna Clough, founder of Strong and Healthy and host of the Get Strong and Healthy podcast. Yeah, thank you so much for having me on, philip. Yeah, no, it's awesome because I know our missions are pretty well aligned. I know your mission is to help women step out of self-sabotage, get a sustainable, strong, vibrant life, and today we're going to talk about a big piece of that right, which is health and longevity how to train, eat and live for energy, for vitality, however we define it, even when you might have aesthetic goals, and so we're going to get into that in a second.

Philip Pape: 1:37

But I do want the listener to know that we've actually covered this from two topics, two angles. The other angle is the aesthetic side, and I want you guys to check out Anna's podcast where she's interviewing me about that. It's Get Strong and Healthy. Look it up in your podcast app or click the link in your show notes and again you get two halves of the same conversation. So it's two for the price of one right, even though it's free. So go check out Get Strong and Healthy, but right now let's dive into health and longevity. Anna, thank you so much for coming on the show.

Anna Clough: 2:07

Yeah, thank you again, and I'm excited to dive into this topic today for our listeners, and I thought the best way to kind of kick this off is let's define what is health and longevity versus aesthetics. And to me, I feel like this is very, you know, oh, it's so obvious type of thing. But we have to remember we've been in the industry for, you know, however, many years, and not everyone is knows what maybe aesthetics means and so kind of. What we're talking about is training and eating in terms of how we want to feel, how healthy we want to be in the long term of life, versus there's kind of another goal we can have which is how can we look the best that we can possibly look right now, type of thing. And there's a ton of overlap within both of these of how we get to these goals, but they are very different and there are different nuances within how we can go about reaching the optimal place of these goals, and so that's what we're going to be talking about today, and it's also something where, when I'm working with a client, when someone comes to me and they're like I want to, I want to optimize my health, but you know, I want to get.

Anna Clough: 3:24

You know, say shredded, for lack of a better word coming to my mind and they have all these goals at once. It's something where you kind of have to have that conversation of love that I'm the same way. I want it all, but especially in a short-term sense, we do kind of have to have the maybe like phases of prioritizing one over the other. If we're going to try and go for maximum aesthetics, there's going to be a little bit of sacrifice within your health, and if we're trying to go for optimizing our health, there probably is going to be a little bit of sacrifice when it comes to our aesthetic goals. And so that's a really good question for you listeners to sort of reflect on right now is what is most important to me right now and where are you at with that? There's no right or wrong, there's just different considerations to both, and I think both of our episodes are gonna be really, really beneficial to just help give you some clarity on how to reach these goals.

Philip Pape: 4:24

So I like that. You added the time component, right, Because that is so critical. When we think of a goal, some people get overwhelmed, right? They're thinking well, by the time I die, when I'm 100 or whatever age, like I want to live a long, healthy life, right, Don't we all? And I want to look good, Don't we all? And what you said is well, there's a time component, there's a phase or periodization component to it and you have to prioritize. At the end of the day, would you say, can you have it all long-term?

Anna Clough: 4:50

I would say, yes, you can. I think where a lot of the issue goes is especially when we're so excited about a fitness journey or a health journey we're getting into this world. It's very exciting when we start to see progress, see results, and then we kind of want to have it all at once. I think that's where we need to really set expectations of okay, like what's our focus right now, but in the longterm, maybe we do a ton of work on your health, we maybe overcome some internal issues that we might've had going on, we get you to a really amazing place. And then we can get you to a really amazing place aesthetically, where you feel amazing, but maybe talking in the sense of like maximum aesthetics, in terms of like bodybuilding I don't know Olympia type level, probably not we can't really have it all there but I would say that for most people who are general population, they want to look really good, they want to feel really good you can absolutely have it all, especially in the long term. Okay.

Philip Pape: 5:47

So maybe we should scope what we mean by health and longevity specifically, because there's a lot of misnomer or misunderstanding, I think, around both. Longevity is definitely a trigger word and a buzzword in the marketing industry. We were joking about the 200 supplement for longevity and people that talk about how they're smashing, you know, age related, uh, their chronological health or whatever. You know this 80 year old who's really like he's 40, you know all this. I'll call it nonsense in the industry, let's be honest. But it's the idea that you need all of these protocols and all this biohacking and the 1% solutions, the red light therapy. Is that what we're talking about or is it something else? Leading question, I know.

Anna Clough: 6:27

Yeah, definitely not what we're talking about. There's a lot of extremes within just you know the craziness of just like why you said all the supplements, all the crazy biohacking things which you know a lot of might have some merit to it. A lot of it might not, and even if things do have merit to it, it kind of comes down to what's really worth it in terms of you know, a time investment or energy investment, when it's maybe a marginal return that we're getting, and so definitely being skeptical of just the extremes on with anything really. But yeah, when it comes to just being healthy, having long-term health, it's going to really come back to you know, as unsexy as it is, the, the foundations and the basics of you know, strength, training of nutrition, of all right let's, let's talk about all these things and we'll talk about how we can, you know, optimize those things.

Anna Clough: 7:23

And then maybe the fun, fun biohacking tool here or there, the things that you feel make a great impact for you, those can be absolutely amazing, but as kind of like a cherry on top type of thing.

Philip Pape: 7:35

Okay, perfect. So then let's dive into specifics, starting with training, because again, there's confusion as to how to train, and also what I've observed you probably have as well is like the idea of the principles of training supported by the evidence versus all the different methods of training, right, like how many days per week and how do you train and what equipment and all that. Is there a difference between how you train for longevity versus aesthetics, and are those differences more of the methods, or are there principles that actually differ? What are your thoughts?

Anna Clough: 8:05

Yeah, great question. I think that overall, when it comes to longevity, when it comes to just like anti-aging strength training and resistance training I mean they're same thing, but training for strength versus training for gaining muscle, both are going to be absolutely incredible and I would say that you probably want to do a mix of both. And then, when it comes to you know you're going to talk more about aesthetics, but I would say it's probably the same kind of thing if we want to have those phases of you know all things, and so that's sort of what I would say there. But overall, strength training is honestly your like anti-aging superpower. So, when it comes to health, when it comes to living a long, healthy life of vitality, this is definitely what you want to be having as your foundation of how you train.

Philip Pape: 8:59

Yeah, and let's pull on that right. So someone says, well, do I really need to resist? You know preaching to the choir here, so I know we both know the answer. But someone says, do I really need to strength train? Because I heard longevity was more about, like you know, you want to have healthy joints and mobility. You don't want to get injured. So what about the yoga? And let's not even get into cardio, because that's a whole separate thing, but just some of the mental health practices and mindfulness stuff. Why is it? And when walking, why is that not enough?

Anna Clough: 9:28

Yeah, I have a lot of yogis who come to me and it's always really fun when you know all they know is yoga and calm and stretching. And then I introduced them to strength training resistance training it's it's a whole nother world. That is extremely necessary and you want to have just that combination. A lot of the times is going to be best, because if you're super into yoga, you might cause yourself some issues in terms of injury, in terms of just not strengthening your body in the way that it needs to, and it's unfortunately something I see a lot. And so we really want to be strong in terms of for, you know, our joints, for our just muscle, especially if we're thinking long, long term preventing falling, preventing, you know, injuries as we age.

Anna Clough: 10:21

There's some people that think, oh, I don't want to lift weights, you know I'm going to injure myself. It's like, no, you actually that's the total flip. You want to get strong, lift weights safely, because that's what's going to prevent injury in the longterm. And also after about age 30, the science is very clear that we start to naturally lose muscle mass every year if we're not actively working to maintain it, and so you know that is going to affect everything from your posture to your mobility, to your metabolism, to your hormones, metabolism to your hormones, and so there's really nothing more important or maybe that's an extreme way of saying it, but it's extremely important to really make sure that you are resistance training, you are actively working to build muscle, get stronger and, overall, just pursuing this as a part of your lifestyle.

Philip Pape: 11:19

We need more people to hear this, anna. That's why I don't mind talking about it every single episode till this podcast dies. What you just said is the flip of what people think. Sometimes, oh, I'm going to get injured or I have back pain or knee pain and so I don't want to lift weights, and it's like no, you start deadlifting. Watch that back pain go away if you do it the right way. And your phrase extremely necessary. I like that because it really is a non-negotiable. For all that, and then the falling and the aging and the frailty it affects a lot of us. I don't know about you. I have in-laws and grandparents and parents and all that that I see just decline fast when they get old because of the lack of muscle. It's the lack of function, but also lack of muscle. So, since you brought that up, why is muscle mass so critical beyond the physical you mentioned you hinted at, like metabolism. I know there's things like insulin sensitivity and whatnot, but like what are the big hitters there for health and longevity?

Anna Clough: 12:15

Yeah, so the more muscle mass you have, the more efficient your body is at handling blood sugar. So when you eat, you know, carbs, your body's going to know how to handle those carbs. It's going to have the muscle mass to be able to, you know, shuttle those that glucose into your muscles and be able to utilize that for energy, versus just kind of like letting it sit in your bloodstream, and so it's going to be better at handling blood sugar, insulin and also, just overall, it's going to help with inflammation, you know, preventing too much inflammation in the long run, and so all of those things are extremely important when it comes to our health, and so muscle mass is really going to be the core piece to just make all of that much better, do you?

Philip Pape: 13:04

still get the pushback that I don't want to be too muscular, or like it seems like it's just about vanity, things like that. Obviously it's the bulky thing with women, but what do you get on that front?

Anna Clough: 13:15

Oh yeah, totally. I hear that here and there. I feel like society is getting a little bit better at just, you know, overcoming that misinformation. But I always like to just tell people upfront, like you, don't have to worry about gaining too much muscle too quickly. A lot of us have been trying to do that, for you know, I tell people I've been trying to do that for 10 years and it hasn't worked. I'm not there yet. You know, I I don't um, it's not very easy to get bulky. It's very, very intentional, and you're not going to wake up one day and be like oh my God, I'm Arnold Schwarzenegger, what do I do? So you'll be okay.

Philip Pape: 13:53

I joke about it all the time because I'm like guys, I'm trying to chase physicals. I didn't get started until I was like 40, but it works. But it takes a lot of work, you know, in a good way, cause it's a process. It's a process, so you didn't mention injury risk. The other objection that I hear from folks that we kind of alluded to is like I want to have more mobility, flexibility or, um, maybe I don't want to lift heavy because I think that can be a problem and there are some risks versus benefits of heavier versus lighter training. Like, what are your thoughts on somebody who's just focused on longevity? They're like I don't care how I look at all, I just want the best thing for me, efficiently, for my time.

Anna Clough: 14:30

Oh yeah, like, in terms of you know what kind of, what kind of training routine to implement? Yeah, yeah, like do you like like.

Philip Pape: 14:37

Do you like lifting heavy Like I do, but not everybody says you have to? Do you like lifting heavy Like I do, but not everybody says you have to? And the evidence supports? There's a lot of flexibility right In terms of both strength and hypertrophy. So is there one that you lean toward with like newer clients who are, say, 40s, 50s?

Anna Clough: 14:51

Yeah, yeah, great question. I would really, at the start, lean towards strength. I really love building a foundation of strength with clients. I really love building a foundation of strength with clients. I think that for one, it's a little bit more rewarding at the start to really show clients whoa, like I'm lifting objectively this much more than I was six weeks ago and I'm blown away and showing. You know, especially I work with women most of the time but showing women, showing people how strong they can get and how we can like sort of unlock, that is really amazing from a psychology lens versus you know, we can, we can build a good bit of muscle.

Anna Clough: 15:37

But especially when I'm working with high achieving women, we tend to be a little bit critical on ourselves and I noticed that women will be like, oh yeah, I don't know, maybe it's there, I don't know, maybe it's not, and they'll kind of like downplay when we are making progress or maybe it's just a little bit harder to tell. So that's why I would say from one lens, why I really love strength training, but also thinking about when we are like lifting heavy and we're, we're really pushing, that's going to be extremely beneficial for also our bones. That was one thing that I meant to mention previously is our bone health is also really important to think about, and it's something that I don't think a lot of people do think about. And so knowing that resistance training, lifting heavy this is going to prevent our bones from degrading.

Anna Clough: 16:32

And I have a woman that I met a few weeks ago. She's in her early forties and the doctor told her she has osteopenia and she, she, uh. I asked her first question. I asked her do you resistance train? She said no, I don't work out. I hate. I hate working out.

Philip Pape: 16:53

Of course, I hate working out.

Anna Clough: 16:55

And I was like oh yeah, me too I don't like working out. Um, I try to, like you know, really make sure I can relate with that sort of stuff, but just it goes to show the importance of lifting, the importance of training for our bones, especially in the long term. So that's going to be a huge thing there piece of it.

Philip Pape: 17:23

I mean I personally believe, like when you're older and you've never lifted before, like that probably is the most efficient and best use of your time anyway because of all these benefits. Plus you're going to build muscle anyways from doing it. The idea of not liking working out, I mean you just mentioned what potentially is the fix for that is, when you make progress and you get that reward of feeling stronger, more functional, you're going to start liking working out more. Maybe it's still hard, right, maybe it's still hard, but there's just a deep satisfaction from that. That you don't get from YouTube workouts where you're just sweating with 10 pound dumbbells and there's like no progress, right, just to put a little imagery on that that's another thing to note is actually specifically this woman too.

Anna Clough: 18:03

She's like I think I'm going to start with some doing some YouTube workouts again and kind of had to come in with like want to make sure that that's actually enough, right, because a lot of the times the workout videos or just you know something like that where you're just exercising, maybe like a class where you're lifting the same weights every week, like that's really maybe not going to so much do it for you, and it's going to be something where we want to make sure we are resistance training properly, progressing you week after week, that we're really challenging your body in the way that we need to challenge it, and so that's just.

Anna Clough: 18:37

Something else to note is that you know, not all methods are created equal. However, we love any form of exercise. I'm not saying not trying to discourage anyone from exercising, but making sure that if longevity is really important to you, if aesthetics are, you know, of importance to you, it's going to be really important that you maybe skip the the um, the YouTube workout and you get some real good programming in your life. I can see why you're a great coach, anna. Right YouTube workout and you get some real good programming in your life.

Philip Pape: 19:03

I can see why you're a great coach and all right, cause you have that level of empathy and like I'm going to meet you where you are. But let's use some logic, some your goals that you have and shift you toward. Hey, if you want to get from A to B, this is the most effective tool for the job real quick. Do you have a preference for like barbell training versus machines, cables and some blend of free weights?

Anna Clough: 19:23

Yeah. So personally, I prefer really focusing on more dumbbell work, especially when someone's a bit newer, and just really being able to build some stability, being able to learn different movements before we can get into using a barbell, which is going to be starting at a little bit heavier weight, and so that's typically really starting with dumbbell work. However, if a client is dealing with maybe some sort of pain or some sort of specific issue, sometimes it might make more sense to really lean into machines for a bit and just utilizing a little bit more stability slash. Maybe I'm working with an older client who you know, maybe they're not able to see me in person and I'm maybe writing workouts for them. That's that's a time where I might utilize machines more so.

Philip Pape: 20:15

So it's a very I'm kind of all over the place with that answer, but no, that's good Cause, you're right, a lot of it can work, and you've got to meet them where they are. And if a client doesn't even have access to X or Y, what you know it's either do it or don't do it, then that's, that's not a good. That binary is not a good option, right? You want them to do something that gets them there.

Anna Clough: 20:35

Yeah, and I love like a little bit more of just a functional training style where you know a lot of the people that I'm working with they don't have you know five plus days in the week where they're able to get their mix of you know lack of stability training you know through like dumbbell work and things like that and then also doing machines. It's something where it's like what's going to be the most bang for our buck type of thing, and so I think that I would definitely say leaning towards free weights um, barbell, slash dumbbell is going to be where I'd want most people to be.

Philip Pape: 21:07

Yeah, it makes total sense. So then then let's segue into nutrition, cause that's the other big piece, and we could spend a lot of time talking about that and longevity and health. Let's see, do we start with the fueling that aligns with your training and how that can also support health, like I'm not sure. Or do we start with, like, restrictive dieting versus flexible dieting? You take it away, like, what makes the most sense here when we're thinking health?

Anna Clough: 21:30

Yeah, yeah, there's so many angles to come at this from. I totally agree. I'm like, where do we start? But what I would say first off is, when it comes to vitality, when it comes to feeling really good now and in the long term, it's really about less of restriction and eating less, and more about eating smarter, such as having protein with every meal, having you know colorful whole foods in your diet, making sure you're staying hydrated to really you know colorful whole foods in your diet, making sure you're staying hydrated to really you know support your hormones, your energy and your recovery, and just also like thinking of eating to fuel, right.

Anna Clough: 22:13

I see so often people are maybe just really under eating during the day or even around their training and then maybe are leading to so many cravings or just overeating later and in the long run, we're gaining weight due to that.

Anna Clough: 22:27

And so, just overall, trying to find a way to eat that's gonna support your body during the day, that's going to be balanced, that's going to not be such a maybe extreme of okay, we're yo-yo dieting, we're crash dieting, really hard, putting all that stress on your body, and then we're rebounding right, like we see a lot of people do, and so if the goal is fat loss, making sure that you're approaching it the right way, we're not eating way too little and that's going to just put you in a worse spot long termterm. I know that that's how I started my journey of just eating way too little. I was an athlete at the time and I think I set myself at 1500 calories and no wonder I had like binge eating tendencies coming out from that and that swung me in the other way, leading me to even worse health, and so we really want to sort of avoid those extremes with things and make sure that we're just taking the right approaches to nutrition to make sure that we're not affecting our health.

Philip Pape: 23:29

Yeah, I can get on board with that. I mean smarter and not being extreme. It's antithesis to how everything's marketed with the weight loss industry, where people want results now but the result now. Maybe tell the listener why. Is going after like rapid weight loss or weight loss at all costs or not a smart way to weight loss not good for your health and longevity?

Anna Clough: 23:51

Yeah, oh, that's a great question, cause, again, there's so many, so many components to that. I think that, first, from a just a physiological stance, your body's going to really fight you in terms of that, when you crash, diet so quickly, you lose a ton of weight. Your body's going to be under so much stress and, at the end of the day, your body doesn't want to change like that, it wants to stay the same, it wants to feel safe, it doesn't want to have all this. You know this stressor. And so if you put that big stress on your body, you, you know, change really, really quick. You're going to have your hunger cues really fighting you. You're going to have your probably like food, noise and cravings really starting to fight you there.

Anna Clough: 24:43

And then, overall, like your hormones might, you know, tank your metabolism, those different things that you know, just from that stress, your body's like I don't care about producing optimal hormones right now. I'm trying to survive with whatever this person's doing. I don't know why I'm not getting fuel. I'm trying to survive with whatever this person's doing. I don't know why I'm not getting fuel. I'm going to start, you know, kind of shutting down and conserving whatever energy I can.

Anna Clough: 25:05

So that's how you can kind of think about, like, what your body's doing and why it's so important to come at things from a, you know, periodized sort of long-term lens of. Maybe you have a big goal of losing a lot of weight. Amazing, maybe, instead of going really hard, really fast, doing it all at once, we make sure to add in some diet breaks in there, to add in you know, a proper reverse, add in some just maintenance days and making sure that we can give your body that those feelings of safety, first and foremost, just helping boost your metabolism. And so, um, yeah, definitely not crash dieting, not going on those crazy fad diets, is going to be really important to overall, just, uh, maintaining good health.

Philip Pape: 25:53

Yeah, I think you tied a couple of concepts there really well. First, I think, is the idea that, yes, we many people need to drop some excess body fat from a health perspective, but the way that they do it is extremely important, and you're talking about being reasonable, taking the right glide path or the rate of loss, and not just because it avoids, like you said, the metabolic effects, but it does help along the way with getting it done successfully, like not having the hunger and the food noise and the cravings which is tied to sleep and recovery and stress. It's so interconnected. And you just mentioned safety, which is like the fifth time in the last month I've had a guest on where we got into that and I don't know if I'm hearing it more or just like the word is getting around, cause I'm sure you've talked about it a long time. I'm just saying I noticed, anna, the more more discussion around that and like homeostasis, safety, giving your body some love, let's say, someone figures that out, they work, they hire you and figure it out or they listen to the podcast, and where do they want to end up?

Philip Pape: 26:55

What I mean by that is, yes, we have periodization, but one of the confusing aspects people say is well, I kind of want to end up lean right and I want to look good and feel good and also live a long life, but can you get too lean or it's not healthy. And also, what am I trying to say here, ed? I'm trying to say here's my experience. When I get too lean and it's difficult to do that it's not a place I want to necessarily sustain. I actually want to like come back up a little. That makes sense, like I want to have a little bit of fat on my body and kind of be in that walking lean. Like what are your thoughts on that whole concept of what's the long game here for health?

Anna Clough: 27:29

Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

Lisa: 27:33

Hi, my name is Lisa and I'd like to give a big shout out to my nutrition coach, Philip Pate. With his coaching, I have lost 17 pounds. He helped me identify the reason that I wanted to lose weight, and it's very simple Longevity. I want to be healthy, active and independent until the day I die. He introduced me to this wonderful little app called Macro Factor. I got that part of my nutrition figured out. Along with that is the movement part of nutrition. There's a plan to it and he really helped me with that. The other thing he helped me with was knowing that I need to get a lot of steps in. So the more steps you have, the higher your expenditure is and the easier it is to lose weight. When it's presented to you like he presents it, it makes even more sense. And the other thing that he had was a hunker guide and that really helped me. So thank you, Philip.

Anna Clough: 28:21

There's, I think, a lot of what we're seeing online, especially nowadays. There's a lot of glamorization just about being ultra shredded and 10 pack yeah.

Anna Clough: 28:31

Yeah, and just as a good reminder for everyone, it's something we always have to remind ourselves is just because someone is really really lean does not mean that they are thriving or they're really healthy. And I've been this myself. I've seen women do this a lot, where you know they're under eating, they're overtraining, they're constantly fatigued and they look really fit on the outside. But just remembering that true health is internal. It's how you're sleeping, it's how your digestion is working, if your cycle is regular, if you have energy, if you feel strong, if you feel grounded, all that sort of stuff, and so you can absolutely get lean and be healthy. But just remembering that it doesn't always, they don't always equal each other, but I would say that, especially for women, but also for men, being totally peeled, meaning like bodybuilding stage ready, that's not going to be a healthy place to be for anyone. And so, yeah, just making sure you do have a healthy amount of body fat, we're not too, too lean. But also just remembering that, like I'll give a personal example I was at this weight that I am now a few years ago and I felt extremely hungry, I felt cold all the time. I felt so many cravings and this hyper fixation about food. It felt very unhealthy for me and so, you know, I gained weight, was able to, you know, get past some of those issues and I just thought to myself I guess I'm just not meant to be that lean. But recently I've been able to get this lean and not have those issues that I did before because of the methods that I've been taking. And so that's a little caveat just to like think about is try and not have that like fixed mindset about. Oh, just cause I felt this way when I was lean means I have to feel that way next time, because just where your body's at hormonally, where your body's at in all the ways, the methods that you take to get there, are going to matter a ton. And what I've done now is being able to really work on my blood sugar regulation, which, oh my gosh, if you guys have it, that's a nice like um, you know a little bit more in like the biohacker world type in my eyes, but it's just a really amazing health tool to be able to track your blood sugars. And how you can do that is take a fasted blood sugar reading with a little uh blood sugar reader device first thing in the morning and you can see what your fasted blood sugars are. And then also, you want to get some readings post-prandial, so two hours or so after you eat actually after your last bite of food set a two hour timer, take your blood sugar and see where it's coming to, for you know people who are really stressed. You know you're training really hard. Like me, I've been an athlete for a long time and I, you know, put pressure on myself in terms of business and all that you know, fun stuff. Um, that really led me to just having dysregulated blood sugar, and I think probably for a while, and I didn't even know it, and that was a really big key for me to say, all right, I need to heal this, and that's what's gotten rid of so many cravings for me, helped me just come to a much better place, and so that's a really nice tool to use. If you'd be interested in trying that out, I highly recommend.

Anna Clough: 32:20

I actually just got a CGM continuous glucose monitor to try out. I hear a lot of conflicting things about the accuracy. However, I'm kind of looking at it as okay. Even if it's not accurate. You're going to be able to see the differences and see. You know the changes. So you know, my coach told me we're going to add five to 10 points to each reading. Just, you know that's what we typically do. So that's what. That's what I'm currently doing and that's just been a big catalyst for my journey, but I'm so off track from what the question is.

Philip Pape: 33:00

And we don't need to pick it back up. It's okay Just to pull on that thread a bit. I do love the idea of okay, if the advice is to eat more fiber and balance your macros and balance meals, because the result is it helps with your blood sugar, just one way to do it. It's nice to have data and trends that kind of correlate. Okay, this is what happens when I do this. Not get freaked out because I eat potatoes and my blood sugar spiked, right.

Philip Pape: 33:22

So, um, in fact, holly Baxter was on the show, right, ifpp bikini pro. She's awesome, and she talked about using the calories burned from your wearable and exercise, which originally I was like, oh no, what's she going to say? She's like using the trend of that over time and how it changes to see how active you are and how much volume you may have. I'm like, oh, that's cool. Like the number is not accurate at all, but like, for you, the trend over time could tell you something, so it's the right way. So, in the interest of time cause I know we're trying to keep these two episodes like reasonable Can I do like three rapid fire questions for you? Yeah, go off, all right. So the first one, which is kind of a big side topic, but what's the best way to improve cardiovascular health and markers, like you know, resting heart rate.

Anna Clough: 34:02

Ooh, yeah. So walk, do some sort of cardio that you enjoy If that is biking, that is some hiking, if that is, you know whatever that might be for you and then potentially some interval type training, some high intensity type training. Even just a few minutes per week is an amazing way to improve your cardiovascular fitness Cool, Just don't overdo the cardio right. Yeah, don't overdo it. It's a great compliment to strength as being your base.

Philip Pape: 34:37

How do you lower cholesterol? So people are that's, that's a marker of health Everybody and their doctor knows to look at. How do you do that? Lower your lipids, your LDL?

Anna Clough: 34:45

Yeah, great question. So, first off, nutrition is going to be huge Overall. Just, I mean, improving all of these different factors is going to lead to that, like such a holistic approach is going to be really what's going to help with that.

Philip Pape: 35:02

And what is your favorite habit framework.

Anna Clough: 35:05

Habit framework who, like as in building, building habits there's so many ways to approach it, yeah absolutely so. My where my brain went immediately was habit stacking love, habit stacking love. Taking a habit that you already do every single day and pairing that with something you're trying to build. That is going to make it stick. That's going to make it so much easier. So, if you're trying to implement something, find something you already do and just do both same time.

Philip Pape: 35:35

Love it, love habit stacking. That's a great tip for folks, just if they say I don't have time for that, no, you're doing something else that you can stack, all right. So, kind of to recap, it sounds like if you do the right things for your body in terms of taking a reasonable approach, strength training, eating nutritious foods and protein, keeping the stress management there, getting enough sleep guess what? All the things we you and I talk about all the time it's going to give you health and longevity and it's probably gonna make you look good too. So I know, if you love today's conversation, um, again, go check out Anna's show get strong and healthy. What a simple, easy to remember name for a podcast where we're going to talk about the aesthetic side of this, and you're going to hear some overlap, for sure, but there's always little differences. Is there any last thing about health and longevity that you really wanted to cover that we didn't get to?

Anna Clough: 36:23

Yeah, I think really just making sure you're coming at your journey from thinking about building a sustainable lifestyle. At the end of the day, we can take some fun you know short-term strategies but we also need to make sure that we are showing up for these different values we have of taking care of ourselves, eating well, working out, training, whatever in the long run and making sure that you can just keep this up so that you can be strong and healthy today and for the longevity.

Philip Pape: 36:57

Sustainability, the underlying glue that binds all of this. Ask yourself if what you're doing is, if it isn't, something might be able to change and do everything Anna's suggesting. It doesn't take a lot to incorporate those and get a massive result for your effort. So thank you again, anna, for doing this. Again, I'm excited for the collaboration. Glad we got to talk through at least the basics. It's a big topic, I know. Go find Anna's podcast. Get Strong and Healthy. Use the link in the show notes. And, anna, thank you for coming on.

Anna Clough: 37:26

Yeah, thanks so much for having me.

Should You Lose Fat, Build Muscle, or Maintain? (Nutrition & Training Audit) | Ep 315

Book your FREE 15-minute Rapid Nutrition Assessment (not a sales pitch) and have me personally audit your training and nutrition approach or go to witsandweights.com and click "Free Nutrition Audit"

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Feeling stuck between competing fitness goals? Unsure whether to focus on fat loss, muscle building, or maintenance?

In this episode, I share a real live recording of a 15-minute Rapid Nutrition Assessment with Sam, who wasn't sure which direction to take her fitness journey next despite already establishing solid nutrition and training habits.

Sam has made impressive progress with her nutrition and training habits but struggles with competing goals: wanting to build muscle and improve bone density while maintaining the lean physique she worked hard to achieve. 

Having previously reached 14% body fat, she loved how she looked and felt, but found this difficult to maintain long-term. Now at 18%, she's hesitant about entering a building phase that might push her away from her aesthetic comfort zone.

You'll discover why the choice between building muscle and staying lean doesn't have to be binary, and how finding the right balance can transform both your physique and long-term health.

Main Takeaways:

• Why "aggressive maintenance" might be the perfect approach for building muscle without sacrificing leanness

• How to increase training intensity to improve bone density and muscle growth

• The importance of strength-focused training versus hypertrophy for overall health outcomes

• Why adding just 50-100 calories can make a significant difference in your body's ability to build muscle

Timestamps:

0:01 - Why you might be torn between competing fitness goals 
4:11 - Bone density, muscle building, and training intensity 
12:04 - Choosing between maintenance, fat loss, or muscle gain
15:44 - Why small calorie increases help with building muscle
19:44 - What is true maintenance?
21:51 - Improving bone density 

The Right Time to Cut, Build, or Maintain—and How to Know for Sure

You’ve cleaned up your nutrition. You’re training consistently. You’ve even dialed in recovery and started tracking data. But you’re still asking the one question that seems to haunt every lifter at some point:

What should I do next—lose fat, build muscle, or maintain?

This episode of Wits & Weights gives you a front-row seat to a real 15-minute coaching call that answers that exact question. Sam, a listener with solid habits and experience, wants to know what phase to pursue after already hitting 14% body fat, feeling confident, and then regaining a few pounds. The result? A powerful, nuanced strategy that might help you finally get clear on your own path.

Let’s break it down.

Why the “Next Phase” Dilemma Is So Common

Here’s the truth: you can always make a case for fat loss, maintenance, or building muscle.

• You might want more muscle mass and strength

• You might want to stay leaner and feel comfortable in your clothes

• You might just want to do something new to break the monotony

But the best decision starts with clarity. And that comes from:

• Knowing your long-term why (health? confidence? strength?)

• Understanding your set point and current biofeedback

• Accepting the trade-offs that come with any goal

In Sam’s case, she’s already experienced what 14% body fat feels like. It was empowering. But it also took work to maintain—and she wasn’t sure she wanted to live there year-round. That’s the kind of honest reflection that needs to happen before you jump into your next phase.

What Is “Aggressive Maintenance”—and Why It Works

One of the core ideas from this conversation is something I call aggressive maintenance—which is basically a lean gain or body recomp approach with the smallest caloric surplus possible.

• You’re training with intensity and progressive overload

• You’re tracking data like body weight, energy, and strength

• You’re increasing calories slightly—maybe 50–100 kcal—to provide just enough energy for growth

• You’re aiming for a slow drift upward in weight over several months (think 0.15% of bodyweight per week)

This is a sweet spot for people who:

• Are already lean or metabolically healthy

• Don’t want to do a full bulk but want to gain some muscle

• Prefer to avoid fat gain and are patient enough to play the long game

It’s also a great way to develop nutritional skills like managing food intake with more flexibility and learning how to eat for performance.

Why Training Intensity Matters More Than You Think

Sam mentioned she’d been active for years, but only recently started pushing intensity—moving from an RPE of 4 to more like 6 or 7. To truly grow muscle and build bone density (her goal after a recent DEXA scan), you have to train at a higher intensity.

That means:

• Moving toward RPE 8–9 on your main lifts

• Choosing weights that make you doubt whether you can finish the set

• Progressing your strength, not just doing more reps

This is where a structured strength program comes in. You don’t need to kill yourself with volume or chase soreness. You need consistent progressive overload with big compound lifts (squat, press, deadlift, pull). And you need to track it.

What About the Scale and Body Fat?

If you’ve ever hesitated to eat more because of the scale creeping up—even if you know you should be building—you’re not alone.

But as I told Sam, maintenance is a range, not a single weight. A swing of 2–3 pounds in either direction is totally normal. The goal during aggressive maintenance is to see a very slight upward drift over time, especially if strength is improving.

You’ll also want to measure other data points:

• Strength progress

• Waist and other measurements

• Recovery markers (sleep, energy, HRV)

• Subjective feelings of motivation and drive

The real transformation happens before it’s obvious in the mirror.

Why the Right Program Is Everything

Sam is following a functional bodybuilding program, which is great for movement quality and hypertrophy—but maybe not ideal for prioritizing strength and bone density. I suggested a hybrid or powerbuilding approach:

• Start sessions with a main lift (squat, bench, deadlift, press) in the 4–6 rep range

• Follow up with 1–2 variations or developmental lifts

• Finish with isolation work or accessory volume in the 8–15 rep range

This still builds muscle. But it prioritizes strength, which in turn supports everything else—including aesthetics.

If your bones and joints matter to you—and they should—getting stronger is non-negotiable.

Maintenance Isn’t Stagnation

Choosing not to cut or bulk doesn't mean you're spinning your wheels. In fact, maintenance done right is often the most strategic thing you can do:

• It teaches you to train hard without the distractions of dieting

• It improves your relationship with food and your body

• It sets the stage for better results in your next fat loss or building phase

And when you're ready, a small caloric increase (50–100 kcal) and a focus on performance can push you into a lean gain without sacrificing confidence, clothes that fit, or summer plans.

The key takeaway?

You don’t have to diet or bulk to make progress. You just need a goal, a strategy, and consistency.

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Then hit “Follow” and you’re good to go!

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Transcript

Philip Pape: 0:01

What should you do next? Build muscle, maintain your current physique or cut body fat? Today's episode will give you clarity, because you're going to hear a real-time rapid nutrition assessment call with someone who's made really impressive progress but now faces that familiar quandary what is my next phase? We are going to talk about an approach that honors both your aesthetic goals and long-term health, especially bone density. Approach that honors both your aesthetic goals and long-term health, especially bone density. You'll discover why intensity in the gym might matter more than calories, how to break through training plateaus without compromising results and deal with what feels like competing fitness goals so that you can move forward with confidence.

Philip Pape: 0:52

Welcome to Wits and Weights, the show that helps you build a strong, healthy physique using evidence, engineering and efficiency. I'm your host, philip Ape, and today we are featuring another recording from a rapid nutrition assessment call with someone who is weighing different options for their next fitness phase. Now, these are just 15-minute calls that I offer for free to help people identify their key roadblocks, create a plan moving forward. It's not a sales pitch. You can use the link in the show notes anytime if you want to schedule one with me, and today's conversation with Sam perfectly captures the struggle that many of us face wanting to build muscle for health and strength while maintaining a lean physique that we worked hard to achieve. And what makes this really valuable, I think, is that, sam, she has already established some solid nutrition and training habits, yet she still needs guidance on an optimal path forward. We always need support and guidance at these forks in the road, no matter how much knowledge we have, no matter how much we've been there before. I have coaches, I have systems that help me as well, and I feel like these calls will give you a way to do that. So, whether you're currently in a similar position as Sam or you know, you'll be there one day. I think the insights from today's conversation are still going to help you navigate what to do next in your fitness journey with a bit more clarity.

Philip Pape: 2:08

Thanks, sam, for setting this up. I know you've been listening to the podcast a while, so you also have a lot of knowledge and experience. You mentioned that you're looking at counsel on what phase to go into next. Right, should you build? Should you maintain? Should you do fat loss? Um, and let's see. I, it says here, you've invested time in nutrition and fitness coaching with great results. Give credit for being dialed in in the behaviors, to the behaviors we care most about. So those would be the big pillars we talk about a lot and, um, I can make a case for each of the three options. We all can at any given time. Every day I'm thinking about these three options myself.

Philip Pape: 2:45

I'm like because are you the type of person who just loves to push a little bit and kind of vary things up?

Speaker 2: 3:06

nerd out on this stuff. I have really good systems in place and I frankly do get a little bored and restless. So I, like I probably too often kind of reconsider the plan, like, oh, does it need tweaking? Does it need tweaking? And a lot of times the answers just stay the course. But that's sort of what I want to talk about is like am I just being restless and a little, you know, do I need to just kind of settle in? But I do think it's helpful for me to hear what I'm settling into and kind of for the right reasons.

Philip Pape: 3:32

So yeah, and you hit the nail on the head by saying the right reasons, because usually what I come back to is the front of the loop and the back of the loop. The front of the loop is like envisioning your future self. Why are you doing this? What does it look like? What are you actually trying to achieve? Like, what is the real reason here, the purpose driving you other than short-term? Yeah, I like up a good project, which is also acceptable, and then and then, um, knowing that you've been through this before, you know there's some level of, I'll say, discomfort, um, in change. And so what's going to give you the most momentum toward that goal in the next, say, six to 12 months? So how does what resonates with you there?

Speaker 2: 4:11

I guess I'm I'm torn because one of your first questions always is, and ought to be, like what's your goal, what are you working towards? And kind of what's your why for that goal Right? Kind of what's your why for that goal right? Like fair questions, I think I'm torn because I want to build muscle and I particularly want to get my bone density score higher. I had a recent DEXA scan.

Speaker 2: 4:35

This is very much on my mind, so I know what's needed in order to do that. I need to push it in the gym more, just as some very quick backstory on gym training. So I would say for many, many years I've always been a very fit and active person, but for many years, kind of in my twenties and thirties I'm now in my late forties, I would say my RPE during workouts, bar cycling, hiking, that kind of stuff my RPE was always like three, four. You know it's kind of mild to moderate. I would say the last two to five years I've gotten much more comfortable with being in like a five six zone and now I'm looking, I know I need to move more into an RPE of like seven, eight and nine in the gym, particularly around strength training, if I'm going to move the needle on building muscle. So I've recently started following a program I really like I don't know if you know Marcus Philly functional bodybuilding.

Philip Pape: 5:37

Yeah, I know, I don't know that specific one Continue.

Speaker 2: 5:40

He's great. He's kind of an ex crossfitter who's really come up with a lot more kind of sane approach to weightlifting and a lot of mobility work. So anyway, I really like his program. I'm weightlifting currently four times a week, but I know the direction I need to go in has a lot to do with increasing intensity, so, like when it comes to the muscle building and the bone density piece, I kind of understand how to do that.

Speaker 2: 6:06

I think the part that feels like maybe I'm torn about is I also would like to have um, lower body fat than I currently do and, um, this is the part that I just sort of not sure about. I'm currently sitting at 18%. Last year I had done a fat loss phase and I got down to 14%. I felt amazing. I felt shredded, I felt strong, I liked how I looked in clothes, I felt confident, and that was a very hard place to stay.

Speaker 2: 6:41

In the course of a year I've put back on seven pounds, not through being slovenly or not moving. I've been constantly active and training, but I do think my body kind of likes to sit where it always kind of has and to go down from there requires a caloric restriction at being in a calorie deficit, but it comes with, I think, a pretty good feeling, and that's where I get torn. Okay, you might tell me, in order to put on muscle, you've got to go into a build. And I'm kind of sitting here going. I feel really ambivalent about that because I'm already at the top end of my weight range. If I just start kind of increasing calories, even in a slow and steady way, I might feel a lot of discomfort with that, and I so. Anyway, I've said a lot.

Philip Pape: 7:36

No, you said a lot of great things on a lot of really good points, so I took some notes, cause there's different things we should cover here. Um, let's start strategic. Let's start strategic. Let's start high level. When you talk about discomfort and top of your range and all of that, it's very personal, right? I always tell people how do you know you're ready? You just know that you're kind of uncomfortable where you are and you want to go the other direction. Having said that, one question I always like to ask is besides a seven pound weight gain, have you ever intentionally tried to build muscle, or even been training to build muscle and slowly gained weight?

Speaker 2: 8:09

besides that, no, I've never gone into a caloric surplus, um, I have only ever been at maintenance and trying to add muscle or been in a deficit and trying to add muscle trying to add muscle, or been in a deficit and trying to add muscle.

Philip Pape: 8:27

Okay, and you mentioned that when you got shredded it was hard to maintain, which means your body set point might float a little bit higher than that, which is totally normal, especially when you're talking 14%, which when I always subtract 10 to think of a man, it was like 5%. It's very lean again, not right or wrong, but it makes a lot of sense. So I would first ask and rule out or accept in is there a really driving reason to get shredded?

Speaker 2: 8:52

right now? Absolutely no, none of that. It was just a feeling of confidence that I haven't typically experienced day to day. I really like how clothes fit. I liked how I felt naked, frankly, like I just felt comfortable, strong and confident. So, but no, there's no kind of event, there's no particular anything that's significant.

Philip Pape: 9:25

Okay. So the next thing I want to get to because I want to come back to the three options maintenance, fat loss, muscle building is when you talk about training intensity. I like that because sometimes we feel like we have to bring out the intensity or, like you said, you're not feeling like you're necessarily training as intensely as you can and you understand that that's important. How do you know? So this is kind of just putting you on the spot how do you know you're training intensely or not?

Speaker 2: 9:53

One obvious side effect for me is getting a little sore at times. I would say when I've been weightlifting before exercising, kind of prior to this year, last year, I didn't experience soreness kind of ever, and now I'm trying to feel it a little bit more the next day as some biofeedback, like hey, your body responded to what you did yesterday. So that's one thing. I think the other thing is, mentally, when I'm choosing a weight that I'm doubting can I do that, that's usually an indicator that I'm stepping out of my comfort zone.

Philip Pape: 10:31

That's a good one.

Philip Pape: 10:31

No, I like that right, because sometimes it is about making the attempt regardless.

Philip Pape: 10:37

So what I think of when you say you're doing four days a week and it's kind of a bodybuilding thing, is um, when I work with a beginner who's never lifted before, for example, we're going to use like a very simple strength based program I deal with barbells if they have it, if not, we can use dumbbells, and I would I would actually use a program that involves pushing load and only load and not reps or rep ranges, not even rep ranges. Right Sets across like starting strength, something like that, only because it basically tricks you into getting more intense, like, involuntarily you are going to, it's going to get to a point where the RP is getting to six, seven, maybe eight or even nine. Um, assuming you don't push, you know the load too much from one session to the next, cause that's one of the variables. You don't push, you know the load too much from one session to the next, because that's one of the variables, and so have you. Have you done like a focus to strength?

Speaker 2: 11:26

training. You know, push the numbers type program A little bit. I wouldn't say program, but like. So part of the help and the coaching that I've gotten over the course of the past 18 months was I worked with a trainer so that I could feel what it felt like. Well, first of all I wanted to get like really good form, but I also wanted to feel what it felt like to go somewhere I hadn't been before with someone watching, because I was scared.

Speaker 2: 11:50

It brings up a lot of fear in me to go to like seven, eight, nine. So not a program per se, but I've, I've done, I've had some rehearsal with what it feels like to kind of push and get uncomfortable.

Philip Pape: 12:04

Okay, and now this segues then into the phases. Because if you're in a fat loss phase, you know a bodybuilding style program can be great because it's auto-regulated right, like you can adjust um, you can be, you can push intensely, even if your strength isn't necessarily increasing, and hold on to muscle. But that that's. That's. The goal is to hold on to muscle, which it sounds like you've kind of already gone through. That Um, I'm leaning, like for you more toward maintenance, recomp, man, maybe muscle building. I know you came with maybe some preconceived notions like he's going to tell me to gain Um, and obviously it I don't. I'm not going to tell me to gain Um, and obviously I don't. I'm not going to force you to do anything, obviously. But where, where, where the options are, are um maintenance right? If, if your body fat is in what you think of as a healthy range and your training is progressing, um, that could be a really beneficial place to be, because then you can, I'll say, chase the numbers in the gym. You can chase the progression in the gym as your like metric, and not worry about body weight, body anything really. Just, yeah, I take body measurements once a week, things like that, but you can just focus on the growth and the energy and the performance without pushing yourself to that level of, like my clothes don't fit, discomfort, self doubt, looking in the mirror and but also not worried about like, starving yourself to get to it. I'm not saying that's what you did, but there are sacrifices in both directions. Um, the pros being that you know the pros of that approach being you could potentially gain some muscle with minimal fat gain. It's very flexible for your life. You could just live and enjoy the summer which is coming up right without feeling uncomfortable in a bathing suit. Uh, if, if you have the occasional high stress or other demanding things in your life, it's, it's great Cause you're energized, right, yeah, the really only downside it's going to be a little slower. The visual changes are slower. It requires a little more patience. Um, I like to track even more precisely in maintenance, just cause it's, you know, sometimes hard to tell what's going on without doing that, but it's a great place to be. So that's one option.

Philip Pape: 14:00

The other option when we talk about muscle building is if you're willing to accept a little bit of fat gain, knowing that you can really pack on some more lean tissue so that later lean phases you can get, say, shredded at a higher body fat, with more food, with higher calories, with less impact to your hormones, less negative biofeedback. It's a short-term kind of trade-off for that, right, where the benefit that you go after and you focus on is on chasing the strength and size, and size in a good way, right, because I know some people and women you know chided that thought of bulkiness. You upgrade, upregulate your metabolism, you know you potentially eat more food which helps you develop that skill of doing that in a controlled way. Uh, the cons, of course. Now you're going to have a little more fat there and maybe psychologically run into some issues. So, having said all this, is there a place that you're leaning toward so far, or do we need to drill in a little bit more?

Speaker 2: 14:58

I guess it's one thing I feel a little bit uncertain about, and maybe the whole answer is like I've just never really pushed to a level of intensity where the muscle building is really like alive and well. So I think that like that is a place to really put my focus, like that is something I can control, is like regardless of you know, we're really only talking about like 50 more calories a week, if I do the math, kind of the way that I think you counseled prior clients to do um, which is not significant at all, but the bigger kind of lever it feels like right now is okay, really committing to the training yes and if I did that at maintenance, just to see, like, does that move the needle at all?

Speaker 2: 15:44

And the hypothesis is that a little bit more food would be the variable that would like move the needle a little bit more. Um, I still don't entirely understand why that's the case. If my protein is really high, which it is right now, and I'm training intensely, what would just a little bit more food do? Can maybe you address that piece, because that would help me make sense of the delta between maintenance and a little bit more.

Philip Pape: 16:16

Yeah, I mean, I think of the body as a system and you've got lots of mechanisms going on, like just now sitting there, right, you have so many mechanisms with your hormones, um, keeping you alive, with your organs. Organs actually are very hungry. People don't realize that, and when you're at, let's say, you're at true maintenance exactly the maintenance you need you have everything required to maintain homeostasis and that's where your body likes to be. And so if you go into the gym and you hit it hard, your body, let's say, has to hit a decision point. Do I devote some of the resources coming in to build that muscle by sacrificing storage of energy, which is like a survival mechanism, or do I just, um, maintain what's there and it's?

Philip Pape: 17:04

And here's the thing there's a lot of debates today about whether maintenance is really all you need. I think what it comes down to is the experienced folks, the trainers and lifters out there who are talking about this. They really know how to stay on that aggressive side of maintenance, which is kind of like. You mentioned 50 calories. To me, that's like almost maintenance, right, even though you might be more petite and a lighter body weight. That's why your calories needs and now it can go out and give you um, the, the amino acids you know, devoted to structural build, building of the muscles, and and it's a fine threshold. Because if you, if you're not quite at that threshold, it's still like maintenance and then your body is just kind of floating. And if it's well beyond that, you know, the more you go, the more you're likely to hit that maximum. But then you keep going and you're going to gain more fat, right? That's why we're trying to find that spot. So I don't know if that explained it for you.

Philip Pape: 18:04

It's, I guess not well understood as the exact mechanisms. Why?

Speaker 2: 18:08

No, but I kind of think about it almost from like a resources perspective, that like when resources are scarce, obviously your body is going to try to hold on to it. When resources are just plentiful enough, you're going to kind of stay as things are. But you kind of have to move into like a little bit more of this surplus for your body to be able to release and like to kind of change its focus somehow.

Philip Pape: 18:32

Yeah, it's a prioritization.

Philip Pape: 18:33

And also because you're leaner, you don't have excess energy and so your body, like the hormonal signaling, is even more errors on the side of homeostasis, of holding onto that energy.

Philip Pape: 18:46

So it's kind of like a slight disadvantage that leaner folks have. Right, if you were overweight or even just a little bit, had a little bit of extra fat, your body would perceive maintenance as still potentially a surplus because of the extra fat storage you know it's. It's all just a net energy system to think of it that way. So that's why I do like for you since you basically laid out your thoughts uh, an aggressive maintenance which would be like a lean gain of like uh, 0.15% body weight a week, let's say around that range which would gain very little scale weight over a meaningful period. Like you could do it for six to nine months and you're not talking about a lot of pounds, right. But you give your body the best chance to build. And what's neat about that too, sam, is even though how do I put this there's a chance for some recomp as well while you're doing that, right, meaning because you're in that safety point. Your body might then release some more fat anyway as part of that process.

Philip Pape: 19:42

So kind of interesting place to be.

Speaker 2: 19:44

Yeah, okay, um, and then just last question, in terms of like knowing I'm really at maintenance, I'm looking at my trend weight and so over the course of from Jan one to now, it has fluctuated within four pounds. So some weeks it's up, some weeks it's down. The weeks it's down it's often deliberate, it's not accidental. I'm like, oh, I didn't like the spike from a couple weeks ago. Let me kind of pull my calories down a bit. But within that four pound range, do we tend to think of maintenance as a range or do we tend to think of maintenance as, like within a pound, like a very kind of tidy little unit?

Philip Pape: 20:24

No, the former, yeah, the former. Um, two or three pounds plus or minus is a good. You know, the lighter you are, the smaller the absolute number, but, like for most people, it's like two to three pounds in either direction. So you're talking about like a six pound swing. So you've been a maintenance. That's what I would say. If I saw your purple graph, it'd be like kind of right in that window, right, yeah, yeah, in which case then, a dedicated lean gain should see a very slight drift upward over time. You know, um, the the what.

Philip Pape: 20:51

So here's an interesting, since you've never done this on purpose, um, one of the challenges you might run into is your metabolism responds upward and you fall behind and you're actually no longer in aggressive maintenance, and so you kind of have to get it and look at your expenditure and see how it's trending.

Philip Pape: 21:07

If it starts to take off like really steeply, I would usually advise getting ahead of that by eating more, you know, just to kind of avoid a plateau, because the plateau is just kind of wasting time. If you know, just to kind of avoid a plateau, cause the plateau is just kind of wasting time, if you will, at maintenance. Um, and then the training side. This is really up to you. But, um, if you've never done like a super meaningful strength training focus, I would. I would bias your program toward that where you have either full on main lift focus or a hybrid like what they'd call power building, which is main lifts with some bodybuilding but like focused on the heavier side, especially when your concern is bone density you know you're saying versus hypertrophy versus just hypertrophy or just like eight to 12 rep range type stuff, not to say.

Philip Pape: 21:51

I mean, you probably have heard the science by now. There's a lot of flex in all of that and you could have a hypertrophy bias. In a strength program, for example, you might have one lift that's a main lift and you you do it in like an eight to 12 rep range but then you'll progress over time to like a lower rep range as it gets heavier and it becomes strength, but then it cycles back to the higher rep range as it gets heavy. Um, you can do more of a pot, power building, which is like I'm going to do a main lift, heavy, I'm going to do a support main lift or developmental lift. So you might do like a squat and then a sumo deadlift and then two or three bodybuilding style, right.

Philip Pape: 22:29

Or you could do just straight up strength, where it's like I'm going to do three or four main lifts and variants of main lifts, all compound lifts. You know I'll do a, I'll do a squat, I'll do a sumo, I'll do an RDL, maybe one bodybuilding support thing and call it a day, but like they're all pretty heavy, right, how do you? How do you do? You have a trainer that's giving you a program now, or what are you following?

Speaker 2: 22:50

No, I'm. I bought Marcus program and so following it I move every day of the week, but I'm weightlifting four days. It does tend to be the higher rep range stuff which I was thinking about more like from an aesthetic perspective, looking like I lift, which is always like a fantasy, but you're saying from a bone density perspective, especially thinking about going heavier and not being as hemmed in by those higher reps.

Philip Pape: 23:20

Yeah, it's. It's mainly for that, because your strength and function and bone density is all I think. I think that's like priority number one. Did you listen to my recent episode, strength versus hypertrophy? Yeah, I mean, maybe re-listen to that Cause, then you kind of hear the logic and the progression of it yeah. Yeah, re-listen to that, because then you kind of hear the logic and the progression of it. Yeah, yeah, re-listen to that one.

Philip Pape: 23:44

Um it all works, I'll say, Um, but I like efficiency, you know. Yeah, yeah, Me too. If you can get super strong, it can then translate to having more confidence and higher lifts with your hypertrophy work Also. Doing it that way gives you even more idea of intensity and training close to failure. Yeah, Because when it's five reps for three sets and you can only do five reps, you're up there like RPE eight maybe and you feel it and you know what it's like. But it also won't necessarily make you sore. But for the first time you do it right, Because the body adapts quickly and maybe learning to not necessarily chase soreness but really chase growth is the way to go.

Philip Pape: 24:26

Anyway, I think you have a good. I think you have a good plan aggressive maintenance, um, strength focus. Obviously, if you need specific resources, I've got plenty. I can send you some of our workout programs or point you to some trainers that I like for that Um. And then, since you're already using macro factor, you know how to set that up. So I think you're golden. What?

Speaker 2: 24:44

do you think I feel great. I mean, I'm just basically listening to your podcasts as like a little coach in my ear and trying to make adjustments, kind of based on what I'm hearing and learning all the time. Um, so I'm going to, I'm going to try this out and I might come back to you at some point and just sort of say I think I'm ready to do more of a build, but I'd like to kind of partner and have somebody helping me do that. Just cause that every time. You know it's like the first time you do anything. Sometimes it's helpful to have a coach A hundred percent.

Philip Pape: 25:16

There's so many things. You don't know. You don't know.

Speaker 2: 25:18

That's where I like to put it.

Philip Pape: 25:20

So now you're now you're playing offense, now you've got some good data to get started. I'm really excited for you because it's you've got so much like potential there. I just know it, I can feel it. You have a great attitude and I think you're you're committed and you're going to make it happen. So awesome, sam.

Speaker 2: 25:34

Okay, awesome Phil. Thank you, I so appreciate your time.

Philip Pape: 25:37

Thanks so much. You know how to reach me and have a great day. Enjoy your time in New York and we'll talk soon. Thank you, sounds good, take it easy. All right, and that was my recording with Sam and if you found value in that, if you want your own personalized guidance, like Sam received for your situation, I invite you to go ahead and book your own free 15-minute rapid nutrition assessment with me. Don't be shy, I'm a nice guy, I'll make you feel at ease.

Philip Pape: 26:02

It is not a sales pitch. Basically, it's us talking about the thing holding you back right now, whether it's nutrition, what to do next, your training, really anything and give you some targeted, actionable steps in a fast-paced 15 minutes. So to schedule it, use the link in the show notes or go to witsandweightscom and click the button at the top. Again, no sales pitch, just some guidance from me to you to help you achieve your goals more efficiently. All right, so as we wrap up, I think the most exciting thing about my conversation with Sam and hopefully you got that as well is just focusing on the fundamentals, the pillars right, progressive overload, proper nutrition, consistency with your habits.

Philip Pape: 26:40

You're gonna transform yourself without anything radical. You just need to know a direction and then a consistent plan to get there, knowing there will be deviations along the way, and that's totally okay. Your metabolism's very adaptable, you're very adaptable. So get on that and also schedule your call if you think it'll be helpful. Until next time, keep using your wits lifting those weights and remember that the most powerful fitness tool it's not in a supplement, it's not in the latest YouTube workout program. It is the intelligent application of effort where it matters most. I'll talk to you next time here on the Wits and Weights Podcast.

Your Secret Weapon for Fat Loss is NOT a Calorie Deficit or Macros | Ep 314

Is fat loss really made in the kitchen (combined with strength training)?

Or do we have it backward?

This episode examines why building muscle must be your first priority for any successful physique transformation... even before worrying about calorie deficits or macros.

You'll discover how strength training creates the metabolic foundation that makes fat loss dramatically easier, why muscle tissue acts as your body's "glucose sink" improving insulin sensitivity, and how this approach leads to better regulated hunger signals and more sustainable results than traditional dieting.

Let's challenge what the fitness industry teaches about weight loss and give you a more efficient starting point for your transformation.

Main Takeaways:

• Building muscle first creates a metabolic environment where fat loss becomes dramatically easier

• Strength training improves insulin sensitivity through the "glucose sink" effect

• The right approach allows you to eat more food while achieving better results

• Building a muscular foundation changes your entire relationship with nutrition and fitness

Episode Resources:

• Follow The B.Rad Podcast for more great content from Brad Kearns

Timestamps:

0:01 - Why the traditional approach to fat loss is backward
8:54 - Why fat loss shouldn't be your first priority
15:32 - How strength training cascades to better eating habits
19:38 - How lifting prevents metabolic disease
23:27 - How your metabolism adapts to increased food intake
31:44 - The Norwegian training revolution: eat more, train harder
39:35 - Why even the "perfect diet" is not enough without training
47:22 - Walking as essential daily movement
57:27 - How walking more improves health markers
1:03:03 - The simple approach to starting with strength training

Build Muscle First and Fat Loss Becomes Effortless

If you’ve ever been told that fat loss starts with a calorie deficit, I want to challenge that idea head-on.

Most of the fitness industry has it backwards. The typical prescription—“just eat less and move more”—assumes your body is primed to drop fat if you simply create a deficit. But that’s like trying to drive a car with no engine and hoping momentum will carry you forward.

The real secret weapon for long-term, sustainable fat loss is muscle.

Let’s unpack that.

Why Starting with Fat Loss Rarely Works

When most people decide to transform their physique, their first move is to slash calories and start doing cardio. But if your body lacks muscle mass, this strategy fails in two major ways:

1. You burn fewer calories at rest (low BMR).

2. Your body becomes more prone to muscle loss during dieting, which further lowers your metabolism.

This is why so many people hit plateaus, experience extreme hunger, and end up regaining the fat they lost—often with interest.

A Muscle-Centric Approach Changes the Game

Building muscle first does three things most diets can’t:

1. Increases your metabolic rate. Muscle is metabolically active tissue, meaning it burns more calories even at rest. As you gain muscle, your maintenance calories go up.

2. Improves insulin sensitivity. Muscle acts as a glucose sink, soaking up carbs and helping regulate blood sugar and hunger hormones like GLP-1 (yes, the same one targeted by Ozempic).

3. Regulates hunger. Strength training has a powerful normalizing effect on appetite. Once you’re building muscle and eating enough, fat loss phases become easier and don’t require white-knuckling through hunger.

This creates a metabolic environment where fat loss becomes almost effortless after you've built the foundation.

Lifting is Not Optional—It’s the Catalyst

Most of my clients are busy professionals in their 30s, 40s, and 50s who struggle with stubborn fat despite “doing everything right.” They’re walking, eating clean, even tracking food—but they’re not strength training effectively. Once we shift their focus to lifting heavy 3x per week and pull back on all the unnecessary cardio, things start to change—fast.

You can’t sculpt a pebble. Build the rock first.

Even if you’re already carrying excess body fat, lifting should still be your top priority. Yes, even before dieting. Because that muscle you build now protects you from fat regain later.

Training First, Then Diet—Not the Other Way Around

Here’s what this looks like in practice:

• Start with a baseline phase: two months of strength training, tracking intake, and letting your metabolism adapt upward.

• Watch your hunger, sleep, energy, and biofeedback improve as training becomes a part of your life.

• Then, if needed, enter a modest fat loss phase—eating more than you ever thought possible while still dropping fat.

This is why many of my clients never diet again after doing it right once. They build the metabolic machinery first, then tap into it when it's time to lean out.

Why Cardio Isn’t the Answer

Cardio isn’t bad. But most people overuse it, doing long sessions of steady-state or HIIT thinking it’ll burn the fat off. What actually happens?

• You burn relatively few calories compared to the time investment.

• You increase cortisol and stress, especially in women dealing with hormonal issues.

• You risk muscle breakdown unless you’re lifting alongside it.

Strength training, on the other hand, is cardio for many people. It spikes your heart rate, stimulates your muscles, and gives you the “afterburn” effect (excess post-exercise oxygen consumption). Add in walking and optional sprints or sled pushes and you’re golden.

Your Body Wants to Be Strong—Let It

Muscle isn’t just about aesthetics or performance. It’s your long-term insurance against aging, diabetes, insulin resistance, and frailty. It makes eating more food possible without fat gain. It improves body image, energy levels, and even mental health.

You don’t need to chase your VO₂ max. You don’t need endless cardio. You need to get strong.

And once you do? Fat loss gets easier, hunger becomes manageable, and you’re no longer stuck yo-yoing between crash diets and burnout.

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Transcript

Philip Pape: 0:01

You've been told that fat loss is made in the kitchen, with a calorie deficit combined with strength training to hold on to your muscle. But what if that's completely backward? What if building muscle must come first in your transformation journey if it's really going to work? Your metabolism, your insulin sensitivity, your hunger signals and, yes, your ability to shed stubborn fat is tied into how much muscle you have, and most fit pros aren't going to tell you this because it challenges the industry's eat less, move more mantra and what they're trying to push, which is generally weight loss. Today's episode reveals why strength training creates the metabolic engine that makes fat loss almost effortless by comparison and gives you a framework to finally get those lasting results. Welcome to Wits and Weights, the show that helps you build a strong, healthy physique using evidence, engineering and efficiency.

Philip Pape: 1:04

I'm your host, philip Pape, and today's episode is something special because I recently had the opportunity to be interviewed on the Be Rad podcast with Brad Kearns, former world-ranked professional triathlete, guinness World Record holder and New York Times bestselling author. And this is around the time. I read his book, co-written with Mark Sisson, called Born to Walk, and he had me on his show because we wanted to tackle one of the most persistent misconceptions or myths in fitness the idea that calorie restriction and diet should be your first priority for fat loss, or indeed that quote unquote fat loss itself should be the first thing you do. Instead, we explored why building muscle through strength training is the foundation upon which all successful body transformations are built. So why wait? This discussion aligns perfectly with what I've been teaching for years on this show that a muscle-centric approach creates the metabolic conditions for easier fat loss. Approach creates the metabolic conditions for easier fat loss, for better health, for long-term sustainability.

Philip Pape: 2:09

Rather than create another entirely new episode on this topic, I wanted to share this conversation because I essentially hit the juggler Is that the term? I went straight for the juggler when it talks to the principles that I regularly discuss anyway, and I think it's a great encapsulation of that. If you enjoy this episode, all I ask is go ahead and hit follow on Wits and Weights if you haven't already, and that way you'll catch every episode when they come out on Mondays, wednesdays and Fridays. And then go ahead and follow Brad's podcast Be Rad with Brad Kearns, and I love his podcast because of the aspect he takes when it comes to cardiovascular fitness and endurance, especially from the perspective he comes from. All right, so here we go. Here's my conversation with Brad Kearns about why building muscle first is your secret weapon for effective fat loss. Philip Pape, we are here. We are here. Good to see you again, brad.

Brad Kearns: 3:02

I had so much fun joining you on your fabulous podcast Wits and Weights, where we talked about the book Born to Walk and a broad-based approach to functional fitness, and so I said we got to get over to B-Rad and get in deep with the great work you're doing over there, especially as you describe your, I guess, quantified and analytical approach to proper fitness protocols. And I've always been kind of a intuitive style athlete and not getting deep into a regimented approach because I know that doesn't work for me from experience. But I also realize when I'm performing or pursuing these complex goals, like trying to be a sprinter in the old man's division and dealing with minor injuries and aches and pains and things that set me back that you really have to be careful and strategic with your dispensation of energy in order to progress with fitness. So I thought we could get into that background mission statement of your podcast and then some of the the fun things that you've learned as a host and fun topics that really have resonated with your, your listeners. How's that for an intro man?

Philip Pape: 4:13

yeah, man, that's a great intro. It's funny. I just heard you talking on your show about um you were talking to one of the greatest runners of all time and how she has an intuitive approach. And I get these comments all the time from folks that say, well, I'm not a data person, I'm not um, I'm not an engineer, I don't think that way. And yet I've talked to experts who are professional bodybuilders, competitive bodybuilders, who had one point in their life where they said, look, I need to buckle down and use some sort of tracking or measurement just to know where I am and to calibrate where I am first, and build that skill and build that intuition, and then, at some point in their lives, they have that level of intuition that they don't need to do it anymore. So I hear what you're saying, man. I could go both directions and the spectrum is wide and I'm all about flexibility. So, yeah, let's get into it.

Brad Kearns: 5:01

Yeah, you were talking about Shelby Houlihan, the American record holder at middle Distance, who just came back from a four-year layoff, and I was really blown away about how she mentioned that intuitive approach and just getting out the door and running at whatever pace she felt like. And so here's like one of the fastest female runners in the world who, if you were training with her, you'd be like how fast are we going today? I don't know, we'll see. And it was really a profound insight. But at the same time, she's working with the greatest coaches on the planet who have a very, very refined and sophisticated approach.

Brad Kearns: 5:35

I had Grant Fisher's coach on my show, michael Scannell, old friend of mine, who I used to race with in a professional duathlon, and he reported how they sat down in November and plotted out his path to the Paris Olympics and where he had the magnificent performance of winning two bronze medals in both the long distance events of 5,000 and 10,000. But he had every workout planned from November to August 4th for the first race and August 9th for the second race. And that was fascinating and he said he was so structured and so focused that he hit basically every single workout. So that's the sign of a really well-informed training program If you can lock in and perform every workout as desired. But of course, for the average recreational enthusiast that's listening to wits and weights or trying to get out there and stay fit and as well as coach soccer and perform in the in the corporate setting, uh, that's when we have to. We're forced to have a more fluid approach, but we still might benefit from that foundation of structure and quantification yeah, I think there's a place for guardrails.

Philip Pape: 6:40

while being simplified and also the the intuitive aspect in terms of, let's say, your biofeedback, how your sleep is, your stress, your digestion, your hunger, those things can be quantified, even though they're subjective, and so you're kind of melding the two together just to give yourself an idea of where the heck you're landing right now, to even make a decision from and have informed data.

Brad Kearns: 7:05

What kind of stuff is important, like if someone came in as a new client who's proclaimed a desire to get fit and they're doing a little bit of this and that, but now they want to get into a program.

Philip Pape: 7:15

Yes, I help with clients with strength training, body composition, fat loss, and it's funny because we do. We have a lot of the same approach when it comes to getting stress off of the body through potentially reducing the amount of cardio and, uh, how much you're working out and also training in a way that gives you more recovery. Especially as we age, people complain about, you know, their joints, um, and injuries and health issues, and they're stressed because of life and their family. They have families, like you said, because of life, and they are family. They have families, like you said, gen pop, we have, you know, two jobs or running a business and parents, and so, um, when we start, I I just like to spend two months baselining what you're doing and giving you your own self-awareness of how much you're eating, what you're eating, the composition of the food, some of the micronutrients and the fiber, um, how the movement and the training you're doing affects your recovery, because I don't want to say, hey, here's the best program for you on day one if I don't even know you yet.

Philip Pape: 8:10

I do an intake but I don't really know. I want to see how your expenditure and your metabolism responds to the things you're doing. I want to understand how your hunger and your sleep responds, because after two months you may be in a great position to build muscle rather than try to diet and lose fat and have the best outcome that way. We just don't know until we have that initial, you know data set. So having a coach to guide that uh, you know with you, it's kind of like the analogy you said with these elite athletes. Even a gen pop person can have that person in their corner and take off some of the mental stress and even emotional stress, right when they can be the person that you can unload to, and all you got to do is just enter the numbers and your coach can kind of help you understand what the numbers mean and then you can make decisions from there.

Brad Kearns: 8:54

What is a gen pop person?

Philip Pape: 8:58

Oh, what do you mean Like general population?

Brad Kearns: 9:00

I just oh gen pop Okay, I thought you were going to say like gen X, gen Y and gen pop, like for old old mans or whatever. Yeah.

Philip Pape: 9:07

Okay, gotcha General population Is dropping excess body fat, the preeminent goal that you see the intent is the person's thought when they come to me weight loss or building muscle and we have to reframe it, and that's one thing we can get into is we reframe weight loss away from scale weight and to body composition, metabolic health and having a muscle-centric approach to health and physique.

Brad Kearns: 9:37

So maybe you can go deep on that term. What does it mean to you?

Philip Pape: 9:41

The term body composition.

Brad Kearns: 9:43

Muscle-centric approach oh, muscle-centric approach?

Philip Pape: 9:44

Oh, muscle-centric approach, yeah, so you know, we think I guess we talk about being over fat or obesity being a concern in society and for sure it is, I'm not going to deny that, and there are a lot of extrinsic factors, environmental factors behind that. But what I find is people are attempting to lose weight or lose fat as the predominant way that they get quote unquote healthy, kind of like they. Many people think running or cardio is the predominant way to get healthy or lose fat. We know that's not the case.

Brad Kearns: 10:11

Burning calories.

Philip Pape: 10:12

Yeah, yeah, burning calories. And until you've spent some time understanding how to train properly to add some strength and muscle to your frame, you can't maximize the health that you're going for, even if it is a great physique, because you haven't built the foundation, so you can't sculpt a pebble, is the analogy. I like you can sculpt a nice big stone, but you can't sculpt a pebble, so you've got to build that at some point. If you've got excess weight to lose or excess fat to lose from a metabolic health perspective, fine, we can get there, it's not a big deal, but at some point you then have to build muscle.

Brad Kearns: 10:48

It seems like someone who is succeeding building muscle is going to shed excess body fat in the process.

Philip Pape: 10:55

Exactly that's the secret that I don't like you don't know what it's experiencing.

Brad Kearns: 10:59

We gave it away. All the other trainers are listening, going. Oh, I'm going to redo my branding now.

Philip Pape: 11:04

Yeah, right, no, and that's the thing. You can't, you don't, you can't, you can't know that until you experience it, we can talk, talk about it all we want on our podcast, and I do, brad. Like half of my episodes in the last month are probably about why you should gain weight, you know, or why you should build muscle, and it's not always about gaining weight on the scale, brad right. It is really about energy and fueling yourself and performance mindset, rather than even a physique or a scale mindset. And once you're focused on performance, all the other things start to come in mind. Whether you're trying to lose fat or not, like you said, you will start to lose fat. It gets easier. Your metabolism increases because of the extra muscle mass, the extra weight you're carrying around, the lower stress, the higher protein, the higher fiber. It all aligns really well.

Brad Kearns: 11:51

It also seems like right now, as I am a member of the 60 plus division I just turned 60 recently and so I'm looking around at my peers and I have a lot of lifelong friends who have had extreme or a decent or good devotion to athletics and fitness and all that but it seems like we're now kind of turning a corner, hitting a fork in the road, where the first and foremost objective is to build or preserve that lean muscle mass and muscle strength and not so concerned primarily with keeping the waistline down. But I think you know the dad, bod and the busy working parent, male or female, from ages 25 to age 50 or what have you, is kind of just not eating too much food and keeping your pants size the same. But now it seems like, you know, we have an intense focus and a desperate need to keep that muscle on, to the extent that we might even, you know, rethink some of these strategies that maybe have been successful to manage caloric intake.

Philip Pape: 12:59

Yeah, are you familiar with Jonathan Sullivan? Some people call him Sully or Dr Sully. He wrote the barbell prescription and he uses a term called the athlete of aging, to that exact concept. If we think of life as not an inevitable decline but really an athletic pursuit where we want to thrive as a human and again, this is why I resonate with your message so hard, is that that's what we want. When I'm 95, I still want to be deadlifting, like I want to die doing a deadlift. You know what I mean, like whatever that means to you.

Philip Pape: 13:31

And it hits really close to home for me, brad, because I've had two situations just in the last two weeks with family members one who passed away after being in a nursing home for a number of years and declining very quickly because he just wasn't mobile. He could have been but he kind of, I'll say, gave up on life. I hate to say it that way, but it was. It was sad, you know, and he was in a wheelchair and then the health issues accelerated, um, because of it. And then another family member who went to the hospital with heart issues. And it's, it's the same story we've heard so many times, the predominant story we hear with older folks of polypharmacy right Taking so many medications on top of each other, of heart conditions, of metabolic disease, type 2 diabetes, all of these age-related diseases, even some cancers, could all be prevented with a little extra muscle mass, a little more movement and just watching what you eat and really enjoying the process too.

Brad Kearns: 14:28

So, when you have an intake or a thousand of them, what are the prevailing themes Like? What do you think is the biggest and most egregious offense to healthy living and longevity?

Philip Pape: 14:43

That's a good one. The most egregious offense.

Brad Kearns: 14:46

So is it the junk food diet or is it the, uh, you know, sedentary baseline daily pattern, that kind of thing?

Philip Pape: 14:54

Yeah, I mean, I guess the red flags are going to depend on the person, but it generally is the lack of training or training properly. So we're talking lifting weights and I know there's kind of this triumvirate, um and I know you talk about as well of you know lifting heavy things and then moving a lot, and then some sort of explosiveness, right, whether it's the sprinting or the player, what have you? Um, people are not training and so no matter what they do with their diet, it's not going to matter, because they're going to lose muscle. That's my perspective. So when someone comes to me and says I want to fix my diet, I don't care about lifting weights right now, I'm like, let's flip that around. Let's flip that around.

Philip Pape: 15:32

If I can get you in the gym, it's going to cascade to your desire to fuel what you're doing in the gym, to want to eat healthier. You're going to have better regulated hunger signals year. You're going to have better regulated hunger signals. You're going to have greater insulin sensitivity, all the other things that lead to the eating side becoming much easier. And guess what? You'll have a little more resilience, even if your diet isn't so great, like at least to start, until we start to optimize it going forward.

Brad Kearns: 15:55

Yeah, I think what you just said is hugely underrated. Like people do not make that connection, they you know the diet industry is massive and all the programming and things we've heard our whole life to where you know you just got to manage your portion sizes and fast a little bit or try keto or do this or do that. But then maybe like describe in more detail how going and hoisting some weight around is going to optimize your dietary habits.

Philip Pape: 16:24

Yeah, yeah, this is. This is a great topic, I mean, I think so. There's multiple reasons for it. The big one is, I think, the hormones and the insulin sensitivity from lifting weights, which is extremely underrated because we know that insulinemia you know the term.

Brad Kearns: 16:42

Hyperinsulinemia is chronically excessive production of insulin.

Philip Pape: 16:45

Yes, yes yes, always trying to suck out the technical terms which is related to cortisol, which is related to the lack of muscle mass, is extremely important because muscle is a thing for glucose, right.

Philip Pape: 16:56

So the more muscle mass you have, the better you can utilize the carbs that you're eating. And I always talk about carbs in the context of how sedentary you are, because you can't simplify carbs being good or bad. Right, you can't just say, well, carbs are bad. Well, if you're sedentary for sitting on the couch all day, the more carbs you eat, sure, it's just going to go to fat storage it really any excess of calories are, but carbs especially right. And there's inflammation and et cetera.

Philip Pape: 17:21

And quite the opposite happens when your strength training is that your body wants to suck those carbs up, both the ATP and then the glycolytic process that comes after that from long training sessions, from having the muscle mass. It's just going to suck it up like a sponge. That's sort of the way I like to say it. And so you need those carbs. You want those carbs. Where was I going with this In that, from a metabolic and insulin perspective? For food, it means that you can have a very flexible diet, both in terms of macronutrients and calories. You can be fueled up, you can eat more food and be living the vast majority of your year, not dieting. That's what I wanted you to get to is where you're almost never dieting, isn't that great.

Brad Kearns: 18:06

I mean, I hope people do. You really get this insight deeply? You powered through that with a great explanation and the sync concept. So I want people to fully understand. When you have a lot of muscle mass on your body or you're stimulating the muscles in a workout, the, the glucose is going into the muscle to refuel and replenish. That's insulin's job is to restore energy into storage depots we know about how it does that into the fat stores, but it's also doing that to help, you know, replenish and recover your muscles. Compare and contrast to someone who's sitting around. What happens to that glucose? Well, in the case of the trends of modern lifestyle in America and across the world, you're gonna get type two diabetes over years and decades because the glucose just flows around in your bloodstream. Insulin is produced, that mechanism gets exhausted. That's that hyperinsulinemia, and then you have elevated glucose and elevated insulin and that's the disease pattern of life. So it's sort of you know, the reason that going and lifting weights is important is so you don't get diabetes.

Philip Pape: 19:18

In a nutshell, and, in the short term, take advantage of the fact that it, you know it suppresses those postprandial glucose spikes, blood spikes, which then affect your hunger signals. You have much better regulated satiety. All this GLP-1 talk about the weight loss drugs. Well, your body has that naturally and strength training can trigger it Without side effects.

Philip Pape: 19:38

Yeah, it can trigger it, which intends to decline with age, which is one of many reasons people have more and more difficulty as they age, unless you're training. So to me, lifting weights, I don't want to say it solves everything, but it is kind of the magic pill to a lot of these issues that people have with age. And Brad, I've had clients who are very well muscled and they need to lose some body fat because they're very over fat as well. But they have much better health markers than somebody with less muscle who's overweight. And that just tells you something right there that there's a huge mitigating factor, that muscle mass. That can't be underrated.

Brad Kearns: 20:15

I'm kind of curious how someone gets to that point, because if you are a fit enough person to carry around an impressive amount of muscle mass, why the heck do you still have a gut there? And it must be just horrible dietary choices that override all these beautiful insulin sensitivity benefits of lifting the weights every day.

Philip Pape: 20:37

Yeah, I mean. There's multiple reasons. One is intentional in the powerlifting world, People intentionally gain a lot of weight to push more lifts and get bigger numbers.

Brad Kearns: 20:46

Yeah, physics yeah.

Philip Pape: 20:48

That's all it is. Yeah, yeah, you get more cross-sectional area. Yeah, you know what I'm saying. The allometric scaling that occurs and then the absolute numbers that scale up once you gain more weight.

Philip Pape: 21:00

And, frankly, just, some people never had a great diet to begin with, even though they lift weights. It doesn't. They're not mutually exclusive. It's very possible to have a poor diet and still have been able to lift and build muscle over time, as long as you have the just net fuel in your body. It's not efficient.

Philip Pape: 21:16

But guys come to me and they're like hey, I've tried carnivore, I've tried this, I've tried that. And we we work together say look, all you need is a good, nutritious, nutritious, whole food diet. Look at your protein, look at your fiber. You're still going to have plenty of calories coming in, but we're just going to, you know, track what's going in your body and we're going to regulate that so that you can drop some of that fat and then get back to a nice lean state and then you're good to go. Um, I'm right now in a gaining phase, brad, I am. I mean, you can see me just by top. It's not like I'm. I'm fat, right, uh, but I do that on a regular basis, I will gain 20 pounds and then lose 20 pounds, but with the intent to build muscle over time.

Brad Kearns: 21:56

Uh, so describe how and why you initiate these gaining phases.

Philip Pape: 22:01

Yeah, for efficiency.

Philip Pape: 22:03

So if you gain right now the research based on the latest studies and meta-analysis, which are quite recent there've been maybe four or five studies in the last five years that have given us the most of this data Gaining weight at around, let's say, 0.3 to half a percent of your body weight a week for a beginner or intermediate is kind of the optimal level where you're going to gain the most muscle without gaining too much fat in terms of time duration, and it's going to depend on the individual.

Philip Pape: 22:32

So if you've done it before, you may know your individual numbers and they might be higher or lower. If you kind of know that, let me tell you I have spreadsheets for all this stuff, right, you know we have a numbers guy where you can plug in numbers and know exactly how efficient your muscle gaining was, so that next time you go in a bulk you could either go faster or slower, um, but then you do that and now you're talking six, nine, maybe 12 months where you add a significant amount of muscle, and we're talking multiple pounds, right, five, 10 pounds of muscle, uh, and then you can do a fat loss phase and then you can effectively sustain that. The alternative is doing a more intuitive approach and kind of maintaining your weight and building muscle slowly over time. It's just going to take a lot longer to add those slabs of meat to your body. That's all.

Brad Kearns: 23:16

So are you systematically over-consuming calories when you're in the gaining phase and as well as doing hypertrophy style workouts?

Philip Pape: 23:27

it's exactly what it is. Yeah, you're in an intentional calorie surplus. It's not crazy, it's not a dreamer bulk, as they would call it back in the day, where power lifters you know go in and order you know ten cheeseburgers and like three orders of fries, it is maybe 200 calories a day surplus, right, something like that for most people.

Brad Kearns: 23:45

That's what everybody eats, Philip, Come on Just naturally right. But they're not training. That ain't no surplus. We're in a lifelong surplus yeah.

Philip Pape: 23:53

Yeah. What happens, though, is if you're doing it consistently and by consistently I mean because you're tracking, you don't fall too low or you're unintentionally not in a surplus your expenditure, your metabolism will tend to ramp up quite a bit. Hundreds of calories, like for most people. For women, I'll tend to see anywhere from like 100 to maybe 400 or 500 calorie increase over the months. For guys, it could be 1,000. It could be 2,000. It's insane. And you're eating. You know where you start eating.

Brad Kearns: 24:22

2,600, 2,700 calories. You might end up 4,000 or more, Like I'm up to 4000 now. It's a lot of food, man. It's a lot of food. So your metabolism is increasing as a consequence of both eating more food and doing these strenuous workouts.

Philip Pape: 24:41

Yes, and gaining more weight? Right, Because you're carrying around more your BMR is higher. And probably metabolic adaptation, that it's like opposite metabolic adaptation, where your body is just so flooded with energy it tries to be as inefficient as possible in burning calories.

Brad Kearns: 24:57

How so.

Philip Pape: 24:57

Kind of the opposite of how. So what do you mean? How so?

Brad Kearns: 25:02

I mean you're over-consuming calories.

Philip Pape: 25:04

So what is the adaptation that's occurring where the body's trying to yeah, I mean, I believe it's just your body is not trying to hoard calories like it would during a fat loss phase, when, I mean at the mitochondrial level, you're even conserving energy. The hormones get downregulated. I think it's just the opposite of that, right? So I don't know to what extent that's the case. I think it's just the opposite of that. So I don't know to what extent that's the case. I don't think we have science that says it's.

Brad Kearns: 25:28

These are the exact components. Yeah, it's a fascinating, fascinating topic. Well, you know, it happens and the science is uh, what your scale says? Uh, three months later, because theoretically, you would gain um way more than you did if you just counted calories and had the same lower metabolic rate, right?

Philip Pape: 25:53

Right, exactly that's where you would hit plateaus if you weren't tracking that and staying on top of it. You basically have to over-consume by more each week as your body is ramping up.

Brad Kearns: 26:01

It's the opposite, uh, the traditional approach to uh fat loss, where you're lowering calories, lowering calories and a lot of times uh, that doesn't work so well, as we know.

Philip Pape: 26:13

Exactly. I'll say it's not a symmetrical problem. The fat loss side of the equation has lots more detrimental potential when you're chasing down into a deficit, because now getting to zero means you starve to death. Going the other way is a bit of a different situation. It's more of you're maybe trying to stuff yourself and I don't like to put it that way, because if somebody gets to that point, we need to talk and figure something out that is more sustainable. But it's not a symmetrical problem, if that makes sense.

Brad Kearns: 26:43

Well, also, what's interesting is, I assume you're choosing exclusively healthful, high satiety, high nutrient-dense foods, and so it's not the cheeseburger and the milkshake diet and therefore, like you say, it's a ton of calories. It feels like you're a chore to eat that much food because you still have optimal appetite and satiety signals, but you're overriding them in order to add some more muscle.

Philip Pape: 27:12

Yeah, that is actually a big challenge is when you have that high volume food and you're trying to gain weight. Now, if we think of whole foods, there are calorie dense whole foods right Like nuts. So that is where you start to incorporate more nutritious foods that are also calorie dense.

Philip Pape: 27:29

Liquids like a smoothie, yeah pre-digested things like that, and you know what. For flexibility, though, I do think it's okay to have maybe five, 10% of your diet. Just I don't want to say free for all, but it's there for some flexibility. I know we may not be on the 100% same page there, but in my view is, when people restrict completely, they tend to binge, they tend to go the other direction and, honestly, when you have everything else dialed in, you're, you're. You're pretty good from that perspective. The other thing, what's interesting you mentioned hunger. Your hunger signals regulate and then what I find happens is you're really good at telling whether your body needs more calories before you know it, like before the data tells you, because you can actually get hungry in a gaining phase. If you're starting to fall behind your metabolism, I'll have clients say why am I hungry? I'm eating 3,500 calories. I'm always eating 20. I'm like because your body is hungry.

Brad Kearns: 28:24

Yeah, that's fascinating, even though you're eating a lot of calories, yeah.

Brad Kearns: 28:27

Yeah, and you're turning up these important dials. I've talked about this a lot on my podcast referencing the work of Dr Herman Ponser, author of Burn, and talking to Jay Feldman four times the Energy Balance podcast, where he has this bioenergetic model of health where the more you consume in nutritious foods I'm talking exclusively about that, not shoveling junk down your throat but when you consume an optimal or even, in your case, like an aggressive amount of calories, you're going to turn up the dials of reproduction repair, growth and locomotion. I wonder if you experience certain symptoms like you're a little warmer or you're more fidgety at your work desk because your knee's tapping, because you have so much energy and so much energy to burn. I'm pleased to present B-Rad grass-fed whey protein isolate super fuel, the absolute highest quality all-natural protein supplement infused with creatine that delivers everything you need to optimize your appetite for fat loss, recover quickly from workouts and build and maintain lean muscle mass the single most important attribute for aging.

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Philip Pape: 30:54

Yeah, that's a really good one. You definitely get hotter. I hear that all the really good one. You definitely get hotter. I hear that all the time. It's like you get hotter. And so for women who are in peripost menopause and they have hot flashes already it's kind of an interesting one, although some of those symptoms get mitigated when they're actually building muscle. Just ladies who are listening, just so you know it's kind of interesting. But yeah, the fidgeting is another one. That definitely explains why your metabolism takes off like a rocket, because everything stacks on top of itself. You actually move more unconsciously, and this leads to the joke about powerlifters trying to do as little as possible when they're not lifting weights so that they don't have to eat even more. Right, it's kind of a joke. Right, we want to be active, we want to be walking. It's great for a joke. Right, we want to be active, we want to be walking, it's great for recovery, etc. But there is a long-time joke about powerlifters just like acting like sloths between their lifting sessions.

Brad Kearns: 31:44

Well, what's really interesting about that is now emerging research in the endurance athletic world, especially with these Norwegian triathletes who are coached by Olaf Alexander Boo triathletes who coached by Olaf Alexander Boo, a scientist with a scientific approach and we're now realizing that the consumption of calories as many as possible is fueling a more ambitious training regimen than we've ever seen, whereby these guys can go faster, for longer and train harder than any triathlete from back in historical times.

Brad Kearns: 32:17

And it's really fascinating to me because I felt like I stuffed my face every day for those nine years of training and traveling on the professional triathlon circuit and we always had to have food around us and I traveled with a bag of food, but it was the only way we could sustain a really ambitious training regimen.

Brad Kearns: 32:35

And we also learned from like old time bodybuilding culture that the limiting factor for Mr Universe to not have even bigger muscles, or Arnold in the movie Pumping Iron, the limiting factor was not that they couldn't train another hour a day and go from five hours a day to six hours a day. The limiting factor was the ability to digest and assimilate calories, and your stomach will explode if you go over 7,000 calories every day for six months time requiring you to down-regulate your training. But somehow the triathletes who are training eight hours a day now they're inhaling so much food, not only in real life but during exercise, that they're able to go really fast and be in the carbohydrate burning heart rates, rather than this huge emphasis we've always had at endurance of, like you wanna be a good fat burner and you wanna lower your heart rate, so you're burning emphasizing fat burning during your workouts and you're not getting tired. So it's kind of like flipping it on its ear to say eat more, train harder, get fitter, build more muscle, live longer.

Philip Pape: 33:40

Yeah, exactly, and I didn't know if that's always a good thing, but in general, if you're doing it right and you structure your recovery, well you can avoid, because what I also see is if you go too hard, then now you potentially have joint and tendon issues, especially for those bodybuilders where they're almost outpacing their own ability to with their connective tissue to support what they're doing. Of course, that's where enhanced and steroids come into play too for some of those Um, but that's another great point about why we we become this huge furnace is that you can train harder in an almost exponential way when you're highly fueled, thus accelerating the ability to build that muscle. Maybe that's why it's super efficient to be in a calorie surplus.

Brad Kearns: 34:23

You know that kind of ramp up of your.

Philip Pape: 34:25

I see it myself as well, and one of the hardest things is to pull back from that when you need to, when you're trying to like peak out on your strength, when you're trying to peak out on your strength and you actually want to reduce the volume and actually hit max loads, it feels like you're not working out that much, so you're almost, you almost like to have to hold back, like just today I didn't do accessory work in my training because I'm in a final three week phase where I'm going to peak out on week four on my squat, my deadlift, my press. I'm deliberately eliminating all that volume to put it all into the ability to hit those lifts and it feels like I'm not working because I have all this energy, like you suggested.

Brad Kearns: 35:04

Yeah, yeah, I mean this is, I'd say it's become a hugely controversial subject because we have so many longevity experts touting the amazing life extension benefits of fasting and restricting carbohydrates to the extent of ketogenic eating, and I've had a big recalibration in my own mindset and belief system and strategy to realize that if you're in that category of healthy, active, athletic person with good blood values and so forth, the restriction of calories for any reason is unwarranted and I'd much rather focus on eating more, moving more, training harder, recovering faster as my path to longevity.

Brad Kearns: 35:47

My new mantra, as listeners know, is perform, recover, perform, recover and that there is no role of fasting in that equation. And I appreciate this discussion about kind of the opposite strategy. Because you look healthy on the screen, man, you're putting up some big weights. I mean, how are we gonna measure your longevity and your basic health and fitness status right now? How about pulling a new PR on the deadlift? So whatever you're doing is working by definition, as opposed to starving yourself and heading to the gym and pulling some moderate weights or whatever the opposite would be.

Philip Pape: 36:25

Yeah, and I feel like when you get to that point of building that foundation, even if you are going to go into a calorie deficit and go into a fat loss phase, it tends to be so much easier and almost not feel like a diet.

Philip Pape: 36:38

I mean, I have a lot of clients in this situation where I say, look, let's not worry about cutting right now, let's build a foundation. What you're going to find after that is that a quote unquote diet, maybe the only diet you'll ever do, because you're trying to get to that whatever leanness that is that you're going to walk around, as even that isn't going to feel that hard. It might take 12 weeks and it might be at a moderate rate of loss and because you have this high metabolism, it's kind of easy to do and you're still going to eat mostly what you like. You know you have to cut out a few things here and there, um, and then you're done. So doesn't that sound great Like? If you're listening to that, just understand how powerful that is versus the yo-yo dieting always losing weight, losing muscle when you lose weight, because that's what happens when you don't train and then you get more and more skinny fat or fat over time, and then the metabolic issues wrap up, you know, as we age.

Brad Kearns: 37:25

Yeah, I wonder you've probably seen this too. When we were, you know, really first building the primal blueprint community and doing retreats and interacting with a lot of people, there was a lot of people that came to us with seemingly severe metabolic damage from a long history of yo-yo dieting and they'd come forth and report that, hey, I tried your eating style of the ancestral approach with meat, fish, fowl, eggs, vegetables, fruits, nuts and seeds. I don't eat any grains anymore, I don't eat processed sugars, I'm not drinking my Starbucks anymore and I'm still struggling to reduce excess body fat. And I wonder if you see that amongst your population, and are there some people that, just because of their past history or their current status of poor metabolic flexibility or whatever you want to call it, do they require some kind of a different approach? Or how do you deal with that?

Philip Pape: 38:17

Sure, I mean, there I'm, I'm like I might be that guy. So I was so, way back in the day I did at Atkins right, I remember Atkins even slim fast. I mean it's crazy. This stuff I tried over the years and then I joined the CrossFit community back in 2010. I did that for about eight years and I found out about the primal community and paleo and I actually did that. I have so many cookbooks still in my kitchen with paleo recipes, okay, and I was still overweight and I couldn't quite get there either.

Philip Pape: 38:51

It helped a little bit, right, it helped in terms of other aspects of health, but without that training stimulus, you're right, there was a big missing piece. That's the piece that I'm so passionate about now. That's why I put it at the top of the list and everything else kind of falls from that. The other thing is, what was I going to say about that? I think people get too hung up in the fact that certain foods whether you talk about the quality of food or the exact type of food or the macro are going to solve everything for them or vastly improve their metabolic health. I think even if you had the quote-unquote perfect diet, it is not enough. It is just not. You have to give yourself the chance to live like a human, a functional physical, pushing things around, human in the world.

Philip Pape: 39:35

I knew a guy, kevin Kevin. What's his name? Oh man, kevin McShann is that his last name? He's in a wheelchair, he's paralyzed from the waist down and one of his favorite things to do every day is lift weights. And he, he talks about it. So passion. He's like no one has an excuse. If you can I mean if you can move something on your body, you can be active and you should be active. Very inspiring guy, guy.

Brad Kearns: 39:57

Right, there's, it's within reach of everyone and, interestingly, it doesn't take uh, huge chunks of time to dabble and and and progress down this road of being a competent person who does resistance exercise. So it starts there. Diet is not enough. Love it, yeah. And how about compare contrast to the widespread pursuit of steady state cardio in with the goal of weight loss? You know what I'm going to have to say about it because I said it on your show, but is there, do you have some insights about the difference between a protocol that has strength training, some brief, explosive activity like sprinting, a foundation of, you know, comfortably placed movement versus the people who are getting that sweaty red face climbing the stairs for 45 minutes, however many days a week, at the gym, or going to these difficult classes like the morning spin class and all that thing as their main and perhaps sole pursuit of fitness.

Philip Pape: 41:02

Steady state cardio yeah, there's a couple angles I could come at this, one from. One is the fact that you can find thousands, if not millions, of people who don't do any of that type of cardio and have amazing health. I mean, if that's not proof, you know people who lift, people who don't do any of that type of cardio and have amazing health. I mean, if that's not proof, you know people who lift, people who walk, they eat right. You know, like you said, they might, they might do occasional activity, they might play sports. You know they have fun, but they are not doing that. I know what you refer to as metronomic, day in, day out cardio. That that's one. That's one answer I have. Uh, another one is just clients that I've worked with, especially women, who have what they think is an adrenal failure or an issue with their cortisol. They have hormonal issues. They might be as young as 27 or in peri and postmenopause, and it's often that they're just doing too much, that the stress is compounding what's going on with their bodies. And when I tell them let's just drop all of that, I mean I like to take a like eliminate all the cardio approach first add in the lifting and then start to add in the other things until you hit a equilibrium, a nice equilibrium, right. You'll know when you've gone past that point.

Philip Pape: 42:16

And I had a client who she thought she would have to be on medications forever. And um, she was a massage therapist, so she was active like seven, eight hours a day working with people, and she was going to the gym five or six days a week. She was doing Peloton, she was hiking, she was doing a lot. And I got her training three days a week for about half an hour, lifting really heavy. And they say, no, you shouldn't put uh, women who have adrenal issues and high stress on heavy lifting, don't do that. It's just like when they talk about autoimmune conditions. Don't lift heavy.

Philip Pape: 42:46

Quite the contrary, the evidence supports lifting heavy for just about any population. And I think you know this, brad like and by heavy I mean 60 to 90% of your max. You know like, whatever you can lift for the, for one single rep of, let's say, a deadlift or squat, 60 to 90% is a really solid range to lift in. And what happened to this client is she came off her medications because her stress dropped significantly without any other changes to her lifestyle. It was mainly the movement Like you're talking about. It was just too much cardio. That's just two angles I come at it from. The whole sprinting thing is actually a little bit newer to me, to be honest, and like I said before we started recording, I'm telling everybody about it because I'm doing it myself too. I just did my couple first sprints over the last few weeks.

Brad Kearns: 43:32

Nice. Yeah, it's a difficult one to ramp up with, because most of us stopped from our last season in middle school, soccer or high school or what have you. And then we know from research that we lose the anaerobic explosive muscle fibers at a much greater rate from aging than we do. Our aerobic conditioning and for some reason, the fitness population at large are getting their cardio in but, you know, grossly deficient in anything that resembles near maximum effort.

Philip Pape: 44:09

Yeah, and I wonder, in the lifting community specifically because I've talked to a bunch of guys since you came on the show community, specifically, because I've talked to a bunch of guys since you came on the show there are different pockets of knowledge and understanding. When it comes to quote unquote conditioning, because it's always been a hot topic with the old adage of, like cardio is going to kill your gains, right, and then there was the counter argument of no, no, no, in reality you can actually do a decent amount of cardio, up to like half the amount you lift, without detriment. The question is, what do you mean by cardio? Because that's a very broad umbrella, and so I start with the lifting and I say, okay, lifting itself is, um, is, is really a form of cardio. Um, your heart rate is constantly spiking when you're doing heavy, especially when you're lifting heavy.

Philip Pape: 44:52

I can show you on my Apple watch you know, look at this guy guy, he went on a jog with a lot of stoplights, I guess it looks like that you know every spike is a rep of of my deadlift and it pops up to you know 130, 135, like actually right around the fat max heart rate, believe it or not kind of interestingly.

Philip Pape: 45:08

I don't know if there's a correlation there, um, but the cumulative amount of um getting your heart rate high plus the epoch right, the post, the post-active post, uh, you know, I'm trying to say exercise post, uh, whatever the, the acronym.

Brad Kearns: 45:21

Excess post exercise. Excess post yeah, oxygen consumption is uh. The concept is that you you burn more calories after the workout and that's where you get the really strong driver for fat reduction. It's not the eight 700 calories you burned at the workout, but it's the next 24 hours that matters a lot.

Philip Pape: 45:42

Yeah, and I still use that, the old term afterburner effect, and you know well, that's, that's not real, but actually there is, there is, it is still a thing. Um, so, there, so just lifting alone is going to get you somewhat well-conditioned. And then I go to the next step and say okay, does your strength training program include speed work or enough volume that that also increases your work capacity? So that takes you to another level of conditioning. So, for example, um, the West side barbell guys like Louie Simmons, the conjugate style program, now those guys were like big enhanced pot body, uh, power lifters. But the principles that they used and I don't have to go into all the training principles of conjugate, but they had two days a week that were max effort and two days a week that were dynamic effort. And on the dynamic effort days they would use accommodating resistance. So they would use bands or chains. Um, if you don't have bands or chains, you just use vault, you speed. So you do a lot of sets of low reps sub-maximally. So rather than doing, say, three sets of five heavy squats, you might do 10 sets of two at 70% right, and you're taking 30 or 60 seconds rest instead of two, three, four minutes rest and you are exploding on that concentric as powerfully as you can, where the plates are rattling, like that's a good indicator that you've done it right and that builds work capacity. It builds the movement pattern. You know it's a developmental variation for the main pattern when you're not without taxing your central nervous system with the load, and then you've got conditioning as well. So I like that approach.

Philip Pape: 47:22

If you're a lifter, then I say, okay, what else do we need? Walking, that's the next form of cardio. We've got to get to that. Eight to 10,000 steps is usually solid for a lot of people. It's very practical. If you want to be a 20,000 step a day guy, go for it, but you know eight or 10. And then it's the big question, brad, what do we do? Do we need anything else? And so when my clients are in fat loss, they're like should I get a little cardio boost? And what I've recommended up to this point is some form of medium steady state, like on a bike or pushing a prowler, but not running, cause I'm a big fan of, you know, recovery involving using the concentric and not the eccentric right. You do all those, those um squats, those air squats and CrossFit. That is that you're going to be sore.

Brad Kearns: 48:04

So the eccentric. Uh just define that a little bit in case in case. People are uh falling off a bit.

Philip Pape: 48:12

Sure, yeah, yeah, I know it's, it's the, I'll guess. I guess I'll say the pushing up part of the movement, the contractile part of it, so, like in a squat, it's the coming up part of the squat, whereas going down that's the concentric. That's the concentric.

Brad Kearns: 48:23

Yeah, the concentric is lifting up and the eccentric-. The eccentric is like when the muscle is lengthening and shortening at the same time, or something. That's why you get sore. Is that the definition?

Philip Pape: 48:39

Yeah, yeah, I should get a better way to describe it, but yes, I think of like running, for example. The concentric is when you push off the ground, the eccentric is when you land.

Brad Kearns: 48:48

The eccentric is when you land. Yeah, so when you're landing people, like going down a hill, and you see your quads tighten or tense but they're also being forced to absorb the impact, so they're kind of they're flexing but they're shortening at the same time. Same with lowering down from the deadlift is lifted off the ground and then you lower. The eccentric part is what causes that micro tears in the muscle and soreness, and I believe that's exclusively so, like you can't get sore doing concentric things, only the eccentric.

Philip Pape: 49:25

Right, because the eccentric is what controls the resistance against gravity.

Brad Kearns: 49:29

Right, so that's what leads to the muscle producing force and then tearing and oh right you're, you're absorbing gravitational force while you're flexing the muscle, as opposed to um not absorbing the gravitational force.

Philip Pape: 49:43

Yeah, yeah, which is why I like say swimming or biking or pushing or pulling a sled as forms of quote unquote cardio, um, but, but.

Philip Pape: 49:53

But, like we talked about before, I liked the idea of sprinting as opposed to hit. Um, I used to. I used to be into the Tabata style CrossFit hit, which was like the inverse of what you you know. It would be like a two to one work to rest ratio, and then I kind of evolved toward a maybe one-to-one, but I like the one-to-six that you talk about with sprinting as well. Regardless, very few of my clients do much of that cardio anyway, because they find they don't need to and most people don't quote-unquote like doing this kind of cardio great reason is for recovery from the other workouts.

Brad Kearns: 50:31

You're going to be bashing your muscles with the ultimate eccentric behavior of running down a paved road especially. You mentioned Tabata, which is a popular interval training protocol, but what's so funny about that? Has been widely misappropriated and abused, because the original research with the Japanese speed skaters was it was a four-minute workout. It was 20 seconds on, 10-second rest, 20 seconds work. Or is that the opposite? Excuse me, 20 seconds work, 10 seconds rest?

Philip Pape: 51:05

Yeah, two to one, yeah, yeah.

Brad Kearns: 51:06

Yeah, two to one work to rest yeah, and then you're done in four minutes. But you go to the local neighborhood fitness club and they say 9 am Tabata class, and so they'll do like all kinds of crap with this two to one work to rest ratio, first with your bicycle pedaling, and then you get off and do some pole work or whatever. But the workout's meant to be an extremely challenging, high-intensity interval session and it's over in four minutes, besides warm-up, cool-down and all that stuff. So it's a great protocol, unless you extend it out to an hour of CrossFit where you're doing Tabata, box jumps and rope climbs and upside-down push-ups and things that get people injured when they get fatigued at the end.

Philip Pape: 51:50

And then you do grace, you do you know where you're doing like 30 power cleans with 135. I was there, I did it for eight years. It didn't do anything for me other than give me some injuries, some tweaks. I was miserable most of the time, although I love the community, and I touched a barbell for the first time, which was great, but I didn't learn proper form until after I stopped doing CrossFit and just focused on on training. Um, and that's important for people to know, because I think I think it's okay to be I don't want to say judgmental, but I try to discourage people from doing those things at all, like I'm not sure that there is any positive, even when you have the community aspect. I think there's other ways to do that. There are some really good group traditional strength training programs now where you can get in a group but actually train with progressive overload.

Philip Pape: 52:38

Do it low and slow, take your rest periods, have your recovery. That's what I would encourage people to look for.

Brad Kearns: 52:44

I'll tell you my CrossFit strategy that was very successful for me is you bail out at around the one third or the halfway mark, cause I've done a grand total of three or four CrossFit classes in my life, visiting someone. Hey, let's try this out. And there's so many good aspects of the community and the, the, the philosophy of broad-based functional fitness and all that great stuff, as opposed to training for a marathon. It's the run fit club where we show up and we jog six miles every day. We're CrossFit's, building all these skills. But, like at the one third to halfway mark, I was good and I'm a fit person. But you know they're saying, okay, we're gonna do 15 pull-ups and then come over here and do the box jump and then climb the rope. All right, I did it high five. And then they go okay, now we're gonna do a set of eight and then break it down to four and then we're gonna do five and I'm like, what the F are you talking about? I just did 15 pull-ups. That's a personal best for the year.

Brad Kearns: 53:42

So I think the fatiguing aspect of a lot of traditional fitness programming is the big problem, not the workout design so much as when we're talking about elite, high-performing athletes, especially the people we watch in the Olympics. They're not blasting these workouts to the point where they're on their hands and knees and having shitty times in the last four reps. They are very consistent and they're almost always working well within their capacity. We will watch Gabby Thomas collapsing on the ground after running a mile time trial, since she's the Olympic 200 meter champion, and that was not her cup of tea. But even then she got up if you want to watch the video and did four straightaways of 150 builds or whatever. So we're socialized, I think, to struggle and suffer and CrossFit is extremely to blame there there, as well as the endurance community to blame rather than a properly organized training session where you don't walk out of there staggering to the nearest pint of Ben and Jerry's.

Philip Pape: 54:41

Yeah, and I think it comes down to what are you trying to accomplish and if that is not getting you what you're trying to accomplish.

Brad Kearns: 54:46

I want to crush myself. Man, that's my goal.

Philip Pape: 54:48

Exactly. Yeah, I want to be miserable and I want you know, I want to be injured.

Brad Kearns: 54:52

I want to be miserable.

Philip Pape: 54:53

Yeah, and I'll tell you if. If your goal is to get your VO two max up, you could do that with lifting and walking and if you want to get a little bit higher, apparently sprinting which, by the way, I'm going to do an official VO two max test. It's been a long time I got when I'm at the peak of my bulk and I'm at my heaviest and I've barely started sprinting. That's going to be my baseline. I'm going to report back after about three months, once I've lost about 15, 20 pounds and have been sprinting for a while. We'll see.

Philip Pape: 55:21

I'll share that data with you guys, Listeners.

Brad Kearns: 55:23

Vo2 max is a volume of oxygen per milliliter per kilogram of body weight. So you're going to be gaming the test. Milliliter per kilogram of body weight? So you're gonna be gaming the test. If you drop 10 pounds, your VO2 max score will skyrocket.

Philip Pape: 55:34

I don't care, man, no, I'm just yeah, yeah, no, it's great, we can normalize it you can I? Bet, you can normalize it by body weight.

Brad Kearns: 55:42

And also well, you have maximum volume period and then, and that's, I don't think that would be affected by anything. Whether you're lifting weights or sprinting, I mean you kind of have. That's why VO2 max is largely genetically determined. It's just how much oxygen can you consume when you're exercising at high intensity. But I'm also annoyed at how the fascination and the hype around VO2 max is like the ultimate anti-aging marker and it is. If your VO2 max is terrible, then you're in bad shape, son, and you better get your butt together and get out there and move your body and work your heart and lungs. However, once you have a competent VO2 max, which I'm certain that you'll have from your lifetime commitment to fitness, it's not such a big deal and arguably we might want to negotiate for carrying around more muscle mass as hitting another important fitness pillar that directly compromises your VO2 max potential.

Philip Pape: 56:42

Yeah, which then brings up another issue, or not an issue, but a curiosity people might have is how important a lot of these health metrics are Resting heart rate lipids. A lot of these health metrics are resting heart rate lipids, hrv. Especially in the context of your current periodization phase and the body mass and muscle mass you're carrying around, it is really important. Like BMI, for example, is a totally worthless statistic unless you're just looking at a population right, and we know that new metrics like body roundness are more relevant. And, honestly, just taking a tape measure of your waist, you know you can kind of that's one of the best proxies for body fat right there. Anyway, it's very simple and that's the kind of data I like working with clients on, where it's data, but it's easy to measure, it's easy to track. Where I was going with that is that.

Philip Pape: 57:27

Going back to those clients who are highly muscled but also overweight, you will still see health metrics that are not where they need to be because they're not walking enough. For example, I've had clients who are lawyers. They sit around all day. They get 3,000 steps. They're highly muscled. We don't change anything except their steps. They go up to 6,000, 7,000, and their resting heart rate starts to decline and a lot of their health markers, according to blood work, improve just from the walking. And so that's just just, you know, more proof of the power of being an active person in general and not having to do it via miserable cardio or chronic cardio.

Brad Kearns: 58:05

Is 3,000. Pretty crappy, is that like a pretty inactive person? So you will. Even if you're just going from the parking garage to the office building and then you go down the hall to use the bathroom and then you walk around the house, are you going to get up to like one or two or 3,000 steps with doing almost, you know, minimal exercise?

Philip Pape: 58:27

So if I think of my own self working at home, if I was recovering from surgery, and I could hardly do anything?

Brad Kearns: 58:34

no, I've been in that state. I probably still got like 1,500 steps.

Philip Pape: 58:37

I don't know you can almost not, unless you're just sitting in one spot all day, which I suppose there are people who do that. I mean, this guy was lifting weights, so just from the lifting sessions, three days a week, he was probably getting 3,000 steps from his lifting session or 2,000. Was lifting weights, so just from the lifting sessions, he, you know, three days a week, he was probably getting 3000 steps from his lifting session or 2000. Really, wow, maybe 2000. Um, I pace, I pace between my sets to get steps while I'm working out.

Philip Pape: 59:01

So that's a good trick for people to have it stack. But going from three to six and then six to eight or nine, we know that that seven to nine is really the sweet spot right, Based on the mortality literature, on a massive step change in your health. And that's not inaccessible for most people. Seven to nine, it's not crazy.

Brad Kearns: 59:18

If it is, then we got problems and we got to talk about it and we got to set you up with with with Philip and take, do that intake form and say what the heck is going on here.

Brad Kearns: 59:26

Um, I mean back to the message of the book born to walk like this is a whole separate category from your fitness objectives, and your to-do list is that we are obligated to be in movement throughout the day. It's a no-brainer, it's like on the same category as sleeping. And then, oh, do you want to have a high quality, fit, active, energetic life? Then let's talk about fitness. But I kind of put that in the given category rather than oh, okay, I have to do some weightlifting twice a week and I got to.

Philip Pape: 59:56

I got to walk like no kidding, yeah, if I have a client who is not walking and they should be. And here's the thing with coaching right Is that you can't force people to do things, but you can try to frame it in a way that shows them it's inevitable that they need to do this for their own health. I do think, like the training consistently and the walking are must do's, no excuses. If you can't do them, then something else has got to change, Whether that's a time audit, getting something else off your plate, eliminating, delegating on and on, it's a time management thing for a lot of folks to be honest.

Philip Pape: 1:00:36

That's your excuse and there's no excuse. You can do it with your dog. You can do it with your kids. You can do it walking around the house. How many of you are watching Netflix or scrolling social for at least an hour a day?

Brad Kearns: 1:00:52

That hour, go ahead and scroll social but walk while you're doing it like, don't make an excuse. Yeah, it's like saying I I don't have the budget for uh nutritious foods. And then I have my uh b-rad nutrition guide where they I rank the world's most nutritious foods by by category. And we have sardines up there, we have liver up there, which is dirt cheap compared to buying a steak or even even a, and so there's numerous foods that are among the highest on the planet and they're pennies compared to driving through Chick-fil-A. I just lost another sponsor. Sorry, but you know there is budget concerns with people and time concerns too, and I've heard from those people and they've given me some plenty direct feedback that I strongly appreciate and empathize with people that are really jam-packed and we don't want to cut into sleep with nonsense social media badgering like just get up at 4.30 and do it man, no excuses, no, not going to happen, not going to be successful.

Brad Kearns: 1:01:47

But there's that time management layered underneath where, oh yeah, I forgot about my Netflix hour to three hours every evening. Can I pinch into that?

Philip Pape: 1:01:58

Yeah, it's funny. I just in my Facebook group yesterday we posted the question like what's one of the what's one of the most challenging things about your fitness? And somebody said getting up at 3 am for cardio? And I replied brutal and I replied well, I see two problems with this. Do you want me to say what they are?

Brad Kearns: 1:02:16

Cardio and getting up at 3.30? Exactly. Oh my goodness.

Philip Pape: 1:02:21

But then to be fair, he said, well, I'm just walking on an incline. I'm like okay, well, that's a little better than when I thought what you meant with cardio. But I'm still saying you're getting up at 3 am. I hope you're going to bed at like 7 pm or something.

Brad Kearns: 1:02:32

Hey, that's a pretty disciplined person right there, someone who gets up in the dark and walks on an incline. They're going to succeed with a little tweaking. So before we wrap up, like if someone just wants to get started and drift over in that direction of being a competent resistance training person that's building muscle and looking toward that longevity goal, what's a baby step one can take if we haven't gone near that side of the gym over there with the bros clanking the plates?

Philip Pape: 1:03:03

Yeah, I would really love for somebody to have access to a barbell and I could give them the baby steps from that. This is the challenge, Brad, is people. This is one of the excuses you get is I don't have access to this or that, or my gym doesn't have this, or I have home gym. So really it's starting with what you do have access to right and not making any excuses, and then working on the main movement patterns squatting, picking things up, engine pressing and everyone's at different strength levels. Everyone has different equipment access. Obviously, if you reach out to me, I'm happy to give you a free program template or guidance based on what you have, but that's really what it comes down to.

Philip Pape: 1:03:41

We we could do a whole podcast about progressive overload and training session. You know training and all of that, but it's really three days a week usually is sufficient for most people shouldn't take more than half an hour to 45 minutes when you're beginner beginner and what we're looking at is, uh, fairly heavy, fairly low reps. You know we're talking four to six, maybe up to eight to 12, you know, in that range of reps, maybe three sets of three or four exercises, a full body, and you do that. You take a long, you take long rest periods. By long I mean at least two or three minutes. These aren't the 32nd circuit training. You're not super setting, You're just one exercise and then the next, uh, three sets each, and then you take a day off and you do it again three days a week and that's it Like. It's not at all like anything that you guys think of with F45 or CrossFit or you know the running club Right.

Philip Pape: 1:04:34

That's just to keep it very high level, brad.

Brad Kearns: 1:04:37

That's great. I mean you can probably utilize the machines if you're completely incompetent with a bar and you want to learn carefully and slowly. I saw people getting trained with PVC pipes with the experts that came to our primal con retreats and it was like you know, if you do 20 reps with a PVC pipe on deadlift, you're going to feel it, even if you're pretty fit, like you don't have to load up right away and bring in injury risk. I would hope.

Philip Pape: 1:05:09

Yeah, actually it's funny. I was just talking to another lifter about the concept of progressive overload, um. I had a podcast in fact today's episode that just came out. Whenever this is coming out it's it's called um the only strength standard you need, and it was the idea that the overarching principle of getting strong is that your body needs stress. And by stress I don't mean chronic stress, I mean it needs a stimulus, it needs to recover and then it will stress. And by stress I don't mean chronic stress, I mean it needs a stimulus, it needs to recover and then it will adapt. But the stress has to be enough. Just like in your thermostat it's only gonna kick in when the house is too cold or too hot. You need to push and challenge yourself just enough so that you adapt for the next time. So you come in on Monday, you squat, you do three sets of five, at whatever weight, I don't care, maybe it feels super easy. You go in on Wednesday. I want you to add a certain amount of pounds.

Philip Pape: 1:05:56

Maybe it's five pounds, maybe it's two, If you're not super strong. Maybe it's 10, maybe it's 20. If you're just a 20-year-old male testosterone coursing through your veins and then do that each session, At some point it's going to start to feel heavy, but at some point it's going to start to feel heavy, but you also are going to be able to keep going up for quite a while. A beginner can double or triple their strength in just a few months.

Brad Kearns: 1:06:18

You know the legend of Milo of Croton, the great, legendary ancient Greek Olympic athlete. He was undefeated as a wrestler, one of the greatest Olympians of all time. In the old days in Greek history, he gained his strength by raising cattle, and so he'd pick up the calf when it was born, and then he'd pick up the calf every day for the rest of its life until he's picking up whatever a 400 pound animal. But yeah, that progressive overload. That's the. Yes, I got to get better at that man, because I'm kind of working with the same weight on my hex bar deadlift, because I have some fears about injuries. I've strained my back before and then I'm performing a recovering in my sprint workouts my bread and butter. But it's a really important point to remember that the body loves that challenge adaptation and that comes when you extend out and get toward your limit.

Philip Pape: 1:07:12

Yeah, and you can do that with anything. Like you mentioned machines. There are obviously different tools for different jobs, some more efficient than others, depending on your goal, and again, we can talk about those details, but doing something and progressing on it is going to be helpful. It's funny you mentioned the low back thing. A lot of people do have fears about injury and I've known so many folks. I can think of one guy in particular um, he's an engineer, a guy from India, and kind of very skinny, you know, kind of skinny fat if you will. About 40 years old. Um eats a lot of Indian food, which delicious, but you know the, the macros aren't always optimal for for building, and he had really bad back pain. And this is super common with desk jockeys, right?

Philip Pape: 1:07:55

And I've experienced it myself, just really sore back pain. I said why don't you try deadlifting? I'll come to my? He lived nearby. I said come to my home gym and we'll just do it together. I'll show you how to do it right and then I'll give you a simple progression. And he started doing that and all his pain is gone.

Philip Pape: 1:08:16

Okay, and I'm not. I don't mean this to say, oh, this is a miracle thing, because your particular back issue may be specific, but many people have seen pain go away in their joints and their back just from lifting weights. It sounds counterintuitive to folks that don't quite get it, like with the deadlift. Deadlift is one of the best tools to improve back pain. You got to do it right and you're going to have good form, but I'm super passionate about that, yeah.

Brad Kearns: 1:08:33

It's great for your joint health. Yeah, you're getting the blood flowing, you're getting the discs lubricated. You're working toward a stronger, more resilient body. So whatever got you that back pain in the first place? Now you're a stronger guy. You're going to ward it off.

Philip Pape: 1:08:47

And would you rather have a strong bad back than a weak bad back?

Brad Kearns: 1:08:50

That's what I'm about to say Philip Pape, everybody from Wits and Weights podcast, tell us how to connect with you on your Facebook group and the other places that we should engage.

Philip Pape: 1:09:01

Yeah, I mean on Facebook. We can put the link in, but it's called Wits and Weights. On Facebook, my podcast is Wits and Weights and on Instagram at Wits and Weights, so pretty easy to find me.

Brad Kearns: 1:09:11

And you offer this remote service for consultation and programming.

Philip Pape: 1:09:18

Yeah, I do online nutrition coaching, so it's really about fat loss, building muscle, all of that and, again, you can go to witsandweightscom learn all about that, or hit me up. And what I really want you to do, though, is listen to my podcast first and get the basics and understand my philosophy, and learn first before, because I want you to have that foundation, because then you're going to really take off and level up.

Brad Kearns: 1:09:40

Love it. Nice little assignment. Okay, first people go listen and then reach out Come inform man, Bring your A game to fill up when you finally reach out and connect. Thank you so much for spending the time. I love what you're doing.

Philip Pape: 1:09:58

Keep it up and thanks for listening. Everybody. All right, that was my conversation with Brad Kearns on his Be Rad podcast, and what I hope you take away from this discussion is how fundamentally important muscle is as a foundation for any successful physique transformation. The typical approach most people take is they restrict calories, they add in cardio, they white knuckle through hunger, and that is what doesn't work long-term, because it does not address the root cause. When you build muscle first, you create a metabolic environment where fat loss becomes just so much easier, dramatically easier. Your body becomes a glucose disposal machine. Your hormones work with you instead of against you. Your hunger signals normalize, and I've seen this pattern play out hundreds of times with clients those who focus on strength training first and diet second consistently achieve better, more sustainable results than those who do it the other way around. And this is especially true for people in their 30s, in their 40s, 50s and beyond, when natural muscle loss accelerates.

Philip Pape: 1:10:59

Remember, muscle's not just about looking good or even being strong, though those are fantastic benefits. Your muscle tissue is highly metabolically active. It acts as your body's primary glucose sink. It's a sink for the carbs that you eat and it creates the conditions for optimal fat metabolism. So the more muscle you carry, the more resilient your metabolism becomes against diet fluctuations, aging, hormonal changes, all of it.

Philip Pape: 1:11:25

So if you are struggling with stubborn fat, if you're hitting plateaus despite doing all the things, I encourage you to flip that around. Focus on building strength first. If you've never doneaus, despite doing all the things, I encourage you to flip that around. Focus on building strength first. If you've never done it before, building muscle and watch how much easier fat loss then becomes when you have that foundation in place. All right, if you enjoyed this episode again, all I ask is you hit follow on the podcast to catch every episode when they come out and then go follow Brad's excellent podcast. Be Rad with Brad Kearns wherever you listen to your podcast. All right, until next time, keep using your wits, lifting those weights, and remember the secret to lasting fat loss isn't found in restriction. It's found through building building muscle, that is. I'll talk to you next time here on the Wits and Weights Podcast.

10 Fat Loss Myths the Fitness Industry Keeps Selling (Isaiah Mitchell) | Ep 313

Get the other part of this conversation on Isaiah’s podcast “Fat Loss Forever” to hear Philip expose 10 more myths!

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Think fasting fixes everything? That carbs are the enemy? Or that intuitive eating is where everyone should start?

You’re not alone. You're being misled by an industry built on half-truths.

Today, Isaiah Mitchell, the owner of Relentless Pursuit Coaching and host of the "Fat Loss Forever" podcast, dismantles 10 of the most persistent fat loss myths keeping you stuck. From the fasting hype and cardio obsession to hormone blame and the lie that clean eating must be perfect, he brings the science and the nuance to help you stop spinning your wheels. 

Catch the companion episode of this two-part special collaboration on Isaiah’s podcast where Philip breaks down 10 other myths, including metabolism, fasted cardio, and fat loss over 40.

Main Takeaways:

• Intermittent fasting isn't magic, it only works if it helps you eat fewer calories

• Intuitive eating is a skill you earn, not how you start

• Cardio alone won't get you lean, strength training builds the body you want

• Carbs, sugar, and seed oils aren't the enemy, context and calories are king

• Your dream body won't fix your life, mindset and habits matter most

Timestamps:

03:02 – Myth 1: Intermittent fasting is a magic fat loss method
11:25 – Myth 2: Intuitive eating is the best place to start
15:47 – Myth 3: Cardio is the key to fat loss
22:45 – Myth 4: Carbs make you gain fat
31:40 – Myth 5: Lifting makes women bulky
35:15 – Myth 6: You must eat clean 100% of the time
41:10 – Myth 7 and 8: Sugar and seed oils are toxic
51:01 – Myth 9: Hormones are the reason you're not losing fat
54:33 – Myth 10: Your dream body will solve everything
1:00:01 – Outro

Get the other part of this conversation on Isaiah’s podcast “Fat Loss Forever” to hear Philip expose 10 more myths!

Why You’re Still Struggling to Lose Fat (Even Though You Think You’re Doing Everything Right)

Ever feel like you’ve tried everything the fitness industry recommends—fasting, clean eating, cutting carbs—and yet you’re still not seeing the results you want? You’re not alone. In this episode, Isaiah Mitchell and I break down 10 of the most persistent fat loss myths that are being pushed by influencers, outdated gurus, and even some well-meaning coaches.

We go beyond surface-level advice and explain what actually works when it comes to building a lean, strong, sustainable physique—without the frustration and wasted time.

Myth #1: Intermittent fasting is the magic solution for fat loss

There’s nothing inherently magical about skipping breakfast. Intermittent fasting can help some people eat less—and that’s why it works. But it doesn’t bypass energy balance, boost metabolism, or trigger massive fat loss unless you’re still in a calorie deficit. In fact, some people—especially women—may experience disrupted sleep, cravings, and hormone issues from rigid fasting routines. If it works for your schedule and hunger patterns, great. But it’s not a shortcut.

Myth #2: Intuitive eating works for beginners

Listening to your body sounds great in theory. But most people’s internal cues are broken from years of dieting, binging, and emotional eating. Intuition is a skill that’s earned after you build structure, awareness, and consistent habits. If your “intuition” keeps leading you to snacks and overeating, it might be time to learn how to regulate that first.

Myth #3: Cardio is the best way to burn fat

You burn more calories during cardio, but it adapts quickly. Your body becomes more efficient, burns fewer calories for the same effort, and you risk increasing hunger. Resistance training, on the other hand, builds muscle, increases metabolic rate, and helps you shape your body. Cardio has its place for cardiovascular health—but it’s not the best physique tool.

Myth #4: Carbs make you fat

This one refuses to die. Carbs aren’t inherently fattening—they’re your body’s preferred energy source. Excess calories make you fat, whether they come from fat, carbs, or protein. If anything, carbs support training performance, recovery, hormone balance, and even better sleep. Demonizing carbs is lazy thinking. Context matters.

Myth #5: Lifting weights makes women bulky

Building noticeable muscle takes years of consistent training, eating, and recovery—especially for women. Most of the “bulk” new lifters feel is due to fat covering muscle, temporary inflammation, or water retention. The truth is, muscle creates the shape you want. You’re not going to “accidentally” get too muscular, no matter how hard you try.

Myth #6: You must eat clean 100% of the time

Not only is this unnecessary—it’s counterproductive. Clean eating perfectionism often leads to binge/restrict cycles, guilt, and burnout. You can (and should) include 10-20% of your calories from foods you enjoy, without fear. Progress comes from consistency, not perfection.

Myth #7 & #8: Sugar and seed oils are toxic

The dose makes the poison. Moderate amounts of sugar, especially in a nutrient-dense diet, are not harmful. The same goes for seed oils, which have been unfairly demonized based on rodent studies or biased social media influencers. Real human studies consistently show no harmful effects—and sometimes benefits—when total diet quality and calorie intake are controlled.

Myth #9: It’s your hormones

Hormones play a role, but they rarely explain fat gain on their own. Sleep, stress, low muscle mass, under-eating, and poor recovery habits all affect your hormones. And guess what? Those are things you can work on. Blaming hormones too early often gives away your power to change. Test if you need to—but don’t assume hormones are the problem if you’re skipping the basics.

Myth #10: Your dream body will fix everything

This is the big one. If you think reaching a goal weight will solve all your problems, think again. Body image, self-worth, and sustainable change all require inner work. If you lose the weight without changing your mindset or habits, you’re going to struggle to keep it off. This is why identity and behavior change matter more than just hitting a number on the scale.

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Then hit “Follow” and you’re good to go!

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Transcript

Philip Pape: 0:01

Have you tried intermittent fasting? Have you tried clean eating 100% of the time? Have you tried cutting carbs completely because you heard they make you fat? If you have, you're among the millions of people who might be struggling to lose fat, despite doing what the fitness industry says you should do, and these are among the many myths out there that could be holding you back. Today, we are exposing 10 of those myths with my guest, isaiah Mitchell, who transformed his own physique by losing 100 pounds and keeping it off for nearly a decade. We're going to share what works instead of what's being peddled by industry and influencers, such as why intuitive eating might be sabotaging your progress, the truth about hormones, about seed oils, and why that dream body might not solve all your problems after all. We want you to stop wasting time on strategies that don't work and focusing on the pillars that do.

Philip Pape: 1:03

Welcome to Wits and Weights, the show that helps you build a strong, healthy physique using evidence, engineering and efficiency. I'm your host, philip Pape, and today I'm bringing you a special collaboration with Isaiah Mitchell, owner of Relentless Pursuit Coaching and host of the Fat Loss Forever podcast. I want you to go follow that right now, because we are doing a collaboration in both feeds. Isaiah has a really powerful story because he lost 100 pounds and has maintained that loss for nearly a decade. But it was only after years of losing, regaining the same 20 pounds you know the yo-yo diet cycle that he learned the real science of fat loss, the inner psychological work required for change, just like we love to talk about on this show.

Philip Pape: 1:51

So today we're discussing 10 fat loss myths that are being sold to you being sold to me and Isaiah by the fitness industry that you want to be aware of if you want to actually make progress and stop spinning your wheels. But wait, there's more, because we're going to discuss 10 more myths over on his podcast, fat Loss Forever, where he dropped an episode and had me on to discuss some myths about broken metabolisms, fasted, cardio, body fat building, muscle over 40, among others. But in today's episode you are going to learn from him about strategies like intermittent fasting, the truth about carbs and sugar, and why even achieving your dream body might not solve everything. Isaiah, welcome to the show.

Isaiah Mitchell: 2:26

Thank you, brother. Thank you, happy to be on, and it's crazy that, just with even these 20 myths that we've been able to come up with relatively quickly like me and you had our list put together so so fast and there's still so many more like we could, we could make this, you know, bi-monthly collaboration until the end of the year and we'd probably still have some, uh, some myths to sift through. But, yeah, I'm excited to get into this, especially, uh, the deeper psychological stuff which is really going to be, uh, more so for our last one on the, the dream body.

Philip Pape: 2:59

but, yeah, I'm excited to dive in and happy to be here yeah, and I think, coming from this lens of myths and you're right, because we chatted back and forth and you came up with 10 in a minute and I said, oh, I like a lot of those. You took the ones I would have come up with first, but let me just think for another minute. Okay, here's 10 more. No big deal.

Philip Pape: 3:17

It's a good lens, because the confusion and the copious amount of information on social media and the internet is often the first thing that makes people overwhelmed. Right? They come to us as a coach or in a Facebook group and they're like what do I do? There's just this guy's saying seed oils are bad. This guy says I should fast. What the heck do I do? So let's start with one of the biggest ones of all, man, which is intermittent fasting. Is this magic pill for everything? It solves everything. It solves everything. It gives you mental clarity, it helps you lose weight. It's autophagy is going to clean up your cells. You're going to live forever. What's the reality, man?

Isaiah Mitchell: 3:54

Yeah, and what you said. There is a great place to start, because I think one of the most egregious parts about intermittent fasting is all of the ridiculous claims that get attached to it, and a lot of it's true for sure, but not to the degree that it's being sold to you. It's very, very largely blown out of proportion. And if we could just kind of summarize the myth in a sentence, it's intermittent fasting melts fat, boosts your metabolism and bypasses the rules of calories, bypasses the laws of thermodynamics. And now the reality here is intermittent fasting works because it helps you eat less. It's really not any more complex than that. Not because there's something magical about fasting in and of itself, and in my opinion, fasting tends to just lead to a worse relationship with food, and I really think it should be reserved for spiritual practices for you detaching from food and learning to just sit with yourself, learning how to be bored and not fill in that hole constantly with food. That's where I think the magic of fasting really shines is separating ourselves from food. Now to get into the bit of the evidence in 2020, we had a randomized control trial published in JAMA Internal Medicine and they found no significant weight loss benefit for the fasting group compared to the regular meal timing group, and this is just one of hundreds of studies we have showing no benefit for fat loss or even autophagy, which is another thing that gets thrown out there in the whole fasting thing. The thing to understand about autophagy is it's not just an on or off switch. This is something that's always happening in the background. So when they equated calories and protein between the two groups group that ate all day, group that did intermittent fasting their results were exactly the same. All day group that did intermittent fasting their results were exactly the same. And in fact, some of the fasting participants actually lost a little bit more muscle mass, which is absolutely what we don't want.

Isaiah Mitchell: 6:13

So here is what intermittent fasting does. This is the truth. It helps some people keyword some people control their hunger by shortening their eating window. So if you lock yourself into I'm only allowed to eat during this time for some people you're going to end up eating less calories and then you lose weight.

Isaiah Mitchell: 6:35

But secondly, it can really help you create some structure and boundaries around meals and if you're someone that's just getting started, I don't think this is an absolutely terrible idea, but it's definitely not the solution to all of your problems and for some people it may improve insulin sensitivity and digestion, especially if you're someone that's used to just kind of eating all day and just kind of nibbling and grazing here and there. You establish some routine and some structure. Give your body a couple hours to not be eating food and not be digesting food, and we can see some health improvements there. Now what it doesn't do is override a calorie surplus. It does not guarantee fat loss and it does not work for everyone, especially women. It does not work for everyone, especially women, and a lot of them experience worse sleep, worse cravings and even menstrual cycle disruption. So for my ladies out there, I strongly recommend eating a balanced breakfast, so kind of our TLDR here for intermittent fasting. If you eat more calories than you burn, even in an eight-hour window, you will still gain weight Period, end of story.

Philip Pape: 7:48

Yeah, I love that you got into the nuance because I think that is a recurring theme that's going to come up as we go through each of these that we want the listener to understand we're thinking through this, looking at the data, looking at the evidence and also trying to personalize this that there are potentially benefits to everything we talk about today. You have to understand the context for that. Just two things real quick.

Philip Pape: 8:07

You mentioned, for the weight loss, for the calorie thing, I saw a post by I think it was the bodybuilding dieticians on Instagram today where they had a table and it had all the diets right Keto, carnivore, et cetera, et cetera and it had all the things that were unique with these check boxes. The last column was calorie deficit and every single one was checked, including the row that said energy balance, right, like a normal, flexible diet. So it's important people understand that's the main driver here. The thing you mentioned about spirituality and sitting with your hunger is a really good one, man, because I literally just got off a call with a client who's more of an advanced guy. He likes to experiment with different protocols and I actually suggested to him hey, have you ever tried fasting for a day to see what it feels like for your hunger.

Isaiah Mitchell: 8:50

Yes.

Philip Pape: 8:50

Because we were talking about psychological and physical and I used to fast. I don't anymore. But when I'm in a fat loss phase now, hunger is no big deal. When it happens I can kind of sit with it. You know, move on. So just maybe pulling that thread a tiny bit and then we'll move on to the next one, because we got, we got to tend to move, to get through, oh, this hunger thing isn't really that much of a challenge.

Isaiah Mitchell: 9:31

It really doesn't have that much power and control over me, outside of the power and control that I'm giving to it and you know anyone that's done a 24 hour fast. You know there comes a point pretty early on in the day, maybe around like noon 2 pm, where it's just gone. The hunger is gone, the desire to eat is gone and the mental clarity just comes in and the presence with you and your environment, your ability to just show up for people around you. Better. That day, like everything just gets better. So I think that's probably the best way to use.

Isaiah Mitchell: 10:00

Fasting is some sort of, you know, spiritual religious practice, whatever it is, but as a end-all, be-all solution to your weight loss problems from now until the rest of your life? Probably not, and it's it's kind of the same thing with keto. We want to ask ourselves what am I actually going to learn from this if I actually end up at my goal? So, for example, if you do keto and you lose 100 pounds, what did you learn? To avoid carbs, that's it. You got nothing else out of that and now here you are, 100 pounds down, wondering how you're going to avoid carbs for the rest of your life.

Isaiah Mitchell: 10:38

Same thing with fasting. If you lose 100 pounds fasting for 16 hours a day, what did you learn To not eat between this time and that time? Nothing about portion sizes, meal building, macros. What's in your food? How do certain foods make you feel? So we want to get curious and actually ask ourselves am I going to learn something I can keep forever from this tool? And then also, can I do this for 10 years? Yeah, because if I can't, I probably shouldn't even do this for 10 years. Yeah, because if I can't, I probably shouldn't even do it for 10 days, let alone 10 minutes, because come day 11, the inputs gone, so the output is gone, and this really is a game of inputs and outputs. We take away that input, we take away the output.

Philip Pape: 11:21

Yeah, agree, and so you want that input to be sustainable, which is actually a perfect segue into the next myth, which is about intuitive eating. That it's a great weight loss or fat loss strategy for beginners Listening to your bodies, eating when you're hungry, stopping when full. However it's defined. Why is that a myth?

Isaiah Mitchell: 11:40

Yeah, yeah. So this is a really a really good one, and one that's been around for a long time and, just like the one we got into and the rest of them, there's a lot of good stuff here and there's a lot of truth, but the problem is people don't realize that intuitive eating is a final destination. It is not a great tool in the beginning, because most people's intuition tells them to eat pizza and ice cream. That's what most people's intuition is telling them. So in the beginning of most people's weight loss journey, we can't yet trust our intuition, and that's okay. So the myth is that all you need to do is listen to your body and you'll lose weight. But for most of us, listening to our body is kind of what got us in this position in the first place, and of course, there's probably a lot of deeper stuff underlying their trauma.

Isaiah Mitchell: 12:33

How food was talked about and interacted with in your house as a child All of that plays a very significant role. But the reality is, this only works if your internal cues are calibrated, and for most people they're just not. So if you have spent years or even decades dieting, binging, skipping meals, emotional eating, your hunger and fullness signals are probably way off. You're probably always hungry and never really satisfied. So telling someone To just intuitively eat Under those conditions Is like handing them a compass that's been spinning for years. It's just not going to get you anywhere.

Isaiah Mitchell: 13:17

So what most beginners need First Is a basic understanding Of energy balance. They need a consistent Meal structure structure and they need at least an awareness of protein, fiber and calorie intake. And then after that we can layer in those intuitive eating skills on top of that. And in fact my clients that are working on this stuff tracking their calories, getting an understanding of energy balance, bringing some awareness to protein, fiber, calorie intake Every time we are presented with an opportunity where we're in a social eating environment, we're outside of our house, we're at a restaurant, we're at a barbecue these are opportunities to sharpen that intuitive eating sword while still laying down the foundation of what we actually need. So in those moments restaurant, birthday, whatever it is I'll advise my clients to not even track that day. Let's just use the day to listen to our body and get better at that skill. So intuition is only helpful when it's been trained and most people need to get some reps in with structure before they can actually trust their instincts.

Philip Pape: 14:32

Yeah, framing it as a skill is exactly the way to go. Right, and people often don't want to put in the time, the work, put in the patience to do that. It's kind of like with strength training, right? You don't just go into the gym and say do what you feel, man. Just you know you're going to be fine. Just do what you feel. Pick whatever machine, do what you want.

Max: 14:47

That's what I did in the beginning, you know, yeah.

Philip Pape: 14:50

Or, hey, I'm going to give you a paycheck with your job. I want you to just you know, spend and save, don't track it, don't don't have a budget. Skill is great. And then, especially, what you said about practicing pulling away from the support mechanisms of tracking, for example, when you go on a vacation, having used the tracking long enough, that you've honed that skill and I'll tell you, people have been doing this for years and years still aren't going to be perfect at it and like, oh, I love to use tracking just to know that I can be precise, and then I can come off of it for a while and kind of go back and forth. So yeah, guys, you just intuitive eating, you can get there, but you have to start somewhere else before you can get there.

Max: 15:32

So that's a good one All right man.

Philip Pape: 15:34

Myth number three always love this one. Cardio for fat loss. Just so you know, we've talked about this a lot in the podcast recently. I'm a big fan of anaerobic sprinting and not chronic cardio and doing lots of walking and lifting, so people listening to the show are on board with that. But there's a lot that still say, hey, I'm doing the Peloton, I'm doing all the cardio, I'm running whatever. Why is that a problem for fat loss? Aren't you burning a ton more calories? Isn't it great for that?

Isaiah Mitchell: 16:02

Right, for sure, for sure. And this is where right what you said there is where a lot of the confusion happens, and this kind of goes back to having a basic understanding of energy balance, but also having some semblance of understanding of how the metabolism works, as well as adaptation and survival. So if we take an hour of cardio and compare that to an hour of strength training, is that hour of cardio going to burn more calories? Absolutely, but not for long. So if you run a mile and that mile, you are burning 300 calories in that first week. Burning 300 calories in that first week. Not very long after that, the total caloric burn is going to significantly decrease, and this is because your body is getting better at that thing you keep making it do. And in the case of cardio, your body is becoming more efficient with calories, meaning it doesn't have to use as much energy as it used to to do that same amount of cardio. Now, in the context of survival, this is great. It'd be absolute disaster if we were hunter gatherers and burning four or five, six thousand calories a day. We wouldn't be here today. So thank goodness our metabolism adapts in both directions.

Isaiah Mitchell: 17:24

Now the myth here is if you want to burn fat, just do more cardio. Now, by no means am I anti-cardio or saying cardio doesn't have a place in people's fitness regimes. It absolutely does, specifically for cardiovascular health and, like every exercise, cardio is just a tool, not necessarily a body sculpting strategy. So, yes, cardio absolutely burns calories, but it does not build muscle, it does not build your metabolism long term and it does not reshape your body in the way that you're after in that tone, lean, defined, athletic look. That's just not going to get you that and in fact, a 2012 meta analysis in obesity reviews showed that diet plus resistance training diet so calorie deficit plus strength training consistently outperform cardio for fat loss and body composition. So long low intensity cardio, minimal calorie burn, high intensity cardio going to be very tough to recover from and can also spike your hunger no-transcript.

Philip Pape: 19:07

What are we trying to get here? A strong, muscular, lean, healthy, functional body that only get there by lifting weights and, by the way, that supports fat loss, because we're not just trying to lose weight, right, we're trying to lose fat and get the better look and feel that we're going for. But you also mentioned the side effects of cardio, like your hunger signals, and that is a real phenomenon. It's, it's been studied, it's been supported and we all know it. Come on, we know it. If I go out for a short couple of sprints, you know. Or if I lift weights, uh, I feel great, but I don't feel I'm not starving, you know. I'm not going to go and crave carbs, sugar, fats, whatever, yeah, but if I run, you know, a 5k, it's like where I don't care, give me a beer, it doesn't matter, just give me some source of energy right now that I need to gobble down, to make make up for it.

Philip Pape: 19:52

Um, yeah, so those are good points, man. I don't know if you want to say anything else about it. We could, we could get going. I know it's kind of like a list we have here.

Isaiah Mitchell: 20:01

I guess what I want to leave the audience with here is just ensuring that cardio isn't the only thing that you're doing Now. If you're like a triathlete, if like cardio is your entire life, you're a cyclist, you're a marathon runner, whatever that makes sense, and this is very goal specific. But for most of you, you want that lean, toned athletic body and you want it to last forever in a way that doesn't make your life suck and had I lost that hundred pounds.

Isaiah Mitchell: 20:35

Without strength loss, I would have been in a very, very difficult position to maintain that weight loss. Because when we strength train, when we go through a reverse dieting process, we're able to reset our baseline or our maintenance calories, and this is the first thing I do with every single client is we rebuild their baseline so we actually have room to cut from without making you absolutely hate your life. So to kind of put this in perspective, a lot of women come to me needing to lose 20, 30, 40, 50 plus pounds and they're eating 1500 calories or less and nothing's moving. The scale isn't moving, inches aren't dropping. And I'll always ask them you know, are we strength training? No, we get protein intake back. They're eating like 40 grams a day.

Isaiah Mitchell: 21:32

And then also, the most important question is have you ever gone through a dedicated muscle building phase? And the answer is always no. Flip it around. Have you ever gone through a dedicated fat loss phase? And the answer is always no. Flip it around. Have you ever gone through a dedicated fat loss phase my entire life? 10, 20, 30 times. And this is the problem Every time we go through that cycle we lose a bit of body fat, but we also lose muscle and then we gain the body fat back and we don't gain back the muscle and year after year, decade after decade, metabolism gets slower and slower and slower and you're just left feeling like your body is broken. So TLDR here is make sure strength training is at the center of your routine and cardio supplements around it in a way that you enjoy. So if you hate 5Ks, don't do 5Ks. If you love the rower, do the rower and you'll be more consistent.

Philip Pape: 22:28

Cool man. I mean. That's why I wanted to have you on the show, and vice versa, because these are exactly the points of trying to get into, drill into people's heads, especially the one you mentioned about spending time in a muscle building phase. Many times, that's the thing that's missing from fat loss, because you've pushed, pushed in one direction and you haven't, uh, built up the boulder that can be sculpted versus the pebble you are right now exactly so no, it's good, and I stole that from someone else.

Philip Pape: 22:52

Man, that's where I hear all these great metaphors from. So, um, so we talked about nutrition, we talked a little bit about dieting. The big boogeyman of course, besides seed oils, it's a different boogeyman. Of course, besides seed oils, it's a different boogeyman is carbs right. Carbs, not just carbohydrates in general, but the fact that they have some unique propensity to make you even fatter. And there's an entire school of, I'll say, belief out there, the Gary Tobes of the world, who still push this lipid hypothesis. Or is it the lipid hypothesis, the fat you know what I'm saying? The carb fat storage hypothesis that has been debunked. Where do we go with this now? To just let people know they, they can eat carbs. Carbs actually may be great in certain contexts and they may not make you fat for the reasons you think, at least. What's the story?

Isaiah Mitchell: 23:36

for sure. So this is one I have talked about agnosium I never get tired of writing about, uh, this, and I'm honestly. I'm honestly kind of surprised it's still as prevalent of an issue as it is in 2025. But we just continue to do the good work.

Isaiah Mitchell: 23:52

So, of course, the myth here is that carbs equal storing body fat equals avoid at all costs. And the reality is carbohydrates are actually the body's preferred fuel source. The body, every single one of your organs and even your brain rely on glucose, which comes from carbohydrates. Now, weight gain, fat gain, happens when you eat more calories than you burn from any source, any source carbohydrates, dietary fats, protein although it's going to be very, very unlikely, you know, we see in like metabolic tracer studies. If any of them has a higher propensity to be turned into actual body fat, it's fat. Because it's already fat, it's really easy to turn fat into just stored fat. So low carb diets can work because they often reduce your calorie intake and also suppress appetite, but carbs themselves are not the issue.

Isaiah Mitchell: 25:00

15 review in the Lancet compared low carb and low fat diets and found no significant difference in fat loss when the calories and protein were matched. And this, once again, as we talked about earlier is one of hundreds of thousands of studies. I can't even tell you how many low carb versus this, low carb versus that, low carb versus that, and every single time when the calories and protein are equal, the results are exactly the same. So what comes down to? What do you prefer, what makes you feel the best and what can you actually stick to? And for most people, the answer is definitely not going to be keto, but maybe somewhere in the middle.

Isaiah Mitchell: 25:46

You know, not everybody is, you know, high performing athlete that needs three to four hundred grams of carbohydrates a day. But the TLDR is it's not the carbs, it's about context and calories, calories. So 100 grams of sweet potato isn't necessarily the same thing as 100 grams of donuts in terms of like, how you're going to feel nutrient content, how that's going to influence your food choices the rest of the day, and also, you know, pro differences in protein content, differences in fiber content, can vary differently between certain carb sources. But I think a lot of people just have an immediate reaction when they hear the word carbs and they instantly think of stuff like french fries and donuts and the cookies and the chips and not realizing broccoli is a carb source.

Isaiah Mitchell: 26:39

All vegetables are a carb source. Fruit is a carb source quinoa, white rice, sweet potatoes, all of this different kind of stuff and not only do they have carbs, they also nutrients, and this is the. This is the context that gets ignored so often when grifters and gurus want to hone in and demonize a single ingredient in a food, be that, you know, like oxalates in sweet potatoes or something, or like the lectins and beans you know goitrogens and broccoli yes, yes, ignoring the fact that the dose makes the poison, and these things are dosed to be harmful for insects, not a hundred and fifty to two hundred and fifty pound human and also all of the other nutrients that come with it that counteract that.

Isaiah Mitchell: 27:29

One little thing in there, and even in, you know, meat there's like the, the, any GU seven or something that's like potentially carcinogenic, like there's something in everything that we could hone down and be like oh look, that's bad for you, we can't eat that anymore. But if you go down this path long enough, if you read enough diet books that are written for my, you know physicians, you will be left with ice cubes and that's it.

Philip Pape: 27:54

So you won't need anything. Exactly, exactly. Plants will kill you, meat will kill you, fats will kill you. You're done. You're done, you're done, you're dead and you're just suffering through life and you don't get to enjoy your next meal. Yeah, no, I mean, there's a lot there. Obviously, this is one of those that could be an entire episode itself. What I think you've been doing throughout this conversation is focusing on also the positives, though, both what we lack when we avoid these things, such as the nutrients, but also the positives of hey, your brain needs this as an energy source. Hey, energy balance is determined by the totality of your dietary pattern and your calories. It has nothing to do with the macros. These give people the permission that many folks don't think they have from having been conditioned, I think, through this industry. To say something is just so nefariously terrible for them, so I think that's good. What about just real quick carbs for people who are building muscle?

Isaiah Mitchell: 28:56

What's the benefit there? Yeah, yeah, so, truly one of the best ideas because, as we just covered, it's your body's preferred fuel source and it's also its most efficient way to turn that food into actual usable energy. And when we talk about using fats as fuel, on average it's about two to four times slower. So absolutely not what we want. So when you have adequate carbohydrates and your resistance training and you're trying to build muscle, you're just going to have better workouts, you're going to have better pumps, you're going to feel better, You're going to be able to push yourself harder and then also recover better on the back end, which is where everything hinges on, because you only get the gains that you can recover from and then, not to mention, we're going to sleep better.

Isaiah Mitchell: 29:37

Carbohydrates, of course, raise insulin, which they're supposed to. It's a normal physiological process, but insulin and cortisol work counter regulatory to each other. So this is why I encourage all of my clients make sure they get in some post post workout carbohydrates, and I typically recommend shifting their carbohydrate intake to have most of it in the back half of the day, when cortisol is usually going to be the highest. You're getting off work. You're already stressed from that. You got cut off in traffic. You get home, your kids are running all over the place. Let's bring down that cortisol with some carbohydrates. So net benefit really no negatives there for anyone wanting to build muscle. Now can you build muscle on a ketogenic diet? Absolutely. There's plenty of people that are living proof of that. It's just not the most efficient way.

Philip Pape: 30:29

It's going to be slower.

Isaiah Mitchell: 30:30

And you're not going to have a pump like say goodbye to your pumps, for sure yeah, no, it's great.

Philip Pape: 30:35

I mean we we did a whole episode on the um, the anti-catabolic effects of carbs but this idea of carbs for cortisol and hormone support and everything is also under um rated or not talked about enough, so I think I might do another episode on that. Thanks for the thanks for the inspiration with that answer.

Isaiah Mitchell: 30:50

Yeah, um, yeah and another quick little blurb here before we move on to the the next one. I know a lot of anti-carb people will bring up the fact that carbs are not essential, and they're not. Neither is fiber. Right, and that's exactly what I'm about to get into, because that actually does make carbohydrates essential. Are they essential for survival? For you? Just stay alive? No, you can eat zero carbs and stay alive, just fine. But we're not talking about just staying alive. We're talking about optimizing and thriving. So if we're talking about optimizing and thriving, no carbs means no fiber. Therefore, carbohydrates are essential for optimal health, in my opinion. Yep, I agree.

Philip Pape: 31:39

I agree, man. All right, no argument here. We're just going to agree the whole time here, but I guess that's okay, since we're trying to help people break the myths and have some clarity. So myth number five, one of my favorites I've had a lot of women trainers and bodybuildersers on lately too, including Holly Baxter was on recently, and we're always hitting on this myth that lifting weights makes women bulky. I'm not even going to explain the myth I think people have heard it was like 30 women had done one workout and they woke up looking like Arnold Schwarzenegger.

Isaiah Mitchell: 32:07

That's right, man. When I got my driver's license, the very next week, nascar was calling me and trying to sign me onto their team, so hopefully you guys can realize that.

Philip Pape: 32:24

I know man I'm totally joking. And all the jacked women at the grocery store yesterday. They're just everywhere. They're just everywhere.

Isaiah Mitchell: 32:33

So the myth here here, of course, is strength training is going to make you look manly, it's going to make you look too muscular, it's going to make you look like a football player. And the truth is there are men with more advantageous genetics than you, more natural testosterone than you, a more anabolic internal environment in their body, that have been trying to get that body you're afraid you're going to get for decades and they're still not there. After meticulously training, dialing in their sleep, dialing in the nutrition, they're still not there and they're trying to get there. So you not trying to get there without the inner workings of a man? That's absolutely not going to happen.

Isaiah Mitchell: 33:16

So building visible muscle takes years, even with optimal training, eating, sleep, genetics, and women typically have 10 to 30 times less testosterone than men 30 times less testosterone than men. So most of the bulk that women feel when they start lifting is muscle being built underneath body fat inflammation and water retention. From being new to training changes in like glycogen stores as well. If we're building new muscle, that's just more storage. You now have to store those carbohydrates. So when we eat, carbohydrates comes in as glucose and then we store it as glycogen in skeletal muscle and also in the liver. It's actually pretty cool. You can store somewhere around like 2000 calories of carbohydrates just in the body to be used whenever it's absolutely crazy. And then also, what could also be happening is not adjusting nutrition to reduce body fat while you're building that muscle. So what most people call toned is just showing the muscle that you've built through lower body fat. So if you want curves, what you actually want is muscle.

Philip Pape: 34:32

Yep, totally agree. And the way I like to illustrate that as well, isaiah right, is, you know, asking a woman to show me a physique that she admires from an athlete or someone you know, someone out there that looks lean in tone. Guess their weight. Look up their actual body weight and it's usually 20 to 40 pounds heavier than they think. That's the bulk you don't want. I doubt it. That's the bulk you don't want. I doubt it. That's exactly what you want. So let's just put that to bed. And if it's a fat gain, fat loss situation, it has nothing to do with the muscle. It has to do with the cross-sectional area of the fat, with the muscle or the fact you haven't revealed the muscle yet. So really good points.

Isaiah Mitchell: 35:08

And it only stands to benefit you from a metabolism perspective, from a sustainability perspective, from being able to eat more while still losing body fat perspective. It's, it's everything you want, yep all right, man, let's keep going.

Philip Pape: 35:22

Uh, you got to eat clean 100 of the time, don't you like clean eating it's, it's a religion for some people I used to be there, man, I did paleo, I did uh, you know, quote unquote clean, whatever that means. Um, I love whole foods, I love nutritious foods. Why don't we just eat 100 of those?

Isaiah Mitchell: 35:37

for sure, for sure. So I I saw a post yesterday by um steve craft coaching. If you know him, he's a he's a guy from the uk, absolutely hilarious. But he made a post on kind of how the fitness industry goes through this cycle. You know, every couple decades of like, oh it's, everything has to be clean. 100 percent of the time, calories don't matter. Then we go on to the next thing and ultimately we land back at. You know, it's calories in, calories out at the end of the day. And you should probably leave a little flexibility to enjoy the short time you have on this earth, because life is a lot more than your body. Life is a lot more than food.

Isaiah Mitchell: 36:15

So the myth here is that results require rigid perfection, and I am living proof that's not true, because I absolutely was not rigidly perfect on my journey of losing 100 pounds. And here I am, almost 10 years later, and it ain't coming back. And I have a mini bag of Doritos Almost every day. I'm drinking a diet soda right here and it's showing no signs of coming back. On top of that, the over 400 clients I've worked with and I can show everyone their consistency trackers None of them were perfect. None of them have a From start to the end of our time, working together 100% across the board. They had some perfect weeks, maybe they had a couple perfect weeks in a row, but progress does not demand perfection, and consistency always, always, always beats perfection.

Isaiah Mitchell: 37:13

And here's the kicker you can eat clean 100% of the time and still gain fat, and then, on the flip side, you can eat only cupcakes, only cupcakes, and lose fat steadily. Are you going to feel different on one versus the other? For sure, are you going to feel different on one versus the other? For sure, and of course, those are two extremes, which is I did that on purpose, because I boxes, it's probably good to eat, and then the remaining 20 percent goes to the things that make you happy, even if they're providing absolutely no nutritional content. We have to make room for these things, because the vast majority of you listening to this are not david goggins and do not want to live that life and really just don't read. And I honestly, I think the, the internet as a whole, is kind of getting tired of the whole red pill, super hardcore discipline, no days off, just keep grinding like. I think we're kind of getting tired of it.

Philip Pape: 38:27

So we are man, yeah and yeah, I and I've, and I've never resonated with that. I love doing hard things, but, man, when somebody says I'm doing 75 hard or doing this extreme approach, I'm just like why? My first question is why? Because are you doing it? Because you think it's going to instill some sense of discipline you didn't have before. That's fine, you want to try to do that, but good luck doing that the rest of your life and happiness and enjoyment from food. There's nothing to be guilty of regarding that.

Philip Pape: 38:56

I've seen people comment, uh, to say, hey, if you think food's for enjoyment, you've got a problem. I'm like that's a problem with you, buddy. There's emotional eating. There's, you know, trigger-based, you know, things that we try to find from food. That's a different situation. You're not doing it because you're happy, you know. In that sense, I'm having my wife's birthday cake all week, you know, because it was her birthday and I'm in a fat loss phase, man, so on. You know 1,800, 2,000 calories. That's slightly more challenging, but I am going to enjoy it and it's going to work and I'm going to lose the fat, just like you did, and I always have a box of Pop-Tarts in the cabinet for when I'm in the fat, when I'm in the muscle building phase, they do not look how they used to do.

Isaiah Mitchell: 39:36

It's disrespectful at this point.

Philip Pape: 39:38

And they're tiny too. They're smaller. Yeah, not having it, everything shrinks. Not having it, but what?

Isaiah Mitchell: 39:43

you got into there is, more often than not, that emotional eating, the trigger-based eating, the binge eating, aiming for 100% clean all the time.

Isaiah Mitchell: 39:55

That is where this will lead to, exactly Because we go back to something called the forbidden fruit effect, in that humans only want what we tell ourselves we can't have is bad for us is off-limits. So quick thought experiment for everybody here anyone that's ever struggled with binging I will bet everything I have that none of you are binging on chicken salads. It's just not happening. It's the cake, it's the candies, it's the cookies, it's the pizza, it's the things you told yourself you're not allowed to have for xyz reason, because you think it's fat and because you think it's going to kill you, because you think it's poison, uh, because susan down the street told you, uh, to stop eating them. But this strict eating very often leads to an all or nothing mindset, the binge restrict cycle, which is absolutely nasty and very difficult to get out of, and then also nutritional deficiencies due to limited food variety. So I would rather you, the listener, eat 80 whole foods and 20 for your soul instead of burning out on 100 and quitting by week three, which is what happens every single time.

Philip Pape: 41:15

That's the way to put it. So I'm wondering if we can segue into myth seven and nine, which is sugar and seed oils, based on this conversation, because it's effectively saying okay, you guys are talking about pop tarts and Doritos and I've heard that there's just sugar is toxic and seed oils are toxic and plants are toxic. We talked about it. So I think there's going to be some similarities, even though there's unique aspects to each. But sugar being inflammatory, unhealthy, fattening, seed oils being just terrible for you in every respect whatsoever, that we're trying to ban them. What's the reality?

Isaiah Mitchell: 41:46

Yeah, this is where we definitely get into the weeds and into the nuance. We definitely get into the weeds and into the nuance. So even early on in my coaching career, I was taught there are good fats and bad fats. Omega-3s good black and white, on-off switch. Omega-6s bad inflammatory, on-off switch. And nothing in nutrition is black and white.

Isaiah Mitchell: 42:14

So let's start with sugar and the myth being that all sugar is bad and any amount is toxic. And the reality is sugar in excess, especially when it's combined with ultra processed foods and a sedentary lifestyle. That is what contributes to inflammation and disease, and it's actually from the surplus of calories. So if you kept your energy intake in check, if you were eating excess sugar but you were at a maintenance level of calories, it's ultra processed foods and you have a sedentary lifestyle. You are better off than the person that's ultra processed foods and you have a sedentary lifestyle. You are better off than the person that's simply eating more calories than you.

Isaiah Mitchell: 42:58

So just being in a caloric surplus is one of the biggest culprits and drivers of inflammation and disease, regardless of the composition of your diet. If I follow a Mediterranean diet and, for the next year, eat more calories than I burn, I'm going to be in a worse place as far as my health. But a small amount of sugar in a nutrient dense diet is not a problem, especially when we control calories. 18 review in nutrients very, very reputable journal, found that moderate sugar intake did not independently increase any inflammatory markers when total calorie intake and other nutrients were managed. And then, on top of that, the who recommends keeping your added sugars under 10% of total calories, and this is typically my recommendation for clients. Same with saturated fats, both that and sugar. Keep it between 10% to 20% of your calories and you're going to be good to go, which does not mean elimination. So the poison is in the dose and in you know what else you're eating with it.

Philip Pape: 44:15

But I can promise you fruit is not the enemy of anyone, but the 3 pm vending machine might be yeah, especially since the high levels of these things, especially added sugars or potentially seed oils, are generally correlated with high processed food consumption, ultra processed food consumption, which leads to, ad libitum, generally more calorie intake. If you're not tracking Now, if you are tracking, if you're following it, you can easily moderate those things. And if they're only part of a 10, 20%, as you recommend, again even easier to flexibly moderate and include them.

Max: 44:51

Shout out to Philly Pay. I know Philippe for a long time. I know how passionate he is about healthy eating and body strength and that's why I choose him to be my coach. I was no stranger to dieting and body training, but I always struggled to do it sustainably. Philippe helped me prioritize my goals with evidence-based recommendations while not overstressing my body and not feeling like I'm starving. In six months, I lost 45 pounds without drastically changing the foods I enjoy, but now I have a more balanced diet. I weight train consistently but, most importantly, I do it sustainably, If a scientifically sound, healthy diet and a lean, strong body is what you're looking. So we briefly touched on seed oils.

Philip Pape: 45:38

Again, I'm just flipping two of these myths around. To continue on that line, seed oils have another unique concern in that people talk about the processing, which that really gets to me, because my philosophy is like I almost don't care how it's processed. If the outcome shows better health than something else, it's worst health that's. That's seems logical to me to think that way, but of course people have concerns. What's wrong with seed oils? Why are they getting such a bad rap and what's the reality?

Isaiah Mitchell: 46:05

Yeah, so A little bit into like the conspiracy theory here, but I think one of the biggest reasons they're getting vilified and most things go back to money at the end of the day, they're very, very cheap. They're very, very cheap and inexpensive. So we're talking about like canola oil, soybean oil, sunflower oil, safflower oil. They're toxic, they cause inflammation, they're going to kill you, they destroy your metabolism, which isn't even really possible, and the data just doesn't support any of these claims. And I've talked to so many people on the Internet, back and forth, in comments on different podcasts, talking about seed oils and you can't find me any research to support their claims. And then, of course, we get into it's all. It's all bought and paid for. All the researchers are corrupt. We can't even trust science, and that's just a lazy argument in my opinion. And they never have issues with the study layout, the methods that were used. Maybe they want to attack, attack the funding, but we flip that around on them. Have you ever funded research? Noble, someone's got to like, someone's got to pay these, pay these researchers. But even just to get into some of the evidence 2017, there was a systematic review of 30 plus clinical trials, so a systematic review for anyone that doesn't know is basically a study of studies, so there were over 30 clinical trials included in this review published in circulation found that increasing linoleic acid, the main omega six in seed oils, did not increase inflammatory markers, and that finding this is the important part has gone on to be repeated and replicated year after year. Every time a new study comes out on seed oils, we find inflammation actually getting better. Especially with canola oil, we see improvements in inflammatory markers, improvements in lipids, improvements in insulin sensitivity in lipids, improvements in uh insulin sensitivity.

Isaiah Mitchell: 48:17

So most of the fear comes from one charlatans and grifters on social media so quick, you know little breakdown of what to look for. If they're filming content shirtless in a grocery store, just hit that block button. If they're wearing blue light blocking glasses while not even looking at a screen, probably a good idea to just block them. And if their content is mostly based on fear, making you afraid of certain foods and vilifying specific chemicals, specific ingredients, probably not someone that's actually worth their salt. And most of the fear comes from rodent studies using absolutely absurd amounts of seed oils that you and I as humans could not feasibly obtain, especially on a regular basis. Or it comes from data of oil being reused over and over and over again at high frying temperatures.

Isaiah Mitchell: 49:10

Now that, I will say, absolutely has some, you know, negative stuff that can come with it, but for most people cooking at home with canola oil, you use the oil once and you're done. You know, at a fast food place might be a little bit different, but when used in moderation, especially cold or lightly cooked, seed oils could actually support your heart health and even lower LDL cholesterol when replacing saturated fats, which is what people should actually be afraid of. If we're going to be afraid of anything, it's moderating our saturated fat intake. And the crazy part is the people that are the most vocal about villainizing. The crazy part is the people that are the most vocal about villainizing seed oils glorify saturated fat and deny the science we have.

Philip Pape: 49:58

Yeah, cherry pick studies to death.

Isaiah Mitchell: 50:00

Yep. It is directly linked directly linked to LDL cholesterol increasing, which is an independent, independent risk factor for cardiovascular disease independent risk factor for cardiovascular disease. So if you're stressing over the seed oil in your salad dressing, but eating ultra processed snacks five times a day and walking around with a little carcinogen every single day, you're missing the forest for the trees.

Philip Pape: 50:26

Smartphone. He's holding a smartphone, guys.

Philip Pape: 50:30

So, yeah, I mean I couldn't have said it better, especially when you compare saturated fat. One other thing that has come up over the years that I think has been debunked is the omega three to six ratio. I think the general consensus is that adding in more omega three is beneficial, and that's really where it came down from. It wasn't even the ratio itself. And, like you said, omega six, like linoleic acid, is, especially when compared to saturated fat, an improvement in your health. So just look at the data, guys. It's all out there.

Philip Pape: 50:58

And don't follow the people. Block all the people. Isaiah said to block, so grocery store.

Isaiah Mitchell: 51:04

Once a quarter I'll repost my list of people to unfollow people lying to you on social media. That's good.

Philip Pape: 51:12

All right, we got a couple to get through here. Um, the second one or the ninth myth year. Now it's number nine. Uh, hormones, where do we start? Because everything gets blamed on hormones. Everything gets sold as a hormone balancing or hormone fixing remedy. So just maybe keep. Let's keep this somewhat concise, cause I know it can go off into a crazy level of detail, for sure. But yeah, it's your hormones, right right, absolutely not your.

Isaiah Mitchell: 51:39

Not your habits, not your lifestyle, not the lack of muscle, not the chronic yo-yo dieting.

Philip Pape: 51:44

So that's it, you just, you just answered it, those other things are the reason, exactly, exactly.

Isaiah Mitchell: 51:50

But that comes back to what I've noticed the majority of the population seems to be allergic to in 2025, which is personal responsibility and accountability. The more we can point the finger to something else, the better we feel. But what we don't understand is when we point that finger, we are choosing where the power goes, where the control goes, and the day that you finally flip that around and realize it's me, you can finally start moving forward. So hormones like insulin, cortisol, estrogen, thyroid hormones absolutely play a role in metabolism and, most importantly, in appetite a very, very big role in appetite. But in most people, the real issue is not their hormones, it's chronic stress, it's poor sleep, it's low protein, it's low fiber, it's inconsistent or no habits and it's no or inconsistent resistance training.

Isaiah Mitchell: 52:54

And now getting into some of the research back in 2020, we've got a meta analysis from endocrine reviews and they found that why, while hormonal imbalances can contribute to weight regulation, they rarely cause significant weight gain on their own without lifestyle factors. So that was their actual conclusion from that meta analysis. So we have to fix the basics first, then check our hormones. But blaming them too early is often just a distraction from what we can actually control. And I always tell people go test them, go test them, because one of two things is going to happen Everything's fine and now we have to point the finger back at you, or everything's jacked up and we still have to point the finger back at you because they're jacked up because of you, because of our lifestyle, because of our habits.

Isaiah Mitchell: 53:52

So, either way, it goes back to us and refocusing on the basics and what we can control.

Philip Pape: 53:59

And I think that's powerful, like once people realize that you're not calling people victims. I mean, people might make themselves victims but you're saying look, you've got the say in this and the way that you take responsibility and accountability may require getting support, may require pharmacology, we don't know, but it's probably going to require starting with the pillars of lifestyle, like you mentioned, and honestly, you can expand that and generalize it to any boogeyman, any outside, like you said, external locus of control that you're pointing at Start with yourself, do it first and then check what's left. I love that approach. See what's left? You don't know until you've eliminated those variables first. So 100% awesome. And so the final myth today is if you woke up tomorrow in your dream body, all your problems would go away, life would be perfect, it's sailing to the sunset.

Philip Pape: 54:48

You die a happy person. You never have to worry about anything again. True right.

Isaiah Mitchell: 54:54

I wish sunset, you die, a happy person, you never have to worry about anything again. True, right, I wish, I sure, I sure wish it was the case, and a lot of people seem to seem to think that's the case, and they tend to put off a lot of the uh, what I like to call inner work until they reach their destination. They're like oh, I'll just worry about that when I get there. Or even like how are we going to keep it off for the rest of your life? I'll worry about that when I get there. Or even like how are we going to keep it off for the rest of your life? I'll worry about that when I get there. Right now, I just want to get there so I can be happy, which is a whole other conversation.

Isaiah Mitchell: 55:20

It's like wait, why are we putting our happiness on hold for this thing that we don't even know if it's going to make you happy for more than five minutes or a week? But if you woke up tomorrow and you had your dream body, the excitement would last for all about five minutes, because you would very quickly get the reality check that you have no idea how to maintain it, because you're still a binger, you're still a stress eater, you're still an emotional eater, you still don't do your workouts, you still don't have a step goal set for yourself, you still don't have a wind down and sleep routine. So you've got the destination, but you don't have. You don't even know how you got there and you haven't become the person that can stay there. So the myth here is that weight loss is going to fix all your problems and fix your self worth. But the reality is losing weight can and usually does, boost your confidence, but it doesn't automatically erase insecurity, body image issues or emotional eating patterns. And in fact, research from the Journal of Health Psychology shows that body dissatisfaction often persists even after weight loss, unless deeper mindset and identity work is done. And this is 99% of my program and what I work on my clients with is the reason you became overweight in the first place, fixing that root cause deeper mindset and identity rooted issues, because nobody, myself included, becomes 100 pounds overweight because you felt like it, because it was fun, because it made life better. It doesn't. It makes everything about life worse. You are running from something, you are suppressing something. You are suppressing something or you are distracting yourself from something and the outer work losing weight, seeing the scale go down the inches, your clothes fitting differently.

Isaiah Mitchell: 57:21

The outer work without the inner work does not work, and I don't want any of the listeners here to have to go through what I did because I made this mistake. I lost 100 pounds without doing the inner work. There I was 100 pounds down, no idea where to go from there. I had no idea what reverse dieting was. I knew very little about metabolism. I sure as heck wasn't going on a bulk because that scared the crap out of me. So there I was, 21, eating 1500 calories, no sex drive, no libido. My hair was falling out and for the next four years I battled an eating disorder of that binge and restrict cycle because I never did the inner work. So trust me when I say the outer work without the inner work does not work, and if you hate yourself on the way down, you will find something new to hate when you get there. So you have to work on who you are becoming, not just on how much you weigh.

Philip Pape: 58:27

Yeah, and that's an interesting one, because people are seeking the outward manifestation of what it takes to get there with the inner work. But you can get there with superficial outer work in some way, and that can be highly misleading. Going back to our early discussion about intuitive eating, of building the skills and the proactive systems and habits underneath, that gets you there, how do people then? What should people be striving for? They come to you and they say I want to lose weight. That's their number one top thing. You then have to drill that down. I've definitely seen people's mindset evolve as you work through these and they discover oh man, this is really not about my physique, this is really not about even my health, so to speak. It's perhaps what those things get me, but it's also getting there in the right way with the right process.

Philip Pape: 59:20

So, just to kind of tie it off in a bow. How does someone listening? What should they ask themselves now about what they really want to drive them to start the proper process?

Isaiah Mitchell: 59:30

Yeah, yeah, and I'm sure you ask this question a lot too. But one of the the first questions I'll ask people when they, when we get clear on the goal you know I want to lose 50 pounds, I want to lose a hundred pounds, why, why and what do you think that is going to do for you? And then we just keep going deeper and deeper from there. You could follow that up with asking why? Five more times that eventually we'll get to the actual, uh, the actual route. But what I definitely want to leave people with on this one is just kind of a brief understanding of identity and why it's so important, especially in the game of weight loss. So, for the easiest way for me to help people conceptualize identity in this context is think of a thermostat. So I set my thermostat to 70 degrees and it's 90 degrees outside, starts to heat up the inside of the house. Thermostat goes up, it realizes that, kicks in and cools the house back off to its set point at 70.

Isaiah Mitchell: 1:00:35

The same is true for your identity in the game of weight loss. So if you label yourself, if your identity is a binger, someone who's never motivated, someone who can't be consistent, someone who always gains the weight back. Someone who starts over every Monday and then you lose 5, 10, 15, 20 pounds. That's a threat to the system. Thermostat kicks in, brings you back to your set point. I knew you'd gain the weight back. You're not motivated again, you're self-sabotaging again. That is the very thing that we have to fix, or you will struggle with weight loss for the rest of your life. There is no sugar code in it. There is no way around it. You have to fix the root. It's just like you know getting into like the functional medicine side of things, like we have to get to the actual root cause of what's causing these symptoms to manifest. Same thing here perfect usually a lot man.

Isaiah Mitchell: 1:01:30

A lot of that usually comes back from childhood.

Philip Pape: 1:01:34

Yeah, exactly. So every single one of these myths can spawn lots of discussion, lots of learning, lots of education. Guys, if you're listening to this, this is just 10 of 20 myths we're covering, because we're going to cover 10 more. On Fat Loss Forever Isaiah's podcast it should be in your feed right now. But each one of these, if anything, piqued your interest, if anything sound like a low-hanging fruit, an opportunity, something you're curious or skeptical about, please reach out to us but also dig into it further. Check out Isaiah's podcast, check out mine. We'll have links in the show notes. But, man, thank you so much for doing this, isaiah, we really covered a lot of ground, just you know, with those 10 minutes.

Philip Pape: 1:02:10

So thank you, man.

Isaiah Mitchell: 1:02:12

Absolutely, it was a pleasure. It was a pleasure. Hopefully the audience got something out of it. That's what we're here for.

Philip Pape: 1:02:17

All right, man, so I'm going to include the link in the show notes to check out Isaiah's podcast and go check out the other 10 myths that we talked about there, and I'll see you next time, man, peace out.

Why It's Perfectly OK to Chase Aesthetics (Lose Fat to Get Lean, Healthy, AND Happy) | Ep 312

Join Wits & Weights Physique University and get 2 weeks free plus access to your first challenge. Transform your physique in a way that optimizes both health and aesthetics with a personalized nutrition plan and workout programs that align with your goals. Go to witsandweights.com/physique

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Feeling guilty about wanting to look good? To have visible abs, a perky butt, or bulging biceps?

It's time to shed that unnecessary burden. 

The fitness industry has created a false dichotomy between training for health versus training for appearance, making many feel ashamed about aesthetic goals. 

Yet research reveals these pursuits are actually aligned, with the body composition that looks good typically being the same one that optimizes health markers.

You'll discover why your desire for a better physique isn't shallow but actually connected to both biological drivers and psychological well-being... and how pursuing reasonable aesthetic goals provides benefits that extend far beyond fitness.

Main Takeaways:

• Health and aesthetics aren't opposing forces; they're complementary goals that largely overlap

• The body fat levels considered visually appealing align with optimal health markers

• Pursuing aesthetic goals develops life skills that transfer to other areas

• Building muscle is both aesthetically beneficial and critically important for long-term health

Timestamps:

0:01 - Breaking free from guilt about aesthetics (how you look)
2:22 - The false divide between health and appearance 
8:27 - When clients whisper their aesthetic goals
10:17 - The science that connects looks and health
14:06 - Psychological benefits of physique goals
17:11 - The evolutionary reasons we care about looks
22:15 - Balancing aesthetics and health in practice
28:53 - How physique development skills transfer to success in life
34:30 - Embracing both health and aesthetics

Why Chasing Aesthetics Might Be the Healthiest Thing You Can Do

If you’ve ever second-guessed your desire to look lean, muscular, or just damn good in the mirror—this is your permission slip to stop apologizing. Because the idea that caring about aesthetics makes you vain, shallow, or somehow less focused on “true” health? It’s nonsense. And in this episode of Wits & Weights, I’m breaking down why your aesthetic goals might be the best thing you could do for your long-term health, confidence, and quality of life.

The False Choice Between Health and Aesthetics

There’s a narrative out there that says you have to choose between training for performance or training to look good. That if you chase visible abs or muscular arms, you’re neglecting your health or falling for toxic fitness culture.

That narrative is wrong.

In coaching, I hear it all the time: people whispering their aesthetic goals like a guilty confession—"I know I should just focus on my health… but I want to see my abs too." Here’s the thing: wanting to look better is not in conflict with improving your health. In fact, the path to an aesthetic physique overlaps almost perfectly with the path to better health.

Leaner, Stronger, Healthier: The Overlap Is Real

Let’s look at some objective data:

• Optimal body fat ranges for aesthetics—about 10–15% for men and 18–23% for women—are the same ranges associated with:

  • Lower cardiovascular risk

  • Improved insulin sensitivity

  • Better hormonal health

  • Reduced inflammation

A 2019 study in the European Heart Journal found that body fat percentage—not BMI—is one of the strongest predictors of heart disease risk. So if you’re pursuing fat loss to look more defined, you’re also putting yourself in a much better position metabolically.

On the muscle side, higher lean mass is tied to:

• Reduced all-cause mortality

• Better glucose control

• Higher resting metabolic rate

• Stronger immune function

In other words, the pursuit of a more muscular and lean physique supports your health markers across the board.

And yes, even visible abs matter. Not because they’re a badge of honor, but because lower visceral fat—the dangerous kind that wraps around your organs—tends to be associated with leanness in the abdominal area. So if your stomach is flatter, you’re not just "looking fit"—you probably are metabolically healthier.

Strength Training and Nutrition: The Foundation for Both Goals

Here’s where the methods really align:

• Resistance training is non-negotiable. It improves aesthetics, supports bone density, boosts metabolism, enhances function, and increases longevity.

• Proper nutrition—especially adequate protein and whole food intake—supports muscle retention, improves energy, regulates hormones, and makes fat loss sustainable.

There is no contradiction here. The same plan that helps you uncover your physique is the plan that improves your blood work, mental health, and stress resilience.

But What About the Mental Side?

Let’s talk psychology.

Studies show that body satisfaction is associated with lower anxiety, higher confidence, and improved well-being. When you pursue aesthetic goals in a healthy, structured way—not through crash diets or disordered habits—you tend to feel better because you’re building something. You’re working toward something. And that increases self-efficacy—the belief that you can take control of your body, your habits, and your life.

In coaching, I’ve seen this time and time again. Someone starts with the goal of getting leaner, and along the way:

• They gain confidence to ask for a promotion

• They engage more fully in relationships

• They show up with purpose, discipline, and pride

This isn't superficial. This is identity-level change. And it starts with honoring the desire to look and feel your best.

Yes, There's a Line—but Most People Aren't Even Close to It

Of course, we’re not ignoring the extremes. Competitive bodybuilding, crash dieting, or obsessing over aesthetics at the expense of your well-being—that’s not what we’re talking about.

But that’s also not where most people are.

Most people need permission to start caring about how they look, and to know that it’s not vanity. It’s self-respect.

Because the truth is, for 95% of people, chasing aesthetics improves both physical and mental health—as long as you do it with intention, evidence, and sustainability in mind.

Make It Sustainable, Trackable, and Aligned

How do you pursue this the right way?

1. Define your goals clearly: "I want a lean, muscular physique that reflects and supports optimal health." Say it out loud. It’s not selfish. It’s empowering.

2. Use the right metrics:

   • Track body composition, not just weight

   • Measure strength, mobility, and performance

   • Use biofeedback: energy, mood, libido, sleep

3. Avoid extremes: No crash diets. No endless cardio. No restrictive eating.

4. Cycle your goals: Use short fat loss phases and maintenance periods. Build muscle when you have the energy and food to support it. Don’t try to do everything all at once.

5. Leverage aesthetics as motivation: It's totally okay if you’re motivated by the mirror. Let that fuel your consistency while the deeper health benefits quietly accumulate in the background.

Final Thoughts

Looking good and feeling good are not opposites. They are deeply intertwined.

Strength training, lean mass, and moderate body fat levels are some of the strongest predictors of health, performance, and resilience—especially as we age. Aesthetic goals are not a distraction. They’re a feature, not a bug, of an optimal training and nutrition plan.

So chase the aesthetics. Build the muscle. Lose the fat. Show up in your life with confidence.

And if you want help doing it the right way—with data, structure, and support—you can always check out Wits & Weights Physique University. That’s where we guide you through a sustainable transformation built around evidence and engineering.

Because you deserve to look great and feel great—for the long haul.

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Get notified of new episodes. Listen on Apple, Spotify, or all other platforms.

Then hit “Follow” and you’re good to go!

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Transcript

Philip Pape: 0:01

If you've ever felt guilty about wanting to look good like, somehow wanting visible abs or defined arms makes you shallow or vain, this episode will free you from that unnecessary burden. The truth is that wanting to look athletic, lean and muscular is not just about vanity. It's deeply connected to optimal health markers, longevity and even psychological well-being. Yet many of us have been made to feel ashamed about aesthetic goals, as if pursuing a better physique means we're somehow superficial or missing the real point of fitness. Today, we're challenging this false dichotomy between health and aesthetics, revealing the overwhelming evidence that they're actually aligned. Welcome to Wits and Weights, the show that helps you build a strong, healthy physique using evidence, engineering and efficiency.

Philip Pape: 1:12

I'm your host, philip Pape, and today we are tackling something that I see all the time in coaching and online discussions, social media, and that is the false divide between training for health and training for aesthetics. And you've probably heard things before like focus on your health, not how you look, or train for performance, not appearance, and these are all well-meaning statements that are, in some cases, trying to focus you on a goal which is completely understandable, but in many cases, it creates a false choice that leaves a lot of people I'm sure, yourself included, feeling guilty because you want both and you always feel kind of torn between them. And then you might come to me saying, hey, which one do I do next? But let's talk about what the actual research says, because I effectively want to give you some permission to embrace both. And what if I told you that the research actually shows a substantial overlap between what makes us healthy and what makes us look good? And that's what we're looking at today. We're going to examine why it is completely fine, even beneficial, to pursue aesthetic goals alongside health goals, and why they are often the same exact journey.

Philip Pape: 2:22

Whether you're trying to build muscle, lose fat, improve your overall body composition, I want you to walk away understanding why these pursuits both serve your health and your happiness. And, before we get into it, if you are ready to transform your physique in a way that optimizes both health and aesthetics, I want to encourage you to join our Wits and Weights Physique University. Now, the name of that program, physique, can be a little misleading, because people again think looks, look like you lift, that's great. But we also take a science-backed, systematic, systematic, systematic approach to building your ideal body, one that looks great and functions optimally, because, again. They go together so you can join, get two weeks free, kick the tires, get your first challenge, free access to your custom nutrition plan. For me, um, all the things for free, right from day one, full access. Just go to wits and weightscom, slash physique or click the link in the show notes. Yeah, there's lots of other things in there, like custom workout programs dropped every month. There's a monthly challenge. There's, of course, a very supportive community where you can be vulnerable and share what's going on and get help in a private setting and keep you accountable. So witsandweightscom slash physique, click the link in the show notes and again, just transparently. As far as pricing, once the free trial is over, it's87 a month. I mean, you're not going to find something that is pretty close to one-on-one coaching where I'm extremely involved as a coach for that price.

Philip Pape: 3:50

So remember, looking good, being healthy or not, competing goals, they're complementary and that's what we're talking about today and it's also what we teach in Physique University. All right, so let's get into why. It is perfectly fine to chase aesthetics and break it down into three sections. I like to be organized. So the first section we are going to explore this false dichotomy right that is abstract and created by the industry, I would say or created by coaches in many cases between health and aesthetics. Second, we are going to examine the science showing the overlap between aesthetic goals and health markers, and then, finally, we're going to discuss how to approach aesthetic goals in a balanced and sustainable way, because what we are not pushing here is some sort of extreme get shredded and, uh, wreck your hormones type of approach. Even if you do have a goal to, say, compete in a bodybuilding show or something like that, which is an extreme um, there are ways where you're living day to day where you can chase both goals, All right.

Philip Pape: 4:51

So, starting with the false dichotomy, there is a narrative that you must choose between training for health or training for looks, and when I did my coaching certification, we learned something called the iron triangle. Is it the iron triangle? Yes, I think that's what it is, and I actually still. I still teach that, I still talk to my clients about it. It's the idea that if you want to improve, say, your aesthetics, there's a point in time where you're going to have to focus more on fat loss than on trying to push your gains, but there's also time you're going to focus more on gains to build that muscle base before we go to fat loss. So in that perspective, yes, there are some trade-offs that always have to be made if you're going to go all after a specific goal in the short term. But in the long or in the medium term not even the long term, the medium term, like a year or two out you can combine these different periods, what we call periodization and ultimately get the best of it all, doing it in an efficient way.

Philip Pape: 5:49

So that's kind of what I'm talking about today and that's in contrast to what you hear in the industry, like the functional fitness crowd that says you know, aesthetics are shallow pursuits. You always have to have a deeper reason for this, like there's something wrong with you or you have body dysmorphia or disordered whatever, and again, the actual disordered whatever is outside the scope of today's podcast. We are talking about a healthy pursuit of aesthetics, even sometimes for its own goal, and that is okay. On the other hand, you also have physique competitors who push the extremes of aesthetics that might temporarily compromise your health and we talk about on the show, like the cost of going to that extreme. But I think this is a false choice. I think it's like saying that you have to choose between enjoying food and fueling your body and eating nutritiously. Why not both? Why not both? I heard on a podcast recently them talking about the no sugar challenge they were going through and how much of a struggle it was, and I thought well, that's because you're trying to cut something out completely, when, in fact, you can enjoy foods with sugar but also have lots of nutritious foods alongside them and have a great dietary pattern.

Philip Pape: 7:02

So, anyway, the dichotomy probably came up in a few different places. I think the first place is the legitimate reaction against the unhealthy extremes of bodybuilding and physique competitions, and when you see Instagram physiques where competitors might sacrifice health for stage ready appearance. Now there are some people doing this in a very controlled, deliberate, precise way, where there is still a short-term sacrifice to these things, for sure, but they know how to minimize that and they do it in a and I'll call it a healthy way, even though the pursuit itself may still be extreme. Then there's the marketing angle right, the camps, the health longevity camps, the aesthetic stamps. I mean these are to the extreme as well. You have longevity camps talking about not eating very much protein Somehow that helps with longevity, or biohacking to death, my 200 supplement stack or all sorts of gadgets and equipment and programs that sell all these different products and, at the end of the day, they're trying to sell you something. Heck, I'm trying to sell you something. I'm trying to sell you a healthy result that you can live with for the rest of your life, just to be honest. So that's what I'm trying to sell you, that's what I've gotten for myself through lots of hard knocks and hope to accelerate the process for you through this podcast, and do it in a very reasonable, evidence-based, nuanced, personalized way.

Philip Pape: 8:27

And then, finally, we have the well-intentioned but misguided attempt to make fitness more inclusive by downplaying aesthetics right, and again, the attention is good and I get. We all need our boogeyman and it's great for a clickbait or a podcast episode where you're trying to appeal to people who may have self-doubt about their physique at the moment and feel like they can't get there, and so you focus and sit on these other things, or someone who's older and they're like, well, I don't really care how I look, I care more about my bone density or living a long life, and, and that's fine, and again, your personal reason for doing it is your own and I like that. We want fitness to be accessible to everyone. But I think it does inadvertently shame people who do care about their appearance. Again, not you as an individual who's saying that's what you want, but the industry as a whole by somehow calling out people who want to improve their look as a bad thing, calling out people who want to improve their look as a bad thing. And I've worked with numerous clients who you know they initially like they whisper their aesthetic goals right. They almost apologize about it. They say things like well, I know I should really focus on health and being a role model for my kids and living a long life, but I really want to see my abs too. And they say it like with some guilt and shame, as if this desire is something to be embarrassed about. But that desire is not shallow, it is human, it is normal and it's often aligned with health. There's often a biological drive for why we want to look good. Let's just admit that. Okay, and I know looking good is very subjective, but there's aspects of it that are actually universal and objective that we can get into. So this brings us to the second segment today, which is the quite remarkable overlap between aesthetic goals and health markers. That even I was surprised about when I researched for this episode.

Philip Pape: 10:17

And again, let's just go and look what the science tells us. Let's first talk about body composition, which is one of the main emphases Is that plural for emphasis? Emphasis of this show is not focusing on weight loss, but focusing on body composition. The composition of body fat to lean mass and body fat percentages that are, I'll say, typically considered aesthetically pleasing, based on studies and people's reporting and surveys, is around 10 to 15% for men and around 18 to 23% for women. And guess what? Those body fat ranges align almost perfectly with optimal health markers, where maintaining body fat in these ranges correlates with better insulin sensitivity, improved hormonal profiles, reduced inflammation, lower risk of chronic diseases like heart disease, diabetes, certain cancers. I mean we know that the vast majority of these things are correlated with obesity, which is correlated with lifestyle, and it's all connected. So there was a study in 2019 in the European Heart Journal that found that body fat percentage was a stronger predictor of heart disease risk than BMI alone. And there have just been so many studies that show that and it's probably obvious at this point to many of us, especially when we talk about how BMI is not sufficient usually to detect some of these risks. You know, body roundness and body fat tend to be better indicators and the sweet spot for the lowest risk of heart disease is right in the range. That is also what most people consider visually appealing, right.

Philip Pape: 11:55

Again, this is trying to make this a little more objective and numbers-based. And then, if we look at the muscle mass side so that's body fat we look at the muscle mass side. You know the, the defined muscular physique that many pursue, that I'm still pursuing, raising my hand, like I. I didn't start pursuing it properly until my forties and I'm only 44 and I have a long way to go. Like my goal is to keep getting younger every year and notice younger means look good and feel good and perform well and be healthier. Uh, but anyway it's it. Anyway it's not just for show, even though many pursue it for that, especially younger dudes, let's say, or certain you know, if you're going for competitive aspirations, higher muscle mass We've talked about it many times on this show, but I can emphasize again it's associated with improved metabolic health, better glucose control, stronger immune function, even reduced mortality.

Philip Pape: 12:46

Right, not in and of itself right, we still need to have a reasonable level of body fat, right. We can't go to the other extreme and say it's only about muscle. But you've got to have muscle is kind of my point. There's a 2018 meta-analysis in the Journal of Kachexia, sarcopenia and Muscle that found that higher muscle mass was associated with lower all-cause mortality. And that's just again. I'm picking individual studies. Try to focusing on meta-analysis where they look at multiple studies, but you probably don't need me to convince you that muscle mass is important, even like superficial abs, right.

Philip Pape: 13:21

Having a six-pack or eight-pack or whatever that many of us chase can have health significance. When we flip it a little bit and talk about visceral fat around your organs your abdominal fat, which is metabolically more active and associated with increased inflammation and disease risk and all sorts of health issues so you could argue that a visible six pack doesn't just look good. It indicates lower visceral fat and therefore better health. It doesn't mean you have to get to the point of that level of being shredded. I do want to give that caveat. It just means that if you are lean in your belly area, there's probably some things you're doing right from a health perspective, assuming you haven't gone to like an extreme of getting too shredded right Now.

Philip Pape: 14:06

What about the process of getting there? Well, the method used to improve aesthetics resistance training, proper nutrition, are exactly what anyone, including health authorities, most fitness professionals myself recommend for optimal health. Like, resistance training is a non-negotiable in my opinion. Right, yes, being active, yes, moving, yes, managing sleep and stress, but resistance training is non-negotiable. And I would say sufficient protein and nutrients are the other non-negotiable that has a little bit more flexibility in what we mean.

Philip Pape: 14:42

It's not like binary, in the same way that resistance training is binary. Like you have to do that, um, it's more the levels that you need. Uh, but there is no other path there. There is no other path, right, you can't. You can't improve your health and longevity with running. In fact, you probably are going to set it back. You can't improve it with just yoga or just mindfulness and meditation, and I say just because those things are all great, not the running, but you know, walking is far superior, of course, for fat loss and longevity and health.

Philip Pape: 15:13

But all those other things for your mental state, fine, you can do, them, great, but they are not going to give you what you need without strength training and the quote, unquote, functional strength that we've touched on just here and there I'm not a big fan of the word. We had Lorenzo, um, lauren, lauren, colenzo Semple on from mass talking all about that topic. Right, it's a real misnomer in the industry, um, but the Any program that purports to develop functional strength is probably doing so through some form of resistance training. Even the things that I don't like so much, like CrossFit, the strength and the barbell, part of that is still thinking in terms of, hey, we need to load you up and push those muscles and challenge you. The only difference is how they're marketed and then also whether they achieve that efficiently. But you've got to resistance train, you've got to have proper nutrition, and those give you good aesthetics and good health.

Philip Pape: 16:06

So now let's touch on something that is often overlooked or maybe not talked about enough, and that is the psychological benefits of aestheticals, not the detriments. Right, we know we can talk about the dark side, but I care about how we look matters to us psychologically, because I wouldn't want you to pursue a goal like that if it was harmful to your mental health. Studies consistently show that body image impacts our mental health. It impacts your self-confidence and your well-being, which is why it's so important. Which way do we push the needle on this? There was a 2020 review in Body Image that found that satisfaction was associated with no, I'm sorry that body satisfaction was associated with better mental health outcomes across the board. Right, when we achieve our aesthetic goals, we often experience more confidence, reduced anxiety, greater satisfaction with ourselves, and so, to me, these are not shallow outcomes. These are legitimate psychological benefits.

Philip Pape: 17:11

Right, we focus a lot on things like body positivity and people's self-doubt and negative self-talk about their bodies, but we don't focus enough on the fact that those same people probably want to improve their. But we don't focus enough on the fact that those same people probably want to improve their body as well and need to be encouraged in a positive way to go. Do that, not shame them for it, but also not settle for where they are now. There's always a way to improve, and I've seen clients transform massively, not just physically, but mentally, when they achieve the physique that they've worked for, and it's okay. That's why I'm making this show, guys. It's okay to go after that because, at the end of the day, they all serve the same purpose.

Philip Pape: 17:52

Right, there are things like changes in your posture that have profound impacts not just on health, but also confidence. Right, I hear from clients how they're able to engage more confidently in a social situation. Maybe it's because people judge you for how you look. Maybe it's simply because they know they're accomplishing something that very few other people are and they can stand tall and proud. Right, maybe they haven't lost all the body fat or gotten to exactly where they want, but the change and the process and method are really what's bringing them the confidence right. Lifting heavy not even heavy, just lifting at all and making progress. And they often say look, I feel more capable in this area of my life, this area of my life, my relationships, my friends with my job okay, those are positive.

Philip Pape: 18:40

Now, let's not deny, let's not be delusional about the unhealthy extremes that could occur. Body dysmorphia and eating disorders are out there. They are serious concerns, right? Holly Baxter talked about her own past with eating disorders and she's a physique competitor, but she does it in the right way. Now you know, pursuing reasonable aesthetic goals as part of a balanced approach to fitness does not cause these issues. Let's be clear it can actually improve your body image when approached in a healthy, constructive way, which is exactly why I don't like restrictive dieting, crash diets, demonizing foods, moving ahead with poor relationships to food, because they're all tied into your body, your safety, your security, your self-image, all of that. But if we can make the process itself positive, we can make the outcome that comes from it, of improved body image, also positive. Does that make sense? I hope that makes sense. It does to me. Maybe I'm off my rocker. I think it makes sense.

Philip Pape: 19:41

Then there's the evolutionary angle. That's worth considering. You know I mentioned biology. I think it's important to touch on because our appreciation for these you know, beauty standards or aesthetic qualities it isn't arbitrary, like it's deeply rooted in biological signals of health and reproductive fitness. There's a reason that we are attracted to certain people from a young age, I mean around the time of puberty. Look back to it and just think about the hormonal chaos you had in your teenage years and how you're attracted to certain forms of things that you find beautiful. Right, and don't be ashamed of that.

Philip Pape: 20:16

From an evolutionary standpoint, visual cues of health, clear skin, symmetrical features, favorable body composition have been valuable indicators of genetic fitness. This is evolution. Our ancestors couldn't run blood panels, they didn't do DEXA scans, obviously, they didn't even have like barbells to lift, but they relied on visual cues to assess health when selecting a mate. And again, it's a little bit subjective, right, there have been times when being on the heavier side was actually considered valuable and a sign of health, robustness and wealth too. So it's not to say that this is a perfect correlation by any means. Let's acknowledge that. But there are biological reasons nonetheless. So when you find yourself drawn to a certain physique, whether it's muscle definition or a particular body shape or overall leanness, you're probably responding unconsciously to deeply ingrained biological signals that historically correlated with health and genetic fitness. Right, the ability to spread your seeds, to pass along your DNA to offspring who will have the best chance of surviving in the world.

Philip Pape: 21:29

Now, that doesn't mean that all beauty standards are biologically determined. Again, nuance guys. Nuance, right. Don't hold me to a what do you call it? Soundbite. That's why I like long form here.

Philip Pape: 21:41

Right, cultural factors play a huge role. Let's acknowledge that, right. If we understand the evolutionary basis that's like the baseline we can then help explain why certain physique goals persist across cultures and time periods and they tend to cycle back and forth but stay within kind of a range. And then it also suggests that our desire to look a certain way is not shallow. It is also not culturally imposed, right, it is partially hardwired and that's nothing to be ashamed of Like. Just acknowledging reality of your biology is nothing to be ashamed of.

Philip Pape: 22:15

So now let's talk about how to approach aesthetic goals in a balanced, sustainable way that actually enhances health rather than compromise and I include mental health in there, for sure, body image. So first, recognize, health and aesthetics exist on a spectrum, right, they're not in opposition, they're not mutually exclusive, and that goes back to the whole triangle idea where you have trade-offs and you can't, you can't pursue all in parallel to the nth degree, you know, to the 10th degree, whatever, I'm trying to say, to the maximum degree. And they're on a spectrum, but they're not exclusive, they're not an opposition. The methods stack on each other. The methods that improve your health markers, like your nutrition, your resistance training, having adequate sleep, managing your stress, also enhance aesthetics up to a point. It's only at those extremes, like bodybuilding, competition prep or extreme endurance training, right, marathon runners, long distance runners where the true exclusive trade-offs might appear, if I'm to put it that way. I mean, you know that just visually you look at a marathon, an elite marathon runner. They probably don't have a physique that most people aspire to. Let's be honest, right. And then you look at somebody who's an extreme bodybuilding competitor, especially enhanced, because if you're enhanced on steroids now you're messing with your health in other ways. But even if they're not, they've made some sacrifices to their health and longevity. Yes, at least in the moment. A lot of it is recoverable, but at least in the moment to get there. So we're not really talking about that. For the vast majority of us in the middle you know 95% pursuing both simultaneously aesthetics and health is not only possible, but it's actually optimal. It's optimal. So I wanna give you that permission to go after them together.

Philip Pape: 24:05

The second thing is you want to set goals that serve both purposes and make sure they're logical, they're rational, right. So instead of saying I want six-pack abs or I want to lower my cholesterol, try. I want to achieve a lean, muscular physique that reflects and supports optimal health. This is the framing, and again, we're talking about the big goal. We're not necessarily talking about the short-term goals. This is a framing, positive framing. It acknowledges both aspects but doesn't privilege one over the other. So I'll say that again, if you want to repeat it with me as kind of a mantra. I want to achieve a lean, muscular physique that reflects and supports optimal health. Just one way to do it. You might put it in your own words.

Philip Pape: 24:45

And then, third, I want you to use metrics and data that capture both health and aesthetics. You knew I would get to this eventually. We're all about engineering data, measuring, tracking, experimenting and doing what works for you. So body composition, which is the ratio of fat to lean mass, is going to be far more informative than weight alone, even though you need to track weight as well. Now, I don't get hung up in trying to exactly calculate body fat. It's more of the change in your body composition over time. Are you building muscle and losing fat? Is your waist shrinking while your biceps are growing, for example? Right, and a lot of this comes through look and feel and performance, as well as proxies for body composition.

Philip Pape: 25:25

Speaking of performance metrics, what are those? Strength? There could be some cardiovascular metrics, but I prefer things like stress metrics, hrv, as opposed to, say, vo2 max. I think that is much less useful, especially if you're looking for body composition improvement. If you're looking for body composition improvement, Um, but resting heart rate is a good metric for health for sure, right, blood markers like lipids, uh, and what did I say? Yeah, um, and your blood pressure, even your movement quality, and it's kind of how do you? How do you track that? Well, some of you may have issues with your joints and you can track the level of pain or level of mobility in those joints and how that improves over time. Right, many people they start lifting, their back pain goes away, their knees feel better, their elbows, their shoulders feel better to a point, right, unless you go too extreme in the other direction. So you can track all of these things and then you know that's just tracking.

Philip Pape: 26:16

And then how do you put all this together to make sense? Well, that's where the sustainability comes in, and I kind of I feel like I overused that word and we're not talking about energy sustainability. We're talking about can it be sustained for life, not just for a year or three years or five years, but for life. It's going to cycle through. You're going to have different sub goals and periodization where you go to more extremes in different directions, but overall it's still a sustainable approach.

Philip Pape: 26:40

Crash diets are not sustainable, right? Even if you want to go after a very rapid, aggressive fat loss phase, which is something that I can teach you to do for an advanced person who's done all the other things first. We're still going to do it in a way that doesn't harm your health, that maintains your muscle, that maintains your protein, that gives you refeeds for your energy and that keeps it really, really short, right? I'm talking about crash diets like restrictive diets, where you're not really in control. You're just cutting, cutting, cutting. You lose a bunch of weight really fast. It might temporarily improve your appearance Probably not, because you're probably going to lose muscle along with some fat, and it's going to harm your health anyway. It's going to wreck everything.

Philip Pape: 27:20

To be honest, extreme exercise same idea, lots of cardio, right? Put that in the equation. I just spoke to someone yesterday on a rapid nutrition assessment and I could tell exactly what her problem was. She tries to lift weights seven days a week and it's like a YouTube workout and she's with like 10-pound dumbbells, right. So right there, I know she's doing a cardio endurance type approach. It's probably stressing her out and it's not building muscle. So it has both of the opposite of what we want when it comes to aesthetics and health.

Philip Pape: 27:51

Again, because they are aligned and show up for fairly easily I'm going to put it that way easily, even though there's always effort involved, but fairly low friction, where you are progressing gradually in a way that serves both health and aesthetics, without getting so extreme and losing patience that you haven't gotten it all tomorrow. So I'm getting a little long-winded today, but I think this is an important topic and I did want to share something that might surprise you a bit about the relationship between aesthetic goals and everyday life. And it's a pretty cool thing that I've learned talking to very skilled bodybuilders, physique competitors I think of, for example oh my gosh, revive Stronger. You guys know who that is. What's his name? Host of Revive Stronger. He was on the show man I am blanking out right now, I'm not going to look it up anyway. He, um, steve Steve Hall. There we go. He was.

Philip Pape: 28:53

He and Dr Eric Helms and others like him, um have demonstrated how the skills and the mindset you develop while pursuing aesthetic goals can transfer really well to other areas of life. I think there's a little bit of a push, a little bit of an extreme that we go after with some of this, and I hate to use the word extreme, it's just discomfort, expanding your comfort zone and pushing yourself to grow the essence of the struggle, of the human condition. For those of us who really love and relish life every day, it's because we are going after it. We are improving something, maybe everything all day in some meaningful way. We have purpose right. And so that skill, that mindset, it applies pretty darn well to aesthetic goals, to strength, to performance, all of it, even if you do shift around in the very micro goals that you pursue.

Philip Pape: 29:44

Think about what it takes to transform your physique Consistent effort over time, delayed gratification, patience, strategic planning, but also measuring your progress and adapting to the challenges, to the plan, like the black line versus blue line thinking that I talked about on a recent episode, managing setbacks, all of that. These are not just fitness skills, they are life skills, and I've worked with a lot of clients who didn't really have that baseline of those skills in their life in general. And by going through that process together for health, voila guess what? Now they've got confidence and a system and an approach that they can apply to learning an instrument, becoming a better gardener, becoming a leader in work, improving their relationship the list goes on and on. It's incredible, and I've observed clients who transform their physiques and the language.

Philip Pape: 30:39

The narrative that comes out of their mouth evolves to this almost sometimes shock at the improvements that they have that were unexpected in their careers, relationships or personal projects. It's kind of like something I've experienced on a smaller level when I joined Toastmasters years ago and I worked on my speaking skills and I thought, well, I'm going to become a better presenter by doing this. No, it was far more than that. I became more confident in every meeting at work. I could speak to you know, executives and customers in a way that I felt like their peer and that we could really engage in an intellectual level, all because I could communicate.

Philip Pape: 31:15

So don't discount the discipline, the systems, thinking, the growth mindset that you can develop through physique transformation. We're not going after short-term before and after photos here. We are going for long-term transformation in who you are, your identity, your systems. I can remember a client who lost a decent amount of weight and by weight I mean fat and built a bunch of muscle at the same time, and he said you know, something like I used to think that I couldn't stick with anything hard. Right, that was his identity. Now I know I can commit to something long-term and then see it through and he just he had to go through this process, and I think the physique development process is a good way to do it because it can give you a lot of quick wins along the way and your physique will change, like it. It just will, if you do this right.

Philip Pape: 32:08

And if it's not, if you're listening to this or watching this right now and you're like, yeah, but that hasn't happened for me, you just don't have the right approach and that's okay. Like that's not a judgment on you, that's an objective fact that I want you to get on board with me about and say, okay. Well then, I know that Philip is telling me there is an approach that'll work. What the heck is that? Talk about that on this podcast, but you're always welcome to reach out to me one-on-one. I'm not going to bite. Hit me up in the Facebook group, send me a message on Instagram at Wits and Weights. Send me a question at witsandweightscom slash question and I'll talk to you like a person, like a human, about what it takes. I'll send you a free episode or resource. I'm not here to sell you anything. If you need my help, you'll ask for it.

Philip Pape: 32:49

Another client that I can think of that came to mind. She had a thing at work where she wanted to have a promotion or she wanted to get into a leadership role, mainly because she was super stressed at what she was doing. I get this a lot with clients who they're stressed in their jobs and part of the thing we work through is are you even in the right role right now, or is there a way we can mitigate this with everything else you're doing? By the way, lifting weights tends to reduce your stress anyway. But she said, you know, I was confident enough because of the physical transformation and, mind you, she didn't lose a lot of weight on the scale, but she built muscle, improved her physique, had a better posture, just felt like she could go after it. And then she went and asked and she got the promotion right, like stuff like that really makes me happy and proud for them, because this transfer effect it's not anecdotal. I mean research shows this consistently.

Philip Pape: 33:40

I did some training in positive psychology and it is clear that self-efficacy, your belief in your ability to succeed, generalizes across domains. Okay, success in one challenging area builds confidence that transfers to others. So why not do it with your body? Because then you get all sorts of benefits, including a long lifespan and healthspan. That then translates to other things. It's pretty awesome, right? So when you pursue aesthetic goals in a healthy, systematic way that's what we're talking about You're not just building a better body, right. You are building better life capabilities and profound benefits that go far beyond the superficial. All right. So let's wrap it up here, and I want to emphasize the key message it's perfectly fine to chase aesthetics. In fact, it's normal, it's healthy. It is often in fact, almost always aligned with optimal health outcomes.

Philip Pape: 34:30

The body composition that looks good in the mirror is typically the same one that produces favorable health markers. Yes, you'll go through periods where you carry a little extra body fat. Some of the numbers start to drift and you're doing it on purpose, to build muscle. But then you come back the other way you lose some fat and, all of a sudden, everything is even better than it was before. Plus, you tend to eat more food and carry a little more body weight without having to worry about it. The training right, the strength training that builds the physique is the same training that enhances your capability, your function, your hormones, your longevity building muscle. If you're not doing that, I'm sorry. You are just not going to have this result. There's no way to do it. Otherwise, the nutrition that reveals your muscle definition, right Fat loss and maintaining a healthy body weight is the same approach that supports internal health. When you're getting enough nutrients, enough protein, enough hydration, enough, you know, just energy, calories, that's healthy. So let go of any guilt that you might feel about wanting to look good right now. Let it go. Let go. You can look good, it's okay. You can want to look good, it's okay.

Philip Pape: 35:40

Embrace the aesthetic goals and just think of it as a comprehensive part or a part of your comprehensive approach to fitness. It honors. It honors how your body looks and how it functions together. So remember three principles. I'm going to leave you with this. Three principles One health and aesthetics are not opposing forces. They complement each other and they largely overlap. Number two the methods. The process that produces optimal health also creates an appealing physique as a byproduct. And number three pursuing reasonable aesthetic goals. Right, I said reasonable aesthetic goals can also provide psychological, mental health benefits and life skills that extend way beyond fitness to everything in your life. And when you approach it this way, thoughtfully, patiently, the pursuit of an aesthetic physique does not detract from health but enhances it in so many ways, and that is something worth striving for as a human being on this earth. So get after it.

Philip Pape: 36:40

And one way to get after it is to transform your physique using evidence in a systematic way, tracking it the right way, and we help you do that in Wits and Weights Physique University. We give you a personalized nutrition plan when you join. So here's how it works. You join, you get a nice prescriptive set of steps from me, an onboarding course where you submit an intake literally on day one. You could do it within minutes. I look at that within a couple of days. Give you back a plan that shows you how to map out all of this stuff.

Philip Pape: 37:11

Okay, and it it can be overwhelming at first. So what we do is we guide you through step-by-step. Here's how you track this. Here's how you track that. Here's the one thing you want to start this week. And then here's how to stay accountable. You want to check in every week with us and, yeah, there's a lot of bells and whistles and courses and challenges and all that. You don't have to do any of that. Just come join us, get the plan.

Philip Pape: 37:32

I mean, that alone is worth a year in the program, in my opinion, and I've had people cancel in the first two weeks because maybe they said they couldn't afford it or they weren't sure if the program was for them. And I'll say here I'm going to give you a plan anyway as a parting gift. And I've had a few of those people then say, oh wait, this is actually super valuable. I want to stay in and find out how to apply it to my life. So join now. It's a free trial for two weeks. You get to kick the tires. You could get your nutrition plan as part of that and, even if you cancel, you got it for free.

Philip Pape: 38:02

Go to witsandweightscom slash physique or click the link in the show notes Again witsandweightscom slash physique. And there's a demo there. By the way right, I don't keep anything hidden there's a video of me walking you through with a screen. Share what the heck the program looks like. So there's no risk whatsoever. Give it a shot. Remember that looking good and being healthy are not competing goals, right, they are complimentary, and I definitely want to show you how to achieve both. But for now and until next time, keep using your wits lifting those weights and remember that pursuing an aesthetic physique is not shallow or vain. When approached properly, it is a natural expression of your desire to optimize your body's appearance and function. This is Philip Pape and I'll talk to you next time here on the Wits and Weights Podcast.

Are Low-Carb Diets Spiking Your Cortisol and Tanking Your Metabolism? | Ep 311

Download your free Nutrition 101 for Body Composition guide at witsandweights.com/free to learn exactly how to set up your macros (including CARBS!), calories, and meal timing to support your metabolism.

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Your "healthy" low-carb diet might be secretly working against you by elevating your stress hormones and slowing your metabolism.

Beyond the immediate effects of energy crashes and stalled weight loss, emerging research reveals a deeper, more concerning connection between carb restriction, stress hormones, and metabolic health.

If you've been experiencing (or want to avoid) energy crashes, stalled fat loss, or feeling unusually stressed, there could be a physiological connection between your carbohydrate intake and cortisol levels that's sabotaging your results.

This episode reveals the research-backed connection between low-carb diets and elevated cortisol, and how this hormonal response can trigger a cascade of metabolic effects that make fat loss harder, not easier.

Discover the optimal carb approach that supports your metabolism, thyroid function, and training performance while keeping stress hormones in check.

Main Takeaways:

• Low-carb diets trigger a stress response that elevates cortisol, even without a calorie deficit

• Chronically elevated cortisol can suppress hormones and slow your metabolic rate

• Carb timing can help manage cortisol levels

• Carbs should be reintroduced gradually if you've been on a very low-carb diet

Episode Resources:

• Download the Nutrition 101 for Body Composition guide

• Try MacroFactor for free with code WITSANDWEIGHTS

Timestamps:

0:00 - Why low-carb diets might be working against you
2:25 - The hidden connection between carbs, stress, and metabolism
4:13 - How carb restriction increases cortisol levels
7:04 - Impact on thyroid function and metabolic rate
9:39 - What happens to workouts and performance
12:49 - Finding your optimal carb intake
17:23 - Tips to reintroduce (or increase) carbs in your diet
22:58 - The bidirectional relationship between cortisol and metabolism

The Hidden Link Between Low-Carb Diets, High Cortisol, and a Slower Metabolism

If you've been on a low-carb diet and feel like your fat loss has stalled—or worse, you're gaining weight despite eating "clean"—there may be something deeper going on. We’re not just talking about energy dips or missing out on your favorite foods. We’re talking about what happens to your hormones and metabolism when you restrict carbs too aggressively, for too long.

And it’s not good.

In this episode of Wits & Weights, we’re looking at how chronic low-carb diets can spike cortisol, suppress thyroid function, and tank your metabolism—even if you’re not in a calorie deficit. If that sounds counterintuitive, it’s because most people have been sold the myth that carbs are the enemy. But your physiology tells a very different story.

Why Your Body Sees Low-Carb as Stress

Let’s start with this simple fact: Your body sees severe carb restriction as a threat. Whether you’re eating fewer than 50g of carbs a day on keto, doing “lazy low-carb,” or cycling in and out without much structure, your body perceives this as a form of physiological stress.

When carbs are low:

• Glucose becomes scarce (especially for your brain and muscles)

• Cortisol (your stress hormone) ramps up to maintain energy balance

• Your metabolism starts shifting into conservation mode

In one study published in the Journal of Clinical Endocrinology and Metabolism, participants on a low-carb diet saw significantly elevated cortisol levels compared to a moderate-carb group—even when calories were the same.

So this isn’t just about dieting. It’s about how your body responds to macronutrient balance, especially if you’re already stressed from work, training, or poor sleep.

Cortisol Isn’t Just a Stress Hormone—it Affects Your Thyroid and Metabolism

Elevated cortisol over time can suppress your thyroid stimulating hormone (TSH), which in turn reduces your T3—the hormone responsible for keeping your metabolism running efficiently.

This means:

• Fewer calories burned at rest

• Slower fat loss (even at the same intake)

• More muscle breakdown (catabolism)

• A cycle of fatigue, cravings, and poor recovery

A suppressed metabolic rate doesn’t just make fat loss harder. It can also create a false plateau, where you’re technically in a deficit but your body has adapted and slowed down energy output to match.

And no, it’s not just “water weight” from carb depletion. That’s part of it, sure, but the underlying issue is hormonal strain—especially if you're also dieting, training hard, or under psychological stress.

Common Symptoms of Chronic Low-Carb Stress

If any of these sound familiar, your carb intake might be too low:

• Constant fatigue, especially after workouts

• Poor sleep or trouble falling asleep

• Feeling “wired but tired” at night

• Digestive issues or food sensitivities

• Constant food cravings

• Flat, unmotivated training sessions

• Mood swings or anxiety

Even if your weight loss started strong, it may have hit a wall. That’s likely your cortisol talking.

Why Moderate Carbs Support a Healthier Metabolism

When you start increasing carbs—especially around training and in the evening—research shows that you can:

• Reduce circulating cortisol

• Improve thyroid hormone output (especially T3)

• Support better sleep and recovery

• Increase glycogen stores for training performance

• Reduce food cravings and promote satiety

Most active individuals who strength train should get 30–40% of their calories from carbs, or simply structure their meals so that carbs fill in the rest after hitting protein and fat targets. This allows you to eat for performance, recovery, mood, and metabolism—not just the scale.

When Is It OK to Go Lower on Carbs?

There are times when carbs will dip—mainly during aggressive fat loss phases. But even then:

• Keep carbs as high as you can while maintaining a calorie deficit

• Make sure protein is anchored and fat intake is sufficient

• Time carbs around your workouts for energy and recovery

• Don’t diet so aggressively that your carbs drop to zero

And always remember: fat loss is about energy balance, not carb restriction. Cutting carbs isn’t magic—it just reduces calories (and water weight). The rest is mostly hormonal chaos.

How to Transition Off a Low-Carb Diet (Without Gaining Weight)

If you’ve been low-carb for a while, here’s how to increase carbs without derailing progress:

1. Titrate slowly: Start by adding 25g/day for a week. Then increase again if needed. This gives your gut, metabolism, and blood sugar time to adjust.

2. Pull from fat first: If your fat intake is high (which it probably is on low-carb), reduce fat slightly as you increase carbs to keep total calories stable.

3. Time carbs wisely: Prioritize carbs around training and dinner. This improves performance and recovery while managing cortisol and sleep.

4. Track your biofeedback: Energy, sleep, mood, hunger, training performance—monitor them closely before and after adding carbs.

5. Focus on whole foods: Fruits, potatoes, rice, oats, whole grains—these bring fiber, hydration, and micronutrients, not just calories.

Carbs are a tool. When used right, they support not just energy and performance but also the hormonal balance that drives fat loss and muscle retention.

It’s Not About Being Anti-Low-Carb

This episode isn’t here to demonize low-carb diets. For some people, they may still have a role. But if you’ve been stuck, fatigued, or frustrated with your progress—and you’re not eating enough carbs—it’s time to question the dogma.

Because if your metabolism is running on fumes, you’re not just making fat loss harder… you’re making everything harder.

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Transcript

Philip Pape: 0:00

We've talked about the benefits of carbs for muscle, for energy, for performance but what about the detriments of a low-carb diet in and of itself? Many times, people who are on a low-carb diet will experience energy crashes, stalls in their weight loss, stalls in their performance in the gym, and there's a reason for this that we don't often talk about. That has to do with cortisol and your metabolic rate. So today we are talking about how your quote-unquote healthy low-carb diet might be working against you, and then how to have a more flexible approach that you're probably going to enjoy more anyway and will help you get the results you want. Welcome to Wits and Weights, the show that helps you build a strong, healthy physique using evidence, engineering and efficiency. I'm your host, philip Pape, and today we're talking about carbs again, but from a different angle. There is a connection between lower-carb diets and both cortisol and your metabolic rate. That I think is really, really important and causes things like stalled fat loss, like crashing energy, feeling unusually stressed, and many people experience these symptoms, but they don't connect them to their carbohydrate intake. The research now suggests that there is a physiological reason for this. There is a hormonal chain reaction that can slow your metabolism and potentially make fat loss harder, not easier. Obviously, anything that reduces your expenditure, your metabolism, the amount of calories you burn every day, is going to make this harder, because you're going to have to eat less, potentially to maintain the deficit, or you're going to have slower fat loss at the same intake. And, of course, the less you eat, the less energy you have, the hungrier you are. There's a cascade of things that are just not good. We always want a higher level of energy, a higher level of energy flux, even when we're trying to go for a fat loss. And while the keto community, the low carb communities, everyone who's just low carb, maybe even carnivore they often dismiss these concerns or they say that there are other reasons. The evidence is becoming harder and harder to ignore, not to mention the outcomes. Right, when we see something like people on higher carb diets can build a lot more muscle, there's a reason they have more energy coming in, more recovery ability. But there are also negatives in the other direction when you have low carbs that prevent the fat loss you're trying to achieve.

Philip Pape: 2:25

And I'm not here to demonize low carb approaches. I never do. I never demonize low carb in and of itself. What I say is that you want to eat in a way that supports what you need and what you want, and many people. What they need is more energy, more performance, more recovery. They want to build muscle. What you want is foods that you enjoy, a lifestyle right To be able to go out to eat, to be able to not say no all the time. So when you combine these together for most people that generally means moderate to higher carbs and you can absolutely get all the amazing body composition results you want. Doing that. We talk about it all the time.

Philip Pape: 3:00

So I'm not here to demonize low carb. I want to look at it through the lens of evidence and engineering to find a balanced, sustainable approach for you. So you understand what you're getting into. And before we get into all of that, if you just want the guide to learn exactly how to set up your macros and your calories and everything else, I do have a guide that is super popular. It's on flexible dieting and you can use the link in the show notes or go to witsandweightscom slash free, I think. On that page. It's called Nutrition 101 for Body Composition, but it's the same idea. It will help you implement the principles we discussed today in a very practical, step-by-step way for you and just go download that using the link in the show notes.

Philip Pape: 3:39

So let's talk about this. I'll call it hidden connection between your carb intake, your stress and your metabolism. And it helps to understand what happens in your body when you significantly restrict carbohydrates, because at its core, your body receives or perceives severe carb restriction as a form of stress. The fact that you don't quote unquote need carbs to survive is a red herring, right, because we're not trying to just survive, we're trying to thrive. We're trying to have all the things that we want to achieve our goals and live a great life.

Philip Pape: 4:13

And research has consistently shown that low carbohydrate diets increase cortisol. What is cortisol? It's effectively the stress hormone, and a study published in the Journal of Clinical Endocrinology and Metabolism found that, when compared to a moderate carb diet, low-carb approaches led to significantly higher cortisol concentrations over an eight-week intervention period. And cortisol is what allows you to respond to threats. So when your carbohydrate intake drops too low, or it's intentionally low, your body faces a few challenges. First of all, glucose availability for your brain and muscles goes down. Secondly, your body has to find alternative fuel. And thirdly, this then requires substantial adaptation in your metabolism, and all of these trigger a stress response. There is research that shows cortisol levels consistently increase on a keto diet, and keto is essentially an extreme form of carb restriction, and the reason this matters is because chronically elevated cortisol is linked to a ton of negative effects.

Philip Pape: 5:15

I know we've talked about stress often on this podcast, but it can't be understated how impactful stress is to your metabolism and, conversely, to metabolic dysfunction. When it's high and low-carb, folks are going to say that, hey, you know, this is going to be temporary. Right, this cortisol increase is temporary. It's part of adaptation and there's always some truth to that when there's ever any change to your lifestyle. But for many people, especially when you have other forms of stress, which is pretty much everybody, every human being who has work, family, even your training, is stress. This is just additional hormonal strain on top of that stack of stress. That is going to become problematic when you sustain it right, when you sustain it, and this is regardless of weight loss. Okay, so we're not even talking about just when you're in a calorie deficit. We're talking about when you're not in a calorie deficit and you're restricting carbs. It is going to increase your cortisol levels compared to a moderate fat or moderate carb diet, right? So, in other words, the cortisol response is not about the weight loss. It's specifically related to the carb restriction. And that's what brings me to an important point. It's specifically related to the carb restriction, and that's what brings me to an important point.

Philip Pape: 6:26

Your body does not distinguish between different types of stress. Yes, there's all the chronic perceived stress in our life, like your deadline at work. There's the hormetic or acute stressor, like your intense training session. There's stress from doing too much cardio some of us have right and then there's stress when you're dieting. But when you're not dieting, there's also stress from severe carb restriction, regardless. And guess what? It all triggers the same hormonal cascade your cortisol levels remain chronically elevated, and then this affects your metabolic rate, which is the next piece of the puzzle, okay, so that's why this is important.

Philip Pape: 7:04

We've established that low-carb diets increase cortisol. Okay, even is the next piece of the puzzle. Okay, so why? That's why this is important. We've established that low carb diets increased cortisol. Okay, even in the absence of a calorie deficit.

Philip Pape: 7:09

So where things get interesting here is that your metabolism, which is made up of multiple components, one of which is just your BMR, your basal metabolic rate, which is like two thirds of your daily calorie burn. It's the foundation of your metabolism. If your cortisol is sustained and it's high, right? If, if, what am I trying to say? If you have sustained high cortisol, it is going to suppress your thyroid stimulating hormone, that's your TSH, the production of your TSH, and that then impacts the thyroid hormones that regulate your metabolism. So your thyroid gland right, which is in your neck it's like that butterfly shaped gland. It produces hormones that control how quickly your body burns calories. So it's like a thermoregulator, some people call it, and when cortisol interferes with that, then your metabolic rate is going to slow down. It's all a cascade, right, and so we don't know the exact impact.

Philip Pape: 8:01

But for someone with, like, a resting rate of, let's say, 1200 to 1500 calories, if you had a 20% suppression, then that would be like up to 300 fewer calories a day and that's almost like 30 pounds of weight gain every year or lack of weight loss. You know what I mean Like just to give you the numbers. A few hundred calories a day can make a big difference to many of us, especially smaller people, women, petite women like, whose rates are fairly low. Now it just makes it lower, it makes it even harder.

Philip Pape: 8:31

Also, this isn't just about cortisol, because when you cut carbs, a few other things happen to your metabolism. The first thing is that your body becomes more efficient at conserving energy, and adaptation that's effectively designed to keep you alive during food scarcity and the lack of carbohydrates can give your body the feeling that it doesn't have enough nutrients or enough food or enough energy, even when you're not in a calorie deficit. Again, I'm trying to hammer home the point that this is above and beyond and independent of dieting itself. This is the low carb aspect of it in and of itself. The second thing is that having low carbs means you're going to deplete your glycogen very quickly. That could also result in water loss and, you know, give you the phantom appearance that you've lost weight because it's glycogen, it's water weight, and then it masks what's actually happening, creating the illusion of progress when your metabolism might actually be slowing. And so this is a big problem when you go from higher carbs to lower carbs very quickly. Sometimes that actually happens on purpose when you go into fat loss phase, but when you understand that that happens, it's fine.

Philip Pape: 9:39

The problem is that the glycogen depletion also affects your workouts, your performance, your energy, all of that. That's a different issue, but it still adds to the stress. So if you don't have to be on lower carbs even when you're dieting, it can be helpful. This is why I sometimes ask people to trade off some protein and carbs, depending on the energy that they need. The third thing here is that when you have long-term carb restriction, the research has shown that this can reduce your T3 thyroid hormone, and that is yet another, let's say, dampener on your metabolic rate, affecting everything. It affects everything. It affects your stress response, your mood, your digestion, your immune system, your libido, of course, your metabolism and then your energy levels. It's all connected, right, and then we've talked about this on other podcasts, so it wasn't really part of today's episode.

Philip Pape: 10:30

But just remember that muscle breakdown, also called catabolism, right, when you have more cortisol, it's going to increase the breakdown. It's like your body's way of trying to grab energy wherever it can. And since muscle tissue is metabolically active, of course, and you lose it, it's not good. It's not good when you lose muscle, which is going to just further reduce your calorie burn as well. So when you combine all these changes from low carb, just losing weight, losing fat is going to be progressively harder over time, simply because you were on lower carbs, and that's why a lot of people get initial success with these diets and then they hit these huge plateaus.

Philip Pape: 11:08

I used to think it was just because, oh, you're losing water weight fast, so you think you're in the right deficit. Then that slows down. You're no longer in the deficit. You feel like you're in a plateau. Really, you just need to lower the calories. No, it's actually a lot worse than that. It's a lot worse than that. There are actually compounding effects above and beyond that related to the cortisol-carbohydrate connection. So you know, those are the issues.

Philip Pape: 11:30

When you have carb restriction and a lot of people listening to the show or maybe this is the first episode you've ever heard you're like well, what else do I do? I've heard that cutting carbs. You know carbs make you fat. Right, that's a myth. We know that's a myth. At this point, energy balance is what caused you to get fat or lose weight. It has nothing to do with carbs, just has to do with calories. But we know people have been conditioned to think that carbs are bad in some way.

Philip Pape: 11:54

The answer is that there is no one size fits all answer that your individual and ideal carb intake is going to depend on a lot of factors. If you are sedentary, you don't need nearly as many carbs as if you're active. Of course, if you're listening to this show, strength training is non-negotiable, and strength training requires a lot of carbs to really make the most of it. Walking is something you should be doing as well, and so you should be active. Right, and you're trying to support your metabolic health. You're trying to maintain your stress levels. You're also trying to eat food you enjoy, so that it's sustainable Food that's satiating, like high-fiber foods. Well, what are high-fiber foods? Well, a lot of carbs. Vegetables, fruits, grains contain fiber. Right, also, just having a delicious, energy-promoting meal that's balanced between fats, carbs and protein. You're still going to have carbs, so there really is little to no benefit in cutting carbs for the vast majority of people when you're not dieting.

Philip Pape: 12:49

Now, when you are dieting meaning you're in a calorie deficit the calories are going to come down. You're going to keep the protein high, you're going to keep the fats moderate and you may end up with fairly low carbs. This is why you don't want to diet at too fast of a rate If your metabolism is fairly low to begin with and you have unrealistic expectations, and so you go in an aggressive rate of loss. Your carbs are going to come way down and you're going to start to see some of these independent low-carb or carb restriction-caused issues. And that's the message of today's podcast. That is why I wanted to make this, so that you understand that restricting your carbs has its own detriments, above and beyond detriments from other things, and it can exacerbate your metabolic decline.

Philip Pape: 13:32

So, if you're listening, even if you're a client, if you're in our physique university we've talked about this many times and you're in a fat loss phase, think about the rate of loss, like how many calories do you actually have to play with, because just being super low calories like 1,200, 1,100, 1,000, could be where the problem is and also think about how many carbs you have in there and when you're eating them. Are you eating them around your workout? Little fixes like adding 20 grams of carbs and taking it from protein, or even some from fat, could be exactly what you need to avoid some of these issues, and we also have studies showing, I'll say, the other side of the same coin, in other words, what happens when you increase your carbs. Well, again as part of a healthy whole food diet, right Dietary pattern. I don't mean processed carbs like pizza, donuts, muffins. Those aren't carbs right. Those are processed carbohydrates, fats and sugars. That's not carbs right. Carbs would be an apple or a whole grain piece of bread is a carb.

Philip Pape: 14:30

Studies show that increasing those carbs may reduce circulating cortisol and then dampen the associated psychological stress-related responsiveness. Psychological stress-related responsiveness Do you know what I just said? So your cortisol becomes more sensitive to your psychological stress when you have more of it circulating in your blood and that happens when you have less carbs. But if you increase your carbs you actually reduce the cortisol and that can have a big impact on your fat loss and how you feel. So for most active individuals, if you're training, if you're walking, moderate intake, which usually amounts to about I don't know 30 to 40% of your calories I don't think in terms of percent calories I like to anchor my protein, anchor my fats and then the rest is carbs, which usually provides a nice balanced approach, gives you plenty of glucose to support your thyroid function, to obviously support your training too. It keeps cortisol in check and then allows for fat loss when in calorie deficit because you're keeping it moderate.

Philip Pape: 15:29

Now, carb timing can make a difference. I mentioned this a couple of times. But if you place most of your carbs around your workouts, also in the evening before bed not like right before bed, but in the evening, like with dinner those are two times that are going to help you with your performance, with your recovery and even your sleep quality. You with your performance, with your recovery and even your sleep quality. Right, there is research that adding some you know nutritious carbs at night can help you with your sleep quality and manage cortisol levels. And I had a client who was like right on the verge of feeling kind of wiped out with their workouts and all we did is we just swapped a little protein for carbs. We're talking like 10, 15 grams. It was not much at all, but it was enough. It was enough.

Philip Pape: 16:06

And you don't know until you experiment with it. Track the data, compare the before and after, compare your biofeedback, like your energy, your workout performance, like how many reps did you get? How did you feel? Did you feel recovered? Did you get sore? Look at your sleep quality, your HRV, things like that, your just general feeling of like chronic stress, your food cravings yeah, we forgot to mention that, but food cravings and hunger signals are all impacted by this as well.

Philip Pape: 16:32

And then, of course, you know are you making progress? Are you able to make the progress you want? Right, and it doesn't mean, hey, you have to start cramming your mouth with tons of carbs and eat pasta and bread and eat like a bodybuilder diet with like 600 grams of carbs. Right, you still care about, okay, the quality of it and the quality of it being reasonable. Minimally processed foods are always a good start to add in, like fruits, potatoes, rice, oats. They provide energy, fiber, micronutrients, sometimes hydration. So all these just support your health in so many ways. Right, we're not trying to swing into eating all processed foods that some people call quote unquote carbs that are not, but really a nice, balanced, whole foods based, nutritious approach. I don't see how anybody can find that unreasonable, but you'd be amazed, or maybe you wouldn't. You see it on the Instagram all the time People demonizing fruits and carbs of any kind, talk about how carbs make you fat All the myths that still persist today.

Philip Pape: 17:23

Now, if you want to put this into practice, I'm going to give you some strategies. Okay, first, if you've been on a very low carb diet for a long time. We're talking about like 50 grams a day or less then I want you to honestly assess your biofeedback right your fatigue, your mood, your sleep, all of that and then gradually titrate up your carbs and see how it changes. Don't do anything else and keep your calories the same too. So that's the key here is like keep the calories the same, but increase your carbs. Take it away from fats first and then protein. I mean it's kind of weird. Like a lot of people with a low carb diet also don't even have great protein, they end up having a lot of fat, right. That's what I see. That's like the keto diet. So you may have a lot of room to bring the fat down. Replace it with carbs. And the key word here is gradual, because here's the other thing I get right.

Philip Pape: 18:10

People are like oh, I added in carbs and I had bloat and I had like digestive issues and I had this and that. Well, yeah, because you're massively changing not only your patterns and your habits from your body's perspective, but you're introducing like you're flooding it with things that it's just not used to. Same thing with your gut right and the gut bacteria, the gut health, all of that. So don't blame the carbs, blame the method to reintroduction. Your body needs time to readapt. So I would add like 25 grams of carbs tomorrow, right, for the next week, and just leave it there and then add another 25 grams a day the next day, like however many grams, to get you to your your goal, because this is also going to prevent, like blood sugar spikes that you're not used to, especially if you're not eating balanced meals. If you are, it's not as much of a concern. It gives you a metabolism some time to adjust. It lets you see what's really working. So that's the first strategy is just like this gradual reintroduction.

Philip Pape: 19:04

The second thing is pay attention to the timing. We mentioned it before, but I just want to be very specific, right? Having some carbs in the evening can help reduce cortisol, and eating carbs around your workout is going to match your activity level, your training days or your training, especially for those intense sessions. You're going to notice a difference. Most likely. I don't recommend anybody train fasted unless you know for a fact that you perform more optimally, which is very, very rare, right, and it's going to help with your stress as well. Um, on rest days, yeah, you, could you reduce carbs, lie and do some slightly and do carb cycling. Maybe. I generally recommend most people just keep it consistent day to day and then um see if it to change, to deviate from that, but just start there, all right.

Philip Pape: 19:47

The fourth strategy here is really, um, I'll call it periodic carb cycling. I'm not talking, this is so. This is different than daily carb cycling. This is, uh, over time, right, so like over as little as like a week, um, but it could be multiple weeks where you follow, like, a higher carb approach and then a lower carb approach and see if you notice a difference. And I only like that so that you can both play around with what refeeds feel like, like how, when you flood your system with carbs, what it does for you, but then also see the difference when you do restrict carbs and build that sensitivity. This is more of an experimental thing to see, like prove to yourself that there's a certain optimal level of carbs for you.

Philip Pape: 20:35

The fifth strategy here is to be aware of all the other things stressing you out, because if you're under lots of, like perceived or psychological stress, if you're not sleeping well, if you're over-training, over-exercising, this is going to sound weird. But rather than me tell you to eliminate all that, because I know it's difficult. It's a process, right, you might just need more carbs to offset it, to mitigate your stress load. Sounds strange, I know, but all of this stress is cumulative when it comes to your cortisol. So, at the very very least, not restricting carbs when you have all those stressors is a good start. But even Flooding your body with more may be the way to go.

Philip Pape: 21:12

And the reason I included this in here is a lot of my clients come to me like they're just stressed, they're under eating, they're not training right, and we want to get them doing all these things. But one of the first things I have them do is start tracking their food and try to eat more carbs that's usually what happens or more protein as well. You know cause I'll have, I'll have female clients. I can't eat that many carbs. I can't eat a hundred grams of carbs, or I can't eat 200, whatever it is. And I'm like it's okay, we're going to titrate up right? Here's some ideas, here's some lists let's start incorporating. And a lot of times they're like oh my gosh, like I feel so energized. I feel like I can do so much. I feel like I've got a new lease on life. You know I'm not. I'm not gaining weight, but I'm feeling better, I'm able to push more in the gym. It starts to Like offload some of the stress for them and and that's why we know that there's this hormonal connection with carbs, right?

Philip Pape: 22:04

The last thing is you want to track all the things you care about when comparing lower to higher carbs. So energy levels, sleep quality, workout performance, well-being, mental health, it doesn't matter, you pick it, pick what those are. I have a set of markers that I use with clients, but you may want to track whatever makes sense for you Hunger signals, et cetera. The goal is to find that sweet spot, right? You don't have to eat lots and lots of carbs, but generally a low or very low carb approach is not going to work for most people. Whether you're a man, a woman over 40, under 40, it doesn't matter. Don't tell me hey, I'm a woman over 40 and peri-postmenopause, so I've been told I need to eat low carbs. No, usually it's the opposite. Usually you're not eating enough carbs to support optimal hormone function, metabolism. You're impeding your fat loss progress. Eat those carbs, all right.

Philip Pape: 22:58

So the neat thing about all of this is the body is complex, so these relationships tend to be bi-directional. You know like the cortisol levels reflect how your metabolism is varying, right, independent of psychological stress. And we know that baseline concentrations of plasma cortisol actually vary with your metabolic rate based on your mass, like based on your body mass. So what this means is that cortisol is not just influencing your metabolism, it is a component of your metabolic process. It actually regulates the energy production and utilization in your body, very much like thyroid. Right, it's bidirectional and that means it suggests that optimizing metabolic health is not about your macros or calories. It's about creating the best lower stress hormonal environment to support efficient energy flux, energy production using the energy, using the nutrients.

Philip Pape: 23:50

And so when you maintain the right carb intake, you are you're not just doing all the superficial things, you know, fueling your workout, satisfying your cravings, blah, blah, blah You're supporting the hormonal cascade that keeps your metabolism humming. And then you know acute stress. Yeah, that can suppress appetite in the short term, but chronic stress can increase your consumption of highly palatable foods, especially carb-rich palatable foods. Interestingly, you know, carb-rich, fat-rich, sugar-rich, and that can increase your visceral adiposity, which is your belly fat, cause weight gain, all the things. And that also explains why extremely restrictive diets usually lead to rebound, overeating and then weight regain Another reason we don't want to restrict carbs.

Philip Pape: 24:34

So if you can find that sweet spot of your carbs, then you're kind of optimizing this whole ecosystem in your body that determines your body composition and your energy, your longevity, your health, all of it. So carbs are not good or bad. They have a role in your body's hormones. It's hormonal milieu symphony, whatever you want to call it, and it's a really different way of thinking about them. They're a tool, and learn to use the tool. For you.

Philip Pape: 25:01

The goal is not to swing from one extreme to another here. I don't want to demonize carbs and I don't want to consume them indiscriminately. I'm definitely not going to demonize them, if you know me right, but I also don't want to think well, just, you have to eat like all these carbs. There's a thoughtful, individualized approach. I know a few folks who've been lifting a long time and they know the value of carbs and they also can't take a lot of carbs. And and they know the value of carbs and they also can't take a lot of carbs, and they've tracked it and they've compared it and they've done all the things we've talked about and they've arrived at the fact that, yeah, you know what? I'm actually better on higher protein and moderate carbs. Somebody else is better on normal protein and super high carbs.

Philip Pape: 25:37

The fitness industry loves to sell simple, black and white solutions. Carbs are evil, fat makes you fat. All that, Just throw it away. Unfollow. Listen to this show. Reach out and understand that there is nuance to all of this your diet, your hormones, metabolism and that helps you make the informed choices that get you the results you want. All right.

Philip Pape: 25:56

So again, if you found value in today's episode, if you want to learn how to settle this up just very simply your macros, your calories, your timing, your carbs download my free flexible dieting guide. Use the link in the show notes or go to witsandweightscom. Slash free Again. It might be called Nutrition 101 on that page, but the flexible dieting guide is gonna help you implement the principles we discussed today Very step-by-step, simple, personalized to you, to support your metabolism, help you achieve your physique goals without all of this restriction or all of this stress. All right, until next time. Keep using your wits, lifting those weights and remember that strategic carb intake can help keep your stress in check and your metabolism firing on all cylinders. I'll talk to you next time here on the Wits and Weights Podcast.

Can You Lose Fat Without Tracking Macros? (Christina McClurken) | Ep 310

Book a FREE 15-minute Rapid Nutrition Assessment, designed to fine-tune your strategy, identify your #1 roadblock, and give you a personalized 3-step action plan in a fast-paced 15 minutes.

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Is macro tracking hiding the real reason you're stuck? What if ditching calorie counting helped you lose more fat, without the burnout?

I’m joined by Christina McClurken (aka Your Healthy Bestie), a former physical therapist turned functional nutritionist. She shares her system that helps burned-out dieters lose fat without logging every gram. You’ll learn why traditional tracking might be the wrong solution, how to reconnect with your body’s hunger signals, and what six metabolic pillars can completely change your approach to fat loss.

Christina McClurken is a functional nutritionist specializing in women's metabolic health. Creator of the Metabolic Revival Method, she focuses on helping women break free from diet culture using six foundational pillars. Her no-number tracking system helps clients reduce stress while still making sustainable progress toward fat loss.

Today, you’ll learn all about:

05:21 - Christina’s six pillars of metabolism
06:46 - How to track food without numbers
09:42 - Daily weighing as a learning tool
12:38 - Using plate structure for portion control
17:29 - When is someone ready for fat loss?
20:59 - How blood sugar affects hunger and cravings
24:37 - Movement, muscle, and blood sugar balance
27:58 - The role of indulgent foods in weight loss
29:03 - Dealing with metabolic adaptation
37:46 - The truth about stress and nervous system regulation
44:48 - Gut health as a vital part of fat loss
54:36 - The #1 habit for fat loss success
58:55 - Outro

Episode resources:

• Website: yourhealthybestie.com

• Instagram: @its_christina_mcclurken 

• Youtube: @your-healthy-bestie

How to Lose Fat Without Tracking Every Calorie or Macro

If you're burnt out from food logging and app-based nutrition tracking, you're not alone—and you might not need to be doing it at all.

In this episode of Wits & Weights, I sat down with Christina McClurken, a fellow evidence-based coach who challenges the belief that you must track every gram of food to lose fat. She works with women, especially those coming from a background of chronic dieting, to lose weight sustainably without calorie counting. So naturally, we dug into how this works, why it works, and who it's actually for.

Whether you’re ready to ditch your macro app or just want to understand your body better before your next fat loss phase, this conversation delivers a surprisingly effective alternative.

You Can Still Track—Just Not How You Think

Let’s clear this up right away: Christina’s approach still involves tracking—but without using numbers. That means no calorie goals, no macro targets, no green checkmarks or red warnings in an app. Instead, she uses a hand-written tracker built around qualitative feedback:

• How full and satisfied you felt after the meal

• What your energy and focus were like

• If there were digestive issues like bloating or gas

• Your emotional state when you ate (and why you were eating)

This style of tracking forces you to pay attention to how your body is responding to food—not just what the data says. Over time, it builds awareness and self-trust, which is something a lot of chronic dieters have lost.

The Six Pillars of a Healthy Metabolism

Tracking macros is a tool—not a lifestyle. Christina’s method is built around six metabolic health pillars, not just food:

1. Nutrition (with an emphasis on quality, protein, and fiber)

2. Movement (daily steps and strength training)

3. Sleep

4. Stress management

5. Gut health

6. Mindset

If even one of these is ignored, fat loss becomes unnecessarily difficult. Think of these like a structure: if a pillar is cracked or missing, the whole system becomes unstable. In fact, Christina often starts with improving sleep, hunger cues, and energy before allowing a client to enter a fat loss phase.

How You Can Know You’re in a Fat Loss Phase (Without Tracking Macros)

You don’t need to count macros to be in a deficit. You just need evidence that your body is in a deficit—such as:

• The scale trending down (using weekly averages or month-to-month comparisons)

• Circumference measurements dropping

• Hunger around 80% fullness—not stuffed, not starving

• Cravings are low and energy is stable

She uses a simple plating method to create meals that balance blood sugar and support muscle: 30g of protein, 2–3 cups of produce, and adjustable fats and carbs. To lose fat, she just slightly reduces those carbs and fats—maybe half a cup of rice becomes a third, or a full avocado becomes a quarter.

This small shift lowers total intake without requiring obsessive control.

What About When Fat Loss Stalls?

Metabolic adaptation is normal. Christina helps her clients push through this with:

• Maintenance breaks: Strategic periods where clients increase food intake slightly to maintain their weight and restore energy. Often used around holidays, vacations, or after long stretches of dieting.

• Reverse dieting (what she calls “stabilization”): Slowly increasing calories back up to a true maintenance level without triggering fat regain.

• Biofeedback-first approach: She won’t initiate fat loss unless someone’s sleep, stress, hunger, energy, and digestion are in check.

That last point is huge—many people try to lose fat when they’re not even physiologically or mentally ready.

What Gets Measured Still Gets Managed

Yes, she tracks. But it's less about “hitting your numbers” and more about:

• Understanding your triggers for eating (stress, fatigue, schedule)

• Noticing when you’re satisfied instead of full

• Seeing the downstream effects of sleep and stress on your hunger, energy, and cravings

This is about learning to eat like a normal human again. And that is the goal. You’re not meant to live your life glued to MyFitnessPal. Whether or not you ever go back to tracking macros, it’s the skills you build along the way that keep results sustainable.

So… Should You Stop Tracking?

That depends.

If you’ve never tracked macros, you’ll probably learn a lot by doing it for a while. But if you’ve been at it for years and are burned out, it may be time to rebuild your food awareness from the ground up.

If you’re struggling to follow the plan you know works—or to keep results once you’ve achieved them—it could be because you're treating nutrition as a math problem instead of a human behavior challenge.

As Christina said on the episode, this isn’t “anti-tracking”—it’s just tracking in a way that meets people where they are, with less stress and more success.

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Transcript

Philip Pape: 0:01

If you've been tracking your food and logging every gram of protein, carb and fat that crosses your lips, but still struggle to see results, or, worse, you're exhausted by the constant measuring and tracking, this episode is for you. My guest today has discovered that for many people, especially those caught in chronic dieting cycles, tracking macros might be masking deeper metabolic issues that no amount of precision measuring can solve. Christina McClurkin, known as your Healthy Bestie, joins me to discuss a surprisingly simple approach that's helped her clients lose stubborn fat without the mental burden of tracking macros. Whether you're burned out from tracking or simply curious about alternative approaches, this conversation will challenge you to rethink what's truly necessary for lasting fat loss results.

Philip Pape: 0:56

Welcome to Wits and Weights, the show that helps you build a strong, healthy physique using evidence, engineering and efficiency. I'm your host, Philip Pape, and today we're discussing an approach to fat loss that doesn't rely on tracking every calorie or macro, something many of us in the evidence-based fitness world, myself included, might find surprising. You might think why am I talking about this on the show when I'm such a data nerd? Yet increasingly, it is relevant if we are honest with ourselves about the real underlying principles, about personalizing the experience to the individual and what it truly takes for. Recently, it is relevant if we are honest with ourselves about the real underlying principles, about personalizing the experience to the individual and what it truly takes for fat loss. So my guest today is Christina McClurkin known as your healthy bestie, that's me.

Christina McClurken: 1:35

yeah, that's you all right, I love it.

Philip Pape: 1:38

And Christina began her career as a physical therapist, specializing in geriatrics, and that gave her definitely a unique perspective on the long-term consequences of neglecting health, which many of us have probably seen with individuals in our lives as they get older. And she wanted to break free from those patterns of diet culture that she developed growing up in the 80s hey, we're from the same generation, that we are. And then she immersed herself in the science of metabolism. She developed a balanced eating blueprint the balanced eating blueprint and that's her program focused on the six pillars of sustainable weight loss, without constant measuring or tracking. So today you're going to learn how understanding blood sugar can reduce cravings and promote energy. What's missing in your fat loss journey tips you can implement today if you're looking for that more intuitive approach to nutrition that still delivers results. Christina, welcome to the show.

Christina McClurken: 2:32

Hi, philip, thank you so much for having me. I'm excited to be here.

Philip Pape: 2:36

And so let me just start with this right the research. The research seems to show that tracking calories and macros improves your outcomes and maintaining your results. If so, why would anyone not want to track?

Christina McClurken: 2:48

Oh, my goodness, wow, do we have a whole hour for this? Yeah, I think there's. First of all, there's research to support just about anything and everything. Right, whether you or I agree with it or not, I think that that is something that we can agree on, right, that there's lots of research.

Christina McClurken: 3:04

I am a big scientific nerd myself and I am all about N of one, meaning you need to be an experiment of your own one person, because whatever the research says, it may work for you and it may not.

Christina McClurken: 3:17

So I gosh I can't remember whose quote it was I heard, but it was said just let research refine your approach, but not define your approach, because we can kind of lose ourselves in the weeds if we're constantly following the research, because you could be jumping ship every two days on a new weight loss approach.

Christina McClurken: 3:32

So, you know, I find, as like you said, a female especially who grew up in the eighties and I always like to say diet culture is basically part of our DNA, right, when we grow up, then it's just kind of built into the hard wiring.

Christina McClurken: 3:45

There is a part of our DNA, right, when we grow up, then it's just kind of built into the hardwiring. There is a lot of negative connotation and stress and emotional weight no pun intended that comes along with constantly looking at your food as in a calorie or a macro or a point or a container or whatever way you want to look at it. So while it may be helpful for some to know numbers and to do that, it may not be helpful for some, and that is part of what I found for myself for a period of time in my life and for a lot of women that I coach. And I say a period of time in my life because, now that I've healed my relationship with food, I'm okay counting numbers if I need to for periods of time. But I think we have to honor each individual and where they're coming from in their journey. And, as you and I both know, stress is a big impediment to weight loss. So if stress comes from numbers, we have to find a way to work around that too.

Philip Pape: 4:37

Yeah, beautifully said and, honestly, I agree with everything you're saying and we're not going to be arguing today, trust me. Yeah, some we're not going to be arguing today, trust me, yeah, it's. Some of this is around the language and also where people are starting from and what we mean by these different things. So you said N equals one, and when we say evidence-based, I think a lot of people go to scientific studies and from you and I are experienced. Evidence is you, the person, as well as the anecdotes, as well as the coaching experience. So, when we talk about tracking, there's different types of tracking, right, and I definitely want to single out calorie macro tracking, but then I also want to understand okay, so how do you help people build awareness or get over the issue that they're struggling with with some form of measurement, tracking, awareness, whatever you want to call it, because that's ultimately, I think, the principle that we're probably going for.

Christina McClurken: 5:23

Yeah, yeah, I absolutely have my clients track and I think that's ultimately, I think, the principle that we're probably going for. Yeah, yeah, I absolutely have my clients track and I think that's a big misconception. It's not that we're not tracking, but we just are not tracking numbers in that stretch of the imagination for the most part. So the way I believe my program, which formerly was called the Balanced Eating Blueprint, is now called the Metabolic Revival Method, and I did change it because it really is. You know, I think when you make put the word eating in a program, it's great.

Christina McClurken: 5:46

But nutrition is one of my six pillars, which you know. As we know, the metabolism is a holistic thing, and so I coach on what I call my six pillars of a healthy metabolism, and that is nutrition, yes, but movement, sleep, stress, gut health and mindset. Because they are pillars, they do not. I don don't call them silos because they do not exist separately, like they are pillars. And if we are, you know ourselves are a building being held up by all six. They all need to be strong, right and never in order to have a real high functioning metabolism.

Christina McClurken: 6:13

But when it comes to the nutrition pillar and we talk about food I do have my clients track, but we're like old school, literally hand tracking, and I say that because you absolutely have to bring awareness to what you're eating, right, what gets measured, gets managed and if what, I would say what we think we're doing, what we're actually doing are two different things until you go write it down. So I do have my clients track and that is our data really for a lot of things, including not just are we able to lose weight, but are we properly balancing our macronutrients, how is our energy? Are we responding well to our food? So you know, when I have my clients track, we're not just looking at the calories and the macro breakdown, we're looking at Did it keep you full and satisfied? Right Cause, that's not just about the macro composition. Did you enjoy the meal? Were you gassy, bloated, brain foggy?

Philip Pape: 7:11

after, or did you feel fueled and energized and have mental clarity, so really actually getting in touch with not only the food you're eating but how your body is uniquely responding to those things? This is great.

Christina McClurken: 7:15

So you have them track with side-by-side with each meal, those factors, right, if I've created my own tracker unique that I use inside my program, and it's not only those factors, but also I let meal timing right.

Christina McClurken: 7:25

So I want to know when you ate. I want to know why you ate, whether that was actual hunger or sometimes obviously we eat out of, not out of hunger, right, this world would not have a problem if we only ate when we were hungry. But you know what, sometimes we eat for schedule, right. Sometimes it's we had breakfast at eight and we're not really hungry at 11, but we've got a meeting midday and we won't have a chance to eat till three. So sometimes we actually should eat for a scheduling purpose, right. So we're looking at all of that sort of stuff. So I track what they're having when they're having a time of day for meal timing, the mood they're in when they're having it right, because we shouldn't eat in a stressed state and then, yes, how they feel after, whether they feel full, satisfied, energized, mental clarity or bloated, gassy, brain, foggy, tired, need a nap, that kind of stuff.

Philip Pape: 8:08

And how would you compare that to? So, when people think of tracking and you mentioned how it's stressful, it's overwhelming or it's obsessive or whatever the word is where most people think of an app a food tracking app, a food logging app right, and I agree that many of those apps are just terribly designed as well, and they're also they're good at shaming you when you don't hit targets and things like that. How much of that is part of the problem versus if you know. If your hand tracking was an app, would that be like the best a good food tracking app, yeah, yeah.

Christina McClurken: 8:38

I think one of the challenges that I find with apps like MyFitnessPal, I use chronometer with my clients who are tracking so we can see nutrient density and everything. But I think part of the problem is is that as soon as we throw an number, even if you tell someone not to look at the numbers, and soon as we throw numbers in there, a lot of people have these again, especially if you've come from I work with a lot of women right of my age group so who come from diet culture. They see a number of grams of carbs that must be too much, right, there's automatically this I feel like dieting has rid women in particular of their self-trust and they can't feel like they can't trust their body to know. None of my clients, when they come in, are barely ever in touch with their hunger cues. Right, it's externally driven like well, this is an appropriate number or portion or size. But if you took two people and ask them that like right, it's completely different depending on what preconceived notions they come in with.

Christina McClurken: 9:33

So I just find that sometimes, sometimes the visible numbers are helpful for people and I'm all about using when they are oftentimes in the initial stages, when women have been tracking by calories or macros or something for a long time. They're so swayed by those that it's hard to get in touch with their own hunger cues, satiety cues, relationship with food issues. So I find that removing those numbers for a period of time can be helpful to actually get them back into touch. Like why am I eating? Am I actually hungry for this? Am I trying to hit a number Right? Those sorts of things.

Philip Pape: 10:07

That makes a lot of sense, because these things can be a distraction, right? They're like this short-term metric that, honestly, is meaningless in the moment until it's taken in context and connected to something else. And I wonder so, how do you feel about the scale? Because that's another controversial area where one of my struggles with clients is. You know, we want to have data over time, but I also don't want them to even care what's happening day to day because it fluctuates so much. What are your thoughts on that?

Christina McClurken: 10:30

Yeah, so I do and again, very individual with my clients. In general, I do recommend use of the scale on a daily basis and part of the reason is to actually decrease that emotional attachment to it. So, you know, I show them graphs over time and really explain that it we do have to zoom out right. This is this is not day to day that we're looking for. We're looking for week to week averages and even as a female if I have females that are still cycling, we're look. We're not, you know, a male you could compare average week one to two to three to four to five women I'm looking at, you know, period week of month one to period, week of month two. Pms week of month one to two. What are those sways?

Christina McClurken: 11:08

I use it again as data for them to get to know their bodies and this is also how I can teach them that there are different things that affect the scale than just what you ate, because women, when they start doing this, will learn that they could eat the same thing five days in a row and their scale is up and down and they're like what the heck?

Christina McClurken: 11:29

I must need to eat less. I'm like, no, you know, this is natural fluctuations, it can fuck me. This is why we track on our trackers also how much they slept the night before, right, what their water intake is. So it's a learning tool for me to be able to use it with them to explain that okay, you see, the scale went up. I, I must have to eat less. I see you slept three hours the night before, right, you're stressed because you have a deadline at work and your kids are this. So they start to see the correlation between these other factors and the scale and that when they start managing stress, that comes down. So it really does actually help that detach that emotion from it.

Philip Pape: 12:01

Yeah, and I'm going to put you in the same league as Holly Baxter, who I recently interviewed, and she brought up something similar with fiber. Right, how you know the intake of fiber and carbs and things can just massively change your fluid retention and thus your scale weight, but connecting to it is the key that you keep coming back to. This is like the theme. So then, if you're starting to make those connections for your hunger signals and what you eat, when you eat, when you need it, et cetera, where does a target or a goal come in?

Christina McClurken: 12:27

Yeah, well, do you mean in terms of like actual?

Philip Pape: 12:31

nutrition, what you eat, how much you eat, things like that. Like, if you have a fat loss goal, you got it.

Christina McClurken: 12:36

Yeah. So I use a plating system with my clients a visible kind of visual plate, and built into that is ensuring they're getting enough fiber and protein. So each plate should have two to three cups of veggies. Breakfast is a bonus Not everybody does that but at least lunch and dinner 30 plus grams of protein, and then the fats and the carbs are what we toggle. That's what's variable. So I always say protein and produce constant. Other ones are variables and that is where we toggle.

Christina McClurken: 13:03

So this is where a lot of women come in, and you I'm sure you see this a lot. I'm eating healthy but I'm not losing weight. Well, you can be eating healthy and maintenance. I eat. Once you get to your goal weight, I'm sure you're going to be eating healthy and maintaining Right. So when we start tracking they they under.

Christina McClurken: 13:16

I teach them about the plate, the guidelines why I'm a big fan of. If you understand why, like that, fiber helps stretch your stomach, turns off your hunger hormones, keeps you full protein. Same thing turns down your hunger hormones. So they understand why they're creating that plate the way they are and that they have the freedom and flexibility and that not every day needs to look exactly the same. I think it would be strange if we were all the exact same amount of hungry every single day, right? So it gives them that little bit of freedom.

Christina McClurken: 13:41

And then, when I look at their data again, we're going to look at like a seven day period of tracking and once we have your plates balanced and you're eating fiber, protein, fats, carbs and scale staying the same, then I say okay, what we're going to do is we're going to skim down those fats and carbs just a little bit off every meal and, for example, that can look like taking a half a cup of rice down to a third a cup, like a half an avocado down to a quarter of an avocado, and then they can still keep the same flavor profile of their meals.

Christina McClurken: 14:10

Right, it tastes the same because we're going to do little bits off all meals. They don't even really notice a difference. And it's a very easy way to put someone into a calorie deficit without them feeling like they have to remove their favorite foods or, you know, leave things out, or I feel like they have to measure it down to the gram. And it gives them that freedom and flexibility to also just, you know, maybe there's a meal they say I don't really want the carbs here, because I'm going out to dinner, I know I'm going to have actually, you know, quite a bit more. So that's flexible like that.

Philip Pape: 14:36

I hear you. My wife's birthday is next week and I'm in a fat loss phase. So I'm thinking about I already ordered her a cake and we're going out to a nice restaurant. So you know, you got to make that work. So what's cool is that you're getting to the same behaviors through different methods, as the way I'll put it in that, like if somebody was tracking macros, what would change in a fat loss?

Philip Pape: 14:57

Well, the fats and carbs would come down, and if you're not downing with protein and fiber, you're going to get super hungry and you're not going to hold on to muscle. So you're kind of approaching it just from a different angle, which I love. What about the situation where someone the aggressiveness of the fat loss is a factor and kind of the amount somebody is hoping to lose, let's say, um, that's going to affect all of this. So there's a patient's component to this, I imagine. Like I've got 30 pounds to lose, but like you know how hungry do you want them to kind of accept, or are they doing this in a way that they're not accepting too much hunger? Or you know what's your metric for that?

Christina McClurken: 15:32

My metric for that is I tell people when we're in a weight loss phase, like your goal is to lose and again, fat loss phase, because obviously the method I use is based on fat loss, but I think my clientele tends to use the words weight loss more right is based on fat loss, but I think my clientele tends to use the words weight loss more right. But basically I tell them, if we could eat to about 80% fullness, meaning at the end of every meal, you could eat more, but you don't have to right? I think we all know that feeling where it's like, yeah, I'm not stuffed, I could eat, but I don't really have to. And so that's usually the kind of guideline I give people to go by when we're in a maintenance phase. Then we can eat till we're like we're full, right, like that meal, like I don't think I could have anymore. And again, you're not going to do that every meal of the day or you'd probably end up being in a surplus. But that's kind of how I tie into like what is it that feeling? So I don't have to rely on an external number to know I'm in a deficit.

Christina McClurken: 16:20

And then the other thing is is I tell people. That's why we're looking at your weekly average weight. Guess what? If you're learning that feeling of eating to about 80% full and the scale is going down, guess what? You're in a deficit. And you didn't need to look at a number to know you're in a deficit, like we're figuring that out. Or if it's not the scale that's going down, it's your inches, right? Like that's the other thing.

Christina McClurken: 16:47

Program. This is not going to be like you went on up to be a and you dropped 20 pounds in a month, because that would be you know the incorrect way, which is why you gain it back, right. So I always say when you lose three to five pounds in my program, it's going to feel like you, like 15 in a different, because they're losing so many inches, right. So that's kind of a say like when we look at the data, if either the scale's going down or your inches are going down, we know we're in a deficit or a correct fat loss, without having to actually be like you know weighing your chicken breast.

Philip Pape: 17:14

Yeah, and it makes a lot of sense for folks who track or don't track when they've at least mastered these skills you kind of get in tune with. This is the level of hunger or fullness I have, and I know from having just having tuna on some. I actually use some low carb bread. That's one of my processed foods when I'm in fat loss. Uh, I ate that and I'm like I have an apple over here, but I'm gonna save that for my snack later Cause I'm good. You know you just kind of like good, you get used. People are hearing this and I know you want to get them ready, like you need to be ready, including the emotional side and the cravings, and some people are going to take longer than others. What are your criteria to be ready?

Christina McClurken: 17:54

Yeah. So we start, um, you know my program with what I call a priming phase and that is where for me it's all biofeedback based. So if people aren't familiar with that term, you know biofeedback is your hunger. I always say, because I work with women, like, ask yourself how is she feeling? And then it's like she S, s, h? E. So sleep, stress, hunger, energy, and you know hunger goes with cravings, energy also goes along with mood and recovery from your workout. So those are my criteria. I will.

Christina McClurken: 18:25

I will not put somebody into a attempt at fat loss or weight loss until we're sleeping well, right, stress is well managed, hunger is controlled, craving no, no outlandish cravings. Energy is good and if they are active and you know the recovering from their workouts. So really the criteria is that we learn how to balance our plates so they're eating by the meal structure, right, we're hitting protein goals, which again, at least 30 grams at the meals, but that I help everyone individually figure out what is their goal, based on whether they're looking to maintain right, their their weight loss goal, and then if, obviously it's very hard for people to get that in three meals, so then we add in strategic protein snacks, et cetera. So I have to make sure people are hitting their you know, getting enough fiber, getting their protein. They have their balance plates down. We're at a place where they're not feeling restricted, deprived, binging behavior, any of that. They're sleeping well, their energy is good.

Christina McClurken: 19:09

So if all biofeedback is good and they've learned their plate structure, then we can start that's kind of like the foundational and then we can start that kind of skimming process of skimming things down. But I, you know, I always tell women that you have to look at the whole body and the person in which you are trying to approach fat loss. Because if you're mentally ready but your life is a big stress bucket at the moment, right, dieting is a stressor, fat loss is a stressor. So I always tell people that it still might not be the right time. There's plenty of progress to be made in maintenance. So we have to look at not only you know, are your plates in order, but like what's going on in your life at the moment too, to make sure it's the right time.

Philip Pape: 19:48

Yeah, and are you? I assume there's some level of, I'll say, tolerance or flex, depending on it's like a relative improvement for the person right, or you don't want everybody to be a 10 out of 10 on everything?

Christina McClurken: 19:58

No, oh gosh, no, and yeah it. You know, and this is like you know, as a coach, and that's why there's nuance. And then the human coach you're coaching, right? That's why I say N of one, right. So there's some people that are, you know, take a little bit longer right To really kind of understand. There's other people that are just given the surface of balance in their meals and they're ready, you know. So it all kind of depends and, like I said, it depends on the dining history and how long they have. If someone came into my program and has been under eating for, you know, a decade, five years, even one year, or have come off a program like Optivia or something like that, we're going to balance their plates and build them up to like a good maintenance and learn that and stay there for a little bit, right, before we pull the trigger to skim, just like you would with anybody else, because we have to keep in mind, you know, how adapted or maladapted their metabolism is when they come into the program too.

Christina McClurken: 20:47

So that history plays into it, yep.

Philip Pape: 20:49

And again, I'm always asking for a friend on the show because my whole, our whole audience is friends. There might be people new to the show. People have no clue who I am or you are. I'm playing the idiot here as if I don't know any of this stuff, but half of it I might not, because you have your own unique approach. So blood sugar I want to. I want to touch on that because I do love this topic. I think it can get misconstrued and it could get definitely overhyped like fear mongered, but there's I talk about all the time as like a massive game changer, if you do it right. So so talk about what that means blood sugar balancing or using blood sugar as a metric to improve your food.

Christina McClurken: 21:24

Yeah, and I get a lot of with the social media world right now and everyone wearing their CGMs or continuous glucose monitors and stuff. I get a lot of questions do I need one? I'm like no, no, no, because we can tell.

Philip Pape: 21:35

If you wear one of those, it's going to tell you not to eat potatoes, right? Well, so in here, yeah.

Christina McClurken: 21:39

And then you won't. But again, I think the normal person doesn't quite know how to, you know, interpret the data. So you know, I always tell people when let's tie it into symptoms, right, someone comes to you. They're like I'm constantly hungry, I've got a lot of cravings, or I have a 2 PM energy crash, or I'm in the kitchen late at night, right. So when I, when, when we talk about balanced blood sugar versus erratic and imbalanced blood sugar, the erratic and imbalanced blood sugar is creating mood swings, energy dips, like highs and lows, cravings, hunger, so it's, that is your body's interpretation of the highs and lows of a blood sugar. I always tell people think about, like the six flags, like the biggest rollercoaster in the place, right, the highs and the lows, the ups and the downs. That's what we want to avoid. We want to be on the little kiddie roller coaster that has, like you know, it looks like a lazy river kind of thing. Because, when you know, blood sugar rises and dips are natural and when you eat food, right, it's going to change.

Christina McClurken: 22:32

But we want to avoid those high swings and lows because those are typically what's creating the primary complaints of people who are coming in struggling with nutrition and weight loss right. They have hunger they try to. They have cravings, their energy dips, they need the caffeine and the sugar at mid-afternoon. So built into the structure of my plate is keeping your blood sugar balanced right. So when we have our carbohydrates in the presence of protein and fiber right, it mitigates the effect on our blood sugar and that's what helps keep us on that kiddie roller coaster. So I really kind of I'm a big fan of you know give a man a fish he eats once. Teach a man a fish he eats for life, like I really teach women about how their body is working and how the foods they eat and in the way they which they eat them is impacting their blood sugar. I call it really food organization, not elimination.

Philip Pape: 23:19

Yeah, I love that because even how you sequence your foods in a meal can have an effect on those right, and people don't understand that. And it doesn't have to be complicated. It sounds like even just balancing your macros throughout the day could help a lot of folks who are normally jumping protein over here and then carbs over here. Where does walking, movement and even strength training fit into the blood sugar equation?

Christina McClurken: 23:40

Yeah. So movement is the second pillar of my program and that encompasses both exercise and non-exercise movement. And so you know, when it comes from the way our metabolism is broken down, our total daily energy expenditure, you know, 15% of the calories you burn comes from non-exercise movement, 5% from exercise. So the first thing I teach women is that we don't have to be stressed about not working out seven days a week, right, Because the non-exercise movement is more important when it comes to blood sugar. They both have a huge impact, right.

Christina McClurken: 24:08

So the more non-exercise movement we do, particularly timing your walks after meals and such, obviously helps balance your blood sugar, because your muscles are your biggest uptakes of glucose. So you eat a meal, you've got glucose in your blood, If you can put that to use, so go for a walk. Or if you can't go for a walk, do 50 chair squats, go up and down the stairs in your house or walk down the hall at work or whatever. You're going to be utilizing that blood, that sugar from your meal. So it's not going to be free floating in your blood and keeping your blood sugar spiked. When it comes to exercise and, of course, weightlifting is what I recommend that women are doing and everyone really is doing again, your muscles are your biggest stores of your glucose, so you will absolutely have a better blood sugar response and insulin response when you can build more lean muscle tissue and when we're exercising we actually don't need insulin to take that sugar into our blood as well, so it helps with insulin resistance and really our overall insulin sensitivity.

Philip Pape: 25:02

Yeah, I like that. I like to reframe insulin as a huge friend of ours when we lift weights. You know it's a massive friend for shuttling nutrients and stuff. Cool. So when you one other thing you mentioned was um, you know, or maybe you didn't mention this let's talk about processed foods and indulgences. Right, that's a big one, because we're big into flexibility and if people are coming to you struggling with emotional eating and you know they binge on that chocolate or they eat the baked goods or the donuts and the message is like, well, you can probably still eat those, but you know, how do we make this all work?

Christina McClurken: 25:34

Yeah, yeah. Well. So the first thing I always say is my approach is definitely a health first weight loss and health first fat loss. So I always tell women, like food quality matters, right, and not only matters for, as we know, you know, staying full and all that stuff. But it really does matter in terms of we are doing everything we're doing to promote health. I will never assist someone in weight loss. That's going to be detrimental to their health, but food quality does matter because I think this world is over obsessed with macronutrients and nobody's talking about micronutrients and it is the vitamins, the minerals, like all of those things that we need that come from our foods that are giving us that glowing skin and shiny hair and good energy and really essential for every microscopic process and cellular turnover that's going on in your body. So we can't ignore food quality.

Christina McClurken: 26:20

The way I teach women, because it is not. I think that you know when people say 80, 20, right, like that works for some people, some people like 90, 10, some 70, 30, like it's a hard thing to follow. I call and this is exactly how I teach my kids, which is a great thing, because I feel like you know, working with women that have kids. I say we have our empowered choices for food, which those are the whole foods. And then we have our sometimes foods, and that's how I call them sometimes foods, because you know, fruits, veggies, whole grains, protein, lean protein you can eat those at any meal, anytime. But the things like the cake, the cookies, the donuts, the ice cream, those are for sometimes, they're just not all the time food, and so it's a really great way for people to grasp concept. Like, yeah, I can have those sometimes and we're.

Christina McClurken: 27:03

When we're working on weight loss, I always say it's about aligning your actions with your goals, and so sometimes, if a woman has a week where, let's just say, all her meals, yes, are balanced and she's sleeping well and her stress is managed, she's doing her movement, but the scale is not moving. You know, one of the first things we do is we look back and say, well, like, how many days did you include some sometimes foods? Right, because maybe that snack is a little less favorable. Or, you know, end of the day with some wine or some ice cream, and it might be four days. I'm like, okay, well, that might be enough to put you in maintenance right now. So what if next week. We just take that down to like one or two and that's a simple way to track where they don't feel restricted and they just know okay, this is also teaching people to be intentional.

Christina McClurken: 27:38

Think ahead, look at your week. What do you have going on? Yeah, maybe there's a dinner out on Friday and you know that's the day you want your sometimes food. So Monday through Thursday you're just going to keep it pretty clean, right, and then they can see that if the scale goes down the next week, that's how they're learning their threshold of in weight loss mode. How frequently can I, you know, have some of those less than empowered choices? Okay, and then when I'm in maintenance, maybe that can be three days a week and I'm good. So it's a really nice way to help people kind of learn that like, yeah, you have that wiggle room for the fun and that sort of stuff, but we're still looking at again when we're tracking, how it's making you feel like. Did you wake up with a headache the next day? Did you feel like crap? Because then it doesn't become. I've told you you can't have anything, because I will never. I can't, it becomes. I'm choosing not to have that because I now I don't want to feel that way anymore, you know.

Philip Pape: 28:23

You're a beast at the psychology, because this is what it's all about, right, christina, like it really is, and you kind of train yourself. It sounds like if you put in place a lot of what you've talked about already, like fiber, blood sugar balance, enough protein, a lot of those tend to teach people to like those foods more anyway, and you get to. You know, I don't feel great when I go to the restaurant, or I don't feel great when I have too much of this food over here. Uh, sometimes food, so if it's more than sometimes, maybe that's that's the thing.

Christina McClurken: 28:49

Look at the frequency of it Right, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Philip Pape: 28:53

All right. So you've got somebody into fat loss. They've dialed in some of these things. They're not perfect, you know 80%, like, like many of us, um, and metabolic adaptation is going to happen. Right, you're going. This is just inevitable for everybody listening, metabolism is going to decline during fallacy, even if you're doing it at a reasonable glide path. And normally somebody going through that with this history of, say, yo-yo dieting, it'd be this massive uncertainty and black hole of what's going on. And now I feel like I can't lose weight, right. So when you're working with women, they've gotten to this good state they're in fat loss. How do you deal with that?

Christina McClurken: 29:28

Uh, yeah, and again, just kind of on a case by case basis, and, as you know, it all comes with like what their dieting history was, how long they've done it, et cetera. So, uh, it let's just say two different avatars. So, for example, one woman who maybe has 80 pounds to lose, right, and she's been in a fat loss phase, weight loss phase, and she's lost about 45 of it. But you know, we're six months down the road. Uh, we take a break and that's probably one of the hardest things to convince people of, cause I think a lot of people, women, everyone thinks that it's like, from this way to go, wait is, as certainly you know, point A to point B. We're not stopping or taking a detour, but, as you know and this is where I come from educating about how their body works is that that adaptation is happening and that we do need a break for the body and also the mind. And that's the other thing is there's a level of burnout when someone has this more significant amount of weight to lose. Right To be focusing on weight loss for so long. So I tend to do that season, like on a season by season basis, right?

Christina McClurken: 30:25

So I had a lot of women who I actually had them take a maintenance break over the holidays because guess what? Maintenance is a skill. So to learn. I think so many of us come from. We're either in a in a mode of losing weight or we're gaining weight and that we don't know how to just kind of pause and maintain. So I have people, if they have a long time, a lot of weight to lose and we need to take that little break to prevent any sort of too much adaptation, that we take a maintenance break. And just how I taught you is how we analyze, you know, when we're in weight loss versus maintenance, what do they get to do? In maintenance? That can look like different for everybody. If someone likes to include more, sometimes foods, maybe that's what it looks like. If someone just wants to eat a little bit more at every meal, like even like then more nutritious fats and carbs, add those like increase a little bit right, maximize your energy, lift a little bit more right, think all this. There's so many things that can happen and it's a skill to learn how to maintain and not gain right? So we take breaks and then we resume. So I did a lot of that with people over the holidays and we resumed in January and then continued into weight loss mode and now they feel like they built that little bit of trust in themselves Like, wow, I can most people are. I used to gain five pounds over the holiday. Now I actually know how to maintain and then I can go back and lose some more and I'm refreshed for it. So I definitely incorporate breaks If someone has maybe just comes in and they only have, you know, under 20 pounds to lose.

Christina McClurken: 31:41

Oftentimes we don't need to institute that in terms of the adaptation, but sometimes we do for the psychology, like you said, the psychology piece, the mindset piece. Sometimes it can be like I've got a calendar where a month of travel for work and social events and everything and and honestly, like let's just maintain because that's what a month is a really short period of time and you can get right back out after. And sometimes that stress of trying to be focused on weight loss when food is out of your control a little bit more often we're traveling, then we don't need that added stress. So let's focus on movement, let's focus on stress management, let's focus on sleep, mindset, work and then slide back into a weight loss, fat loss mode after. So it can be seasonally, it can be situationally and again, I think it's just all embedded in that is helping women understand that they can start to trust their bodies again, that they're not going to, just like you know, turn on them.

Philip Pape: 32:29

Yeah, that confidence in physique development and or not, it's not just your physique, but you know what I mean your body, being able to control it, and control, not gaining and not just losing is really powerful because, like you said, then you could go after it with a newfound energy. I wonder how? So what about the extreme case where someone has a very over-responsive metabolism right, it drops a lot, like you know you've seen these avatars. It runs the gamut where they would just have to really eat a lot fewer calories to continue with that pace. Do you reassess and say, um, where they would just have to really eat a lot fewer calories to continue with that pace. Do you reassess and say, hey, we're going to slow down the end goal of where you're going to get to, or what Cause, even if you take a break, it's going to resume at that level?

Christina McClurken: 33:09

Yeah, I go really biofeedback based, Like I said the body will not lie to you.

Christina McClurken: 33:13

So I feel like if people, if I do start to notice, like people are telling me I have more cravings this week, or I found myself, like you know, just thinking about that ice cream in my freezer every night, those sorts of things, or gosh my workouts, I just can't, I'm sore all the time, you know. So it really kind of depends on I go by biofeedback, because that really is the language of your metabolism. I always tell you if you can learn how to speak metabolism, which is those sorts of things like, then you can kind of know. So if someone's biofeedback is all good and they're still losing weight, and even if it seems like, well, we probably should take a break. But biofeedback is fine, I don't mess with anything. Right, I don't, I don't mess with anything. It's only when I start to see biofeedback start to suffer, that then we will maybe put the pause on things until everything. Then we build that back up, get biofeedback where we want it and then resume.

Philip Pape: 34:00

Okay, cool. And when somebody takes a break? So here's where, like, our approaches are slightly different in what we track sometimes. But like one thing I like, I definitely like to calculate someone's TDEE based on their food and weight and you'll see situations where when you do take a break, they're not eating enough to fully recover. They're kind of like hovering right under there and partly it's because the skill you've given them kind of allows them to stay in that state without it feeling too bad, but it also kind of slows down that recovery. So how do you help address that? Again, is it biofeedback?

Christina McClurken: 34:30

still, yeah, no, I definitely do kind of exactly the opposite of what we do to lose like skim, fats and carbs, and you don't really notice the difference. I strategically instruct them how to add that in without really noticing like they're going to get over full right. So, oh. So I know you're feeling pretty comfortable with that. You know like half a cup of oats at breakfast and you know I don't know like one tablespoon of dressing at lunch on your salad. Why don't we actually bump that up a little bit? You know a little bit more oats, three quarters a cup, maybe put two tablespoons on. So you're not really noticing it. It's not making you feel that you're not feeling overstuffed, we're not getting digestive distress, but I know in my head that like that's a simple way to add 150, 200 calories a day without peanut butter.

Christina McClurken: 35:11

Yeah, that's what I said. I said give me a drop of peanut butter, I can crush that in like 30 seconds so I get 500 extra calories. But yeah, so that's really how I do it. It's kind of teaching them that same skill without having to look at the number. Like let's just incrementally add a little bit, nourish your body, because when we eat not enough, there's always some system of our body that's having to pull from and we don't want that right. So kind of explaining to them that, like that's again how your body's working. So we need to actually boost that back up. And that's the same method I take with them at the end, when we're kind of you know what everyone else would technically call a reverse diet. I call it like we're just going to fuel you back up. So, yeah, you feel good because your hunger hormones are controlled, but now we're going to slowly and incrementally add back in so that you don't gain.

Philip Pape: 35:50

You don't really notice it, but now we're giving your body more of what it needs Posing that loop again where you said maintenance is a skill and they'll know that, when all is said and done, they'll be able to sustain these results forever. What about? Do you use refeeds or kind of calorie cycling? Again, I know you're not tracking calories, but you said seasonally. So I assume even week to week or intro week, you might have people change their patterns.

Christina McClurken: 36:13

Yeah, yeah. And that again is, you know, I don't tend to. I don't tend to attract people who are I don't want to say attract Most of my clientele is not maybe like lifting so significantly heavy or intensely that they need these refeeds. I'm often working with more of the perimenopausal woman who needs to learn how to scale back on the intensity of the exercise and that sort of stuff. So typically with my clientele we're not really there where we need like refeed. I again am all about the more so, yeah, the mental and the physical break. So if it happens to be, you know, a weekend where there's a couple nights out or a couple nights where you just have more or whatever, like great that your body needed, that you use that, put it to use for a great workout the day after. But it's not so like strategically planned in, it's more self-guided or, like I said, I kind of use that intuition with them.

Philip Pape: 37:06

Which is consistent with it computes, and also the word refeed. All these terms we use are so uh, I don't want to say they're pretentious sometimes, but sometimes they are, like you said, reverse dieting. Um, it's funny.

Christina McClurken: 37:21

Well, I think the only reason I put that in air quotes because I always approach my program where it's not a diet, right, it's a lifestyle. But that's how I explain that is a phase of my metabolic mastery program, which is what I call stabilization, meaning we're now going to stabilize you at this new weight eating more, and it essentially is the reverse diet, which is what most people would term. You know, term it yes.

Philip Pape: 37:38

Yeah, let's talk about sleep and stress. I know you mentioned them earlier. You can lump them together, but also not there's very distinct things about them.

Philip Pape: 37:46

So there's a lot of conventional wisdom or like the same old kind of advice about both. Like for sleep, it's okay, you need a certain amount of hours of sleep, you need to do all these hacks not hacks, but you know change your environment. Ritual, sleep ritual, blah, blah, blah. And then for stress, the talk is always about sleep or stress. Um, coping mechanisms. Uh, is that the way that you frame this, or is there?

Christina McClurken: 38:10

a more targeted, practical approach for people. Yeah, when I talk about stress, I use the term stress Cause that's what you know translates to people. I really mean nervous system regulation. So you know, we, as we know, and I explained to my clients we have two arms of our nervous system sympathetic, parasympathetic, right, sympathetic is that fight or flight which most women are in from the minute they get up to the minute they go to bed. It is go mode until you hit the pillow. And then parasympathetic, that rest and digest which none of us are really accessing during the day. So you know, the way I explain it again is that that is the shift that happens with the female metabolism as we enter perimenopause is we are less stress resilient and more sensitive to stress.

Christina McClurken: 38:45

And when I say stress, it can be in all forms. A lot of people think the perceived stress like I got a deadline at work, my kids are driving me crazy, I'm playing parent Uber, I've got sports games to go to, right. But that's one form of that's perceived stress. But there is circadian stress, which is where sleep comes into the stress mix there are. There is stress from, you know, imbalanced blood sugar. That's inflammatory stress, right, there's. There's stress in our body on that. There's stress from the toxins in the food we eat and the environment we have in our cleaning products and our all of that sort of stuff. So, um, and there's stress from exercising too much, right, there's stress from moving too little. So it really is.

Christina McClurken: 39:20

When I talk about stress, it's about mitigating all forms of stress on the body as best we can. And that's where you'll hear sleep like tied into that, even though I think sleep is its own separate entity. But I really kind of am training women. When you're thinking of the perceived stress is that we're looking at nervous system regulation. So how often during the day can we activate that parasympathetic nervous system? Because when that's activated, the sympathetic is not. They cannot be going at the same time. So using simple things like breath work, right, like three squared breaths, quickest way to activate your parasympathetic nervous system grounding, you know, can be things like a guided meditation, a quick gratitude practice, a journaling. So when we're talking stress, as in the perceived stress, um, that is really how I'm talking about it. It's like let's actually talk about it as nervous system regulation. So taking out out of our stress nervous system and into our rest nervous system.

Philip Pape: 40:08

And what are your thoughts when it comes to perceived stress, if you can't change a situation right which is oftentimes true, but two different people perceive the same stressor differently, causing different internal stress in that part of the nervous system, so do you talk through that? Are there mechanisms where people can let things go when they happen to them?

Christina McClurken: 40:29

Yeah, yeah, and.

Christina McClurken: 40:30

I use a lot of. That's where it comes from. It's not about, like, everyone's perception, like you said, it's different. This is subjective, it's not objective. So it's more about you know.

Christina McClurken: 40:39

I always get that cliche saying like what happens around you is not a match for what happens within you. So it's like it's not about removing the stressors in your life. We're about mitigating the stress on your nervous system. So it might take somebody, you know, and that's some salt bath for a half hour, some legs up against the wall of meditation and 20 minutes of breathing to get over a snafu during their day, where for somebody else it might take, okay, a quick little release, like, and that's it. So that's on a person to person basis.

Christina McClurken: 41:06

It's about how, you know, I always say we have this like stress management toolbox and it's like how many tools do we need to pull out of the toolbox at any given time? And that is going to be based on your perceived amount of stress. So, um, you know, for one person it might mean like, yeah, let's just insert a little bit of midday breath work like a physiological site, and that's enough for them. For someone else, it's like well, I'm doing that, but I'm still, like you know short, with my kids craving sweets and all this stuff, then we need to add in a little bit more layers to that puzzle.

Philip Pape: 41:33

Okay, and I asked do you know Adam Badger? And he's in our group.

Christina McClurken: 41:36

Yeah, he's local to me. Actually I was on his podcast.

Philip Pape: 41:40

So he was on the show, I was on his and he was on my show and his episode will be coming out soon Probably a little before yours actually and one of his specialties seems to be helping people understand the trigger of why they react the way they do to stressors, and I just thought that was a very intriguing. Yet other helpful angle for folks, cause I was thinking of my own life, how I used to like be road rage was easy to come to me and then I, and then I had kids and I got too many speeding tickets and I started to like actually obey the speeding laws and then when I met my wife was like super kind and forgiving of people and she'd be like that guy's just having a bad day and I started to integrate that thinking just by osmosis. We're now like all this shit on the road doesn't really affect me and I'm like, well, can we train ourselves by digging into the tree? That's why I bring it up. It's just a cool. No, I love that. I'm actually reading.

Christina McClurken: 42:28

I don't know if you've ever heard of the motion code and the body code, so I just but yeah, I use a lot of you know and just pulling from my own experience because, as we were talking about the cancer card of my family before you know, when I was going through some real hard times with my sister being ill and I'm an empath and I worked in healthcare and I was working with sick patients, I was just holding everything right, like everything.

Philip Pape: 42:54

Oh, you were a vessel for everyone's emotional stress.

Christina McClurken: 43:02

And so you were a vessel for everyone's emotional stress, and so I do work with women on specific mantras and things and affirmations that can help them. So one of my favorite ones that has become now a favorite of my clients is when you're supporting people through things, I would say to myself I help but I don't hold. I'm helping you but I'm not holding this energy. Or I care but I don't carry. I care about you but I'm not carrying this as something that's happening to me or you, but I'm not carrying this as like something that's happening to me. And or deep breaths, like you know, inhaling, saying I release and a big, open mouth exhale, I let go.

Christina McClurken: 43:23

So I really use kind of strategic things and mantras because, as we know, those have to like, resonate with you, to use, but like for each individual and whatever they're going through. And this is why coaching is coaching right, it's not a transfer of information, it's not just I manage your stress and get seven, eight hours of sleep. It's like let's actually dig into your own stressors and what will help you around that. So, yeah, I definitely believe there is a nuance to all of that, depending on the person, depending on how they react in response to certain things, and then what tools I can give them to help them manage that on their own. Got it.

Berkeley: 44:02

Hello, I am Berkeley and I wanted to give a huge thank you to Philip of Wits and Weights. He has helped me so much, gave me a completely free 30 minute call where he answered all of my questions, gave lots of great insight into programming and nutrition. All of his content is really wonderful and he has a great Facebook group that is supportive and informational. He has tons of free resources that I really really enjoy and they're all super science-based. What I really love about Philip is that he always updates his guides and he makes time to answer any questions, even though I am not currently a paying client. He really has helped me so much and I'm just so grateful.

Philip Pape: 44:49

All right. So there's something you like to talk about that is also very popular now and the research is still being developed. It's gut health, right. Well, I want to talk about that because it's one of your pillars, it's like a whole pillar, right, and that's important because I used to be kind of skeptical. This is like two years ago. I was just getting into coaching, like what is this? But it's powerful. Tell us why it's so important to everything.

Christina McClurken: 45:11

Yeah, yeah, I mean, you'll hear a lot of those terms Like the gut is the second brain. I actually kind of think of it as like the first brain. You know it's not just brain communicating down to the gut, it is absolutely the other way around as well. So you know the gut brain access is very for real. So, psychologically, what's going on with us will affect our gut. What's going on our gut will affect us psychologically. So when we, you know our gut, if you think of it as this, you know the microbiome, right, this big series of all these little microbes in there. You know they're all feeding off of what we put in our body, right, and if they're not healthy, then we could be eating all the healthy food in the world and not absorbing those nutrients, right, and so and there's a lot of women who are coming from a place of, yeah, completely eliminating food groups, right, and if you're eliminating an entire food group, the microbes that like to feed off, that will die off until you start to feed them again. There's people that might be coming from something like Optivia, eating a lot of highly processed foods. Right, your body's not getting nourished, it's not getting the nutrients that it needs and it cannot translate those to you and your body. And sometimes that's why women wonder I lost all this weight on a program like that, but I felt like crap.

Christina McClurken: 46:13

My stomach hurt, my digestion was really crappy, Crappy. No, I'm dead dead literally. I mean I came from healthcare. There's never TMI. I think of bowel movements as like an additional vital sign, so it's kind of an inclination of what's going on in your body.

Christina McClurken: 46:28

And inflammation stems from the gut. We both know systemic inflammation is one of the biggest disruptors of your weight loss attempts, fat loss attempts. So we really do have to care for our gut and the way I do that. Again, without being eliminating foods or being nitpicky, I'm all about nutrition by addition, right. So when we part of my plate is, yes, two to three cups of veggies, but how many different colors are you getting right? Those sort of things? The whole foods, the new. That's why we're choosing our empowered choices and not our sometimes foods all the time, because those empowered ones are feeding our gut with what they need to to digest our food properly. You know our serotonin is made in the gut primarily. So if you're wondering why your mood is imbalanced, we have to have a healthy gut to have a happy life. So, yeah, it's an entire pillar built in, because if we're not-.

Philip Pape: 47:11

Some amylose is tied to the gut.

Christina McClurken: 47:13

Yeah, exactly. So you know it's a pillar that, again, I address in, not a way that we have to. You know, I'm not bombarding people with tons of supplements, because I think that's also one of the worst things. There are certain ones. Yes, I'm a functional nutritionist. I strategically supplement with people that who need it. But a lot of people are looking for, you know, the, the bloat, debloat pill or something on Instagram, or not even slowing down enough to chew our food Right, even slowing down enough to chew our food right. So we, you know I talk about even the process of chewing and meal hygiene and how it impacts your digestion and then what you absorb from your food, and so it's all built in around the habits and the plate that we are working on improving our gut health throughout.

Philip Pape: 47:50

Yeah, and even even, like you mentioned supplements, prebiotics, probiotics, people think supplement, and yet the food you eat and how it ferments in your gut creates all of those four Correct yeah, so in my gut health module we talk about the prebiotics, the probiotics, the postbiotics, which are made by the two, and what those roles play, so that again it becomes okay.

Christina McClurken: 48:07

I'm choosing my foods now because I know the benefit they're having in my body, not just because it was on an approved or not approved list.

Philip Pape: 48:13

Yeah, and you mentioned different colors and diversity of food. I mean, if I suppose, if you're trying to get a certain amount of fiber and vegetables, naturally you're going to have a little more diversity. But do you, do you advise on specifics like, hey, get different types of apples, different types of this, different like to that level of diversity?

Christina McClurken: 48:35

bottom, like how many colors you know are you getting? Yeah, for that reason, because obviously, like you know, our purple veggies are going to come on and red are going to come along with different than green and orange and um, so that's really kind of you know, the. It's again a visual representation of just be mindful that we're getting different colors. And I'm not, you know, I'm a very realistic person. So if I have someone that comes in, they're like I don't like veggies that much. I'm like let's pick the one or two you like and let's roll with that at first, right? So again, it's just part of the process eventually. So if I don't want someone stressing over not getting you know 10 different colors of veggies in a week, if there's fruit too, right, yeah, well, exactly, exactly, yeah.

Philip Pape: 49:13

No, I asked that cause I man who was on the show a long time, a long time ago he was great Um, judson Brewer I think it was Dr Judson Brewer talking about all the different compounds and the different varieties of the same types of fruits and vegetables can help with your gut bacteria. I'm just curious. I'm going to call out the carnivore people here, uh, and you're going to call them out with me, I think. And basically, what do you say to the person who's like I did carnivore, I cut out all my fiber. Now I did carnivore, I cut out all my fiber. Now I'm feeling great, everything's awesome, and of course, it's the one. It's the you know this is going to work for everybody type of deal. My theory is just you know you did an elimination diet and you're just haven't reintroduced anything.

Christina McClurken: 49:49

Yeah, I mean I think you know you cannot. If you know this fiber is not a sexy topic, right? So there's not a million Instagram reels on the power of fiber, although they're coming now, like there is protein and stuff. But you cannot, if you go and read any of the research, right, you cannot deny that you are significantly lacking. You know you're a vitamin and mineral deficient if you are only eating meat. And you know, oftentimes you know, having worked in healthcare, I did counsel a lot of clients on nutrition and I would encounter some that were doing carnivore and were great, and then a few months down the road they've got gallstones and kidney issues and you know. So I think that there is.

Christina McClurken: 50:25

This is why I always say my approach is health first, weight loss, because, sure, carnivore might help you lose weight Great. But you cannot deny that when you're removing a lot of essential vitamins, minerals, nutrients from your body, which we get from our fiber and our gut, there's eventually going to be a catch to that right, your body will let you know. So, again, I think, when we're talking about weight loss, there's a million ways to do it that might not contribute to long-term health, and so I and I'm not opposed to those for short periods of time, if that's what people choose to use. But again, having worked with geriatrics and people who only wish they could go back in time and get their health back, you can't deny that having those foods in your repertoire that are providing you with fiber and all of those sort of things are eventually going to be needed to be reintroduced.

Philip Pape: 51:15

Yeah, I agree, and it's one thing to have flexibility and say, well, if it works for you, but it's another thing is long-term, is it really working for?

Christina McClurken: 51:23

if you're not tracking the right things here no-transcript cake on your birthday, right, or your wife's birthday, Like I value that and maybe not, but eventually you know there's going to said you mainly work with peripostmenopausal women who aren't like big, huge into lifting.

Philip Pape: 52:10

Do you ever work with, like physique goal oriented folks who are wanting to be really precise and are they tracking?

Christina McClurken: 52:13

or do some of them also use this approach? So some it depends Again, some of them are using this approach and having great success with that and some of them I do try to understand into tracking and I will say I kind of am like the backward approach, where most people will come in and have a program where you track macros and the goal is eventually to wean off, to not track macros Right. So I actually do the reverse. We come in and we actually like, don't track that stuff, because we get them back in touch with you know, understanding how their body works hunger, fullness, why we're choosing the foods we are, how to balance our plate, biofeedback from an actual like in, you know, inside, we get it now.

Christina McClurken: 52:43

Then all there is people that then we're like, okay, now we're at a point where we need the more meticulous data and then we go to tracking right, and then we go to tracking and then now usually, even if they've, this is where I am in my life Now I can do that without being swayed by numbers or having that negative connotation, because I've kind of relearned that process.

Christina McClurken: 53:02

So there are people that we definitely end up now Okay, and even even someone who's maybe doesn't have extreme physique goals. But now we're just kind of stuck right. We're like it seems on paper that we're doing everything right but the scale is not moving. So like let's actually put numbers to this because, as you know, there's an human error in tracking, even whether it be in, you know, writing it down or in an app and so yeah, so then we'll, we'll use it and, like I said, I tend to use chronometer or chronometer, I don't even know how you say it, but it is my favorite, because then we can also look at, you know, vitamin and mineral and are there gaps that we need to fill in and that sort of thing, when people are getting a little bit more, more in that we want to optimize, kind of stage.

Philip Pape: 53:36

Yeah, that makes sense. You got a right tool for the job, depending on what level of precision you're trying to get, um, even if it is by hand. That's why you made your tracker, so that's awesome. Um, do you have time for a couple of rapid fire questions? Absolutely, love it. All right. So what food is worst for your blood sugar balance, if that's a thing um, it's not a food, it is how you eat the food right?

Christina McClurken: 53:58

So I say food organization, not elimination. I think there was this time where it was like pick the lowest glycemic index, everything. Well, you can essentially lower the glycemic index again by pairing it with protein and fiber. So my whole thing is just try not to eat carbs alone and pair it with fat protein, because that will buffer the blood sugar response. So the worst thing for your blood sugar is to just eat a simple burning carb on its own. That you know. Yeah.

Philip Pape: 54:22

Is there a caveat right before you lift?

Christina McClurken: 54:26

weights, your muscles will put it to use. And then but, I, also still think you should have some protein before you lift weights. Well, that is when I tell people have the simplest carb you can find right. Like we're not talking high fiber or anything right before you go lift.

Philip Pape: 54:43

For sure, for sure, and there's other reasons for that which we're not going to get into. Yeah, is there?

Christina McClurken: 54:46

one habit you would say is most important than all others for success Sleep, yeah, sleep, okay, yeah. I think sleep sets people up for success. I think people don't realize the effect it has on your eating choices the next day, your hunger, your craving. So if I could say that the habit and break it down to the micro habit, get off your phone an hour before bed, that's the habit.

Philip Pape: 55:01

I can see that, because it's also one of the hardest, I think, for people to change. It's just so ingrained in, like everything about your life. So then my next question is what is the hardest of your pillars, would you say the most challenging to implement? Is it the sleepers and one of the other ones?

Christina McClurken: 55:15

Gosh, you know, I really think the mindset pillar is probably the hardest for a lot of people and again, that there's so much that we encompass, whether it be relationship with the hood, behavior change, right, the all or nothing thinking. So I, and that is what will hold everybody up, you know, it's how long we can get to before we can kind of really peel back the layers of the onion of the mindset.

Philip Pape: 55:33

Yeah, and that can be its own episode.

Christina McClurken: 55:34

We didn't even dive too much into that.

Philip Pape: 55:35

But yeah, much about that. But yeah, how long you talk about hunger cues. So how long does it take for someone to see their hunger cues? Basically normalizing, let's say.

Christina McClurken: 55:45

I mean it can happen in a week. I've done even like a free challenge. I did in January. The first week was the theme was protein and produce right and it was just like get 30 grams at your meals, get your two to three cups of veggies. The amount of people that are like I can't believe. My hunger, my cravings, that nighttime like binging is gone in like five days. So it can take. It's like rapid fire if, depending on you, know where you've come in in your life. But to actually feel that physiological difference it can happen in three days.

Philip Pape: 56:11

Yeah, that's good. That's good for people to know. It's not even though you have to be patient for some of this. That can happen quickly. What's the most overrated supplement that people keep recommending?

Christina McClurken: 56:21

I would say, oh my God, there's so many that yeah, there are, it's a tough question right.

Christina McClurken: 56:26

That could be a whole nother episode itself, but I think you know, I honestly will say supplements like the, you know, melatonin I'm just going to say that for state and I'm going to use this example because, and whether it's melatonin or some other, like nighttime sleepy something, I'm all for it, right, but it's a supplement and it cannot take the place of you should not be scrolling your phone till 11 and popping a melatonin to try to go to bed, right? Well, I think, I think a lot of these sleep supplements because the world is slow, so sleep deprived, and that is one of the things that almost everybody struggles with that they're trying to supplement for when, when they're not realizing that if we can get natural sunlight during the day, balance our blood sugar, stop eating two hours before bedtime and get off our phone and like dim our lights, you're going to sleep way better. And you could save that 80 bucks a month on your like sleep supplement.

Philip Pape: 57:13

For sure I love my Amber. Amber glasses. You know throw them on at night, um, and I just started using a pillow that helps my head kind of hang back a little bit. So you know I'm a, I'm a side sleeper, so I'm trying to be a back sleeper now and kind of support my neck a little bit more evenly.

Christina McClurken: 57:29

It's a little bit of things like that.

Philip Pape: 57:31

It's um, it's a oh my gosh, I should know what it is, Cause I had them on. I just had them on the show. You can put me on the spot, Dr Martoni Neck nest.

Christina McClurken: 57:40

I use pillow eyes. It's one of the like PTs and chiropractors use, like a little curve, and I love it too. It makes I sleep on my back as much as I can too.

Philip Pape: 57:47

Yeah, you can get that cervical spine supported, and I wear a sleep mask too, which is so awesome.

Christina McClurken: 57:52

Yeah.

Philip Pape: 57:53

Okay, last one, what's the number one benefit? Your clients report. That has nothing to do with weight loss or fat loss to fit your client's report.

Christina McClurken: 58:00

that has nothing to do with weight loss or fat loss, not fearing food anymore, being able to eat like a normal human. I always say that's like the goal of my program is like I can just eat, like I think many of us forget, like what it's like to just eat and not, you know, over-.

Philip Pape: 58:11

Confidence in food and like you're not going to lose control. That's awesome, all right. Is there anything we didn't cover? I know there's a million things. Oh my.

Christina McClurken: 58:24

God, I know I could talk to you for days Anything you wish. I asked in this topic specifically around tracking and not tracking. Yeah, no, I don't think. I think the take-home message should be when people hear like you can lose weight without tracking, it's really not. As you know, we need to track right, we need data.

Philip Pape: 58:36

It's not quote-unquote, just like not tracking.

Christina McClurken: 58:38

You know, and there's there's guidelines to it that are going to inherently build in that control, but it's like we are tracking. It's just a way to track without numbers, without weighing and measuring, as you know, so that you feel like you're not, I guess, like so encompassed by by all of that sort of stuff. So just to remove the stress, but there, but there's always got to be tracking to it, because you know, like we say, what good measures get managed, so we have to have an awareness of some way. It's just a different form of tracking right To, to pull a little bit of stress off that.

Philip Pape: 59:05

I agree, and you're covering the key variables, Like, I think, even people who subscribe to tracking calories and macros. Like you said, if it's just about macros, you are missing out on so much other context. But if you can put it as part of an overall system and now you can kind of pick and choose pieces that work for you. There was Dr Sarah Balanzai. She was on the show and she wrote the book Nutrivor and it's funny because she has a little comment in there about like you don't have to track calories and macros, but then she has a tracker based on nutrient quality. So I'm like, okay, there you go. So anyway, where can people find you, Christina?

Christina McClurken: 59:37

They can find me on Instagram at it's underscore Christina, underscore McClurkin, which I'm sure you can write that out, and my website is yourhealthybestiecom.

Philip Pape: 59:47

Awesome, we will do that. Let's see website and IG. We'll throw that in the show notes. Thank you so much, christina. It was a lot of fun. Listeners are always looking for just different approaches. Something's going to work for them, something's going to resonate, so I hope they reach out to you if that's right for them.

Christina McClurken: 1:00:00

Amazing. Thank you so much. I totally enjoyed it it was a lot of fun.

How to Lose Fat and Gain Muscle WITHOUT Bulking or Cutting (Jeff Hoehn) | Ep 309

Get the other part of this conversation on Jeff's podcast "The Mind Muscle Connection" to hear Philip discussing more aggressive approaches to body recomposition

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Can you lose fat and build muscle at the same time, without gaining or losing weight, but instead by eating at maintenance calories to achieve the holy grail of body recomposition (aka "body recomp")?

Jeff Hoehn of The Mind Muscle Connection podcast and I break down what's possible and how to adjust your diet and training to create an environment for body recomp at maintenance. You'll learn the realities of this approach and who will benefit most from it.

This is one part of a special two-part collaboration. Don't miss the companion episode on Jeff's podcast where Philip covers slightly more aggressive approaches to body recomp.

Main Takeaways:

• Is body recomposition at maintenance actually possible, and for whom?

• The surprising truth about what happens to your weight during successful recomposition

• Why your training approach matters more than you might think

• The often-overlooked nutritional strategy that can make or break your results

• How tracking progress differs when you're not focused on weight loss or gain

• The hidden lifestyle factors that determine your recomp success

• Why the maintenance approach might be more sustainable than traditional methods

Timestamps:

0:01 - What is "body recomp" at maintenance?
3:03 - The science behind simultaneous fat loss and muscle gain
5:28 - Who body recomposition at maintenance works best for
10:17 - Maintenance vs. slight surplus for muscle building
14:09 - Common problems and pitfalls with the maintenance approach
20:20 - How to track progress when the scale isn't changing much
24:45 - The value of tracking weight as data
28:19 - The role of lifestyle factors in successful body recomposition

Listen to the other part of this conversation on Jeff's podcast "The Mind Muscle Connection" to hear Philip discussing more aggressive approaches to body recomposition

Recomp Done Right: How to Build Muscle and Lose Fat Without Bulking or Cutting

You don’t have to stuff your face to bulk or starve yourself to get lean. There’s a better way to change your physique—one that doesn’t require weight fluctuations, yo-yo dieting, or playing mental games with the scale. It’s called body recomposition at maintenance, and it might be the exact strategy you need right now.

In this episode, Jeff Hoehn and I talk through the maintenance-based approach to recomposition—how to build muscle and lose fat (or at least reduce body fat percentage) without dramatically changing your body weight. If you’re tired of the extremes, keep reading.

What Is Recomp at Maintenance?

Body recomposition is simply the process of building muscle while losing fat. You end up with a leaner, stronger, more athletic physique—even if the scale doesn’t move much (or at all). Recomp at maintenance means your calorie intake stays roughly the same, but the quality of your inputs—training, nutrition, sleep, stress—gets dialed in.

In other words, you’re not in a bulk or a cut. You’re staying steady in calories, but changing your body from the inside out.

Can You Really Build Muscle and Lose Fat Without Changing Weight?

Yes—but it depends.

You can build muscle and lose fat at the same time, especially if:

• You're new to resistance training or coming back after a break

• You’ve dieted a lot in the past and never trained properly

• You’re “skinny fat” and want to reshape your body without gaining weight

• You’re not super lean but don’t have a ton of fat to lose either

However, if you're already lean and have been training consistently for years, it’s harder to make dramatic changes without entering a surplus. For more advanced lifters, a slight surplus is often needed to maximize growth.

The Hidden Benefit of Maintenance: Changing Body Fat Percentage

Even if you’re not losing pounds of fat, you can still lower your body fat percentage by adding lean mass.

Think of it like this:
If you weigh 160 lbs at 25% body fat, that’s 120 lbs lean mass and 40 lbs fat.
If you stay at 160 lbs but build 5 lbs of muscle, now you’re 125 lbs lean mass and 35 lbs fat = 21.9% body fat. That’s recomp.

Who Is This Best For?

Maintenance-based recomp works well if:

• You’ve been yo-yo dieting and want to rebuild metabolism and muscle

• You want to look like you lift without the ups and downs of bulking/cutting

• You have a bit of fat to lose but don’t want to aggressively diet again

• You’re motivated by strength, performance, and body composition—not the scale

It’s not ideal if you need to drop 30+ lbs of fat. In that case, a focused fat loss phase is more efficient.

What Makes It Work? (Spoiler: It's Not the Calories)

Calories are only part of the story. What really drives body recomposition is your inputs:

• Progressive strength training (compound lifts, consistent overload)

• Adequate protein intake (0.8–1.0 g per pound of goal body weight)

• Meal timing around training (especially pre- and post-workout carbs and protein)

• Recovery, sleep, and stress management

• Daily habits and structure, including consistency with tracking

If your training sucks, your recomp will too. The signal to grow muscle has to be loud and clear—especially if you’re not in a surplus.

Common Mistakes That Ruin Recomp

If maintenance-based recomp isn’t working for you, it might be because of:

• Unstructured eating habits (under-eating during the week, binging on weekends)

• Skipping meals, especially around training

• Not tracking accurately (or at all)

• Inconsistent protein intake

• Poor training performance (too little volume or intensity)

• Too much stress, not enough sleep

You can’t expect high-level results from low-effort habits. Recomp is slower than bulking or cutting, so your execution has to be tighter.

How to Track Progress Without Losing Motivation

This is one of the biggest challenges. People want dramatic changes, and maintenance doesn’t feel exciting on paper. So how do you stay motivated?

Track:

• Training performance (are your lifts going up?)

• Progress photos (every 4–6 weeks)

• How you feel (energy, libido, mood, hunger)

• Circumference measurements (waist, hips, etc.)

• Sleep quality and stress levels

And yes, still weigh yourself, even if your goal isn’t weight change. The scale provides important feedback about your energy balance. Just understand that daily fluctuations are normal and long-term trends matter more.

Should You Aim Slightly Above or Below Maintenance?

Depends on your psychology and your history.

If you’ve under-eaten in the past, you may benefit from pushing slightly above maintenance (e.g. 100–150 kcal/day over). That upward drift in body weight—just 3–5 lbs over a year—is often where the best results happen.

If you’re more worried about fat gain, you might stick right at calculated maintenance (with precise tracking). Either way, be honest about what’s working. Are you getting stronger? Is your body composition improving? Adjust accordingly.

Final Thought: You Need to EARN the Right to Cut

Maintenance isn’t just a holding zone. It’s a productive phase that:

• Rebuilds your metabolism

• Improves training performance

• Grows muscle without added fat

• Sets you up for a more effective future cut (if you decide to do one)

So if you’ve been spinning your wheels chasing fat loss or feel afraid to bulk, this might be your ideal path.

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Get notified of new episodes. Listen on Apple, Spotify, or all other platforms.

Then hit “Follow” and you’re good to go!

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Transcript

Philip Pape: 0:01

If you are daunted by the thought of force-feeding yourself to bulk for muscle, but fear gaining fat or aggressively dieting to cut for fat loss, this episode will give you a new perspective. The question we're asking is can you lose fat and build muscle at the same time, without gaining or losing weight, but instead by eating at or maintenance calories to achieve the holy grail of body recomposition? My guest and I will break down what's possible and how to adjust your diet and training, and you'll learn about the realities of body recomp at maintenance and how to create an environment to get the results you want. Welcome to Wits and Weights, the show that helps you build a strong, healthy physique using evidence, engineering and efficiency. I'm your host, philip Pape, and today I've got something special lined up with my friend, jeff Hain, host of the Mind Muscle Connection podcast. Jeff and I decided to tackle body recomposition, which is your ability to build muscle and lose fat at the same time, but from two different angles, on our two shows. So today, on Wits and Weights, you're going to hear us focus on the maintenance approach. Can you transform your body without drastically changing your calorie intake? And if you enjoy this conversation, make sure and follow Jeff's podcast Again, the Mind Muscle Connection, where I jump on as a guest to discuss body recomp, but using slight surpluses and deficits rather than maintenance.

Philip Pape: 1:43

Now, if you guys don't know Jeff, he's been on the show a few times. We've collaborated for a long time. He's a great guy, a really honorable authentic fitness professional out there, and he's helped lots of clients probably hundreds, probably thousands at this point transform their bodies with evidence-based methods. His knowledge in body recomp has made him kind of a go-to expert for people looking to do this. So that's why I thought this would be valuable for you guys. So I want you to listen carefully today to learn what you can and cannot do at maintenance to maximize your results, regardless of your experience level. All right, jeff, thank you for coming on again and welcome to the show. Let's get into it.

Jeff Hoehn: 2:18

Yeah, man, I'm looking forward to chatting about this and having both of these angles here.

Philip Pape: 2:28

I think it will be super uh interesting for the, for the listener. Yeah, we were joking, as we prepared for this, that, um, maybe we're going to disappoint people because everyone wants the holy grail body recomp. And you hear, like a lot of marketing around this like, yeah, just build muscle, lose fat at the same time. Um, I even hear some of the big names like, um, uh, holly baxter, you know she's actually gonna be on the show man, if, if you can believe it, holly Baxter is big into like let's just stay near maintenance and you can build a ton of muscle and lose fat. So what I want to address first is, like, what does the science say behind that? In general, can you lose fat and build muscle at the same time? And then we can get into like, who and what situations can work at maintenance or not work.

Jeff Hoehn: 3:03

Yeah, yeah. So, like you said, you know, it's kind of a misconception, right, that that you can't, you know, do both at the same time. And you, and you certainly can, Um, you know, and the research does back this up. I know there was a study from Bearcat a couple of years ago and they looked at advanced, you know, people that had been training for a little while and they were able to gain muscle and lose body fat, right, you know, there's kind of that misconception that you need to if you want to build muscle, you need to be in this like large surplus to do that.

Jeff Hoehn: 3:28

And again, we'll, I'm sure, throughout this we'll, we'll dive into the specifics of where that might be, you know, feasible at and where that makes the most sense. But you know, a lot, of a lot of people have I tell people this a lot of people have a lot larger of a runway to do this than they, than they think. Um, you know, I think a lot of people just say, oh, you know, I've been training for a couple of years, I can't do it. But, um, again, as I'm sure we'll get into, there's a lot of things that go into it that people are not maximizing, um, where they're going to be able to. You know, see this, this simultaneous fat loss and muscle gain, Um, but again, it is that kind of holy grail is going to depend. It's going to be in the right situation and I think our inputs are going to be super important as well in that process.

Philip Pape: 4:10

Yeah. So I really want to get right to the what you probably hear and I hear as well People that haven't gone through this before, haven't cut, haven't bulked, maybe aren't even attracting their nutrition and they're like I don't want to gain a bunch of weight because I'm going to get fat and I don't want to have to diet because that sounds miserable and I've tried it before. I really want to gain like 15, 20 pounds of muscle and I want to do it at maintenance, like is that even possible? And again, we can break down from there, like the situations and scenarios behind it.

Jeff Hoehn: 4:37

Yeah, so I think so. So let's, because I kind of, before we talked about this, we kind of had an outline planned out when we were talking about you know, my approach was we were going to talk about the maintenance side of things and you said, you know, lose fat and build muscle. I'm like I kind of said, hey, I didn't want to ruin that episode right away by just saying, hey, being at maintenance, the downside with being at maintenance is you're probably not, probably you're not going to really lose any amount of body fat when you're truly at your maintenance. You know calories and again, we can talk about what exactly maintenance calories is, but that's going to be the one downside. However, you the question you specifically asked was hey, I want to gain, you know, say, 15 to 20 pounds of muscle. Can I do that at maintenance? And I believe you can totally do that at maintenance calories right now and saying that this is where it gets a little confusing. But you know, if you're gaining tissue and again, via, via muscle, you are going to you probably see your body weight trend up.

Jeff Hoehn: 5:28

So it's going to get a little confusing in terms of, like you may not actually keep your exact same body weight, right. So that's where things can get a little bit kind of confusing. If you're just looking at numbers and based off of of body weight, Right. But if we're talking specifically, hey, you're at maintenance calories and you don't want to gain a ton of body fat, you can certainly do that, um, and again, I I'll go into this. But I guess the thing that you could do, though and this is where maybe some people get confused is you know you could theoretically lose by, like your body fat percentage could decrease by kind of taking this approach, right, um, because, again, you're increasing your, your lean body mass, um, and you know, again, if your weight's not really trending up a ton, you know you may see your, your body fat percentage decrease a bit here, uh, in this process. So I don't know if I answered your specific question on that, but you did and you, you hit the nuance on the head right there.

Philip Pape: 6:17

There are a couple different subtle scenarios near maintenance, one of which you just said is you can build muscle, you may even gain weight, you're kind of at maintenance or slightly above, but your body recomp is changing without losing fat necessarily. But your, you know your body fat percentage goes down. It's just numbers. If you have more muscle as a percentage of your body, you have lower body fat percentage and that is recomp. So I think people need to understand that. But you also said that you can't like lose meaningful fat in terms of just pounds of fat, unless you're in a deficit, which is a whole different situation. So when people understand that if they have like 20 or 30 pounds to lose fat, is it the most efficient approach? And this leads me to the question of who is it right for, who can benefit, who should waste the time at maintenance let's call it when they should be in a deficit, versus those who would like really maximize the results this way?

Jeff Hoehn: 7:08

Yeah. So, like you said, I mean, you're not going to get, you know, you're not going to have this crazy amount of of body fat loss here at this, right. So to me, who would benefit the most from this? Well, this is going to be somebody who maybe you're quote, unquote skinny fat or you've, like, done a ton of diets in the past and you've just always focused on like weight loss in the past. And you just always focused on like weight loss in the past, right, and? And usually that approach is going to lead to somebody not really ever focusing on like hypertrophy style training. It was usually, you know, the the kind of avatar I'm thinking of as someone who, like, cuts out all their carbs, go super low calorie, just does a ton of cardio, right, and again, that's probably not going to be great from a muscle, lean body mass standpoint. So I think that person who's like yo-yoed in the past and always focused on just weight loss and like just being their small self, that's somebody who I think could benefit from being around their maintenance calories and really focusing on on adding muscle in that process, right, you're not actively trying to see your body weight go down. Maybe it comes up a little bit, but you're again like we said. You're, you're decreasing your body fat percentage and, um, again you're kind of getting rid of that. That skinny fat, look right. So that's one person that I think would benefit the most from that.

Jeff Hoehn: 8:13

And then another person that would benefit would be someone who, again, muscle is. You want to add a ton of muscle, but you're also not necessarily as lean as you want to be yet, right. And so again, this kind of comes around to someone who's again always kind of fat loss dieted, or maybe you just don't want a fat loss diet right now, right. And again, adding more muscle is super important to you.

Jeff Hoehn: 8:36

To me, that's going to be someone who is going to benefit a ton from being at, you know, their maintenance calories and trying to, um, just focus on, on, on that. And again, you're not like super lean either, right, cause the leaner you are, the tougher this is going to be. To build muscle at maintenance, you're going to have to, you know, have a little bit of body fat on your body. So I think, really long story it's going to be most beneficial for someone who's dieted a ton in the past. You aren't super lean, but you aren't. Uh, yeah, you're not super lean, but you also maybe aren't necessarily like super overweight either. Because again, in that situation you probably would be better off kind of going at the approach, you know, more of a fat loss kind of a style approach there.

Philip Pape: 9:12

uh, with that, yeah, it makes sense and again it always comes out to. It depends on what's your training history, what's your dieting history, what is your goal right now? Cause I I'm sure you've met lots of guys who have a little extra fat and they're not ready for fat loss. So what? Here's an interesting thing I've seen come up lately, jeff, and I wasn't really aware of it so much more than like a year and a half ago.

Philip Pape: 9:36

But there are definitely a lot of influencers and some very respected guys out there who lift a lot, who will say you never really need to gain a lot of weight or be in a surplus. You could always be. You could always be in a little bit of a maintenance plus mode, you know, like just just riding just above maintenance and feeding yourself every day, never falling into a deficit, really, and you can get tremendous results, and then you don't have to worry about gaining a bunch of fat. But then we have, like Helms et al right, the, the, the study that came out was it last year that showed we could actually go more aggressively than we thought and not gain fat. So what are, what is your thoughts on maintenance being kind of this Holy grail for building muscle when it's like just above maintenance. You know what I mean.

Jeff Hoehn: 10:17

Yeah Well, again, I mean, the key is going to be you're going to, you know you're going to limit, you know body fat gain in that process. But again, if you're like on the leaner side and you already have a good amount of muscle, again that's probably not going to be the right approach for you. You're probably going to need to be in a small surplus. Um, and again, if you really want to build a ton of muscle, right, like I think that that's another person that, like you're going to probably need to be in a small surplus. But most people don't necessarily want to be bodybuilder style, you know, uh, muscle size, right. So, like for them, to me it makes a little bit more sense to not have to be in this surplus, to then, you know, kind of have to cut it all off later on, right, I just feel like people do a lot of kind of yo-yoing, uh, with that uh approach, right. And again, the big thing being like what we do in that process is super important, like maximizing our training, right, that so it's geared towards hypertrophy, you know, setting up your lifestyle so that you're in a good spot to add muscle, right. And then you know, same thing with nutrition, like making sure those things are dialed in. You know, the more we can get all those things dialed in, the more likely you're going to be able to ensure that you're going to build muscle without, you know, gaining body fat and really not needing as big of a surplus or needing one at all. So again, I think it really comes down to our methods and what we do. That's going to be the biggest thing.

Jeff Hoehn: 11:32

What I see happen a lot of times is people will think that the magic is gaining weight and like that's where, that's where they spend all their time is like just trying to see their scale weight go up. Hey, I'm in a surplus, so I'm just or I'm in a building phase, I want to try to add muscle, so I just want to see my scale weight go up and that, like is this the main thing that they focus on in that process? And they kind of overlook the inputs which ultimately, are going to really be the most important thing to tell your body to add, you know, lean body mass in that process. So hopefully that answers your question there. But that's like the big thing that we're looking at there with that is really your inputs are going to be the big thing, um, and then again, the more muscle you want to build and the leaner you are and the more muscle you have, we're going to have to shift to, you know, being in a surplus.

Jeff Hoehn: 12:13

And I always tell people this too at the end of the day, when we look at the three energy balances that we can be in and when it comes to muscle growth, the best is going to be a small surplus at the end of the day, right? If you want to absolutely maximize muscle growth, you know. If you want to absolutely maximize muscle growth, you know a small surplus is going to be the best in most situations. Second, maintenance is going to be right. There Again, you can still build a ton, a good amount of muscle around your maintenance calories. And then three, a deficit. Right, the larger the deficit, the less likely this is going to be to happen. No-transcript building muscle.

Philip Pape: 12:56

Yeah, and you pointed out that the training variables absolutely at or near the top right. Like we hear it over and over again, people focusing too much on, maybe, protein and they're not even training hard Like that. That's my problem nowadays is I've talked to people who say, look, I want to lose fat or I want to improve my body composition, I'm not worried about the training part. Tell me about the nutrition. I'm like no, no, they go together and if anything, you need to be training and then the food will follow. So we we've kind of put into buckets the type of person or the scenario you're in where you would find success from body recomp, near maintenance. It sounds like definitely, if you're maybe leaner. If you don't, um, or or no, if you're leaner, you need to build potentially more aggressively. But people have just a little bit of fat to lose or not worried about like massive fat loss. Um, training is important. Progressive overload, you know, protein, all that stuff.

Philip Pape: 13:46

What are the top one or two, I guess, problems people have when they do try to do that Like is it they accidentally fall into diets all the time? Or some lack of consistency, because maintenance you talked about it on my show a long time ago. It can be its own challenge just trying to stay in that realm. So what kind of tracking, what kind of precision, what kind of problems do people have with doing this? Yeah, so you're basically saying, like, what kind of precision, what kind of problems do people have?

Jeff Hoehn: 14:09

with doing this. Yeah, so you're basically saying like, hey, someone is they want to try to maximize building muscle here around maintenance. Like what are the big problems that people end up kind of running themselves into to not maximize this?

Philip Pape: 14:19

You got it, yep.

Jeff Hoehn: 14:20

Yeah, I mean, like you said, the big thing being the not dialing in your nutrition in terms of, like you said, under eating, potentially meal timing being a big one, right, where you know people maybe are skipping meals, maybe they have some days where they're higher calorie because they go out and eat, have you know, they have events, or maybe they just don't really care about focusing on their nutrition on that day, um, and then they have. Then they see their scale go up a little bit and now they you know they're they're like, oh boy, I got to make up for that now, and now I got to go low calorie, right, and so that is the. The trick here with being around maintenance is it does give you a little bit less wiggle room in terms of, like you know you really want to try how often you're skipping meals and like dipping into large deficits, because that is going to be something that can large deficits in the short term, because that is going to be something that over time, is going to impact your ability to add muscle and, you know, not overall body composition. So I guess it would be having unstructured nutrition days where they're either too high or too low, and again one or two here, and they're not going to make or break, but the more often those happen, that's going to lead to suboptimal body composition, uh, in the long run.

Jeff Hoehn: 15:27

And then again, meal timing, like you said, skipping meals, um, not having meals around your training sessions, uh, you know, that's one thing that I think people often overlook is the importance of meal timing around their workouts. Uh, especially in this, when we're trying to do what we're doing here, where we want to add muscle without really adding much body fat, your training is going to be super important, and so we want to make sure we set that up in the best way possible. So, again, whether that be making sure that you you know however you like to structure your meals around your workouts, but making sure you're well-fueled going into your training so you have the best training possible, making sure you're well hydrated going into your training, right.

Philip Pape: 16:03

Define that, jeff? Define that for people, jeff, just so they know that maybe keto is not the answer here, I don't know. Tell me.

Jeff Hoehn: 16:08

What do you mean? What about hydration?

Philip Pape: 16:11

Fueling yourself before your workouts?

Jeff Hoehn: 16:12

Yeah, so, just again, making sure that you're not going into your training like not having eaten for three, five plus hours. Or again, making sure you do get some carbohydrate intake, uh, around your workout, right, um, just again, making sure that we're not just again not going in to it to where you're hungry, and then that's going to impact your, your, your training performance, um, there, right Cause, again, that's going to be something that in the short term maybe you don't really notice it, but over time you take someone who times that, has really good meal timing, around their workouts compared to someone who is just lax around it. Over a year, I guarantee you the person who is on top of their meal timing is going to see much better progress from a body composition standpoint because they're going to set themselves up from a to have good training sessions, which ultimately is the most important thing to send that signal to build muscle. Um, and then also like not getting protein around your workouts either, right, whether that be? Hey, maybe you like to go work out when you first wake up, that's fine. Um, so again, after that, make sure you get some protein in at least around your sometime around your workout. Same thing there. You put someone who nails that versus someone who doesn't.

Jeff Hoehn: 17:13

The person who nails their protein around, their workout, to me, is going to have better results. You know, when you expand out, uh, their hydration, again, even a small amount of dehydration which you can't even really notice, can potentially impact performance. So, again, we want to make sure what we're hydrated, uh, there, right. So from a nutrition perspective, those are the big things. And then, obviously, like you said, you know training is super important. But if we're not on top of our like protein, and when I mean protein, like overall intake and even timing, to an extent I think you're going to uh potentially impact your, your, your muscle gain, um, and therefore your body composition over the long run.

Philip Pape: 17:50

Yeah, and, by the way, you guys, if you're listening, if you don't follow Jeff's show, follow it, because he he constantly goes into these details and like what to do under different scenarios. So we're not, we're not going to like dive into how much protein you need and all that fun stuff today, even though we both could do it for hours. What I really want the listener to understand is is this right for me? Two more things come to mind in that context.

Philip Pape: 18:12

One is how do you track this in a way that still motivates you? Because I could see you, especially if you have a new client. Do you ever get a new client that comes to you and it's like you know, I want a better body and I want to just like be a maintenance. I mean, that to me doesn't sound sexy or like something anybody would ever say, um, so like, is this a? Is this the best protocol for someone who's just doing it for the first time? Because I could see a lack of motivation from a feeling like a lack of direction. How do you address that?

Jeff Hoehn: 18:38

Yeah. So you know, again, I think it is important to see where, where the client is at and what they want to do when they when they come in. Right, because, again, if somebody is super like, again, knowing what the client wants I think is super important, right. So, again, like this if somebody is like, hey, ultimately I want to lose body fat, and we look at their history and they and they haven't dieted recently, okay, well, hey, maybe we are going to push you into a small like a deficit is going to be something that's probably going to be better for you now. But let's say, somebody wants to add muscle and like this is what they want to do that. And we look at their body composition. I'm like, hey, we could sit here and we can put you into a surplus and have you gain weight, but do I think that's going to be the best for your long term body composition? Because I think if we just focus on scale weight, that's where you're going to kind of get yourself caught up and think that you're just kind of not making progress. So it's looking at other aspects, right, and what I mean by that is, yes, you know, progress, pictures, measurements, but again, even those probably aren't going to be like this drastic change, you know, in a two, three month span, just by what we're doing here with this approach, right, so it's more so like hey, you know, training performance, like tracking that, seeing that improve, like kind of you know, connecting the dots there with the training performance. Also how they feel as well, too, right, like that's something that I'm consistently like trying to check in with clients on of like, how do you feel? Like, if you're feeling better, you're feeling strong, you just feel more flexibility, you have more energy from day to day, uh, whatever that is for the person, better libido, whatever it is like those are things that we're really going to hone in on, because I feel, like, at maintenance, you can really dial those things in. Um, so, really kind of connecting the dots there, uh, to show them improvement from that perspective, I think is is, uh, it's huge.

Jeff Hoehn: 20:20

And then again, if you take blood, like if you get your blood work checked, you know, looking at that, um, you know, those are the things that I always try to connect to, like looking at those things versus just scale weight and then explaining to them hey, if we can nail this down to where you know, we can get your habits in place here.

Jeff Hoehn: 20:36

Um, get your lifestyle habits in place. Um, you're getting stronger, you're adding some muscle. Like this is going to set you up for more effective and efficient fat loss. When we, when we get there, um, or maybe you don't even need to do that, maybe you decide like you love this and you feel soup, like your, your body composition continues to improve and then maybe you feel like you don't ever really need to fat loss diet. Or maybe you do this and then now it's like it makes fat loss um something that you just do for a very short amount of time throughout the year, just to kind of clean things up a little bit, versus like being in this endless yo-yoing where, like every time you get into fitness, you only focus on dropping weight, don't really build any habits, and then you and then it's just this kind of vicious cycle on there. So connecting the dots there with that, I think, is super important too.

Philip Pape: 21:17

For sure, and you, you talked about kind of this magic of maintenance when you were on the show before that. It can be used as a tool in in before you ever diet, you know just to dial things in after you've gone through fat loss to sustain. Now we're talking about using it strategically to potentially improve your body recomp long-term as a mode to be in.

Philip Pape: 21:35

It's hard for me to understand, Jeff, because I just so love change and like constantly seeing things happen and but some people are totally cool with it. Some people are like I don't want the, maybe the fatigue of constantly trying to add more or reduce more. So when we do talk about staying in maintenance and not looking at the scale, there still is a scale component in that maintenance, by definition, is staying right here in this like narrow range. How do people do that in terms of using the scale, or do they? Are there situations where they don't even need to? Because if, if you weigh yourself today and then six months from now you're roughly the same, hey, you're kind of at maintenance, right, I don't know what are your thoughts on that.

Jeff Hoehn: 22:14

I personally, like I try to get everyone to use the scale just as a as a tool, and like try to educate them around it, right? So, like, cause I do get some people are like, oh, you know, I just stopped using the scale Cause it gets in my head. It's like, well, I want to work on that because we need to like figure that out. This is just data at the end of the day, right, so I like to make sure somebody takes, you know, their, their scale weight there, cause I just think that, again, it's a great way to kind of learn what's actually going on, because, at the end of the day, we do need to take that, because that's going to tell us the energy balance that we are in, uh in, in that process, right, so I think it's super important as far as, like, what, what I'm looking for on the scale. Again, this is, as I've said, with everything so far, it's going to be very context dependent on the person, but you know what I mean by that is, if you just got done with the fat loss phase and now we transition you to your maintenance calories, you're going to see this kind of weird stabilization of your scale weight. So that's just all kind of noise, in my opinion, right. So there's that. But from there, biggest thing I'm looking for is just not seeing any trends in a short amount of time, to me as maintenance, right. And so what I mean by that is if we're consistently seeing, when we look at your average weight for the week and we see it trending either up or down, that you're in either a surplus or a small deficit, and then from there it's like, well, you know, if we're finding that, hey, you're feeling good, your body composition is really changing, maybe we can kind of continue on that trend, no-transcript plus or minus, and then again, over time, maybe it is drifting in.

Jeff Hoehn: 23:57

So just for example, um, my, my last fat loss phase ended in uh 20, the end of 2023 ish, like October ish timeframe. I was one 55, spent the next couple of months purposely gaining a little bit of weight, you know, letting things kind of stabilize a little bit, uh, and then from there I gained up to about one 62 and then really over the last like 60 ish weeks. You know it's been between one 63 and one 66 and it's kind of slowly trended up that way. Now somebody could be like you know it's been between 163 and 166 and it's kind of slowly trended up that way. Now somebody could be like, well, dude, you're in a small surplus, but really it, to me it's. It's maintained, really over time, right, so we're talking maintenance is not going to be this exact number of like oh hey, you're 166.6. Now, you're going to stay there every single time you go in. Right, you may see it trend one way or the other, just a little bit, but it's those short-term trends that we just don't want to see there.

Philip Pape: 24:45

This is a very important point, Jeff, I think for people, because if you're thinking of maintenance as literally an exact number all the time, you could be setting yourself up for failure because you could be dipping into deficits. And I don't know about you. When I think body recomp, I rarely think of it as a very tiny deficit, Like. To me that's kind of inefficient, right, Because your body will adapt and keep you at maintenance, but then now you're not eating as much as you could, so you're just never quite fully recovered and you're not really losing fat either. So is what you're saying is maybe the best, maybe one of the best or efficient approach is to kind of be a little bit on top, like almost have that upward drift, because three to six pounds in a year or two, it really is nothing. And and and frankly, if you're going to build muscle and that's a denser tissue, like you said earlier, you're probably going to want to have a little extra weight anyway. Is that? Is that where the thinking is?

Jeff Hoehn: 25:35

Yeah, pretty much too Right, Like artificially low maintenance, like this artificially low maintenance calories, where their their body's adapted to that and now you know, they don't feel as good, right, their body's just not thriving at that point. So what I suggest is at that point, hey, you're going to increase your calories a little bit and you may see your weight again kind of stabilize a little bit, but you're feeling good. And then you know, again, we're not necessarily trying to push weight up, but if it turns up a little bit over say a three, six, 12 month span, as long as you're feeling good, body composition still looks good. You know, based on all the things that we're tracking, performance is good. I'm not, I'm not concerned about your weight, not like coming up, you know, a couple of pounds, right? So again somebody could argue of like, oh, hey, that's not maintenance, then that's a, that's still technically. You're not trying to push scale weight up every single time you weigh in or over multiple weeks, right? For?

Philip Pape: 26:37

sure, especially when the goal is body recomp. The goal isn't to be at maintenance, that's just a route to get there right.

Jeff Hoehn: 26:44

Really, at the end of the day, what we're trying to do here is we're just trying to fuel your body enough, okay, to make sure that you're giving it the micronutrients it needs. Um, you know, when we're at maintenance, everything just flows much better, right? When you're giving your body enough fuel, uh in in in that process, right? So, again, libido is going to be in the best uh position. Um, there, uh, again, you're going to feel your best here, uh, in this right, bio, your, your uh blood work and everything should be in a good spot. As long as, again, as long as we are continuing to do all these things outside of, like, like the sleep stress, solid nutrition, um, training, right.

Jeff Hoehn: 27:19

I always tell people, just because your scale weights, if your scale weight isn't trending down and you want it to, but you're doing all those things, you're going to see a different body composition over time, um, by by doing those things, right.

Jeff Hoehn: 27:38

So I always try to frame it as that. And again, our body needs this, this period of time, to be around these, these calories, and my whole thing on this is if somebody, let's say somebody, they they do this fat loss, they do muscle gain, but they still have some body fat they need to lose. This is the perfect position for you to be for, say, six, nine months out of the year, because you're putting your body in the best position to to feel good where it's at, you're continuing to build your habits. Um, and you know, that beats somebody who still has body fat to lose and they're. They're losing body fat, but then they try and go into a large surplus and gain weight. Um, over time, right, but again, not to confuse people, it's okay If you see your weight come up a little bit during that period of time. The key is to just not try to push it continuously going up, right, that's where people gain body fat and that's where I think people get themselves stuck long-term in that process.

Philip Pape: 28:19

For sure, yeah, unless you're doing it on purpose, right, like I just gained 15, 17 pounds and it's like, and I got to pay for it by fat loss, dieting the other way. But so just very specific tip for folks then, if they're working with a coach who gives them a target, or they're using a tracking app and they have a target, that where they think their maintenance calories are at this point, um, do you recommend slightly overshooting on a daily basis? Is there a, like, a mental strategy you recommend to make sure you're in the right spot?

Jeff Hoehn: 28:44

Yeah, this again, I hate to say this, but it's going to depend on the client, right, like again, if they are super, like, if they're a little bit on the leaner side, they really want to maximize muscle growth, I'm going to say, hey, it's okay If you go a little bit over, right?

Jeff Hoehn: 28:57

If someone is maybe a little bit more, um, uh, I don't know the word I'm kind of looking for here they, they, they really want to be careful with gaining body fat mentally. You know I can just tell, right, but we're going to pair that with their biofeedback and everything like that, and I want to, I want to see how they're feeling there and then obviously again continuing to monitor their, uh, their body composition, because that's going to, to me, that's going to be the the biggest indicator, because I think where you want to be careful with is people are very good at under reporting their, their caloric intake, right. So this is where it comes into like, okay, in theory, in theory, in a perfect world, maybe we do kind of have them push slightly above what their quote, unquote, maintenance calories are, whatever, whatever that is for that person. But in practice, this is where, like you kind of, I like to rely on like, okay, here's what I've seen. I know that people tend to underestimate their caloric intake. Let's, maybe you can be a little bit lower than that, right.

Philip Pape: 29:52

No, no, I agree. Like different yeah, Different people have different mental framing around targets and, and you know, like some people want to hit the target right on Cause they're kind of robotic about it, like you know, I love hitting my targets Others always have to be in one direction or else they feel like they fail every day. Not that we want to have them in that mental state, but it depends. Like you said, it depends. So, um, we, we covered a lot of the go ahead.

Jeff Hoehn: 30:15

Well, I was just gonna say, hopefully that gives somebody an idea of like, hey, where you know you're kind of at, that gives you a better idea of where you should, should kind of focus on. And then again, looking at your trends, where's that trending at over time, if you're slightly seeing your body weight trend down, someone who pushes it a little bit higher, um as well to there.

Philip Pape: 30:32

So this is why I like to talk to guys like you, jeff, because we all have slightly nuanced takes on this. Like I would probably fall in the trap on my podcast of saying just always go over a little bit if you're trying to be a maintenance, cause I've seen too many people diet under. But then I recall the clients who need to be careful because they're they're trying to avoid gaining too much. So again, whatever resonates with you, you got to go with that. Is there any last tip or pitfall that we didn't cover related to body recomp at maintenance you want listeners to know about.

Jeff Hoehn: 31:02

Yep. So, again, like I said, I just think people tend to overly focus on, hey, surplus, gaining weight, losing weight, when we need to focus on the training stimulus that we're sending, because that, ultimately, is going to be the most important. People overlooked that just because you're training doesn't necessarily mean you're doing that in the most efficient way. There again, nutrition obviously not only calories and macros, but like quality of food that you're bringing in, making sure you get enough protein. And then the couple that I see people commonly overlook are going to be their lifestyle. They're again setting up their environment right, whether that, again, that's your relationships, that's your environment in terms of your work, what you, you know, what you're around all the time.

Jeff Hoehn: 31:39

Sleep is a huge one as well, too, and not only, hey, just get eight hours of sleep, but sleep quality, like making sure we're setting ourselves up for good sleep, and you can kind of put in your circadian health and circadian rhythm into that.

Jeff Hoehn: 31:49

And then and then stress management, right, and stress management being not only, oh, hey, I had a stressful day at work, but again thinking about all the stress that we're putting on our body, uh, and thinking about it from that standpoint and balancing that out to where. Hey, you know we want to have a good balance of parasympathetic, sympathetic inputs and making sure we're balancing that out and we're not letting it get too far on, say, the sympathetic side of things, right? So, again, that's going to look different for everybody what that is, but figuring out what you're doing to your body, that's adding stress, and trying to bring that down, those are going to be things I think people often overlook and can make the world of a difference and really allow you to get more out of every calorie that you put into your body. Um, it's probably the best way I could. I could put that.

Philip Pape: 32:28

Yeah, it's a great way to put it because smart, efficient, you know doing it the right way. Otherwise you're kind of wasting time, um, and you've got some really good content on this. I know you do these workshops occasionally, these free workshops on body recomp, that kind of go through the big pillars. So if you guys are interested in learning more, definitely reach out to jeff. And if you enjoyed this conversation where we talked about body recomp at maintenance, um, as I mentioned earlier, we recorded a companion episode right now in Jeff's feed the mind muscle connection. Go follow the show, download it, listen to it. That's why we're keeping these a little bit shorter.

Philip Pape: 33:00

Today, where I interviewed Jeff about, or no, where he interviews me, I get confused about using, um, what we're calling a near maintenance approach. So that's more. When you want to step the gas, step on the gas pedal, go maybe a little more aggressive, but still get body recomp, as opposed to necessarily going all out in one direction, and we're going to get deep into that there. So click the link in the show notes or go search the mind muscle connection on your favorite podcast app. Check it out. And Jeff, thanks, as always, man, for collaborating and coming on the show.

Jeff Hoehn: 33:30

Yep, this is super fun dude.