The Hidden Triggers Making You Overeat Without Realizing It (Sarah Krieger) | Ep 303

Get the other part of this conversation on Sarah's podcast "Don't Call Me Skinny" to hear Philip discussing the data/systems side of emotional eating

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Ever find yourself demolishing a pint of ice cream after a stressful day even though you weren't physically hungry?

Your problem isn't lack of willpower – it's invisible emotional triggers hijacking your eating decisions without your conscious awareness.

Today, Sarah Krieger of the "Don't Call Me Skinny" podcast reveals the psychological side of emotional eating while sharing practical tips to build a healthier relationship with food.

This is one part of a special two-part collaboration. Don't miss the companion episode on Sarah's podcast where Philip covers the data-driven systems approach to conquering emotional eating!

Main Takeaways:

• Emotional eating isn't about willpower but about hidden psychological triggers

• Childhood experiences often shape our emotional relationship with food

• The language we use about food reveals our deeper relationship with eating

• Creating awareness through pausing before eating can interrupt autopilot behaviors

• Sitting with uncomfortable emotions rather than eating to suppress them is key

Timestamps:

0:02 - Understanding emotional eating and triggers
7:24 - The first step to take
10:19 - Language and reframing around food
14:14 - "Clean" vs. flexible eating
17:26 - The "pause" method
22:11 - The power of tracking
24:49 - Addressing deeper emotional issues
32:08 - Data/systems-based approach

Get the other part of this conversation on Sarah's podcast "Don't Call Me Skinny" to hear Philip discussing the data/systems side of emotional eating

Why You Keep Reaching for Food and Don’t Know Why

Emotional eating isn’t about food. It’s about patterns. Triggers. Coping. And if you’ve ever found yourself elbow-deep in a bag of chips or polishing off the pint of ice cream on a stressful Tuesday night, you know exactly what I’m talking about.

We think it’s willpower. But what’s really happening is a complex web of emotional associations that started long before your last diet.

What Emotional Eating Actually Is

Emotional eating happens when you eat for a reason other than physical hunger. It’s reaching for food to feel better, to fill a gap, to distract from the hard stuff. But unlike physical hunger, emotional hunger comes on fast and usually targets specific foods—the ones tied to reward, comfort, or nostalgia.

And you’re not broken for doing it. The brain is wired to seek relief from discomfort, and food is one of the most accessible and socially acceptable ways to get that hit of dopamine.

The Hidden Triggers Behind Emotional Eating

Childhood Conditioning

Many of us were raised in environments where food was the solution to everything. You’re sad? Here’s a cookie. You did well in school? Ice cream time. Over time, your brain connected emotions with specific foods and responses.

Lack of Emotional Regulation

If you weren’t taught how to sit with uncomfortable feelings or navigate stress, food became the default coping mechanism. And it works—for about 5 minutes—until guilt and shame kick in.

Environmental Cues

Sometimes the trigger isn’t even internal. It’s walking past the pantry, seeing the chips, and unconsciously grabbing a handful. Your environment is a powerful cue, and we’re often unaware of how it shapes behavior.

Signs You’re Emotionally Eating

• You’re not physically hungry but feel compelled to eat

• You crave specific "comfort" foods

• You feel out of control when eating

• You experience guilt or shame afterward

Why Awareness is Step One

If you don’t know what you’re doing, you can’t change it. Emotional eating thrives in autopilot mode. Just like driving to work and not remembering the last five turns, food behaviors can feel automatic.

Start with awareness without judgment:

• Track when and why you eat

• Journal how you feel before and after meals

• Pause before eating and ask: Am I physically hungry?

Even just saying out loud "I’m doing the thing again" can break the spell and help you reclaim agency.

Dismantling the Moral Language Around Food

One of the biggest red flags of a poor relationship with food is language: "I can’t eat that, it’s bad." "I need to burn off that pizza." This kind of food morality creates guilt, which fuels more emotional eating. You start to see food as a threat rather than fuel.

The Oreo is just an Oreo. It’s not your therapist. It’s not your enemy. It’s just food.

Tools to Interrupt the Cycle

Use the Pause Method

When you feel the urge to snack, pause. Take a breath. Ask yourself what’s actually going on. This isn’t about restriction; it’s about awareness. Are you anxious? Bored? Lonely? Naming the emotion reduces its power.

Try the Apple Test

Would you eat an apple right now? If yes, you’re probably physically hungry. If not, it may be an emotional craving. You can still eat, but now you’re doing it with eyes open.

Pair Foods Strategically

Instead of banning snacks, try pairing. Apple + Oreo. Protein + treat. You get satisfaction and satiety without spiraling into a binge.

If It Goes Deeper, That’s Okay

Some of us carry decades of food trauma. Maybe food was used to control you. Or maybe it was the only stable thing in a chaotic household. That doesn’t get fixed overnight, and you don’t have to figure it all out alone.

Working with a coach or therapist can help unpack the deeper patterns and create strategies for lasting change. But just acknowledging the connection between emotions and eating is a massive step forward.

Final Thoughts

You’re not lazy. You’re not weak. You’re just stuck in a loop your brain thinks is helping. But with awareness, better language, and the right tools, you can build a healthier relationship with food—one where eating is a choice, not a compulsion.

Start small. Reflect. Pause. Pay attention to the language you use. Then take the next step.

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Transcript

Philip Pape: 0:02

If you've ever found yourself demolishing a pint of ice cream after a stressful day, even though you weren't physically hungry, your problem isn't lack of willpower. It's invisible emotional triggers hijacking your eating decisions without your conscious awareness. Today, we're exposing these hidden psychological forces and why they're sabotaging your nutrition goals, despite your best intentions. You'll discover the neurological reasons your brain connects food with emotional relief, how to decode your unique trigger patterns and some strategies to rewire these responses for good. If you're tired of that frustrating cycle of emotional eating followed by guilt and shame, today's conversation will give you the psychological toolkit you need to finally break free. Welcome to Wits and Weights, the show that helps you build a strong, healthy physique using evidence, engineering and efficiency.

Philip Pape: 1:04

I'm your host, philip Pape, and today I'm excited to bring you a special collaboration with Sarah Krieger, owner of Consistency Over Perfection Fitness and host of the Don't Call Me Skinny podcast. We're giving you twice the fun today, because we are dropping two conversations on our two shows, each tackling emotional eating from different angles. Today, sarah is diving into the, I'll say, very, very powerful, very critical psychological side of emotional eating. And then make sure and follow her podcast Again Don't Call Me Skinny, look it up. I'll include the link in the show notes and you're going to hear me discuss the data-driven system side of conquering emotional eating, and I'll again include the link in the show notes, as both episodes should have dropped today.

Philip Pape: 1:49

All right, so a little bit about Sarah. After losing 80 pounds, keeping it off for four years without fad diets, she now helps women through her, empowered by the Basics method, a really solid method, totally aligned with us in this show, so you definitely want to check that out and she focuses on a lot of mindset work and breaking free from diet culture. As a former educator turned coach, she's developed some powerful strategies, some tips to address the emotional side of eating, and today we're going to look at some of those hidden triggers that drive emotional eating and then give you some tips to build a healthier relationship with food. Sarah, thanks for doing this with me and welcome to the show.

Sarah Krieger: 2:28

Thank you, I'm so excited to be here. It's been a minute and I'm excited to tackle this one.

Philip Pape: 2:32

Let's do it. Let's do it. So, emotional eating it's a big hot topic and I don't know. I think one of the best places to start for folks is just in like the practical problems that you see day to day when people come to you and they're like I'm hungry, I crave things, I overeat, I love the Ben and Jerry's ice cream, um, and we can get into topics like um, emotional hunger, you know physical versus emotional hunger signals and all that. But just let's take a take it from the beginning. You know what? What is, what is the issue?

Sarah Krieger: 3:03

Yeah. So I think there's it's a cult, like a culmination. I think that, um, you know my story really is what drove me to be a coach and help women. And even in the very beginning I was very like here's your macros, here are your, you know, here's your training program. Like why are you not turning in a check-in? Like what's wrong with you? I say that in quotation marks Like I thought you wanted to lose weight and it wasn't really until I started coaching other people where I realized like this is a much bigger issue or problem.

Sarah Krieger: 3:34

The emotional side of this, tackling the feelings, tackling okay, well, why am I having all of these things? Why can I not stop at one Oreo? Why do I have to eat the whole bag? Why do I wake up at 2am with sour cream and you know, sour cream and potato chips all over my chest and I blacked out and I don't know what happened, like how does this? Like how did I get here?

Sarah Krieger: 3:55

And so I feel like this emotional, this emotional side I like to refer as like fixing the food relationship and just having a better relationship I think all comes down to an awareness piece. I think a lot of people just aren't aware, they're not educated around food, educated around emotions, how to emotionally regulate themselves, and I think that that's kind of like the deep part of this where it's this it can get ugly and it can get really um, I don't want to say it can get very like self-judgy, like what's wrong with me? Why can't I get fixed? I there's, why can so and so do this, but I can't seem. Why can she have cake and not eat the whole cake? But I can't do that right. So then it turns very internal and I think that this is a big piece that we are completely missing the mark on.

Philip Pape: 4:50

Yeah, there's, and there's a lot of comparison. Like you said, there's a lot of frustration. I mean people, root cause, which would you agree that you know everybody's different, Like some people can process through some mild emotional eating, potentially with just some strategies, Others it's like let's go crack open your childhood trauma here. Like what do you agree? There's this maybe spectrum going on?

Sarah Krieger: 5:21

Oh, absolutely, I think that you know, especially it depends. I truly do feel like this stems that you know, especially it depends. I truly do feel like the stems from you know your childhood. I feel like not everybody has always had a weight issue. A weight issue was always my story. Like I knew in kindergarten I was the big girl, I was bigger than all the other girls. Like that was my story. That's what I knew.

Sarah Krieger: 5:40

Some women come into this.

Sarah Krieger: 5:42

Maybe you know postpartum that I see that are like this hasn't been an issue until you know my adult life.

Sarah Krieger: 5:50

I had never had this issue growing up and I really truly feel like a lot of the women that come to me on the bigger, I would say the more difficult end of that spectrum, where it's that this is very deep rooted hiding in closets eating Doritos you know the parents buying, you know food, but they weren't allowed quote unquote, allowed to eat that food, those kinds of things.

Sarah Krieger: 6:13

Or just growing up in a home where food was always that right. Like an Oreo is always going to be an Oreo, it's never not going to be an Oreo, it's never going to trick you or anything. So it's like, almost like it's creating that safe place with the food. It's like okay, no matter what I do with this Oreo, it's going to be an Oreo and it's going to be delicious and it's going to make me feel better in this moment, and so that's what I'm going to turn to. So I definitely think there's a spectrum of women that I see where it's just like hey, we have to get really deep on, like what's going on? Versus like okay, this has been an issue for this long. Like here's some methods. Let's try these first and then go from there and see what happens.

Philip Pape: 6:49

Yeah, you know, I've I've seen that, I've seen that spectrum and it really depends on where the coach is coming from. That's why I like how we're we're covering this from different angles today so people understand that you know everyone's different. Um, you mentioned awareness. I really love that because we want to define that. I think today, to me, awareness could be to someone listening, I'm tracking my food, or it could be I'm identifying my triggers, or it could be I'm journaling my hunger. What do you define as awareness? Is it all those things, or where does it start?

Sarah Krieger: 7:24

all those things and every again. I think one thing about, like coaching and people, is realizing. Like everybody's in a different place, I've had people come to me where they've already tracked all their macros before they know exactly how to use a scale, and I have other people who are like that is so I've tracked coins, but I've never tracked macros. I don't know what I'm doing here, so I think that it's all. It's all. This whole thing is very individualized, so sometimes awareness is my clients just taking photos in a food log. Hey, let's start here. Where are you at? Oh, hey, let's just start with.

Sarah Krieger: 7:52

I call it the basic plate method. So everything I do is about the basics. So just learning how to build a basic plate. It is not. This does not have to be your you know five star gourmet French meal. This doesn't have to be this. It can be literally just like let's understand and define what is the protein and make sure we're getting protein at every single meal, right? So I think that awareness can be. It can be that kind of tracking. It can also be like why am I wanting food right now? Like what is it about food right now? Like I'm feeling stressed right now. Am I actually hungry for food or am I just wanting this? Because this makes me feel good in this moment and I think I need it right? That's also awareness. So I think it just like meeting the individual and the client where they are, because no one, no like, no two people, no five people, no 10 people that I've ever worked with ever start in the same place, ever.

Philip Pape: 8:44

Yeah, and so as far as where you are, then I mean I like your method and your framework. I love frameworks. You know, you have the basics and all that. If we were to talk about a framework for the emotional eating cycle or the chain of events, right, there's a trigger potentially somewhere, there's cravings in there, there's indulgences, there's guilt and shame, there's you even alert alluded to feeling safe, like that Oreo. That consistent Oreo helps you feel safe, which is a could be a very powerful concept when you explore it. So what kind of framework do you like if that makes sense, or how can people really understand it, who are listening to figure out where they are in the cycle or how you would take them through that?

Sarah Krieger: 9:22

Yeah, I think that you know, I I listened to a lot of language. I listened to the language that people use. So, um, if somebody were to come to me, or if you use language such as like, oh, I can't eat this, it's bad, or language like that, I can't eat that, I'm on a diet, right To me this is kind of like language of somebody who has a poor relationship with food. They probably use food to cope or emotionally, um like make, make them feel better, so cope, um those kinds of things right. So, if you're using specific language, that's where I'm going to be like, okay, we need to start by educating. Like food is not moral, it's not good or bad, we give it the moral value based off of what society has told us, based off of what we think oh, I ate all these Oreos. And then the scale went up. But we're not addressing the actual problem, which isn't the Oreos. Actually, the Oreos were there to help. I use Oreos because I love Oreos.

Sarah Krieger: 10:19

Hey, I don't disagree, dipped in some milk. I know People yeah, people dog on them so much, but I absolutely love them. But it could like insert your vice. It could be pizza, french fries, it doesn't matter. And so it's like understanding like the Oreos aren't actually the problem. It's why we are going to the Oreos, why we can't stop with the Oreos. So for somebody that's using language such as, again, this is bad food or I don't eat that. It's bad, you know it's.

Sarah Krieger: 10:49

I even just recently, I'm like, going through these conversations that I've had with people like you know, even language such as, like you know, trying to work off the food that they've eaten in the gym oh, I need to burn all these calories, right, that to me is language. And I'm like, okay, you're in this category, right. But if we understand that, it's like, okay, I, I know that I can have hashtag balance, and I use that word very faringly or very kind of yes, kind of sarcastic Cause it's like hashtag balance. It's like, well, there's not. I don't know what that really is for people. But so if you're coming to me with that kind of language where it's like, well, I know, I can have an Oreo, but my problem is X, y Z. Like I know that I can eat cake with my kid on at a birthday party, but that cake then leads me into well, then I have cake, and then I have this, and then I have that.

Sarah Krieger: 11:38

Ok, well, you might be in a little bit of a different category or a different place, right? Or it's just like I know what I'm supposed to do, I just don't do it. Right. Again, language is like language is everything. Ok, but there's a reason, ok. So if you know what you're supposed to be doing and you know that you need to be eating fruits and vegetables, but it just doesn't seem to happen, is that actually an emotional issue or is that like a capacity space? Like it's just I'm so busy I don't know how to plan appropriately. Like, is it more of an emotional issue or is it more of like a technical, almost issue versus that? So it becomes a little bit. It just kind of depends and I language for me is like huge listening to what the client is telling me. That's kind of how I decide, like, hmm, I think that we need to start here first.

Philip Pape: 12:23

Yeah, I love that. I don't know if that's a framework, but no, no, it is. It's actually crystal clear. I mean, I got at least two major takeaways here that I think the listener can can just on their own, like a self audit is is thinking about how they speak. Um, you mentioned, you know, the moral judgment on food, or even morally labeling yourself in the context of food as really powerful statements. I would even kind of infer from what you said really anything that's that's negative.

Philip Pape: 12:51

Um, to generalize, it could possibly be a reframing opportunity, even if it's the truth. Do you know what I mean? Like, even if you're stating a fact, but in a negative lens. I'm a very positive optimism bias type person and what you're suggesting is that, like if you're a coach working with someone, you don't just jump into here's your macros, go follow it. It's like, talk to me, talk to me, what's happening, what are you trying to accomplish here? You know, hopefully you have a good intake process and then you can say, okay, I'm hearing some things you're saying and when you check in with me, um, let's, let's try reframing it this way. I love that.

Philip Pape: 13:24

Um, where was I going to go with the second thing you mentioned. It's totally escaping me right now, but you know how that goes. We'll come back to it. I do It'll. It'll hit you at a different moment. It will, it's right. Oh, I know what it was. So what are your thoughts on? Um? So I've I've got a lot of experts that come on my show. I know you talk to people on yours and occasionally I'll get the person who's like. I'm aligned 90, 95% with them. But there's this piece about clean eating, or like judgment of like the ultimate place to get to is no processed foods. The ultimate place to get to is like you're clean. And there's this little bit of judgment even for people who obviously have gotten their goals they're fit, they're lifting, they feel great, like everything's in check and, yes, they have those Oreos, like they've gotten to a healthy mental state and they're eating Oreos. What are your thoughts on that in the industry?

Sarah Krieger: 14:14

Well, my personal thoughts are I don't believe in clean eating unless you're putting your food in a dishwasher or scrubbing it like I think that's what we reference as clean eating. Now I do believe in uh, how I, how I frame it is like, yes, there are more nutritious foods than others, like that we can't state that, like an apple is quote unquote worse than an Oreo. We know that's not true. Right, you're getting nutrients and all sorts of things and the the amount of just fullness that you're going to feel from an apple versus an Oreo, like there's distinguishable differences, but sometimes the Oreo satisfies a need or a desire that you want to have and it doesn't make it bad. So, for me personally, I'm kind of under the guise of like the majority of times, whatever that means for you personally. Yes, you should be eating whole foods that are nutrient dense, that make you feel good, that don't drag you down, that don't make you groggy and tired and bloat and blah, blah, blah, that don't drag you down, that don't make you groggy and tired and bloat and blah, blah, blah, and either super constipated or pooping. All of it Like, yes, like that to me is optimal. But also part of optimal is living right, which also means that maybe you do have. You know, like, tonight I'm going to be super honest. Right Tonight we're going out for my brother-in-law's birthday, okay, so am I going to have an alcoholic drink? Probably right. Do I drink alcoholic drinks every day of my life? No, I'm not a person to tell somebody not to do something you're not allowed to have. Don't eat this.

Sarah Krieger: 15:51

The goal is to get there on their own, like, if they choose, then you know, I've had clients that drink, honestly, you know, 10 to 14 drinks in a week, maybe sometimes even more, and I'm like, whoa, right, like, let's, let's talk about how this impacts our. Let's talk about how this impacts our um, um, our results that we're trying to get Right, um, it's no different than a client that comes to me, though, and has 700 calories of, you know, peanut butter, m&ms, or you know, chocolate, milk and all this stuff and like, but their lunch was 200 calories, but their snack side was 500, right, like, how can we like? This isn't necessarily, you're not bad for doing this, but how can we do it a little bit more so that it gets to where you want to go? Right, let's increase those meal sizes and let's decrease what we have, because you're not going to want those snacks. I'm a big believer in that part the bigger the meal, the less the snacks.

Sarah Krieger: 16:46

So for me it's like just trying to get a client to get there on their own. So I'm not necessarily like a you're not allowed kind of coach. Right, you can have M&Ms, you can have Oreos, you can have an alcoholic drink. But like you also need to take responsibility and own how that is going to impact and then understand like, well, the scale didn't go down this week. You know, on average I maintained or my sleep was kind of trashy, or now I drink too much in my digestion. You know I've sat on the toilet all day. Like, okay, well, that's what happens when we do those things. And now we understand how that impacts something and how can we change it a little bit differently for the next time.

Philip Pape: 17:26

Yeah, and that is back to your first comment about awareness. That's closing the loop. Right, that is closing the loop. People are walking through their day in a state of chaos and uncertainty, a lack of clarity, shoveling food in their mouth, not realizing why they're doing it and also how it interacts with how they feel and everything else. Right, or you know, like definitely the zealots in the certain diet spaces will say well, I feel great on XYZ. Well, have you tried the other alternative, the more flexible alternative, and linked it to your performance, your feedback, your digestion, et cetera? Flexible alternative and linked it to your performance, your feedback, your digestion, et cetera. Um, yeah, I just.

Philip Pape: 18:02

I asked that question because I think sometimes people put on a pedestal elite athletes or physique competitors or whoever might have these somewhat extreme approaches and even though it's kind of quote unquote working and they started through that process that we're trying to take them through, they end up at their own form of an extreme. That isn't necessarily where we want to be. So back to emotional eating. Then you mentioned triggers. You mentioned safety and things like that. Is there something you'd like the listener to know, to be aware of the triggers or or documenting those Cause. That is the awareness when it comes to this, this piece.

Sarah Krieger: 18:35

Yeah, I mean, I think this is a process. This is, I think, the first thing that somebody has to understand that this is not changing tomorrow. You didn't get here in a day and those behaviors that you do have I mean, we live on autopilot what 95% of our day. So once we start forming these habits and these things are just part of who we are, it's going to take an actual like stopping point, a wall. You're going to have to go. Okay, I've hit this wall. I have to. Okay, stop, pause. I have to stop for a second, right, and that takes a minute to get to.

Sarah Krieger: 19:08

Sometimes it's easier, you know, depending on the client, it can be easier for some than others. But what I like to do is first start just, you know, saying out loud, or just having the client they could write it down, right. What we want to do is start bringing awareness without judgment. I think that that's the bigger key to this. It's not about like, well, I thought about having this thing, but then I went and had it anyway. Okay, that doesn't necessarily mean it's a bad thing, because we were at least at least able to be aware before we did the thing right. So then it's a different move from that element. Right, but the very first thing I have people do is just take a breath, take a pause for a second, the moment this thought comes into your brain, or even maybe you don't even realize the thought. But now you're reaching into the refrigerator, or now you're reaching into your pantry and you're going oh, wait a minute. Or you're opening it up and you're like, oh, wait a minute. Right. It's like making just a pause and going okay, I'm doing this thing right now. And just like saying it okay, I'm doing this thing, okay, I'm getting, I'm going to eat this thing. Right. It's not about like being aware.

Sarah Krieger: 20:18

Like I said, the majority of us are not aware. We, we drive places. We don't even did I just stop at that stop sign, like I don't even know how I got, like we're just and that's scary because we're driving and I've had those moments Like I'm like how did I get here? I have no idea where. Or you're on autopilot and you always go one way or one direction and then you need to go a different way, but you turn the way that you always go.

Sarah Krieger: 20:43

It's a very similar concept, so For me it's like having them pause. They could document in a journal they could document in the food log. I actually had somebody do group coaching and every time she ate she put down why she was eating, like okay, breakfast, this is what I had, this is why I'm eating this. That was her choice, that was something that she wanted, because she can go back then and see like why am I eating what I am and what do I need to do to kind of move away from it? Eating what I am and what do I need to do to kind of move away from it. So I think just even just like breaking up that brain pattern of like just doing it versus pausing before we do it. So like pause method, that's very common.

Sarah Krieger: 21:21

I always talk about the apple method, like if you want the Oreo, eat the apple first and if you're still hungry, then go ahead and have that. So I think there's like lots of different ways to to document what we're doing. I talk a lot about food pairing for people. So like again, like having the apple with the Oreo, like this is cool, let's do it together. That's another way to become a little bit more aware. But I really just feel like in the very beginning, like for somebody that's really struggling with, and again, this is language that they use. Typically. I don't eat a lot during the day. I'm barely eating anything, the the. The reality is we're we're eating a lot more than what we think we are.

Philip Pape: 22:00

We're just not aware that we're eating the what we are, and so stopping that brain pattern and probably not satisfied with what we're eating, so it feels like we're not eating right.

Sarah Krieger: 22:11

Correct. Oh'm still hungry. I couldn't eat that much. Oh, probably.

Philip Pape: 22:15

So, speaking of pause, I want to pause there because people should sit on this and I resonate really hard with this. I was thinking of an example through Toastmasters Toastmasters, a public speaking organization 10 years ago. When I started doing that, I had lots of ums and ahs. And I had lots of ums and ahs and I'll tell you, podcasting works that out of you too, but I had lots of ums and ahs and one of the roles in a Toastmasters meeting is to pay attention to those. And another thing you're encouraged to do is video yourself, and as soon as you do that, like immediately, you cringe, right. We have an emotional reaction to ourselves. It'd be kind of like if you had a camera in your kitchen. As I was thinking, as you said this, for your midnight snacks, you had a camera just watching you the whole time and you watched back your security footage of yourself and you're like oh, interesting, like here are my behaviors. So the point is it does work, and I think a lot of people are not even taking that first step. It's not that hard. I mean, sarah, what you're telling us is not that hard. It's got to be done. And then, once you do it, who knows what you discover it's crazy and we're going to talk about data and systems and like, really it's all aligned, like that's what you're saying is the same thing. Um, we may just come at it from slightly different starting points.

Philip Pape: 23:17

And you also mentioned how, like the apple and the Oreo or heck you know, controlling your environment and having the bowl of apples you keep saying that keeps seeing the apples. I really want an apple right now. I had an orange for lunch. It was so good, so I'm good on my fruit for a little while, but anyway, um, I'm just, I'm just kind of rambling because I think it's really awesome that people understand they can pause, they can document in some way, whatever way works for them, they can recognize, and that leads to behavior change. Measuring leads to behavior change. Um, what about? What about the deeper stuff? What about when you have issues in the past, past experiences that shape that emotional relationship, traumas? We kind of touched on that, but some people are thinking, geez, it's deeper than what you're saying.

Sarah Krieger: 23:57

Yeah, and I think that that's what a lot of people you know. The admittance of that, I think, is very difficult. I come from a home where we were Italian. We scooped carbs with carbs, you know. We put that pasta right up on that bread and go to town.

Philip Pape: 24:14

That's great.

Sarah Krieger: 24:15

Yeah, you know where. We had big family dinners. So there's a lot of different ways that food can be embedded in the emotions, right? Also, being Italian, we eat food for every single motion that exists You're happy, you're excited, you're sad, you're depressed, it doesn't even matter. There's a reason always to be eating and it's always tied to something that either makes you feel really good or really bad, and then then boom, insert. That's the solve your problem. I've grandma said it would so clearly you know. So there's that piece of it, but I do think that.

Sarah Krieger: 24:49

So, speaking from my own like I'll just speak from my own personal opinion, or take on this experience, which is I always was made fun of, specifically by siblings, specifically by, I think that's that's about it. And when I, in my childhood it was, it was a lot of my siblings as I got older, I always had this weight issue, as I said, and then I got married and in this marriage it was a lot of cheating that took place and unfortunately, I used as why I had always used was food to cope with that element of me. So even when I have moments that I'm removed from this marriage by almost 10 years, 12 years at this point, I think actually, so I'm removed by this marriage. But anytime I have a thought from the past or like this feeling, felt a lot like that feeling, did I go back and it kind of like brings this visceral emotional body response right. Hands might get clammy, heart might start to race a little bit, like those kinds of things, and the first thing that I wanna do, or used to do, was I would used to just go fuel it. I would just go oh, this will make me feel better. The ice I love ice cream. Ice cream's gonna make me feel better. Taco Bell is gonna make me feel better. Pizza is gonna make me feel better. Eating out of this bag of chips is going to make me feel better. And again, by the time I didn't realize it, you know I'm 250 pounds and what just happened to me, you know what happened.

Sarah Krieger: 26:22

And so understanding, unfortunately, I don't feel like that. We allow ourselves to just sit with the emotions. We try to fix ourselves, we try to cover them, we try to move on from them as fast as possible, because they're awful and they feel terrible and that's the reality. So it's a matter of how do I sit in this and just let myself feel this and go. This is uncomfortable, but it's okay, and nothing is nothing is going to fix this. Nothing's going to change me. Eating the pizza doesn't actually fix the problem. It doesn't change the feeling. It's not going to make my heart rate slow down this exact moment right, but how do I just sit here and let this be for a minute and that? We don't like that. We want to try to fix ourselves as soon as we can, so we just go for the thing that we think is going to make us go. Everything's better until the next time. And it happens again and again, and again.

Philip Pape: 27:19

So how do people do that? Because that I totally agree. Like there's so many paradigms of of watching the emotions float by and the river of the mindfulness practices of maybe the pattern interrupt you already mentioned, which is maybe another tool to you're about to eat, you stop. Maybe you think about the emotions that you're recognizing, like. What are your thoughts on that?

Sarah Krieger: 27:40

I wish I had an answer that it wasn't. It depends, but unfortunately in this, what we do, it always is going to depend on the person. I'll say this the majority of women that I have worked with have deep emotional childhood trauma and I am not a trauma specialist, right, I'm not here to help fix people. What I am here to do is help guide them into understanding why these habits are happening. Understanding why these habits are happening and, on the flip side, if they need to go, get that additional support outside of me so that they can work through those things like I don't work through things with people like that on that level, right, but we talk about what these habits are, why we might be feeling this way, those kinds of things.

Sarah Krieger: 28:25

I'm really, really particular about staying in my scope of practice, but what I will say is this having a coach, having a person, one that can relate, that can understand, that can just say you make sense, this is okay and there's a reason why it's happening. Sometimes, give that client enough space to go just breathe for a second, because all of their life my life included until I figured this out, I didn't know that that was okay. I didn't realize, like, what I was doing was actually keeping me from doing who knows what I don't even know, right, I mean we could go to the deep end and go to drugs or alcohol or who knows and people do that, right, they do those same things for coping. So I feel like we don't know enough that it's okay, like these things are keeping me safe, right.

Sarah Krieger: 29:15

I always talk about the previous version of myself, like I wouldn't be who I am today without her fucking up and fighting like hell for me, right, like I would not be, I would not be here doing the thing. So what she did for me the last you know, 32 years prior of my life, she kept me going, she kept my furnace burning, she kept, she kept me alive, she kept me all those things so that I could figure this out and do what I needed to do today. So I wish I had a better answer of, like how somebody would go about this. But I think that if you're struggling with this, you need to find a coach, a therapist, somebody that can help ground you a little bit and help get you to see, like this is, this is okay, like you are not broken, you're not, you don't need to be fixed, but you just need to give yourself some space to be and that's okay.

Philip Pape: 30:06

And I hope, if they're listening to the show and hearing your soothing voice, sarah, that they will understand that this is the first step, like just hearing that it's possible that you can get there, that there's support and that also your identity continues to evolve. Your identity, your, sarah, as well as the person listening's identity, continue and mine as well forever, which is great. It's part of the human condition. That then depends on what level of support they're going to need. But if you haven't resolved the issue, it sounds like someone should at least start with maybe some of the tools here. I'm all for experimentation. Try it out today, try it out Logging awareness, things like that, and then you know, reach out, keep listening to our shows and then reach out for the kind of help you need. Is there anything about emotional eating? We didn't cover? It's a huge topic, it's a massive topic, I know, but just to kind of keep it concise today, is there one specific thing you wanted to mention that?

Philip Pape: 30:56

we haven't yet.

Sarah Krieger: 30:57

I mean that we haven't. I think you kind of touched on something right there that we haven't touched on and I'll just briefly talk about it. It's be open to try things. Be open to try things and they might not work for you. And I think, again, people want specifics. Right, we can. Here's your macros, here's your training program. Okay, here's the exact amount of time that you need to go work out and here's all the but really it's that's not what you actually need, and you might find that this particular method might not work for you. The pause method might not work for you. Okay, so what we got to find out what will, and be open to that. Like, hey, that wasn't for me and that's okay. Like this thing oh man, she talked about this thing on here and that she's crazy. Okay, but there is something out there, it's not the only thing, yep.

Sarah Krieger: 31:43

Correct. That can potentially work for you. So I think, being open, like everybody just wants the answer, just tell me what to do and I'll do it. Everybody just wants the answer. Just tell me what to do, and I'll do it.

Sarah Krieger: 31:57

Man, if it was that simple, we would be, everybody would just write the book about it and you would just serve everything Exactly and everybody would be looking like a hot snack, right, like that's the reality. So, and that's not the case, sadly. So we, we, we got a lot of work to do in our, in ourselves.

Philip Pape: 32:08

Love it, and the fact that you can do it and it will happen, and you just haven't found the right approach for you, is a great positive. That's the optimistic attitude that I absolutely love. All right, so I'm going to tell the listener here that, if you enjoyed this, this is just one half of a greater conversation about emotional eating on Sarah's podcast. Don't call me skinny, right, don't call me skinny, it's got. It's got a longer name behind it. Uh, that you'll see when you search it up. Don't call me skinny.

Philip Pape: 32:34

We are going to talk about data and systems and all that, but a lot of it's going to be aligned with what we're talking about here. So, stop now hit follow, cause this is almost the end of this episode. Anyway, go in your podcast app, find it, use the link in the show notes and you'll catch me talking on her show, and then you could also, uh, enter the world of Sarah, where you can hear about all her other frameworks and her other episodes, which are awesome. Um, she's got a little bit spiciness to her and a really great you know mindset about all of this that I love. So, sarah, thank you for coming on my show. Thank you so much you.

Metabolism Slowing Down with Age? What is REALLY Happening (and How to Reverse It) | Ep 302

Join Wits & Weights Physique University with 2 weeks FREE + your first challenge free

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Discover whether your metabolism actually slows down with age and what's really causing those body composition changes you're experiencing.

Learn 8 evidence-based strategies to maintain or even boost your metabolism regardless of age.

Main Takeaways:

• The surprising truth about metabolism and aging that contradicts what most fitness "experts" have been telling you

• The hidden factors that make it seem like your metabolism is slowing down (when something else entirely might be happening)

• Why strength training might be the single most powerful tool for maintaining metabolic health as you age

• The two foundational nutrition and movement strategies that can dramatically impact your metabolic rate with minimal effort

Episode Resources:

• Try MacroFactor for free with code WITSANDWEIGHTS

• 10 Reasons Muscle Burns Even More Calories Than You Think

Timestamps:

0:01 - The myth of metabolism and age
6:30 - What research reveals about metabolic rate
7:33 - The true culprits behind what feels like metabolic decline
11:41 - Strategy #1: Strength Training
14:35 - Strategy #2: Protein
15:57 - Strategy #3: NEAT
17:51 - Strategy #4: Sleep
20:05 - Strategy #5: Stress Management
22:31 - Strategy #6: "Cardio"
23:44 - Strategy #7: Nutrition Periodization
27:12 - Strategy #8: Meal Timing & Frequency
30:53 - The fascinating "secret function" of muscle tissue few people know about 

Why You’re Gaining Fat After 40 Even Though Your Metabolism Hasn’t Slowed

If you’ve ever said, “I can’t eat like I used to,” or blamed your weight gain on a slower metabolism after turning 30 or 40, this one's for you. We’re told that metabolism crashes as we age. But the research tells a different story.

Your metabolism isn’t automatically slowing down. The real problem? You’re losing muscle, moving less, and stacking up lifestyle habits that sabotage your energy balance. The good news is you can reverse all of that—and it doesn’t require a time machine or hormone replacement therapy.

Let’s break it down.

What Actually Is Metabolism?

Metabolism is your total daily energy expenditure (TDEE)—how many calories you burn every day. It’s made up of:

BMR (Basal Metabolic Rate)

This accounts for about 60–70% of your calorie burn and includes all the basic functions your body performs at rest—heartbeat, breathing, organ function.

TEF (Thermic Effect of Food)

Roughly 10% of your daily burn comes from digesting and processing food, and protein has the highest thermic effect.

EAT (Exercise Activity Thermogenesis)

Calories burned during structured exercise—only about 5% for most people.

NEAT (Non-Exercise Activity Thermogenesis)

All other movement throughout the day, like walking, cleaning, fidgeting. This is highly variable and can swing by 1,000+ calories depending on your lifestyle.

Metabolism Doesn’t Drop Until Your 60s

According to a massive study by Herman Pontzer using doubly-labeled water (the gold standard for measuring energy expenditure), your metabolic rate remains stable from your 20s through your 60s—when adjusted for fat-free mass. That’s the key.

So if your BMR isn’t crashing with age, why does it feel like you’re gaining fat just by looking at a donut?

The Real Reasons You Feel Sluggish and Soft as You Age

Muscle Loss (Sarcopenia)

Muscle is metabolically active tissue. The less you have, the lower your BMR. You start losing muscle in your 30s, and it accelerates after 50 unless you actively fight back.

Hormonal Shifts

Testosterone, growth hormone, and IGF-1 all decline with age. Estrogen drops in women. These changes affect your ability to build or preserve muscle and shift where your body stores fat (hello, belly).

Mitochondrial Decline

Your cells become less efficient at producing energy. Inflammation and oxidative stress compound the problem.

Increased Fat Mass

Fat tissue burns fewer calories than muscle and contributes to inflammation, especially the visceral kind that wraps around your organs.

Lower NEAT

As you age, you probably move less. NEAT is the silent killer of your calorie burn—when it drops, your energy expenditure plummets.

Poor Sleep and Chronic Stress

Sleep disturbances and cortisol overload wreak havoc on glucose metabolism, hunger signals, and fat storage—especially around the belly.

The 8 Strategies to Reverse “Age-Related” Metabolic Decline

1. Strength Training

Non-negotiable. Lift weights to rebuild muscle, boost mitochondrial function, support hormonal health, and kickstart the metabolic engine that is your muscle mass.

Start with 2–3 sessions a week, using compound lifts like squats, presses, and deadlifts. Learn proper form, progress over time, and yes—lift heavy.

2. High-Protein Nutrition

Protein preserves muscle and increases calorie burn through digestion. Aim for 0.7 to 1 gram of protein per pound of bodyweight per day. Bonus: You’ll feel fuller and eat less naturally.

3. Move More (Boost NEAT)

Walking, chores, standing, fidgeting—all of it matters. Don’t just hit the gym and sit the rest of the day. Aim for 7,000–10,000 steps, but even adding 2,000 per day can have a huge impact.

4. Improve Sleep Hygiene

Sleep is the foundation. Set consistent sleep/wake times, even on weekends. Blackout curtains, white noise, and a cool room help. Sleep isn’t a luxury—it’s required to support metabolism and recovery.

5. Manage Chronic Stress

You can’t eliminate stress, but you can change how you respond to it. Walks, journaling, downtime, even 15 minutes of doing nothing can bring cortisol back down and make your body feel safe to burn fat.

6. Do the Right Kind of Cardio

Walking is king. Sprints and play-based activity can help. But skip the chronic, moderate-intensity stuff unless you love it. Prioritize lifting and walking instead.

7. Spend Time Out of a Calorie Deficit

If you’re always dieting, you’re always breaking down. Spend time eating at maintenance or a slight surplus to build lean tissue and recover your hormones. Dieting is a temporary tool, not a lifestyle.

8. Eat Consistently

Meal timing and frequency should align with your current goal—fat loss, maintenance, or muscle gain. You don’t need to fast or graze all day. Just eat consistent meals with protein, fuel your workouts, and stick to your plan.

Your Muscle Is an Endocrine Organ

This one might blow your mind: muscle is more than meat. When you contract it, it releases myokines—signaling molecules that regulate metabolism, inflammation, and even brain health. It’s like your muscle is talking to the rest of your body, saying: “We’ve got work to do—stay sharp.”

This is why training alone—not even counting the gains—can improve insulin sensitivity, reduce chronic disease risk, and literally reverse cellular aging.

Final thoughts

Age isn’t the villain here. Inactivity is. Most of the metabolic changes we blame on aging are actually the result of muscle loss, lifestyle, and neglect.

The truth? You have more control than you think. And when you act, your metabolism responds.

Start lifting. Eat more protein. Move your body more during the day. You don’t have to do it all at once. Pick one thing today and go.

Your age is just a number. What you do with it? That’s what counts.

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Transcript

Philip Pape: 0:01

Your metabolism is slowing down. They say you can't eat like you did in your 20s. It's all downhill after 30. But what if I told you that most of what you heard about aging and metabolism is completely wrong. Aging does not inevitably doom you to weight gain and energy loss. The latest research shows that your basal metabolic rate stays remarkably stable from your 20s until your 60s. So why are so many people struggling with weight gain and energy loss as they age? Today, we are uncovering the real culprits behind what feels like a slowing metabolism, and they're not what you think. You'll discover the shocking truth about what's actually happening to your body as you age and the eight evidence-based strategies that can not only prevent metabolic decline but potentially reverse it.

Philip Pape: 0:56

Welcome to Wits and Weights, the show that helps you build a strong, healthy physique using evidence, engineering and efficiency. I'm your host, philip Pape, and today we're tackling one of the most persistent myths in the fitness world the idea that your metabolism inevitably slows down as you age. We've all heard it or said these things ourselves Just wait until you hit 30, 40, 50. Your metabolism just isn't what it used to be, and these are the kind of statements that seem to make intuitive sense when you notice changes in your body composition and your energy levels as you get older. But the thing is that research tells us a different set of facts and both are not mutually exclusive. In other words, you're both right, and when we look at the data, we discover that the relationship between aging and metabolism is more complex and it's more within our control than conventional wisdom or the industry might suggest. And today I want to break down what is happening. What is happening with your metabolism as you age, why you might be experiencing changes in your body composition getting fluffier, getting more belly fat, things like that and, most importantly, strategies, of course, strategies that you can implement, starting today, to maintain or even boost your metabolic rate, regardless of your age. And it is never too late, before we get into it, if you are right now feeling like you're struggling with your metabolism or your body composition or your energy, I've created something that can help Wits and Weights.

Philip Pape: 2:24

Physique University is my coaching community. It's where I've taken the best from my private clients, my one-on-one process, and put it into a group program that's more, let's say, affordable and accessible to a lot more folks. And we tackle these kinds of issues by giving you a roadmap, an onboarding plan to follow. It personalizes the nutrition and training based on the evidence. And right now I'm offering two weeks free so you can kick the tires. You get access to your first challenge free when you join and within those two weeks you could take full advantage of the program. No strings attached, nothing blocked off, including the customized nutrition plan, training programs designed for your goals, direct access to me, our community for support, for accountability. So much more. Just go to whitsonwastecom, slash physique, or click the link in the show notes to get started.

Philip Pape: 3:11

And I just want to get back into the topic now and let's talk about what's happening with metabolism as you age. First, we have to understand what we mean by metabolism. Your total daily energy expenditure, tdee, which we also call our metabolism, is the amount of calories you burn every day. It consists of several components and if you have to break it down, we typically use four components so you can understand what happens as we age. So the first component is your BMR, your basal metabolic rate. This is the energy your body needs just to maintain your basic physiological functions while you're just going about your business your heartbeat, your breathing, your cell turnover, your brain function, your organs and so on. For most people, this represents about two-thirds of your total daily calorie burn, so that's very important to understand. Next is the thermic effect of food, or TEF. That's the energy your body expends to digest, absorb and process the nutrients you consume. Tef typically accounts for about 10% of your total calorie burn. And then, finally, we have two pieces that are often lumped together but they're quite distinct that are related to your physical activity. One is eat and the other is neat. Eat is exercise activity thermogenesis that is, the calories you burn during planned exercise, which represents just 5% of your daily burn, and non-exercise activity thermogenesis, or neat, and that is all the spontaneous movements you make throughout the day fidgeting, doing chores, standing instead of sitting, and including walking in there, which, yes, can be deliberate, but it's distinct from eat. So if you combine those, you got the other rest chunk of your metabolism. Like I said, 5% for neat, maybe as much as 15 to 30, 40, 50% for neat, depending on how active you are.

Philip Pape: 5:00

The surprising thing that floors a lot of people and it surprised me when I learned this a few years ago is the research published by Herman Ponser. Now, his initial research was in 2021 in the journal Science, very well-respected journal. He later wrote a book called Burn and he showed based on doubly-labeled water, which is a very accurate way to determine someone's metabolism that when adjusted for fat-free mass put a pin in that because we're gonna come back to it it's actually a really important caveat. When adjusted for fat-free mass TDEE, your expenditure, your metabolism remains relatively stable from age 20 to age 60. It's only after age 60 that we start to see a noticeable decline in the metabolic rate, and this is important. I want to repeat that because it's so contrary to popular belief and you might not even believe it based on how your own body has responded with age. Your metabolism doesn't automatically slow down just because you're getting older, at least not until you're well into your 60s. But if that's true, why do so many people experience weight gain and difficulty losing fat as they get older, even though they're eating the same amount? And so the answer really lies in the physiological and lifestyle changes that often accompany aging. And remember what we said adjusted for fat-free mass, so this is going to be relevant here Fat-free mass includes muscle tissue, okay, so it is not simply aging that is causing your metabolism to slow.

Philip Pape: 6:30

Let's look at the actual mechanisms that lead to, I'll say, what feels like metabolic decline and in actuality, does reduce your metabolism, and it's tied to fat-free mass. The first and perhaps most significant factor is just that it is muscle loss. You are losing your fat-free mass. That is known as sarcopenia when you lose muscle. With age, this is a natural process. With aging Starting in your 30s, we begin to lose our muscle mass gradually, and then it accelerates after 50. And since muscle tissue burns a lot more calories, not only at rest versus fast tissue, but for many other reasons that having more muscle burns calories, which I discussed in a past episode, episode 291, 10 reasons muscle burns even more calories than you think. Losing muscle directly then impacts your BMR, your basal metabolic rate, and research shows the average person loses three to 8% of their muscle mass per decade after age 30. And then this rate accelerates after age 60.

Philip Pape: 7:33

And what's causing the muscle loss? A big part of it is hormonal changes. Right as we age, we have decreases in our anabolic hormones like testosterone, growth hormone, igf-1, which is insulin-like growth factor one, and these are all critical in building and maintaining muscle. So you don't have the same hormonal milieu, as they call it, as when you were in your 20s when you're just raging with hormones. Also, changes in thyroid hormone activity can reduce your metabolic rate, and declining sex hormones affect fat distribution and our body's ability to preserve muscle. Another reason is mitochondrial dysfunction.

Philip Pape: 8:09

Mitochondria, as you might have heard, are the powerhouses of your cells. They produce energy, and as we age they become less efficient. That results in a reduced cellular metabolic rate, and then that is compounded by increased oxidative stress, increased inflammation, and then that further impairs mitochondrial function. Then there's the increase in fat mass. So, unlike muscle, fat tissue is far less metabolically active, which means it contributes minimally to calorie burning. And then, as you age, there's usually a shift toward visceral fat accumulation. That's the dangerous fat that accumulates around your organs, and this type of fat releases inflammatory cytokines that can negatively impact metabolism throughout your body.

Philip Pape: 8:55

But perhaps the most significant factor that most people don't consider outside of muscle mass is the reduction in physical activity and neat, as we age we often become more sedentary, we sit more, we move less. Spontaneous activities like taking the stairs, walking to the store, fidgeting, tend to decrease, sometimes dramatically, and this reduction in daily movement can account for hundreds of fewer calories burned each day. And then there's sleep quality. Sleep quality declines with age. Many older adults have disrupted sleep patterns shorter sleep duration, poorer sleep quality. You know, life just gets in the way, right? We get busy, we have kids, we have family. Work gets more stressful. Poor sleep is not great. It impairs your glucose metabolism and elevates your stress hormones. It increases your cravings, increases belly fat storage. It reduces fat oxidation and all of those things functionally slow your metabolism.

Philip Pape: 9:53

And then finally, kind of related to this, but separate is chronic stress. Right, I could put this at the top of the list for some of you. Yes, it becomes more common because we have complexities as we get older. I sometimes daydream about those times when I was a child and I could just frolic outside in the summer in the grass on my bare feet without a care in the world. I look at my pets and I think the same thing. I'm like if only I could be a dog for a day. Now, in my 40s, I know what stress is like. We have elevated cortisol from this chronic stress. That encourages fat storage again, especially in the abdominal region. It also promotes muscle loss, insulin resistance. So it's a laundry list of things and it's not that your metabolism is just slowing down mysteriously. It's that all of these factors, many of which are lifestyle-related, are creating the conditions for metabolic decline, driven largely by the reduction of fat-free mass, the reduction in muscle, combined with all the stressors that I just talked about.

Philip Pape: 10:51

The good news is that, since many of these are within our control, we can take action to prevent or reverse this decline right now. No matter what age you are Obviously the younger the better, but you are where you are, so don't make any excuses. As you're listening to this show. If you are not active, if you are not strengthening, if you are not doing the things we're going to talk about in the next section, this is your wake-up call. This is your clarion call. This is the moment where you cross the Rubicon and you say I am finally going to prioritize myself so that I can live a long, healthy life. I have not just a lifespan, but a health span. I can fulfill. What? The deeper why is my purpose in life when it comes to my physical and mental being on this planet? What is that for you? And so I want to get to the part you've been waiting for here. What can you do about this?

Philip Pape: 11:41

And I've identified, for this episode, eight evidence-based strategies that can maintain or increase your metabolic rate, and you're going to have heard this many times on the podcast in one stage or one form or another. And these are principles. These are foundational, but I want to break them down for you. Strategy number one can you guess it? I'm going to give you a pause. Of course, strength training.

Philip Pape: 12:03

Without strength training, almost all of this goes out the window and you join the mass of the population who ends up in metabolic decline, frailty and diseases of aging. Inevitably it will happen. It will happen if you are not strength training. Sorry to say it, but I'm not sorry, because strength training is amazing. It can be fulfilling, enjoyable and you're gonna feel like a badass if you do it. Okay, resistance training will combat sarcopenia, because why You're building and you're preserving muscle mass I mean, it's as simple as that.

Philip Pape: 12:35

You're doing what the human body was evolved I don't want to say designed, evolved to do is push against loads in the real world, and this has so many benefits. It enhances the mitochondrial density and function we talked about in the real world, and this has so many benefits. It enhances the mitochondrial density and function we talked about at the cellular level. It boosts your metabolic efficiency. It increases your anabolic hormones, all the things right, not to mention making you functional and strong and capable and building muscle mass, just in general. And of course, side effect is you have a more athletic, lean physique. So it mitigates the age-related hormone declines like nothing else.

Philip Pape: 13:11

I mean, it is incredible how many people I've worked with and I will put myself in that category who are in their 40s or 50s or 60s have had mostly a sedentary lifestyle, start strength training and it is like they are a completely new, young, fit person. It is incredible, and the research is clear on this. Strength training is non-negotiable if you want to maintain your metabolism as you age. So how do you do this? Well, I would start where you're at, if you're not training at all. Two to three strength training sessions per week.

Philip Pape: 13:46

Focus on compound movements like the squat, the deadlift, the bench press, the overhead press. Eventually you've got pull-ups or chin-ups in there, maybe you have some rows in there and then eventually you can branch out into machines or bodybuilding work or whatever. But you're going to start simple with basic compound movements that engage multiple muscle groups for the most muscle mass efficiently. Full range of motion that gets you stronger. Don't be afraid to lift heavy. Progressive overload is key to stimulating growth and maintenance. Okay, I've talked about this on other episodes, I'm going to leave it at that. It is so important that you get into this. You start training, you learn how to do it properly. I mentioned earlier we have something called Physique University. We will teach you how to do that. We not only teach you how to do it and give you programs, we're gonna show you how to program for yourself so you have the skill to do it for the rest of your life. That's number one.

Philip Pape: 14:35

Strategy number two is to prioritize high-protein nutrition. Protein-rich diets support the muscle synthesis and they prevent what's called catabolism, which is the breakdown of muscle tissue. They prevent this. You don't need a massive amount of protein, but you probably need a lot more than you have today. Protein also has the highest thermic effect of food among the macros protein, fats, carbs. Protein will burn more calories being digested than carbs or fats, and so you get a lot of benefits with protein for muscle, for maintaining your diet, for feeling full, for being satisfied, for having delicious food and for adults over 40, research suggests you need even more protein, and we're talking again, not a massive amount.

Philip Pape: 15:19

I would start at 0.7 grams per pound and work your way up to as much as one gram per pound and you're fine. You'll never really have to go beyond that, except for special cases or advanced strategies. All right, spread it across your meals and you're golden. Of course, you should be tracking your food so you know how much protein you're getting. That's, that's a, that's a side method that supports getting enough protein. Um, if you want to do that accurately, precisely and easily, I would use macro factor. Link is always in my show notes at the bottom. Use my code witsandweights all one word to get two weeks free. But that will be a game changer for you. All right.

Philip Pape: 15:57

Strategy number three is to boost your NEAT, your non-exercise activity thermogenesis. This is also a game changer for people. I've had clients who are desk jockeys, lawyers, accountants, engineers. They might get 3,000 steps in a day because they're not thinking about it and they've gotten in a rut of just working all day. Going from three to even six or seven massively improves your health, your calorie burn, your longevity and lots of other things like blood sugar control, hormones, et cetera, insulin resistance the list goes on and again. Start where you're at Small, frequent movements throughout the day can, by themselves, significantly increase your calorie burn right.

Philip Pape: 16:33

Using a standing desk, taking short walks, pacing between meetings or during all meetings, if you can doing your chores, gardening right, not, you know doing things with your hands outside instead of hiring everybody to do stuff. Going up the stairs, parking farther from the store and that's just not even going for deliberate walks, which are the next level to this All these contribute meaningfully to your calorie expenditure. So what does that sound like? It sounds like not sitting on your butt all day. Sitting itself is its own mortality risk. So not sitting combined with regular movement throughout the day is going to mortality risk. So not sitting combined with regular movement throughout the day is gonna be huge. And we know that NEAT can vary by up to 2,000 calories per day between individuals of the same size based on their lifestyle right. And we're not talking 30,000 steps a day, we're talking about being fairly sedentary to being somewhat active. So this could potentially be the most impactful factor in the short term, especially for your daily energy expenditure, which will make then eating easier, getting more calories easier or being in a deficit easier when you're going for fat loss. In fact, we just did a mini challenge in the Physique University to help everybody increase their set count. So if you join, you can go grab that. We're done with the challenge. But the challenge document and guidance is there. It's a lot of fun, we gamify it and we do challenges every month. So another reason to join, all right.

Philip Pape: 17:51

Strategy number four is to improve your sleep hygiene. Hygiene just a nice fancy word for all the aspects of your sleep ritual, your routine. To improve the quality of the sleep, yes, we want to have sufficient duration, sufficient hours of sleep. Like you don't want to be so deprived that you're just exhausted and, whatever you do, it's not going to matter. We're talking five to six hours of sleep is really that threshold where you start to get deprived. But if you, if you're over, say, six and a half, and you're aiming for that, seven to nine hours, you know nine, nine is almost nobody I've worked with, other than retired people, are going to get nine hours of sleep. Let's just admit it. Okay, that's fine. Raise your hand, you know who you are. Um, the vast majority of us are going to get maybe seven or eight, and that's fine, as long as you focus on quality, because the quality is what really impacts the hormonal function and your thyroid, your metabolic health, your cravings, your, your belly fat.

Philip Pape: 18:42

And along with that comes consistency. If you, the number one hack I have for you, if you want to call it that, is going to sleep and waking up at the same time. Even if you only get six hours of sleep, I would rather you first get a consistent six hours of sleep, at the same sleep and wake times, even on the weekend, than try to get an extra hours of sleep if that's not, let's say, accessible or sustainable for you. So consistency is actually the biggest game changer for people. Then there's the environment. You know the dark, quiet, cool environment.

Philip Pape: 19:16

Sleep mask I'm a big fan of a sleep mask. I like the pressure that it puts on your eyes. It creates a sense of safety to your body, especially if you're a side sleeper and you're trying to sleep on your back. It's yet another way to create that pressure on top of you to keep you on your back. And we know that just poor sleep is a game changer in the negative sense, like it's a link to reduced insulin sensitivity, increased hunger hormones, decreased satiety hormones. I mean, you get, you could. You're starving and craving high sugar, high fat foods, when you don't get enough sleep. You know this, like if you're listening to this, you know this, and even if you're tracking your food, you're going to be hungry, hungrier, a lot hungrier. Even if you have the so-called discipline or willpower not to eat the extra calories, you're doing yourself a disservice by not getting enough sleep. So if you're gaining a bunch of weight, if you have metabolic dysfunction, if your metabolism is declining, sleep is a big part of that.

Philip Pape: 20:05

Strategy number five is managing chronic stress. Now, this one is a tough one for a lot of folks. Yet it could be the most important aspect, because a lot of us can't change the job we have or the family we have, and those things cause stress for us. And you've heard all the tricks you know mindfulness, meditation, deep breathing, yoga, doing things you enjoy, play, doing a hobby right, you've got to find what that thing is for you. For some people, it's just adding in some time for short breaks throughout the day and just not go, go, going forever throughout the day. It's finding time for yourself. Just like I encourage you to carve out time for training, I encourage you to carve out time for nothing, and by nothing I mean you've got no obligations or priorities in that time you've scheduled with yourself. It could be 15 minutes and you're just going to do something for yourself to lower your cortisol or make it more consistent, to improve your mental health, and this could be going for a walk, which kills two birds with one stone and increases your NEAT. It could be simply sitting down and enjoying a nice book, having a coffee, whatever that's for you to decide, but this is going to be massive when it comes to your metabolism. And if you've done all the other things, later this week I'm doing an episode with Adam Badger Shout out to him Great guy, fellow coach, and he's really an expert in chronic stress. And what I like about him is he doesn't approach it from reducing your stress or coping with your stress, but rather how do you change your perception of stress? Ah, so I want you to listen to that episode on friday or, if you're listening to this later. It's two episodes after this one Because we all face the same kinds of stressors, but we don't all react to them the same way.

Philip Pape: 21:55

Right? We don't all react with road rage when someone cuts us off in traffic. Some of us are able to just let it slide, understand that maybe that person's having a bad day and, honestly, do we care and just move on, and your reaction to that causes a physiological stress reaction or not? And there's a long list of things like that. So understanding how you respond to the stressors can be a game changer, even if you don't eliminate the stress or do a stress coping hack. All right, stress coping hack All right.

Philip Pape: 22:31

Strategy number six is, I'll say, cardiovascular exercise or training or activity. Now, I got to be careful here because many of you are doing too much cardio, but I think there's a place for activities like play sports, sprinting, that, especially when they're anaerobic, like sprinting that can enhance insulin sensitivity. They actually can contribute to your metabolism, your energy flux and your training and recovery. I know that most health organizations recommend 150 minutes of moderate intensity activity per week. That's what, two and a half hours but a lot of people misconstrue that to be like running. I do not subscribe to that. I think your strength training provides a lot of the purpose of that in terms of cardiovascular health and even conditioning. Yes, I think walking is the next thing that gets you to let's say, 90, 95% in this, in this uh bucket, and then the other five 10% could be the play, the sports, the sprinting. I would avoid medium to high intensity chronic type exercise like running, unless it's something you really enjoy. But that's a whole separate topic, because some people think they have to do it, some people are addicted to it. That's all a separate topic, but I would prioritize lifting, then walking and then a little bit of player sprinting. All right.

Philip Pape: 23:44

Strategy number seven is to actually spend time with your diet not in a deficit and potentially a lot of time in a slight surplus, to support the first thing we talked about, which is strength training. I really should have coupled them together, but I don't wanna do that because they're separate skills that have to be developed. One skill is strength training, which you could do regardless of your diet, and then the other is your diet itself, which will support your strength training and the building of the muscles. So I wanted to include this in here because, yes, in the short term, eating more food will increase your metabolism. That's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about fueling yourself and giving yourself the energy to support your hormones, to support your muscle building, to an extent where you develop metabolic health over the years and you're able to support muscle building much more efficiently. What do I mean? I mean not dieting all the time, or even that frequently. So when I work with clients, what we do is we learn how to control our physique development and control our diet in a structured way where we don't feel it's restrictive, but instead it's fuel, it's energy and we spend.

Philip Pape: 24:49

Most people end up, after they've gone through the first year or two of this fat loss with understanding how to build muscle as well will start getting into yearly cycles where they might be dieting as little as, say, six, six weeks and, as the most, the maximum you would be dieting on a regular basis is maybe three months at the most. Okay, in a 12-month period. So what does that leave you? Well, that leaves you with at least nine months of not dieting. Now, that doesn't mean you have to be in a calorie surplus in those nine months building muscle, but it does mean you're not dieting. I, however, would encourage people to spend a decent amount of time in a calorie surplus early on, as they're doing this for the first time.

Philip Pape: 25:30

As a noob, you know, a novice, late novice, intermediate for the first couple of years, maybe even three years, have two or three muscle building phases in there. Doing that will give your body the best chance to pack on all that lean tissue and set yourself up for the rest of your life. To just maintain that muscle right, you've got to go through the building process once at least once or twice, I should say. You could do it a few more times if you're really into this. You really want to add even more muscle. But even just doing it once or twice is going to be a game changer for you, because now you'll have that extra lean mass, you'll have a higher metabolism just walking around, you'll be able to carry a little more body weight, eat a little bit more food and again, that is a game changer. That is how you increase your metabolism, especially for women in peripost-menopause and men who have a decline in testosterone. It is going to counteract all the things you are concerned about that cause issues Because, for example, the drop in estrogen causes extra belly fat storage and a drop in muscle mass and an increase in body fat. Well, if you're strength training and you're eating, you're going to counteract that. You're going to build muscle, you're going to lose body fat and therefore you are going to thrive in peri and postmenopause, where everyone else is struggling and that's what you want, all right.

Philip Pape: 26:37

The last strategy, number eight, is also nutrition related. It's really your timing and your meal frequency. So the way I like to think of this is meal timing and frequency is more about consistency for your current phase. So what do I mean by that? You're going to be in a phase when do you have a goal? Your goal might be fat loss, it might be to maintain, it might be to build muscle, maybe you have an athletic pursuit, it doesn't matter. You're in a phase, right, and within that phase, you're going to have a certain amount of calories and macros and you'll come up with a decent meal structure for that, right.

Philip Pape: 27:12

I want to eat four times a day, mostly protein, and here are my feeding windows, or my feeding times the. The goal, then, is to be consistent with that. Consistent not just with quantity, but also with timing, right, we're not talking about fasting here. I'm not talking about anything fancy. Just like the sleep wake times, and sleep times should be consistent. Your eating should be as consistent as possible. Now, calories can fluctuate. They can fluctuate naturally and they can fluctuate intentionally, and I think the body is okay with that, as long as you do that consistently as well, like if you have three high days and four low days every week. If you just keep doing that like clockwork, your body will get used to it and we've seen that that can improve your body's I'll say safety that it feels and it will jack up your metabolism. In many cases it probably has to do with insulin sensitivity Again, mitochondrial function your cells.

Philip Pape: 28:03

It probably has to do with insulin sensitivity Again, mitochondrial function your cells, guys, your cells. You want to baby them and treat them like pets that you're trying to take care of, and by cell I mean just everything in your body. This includes your gut health, everything else, yes, and I don't want you to think that you have a lot of control directly over the cell, but the things you do, your cells are watching and listening and learning. They're reacting to it. Your whole metabolism is derived from how they function, and how they function is derived from what you're putting in your body, how much energy you're giving it and what you're doing.

Philip Pape: 28:34

It's lifestyle. All the diseases we're concerned about that are the biggest killers cardiovascular disease, diabetes, et cetera. All all you know all come from obesity and that all comes from lifestyle. Right, we have control over this. We may need help. Sometimes we need pharmacology totally understandable, that's fine, but it's in our control. That's the point at some level. So when you've got this I'll call it metabolic flexibility and improved efficiency and insulin sensitivity you're going to burn more fat, you're going to have better fat oxidation, you're going to have more easily preserved lean tissue and avoid catabolism.

Philip Pape: 29:08

Right, I hope I'm not throwing around too many technical terms here, but really this is what it comes down to. If you understand physiology, biology, anatomy, you understand that you are almost in total control of this, even though to get that level of control may require guardrails, structure learning and yes, for some people, pharmacology. It depends. I'm not ruling out lots of tools for the job. We just got to get the job done right. The effectiveness is going to vary from person to person because of genetics, but it's largely within your control. You just have to find out what works for your body and works for your lifestyle, and you don't have to implement all these eight strategies at once. Please don't do that.

Philip Pape: 29:45

Start with the foundational ones, the first three I talked about Strength training, protein intake, moving more. Just start there, and even there you could just do one at a time if you'd like, pick the one that's most accessible to you. Start doing it. If you want to increase your protein, what do you do first? Well, you got to track how much you eat and how much protein you eat. So you go, use macro factor to do that and log it, and then you'll know within a few weeks how much protein you actually have and how much you need. Boom, you have the gap. You work up to the gap, you get there. New habit Strength training. Well, you need to know how many days a week you're going to do it, what equipment you have access to, and then what program are you going to follow? Again, in Physique University, we make that super easy for you. Come join us, try it out for a couple weeks. Steal all my stuff in that first two weeks. Get your custom nutrition plan, cut and run. You could do that if you want. I hope you don't. I hope you stick around and see the value of it and want to actually learn and grow and develop your system.

Philip Pape: 30:35

It's kind of like going to college that's why we call it university, but in a good way. Well, not good. I liked college. Some people, you know, find it difficult. Um, I found it difficult and I enjoy it, but anyway. Uh, it's like going to nutrition and training school, um physique university. What's in weightscom slash physique. All right, the cool thing.

Philip Pape: 30:53

I wanted to give you one more fascinating little fact here. Okay, about metabolism and aging related to muscle, because we think of muscle as for strength and aesthetics, but your muscle is an endocrine organ. When you contract it during exercise, your muscle releases compounds called myokines that regulate your metabolism and your inflammation. And the myokines communicate with your fat tissue, with your liver, your brain, all your organs, and create a cascade of positive metabolic effects. And that is why training itself not just building muscle, but the training itself improves insulin sensitivity, your hormones, your fat oxidation, reduces inflammation, supports brain health.

Philip Pape: 31:34

There is a still understood, like less understood, aspect of building muscle that seems to burn more fat than not building muscle, independent of all these other factors that we think we know about already. And it's incredible. And this means when you engage in strength training, you're not just building muscle to be strong, to look better, you're activating a signaling system that's just sitting there ready to be used. That's going to improve your health at the cellular level. See, we're back to the mitochond improve your health at the cellular level. See, we're back to the mitochondria again, at the cellular level, and that's why I often tell my clients muscle is your metabolic currency, right, the more you have, the richer your metabolic health will be. And, unlike the inevitable decline in certain hormones with age that you would have if you didn't train, you're going to increase this signaling through strength training well into your 80s and 90s. Isn't that amazing? So when you pick up those weights, you're not just fighting against age-related muscle loss, you are reprogramming your metabolism at the molecular level period. That is the power that you have over your aging process, regardless of what conventional wisdom might suggest.

Philip Pape: 32:42

All right, so as we wrap up, remember aging does bring certain changes, right, that is biology. We can't avoid it. You're eventually going to die. We have to reconcile with that. But this narrative that your metabolism is doomed to slow down dramatically, it's just not supported by the science. I actually get a little bit annoyed and irked when I see memes about this stuff, just like I do when people make fun of how much they love cookies. You know, like it's this inevitable thing. I actually get annoyed by that. Now, I probably shouldn't, but it's kind of a defense mechanism people have because they're not doing the work, they're not focusing on their nutrition and they're not training. Maybe they don't know what to do. If so, if you know someone like that, give them a link to the podcast.

Philip Pape: 33:21

But what the research shows is that many of the metabolic changes we associate with aging are heavily influenced by the lifestyle factors within our control. So if you implement the strategies we discussed today, especially strain training, protein intake and increased movement, you can maintain or improve your metabolic health regardless of your age. Your age no longer becomes a factor. You're going to get younger as you get older. That's my philosophy. Right now, I'm 44 and I'm way younger physically than I was at 25. And you could be that too. I don't care what age you are right now.

Philip Pape: 33:52

Your metabolism does not have to decline just because you're getting older. Remember that small, consistent actions are going to compound over time. This is really about habits. This is a process that's going to take time. You're not going to overhaul your entire lifestyle overnight. So start by focusing on just one strategy today that seems most accessible to you and build from there. If you rush the process, if you're impatient, you're not going to make it and you're going to be relegated to the vast majority of people who do see the decline in their metabolism. But if you do these things, your metabolism will thank you. Your cells will thank you for decades. Right and again, maybe the most important takeaway is you have far more control over your metabolic not only your rate, but your fate than you may have believed, because your metabolism is not at the mercy of when you were born. It is responding to the signals you give it through your daily choices and habits.

Philip Pape: 34:43

All right, if you found value in today's episode, if you want personalized guidance on optimizing your metabolism, your training, your nutrition, your body composition, your health, just join us already. What are you waiting for? You're gonna regret not joining us at Wits and Weights Physique University I have a link in the show notes. Or go to winstonwatescom slash physique. You're going to get two weeks free to just try it out. Open kimono. I will even give you a demo if you'd like.

Philip Pape: 35:07

I want you to know what it's all about and what you're going to get, because I'm kind of sad when people come in and they are there for maybe a week and they don't really do anything and then they leave. I'm like, oh, you just missed out on something that is going to change your life. Yeah, there's a lot of bells and whistles in there, right? You get a customized nutrition plan from me based on your specific goals. You get workout programs. You get workout philosophy.

Philip Pape: 35:32

There are courses on physique development. There's the community, there's the coaching calls. We're going to have some live workshops. We're also going to have some guests on our lives and, of course, a supportive community. Just go to witsandweightscom, slash physique or click the link in the show notes. What are you waiting for? Let's create that sustainable approach that works with your physiology, so that you can combat metabolism with age. All right, until next time, keep using your wits lifting those weights and remember, when it comes to your metabolism, age is just a number, but what you do with your body every day is what truly counts. I'll talk to you next time here on the Wits and Weights Podcast.

How Strength Training Enhances Mental Toughness and Reduces Stress (Amanda Nigg) | Ep 301

Download my free Fat Loss & Muscle Gain Nutrition guide to setup your calories, macros, meal timing, and more to eliminate the guesswork and improve your physique and body composition.

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Feeling overwhelmed, burnt out, or stuck in your head? What if the key to unlocking your mental resilience isn’t talk therapy but lifting weights?

I talk to Amanda Nigg, aka the FarmFit Momma, about how strength training helped her recover after losing everything in a devastating fire. We discuss how doing hard physical things builds real psychological resilience, how strength training transforms your mindset, and why busy people need this more than anyone.

We dig into the connection between mental health and physical strength, the science behind why it works, and the practical ways to build your own strong body and mind even with a packed schedule.

Today, you’ll learn all about:

07:20 - Amanda’s story of how lifting saved her
13:07 - Which came first: lifting or resilience?
17:09 - The case for short, effective workouts
22:13 - Why lifting heavy won’t make you bulky
30:38 - The hormonal and mental benefits of lifting
34:12 - Physical progress vs. mental progress
35:48 - How busy moms find time to train
42:58 - The impact of discomfort in training
51:41 - Can lifting and nutrition reduce anxiety and depression?
56:42 - Reframing your internal dialogue to transform your life
59:01 - Rapid-fire questions
1:04:00 - Outro

Episode resources:

• Website: farmfitmomma.com

• Instagram: @farmfitmomma

• Facebook: @Farmfitmomma

• X: @farmfitmomma 

• Youtube: @farmfitmomma

• FarmFit Method Training: farmfitmomma.com/farmfit-method-fitness 
  

Lifting is Therapy

Most people start lifting to look better or get stronger. But for a lot of us, it's the psychological benefits that end up making the biggest difference. You might start for the aesthetics—but you stay because it keeps you sane.

When you train with intent—whether it's progressive overload, getting one more rep, or hitting a PR—it rewires your brain. It gives you a structured way to do something hard, on purpose, and come out the other side stronger. Lifting gives you reps of resilience. And when you get those in the gym, you’re better equipped to handle the stuff life throws at you outside it.

What lifting weights does to your stress levels and anxiety

We know that exercise releases endorphins, but strength training specifically has unique effects on your mental health. It’s not just a dopamine hit. It’s a reset. You’re putting yourself under load—literally—and teaching your nervous system how to respond to pressure.

It’s also one of the most consistent ways to reclaim agency. When life feels chaotic, just knowing your training session is on the calendar—and that you're showing up regardless—helps restore a sense of control. You don’t need a 90-minute workout to get that benefit. Even 20–30 minutes of intentional movement can change your entire mindset for the day.

It doesn’t need to be intense to be effective

There's a false belief that if you're not killing yourself in the gym, you're not doing enough. But most of the benefits—both mental and physical—come from structured, progressive work. A short, focused lifting session with clear movement patterns and progressive overload will almost always outperform random high-intensity circuits when it comes to long-term results and psychological carryover.

The connection between physical strength and emotional resilience

We tend to separate mental health and physical health like they’re two different things. But they’re not. They’re tightly connected. When you challenge yourself physically, you're also training your mind to tolerate discomfort, build discipline, and stay grounded.

This becomes obvious when you're facing something hard—stress, burnout, grief, uncertainty—and lifting becomes the one thing that helps you feel like yourself again. You stop viewing it as optional. It becomes non-negotiable. And that mental shift is where the real transformation starts.

Confidence isn’t the goal, it’s the byproduct

A lot of people chase confidence, but you can't shortcut your way to it. You build it through reps—doing the thing you said you'd do, especially when it’s hard. Over time, lifting creates proof. Proof that you’re capable. That you’re strong. That you’re consistent. That your body can do hard things. And that proof builds confidence that’s earned, not faked.

And no, lifting heavy won't make you bulky. It’ll make you smaller, tighter, and stronger. Especially for women, resistance training is one of the best tools for improving body composition and developing lean muscle—without the side effects you’re afraid of.

Making training sustainable in real life

If you're like most of my clients, you’ve got a million things going on—family, work, kids, zero margin for fluff. The solution isn’t trying to “find time” but to build systems that make lifting a part of your day. Early morning before the chaos starts, during a kid’s nap, or while dinner’s in the oven. It doesn’t matter when—what matters is that you’re consistent.

The myth that lifting has to be long or complicated is one of the biggest reasons people never start. But you don’t need a gym full of machines. You don’t even need a gym. You need a few basic movements, progressive overload, and the willingness to keep showing up.

Discomfort is part of the process

The first time you squat under a bar or try to lift something that feels heavy, it’s going to suck. But that discomfort is the point. When you lean into it, your threshold for what you can tolerate goes up. You get mentally tougher. You stop quitting on yourself. And eventually, it’s not something you force yourself to do—it’s something you crave.

It’s more than training—it’s how you live

You can’t always control what happens to you, but you can control how you respond. Lifting helps you practice that. Reps, sets, rest, repeat. The more consistent you are with your training, the more you start to realize you can handle anything.

This isn’t about motivation. It’s about momentum. You won’t always want to do it. But you’ll always be glad you did.

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Transcript

Philip Pape: 0:01

If anxiety, stress or life's overwhelming demands have been holding you back and you've been searching for a practical way to build true mental resilience, strength training might be just what you need. Today, I'm talking with Amanda Nigg, who rebuilt her life through lifting after losing everything in a devastating fire. You'll learn the science behind why pushing weights builds your psychological armor, practical ways that busy, hardworking people can use fitness to strengthen body and mind, and how physical resilience directly translates to mental toughness in everyday life. Today's episode will show you why lifting weights might be the most powerful therapeutic tool you're not using. Welcome to Wits and Weights, the show that helps you build a strong, healthy physique using evidence, engineering and efficiency.

Philip Pape: 0:52

I'm your host, philip Pape, and today I've invited on Amanda Nigg, aka the FarmFit Mama, to discuss the connection between strength training, which we all love, and mental toughness. Amanda is a certified personal trainer, nutrition coach, wellness expert, who founded FarmFit Training after rebuilding her life through fitness following a devastating house fire in 2020. She's a busy farm wife and mother. She lives on a 114-year-old South Dakota farm and brings that unique experience to helping hardworking people develop physical and mental toughness through structured training and nutrition. Today, you're going to learn how doing physically hard things like lifting weights build psychological resilience almost like nothing else. Some strategies to manage stress and anxiety through lifting and tips for building a routine that works for you to build that stronger body and mind. Amanda, welcome to the show.

Amanda Nigg: 1:45

I love it. I love it, thank you. Thanks for having me.

Philip Pape: 1:48

I'm excited to be here and we were chatting before we got on about. You know you can see a barn outside your door. You're in the agriculture industry. There's so much happening there and even though I'm not a city boy, I'm in Connecticut. We live on six acres ourselves with some trees. A lot of folks may or may not relate to that lifestyle. What I thought was cool about talking to you today is that kind of resilience and toughness that you might have from practical experience with the farming lifestyle, but also working with clients and what you've discovered through fitness. So, to kick things off, I just want to ask you what mental changes do happen when someone starts lifting weights.

Amanda Nigg: 2:30

Oh my gosh, there's so many. A lot of people don't understand the interconnection between mental health and physical health. You really can't look at one or the other when you're talking about physical fitness. Your mental health is going to be right there, it's going to be impacted, it's going to be changed just by working on yourself. And a lot of people think, oh, you know, taking that time for myself, it's more like a selfish endeavor and it really isn't, because you impact those around you in a positive manner by taking care of yourself. And the same token with mental health. Like you can't work on your mental health without tapping into your physical health.

Amanda Nigg: 3:07

And so I think the biggest thing, especially in my industry, is, you know, things are advancing as far as technology. Like they're coming out with self drive tractors, believe it or not. Like we don't have one on our farm, but man would, I love one. But the cool thing is, like you know, as technology advances, what's not advancing in my industry is health and physical health, and we're talking physical and mental health, and so it was one of those things where there's tons of amazing influencers. I hate that word, by the way influencer, I just hate it. I'm like, if you're passionate about something, why do we have to label it as influencers? But that's a whole balling.

Amanda Nigg: 3:50

But as far as agriculture goes, there's tons of people out there that are bridging that gap between consumer and producer, which I'm also doing, that as well, like I'm really debunking those myths. But what wasn't present in our industry is somebody standing up for physical and mental health, and that's really where I focus on. I really want to be able to bridge that gap when it comes to physical and mental health for my industry. And a lot of people don't realize like agriculture is your backbone of the world. We're not just talking like it's the world. Like without the food system, nobody would exist.

Amanda Nigg: 4:20

You know we have those hobby farms, everybody, and don't get me wrong, I have my own garden that I'd like to dabble in and think I'm an advanced farmer when it comes to my own garden, even though weeds take it over. But with that being said, you know, physical health and mental health is something that I'm super passionate about and I love to keep educating myself. Like I, just because I have the certifications doesn't mean I stop. Like I actually just purchased another certification off of NASM for sports nutrition, and so I'm starting to dabble into sports nutrition and youth as well, and so I'm always a student when it comes to learning and incorporating new practices that I can bring to the table.

Philip Pape: 5:00

Love it. Yeah, Sports nutrition Now you're talking my area. We definitely can chat about that. Yeah, no, no, Cool, it's it. That's awesome. I mean yeah, because it all works together. And the more you learn about each of these bits and get the education, the more you realize how it's all connected. It's all connected systemically, physiologically and then even with your mind and with the way we interact with our professions and our careers and other people. So what's interesting is you mentioned the ag industry, physical mental health. What that made me think of was so I'm in the engineering industry and in manufacturing for years. There were always safety issues, right, and the more like, even ergonomically, just having to bend over to do, you know, fasten something together on an assembly line could cause back issues, and over the years they've put in place, uh, more safeguards, you know, for physical health. Mental health is definitely something that the whole world hasn't really talked a lot about until the last maybe decade or two maximum. I don't know if you agree with that. That's what I've observed.

Amanda Nigg: 5:59

I wouldn't even say the last couple of years, yeah.

Philip Pape: 6:01

Yeah, no couple of years True.

Amanda Nigg: 6:03

Yeah, like no, mental health wasn't talked about a lot. It was more of a stigma of like, if you talked about it, like you were weak, is how people kind of viewed mental health. And then, ever since the C word I don't know if I should say it here, but ever since 2020, like, a lot more people are open about it and, I case in point, my whole story is about it, you know, and so it's a topic that is being brought out and talked about a lot more, which is really cool to see, because if you can talk about your mental health struggles, it actually shows how strong you are. It's not a weakness, it's a strength, and I think it's really cool how industries are starting to talk about it, and I would definitely say it's more prevalent in the last couple of years, believe it or not, in my opinion, and tell me more about that I would love to hear about in that industry, because we never talk about that industry on this show, so it's pretty cool.

Philip Pape: 6:56

What have they recognized and put in place? Because I'm sure there's some general lessons there for anybody.

Amanda Nigg: 7:01

Well, I mean in rural America, rural anywhere, and we're talking international as well like they're just, the services are very slim. It's not like I can go to a counselor, like I still have to drive 45 minutes to even a counselor, you know, and when I was going through my struggles in 2020, like so, to give a little bit background, yeah, please do tell me is, um, I actually graduated college as a radiation oncology therapist, so a medical degree. Like, I have that fixer personality, I love to fix things. And the reason I went into oncology is it was an industry that I really wanted to understand. We're talking like 14 years ago, I just put a date on myself. I feel old. Now I'm like 22. Come on, oh, I wish, let's say I look it now. But like 22, come on, oh I wish. Uh, let's say I look at.

Amanda Nigg: 7:50

But you know, even a long time ago, when I went into the oncology field, there was so much that people didn't understand in that industry and that's what really drove me to it, because I wanted to understand it and be that fixer solution. And so later in my adventures, I ended up selling door-to-door insurance because, like, they threw me in pediatric oncology and I'll be the first to tell you like, fresh out of college, I wasn't ready for that industry. That is like those people are saints that can stay in that industry. And so when I started selling insurance, I did door-to-door sales and I learned a lot about myself in that process because, like, door-to-door sales is the hardest type of sell that you will ever have to do. You have five seconds to make that first impression, and so I learned a lot in that at personally, but also the supplemental coverage that I sold. It was still that fixer type of solution where it would money directly to the person if they went through a catastrophic illness like cancer, heart or accidental, but in the same token, it allowed people to choose the quality care they want instead of the quality care they could afford. So I loved it.

Amanda Nigg: 8:51

I actually sold insurance for 11 years, believe it or not, which is insane to say, but in 2020, the day before the national pandemic, we just built our forever home. That was actually half a mile away from the farm and me and my husband poured our heart and soul Like he was the contractor for our house project everything and, as you probably can already guess, our house burned down. We lost everything. So, march 19th 2020, we lost our entire home. And then the next day was the official quotations here lockdown.

Amanda Nigg: 9:25

And so it was like not only was the world and you know, especially in the United States going through this lockdown of like nobody knew what was happening, you know, and we're all guessing like and it you know, there's tons of speculation soaring around Our family was homeless, like we had nowhere to go and and you couldn't even go to a grocery store. Like everything was shut down. And so, like I was super struggling, like I really started to struggle with my mental health, like I wasn't able to sell insurance anymore. I'm homeschooling my children. I'm social distancing, which I'm an extreme extrovert, like I love to be around people. And then, in addition to that, like we're homeless and we're trying to figure out our next steps on top of all this and it was a lot to take in Like I'll be the first to admit like I was very vocal about my mental health struggles, because it's just like I had the only solution that was available was a 1-800 number, which, again, that works for some people and I don't want to downplay that.

Amanda Nigg: 10:25

Like, if you're really struggling, yes, definitely call that, but for me, I viewed it as like a bandaid approach. It's like why would you cover a bullet wound with a bandaid? Because that you don't really. You're talking to a complete stranger, dumping your emotions out. And then what happens? When it happens again and you're struggling again, you're going to have to relive, open that bullet wound back up, get all that information back out and then try to work where you're going through in that moment.

Amanda Nigg: 10:51

And so, like for me, I really dove hard into my fitness journey. I started going to our junk pile. My husband would bring me random like junk pile tires like I'm covered in talking, covered in dirt, like this, these junk pile tires. Because like'm covered in talking, covered in dirt, like just these junk pile tires.

Amanda Nigg: 11:05

Cause, like my gym was in our home and he knew how much I loved, you know, taking that time for myself. And he understood the value that I did and how it would allow me, you know, to be able to give to our family, because it's a lot harder to pour from a half empty cup than a half full. And he understood like, hey, I need to take that time for myself. And so I started posting these random workouts online and I wasn't certified at the time and I remember the pivoting moment for me, the aha moment was in May of 2020 that I launched this plank challenge and it was nothing crazy, felt like it was some generic program I saw online and I kind of tweaked it a little bit and made it more universal and I launched it online for the month of May, which is Mental Health Awareness Month, and I had 800 plus people in agriculture across the world participate in this, Like I honestly don't know the number.

Amanda Nigg: 11:59

I mean, I was getting tagged left and right from people from Australia, uk, canada, united States and it really just opened my eyes like nobody's really tackling that physical and mental health component within this industry. And it was just. Like you know, I did a couple other challenges later that year, but it really lit my fire where I decided to go back to get me my personal training in nutrition. It was where I started and I officially opened the doors to FarmFit training February 5th of 2021. Because it was like you know, if nobody's going to do this, I want to be that change. I want to give individuals a solution to where they have a space. If they were like me, that wouldn't call that number. Yeah.

Philip Pape: 12:43

Yeah, you wanted to be that change and you did. That sounds like in less than a year, totally unexpected, and that's a rough story. Obviously, I'm sure you've told the story many times. That's probably therapeutic in and of itself, but what I want to know is there's some steps skipped there that the audience wants to know of. You said you did these workouts after the house burned down and that helped push you through it. That implies that you were already. You know cause you had a gym in your house. Yeah, would you say, cause. What's the chicken and egg here? Pun intended farm joke, I guess we do have chickens, by the way. What came first, chicken or egg? What came first? The lifting or the mental kind of resilience? You know what I'm saying? That's really the topic of today is how strongly did your existing routine and love for fitness push you through it versus it drove you to it? You know what I mean 100%.

Amanda Nigg: 13:37

I was that overweight mom, so I've always been physically active. I am a very strong competitor. Like, I grew up playing sports. I was the type of kid that was in every sport imaginable and I would excel in every single sport. Like, I have a very competitive drive to me and when I went into motherhood I'm five, one and a buck, 20, 120, 125. Like, I gained 60 pounds. My first pregnancy, like being pregnant, did a number on my body and I had two. My first pregnancy was an emergency C-section. My second one was a scheduled C-section. So, like it wasn't even like your typical normal pregnancy. It was rough and I'm thank God. I love my boys to death, but I'm officially done having kids.

Philip Pape: 14:24

Understandable.

Amanda Nigg: 14:26

But you know, like I was that mom that was uncomfortable in her own skin. I was that super insecure with who I was, and so for me I knew I had to get back to feeling comfortable in my own skin. And that looks different for everybody, like how you view yourself and and and they throw this word confidence out and first and foremost, a lot. There's two ways you can view confidence Like. You can view it as like cockiness. Some people have that cocky confidence. But another way to view confidence is believing in your own abilities and what you bring to the table. And for me I didn't have that. And so when I started working out, I actually started with a CrossFit program which I don't follow her anymore. She went all bougie. If you've heard of Christmas Abbott, she's a CrossFit person.

Philip Pape: 15:10

I'll just be honest. I kind of stay away from the CrossFit community these days, but okay.

Amanda Nigg: 15:16

That is a, that's a cult. Let's just say what it is.

Philip Pape: 15:19

I did it for eight years but yeah, I escaped. I escaped the cult.

Amanda Nigg: 15:26

Well, the CrossFit community appealed to me because it was just you see, all these bad-ass people and you're like.

Amanda Nigg: 15:29

I'm part of that, and so, um, when I, after my second pregnancy, I did do a couple of CrossFit programs and I loved it and and my husband saw the change in my personality, like in my motivation and just carrying myself, like how I carried myself every day, today it was like I had a purpose. And so I guess, back to your chicken and egg comment I had to start working out to tap into my mental health to be to where I am today, and so that's what happened in 2020. When I lost my gym is I knew I had to go back to the ground and get to back to the foundation of diving that time into myself so that I could be able to show up powerfully for my family, especially when we were going through so many unknowns in 2020.

Philip Pape: 16:16

Yeah, that's well said. I caught a few things there that were kind of the deeper part of why that was important to you, one being having a purpose, you said, and the other the confidence and showing up for yourself, time for yourself. There's a mindfulness component, especially when we're in the stressed world where we're just on the go, never dedicate. I mean, I get that as a business owner and you know a very packed schedule, my lifting four days a week. It just is going to happen Like matter. What it's going to happen, I mean, short of some emergency, and yet I probably wouldn't have a really dedicated self-time without that.

Philip Pape: 16:51

So, having said that, I want to understand the elements of training and exercise that are most beneficial, both in the evidence if I don't know how much up on all the evidence you are but also in practical experience, because sometimes I feel like people use exercise in general uh, stressful exercise as well, like CrossFit can be as maybe a scapegoat or an escape that doesn't actually reduce stress or anxiety or it doesn't actually, uh, build the confidence and the resilience right. It's almost like an endorphin or dopamine hit band-aid. What are your thoughts on that spectrum between that and something that's truly rejuvenatory? Yeah, that's a beautiful word, by the way, just made it, just came up out of my ass. I love it, I love it.

Amanda Nigg: 17:39

Well, first and foremost, people overcomplicate things let's just lay it out as it is and especially when it comes to fitness, they think they need to work out an hour to two hours a day and they're like, oh, I don't have time. The number one excuse, especially in my community, was time, and so I've done a ton of research. To answer your question, I've got 800 plus page scientific journals and I remember coming across this one scientific journal and it really hit home for me, and it took these two groups of people, 50-50. It took the first group. They had four movements. The second group had the exact same four movements, but the first group had only four rounds of these four movements and it was like a 15 to 25 minute workout. And then the second group had to. They didn't have a number, the rounds weren't given, they just had to go for time, which was 45 minutes to an hour. And what they'd noticed over the course of this three month trial period is the group that had the set time not only performed better but lost more fat, built more muscle and had more mental health clarity than the group that had to work the 45 minutes to an hour.

Amanda Nigg: 18:48

And the reason for this is progressive overload. A lot of people overcomplicate exercises where they think they have to do a ton of different movements to get a full body workout. And if you simplify that and that's what we do in FarFit trainings, we really specialize on that quick and effective methodology Like, hey, I'm going to give you a 15 to 25 minute workout but I'm going to humble your ass in that time, but then you get on with your day and so, like the biggest thing, especially out there in this industry and you can probably contest this is people make excuses because they're afraid of getting started, or they use time as an excuse, like I don't have the time to invest in myself right now because I don't want to make that time is what it boils down to.

Amanda Nigg: 19:34

And so it was one of those things where that scientific journal was super eyeopening to me, where it was just like, okay, if I'm going to create something, it's got to be quick and effective. We have to teach how to do progressive overload correctly, and we have to really educate people that you don't need a lot of equipment. You can use a tire or a tractor weight Like you don't have to have this big fancy gym, or if you have access to a gym, great. But I knew it had to be an at-home program where I could really take that excuse of time off the plate. And that's the same with nutrition. We really approach nutrition differently too, and so it's just like I really wanted to hone in on both of those and create something that was sustainable, that where individuals could show up for themselves and put in the work, but it could be a part of their everyday life.

Philip Pape: 20:25

You're using all the keywords that I love, amanda sustainable, time-efficient, progressive overload and this is really good. I want people listening or watching to get this message. Number one you said the biggest excuse is time. I was just talking to my daughters I think it was last night so every night we put in a bed, we have these. Somehow we're getting these deep conversations. They're only 10 and 12. They're actually turning 11 and 13.

Philip Pape: 20:49

But we were talking about how the speed of light is fixed and we were talking about relativity believe it or not, I know it's weird, we homeschool our kids too and we were talking about time as like it's fixed, right, I mean, it's not fixed.

Philip Pape: 21:01

If you're traveling near the speed of light, then it can kind of bend and stuff, but it's the only thing you can't change and what you're getting at is that that's the one you can make it as in, you can clear it from your schedule, right, but you can't like create more time, so that's that's important, to just acknowledge that. Like you can't change 24 hours, so it's up to you to change other things to fit within the 24 hours. But then the progressive overload as a way to be time efficient, simplify, reduce stress, humble yourself, like you said, I love that and effectively do something hard that I think pays off longer term in terms of the high you get from it. Let's just say, in which case, what I want to ask you, amanda, with this long diatribe, is what do you say to people who say, well, that's not hard enough, that's not intense enough, that doesn't like I, like my CrossFitter, I like my you know, big, intense, my, my Peloton type workouts? What do you say to those people?

Amanda Nigg: 21:54

Peloton is made for the masses, it's not made for yourself. So, first and foremost, any of those programs Beachbody, peloton they're made for the masses. They're not going to challenge you like a good program like per se, phillip or I put together. I promise you that. And secondly, workouts should humble you and you should hire a coach that can actually educate you on the process. Like, a lot of people don't understand progressive overload correctly, even fitness instructors out there, like fitness people, I've seen them explain it so wrong. And so, when you're doing progressive overload correctly, the first and foremost let's debunk this myth that gets thrown out there in the fitness space is lifting heavy weights will make you bulky, especially for females. That is such a false lie. I am a 5'1 and I'm 125 pounds. Trust me, I'm not bulky.

Philip Pape: 22:43

You guys need to check out her. You gave me like a photo to use for the cover art and you're like, it looks like you're in the jungle. I know it's like a farm thing, but there's like leaves and again, and I'm not, it's not a body image thing, but you can tell I say this all the time when a woman is like muscular and lean, like you have a fit, lean figure and I bet you weigh more than people think, right, Like, and you're being 5'1".

Amanda Nigg: 23:04

Like they see me and they're like, they don't like, especially when I'm wearing baggy clothes, like I'm petite, I'm 5'1", you know I'm fun size, and so when they see me they don't understand the strength that I have. And so, like, for example, I always your muscles Like it, like it cracks me up because like that I can come over and lift the heavy stuff and help him, like when we're fixing our combine or tractor. He knows I can do it. Um, but a lot of people underestimate my strength ability. And that's the thing too is like ladies here is going to make you leaner, tighter, smaller.

Amanda Nigg: 23:40

And a lot of women, when they join a program, what's the number one word? They always say Tone, I want to be toned. The only way you're going to get toned is if you pick up those weights. Do not shy away from that. And then you know again, male and female chemical makeup is a lot different. We're not the same genetic profile. So when a male picks up heavier weight, you know, and hits his protein numbers, he's going to look a lot different compared to a female. Yes, there's some females and male influencers out there that are taking that steroid and they look manly. Let's just like females that look manly. But if you're doing it correctly and incorporating progressive overload correctly, you're going to get leaner, smaller, tighter ladies and those men are going to see that progress that they're looking for. You know most men want that chest, the arms, the back, you know. And so you're going to see that progress a lot more. And the thing with progressive overload is it's got to be taught correctly and again, there's so many fitness influencers that do not teach it correctly, and so that's actually what one of the things I love covering with my clients and educating them on is like okay, this is how progressive overload looks like you want to start, you want to warm your body up before you work out, you want to hit your max, like a lot of people reverse. This, by the way, is you want to hit your max weight in the beginning and by the end. If you have to drop to maintain form, that's good, because you're hitting muscle failure earlier on instead of later in your workout. You don't want to hit muscle failure at the end of your workout.

Amanda Nigg: 25:15

And again back to that case study. That's what that case study talked about is a lot of that group that had the set rounds, those four rounds, in that 15 to 25 minute workout. Guess what? They pushed the weight because they knew they were only going to be doing it for 15 to 25 minutes, versus that group that worked out for 45 minutes to an hour. They're like gosh. We got to do this for the long haul. I'm not going to pick up heavier weights, so they probably didn't hit muscle failure until the end of the workout versus the beginning, and so there's a lot that happens with that, which I don't know how deep you want to go into this, but, like you know, you have to create those micro tears in your muscle and that's how you build and repair it, and obviously nutrition plays a huge component into that as well.

Philip Pape: 25:54

Yeah, for sure. I mean, I could definitely talk for hours about all the mechanisms underlying muscle building and strength. What I would love the listener to get from this, from you, is you know you said it's a hard, humbling thing. I always like to say, if you're lifting weight, weight's the right way. It'll never be easy, but life is going to be a lot easier because you're stronger like later on, you know when you do every day task.

Amanda Nigg: 26:20

you know like, think about it Like I dropped that nugget in there that my husband texts me saying he wants my muscles. You know, it's like that. It's the fact that my husband views me as an asset and knows that I can help him. I just love it. You know like you're independent.

Philip Pape: 26:36

You're not only independent, you contribute even more than independence. Like you know what I mean.

Amanda Nigg: 26:40

Like you can do those everyday tasks like do you imagine how, how much you squat and pick up during the day? Like how many squats people do? Or even walking, like people don't realize how much they use their muscles in a day, and if you're, if you use your muscles and again strengthen them, it makes those everyday motions a lot easier, um, a lot way, a lot easier to be able to handle. Where, like, there was this really strong commercial. Tell me if you saw this, though. This commercial was it like an 80 year old grandpa and he started lifting weights, and in this commercial it was a christmas commercial. He was lifting this weight and his neighbors were older people. They'd peek in and on him. He was out in his garage lifting this kettlebell, like just kept doing this kettlebell moment and, um, they kept talking about him. You know, like, why is he working out at 80 and stuff? Well, at the end, the reason why he was working out is he wanted to be able to lift his granddaughter, to put the star on the tree. Yeah, I've seen that one.

Amanda Nigg: 27:40

That's a good one, and you know the thing, the point of that one super powerful, first and foremost, but the huge point there is a lot of people are not going to understand the things that you do, and when you dive into a fitness journey, you might get flack and you might get people being like, oh, look at her, she's posting pictures of herself again on the internet. Or look at her, she's bragging about her meal that she ate today. You're not doing this for everybody else. You're doing it for yourself, but you're going to slowly impact those around you and you have to realize, like you're your longest commitment and checking in with yourself and being able to be like you know what. I don't want to be that 80-year-old sitting in a nursing home who's tied to a wheelchair. I want to be that 80 old freaking, busting out pull-ups and being that grandma that's super hands-on and so it's just that type of mental switch where something that I do with every single one of my clients is we do a wise statement. Have you ever done that before?

Philip Pape: 28:37

Yeah, or the five wise yeah.

Amanda Nigg: 28:39

Well, we don't do the five wise, we do a wise statement. So the wise statement is your deepest, darkest emotions you have about yourself. So before anybody can even start coaching with us, especially in my one-on-one coaching, is they have to create this wise statement. Sometimes it's superficial, you know. I want to look good, feel good. Or other times it's like my mom was obese. I don't want to be obese. I want to change that pattern for my family. I to be obese. I want to change that pattern for my family. I want to be an active, hands-on mom or dad, you know sometimes Be a role model for my kids.

Philip Pape: 29:06

Yeah, yeah, definitely.

Amanda Nigg: 29:12

Sometimes it gets super deep and that's when you know you're on the right path of creating your why statement. Because those why statements like motivations, fleeting, it's going to come and go, but when you tap back into that why statement, it's going to change as you go through your fitness journey, but it's going to be super powerful tool, not only physically but mentally, to drive you to be like you know what this is, why I'm showing up. I'm showing up for myself, because I want to be that active, hands-on mom. I want to be that mom where all those other moms are sitting there talking on the sideline and the boys are playing football and I'm right there and I'm totally that mom. So I have a nine-year-old and 11-year-old boy. I'm a boy mom and I am totally that mom.

Amanda Nigg: 29:47

Like they were playing football the other day and I was right in there playing tackle football with a bunch of 11-year-olds. You know why all these other parents were sitting on the sidelines and it's just like you know. I choose to have an active lifestyle because there's so many moments where I'm not going to have that with my kids as they get older and I'm not going to be the cool mom anymore and I don't. I want to take advantage of it as much as possible, and if tapping into myself for 20 minutes a day gets me to those goals and keeps me being able to be that hands-on mom, I'm going to do it.

Philip Pape: 30:20

Yeah, and that's the powerful thing here is that you have the deep why and now you have a process to get you there and the process itself isn't really that. I'm not going to say hard Again. It's hard to lift weights, but in a good way. But it doesn't have to be taking over your life and this stressful thing that you hate or don't look forward to, like a lot of workouts can be. And I can totally relate, right, because we have dogs, I have kids, we have chickens, they have hamsters and I love to just like get on the floor and crawl around and just whatever. You know, my, my girls are getting tall and bigger and then you know, my youngest especially, will still ask me to hold her and I'm like sure, brace Cause it's more of a deadlift. Now you're heavier, it's cool, you're bigger, but let's do to the lifting weights then, like a great example is.

Philip Pape: 31:05

You know, I see it all the time with clients. I'm sure you do too. This amazing thing that happens is transformation. That happens fairly early on. I mean it could be within the first few weeks, where you don't necessarily see muscle or have like lost many inches in your waist, but you're feeling more powerful and strong and like there's hormones that are just being triggered testosterone, igf-1, like all this fun stuff. Maybe tell us about the physiology, because then that leads to the mental piece, which is also physiological, not just like emotional per se. How does training affect your hormones, your stressors, that feeling of power, like we can get into all that? I know how passionate you are about this.

Amanda Nigg: 31:45

Well, I'm super passionate, but we're going to hit nutrition into that at some point as well. But you know, like lift more weight, first and foremost you release this amazing thing called endorphins and those are like our body's natural ability, it's like your happy pill and, first and foremost, a lot of people once you start to tap into it. That's why you see people working out years and years and years later because they love that. They love that adrenaline rush and that's one thing I love too in the morning when I work out, just that feeling of accomplishment that I get of, like I checked in for myself. This is a big deal, you know, and some days not my lifts are not the best, I'll be the first to tell you. Some days I'm like that was a shady workout, sorry.

Philip Pape: 32:28

I don't know if I should have said that it's all good. It's all good.

Amanda Nigg: 32:30

Like you know, and there's other days where I like I crush that and I into it. Not going too deep and keeping this in layman terms is your body is this amazing mechanism and, like a lot of people don't realize, like when you start to lift those weights, there's so much happening in your body and it becomes this addicting agent where you're like I want to check in the next day, I want to come back, you know, and sometimes that takes time. Like progress I think that you hit that right on the head is progress takes time and the biggest thing is it takes consistency. Don't expect to lose 20 pounds in the first month. First and foremost. If you did, I'd be able to crash diet or something.

Amanda Nigg: 33:20

We all diet culture and you're going to get all back because you're not establishing those habits. You have to create those habits and progress takes time and it's it's the more consistent you are with, like, lifting weights, like I do. Something called functional hybrid training is what I really specialize in and, again, it takes time and we really explain that to clients where it's like you know you're going to start to notice mental changes as you start to lift and show up for yourself way before you start to see the physical changes. And I think everybody needs to know that is like physical changes they will come and they will come differently for each people, like I had a client that went through 12 weeks and didn't really see a lot of physical changes in 12 weeks, believe it or not, but she saw major changes mentally.

Amanda Nigg: 34:08

I shit you not after 12 weeks, week four or um, it would have been 14, 14, week 14. It's like her body just went boom, started seeing the muscle definition. She started seeing the popping, her pants size was a lot smaller, she started seeing her abs and it was like her body just all of a sudden just flipped a script. And that's the cool thing too is like your body's unique and it's going to change when it needs to. But the biggest thing is you have to be consistent and you have to believe in the process and the journey, and a lot of people tend to tap out before the magic even happens.

Philip Pape: 34:42

Yeah, I totally know what you mean. Just today I was talking to a client. We've worked together a long time. She's going to go on on her own. That's usually what I want is for someone to fire me. But at the same time I'm like sad. And we look back at her data and there was a time early on where her scale weight basically stayed exactly the same and she dropped like four and a half percent body fat. But we looked at her check-ins back then and it was like all of these mental things. It was like, oh my gosh, I'm doing something I've never done before. Oh my goodness. And yeah, clothes are fitting better and whatnot. But it's this accomplishment win, win, win.

Philip Pape: 35:15

You know whether it is endorphins and dopamine and also, just seeing, you know the data as well. All of it comes together. Um, it's really empowering. And you're right, like men and women will respond differently. It'll be based on your nutrition, based on how you hold onto. Maybe fluid, if you're getting super like, strong and jacked quickly, that could actually cause you to gain weight, right, like, and you know, and kind of offset Right, and so and again, once they plateau, they're not doing the training right, because you should never plateau if you're doing it correctly, sure.

Philip Pape: 35:48

Yeah, absolutely so. Then you mentioned consistency several times and there's all these words that get thrown out Consistency, motivation, willpower, discipline Did I say discipline? And you also mentioned time and hardworking people who are super busy, and I can't imagine like farming, for example, always seemed to me like a very hard scrabble, tough, you know, kind of lifestyle when it comes to finding that time. So how do you do it all Like? How do you not make excuses when you know life's going to be chaotic, it's going to be busy? How do you prioritize that?

Amanda Nigg: 36:18

Well, for me personally are you talking clients? Because me personally, I just know that if I don't, for me to give to others and so I mentioned that earlier and I don't know if you caught that nugget is I mentioned the glass half full, half empty, thrown around a lot, like it's a lot harder to pour from a half empty cup than a half full, and that's super powerful, Like if you think about it, like when you have, when you show up for yourself, you have the ability to give to others because you checked in with yourself. And again, it's not being selfish, it's being, it's realizing if I don't check a little time, how am I able to give to my family? You know, my husband's super busy on our farm we're just gearing up for planting season. I have two boys that are super busy and ton of sports. They're very active, little men, busy and ton of sports. They're very active little men. And it's just like I know as a mother, like I can't give to them until I give to myself. And that doesn't mean I'm being selfish, it just means I want to be a good mother and I want to show them and lead by an example.

Amanda Nigg: 37:15

And so when people say they don't have the time, or come with those excuses like how do I juggle it all is I get up at 5 am. I'll be honest, I don't have to use alarm clock. My body just wakes up and my boys know it. On the weekends it seems like they love to wake up super early, and during the week it's a struggle to get them out the door to school, but on weekends they'll mosey up at 5. Like, sometimes they'll join me in my workout or other times they'll sit there and watch me and have a conversation while I'm working out, and I cherish those moments because I know I'm showing them how to take care of their body and I love, I love having my boys join me in the kitchen. Like they'll make snacks with me, they'll they'll pipe in and make dinners with me. I actually have a recipe I'm dropping tomorrow that my youngest made with me and it's just so cool to teach them and educate them how to feel their body, because I was one of those people that came from a mother that was always on the hamster whale diet culture. Like my mom right now is taking Ozempic, which don't get me started on that Not a fan, not a fan, but you know, like she's always looking for those quick fixes, and same with my sister, and I didn't want that. I wanted to show them like, hey, let's do this the correct way. Let me show you how to like be physically fit, but also let's dive into nutrition. Let me educate you about nutrition and feeling your body and how, what it does to your body. And it's such cool opportunities that I have with my children where I get to educate the way, and it's so cool because then I use those moments and I bring it to our community.

Amanda Nigg: 38:49

You know, in my space, farm fit training is like it's not just me having those moments, it's a ton of my clients. Like we have a community group chat in my app and I'll have pictures. Clients post pictures of them working out with their kids at 5 am. Or some of my farmers prefer to work out at the end of the day and they'll post it. Or I have have farmers attend. We do something called Farmcast once a month where I do like educational hour hour long educationals and they'll be in the tractor listening to me, in the tractor listening to me, you know, and it's just like we're a unique industry. But again, if your why is strong enough, uh, the rest. It will fit into your life exactly how it's, but it doesn't need to be complicated and it's super simple to say that, but it's, it takes work.

Philip Pape: 39:49

It takes work. Yeah, absolutely, it takes something getting over that initial hump and then, like you said, if it's a deep enough reason, you're doing it.

Amanda Nigg: 39:54

It's almost inevitable and then eventually you get to the point where you couldn't imagine not doing it.

Amanda Nigg: 39:59

You're doing a step challenge for my community and I wrote my boys in it. My son has an Apple Watch. He doesn't have a phone but he has an Apple Watch and he competes with me on steps like make it fun. You know, that's the biggest thing is like this should be something that you look forward to, you know and it is fun and something about checking in with yourself. And so I think a lot of people make it not fun and that's why they check out so early because they view it more as like a task I have to get done, instead of being like I get the opportunity to do this, like I can be able to move my body, I get to be able to feel my body, body and when you, when you view it that way, just the way you talk about it and your language around it, it's going to impact and it's going to switch your whole mental health side of things on how you view what you're doing for yourself.

Philip Pape: 40:51

Yeah, I agree, I just did squats today and I'll tell you, Amanda, that that is that's the one compound lift that is always been mentally hardest for me, right, Because it's just my I'll call it weakest of all the lifts. And I know I I'm not going to say I have to do it I know I want to do it because I'm progressing it and I have a training program and I it's been giving me great results. And so that leads me to to ask you this is that, while you can make things as fun as you can, there is an aspect of discomfort when we talk about progressive overload that you have to face, and how do people handle that initially and then they're effectively. That's part of training, your mind, isn't it? And that's part of the resilience that you get out of it. What are your thoughts on that piece of like, the actual hard part of a really heavy squat or deadlift?

Amanda Nigg: 41:37

Well, mine's pull-ups, by the way I hate them Okay.

Amanda Nigg: 41:40

You hate them, okay, okay I'm not a fan, but you, everybody has to start somewhere. You have to start somewhere. When I first started pull-ups like I love push-ups which is really weird like push-ups are my jam and burpees. I love push-up and burpees, but when you tell me I have to pull myself up on a bar, I struggle because it's just like it's a whole different beast for me myself. And so you have to be willing to get uncomfortable to grow. And if you're not willing to be uncomfortable to grow, you will never grow. And so when you get to certain things that you don't necessarily enjoy, just look at it as, like, I am growing. Here I have the opportunity to grow. Here it's going to get better. I'm eventually gonna start lifting heavier weights. I'm eventually going to start lifting heavier weight. I'm eventually like women.

Amanda Nigg: 42:25

A lot of women struggle with pushups, for example. It's just not their favorite thing. And again, you have to be willing to be uncomfortable to be able to grow. And so what I tell my ladies is your pushup might not look the best right now.

Amanda Nigg: 42:39

Watch the video, pay attention to the cues that I give you. Send me videos if you want me to look and critique your form, but you have to still show up for yourself and still put in the work, because anytime you want to grow as an individual, you have again. You have to be willing to do the uncomfortableness to get through that. And and I can relate that to like public speaking I never thought I would be on stages public speaking about physical and mental health for agriculture at like ag events not my cup of tea. But I know like the more I get on stage, the more I get uncomfortable, the more I can grow and become a good speaker, for example, and so like it's just anything in life. You don't even have to tie it to fitness or nutrition or anything Like it's just. If you're not willing to get uncomfortable, then there's not going to be an opportunity for growth.

Philip Pape: 43:28

A hundred percent and yeah, and if we could teach our kids that, that's even better. My oldest daughter, we have them go to something called gavel club, which is like an extension of Toastmasters for public speaking, cause you mentioned the nervousness of speaking, the nervousness of speaking, and my youngest loves it. My oldest is not a fan, mainly she doesn't like the group itself, but that's a different situation. But she will say the way she frames it, it's like this positive reframing. She's like I'm not really a fan, but I know it's good, I know it's helping me and it's like you know what I mean. It's like that discomfort of we're obviously not going to force her to do something. That's just terrible. But this thing is helping her grow and she acknowledges that and I think it's a strong skill to develop. And the younger you are, the better right. Otherwise, we get into habits of a lot of negative self-talk and thinking we can't do and quitting. Yes.

Amanda Nigg: 44:14

The only time you fail is when you quit yeah.

Philip Pape: 44:17

Yeah, if you don't make the attempt, you've quit. That's true. Yeah, my definition Business.

Amanda Nigg: 44:26

You know, like we're both entrepreneurs, we both have a fitness business, like there was times in my fitness business, oh my God. Like being an entrepreneur is a whole different beast in itself. But you know you have to work through that uncomfortableness and and realize like, hey, it's not going to get better If I just walk away and throw in the towel. Like I have to continue to show up for myself and that goes with the nutrition. Nutrition is a beast. A lot of people struggle when it comes to nutrition. Like the actual exercise side of things. People can start to get those habits and form them. But tying nutrition to exercise and tying to filling your body correctly, that's where a lot of people super struggle because again, we live in a society that is all about quick fixes.

Philip Pape: 45:06

Quick fixes yep, and it's confusing so much misinformation with all the micro stuff that's not important or doesn't work.

Amanda Nigg: 45:13

I don't know if you've heard of nutrition, but this will be interesting if we dive into this.

Philip Pape: 45:17

Oh, nutrition, oh yeah, yeah, no. So part of our bread and butter is evidence-based, flexible dieting. So I highly yeah, yeah, macros, and you know, covering, covering your micronutrients with, with a balanced, whole foods based approach where you can fit in indulgences and as long as you're fueling your body and getting enough carbs and not training fasted. That's one thing. I don't know if you agree on that one, but that's generally what I like to recommend.

Amanda Nigg: 45:42

I am not an intermittent fast girl. We're actually on the same page.

Amanda Nigg: 45:45

So I can't talk about that because that's super important to talk about. It's like I am a huge anti-intermittent fasting. If you're feeling your body correctly, there's no need to fast, first and foremost. And macros for those people that don't know the word macro means large, so you're focusing on the nutritional value of foods in large amounts. So protein, carbs and fats. Now in my training we really focus on um, high protein. Um, because protein is a building block of life.

Amanda Nigg: 46:13

But how I educate and teach it is super unique. Like I don't hand you a cookie cutter nutrition, brilliant. I more approach it as let's make this meal that's going to work for your whole family, because I were, I feed anywhere from four to eight people during harvest time, because we have seasonal health. I'm not going to make myself a meal and make them something totally the same, and so I really focus on making high protein meals. And then what I do is how I can customize. It is different size or toppings, and that's how I hit my macros. And then what I do is how I can customize it is different size or toppings, and that's how I hit my macros, and so it's more like sustainable.

Amanda Nigg: 46:47

But with that being said, oh yeah, if there's an Oreo on the counter. I'm totally going to have it. I'm all about flexibility. Like we drink whole milk in my household because, first and foremost, there's so many amazing benefits from whole milk. But you know, like that's the thing is. Like a lot of people are just not educated properly on nutrients and they feel like, oh, if I have a little Oreo, there goes my whole nutrition. No, it's about building a better relationship with food, and a lot of people are emotionally attached to food and that's why they struggle. I would and correct me wrong, phil but like um, I would take somebody that is obese in a program over somebody that's an under eater, because those under eaters is mental health.

Philip Pape: 47:36

It's much tougher, and they might have disordered eating in the past and everything and overweight or people who are obese have have a lot of energy to start with too, and they will make a lot of progress when they start training.

Amanda Nigg: 47:45

Yeah, Because, like when you take someone that's an under eater there, you can't even address nutrition without attack, like really working hard with them on viewing food as fuel. Um, and you know, the crazy thing is I actually had a couple of dietitians go through my program that were anorexic and that was super hard. I'm like wait, you're a dietitian teaching nutrition to people and you're anorexic. Like it was a hard struggle with them, but you know, they came out great and they actually started seeing muscle and it was. It turned out great, but it was really that mental health. Was super hard to work with them through that because it's just like they viewed they didn't view food as fuel. It was like a negative notation to them shout out to philip pay.

Max: 48:33

I know philly for a long time. I don't know how passionate he is about healthy eating and body strength, and that's why I choose him to be my coach. I was no stranger to dieting and body training, but I always struggled to do it sustainably. Philip helped me prioritize my goals with evidence-based recommendations while not overstressing my body and not feeling like I'm starving. In six months, I lost 45 pounds without drastically changing the foods I enjoy, but now I have a more balanced diet. I weight train consistently but, most importantly, I do it sustainably. If a scientifically sound, healthy diet and a lean, strong body is what you're looking for, philly Pape is your guy.

Philip Pape: 49:17

Let me ask did they, when they started moving more or lifting or whatever program you had them on? Did that tie into a better relationship with food, just on itself or Over time?

Amanda Nigg: 49:28

over time.

Amanda Nigg: 49:29

When they first started, they couldn't even lift five pounds because they didn't have the super weak and so we really had to hit the nutrition side of things and the mental health and the coaching and really tap into that. So I am actually certified um, uh, in psychology. Like we had to really tap into that first before we could even uncover and get them doing progressive overload and any of that talk. And so it was. It was, it was hard, but it was so worth it because now they look fabulous and it makes me feel better because they're the ones that are legit dietitians. They're out there working at medical facilities and it's like how could you have spent all those years being a?

Philip Pape: 50:10

dietitian. I know what you mean. There's definitely a lot of dichotomies like that. I've had coaches who coach other. They're nutrition coaches and they seek me out because they're certain. It's almost a form of education. They're seeking a better education with you. I think is also, even though it's for themselves. It also is for how they can help people. So you probably just helped at least two people and then everyone else they helped in the future, which is fun?

Philip Pape: 50:36

Yeah for sure. Yeah, Cause it's not about the information, it's really about the support, accountability, finding what works for you. So wait, you said psychology. That's an interesting one because I'm wondering from a psychological perspective, when we talk about some common things today, like anxiety, a lot of people seem to have anxiety. Again, I don't know how clinically diagnosed that is or if it's just people talking about it. Like we said, people talking about it, A lot of people are overwhelmed, highly stressed. Where does training and where does strength? Where does nutrition fit into that as potentially a protocol for it? You know, without any other variables changing, let's say, I know we're not talking about somebody who needs, like, some deep mental health or, um, you know what?

Amanda Nigg: 51:17

I'm saying Psychology is, uh, through ICF. Have you heard of that International coach federation? Um, yeah, it's one of the highest standards of Psychology teacher is through ICF. Have you heard of that International Coach Federation? Sounds familiar, yeah. Yeah, it's one of the highest standards of qualifications you could get, and the reason I got that and I'm actually continue working on it I'm working on Neurologistic Programming Master and Practitioner as we speak.

Philip Pape: 51:37

Oh, NLP.

Amanda Nigg: 51:37

But the reason I even dabbled into it is because of the fact that when you start like I've had countless women on antidepressant pills when they joined the program and again we've dabbled into this as like as you start to work out, like the hormones and just the amazing benefits that come from that it also pays into that because a lot of people might take an antidepress pill. Some people actually need them clinically need them. I'm not anti, like if you clinically need it, that's a whole different part. But if you take it because it was subscribed and first and foremost, I hope every doctor is talking to everybody about nutrition and exercise before they subscribe a pill, which is not the case but, with that being said, is like when you start to dive into a physical and nutrition and start to simplify that like anxiety let's take that one is as you start to go through it and build those healthy relationship and create a sustainable system for yourself.

Amanda Nigg: 52:39

The biggest thing we talked about was consistency earlier on is a lot of people get anxiety when stuff is not routine or it's out of their comfort zone and they get overwhelmed with situations, and the thing here is when you start to really start to pay attention to your body and the cues and what it gives off. Your anxiety is actually going to diminish or not because you're more intuitive of what your body needs. And same with antidepressant I've had countless women go off antidepressant pills after they joined. My program is because they realize, hey, I can actually show up for myself, you know, fit it in my routine and it's going to start to change my mindset and then I'm feeling myself next thing. You know I don't really need this antidepressant or this anxiety medication because I'm not as overwhelmed and you also, like, your hormones start to change as you go through that. I don't know if you want to go here.

Philip Pape: 53:36

No, no, that's good. I'm thinking like they had a sense of uncertainty and overwhelm and now they have a sense of control, confidence, structure, purpose. Even if it is like getting in tune with your own body signals, you do it in a structured way. That's like somebody's guiding you to say okay, we're going to look at this information about yourself, we're going to ask you questions, we're going to help you reflect, and then, before long, and then you hit the weights and you hit the discomfort of the gym and you're progressing there too. It's just an amazing soup of improvement going on.

Amanda Nigg: 54:06

Yeah, and it's like, honestly, like good fitness coaches out there, we need to be recognized because, like, yes, there is some pretty shitty fitness coaches out there, but I think you and I are on the same page as far as everything is. When you find a good coach, that is like you're not just a cheerleader in your back pocket, but somebody that's very knowledgeable and able to help you work through those, it can be life changing, it can be super transformative. And so, like I always like to say, instead of calling myself a fitness coach or a wellness coach, I like to say I'm a transformational coach, because that's truly what we are, at the end of the day is we're not just talking about fitness with you, we're not just, you know, educating you on nutrition or, you know, helping you create these habits for yourself. We're really transforming your life to something that, if not, where you were super healthy at one point, to even better, one of the stigmas. So I'm actually getting certified in youth coaching and the reason for this is a lot of certifications going on.

Philip Pape: 55:08

Well, it's good, it's good.

Amanda Nigg: 55:10

The youth coaching already done. I'm certified through NFHS. I'm a level three coach, so I actually already completed it, and the reason I did it is because there was a lot of school coaches out there that I was questioning their habits and I'm like I want to know what they want they have to know, and so the biggest thing there is, like it's they talked about the interscholastic coach or interscholastic coaching, which is like your student at top and then your parent and your coach are equal and how they all need to work together as a triangle, and I loved it and it just made me really eye-opening to the coaching around our area is. A lot of those coaches don't do that. They're all about the W and especially in like sixth grade, it shouldn't be about the W. It should be about developing that foundation and getting them excited to be able to be a part of that sport and move their body, and so that's why I went down that rabbit hole and got that certification, um, which I'm already for you.

Philip Pape: 56:08

Good for you, because that's there's like child abuse going on in some of these coaching practices with kids losing weight for wrestlers who are teenagers, like all this stuff? Yeah, I totally agree they need. You need to have that systems-based and team-based approach to help the athlete as a person for sure.

Amanda Nigg: 56:26

But I'll be the first to tell you I'm not part of the status quo over here.

Philip Pape: 56:29

So no, no, it's okay, we're all trying to break the mold. We're trying to break the mold.

Philip Pape: 56:34

So I like how you said. I like how you said transformation, Cause that is like a deep seated change in your identity over time. Um, I, I use terms like systems or engineering your life, engineering your body. It's the same idea, right, which is different terminology. And then, like you've mentioned, you know you go from I have to to I get to. There's a lot of reframing. I wanted to ask you about that too, Cause, again, we're talking about psychology, we're talking about mental health. How much of this is reframing as part of your identity shift and that is you. Eventually, everything is more of a positive lens, you know, more of an optimistic lens, you know, even though bad things happen. What are your thoughts on that? Like positive psychology?

Amanda Nigg: 57:12

Well, first and foremost, when you start anything, you're going to talk negative about yourself, like, let's be honest, like there's so many times I've, especially after having my second child, I'd look in the mirror and be like I'm fat, like only if I had this, only if I had that. Like how you talk to yourself is a huge indicator too of like, hey, you have to take that first step and be uncomfortable, and you know, a lot of people don't realize like the way you talk to yourself has a negative impact on your life. It really does. And you know, I always saw my mom fluctuate with weight and talk so negative about her body and I was like no, so like, one of the things I do with my boys is I don't talk about losing weight, I don't talk about random, like a negative terminology. I always talk about being strong and I'm like, I'm like so, for example, they would come in on one of my heavy lift days and I'd be like mom crush that she's on fire. She is strong, you know. And it's just like I'm really vocal about it because, like, when you start something, again, sometimes we talk negative and we're our own worst critic and we don't even realize it and it's just that frame of switching your mindset to feeling like you know what.

Amanda Nigg: 58:27

I showed up today, like your daughter, for example. She hated the speaking a thing and she's like you know what? I don't like it, but I know it's good you know. So it's a lot of that is part of a fitness journey as well. It's like you might suck at something in the beginning. We all suck. That's the thing. We all suck in the beginning. But as you keep going, it's just like your, how you talk and how you frame things and how like I get to instead of I have to. Those are huge part of the process as well. And you know and be like I get to show up today or I get to go to a basketball game with my kids or I get to feel our family Like I mean, do I like cooking every single day? Like I'm the cooker in our house? I don't know about you, but my husband does not cook, so if you cook, phil, you're like up on him.

Philip Pape: 59:15

I do about 10, 20% of the cooking at this point.

Amanda Nigg: 59:18

He doesn't even know how to make mac and cheese, but I love him, it's okay.

Philip Pape: 59:21

It's old farm, like the farm wives always go summertime, the grill comes out, then I cook a lot more.

Amanda Nigg: 59:27

I'm, I'm the griller. Well, he does. He does dabbling, grilling. I do love him. He's actually starting to get out of his comfort zone there.

Amanda Nigg: 59:33

But, like you know, that's the thing is like there was times, like when my boys were younger, I'm like, oh, I got to cook again. Or uh, here we go again. And now it's like I get to, I like enjoy it. I'm like I'm cooking something that's nutritious for my whole family, like I get to buy these ingredients to make this really yummy dish that I know they're going to love. Like yesterday, me and my youngest just made these really awesome, uh, nut bars that I'll be posting tomorrow and it was so fun to make it with him and like show him how to cook. And so it's just like I take those opportunities and I'm like, hey, I can teach my boys how to cook. And like I get this opportunity to teach how to fill the bodies, and so it's just like, going back to your question, I long winded that, but you know, just changing your mindset of how you speak to yourself is huge. You know, instead of saying I have to say I get to yeah, and that will be a huge difference in your life.

Philip Pape: 1:00:26

That is a simple one, right there, applied to everything what. There's somebody in our group program. She calls me a positivity bully because I would do that with her early on. She would say things like that, talking bad about herself, and I say, how about we reframe this? How about this about herself and say, how about we reframe this? How about this, how does this sound? And now she's an expert. It's like a skill you know, you develop, and now she's the one helping others. So we love to see that. Do you have time for like three rapid fire questions? Go for it, okay. Favorite lift.

Amanda Nigg: 1:00:51

Favorite lift. I'm a booty girl. I love Bulgarian spots are dead, oh my.

Philip Pape: 1:00:56

God. That's like hated across the world. That's good for you. I love booty. That's like hated across the world.

Amanda Nigg: 1:00:59

That's good for you, bootylicious booty. And those are my two favorite lifts, like if I had to pick one or the other. Seriously, I couldn't pick between the two of them.

Philip Pape: 1:01:07

And the deadlift is great. You like conventional or sumo? What's your flavor?

Amanda Nigg: 1:01:11

RDL.

Philip Pape: 1:01:12

Okay, great. Good for the hammies too, yeah, awesome. What is so, walking or cardio? I am not a cardio person.

Amanda Nigg: 1:01:19

So I'm not either.

Philip Pape: 1:01:22

I am a weight training like which is crazy, Cause in college I was so cardio person Like I ran a half marathon because you did CrossFit.

Amanda Nigg: 1:01:33

That that computes, that computes.

Philip Pape: 1:01:34

I used to be a hardcore.

Amanda Nigg: 1:01:35

I did create a 12 week running program. I'm going to test it out before I make it public. But, um, and my son's in cross country. So I am certified as a running coach, by the way. Uh, I am getting back into running. Uh, if you had to tell me like, walk on the treadmill 15 minutes or for 20 minutes at 15 incline with a weighted vest, I will hands down. Do that over.

Philip Pape: 1:01:56

I hear you. I've just got into sprinting myself, but I do not like running, running.

Amanda Nigg: 1:02:02

Hey, that's better than long distance running.

Philip Pape: 1:02:04

I'm there, yeah and the last one is um. What do you tell yourself during a hard lift?

Amanda Nigg: 1:02:10

oh gosh, actually I listen to meditation music when I lift as crazy as that sounds like the tibetan, like uh chimes and stuff like that.

Amanda Nigg: 1:02:19

No, I have a meditation music that I have on my. I used to listen to music like heavy, hardcore heavy metal. This year I switched to listening to audiobooks or meditation music and I can't tell you like it's the most amazing thing ever. I I don't know. It's just like the nuggets you grab from listening to auto you book when you left. I know some people are thinking I'm nuts right now. I listen to podcasts when I left.

Amanda Nigg: 1:02:43

Don't, it's, not it's it's, it's the time that I get, but, um, when I tell myself, on heavy lift is one more, one more, you got one more. Like, keep pushing yourself, like you can do one more. Now I'll Like, I just like, especially on our training, you know as many reps as possible, like on a training day.

Philip Pape: 1:03:03

Yes.

Amanda Nigg: 1:03:04

Always tell myself would you get last round? You can crush that Like one more, you know, and it's sometimes we have to remind ourselves that, like we always can, like the way we speak to ourselves during that moment says a lot about our character and says a lot about our persistence, but also shows that, like the mindset is so intuitive to your body, your mind, your body will go where your mind tells it.

Philip Pape: 1:03:27

Oh yeah, your body has far more capacity than your mind usually allows and if you allow it, it can outperform more than you imagine. And it's funny, there's two different types of hards I always think about when it comes to heavy lift. It's like either volume work, where it's the reps, or it's heavy and and you know you don't have a lot of reps, but now each one is just this massive undertaking, right. So either one. This morning I did volume work and, just like you're saying, I did 10 sets of three squat, but they were fairly sub-maximal, but by like or not set 10, but six sets and by like rep five. I'm like my quads are telling me can I really do this? Of course you can do it, just you gotta do it, you know, I mean your mind.

Amanda Nigg: 1:04:06

if your mindset, and don't your body, will go where your mind tells it, Like I mean really, you can do anything as long as you could like.

Philip Pape: 1:04:16

believe in yourself. It is true. It is true it's it's like a trite thing we say, but it is 100% true and you got to believe it. All right. So I know we covered a lot of different things. There's probably a lot we didn't cover, but is there anything you wish I had asked?

Amanda Nigg: 1:04:27

Oh my gosh, we covered a ton. I don't think so. Like I mean, if anybody's ever interested in my story, they can obviously find me. But I mean, if they want to know about agriculture, I mean I'm an open book.

Philip Pape: 1:04:39

All right. So you kind of alluded to where people could fight or what you provide, but where can they find you? So I can throw that in the show notes.

Amanda Nigg: 1:04:46

Awesome. Well, first, thank you for letting me get on. You can find me on Instagram, facebook and X as FarmFitMama. It's FarmFitM-O-M-M-A. I am on TikTok, but I will tell you right now I do not post on it. I kind of deleted that out for now and I'm not on Snapchat, so don't find me over there. And my business page is FarmFit Training and it's on all those same platforms Instagram, facebook and X. And then I also have a website. Go check that out.

Philip Pape: 1:05:13

It's farmfitmamacom All right, we'll throw those in the show notes for sure.

Amanda Nigg: 1:05:26

Thank you so much, amanda, for coming on. This was fun. Appreciate you taking your time. Yeah, thank you for having me on. I really appreciate it.

Epic Q&A - 30 Nutrition & Training Questions Answered with Spartan Efficiency | Ep 300

Submit your question and get featured on a future Q&A or dedicated episode or go to witsandweights.com/question

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It's our 300th episode, so we're doing an epic Q&A!

Like King Leonidas facing the Persian army, we're battling fitness misinformation with 30 razor-sharp answers to your most burning questions.

I'm tackling supplement efficacy, training myths, nutrition controversies, and the truth about building muscle and losing fat... all with the brutal efficiency of a Spartan phalanx.

From Instagram physique realities to whether cardio kills gains, these answers (as always) bring you evidence-based advice that works in the real world.

Main Takeaways:

• Creatine has benefits beyond lifting

• Natural physiques with visible abs are achievable even after 40

• Progressive overload is essential for gains but can be achieved through multiple methods

• Spot reduction of fat is largely a myth, but spot enhancement is very real and effective

• The "eat clean or die" could be holding you back

• ...and tons more!

Timestamps:

0:00 - Celebrating 300 episodes (wow!)
5:30 - Supplement questions (creatine, caffeine, EAAs)
12:47 - Training questions (bands vs. free weights, range of motion, overtraining)
23:24 - Nutrition and body composition (Instagram physiques, carbs, dessert cravings)
41:25 - Mindset and biggest fitness myths (training and nutrition) 

Simplifying Fitness: Top Insights from Answering 30 Big Questions

Ever feel like you’ve spent years hitting the gym, but you still don’t quite look like you lift? Or maybe you're drowning in conflicting advice about carbs, creatine, and how to build muscle without adding unwanted fat. Fitness can feel like an endless battle against misinformation—but it doesn’t have to be.

In a special milestone episode, we tackled 30 burning nutrition and training questions with Spartan-like efficiency. Here are just a few of the biggest insights to clear the confusion and accelerate your results:

Creatine Isn’t Just for Lifters

Creatine isn’t only about gaining strength and muscle—it can also boost cognitive function and performance outside the gym. Unlike trendy ATP supplements, creatine has decades of research backing its effectiveness and safety. Worried about side effects? Studies consistently show creatine is safe for most healthy people—even those managing conditions like high blood pressure.

Progressive Overload is Key—But It’s Not Just About Heavy Weights

Yes, lifting heavier over time matters, but it’s not the only path to muscle growth. Increasing your training volume (sets, reps), frequency, or improving exercise technique can also drive progress. Full range of motion beats partial reps for overall gains, but remember—your technique matters most for safety and results.

No, Carbs Won’t Kill Your Gains

Many still fear carbs, but here’s the truth: carbohydrates fuel your performance, especially during intense training. Low-carb diets can still support muscle growth, but carbs typically make it easier and more efficient to achieve your physique goals. Another myth busted? Cardio doesn’t automatically kill muscle gains—only doing too much without proper recovery does.

Instagram Physiques—Real or Enhanced?

Those flawless physiques flooding your feed aren’t always what they seem. Most social media influencers with extreme physiques rely heavily on favorable lighting, perfect angles, and often, performance-enhancing substances. Achieving a muscular, lean look naturally is entirely possible, even after age 40, but it takes patience, proper nutrition, and consistent training—not quick fixes or unrealistic standards.

There Are No “Good” or “Bad” Foods

Restrictive diets labeling certain foods as "bad" do more harm than good. Sustainable success comes from adding nourishing foods—like adequate protein, fiber, and healthy fats—rather than obsessively cutting out food groups. Balance, not restriction, is your best ally.

Ready for More?

We've barely scratched the surface. For rapid-fire answers to dozens more questions—from spot reduction myths to overcoming junk food cravings—check out the full episode. Armed with these insights, you’ll save time, optimize your training, and finally see the results you've worked so hard for.

👩‍💻 Book a FREE 15-Minute Rapid Nutrition Assessment:
https://witsandweights.com/free-call

👥 Join our Facebook community for live Q&As & support

👋 Let's connect! Ask a question, get my FREE newsletter, or find me on Instagram

📱 Try MacroFactor for free with code WITSANDWEIGHTS.

🏋️‍♀️ Download Boostcamp for free for evidence-based workout programs

🫙 Get 20% off Legion supplements with code WITSpod

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Transcript

Philip Pape: 0:01

Have you been hitting the gym for years but still don't look like you lift? Are you confused by all the conflicting advice about protein timing, cardio killing gains and whether creatine is worth it? Like King Leonidas facing the seemingly infinite hordes of fitness misinformation, do you wish you could just cut through it all with a simple this is science. Today we're celebrating our 300th episode by standing against the Persian army of fitness myths, not with 300 Spartans, but with 30 razor sharp answers to your most burning questions about building muscle, losing fat and optimizing your metabolism. From whether Instagram physiques are achievable to killing junk food cravings and training to failure, we're going to cover it all today with the brutal efficiency of a Spartan phalanx. So prepare yourself for glory. I mean gains, because tonight we dine on protein.

Philip Pape: 1:02

Welcome to Wits and Weights, the show that helps you build a strong, healthy physique using evidence, engineering and efficiency. I'm your host, philip Pape, and today we are nerding out and celebrating a massive milestone our 300th episode. That is right 300 episodes of science-based, no-nonsense fitness and nutrition advice to help you build muscle, lose fat and optimize your metabolism, and so much more. And what better way to celebrate that than to channel our inner Spartans from Zack Snyder's visually incredible, if historically questionable, epic 300. Just as King Leonidas and his 300 elite warriors held the narrow pass at Thermopylae, we'll be using the narrow pass of scientific evidence which is pretty narrow at times given all the influencers that are out there to fight back against the Xerxes of fitness myths, the immortal supplement hucksters, the cardio and carb fear mongers and the eat clean or die zealots. We may not have rippling CGI enhanced eight packs, we might not fight in anything but red capes and leather speedos, but we do have some weapons peer-reviewed research evidence, practical experience that are far more effective in the real world. Before we dive into this battle against fitness myths and confusion, I want to take a moment to thank you taste of what people are experiencing with the show.

Philip Pape: 2:47

We have one review from Matko Haig who says Philip helped me with my workouts. I was afraid to push more weight because of my injuries, but that's what helped me feel a lot better. I listen to all of his podcasts now. Love to hear that when someone takes the advice and helps improve their life with it, including getting past some of those fears. Another reviewer, jeff, said Philip does a fantastic job breaking down the fitness industry and helping listeners navigate weight loss more effectively. His recent episode on how carbs, fats and proteins function in the body was especially insightful. I highly recommend his podcast for anyone looking to deepen their understanding of fitness and nutrition. Yeah, that was a fun one, that episode. We explored what happens when macros go into your body. I love to nerd out on that stuff. Then we have a review from Alblamb. Love the research-based advice and the vantage point from an engineer. Feel like we speak the same language. Super informative if you're looking to learn how to actually learn how the body works so you can create the adaptations you desire and not waste time on lies and fad diets. Definitely worth a listen. So those are just a taste of the reviews that have come in and I want to thank everyone who's ever submitted a review. If you want a shout out and I haven't given it to you hit me up, send me an email. Philip1l at witsandweightscom. Every time I hear from a listener, it just makes my day. It motivates me to keep creating content that helps you achieve your goals.

Philip Pape: 4:07

All right, let's get into today's q a extravaganza, because we are tackling an epic number of 30 questions Ranging from supplements and training to nutrition, to recovery. It's all the things. Some will be quick, others a little bit more detailed, but I'm going to try to keep them very Efficient and actionable so you can apply them right away if they're relevant to you. Just real quick, before we actually get into the questions. If you have a question about anything in this realm, I want you to go to witsandweightscom slash question. That's the easiest way to get it to me and then I will definitely answer it personally via email and on a future episode, and I'll give you a shout out. You can let me know if you don't want that. Again, go to witsandweightscom slash question and I'll help you out.

Philip Pape: 4:52

All right, spartans of the iron, let's prepare for glory. Today, as Delios would say, the Oracle's words stand as a warning. Except in our case, the Oracle isn't some mystic priestess with questionable fashion sense, but our very own listeners who've sent in their burning questions. I organized these into some categories and we'll approach them with the precision of a Spartan at least I hope so and instead of spears and shields, we're going to have research and evidence. Remember no retreat, no surrender is great for the movies, but knowing when to adjust your approach is really the smartest strategy when it comes to fitness.

Philip Pape: 5:30

So let's start our battle against misinformation with some supplement questions from Helene, and she asked question one is creatine only for people who lift? Absolutely not All right. Creatine is pretty amazing, one of the most studied supplements. It is known for how it benefits your training and your performance, but it has advantages for anyone who wants to boost performance in general not just lifting, including includes athletics, sprinting Um and it also has cognitive benefits that we're discovering. Studies show that it may help with brain function, especially when you're stressed or sleep deprived, kind of in a way that we see adaptogens help some people like ashwagandha. So, whether you are lifting or you want to just have more mental energy, I think creatine is great for anybody of all ages. You take five grams a day. If you want the cognitive benefits, you potentially want to take more 10, 15, perhaps 20 grams a day. Kind of depends on your size as well, but it is one of the few supplements that I recommend to everyone and has solid evidence behind it.

Philip Pape: 6:27

Question two is caffeine necessary when you lift? No, it's not necessary, nothing's necessary. Is it helpful? Yeah, I think caffeine is one of the best pre-workouts that exist. That's totally natural. It's found in black coffee and it's found in a lot of pre-workouts. We know from the literature it can increase your power output. It can improve your endurance, it can enhance your focus. I mean, anybody knows this I drink caffeine in the morning. I can tell that's my most focused time of the day. Obviously there's other aspects and reasons why you don't have to do it. It's like you don't have to eat before you train no-transcript. But for training purposes, take it 30 to 45 minutes before. Remember that it has diminishing returns if you drink it a lot and you get adapted to it, but it can be a good tool. So yeah, it's not necessary, but it can be a helpful tool.

Philip Pape: 7:22

Question three which macro is the most important? So this is like asking which wheel on my car is most important. Right, they're all necessary. But if I had to rank them, I'd say that protein is definitely at the top in terms of physique development. We know it is essential to maintain and grow muscles. It has a high thermic effect, meaning it burns more calories when you eat it. It satiety, so it fills you up. But really you want to balance your macros for your goals and that usually looks like a good balance of protein, fats and carbs. Carbs fuel performance and recovery fats, support hormones and hormonal health.

Philip Pape: 7:57

The most important macro is probably the one that you're currently neglecting, and for a lot of people that is protein. For others it might be carbs. So take a look, track your food, know what targets are and you can get in the ballpark in terms of muscle protein synthesis. It maybe gets a little bit overplayed in terms of its benefits, because if you're eating enough overall protein that 0.7 to one gram per pound of body weight you're already getting plenty of leucine. If you have it from whole food sources or whey protein, whey protein is very high in it and for most lifters, if you you know, isolated leucine supplementation has minimal added benefit, kind of like EAAs, right, you're kind of wasting your money on that. You might as well just buy whole protein, enjoy eating food and definitely creatine, like we mentioned before. If you're fasted training, which I recommend to almost no one a small dose might provide a theoretical benefit, but then I would again just have protein, just regular protein anyway, because some people don't consider that breaking the fast. Regular protein anyway, because some people don't consider that breaking the fast. But yeah, it's found in pre-workouts. So if you use, like Legion Pulse, for example. L-leucine is in there, along with a couple other evidence-based compounds that we know can be helpful for a little bit of a boost in performance. All right.

Philip Pape: 9:18

Next question Number five is creatine safe for people with high blood pressure? So this is a good one. Another creatine question, because people wonder about the efficacy, the safety, some of the symptoms. The research currently says that it does not impact blood pressure in most healthy people and some actually show improvements in cardiovascular markers. Obviously, if you have pre-existing hypertension, consult your doctor. This is not medical advice. Any supplement you're going to start, you should know your conditions, what the potential side effects are. Talk to a doctor, monitor your blood pressure. If that's a concern when you begin supplementing, start with a lower dose, stay well hydrated and also remember that creatine causes you to retain water, which is normal. It's not a blood pressure concern by itself, but for anything you're concerned about, it's good to consult a doctor and also track these things. Get the blood markers whatever makes sense. Take your blood pressure, all right.

Philip Pape: 10:08

Question number six ATP versus creatine. Why do some people, like Frank's saying, use ATP instead, and is it a viable alternative? All right, atp, which is adenosine triphosphate supplements, that is the let's cut out the middleman approach, since creatine works by helping your body generate ATP faster. However, oral ATP supplements have really low bioavailability because your digestive system just breaks down most of it before it even reaches your muscles. There are studies that show some modest performance benefits, but they're very inconsistent and they typically require much higher doses than creatine. Why did Frank Zane use it? Well, the supplement industry was very different back in the golden era and not everyone had access to the research we have today. So if you want results that have been proven by decades of research, stick with creatine. It's cheaper, it's better research, it is more effective. That's my answer.

Philip Pape: 11:01

All right, question seven are essential amino acids, eaas, actually beneficial for muscle growth or are they just expensive pee? I would say more the latter probably a waste of money. They might support muscle protein synthesis if you're training fasted or you have low protein intake. In fact they probably do a tiny bit. But if you're consuming adequate protein throughout the day, your total protein then the EAAs don't really provide any benefit. Um, they're, you know, a waste of money. They're not magical muscle builders.

Philip Pape: 11:32

Your body will use what it needs. It'll excretes the rest If you have sufficient protein. If you're not training fasted, you don't need them at all. Even if you are training fasted I alluded to earlier, you still probably could just have protein before and or after and not quote unquote break the fast. But that is not my world. I don't recommend training fasted. Just in general, I recommend having protein and carbs. So put the money toward quality food, evidence-based supplements, like creatine we've been talking about, uh, and which is the last time we're going to mention it and the one exception, I think, is maybe vegans or those with very restricted diets who'd struggle to get complete protein, in which case I would try to address the protein issue itself.

Philip Pape: 12:07

All right, so let's move on to some training questions. Question number eight how effective is training with heavy bands compared to free weights? So bands, they are just a. They're like a rubber band. They're a way to create variable resistance. They're easier at the bottom, they're harder at the top, like when they are stretched. That is a strength of them. It's also a limitation, because if you're trying to do some rehab, some isolation work, like pull-aparts, for example, band pull-aparts or some of the shoulder stuff that I use a band for in my house, I actually do that. They're great, but they can't replicate, for example, the consistent tension of free weights throughout a movement's full range of motion. Again, that's not a bad thing.

Philip Pape: 12:47

I've done a combination of weights and bands as well. You can put bands on a deadlift or bands on a squat. That's called accommodating resistance, and if you just isolate them, though, and you look at the studies, they show consistently that free weights produce superior strength and hypertrophy gains to bands. But bands are great for travel, for home gyms. I mentioned accommodating resistance, rehab, all of that. They're a valuable tool in your arsenal. I don't think they're a complete replacement for free weights, but you can argue with me on this. There are band-centric programs where there's a lot of thought behind it. You're using special types of bands. It's really good programming. I'm not gonna be dogmatic about it, but for the vast majority of people, just stick with free weights and you're going to have great results. All right.

Philip Pape: 13:26

Question number nine Do you really have to lift heavy just to avoid having a dad bod? I don't know how to answer this one. I'm going to say do you have to? Depends on how we define heavy, and if we're saying above, say, 80 or even 90% of your 1RM, do you have to no. I think progressive resistance, progressive loading, lifting well above 30% of your 1RM, focusing on hypertrophy, could absolutely get rid of the dad bod if combined with proper nutrition, because ultimately you probably need to lose fat. You need to build muscle, you need to lose fat. However, I think the most effective route to that for someone new is to use compound lifts, fairly heavy, to focus on strength First. I talked all about this in last Wednesday's episode strength versus hypertrophy. Check that one out. You've got to build muscle and maintain muscle when you're dieting. You've got to avoid excessive fat gain and lose fat if you're overweight. You want to progress and be consistent, right, you don't have to be a power lifter. You don't have to be always strength focused on one or Ms. You have to challenge your muscles regularly and keep your nutrition in check and you can definitely get rid of the dad bod. So it depends on your goals. Go check out episode two, 97, on strength versus hypertrophy, for deep dive into that. All right.

Philip Pape: 14:39

Question number 10, what is the advantage of range of motion or ROM in lifting? Should you focus on skeletal range of motion or muscular range of motion, which is safer? This is an interesting one, because I really don't use those terms, I just use range of motion in general. You know full ROM full range of motion typically builds more muscle because it creates greater mechanical tension throughout the movement and you hit the shortened and lengthened portions of the muscle, even though we know you could also get great results from focusing on just parts of the range of motion, and sometimes we do it deliberately right. Full ROM doesn't always mean maximal ROM. It means the optimal ROM for the specific exercise and also your individual. You know biomechanics. So for compound movements, skeletal ROM, like getting full depth in a squat, is very important. For an isolation exercise, muscle ROM, like feeling the stretch and contraction, might be important, and you know safety comes from proper form within your capabilities and forcing yourself into some range that your body cannot handle. That. That's where injuries happen. But the best approach is master technique and then increase ROM as you get better at that specific lift so that you're full ROM for most movements.

Philip Pape: 15:51

All right, number 11, do you need to lift heavier and heavier to keep gaining muscle, or is there another way to progress? All right, this is a confusing thing for people because we talk about progressive overload, which is is a non-negotiable Like. You have to. You have to progressively increase the challenge to continue gaining. But getting heavier on your weights is just one form of that. You can increase your volume, which is sets, times, reps. You can even improve your execution quality, especially when you're newer and get more efficiency from your lifts and have results that way. That's more of a neuromuscular thing. You can shorten your rest periods. You can increase just your reps. You can even add frequency. There's a lot of ways the body responds to novel stimuli, right Increased challenge in all of its forms. So as you advance the weight increases are going to naturally slow down. You can't just forever get stronger, but you can keep progressing and build your muscles slowly over time and then build strength and then build muscle, build strength and kind of periodize over time to get bigger and stronger until you pretty much hit your genetic limit, which, I'll be honest, most people never do. So the answer is no, you don't need to. It's a great and simple way to do it when you're new. But then eventually you go into advanced forms of progressive overload, which I've talked about in the podcast. If you go to podcastwitsandweightscom you can search all our episodes and you can look for progressive overload and you'll see some good episodes on that, all right.

Philip Pape: 17:12

Question number 12, can you grow muscle purely from mechanical tension or do micro tears in the muscle need to occur? Ooh, I like this one because again last week I talked about strength versus hypertrophy and the importance of mechanical tension across the full spectrum. Mechanical tension is the primary driver of hypertrophy, that's the increase in muscle size, in muscle mass, which supports both strength and hypertrophy. Past the newbie phase, microterrors, which is muscle damage, it's more of a side effect than a requirement or an input. Studies show you can build muscle with minimal muscle damage. And what's called the micro tear theory. It's been somewhat overstated and that's why things like soreness are not a reliable indicator of effective training, because your muscles adapt to the tension that you play on them, regardless of whether you're sore afterward. So I would just focus again on progressive overload, consistent training, rather than chasing micro tears.

Philip Pape: 18:06

Question 13, what's the deal with vibration plates? Are they effective and who should and shouldn't use them? All right, vibration plates, man, I think these have been around in some form or another for decades. They are something you want to laugh at, but then, at the same time, they may not be completely useless for things like improving blood flow, enhancing recovery, providing some low intensity activation for people who are deconditioned, maybe for warming up, maybe for increasing circulation in injured areas, maybe as an entry point for people who are just extremely limited mobility, but they're not going to replace what we should be doing Resistance training, progressive resistance training to build strength and muscle.

Philip Pape: 18:45

I frankly don't give them a second thought. I wouldn't even look into them. For most people I wouldn't even consider them. However, maybe you found a special case for them. If you have bone density issues, for example. It might be a negative for those things. I have no idea, so I don't know much about them. I don't recommend them to anybody. This is not the podcast really to get into that. Maybe I'll change my mind in the future. That's all I have to say on it.

Philip Pape: 19:06

Number 14, when does overtraining actually start? Is it just beyond the pump or is there a real threshold? All right. So overtraining, what is it? It's a clinical syndrome that develops over months. It's not just something that happens over a few days or weeks. What most people experience in the short term is actually called overreaching. That's where your performance dips and then it resolves in a week or two once you back off a little bit on your training or you increase your recovery. Maybe you need to eat more, maybe you need to sleep more. Whatever it might be True overtraining, which most people do not experience, it's very systemic, so you're going to have persistent fatigue. You're going to have decreased performance Even when you're rested. You're going to have mood disturbances, a higher heart rate, hormonal disruptions right, there's not like a universal threshold. It's very complex, based on your training history, your ability to recover, your life, stress, like all of this stuff. I recommend monitoring performance metrics and markers of recovery and biofeedback. And if your performance is constantly declining, despite having addressed adequate rest, adequate nutrition, adequate carbs, adequate sleep, you're likely overreaching and should scale back. But again, this is different than overtraining. I think overtraining is kind of like the chronic version of lots and lots of overreaching. All right.

Philip Pape: 20:24

Question number 15, getting us halfway through here. How do concepts like go to failure, go heavy or go home and forced reps impacting natural lifter versus an enhanced lifter? All right, so I'm not an expert in enhanced lifting, that is, using anabolics and other uh medications and compounds to get an edge. Enhanced lifters are obviously able to recover a lot from higher training volumes, from higher intensities. They have artificially elevated capabilities to do that.

Philip Pape: 20:54

If you're natural, training to failure on every set can lead to overreaching. Because you don't have that enhanced recoverability, you're going to have central nervous system fatigue, you're going to have increased injury risk without the gains to go along with it, right? So research at this point is clear that stopping one to two reps short of failure in most sets is going to optimize the stimulus to fatigue ratio and it's even further from failure on bigger, heavier lifts. Occasional failure sets are fine, right, like we do them all the time. If you're doing barbell curls and you go to failure, that's great. Intensity techniques, force reps, even cheetah reps, those are all valuable tools. Myo reps, rest, pause, drop sets. But I would use them strategically. I would use them potentially just on the last set or the last exercise after you focused on the main priorities of your strength or hypertrophy program, maybe during deload weeks. It's the accumulated volume over time that's going to build your muscle, not again how often you go right to failure or feel destroyed after each workout.

Philip Pape: 21:56

Question number 16, what is the threshold for overtraining and how do you know you've crossed it? So we touched on overtraining a few questions ago and I mentioned that there's no universal threshold. I also mentioned the warning signs like performance decreases, chronic fatigue um, that doesn't get fixed with sleep, elevated heart rate, et cetera. But I wanted to bring it up here again because the thing I think you should be focusing on is having productive training and really having a lot of recovery and space. Recovery and space and I use the word space to mean some of you are just doing too much. Even when you're lifting appropriately, you're then filling in the days in between with lots of running or lots of cardio or, yeah, maybe you're not sleeping enough, maybe you're not eating enough, maybe you're under eating and then doing the wrong program while you're under eating. So tracking recovery metrics like HRV could be helpful and your biofeedback on scores scales of one to 10, like your sleep, your stress, your hunger, your digestion and so on, your mood, even your libido, and when those scores are failing, despite the adequate rest and nutrition, that is when you've crossed the line. That is the threshold to me.

Philip Pape: 23:01

Question number 17,. Should beginners train differently than intermediate or advanced lifters, or is progressive overload always the answer? Okay, so I'm going to say yes to both. In other words, progressive overload is the principle no matter what, but the way that you train, the method that you train, will change based on your beginner, intermediate or advanced. To achieve progressive overload? Great question, because I'd love to make that distinction.

Philip Pape: 23:24

Training's gonna evolve with your experience. Beginners are gonna benefit most from learning proper technique, having moderate volume but high frequency. That means you're squatting a lot or you're benching a lot because you can recover quickly, focusing on the compound lifts because they're very efficient, they use more muscle mass, they recruit more muscle fibers, going heavier and focusing on strength and training your full body, usually three days a week, and you're going to progress not just weekly but every session as you master these movement patterns and develop that neuromuscular efficiency media. And you need more volume. You need weak point training. You need potentially body part splits right, you need more accessory work, you need more medium and lighter intensity work for the main lifts and so on Once you become advanced. Now you need periodization, specialization, specific recovery strategies like stretching out your training weeks. There's so many things you know base and peak development, mesocycles and so on but progressive overload remains the same principle, no matter who you are. It's just how you implement the changes right and a beginner is going to add, you know, five pounds to their squat every session. An advanced lifter might add five pounds every six months to a year, right. So they're still progressing, but the training variables that drive the progress shift as you advance.

Philip Pape: 24:42

All right, so let's move on to some nutrition and body composition questions. Now we've got question 18. How realistic is it to be muscular with six pack abs? Is everybody on Instagram really on steroids? What about those 40 or older? Can they achieve that? Look naturally, all right.

Philip Pape: 25:00

The Instagram physique, which I get flooded with it in my search tab, no matter, even if I try to search for things that have nothing to do with it, eventually it works its way back to just flooding me with these incredible bodybuilder style physiques. They're pretty much all enhanced, right, and the massive muscles, they're shredded abs all year round, right For for natural lifters. That is not sustainable. You might get to that point for a brief period and if you want to do that, fine, have fun with it, figure it out. It's fun to do that. But the influencers most of them are enhanced. Most of them are using favorable lighting or angles. Many of them are just maintaining a specific pose or angle or condition. Briefly, for the photos. Actually, I appreciate some of the influencers who show what they look like five minutes apart based on two different poses and lighting. You know, one case they look kind of frumpy and flabby and in the other case they're like jacked. You get it right. It's all manipulation.

Philip Pape: 25:55

But having said all that, being muscular with visible abs, you know, not necessarily dice-like like you know, totally shredded with vascularity, but really solid abs, it's totally achievable, naturally, even over 40. There's no age limit. I know a guy whose podcast I was on. He's in his 80s, he's a competitive bodybuilder and he has abs. It's just having enough muscle and low enough fat, which takes years to do. You're not going to just reveal your abs immediately Now. Could you cut fat down significantly and reveal abs without spending too much time building muscle, possibly based on your genetics, but for most people you got to train your abs and there are effective loaded ways to do that, and then you've got to diet down to have low enough body fat to show them. But trust me, I mean myself. I'm in my forties and every cycle I go through of building muscle, the abs are more and more visible at a higher body fat. So it kind of takes precision initially, but then you can get a pretty impressive physique well into your fifties, sixties, beyond, by doing the things we talk about.

Philip Pape: 26:55

Question 19,. Can you lift big without eating a ton of carbs, or do you need them for performance? Oh, I love questions about carbs. You can absolutely lift heavy on lower carb intakes, right. Just look at any strength athlete in weight class sports who minimize carbs when they're cutting. Look at myself right now. I'm in a fat loss phase on very low calories, intentionally so, because I'm going aggressively for a mini cut and I'm still lifting heavy. Doesn't mean I'm going to hit PRs, right.

Philip Pape: 27:26

There's a reason that carbs are the preferred fuel for high-intensity exercise. They efficiently convert, or the carbs are converted to ATP and that helps with those explosive movements. And studies always not always consistently show that moderate to high-carb intake optimizes performance for lifters and helps you build more muscle versus lower carb diets period. However, the individual response matters. If you're say, quote unquote keto adapted I kind of cringe at the term, but you're keto adapted or you prefer low carb for other reasons, you can definitely make gains, but then you have to really pay attention to your total calories, your protein timing, the carbs that you do have strategically around your workouts and maybe using only targeted, periodized approaches when you're talking about low carbs, but if it's not like a dogmatic thing that you feel you have to follow, just eat your carbs. It's going to help you perform better. You could definitely lift big in a fat loss phase while you're not eating that many carbs. You just may not increase your strength or muscle, but you're definitely going to hold on to it. All right. Question 20. We're getting there Two-thirds of the way through here.

Philip Pape: 28:28

Is it true that cardio kills gains or muscle? What about heart health? Is walking enough? So cardio only kills gains when it creates a deficit in your recovery, when it impedes you from recovering or when it exacerbates your calorie deficit to push you into an extreme where you lose muscle. Now it's almost hard to get there for a lot of people, because when you do too much cardio, your body will actually compensate by lowering your metabolism, but then what that ends up doing is forcing you to eat less to maintain a deficit. That's what I mean, not that that cardio itself gets into a deficit. So moderate cardio, especially walking. Walking, yeah, it's a form of cardio, but cycling, swimming, can absolutely enhance recovery. They can help with your work capacity, with your conditioning. They can support muscle growth by helping with nutrient delivery, with blood sugar, with insulin sensitivity, the list goes on. For heart health, walking is the foundation. If you're hitting that like 7,000 to 10,000 steps a day, it is ideal, and then adding in once or twice a week some sprinting, is a solid approach. Any other cardio it's really up to you how you're able to manage the recovery program. It in keep it from being intense and separate it from, like your leg workouts and, ideally, from your training days. But no, it's not gonna kill gains unless it kills recovery.

Philip Pape: 29:49

Question 21, why do we always have room for dessert, even when we're full? Is there a biological reason for sweet cravings? Okay, and I joked, I think I joked and I said oh, you mean the dessert chamber, like my family's joked about for years, where you could even be stuffed from dinner and somehow still have room for ice cream or that pie, thanksgiving anyone, or the holidays. So this is called sensory-specific satiety, in case you want to label it Basically your taste buds. They get bored with similar flavors but then they respond to new ones that are sweet, that are novel. The food science industry absolutely knows this phenomenon because our brains evolved to prioritize energy-dense foods, especially sugar, when they are available, because they were rare in our evolutionary past. And sweet foods also trigger dopamine, that's your pleasure-reward chemical, and that creates a feedback loop that makes you want to eat more. Right? So, physiologically, your stretch receptors in your stomach might say you're full, but your hedonic hunger system that's the pleasure-based eating overrides those signals. When having protein first, having a drink of water, that reduces this effect when compared to, say, starting with carbs or fats. So, yes, the answer is yes, there's a biological reason for this, but it doesn't mean you have no control.

Philip Pape: 31:14

Question 22, how do you kill cravings for junk food and actually feel satisfied with healthy choices? So I thought this was a natural segue from the last question. This is both physiological that means your body, your biology, it's also psychological in your mind, which are connected. We know this. So the first thing is to ensure your diet has enough protein, which you want anyway. It keeps you full, it's great for muscles, et cetera. Enough fiber, which helps stabilize blood sugar. It's great for your gut, for your digestion, also for satiety. Fiber which helps stabilize blood sugar it's great for your gut, for your digestion, also for satiety. And people on carnivore are missing out on that benefit. And also enough fat, because fat does increase satisfaction in terms of mouthfeel, taste and so on. And so cravings often hit when we are under eating satiating nutrients. It's interesting, right, because you would think it comes from eating too much or eating the wrong things, but it's under eating the things that we need. So that's why I like additive nutrition adding in the things that we want and need.

Philip Pape: 32:09

The second thing is addressing your habit loops, and that is identifying the triggers for your cravings and then create new routines around those, having a pattern, interrupt or a swap. And then, third, you want to gradually replace foods with the additive approach. You've got ultra-processed foods. Replace them with more nutritious whole foods that have similar taste profiles and experiences. Right, kind of like roasted chickpeas might give you a similar experience as potato chips, and your palate is going to adapt over time. It's going to get used to things. You're going to eventually not really like some of those ultra-processed foods or restaurant food. Anyway, your body is going to rebel as you're eating more nutritious foods. And of course, the last thing and I should have started with this, but don't make any food forbidden. There is no bad food. There's no good food, because what you're doing is you're increasing the psychological weight or value of the food. Instead, you want to plan the occasional indulgences in rather than have them reactively, so it avoids decision fatigue and you just have them as part of your plan. Consistency is always going to beat perfection and the sustainable changes like this are going to win over deprivation every time.

Philip Pape: 33:18

Number 23, is spot reduction of fat a myth? What actually happens to fat during exercise? I mean, this is kind of a loaded question. It could be a whole episode by itself. Spot reduction itself is largely a myth. When your body needs energy, it's gonna release fatty acids from your entire fat stores, regardless of which muscles you're working, and fat is mobilized based on hormonal signals. It has nothing to do with local muscle activity. What happens during exercise is you create a little bit of an energy deficit in the moment, and that prompts your body to release fatty acids into the bloodstream for energy, in addition to the energy you get, of course, from glycogen, from glucose, and the fat is transported to your muscles to be oxidized for fuel. There are studies that show this very tiny increased blood flow and lipolysis in areas that are trained directly, like your abs, but the effect is so small that it can't possibly create spot reduction. So the most effective approach again is going to be a calorie deficit through diet, through training Resistance training helps preserve muscle and build muscle, and don't overthink trying to reduce anything in a particular area.

Philip Pape: 34:24

Question number 24, can targeted exercises build muscle in a specific area even if they don't reduce fat in that spot? So again, I wanted to segue from the last one, because this is an absolute yes. So while, like, spot reduction is pretty much a myth, spot enhancement is a real thing. If you think of it that way, it will give you the physical and the physique result you're looking for without the necessity of spot reduction. You can target your biceps by using more bicep curls. You can target your glutes through squats and hip thrusts. You can target your abs through loaded ab work. Right, the caveat is that there are genetic factors. You may not have a six pack or an eight pack. You may have a seven pack. You may have something wonky there, you can't do anything about that, but you can add muscle there and then you can lose fat, kind of like we talked about earlier. Right, and the more muscle you have, the higher body fat you can carry and still see and improve the appearance of that area. And also, by the way, when you have more muscle it kind of stretches out the skin and the fat in a way that is usually also aesthetically pleasing, even when you don't lose fat. That's why I'm a big fan of gaining and building muscle in certain periods.

Philip Pape: 35:38

All right, question number 25. Can you bulk without eating traditional carbs, eg just protein, eggs, milk, et cetera and will you still gain fat? So you're saying basically, low carb or no carb, kind of keto, carnivore, things like that. I would say I'm going to be open-minded here and say yes to both questions. You can gain muscle on a low carb or ketogenic diet, provided you have a calorie surplus and you have plenty of protein diet, provided you have a calorie surplus and you have plenty of protein. And there are some studies that show some comparable gains between lower carb and higher carb. But most show a gap where the higher carbs tend to allow you to produce or build more muscle. But there's always nuances in the variables. So again, that's why I'm always open-minded about this and think a flexible approach is warranted and not to just say, no, you can't have carbs at all, but for the vast majority of people, having more carbs is going to help you build more muscle and it just makes for a more flexible diet anyway more enjoyable diet for most people.

Philip Pape: 36:32

For fat gain you're going to gain fat if you're in a surplus, no matter what the macros are. So that has to do with energy balance period. Now, if you have more carbs while you're gaining weight, there is a chance that more of the energy surplus goes toward muscle and you'll actually gain less fat than if you were low carb. So that is true, but it still has to do with the surplus. It still comes down to proper training, protein timing, nutrient partition, strategies that can minimize fat while maximizing muscle, the way we've talked about before when we talk about at what rate to build and how to do it. So I think the bottom line is carbs can make bulking easier and more performance optimal, but they're not quote unquote mandatory.

Philip Pape: 37:11

All right, question number 26. Should bulking and cutting be saved for years, three plus of lifting or should you start sooner? I struggle with how to answer this because it's going to highly depend on the person and what they want to do. For some people, bulking and cutting can be a lot of fun when I work with clients because they have my help and they can lean to me when they hit plateaus and such. We will have a couple months at maintenance and then lean into a cutting phase or a bulking phase, depending on what they're going for. But that's also partly because they have my support. They have some accountability to fall back on, or those in our physique university same thing.

Philip Pape: 37:48

If you're doing it on your own, I still also think you can do it. I would say at the beginning it would be helpful to be at a slight, very tiny, tiny surplus to make sure you're fully recovered and find your new and true maintenance calories while you're training, to give yourself all the resources you need to train for strength in those first three to six months, and then I would go into a fat loss phase. Again, I have plenty of clients who never trained before they start training with me. We spend two months in maintenance and then go into fat loss and it just depends on what you're ready for how many calories you're able to eat, based on your metabolism, whether you are starting very lean or you have a lot of weight to lose, struggling to progress, et cetera. Right, some people don't like being in maintenance because it feels like they're not doing anything, and it takes its own form of psychological control, in which case even small bulk and cut cycles could be a good way to test the waters. So I would say no, it shouldn't be saved for three plus of lifting. I think that there's no should about it. It depends on what you want. I would say experiment and see how it goes and make sure you're in control and you're tracking your food and all of that, because otherwise it's actually going to be a lot harder.

Philip Pape: 38:58

All right, question 27. Why are people still afraid of fat, which I think you mean like fat consumption and what are the negative effects of avoiding it on recovery, strength and hormones? So we don't talk about fat as much as protein and carbs. And there was like decades of misguided dogma on fat, like the low fat craze of the eighties nineties. I grew up in the eighties so I saw a lot of that with the snack wells and the Olestra, disgusting like synthetic fat and all this stuff. Um, the move toward margarine instead of butter and all that which we know. There was like a back backlash in the other extreme, which always happens, but it's like very deeply imprinted in the public consciousness, despite it all being based on flawed research. Okay, consciousness, despite it all being based on flawed research.

Philip Pape: 39:41

There are consequences when you chronically avoid fat, predominantly to your hormone production, especially testosterone and estrogen. Also, fat helps you absorb fat-soluble vitamins A, d, e, k, so it's going to make that less efficient. It can impair your cell membrane function. It can make you more inflammatory. It can decrease your satiety. It could increase your consumption of sugar to compensate because of the lack of flavor, because you have no fat.

Philip Pape: 40:06

So for strength athletes like, having adequate fat, which is usually above a half gram per kilogram of body weight, let's say, is going to affect, or I should say having adequate fat is good for recovery and performance. Having adequate fat could start to eat into that. So if I have a client in a dieting phase, I never want them to go below like rock bottom. Probably 20 grams, maybe 15 grams if they're super lean and we're really pulling out all the stops Like that's rock bottom. But usually people are in the 20s and 30s at a minimum and sometimes often above or far beyond that. Dietary fats, monounsaturated omega-3s are great, but even some saturated fats in your diet are great and certain fats actually support what we call the inflammatory resolution process. That helps with training adaptation. I know it sounds weird, but you get an inflammatory response from training. Having adequate fats helps you get over the hump of that inflammation and come back to adapt back to a lower inflammation state. I don't know if I've ever talked about this on the show, but it's kind of an interesting mechanic that goes on. So the solution isn't like a high-fat diet or a keto, it's just a balanced approach. I like roughly 30% of calories from fat as a starting point and then you can go a little bit up or down depending on your preference.

Philip Pape: 41:25

All right, so we are going to wrap up with three final questions about mindset. So question 28,. What podcasts do you enjoy? All right, why is this under mindset? Because to me, the mind is also its own metaphorical muscle that needs to be flexed and grown, and I think learning and education is a massive part of that. So thank you for the question. So there are some I'll say longer fitness podcasts like Stronger by Science, iron Culture, revive, stronger, that I enjoy.

Philip Pape: 41:56

I listen to a few new news podcasts here and there, like the journal. I listened to economic podcasts like planet money and freakonomics. I've got some friends in the industry, like Jeff Hain, whose podcasts I follow. I like fun educational podcasts like how, um, what's it called? Oh, stuff, you should know that's what it's called. Let's see some other strength podcasts like starting strength, if you can take Mark Ripito's humor and political views. Barbell Logics podcast, which is called Beast Over Burden. I like Business Wars. I like Buzzcast. As a podcaster, conan O'Brien Needs a Friend is hilarious If you guys like Conan and his brand of humor. And then a few other business podcasts like creator, science and honestly, that is just the tip of the iceberg. I have a ton of podcasts in my queue.

Philip Pape: 42:45

I don't listen to every episode of every show. I am very selective, based on the content, the title. I do listen, sometimes at like 1.25 speed. I don't want to go faster than that or else I'll miss it. I like to listen while I walk, while I lift, and I get a lot of inspiration that way. The common thread to me is people who are kind of changing the mold, using mental models, developing frameworks, developing systems, evidence-based thinking. You know, if somebody gets too off the wall with the claims, I tend to unfollow them. But if there's a good story, if there's a great topic, if there's some really extensive research that's been done, I'm all over that, all right.

Philip Pape: 43:21

Question number 29. What is the biggest training myth that refuses to die? I think my biggest offender here is still the idea that women will get bulky from lifting weights, when in reality most people women, men need to work incredibly hard just to gain modest muscle. Trust me, I know from personal experience and I am a man and my testosterone level is just fine and I eat a lot of carbs and I do my bulks and still it's a struggle to really put on lots of muscle mass, because it's a time-based process that you have to just put effort into and not worry about getting bulky. Most women will benefit a lot from maybe not a huge surplus, but a little bit of a calorie surplus to build muscle for about six to nine months and just try it. Do it for me and report back and tell me how great it feels to get strong, to increase your lifts consistently, to have enough energy, sleep, to have better stress mitigation all of the things in a way that you've never experienced before. And then you also fill out your clothes more aesthetically and then, when you lose some fat after that, you all of a sudden look lean in tone, like you wanted in the first place, and not bulky. So that is the biggest training myth that refuses to die that I wanted to answer. Today I've got about 50 more in my back pocket, all right.

Philip Pape: 44:38

And the last question is what is the biggest nutrition myth that refuses to die? And the one I have to go with here is that any food is good or bad and you have to cut out foods to get your results. So many diets still today carnivore, keto, even intermittent fasting, to a sense are depriving yourself unnecessarily, and I want to give the power back to people listening to know that their meal timing, their frequency all of that is super flexible and what you eat is super flexible. As long as you bring in and add in the macronutrients and micronutrients that support you and your body and how you feel and perform, it's going to naturally work itself out and result in the balance and theents that support you and your body and how you feel and perform, it's going to naturally work itself out and result in the balance and the foods that you need and want. Don't listen to the fear mongering about seed oils or plants being toxic, or carbs, or chemicals or additives or artificial sweeteners or any of that, because if you are consuming 80, 90% whole, nutritious foods, your body easily handles whatever else you throw in it. You have a natural detoxification system there. That's. Another thing is detoxes, don't get me started, and you don't have to overthink it. Just track your food, become aware, add in sufficient protein and fiber and nutrients and you'll be golden. People get hung up so much on these diets and restricting themselves that they beat their head on a wall for years and years and years. You don't have to do that. Just track your food and shift it toward the things that your body needs.

Philip Pape: 46:09

All right, I don't want to make this episode much longer than it has to be. I got through the 30 questions for you guys. I hope you enjoy them. I picked the ones that were kind of more general, that that more more most people would be interested in. And as we close out episode 300, I want to thank you all again for being part of this journey. You know, unlike the 300 Spartans who met a terrible end at Thermopylae sorry for the spoiler If you haven't seen the movie or read history um, our battle here against fitness misinformation will continue, for I want to say forever? I hope not, but we are in this together. I have your support. You have my support. We are allies. We're not immortals, but we are intelligently trained listeners and lifters and we're going to fight on for hundreds more episodes to come.

Philip Pape: 46:53

Whether this is your first episode you've ever heard or you've been doing this for a while, the principles are all the same Progressive overload, adequate recovery, sufficient energy and food, an energy of balance appropriate to your goals. It's the basics, it's the foundations. Sleep, stress those are the foundations. Tracking and measuring the right things for awareness. The specifics, the methods of how you implement them are going to evolve as you progress and they're highly dependent on you and figuring out what works for you. That's what we do in my coaching program, whether it's one-on-one or the Physique University. That is what we do. There is help you discover what works for you. But the fundamentals endure and I'll leave it at that.

Philip Pape: 47:31

So if you enjoyed today's epic 30 Q&A episode, which they're not all like this, a lot of them are shorter. They're not all like this. A lot of them are shorter. They're very focused topics, but I thought this would be fun. If you have your own question, submit it at witsandweightscom slash question. You will get a personal reply from me and I'm going to feature your question on an episode, either a Q&A or as its own topic. I'll let you know and I'll give you a special shout out if you want it. That's witsandweightscom slash question, or click the link in the show notes. Until next time, keep using your wits lifting those weights and remember that your fitness journey is a lifelong campaign where victory comes through consistency, not a single heroic moment. This is Sparta. I mean, this is Philip Pape, and I'll talk to you next time here on the Wits and Weights podcast.

Your Macro Tracking App is Too "Dumb" for Real Fat Loss (or Muscle Gain) | Ep 299

Try MacroFactor for free with code WITSANDWEIGHTS.

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Meticulously tracking your food but still not seeing results? You're not alone—and it's probably not your fault. 

Most calorie tracking and food logging apps are fundamentally flawed, using static formulas that never adjust to your body's changing metabolism. 

When you sign up for MyFitnessPal, Lose It, or Chronometer, they calculate your calorie needs once and never revisit them, despite the fact that your metabolism constantly adapts to what you eat, how much you weigh, your activity levels, sleep quality, and stress.

This episode exposes why traditional tracking apps fail to deliver sustainable results and introduces the missing element: the feedback loop between what you eat and how your body responds. They are "dumb" apps, not "smart" apps.

Your metabolism isn't a fixed furnace burning the same amount of fuel day after day—it's a dynamic system that becomes more efficient during calorie restriction and changes as you lose or gain weight.

So use the right tool for the job if you want to lose fat and gain muscle!

Main Takeaways:

• Traditional apps like MyFitnessPal, LoseIt, and Cronometer rely on static formulas that don't adapt to your body's changing metabolism

• Your metabolism constantly shifts due to weight changes, activity levels, stress, sleep, and metabolic adaptation

• Food tracking itself is valuable for awareness, but without a feedback loop that dynamically adjusts your targets, you'll eventually hit plateaus

• Dynamic TDEE calculation analyzes the relationship between your actual calorie intake and weight changes to provide personalized recommendations

• A "smart" tracking system becomes more accurate over time as it learns about your unique metabolism

Episode Resources:

• Try MacroFactor for free with code WITSANDWEIGHTS.

• Watch my MacroFactor setup tutorial

Timestamps:

0:00 - Why most calorie tracking apps are failing you
3:05 - The problem with static TDEE calculations
6:18 - How your metabolism actually adapts over time
11:07 - Specific limitations of popular tracking apps
14:46 - Why you need dynamic "smart" TDEE calculation
21:14 - Implementing an effective tracking strategy
25:19 - How proper tracking changes your behavior
27:29 - Recap and recommendations

Why Your Food Tracking App Keeps Failing You

Have you ever tracked your food meticulously, staying under your calorie goals, only to see zero changes on the scale—or worse, see it move in the opposite direction? It's incredibly frustrating, demoralizing, and makes you wonder if your body is broken.

But guess what? It's probably not you; it's your calorie tracking app that's sabotaging your fat loss or muscle-building goals.

A Critical Flaw

The reason popular food tracking apps like MyFitnessPal, Lose It, and Cronometer aren't working for you boils down to one significant flaw: static calorie calculations. These apps rely on fixed formulas, usually based on the Mifflin-St Jeor equation, to determine your Total Daily Energy Expenditure (TDEE)—the calories your body burns daily.

The issue? Your metabolism isn't static—it's dynamic and adaptive. Here's what these apps typically overlook:

1. Metabolic Adaptation

Your metabolism changes as your calorie intake changes. Reduce your calories, and your body learns to burn fewer calories doing the same activities.

2. Body Weight Changes

As you lose weight, your body needs fewer calories to sustain itself, further decreasing your TDEE.

3. Daily Activity Fluctuations

Your daily activity can vary widely—one day you're hitting 10,000 steps, the next only 3,000. Your app doesn't automatically adapt.

4. Stress and Sleep

High stress and poor sleep quality significantly impact your metabolic rate, altering calorie expenditure.

5. Hormonal Cycles

For women, menstrual cycles can shift metabolism by up to 10%, a factor completely ignored by most static formulas.

Why Traditional Apps Just Aren't Smart Enough

When you sign up for an app, you input your age, weight, height, sex, and activity level. The app spits out a calorie goal and expects your complex biological system to fit neatly into this simplistic model. As a result, you're left hitting numbers that don't match your actual metabolic needs.

Even worse, apps like MyFitnessPal encourage eating back exercise calories, which are notoriously inaccurate and often lead to overeating.

What You Actually Need…

So, if static calculations are flawed, what's the alternative? The solution lies in dynamic tracking—a method that continuously adapts based on your real-time body data.

Think about it like a thermostat:

• A dumb thermostat keeps the temperature at a set point regardless of external factors.

• A smart thermostat adjusts based on current conditions, time of day, and user preferences.

Your tracking app needs the same "smart" technology—adjusting your calorie and macro targets based on your body's actual response.

The App We Recommend

At the moment, MacroFactor, created by the experts at Stronger by Science, is the only tracking app currently employing dynamic calculations. Here's how it differs:

• Real-Time Metabolism Tracking: MacroFactor continuously analyzes your calorie intake and weight changes, adjusting your calorie targets weekly.

• Adaptive Algorithms: It learns your body's response patterns over time, becoming more accurate the longer you use it.

• Eliminates Guesswork: Whether your metabolism speeds up or slows down, the app adapts, ensuring you're always at the right deficit or surplus.

Making Dynamic Tracking Work for You

To leverage dynamic tracking effectively:

• Consistent Logging: Track everything you eat daily, regardless of adherence.

• Daily Weigh-Ins: Track your weight daily to capture accurate trends and fluctuations.

• Avoid Manual Overrides: Trust the data-driven recommendations rather than adjusting based on perception.

• Give It Time: Expect meaningful adjustments after 3-4 weeks as the algorithm learns your body's specifics.

Empowering Your Fitness Journey

Tracking isn't obsessive—it's empowering. It provides awareness of your nutrition habits, shows you how your body responds, and equips you with the knowledge to make effective adjustments.

If you've been frustrated by lack of results, your current tracking app is likely the culprit. Switching to a dynamic, personalized approach with MacroFactor can eliminate the frustration and finally align your efforts with real, measurable results.

Remember, successful body composition change doesn't come from trying to fit into generic formulas—it comes from understanding and responding to your unique, dynamic metabolism.

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https://witsandweights.com/free-call

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Transcript

Philip Pape: 0:01

If you've been tracking your food religiously but your weight isn't budging, it's probably not your fault. Most calorie tracking apps use the same static formula, regardless of what's happening with your metabolism. They set a number once, or you have to set the number and never adjust it based on how your unique body responds. So today I'm exposing the critical flaw in nearly every popular food tracking app and showing you what actually works if you want sustainable fat loss or muscle gain, because, while tracking itself is valuable as a first step for awareness, most apps fail to close the loop, and once you understand this, you won't want to waste time with those apps ever again. Welcome to Wits and Weights, the show that helps you build a strong, healthy physique using evidence, engineering and efficiency. I'm your host, philip Pape, and today is one of my favorite topics. We are looking at an often overlooked aspect of successful body composition change how most food tracking apps are sabotaging your progress by using static formulas that ignore your body's real-time metabolism. This is a really important topic because if you are stuck, if you are frustrated and you're tracking your food, there could be a very good reason why. Here's the scenario you are logging everything you eat, you're weighing your food. You're using my fitness power lose it or chronometer you never go over your calorie goal but the scale's not budging. Or you're trying to gain muscle, but you can't seem to either get past a hard gaining plateau or you end up eating too much and you gain excess fat, and this is frustrating. It's demotivating, it makes you feel like your body's broken. But today you're going to learn why this isn't your fault. I will explain why most and I mean most, as in every single one except one food logging apps are based on static, unhelpful formulas how your metabolism actually adapts to what you eat and why a dynamic approach that uses your real data in the right way is the only reliable method to maintain consistent progress.

Philip Pape: 2:15

Food tracking itself is incredibly valuable for awareness. It is step one for most people, but without a system that creates the feedback loop between your intake and your results, you are flying blind with the wrong targets. So if you're trying to lose those last five or 10 stubborn pounds, try to lose a lot more than that in terms of fat loss. You're trying to build muscle but not gain too much fat, or you're just trying to optimize your nutrition and figure out what the heck do I eat for my calories and macros understanding why your app's calorie recommendations may be way off are going to change how you think about this, and you're going to have the secret decoder ring by the time this episode is done, and I encourage you to listen through the entire episode, because I'm actually going to talk about specific apps that you're probably familiar with and I'm going to share the solution that will actually figure this out for you.

Philip Pape: 3:05

All right, so I want to start with a fundamental issue that affects virtually every mainstream food tracking app on the market right now. Until times change in the future, this is the case right now, and the problem is simple. Most apps use a static, one-time calculation of your total daily energy expenditure, or TDEE. In fact, some apps don't even calculate that for you. For those unfamiliar, tdee represents the total calories you burn in a day. It is your metabolism, and it includes all the components of your metabolism your basal metabolic rate, which is the energy needed to keep you alive, calories burned by digesting food, your daily activity, both formal and informal, and everything you do.

Philip Pape: 3:47

And when you first sign up for an app like MyFitnessPal, lose it Chronometer and yes, I am naming names so that you know why these apps cannot cut it for what you're trying to achieve. When you sign up, they ask you some questions your age, your height, your weight, your sex, your activity level, your weight loss goal things like that which most apps are going to ask. Some don't even ask that and then they plug the values into a formula it's typically the Mifflin-St Jor equation or something similar and then it spits out a calorie target and then this becomes your daily goal. The app then expects you to consistently lose weight if you stick to the goal. But the fatal flaw is that these estimates, these calculations, are the exact kind you can get when you plug your information into an online calculator. I even have one on my website, and they're based on the average of the population and wildly inaccurate self-assessments of activity level. And yeah, they're the best we can do as far as an average, but they could be way off from your real metabolism up to 400 calories in either direction, and that's assuming you even give it the most accurate information for you. For example, the activity level is highly subjective. What does that mean? And even worse, the targets just remain fixed unless you manually update the information, so the apps don't automatically adjust based on what's actually happening with your body and what your eating patterns are.

Philip Pape: 5:08

So think about this have you ever been diligently tracking your calories and trying to stay under certain targets? Let's say you're trying to lose weight, lose fat, and it just doesn't happen. You just stay there, stay there, stay. Maybe you start gaining weight and it just seems like a mystery and you think, okay, it's me, it's my metabolism, and the app keeps telling you you should be losing weight and you're hitting the targets and maybe maybe you missed the target by five calories or two grams of protein. And then it gives you a big red number and it shames you for it. Right. And then your reality tells a different story from what the app says it should be and this creates a disconnect that is really harmful. It is really harmful for lots of things for body image, for your psychological state.

Philip Pape: 5:49

Through this process, you get to the point where you think tracking is a terrible tool, or it's obsessive or it's not helpful. To be clear, tracking your food is still a valuable practice. Even if you just track stuff on a piece of paper old school, and saw how much and what you eat, it's going to create awareness of the amounts, how much protein problem areas. Are you getting enough fiber? All of that stuff and that gives you data to work with for sure. It is extremely important.

Philip Pape: 6:18

The issue is not with the tracking itself. It's how most apps fail to create the feedback loop between what you track and what actually happens with your body. And again, I made this episode and I'm hoping to be able to share this with anybody in the future who wonders about the apps or anybody who says, well, I use chronometer, so I'm good, it should work. Right? No, it's not gonna work. And to understand why? To understand why these static calculations fail, we have to appreciate how adaptive and responsive our metabolism truly is. Your metabolism is not this fixed furnace burning the same amount of fuel day after day. Right, it's a dynamic system and it's adjusting to many, many, many things.

Philip Pape: 7:02

It adjusts your calorie intake first and foremost. That is probably the biggest factor. People don't realize this. The amount you're eating and whether you are losing or gaining weight are the top two. So number one the amount you're eating. When you reduce calories, your body becomes more efficient. It's going to burn fewer calories to perform the same function. This is an adaptation that occurs because you are starving of resources. And the opposite happens when you eat a lot more, your body actually ramps up. That's the big one. The second factor is weight loss. As you lose weight you have less mass to maintain, so your calorie needs naturally decrease. So you've kind of got this double whammy Adaptation combined with being lighter on the scale, because, just simple math, 180-pound person's gonna burn more calories at rest than 160 pound person with otherwise identical stats, not even counting muscle mass here we're just talking short term.

Philip Pape: 7:48

Number three is your activity level. You know your activity varies every day, just unconsciously, in terms of your steps. Some days you might walk 12,000 steps, other days barely 3000. Some days you might do cardio, some days you lift. They go all over the place. Sometimes you're doing too much cardio and that causes a negative adaptation or you burn fewer calories. It's highly subjective to that. The number fourth factor and these are really two factors, but I like to combine them as stress and sleep Sleep deprivation, poor sleep, restless sleep and or high stress, chronic stress can absolutely alter your hormone balance and your metabolism and they change how efficiently your body uses energy.

Philip Pape: 8:27

And so when you don't get enough sleep, you burn fewer calories. When your cortisol is all over the place. Because of your stress, you burn fewer calories. And then the last factor here is for women their hormonal changes throughout the month because of the menstrual cycle can also affect your metabolic rate by as much as five to 10%. It's not nothing. And even if you don't account for that, you still have all these other factors that cause your metabolism to fluctuate. So these create a constantly shifting energy expenditure that a static formula can't capture. Even if it's accurate for you on one day, it can be off by 600 calories two months from now. That's how bad it is.

Philip Pape: 9:04

And the problem is the traditional apps do exactly that. They provide a fixed target based on this fixed assumption and they expect that your complex biological system is going to conform to their mathematical model in some magical way. Or they make it even worse by having you input your activity or connect to your wearable, and they count back the calories from activity, which makes it even worse. I'll just give you a real world example that I see all the time with clients. I see it with myself in a fat loss phase. When someone starts a fat loss phase, they might have a TDEE of 2,500 calories that's your maintenance calories but after you lose, say, 10 pounds over a couple months, the TDEE could have dropped to 2,200 calories. Could have dropped by 300 or 400 or 500 calories. I've seen big drops because of the reduced body mass and the metabolic adaptation. And so if your deficit was 500 calories because you wanted to lose a pound a week, well, now you're actually in a lower deficit. You're only in a 200 calorie deficit because you didn't change your calories, but your body's burning fewer calories and so your weight loss is going to slow. By what? 60%? And these apps never tell you this is happening. You just don't know.

Philip Pape: 10:13

It keeps recommending the same target or maybe says, hey, what do you want your targets to be, despite clear evidence that your body's adapted right, which the evidence is that you stop losing weight. But then it's frustrating because you're saying, well, the app says I should be so, now something's wrong. And so you get frustrated, even if you're perfectly adhering, and the same issue occurs in the opposite direction. I'm not going to pay too much attention to that here today. I want to focus more on fat loss. But same thing If your app tells you you've got to eat 3,000 calories for a lean bulking phase, but your TDEE is less, you're going to gain a lot faster or, on the flip side, if it's more, you're going to hard gain and so it's even more precise in muscle gain in terms of the data that you need about yourself, because it's a little bit more sensitive up there. So, without this feedback loop that connects your intake to your results, you are just navigating with a broken compass. That is it.

Philip Pape: 11:07

So let's look at the actual most popular tracking apps that are on the market today and how their flawed methodology impacts your results, because I have to be honest, I don't like them. I think they are harmful. Not only do I think they're not helpful, I think they are harmful If your goal is to use the data to then accurately change your behaviors to get the goal you want. If your goal is strictly to log your food for awareness and that's it fine, they're adequate. But for any more than that which, if you're listening to the show, your goal is to improve your body composition these apps will not do them, period. And I want to be crystal clear I don't care about the cost, I don't care about the features, none of that. They just don't do it.

Philip Pape: 11:46

Let's start with the big one MyFitnessPal. Myfitnesspal it has a huge food database. Of course, a lot of it's inaccurate because they're user entered, but let's put that aside. The calorie calculations are problematic because the app asks you for your information when you set up and it never revisits it. It just doesn't consider how your metabolism changes, like we talked about, and then it separates exercise calories from your baseline metabolism, which is even worse, in my opinion. When you log a workout, it adds those calories to your daily budget, which encourages you to eat them back. This is dangerous. This is unhelpful and harmful, physically and psychologically, right? Number one, because exercise calorie estimates are just completely wrong. They're inaccurate. They're often off by 30 to 50%. Number two it doesn't account for how your body compensates for exercise, which is gonna happen and also the hunger that ramps up. And then it treats exercise as completely separate from your energy expenditure, rather than just one of many components of it. Remember, your metabolism is complex. It's comprised of lots of things. Activity is just one tiny thing and, by the way, exercise comprises maybe 5% of your metabolism. So that's MyFitnessPal.

Philip Pape: 12:55

Then we get to Lose it, which is similar to MyFitnessPal. It uses a static TDEE calculation based on your user-reported activity level. It tells you go ahead and select a weight loss rate and then it gives you a fixed target to supposedly achieve the rate, but it doesn't adjust it. If you're eating exactly what it recommends but you're losing weight slower than expected, the app doesn't say oh, this might not be a big enough deficit for, or it might not be low enough calories for you. It just doesn't recognize that. That's a discrepancy. It's dumb Effectively, in my title the word dumb here means lacks intelligence, lacks smarts to do anything helpful. And then you're left wondering why you're not hitting your targets, despite even perfect compliance. And then we have chronometer. Everybody loves chronometer because it has this awesome micronutrient tracking. Fine, it still relies on static formulas like Mifflin, st Jor. You manually set your activity level. The app does not adjust your calorie targets based on real time weight changes or intake real-time weight changes or intake and so even when you update your weight, it just recalculates using the same formula rather than analyzing the relationship between intake and changes in weight.

Philip Pape: 14:01

We have a couple other apps out there that people like to mention. One is FatSecret, the other is HealthifyMe, and same limitations one-time calculations, they don't adapt, they require manual updates, they don't incorporate feedback loops from real world data, and so the pattern across these is clear. I mean, that's the extent of the details I want to get into, because this is not a feature comparison episode. This is calling out the one thing missing from every single app on the market, except one we're going to get to in a second. They rely on a theoretical calorie need rather than your body, so they're good for awareness of what you're eating, but they don't close the loop, so it's good for a few weeks and after that, useless, in my opinion, again, other than just awareness of what you're eating, and that is the key difference between failure and success.

Philip Pape: 14:46

So we've established that you don't just need a static calculation. What do you need instead? Well, you need a dynamic calculation, an approach that refines your energy expender estimate based on what's happening with your body. So think of that as the difference between dumb and smart technology. A dumb thermostat stays at the temperature you set it right, and that's how thermostats were for decades. A smart thermostat will learn your preference, they'll adapt to changing conditions. They might even have a schedule, and they'll adjust to the current temperature, time of day and so on to maintain optimal comfort. Traditional tracking apps are like dumb thermostats they set a target and they never adapt. What we need is a smart tracking app that closes the feedback loop between the intake and the results, between the intake and the results.

Philip Pape: 15:34

So what would that look like? Well, first, it would analyze the relationship between what you eat that's, your calorie intake and how your weight changes. Think about it your body is like a closed loop energy system. You take an energy in the form of food, you expend it in the form of lots of things movement, digestion, training and, as a result of what you do and just how you are, your body burns a certain amount of calories, and that causes your weight to either go up or down, based on how much energy you need to store, based on the net difference of energy. That's it. That's the first thing. The second thing it should do is create an algorithm based on your response. So not only should it take the data and estimate your expenditure, it should also look at it over time and take your history to even better estimate your expenditure. The third thing it should do is then give you targets based on that data. Sounds simple, right? Here's your calories and macros. The calories are what you need to be in the deficit. You want to lose the fat that you want at the rate you want. That's what's missing from the other apps. And then it should also become more accurate the longer you use it, as it collects data Like, for example, as you're gaining muscle, as you're gaining weight to build muscle, it can tell the ratio of muscle to fat based on how fast you're gaining, and then it can adjust for that.

Philip Pape: 16:48

So what app does this? If you follow this show for any length of time, you know what app it is. It's called Macrofactor, all in word, created by the guys at Stronger by Science. I'm a firm believer in this app because the only tool it's kind of like a barbell it is the best tool and the only tool for the job out there to do this as effectively as possible. The only alternative would be to do it on your own in a spreadsheet, which, if you want to, if you nerd out on it, if you can come up with a decent algorithm, go for it. I would rather take years and years of the smartest guys in evidence-based training, nutrition and science, who have analyzed both the physiological side as well as the statistical and algorithmic side, and put it into an app.

Philip Pape: 17:27

So, macro factor, all one word. And here's how it works. It doesn't just ask you to pick an activity level and enter your data. You do that initially. It gives you initial estimate, like every other app, but then the magic starts, because it looks at what happens when you eat a certain amount of food over time to your weight. How does your weight respond to your food? And so it is kind of like having an old style macro coach right, the old old nutrition coaches that calculated macros for you and I've talked about this before in negative terms, in that we don't need them anymore. You've got apps and you've got AI and everything else that can do that for you. That's easy. What you need a coach for is the human part, the psychological part, the supporting accountability. We're not going to get into that. I talked about that recently in a bonus episode.

Philip Pape: 18:12

But macro factor is like an old school macro coach who's just looking at how your weight changes and saying, okay, you're, you're starting to plateau. That means your deficit is smaller than we thought and therefore you're not burning as many calories, so we're going to give you lower calories. That's it. It adjusts up and down as your expenditure changes. So a concrete example of how this works in practice let's say, you begin tracking at what you believe is a 500 calorie a day deficit to lose a pound a week and after two weeks the app set notices that you've only lost a half a pound. Now again, this is over time based on averages. It's not going to do this very quickly, day to day and over respond. It's going to look at your trends over two, three, four weeks but it's saying okay, you're really only losing half a pound over the past few weeks, should be losing a pound, and a traditional app like MyFitnessPal would have no clue, just keep giving you the same deficit until you change it. But Macrofactor will recognize that your TDEE is actually lower than it thought and now it will adjust your intake to reach your fat loss desired rate of loss. And then it's going to update the calories and macros when you quote, unquote, check in with the app. So you check in weekly, usually on a Monday.

Philip Pape: 19:22

That's the default and the formula now no longer matters. The estimate, the initial estimate, no longer matters. What matters is you, your body, and the beauty of this approach is it works regardless of whether your metabolism is faster or slower, whether you've eaten more or less, whether you're hitting the targets or not, it's going to work. And if you are someone who naturally burns way more calories, it's going to detect this, and vice versa If your metabolism is slower, it's going to adjust downward accordingly. And so if you've been stuck trying to lose weight for years and years, or maybe you're peri-post-menopause, maybe you're an older dude who's just been stuck trying all the diets, this could be what you're missing Just an understanding of your metabolism, an approach that adapts as you are trying to change your body, because those things are cyclical.

Philip Pape: 20:05

As you change, your metabolism changes, but then you need to change again in terms of your eating habits, and so the app detects these changes and then adjust your targets. It seems simple, but I'm surprised that no other app does this, and it works in fat loss, maintenance or muscle gain. In fact, macrofactor has some pretty sophisticated algorithms for muscle gain. If you're trying to gain weight, it's going to give you a target, but then, if you go faster or slower than it expects, it doesn't just adjust the target blindly. It actually estimates a ratio of muscle and fat to determine how fast you need to go to gain at the rate you want to gain. It's pretty cool. So that's really all I have to say about dynamic calculation. I mean, it's again. It sounds simple Take what you eat and how your weight changes and calculate the number.

Philip Pape: 20:48

If you try to do this yourself, it's actually pretty sophisticated, because what if you're going from a bulk to a cut? What if you're sick or injured and your metabolism changes drastically? What if you have a period, your period and your cycle changes? There's a lot of reasons our expenditure can change. The app is not going to overcorrect. If you try to do this on your own, you're going to find out that there's all these little scenarios that are kind of difficult to deal with and you're going to have to update your algorithm, and so it gets more and more sophisticated.

Philip Pape: 21:14

So if you want an effective tracking strategy and this is not just tracking, this is tracking and the right targets, first you've got to select the right tool for the job. If you want to get super strong, you're probably going to select a barbell or at least some effective machines. So in this case, you want an app that uses a dynamic calculation period. Right now on the market, macrofactor is the only app that does this, and its algorithm is amazing, and they talk about it openly and transparently and they're constantly improving it. So it's going to improve every week. It's going to adjust your metabolism and give you the right targets.

Philip Pape: 21:46

Number two you've got to be consistent with your logging. So this isn't all just the app doing the job right. You don't just start using the app and, oh, I lose weight. No, of course you have to have accurate data. You want to log what you eat every day, whether you go over your target or not. So I have clients who, early on, they'll say, oh, I didn't track for a week because I got sick. And my response is well, assuming the tracking itself isn't stressful and it only takes like two minutes a day to track when you get used to it especially macro factor Cause it's so fast Keep tracking Even when you're sick again, if it doesn't make it worse. But again, for most people it's an easy, quick thing. And what's nice about tracking no matter what happens whether you're over or under your targets, not eating doesn't matter is it will have precision and accuracy to show you what happens to your body in those times. I actually want you to track in the times that are off plan. So quote, unquote, so we can see what happens to your expenditure in those times. You could adjust accordingly and you get honest data to create that feedback loop so that you have confidence on how much to eat, what to eat and when.

Philip Pape: 22:49

You also have to weigh yourself consistently. So I've talked before about how weighing every day is associated with success and maintaining your results. It is not associated with obsessiveness, because when you weigh every day, you can see the natural fluctuations caused by things that have nothing to do with fat. Weigh every day, you can see the natural fluctuations caused by things that have nothing to do with fat, and then you have to take a trend of that over time. So, like macro factor uses a 20 day exponential moving average, you don't have to understand what that means, but if you think of the 20 days, that's about three weeks. That means fat gain, fat loss, is really only estimated with any precision after about three weeks of data. The next thing is you have to understand that there are lots of things other than fat that will cause your weight to change. So, again tying into the comment I just made about daily weight tracking, we have water retention, sodium intake, carbohydrate levels, hormonal cycles, inflammation from training. Again, what matters is the trend over weeks.

Philip Pape: 23:44

The next thing is you don't want to manually override the calculations. So this is another problem I see is that some people will say, well, it says the expenditure is lower than I like, or I don't think my expenditure is that low and you're like tempted to manually change it. Well, once you've been using the app for I'll say, three or four weeks maybe as little as two, but usually three or four weeks of daily food tracking where you log everything you can't do partial days or it'll think you ate less and daily weighing it's going to have a pretty darn accurate assessment of your expenditure and if it's lower than you like, that's a reality you have to face. But that's a great thing because it's empowering data and it could explain why you've been stuck trying to lose weight or fat all these years, and then you could decide what to do about it. You also have to give these things time. I've mentioned this a couple of times.

Philip Pape: 24:30

Dynamic calculation is going to become more accurate the longer you use it. So the first few weeks you almost can't trust anything because you don't have enough precision, but by, say, four to six weeks, the algorithm is highly personalized and then, of course, course, you would use this as a learning tool. That is really my last comment on this is it's not just hitting targets which, by the way, macro factor doesn't judge you on whether you're over or under, it doesn't color code things, it's completely adherence neutral. It's very nice, it's very good for the psychological aspect, but beyond just hitting targets, you can pay attention to how different foods affect your hunger, your energy, your performance and, yes, your expenditure, and tie it all together right. The goal isn't just to comply to numbers. The goal is really to understand your body's unique response to what you do, what you eat, and then adjust accordingly.

Philip Pape: 25:19

And that's why, as a coach, I really love that my clients use it, because we get far more precise and insightful data than a traditional macro meal plan coach would ever have. And then I can go to that next level of being a detective and helping you understand why the data is doing what it's doing. And that eliminates guesswork. It eliminates the frustration from using MyFitnessPal, tracking your food and not knowing why you're not getting the result. Instead of wondering and being constantly frustrated, you're going to have a system that reflects your body's reality and creates a continuous feedback loop, and that's how we make progress in life, in fitness, in nutrition, everything the cool thing about tracking in general so just to throw a bone to any of these apps where you've decided to track your food and you weren't before is it will start to change your behavior, sometimes in ways you don't notice.

Philip Pape: 26:08

Research shows that people who track their food just track tend to move more throughout the day. They tend to make slightly better food choices, even when they're not consciously trying to. It's why I love having my clients track from day one, so that they start to change their own behavior. Listen, I have clients reach out to me in the first few weeks and they're like I just noticed this, so I changed this. I just noticed I didn't have no protein, so I did this. I'm not even telling them to do this stuff Right, and that's great, because a lot of this is on you, and I don't mean that in a bad way.

Philip Pape: 26:35

I mean you've got the power. It's you've. You take the action. But it really helps to have someone looking over your shoulder to understand why the data is doing what it's doing, so you can take the right actions. And then you take this to the next level not just track your food, but track your expenditure so that you can measure your actual response to food while you're tracking. It's really a profound shift in thinking. It's from trying to conform to what you think is how many calories you're burning, based on a formula, to actually observing and working with what your metabolism is doing. And if you went back 10 years before Macrofactor existed, the way someone would tell you to do this is to manually track your food and manually track your weight and kind of guess and eyeball how your weight is changing to your food. But it's very rough, it's very imprecise, and so that's why I recommend Macrofactor, which then gives you not a dumb tracking app but a smart system that closes the loop.

Philip Pape: 27:29

So anyway, we've covered a lot of ground today and just to bring it all together, the traditional apps my fitness pal lose it chronometer. They have static metabolism formulas that remain fixed regardless of how your body responds. So don't tell me when I suggest using macro factor. Oh no, I don't need to do that, I already use chronometer, it's free, Like, okay, well, you're, you're tracking food and that's it. You're not going to get the result you want without knowing what's actually happening in your body Period. They ignore metabolic adaptation, they fail to account for how your weight changes. They fail to account for energy changes and exercise changes and all of that. They're dumb in a world where you need smart. So even if you've been following your app's recommendations but you're not seeing the results, it's not because you are doing something wrong. It's because you have the wrong targets. So if you want to experience a difference and this is what the only little sales pitch I'm going to make here is to go ahead and try macro factor for free for two weeks. Link is in the show notes. Use my code wits and weights all one word.

Philip Pape: 28:25

I personally have used the app since the day it came out. All my clients, everyone in Physique University, use the app. It is highly empowering. It's going to change your life. It is a paid app and yet what you get for it is worth multiples upon multiples of the cost. I think it's still $71.99 for a year. Now, that's in US dollars. But try it for free using the code witsandweights all one word. Link is in the show notes.

Philip Pape: 28:48

I also have a step-by-step YouTube video that shows you how to set it up properly to find your true maintenance calories the first time. So I'm going to include links to both in the show notes. Grab the app, try it out. You've got two weeks to try it out. If you don't like it, no risk, don't use it and watch my video on setting it up and you're going to be good, you're going to be awesome. Then you're going to be reaching out saying, okay, cool, now I see what you were talking about.

Philip Pape: 29:11

Now I understand my true targets. Now I need to put this into the next level, combining it with my training, with my meal timing, making sure it works for me, with my biofeedback and my energy, and really get the fat loss that I'm going for. But step one is to start tracking your food and weight using Macrofactor. Use my code, wits and Weights, Get the link in the show notes and watch the video. All right, until next time, keep using your wits, lifting those weights and remember successful body composition change, fat loss, muscle gain, whatever it is, comes from understanding how your unique metabolism is changing, not trying to conform to a generic, static, unchanging formula. This is Philip Pape and you've been listening to Wits and Weights. I'll talk to you next time.

Does Cycle Syncing Your Workouts & Nutrition Actually Work? (Jillian Greaves) | Ep 298

Download my new Strength Training for Hormone Health guide to optimize hormones, boost your metabolism, and maintain muscle mass for life.

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Does your menstrual cycle impact how you should train and eat? Or is "cycle syncing" another wellness trend designed to sell programs?

Dietitian Jillian Greaves and I cut through the cycle syncing hype - what works, what's just marketing hype, and how to support your body throughout your cycle. We break down the science behind hormonal fluctuations and discuss carbs, fasting, birth control, practical training adjustments, and one-size-fits-all protocols. No fluff, just facts.

Jillian is a functional medicine dietitian and women’s health expert specializing in hormonal health, PCOS, and cycle-based nutrition. With a Master’s in Public Health from Tufts University, she has helped thousands of women optimize their health through personalized nutrition and lifestyle changes.

Today, you’ll learn all about:

02:28 - Why cycle syncing can backfire when taken too far
04:15 - The 4 phases of the menstrual cycle and how hormones fluctuate
07:04 - Why some women feel stronger during their period
13:21 - The impact of carbs on female metabolism and stress resilience
19:13 - The problem with chronic low-carb diets for women
24:20 - Why the luteal phase may require more recovery
30:32 - How to adjust your training and nutrition based on real biofeedback
41:25 - The truth about birth control and why it’s overprescribed
47:02 - Rapid-fire Q & A
52:01 - Outro

Episode resources:

• Website: jilliangreaves.com 

• Instagram: @jilliangreavesrd 
  

Does Cycle Syncing Work?

The idea of cycle syncing—adjusting your workouts and nutrition based on the phases of your menstrual cycle—has gained popularity in the fitness world. Some claim it’s the key to unlocking better performance, faster recovery, and balanced hormones, while others dismiss it as a trendy marketing gimmick. So, what does the science actually say?

If you’ve ever wondered whether cycle syncing is worth the effort or just another way to overcomplicate your training and nutrition, keep reading.

The Science of Cycle Syncing

At its core, cycle syncing is about making supportive adjustments to training and diet based on hormonal fluctuations. Women’s physiology does change throughout the menstrual cycle, and being aware of these shifts can help optimize performance and recovery.

However, the way cycle syncing is often presented on social media has turned it into an overly rigid system, with recommendations that can get absurdly detailed—like eating specific types of nuts or lettuce on certain days of your cycle. There’s no scientific evidence supporting these ultra-specific food prescriptions. The reality is that small tweaks can be helpful, but cycle syncing shouldn’t be seen as a strict rulebook that dictates every meal or workout.

How Your Hormones Fluctuate Throughout the Menstrual Cycle

To understand cycle syncing, let’s break down the four phases of the menstrual cycle and how they impact energy levels, recovery, and nutrition needs.

Menstrual Phase (Days 1-5, Approx.)

• Hormone levels (estrogen and progesterone) are at their lowest.

• Immunity is higher, inflammation is lower, and recovery is generally good.

• Strength and force production may be slightly higher, meaning it could be a good time to push harder in training—if energy levels allow.

• Some women feel great during this phase, while others may need more rest.

Follicular Phase (Days 6-14, Approx.)

• Estrogen starts rising, leading to increased energy and improved muscle recovery.

• Insulin sensitivity is higher, making it easier for the body to use glucose.

• Strength training and high-intensity workouts may feel more effective.

• Carbohydrate intake can be increased, especially around workouts, to optimize performance.

Ovulatory Phase (Around Day 14-16)

• Estrogen peaks, followed by a sharp increase in luteinizing hormone, triggering ovulation.

• This can be a period of peak energy and performance for many women.

• Some women experience increased joint laxity, so paying attention to form and recovery is key.

Luteal Phase (Days 15-28, Approx.)

• Estrogen and progesterone are at their highest, leading to increased inflammation and lower stress resilience.

• Progesterone has a catabolic effect, meaning muscle breakdown may be slightly higher.

• Blood sugar regulation shifts, making some women feel more fatigued or experience cravings.

• Energy expenditure increases slightly (2-10%), meaning the body may require more calories.

• Many women feel less motivated to train intensely, making it a good time for lower-impact strength work, steady-state cardio, or mobility work.

Practical Takeaways for Strength Training and Nutrition

If cycle syncing has any real value, it’s in teaching women to listen to their bodies rather than blindly following an inflexible program. Here’s how to make practical adjustments based on your cycle:

• Training Adjustments:

  • Use the follicular and ovulatory phases to push heavier training and higher-intensity work.

  • In the luteal phase, prioritize recovery, technique, and moderate loads rather than forcing PRs.

  • If you feel great during your period, take advantage of it! If not, listen to your body and adjust.

• Nutrition Adjustments:

  • Ensure adequate protein and carb intake throughout your cycle to support performance and recovery.

  • Consider increasing carb intake during the follicular phase when insulin sensitivity is higher.

  • Slightly increase total calorie intake in the luteal phase if hunger rises, focusing on protein and healthy fats for satiety.

  • Avoid extreme low-carb diets, which can disrupt hormonal balance and stress the body unnecessarily.

Common Myths About Cycle Syncing

1. You must completely change your workout plan based on your cycle

   • Reality: While small tweaks can be helpful, your program should be built around long-term progressive overload, not week-to-week changes.

2. You need to eat specific foods at specific times in your cycle

   • Reality: There’s no evidence that eating certain foods on particular days balances hormones. What matters is overall diet quality.

3. Luteal-phase training is ineffective

   • Reality: While you may not feel as strong, you can still train effectively. Adjust intensity if needed, but don’t stop lifting altogether.

4. Fast-tracking fat loss or muscle gain requires cycle syncing

   • Reality: The fundamentals of fat loss (caloric balance) and muscle gain (progressive overload + sufficient nutrition) are far more important than cycle timing.

Final Thoughts

Cycle syncing can be a useful framework for understanding how your body responds throughout the month, but it shouldn’t dictate every decision. The most important thing is to get the fundamentals right—eating enough, training consistently, sleeping well, and managing stress. Once those are in place, you can fine-tune based on personal experience.

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Transcript

Philip Pape: 0:01

The fitness industry wants you to believe, you need to completely overhaul your training and nutrition based on where you are in your menstrual cycle. But what if this trendy approach is actually working against your goals? Today, I've invited on expert dietician Jillian Greaves to reveal what the science really says about hormones and exercise. Learn why rigid cycle-based protocols often backfire, discover the actual signs your body needs adjustments and get practical tips to optimize your training based on your cycle, without unnecessary restrictions. Welcome to wits and weights, the show that helps you build a strong, healthy physique using evidence, engineering and efficiency.

Philip Pape: 0:48

I'm your host, philip Pape, and today I'm discussing cycle syncing with Jillian Greaves. Now, jillian is a functional medicine, dietitian and women's health specialist. She's helped thousands of women address their hormonal health through personalized nutrition and lifestyle interventions. She earned her master's in public health from Tufts University and has extensive clinical experience at institutions like the USDA Human Nutrition Research Center on Aging. Today, you're going to learn why many standard cycle-based protocols often don't work, what your symptoms actually reveal about your body's needs and how to personalize your approach. That's what we're all about personalizing your approach while respecting your unique physiology.

Philip Pape: 1:28

Jillian, thank you so much for coming on the show. Thank you for having me Excited to be here, and this is an exciting topic because there's a lot of misinformation about it and I know we're going to clear that up today and people are going to be super crystal clear on what to do People as in women, but you know what Men listening to this or coaches. It's really good information to understand, because hormones in general are kind of a muddy topic. So the question I have for you, just to right out of the gate does it work? Does cycle syncing syncing your training and or nutrition to the menstrual cycle work, or is it marketing to sell programs?

Stephanie: 2:04

It is both.

Jillian Greaves: 2:04

In my opinion, like all things, there's always so much nuance right, and the way that I define cycle syncing in a general sense is ultimately making supportive adjustments to your nutrition, your lifestyle, throughout your cycle to kind of support fluctuating hormones. As females, particularly women of reproductive age, our physiology does change as hormones fluctuate throughout the cycle and there are definitely shifts that we can make and things that we can be aware of, to better support and adapt to these changes. On the other end of the spectrum, when we're talking about, you know, is it real, isn't it real? You know, social media has, you know, kind of blown up in terms of talking about a lot of different things, but with cycle syncing in particular, I've seen so much talk about it in recent years and I think this is where things get a little bit murky or muddy.

Jillian Greaves: 3:01

Where on, you know, in the online health space, cycle syncing has essentially turned into like this rigid diet or this plan that you know women are trying to follow to a T, and I think an even bigger problem I'm seeing is that women are getting so zoomed in on like micro strategies with food, with adjusting their training, that we kind of miss the forest for the trees, and I see people on social media recommending you switch up the type of lettuce or the type of nuts that you're eating based on the day of your cycle that you're on, and ultimately, we really just miss the mark when it comes to actually supporting the things that can make a difference with our training and with how we're feeling.

Jillian Greaves: 3:47

And while the body does mobilize nutrients differently across the phases of the menstrual cycle, we have no data supporting that these ultra-specific microfood interventions and eating this type of lettuce on day 19 and this type of lettuce on day 25 is going to balance your hormones. It's just again we miss the forest for the trees and that's really not what cycle syncing is at the end of the day.

Philip Pape: 4:12

Cool, that's a great answer. And this obsession with these micro strategies, or the 1%, I call them as well, it's a general thing, right? Because I guess the logic that I would apply is men or women, when you are in any one particular state, like a given week of your life, can you, at that level of detail, optimize perfectly for these things? Or is it highly personal and it's really going to take a lot of experimentation and understanding? You know? You know, I mean, we're kind of leading where we're going here.

Philip Pape: 4:38

But so then try to now break it up into what Nikki Sims, who was just on the show from Barbell Logic. She calls her four personas of the month. Right, like, she's like four different people for the month, yep, and now trying to do it for four different people every month for yourself, it's even going to exacerbate the error. Let's call it yes. So you mentioned supportive adjustments and that physiology does change. So let's dig into the science or the reality of basic hormone physiology, maybe in general, and then also throughout the menstrual cycle, because some people are just confused in general about this stuff. But let's break it down. We can talk about the phases, you can talk about how things change in reality.

Jillian Greaves: 5:15

Yeah. So let's break down kind of the four phases of the menstrual cycle and then we can kind of get into talking about actually what's shifting, what's happening and what we can proactively do to support the body. So in terms of the four phases of the menstrual cycle, we have our menstruation phase, which is technically our leading phase, where we're on our period, and this is a period of time where overall hormone levels are at their lowest, at their very lowest throughout the cycle. From there we enter the follicular phase and this is a period of time where estrogen levels are on the rise. So the body is essentially maturing follicles and the secretion of estrogen is increasing throughout the follicular phase. We then enter the ovulatory phase. That's where estrogen kind of hits a peak and this is part of what's going to stimulate ovulation or the release of an egg.

Jillian Greaves: 6:14

Moving on from the ovulatory phase, we then enter the luteal phase. So this is a period of time in the menstrual cycle where both estrogen and the hormone progesterone are kind of at their highest, so the overall hormone load in the body is higher at this time. The luteal phase is typically about a two-week stretch of time and the luteal phase will either end in your period or pregnancy. Those are the only two options. And then we enter the menstruation phase or that bleeding phase again and kind of start that cycle over when it comes to kind of specifically like what's shifting with our physiology, what's happening as these hormones are ebbing and flowing throughout the cycle. So, starting with the menstruation phase or that phase of time where overall hormone levels are at their lowest menstruation phase or that phase of time where overall hormone levels are at their lowest this is actually a period of time where our immunity is a little bit higher, inflammation is a bit lower and recovery is actually generally pretty good. Endorphins are higher at this period of time and studies have actually found that strength and force production is higher. Vo2 max is increased. So, like, how much? You know how much and how well your you know your body is using oxygen during exercise. So women across the board actually do experience, or can experience, more strength gains in their menstrual phase, which might be a little counterintuitive based on some of the information online, but ultimately that lower hormone load leads to increased resilience in the body. So if someone is feeling really good, that can be a time to challenge yourself from a workout performance perspective.

Jillian Greaves: 8:04

That being said, a lot of women aren't feeling their best, you know, during their period, in that menstrual bleeding phase, in which case, you know, we always want to respond to that, listen to that and lean into more rest, if that's what the body is asking for, with then entering the follicular phase again. This is where estrogen is increasing. Estrogen is on the rise and this is a period of time I will say generally and I know we'll talk a little bit more about symptomatic periods and different things going on but the follicular phase is generally a period of time where women feel pretty good, energy is higher and we kind of experience or feel more vitality throughout the follicular phase, and research does suggest that strength adaptation, muscle recovery, is better. Inflammation continues to be lower during this time in our cycle. So the follicular phase is usually a good time to challenge yourself, to focus on higher intensity exercise, strength gains and things that are maybe pushing the body a little bit more, when our resilience and our recovery is higher.

Jillian Greaves: 9:17

Something interesting to note about this rise in estrogen is that this does have some systemic kind of impacts on the body. One notable one is that our cells are actually more sensitive to insulin in the follicular phase, meaning we are better at utilizing glucose energy from food but, interestingly, carb storage and access to carbohydrates in our muscle and our liver is a little bit more difficult. You know, what does all of that mean? Essentially, we may want to amp up our carbohydrate intake, particularly around training. In the follicular phase, our body's going to be really great at utilizing that you know energy. However, it's not quite as efficient at tapping into energy stored in our muscles or in our liver. So overall, I think on a foundational level in the follicular phase, I really emphasize, with women focusing on the foundations and a really balanced diet, consistent eating overall, but then really considering possibly amping up our carbohydrate intake to make sure that we have a lot of energy readily available, particularly if we are amping up our training at this time.

Philip Pape: 10:36

Okay, this is great. I know we didn't get to the other two phases yet in the great detail you just went to, but I'm glad we stopped there because this is exciting to understand that you can leverage. You know how you feel during these phases or how your body responds, knowing that that is maybe unique to you, but also a thing that's going to happen periodically. And that's kind of getting to the questions about how do we then look at our training on an individual basis, not on a general basis, right, because you said some women feel terrible during the menstruation period, and I was actually thinking I was going to ask you a little side question about particular conditions, like endometriosis is a big one that affects a lot of women. I think it's like 25% now. It's a huge number, including some people I know personally, and that definitely affects all of this. Where does that come in, or do we keep that for like a separate discussion?

Jillian Greaves: 11:25

Yeah, I mean we can chat about that now and I think there, cause there's so many directions you could go here and I think I'm talking about all right, you know, in a general sense, when these fluctuations are happening, how are they impacting the body? How can we support those things on a foundational level? When I think about endometriosis, I think about there being issues with estrogen and how we're breaking down and metabolizing estrogen. I think about the immune component in terms of that pro-inflammatory state that's often, you know, kind of goes hand in hand with endometriosis, the gut imbalances that play a role here. So we want to consider those factors, you know, 100% and for someone you know, say, with endometriosis, that's having, you know, issues with estrogen in terms of maybe they're overproducing estrogen, maybe they're metabolizing their estrogen in a way that's creating certain estrogen metabolites that are more, you know, inflammatory or more proliferative. They may not be experiencing these shifts exactly how I'm describing them, and maybe they don't feel great. During that follicular phase, as you know, estrogen is increasing. In that case I, you know, I always say, first and foremost, listen to your body, listen to your body. The worst thing that we can do is ignore how our body's communicating with us. So if the body's asking for more rest or asking you to peel back on, you know the intensity of movement. So important to respond to that In a general sense.

Jillian Greaves: 12:46

For you know someone with endometriosis and say, those issues with estrogen and you know, maybe gut imbalances or the immune kind of pro-inflammatory elements. We may also want to and this is where we can get a little bit more zoomed in but first and foremost always need to focus on those foundations, make sure, like you know, blood sugar is balanced, we're eating enough. All those core foundations are dialed in From there. Maybe we do focus on some micro strategies with food and we're bringing in, you know, foods that help support, you know, healthy estrogen metabolism and clearance. For example, you know we know cruciferous vegetables that are rich in sulforaphane can help with how we're processing estrogens and also have really great anti-inflammatory benefits. So you know, maybe we're kind of focusing on incorporating more of those cruciferous vegetables throughout.

Jillian Greaves: 13:37

You know the follicular phase leading up to that estrogen peak. Maybe we're really amping up and diversifying our fiber intake. Fiber plays a really important role in, you know one supporting, you know, gut health, the gut ecosystem, our intestinal lining, regulation of the immune system, but it's also something that helps with, you know, binding and eliminating excess estrogens if we need support with that estrogen clearance. So there's things that we can do that get a little bit more zoomed in, um, you know, and and can really be beneficial, depending on you know kind of the case. And that's where I think it's like, you know, let's focus on those foundations and then pay attention to what our body is communicating with us throughout the cycle.

Philip Pape: 14:21

Yeah, for sure. Uh, and there's a lot of things in there that would trigger people, and they're the exact type of things that I mentioned that trigger people. But like, what's wrong with fiber and micronutrients? Right, like eating a huge, diverse variety of fruits and vegetables, but you know there's the carnivore camp and some other camps that kind of have a little bit of misinformation on that. And so that leads me back to the follicular phase.

Philip Pape: 14:41

When you talked about muscle recovery adaptation, you also said the insulin sensitivity goes up, but glucose uptake doesn't necessarily follow. But that only means that you can't tap as quickly into your naturally stored glycogen, which I recommend. Most people lifting weights don't train fasted anyway and like, have at least a huge carb-based meal at night, which generally disrupts sleep, or, better yet, eat before you work out in the morning, which is some carbs. It doesn't. It can be a banana or you know, depending. What are your thoughts on that, on carbs in general, on some of the messaging around carbs, on some of this stuff about like, well, women over 40 need to eat low carb and it's a whole thing. So let's clear that up. I know that could be its own episode.

Jillian Greaves: 15:28

I know, oh my gosh, could it be? Yeah, you know I.

Jillian Greaves: 15:29

I will honestly say that low carb diets are like the bane of my existence in terms of my, my work in in the women's health space and, I would say, most all clients we work with. We are working to bring more carbohydrates, more quality carbohydrates, in into their diet. And I think what people often don't understand is that low-carb diets, particularly like these ultra-low-carb diets that we see women on, where there's not even a target there, it's like let's just eat as little carbohydrates as possible. This is a stressor on the body. It's incredibly stressful and if we are experiencing blood sugar crashes, blood sugar dips, in relation to not eating enough carbohydrates, if we're not eating enough carbohydrates to actually support recovery and muscle protein synthesis and all of these things, it's really working against us at the end of the day. And something I always say really working against us at the end of the day and something I always say which is like I understand I know is like a very oversimplified, you know message, but I think it hits home with people is that carbs calm cortisol. So if we are not eating enough carbohydrates, you know we can actually experience dysregulation with cortisol.

Jillian Greaves: 16:39

One of our you know primary stress hormones, which is a you know one of its biggest jobs is to keep blood sugar regulated and to make sure that we have adequate energy for the body to use to sustain day-to-day activities and functioning. So for a lot of women that we work with, I think that hits home in terms of eating enough food in general, but particularly making sure we're getting enough carbohydrates can really help to support the body's stress resilience, to help, you know, with balancing the nervous system, supporting metabolic health, and we can actually, like, reap the benefits of our workouts versus having it be, you know, having workouts be in the context of, you know, poor stress resilience, blood sugar wonkiness, and we're kind of again throwing gasoline on the fire or working against ourselves at the end of the day, yeah, you said so many critical things there, as well as some of the unsung benefits of carbs that I think are really important.

Philip Pape: 17:35

I just want to reemphasize three that you mentioned. So people really get that message by saying it's a stressor on the body. I love that, because now you could get the thought that you're dieting while not dieting. That's kind of the phrase I've used. Right, like, when you're low carb, even if your calories are quote unquote sufficient, you're still lacking significant resources for certain things that you care about when you're trying to lift weights, improve your body composition, even just move in general, and then you probably stack on top of that chronic forms of cardio that further exacerbate the issue. So that is huge. You mentioned muscle protein synthesis. You just kind of snuck it in there and people are like what does she mean? Isn't that what protein's for? Right, but it's a. What do we call it? Anti-catabolic? I assume you're talking about the anti-catabolic effects of carbs. Are there any other aspects related to muscle synthesis you want to highlight there?

Jillian Greaves: 18:20

I think, ultimately, I think the big ones being carbs and protein together. Protein gets a lot of attention, but really the that we work with the foundation is often so shaky we need to start there first. So, overall, let's make sure we're eating consistent meals, blood sugars regulated, with meals that contain adequate carbs, adequate protein, so the you know kind of time period, specifically post-workout, post-training, where we can kind of optimize that muscle protein synthesis, the building and repair of lean muscle, and that's where we can kind of bring in carbs and protein in a more targeted way to kind of support that process and optimize recovery and kind of what we're, you know, usually looking to achieve with workouts.

Philip Pape: 19:23

Yeah, it's funny you mentioned the foundational stuff you know usually looking to achieve with workouts. Yeah, it's funny, you mentioned the foundational stuff. I think of some of the questions that I just automatically ask clients in their onboarding it's like do you train fasted? You know like, do you train? Let me know, be honest right now, let's nip that in the bud. Yeah, not that people can't, I'm just saying that's just one example. So then, and then a couple other things you mentioned.

Philip Pape: 19:39

One was cortisol, which again gets a lot of. There's a lot of mystery around it. I did have someone recently on the on the show where we talked about kind of similar to you. You know all the myths around it, how cortisol is really just a lagging indicator of what's going on with your stress system. And there's all these things upstream that can affect not only the production of cortisol but the timing and the cycling of your cortisol. And you're right when people I mean anecdotally, like you probably have worked with hundreds thousands of clients you see, adding in those carbs like generally nothing but wonderful results within days or weeks it's like, oh my gosh, what was I missing all these years?

Philip Pape: 20:13

Oh my gosh, I feel better. Oh my gosh, I can do this and that. Or I'm starting to lose fat or whatever. It's crazy. And the only time I'd ever recommend low carbs is when you are in a calorie deficit and it tends to follow the calories right, like I'm in a fat loss phase now. So my carbs are only 150 and not 400, you know what I mean, but they're not like 30, you know.

Jillian Greaves: 20:32

Right, and and you, you know, I think, carefully selected the word phase, right, you know where it's like an intentional phase where we're making adjustments with, you know, caloric intake, with carbohydrate intake, and I think what we see is, you know, women that have been trying to, you know, cut carbs and eat low calorie for a decade, right? So, um, yeah, I think that's a you know keyword that you use in terms of phase and the intentionality behind that.

Philip Pape: 21:02

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. No listeners, listeners anybody who's listened to the show for a while know how much I love cutting bulking phases, stair step, like really making it work for you. And then the other thing you mentioned at some point you mentioned it was blood sugar and insulin. You kind of alluded to it. One of the fears is blood sugar spikes. I talked to someone who had a CGM you know continuous glucose monitor for listeners and she said she stopped eating potatoes because her blood sugar was spiking. I'm like we got to get some education here, right?

Philip Pape: 21:28

It's like blood sugar spikes are normal. They're going to happen. They're especially going to happen when you're only eating carbs. But there's lots of things to mitigate them with. You mentioned balanced meals. I think you mentioned balanced meals, yeah, and also lifting weights mitigates it, Walking mitigates it. But let's just touch on that real quick again, because people are afraid about insulin sensitivity. You know, pre-diabetes metabolic disease, getting fat from carbs, like that blood sugar piece of it.

Jillian Greaves: 21:52

Yeah, and you know, understandably so, with all the, you know, kind of misinformation out there. But you know, ultimately we need carbs to support and regulate our blood sugar. But we always have to think about the context. So you know to your point carbs are supposed to be easily digested, they are supposed to make our blood sugar rise. We recommend eating a potato alone as your meal. No, right, because that's going to produce a bigger, more rapid spike in blood sugar and insulin. That's where we want to think about food pairings and combinations. So we always want to ideally make sure that we're, especially at meals, incorporating carbohydrates alongside adequate protein, alongside fiber, alongside healthy fats, all of which are going to help to slow down the digestion of glucose and to kind of elongate the blood sugar curve after we eat, to prevent big spikes and crashes or kind of riding that blood sugar roller coaster. But again, it's important for, I think, people to know that if you know our body isn't getting, you know, energy, carbohydrates from food, it's going to find it elsewhere. And that's where, again, we you know for experiencing, say, you know, blood sugar crashes or lows because we're, you know, prolonging our overnight fast way too long, or you know we're skipping meals. We're eating low carb, our overnight fast, way too long. We're skipping meals. We're eating low carb.

Jillian Greaves: 23:20

What happens is the body's going to sense that low energy availability and it's going to start pumping out cortisol, which is by definition a glucocorticoid, meaning again, one of its primary jobs is to help regulate blood sugar. So cortisol is going to tap into carbohydrate stores in our liver and our muscles and kind of dump that into the bloodstream to normalize things. At the same time it's also going to tell our cells to become more insulin, more resistant to insulin. So you know it will kind of impede or impair our ability to kind of utilize, you know, carbohydrates efficiently. So it kind of backfires at the end of the day when we're just sort of like arbitrarily kind of cutting carbs, going low carb.

Jillian Greaves: 24:05

So ultimately we want to experience a rise in blood sugar after eating. We just want that to be more stable. We want slow, rolling hills throughout the day versus, like, the big peaks and valleys. And that's where I think there's just so much misinformation and lack of education out there. And I think you know we really strive to do with the women we work with is to get them feeling confident with how to actually like. Utilize carbohydrates to enhance how your body is functioning and to enhance how you're feeling, and to support that you know healthy blood sugar regulation.

Philip Pape: 24:37

Yeah, yeah, it's like these hormones are agnostic, right. Hormones aren't out to get you and something like insulin is extremely beneficial tool for us, especially when we're active and lifting. It's the resistance and it's the counteracting that with the lifestyle choices like cutting carbs that tend to make the difference. All right, I know we got off a very valuable tangent, but let's getting back to the cycle syncing. You mentioned a few things in the research about in general. Everything's a normal curve right For the population in the menstruation cycle and follicular. That could be potentially the higher recovery, higher performance part of the half of the month. Does that mean the other half in relative terms might feel like a drain to a lot of women or is it more of a baseline?

Jillian Greaves: 25:20

Yeah, great question.

Jillian Greaves: 25:21

So I would say, entering the luteal phase, that kind of like final or fourth phase of the menstrual cycle, is where some more significant changes occur that can and should impact how women feel. I don't want to make it seem like, you know, we're robots and nothing is happening internally and we should feel like you know, exactly the same every day throughout our cycle. Experiencing subtle shifts is normal, and when I say subtle shifts I'm talking, you know, some subtle shifts with energy, maybe some subtle shifts with mood or stress resilience, but these things should be subtle and not wildly disruptive. We shouldn't be experiencing extreme anxiety in our luteal phase. Digestive symptoms, exhaustion, crazy mood swings these are all indications that likely the body needs deeper support and there are some bigger, more significant imbalances at play that might need to be addressed. But I would say again, in a general sense, going into the luteal phase, that second half of the cycle, so that's where you know progesterone and estrogen are, you know, going to be higher. This combination or I kind of refer to it as, like you know, the one-two punch of having both of these hormones being higher does decrease our stress resilience, so our body is less resilient to stress.

Jillian Greaves: 26:43

Our immune system is actually altered and the body is in a more pro-inflammatory state throughout the luteal phase and essentially the increase in progesterone. In particular, it increases our sympathetic drive, so the body having more of an affinity for kind of that fight or flight mode. Progesterone also increases the breakdown of muscle, so it's essentially catabolic and that's to prioritize the uterus over skeletal muscle. During the luteal phase our core body temperature increases, or there's more issues with thermoregulation or ability to maintain body temperature. Blood sugar is also impacted where we are a little bit less sensitive to insulin on a cellular level. Our breathing rates are impacted, so there are more significant changes. A couple other things to note would be sodium absorption is decreased. Our energy expenditure at rest actually also increases a little bit anywhere from like 2% to 10%, so not crazy. From anywhere from like 2% to 10%, so not crazy. But we actually may need more energy, more calories, during this phase of our cycle.

Jillian Greaves: 28:05

So I would say, in general, the luteal phase is a time where the body overall is just a bit less resilient. Does that mean you can't do any type of movement? No, absolutely not. But in general I tend to consider the luteal phase as a period of time where women can benefit from more steady state cardio, from low impact, strength training, mobility work and focusing on recovery if we were pushing it a little bit harder, say in the follicular phase. So I think it's just important to acknowledge those physiological shifts and we'll work with many women, as an example, that are going to Orange Theory and trying to hit PRs three to five days a week and they're doing that every single week throughout their cycle, despite maybe not feeling so great in the luteal phase. And you know they might notice um going, you know, engaging in those higher intensity workouts during the luteal phase, you know their sleep is disrupted, their energy is crashing, their digestion is off, um. So which would all be signs that, hey, you know, maybe the context right now, um isn't the time for the ultra high intensity workouts and maybe we need to peel, peel back a little bit. So definitely some some shifts happening in the luteal phase that I would say are more significant. One thing to note too is that the body, actually there's increased fat, fat utilization in the luteal phase, based on what's happening hormonally. To kind of bring all of this together from like a recommendation, you know, action based standpoint, the luteal phase, to kind of bring all of this together from like a recommendation, you know, action-based standpoint, the luteal phase.

Jillian Greaves: 29:39

Generally we may need to eat a little bit more. So, you know, always eat to hunger, make sure we're responding to hunger and not kind of, you know, trying to white knuckle it and then overeating. At the end of the day, if our body is hungry, let's respond to that. We may benefit from increasing protein and fat intake a little bit. So, again, fat utilization is a little bit higher because progesterone is catabolic. We may want to incorporate more protein to support that, to support lean muscle.

Jillian Greaves: 30:10

And from a carbohydrate perspective, we absolutely are still going to want to incorporate carbohydrates consistently, but we may put a little bit of less of an emphasis on carbohydrates during this timeframe than we did, say, in the follicular phase, where we want to make sure we have that readily available glucose to fuel our workout.

Jillian Greaves: 30:29

So we still want to support consistent carb intake, but we may be focusing more so on protein and on fats, which I think, naturally too, a lot of women kind of gravitate towards in terms of like, we're a little bit hungrier, cravings are a little bit higher and protein and fats are really these deeply satiating foods and really help with that blood sugar regulation. This might also be a period of time where we kind of, if we're taking more of a micro focus on things, we may really amp up our anti-inflammatory intake. So we're in more of that you know, kind of pro-inflammatory state Again, you know recovery isn't as great. So that might be a way that we can really support our body with increasing, you know, anti-inflammatories and that might mean, you know, incorporating more of our you know bright, colorful fruits and veggies. Are, you know, herbs and spices, are you know beets are cruciferous veggies, are fatty fish and things that are, you know, kind of flooding the body with more you know kind of compounds that are helping to kind of counteract or combat that pro-inflammatory state.

Philip Pape: 31:32

Yeah, this is great. There's a lot, lots of unpack as they in there. One thing that stands out to me is tying back to listening to your body earlier, the idea of your hunger signals. Once you get the foundations which I know you've said multiple times it's like having the foundation of good balance lots of fruits and vegetables, micronutrients, just a good baseline. I suspect your hunger signals are better in line.

Philip Pape: 31:57

And if you're not constantly dieting, constantly cutting carbs, constantly doing massive chronic cardio, then that puts you in a position where, if your body has a little more hunger in one phase versus another, you can follow it, and I can attest to that anecdotally. I've definitely worked with women who I always like to start people with very, very simple protocols because we don't know yet, and then you find they tend to eat more calories at this point, and then they're perfectly fine over here and like oh okay, there's a pattern and you're a woman, so I suspect what it might be. Let's make sure we're tracking that along with your period. I'm a big tracking and data nerd. So which leads to my next question, jillian, which is are there measures that would help enhance your understanding of this, like HRV, because you mentioned the resilience level and the parasympathetic gap shortens and things like that.

Jillian Greaves: 32:43

Yeah, love that. So absolutely, for people that have an aura ring or a whoop or something that can give you a little bit of feedback about what's going on in your body, you will likely notice, even if you're not super symptomatic, things will likely notice, even if you know you're not super symptomatic, things are really balanced, dialed in with your nutrition lifestyle. You will notice that your HRV is likely lower in the luteal phase. You'll notice that your you know body temperature is elevated. You know if there's, if your tracking device is kind of looking at I know like the Oura Ring specifically, can kind of track you know pockets of you know rest and recovery versus you know pockets that you're in a more stressed out state.

Jillian Greaves: 33:27

You may notice there being some significant shifts going from the follicular phase to the luteal phase and maybe not having changed anything or having any external factors that are driving that and that's kind of based on these internal physiological shifts that we're describing and that's normal, that's normal.

Jillian Greaves: 33:47

And so, again, I think it's listening to how your body's communicating with you and I think you know giving yourself permission in those situations to rest a little bit more to you know really focus on, you know nourishment and you know not trying to, um, do the same thing every day, all all month long? Um, because you know the benefits of, you know any type of exercise, but particularly if we're talking about challenging ourselves. You know the benefits of you know any type of exercise, but particularly if we're talking about challenging ourselves. You know the HIIT workouts and things like that. You know context is king at the end of the day. So you know stress from exercise is healthy and adaptive and can improve our resilience in the right context. In the wrong context, that's where we're, you know, may end up creating more symptoms for ourselves or, you know, kind of creating barriers with the goals that we're working towards.

Philip Pape: 34:36

So context is everything, Don't force it. Listen to your body and people get frustrated with those responses the it depends response. But it really does come down to that. No, I don't.

Stephanie: 34:47

The most value that I got from this was the fact that I had someone that I could talk to about anything and that there was going to be no judgment. It was just well, here are your goals, here's the best way that you're going to achieve it, and then let's work together to help you feel inspired and motivated to do that. Do that and there's a lot of people out there trying to be coaches, and not all of them have done the work and also just be a genuine person that is positive and coming from the heart in terms of wanting to help, and Philip really embodied all of those qualities. I would recommend him to just about anyone that's looking to achieve goals in that realm of their nutrition and building new habits.

Philip Pape: 35:33

So, but speaking of that, I know there are other extremes of this. Where and this is where maybe the diet culture and the marketing side of this goes haywire is when I hear listen to your body. That can have such a spectrum of interpretation, one being, uh, an excuse not to train hard, for example. And by training hard, like, again, my audience is a lot of you know. We talk about strength training, lifting. Um, we don't really classify it as like heavy versus intense or anything. It's just progressive overload, getting stronger, building muscle, whatever makes sense for you. But what? I would be remiss if somebody hears the message and says okay, well, I'm just a little bit down in this part of my cycle, so I'm going to completely change my programming and I'm not going to lift heavy weights or whatever it is that my program states. What are your thoughts on that?

Jillian Greaves: 36:16

Yeah, I think it's there. There's definitely a balance there and, you know, I think this can also kind of loop back to you know, assessing the context in terms of you know what's going on in terms of why might I be feeling this way? You know, how did I sleep last night? What are my stress levels? You know, like, how's my? You know how are my nervous system outlets? Am I, you know, fueling really well? You know, whenever your body's kind of giving you some signals of any sort, whether it be, you know, low energy disrupted sleep digestion is off, mood is off, you know, aim to pause. Energy disrupted sleep digestion is off, mood is off, you know, aim to pause, take a step back and kind of assess what's going on here and what does my body actually need If we identify that, you know, yeah, I'm in my luteal phase but, like I've been fueling well, my stress is low, I'm sleeping really good. You know, maybe I actually do just need to get out there and move my body and that's what's going to help, you know, kind of shift things and help me to feel better. And I'll pay attention to how I feel during that workout and in the hours after, I think, that being an important piece of things that can often give us some helpful information.

Jillian Greaves: 37:24

I don't know if you agree with this, totally open to your thoughts, but I do find, particularly with talking about, say, like luteal phase shifts, paying attention to, you know, energy, in particular, like you know, during, immediately after and in the hours after, can be helpful. If we're feeling good while, you know, while we're working out, we're feeling good afterwards and our, you know, energy is good and consistent beyond that great, you know that's, you know, awesome, that's probably a sign that things are well balanced. If we're doing that workout and 2-3 hours later we're crashing and we feel like we need to take a nap and we can't focus and there are symptoms popping up there, that's where I'd say we need to make adjustments. What I don't want cycle syncing to come across as is that, like you know, women are, you know, weak and can't work out for, you know, half of the month.

Jillian Greaves: 38:17

That is the opposite of what I'm. You know what I'm saying. You know, women are, you know, strong AF, and it's so important to not kind of let this external information tell you that like, oh, I can't do something at a certain time. First and foremost, listen to your body, you know. If you're feeling good, you know, give it a try, focus on all those foundations. But I think if it's hard with the, you know again like, say, the motivation piece or the making excuses, because, as always, there's like so much.

Philip Pape: 38:48

Yeah, no, I feel you and and for sure you, you you're not coming across at all as portraying women that way at all and I always, you know, could get into hot water when I, when I talk about women in general, just you know, especially in modern society. But uh, I know women that I've coached tend to be like super, like, extremely committed and dedicated and seem to recover almost and take more volume than some men in terms of like attacking the hard thing that they need to do. Again, these are just generalizations because there's plenty of men that are, you know, but I like that. You said that basically there is a fine balance, and you asked if I agree with what you're saying. I totally agree.

Philip Pape: 39:26

I think there's fatigue and recovery issues that we have to be almost more cognizant of than necessarily the stimulus side of our workout. We almost need to just pick a baseline to try for our training. Whether that's a volume or intensity-based approach, you don't know how you're going to respond until you've trained right Like beginners, just don't know. So it's always best to start really simple and don't put a lot of movements in there, Don't put a ton of volume and try to constantly be getting your heart rate up. Just keep it simple right. Keep a lot of recovery, a lot of space in there, and then you can say okay, my back's feeling good, you know I'm sleeping fine, I'm able to go in and progress a little bit.

Philip Pape: 40:04

The excuse part in my head comes from the small subset of folks who will say, like in my head comes from the small subset of folks who will say, like it's just hard, and now, because I have this other thing going on, I'm not going to do it. And again, it's not a women thing, it's a men thing too, trust me. So I don't know where I'm going with all that, jillian, but I think people think about these things, so so do I. Totally All right. So we touched on cycle syncing from the research a bit. Is there anything else, I guess, in the research that you think is particularly notable or that we've discovered, especially lately, as this topic's been learned more about? I know women's health has been like a black box for so long and we're starting to finally do research around this. Is there anything else people should know about it?

Jillian Greaves: 40:45

Yeah, I think we kind of covered the big rocks with, you know, cycle syncing or you know kind of what's happening with these shifts throughout our menstrual cycle and kind of some foundational shifts that we can make. I think one thing I'd mention, which I think you've covered on the podcast, is just for women in particular of reproductive age and maybe kind of reconsidering the prolonged fasting or the fasted workouts really at any time in their cycle. That's kind of one additional side note that I would mention.

Philip Pape: 41:23

Cool. No, it's a good one. You mean not doing it at all? Yes, I agree, I always put this tiny caveat of like, well small subset of people may find that they thrive on it, but that's more of my like, cya, because somebody out there is going to say that it works great for them, they don't have any issues, blah, blah, blah and. But in reality, don't do it. It's kind of like the advice where you can you build muscle on low carbs. Ah, there's some people that do it, but why do it? You just have the carbs flooding in your system. It'll make it a lot easier. Um, what about?

Philip Pape: 41:54

Okay, so birth control, irregular cycles? I don't know, those are two separate things. But especially birth control is a super hot topic and I know your thoughts on it, cause I've seen your social media and I know a lot of women's thoughts on it as well as my own. Uh, I don't like it. I don't like birth control because of the, because of a lot of things, especially the pressure on young women to do it like get it over the counter. It's like it's treated like candy, almost compared to bioidentical hormone replacement therapy, which is somehow evil, and yet that's super helpful for a lot of women, so take it away.

Jillian Greaves: 42:25

Yeah, I love, love this topic so much and, yeah, definitely something I'm very passionate about and was honestly like a part of my own health journey a decade ago. But ultimately, I always like to preface conversations like this by mentioning I'm never anti-medication. Medication can be a helpful tool and I always support clients' autonomy to make decisions that feel really great for them. There, the big issue that I have, the two big issues I have with birth control in particular, are one, the lack of informed consent in terms of women really not being given all the information they need to actually make educated, empowered decisions around birth control, and the other big issue that I have is, ultimately, birth control being used to treat every women's health symptom and ailment under the sun.

Philip Pape: 43:18

You know if you have an irregular From a very young age, from a very young age, from a very young age. It's horrifying.

Jillian Greaves: 43:23

You know if you have an absence.

Philip Pape: 43:24

I have two daughters, just so you know, because that's why it kind of pisses me off.

Jillian Greaves: 43:27

Oh my gosh, yeah, and so great that you have this. You know knowledge, though, because I think you know so often, um, you know we, we, we trust our doctors and you know if they're recommending birth control, that you know we're gonna. You know, especially for for parents, you know they're trying to do, do the best they can for, you know, their, their young daughters, um, but ultimately it's birth control is really overused and abused and I think in in my practice, I'm seeing a lot of the implications of that. Ultimately, where you know, I think it's something like over 50 of birth control you know is used for non-pregnancy prevention reasons. I wouldn't even be surprised if the statistic is higher than that I can believe that right.

Jillian Greaves: 44:08

So it's like you know, if you don't have a period um, if your period's irregular, if your period's heavy, if it's painful, if you have acne, if you have you know mood swings, if you have endometriosis if you have.

Jillian Greaves: 44:19

PBLI, the first line of intervention is birth control, and the reason that's so frustrating is because you know hormonal birth control, particularly, you know the oral contraceptive, the combined oral contraceptive, which is most commonly used. It's essentially, you know, disrupting communication between the brain and the ovaries. It is shutting down the reproductive system or kind of shutting your own hormones off. So, although this may provide, say, some symptom relief, it's a big fat bandaid, you know, at the end of the day, and what's most bothersome is that you know people aren't asking the question why, why don't we have a regular period? There's a reason that you know our period and consistent ovulation is considered a fifth vital sign. Why are our periods extremely painful or heavy or symptomatic? These things don't happen for no reason, and that's a lot of the work that we do with clients in terms of let's dig a little bit deeper here and ask the question why and actually understand why these symptoms are happening, what imbalances are driving them and how can we really support the body back to balance. And it's really, yeah, really devastating for women who you know, for example, will work with clients that have, you know, were put on birth control because they're you know they didn't have a period, or it was really, you know, irregular when they were in middle school or high school, and you know, 15 years later, they're, you know, come off and they're ready to start their family and their period's still not there, right, and it's you know.

Jillian Greaves: 45:56

Or if they're put on birth control for managing or suppressing symptoms, they come off and those symptoms come back with vengeance and they feel, you know, like, oh my gosh, I'm at square one. What do I do here? And then, when they seek out support from their healthcare provider, often it's like birth control or bust. So that's the issue I have is that women aren't given all the information to make those informed decisions, to understand how is this birth control actually working in my body, what are the pros and cons, the potential side effects that I should be aware of, and also, you know, just the lack of investigative work in terms of actually understanding why women are experiencing symptoms. And women deserve better. They deserve better and we can get to the bottom of these things and, you know, often eliminate these symptoms naturally, get the period back, get us ovulating regularly, naturally, but women aren't even given that opportunity, which is wildly frustrating.

Philip Pape: 46:51

Yeah, I mean it's. It's funny, the discussion around birth control almost never has to do with it being a prophylactic at this point which tells you something.

Philip Pape: 46:58

And then, um, you know again, you you call it the fifth vital sign, which is amazing because we we know like amenorrhea can be caused by lots of these lifestyle changes we already addressed, like the lower carbs, the lower calories, low energy availability is one right. You see that in physique competitors particularly and then some other sorts of issue that might be happening that you want to resolve first. So I'm glad that you work with women on those kinds of things and it sounds like you come to it from a natural, generally a natural position at first, but aren't precluding medications when needed, which is a great balanced approach to have, in my opinion. On a lighter note, but potentially it could get controversial, are you open to a few rapid fire questions here? Just like short answers are fine. I came up with four that I thought might be interesting. So the first one is what's the biggest false claim about synchro psyche, synchro cycle, synching?

Jillian Greaves: 47:45

Yeah that. I would say that cycle syncing is the solution to PCOS endometriosis and these actual endocrine metabolic conditions. That is it.

Philip Pape: 48:02

Download my free guide to fix PCOS with cycle syncing. All right, what's the most overrated hormone-supporting supplement?

Jillian Greaves: 48:09

Oh, I would say DIM.

Philip Pape: 48:14

Okay, tell us more. People don't know what that is.

Jillian Greaves: 48:16

DIM or diendylmethane is. I'm butchering that, but DIM is a really common compound found in hormone balancing supplements A lot of really popular, trendy ones and it's a compound that can actually influence the overall levels of estrogen and how we're breaking down and metabolizing estrogen, and I see a lot of women kind of taking it willy-nilly. I have hormonal acne, I have painful periods, and it's something that can be beneficial in the right context, but without lab data and an assessment, I see women sort of taking DIM willy-nilly and so, yeah, no, it's good to know.

Philip Pape: 49:03

I mean, I'm sure there's a whole list you could have come up with. That's just one. What's the worst advice you've seen, just in general, about hormones? I know it's kind of a general question, oh gosh.

Jillian Greaves: 49:15

So much bad advice. Yeah, the worst advice in general with hormones, I think, a specific one that doesn't come to mind in isolation. I would say just in general, the like very zoomed in, like micro strategy recommendations that I kind of mentioned this early on in relation to cycle syncing, but I think it stems from the, the influence influencer of, like you know, steal, my hormone balancing morning routine. I have, you know, my green powder and then, um, you know, my lemon water and this and that, and it's not that those things can't be, you know, beneficial or or helpful, but I would say, just all these like zoomed in recommendations that totally missed the forest for the trees. There's no personalization or customization. I think that's what kind of keeps women on on the symptom hamster wheel.

Philip Pape: 50:08

Ah, so, so great. I have another small. I have another podcast, experimental podcast, called Nutrition Science Daily, and almost every episode I try to have some sort of boogeyman trigger like that. You mentioned lemon water. I think I had an episode about lemons and it's like, like you said, could, could these be helpful? Beneficial for something? Yeah, oh, maybe for electrolytes? Yeah, but it's not going to solve all your problems and burn fat and fix your hormones.

Stephanie: 50:26

So that's, that's the key.

Philip Pape: 50:28

Um, all right, last one. This is going to be an interesting one. What are your thoughts on male coaches working with women?

Jillian Greaves: 50:33

Yeah, so you know, I, I'm all for it. If you know the the male coach is, um, you know, respectful of and takes female physiology into consideration. You know, I think in any situation, if you're a female coach or a male coach, it's important to, you know, have some level of understanding of female physiology, you know, depending on, like, where an individual is at in the life cycle and what's happening with hormones, you know, not even just speaking to, like, the menstrual cycle and the reproductive years. But I think it's important to have some education, you know, with female physiology and to take that into account and to not, you know, kind of treat, you know, male and female clients as exactly the same, because there's, you know, a lot of physiological differences there.

Philip Pape: 51:27

Yeah, for sure. No, I'm always curious about that because I can say that my women clients have been one of my best teachers about women's physiology. But at the same time, I do encourage any coach, like you said, men or women to be educated on a lot of these nuances and also be skeptical of what you're reading and where the source of the information is, because I love bringing you on the podcast here because we can discuss that it is a nuanced thing and that you shouldn't ever go overboard and that it's personal. So, with that said, what does the process look like if someone either wants to work with you or just in general, figure this stuff out, because it sounds complicated? If you're listening to the show, you're like man, she covered a lot of things and we're just scratching the surface. How can we take off that stress a little bit?

Jillian Greaves: 52:09

Yeah, and you know it. It at the end of the day it doesn't. It doesn't have to be complicated. I know it can can sound like that when we're, you know, hitting on all sorts of different topics, but you know, at the end of the day, I think, when you you have, you know, custom support and a clear plan and you're not trying to, like, you know, pick and choose and throw things at the wall and see what sticks, it all comes together then.

Jillian Greaves: 52:31

But in terms of you know, working with us, you can find out a little bit more about you know how me and my dietitians work with clients on my website, which is just JillianGreevescom. We work with people in a, with women specifically, in a six-month container. So you know, as you know, healing, achieving goals takes time, so we require a six-month container. So, as you know, healing, achieving goals takes time. So we require that six-month commitment and really support clients comprehensively, from lab testing, nutrition, lifestyle supplements, mind-body techniques and really kind of try to lay out a clear blueprint with that deep customization to remove the overwhelm and ideally, help women get to where they want to go.

Philip Pape: 53:09

Awesome and I definitely have an abundance mindset when it comes to when other coaches on my show I'm like. I want to recommend Jillian here because, just through our conversation and our back and forth, I highly respect what you do and where you come from and the approach you take. So if anybody is looking for exactly what Jillian provides, having a coach for any issues you have is going to accelerate things massively, and I don't say that just because I'm a coach for any issues you have is going to accelerate things massively. I don't say that just because I'm a coach. I believe it and that's why I became a coach. So, having said all that, go to JillianGreevescom. Jillian has been fantastic. I loved our conversation, getting into the weeds and some of these things. Ladies, men, don't cut carbs all the time. Stop training, fasted Support and listen to your body and you're going to thrive out there. So thank you so much, jillian, for coming on.

Jillian Greaves: 53:49

Awesome. Thank you for having me.

Strength vs. Hypertrophy (The 65% Threshold for Lifters Chasing PRs vs. Muscle Size) | Ep 297

Download a FREE set of 8 strength and physique-focused workout programs from Physique University for 3 vs. 4 days, novice vs. intermediate, a built in log, form videos, and exercise substitutions for all types of equipment (barbell, dumbbells, machines, bodyweight) at witsandweights.com/free

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Why does always chasing maximum STRENGTH seem to limit muscle development, while always focusing on building MUSCLE doesn't deliver the strength gains you want? 

This paradox frustrates countless lifters, but the answer lies in understanding the pathways and mechanisms behind strength and hypertrophy.

Learn the science-backed differences between training for maximal strength vs. optimal muscle growth, and how to program for both without compromising either goal.

Main Takeaways:

• The 65% threshold reveals why strength and hypertrophy training require different approaches

• For beginners, neural adaptations drive strength gains with minimal muscle growth

• Advanced lifters need strategic programming to optimize both strength and size

• Mechanical tension drives both adaptations but through different pathways

Timestamps:

0:01 - The strength-size paradox
3:04 - Strength vs. hypertrophy
9:12 - Why intensity differs between approaches
13:01 - Volume for muscle vs. strength
15:55 - Rest periods and exercise selection
17:48 - How to train for strength or hypertrophy
26:53 - Powerbuilding
31:39 - Common myths and misconceptions
37:29 - Training age and how it changes your approach

Strength vs. Hypertrophy and the 65% Rule for Lifters Who Want It All

If you've been lifting for a while, you've probably noticed a paradox. Training for maximum strength doesn’t always lead to the biggest muscles, while training for muscle growth doesn’t always maximize strength. Many lifters struggle with this balance, wondering if they should be lifting heavy to get stronger or using lighter weights with more reps to build muscle. The truth is, you don’t have to pick just one. Strength and size are connected, but they require different strategies to optimize. If you want to get stronger and look stronger, you need to understand how they work together and how to program both into your training.

Strength vs. Hypertrophy

Strength training is about increasing your ability to generate maximal force. Think powerlifters focusing on their one-rep max in the squat, bench, and deadlift. Hypertrophy training, on the other hand, is about increasing muscle size using mechanical tension, usually through moderate weights and rep ranges.

The key difference is in the way the body adapts. Early on, most strength gains come from neurological improvements, not muscle growth. Your nervous system gets better at recruiting muscle fibers and coordinating movement. This explains why beginners can gain strength quickly without seeing major changes in muscle size. As you get more advanced, though, further strength gains require more muscle mass. This is why elite powerlifters are often very muscular, even if their main goal isn’t aesthetics.

The 65% Rule

Research shows that to build strength, you need to train with at least 65% of your one-rep max. This is the intensity threshold needed to develop the nervous system adaptations necessary for strength. Hypertrophy, however, can occur with loads as low as 30% of your max, provided you train close to failure.

For strength, lifting heavy is essential. This means working in the 80 to 100% range of your max to maximize motor unit recruitment. If your focus is muscle growth, though, you have more flexibility. Hypertrophy can be achieved with lower loads as long as you push sets close to failure to ensure enough mechanical tension.

How Strength and Hypertrophy Training Differ

Strength training focuses on heavier loads, lower reps, and longer rest periods. The goal is to train the nervous system and develop efficient motor patterns. This means focusing on compound lifts like squats, deadlifts, presses, and rows with rep ranges in the one to six range, resting at least three to five minutes between heavy sets. Strength programs emphasize quality over quantity, meaning fewer total sets but a focus on executing each rep with maximum force.

Hypertrophy training emphasizes volume. The total amount of work done is a major driver of muscle growth, and this typically means more sets and a broader range of rep schemes, from six to 20 reps per set. Rest periods are often shorter, in the one to three-minute range, to maintain tension and metabolic stress. Exercises include a mix of compound and isolation movements, ensuring muscles are trained from multiple angles for balanced development.

How to Train for Both Strength and Size

Many lifters want to be both strong and muscular. The good news is that you can train for both, but it requires balancing intensity and volume. Powerbuilding is a popular approach that blends strength and hypertrophy. This method prioritizes heavy compound lifts at the beginning of a workout, followed by moderate to higher rep accessory work to build muscle.

A typical powerbuilding session might start with a heavy squat, bench, or deadlift in the three to five rep range. After that, additional compound movements and isolation exercises fill out the session with higher rep work. Over time, this allows you to get stronger while also building muscle.

The Biggest Myths About Strength and Hypertrophy

One common myth is that you need to lift extremely heavy weights to build muscle. In reality, research shows that moderate weights can be just as effective for muscle growth if taken close to failure. The key is mechanical tension, not just the weight on the bar.

Another misconception is that strength gains can happen indefinitely without muscle growth. While beginners can gain strength without significant increases in size, more advanced lifters must build more muscle to keep getting stronger.

The idea that soreness and getting a pump indicate an effective hypertrophy workout is also misleading. Soreness and pump can be satisfying, but they don’t directly correlate with muscle growth. Instead, focusing on progressive overload and ensuring each set challenges the muscle is what matters.

There’s also a belief that bodybuilders aren’t strong and powerlifters don’t care about muscle. In reality, elite bodybuilders are extremely strong, and competitive powerlifters have a lot of muscle mass. The differences come down to training emphasis and competition goals, not fundamental differences in adaptation.

Finally, one of the biggest mistakes lifters make is program hopping. Constantly switching between programs prevents real progress. Strength and size development take months, not weeks, so patience and consistency are key.

How to Structure Your Training Based on Experience Level

For beginners, the focus should be on getting stronger in the fundamental lifts. Training in the four to six rep range with compound movements builds both strength and muscle efficiently. Programs like Starting Strength or other strength-based novice programs are great for this phase.

For intermediates who have been training seriously for at least a year, a powerbuilding approach works well. This involves mixing strength and hypertrophy work within each session or across different training blocks. The key is balancing heavy low-rep work with higher rep muscle-building exercises.

For advanced lifters, specialization becomes more important. If you want to maximize strength, you may need to include dedicated hypertrophy blocks to build more muscle. If muscle growth is the goal, strategic strength phases can help you lift heavier weights, leading to more progressive overload in hypertrophy work.

Applying This to Your Training

If you want to put these principles into action, I’ve put together a complete set of workout programs from Wits & Weights Physique University. These programs include options for both strength and hypertrophy, with built-in tracking tools, exercise substitutions, and structured progressions.

Download your free copy here.

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Transcript

Philip Pape: 0:01

Whether you just got into lifting or you've been training consistently for years, you might be aware of a paradox that going after maximum numbers seems to limit the development of your physique and muscle, while focusing on just hypertrophy or muscle size development doesn't seem to deliver the ultimate strength numbers that you want. Well, research shows that, beyond the novice stage, strength and size gains follow fundamentally different pathways. Today, we're talking about the science-backed differences between training for maximal strength versus optimal muscle growth and how to program for both without compromising either. Welcome to Wits and Weights, the show that helps you build a strong, healthy physique using evidence, engineering and efficiency. I'm your host, philip Pape, and today I'm going to address one of the most misunderstood relationships in fitness the connection between strength and hypertrophy, the fancy word for muscle growth and I want to give a shout out to my lifting buddy, tony. You know who you are as well as my client, len, who have pushed me recently to cover this topic in depth and it's a good one, because I see this confusion constantly with clients in our online communities, where people ask should I lift heavy to get stronger, or should I use lighter weights or more reps to build muscle? Or they'll say I'm getting stronger but I'm not seeing much size increase or development of my physique. Or, conversely, you know I look bigger but my lifts aren't really going up that much. Look bigger but my lifts aren't really going up that much. And the separation between these two training goals you know it's not as black and white as many believe, like the old school. Well, strength is one to five reps and hypertrophy is eight to 12, and so on. There is significant overlap, but there are also significant differences in how you should approach each one, and understanding this relationship is critical to design an effective program, or at least choose a program so that you know it gives you the specific results you want. Now, if you want to put these principles into action immediately, I've definitely got something special for you today, because I'm giving away a complete set of my physique and strength-focused workout programs from Wits and Weights Physique University totally free, giving you the whole thing for the current month for all skill levels, all types of equipment. There are swaps, there's video links in there, there are instructions novice, intermediate, glutes and legs. There are a lot of different programs and they're the exact programs that our WWPU members can choose from, including a built-in log, exercise substitutions for home and travel, you name it. So just go to witsandweightscom, slash free or click the link in the show notes. If you go to our website, just look for Physique Focus Programs I think it's called but just click the link in the show notes to get a free copy of that today.

Philip Pape: 3:04

All right, so let's clear up the confusion between strength and hypertrophy training once and for all, making this the definitive episode on the topic. First, let's define what the heck we're talking about. Strength training primarily focuses on increasing your ability to generate maximal force. How much weight you can lift for low reps, ideally for one rep, the most you can lift for one rep, but in that range. So think about powerlifting powerlifting competitions, where athletes perform one rep at the heaviest possible weight for their deadlift, their squat and their bench press. And this is something I didn't understand for many, many years, and once I did and focused on it when I was a beginner, the gain started to take off and it opened up a whole world of learning and understanding about this. But then at some point you start to hit a wall and you're like why am I not getting stronger, or why am I not getting the physique I want? So hypertrophy training, on the other hand, in somewhat contrast to strength, emphasizes increasing muscle size using the ultimate principle, which is mechanical tension, and it's often by doing it through moderate I'll call it moderate weights. I don't like to say lightweights, it's just moderate weights. It's sub-maximal or far from your max for mid to higher tier rep ranges like 6 to 15, up to 20, even up to 30. That's what I'm saying is there's quite a wide range where this can be effective.

Philip Pape: 4:32

Now, the interesting part here is that if you look at the science, we see that these adaptations share a fundamental driver and that is mechanical tension, which I just mentioned in the context of hypertrophy. But the way your body responds to this tension is going to differ, based on load volume and other variables, and here's where the 65% threshold becomes important. I think this is really important. So listen up. Research consistently shows that to build maximal strength, you generally okay, generally, this is a combination of the research need to train with at least 65% of your one rep max. Okay, that is 65% of your max. This is an intensity threshold that ensures that you have sufficient neural right, your nervous system, neural recruitment and adaptation. But if you're just trying to build muscle and I say that in quotes we're going to get to the differences and the overlaps. You can potentially go as low as 30% of your one rep max. Provided that you are training close to failure, you're still leveraging the principle of mechanical tension either way.

Philip Pape: 5:42

So I want to explain why this happens through the lens of the research. So in the early stages of strength gains this is when you're a complete beginner or a novice or even a late novice most improvement comes from neurological adaptations, not muscle growth. Your central nervous system, your CNS, becomes more efficient at recruiting muscle fibers and synchronizing your motor units, and studies show that in novice lifters, increases in muscle size might explain as little as 2% of the variance in strength gains. That's pretty telling, right? That tells you that it's not. It doesn't have much to do with muscle at all, because nearly all strength improvement comes from better neural efficiency and technique, and this is why you can gain massive strength very quickly early on, because you don't need to grow new muscle tissue to get there. You're simply training your body to coordinate better effectively.

Philip Pape: 6:38

So you guys probably know Dr Eric Helms, one of the guys I follow. He's a natural bodybuilder, he's a researcher, always on the podcast circuit Stronger by science, mass, all that good stuff and he explains this phenomenon very clearly. He says when you first start training your body and coordinate the muscles and that's where beginners again can double their strength but have minimal visible muscle gain, and that can be it can be both exhilarating because your numbers are going up, and frustrating because your physique isn't quite changing yet. And then, as you become more advanced, the relationship shifts very dramatically. For experienced lifters, muscle mass then becomes critical for further strength gains. You've heard of you know, working on your weak spots, for example, and it potentially explains 65% or more of the variability in strength increases.

Philip Pape: 7:39

Okay, listen to what I just said. When you're more advanced, muscle mass becomes more relevant for strength. So, in other words, once you've optimized your nervous system and your lifting technique, getting stronger largely means building bigger muscles. And so the chicken and egg is always confusing here, because it's like which one supports the other. The answer is yes, and this explains why elite power lifters are also quite jacked. They're quite muscular, right, they have to be, even if aesthetics isn't their primary goal, and you might see the big guys who carried a lot of extra weight. They then cut down because their goals change. Maybe they even go into bodybuilding and I won't say it's easy for them because it's going to depend on their shape and their symmetry as well. But you see that fat fall off and they've got tons of muscle slabs and slabs of meat on their frame and so at advanced levels, more muscle becomes necessary to continue breaking strength plateaus Really really important, because I think people get stuck in the mindset of doing the same.

Philip Pape: 8:42

You know, three by five program forever, and they are leaving lots of potential gains on the same. You know, three by five program forever, and they are leaving lots of potential gains on the table, even for their strength. So now that we understand the relationship between strength and size, kind of at a high level I don't want to get too deep into the weeds here. There's so much evidence and research out there that you could explore I want to talk about how training variables differ between strength focused and hypertrophy focused programs, and again we're going to get to where these overlap and how you can incorporate a little of both.

Philip Pape: 9:12

But I want to start with intensity right, Probably the most important variable that I learned early on, especially when you're getting started. Intensity is not sweating or feel, intensity is just the load on the bar, it's how heavy you lift relative to your maximum in this context. All right. So for strength development, research is clear on this Lifting heavier weights is superior and that means working at 80 to 100% of your 1RM for your core compound lifts. The heavy weight forces maximal motor unit recruitment from the first rep. That's what's important here, and it trains your nervous system to handle near maximum lows.

Philip Pape: 9:54

And you can go down other rabbit holes and argue about intensity versus volume. I think both are extremely important. I think using intensity and then jacking that up with volume is a great approach. Or going a little bit less intense and making up for in volume, or a little bit more intense and a little bit less volume. It all works and in some cases you cycle through both within one training block Very common. I just increased all of my max lifts. Doing that, I had a base phase where I had lots of volume sub-maximal but then I switched to a peaking phase where I was in the 80 to 90% range with much less volume, to train my nervous system to get ready to hit those max singles, which eventually I did, and it actually felt pretty easy when you take the right approach. So that's strength.

Philip Pape: 10:44

Now for hypertrophy, the intensity range is much broader, which is kind of neat, because if you're really if you don't care, I'll say care about your max PRs and you just want to look better, you want to build muscle, you want to be generally fit and strong, but not strong in terms of the maximum strength. A hypertrophy approach can be helpful and flexible. It can give you a lot of flexibility because the evidence confirms that muscle growth occurs effectively from as low as 30% up to 85% of your 1RM, as long as the sets are approaching muscular failure. And the key factor here again is mechanical tension, not necessarily how heavy the weight feels. And that's a distinction, because some people, I have to be honest, are not training hard enough. And the most recent program I ran and I have one of my programs in the Physique University that is inspired by Alex Bromley. He has a volume-based approach, but the key is he uses AMRAP sets while building that strength base so that you can tell whether you are heavy enough on your load and you're pushing hard enough, without having to rely on subjective feel. And I think objectivity is a really helpful tool throughout this process.

Philip Pape: 11:57

A 2017 meta-analysis by Brad Schoenfeld found that when sets are taken to momentary failure, muscle hypertrophy gains are similar across a wide range of loads. However and this is really important maximal strength was not equal across rep ranges. So let me just repeat that when you take sets to failure just for a moment, you're going to gain hypertrophy no matter the load, at least when it's above this 30% threshold, but your strength isn't the same across different rep ranges. The same review found that heavy load training produced significantly greater one-arm strength gains than light load training. It's not really a surprise to those of us that have done this and trained with this, but it's important to understand that that is the case. That is where some of the differences exist. The second major difference is volume For hypertrophy total volume, which is your sets times reps. You could also say times load, because that gives you your tonnage and remember we are talking about vastly different load levels, so it's important to have that in there.

Philip Pape: 13:01

Volume is a primary driver of growth. Meta-analysis indicate that multiple sets per exercise yield more hypertrophy than single set training, and higher weekly sets per muscle group usually around 10 to 20, tend to produce more growth than lower volumes. Now I've said before that as low as five to 10 can still get you a lot of the gains that you want, but it's not optimal, it's not going to get you the most. And for those of you really serious about this that are putting in the work, just understand you generally need about 10 to 20 sets per week and again, that's a pretty well-established range that gets talked about in the industry by now and it's it holds up, based on the research. So that's that's volume for hypertrophy. Now strength training even though you do need adequate volume, it places greater emphasis on intensity over volume. Right, you can't do as many sets with near maximal weights without your performance tanking and having recovery issues and tons of fatigue. And that's where quality becomes more important than quantity. And that is why, again, to go back to the program I just ran, when I was building the base I was far sub-maximal. I was around 65, 70, 75% of my max, doing more volume, and then, as I got closer to my test, I ramped down the volume and increased the intensity.

Philip Pape: 14:17

Another thing that changes quite a bit is the rest periods. Strength training typically uses longer rest intervals between your heavy sets three to five, six, seven, eight, 10 minutes, sometimes even longer for super heavy, let's say deadlifts and this allows for your ATP-CP this is the adenosine triphosphate, creatine phosphate energy system to replenish itself. Right, it gets depleted very quickly. It also allows your central nervous system to recover and now you can go after maximal performance on each set, which is ultimately the goal, whereas traditional muscle mass or hypertrophy training often uses shorter rests 60 seconds, minute and a half, two minutes, three minutes I usually like two to three minutes for most, unless you are intentionally going after building your work capacity or doing a superset or circuit style training where you are just trying to get to those near failure reps quickly and the theory here is you're trying to increase your metabolic stress. However, however important here, current evidence suggests that longer rest intervals, even with hypertrophy, can actually enhance the muscle growth because they allow you to have more training volume, and this goes back to the volume versus intensity, versus effective reps arguments. A study by Schoenfeld compared one minute versus three minute rests in a hypertrophy program and found that the group that used the longer three minute rests achieved significantly larger muscle thickness gains.

Philip Pape: 15:55

The last thing here is exercise selection is a pretty important variable. Strength programs are gonna focus heavily on compound lifts, compound movements that allow for maximal loading. These are the lifts where you use multiple joints for maximum use of muscle mass and loading. And that would be your squat, your bench press, your overhead press, your deadlifts, your even rows and things like that, whereas accessory work is also chosen primarily to improve these main lifts rather than necessarily build muscle. So those might be developmental or targeted variations of the squat, the bench, the dead, the overhead, et cetera.

Philip Pape: 16:35

Hypertrophy programs can still be centered or foundational around compound lifts, so don't think that it just excludes them. And when we say compound lifts, we also have to expand our vocabulary to include all the variations of compound lifts. Like a Romanian deadlift is still a compound lift, a pull-up is still a compound lift. However, hypertrophy programs will also include more isolation exercises to target specific muscles from multiple angles. A bodybuilder might do flat bench, incline bench, decline, bench flies for chest development. They might do them all in one day with a body part split. A powerlifter, on the other hand, might just do their flat bench and maybe one or two variations both on or on a different day, like their other upper body day, to address weak spots, and might have some other work in there. And that's the big caveat that there is a big overlap here, because when you look at Louis Simmons and the West Side guys and again I know they were equipped, they were enhanced and all that but if you look at something like the conjugate method or really any power building program, you do see a combination of both, with the theory that one enhances the other.

Philip Pape: 17:48

So I want to translate this science into practical guidelines for your training based on your primary goal, and this is going to be a really important episode to come back to when you're wondering if the program you're looking at or the program you're designing is meeting the goals you intend. So if your main objective is maximal strength, maybe you are a competitive power lifter, maybe you just want to be as strong as possible and, by the way, you can cycle through going after strength, going after muscle, doing a little both. If your objective is strength, here's how I would structure your training. I would center your workouts on compound lifts, using primarily the, let's say, one to six rep range at 80 to 90% of your 1RM when you get close to hitting your PR. That doesn't mean you're always working in the 80 to 90%, and that's one of the many caveats I have to give you here because you're probably going to want to add some volume at lower percentages of your max as you build to those lower rep ranges. And we see this in some of the classic programs like 531, 852, where you're cycling through slightly higher rep ranges, slightly sub max, and then you're getting more intense at lower reps and then you're cycling through those. You're also going to take long rest periods, and by long I mean longer than you're probably used to, but sufficient to increase quality as much as possible.

Philip Pape: 19:13

Quality is more important than quantity here. So at least bare minimum three to five minutes between your heavy sets. You're going to focus on quality over quantity and that just means that your form it should always be important, but when it comes to really heavy lifts you've really got to be dialed in on your form. This usually means get a coach who knows what the heck they're talking about, which is also hard to find sometimes. But get a coach you know a starting strength coach is a great idea. Even if you're not doing starting strength, they can help you out. You can definitely reach out to me. I can refer you to people locally or online. There are good people. There are good groups where you could do form checks. I think quality is really important because you're only doing, let's say, three to five sets and you're not doing that many reps, but you're really having. You've got to make sure those reps are done well.

Philip Pape: 20:06

The next thing I think about with strength training training for strength is training with explosive intent Really important. Listen to me here. This is not wishy-washy. Even though the weight is moving slowly, you're going to try to move it as fast as possible on the concentric, like in a squat. That's the up part of the squat. When you're driving up with your hips, you're going to explode into that movement. You're going to at least think that way to maximize your motor unit recruitment. This is important. This is something I didn't understand for a while. You know a lot gets talked about tempo and time under tension which, by the way, is not a thing that is effective at all time under tension. But explosive concentric movement is important. The eccentric it can vary. It depends on what you're going for. It depends on if you're going to have a pause in there and everything. But the explosive intent is important.

Philip Pape: 20:56

Avoid training to failure. That is another important thing. Your programming should be designed where you are somewhat sub-max but still heavy and doing the right amount of reps so that you're at least probably two or three, if not four, reps shy of failure. Now, four reps shy of failure. That is quote-unquote. Six RPE and I rarely use I never use RPE as a training variable. I only use it as a lagging indicator, as a metric to evaluate how you did on something, but not as a metric to tell. I only use it as a lagging uh indicator, as a metric to evaluate how you did on something, but not as a metric to tell you how you should do something. That's where I differ from from some folks.

Philip Pape: 21:30

But you want to stop short of. You don't want to be in a total grind where it's an utter failure on your main lifts. The only time that should really ever happen is if you are testing a one rep max, then it it's, there's a chance it could happen, right? That's just because you're really trying to push to your max ever. And then here's the other thing people miss. Okay, beyond the novice phase, you want to have strategic accessory work in there, because you're going to have weaknesses and you have propensity for injury when you're constantly doing the same lifts and you haven't used variations of those lifts to try to shore up your weak spots. You're going to keep getting kind of stronger in the primary muscle groups involved in that movement while everything else kind of lags, and we don't want that, and that's why there's always a case to be made for some variety once you get past the novice stage. So that's my thoughts on strength training, and again, those are principles.

Philip Pape: 22:23

I noticed I didn't give you an actual program, because there's a million ways to do that, but I will suggest a few things later on. If your primary goal is hypertrophy, you want to look bigger, you want to look more muscular right, many of us want that. Even if we are trying to push big lifts, we still want that as well. Here's what I suggest. You're going to use a blend, a mix of compound and isolation exercises. So this is where you've got to have some targeted work in there to hit muscles from different angles.

Philip Pape: 22:52

You're going to work in a wide variety of rep ranges. You're going to work probably predominantly in the middle, like 6 to 12, which is equivalent to about 60 to 80% of your one RM. Notice, that's still pretty heavy. But you're going to include some lower rep work three to five potentially, which sounds like strength, doesn't it? And higher rep work 12 to 20. I mean, if you're doing a leg press, 15, 20 reps believe it or not, it can be super, super effective. That or hack squat or something like that and it's still going to feel pretty darn heavy and hard with all those reps.

Philip Pape: 23:25

Doing lots of reps is its own mental challenge compared to doing lower reps but heavy, and then you're going to take these sets pretty close to failure most of the time. If you're working in the low rep range, like three to five, you still may be more in that strength mindset of leaving a little bit in the tank. It should be two, three, four reps. But with most of the other stuff, your accessories and especially your isolation movements you're probably going to be around one to three reps of failure. You're rarely going to go all the way to failure, but it's totally doable to do that with something like bicep curls, where you just keep going, you keep going, you keep going and you literally cannot get another technical rep and then you failed and that's okay. But there are some things where you don't want to do that.

Philip Pape: 24:06

And then we mentioned volume. Volume is really important here because you want to accumulate enough volume to grow your muscles. So that is 10 to 20 sets per muscle group per week. If you are time starved, if you just have to be as efficient as possible, going as low as five could give you some results, but they're not gonna be optimal. So 10 to 20 is solid. The rest periods are gonna be, in general, two to three minutes, but some may be as low as a minute or even 30 seconds. Some small isolation work. Or, of course, if you're doing things like drop sets, mile reps, rest, pause sets things that I'm not even gonna get to detail on here but supersets things that I'm not even going to get to detail on here, but a lot of the fun bodybuilding stuff, supersets and so on. They're very time efficient ways to train and still get a similar result but fit more work into less time. But generally I'm thinking two to three minutes. So if I'm going to do pull-ups, I'm going to rest two to three minutes. If I'm doing moderately heavy barbell curls, I'm going to go two to three minutes. Now, if I'm doing 20 reps of dumbbell, hammer curls with rest pause sets, well, those by definition are going to be probably only about 30 seconds. You're also going to when you do bodybuilding or hypertrophy type work.

Philip Pape: 25:17

There is sometimes a benefit to having a really controlled eccentric. That's the lowering phase. Now, this is not because of time under tension. This is more so that you get that pause in the bottom and that stretch in the lengthened position, and it also makes it a little bit harder to come back. You're taking out the stretch reflex. I found that's really good for tendons and connective tissue as well. So one of the things I've learned a lot from injuries and surgeries is the value of pausing.

Philip Pape: 25:45

And when I do, for example, an easy bar curl, I don't just go all the way down and just smack it back up, back and forth like bouncing out of the bottom. I go all the way down almost fully unlocked. I don't go all the way 100% unlocked, but pretty close to it, where it's a very stretched bicep, I pause for a half second and then go again. It's not like I'm waiting down there for a minute, but try it out. It will make it a little harder, you will have to drop the load slightly, but you'll get in a very effective workout.

Philip Pape: 26:11

And then, of course, you want to train each muscle group at least twice per week, and this is more of the frequency variable that we didn't really touch on yet. We talked about intensity, we talked about volume, but frequency is also important, and you're going to want to hit every muscle group at least twice a week, not necessarily directly, right? If you hit triceps one day and you're doing close grip bench the other day, you hit your triceps twice. So directly and indirectly, but one at least once directly and then and then at least twice or more directly or indirectly. Total, now, that's strength and that's hypertrophy. But where most people get confused is well, I want both, like I want to have my cake and eat it too, and you kind of can.

Philip Pape: 26:53

Okay, this is where power building comes in. The quote unquote power building, and I have no problem with the term. Some people roll their eyes. Oh, power building, what is that? I don't think we have to judge the term, just define what it means. And so I think it's an excellent approach for intermediate lifters.

Philip Pape: 27:07

I got introduced to it through my coach, andy Baker. He's been on the show like three times, I think he has the record for being on the show, and since then I've discovered lots of other coaches who have a similar style approach to programming. It's a lot of fun. It covers both strength and hypertrophy, both styles. It helps you learn a lot about your form, about lifts, about how to program for yourself, about how to manage fatigue and recovery. I'm like a walking sales pitch for it because I think, like most, let's say, the guys I identify with in their forties who don't have a crap ton of time, they have some time and they dedicate time to training for sure, maybe four days a week for an hour, hour and a half, but they want to get both and they're like well, if I just focus on going after max PRS, my muscle development's going to lag. If I just go after bodybuilding, I'm going to not get those PRS that I really want.

Philip Pape: 27:55

Okay, you can, you can combine both, and so to do that, you're usually going to start your training session with a heavy compound lift or two in that strength regime, three to six rep range. Maybe you're cycling through whatever. You're then going to follow it with some accessory or targeted developmental work that gets you a little bit of hypertrophy, a little bit of strength support. Right, it works on your weak spots. But also maybe you're in the eight to 12 range for some muscle growth as well, and it really depends on the movement, some parts of your work training block you might be doing goblet squats as your variation, others you might be doing safety bar, heel elevated squats, and one might be more fatiguing than the other. So you're going to have to judge how many sets you're going to end up doing, how much rest you need and what rep ranges you work in.

Philip Pape: 28:44

And then you're going to include both strength specific exercises to support the you know, the competition lifts basically, but also bodybuilding style isolation work. So it's sort of a whole gamut, kind of like a spectrum, and it usually looks like compound accessory isolation, each of those being one or two lifts. So a total of anywhere from three to six, seven or eight lifts, depending on how much time you have and how many sets you're doing, how much volume you can take, how much recoverability you have. And then you're going to periodize your training over time. You might spend part of that time let's say four to eight weeks, not really doing many of the main lifts but just doing a lot of accessory versions of them and emphasizing hypertrophy. But then you might spend 48 weeks really just focusing a lot on the big lifts and again, nothing precludes you from going all in on strength for a while and all in on hypertrophy for a while, and all of this stuff recognizes the fundamental truth that strength and size complement each other, and you will be better for it if you do cycle through. I am not talking about program hopping. I'm talking about spending a methodical, dedicated length of time in one mode learn about it, grow from it, get everything you can from it and then say, okay, I have achieved some level of growth that is meaningful to me. Now I'm going to go and work on a different part of my growth, because that kind of variety itself can be very powerful. More muscles does give you greater strength potential. Getting stronger does allow you to use heavier weights for your hypertrophy work, and so it creates a virtuous positive feedback loop. I'm experiencing that right now. I just hit my maxes last week my squat bench and dead and now I'm back to doing a little bit more power building and I'm finding that I'm way stronger in a bunch of my accessory and isolation lifts. Well, great, what does that allow me to do? That allows me to build more muscle from those. You can't just stay stuck in one.

Philip Pape: 30:44

One of the guys I follow. He was on the show he owns Macrofactor he's part of Stronger by Science is Greg Knuckles. You guys know Greg Knuckles, If not, look him up. Great guy, respected, very respected strength researcher. He nerds out on this stuff and he summarizes this strength hypertrophy relationship perfectly. He said early on in training, muscle mass explains only a few percent of strength gains and in experienced lifters it can explain 65% or more. And I mentioned that earlier and I wanted to reiterate it here in a single quote. All right, when you start you've got to get strong and as you get more experience you can do a little of both, and this shows why an integrated approach is going to yield the best result. When you become more advanced and more advanced doesn't take long to get to. If you do this right, your novice phase might be six months long, maybe nine months, maybe a year max, but then you're an intermediate lifter, then you go after it.

Philip Pape: 31:39

So, as we clarify this relationship between strength and hypertrophy, I want to address some of the mistakes and misconceptions that could be holding you back right now listening to this, because you've heard it over and over in the fitness industry and it's just plain wrong. Okay, the first one is this notion that you must train super heavy to build muscle. Now I respect the starting strength guys, mark Ripoteau, I came through that world. It changed my life. Everyone should buy Starting Strength. In fact, I think Starting Strength is a phenomenal beginner program for anybody to follow and if If you just follow it, you're going to be golden.

Philip Pape: 32:13

However, there is a lot of discussion about how only training that way is sufficient to build muscle, and I know they don't always mean that. What they're saying is for novices don't worry about building muscle, just get strong and the muscle is going to follow. That is true, I do agree with that. But if your goal is to build muscle, you don't necessarily need the heavy close to maximum load training. Goal is to build muscle, you don't necessarily need the heavy close to maximum load training. Research definitively shows that moderate weights as low as 30% of your 1RM can build just as much muscle as heavy weights, provided the sets are taken near failure. The key is always again, mechanical tension and effort, not absolute load, and this is great news if you just want to enjoy the process of building muscle. You have joint issues. Maybe you have limited equipment that you can't get to those loads. You're just not interested in maximal strength. Now I still think that's going to limit you long-term in terms of overall size and muscle development, but you're still going to build a ton of muscle.

Philip Pape: 33:13

The second thing is the idea that you can get as strong as possible without focusing on building muscle, and I don't think the research supports that. I think, early on, getting as strong as possible is the way to go. It's very efficient. It's what you need because beginners can get stronger through neural adaptations without much increase in size, but advanced lifters almost universally need more muscle to keep getting stronger. If you've been training for years and your strength has plateaued, then focusing on hypertrophy for a while might be exactly what you need. And I hear it anecdotally every day.

Philip Pape: 33:46

Somebody says look, I took a break from going. After PRs, I worked on a more well-rounded training program for muscular development. I came back and a lot of my lifts increased. Now it doesn't mean it's gonna directly translate to a specific lift right away, but it's gonna allow you to get to new levels of maximal strength and I think that's an important caveat or an important nuance in that. For example, the program that I just ran I didn't just start right away in triples, doubles and singles in the hopes that I just ran. I didn't just start right away in triples, doubles and singles in the hopes that I was going to get new PRs. No, I actually took a step back and I did more volume to get exposed to the movement patterns while being in more of a hypertrophy range, and then I started to shift more toward the strength range as it supported my strength and then I could hit new numbers. Does that make sense? I hope that makes sense.

Philip Pape: 34:36

The third big myth is that getting a pump, feeling the burn, getting sore, means an effective hypertrophy workout. I am all for getting a pump. It's fun. It is fun and you will get sore when you're exposed to a movement for the first time or two. That's totally normal. And while metabolic stress contributes a little bit to growth, again mechanical tension is the primary driver. The more research has come out, the more we've discovered that's the case. A workout that leaves you pumped and sore is not necessarily better for muscle growth than one focused on progressively loading, using good form and getting that mechanical tension. And you know you're hitting mechanical tension. When you're somewhat close to failure and you're actually able to lift more the next time, I mean that's a really good indicator that you're getting it, not that you're sore, you're getting a pump, et cetera.

Philip Pape: 35:29

And then another misconception is thinking that bodybuilders are not strong or that powerlifters don't care about muscle, Because at the elite level I've talked to these guys directly or on the podcast, or I've listened to them there's a lot more specialization at the elite level and most successful bodybuilders are super strong. They could not get to the size they are without being strong. Most accomplished power lifters they've built tons of muscle mass. Just stop trying to separate them as if they are in separate vacuums. They are not the difference in those athletes. Their training emphasis and their competition goals cause them to train a bit differently, but their fundamental physiological adaptations are the same.

Philip Pape: 36:18

The last thing I want to say that is super important and useful program hopping is not going to help you. Program hopping between strength and hypertrophy approaches like really quickly, within just like a few weeks at a time, without giving it either time to work, is going to set you back for years. You're just gonna be stuck. You've gotta give it time and you have to have patience. Both strength and size development require consistently training, showing up to the gym, progressive loading over time, over months and over years period. I'm sorry to say it, but I'm not sorry, because once you get into it and you realize how fun the process itself can be, you are not fixated on that final number. There is no final number. I look back every year and I say, well, I wanted to accomplish X and I realized I accomplished Y, and Y might be more or less than X and it might be different than X, but I've grown and that's really important. And then you learn from that. But if you jump between programs every few weeks, you're not going to have the accumulation of adaptations, of volume, of even frequency, needed for significant progress. So stop doing it.

Philip Pape: 37:29

So now that we've covered the science and the practice, I want to give you one more thing that might change how you view your training career, and that's what it is. If you're listening to Wits and Weights, strength training should be at the top of your list numero uno. It is the driver of body composition more than anything else. Whether you're trying to lose fat, build muscle, whatever, look great, feel great, get lean, the relationship between strength and hypertrophy is going to change dramatically based on how long you've been training. So I want you to think about this your training career when you're a beginner a lot of you are. You're listening to me. You're thinking I got to get off the couch, I got to start training. Or maybe I used to work out years ago, I've got to get back to it. Or maybe I've been going to the gym for 10 years but I'm not really getting the results.

Philip Pape: 38:17

You're a beginner. You are a beginner. If you don't feel like right now you are constantly getting stronger and growing and building muscle, you're doing something wrong and you're a beginner and that's okay. I envy you because you could now, doing it the right way, get jacked and strong so quickly. And so beginners want to focus primarily on getting stronger. In that moderate rep range, I'll say four to six to really narrow it down for you. Right, fives are classically thrown out there because of starting strength and what is it called? Strong lifts? Five by five, all of those, but even like five to 10, you know, through compound lifts you're just going to get so strong and you're going to build some size.

Philip Pape: 38:56

Once you get past that first few weeks of neuromuscular efficiency and actually start adding new muscle, it is the most efficient path period. The neurological adaptations come quickly. They call them newbie gains. The moderate volume provides enough stimulus for initial growth. And then you have a lot of frequency in that you are like squatting every session. You're deadlifting every session and you can do that. Don't think that you need to squat once every two weeks. You're not advanced enough to do that. You need to do it frequently.

Philip Pape: 39:26

So a program like Starting Strength, as mentioned before, is ideal for this. And you know, if I remember to do so, I'm going to throw a link in. No, you know what, I'm not going to throw a link in my show notes. I already have a link to the workout programs from Physique University in the show notes and in that file. All you have to do is ask for it. You'll download it In that file. If you go to the novice tab, it actually mentions starting strength and it points you to resources, a walkthrough that I've done on it, all the things you need to know. It's all in there, okay, and I give you other options for novice programs as well. These things will produce strength and visible muscle gains. If you're a novice and those first six, nine, 12 months are magical, if you do it consistently, if you eat enough, if you sleep enough, it's amazing. I am jealous for you. You've got to get on that right now.

Philip Pape: 40:13

Now for intermediates who have been training for, say, one to three years, seriously doing it the right way, using a barbell, using heavy implements, whatever it takes to get stronger from wherever you were, wherever you started, power building, I think, is great. I think the power building approach might be I don't want to say yields the quote unquote best results. That's a subjective statement. But it gives you enough heavy work to keep developing that neurological efficiency and keep those movement patterns in there, but also sufficient volume, variety, frequency of smaller isolation work to continue building muscle. So it's a nice blend if you have the time and the inclination for it. It's also a lot of fun. I think it's a great way to just keep yourself motivated.

Philip Pape: 40:56

And now, if you're more advanced than that, if you're pushing four, five, six years of serious progressive training getting strong, building muscle, you're going to need greater specialization period. Your nervous system adaptations are pretty much tapped out. They've maxed out. Further strength gains are going to correlate very heavily on increasing your muscle size, as we've mentioned a couple of times already. I mean this is why elite power lifters include distinct hypertrophy blocks in their training cycle. This is why Westside has power building, slash hypertrophy work constantly in there. They've got speed work, they've got bands and chains accommodating resistance. All of this specialization.

Philip Pape: 41:36

You know you may have a part of your body that does not respond as quickly as others. Maybe it's your biceps, maybe it's your back, maybe it's your calves guys, you know the calves are tough for a lot of us Maybe it's your glutes, whatever it is that you want to get bigger, you might have to specialize, you might need more frequency or a more targeted approach. And so you know, when you just look at competitive power lifters including those and you understand why and conversely, bodybuilders right, who are advanced bodybuilders, they're going to spend time in some strength periods in the off season, when they're eating, when they're not dieting right, because dieting is a big part of bodybuilding leading up to competition. But in the improvement season, the off season, they're going to be pushing their strength in the key lifts, not to mention the accessories and the isolation work. They want to be able to handle heavier weights, they want to have better connective tissue and joint health and ability to handle their fatigue and their recovery. And they might not test their 1RMs all the time, but they will track their strength to ensure that they're actually improving and getting stronger.

Philip Pape: 42:40

So the surprising truth, I'll say, is that for most of us, who I would call enthusiasts or recreational lifters, the goals of strength and hypertrophy are not competing, they're complementary. And if you know how to balance and periodize both types of training kind of like, we balance and periodize fat loss and muscle building phases, calorie deficits and calorie surpluses, and it's based on your experience level, based on the year time of year, based on your personal preferences and enjoyment, based on how much stress you have right now, based on how much recoverability you have, based on your diet itself. Your diet and your training actually go hand in hand as to which one you focus on when. If you're trying to max out your PRs, you probably should be doing that while you're eating a bunch of food and sleeping right, not in a dieting phase. You're just not going to. So if you can do that, you can achieve impressive gains in both, and you're not going to sacrifice either. You're not. It's going to work out, it really will. And isn't that liberating to know that you do not have to choose between being strong and looking strong right, if you have smart programming, you can have both.

Philip Pape: 43:44

So the next time that you are designing your training program or evaluating whether you should follow this strength-focused program here, this power-building program here, this hypertrophy program here, remember a few things from this episode and re-review this episode. I think it's important. Number one both strength and hypertrophy training rely on mechanical tension, but they optimize different aspects of it. Number two is that strength requires heavier loads, usually up above 65% of your 1RM, ideally around 80% or higher to maximize the neural adaptations, the movement patterns. Number three is that hypertrophy can occur across a much broader range of loads, as low as 30% of your 1RM, as long as you're training hard, as long as your effort is sufficient to get close to failure, to get that mechanical tension.

Philip Pape: 44:33

Number four if you're a beginner, get strong, get strong in the compound movements, ideally with a barbell. Number five if you're an intermediate, blend heavy strength work with hypertrophy work and kind of work them both in in a power building style. That's usually an efficient way to do it. And then, number six, if you're advanced, you've got to specialize and recognize that size and strength will always continue to be interconnected. So I want you to understand the science at this point is pretty clear. We're not really fuzzy on this. If you understand the relationship between strength and hypertrophy, you can train more intelligently and efficiently, saving time, avoiding the confusion that plagues so many lifters out there that do not have a clue. And if you think you don't have a clue, listen to this episode at least two times and reach out for help.

Philip Pape: 45:20

Go, download my programs. Join Wits and Weights Physique University. We'll help you figure it all out. And by applying these evidence-based principles. That's what they are. They're principles. It's not specific methods or programs. It's principles. If you can apply them, you're going to optimize your results. You will, I guarantee it. It's physics, it's biology. It's going to work, whether your goal is to lift more weight, build more muscle or both, all right. So if you're ready to put these principles into action because that is what you need next, guys, ladies and gentlemen, you need action.

Philip Pape: 45:51

I've created a complete set of strength and physique focused workout programs from Whitson Weights Physique University. We drop a new set every month and I'm giving you the latest month if you use the link in my show notes and I've got programs in there for novice, intermediate, advanced, different levels of equipment, different days per week. The programs incorporate both strength and hypertrophy elements and they give you balanced development depending on where you are in your training age. There's a built-in log, there's exercise substitutions, there's links to videos. It's got everything. Guys, what are you waiting for? It's totally free. Go to witsowheightscom, slash free or, better yet, just click the link in the show notes to download your free copy today. Until next time, keep using your wits, lifting those weights, and remember, with the right training approach, you don't have to choose between being strong and looking strong. You can have both. I'll talk to you next time here on the Wits and Weights Podcast.

The Most CRITICAL Skill for Sustainable Fat Loss | Ep 296

Get 2 weeks free + your first trial in the Physique University, the program that helps ambitious individuals master the approach discussed in this episode with personalized guidance and community support at witsandweights.com/physique

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Frustrated by lack of progress despite tracking, training, and eating right? 

Learn why the most critical skill for sustainable fat loss isn't what you eat or how you train, but something far more powerful that most people completely overlook.

Without this skill, you'll likely abandon your efforts prematurely and end up back where you started—it's the ESSENTIAL skill for permanent fat loss results.

Main Takeaways:

• The 4 impatience traps that sabotage fat loss

• Why patience is the foundation that makes all other fat loss skills effective

• 5 practical strategies to develop patience during your fat loss journey

• How to shift from "how quickly can I lose this weight" to "how can I lose this fat for the last time"

Episode Resources:

• Join Wits & Weights Physique University and get your first challenge plus 2 weeks free: witsandweights.com/physique

Timestamps:

• 0:02 - Why patience is the most critical fat loss skill

• 4:13 - The most common impatience traps in fat loss

• 13:56 - Why patience is the foundation skill for sustainable results

• 19:31 - Practical strategies to develop patience

• 27:01 - The liberating truth about patience

The Most Critical Skill for Sustainable Fat Loss

Are you frustrated that fat loss isn’t happening as fast as you expected? You’re tracking, training, hitting your protein target—but the scale isn’t moving fast enough.

Here’s the truth: The most critical skill for sustainable fat loss has nothing to do with what you eat or how you train. It’s patience.

Without it, you’ll abandon your efforts too soon, get discouraged by normal fluctuations, and end up in the same yo-yo cycle that’s held you back for years. But when you develop patience, you unlock a completely different approach—one that leads to permanent results instead of temporary weight loss.

Let’s talk about why patience is the most overlooked fat loss skill, the common mistakes that sabotage progress, and the practical strategies to develop it.

The 4 Impatience Traps That Sabotage Fat Loss

Many people unknowingly set themselves up for failure by falling into one (or more) of these impatience traps:

1. Expecting the Scale to Drop Quickly and Consistently

The biggest mistake in fat loss is assuming the scale should go down every week in a predictable fashion.

But weight loss isn’t linear.

Your body regulates fluid retention, hormones fluctuate, and metabolic adaptation happens. Some weeks you’ll drop pounds, other weeks you’ll maintain—even if you’re doing everything “right.”

This is why trend weight matters more than daily fluctuations. If you panic every time the scale doesn’t move, you’ll be tempted to drastically cut calories, add excessive cardio, or quit altogether—all of which backfire in the long run.

2. Treating Fat Loss Like a Countdown

Many people start their fat loss phase thinking, “I have 16 weeks to lose 20 pounds.” But your body doesn’t care about your deadline.

Stress, sleep, training intensity, hormones, and genetics all affect the pace of weight loss. If you lock yourself into a strict timeline, you set yourself up for frustration when things don’t go exactly as planned.

Instead of focusing on when you’ll reach your goal, focus on how you’ll get there sustainably.

3. Expecting Perfection Instead of Consistency

You don’t need to hit your macros perfectly every day. You don’t need to train flawlessly every session. Fat loss happens because of consistent effort over time, not perfection.

If you expect perfection, one missed workout or one off-plan meal can feel like failure, leading you to throw in the towel instead of staying the course.

4. Assuming Fat Loss Should Feel Easy

You’ve probably heard, “Fat loss should be effortless.” That’s marketing, not reality.

Yes, the process can be simplified and made more efficient, but it still requires:

• Tracking and managing food intake

• Sticking to a calorie deficit

• Prioritizing protein and training for muscle retention

• Handling hunger and energy fluctuations

Fat loss isn’t miserable, but it does require effort—especially at first. The key is making it manageable and sustainable, not expecting it to be effortless.

Why Patience is the Most Important Skill in Fat Loss

Patience is what keeps you in the game when progress slows down. It’s what prevents you from making knee-jerk decisions based on short-term frustrations. Here’s why it’s so critical:

1. Patience Allows for Data-Driven Decisions

When you’re patient, you don’t panic over one bad weigh-in or an off week. You look at the trends over several weeks, analyze biofeedback, and make strategic adjustments—rather than randomly slashing calories or adding endless cardio.

2. Patience Leads to Consistent Execution

If you expect setbacks, fluctuations, and plateaus, you’re less likely to give up when they happen. Instead of questioning whether your plan is working, you stay consistent because you understand the process.

3. Patience Creates Space for Habit Development

You can’t overhaul everything at once. Patience allows you to master one habit at a time, whether it’s hitting your protein target, increasing daily steps, or improving sleep.

The mistake most people make? Trying to do everything perfectly from Day 1. That’s why most crash and burn. A patient approach ensures long-term success.

4. Patience Helps You Set Realistic Expectations

A sustainable rate of fat loss is 0.5–1% of body weight per week. That means:

• A 200-pound person might lose 1–2 pounds per week.

• A 150-pound person might lose 0.75–1.5 pounds per week.

Some weeks you might lose nothing. Some weeks you might see a bigger drop. But when you zoom out, you’ll see the consistent downward trend—as long as you stick with the plan.

5 Strategies to Develop Patience

You might be thinking, “That’s great, but I’m not a patient person.” The good news? Patience is a skill you can build. Here’s how:

1. Use the Right Metrics and Track Trends

• Weigh yourself daily, but only look at the weekly trend

• Track waist measurements and progress photos (the scale doesn’t tell the full story)

• Track strength and gym performance (muscle retention is key)

2. Focus on Process Goals, Not Just Outcome Goals

Instead of fixating on “I need to lose 20 pounds,” shift your focus to:
✅ Hitting protein 80% of the time
✅ Getting 7,000+ steps per day
✅ Strength training 3–4 times per week

The process is what gets you the results.

3. Celebrate Non-Scale Victories

Progress isn’t just about weight. Celebrate:

• Clothes fitting better

• Increased energy levels

• Strength improvements in the gym

• Better relationship with food

These are meaningful milestones that prove you’re on the right track—even if the scale is being stubborn.

4. Surround Yourself with Supportive People

If you’re around people who push crash diets, it’s easy to feel behind.

If you’re around people who understand long-term progress, it’s easier to stay patient.

Find a community (like Wits & Weights Physique University) where sustainable results are the norm.

5. Plan for Plateaus in Advance

Plateaus will happen. If you expect them, you won’t panic. Instead, have a plan:

• Look at the past 3–4 weeks (not just a few days)

• Check your adherence (are you actually hitting your targets?)

• Adjust if necessary, but don’t overreact

The Long Game is the Fastest Path

Ironically, the people who try to lose fat the fastest often fail the hardest. They crash diet, rebound, and repeat the cycle for years.

The people who take their time, focus on the process, and build sustainable habits? They get leaner, stay lean, and never have to "diet" again.

Fat loss doesn’t have a deadline. The only rush is the one you create in your head.

So take a breath. Trust the process. Stay consistent.

If you do that, you’ll reach your goal—and keep your results for life.

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https://witsandweights.com/free-call

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Transcript

Philip Pape: 0:02

Are you frustrated because your fat loss isn't happening as quickly as you expected? You're tracking, you're training, you're getting your protein, but the scale isn't budging fast enough. Today we're uncovering why the most critical skill for sustainable fat loss is not what you eat or how you train. It's something far more powerful that most people completely overlook. Without this skill, you're almost guaranteed to abandon your efforts prematurely and end up right back where you started. But when you develop it, you unlock a completely different approach that transforms quick-fix weight loss into permanent fat loss. Welcome to Wits and Weights, the show that helps you build a strong, healthy physique using evidence, engineering and efficiency. I'm your host, philip Pape, and today I want to talk about the critical role of something that many people don't have. Many people need to cultivate something that I didn't have for many, many years and I finally learned to develop, and that is the P word patience. This is not something that you're going to hear from someone trying to sell rapid results or overnight before and after transformations. Those quick fixes are exactly why so many people find themselves in perpetual weight loss cycles, where they lose and regain, and lose and regain the same weight over and over. Today we're going to talk about why patience isn't just a virtue. It is the essential skill that makes sustainable fat loss possible. Whether you're starting your journey today for the very first time the right way, or you've been stuck in a frustrating yo-yo cycle of quick results followed by the inevitable rebound, this episode will give you some of those practical strategies for developing this mindset that we need for lasting change, because, yes, it is a skill and yes, you can develop it Now, before we dive in. If you want to stop this cycle of temporary weight loss and instead build a system for permanent fat loss, I invite you to check out my semi-private coaching program called Wits and Weights Physique University. My team and I there provide personalized nutrition guidance, accountability, a supportive community that helps you master this exact patience-driven approach that we are discussing today. One of our members, nadine, recently shared quote the program has helped me reframe how I look at weight loss. Instead of fighting the process and suffering through it, I'm embracing it with less judgment each day. End quote. And Nadine, if you're listening to this, you know that when you started with us, even the idea of tracking was just a terrible thought, and I know you wanted to get that result and weren't sure quite how to get there and you are a winner because you embraced the process and now are a great example, and even a mentor, to others going through this. So if this sounds like what you're looking for, visit witsandweightscom slash physique or click the link in the show notes to learn more and join us. You'll get two weeks free. Your first challenge free. Kick the tires If you don't like, you can cancel. If you do, I hope you'll stick around. And again, that's witsandweightscom slash physique or click the link in the show notes.

Philip Pape: 3:22

All right, so let's get into today's topic on the most critical skill for sustainable fat loss, and I want to break it down into three sections. First, we're going to talk about the common impatience traps that sabotage your effort to lose fat, so that you're aware of them. Second, we're going to talk about why patience is the foundational skill, not training, not nutrition. That is all, quote unquote, easy to do once you have patience. Patience really is that important that makes fat loss possible. And then finally, of course, practical strategies to develop patients during this journey. So let's start by talking about the impatience traps, and I've worked with lots of clients who, when we get started, the first few weeks can be very difficult because we are not just jumping right into fat loss.

Philip Pape: 4:13

And if you want to work with me, if you want to get real, meaningful, sustainable fat loss, just know you're not going to see a drop in the scale in the first month and the reason you're not is intentional. We are trying to set up your system. We are getting you training effectively, we're getting you tracking your food, your measurements, your photos, your biofeedback, all of the things. So we have a good baseline, so we know where you actually stand and then we know your true starting point for the fat loss phase. Well, what happens sometimes with my clients is they'll understand that for the first few weeks and then they'll start their fat loss phase, maybe four or six weeks, in sometimes eight weeks depending on how ready they are. And they're doing all the things they're training, they're tracking, they're staying on top of their habits, they're getting the step count.

Philip Pape: 4:58

But then inevitably I get the message that says I'm so frustrated, the scale's not moving. We're already four weeks into the 16 week fat loss phase and I'm just struggling. I feel like I'm doing everything right and it's not working Right, and you could feel the underlying impatience in these messages. I take it personally, it's that sense of I should be further along or this should feel easier by now. And my clients are not alone in this. This is incredibly common and probably one of the most common frustrations of all, especially when you're conditioned to think about weight loss, specifically the scale moving, and it moving fairly quickly. So what I want to do is lay out the impatient traps that anyone can fall into, including my clients, when they get started with me, even after we have the conversation, even when we set expectations, and I have to be there for them to make sure that they can push through that mental roadblock and start reframing this into a process, into a sustainable system.

Philip Pape: 5:58

And the first impatience trap is you got it expecting the scale to move quickly and consistently, because when you're eating in a deficit, you might think the scale should drop predictably every week. In fact, I usually give my clients a simple little graph that shows them if they start at this point and things go well at a certain rate of loss. They're going to get at this point roughly around this time. But I also have a bunch of caveats. Like it never actually goes that way. It can go up and down. There are things that are going to challenge you along the way, that I'm going to be there to support you through, and at the end of the day, we are going to get you the result. But we'll have done it the right way, while developing your system that will allow you to do it time you want in the future.

Philip Pape: 6:43

Because weight loss is not linear. Your body regulates fluid retention, your hormones fluctuate, we've got metabolic adaptation that happens when you're losing weight. All of these things can conspire to mask fat loss on the scale for days or even weeks, especially when you get started. It's a transition. Your body is fighting your desire to drop energy and so it might hold on to more fluid. Or you could be training harder than you ever have in your life, especially if you're working with beer. You're going to be training the right way. That's going to cause some inflammation, some glycogen uptake you know glucose uptake some fluid retention that can pop the number on the scale a bit.

Philip Pape: 7:22

It's one of those things I'm like man, should I even get people training this quickly and having that effect where they're building muscle and holding fluid but it doesn't look as great on the scale? And then I always get. The answer always is yes, of course, because training is the number one stimulus to holding onto and building muscle. The second one is going to be how fast you diet or gain, in terms of whether you're able to do that. Going to be how fast you diet or gain in terms of whether you're able to do that. So a lot of things can mask fat loss for a while, and this is why I like trend weight and lots of other factors, because even if the trend weight is not moving but your waist is coming down, that's telling you maybe you're building a little muscle and losing some fat.

Philip Pape: 8:00

There's a lot of things that can mask it. And we have to be patient and even if this isn't the right deficit for you, that data will tell us it's not the right deficit. If you're in a true plateau, obviously we want to get through that as quickly as possible and I help people do that with as much data gathering as we have. But it still happens because your body is going to do what it's going to do and if you're measuring against an arbitrary timeline like well, I'm already four weeks in and we're supposed to do this in 16 weeks then you're going to feel like you're falling behind. By the way. This is a reason that I do monthly plans now instead of six month packages, which I literally just made that change not long ago. So I probably have quite a few clients today who came in on paid in full packages and now I do monthly. And the reason I do monthly is I don't want you to feel the pressure of a clock. So any clients listening who are like, oh, how do I do that? Can I switch to monthly? Just reach out and talk to me, because I am always transparent with this stuff and you probably have a great deal because you paid ahead of time. But if monthly is better for you, we can do that. Anyway, that's why I do that. So that's the first trap is expecting the scale to move quickly and consistently. It doesn't work that way.

Philip Pape: 9:09

The second impatience trap is treating fat loss like a countdown with a fixed end point, right. So again, these comments I sometimes have about feeling the pressure to lose and you haven't lost yet. It reveals that mindset, that conditioned mindset. Your body doesn't care about the timeline, it's going to adapt and it's going to do so at its own pace, based on countless factors your hormones, your stress levels, your sleep quality, your genetics, and these factors are always changing. Your body's always changing, even during fat loss. You are becoming a different person day by day, and so your expenditure, your metabolism is constantly fluxing through that and even though your coach might've said you know what we're going to try for a pound a week and you want to lose 16 pounds, so it's going to be about 16 weeks Again. Go back to impatience trap one. It doesn't always work like that. Sometimes it's faster, sometimes it's slower. Sometimes you need to go more aggressive halfway through or less faster, sometimes it's slower, sometimes you need to go more aggressive halfway through or less.

Philip Pape: 10:11

The third impatience trap is expecting perfection instead of consistency. What I mean by that is you are expecting of yourself that you have to do everything perfectly, that you have to get all your protein every day, that you have to hit your calories perfectly, that you have to be perfect that perfectionist mindset which, again, is super common. I have my own tendencies like that. It is a major reason that people abandon their fat loss efforts prematurely because they hit one imperfect week or even day and they decide the whole approach must be flawed, rather than recognizing that consistency over time, which means not perfection every day, but getting something done on that path. As part of that process, getting those wins every day more often than not, is going to matter way more than just a miss in a particular day or a particular week. And for some of you this is a big trap. For others it's not as big of a trap, so recognizing that is helpful.

Philip Pape: 11:07

The fourth trap is the expectation that progress should feel easy. This is important because there's too much overselling of how you work with me and I'm going to make fat loss so easy. There won't be any hunger, we're going to do it the right way. We're going to recover your metabolism. Blah, blah, blah. You're going to eat more and you're going to lose weight.

Philip Pape: 11:28

All of that messaging is terrible because even though fat loss shouldn't feel miserable 100% agree with that it also isn't effortless and I've probably been accused of using those terms as well in relative terms, but I apologize if it came across as disingenuous because in reality, trying to get enough protein, trying to manage your hunger using meal planning, those all require effort. You know hitting the gym, especially when the calories are low, it requires effort, and the irony, I guess, is which is a really nice irony is that if you're trying to do things in a perfect way like, let's say, you're trying to hit all your protein with just whole foods when you realize later that maybe you can have a couple scoops of whey protein to make it a little bit less difficult on yourself are ways to approach the process efficiently by using some upfront effort to then reduce the friction and the effort throughout the process so, while it's not effortless, you can make it more efficient. That, in fact, is what this show Wits and Weights is all about. It's figuring out all the things you don't have to do, then seeing what's left, working hard on those but to do them as efficiently as possible, like doing heavy squats and compound lifts. That's heavy, it takes effort, but it takes a lot less effort than beating yourself up with cardio and going to the gym seven days a week and stressing yourself out and making the calories harder to hit because now your body has adapted even further right and on and on and on right. That's a different type of hard that I don't wish on anybody, but it'll never feel easy. There's always some work that has to be done and, of course again, as a coach, I love helping people through that to find the thing that they can do most efficiently for their time and take the little bit of effort up front to put that in place, to put that system in place.

Philip Pape: 13:19

So these are the four traps expecting linear progress, fixating on timelines, demanding perfection and assuming it should feel easy. And they're the main reasons that I think people abandon fat loss efforts prematurely. And that's why I think it's the most critical skill for fat loss, because otherwise you're just not going to stay the course. And it's not that their approach itself isn't working, it's not that the information is inaccurate, it's that their expectations don't match the reality of how fat loss actually happens. And I suppose you could say that is its own form of information, but some of that information is colored by you as an individual. That's the key.

Philip Pape: 13:56

So then, if those are the traps, why is patient specifically the most important skill? Well, first, it allows you to make data-driven decisions right. So patience is the antithesis of patient. Patience traps right, and when you're patient you don't overreact to normal fluctuations, you collect sufficient data over weeks, not just days, and then you make adjustments based on trends over time. And then this prevents that all too common cycle of constantly changing your approach and hopping around, whether it's your program or your nutrition or what you're eating before anything has time to work. So if you have the data, it starts to give you that confidence over time and again. I see this with new clients who join my coaching program, where they've tried five different diets in the past year carnivore, paleo, intermittent, fasting, the whole thing and they never stick with any of them long enough to see if they actually work. Or paleo, intermittent, fasting, the whole thing and they never stick with any of them long enough to see if they actually work, or they white knuckle through longer than they probably should, whereas patience breaks this cycle by giving strategies enough time to demonstrate their effectiveness.

Philip Pape: 15:01

The second reason patience is so important it enables consistent execution, equals consistent execution. When you understand the natural ebbs and flows, the daily fluctuations, the temporary plateaus, they just don't throw you off. I know every day my weight could be up or down by like three or four pounds and when that happens I look at it and I say that's interesting, check, put it in my app, move on for the rest of the day. Is there a tiny piece in the back of my brain, in my primitive brain, that's still stuck in? Oh no, if you're trying to lose fat and the scale went up. That means it's not going in the right direction. Sure, there's always that tiny piece of doubt way, way back inside, but I've developed a skill of patience and I know that it's going to work because I've done it four or five times by now. I've helped hundreds of people do it, and it always works if you follow the right process. It may be harder or easier for different people, it may take longer, but it's going to work, and so that motivates you to keep executing the plan consistently, because you recognize these are normal parts of the process. You recognize these are normal parts of the process.

Philip Pape: 16:08

Third, patience creates space for developing your habits. Let me say that again Patience creates space for developing your habits. One of the biggest mistakes I see is people trying to change too many habits at once. Now, granted, if you're working with a coach like myself, I will have a list of things that we are going to work on. We don't necessarily hit them all at once, and if we do hit multiple ones, they're in a controlled way, with my support, and as soon as I see there's too much to handle, we strip them away. So there's a balance. There's always a balance. But don't go after too many habits than you can handle. Don't go after too many habits than you can handle. Patience allows you to master one habit at a time, building a sustainable foundation. In my client's case, that might be protein intake, that might be step count, that might be training, and every single one of my clients has one that jumps to the top and then the rest becomes sort of secondary or hey, you know, if we get to that, that's fine, but this is the one we're gonna focus on. And then, once that is in place, it gives you the energy and the space to work on the next one. And patience creates space for that, because you're not expecting to be a master at everything all at once. And then, fourth, is that patience allows for realistic expectations.

Philip Pape: 17:26

When you understand that fat loss is full of these ebbs and flows, you know that a reasonable rate is about a half to 1% of your body weight a week, and even that can vary significantly by the person. You know, for someone weighing 200 pounds, that's one to two pounds a week. And then there's going to be weeks with no apparent progress, despite doing everything right, and some weeks where you might achieve double that rate. You just don't know until you see it on the scale over time. And so the interesting paradox here is that people who try to lose fat as quickly as possible usually end up taking longer to reach their goals if they reach them at all because they're going to crash diet. They're going to lose weight rapidly, they're going to lose muscle as well, and then they'll rebound because they are just starving. They can't sustain the approach. They can't stay in such a deficit. Their training goes to heck that's me trying not to swear and they end up heavier than where they started.

Philip Pape: 18:22

In contrast, those who have a more patient timeline tend to reach their goals faster. In absolute terms I've said this before the long game is actually the fastest path to success. They lose fat at a moderate rate, they preserve muscle, they learn the sustainable habits and they stick those habits along the way, and then they don't experience this rebound and they're the ones that are successful for the rest of their lives. I've seen this play out every time with my clients. Those who want the fast track okay. They usually end up spinning their wheels for years, and I generally will not even take on a client who seems to have that mentality. Those who commit to the longer journey actually reach their destination, and oftentimes in less total duration, despite the slower pace.

Philip Pape: 19:11

So let's get a little bit practical here. How do you actually develop patience? Because you're listening to all this, you're like that's great, now I'm not a patient person, or I don't know how to be patient. Like it's great for you to tell me, philip, but what do I do? So I'm going to give you some actual strategies. How about that? We're going to give you five strategies. Hopefully this episode isn't going too long, but here you go.

Philip Pape: 19:31

The first strategy is to use appropriate metrics and measurement frequency. One of my favorites because it's related to tracking the right not to care about because of the fluctuations. So instead we're going to track every day, but then we're going to take the trend over roughly a three week period. We're going to take progress photos and circumference measurements weekly, but not necessarily care about each one. We're going to look at that over time. We're going to take your performance metrics in the gym and again, it's not doesn't matter if one day you miss some reps. I mean, I don't want you to miss reps. We're going to try to set things up so you don't miss reps. But if you do, if you have a weaker day, if you have an off day, so what? We're going to use that data to say okay, next time, here's what we need to. Frequency. And that's a key distinction, because some data points we do track frequently, like scale, weight and food, we're going to track daily, but we don't necessarily care about the daily number. We care about the weekly or twice or thrice weekly trend. My ability to use the word thrice, I was just able to do that.

Philip Pape: 20:52

Strategy number two focusing on the process goals rather than the outcome goals. This is a classic. Instead of fixating on I'm going to lose, you know, 20 pounds by this date, I want you to set a goal like I'm going to hit my protein target 80% of the days this month. That's an example of a process goal. And even then you're not, because it's for the whole month. You're not even looking at the day-to-day per se. Over a few weeks you're saying am I on track? And then you have time to correct, not feeling like it's all or nothing. Another one would be I'm going to train all my training days this week. I'm going to complete all my workouts, I just did them. It's not even about the metrics, just simple ways to get wins based on the process right, and those provide a lot of motivation. They help you build the habits to your desired outcome and, rather than harping on the things that are negative, celebrate the things that are positive and then just continue working on the other things, all right.

Philip Pape: 21:51

Strategy number three is creating meaningful milestones that are not just about the scale. You know you can celebrate for anything. You can celebrate when you consistently hit your step goal for a month, right Kind of a streak, when you increase your strength in the gym, when you find sustainable ways to incorporate more protein, like it doesn't have to be even the number itself, the amount of protein, but it could instead be the fact that you found an easy way to get your protein through some sort of snacks or protein shakes, or the timing of your food, or making something you really like that just surprisingly has a lot of protein, like, oh, shrimp, I didn't realize that was just pretty much all protein. And these reinforce, these meaningful milestones, reinforce that progress comes in lots and lots of forms. I mean practically infinite forms that you could make for yourself. You could gamify the whole process.

Philip Pape: 22:41

One of my clients from a long time ago his name was Elijah and he had a great example of this. He said, quote I see a visible change in how my arms fit in my shirts. I like seeing that I'm filling out these sleeves a bit better. I also like that. I'm noticing that change. I've also made rep PRs in the gym, which is exciting, so he kind of threw that in too. But just the visible change in how arms fit in shirts, it's a meaningful milestone for him.

Philip Pape: 23:03

Strategy number four building a support system that understands and values patients. Ah, this is a good one. This is a good one. This is being around people who encourage the patients, as opposed to around people that are all fixated on fast weight loss. You know, like, if you're around all people that are on you know this crash diet or on Weight Watchers, you're going to think like them. But if you're around a coach, a community, friends who get what you're doing, then it's easier for you to also be patient when they're patient.

Philip Pape: 23:33

And so the conversations I have with my clients, where I'm able to kind of talk, to all of that lead, so to speak, but also our physique university, where we have a whole slew of people at all different stages of their journey. And what's nice is when a new member comes in they can see from some of the longer term members how they've embraced that process and got the results. And it's really refreshing because they're like oh okay, I know it takes a bit of time and I know I have to put this in place, and doing that I know will also give the result. And when you get that result it's so fulfilling. One of my clients in there, charlene. She said quote I learned that I really do need the support and accountability from a group like this in order to succeed. And Jody said I learned that I do need the support from you and Philip so I don't just keep spinning my wheels, not going anywhere. These are just great examples of the value of accountability for achieving your goals.

Philip Pape: 24:24

Strategy number five is to prepare for plateaus in advance. Oh, this is a good one, you know. So here's the thing If you know plateaus are going to happen, if you assume they're going to happen and that they're actually a good thing, they're a normal thing, then don't wait until you're frustrated to figure out how you're going to handle those plateaus, having a plan for what you'll do when the progress stalls, whether it's your weight your training whatever, because it will stall for whatever reason for internal and external reasons can be massively liberating. And this could include reviewing your, say, previous progress photos to see the changes that the scale doesn't show, so that you know, when things don't feel to be changing, they actually are. It could be focusing on non-scale victories and it could be connecting with your support system, reaching out to say what do I do if this happens? Now, I know you can't anticipate every plateau.

Philip Pape: 25:20

Again, it sounds like I'm plugging coaching a lot here, but it's because this is my personal experience. When it comes to plateaus, it's nice to talk to someone who has seen them all, has seen all the plateaus and can help you kind of get ahead of that. So the key thing here is that patience is not passive. It is an active skill. It involves making deliberate choices about how you measure progress, about what to focus on, about who to surround yourself with and how you respond to challenges. And what's nice about that is it's not that I'm asking you to get patience. That's not a thing. You can't just cultivate patience out of nowhere. You do it by taking specific actions and building the skill, and the most patient people I know are not naturally more patient than anyone else. I'm raising my own hand. I can be extremely impatient, but what these people have, and what I've had to have for myself, is a better system. A better system that accounts for the realities realities of whatever.

Philip Pape: 26:21

In this case, we're talking about fat loss, but it could be any process, and that means I don't have to rely on willpower. I know what will or could happen and therefore I've got a system to handle it. And so think about what we call patience in the context of fat loss. It's really just proper expectation setting combined with the right feedback mechanisms. That's all it is, and when you know what to expect, when you have appropriate ways to measure progress, then consistency becomes easier, rather than it being something that you just have to find right. I know what to do, I just need to do it. No, that should be the way that we do it. We should have a system, so it just happens, and that's, again, extremely liberating.

Philip Pape: 27:01

With this whole thing, you don't need to magically become a more patient person overnight. You just need better systems that allow you to trust the process, and I get that that's difficult when you're doing this the first time, and it takes a while to see some of those results. So that's where you have to lean into some of what I've been telling you today. So when my clients come to me and they're frustrated early on because they're not seeing the scale move, first of all I send them an encouraging message. I say something like hey, I see how frustrated you are. That's definitely not where we would hope to be by now. But I'm here to help you and we could adjust your approach to make sure that you have targets that are both easier to hit and refocus on the progress you've already made. Build on that and then also look at areas where we're maybe underperforming whether it's by choice or because that's how your body's responding and then work on those things. Whether it's your training right I'm thinking of a recent client who just needed a training adjustment because she had dumbbells and a TRX system and wasn't able to get to a barbell anytime soon. So I said, all right, let's work with that. Let's just work with that so you get the progress because it's going to be fine.

Philip Pape: 28:11

And then when the clients are able to step back and see these little forms of progress that then become bigger forms of progress, and then the real big progress starts to happen in terms of fat loss, the perspective tends to shift over time. So I'm kind of I'm rambling a little bit today and being a little vulnerable. Maybe I'm saying things I should or shouldn't, I don't know. This is just what's in my head. I hope you resonate with what I'm saying, and I want to leave you with a quote from one of my clients who went through this and then a few weeks later she said quote I realized I was too focused on the timeline and not enough on the process. Now that I'm tracking more than just the scale, I can see I'm making real progress and I'm actually enjoying the journey. Her relationship with the process had transformed.

Philip Pape: 28:50

When you shift your mindset from how quickly can I lose this weight to how can I lose this fat for the last time, everything changes. The timeline extends, but so does your likelihood of success, and so, at the end of the day, you actually get the results sooner and it's sustainable and ultimately, isn't that what matters. So my final thoughts to you are that patience is it's an essential skill because without it, having all the nutrition knowledge, training, expertise, tracking, diligence in the world will not produce the result. With patience, you give yourself one of the greatest gifts in fitness. It's the thing that is tied to the speed of light that we can't change, and that is time, time, time. You can't change time, so with patience, you actually flex into it. You give yourself time to adapt, you give yourself time for habits to form, you give yourself time for sustainable methods to work, time to build a physique and a lifestyle that you can maintain for life.

Philip Pape: 29:47

So, if you take nothing else from today, I want you to remember that your fat loss timeline is probably longer than you think, and that that's actually good news, because the goal guess what? It isn't to lose fat. It's not, it really isn't. It's to become someone who naturally maintains the healthiest, strongest, leanest physique for you through habits that feel sustainable and that takes time right.

Philip Pape: 30:13

Fat loss doesn't have an expiration date. There's no rush, except the artificial one that we create for ourselves. So I want you to take a breath, trust the process, focus on non-zero days being consistent. Don't try to be perfect. Know that with patience, you will reach your goals. Probably not as quickly as you hoped, but much more permanently than you may have thought possible. All right, if you want to build this patience, muscle this skill, with some guidance and support, that will accelerate the process, which sounds ironic since I just talked about patience, but there are accelerators in this world.

Philip Pape: 30:51

I invite you to join us in Wits and Weights Physique University, where we will help you develop an approach that aligns with the realities of fat loss. It's going to provide accountability when your patience is tested. That's when you need the support, not when things are going well, and then we can help you celebrate all these forms of progress. Go to witsandweightscom slash physique or click the link in the show notes to learn more. Join. Get the two-week free trial, free first challenge. Join a community of action takers who are in it for the long haul getting those results. Your transformation awaits witsandweightscom slash physique. Until next time, keep using your wits lifting those weights and remember that patience isn't just waiting for results. It's building the foundation that makes those results permanent. This is Philip Pape, and you've been listening to the Wits and Weights podcast. I'll talk to you next time.

How Melanie Dropped From 24% to 16% Body Fat (and Still Got Stronger) | Ep 295

Book a FREE 15-minute Rapid Nutrition Assessment to audit your training and nutrition strategy, identify your #1 roadblock, and give you a personalized 3-step action plan in a fast-paced 15 minutes.

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Can you build muscle while losing fat, or is it just a myth? What if shifting your focus from aesthetics to performance is the missing piece?

I sit down with my client Melanie, who transformed her body by aligning her training, nutrition, and mindset. She dropped from over 24% to 16% body fat while gaining over three pounds of muscle, without giving up her daily treat!

Today, you’ll learn all about:

03:20 - The power of accountability in staying consistent
05:05 - Why she prefers working with a coach
07:38 - The mindset shift from aesthetics to performance
09:17 - How minor nutritional tweaks accelerated fat loss
11:06 - The impact of sprinting on her physique
16:29 - Strength gains while losing fat
24:53 - Why trusting the process is key
31:51 - How a single daily treat helped her stay on track
42:50 - The power of meal prepping and planning for success
47:44 - Outro

How Melanie Dropped From 24% to 16% Body Fat While Getting Stronger

If you’ve ever wondered whether it’s possible to lose fat while gaining muscle and getting stronger, Melanie’s story proves that it is. She dropped from 24% to 16% body fat, gained over three pounds of muscle, and improved her lifts—all while maintaining a sustainable approach to training and nutrition. Here’s how she did it.

Shifting From Aesthetics to Performance

When Melanie started, her primary goal was aesthetics—losing body fat and achieving a leaner physique. But as she progressed, she realized that focusing on strength and performance not only helped her stay motivated but also contributed to her fat loss. By setting strength goals, she kept pushing herself in the gym, leading to muscle growth and a more sculpted body over time.

Key Takeaway:

• Focusing solely on fat loss can be frustrating. Strength and performance goals provide tangible progress markers that keep you motivated.

Accountability and Coaching

Melanie had worked with a coach before, but after a break due to personal circumstances, she found herself struggling to regain consistency. Seeking accountability, she worked with me to develop a structured, evidence-based plan that aligned her training and nutrition. She trusted the process, made small adjustments along the way, and stayed the course even when progress felt slow.

Why Coaching Helped:

• Removed decision fatigue—she didn’t have to guess about macros, deficits, or meal timing.

• Provided accountability, keeping her committed to the plan.

• Helped her adjust strategies based on how her body responded.

Key Strategies That Led to Success

1. Nutrition Adjustments: High Protein, High Fiber

One of the first major shifts Melanie made was increasing her protein intake. As she got leaner, we upped her protein to preserve muscle mass and optimize body composition. She also added more fiber, which helped with digestion, satiety, and overall gut health.

Why It Worked:

• Protein keeps you fuller, supports muscle retention, and has a high thermic effect.

• Fiber helps regulate digestion and reduces bloating.

2. Experimenting with Training & Sprinting

Instead of cutting more calories when her fat loss slowed, we introduced sprinting to increase her energy expenditure without excessive dieting. The result? A noticeable increase in leanness without sacrificing muscle.

Why It Worked:

• Sprinting is an efficient way to burn fat and improve metabolic health.

• It allowed her to keep food intake higher while still progressing.

3. Sustainable Nutrition: The Power of Flexibility

Melanie was consistent with her diet but also enjoyed small treats. She had one Ferrero Rocher chocolate every day—her "non-negotiable." This flexible approach helped her stick to the plan without feeling restricted.

Why It Worked:

• Sustainability matters more than perfection.

• Allowing small treats prevents cravings and bingeing.

Trusting the Process

Even with a solid plan, there were moments of doubt. Melanie sometimes felt frustrated when the scale wasn’t moving as expected or when changes weren’t immediately visible. However, she kept coming back to a fundamental truth—fat loss takes time, but it will happen with consistency.

Key Mindset Shifts

• Progress isn’t always linear—fluctuations happen.

• Every meal is a fresh start; one indulgence doesn’t derail the plan.

• Trust the science—energy balance always wins.

What’s Next for Melanie?

Now that she’s hit her fat loss goals, Melanie is focusing on getting stronger while maintaining her results. She’s considering a potential muscle-building phase in the future but, for now, is prioritizing strength progress and enjoying her maintenance phase.

Takeaways for Your Own Fat Loss Journey

1. Strength Training is Key – Lifting weights while losing fat helps maintain (or even gain) muscle, improving your physique.

2. Nutrition Should Be Structured but Flexible – Hit your macros, but allow room for foods you enjoy.

3. Fat Loss Takes Time – Impatience is the biggest killer of progress. Trust the process and stay consistent.

4. You Can’t Outwork a Bad Diet – Proper nutrition makes all the difference.

5. Sprinting Can Be a Game-Changer – It’s a simple, effective way to burn fat without cutting more calories.

If you're struggling to lose fat while maintaining strength, take a page from Melanie’s playbook: align your training, nutrition, and mindset for sustainable, long-term results.

👩‍💻 Book a FREE 15-Minute Rapid Nutrition Assessment:
https://witsandweights.com/free-call

🎓 Get your first challenge FREE (plus 40% off for life) in Wits & Weights Physique University (WWPU) using code POD40

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👋 Let's connect! Ask a question, get my FREE newsletter, or find me on Instagram

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Transcript

Philip Pape: 0:01

If you've been consistently lifting weights and monitoring your diet, but you're still not seeing the body composition changes that you want and you're starting to question is it even possible to lose fat while maintaining or building muscle? This episode is for you. Today, I'm talking with Melanie, who transformed her physique by shifting focus from aesthetics to performance and getting stronger, dropping from over 24% to just 16% body fat, while actually gaining over 3 pounds of muscle and seeing her lifts go up. You'll discover what helped her achieve these results and the two most important factors of success in aligning your training, nutrition and mindset to achieve any physique goal. Achieve any physique goal. Welcome to Wits and Weights, the show that helps you build a strong, healthy physique using evidence, engineering and efficiency.

Philip Pape: 0:55

I'm your host, Philip Pape, and today I've invited on one of my amazing clients, Melanie, to talk about her results and how she got there Now. Melanie came to me initially with aesthetic goals. She had quite a bit of experience in the past with different programs and even some success, and she wanted some guidance and accountability. Together, we started shifting her focus from not only aesthetics but also strength and performance, and she dropped around eight and a half percent body fat. She'd simultaneously built three pounds of muscle at a fairly, I'll say light body weight, and we'll get into some of the numbers and she developed a sustainable approach that keeps delivering results, and more to come. So today you're going to learn how she did this, how you can apply these lessons to your own journey, some of the challenges along the way.

Philip Pape: 1:39

Melanie, I thank you so much for joining me today, Hello. So let's start with some background, because I think that's where people want to understand, like, what were you doing before and then what happened throughout this process? Just to share a little bit about yourself what led you to seek out coaching, Because I know you've worked with a coach before, somebody who I know quite well. Feel free to share as much as you want about that.

Melanie: 2:02

Okay, after the birth of my second kid in 2014, I kind of realized my body wasn't springing back as it used to. So I sought out some nutritional guidance from Paul Salter, who you just mentioned, and I worked for him for gosh, almost eight years. He took me through a bunch of deficits and a bunch of maintenance cycles and everything, and then about two years ago I had kind of stopped with him because I had a family medical issue that I had to attend to overseas and when that happened, basically all nutrition and all fitness went out the window because it was for an extended period of time. When I got back stateside I was really struggling with being consistent with anything, not because I didn't know how to, but I think personally, for me, accountability is kind of what at least gets me started, and then I can you know, once I've kind of seen the results, I can maintain it for the most part, and I think that's where I was struggling. Paul had recommended you, and so that's how we connected.

Philip Pape: 3:13

Yeah. So for folks who follow the show for a while, paul's actually been on twice. I was on his show and he he definitely has his careers evolved. He went into hypnotherapy and I think he works with golf experts and professionals now Unless you're a golfer, but good guy. And what's really cool is that you know I know there's different coaches at different levels and you already had coming in, I can tell like a deep knowledge of you, know the basics for sure, like macros and how that works, but even some more advanced techniques, as well as a pretty high level of awareness on some things like your connection with food, your own body and how it responds. And yet there's still more to learn. Right, there's always more to learn.

Melanie: 3:54

Yes.

Philip Pape: 3:54

And so when you say accountability gets you started and then you're able to maintain, I guess people want to know does that mean I need to work with a coach for eight years or for 20 years or for all my life? What's the value of this Like? What's going on there? They want to know.

Melanie: 4:09

So the reason I worked with Paul for so long was because he was amazing. Number one, number two, I kind of wanted to push my body as far as it could go because I had a lot of time, back then at least, and so if I wanted to do a maintenance cycle and then I wanted to do a deficit and I didn't want to do the deficit on my own, because it's one of those things where I just want to outsource it to someone else I didn't want to have to have the mental, do the mental work of thinking what should my macros be? How long should I do this for? Because I had the privilege and luxury of working with a professional and being able to afford one. So that's kind of why we did it that way, and I'm one of those weirdos that actually likes being in a deficit.

Melanie: 4:52

It's something about just knowing that. That's what it is and I don't have to tweak anything. Somebody is telling me exactly what to do. My brain is now freed up to have to make decisions about other things. So I think that's where working with a coach for me comes into play. Even when I was working with you right, it was I just trusted you a hundred percent, whatever you said to do, except maybe give up that one chocolate a day. I was like, okay, fine, Because at the end of the day everything is almost reversible, right, like if it didn't work out we could tweak it to see how my body would respond to something. It's it's. It was a learning process for the both of us, cause it was the first time you were working with me to see how my body would respond to what we had kind of programmed, if you will.

Philip Pape: 5:39

You said so much good stuff in there. Seriously, and I know it's just like natural to you no big deal, but like for sure, having a professional to create a plan is helpful, because sometimes we say, well, just just listen to Phil's podcast and you'll learn all about. Uh, you know the macros and what rate of fat loss to go at it, whatever. But even that can be overwhelming because you're like for me, I have very specific goals and as specific body weight and specific whatever training plan, what do I do? And so it isn't just information, it's information crafted and structured and tailored to you, the liking being a deficit. Well, let's get back to that one. Let's pin that one for a second, cause that'll be interesting, and I know I like working with you, melody, cause you've got you've got some cool no-transcript.

Philip Pape: 6:34

It's to seek someone who is going to work with you, to learn with you, to be humble, hopefully somewhat humble where they need to be, and then maybe more assertive where they're not they don't need to be, and then maybe more assertive where they're not they don't need to be. And things like you know how you were able to build muscle even at a fairly lean body weight. You know leanness, body composition as well as lean weight and still able to build muscle, but because the numbers don't move as much magnitude wise for you, like compared to a 300 pound dude. You know it's like how do we tease out what exactly is happening? And then also the fact that you want your Ferrero Rocher. Let's just admit like I was like okay, I'm not going to push that one, don't worry. Flexible diet, that's what we're here for. So yeah, I just want to rephrase everything I just heard you say, which I think is valuable as far as liking being a deficit.

Melanie: 7:26

Tell us more about that. I think that's mostly a control thing. Right, it's like it's. It's knowing that I can push my body to somewhat of an extreme obviously we're not doing bodybuilder type deficits or whatever right, but for me that's somewhat of an extreme compared to my maintenance and knowing that I can do it. So there's some sort of control that goes in there that I enjoy, that I can do it. So there's some sort of control that goes in there that I enjoy.

Melanie: 7:50

When you're in maintenance there's a little bit more leeway of kind of going off your macros a little bit, right, like if your macro was, I don't know, like 70 grams of carbs or whatever, if you're in maintenance, it's not that big of a deal if you even for a week, go over it.

Melanie: 8:01

Right, because you're in maintenance and it's life and you're supposed to be able to enjoy life when you're in a deficit. Theoretically you shouldn't be in a deficit for a prolonged period of time. So there is more of a hey if you want to really maximize your results in this short period of time and short because it's completely relative to each person you will get the results you get based on how well you adhere to your prescribed program, if that makes sense. So there is a, and I kind of enjoy just knowing hey, for me it's kind of this control thing. And then the aesthetics part of it. You do see the weight shed and you do see your body recomp happening, and that kind of just motivates you to kind of keep on track as well. So there's, you know, there's two aspects to it, for me at least.

Philip Pape: 8:54

Yeah, and speaking of the physique, you know your body was fairly sensitive, I think, to like glycogen and carb swings right, where, like you know, you can sometimes get some bloating and fluid retention, sometimes not, and I think you even started to get used to when and why that would happen. As far as the control, I totally understand that. I think people need to understand I've said this before fat loss is not a joy ride. It's not fun in the sun. It is a goal, it's a change, it's a little bit of discomfort and you're forcing your body to release energy and the question is how fast and hard and long do you do that for? And that's the sustainability piece. It's not like when people say, well, you can do it without hunger and you can do it without whatever. No, you're going to have some hunger, right, and you have to control something. So when you said control, I thought of okay, the structure that we put in place here is not just the rate, but also the fact that you have certain amounts that you can eat, like there literally is a physical amount of stuff you need to eat and the more volume type foods you can have, the more like physical volume you can eat, but still the calories are limited. And you said something in one of your check-ins. I have a whole bunch of quotes from you here, so I'll see if I drop them in One you said I can still have fun and eat with other people and be mindful about portion sizes. Super simple, but literally that is the thing that you're restricting. You're not restricting what you eat and having fun, right?

Philip Pape: 10:16

Tell us about some of the experiments we tried. I know you didn't necessarily do everything I suggested. I don't mean it like that. I mean it like sometimes I said, hey, this is something we could try if you want. Like I would give you the option, such as you know what we would like go higher protein when the calories were getting lean. Or I know, more recently we talked about sprinting. But is there any particular experiment that comes to mind that you wanted to bring up?

Melanie: 10:39

So I think there's two things, everything that you mentioned. There's two things that I clicked with that I thought worked for me. There were other things, obviously, but those were the ones that resonated for me, maybe three actually adding fiber to my diet I forgot to mention that when we actually started working together, I was coming off, basically, like I mentioned, off that medical issue with my family. I was not eating at that point in time and it was a struggle for me to even get calories in, and so then you kind of had me just get to maintenance before we even went into a deficit obviously, and that was a struggle at the very beginning. Then obviously your body gets used to it and blah, blah, blah. But cut to me, being 47 now I think, and as you get older, I think, fiber becomes much, much more important, and that was something that was just not on my radar and so you asked me to introduce fiber. That was super helpful just in terms of bloating to some degree, that I noticed. One of the other things that we also strategized with was increasing protein, and when we started doing that, I noticed just a very perceptible drop increase in leanness. It was a visual, um, visual increase in leanness. For me, when we added protein. And then the other thing that actually kick-started it was when we added protein.

Melanie: 12:03

And then the other thing that actually kickstarted it was when we introduced sprinting.

Melanie: 12:08

Yeah, and that was towards the tail end, and one of the reasons we did that is because we didn't really want to take away calories, because I was already in such a very low I was already at low numbers and I probably would have become super cranky if we had taken it even lower. So we looked at other ways of managing the balance of energy expenditure and intake and one of those things was well, let's increase the energy expenditure and we just did sprinting, and that I mean after a week or so of it. It feels good. Obviously, the endorphins are firing and you feel like a youth again. You're like I can sprint, I can do this, but it also does kickstart that leanness again. So those were three of the strategies that you had mentioned that really clicked for me and I'm still doing the fiber thing, obviously, and I'm still doing the protein thing. I'm not doing the sprinting as often anymore, maybe like once a week, just for fun at this point, just because it's like a fun thing to do now.

Philip Pape: 13:02

Yeah, yeah, I'm sprinting more as well. I'm right with you and I'm telling more and more people about it. There's going to be an episode coming up about sprinting which actually might have preceded this one by the time this comes out. So, yeah, I mean for fat loss, I almost wish we had done it even earlier, just to see what would happen. And this is again the part about like not every coach knows everything and we're always learning and your coach should be learning.

Philip Pape: 13:23

But the protein is an interesting one because, again, because you're fairly lean, operating on low calories, low body weight, those small changes in macros can make a big difference and we don't always know why. I can go through the science of the million things that protein does and still we don't always know 100% why. For you, for Melanie, it causes a little bit of leanness. It could be that you were just carrying a little bit less fluid from glycogen, or it could have been that you literally were burning a little more calories because of the thermic effect of food. You never know. The fiber let me tell you, melanie, lately, these carnivore episodes I put out the amount of trolls you get on YouTube about how amazing carnivore is and you don't need fiber to survive and all I want to say is like there's a lot of things you don't need to survive, but let me tell you how beneficial these are and I fear for their gut, like years down the line, by not having any fiber at all.

Melanie: 14:13

Well, I mean, on that note, you know, being the age I am, I had to get my colonoscopy this year. I think we had yeah, it was while I was working with you. Obviously, and the thing that the Klonos the guy that does it stresses, he's like he just said, the majority of Americans do not get nearly as much fiber as they should. So you can either supplement I mean he was mentioning the standard fiber in the orange canister that you get at the grocery stores or whatever but you know, to each their own, like you had mentioned, you have. You actually have a list in all the documentation that you give us. You know a wealth of information. You have a list of fiber rich foods. You don't have to take a supplement. You can if you want to, but you can also get it from fruits and veggies and all that stuff is just playing around and seeing how it works for you.

Philip Pape: 15:02

Yeah, yeah, and people make excuses with that stuff and I'm like an apple has like five grams of fiber. So if you need 10 grams of fiber, two apples like we'll get you. It's not a big deal, it's just so people are. People are such a dearth of fruit and nutritious foods and that it's a game changer. So all right, so really cool. We're kind of getting into the weeds, but they're good weeds to get into. I do want to know that. I do want to help people understand. When you came to me with the, I'll say, aesthetics goal, which we all have, that and, frankly, the vast majority of people I work with that's one of their goals. Right, it's not the only goal necessarily, but you also did shift toward this focus on strength and performance and had some strength progress, even in fat loss. That, if I'm recalling our data right. Yeah, tell us about that. Like the mindset shift and then also the process.

Melanie: 15:47

So initially, like you mentioned, I came with a set of goals, just because I was probably half a size bigger than I usually am, so my clothes were getting snug and it was just affecting my mental state of you know, I feel like I'm doing everything right, but it's not. You know, it's not working. So I should probably reach out to an expert slash professional again to kind of just get on the right track. And then kind of, when we got into it just because for me, as you mentioned, it wasn't necessarily that I had a weight goal right, it was more what I looked like that I wanted to achieve, because it was a slower process for me, uh that I would imagine a lot of people uh, we kind of shifted to.

Melanie: 16:31

Well, let's, let's look at some other goals. Let's see if we can reach a number on our deadlift or on our squat or whatever. And the magic of it is, as you get stronger, you build more muscle, which builds more fat, which helps you achieve your aesthetic goal anyway. But it's just shifting your mind to it's a more achievable goal in a shorter amount of time than maybe the aesthetic goal that you're looking for. So it's these small wins along the way that keep you motivated and keep you in the game, because you're just achieving these small wins and not you can't always focus on the big prize right at the beginning. You kind of have to achieve these small goals to get to that big prize. And it was just a way of reframing hey, what can we do and what can we achieve in the next two weeks, Kind of a thing.

Philip Pape: 17:19

Yeah, I'll put it this way Even if it weren't getting you a meaningful change in that short period, the fact that you had something to focus on that was moving forward, like. Like that's what people need to find for themselves, whether that's their step count or their protein or their lifts. The nice thing about training is you could always make progress. It doesn't mean the weight on the bar is always going up for a lift, for the max rep, but something should always be moving and then that's a great sign.

Philip Pape: 17:43

Now in fat loss, honestly, Melanie, I know we've gone back and forth on the numbers, but people don't often build muscle at all during fat loss and it's hard to say how much of your lean mass was muscle. But out of the roughly you drop 8.5% of body fat and of the pounds that you dropped, you gained about a third of that value as muscle, which is pretty nice ratio. So in other words, it's a one to four ratio of muscle to fat, but in a fat loss phase, which usually you're trying to count the ratio when you're gaining. Anyway, where I'm going with this is like, how did this performance focused approach feel for you as it went forward Like how are you going to carry that forward into the future? Has it changed your approach at all, or what are your thoughts around that?

Melanie: 18:26

No, I mean, I'm still continuing. I still have a goal of certain numbers to reach on some of the big lifts, and so you know every mess of cycle because I follow a program that's broken down into mess of cycles I'm kind of increasing my one rep max because I am still getting stronger, and even more so now that I'm in a maintenance phase, right, so my body has the energy to kind of push through it even more. So that's always going to be a goal. It's like how many pull-ups can I do? How many, you know, because you always still want to be fit, I'm still young, and so it's one of those things where I'm happy, where I am aesthetically. So now I've got another, not necessarily a goal, but I just want to keep on moving the needle, at whatever rate that means for me.

Philip Pape: 19:13

Yeah, and I'm going to put you on the spot. Like are you open to building and gaining, to build muscle.

Melanie: 19:18

So that one is tricky. Just because I I feel like when I am actually, when I am actually um over my maintenance weight, if you will, because I am building, I feel more sluggish. Personally I feel more sluggish, which means then when I'm not as quick on the weights I can't pull my body weight up doing pull-ups. But I haven't actually worked with a coach in a building phase. So who knows what that would look like? And I know, in order to show that muscle at least from what I've read and you can correct me if I'm wrong you kind of have to build. You have to build muscle in order to kind of shape it right. So Paul was very unsuccessful whenever he broached that subject up with me. You might have better luck down the road, but right now I kind of like where I am.

Philip Pape: 20:06

And look, there's no right or wrong answer.

Philip Pape: 20:08

Honestly, people would love to be able to lose fat and get to some level where they're just, you know, cool, they're cool with it, they're happy and you can still get a lot of progress.

Philip Pape: 20:17

The fact that you built muscle while losing means you have some early, like novice type response still in you to be able to keep gaining muscle at definitely a maintenance and there's always like different trade-offs, like you could always go to a very lean gain. If you're not the type that's like I, have to put on all this muscle and then cut it off. You know cause a lot of us are and a lot of my clients get into the habit of cycling every year more aggressively. But if you're like not comfortable adding 10 more pounds of scale weight because of that's a whole mental thing there's nothing wrong with being at like a little above maintenance and just drifting kind of up, since your body is very responsive, until you hit a wall. Then, when you hit the wall, then you say, okay, now maybe I have to ascertain like one more cut and then a really aggressive bulk for a while and then back to a cut. You know those kinds of long term strategies.

Melanie: 21:06

So do you take clients immediately from a deficit to a build, or do you prefer to have them stay in maintenance for a bit?

Philip Pape: 21:14

It depends on their goals. You know what I mean. Like it depends on their goals, I give gentle nudge to go into a bulk, because if you're working with me and paying for me, I'm not going to say it's easy to be at maintenance, but like we've done that, now I want to show you the whole different side of it, all these new challenges that people just don't know, like people watching this and listening. I know you want to lose weight. I know you want to lose fat, but there's something magical about building as well. That's its own thing, but that's in the future. It's all part of your plan, melanie, of like this never ends, the process never ends. You can do it however you want. You know, yeah, it's life.

Melanie: 21:47

Well, yeah, and it really shouldn't, right? I mean, because your body is constantly changing, so what works for me, or what I think works for me this year, may not work for me next year. You know, and so you do. You can't just you can't always stick with the same plan because it worked for you in the past, because your body has now changed. You've gotten, you know for me. I've gotten older, older, my hormones have changed. My body now might be sensitive to something that I used to eat or whatever, and so I can't, you know things like that.

Philip Pape: 22:17

A hundred percent. That's a really important point, especially we're both in our forties and I will say even in a two-year period. Because of how your body changes, deliberately and unintentionally, as well as life situation changes, you'll find that the system and the process of experimenting on yourself and getting data you want to keep doing that because, again, the next phase isn't going to operate like the last. So you need to early on understand what's happening so that you could interject and it might be better, it might be worse, it's just different. You know it doesn't matter. Like I wonder about the mindset stuff too, because again, I know you worked with Paul. Paul is a huge, like behavioral change guy. He's very much in a mindset motion. Is there any anything different now than when we started that you found about this process from a mental perspective, like as you were checking in, as you were thinking about that new year's party and whether or not your physique was changing and so on.

Melanie: 23:09

It's one of those things. Just because I had worked with someone for so long, my mind was in the right place. That doesn't mean it wasn't hard at times, and you are well aware of that. When we had our check-ins right, like you mentioned, I would always write I'm frustrated that either the scale weight's not moving or I'm frustrated that I'm not losing as inches as fast as I would like. But I am trusting the process because, at the end of the day, every single time that I was in a deficit in the past, as long as I trusted the process, I would get there.

Melanie: 23:45

It just doesn't happen as fast as anybody likes. Right, you wanna like immediately. It's kind of like you see those memes online, right? Somebody just I worked out today and then they're looking at their abs in the mirror and it's what they look like. You don't get the results you want immediately, so it's just staying the course, and I think maybe part of what happens for people is you get frustrated and you just kind of give up, not saying that that hasn't happened to me before, and then you just kind of either, you know, not work out for a week or just go overboard on the eating for a week, and that's also fine, as long as you kind of come back to the process.

Melanie: 24:23

Ideally, you know it's just the sooner you come back to the process, the less of that little blip occurs. Because as long as you trust the process and you stick with it, you're going to get the results. It's just inevitable. It's how well you adhere to the process. But you can have F-ups along the way, right? I mean, we're all human, nobody's a robot. So it's just as long as you're consistently coming back to where you need to be or where you want to be, that's the key.

Philip Pape: 24:55

It's a great way to put it. I mean, I think of like a rubber band getting stretched where it always comes back to where it needs to be. Or I think Gary V posted an image on Instagram the other day that had five glasses of water and it said this is what people think consistency is, and it's like every glass is full. And then here's what it really is. It's like full, almost empty, halfway almost empty, and it's like but there's always a little water in there and like that's the thing is. Like you've always got a little water in your glass and you kind of you come back to that and some days are full and some days are not. And yeah, your check-in comments were along those lines, which I think is healthy. I think people need to understand that. Like you said, I'm following the process, but, man, I do not like feeling this flubby right now. Like that's one of your I hope you don't mind me sharing this but like I think they're good because I would see those and as a coach at initially, I'm like, oh, I, you know, I take it personally when a client feels discouraged in any sense, but also, at the same time, it's human. So when you say these things. It's just an acknowledgement of reality.

Philip Pape: 25:51

You had another one about a New Year's party. You said I intentionally ate what was there. I also knew I wasn't really going overboard and my body would adjust back in a few days, as it did shrug emoji. So again you were like confident, the process would work. Now, not everyone's that confident and I suspect newer folks and this is where I'm going to ask for your advice for somebody listening, somebody who is like a month into the process or two months in. They don't have the long history you do. I've seen this as well where a small fraction of clients I lose them because they're impatient and they're like I'm just frustrated, nothing's happening, I'm going to quit, and it's like I tried to reel them back. Not everybody can be saved in that sense, let's just put it that way. What would you say to somebody in advance so that when they have those doubts, what can they do?

Melanie: 26:37

I mean it's normal, right. It's very frustrating. It's hard to just keep on saying trust the process when you can't give them a definite date, slash time as to when the process for them is going to be achieved. It's just, hey, I mean it's scientifically, it's just going to happen. There's just no way that it's not. The only variable right now is the amount of time it's going to take you to get there.

Melanie: 27:03

And then also, alluding to that, is the very beginning of this whole journey for me, the nutrition aspect of it, when I would kind of fall off of my prescribed plan, if you will, it was. I read this once. It's like, you know, you get a hole in one tire, I would puncture all four tires. I'd be like, well, I went off plan, so I'm just going to go balls to the wall and I'm just going to eat everything in sight. And that took me a couple of years to go.

Melanie: 27:30

Hey, we don't need to do that, right? Okay, you ate a cookie, you ate two, three cookies. Who cares? That was one meal. Every meal is your starting point and every meal can be a starting point, not to say that you can't also go balls to the wall for one day, two days, three days, like I said, as long as you get back to it and you're consistent, like you said, some days you're going to be 100%, some days you're going to be 50%, 40%, the average, it's law of averages, it's all going to work out eventually. The only delta is going to be the time taken to get there.

Philip Pape: 28:01

Yeah, very well said. I'm not going to add to that because that was good. Yeah, no, people listen. Listen to that. That is exactly what it is what did come to mind there, though there's something else, a side tangent that I was thinking of having to do with. Oh, I guess you know, when you mentioned being in a deficit and stuff like that, I'm such a rational, logical person often, and you know so I will use logical, I will use logic to try to convince people sometimes. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't, but the logical side of that is, if you over consume by you know, a thousand calories one day, but you're under by a thousand the rest of the week, you're at maintenance, right?

Melanie: 28:39

Exactly, but that's. I think that that can be hard for some people who are already in a deficit, because they're already like just going to keep at those calories and now it's that mental game of, well, you're going to take away more even though I may have gone over, but it's that like, well, that was the baseline for me, and now it's less, even if it's for four days, so I can see where that would be a struggle for people. I think that would be a struggle for me. You literally I mean you mentioned just very briefly, but one of the things that I held steadfast my entire deficit journey with you was my one for error share, and you even suggested at the very end, when we were kind of tapering off, you suggested, hey, let's see what would happen if we got rid of that for share and maybe had another carb alternative that didn't have as many fat grams in it, because we were really playing around with numbers for me and I was just like, no, I don't want to, that's all good, that's right.

Philip Pape: 29:39

I like to give options, right, like sometimes you want your coach to just tell you what to do. But seriously, sometimes you need options. And I'm not going to say it's like a child, but that did come to mind right, because when you have a kid like I remember when our kids are little, it'd be like give them two options, exactly, and it's cool, because we are humans and we do get paralyzed by indecision sometimes. But also, if you are too restrictive and say like this is the only way, then people can push back if they really want to have their chocolate, that's cool. You're an adult, you know.

Melanie: 30:04

Well, I think, logically for me, I knew that that was going to do, that was going to do, that was going to shift stuff. I knew it. Like it makes sense Logically, you're consuming less fat grams. Obviously it's going to make a shift, but for me it was also at that time. Hey, I feel like this is a way for me to kind of be more consistent with the plan, because I'm getting my treat, and so my concern was well, if I drop it, am I going to feel like I'm being restricted?

Melanie: 30:30

Because throughout my, our entire deficit journey I didn't feel restricted, and that generally is the case with me. I don't feel restricted. But if I felt at that time, if we had just taken away that chocolate, I would have felt like, oh, this is no fun.

Philip Pape: 30:44

It was the one thing. Yeah, it was like a symbol of freedom.

Melanie: 30:47

Of normalcy. Yes, Like this is normal. I'm still eating a chocolate. This is not a deficit.

Philip Pape: 30:51

Yeah, no for sure. And people listening, you guys all know what your we call them non-negotiables are. Now, not everything can be a non-negotiable. If your non-negotiable is three glasses of wine every night, we're going to have a discussion about that non-negotiable. But yeah, perfectly wrong.

Philip Pape: 31:06

It's funny because I'm thinking about how I'm going to go into fat loss phase in like two weeks myself and all the things I'm going to cut out and that's where your brain goes. But really the brain has to go to like you know, what am I keeping in that I enjoy, and then I'm going to make everything else kind of scale around it to still be successful with fat loss. And for me that's probably ice cream or something. But you don't have options today. With technology, with food science, with ninja creamies, you know there's all sorts of ways to get creative about this. All right, so what a classic table topic style question, like if you can go back and tell yourself something that you didn't know back then and by back then I mean either when we started or it could even be way back when. Uh, what would you tell your younger self?

Melanie: 31:47

I mean what I? It's basically just trust the process and be consistent, like those are the two things that I think will really factor into somebody having success with achieving their goals. And it's really hard to trust the process and I get that because for some people that the visual differences, or even the quantifiable differences, aren't immediate and it may take a month or two or three, like it, especially if you don't have a, you're not working with large numbers, right? It's not like you want to drop 40 pounds, you may want to drop five pounds, and sometimes that smaller number is the harder number, right, because it just is. And so trust the process that was something that I had struggles with when I first started. And then just be consistent, right, because science is not doesn't lie Like, the more consistent you are, just the faster you'll see your results. So, truly, you hold, you hold how fast you're going to achieve your goals.

Melanie: 32:53

But, that being said, also, you might discover things with your body that you weren't expecting, right. Maybe your body isn't responding to something that you planned out for, and then you're just going to have to adapt and tweak. And that's where working with somebody like you comes into play, because something that works for me that you've prescribed may not work for somebody else that you've prescribed may not work for somebody else that you've prescribed, but because you've worked with so many people, you kind of know all these little tricks to throw out there for people to try, and that's the value that comes from hiring someone to work with you, and they're working with you. You're not working for them, they're not working for you. Y'all are on this journey together, and I think that's one of the things that people also don't necessarily understand. Like you're in it as much as I'm in it on my journey right, because it's you're making the plan and I'm following it, but we both have input in what's happening too.

Philip Pape: 33:49

Oh yeah, and I want to make sure that plan adapts with you in real time. And it's funny you mentioned you talked about experimentation and learning about your body and all that. I will have clients that early on will say, hey, this thing kind of is not working, so I tested by doing this and I'm all for testing, trust me, I am. The accelerator you get, I think, with a coach is they can say don't do that again, like that test you just did. It's not going to work, but it's cool that you tried it.

Philip Pape: 34:15

I'm all for that, but like if you were on your own, you would try it and maybe go a long time not understanding why it did or didn't work. You know that that's what comes to mind. For me is like no, no, no, no want to experiment.

Melanie: 34:28

I mean, there's so much more wealth of knowledge that you have with working with so many people, and that's something that you know me I'm not going to have, even though, like you've mentioned, I've done this for so long, but I've only done this for so long, with me and my body's changing every year, so it's almost like I'm a different person every year. So, like we mentioned, what worked last year may not work for me, may not work as well for me this year.

Philip Pape: 34:50

For sure, and every person at every time is a unique starting point, so you've got to be willing to like, open your eyes to what the data is telling you.

Speaker 3: 35:01

Before I started working with Philip, I had been trying to lose weight and was really struggling with consistency, but from the very beginning, philip took the time to listen to me and understand my goals. He taught me the importance of fueling my body with the right foods to optimize my training in the gym, and I lost 20 pounds. More importantly, I gained self-confidence. What sets Philip apart is the personal connection. He supported and encouraged me every step of the way. So if you're looking for a coach who cares about your journey as much as you do, I highly recommend Philip Pape.

Philip Pape: 35:41

When you mentioned trust the process. I guess one obvious question then would be or philosophical question almost is when someone said well, what is the process? What do you mean by that? Like is it? You know what I mean, and I know that's kind of a loaded question, but if somebody has that confusion, what would you say?

Melanie: 35:56

I mean, ultimately it just boils down to if you eat less than your expenditure, you are just going to lose weight. But that's frustrating sometimes because you feel like you're eating so much less than you're putting out. So why isn't the fat loss happening faster? And it just won't? Because your body is going to be like hey, I'm not going to let go of this so quickly because I don't know when we're going to get food again. I mean, it's one of those things, right? Uh? But back when in my twenties, I was like well, as long as I don't eat, I'm going to. I'm not, I'm going to lose weight, and you, that's just.

Melanie: 36:25

Life's too short to not enjoy eating. There is so much good food out there, man. So as long as you are just level-headed and approach everything in moderation and just trust, trust the process, right, it's hey, I'm, I'm getting all the nutrients in, I'm getting my fiber in, I'm getting my carbs, my fat, my protein in and everything. And you have the luxury of playing around with what you want to eat, right, like, if you want to have a big juicy steak one day, go for it. Once again, it's a one day thing, right. The next day you can go back to your thing. Your body adapts so well at any age. Like it's not like it adapts so well at any age. It just may take a little bit longer as you get older, and that's normal, but it will adapt.

Philip Pape: 37:21

Yeah, no, I love it. You talked about energy balance. It's a fact, no-transcript, at least have like grasped that concept. And then it's like well, what is that for you? Because it's probably not your hormones, it's probably not menopause, it's probably not any of those things, even though they have an impact. It's the fundamentals. So you mentioned moderation, nutrients, balance, flexibility. That sounds like a great diet, as opposed to cut out all carbs or cut out all plants.

Melanie: 38:10

Well, what I want to highlight again, because we probably just glossed over it in the beginning, I came to you off that issue where I wasn't eating and I was definitely not lean. So that does I mean I would just, I would just survive, basically, basically. But my body did not like that, obviously. And now I'm eating. I'm eating what I should be eating for my you know body type or whatever, and I'm still leaning out because now my body is used to this. So don't think that you just have to stop eating. Your body will get used to you introducing food back.

Melanie: 38:46

Remember that when you go on a deficit, you may be limiting the amount of food that you're eating, but that's not going to be forever. You can still maintain that aesthetic goal or whatever into your maintenance and increase more calories because there's a scientific approach to it and you do that so well. You know that your deficit journey is just such a short period of time of what your whole journey is going to be, so you just have to make that quote, unquote sacrifice for just a short period of time.

Philip Pape: 39:16

Yeah, it's like a competition almost with yourself. For a short period of time You're going out, you're competing, you're, you're pushing yourself, your discomfort, your, you know it's a change and then you're done and, like you said, sustaining it is important because 95% of people and I know Paul Salter, his company used to be called the 5% solution because it referred to those 5% who successfully maintain the results, versus the 95% who don't so.

Melanie: 39:40

but people are afraid, like when I stop my diet I'm just going to gain it all back, Right, Not if you do it Right, I mean, and, like I said, you can still have days where you, you know, go out and you're eating a nice dinner at a restaurant, you have that slice of cake for dessert or whatever, and then the next day, the next meal is a new meal, a new day, a new start. Just be consistent. It really sounds so repetitive, but it really is. On the days that you don't want to go to the gym, just go to the gym, start walking on the treadmill if you don't feel like lifting, because it then just starts to click. You're like well, I'm here already, might as well, just go, let's just do some free weights. Oh well, okay, well, the squat rack's empty. Well, let's.

Melanie: 40:19

The other thing to mention I was pretty, pretty repetitive. I think at one point you were like are you just copying and pasting your food choices? Because I literally eat the same thing every day for the most part. And I do that because, once again, I don't want to have to think I've got what fits my prescribed plan and I don't want to have to think I've got what fits my prescribed plan and I don't want to have to think about it changing every day, and that works for somebody like me and may not work for somebody like, say, my husband. If he were to do it, he can't do that repetitiveness, and so you, if that is something that works for you.

Melanie: 40:59

It's such an easy thing because I would have my meals prepped in the fridge ready to go. You know, I'd buy rotisserie chickens from the grocery store, just shred it, it's ready to go. I always have protein on hand and I was fine eating chicken for every meal. It didn't phase me at all. That, I think, also really helps the planning having something ready to go, Because you don't want to be, well, I'm really really hungry and I don't have anything to eat except this package of Oreos, if you will Right, and it doesn't have any protein in it or the protein that you should be having or whatever or plan to have. So as long as you're kind of have stuff ready to go, that also comes in really handy, because then it's that little click of well, I don't have it, I'm just going to eat whatever.

Philip Pape: 41:50

Now that doesn't necessarily happen. Yeah, yeah, that's. I mean meal planning, meal prepping is. It's a spectrum Like you alluded to. Like you like to eat the same thing every day, that's great. That'll serve you really well If you like it.

Philip Pape: 41:59

If you don't, you can at least have a few options prepared ahead of time for the week. Mix and match them. The point is to get rid of the decision fatigue. I like to call meal prep an act of self-care for your future self right. It's like the stressed out person who may not have food, who's going to eat the Oreos now, has the option Whether it's a snack. I mean, again, it's a spectrum.

Philip Pape: 42:19

You could have a whole pantry full of great snacks that you would go to instead of the Oreos or fruit, or you can literally have every meal prepped in Tupperware. You know whatever, whatever way you want to go with that. So it's funny because every new client who isn't educated on that coming in, I'm like, okay, here we go again, like this is. I know this is going to be a game changer for them and a lot of people see it as meal planning, meal prep, like it sounds like this chore, you know, it sounds like budgeting or whatever, and really it ends up being a lot easier, because then the whole week gets freed up from all this meal prep during the week and you're like, oh, now I see.

Melanie: 42:51

Yeah, that phrase decision fatigue is I've never. I mean, I may have heard it before, but it hasn't clicked with me. But that is exactly why I like being in a deficit, that's exactly why I like not having to think about something. After I've thought about it one time, it's like, okay, the decision has been made and I'm just going to repeat what we decided again and again, and again.

Philip Pape: 43:13

Exactly so. You've got all these great tools. I'm sure we can go on and on about all the things, but it's going to be different for everyone. You've got these results. You're still leaning out a bit. We've got the sprinting added in, which is cool, and still leaning out a bit. We've got the sprinting added in, which is cool. And I you know you're getting stronger, you're getting faster. All these, what's next Are you? You mentioned sustaining it, but I know you always have some goal.

Melanie: 43:33

I do. So, you know, I we've stepped away from working together for right now and I said I'm probably going to reach out again when I want to be in a deficit again, because it's one of those things like I said, I enjoy doing it and I especially enjoy doing it during the holiday season. It's just an incentive for me to just not go off track Once again. For me, I would say you know a lot of it is the accountability hey, I have. I'm working with someone. I'm letting my team member down if I just do whatever I want to do. And so one way for me to just know for sure that I am not going to gain the holiday 15 or holiday five or whatever it is, is like, hey, we're working together, we have a goal I'm going to do.

Melanie: 44:19

It Doesn't mean that I can't enjoy that one New Year's meal or the one Christmas meal or whatever, but it just means that every time my neighbor brings over a cookie or something, I don't always have to eat it because I'm trying to achieve something for myself. So right now, while I'm in maintenance, my goal is just to get stronger and stronger and stronger, more so than anything because I am at my aesthetic goal. My clothes are fitting the way I like them to. I like the way I look personally, so that's all good. And then when I want to go into a deficit again, I just like having somebody that's an expert, that will just do all the decision making for me, like you just said, and I just have to follow along and do that. So that's kind of my plan right now. Cool yeah, getting stronger is one of my plan right now.

Philip Pape: 45:05

Cool, yeah, getting stronger is one of my favorite goals, so you can't go wrong there and honestly, you could do some form of that forever. And uh, again, I mentioned Nikki Sims earlier but she said it's like going from skinny to strong, uh kind of deal. So you know if and when you're ready to build, definitely reach out. But again, you mentioned about losing. You know I've got plenty of clients who do it seasonally. They're like all right, it's fat loss time. Let me go talk to Phillip. You know it's just one of those and I don't take it personally because you know, whatever you need help with, I'm here to help. So let me ask you this as we wrap up is there anything you would say to somebody who's on the fence about coaching and either may not be the right fit for coaching, versus they are Like I'm really curious. I'm always curious about that. Like, is there somebody who shouldn't, other than maybe they can't afford it, or and and you know we all have different price levels, that's different. What do you think?

Melanie: 45:54

There's so much value to having a coach because there is so much information out there, it takes so long to kind of comb through the weeds. It's hard to know what's necessarily accurate. You could follow three people whom you really admire and trust and they could have three completely different opinions, and then you're just like well, I don't know what I should do for my body. Am I going to really experiment with all of these things? Having you in my back pocket, if you will, was just. It just took all the stress out of it Because, like we mentioned, you've worked with so many people, so you've kind of had the experience of knowing what works or what you can already see is not going to work for somebody.

Melanie: 46:34

You know if you're trying something, and so it's just the experience, the ability to kind of cut out all the noise, all that extra noise, and say, hey, let's try this, let's try this Somebody. If you want that person to make all the decisions for you, great. If you want it to be more collaborative, great. Like a coach is supposed to and this is what you do also kind of be a therapist to kind of figure out what that person's uh receptiveness to which coaching style like as somebody. Does somebody like being told what to do like me, and does it. Or does somebody like being more collaborative and doing it that way? So I can't stress enough just how much easier it is to achieve your goals if you work with a coach. I'm not saying you can't, it's just there's a lot of noise that gets cut out when you work with a coach.

Philip Pape: 47:23

Yeah, I like the way you put that, because if you're ever hitting your head against the wall about anything and you've already listened to all the podcasts and read all the books because I've been there where I'm like I could do this it's like, ah, something's not quite cutting it. I mean, just find that person, that expert, get a referral, talk to Melanie, talk to anybody and go for it. So, yeah, I mean thanks for sharing your story today. I know there's probably a lot more we could have gotten into. I guess I'll ask you is there anything we didn't cover? You're like, oh, I gotta, I gotta tell people about this.

Melanie: 47:51

No, I think when I remember just meal prepping, like that was such a big thing, I can't believe I almost forgot that one. But that one does really help you kind of stick with your goals and then just be patient. It's okay to be frustrated, Just know that it will happen. The delta is the time.

Philip Pape: 48:10

It will happen, absolutely it will happen. It's just a matter of time. Thank you so much, melanie, for coming on, and I'm excited to see what happens next. I am hoping we can stay in touch and maybe get you building some muscle here in the near term.

Melanie: 48:23

I'm going to keep saying it, I'm going to keep saying it, I'm going to keep saying it, I'll keep on getting stronger. So we might, we might, be there.

Philip Pape: 48:29

Exactly, exactly Once. Yeah, um yeah. If you hit that wall during maintenance, you're like, why isn't it happening?

Melanie: 48:46

It's because of the food You're going to need more food. Yeah, all right. Well, thank you so much for coming. Feel free, what's the best way to do that Email, if you want to drop it somewhere, or do you just want me to say it?

Philip Pape: 48:52

Yeah, I'll drop it in there. I'll drop it in the show notes so people can look at that.

Melanie: 48:55

Okay, all right, yeah, that's the best way.

Philip Pape: 48:57

Awesome. Thanks so much for coming on.

Melanie: 48:59

Thank you.

When You CAN "Eat More to Lose Weight" (for Fat Loss) | Ep 294

Join Wits & Weights Physique University for a custom nutrition plan incorporating these volume-maximizing strategies. Get 2 weeks free to try it out. If you're not sure it's for you, email me at philip@witsandweights.com for a personal demo!

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Can you actually "eat more to lose weight" (as the fitness influencers claim)?

Well...yes! But it has nothing to do with reverse dieting, ending "starvation mode," or fixing your metabolism.

The fundamental truth remains: you need a calorie deficit to lose weight (and thus fat). But there's a legitimate way to increase your food volume while maintaining that deficit.

Discover 5 science-based strategies to fill your plate and feel satisfied without sabotaging fat loss...because the best diet is the one that you can stick to!

Main Takeaways:

• We still live in our universe: a calorie deficit is required for fat loss

• There are legitimate, science-based strategies to eat more food volume while maintaining that deficit

• There are many ways to increase food volume, and some have bonus effects (like triggering your fullness signals)

• The most powerful results come from combining multiple volume-maximizing techniques

• Optimizing food choices is key to sustainability during a fat loss phase

Episode Resources:

• Try MacroFactor free with code WITSANDWEIGHTS

Timestamps:

0:01 - Misleading fitness influencer claims and why people might lose weight on some programs
2:57 - What "eating more" actually means for effective fat loss
4:17 - Approach #1: The macro that burns more calories
7:33 - Approach #2: A special (almost magical) type of carb
10:41 - Approach #3: Using food physics to your advantage
13:42 - Approach #4: Why physical structure matters for satiety
16:48 - Approach #5: Timing and frequency also matter
19:43 - How to create a system to "eat more" and lose fat more effortlessly

When You CAN "Eat More to Lose Weight" (For Fat Loss)

"Eat more to lose weight!" It's a catchy phrase used by fitness influencers, often tied to myths about "damaged metabolism" or "starvation mode." While some people do lose weight after increasing food intake, it’s usually not for the reasons they think.

There is a legitimate way to eat more while still losing fat—but it’s not magic. It’s science. If you’ve ever struggled with hunger or felt like you had to suffer through dieting, the key isn’t eating more calories but eating smarter within your calorie target.

Let’s break down five evidence-based ways you can increase food volume, stay satisfied, and lose fat effectively.

The Truth About Eating More and Losing Fat

Before we dive in, let’s set the record straight:

• You still need a calorie deficit to lose fat. No amount of metabolic hacks will override the laws of energy balance.

• “Eating more” refers to food volume, not calorie intake. The goal is to feel fuller on the same or fewer calories.

• Strategic food choices can make fat loss easier and more sustainable.

With that in mind, here’s how to optimize your fat loss diet so you can eat more food without eating more calories.

#1 - Increase the Thermic Effect of Food (TEF)

TEF refers to the energy your body burns digesting food. Different macronutrients require different amounts of energy to process:

• Protein: 20–30% of its calories are burned during digestion.

• Carbs: 5–10% are burned.

• Fats: Only 0–3% are burned.

This means that eating more protein naturally increases calorie expenditure, effectively creating a larger deficit while keeping food volume high.

For example, if you eat 500 calories:

• A high-protein meal (60g protein, 15g fat, 30g carbs) might leave only 415 calories available after digestion.

• A higher-fat meal (30g protein, 30g fat, 30g carbs) might leave 445 calories available.

Over time, this difference adds up, making protein an easy way to eat more while still losing fat.

#2 - Optimize Fiber Intake for More Volume

Fiber is a volume optimizer because it adds bulk to food without adding as many calories as other carbohydrates.

Most carbs provide 4 calories per gram, while fiber provides 0–2 calories per gram, depending on the type. This means that high-fiber foods fill you up more for fewer calories.

For example:

• 100 grams of white rice: ~350 calories, ~0.5g fiber

• 100 grams of brown rice: ~340 calories, ~2g fiber

The small fiber difference means brown rice is slightly more filling for the same calorie count. But scale this up across all your food choices, and you’ll see a significant impact on satiety and calorie intake.

Pro tip: If you're tracking macros in an app like MacroFactor, you might notice that fiber grams are included in your carb count, but the total calorie estimate is lower than expected. This is because fiber doesn't contribute as many digestible calories as other carbs—a fact you can use to your advantage.

#3 - Choose Foods with High Water Content

Foods high in water naturally have low calorie density, meaning you can eat more of them for fewer calories.

Consider this comparison:

• A pound of spinach has ~100 calories.

• A pound of oil has ~4,000 calories.

Clearly, weight and volume don’t always correlate with calories. By filling your plate with water-rich foods, you increase stomach fullness without excess calories.

Examples:

• Swap half your pasta for zucchini noodles – You'll double your portion size while reducing calories by 40%.

• Start meals with a vegetable soup – Studies show this can reduce overall calorie intake by 20%.

#4 - Leverage Food Structure and Texture

How food is structured affects how full you feel. Foods that require more chewing and take longer to eat increase satiety.

• Whole fruit vs. juice: A whole apple (~95 calories) takes longer to eat and digests slower than apple juice (which contains 2–3 apples’ worth of sugar).

• Air-popped popcorn vs. chips: A cup of popcorn (~30 calories) is much more voluminous than a handful of chips (~150 calories).

• Lean meats vs. processed meats: Chicken breast takes more effort to chew than ground chicken, increasing satiety.

This is why choosing whole, unprocessed foods can help you eat more without actually consuming more calories.

#5 - Optimize Meal Timing and Frequency

Meal timing can impact hunger and energy regulation during fat loss.

• Frequent, smaller meals can help regulate blood sugar and reduce cravings.

• Eating more earlier in the day aligns with your circadian rhythm, leading to better energy and appetite control.

• Spacing protein evenly throughout the day maximizes muscle retention and satiety.

If you typically eat 2 large meals and struggle with hunger, try switching to 3–4 meals with a protein focus.

The Smarter Way to Lose Fat

When you combine higher protein, fiber, water-dense foods, structured meals, and strategic timing, fat loss becomes way easier.

This isn’t about “eating more calories to lose weight.” It’s about maximizing volume, satiety, and adherence while staying in a deficit.

The best part? You don’t have to starve yourself or feel miserable. You just have to eat smarter.

👩‍💻 Book a FREE 15-Minute Rapid Nutrition Assessment:
https://witsandweights.com/free-call

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Transcript

Philip Pape: 0:01

Eat more to lose weight a common refrain by fitness influencers who claim your metabolism is damaged and you're in starvation mode. Sometimes people do lose weight with this advice, but not for the reasons claimed. Today, I'm revealing what science actually says about increasing your food intake during fat loss. There's a legitimate way to eat more while losing fat, but it's not what you've been told. This approach has helped my clients overcome plateaus and actually enjoy their fat loss journey instead of constantly battling hunger. If you're tired of all the confusing advice, this episode will give you the clarity you've been looking for.

Philip Pape: 0:52

Welcome to Wits and Weights, the show that helps you build a strong, healthy physique using evidence, engineering and efficiency. I'm your host, philip Pape, and today we're addressing one of the most persistent myths in the fitness industry this idea that you need to eat more to lose weight. You've probably heard fitness influencers claim that your metabolism is damaged, you're in starvation mode or you need to eat more to rev up your metabolic rate. When people do lose weight following this advice, it's usually because they've improved their food quality. They've started tracking more accurately. They've gotten rid of those oops weekends. They've improved their food quality, they've started tracking more accurately. They've gotten rid of those oops weekends They've added in training, not because they've fixed their metabolism or reverse dieted by increasing calories. The fundamental truth still remains that you need a calorie deficit to lose fat. However, there is a legitimate way to increase your food volume while maintaining that deficit. It is not about magically increasing calories, but it's about strategically selecting and structuring your food choices. Those choices will help you maximize volume and satiety while supporting fat loss. So today I want to share five evidence-based approaches that I use with clients that will allow you to fill your plate and to feel satisfied while continuing to lose fat effectively. And still get allique University, where we provide you with lots of things, but basically we give you a system and support to reach whatever your goal is for your body composition, and that includes a custom nutrition plan tailored by me to your unique needs and preferences. Targeted workout programs every month, monthly challenges, a supportive community, lots of courses, trainings, workshops you name it all to keep you accountable and engaged. Just go to witsandweightscom, slash physique, or click the link in the show notes to learn more. You can have a two-week free trial, so there's absolutely no risk. Go check it out.

Philip Pape: 2:57

All right, let's get into today's topic and I want to clarify what I mean when I say that you can eat more and lose weight. I am not suggesting that you can magically consume more calories and still lose fat. That is where I think the influencers mislead people with the marketing right Like you could just eat more calories, eat more food in general and you're going to lose weight somehow. What I'm talking about is increasing the physical volume of food on your plate while still maintaining the calorie deficit, the physical volume of food on your plate while still maintaining the calorie deficit. And this is an approach where you need some data-driven information, nutrition science, a systems thinking mindset to optimize your fat loss journey. It's a very creative, almost engineering type approach to structuring your meals and choosing what foods to eat. You don't just do it willy nilly. You don't just choose foods based on macros. This is not if it fits your macros. There is a little more nuance and there are a few more variables involved. So when we apply this thinking to nutrition, we are trying to do what we're trying to maximize satiety and satisfaction while keeping calories in check. So our constraint is the calories, but then this other lever is how full we feel. So I've got five approaches that I came up with for today's episode to increase your food volume but still maintain the calorie level that you need to support fat loss.

Philip Pape: 4:17

All right, so approach number one is understanding the thermic effect of food. T-e-f. This is the slice of your metabolism Like, if you ever look at it on a pie chart, and I show you the four components of metabolism. This is the one that takes about say, 10, 15% of calories a day to burn, and what I mean by burn is this is the energy your body uses to digest, absorb and process what you eat. Different macronutrients actually require different amounts of energy to process, and protein has the highest TEF or thermic effect of food, at approximately 20 to 30% of its calories being burned while you digest it. So you're really only quote unquote absorbing 70 to 80% of what's going in. Carbs burn about 5 to 10% and fats burn only about 0 to 3%. So what this means practically it's pretty cool.

Philip Pape: 5:13

If you throw this in a spreadsheet and you play around with different compositions of macros, you'll see that the more protein you consume, the fewer calories you're probably going to actually take into your body, which will look like a higher energy expenditure, if that makes sense. So, because technically it is a higher energy expenditure. But what matters is that you could either eat more and not gain as much weight, or you can eat less and lose more weight. That makes sense. So if you consume 100 calories of protein, your body's going to use 20 to 30 of those just in the digestion process, leaving 70 to 80 net calories for your body to actually use. Compare that to fat, where the same 100 calories still means almost 100 net calories. So by increasing protein intake, by slightly reducing fat or carb intake, while keeping total calories the same, you effectively create a larger calorie deficit without changing your food quantity because you're bumping up your expenditure just a bit.

Philip Pape: 6:12

So again, if I want to give you two examples so you can visualize this as you're listening, let's say we have two meals that are 500 calories. Meal one has 30 grams of protein, 30 fat and almost 30 grams of carbs. Meal two has 60 grams of protein, 15 grams of fat, so that's double the protein, half the fat and about the same amount of carbs. With meal one, after you account for this TEF, your body will net about 445 calories out of the 500. With meal two, you might net only 415 calories out of the 500, and that's a 30 calorie difference. And that's just from one meal. It's just a 30 gram difference in protein.

Philip Pape: 6:56

Imagine if you go from a fairly low amount of daily protein to a much higher amount. Many of you listening the first time you've done this, or if you haven't done it yet, chances are you're gonna double, possibly triple, the amount of protein. So it starts to add up. This is also why sometimes I suggest, during fat loss, to jack the protein up even higher and take it predominantly from fats and not as much from carbs. Of course there's more to it than calories, right? Protein is also more satiating, above and beyond this effect, and so it helps you feel full longer. So by strategically increasing protein intake, you're not just reducing the effect of calories, you're also reducing hunger.

Philip Pape: 7:33

Two for one, one of my favorites, all right approach. Number two fiber. So fiber is the volume optimizer I'm gonna call it Okay and it is unique among the carbs, among the carbohydrates, because, unlike other carbs which provide four calories per gram, fiber provides fewer usable calories, between usually zero and two, maybe up to two and a half calories per gram, depending on the type of fiber. And what makes this interesting is that most food tracking apps, like if you're using macro factor, like I recommend link in the show notes try it for free with my code Wits and Weights you will and also nutrition labels as well. They actually count the fiber as grams of carbs, but then the calories will usually be altered to match the proper amount of calories, and that is why when you try to add it all up, sometimes it doesn't match. Like if you just take your carbs carb grams times four, it may be higher calories than what is actually shown on the nutrition label, because the nutrition label is based on the true calories that are in there. Same thing when you log the food, and so this creates an opportunity when you're tracking via macros, in that when you increase your fiber intake, you increase your food volume and you quote, unquote hit your carbs before you get to the same calorie level than if you had a lower amount of fiber. Does that make sense? So even if you have the same, like, let's say, 100 grams of carbs a day, if more of those grams are fiber, you're actually gonna consume fewer calories and so that gap between the gram math and the calories will widen and you can take advantage of that. Now the even bigger benefit is that fiber adds bulk to food without adding the proportional calories. It absorbs water, it expands in your stomach, it slows digestion and all of those increase satiety. And so, again, I can give you a concrete example here.

Philip Pape: 9:26

If we talk about white rice versus brown rice, right and nothing's good or bad. This is just a difference in choices for what you're going for here. We take 100 calories of white rice compared to 100 calories of brown rice. The brown rice contains more fiber, not a huge amount more, but it contains a little bit more, and that means it will physically take up more space in your stomach and digest more slowly. Then you'll likely feel fuller from the brown rice, even though the calorie count is identical, which means you might actually choose to eat less brown rice and have fewer calories and be just as full, or eat the same amount and be even fuller. You get what I'm saying. You have a lot of levers to play with. Now imagine applying this to your entire diet. If you're always selecting higher fiber alternatives for carb sources, you will dramatically increase the volume of food while maintaining the same calorie intake. That is amazing. And, by the way, the other, the other way to think about this is even once you've hit your carbs and your protein in your food logging app and you notice the calories are short because you eat a lot of fiber. You now you have a choice. Maybe you're getting full enough where you don't need those extra calories and you'll be in an even bigger deficit, as long as it's not too big, right. Or you can now eat a little bit more food in case you're having a little bit of hunger, and this can actually offset it where you have less hunger. You see how this all makes sense, all right.

Philip Pape: 10:41

The third approach out of the five I wanted to talk about today of how to eat more and still lose fat is related to water content and food density. And if you think about, say, spinach a pound of spinach versus a pound of oil Just imagine a pound of spinach in a giant bowl versus a pound of oil in a little tiny bowl they're going to contain vastly different amounts of calories. Now, this is an extreme, I get it. You might substitute the oil for peanut butter. Same concept the spinach has like 100 calories in a pound. The oil has about 4,000 calories in a pound. So that is a 40 fold difference in nutrient density or calorie density. Right, because foods with higher water content will have lower calorie density, because the water adds weight and volume without adding calories. Take an apple, go, put an apple in macro factor or whatever your food logging app is, and see how many grams of that apple is water. It's a huge percent. It's like 80 or 90% of it is water. It's surprising. Almost You're like wow, that's actually mostly water.

Philip Pape: 11:45

And we can use this principle to again increase the volume of food on our plate. For example, adding vegetables to a pasta dish might double the volume, but only add calories by increased by like 10 to 15%. And so I'm going to give you another specific example. You take a cup of cooked pasta with 200 calories. You take a cup of zucchini noodles. That's 20 calories. So I'm not telling you to replace one with the other, although that's a great thing you could try. But you can do half and half Get half the pasta, half the noodles. You'll have the same volume that goes in your stomach, but you're going to reduce the calories by 40%. That's a nice little hack where you still have the delicious taste of the pasta and then maybe a little bit crunchiness of the zucchini, and yet it's all this giant bowl of noodles. It's great.

Philip Pape: 12:33

Consider soups, right? Studies have shown that having soup before a meal can reduce total calorie intake by up to 20% because the water content increases your stomach volume. It also triggers satiety signals. There's something to be said for having actual calories in the soup versus just, say, drinking water before the meal. And I'm a big fan of vegetable soups as well during fat loss, largely for that reason and this isn't just a theoretical approach, right, this is like a data-driven thing that you can easily measure and figure out as you are planning, as you're doing your meal plans, and you think about okay, what does the thing weigh versus how many calories it has? Simple math, right? I'll give you another cool example. You look at popcorn in the store, grocery store, and notice the back. You'll see 28 grams of popcorn is a serving. Well, 28 grams is the weight. But now look how many cups are in that 28 grams. A regular salted, simple air pop popcorn is going to have like four cups for that 28 grams. The dense sugary kettle corn might only have like one and a half. And it's kind of tricky because you're looking at it and saying, well, they're both 28 grams, yeah, but the amount you get for the 28 grams is vastly different.

Philip Pape: 13:42

Okay, approach number four here involves the food structure in the physical form of food and manipulating it. Okay, so listen up here. This is another hack for you. All, right, air. How many calories are in air Zero? Okay, air is calorie free. So if you can incorporate air into foods, it increases their volume without adding calories. In fact, this is how ice cream makers make cheap ice cream they add air to it and it gets, takes up more space for fewer calories. They can then say it's this low calorie ice cream and it's just not as good as the really rich dense stuff, right, but it has fewer calories because there's more air. This is also why a cup of air-popped popcorn has fewer calories than a cup of kettle corn, because there's more air and there's less dense material.

Philip Pape: 14:29

Segueing from the example I just gave you earlier. Now it's more than just air. The physical form of food impacts how A typical medium apple has like 95 calories, 100 calories. If you juice the apple, you're going to consume way more than one apple's worth of juice to feel satisfied, right? That's just intuitive. And then you're going to double, triple your calorie intake. Of course, it's all sugar. You're not going to get fiber, yada, yada.

Philip Pape: 14:58

On the other hand, foods that require more chewing, for example, lead to greater satiety with fewer calories, and that's partly due to the additional time that it takes to eat them. There's also some, I believe, some hormonal triggers from your saliva as well, but even the additional time that allows your body satiety signals to kick in in your stomach and your gut and so on, and so we can use this principle by choosing foods that have more complex structures, that take up more space and require more chewing. So we're thinking harder foods that have more complex structures, that take up more space and require more chewing. So we're thinking harder foods that require more chewing. I actually first heard this from Dr Eric Trexler probably a couple of years ago, and I continue to use this as a phenomenal tool.

Philip Pape: 15:38

An example would be always choosing whole fruits. You know you're not gonna drink. I hope you're not drinking fruit juice during fat loss anyway. I mean, you can and you can plan for it and put it in your macros and all that, but the whole fruits are going to take you much farther. Or even fresh fruits versus dried fruits, of course.

Philip Pape: 15:54

Um, opting for popcorn instead of chips. I think popcorn is a great hack during fat loss. It really is, because it has a lot of the characteristics of, you know, salty, crunchy snack foods, but it's significantly less calorie impact. And again, you could get light kettle corn. You don't have to go all out with just plain popcorn. If that's not your jam, you could still have something flavorful. There's so many things. You could put really nice seasoning on it, some spices and so on, making it home, whatever.

Philip Pape: 16:21

And then also picking foods that require chewing over those that don't. And one thing that comes to mind here is meat. You know, when you think of like chicken breast, it does require a lot of chewing. You know lean pork, and it has a lot of other benefits too, not least of which is all the protein. So if you can include more structurally complex foods in your diet, you can increase the volume and the satisfaction of your meals and reduce calorie intake. All right, there's a pattern here. That's why I'm doing this episode.

Philip Pape: 16:48

And then the last approach, number five is meal timing and frequency. So optimizing timing and frequency, which, during fat loss, can be really important for a number of reasons. So let's talk about what the research says. Eating the same amount of calories spread across. More frequent, smaller meals can increase satiety compared to fewer, larger meals, and that is simply related to blood sugar. That's because more frequent meals are going to maintain more stable blood sugar and again, I'm not, you know, blood sugar is not a boogeyman. Blood sugar spikes aren't the problem. None of that is what I'm talking about. I'm just talking about your hunger signals, because you have stable blood sugar and more opportunities for the body to signal fullness when you have frequent meals.

Philip Pape: 17:31

Now, these aren't always universal. Some people do a little bit better with fewer meals, space more tightly together where they have a fasting window. Right, you could say you could call it intermittent fasting, but it may not. It may just be a you know, a little bit later breakfast, a little bit earlier dinner type of deal, especially when there are lower calories. So it really depends, your body will adapt. But in general, more frequent meals that are like a modest size and not too tiny are going to give you stable blood sugar if they're balanced, you know protein, carbs, fats, and then they're going to signal fullness. So if you have like a 2000 calorie daily budget for fat loss this is just an example, I know you might have less you could eat 2000 calorie meals, or you can eat four 500 calorie meals, you know, and four or 500 calories is around the point where I would call it a meal. Less than that could get a little bit tricky here, because it might not be enough to make you feel full. Of course it depends on what. It is right. The total calories are going to be the same, but the four-meal approach keeps you in a fed state longer and reduces the extreme hunger between meals again, in general.

Philip Pape: 18:32

Also another trick front-loading calories earlier in the day. Right, you've always heard like having breakfast is a good thing to do. It aligns better with your circadian rhythm and that tends to result in better hormonal responses. You know we think of cortisol, for example, and less nighttime hunger. Believe it or not, eating earlier in the day, even though I've often recommended sometimes reserving some calories for later in the day because of late night hunger. Sometimes it's because you're not front-loading the protein and the calories earlier in the day.

Philip Pape: 19:02

So it's worth trying these things out. It's worth trying them out at the very least and see what works for you. So, from a systems perspective, we are optimizing the distribution of energy across time to maximize satiety and minimize hunger. It's kind of like if you can track when you're having your meals and then compare that to your hunger, you can then experiment and find the optimal point right. It's this intelligent personal structure for your meal timing and frequency that works with however your body's natural naturally works. However your body naturally works, okay, so I want to tie all of this together. I just gave you five really cool approaches. I hope at least one of them is going to help, be helpful to you and um the.

Philip Pape: 19:43

The real power here is is really combining them systematically. So, again, you don't have to do them all, but my most successful clients are generally doing all of these at some point and you build it up as a set of skills. So imagine combining higher protein intake, which you should be doing anyway before you even hit fat loss. Fat loss. Increased fiber same thing. Lower food density right, we're talking about calorie density. More complex foods that require chewing, optimizing your meal timing and frequency. The compounding effect of all of these will create a calorie deficit that does not feel anything like a typical diet that you've experienced in the past, where you were just slashing and burning and cutting and just feeling miserable. So definitely give it a shot.

Philip Pape: 20:28

Start with one, proceed to the next and the next and see how it helps with your hunger signals and your fullness, so that you can eat more quote unquote more food and in some cases, literally it is more in terms of volume and still maintain the calories or maintain the fat loss without as much hunger. And again, this is being smart and efficient. This is it. It's not trying to be a disciplined, will-powered, white-knuckling your way through dieting. No, it's understanding the physical and the biochemical properties of food and then using that knowledge to your advantage.

Philip Pape: 20:58

And then, when you approach the diet from that perspective, you realize that both eat less to lose weight and eat more to lose weight are actually oversimplifications. I think the more accurate statement would be maintain a calorie deficit to lose fat, but optimize your food choices so you can eat more volume while doing so. I know it's not short, punchy and sexy, but it's the truth and it's based on science and reality. And this not only makes fat loss more effective, but also the S word more sustainable. And sustainability is the key to long-term success. Because, after all, the best diet I'll say it over and over again to the cows come home the best diet is the one you can stick to.

Philip Pape: 21:39

By applying these evidence-based principles to your nutrition, you then transform what is a white-knuckled crash diet weight loss journey to a systematic approach that aligns with their body's natural process, and that's super important. That is an important shift. We don't want to be battling hunger. You're going to have a little bit of it, but you don't want to feel like you're constantly fighting it, especially if you have a history of a higher appetite than someone else.

Philip Pape: 22:06

If you want to learn more about how to do all of this, how to optimize your nutrition without the struggle, check out Whitson Weights Physique University. In there, we provide you everything you need the tools, the methods, the onboarding, the support, custom nutrition plans, workshops, courses all of that. We don't make it overwhelming. We guide you step by step from the beginning and have myself, my team, supporting you. We incorporate the principles we discussed today, tailored to your needs. We tell you how to tailor them as well. Personalized support. You get access to workout programs, challenges, a community check-ins, all of it. Go to witsandweightscom slash physique or click the link in the show notes to learn more. All right, until next time, keep using your wits lifting those weights and remember smart nutrition is not about restricting yourself. It's about getting more from less. This is Philip Pape, and you've been listening to the Wits and Weights podcast.

7 Benefits of Sprinting to Lose Fat (And Why It Beats Cardio, Especially for Lifters!) | Ep 293

Get FREE access to our live workshop on adding sprinting to your training in Wits & Weights Physique University (WWPU) plus a custom nutrition plan, live coaching calls, monthly workout programs and challenges, weekly check-ins, a supportive community, a resource vault, and courses on fat loss, physique development, and more!

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What's the best form of cardio for fat loss? If you lift weights, will cardio kill your gains?

Learn why SPRINTING is the secret weapon for lifters who want explosive strength and a leaner physique without compromising their gains.

Discover how this form of high-intensity movement complements your strength, power, and muscle development while accelerating fat loss.

Main Takeaways:

• Sprinting recruits the same type II muscle fibers you use during heavy lifting

• The hormonal response to sprinting is more similar to heavy lifting than cardio

• You'll burn fat more efficiently while preserving muscle mass

• Just 1-2 short sessions per week creates significant benefits for lifters

Episode Resources:

• Join WWPU and get access to tomorrow's live sprinting workshop and your first challenge + 2 weeks FREE: witsandweights.com/physique

• Related episode: Walking vs. Running for Fat Loss and Longevity (Brad Kearns)

Timestamps:

0:00 - Why sprinting is different from cardio 
4:33 - The problem with traditional cardio
6:52 - 7 benefits of sprinting for lifters
7:22 - Benefit #1: Improved conditioning without muscle loss
9:09 - Benefit #2: Enhanced fat loss while preserving strength
10:23 - Benefit #3: Explosive power development
11:25 - Benefit #4: Optimized hormonal environment
12:27 - Benefit #5: Direct strength carryover
14:00 - Benefit #6: Enhanced recovery capacity
15:37 - Benefit #7: Mental toughness & power output
16:34 - The sprinting protocol explained 
21:30 - Implementing sprinting efficiently in your training

Why Sprinting is the Ultimate Fat-Loss Tool for Lifters

If you’re lifting weights and want to lose fat while maintaining muscle, you’ve probably asked: What’s the best form of cardio? Or maybe you’ve heard that cardio can kill your gains. The truth? Traditional cardio might not be doing you any favors—but sprinting? Sprinting is an entirely different beast.

Sprinting isn't just another high-intensity workout. It's a tool that enhances fat loss, builds explosive power, and even improves recovery—without sacrificing your hard-earned muscle. If you’ve been avoiding cardio or dreading long, exhausting HIIT circuits, it’s time to rethink your strategy.

Let’s break down why sprinting should be in every lifter’s arsenal and how to implement it properly.

The Problem with Traditional Cardio for Lifters

Many lifters either overdo cardio or avoid it entirely. The problem is that traditional forms of endurance cardio—like jogging, cycling, or long HIIT circuits—can interfere with muscle growth and strength gains. Here’s why:

• It can increase cortisol levels – Long-duration cardio can keep stress hormones elevated, making recovery harder.

• It competes with strength adaptations – Your body isn’t sure if it should be in endurance mode or muscle-building mode.

• It can lead to muscle breakdown – Extended cardio sessions tap into muscle tissue for energy, reducing overall muscle mass.

But lumping all conditioning into the same category is a mistake. Sprinting is not the same as endurance cardio.

Why Sprinting is Different

Sprinting is a pure, explosive movement, similar to lifting heavy weights. When done correctly, it taps into your fast-twitch muscle fibers, improves power output, and creates a hormonal response that supports fat loss while preserving muscle.

Think about the difference in physique between an elite sprinter and a long-distance runner. Sprinting builds a strong, muscular, and powerful body. Long-distance running? Not so much.

And the best part? Sprinting is time-efficient—a few short, all-out efforts provide massive benefits in a fraction of the time compared to traditional cardio.

7 Research-Backed Benefits of Sprinting for Lifters

1. Boosts Conditioning Without Muscle Loss

Sprinting trains the phosphagen energy system—the same system used for heavy lifting. This means you can improve work capacity and recovery between sets without the downsides of endurance cardio.

2. Accelerates Fat Loss

Sprinting triggers excess post-exercise oxygen consumption (EPOC), keeping your metabolism elevated long after your workout. Unlike HIIT, which can push your body into excessive stress mode, sprinting gives you the calorie burn benefits without the hormonal downsides.

3. Develops Explosive Power

Every sprint is a full-body plyometric movement, training your nervous system to generate maximum force in minimal time. This translates directly to better performance in heavy squats, deadlifts, and other compound lifts.

4. Creates a Hormonal Environment for Muscle Growth

Sprinting increases testosterone and growth hormone while reducing cortisol. It also improves insulin sensitivity, which helps with nutrient partitioning—meaning more of your food goes toward muscle repair and less toward fat storage.

5. Carries Over to Strength and Lifting Mechanics

Sprint mechanics improve hip drive, triple extension (ankle, knee, and hip coordination), and overall movement efficiency. This has direct benefits for squats, deadlifts, and athletic performance.

6. Enhances Recovery Between Workouts

Sprinting strengthens connective tissue, improves blood flow, and reduces inflammation. Since it's short-duration, it doesn’t tax your recovery like traditional cardio, making it an ideal complement to strength training.

7. Builds Mental Toughness and Maximum Power Output

Sprinting forces you to push through short, high-intensity efforts—similar to heavy lifting. Training at max effort expands your mental resilience and your ability to push harder in the gym.

How to Incorporate Sprinting (Without Overdoing It)

Sprinting is not something you jump into full speed on day one. Proper implementation is key. Here’s a simple, effective sprinting protocol inspired by Brad Kearns:

The Sprinting Protocol:

• 4 to 8 sets of 10 to 20 seconds all-out sprints

• Rest for 6x the sprint duration (e.g., if you sprint for 10 seconds, rest for 60 seconds)

• Do this 1-2 times per week

• Start on a bike or incline before moving to flat ground sprints

Key points:

• Sprint at max effort—99-100% intensity

• Rest fully between sprints to maintain high output

• Begin with fewer sets and work your way up

• If speed drops off, stop the session (sprinting at reduced intensity becomes just another cardio session)

Sprinting Surfaces:

• Best: Bike, sled pushes, hills, stairs (low impact)

• Progression: Gradual transition to flat-ground sprints (avoid cushioned running shoes)

For most lifters, twice a week is enough—one session on a bike, one on flat ground. This gives you all the benefits without interfering with lifting.

Why Sprinting is a Game Changer for Lifters

Sprinting isn't just cardio—it’s a force multiplier for your training. It burns fat, builds explosive power, enhances recovery, and improves work capacity—all without sacrificing muscle.

By adding sprints to your routine just twice a week, you can unlock a new level of athleticism, conditioning, and fat loss that supports your lifting goals instead of working against them.

So if you’ve been hesitant to add cardio, give sprinting a try. It’s short, efficient, and—when done right—it’s one of the best fat-loss and performance-boosting tools for lifters.

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Transcript

Philip Pape: 0:01

One of the most common questions I get is what do I do for cardio or will cardio kill my gains? Well, forget traditional cardio, hiit workouts or metabolic conditioning. There's a form of high-intensity movement that's completely different, one that can complement your strength, power and muscle development while accelerating fat loss. Today, we're uncovering why sprinting true anaerobic sprinting is the secret weapon for lifters who want explosive strength and a leaner physique without compromising their gains. You'll learn the science behind why sprinting complements muscle building, while other forms of conditioning tend to break it down, and exactly how to implement it to accelerate your results. Welcome to Wits and Weights, the show that helps you build a strong, healthy physique using evidence, engineering and efficiency. I'm your host, philip Pape, and today we are examining why sprinting belongs in every serious lifter's training arsenal. Let me be clear we are not talking about cardio jogging or those exhausting HIIT circuits that leave you drained. We are talking about pure, explosive, anaerobic work, the kind that triggers muscle fiber recruitment and hormonal responses similar to heavy lifting. Even if you've sworn off cardio to protect your gains, the unique benefits of proper sprinting might change your mind. Now, before we get into these benefits, I want to tell you about two exciting things happening in our Wits and Weights Physique University coaching program. First, tomorrow I am hosting a live workshop where I'll break down my complete sprinting protocol the exact method I use with clients to accelerate results, to improve fat loss, to get leaner without losing muscle, and it is really a game changer. If you're wondering how to implement your quote unquote cardio Plus, we are kicking off our first ever transformation challenge in the community. We're going to have monthly challenges going forward and when you join WWPU now today, you're going to get free access to both the workshop and the challenge and 14 days of access to sort of kick the tires and see what it's all about. So click the link in the show notes or head to witsandweightscom slash physique to learn all about Physique University and everything that's included, as well as get free access for two weeks and you'll have access to tomorrow's workshop on sprinting. As well as get free access for two weeks and you'll have access to tomorrow's workshop on sprinting as well as our first challenge all the resources associated with that, as soon as you join.

Philip Pape: 2:33

All right, let's break this down into three segments when we cover sprinting today. First, I'm going to talk about what most lifters get wrong about cardio and conditioning and why sprinting is fundamentally different. It is its own term, sprinting. We don't want to confuse that with running totally different things. And that's the first thing. Second, we're going to explore seven research-backed benefits that make sprinting uniquely valuable in and of itself for anyone focused on building strength and muscle. This is something I'm personally incorporating now that I wasn't before. It is a game changer. It's a level up in my personal education, both as a podcaster and a coach, and also for my clients. Finally, I'm gonna outline the framework for implementing sprinting in your training without compromising your primary goals. And again, if you wanna join us for tomorrow's live workshop in the Physique University, just join today. Again, you can cancel literally right after the workshop if you don't think it's for you, but at least you can be there. It's live, it's on Zoom, you'll get all the resources, you'll get the guide and I'm going to go over specific protocols in much more detail than what I'm covering today.

Philip Pape: 3:35

All right, let's start with the elephant in the room, which is this widespread fear of cardio in the lifting community, and there's either a fear of it, or people are doing it wrong, or they think they have to do a lot of it, or that it's the way to instigate fat loss. And I've done other episodes about cardio itself and the value of walking as opposed to doing chronic what's called metronomic cardio like running. But then we have on the other side people saying well, I have heard that too much cardio is going to interfere with my recovery, interfere with my gains, so I'm just not going to do it at all. And I think I think the fear isn't entirely unfounded because traditional cardio training that we are all used to in our head, which is, you know, excessive, oftentimes incorrectly in terms of form, especially if you're a runner. There's a lot of heel striking, cushioned shoes, just terrible for your joints, for your recovery, for muscle tearing. That can definitely interfere with muscle growth and strength development, for sure.

Philip Pape: 4:33

And there is solid evidence showing that too much endurance work can elevate cortisol. Especially when you have these long sessions and now you're just taking that cortisol up chronically. It can create excessive systemic fatigue and then that impacts your lifting performance. You get to the gym and now you're sluggish, you're drained, you can't push as heavy or hard. It can generate competing adaptation signals to your muscle development. So your body's like am I in endurance mode or am I in muscle building mode and then they increase your overall inflammation and keep you under-recovered just indefinitely, so to speak.

Philip Pape: 5:09

Where most people get this wrong, though, is they lump all forms of conditioning into the same category. Right, they hear cardio and they immediately think of long runs and less psyching, the brutal hit circuits for those of us who are familiar with CrossFit or F45, and they kind of destroy you, right, and for some people, that's a badge of honor. Yeah, it killed me, it destroyed me, I couldn't get up. That is not a good thing. Now, this is like saying that all resistance training is the same, whether you're doing lightweight, high rep pump work or heavy compound movements. No, it's not all the same.

Philip Pape: 5:38

The stimulus matters enormously, and sprinting is fundamentally different. It's a unique form of I don't even know if I call it conditioning, but it's definitely a specialization that is missing from a lot of our repertoires. It is not endurance work, right. It's not even really cardio in the traditional sense, because, true, sprinting is a pure expression of power, right, it's more like an explosive lift, that concentric on your bench press or your squat, than a conditioning session, and when you sprint properly, you're recruiting the same type two muscle fibers that you target during heavy squats or deadlifts, you're actually training your nervous system to generate maximum force in minimal time. And, just as a side tangent, look at the physiques of a 100 meter, 200 meter sprinter and compare that to a long distance runner. I'm not saying it's all about physique, but there is a difference in how the body expresses and develops itself to support that specialty. And this distinction is really important because it completely changes how your body responds to training. Instead of breaking down muscle tissue to fuel this long duration work, you're actually creating an anabolic environment that supports muscle growth and strength development.

Philip Pape: 6:52

We're going to touch on this a little bit. I don't want you to think that sprinting itself is how you build muscle, but it supports it and it can complement it in really almost magical ways. It's pretty incredible. So that's why sprinting is different. Now I want to break down the seven specific benefits that make it uniquely valuable for lifters. I'm of a mind now that everyone should be doing this. These are not theoretical. They're backed by research, they're backed by real world experience with athletes, with lifters, and so I'm going to go through each one.

Philip Pape: 7:22

Number one is you can improve your conditioning very effectively without muscle loss. And the first and most immediate benefit here is really related to improved work capacity, but without any of the downsides of traditional cardio phosphagen energy system, right, the ATP-CP, the adenosine triphosphate, creatine phosphate system, and that is the same one you use for heavy lifts as opposed to your glycolytic glycogen burning system, and so that means you're going to have better recovery between sets during your lifting sessions. Because you have this higher work capacity, you have an enhanced ability to sustain your intensity throughout your workouts and then improved overall training capacity, but without breaking down muscle in the process. And I don't want to make it sound like all other forms of cardio aren't going to help you get conditioned. I do think you can do low-grade workouts, intent, like what they call low intensity, steady state cardio, and as long as it's not running, um, if it's something that's concentrically focused, like being on a bike or swimming or pushing a prowler, I still I still can recommend that to like. It's not going to necessarily hurt doing that. If it's done a couple of times a week, you know for far less of the amount of time as you lift weights. That's still the benchmark. I still stand by that. You don't necessarily need to do it. In fact, I would prefer you just walk and sometimes make your walking a little bit harder like rucking weighted vests, inclines, walking really fast, things like that than those other forms of cardio.

Philip Pape: 8:55

And then add sprinting in for its unique benefits. Trust me, sprinting is its own thing. You've got to be doing this. Number two so okay, so that's number one. It increases your work capacity without any of the downsides. Number two it enhances fat loss.

Philip Pape: 9:09

Okay, and this I used to be skeptical over. I didn't understand quite why that would be the case. But there's a few different reasons for it. One has to do with hormones, which we're actually going to put into a separate category and talk about in a moment. For this one, I'm just going to focus on what they call the EPOC effect excess post-exercise oxygen consumption, where your body stays in a heightened metabolic state for hours after your session.

Philip Pape: 9:34

So this really does kind of come down to a little bit of a calorie burn thing, right, kind of like when the benefits of HIIT that they've said. Well, with HIIT you can burn a lot of calories in a short amount of time. The problem with HIIT is you could push past that fat burning point into the height, the stress triggering point. With sprinting you don't get to that point. So you're kind of like giving yourself a little bit of a boost is what I like to think of it and your body will kind of tail off into that calorie burn long after you finish, which is pretty cool. And then your body's going to preferentially burn fat because of the mode of the anaerobic mode of training. And of course, you maintain muscle mass because you're triggering strength, not endurance. So that also enhances fat loss, right. So all these little side effects of sprinting where your body perceives it as more of a strength activity rather than an endurance activity, and yet you get the cardio benefits.

Philip Pape: 10:23

Number three is explosive power development. This is where sprinting kind of stands on its own, other than dynamic effort type work. So what I mean by that is for anybody who's used to using speed work in the gym, where you might use a submaximal weight for just a few reps but then you might do like 10 sets with very short rest periods and use explosive force. It's kind of in that regime, right, but a lot of people are not doing that in their programming, nor do you necessarily have to. But this is definitely where sprinting shines, because every sprint is essentially a full body plyometric movement. Right, you're teaching your body to generate maximum force in minimal time, to recruit those high threshold motor units, to improve the rate of force development, and all of these directly carry over to your lifting performance. I would be interested to see if you incorporate sprinting, how it actually improves potentially some of your lifts and definitely lower body lifts, but just lifts in general, all right.

Philip Pape: 11:25

Benefit number four is the optimized hormonal environment. So the hormonal response to sprinting is really helpful and critical. It's more similar to heavy lifting than traditional cardio. We're talking about increased testosterone, growth hormone, lower cortisol response. It's like how lifting increases your stress and blood pressure in the moment the acute response but it lowers the chronic response compared to endurance work, whereas endurance activity excuse me, cardio could actually ramp that up and increase your stress. I know people say well, I run to relieve stress and it's enjoyable. That's like saying I drink alcohol to relieve stress. It doesn't quite work because it actually increases your chronic stress. It increases your insulin sensitivity as well, which is incredible, and that helps with nutrient partitioning and fat loss and your health markers all around. We know blood sugar control again same effect as lifting has, but this is a form of quote unquote cardio. So that's benefit number four is the hormonal environment hugely beneficial.

Philip Pape: 12:27

Benefit number five is the direct strength carryover, which I've already alluded to, but I wanted to put it in its own item because the movement patterns in sprinting can enhance your lifting mechanics for primarily the lower body lifts. Think about your hip drive, right, which is critical for squats and deadlifts, not just the hip drive, but really the development systemically of your body as a system. Right, it's a movement pattern. It's the same reason we like to do full body squats is. It recruits all the muscles in synchrony, right as an orchestrated system. So you think your squats and deadlifts could potentially be enhanced.

Philip Pape: 13:06

You get better at what's called triple extension your ankles, your knees, your hips, the three joints. When you think compound lift is because multiple joints are involved. When you do a squat, your ankles, your knees and your hips are involved and studies have shown sprinting can improve your triple extension. So if you're like, hey, my ankles are tight or I don't feel like I have the range or they're, you know, my knees have been bothering me, sprinting might be able to help with that, believe it or not, whereas running can often have the opposite effect. It could really bang up your knees and ankles, especially the way most people do it. And so then you get improved overall body coordination and control. I mean, look, when you sprint, it is a primal, invigorating movement that is very human and it puts you, it enhances your mind muscle connection like few other things. And so think about how that carries directly over to lifting. All right.

Philip Pape: 14:00

Number six the benefit of sprinting is your recovery capacity. Now, this is a little bit different than the work capacity. This is recovery between sessions. So proper sprinting, it does a few things. That helps recovery. And again, it seems counterintuitive because it's this very explosive. It seems like a taxing thing sprinting itself. But remember, it's extremely short, at least the protocol we're going to talk about. Stick around.

Philip Pape: 14:26

I'm going to talk about the protocol in a bit. It's extremely short and it does not go past into that stressful regime. So what it does do is it strengthens your connective tissue, it improves blood flow without creating the excessive inflammation, and so it helps you build your work capacity gradually and systematically. And, by the way, when you start sprinting it's pretty much going to gas you. You're probably not going to be able to do the full protocol, trust me, even if you're quote-unquote fit, you may not be able to handle the full protocol on day one. You're going to work up to it and once you can do the full number of sets, then you're just going to get faster and faster. That's the way you're going to progress. You're not going to add more time, you're never going to add more sets. You're going to get up to sort of the main protocol and then you're going to get faster and faster. And that is I mean, that's almost, I guess proof that it's going to improve your conditioning in that sense. Only because you're not able to do it as much. The first session, and then you can the second, and then better and better and better. Right, but anyway, this enhances recovery capacity between your lifting sessions, which is why well, not why, but I like doing sprinting on an off day or on an upper body day later on, far removed from your lifting.

Philip Pape: 15:37

And then number seven, the final benefit I want to talk about today is the mental toughness and power output. I'm just kind of linking these together. The psychological demands of sprinting are unique. Now that I've done it I've started doing it myself I recognize that it's its own form of mental resilience because, say, unlike grinding through a long set or a cardio session, that's a different mental issue or mental challenge Sprinting. It requires you to be completely focused for short, intense bursts, which reminds me a lot of like a single rep of a very heavy squat, for example. It requires you to generate maximum effort on command and it creates mental resilience that, I believe, carries over to heavy lifting, and so they complement each other. So you notice, all of this is very much overlapping with lifting weights and yet it gives you the benefits of cardio.

Philip Pape: 16:34

So what could be better for lifters? That's my argument to you. That's my question is what could be better? Do you see a problem with this? So I like to use a protocol, now that it's inspired by Brad Kearns. He was on the show. I've actually, you know, googled, researched, used AI to explore lots of different protocols and I could see why Brad ended up at this particular one. Because it's just simple, it makes sense and it does the job, and he and the way it, the way it goes, is as simple.

Philip Pape: 17:04

You do four to eight sets of 10 to 20 seconds all out, with six times the rest period. Okay, hopefully I didn't confuse you too much. So, 10 to 20 seconds. All out. And all out literally means all out, like you are hauling ass at the maximum possible effort. I mean 99.9%, if not 100%. If that's possible, all right. For 10 to 20 seconds, then you take six times that duration of rest. So if you go for 10 seconds, you rest for at least 60 seconds. If you're able to go the full 20 seconds, you rest for at least two minutes. And I say at least you can rest longer.

Philip Pape: 17:42

The whole point is getting completely recovered. In fact, you might need to rest a little longer at first. And then you do that four to eight times. And let me tell you, when you do this the first time, you may barely get four of those sets and don't try to get a fifth or sixth. If your speed is dropping off, you have to go all out. If you're not going all out, you're done, you're done. Don't push it, or else you're going to get the negative effects of any other form of cardio. You're getting passed into that stress point. So, four to eight sets, 10 to 20 seconds all out, six, x times the rest period versus the work period.

Philip Pape: 18:14

Now how can you do this? Do you have to do this on flat ground. No, you could do this on a machine like a bike or elliptical or even a stair climber, and I would, in fact, encourage that initially, while you're working up to it, or use stairs or use a hill, because that'll be a lot easier on some of your joints that aren't used to this yet your calves, your shins, your ankles and then work up to the flat ground. So the way I'm doing it is I'm using a bike twice a week and as we get towards spring and everything's starting to thaw because we still have a lot of snow and ice I'm going to be adapted enough. I should be able to comfortably be getting all eight sets. I'm up to like six or seven right now because it is that difficult in a good way, and I consider myself pretty fit. I have a resting heart rate of like 45, and yet I need to adapt to this and train for it. So you know, I'm going to get up to my eight sets twice a week and then I can incorporate at least one of those as flat ground sprinting once a week.

Philip Pape: 19:07

Um, and I picked up some barefoot footwear for it to give that a shot. But cause I would? I would avoid using like cushioned running shoes, because that introduces the same kind of problems that you get from running in those shoes. So that's what I would do. I wouldn't do this twice a week on flat ground like running. Uh, you know, ground-based sprinting. I know we like to call it running, but it's not running, it's sprinting. I would do at least one of those on a machine, or both of them, and only limit your flat ground sprinting to no more than once a week and give it a shot.

Philip Pape: 19:35

Give you know again if you join physique university today for a free trial and then join our workshop tomorrow and, by the way, the workshop will have a replay, in case you're listening to this episode and it's too late for the workshop, which is, um, tomorrow, tuesday, uh, whatever the date is, I'm sorry I don't. I'm recording this ahead of time, um, but whenever this episode came out, tuesday at 12 PM Eastern, the replay will be available. But in that workshop I'm going to break down how you can incorporate this into your, your programming, very specifically, with all the options, with all the ways to do it, with how to progress it and all of that. So today I just gave you the basics and that's enough to run with pun intended dad joke to sprint with, I should say. But in the workshop we're going to go over the details, all right.

Philip Pape: 20:19

So one thing that's fascinating that people miss about sprinting is it starts to reframe how you define intensity, right. It's kind of like what happened to me when I started lifting weights and I realized that the word intensity in the lifting community refers to the weight on the bar, not how much you're pushing it or how much you're sweating or your heart rate goes up. So sprinting kind of has a similar thing. When you, when you experience true maximal output in a sprint, it starts to create a. You experience true maximal output in a sprint, it starts to create a new reference point for effort in your training. That heavy set of squats that felt like a 10 RPE might now feel like an eight. Think about how mind-blowing and amazingly helpful that could be because your capacity to generate force, to recruit muscle fiber, to push past perceived limits Remember, some of this is just mental.

Philip Pape: 21:06

Some of this is just mental. It all expands your base, expands of your explosiveness, your power, your perception of what hard is, and that's why sprinting is not just oh, it's just another training tool. It's a catalyst. It can enhance everything else you do in the gym, right? You're not just adding more work, which is typically what we do with cardio. It's adding the right kind of work that amplifies your primary training goal.

Philip Pape: 21:30

So the last thing I'm going to say about sprinting for lifters it's simple and it's efficient. That's the essence of this show, isn't it? It's simple and efficient. You don't need complex protocols or hours of your time. A few short, like one or two a week, which would take maybe 15, I mean, do the math but 15 to 20 minutes tops with all the rest. It's mostly rest, let's be honest. But one or two short focus sessions can dramatically improve your body's ability to build muscle, to burn fat, to generate power. You are going to feel super athletic, you're gonna feel even younger than you already are feeling from lifting weights and when you program it correctly, it becomes a force multiplier for everything else you're doing in the gym.

Philip Pape: 22:11

So if you want to take your training and physique to the next level, now's the perfect time to join Wits and Weights Physique University so you get access to tomorrow's sprinting protocol workshop plus free entry into our upcoming challenge when you join this week. By the way, these challenges we do they're going to be mini challenges about 10 days long. They're not going to be like an entire month every time, month after month. That's going to burn people out. I'm all about efficiency. It's 10 days. We level up one skill. The first challenge is going to be about actually steps right. So we're going to give you some fun ways to level up your steps not just step count, but different things to try to make it more fun and interesting part of your life.

Philip Pape: 22:46

So all of this stuff, it's not theory. We give you systems, we give you support to build your best physique using these tools. So you don't have to do chronic cardio, you don't have to restrict food, all of the things we onboard you. We give you a custom nutrition plan. We give you monthly workouts, the monthly challenges and tons and tons of support and great people in there who are super curious and excited. So if you're a curious person who just wants to learn and you want to get pretty much as much education as you would get in a nutrition certification, but as a person who just wants to level up their physique, go to winstonweightscom slash physique or click the link in the show notes to join Today. Two weeks free, free challenge, free workshop. I'll see you there Until next time. Keep using your wits lifting those weights and remember that getting lean doesn't mean endless hours of cardio. It means training with purpose and with power. I'll talk to you next time here on the Wits and Weights Podcast.

Why Women NEED to Bulk for Long-Term Strength and Longevity (Niki Sims) | Ep 292

Download my free Strength Training for Hormone Health guide to optimize your hormones, boost your metabolism, and maintain muscle mass for life.

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Are you worried that lifting heavy will make you "too bulky"? What's holding you back from building muscle as a woman?

I'm joined by Nikki Sims, strength coach, and Chief Experience Officer at Barbell Logic, to break down why most women are leaving huge muscle and strength gains on the table and how understanding the science of muscle growth can change your fitness journey.

Nikki also shares her journey from skinny to strong, her experience with bulking and cutting phases, and the biggest lessons she's learned from coaching women for over a decade.

Today, you’ll learn all about:

02:09 - Why do many women fear their physical potential?
03:58 - The influence of media and beauty standards
07:12 - From aesthetics to strength and performance
10:49 - Strength training as a gateway to confidence
19:11 - Can you be "too strong" or "too muscular"?
27:17 - Nikki’s personal bulking and cutting experiences
32:39 - Gaining weight vs "getting fat"
39:31 - How long should you bulk?
50:33 - Building muscle even when you can't squat or deadlift
56:20 - The surprising mental health benefits of lifting heavy
1:06:19 - Why every woman should get a strength coach
1:10:00 - Outro

Why Women Need to Bulk to Stay Strong and Healthy for Life

If you’ve ever worried that lifting heavy or gaining weight would make you look “too bulky,” it’s time to throw that fear out the window. The truth is, building muscle is one of the best things women can do for their strength, confidence, and long-term health. And no, you’re not going to wake up looking like a bodybuilder overnight—because that takes years of intentional effort.

Strength coach Niki Sims joined me on Wits & Weights to talk about why so many women hold themselves back from getting stronger, how to bulk strategically without unnecessary fat gain, and why this shift in perspective could completely change your fitness journey.

Why Women Fear Muscle (and Why They Shouldn’t)

Women have been conditioned to believe that getting stronger means getting “big and bulky.” Niki pointed out that this fear is rooted in outdated beauty standards from the ‘90s and early 2000s—the era of ultra-thin models and low-rise jeans. Society told women that being as small as possible was the goal, and lifting weights seemed to be the opposite of that.

But here’s the reality:

• Muscle doesn’t appear overnight. Even men, who have significantly more testosterone, take years of dedicated training to build serious muscle mass.

• Getting stronger makes you look better, not bigger. A well-trained body isn’t “bulky”—it’s athletic, powerful, and lean.

• You won’t gain muscle by accident. Building muscle requires strategic training, progressive overload, and enough food to support it.

Strength vs. Aesthetics

Shifting the focus from appearance to performance changes everything. Instead of worrying about getting too big, imagine being able to deadlift your body weight, carry your own luggage without struggling, or maintain your strength well into your 70s and 80s.

Strength training helps women:

• Prevent osteoporosis by increasing bone density.

• Boost metabolism by maintaining lean muscle mass.

• Improve body composition—muscle is denser than fat, so even if the scale goes up, your physique will look more toned and firm.

• Enhance confidence by proving to yourself what your body is capable of.

Bulking Without Getting “Fat”

Many women think that “bulking” means eating everything in sight and getting fluffy. Not true. A smart bulking phase is controlled, gradual, and focused on muscle gain, not fat accumulation.

Niki shared her personal experience going from 185 pounds to 155, using strategic bulks and cuts to build muscle while staying comfortable in her body. Her key takeaways for a successful bulk:

1. Eat in a Small Caloric Surplus

A slight increase of 300-500 calories per day is all you need to build muscle without excessive fat gain. This allows your body to use the extra energy for muscle repair and growth.

2. Prioritize Protein

Aim for at least 0.8-1.0 grams of protein per pound of body weight to fuel muscle recovery. Good sources include lean meats, eggs, dairy, and protein supplements if needed.

3. Train with Progressive Overload

To build muscle, you have to challenge your body. This means gradually increasing weight, reps, or intensity in your lifts over time.

4. Measure Progress with Strength and Performance

Instead of obsessing over the scale, track your strength gains, body measurements, and how you feel in your clothes. A slight increase in weight is normal—and necessary—for muscle growth.

5. Give Your Body Time

Muscle-building is a slow process. A bulk should last at least 3-6 months to see meaningful changes before considering a fat-loss phase. Trying to stay too lean year-round prevents muscle growth.

The Mental and Physical Benefits of Strength

Beyond the physical transformation, lifting heavy has profound mental benefits. As Niki put it, “You’re rewarded for how present you are.” Training forces you to be in the moment, to focus, and to build resilience—both mentally and physically.

It’s not just about adding muscle. It’s about training for longevity, being able to move well as you age, and developing an unshakable confidence in what your body can do.

TL;DR — Women NEED to Lift and Eat to Support Muscle Growth

The idea that lifting will make you “bulky” is one of the biggest myths holding women back from reaching their full potential. Strength is not just about aesthetics—it’s about health, longevity, and quality of life.

Instead of fearing muscle, embrace the challenge. Train with intent. Eat to support your performance. And recognize that getting stronger is one of the best gifts you can give yourself for the long haul.

If you’re ready to break free from diet culture and step into your strongest self, start lifting heavy—and don’t be afraid to fuel your body properly.

Episode resources:

• Beast over Burden Podcast

• Instagram: @barbell_logic 

• Youtube: @BeastOverBurden 

• Get a free coaching consultation with Barbell Logic: barbell-logic.com/experience
  

👩‍💻 Book a FREE 15-Minute Rapid Nutrition Assessment:
https://witsandweights.com/free-call

🎓 Get your first challenge FREE (plus 40% off for life) in Wits & Weights Physique University (WWPU) using code POD40

👥 Join our Facebook community for live Q&As & support

👋 Let's connect! Ask a question, get my FREE newsletter, or find me on Instagram

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🫙 Get 20% off Legion supplements with code WITSpod

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Transcript

Philip Pape: 0:01

If you're a woman who's been hesitant to lift heavy or build muscle, worried about getting too bulky or confused by all the conflicting advice about gaining weight, this episode is for you. Join me and strength coach Nikki Sims as we reveal why most women are leaving massive gains on the table and how understanding the science of strength training and muscle is a game changer for giving you confidence with your fitness, so you can finally just get strong. Learn why the fear of getting too muscular is holding you back, discover what actually drives muscle growth in women and get practical tips, as always, to start thriving in strength. Welcome to Wits and Weights, the show that helps you build a strong, healthy physique using evidence, engineering and efficiency. I'm your host, philip Pape, and today we're going to utterly dismantle one of the biggest barriers holding women back from reaching their physique and longevity goals with the one and only Nikki Sims. Oh my gosh. Longevity goals with the one and only Nikki Sims oh my gosh. She's like I'm just Nikki.

Philip Pape: 1:10

Now for those of you who don't know Nikki, and come on, if you don't know her already, go check out her stuff. She is the Chief Experience Officer at Barbellogic. She's host of the Beast Over Burden podcast. Definitely give that a follow. She spent over a decade helping women overcome their fear of building muscle and getting stronger we're going to talk about today, while transforming her own relationship with training and nutrition. By the way, she loves deadlifting. Check out her Instagram profile Best Good stuff. She's up in the four plates and I, for one, I'm a huge fan and stoked to talk with her today. So you are going to learn today what drives muscle growth in women. You're going to learn how to bulk strategically without getting bulky. You're going to learn how to break free from some of the myths and mindsets that hold you back. And stick around, because Nikki will be giving you plenty of tips as we go along to get started later on in the episode. Nikki, thank you for coming on the show.

Niki Sims: 1:59

What an intro man. It's good to be here.

Philip Pape: 2:02

It is awesome to be here. It's so much fun to meet somebody who I've followed for a while through Barbell Logic we talked about before recording. I came from the Starting Strength community and I've shared a lot of your videos with folks, so anybody who's looking for really good form checks go check out your YouTube channel and then definitely follow the podcast. I want to talk about what we're here for today, which is do you find that many women fear their own physical potential?

Niki Sims: 2:28

It's a really good way to put it at the base of what might be happening inside them, and I think they're fearing what they might have to look like in order to be strong, because there's such an instant image that pops into most people's head when they hear I have to put on muscle is that of a stage-ready bodybuilder or someone who's gone really far, and very successfully far down the road of putting on as much muscle as they can, and so I think they're afraid that that's what they are hearing, that they have to become, when it's really not the case.

Niki Sims: 3:04

That may not be the journey for them, and if they want to do it you don't get there by accident. I'm sure you've said this a million times. That doesn't happen on accident. That happens with a lot of hard decisions and a lot of hard work. So, yeah, I think when women are hearing this conversation about needing to put on muscle or hear that they should put on muscle, it's a fear of what could happen to them and it's something that they don't want to happen to them, and that's always worth digging into to learn more about what those words like bulky really mean to them.

Philip Pape: 3:37

Yeah, yeah, because like a man might hear that and be like heck, yeah, like, let's bulk up. You know, and it's a different intonation or a implication. It's funny you mentioned the. You know, it can't happen by accident. You wrote a really good article about this whole topic and get pretty vulnerable in your thoughts on this and you said if you don't want to look bulky for muscle, I'm sure you won't. So I mean, let's just hammer that point home. I'm still surprised having been in the industry for I don't know four years now not a huge amount of time, but long enough to even see trends evolve in that time that this is still a big fear. Let's explore that. Why is that? Is there marketing behind it? Or is it just a lack of clarity with the information out there?

Niki Sims: 4:18

I think it's a fear because, especially, I think, women in my age group and I I'm in my late 30s I have, I think, less than two weeks in my 30s counting down the days we grew up with this idealized image of like Kate Moss or in really thin actresses, and there were even a lot of movies and magazines that told us what it meant to be fat and we were probably all that weight range which was a healthy weight range.

Niki Sims: 4:49

And so there's this and it was shoved into our brains when we were really young and still developing. So it's really hard to break away from this idealized image that we still Part of our brains still think we need to look like that image that we still part of our brain still think we need to look like that. And we're afraid to be far away from that, from those physical characteristics which are really skinny arms, super duper, flat stomach, the worst jeans ever, which are the low rise jeans Like you can only wear those if you are really really thin, which, if you are, that's great for you, whatever. But it's like a fear of not being what we really thought we were supposed to be.

Philip Pape: 5:29

Yeah, it's funny you mentioned, like Kate Moss. I know, the SNL 50 thing is going on and there's like all these actors in there and you can kind of see some of the standards, the beauty standards, and I know, for guys like Brad Pitt, the Fight Club thing gets thrown out all the time and you know, to the credit, today, like you're seeing some of the bigger guys, like I don't know if you've seen Reacher on Amazon Prime, that guy, yep, it is definitely a double standards. It's not like you see women, big, strong women, coming out in these positions, in these roles, even today, Even in the superhero roles, they're like wait, I was like, I wouldn't even trust you to pick up a 15 pound dumbbell like no yeah yeah, yeah, that's right.

Philip Pape: 6:06

There was a movie called the gorge with like a sniper.

Lisa: 6:09

I just watched that yeah wasn't it good?

Niki Sims: 6:11

wasn't it good?

Philip Pape: 6:12

um what's her name? Joy, joy's in her name, yeah and something like yeah and with the big eyes and um, and she's doing all this athletic stuff and you know, some of it actually makes sense if you're thinking of the calisthenics part of it and like the acrobatic part of it. But then she's also supposed to be this like superhero, you know, strong and everything. She's kind of small, you know.

Niki Sims: 6:30

Yeah, and you know, some people are genetically certain ways Sure and when their bodies are left to their own devices, meaning they're not trying to change them, they might end up being easy gainers or it might be really hard to gain weight. And you know we're left thinking about these things, like when you start to get into the industry, like you, of changing bodies. You cannot help but think about that stuff. When you're watching someone whose physicality is part of their role is like I know what you have to live like to look like that and you can't do it for long.

Philip Pape: 7:04

Yes, and then when it bleeds into clients, then you're like now, wait a minute, let's take a step back and focus on what we really are going for here. Maybe that's a good segue, nikki, into talking about strength and talking about, like, the things we can really go after from a performance perspective, even if physique is a little piece of that. You know, I guess. What does strength mean to you, and as a woman and more generally, as a human, you know, and maybe we can go off of that tangent.

Niki Sims: 7:32

Yeah, and even just this pivot is important because it's going from this kind of outside like image of what you think you should be and how you should be seen to something that's yours and like being in your body and making choices about your working out and your training.

Niki Sims: 7:52

It's about how you interact with the world. It's about how you eat, it's about how you feel, it's about how you sleep, it's how your whole 24 hours actually feels like, how you're able to experience it, how you're able to take ownership over it, versus someone looking at you from the outside and you thinking that you should look a certain way to them. So now we're really pivoting it to something that we cannot control, to something that we have a lot of control over and we can actually get a lot of joy and rewarding feelings out of. I think that's such the way you pivoted, I think is really just a great example of why it's really important to actually start thinking about okay, well, how, how does it feel to be on the same team as my body? Yeah, and how does it feel to see what it it performs like and looks like when I'm in a good relationship with it?

Philip Pape: 8:40

Yeah, yeah, it was in my notes here. It says when, when Nikki says this, you want to pivot to the strength topic? I'm just kidding. I like how you said it is the locus of control. I don't think you used the word locus, but I know that's what you mean.

Philip Pape: 8:58

I don't think I've used that word, but I'm going to them are mine and you said taking ownership of your 24 hours or, to paraphrase, which is amazing, because I do see a mindset shift with people who are struggling and feel like they don't have control and don't have confidence and they're not sure why what they're doing doesn't translate to some result, and that's a lack of control, right, and they might even do things that are extreme, like dieting that, and then it doesn't work. And so this idea that, wow, you could become a beast, right, and then you can conquer your burden, to take your podcast title and kind of mold your physical relationship as a physical relationship with yourself, in terms of relationship with strength. So I mean, maybe dive into that a little more because I want to know. You've talked about going from skinny to strong. Why is it important, I guess? Why should people care?

Niki Sims: 9:49

about that being strong at all. Being strong is a different way of being in the world. You are able to do so many more things than you ever knew you could, and you start to really understand what your body is for. I think a lot of people can just get completely tied up and being in their head and they have no relationship with what it's like to exert their bodies. You know there are so many people who are just so completely sedentary, you know, living on the internet, doing whatever, but have no appreciation for what it feels like to contract your muscles really, really hard and to earn fatigue and to realize that you can do a single chin-up, which maybe you thought was just something completely impossible, or to squat your own body weight. There's this whole world of feeling that, before you really get into it, you don't know exists, and when you do learn about that, and once you get into it and feel what it's like, it's so hard to go back.

Niki Sims: 11:04

Once you know what strong feels, like you just can't, you can't not be it. It's like too devastating I totally jive with that.

Philip Pape: 11:10

100 because yeah, it's like a different version of yourself emerges from this cocoon.

Philip Pape: 11:15

You've been like sedentary in it's like the matrix what you're saying. It's like you're taking the red pill or whatever the pill is that shows you what it could be. Yeah, and you're a human right Like so. I just interviewed Brad Kearns. I think his episode comes out before this one. He co-wrote a book with Mark Sisson on the value of walking right Born to walk. It's walking versus running, and the whole premise is just our relationship with the world. When you talk about, you know walking barefoot, or you know sprinting or lifting heavy things or playing. Those are human things. What are many people doing? It's the opposite of those.

Niki Sims: 11:48

Yeah, Right, yeah, and they, like both our bodies and our brain, can be really victims to hormones, or they can create hormones that we really want, and so, interestingly, those chemical reactions can make us feel out of control. But when you get organized in your training and you get organized in your eating, your ability to understand what's going on increases and you can experience less stress by feeling like a victim to those hormones and even just your own thoughts. And so when you become more physical and when you interact with the world through your body, I think you can be a lot more accepting of yourself.

Philip Pape: 12:39

Yeah, it creates acceptance and also maybe resilience from that. Yeah, you just said something very powerful. You said get organized with training and eating, which hits a nerve for me because I talk about physique engineering and using data and tracking, and I know you guys do as well. And just today, I think, or yesterday, somebody who had like dabbled in one of my group programs. She's like I think this is going to be too overwhelming because I have three kids and you're asking me to track things right. And immediately I thought, okay, I've seen this story before, right, because you've got to meet people where they're at. But also, I think people don't necessarily realize how valuable it is to get organized, in that it reduces the stress eventually if you kind of get over that hump.

Philip Pape: 13:19

Tell us more about that. When you say get organized with training and get organized with eating, what does that mean?

Niki Sims: 13:25

It means appreciating that your actions today may not be felt until two, three, four or five weeks later and your ability to appreciate or to feeling a payoff is not instant anymore and it can be wildly rewarding is not instant anymore. And it can be wildly rewarding, but what it feels like in the moment is you do a workout and, instead of the goal being complete exhaustion and no longer able to do any more reps, and you're just totally done. Or you look at your fitness tracker and you see, oh good, I've burnt 600 calories. That's great. That's not the reward anymore.

Niki Sims: 14:07

The reward is a cumulative effect where you're managing your stress and you're managing your recovery and change happens over a longer amount of time, but it's very much a lasting change. It takes a lot of work to build muscle. You can start to see the effects pretty soon if you're new to training. But when you look at people who are really jacked, they've been doing it for a long time and you can really appreciate how much work went into that body composition changes. It's so hard. It's so hard to make those decisions every day and to kind of learn how to be at peace with the discomfort of saying no to things that you really want to say yes to, but the end, actually there's not even an end anymore, it becomes infinite. And that's another mindset change is. You know, when you're organized with your training, it's just this repetitive cycle of learning, trying something and learning, trying something and learning instead of the mindset of well, as soon as I do this, I'll be happy, huge shift.

Philip Pape: 15:17

There's no end point. We're so on the same page.

Lisa: 15:20

man, I have there's a buddy of mine he's another lifter.

Philip Pape: 15:23

We he and I are like Socrates philosophers the way we get into the same kind of stuff. And we're like man. We just love the process. You really fall in love with that process, even though it's always hard, like I think that's an important message.

Philip Pape: 15:36

It's never easy, but, like, the things that come out of it make your ability to interact with the world way easier. I would argue right and I think you're arguing that to some extent in that the things that become hard with age and frailty are not going to be the hard things you have to deal with as much because you're dealing with the. You have the voluntary hardship today. Right, it's the term you guys use. You also said you become at peace with discomfort, which is again amazing because it's the concept of ever changing, always changing and growing, and not just sitting back. So what are your thoughts on? Like dopamine hits and endorphins from exercise, which get a lot of play out there, that is an instant gratification, is it not?

Niki Sims: 16:15

Oh yeah, and I love that. I love that.

Philip Pape: 16:18

I am here, for it.

Niki Sims: 16:21

And I think it's important to have stuff like that in there, but it does change over time. You know, a dopamine hit for me now, like I do spin classes. I live across the street when I'm in California from a great spin studio, and that has sometimes a probably positive effect on my conditioning, but sometimes I can go too hard with it and it actually steals from my recovery. I accept this, but in that space it is a huge mental break for me, and it is such a win that I come out of there less stressed, and so that's a huge win. So that's important, but I also know that is not contributing to my muscle building. It's not how I lose weight. I don't care how many calories I burn, it is just for fun.

Niki Sims: 17:14

And other dopamine comes from, or dopamine hits can come from. You know, marking your workout complete, that counts Same as, or not even as big, but hitting a PR boom, that's a huge one. The interesting part of that, though, is you hit a lot of PRs in the beginning, and you get addicted to that, but it's not going to happen very much, as you know, as you keep lifting, so it's not a huge like ah, this is the best, I'm only going to get better and better. You're going to squat 225 a million times in your life where it used to be one arm.

Philip Pape: 17:47

Your new PR is my shoulder didn't hurt after those presses. Yes.

Niki Sims: 17:52

Yeah. So you have to know like and you've experienced this, like you have you know, 20% of your workout days are full of those kinds of dopamine hits Like everything's awesome, you hit some PRs, or it's just a really good day, and then some days are the complete opposite Nothing feels good. You have an old tweak that's acting up, the music is crappy and even though it's your own music but today it just sounds so dumb and you cannot get into your workout and you just want to throw a tantrum. But you could do the exact same work and have two different experiences, and your body still needs it.

Philip Pape: 18:28

I feel you all the way you just look for those wins, whatever it is. I was joking with some buddies where I had 395 on the bar and they're like, why don't you just go to 400? I'm like, well, the math works out that way because I'm progressing. Last year last week at 385. I'm doing 4055 next week and I actually responded something nerdy, like it's, I'm holding my mental reserve until I go to four plates next week or something.

Philip Pape: 18:50

You know what I mean and they're like you know, you gave me, gave me shit for it, but um, uh, yeah. And if you guys look at, if you look at nikki's game face after she does her deadlift on instagram, you can see this like satisfaction right after that rep. That's just a subtle difference. It's like yeah, some people are like I will clap myself.

Niki Sims: 19:09

I'll be like yeah, it's good stuff, it's such a good feeling.

Philip Pape: 19:15

So before we I do want to get into the whole building muscle science and everything, but before we do that, is there another extreme where you can be too strong or too muscular. I just want to get that out of the way, sure.

Niki Sims: 19:26

Well, I talk about this with nutrition a lot.

Niki Sims: 19:30

I don't love saying that a certain food is healthy or not, because I think it comes down to the quantity of any food.

Niki Sims: 19:39

Like cashews, you might hear that they're healthy, but if your diet only consists of cashews, not so healthy, especially if you're trying to not gain body fat. So, similar to training, there can be a point at which the pursuit of muscle actually starts to deteriorate your health, which could be, you know, if you start using supplements, that you know, if you start using a lot of steroids like that can have a very ill effect on your heart. So it's whenever you start doing things that are at all costs. How is it influencing your internal organs? How is it influencing your connective tissue? Are you able to enjoy your life outside of the gym or are you just saying no to everything because you're too exhausted, or you believe that the only way you can obtain joy is by being the most muscular person in the world, or for yourself? So if you start making trade-offs for your health, your heart, your joints and in your life outside the gym, then I think that that can become too much. It's probably not what you actually want.

Philip Pape: 20:44

Yeah, I'm glad you put that in the context of you've got a system. Is your life Like you've got more things? It's not that they have to be in quote unquote balance. I don't like that term necessarily, because things get more important sometimes and then less others. Sure, in my opinion. But you're right, I was thinking about how some guys push the deadlift so hard that they might have some low back fatigue right, or they're doing a bunch of RDLs or whatever, and now their wife asked them to help out with something they're like sorry, I'm too sore for my lifting and that thought goes through my head.

Philip Pape: 21:13

And my wife's. Like the cinder block is frozen to the ground because it's like nine degrees here. Can you pick it up Now? In that case, I couldn't get it, but there's something called leverage. So if you're an engineer.

Philip Pape: 21:22

You know you can use a pole. Anyway, that's a good one, all right. So let's get into the building muscle. So where do we want to start? Let's start with you, because some of my followers I said Nikki's coming on, they were like gaga about it and they wanted to hear your, some of your story. I don't want to do the whole thing here, but the strong, the skinny to strong, right and like, and then specifically like, we want to hear about bulking phases you've gone through and then maybe we could parallel that with some of the generalities and science behind it.

Philip Pape: 21:54

So, yeah, go for it.

Niki Sims: 21:56

Short story was I was a gym rat in high school. I tried to play sports. I was terrible at it. The coaches were like what have I done? She's tall and useless, and so team sports were never for me.

Niki Sims: 22:09

But I loved being at the gym, which eventually led me to meeting CrossFit and I really enjoyed CrossFit. My boyfriend at the time and I were just doing it at the gym some sort of pull-ups and squats and whatever. And then a gym opened up and we started going to those classes and I really, really enjoyed it. I loved the community. It was the first time I really had fun working with the barbell. I don't remember a lot of it, but I remember doing really dumb things, like really ugly power cleans and this one I'm really embarrassed to admit, but I have used a band and added weight to myself to do chin-ups, thinking that I was doing weighted chin-ups Interesting, Very shameful. I wake up at nine and just like oh, I can't believe I did that, but you know that's what. And like no, CrossFit coach was like that's not really working, which is like such a.

Philip Pape: 23:01

So you were just making yourself heavier, but then still using a band. Yes, that's okay, interesting.

Niki Sims: 23:05

You know, I didn't know what I was doing, but I think pretty shortly after that I had $1,000 in a weekend. So I went and got a CrossFit cert and I started just coaching at that gym there and I was working in construction management at the time. That's what I got my degree in. But I wasn't happy there and I was happy at CrossFit. So I was like, all right, let's leave this job and start doing CrossFit full time. And then I did.

Niki Sims: 23:28

The other thing that always happens in CrossFit is you believe you can do it better than they're doing, so you open up your own gym. So back in I think it was 2009, we opened up a CrossFit gym back in New Mexico and so lots of barbell fun taught me how to build community, and it was four years later that I encountered starting strength, which totally that flipped another switch of oh my gosh, I just want to get strong, and now I can see that there's a program to do so and that sounds amazing. So the joy for CrossFit decreased and the interest in dedicated barbell strength training really increased, and so I pivoted from CrossFit to becoming a private or personal strength coach. I'll say it that way Moved to San Francisco, moved to Atlanta and that's when online coaching started back in 2016 and then eventually wound up here in SoCal working for Barbellogic Online Coaching. So through that journey it was like kind of being a gym rat getting more into the barbell, barbell via CrossFit and then just boom, full barbell.

Philip Pape: 24:39

I'm smiling because it sounds like me. I mean not to make it about me, but it's so funny because I was in CrossFit for eight years. Yeah, and it sounds like me. I mean not to make it about me, but it's so funny because I was in CrossFit for eight years and my coach, who owned the gym, he kind of evolved away from CrossFit himself. He was more into just straight up lifting and powerlifting and whatnot. And then I discovered starting strength in like 2020, during the pandemic.

Philip Pape: 24:57

You know it's funny how many people came that route and that's how I found out about you guys too, cause I know you kind of branched off from that and a few other guys, like barbell medicine, you know, met Jordan on the podcast too and stuff. So okay, so that's like the what and it's good. People understand like hey, crossfit, there's maybe a place for it, there's the barbell piece, there's the community. There's definitely a lot of things that are maybe detrimental, especially if you go too crazy with it and you can get injured and stuff. We all know this, we all know that.

Niki Sims: 25:29

Yeah, Well, they're like. I think there are three pathways. You find out you're really good at CrossFit and you become a CrossFit athlete. That's for you know not that many people. You get hurt and you leave, or you get into barbell training. Yes, yeah.

Philip Pape: 25:39

You don't get great results and then you go into barbell training. All of a sudden the world changes. So that's what people want to understand is like okay, what happened? Like so you're still doing that because obviously it's given you something. Did the change happen pretty quickly, Like your strength doubled in a few months doing the novice linear progression, and what did that look like?

Niki Sims: 25:58

It did, yeah, and I had been, you know, doing CrossFit for many years by the time I did the novice linear progression. But yeah, I got much stronger. I wish I could remember my numbers, but I remember being stuck at a 200-pound squat for a really long time, definitely got past that eventually. It took me ages to squat 300 pounds but I finally did it. But getting to two plates was really fun.

Philip Pape: 26:20

There's a lot of guys that can't do 300.

Niki Sims: 26:22

After that I was like, cool, I'm retiring the squatting, I get it. But yeah, I think I got my deadlift up to fives at 265 at some point, maybe more, I can't remember, but that was like pretty good in the CrossFit world. So you know, even with going to the gym that many times and being that invested in constantly varied functional fitness, yeah right.

Niki Sims: 26:45

Yeah, I wasn't as strong as I could be, and so I got stronger. Once I had a dedicated program Right, and then, even since then, I've gotten stronger, you know, as evidenced by weight on the bar in certain lifts. But I've only continued to put on muscle and while not all my numbers have gone up that entire time, I have put on more muscle.

Philip Pape: 27:09

That's an important distinction, yeah.

Niki Sims: 27:10

Yeah.

Philip Pape: 27:11

So let's link that to what you did to make that happen. Right, there's obviously the training and the lifting, and then nutrition is a huge part of this. Yeah, so over the last when did you start starting strength? What year was that?

Niki Sims: 27:23

13.

Philip Pape: 27:24

Okay, so it's been a little over 10 years, so it's been like 12 years. Yeah, like, what did the nutrition look like? And when did you do some periodization, like your first bulk, for example, or first cut or whatever? How does that look?

Niki Sims: 27:37

I think one of my my most notable bulks was it wasn't really an intentional bulk, but it was a really stressed out bulk I got divorced and I wanted to leave my gym and I moved to another state and then I didn't have anywhere to live. So it was like in a year I left my gym and I moved to San Francisco and I had to live in this Airbnb until I found a place to live and I was so stressed out I was just eating jelly beans, thinking that I need the carbs to lift and enjoying San Francisco, which is such a fun city. But I got up to my heaviest, which I think I was like 185 at my very heaviest. And that's when I was like, oh my gosh, I do not like this at all and I think my lifting was going well. But I was so uncomfortable in my body so I did a cut through macro tracking. I did. If it fits your macros, I'd eventually got down like 30 pounds to 155 and I competed in a meet at that time.

Niki Sims: 28:40

So since then my body weight goes as high as 170, 172. And that's as much as I'm comfortable. I don't feel comfortable above 170. And it's not a payoff in my training anymore. Okay, a bunch of weight, I'm going to get stronger. No, that's not going to happen to me anymore. In fact, it just makes me really uncomfortable. And really to add muscle, you don't have to be in a tremendous caloric surplus. You really don't. It's not 1000 calories a day, it's like 300 calories a day, depending on how much you weigh going into it. So that's another interesting thing to take away from this is like you can do GoMad. You can put on a bunch of weight, you will get stronger, but I don't think you need to go to that extreme.

Philip Pape: 29:29

Right, right. Yeah, GoMad's a whole separate thing. Yeah, I couldn't even do GoMad if I tried. It's just too much milk. But it's funny because you say it's only 300 calories and I know when I see typical bulks it's like between 150 and three, maybe 400 calories. You know, for the average person and for some men it might be higher. Right, but 300 calorie surplus might sound crazy to a lot of people listening or a lot of women listening. I want to address that topic of the fear not just of getting bulky, but specifically gaining weight on purpose, Because I did a podcast episode recently or right before the end of the year, called like the most underrated fat loss secret keeping you from getting strong, and it was basically like you need to gain weight, Like that was the spoiler alert. It's like you might be dieting too much. So I kind of want to address that, because you just mentioned it doesn't have to be getting fat, it just has to be strategic yeah.

Niki Sims: 30:20

Yeah, and it's so important to learn how to do that, because if you are in a mindset of thinking that you need to work harder and eat less, you actually really end up setting yourself back, sometimes quite significantly, because more likely to get hurt and you can't progress in your training. And if you can get into a little bit of a caloric surplus, as much as you're wanting to do and comfortable doing, you end up learning what it feels like to feel really freaking good in the gym and it is fun. It's really fun. And that whole lesson of recovery and how it's fueled by your nutrition is a big one, because under eating and overtraining is it can be really devastating.

Niki Sims: 31:10

I went through a period of doing that and that's where I was my most injured and that has set me back in a few ways for a really long time and the mindset and I think this is really important for women. You don't have to max out your energy expenditure when you're training and I think this is really important for women. You don't have to max out your energy expenditure when you're training and it's like working out is not the reward for or it's not the punishment for eating. The goal is to feel energized when you're training. And to train four times a week? If you don't have to do it seven days a week, you don't have to feel starving. What if you felt really powerful and good while you're working out and you could end a session excited for the next one because you know you can do more? Such a different way to be.

Philip Pape: 31:59

It is. And again, going back to one of your recent posts on IG where you did like doubles I think it was for 300, whatever. It was like sub max doubles on your deadlift and you said this is recoverable. Like you're, like, I'm done and this is. It was a good turn. Like at first, I'm like do you mean, did you get injured or something? What do you mean? And I'm like, oh, she's talking about the fact that she's managing her stress and recovery.

Niki Sims: 32:18

to come back a few days later, a week later, and do more.

Philip Pape: 32:21

Yeah, you're right, because it's not. You know, you're not burning calories, you're not trying to get your heart rate up, you are training. You're training, yes, and you're powerful.

Niki Sims: 32:28

Yeah, there's more, there's more. There's going to be more time. It never ends.

Philip Pape: 32:31

It never ends, but that's a good thing, so okay. So this like not wanting to push too hard, like you talked about your comfort level, at whatever that was 180, or you said 172. 170 something, yeah, and I imagine a lot of women don't quite know where that is yet. Or even, what would you say to someone who the only time they've ever gained weight in the past was accidentally and it was fat because they weren't training?

Niki Sims: 32:57

Yeah, why is this so different? This is different because your calories are going to be coming from food that's really useful to what you're doing, meaning you know how much protein you're getting and you're also filling in the calories with fruits and vegetables and fiber. Nutrient-dense food.

Philip Pape: 33:15

It's not pop tarts, it's not a bloat.

Niki Sims: 33:17

It's not sugar, it's not booze, yeah, and there's a place for stuff like that, absolutely, and I think it's really important to have, you know, those delicious things in there. But it's coming from a place that's driving your body growing in a good way, building muscle, and it's also at an amount that you are in control of. It's not an uncontrollable amount, it's not an uncontrollable rate, and so it's not a runaway train of Girl's cat cookies. It's a strategic amount of increase and so you're still in the driver's seat and you know that you get to have fun with that weight when you're strategically gaining weight and in terms of like how you look because you are, what I have found for myself is I will only compare myself to when I was very lean and I forget about all the other days that existed when I wasn't that, and I will decide that I was at my happiest at this moment in time and I imagine that I was like that all the time and that's not the case and you'll and especially with women you go through like so many changes throughout the month. You basically get four of you for the price of one where you're like really happy and lean, and then you're really fluffy and tired and we can sometimes only remember or believe that that current reality is the forever reality and forget all of the cycles that actually exist.

Niki Sims: 34:49

But the discomfort that can come from gaining weight, I think can be solved by knowing that it's not forever and something as simple as wearing the right clothes. It's such a hack that I find is really worth it. You might have clothes that work really really well when you're at the skinniest part of your cycle and you might have clothes that make you look freaking amazing when you're in the thicker part of your cycle and play to the strengths of your body. I think it's totally fine to do that, because if you're trying to gain weight, you are going to gain circumference in places. Get the clothes that look good on you, yeah, and if you don't, it's honestly just like torturing yourself.

Philip Pape: 35:32

Yeah, and resolve to the fact that you're going to need different sizes, and probably forever, if you're going to periodize like we do, I know I have two or three different sizes of different clothes and I'm like all right, these shirts no longer fit right now. I'm going to switch to these loose ones over here.

Niki Sims: 35:45

And you'll look better when you put them on. And then you're like, oh okay, this is okay and it's just the number on the brand. I wear so many different brands and the sizes aren't consistent and we can get into a whole destructive thought process around that. But you're building your body. Show off what you're building. It's not easy, but do yourself a favor and celebrate it, because it looks really good. When you start getting thicker legs and a thicker butt and your back gets muscular, get a new sports bra that shows it off. Don't get the one that's just like a little pinchy for size two girls, not worth it.

Philip Pape: 36:20

I agree and as a man and I am married and I love my wife, she's attractive and this is not a but um, I can tell a woman who lifts and is strong and even if she's totally dressed up, um, you know, you, you even see it in the face, but in a good way, like there's this muscularity, there's a strength there. That's really good. And I like the way you reframe all that, because some of us gain fat in different areas and I hear that comment as well Like, well, you know, I gain it all in my stomach or I gain it all in my butt. I'm a guy, I gain it in my butt. It's weird. And you know you gain it in certain areas, yeah Right. And so you're like, but embrace that, because maybe that helps your leverages or squat or whatever. You know, you never know.

Niki Sims: 36:58

Yeah, it's discomforting in the times when you're looking at yourself in the mirror in a certain light, in a certain outfit, but it's really good when you are deadlifting, when you are squatting, when you are benching, when you are actively trying to build. You cannot build if you don't have enough, and so once you do it and you put in the work and you see your new shape, it's really really fun because you know it took a lot of work.

Philip Pape: 37:25

A hundred percent. A hundred percent, yeah, and it happens fairly fast. If you're a beginner, it happens fast. And why wait? Like I always say, why wait? You know somebody, she's you know somebody reaches out and they're 60 years old. I've never built muscle, like, don't wait, don't wait till you're 70. Do it now? Yeah, I also have there's a male client I have who's never built muscle in his life, older client, and he's like three weeks in and already expressing some of these fears himself, like it happens to men too. He's like I'm feeling frumpy, I'm feeling puffy, like, and some of these symptoms are just, are more of a fluid retention issue initially.

Niki Sims: 37:58

Very helpful to know that and maybe we can talk about that. Does your body adapt to that? Is that something you have to get used to? Like it's great? Take that as well and also just know that when you don't want to see that bloat, you can make it go away very quickly, like when, for example, when bodybuilders get ready to do a show to. From what I understand, they don't do legs for like a week or something and you would think they'd be doing a bunch of legs, but like a big, heavy leg day, it makes you retain more fluid and you'll even see that in your waist measurement.

Philip Pape: 38:46

And the scale.

Niki Sims: 38:47

Yeah, and the scale yeah.

Philip Pape: 38:49

Yeah, yeah, cause they'll, they will drink a ton of water, uh, to get their body to start releasing water as an adaptation, and then they'll stop drinking water and then they'll release more water and get dehydrated.

Niki Sims: 38:59

Yes, to go along with.

Philip Pape: 39:00

What you're saying is avoiding the inflammation from the bigger. That's pretty cool stuff to understand when bodybuilders manipulate it. Yeah.

Niki Sims: 39:07

Yeah. So even when I do like my measurements and I'm just like, okay, well, these are the measurements. After like a mega leg day, they're going to be a little bit bigger.

Philip Pape: 39:15

Yeah.

Niki Sims: 39:15

Okay.

Philip Pape: 39:16

Yeah, that's good to know too. If you have like a shifted training schedule and then you're taking measurements the same day every week, that might throw off the numbers schedule and then you're taking measurements the same day every week, that might throw off the numbers. That's good to know. Yeah, you said so. A couple other things I wanted to address. One is the duration of a bulk, what you like, because I've heard different recommendations from different experts. I have my own thoughts. Like I think you should bulk for plenty, like six, nine, 12 months. If you can help it just to kind of get into that super anabolic mindset, just keep going, but you also don't want to gain too much.

Niki Sims: 39:50

So what are your thoughts on length of a bulk that would have to do. I mean a big kind of buffer I would put. There would be your waist measurement. The classic waist measurement that is correlated with more health risk is a 40 inch waist for men, Like if you, if your waist starts getting over 40 and you're not like a huge guy who's also super muscular, that is a measurement where, when you're around that range, like okay, this might be the time to pull it back a little bit and get under 40 safely for a while.

Niki Sims: 40:20

I think that's an important thing to keep in mind. And then thinking of what you want because if you're bulking for a year, I think that's an important thing to keep in mind and then thinking of what you want, because if you're bulking for a year, you have to think, well, what do I want the next year? Am I okay with this? Do I just want to do a little cut and be like five pounds lighter? Am I actually really happy? Are you doing this for you? Are you doing this because someone said that it's important that you can lift a certain mountain and the only way you can do that is by gaining 40 pounds? You know, I think it's always just a question of is this what you want now, six months from now, and maybe like a year from now?

Niki Sims: 40:58

I've been thinking just in the timescale for women, like when we get into this age range of early 40s, when our body is just going to be like hey, did you enjoy yourself, Did you have fun? Well, too bad, it's over now. I'm just going to really mess with you for the next five years. It becomes so much harder to lose body fat. I feel like um kind of ticking time clock now where it's like I don't want to go into the throes of menopause with extra body fat because it's only going to get harder to lose it and I don't want to have to fight that battle as much as I might have to if I go in with a lot of body fat. So I'm trying to like prepare for that part of my life by being muscular and, you know, comfortably lean, because I don't want to have to be, you know, without any estrogen and exhausted and mad at the world and fat.

Philip Pape: 41:54

Yeah, and you're hitting on like. What we know is the main cause of like a dropping metabolism and menopause is the hormonal changes causing muscle loss, which then you gain fat, cause you're not eating any less and then it just spirals, yeah, so so wait, going back to the bulk, if you tie this to, no, no, it's okay, no, it's all related, right, it's good to know If we tie this to. I'm only 40 years old, nikki, just you're young, you're so young.

Philip Pape: 42:18

You got years. I'm 44 and I'm younger than I've ever been. That's the way to reframe it, right, yeah? So if we go way back to a comment you made about like a 300 calorie surplus, I don't know about you, I like to use 2,500 calories per pound for building.

Philip Pape: 42:31

Oh, okay, because of like the density between fat and muscle, and if you assume 50-50 fat, muscle, blah, blah, blah, all the nerdy stuff, it comes out to like 3.6 pounds a month. So that would be, then, like 40 pounds for a year If you just built, built, built, built, built, built, built. You know. Now, granted, if you were going to build for a year, you might not want to go that aggressively, you know, to make all the trade-offs. So that's kind of like what I was asking. I like that. You came from the perspective of well, you don't want to be too big for metabolic health reasons. You also don't want to be uncomfortably large where now you're just like a far cry away from your lean goal. So is there a minimum though that you're like you got to at least build for a certain amount of time in a surplus.

Niki Sims: 43:14

What kind of experience level are we talking about that?

Philip Pape: 43:18

is a good question. I guess we're talking to people who've never bulked before, so we can go with early intermediate kind of deal. They've been training for a bit and like on the thinner side, that's another good question. Yeah, let's say yeah, let's say for. So for a male, what are we talking about? Let's say, 20% body fat, where you actually do have a little bit of fluff right and you haven't gotten all the way to as lean as you want to get. But maybe you had a fat loss phase to get you there. At least that's a common situation, I see, where people have a lot of fat to lose. They lose some of it, they're not quite there and then they want to build.

Niki Sims: 43:50

Yeah, I would, man for someone like that, they probably. First we need to figure out what they're actually eating and get to like a stabilized caloric intake and it's very likely that, you know, I'll probably start with four to 500 calories a day extra because their training is going to go from nothing to something big. You know, and see how they respond to that. I like to give nutrition changes three weeks of consistency before I make a change and if I find that they're feeling energized, they're recovering, and if I do see a half a pound to a pound a week of increase, then we're in a good spot right there.

Philip Pape: 44:34

Cool, yeah, I like that. You said start a bit aggressively because again people are afraid they're going to just blow up and gain a bunch of weight. But are you doing that because you know there's this hump to get over and also perhaps that your metabolism is going to start ramping up, cause you said, the training becomes like you have more volume in you, more intensity, the weight's going up faster all that.

Niki Sims: 44:49

Yeah, Like you go from squatting 95 pounds a week and then you know, not that, long after you're at, like you almost double that and the there's a delayed onset of nutrition effect where you know it goes both ways, unfortunately. Like you can be in a deficit and not really know it, and then you feel it two weeks later when you're just like, oh my God, I feel terrible when I'm training, Like I'm just so under recoverance because, well, you might've been in a deficit for a while and now you're realizing it because your training output is really high.

Philip Pape: 45:19

It's the hunger during a build that people talk about.

Niki Sims: 45:27

Yeah, how am I hungry? I'm like because you actually need the food. It hasn't happened yet, yeah. And so, yeah, when you're about to really increase the amount of tonnage someone is working with, from zero to thousands and thousands, you need to prepare them and you need to prepare the habits, because it takes a while to figure out how to get 150 to 200 grams of protein a day. You're really changing how you're living by where you go to the grocery store, what you buy at the grocery store, learning how to prepare chicken in a way where it's not gross. So there are a lot of habits that have to be established, and so it's okay to get that moving along pretty quickly. Yeah, for sure, takes a while, totally agree.

Philip Pape: 46:02

And the good thing about a bulk I would say is or maybe tell me if you agree or not but like it's asymmetrical, like fat loss versus bulking, it's not. It's not really two sides of the same coin. Like bulking, you have all this energy coming in right. Fat loss, you're really stealing lots of resources from your body.

Niki Sims: 46:30

So it's not like they're just the opposite. Does that make sense? Do you know what I'm saying? Totally agree. Yeah, very, very different way of experiencing the changes and making choices. You know, when you're when you only have so many calories and you're in a deficit, you're like, well, should I have this piece of bacon or should I have this type of meat? And it's like when you're in a surplus, you're like mom, both. It's great, life is good.

Philip Pape: 46:46

It's true. Where's the next one? I don't have enough.

Niki Sims: 46:51

And you have to like really partition your energy and be like well, I need to make sure I have this amount by this time or else I'm going to become a hangry monster at 4 pm. So let me make sure I do this. And, like you have to math out your day so much differently because just you're hungry and all you, sometimes all you can think about is your next meal. It's really hard.

Philip Pape: 47:09

Which is another reason you want to bulk a lot if you can like, if you can spend a lot of the year not dieting. I should say not necessarily you know, yeah, which gives you.

Philip Pape: 47:17

then you know, what are your thoughts on having more muscle and having a higher metabolism? And I ask it because I feel like there's some myths or people overestimate the contribution of muscle mass to calorie burn. But I do think the fact that you can carry more weight and you have more muscle and you can train more with more load and tonnage, that's what burns more calories. But like what do you think?

Niki Sims: 47:40

I totally agree, and as far as I understand, there are some people that have to get down to really low amounts of calorie to lose weight and that's pretty challenging, even when they are muscled. There's definitely a genetic range in there, true, but if you do have that, I call it like an. It's a. It's an expensive tissue to maintain, which is what I want. Like, I want that muscle tissue because it needs a lot to be happy. That is beneficial because, like you said, you can burn more calories while you're working out, even though it's not exactly what matters as much, it's just that you can burn more calories between your training sessions and you get to eat more to support that, which is really way more fun, like some of my friends, when they're trying to lose weight, like they're down and like 1500 calories and I'm just like, wow, I'm at like 2100 in a deficit.

Philip Pape: 48:31

Like and that's all carb difference. Right there, too, you're like differencing keto and like 150 grams of carbs or something. Oh man, yeah. And speaking of that you did mention earlier uh, we joked about the pop tarts, but it is. We are on the same page. I think people need to understand that you need to be eating a lot of whole foods and nutritious foods that support your performance, but there's plenty of room for other indulgences in there, and you should have a flexible diet. So I don't think we have there's no argument there. So I guess, when we talk about women being bulky and the physique side of it and the muscle you mentioned earlier, you can get stronger to a point. At some point the muscle keeps going. What is that like? Where does that come from? And then what's happening? And then what does that kind of look like for a woman?

Niki Sims: 49:14

The way I learned this was by getting really hurt, okay, and that happened because I was training really really hard. I was doing jujitsu three to five times a week and I was lifting really heavy four times a week. I was very, very lean, so I was not recovering, and it was during that time when I hurt my back. I don't have a diagnosis, I don't know what happened, but I can say my ability to lift kept decreasing, which meant my ability to perform a squat and a deadlift to the full range of motion I was unable to do without pain, and the amount of weight I could do in any range of motion decreased to the point where it was zero across every way. And that's a huge identity crisis, because this is what I do for a living.

Lisa: 50:06

It's what I've been doing for almost 20 years.

Niki Sims: 50:09

What am I going to do with my life now? I'm also a coach. I got to figure this out and I just knew okay, if I can't do those lifts that I have built my house upon, I still need to build muscle. What am I going to do to build the muscle? So it went from this shift of just being dogmatic and thinking like I must do these lifts and I must see the weight on the bar go up to thinking like, well, this is what I can do. How do I do the right amount? What is challenging like and what does progress look like?

Niki Sims: 50:44

And so that shifted to going to the gym using machines that I could do, learning what machines I couldn't do, doing unilateral work at the gym and do a lot of machines that kind of make you tired but it's not really useful.

Niki Sims: 51:06

And so it went from figuring out how big of a movement can I do, just like we do on a squat You're using your hips and your knees and your back. How close can I get to simulating that kind of training movement? And then I would just kind of dial it back to being more isolated, based on how I was feeling during that time, and eventually I was able to get back to squatting, even though my back still doesn't really like it. But I was able to get back to deadlifting gradually over time. But I was able to still challenge, whether it be one muscle group at a time or several muscle groups at a time, in a way that was hard but doable and recoverable. And so amazing. You can still build muscle and you don't have to squat, even though I still advocate for the squat, just for the record.

Philip Pape: 51:56

Yes, yes, and it is not mutually exclusive. And what you're saying hits really hard with a lot of people as they get older and go through training either training injuries or just injuries from real life. Usually that's where you get injured. It's just life. And myself included, I had a back surgery, an appendectomy a month later and then rotator cuff surgery last year and through each of those it's kind of like oh no, I can't do certain things, but what can you do? Like what can you do? And there's even this like cross-education effect where you can use one side of your body and it will translate to maintaining muscle on the other. So no excuses, people, right? Nikki's telling you that like, you can learn from that. Those experiences, yeah.

Niki Sims: 52:34

Go, you know, get out of your comfort zone. Go to the gym. You know, I know a lot of listeners probably make fun of people in the gym doing God knows what, but when you are in this position of not being able to do the things that worked in the past, like it's time to start having an open mind and get down to the principles of hard but doable and recoverable. Yeah, and you can make that work in a lot of different domains.

Philip Pape: 52:57

ABT always be training I just made that up?

Niki Sims: 52:59

Yes, always be training.

Philip Pape: 53:00

It's funny because the people I follow now you know I also came through starting strength and you know they get accused of being a little dogmatic, but they're for a certain population, you know, they're for the novice who can do all these things. But, like Andy Baker you mentioned, he was just on the show talking about all the ways you can squat if you don't want to or can't do low bar, or if it's not right for you, right Like if you're trying to hit your quads and build those suckers. That's not going to be the quote unquote optimal to do that. Lauren Colenso-Simple, she was on the show, she's in mass. She talks about machines being just as effective if you're, like you said, using the movement pattern. So people you can train no matter what. And so, with that in mind, what would you say are the non-negotiables, besides finding a way and doing it consistently? What are the non-negotiables when it comes to building muscle for women that they have to have in their pillars, their foundation?

Niki Sims: 53:51

I think you got to squat Cool Because you move your hips, you move your knees, you learn how to engage all of your abdominal muscles, all of your back muscles, and you just get such a big bang for your buck. It is such a crucial part of a training program and if you can't squat, I recommend a leg press although there are a lot of different leg presses in there that vary from great to crappy or a belt squat, but a big leg movement also deadlift. Pretty much everybody can deadlift. I don't know if I've met anybody who couldn't deadlift, but that is a really important one because you are very likely going to lift the most amount of weight that you possibly can in a deadlift. Depending on how you're built, it's going to be the deadlift or the squat, but you can impart such a huge training effect on your body. It's so much more impactful to do like a couple sets of five deadlift than do like an hour long orange theory class.

Philip Pape: 54:58

I'm so glad you said that I was doing rack pulls the other day. I'm like I know what you mean. You just feel it everywhere. You gotta take a nap right after.

Niki Sims: 55:06

Like it's big but you gotta spend some time buying into that, like it takes a while to to build everything stronger together. Usually what happens and that's when we see like the back start to round and the deadlift is usually the form breakdown. There are a lot of little muscles going on in the back. It's a huge system of joints and insertions and origins and at a a certain point, parts of your body are going to become stronger than others and so it's kind of going to feel like two steps forward, one step back for a while. But over time and over time you learn how to be strong as your whole self. And that's what I love about the deadlift, and I think this is what some people experience with a squat. I think I've maybe done like four squats in my life where I'm like, yeah, that felt good.

Philip Pape: 55:53

But like I'm so with you there, no wonder I like you so much, like I love the deadlift.

Niki Sims: 55:58

It's 100 pounds more than my squat, so yeah, but you feel like you can use your every cell and be completely present with what you're doing. I have never felt what I have felt in a max deadlift in anything else in my life. It is the pure experience of being alive and doing something huge and it's so fun. And you got to learn how to do that because, like I said, I just don't think there's anything like it.

Philip Pape: 56:28

My God, I trained this morning and I want to go out and do a deadlift already. I know, right Today, I need to recover. It's so good it is. It is so good Seriously. Have you found people with back pain feel better after they start deadlifting?

Niki Sims: 56:40

Oh yes.

Philip Pape: 56:40

Yes, so people are aware.

Niki Sims: 57:06

That's a, and women who I train, who are pregnant, they're like I just want to squat. It feels so good, I just want to squat. And I'm like, okay, well, we might, we can also maybe take out your deadlift. And they're like no, my lower back is just like you know, they have relaxin, so their hips are like separating, and learning how to brace actually feels really good. So the deadlift feels really good for them too. So those two movements, I think they've got to be in your game at varying degrees over time, but those are so big, and then you got to do some upper body stuff too. I think rows are really, really important Bench pressing, overhead pressing, multi-joint movements where you can eventually move a lot of weight and eventually move a lot of weight.

Lisa: 57:28

Hi, my name is Lisa and I'd like to give a big shout out to my nutrition coach, philip Pate. With his coaching, I have lost 17 pounds. He helped me identify the reason that I wanted to lose weight, and it's very simple longevity. I want to be healthy, active and independent until the day I die. He introduced me to this wonderful app called Macro Factor. I got that part of my nutrition figured out. Along with that is the movement part of nutrition. There's a plan to it and he really helped me with that. The other thing he helped me with was knowing that I need to get a lot of steps in. So the more steps you have, the higher your expenditure is and the easier it is to lose weight. When it's presented to you like he presents it, it makes even more sense. And the other thing that he had was a hunker guide and that really helped me. So thank you, willow.

Philip Pape: 58:11

This is kind of an off the wall question because when I think of rows I also think, you know, people do a lot of mid-back type rows, like the barbell row, or they'll do more cheater style rows, like upright angles, but I don't think a lot of people put as much credence into rotator cuff health and, like you know, scapular retraction type, like higher level rows. What are your thoughts on that and like, maybe your favorite types of rotator cuff specific work?

Niki Sims: 58:35

Man, that's a great question. I can't say I've gotten too nerdy in that, usually like like shoulder vegetables, like or like you got to eat your broccoli, so like um, light banded work, or like face pulls stuff like that sure I don't know if these count, but straight arm, lat pull downs.

Philip Pape: 58:51

Those just feel really good oh yeah, okay, I get it yeah, it's straight almost like a pullover, but standing yeah yeah, those just feel amazing.

Niki Sims: 59:00

Nice dumbbell rows you can have a lot more variety on. You know, if you're how much weight you're doing, you can change how you're raising the weight, if you're pulling it back towards your hip. Or if you're how much weight you're doing, you can change how you're raising the weight If you're pulling it back towards your hip or if you're changing the angle with your rowing and with that type of accessory work. I found times when it's useful to you know, go for the heaviness place in your program to be used with a, an eccentric or a pause, because then you really actually start to feel what it's like to use your rotator cuff and to stabilize your shoulder and like, oh yeah, that feels really, really good, which helps your bench press and you know all the big things.

Philip Pape: 59:39

Yeah, yeah, because that's I mean, at least I see it like shoulder health is probably yeah, other than low. Back by the most common complaint for people All right, yeah, yeah, yeah, I can't come. Yeah, exactly yeah, and a lot of lifters and coaches have their own personal experience with that too. Okay, so the last piece here I think wanted to cover you mentioned it a couple of times was the longevity piece, and also you talked about living in the world functionally being useful. How does the physical strength relate to the mental resilience in that longevity? So by longevity I didn't just mean health span, although that is important, but more of the training longevity and the mental longevity and the stress resilience and all of that stuff that you kind of alluded to earlier. Am I making sense?

Niki Sims: 1:00:25

Can you phrase it one more different way?

Philip Pape: 1:00:27

Let's talk about mental health and the impact. Let's do it that way, just say mental health, yeah, that sounds great.

Niki Sims: 1:00:32

So the way I have found it to be useful is it teaches you how to be present with something, and in a world where we're so easily distracted, that really becomes a skill to hone. When you have the bar on your back or in your hands, you are rewarded for how present you are. You do not want to be distracted. You can tell when you're trying to think about too many things and you feel how great a rep can be when you're focused on like one thing at a time. You know what does it feel like to be in my midfoot, what does it feel like to place my knees here, and that's such a great place to be in your brain. And I like to keep my entire training sessions present. I hate when I get down in an email. I don't even like to look at my phone when I train anymore. I just want to listen to my music and I want to do my lifts and to have that kind of sacred space where you can let your brain breathe and just connect with your body. I think having that spot in your calendar is really important for mental health, or else you're spending the rest of your day in a really kind of reactive territory, most likely. So I think that's a big one.

Niki Sims: 1:01:56

And also we touched on this earlier but taking responsibility for yourself. It's your training, it's your eating, it's your body. You are the one who's responsible for it and you can blame stuff on your coach. You can blame stuff on your parents. You are the one who's responsible for it and you can blame stuff on your coach. You can blame stuff on your parents, but you're the one who's making the choices and when you train for a long time, you learn what you have to, I guess, roll with in terms of hormones and energy fluctuations and injuries and stuff like that. But you also learn how to succeed because of what you do and the choices you make and the resources you start to call upon. And that's fun to learn how you can win and you can feel successful and at peace with yourself. I'm glad I asked you the questions.

Niki Sims: 1:02:46

I think about that a lot. I just want to sit on that no for real.

Philip Pape: 1:02:49

Like just you said, we're being rewarded for how present you are. I really love that and it actually makes a good kick in the pants to me too, cause when I lift sometimes I get distracted by emails or whatever. Yeah, and then the opposite would be like, like you said, just being mindful even if you don't listen to music. Try that. I've found that that's an interesting, it is nice to be too, because then you can like almost talk to yourself about the cues and stuff yeah, yeah, one of my favorite things is feeling the midfoot when I'm dead lifting and when I'm squatting.

Niki Sims: 1:03:18

It's the ultimate cue, like if, if something's wrong down there and you fix it, probably something or two or three other things are going to click into place, and that's a fun one because it's I don't know. I just always feel much stronger when I figure out what that feels like. It's a fun one to warm up with too.

Philip Pape: 1:03:35

And I know you're a good coach you probably look at form checks and you can just see that tiny bit of deviation.

Lisa: 1:03:39

you know in the toe or the heel and be like okay, that's what we got to work on.

Philip Pape: 1:03:43

And you also said taking responsibility, which I totally agree. I definitely see a dichotomy in there, in the lifting community, between the folks who are kind of committed to it and they no matter what happens. They're like I'm going to learn from this and I'm going to keep going versus the ones who are like excuse, excuse, excuse, it's like it's not my fault, it's something else.

Niki Sims: 1:04:02

Sure, it's going to happen to you. So what, what?

Philip Pape: 1:04:04

are you going to do with it?

Niki Sims: 1:04:05

Yeah, and that can look like program hopping. It can look like getting the instant fix that is being pushed on you on Instagram. You know biohacking, but when you train for the long haul, when you coach someone for the long haul, that stuff doesn't. It's just kind of noise. You really have to learn how to adapt training to the circumstances of your life yeah, which you have to do all the time, and it translates to life too.

Philip Pape: 1:04:36

Yeah, it just makes. Yeah, translate.

Niki Sims: 1:04:38

So would you say lifting is more art than science, or a little both I think programming has a lot of art to it because you have to be creative. And you have to be creative and you have to elicit an emotion. There's some people who don't really care. They're just like give me my 3x5s, give me my 3x8s, whatever I'll do it. It's great. But when someone is bought into their program, it becomes more effective and the relationship improves. So I think a good coach knows how to program, based on what a client's goals are and what makes them feel good about themselves, and invested in their training. That makes it more successful.

Philip Pape: 1:05:17

Love it All right. Last, or maybe second to last, question would be for any women listening to this right now. She knows she wants to get stronger. She's very inspired. You know how this is like you hear a podcast, you're energized and it falls away if you don't do something. What is she need to do to commit to this? What is the next achievable step?

Niki Sims: 1:05:36

I think you should get a coach, and I say this because I'm a coach, but it's also be and I'm a coach because this is what I believe in. I agree, I'm sure you have coaches too. Yeah, I have a coach, for sure. So many times I get excited about something and then I start to research it and I get completely overwhelmed with all the things that people are telling me I should do. Before I know it, I haven't done anything.

Niki Sims: 1:05:56

But a good coach will find out what's important to you, they will learn about what you have available to you and they will give you the recipe to get started. And that can be the biggest. First step is like get someone to help you get started for your first week or your first month, and then you're going to be on a really good trajectory from there. But I think a coach is a great thing to outsource your training to, because they have so much experience experience and that's what you hire them for. Hire them for their experience. They know better than you. It's like such a good way to respect your own time. If you respect your time, get a coach.

Philip Pape: 1:06:39

No matter how stubborn you are, get a coach, trust me. Yeah, yes, do you know. You know John Patrizzo.

Niki Sims: 1:06:44

Oh my gosh, I love him. Yes, I call him Dr Cargo Shorts.

Philip Pape: 1:06:47

Yeah, yeah, cargo Shorts. Yes, he helped me out early in the year or last year with just coming up with a training program for like one month, you know, as I was dealing with some regression in my post-surgery situation and again I was being really stubborn. I'm like frustrated, frustrating, hitting a wall, hitting a wall. I just got to get a coach. It wasn't even about money or anything, it was just my stubbornness. And way back when I started starting strength, I went to Cody and Eno here in Connecticut and like an hour he fixed, you know, months and months of bad habits even though I read the books, watched the videos, did the things.

Philip Pape: 1:07:20

So, listen to what Nikki's saying, get a coach, yeah, get a coach. All right. So I do like to ask this of all guests, and that is is there anything you wish? I had asked that we didn't cover.

Niki Sims: 1:07:32

I always ask people that's in their PDC interviews. Well, I'm thinking of you know, it seems like every year or I don't know, every stretch of time, there's like a theme in my own lifting around my coaching, and the one that's coming up for me now is just really appreciating time and how important appreciating that as a variable is. It's one that we have no control over, and so the best you can do is appreciate what it can do for the other things that you do have control over. And I keep seeing this as like an example in when I'm programming the deadlift and when I'm doing my own deadlift, it does so well when I don't load it heavy every single week. It needs time.

Niki Sims: 1:08:24

And same thing with nutrition. Your choices they're hard at the day, they're hard for a week, but if you let that pile up for three weeks and six weeks and two months and three months and four months, stuff happens. But you can't control time. And it's a really. It's one that you can only appreciate after you've been doing this for so long and you can feel how it becomes a really special part of your training because it also makes you realize, oh, I have time, I don't have to force this PR right now. I don't have to do a significant deficit. I can do a more conservative deficit. I have time. So really appreciating how that can be a it can't be something that you ignore. You have to, you know, include that in how you're thinking about things.

Philip Pape: 1:09:21

So, guys, nikki just reframed a constant fixed variable that we always think of as limit limitation yeah into an advantage yeah of like you, go through the process and let it percolate, let it marinate, let it ruminate whatever the word is over time that's so good.

Niki Sims: 1:09:39

Yeah, thanks for saying that so eloquently.

Philip Pape: 1:09:42

No, no, you said it, you said elegant, I just built off of it. Um, yeah, you should do a whole like episode about that. On, on on beast over burden.

Niki Sims: 1:09:49

Just talk about time. We keep bringing it up, and I think that's why it's just like. You know, how, how is this? How am I putting so much gravity on this moment versus what if I let myself think of not just this one moment, but the next three weeks? And how does that change the pressure of this decision? It's an important one, yeah.

Philip Pape: 1:10:13

Yeah, and I don't know if this helps or not, but the more you give yourself the time to grow, probably the more time you'll have in your life Like literally, your lifespan and your health span will be longer. So you're almost getting a payback for that investment.

Niki Sims: 1:10:28

Yeah, that is nice to think about. Yeah, to me that just feels like a relief. You don't have to have it all figured out right now. You have to take action. But again, there's never an end. It's just infinite, until you die.

Philip Pape: 1:10:43

Love it All right, this has been a lot of fun. I mean really really so much fun. I'm so glad that we connected and that we were on the show.

Niki Sims: 1:10:50

Thanks for having this podcast.

Philip Pape: 1:10:52

Yeah, yeah. No, it's the labor of love. It came out of my own passion before I ever got into coaching or anything. So keep it going Nice. Um, where should people find you? I want to send them to the best place.

Niki Sims: 1:11:09

So I Instagram.

Philip Pape: 1:11:10

I haven't figured out a good way to say, my Instagram handle yet.

Niki Sims: 1:11:13

Nikkiinthegym. Thank you, yeah, I just need a rapper, I need a hype boy. Nikki in the gym, it's Nikki with one K. There's a period between each word. I'm also at barbelllogiccom slash team. You can just Google Nikki Sims. I think my image search history. There used to be another Nikki Sims that would pop up when you typed that. But she is the Nikki with two Ks and we have very different jobs.

Philip Pape: 1:11:38

Okay, and now I'm curious, but okay.

Niki Sims: 1:11:44

And on YouTube I'm also. What am I? Nikki Sims in the gym.

Philip Pape: 1:11:50

Got it and of course, the podcast.

Niki Sims: 1:11:52

Yeah, yes, yes, come to our podcast. We're Beast Over Burden, powered by Barbell Logic. I'm sorry for the worst delivery of. Where can I find you answers ever? Not at all, not at all, don't worry.

Philip Pape: 1:12:01

I'm just going to edit it all out. I'm just kidding. No, it's all good. It's all good. We'll include those in the show notes. As always, really solid, so much fun. If anybody has questions, you guys should reach out to Nikki for just to answer the question, to say hi, she will respond to you. Love it, you can go to If you need a coach, whatever. Yeah.

Niki Sims: 1:12:18

Yeah, if you want to learn and I am in the abundance mindset of online coaching, like love that people are able to do that. Now, if you want to do a call with us, you can go to barbellogiccom experience. It's a free call with a coach. Again, I just want people to get coaching and that's a way for you to see what it might be like with us or with whoever, so check that out too 100%.

Philip Pape: 1:12:42

Yeah, all right, nikki, it's been so much fun. It's been awesome we're it's been awesome. We're going to get a lot of people strong, bulky jacked, whatever phrase hits with you, down with the thickness.

Lisa: 1:12:52

Yeah, let's get down with the thickness.

Philip Pape: 1:12:54

Yeah, I like it alright. Nikki, thanks so much for coming on thanks for having me.

Niki Sims: 1:12:57

Thanks everybody.

10 Reasons Muscle Burns Even More Calories Than You Think (Thermal Mass) | Ep 291

Get your free Muscle-Building Nutrition Blueprint at witsandweights.com/muscle to optimize your nutrition for maximum muscle growth while minimizing fat gain.

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You've heard that a pound of muscle burns 6-9 calories per day at rest, but most fitness experts stop there.

Discover the engineering concept of Thermal Mass and how it parallels the way muscle tissue creates a metabolic environment that dramatically increases your daily calorie burn through multiple mechanisms most people never consider.

Main Takeaways:

• The commonly cited "6-9 calories per pound" dramatically underestimates muscle's true metabolic impact

• Muscle affects your metabolism in 9 additional ways beyond just its resting calorie burn

• Building muscle creates a body that maintains stable, healthy body composition with greater metabolic flexibility

• The engineering principle of thermal mass provides the perfect analogy for understanding these complex mechanisms

Episode Mentioned:

• The Most UNDERRATED Fat Loss Secret Making You FATTER (and Sabotaging Muscle Gain Too)

Timestamps:

0:02 - Why the standard calculation of muscle's calorie burn is incomplete
4:59 - #1: The 24/7 furnace effect
6:22 - #2: Burn more doing the same thing?
7:17 - #3: Heavier = Leaner
8:12 - #4: The 38-hour afterburn while you sleep
9:54 - #5: How muscles transform fat tissue
11:24 - #6: The training-triggered fat burner
12:40 - #7: A buffer system for metabolic stability
14:30 - #8: Activate calorie-burning brown fat
15:11 - #9: The secret weapon against metabolic slowdown during dieting
16:04 - #10: Creating a metabolic furnace beyond just muscle
17:20 - Practical applications for transforming your physique
21:42 - Philip's crazy musings and diatribes (to psych you up)

Don't forget to download your free Muscle-Building Nutrition Blueprint

Muscle Burns More Calories Than You Think: The 10 Mechanisms That Supercharge Your Metabolism

You've probably heard that every pound of muscle burns more calories—typically around 6 to 9 per day. That number sounds disappointingly small when you consider the effort it takes to build muscle. But what if I told you that this basic calculation massively underestimates how muscle impacts your metabolism?

In this episode of Wits & Weights, we're uncovering 10 distinct mechanisms that make muscle a metabolic powerhouse, far beyond the calories it burns at rest. These hidden factors are why lifters can eat more food without gaining fat, maintain leaner physiques effortlessly, and experience fewer metabolic slowdowns over time.

Why Muscle Acts Like Thermal Mass for Your Metabolism

Before jumping into the 10 mechanisms, let's use an analogy. In engineering and architecture, thermal mass describes a material's ability to absorb, store, and release heat over time. Think of concrete or brick—they slowly absorb heat and gradually release it, stabilizing temperature without needing constant energy input.

Your muscle tissue functions the same way. Instead of heat, it regulates energy balance, calorie burn, and metabolic efficiency, keeping your metabolism running smoothly even when you're not working out.

1. Muscle Directly Increases Your Resting Metabolism

Muscle burns more calories at rest than fat—this part is well known. Studies show that each pound of muscle burns 6 to 9 calories per day, meaning an extra 10 pounds of muscle adds roughly 90 extra calories burned daily. It’s a small boost, but when combined with the other mechanisms below, the real impact is exponential.

2. Muscle Increases Calories Burned During Movement

Because muscle is active tissue, carrying more of it increases the number of calories you burn even during low-intensity activities like walking, standing, or fidgeting. If two people weigh the same, but one has significantly more muscle, they’ll burn more calories doing the same activities.

3. More Muscle Means You Carry More Weight (and Burn More Calories)

Muscle is denser than fat, meaning you can weigh more while maintaining a leaner body composition. Simply put: if you weigh more (because of muscle), you burn more total calories every day—even at rest.

4. Strength Training Triggers EPOC (The Afterburn Effect)

After a hard training session, your metabolism stays elevated for up to 38 hours—a phenomenon called Excess Post-Exercise Oxygen Consumption (EPOC). The more muscle you have, the greater this effect becomes.

5. Muscle Releases Myokines That Help Burn Fat

Muscle isn’t just passive tissue—it’s an endocrine organ that releases signaling molecules called myokines. One of these, irisin, can reprogram fat cells to burn more calories instead of storing energy, directly increasing fat metabolism.

6. Strength Training Enhances Fat Oxidation

During training, your muscles release interleukin-6 (IL-6), which signals your body to burn fat more efficiently. The more muscle you have, the more IL-6 you produce, improving your ability to use stored fat for energy.

7. Muscle Improves Insulin Sensitivity

Muscle tissue acts as a “sink” for glucose, preventing blood sugar spikes and reducing insulin resistance. The more muscle you have, the better your body utilizes carbs, making it easier to stay lean while eating more.

8. Strength Training Activates Brown Fat

Unlike white fat (which stores calories), brown fat burns calories to generate heat. Strength training activates brown fat, increasing total calorie burn beyond what would normally be expected.

9. Muscle Helps Regulate Appetite and Metabolism

When you train, your muscles release GDF-15 (Growth Differentiation Factor 15), which helps suppress hunger and regulate metabolism, making it easier to maintain a leaner body composition.

10. Muscle Supports Thermogenesis (Heat Generation)

Strength training activates Free Fatty Acid Receptor 4 (FFAR4), a receptor that signals increased fat oxidation and thermogenesis (calorie burning through heat production). This means your body naturally burns more energy when you carry more muscle.

How to Leverage These 10 Mechanisms to Burn More Calories

Train With Progressive Overload

The best way to build muscle is to progressively challenge your muscles over time. This means lifting heavier, increasing reps, or adding training volume to drive adaptation.

Eat Enough Protein

You need at least 0.7–1.0g of protein per pound of body weight to build and maintain muscle. Protein also has a high thermic effect, meaning you burn more calories digesting it compared to carbs and fats.

Stop Fearing Calories

Muscle requires energy to grow. While you don’t need a massive calorie surplus, chronic under-eating makes muscle building nearly impossible.

Strength Train 3-5 Days a Week

To keep your metabolism firing, lifting weights is non-negotiable. A mix of heavy compound movements and hypertrophy-focused work will maximize your muscle-building potential.

Be Patient—Muscle Is a Long-Term Investment

Building muscle takes months and years, not days and weeks. But every pound you gain increases your metabolic efficiency, making fat loss easier and allowing you to eat more without gaining fat.

Final Thoughts: Why This Matters for Fat Loss and Longevity

Muscle isn’t just about looking good—it’s a biological advantage that makes fat loss easier, boosts your metabolism, and improves insulin sensitivity. If you’ve ever wondered why lifters seem to eat more without gaining fat, this is why.

This isn’t just about “burning more calories.” It’s about retraining your body to use energy efficiently, making it easier to stay lean, strong, and metabolically healthy for life.

Want to take advantage of these benefits? Download my free Muscle Building Nutrition Blueprint to learn exactly how to eat, train, and build muscle without unnecessary fat gain.

👩‍💻 Book a FREE 15-Minute Rapid Nutrition Assessment:
https://witsandweights.com/free-call

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Transcript

Philip Pape: 0:02

You've probably heard that every extra pound of muscle burns more calories, specifically about six to nine calories per day. It doesn't sound like much, and most fitness experts will actually stop right there and say, okay, more muscle burns more calories. Moving on, today we're going to talk about 10 distinct mechanisms that actually make muscle tissue a metabolic powerhouse, well beyond just the calories that it burns by itself, and that exponentially increases how many calories you burn every day. I hope through this, you'll finally understand why building muscle creates such profound changes in your body composition, energy levels and metabolic health. Welcome to Wits and Weights, the show that helps you build a strong, healthy physique using evidence, engineering and efficiency. I'm your host, philip Pape, and today we're exploring why muscle tissue impacts your metabolism far more profoundly than you might think or you've been told.

Philip Pape: 1:09

You've likely heard that muscle burns more calories than fat. Now people used to use this to say it burns way more calories and fortunately, most of the industry has heard the evidence by now that muscle burns about 6 to 10 calories per pound at rest, or six to nine I think. Now that number seems disappointingly small when you consider how hard you work to gain each pound of muscle, Because if you have an extra 10 pounds of muscle, we're talking, at most, 90 more calories a day. You're like, oh, that's not that much. But what if I told you that this basic calculation actually underestimates the overall systemic metabolic impact of muscle tissue? And this is the kind of stuff I think about, guys, when I go to sleep at night. Is what's really happening when I or my clients add five pounds of muscle and all of a sudden you're burning way more calories than you would think from just five pounds of muscle. There are other things going on, and so there's this parallel between how muscle affects your metabolism and how thermal mass in materials. Yes, this is the engineering connection I'm making today, the analogy thermal mass and thermal mass. Materials regulate temperature, so materials like concrete or water. They absorb heat, they store it, they release it gradually to maintain stable temperatures. Well, your muscle tissue actually creates a metabolic environment that constantly consumes, uses and distributes energy throughout your body. It's super, super active. It's like its own organism taking care of things for you, and this thermal mass analogy helps explain why the metabolic benefits of muscle go beyond those basic six to nine calories per pound.

Philip Pape: 2:45

Before we get into these 10 mechanisms that I want to talk about. If you're ready to start adding more muscle right now, you can't wait. Download my free muscle building nutrition blueprint. I believe it is our most downloaded, most popular guide. It's a very detailed guide that breaks down how to eat and how fast to gain and a whole bunch of other details what to measure, what to track to maximize your muscle gain while minimizing your fat gain, which is something you want to do. If you want to take advantage of the 10 things we're talking about today, click the link in the show notes or go to whitsonweightscom slash muscle to get your free muscle building nutrition blueprint.

Philip Pape: 3:23

All right, let's get into the science of muscle metabolism. All right, first we're gonna explore this concept of thermal mass, and I'm honestly not gonna take very much time on that. Then we'll get into the 10 specific mechanisms by which muscle increases your daily calorie burn and then, finally, how to leverage these to transform your physique, which we're all here for right. So let's start with this concept of thermal mass.

Philip Pape: 3:46

In engineering, in architecture, thermal mass is a material's ability to absorb, store and release heat. So materials with high thermal mass, like concrete, brick, water they absorb heat slowly, they store it efficiently and they release it gradually, and that is why they are really good materials for regulating temperature in buildings. Right, concrete, brick water. When the sun beats down on a stone house during the day, the walls don't just heat up right Like an oven, they slowly absorb the thermal energy and then they keep the interior cool as a result. Right, I grew up in Florida. We had cinder block houses with holes in them for that reason. And then, as evening approaches and outside temperatures drop, the same walls gradually release the stored heat, so they maintain this nice, comfortable internal temperature without any additional energy required to change the temperature. And that is very similar to how muscle tissue functions metabolically in your body. Just like high thermal mass materials create thermal efficiency and stability, muscle tissue creates metabolic efficiency and stability. Boom. And that is how I wanted to create an analogy today to the engineering world.

Philip Pape: 4:59

And we are now going to explore how this happens through 10 distinct mechanisms. And here's another episode. I spent a lot of time researching because I am so curious and not skeptical, but like I just really wonder what the heck is going on in our bodies where people with more muscle mass burn more calories, and it does not seem to be explained simply by the amount of calories muscle burns. All right, so let's start with that one and then go to the other nine. So the first mechanism is it's increasing your resting energy expenditure, your BMR, your basal metabolic rate, because even when completely at rest, muscle tissue requires energy for maintenance, and it requires more than any other types of tissue. And so the often cited figure of six to nine calories per day we've alluded to is accurate for this mechanism. And the cool thing about it is it's 24 seven, right, your muscles are just burning away like a furnace 24 seven at this higher rate. So the more you add, the more you burn, and there's nothing more to this in that you know six to nine calories. So let's say, on the upper end, nine calories a day per pound. When you add 10 pounds of muscle to your frame, that's extra 90 calories per day, which isn't nothing. It's small-ish, but it's not nothing. It all starts to add up. Add another five pounds, add another 10 pounds of muscle over the course of your lifting career, and now you're constantly burning a couple hundred calories more a day. So that's mechanism number one, which we've already talked about.

Philip Pape: 6:22

Now let's get into the cool stuff. Mechanism number two is the fact that when you have more muscle, it is because it is not just passively on your body, it is actively participating in your movement. It even inches up your calorie burn when you're doing physical activity versus somebody else who's the same weight but they have less muscle, if that makes sense. So even if you're the same body weight but you have more muscle mass, you have a better body composition. You're then going to potentially burn more doing what you're doing training, walking, moving, cardio, whatever and I don't think we can quantify how much that is Is it 10 calories? Is it 50 calories? But it's just a fact that you are going to be able to burn a little bit more because you have improved body composition. And that leads us to the third mechanism, which is the improved body composition allows you to carry more total body weight while maintaining lower body fat percentage.

Philip Pape: 7:17

And so a lot of my clients you know they might go through an initial fat loss phase and then they're all excited to build muscle. We build muscle. Now they have an extra five, seven pounds of muscle and then they want to do another fat loss phase, but they realize they don't need to lose as much as last time. So and I see this in my own weight graph from my last, say, four years. It goes up and then down, then up then down, but every time it goes up, it goes up higher than last time, and every time it goes down it doesn't go as far down, meaning I can walk around at, say, 180 pounds, whereas before I'd be 170 pounds for the same body fat percentage. So guess what, when you are heavier, you burn more calories just from being heavier Awesome. So that's definitely a reason why some people who have more muscle burn more calories. They're just carrying more weight in general, which is amazing for many other things, not the least of which is now you can eat more food. All of this stuff actually lets you eat more food and you burn more calories, not the least of which is now you can eat more food. All of this stuff actually lets you eat more food and you burn more calories.

Philip Pape: 8:12

So mechanism number four is called EPOC, post-exercise caloric burn, also called the afterburner effect, and I don't want to overstate any of these mechanisms. This is all kind of nerdy and in the weeds, and I will admit, with all the research that I did, there's not like one body of research that combines all of this together to say like, if you have an extra pound of muscle, you're going to end up burning an extra, you know, 20 calories a day because of all these factors. Nothing says that I am basically stitching these together. So you guys understand the value of it and nerd out with me together. All right, all right.

Philip Pape: 8:46

So EPOC, or afterburner effect this is where, after you exercise, after you've elevated your heart rate whether it's training, movement, cardio, whatever, sprinting your body's gonna continue burning calories at an elevated rate for hours. Now two things happen. One is while you're in the gym and Brad Kearns talked about this when he was on the show even when you're effing around between your sets, doing nothing, your heart rate is probably elevated because every time you hit another set, you bump it back up. Well, now you're just burning way more calories for that whole session than if you weren't exercising. It makes sense, right? But the other thing is, after you stop working out, your body will have an elevated metabolism. For a while, I actually found that studies seem to agree. It's long. It's like well over a day Like degree. It's long. It's like well over a day, like I think I saw 38 hours post-workout for an intense strength training session, 38 hours. That's like a day and a half where you have an elevated metabolism just from that training session. And so now, if you have significant muscle mass, this might mean a lot of extra calories burned, because you're now stacking it on top of the extra calories you're able to burn because you have more muscle mass, if that makes sense, right? So you're just stacking all this stuff on top of each other, all right.

Philip Pape: 9:54

Mechanism number five is myokine secretion and fat metabolism. I believe I'm pronouncing that, right, myokine. So think of muscles as an organ, right? Like the biggest, one of the biggest organs on the body. It's an endocrine organ. It secretes compounds. One of those is called myokines, like when you contract your muscle, and those myokines regulate fat metabolism and insulin sensitivity. Now, side tangent we know that strength training and having more muscle both improve insulin sensitivity tremendously. Just keep that in mind. Which allows you to eat more carbs, allows you to utilize carbs, allows you to be healthy in terms of blood sugar, a1c, all that. So back to myokines. So myokines ensure kind of like an efficient energy usage across your body and because of that, you potentially can burn more calories beyond the immediate location of where you're using the muscle, of where you're using the muscle. And there's a, there's a myokine called irisin irisin or irisin I-R-I-S-I-N. That programs white fat cells to behave more like brown fat cells, which are more active, and so there is a theory there that that is part of that process. You're actually turning fat tissue into a more calorie burning fat tissue, and I think this also correlates somewhat with the idea that visceral fat is more active, right? So when you are strength training, when you're active, when you're muscular, you actually use more of that fat, which is why it's easier to keep smaller belly and reduce belly fat when you lift weights. Cool, all right.

Philip Pape: 11:24

Mechanism number six is enhanced fat oxidation through IL-6, interleukin-6. This is a cool one, okay. When I first heard about this, I want to say, like a couple years ago, I was like what are they talking about? This is a compound released during strength training. Okay, so this is while you're lifting weights. So remember, it's not just about having the muscle, it's also the process you go through to have the muscle. And I think it's really empowering to know that not only is strength training a hard thing that's satisfying to do, but it also has a lot of other in the moment, benefits. We're not talking endorphins and dopamine, right, instant gratification. We're talking like really fundamental physiological benefits of the training itself. And so this compound is released and it triggers fat oxidation, probably because your body's like I'm going to need some energy soon, so we're going to break down some fat for energy, okay. And so IL-6 transforms how your body utilizes fat. It makes you a more efficient fat burner, and so the more muscle you have, the more IL-6 you produce during activity. Because now you're stacking that on top of your training and training more intensely, it accelerates fat metabolism beyond what would be predicted. Again, just by looking at the resting calorie burn of your muscle, you see the pattern here, right, these things stack on top of each other.

Philip Pape: 12:40

Mechanism number seven All right, now we're getting really nerdy on this one Fibroblast growth factor 21,. Fgf21. It's another compound produced by muscles which is crazy. Like muscle is producing all these things that are only beneficial. It enhances insulin sensitivity. It enhances metabolic efficiency, which means you could adapt to different energy demands.

Philip Pape: 13:02

This goes back to, you know, your ability to switch between energy systems. Right, and it's like a, it's like a buffer. Muscle mass maintains muscle mass is like a sink I've used that term, a sink for glucose, but it's also this buffer that helps your metabolism remain more stable despite changes in calorie intake. It also helps regulate glucose metabolism, which is your ability to switch between carb and fat burning right, and that also helps you with weight management. So all this stuff is tied together in a crazy, amazing, beautiful way, bringing this to mechanism number eight, the activation of brown adipose tissue. So we talked about myokines like erycin, which activate brown adipose tissue, which then burns calories purely to produce heat rather than store energy, and so I'm closing the loop with that one, because that wasn't even the benefit of the myokines. This is another benefit of the myokines, where brown fat can burn up to like 300 calories per day in some individuals on their body, and those would never have been factored in if you didn't have it. This one I'm a little skeptical about, but the more I research it and kind of follow it up and follow it up, it looks like it's a legitimate mechanism. There are many other mechanisms people claim when it comes to brown fat and white fat, and maybe the jury's still out here, but I still think it jives with the fact that when you are more muscular and you train, you are transforming your body in many ways beyond what we realize. It is not just visual, it is deep down at the cellular level. It's incredible.

Philip Pape: 14:30

All right, mechanism number nine growth differentiation factor 15. I told you we were getting nerdy here, guys. Gdf-15, and that is also released by muscle that's been exercised. So it's kind of like the what do we call it? The FGF21? No, not that one the IL-6. Yes, like IL-6, it's released when you exercise. I'm going back to my notes here. And GDF-15, guess what it does? It regulates appetite and energy balance and metabolic stress. It helps your body maintain metabolic homeostasis effectively when you are stressed or in a calorie deficit. Okay, think about that. Think about that.

Philip Pape: 15:11

I've talked many times about how our bodies seem to be way more resilient to the stresses we put on it when we're lifting weights and have more muscle. This sounds to be, this sounds like. When I came across this, I'm like this is so cool. This is an actual biological mechanism that could explain part of that right. And so when you have more muscle mass and I've seen this with my lifters who've been lifting for many years they don't have as much of a slowdown in their metabolism when they diet. It just seems to be the case. Now it's relative to that same person if they didn't have as much muscle and we can't do that study, can we? So it's hard to like, you can't necessarily compare across people that way, but it just seems to be the case and it would. Would be explained by this right. And so you regulate appetite, regulate energy intake. Now it's going to support your calorie, calorie expenditure, because now you're going to be able to eat more, even in a fat loss phase, and you're regulating your energy or your appetite and you're going to prevent overconsumption.

Philip Pape: 16:04

Pretty fascinating stuff, okay, and I keep saying that I know, but even I am, having gone through this research, the final mechanism number 10, because 10 is a nice round number, but also 10 seemed to be the amount of things I could find is free fatty acid receptor 4, ffar4, along with thermogenesis. So the last one here is where muscle activity so again using the muscles, pretty cool. Muscle activity triggers FFAR4 activation and what that does is stimulate fat burning thermogenesis, which is generating heat from calories. And really that's all the information I have. Basically, it shows you how muscle creates this metabolic furnace of an environment that's constantly burning more calories in ways that seem to be above and beyond the muscle tissue's own energy needs, and that's really what I wanted to include here.

Philip Pape: 16:57

You're welcome to listen to these, listen to the show note, or look at the show notes and listen to this again and kind of do your own research on these. If you find anything I said that was incorrect, let me know. This is really deep into the stuff. That's even beyond where I typically ever have to go, because I I don't need to be explaining this to to my clients, but I like to know it as a science communicator. So check them out if you want, um, practical implications.

Philip Pape: 17:20

So, now that we understand these 10 mechanisms, kind of hopefully, how do we apply this to transform our physiques? Cause, here's the thing you don't have to understand why any of these things work. You just need to go and lift weights and eat your food and you'll get there. And that's that's how I generally help. People is like let's just focus on what we can do and can control. But I also have this podcast and people are people expect me to kind of get uh, to geek out on this stuff. So the what is the first thing you could do? Okay, duh, persistent resistance training, right? Okay, if you're lifting. If you're listening to this podcast and you don't already lift weights, you're like who is this guy, this crazy guy? You'll quickly find out that well, first of all, weights is in the name of the podcast Wits and Weights, so it's important. But secondly, it is the number one thing everybody should be doing to the day they die resistance training.

Philip Pape: 18:05

If you are currently focused on cardio for weight management, if you think diet's going to solve everything and you don't need to lift, think again. Right, you've got to lift. You've got to lift at least two or three days a week. At least at least two to three days a week. The long-term metabolic advantages are just too critical and significant to ignore.

Philip Pape: 18:25

Second, with your resistance training, you've got to do it right. You've got to focus on progressive overload To continuously build the muscle. You have to progressively challenge your muscles with increasing effort of some kind. And I say it that way because, yes, you can increase weight on the bar. You know the amount of weight you're moving. You could also increase volume. You can increase sets, reps. There's lots of ways to progressively overload and the more advanced you get, the more nuanced this gets. But I don't want to overcomplicate it Basically. Basically, your training has to challenge you more and more over time and that ensures that you adapt and that you develop these muscles. And there's a strength component and there's a muscle component. They overlap to some degree. If you're a beginner, just getting stronger is going to build muscle too, and then eventually you can branch out to more specialization All right. Third out of out of uh five things here Okay. Out to more specialization All right. Third out of out of uh five things here Okay.

Philip Pape: 19:17

Third, for practical application of what we're talking about protein into it in protein intake super critical. That goes hand in hand with your training, right? About 0.7 to one gram per pound of your target body weight every day. Once you have that sufficient protein which we talked about, I think, just um. Two days ago on our last episode, I deep-dived into how macros work in your body. That is going to allow your body to build and maintain muscle mass, and I'm not going to say it mitigates a quasi-effective training program, but you've got to have both in place. And by having both in place, you've given yourself a little bit of a buffer to experiment, to play around, to see how things work for you and then to grow your butt off and build that muscle.

Philip Pape: 19:53

Fourth, don't fear calories. We've got to stop fearing food. Building muscle requires energy. You don't need a massive surplus, but chronically under eating is going to sabotage your ability to build muscle, and also under eating carbs. More muscle means a higher metabolic rate. That is the whole point of this episode. If you want that, if you want that, you've got to go into a muscle building phase at some point. You can't just try to limp along body recomp or dieting all the time. You just can't.

Philip Pape: 20:19

I've done a lot of episodes on this. If you're curious about the best one, um, I would go look at the one. It's called the most underrated. Look for the word underrated in my podcast library. Search the word underrated Um for the word underrated in my podcast library. Search the word underrated Um, and it was toward the end of 2024. If I, if I don't forget, I will include that in the show notes.

Philip Pape: 20:39

Last thing you gotta be patient and consistent. This is a long game, folks is a long game, but it's a beautiful long game. It is one of uh, what, what the people at Barbara logic called voluntary hardship. It's doing a hard thing that is super satisfying and fulfilling, instead of the instant gratification or being lazy, it's being you know, I don't like to use the word disciplined I feel like there are ways to do this where it takes away a lot of the friction and you just do it and it doesn't even feel like discipline, like I don't feel like I'm disciplined because I train four days a week. I feel like I have to do that, like I just have to do it, and it's hard and I still have to do it because I know what the payoff is gonna be. Building muscle takes time. Building strength takes time. You know months, years, not days and weeks. Yes, you can get quick progress initially as a beginner, and that's empowering and that's nice to have that win. It's motivating, but then you gotta keep going. It's motivating, but then you got to keep going and the compounding effect of all this makes it one of the most worthwhile long-term investments you'll ever, ever, ever make in your health and your physique in your life. I hope I got that through to everyone.

Philip Pape: 21:42

This was a kind of a unique episode the way, the directions I took it. I think the true metabolic advantage here. Why even put this together? Even though it sounds like it's about calories, it's about resilience and adaptation and making your body super metabolically just strong to anything that's thrown at it. You think about people who seem to eat whatever they want without gaining weight. It's probably not their genetics. Maybe when they're 20 it is, but when they're older they probably have more muscle mass. They probably have more muscle mass Like. The people that can eat whatever they want at 45, around my age are the ones that are still fit and have muscle mass, because everyone else who's let themselves go. Trust me, they cannot eat whatever they want, right.

Philip Pape: 22:22

Being more active, being fit, being a person who moves not chronic cardio, but you lift and you move right and now you're activating all of those 10 mechanisms that we discussed today. You're not it's not just about calorie, but like temporarily increasing your calorie, but you're changing your body's relationship with energy Right energy, think about it fuel. You're creating a physique that efficiently utilizes calories to maintain your muscle, to recover for your activity, rather than someone who Defaults to storing fat. It's a huge difference in the type of person you want to be and live as, and this is why bodybuilders and lifters and powerlifters and strength athletes they can consume seemingly enormous amounts of food when they're at maintenance, definitely when they're building. I know when I'm building, like I am right now, it just doesn't end the amount of food I have to eat. And then, during maintenance, I get to eat I'll call it plenty Like I'll never, ever feel hungry, even at maintenance, because the muscle mass allows me to eat more than I used to, and I see it in my metabolism. How it's calculated I use macrofactor. You can see that the number is higher than it used to be, and I see that with all my clients as well. Right, so you've got this metabolic engine. It's powered by your muscle mass and it is running hot through those 10 mechanisms we discussed.

Philip Pape: 23:38

All right, I'm making this episode longer than it needs to be. Here's the thing. This is available to anyone. Any one of you listening, if you're willing to put in the work of progressive resistance training, get in the gym or home gym or whatever, regardless of your age, your gender, your hormone status, your genetics, it doesn't matter. The laws of physiology apply to everyone and muscle is going to respond to a proper stimulus at any age. That's it. All right, I'm not going to recap all the 10 mechanisms or anything. You can go back and listen to those If you're ready to start building more muscle and you want to leverage what we talked about today, just download the free resources I mentioned earlier.

Philip Pape: 24:18

It's free. What's the harm there? It's going to get you going, get you motivated. It's called the Muscle Building Nutrition Blueprint. It's a guide my most popular guide breaks down how to eat, how to train, what rate to go at, what to track, what to measure. It has an example of an actual muscle building phase. The whole shebang, okay, and you're going to minimize fat gain, which I know you want to do when you're building muscle. It tells you macros, tells you calories, tells you timing. Click the link in the show notes or go to witsandweightscom slash muscle to get your free copy Again. Witsandweightscom slash muscle or click the link in the show notes. Until next time, keep using your wits lifting those weights and remember that building muscle is about far more than just looking good. It's about creating a metabolic engine that supports lifelong health, performance and body composition. This is Philip Pape, and I'll talk to you next time here on the Wits and Weights Podcast.

What Happens to Macros (Carbs, Fats, and Protein) Inside Your Body? | Ep 290

Join the Wits & Weights Facebook group where this question originated and connect with like-minded people who are focused on evidence-based nutrition and training. Click here to join

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If you've been told that "a calorie is just a calorie" or that certain macros are "good" or "bad," you're missing the fascinating biological reality of how your body processes different foods.

Learn the surprising truth about what happens to each macronutrient inside your body, including why carbs don't easily convert to body fat, how fats support crucial hormones, and what makes protein so special for body composition.

Main Takeaways:

• Your body processes each macro through completely different pathways with unique effects on energy, hormones, and body composition

• Fears about carbs are completely misplaced once you understand what actually happens after digestion

• Fat metabolism reveals why certain dietary recommendations of the past were fundamentally flawed

• Understanding protein's unique properties explains why it's so powerful for physique transformation beyond just building muscle

• The concept of metabolic flexibility changes everything about how you should approach your nutrition strategy

Timestamps:

0:01 - Why simplified views of macros miss the biological reality
3:28 - Carbohydrates: from mouth to bloodstream and beyond
9:31 - Fats: the misunderstood macro and its critical functions
15:24 - Protein: the structural macro that burns calories during digestion
21:29 - Practical implications for meal composition and timing
27:40 - The surprising truth about metabolic flexibility
30:32 - Key takeaways and why balanced nutrition works best

What Happens to Macros in Your Body (and Why It Matters for Fat Loss and Muscle Growth)

If you've ever been told that "a calorie is just a calorie" or that carbs are the enemy, you're missing a critical piece of the puzzle—how your body actually processes different macronutrients. The truth is, what happens after you eat carbs, fats, and protein plays a huge role in your energy levels, muscle growth, and fat loss.

In this episode of Wits & Weights, we break down the journey of each macro—carbs, fats, and protein—from the moment you take a bite of food to how your body absorbs, stores, and uses those nutrients. If you're someone who tracks macros but still wonders why certain foods affect your body differently, this episode will clear up the confusion.

Carbohydrates: Energy or Fat Storage?

Carbs tend to be the most misunderstood macro, often blamed for weight gain. But in reality, all digestible carbs eventually get broken down into simple sugars—glucose, fructose, and galactose—which are then absorbed into your bloodstream.

• Immediate Energy: When you eat carbs, your body either burns them right away or stores them as glycogen in your muscles and liver.

• Glycogen Storage: Your muscles can store about 500g of glycogen, and your liver about 100g. This is crucial for high-intensity training.

• Fat Conversion Myth: Excess carbs don’t automatically turn into fat. The process, called de novo lipogenesis, is highly inefficient in humans. Instead, your body tends to burn excess carbs for energy while storing more dietary fat.

So, the real issue isn’t carbs—it’s overall calorie intake. If you’re in a surplus, you’ll store fat regardless of whether those extra calories come from carbs, fat, or even protein.

Fats: The Most Efficient Energy Storage

For decades, dietary fat was demonized, but fat plays an essential role in hormone production, brain health, and energy balance.

• Slow Digestion: Fats take longer to digest than carbs because they must be broken down with bile and enzymes before absorption.

• Energy Storage: Unlike carbs, which have a limited storage capacity (glycogen), fat can be stored in virtually unlimited amounts in adipose tissue.

• Fat Storage Efficiency: Dietary fat is stored in fat cells with minimal processing, making it the easiest macro to store as body fat. However, fat itself doesn’t make you fat—excess calories do.

• Types of Fat:

  • Saturated Fats (animal products, coconut oil) – Safe in moderation but should be kept under 10% of total calories.

  • Monounsaturated Fats (olive oil, avocados) – Generally beneficial for heart health.

  • Polyunsaturated Fats (omega-3s, seed oils) – Essential for the body, especially for reducing inflammation.

  • Trans Fats (processed foods, hydrogenated oils) – Avoid as much as possible due to proven negative health effects.

Protein: The Building Blocks of Muscle and Metabolism

Protein is the structural macro, critical for repairing and building muscle, regulating hormones, and supporting immune function.

• High Thermic Effect: Your body burns 20-30% of protein calories just digesting it (compared to 5-10% for carbs and 0-3% for fats).

• Muscle Retention: Adequate protein intake (0.7-1.0g per pound of body weight) is essential for preserving lean muscle, especially during fat loss.

• Satiety & Fat Loss: Protein keeps you full longer than carbs or fat, making it a game-changer for those trying to lose body fat without feeling constantly hungry.

• No Storage System: Unlike carbs and fat, protein doesn’t have a dedicated storage system. Your body either uses it or converts excess to glucose or fat.

Practical Takeaways: How to Apply This Knowledge

Now that you understand what happens to macros inside your body, here’s how to use that information to optimize fat loss and muscle growth:

1. Meal Composition Matters

Balancing protein, carbs, and fats in each meal helps stabilize energy, prevent blood sugar crashes, and support muscle maintenance. A simple meal could be:

• Protein: Chicken or tofu

• Carbs: Sweet potatoes or rice

• Fats: Avocado or olive oil

• Fiber: Leafy greens or other vegetables

2. Pre- and Post-Workout Nutrition

• Pre-Workout: Prioritize fast-digesting carbs and protein (avoid fat and fiber) to fuel your training. Example: Whey protein + banana.

• Post-Workout: Focus on protein and carbs to replenish glycogen and stimulate muscle recovery. Example: Chicken + rice.

3. Protein Timing

While total protein intake matters most, spreading it evenly across 3-5 meals can optimize muscle protein synthesis.

4. Adjusting Macros for Your Goals

• Fat Loss: Maintain protein intake, reduce carbs and fats to create a calorie deficit.

• Muscle Gain: Increase carbs and protein to fuel muscle growth while keeping fats moderate.

• Maintenance: Find a balance where you feel energized, strong, and can maintain body composition.

Final Thoughts: Don’t Fear Any Macro

Carbs aren’t evil, fat isn’t inherently bad, and protein isn’t just for bodybuilders. Your body thrives when all three macronutrients work together. Whether your goal is fat loss, muscle gain, or simply improving overall health, understanding how your body processes food will help you make smarter nutrition choices.

Want to dive deeper into these topics? Join our free Wits & Weights Facebook group, where we break down the science, answer your questions, and support each other’s progress.

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Transcript

Philip Pape: 0:01

If you've been told that a calorie is just a calorie, or that carbs are the enemy, or even that fat makes you fat, you're missing the crucial biological reality of how your body actually processes different foods. These oversimplifications ignore the complex journey that macros take once they enter your body, a journey that directly impacts your energy levels, your muscle growth and, yes, even your fat loss. Today, we're breaking down exactly what happens to each macro. After you swallow that bite of food, you'll discover why protein requires twice the energy to digest as carbs, why some carbs raise blood sugar faster than others, and how fat metabolism actually works. Welcome to Wits and Weights, the show that helps you build a strong, healthy physique using evidence, engineering and efficiency. I'm your host, philip Haidt, and today I'm going to answer a question that goes beyond simple calorie counting to a fascinating world of the biological mechanisms that determine how your body processes different foods. Now, this episode was inspired by Joy Kay from our Facebook group, who asked and I'm going to quote her directly I would like to know more about each macro and their function in the body. Do carbs turn into sugar? Speaking of sugar, what is its effect? And, joy, I love this question because understanding what happens to carbohydrates, fats and proteins after you eat them gives us some insights that go beyond just tracking the macros, and I don't think I've covered it in depth on the show before. So here we go. When you understand these processes, you can make better nutrition choices, and I love understanding that none of these things are to be feared. Most foods are not to be feared, and it really comes down to why certain strategies work for your goals while others fail for you and stop falling for nutrition myths that ignore the biological reality of how your body works. So today we're going to trace that journey of each macro, from the moment it enters your mouth to how it's broken down, absorbed and ultimately used by your body, with all of the important implications for your training, your body composition and your health. And I'm going to keep this a little science-y, but not too much, so I hope you enjoy the level of detail today Before we get into the science of macros.

Philip Pape: 2:30

If you enjoy evidence-based information, like on this podcast that cuts through the confusion of all the information in the fitness industry, join our Wits and Weights Facebook group. That is where Joy asks the excellent question we're answering today. It is full of like-minded people, curious people sharing their experiences, asking questions, supporting each other on their fitness journeys. Look for Wits and Weights on Facebook or click the link in the show notes to join our free community. So we're going to talk about a bunch of different things today and the way I've organized it is pretty logical. We're going to talk about carbohydrates, then fats, then protein and then tie it all together with practical implications for things like meal timing and food combinations and kind of your overall nutrition strategy. And I want to emphasize that understanding these it's not just academic, it does have real practical implications. You don't have to be a scientist per se. In fact, just listening to this podcast is a great way to absorb this information and understand. Hey, I've got some freedom and flexibility here based on what my goals are.

Philip Pape: 3:28

All right, let's start with carbohydrates, since they tend to be the most, I'll say, misunderstood and controversial macronutrient. And to answer Joy's direct question, yes, all digestible carbs do eventually get broken down into simple sugars in your body, but the process and the timeline can vary dramatically depending on the type of carbohydrate. So the journey begins in your mouth, where many journeys begin I'm sorry that was uncalled for when an enzyme called amylase starts breaking down complex carbs into simpler forms of carbs, and that's why, if you chew bread long enough, for example, it starts to taste sweet. I don't know if you ever thought about that before, but it's true. I used to love taking the crust off my bread and then squishing the bread into a little ball. Anyway, when that happens, you're literally beginning the conversion to sugar right there in your mouth. Very little digestion happens in your stomach for carbs.

Philip Pape: 4:24

The real action takes place in your small intestine, where more enzymes continue breaking down those complex carbs into their simplest forms glucose, fructose and galactose and these are the simple sugars that your body can actually absorb through the intestinal wall into your bloodstream. Then these simple sugars, bam, hit your bloodstream and what happens? Your pancreas releases insulin. Insulin is usually portrayed as a fat storage hormone, and that is an oversimplification, because it is really a crucial anabolic hormone. Remember anabolism. Anabolic means building up of tissue we love that word when it comes to growth and building muscle, and it helps transport nutrients into cells throughout your body. That is what insulin does. When it comes to carbs specifically, insulin helps shuttle the glucose from your bloodstream into different cells where it can be used for energy your brain and red blood cells, for example, preferentially use glucose for fuel. Now, when you consume more carbs than your body needs for immediate energy, that's where things get interesting and that's where a lot of the misconceptions come up.

Philip Pape: 5:34

Some glucose is stored in your liver and muscles as glycogen, so think of this as your body's short-term energy reserve system. It's super important for high intensity movement like strength training and glycolytic forms of activity, including various forms of cardio. Your muscles can store about 500 grams of glycogen. Your liver about 100 grams. Of course, the more muscle you have, the more you can store. Remember that. So that's about 2,400 calories of stored energy ready to fuel your workouts. The key point here that explains why carb loading before you train or have intense exercise can explain why this is so beneficial and why I talk about it all the time when it comes to your pre-workout meal is that your body can access glycogen stores much more rapidly than it can mobilize fat for energy, and that is why it is ideal for a heavy lifting session or an intense training session.

Philip Pape: 6:31

Now, if your glycogen stores are already full, contrary to popular belief, excess carbs don't just automatically get stored as body fat and you blow up and all of a sudden, you're just super fat because of carbs. It doesn't work that way. The process of converting carbs to fat, which is called de novo lipogenesis, is very inefficient in humans. Your body actually prefers to burn off the excess carbs by increasing energy expenditure or simply reducing fat oxidation, meaning it burns the carbs and saves the fat. Now that doesn't, of course, mean that you could eat unlimited carbs without gaining fat. That's energy balance, right. That is where you do get fat from eating carbs, just like you get fat from eating protein or fat as well, because you're eating too much. If you consistently eat more calories than you burn from any source, you will gain weight. Always remember that. It has nothing to do with the carbs. The metabolic pathway from carbs, specifically, to fat storage is way more complex than most people realize and, by the way, we're not going to dissect that all here today.

Philip Pape: 7:31

Now, not all carbs affect your body the same way. Important to understand that Factors like fiber, the structure of the food, how it's processed and then what you eat with the carbs will all influence how quickly they're broken down and how dramatically they affect your blood sugar and insulin levels. Right when you hear advice to add fats or protein to your carbs to reduce blood sugar spikes. That's why they're saying that this is the concept behind the glycemic index and glycemic load right Measures of how quickly and significantly a food raises your blood sugar. Foods with lower glycemic indexes, like most vegetables, legumes, you know, beans, some whole grains. They cause a slower, more moderate blood sugar response compared to high glycemic foods like white bread or, yes, even potatoes and processed things like sugary food, sugary drinks. And that difference in blood sugar response has implications for your energy level, for your hunger, even for your long-term health. But we don't want to conflate rapid blood sugar spikes short-term with long-term raised blood sugar. Very important distinction right Now foods that cause rapid spikes and crashes in blood sugar. They can lead to bigger fluctuations in your energy, they can affect your hunger signals and then, over time, if you have a high consumption of sugar and carbs and you are not utilizing it right and we want to utilize it with an active lifestyle, with strength training, with muscle mass, that's where potential issues with insulin sensitivity come into play, which, again, we are going to mitigate that such that it almost doesn't matter If you're, if you're covering all the bases, you can eat carbs and have a spike in blood sugar and in fact, a spike in blood sugar can be helpful when you're going into the gym and you're going to utilize that right, and that that's again where we conflate the issue. So that's the whole carb section I wanted to talk about and lead into the next one, and again we're gonna come back to implications when we tie all this together as a whole, as a whole. Okay.

Philip Pape: 9:31

Now let's talk about fats, which I wanna call, I guess, the most misunderstood macro of all. I mean, if it's not carbs, it's fat, because for decades okay and I'm 44, so I grew up in the 80s when fat-free and snack wells was the thing all the way up into the 90s We've been told that dietary fat made us fat and caused heart disease. There's a lot of reasons behind this and the history of the science and the seven country studies and saturated versus not. We're not going to get into all that. The reality, of course, is more nuanced. That's the point here, one of the points, and we're going to go through it.

Philip Pape: 10:05

So, fat digestion it starts minimally in your mouth and stomach, but mostly occurs in your small intestine, and it does so with the help of bile from your gallbladder and then enzymes from your pancreas and that's what breaks down dietary fats into fatty acids and glycerol, and then those are then absorbed into your intestinal cells. Pretty cool, right? So here's where fat metabolism gets more fascinating, I'll say. Unlike carbs, which travel directly into your bloodstream, dietary fats are packaged into lipoprotein bundles called chylomicrons, and these travel through your lymphatic system before they get to your bloodstream. Guys, if you're like, wow, philip knows his stuff, I did a lot of research for this episode and I have a lot of notes. So, just so you know, this is what science communication is all about when you're not an expert in the field. So hopefully I'm doing it justice Anybody who is an expert in this stuff. If you catch a mistake, let me know, but I definitely did a lot of research. Okay, moving on.

Philip Pape: 11:01

So the difference in transport between fats and carbs, right? This explains why fat takes longer to affect your blood levels and energy systems compared to carbs. It's a slower, more gradual process. On a little side tangent, I will advise clients to limit or eliminate any fat in their pre-workout to avoid this, this mechanism of slowing down digestion, because what it does is it slows down your body's absorption of protein and carbs, and so you can see how it's all interconnected. Okay, so that was a side tangent, but important to know as to why I recommend fewer fats and fewer fiber, lower fiber in your pre workout things that slow digestion.

Philip Pape: 11:38

So once your fats are in circulation, they can then be used for immediate energy needs. They're stored in fat tissue for later use or they're used for essential functions like hormone production, brain health, cell membrane integrity all the things we know that fat is important for. Your brain, in fact, is about 60% fat, and you need dietary fat for the production of hormones, including the big ones, big reproductive hormones, testosterone and estrogen right, so fat is essential, you have to consume it. Hormones, testosterone and estrogen right, so fat is essential, you have to consume it. And there are issues with people getting too low in their fat intake.

Philip Pape: 12:17

Now, an important point about fat storage because that's a lot of the things we care about is body fat storage. When you consume dietary fat, it can be stored in your fat cells with minimal processing, right, it just kind of goes right in there, and that's what makes fat storage more efficient from an energy standpoint compared to converting excess carbs or protein to fat. But this is super important. That doesn't mean that eating fat automatically makes you fat, because your body is constantly mobilizing and storing fat based on your overall energy needs. It's what your body needs, your metabolism. If you're in a calorie deficit, you're gonna burn fat for fuel, regardless of how much fat you eat. If you're in a calorie surplus, you're gonna store fat, regardless of whether it came from fat, carbs or protein, although, like I mentioned before, the conversion from carbs and protein is actually less efficient.

Philip Pape: 13:07

Different types of fats also affect your body differently. So, without going too deep into the chemistry, because I'm not even equipped to do that, here are the key distinctions between the four types of fats that you hear about, that exist and you hear talked about. Let's start with saturated fats. These are the ones solid at room temperature. They're found in animal products some plant oils, but mainly animal products and they've gotten a bad rap right because of their correlation with cardiovascular health. But moderate amounts in the context of an otherwise healthy dietary pattern are fine. And then, if you want a number, I would say no more than 10% of your calories or a third of your fats. It's a good rule of thumb. A little more than that's fine, but we're just saying that's a general ceiling.

Philip Pape: 13:50

Then we have monounsaturated fats. Those are the ones found in olive oil, avocados, nuts Most people don't argue about these. Okay, they're like everybody's like. Oh yeah, those are good, those are beneficial for heart health, and they are, they're good. Olive oil is great. Okay, I just had a whole bunch of pasta with olive oil and some chicken thighs that I meal prepped for lunch. You know, I have 3,600 calories. I'm trying to get in right now in a building phase.

Philip Pape: 14:12

Then we have polyunsaturated fats. All right, these are usually found in omega-3s, like fatty fish, flax, seeds, walnuts, and then some omega-6s, and these are the essential fats that your body cannot produce. So we definitely want to consume these polyunsaturated. Oh and, by the way, seed oils are among those and they also get a huge bad rap in the industry for no reason whatsoever. Totally unnecessary, just understand that.

Philip Pape: 14:43

And then trans fats. Now those are I'll call the quote unquote bad ones. They're found in artificially hydrogenated oils and they're actually problematic and we don't see any upsides to those and they have negative health effects. So they've been mostly banned. You're hardly going to find those. So the bottom line on fats is that they are essential nutrients. They are helpful for hormone production, brain function, nutrient absorption. And then, yes, they can be efficiently used for energy, especially, you know, the low energy activities. Walking is great form of uh movement for fat oxidation, so is the occasional sprinting, so is lifting weights and recovering and being active and moving Cardio and high intense running. Sometimes it backfires and actually causes you not to oxidize fat as well.

Philip Pape: 15:24

Keep that in mind, okay, and then we come to protein, my favorite. Well, I don't know, I think carbs are also my favorite, just because people love to hate on them and they need a little bit more love. But protein, this is the structural macro. All right, this is the bodybuilders and the lifters' favorite macro, but it's also becoming more popular among the general population, thankfully. And finally, I don't know if I mentioned this on podcast yet, but I saw a commercial for Oikos Greek yogurt during the Super Bowl, and they were. The selling point was that it had a lot of protein and it's good for muscle. I'm like, yeah, that's great, I'm glad that that is what is in our, that is what we're selling it on, and it's for a good reason, right? But protein is important for a lot more things in building muscle, which is one thing I do want to touch on because that's all we talk about sometimes is muscle.

Philip Pape: 16:14

So protein digestion that begins in your stomach. You've got hydrochloric acid, which denatures the proteins, and then there's an enzyme called pepsin that starts breaking down protein into smaller peptides. You've heard peptides right, you've heard of like injectable peptides. That's what they are they're proteins. And then this process continues past the stomach into the small intestine. More enzymes break the peptides down into the individual amino acids and then small peptide chains can be absorbed into your bloodstream. Now, unlike carbs and fats, proteins are not primarily used for energy they can be in rare circumstances but primarily the amino acids become the building blocks You've heard that before the building blocks for nearly every structural and functional component in your body Muscles, yes, but also enzymes, hormones, immune cells, hair, skin, and the list goes on and on.

Philip Pape: 17:10

So think of protein as the construction material for your body. It's constantly being used to build and repair tissues, and this is why protein is critical during periods of growth, like when you're a child, when you're an adolescent, but also recovery, like after an injury, and of course. Of course when you're trying to build muscle through resistance training, and when I say build, I also mean hold onto muscle if you are in fat loss, for example. Protein does also have unique properties that make it the favorite macro when it comes to body composition. The first one is its high thermic effect of food, the TEF. This means your body burns more calories digesting protein compared to carbs or fats. Specifically, about 20 to 30% of the calories from protein are used just in digesting and processing the protein 20 to 30%, compared to only 5 to 10% for carbs and 0 to 3% for fats, and so this higher energy cost contributes to why protein helps a lot of people with fat loss.

Philip Pape: 18:14

When they increase the protein in their diet from you know, when they double it, for example, which is very, very common Many people are far under eating protein. When you start working with me and we start tracking, you end up doubling or tripling in some cases, and what that does is it burns more calories just to digest and you start to lose weight without trying, and yet you feel full. That's key. Second, speaking of full, protein is highly satiating. It does help you feel fuller longer compared to equal calories from carbs or fats, and so this satiety effect is yet another reason higher protein diets are effective for fat loss right? They help you control your hunger signals and your calorie intake.

Philip Pape: 18:52

And then third, adequate protein intake is crucial for preserving lean mass during weight loss. Remember the key here everyone and if you've never heard this before, listen, right now we are not trying to lose weight, we are trying to lose fat, body fat and get leaner, more muscular, fitter. And if you just crash diet or you lose weight or you're on Ozempic, you just lose weight or you're not resistance training, you're not eating enough protein, you're going to lose muscle. We don't want to lose muscle, that's the wonderful thing. We want to keep on our body and have more of so protein you need adequate protein to preserve that lean mass. And so when you're in a calorie deficit and you have sufficient protein, it signals to your body to preserve the muscle tissue. It says, look, I've got the building blocks available, so I'm going to go ahead and use them, right? And then you preferentially burn what Fat for energy, which is fat is a great storage place for energy.

Philip Pape: 19:49

As for the fate of excess protein beyond what your body needs for tissue building and repair, it doesn't directly convert to muscle, right, and that'd be great if you could just keep eating unlimited protein. Eat 500 grams of protein a day and just become massively jacked. It doesn't work that way. Instead, what happens is excess amino acids can be converted to glucose through a process called gluconeogenesis, or, less efficiently, stored as fat. But the metabolic cost of this conversion process is really high, and that's another reason why high protein diets tend to be beneficial for body composition. Is it actually? If you get into this state of conversion, it burns a few more calories, but but this doesn't happen a lot. I just want to keep that in mind. There there are corner cases where this happens.

Philip Pape: 20:36

A final note on protein metabolism. Unlike carbs, which can be stored as glycogen, and fats, which can be stored in adipose tissue, your body does not have a dedicated storage form for amino acids. You either use them or lose them right Through excretion, like going to the bathroom, you know urine or they get converted to other compounds. So this is why you might hear the advice to spread protein intake throughout the day for your muscle protein synthesis. It's a slight advantage. It's not massive like we used to think. It's just a slight advantage because your body can only use so much at once for muscle protein synthesis. But recent studies have shown it's probably a lot more than we think, so don't get too hung up on. That is my point. It's a slight, slight advantage. If you want to eat all your protein in one or two meals, you can still have great results, as long as you're hitting all your protein.

Philip Pape: 21:29

Now that we understand the journey that each macro takes through our bodies and I, for one, am excited by understanding this stuff let's talk about what this means for your nutrition strategy in practice. Let's start with meal composition right. Understanding how different macros are processed helps explain why just balancing your meals tends to work really well for most people. Combining fats, proteins, fiber-rich carbs in a meal it's going to moderate your blood sugar response. You're going to have a nice amount of energy. You're going to support your muscle maintenance and your muscle growth. It's just a nice way to practice your meal planning and your meal execution, not trying to have all protein over here and all carbs over here.

Philip Pape: 22:11

Just keep things balanced. The one small exception I would say I mentioned earlier is your pre-workout. Take fats out of there and take fiber out of there and make it mostly protein and carbs. And you're deliberately doing that because you want to inject your bloodstream with carbs and actually cause a spike and use insulin for its advantage when you're lifting weights, but other than that, keep it balanced throughout the day. For example, chicken sweet potatoes right, Chickens are protein, sweet potatoes are carbs, avocados are fat, vegetables are fiber. That's just a simple example and you're going to digest it at a reasonable rate. You're not just going to have a huge blood sugar spike and you're going to have more stable energy levels. Maybe, maybe better nutrient partitioning. Maybe I'm not going to lean too much into that one, but I like balance. The other thing about balance is it makes it easy to hit your macros because from the beginning of the day, you're balancing out what you need the whole day. Well, you never fall behind on anything that makes sense. You never fall behind.

Philip Pape: 23:07

Now that's not to say some meals won't have a lot more protein or a lot more carbs. Definitely happens. You know that's fine. Some people need they need so much protein. They're like I don't want to have a lot of protein in every meal. I'm going to have a bowl of Greek yogurt in the afternoon or pre-bed snack to get my last, you know, 25 grams of protein or something. So that's meal composition.

Philip Pape: 23:25

The second one is meal timing and this is where the digestion rates affect your strategy. So, pre-workout nutrition I've touched on it twice already. I should have just waited till this section, but we want easily digestible carbs to get that jolt of glycogen in your muscles ready and available for training period. The only alternative to this is going to be eating a lot of your carbs at dinner the night before. If you train really early and for whatever reason, you can't get over the excuse not to eat, and I say it that way because vast majority of people, they just make an excuse. It's like just eat a banana and drink some whey shake, just do it. Just do it 10 minutes before you work out, it's fine. Some people, though, might have specific cases, like thyroid medication, where they just have to wait before they eat and then they want to work out, and it's like they don't want to wait an hour before they work out. So I get it.

Philip Pape: 24:15

In that case, have a bunch of carbs at night for dinner before, and I mean like a significant portion of your carbs, um. And then you want protein and carbs. So protein for the muscle, repair carbs, replenish glycogen, enhance protein uptake with the insulin. And then your pre-sleep meals Um, I like protein but, and maybe fat, but fewer carbs, right? You don't need to like jolt yourself with protein right before bed, like it used to be said, that you had to eat casein protein and get this bolus of protein and build muscle at night. No, you don't need that. But if you're going to have a snack late at night, you know protein is not a bad idea. Protein and fat. So I think, like Greek yogurt, for example, um, fewer carbs. If you need a little honey in there or something, fine, but you know the fats slow your digestion. You get sustained energy. It doesn't disrupt sleep. If, like, large carb loads could disrupt your sleep, that's really the only reason you might avoid a significant amount of carbs before bed and just measure this stuff. If you have an Oura ring or just you're tracking your sleep quality, you could tell you know over time.

Philip Pape: 25:45

No-transcript, always, always, always going to be around 0.7 to one gram per pound of, I'll say, body weight or target body weight. And I say target because if you have a significant weight to lose or gain, you could base it more off of the final weight. But anyway, 0.701 isa, nice broad range. It gets you in the ballpark. It's plenty, and most people are not there when they get started. So getting it up to that point is going to be really good for you.

Philip Pape: 26:15

Then we have carbs or no. Then we have fats I like fats. Second Fats have a minimum threshold, carbs or no. Then we have fats I like fats. Second fats have a minimum threshold. It's probably lower than you think, but I like to be safe, so I I usually peg it at 30% of your calories.

Philip Pape: 26:29

The challenge is going to be in fat loss If your calories are low. If your calories are low, you might need to be down at 25% or even 20%, some people even lower than that, and then physique competitors even lower than that, like they can go really low, which can be dangerous if you don't know what you're doing. So start at 30% and then, if you don't have a lot of calories to play with, it could always go down. If you have more calories to play with, it could go up a little bit right. Or if you just like to have more fat in your diet, like if you came from the keto world or something, and then guess what? The rest goes into carbs.

Philip Pape: 26:56

So the carbs are going to fluctuate based on your phase. If you are at maintenance or in a muscle building phase, you're going to have a ton of carbs, which is great. You need them, you want them and they're delicious. And then if you're in a fat loss phase, the carbs are going to come down. The most of any of the macros, protein stays the same Fats scale as a percentage, but then carbs are what's left, and so if you only have like 1400 calories to work with, your carbs might be a hundred grams or less, which some people are listening thinking well, that doesn't sound that low, I'm used to that. Well, that's because most of society pushes low carb today and doesn't realize that. You know, people trying to build muscle can thrive really well on two, three, four, five, 600 grams of carbs, depending on how many calories you need in a muscle building phase. All right.

Philip Pape: 27:40

So something that might surprise you about macro metabolism I always like to have a little teaser at the end here of something different that you haven't heard is that your body is adapting its metabolic pathways based on what you are regularly eating. Right, there's a name for this. It's called metabolic flexibility, and you got to be careful when you Google that term, because you'll hear some kind of crackpot theories about this, and then you'll see, the more evidence-based and the term gets thrown around kind of loosey-goosey, but it's basically the ability to switch between your energy systems and your carbs and fats for fuel. Right, people with higher flexibility, metabolic flexibility can thrive on the various macro distributions because your body's adapted to whatever fuel source is predominant. And I would say that this is really, when you train, when you're consistent with your nutrition, when you walk a lot, when you do some occasional sprinting, you play and you do things like that, your body is just fitter and better at utilizing the fuel you give it. That's the way I like to explain this, just at a high level.

Philip Pape: 28:41

Right, and you personally might thrive better on a slightly lower carb diet. Right, you're probably not going to thrive on very low. I will tell you that If you're trying to build muscle, it's almost assured you are not going to be that successful, I'm sorry, on a very low carb diet, you're just not okay. And it's not about metabolism or genetics, it's really how your metabolism has adapted over time. So if you come from the low carb world and you're listening to this podcast and you're like, well, interesting, I can eat a lot more carbs, just understand, there will be a little bit of an adaptation phase, right, and then your body will become more efficient at using whatever energy substrate that you consistently provided. Then, once you understand that, now you have the freedom to customize your whole diet, eat whatever foods you want within those guidelines of your macro, your micro, your calorie needs, and now you can have that adapt to your preferences, your lifestyle, how you like to go out to eat, your travel specific goals.

Philip Pape: 29:41

Am I going after muscle or am I going after fat loss? Rather than following a quote, unquote diet, a one size fits all thing, carnivore, keto, whatever it is, whatever extreme diet and they are extreme. People accept it. They're extreme. They're telling you to cut out a whole bunch of foods for no reason. They claim certain reasons that are not supported by science. But you don't need to do that. If you personally don't like a food or don't thrive on a food or have an allergy or an intolerance, well then that makes total sense to avoid those foods. But don't just fall for the one-size-fits-all recommendations. All right, and that is the power of understanding macrometabolism. It frees you from nutritional dogma. It gives you the knowledge to make choices that work for your unique body and goals. So let's just do a quick recap, since this was a decently long episode.

Philip Pape: 30:32

Carbs are broken down into simple sugars used for immediate energy or stored as glycogen for later use. Contrary to what you'll hear on social media, the direct conversions of carbs to fat is pretty inefficient and you don't just store carbs as fat. It all comes down to energy balance. Fats are digested more slowly, they're transported differently and they serve functions beyond energy, including hormones and brain health, and then proteins are broken down into amino acids that serve as the building blocks for virtually every structure in your body. They have a high thermic effect, they promote satiety and they're essential for preserving and building muscle.

Philip Pape: 31:08

So hopefully you understand all this a lot better than when you started, when you pushed play in the episode, and you understand why a balanced approach to nutrition works best for most people, why meal composition matters not just total calories, but the composition and the macros and then how your body adapts to different dietary patterns and even meal timing and things like that over time. And the most important takeaway again, it's not about finding the perfect macro ratio or the perfect diet. It's how your body processes the nutrients, tracking and measuring, performing and applying the knowledge of the feedback you get to create an approach that works for you, your goals, your lifestyle. That is exactly what I help people with all the time, that I'm excited to help them with, and why so many people get amazing results when they work with me in our coaching program. And that wasn't even a sales pitch for my coaching program. That was just stating a fact.

Philip Pape: 31:56

What I'm going to promote here is just something free our facebook group. If you found value in today's super deep exploration of macrometabolism, just join our Facebook group. That is where Joy asked the question. It is a supportive community. You can ask your own questions, share your experiences, connect with people, listen. One of the most successful aspects of getting a result is having accountability. All right, and of course, one of the best ways to get accountability is one-on-one coaching. The next best would be a group coaching and the next best would be a free community. So start out. Start with our wits and weights Facebook group and see what it's all about. Click the link in the show notes and I'll see you there until next time. Keep using your wits lifting those weights and remember understanding how your body works is the first step to making it work better for you. I'll talk to you next time here on the Wits and Weights Podcast.

How Cassandra Lost 11 Lbs Fat in 12 Weeks (While Building Muscle & Eating Carbs) | Ep 289

Book a FREE 15-minute Rapid Nutrition Assessment, designed to fine-tune your strategy, identify your #1 roadblock, and give you a personalized 3-step action plan in a fast-paced 15 minutes.

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Are you training hard and tracking macros but still not seeing the results you want? Do you wonder if your body is just “different” or if you’re missing a key piece of the puzzle?

I talk with my client Cassandra, who successfully lost fat and built muscle at the same time after years of slow weight gain—all while eating plenty of carbs. 

You’ll discover the exact system we used to help her break through plateaus, achieve sustainable fat loss, and develop a balanced approach to nutrition without extreme restrictions.

Today, you’ll learn all about:
02:52 - Why "doing everything right" wasn't working
04:44 - Small but critical nutrition mistakes
07:05 - Starting with a maintenance phase
11:11 - Simple lifestyle tweaks that helped
11:59 - Meal timing strategies
13:41 - The impact of walking and daily movement
14:55 - Coaching and accountability
17:29 - Cassandra’s results
22:51 - Overcoming food fears
28:55 - Mindset shift about weight trends
31:42 - From fat loss to muscle building
38:01 - Outro

Episode resources:

• Join our free Facebook group and say hello to Cassandra, plus get support, live Q&As, and accountability from others on their journey to strength, health, and fat loss

How Cassandra Lost Fat and Built Muscle While Still Eating Carbs

If you’ve been grinding away at tracking macros and hitting the gym but aren’t seeing the results you expected, you’re not alone. A lot of people feel stuck, like something’s missing or that their body just doesn’t respond the way it “should.” That’s exactly where my client Cassandra was—until she made some key changes and saw a serious transformation.

In this episode of Wits & Weights, Cassandra shares how she lost 11 pounds of fat in 12 weeks while building muscle, improving her energy, and eating plenty of carbs. Her story isn’t about some extreme crash diet or cutting out all the foods she loves. It’s about strategy, consistency, and having the right systems in place to make fat loss actually work.

The Struggle: Doing All the “Right” Things and Still Not Seeing Progress

Cassandra wasn’t new to lifting or nutrition. She was doing group strength training, working out on her own, and using Macrofactor to track her food. But despite her efforts, her body weight kept creeping up—about 10 pounds over three years.

Like a lot of people, she figured she was following the right process. She was eating high protein, lifting weights, and even tracking macros loosely. But here’s the thing: she wasn’t in a consistent deficit, and her macros weren’t optimized for her body.

“I would eat in a deficit for three days, then not for three days,” she admitted. That back-and-forth meant she wasn’t seeing the fat loss she wanted. And without the right level of accountability, it was too easy to veer off course.

What Changed? Key Adjustments That Made the Difference

Once Cassandra started coaching with me, we focused on a few critical adjustments:

1. Establishing True Maintenance Before Fat Loss

Like many people eager to cut, Cassandra had skipped the crucial step of finding her actual maintenance calories. Instead, she jumped straight into a deficit without first stabilizing her intake. That meant her calorie target wasn’t dialed in, and Macrofactor was constantly adjusting.

By spending a full month at maintenance first, she got clarity on what her body actually needed. She also realized that eating at maintenance gave her more energy, improved her workouts, and set her up for success when we transitioned to fat loss.

2. Dialing in Macros (It Wasn’t the Carbs Holding Her Back)

One of the biggest revelations for Cassandra? Her fat intake was too high.

She’d always assumed her carb intake might be the problem, but after analyzing her food logs, it became clear that excessive dietary fat was the real culprit. Once we pulled fat levels down to a reasonable range and redistributed calories more strategically, her body started responding almost immediately.

“I love fat—feta cheese, avocado—but it wasn’t as hard as I thought to scale back,” she said.

3. Structuring Nutrition Around Training for Maximum Energy

Cassandra was lifting early in the morning but eating a full meal beforehand. We adjusted her pre-workout nutrition, shifting her toward a simple protein shake before training, followed by a more substantial “second breakfast” post-workout. That change allowed her to train just as hard while making better use of her calories throughout the day.

Her meals also became more strategic—higher carb at lunch, lighter dinner—so she had energy when she needed it most.

4. Prioritizing Strength and Movement Beyond the Gym

Cassandra was already training, but we upped the intensity. She started lifting heavier, incorporated more structured progression, and even got extra support from her partner, who’s an experienced weightlifter.

Beyond the gym, she also made simple lifestyle shifts, like adding a standing desk and a treadmill desk to get more movement throughout the day. She committed to hitting a minimum of 8,000 steps per day, which had a huge impact on overall fat loss and metabolic health.

The Results: More Muscle, More Strength, and More Confidence

Over six months, Cassandra dropped 11 pounds of fat and saw a 5% reduction in body fat on her DEXA scan. Even more impressive, she gained lean muscle mass at the same time.

Beyond the numbers, she:

• Increased her strength in the gym

• Lowered her resting heart rate from the 70s to the upper 50s

• Built muscle definition to the point where people started commenting on how jacked she looked

• Felt more in control of her nutrition and lifestyle than ever before

And the best part?

She never had to cut out carbs or give up the foods she loved. She simply learned how to fit them into a system that worked for her.

What’s Next? A Shift to Muscle Building

Now that she’s successfully leaned out, Cassandra is thinking ahead. The next phase of her journey? A lean gain—a structured muscle-building phase where she’ll add muscle while keeping fat gain minimal.

This is where things get exciting. After spending time in a deficit, moving into a slight surplus will allow her to push harder in the gym, recover better, and see even more physique improvements. If you’ve never bulked before, it’s a game-changer for long-term results.

Takeaways for Your Own Fat Loss and Muscle Growth

Cassandra’s story proves that sustainable fat loss isn’t about restriction—it’s about strategy.

If you feel stuck, here are three key takeaways you can apply today:

1. Find your true maintenance before cutting—it’s worth the time investment.

2. Optimize your macros for you—don’t just assume you need to slash carbs. Bonus: use MacroFactor to make this super easy.

3. Lean on support and accountability—whether that’s a coach, a community, or a training partner, the right guidance makes all the difference.

And if you’re ready to take your own results to the next level, consider coaching to help you cut through the noise and actually implement a plan that works.

👩‍💻 Book a FREE 15-Minute Rapid Nutrition Assessment:
https://witsandweights.com/free-call

🎓 Get your first challenge FREE (plus 40% off for life) in Wits & Weights Physique University (WWPU) using code POD40

👥 Join our Facebook community for live Q&As & support

👋 Let's connect! Ask a question, get my FREE newsletter, or find me on Instagram

📱 Try MacroFactor for free with code WITSANDWEIGHTS.

🏋️‍♀️ Download Boostcamp for free for evidence-based workout programs

🫙 Get 20% off Legion supplements with code WITSpod

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Transcript

Philip Pape: 0:01

If you've been tracking macros and following a training plan, but still struggling to see results and you're starting to wonder am I missing something or is my body just different, this episode is for you. Today, I'm talking with my client, cassandra, who successfully lost fat and built muscle at the same time after years of creeping body weight, all while eating plenty of carbs as well. You'll discover the exact system we use together to finally break through and help her achieve sustainable fat loss without extreme restrictions. Whether you're just getting started, or maybe you're feeling stuck despite doing all the right things, today's chat with Cassandra will show you what's possible when you have the right strategy and support. Welcome to Wits and Weights, the show that helps you build a strong, healthy physique using evidence, engineering and efficiency.

Philip Pape: 0:55

I'm your host, philip Pape, and today we're doing something different Instead of our usual guest interview. I am really excited to introduce you to one of my clients, cassandra. Cassandra has achieved remarkable results using the systems and strategies we talk about on this show losing significant body fat while maintaining and even building muscle and, yes, eating carbs. Most importantly, she's developed a sustainable approach that fits her lifestyle, not the other way around. Today, you're going to learn the exact process. She followed the mindset shifts that made the difference and how you can apply these lessons to your own journey. Cassandra, thank you so much for taking the time to chat with me today.

Cassandra: 1:35

Thanks for having me. I'm excited to chat with you.

Philip Pape: 1:38

So I just want to start with a little background. We don't have to do your whole life story. I know that's not what you wanted to come on here for, but I want to understand just where you're coming from. A little bit about yourself. That and then what led you to seek nutrition coaching in the first place?

Cassandra: 1:52

Yeah, so I'm a 40 something female. I live in Florida. I have always, as my adult life, been committed to healthy living, working out, but that's been a long progress to learn about what is right for me, what changes my body. So when I came to you, I was not out of shape at all. I was doing group strength training classes. I mean actual strength training barbell. I was going to the gym on my own but I had noticed I was very slowly putting on weight, like maybe 10 pounds over about three years. It was just really slowly creeping on there. And I was listening to your podcast. I was loosely following macro factor but not seeing changes, not positive changes, and I really just needed accountability. I needed someone to help me just stay on the path, and that's when I reached out to you.

Philip Pape: 2:43

Cool. So I like how you said. You know you weren't quote unquote out of shape, but the weight was creeping on. And you know I like it when people hear real stories from real people, who. It's not like you're a total beginner, you know 300 pounds overweight and like don't know what to do at all. It's that you've taken the action, you've done things, you've gotten in shape, you're going to the gym. You even started using Macrofactor listening to this show, and I encourage people to suck up the education and try things for yourself and experiment, but still something was going on and you were like I need to figure it out. So was that the biggest challenge for you then was just, you had tried different things and there was some mystery to be solved, or what do you perceive as the number one thing that you said? No, I really have to have coaching, I really have to have that accountability. What is that?

Cassandra: 3:32

Yeah, you know I felt like I was doing things right, but I can look back and sort of pinpoint where I wasn't. You know I would eat a deficit for three days but then not for three days. And so for me, I think I just I needed the accountability. I needed someone that I knew was going to be looking at my nutrition every two weeks when you evaluate it and holding me accountable and calling me out if I didn't follow it. And for me, just knowing that I don't want to say pressure, but just someone there was really going to help me.

Philip Pape: 3:59

Yeah, I think support is underrated, right? I mean, coaches have coaches too. I've got a lot of mentors and coaches and the more I've been in this space, the more I want to immediately go and find somebody that knows more than me to help me out. So it sounds like there was frustration with even if you kind of knew the process, there was still something preventing you from really sticking to it and you're like just let me lean on someone a little bit, take off some of the, I guess, mental stress. Maybe Was there an element of that to it.

Cassandra: 4:24

Oh, yeah, yeah, absolutely yeah.

Philip Pape: 4:27

And then you kind of talked about what you were already trying. What do you think about? The approach you were using wasn't working, and the way I want kind of the listener to perceive this is, let's say, they said look like Cassandra, I've done those things and I know I need to be in a calorie deficit or whatever it is, and I know they're going to work, so I'm just going to do it on my own. I hear Cassandra, but I'm not like her. You know I can do it on my own, like I want to understand where that is, because I've been there too. Like, try to do it on my own, thinking, you know I got this.

Cassandra: 4:58

Yeah, so there were. Just I think there were things I wasn't doing them quite right, like I was hitting my protein and maybe the calories of my fats were really high and my carbs were really high, and this is something you called out when I started to go into the deficit. Um, you sort of called out that my carbs and fats were a little excessive. So we cut back on that and I started to see, um, a little bit of difference in my weight going down.

Philip Pape: 5:24

Cool and sometimes it is the little things. It's like boom revelation on day one and as a coach, I love that because I don't want to say it makes my job easy. It more makes it. It allows the years of times of seeing this with other clients allows me to bring that to you and say, look, go through my Rolodex People know what a Rolodex is anymore. Go through your Rolodex in your head and say, okay, this is the thing that might be helpful and if it doesn't work, we go to the next strategy. It's funny you mentioned fats and carbs, because you know how people have a fear of carbs and often say, well, I think my carbs are just too high. And a lot of times you get into the data you're like, no, it's actually the fats that are too high and that's what you're missing, because you keep trying to cut carbs but somehow you keep gaining weight.

Cassandra: 6:05

Yeah, and I love fat. You know I had a very high fat diet. You know I love my feta, cheese and avocado, but it hasn't been that hard to scale back. And you know we started with the maintenance phase, which I had skipped. That when I was trying to do things on my own, I didn't really think it was important and that was silly because it's very important. Own I didn't really think it was important and that was silly because it's very important. It was really helpful to learn like what my body feels like at maintenance and to also be tracking my foods and thinking, okay, well, I can cut this when I go into a deficit, I can live without that feta, and so that was really helpful for me and that was how I really learned to sort of trim the carbs and the fats once we got into that deficit phase.

Philip Pape: 6:45

Yeah, and it's great to have those foods you love and like try to figure out how you get them in. You said something interesting there about maintenance. So did you say you tried to do maintenance before we worked together and like tried to shortcut it? Or even when we started you were impatient to get through it? What's the situation?

Cassandra: 7:06

No. So when I listened to your podcast before I worked with you, you would mention it's important to learn your maintenance and you would always start your clients at maintenance. And I never did that. As soon as I went into Macrofactor, I downloaded it. I immediately went into a deficit and I think that was the wrong thing to do, because Macrofactor needs to learn your maintenance to be able to do a deficit or add weight. And I didn't really realize that and I think I wasted a lot of time watching it adjust the figures trying to figure out where I should be. So we had us at maintenance for about a month and it was just very helpful. It taught me to be very intentional about what I was eating and just learning how my body feels on the right amount of calories, and so, yeah, I'm really glad we did that together.

Philip Pape: 7:45

I love how you frame that and, yeah, I recall it took about a month together and for anyone listening, I usually recommend a month to two. But I'll tell you clients who are dedicated, like you were, who did the work and, honestly, the best coaching experience you're going to have a relationship. If you hire coaches, you've got to do the work too, and that way you're going to accelerate the process together. But a month is a reasonable amount of time. The shortest I've ever done it is maybe two weeks, and that's only because someone had already kind of been in maintenance on their own, coming into me to working with me. And then you said it's really about feeling and understanding your body, which is crucial because fat loss is a big change, it's a big stressor. It's a big change, it's a big stressor, it's a big, you know, a different variable affecting your body. It's totally unlike not being in fat loss, right? So maybe just color for people. What does that mean? By getting to understand?

Cassandra: 8:37

your body across all the facets that you learned during that period. Yeah, so how much energy I had was really interesting to familiarize myself with by eating a bait net, because you know when you are working with a client you ask them at every. I had was really interesting to familiarize myself with white eating and maintenance, because when you are working with a client, you ask them at every check-in how are your energy levels? And my energy levels were awesome. I was just killing it at the gym, killing it with my lifts, and it just taught me when I'm eating right and not going over and not going under, I'm doing what my body needs. I can do really well in the gym and have energy for my day, and I think that was really important to learn. And so, comparatively, when we did go into the deficit, I did feel those energy levels drop a little bit, of course, but I knew my body well enough to sort of understand what was happening.

Philip Pape: 9:21

So that brings up another interesting question about when you talk about energy and feeling this sense of, I guess, thriving during this period, because a lot of people, especially women who've been chronically dieting, almost don't know what that feels like, and so I've had clients who started the maintenance phase and then they decide they don't even want to do fat loss because they just love how it feels. Now that brings up the question did your goal sort of shift in your head, both the superficial goal of like X number of fat pounds to lose or what have you, and then the deeper goals you had. Did that shift at all? From the time Like you first hired me, you were all excited going home Like I'm gonna lose 20 pounds or whatever, to after the maintenance phase and we started fat loss, did you have a slightly different perception of what your goal was.

Cassandra: 10:04

No, not really. I definitely wanted to get that extra weight off. Yeah, so no, no for me. I had my eye on the prize.

Philip Pape: 10:13

All right, fine, fine. So see, audience, that's what's called. I didn't prepare Cassandra ahead of time for any of these questions and I don't know what the answer is going to be. So, as much as I try to lead her to an uncertain answer, she was honest with that. She knew what she wanted and, honestly, working with you the whole time, I knew you were the type of client that I would love to work with, because you're ready to go, you're focused. So then that gets to our approach, because people are like well, what did she do? I know she wanted to get fat loss and she was going to the gym and like, if you want to work with me, you should already be lifting. That's what I'm telling anybody who listens. Otherwise, listen to the podcast, listen to this case study with Cassandra and go, start lifting weights and reach out for help. But once we started working together, what were some of the big changes in your approach to nutrition and even to training?

Cassandra: 11:01

Yeah, I made a lot of changes, big and small. So I had been doing group strength training classes, as I mentioned, and then going to the gym on my own a couple times a week, but I definitely hit a plateau with that. So for me I did take on a personal trainer, which I know is not feasible for everyone, but that helped my partners and great weightlifters. So I asked him to start helping me more in the gym and that kind of pushed me outside of my comfort zone and definitely it was sore every day. I also made some smaller changes. Like I work remotely but I didn't have a standing desk. So I got a standing desk and a desk treadmill and I make myself take 10 minute breaks throughout the day to get on that treadmill and I hit my step goals that you wanted us to hit minimum 8,000 steps a day. So I was really good at that.

Cassandra: 11:51

And then nutrition it's it adjusted quite a bit, especially in the deficit phase. You know I was I'm a morning workout person at am and I was. I believe that I had to have a meal in my stomach before I worked out and working with you I learned to adjust my foods more strategically. So I started with the protein shake and then I worked out and I was fine and then I went on to what I call second breakfast afterwards, where I feel my body a bit better and then that kind of kept me full so I could eat lunch later and I would do a higher carb lunch and then a lighter dinner and that took a while to sort of tweak that in a way that benefited me and my schedule and my workout. But learning how to eat strategically and adjust my foods around exercise helped a ton.

Philip Pape: 12:39

That's really good, because sometimes people simplify these things, like you should have protein and carbs before a workout, and I say that a lot to people who are just not eating at all. In your case, we had to listen to your body, look at your biofeedback which, by the way, every time you checked in with me, you would share okay, here's my digestion, my soreness, my energy, my sleep, et cetera, and we can kind of see okay, this is trending one way or the other, or I'm struggling with this or I'm feeling wiped out in the gym. Let's strategize over meal timing, not necessarily what you're eating or how much you're eating. It's sometimes when. You also talked about the personal training and having a partner who's into weightlifting. So, again, that's great support, which is why it's awesome when you can be with others, even if it's not an intimate partner, but a friend, a training partner, somebody you work out with to kind of push each other and have that same environment. And, by the way, again for folks listening, there's a whole spectrum of how you get support. So notice how Cassandra had a personal trainer.

Philip Pape: 13:41

I have a lot of clients who have their own personal trainers. I have clients who lean on me for programming and feedback. And I have clients who are kind of in between, where they might program for themselves or I might give them a template, and then they're pretty self-sufficient and then they reach out for form checks. So it kind of depends on what you need and I think that's a great thing. And then the standing desk, the desk chart on the other side. I love that you mentioned walking, because I think when you and I started together, I definitely talked about the importance of it. I don't know how forceful I was, because now I'm even more like we've got to get your steps up, because I'm even more of an advocate of the importance for fat loss and for metabolic health. Well, like, what are your thoughts on that topic in general, about steps, oh, I'm a huge advocate of walking and getting steps.

Cassandra: 14:21

You know, I used to be a runner back in my 30s and my knees really hate me now for it and I just wish I had known that. You know, walking just has so many great qualities and like I can go for a good 30 minute walk outside and just feel like I've had the best workout. I encourage everyone to do it. It's just really good. Just good for the body.

Philip Pape: 14:43

A hundred percent no, and no excuses too. Right, I think anybody can find a way. I mean, you did the stand-up desk and the desk treadmill. Others might pace around on their meetings and others might have to go for walks and I know you have a dog too. That probably helps, right.

Cassandra: 14:57

Yes, forces me outside, for sure.

Philip Pape: 15:00

It's a great reason to have a dog. Okay, I guess another thing that comes to mind then is how did this whole thing feel? Comes to mind then is like, how did this whole thing feel compared to what you did before Cause I know we talked before, we recorded about a lot of this is really how you felt as a person, or what you were doing, the confidence, the mindset. You know what I mean? Just generally, how did it feel? Did it feel more frictionless, did it? You know, tell us about that.

Cassandra: 15:25

Yeah, it felt way more frictionless. I'm a very structured person and I felt like working with you really helps me keep a structure around everything trapping my nutrition and my workouts and for me that's very motivating. I like to feel like my house is in order. When it is, I'm in order and I feel good. So, yeah, it felt really good and then when I started seeing progress, like that's just boosted my confidence and it was just awesome, awesome to see those changes. And you know, I have never done progress photos before because I don't think anyone really likes to do those, but doing them with you, I'm really glad it forced me and I could see that difference. I mean, you don't see it in yourself day to day, but when you pull a photo three months apart, it's really great to be like oh, oh, wait, yeah, there's a lot less fat there. So I appreciated that that was incorporated into our process.

Philip Pape: 16:17

Yeah, it is. Interestingly, it's a very delicate subject and you know there are definitely clients who don't even want to give me the pictures to begin with and I don't pressure them because I'm like look, ultimately it is for you and you and I were talking before. We recorded that I hardly ever use before and after photos, even if they're fantastic, only because I don't think that's the message we're trying to convey is just that it's about the physical appearance, even though hey side bonus, yeah, you're going to look much better because you're healthier and you're fitter. So it's an interesting topic. Tell clients about how that experience was. How did I react? How did I use your photos during the process? Because it's usually pretty minimal, but maybe you can tell us.

Cassandra: 16:56

It's very minimal In the feedback videos, I think twice in the past five months you actively kind of pulled up the photos and pointed out what you, the difference you saw, which I appreciate it, because you you were pointing out, like muscular growth that I, like I was more focused on, like oh yeah, my waist is trimmer, but you're like no, I can see the muscle in your arms, you know, like it just it definitely helped me to see your perspective of them. You didn't focus on them a whole lot, like you're not analyzing them every week, so people are nervous about it.

Philip Pape: 17:28

Yeah, exactly Because because it's a very it's sensitive and I know people have. I mean, body image is a very personal thing. So I think I'm like, if it were me, if I ever had a coach share photos you know, I almost don't want to send the photos, but you that, that's what it is. It's not like every week. I'm like look how much skinnier or fatter you are, and look at this and that, look at your butt and your hips, and it's not like that at all. It's very simple, objective, as needed. Okay. So then, speaking of results, then what are some of the wins you got? So we've worked together for about six months and you had a month of maintenance and then fat loss phase. Maybe just walk us through what the periodization looked like and then fat loss phase.

Cassandra: 18:09

Maybe just walk us through what the periodization looked like. Yeah, so in total I'm down about 11 pounds and I get quarterly DEXA scans which, for those who don't know, you lay flat. It scans you. It's very unforgiving. You're laying flat. It sends you an outline of your body, your fat, your lean body mass, your bone.

Cassandra: 18:24

My body fat decreased by 5% and my lean mass went up a little bit. So that's, that's the muscle that I've I've put on. And there's also other changes that you notice, like my resting heart rate decreased by from like 70s to upper 50s, and that's amazing. I've never had anything below 70 for resting heart rate, so that was really great to see. And my clothes fit better. I look better, I mean there's just so many changes and I want to point out that my transformation wasn't dramatic. Like 10 pounds might not sound like to a lot of people, but a lot, but for me, I was having a really hard time getting that off and I didn't have a lot of weight to lose. So for me, I was having a really hard time getting that off and I didn't have a lot of weight to lose.

Philip Pape: 19:10

So for me it was uh, it was transformational, yeah, and the fact that you added muscle. I think we had a part of our conversation at one point was like you think you're good, like, in other words, you were super happy with the muscle. At that point you weren't even as concerned about losing any more fat, is that right? I seem to recall that at one point you were like I don't know, it seemed like some sort of shift in your mindset around the body composition.

Cassandra: 19:31

Yeah, yeah, I was going to say there was a mindset shift where I I really started to just become proud of the muscle that I had and it was showing and the strength I was building in the gym. And you know I'm I mentioned um, I used to do these group classes and I stepped back from those to focus on my other training. But I did go back recently and I hadn't seen my peers in a few months and someone said Cassandra is looking jacked and there was like this ripple of approvals and agreements and it just felt really good to hear that and to see that. So I think at some point, like I knew I needed to lose the fat to see the muscle. But that started to happen and I just started to feel really proud of the muscle that I was building.

Philip Pape: 20:14

Yeah, I mean you were doing both at the same time, so it definitely even accelerated the process. I remember one day you sent me a photo you were doing lat, pull downs or something, a photo of your back and, by the way, I love backs in general because that's something that I personally have a decent back, or some people struggle with that and others struggle with other parts of their physique. And yeah, she's just looking jacked. You could just see the Christmas tree down her spine and her delts, and that's the kind of stuff I'm talking about when I comment on physique. It's just good to see the development across all of that and it was exciting because you, just out of the blue, are like look, how excited I am at this.

Philip Pape: 20:47

And then the external validation. You know there's nothing wrong with that if you're not outwardly just seeking that. So the fact that you just showed up and they're like, hey, you look jagged, it's like, okay, great, you know I'm doing the right thing. So then, speaking of sets of physical, speaking of that, then the mindset, or your lifestyle. You know we try to work around your lifestyle, like with my clients, we try to work around what you're doing, even though there's change involved. So what's different both mindset and lifestyle since we started?

Cassandra: 21:20

So let's talk about lifestyle first. You know one of the areas which was a sticky point and still is challenging, as I travel for work once or twice a quarter. We also have a fifth wheel we take out, we travel personally and so learning to keep my nutrition and check while on the road was hard and we had to work through that. And I think the what we kind of agreed upon was going to maintenance when I do that and so rather than keeping in a deficit because that's really hard to do when you're eating out and buying food to go so I just kind of committed to that and looking at restaurant nutrition meals ahead of traveling and finding something that sort of fit my nutritional guidelines and getting that and just doing my best to not go out from that. So that helped a ton. But also one of the reasons I wanted to work with you is I didn't feel like I had to cut out things that I enjoy in my life. I love ice cream, I love nothing but cakes, like I don't want it to be able to eat those and I could and it's what it's not like every day. But like you know, I was still could make room for that in my life and I was still seeing weight loss. So I think that was something. I really appreciate it and also just helped me with my mindset, sort of realize like I can still enjoy my life.

Cassandra: 22:38

I also pretty much cut out alcohol, which has been awesome, and you did a podcast on this but I allowed myself to start drinking diet sodas Again. I used to demonize those like I'm gonna get cancer, but I allowed myself to start drinking diet sodas Again. I used to demonize those like I'm gonna get cancer, but actually I really like diet soda and kind of like I gave that to myself and it sort of kept my sweet tooth at bay and I think was a good, you know, certainly better than the alcohol and helped me maintain my goals. So there was just definitely like just some lifestyle changes that I took, you know, a little bit of time to incorporate. And then mindset, that's a harder one, but I feel like once you see your body changing, you're willing to just sort of do what you need to do, to just keep going with it. You know, seeing those changes helped a ton and just helped me really commit to our program.

Philip Pape: 23:31

I hope everybody takes that message in right now, because we've talked about the answer to motivation is not discipline and willpower, it's taking action and getting a result and then you get motivated. It's like a flywheel, and I see it over and over and over again and I feel really bad for folks who don't take that step, or if they take the step, maybe it's the wrong step or they don't have the support or education and even the things you just listed off guarding travel and alcohol and diet soda and everything and that it took you a little time to incorporate it. Those are all key messages here, because you took a little step here, a little step here, literally more steps, another step over here, and they just sort of built on themselves in a I don't want to say easy cause. It took effort, but like a totally doable way, even when you're in fat loss.

Philip Pape: 24:20

And what I don't want this podcast to be is like let's go through every single strategy that Cassandra used so that you can use it too. Through every single strategy that Cassandra used so that you can use it too. It's the principles of, you know, making it work around your lifestyle. So I really love that and I always like to ask this because you've learned a lot. You probably learned even more than you realize. You've learned, right, if you just like, sat down and wrote it out. But I always like this thought experiment If you went back to yourself before we got started, what would you tell that person? That would even accelerate it further.

Cassandra: 24:52

Um, that's a good one.

Philip Pape: 24:56

And you can even go back further in time if that makes it easier.

Cassandra: 25:00

I don't know. I think I would tell her to just not be afraid to um, tweak things and adjust things and be what she needed to do to reach her goals. I mean, I definitely was forced to do that with you. I force sounds like a bad thing, but it's not like I. Just you really challenged me to sort of think about things differently and it really helped me achieve my goals. So that would probably be my suggestion to her six months ago.

Philip Pape: 25:26

That's great, yeah, and I know you did that, so I guess what she would be doing is doing it even faster and quicker and sooner, maybe.

Heather: 25:33

Hello, my name is Heather and I am a client of Philip Pace.

Heather: 25:37

Just six days after I started this cut, my family and I were in a 7.9 magnitude earthquake here in Adana, turkey.

Heather: 25:44

As I tried to process the stress and trauma, my first instinct was to say, oh, you've been through something hard, this is not a good time. But instead I reached out to my coach and he got me under the bar that day and he helped me keep my macros that day, and not only did I realize that I was doing something fantastic for my body, but I realized that I was doing something fantastic for my mind and that it was going to help me keep the mental clarity that I was going to need to get my family through what really has been a very difficult two months. Here I am on the other side of eight weeks, got my kids through all the things that we have been through, and I weigh 12 pounds less than I did, and I got a new PR on my bench press. I have a long way to go and there are still things that I really want to accomplish, but now I know that I can and I'm really grateful. Thank you, philip.

Philip Pape: 26:33

There's something called a forcing function, right In math or engineering or whatever I always pull these things out of my butt where they use the word force can be a positive and what you're talking about in that something that didn't exist, now it exists. It's a force, it's a push right, it's like Newton's, whatever law. It's like you can't help but be like pushed along. It's like somebody's here pushing you can't. No, no, no, no, no, okay, no, I'm going to do it. And then, combined with all this tracking and everything, okay, oh, I know what I want to ask you. Speaking of the tracking, you said you're a structured person and appreciated that. What if somebody's listening and says I'm not that kind of person, I'm kind of willy-nilly, I don't like data, I don't like to weigh myself. I'm just curious what your thoughts are. Could this process work for them, or do you think it's like a certain type of person needs to work with a certain type of coach?

Cassandra: 27:20

I think I'm someone who loves the data and entering things so much it's hard for me to understand people who might not be natural to that.

Cassandra: 27:28

You know, I would really encourage them to just commit themselves to tracking for maybe a week and get it like a sense and make sure that they understand, like what three ounces of meat looks like or what 80 grams of raspberries looks like, and then you know, like maybe they could sort of not track, but I I just think that it's just such a benefit and hold you so accountable and it's really eyeopening. Um and calories out of very quickly and if you're not tracking those, it's really, really easy to go over.

Philip Pape: 27:58

So you're saying it's easier to track and have confidence in what you're doing and know what you're doing than to not track and just be totally lost. Yes, kind of what you're saying, yeah.

Cassandra: 28:08

And also the tracking. It doesn't take a lot of time out of your day. So every morning when I make my protein shake and I pull out macro factor and I add in what I think I'm going to eat for the day and it takes me two minutes and macro factor is really good at like following your algorithm of food, I guess, and suggesting what you think you're going to put in at that time. It's usually right at the top. I mean, it takes me two minutes and then, as I make the meal, I weigh it Again. It takes me five seconds and I just adjust it and it's there. I know some people just aren't inclined to that, but it really is very simple.

Philip Pape: 28:48

And it's just a habit that you have to make for yourself. Yeah, totally agree. I think you just got to do it. That was your advice is like just try it out, because you might be. You know, people say that they don't like something until they do it, and then whoa, I used to be that way, just about macros in general. Like I tried it years ago, the app was terrible, so it was slow, too much friction, I didn't know what to do with the number, I didn't know even what my targets were, and so of course it didn't work. But if it works for you and you get the result, then you'll see how amazing something like that could be. So, all right, is there anything else about like nutrition science or, let's say, your metabolism or maybe something specific to women that could be helpful? Somebody listening that you learned through this process? I don't. I'm not trying to lead you to any specific answer, just you know how we track your expenditure and we talk about stress and things like anything come to mind.

Cassandra: 29:35

Can we talk about weight trends?

Philip Pape: 29:37

Sure, let's do it. One of my favorite topics.

Cassandra: 29:40

Yes, you again.

Cassandra: 29:41

You did a podcast on this.

Cassandra: 29:42

But, um, you know, I think for people, especially women, the number on the scale carries so much weight and it took me a while to understand that the weight trend is far more important than what's on the scale day to day.

Cassandra: 29:57

And you know, when we're working with you, we weigh in every day, tracking a macro factor, and there are some days where I would get really frustrated by what I saw on the scale and I would pull up macro factor and look at the weight trend and there's a light purple line in the background that I think is your actual weight and that thing is all over the place. It's up, down, up down. But then the weight trend the solid dark purple line was always going down, always. So even during those periods where I was plateauing and just feeling really frustrated, I'd look at macro factor and it would sort of be my little ally encouraging me because that weight trend was always going down and it just takes time and over time you get there. So that helped me in sort of not putting so much value on the scale weight every day.

Philip Pape: 30:46

A lot of people need to hear that they really do. And that principle applies to lots of data points, right? Because you go to the gym one day and your lifts aren't quite what they are normally, you don't just give up and say like that's a reflection of your entire training program, it's just quote, unquote bad day. It's not even a bad day. It's a day that you learn from Same thing the. You know your calorie level. Like did I ever get on you for like being 50 calories off or even hundreds of calories off If you had a bad week? I never hopefully never berated you for that. It was more of here's data, right.

Cassandra: 31:18

Yeah, no, exactly. I mean sometimes you say, oh, a couple of days where you were a little high, but um, it's. You know, I never felt bad about it. I always felt comfortable. Communicating with you of, like, I had to travel or work was very stressful and I just kind of dress ate a little bit. I always felt very comfortable in our check-ins putting that in, so you sort of knew what was going on in my life and I never felt judged at all. I always felt comfortable yeah.

Philip Pape: 31:46

Yeah, and Cassandra's talking about the times when I like numbers attract me. So when I look at the data, I'll see like highs and lows and I'll highlight them. Sometimes I use yellow or maybe red. I like in my head, try to avoid red because it looks like bad and I don't mean to say that, but I'd be like, yeah, here we have some outliers, let's talk about what might've happened. And you know, go look on those days and see what happened and there's data for you. So, all right, you know results wise, a lot of mindset stuff, physique improvement, you're stronger, you lost fat. Where are we now and what's next for you? And we could even use this as a little bit of coaching on air, if you want. Where do we want to go next?

Cassandra: 32:22

Yeah, so I had a very stressful travel week last week, and while I tried to eat at maintenance it was a little over. Normally the scale is a little high and then it kind of, just you know, goes right back down and it hasn't done that yet, and so I feel like we should still be in a deficit for a little bit longer. But kind of once I get to a range where I'm feeling really good, I think the focus for me is going to be muscle building. You talked about doing something like a I can't remember what you called it like a light gain or something like that Lean gain. Yes, that's it. Maybe going into that next.

Philip Pape: 32:57

Yeah, and just so folks know what Cassandra's talking about, for me, a lean gain is still meaningful gain. It's not like if you Google lean gain right now and say I want to see what she's talking about, you're going to see a lot of conflicting advice, just like you will with everything when you Google it, and maybe you're not even fully aware, cassandra, what I would recommend to you. But it's like you're going to gain some pounds back. You know what I mean. You're going to gain some pounds back over a six or nine month period, but a lot of that's going to be muscle and for hit it hard, you're going to experience a level of ability to push like you've never had before. I can't even explain it to you until you get there. But all this stuff you're talking about using the results to give you motivation there's a whole world you haven't experienced. I'm so excited for you and I only say that because I personally, every time I go through a bulk, relearn or learn again the potential that the human body has, and I think it accelerates when you're not only well-fed but super well-fed, like when you are in that surplus.

Philip Pape: 33:54

Most people listening are like what do you mean? I'm just going to gain weight and get fat. That's the opposite of what we're talking about. We're talking about training three, four, five days a week, really hard, on a structured program, and you're feeding your body all the fuel it needs and then some. So I like your approach, since you have had a whole mentally healthy approach on the fat loss and you know how to do it. Another few pounds for the psychology of it. But also, when you stop, you know you're going to bump back up and I know you told this to me yourself in a check-in. You're going to probably pop up like maybe three pounds or something where I don't know. I think you're sitting at like 127 now or something. Right, I hope you don't mind that I said that. And so let's say you get down to 125, you'll pop back up to maybe 128 once you go back to maintenance, because of the fluid, which also scares a lot of people when they're not in control of this process, because it feels like I'm getting all the weight back right. So don't be afraid of that.

Philip Pape: 34:49

And then, just like before fat loss, we normalize at maintenance before muscle gain, and that's more just to let the numbers even out so that you don't over undershoot during a muscle gain, or else you get really frustrated initially and then really it's just step on the pedal for at least six months at. For you, cassandra, I'd probably recommend I'm going to say 0.3% or 0.4% body weight a week, so we don't have to do the math on air, but like whatever that comes out to be times, 26 weeks is that six months? I guess you're probably going to look at like around the 10 pound mark, which sounds insane because you just lost almost that much, but well over half of that should be muscle Right. And then then you cut five or 10 pounds and you'll be sitting five pounds heavier than you are right now and all of that's muscle right. So all that muscle that's popping out all over on you right now, it's just going to be more of that is what it's going to happen. How does that sound?

Cassandra: 35:51

Yeah, no, that sounds, that sounds good yeah.

Philip Pape: 35:54

Okay, yeah, yeah, we can map that out. But I mean, do you have any thoughts or fears or like questions about gaining?

Cassandra: 36:00

I mean, you know, some of the non-scale wins is just like being able to fit into clothes that I haven't been able to fit into and button up pants that didn't button up, and so I don't know, if we do that, am I not going to be able to fit in those clothes for a while and then it goes back down, or like how that impacts my you know size, I guess.

Philip Pape: 36:21

So the honest answers? I don't know, because it's going to depend on how your body responds to the measurements that affect your clothes. And why I say it that way is you know, you're not going to gain as much fat as you had. You're going to gain a percentage of the weight as fat, but you might gain it all in your midsection, where somebody else gains it somewhere else. Do you know what I'm saying? Yeah, so the distribution, the chances are. However, you won't, and what will happen is you're it almost feel like your muscles outpacing your fat and then you'll get to a point where you might feel a little uncomfortable or like it's starting to push into that old pant size a little bit. But you'll have been measuring your waist the whole time and you'll kind of know that. But, like, the waist size will creep up, but also the muscle size will creep up. And it's this fine dance Don't throw away your old clothes. But this is dance don't throw away your old clothes. But this is also why I generally prefer doing bulks through the winter months.

Philip Pape: 37:14

So we should talk about an advanced strategy where maybe you just hold on to all your progress through the summer and just have fun during beach season at your lean weight and then go for the bulk. There's different ways to do it. Nothing's going to change visually for the first couple months. You know how it goes. Just like with fat loss. It takes a while and then it'll start to all of a sudden happen and for some people, cassandra, really, they can go quite a while on a gain, because what happens is the muscle that they're adding almost makes up for the fat, in that it gets distributed more aesthetically and also kind of pushes out your skin and fat. You know it kind of just pushes it out. You have a little more surface area to use, so it doesn't actually look fat and it's almost healthier to have that little extra layer of fat too. So, but a lot of interesting things about the process that you're going to learn.

Philip Pape: 38:03

Okay, all right. So last thing to wrap this up I know there's some people watching who are in the same spot you were a few months ago. Maybe they even have a lot more progress to go. Maybe they're not training consistently yet, whatever, and they're struggling in some way. Maybe it's a loose fat. Maybe they've tried macros and it hasn't worked for them. What would you say to them, like if they're on the fence about what to do. What would you say to them?

Cassandra: 38:25

what to do. What would you say to them?

Philip Pape: 38:27

Well, I'd tell them to hire you as a coach.

Cassandra: 38:36

Sure, I appreciate that. Yeah, no, it's helped to have someone else being a second set of eyes in your life. I mean, we talked about the accountability, but you know, I've spent a lot of time the past 10 years or so learning about nutrition and weightlifting and I still learned so much more in my process with you that really helped me achieve my goals. And I think it just if it's really important to you to dial it in having a coach to help you is essential and it's an investment, but it's an investment in yourself, your health, your future, so I would encourage them to do that.

Philip Pape: 39:05

Awesome, awesome, awesome. So you heard it from Cassandra and, by the way, we have multiple ways to support people, all the way from free things like our Facebook group, through lower budget, all the way to one-on-one coaching. So I'm not trying to exclude people if you need the help, so keep that in mind. Is there anything you wish I'd asked or a topic you wanted to bring up that I didn't bring up?

Cassandra: 39:25

Just on what you said. You know you have a Facebook group. That's really good. I don't post in there a lot, but I'm really impressed by sort of the quality of the questions and the posts. So for people who might not be ready to hire a coach, I'd say start there. That's where I started before I decided to hire you as a coach and it definitely influenced my decision to go with you and I also learned a lot from that group as well. So that's my final thought. I think we've kind of covered most everything that I've learned. It's been a really great process.

Philip Pape: 39:56

Well, it's been amazing talking to you. If anybody wants to reach out to you, since you're in the Facebook group, they should just join the Facebook group and then they'll find you in there. We'll include a link to that in the show notes. And also, I was thinking the other way. I don't think you and I took advantage. Did you do the free call with me beginning, I forget? Are you just like signed up?

Cassandra: 40:13

No, I emailed you and then we, we went and we just took off because you're ready, you're ready.

Philip Pape: 40:17

But if you're hesitant, you're listening. I do do a like a 15 minute call all the time with folks, and that's not a sales pitch, that's and again, you didn't experience that, but it's a lot like 15 minutes of this conversation we just had basically just chatting about what your goals are and then what the next steps. Anyway, thank you again for sharing your story. I really appreciate you doing this, cassandra. I hope people are super inspired about what they can achieve and I'm really excited to see what's next for you.

Cassandra: 40:41

Well, thank you for having me. It's been such a fun process the past five months and it was really great to chat with you about it.

Philip Pape: 40:48

You're an amazing client, Cassandra An amazing person as well. Thanks for coming on.

Cassandra: 40:54

Thank you so much.

What Your HRV Numbers Actually Mean (Resonance Theory) | Ep 288

Submit a question for the podcast (and get a personal reply plus a shoutout). Just go to witsandweights.com/question

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Confused about what those HRV numbers mean on your wearable device? Or if they even matter?

Learn how Resonance Theory, the same science behind musical instruments and bridge collapses, reveals why focusing only on heart rate variability (HRV) numbers misses the bigger picture of what's happening in your body.

Main Takeaways:

• Your absolute HRV number matters less than changes from your baseline

• 3 key factors affect your baseline HRV

• Daily factors like sleep, alcohol, and stress can push you away from baseline

• Looking for patterns over 2-3 weeks is more valuable than daily numbers

• Understanding your body's natural frequencies helps optimize training and recovery

Episode Mentioned:

• Interview with Dr. Peter Martone [Episode ###]

Timestamps: 

2:01 - What is resonance theory?
4:08 - Interpreting HRV numbers and using data effectively
10:43 - Tips to improve HRV 

Remember, to submit your question for a future episode, go to  witsandweights.com/question and you'll get a personal reply from me plus a shoutout on the show!

What Your HRV Numbers Really Mean and How to Use Them to Improve Recovery

Heart Rate Variability (HRV) is one of those health metrics that pops up on your fitness tracker, but what does it actually tell you? You might see numbers jump from 25 to 65 overnight and hear that “higher is better,” but is that really true?

In this article, we break down what HRV really measures, why the absolute number doesn’t matter as much as trends, and how resonance theory explains your body’s natural rhythms. By the end of this article, you’ll know exactly how to use HRV to optimize your training, recovery, and overall well-being.

What Is HRV and Why Should You Care?

HRV measures the small variations in time between your heartbeats. Unlike a steady drumbeat, your heart isn’t perfectly rhythmic—it adapts to what’s happening inside and outside your body.

A higher HRV generally means your body is in a more relaxed, adaptive state (parasympathetic nervous system is dominant). A lower HRV suggests higher stress, fatigue, or poor recovery (sympathetic nervous system is dominant).

But here’s the key: HRV is highly individual. What’s low for one person might be completely normal for another. Instead of focusing on an arbitrary “good” number, the real value comes from tracking your personal trends over time.

Resonance Theory and Why Your Body Functions Like a Tuning Fork

To really understand HRV, let’s talk about resonance theory.

In engineering, resonance happens when something vibrates at its natural frequency. Think about a tuning fork that hums at a precise pitch or a child swinging higher when pushed at the right timing.

Your body operates on natural rhythms, too:

• Your heart rate beats around 60 times per minute at rest.

• Your breathing rate is about 12-20 breaths per minute.

• Your sleep cycles follow a predictable pattern.

When these systems sync up, your body operates at peak efficiency. But when stress, poor sleep, overtraining, or bad nutrition throw things out of sync, HRV takes a hit.

What Your HRV Numbers Actually Mean

HRV scores range from below 20 to over 200 milliseconds, and here’s what really affects them:

1. Age

HRV tends to decrease with age, but it’s not just about getting older. The bigger factor is lifestyle—lower muscle mass, less movement, and more stress cause the decline, not just aging itself.

2. Fitness Level

Better cardiovascular health usually means a higher HRV, but you don’t need to run marathons to improve it. Strength training, walking, and general movement all contribute to a well-functioning nervous system.

3. Genetics

Some people are just wired to have higher HRV than others. That’s why your personal baseline matters more than any universal standard.

How to Interpret HRV Trends

Instead of obsessing over daily changes, look for patterns over weeks and months.

• A sudden drop (20% or more) – You might be under-recovered due to poor sleep, alcohol, stress, or a tough workout.

• A consistent downward trend – Overtraining or chronic stress could be wearing you down. Time to reassess training volume or lifestyle factors.

• A gradual increase – Your recovery habits are working, and you’re adapting well to training.

• Extreme daily swings – Your body’s rhythms might be out of sync due to inconsistent sleep, erratic training, or stress.

HRV is best tracked overnight with wearables like the Oura Ring, Whoop, or Garmin since that’s when external variables (movement, food, etc.) don’t interfere as much.

How to Use HRV to Optimize Training and Recovery

Breathe Your Way to a Better HRV

Deep breathing exercises like box breathing (inhale 4 sec, hold 4 sec, exhale 4 sec, hold 4 sec) can help regulate HRV by calming your nervous system. The key is slow, controlled breaths—around 6 breaths per minute tends to match the body's natural rhythm.

Train Smarter, Not Just Harder

HRV trends can help guide training intensity, but don’t let them dictate every session. Instead, use them as one piece of the recovery puzzle. If HRV is tanking consistently, it’s worth adjusting your volume, sleep, or stress management.

Sleep and Nutrition Matter More Than You Think

Poor sleep wrecks HRV. Alcohol, late meals, and inconsistent bedtimes disrupt your body’s natural rhythms, leading to lower HRV and worse recovery. If you want a stable, higher HRV, sleep should be your number one priority.

The Bottom Line

HRV is a useful tool, but it’s just that—a tool.

Instead of chasing a higher number, focus on creating balance in your body through sleep, strength training, daily movement, and stress management. Use HRV to guide recovery adjustments, but don’t overthink it.

By understanding resonance theory and tracking your HRV trends over time, you can make smarter training and recovery decisions to keep your body performing at its best.

👩‍💻 Book a FREE 15-Minute Rapid Nutrition Assessment:
https://witsandweights.com/free-call

👥 Join our Facebook community for live Q&As & support

👋 Let's connect! Ask a question, get my FREE newsletter, or find me on Instagram

📱 Try MacroFactor for free with code WITSANDWEIGHTS.

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🫙 Get 20% off Legion supplements with code WITSpod

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Transcript

Philip Pape: 0:01

you've seen those HRV numbers pop up on your fitness tracker or aura ring 25 one day, 65 the next. Maybe you've heard higher is better, but you're wondering what the numbers really mean for your health and performance. Today I am getting into why HRV metrics only tell half the story. Using a principle called resonance theory the same science that explains why bridges collapse and musical instruments sing You'll discover how your body's natural rhythms affect everything from stress to recovery. By the end of this episode, you'll understand not just what your HRV numbers mean, but how to actually use them to optimize your training, sleep and overall well-being.

Philip Pape: 0:52

Welcome to Wits and Weights, the show that helps you build a strong, healthy physique using evidence, engineering and efficiency. I'm your host, Philip Pape, and today we're uncovering what heart rate variability, or HRV, really tells us about our bodies by looking at the science of resonance. I want to give a special shout out to Aubrey in our Wits and Weights Physique University, who asked a question related to HRV and she said quote I am not clear on what good, normal, bad numbers might be for HRV. So not only will we answer that question today, but you'll learn why focusing solely on those numbers might be for HRV. So not only will we answer that question today, but you'll learn why focusing solely on those numbers might be missing the bigger picture of what's happening in your body. Before we dig into HRV and resonance theory, I want to let you know that if you have questions like Aubrey did, and you're not already in one of our communities and you want to have a topic covered on the show, you can head over to witsandweightscom slash question witsandweightscom slash question link in the show notes as well, where you can submit your question to me. You'll get a personal reply. I will answer your question, usually within a couple days max, and then you'll get featured on a future episode and I'll even give you a shout out if you prefer.

Philip Pape: 2:01

All right, so I want to start with a concept of resonance as the background and in the world of engineering, resonance occurs when a system vibrates at its natural frequency. Now, every physical object has a natural frequency. That's the rate at which it wants to oscillate when it's disturbed. So if you strike a tuning fork and then it vibrates at its specific frequency, it's going to create a pure musical note, right? People can use that to tune instruments, for example, If you're pushing a child on a swing at just the right timing and then they go higher and higher. This harmonious timing creates what we call resonance. The opposite happens when frequencies clash right, A marching army is going to break step when they cross a bridge because their synchronized footsteps could match the bridge's natural frequency and cause it to collapse. I don't know if you knew that this isn't just theoretical. It actually happened to the Broughton Suspension Bridge. I think I'd say it pronounced Broughton Broughton in 1831, when 74 soldiers marched across it. Broughton Broughton in 1831, when 74 soldiers marched across it. And you may know the famous Tacoma Bridge that tore apart as well. Kind of an example of frequencies gone wrong.

Philip Pape: 3:13

And this is where it gets interesting when it comes to health and fitness. Your body operates on natural frequencies as well. Your heart beats around 60 times a minute at rest. These are averages, okay. You breathe about 12 to 20 times a minute. These are not random numbers. They are your body's natural oscillations, and when these systems are synchronized, they create what engineers would call constructive interference, which means it amplifies their effects. When they're fighting each other, you get destructive interference, and so this is why HRV numbers alone like let's be honest just about any metric by itself isn't going to tell the full story. If you have an HRV of 50, it might be fantastic for you but very concerning for someone else, and so it's not about hitting a magic number right. In this case at least, it's about how well your body systems are resonating together.

Philip Pape: 4:08

So I want to address Aubrey's question directly about interpreting HRV numbers. I don't want to remain theoretical here. For you guys, your HRV can range anywhere from below 20 to over 200 milliseconds. The crucial thing here that I've already alluded to is that these numbers are highly individual. I have clients with average HRVs in the 30s who are incredibly fit, and others with numbers in the hundreds who might struggle with recovery. So think of HRV kind of like your body's check engine light as opposed to your speedometer right, the absolute number matters less than how it changes from your baseline. So when you understand something like resonance theory, this makes sense. Just like the tuning fork has its specific frequency, your body has its natural rhythm. So three key things affect this natural rhythm your baseline HRV.

Philip Pape: 5:02

The first one is age. Hrv generally decreases as you get older. Okay, and like many things when it comes to age, my big caveat here is a lot of things that happen as we age are actually tied to other variables like a loss of muscle mass, a loss of fitness, lower activity, higher stress, and we need to make sure to separate the two. But generally, if you live the average typical american's lifestyle, which is fairly sedentary not at all what we are going for here a lot of these things will just simply get worse with age. But we're trying to defy age, aren't we anyway? That's age. The second of the three is your fitness level, so it usually increases with cardiovascular fitness. Okay, and remember, cardiovascular fitness isn't just from cardio. In fact, it's predominantly because you are generally active, you walk a lot, you move and you lift weights. It's not just because you are a runner or endurance athlete. In fact, for many people like that, they actually have issues with stress.

Philip Pape: 6:00

Keeping that in mind, Number three is your genetics, and that's kind of your starting point, and that's why the absolute number isn't as important as you seeing your trend over time and then making the changes to nudge it in the direction you want. Now, daily factors can then push you away from your baseline and this is where it's kind of a chicken and egg. It's like do you want to react to the HRV or do you simply want to recognize that what you do is going to affect your HRV and change your behaviors? I mean, I would argue they all work together, but just keeping that in mind, poor sleep is the first one, and big one, that is going to knock your systems out of sync and going to cause your HIV to drop. Alcohol huge disruptor to your natural frequency, Anybody who has an aura ring. If you eat too late or you have too much alcohol, you're going to see your HRV be worse the next day or overnight. High stress that creates dissonance in your autonomic nervous system and then even things like room temperature can affect how well these resonate together. It's why we talk about having a really calm, dark, cool environment for sleep.

Philip Pape: 7:04

So if you want to actually use the information because I know a lot of you you see it and you're like okay, that's great, what do I do? Instead of chasing just a higher number, which was the chicken and egg thing I mentioned I want you to look for patterns. Okay, Patterns First. You're going to establish your baseline. So you've got to. You've got to be tracking your HIV somehow with some sort of wearable over about two to three weeks and you notice that many things that we track when it comes to human body. It's like you've got to do it for at least two to three weeks. It just takes time to understand these things. Um, so, two to three weeks of your normal routine, your normal living. You're going to track your HRV during sleep, because that's when external factors are adding noise to the system, adding extra variables.

Philip Pape: 7:44

Hrv during sleep is a really reliable indicator from a day-to-day trend, and then you're going to look for significant deviations, For example, a sudden drop of 20% or more below your baseline. That usually says that you have excessive stress or poor recovery. That's a sudden drop. And do we always have to be worried about that? Eh, I mean, if you know why, if you, if you, if you, you know, got drunk last night, then that could explain it. Or if you had like an extra 2000 calories late at night, right, and you know what causes it again, chicken and egg it's like, okay, I know that happened, move on, Um, but it's good information to know why that the HRV dropped is because your stress level just went up because of what you just did. So it's a good way to correlate those things. That's a sudden drop. Now a consistent downward trend over several weeks. That could indicate, for example, that your training load is too high. Maybe you're overtraining and you're getting fatigued, assuming nothing else is pushing it up like some new source of chronic stress or some anomalous situation like travel. But again, that's why it's good to understand, it's good to take these measurements when you're in your normal routine so that you can isolate variables.

Philip Pape: 8:58

Multiple days of elevated HRV actually could be a good thing. It could indicate that you're adapting really well to training. It could also be that you just improved your sleep, Like I just started using a new pillow sleeping on my back. And I'm monitoring my HRV. It's only been a week. I've seen it go up, I've seen it go down. I don't know if the trend has is is has moved in one direction or not yet, Cause you can't tell just from a few data points, just like can't with scale weight or anything else. And then if, however, if, however, you have large day-to-day swings, so we're talking about huge ups and downs. Okay, and this is different than scale weight, because the scale weight, that's actually pretty normal With HRV it could mean that your body's natural rhythms are being disrupted somehow and that itself, even though it may not deviate to a certain value.

Philip Pape: 9:43

The fact that it's fluctuating so much could be a red flag. So, going back to resonance theory, where this becomes practical, and remember the analogy of pushing the kid on the swing just at the right time, well, you can kind of work with your body's natural frequency to optimize your HRV and if, for those of you who caught my episode with Dr Peter Martoni, he actually talked about the fact that if your HRV is higher and you're adapting well and handling stress well, it also could represent a more distinct gap between your parasympathetic and sympathetic nervous systems. There's a healthy separation and distinction between the two. They're not overlapping and conflicting with each other. So it kind of goes with this whole frequency resonance thing where we don't want them to clash, we want them to actually be more in sync and not interfering with each other. So if you want to optimize your HRV, a lot of this has to do with stress, but it's also recovery and training. It's the things that you're doing in between the recovery.

Philip Pape: 10:43

So, breathing practices you know we'll get talked about a lot, but they're they're actually kind of underrated. I think even just taking 30 or 60 seconds to stop and breathe it could be very helpful. Um, people with anxiety, whether it's chronic or acute bouts of anxiety, find that breathing practices are extremely helpful because it forces you to become mindful and it also makes your body feel safe. It feels like, hey, there's not a threat here, because I'm able to focus on breathing like this. How would that even happen if I was under threat? Therefore, activate the parasympathetic nervous system and relax. And it's like six breaths per minute tends to match your cardiovascular resonant frequency. So there is this theory that breathing in sync with your heart rate can be helpful.

Philip Pape: 11:30

Now, don't overthink it. This could stress you out. Just using a typical like box breathing technique, chances are your heart itself will also match your breathing, so it kind of works that way. There's also your training. So some people are actually using the aura ring data to schedule their workouts when they know the HRV is at or above baseline.

Philip Pape: 11:51

Now the problem, the only problem I have with this one is like, if you wait till the day of and you wake up and you're like, oh, my HRV is good today, Now I'm going to train, I'm not, as I'm not a big fan of that, because I'd rather you have a training schedule that is preplanned and sometimes, when your HRV isn't great. You can still train really well and actually you might need the training to kind of get you out of the funk, so to speak, and help you out. Um, it's just more of the intense training where you might be dealing with things that are exacerbating your existing fatigue. I think it's good to pay attention. And if your HRV is like totally shot because you just like whatever you did last night was not pretty normal routine, I mean yes, then you've got to consider seriously whether it's going to be most effective to train.

Philip Pape: 12:31

But for a lot of people I'll tell you what just going by feel is not always the best indicator of how effectively you're going to train or whether it's good for you. I'm sorry to say so. I usually recommend people just get in the gym, warm up, see how you feel and, you know, modify the lifts if you need to like, if low back fatigue is an issue or whatnot, but don't necessarily let your HRV tell you what to do. And then recovery protocols as well. Hrv is a good indicator of how you're recovering and so if you are pushing or backing off, or you're in fat loss or you're in a gaining phase, it's kind of nice to see the patterns and correlate them with how hard you're pushing and how much you're recovering, you might find that like an extra training day in between your training weeks, like two days off instead of one day off, for example, is exactly what you need to get your HRV to have a much better trend over time. But it's gonna take a while to kind of figure that out.

Philip Pape: 13:29

So I guess my point with this whole episode is to not really overthink HRV and use it as more of a lagging indicator of the stuff you're doing. Maybe it'll give you some surprise insights. A lot of times it's not really surprising why it's lower. But if you're trying to tweak something to improve recovery or your training, adaptation or stress, it's great to have a baseline and then see like three weeks later oh yes, it actually improved. So it is likely that what I did helped me. Again, the only caveat there is if it didn't improve markedly, that doesn't mean it's not beneficial. Whatever you're doing, it could take longer to reveal itself through your HRV, or it may not really reveal itself through your HRV, and that's why I don't want you to put too much stock in this one number.

Philip Pape: 14:15

All right, so tying this all together, this principle of resonance. It doesn't just explain HRV. It actually it reveals why certain practices feel almost magical. All right, so I mentioned box breathing. That is a technique used by Navy SEALs and most people think it works because you're you know, quote unquote calming down. Right, You're calming down, but there's actually a lot more to it. There's science behind it, because when you breathe in for four seconds, you hold for four, out for four and hold for four. You are creating a 12-second cycle and that is five breaths per minute. That is actually remarkably close to the resonant frequency of six breaths per minute I mentioned earlier. So I kind of buried the lead back then.

Philip Pape: 14:59

And then I recall that I had a note on this and wanted to share why that, um, that system, why there could be some uh magic behind this, behind the mathematics of our bodies and our heart rate and our breathing. I mean it's pretty cool, I mean it almost sounds woo, woo, right, but it really is mathematical if you think about it, Um, and then you're literally like tuning your body, like an instrument, bringing your whole system into harmony. And that's why some people do get really great results from breathing work, Um, but others don't, because you, your resonant frequency might not match up with that breathing, and so that is something to think about. In other words, try box breathing and if you can experiment with different numbers of seconds, you may find something that's closer to your resonant frequency. Cool stuff, Whether you buy into it or not, it doesn't hurt to breathe and to relax, guys.

Philip Pape: 15:51

Okay, as we wrap up, I want to recap the key points so you don't forget all this. Okay, HRV, resonance theory. Your absolute HRV number matters far less than how it changes from your baseline. Remember that, Like a tuning fork, your body has natural frequencies that work best when in harmony. If you can understand the patterns through both HRV, through your breathing, through your training, recovery, all of your health practices, it's just one more thing in the toolbox to help you improve and optimize the way you live your life. And then simple practices like the controlled breathing can sometimes help you even find your resonant frequency. Isn't that cool? All right, the beauty of viewing HRV through the lens of this theory, through resonance theory, is it transforms something that just seems like this random, complex number into potentially an intuitive tool. You know, you don't have to obsess over the number, Just learn to work with your body's natural rhythms and then the numbers will follow. All right, If you have questions about today's episode or any other health or fitness or nutrition topic you want me to cover on the show, head over to witsandweightscom slash question.

Philip Pape: 16:56

Witsandweightscom slash question. I'll throw a link in the show notes and then your question might and I'll say might, but almost most certainly will be featured in a future episode. I mean, I need a lot of topics, folks. I never run out of episodes to put topics into. So today we answered Aubrey's question. Yours can be in a future episode. Go to witsandweightscom slash question. All right, until next time, keep using your wits lifting those weights and remember, just like a well-tuned instrument, your body performs best when all systems are in harmony. I'll talk to you next time here on the Wits and Weights Podcast.

Should You Lose Those Last 5-10 Pounds? (Nutrition & Training Audit) | Ep 287

To book your own FREE 15-minute Rapid Nutrition Assessment (not a sales pitch) and have me personally audit your training and fat loss approach, visit https://witsandweights.com/free-call

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Trying to lose those final 5-10 pounds but feeling stuck?

In this episode, I share a real live recording of a 15-minute Rapid Nutrition Assessment with Libby, who wasn't sure if she should continue losing weight for fat loss... and together we discovered a better path forward.

You'll hear how shifting your mindset to body composition (not scale weight) might be exactly what you need to finally achieve the lean, strong physique you want.

Main Takeaways:

• Why continually pursuing weight loss isn't always the answer to achieve your ideal physique

• How to transition from a fat loss phase and keep your progress

• The importance of training frequency, steps, and proper nutrition

• Why gaining weight strategically can lead to better long-term body composition results

Episode Resources:

• Try MacroFactor for free with code WITSANDWEIGHTS

• Episode related to the fear of gaining too much fat - Why I’m Getting Fluffy Before I Get Jacked

Should You Lose Those Last 5-10 Pounds or Shift Your Focus?

For many lifters, the idea of hitting a specific scale weight becomes an obsession—especially when they’re down to those last stubborn 5-10 pounds. But is losing more weight actually the right goal?

In this article, we’re breaking down a real coaching conversation where I told my client Libby to do the exact opposite of what she expected: gain weight instead of losing it. If you’re stuck chasing an arbitrary scale number but still feel like something’s missing, this might be the shift you need to finally get the strong, lean physique you’re after.

You’ve tracked your food, hit your macros, trained consistently, and lost weight. But now you’re sitting at a lower weight than you’ve been in years, and something feels off. You don’t necessarily want to be lighter—you just want to look leaner, stronger, and more defined.

That’s exactly where Libby was when she booked a 15-minute Rapid Nutrition Assessment with me. She thought she needed to lose five more pounds, but what she really needed was a new approach.

The Shift From Fat Loss to Muscle Gain

Step 1: Understanding That Weight Loss Isn’t the Goal Anymore

When we dug into Libby’s real goal, it wasn’t about the scale. She wanted to change her physique, add definition, and feel stronger.

Her first breakthrough? Realizing that chasing a lower number on the scale wasn’t the answer.

➡ Instead of "losing weight," the focus shifted to "building muscle."

This is a key moment for many lifters who’ve been in a deficit for months (or years). The lean, athletic look they want isn’t going to come from eating less, but from fueling muscle growth and embracing a building phase.

Step 2: The 3-Part Plan for Lean Muscle Gain

Once we identified that a muscle-building phase was the next logical step, I gave her a clear roadmap to follow.

1. Reverse Out of the Deficit and Hit Maintenance

• Instead of staying in a caloric deficit, she would increase her calories to maintenance for a few weeks.

• This helps reset metabolic function and ensures her body is primed for muscle growth.

• Key strategy: Jump straight to maintenance instead of slowly increasing calories (reverse dieting is unnecessary).

2. Lean Gaining Phase (3-4 Months of Strategic Bulk)

• After stabilizing at maintenance, she’d enter a small surplus (~0.3-0.4% body weight gain per week).

• Focus: Strength training progression and hitting enough protein (~0.8-1g per pound of body weight).

• The mindset shift: This phase is about building muscle and embracing the number on the scale going up (because that’s what muscle does).

3. Mini-Cut to Fine-Tune the Physique

• Since she had a deadline (summer), she wanted to feel leaner by July.

• Plan: A short 6-8 week cut to trim excess fat while keeping the newly built muscle.

• Key metric: Body composition (waist measurements, muscle retention) over scale weight.

Common Fears About Gaining Weight (and How to Handle Them)

It’s normal to feel hesitant about intentionally gaining weight. But building muscle is the only way to look more defined. Here’s how to reframe the process:

✅ "I’ll get fluffy." – A small, controlled surplus won’t make you fat. Fat gain is minimal if your surplus is within 200-300 calories.

✅ "I’ll lose my progress." – You’re not “losing” progress, you’re evolving it. Muscle takes time, and this is the next phase of long-term success.

✅ "I don’t want to eat that much." – You don’t need to stuff yourself. Increase meal frequency, add liquid calories (milk, shakes), and choose denser foods (nuts, whole eggs, ribeye).

✅ "Won’t I gain muscle in maintenance?" – Not significantly. Without a caloric surplus, muscle gain is very slow or nonexistent beyond the newbie stage.

Gaining Might Be the Missing Piece

If you’re stuck chasing those last few pounds, ask yourself this:

👉 Do I actually need to lose more weight, or do I need to gain muscle?

For many, shifting from fat loss mode to muscle-building mode is the key to finally achieving the physique they want.

👩‍💻 Book a FREE 15-Minute Rapid Nutrition Assessment:
https://witsandweights.com/free-call

👥 Join our Facebook community for live Q&As & support

👋 Let's connect! Ask a question, get my FREE newsletter, or find me on Instagram

📱 Try MacroFactor for free with code WITSANDWEIGHTS.

🏋️‍♀️ Download Boostcamp for free for evidence-based workout programs

🫙 Get 20% off Legion supplements with code WITSpod

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Transcript

Philip Pape: 0:02

Have you been stuck in the cycle of trying to lose those last 5-10 pounds, but something just doesn't feel right. Your workouts are there, you're tracking your food, but the results don't match your effort. Today, I'm sharing a recent coaching call where I told a client to do the exact opposite of what you might expect gain weight. You'll hear why this approach could be exactly what you need too. Whether you are a former cardio junkie turned lifter, a busy mom or dad juggling fitness with family, or just tired of chasing that arbitrary scale weight, this episode reveals how shifting your mindset about weight gain might be the key to finally achieving the lean, strong physique you're after. Welcome to Wits and Weights, the show that helps you build a strong, healthy physique using evidence, engineering and efficiency. I'm your host, Philip Pape, and I want you to picture this. You've already lost some weight, some fat, through tracking your food, lifting weights, eating your protein. The scale has moved, but now you're stuck. You think maybe I need to lose five to 10 more pounds, but deep down, you're wondering if that's really the best way to go. You're pretty happy where you are, even though there's a little more fat to lose, but you also know that you want to improve your physique. That is exactly what happened during a recent 15-minute rapid nutrition assessment call that I had with Libby. I'm going to record more of these now going forward so you can hear what it's like to have a conversation with me and get some coaching on these calls. What started as a conversation about potentially losing the last few pounds or maybe going back to maintenance, turned into shifting your mindset toward gaining weight and building muscle, and in today's episode I'm going to share what happened during that call. I'm going to just play the recording for you and why this mindset shift about gaining weight could be what you need for your own transformation. As you listen to the rationale and the process and how this is done Before we get into it, if you're feeling stuck with your nutrition or training, if you want the same kind of clarity and direction Libby gets after you listen to this book a free 15-minute rapid nutrition assessment with me.

Philip Pape: 2:14

It is not a sales pitch at all. You will hear this exactly today in the recording. Just click the link in the show notes, go to witsandweightscom, click the big button at the top or click the free call link. This is a focused, fast-paced strategy session where we identify your biggest roadblock, and then I give you a three-step action plan to overcome it. All right, enough of that.

Philip Pape: 2:33

Let's get into today's story about why sometimes the best way forward is to flip your approach. So I know you gave me a little bit of information when you signed up for this and you had mentioned, uh, your goal weight, your body composition. You've gotten to a certain point and you're wondering what to do next and really the purpose of this call. It's only 15 minutes, right, it's pretty fast paced. I want to get a fairly clear picture of where you're at, what's holding you back, what the next steps could look like, Um, and then really help you narrow it on one thing and give you a few steps to get there. So, with that said, what is the main reason you booked the call?

Libby: 3:08

Sure, so I am, I'd say, a few months into my new healthcare journey just learning about macros and protein and the value of strength training. I was always a pretty healthy-ish person, I worked out, I did all the things, but then I guess this month I just started to learn more about the macros, about intermittent fasting. I was searching in podcasts and I was like using keywords, and so that's how you popped up and then I just started listening to a bunch of your episodes and I felt like they really helped me like educate myself and just really really add to my knowledge base. And so I guess, like if, to just like kind of like set the stage super fast. So I'm 42, have three kids, again like more or less, you know, healthy. I'm at the.

Libby: 3:59

I used to be like more of a cardio person and then it's, you know, I learned that like weight training is really important. So I guess you know, what I wanted to say today is to tell you kind of like what I'm doing nutrition wise, what I'm doing fitness wise, and just kind of get your assessment on like where I should go from here. But essentially, like I'd say, probably in the summer I was about 10 pounds heavier than I am today, and five, six. I was about 150 pounds. Let's call it I wanted. My goal was like. I was like I want to get to 145. That would be awesome.

Philip Pape: 4:32

I mean, I'm a foodie, I really like food, I like to eat.

Libby: 4:33

I don't overeat but I enjoy it. I don't want to live a life of deprivation, I don't want to be in a diet, but I I was like, okay, if I could get to 145, this would just be great. And I started, you know, upping my protein a whole bunch, learning how to do that. I started intermittent fasting, but like baby fast, like just don't eat after dinner and the next time I eat is morning, that's really all it is. But that also helped me and I just found that I think, probably especially because of the protein, that over the past few months, like the weight has that weight that I held onto there kind of just went up. Like I just lost the weight. I didn't even feel like it was a huge effort and then actually I went past that 145 and now I'm at like 140. And so this is like an interesting thing for me because like I haven't been this weight probably since, like maybe almost having my first child, which is now he's turning 11 next week and I'm like I don't think my weight at this. My goal doesn't have to be weight anymore. Like I just don't actually like I feel healthy, I feel like I look like I feel good how I look, and so I'm like, okay, weight doesn't have to be the goal. But I am, of course, like I'm holding on to some excess fat, like it's in the stomach area. I've kind of always held like I'm not large, but I've always held some excess weight in my stomach area, in my thighs, and I'm like, okay, I think this is a body composition change I'm looking for, so I don't need the scale weight to move, I just want to add muscle, right, convert the fat to muscle. And so first it was the eating, it was like the adding the proteins.

Libby: 6:06

I'm using macro factor because of you. I used your link. Thank you so much for that. I think macro factor doesn't. But the thing is this now I'm weightlifting a lot more. So I don't think macro factor likes the fact that, like I put in that my goal now was 135, because again, I just don't even know what to use as my goal. Maybe my goal should just be maintained, I don't know. But it just keeps kind of cutting my calories down and I'm not. I'm not hungry, I'm okay. I just like don't know how much more I wanted to take me down Because, again, I'm weightlifting and so, if anything, I think maybe the number on the scale is actually going to go up a little bit maybe.

Libby: 6:43

And so that's the thing. So, nutrition-wise, that's kind of like what I'm keeping tabs on there and then working out-wise. I go to this amazing gym here we strength train. It's hypertrophy. They're like OCD on form. They have their eyes on you. I'm doing all kinds of things with better form than I've ever done in my life before. So I do that twice a week. I do Pilates once a week and then I'm trying to just then find a way to get hit in once or twice on my own or in a class and just like get my heart rate up, because I feel like I should have a little bit of that, okay.

Philip Pape: 7:20

I'm letting you talk because you're saying so many things that I want, if people hear this, that you've already leveled up and I was going to ask you, like, what does your training look like? How are you tracking? Are you eating more protein? So you even have a mindset of, okay, it's not all about the scale. So I love that. It sounds like obviously you'd listen to the podcast. What were you? What keywords were you searching?

Libby: 7:40

by the way, when you think I was searching like macro. I was searching protein. Okay, I was probably also stretching like strength training or like weightlifting.

Philip Pape: 7:49

Okay, cool. So, um, just just to summarize, right, you've gone through part of the journey. You've lost some fat I'll say, you know, not just weight. You've lost some fat. You've been training, you're eating, you're doing a lot of the right things, Right, and now you're wondering what to do next. Uh, in terms of not only your goal, but like which direction you want to go. So I was going to say, like, are you chasing fat loss? Are you chasing muscle? Are you chasing performance? Like what is the real thing? If you dug deep, where you want to be like a year from now, do you care at all about the scale anymore? It sounds like you're moving mentally away from that. In which case, have you ever gained weight? Have you ever intentionally gained to build muscle?

Libby: 8:26

So I know I listened to your episode about like. You know, sometimes it's not right to be like in a cut and you should do the gain. So the answer is yeah. I mean now I've done a whole bunch of months of like doing this cut and I'm like, well, maybe I shouldn't actually like, or even maybe I should just be eating at maintain so that I can like really build muscle. But yeah, I mean, that's what I'm looking for. I'm really looking to like convert the fat to muscle. That's like my main. Yeah, right now, yeah.

Philip Pape: 8:51

And I know. And what we mean right, of course, is is lose fat, build muscle at the same time. And when you mentioned a macro factor giving you lower and lower calories, that's because your expenditure has dropped Correct In the app. You've seen it drop. Now it could drop. It could drop for good reasons. It could drop because you're gaining muscle and losing fat already and therefore the scale isn't moving as fast as it would if you were only losing fat and Maca Factor says oh well, if you're eating this amount of calories and you're not losing as fast, we think you are burning fewer calories. In reality you're not. You're just kind of it doesn't know that you're adding muscle.

Philip Pape: 9:28

I see that all the time with clients. It looks like a plateau, but then you measure your waist and your measurements. How are you measuring? Are you? Are you taking circumference measurements?

Libby: 9:35

Yes, so I just started like I literally three weeks like I literally have taken two measurements. Now because, again because you cause you were like why didn't you start measuring?

Philip Pape: 9:45

So I started doing, do you, do you like? Just very simply like, like your clothes, how they fit, like, do they fit Does is your waist smaller, like things like that, even without the measurements, can you tell over this time?

Libby: 9:56

Yeah, I mean well, yeah, I mean I'm comparing myself at this point to, like, let's say, August or September. So, yes, definitely a definite difference. And people, I mean also the biggest thing is that I'm like getting it from. I'm getting positive affirmation from other people.

Philip Pape: 10:15

Awesome. And then, internally, what kind of affirmation do you want? And by what I mean by that is are you wanting to be? Are you wanting to be stronger? Are you wanting to be? Is there a athletic or performance related goal you have? Like, I'm just curious, beyond just physique, if there's anything specific you're going for.

Libby: 10:32

Well, I do actually this is kind of funny to say this, but um, I've never been able to do like a real pushup off my knees, cool Okay. And I really like to be able to just crank out some pushups. I'm just not there. I mean, I'm just not there yet, you know.

Philip Pape: 10:45

Okay, perfect, so awesome. That is a strength goal. Pin that and put that up on your wall or wherever, and make that a goal of yours. Because then, as you think about your training, your cardio, the mix of how you move because I know you mentioned twice a week training, once a week Pilates and then some HIIT Definitely have some specialization in there toward the pushup and, of course, if you need resources on that, let me know.

Philip Pape: 11:11

Um, a lot, of, a lot of women will want to get their first chin up, for example. Right, so there's a progression you can get there, um, but that that's a, that's a fun way to drive your need to gain weight so that you, when you start doing it, libby, you're not getting too concerned about the fat you might be gaining or the muscle, because that's the biggest fear. So I mean, based on what you're saying, I think the only thing really holding you back from like explosive performance and being super strong and what, um, what? Nikki Sims she's actually giving me the podcast from Barba Logic. She calls it thriving and strength. Right, thriving and strength is the gaining uh for muscle. So I think, if you're open to it, that a six to nine month building phase could be really solid for you if you do it at a conservative rate, since you're already tracking with macro factor. I mean, how does that sound?

Libby: 11:58

before I get into any details on that, I mean it obviously like sounds a little scary to me because you're just like you know, you're like I've made all this progress and like now is it real? Like what am I going to see? But like I guess what I could do is, instead of tell macro factor that I want to lose, I can just tell it I want to maintain right, and then it will anyway just up my calories and I could just try eating at that maintain level.

Libby: 12:22

Like it's funny because I am maintaining right now, which is why he doesn't like that I'm not losing. But maybe I just tell it I don't want to lose and then it will up me, would that be?

Philip Pape: 12:31

Yeah. So if I were to like, let's say, let's say you were a client, I never worked with you before we said our goal is to build muscle, I would definitely, I would definitely spend a month or two of maintenance to let things normalize.

Philip Pape: 12:41

And then I would go into a surplus, but you don't want to just be at maintenance long-term. If you're going to do this right, and since you're currently in a cutting phase, I would definitely set it to maintain for three to four weeks, just so you can let the calories come up. When you do that, try to overshoot the calories. A mistake a lot of people make is they stay in an unintentional diet. You've probably heard of reverse dieting out in the world. I don't like that term. I don't know if you've ever heard me say I don't like reverse.

Philip Pape: 13:09

Reverse dieting is when you just gradually increase calories to try to get back to maintenance. Well, since you're tracking with Macrofactor, you know what your maintenance calories are. Just jump right to there and overshoot it by a little bit, and then that'll force your body to recover as fast as possible. And then, over a several-week period, you'll see some transitional changes like a fluid retention, maybe a tiny bit of bloating. That sometimes happens initially because you're upping your carbs and your body sucks in more glycogen, and initially it's like a little bit of puffiness. But then your body adapts and it starts to release the fluid again and that gives you a nice chance to just kind of get used to that. See how you feel with your training. You should feel really good. Your biofeedback should tick upward, like you shouldn't have hunger. Your sleep and stress and all of that should like feel better, supported by the energy, and then you can say hit the gas pedal, go for a gain at something like if if you want to be conservative, 0.3%. Everybody wait a week.

Libby: 14:08

And I'll send you.

Philip Pape: 14:08

I'll send you resources on this later. You know, when we're done I'll shoot you an email with the steps, Um, and I'm also going to send you. Just yesterday in the physique university we did a training on gaining and the fears associated with it. So I'm going to send you like a Google doc that has some thoughts, just to kind of reset your mind. And then I did a podcast a long time ago that said why I'm getting fluffy before I get jacked and I, like was vulnerable about my concerns about that. That I think you'll relate to as well, so I'll send you those, Um, but yeah, I would. I would say maintenance for four weeks and then 0.3% body weight a week for at least six months. And given that it is, uh, February, you're in the Northern hemisphere I would take that all the way out, past any point where you're like worried about eating too much If you got off of the game, meaning like go all the way through the holidays.

Libby: 15:01

Okay, although this is probably going to like reverse it. It's just in the summer when we moved back to the States and I see people I know this sounds whatever. This sounds maybe shallow, like I just I want to look great when I see people in like July Okay.

Philip Pape: 15:17

So, okay, got it. Here's what we can do. Are you, are you pretty happy with where you are right now as a, as a baseline? Okay, okay, then what we can do is it is February, so, uh, march, april, may, june, july it's still a decent amount of time. There's a couple of ways we can slice this. One is to do like a, a mini bulk, which normally I wouldn't recommend, but it's something, and you can kind of dip your feet in the water and see what it's like for like three months March, april, may and then you could do a six to eight week mini cut and kind of get right back down to where you were, but having added a little bit of muscle.

Libby: 15:51

How does that sound?

Philip Pape: 15:52

Yeah, I would, I would we're trying that, in which case you don't want to wait too long to get started. So I'm going to say maintenance two weeks, bulk three months. Cut six to eight weeks, the bulk is, the bulk is going to be. I almost want you to go slightly more aggressive, so I'm going to say 0.4% a week and then the cut is going to be what's your expenditure right now? I didn't ask that.

Libby: 16:16

I'll let you know.

Philip Pape: 16:17

Let's see.

Libby: 16:18

My expenditure. Um so, uh, here's what it says right now. So it's saying 1794.

Philip Pape: 16:26

Okay, we're on 1800 and that's after the cut. Has it dropped? And it's dropped from like what? 20,000, 2,000, 2,100.

Libby: 16:34

Oh, do you know that I'm not? I actually hold on. Look, there's this insights graph. Um, let's see where. Would I see the very beginning of it?

Philip Pape: 16:43

Yeah.

Libby: 16:44

I think well, you know I haven't been using, I mean because of you. I haven't been using it that long, so probably I only started it in the high 1800s.

Philip Pape: 16:54

Okay, okay, fair point If you haven't been using it long and it may not have converged all the way to 1880 something.

Libby: 16:58

Yeah, cause I've only had like a month and a half of data. Yeah.

Philip Pape: 17:03

Okay, then when you go back to maintenance you're probably going to be obviously in the upper 1700s. It may recover a little bit over the next couple of weeks, but that's. It's pretty short timeframe for that to cause any much change. But then when you go into the bulk, um, you're probably going to be eating, you know, 1900, maybe 2000 calories. Like it'll push you a little bit. The carbs are going to come up a bit and then you do that for, you know, 12 weeks or so and if you do the math you'll see you're not going to gain that much and at least half of it's going to be muscle. If you're training hard, it's going to be-.

Libby: 17:34

And the funny thing is I'm like what will I even do with 2,000? Like if you give me 2 eating like this, that I'm like what do I even need to get to 2000 calories? I guess like lots of snacks, I don't know. I just I have a good protein rich meal and I'm like I'm full. I'm like I cannot stuff another bite in my mouth.

Philip Pape: 17:55

So I mean yeah this is where we can go down so many rabbit holes. Obviously, um, this is what I help people with coaching, but honestly, the the the easiest advice I would say is meal frequency is your best friend. Like having more meals?

Philip Pape: 18:09

because, that's usually the biggest challenge for people who don't get hungry is just um frequency and then a little more calorie dense foods and occasional indulgences are fine if you need to get them in there, as long as you're eating like 80% 90% of whole foods and fiber. Um. So I would say that for the food and then for your training. The only I wanted to visit that real quickly because, um, all I would think here is I would prefer you be training three days a week and if I was going to ask you cause this membership.

Libby: 18:38

You could do it's this, this. It's like this membership gym and you can move to a third day a week.

Philip Pape: 18:44

Yeah.

Libby: 18:44

So I just wanted to ask you like in in my scenario, you would do three days a week of weights at the gym For sure You're 42 years young.

Philip Pape: 18:53

Look, I'm 44. You're 42 years young. A lot of potential for muscle. Three minimum. I mean maybe even four, but I would say three. Um, I don't know. The Pilates If you do it for fun, that's great, Like you don't need it.

Libby: 19:05

I want to do it. It's like something that I just love, or whatever.

Philip Pape: 19:09

Yeah, that's cool, yeah, so. So one Pilates is three weights and then but like I, need to get right Like I should get some.

Libby: 19:23

I should to Fitbit like literally new a month I'm trying to hit those 10,000. And if the weather's nice here, more so.

Philip Pape: 19:31

Yeah, yeah, 10,000 solid, I mean anywhere over eight, is good. And then if you really want some little bit of extra hit to your cardio, hit to your health heart, but not hit. I'm a big fan of sprinting now, and by sprinting I don't necessarily mean on flat ground, I mean you could do it on a bike or elliptical or whatever. Really, um, simple short sprinting protocol. So you're going to look at it and say this is kind of like hit, but it's a lot more recovery and rest time than normal hit. And honestly, at this point, listen to my episode with Brad Kearns coming out on the 21st and he mentions the exact protocol that I've stolen from him, because a lot of my clients don't even do cardio in that sense, they just walk a lot.

Libby: 20:15

Walking is the best.

Philip Pape: 20:16

Thing you can do for fat loss. It keeps the stress low. Hit can be a little bit stressful. Granted, when you're gaining it's less stressful, but you don't need it unless you really really enjoy it. Libby, which most people don't Do you enjoy it or no?

Libby: 20:31

I'd say like not really. But there is something about when you're done and you feel really good. You know what I mean.

Philip Pape: 20:36

I get it, I get it, that's the dopamine and the endorphins.

Libby: 20:41

I get it, yeah, yeah.

Philip Pape: 20:46

But it also. So just always remember that kind of addictive high is also associated with stress. So, um, whereas walking you don't get the addictive high, but you get the more long-term high. You know what I'm saying? Like it's super. So that's just my philosophy on that. Um, I think that covers the bases. Again, I'm going to number one. You're going to go to maintenance, bulk, then cut, and then you could always redevelop a new phase of periodization after that. It never ends. It's a fun thing. I'll send you two resources that I mentioned. And then I recommend up up into three days a week training, lots of walking. You don't need to do the hit, it's not going to hurt.

Libby: 21:18

I mean, if you've fit in, that's great, and then I'll send you a recap with with notes and resources later on.

Philip Pape: 21:24

Awesome, okay, are you in our Facebook group?

Libby: 21:31

Um, I don't know actually. No worries, I'll send you a link to that. I've looked at it.

Philip Pape: 21:32

Have I joined? I mean probably joined, I don't know. Yeah, all right, cool, I mean any other questions, anything else? Uh, this, is.

Libby: 21:36

This is truly like amazing and, uh, I may be reaching out to you at some point about coaching as well, so thank you so much. This is a great start and definitely I'm looking at it as like this is a long-term, like. I think, my perspective has you know what I mean. It's not just like a diet, it's like this is now like life.

Philip Pape: 21:57

I can tell you you and I are totally on the same page. I'm really happy when I meet someone like you who's like, just gotten the bug and discovered this, the the secret sauce of like how this all works based on the evidence, just like I did like four years ago, and it becomes so much easier. You're going to get all the, all the things you want if you just put in the work and um, yeah, I'm here to help you out. However I can Amazing.

Libby: 22:17

Awesome Thanks.

Philip Pape: 22:18

Libby, thanks for doing the call, awesome yeah.

Libby: 22:20

Thanks so much for your time.

Philip Pape: 22:31

All right, look for my email. Okay, sounds great. Thanks again. Bye-bye, all right, and that was my call with Libby.

Philip Pape: 22:33

As we wrap up today's episode, I really want you to take away one key message that sometimes the best path forward isn't always what you expect, and that's why some expert guidance and someone looking over your shoulder could be exactly what you need. Libby came to me thinking she needed to lose the last few pounds, but what she really needed or wanted was permission to build, to build muscle, to build strength and, most importantly, to build a new relationship with her body and the scale. And she was already on her way toward doing that, and now she's going to take it to a new level. So if you're in that place right now where the scale has become your enemy, where you're stuck trying to lose those last few pounds, or where you just know something needs to change, but you're not sure what, take that as your sign. Your breakthrough might be on the other side of letting go of weight loss or even fat loss as your primary goal. And if Libby's story resonated with you, if you're ready to get the same clarity about your next steps, go ahead and book that call with me.

Philip Pape: 23:24

It's a free 15 minute rapid nutrition assessment. It's not a sales pitch, it is just a focused session. We identify your biggest road block. I give you some steps, some resources. Off you go and you find success in just 15 minutes. That's all it takes. You could transform your approach to fitness and nutrition, just like Libby did. Click the link in the show notes or go to witsandweightscom and click the big button to schedule that assessment. Until next time, keep using your wits, lifting those weights, and remember sometimes gaining is the new losing. I'll talk to you next time here on the Wits and Weights podcast.

Walking vs. Running for Fat Loss and Longevity (Brad Kearns) | Ep 286

Book a FREE 15-minute Rapid Nutrition Assessment, designed to fine-tune your strategy, identify your #1 roadblock, and give you a personalized 3-step action plan in a fast-paced 15 minutes.

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Are your long runs and cardio sessions actually making fat loss harder? Could walking be more effective for your physique and longevity?

I bring on former pro triathlete and Olympic coach Brad Kearns to challenge the conventional wisdom around running and fat loss. Brad explains why chronic cardio may sabotage your metabolism, increase your appetite, and even make you lazier.

Brad Kearns is a two-time US national champion and a former #3 world-ranked professional triathlete. He is the co-author of Born to Walk with Mark Sisson. Brad is a coach, researcher, and speaker focused on longevity, fat loss, and performance.

Today, you’ll learn all about:

02:12 – Why running is the second most dangerous sport after football
06:19 – The genetic flaw in the argument that humans are "Born to Run"
09:34 – How chronic cardio affects metabolism and fat loss
14:27 – Why most calorie burn calculations are totally inaccurate
20:56 – Walking is anabolic, running is catabolic—here’s why
30:02 – The best way to sprint for fat loss (without burnout)
39:09 – Why endurance runners tend to be lazier throughout the day
45:46 – The fat max heart rate and why most people run too fast
55:36 – How to run without destroying your metabolism or joints
1:04:13 – Outro

Episode resources:

• Free bonuses when you buy the book: borntowalkbook.com

• The B.rad Podcast

• Website: bradkearns.com 

Walking vs. Running for Fat Loss and Longevity

If you’ve been logging miles on the treadmill or pounding the pavement in hopes of burning fat, but the results just aren’t there, it’s time to rethink your strategy. In this episode of Wits & Weights, former pro triathlete and Olympic coach Brad Kearns shares why chronic cardio might be holding you back and how a simple shift to more walking (and less running) could improve fat loss, recovery, and longevity.

Why Running Isn’t the Fat Loss Hack You Think It Is

For decades, running has been sold as the ultimate way to get lean. But the science tells a different story:

• Running increases appetite and calorie compensation – More miles often lead to more eating, negating the calorie burn.

• It’s a catabolic activity – Over time, excessive endurance training can break down muscle tissue instead of preserving it.

• Chronic stress from running raises cortisol levels – Elevated cortisol can lead to increased visceral fat storage, making fat loss harder.

• High injury rates – Around 50% of regular runners get injured every year, making it one of the riskiest sports for long-term health.

Yes, running can be a fantastic form of movement if done properly and in moderation. But for many people, it’s more of a fat loss roadblock than a solution.

Walking: The Underrated Fat Loss and Longevity Secret

Unlike running, walking is a low-stress, high-reward movement pattern that aligns with our genetic blueprint. Here’s why walking should be your go-to for fat loss and overall health:

• Minimally stressful and anabolic – Unlike running, walking doesn’t break down muscle tissue. In fact, it can support muscle retention when paired with strength training.

• Keeps cortisol in check – Because walking is low-intensity, it promotes fat burning without excessive stress.

• No recovery cost – You can walk for hours a day without wrecking your body, unlike long-distance running.

• Supports cardiovascular health – Walking at a brisk pace provides many of the heart-health benefits of running without the downsides.

The Fat Max Heart Rate: The Key to Effective Movement

One of the biggest takeaways from Brad’s research is understanding the Fat Max Heart Rate—the intensity level where your body burns the most fat per minute.

A simple formula to estimate your Fat Max Heart Rate:
180 minus your age

For example, if you’re 40 years old, your Fat Max HR would be 140 beats per minute (BPM). Going beyond this threshold shifts your body from primarily burning fat to burning carbohydrates, increasing fatigue and stress hormone production.

Most people hit their Fat Max HR with brisk walking, not running. That’s why slow, steady movement is often a better long-term strategy for body composition and overall health.

Sprinting: The Missing Piece of the Puzzle

If you love running but want to make it more effective, sprinting is the way to go. Sprinting is powerful, explosive, and delivers benefits that long-distance running never will:

• Triggers massive fat loss, especially visceral fat.

• Boosts testosterone and growth hormone, making it one of the best anti-aging activities.

• Improves athletic performance and enhances overall movement efficiency.

• Doesn’t lead to the same metabolic slowdown seen with chronic endurance training.

How to Sprint for Maximum Benefit

Brad recommends a quality-over-quantity approach to sprinting:

• 4–8 sprints per session

• 10–20 seconds per sprint

• At least a 6:1 rest ratio (e.g., if you sprint for 10 seconds, rest for at least 60 seconds before the next one)

Unlike running, sprinting is about short, explosive bursts with full recovery. You’ll get stronger, leaner, and more athletic—without the wear and tear of endurance running.

Making Walking a Part of Your Daily Life

The key to making walking effective is consistency. It’s not about tracking every step—it’s about integrating movement naturally into your lifestyle:

• Walk after meals to help with digestion and blood sugar control.

• Take walking breaks at work instead of sitting all day.

• Use a dog walk or a podcast (like Wits & Weights!) as motivation to get moving.

• Replace short drives with walks whenever possible.

Brad makes a great point—walking isn’t just exercise, it’s a biological necessity, much like sleep. When we move more, we function better. Simple as that.

The Bottom Line

If fat loss and longevity are your goals, walking and sprinting should be at the core of your routine—not chronic, steady-state running. While running has its place, most people overdo it and end up harming their metabolism, increasing stress, and slowing fat loss.

Instead, prioritize:
✅ Daily walking (as much as possible)
✅ Strength training (to preserve muscle and metabolism)
✅ Sprinting (for maximum fat loss and longevity benefits)

By shifting your mindset from “running for fat loss” to “walking for health and sprinting for performance,” you’ll burn more fat, stay injury-free, and improve your overall longevity.

👩‍💻 Book a FREE 15-Minute Rapid Nutrition Assessment:
https://witsandweights.com/free-call

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Transcript

Philip Pape: 0:01

If you've been hitting long runs and cardio sessions, hoping to get leaner, but you aren't seeing the fat loss results you want, this episode is definitely for you. Former pro triathlete and Olympic coach, Brad Kearns, reveals how chronic cardio may be sabotaging your metabolism and making fat loss harder. You'll discover why walking could give you far better results than running. Learn about how running impacts your appetite and hormones, and understand exactly how to optimize your movement for both physique and longevity. Welcome to Wits and Weights, the show that helps you build a strong, healthy physique using evidence, engineering and efficiency.

Philip Pape: 0:46

I'm your host, Philip Pape, and today we're challenging conventional wisdom about cardio and fat loss with Brad Kearns. Brad is a researcher, coach, former two-time US national champion, number three world-ranked professional triathlete. He placed second in last year's USA Masters National Championships in the 55 to 59 high jump. His new book, Born to Walk with Mark Sisson, exposes the science behind why extensive walking, not running, aligns with our genetic blueprint for optimal health. Today, you'll learn the metabolic reasons running can make fat loss harder, how it might make you lazier and tips for a more effective approach to cardio for fat loss. Brad, thank you so much. Welcome to the show.

Brad Kearns: 1:26

Hey, philip, I'm glad to be on. Great intro there. Thanks for spending the time and, yeah, we're going to roll up our sleeves and get into it, because we got some issues to discuss in the fitness world and it's been decades now of this programming message, of struggling and suffering your way to getting fit, that this is the path and it's time to unwind it, because so many well-meaning people have, you know, laced up their running shoes and, in the case of what we focus on in the book, but also, you know, devoted gym rats who are going in and taking a bunch of classes or immersed into the extreme CrossFit community and, by and large, following an inappropriate protocol that leads to breakdown, burnout, illness and injury and especially, failed efforts at reducing excess body fat and all kinds of other fallout, where the body is trained inappropriately and the results don't happen.

Philip Pape: 2:19

So let's go right for the jugular, because you took us there. You mentioned some trigger words for people, I'm sure including CrossFitfit, which I did for like eight years before I switched the way that I trained. What's wrong with running brad like what is wrong with it?

Brad Kearns: 2:31

uh, well, depends who you are, and it's really a wonderful outlet for people who are highly trained and well adapted and have that baseline physical fitness and musculoskeletal resiliency to enjoy endurance training. But it can easily lead to problems when you are not well adapted and you're coming from sedentary lifestyle patterns and then lacing up the shoes and heading down the road. So we need to look at running as a very dangerous, high risk sport because of the aforementioned fallout that I talked about. I talked to earnest high school kids who are competitive runners and then they get injured and their parent seeks me out to talk about my experience as a former elite level high school and college runner and pro triathlete and I say you know, you understand, like it's probably the second most dangerous sport on the high school docket besides tackle football. And it's this pounding and this prevailing approach where the obsession with repeatedly accumulating lots of miles day after day in the interest of getting fit for these ridiculous events that we glorify, like the 26.2 mile marathon. So it's inherently too stressful for the body and for most participants to gain any benefit from.

Brad Kearns: 3:53

Therefore, we have that tongue and cheek title of the book. We call it Born to Walk and it's a little bit of a take on the 2009 bestselling book called Born to Run, which glorified the amazing genetic attributes of the human for endurance. So we are indeed built for occasional magnificent feats of endurance as we are hunting down our prey on the savannah and evolving to the top of the food chain because we are able to access the big game and the nutrient-rich foods, and so that's part of our evolutionary biology that we are, for example, bipedal, so we are much better runners than a four-legged creature, and we have sweat mechanisms so we can persist and do endurance achievements in the heat where other animals might become overheated. We have an Achilles tendon, which primatologist Bill Sellers contends is quote the primary evolutionary adaptation that made human beings who they are, because our ape cousins, who don't have Achilles tendons if you go to the zoo and watch a chimpanzee decide to sprint across his area. He's running with this strange flat-footed style like a gorilla, and they're not well adapted for running any distance.

Brad Kearns: 5:04

And so we take this story and this message and then we have a very flawed misinterpretation and misappropriation to conclude that we are going to benefit from running long distances on the regular. So what happens when we get into overly stressful workout patterns and I'll define exactly how you can determine whether you're in an overly stressed pattern or not. But when we overstress ourselves with regular workouts that are slightly to significantly too difficult, that's when we incur these overuse injuries at an amazing rate. The stats on the running community are absolutely shocking and embarrassing. Yale University School of Medicine contends that 50% of all regular runners are injured every year and that 25% of all devoted runners are injured at any given time.

Philip Pape: 6:02

Yeah, I was going to get into that stat, so I'm glad you led with that, because two major things you brought up. One is the injury rate. I know soccer is another one that's way up there on the injury rate, which involves a lot of running but of course involves people crashing each other without equipment on, and I know lifting weights is at the bottom, if not the bottom lowest injury on the list, just so people are aware of that. You also mentioned the genetic or ancestral factor. Let's just talk about that for a second, because you made a great argument that it is a, not a red herring. What's the logical flaw when people say, well, if our ancestors did this one thing, then it extrapolates to everything else, which we do, for food too, let's admit it, yeah.

Brad Kearns: 6:38

Yeah. And then you, you lead with sentences like wouldn't you think that blank, blank, blank, lead with sentences like, wouldn't you think that blank, blank, blank? And I'm like, well, maybe not, but since you loaded me up, I guess I have to think that way, yeah, so I guess it's out of context. Evolutionary biology insight. So indeed, if we went and looked at the Hadza in Tanzania one of the last remaining hunter-gatherer populations on earth they cover between three and nine miles per day in the course of their daily business gathering or out on persistence hunts. And so the human has long been engaged in frequent everyday movement, until only actually recent times, when you think of, like you know, the industrial revolution. Before that, we were mostly farming and moving on our feet, and even in factory life, people were working hard and moving on our feet, and even in factory life, people were working hard. That's why we have three meals a day, because you have to fuel up at breakfast to go and bust your butt in the factory. You got to take a midday break because you've been working so hard and then you come home and you want more food and we still have three meals a day for people that sit in front of a screen all day.

Brad Kearns: 7:39

So modern life is so different that we really can't compare to some hunter-gatherer anecdote and contend that we too can engage in persistence hunting day after day.

Brad Kearns: 7:52

And in fact, the ancestral pattern was completely different than what we perceive it to be, because if we were to fail at persistence hunting, we would be someone else's dinner. To fail at persistence hunting, we would be someone else's dinner. So we did not chase after the antelope for hours and hours and finally prevail because it got too hot. But we did that once in a while and then we carried the game back to camp and we celebrated and feasted for a long time. And hunter gatherers, by definition, did the bare minimum physical activity necessary to survive, whereas today we have a tendency to overexercise, especially in the running and the fitness communities where we push ourselves so hard. Because of all the confines and the comfort and predictability of modern life, we feel compelled to push and challenge our bodies, and that stuff is all great and it's a great way to live a balanced, adventurous, active life. However, the problem occurs when you overdo it and compromise your health, compromise your fat loss goals and get into these ruts where we see as a common pattern in the fitness scene.

Philip Pape: 8:57

Yeah, perfect segue to talk about metabolism expenditure. There's a few concepts here that overlap we can maybe get into. When you talk about the Hadza, first of all, what came to mind is how much honey they eat.

Brad Kearns: 9:07

I remember watching the documentary about that.

Philip Pape: 9:10

It's pretty cool. But the idea of, for example, the constraint versus the additive model of expenditure you're familiar with Henry Ponser's work on that and the doubly labeled water study and then the fact that people overexercise I mean that is a key pillar we address on this podcast all the time is, a lot of people are doing too much and not enough of the right thing, and in my own nutrition coaching practice, plenty of a person, especially women, but I don't want to stereotype because men too will come in, just they're doing too much. And then you step back, you strip it out, you focus on lifting heavy and walking and all of a sudden so many things start to normalize. So how does this chronic cardio affect your metabolism, your ability to burn fat? And then we can lead to what are the alternatives?

Brad Kearns: 9:53

Right. This constrained model of exercise asserts that we engage in an assortment of compensatory behaviors when we expend an excessive amount of energy exercising. I think it was Dr Herman Ponser's quote where he said reproduction, repair, growth and locomotion are a zero-sum game. So locomotion means all manner of movement and workouts and your workout patterns. And then if we dedicate too much energy to locomotion we turn down these important dials of repair, reproduction and growth. So that means the compensation theory of exercise means if you wake up your alarm at 6am and go slam a spinning class or run eight miles in the freezing, cold winter temperatures in Connecticut, the rest of the day your body is going to conserve energy because you expended so much with the workout, especially if the pace was incorrect, and we'll get into that shortly. But it also means that this exhausting, depleting exercise pattern that many fitness enthusiasts are engaged in will dysregulate appetite and satiety hormones. So the 6 am spin class is paired directly with reaching for the pint of Ben and Jerry's in the evening and wolfing the whole thing down. The body does not like to be depleted and exhausted on a regular basis and we kick into these survival mechanisms that prompt us to overeat, as if the brain is telling the body well, I better finish this whole pint in case this fool tries again tomorrow morning to wake up at 6 am and burn 750 calories at spin class. So that's the constrained model of integer expenditure as we turn down other dials. And the additive model, like you mentioned, is this long flawed notion where you can go on the internet and calculate your basal metabolic rate and then go determine that a spin class burns between 650 and 700 calories and then add that up and, as the calculation finishes here, you should lose 42 pounds of excess body fat in one year because you're doing spin class three days a week and obviously we've learned that that's a disastrous, dismal failure.

Brad Kearns: 12:03

But to continue on this rant, to answer your question, what happens when you engage in overly stressful endurance exercise patterns is that you chronically overproduce stress hormones and they linger in your bloodstream, just like they do in our hectic, high-stress modern life.

Brad Kearns: 12:20

So we already have stressful lifestyle patterns that are in disconnect with our ancestral model and our genetic expectation for health.

Brad Kearns: 12:28

And now you layer on top that 6 am spin class or that long distance run and that 30 miles a week that you're trying to hit, and then work it up to 40 miles a week before the marathon comes in the final months, and what happens is it's stress on top of more stress, and when you put out too much cortisol people are familiar with that term as the preeminent stress hormone when you do that routinely, your body gets the signals, the genetic signals are sent to add body fat and shed lean muscle mass and, in particular, you are prompted to store visceral fat.

Brad Kearns: 13:03

That's the health destructive fat that collects around the organs, even worse than the subcutaneous fat, which is stored all over in your problem areas and is largely. It's not a big health concern, but the visceral fat has immediate destructive effects to your overall health and your hormone balance. And this is what happens to endurance freaks that train too hard and push their bodies without that balance of stress and rest and also a more varied fitness program where, like you say, you're doing the low-risk activities like lifting weights are far more safe than just jogging down the road with your elevated, cushioned shoes.

Philip Pape: 13:39

And I want to put a pin in a topic to get to later, if we don't forget, because I do want to address the corner case of the person who can do a high level of endurance activity and balance things out. I want to talk about that but in the meantime, a few things just to clarify for folks listening because you put that so clearly is, if you're trying to burn an extra 100 calories from more activity, you're probably going to offset a fraction of that, if not the whole thing, through this compensatory mechanism.

Brad Kearns: 14:07

Yeah, philip, when I worked for a spinning company, the spinning indoor cycling program, my friend Johnny G invented spinning and we were trying to educate consumers about different things and so we actually funded a study to see what the calorie burning was like. And a spin class burns around 650 to 700 calories in that 45 minute class. And then I did a macronutrient analysis of a Jamba Juice medium smoothie and a breakfast scone and it was like 710. So you're going at 6am if you do a spin class, you're going to be tending to reaching for that extra food to replenish depleted glycogen.

Philip Pape: 14:47

Yeah, and guess what, if you're tracking and you use willpower or discipline to not do that, then you're just going to be starving. So it's just either way right. It all works out one way or the other, and this is why I like the body, treating the body as a closed system. Because you mentioned BMR calculators and people know the pie charts that have BMR, thermic, effective food, exercise and non-exercise, and they try to add it all together and really what you should do is okay, this is what I'm eating, this is how my weight is changing. Therefore, I know how many calories I'm burning. And that's effectively what Ponser and the guys did is, they said, almost everybody on the planet has roughly the same BMR when normalized for muscle mass, when normalized for body composition, and so that's not going to be an efficient way to burn more calories, and I know we're going to get to one. That is that everybody knows we're going to talk about, which is walking.

Brad Kearns: 15:35

On that note, I came up with some interesting research in the course of writing this book, which was really fascinating. Someone who is sedentary and unfit this is the sitting is the new smoking body of research. But what's happening there is that they are engaging overactive inflammatory processes and stress reactivity end quote. I'm remembering this, burned into my brain. So they are burning energy in an inappropriate manner.

Brad Kearns: 16:04

And the analogy that was brought up was like the firefighters are in the station and they're not getting any calls on the truck and so they're racing up and down the stairs and then they're coming over to your house just for practice and so they bash in your front door and they run up around and they also put an ax into your stairway and then they go back to the station and rest and then do it to someone else's house. So we don't want these overactive inflammatory processes and stress reactivity, but that's what's happening if you do insufficient exercise and don't burn the calories in the correct manner through extensive everyday walking and dedicating yourself to an appropriately designed fitness program. And that's again because you mentioned the ceiling. It made me think of that and like, wait a second, how is my unfit, lazy neighbor burning the same number of calories per day, as I am. When I'm going to these, 6 am spinning classes. Some of it is devoted to the body not working right.

Philip Pape: 17:01

Yeah, it is fascinating when you look at walking versus standing and not being sedentary versus cardio versus lifting and when you kind of combine the best of those. I was just talking to my coach the other day about having better work capacity and conditioning when you're a lifter. Are there benefits to that from a nutrient partitioning perspective? And there is evidence that shows that if you're trying to build muscle, for example, and you're in a calorie surplus, a little bit more of that will go toward muscle. If you're a little bit better conditioned, it doesn't mean doing a bunch of cardio. It just shows how, like we're kind of meant to be fit people. You know doing things.

Brad Kearns: 17:36

Yeah, and also, uh, you're probably familiar with Chris Hinshaw. He's a big coach in the CrossFit scene, his business is called Aerobic Capacity and he's a former compatriot of mine on the professional triathlon circuit. So we both had that extreme endurance background Now, you know, transformed into he's a big CrossFit guy and I'm a sprinter and a high jumper in Masters track and field. But he was discovering when he started working with the CrossFit athletes that these guys are so powerful and explosive and have the amazing ability to do 10 box jumps and then climb the rope and then do some upside down handstand pushups. However, with the lack of that baseline endurance or that baseline aerobic capacity, they're going to do this amazingly impressive workout and bomb out in 17 minutes instead of 31. And they're going to get eliminated in the CrossFit Games regionals instead of going to the finals. So every athlete in every sport obviously the elite soccer players and the NBA players who are running up and down the court everyone needs this aerobic foundation in order to thrive and perform, even in the most explosive events.

Brad Kearns: 18:44

A power lifter okay, the most explosive sport of all where your effort is four seconds long, the longest thing they're asking you to do is lift the weight off the ground. But how long do these guys' workouts last? They last for hours. They do a two and a half hour weightlifting session. So as soon as you get out of the car and walk through the parking lot to the front door of the gym and beep your pass and get your towel and head over to the weights and do a warm-up set and then sit and go through your text messages, which apparently is part of gym culture these days. And I often wonder because I'm not a big gym guy, philip, but I'm like I see a guy on the bench press machine that I want to use, but he's resting between sets and sending text messages. Is it okay to say hey?

Philip Pape: 19:30

can you text like one bench over, so I can do my one set and move on with my life. It is okay. It is okay. It's a genetic to say can I work in there? Yeah, you should tell him to pace around, get some steps, yeah exactly, but I'm making the point.

Brad Kearns: 19:39

It's like as soon as you get out of your car car your heart rate is at least double resting rate, and spiking up even higher when you're doing sets. But when you're sitting on the bench texting it's still double resting rate. So you are getting a cardiovascular training effect for that entire hour and 45 minutes that you're goofing around in the gym in between doing hard stuff, and so that counts toward your cardio quotient to the extent that you don't have to go and pound out miles on the road to hit that checkbox on your total fitness scoreboard.

Philip Pape: 20:14

Yeah, that's right Because, again, I used to do CrossFit and you get conditioned but you also burn out and if you look at the competitors, they also focus a lot on their strength and their exercise. You know their movements to where they have a strength base as well, such that the cardio, the conditioning for them, visceral fat. But you mentioned something specific. You said it can break down muscle tissue, I believe, which means it's catabolic, and people love to understand, or don't always understand, that concept of anabolic behaviors eating anabolically, having higher energy flux through walking that it's anabolic. Recovering is anabolic, Hormones are anabolic, but catabolic is the opposite. I don't know where you stand on carbs. This is just a side tangent, but I often talk about how sometimes carbs can be anti-catabolic when you're building muscle. But anyway, that's a separate topic yeah, well said, exactly.

Philip Pape: 21:09

Yeah, yeah. So I know you said walking is anabolic and running is catabolic, so maybe explain that a little more for folks.

Brad Kearns: 21:16

Oh, my goodness, that's so funny. You bring up this because Mark and I spent probably a week talking back and forth to add a couple paragraphs to the book to explain it properly, and it's so complex, but we want to give you the simple insights. But just as a background, like body is, it's an oversimplification to say this is catabolic, this is anabolic, but it makes the point really well. But at all times the body's undergoing processes that are both actually and the best example is sleep. So sleep is called an amphibolic process because you are both engaging in catabolism as well as, of course, anabolic. Uh, when you talk about, you know restoring and repairing and regenerating with your overnight sleep. So with walking, it is sending signals to the body for anabolic processes because it's minimally destructive, you have minimal impact, trauma and you're getting all these processes working. Where you're getting more blood flowing, oxygen delivery, you're building a brain-derived neurotropic factor to help with neuroplasticity. So all this great stuff is happening with minimal penalty or destruction or breakdown. Now with running overall for most runners, because they are not fit enough to really do the sport in a manner that is minimally stressful and building the aerobic system, they're just breaking down the body over and over with a slightly too stressful pace and also incorrect form. That's resulting in more impact trauma, because what we see this pattern is the over-striding, breaking, jarring heel-striking pattern as seen in 80 to 95% of all recreational runners, according to Dr Daniel Lieberman's research at Harvard percent of all recreational runners, according to dr daniel lieberman's research at harvard. And so the reason that we see so much of this overstriding braking pattern are people that are poorly adapted, have insufficient overall physical competency and musculoskeletal resiliency to run with correct form. Why are they running or how are they able to run?

Brad Kearns: 23:19

It was the invention of the elevated cushion shoe back in the 1970s by Nike. So these shoes came out where you could put on the shoe and shuffle down the street with this heel striking pattern and go and run five miles, whereby, if you didn't have these magical shoes, you'd be traumatized after two minutes or three minutes and your calves and your feet would hurt because of the poor running form. So the shoes enable poorly adapted people to run who should not be running in the first place. Do they cause poor form? Of course not. It's an innate object that sits on a shelf and so what they do is enable poor form.

Brad Kearns: 23:57

What's the cause of poor running form. It's that lack of basic physical fitness. So you have tight hip flexors, you have tight hamstrings, you have dysfunctional glutes because they don't fire, because your form is incorrect. You have poor core strength and poor foundation, so that you have an insufficient forward lean of the trunk, so you're allowed to do this breaking stride. You have poor ankle mobility and all these factors against you because you're not a super fit person and you have a lot of sedentary patterns in life. And then you insist on shuffling down the road at this dangerous sport that is gonna drive chronic overuse injury.

Philip Pape: 24:35

Because it's so easy, right? You just lace up your shoes, no equipment needed, and you just go. Yeah, so I know the shoes in the 70s and I believe there was some book in the 70s too, that I don't know if you know which one it is that led to a huge the fitness revolution, or whatever.

Brad Kearns: 24:49

what came to running this running boom kicked off, and it's important to understand, because there's been so much hype and marketing commentary socializing us to think that running is this end all fitness accomplishment, when in fact it's, you know, mainly catabolic and prompts accumulation of fat rather than reduction of fat and prompts the loss of muscle. And boy, we really got into this mess with profit driven corporate marketing forces with a big interest in it, especially the running shoe advertising Just do it is widely regarded as the greatest advertising campaign of all time, and so, hey, how can you resist? And I want to clarify that, like getting people off the couch in comfortable modern life and out, doing something is a great step forward for mankind, but it's really important to do it correctly, otherwise we can actually be worse off than someone who just engages in a basic level of activity, like tending to their garden and walking down to the post office to mail a letter, and all those quaint memories that we have from a previous time, before the fitness boom kicked into gear.

Philip Pape: 25:58

Yeah, so we addressed some of the reasons why running is not great for fat loss. Not only that it breaks down muscle tissue, but you also compensate for the calorie burn. It also causes overtraining, which means you're not going to be moving as much or you're going to impede recovery. But just to make it super clear for people I know there's this idea running makes you tone, it burns fat. It's just part of that culture. Why is just that not the case? Just so people know. Like the big bullet points behind that.

Brad Kearns: 26:26

Well, it's not a very demanding sport for the overall musculoskeletal system. Right, you're just shuffling down the road. Go look at the elite runners in the Olympics. These guys are super skinny and somewhat emaciated, but they're also ripped and they're fine athletes and they're running at a very, very high speed. So it's sort of like a different deal when you look at a guy who's running a two-hour marathon or running the 10K around the track in 26 minutes. They're extremely highly trained athletes and very fit and have the physique of a champion.

Brad Kearns: 26:59

So the recreational aspect, where people are running very, very slowly. However, they're still stressing their bodies too much with the simple act of running that they're not adapted to do. So it's kind of like pushing yourself to do a bunch of deadlifts, of squats with really crappy form and continuing and insisting to continue and do more and more sets until you're really tired and your form's even worse, and then you get injured and exhausted and reach for the Ben and Jerry's. We wouldn't dream of doing that, that stupid of a workout in the gym, but basically that's what we're seeing every day when people are going for that weekly mileage goal, with that poor form, with that excess impact, trauma and the overeating and the appetite and satiety dysregulation that occurs from overly stressful pattern. And one thing when you listed off those reasons that were criticizing running, we forgot another huge one, which is, if you're devoting all this energy to cardiovascular endurance training at a slightly to significantly too stressful of a pace, guess what you don't have time and energy for anymore. You don't have time to even dabble in weights and go do one set through the machines once a week, or the very bare minimum necessary to maintain functional muscle mass and muscle strength, and forget about probably the greatest return on investment of any workout known to mankind, which is sprinting right. So the brief, explosive, all out sprints are the thing that we lose more quickly with aging than we do the cardiovascular endurance.

Brad Kearns: 28:36

I talked to my mom about this. She's 87. She's in fantastic shape and she walks one to two miles every morning with her dog and she's very proud of it and looks around at people her age who are falling apart and I say, hey, that walk is great, that's a great foundation. Now you need to keep that appointment with the personal trainer at the gym and you need to go put your body under resistance load to maintain that muscle mass. It's absolutely essential and I think you know it's nice to see now with the content you're putting out and many other people like strength training and sprinting are vastly more important than this baseline cardiovascular steady state endurance training Because, as I mentioned, you are getting cardio if you become a competent strength trainer or a sprinter.

Philip Pape: 29:19

Okay. So you opened the door to sprinting because I wasn't even going to go there. I was next going to say okay. So we know pretty much for a fact that you could lose fat, be fit, not have to run ever. Trust me, I know from personal experience and coaching many, many clients who don't want to run and they don't have to run. But sprinting is its own form of running, in its own category, and I will say I love it. I don't do it as often as I used to. Again, in CrossFit, my favorite thing to do was shuttle runs.

Philip Pape: 29:44

I love the ones where the every minute on the minute where you had to do like I don't know, I think it was 10 meters, and then on the second minute you do 10 meters and then 10 meters back and then on the third you add another segment. You see, if you can get up to like 18 was a pretty good. Like you know, I have an ego. I'm satisfying my ego right when you get to like 18, but let's dive into that then, because I don't talk about that enough on the show. I'm not against it. I talk about things like pushing and pulling sleds. We talk about if you need to go on the bike or do some swimming or something that is completely concentric without the eccentric loading. That's cool, you know, for a session here or there, but tell us about sprinting.

Brad Kearns: 30:22

Well, if we had more space on the cover, the book would appropriately be titled Humans Are Born to Walk and Sprint. Okay, and so that is. Our essential genetic expectation for health and survival is that we need to be prepared. In primal times we need to run for our lives or run to get food so we didn't starve, and so that selection pressure, the genetic adaptations occurred where we became great endurance machines, as discussed earlier, and we also became very strong and we became powerful and explosive to deal with a primal hazard. So we want to honor those genetic expectations for health today, and sprinting is a hugely important piece of the puzzle.

Brad Kearns: 31:04

Interestingly, it doesn't take that much time, so it's not a huge ask to have someone sprinkle in some sprinting stimulation into their fitness regimen. And we're talking about when we really use the term sprint properly. We're talking about a brief, explosive, nearly all-out effort, and we know from exercise physiology the human can only deliver a maximum effort for seven seconds. Right, that's what the ATP, creatine, phosphate, the energy inside the cell where you can go full bore, starts to peter out at seven seconds, and so anything over seven seconds is not technically a pure sprint. So when we watch the 100 meters in the Olympics and the guys run 9.79,. They're actually decelerating a bit in the final stages of even the fastest, most explosive event in the Olympics. So that's something to understand when we talk about sprinting. The ideal template for a workout would be to sprint for 10 to 20 seconds. Yes, sprinting for seven seconds is great, but if we get 10 to 20 seconds then we're getting some good fitness stimulation. But we're stopping before we incur too much cellular stress and musculoskeletal trauma and stress hormone production because the workout's too brutal and your tongue's hanging out at the end.

Brad Kearns: 32:20

So a proper sprint workout is not Rocky Balboa puking on the side of the road from going so fast so many times. It's a very crisp, explosive session where you're executing precise technique and you do not degrade over the course of the workout. So, unlike high intensity interval training where you're hanging on and you got two more and you can do it and the group is rallying around you and you high five at the end as you're dripping in a pool of sweat during that spin class where you're asked to go over and over again for 30 second sprints with 30 seconds rest and we're going to go for it, that's one form of training but true, sprinting is an extensive amount of rest in between very brief bursts of all out performance. So I give this recommended template for anyone could be a four to eight sprints lasting between 10 and 20 seconds, with a minimum six to one recovery to work ratio. So if you're sprinting for 10 seconds, you rest for at least a minute before you do another sprint and that gives you this consistent quality of high performance effort with each rep. You only have to do four to eight.

Brad Kearns: 33:32

Oh question, in the back of the class, what if I get really good and fit and I do eight good ones? Then what you're going to do is you're going to go faster. You're not going to go up to 12 someday or 14, or keep adding volume, as we've been socialized to believe inaccurately by fitness programming where it's like more, more, more. With sprinting it's all about quality and extensive rest and, as you read on my bio, now that I'm a master sprinter and having to learn all the attributes of sprinting that weren't familiar to me as a longtime endurance athlete, I'm getting scolded by my advisors because I'm only taking a six to one ratio, which I feel is plenty for me.

Brad Kearns: 34:12

But to do to get fast at 10 second sprints, you might want to rest for two or three or four minutes before you do another one, and that's just a more sophisticated level of sprint training. But for the basic template for everybody is that four to eight sprints, 10 to 20 seconds, six to one ratio, and then you're opening up a whole new world of fitness benefits. Especially, and probably of most interest to people, is the ability to shed excess body fat quickly, especially visceral fat, and there's great research showing that sprinting targets visceral fat reduction in particular, because visceral fat is more metabolically active than subcutaneous fat, so it makes it easier to remove if you send the right genetic signals through things like sprinting or I guess you could arguably throw in fasting and things like that that are trying to rev up the metabolism.

Philip Pape: 35:06

I have to say, brad, you've got the bug in me all right, so I got to do this now Because you're right, the way I used to do it was more of the HIIT style that you're talking about, and I absolutely love this prescription and the caution to only go up in intensity, only go up in speed, as your form of progressive overload for your sprinting is really good, because then people aren't doing oh, now I'm doing 12 of these, now I'm doing 20. Guess what? My Brad Kearns protocol is now an hour long. It doesn't work that way. This is good. I'm going to follow up on this with you later and then this could be a whole separate topic to dive into. All right, cool Sprinting, brad. Good, everybody has that.

Brad Kearns: 35:43

Oh yeah, sprinting is definitely a full show dedicated to that.

Brad Kearns: 35:48

And when we look at these research benefits like brain-derived neurotropic factor and just making you a more confident, resilient person, and also what sprinting does is it reduces perceived exertion at all lower levels of exercise intensity.

Brad Kearns: 36:03

So if you become competent at sprinting, your five mile jog or your hour long group exercise class in the gym, everything feels easier and it literally is easier because, as you know from like central governor theory, your perception of how difficult the workout is is how difficult the workout is.

Brad Kearns: 36:23

And so when we say my quads got really tired on my 12th rep of squats, it's not literally true. The quads don't have feelings and emotions and think they're tired. It's your brain that gets tired because you never worked that top end, and so everything becomes sort of a challenge or grueling or all these sensations where we need to teach the body to perform that brief, explosive, powerful as the essence of anti-aging. So the anti-aging benefits are tremendous and, in contrast to that chronic overproduction of stress hormones that I talk about with an endurance training regimen, what sprinting does is an appropriately brief fight or flight spike of hormones into the bloodstream and then, because the workout is over quickly. You're able to quickly recalibrate back to homeostasis and come back stronger and more resilient, thanks to testosterone and growth hormone coursing through your bloodstream, acting upon target organs, building more muscle, shedding excess body fat and improving the brain's perception of fatigue during exercise.

Philip Pape: 37:29

Yeah, the mind-body thing is really powerful there you mentioned. This reminds me a lot of just the system we use for lifting right, it's the ATP-CP system, and if you look at the physique of sprinters, you know that they're not emaciated like long distance runners.

Brad Kearns: 37:47

Yeah, there's a popular quip when we're doing live lectures and you ask have you ever seen a fat sprinter?

Brad Kearns: 37:55

And the answer is no. There's no such thing, because it's the penalty for carrying excess body fat when you're going at high speed is so severe that the genetic signaling will occur every time you do a sprint workout to shed that excess body fat, to adapt and become stronger for next time. Now, have you ever seen a fat marathon runner? In fact, the research from Cape Town Marathon in South Africa determined that 30% of the participants were over the healthy BMI range. And then we compare contrast to World Health Organization research showing that 30% of the global population, largely in the developed nations, is also outside of healthy BMI range. So when you go to an event and you cannot distinguish between the spectators and the participants, you got a problem with your sport. You go to a powerlifting meet I can see who's competing in the heavyweight division and who's watching, but the marathoning generally does not support any improvement in physique and can actually cause extreme harm with that accumulation of visceral fat and the loss of muscle mass.

Philip Pape: 39:02

Yeah, and I know when I've sprinted and I've asked people to just do it randomly who are lifters, who squat a lot, it's like that base of power goes a long way as well. They're a duo, they're like.

Philip Pape: 39:12

Batman and Robin. There, it's cool. Yeah, it's pretty cool, all right. So on the other side of the spectrum, you posted something on Instagram just recently, a few days ago that said endurance running the way most people do it prompts increased laziness in general life, and I'm very intrigued by that. I want you to tell me more about that one.

Brad Kearns: 39:29

Yeah, it happens both consciously and subconsciously. So when you're proud of yourself for waking up on the cold, snowy morning and running eight miles before most of your neighbors are awake, or they're shuffling out to pick up the newspaper and head back into the warm home, what happens is you give yourself permission, you give yourself a hall pass to be lazier throughout the day. And so when you're asked, hey, do you mind raking the leaves this afternoon? You say I'll do it tomorrow because I ran eight miles this morning and I'm tired and lazy. So, on a conscious level, you give those hall passes for another scoop of ice cream, another serving, another helping at the meal, and runners glow and crow about how they have a free pass to eat more food.

Brad Kearns: 40:20

And you were mentioning the books that helped launch the running boom. One of them was the complete book of running by Jim fix, who famously dropped out of a heart attack at age 51, ignoring all recommendations to get medical checkups, even though he had a family history. And he would write passages like the great thing about running is when the furnace is hot enough, anything will burn. In other words, you don't have to scrutinize your dietary choices because you're burning so many calories. And this became a cultural paradigm in the seventies. And even the leading cardiovascular experts at the time the doctor, said the same thing they thought you would be heart attack proof if you could run a marathon and now're seeing the opposite a rash of heart problems in long-time extreme athletes.

Brad Kearns: 41:01

But back to the permissions where consciously you give yourself those hall passes and then subconsciously the body engages in these energy conserving mechanisms to react to what's perceived as a survival threat and so you need to conserve energy.

Brad Kearns: 41:18

You turn down those other dials, remember they are reproduction repair and growth in favor of excess locomotion. And I think the most extreme example when we talk about reproduction for males that would mean one's libido and for females, reproductive fitness can go awry with these extremely high-performing females when their body fat drops below a threshold and they experience amenorrhea, the loss of menstruation. So whether or not you're interested in family planning and what's happening in the immediate future, our primary biological drive to exist is to reproduce. So when one loses reproductive fitness, this is an extreme indicator that one's stress mechanisms and lifestyle are out of balance. And the elite female athletes deal with that routinely, especially in the sports that demand low body fat. So if you see a female with six pack. She is treading on thin ice, even though she looks great and is getting a lot of followers on her social media posts. Um, the body does not really want to be pushed that hard and you have to make all these concessions for general health.

Brad Kearns: 42:26

Yeah, and one thing I mentioned uh, you know I was. I was pro circuit for nine years, so I traveled around the world. I trained all day. I slept for half of my life during my career as a pro triathlete 12 hours, 10 hours a night and two hour every afternoon. But I also experienced all around five or six colds every year and it was just part of life as a pro triathlete, with all that traveling and all that training. So, hey, that's nine years times, let's say six.

Brad Kearns: 42:58

I had 50 upper respiratory minor infections in my peak years of ages 20 to 30. Kind of ridiculous, when you think about it, that I was bashing my immune system and suppressing it so routinely with all that stress, hormone production. And, on a less extreme example, that's what the recreational enthusiast is dealing with, because they have little kids that they have to get up and deal with school and then they have to go to work and be responsible and rake the leaves and they want to run eight miles in the morning and it's too much. In contrast, that sprint workout that I described fills you with energy and enthusiasm and a level uh appetite and satiety hormone, uh status, so that you go through life eating healthy, nutritious meals and feeling great and having more energy because you work out and train rather than less hey, just wanted to give a shout out to philip.

Jerry: 43:49

I personally worked with philip for about eight months and I lost a total of 33 pounds of scale weight and about five inches off my waist.

Jerry: 43:57

Two things I really enjoy about working with Philip is number one. He's really taken the time to develop a deep expertise in nutrition and also resistance training, so he has that depth. If you want to go deep on the lies with Philip, but if also if you want to just kind of get some instruction and more practical advice and a plan on what you need to do, you can pull back and communicate at that level. Also, he is a lifter himself, so he's very familiar with the performance and body composition goals that most lifters have. And also Philip is trained in engineering, so he has some very efficient systems set up to make the coaching experience very easy and very efficient and you can really track your results and you will have real data when you're done working with Philip and also have access to some tools likely that you can continue to use. If all that sounds interesting to you. Philip, like all good coaches, has a ton of free information out there and really encourage you to see if he may be able to help you out. So thanks again, philip.

Philip Pape: 45:00

Yeah, again, the parallel with lifting is I was thinking the exact same thing when you talked about running. I used to try to train for half marathon. I never got there. That was many years ago. I hated it, I hated the running. But yeah, you felt like, well, I just did this thing and now I'm exhausted and the rest of the day is done and maybe I'm going to eat more too. But lifting and sprinting give you a different feeling, especially with the cortisol. It helps you manage that and feel like you want to be productive, and there's also the mental resilience you get of overcoming these hard things.

Philip Pape: 45:30

The costs of getting lean are very important. You just mentioned that. We've talked about that as well, and we've talked to bodybuilders about it who are like, look, it's a serious thing, it's an extreme. Like any other sport, you have to be willing to do the trade-offs, like the immune system. People don't think about that. But if you've already got metabolic adaptation happening during fat loss, now you're just going to exacerbate it with all the other stuff happening. So all great stuff. So you mentioned heart health and I think you've talked about something called the Fat Max heart rate. Do I have that right in my notes and people are thinking again running heart health zone two it's all the rage now getting doing zone training. What are your thoughts on that?

Brad Kearns: 46:06

Yeah, that's funny because I was just looking down at my notes is the one thing that's really important to cover, and you mentioned it briefly at the outset. It's sort of like when can you get permission to run and when can it be beneficial? So it's the metabolic and stress impact of one's workout that determines whether it is supportive to long-term fitness improvement as well as longevity, or whether it can set you back. And so there's this important concept called fat max heart rate, and it represents the intensity level at which you are burning the maximum number of fat calories per minute, and that goes with the heart rate. So fat max heart rate is widely regarded as 180 minus.

Brad Kearns: 46:47

Your age is a great way to pretty accurately estimate your fat max. So I'm about to be 60 years old, so I go 180 minus 60. My fat max heart rate, my training heart rate at fat max, is 120. If I were to speed up and raise my heart rate and go faster, of course I'm gonna be burning more calories the faster I go. You burn more calories sprinting than you do when jogging or walking right. But at fat max, what happens if you envision a upside down U-shaped curve is you start burning fewer fat calories per minute in favor of a quick spike in glucose burning as well as a quick spike in ventilation and stress, hormone production and everything. So this cutoff point is so important to recognize because if you go past fat max, the workout now becomes moderately stressful rather than energizing and restorative. So the amount of low intensity movement that one can do there is virtually no ceiling to the benefits you accrue. So if I say, philip, hey, let's take this summer, take a break from podcasting and let's hike the 2,000-mile Appalachian Trail in 90 days, that would by and large be a tremendously healthy way to spend the summer. We're hiking at a comfortable pace, we're outdoors, we're getting sunlight, we're getting de-stressed from mobile technology and taking breaks and having all kinds of great benefits. So there's no upper limit to the benefits of moving more.

Brad Kearns: 48:14

There's research from Cooper Institute about this group called Super Exercisers and they studied these people that reportedly exercise 30 to 35 hours per week for decades. I'm envisioning like someone retired who walks five miles every morning and then walks the dog for another 30 minutes at night. Whoever these people are that can put in that much exercise, but they're super healthy and they have great longevity. Obviously it's not extreme exercise at that level. But the active lifestyle is number one. Then what happens when you exceed fat max heart rate routinely? Then you are getting into these glucose burning workouts that are turning you into a sugar burner and a sugar chomper. You are suppressing immune function in favor of this chronic stress hormone production and all the benefits kind of go out the window when you routinely exceed what is regarded as that cutoff between a stressful workout and a restorative workout.

Brad Kearns: 49:12

You mentioned all the fascination with zone two and it's wonderful to see this popularity now because the upper limit of zone two correlates with that fat max heart rate. But one contention I have with the fitness movement right now is no one's giving enough love to zone one and the amazing cardiovascular benefits you accrue when you're doing very comfortably paced zone one exercise, like getting out of the car, walking across the parking lot, sending text messages between your sets you're still in zone one and you're still getting all kinds of training effect to the fat burning enzymes and energy systems in the body. Here's an important anecdote or a comparison Elouid Kipchoge, the greatest marathon runner of all time, the guy who ran 159 in the marathon and two Olympic gold medals. He performs 83% of his weekly mileage in zone one, not zone two. Of his weekly mileage in zone one, not zone two, zone one, he does around 9% in zone two and 7% at the higher zones where he's really hitting it hard and doing these amazing track workouts. But what he's mostly doing for you and I, the direct comparison would be a medium to brisk walk.

Brad Kearns: 50:25

Now, for him, zone one is eight minute pace per mile at high altitude for an easy 15 mile run. Uh, because he's so physically conditioned. Yeah, and he's running a marathon, by the way, at a pace of four, 34 per mile. So an eight minute mile, even though it's pretty impressive to you and I, is way, way slower 63% slower than his marathon pace. Wait a second. Take the average marathoner and slow down 63%. Guess what you're doing? You're walking and you're training, just like the greatest runner of all time trains. There's the argument to emphasize walking and not worrying about having to shuffle down with this breaking stride because you're not adapted to run correctly anyway.

Philip Pape: 51:08

Yeah, I love it. Two things come to mind there, brad. One is recent research that confirmed again that the volume of movement, no matter the intensity, is pretty much equally effective for heart health. Right, which is what you're kind of saying. Like, you can walk, walk, walk, walk a ton and it's cool, like, and it's great for you. It also makes me think about the mode of movement and training. We've been talking about combining walking with lifting and sprinting. When you lift for 90 minutes like that's typical for me, a 90 minute session and I look at my Apple watch there are moments that I peak into zone two on a heavy deadlift or on, you know if the rest period short or whatever, so you're going to hit zone two and then sprinting, you're going to hit it, of course, maybe even zone three or four, because that's very short, yeah, whatever Zone five.

Philip Pape: 51:52

Zone five, and the percentages you mentioned actually align perfectly with that idea. Not that you have to measure it I don't even care about it, to be honest, and personally I don't know if you do but I just Not at all.

Brad Kearns: 52:03

No, I mean, the reason you need to care about heart rate is if you're at risk of getting into these chronic patterns. So when I was a pro triathlete, I obsessively measured my heart rate at every single workout, making sure that that beeper alarm did not go off, because that is the destruction of a desired effect of the training session and I could not get away with that stuff. And, interestingly, because I was so fit back when I was a young person and racing fast, I would do a lot of my workouts in zone one, just like Kipchoge, because zone two was six minute pace per mile and you can't pound the body with that kind of impact, even though it feels comfortable. And I'm still chit chatting with my training partner the training becomes too stressful and so the fitter you get, the more time you're spending building that aerobic base correctly. But again, we have to realize that the stress is relative, such that our protocol for preparing for our modest endurance goals would be a lot of walking and then an occasional effort where you push your body hard and you have a great effort doing the weekend 10k race or whatever it is, whatever your goals are.

Brad Kearns: 53:09

So I don't want to blanketly trash running.

Brad Kearns: 53:12

It's been a part of my life forever and I've got a lot of great benefits out of it. I have buddies from high school that are still running and enjoying it because they've been fit their whole life and the run is like a brisk walk for most people, but we have to honor that. Fat max heart rate is like a brisk walk for most people, but we have to honor that fat max heart rate. See what that represents for us in our own workout protocol and accordingly proceed at that pace rather than bullheadedly and doggedly assume a running pace because you think that you have to. And also what this means is the duration of the workout has to be at, or below fat max heart rate. So what this means is the duration of the workout has to be at, or below fat max heart rate. Right? So as we get tired as the workout proceeds, we have to slow down, and so you might be able to run one or two miles jogging before that heart watch beeps and then it's going to start beeping the rest of the workout.

Philip Pape: 54:00

Fair point, because the fixed point is that heart rate, which then shifts as you get fatigued.

Brad Kearns: 54:05

Yeah, and what a lot of people do is they say, hey, let's go and keep a nine minute per mile pace for our six mile run. Well, that doesn't make any sense to the body and the brain. The brain knows intensity and the heart knows intensity. So your nine minute pace should be nine nine, nine, 20, nine, 45, 10, 10, 15, whatever, because we're honoring heart rate, not blindly adhering to some pace. The only time that you should do that is in a race where you're trying to run your best time. Of course you want to run the same split per mile. That's how records are set and personal records are set, but training is entirely different than race model for most people two more things I want to cover before I do.

Philip Pape: 54:46

I wanted to say a nerdy thing. When you mentioned the fat max heart rate and you said you know, it's in the shape of and I thought you were going to say parabola, because I'm a math guy and you said upside down you, which is what most people would get.

Brad Kearns: 54:56

You're a good communicator, but like, I think, parabola, that's the word I was looking for. Oh, okay, okay.

Philip Pape: 55:02

But it's okay. You probably don't want to use it in most contexts, as people are like what are you talking about? Um, I was thinking of price optimization from economics, where you have like price economics major.

Brad Kearns: 55:13

So now I'm with you, man. I remember that, the price optimization curve. Yeah, I had a instructor with a british accent. Let's, let's, investigate our price optimization curve. Oh, you can't charge too much and make more money. I see, I see.

Philip Pape: 55:28

Unless you want to preserve your monopoly. It's Microsoft new back when they sold Windows 98. They sold it way cheaper than the price. Max profit maximization to keep the market, you know.

Brad Kearns: 55:37

Wow.

Philip Pape: 55:37

Anyway. So two final things. That one is let's talk about people who do love running or maybe are good at it or want to get good at it and still want to do it, and they're like I hear you, brad, but I still want to run. How do I do it? And then we can conclude with how do people incorporate walking? I think those are two good places to kind of end the.

Brad Kearns: 55:55

Nice. So you want permission to run? That's great. Let's first look at the propensity for an addictive approach. And we have a whole chapter in the book called the Ordeal of the Obligate Runner. And the very definition of addiction is requiring a hit or a dose in order to feel normal. So we think about the addicts on the street. They're drug addicts and they need it. They steal money and they want to go get high. Well, it's not really that they want to get high, that might have been at the start. They need to steal money and go get their drug to feel normal, to get to baseline.

Brad Kearns: 56:30

So if you're listening and you're wondering, am I an addict to exercise? If you feel cranky, irritable and out of sorts, if you miss your workout on a particular day, this is a sign of addiction or an unhealthy obsession with exercise. And that's very easy to drift in that direction, especially as your goals become more refined and sophisticated, as in you get more and more immersed into endurance culture or gym culture or CrossFit culture. So we have to be very careful and realize like and I had to learn this as a high performing athlete to like hey, look in the mirror and what are my goals? My goals are to excel in the races. And what are my goals? My goals are to excel in the races and I'm making a living at this, so it's very important. It's not just a hobby. So I need to take absolute best care of my body. So I had built in guardrails against overtraining, because if I disperse that energy in the workout, it was costing me a chance at winning prize money in the race. So you very quickly become a really, really smart trainer when you get your ass kicked in the race because you came in a little bit tired. So those are nice protocols to have and I'm just honoring that and sharing that with other people that like look, if you're here to do a favor for your health, to promote longevity, to prevent disease and to get the body composition of your dreams, these are all warranting a sensible approach rather than an overly stressful approach. So that permission to run let's really ask what you're all about. And if you want to really enjoy yourself and take care of yourself, you can slow down and it's okay and you're still getting a good workout. But that permission comes from how well you perform at fat max heart rate. Now here's another little side note. If you're not, if you're frustrated that you have to go so slow, you're allowed to do jog walks for the duration of your workout. So you can go and jog for 30 seconds and then walk it off just as your heart rate's about to climb and start beeping and ruining the intended metabolic effects of the workout. You walk for a minute or two or three or four minutes and then do another jog and then walk and then do another jog, so you get some running in. You get that sensation of running. That's great.

Brad Kearns: 58:41

The other side of the coin that you asked was how do we get a more walking-oriented lifestyle?

Brad Kearns: 58:47

I think we have to make a fundamental shift in our mindset and our philosophy to put walking in a different category.

Brad Kearns: 58:56

It's not like a fitness option, it's really like sleep.

Brad Kearns: 59:00

It's a human genetic expectation for health and when we don't move sufficiently during everyday life, we incur all manner of immediate consequences. One of them is a decline in cognitive function the brain research. There's one study from Stanford that I mentioned in the book you experience cognitive decline after 20 minutes of focusing on an intense, peak performance cognitive task. So if you do not take a break every 20 minutes from intense work, a break will be taken for you, and I find, with my tabs open on my browser, I have these high jump videos that I love watching, and I find myself watching them instead of focusing on a book manuscript or a podcast outline because I've been working for too long. Afternoon nap, which I'm a huge fan of, because I know when I come back I'm going to be kicking butt at a different level than if I were just powering through all these natural declines in cognitive function. So that's a big vote there for just sprinkling in short and longer walks throughout the day as a fundamental necessity to be at your best anyway.

Philip Pape: 1:00:06

You're a master at reframing this stuff. I really love this. I'm glad you came on to talk about this because just the way I mean think of walking as sleep Beautiful right Because people are thinking they have to almost force themselves, or it's their training or whatever, and I haven't tried to talk about it in language like walking should just naturally flow from the things you enjoy doing and let's find a way to incorporate into your life anyway.

Brad Kearns: 1:00:30

Yeah.

Philip Pape: 1:00:30

And not think of it as trying to get steps right, Like people just think of it as trying to get steps, even though it's a good way to measure a proxy.

Brad Kearns: 1:00:36

If that works for you, that's great. You know if some accountability is fine. My other favorite example is like having a dog. I'm a big dog lover. My dog of 15 years is gone now. She had a great run but like I didn't think for a second that I wasn't motivated enough or I was too busy to get that dog out twice a day like she deserved.

Brad Kearns: 1:00:57

It's like if you're going to adopt an animal, you have a commitment, a lifelong commitment, to give the animal the life it deserves. So I don't care if it's snowing or too hot or you're too busy. You get the dog out for their daily exercise and to serve something higher than yourself and your own fickle forces of like motivation and willpower. Like you mentioned at the start of the show, that's a no brainer. So I think the dog is in your corner. And how can you turn down? I mean, look the dog in the eye and say sorry, I'm too busy, I got a work deadline. I can't take you out for five minutes, boy, that'd be tough. I can never turn my dog's face down. And then the dog has that amazing circadian programming where, at 5.07, they know it's time to eat and they're like where's my bowl? It's after five, you're late. Oh, I love it, man.

Philip Pape: 1:01:40

Yeah, yeah. We have two little dogs, and one is really good at hopping up on you. She's so little she hops like a foot up under your calf Like it's time to go out, Even if you took her out an hour before. If it's the time, it's time, like it doesn't matter.

Philip Pape: 1:01:54

Oh man, this has been fantastic. So many amazing things here about not only why to do this, but just you know the sprinting and the lifting and the walking and what it means to be a human doing hard things but also doing things that are fulfilling for our lives. Being kind of an athlete of aging is the term I've heard some people use. Is there anything we didn't cover that you think is worthwhile, that you wanted to bring up.

Brad Kearns: 1:02:17

Well, I'm glad we got into sprinting because that's been my obsession of recent years and I think it just feels so good to kind of see yourself as an actual performing athlete, where I think in endurance scene we're just shufflers, heading down the sidewalk and accumulating miles and we're so far from you know, an actual athletic competition type of mentality and even if it's not a big part of your life, I promote, you know, with my whole message and you land on my website and it says pursue peak performance with passion throughout life.

Brad Kearns: 1:02:50

I think we need something to give us an edge and give us a little bit of nervousness and, you know, trepidation that we're putting ourselves out there and we're still competing at something and pursuing goals throughout life. Because what instead we see in culture are dudes watching the NFL for seven hours every weekend and perhaps offering up some stories about how, back in the day, you know, I was supposed to play quarterback for SC but I banged up my shoulder at the summer practice and that was the end of my career. Yeah, yeah, yeah, whatever, everyone's got a story and they have their heyday back in their youth and then the rest of the time we just sit around and watch others. I think there's a better way to go through life and to pick something that's scary and challenging, that you have to train for and prepare for, and that will get you out the door. When things are, you know, have a tendency to get comfortable and convenient.

Philip Pape: 1:03:41

So be an athlete, not a shuffler find an edge compete. Pursue your goal always be improving, always be improving. Pick something scary, pick something challenging. Totally on board with that philosophy, my friend.

Brad Kearns: 1:03:57

And where do you want folks to look you up? Well, we talked about Born to Walk and we have a great website called borntowalkbookcom where we have these bonus items. When you place an order at whatever retailer you like, you come back and you can get these great PDF download resources and shopping discounts and all kinds of things. I host the Be Rad podcast. I would love to have you on someday. We can talk more about strength training and that precise approach that you communicate, so maybe that'll be a good place for people to start and bradkearnscom all kinds of fun stuff going on and I'm so glad to connect with you here and great interview. Keep up doing the great work that you're doing.

Philip Pape: 1:04:32

Likewise, Brad BornToWalkBookcom. Get the free bonuses. Definitely get the book, the Be Rad podcast. I'd love to be on it. So thank you for the offer and this is a pleasure. I could talk to you for hours and, honestly, there are other topics like sprinting we could get into in the future, I'm sure.

Brad Kearns: 1:04:46

So thanks again for coming on Brad. Thanks a lot, Philip.

What Is Your Muscle Gain Efficiency (MGE) Score? (The Bottleneck Effect) | Ep 285

Get 14 days and your first challenge FREE in Wits & Weights Physique University (WWPU) plus the Muscle Gain Efficiency (MGE) calculator, a custom nutrition plan, monthly challenges, workouts, and coaching through the community. Tap on this special link for an exclusive 40% off rate for podcast listeners

🎓Learn about WWPU here, then use this super secret link for two weeks free and an exclusive 40% off rate

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Want to know if you're actually building muscle or just gaining fat during your bulk? 

Learn about the Muscle Gain Efficiency (MGE) score and how to use engineering's Bottleneck Effect to optimize your muscle-building system.

Discover how factors like training experience, frame size, and strength ratios influence your muscle-building potential, then learn to identify and fix what's limiting your gains.

Main Takeaways:

• You have a unique muscle-building potential

• Your Muscle Gain Efficiency (MGE) indicates how well you're gaining muscle vs. fat (how "efficient" you are)

• The 5 key bottlenecks that limit your muscle-building success

• Having a solid system + consistency = sustainable results

Timestamps: 

0:01 - Why we need a better way to measure muscle gains
3:05 - Introducing Muscle Gain Index (MGI) and Muscle Gain Efficiency (MGE)
7:31 - Interpreting your MGE score
9:46 - The 5 bottlenecks holding back your gains
19:13 - Using data to validate progress
21:30 - Tips to implement for your next muscle building phase

Get 14 days and your first challenge FREE in Wits & Weights Physique University (WWPU) plus the MGE calculator and a 40% off discount exclusive to podcast listeners

How Efficient Are Your Muscle Gains?

Most lifters track their weight during a bulk, but that number doesn’t tell the full story. Sure, the scale is moving, but how much of that weight is actual muscle, and how much is just fat?

That’s where Muscle Gain Efficiency (MGE) Score comes in—a system I developed using an engineering concept called the bottleneck effect to measure how efficiently you’re converting your calories into muscle. In this article, we’ll break down how to calculate your true muscle-building efficiency, what factors influence your potential, and how to fix the biggest roadblocks holding back your gains.

Your Body is a “Muscle-Building Factory”

Think of your body as a muscle-building factory. Every factory has:

• A theoretical maximum output (how much muscle it can build under ideal conditions)

• An efficiency rating (how well it actually converts inputs—like food and training—into muscle)

Your Muscle Gain Index (MGI) represents your potential for muscle growth, while your Muscle Gain Efficiency (MGE) tells you how well you’re achieving that potential.

MGE is a score from 0 to 1 that represents the ratio of muscle to total weight gained.

• 0.1–0.3: Poor efficiency (mostly fat gain, minimal muscle)

• 0.4–0.6: Moderate efficiency (balanced muscle and fat gain)

• 0.7+: High efficiency (maximizing muscle gain while minimizing fat)

• >1.0: Recomp territory—building muscle while losing fat

The higher your score, the more efficiently you’re packing on lean mass.

What’s Bottlenecking Your Gains?

If your MGE score is lower than expected, something is slowing down your muscle-building process. Here are the five bottlenecks that could be limiting your gains:

1. Training Bottleneck (Weakness or Poor Program)

• Not following a structured progressive overload program

• Avoiding compound lifts like squats, deadlifts, and presses

• Lifting too light or not training close enough to failure

Fix: Use strength-based programming, track your strength-to-bodyweight ratio, and progressively overload every lift.

2. Nutrition Bottleneck (Inconsistent Eating or Poor Macros)

• Inconsistent calorie intake (some days too high, some too low)

• Not eating enough protein (aim for 0.7–1g per pound of body weight)

• Gaining too fast or too slow, affecting muscle-to-fat ratio

Fix: Plan meals ahead, stay consistent with protein, and aim for controlled weight gain (0.5–1 lb/week).

3. Recovery Bottleneck (Sleep & Stress Issues)

• Poor sleep quality or low energy levels

• Constant fatigue or the need for frequent deloads

• Chronic high stress raising cortisol and slowing muscle growth

Fix: Improve sleep quality, manage stress, and prioritize rest days. If you constantly need deloads, adjust training volume.

4. Body Composition Bottleneck (Starting Too High or Low in Body Fat)

• Too lean: Your body resists gaining muscle to preserve energy

• Too high in body fat: Poor nutrient partitioning, leading to more fat gain

• Hormonal imbalances affecting metabolism and muscle protein synthesis

Fix: Optimize body fat levels before bulking, use phased nutrition strategies, and strength train year-round to maintain a high metabolic rate.

5. System Integration Bottleneck (Lack of Strategy or Tracking)

• No long-term plan for muscle growth

• Not tracking key metrics like weight trends, strength progress, or macros

• Following a randomized approach instead of a structured one

Fix: Use a tracking system, periodize your nutrition and training, and follow a step-by-step approach to muscle gain.

How to Use MGE to Optimize Your Bulk

To maximize your muscle-building efficiency:

1. Track your weight and body fat over the course of your bulk

2. Calculate your MGE score (inside my Physique University calculator)

3. Identify your biggest bottleneck (training, nutrition, recovery, body composition, or strategy)

4. Fix one thing at a time and reassess every 4–6 weeks

The Big Takeaway

Muscle gain isn’t just about eating more—it’s about gaining efficiently. Your MGE score helps you measure progress beyond the scale, ensuring you’re actually building muscle instead of just getting fluffy.

If you’ve ever felt like your gains aren’t what they should be, this is your tool to fix it.

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Transcript

Philip Pape: 0:01

Let's say you've been building muscle, tracking your weight, watching it go up steadily during your bulk and the number on the scale is going up, but it doesn't tell you how much of that gain is actually muscle. What if there was a way to know exactly how efficient your muscle building efforts are? Using an engineering concept called the bottleneck effect, I've created a system that measures your true muscle building potential and efficiency, and today I am introducing how the MGE score muscle gain efficiency can tell you if you're mostly building muscle or just gaining fat. You'll learn the factors that determine your baseline muscle mass potential, how to calculate your efficiency score and, most importantly, how to identify and fix whatever's holding back your gains. Welcome to Wits and Weights, the show that helps you build a strong, healthy physique using evidence, engineering and efficiency.

Philip Pape: 1:04

I'm your host, philip Pape, and today I'm introducing a revolutionary way to measure your muscle building success. I want you to think of your body as a muscle building factory. Engineers know that every factory has a theoretical maximum output and actual production efficiency. Your body's no different. There's your potential for muscle growth, which I call the muscle gain index, and then there's how efficiently you're reaching that potential your muscle gain efficiency, both of which are new scores that I've created. They are part of a spreadsheet, a tool where you can plug in some numbers between the beginning and end of your bulk and see how efficient you were at gaining muscle. Now, before we dive into the score and how to use it, if you want to actually access that complete calculator, along with some other evidence-based tracking tools like a body composition tracker and a biofeedback tracker, they're only available in Wits and Weights Physique University. I saved my most juicy choice calculators for that group and all you have to do is join, and I don't know what you're waiting for. It is super affordable and it is extremely valuable. Go to whatsoeightscom slash physique or click the link in my show notes to learn more about the Physique University, where you can take your tracking and results to the next level. This is only for people who are lifters, who are frustrated that they haven't quite gotten the fat loss or muscle gain output that they want, and we help you dial it in. We onboard you, we take you through a step-by-step method and process based on evidence and we tell you exactly how to measure and calculate those things so that you have utmost confidence and no more ambiguity or questions about what your metabolism is doing, how to train, how to eat, and then you can get that result with tons of support and accountability. So if you want to join Wits and Weights Physique University and get access to the exact calculator I'm talking about today, check out the link in the show notes or go to witsandweightcom slash physique.

Philip Pape: 3:05

Now, stick around anyway, because I am going to explain generally how this works and you'll understand what matters. So, whether you have the calculator or not, so that you know how to go into your next muscle building phase and do it efficiently. So I'm going to start by understanding our theoretical maximum output. Right, if we think of the factory analogy here, because this is an engineering episode, what we want to do is avoid bottlenecks. We want to understand the maximum, but then we also want to avoid bottlenecks.

Philip Pape: 3:36

So the theoretical maximum output for you is your muscle gain index, mgi. Muscle gain index, mgi. This actually tells us how much of your lean body mass is likely skeletal muscle mass, based on key factors that influence muscle building potential. Okay, listen to that again. When you gain weight to build muscle, you're going to gain some body fat and you're going to gain some lean mass. What I do with the muscle gain index is tease out how much of that lean mass is likely skeletal muscle mass, so actual muscle mass, because not all of it is muscle. Some of it is bone, fluid, organ, other tissue, and we need to understand how much is muscle.

Philip Pape: 4:16

And the factors that affect your muscle are like, let's say, the specifications of your factory's machines, right? So there's a list of these. First there's whether you're male or female, because that's going to affect your baseline muscle mass potential, not, I repeat, not the rate at which you gain muscle. Ladies, men, it's exactly the same, no matter your sex, no matter your age. What's different is the baseline potential, because men start with a higher baseline, given that they have more muscle mass, but it's only about 2%. Believe it or not, it's only about 2%, so it's actually quite negligible.

Philip Pape: 4:50

Age is the next factor that's going to impact your muscle building capacity, because the older we get and by older I mean over 50, over 60, your muscle building capacity declines just a tad, just a tiny, tiny bit. But guess what? It's always there. You always can build muscle to the day you die, all the way through into your 90s, we've seen, but it does have a small impact less you're stronger and then you might. So there's kind of this counteracting forces going on which leads me to your strength to body weight ratio, and we can measure that through your squat or we can measure it through your deadlift, for example, and that's your current performance. That is also going to affect your muscle gain efficiency. Then we have your frame size, and that can be measured by your wrist. That can tell us do you have a small, medium or large frame? And that also determines how much of that percentage of lean mass is skeletal mass as opposed to maybe just bone right or representing something that is not muscle mass. And then, finally, your current body fat percentage, which influences hormones. It also influences your muscle building efficiency, your muscle building efficiency.

Philip Pape: 6:04

So the muscle gain index that I came up with is a formula that accounts for all of these things. So in the calculator I created, you basically plug those in and it gives you an estimated skeletal muscle mass out of your lean mass and it pushes it up or down depending on all of these factors. So a young male with years of training experience and strong lifts might have very high potential, while someone starting out would have room to grow but the benefit of newbie gains. So it's kind of balanced between all of these. So that's kind of the potential of your body, of your factory, and now we have to measure how efficiently that it's running. And this is your MGE, your muscle gain efficiency. That number tells us how much of your weight change is actually muscle and how efficient it is. So it's roughly a number between zero and one, the way that I came up with it, and this accounts for the changes in your muscle mass, the changes in your total body weight, and whether you're bulking, cutting or recomping as well, because I don't want to ding you if you are cutting and of course you've retained or gained a little muscle mass, even though it's small. The fact that you're cutting means you might have been pretty efficient at cutting, gaining muscle, because you did better than the average, if that makes sense. So I'll give you some real world example, right, or examples for this score, this muscle gain efficiency A score near the bottom, near about 0.1, remember this goes around zero to one.

Philip Pape: 7:31

There are possibilities of going negative and possibilities of going one, but those are very extreme cases. So a score near 0.1 just means a very poor bulk. It means you gained almost all fat. A score in the middle, around 0.5, is hey, this is a pretty good bulk, it's pretty decent bulk. You've balanced your muscle and fat gain. A score above 0.6 shows high efficiency, right, you're actually gaining a lot more muscle than fat. And then, if you're like re-comping, you could see scores over one, which is like the holy grail of gaining muscle while losing fat.

Philip Pape: 8:04

But the asterisk on that, folks, when you think about that, is the quantity of muscle might not be that much. In other words, it's, it's very efficient, but because you're not actually gaining weight, you have to multiply that efficiency by how much weight you're gaining, which is small. It's going to stretch out the duration by months or years to actually gain the same amount of muscle as somebody who's at like a 0.6, but gaining weight faster, if that makes sense, right. So I know it sounds a little bit confusing. If you have the spreadsheet, it makes total sense. It actually calculates it for you and then it says oh, here's your number and here's how efficient it is, and here's what you might do differently next time. Um, but, and the other thing I want to clarify is a 0.5 doesn't mean it's like 50% lean mass, 50% fat. However, it does almost mean you've gained 50% muscle to fat. You get what I'm saying. So it's a little bit of a different way to look at the data that you can't just easily calculate from knowing your body fat.

Philip Pape: 9:03

All right, so when the score is lower than expected, something is bottlenecking your gains, and that is really the point of this episode is not to say, hey, you know, here's a calculator, here's a formula. I'm not even going through the math and, honestly, even if you don't have the spreadsheet, you can still do the right things to have the best success. I just know some people love to have that feedback and that data to really dive in and level up to the next level, and that's what we help people do in our coaching program and in the Physique University. So if that's you listening, you're like, yeah, I need to get to that level. Definitely reach out and join, definitely reach out and join. But if your score is lower, uh, there are five potential bottlenecks.

Philip Pape: 9:46

All right, the first bottleneck is the training bottleneck, and that is where you basically you're weak. You just don't have a high squat to body weight ratio. Something has stalled out, right, you haven't either that or you're a newbie. And again, I want to kind of separate training age, because if you are fairly new to this, you're going to gain muscle fairly quickly, but you still have to be on the right program. You still have to have the right progression, the right amount of volume, incorporating the big systemic, compound movements, proper intensity. All of that is basically going to fix this issue. So if weakness, if a lack of strength, is a thing preventing you from gaining muscle, you are always going to be stalled and you are always going to gain more fat than muscle in the future when you try to gain weight and this could have been your problem most of your life. If you're not training properly, if you just hit the gym randomly, if you just use the machines without regard for progress over time, that's what's going to happen.

Philip Pape: 10:38

Somebody in our Facebook group just posted hey, I want to go into a fat loss phase. I'm not sure how to train and, by the way, for the last two months, even though I'm not in fat loss, I haven't made any progress on my lifts and I said whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Okay, you're not even ready for fat loss. My man, like we. We got to fix that before you do fat loss, before you do a gaining phase, whatever. So that's the training bottleneck that's. That's a big one for a lot of people. And again, in you know, in our coaching, we take you through the steps to find out where's the issue for you. Is it your form? Is it your progression? Are you not understanding how to, like, use micro plates or something to go up at the right level? Um, are you even using the right program, et cetera, right?

Philip Pape: 11:20

The second bottleneck is nutrition. So this is where you have either your weight gain is too rapid or you don't have enough protein, or you're very inconsistent with your eating. You know, inconsistency is the big one here and the fix, of course, is consistency with your protein at that 0.7 to 1 gram per pound, a controlled rate of gain when you're bulking or when you're cutting, of course. But one of the problems people have is they bulk in a very seesaw roller coaster way where they'll eat a lot more food on certain days than other and on the weekly average they're kind of bulking and on certain days they're way overconsking and on certain days they're way over consuming and certain days they're actually under consuming. It just creates chaos to their body. Where you're not efficiently gaining, you're not using meal planning. That's. The fix is to use meal planning, meal prep, always plan ahead and know what you're gonna eat you know, not down to like every single ingredient, but it could just be the general foods or types of foods and making sure to plan ahead.

Philip Pape: 12:20

The third bottleneck is recovery. So poor sleep quality, constant fatigue, no rest days. You know, when I hear someone say I have to have deloads constantly, that's a big red flag. You shouldn't need deloads very much at all, depending on the program, or ever if it's built into the program. And this could definitely be a different issue related to sleep or stress, or the wrong kind of lift for you, or pushing too hard and trying to overreach or you're not taking enough rest, and so obviously the fix here is that consistent sleep, bedtime, wake time, consistent amount of sleep that you need. Maybe it's seven, maybe it's eight hours, you know, maybe it's six and a half. Having deloads, yes, if you need them. I talked about this in episode I think it was 282, about the only strength standard you need. We talked about progressive overload and I briefly discussed deloads in there about how, ideally, if you structure your program the right way, you hardly ever need them, and then, of course, managing your stress, whether that's managing your perceived stress, having stress coping mechanisms, tracking the data associated with stress, like HRV, and focusing on sleep to improve your stress, and so on. Right, so that's the recovery bottleneck that's going to hold you back from building meaningful muscle. Yes, even when you're gaining and eating a lot of food, improper recovery could happen, because now you're able to train much harder, but you're also able to push past the limit much more easily. Much harder, but you're also able to push past the limit much more easily.

Philip Pape: 13:39

Bottleneck number four out of our five bottlenecks is the body composition bottleneck, where, if your body fat is too high or too low, or you have poor nutrient partitioning, or you have hormonal issues, things like that, there could be a lot of different causes depending on the person, and so that's why I lumped it kind of into its own category. It could it could have to be with the fact that you are not optimizing the body fat range to be in for you. Like some people say well, I have to get down to X percent body fat and I want to live there. Well, for you that might be way too shredded and unhealthy. For another person, it might be perfectly normal. So we have to have realistic expectations.

Philip Pape: 14:18

Also, phasing, periodizing your approach I mean that is the bread and butter of what we do in our coaching is we develop periods and phases for you. I mean, when I give you your nutrition plan when you join Physique University, one of the main features in there is explaining what to do over each various range of weeks, like weeks one through four. You're going to do this, weeks five through 12, you're going to do this and we phase the approach to kind of ease you in properly. So you're doing the right things and developing the right habits and it also works really well with your body, your hormones, your body composition. And the last thing as part of this bottleneck is addressing hormone health. And I do love to address hormone health with lifestyle, which means strength training, lots of walking, managing stress and eating plenty of food, first to see what gets normalized, before you then say, well, okay, I still have certain hormones that are far out of whack. I need HRT or some sort of treatment. So that's the body composition bottleneck.

Philip Pape: 15:11

And, by the way, ladies who are in peri and post-menopause, body composition is going to get worse if you're not lifting weights and it's the main reason your metabolism drops during that time of life, because your muscle mass drops, your fat goes up, even if you maintain the same scale weight, and then it does a number with your hormones and everything just cascades. You know, thyroid, cortisol, insulin it all cascades and a lot of times all you've got to do is take off some of that stress and start lifting weights. Really, that's sometimes what the main fix is. The last bottleneck is the system integration bottleneck. This is about your overall system.

Philip Pape: 15:48

We talk about system engineering and physique engineering and that is your goals, your approach, your consistency. You know if your goal is mismatched to what you're doing, or you're trying to go too quickly for the quick fix, or the approach you're trying to take doesn't quite jive with the evidence or your body, or you're not consistent, those are all gonna be bottlenecks to gaining muscle. And the fix is gonna be having all of these aligned with you, with your lifestyle, with your body, with your needs, with your preferences, focusing on one phase at a time, one goal at a time and, of course, tracking and measuring everything that matters. Tracking and measuring everything that matters and I could have put this at the top of the list everyone because 90% of the time, when someone reaches out, they're new to the community, they're new to the podcast and they say I'm struggling with X, maybe X is binging on the weekends, maybe it's, you know, with their lifting. I say, are you tracking? And they're like, oh no, I'm not tracking. What should I track? Right, if they're open to it. I hope you're open to it and then I'll give some free resources on how to do that.

Philip Pape: 16:51

One of the best resources is my Nutrition 101 guide. If you're looking for something free, go. If you're looking for something free, go to whatsoeightscom, slash free and you can find that it actually tells you how to set up your calories and macros, the correct way dynamically to work with your body, and then how to do it for the different phases. So all of these things, these system things I know it sounds complicated if you're new to this or if this is the first episode you've ever heard of my podcast, but it really does put you in a situation where it's sustainable rather than a quick fix, where it's part of your life, where you don't have to cut out all carbs or all plants or whatever extreme diet and you can just focus, actually have the confidence, actually make the progress. Everything is aligned and part of why you're able to be successful is because you know what the heck is going on and you know what's going in your mouth and you know what your squat was two weeks ago, right, and you're tracking and measuring the right things, all right.

Philip Pape: 17:43

So that's kind of the meat of this episode was what the bottlenecks might be that would prevent your muscle gain efficiency from being higher than it could be. And for most people that means if it's like, as in the 0.2, 0.3 range, we can get it up into the 0.5 to 0.7 range and you're golden, like getting it to 0.8, 0.9,. That's usually not realistic for most people, it's just it's kind of the extremes of the range. So, to use this score, if you have our calculator, if you're in Physique University and you actually have the calculator, the way it would work is you would enter your numbers from before and after, right, or you can do it in the middle of a bulk to see how efficient it is going, because a bulk is usually six, nine, 12 months anyway. So if you're three months in, you can calculate how efficient you are. So you're going to calculate your muscle gain index, that's, your skeletal muscle mass that you're possibly gaining. That's your potential. Then you're going to see how efficient your muscle gain efficiency is and then you can use that to reverse, engineer what your bottleneck is and fix one thing at a time and reassess every four to six weeks and you're golden. That's how we do. That's how we do it. It's continuous improvement and feedback.

Philip Pape: 18:49

So what's really fascinating? When it comes down to cause, I'm so nerdy and data centric. I love my Excel spreadsheets and, by the way, this is an Excel spreadsheet and even if you're not in quote unquote into that stuff, having these different angles of data can reveal patterns that are just not visible with the stuff everybody uses. Like they're not going to be visible. If you just take your scale weight right.

Philip Pape: 19:13

If I have a client who's frustrated because their gains are quote unquote slow but their MGE score shows that they're actually building very efficiently, let's say at a 0.6, well above average. And we look at all the data, how it correlates, and we're like, actually you're doing a fantastic job. It's just you don't quite have the patience. Yet this is the first time you've gone through it. Your expectations are skewed by social media. But understanding your true efficiency, then it. Then it changes their perspective and it changes their motivation. In fact, I just had a client. We just ended our six month um contract together, um, you know, and we're parting ways amicably, like I do with many clients who they learn what they need to learn. They're they're good to go and they they're, you know, happy to tell others about me and move on, and that's what I love to see.

Philip Pape: 20:00

You fire me as a coach and she, along the way, she always had a little bit of frustration where it seemed like things weren't quite moving. And at the end of it all, we crunched the numbers and we said, wow, you dropped 9% body fat and, by the way, she only weighed like 120 pounds when we started. So she was already pretty light and lean like 120 pounds when we started. So she was already pretty light and lean. She's shorter, she's a leaner frame and we had to take it very reasonably during the fat loss, so she wasn't down at 800 calories and at the end of the day over you know a three, four month fat loss phase, pretty typical she lost 9% of her body fat and, what's interesting, it wasn't just fat loss. She actually gained, I think, three and a half or four pounds of muscle as part of it. So her scale weight didn't drop as much as she expected when we started, but she was actually happier with the results because she was leaner than when we started, like quite a bit, and so all of this stuff is super fascinating.

Philip Pape: 20:54

It's why I love frameworks and the engineering side of it all. It strips away the emotion. It gives us concrete data to work with. Your body is so sophisticated it's the most sophisticated factory that you'll ever operate and it deserves this level of analysis, at least initially, so that you can know what the heck is going on if you're struggling right. It's not necessarily a long-term thing, although many of us get the bug and we always want to have our numbers and things like that. It's really about becoming more in tune with yourself, whether it's through numbers or through journaling or through whatever method of tracking makes sense for you, but it's doing something to get that feedback All right.

Philip Pape: 21:30

So, as we wrap up, remember you have a muscle building potential and there's a certain efficiency you can go at to reach that potential, and bottlenecks are what limit your efficiency.

Philip Pape: 21:40

So, understanding the five bottlenecks, you can then focus on one of them at a time and slowly crack the armor holding you back from building as much muscle as you want to build. If you want to calculate your own MGA score, if you love data, like me, if you're nerdy about this, if you really want to level it up, take it to the next level. This, if you really want to level it up, take it to the next level. If you want to access our complete suite of tracking tools and, more importantly, the accountability support strategy to actually get the result you want for fat loss and building muscle, join Wits and Weights Physique University today. Head to witsandweightscom, slash physique or click the link in the show notes to learn more about WWPU and start optimizing your gains. Until next time, keep using your wits lifting those weights and remember, in the factory of your physique, removing those bottlenecks will help your gains soar. I'll talk to you next time here on the Wits and Weights Podcast.

My Hardest Bulk Ever (The Hidden "Energy Drain" When Your Metabolism Fights Back) | Ep 284

Get your free Muscle-Building Nutrition Blueprint at witsandweights.com/muscle to optimize your nutrition for maximum muscle growth while minimizing fat gain.

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Learn how your metabolism can fight back during an aggressive muscle-building phase by dramatically increasing energy expenditure, even when you're doing everything right. 

Discover the hidden factors driving this metabolic adaptation and how to overcome them.

Main Takeaways:

• Your maintenance calories can increase significantly during a bulk due to metabolic adaptation (400+ calories)

• High-quality muscle gains are still possible even when facing metabolic resistance

• The 3 key factors that drive increased energy expenditure during a building phase

• How to successfully break through a hardgaining plateau

Episode Resources:

• Try MacroFactor for free with code WITSANDWEIGHTS

• Download my Muscle-Building Nutrition Blueprint

Timestamps:

0:00 - The unexpected metabolic challenge
3:10 - Real data from my current bulk
8:33 - The hidden energy drain revealed
14:50 - 3 factors driving metabolic adaptation
16:48 - Strategic approach to overcoming plateaus
21:27 - Being realistic about timelines and goals
23:19 - Key lessons and broader applications

When Your Bulk Hits a Wall (How to Overcome Metabolic Adaptation)

Bulking should be simple, right?

Eat more, train hard, and watch the muscle pile on.

But what happens when your body seems to fight back, burning through your surplus like a furnace and refusing to let the scale budge? That’s exactly what I ran into during my latest bulk, and if you’ve ever stalled while trying to gain size, this one’s for you.

Why Metabolic Adaptation Isn't Just a Fat Loss Problem

We talk about metabolic adaptation all the time when it comes to fat loss. Your body gets efficient, burns fewer calories, and makes it harder to drop weight. But the same thing happens in reverse when you’re gaining—just with a different set of challenges.

Instead of holding onto energy, your body ramps up its calorie burn to keep weight gain in check. Here’s how it happens:

• Increased NEAT (Non-Exercise Activity Thermogenesis) – More movement, fidgeting, pacing, and subtle activity burns extra calories without you realizing it.

• Higher Training Demand – As you get stronger and lift heavier weights, your energy output climbs, especially if you’re running a high-volume program like I am.

• Metabolic Inefficiency – The more food you eat, the harder your body has to work to digest and process it, leading to an increase in calorie burn.

My Bulk Was Textbook… Until It Wasn’t

I started my bulk in late October, aiming for 1 pound of weight gain per week. Everything was on track—strength was up, muscle was growing, and my body fat stayed in check.

Then, around mid-January, the scale stopped moving. Despite eating in a consistent surplus, I hit a wall. And it wasn’t just daily fluctuations—my trend weight refused to climb, meaning my body had found a way to burn through the extra energy I was throwing at it.

My estimated maintenance calories jumped from 2,550 in early December to over 3,000 by February—a massive increase in energy expenditure. And despite pushing food intake higher, my metabolism adapted to keep me in check.

How to Overcome a Bulk Plateau

If you’re running into this same issue, here’s what you need to do:

1. Dominate Your Calories

• Eat early and often—front-load your meals to stay ahead of your burn rate.

• Focus on calorie-dense foods like whole milk, fattier cuts of meat, olive oil, and nut butters.

• Use liquid calories—shakes, smoothies, or even whole milk can make hitting your target easier.

• Add extra snacks with minimal fullness impact, like dried fruit, granola, and dark chocolate.

2. Track Your Trends and Adjust

• Don’t just look at daily weigh-ins—track your trend weight over weeks.

• Increase calories proactively, not reactively. When weight gain slows, add 100-300 calories immediately before you fall behind.

• If eating more becomes unbearable, dial back activity (lower step count, adjust training volume).

3. Reframe the Challenge

• A fast metabolism isn’t a bad thing—it’s a sign you’ve built muscle and increased metabolic capacity.

• Focus on performance. If strength is climbing and body composition looks solid, don’t stress over a short-term stall.

• Keep your bulk timeline flexible—if you don’t hit your exact weight goal by a set date, it’s not the end of the world.

My Final Thoughts

Bulking isn’t just about shoveling in more food. Your metabolism adapts to fight back, sometimes in ways that make progress frustrating. But if you recognize the signs early and adjust accordingly, you can push through and keep growing.

This isn’t a failure—it’s proof that your body is adapting, and that’s a good thing. Keep eating, keep training, and keep pushing forward.

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Transcript

Philip Pape: 0:02

Everyone talks about metabolic adaptation during fat loss, but no one warns you about what happens during an aggressive bulk. Here's what's happening right now Despite eating in a clear surplus and hitting PRs in the gym, my metabolism has cranked up to burn through everything I throw at it, my maintenance calories have shot up multiple hundreds of calories in just a few months, and today we're uncovering the hidden ways your body fights back during a muscle building phase and why, even when you're doing everything right getting stronger, building muscle, eating more than ever the scale can suddenly stop moving If you're trying to gain some muscle or push past a plateau in a bulk. You're going to learn exactly how to identify and overcome these metabolic roadblocks. Welcome to Wits and Weights, the show that helps you build a strong, healthy physique using evidence, engineering and efficiency. I'm your host, philip Hape, and today we're examining a fascinating phenomenon that is happening right now in my current bulk and I just had to press record and talk to you about it I am at least 14, let's see as I record this 15 or 16 weeks into what started as a textbook gaining phase, the strength gains have been very consistent, doing great in the gym, about to hit new PRs, the muscle gains are there, based on all of my measurements, but my body has thrown me a metabolic curve ball that I guess I didn't quite see coming. I've had situations in the past where I hit plateaus and hard gaining phases, but this one was quite persistent and I didn't wanna just record another podcast about eating more food. I think I wanted to explain the complex ways that your metabolism adapts during a bulk, because we talk about metabolic adaptation during fat loss all the time, but there's this reversed way that that happens during a bulk for different reasons and in different ways. That I think is important to understand, and these adaptations can sometimes derail your progress because they put you into what looks like a plateau and it could last for a long time if you don't know what to look for and what to do.

Philip Pape: 2:14

Now, before we dive in, I have created something for those of you wanting to maximize your muscle building results. It's one of my most popular downloads. It's called the Mus building nutrition blueprint. It lays out the exact steps to optimize nutrition, training and recovery for maximizing your gains while minimizing fat, and I keep it updated with the latest evidence. For example, what are the optimal rates of gain? If you want to understand a little bit of the science behind effective bulking, if you want to avoid some of the common pitfalls and if you want to see an entire appendix of how a real bulk was actually done successfully, with all the numbers, download your free copy at witsandweightscom slash muscle or click the link in the show notes for your free muscle building nutrition blueprint Again witsandweightscom slash muscle, or you could always click the link in the show notes.

Philip Pape: 3:10

So I want to start with some real experience, some real data, and share that with you. Because the numbers I'm a big numbers guy. I'm always tracking as much as I need to to measure progress, and they always tell you a story about what's happening, and in this case it's a story about how our bodies adapt during what I'll call an aggressive bulk. I started this gaining phase back on my birthday, october 26th, and I weighed about 175 pounds on the scale. I'm 5'9", I'm 44 years old Actually, I turned 44 on that day, obviously and the first 11 weeks or so went pretty much according to plan or maybe not 11, maybe 9 or 10 weeks. I went from 175 to about 189 by mid-January, and so I gained about exactly a pound per week. Exactly what I was going for right at the upper end of the new sweet spot and I say new because I used to be more conservative. Now I push things a little more aggressively for me and my clients, knowing that the science says it and reality says it, we could actually go at a decent clip to support real growth of muscle but avoid adding excessive fat. But only if you're precise about it and you're tracking your numbers. That's the key. And if you just kind of wing it and lag behind what's actually happening, it's not going to work as effectively. And so I would say the quality of my gains has been pretty solid this time around even more so than last time Based on body fat calculations using the Navy formula.

Philip Pape: 4:32

It's very simple For men that's just your neck and your waist, for women it's neck, waist and hips. Plug it into a calculator online. I actually have one in my website too, witsandweightscom, and the trend is what matters, not the actual numbers but the trend. And if you go by that, I've added about nine pounds of lean body mass, which is about 58% of my total weight gain as lean tissue, which, for being an intermediate maybe advanced trainee, I guess I'll go with intermediate it's a pretty good ratio right. Most would consider that pretty optimal. If you're more on the beginner side, you would expect to gain a little more, Keeping in mind that that 58 or that 60% lean mass it's not all muscle. There's a small percentage of that that is going to be fluid. That will come off later on when I do a fat loss phase, but a lot of it is muscle. So I'm happy with that and my measurements confirm this efficient gain.

Philip Pape: 5:22

My chest has gone up by about an inch and a half Um, and I'm not very good at developing my chest, I'll be honest. I'm more of a back guy, arm guy. Um, chest and legs are where I struggle and you don't have to work a little bit harder. My biceps have grown by half an inch. Thighs have added about one and a half inches.

Philip Pape: 5:37

You know some of you may say, oh, that's not a big deal. Others may say, oh, that's great. Keeping in mind I've been running primarily a strength-based program to build my peak, not a hypertrophy program. So I'm not really trying to add visible mass, especially pumping it up with fluid. I'm really looking to push. My lifts and my singles are going to be tested in a few weeks and I'm very confident that I'm going to hit new PRs based on my progress so far.

Philip Pape: 6:03

My waist has only gone up an inch and a half at most, so that tells you. I'm also having minimal fat gain around my midsection and I can see it in the mirror. This is the first bulk I've ever done this aggressively where I don't see a lot of fluff, which is pretty cool. It's kind of a validating thing where the more you do this and the more muscle you have, the less you have to be concerned about the fat that you add during a bulk. Okay, so that's the setup, but then something interesting happened because, despite continuing to eat in a surplus in the proper aggressive surplus I'm tracking with Macrofactor. By the way, guys, if you don't use Macrofactor, it's the only app that exists that can actually calculate your dynamic metabolism based on what you eat and what you weigh exists that can actually calculate your dynamic metabolism based on what you eat and what you weigh, and then it adjusts the gain or the surplus based on your true rate of gain, which is important in a surplus, because muscle and fat have different densities and everyone gains different ratio of muscle to fat, and so an app that can do that is incredible.

Philip Pape: 6:59

Of course, I'm an affiliate, so full disclosure. You can support me using my code wits and weights, all one word macro factor, downloaded from the app store. Anyway, I use it myself and despite consistently getting stronger in the gym and eating in, this surplus was a decent surplus my weight started to plateau, and by weight I don't mean my scale weight, I mean my trend weight. My scale weight always fluctuates, but you can tell when it's starting to fluctuate and it's like up down, up down within the same range for a while. That's telling you there's a plateau. And we're talking about this happening for almost a month now, and I know what to do during a plateau.

Philip Pape: 7:34

I eat more food. I get ahead of it. I always advise my clients when I see this we just need to get ahead of it. A hundred calories, 200, sometimes 300 calories, because your expenditure is starting to skyrocket, your metabolism is going up, and that's what I started to do. I just started to eat a heck of a lot more food, and part of the challenge there is I eat a lot of whole foods. So unless I add a ton more junk food or processed food, it's a challenge, right, but I'm not complaining about that I know to do that I can make it happen.

Philip Pape: 8:02

Now, the 189,. We're still not near my target of 195 to 200, which I had almost planned to reach by now before I transitioned to the maintenance phase, and so that's why I wanted to make this episode for any of you struggling with gaining right now. So here's where the story gets fascinating. Now I want to talk about this hidden energy drain that I teased you about in the podcast title. So I've been using Macrofactor tracking my nutrition and my expenditure throughout this bulk. The app calculates your expenditure based on your actual intake and your weight trend.

Philip Pape: 8:33

As I mentioned, you know one of the most powerful ways that we have to understand metabolism in real time, short of getting measured with a mask and or doubly labeled water or something crazy like that in a lab. So my expenditure started at 2,640, so 2,640 calories in October, and you might say, oh, that doesn't sound that high. But look, this was after a long cut, so it had come down, and then, after a little bit of a roller coaster, it actually dropped up, went up and went down to about 2,550 in early December which, by the way, that can happen. So don't get worried if your expenditure drops at the beginning of a bulk, um, that's normal. Your body's becoming more efficient, some other stuff is happening. But then the wild, uh, rocket launch occurred.

Philip Pape: 9:17

Okay, my expenditure started climbing steadily, week after week, until it hit nearly 3000 calories, and that's about a 400 calorie increase in maintenance, um, in a very short period, very, very quickly. And oh, and, that's, that's a net, by the way. So that's, it's more like 450, and it's actually above 3000 now. So we're pushing a 500 calorie change. So think about that for a second. My body's now burning extra four or 500 calories every single day compared to when I started the bulk. Even when I intentionally overeat by two to 400 calories above my target surplus, my body finds a way to burn through it all. The metabolism is incredibly adaptive and right now mine is working overtime. Right it's it's almost to my detriment.

Philip Pape: 10:00

And then what makes this more interesting is my diet quality is solid. Is it better than ever? I think it's pretty steady state, like generally. I, you know, I want to be a good example for my clients. I eat 80, 90% whole foods, a lot of fruits and vegetables, a lot of whole food based grains and, of course, lots of meat and dairy and fiber. I try to get you know at least 30 grams of fiber a day and this is fantastic for health, for digestion, for metabolic health, for hormones all that and even for your hunger signals to an extent. But it actually then creates another interesting challenge for gaining weight, in that they're nutrient-dense foods, so they're also higher volume foods and they're more filling. They have a higher thermic effect, so you're burning even more calories and sometimes it makes it hard to reach the high calorie targets. Now, like I said, that's not the fundamental issue that I'm having. I'm willing to make that trade-off right For long-term health and performance, because I'm trying to push.

Philip Pape: 10:56

But what I wanted to talk about is what's causing this, what I'll call energy drain. It's weird I know it's a weird phrase, but kind of, the way I see it is, the opposite thing happens in fat loss, where your body's clamping down. It's getting super efficient, it's trying to conserve energy and you don't want it to do that. You want it to burn calories. But in the bulk it's almost like an energy drain, like a leak, like your body is just burning so many calories. It almost seems impossible. So I want to explain that. The first thing that comes to mind is your training expenditure, and what I mean by that is we don't often give enough credit to the fact that the way we train burns calories, because even I often talk about the fact that that is not why we exercise right, we don't exercise to burn calories, but it does burn calories.

Philip Pape: 11:43

Now I've been running. Shout out to Alex Bromley Okay, look him up on YouTube. Really smart guy, uh, and I think he was just on Dave Tate's um table talk as well. I'm running his bull mastiff program which, by the way, I think you could still get it for free in boost camp. If you download boost camp, it's a really good workout logger app. I use it. Use my link in the show notes. I get a little bit of a bonus for affiliate bonus. It's very small, but just if you're looking to support me. But you can get Bull Mastiff and run it yourself.

Philip Pape: 12:12

Now this is a I'll call it a high load, but also high volume strength building and then peaking program, meaning for about nine weeks you do three waves of ever-increasing volume, that reset for each wave and you're doing a lot of volume, more volume than I've ever done, maybe double. Then you switch to a peaking phase where you reduce the volume but you start increasing the load. You get up into fours and then triples and then doubles. Now I'm finally in singles phase, which is going to lead to testing my one rep max for my squat, deadlift and so on. And while you're doing this kind of training, especially the high volume training that I was doing even though each rep might be more efficient as you get stronger, your body's using less energy for the same movement, because my movement patterns are being executed so frequently. I feel like there is a sense of efficiency there and then I'm able to push even harder. And now the increased volume and intensity. You multiply those together, you get higher energy demand. So while the efficiency might save a little bit, the volume more than makes up for it, especially the program I've been running. Again, I've never run this high of a volume program before. I suspect that's part of it. Now it's been at least six weeks since I was at level of volume. It's been way less volume and it's still going up. So you know it could be a cascade effect or just like kind of a runaway effect going on. So as you get stronger, as you're handling heavier weights during a bulk, even if you're doing fewer reps, your total tonnage, your work capacity tends to increase. You're able to push harder, push to that more effect, your effective reps get to a higher load, et cetera. All of that burns a ton more calories and then it has that afterburner effect and so on. So I think that's part of it. I think that's part of it. Just keep that in mind.

Philip Pape: 13:53

The second factor is NEAT, right, non-exercise activity thermogenesis. You heard me talk about this. This is everything you do outside the gym. Primarily you're walking. This is everything you do outside the gym primarily you're walking, but also you're fidgeting, unconscious movement, and it increases even if your step count doesn't change. Your knee might increase, sometimes dramatically, when you're in a surplus because you've got all this extra energy now almost nervous energy, you might call it. Your body unconsciously moves more throughout the day. You fidget more, you tap your feet, maybe you shake around a little bit more. Um, I stand working up most of the time and I catch myself. You know, shifting around you might take more steps, you might pace more when you're pacing, you know, you just might pace more and all these small movements add up to hundreds of extra calories burned without you realizing it. So that's my second theory here of supported by the evidence, is that your neat is unconsciously going up, even if your step count doesn't necessarily go up because of all these other unconscious movements.

Philip Pape: 14:50

The third factor is broader metabolic adaptation concept We've talked about a lot, especially during fat loss. You know, just like your body fights to preserve energy during a cut, it can fight to prevent excessive weight gain during a bulk by ramping up various metabolic processes in your body, like increased body temperature. You get a lot hotter, trust me, during winter now it's like the gap is even wider between what my wife thinks is cold and what I think is cold. You get higher energy expenditure during digestion. You're just eating a heck of a lot more food and digesting it a lot more frequently. Subtle changes in your hormone levels right, your body's like, yeah, you've got, you're flooding me with energy, there's no need to conserve anything here, wrap it all up, which is a great place to be energy wise. But then you become just less and less efficient with calories. You're just wasting calories left and right and your body's just burning the heck out of them. So those are the three factors I believe are important behind why you might have this runaway effect with your expenditure.

Philip Pape: 15:52

So understanding these adaptations has led me to think about how are we strategic with this? If you're dealing with this, what do I do for this? And three specific things came to mind. Yeah, I'm just going to, I'm just going to jump into them and you're basically balancing the fact that you have this short-term goal of, like, eating a ton of food and keeping up and continuing to build. I will say the one caveat before I get into any of these is I noticed that even though I have quote unquote maintained the fact that I've been eating more and more food has, ironically, still given me the feeling and performance of being in a surplus energy state. So it's not like I've fallen behind, because that's another issue people face is they actually start losing weight in this situation? But I've at least kept up with it and it's been more than enough, with a little bit of extra fat I have as well, to not make me feel like it's a problem, which I guess is a cool thing, right?

Philip Pape: 16:48

So the first thing I like to do as a strategy is what I call caloric dominance. Like, you've got to dominate those calories, and that means not just eating more, right, that's the simple thing. Okay, I need more food, great. But eating smarter, like front loading your calories in the day and around your training sessions, like just you've got to get ahead of it and be smart and realize that if you don't, it's going to catch up to you by later in the day. It's a little bit of a job. It's a little bit of a job to do. You got to understand that there's a trade off, there's a sacrifice, and that you have to be paying attention. And on top of this stuff, you've got to be strategic and plan ahead. Plan ahead, just like in fat loss, you want to plan ahead Same thing here to get all the calories in and eat around your training. Eat a ton around your training when your body is primed to use them, not like right before you train, where it's going to give you digestive issues, but around the training, strategically.

Philip Pape: 17:45

Add liquid calories. Whole milk is awesome If you can tolerate dairy. Whole milk is awesome If you can tolerate dairy, excuse me. Whole milk is fantastic. It's for the price and the macros and the calories and everything. It's a wonderful food. Of course, you know protein shakes, adding higher calorie ingredients, processing things, nuking, not nuking things. What am I trying to say, blending things together into smoothies and stuff, can definitely help. That's more of just a general strategy to get it in.

Philip Pape: 18:09

But high meal frequency, calorie dominance, starting early, getting around your workouts, calorie-dense foods that don't kill your appetite but still maintain that base of nutrient-dense whole foods. So, adding in extra olive oil to your meals, choosing fattier cuts of meat oh, extra olive oil to your meals. Choosing fattier cuts of meat oh ribeye this is the time to go to town on ribeyes. Man, that marbled fat there is like nature's butter. Well, butter is from nature, but you know what I mean? It's like the steaks built in butter, having lots of nuts and nut butters as snacks. You know it's great and the key here is to to keep it consistent. Like having regular meal timing.

Philip Pape: 18:51

While you're scaling everything up because you don't want to make, you don't want to get in a situation when you're just trying to catch up and you're stuffing yourself. That is not fun. Or you're like I'm gonna go Like uh gorge on rice crispy streets and pop tarts because I just need the calories. That is not a sustainable situation you want to be in. So again, think of things like dried fruit, granola, like homemade or even packaged granola. They tend to be calorie dense as well, without giving you excessive fullness. So that's calorie dominance.

Philip Pape: 19:20

The second thing here second strategy, is about mindset. It's about maintaining perspective and resilience. So, instead of just getting frustrated by the plateau, which you know, after a week I'm like, okay, it's not moving, what do I do, right? I use this opportunity to learn about my body's response, and it might be different every time you do a bulk Like. For me, this is a unique situation for the first time because it's it's persistent, but it also maybe tells me some good things that my body is really growing and really taking advantage of this caloric environment.

Philip Pape: 19:53

So your data, whatever data you have, like the data for macro factor, for example it's not just numbers sitting there, it's the feedback you need to close the loop right. The control system. It helps me understand how my metabolism adapts to different situations. This is why I like people to keep tracking, even when they're sick or even when they have a surgery or whatever, assuming the tracking itself isn't stressful in those situations. It helps you understand how your body reacts to those, and then that knowledge is super invaluable for future gaining phases or whatever situation and, of course, for me, helping others through similar challenges. It's amazing.

Philip Pape: 20:29

So when you're facing a plateau, it's easy to get caught up in the numbers and just lose sight of the bigger picture. And remember that your scale weight, your trend weight, is just one metric. I mentioned this already. My performance is really strong. My energy is really high. The quality of my training not only hasn't it suffered, it's continuing to increase, and through this I've been dealing with some of my legacy shoulder issues, having nothing to do with my bulk or anything else, and those gave me little setbacks along the way. But the fact that I'm so well fed has actually been helpful. So sometimes the best response to a plateau any plateau is step back, appreciate the progress you've already made, appreciate all the wonderful victories you're getting right now despite the plateau, and, of course, stay patient with the process, because it's data telling you that something might have to change. You learn from it and you grow and you continue. That's what I have to say about that. All right.

Philip Pape: 21:27

The third strategy is I guess it's also mindset, but it's really being realistic about the timelines and the goals, because that can frustrate the heck out of you, like like it could have done to me when I said I needed to be, by one at one, 95 by this date, cause I'm going to be doing a cut like four weeks after that. No-transcript will end naturally at that point. And you know what? That's perfectly fine. Not only that, what are the advantages of that? All right, maybe one advantage is I won't be as heavy as expected, so the cut is gonna be easier to get to my target weight. Great, that's a great way to reframe it.

Philip Pape: 22:25

When I look at the bigger picture, I'm in a great place. I've gained quality mass, my performance is solid, I'm maintaining better nutritional habits than ever before, even in a gain, and the fact that my maintenance calories have increased so dramatically is actually a sign of improved metabolic capacity. Sometimes our bodies have different plans than what is up here in our brains, and learning to work with that because that's reality, that's reality rather than against it that is going to go a long way toward being a positive, optimistic person. That will make you successful over the long term. All right, so I hope you take away from all of this something super fascinating and also inspiring about building muscle, in that your body is very intelligent. Also inspiring about building muscle in that your body is very intelligent when you understand that these adaptations occur not as obstacles, but as signals that you are pushing the boundaries of growth.

Philip Pape: 23:19

That is where you can say all right now, what do I do to work with that? The fact that my maintenance calories have increased so dramatically is not a problem at all. It is a sign my body has built the machinery to handle more volume, more food and ultimately, yeah, more muscle. That's my takeaway. Maybe I'm rationalizing, lying to myself, but I don't think I am. This is like an increased metabolic capacity. It means I'm more resilient. It means I'm more capable of handling intense training. It means I'm better equipped for long-term growth. And guess what? I know I can now do this kind of program in the future and get some pretty good gains, which means look out numbers. Here we come, all right.

Philip Pape: 23:58

So we often hear about metabolic adaptation during fat loss, but the same mechanisms are working in reverse during a bulk, and that was what I wanted to talk about today. So if you can understand this, it's not just going to help you gain weight, that's fine. Eat more calories, that's fine. It really helps you build a more resilient, more capable physique All right, a physique that you didn't have before. That is a new person. You've become a more athletic, strong, capable person. Stop chasing skinny, start chasing strong.

Philip Pape: 24:27

What I've learned through this phase has changed how I approach muscle building now for the next time, as well as for myself and my clients. And sometimes the hardest gains. You know that these hard parts are the things that teach us the valuable lessons about how our bodies adapt and grow. All right, if you want to build muscle more effectively and understand the science behind successful bulking, grab your free copy of my Muscle Building Nutrition Blueprint. This guide gives you the exact steps and framework to optimize your nutrition to maximize muscle growth and minimize fat gain. Head to witsandweightscom slash muscle or click the link in the show notes to download your copy 100% free. Until next time, keep using your wits lifting those weights and remember when your metabolism fights back, it is not trying to stop you. It is challenging you to get stronger. I'll talk to you next time here on the Wits and Weights Podcast.