The 12-Month Fat Loss and Muscle Gain Blueprint for Your Best Physique in 2025 | Ep 260

Download my free Precision Fat Loss Guide with the 6 core fat loss strategies customized for your experience, goals, and lifestyle (or go to witsandweights.com/free)

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Stuck in a bulking and cutting loop without lasting results? Ready to map out 2025 for sustainable gains and fat loss? Want a proven plan to build your dream physique?

Philip (@witsandweights) delivers a powerful end-of-year gift: a complete periodization blueprint designed to help you build muscle, lose fat, and achieve sustainable fitness success. He shares the five transformative phases of the yearlong plan, from building foundational habits in body recomp to strategically timed fat loss, anabolic muscle building, and more.

Learn how to align your nutrition, training, and lifestyle with each phase to create a roadmap for lifelong progress. Whether your goal is to get lean, pack on serious muscle, or overhaul your physique, this provides the step-by-step plan to crush your goals in 2025.

Today, you’ll learn all about:

03:31 Phase 1: Body recomp and the power of building systems
06:11 The role of tracking
09:28 Phase 2: Precision fat loss strategies for sustainable progress
16:58 Phase 3: Beach-ready maintenance for recovery and celebration
20:58 Phase 4: Six months of anabolic muscle building for transformative gains
28:32 Phase 5: Mini cut for the finishing touch on your dream physique
35:49 The principles for success
40:15 Outro

Episode resources:

• Try MacroFactor for free with code WITSANDWEIGHTS. The only food logging app that adjusts to your metabolism!

• Watch this video on setting up MacroFactor for your initial recomp (maintenance) phase

• Download Boostcamp to access 70+ evidence-based workouts
  

Your Year-Long Plan for Fat Loss and Muscle Gain in 2025

What if you could map out your entire year to strategically transform your physique? Instead of randomly bouncing between bulking and cutting, this 12-month blueprint takes the guesswork out of building muscle and losing fat. In this article, I’ll break down the exact phases from my latest podcast episode to help you make 2025 your best year yet.

This isn’t about quick fixes or trendy diets. It’s about sustainability, precision, and long-term results. Whether you’re looking to get leaner, stronger, or completely overhaul your body composition, this plan is your guide to success.

Why a Year-Long Plan Beats Short-Term Fitness Goals

Most people start the year with vague resolutions, like "lose weight" or "gain muscle," but they lack the structure to make those goals a reality. A year-long periodized approach:

• Builds habits and systems for long-term sustainability.

• Aligns with your body’s natural rhythms and energy needs throughout the year.

• Prevents burnout by alternating between focused phases of fat loss, maintenance, and muscle building.

With this plan, you’ll not only see physical results but also develop the skills and confidence to continue improving year after year.

Phase 1: Body Recomp (January–February)

This initial 8-week phase sets the foundation for success by focusing on body recomposition and habit-building.

Goals:

• Establish consistent habits: strength training, protein intake, fiber, and hydration.

• Maintain calories to prime your body for fat loss or muscle building.

• Track progress to build awareness without stress.

Why not start with fat loss? Without these systems in place, any progress you make will likely be temporary. Use this time to align your habits and learn how your body responds to maintenance.

Phase 2: Precision Fat Loss (March–May)

After building a solid foundation, it’s time for a targeted fat loss phase. Over these 12 weeks, aim for a weight loss rate of 0.5–0.75% of your body weight per week to maximize fat loss while retaining muscle.

Key Strategies:

1. Personalized Targets: Use tools like MacroFactor to determine your calorie deficit and macros.

2. Flexible Dieting: Build a plan that fits your lifestyle, including planned breaks or refeeds to stay consistent.

3. Strength Training: Maintain high-intensity training to preserve muscle mass.

Fat loss doesn’t have to feel miserable. The goal is to align your plan with your preferences and keep hunger manageable for sustainable progress.

Phase 3: Beach-Ready Maintenance (June)

This short 2-week phase acts as a transition between fat loss and muscle building.

Objectives:

• Replenish glycogen stores and restore energy.

• Stabilize your metabolism at maintenance calories.

• Celebrate your progress and showcase the results of your hard work.

This phase also gives you a mental reset before diving into a longer muscle-building phase.

Phase 4: Anabolic Muscle Building (July–December)

The magic happens here. Spend at least six months focused on building muscle to increase your metabolic rate, improve body composition, and create a physique you can maintain for life.

Principles:

1. Slow and Steady Gains: Aim for a weight gain rate of 0.3–0.5% of your body weight per week to maximize muscle while minimizing fat.

2. Target Weak Points: Use progressive overload and prioritize muscle groups that need extra attention.

3. Prioritize Recovery: Optimize sleep, manage stress, and adjust training intensity to avoid burnout.

This phase is where your physique transforms. Trust the process and commit to the long-term rewards.

Phase 5: Mini-Cut Shred (January–February 2026)

Wrap up the year with a short, 6-week mini cut to shed any extra fat gained during muscle building and reveal your leaner, more muscular physique.

Approach:

• Aggressive but Controlled: Target a fat loss rate of ~1% of your body weight per week.

• Strategic Cardio: Add light cardio sessions to support your calorie deficit without compromising recovery.

• Sustainability: Keep protein intake high and focus on retaining muscle while dropping fat.

This final phase sharpens your results and sets you up for another year of success.

Why This Blueprint Works

This 12-month plan combines evidence-based principles with real-world flexibility. It’s not just about achieving a better physique—it’s about learning how your body responds to different phases of training and nutrition. With this knowledge, you’ll be empowered to make adjustments and sustain your results for years to come.

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Transcript

Philip Pape: 0:01

If you're tired of jumping from one fitness phase to another without a real plan, bulking for a few months, cutting for a few weeks, never quite getting the results you want, this episode is for you. What if I told you there's a strategic way to plan your entire year to finally achieve that physique you've been chasing? Today, I'm sharing my complete periodization blueprint for 2025 or any 12-month period that will help you build muscle and lose fat more effectively than random approaches. Whether you're looking to get leaner or add serious muscle, or completely transform your physique, this episode will give you the exact roadmap to make 2025 your best year yet. Welcome to Wits and Weights, the podcast that blends evidence and engineering to help you build smart, efficient systems to achieve your dream physique. I'm your host, philip Pape, and today is my end of year gift to you as we head into a new year, 2025, a strategic periodized plan for building your best physique over a 12-month period. Now, how about, instead of jumping straight into a diet or even an intentionally designed but aggressive fat loss phase in January, like everyone else, what if you took a more calculated approach, one that will make future fat loss even easier, that works with your body's natural rhythms and the seasons, builds lasting habits and systems and creates sustainable results. That's exactly what you're getting today, and if that's not what you're looking for, this is not the episode for you. And to get a head start on the fat loss phase which, if you follow my plan, will start in about eight weeks from the start of this plan, I've created something pretty unique. It is my new Precision Fat Loss Guide that acts as a decoder ring where you pick and choose your goals, lifestyle and personal tendencies to pick the best of among six core fat loss strategies. To get your free copy of the Precision Fat Loss Guide and get a head start on that, click the link in my show notes or go to winstonweightscom and click free stuff. All right, let's start building the mental muscles so we can have better physical muscle and, overall, better lean physique over the next 12 months.

Philip Pape: 2:18

What we're going to cover today is five phases to map out for the next 12 months. The first phase is going to be body recomp, and this is January to February. Now again, if you're starting this in the middle of the year or some other time, it's fine. This is just hypothetical. January through February body recomp. Phase two is going to be precision fat loss. So that'll be March through May. And then phase three is your beach ready maintenance and that is in June, followed by an anabolic muscle building phase from July all the way to December. And then and I know I'm cheating a little bit we're going to do a mini cut shred January to February, the following year. Now it's a little bit more than 12 months, but the reason I'm doing that is most of you are going to want to build muscle all the way through the holidays. You can obviously cut that phase a little bit shorter if you need to or want to to fit in the shred earlier, but most people aren't going to care. You want to go all the way through, say, christmas, the New Year's, and that's what it's going to look like. A lot of this is flexible. We're going to dive into each phase and understand how they work together to create a solid physique and really give you a strategy that you can then rinse and repeat for the rest of your life.

Philip Pape: 3:29

If you want Phase one body recomp this is an eight-week phase Now. It can be six, it can be 12. With my clients it ranges from six to 10 usually. So an eight-week phase to create the foundation of your habits, while also improving your body composition. Now I know what you're thinking. Why aren't we just starting with fat loss right away? I got to lose the weight. I got to lose the fat A super common request.

Philip Pape: 3:56

Here's the thing Without the system, without the habits in place, any progress you make later will be temporary. It's going to go back to the way it was before. You're going to repeat the cycle that you've repeated in the past over and over again. We don't want to do that. So the philosophy here is simple Start where you are, not where you think you should be, and then focus on fundamentals. Focus on those habits, not little hacks and extreme approaches, just the fundamentals. For some of you, that's going to be quite a bit of behavior change over that eight weeks, and for others it's going to be much smaller. Regardless, we're going to take a tiny habits approach to get there and you're going to start where you're at. Consistency is going to carry you through forever. It's going to beat perfection all or nothing any day of the week, and it'll give you the power that you need to do this yourself. So we're talking about nailing the basics protein at every meal, hitting your fiber intake, staying hydrated, things that sound boring and not exciting at all. Training, training consistently, three, four days a week, whatever makes sense. These, however, are the bedrock of body recomposition and then, ultimately, body composition in general.

Philip Pape: 5:07

Second, we are going to take advantage of your potential for recomp while setting these things up. So, unless you're going to jump right into a muscle building phase which is your right and an option you can just skip this and the fat loss phase and go right into muscle building. I know a lot of you are looking to shed some excess fat first, get a little bit leaner and then build muscle. So that's what we're talking about. So we want to take advantage of your potential to build muscle and lose fat at the same time, initially without trying to diet, without trying to build muscle, but while setting up these systems, because at maintenance calories, eating the same amount of calories that you burn, so the scale weight doesn't change beginners and intermediates can actually burn fat and build muscle at the same time. Now, if you're super advanced, it's going to take a lot longer to do that, but in this case you are primed for it, even advanced lifters. They can tighten up and improve some definition through very meticulous consistency, but we're going for body recomp and we're going for building systems.

Philip Pape: 6:06

The third benefit, I guess, of this phase is we are going to track. We're going to track all the things we want to track, but we're going to make it as low stress as possible. And you might say, well, that's kind of contraindicated, because tracking itself is stressful. Well, no, it doesn't have to be. And if anything, the way I like to track allows you to free up decision-making and free up emotional responses the rest of your week and the rest of the month and give you the confidence to know what to do when you go into fat loss. And all of that actually reduces your chronic stress. It gives you confidence, which is going to reduce your stress and that's going to increase your metabolism. So we love that, and I personally love Macrofactor as an app to track food and weight, because it also then gives you your metabolic rate, your expenditure, your metabolism. It's the only app that does that in real time, dynamically, based on your real data, and all you've got to do is put in your weight and food daily. Yes, daily, because daily is shown to have the best results for people and gives you the most confidence and precision. And we're not going to obsess over what happens every day in terms of our scale weight, but we're going to track it. Think of this as a calibration phase, where you're just aligning everything so that the next few phases there's almost no way you can go off track because you've got everything set up really well for success. So that's phase one.

Philip Pape: 7:29

So phase one you're going to spend eight weeks at maintenance, going for body recomp, without trying to diet, without trying to gain, and what you're going to do during that time is going to highly vary based on your context, but I'll give you my big low-hanging fruit list. Number one you're going to highly vary based on your context, but I'll give you my big low-hanging fruit list. Number one you're going to be strength training using an effective program of progressive overload. Now, that's outside the scope of this podcast to get into all the details on that. I have other episodes that talk about that but you've definitely got to be training so that we can build muscle and then hold on to that muscle during fat loss.

Philip Pape: 8:02

Number two we already talked about tracking your food. Along with that tracking, you're then going to understand your macros. We need sufficient protein, we need sufficient carbs, we need sufficient calories and you're going to eat to that level of maintenance and if it seems like a lot of food, that's okay. We want to slowly get there so that we're fully energized and well-fed and recovered before we go into fat loss. Number three is going to be being active and moving right, getting your steps in. For you, that might be going from 4,000 a day to 6,000. Another person might be six to eight or eight to 10. I would try to add 2,000 steps a day at first, make it sustainable and then get even more than that to aim between eight and 10,000. And then, finally, we have things like sleep and stress. Now, this is a huge topic. We thousand. And then finally, we have things like sleep and stress.

Philip Pape: 8:47

Now, this is a huge topic. We're not going to cover it all today, but the idea is, if this is a red flag for you, whether it's because of unavoidable stress in your life or because of things that are fully within your control, we need to do little things like taking a break between our meetings and taking a breath and calming down and finding time to ourselves, finding time for play, those sorts of things that will help manage our stress. So all of that is getting normalized and calibrated during this first phase and that is why we don't want to be doing fat loss initially. So if you want to know more about that, send me a message. I'll send you one of the previous episodes where we've talked about setting up for maintenance. I have a few of them and it depends on what exactly you're looking for and I'll give that to you.

Philip Pape: 9:28

All right, so phase two after that, first eight weeks. Now we're into March. This is the fat loss phase. This is the moment you've been waiting for and I'm gonna default this to a 12-week phase. But, as I mentioned earlier, if you download my guide, you'll see that there are six different approaches. You could take different durations, different rates, different philosophies based on your situation, but we're going to just talk in generalities here. Okay, so let's assume 12 weeks. I find that 12 weeks is enough to get a decent amount of fat loss, but not so long that it becomes a little bit of a grind and you get tired of it mentally and physically. So we're going to drop fat strategically and the only way to do that is to drop scale weight while holding onto that valuable muscle mass.

Philip Pape: 10:12

And here's the key philosophy most people miss. Fat loss doesn't need to feel like punishment. It doesn't need to feel miserable. I won't say that it is a walk in the park and that it's like going to Disney World other than Disney World in the summer or in the holidays, but it doesn't feel, it's not going to feel like that, but it also shouldn't be miserable. So we want to build a plan that aligns with your lifestyle. That just says okay, let me acknowledge what's happening. Do I love to go out to eat? Do I have travel coming up? Do I like to eat these specific foods? Do I love carbs? Do I like to shift my calories around, based on the day, whatever it is, and build a plan that goes with it. And we're going to focus on three core areas.

Philip Pape: 10:56

So I'm going to touch in more detail here on things that I just alluded to in the first phase so that you have those details. So first is the rate of loss. Using macro factor, for example, you could just plug in the rate of loss you want per week and it'll give you the targets. If you're doing it by hand, you're going to just have to do some math, and what we're targeting here for most people is around 0.5 to 0.75% of your body weight per week over 12 weeks. So you can do the math for yourself and you can realize, okay, that might be 10, 15, 20 pounds, depending on your body weight.

Philip Pape: 11:34

Some people can go a little more aggressive, some people less. And again, if you download my precision fat loss guide, it has all of these prescribed out and written out and all of that. And I see people trying to rush it. So if I say a half to 1%, they're like I'm going to go 1%. So I usually say a half to 0.75% to kind of constrain that and really leaning more toward the half percent. And when you take half percent of your body weight times 12 weeks, it gives you a certain fat loss. I would just say, whatever that number is, be happy with it. Don't try to target a specific number, because after you build muscle later on we're going to do another small fat loss phase anyway and the building of muscle is going to help you be leaner, regardless of the scale weight anyway. So we want to get like some fat loss here, some decent fat loss, but it's not all of it. So quote, unquote, right, and in fact, the slower you go, the more easy it's going to be to preserve that muscle and to keep your hunger totally manageable, making it seem like, oh, it's not so bad, I'm getting through this very consistently, no big deal, as opposed to oh my God, I have to binge those donuts right now. So that's one core area of fat loss.

Philip Pape: 12:42

The second core area is implementing any sort of breaks or refeeds or permission to yourself to go ahead and eat more calories and eat up to maintenance when you need to. Now it's better that those are planned in than just happen randomly, because when they happen randomly, that is the opposite of consistency. But when you plan them in, when you say, look, every day, every week, I have two days of the week where I know I'm just going to want to eat more, you might not even know what those days are. So you're going to plan your calories to suggest five kind of normal or low-ish days and two higher days, and that's what your plan is going to be predicated on, whether that's like one maintenance calorie day every week, one a month, a whole week every month, whatever. Those are all in my Precision Fat Loss Guide.

Philip Pape: 13:28

Again, if you go into there, we're not talking about cheat days, we're talking about psychological resets. Some people call them hedonic deviations, where you give yourself a planned day of deviating up to so you can eat more food. You might call it a strategic metabolic boost. Whatever you want to call it, you're not going to increase your metabolism artificially higher doing this, but you are going to slow down and stop any metabolic adaptation for a moment before it continues back. But it's more for the mental break and sustainability.

Philip Pape: 14:02

And then the third core tenet here of the fat loss phase and this is probably the most crucial, to be honest is we are training to retain muscle. Your resistance training intensity stays high and intensity means a combination of things, but it primarily means you are training hard, close to failure, using progressive overload, still using your compound lifts and your accessories and all the same stuff. You don't completely change your training program. Most people can actually continue with exactly what they were doing in the fat loss and what they'll find is the first few weeks, maybe even the first few months, they can still make progress, especially if this is the first time you're doing it. You might actually build muscle and strength even while in fat loss, because remember, you've only spent a couple months in the recomp phase. You're still in that newbie gains phase. If you're an intermediate lifter, however, you may not gain strength or muscle, but you should easily be able to hold on to the muscle, and so your lifts will either slightly go up or maybe they'll pause. But remember that you're also losing weight. So your relative strength is holding or potentially going up, if that makes sense, and then you're holding on to the muscle. You're eating plenty of protein, all that good stuff, all right. So your progress in the gym become your indicators for muscle retention, as well as your body measurements to an extent. But remember, you're losing fat at the same time, so take that with a grain of salt, all right.

Philip Pape: 15:25

So we had phase one eight weeks of body recomp, building your habits. Phase two 12 weeks. You got two months, then three months, 12 weeks of fat loss, with a lot of flexibility on how to do that. And again, the actual calories and macros are going to depend on your metabolism and your rate of loss. So go, download Macrofactor. I'll include the link in the show notes. I'll include a video showing you how to set it up for maintenance initially, and then you'll be golden on that. You'll get the right targets for your metabolism. If you use MyFitnessPower chronometer, you're not going to get those targets, you are going to have to guess at them and you're going to be off. You're going to be off and you're going to get frustrated. Okay, so that's phase two. Phase three is beach ready maintenance.

Philip Pape: 16:09

Now, this is just a very short blip. This is a couple weeks. You know, maybe I would say two weeks, but it could be one to three, but let's say two weeks. This is like a little victory lap. Okay, you've achieved your fat loss. You're celebrating. Now You're bringing the calories back up. We're going to replenish that glycogen. We're going to replenish your energy stores. We're going to showcase what you've accomplished so far. And by showcase I don't necessarily mean you have to go on the beach and show off your abs. I mean you're just expressing physically with your physique, even if it's to yourself in the mirror, it doesn't matter that you've worked hard to this point to lose some fat and reveal some of that muscle. And the philosophy is to enjoy the benefits of your hard work and celebrate that win, while priming your body for the most magical phase of your entire life coming up, which is going to be muscle building. But before we get there, let's talk about this short beach ready maintenance phase.

Philip Pape: 17:03

The idea is, I don't like going from fat loss straight to a gain, because that transition is so drastic that both psychologically and physiologically it can cause a lot of second guessing and like misinterpretation of the data. I'd rather you kind of bottom out, then go to maintenance and then go to muscle building and in that couple of week period what you're ending and then go to muscle building and in that couple week period, what you're ending up doing is refilling the glycogen in your muscles and it's going to make your physique look pop a little bit because you're kind of dehydrated and, I'll say, gaunt, almost from having dieted. Now we're going to refill that and you might find, hey, I'm actually pretty darn happy where I'm at and you could stay there for a while. You could stay there for weeks, months, years if you wanted to. I don't recommend it. I recommend going to the next phase and building a ton of muscle, which we're going to talk about, but you could so during this two week maintenance phase. It's a very important phase even though it's short. First, what we're going to do is we're effectively refilling everything without spilling over.

Philip Pape: 18:03

The biggest fear people have is oh, I'm going to gain all this weight back and I'm going to binge on all the foods I've been avoiding. Well, first of all, you haven't been avoiding foods, right, you've simply been scaling things down and being strategic about eating your protein and high satiety foods, like fiber containing foods, like fruits and vegetables. Right, you've been doing that while still having some carbs in your diet. Well, what happens now is the carbs are going to get ramped way up, the protein is going to stay roughly the same, the fats are going to scale up a little bit and the carbs are going to scale up a lot. Okay, and again, we're not getting into the actual numbers of all the macros. I've got guides for that and you can reach out for that. We could talk about your specific plan or just download Macrofactor and it'll give it to you, but the carbs are going to ramp way up and I do not like reverse dieting.

Philip Pape: 18:50

So if you hear people talk about reverse dieting reverse dieting is a way to guess your way up to your maintenance I don't want to guess and I don't have to guess because we've been tracking your metabolism Again. If you're using Macrofactor or if you're doing it by hand on a spreadsheet, you know how many calories you're burning over the last week. So if you're in a 500 calorie deficit, you just have to increase. Add 500 calories back in and now you're at your true dynamic maintenance right now. Now those maintenance calories are going to be lower than they were when you started the fat loss phase.

Philip Pape: 19:24

But why wait to get there? Let's just recover. You're not going to gain weight because it's your maintenance right. And so we're going to increase our targets right to our maintenance, knowing that it's going to climb back to a more recovered, stable level and then probably continue climbing when we go into muscle building. So why wait? Let's recover. And so your protein's still going to be around your normal target of 0.7 to one gram per pound. You're going to see improved muscle definition as your glycogen stores fill, as your cortisol levels drop, your hormones get back to normal.

Philip Pape: 19:53

Right and again, if, depending on your experience in the past and how many times you've cut in bulk in the past, this is like your photo shoot phase, even if you're not taking pictures, right. So, but if you haven't ever built muscle, you're probably not there yet, and I get it. You're like well, I'm not quite happy with my physique, it's okay, we're just getting started. And then the third thing during this phase is learning that there is a sustainable level where you can fine tune your social eating skills, your mindfulness, your level of indulgence, because you have more calories to work with. You're no longer dieting, and so now you understand what it's like to diet. Now you're going to get back to something that feels really solid in terms of energy and food, and you'll want to come to grips with that and see what it feels like, because that's where you would live for the rest of your life if you didn't go out, gone to the next phase and build muscle. Right, and for many people that'll be amazing. Right, you've gotten leaner, you've learned how to eat for fullness, for protein, fiber, and now you can kind of sustain that and it feels great.

Philip Pape: 20:57

But now let's go to phase four, and this is my favorite phase of all, and for some of you, I'm going to skip you right to this. First, instead of fat loss because you only have five or 10 pounds to lose, I don't care about that, and by I I mean you shouldn't care about it either, because gaining five, 10, 15 pounds of muscle is going to serve you much more than just losing five or 10 pounds of fat. If you have to lose 20, 30 or more, that's a different story, okay, and I have an episode I did a long time ago called what should you do first? Uh, but anyway, you could follow this plan, whoever you are listening, and it's going to work for you. So phase four is the anabolic muscle building phase. Now we are into July, because we had two months for recomp, we had three months for fat loss and then we had a couple of weeks for maintenance, and so now we're pushing at just about the middle of the year. So now I usually recommend building muscle for six months minimum. So that's why this is going to take a full six months. Now you can cut back on that a little bit to squeeze in a fat loss phase to like fit the exact 12 months, okay, but it doesn't really matter, because a few weeks here or there is not gonna make a difference. I would just get as much as you can out of the muscle building phase, and so think 24, 26 weeks, right around there. Six months, and this is where the magic happens.

Philip Pape: 22:16

The philosophy is simple but profound, and I talked about this in detail on my last Monday episode, so if you didn't catch that. Go check that out. I talk all about gaining to build muscle and how that makes you leaner and how that prevents you from getting fatter. It's so profound. Building muscle takes time, it takes patience, it takes trading the instant gratification you might've gotten in a fat loss phase for the long-term reward of having that extra lean tissue on your body at a higher scale weight, at a leaner, lower body fat percentage. I mean it's so incredible. Having gone through it myself and gone through several muscle building phases and not having done that till I was in my late 30s and early 40s I'm 44 now. It has only taken me three years or so to build a decent amount of muscle to the point where I'm just walking around quite a bit heavier than I used to and way leaner than I was, and I still have a long way to go, which is very empowering and exciting for me because it gives me a drive to want to keep doing this and chances are you're in that boat as well, if not even in a better position, where it's early on right.

Philip Pape: 23:24

So this is profound and it's amazing and we're going to focus on three elements here during this muscle building phase. The first is slow and steady gains, going at the right rate so that we build a ton of muscle and just a little bit of fat. And I say it that way because you're not going to avoid fat gain altogether, but you can definitely avoid gaining too much fat. How much do I mean? I mean, if you're a beginner, you could probably gain, say, two-thirds to three-quarters of the weight as muscle. How does it sound to gain 10 pounds? And the response is kind of a little bit of freaking out. I get it. I get it, cause that's, as a percentage of your body weight, seems like a lot. But what have I said? Eight of those pounds is muscle. Kind of changes the equation, doesn't it? Because now, yeah, you gain 10 pounds, but seven or eight pounds is muscle, so very little of that is fat. Your body fat percentage just went down, even potentially, before you even cut some of that fat back off. I mean, it's amazing.

Philip Pape: 24:26

So slow and stay is what we want and again, we are going to aim for a rate around for most of you 0.3 to almost 0.5% of your body weight a week Men, women, any age, okay, Because we all have the same propensity to gain muscle. Even if you're 70, you can gain muscle at a decent clip if you've never done this before, believe it or not. So, 0.3 to 0.5% of your body weight a week. Again, if you use macro factor, you just plug in the number and it gives you the targets. Now is faster, better, yes, up to a point Beyond that 0.4 or 0.5%. Now you're flirting with. All you're adding is fat territory, but don't let that scare you from pushing it a little bit, especially if it's your first time, because the fat comes off easy. The muscle is the one that's harder to put on, so why not give yourself the best shot? So that's the first thing. Is that slow and steady rate.

Philip Pape: 25:20

Secondly, we are going to prioritize the weak points during muscle building. What I mean by that is you really want a solid, effective program of progression, so you're taking the most advantage of that anabolic environment. Anabolic meaning growth. You've got lots of calories coming in, protein, carbs, hopefully. You're sleeping well and you're keeping stress manageable, and now you're training hard, three, four or five days a week.

Philip Pape: 25:47

What are you training for? How are you training? How are you progressing? Are you building strength? Are you building muscle? Are you peaking?

Philip Pape: 25:53

There's lots of ways to slice this, and so I like an app called boost camp. It's a workout app. It's a free app if you use it. Use my code wits and weights all one word, please, just to support me. But if you go in that app, you can get free programs that are evidence-based by expert trainers and, honestly, any one of those. If you pick, like you know, four days a week I'm focused on strength and muscle building it's going to spit out a bunch of great programs. So you've got to have the tracking of progression of your strength and muscle. So strength is shown through the numbers going up and muscles shown through your physique being developed. Now you're going to be getting some fat too, so your waist might go up, but we also want to see our biceps going up and our thighs going up right and our chest going up and any other body part that you really care about that you're training. So it's prioritizing and I said prioritize weak points, and what I mean by that is the points that have the most opportunity for growth. You really want to go all in for that and the things that you really want to grow. All right.

Philip Pape: 26:56

The third thing here is recovery becomes paramount, even though this is the irony even though you have a ton of calories coming in and that helps with recovery. You're also training hard. You are training hard. So getting that sleep, managing the stress, getting deloads if that's part of your plan or at least doing resets and such in your training program, keeping yourself fresh, watching for injury, like really making the most of it, so you can continue it and get the six months of pure straight training for muscle. Now things will come up in your life. We're not talking about that. If that happens, there's ways to deal with it. You could take little breaks here and there, not a big deal, but really you want to just keep growing, growing, growing and have a blocked approach to get there. Okay.

Philip Pape: 27:40

And then, once you've done that so now you've gone from like January to December you know you've gained 10, 15, 20 pounds on the scale, a significant portion of which is muscle. You're bigger. You probably have a little bit of extra fat, maybe too much fat, maybe you're like ah, you know I'm getting a little uncomfortable here, that's cool Now. And you've gone through the holidays. You've gone through Thanksgiving, christmas, all that. You've had fun, you've had plenty of calories. Your metabolism has probably ramped way up over that time. Now it's time to do a little mini cut to just shred some of that fat off, okay, and just kind of gently come in at a sustainable spot that is heavier, where you were before. We did the muscle, but you've got more muscle and less fat. So you are leaner, your metabolism is higher, you're able to eat more food and now that's your new set point. It's a beautiful place to be in.

Philip Pape: 28:30

What does this look like? I'm going to suggest a six-week mini cut. It's a really nice, super sustainable in and out. Get it over with finishing touch on a year of hard work. So six weeks isn't that long, it really isn't. And if you went through a 12-week fat loss phase, this is going to be comparable, but it's going to be a little different. It's going to be a little more aggressive, and the reason it's more aggressive is that it's short and we're going to reveal your physique. We're going to get out. You have the metabolic capacity and the muscle mass now to do kind of a quick fat loss phase and just get out, and that's what we're going to do.

Philip Pape: 29:05

So first we're going to talk about the rate of loss. We want something more aggressive here, so I'm going to actually push for that 1% of body weight a week and I would use that as an anchor point. If that's still too aggressive for you, because the calories that it brings you to go lower, and if you're like a bigger dude who you know has tons of muscle and a super high metabolism, you might be able to go 1.2, 1.3%, at least for three or four of the six weeks and have no ill precautions no, no ill repercussions and not lose any muscle mass. Okay, so it's really variable. Going to depend, um, and I do mention that in the fat loss guide as well and we're gonna keep protein high. We're gonna do all the same things. Okay, protein in this case might be even higher. So, like, if you've been at a decent amount of protein, maybe this is the one point in your whole plan for the 12 months where you just jack it up just a little bit. All right, depends on the amount of calories you have to play with, the amount of calories you have to play with, all right. So that's the rate of loss up to that 1% of weight a week.

Philip Pape: 30:08

Second is this is where I the only time I actually suggest you might want to add some cardio in, deliberately right, other than other reasons for health, heart health and whatnot, because you enjoy it actually just to ramp up that metabolism a tiny bit, knowing you're doing it in a short duration so you're not going to adapt to it too much. And so I would add like one or two at least zone two sessions. It doesn't have to be hit, it could just be, you know, kind of a get your heart rate going too fast to have a conversation. Level of exertion on a bike or pushing a prowler around or walking really fast or going on an up incline or wearing a rucksack, any, any of those things apply Other than running, I mean, unless you love to run different situation and that's going to support your deficit. You're not going to overload your recovery in that short period.

Philip Pape: 30:54

Doing it like that, I would mix up the forms of cardio that will make you even less efficient, which means burning more calories, and just give that a shot. Just add that in as a little extra jolt for your calorie burn. And then the final thing is you know we're not chasing perfection, we're not chasing an end point. We're not chasing this is going to be the be all end all physique. All we're doing is taking some of the fat gain that you added in the building phase and reduce it, without going to an extreme but still flirting with what it's like to push and to go a bit aggressively. If this is not for you, what you can do instead during this phase is just do another normal fat loss phase at a slower rate and then make the duration be as long as you need it to be. What's going to happen here is you're going to have gone through every aspect of periodization for nutrition, for gaining, for losing and you'll know what your body feels like and what it takes to do each of those, and from that you can assess hey, this was harder here, but this was easier here.

Philip Pape: 31:58

I really like this. I don't like this. Use those subjective feelings, to be honest, to tell yourself is this the right way to do it for me? Next time I do a fat loss phase, I'm going to go slower, or I'm going to put more breaks in, or I'm going to go more aggressively. Some people love to go super aggressive for like four weeks and they're done right. Or muscle building Heck, I really love that. All the food I get to train hard, I'm going to muscle gain for the next two years. It gives you all this flexibility and awareness and knowledge. It's so amazing and that's why I love having a plan right, because the physical transformation is just a side bonus of all of this. Believe it or not, it is a side bonus.

Jenny: 32:39

Hi, my name is Jenny and I just wanted to say a big thank you to Philip Pape of Wits and Weights for offering his free 50-minute nutritional assessment. During that time he gave me really good tools on how I can further my health and fitness goals. He asked really great questions and stayed true to his offer of no sales pitch. I have since applied these things and gotten really close to my health goals and my weight goals, and now I'm able to flip over and work on my strength and my muscle conditioning using a lot of the things he offers in his podcasts, and I just am very grateful for his positive inspiration and encouragement for all of our health. Thank you, philip.

Philip Pape: 33:25

The first time it happened for me, where I could see some muscle definition, feel a bit lean, feel a little bit more confident in a t-shirt, it was fantastic. But the short-term feeling of that sort of normalizes right, it wears off, then you get used to it. Then you're like okay, that is me now, that's my new identity, now what's next? I think the long lasting benefit here is how each of these phases teaches you something. Each of them builds upon each other. They're interconnected in a way that teaches you how your body ebbs and flows, how you can adjust the way you live to what you want with the year and the season and not ever make it feel like too much of a slog or a sacrifice, even though there are trade-offs. And if you kind of think about each phase right, the initial body comp phase, it's not just about hitting protein or setting up this habit, it's really skills. It's an overall system. If you can do that, you can then make a little change to then go into fat loss. If you can't do that, in other words, if the body recomp phase that we started with where you're at maintenance, is not sustainable, that's a great feedback to tell you that fat loss wouldn't be sustainable. So you're not going to go to fat loss until you've got that figured out. So if it takes you 10, 12, or more weeks to do it, so be it. If you need help, if you need help, if you need a coach, that's the kind of thing that I provide is support and accelerating that process to get you to that, you know. So you don't have to be frustrated. So that's the first phase. And then you think of after the fat loss phase, when you go into maintenance I think we talked about it again it's not just like, okay, I'm going to hold steady. It's now preparing for that mental shift, preparing your body, preparing your mind for the next phase, for the productive muscle building phase, the most productive of your life. To be honest, if you've never done it before, it will change your life. It will change your life.

Philip Pape: 35:16

So every one of these phases has a purpose beyond the obvious. I want you to lean into that and really get deep with it, right, really sit with it and think about it and plan it out, write it down on paper and ask yourself what you're trying to gain here, what you're trying to accomplish, because it's not about the result. The process itself is everything. The result will come easily when the process is nailed down right. And it's this compound effect and it makes the whole journey just so more powerful, so much more than some of the parts, and that's why I wanted to share this with you today.

Philip Pape: 35:48

So, as we wrap up, let's just focus on the overarching principles that make this kind of blueprint work for you. First, sustainability is a non-negotiable. Each phase is designed to be challenging because it has to change you physically and mentally, push you, but never overwhelming. The phrase I've used before is expanding your comfort zone, but never far exceeding it. The second principle is to celebrate that process. Again, do celebrate the results as they come as well, but those are going to be fleeting and few and far in between the process, whether it's, you know, you've nailed a habit that before was a struggle. You know, I go to sleep every night by 9.30, every night. Now I am so proud of that, right, oh, I get 8,000 steps every day. Sometimes it's 10 or 12, but every day I get my 8,000. And maybe it's not every day, maybe it's, you know, three days out of the week. I get my 10,000, whatever that goal is for you. And, yes, even physical changes, seeing the definition slowly morph over time, correlated with objective measures like your body circumference measurements.

Philip Pape: 36:56

Hitting PRs is always fun because you're going to be training and growing a lot, especially during your muscle building phase. Every single session is a win. Even if you don't PR every lift, you know you might have some setbacks. You're going to have a lot of them in every single session because you were constantly growing and getting stronger and building muscle, and so all of the success is cumulative and the wins come fast and furious if you look for them, if you accept them in.

Philip Pape: 37:20

And then the last principle here is I want you to balance the science. You know the here's what you need to do, here's what works according to the evidence which I say all the time and anything you hear on this podcast or any other podcast. I want you to balance that with your intuition and your biofeedback, so important. With your intuition even if that's your feelings, I don't care. Like you know, know yourself with your intuition and with your biofeedback. So biofeedback is a little more objective tracked measures of your stress, your hunger, your digestion, your sleep, your libido and a few others that you might want to track. I want you to balance the two and then let that data because that is your whole data set, that is your evidence Let that inform your decisions right, and always be listening to your body so that you are mentally engaged, and then the consistency comes from that engagement, because then you'll be able to, you know, pivot and jink Is that the word jink From Battlestar Galactica? I forget the word Ships do in space. All right.

Philip Pape: 38:22

So now, as you enjoy the holidays or the end of your celebrations, I want you to come up with your plan for the next 12 months based on this episode. That is your action. If you don't do that, you've missed a massive opportunity. And if you do that, you're going to have questions. And when you have questions, I want you to send me a message on Instagram at witsandweights or you don't use that platform, or prefer Facebook, join our Facebook group it's totally free and ask it there and ask other people who are on the same journey.

Philip Pape: 38:53

Now, in a few weeks from now, exactly six episodes from now, episode 266 on January 6th. I'll be breaking down the six. Get a theme here. Six. I'll be breaking down the six. Get a theme here. Six I'll be breaking down the six core fat loss strategies from the Precision Fat Loss Guide that I mentioned several times earlier. So go download it and there you can pick the exact strategy for your fat loss phase, which again starts around month three of the 12-month plan.

Philip Pape: 39:20

I'm gonna be breaking that down in episode 266 on January 6th, but I want you to click the link in the show notes and download the guide now, get a head start on creating your plan.

Philip Pape: 39:30

I mean, in my opinion, what I put together there is unlike anything out there because it gives you different comparison tables based on your experience, your body comp goals, your lifestyle and your tendencies. On your experience, your body comp goals, your lifestyle and your tendencies. Like, each one has a table that says, of the six strategies, which ones are check marks, which ones are X's for you for that, and at the end of it you'll know oh, this one strategy is what's left, that's best for me, or maybe these two strategies? I can pick one, all right. And then, of course, you have to implement it, and that's part of what we talked about today with phase Two.

Philip Pape: 40:06

So to get your free copy of the precision fat loss guide, click the link at the top of the show notes, or go to wits and weightscom and click free stuff and you'll find it in there All right. Until next time, keep using your wits lifting those weights and remember your dream physique isn't built in a day, but it is built with a plan. This is phil Pape and I'll talk to you next time here on the Wits and Weights Podcast.

The DNA-Based Diet That Uses Epigenetics to Personalize Your Health (Dr. Matt Dawson) | Ep 268

Book a FREE 15-minute Rapid Nutrition Assessment to personalize YOUR strategy for fat loss, muscle gain, and physique development, giving you a 3-step action plan in a fast-paced 15 minutes.

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Could your DNA determine how effectively you process carbs or fats? Are you overemphasizing the role of genetics in your health journey? How does epigenetics empower you to shape your health destiny?

Philip (@witsandweights) examines the fascinating intersection of genetics, epigenetics, and personalized medicine with Dr. Matt Dawson, physician, entrepreneur, and CEO of Wild Health. They uncover how genes influence health outcomes and the extent to which lifestyle decisions can rewrite the script of DNA. Dr. Dawson explains how Wild Health integrates cutting-edge AI, genomic insights, and precision medicine to optimize performance, longevity, and overall wellness.

Dr. Matt Dawson is the co-founder and CEO of Wild Health, a precision medicine company revolutionizing how we approach health by combining genetic insights, blood markers, and lifestyle factors. A trailblazer in genomics-based care, he has trained thousands of doctors worldwide and is dedicated to helping individuals maximize their health potential.

Today, you’ll learn all about:

2:15 Impact of lifestyle vs. genetics on health outcomes
4:06 The science behind actionable genetic insights
6:31 Personalizing diet and fitness through genetic testing
10:47 How genetic variations influence athletic performance.
15:35 The influence of genomics on health and lifestyle
18:29 Epigenetics: Unique health paths
21:19 Reversing diabetes with personalized medicine and health optimization
26:29 Leveraging AI for health insights and prevention
31:54 The future of precision medicine with large language models
37:50 Why strong relationships are the ultimate longevity hack
39:36 Outro

Episode resources:

• Wild Health Podcast

• Website: wildhealth.com 

• Instagram: @wildhealthmd 

• LinkedIn: linkedin.com/company/wildhealth
  

Unlocking the Power of DNA-Based Diets to Optimize Your Health

What if your DNA could hold the key to better health, a leaner physique, and more energy? Epigenetics—the way lifestyle influences your gene expression—offers a window into personalized nutrition and training strategies tailored to your body. In this article, we explore how understanding your genetics can help you make smarter decisions about your diet, training, and overall health, based on my recent conversation with Dr. Matt Dawson, co-founder of Wild Health.

Dr. Dawson and his team have pioneered a precision medicine approach that blends genomics, blood work, and lifestyle data to create actionable health plans. But before you assume this is just another health trend, let’s break down what this means for you and how it could transform your approach to fitness and nutrition.

DNA Isn’t Destiny, but It’s a Map

One of the biggest misconceptions about genetics is that your DNA locks you into a specific health trajectory. In reality, only about 20% of your health outcomes are determined by your genes—the other 80% is controlled by what you do. This includes what you eat, how you train, how much you sleep, and how you manage stress.

Your genes provide a roadmap, but lifestyle choices drive the vehicle. For example, certain genetic markers might indicate a predisposition for conditions like Alzheimer’s or insulin resistance, but strategic changes in your diet, exercise, and recovery can help mitigate those risks.

Personalized Nutrition: Superfoods and Kryptonite Foods

Not all foods are created equal, and your DNA might explain why you thrive on one type of diet but struggle with another. Wild Health’s genetic testing identifies:

Superfoods

These are foods that align with your genetic needs. For example, someone with specific SNPs (genetic variations) requiring more vitamin D, vitamin A, omega-3s, and collagen might benefit from eating sardines—a nutrient powerhouse for their genes.

Kryptonite Foods

On the flip side, some foods can cause inflammation or other adverse effects. Dairy and gluten, for instance, may be kryptonite for individuals with specific genetic markers.

This isn’t about trendy elimination diets—it’s about tailoring your food choices to what works best for your unique body.

Why Exercise and Recovery Should Be Personalized

Genetic insights can also inform how you train and recover. Are you better suited for endurance or strength training? Do you need more collagen for joint health or extra recovery time after workouts?

Dr. Dawson shared an example of an NBA player who performed worse on caffeine due to his genetic profile, even though caffeine improves performance for most athletes. Cutting out caffeine allowed him to recover better, sleep more deeply, and optimize his training.

The Science of Epigenetics

Epigenetics explores how lifestyle factors turn certain genes on or off. Your behaviors—like eating more omega-3s or getting consistent resistance training—can literally change how your genes express themselves.

For example, someone with genetic markers for an increased risk of Alzheimer’s can dramatically reduce that risk through targeted lifestyle changes, such as improving insulin sensitivity and maintaining a nutrient-dense diet.

How AI Is Revolutionizing Personalized Health

Wild Health integrates AI and large data sets to make sense of your genetic and biometric data. This allows for highly personalized recommendations. For instance, their platform might detect overtraining patterns through your HRV (heart rate variability) trends and recommend adjustments to prevent injury.

It’s like having a coach who understands not just your workout routine but how your body responds to every rep, meal, and night of sleep.

Is Genetic Testing Right for You?

Genetic testing can offer valuable insights, but it’s not a silver bullet. To get the most out of it:

• Work with a provider who integrates genetic data with other key metrics like blood work, sleep patterns, and lifestyle habits.

• Be prepared to use the insights as a starting point—not as gospel. Test what works for you and adjust based on results.

At the end of the day, the power of personalized health lies in its ability to help you cut through the noise of one-size-fits-all diets and exercise plans. With the right data and guidance, you can focus on what works for your body.

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Transcript

Philip Pape: 0:01

If you're wondering whether DNA testing could help optimize your diet and health, or if you're skeptical about personalized health recommendations, this episode is for you, because today we're examining what science really tells us about precision medicine with Dr Matt Dawson, an expert in this field. As well as genomics and optimizing performance, you'll learn how epigenetics the way our lifestyle influences gene expression shapes our health outcomes, discover which aspects of diet and lifestyle can actually be personalized through testing, and understand whether this kind of precision approach could benefit you. So, if you want to understand how your behaviors interact with your genes to influence your health, what we're about to share will help you make informed decisions about personalized medicine. Welcome to Wits and Weights, the podcast that blends evidence and engineering to help you build smart, efficient systems to achieve your dream physique. I'm your host, philip Pape, and today we're discussing the science of epigenetics and personalized health with Dr Matt Dawson. Matt is a physician, entrepreneur and precision medicine expert who's trained thousands of doctors worldwide in genomics-based care. He's the co-founder and CEO of Wild Health, a precision medicine company that provides personalized genetics-based care and precision medicine to optimize health and healthspan. Today, you'll learn how epigenetic testing can inform health decisions, discover the interplay between your genes and lifestyle choices and understand both the opportunities and limitations of precision medicine for improving your results.

Philip Pape: 1:40

Matt, welcome to the show. Thank you, philip, I'm excited to be here. So I think I've heard you say that DNA accounts for something like 20% of health outcomes and what people always ask is well, how much of that am I beholden to, how much of that affects the outcome where I can't do anything about it? Versus lifestyle's, everything versus something in between? Right, and I'm just curious from your perspective, now that you've been in this area for so long, is there anything that surprises you about where genetics really matter a ton versus where lifestyle really matters, if that makes sense?

Dr. Matt Dawson: 2:15

Yeah, no, I'm glad you framed it that way, because when I get the questions like, is it genetics or lifestyle, it's a crazy question. It's always both for sure, and I'm glad you went into it as a percentage, because I think that's what matters and that's the way to talk about it. Dna is not destiny, as we've heard that saying before. It is only about 20% of your health outcome. The other 80% is what you do, All the things that we know what you eat, how you sleep, your stress levels, how much you exercise.

Dr. Matt Dawson: 2:44

That is what turns the good genes on and off and the bad genes on and off. Like, we all have specific genes that give us advantages and specific genes that give us disadvantages, and knowing what those are and being aware of those, we can then do something about it. So there are a few genes that are kind of deterministic around some very specific diseases, but that's pretty rare. It's pretty, pretty extremely rare For the most part. All the things that we test for wild health, for example, you can do something about, and we want to find those and then talk about what to do about them to accentuate the advantages or to kind of damp down the disadvantage they have.

Philip Pape: 3:18

All right, cool. So let's talk about that, the things you can do something about, because I wasn't sure if I was going to introduce this in here, but just full disclosure, I had. I did some testing with you guys a while back and had the results and I thought it was pretty cool because it gave me a different perspective on things that I might want to look into and be concerned about or not, without you know over necessarily overreacting and freaking out on the results. Definitely some, you know, risk it Alzheimer's and things like that, which jive with my family history. But I think where the skepticism comes in is what is the scientific support for taking a SNP or whatever the result is and saying, yeah, that really has strong support, that it means this potential outcome or this lifestyle change that I need, versus we're still kind of guessing Like, do you have a fair sense of where that falls For?

Dr. Matt Dawson: 4:06

sure. I mean we test for about 700,000 different specific SNPs. The ones that we really have evidence that we can do something about is more like in the hundreds, like a very small percentage of it, but they really matter. I mean you brought up a great example. I mean you just get specific about Alzheimer's disease and ApoE4.

Dr. Matt Dawson: 4:22

So we first started Wild Health my disease, an APOE4. So when we first started Wild Health, my grandmother she passed away from dementia and one of the first patients we saw was my mother. I was worried about her genetics just because of my grandmother, which is her mom, and sure enough, she had an APOE4 gene. So there's a ton of evidence around that you have two copies of the APOE4, you're about 11 to 13 times more increased risk of getting the disease If you have one version. You're two to three times so 200 to 300% more likely to get it than general population. My mother had one copy and what I told her when we found this is like, mom, this is good news that we know about this now, because we know we can do something about it. This isn't devastating news. It's not deterministic. It doesn't mean you're going to get it and we can do something about it.

Dr. Matt Dawson: 5:06

There's a great book called the End of Alzheimer's by Dale Bredesen, and he talks about kind of the, I think, the 36 holes in the roof, all the things you can do. So because we found this with my mother, we just really started focusing on the things that are going to optimize her brain health and going kind of above and beyond what we would have otherwise. And it just so happened in the process she lost 40 pounds in three months, reversed her insulin resistance and said that she felt 20 years younger, but in that process I really believe we probably add an extra 10 to 15 years to her life before she gets dementia. So that's just a very specific example. There's others as well that I could give, but that's the first one that popped out since you mentioned the dementia risk.

Philip Pape: 5:45

Yeah, no, that's a good one. It's a powerful one on a lot of people's minds and some other ones are, I'll say more maybe surprising. Or I didn't even realize you guys would test for them, like what kind of sleeper you are, kind of your chronotype almost and whether you'd react better to certain macronutrients. And again, I have a lot of skepticism in general and that's kind of my framing on this whole podcast episode. So some of it where I'm like well, I'm a lifter, I eat a lot of carbs and I thrive on that, and they're telling me, maybe I'm not a carb processor. What is that? How do I do with that? And I'm not going to do something with every single bit of information. It's more of, hey, this could be a tendency or some correlation. Maybe that's. The nutrition side of it is where there's a lot of questions. How do you guys come to that determination on some of that?

Dr. Matt Dawson: 6:30

Yeah, no, it's a great question. So I'll start off by saying I'm glad you're skeptical. That's necessary. If someone's not skeptical, don't trust them. They're not a good scientist, because science is just getting closer and closer to an approximation of the truth. You never know the ultimate truth. To get very specific about nutrition, though, I also like to tell people that we're doing precision medicine, not perfect medicine. Everything that I would tell someone to do it's a hypothesis based on the information I have, and doing the genetics just gives us much better information. So you get very specific about that. I'll tell you.

Dr. Matt Dawson: 7:01

It was one of the aha moments for Mike and I when we started Wild Health. We looked at our genetics. You mentioned kind of carb processing and saturated fat processing. When we looked at it, mike had all of these sensitivities around saturated fat. He was very sensitive to saturated fats, whereas I didn't have any of those. I had a lot of sensitivities around carbohydrates that looked like I process fat really well. He processes carbs much better.

Dr. Matt Dawson: 7:21

So we had this hypothesis like it looks almost like he should be on closer to a vegan diet and me a ketogenic, very animal, heavy diet. So we tested this. So for a couple weeks we would do just his diet, eating like closer to a vegan diet, both of us doing the same workouts, eating the exact same things, blood tests before and after, and we did his diet. He would destroy me. In the workouts His blood work looked great, my blood work looked crap. It looked like crap. I felt horrible when we switched to my diet more of a ketogenic diet. I beat him in the same workouts. My blood work got better and his got worse. So we tested the hypothesis before we actually said we're going to do this because we want these objective markers. It's the same thing as we make any recommendations to someone we could talk about instead of big kind of macro things like you're talking about very specific molecules.

Dr. Matt Dawson: 8:04

So for myself, one of my aha moments for me too, was I was doing Ironman racing when I first sequenced my genetics and I found that I needed more collagen. At a collagen SNP I needed more collagen protein. I also had a SNP that met. I actually have a bigger inflammatory response to exercise, which isn't necessarily a bad thing. We want a little bit of a hormetic stress, but it looked like I needed more recovery than most people. So when I started, when I dialed that volume down, which would have been not the right thing, according to Ironman right. So it's volume, volume, volume. I dialed that back and started eating more collagen protein, start performing better. And with the collagen protein, all of these old tendon and ligament injuries that I had got better and that they went away. So we'll identify these things, but then we want to test them.

Dr. Matt Dawson: 8:48

The other thing is I think people sometimes put too much emphasis on the little variations. So, for example, it came back that I did better with endurance than strength training. What that did not mean is that I needed to quit lifting weights. Oh man, that would be a nightmare. Yeah, what it meant is look at it is when I am lifting weights. Everyone needs resistance training. Everyone needs these things. I may respond a little better to higher reps, lower weights. So maybe instead of five by five sets, I'm doing three by 10 sets, and when I did adjust for that, I did start making gains a little better. So it's knowing how to interpret it and then also objectively testing it. But like if you go to a doctor or a coach or anybody, now they're going to give you recommendations the recommendation that someone gives you when they know your DNA is still not going to be perfect, but it's going to be better and it's going to be a shortcut to getting to that final perfect answer for you.

Philip Pape: 9:44

I like the fact that it gives you these like a decision tree basically, where, like you said, with a test, with the types of diet you you isolated, right, you used one as a control, one as experiment or for yourself, right, you did a cross comparison, whatever you want to call it, and I highly encourage people to do that anyway, even if it didn't have the gene data and you want to know. Right, that's the only way you're going to know. Your response to training or response to a diet is to try it out. So don't assume that there's one size fits all, which is another key message here, in that people push certain diets right, that this diet is the best for everyone and what you're saying is, no, we're all different anyway and we kind of know that.

Philip Pape: 10:19

My question, then, is how advanced is the world of evidence and testing when it comes to those gene environment interactions? So some of the ones you just mentioned I feel like we're still in the infancy of that when it comes to like big RCTs, randomized control trials and meta-analysis on that stuff. At least, I haven't seen too much of it in the evidence-based fitness side of the thing, but maybe it's more in the genomics and the hard sciences that I don't pay as much attention to. What's the state of evidence today in that?

Dr. Matt Dawson: 10:47

Yeah, so as a scientist, you always want more and bigger RCTs and all of that, so I'm excited for where it's going to go. However, six years ago when we started doing this, when I started looking, I was surprised at how much evidence there was. There was a lot of evidence. Nobody was just doing it yet and that's common, like in medicine, we're always like 15 years behind the evidence. So there is a fair amount. I mean and you mentioned athletics, so there's even.

Dr. Matt Dawson: 11:10

There are studies in athletics where they randomize. There's a soccer team in Great Britain there, also with some other sports teams. I've seen a few different of these studies where they randomized the athletes to getting the standard workout or having it adjusted somewhat for their genetic profiling, like I just mentioned. And in those studies the ones who were randomized to get the genetic-based program did better. They made quicker gains when it came to cross-lateral jumping and a few other specific things that they were measuring. So there is evidence. There's not these massive RCTs, but I think it's unfair to even think there would be, because there's no pharmaceutical company putting a billion dollars behind the studies. So the studies are expensive and, while I'd love to have more to me, there's enough evidence to actually start doing something, but being cognizant of the fact that I'm going to try this, this is probably going to work, but I'm going to actually measure it and have an objective marker to make sure that it's working, because there's plenty of what we don't know.

Philip Pape: 12:03

Yeah, yeah, yeah, I agree, that's the case in a lot of these fields. So I was just curious about it and I also think just being just taking the step to do this type of testing I think puts somebody in a position of the awareness and taking an action towards something Like I could imagine. Whatever the result is, you're going to improve something in your life, cause I know I had some, you know, second thoughts about certain things. Can you give us another, maybe, case where the insights from this lead to quite different recommendations for like two different people? Yeah, cause I mean your. Your results is like a 50 page or a hundred page document. Right, there's a lot in there, but maybe one that people would be really fascinated by. Yeah, for sure.

Dr. Matt Dawson: 12:40

So you're talking about athletics. That's kind of your focus. It's very specific. This is a max contract NBA player that we saw who. He came to us and his specific issue actually came as his mood issues. He's having kind of depression, anxiety, kind of low levels throughout the season, and so what we didn't do is what traditional medicine would do, like put him on SSRI or something like that, the Band-Aid. That's not getting to the root cause. So we looked at his genetics. Then we compared that to his lifestyle. What is he doing?

Dr. Matt Dawson: 13:12

And one of the things that he was doing was the same thing that all of his teammates were doing, which was, before a game, drink a bunch of caffeine, maybe some Red Bulls coffee, something like that, because caffeine has been shown to be an ergogenic aid. It improves performance like period, like we've known that for decades, so it's not a bad strategy. However, when you actually look at those studies, what you find is that for people who are fast metabolizers genetically, they get an improved performance. That happens to be up about 80% of people. When you do a study, if 80% of people in there are going to have a benefit, well then you're going to think that this benefits people. But then when you look at the other people who weren't fast metabolizers, if you're a moderate metabolizer you get no gain. If you're a slow metabolizer, it actually hurts your performance. So for him it turns out he was a slow metabolizer.

Dr. Matt Dawson: 13:55

He also had a specific gene called an Adora 2A. That meant that caffeine disrupted his sleep more than other people. So caffeine is going to disrupt everybody's sleep some, but it disrupted his more. So what was happening is he was doing what his teammates were doing, which, for 80% of them, was probably working a bunch of caffeine. It was hurting his performance and it meant that he couldn't get to sleep at night. It was destroying his sleep architecture. So he was waking up exhausted the next morning drinking more of the caffeine and things to get to shoot around, hurting his performance more. He's in this vicious cycle. So something that would work perfectly for me. Like I'm a fast metabolizer and when I was doing Ironman racing, caffeine was like my best friend because it did help performance. For him, it hurt his performance. That's a perfect example of one genetic snip meaning a very different thing for two different people when it comes to athletic performance.

Philip Pape: 14:43

Yeah, Especially since you said what 20% of people would fall in that category, which is fairly. I mean, it's big but it's also small, in that it's kind of like with creatine, when I say most people benefit but there's actually like 25% that don't you know, and everybody pushes it and everybody says you should take it, but then somebody says, well, I don't, it's not doing anything for me, Well, you must not be taking it, right? Right, it's like we do this gaslighting kind of game which then leads to another thing I wasn't even going to ask about and I think of women's health, hormones, peri-postmenopause like that's a big part of our audience. Where does this come in? And interacting with that world and I bring that up because there's a lot of triggering there there's a lot of emotions with the traditional healthcare industry maybe not being as responsive to some of that as we'd like, and so people go to things like hormone specialists and whatnot. Where does the genetic testing come in regarding women's health and hormones?

Dr. Matt Dawson: 15:34

Well, I think I mean it's loaded. I'm trying to decide where to start, just because we've done hormone replacement therapy for women so poorly for so long that that's like a can of worms, that like we just hurt so many women over the last couple of decades since the Women's Health Initiative study. So I think, in general, medicine has had a very bad view and it's been bad for women, and when it comes to to that, most women would definitely benefit from hormone replacement therapy. Going through menopause and the risks are incredibly overblown. How do genetics fit into that? There's not a lot of great snips that would help specifically guide hormone replacement therapy. That's just something that a good physician should be able to do. There's really nice guidelines around that.

Dr. Matt Dawson: 16:17

Where precision medicine and genomics come in a little more is kind of an ancillary way. What we find is that when you're optimizing, people think I'm going through menopause, perimenopause. This is really difficult, tough it is, and let's probably optimize these hormones and replace them. But other things matter too. Optimizing diet, exercise, sleep all these other things play a key role in how you feel, whether you're replacing your hormones or not. So anything that you do for someone, the same thing with cancer patients.

Dr. Matt Dawson: 16:47

We have cancer patients. A lot of times they come to us. We're not going to say not to do like, see the oncologist and do all of those things, but the basic lifestyle things that we can really guide with precision medicine are going to make a difference in how well those oncology drugs work with, how well you feel and perform, whether you're doing hormone replacement therapy or not. So for that specific example, I would say it plays more of a kind of an ancillary role, except for medications. So if you're talking about oncology drugs or medications, we do specifically like lipids, for example. If someone's lipids are incredibly high and we need to treat them, we don't just put them on the first medication that a physician normally starts. We do pharmacogenomic testing to see which medication they're going to respond best to with the least side effects.

Philip Pape: 17:34

Oh, I can see it sounds incredibly, incredibly useful, especially since, in that case, I imagine you have a good size data set with those correlations and those medications. So you mentioned lifestyle, which we talk about all the time, and I like that you went there, even with regards to hormones, because I also agree most people are going to need some form of hormone replacement therapy, probably and the you know the risks have been overblown and at the same time, we want to address lifestyle. What kind of lifestyle improvements beyond the basics, beyond the stuff that everybody would do regardless of a genetic test? Right, like everybody should resistance train, in my opinion, everybody should be active and so on. Eat enough protein. Are there things you found that are very unique that have come out of your research and how you apply this to people? That are lifestyle habits. People who are listening would say, oh, that's very interesting, like I never thought to change that or to do that differently, but genetic testing might indicate it yeah, I mean, I mean diet is the biggest one.

Dr. Matt Dawson: 18:31

So I gave this specific example with mike and I. Ours was different, but there's a lot of other specific examples. We try to identify kind of superfoods and kryptonite foods for folks and those are going to be different for different people. Like I already mentioned my mother, so I'll mention her. She had, when you're thinking about her, snps to kind of design superfoods for her. She had SNPs around a VDR, meaning she needs more vitamin D, bcmo means she needs more vitamin A, fads2, she needs more omega-3. And a collagen SNP means she needs more collagen. So putting those together then the AI recommended like perfect food for her is a sardine because it has all of those in it. And then, when it comes to kryptonite food, she had an MCM-6, which meant dairy is inflammatory for for her, and SH2B3, meaning wheat and gluten are inflammatory for her, and that's going to be different for everybody.

Dr. Matt Dawson: 19:24

So very specific things around food we find that frequently make a difference. Supplements as well. I already mentioned kind of the caffeine example, but there are other examples with supplements as well. People talk about all times like do supplements work or do they not, which I think is the craziest question ever. They work if you need them and they don't if you don't, and so identifying who needs certain supplements based on their genetics and blood work is important, and that's going to be different for everybody too, things like vitamin D, because I always recommend my nutrition clients.

Philip Pape: 19:56

You know. Get tested for that right, because we know you could have too much vitamin D in terms of supplementation and then many people are deficient. I'm a white guy in new England and I have that personal experience with needing more vitamin D, but what you're suggesting is that the genetics itself have give you a natural tendency to need more of something. Is that that kind of what you're saying, Independent of? I mean, it sounds like you should also get tested for deficiency, wouldn't you agree? They go hand in hand. Yeah, a hundred percent.

Dr. Matt Dawson: 20:22

Genetics is a small piece of the puzzle, it's not the entire thing. So if I go vitamin D, sure you can have the VDR snip. You may need more, but then what is your vitamin D, though? And then, are you living in Florida in the summer or Alaska in the winter? All those or Alaska and the winter, all those things kind of come into it. So genetics, I think, are a key thing. I wouldn't treat someone without having them, but they're just a piece of the puzzle. Even though we're a genomics-based company, I tell people all the time, genomics by itself is almost worthless. I need all the other information, I need the entire picture to really be able to make good recommendations.

Philip Pape: 20:54

Yeah, that's cool. Okay, and so you mentioned Alzheimer's and I don't know if you mentioned diabetes, but I have in my notes that there was a white paper and I should have. I wish I had more of the details. There's a white paper on diabetes reversal. Does this strike a chord with you? Yeah, and I was curious how much of that you could say is from the personalization, from the genetics, and maybe you can walk us through what we're talking about too, versus like fundamental changes that anybody would make that would reverse diabetes.

Dr. Matt Dawson: 21:19

Yeah, great question. So I mentioned my mother and she in three months lost 40 pounds versus her insulin resistance, mike's mother. We put her on the program. She lost 80 pounds, got off all of her chronic medications. Now those are anecdotes, those aren't science. So we looked at our first several thousand patients and we put a white paper out on the results. So I think that's what you're talking about. Yeah, that's right. Yeah, type 2 diabetes, metabolic syndrome no-transcript. You've got diabetes. We're going to start treating it.

Dr. Matt Dawson: 21:49

They don't want to talk about reversing diabetes. Well, about 3% of people in traditional medicine who have elevated A1c will reverse and normalize their A1c, meaning effectively they don't have type 2 diabetes anymore. In our patient population, those who came to us with elevated A1c, 48% completely reversed it. So about half of our patients are quote unquote reversing type 2 diabetes. Is it 40 or 48? 48, yeah, so about half. So we do get incredible results. And when you look at all the other results we looked at, like LDL-P inflammation very similar, remarkable results we're not seeing in medicine otherwise.

Dr. Matt Dawson: 22:21

You ask a good question how much of that is related to the kind of personalization versus just stuff that people should be doing? I have no idea. I'll tell you what I think. There's not a study that we can do to really tease those out. We'll just never be able to do that. Here's what I believe. I believe that the personalization makes a big difference, but I also believe that there's a component to people actually finally getting to know what's good for them and they're probably more compliant. Also, I mean my mother. I hear people say well, she's just like doing what she needs to do. She always wanted to be healthy. She was always trying. She just didn't know what to do for her. So how much of it was that she's finally doing the right thing for her versus how much of it was she excited to finally have a plan for her and so she did it more? I don't know. Either way it works, and I think it's a mixture of both of those.

Philip Pape: 23:11

Yeah, that's awesome. Yeah, the more I talk with you here, the more I realize that, yeah, the power in this is the personalization. You know many of us who are in this industry who don't have access to what you do or obviously I could have a client go get a test. We have to take a little more of a trial and error approach or use their history or something like that, but still, like you said, the compliance or adherence with the personalization which gives you this greater clarity, less ambiguity, more confidence that what you're going to do is going to work is super powerful and you're just like adding an extra level of probability on top of that to make it even more potentially successful is what I'm hearing from this. So that's awesome. Whatever gets people to be healthier, matt, is I'm all for. So all right.

Philip Pape: 23:54

So when I think you said you analyze hundreds of thousands of genetic markers or and there are so many snips 70 something, thousand, I don't know what numbers you threw Either it was just massive numbers and just a few of them. Do we know with a decent amount of confidence what the correlation is? Right? You said a few hundred. With a decent amount of confidence, with the correlations? Right? You said a few hundred. How do you avoid going too far and making an assumption that of like a spurious correlation that may actually not be real, like, what's your quality level on that? What is the process? I'm just curious about that.

Dr. Matt Dawson: 24:23

Sure, yeah, yeah, um. So, as we're giving recommendations to people like, do specific things, um, again Again, dna is not everything by itself. It's not helpful. So we're not going to make a recommendation to do X just based on DNA. There's also a conversation with the person. There's their blood work and their biomarkers and all the other data we have. So when we're making a recommendation, we're doing it the same way that a regular doctor would. We make the recommendation based on all the data we have. So, like when we're making a recommendation, we're doing it the same way that a regular doctor would. We make the recommendation based on all the data we have. The difference is we have a lot more data.

Dr. Matt Dawson: 24:58

So, in the recommendations in general too, they're just never going to be way out there, and I'm trying to actually think of a specific time where the recommendation would be harmful, and it's hard to come up with one. I mean we could, let's say, for example, the nba player that I mentioned, maybe for some weird, unknown, unknown reason, like he has a gene that caffeine would make him perform better and it overrides this one that we know about. That's possible, but it's unlikely, and so we would just follow him when we say, stop drinking caffeine for the games. We're then going to follow up and say how do you feel? How did you perform? So anything that we say to do, we usually try to identify an objective marker of is this working? Is something that's going to improve your sleep? Well, we want you to wear a sleep tracker, an Oura ring, an Apple watch, a whoop, something like that, and then when we do it, and then we're going to measure and see how you're doing, so we still want to follow with objective markers when we make recommendations.

Philip Pape: 25:57

That makes sense? Yeah, and it's not. It's not like this binary, like you should get more sleep and you should get less sleep. It isn't like you're going to suggest somebody get less sleep. You know what I mean. It's more of we're going to recommend more sleep for you and then for another person we're not going to recommend more sleep necessarily. It's more of that situation. So you mentioned data, having more data. I'm curious about how you use AI today, especially as hot as that has become as a topic, and again even a year ago, when I did this. I don't know how much has changed since then, but how do you incorporate AI?

Dr. Matt Dawson: 26:29

Yeah, a couple of ways. One it's just impossible for the human brain to take millions of data points and make perfect sense out of that. That's much better for a machine. So we've spent probably $50 million in the last six years developing the AI platform to be able to make the recommendations, to take everything into account and make those recommendations, and we get really interesting things happen from it sometimes.

Dr. Matt Dawson: 26:51

A good example of this is we had a 40-something-year-old guy who was an executive, very healthy former college athlete who just came to us because he just wanted to optimize, kind of get that last 1% and no medical diagnoses, nothing else.

Dr. Matt Dawson: 27:06

But with the AI we found like they had some specific genetic snips. His blood work was not bad, but there's some signals in there and his wearables, his HRV and rest and heart rate all of it together gave a signal that said, hey, you need to do a bigger cardiovascular workup in the sky, which I never as a physician we never would have. Normally he's a completely healthy guy. But it prompted us to go further and do this clearly scan and AI-guided CT angiogram of his heart. And when we did this, we got an emergency call from the radiologist reading and said, hey, he needs to go to the cath lab now and he had a greater than 90% lesion on his LAD, which would have meant in the next year he probably would have had a massive heart attack, potentially died from that, and by finding this, like the AI putting all this together, like we probably added 40 years to this guy's life. He has two young kids, and so that's just an example of the AI being able to see patterns that a human wouldn't see with that much data.

Philip Pape: 28:02

That's cool. So now do you take those patterns and make them kind of codify the pattern itself as a thing that is looked for, that combination of that data, just in that way?

Dr. Matt Dawson: 28:13

Yeah, so we're constantly making recommendations. Then we're constantly feeding things back into the app like, hey, did this work, did this not work? So, just like people out here have been talking about fine-tuning large language models a similar thing with ours and speaking of large language models, so that's the next thing. So we have recently taken all of this IP and put it on top of a large language model so that people can actually interact with it. So, for example, like with our program now, if someone sends a question, a message, to their physician health coach, the LLM will intercept it and looks at all of their millions of data points and gives a recommendation to the doctor and health coach about the potential answer or what to do. The doctor and health coach can then use that or modify it or whatever, but it's just much better at remembering. Like the doctor and health coach, they just aren't going to remember your 700,000 genes and like your entire medical history. And we've actually put this into an app so it's on my phone, I use it every day, but you can actually interact with all this and it pushes notifications to you.

Dr. Matt Dawson: 29:16

So, like recently, I got a notification that said hey, you're overtraining, you're going to get injured or sick if you continue. And so I interacted with it just like you would chat GPT. I said, well, how do you know that? And it showed me my HRV trends and my resting heart rate trends. And then I realized, oh yeah, I've been traveling, I've been working out just as much, not sleeping as well. Historically, because I'm so hardheaded, I would have pushed through that and gotten injured or sick. But because it gave me a subjective feedback, I then interacted with it and said, well, give me a seven-day plan to recover a little better. And it gave me that, but based on my DNA, my blood work, knowing my goals. I knew my goals where I was climbing a mountain called Cotopaxi, coming up, and I wanted to get better pickleball. Those were my two goals, and so it gave me a workout plan to recover and still push towards those goals. So having all that IP built on a large language model that you can interact with, I think is the real future. Yeah, man.

Max: 30:05

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Philip Pape: 30:49

I'm excited about it. I mean, that's I's fat. I'm just imagining all the possibilities just in the world nutrition and training with taking that complexity of data, taking your health data, the biomarkers, genetics, smushing it all together and getting some amazing patterns, cause we all know that information. You know, the problem isn't the information necessarily right. It's people doing things and being compliant and whatnot but also there's so much information we're not looking at. Even you mentioned HRV and recovery data.

Philip Pape: 31:18

Not everyone has an Oura Ring, but I encourage people to play with that stuff and kind of reverse engineer. If you have poor sleep and then you look at the data and it says it's poor sleep, does that make sense for what you did last night, all that stuff. So I think it's awesome. So now, okay, we get down this rabbit hole. People are listening and saying, okay, well, what do I do with all this? What would you tell somebody who's considering genetic testing and they just want to optimize their health? Our audience is generally they're already have some baseline level of they care about lifting and they walk, and I mean most of them. Some people may be listening, saying like I want to do that. Where would you send them first to start?

Dr. Matt Dawson: 31:53

yeah, um, well, obviously, like we created a program that we think we we built to be what we think is optimal, so at wild health, we do that. What I would say just in general, though, is you're going to do genetic testing, uh, one probably have someone. You're doing it with, a provider or someone who understands it, is going to help you translate it, and because you may get things back like that hey, you have this gene, so you're at slightly higher risk of cancer. If X, well, what does that mean? It may mean that your risk of that specific cancer goes from 0.1% to 0.2%. What does that matter? It's a doubling your risk, but not really. It means you got an extra one in 500 risk there, so it's not something to keep you up at night and think about.

Dr. Matt Dawson: 32:34

So having someone that knows how to interpret this and what to do with it is good. Also, not taking it by itself. I already mentioned this thing. Dna by itself is almost worthless. So making sure you, or someone you know, can integrate this with your blood work, your lifestyle, your phenotype, all the other stuff about you that isn't measured in that is critically important as well, and that's how we designed Wild Health to be able to take all of that into account and then have someone to help guide you through it as well when you're trying to implement it.

Philip Pape: 33:03

And what does that look like? So once somebody has taken all the tests which includes, as you mentioned before, not just genetic testing but also some blood work and things that go along with that what does happen next? You know, after the person, kind of review I assume they review with a doctor kind of understand what's happening and then what?

Dr. Matt Dawson: 33:21

Yeah, so if someone was just so decided for wild health. They get a DNA test in the mouth, just a saliva test. You spit it out, you send it back. We ordered blood tests. You just go to a local lab for a request where you have them come to your house. Either one get all your blood and then we collect a ton of information, questionnaires and things to learn things about you that those two things can't measure your blood tests and your genetics.

Dr. Matt Dawson: 33:42

There's a conversation with you as well, the lost art of talking to your patient, which you seem to have forgotten. It's important, yeah, and then all of that together we put into the AI. We get the report and the recommendations, but then how you implement that matters. The perfect diet for someone isn't just the perfect diet based on their blood work and genetics. It's a perfect diet based on that that they will actually do. So we want to like. If I mentioned, the world's perfect food for my mother was a sardine. If she's not going to eat those, then we'll find other ways to fill those gaps. So having the health coach and the doctor to implement and ask questions of that relationship we think is actually really important too to get the biggest benefit from all the testing.

Philip Pape: 34:23

And how about the training exercise side of it? What kind of recommendations would you give to someone? Is there like hands-on support? Do you guys have trainers, or is it more of? Here's what we recommend? Now you're going to have to find a qualified person to do that with.

Dr. Matt Dawson: 34:35

Yeah, our health coaches are all really great at that. Our health coaches are we had a big deal several years ago with CrossFit, so a lot of our trainers are. They're personal trainers also, they're not just health coaches. And so and we do have a couple people on the team who will help even develop training programs.

Dr. Matt Dawson: 34:51

If someone doesn't have someone to do that with, the general report doesn't give a lot of specifics around training, because that is just very specific to the person, that they're what their goals are like specificity, like that's just. It didn't make sense to give training recommendations based on genetics and blood work because, yeah, as you know, and I know that doesn't make sense, like what kind of injury, your injuries, your past, your past, sports, everything, no, that shows up in your genetics. So we don't get specific on those things unless someone wants it and then the health coach can get specific or we actually have some people on the team that can actually write some programming for folks. If they don't have someone, we also frequently will. Just the health coach or doctor will talk to someone's trainer and just help them integrate that information.

Philip Pape: 35:37

They're someone that they really trust and work with already. Yeah, yeah, no, that's good. This is definitely about partnerships and having a team. I mean, I experienced the same thing where somebody might come to me who already has a trainer. I'm like, great, let's work with them, you know, as a team. So you're saying you all have genetics that say, if your deadlift or squat is going to be bigger, right, and you should go after that one, maybe one day.

Philip Pape: 35:55

You know one of the other topics that came up recently on. I had Dr Spencer Nadalski on and we were talking about the healthcare industry and having doctors who lift, and I've only interacted with a few of the guys on your team, but the one gentleman I interacted with for my plan I could, you know, I could tell, based on his knowledge and what, how he spoke, that he practiced what he preached and he's, you know, a fit individual who was into this. I don't know if all your doctors are like that, but I definitely think that's something to look for. You know, when you're a patient looking at a doctor, do they practice a healthy lifestyle? What are your thoughts on that?

Dr. Matt Dawson: 36:29

Yeah, I thought you were going to say I could tell, cause he was Jack and I was like, oh, he seemed like an athletic guy too.

Philip Pape: 36:34

Yeah, he had a coat on, though.

Dr. Matt Dawson: 36:36

Yeah, yeah, um, no, all of our doctors, I mean we just I mentioned code of fact, this is 20,000 foot uh mountain and Ecuador, uh, myself and four of other doctors recently like climbed that and so, like all of our, the people on our team, like they deadlift and squat and uh do endurance stuff and uh and exercise, like yeah, I certainly wouldn't trust a doctor who's obese and smoking and like in doing things that they shouldn't. I mean no judgment against being overweight, but if it's clear that their lifestyle is they're not practicing what they preach, yeah I would just and maybe they've got great advice, I don't know that. But in general, I want to see someone who's practicing what they preach and doing this stuff too, and not just telling you what they've read from a book, but they have some experience with it as well.

Philip Pape: 37:24

Cool, yeah, no, I get that from you guys because there's a lot of confusion in the healthcare industry about what we mean by that Cause there's definitely criticisms of, well, it's sick care, not healthcare, and all this, but your practice is definitely a more proactive. Let's get ahead of it and take control of our health and then take positive action to improve our lifestyle. So this has been awesome. I do like to ask one question of all guests Is there anything you wish I had asked that we didn't cover, and what's your answer?

Dr. Matt Dawson: 37:49

Good question, I think so. One of the things that I so a lot of times I'm asked about all these specific things biohacking type things and like maximizing longevity and genomics and all that, and I think it's all fun and exciting and great, but sometimes I think we lose sight of there's really good science on the number one thing for health, span and longevity. It came out of the Harvard study on healthy aging a massive number of people over decades and what they found was the number one predictor for how long you live and how happy you are is the strength of your social relationships. And so any of the things that we talk about biohacking and genomics and AI and all that if you're not focusing on your relationships, then you're wasting your time. Stop, go hang out with your kids or your loved ones or your significant other or your friends. That's going to be. If you're focused on health and happiness, that's going to be the number one thing. So I always like to remind people of that, as we're talking about all the cutting edge stuff as well.

Philip Pape: 38:46

That's a really great, great reminder. And it's apropos because I'm going to be talking to a couple later this week who is a relationship couple and it's the first time I ever spoke to anybody like that on the show because I'm like we don't just want to talk about protein and lifting here, we want to get into all the things that affect, like you said, your longevity, your happiness, your health, your lifestyle, and they all play together. So I'm glad you kind of ended with that here, dr Matt. Where can folks learn about you guys, either you personally or Wild Health wherever you want to send them.

Dr. Matt Dawson: 39:16

Yeah, wildhealthcom, I think, is where everything is. We have a podcast as well and social media feeds, which I'm so old I always forget what the handles for those are. But yeah, wildhealthcom, I have them all. Don't worry, I'm glad to give a plug for the relationship podcast. Hopefully you can put this one just before that one. This would be commercial for that Like tune in next time to the relationship podcast on Woodson and White.

Philip Pape: 39:36

Yeah, exactly, this one does come out before it. Yeah, yeah, so it'll, it'll be good. It'll be good. No, I appreciate it. All right, we'll send. We'll include that in the show notes. It's been a lot of fun. I know there's so many. It's okay to be skeptical we should be. You should also question the provider of this kind of thing, and my personal experience with wild health has been great. So thank you so much for coming on and sharing your thoughts today.

Dr. Matt Dawson: 40:02

Thank you, it was a lot of fun.

How Tinsel the Elf Defeated Doubt with Perfect Form (A Holiday Tale of Strength vs Shadows) | Ep 258

Something sinister lurks in the woods around Strong Point, draining elves of their strength, energy, and most terrifyingly... their ability to train close to failure.

When a mysterious Shadow Wraith begins targeting the village's most dedicated lifters, making them doubt their form and forget their 1RM, Tinsel must face his greatest challenge yet. Can perfect technique triumph over supernatural doubt?

Join us for this special holiday episode as we return to the magical village of Strong Point, where we discover that true strength isn't just about moving weight - it's about moving it with purpose, even when facing your darkest fears.

You'll learn that:

• True strength comes from facing doubts, not denying them

• Perfect form isn't just about the weight - it's about mastery of movement

• Community support and proper technique can overcome any challenge

• Even elves need to train

Plus, discover why Mrs. Claus's protein sugar cookies finally stopped tasting like chalk.

For more about building real strength (supernatural or otherwise), join my FREE email list at witsandweights.com/email

Tinsel’s Origin Story:

• The Elf Who Wanted to Improve His Health (and Get Jacked)
  

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Transcript

Philip Pape: 0:01

Welcome back, dear listeners, to the magical village of Strongpoint, where snowflakes shimmer like perfectly polished 45-pound plates and every elf has a story to tell. If you joined us last year, you'll remember the inspiring journey of a small but mighty elf named Tinsel. For those who missed it maybe you were too busy tracking your macros or obsessing over your step count let me catch you up. Tinsel wasn't always the symbol of strength and hope that Strongpoint now knows. He once felt as weak as a first-time lifter, trying to explain why they skipped squat day. But with the guidance of Whitney Strongpoint's most compassionate and wise mentor and, let's be honest, the only one who truly understood proper periodization Tinsel discovered that true transformation comes from consistency, proper form and occasionally admitting that, yes, you probably should sleep more this week. By last Christmas Eve, tinsel had become Strongpoint's go-to example of what happens when you actually follow the program instead of just doing whatever that one elf fluencer on Elfingram or EG suggests. Santa himself recognized Tinsel's efforts, entrusting him with leading the sleigh-loading team, a task that requires both strength and the ability to convince Reindeer that no, they cannot skip their carbs. But today's story is different. It's about what happens after you've hit your goals, when the progress pictures are framed on the wall and the before and after shots have gotten a thousand likes. It's about facing a different kind of challenge, one that can't be solved with just another set of bench presses, though Tinsel certainly tried. So grab your protein shake properly, mix this time. We don't want those clumps find a comfortable position, with a neutral spine, of course. And let me tell you about the time Strongpoint faced its darkest hour, which, considering we live in the North Pole, where it's dark half the year, is really saying something. Chapter 1. The First Signs, or why Recovery Actually Matters.

Philip Pape: 2:00

The trouble began on what seemed like an ordinary day in Strongpoint. The village glittered under fresh snow, toy production was hitting new PRs and Tinsel was doing what he did every morning teaching a group of young elves the finer points of Romanian deadlift form, while simultaneously meal prepping and reviewing Santa's logistics spreadsheets. Remember, he demonstrated with a perfectly loaded barbell keep your core braced, like you're about to tell Mrs Claus that her cookie recipe needs more protein powder. Have you ever actually done that, asked Pip, the youngest and most inquisitive of his students. No, tinsel admitted. But I did once suggest she try protein ice cream instead of regular ice cream in her shakes and that felt pretty close to me needing maximum intra-abdominal pressure. That's when Holly burst into the training area. Her usual sparkle dimmed and her festive bells jingling in what could only be described as a minor key. Holly was known throughout Strongpoint for three things Her cheerful songs, her perfect barbell bent over row form and her ironclad rule about never interrupting a training session unless something was seriously wrong. Tinsel, she gasped Something's out there in the woods, something wrong. Tinsel carefully unloaded his plates and racked his barbell because proper gym etiquette doesn't take holidays and asked Holly to explain. I was out gathering pine cones for our lateral raise superset station. She began when I felt it watching me. It's cold, but not the kind of cold you feel in your fingers, more like the kind you feel when someone tells you you're rounding your back too much with your deadlift. The young elves gasped. They knew that was the worst kind of cold. Chapter two the growing shadow, or why you should never skip your compound lifts.

Philip Pape: 3:37

That evening, as the village gathered around the great tree to share stories and their carefully measured portions of casein protein pudding, more elves spoke of the mysterious presence Aspen, strongpoint's most dedicated powerlifting enthusiast, who once attempted to convince Santa to replace his sleigh with a power rack stepped forward. It drains your energy, he said, his voice unusually quiet. I went out for my usual lower body day, you know, just a light session of back squats, leg press and walking lunges, and I barely made it back. It's like something sapped my will to train. I even considered skipping my accessory work. The crowd murmured in horror. Aspen never skipped accessories, ever.

Philip Pape: 4:17

Tinsel exchanged glances with Whitney who had been quietly analyzing the situation while doing her evening set of overhead presses, because shoulder health doesn't take holidays either. This sounds like more than just seasonal fatigue, whitney said thoughtfully, though I do think some of you could benefit from a deload week. But what could cause such weakness? Tinsel wondered aloud, absentmindedly, doing some trap, bar shrugs as he thought. Even that time we accidentally replaced all the pre-workout with decaf Elvish Energizer tea. Wasn't this bad.

Philip Pape: 4:45

Just then, jingle, strongpoint's resident gym equipment mechanic and unofficial chronicler of weird stuff, pushed through the crowd clutching an ancient-looking book titled Supernatural Phenomena and Proper Programming Splits. I think I know what we're dealing with, jingle announced, flipping through pages. The symptoms match perfectly with legendary accounts of the Shadow Wraith, chapter 3. The Preparation Phase, or why Programming Actually Matters. The revelation hit Strongpoint harder than doms. After week one of a new high-volume phase. The Shadow Wraith wasn't just a legend. Parents used to convince elflings to rack their weights. It was real. According to these records, jingle continued adjusting his spectacles while doing standing calf raises, because elves are excellent multitaskers.

Philip Pape: 5:34

The Shadow Wraith feeds on doubt, fatigue and improper form. It's basically like that one guy at the gym who always has something negative to say about your technique, except, you know, supernatural and actually dangerous. Whitney stepped forward her strategic mind, already mapping out a plan. They will need to be stronger, not just physically but mentally. Tinsel. Remember how you used to doubt yourself before learning about progressive overload. You mean last year, when I thought I couldn't load Santa's sleigh? Tinsel replied unconsciously, straightening his posture, because posture cues never leave your thoughts Back, when I didn't understand that strength is built gradually, like adding five pounds to the bar each week. Exactly, whitney nodded. We need to prepare everyone the same way, but this time we're not just fighting physical weakness, we're fighting something that targets our insecurities. And so began Operation Iron Will, named by Tinsel, though Whitney had lobbied for the unforgiving Project. No Excuses.

Philip Pape: 6:29

The village transformed into what can only be described as the world's most festive training camp. The toy workshop became a makeshift gym with production lines cleverly redesigned to incorporate the main movement patterns. Elves practiced their form while assembling dolls and trains, turning every toy-making session into an opportunity for gains. Mrs Claus even got involved, reformulating her famous hot chocolate recipe to include 25 grams of protein per serving, though the first batch tasted suspiciously like liquid chalk. Tinsel established different training stations throughout the village the Confidence Corner, where elves practice their compound lifts with perfect form Remember, he'd say, the Shadow Wraith can't feed on your doubt if your technique is flawless.

Philip Pape: 7:11

The Mental Strength Station featuring a mirror where elves practice positive self-talk while doing triceps, press downs. Your triceps deserve respect became an unlikely but popular mantra. The Team Unity Zone, where partners spotted each other on bench press while sharing their fears and insecurities your spotters got your back just like a vertical bar, but popular mantra. The Team Unity Zone where partners spotted each other on bench press while sharing their fears and insecurities your spotters got your back just like a vertical bar. Path has your spines back during deadlifts. But not everyone was convinced. Bernard, the head of toy production and notorious volume addict, questioned the methodology. Shouldn't we be training harder, he argued during a village meeting. Maybe add some extra sets or triple our working weight. Whitney shut that down faster than you can say eagle lifting, bernard. She said patiently when is doing more reps with poor form ever solved anything? Besides, you still haven't mastered the mind-muscle connection with your lateral delts. Bernard muttered something about lateral raises being overrated, but wisely didn't push the issue.

Philip Pape: 8:02

Chapter 4. The Unexpected Challenge, or why you Should Always have a Backup Plan. Just as the village was hitting its stride in preparation, something unexpected happened. The Shadow Wraith, apparently not content to wait for a proper confrontation, began targeting individual elves during their solo training sessions. First was Snowflake, who was known for her incredible ability to train with effort. A few reps shy of failure, she came back from what should have been a simple push day, looking shaken. It made me forget how to feel my pecs engaging. She whispered, traumatized. I was just moving the weight around like a CrossFit athlete. No offense to CrossFit athletes, but proper technique is serious business in Strongpoint.

Philip Pape: 8:42

Then came Peppermint's terrifying experiments during his back training. I was in the middle of my lat pulldowns. He recounted, focusing on pulling with my elbows and back, like Whitney taught us, and suddenly this cold voice whispered are you sure you're not just using your biceps, he shuddered. I haven't been able to feel my lats since the final straw came when the Wraith targeted Cookie, strongpoint's most dedicated tracker of macros and training progress. He returned from his session crying out. It made me lose count of my PRs. How am I supposed to ensure progressive overload if I can't accurately gauge my PRs?

Philip Pape: 9:16

Tinsel knew they had to act fast. The Shadow Wraith wasn't just attacking their bodies, it was targeting the very foundations of their training methodology. It was time to take the fight to the shadows themselves. But first they needed a plan and, as any good lifter knows, the best plans involve proper warm-ups, strategic loading schemes and, most importantly, knowing exactly when and how to execute the perfect rep with maximum effort. Whitney Tinsel said his voice firm, with determination. I think it's time we showed this wraith the true meaning of training hard.

Philip Pape: 9:48

Chapter 5. The Final Preparation, or why Effort Beats Mind Games. Tinsel and Whitney gathered Strongpoint's most dedicated lifters in what they called an emergency programming session. The toy workshop's break room, now converted into a strategy center, was filled with training logs, proper form diagrams and one very elaborate whiteboard showing the perfect bar path for each of the main lifts. Okay, team Tinsel addressed the group casually doing some low bar squat bar stretches, because shoulder health waits for no elf, not even during tactical meetings.

Philip Pape: 10:20

We're dealing with an enemy that feeds on our self-doubt. It's basically like that voice in your head that says you're not ready to add another plate to the bar, except this one can actually freeze your soul. So what's the plan, asks Cookie, still traumatized from his PR counting incident. Hit it with some heavy compounds, maybe a German volume training protocol? Whitney stepped forward, shaking her head. This isn't about how much we can lift, it's about how well we can lift it. The Shadow W we can lift. It's about how well we can lift it. The shadow wraith targets our insecurities. But what's the one thing that perfect form and true strength can't doubt that feeling when you nail a rep with perfect execution? Suggested Snowflake Exactly. Whitney smiled. Effort doesn't lie. You either train hard or you don't. There's no room for doubt. Tinsel caught on immediately. So we're not just going to confront this thing, we're going to show it what real strength looks like. Not just moving weight, but moving it with purpose, with focus, with maximum effort. The group finished in unison.

Philip Pape: 11:17

Chapter 6. Into the Woods or the Pre-Workout Kicks. In.

Philip Pape: 11:22

The next morning, a small but determined group ventured into the forest. They carried their most reliable equipment Perfectly knurled barbells, carefully calibrated cast iron plates because uneven loads are nobody's friends and enough chalk to supply a teacher's convention. Tinsel led the way, with Whitney close behind, providing form cues out of habit. Remember to brace. Maintain a neutral spine. The rest of the team followed, each chosen for their specific strengths Snowflake, whose ability to train close to failure could probably bench press by itself. Cookie, who could calculate protein and a muscle gain calorie surplus in his sleep. Aspen, who had finally admitted that maybe maxing out wasn't always the answer. And Peppermint, who might have been scared of the Wraith but was more scared of missing a scheduled training day.

Philip Pape: 12:05

The forest was eerily silent, like a gym at 5am before the pre-workout kicks in. Shadows stretched long and thin between the trees, as if they were doing their own version of superfluous mobility work. Suddenly, a chill swept through the group, carrying with it a laugh that sounded like the creaking of a poorly maintained cable crossover machine. Who dares disturb my domain? The voice seemed to come from everywhere and nowhere, like that one guy at the gym who keeps giving unsolicited advice. The shadow wraith materialized before them, its form shifting like the explanations of someone who clearly prefers higher reps and lighter weights Strength. It hissed its voice like the squeak of an unoiled cable machine. You think strength will save you? I am doubt itself. I am the voice that whispers. One more cheat meal won't hurt, and maybe you should test your max again, even though you're in the middle of a training block.

Philip Pape: 12:57

Tinsel stepped forward, his heart pounding, but his form perfect. We're not afraid of doubt, he said. We faced it before during every plateau, every failed rep, every time we had to deload. But we learned something important True strength isn't about never doubting, it's about moving forward anyway, with proper form, maximum effort and progressive overload. The wraith loomed closer, its shadowy tendrils curling like a loaded barbell, trying to pull you forward during a deadlift. Prove it, it whispered, chapter 7. The Final Set, or Perfect Form Meets Perfect Storm. What happened next would be talked about in Strongpoint for generations to come.

Philip Pape: 13:35

Each elf stepped forward, demonstrating not just strength but mastery of form and technique. Snowflake performed an intense set of perfect form barbell rows. But mastery of form and technique. Snowflake performed an intense set of perfect form barbell rows. Her level of effort so strong it seemed to make the shadows themselves retreat. Cookie executed a series of textbook stiff leg deadlifts, each rep timed with mathematical precision. Aspen, instead of trying to max out, demonstrated the beauty of controlled, sub-maximal pause, front squats with perfect execution. The Wraith screamed in frustration, its form flickering like an influencer's attention when they're checking their phone in the gym. This means nothing. You still doubt, you still fear? Of course we do. Whitney stepped forward, but we don't let it stop us. Every single one of us has felt uncertain, scared, even weak, but we show up anyway. We put in the work, we trust the process and, most importantly, tinsel added setting up for what would be the most important set of his life. We never sacrifice form and effort for ego.

Philip Pape: 14:34

Chapter 8. The Final Showdown, or when perfect form meets the perfect moment. Tinsel stepped up to the perfectly positioned barbell, his stance shoulder-width apart, because even in a supernatural crisis, proper setup is crucial. The rest of the team arranged themselves in a perfect circle like the world's most determined group of spotters. Watch and learn, tinsel said to the wraith, his voice steady. This is what real strength looks like. He began with what appeared to be a standard deadlift setup, but this was no ordinary lift. Every elf present could feel the magic building, not the usual North Pole variety that made toys dance and reindeer fly. But something deeper, more fundamental the kind of magic that happens when determination meets perfect technique. You call that a setup.

Philip Pape: 15:17

The wraith mocked its voice dripping with the kind of condescension usually reserved for gym bros critiquing someone's form on Elfengram. I can sense your doubt, your fear, your worry that maybe your back isn't perfectly neutral. But Tinsel didn't waver. Instead, he did something unexpected. He cued each part of his lift out loud, turning his technique into a battle. Cry Brace. The ground seemed to stabilize beneath them. Engage the lats. Shadowcry Brace, the ground seemed to stabilize beneath them. Engage the lats. The shadows flickered uncertainly. Drop my hips. The darkness began to retreat. Drive through the floor. Light started breaking through the trees. The wraith screamed, its form wavering like the resolution of someone who just discovered the free pizza day at Planet Fitness. Stop, you can't possibly maintain perfect form under maximum load. Wanna bet? Whitney called out. Show it your working sets, tinsel.

Philip Pape: 16:04

What followed was the most technically perfect series of reps ever witnessed in the North Pole. Each movement was executed with precision that would make a starting strength coach weep with joy. The bar path was so straight you could use it to align the stars. The other elves joined in, adding their own perfectly executed movements to the mix. Cookie performed overhead presses so precise you could set an atomic clock by them. Snowflake's lat pulldowns were masterclass in scapular depression. Even Bernard, who had followed them into the woods because FOMO affects elves too contributed with some surprisingly well-controlled dumbbell presses. But but the wraith sputtered now, barely maintaining its form. What about progressive overload? Surely you can't progress forever. Progress isn't always about adding weight, whitney declared. Stepping forward. Sometimes it's about better form, better effort, better control. That's what you never understood. Strength isn't just about the weight on the bar, it's about mastery of movement combined with a progress in your work over time. The Wraith let out one final desperate cry something about unconventional training methods before dissolving into mist, swept away by a perfect below-parallel squat depth from Tinsel, chapter 9.

Philip Pape: 17:12

The Victory Celebration, or when Proper Recovery Meets Party Time. When the group returned to Strongpoint, they were greeted as heroes. The village erupted in cheers, though everyone was careful to maintain proper bracing during their celebration jumps. That night they feasted on macro-friendly holiday treats. Mrs Claus had outdone herself with protein sugar cookies that actually tasted like cookies instead of flavored chalk. A North Pole first. Even Santa was impressed, though he still refused to swap his sleigh runners for a barbell. You've done more than save the village, santa told Tinsel during the celebration. You've shown everyone that true strength comes from facing your doubts, not denying them. Though, he added with a twinkle in his eye, I still think you could loosen up a bit about strict form during gift wrapping.

Philip Pape: 17:58

Tinsel stood at the heart of it all. His posture, athletic as ever, because good habits don't take holidays. He had faced the darkness and emerged stronger, not just for himself, but for everyone around him. As he watched the glowing faces of his friends and neighbors, he realized that the real victory wasn't just banishing the shadow wraith. It was showing that when you face your fears with well-practiced technique, unwavering determination and always making the attempt, there's nothing you can't overcome. And so the legend of tinsel grew, a story retold each holiday season to remind the village that true strength comes in many forms, but preferably with proper form and maximum effort. The end Until next bulking season.

Philip Pape: 18:39

Friends and listeners, if you enjoyed the story, I'd love to hear from you. Send me a message on Instagram at Wits and Weights, or join our free Facebook group and hang out with us as we get ready for the new year. Links are in the show notes. I wish you all the happiest of holidays, whatever you celebrate, and a healthy, strong and resilient new year. I'm Philip Pape and you're listening to the Wits and Weights Podcast. I'll talk to you next time.

The Most UNDERRATED Fat Loss Secret Making You FATTER (and Sabotaging Muscle Gain Too) | Ep 257

Download my free Muscle-Building Nutrition Blueprint to structure your nutrition for optimal muscle gain while minimizing fat gain (or go to witsandweights.com/free)

—

Are you stuck in a cycle of constant cutting without real progress? Could gaining weight be the key to finally achieving a leaner physique? What if embracing the scale going up is the breakthrough you need?

Philip (@witsandweights) explores the paradox of weight gain for fat loss in today’s episode. Discover how your fear of gaining weight might be holding you back and why a strategic muscle-building phase is the missing piece in your fitness journey. Learn actionable steps to break free from the constant cutting cycle and transform your body composition for lasting results.

Philip shares real client stories, like Jenna, John, and Mark, whose journeys illustrate how building muscle while temporarily gaining weight can lead to a leaner, stronger, and more defined physique. Whether you're frustrated by slow progress, unsure how to manage a surplus, or looking for clarity on this counterintuitive approach, this delivers the mindset shift you need.

Today, you’ll learn all about:

1:40 The constant cutting trap and metabolic adaptation
4:44 Why building muscle is key to fat loss success
8:18 Body composition math: How gaining weight leads to leanness
11:10 Energy requirements for muscle growth
13:52 Step-by-step guide to starting a muscle-gaining phase
17:25 Training and tracking strategies during a surplus
18:31 Avoiding pitfalls like gaining too fast or cutting phases short
22:07 Patience and mindset: Trusting the process for long-term results
26:30 Outro

Episode resources:

• Download my free Muscle-Building Nutrition Blueprint
  

The Underrated Fat Loss Secret Keeping You Stuck (And How to Fix It)

Are you caught in an endless loop of cutting calories, chasing the elusive "lean" physique, yet feeling stuck? This cycle of relentless dieting might actually be keeping you at a higher body fat percentage and sabotaging your muscle gain.

In this episode, we uncover the counterintuitive secret to achieving your dream body: strategic weight gain. Yes, gaining weight—done correctly—might be the most underrated fat-loss tool in your arsenal.

Why the Fear of Weight Gain Holds You Back

1. Metabolic Adaptation

Dieting for too long teaches your body to adapt, slowing calorie burn and making fat loss harder. Without a reset, your metabolism conserves energy, leaving you feeling stuck even with fewer calories.

2. Muscle is the Real Secret to Fat Loss

• Muscle is metabolically expensive, meaning it burns more calories at rest.

• Without enough calories, building muscle is nearly impossible, especially as you move beyond the beginner stage.

• Adding muscle increases your metabolic rate, improves your physique, and makes future fat loss easier.

3. Fear of Weight Gain Creates a Psychological Trap

Many people resist eating more because they associate it with “getting fat.” Ironically, this fear keeps them in a state of low muscle and higher fat, sabotaging long-term progress.

The Science of Building Muscle and Losing Fat

Take this simple example:

• A 150-pound person at 20% body fat has 30 pounds of fat and 120 pounds of lean mass.

• After a 10-pound weight gain (7 pounds muscle, 3 pounds fat) and a strategic cut, they end up at 157 pounds with a lower body fat percentage (19.1%).

• Despite weighing more, they look leaner, feel stronger, and have improved metabolic health.

The key takeaway? Strategic bulking and cutting cycles lead to a better long-term physique than endless dieting.

How to Start Your Gaining Phase

Step 1: Decide If You’re Ready

You’re a great candidate if:

• You’ve been stuck in a cutting cycle without progress.

• You’re “skinny fat” and lack muscle definition.

• You’ve been at the same weight for months or years without noticeable physique changes.

Step 2: Calculate Your Surplus

Aim for a slow, steady gain of 0.3–0.5% of body weight per week. For a 150-pound person, this means 0.5–0.75 pounds per week.

Step 3: Train Smart

Follow a program that combines:

• Compound lifts for strength (e.g., squats, deadlifts, bench press).

• Hypertrophy-focused exercises for muscle growth (e.g., bicep curls, lateral raises).

Step 4: Track Metrics

• Bodyweight: Monitor trends to ensure you’re gaining at the right pace.

• Measurements: Track waist, chest, and limb circumferences to gauge muscle vs. fat gain.

• Progress Photos: Look for improved definition and proportional growth over time.

• Performance: Ensure strength and volume are increasing in your workouts.

Avoid These Pitfalls

1. Gaining Too Fast
   Stick to a moderate calorie surplus to prevent unnecessary fat gain.

2. Not Training Hard Enough
   Without sufficient intensity in your workouts, you won’t provide the stimulus needed for muscle growth.

3. Panicking Over Scale Fluctuations
   Early water weight increases are normal due to glycogen storage and increased training volume. Trust the process.

4. Cutting the Phase Too Soon
   Give your body enough time (at least 3–6 months) to add meaningful muscle before transitioning to a cut.

The Mental Game of Strategic Weight Gain

The hardest part isn’t the mechanics—it’s overcoming the fear of seeing the scale go up.

• Understand that weight gain is temporary and controlled.

• Focus on long-term results: a leaner, stronger body.

• Use support systems, like a coach or community, to stay accountable.

Why the Best Transformations Start with Gaining

The most successful transformations come from embracing the counterintuitive: adding weight to lose fat. My client Mark, for instance, went from chasing a lower body fat percentage to gaining muscle strategically. After his bulking phase, cutting was easier, and he achieved a leaner physique at a higher weight.

Take Action Today

If you’re ready to break free from the cycle of constant cutting and want to build muscle the smart way, download my Muscle Building Nutrition Blueprint for a step-by-step guide to gain muscle and minimize fat.

👉 Get the guide here

📲 Send me a text message!

👩‍💻 Book a FREE 15-Minute Rapid Nutrition Assessment

🎓 Join Wits & Weights Physique University

👥 Join our Facebook community for live Q&As & support

✉️ Join the FREE email list with insider strategies and bonus content!

📱 Try MacroFactor for free with code WITSANDWEIGHTS. The only food logging app that adjusts to your metabolism!

🏋️‍♀️ Download Boostcamp for free and access 70+ evidence-based workout programs

🩷 Love the podcast? Leave a 5-star review or share on social and tag @witsandweights

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Transcript

Philip Pape: 0:01

If you're afraid to gain weight because the scale might go up. So you keep trying to diet down but never seem to get leaner, and you're frustrated because you feel stuck in this endless cycle of cutting calories without seeing real changes in your body composition. This episode is for you. Today, we're uncovering why your fear of gaining weight is actually keeping you at a higher body fat percentage, and how strategic weight gain could be the key to finally achieving a leaner physique. You'll discover the counterintuitive science behind why gaining weight first often leads to better long-term results, and how to break free from the constant cutting cycle that's keeping you stuck. Welcome to Wits and Weights, the podcast that blends evidence and engineering to help you build smart, efficient systems to achieve your dream physique. I'm your host, philip Pape, and today we're tackling one of those huge mindset blocks that keeps people from achieving their ideal body composition the fear of weight gain, and how it's actually preventing you from getting leaner. Now I also have a companion guide that shows you exactly how to structure your nutrition to build muscle while minimizing fat gain, and if you want to pause the show and grab my free muscle building nutrition blueprint, the link is in the show notes or you can go to witsandweightscom and click free stuff to download. I highly encourage you to download this free guide now so you can take real action based on the information you're about to hear in today's episode. Again, the link is in the show notes. Or go to witsandweightscom, click free stuff for my muscle building nutrition blueprint.

Philip Pape: 1:39

All right, let me start by telling you about Jenna. She was a client of mine who came to me frustrated after about three years of trying to get lean. She weighed about 150 pounds and she was constantly cutting calories. She was constantly trying to lose that last bit of stubborn fat, but every time she dropped a few pounds she would end up gaining it back and then her body composition wasn't really changing. We could tell by her measurements how her clothes fit, performance, everything. So this might sound familiar to you, because it's a very common situation. People get stuck trying to cut all the time and never really doing the other side of this equation that we're going to address today. Now, what Jenna didn't realize, what many of you might not realize, is that she was stuck in a constant cutting trap, even in moments when it felt like she wasn't dieting per se. It was just always in that under-fueled, under-fed situation, and today we're going to break down why this might be keeping you fatter than you need to be and then what to do instead. So let's talk about why this happened, just to set the baseline.

Philip Pape: 2:42

When you're always trying to cut calories to lose weight, there are three things working against you. First, your metabolism adapts. This is totally normal. There's nothing wrong. It's not breaking or getting damaged. It's just called metabolic adaptation.

Philip Pape: 2:58

And I think of men in this case, for example, because I can relate as a man myself. I had a client we'll call him John. He had gotten down to eating about 1800 calories a day, and that's starting to get a little bit low for an active guy who strength trains and weighs north of 180 or almost 200 pounds and I'm actually kind of in that range where, to me, a pretty aggressive diet is around 1800 calories, worst case. So his body had adapted to functioning on these fewer calories because of persistently trying to cut. And then what that does is it makes the fat loss incredibly difficult from that point, because you kind of need to reset things and rejigger what's going on or take a completely different approach, such as gain weight, which we're going to talk about and this process of your body conserving energy, of reducing its calorie burn as you lose weight and as you get deeper into a diet and be in a calorie deficit. That's called metabolic adaptation.

Philip Pape: 3:53

The second thing is that without adequate calories period, you cannot build meaningful muscle. You need to be in a surplus, or I'll call it a perceived surplus, which for some people means they can walk that fine line between gaining some muscle and losing some fat at the same time, mainly for newer lifters. But you have to have some sort of surplus, an energy surplus, for your muscles to grow. And this is crucial because muscle is the key to all of this. It's the key, it's a secret weapon for the fat loss itself. It's kind of the big twist or the big irony is that the vast majority of you are probably spending years, if not decades, trying to cut, trying to lose fat. You absolutely want to lose the weight, you absolutely want to lose the fat and you're making it harder on yourself just because you don't take a short blip of your time to build muscle. Just to say it like it is, muscle is metabolically expensive tissue. It burns calories even when you're not doing anything, and I know other tissue can do that, too, like fat, but it burns the most, and adding muscle to your frame makes so many things easier, all right.

Philip Pape: 4:58

Third thing and this is what I see all the time in my coaching practice is people get stuck in a cycle where they are afraid to eat more because they might gain weight, because their history has told them that nothing I've ever done has worked, that I'm always prone to getting fatter or gaining weight. Why the heck would I do this on purpose? That's the thought that goes through our head. Why would I do this on purpose? I just had a call today with a client where we talked about how I needed her to eat more. She was hesitant to do it. It wasn't due to any logistical or behavioral reason. It was simply the fear holding her back, and there were a lot of things pointing to why she needed to do that. We'll cover some of that today. I don't want to stretch that story out, but it's very common, so don't feel alone if you're listening and think that's you. The irony is, of course, that this fear is what's keeping you from achieving the lean physique that you want.

Philip Pape: 5:51

All right, so let me explain how this works, because let's just nail it down for you and talk about the science or the mathematics. It's really math of body composition, and I'm an engineer, I think, in terms of numbers. Not a lot of people do, and so it can frustrate people to go through this exercise. I'm really going to try to simplify it so you understand the big aha moment that comes from this. This is where it gets really interesting. All right, I'm going to break down the numbers so you think about weight gain and fat loss, maybe in a new way.

Philip Pape: 6:19

So let's just use a simple hypothetical example. Let's say we have a skinny-ish male, a man who weighs about 150 pounds. Let's say 5'9", 150 pounds. That's pretty quote-unquote skinny, but he has a little bit of extra body fat. He's got 20% body fat. Now, that's not in the obese territory, that's not excessively overweight, but at 150 pounds, this person is going to look what we call skinny fat. I'm using this example because I want you to know that there are all types of body types where you can have extra body fat and not necessarily be big right, and so we're going to start with this example, just for easy numbers. So, 150 pounds, 20% body fat, that means he has 30 pounds of fat mass. Okay, that's 20% of the 150. I'm doing the math for you. Just go with the numbers 30 pounds of fat mass and the rest is 120 pounds of lean mass. That's the remaining 80 pounds, or 80%. Now, lean mass is not just muscle, it's also your bone, it's tissue, it's all of your organs. It's everything other than fat. But just keep this simple. So when you focus on building muscle instead of trying to cut calories, what can happen?

Philip Pape: 7:29

So let's say, over a four-month period, a nice conservative, reasonable rate of gain so you don't gain too much fat, you go from 150 to 160. You gain 10 pounds Okay, 10 pounds, not a big deal Through proper training and nutrition, and that is key. About six or seven or even eight of those pounds are muscle, especially for a newer lifter. A vast majority of that can be muscle. We're going to go with seven. It's about two thirds. The evidence is very, very strong in showing us that this is a common ratio. The more advanced you get, the more it trends toward 50-50. The newer you are, the more it trends toward 50-50. The newer you are, the more it trends toward 7 or 8 out of 10. So we're going to go with 7. Okay, if it's 6, it just changes the numbers a little bit. So you've gained 10 pounds, you're 160 pounds. 7 of that is muscle, 3 of it is fat. So you've gained some fat as well. But stay with me.

Philip Pape: 8:18

So, after this gaining phase, we do a simple cut to lose three pounds of fat. That's it. The final result looks like this your new body weight is now 157 pounds. Remember, you started at 150, you gained 10, you lost three. You're at 157 pounds. However, your new body fat percentage remember originally it was 20, it is now 19.1%. Now, the real thing we care about here is you're going to look leaner and more defined despite weighing more on the scale.

Philip Pape: 8:50

This is just the math and I may be stating the obvious for some of you, but others you may have your mind blown. And the reason you should have your mind blown is you just went from 150 pounds on the scale to 157 pounds on the scale and you dropped a percentage of body fat. And that's just a small, simple example of something extremely achievable in a fairly short timeframe for just about anyone. That's why I wanted to use that example. I didn't want to go with 20, 30, 40 pound swings either direction. You know we can get into that.

Philip Pape: 9:20

Just keeping it simple, you are now heavier on the scale and leaner. So think about it the same amount of fat mass, because you gained three pounds of fat while you were gaining the 10 pounds, but then you lost it. So same fat mass, but you have more muscle. Now you have seven more pounds of muscle, 127 versus 120. And so now you have a lower body fat percentage.

Philip Pape: 9:40

Now, the bonus here is, of course, you're probably going to have a higher metabolism. Now you weigh more, so you have to burn more calories, and the portion of that extra weight is muscle, which is even higher calorie burning. Now you can eat more food. Now you're going to have more energy because you're eating more food. Now you can perform better in the gym because you have more energy, because you're eating more food, and you can have more restful sleep and be stronger than ever. Isn't that cool? Now you might be thinking okay, philip, the math makes sense. I get it, but how do we make this happen? Because you say seven out of the 10 is muscle, but I'm still afraid that if I gain 10 pounds, it's going to be fat, and then I'm just worse off and I'm where I started, or worse than that Okay, and this is where we have to understand the science of muscle growth. And I want to break this down into practical terms because you, unlike the vast majority of people out there, are going to be doing a few things very differently than most people in terms of food, in terms of movement.

Philip Pape: 10:33

First, let's talk about why you need a calorie surplus to build meaningful muscle. All right, so I had another client I'm going to call him Mike. He was trying to re-comp, do body re-comp. He was trying to lose fat and gain muscle at the same time, and he was eating at his maintenance calories, whatever those were at the time based on our tracking. He was lifting weights and he was getting frustrated because the changes were coming slowly. And why was he doing body recomp? Because he was afraid of gaining weight and the best thing that I could, I'll say, convince him to do was at least not cut right now. Let's at least try to hold steady and see what happens with our body composition, even though it's going to take time.

Philip Pape: 11:10

And I explained to him that, you know, building muscle is a very energy, expensive process. Your body needs the extra protein for the actual muscle tissue, it needs the extra calories to support the building process. It needs extra energy for recovery from training because you're going to train hard, and it needs resources for all the metabolic processes involved in your body. There's a lot going on to build this muscle and this is why research consistently shows that without a calorie surplus, muscle growth is significantly limited. And studies that look at natural lifters show that even in perfect conditions, you might gain one to two pounds of muscle per month as a beginner, and a half to one pound per month as an intermediate, and even less as you get more advanced. Okay now going back to that one to two pounds a month and the example I gave you of seven months, I think I said the 10 pounds was over four months. So what did that come out to be? Seven pounds of muscle. Of that, 10 pounds over four months just under two pounds. So I was going on a little bit slightly more aggressive side, but again, you could switch the math up, add an extra couple months to the time frame. It all works out.

Philip Pape: 12:13

The key here is that these rates are only possible in a calorie surplus. You're not going to gain at that rate. When you're at maintenance or at a deficit, the numbers drop dramatically. Yeah, sure, you might gain muscle, but now stretch out your time frame over years. And that's where the frustration lies, cause any little blip, any little interruption in your training or your life which happens all the time, especially as we get older, right, busier lives, more obligations You're just going to sabotage that. And so when people say, can I recomp, I'm like yes, under perfect conditions, or you can give yourself the benefit of life and go into a surplus, right? And that's why this constant cutting approach fails, because you're never giving your body the resources it needs to build the muscle that would ultimately make you leaner. So how do we actually put this into practice? You're like okay, what do I do? All right, after the break, I'm going to give you the step-by-step approach that I've used successfully with hundreds of clients.

Tony: 13:09

Stick around for that. My name is Tony. I'm a strength lifter in my 40s. Thank you to Phil and his Wits and Weights community for helping me learn more about nutrition and how to implement better ideas into my strength training. Phil has a very, very good understanding of macros and chemical compounds and hormones and all that and he's continuously learning. That's what I like about Phil. He's got a great sense of humor. He's very relaxed, very easy to talk to. One of the greatest things about Phil, in my view, is that he practices what he preaches. He also works out with barbells. He trains heavy not as heavy as me, but he trains heavy. So if you talk with him about getting in better shape, eating better, he's probably going to give you some good advice and I would strongly recommend you talk with him and he'll help you out All right, welcome back.

Philip Pape: 13:53

Let's start with how to implement a muscle gaining phase. First, you need to know when to start a gaining phase. Here are the best candidates from my experience and from what the evidence shows us. First, people who have been stuck in a cutting cycle. So if you've been going up and down, up and down, up and down, have not had progress, you're probably ready to try a muscle gaining phase. Just what's the worst that can happen? You gain a couple pounds of fat that you can cut off anyway. Yeah, but there's much more upside.

Philip Pape: 14:23

The second thing is those who can, for example, see their abs but they still feel skinny fat. There's a lot of you out there. You're like I don't want to lose my abs, but you don't have much muscle. What are those abs worth? What are they buying you? What are they giving you? I mean, if you are successful using your abs at something and you love what they give you, then maybe you're cool.

Philip Pape: 14:43

I'm guessing most people who are listening are like especially younger men, for example. I'd say most people who are listening are like especially younger men, for example, skinny men, but men, women, it doesn't matter who are just clinging on to being what they think is lean, but it's really just. They can kind of see some definition there because they don't have much weight on their body. They don't have much fat on their body but they also don't have much muscle right. So their body fat percentage is still quite higher than you would imagine. Like the original example 150 pounds, 20% body fat and to put that in comparison, when I am about 180, I'm about 20% body fat right, and guys I know are even leaner than that at 180, who've been doing it longer than me. So just keep that in perspective. Another person who this is good for anyone who's been at the same weight for months or years and who have not changed their physique All right, so kind of a similar situation, but different. Because you might be heavier, you might have a little extra fat and you're scared of gaining weight because you're like I got to lose this fat but maybe you're holding yourself back by not taking that opportunity. So let's talk about the actual process and I'm going to use another client, tom, as an example. I've got so many client stories that I can pull from here. It's a lot of fun really.

Philip Pape: 15:56

He started at 170, super common weight for guys that are like 5'8 to upwards of 5'11, even six feet, believe it or not. Some guys on the skinnier end right around there, 170 pounds, fairly quote-unquote lean, not happy with his physique, because really he had some extra body fat and didn't have much muscle. And I said, let's, we got to gain. And he was, he was good for it, right, he was cool with that Gaining phase. Let's go, let's, let's really push it at about 0.4% of your body weight gain per week. I'm not going to do all the math, but it comes out to several pounds a month, right, such that a decent chunk of that is going to be muscle. Going back to what I said before one to two pounds of muscle a month-ish.

Philip Pape: 16:36

We focused heavily on a training program that built his base of strength but also included some hypertrophy, some bodybuilding style stuff, so that he could really train hard and develop his physique at the same time and we can measure the physique as we go along. So that's the third part of this is monitoring his body composition changes, monitoring his bicep and chest size, for example for men, you know, that's a really great indication of body size. Making sure his waist size wasn't like ballooning up right, which it shouldn't. If you're going at a reasonable rate, you're not going to gain that much fat. You gain a little bit, so your waist is going to go up a little bit, but everything else is also going way up in terms of performance and strength and muscle. And, by the way, strength and muscle are sometimes proxies for each other, but not always. That's why you have to have a good coach and kind of understand how to train.

Philip Pape: 17:22

And so what did we track? Well, we track scale weight, obviously. We look at the trend of weight, make sure that it's trending up at the right rate and not too much, but also not too slowly. Where he's stuck, where he's in a hard gaining phase and we need to eat more, so we track that. We make sure that his strength and his performance and his reps and his volume should all be going up on his program. We look at measurements that show, you know, proportional changes, whatever those are. I mentioned the body metrics before.

Philip Pape: 17:55

Progress photos. Yes, progress photos can be a little deceiving during a gaining phase because again, you have some of the fat coming along from the muscle. So with a shirt on, you should kind of notice, especially as a guy, but even women, you know you've got your arms are starting to pop your delts, your shoulder caps are starting to pop nice back all of that. If you took your shirt off, yeah, you might have a little extra fat covering your abs, right. So that's kind of where we can play mind games with ourselves if we're not careful and having a coach to kind of look at that objectively and be like, no, it's cool, you know, yeah, of course your waist is up a half inch or an inch since we started, but look at all this exceptional growth in other areas of your physique.

Philip Pape: 18:31

And then there are the things that we want to avoid, the pitfalls that I see all the time. The first one is actually gaining too fast, which is, I'll say, for beginners and intermediates. My current recommendations are up to about 0.4 to 0.5% of your body weight per week max, and some of you might be more comfortable around that 0.3% of your body weight per week. But if you're gaining, like you know, over a pound a week, then that's probably way too much. Like that's just a simple rule of thumb.

Philip Pape: 19:07

The second thing is not pushing hard enough in your training. You don't want to waste the time you're doing in the stimulus. I'm not saying that you should ever not train hard enough. That's true you should, but there's something about knowing you've got the calories and the energy coming in that you've got to be dialed in enough where you're not constantly taking breaks, because if you're going on vacations and going on travel and shifting and skipping workouts, then you probably are going to gain more fat. And if you're going to do that, I would want to plan in times of potentially at maintenance instead of in a surplus, to prevent that.

Philip Pape: 19:41

The next thing is getting spooked by the normal water weight fluctuations that occur, which includes gaining early on. So your first few weeks you're going to gain a decent pop in weight and it's not necessarily you're gaining too fast, it's because of the water, the fluid, the carbs, and then it normalizes and then you're good to go. So the first few weeks, just let what happens happens it's not a big deal and then you can really have the data dialed in after that. And then, of course, that leads to people cutting the gaining phase short at the first sign that they're gaining too much fat or getting uncomfortable. And that could be as short, you know, as long as even three or four months, when we're intending to gain for, say, six or nine, and you're like, oh, it's three months and I'm just not liking it. You've got to stick it out. And again, this is where having support and having numbers and having data can really be helpful, because it is very easy to panic when the scale goes up three pounds in that first week, but when you know why this happens, you realize it's totally normal, right?

Philip Pape: 20:38

Most of the water weight is, or most is, water weight from increased carbs, glycogen, training, volume, inflammation. Your measurements in that week, you'll notice, probably didn't change at all. Even your waist. Even when you feel a little bloated, even when you have a little extra weight, you'd be surprised that your waist measurement didn't even change. I mean, if you're a bigger person, it might go up like a quarter inch, if that's even. It's in the noise. Your strength, though, should start to take off. I mean, for some people it's literally the next day after you have that first big meal bigger than you've been eating, and I was like, oh man, my deadlift just shot up. I've seen that happen. And then, after about two to three weeks, your weight will start to stabilize. So the magic here happens when you stick with the process long enough to get to that anabolic environment and see meaningful muscle growth right.

Philip Pape: 21:25

Remember the examples from earlier okay, many of my clients who get started on this journey, especially a lot of women, are convinced that the strategy is backfiring about six weeks in. Okay, six weeks, because the first three weeks they got through the waterway Okay, they're good, and then another three weeks in you're like is anything even happening? And yet I'm eating all this food and I'm feeling kind of full all the time. Right, there's a lot of mind games that go on, but then by I'm going to say week 12, which is three months in, that's when you're going to start seeing definition, really, that you've never seen before. If you're doing this right, even though you're technically heavier and you have a little more body fat, when you're really doing it right, that's where the gains start to pay off.

Philip Pape: 22:07

And this brings me to a crucial point about patience and mindset, because I think I said it before, the biggest obstacle is not the physical process. You get that, you get the numbers, you get that this is important. Hopefully, you've listened to Wits and Weights for a while and if you haven't plenty of episodes in the library about this, it's not that, it's not the physical process. I can tell you exactly what to do. You can go download my blueprint that I mentioned earlier. It'll tell you what to do. Great, it's the mental game of being okay with short-term weight gain. To have that long-term success, that ease of carrying around this extra lean tissue, eating more food, having more energy, looking and feeling great and better, even at a higher scale weight, you have to trust the process and the mathematics that we talked about earlier. But yeah, it can definitely be a mental game. So here's what might surprise you, because I always like to end with a little bit of a moment at the end of these shows. After working with hundreds of clients, I've noticed something and that is that the ones who achieved the most dramatic transformations you know we love the before and after photos, but the ones who achieve the most dramatic ones are not the ones who diet the hardest and are trying to stay lean year round. It is the people who embrace the counterintuitive approach of strategically gaining weight to build muscle period. The people who are willing to jump into that are the ones that have success. It might take some time, it might take working through the mental side, it might take some emotional support along the way, but it will pay off.

Philip Pape: 23:45

Take Mark I think I mentioned him. He was one of my most successful clients. He spent years trying to get below that magical 15% body fat for men by constantly cutting. I think he was doing carnivore. He was doing all these diets, you know, trying to like eat the same food all the time rice and broccoli and chicken or whatever. And we're like let's just throw all that out. Man, you can enjoy lots of different foods, you can enjoy a decent amount of calories. That out, man, you can enjoy lots of different foods, you can enjoy a decent amount of calories. You've got to commit to a proper, steady and long enough gaining phase and then we can follow that with strategic cut. And that's what we did, right. So he trusted me. He's like all right, I put my trust in your hands. Let's go six, nine months hard out on the gaining.

Philip Pape: 24:23

We had lots of discussions about like oh man, I'm noticing extra fat and blah, blah, blah. But I said but what is going well? Oh well, my deadlift keeps climbing, my squat keeps climbing, I feel great, my leverages are good. Like on and on and on. That's what we need to focus on. And guess what he ended up at the 12% body fat, I think, was the number right. He ended up doing better than, I think, most people when they try to do this. He just had a propensity for it, but he had never given himself the chance to build the muscle first, and I think what happened is his body just super responded to the stimulus and he just slapped on some meat to his body and then now the fat loss is easy, right, and he could get to that 12% body fat, weighing 10 pounds more than when he started. That's the part that's so cool, right? The key isn't just that physical transformation, even though it is amazing. It's the mental freedom of no longer fearing the scale going up.

Philip Pape: 25:18

All right, next week we are going to dive deeper into exactly how to structure your year as we're closing on the end of the year here. So, thinking ahead to next year, whenever you're listening to this, it doesn't matter how to structure a 12 month period between your bulking and cutting phases to set yourself up for an incredible 2025 or whatever year. You're looking ahead and I'm probably going to give you some different scenarios, but I'm going to try to simplify it and give you a single 12 month period that you can then shift left or right, depending on where your starting point is. Today I'm going to break down the timing, how to know which phase to start with, how to transition between phases for the best results, and then you know, we'll talk about that next week, but today I want you to remember that the fear of gaining weight is probably the thing keeping you at a higher body fat percentage than necessary, right? So having absorbed today's episode will set you up well for next week's, next Monday's.

Philip Pape: 26:15

I have other episodes before then, but next Monday's episode where we talk, where we help you structure out the cutting and bulking phases all right, because the math doesn't lie. Sometimes you have to be willing to see the scale go up temporarily to achieve the leaner physique in the long run, and that was really my message for today. All right, if you're ready to break free from the constant cutting and you want to learn how to build muscle the smart way, the how-to, the steps, download my free muscle building nutrition blueprint using the link in my show notes or go to witsandweightscom slash free. This guide is going to walk you through exactly how to structure your nutrition for optimal muscle gain and minimal fat gain. Until next time, keep using your wits lifting those weights and remember sometimes the fastest way to get lean is to gain weight first. I'll talk to you next time here on the Wits and Weights Podcast. Thank you.

Does YOUR Doctor Lift Weights? (Dr. Spencer Nadolsky) | Ep 256

Download 8 free workout programs for strength and physique, novice and intermediate, 3 and 4 days, full gym and limited equipment, with exercise videos and substitutions or go to witsandweights.com/free

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Do doctors really understand your fitness goals? Why do some medical professionals discourage lifting weights? Can the medical system truly embrace lifestyle changes as part of healthcare?

Philip (@witsandweights)  gets real with Dr. Spencer Nadolsky, a triple board-certified obesity and lipid specialist, former heavyweight wrestler, and co-host of the Docs Who Lift podcast.

Dr. Nadolsky brings a refreshing perspective to healthcare by combining evidence-based medicine with real-world fitness expertise. He is a prominent advocate for combating misinformation on social media, often using humor and memes to educate and challenge misconceptions in the medical and fitness communities.

Together, they explore why doctors who lift weights and practice a fitness lifestyle could revolutionize healthcare for patients like you.

Discover why traditional medical advice often misses the mark for fitness enthusiasts, the myths about weightlifting and health, and actionable ways to find doctors who align with your fitness journey.

Today, you’ll learn all about:

2:32 When doctors get fitness wrong and handling online criticism
11:12 Why lifestyle changes aren’t emphasized and training transforms care
20:09 Overcoming stigma: Doctors and lifting
25:57 Barriers to meeting physical activity guidelines
31:28 The truth about GLP-1 drugs and obesity
38:20 Practical, accessible behavior changes
42:50 The power of lifting to catalyze lifestyle shifts
46:09 Rapid fire: Seed oils, influencers, and fad diets
49:20 Outro

Episode resources:

• Website: drspencer.com

• Instagram: @drnadolsky

• Threads: @drnadolsky

• Podcast: Docs Who Lift

Why Doctors Who Lift Are Changing the Game

Ever felt like your doctor doesn’t “get” your fitness goals? You’re not alone. Many fitness enthusiasts encounter healthcare professionals who recommend generic advice like “eat less and exercise more” without factoring in the nuances of lifting, nutrition, and body composition. But there’s hope: doctors like Dr. Spencer Nadolsky are leading a movement to bridge the gap between evidence-based medicine and practical fitness.

In this episode, we explore why lifting weights isn’t just good for your body—it’s transforming healthcare. Dr. Nadolsky shares his journey as a physician who lifts and provides actionable advice on how to navigate a medical system that often undervalues lifestyle-driven health.

Why Doctors Need to Pick Up a Barbell

Healthcare has long focused on treating symptoms rather than preventing disease. According to Dr. Nadolsky, this outdated approach ignores one of the most effective health tools available: strength training.

The Problem with Traditional Healthcare

• Dismissive Attitudes Toward Lifting: Many doctors recommend cardio over weights, even when resistance training offers unique benefits like bone density improvement, muscle preservation, and metabolic health.

• Time Constraints: Physicians often have limited time during appointments, leaving little room to discuss sustainable lifestyle habits.

• Bias and Dogma: Some doctors push specific diets or approaches—like keto or plant-based—without considering individual preferences or what’s truly sustainable.

Why More Doctors Are Lifting

The new wave of doctors understands that health isn’t one-size-fits-all. Dr. Nadolsky and others are incorporating lifting and nutrition into patient care, offering advice that aligns with real-world fitness practices.

What to Do If Your Doctor Doesn’t Lift

1. Take Control of Your Health

Don’t wait for your doctor to recommend lifting or optimal nutrition. Educate yourself and seek professionals—like nutrition coaches or physical therapists—who align with your goals.

2. Find a Doctor Who Gets It

Look for physicians who are familiar with strength training and modern nutrition science. Social media platforms like Instagram and Threads can be great tools to find healthcare providers like Dr. Nadolsky who blend fitness and medicine.

3. Advocate for Yourself

If your doctor dismisses lifting or other fitness-related goals, don’t be afraid to ask questions and share your perspective. Many doctors are open to learning from patients, especially when presented with evidence-based approaches.

Why Lifting Changes the Game

Strength training isn’t just about aesthetics or gym PRs. Here’s why it should be part of every health conversation:

• Muscle is Medicine: Resistance training helps regulate blood sugar, supports joint health, and combats age-related muscle loss.

• Appetite Regulation: Strength training can influence hunger hormones and improve adherence to dietary goals.

• Injury Recovery and Prevention: Contrary to outdated advice, lifting can aid recovery after surgery and prevent future injuries by strengthening connective tissues.

How to Build a Patient-Doctor Partnership

1. Start with the Basics

If you’re new to strength training, begin with simple movements and gradually build confidence. Share your progress with your doctor to demonstrate the impact.

2. Look for Specialists

If you’ve had an injury or surgery, seek out physical therapists or orthopedic surgeons who understand the value of lifting. Dr. Nadolsky emphasizes that recovery plans should encourage—not restrict—movement.

3. Focus on Sustainable Habits

Whether it’s lifting, walking, or improving your nutrition, find strategies you enjoy and can stick to long-term. Remember: the best health plan is the one you’ll actually follow.

The Future of Fitness-Driven Healthcare

The medical landscape is slowly evolving. With more doctors lifting and embracing evidence-based fitness practices, the gap between healthcare and lifestyle medicine is narrowing.

But the change starts with you. By prioritizing your fitness, seeking out like-minded professionals, and advocating for your goals, you’re contributing to a revolution in how health is approached.

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Transcript

Philip Pape: 0:01

Do you feel surrounded by doctors who don't understand your fitness goals or who dismiss your lifting and nutrition approach? Imagine walking into your next doctor appointment and having an intelligent conversation about protein intake, lifting heavy and body composition goals, instead of just being told to eat less and exercise more. Today, we're sitting down with a doctor who lifts weights and wants to transform healthcare by combining medicine with real-world fitness experience. You'll learn how to find doctors who actually get it, what to do when they don't and, most importantly, how to take control of your health while working within the medical system. If you're frustrated with the typical medical advice or simply want to optimize your health beyond what typical healthcare offers, this episode will give you the blueprint to bridge the gap between your fitness goals and your medical care. Welcome to Wits and Weights, the podcast that blends evidence and engineering to help you build smart, efficient systems to achieve your dream physique.

Philip Pape: 1:01

I'm your host, philip Pape, and today I'm excited to have Dr Spencer Nadalsky on the show to reveal why healthcare desperately needs more doctors who themselves practice a fitness lifestyle. Now, dr Spencer isn't your typical physician. He's an obesity and lipid specialist who's competed as a heavyweight wrestler and football player before becoming a doctor. He's working hard to connect traditional medicine with accessible lifestyle changes and is a self-proclaimed meme specialist who calls out the charlatans on social media, whether they're doctors or not. He's also the co-host of the Docs who Lift podcast. Today, you'll learn why even well-meaning doctors often don't understand fitness and nutrition, how having physicians who lift weights could transform healthcare, and what it really takes to combine evidence-based medicine with practical training and nutrition. Plus, we might discuss some simple, uncontroversial topics like the root cause of obesity and the future of healthcare. Dr Spencer, welcome to the show.

Dr. Spencer Nadolsky: 1:58

Thanks for having me, buddy.

Philip Pape: 1:59

All right, man. So I've been following your stuff for a while and I definitely encourage folks to check you out, both on Instagram and on threads. Your feed is full of memes about what people say about doctors and what doctors say and things like GLP-1 and all the fun stuff Diet Coke, you name it and you've defended physicians who have good intentions, so we're definitely not here to bash doctors, which you are.

Philip Pape: 2:21

So let's start with the crazy stuff to set the stage. I'm curious what's a ridiculous but typical advice that you hear doctors give, related to, say, exercise or lifting weights?

Dr. Spencer Nadolsky: 2:31

Yeah, I mean, the most common thing that I see is when patients are lifting weights themselves and they go and they're kind of proud about it and the doctor will say, well, you shouldn't do that, that's not good for you, you need to go run instead. And it's like will say, well, you shouldn't do that, that's not good for you, you need to go run instead. And it's like you know to be really patient centric, you should applaud their efforts of whatever they're doing for lifestyle change and the doctor should know that lifting weights is good for them. Unfortunately, I'd say it's actually probably some of the older doctors that are probably on their way out. Kind of the newer line of thinking is like, hey, probably any physical activity at this point is good and lifting weights is is a very healthful thing to do, obviously, as you know. But it's it's so anti-patient and this is kind of what causes some of that distrust in the medical profession is when they kind of wag their finger and say, no, no, you should be doing this, and especially when it's completely wrong. So one of them is the whole like no cardio is better than weights and like, obviously I promote a combination of the two. But more importantly, what will the patient actually do? Go with that? If, like if, a patient told me like I don't want to lift weights at all, it's miserable, I just want to run and be physically active, I'd say, okay, great, you know, maybe you just haven't done some sort of weight lifting or resistance training that was at all enjoyable. And then we go from there. But sometimes they refuse and I wouldn't be like you shouldn't run, you should only lift weights. So when people do that, the opposite, the other thing that I see is, of course, really it's a lot related to nutrition. Some doctors have a plant-based bias, some doctors have a keto uh kind of bias, and so they'll kind of push patients in one way or the other.

Dr. Spencer Nadolsky: 4:19

You know, I I had a more low carb bias. Uh, a lot of my mentors were looking back, they were low carb zealots. When I was going through med school, I mean, like I was hanging out with some of the famous low carb doctors that I now kind of make fun of. It's really funny. I was a student at the time just learning, and now I'm like, okay, but you know, but then going through and actually taking care of patients, and I'd be like, okay, going through and actually taking care of patients and I'd be like, okay, you gotta kind of go low carb and be like, well, no, I actually lost 100 pounds doing this kind of high carb, uh, low fat, plant based type of diet.

Dr. Spencer Nadolsky: 4:52

I'd be like, all right, am I gonna tell this patient that that was stupid and wrong? No, I'm not gonna tell them that, but you'll see it all the time online. So patient will do, let's say, a carnivore diet. They'll feel good about themselves and they'll go in to the doctor and tell them about it and the doctor will wag the finger, hear this patient like I like making fun of keto and carnivore and stuff like that. But I'm not going to tell a patient that they're an idiot for having just probably changed their life around from following it. I'm going to make sure that some of the blood markers are okay because of it can alter some of those unfavorably, but it can improve a lot of markers in their health very favorably and it would be really anti-patient to kind of wag your finger at them.

Dr. Spencer Nadolsky: 5:38

So kind of that dietary dogma that some of these doctors bring in. It's just, it's really too bad. And also I don't even know if I blame the doctors as much as they blame the system. Basically, right now, what we're seeing and this is the threads is kind of hilarious. It's it's. You see it on x as well too.

Dr. Spencer Nadolsky: 5:56

But there's different crowds, uh, at each of these places. And if I say something like hey, seed oils probably aren't as bad as what people are saying, like you can take them or leave them, I don't really care, and what these people are, like you just big pharma shill, like you're clearly getting paid by the government to make a meme. I'm like, if the government's paying me to make memes on threads and what I like, then we got bigger problems because, like they shouldn't be paying me anything to be posting any of this stuff. But there's a lot of this kind of anti-doctor sentiment where I think a lot of it's just the system and I think hopefully in the future we see this taken back by the doctors to kind of overhaul the system. It's a long ways away. We can get into that a little bit, but I think a lot of it's a system.

Philip Pape: 6:44

Yeah, no, I mean everything you say I resonate so hard with. I'm in my forties and just in the time I've been seeing physicians and specialists over the last 20 years and then when I got into lifting like five years ago, I seen that kind of bifurcation between different generations. But but not only that cause, I've had doctors who are like in their 60s, who are super open to learning and being, you know, like you said, patient centric, which that's the root cause of a lot of it. People feel like they're being gaslit and all of that and whatever it is. And then the idea that adherence, sustainability, is probably the most important thing, because if you're just not doing it, going to do it, forget it doesn't matter what you're doing. But there's a big anti-doctor sentiment. What I like about what you call out is people, you know, fear monger over silly things and stuff.

Philip Pape: 7:26

They forget the fundamentals whether it's seed oils or diet soda, whatever, yeah Right.

Philip Pape: 7:31

And it gets a lot of views and likes. So I know you you like take advantage of that, which is fine you know, cause it gets the message out.

Dr. Spencer Nadolsky: 7:36

It's a lot of hate. A lot of hate too, although I guess the hate can bring engagement, which then brings the people that are that enjoy it too. The reason I say it is also is because it's it's like just a sarcastic, like, very like these people are idiots, but I'm going to say this sarcastically, and so that makes the, it makes other people laugh and then it pisses off the, the people that want to piss off. But those people get. They get really mad. I'm like this is just the internet, like you guys are like why are you so mad about this?

Philip Pape: 8:06

I know, and if they met you in person. You know that I always think, like if you met another person who posts something online in person, would you respond that way, because people hide behind this insanity.

Dr. Spencer Nadolsky: 8:17

It's bizarre behavior. I've not seen anything like it.

Philip Pape: 8:20

How does that make you feel like in terms of do you get stressed out or do you lose sleep over some of the negativity? I don't lose sleep.

Dr. Spencer Nadolsky: 8:27

There were. There was a time, probably 10 or so years ago, where once in a while I could lose sleep over it, because it was kind of newer back then and it would really make me mad. My skin's gotten a lot thicker and so, like I'm used to it. Some people it's just like, okay, this person's being very aggressive, I have to block them. Other people I'll restrict them. Other like a lot of some people come in and you can tell they're coming in good faith, like, and they'll even say like you know, I'm not trying to troll you, I really have this genuine question. I will engage in those people and the other people that come in shooting like really hard, sometimes I will, I'll even and some people think this is the wrong thing to do, but I'll respond, quote, respond, so not respond in the thread. I will quote it and make a very sarcastic, passive-aggressive comment and then that one will go gangbusters viral.

Dr. Spencer Nadolsky: 9:28

Some people like you're engaging in the with the trolls, don't feed them. But I think sometimes fighting back and showing like hey, you're not going to, like you can't just try to bully me Like I'm not, I'm not even bullying anybody, I'm just making funny comments. And then people try to come in and harass and bully. I'm like, all right, you want to go, let's go. You have like 30 followers and a private account.

Dr. Spencer Nadolsky: 9:51

But my favorite is looking like there was one the other day where someone's like you just shut up, you're such an idiot, you're a shill, indoctrinated doctor in their thing. It's that their profile. They had like 50 followers. They sell vintage t-shirts. So I said, well, this is interesting, you sell vintage t-shirts. I'm a triple board certified physician and I even said I don't want to appeal to authority, but I'm going to address these concerns so that it makes a sarcastic comment and then I'm able to give an educational lesson during it. But some people are like that's feeding the trolls. I'm like I don't know. I don't know what the right answer is, but I I mean those sometimes make the best topics.

Philip Pape: 10:31

honestly, like I know, if I do an episode and it's coming out maybe for this one called about carbs, like even just with carbs in the title, I think this one's called the number one reason to eat more carbs and it's about how it's anti-catabolic or whatever. I know I'm going to get tons of trolls from that just because people are dead set in their mindset. So I like what you're doing. So, getting back to the specific topic, then I mean, how did you get to this point? If you look at your medical training and practice, where you're like either I've had enough with this and I need to start speaking out, or was there a moment in your training where you thought either something's missing or maybe things are moving in the right direction, but people need to hear about it when it comes to what we think of as traditional medical care.

Dr. Spencer Nadolsky: 11:12

Yeah. So you go through four years of medical school, which honestly I think is probably too long. I think we could actually make it three years. That's a whole nother topic for another day. But I felt like my fourth year of like you could do a lot of electives and I'm, and like I'm ready to go start seeing patients and because that's the way you really learn fair um is actually seeing patients, seeing what happens.

Dr. Spencer Nadolsky: 11:33

You learn all this stuff from med school, in the classroom, but then actually like practicing is. It's so much different if people, you have all this medical knowledge but you don't actually know how to use it. Anyway, that's another, totally another topic. But you go through four years of medical school for the time being and then you go to your, your specialty training. I did family medicine, which is the broadest of all the medicine, and that's three years. Some other specialties are three years. They go up to like eight years if you're doing like neurosurgery, and then after that you can actually do fellowships and then specialize further and then some people are in training forever. But I remember my first year of residency, which is called your internship year. First of all, I knew right away. I was like wow, the practice of medicine. This where we bring people and they take a half day off work to come sit in a waiting room full of the waiting room. Full of not a weight room but a waiting room full of It'd be nice if it was a weight room.

Dr. Spencer Nadolsky: 12:30

Yeah that would be nice.

Dr. Spencer Nadolsky: 12:32

If these people are sick they're coming in for just their physical or whatever, but they're around other sick people coughing and wheezing and then you get like 20 minutes with them. You don't get enough time to actually spend teaching lifestyle to the patient. I knew right away when I started seeing valves like this is an archaic, inefficient, just ridiculous way of practicing medicine. And one of the my first quarterly evaluation from what we call the attending doctors was my advisor. There are multiple advisors at the residency. The comment was that they thought I was a little bit of a zealot in terms of lifestyle and I was like, huh, that's interesting. Like you know not to brag, but my board scores show that I know the pharmacology pretty well here and I know all the pathophysiology. I'm just trying to embrace lifestyles because that that is the right way to do it teaching page like it. In fact, when you look at all the major chronic disease guidelines, people like, oh, they're all big doctors want to do and all these organizations are in cahoots to sell more drugs. And when you look at all the number one recommendations lifestyle it always is, doesn't matter if it's osteoarthritis, doesn't matter if it's sleep apnea, doesn't matter. Obviously cardiovascular disease, hyperlipidemia, hypertension, obesity, all the different things related to lifestyle. The number one thing is like lifestyle changes and then it goes into the pharmacotherapy. But I was told that I was a zealot. My first quarterly evaluation. I called my brother right afterwards. I was pretty upset and he was like, well, you just do what you think is is right and you'll be fine.

Dr. Spencer Nadolsky: 14:18

By my third year, my last like evaluation, they were like you know what? We were wrong. Uh, you're actually a champion for what is the right way to do this. And in fact the they, a lot of those attendings, started getting into lifestyle themselves because I just kept promoting and promoting it. It felt good, felt vindicated. But um, it's a systemic and system issue.

Dr. Spencer Nadolsky: 14:45

So obviously, the people that go into medicine, that matters, because if someone goes into medicine because they're interested in surgery only they might not be into helping people with lifestyle. So they just want to go in and make a lot of money cut. People drive a Porsche. I don't know, that's not the majority of people, but there are people like that. But other people they just, you know, they're smart and they were like what should I do? I should go be a doctor, I guess, I don't know, that's probably a bad reason, but you should see a lot of people that think that way and they're like, oh, this is kind of miserable and not that fun.

Dr. Spencer Nadolsky: 15:18

So first of all it from the very beginning of med school there should be this emphasis of and now people will say doctors need to learn a lot more about nutrition. I don't think doctors need to be the ones knowing the ins and outs all about nutrition and how to deliver it. I think they need to understand that nutrition and exercise just have major impacts on patients and should know behavior change and understand ways of improving the barriers to what patients go through that stop them, prevent them or hinder them from doing those behavior changes. Here's this pathology, it's XYZ disease and here's how to fix it.

Dr. Spencer Nadolsky: 16:11

And just pepper in every bit that they can about lifestyle. It has to start early and it has to be constant. It's just like anything else. And then from there, same thing through residency. It has to be pushed. There has to be ways Now. But on another, system-wide level, even if the doctor wants to do it, we need to find ways to make it easier to implement and this is where some of the new admin maybe I don't know, maybe they'll they'll make this better, but there's there's been some talks about reimbursing, uh, primary care doctors to actually do this. So right now, you're not really incentivized. People are like all doctors want it. They're incentivized to push drugs. Well, we don't get kickbacks. People listening to this I see it all the time and I actually make a post about it every week on threads.

Philip Pape: 16:55

Yeah, you talk about it a lot.

Dr. Spencer Nadolsky: 16:57

And every time the post gets like 500 to 1,000 likes, but there's always comments like yes, you do you hundred to a thousand likes, but there's always comments like, yes, you do, you make money from prescribing drugs.

Philip Pape: 17:08

I go, we don't conferences and yeah, I'm like I personally don't I actually uh, decline all the money.

Dr. Spencer Nadolsky: 17:12

I've been offered a lot. I don't do it just because it's public. I don't want people to think that I'm um, being swayed by big pharma, so I don't. But like doctors in general, you know most doctors aren't speaking for pharmaceutical companies but there's this thought that doctors are getting kickbacks for prescribing meds and that that's why they do it. It's not that. It's that the system incentivizes just doing that and not even talking about lifestyle, cause imagine you have to keep the lights on and the reimbursement keeps going down, down, down. You reimbursements higher for doing a procedure, so like having somebody into the cath lab where they stick the thing up their legs, the catheter up their legs and then inserting a stent what's called a stent, like a little spring thing to open up their arteries. They get a lot of money for that.

Dr. Spencer Nadolsky: 18:02

Ideally we should have prevented that in the first place. But the primary care doctors they need to see a bunch of patients per day to make ends meet, in order to pay for the bills, and that's part of that's also big corporations, big hospital systems owning and doing it so like they force the doctors to do it, whereas if the doctors just owned it themselves and had better reimbursement, they wouldn't have to see a million patients per day. So you're incentivized to just like hey, I die in exercise, fine, but here's this medicine. The other thing is. So let's say they try to do it, they try to do the lifestyle, like me, and during residency. A lot of patients unfortunately don't want to change, they just want the pill, and that's something we have to accept. So what then happens is that doctors who do want to do it get burnt out. But imagine if there is an incentive to continue to push it and it wouldn't burn the doctors out Again. This is like a large systemic change that would need to happen. It's a big undertaking.

Philip Pape: 19:04

Which then raises the question what can we, as in the listeners and people who are actively in control of their own healthcare, do about some of this in the meantime, Because you mentioned some really enlightening things for folks, like one being that the system incentivizes this or that we get it, another being that lifestyle itself has shown to be probably the first and best go-to solution for many, many things, and again, I've seen that personally, I have some little conditions here and there. One of them is an esophageal condition, eoe, and I remember the doctor constantly saying look, there's an elimination diet you can try and that's probably what you want to do. When I saw that I had to eliminate 80% of what I liked, I said no, give me the drug, right, I had to eliminate 80% of what I liked.

Philip Pape: 19:44

I said, no, give me the, give me the drug, right, Like? I mean, the patient will do that, You're right. But the other thing that comes to mind is what about? I have a GP and I'm not going to name him who he's just not in good health, Like I could tell he's not in good health, like physically or otherwise. What do we do about that in terms of, I mean, we're not going to make doctors themselves lift weights and everything and everything, but is there something at the medical school level that can change that? Or what are your thoughts on that, when a doctor itself doesn't seem to be healthy?

Dr. Spencer Nadolsky: 20:09

Yeah, you know it's an interesting thing. So like it's a logical fallacy to say this doctor is not healthy, so they're not a good doctor. Now, having said that, though, if the doctor is not healthy, some of the studies show that they're not as likely to maybe recommend the lifestyle changes there's. Also, potentially patients may not respond as well if they were. Now there's some of that data's mix. I've seen some kind of contradictory information there. So like, let's say, the doctor's struggling with their weight themselves, but they're trying and they try to help their patient, the patient will respond to that. But if, let's say, they just kind of give this lackadaisical and it's clear that they're not putting in a lot of effort, the patient may not respond as favorably to, and or the doctor won't even give that recommendation. So how to change that? I mean, you know I I promote how. Obesity is a disease and we can get into that. That's not a communicable disease where you catch it, although some people think that is possible, but it's. It's not one of those things. It's physiopathophysiological level. It's just more it kind of fits that chronic disease model, kind of like type 2 diabetes. So a lot of people struggle with it. Doctors can struggle with it. But I think if we try to again, starting in medical school, really promote this idea of, like, healthy living and some of these medical schools are, it's kind of this more forward thinking way they're teaching them how to cook, they're teaching them which we all should have cooking skills by the time we're in med school it's after college, but some people just don't know how to. Some people have never touched a weight before. Some people have never done physical activity. So then I do think it's important to doctors should be at least trying to practice what they preach. I don't think they need to look like bodybuilders or anything like that, but they ideally would be trying their best to have their own lifestyle be good. It doesn't mean that if they don't have that, they don't have the brain or the smarts and the right recommendations. Like, for example, there was just a post the other day that said if your doctor can't do a couple pull-ups, you need to find another doctor. And someone was like well, god, I don't care if my oncologist or my whoever can do a couple pull-ups, I want to make sure, I want to know that they're, that they're a good doctor. So, like you know, that's a little bit extreme, it's more so. This like, hopefully that they're trying to live their own healthy lifestyle, and then they're. But we're all kind of human, you know.

Dr. Spencer Nadolsky: 22:56

Yeah, trying to think of some unhealthy things that I do. I sometimes, at night, I'll snack on some like potato chips, because it's like kettle if they're in the house. If they're not in the house, I don't need them. Lime, actually lime, uh, tortilla, hint of lime, tortilla chips. It cannot be in the house. I will, I'll put the kids down, I'll grab a handful with some salsa and it's just, it's so. It's the salty crunchy flavor that's just great.

Philip Pape: 23:20

Yeah, yeah, so anyway I have some beds.

Dr. Spencer Nadolsky: 23:23

I I can't say that I'm perfect by any means, but but, like you know, obviously I live a mostly healthful lifestyle. So, again, ideally, again. But people are behavior, change is tough and most I was just looking at how many people follow the current healthcare guidelines so I posted this on threads about how like people are, like the government doesn't promote exercise, the government doesn't care if you're healthy and I'm like. Well, the cdc has their recommendations for physical activity. It talks about 150 minutes physical activity and that's in addition to two days a week of strength training. Those are pretty like and it's very few people actually get that. I mean it's. I was looking it up. It was around maybe a 25% of people hit those numbers, but I can't even imagine 25% of people actually hit those numbers, cause like like that's two days a week of strength. How many people are actually doing that part? Let alone the 150 minutes of, uh, moderate intensity aerobic training. I just I don't anyway. So, um, but getting people to do it, it's tough, it's just tough.

Philip Pape: 24:27

Yeah, it is tough. I mean, I know sometimes you make fun of nutrition coaches, which I am, and that's cool, cause I get where you're coming from, especially when they say things like you know, doctors don't get any nutrition training and stuff like that. But a lot of us got into this, seeing the behavior change side of it as being the obstacle for a lot of folks. Right, and now you got me thinking. When it comes to GPs, and primary care is potentially being incentivized, I could see that being its own specialty almost, of preventive care, like you get in you have a GP and or a behavior physician, I don't know what you'd call it, but like that, that's an interesting concept because you're right, that would, that would and that would save healthcare a lot of money. That would save insurance companies a lot of money too. I think it's not that they don't get it right, but it's a huge system with a lot of friction in it.

Philip Pape: 25:14

So I mean, what about the lifting part of it? So you're a doc who lifts weights. You talk about it with your brother on the show all the time. I guess the younger doctors are getting more into it. I know one of my surgeons. I had back surgery. He was definitely catering to athletes and you can see it in his language and understanding of it. He knew. So one of the biggest things, Spencer, is when you get injured or you have surgery or you're older, there's all these fears about getting hurt and you shouldn't lift anymore or you shouldn't get back to lifting Right and like. First thing I wanted to do after back surgery was get my deadlift back up and then hit a pr.

Philip Pape: 25:46

You know like and some people be like you're crazy, you can't do that.

Philip Pape: 25:49

So, like, what are your thoughts on that? Again, I don't know how we can change the whole system, but just for the listener who lifts?

Dr. Spencer Nadolsky: 25:56

this is where it has to start med school and and then obviously, if they're doing, if they're a surgeon, they went through training the old guard and this is going to sound ageist, it's like I'm not woke or anything like that, but of course I make. I'm like people online are like you're a woke, elitist, liberal, democrat, doctor and I'm like man, if you knew me, I'm, you know I'm not like that, but like so I'll post and then I'll, you know, get it from the, the right and I'll get it. I'll get heat from the left. So if I post something like you're an ageist, ableist, I'm like no, no, I swear to God, I'm just trying to be reasonable here. But there's an old guard and they're going to retire at some point here and that's going to be a good thing. Like you said, there's some of them have an open mind and some of them are lifting weights and have that forward way of thinking and not stuck in their old ways. But there are a lot that just they're going to need to retire and I hate saying this, but some of them are kind of these old dinosaur folks not saying younger folks are better. It's just that we are able to have gotten more of a bigger array of of understanding of how exercise works, like.

Dr. Spencer Nadolsky: 27:11

So I tore my biceps. I was doing juju. I'm a wrestler, but I was doing jujitsu and someone put me in an arm bar and I curled them up because I didn't know what the heck it was. I didn't know what was going on. I was like what is it? My arm feels stuck. I curled them up, my my felt my biceps just pop and I was like what the hell is that? Anyway, head surgery pretty quickly. And my guy was I've read all these things where they put your arm in this like, basically like a cast type of thing, and you can only use the range of motion. Uh, they, they adjusted the range of motion every however many weeks by like a centimeter. They adjusted the range of motion every however many weeks by like a centimeter. All these different things.

Dr. Spencer Nadolsky: 27:48

My guy was into lifting. He treated a lot of the seals, navy seals, and he was like no man. Like you know, don't be an idiot with it, but like you should be aggressive here I've seen very good things. I went to the physical therapy two times and I was already progressed way past what they'd ever seen, because and I wasn't an idiot about it. I wasn't like doing curls after my surgery but, like I was, I was moving it a lot and, you know, started to do very light back rows and things like that, things that like normally they wouldn't have allowed, and because of that it got strong very quickly. You know. It again, it takes this. People are a little too conservative. You know you don't want to be too aggressive, but I see this all the time where it's like whatever, like a hernia surgery, other types of surgery, like no, you should never lift again more than five pounds. I'm like what, what is that?

Philip Pape: 28:48

didn't even make any sense your body is five pounds, right, yeah, you gotta think, yeah, you gotta think.

Dr. Spencer Nadolsky: 28:54

You gotta think, okay, biomechanically, I think, anatomically, I think, like, from a pathophysiology standpoint, like, why would that make sense? And honestly, if you just think of it logically, you know, yeah, sure, do we need studies to look at what happens over time? Yeah, sure we do. But like, at the same time, it's like you just have some common sense about that. Why would, why would you not be able to do x?

Dr. Spencer Nadolsky: 29:18

You know lifting xyz, or you know if, if it's a some sort, hey, yeah, maybe you shouldn't be doing like the world's power lifting competitions anymore, although, like you know, even at that point some people are going to. You know, that's their passion, it's what gives them purpose. You know, you still want to be kind of that patient centric, but again, I think that I think it would start in in training, uh, especially for the surgeons who are I've seen that so many times and it's like, okay, let's, let's back up and think about this from a very logical standpoint. Let's use science to do it, not be idiots about it. And, yes, we should. You know run trials, but they can be expensive. But I agree with you, it's it's. We see that a lot. Nope, no more XYZ exercise. It's like huh, it doesn't make any sense.

Philip Pape: 30:09

Yeah, I mean, I personally even though this is anecdotal I've never heard of dozens of hundreds of people doing this. That made it worse. I mean, I'm sure somebody went too aggressive, but it's definitely the norm being the opposite, not doing it enough.

Philip Pape: 30:21

And then you get the scar tissue and limited mobility. And then now, a year later, you're trying to do something with this, you know tight tendon or scar tissue, whatever. It's a lot harder to do. It's funny I have a physical therapist. He's remote, he's in New York, I'm in Connecticut, he's a barbell trainer who's also a physical therapist. It's got like a combined practice, like man, if you're a patient, and they kind of can handle both sides, they can walk both sides of it really nicely for you and be aggressive.

Dr. Spencer Nadolsky: 30:48

It's hard to find those types of folks, but yeah, when you do it's like oh God, yeah, yeah.

Philip Pape: 30:53

Yeah, that's what we need More, more, more guys like that, more guys like you out there to do that. So let's talk about the obesity stuff, cause there's definitely a lot of mean material there, but it's also a very serious thing. So I've got some of the quotes from your recent posts, like telling someone with obesity to eat less and move more, similar to telling someone with anxiety just to calm down.

Dr. Spencer Nadolsky: 31:11

Yeah.

Philip Pape: 31:12

Right, or calories matter, but appetite drives the bus. Let's just talk about like okay, what are the myths about obesity? People keep spreading, that doesn't help, and what are the top couple things that we need to understand to be empathetic and also to help ourselves and others with obesity. You know, move forward.

Dr. Spencer Nadolsky: 31:27

Yeah. So whenever I talk about like, let's say, obesity is is the disease? Obesity is more than willpower and discipline People will say, no, you're taking out the personal responsibility. It's just an energy balance problem. They just need to eat fewer calories. I'm like these aren't mutually exclusive. Like energy balance problem, they just need to eat fewer calories. I'm like these aren't mutually exclusive. Like energy balance absolutely is the underlying factor here. That doesn't.

Dr. Spencer Nadolsky: 31:53

The energy balance principles don't tell us what drives the obesity, and that's kind of some straw man type of arguments you see out. There is that like just because energy balance doesn't tell us the why things happen doesn't mean it's still not true type of thing. It's. Energy balance doesn't tell us the why things happen doesn't mean it's still not true type of thing. Energy balance is absolutely true. What goes on with obesity?

Dr. Spencer Nadolsky: 32:14

And a lot of these patients most of these patients have tried to eat fewer calories in some sort of form of fashion whether it's counting calories, a ketogenic diet, vegan, plant-basediterranean, paleo, grapefruit diets unfortunately lots of the different fads and that type of thing and what happens is that over time, as they try to do this, their brain kind of fights back and, in a form of like appetite dysregulation, it increases. They've done this mathematically. There's a really brilliant researcher out there named Kevin Hall who has shown this mathematically and kind of looked at appetite changes and how, when people lose weight, their appetite gets ramped up, up and up and up the more and more you lose weight. Now I'd say this is more individual, because you do see some people like who've lost 100 or 200 pounds and have kept it off for, you know, a few years even sometimes, and they're doing okay.

Philip Pape: 33:13

Oh so, like you know, it's not it's not, like, guaranteed that you're going to have this strong, what I'd call biologically, uh appetite drive which hold on that spencer, because that's important for people to know that right there there are massive differences between people and so many people will put their own perspective on others in that department and I've seen it with clients too, where they have zero appetite at any level of dieting, and others that like just start a calorie deficit and it's like holy crap, what are we gonna do about this?

Dr. Spencer Nadolsky: 33:44

yeah, yeah, individual difference. And this is where because you'll see online in fact you know a lot of the people that have the strongest like obesity bias are those who used to struggle with obesity themselves and have overcome it with lifestyle. Only They'll say, basically, since I did it, everybody can do it. And if you can't do it, it means you're not trying hard enough, you're just lack discipline. And I think you know, if we put ourselves in other people's shoes, it's hard to put ourselves in their shoes. I'm like you know, I think some of some of us listening when you're in elementary school you could probably do things better or worse than other kids in your class. And it's like none of those kids in your class were working hard at whatever they're good at. It's just they were naturally better at something, whether it's math or running or whatever. You can obviously improve with practice.

Dr. Spencer Nadolsky: 34:40

We're not set, you know, genetically determined exactly, but there's genetic differences that in upbringing that change our trajectory. So you can imagine genetic and biological differences of why. I mean, we see it as it's, about 15 or so percent of people will lose a substantial amount of weight and keep it off over the course of a year with just lifestyle alone. And when I say that it's around 15 or so percent total body weight loss or more, you can get up to, you know, maybe 20%, but around 15%. So let's say you're 200 pounds, 10% would be 20 pounds, 15% would be 30 pounds, you get down to 170. So around 15% of people. And so when you look at lifestyle changes, about 15% of people will lose about 15% of their weight. More people lose around 5% of their weight. More people lose around five percent of their weight, which is considered clinically significant.

Dr. Spencer Nadolsky: 35:30

But, like when we're looking at these newer drugs like semaglutide, which is the ozempic Wegovi or manjaro Zepbon, which is terzapatide, those drugs get around 15 percent average body weight loss. We're talking about semaglutide, 20 percent for teriseptide or even a little bit more. And when you look at how many people achieve those results, you're starting to get into like half or three-fourths of those people are starting to lose an average of 15 or more percent total body weight loss Whereas, like, only 15%, a very minority of people lose that amount of weight with lifestyle alone. So what's different about those people that are able to do it biologically? They probably don't have that strong, as as much of a strong driver. Maybe they found some other ways to cope with that, uh, appetite change, but I think it's important for people to know those biological yeah uh differences. I don't even know what started this conversation.

Philip Pape: 36:29

No, no, no, that's perfect because because ultimately I'm going to tie this back to kind of the behavior change and the medical industry and all that but I definitely want people to understand and also not feel totally defeated when they find that their experience is different, especially I mean, we had dr Stephan Guine. You know he talks about, yeah, the brain and you mentioned it as well. A recent study came out too about again confirming, like epigenetics and the importance of during your lifetime, even when you've dieted many times. That seems tends to exacerbate that for a variety of reasons, which is amazing to think about that. When you mentioned, like the drugs versus not the drugs, we try to have a nuanced discussion about that.

Philip Pape: 37:08

Even though people get livid about the GLP-1s and all that, there's a gradient. There's people who desperately need it because nothing else has worked and they have a lot of weight to lose for their health. There's people who maybe have been using it and then were able to sort of clean up their lifestyle because now this massive signal is not there and then they can gradually titrate off of it. And then there's maybe folks that don't need it and fine, there's a fair criticism there and the behavior change piece of it like you talk about diet soda. Let's go there. You talk about how, like you had a patient who swapped all her regular soda for diet soda, lost a bunch of fat and then her type 2 diabetes went into remission, right.

Dr. Spencer Nadolsky: 37:47

Yeah.

Philip Pape: 37:48

Like. I think that's a great example of an accessible change that is not too far right. And then now was that patient on these drugs? No, right?

Dr. Spencer Nadolsky: 37:58

No, no yeah.

Philip Pape: 38:00

So you know, tying that back to the system, the broken system. What do you want listeners to come out of this thinking? If they feel like they're not able to lose the fat, not able to lose the weight, their appetite's always super strong and maybe they aren't willing to go on the drugs. Whatever, what's step one?

Dr. Spencer Nadolsky: 38:17

Yeah, you bring up some good points. What's step one? Okay, so I would say normalize, or understand that you're not a failure if you're unable to do a lifestyle. I think that's people will say they failed lifestyle and it's it's a somewhat of stigmatizing.

Dr. Spencer Nadolsky: 38:37

I've used it in the past because we, you know, you like for you, for example, for your esophagitis, eosinophilic esophagitis let's say you, you took a certain, you did the elimination diet. Uh, what they would write in the note patient failed conservative therapy. Moving on to the steroid or whatever they're using. So with diet and exercise, when trying to lose weight, we'd say patient, uh, failed diet and exercise. And now we've, we've changed it because the patient didn't necessarily fail, they didn't, just didn't respond. So now we say we've changed it because the patient didn't necessarily fail, they didn't, just didn't respond. So now we say they didn't respond to it. So some people don't respond it. And people will say, well, they're not working hard enough, they're not whatever. Instead of shifting the blame to the patient because that's what we do, we're like they clearly not doing it why don't we shift it towards hey, hey, maybe it's. This biological drive is just too hard to overcome. And that doesn't mean take away all person. People are like you. Just want to take away personal responsibility and sell drugs. I'm like I swear. I swear I'm not. I'm just thinking of this differently here. Shift it to more of understanding this biology. So for people out there there, don't think of yourself as a failure if you're unable to do a lifestyle. You try, try your hardest, try your best. There are, you know, people do respond. Don't not think you can, don't think you cannot try, you, try, uh. And then if you aren't responding to it and you do need to lose weight for clinical reasons, you have type two diabetes, sleep apnea, those types of things, and it's like I really need to lose 20% of my weight or 15 or so percent of my weight.

Dr. Spencer Nadolsky: 40:15

There are medicines out there Now the big thing right now is that they're not covered very readily, like 40% of commercial insurances that pay for it, that some of those places are dropping it because it's so expensive. I think we're going to see a lot different in 10 years because the drug costs are going to come lower. More competition is going to drive these drugs lower and lower in terms of cost. So, um, but I would just know that. Just hold out hope that there are therapies out there. Now you don't again. You don't have to take these medicines uh, no one's forcing you to. But that's what I would tell people. Step one, just like don't think of yourself as a failure. Do know that it is possible for some people to use lifestyle only. Do know that there are other therapies out there. If you don't respond to that, that's what I would say. If you don't respond to that.

Heather: 41:04

That's what I would say. Hello, my name is Heather and I am a client of Philip Pace. Just six days after I started this cut, my family and I were in a 7.9 magnitude earthquake here in Adana, turkey. As I tried to process the stress and trauma, my first instinct was to say, oh, you've been through something hard, this is not a good time. But instead I reached out to my coach and he got me under the bar that day and he helped me keep my macros that day.

Heather: 41:29

And not only did I realize that I was doing something fantastic for my body, but I realized that I was doing something fantastic for my mind and that it was going to help me keep the mental clarity that I was going to need to get my family through what really has been a very difficult two months. Here I am on the other side of eight weeks, got my kids through all the things that we have been through, and I weigh 12 pounds less than I did, and I got a new PR on my bench press. I have a long way to go and there are still things that I really want to accomplish, but now I know that I can and I'm really grateful. Thank you, philip.

Philip Pape: 42:05

And when we talk about lifestyle, what? What is the? So I'll tell you my opinion on on lifestyle, just just from again, anecdotally, it seems that being more active and strength training tends to be a catalyst for a lot of people, if they can get into it for other things, even nutrition, like if I have someone say, should I do nutrition?

Philip Pape: 42:22

Like if it's, if it's a thought experiment, fix my nutrition or fix my exercise and start. I'm like, just start lifting weights because you're going to find the nutrition follows it, you're going to want to feel your body. That's just my opinion. How many folks do you think who are being, say, encouraged to take these drugs, are seriously trying or being given the information for lifting and training? You know, building muscle, building straight, that, that piece of it, cause I think that's, I think that's missing in a lot of this.

Dr. Spencer Nadolsky: 42:54

Yeah, so the let's see. So there's two parts to this how many people are being given the information and then how many people are actually following through if they're given that information. So if I had to guess, I would say the minority of people are being given that information. Just based off of my, I don't even know how this would be studied. That you'd have to look at. You'd have to go back and look at large EMR databases and then look at the note of what they said. But even still, even if they put it in their note, did they actually tell them how to do it? Hard to study it. But okay, let's let me give my my guess. Though, if I had to guess, 10 are being told to do it, maybe 20 at the most. I I just can't imagine. I can't imagine it's more than that, because you go to it's it's.

Philip Pape: 43:43

We've already talked about the beginning we talked about it, doctors, just don't all get it.

Dr. Spencer Nadolsky: 43:47

Yeah, so they might say, like you know, make sure you're, I don't know, make sure you're exercising. That might be the the extent of it, specifically weight training. Oh, the, it's got to be small, it's got to be small. And then, and then like, are they giving recommendations beyond, just hey, you should go weight train. I, there's just no way. There's just no way. So it's got to be the minority people. Now let's say that they're a big proponent. Let's say they come to me.

Dr. Spencer Nadolsky: 44:12

I have a program I mean I have I call it lift rx and I I'm like pushing it hard and I, you know, of course I don't force people to do it. I can't force people to do it, but even still, that percentage of actually people when I'm it it's. If I had to guess again, this will be. I have a study that I'll be starting here soon, looking at body composition, because that's what everybody wants to see is like, okay, what's going on here? We're going to look at strength and body compositions after they start these medicines, and the reason it's going to be cool is because I will be pushing, lifting hard. So then, what we're going to do it's not a trial where we do one group gets a placebo, the other one. It's an observational thing.

Dr. Spencer Nadolsky: 44:53

So if in my clinic I'm pushing it hard, regardless, it'll be interesting to see the percentage of people that actually do it and we'll make sure we follow them along. Again, we'll see who doesn't do it versus who does it. But everybody will get very aggressive, like counseling, to do it and we'll we'll make sure we follow them along. It's again, if we'll see who doesn't do it versus who does it, but everybody will get very aggressive, like counseling, to do it. So if I had to guess, I would say 30 to 40, 30 probably actually follow through and start doing it. But I don't know. You know we'll see. We'll see when I publish. Yeah, so like that's small, that's that's not.

Philip Pape: 45:24

Yeah, not enough people are doing it yeah, yeah, no, I bring it up cause it's, it's always on my mind. I wish more people would, and that's I know, all of our mission to do that, and specifically with the, the weight loss drugs. You know, you hear I'll call it misinformation due to a lack of understanding. Like, oh, you lose weight so quickly and you lose all this muscle mass when you look at it, it's, it's probably because your rate of loss tends to be faster on these. Yeah, thus you're hitting into that severe calorie deficit that causes muscle loss. It just like if you did it naturally at that rate, and that's why I bring it up. But anyway, yeah, yeah. So that's why I want people to know about it and know that there's a lot of nuance there. Do you have time for like three real quick?

Philip Pape: 46:02

rapid fire social media questions.

Philip Pape: 46:06

Okay, I rarely do this, but I think it'd be fun. So the first one is what's the most controversial fitness influencer?

Dr. Spencer Nadolsky: 46:11

that's getting it right, at least one that you can think of, so a controversial influencer that's getting it right? Besides you, besides you I don't know if they're well, if they're getting it right. I don't know if they're controversial, but I, I would say I, I really like um uh, ben carpenter. He's my buddy, but he, he's, he's just on point, every single video that he does like he's just on point.

Philip Pape: 46:39

I like him okay yeah, I mean controversy could be like you're controversial in some ways.

Philip Pape: 46:43

You

Philip Pape: 46:44

know what I mean yeah, yeah, you cause.

Philip Pape: 46:46

You cause a lot of uh discussion. Yeah, yeah, that's true. Um, all right. The second one is name the one food labeled as unhealthy all the time by influencers, but it actually can be quite helpful oh yeah, I mean there's so many right the one the one that I'm seeing right now.

Dr. Spencer Nadolsky: 47:04

It's seed oils in general.

Dr. Spencer Nadolsky: 47:07

And I say that there's a lot of nuance there. But, like, when people say that they give a blanket, that seed oils are bad for you, it's like whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. What do you mean by that? Well, they cause inflammation. Well, no, the trials show they actually don't. So, like, what are you coming up with? So that's probably the one, and I'm not going to sit here and say they're amazing for you and they're going to help you do X, y, z, but you know, you gotta, you always gotta, compare it to something else. So, um, you know, seed oils I don't, I think it's to me, just for anybody listening I think it's the foods that come packaged with seed oils are the culprit. They're easily overeaten, hyper palatable, ultra processed, increasing excess calories, causing adiposity, excess fat deposition. That's the issue. I'd say the seed oils are. What a red herring is is the term. Yeah, it's like we're, you're focused on this, you're, you're hyper focused on one little's, it's, it's everything else that comes in. Anyway, that's what I would say.

Philip Pape: 48:10

No, that's good, I could have guessed that. I could have guessed that, um, yeah, cause one of my friends, his name is Dustin Lambert. He's a nutrition coach that loves to look at the research and, um, we, you know, or like you said, they're found in processed foods. Same thing with red meat and others, where you have to take away the confounders and the correlations going on, exactly. Um, all right, Last rapid fire. What's more dangerous? Uh, steroid using natty influencers or doctors pushing fad diets?

Dr. Spencer Nadolsky: 48:39

That's great, uh, okay. So the doctors pushing fad diets or natty uh steroid users, and what are they promoting?

Philip Pape: 48:49

steroid using natty influencers. Yeah, this is this kind of a silly one, to be honest um, yeah, I, you know it.

Dr. Spencer Nadolsky: 48:57

It yeah so silly. So I'm just I'm thinking of examples, because there are I don't even I don't, you know some of these people. You don't, I don't know if they're using steroids and they claim they're natty, but some of them might be giving out good information despite not being natty, whereas some of these doctors are are extremely dangerous.

Philip Pape: 49:17

Dangerous Okay.

Dr. Spencer Nadolsky: 49:19

So I'm going to go. What was? What was better or worse? I'm going to say the doctors I'm going to say that the doctor doing the fad diets that's what I would say they're the dangerous ones.

Philip Pape: 49:27

Cool, cool, cool. All right, All right. Last question this is not a rapid fire. It's just what I ask all guests. Is there a question that you wish I'd asked and, if so, what's your answer?

Dr. Spencer Nadolsky: 49:38

No, this has been a great discussion. I just, you know, I think if we all step back, you know, we, we want everybody to be healthier. We want people to lift weights. We want people to eat healthier. There are different ways to skin a cat on and to get there.

Dr. Spencer Nadolsky: 49:56

Uh, I think doctors are, overall, good and want patients to be healthy. You know, we talked about not enough doctors lift and I think that they're wrong, but I still think that they have your best interest. So, uh, I don't want people coming around. Oh, this guy is trash and doctor. I, I like doctor. Doctors are good in general. There's some bad apples, the the fad diet doctors, as mentioned, and some of them, some of these people, I, I swear they're just doing it for fame and and clout on the internet. It's really, really weird and too bad. Um, but for the most part, most doctors out there, just they want people to be good, uh, so I wouldn't fault them for not promoting lifting weights, um, but I would hope that the new crowd, the new wave, the new generation of doctors, understands it. I think so. I think we're seeing that and part of that social media.

Philip Pape: 50:51

So, yeah, there you go. Yeah, I'm seeing it too. That's good. It's a positive message, and if you're listening and you're, you know, taking control of your own health, maybe you're going to inspire doctors to do that. And I've heard stories of that, where the doctors themselves get more educated by patients who are very much into this stuff, from including chiropractors and non-doctors as well Just like, oh, what are you doing A lot more yoga? No, I'm actually lifting weights. Ah, interesting. Yeah, that's cool. Good stuff, good stuff. All right, where do you want folks to find you, dr Spencer?

Dr. Spencer Nadolsky: 51:16

I mean, uh, instagram and threads. I I hate saying X cause, like I don't know, I don't even. I call it Twitter still, but Instagram at Dr, dr Nadolsky, dr N-A-D-O-L-S-K-Y, you can. You can listen to Docs who Lift podcast. I have a podcast with my brother who's an endocrinologist, who's lifts a lot of weights as well.

Philip Pape: 51:40

Yeah, that's all right, All right man, I'll throw those in the show notes. I really appreciate you doing this. For me and the listener it was fun thanks for having me on.

My Experiment with Peptides (BPC-157) for Shoulder Recovery (Confounding Variables) | Ep 255

Follow Nutrition Science Daily, our new 5-minute weekday morning podcast delivering the latest in nutrition, fat loss, and health science... plus simple tips to help you optimize your diet, build muscle, and improve your health—all before your high-protein breakfast!

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If you've experimented with supplements or recovery protocols and struggled to determine what's actually working versus what's just wishful thinking...

Learn how the engineering concept of Confounding Variables reveals why most self-experiments fail to give clear answers – and how to design better ones.

Using my real experience with BPC-157 for shoulder recovery as a case study, discover why changing multiple factors at once creates a "messy dataset" that can mask or amplify results.

Whether you're evaluating a supplement, modifying your training, or testing any health intervention, understanding this framework will transform how you approach self-experimentation.

Main Takeaways:

• Why controlling variables matters for supplement evaluation

• How diet changes can mask or amplify recovery results

• The hidden benefit of "messy" real-world experiments

• A systematic approach to learning from imperfect data

Episodes Mentioned:

• Testosterone, Hormone Therapy, and Peptides for Health and Longevity with Dr. Rand McClain

• Peptides, Hormone Therapy, Medical Aesthetics, and Personalized Wellness with Kristin Gemme

→ Follow Nutrition Science Daily, our new 5-minute weekday morning podcast!

The Truth About My Experiment with BPC-157 Peptides

If you’ve ever tried a supplement or recovery protocol and struggled to figure out if it was actually working, you’re not alone. In this blog post, I’m breaking down my personal experiment with BPC-157, a synthetic peptide often touted for its potential to accelerate healing in muscles, tendons, and ligaments. More importantly, I’ll reveal the lessons I learned about confounding variables—those pesky factors that make it almost impossible to pinpoint what’s driving your results.

Whether you're testing a new supplement, tweaking your nutrition, or experimenting with training, understanding these variables is the key to making better decisions for your health and fitness.

What is BPC-157?

BPC-157 is a synthetic peptide derived from a naturally occurring protein in gastric juices. Research suggests it may accelerate tissue repair by promoting blood vessel formation and collagen production, while also reducing inflammation and oxidative stress.

Most of the evidence comes from animal studies, and while anecdotal reports among humans are promising, rigorous human trials are limited. This leaves plenty of room for experimentation—but also a lot of room for error.

My BPC-157 Protocol

After recovering from rotator cuff surgery in 2023, I started experiencing persistent inflammation in my left shoulder. Cortisone shots and progressive rehab helped me regain strength and mobility, but I wanted to optimize recovery further. Enter BPC-157.

Here’s the protocol I followed:

• Dosage: 500 micrograms per day (five days a week for six weeks).

• Administration: Injected subcutaneously into fatty tissue near the triceps.

• Goal: Assess improvements in shoulder pain, mobility, and strength while tracking progress systematically.

The Problem with Confounding Variables

Here’s where things got tricky. At the same time I began the BPC-157 protocol, I made other significant changes:

1. Nutrition: Transitioned from a fat loss phase to a bulking phase.

2. Training: Shifted from a bodybuilding-style program to a more strength-focused program.

These changes introduced multiple variables into the equation. Was my shoulder feeling better because of the peptides, the increased caloric intake, or the adjusted training style? Maybe all of the above?

This is what scientists call a multivariate problem. Multiple changes interacting with each other make it nearly impossible to isolate a single cause.

Lessons from My Experiment

If you’re experimenting with protocols or supplements, here are a few takeaways to help you avoid messy data:

1. Document Everything

Track as many variables as possible, even those that seem unrelated. Sleep, stress, diet, training volume, and recovery tools all interact with each other and can skew results.

2. Start with a Baseline

Before introducing any new protocol, establish a baseline for your nutrition, training, and recovery habits. The fewer changes you make simultaneously, the clearer your data will be.

3. Compare to Past Experiences

Reflect on similar situations. For example, how did recovery progress during a previous bulk or training phase without the supplement in question?

4. Acknowledge Real-World Complexity

Perfect control is impossible in a real-life setting. Instead of striving for clean data, focus on building an environment that supports your goals holistically.

Did BPC-157 Work for Me?

Here’s the truth: I’m not 100% sure.

Yes, my shoulder feels stronger, less painful, and more mobile. But I also introduced better nutrition, smarter training, and improved recovery habits at the same time. These confounding variables make it difficult to credit the peptide exclusively.

Still, the experience was valuable. It reinforced the importance of controlling variables and tracking progress carefully. Next time, I plan to test BPC-157 on my hip, where other recovery efforts have been stable over the years.

The Takeaway

Recovery and healing don’t happen in isolation. Our bodies are influenced by the totality of our environment—nutrition, training, stress, and beyond. While confounding variables complicate experiments, they also reflect the reality of human life.

Rather than chasing perfection, focus on creating an environment conducive to your goals. Measure what you can, tweak as needed, and embrace the messiness of real life.

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Transcript

Philip Pape: 0:01

If you're curious about BPC-157 or any other peptides or supplements for injury recovery and you want the truth about what I learned using it for my shoulder, but, more importantly, if you've ever tried self-experimentation and struggled to figure out whether something is actually working or not, this episode is for you. I'm breaking down my real experiment using BPC-157 peptides for my shoulder what went right, what went wrong and the crucial lesson about confounding variables that will change how you evaluate any protocol or supplement. Welcome to Wits and Weights, the show that blends evidence and engineering to help you build smart, efficient systems to achieve your dream physique. I'm your host, philip Pape, and today I'm talking about my personal experience with BPC-157. This is a peptide, and I did this for my left shoulder, where I had rotator cuff surgery last year, and I'm going to go through that process, but with an important twist. Instead of just telling you whether it worked or not, we're going to use this as a case study in confounding variables, those pesky factors that make it nearly impossible to determine what's actually causing our results. It nearly impossible to determine what's actually causing our results Because when I tried BPC-157, I made some classic mistakes that created a messy data set. Understanding these mistakes will help you avoid them in your own experiments, whether with supplements, training protocols or changes to your nutrition.

Philip Pape: 1:40

And I do want to say that none of what I share today constitutes any sort of advice, medical or otherwise, for you. It is simply for educational purposes. And before we get into it, I do want to mention something a little bit new that I haven't talked about much lately, and that is a brand new podcast we launched called Nutrition Science Daily. This is a daily weekday morning five-minute podcast. I'm trying to get every single episode under five minutes. Some come in at five and a half or six, and this is an examination of a recent study, finding news article or happening in the world of nutrition, how to analyze it and how to apply it to your life in a nuanced, evidence-based way. So that's called Nutrition Science Daily, links in the show notes. I highly encourage you to check it out. If you like it, follow it and share, but just give it a shot and see if you like it.

Philip Pape: 2:28

Let's talk about my experiment with peptides, and I want to first explain what the heck these are. What is BPC-157? Because I've talked about peptides a couple times on the show, once long ago with Dr Rand M, another time with Christian Gem. I may have talked about it a few other times and you can go check those out, but peptides are well. Bpc-157, specifically, is a synthetic peptide which is derived from a naturally occurring protein found in gastric juices. Research shows it can accelerate healing in muscles, tendons and ligaments by promoting blood vessel formation and collagen production. Studies, mostly in animals so that is a big caveat primarily in animals demonstrate it may have the potential to reduce inflammation and oxidative stress, particularly in tissue repair, which would then help with accelerating that tissue repair.

Philip Pape: 3:22

And the reason I decided to try these out is, first of all, I'm working with a qualified professional. Her name is Kristin Gemme here in Avon. She was on the show and she helped guide me through this process. I had rotator cuff surgery in 2023. So this was last year, as I'm recording this episode and I recovered through that pretty nicely over about six to 12 months, got back into lifting, things started to feel well and then I got some bursitis, some really strong painful inflammation that just would not go away. I worked through various protocols to get that down naturally and then I decided to have a cortisone shot to just massively reduce the inflammation. It worked wonders to allow me to slowly build back in, reintroduce load, get back to shoulder pressing all the things that I love to do in the gym in a very reasonable, appropriate way. And now I'm training pretty hard and it's feeling good.

Philip Pape: 4:13

However, throughout that process I thought is there anything else I can do to support this? And I had heard about peptides several times. I talked to a former coach of mine who said you know, I've used it. This was him talking. I've used it for my shoulder, others have used it for their knees, for their hips, used it after surgery, and there's all these anecdotal stories of people having faster recovery. And I looked into it I talked to Kristen and I talked to some other professionals. It seems to be the very not just efficacious for a lot of people, but safe as well, and so I considered taking it because it is a fairly natural product, although it is in its infancy with regards to the research.

Philip Pape: 4:52

And the protocol is very simple. You inject I think it's 500 micrograms Don't quote me, I don't have my notes here Uh, basically daily. For me, I did it five out of seven days for six weeks, so it's 30 doses. With a very tiny syringe, you put it into fatty tissue. Um, I did it five out of seven days for six weeks, so it's 30 doses. With a very tiny syringe you put it into fatty tissue, I did it into the fat near my triceps and so you hardly feel it. You probably need someone to help with that. And the recommendation was alternate my shoulders for each dose. If you were to put it in your hip or buttocks or stomach or wherever again, you could do it in the same spot every day. You can alternate. It's systemic, but it also is supposed to be local as well. And that's it. And the idea there was that I would track how I feel, how I perform, my mobility, my range of motion as I went forward. And I did but hold that thought, because now we're going to talk about the sticky situation you can get yourself in if you don't do it right.

Philip Pape: 5:48

Let's talk about controlled versus confounding variables. Now, this is a fundamental concept when you're designing any experiment, and what we do here on Wits and Weights and in my coaching practice, is we're always experimenting on ourselves. We start from a known base of knowledge. We start from best practices and our best guess. Like, we know how much protein we should be eating, but we don't know if it should be a little bit higher, a little lower for you. We know you should be training in a certain way generally, but we don't know if you need more or less volume, more or less intensity and more or fewer days per week. So we figure those out later on, but we start with a baseline and we identify these variables.

Philip Pape: 6:24

A controlled variable is something that we intentionally keep constant or we manipulate in a very specific way to understand its effects. So think about scientific studies where researchers control factors like diet, exercise and sleep and they want to isolate the impact of a supplement. So they are controlling these things. They are either manipulating them to keep them steady or they are not touching them, if you will, if they're expected to remain stable. So those are control variables.

Philip Pape: 6:54

Confounding variables are the wild cards. These are the factors that can influence our results but are not part of what we're trying to test, and they can mask or they can amplify the true effect of our intervention. And when it comes to health fitness, common confounding variables are all over the place, because we're human beings, we live messy lives, our stress levels change, our sleep quality changes, we have seasonal variations in our activity. We have life events that come along that affect everything recovery, everything else. We are constantly changing our supplements and medications, we're constantly modifying our training program and our intensity, and the list goes on and on. And the challenge of biological systems, especially our bodies, is that true control, variables, or I should say variable control is nearly impossible. We just have to acknowledge that Everything interacts with everything else. Hormones affect sleep, which affects recovery, which affects performance, which affects hormones. You get the idea. There's sometimes chicken and egg effects that go both directions.

Philip Pape: 7:58

So when I apply this specifically to my situation, the timeline was such that, as I was starting the BPC-157 protocol, I just happened to be changing a few other very big variables at the same time. Now, those were more under my control, I will admit, and this is where I made the mistake. There are lots of things that happen to us, but there are things that we control, such as our diet. Well, at the time I was starting this, I also decided to come out of my fat loss phase into maintenance and then into a bulking phase. Now, part of that was intentional, so that I could get more out of the recovery, knowing that I was taking peptides, but it still introduced an extra major change to a variable that was no longer in control, although it became controlled in a new sense, in that now I was in a consistent bulk, but it was a change. Also, I switched from a bodybuilding style program to a more strength building style program, knowing again that I would be in a recovery phase, that I would also have more food coming in, and I'm like, well, heck, yeah, now I want to improve my strength base and go after PRs again. I've been wanting to do that ever since before my surgery. So now I'm in a more volume heavy training program at the same time, and all these things are changing while I'm taking the protocol. So now the question is how the heck do I know that if my shoulder starts feeling better or has better mobility, it's because of the peptides? And how do I avoid the placebo effect here as well, where I start saying, oh, I'm feeling better, it's because of the peptides, because I want them to be.

Philip Pape: 9:31

And so when we modify several factors at once like this, we create what scientists call a multivariate problem. Right, each change introduces its own effects and potentially interacts with other changes in ways that we just cannot predict. For example, in my case, increasing calories improves recovery and provides more resources for tissue repair. I wanted that to support the peptides, but it also means I don't know if it's the peptides that's really doing the job. Modifying my training reduces stress on injured areas, even though I might be training more intensely and building strength. So it's like, eh, again, am I hitting myself harder and now the peptides are helping me feel better to counteract that, or I'm actually supporting that by reducing stress because I am getting stronger? You see what I mean. Peptides themselves, of course, might accelerate the healing processes. That's really the ultimate thing I'm trying to figure out. Better nutrition might optimize hormones that affect all of this, and then my training volume could affect my recovery time. Now, to be honest, I increased my volume, so I technically have less potential recovery, but that's a whole separate topic because of the interaction between stress and fatigue and all that.

Philip Pape: 10:45

So this is where understanding confounding variables becomes absolutely critical. So you don't make assumptions and don't make anecdotal claims, because when multiple factors change simultaneously, we have to have a more systematic approach, and we're all about systems, we're all about analysis and there are still ways that you can kind of tease out the data. So the first thing is to document everything you care about, even things that you might not think you should care about and seem unrelated but could be affected. So you want to care about those as well, all right. So documenting everything, looking for patterns in the timing between changes and improvements. So, for example, if you made a change and then something improved, look at everything that changed and were they all overlapping, in which case it's kind of hard to figure out what it is, or is there a distinct association, time-wise, between something changing and something improving?

Philip Pape: 11:39

Another thing is to compare to similar situations in the past. So, for my example, I've bulked in the past and I've done strength programs in the past and I know how my shoulder has felt. So if my shoulder actually feels a lot better this time under those same conditions, that could be a clue that, oh yes, it might be the peptides, and then consider the biological mechanisms going on and how everything might interact again. So you don't make any assumptions. So what did I actually observe? You're like, okay, get to the point. What did you feel? Well, I'm not really sure. I will say that my shoulder is feeling stronger, it hurts less and it cracks less, like there was a lot of cracking going on, but I had also had the cortisone shot. I had recovered from that. I had been training and stretching, working on mobility all of that as well. So is it the peptides? I've been able to progress my bench press and my overhead press, which is phenomenal. I really missed doing those. But at the same time, I'm using smarter approaches and tools, like I use a slingshot for my standard bench, I use spotto presses which stop an inch above my chest, I support my overhead pressing, with days where I do seated overhead pressing, all of which can be supporting and improving the strength of my shoulder, independent of the peptides. And so at the end of the day, you're going to get a disappointing answer, but I'm not really sure Now.

Philip Pape: 13:04

I've had, I've heard of people who went through recovery from surgery, took the peptides and the recovery was super fast. The question is, would it have been slower or faster without them? Like, would it have been slower without them or were they motivated Cause they're on the peptides, thinking this is going to recover faster and they push themselves more in a good way? Right? We just? It's just so hard to say because of this idea of confounding variables. So if I did this next time, and I am going to do this next time, but I'm going to do it for my hip. So I've had a torn labrum in my right hip for quite a few years.

Philip Pape: 13:35

Don't know what caused it. It causes a little bit of stiffness. Sometimes in the morning it causes some clicking and it's just a little bit annoying. I do find that if I squat regularly and if I walk regularly, the pain goes away, which is another signal to always be moving and using your body. It tends to be better for your health and your joints than not doing that. When I sit around a lot, that's when it hurts. But I'm going to use peptides there because that part of my body seems to change not a lick. No matter what I do Like, no matter what I'm eating, no matter what I'm sleeping, no matter what, it's been super, super stable, no matter what Like, all these other things can change and my hip will still be a little bit problematic.

Philip Pape: 14:15

So my reasoning, of course, is if I take the peptides and all these other things in my life are more or less as they've been and all of a sudden that starts to improve, ah, that might be an indicator that these things work. And if everything stays the same, I'll be like, okay, I tried the peptides and, honestly, for me they didn't have a big deal, like I'm getting much more out of just hitting the gym hard, working out, eating right, all those fun things A lot of what I tell my clients to do. I say, look, don't focus so much on these hacks, these supplements, these one percenters. Just focus on the big things and then, once you get there, you can focus on optimization and experimentation with the little things. So the fascinating thing about all of this, about this confounding variable thing, is, while they make clean data pretty much impossible, as a human, they actually mirror real life accurately.

Philip Pape: 15:05

Right, because in the real world, healing and recovery don't happen in isolation. Right, our bodies respond to the totality of our environment, not just single interventions. So we need to care about all of it and we need to just not make excuses and also not rely on one solution or another and just go after it. I, for one, am rather entertained by the messiness of life, and I talk often about how that messiness is what allows us to create resilience around it knowing that it's messy, like knowing that we can't be perfect and knowing that things are going to happen all the it, knowing that it's messy, like knowing that we can't be perfect and knowing that things are gonna happen all the time. It's liberating. It allows you to then set up your system, to assume that that's the case and to set up your environment rather than any single intervention.

Philip Pape: 15:51

And don't get hung up and don't overthink is this the best training program? Is this the best diet? Just think about your environment as a whole and start to nudge things in the direction you think. Work for you, Track it, measure it, see how you feel, see how you perform, and you'll get there. And if we understand this, then we understand self-experimentation. And now, instead of seeking perfect isolation, we focus on creating the environment conducive to our goals, while we still carefully document the things that change. We document our results, we track, we measure, of course, and carefully document the things that change. We document our results, we track, we measure, of course, and overall, we have a more nuanced approach. It's not going to give you clear-cut answers it never will but it's going to lead to better real-world outcomes and that's what matters.

Philip Pape: 16:27

All right, if you want to learn more about the little corners and the nooks and crannies of nutrition science, follow my new podcast, nutrition Science Daily. It's wherever you get your podcasts. Check it out. It's five minutes every weekday morning by 6 am Eastern. It's only in the weekdays right now so you can catch up on the weekends if you miss a few during the week and you might love some. You might not Check it out. Follow and submit a five-star rating and review if you enjoy it, or reach out to me on Instagram at witsandweights five-star rating and review if you enjoy it, or reach out to me on Instagram at witsandweights. And until next time, keep using those wits, keep lifting those weights and remember sometimes the best data comes from understanding why your experiment was not perfect. I'll talk to you next time here on the Wits and Weights Podcast.

10 Intermittent Fasting Myths That Need to Die | Ep 254

Download my free Nutrition for Body Composition guide to setup your nutrition for fat loss without intermittent fasting. Discover how to master your macros, optimize your workout nutrition, and develop sustainable habits.

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Philip (@witsandweights) dives into the top 10 myths surrounding intermittent fasting (IF) that continue to dominate the fitness world. From the claims of fat-burning magic to boosting metabolism and enhancing cognitive function, Philip reveals what the science actually says.

This isn’t about bashing IF—it is about actionable advice to help you decide if fasting aligns with your goals or if there’s a better way to achieve sustainable progress. Philip also shares his personal experience with fasting and why he no longer follows rigid eating patterns.

Today, you’ll learn all about:

4:35 Myth #1
5:33 Myth #2
7:25 Myth #3
8:35 Myth #4
10:00 Myth #5
11:10 Myth #6
12:30 Myth #7
15:10 Myth #8
16:30 Myth #9
17:39 Myth #10
19:10 BONUS MYTH
24:20 Outro

Episode resources:

• Download my free Nutrition for Body Composition guide

10 Intermittent Fasting Myths Exposed and What Actually Drives Results

Intermittent fasting (IF) has been touted as the holy grail for fat loss, metabolic health, and longevity. But is it really the secret weapon it’s made out to be? While some people thrive on it, the hype around fasting often overshadows the facts. In this post, we’ll unpack the top 10 myths about intermittent fasting, explore the science behind these claims, and reveal what truly matters for achieving your fitness goals. Spoiler alert: It’s not about rigid eating windows.

Myth 1 – Fasting Makes You Burn More Fat

Yes, fasting shifts your body to burn more fat for fuel during your fasting window. However, fat loss over time depends on creating a calorie deficit—not when you eat. Studies show that when calories are matched, fasting offers no additional fat loss benefit compared to regular meal patterns. The key is consistency and awareness of total caloric intake.

Myth 2 – Fasting Boosts Your Metabolism

Short-term fasting might slightly increase metabolic rate due to stress hormones like adrenaline, but prolonged fasting can lower it. Your body adapts by conserving energy, a survival mechanism that kicks in when food is scarce. A sustainable calorie deficit and consistent eating patterns are better for maintaining your metabolism.

Myth 3 – Fasting Improves Insulin Sensitivity

The truth? Insulin sensitivity is more about body composition, activity levels, and overall diet quality. Building muscle, staying active, and eating enough protein are far more effective than fasting alone. The timing of meals has little to no added benefit when it comes to improving insulin function.

Myth 4 – Fasting Optimizes Hormonal Health

Fasting often disrupts hormonal balance rather than optimizing it, especially for women. Clients who’ve tried aggressive fasting sometimes experience irregular menstrual cycles or heightened stress. The real key to hormonal health? Adequate nutrition, good sleep, and stress management.

Myth 5 – Fasting Enhances Autophagy

Autophagy, your body’s cellular cleanup process, does increase during fasting—but so does exercise, sleep, and calorie restriction. Human studies don’t definitively prove fasting provides unique benefits for autophagy beyond these other practices.

Myth 6 – Fasting Is the Key to Longevity

Claims about fasting and longevity are based on animal studies or extreme calorie restriction protocols. The real drivers of longevity—reducing inflammation and improving metabolic health—can be achieved through balanced nutrition, exercise, and other sustainable lifestyle habits.

Myth 7 – You Can Eat Whatever You Want During the Feeding Window

This myth might be the most damaging. Overeating during your feeding window can erase any calorie deficit created during fasting. Total calories and food quality matter whether you’re fasting or not.

Myth 8 – Fasting Detoxes Your Body

Your liver and kidneys already do an excellent job detoxing your body. Fasting doesn’t enhance this process. For better "natural detox," focus on hydration, fiber, and a nutrient-rich diet.

Myth 9 – Fasting Improves Cognitive Function

Some people report mental clarity while fasting, but it’s often a temporary effect of stress hormones. Most people perform cognitively better with regular meals and stable blood sugar levels.

Myth 10 – Fasting Works for Everyone

This one-size-fits-all myth ignores individual differences. Fasting isn’t ideal for everyone, especially those with high physical demands, chronic stress, or a history of disordered eating. The best approach is one that fits your lifestyle and supports long-term consistency.

When Fasting Might Work for You

While fasting isn’t necessary for results, it can be a practical option for those who naturally prefer fewer meals or specific eating windows due to their schedules. However, it should never feel like an obligation or a magic bullet for fat loss.

What Actually Drives Results

1. Sustainable Calorie Deficits – Tracking and awareness, balanced meals, and a focus on protein and whole foods.

2. Meal Timing for Training Performance – Prioritize pre- and post-workout nutrition for energy and recovery.

3. Sleep and Stress Management – These are often overlooked but critical to achieving your goals.

4. Consistency – Master the basics before adding unnecessary complexity like fasting.

Final Thoughts

Fasting isn’t inherently “bad,” but it’s not the magic solution it’s often made out to be. Most of my clients achieve amazing results without ever worrying about fasting protocols. Instead, they focus on sustainable habits that align with their goals and lifestyles. If you’re unsure where to start, download my free Nutrition 101 for Body Composition Guide to take control of your nutrition without restrictive rules.

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Transcript

Philip Pape: 0:01

Let's talk about intermittent fasting. You've probably tried restricting your eating window because someone told you it would burn fat, boost your metabolism, clean up your cells through autophagy. But instead of getting these amazing benefits, you're maybe gaining weight during your feeding window. You're feeling tired and cranky. You're wondering if there's something wrong with you, or is there a different way I can do this? Today, we're uncovering 10 myths about intermittent fasting that keep getting repeated by influencers and even some respected experts. You'll learn why many of these claims completely misrepresent the research, and I'll show you what actually drives results, because it's not about when you eat. It's about what you do consistently Now, whether you're fasting right now or thinking about starting. You'll discover why many of these so-called benefits might be holding you back from better results and how to decide if IF actually makes sense for your lifestyle.

Philip Pape: 0:58

Welcome to Wits and Weights, the podcast that blends evidence and engineering to help you build smart, efficient systems to achieve your dream physique. I'm your host, philip Pape, and today we are examining the truth about intermittent fasting claims that just won't go away Now. I rarely talk about IF on the show, but I have personal experience with it and it is still a hot topic. And let me be clear. This is not about bashing intermittent fasting. Some people genuinely thrive on it and they can, and I'll tell you about my own experience in a bit. But most people don't need it for results and you shouldn't feel pressured to follow arbitrary eating windows if they don't work for you. Now, before we dive in, if you want to take control of your nutrition without restrictive rules around meal timing, download my free Nutrition 101 for Body Composition Guide, where you'll learn how to master macros, calories, workout nutrition and develop a sustainable approach that still, of course, gets you results. Click the link in the show notes or go to witsandweightscom slash free to get your copy of the Body composition nutrition guide.

Philip Pape: 2:06

So, before we get into the myths, let me just quickly share my own experience with intermittent fasting, which was all the rage about 10 years ago, overlapping with CrossFit and paleo and the lean gains protocol, following this very strict, rigid approach, and the idea was a 16 to 8 fasting pattern. So I would have dinner around 5 or 6 pm and then not eat again till let's see let me do the math around 11, something like 10, 11 am. So basically, eight-hour fasting window, 16-hour eight-hour feeding window, 16-hour fasting window. So you would basically not have breakfast and then you would have a late lunch or an early dinner to make it work, and I followed this because I thought it would optimize fat burning. I didn't even worry too much about the longevity stuff, I was just trying to lose weight. I would train fasted and I did this for years and I thought, okay, I'm able to do the things I'm trying to do, so it's working right. But I still wasn't able to control my body composition or my weight. My body effectively got used to it and so I would end up eating more than I intended to in the feeding window. My performance in the gym was inconsistent because I was training fasted, even though I was also using at the time, bcaas branched-chain amino acids and later on EAAs CAAs branched chain amino acids and later on EAAs. My recovery wasn't great. I wasn't seeing better results than in another way of eating, which I only discovered later, once I stopped intermittent fasting.

Philip Pape: 3:34

And really my I guess, number one advice from this whole podcast, before we get into myths, is experimenting with if you're going to do fasting, track what you're doing and track the results and how you feel, and then do it without the fasting and see what changes. That's really the best way to tell what's going to happen. Now you may say, well, I don't really want to do that, because I think intermittent fasting is better for longevity or for burning fat or whatever. That is what we're going to address today. All right, we're going to talk about when it could be helpful, but then all the reasons it's not, so that you don't feel pressured to do it. And I think that's very liberating. It's very liberating because I still hear people who have struggled with, you know, having excess body fat, trying to lose weight, and they're like it's finally working because I started fasting. Well, we're going to get into why that is and the lens on that is you're telling the truth. Obviously, I'm not gaslighting. You are getting some change. You are losing weight, but is it because of the reasons you think? And are you putting something else at risk and preventing results from something else? So we're going to get to that. Let's just jump right in. Enough set up here Myth number one that fasting makes you burn more fat.

Philip Pape: 4:46

Now you can change the wording of this and say fasting makes you lose more weight, more fat. I'm just going to lump it all together, but the fat part, specifically is the claim that fasting puts you into a fat burning mode, making weight loss easier and more efficient. Now, yes, your body does shift to using more fat for fuel when you're not eating, but this misses the point because fat loss itself depends on being in a calorie deficit over time. If you're eating the same number of calories, studies show and physics show no difference in fat loss between intermittent fasting and regular meal patterns period. Any short-term increase in fat burning during the fasting window guess what? It gets canceled out by what happens in your feeding window. So that's myth number one it offers absolutely no benefit. I know this because my very approach with clients, which is focused on a sustainable way of losing fat efficiently and successfully, doesn't include intermittent fasting, and very few of my clients ever need it or want to do it, except for practical purposes and I'll address that a little bit later when I talk about who it might be right for. But it has zero benefit in burning more fat Zero.

Philip Pape: 6:01

Myth number two that fasting boosts your metabolism. Now, there's a kernel of truth here in that short-term fasting can temporarily increase metabolic rate through stress hormones, but long-term shows that extended fasting lowers your metabolism as your body conserves energy, and this is basic evolution. Your body doesn't know when the next meal is coming, so it adapts by becoming more efficient with its energy use. This is the same principle of unpredictability, right. The same reason. I tell people to eat consistently day to day, to sleep consistently day to day, to train consistently, do things in a consistent way, and your body then doesn't try to conserve energy because it doesn't know when this thing is coming next. It doesn't know when you're to conserve energy because it doesn't know when this thing is coming next. It doesn't know when you're getting to sleep, it doesn't know when you're getting food. Now, on the other hand, you might say well, what if I'm intermittent fasting very consistently? In that case, I think it's fine. And again, it doesn't boost your metabolism, it doesn't drop it either. My point is it just doesn't offer any benefit over any other feeding window, right. And the same thing happens when we are on a very low-calorie diet, right. In other words, your body conserves, you have metabolic adaptation, your metabolism drops, and that's why we focus on a more moderate approach to our calorie deficits and we use refeeds and diet breaks when appropriate to make it sustainable so that you can stick with it. So fasting definitely does not boost your metabolism.

Philip Pape: 7:27

We're going to move on to myth number three, which is that fasting improves insulin sensitivity Very important one here. This is now we get into the health claims. Here's the thing about insulin sensitivity it is primarily driven by body composition, activity level and overall diet quality. Body composition, as in more muscle, less fat. Right, we talk about muscle being a sink for glucose. The more muscle you have, the more you train, the more insulin sensitive you are. Your activity level just moving, controlling that blood sugar being active, and then your diet quality itself. Now, while short breaks between meals can help with insulin function in terms of you're reducing the number of spikes of blood sugar which, by the way, are not a big deal if you're active, in fact, we want them when we're lifting weights Studies that compare fasting to regular meal patterns no difference when calories and weight loss are matched in terms of insulin sensitivity. So what does improve insulin sensitivity? I alluded to it is building muscle through resistance training, staying active throughout the day, eating enough protein and maintaining a healthy body fat level. All right.

Philip Pape: 8:38

Myth number four that fasting is better for hormonal health. Oh, this one really irks me because I hear it especially in the over 40 and the peri-post-menopause crowd. Some podcasts, even podcasts that I respect, talk about fasting as being some panacea for women and for hormonal health, and the claim is that the fasting itself optimizes hormones like insulin, growth hormone and cortisol stress hormone, for better fat burning and better retention of muscle. And again, while fasting temporarily affects these hormones, the changes aren't necessarily even beneficial, because fasting can increase your stress hormones. They can disrupt your reproductive hormones, particularly in women. I've had female clients come to me after their cycles became irregular from aggressive fasting. So you really got to watch out. You're not doing more harm than good. The research shows that hormonal health is derived from consistent nutrition, adequate energy, not being underfed. A very key point we have harp on here is not always being dieting, but actually eating enough food, good sleep and stress management rather than manipulating meal timing. So again, with every one of these myths, I want you to be clear that the myth is actually a myth and there actually could be evidence showing the opposite in some cases. But again, I'm not going to go to the extreme on that side either.

Philip Pape: 10:04

Myth number five that fasting induces superior autophagy. So autophagy is the cleaning out of your cells. This claim is fascinating because it is based almost entirely on animal research and also on extreme fasting protocols that last at least 24 or more hours. So autophagy is your body's cellular cleanup process. It does increase when you're fasting, but it also happens during exercise, during sleep and during any form of calorie restriction. And we don't actually know if fasting enhances autophagy more than these other methods in humans. We just don't have evidence that supports that right. If, again, you want to support cellular health, guess what I'm going to say Focus on regular exercise, movement, training, quality sleep, good nutrition, rather than fasting. And, by the way, again, I'm not trying to bash on fasting. Fasting is just a tool. What I'm trying to show is that the claims people make about fasting being superior for these things are what are false giving you more options, which is great.

Philip Pape: 11:10

Myth number six that fasting is the key to longevity. And this one comes from studies where severe calorie restriction extended lifespan in various species. Have you heard about this? Right? You've heard about calorie restriction being somehow helpful for longevity, but the human evidence is much less clear, if existent at all, because any longevity benefits for humans likely come from improved health markers like reduced inflammation, better metabolic health things that you can achieve through lifestyle, through lots of other approaches that have nothing to do with fasting.

Philip Pape: 11:45

I've had people who come to me, actually not because they want to build muscle or lose fat, but because they're concerned with longevity. They're concerned with their high blood pressure or their high resting heart rate or their cholesterol, and they feel like they're compromising their health and they wonder should they be fasting, should they be doing so-called longevity protocols? And typically what's happening is they're either not eating enough they're not eating enough protein, fiber, nutrients, they're not moving enough, they're not training. There's all the lifestyle things they're just not doing. Yet Once we get those in place, we get to a balanced approach to their food, focused on whole foods, regular meals, very flexible approach, having nothing to do with, you know, restricting your feeding windows. Guess what happens? Health markers improve significantly. See it time and again and again it's a very liberating thought that you can do that and you don't need to fast.

Philip Pape: 12:33

Myth number seven is that you can eat whatever you want during the feeding window. Now, maybe not all of you buy into this myth and you understand that eating too much, whenever it is, can be a problem. I get it, but still I think it is a myth that's out there and it's probably the most damaging one, because it leads to overconsumption and poor food choices. Very much like a dreamer bulk right the idea that I'm going to just eat whatever I want, as much as I want to build muscle can lead to overconsumption and poor food choices, and I see it constantly.

Philip Pape: 13:07

People are fasting and initially they have some success because they lose some water weight, they cut their calories, they're not able to eat as much. Then what happens? Their body gets used to it. They start to overeat during their feeding window, and by overeat I simply mean they're consuming more calories than they intend or that they want for whatever their goal is, which usually is maintenance or fat loss, and so they're overeating. And this happened to me back in the day because I was fasting for years to the point where my body is like this is just how it is, so now you could eat more calories during that window, and then you almost feel like entitled to make up for the fasting period.

Philip Pape: 13:41

Or you feel like you're hungry, starving. Even if you get quote unquote used to fasting, you still may have higher hunger than you would have otherwise if you weren't doing it. And no matter what your fasting window is, you still have to consider total calories and food quality. It's still important. No matter what, the amount of calories in a day is still going to matter, and so I see people gaining weight on intermittent fasting. It happens all the time, right, even if they're perfectly adhering to the window, because they're cramming a day's worth of processed foods within eight hours. You know they think anything goes and their body adapts to it All right After the break. We're going to address one of the biggest intermittent fasting myths of all and I'm going to share a bonus myth related to your training performance and building muscle.

Jenny: 14:27

Hi, my name is Jenny and I just wanted to say a big thank you to Philip Pape of Wits and Weights for offering his free 50-minute nutritional assessment. During that time he gave me really good tools on how I can further my health and fitness goals. He asked really great questions and stayed true to his offer of no sales pitch. I have since applied these things and gotten really close to my health goals and my weight goals, and now I'm able to flip over and work on my strength and my muscle conditioning using a lot of the things he offers in his podcasts, and I just am very grateful for his positive inspiration and encouragement for all of our health. Thank you, philip.

Philip Pape: 15:13

Welcome back as we reveal the final three intermittent fasting myths that need to die, plus a bonus myth that will unlock even more progress with your body composition and physique. Myth number eight that fasting detoxes your body. Now I wasn't sure if I wanted to clue this in there, but I've actually seen more and more people make this claim and it's kind of related to the autophagy a little bit. It's this whole like cleaning you out thing. Your body's detoxification systems are already quite well-evolved and capable and robust your liver, your kidneys, your lymphatic system. They work continuously. Whether you're fasting or not, they're always working for you. They're amazing. Fasting does not enhance or accelerate this process at all. If you want to support natural detox, stay hydrated, eat plenty of fiber, get adequate protein, maintain a healthy lifestyle. Obviously don't smoke, don't drink to excess, because that'll put a strain on your detoxification system right, and those basic habits are going to do far more for you than any fasting protocol. And I don't know about you. I'd rather be lifting weights and eating what I want when I want, rather than having to fast and still get the result and still get the quote-unquote detox All right.

Philip Pape: 16:31

Myth number nine fasting is better for cognitive function. So some people swear by this. Oh, I fasted and I had this mental clarity. My brain was just firing on all cylinders. I didn't feel sluggish, lethargic, dah, dah, dah dah. You hear all of this and I've done that myself. Okay, I've used to fast once a week for a whole day, so I would go dinner to dinner, right, so a 24 hour period, and I would claim that I just felt so much clearer, so much mental clarity. The research actually shows mixed results and it shows a massive level of individual variation. So if you have what seems like a temporary boost in focus, it's probably because of your stress hormones, not an inherent benefit of fasting. A lot of people actually experience brain fog and or concentration when they're fasting, especially when they're having to then do demanding tasks, not just training fasted, but work. You work If you have a day job and you're now trying to work while you're hungry. And so, anecdotally, some people might have cognitive benefit, but most folks perform better cognitively with regular meals and stable blood sugar. Again back to the basics.

Philip Pape: 17:39

And then myth number 10, and again, this is maybe the biggest one I'm not going to say the most dangerous, but it's the one that just blanket statement on the internet that fasting can work for everyone, that it's a diet right. It's like here's keto, here's vegetarianism, here's carnivore, here's fasting, and it's going to work. You pick the one you want and it's going to work for everyone. And this myth insidiously ignores the massive individual differences that we all have. The whole reason I created this podcast is the reason I coach people to figure out their own bodies, their own metabolism, their own lifestyle, their own psychology.

Philip Pape: 18:13

It is so different from person to person that if you try to put yourself in a box it can be extremely problematic, especially for women. And again, men, women love you all. But unfortunately women get the brunt of the marketing on this stuff and the claims on this stuff. And women also have the bigger hormonal disruptions in late 30s into 40s and 50s. But fasting is also unsuitable for certain people. If you have a history of disordered eating, if you have very high physical demands, if you have chronic stress, it could make it worse. It just can Be careful. I'm okay if you want to experiment, but measure these things and see if one isn't superior to the other for you, for you.

Philip Pape: 18:55

I've seen far too many clients try to force fasting, and I mean before we work together. They tell me about their stories of fasting because they think that's the only resort they have left. Even maybe it'll be surprising to you is the impact of fasting on your training performance, and I am a proponent now that most people should not be training fasted and again, I use the word most, not every, because, just like all the other claims, or the very last one, that fasting's for everyone, fasted or fed, training may not be everyone. You may be in the very, very, very small percentage of people that, for whatever reason, perform better when you're fasted. It's extremely rare, though, and usually the reason they think they're performing better, faster than not, is because when they're fed, maybe they eat too much too close to their workout and they just don't like the digestive results or the feeling of it, or they feel sluggish, or they're eating the wrong things, or they're not eating carbs but they're only eating protein. There's a lot of reasons that you might think training fed doesn't work for you and we need to talk.

Philip Pape: 20:15

I want you to reach out to me, schedule a rapid nutrition assessment. Let's have a call and talk about your peri-workout nutrition. Peri meaning in and around. What are you eating before and after? When are you eating. What is the composition of macros? What is the food? Is it highly digestible? I will help you figure out if that's the problem, before you say I just need to train fasted and I'm going to start taking EAAs, which are pretty much a waste of money, since you could just eat protein, and because all these other myths are not true about fat burning and everything else autophagy you don't have to worry about those.

Philip Pape: 20:47

It really comes down to how do you get the most out of your workouts. Coming to the gym feeling ready to go energized, you don't feel like you have too much in your stomach. You go ahead and you slam the weights with control, with intensity and with focus, and you're able to get through a 60 or 90-minute training session with your energy intact, having gotten all the reps, and then you recover, and then you're not too sore the next day, and on and on. It all ties together and much of it comes down to not training fasted. And if you go from fasted training to fed training, you might find a step change in your lifting, in the weight, in the volume, in the intensity, in the energy, in the recovery, all of it, and so it's definitely worth trying out if you haven't done it or you've been training fasted for a long time.

Philip Pape: 21:33

And stop making the excuses. But well, I only have a half hour before I get to the gym. Well, guess what? Protein shakes and a banana, my favorite. Okay, half protein shakes and a banana, my favorite. Half an hour is plenty. Or you can guzzle on some highly branched cyclic dextrin just very simple, pure, easily digestible form of carbs, and get the energy in your body and see what it's like.

Philip Pape: 21:53

Stop making the excuses. There are some legitimate things like okay, I have to take thyroid medication and I'm trying to go to my home gym 10 minutes later. But again, even then can we work things out to make it work for you. Or, worst case, have a bigger carb, heavier dinner, not too late, but late enough that it's still in your system when you work out the next day. All right, so yeah, you might burn a little more fat during a fasted workout, but then you're going to burn less fat in the rest of the day and you're probably going to perform worse. Right, that goes back to myth number one. That means less muscle stimulation. Even the lower calorie burn it compromised results. All of it goes down okay, and training fasted will probably increase your muscle breakdown, and that's not what we're trying to do, because the research is clear that having amino acids available through eating protein helps preserve muscle during fat loss. So why are we trying to slow that down? So all of this illustrates the bigger point Don't let artificial rules get in the way of what actually drives results Proper fueling, progressive overload, consistency and all the basic lifestyle habits. All right.

Philip Pape: 22:55

So the key takeaway isn't that intermittent fasting is quote unquote bad. It's that you just do not need it for results. Most of my clients don't use it and those who do typically choose it because listen up it matches their natural hunger patterns or their schedule, purely practical reasons that are individualized to them. It is not for any supposed metabolic benefits whatsoever. Now what does matter? All right. Number one creating a sustainable calorie deficit. If you're trying to lose fat, you probably need to be in a moderate, sustainable calorie deficit through tracking and awareness, eating balanced meals, prioritizing protein and whole foods. Number two timing your meals to support your training performance. So where timing matters is getting it around your workouts, not whether you have fasting and feeding windows. The next one is getting adequate sleep, managing stress and then finally being consistent with the foundational basics before you start to add any complexity like intermittent fasting, which, at some point, if you want to try it out, great, but don't use that as step one.

Philip Pape: 23:58

What is the best approach? The best approach is the one that fits your lifestyle, the one that you can maintain long-term. If that includes some form of IF, then great, and if not, that's perfectly fine too. That is really my message today. All right, so if you want to learn exactly how to set up your nutrition for results without restrictive rules like fasting, download my free Nutrition 101 for Body Composition guide. You'll discover how to master your macros, optimize your workout nutrition and develop sustainable habits. That last, click the link in the show notes or go to witsandweightscom slash free to get your copy today. Until next time, keep using your wits lifting some weights and remember you don't need complicated rules around meal timing to get great results. Focus on the approach you can be consistent with while enjoying your diet. I'll talk to you next time here on the Wits and Weights Podcast.

Modern TRT Is Broken (How to Fix Your Testosterone) with Ali Gilbert | Ep 253

Download my free Nutrition for Body Composition Guide to set up your calories and macros for fat loss, muscle gain, better health, improved workout nutrition, and recovery, and a sustainable approach to life (even if you have low T), or go to witsandweights.com/free

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Are you sabotaging your hormones with a cookie-cutter testosterone protocol? Could blocking estrogen be harming your health instead of helping? Is low testosterone silently holding you back from being your best self?

Philip (@witsandweights) teams up with Ali Gilbert, the "Queen of Men’s Health," to explore testosterone replacement therapy (TRT). Ali shares her expertise on optimizing men’s hormones, health, and performance, breaking down common TRT pitfalls, outdated beliefs, and the importance of personalized approaches. Together, they dive into estrogen’s vital role in male health and the transformative power of optimized testosterone.

Learn how to optimize your testosterone and take charge of your health in ways you never thought possible.

Ali Gilbert is a fitness expert and leading advocate for men’s health. Known as the "Queen of Men’s Health," she combines her exercise science and coaching background with deep hormone optimization expertise. Ali has helped thousands of men achieve better health, performance, and confidence by addressing the root causes of hormonal imbalances with an evidence-based, no-nonsense approach.

Today, you’ll learn all about:

2:51 The Wild West of TRT clinics and red flags to watch for
6:30 Personalized protocols Vs. One-size-fits-all approaches
14:39 How stress and under-eating sabotage testosterone
18:37 Navigating difficult conversations with men
24:03 Understanding estrogen in TRT
28:39 Breaking the myth: TRT is not a shortcut to getting “jacked"
32:11 Optimal testosterone levels and symptom resolution
36:33 How TRT enhances confidence and decision-making
41:08 Ali’s journey into men’s health and creating her unique niche
48:28 Outro

Episode resources:

• Website: https://ali-gilbert.com

• Instagram: @thealigilbert

• Facebook: @thealigilbert

• YouTube: @queenofmenshealth

Why Most TRT Protocols Fail and How to Fix Them

Are you considering testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) or already on a protocol that doesn’t feel quite right? You're not alone. Many men dive into TRT expecting life-changing results, only to be met with disappointment. The truth is that most TRT protocols are fundamentally flawed, leaving men with persistent symptoms and even worse outcomes.

This post will unpack the common mistakes in modern TRT, highlight why standard protocols fail, and explore what an optimized approach looks like. If you’re ready to finally take control of your hormones and health, keep reading.

Why Most TRT Protocols Don’t Work

Cookie-Cutter Approaches The biggest issue with many TRT clinics is their one-size-fits-all approach. Patients often receive the same protocol—200 mg of testosterone weekly, paired with an estrogen blocker like anastrozole. These clinics prioritize volume over quality care, giving every patient the same treatment regardless of individual needs.

Mismanagement of Estrogen Contrary to popular belief, estrogen isn’t the villain it’s often made out to be. In men, estrogen is cardioprotective, improves insulin sensitivity, and supports libido. Blocking it can lead to joint pain, mood issues, and even long-term health risks like osteoporosis. Yet many clinics routinely prescribe aromatase inhibitors, assuming any rise in estrogen is harmful.

Overlooking Lifestyle Factors Hormones don’t exist in a vacuum. Stress, sleep, training, and nutrition all influence your hormone levels. Clinics that only focus on lab results while ignoring the human behind the labs are setting patients up for failure.

How to Fix Your TRT Protocol

Personalization is Key A good TRT protocol considers your lifestyle, symptoms, and goals—not just your lab results. Bloodwork is crucial, but it’s only one piece of the puzzle. A competent provider will ask about your diet, training, sleep, stress levels, and medical history to build a protocol tailored to your needs.

Avoid Overmedication If your protocol includes routine estrogen blockers or unnecessary medications like HCG year-round, it’s worth reconsidering. Estrogen management should be based on symptoms, not arbitrary lab values.

Inject More Strategically For most men, splitting testosterone injections into two or three smaller doses per week provides more stable hormone levels and minimizes side effects. Forget once-a-week mega doses—they lead to peaks and crashes, making you feel worse.

Why Your Lifestyle Still Matters

Even the best TRT protocol won’t save you if your lifestyle is a mess. Many men come to TRT clinics underfed, overstressed, and overtrained. These factors not only reduce testosterone but also affect how well your body responds to treatment.

Start by:

• Eating enough calories to support your activity level.

• Strength training regularly to maximize muscle growth and bone density.

• Sleeping 7-9 hours per night to optimize recovery and hormonal balance.

• Managing stress through mindfulness, therapy, or hobbies.

Myths About TRT You Should Ignore

1. TRT Will Make You Instantly Jacked No, injecting testosterone isn’t a shortcut to six-pack abs. It’s a tool to restore your biological baseline, not a replacement for hard work in the gym and kitchen.

2. You Can Stay at Low Calories Forever Low-calorie diets may help you lose weight initially, but chronic undereating will tank your metabolism and testosterone. Most men need significantly more food than they think—especially if they’re active.

3. Estrogen Should Be Eliminated High estrogen levels on a lab report aren’t inherently bad. They’re often a sign that your body is converting testosterone effectively, which is beneficial.

Key Takeaways

• TRT is a powerful tool, but only if used correctly. Work with a knowledgeable provider who takes a holistic approach to your health.

• Optimize your lifestyle before starting TRT to maximize its benefits.

• Question protocols that rely on estrogen blockers or overly simplified dosing schedules.

• Remember, hormones are just one part of the equation. Your training, nutrition, and recovery still matter.

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Transcript

Philip Pape: 0:01

If you're considering testosterone replacement therapy or already on it, you might be shocked to learn that most protocols are doing more harm than good. What if I told you that typical TRT treatments and protocols are leaving men worse off than before they started? Well, today we're going to expose that truth. With testosterone replacement, with Allie Gilbert, the queen of men's health, who's helped thousands of men optimize their hormones the right way, you'll discover why standard protocols often fail, what your doctor isn't telling you about dosing and timing, and how to actually fix your hormones. Whether you're on TRT or not, if you want to cut through the BS and finally understand what's going on with your testosterone, you are definitely going to enjoy this one. Going to enjoy this one.

Philip Pape: 0:51

Welcome to Wits and Weights, the podcast that blends evidence and engineering to help you build smart, efficient systems to achieve your dream physique. I'm your host, philip Pape, and today we're exposing the truth but also simplifying TRT and hormone optimization with Allie Gilbert, the queen of men's health. Allie brings an unfiltered approach to a complex topic that we, as men, don't always talk about. She's helped thousands of busy professionals fix their hormones, transform their health, and today you're going to learn why most protocols fail, what actually works for optimizing testosterone and what to do in terms of treatment and lifestyle. Allie's going to show us what a personalized approach looks like and why typical advice, even by well-meaning people, could be holding you back. Allie, thank you so much for coming on and welcome to the show. Thank you for having me.

Ali Gilbert: 1:35

This is fun. This is good because I'm fresh off my Silverback Summit men's health event, so everything we talked about is ridiculously fresh.

Philip Pape: 1:46

Ridiculously fresh. Hot pink, extreme sour patch kid fresh right. Yes, oh, I don't like sour.

Ali Gilbert: 1:52

I haven't done.

Philip Pape: 1:54

You bring those, I bring the Diet Coke and we'll just alienate a whole bunch of folks that don't get it. I love it.

Ali Gilbert: 1:58

Oh, then we'll go viral.

Philip Pape: 2:00

No worries, we will, we will. It's funny. Dr Spencer Nadalski is coming on soon Same idea. I think he posted a meme that was Whitney Houston singing nothing, and it was like here's what happens if you cut out red dyes for your health Nothing, you know what I mean. Anyway, yeah, no, I'm sure that was awesome. What I love about your work is you tell it straight, but you also have taken kind of the best of what medical experts and scientists and everything have on men's health in general and you distill it down. So I think, to set the stage, I want to look at what's wrong with what's out there first and kind of what crazy stuff you've seen, and then we can segue that into what actually works both in terms of treatment and lifestyle. Right Like training and things like that works both in terms of treatment and lifestyle. Right Like training and things like that. So like what's the craziest, most inappropriate, like TRT protocol or approach that you've seen.

Ali Gilbert: 2:56

Oh, most of them have to do with clinics down here in Florida, because in Florida it's kind of like the wild west where anybody can own a clinic. So there's one like next to the gas station, like there's so many of them, and basically you could walk in and just be like I'm going to write my name on a piece of paper and then they'll be like cool, what do you want? Windstraw, anavar, deca? Oh, you want testosterone too? Cool, we'll give it all to you. And then usually my joke is guys are going to be like where are these clinics? Can I go, you know?

Philip Pape: 3:24

so yeah right, exactly they're like. It's where you sign up for being the governor and also get your driver's license and then your TRT.

Ali Gilbert: 3:30

Yes, exactly, and a big problem with a lot of them is they give out the same protocol for everybody because they're all playing the volume game, kind of like you know a commercial gym that has a very low ticket for entry. They just need numbers. So a lot of these clinics price their services very low and then give everyone kind of the same protocol, which is 200 milligrams of testosterone every week with anastrozole, which is an estrogen blocker, and then either HCG or gonadalrelin, which they claim helps fertility. Hcg does, gonadalrelin does nothing. Hcg also like we can get into this later, but that's something that doesn't need to be taken year round. But many clinics will sell guys on that because they sell HCG and the worst protocols that I've come across.

Ali Gilbert: 4:25

I had a guy who was I think he was 53, and he was on enclomethine and anastrozole, which is probably like the worst thing that you can do to anybody, no matter their age. But it was a little ludicrous. He was on that for over a year and I was like how do you feel? And he's like like shit. So I'm like you know that's to be expected. So I usually have to educate them as to why that is not the best approach for them why they may see their labs looking pretty but they may not feel so great, and what the next best steps are.

Ali Gilbert: 5:02

Because we work with a telehealth clinic called Merrick Health and Merrick is very competent and they do a great job. So if someone's not happy with their provider or they're on a protocol that I know is not going to help them or make them feel better, then I will let them know. Hey, you can come with us All our clients go through this process and then you'll be with somebody who actually knows what they're doing. So there's a lot of crazy protocols there, guys just taking stuff that they don't need or that they were sold on that they don't even know what it does, they don't know how to pronounce it. They just take it because a lot of guys don't question this stuff, because it is not necessarily the most comfortable conversation, especially if you don't know much about it. You're not going to be like, well, I don't need that when someone who has MD after their name is telling you that you need it.

Philip Pape: 5:57

Yeah, who I'm sure is coming across as supremely confident, bordering on arrogant, which is the vibe I get a lot of times from these guys. Yes, okay, so you mentioned blood work and you also mentioned how you feel, and it is kind of interesting that someone will go on a protocol for anything and this applies to men and women and then it's not actually addressing the whole. You know you did this in the first place, right, it's not just to get a number on your labs to change, but it must start there, along with understanding symptoms. So like what is the screening process that a good clinic or provider would start with to actually personalize it?

Ali Gilbert: 6:30

Blood work obviously is necessary, but instead of just reading the numbers and going off the arbitrary ranges that many labs have come up with, it's about asking about person, like who is the human behind these lab results? What's your lifestyle like? You know? What is your diet like? How are you sleeping? Do you have any family history? How do you feel? What are your goals? How do you train?

Ali Gilbert: 6:54

All of that goes into what your labs are, because your labs are just a snapshot in time, so it's not that these don't change ever. It's literally what is reflective of what you're doing now. So if you are dehydrated, you may see certain things elevated. If you're eating high fat, for you know, a night or a few weeks or whatever, that will be reflected in the lab. So it's important to know that if someone trained the day before, or if they're extremely dehydrated, why some markers might reflect that, and not to lose their mind and say, oh, you need to go do X, y, z or you have this because this is high.

Ali Gilbert: 7:34

It's not necessarily how that works, because a lot of it can be attached to things the person did the night before, a few weeks before, a few months before. So it's important to understand everything about them so you can have the full assessment of okay, this is not someone who sits on the couch all day drinking beer. This is an active individual who eats very well, does not drink alcohol, has other stuff going on in life, maybe they're stressed. All that stuff. You can't just read the labs and be like, okay, this is all red, so we have to fix this with this pharmaceutical. Have a nice day.

Philip Pape: 8:08

The doctor approach. So then you mentioned the person sitting on the couch drinking beer versus the active person. Who do you tend to deal with most? And also would you say, hey, it's not TRT, you need, like, let's work on the lifestyle period, like I can tell that's the issue before we even go there.

Ali Gilbert: 8:24

We tend to work with guys who are active, who are, you know, business owners, high performers, and usually they stress and under eat themselves into poor health. So that's kind of our demographic. But we have worked with guys who have body fat to lose because, as you know, many men will say I'm 15 percent body fat and they're really like 20 or 25. So that's where photos come in very useful as well. So we tend to deal with guys who are like you know, I tried everything to get leaner, I tried everything to grow muscle and nothing works for me and I'm a special snowflake or I don't know what to do. And I'm also very grateful that they realize this, because a lot of people are very prideful in knowing what to do in the gym. Maybe they've been lifting for years, maybe they've been active for years. But there does come a point where, if you're after a certain goal, hiring someone that knows how to get you there not only quicker but more like efficient, so that you don't have to think of stuff and that you don't pivot and try to negotiate with yourself every time you don't feel good or the scale doesn't say what you want, or whatever. You have that objective view, and so I always tell clients I'm like I've been coaching for about 24 years, I've had a coach for seven and a half years and they're like why? And I'm like I don't wanna deal with myself, like I'd love going into the gym knowing this is my program, and then you know, whatever I'm eating or if I have a photo shoot or something I wanna get ready for, I don't have to worry about the timeline on that, whether I'm doing the right things with progress or whatever. He worries about all that. So those are the guys that we tend to deal with and a lot of them maybe are not sure if they have low testosterone or don't think they do, because their only symptoms are non-sexual symptoms, because many guys think, well, if my dick still works, that means I have high T. Not always the case. They forget about the brain fog and the lack of energy and maybe inability to sleep and kind of fat storage patterns that they never noticed before.

Ali Gilbert: 10:30

So if someone's like a hot mess on labs and their testosterone is low, then we may say you know, we have to rectify all this before we look at testosterone. But quite often it's like a chicken or the egg scenario where they really need it and if they're under coaching with us, we know we're going to handle all the lifestyle stuff, because that's something they're going to have to address anyway whether they go on testosterone or not. So I'm very pro testosterone because I could read labs and know exactly how things will be able to improve with testosterone. But it's not something guys are obligated to do and I just educate them because a lot of them have questions or concerns or they've heard any of the stigmas associated with it and it's really just a very open conversation and we have a lot of guys that are like you know what?

Ali Gilbert: 11:19

I'm not ready. Let me do everything I can to get healthy first, which I think is awesome, then we can revisit it. And so when they do that and then they get healthy, they feel good and maybe then we bring in testosterone, it can be game changing for them, because then everything becomes amplified because they're already healthy. If someone's not healthy, it's still going to take a lot of work to get them healthy. But they may not have the best experience on testosterone because their expectations are a little bit different than what they thought it would be going on.

Philip Pape: 11:54

Okay. So what if someone is because I hear this a lot like they're doing all the things they're training, eating well, maybe they are getting sleep, maybe they are managing stress and they don't have any quote-unquote symptoms, at least what they think are the symptoms and then their lab work is kind of average. Let's say, you know, like total testosterone might be in the 500s or something and they're in their 40s. Is there a situation where you could tell just from labs, despite everything else, that still there might be a potential for improving it from that point?

Ali Gilbert: 12:26

Yes, and that will depend on their luteinizing hormone and follicle stimulating hormone numbers. So LH and FSH, those are what kind of signal the testicles to produce testosterone. So if those are high, then typically the balls are done Like something's got to, you know, be looked at here, and it means that they're screaming for the body to produce it, but the body's not producing it. And we'll see that in guys. I used to say older, but we'll see that in older guys 40 plus, it used to be like 50 or 60 plus but if somebody's like super stressed and this is a stress-based low testosterone, those numbers will be quite low.

Ali Gilbert: 13:11

And so then it's taking inventory of all the stressors in their life and then seeing all right, what is the best approach for this person? Does it make sense to bring testosterone in right now, because it can help combat a lot of the stressors? What are their future goals in life? You know a lot of guys are like I don't want to be on it the rest of my life and they want to hold off as long as possible, which they absolutely should do. It is a lifelong commitment. A lot of men struggle with that, so it's really understanding what their ultimate goal is, and does this make sense now? Because it will make sense at some point.

Philip Pape: 13:48

It's just when. Yeah, I think it's important to understand. You did allude to the fact that some of this is happening at younger ages and I've heard you talk about, even from the time we're born, how men are more I don't know, not the word infantilized, but more feminized and shorter, like taint, distance and stuff like that You've talked about. It's just fascinating, stuff like that you've talked about. It's just fascinating. But one thing I want to pull on one thread is you talked about stress and under eating and you know how the marketing is in the fitness industry.

Philip Pape: 14:11

There's so much marketed at women and like perimenopausal women and under eating for women, and you don't hear this talked about as much for men, just like you with personal clients. It's like, oh wow, you see how much is going on in men's life. That is just the same. I mean, we're all human beings dealing with these things. Like what are the biggest challenges? You see, when it comes to stress and under eating, that the guys listening can be like, oh yeah, I identify with that and now I can kind of grasp it and do something about it.

Ali Gilbert: 14:38

Well, the first thing is okay. So you're not eating enough and obviously they're terrified to eat more. Is what you're doing now working? So we have no choice. Now we can get you lean, but if you're eating 1700 calories, how low are you willing to go? It's going to suck.

Ali Gilbert: 14:57

You know I diet on like 1500 and we have guys who eat 1500 and I'm five, three, 120 pounds. So most men are not my height or stature. So it's getting them to realize that eating more is going to help them. They may not gain a pound. I mean, we had a guy who was eating. On his off days he was at 1400. On his training days he was at like 16 or 1700. And it took until over 3000 before he actually put on weight. So that goes to show you there's a lot in the tank that was not being used and he likely was breaking down muscle. So they don't realize that yes, it worked originally to get you lean, but now we're like so low and you feel like shit. You can't train hard, you're getting injured.

Ali Gilbert: 15:49

A lot of things are screaming at you saying yo give me calories. So adding food can help. The workouts can help them train harder, because people think the only way to create a calorie deficit is by lowering calories, and then they increase activity. But you can also keep activity high and bring calories up and still maintain a deficit. They just don't think of that part. So if you increase your activity, you got to bring calories with you. And no one does that because they think, oh well, eat less, train more, that's going to work. And so therefore I'll look the way you want Not necessarily and they'll stay at low calories amount way too long.

Ali Gilbert: 16:29

Like I always use Chris Bumstead as an example, for many reasons, he went to 1500 calories when he was dieting for the Olympia. That's the Olympia, hard dieting, someone of his height and weight, really low calories. So that I use that as an example when guys complain that dieting is hard and they're hungry and blah, blah, blah. But on the other side, he only stayed there for a short time. He didn't stay there for seven months. So that doesn't mean it's going to work better the longer that you do it, because the longer you do it, the more symptoms you're going to experience. So you have to get someone metabolically healthy and the only way to raise metabolism is not through some herbal supplement or whatever. It's to actually add food. It's talking them off the ledge on how eating more is okay. If the scale does go up, it's not body fat, because you're not going to increase body fat within a couple days. Like you have glycogen, you've got water weight, you've got actual food, like you know. So it's a lot.

Philip Pape: 17:33

I've seen this too. I totally get it because the fear of gaining weight and you're right, it didn't take you three months to put on the extra weight that you're worried about. Right, it took like many years. So it's not going to. When you gain intentionally and are training to build muscle and feel your body, you're not just going to blow up.

Philip Pape: 17:50

And as far as the calories go, like I hear you, I diet on around 2000 calories. I get to eat over three when I'm gaining. Right, If I had to eat 1600 ever I would just like want to shoot myself. That's crazy. But everybody's different and there's different body sizes too. I do know someone who had bariatric surgery and he's kind of stuck in that 1600 range and he's short too. So people are different. So conversations I know this is your bag is like normalizing the conversations around all of this stuff and being vulnerable and with men and all that. Where do we even crack into that? I guess what's the biggest fear, the thing that men don't talk about, that they can be encouraged to just right here, right now, as they're listening, like start talking about it more, and that way you can get the support you need on that thing that could be holding you back.

Ali Gilbert: 18:36

I would say their relationship with their spouse, their family and their friends. Because you know, especially if it's a guy who's used to hanging out with people that like to drink or party, or maybe they're married to somebody who has like zero interest in fitness, they're not going to understand why this person wants to change. So everyone sees like if someone drinks and all of a sudden they're not drinking, they lose their mind. But like if this person showed up to the bar face planning like Buffalo Wild Wings, I don't think anyone would bat an eye Like it's the most bizarre thing. So I always ask about those relationships, because not only will men use I have to talk to my wife as a smoke screen, they're also afraid that the wife may not understand. Why are you investing in a program? Because maybe they failed many times before trying certain things and now they're going to spend money doing another thing.

Philip Pape: 19:38

Here's another one. Yeah, exactly.

Ali Gilbert: 19:41

Or that they're going to have to make changes or even go on testosterone, which maybe their spouse doesn't understand or thinks it's steroids or whatever. So there's a lot that goes into these decisions. So you have to understand where this person's coming from, because if they're surrounded by people who are just toxic to what their goals are, they have to have some hard conversations and they're not going to like that, but it's the truth. Like you know, we have ways that we can help navigate that Like this is what you say to like that and then explaining to those close to them why these changes are important for their health, for them to show up as the proper husband, father, employee, business owner, whoever it is that they know they can be and that they want to be, because maybe they've lost themselves in work or a marriage or something, and those are things that people just don't usually bring up.

Philip Pape: 20:50

Yeah, I mean from firsthand experience.

Philip Pape: 20:53

For years I know I wouldn't ever share anything like that with even my own spouse and even friends.

Philip Pape: 20:59

And for me, interestingly, ali it was a close friend who had dealt with anxiety and depression and things that I couldn't relate to all of a sudden started opening up to me as another guy and kind of encouraged me to do the same and I realized how valuable that was. And there are so many men that just from a very young age, the way they're raised and even seeing their fathers as examples and my father was very, very quiet, right so I didn't even know to express love until I got into relationships in my 20s. So I think that's really important and it's tough to talk about. It even makes me slightly uncomfortable. Now, right, it's just a thing, it's like an inherent thing. So when it comes to a spouse, for example, because a lot of our listeners are probably in their 40s, 50s, and so, just very simply, what is one thing someone can do? If today, after listening to this, they want to go open up to their spouse, like, how can they start that?

Ali Gilbert: 21:48

Like any difficult fun conversation. You don't do it when someone like first gets home from work or they're stressed, or if kids are running around. You know, set time aside and just be like I have something that I think is very important for us as a family that I would love to talk to you about. When can we do that? And then you know if it's entering a coaching program or going on TRT. You have to like explain the benefits of that, because it won't be news to anybody that the person's been feeling this way. Maybe their mood has sucked libido's down, productivity, like showing up as a father, all that stuff. So it's going to be like the elephant in the room.

Ali Gilbert: 22:31

But harnessing that and then addressing it and acknowledging it kind of helps that conversation flow and say like this is something I truly help or I truly think that can help me. This is going to allow me to kind of push off any scary things like diseases, stuff like that. This is why it's important for my health and kind of take the conversation from there Because, finances aside, like it's either paying for it now or paying for medical bills and other stuff that can come with ignoring your health, which a lot of guys will. They don't want to confront lab work, they don't want to know, they don't want to address it, they just internalize it. So once they see on paper like this needs to change, then that brings a whole other conversation with it that we can't ignore this. This is something that we have to address together and I'm not asking your permission for this. I'm asking for your support in doing this.

Philip Pape: 23:36

Yeah, and I imagine that can be a huge relief for some people to just get it off your chest. Whatever happens, it's wonderful to be able to say that. Okay, so let's go back into some nuts and bolts, ali, and talk about the TRT stuff again a little bit. And you mentioned estrogen management, estrogen blockers, things like that. What about that? Should guys be aware of that? I guess a lot of these providers maybe get wrong and you have to be aware of red flags, things like that. You know, as you're building this protocol.

Ali Gilbert: 24:03

Blocking estrogen became a thing from the bodybuilding world and we did like I always bring this up on our TRT panel at Silverback because it's such a hot topic. So men need estrogen, just like women need testosterone, and one of the biggest benefits of testosterone replacement in men is the conversion of testosterone to estrogen, because estrogen is cardioprotective, it is neuroprotective, it helps your libido, it helps your insulin sensitivity. A lot of good things come from that. When you block or suppress it to satisfy a lab marker, you're doing a huge detriment to a man's health, and I always use the analogy of women in menopause. They go through menopause and they lose estrogen. What happens? Belly fat, osteoporosis, insulin resistance, cardiovascular issues. So it's the same as when guys block and suppress it, and a lot of clinics don't understand this and they think, well, estrogen's bad, it's going to cause gyno, it's going to cause water retention, strokes, all this shit. It's not true and the doctors that I associate with have done tons of work researching this and the real science of how estrogen acts in men. And when you see estrogen high on a lab panel in a man who's on TRT, that's a good thing. So it also depends when he did his injection, like if he did his injection Monday and then gets labs drawn on Tuesday, everything's going to be high and then it slowly tapers until his next shot. Or if men are on once a week, yeah, you're going to see it really high at first and then it's going to slowly drop off. So there's a lot that goes into reading those labs.

Ali Gilbert: 25:54

But the lab marker of estrogen is not actually reflective of how much estrogen a man has, because it does not work as an endocrine hormone. It works as a paracrine hormone, so it's really just kind of like a fraction of what is in a man's body or in the tissue and all of that. So it's something that a lot of our providers just ignore. None of our clients are on estrogen blockers and they feel amazing. It's when guys are on estrogen blockers and they're like my joints hurt, my libido's not where I thought it should be, and so then these clinics are like, oh, maybe you need more testosterone, and then with more testosterone comes more conversion. So then, oh, we need more anastrozole. I'm like, oh, my God, not how it works. So that's a huge hot topic in the TRT space, because people think like, oh, I feel my nipples are sensitive, I need an astrozole and it's like no, that's a normal fluctuation of hormones you're experiencing. That goes away.

Philip Pape: 26:54

And just to be clear, this is measured through estradiol on the labs. Yeah, just so folks know, because I definitely have heard that story. Now, sometimes it's because their T goes like over a thousand and maybe they're on too high of a dose or something. But, like you said, it's not the downstream effect is not what we're worried about, it's the baseline protocol. We're worried about not trying to block the estrogen. What about aromatase inhibitors, ais? Right, like, where does that come into this discussion?

Ali Gilbert: 27:19

It's the same thing. So anastrozole, letrozole, aromacin yeah, those are all the estrogen blockers, because they all get prescribed and even, like what you mentioned, with T going over a thousand, like there are some physicians that are like, oh, we can't let it go that high and I'm like why is it bad? Because anything over a thousand is bad. I'm like why Then they have nothing to back it up. Some guys feel amazing in the two thousands, some guys feel awesome when they're like 1400. Like, yeah, it's okay, you know they freak out.

Philip Pape: 27:51

So what does a good protocol look like for most guys? I mean kind of the steps that you take them through.

Ali Gilbert: 27:56

They're on injections. It's two to three days a week, every other day pretty much it's, you know, monday, wednesday, friday. It's two to three days a week, every other day. Pretty much it's Monday, wednesday, friday. That's going to be a great protocol to start with and start there and do nothing else.

Philip Pape: 28:10

Okay, that's good, we like simple, because I know you have your testosterone school right. You still have that taking people through all of this and trying to simplify it. What from all of that? I mean, you've already addressed a lot of the, I guess, myths, we'll call them, but is there something else that people don't understand that.

Ali Gilbert: 28:27

You'd like them to understand that we don't talk about enough. Oh gosh, when do I start?

Philip Pape: 28:30

Open-ended question.

Ali Gilbert: 28:31

You know I'll go off what the comments that I got on Instagram because I get trolled incessantly. That's great, that's great.

Ali Gilbert: 28:36

By people who don't understand it. So there's many reels where I'm talking about this stuff or I'm saying, like you know, you can inject all the steroids and testosterone you want and sit on the couch and you're not going to turn into, like you know, a model or bodybuilder or whatever. And of course, people come at me with this one study that took 600 milligrams injected, which is not TRT dose of testosterone, and people showed to grow muscle without doing anything. Well, people don't know how to read studies. They don't know how studies work. So just because someone grows muscle, that does not mean they look like they've grown muscle. That does not cut body fat down and instantaneous. Oh my gosh, it's like it gets me so heated because it's so stupid. So then people are like well, I have friends that are on everything and they look amazing and they don't really train. I'm sure they don't look amazing and I'm sure you're lying.

Philip Pape: 29:27

I've never met a person like that in my life, yeah.

Ali Gilbert: 29:30

Oh my God, the guys that are like, yeah, trt is going to make me jacked. It's not like the purpose of TRT is to bring you to where you biologically should be. That is it. So when men think, oh, I'm going to look, you know, like whoever they want to look like and get a six pack, I'm like you do realize that even bodybuilders who are on grams of testosterone, they still go to the gym Like they still got to work and they still got to diet and they still got to, you know, do all the other stuff. It doesn't just mean you put a needle in your butt and then you look amazing.

Ali Gilbert: 30:03

So that is one thing that I'm not sure the internet will ever understand, because I did a reel on Jeff Bezos where I was like talking about how, like the new CEO, flex is having a six pack and taking care of yourself and having your health and all of that, and I showed his before and after, from when he was like a dweeb at Amazon to what he looks like now and immediately. A lot of these comments are like he's on TRT, he's on trend, he's on steroids, he's on growth hormone, he has time and money, and I'm like these are all excuses from weak minded individuals, insecure people, yeah yeah, like of all business owners, entrepreneurs I know, myself included I'm not like, oh, I've got like nine hours nothing to do. I think I'll just work out all day. It doesn't work like that, and if you're again on TRT or even growth hormone or whatever, does not mean you're going to look certain way. So that's one of the biggest misconceptions.

Ali Gilbert: 30:59

The other one that I wish people understand is that it can be very health promoting for men, like it can improve quality of life, improve their ability to resist cancers or other diseases and cardiovascular issues Like now. We've seen studies that show low testosterone put somebody at an increased risk of heart attack, stroke and all-cause mortality, increased risk of prostate cancer, increased risk of basically all types of things that people don't want to confront in their life. And a lot of people don't understand that because they've heard bad things. So then they just regurgitate whatever they've heard on the internet and that's not true.

Philip Pape: 31:44

So no, no, it's good, Like the fact that you take tea to get biologically normal, where you need to be, which makes sense. And given that humans live far longer than we did, you know long ago, we're getting to the point, men and women, where hormones drop and you're going to need that eventually, like you said. And the health promoting part I want to ask about that Is there, and this is very difficult with studies is there a causal link or is it correlational, because those who have higher testosterone have maybe better health promoting lifestyles? What's your thought on that?

Ali Gilbert: 32:10

It's causational. So the doctors that I associate with and I always say that because I'm not a medical professional, so this is not me like my opinion hey, these. So this is not me like my opinion hey, these guys have done the research and they know how to differentiate, because a lot of the prostate cancer studies are correlation not causation, so it's filtering out the ones that make no sense with the ones that actually do. And there's a lot of evolved literature showing this, but a lot of physicians don't read it because either hormones are not their specialty, they don't have time, whatever the case. But there is a lot of new literature out there showing the benefit of having optimal testosterone levels as a man, and what is optimal Generally.

Philip Pape: 32:54

I know it depends, but when someone hits symptom resolution.

Ali Gilbert: 32:58

But I would say, if they're 600 plus and that range has been lowered twice in the last few decades on men because they show up with lower and lower teeth. So most guys are told if they're three or 400, oh, you're fine, you're good, you're normal.

Philip Pape: 33:16

Right, then the average used to be, I don't know, eight or 900. And then it's come down to like 400 or something.

Ali Gilbert: 33:22

I don't know it used to start at 350 and go to 1100. And now it starts at like the lowest I've seen is like 186 or 189, which is like abysmal. Like you don't want people walking around with test levels that low, you know, and being told that they're okay. But this is mostly when they go to either a primary GP or somebody who just does not understand hormones and is tied to what insurance companies regulations have to be.

Philip Pape: 33:50

Yep, I totally get it All right. So you mentioned training, and this is probably a myth that we're going to debase. You hear people say okay, now I'm on TRT, what do I do differently with my training? Right, my answer would be nothing like train optimally for yourself, no matter what. I'm sure that's what you're going to say, right, like people want to know, no matter who you are, you need to train guys.

Ali Gilbert: 34:10

Yeah, it happens like all the time, like in Facebook groups and you know, on my Q and A and Instagram. It's like you know, best diet for TRT, best training for TRT? I'm like there is none and you guys make me think like I should make one up because that would sell really well, it would sell. Unfortunately, I have integrity and I refuse to do that.

Philip Pape: 34:31

Oh my God, or you can just be silly about it. When they opened the document, it said just like any other training program or something Right.

Ali Gilbert: 34:38

They'll be like fuck, I paid $5 for this.

Philip Pape: 34:40

Yeah, I know a coach that had something like that. It was like the best foods for this, that. And then you open the document and it said like whatever works for you. It was just funny, Okay. So how often should people be checking their blood work At what age? Should they set a baseline as young as they can in their 20s and then go from there? What are your thoughts on that?

Ali Gilbert: 34:58

Yeah, I think everyone should get it done, you know, starting in their 20s, and most of our clients get blood work twice a year, maybe more often. If they do go on testosterone, the provider will usually ask for labs at three months, but everyone's different. But, honestly, twice a year is a good cadence in which to get labs done.

Allan: 35:20

That's what I do personally cadence in which to get labs done. That's what I do personally. Hi, my name is Alan and I just want to give a shout out to Philip Pape of Wits and Weights for being a huge part of the foundation for my continued health and well-being. Philip exemplifies a nutrition coach who demonstrates how much he cares. Philip works tirelessly and with dedication to provide coaching, support and major content for us to use. He creates a practical approach from research and Philip empowers all of us to use food as quality for our health. He is skilled in how to assess and direct nutrition. Philip creates a community full of wisdom, support and camaraderie. In summary, philip Pape is the real deal. He knows how to assess and direct nutrition and he continues to steer me in the right direction. Thank you, philip.

Philip Pape: 36:14

Just like training, nutrition, everything else lifestyle-related guys need to be aware of that changes. Not that you have to do differently, but like it opens up avenues you had maybe closed off because of your symptoms and now you know what I'm saying. Like it kind of opens up new doors in your life when you're on TRT.

Ali Gilbert: 36:33

Yeah, a lot of guys. They start to notice their confidence increases and they're quicker to make decisions, whereas before they might've been more passive or slower in executing stuff. So a lot of them are like, oh my gosh, I like was able to say yes or no or, you know, decide something quite quickly. And it becomes this like the aura changes on Zoom to like they look more confident, they act like it, they can sleep better too. Like they look more confident, they act like it, they can sleep better.

Ali Gilbert: 37:05

And when you sleep better, it solves a lot of problems where you can train harder, you can eat more, you can do a lot of things that maybe you couldn't do before. So it kind of just gives them their life back in a sense, where now they're actually able to be a man. And that can be like associated with negative things, and I don't think it is at all, because somebody who had trouble making decisions or standing up for themselves or taking the lead, who can now do that, is a really good thing, especially if they own a business or they're in a high stress job. The last thing you want to do when you're in a high pressure, high stress environment is to waver on decisions that need to be made quickly. So those are things that guys will comment on.

Philip Pape: 37:48

Yeah, I think that's awesome and I agree there's no. You know, if you were going to use the word toxic, which I can't stand anymore when it comes to this stuff. I used to be a super shy introvert and I didn't go on T to get past it myself, I went to public speaking courses and now I do a podcast and stuff like that, but it helps you help more people, it helps you speak up, like you said, it helps you make an impact, the fact that you can be more confident and, as a man, I think that is something a lot of men are missing. And when you hear surveys of how the world has been changing and we're not going to get into politics or anything but a lot of men feel like they don't have that sense of being a man and being a provider and being a protector. And you could do it in a way that's still completely in line with the other values that we value in society.

Philip Pape: 38:32

Anyway, that's just my little side thing, because I totally agree that men need that. Can you tell, talking to somebody, that they need help? Do you have that voodoo empathy? Oh yeah, it's easy. It's easy, okay. Okay, tell me more about that.

Ali Gilbert: 38:48

You know there's a lot of men that they're just very unsure of a lot of things. And this is different than being skeptical of the need for TRT, because absolutely somebody should question something that's a lifelong commitment. But it's more of like. You know, they can't just like go, they have to like, they hold themselves back, they go back and forth. You know they're very passive. Where it's like, there's people I can bulldoze and go at them because they don't have the confidence to be able to like stand up. It's hard to articulate and I don't do that purposely because you know, oh, this guy's weak minded, I'm going to fucking lay the hammer like. That's now how I am.

Ali Gilbert: 39:31

It's more you have to approach some guys more of like a softer, coddling approach, where some guys you can be harder and more direct, because a lot of men who have low testosterone have high anxiety and sometimes that high anxiety stays when they go on, testosterone goes away or it can be amplified.

Ali Gilbert: 39:51

So just because someone has anxiety doesn't mean they have low T, but quite often there are guys who have very low T, high anxiety, and they question everything. So instead of questioning everything, which a lot of women do like, a lot of women are like but what if this happens and if this and then that and then that? And I'm like stop, like guys will do the same thing. So I have to spend a little extra time helping them understand their decisions, talking them through the best pathway for them, stuff like that. And then physically, like you can see certain character traits that they have like more of a feminine look and I don't know, like soft skin, like because like when a guy does go into saucer like he's, his jawline changes his whole, like demeanor, even over zoom, like it's like damn, you got confidence, now All right, and just their ability to communicate becomes a lot better. It's hard to say, but I can usually just I think that's cool.

Philip Pape: 40:50

I mean it came to mind because I mean, you're kind of unique in the space, right, allie? You know this. You're unique being a woman doing this and the way you speak about it. I mean, I'm not sure if there's got to be a few others out there, but this is more of your story and I'm sure you get this question all the time. But, like, what drew you to helping men specifically?

Ali Gilbert: 41:08

I always joke it's because I have daddy issues and really want to save the men, but people don't get it. So then I'm like that doesn't make sense. But I did have a compromised relationship with my father growing up, which does contribute to needing some sort of validating in with men. How can I help them? And it really turned into I want them to end up not like him, I want them to live their best life. But the real story was basically when I graduated with the exercise science degree, I was like I want to train athletes, like we all do, and then you realize they're all broke and that's not going to really do well.

Ali Gilbert: 41:50

And you know, I grew up in Greenwich, connecticut, where it's not cheapest place to live. So I worked at a commercial gym and I was training people. I got a lot of guys who played golf and I was like, well, I don't know anything about golf, I played soccer in college. Golf is a sport and these guys are actually willing to work hard, focus type A and they could afford to train. So I was like I'm going to go all in on golf fitness, which I did, and I was the golf fitness person for years, like the go-to golf fitness person, golf digest, top 50, like all that stuff. But it brought me all men as a clientele and a lot of the conversations would go into nutrition and energy and hormones and all that and I was like no one's talking about this with these guys. So I kind of just ran with it because I enjoyed working with the guys better, simply because I related easier, because I was an athlete and you know very much like very chill, like I don't fit in in my hometown. I was not about like designer clothing and all that stuff. I just was like get to work, let's do it. So that's kind of how I landed in men's health and then just went to medical conferences, built relationships with doctors, shadowed them, learned everything I could, and then I ended up speaking at medical conferences and then kept working on those relationships to get blood work for clients, because I knew that that was kind of the missing piece of what I could do legally.

Ali Gilbert: 43:23

And now here we are where I realized there's no events that cover this stuff. So I created my own event and I have my own network of physicians and working with Merrick has been a game changer for a value add in our business and so now everyone's on the same page, because there's always this huge divide between medical and fitness and it would create conflict because a lot of men would piecemeal their health together, like they would get nutrition info from here. They would do this training program and then talk to this doctor. But this doctor is completely the opposite of what they read or what they talk to their coach about. So on paper I'm like just some fitness professional who's going to listen to me. You know, if you go back to tell your doctor, like you know, my trainer says that you know, aromatase inhibitors are bad and I should be on more than one injection a week, he's going to be like who's this chick, you know?

Ali Gilbert: 44:18

So now it's a lot different where the doctors call me and they seek me out because they see the ability to collaborate makes everybody better and everyone wins, because it's not a competition. It's more like hey, this is your lane. I can't legally prescribe medications. I can handle all the lifestyle stuff that many doctors will try to give advice on, but it either falls on deaf ears or it's not customized enough to where somebody can follow it. Let's come together so that we can produce the best experience for somebody, so that they get what they need. But then everyone talks. So I'll sit in on sessions with our clients, with their provider, so that, hey, we got this under control and he's eating this way. So that might reflect in the labs, but it's not going to be for a while. But oh, I know that he's dealing with some blood sugar issues. We've got him doing this, like all of that, so that cool, their job's easier, our job's easier and everyone wins.

Philip Pape: 45:18

That's a great way to do it, because a lot of people they have to be the center of all of that right. The client or the patient has to kind of pull and go and push and, like you mentioned multiple times, gps tend to be a little bit clueless on this. Most of them are not all. I've met a few good ones who actually want to listen and they also maybe lift weights, which is rare, but sometimes you see that. And the other thing I noticed is just even talking to you here and this is why I wanted you on is there is something about a man talking to another professional, and this is my opinion. It's just there's certain walls that are there and I feel like maybe when they talk to you, they're like all right, this is a totally different experience. You're a woman I could just open up for whatever reason. It feels like you're more you know.

Ali Gilbert: 46:00

I don't know if you get that yeah, I get that a lot, because I used to get like do guys even open up to you as a woman? Like isn't that embarrassing? And then I think, because I normalize this, I talk about it so much, something about me makes people just like tell me their whole life story, so I don't know too much right, too much of their life story, like if maybe that's astrological or you know, I'm a good listener, I don't know.

Ali Gilbert: 46:25

But at least I'm able to disarm that wall and then really get the truth. Because there is like sometimes guys will tell me something but not tell one of my coaches something, and then I'm like okay, this is not like HIPAA, but I have to go back to the client and be like, hey, you know.

Philip Pape: 46:43

Is it okay if I share this with them?

Ali Gilbert: 46:45

Yeah, so it does allow them to open up. Plus, I think it's a little bit of a pride thing, Like if a guy is sitting in front of another jacked dude he's not going to be like I can't get it up, and you know, yeah, good point.

Philip Pape: 46:57

It's competitive, like in our nature to be competitive and, like you know, you're like the primates, you know, fighting in the Savannah, kind of thing. Yeah, yeah, that's cool. Um, it's interesting, yeah, because they're like I'm obviously a man and I have. Most of my clients are actually like women, two thirds of them and I remember early on in my coaching days being kind of insecure not confident necessarily that we even want to open up, but I find it can work both ways and it can work men to men, women to women, Like it just depends on the individual right. It's not that one is better than the other, but I think you do a great job in your space with this. So, having said all that, I know there's so much about testosterone we could have gotten into. Folks should check out all of your content. Is there something you wish I would have asked, given where this conversation went and what would be your answer?

Ali Gilbert: 47:41

I mean, I don't know, I'm a very twisted individual so the direction of conversations can go multiple ways. So I don't know, that's a very odd question for me to answer because, like, I think we did cover a lot. So, yeah, I can't answer that. I'm sorry. I wish I had a more entertaining response, but I don't. No, that's a tough one.

Philip Pape: 48:00

It holds people up and I know, if I get asked that I probably am like deer in headlights myself. It's all good. It's all good, all right, cool. So where do you want?

Ali Gilbert: 48:12

people to find you, Because this is this been a great conversation on people to reach out. Everything I do is on Instagram. So on Instagram at the Allie Gilbert, a live slide in the DMS and you know just my entire page is all videos on coaching, TRT, all that stuff.

Philip Pape: 48:27

So for sure, check out at the Allie Gilbert super responsive. She was responsive and coming on to this show and I hope everybody learned a lot from this conversation. It was awesome chatting with you today, Allie, Thank you for having me.

Why Women Over 50 NEED To Lift Heavy Weights in Menopause | Ep 252

Surprise... it's our first dramatized mythbusting story! Thanks listeners for voting on this special format for today's episode.

If you're a woman over 50 who's been told to stick to light weights, bodyweight, or resistance bands, you're being robbed of massive strength potential as you age.

Learn how the story of Marlene, a retired accountant turned powerhouse, reveals three dangerous myths about menopause and strength training that are literally making women weaker. Like thousands of women, she discovered that heavy lifting isn't just safe after menopause... it's essential.

Whether you're already lifting or just thinking about starting, understanding these myths will transform how you approach fitness forever.

→ Join our FREE Wits & Weights Facebook group

Main Takeaways:

• Why light weights and high reps aren't enough for post-menopausal women

• How proper strength training can reverse THIS condition in women over 50

• Surprising evidence showing how fast women over 50 can gain strength compared to younger women

• Why avoiding heavy weights is more dangerous than lifting them

Related Episodes:

• Why Women Get Bigger, Leaner, and Sexier But Not "Bulky" From Lifting Heavy Weights

• The New Over 50 Roadmap to Lifelong Strength, Health, Muscle, and Longevity

• Your Very First Cut (Lose 10-30 Pounds of Fat)

Menopause and Heavy Lifting: Shattering 3 Dangerous Myths About Women's Strength After 50

As a coach who works with women in their 40s, 50s, and beyond, I keep hearing the same well-meaning but misguided advice: "Be careful with weights at your age." This advice isn't just wrong – it's actively harmful. Let's break down why, using both science and real-world experience.

The Costly Price of "Playing it Safe"

When women enter menopause, they're often steered toward lighter weights and "safer" exercises. But here's the reality: this approach can actually accelerate muscle loss, decrease bone density, and make you weaker when you need strength the most.

After age 30, women lose about 3-8% of their muscle mass per decade. This accelerates after menopause to as much as 10% per decade. But here's what most people miss: this isn't inevitable. It's largely the result of not training with sufficient intensity.

3 Dangerous Myths About Menopause and Strength Training

Myth #1: "Heavy Weights Are Dangerous After Menopause"

This myth stems from viewing women's bodies as somehow fragile or delicate, especially after menopause. The science shows the opposite:

• Post-menopausal women can safely handle the same relative training intensities as younger women

• A 2021 study of women lifting at 75-85% of their one-rep max showed zero injuries and significant strength gains

• Heavy resistance training can actually reverse bone loss

Myth #2: "Light Weights and High Reps Are Safer and More Effective"

This is the "pink dumbbells" myth. Here's why it fails:

• After menopause, women need MORE stimulus, not less, to maintain muscle

• Light weights don't provide enough mechanical tension for meaningful adaptation

• Protein synthesis efficiency decreases, requiring stronger training stimuli

Myth #3: "Getting Weaker Is Just Part of Aging"

This might be the most dangerous myth of all. The research is crystal clear:

• Muscle loss rate is dramatically influenced by how you train

• Women can gain strength at rates comparable to younger adults when training properly

• Proper strength training can improve bone density at any age

The Solution: A Better Approach to Strength After 50

Focus on Compound Movements

• Squats

• Deadlifts

• Bench and overhead presses

• Rows

Train with Purpose

1. Use weights that challenge you in the 4-15 rep range

2. Train 3-5 times per week with rest days between sessions

3. Progressive overload is crucial

4. Focus on form first, then gradually increase intensity

5. Maintain adequate protein intake (about 1g per pound of target body weight)

The Surprising Truth About Strength Gains

Here's something remarkable: post-menopausal women can gain strength at rates comparable to younger women when training properly. This isn't opinion – it's documented in multiple studies showing women in their 50s and 60s achieving similar relative strength gains to women in their 20s and 30s.

Taking Action

Your body isn't fragile. It's not weak. It's not past its prime. It's waiting for the right stimulus to show you just how strong you can be. The biggest risk isn't from lifting heavy weights – it's from not lifting them at all.

Ready to get started? Download my free Menopause Fat Loss Over 40 Guide.

📲 Send me a text message!

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Transcript

Philip Pape: 0:01

I want you to pay close attention to this story. You're going to hear advice that sounds reasonable, professional, even caring, but hidden within it are three dangerous myths about menopause and lifting weights, Myths that are literally stealing women's strength, health and independence. These myths are so common, so accepted, that most people, even fitness professionals, never question them. Today we're not just going to question them, we are going to shatter them with science. As you listen to Marlene's journey, see if you can spot these myths, Because once you recognize them, you'll never look at menopause and strength training the same way again. Welcome to Wits and Weights, the show that blends evidence and engineering to help you build smart, efficient systems to achieve your dream physique. I'm your host, Philip Pape, and today's story, the first of its kind we are doing a dramatized, myth-busting story, was inspired by a text message from a listener in Edmonton, Alberta, up in Canada, but it could be the story of millions of women facing the same challenge. Listen carefully, because the myths you'll hear aren't just wrong. They're actively harmful, and spotting them could change everything about how you approach strength training after 50. And as I go through the story, I really want you to pay attention to the myths and try to spot them yourself. And then I'm going to do a breakdown at the end of the story.

Philip Pape: 1:32

It's January 1st, New Year's, 6 am. Marlene stands in front of Elevation Fitness, gripping her coffee like a lifeline. At 54, the retired accountant has spent her entire career analyzing numbers, finding patterns, solving problems. But the figures she's seen lately don't add up Declining bone density, creeping weight gain, loss of strength. Even her posture, once perfect from years of track and field in her youth, is starting to slouch. Time to solve this equation, she mutters, is starting to slouch. Time to solve this equation, she mutters, pushing open the door. 25 years of working with spreadsheets taught her one thing when the numbers go wrong, you have to take action. The gym's window displays the usual New Year's promises Transform your body, Get fit, Feel strong. But there's also a sign that catches her analytical eye Silver fitness specialist, safe training for seniors. Inside, everything gleams with newness.

Philip Pape: 2:29

The front desk staff are impossibly cheerful for this hour and Mike, the trainer doing her consultation, seems to know exactly what she needs. I used to run track, Marlene tells him, watching younger members grunt under heavy barbells in the distance. High school record in the 400 meters. Now I can barely climb stairs without getting winded. I need to get strong again. Mike's smile is reassuring.

Philip Pape: 2:52

Professional, Of course, but at our age we have to be smart about this, especially with menopause. We see it all the time. Women come in wanting to lift heavy, but that's just asking for injury. He leads her to a rack of colorful resistance bands and tiny dumbbells. This is where we'll start Nice and safe, Low impact. The key is high reps with very light weights. Heavy lifting is for the young folks. We'll focus on what works for women your age. Marlene nods, running the numbers in her head. The logic seems sound. After all, he's the expert.

Philip Pape: 3:22

Three months pass. Marlene tracks everything in her training journal Weights, reps, measurements just like she used to track business expenses. The numbers don't lie. After 12 weeks of resistance bands and two-pound dumbbells, her strength hasn't improved, Her bone density numbers are still declining and her posture even worse. One morning, everything changes.

Philip Pape: 3:43

Marlene arrives early, planning to review her progress charts before her usual session. The gym is quiet, except for the rhythmic sound of heavy weight hitting the floor. Her accountant's curiosity gets the better of her. What's making that sound? Peering around the corner to the weight room, she sees a woman she'd noticed before but never spoken to Silver hair and a neat French braid, probably early 60s, setting up for another deadlift. The bar is loaded with what looks like serious weight. Each rep is controlled powerful. Between sets she catches Marlene watching and smiles. Let me guess they gave you the seniors program speech? No-transcript.

Philip Pape: 4:21

Her name is Stephanie, former physical therapist turned strength coach at 62. She left her PT practice after growing frustrated with seeing too many women limited by overcautious advice. 20 years in physical therapy taught me one thing, Stephanie says, chalking her hands for another set we're far more capable than most people think, especially after menopause. Marlene glances at her resistance bands, then back at Stephanie. The accountant in her needs more data. But what about injury risk Safety? Stephanie's laugh is warm but determined. You're an accountant, right? Let's talk numbers. When I started lifting heavy at 55, my doctor said I was crazy. Seven years later, my bone density is higher than it was at 45. My functional strength test put me in the top percentile for women in their 30s. She adds more plates to the bar. Want to know what's really risky? Getting weaker every year because someone told you you're too fragile to build strength that's what's dangerous.

Philip Pape: 5:18

Later that morning Marlene cancels her session with Mike. She has research to do. Numbers don't lie, and Stephanie's numbers tell a compelling story. All right, so that's my attempt at a little bit of a dramatic story, and what I wanna do now is break down the three myths that we just heard in Marlene's story, because each one sounds reasonable on the surface. Each one gets repeated all the time In the industry. I hear it all the time and I get questions about it all the time, and each one is completely wrong. So myth number one let me know if you got this Heavy weights are dangerous for postmenopausal women.

Philip Pape: 5:53

Now you could even change this to heavy weights are dangerous, period as the myth. But this is the myth that the trainer Mike used to steer Marlene away from the weight room, and it's based on an outdated view of women's bodies as somehow fragile or delicate, especially after menopause or really in general folks as they get older. And here's what the science actually shows Postmenopausal women, of course they don't just tolerate heavy resistance training, they actually thrive on it, just like all humans thrive on loading up our skeletal muscular system. And studies show that women in their 50s, 60s and beyond can safely handle the same relative training intensities as younger women. And I'm going to put some numbers to this. There's a 2021 study that followed postmenopausal women doing heavy compound lifts at 75 to 85% of their one rep max. So we're talking pretty heavy weights and the results zero injuries, significant gains in strength and improved bone density. Now Stephanie, the woman that Marlene met in the weight room, is the perfect example of what is completely possible. She's not an outlier. She's just doing what the human body is designed to do at any age, and that is to adapt to adapt to progressive overload.

Philip Pape: 7:05

So myth number one that heavy weights are dangerous, busted. Myth number two, that light weights and high reps are safer and more effective Now, this was the recommendation by the trainer. The tiny pink dumbbells, the endless reps, maybe using machines, maybe doing body weight exercises, and not that. None of those things are effective for a short period, but it's for a very short period before you outgrow them and need more load, Because the problem is it's not enough stimulus to create meaningful change over time, which is really what you need as you're getting older. Now remember how Marlene followed this advice for three months. She didn't have any results.

Philip Pape: 7:42

And, granted, if you've been completely sedentary your whole life and then you do something, you're probably going to feel a little fitter, a little more active, maybe even a little stronger, but it's going to plateau very quickly. And that's really the point I'm trying to make. And there's a reason for that because, you know, as we age and after menopause, especially for women, women need more stimulus, not less, to maintain and build muscle. And that's for a few reasons. First is the estrogen level that drops and it actually makes it harder to maintain muscle mass, just naturally, if you don't do anything about it. The second is that protein synthesis efficiency goes down right, which is also why I recommend women eat more protein the older they get. And then, number three, your metabolic rate is naturally declining and just to be clear on that, it's only declining primarily because of your loss of muscle mass and your worsening body composition. That's it, Not because of menopause, hormones or anything else Now I mean, other than the estrogen levels drop, which make it harder to maintain muscle mass. But if you, that doesn't mean you can't. As long as you focus on your body composition, these things don't have to happen. And lighter weights you know the circuit machines in the gym where you're just hitting the same weight on the stack week after week forever. That's not going to provide you the stimulus to overcome these changes. It's like trying to fill a bucket with a dropper right when what you need is a hose, just to put an analogy on it.

Philip Pape: 9:01

And then the third myth in the story is that getting weaker is just part of aging and menopause, and I really I hate this one. I have to be honest, and you know, men say the same thing. Right, it's probably the most dangerous myth of all the idea that it's inevitable you're going to lose strength and muscle. It is not aging that makes us weak, it is the lack of using our bodies and using our strength that makes us weak, and the research is crystal clear on this. The rate of muscle loss during and after menopause is dramatically influenced by whether and how you train. That's it, Strength training. Women who actually engage in strength training can maintain and gain new muscle mass. They can increase their bone density. They have improved metabolic health. They have improved functional strength right, and I mean functional in a more colloquial sense, not giving it any sort of special meaning just to be able to do things in the world.

Philip Pape: 9:57

Now you remember how Stephanie mentioned that her bone scan, you know, shocking her doctor afterward after it went up, and that's because heavy resistance training actually can reverse bone loss. And I've heard many stories like this, where you go to the doctor and like, oh my goodness, what are you doing? I'd never seen this before. The bone density is actually going up. That is how few people are actually lifting weights. I mean, it's very sad, but it's also very empowering for you when you know that that's the thing that's going to work. So what should Marlene and you do instead? Here's the action plan Number one focus on compound movements in the gym when you train, you know, two or three days a week, ideally three, maybe even four, using squats, deadlifts, pressing rows.

Philip Pape: 10:37

Okay, and you can reach out to me. I've got all sorts of programs that I can recommend. I'm not going to charge you for it. I'm going to give you a free resource. If you need it, Reach out for a. That can be in a wide rep range, all right, Anywhere from three or four reps all the way to 15 to 20 reps. It's really gonna depend on the lift and on the programming and whether you're actually pushing hard, where you're a few reps shy of failure, and what I find is that going up for 20 or 25 reps and keeping the weight really light doesn't usually do that, because people tend to just stop before they get to that point. So that's another reason I like a heavier rep range, especially for women, especially post-menopause.

Philip Pape: 11:19

Number three progressive overload is the critical piece here. We have to increase your work over time. Your work, meaning your sets, reps, load over time. All right, Primarily the weight. That's the most basic variable to change for most people, but then eventually it gets a little more nuanced than that. Number four is again, training enough with enough frequency. So I'm going to say three times a week If you're, let's say, in your seventies or eighties and you're listening to this, and if you never trained before, I would start with one or two and then add to that and you have recovery in between your sessions. And then, number five, you've got to support your training with plenty of protein and calories, and so protein is going to be somewhere around 0.7 to 1 gram per pound of your target body weight. But then having enough calories is important as well, and that's a whole separate topic.

Philip Pape: 12:06

When it comes to nutrition, here's something else that the research has revealed which I think is really amazing, and it validates what Stephanie discovered in the story. Post-menopausal women can gain strength and muscle at the same rate as younger women when training properly. And I'll add the shock value. I'll make the shock value even higher at the same rate as men. So don't think that you have any disadvantage. Now, yes, women start with less muscle mass. They have more body fat when they're younger, so the actual quantity of muscle might be different, but who cares? The rate that you can gain is the same, right, and this isn't just an opinion or conjecture. This is documented again in many studies that show women in their 50s and 60s achieving similar relative strength gains to women in their 20s and 30s when following proper resistance training programs. I mean, think about that for a moment. Right, the very time when most women are being told to back off from training or to just act. Your age or this is inevitable is actually when they can make incredible progress, not despite their age, but regardless of it. Right, Like it doesn't factor in.

Philip Pape: 13:14

So let's end by returning to Marlene's story. Remember how it began standing outside that gym on New Year's Eve I mean on New Year's day, right, New Year's resolution clutching her coffee and her spreadsheets, trying to solve the equation of aging. And this is actually the exact story of so many clients who I work with who eventually find their way to the weight room, hopefully sooner than later, with who eventually find their way to the weight room, hopefully sooner than later, and from day one. If you reach out to me for a rapid fitness assessment or need help with coaching, we are not going to avoid the weight room. We are going to get you on a proper training program if you're not doing it already, or we're going to make adjustments to what you're doing to make sure it's effective.

Philip Pape: 13:50

That is number one for me when it comes to having a good nutrition plan. You're like what Nutrition? That is number one for me. When it comes to having a good nutrition plan, You're like what Nutrition? Yes, Number one for me in having a good nutrition plan is that you're training, training properly, right, that you're deadlifting, that you're squatting, that you're doing all these wonderful things. Now, if you're not interested in that, that's your choice. But the truth is your body is not fragile, it's not weak, it's not past its prime. It's waiting for the right stimulus to show just how strong you can be.

Philip Pape: 14:18

So today's episode resonated with you and you want to talk to other people, like Marlene in the story, who are looking to get stronger regardless of their age. Get strong at any age. They want to know what to do. They want to inspire each other. Join our Facebook group. It's totally free. Go to Facebook and just search Wits and Weights or click the link in the show notes. That is also where I often test out some of these ideas, like today's dramatized, myth-busting story. Again, just click the link in the show notes or go to Facebook and search Wits and Weights and join our group and you'll hear about episodes like this. But you can also interact with others and we do a bi-weekly live Q&A where you could have your questions answered. All sorts of other fun stuff. Until next time, keep using your wits lifting those weights and remember strength has nothing to do with age. It's about smart training and consistency. This is Philip Pape and you've been listening to Wits and Weights. I'll talk to you next time.

Counting Calories for Weight Loss vs. Tracking What Matters for Fat Loss | Ep 251

Join Wits & Weights Physique University and get courses, coaching, community, and live masterclasses to build a sustainable system for your ideal physique (fat loss, muscle building, and metabolism)! Just $67 bi-weekly. Cancel anytime.

–

Have you been stuck in a loop of counting calories, tracking points, or relying on prepackaged diet plans, only to feel dissatisfied with your results? What if the numbers you’re obsessing over are holding you back? Could focusing on different metrics unlock the physique you’ve always wanted?

Philip (@witsandweights) discusses the misconceptions around weight loss and fat loss. He explains why focusing purely on calories or the scale often leads to frustration and why body composition—not weight—is the real goal. Philip breaks down the flawed logic behind popular diet plans and offers a sustainable, intelligent approach to tracking progress that prioritizes muscle, strength, and longevity.

Learn how to break free from rigid tracking systems and build a sustainable approach that transforms not just your body but your entire mindset.

Today, you’ll learn all about:

1:11 Why weight loss programs miss the mark
3:03 The truth about numbers-based programs
6:24 Understanding what actually changes your body
10:15 The better way to track progress
16:33 Building your new tracking system
20:20 Developing intuitive habits for long-term success
22:24 Wits and Weights Physique University: A system for real progress
23:47 Outro

Related Episodes:

• Fat Loss vs. Weight Loss

• Why Weight Loss Always Fails (But Don't Ditch the Scale Yet)

Why the Scale Lies About Fat Loss and How to Track What Really Matters

If you’ve ever hit a milestone on the scale only to feel disappointed when you look in the mirror, you’re not alone. Weight loss and fat loss are not the same thing, yet most diet programs fixate on the scale, missing the bigger picture of true body composition changes.

This is where most tracking systems, whether it’s calories, points, or prepackaged meal plans, fall short. They oversimplify the process, treating your body like a math equation—calories in, calories out—without considering the complex adaptations that drive real fat loss.

In this article, we’ll break down why focusing solely on numbers can sabotage your progress and how to shift your attention to what truly drives a leaner, stronger physique.

Why Weight Loss ≠ Fat Loss

At its core, weight loss simply means losing mass. That mass could come from fat, but it could also come from muscle, water, or even bone density. Most popular programs and tracking apps don’t differentiate between these sources, leading many people to lose muscle and end up “skinny fat”—lighter on the scale but still unhappy with their appearance.

This approach also slows down your metabolism, as muscle is a metabolically active tissue. The result? A vicious cycle of losing and regaining weight without achieving the physique or health improvements you’re after.

What Actually Drives Fat Loss

To achieve a leaner body and maintain your results, you need to focus on preserving or building muscle while reducing fat. This requires a comprehensive approach that goes beyond calorie counting:

1. Performance in the Gym

Tracking your strength and performance in the gym is the most reliable way to ensure you’re preserving muscle during fat loss. Progress in the gym—whether it’s lifting heavier weights, improving form, or increasing endurance—signals that your body is holding onto or building muscle.

Key Metrics to Track:

• Strength progression (weight lifted)

• Volume (total work performed)

• Energy levels and recovery

2. Body Composition Changes

Instead of obsessing over the scale, track other indicators of fat loss that provide a clearer picture of your progress.

Key Metrics to Track:

• Waist, hip, and arm measurements

• Progress photos

• Clothing fit

3. Biofeedback

Your body provides valuable signals about whether your approach is sustainable. These include:

• Energy levels throughout the day

• Hunger and appetite

• Sleep quality

• Recovery from workouts

• Digestion

Tracking biofeedback allows you to adjust your strategy to ensure it’s both effective and sustainable.

A Smarter Approach to Tracking

Rigid tracking methods, like exact calorie or macro targets, often create unnecessary stress and reduce adherence. Instead, adopt flexible ranges and minimums that allow for real-life variability while staying aligned with your goals.

Prioritize Protein

Anchor your nutrition around protein, with a target of 0.7 to 1.0 grams per pound of body weight. This range supports muscle maintenance and growth, even during a calorie deficit.

Flexible Fat and Carb Ranges

Allow fats and carbs to fluctuate based on your energy needs, training demands, and preferences. This creates a sustainable approach that’s adaptable to social events, hunger cues, and performance goals.

Build a Feedback Loop

A truly effective tracking system incorporates multiple data points:

1. Gym performance logs

2. Trend weight (not daily fluctuations)

3. Measurements and photos

4. Biofeedback trends

By evaluating these together, you can identify what’s working and adjust as needed without relying on arbitrary, one-dimensional metrics.

Real Progress Is More Than Numbers

The goal of tracking isn’t to restrict—it’s to empower. When you focus on the metrics that matter, you gain a deeper understanding of your body’s responses. Over time, this builds intuition and confidence, allowing you to sustain your results without feeling confined by rigid rules.

If this resonates with you, consider joining Wits and Weights Physique University, where we help you create sustainable systems to transform your body composition without the mental burden of chasing perfect numbers.

📲 Send me a text message!

👩‍💻 Book a FREE 15-Minute Rapid Nutrition Assessment

🎓 Join Wits & Weights Physique University

👥 Join our Facebook community for live Q&As & support

✉️ Join the FREE email list with insider strategies and bonus content!

📱 Try MacroFactor for free with code WITSANDWEIGHTS. The only food logging app that adjusts to your metabolism!

🏋️‍♀️ Download Boostcamp for free and access 70+ evidence-based workout programs

🩷 Love the podcast? Leave a 5-star review or share on social and tag @witsandweights

📞 Send a Q&A voicemail

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Transcript

Philip Pape: 0:01

If you've ever followed Weight Watchers, counted points, used prepackaged meal programs like Optivia, or obsessed over hitting exact calorie targets in MyFitnessPal, yet you're still not happy with how your body looks and feels. This episode is going to change everything. The problem isn't your dedication to tracking. It's that you're tracking the wrong things. Today, we're exposing why fixating on precise numbers whether they're calories points or macros is actually holding you back from the lean, strong physique you want. You'll discover why all these programs miss the bigger picture of true fat loss and learn exactly what to measure instead for lasting results. So, whether you're currently counting every calorie or just tired of jumping from one tracking system to another, get ready to break free from the numbers game and finally start seeing real changes in your body. Welcome to Wits and Weights, the podcast that blends evidence and engineering to help you build smart, efficient systems to achieve your dream physique. I'm your host, philip Pape, and today we are tackling a fundamental problem that affects nearly everyone trying to improve their body composition the difference between weight loss and actual fat loss, and why most tracking methods completely miss the mark and I see this all the time. People who've spent months or years religiously following different programs, tracking everything, weighing portions to the gram, celebrating when they hit their targets, and I think they're losing the bigger picture. They're losing weight, yes, according to the scale, but they're not getting lean, they're not getting the defined physique that they're after, and instead they're ending up with what we often call skinny fat right, smaller on the scale, but still unhappy with how they look and feel. And today we're going to break down exactly why this happens and what to do instead. And you know I am a numbers guy. So, even though I am sounding like I'm saying not to be precise and not to track, you're going to understand the subtle differences that I'm getting into today and why this tool can be helpful. Before we dive into that, I do want to tell you about something that could transform your approach to fat loss and give you some support, because I'm going to be talking about some of the cookie cutter programs today that focus on hitting arbitrary numbers but ignore what actually matters, and it is rife in the fitness industry, in the weight loss industry, and that's why I'm so strongly opinionated about it. But I do have something that can work for you, and it's called Wits and Weights Physique University. It's my semi-private group coaching program where we cut through all of that. We do use tracking, but we focus on tracking what truly drives fat loss results, and it's just a tiny piece of it. More importantly is the proven methodology, the expert guidance and support through a community and also from me as a coach, to help you achieve the physique you want the leanness, the look, the feel, the energy, all of those things, and not just pursuing a weight on the scale. So if you want to learn about joining us, just go to witsandweightscom, slash physique, and you can see all the details there.

Philip Pape: 2:57

But with that I just want to get back to today's episode and talk about the numbers game, the weight loss versus fat loss, all of it, and I want to understand why focusing purely on numbers okay, it could be calories, it could be points like Weight Watchers, it could be pre-portioned meals, it could be anything often leads to frustration, because sometimes people come to me and they haven't tracked anything. That's a different situation. I'm talking about the situation where you have tracked lots of things. Maybe you're very data-driven, maybe you're very numbers-driven, maybe you've been through different programs and somehow it's still not working, or you feel like it doesn't work for you and you feel like, huh, I must be broken or something's wrong with me.

Philip Pape: 3:37

And the common theme throughout these programs is that they promise simplicity. Right, hit these targets and you'll lose weight. That's the premise of most of them. Let's be honest, and technically they're not wrong. If you eat fewer calories than you burn, you will lose weight. But what they don't tell you is that not all weight loss is fat loss. Now, I've talked about this several times on the show. If you're new to the show, definitely listen up, because this could be the thing that changes your perspective on all of this and unlocks a new phase of growth for you. If you had heard it before, I'm going to give you a different perspective today. Now think about it.

Philip Pape: 4:11

When you lose weight, right, your body can pull from multiple sources. It can pull from fat that's an energy storage source, but it can also pull from muscle tissue, water, bone density in some cases, and if you're only focused on seeing the number on the scale go down while you are doing the program, eating prepackaged meals, hitting arbitrary points, even just counting calories you have no control over where that weight comes from. And this is why so many people end up successfully losing weight according to their program or tracking app. But then they feel disappointed when they look in the mirror and we know that 95% of those people are going to regain the weight anyway. And so maybe it's not about the weight, because a lot of coaches try to sell you on sustaining the weight loss.

Philip Pape: 4:54

But I don't think it's about the weight at all, because most of these people and you've probably been there, I have as well, through all the diets I tried in the past have lost muscle along with fat, leaving you with what seems like the same shape, just smaller. An extreme of this is if you look at somebody who's in their 70s or 80s, who's been fairly sedentary their whole life, and they might have carried the same scale weight for the last 40 years, but they just seem tremendously weaker. It's because, despite being the same weight, most of their body composition has become fat rather than muscle, and it doesn't seem possible when you see how frail and thin they look. But that's how bad it is, in that most of that mass that they do carry is fat. Even though they're thin, that means they have zero muscle. You know, very little muscle.

Philip Pape: 5:37

So it's very important from a longevity and from a health perspective that we care about this stuff not just about our physique, and so people who've lost muscle along with fat because they're dieting, they're not strength training, they're not doing the things, their metabolism has also slowed down because they've lost that metabolically active tissue. They're probably often in a state of underfeeding and dieting and, worst of all, they're usually mentally exhausted from the constant pressure of doing this program, whatever it is, hitting the targets relentlessly, going after whatever it is and yet still not getting the result. You know how frustrating that is. You know how it makes you feel insane. It makes you feel like you're going insane, like this just doesn't work for me, when in reality it's. The thing you're trying to do is just the wrong thing for you. That's the empowering piece that I want to bring with you today.

Philip Pape: 6:24

All right, so that's what happens, but now let's talk about what actually does change your body, because we want to flip it, to be positive. What do we do about this? So where most tracking programs, most diet and weight loss programs get it wrong is they treat your body like a simple math equation calories in, calories out, and, while I am 100% on board with physics and energy balance, that is the tiniest piece of the equation. Yeah, it's part of it, but it's the tiniest piece. And we're not even talking about obesity or appetite or willpower, any of that stuff. We're literally just talking about the fact that, yes, your body will release some form of energy from somewhere if it doesn't have as many calories coming in as going out has. Has nothing to do with carbs, it has nothing to do with anything else. Points earned, points spent. Same thing like the Weight Watchers paradigm.

Philip Pape: 7:11

But your body is far more sophisticated than that. We know that it is constantly adapting. It responds to everything you do. It responds not just to what you eat, but how you train, how you sleep, how you manage stress dozens of other factors. So let's talk about what really drives changes in your physique when you're trying to get leaner and stronger. That's the look we're going for, and not only the look, but the performance we're going for. We're not just trying to make the scale go down. You're trying to preserve or build metabolically active muscle tissue while reducing body fat. It sounds simple, but I realize it's not as simple as it sounds. This is why two people can weigh exactly the same but look completely different. It's not about the number on the scale, it's about body composition. And if you don't believe me, look at any very fit athlete and find out their body weight and you will see that it is surprisingly higher than you thought because they're carrying all this extra lean tissue.

Philip Pape: 8:03

I'm often going through the mental exercise with potential clients or clients and it's very confusing when I say look, you can gain weight to build muscle. So let's say you gain 10 pounds and six of that is muscle, and then you can lose four pounds of fat. Well, guess what? The four pounds of fat you gained among those 10, you've now lost it. You're now six pounds heavier, but all six pounds of that is muscle. Do the math your body fat percentage just went down and you got leaner at a heavier scale. Weight Mind blown right. It's really hard for people to grasp that. It's also why I often encourage a lot of people to gain weight rather than try to lose weight, but do it in a structured program to build muscle.

Philip Pape: 8:45

Anyway, this is where the traditional programs and tracking and all that fall way short, because they are very one-dimensional. They don't account for macros, sometimes protein intake, which is crucial for maintaining muscle. They don't consider at all the quality of your training, and I am a strength training. First type of nutrition coach. If you're gonna work with me, you are absolutely gonna be training. I'm gonna help you figure out what works for you, make adjustments to your program heck, even write you a program, if I have to, okay, and give you feedback on that, because that, to me, is the foundation of then the right nutrition to support it. And when you're doing that, it signals your body to preserve muscle tissue even in a calorie deficit and potentially build new muscle tissue even in a calorie deficit, depending on how new you are to the training, and definitely build muscle in a calorie surplus or at maintenance. These programs the typical tracking do not. They certainly do not account for how your body adapts over time, where you have metabolic adaptation if you're overly aggressive with your restrictions.

Philip Pape: 9:45

So now think of the GLP-1 weight loss drugs like Ozempic, manjaro and all those which sometimes cause a rapid rate loss or going on keto and all of a sudden you lose 40 pounds in a month. That itself can be highly detrimental and people aren't thinking of that. They're like, okay, great, I lost a bunch of weight. Well, you just lost a bunch of muscle too, and I'm sure it doesn't feel too great either. Optivea, all these programs do that. That's how your body changes and why these subtle differences matter.

Philip Pape: 10:15

Now I want to talk about a better way to track. So if we're not obsessing over just hitting calories or just counting points or just eating these prepackaged foods or just doing this, you know the GLP-1, or whatever just eating these prepackaged foods or just doing this, you know the GLP-1, or whatever what should we care about? What should we track? What do we care about? What do we not care about? And so I want to think of this as like a hierarchy of meaningful progress indicators. Okay, like a hierarchy.

Philip Pape: 10:44

So first, first and foremost, in my opinion, is tracking our performance in the gym, and the reason I went through my notes and I'm like should I put that first? Should I put tracking food first? No, it's definitely our performance in the gym. This is the foundation of everything. I've had calls. I do these rapid nutrition assessments. They're free, 15 minutes. You can sign up for one in the show notes and we'll just have a chat about hey, what should you be doing going forward? It's not a sales pitch at all. I do these calls all the time and every now and then someone comes on and says well, I want to fix my nutrition. I don't care about training right now and I would encourage them to flip that around and say why don't we care about training and not nutrition? Because the nutrition is going to follow the training Meaning. Once you're training like an athlete, once you're building muscle and strength, you're going to want to eat better to support that period. It makes it so much easier. It makes fat loss easier. But if you only focus on nutrition and don't do training, you're not holding on or building muscle and you're missing the biggest piece of the equation for body composition.

Philip Pape: 11:37

So, number one, track your performance in the gym. Are you maintaining or increasing your strength right? Can you complete your movements with good form? Do you have the energy to support your training, both before and after your workouts, and all the biofeedback that comes with that, the soreness, the recovery and so on, the sleep, the food it all follows that. So first we need to understand are we performing well? Are we going to the gym consistently, three, four, five days a week, whatever program you're on? Are you progressing in intensity, load weight on the bar. Are you progressing in volume? Your overall volume has to be going up. Your work, I should say, has to be going up to show express that you are gaining strength and performance. Improving performance is one of the best indicators that you're preserving muscle mass while losing fat as well. Second, so number one performance in the gym.

Philip Pape: 12:26

Number two we want to look at physical changes beyond the scale. Now, I do want to include the scale in there, but if you only think of the scale and here's the ironic thing all my clients weigh themselves every day and all my clients at some point realize that the scale weight isn't that important. Yes, well, we need scale weight to get trend weight. We need trend weight to understand are we gaining or losing fat and or muscle? But beyond that, what we really care about is the end result to our body from doing that. We care about how our clothes are fitting, how our measurements are changing, and are they changing in the right places for what we want, right, our waist, our hips, our glutes, our chest, our arms, wherever it makes sense, up and down.

Philip Pape: 13:05

What do your progress photos show? If you're working with a coach like me, I will help objectively observe these. No judgment, right Just to see? Oh, okay, you have some loose skin around your abdomen because you used to be heavier and I know that's a stubborn. You know your midsection is a stubborn part for you. How do we deal with that? Is it training? Is it the nutrition? Is it more fat loss? What is it right? And so all of these things, these aspects of your physical changes beyond the scale visual and tangible indicators tell a much more accurate story than the scale, and sometimes you get to a point where you're like I don't really care about what the scale says. I will look at it from a perspective of adjusting my calories, but beyond that I don't really care.

Philip Pape: 13:46

Third, we want to pay attention to how you feel, and I don't mean necessarily subjectively, although it starts with you assessing it for yourself. It's an objective measure of your biofeedback how is your energy throughout the day? And you're comparing it over time. So, even though it's subjective in the moment, your subjective assessment over time creates a trend how is your hunger and appetite? Are you recovering well from workouts? How is your digestion right? That could be an indication of things like fiber. How is your sleep, and so on. Even, how is your libido? These factors, they indicate whether your approach is sustainable and whether your body's in a good place to do what you're trying to do, and for many people that's going into a fat loss phase while maintaining muscle.

Philip Pape: 14:31

I had a client call just yesterday, someone she is very good at following the plan. She's very consistent, and her question to me was is it okay if we potentially lower calories further? Her calories are already what I would consider rather low, they're in the low thousands. But she's also petite, she's like around 110, 120 pounds and her biofeedback looked fantastic, meaning she's getting plenty of sleep and recovery, her lifts are going up and she has little to no hunger. She's not on weight loss drugs or anything, she's just a smaller person with low metabolism who doesn't need to eat a lot and she feels that way, and so for her it actually might be sustainable to drop the calories by another, say, 100 calories per day for the week right. But for someone else who's ravenous, who's miserable, that biofeedback is telling me it's not sustainable. So I don't care if the deficit is what you quote unquote need to lose a certain rate of fat it's not sustainable. So let's face that reality together, using that data Super important for making it work long-term and actually being successful and actually sustaining it.

Shonetta: 15:39

Hi, my name is Sharnetta and I want to give a big shout out to Philip of Wits and Weights. I discovered his podcast just a few short months ago, but I quickly realized how valuable his content is. With all the many fitness and nutrition influencers out in the world today, I often suffer from information overload, but Philip poses careful questions to his guests that get to the meat of the subject matter, while most everyone offers free guides to this, and that what I found most unique about Philip is his live training and weekly Q&A sessions. If I can't make it live, I can always catch the replay. I am very grateful to find someone I feel is so passionate and genuine to his purpose, while also being hands-on within the Wits and Weights online community. He is truly only a click away. Thanks, philip, for all you do.

Philip Pape: 16:24

All right. So we put all this together. Now we want to build your new tracking system. After all, this podcast is all about creating a system to develop your physique. So how do we get away from what I call rigid number tracking meaning you're trying to hit these arbitrary exact numbers because the program says so to something that's more effective, right? Instead of hitting exact calorie targets which, in my early days as a coach and tracking macros, I was that rigid about it. And even tracking macros, even though we call it if it fits your macros or flexible dieting, can itself be inflexible if it's too rigid for you, and so we want to focus on ranges and minimums. I learned this both through experience and coaching, but also from guys like Dr Eric Helms, alan Aragon, dr Bill Campbell. All of these guys and they've been on the show had that common theme of let's make the tracking itself have a level of flexibility that's sustainable, and we think of it like guardrails, right? Rather than a tightrope walk. It's like guardrails or bumpers on the bowling alley, right? Those know those little bumpers for kids or even adults who maybe aren't that great at bowling, and so think of it as guardrails, and we want to anchor it from a food perspective, we're going to anchor it with protein. Right Hitting a minimum for protein is essential for preserving and building muscle.

Philip Pape: 17:40

The range for protein is between 0.7 to one gram per pound of body weight, and that 0.7 is very important because, yes, it's a minimum, but it's also an achievable minimum. If the one gram sounds like too much, so I know you might have heard lots of podcasts and experts say one gram per pound, you actually do not need that. 0.7 is not only enough, but what the literature is showing us more than enough as a starting point or even long-term, other than some corner cases, some unique cases. So aim for a minimum target of that 0.7. If you want to go above that, fine, right. That's what we're talking about with flexibility Beyond that.

Philip Pape: 18:15

We then create flexible ranges for fats and carbs that support your training and your energy needs, right? Neither fats nor carbs are good or bad. They provide different things. They provide things that help with hunger. They provide fiber. They provide energy for your hormones. Carbs, of course. I've gone on and on about how great carbs are for lifters in terms of recovery and performance, as well as protecting muscle tissue, and then having this flexibility gives you then plenty of room to adjust, based on hunger, based on social events, even how you're feeling on a given day. It can float up or down with lots of tolerance, and you can still make progress right.

Philip Pape: 18:55

And what makes this approach powerful is we're not just tracking food right, we're not just tracking calories. We're creating a complete feedback loop. Every week we look at the totality of these things together and how they feed back into the behaviors and choices you're making. Your average trend weight, not the daily fluctuations, your gym performance over time. What is your log showing in totality, not just day to day, but even over the weeks and months, with your blocks, your mesocycles, whatever phrases you want to call them? Are they all working together? Your progress photos, your measurements, your energy levels, recovery, all your biofeedback and then, just generally, how sustainable does this whole approach feel right now?

Philip Pape: 19:36

It might have worked for you for the last two months and all of a sudden, something feels like a wall. It feels like you're sticking. Okay, it may be time to reevaluate the plan. It's okay to and so this is a comprehensive, nuanced, intelligent view that tells us what's working and what needs adjustment. No more guessing on whether you're making progress just because you hit an arbitrary target or the point of the guardrails, but it's not so precise that you obsess about it to the point where it's not only not necessary, it actually makes the process unsustainable, all right. The last thing I want to mention and this is what most people never realize about tracking progress is that it is not about restriction, like the whole point of tracking isn't to say here are all the things I can't do and here's all the exact things I have to hit, and therefore I'm saying no to lots of things. It's really freedom, it's empowerment, so that you can stop fixating on hitting some exact numbers and instead start paying attention within those guardrails, to what actually matters. How are you feeling? Is this sustainable?

Philip Pape: 20:48

And when that happens, something remarkable happens. You develop an intuitive yes, intuitive understanding of how your body responds to different inputs, including food. And, yes, if you've heard the phrase intuitive eating, that's a I'll call it a legitimate use of that phrase in a way that will actually work for people, as opposed to hey, I'm going to eat intuitively, listen to my hunger signals, and yet you've never tracked and have no idea how you could trust your hunger. No, I have tracked, I've given myself guardrails. Now I understand how my body responds to these things. Now I can do it more intuitively, going forward. And then you learn to trust the process because you can see the real changes happening. It's actually producing the result.

Philip Pape: 21:33

You know not just scale, weight, but your strength, your energy, how you look and feel, the things we actually care about. And then that knowledge, that education, stays with you long after you stop tracking. When I say I want people to fire me after they work with me as a coach, that is what I mean. I want them to have that knowledge, that intuition to go forward. That makes me so proud and so happy and even grateful that I'm able to spend time with somebody to get to that point right, because that is a life changed forever. And hopefully that person you know if you're listening, that's you. You spread that message to others. You know who are seeking it. It becomes part of who you are. You don't need to obsess over every calorie or macro anymore, because you understand the principles that drive real change, whether that's your physique or anything else, and that's true freedom, and that is available to anyone who is willing to make the shift. You are all able, you just have to be willing.

Philip Pape: 22:23

So if what I've shared resonates with you, if you're ready to break free from rigid diets, rigid tracking systems and start focusing on what actually matters for changing your physique, I want to invite you to join us in Wits and Weights Physique University. This is exactly what we do inside the program. We help you build a sustainable system to tracking progress that delivers real results, without the mental burden of hitting exact numbers every day. And just to give you a little detail of what's included in there, you get, yes, the system, which includes an onboarding right from day one, all of the tools, exactly how to use them, there's videos, there's all this fun stuff to show you that you get expert guidance on adjusting your approach based on progress. And we do that through the community, through weekly live coaching calls and through tagging me and others in the community to get coaching as we go along. You get the community itself, which is a bunch of other folks trying to do the same thing, like-minded, that spur you on, that cheer you on.

Philip Pape: 23:19

And then I mentioned the weekly live coaching calls. We actually alternate those. One week it's a non-recorded private coaching call where you can get into more sensitive topics and get some coaching, and then the other week is more educational, where we cover a training topic as well as have some coaching and those we record and include the replay. So visit witsandweightscom slash physique to learn more on how to join and to learn more about the program. Again, that's witsandweightscom slash physique. All right, until next time, keep using your wits lifting those weights and remember real progress isn't about perfect numbers, it's about consistent actions that actually change your body. I'll talk to you next time here on the Wits and Weights Podcast.

Your Macros and Training Plan Mean Nothing Without THIS (Kevin Palmieri) | Ep 250

Ready to match your effort to your physique goals? Get evidence-based strategies that work by joining my FREE email list at witsandweights.com/email

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Are you training hard but feel like you're getting nowhere? Wondering why your effort isn’t translating into results? What does it take to get to level 10 in fitness or life?

Philip (@witsandweights) connects with Kevin Palmieri, co-host of the globally-ranked Next Level University podcast with over 1,900 episodes. Kevin opens up about his journey from the stage as a bodybuilder to balancing fitness with business and life. They dive into why even evidence-based plans fail without matching effort to goals and how to bridge that gap through mindset, sustainability, and strategy. 

Learn the power of starting small, the truth about elite fitness goals, and how flexibility, communication, and consistency can transform your journey.

Kevin Palmieri is the co-founder and co-host of Next Level University, a top-rated self-improvement podcast. His insights on mindset, fitness, and personal development are backed by years of experience and dedication to helping others optimize their lives.

Today, you’ll learn all about:

3:25 Understanding results vs. effort
5:25 The importance of sustainability in fitness
10:18 Honest conversations about priorities and effort
12:51 The sustainability-consistency-improvement framework
19:52 The power of flexibility and fundamentals in fitness
24:30 Discussion about fitness influencers, life priorities, and circumstances
34:16 The uncomfortable truths about extreme fitness goals
39:52 Turning discomfort into confidence through bulking
44:46 Building belief in your ability to control body composition
48:37 The power of commitment devices for consistency
51:47 Outro

Episode resources:

• Email: kevin@nextleveluniverse.com

• Website: nextleveluniverse.com

• Instagram: @neverquitkid

Why Perfect Training Plans Fail (And How to Finally Match Your Effort to Your Fitness Goals)

You know what to do. You've read the research on progressive overload, protein requirements, and optimal training frequency. But despite following what looks like the perfect plan on paper, you're still not seeing the results you want. What gives?

The Hidden Gap Between Knowledge and Results

Most people think they just need more information - the latest training program, another diet strategy, or some revolutionary supplement. But as I discussed with Kevin Palmieri, founder of Next Level University and former competitive bodybuilder, the real issue often isn't knowledge - it's execution.

Why Level 5 Effort Won't Get You Level 10 Results

One of the biggest revelations from my conversation with Kevin was the uncomfortable truth about effort levels. Many of us want elite-level results while putting in moderate effort. As Kevin explains, this disconnect between our goals and our actual commitment level is often what holds us back.

The Three Keys to Sustainable Progress

Through our discussion, Kevin outlined three critical elements for actually achieving your fitness goals:

1. Sustainability - Start with what you can actually maintain long-term, even if it seems "too easy"

2. Consistency - Build habits you can stick to before trying to optimize everything

3. Improvement - Only after establishing consistency should you focus on progression

Finding Your True Sustainable Level

Rather than jumping into an aggressive 6-day training split or dramatic diet overhaul, Kevin suggests starting with what he calls "embarrassingly small goals." This might mean:

• One 15-minute gym session per week

• Adding a single serving of protein to each meal

• Getting an extra 1,000 steps daily

While this may seem insufficient, it's about building momentum that compounds over time.

The Reality Check About Elite Results

For those chasing more extreme goals like getting stage-lean or building significant muscle, Kevin shared some hard truths from his bodybuilding experience. The reality is that achieving elite-level results often requires:

• Sacrificing social flexibility

• Dealing with mental health challenges

• Managing relationship strain

• Potentially developing disordered eating patterns

A Better Approach for Most People

Instead of pursuing unsustainable extremes, focus on:

1. Matching effort to realistic goals - Be honest about what you're willing to consistently commit to

2. Building foundational habits - Master the basics before adding complexity

3. Creating accountability - Use "commitment devices" to ensure follow-through

4. Maintaining flexibility - Allow for life's natural chaos while staying generally consistent

The Path Forward: Sustainable Progress

The key takeaway from my conversation with Kevin is that sustainable progress beats unsustainable perfection every time. Rather than trying to force yourself into someone else's optimal program, focus on finding what you can actually maintain long-term.

Start with honest self-assessment about your true priorities and capacity for commitment. Then build from there, gradually increasing your effort as your foundation of consistency grows stronger.

Remember - you don't have to choose between being perfectly optimal and making zero progress. There's a middle ground where real, lasting results happen through sustainable effort matched to realistic goals.

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Transcript

Philip Pape: 0:01

You know what to do. You know the value of flexible nutrition, tracking your macros, following an effective training program and training hard in the gym. Yet you still aren't seeing the physical results you want, whether that's getting stronger, losing fat or building more muscle. If you're starting to wonder if maybe you're missing something, even if your nutrition and training plan look perfect on paper, what I'm about to share might challenge everything you believe about effort and results. Today I'm sitting down with someone who's not only transformed his own physique but has published over 1,900 podcast episodes about reaching the next level and been featured on nearly 3,000 shows to uncover why even the best evidence-based training and nutrition approach can fail without the right mindset and execution. You'll discover why level 5 effort will never get you level 10 results. How to honestly assess if you're really putting in the work and the framework for finally matching your effort to your goals.

Philip Pape: 1:03

Welcome to Wits and Weights, the podcast that blends evidence and engineering to help you build smart, efficient systems to achieve your dream physique. I'm your host, philip Pape, and today we are answering the question why do most people fail to achieve their fitness goals? Is it a lack of information, the wrong plan or something else? My mentor, friend and returning guest, kevin Palmieri, is the founder and co-host of Next Level University, a global top 100 self-improvement podcast with over get this 1,900 episodes, and he's been a guest on over 3,000 other podcasts.

Philip Pape: 1:38

After realizing that even perfect plans fail without elite execution, kevin has built a framework for matching your effort level to your goals, whether that's in the gym, in the kitchen or in life. Today, you'll learn fail without elite execution. Kevin has built a framework for matching your effort level to your goals, whether that's in the gym, in the kitchen or in life. Today, you'll learn that having a plan and knowing what to do isn't enough if your effort doesn't match your ambitions. How to honestly assess where you're falling short and what's required to finally start putting in true level 10 effort with your nutrition and training. Kevin, my friend, so good we made this happen and that you are back on the show, philip, I appreciate that wonderful introduction so very much.

Kevin Palmieri: 2:10

I hope I can live up to the reputation you have created for me. That will be the goal. But I'm excited to chat. You're a wonderful human and any opportunity I get to chat with you is always a good time. So here we are.

Philip Pape: 2:20

Yeah, we know each other really well at this point through both friendship and mentorship and coaching, podcasting, a little bit of fitness. You came on episode 54 back. We were talking like gosh two years, maybe over a year ago now, and I like with the intros, I like to set the standard for what the guest brings, so as opposed to the other way around. So you're already there, man.

Lisa: 2:41

You're already there, all right I appreciate it.

Philip Pape: 2:44

You're already there. Now, besides being such a great guy, I wanted you on so that we could talk about wanting level 10 results but not being able to prioritize putting in the effort to get there, not not so much as judgment on people like not working hard enough, not enough willpower, but just the realities of life and balance and all of these things. So you host a podcast that has the phrase next level in it, and I think it's appropriate, but you know, none of us are perfect. None of us are all at that level 10 or where we might want to be. So, as a guy who has been in the bodybuilding game in the past and you're showing off your guns right now on the video and who also has a thriving business to run, is this something you struggle with right now?

Kevin Palmieri: 3:25

This whole thing started. Let's just cut to the chase. Let's just cut to the chase. Philip and I have a wonderful WhatsApp dialogue going on.

Kevin Palmieri: 3:32

He reached out to me one day and said hey, can I ask you a question? And I said yeah, of course. And he said as a business owner and somebody into self-improvement and what you do, what is your biggest struggle when it comes to fitness? And I said, honestly, the biggest struggle is understanding that I want 10 out of 10 level results, but I can't really put in level 10 effort. When I was bodybuilding, I was waking up and doing an hour of cardio, going home, eating, going, working out for an hour. All my life was essentially make food, eat food, work out, rest, and I was in really, really good shape and I won on stage and that's awesome. But that's not necessarily sustainable for where I am today. So I feel like I'm struggling with it less than I ever have, but I've also drastically adjusted my expectations for myself and I've also drastically adjusted my expectations for myself and I've also drastically adjusted the perception of myself, and that's I think. I'm not saying lower standards, I'm saying create more accurate understanding of standards based on circumstances.

Philip Pape: 4:40

Essentially, yeah, that makes sense. There's realistic expectations come to mind, but, like you said, without lowering the standards. It makes me think of a conversation I had with a friend about is there such a thing as good enough whether it's in fitness or any other pursuit, like if someone generally just wants to be healthy and look decent, not get on stage like you did. You know what is that effort level required and are they even achieving that? So I think I think we want to kind of hit on both sides of the equation for folks that are just struggling to do anything maybe and want to make progress sort of beginners, if you will and then those who are really busy. They know what to do, they have the information, they listen to this podcast, they know all about protein and everything else and they're like, eh, something's not quite clicking, so where do we take it from there, kevin?

Kevin Palmieri: 5:24

I would say if you're somebody who doesn't feel like you're doing anything and you're struggling, the first, the one word that matters more than anything, in my opinion, is sustainability. Nothing really matters if what you're doing isn't sustainable. The best diet regimen, the best exercise regimen, just doesn't matter. If it's not sustainable. You can start with really good intentions and you can start with high levels of motivation, but if it's not sustainable, you won't continue it. So sustainability for me is always the most important thing. I'll be very, very honest. We grew our business a ton last year.

Kevin Palmieri: 6:02

I also was out of the gym more than I had been in the last five years probably. When I was working my way back in, I went to a smaller gym that had less bodybuilders in it, because for me, it was more sustainable for me to go make my mistakes and look like a weakling there Again my standards, my words for me than it was at the home gym that I go to all the time. I wasn't prepared for that level of feedback yet. I just wasn't. I was essentially feeling like I was starting from zero.

Kevin Palmieri: 6:34

So sustainability is wildly important, and I think it's also the least sexy thing in the world, and that's why not a lot of people talk about it. A lot of people say, well, go exercise for two hours, take massive action, all that stuff. It works for some humans, but not for everyone. And I would say, on the other end, if you feel like you know all the stuff and you listen to this podcast and you have resources and you're not doing it, I think it's a real challenging conversation of core beliefs and core values and core aspirations. Would you rather go to the gym after work or would you rather be home with your family?

Kevin Palmieri: 7:14

That is a real, honest conversation that I think is important to have, because I don't think you can really balance everything. I think that's made up. I don't think it's real. I think what you're doing is juggling everything. So right now I'm here with Philip, I'm not spending time with my wife and I'm not making any money Right. So right now I'm doing this. The other areas of my life are technically falling slowly, but if I'm juggling three things, two of those balls are not getting caught right now, and I think of that from a fitness perspective too, for very busy human beings.

Philip Pape: 7:52

All right. So there's a lot of really good things. I want to pull on some threads. So what you ended with, with balance not being a thing I totally agree with. I've used the word integration or or whatever it is.

Philip Pape: 8:04

We joke that you're on this show today and you've got like back to back, uh, calendar, and all this stuff's not going to happen because of that, and you, like you said you have to evaluate should I do this or should I do this? Now, it's not always binary, right? Like sometimes that's an excuse where we're saying we're we're forcing ourselves into a binary decision when it it's not really, but I get it. So you also mentioned sustainability, which, yeah, it's a buzzword that becomes this unsexy thing like sleep. When I put out an episode on sleep, I'm like this is going to solve everybody's recovery and training needs and nobody listens to it because it says sleep. You got to say something like do this one thing for massive gains, all right, so let's talk about practical things.

Philip Pape: 8:47

You said you went to a different environment. The smaller gym, fewer bodybuilders. Actually reminded me of a meme I saw and if you saw this, arnold Schwarzenegger and it says like if you're going to wear gloves to the gym you might as well take your purse with you or something like that. It's you know, but anyway it reminded me of a discussion I just had with the founder of Boostcamp. He's on probably the episode before or after this one, I don't know. He said that they looked at data of lifters and their drop-off rates and they found that three days a week had a much smaller drop-off weight than four. And it's a great way to look at adherence and sustainability from a practical perspective is, if you're trying to do that four day a week program and you just can only get in three days, you're going to feel so frustrated, but if you do a two day a week program, it should be easy.

Philip Pape: 9:33

So let's talk about that, those standards then, for somebody trying to just get fit and again, you have a background in lifting. Let's target the folks that are in their forties or fifties. They have a family, they have a business or a job, kind of like you, but they, they need to go through that effort. That's probably a higher level effort than you right now, cause they're you're maintaining, I think hopefully they want to grow Well, right, cause certain things get detrained. I get it, um, just like you, not being with being with your family right now is getting detrained. Where do they start?

Kevin Palmieri: 10:11

And then we can talk about how you're not putting enough effort. We'll go from there. That's the hard thing is you start by not putting enough effort in. That's really the weird thing about all this, and I've been saying this so often on podcasts there is no one size fits all. I think most blanket statements are just wrong, because if it seems to work for everyone, it probably works for no one If we really think about it, because we're not factoring in the circumstances. So I would say you do the least amount humanly possible. That will give you any feeling of progress. That is the advice I would give.

Kevin Palmieri: 10:49

You and I were talking in the pre-chat before this and we were talking about the podcast and I said, oh, I didn't know, you started doing episodes every other week. And you said, yeah, that's what I was doing in the beginning. It would be really easy for me to look at that and say you're never going to win that way. I. I do seven episodes a week. Not good that I've been doing this a long time. This is like the thing that I do.

Kevin Palmieri: 11:10

I always tell clients I want you to do the minimum that you will actually stick with, because it's not about the gains or the results or the weight loss in the first week, that doesn't matter. It's not about that. It's about are you there two months later doing the thing at a high enough clip where you can actually get results? So I'm in this phase now, philip, of setting goals that are almost embarrassingly small, because when you start to get momentum, it's easier to go. It's easier to go to the gym or whatever your preferred preference. When it comes to go, it's easier to go to the gym or whatever your preferred preference. When it comes to exercises, it's easier to do it when you've been doing it longer. So that would be my advice. It might not be the best, most practical advice in the world, but I've just seen that work, more than almost anything else I've ever said to anyone, which makes it practical.

Philip Pape: 12:03

Which makes it very practical.

Philip Pape: 12:05

I mean, just to quote something you just said it starts with not enough effort. I think that's a really good reframe because people are trying to do enough for something but if they're doing zero, going from zero to one and you see this in a lot of paradigms I spoke with Dr Sarah Ballantyne. Her episode came out on the show and she said going from zero to one servings of vegetables a day is as effective as going from one to four when it comes to like longevity, right, we see this everywhere. So sitting on the couch to going to the gym one day a week is going to make a massive, a massive change. But something else he said was like you could almost do that. Find that minimum level and kind of not coast. But do that. Find that minimum level and kind of not coast, but do that for a while in a compound. So can you essentially half-ass your way to a great physique, right?

Kevin Palmieri: 12:51

I think you can half-ass your way to a better physique. Okay, good, but I don't think you're most likely going to be able to half-ass your way to your ideal physique Good way to put it. This is my thought process on it. So there's three steps. Sustainability is the first one. You do something sustainably to start. When sustainability becomes relatively easy, that means you're doing it consistently. So if you start sustainably, then you can act consistently. Then the third step is improvement.

Kevin Palmieri: 13:23

So when you lock in, I go to the gym let's just use the gym as an example. I go to the gym one time per week for 15 minutes, cool, awesome. And eventually you say that's sustainable, I'm doing it consistently. I've been doing it for two months. All right, I've done it back to back. Okay, maybe not a ton of time, but let's see. Do we think we could go one time a week for 30 minutes? Do we think we could go two times a week for 15 minutes? Both, all right, let's see. And then it gets to the point where that becomes easy. So yeah, I think it's a conversation about ideal versus realistic. Ideally, you would go to the gym the recommended amount of times, whatever that is for you. Realistically, it might take you three years to get there, okay, and that's. That's totally fine, because the majority of the amazing results you get are probably going to be in the first three years, anyway, because that's when you're changing all of your behaviors. So that, whatever that answer is, that's what I would say.

Philip Pape: 14:24

No, that's a simple framework Sustainability, consistency, improvement. The question people might say is what if that first step, even though it's sustainable, is not enough to show something meaningful for a long time?

Kevin Palmieri: 14:38

That's the hard part is again easier said than done. You have to measure the inputs as much, if not more, than the outputs when you're new to something, because the inputs are the thing that you're not doing. You're not doing the input, so you're definitely not going to get the, the output. There is a lag. There's a lag between input and then perceived result. So I would say it's test and then reevaluate. So if you feel like, if you feel like it's sustainable and you've done it and nothing is happening, then I would say all right, cool. How much more could we challenge ourselves? Would it be sustainable still to multiply the time? Let's just say add 50, so we're going to do 20 minutes instead of 15. Awesome, let's start there. I, that's kind of my, my thought process, because I think one of the big things that can happen is, if you push it too hard, too fast, you identify as the type of person who is not capable of doing it and then you just stop and then you lose, lose all the momentum. I'd rather have 50% momentum than zero.

Philip Pape: 15:48

Yeah, it makes perfect sense because the base of information that you're working from. This is where I think that is important, in that, when they listen to this podcast or read the Muscle and Strength Pyramids or hopefully find good, solid information, you can have at least a baseline level of confidence that the steps you're taking measured by the inputs, like you said, measured by the inputs, because the outputs aren't going to show up for a while. We'll eventually produce those outputs. The challenge is, if people don't know the right information to begin with and then they go down the wrong path I don't want to really get it too much into that today, because the premise is that we kind of have that information, what about somebody who's doing too much and stumbling, like you said, and then they have to dial it back? Do we dial it back all the way or do we? Is there a backward stare process to like decrement us down into a sustainable place?

Kevin Palmieri: 16:36

That's a great question. Usually, usually, that's not where I am with people. Usually it's the other way. Yeah, I would say it's probably. The word that comes to mind for me is simplify and optimize. So I guess we have to get specific on what the actual behaviors are that the people are practicing. But when you say they're doing too much, what do you mean?

Philip Pape: 16:59

Yeah, I'm thinking doing a lot of cardio or going to the gym seven days a week, thinking they need that level of volume for results. I guess what I'm implying is they're not getting results even with all that. Work is where I'm coming from.

Kevin Palmieri: 17:11

Yeah, I think that. So my argument for that would be if that is the behavior, then the awareness isn't high enough, because now there's a ton of data out there that suggests that is not the way to do it. And if you're doing that, maybe you're overtraining I know that's another buzzword in the industry but then maybe the awareness isn't enough. So that's kind of the thought when you're starting. It's as much about the mindset as it is the strategy and the work ethic. If you've already been doing it for a long time, give yourself two thumbs up and check the box.

Kevin Palmieri: 17:49

You're really good at the work ethic part, but the strategy and the mindset are off. So that's what you have to work on. It's the mindset and the strategy, not the work ethic. I think in the beginning it typically is the work ethic that people are afraid to put out there. So I would say it's probably a conversation of awareness more than anything else. You have to seek new information that proves to you that it's not. It proves to you that the reason you're not getting the results is not the strategy, but it is the strategy in a way, and then you can adjust accordingly.

Philip Pape: 18:25

Yeah, no, it makes sense Because people are I know folks that listen are sometimes fearful of dropping a bunch of work from their plate that they think is getting them fitness goals and then all of a sudden they're going to gain a bunch of weight, lose a bunch of muscle, whatever. Yeah, yeah. But look, if you're listening, if you're not getting the result doing that anyway, what is that telling you? Like, strip it back.

Kevin Palmieri: 18:45

What you feel like you're doing is you feel like you're doing optimal, like what I'm doing is optimal but realistically you're not getting any results. Yeah, so it's not going to work in the long run anyway, so we have to adjust something. It just also seems like the least logical thing to adjust. It's like well, why should I do less when more isn't getting me results? Completely understandable, but there are certain times where you're just not in the right, you're out of optimal. It just doesn't feel like it.

Philip Pape: 19:11

So now, once people get through that cycle and they start to build momentum and start to grow and up-level themselves, what separates those operating at a level 10, understanding that that goalpost can move right, From those that are kind of stuck at a five or six? They're not at a zero, they're at a five or six. What would you say differentiates those assuming it's not intentional? You know what I mean.

Kevin Palmieri: 19:34

Yeah, can you ref, can you reframe for me?

Philip Pape: 19:40

the question. The question yeah, please um, okay, yeah what distinguishes a level 10 person from a level 5 person in terms of?

Kevin Palmieri: 19:48

fitness specifically yeah sure fitness I would say honestly, probably flexibility. I think flexibility is a really big thing that a lot of people don't talk about it, but I would argue that my business partner is probably at a level 10 in terms of inputs, but he is also wildly flexible with what counts as a workout. So for him, walking the dog is something that he checks the box off and he's getting a workout. He started by doing 25 minutes of weight training seven days a week. He works out every day. I'm not saying that's what I don't aspire to, that that's what he aspires to. Then, when that became sustainable, he did 30. Then it went to 35. Then it went to 40. Then it went to 45. All of it was a moving target based on your own standards, paired with flexibility. So I would say that it's way more about your ability to show up than it is the results you get, because there's a lot of people that are in really good shape that well, they've just been doing it. I've been doing this so long. I can get away with things that maybe other people can't, so I'm not a good example of just do what I do. So I think flexibility is one, I think prioritization is is probably two, and then I man, more than ever, I would say, understanding and practicing the basic fundamentals, the principles.

Kevin Palmieri: 21:11

Yeah, you talked about sleep. I used to be the guy who got four hours of sleep and I went. I just hopped up on NO Explode, I'm going to go to the gym and I'm going to crank out a great workout. Now, when I get eight hours of sleep, everything is better, my workouts are better, my days are better, I drink more water because I'm awake. It doesn't seem like it attaches to everything, but it is the foundation of everything. So I would say it's the fundamentals that don't seem like they matter, that matter to everything else that's going to help you in the short and long run.

Philip Pape: 21:46

That's powerful, right, because there are people that want to jump to hey, I want to lose fat but you don't have the basics. And hey, that extra hour of sleep is just going to make it easy to lose fat, right, and guess what? You don't have to eat as few calories. Going back to the flexibility, this is a really good one because I've been thinking a lot about training. I consider myself like intermediate lifter, if you will, and I started with programs that were very simple, basic, you know, like boring, but basic, right, like a set of three by five squat type program which a lot of people do, and I think they're great.

Philip Pape: 22:17

Initially they're not flexible, other than maybe the amount you jump, you know, in weight session to session, um. But now I'm a huge fan of periodization, of base and peaking and undulation and like just really varying it up, not for its own sake, but because there's benefit to that um, to your body. So I think there's a literal flexibility and there's a metaphorical flexibility we're talking about. That is hugely important with fitness. So if you're listening, like, just this is for the people that are already at level five, trying to get to level 10, we already addressed going from zero to five. So it's kind of like you're periodizing your leveling right Start with the basics, the sustainability, and then move on to these others.

Kevin Palmieri: 22:57

Can I add a real quick thought? Yeah, yeah, please, please, this. I think this is what I'm trying to. I'm trying to get this to land in my own head so I can say it out loud. We had somebody on the podcast early on. Her name's Lori Harder and she said something that I'll never forget for as long as I'm alive. She said consistent 70% days are better than spotty 100% days, and that's essentially what I'm saying, is I'm thinking more about the trend line. So if you are doing a little bit better than you were doing at this point last week, it's never going to actually be 100%. So if you're getting closer to whatever your unique capability is, that is a win in my book. I don't aspire ever to get to that bodybuilding level again. It's never going to happen, but I do aspire to get closer and closer and closer and closer. So now it's not about me getting to optimal. It's, it's about me getting to realistic, based on the circumstances. The lifestyle and the effort I'm willing to put in Makes sense.

Philip Pape: 23:57

Yeah, and the idea of using the levels. This is just a uh what do?

Lisa: 24:01

you call it.

Philip Pape: 24:02

A stand-in because somebody who, like you, are you might be operating on level 10 for what you want today and it's a lot lower level 10 than before. So, yeah, I mean, as long as you're happy, as long as you're meeting where you want to meet. So here's what I wonder what do you think about the? When you look at the fitness industry, we look at all the um influencers. Oh boy, how many of them are putting in level 10 effort versus just really marketing. Well, what are your thoughts on that?

Kevin Palmieri: 24:28

Oh man.

Kevin Palmieri: 24:30

I mean one. I'm willing to bet. If you looked at the median age of most of these influencers, they're probably in their mid twenties. So there's something different about I remember the 20,. When I was in the mid twenties you could do anything and it kind of worked. I have worked out with some people in the fitness industry that have really big followings and what I will say is they have days where they record content and they have days where they really work out, and the workouts you see online are not usually their days where they're actually working out.

Philip Pape: 25:02

Yeah, yeah, that's a disconnect.

Kevin Palmieri: 25:05

Right or wrong? I'm not. I'm not saying they shouldn't. I'm not trying to throw smoke on anybody. I've done workouts with people that didn't get recorded and they were drastically different than the ones that got did. Uh, that that did get recorded. So I think they're probably closer to 10 than we realize. Because if it's your brand, you do we realize. Because if it's your brand, you do it right. If it's your brand, you, you live it. I probably have the privilege of consuming more self-improvement content than somebody else because it's quite literally my job. So when I was more in the fitness space, I was doing way more stuff associated with fitness. Yeah, makes sense, it was my job. I had to look good. That was kind of the thing I have to be good at base. I was doing way more stuff associated with fitness. Yeah, makes sense, it was my job. I had to look good. That was kind of the thing I have to be good at self-improvement. So I have to study it. So I would say they're probably up there. They just don't market that.

Philip Pape: 25:59

Yeah, it makes sense and it's not always a sign of a lack of ethics, because a good coach is going to coach people across a variety of programming styles and whatnot and maybe follow something different on their own. Okay, we talked about sustainability. When it comes to sustainability like let's say, you get to a level where you're training four days a week, you're, you're sleeping a lot, everything else One of the biggest challenges, like my clients face all the time, is life. Like life gets in the way, and that's kind of going back to the prioritization thing, not just on a weekly basis, but randomly right, like randomly, things come up. What do we do? Like knowing that chaos is going to happen, what's your approach to being ready for that and having that resilience or flexibility which you kind of alluded to already?

Kevin Palmieri: 26:40

I get it out of the way early. So, no matter what happens it, it never goes away. That's the first exercise for me is the first thing I do. It is the foundation of my oh okay, yeah, first first time of the day. Yeah, perfect, it's okay, awesome, unless something is burning down at six o'clock in the morning, which it usually isn't.

Kevin Palmieri: 26:56

I'm, I'm going to do that immediately. I would say it's the flexibility to say you know, it's the flexibility to say you know, I really wanted to go weight train today, but what I'm going to do is I'm going to go outside and play with the kids for 30 minutes and burn some calories doing that. Or I know and again I know it's not one-to-one, but I know I didn't have time to exercise today, but I do know we're going to be mulching this weekend, so I'm going to be lifting a lot of stuff and I'm going to be moving around. It's that it's not the one or zero, it's maybe we get a half point today because we did something differently than we wouldn't have. That's usually where my mind goes.

Kevin Palmieri: 27:34

I think doing it as a like a pillar of a morning or a night routine is probably the best. But again, easy for the ultimate cat dad to say because I don't have. I don't have real children, so it's a little bit different, but that's what I would say. I would probably ask you that. I would probably turn the tables on you and say well, as someone who does have a family and children, what keeps you consistent?

Philip Pape: 27:56

Yeah, it's funny, the working out of the morning thing actually, I've been talking about a lot lately, including with regards to sleep, because it can improve your sleep to work out in the morning. Yeah, I'd like to say, just prioritize the one or two things you have to do that you are going to do. That is sacrosanct for you in your week. I can't imagine not training when, like I can't if I'm not on vacation.

Lisa: 28:16

I'm going to train, I'm going to.

Philip Pape: 28:17

God damn it. I'm going to find a way to train, but the problem with that is then maybe something else actually gets? You know, yeah, so, um, I guess the right answer that I would say is it's going to depend on the person, their schedule, their lifestyle, their like you said, circumstances and what works for you.

Philip Pape: 28:33

I think there's not. It's often an excuse, and so there's reframing involved. But we also have to meet people where they're at like. If you have a night shift job where you get five hours of sleep I'm not going to be the 20 year old influencer it's like, well, you need eight, you just need eight hours, like finding. And there's literally no way they're going to do it unless they change their job. And I'm not in here trying to, you know, change economic policy and get you a new job. Yeah, so right, so you got to do. But you better eat a lot more food hardly be dieting and you better work out maybe two or three days a week rather than five, because you need more. You know what I mean. So you have to make all those trade-offs.

Kevin Palmieri: 29:10

Yeah, well, that's the hard thing is there is a trade-off. So maybe you talk to your partner and you say, hey, I know things were a little haywire today. Is there any way I can sneak away for 30 minutes? I want to try to get a quick lift in, or whatever it is. I think that's a really big piece of it too is just having honest conversations with the people around you. If somebody understands how much something means to you, they're going to try to help you find a way to get that need met.

Kevin Palmieri: 29:36

Now, that can't always be it. If the kids are throwing up or whatever. Some days you're probably going to have to miss it. But I think that's the hard thing is to your point. Sometimes that's going to be the truth. Your circumstances, yes, we can overcome and work through circumstances, but not always. Sometimes circumstances dictate our reality and I'm never going to be one of those people who says, well, you know what, so you don't have any money or you don't have anywhere to live, it doesn't matter, go sell this and eventually you'll have a penthouse. Yeah, no, that's not the way I like to talk about it. Some days the circumstances will win. I think we just have to be honest and do our best to try to make sure the circumstances don't win sequentially, because that's when things get off. So just because today went off the rails, it doesn't mean tomorrow we can't try to have a more aligned, specific, intentional day.

Philip Pape: 30:29

You alluded to something really powerful there and that's communication, and I don't want to let that one go because don't take this the wrong way You're a lot like my wife in that you are like an empath in a way, and I've heard you and Alan talk about this on your show the different personality traits and strengths and whatnot. You seem emotionally connected to people in a way. Not a lot of folks are, and maybe you've developed that. But especially when it comes to men, men often have time, difficulty, being vulnerable and sharing, and that's something I've worked on.

Philip Pape: 30:58

Myself like to say that I'm kind of cold and calm and collected about things, which can be a strength when I'm like receiving, as a vessel, someone else's venting, like it just brushes off me, but it could be a downside when I don't respond or act like I'm listening Right. So communication could be the thing you're missing If you're listening to this, when everything seems to not be working with that balance and it could just just be someone else is kind of either holding you back, intentionally or not. You know. It could be a roommate who's sabotaging your eating patterns by putting candy on the counter or something simple like that.

Philip Pape: 31:33

You just have to talk to them. Easier said than done, it's a skill, but you talk about it all the time on your show because you cover much more than fitness and I think it's worth people to be aware of that. Right, it's not just these strategic things.

Kevin Palmieri: 31:45

No, there's a. Really. Essentially, what we're talking about is we're talking about identifying and adjusting resistance. That's all. That's all it really is and and environment and you use that word earlier, before I brought it up. Environment does create resistance, and one of the reasons environments create resistance is because of the people in the environment.

Kevin Palmieri: 32:04

So the last thing you're going to want to do is I'll give this as an example my wife and I have a practice where, if something is coming up and there is a conflict maybe I have a podcast scheduled or I'm supposed to do something I'll say on a scale of zero to 10, how important is this to you? If it's a 10, I reschedule whatever I have going on. If it's a five, we have a conversation and I say look for me, the thing that I'm doing is like a nine and a half. Is that okay? She said, yeah, absolutely. That's something you could do with fitness. Oh, I know, babe, I know we're supposed to have date night tonight. Is there any way that we can do it 40 minutes later so I can get a quick workout in? That's a completely different day. So flexibility not only falls on you, it also falls on the people around you, if they're willing to partake in the things that you value.

Kevin Palmieri: 32:57

But that's why I go back to the core values and the core beliefs. Core value for me is fitness. It is a core, freaking value. I love it. A core belief for me is I am a better man when I'm in better shape. I'm more fulfilled, I have more self-trust. I just am. I just. I have more to give, I have more to pour from. I believe that if I go to the gym, I'll be a better partner. So that's all in my head Anytime I'm making the decisions, or asking for grace when I need it, which I do often the other day.

Philip Pape: 33:44

Okay, she was with my daughters and I was a half hour away from recording a podcast with a guest a guest who we had rescheduled twice is a pretty big name. And going through my head is what do I do, right? Do I drop everything to fix the flat? Do I tell her just wait for an hour and a half, which you know? That's not the answer, or it was their middle ground. There was a middle ground. She understood. She's like why don't you just come pick us up, bring us back home, cause it was 10 minutes away? Fortunately, we did that, left the car. Later on, she drove me. I fixed the flat, no big deal.

Philip Pape: 34:10

But again you're right, you have to communicate. So that's important. It is, it's very important. Yeah, I want to address the kind of the other extreme of this, which is you alluded to your bodybuilding experience in the past and getting on stage Like what's the uncomfortable truth that people have to know for something like that? I mean, you know, getting shredded, whatever, even if they don't want to go on stage, but they want this quote unquote extreme level of fitness that most people, you know, they don't want to hear it, they don't want to know if they need to know it because you've been through there and they need to reconcile with that, so that maybe that's not the goal that they really want, or maybe it is it is the only goal, okay, if you want to get show ready, stage ready and you want to have a chance at at winning, so there's.

Kevin Palmieri: 34:50

So this is something I always say too. I think one of the most dangerous things in the world is seeing somebody on stage that and I'm putting this in quotes for those just listening that doesn't look like they belong on stage, when in reality they lost 150 pounds to have the confidence to step on stage. Good for you, that's potentially a different story, but if you're going on stage with the intentions of winning for me, I traded in everything else. I traded in. My mental health went absolutely down the can. I already had some mental health stuff. So it wasn't just that. My relationship was terrible and I had a super supportive partner, but I just had nothing to give. I was anxious all the time. I was a control freak because I had to know when can I get my next meal? Is there a microwave there? People didn't like me very much because we went to weddings and I brought my meals.

Kevin Palmieri: 35:42

People don't like that when you don't eat the $200 meal that they paid for understandably so yes I just think, unfortunately and maybe not everybody, but unfortunately I think it turns you into a relatively selfish human being, because not only are you not getting almost any of your dietary needs met, but you're quite literally putting your body into a state of flea, like your body needs more than you're giving it all the time.

Kevin Palmieri: 36:09

Yeah, your, your body's just trying to survive, so you're probably not going to be the best partner and and all that. I've met some bodybuilders who it almost doesn't even seem to affect. They're just like, they're just totally normal. But I think they're just cut from a different cloth. That maybe I wasn't. So it's that it's. I think it's more mental than it is physical. The physical part wasn't. Honestly, it wasn't that bad. The mental piece of the, of thinking of okay, it's 148 in 12 minutes I can eat. How many grams of rice do I have? How many grams of egg whites do I have? That is just. It's very, very, very constricting.

Kevin Palmieri: 36:48

And I definitely afterwards had a mild eating disorder for a couple months and I didn't realize it at the time, but my hormones were so messed up. I remember one day I was traveling for work and we went out to get breakfast and I was like, oh, it's nice. This is probably two weeks after my show and I got. I said, is there any way you can do a banana split? And they're like it's like eight o'clock, sir, can you? Maybe you can just put them on the pancakes. I'm like, yeah, we can do that for you, and I ate so much. I almost couldn't go to work that day because of how bad it was. So, yeah, there's a downside of getting to that point and I would really sit down and and get familiar with what you might have to give up. There's a lot of comfort that you have to give up to get that level of shredded and, honestly, it's not.

Lisa: 37:36

It's not worth it for 99.9 percent of people yeah hi, my name is l and I'd like to give a big shout out to my nutrition coach, philip Pate. With his coaching I have lost 17 pounds. He helped me identify the reason that I wanted to lose weight, and it's very simple longevity. I want to be healthy, active and independent until the day I die. He introduced me to this wonderful little app called Macrofactor. I got that part of my nutrition figured out. Along with that is the movement part of nutrition. There's a plan to it and really helped me with that. The other thing he helped me with was knowing that I need to get a lot of steps in. So the more steps you have, the higher your expenditure is and the easier it is to lose weight. When it's presented to you like he presents it, it makes even more sense.

Lisa: 38:15

And the other thing that he had was a hunker guide and that really helped me, so thank you.

Philip Pape: 38:23

Yeah, that's the key. I mean, I've had a few other guests on the show or coaches in that space and it's the same thing. It's a very cautious lens on. First you need to be filtered out and be the 0.1% remaining who it's truly appropriate for, and then you have to filter out any obsessions, eating disorders and you get to the very, very tiny slice and you know again. I've met folks like Dr Eric Helms. We all know him and he's been successful as a natural bodybuilder, but he has a mental fortitude like no other you know he has a very special and it's like all it's his profession.

Philip Pape: 38:53

You know he studies it, so there's there's kind of an alignment there. Yeah, I think it's important for people to know that, because even what I've seen from clients and myself and you've probably experienced this is even a mild level of dieting and trying to get lean starts to pressure you toward that direction just a bit and you got to question why you're doing this. You really have to question it, because you can get to a plenty good enough physique, well above that point, without having to push it. Yeah, um, it's super important. I mean, I just went back to a bulking phase cause I'm like, I'm done, like this dieting thing I never, I never super enjoy it.

Philip Pape: 39:29

You know it works. You know how to do it. It's mental, Like you said, it's all mental. It's a body doesn't want to be there.

Kevin Palmieri: 39:34

Do you?

Philip Pape: 39:35

struggle with bulking. Do I struggle with bulking? Yeah, do you why? Because I'm a skinny, skinny guy.

Kevin Palmieri: 39:41

No, no, no, no. I mean mentally. Do you struggle with it mentally?

Philip Pape: 39:43

Yeah, no, I love bulking, do you? Do you? Have you found that side? I don't like it, you don't like it. No, I.

Kevin Palmieri: 40:00

Tell me more about and I don't mean it in that way. I was always the guy who had abs, even in high school. I was telling my wife this the other day. I said in high school on the baseball forums, people were accusing me of steroids in high school and I didn't know what the hell I was doing when I was exercising. I had no clue. I have really good genetics, so I've kind of always had abs and for me abs equal successful, that's what everybody's going for. So there's that piece of me right now who I'm bulking. I was 182 today and as I creep towards 185 at five foot six, five foot five, depending on the day, I start to look more and more like a meatball. And there's a piece of me that doesn't like that very much when I'm used to being shredded and vascular and all that. So I understand both. Yeah, alan, my business partner, six foot two, tall and lanky his words, not mine. He doesn't like being lean because for him it reminds him of when he was tall and lanky.

Philip Pape: 40:54

It's very interesting. It's very interesting because, yeah, these thoughts go through my head all the time and again. Anybody following a plan to change a body composition has to wrestle with both sides of the equation. I actually thought you were originally talking about the discomfort of the food side of things, but you're talking about getting fluffy. I actually did a whole podcast episode like why I'm getting fluffy before I get jacked, or something like that. Like a while back, uh, laying it out there because you're right, you have to embrace the other positives about getting bigger and forget that abs are even a, are even, are even a measure. They're not because the abs are gone pretty quickly.

Kevin Palmieri: 41:32

Yeah, and it's not about now, it's about next year.

Philip Pape: 41:37

Yeah.

Kevin Palmieri: 41:37

It's like right, what you're doing right now is not about right now, it's about next year, when yeah, it's like right, what you're doing right now is not about right now, it's about next year, when you do whatever you decide to do. That's what I keep telling myself. I don't just go lift heavy and eat food and stay high on protein and build muscle and then, when you diet down what you do every year, you'll look better. It just doesn't feel like it yet.

Philip Pape: 41:58

Yeah, there's different standards of look, of course, and also if you're in a relationship or what your goals are in life. I'm not trying to chase girls or anything. I've got my, my wife loves me whatever I look like, and some women like bigger guys too. But you know, two more thoughts come to mind on that.

Philip Pape: 42:13

One is that the when you look at bigger guys like powerlifters I'll say modern day powerlifters, not classic powerlifters who really packed on the weight there's this thought that if you can really pack on that muscle and train at that level for a long time and not even worry about cutting, you can vastly change your body composition and just be this bigger, leaner guy and then cut down to much higher weight and have abs, but you're the big, stocky, bulky with muscle type of guy. It takes time though. It takes like a good three to six years probably at least, of solid training to get there. The other thing is just recently the bulking recommendations were updated based on the science, like three new studies that came out that show that we can put on a lot more lean tissue than we thought at an aggressive rate of bulking. So you're going to have a bunch of people dreamer bulking now who maybe go too aggressive, and then they experience what you're talking about.

Kevin Palmieri: 43:07

I'm trying to do like a quarter pound a week Quarter pound a week, which is definitely on the lean end.

Philip Pape: 43:14

Yeah.

Kevin Palmieri: 43:15

I'm trying to do it relative and again, I know my body very well. There's a lot of stuff that goes into it. I respond really well to just a little bit of extra food because I'm so used to being in a deficit. I never bulked before.

Philip Pape: 43:30

I think I bulked one time in my life I didn't know what I was doing. Oh, even as a bodybuilder, you didn't go through an off season to do that. That was the first time.

Kevin Palmieri: 43:37

I ever bulked. I see Yep to do that. That was the first time I ever bolt. I see Yep, I wasn't show ready before I started, but I already had a six pack. I was in really good shape. Then I went and got a coach. Then I dieted down. I lost like 15 pounds and I lost a ton of muscle. Then I bolt and I was like, whoa, this is interesting, I'm super strong and I still have abs, somehow. That was so. That's, it's relatively new. I mean, that was only about six or seven years ago and yeah, and you know what people?

Philip Pape: 44:05

people have never experienced a bulk in that stand. A lot of women fall in that category, just to be totally honest, you've seen it with clients.

Philip Pape: 44:11

I'm of the mind now to encourage more and more folks to be open to it, and if you could time it right, you know, during the winter for example, yeah, it helps. But what I think a lot of people do is they cycle, they cut in bulk too frequently and it just they kind of don't go anywhere and that's almost like staying at your level five. When you're trying to get a level 10, you have to push through something. So actually, good segue to like how do you do that? If you're now you've reached some type of level 10, let's say you got your initial goal in your first year or two of training Does that become your new level five? How do we reassess?

Kevin Palmieri: 44:45

our goals to really keep pushing where we want to go. Yeah, I think as you become more competent, you become less okay with okay. So I think as you become more competent and you see what you're capable of, your average just increases. But I also think you and here's the this is why it's layered but I also think you're willing to let yourself go below your standard, because you also know you can get back above it. There's something about having the belief to essentially look to a degree the way you want. If you have the awareness, you have the work ethic and you have the strategy, it's way easier to do what we're talking about specifically when it comes to bulking. But when you feel like you're in control, I think that's when you can set another goal.

Kevin Palmieri: 45:34

It's almost like in the beginning. The first time I ever got in a car with my mom, I remember thinking to myself how do you drive the car so well? This seems impossible. Like I don't understand. I have taken this for granted. Eventually I got my license and I became a good driver and then I was able to do things that I could never do, like I could talk on the phone. I'm not saying to do this, but I could talk on the phone and drive. Cool, that became sustainable. I told my wife.

Kevin Palmieri: 45:58

Eventually I want to learn how to drift cars. That is something I've always wanted to do. Then that will become sustainable for me and it won't be that much of a challenge anymore. So me driving in a fast car might be boring Again maybe not the best example, but trying to create visualization with it. So, yeah, that as you become more competent, I think that you become in more control and when you have more belief, you're able to take bigger chances. Yeah, so if you have a level seven belief seven out of 10, and your own unique ability to create the physique you want, you might set a level nine goal, which for you is I'm going to look the best I ever have and maybe I'm ready to do a photo shoot or something. So yeah, I think as you build belief, your ability to set goals increases, because it's not as scary as it used to be. That's huge.

Philip Pape: 46:46

That's huge, and you can build that belief even with a fairly sustainable level of maintenance. Where I'm going with that is when somebody learns that they can control their body composition, even if they don't lose or gain. Even that's powerful, because so many people feel like they have no control at all. Right, like they just I'm going to gain weight constantly because age and everything else. I think that's super powerful. And I'm also thinking of self-determination theory, which has three components agency right, the ability to make your own choice. Relatedness like there's community. And competence right, and that's what you're getting at. Is that confidence that if I do this input, I'm going to produce this output. I've done it, so now I can go this other direction. That's kind of crazy to most people, like bulking. It's exactly what I'm thinking. I'm like I can gain 30 pounds knowing I could lose 40 if I had to. Yeah, so super powerful and liberating.

Kevin Palmieri: 47:33

I can imagine, like you said, I think for females specifically, bulking is hard, because if you don't and again, I'm not saying this, this is a fact but if you don't know how you got to where you got in terms of your leanness and the way your figure is, the last thing you want to do is lose that, because if it seems like it happened by accident, the last thing you're going to do is do something to the opposite front on purpose. Yes, so it makes it makes. It makes total sense.

Philip Pape: 47:58

I can completely understand if you, if you could dip your toes a little bit into the fat loss side of the equation, be like okay, I see how this works, but I don't like dieting, so let's, we've proven it.

Lisa: 48:07

Now let's go the other way Of course that happens a lot.

Philip Pape: 48:10

That happens a lot. You know, my goal with every client is to convince them to stop dieting after they start dieting.

Kevin Palmieri: 48:16

I respect it and you have. You have far more experience and feet on the ground in that than I do, for sure.

Philip Pape: 48:23

Oh man, this has been great. This has been a fun conversation, like pulling on so many threads for folks.

Kevin Palmieri: 48:27

I've enjoyed it.

Philip Pape: 48:28

I learned a lot. It's been fun. So you know what's coming my. My last question is just is there a question you wish I had asked that we didn't cover today, and if so, what would your answer be?

Kevin Palmieri: 48:37

Yeah. What is the honest truth about consistency that you're afraid to share but you think would be valuable? That would be the question. So when I was messing up in the gym and I wasn't very consistent for lack of better phrasing I did what we call the $100 habit. I went to my wife and I gave her a $100 bill and I said if I don't go to the gym for seven days in a row, I want you to rip this up in front of me. And she said there's no way I'm going to do that. And I said it's already done in my head. The pain of me seeing you rip up $100 in front of me is far greater than the pain of me going to the gym for the next seven days. It worked so well. If I just had we, it's a commitment device. That's what it's called. It's called commitment device. If I always had a commitment device, I would never miss.

Kevin Palmieri: 49:27

I think we're afraid to put ourselves under that pressure though I'm not saying you should necessarily but the reason when you're doing a bodybuilding show you don't miss is because you know you're getting on stage in your undies and you're either going to suffer now or you're going to get on stage and say, darn, I really, I really wish this went differently. So creating some level of necessity and some level of pressure could be positive. Just make sure you're doing it in the right amount, based on where you are. I knew I could go to the gym seven times. It's six minutes away. I make my own schedule. Get your ass together, kev. For you it might be three times, it might be one time, it might be if I don't pull my workout clothes out of the basement, like I've been saying I'm going to do.

Kevin Palmieri: 50:10

We don't get to go on date night this week, something like that right or if I don't get my running shoes out, I'm going to have to donate to a cause I don't believe in. That's one that works really, really, really well. So, yeah, something like that is usually pretty beneficial.

Philip Pape: 50:24

That's a recurring theme actually that I've heard from experts who talk about, you know, motivation being driven by more commitment than anything else, some sort of commitment, and I was just thinking, like this bulking phase I'm going through, I really want to put together a whole story and videos and show that I got from here to there and pushed all my lifts up and it's kind of a commitment to. I've got to stick with this crazy volume on my legs that is killing me to get there. Okay, cause I know so. Anyway, if you're listening, like, take what Kevin's saying and come up with a commitment device. It could be a date on the calendar that something's happening and there's no judgment, right. I mean it could be going to the beach and wanting to look good on the beach. It could be a wedding photo shoot or, like you said, any day-to-day, week-to-week commitment. So good, one man.

Philip Pape: 51:10

I appreciate it very much. I appreciate it very much. All right, man. So it's been a lot of fun, as always. I want people to be able to find you the best place. I know you're all over the place. I'll give them your private cell phone and they can call you.

Lisa: 51:21

But give me a reality.

Philip Pape: 51:23

Where do you want them to reach out?

Kevin Palmieri: 51:24

to. I just give out my email. My email is Kevin at next level universe dot com. If you have questions about anything, feel free to to reach out. Anything I could do to add value I yeah, I don't know what specifically it would be, because you know Philip's the the fitness engineer for sure. But you want to talk about podcasting or mindset or habits, whatever, I'm happy, I'm always a message away.

Philip Pape: 51:46

I'd love to chat Kevin's modest. He uh undersells himself, but I'll sell. I'll sell him for you guys. He's a great guy. He's a kind person too, A very good person, Um, and I genuinely mean that. So great to know you, Great to have you on here. I'm so glad we did this. Thanks for coming on Like.

Kevin Palmieri: 52:01

I appreciate you having me You're wonderful and anything I can do to add value, you know I'm always down. Talk soon, buddy.

The #1 Reason to Eat More Carbs (Material Elasticity) | Ep 249

If you've been told that protein is all you need to protect your hard-earned muscle mass, you're missing a crucial piece of the muscle-building puzzle.

Learn how the engineering concept of Material Elasticity reveals the hidden superpower of carbs!
 
The often-vilified carbohydrate macro has a superpower that prevents muscle breakdown, especially during fat loss.

Whether you're building muscle or trying to get lean, understanding this overlooked benefit of carbs will transform your nutrition approach forever.

To optimize your carb intake for maximum muscle growth, download my recently updated (and always free) Muscle-Building Nutrition Blueprint or go to witsandweights.com/free

Main Takeaways:

• How carbs protect muscle mass (like the Robin to protein's Batman)

• Why you WANT spikes in insulin if you lift weights

• When to eat carbs to maximize their effects for muscle

• The true effects of low-carb and keto diets on muscle

Why Carbs Are Your Secret Weapon Against Muscle Loss (Anti-Catabolic Science)

If you've fallen for the "carbs are bad" myth or think protein is all you need for muscle preservation, you're missing out on one of the most powerful tools in your nutrition arsenal. Let's use engineering principles to understand why carbs might be exactly what you need for better muscle retention and faster recovery.

The Hidden Power of Carbohydrates for Muscle Preservation

Most people understand that carbs fuel performance and provide energy. But there's a crucial mechanism that rarely gets discussed: their anti-catabolic effects. Using the engineering concept of material elasticity, we can better understand how carbs protect our muscles from breakdown.

Understanding Material Elasticity in Muscle Preservation

How Engineering Principles Apply to Muscle Protection

Just like a metal spring can compress under force and return to its original shape, our muscles need to maintain their structure despite constant stress. This ability to withstand stress without permanent deformation is crucial for muscle preservation.

The Three Ways Carbs Shield Your Muscles

1. Insulin's Anti-Catabolic Effect: When you eat carbs, they trigger insulin release, which blocks protein breakdown pathways

2. Protein-Sparing Benefits: Adequate carbs prevent your body from converting amino acids into glucose through gluconeogenesis

3. Glycogen's Protective Role: Full glycogen stores reduce cortisol and other catabolic hormones

Strategic Carb Implementation for Maximum Muscle Protection

Optimal Timing Strategies

• Prioritize carbs around training sessions

• Maintain baseline carbs even on rest days

• Consider increasing carbs during fat loss phases

• Don't sacrifice carbs for excessive protein

Why Low-Carb Approaches Can Backfire

When you eliminate carbs, you remove your body's primary defense against muscle breakdown. This is especially problematic during calorie deficits, where muscle preservation becomes even more critical.

Practical Applications for Your Training

Four Key Implementation Strategies

1. Training Day Focus: Concentrate up to half your daily carbs around workouts

2. Recovery Support: Keep carbs consistent on rest days for optimal recovery

3. Fat Loss Phases: Don't cut carbs too low - they're crucial for muscle retention

4. Balanced Approach: Remember that both protein AND carbs play vital roles

Engineering Your Nutrition Plan

Think of carbs as structural support for your muscles. Just as engineers design materials with both strength and elasticity in mind, your nutrition plan needs to address both muscle building (through protein) and muscle preservation (through strategic carb intake).

The Bottom Line on Carbs and Muscle

Carbohydrates aren't just fuel - they're a crucial tool for protecting your hard-earned muscle mass. By understanding their anti-catabolic effects, you can make more informed decisions about your nutrition, whether you're building muscle or trying to get lean.

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Transcript

Philip Pape: 0:01

If you've been told that protein is all you need to protect your hard-earned muscle mass, or that carbs just provide energy and performance and you can cut them out without consequences, I think you're missing a crucial piece of the larger muscle-building puzzle. Today, I'm revealing the number one reason to eat more carbs, and it's not what most people think. Using an engineering concept called material elasticity, I'll show you how carbs can do this one amazing thing. That is perhaps its biggest superpower. If you care about building muscle and fat loss, welcome to Wits and Weights, the podcast that blends evidence and engineering to help you build smart, efficient systems to achieve your dream physique. I'm your host, philip Pape, and today we're exploring why carbs those beautiful carbs might be the most underrated nutrients for muscle preservation, and how understanding their anti-catabolic effects we're going to define that term in a second could transform your approach to building muscle and losing fat. Before we get into that, I have just released my new and improved muscle building nutrition blueprint totally free. It's a guide that I created maybe a year or two ago after one of my muscle building phases, and I've since upgraded it and updated it based on the latest bulking recommendations according to the scientific literature. It shows you exactly how to use carbs strategically to bulk at the optimal rate and maximize your gains, which will go perfectly well with this episode. So to download your free copy, just go to witsandweightscom slash free, or click the link in the show notes. Again, that's my muscle building nutrition blueprint. It lays everything out from start to finish, with examples of setting up your muscle building phase. Go to witsandweightscom slash free, or click the link in my show notes. So let's start with the topic today, which is how material elasticity helps us understand muscle breakdown. But, more importantly, it's why you should not be afraid of carbs and a reason that is underrated or even not well known for why you probably want to eat more carbs. And when I say carbs, I'm talking about carbohydrates, I'm talking about a macro that covers a vast amount of food sources, and there is a powerful effect that carbs have that people don't talk about. They do talk about its source of insulin response and glucose for the muscles. They talk about it for performance and recovery. They talk about it for having a more variety of foods and fiber-containing foods with nutrients and plants and all that fun stuff. But there's one thing that gets talked about not as much and we're going to get into that and then, finally, I'm going to take that information and give you some strategies so you can apply that to your nutrition plan. So let's talk about the engineering concept and why that's important to what we're talking about today.

Philip Pape: 3:13

There's something called elasticity. Elasticity you might have heard it in the context of your brain development, for example. You might have heard it in terms of materials like a rubber band. Have heard it in terms of materials like a rubber band. Elasticity refers to a material's ability to withstand stress without getting deformed, right, without get permanently altered. So think about a metal spring. It can compress under force, but then it returns to its original shape, as long as you don't quote, pass its elastic limit. And as a child, I really loved my pogo stick yes, I am that level nerd and that ability to come back to its original shape is the thing that allowed you to spring up into the air.

Philip Pape: 3:52

So our muscles face similar stresses during training, during strength training, but also when you're dieting, because of all the shuttling of resources and your body trying to stay in homeostasis. Your muscles need to maintain their structure despite the constant breakdown and rebuilding of tissue. Right, that's what's happening in our body. We're always breaking stuff down. We're breaking muscle mass down, for example, and we're rebuilding it. And this is where most people, I'll say, not necessarily get it wrong, but they kind of oversimplify and they miss part of the picture. They focus solely on protein for building muscle, forgetting about the breakdown side of the equation. Preventing breakdown it's great to ramp up your ability to add new tissue, but if the other side of the equation is outpacing that, or at least keeping up with it in terms of breaking down tissue, you're going to have a real problem, right? Because at best you might be able to preserve muscle, um, and at worst you might lose muscle.

Philip Pape: 4:51

So here's where carbohydrates become so so crucial and why I am, uh, totally in love. I have a love fest with carbs to the point where that is my um, happiest source of YouTube trolls when this stuff goes YouTube and many of you are listening on audio. But go there and just type in carbs to my YouTube channel and find one of the episodes about carbs and just look at the comments. Okay, people have a very emotional attachment to carbs. If you are listening to me right now, I'm going to be giving you tons of permission to just eat the heck out of your carbs to the level that you need, to the level that supports you and to the level that you want, and not worry about demonizing them anymore.

Philip Pape: 5:28

Carbs don't cause you to get fat or any of the other myths that have been perpetuated. Carbs are incredible. They're supportive. There's nothing negative about them. What's negative is over-consuming food, right, just over-consuming to the point of excess, and it has nothing to do with carbs. What's negative is being sedentary. What's negative is not training. So that was my side rant.

Philip Pape: 5:48

But when you eat carbs, they trigger insulin release. Oh no insulin. Oh yes insulin. We love that because insulin is a powerful anti-catabolic hormone. What does that mean? Anti-catabolic means anti-breakdown. Okay, trigger insulin. Insulin is an anti-catabolic hormone. We love insulin if we are training, if we're active and we're trying to build muscle.

Philip Pape: 6:17

Just like a well-engineered material needs the support to maintain its elastic properties, your muscles need adequate carbs to prevent breakdown and retain their properties. You've built them up. You've gone to the gym, you've taken so much time to give them the TLC right. You're doing those heavy squats that you may not be the biggest fan of, but you know how effective and powerful they are and helpful. And you've gone through all that work. So why do you want to give it up by not supporting, by allowing them to get broken down right? So let me break down the three main ways that carbs protect your muscles. First, insulin blocks protein breakdown pathways. When insulin is elevated from eating carbs, it literally shuts down the mechanisms that would otherwise break down muscle tissue, so important. This is why we need to flip the frame on insulin as not a bad thing, but a very good thing that we take advantage of. Second, carbs spare protein. When you don't have adequate carbs, your body converts amino acids into glucose through gluconeogenesis, literally breaking down muscle tissue for energy.

Philip Pape: 7:27

Now, I don't want to overstate this or make this a fear monger type of thing. Like well, so does that mean I have to have like 400 grams of carbs or else my protein starts getting broken down? No, quite the opposite. It's when carbs are just abysmally low that this can be a problem, and usually it's more of a problem in a dieting phase when just overall energy is low. When you are eating in a surplus, there's a lot more wiggle room Like you can have. You can jack up your protein and have moderate carbs. You can jack up your carbs with moderate protein. There is a lot of wiggle room. So I'm not saying you have to like stuff yourself with carbs, but I'm saying when the carbs go very low, that's when the issues start to happen.

Philip Pape: 8:04

Third is that carbs replenish glycogen, which has its own anti-catabolic effects, because full glycogen stores send a signal that reduce your cortisol and other catabolic hormones. Again, it's your body saying, hey, I'm in a good state here, I've got enough energy, even though you're slamming the heck out of these muscles through your lifting, I'm good because you gave me all those carbs. So that is why low-carb diets, keto diets, often lead to faster muscle loss in a calorie deficit and much lower muscle gain in a calorie surplus. Part of it is because you're removing your body's primary defense against muscle breakdown by keeping those carbs so low. It's a matter of degrees. Could you build muscle or prevent muscle breakdown on low carbs? Yes, is it harder? Yes, and that's kind of the thing I'm saying. Why make it harder, unless you have to for some reason or you want to, but if someone's telling you you need to? That's the problem that I have in the industry with when we talk about spreading misinformation. So how do we apply this right?

Philip Pape: 9:13

I want to give you four practical strategies, super simple. First, prioritize carbs around your training. This is one of the best things you can do. It creates an immediate anti-catabolic environment when your muscles need it most, so as much as half of your carbs might be around your training. The lower calories you're on, the more crucial. This is to do to the point where, if you're on a very severe deficit, almost all your carbs might be around your training. Okay, so just keep that in mind. When you're in a surplus, you know you probably have a lot of carbs coming in anyway. If you're in a balanced diet, so you still want carbs around your workout, but it's going to be a smaller percentage, okay.

Philip Pape: 9:49

Second, maintain baseline carbs, even on rest days. I'm not a big fan of calorie cycling, so the way I like to frame it is if you think it's super helpful to jack up your carbs on training days, you're now taking away from your rest days when the recovery occurs, when the muscle breakdown would occur. So think about that. It's not just that you need your carbs during the training session, you also need them for the anti-catabolic environment outside your training session, and so I like to distribute carbs fairly evenly day to day Now, on non-training days, when you eat those carbs, is less important. That's the main difference, all right.

Philip Pape: 10:30

Third, you can increase your carbs during fat loss. Now, this might sound counterintuitive because the calories are low, the protein is high and don't carbs, by definition, come down. Yes, but I have found with many clients who really like their protein and have become quite consistent, their protein actually ends up being maybe even higher than they need and it sacrifices carbs, or their fats are higher and it sacrifices carbs. And what we do is we tweak it. We say, all right, let's drop protein by 20 grams and increase your carbs by 20 grams, and let's shuttle those carbs right before your workout. And boom, all of a sudden, more energy in their workout. They feel better, they don't get shaky, they don't get um, you know, they don't feel winded or wiped after the workout. And it just changes the whole equation from feeling kind of miserable and like am I doing the right thing? To hey, I can get through this, no problem, like I've got the energy to go. To hey, I can get through this, no problem, like I've got the energy to go.

Philip Pape: 11:23

So think about whether your carbs are actually too low, even though you are trying to anchor your protein, there could be a little trade-off that you can make, and it might be with the fats, right, like maybe your fat is too high and you can bring that down and give it to carbs, all right. Fourth strategy Don't fall for the protein only advice, like there are some people that all they talk about is protein, or protein and fiber, and I've done that sometimes just because people don't get enough. And, of course, protein is crucial to build muscle, but carbs play an equally important role in preventing the breakdown and that's the message I want you to take home today. All right, so here's something fascinating, right To tie all this together. That ties it back to our concept from engineering.

Philip Pape: 12:05

When we design materials to withstand stress, we don't just think about the strength, but on the resilience of the material, the plasticity right of the material, the elasticity, its ability to resist being deformed, because if it's too hard it's just going to break, but if it has a little bit of give in it, right, it won't. So in a similar way, building muscle is not just making this scaffolding out of protein and just focusing on one side of the equation. It's creating the overall environment that prevents the breakdown and resilience and elasticity by focusing on the carb side as well, the anti-catabolic side, and I see this all the time with clients who will get into a fat loss phase and will start to see a little bit of lean mass loss, which is, it's, very unlikely the way we have it set up. But if you're losing strength rapidly and it's faster than you expect, it could be because the carbs are too low, right. And you're like why is that? Well, increase the carb intake, keep the calories the same, right. So you're gonna make a trade-off and support yourself in the gym. What happens? Well, now you can lift a few more reps, or you can have that extra reserve to really hit the maximal strength on your lifts. And now you're not gonna lose the strength as quickly, if at all, for a while at least, right. And that could accelerate the fat loss, because now you're supporting your metabolism and you're supporting your muscle. You're giving yourself the maximum training stimulus. Isn't that cool Like that? That's the interesting part about it is that increasing carbs during fat loss could improve your fat loss, all right.

Philip Pape: 13:41

So, as we wrap up, let's recap again why carbs are your muscle's best friend, all right. Number one they trigger insulin, which is anti-catabolic. Number two, they prevent protein breakdown that would otherwise occur through gluconeogenesis. Three, they maintain glycogen stores that protect your muscle. And then, fourth, they create an optimal environment, both in fat loss and muscle building, to preserve and build muscle.

Philip Pape: 14:07

So the next time anyone out there a fitfluencer, someone you follow on YouTube wherever says, cut carbs and you'll get better results, remember that you might be sacrificing a very, very powerful tool for actually preserving or building that muscle. All right, so if you want to put all this into action and get some exact numbers and rates for you, download my new and improved muscle building nutrition blueprint. Go to witsandweightscom, click the link in the show notes and I'll show you exactly how to implement all of the nutrition strategies to build muscle. Stay lean, do it at the right rate, not gain too much fat and uh, and be totally strong. Jacked lean, tone whatever word you're going for. All right, until next time, keep using your wits lifting those weights and remember understanding the science behind carbs can unlock your results. This is Philip Pape and you've been listening, as always, to wits and weights, and I'll talk to you next time.

How Social Media and TikTok Are Putting Your Health At Risk | Ep 248

Try our new FREE calculators for Energy Expenditure (TDEE) for fat loss and muscle building, body fat percentage, and more at witsandweights.com/calculators

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Is mindless phone scrolling harming your health? Could social media platforms be rewiring your brain against your fitness progress? How can you turn your smartphone into a fitness ally instead of an enemy?

Philip (@witsandweights) ventures into the hidden ways social media impacts your health, from disrupted sleep and increased cortisol to its effects on your posture, hunger hormones, and workout recovery. Using shocking research-based and scientific studies, Philip lays out a roadmap to reclaim your attention and use your phone as a powerful fitness tool.

Discover strategies to limit distractions, curate your content, and even integrate social media use with mindful habits. With the right approach, technology can be harnessed as a tool for empowerment, enabling you to navigate the digital world effectively and reach your desired fitness outcomes.

Today, you’ll learn all about:

1:34 New Calorie intake body fat calculators
2:16 Social media addiction and sleep disruption
6:28 How scrolling affects hunger hormones and mindless eating
8:23 Understanding “Tech neck” and NEAT deficit
11:47 Social media’s impact on workout focus and performance
14:01 Toxic comparison syndrome and fitness misinformation
18:16 Turning your phone into a tool for education and education
22:33 Actionable tips: batching, environment design, pattern interrupts, and curating content
28:14 Free calculators for nutrition, physique, and more!
29:42 Outro

Episode resources:

• Try our new FREE calculators for Energy Expenditure (TDEE) for fat loss and muscle building, body fat percentage, and more at witsandweights.com/calculators

The Dark Side of Social Media: How Your Phone Is Sabotaging Your Health and Fitness

Ever noticed how a quick check of Instagram between sets turns into 15 minutes of mindless scrolling? You're not alone. Recently uncovered documents show TikTok users can become addicted after just 35 minutes of use. That's less time than your average workout – and the implications for your health and fitness goals are more serious than you might think.

The Science Behind Social Media's Health Impact

Disrupted Sleep Chemistry

Recent research from the Sleep Foundation reveals that nighttime social media use suppresses melatonin production for twice as long as regular screen time. This isn't just about feeling tired – melatonin plays a crucial role in muscle recovery and fat loss. When you scroll before bed, you're actively working against your body's repair processes.

Hormonal Havoc

Every notification triggers a small stress response, elevating cortisol levels throughout the day. This chronic elevation interferes with:

• Protein synthesis

• Fat storage patterns

• Immune system function

• Recovery between training sessions

The NEAT Deficit

Studies show high social media users take 40% fewer steps daily compared to moderate users. This reduction in Non-Exercise Activity Thermogenesis (NEAT) significantly impacts your daily calorie burn and body composition goals.

Physical Consequences for Your Training

Compromised Movement Patterns

That "tech neck" from scrolling isn't just uncomfortable – it creates a cascade of muscular compensations affecting:

• Shoulder mobility

• Squat form

• Overall posture

• Training performance

Reduced Focus and Force Production

Heavy social media users demonstrate decreased max force production during resistance training. Your mind is still processing that scrolling even as you're trying to focus on your lifts.

The Psychological Impact

Rewired Reward Pathways

New research in Nature shows short-form video content literally reshapes your brain's reward pathways, making it harder to:

• Focus on long-term goals

• Maintain consistent habits

• Find satisfaction in gradual progress

The Comparison Trap

The fitness industry on social media creates what researchers call "toxic comparison syndrome" through:

• Unrealistic transformations

• Misleading before/afters

• Manipulated images

• Sponsored content disguised as results

Taking Back Control

Rather than deleting all your apps, focus on making technology work for you:

Strategic Implementation

1. Set specific times for social media use

2. Move apps off your home screen

3. Turn off notifications

4. Use built-in app limits

Pattern Interrupts

Before opening any social media app, ask yourself:

• What am I looking for?

• Is this purposeful or mindless?

• Could this time be better spent?

Content Curation

Be ruthless about who you follow. If someone's content makes you feel worse about your progress, unfollow immediately – regardless of their popularity.

The Power of Redirection

Transform your phone from a distraction into a tool for progress:

• Track workouts systematically

• Log nutrition data

• Monitor progress metrics

• Learn from verified experts

• Record and analyze form

Remember: Your phone isn't inherently your enemy – it's simply a tool. Its impact depends entirely on how you use it.

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Transcript

Philip Pape: 0:01

If you're like most people, you check your phone over a hundred times a day, spending hours mindlessly scrolling through social media feeds and short form videos. You know it's probably not healthy, but here's what you might not realize this habit is actively working against your fitness goals in ways that go far beyond just wasting time. Today, we're exposing the science behind how platforms like TikTok and Instagram are damaging your health from disrupting your sleep chemistry and hormone production to destroying your ability to build and maintain lean muscle mass. You'll discover the shocking new research about how quickly these apps can alter your brain function and, more importantly, how to reclaim control of your attention and put that phone time to work for your fitness goals instead of against them. Welcome to Wits and Weights, the podcast that blends evidence and engineering to help you build smart, efficient systems to achieve your dream physique. I'm your host, philip Pape, and I want to lay out for you a familiar scenario. Let's say you grab your phone to do something helpful, like set up your next workout or log your food, but before you know it, you're 30 minutes deep into fitness influencer content on Instagram or TikTok. That's probably making you feel worse about your own progress, not to mention wasting time. Now. If that sounds familiar, stick around, because today I'm discussing how social media, especially the addictive short form video platforms, isn't just distracting you. It is actively sabotaging your health and physique goals through multiple mechanisms.

Philip Pape: 1:34

Now, real quick, before I get into it, I want to let you know about some brand new calculators that I just added to the website to estimate calorie intake, body fat and more, and, I think, a very smart way to use your smartphone instead of scrolling social media. I spent a lot of time recently putting these together for you. I thought they would be really useful. So just click the link in my show notes or go to witsandweightscom and click calculators in the menu to try those out. And each one has an article below it that explains what everything means. So a little bit of education there. And and each one has an article below it that explains what everything means. So a little bit of education there. And I tried to add something unique to the calculators that you won't find in others on the internet. So, again, just click the link in the show notes or go to witsandweightscom and click calculators in the menu.

Philip Pape: 2:16

All right, let's get into today's topic about social media. Let's start with something that I heard about recently in the news from previously hidden documents from TikTok. Their own research, leaked on the internet, shows that users can become addicted to the platform after viewing just 260 videos. Now that sounds like a lot, but you know how short those are. It only takes 35 minutes of cumulative viewing time. So now think about that.

Philip Pape: 2:45

In less time than it takes to train, to do your workout right, or to eat a meal, or even prepare a meal, these apps like TikTok can fundamentally rewire your brain's reward system. Now, it's probably not a huge surprise. I myself have often been caught, you know, on my phone starting to scroll or even doom scroll, and it's because I started to use my phone for some other reason. Or maybe I'm between my lifts, my sets in the gym, and you just get caught down this rabbit hole and, yeah, it wastes time, but it seems like it's even more insidious than that. We're going to get into that today. The other thing that strikes me as I was putting this together is think about how long it takes to develop a positive habit right, like just going to the gym. We know it takes anywhere from three weeks to even a couple months to really get consistent at something when you apply yourself every day and it starts to compound, whereas the opposite is true here. Something like TikTok or Instagram or wherever you're getting your short form videos are like, immediately giving you that dopamine hit and starting to rewire your brain and make it effectively a quite negative habit very quickly. And the damage that comes from this goes far deeper than just addiction. Right, you've heard that before. Okay, fine, you get addicted.

Philip Pape: 3:58

Recent research from the Sleep Foundation shows that nighttime social media use suppresses melatonin production for twice as long as regular screen time. Now, think about that. It's not just that you're on your screen, right? I always advise folks, especially my clients, to cut out the screen at least a half hour to an hour before try to cut out the blue light. But it's not just the screen time itself, it's specifically, specifically, social media, probably because of the way it stimulates your brain. It's very different. And it's not just about being tired, right, melatonin itself is a crucial hormone for muscle recovery, for fat loss.

Philip Pape: 4:33

All the things that we know good sleep helps with and poor sleep doesn't are tied up in this. And so when you're scrolling social media before bed, you are amplifying that negative, that working against your body's natural repair process. And I'll tell you what for many people, sleep is the missing ingredient when it comes to building muscle, losing fat, eating more food all the things that people struggle with. Now I use a sleep tracking ring. Right, I use an aura ring, like many of you probably use, and it shows you this data and I would encourage you to start looking at that. Go check out my recent episode on sleep metrics. I also have an older episode on HRV specifically. But start to tie that data together with using social media right before you go to bed. I know for a fact that if I'm just like staring at my phone on Instagram or something crazy like that, looking at the silly reels or any silly posts right before bed, I'm just not going to get as high quality sleep, and so you probably aren't either, and the study backs this up. And blue light glasses are great for cutting out blue light, but it isn't the complete solution because it doesn't prevent the stimulation that you get in your brain from the social media.

Philip Pape: 5:37

And then there's the cortisol right Every little notification, every like, every comment that you get. It triggers a small stress response. Now, each individual hit might seem insignificant, but think about how often and frequent. We do this throughout the day and studies show that frequent social media users maintain elevated cortisol levels compared to less frequent users throughout the day, specifically when accounting for the other variables. And so any chronic elevation in our cortisol is going to interfere with things like protein synthesis and belly fat storage. It's going to compromise your immune system, and cortisol is not the boogeyman here. It never is, despite what influencers say. It's that cortisol is an indicator of something else going on, in this case the frequent spike to your stress response.

Philip Pape: 6:24

The other thing is that made me think about stress is when you go to the gym, how many of you are scrolling between your sets. I've done this. I try to use my phone occasionally sparingly in the gym, but I can't. I won't say I can't help myself. I guess that's the addiction part it's more of. I'm trying to be productive and efficient. And now I realized, ah, maybe that's backfiring a little bit on my recovery between my sets, because when you're now kind of keeping that stress level high and you're distracted, you're not mindful, you're not in the moment and physically and physiologically you're potentially not recovering as much, which means you can't get as much out of your workout. So keep all these in mind, because they all play together in what we're trying to do here. Now.

Philip Pape: 7:09

What's particularly concerning is the impact on hunger hormones. Research published in the Journal of Behavioral Addictions found that excessive social media use disrupts both ghrelin and leptin. Those are your hunger and satiety hormones, and this also explains why mindless scrolling leads to mindless eating. That is a thing, but it gets worse because the constant dopamine hits from social media can blunt your body's natural reward response to healthy behaviors, like training, like proper nutrition. And now you're just making it harder to feel and connect mindfully that eating that apple really feels really great. But now you've blunted that natural rewards response because you're getting these hits over here from social media, just like you do from, say, very sugary foods, right, or calorie-dense foods same idea. And all these levels of addictions and brain chemistry all work in a similar way, right, and so you might notice, for example and this is worth documenting that your scrolling, that your social media use, is connected with snacking, with overeating, with overconsumption. Ah, really cool potential correlation there. So pay attention to that.

Philip Pape: 8:12

So now I want to talk about what this is doing to your body directly. We talked about the physiological impacts, the negative impacts, or I'm sorry. We talked about, yeah, the impacts. Now I want to talk about the physical impacts, and you've probably heard of something called tech neck or scroll neck, and that's bad right, but the implications go beyond posture. That's a posture thing, but when you're hunched over your phone, you think about it. You're hunched over your phone, you're not only straining your neck, you're actually creating a bunch of compensations down the chain, muscular compensations that affect everything from your shoulder mobility, your squat form.

Philip Pape: 8:44

Just the other day, we were having a group call in Whitson Weights Physique University which, if you haven't joined, why haven't you? It's the best deal in town. And anyway, in one of our group calls we were talking about how pain in one area of your body, like, for example, golfer's elbow medial epicondylitis it's called right Could be because of your squat grip, could have nothing to do with the elbow itself. Similarly, a back issue could have to do with your neck, and so thinking about posture and then being strong in parts of your body that support your posture, like, for example, your hips and your glutes, is a good way to compensate for this. But being hunched over your phone and thinking about your posture when you use social media could be impacting a lot of physical issues that then cause pain or discomfort when you train, for example, or when you recover from training. So a recent study in the International Journal of Environmental Research and Public Health found that heavy social media users showed significant reductions in thoracic mobility and increased forward head posture.

Philip Pape: 9:46

Right, and this correlates with the hunched over thing and it impacts your ability to perform movements as effectively as you would otherwise, or you have to compensate for them. Think of overhead presses and pull-ups. You're kind of tightened up like a lobster, I want to say. And really we want to have that athletic posture, we want to be open, we want to be strong and neutral to do a lot of these movements. Now, if you strength train, if you go to the gym, fortunately that will help you significantly in these areas, but we don't want to make it worse with the way that we use our phones.

Philip Pape: 10:17

And then, maybe perhaps most concerning I've said that multiple times most concerning today, I guess, is what I call the NEAT deficit. I've said that multiple times. Most concerning today, I guess, is what I call the NEAT deficit. Now, neat, non-exercise activity thermogenesis, that is, all the calories that you burn through your normal daily movement, everything other than structured exercise. Right, you're NEAT walking, for example, fidgeting, doing your chores, et cetera and research shows that high social media users take up to 40% fewer steps per day compared to moderate users. Wow, like, think about that. We're not even talking about different types of jobs or different types of exercise. We're talking about just the fact that you use more social media means you're just going to walk less.

Philip Pape: 10:59

And we know that NEAT is one of the biggest levers we have for the amount of calories we burn and our body composition and how much we can eat. But we also know and I talk about this all the time is one of my favorite hacks to increase steps is if you're going to use social media, go ahead and what they call, I guess, habit stacking there's another name I'm thinking of but go ahead and pace around while you're on social media. I mean, if you're going to be on your phone anyway doing that, you might as well be doing it while walking, and just you could pace around your couch in the house. It doesn't even have to have a long runway. So I guess that's my way of kind of compensating for that statistic is using that time rather than saying just stop using all social media, which is great. We want to reduce it. It's how can we combine a good habit with this maybe not so great habit?

Philip Pape: 11:47

And then, when you go to the gym, when you train, the residual effects of social media affect your performance in some way. We want to be aware of this because studies show again, heavy social media users demonstrate reduced focus. They have reduced attention span, which leads to decreased max force production during resistance training. Can you believe it? It's so amazing how these tie together. Your mind is literally still processing all of that scrolling, even as you're trying to focus on your lifts. So mindfulness is a big element here, and this sounds like a big doom and gloom, but you can see I've dropped a little bit of a hint so far of some things we can do, and we're going to get into more of that in a bit. So keep listening, keep watching. So I guess my challenge to you with that piece, now that I come to think about it, is phone-free training sessions. All right, I have that in my notes here because I didn't want to forget Just not having your phone with you at all. So if you go to the gym, if you could just leave it in your. So that's the physical impacts.

Philip Pape: 12:53

And now let's talk about maybe the most insidious impact, and that is the psychological effects of social media. New research published in the journal Nature shows that frequent exposure to short form video you know what we're talking about. We're talking about reels, which are very popular on TikTok. They're also on Instagram. You even see them on Facebook and other platforms that exposure to these reshapes your brain's reward pathways, reshapes them. We talked about the dopamine hits, but you're actually changing the chemistry of the brain and this makes it harder to focus on long-term goals like building muscle and losing fat and body composition and training consistently and eating consistently and tracking all the things that require consistent effort over time.

Philip Pape: 13:36

And the fitness industry on social media is particularly a problem, right, because we're bombarded with unrealistic transformations, misleading before and after photos I mean the vast majority of before and afters, you see are probably misleading, either because they're not even the actual client of the person or, in a more subtle way, the pictures themselves are taken in a way that's misleading. There's promotions for things like supplements or specific diets, and you're just bombarded with these, and a lot of them are sponsored, a lot of them are paid advertisements, and all of this creates what researchers call toxic comparison syndrome. Instagram, I know, when I go to the search tab, I almost try to avoid that completely. If I look at even one or two people with a decent physique, all of a sudden I see more photos with even more outrageously, you know, quote unquote ideal physiques. And now you're constantly measuring yourself against these heavily filtered, carefully curated, often manipulated images of what look like Greco-Roman gods, right? Men and women. And it actually shifts how we establish a baseline for what even beautiful looks like, which is really sad, right? Because if you just go out into the real world and watch regular people walking around, you're like this is two different planets, right? Two different planets like social versus the real world.

Philip Pape: 15:02

And then there's the gender differences and all this pressure. Now, I'm a man, I'm not a woman. I can't identify with being a woman, but I have probably two-thirds of my clients and listeners are women. You're probably many of you listening right now are women. You know that there are obviously there's double standards, but not only that. There's just such a high level of pressure on social media with women, and we know studies that have looked at the effect on teenagers. I mean you've heard it all before and it's a problem, right.

Philip Pape: 15:27

And then you have the transformation stuff when you see the before and after. Now I follow some very good, very smart, science-based coaches. Some are friends of mine, some have been on the show or vice versa, and some I just follow because they really have their stuff together and they will show transformations and, yes, they'll show before and after photos, but they're very realistic and I almost think are people going to be turned off by the fact that it's not as dramatic as some of the manipulated ones. Right, I always think about that, even with my own clients. Like I hardly ever use transformation photos for that very reason. I'd rather use their own words, you know, video and maybe the numbers as well to show factually what's going on. But that doesn't emotionally connect with people, as showing somebody go from a certain body type to this ripped, shredded, whatever body type, and that's a problem. So always be skeptical when you look at this one, because the real transformations they take time and effort. They're not as visually dramatic as you would expect. But the results to individuals in terms of their energy, their mood, how they feel about themselves, their confidence and, yes, their looks from where they were before are still dramatic, and the fact that we expect so much more based on social media is really a shame.

Philip Pape: 16:44

And then another thing that's concerning is tied to this the spread of fitness misinformation, which is one of the biggest enemies of mine, biggest boogeyman's of mine and I'm not even a big call-out person Like I don't call people out tremendously. I've had folks on the show who do like Dr Spencer Nadolsky and who's you're going to hear about very soon after this episode comes out. And if you look at the content online, you know that the stuff that gets attention, the viral stuff, is usually the really out there information. A recent analysis of fitness-related TikTok content, for example, found that over 80% of viral fitness posts contained at least one significant piece of misinformation. And so this creates what I call analysis paralysis by social media. Right, where you're so overwhelmed with not just information, conflicting and misleading information, and then you struggle to take any action at all. Right, you just binge content, hoping to find something, then something else, then something else. It's all different. Can't tell you how many rapid nutrition assessments I get on, and that is the root cause of their issue. They're like you know what I wanted to set up a call with you because I've listened to your podcast and it seems like you're trying to be objective and reasonable about this stuff and evidence-based, and I'm so confused because there's so much misinformation. What do I do with this, right? So let me ask you the question what do we do about all of this? Now, we've talked about the negatives of social media and I'm not going to tell you to delete all your apps. Right? That's not realistic, that's not necessary. I'm not going to tell you to stop using your phone. Let's talk about evidence-based strategies to make technology work for you. It is a tool. I just simply want it to work for you rather than against you, like with anything else. Let's stop saying not to do certain things. You know. Don't track your food because you can get obsessive. No, how do we use food tracking as a tool that works for us? So how do we use social media that way? First, we need to understand that our phones can be super helpful for progress when you use them intentionally.

Philip Pape: 18:44

I think a smartphone is an amazing invention. I remember back in 2007,. I think I watched it live. I watched the keynote address that Steve Jobs gave when he introduced the iPhone, and I encourage you to go on YouTube and find that, because the audience was just shocked with this massive leap forward in technology that the iPhone presented, because it was the first time we ever combined browsing the web with a phone, with apps and with the capacitive touchscreen. The whole thing. Now it seems like ho-hum, old news, but it was an amazing invention and we know what it's led to. It's led to a completely different phase of technology and history that we're in for, better and worse, like always with technology. So why don't we use them as tools? And so think about tracking your workouts, for example.

Philip Pape: 19:29

Now, if you love to use notebooks, please use a notebook. I know some of you listening and some of my friends are like, oh, here he goes again with the phone. But hey, we all have phones. There are many good apps. By the time this episode comes out, I think, yeah, actually, the very last episode was with the founder of Boost Camp.

Philip Pape: 19:45

Boost Camp is the app that I use and it's a great app because then you could see your PRs, you can see your history, you can see your history, you can automatically program based on a percentage of your max, you can find workout programs, you can track for weeks, months, years. You can look at your volume over time lots of cool things. You can look at your sets per week. I love it for that, because then you can take that data and make informed decisions going forward. Hey, is this level of volume appropriate for me? Is this many days per week giving me the recovery I need? And so on. You could use it definitely for food tracking. So I love macro factor for that purpose calculating your calorie and macro targets, monitoring your biofeedback, your metrics, your photos, like doing those kinds of things.

Philip Pape: 20:26

Also even going on YouTube or, yes, even short form social media, and deliberately looking for educational content that can teach you something, knowing that you're seeking out people that you trust and then kind of building that self-library ecosystem of those people and trying to filter out the rest. And these are active, these are purposeful, these are mindful uses of technology that move you ahead toward your goals rather than mindless consumption that pulls you away from them. And I know we all have different personalities. Everybody has different levels of tracking and data use.

Philip Pape: 21:01

I'm definitely up there in the type A engineering, I love to use data and spreadsheets. A friend of mine, actually, you know we homeschool our kids and he asked what do we? You know how long it takes every day to teach them? And I said well, it takes about probably four to five hours. Now that they're older, it's a few hours less than being in school all day, because we could be a little more efficient with it. And then I sent them my spreadsheet with a histogram of the hours per subject and the hours per day and this whole thing. So that's me, but that's not everyone. Now, if you work with me as a client, I will definitely help you use a lot of these tools and data efficiently, but I tend to do the number crunching myself on the back end.

Jenny: 21:38

Hi, my name is Jenny and I just wanted to say a big thank you to Philip Pape of Wits and Weights for offering his free 50-minute nutritional assessment. During that time he gave me really good tools on how I can further my health and fitness goals. He asked really great questions and stayed true to his offer of no sales pitch. I have since applied these things and gotten really close to my health goals and my weight goals, and now I'm able to flip over and work on my strength and my muscle conditioning using a lot of the things he offers in his podcasts, and I just am very grateful for his positive inspiration and encouragement, for all of our help. Thank you, philip.

Philip Pape: 22:24

Everybody's different. I get it. So find something that works for you. You don't even have to use your phone, right? Nobody's saying you have to.

Philip Pape: 22:31

The next thing that comes to mind is setting for yourself an intentional, specific plan for when and how you're going to use social media. Now you know how, if you have children and they have their phones, there are apps that let you limit screen time, for example. Well, why don't you do that for yourself, instead of random scrolling whenever? Set either dedicated times, just like you might have dedicated meal times to control your calories, for example. Set dedicated times for checking certain apps, ideally not first thing in the morning or right before bed as well. So think about that. And again, if you want to use the technology built in the phone to limit you from doing that, go for it or just do it manually. So it's kind of a batching strategy, is what I'm thinking.

Philip Pape: 23:14

The second thing that comes to mind is your environment design, just like with food, where we want to put snacks high calorie snacks away where we don't see them if they're a craving for us, we want to make it harder to access the apps that suck us in. Right, and you can move them off your home screen. You can hide them in a little group, like on iPhone. You can just shove them in a group so they're not constantly sitting there as an app. Turning off notifications that is huge, like turn off the badge icon, turn off notifications. That way you have to manually go into those things and you'll notice when you do that they're not that important after all, are they. And then you can use the built-in limits, like I mentioned before. One other thing you can do is look at the screen time, and it's kind of funny because for those who use Macrofactor as a food logging app, I will sometimes tell someone who doesn't quote-unquote like to log food because they think it's inconvenient. I'll say, hey, let me show you the screen time that most people average when they use Macrofactor, and it's like four minutes a day. You know what I mean? It's hardly anything. So check out the phone time, the screen time by app, and look at the ones that you spend the most time on. That would be probably the low-hanging fruit to start limiting yourself.

Philip Pape: 24:24

Then there's something called pattern interrupts and what this is is setting up triggers that make you pause before mindless scrolling. Now, I don't have a great example for this. I'm thinking, for example, when you open a social media app, just consciously asking yourself the question what am I looking for here? Right, for example, I'm looking for information about how to do a bench press better, or how do I get more protein, and that's why I'm going to social, as opposed to I'm just going to open my social media app and start scrolling without a plan. So it's really just that pattern interrupt of interrupting your thought and hopefully me saying it right now and putting it in your brain like an earworm you don't know what an earworm is. Look it up, it's a cool term. Like an earworm will make you think next time you open Instagram. Why am I doing this? Why am I doing this? I might go in there to check my messages as a batch. I might go in there because I'm looking for a specific person or information, but if I'm simply opening it up because hey, it's there on my home screen and now I just get sucked in, that's a problem.

Philip Pape: 25:30

So have a pattern interrupt, give yourself a reason and then, if you don't have a good one, that will interrupt your thought pattern. So you second guess the need to scroll at all and then curating your content. I mentioned this a little bit before, but be ruthless. Be like a scalpel about who you follow. If someone's content makes you feel worse about yourself or your progress, just unfollow them and stop following them right away, no matter how popular they are. And there's other options in these apps to, like you know, see less of this right, or stop showing this, or hide this for a while. Try those things, because it will mold the algorithm in your benefit.

Philip Pape: 26:07

Now there is a huge positive reframing on all of this, because a lot of this was negative. Some of it was, I know, helpful strategies, but a lot of it was negative. What if the very technology that's designed to hook us can become our most powerful ally in improving what we're trying to do here, which is our health and fitness, our strength, our body composition, fat loss, right? And so, instead of scrolling mindlessly through transformation posts, going through your search tab, imagine using those same moments to track your progress in the gym, the kitchen, looking up recipes, learning how to improve your form, learning about how to program your workouts and so on. Use it as a tool for education and tracking. I want you to think of those two things right now. I want you to think of education and tracking Is the purpose. I'm opening social media right now for education or tracking.

Philip Pape: 26:53

Now, I know there's a social aspect to social media, so I'm not gonna take that away from you. I'm not suggesting that at all. Definitely connecting with people, commenting on posts and stuff go for it. But have that pattern interrupted, asking yourself is this really worth it? Or do I at least want to batch up my social part of social media into like one hour of the day and then during that hour I'm going to walk around as I do it. So I'm going to get a two for one and I'm going to limit my time. Right, take control of it rather than just binge away at random content. And the funny thing is, when I mentioned reward response earlier, the same dopamine you hit you get from like, like or a share. You can get that from actually making progress, from seeing your numbers improve in the gym. Right, the satisfaction of watching a short video, whatever fleeting it is. Channel that into maybe recording your own form, lift and analyzing it. Now, I know that takes more work, so that might not be an equivalent.

Philip Pape: 27:47

But the point is we don't want to fight technology, we don't want to try to be a Luddite. I mean, look, you're using YouTube or a podcast app right now to listen to me, and I hope you find this educational. This is a purposeful use of this. What are you going to do about it? How are you going to redirect this powerful thing to serve your goals? All right, so your phone isn't inherently your enemy, right? It's just a tool. Like any tool. Its impact depends entirely on how you use it. So how are you going to use it right Now? I want to give you one way to do that, a productive way to use your smartphone.

Philip Pape: 28:17

I mentioned this earlier, but just in time for this episode, I added some brand new research-backed calculators to our website, witsandweightscom. Yes, they're mobile friendly and you're going to find a metabolism calculator based on the latest formulas for BMR and TEE that will give you an estimate of your energy expenditure and then the best calorie intake for different fat loss and muscle building goals. Now, this is just a starting estimate, but I think it's pretty cool. It's better than other calculators because of the formulas it uses. I also added a body fat calculator and it lets you put in a target body fat and tells you what it takes to get there, and I think a lot of those calculators don't have that Also a new body roundness index calculator, and this is a better indicator of health and body fat than BMI.

Philip Pape: 29:02

I first heard about it from Dr Jordan Feigenbaum and I decided to look it up. The research is really solid and I created a calculator for it for you. It accounts for your lean mass. So many of us who lift BMI is useless. The vast majority of people who lift that I know, who are in fantastic shape, are either overweight or obese according to BMI, which is ridiculous. It's because they have a lot of dense lean mass on their body. So the body roundness index actually compensates for lean mass and can give you, based on the shape of your body, how much body fat you have and your health factors.

Philip Pape: 29:33

So check those out now using your phone. Click the link in my show notes, or go to witsandweightscom and click calculators in the top menu and check those out. All right, that is it for today. Until next time, keep using your wits lifting those weights and remember your most powerful fitness tool isn't your social media feed, it's your ability to choose where you direct your attention. This is Philip Pape and you've been listening to the Wits and Weights Podcast. I'll talk to you next time.

The New Smart Lifting App Every Science-Based Lifter NEEDS (Michael Liu) | Ep 247

Download Boostcamp for free and get instant access to 70+ workout plans from evidence-based coaches, or go to boostcamp.com/#witsandweights (use code witsandweights)

Do you struggle with program hopping and sticking to a plan? Could a personalized app transform your training routine? What if tracking your training metrics was the key to unlocking your potential?

Philip (@witsandweights) connects with Michael Liu, the co-founder of Boostcamp, a cutting-edge app designed to make evidence-based training accessible and practical for lifters of all levels. Michael shares how the app simplifies complex programming, empowers lifters with real-time data, and offers a customizable approach to training. They explore how technology can enhance gains without replacing the human element. Discover how Boostcamp stands out, why the right program is crucial, and how data-driven insights can optimize your results. Whether a novice or an advanced lifter, you'll learn actionable strategies to elevate your training journey.

Michael Liu co-founded Boostcamp, a revolutionary fitness app designed to bridge the gap between evidence-based training and user-friendly technology. A passionate strength athlete and entrepreneur, Michael has a unique background combining finance and fitness. His dedication to simplifying complex training principles has made Boostcamp a go-to resource for lifters worldwide. Boostcamp has partnered with top coaches like Eric Helms, Greg Nuckols, and Alex Bromley to offer high-quality, customizable programs accessible to lifters of all levels.

Today, you’ll learn all about:

2:09 The origins of Boostcamp and its mission
9:09 Finding the perfect program for you
13:25 Community-created programs and feedback
19:45 Tracking progress and data analytics
25:02 Muscle engagement and volume tracker
27:17 Simplifying advanced programs, app gamification vs. human coaching
32:33 Program structure and training style flexibility
39:10 Tools and features that keep lifters on track
47:01 Outro

Episode resources:

• Boostcamp subreddit

• Instagram: @trainwithboostcamp

How Boostcamp is Revolutionizing Evidence-Based Training Programs

The Problem with Traditional Workout Apps and Programs

For years, lifters have struggled with clunky spreadsheets, confusing program designs, and workout apps that miss the mark on what really matters for making progress. Whether you're program hopping or trying to figure out your next training block, the disconnect between proven training principles and practical implementation has been a major roadblock. As someone who's personally tested dozens of apps and programs, I can tell you that most of them fall short in making evidence-based training accessible and practical.

Free Access to Elite Coaching

Boostcamp has partnered with respected names in the evidence-based fitness space including Eric Helms, Alex Bromley, Greg Nuckols, and Alberto Nunez. These aren't just random programs – they're structured training blocks designed by coaches who understand the science of strength and hypertrophy. What's even more impressive is that these programs are available for free, democratizing access to high-quality training expertise.

Smart Program Design Features

• One-rep max calculators and automatic weight progression

• Customizable exercise substitutions that carry forward

• Volume tracking by muscle group (developed with Eric Helms and Bryce Lewis)

• Weekly analytics on training load and progress

• Rest timers and warm-up sets calculator

The app takes complex programming concepts and makes them approachable without dumbing them down. For example, when you start a program like 5/3/1 or Bromley's Bull Mastiff, you just input your maxes and the app handles all the calculations and progressions automatically.

Program Retention and Results

According to Boostcamp's analysis of user data:

• 3-day programs show the highest adherence rates

• Programs with phase changes (volume, intensity) keep users engaged longer

• Structured progression is key for sustainable results

This matches what I've seen with my own clients – programs need to balance effectiveness with sustainability.

Community Program Innovation

With over 3,000 user-created programs, some unexpected trends have emerged:

• Supplementary programs (stretching, grip training) see high adoption

• Niche programs targeting specific demographics perform well

• Community engagement drives program evolution

Balancing Complexity with Usability

The app serves both complete beginners and advanced lifters, requiring careful feature implementation to avoid overwhelming new users while providing the depth experienced lifters need. This is something I particularly appreciate as both a coach and lifter – you can go as deep or as simple as you want with the features.

Continuous Development

Through active community engagement and coach collaboration, Boostcamp continues adding features like:

• Enhanced program customization

• Detailed exercise instruction videos

• Advanced analytics for tracking progress

• Integration with evidence-based training principles

Making Real Progress with Smart Programming

The key to results isn't just having access to good programs – it's having the right tools to implement them effectively and track progress. Boostcamp bridges this gap by making proven training methodologies accessible while providing the analytics needed to optimize your training. Whether you're just starting out or you're an experienced lifter looking to level up your training, having the right combination of programming and tracking tools can make all the difference in your results

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Transcript

Philip Pape: 0:01

If you're looking for the perfect training program, or you've been following random workouts, or even have no plan at all when you go to the gym, this episode is for you. What if I told you that the difference between mediocre and exceptional results often comes down to following a well-structured program consistently and tracking the right metrics to make sure you're actually making progress? Today, I'm sitting down with the founder of Boostcamp, Boostcamp Liu, who's also a strength athlete and is revolutionizing how lifters translate complex evidence-based training principles into real-world results in the gym. Whether you're frustrated with confusing or ineffective programs, you're tired of program hopping, or you're ready to take your training to the next level, based on your personal performance and data, this episode will show you how proper programming and tracking can help your gains take off. Welcome to Wits and Weights, the podcast that blends evidence and engineering to help you build smart, efficient systems to achieve your dream physique.

Philip Pape: 1:04

I'm your host, philip Pape, and today I've invited Michael Liu on the show to show you how to combine the use of technology with evidence-based training.

Philip Pape: 1:13

Now, michael is a serious lifter, like I try to be, who's pulled 600 pounds off the floor and understands the importance of proper programming. His app, boostcamp, has rapidly gained traction. By giving you access to effective training programs for coaches who we all know and love in the evidence-based space, like Eric Helms, alex Bromley, greg Knuckles and Alberto Nunez and combining that with a clean design and workout analytics and you know how much I love data Today you'll learn how to find a program that works, implement proven training principles more effectively, track the metrics that actually matter for progress and optimize your training using that data Plus. As someone who personally uses Boostcamp for my own training and my clients, I'm really excited to ask Michael about how the technology works and what the future holds so you can identify, track and customize your program to build more strength and size than ever before. Michael, thanks for doing this and coming on the show. My man.

Michael Liu: 2:08

Thank you. It's an honor to be on your podcast, Philip.

Philip Pape: 2:11

Yeah, and you and I connected a while back I think you'd reached out about being an affiliate and I said what is this new lifting app that claims to be the best app for lifters? And I tried it out and I use it now, which is awesome, right, I use it now and my clients use it a whole bunch of folks. I've definitely referred to the app. So today we're going to try not to make it an yeah, we're not going to make it an infomercial, but just so people know who are listening. You know, I use it myself and I think it's a great technology. So I want to ask you, if you went back in time and gave yourself Boostcamp when you first started lifting, what would that have done for your approach to training and your results?

Michael Liu: 2:50

Wow, that's an interesting question. I mean, I would definitely be 10 times stronger than I am now Probably be a world champion powerlifter by now Competing in the IFBB pros, probably as well.

Philip Pape: 3:03

You would be man right there next to Eric right.

Michael Liu: 3:07

Jokes aside, I would say probably would have made more consistent progress. When I first started lifting was back in the early late 2000s and that's when starting strength was very popular. But I would say the science-based fitness hasn't really caught on yet. So besides starting strength, people were still on the bodybuildingcom MISC forums putting out random splits and routines and mostly I was trying a bunch of different things and really just program hopping and wasting my time. So I think if I had more structure in place, better access to incredible coaches, that is, on the bootcamp and also just on the internet now, I think it would have definitely made a lot more progress.

Philip Pape: 3:56

Yeah, that makes sense. A lot of us have been through a similar journey. Even though I started lifting later, it still took me 10 years to find starting strength or the muscle strength pyramids or any of these things. And one of the most common questions I get from clients is like what people in general, what apps should I use to track my workouts? And the fact that you can take a program in an app, find it, follow it and all for free. I think that's powerful because that kind of connects to things that are often separated right, like I need to go find a program, so I get lost on the internet and I download some old Google sheet program from somebody to figure it out. I have no idea what I'm doing. Versus hey, jump right into Alex Bromley's bull Mastiff, like I just did a week ago, and you could customize it as needed, but you could just start. So is that why you started BoostCamp, because you saw that need in the industry, or what's the story behind it?

Michael Liu: 4:49

Yeah, that's a great question. That's exactly right. So

Michael Liu: 5:02

my partner, patricia, she's the engineer and she's really the brain behind Boostcamp, but my background is actually in finance, so I'm quite familiar with using spreadsheets for work before we started building Boostcamp. But the one thing that I noticed was, you know, as the fitness enthusiast amongst my friend circle, anytime someone will ask me for a workout program, I'll be like, oh hey, check out this spreadsheet and sounds 531 spreadsheet, where you're going to make great progress, and the most common response I get is I'm not going to follow a spreadsheet to go to the gym on my mobile phone. So that's really where, to your point, the genesis of Boostcamp came from is to make workout programs more accessible so that people can actually follow them and make progress without needing to, you know, bundle with an Excel sheet on their laptop or bring, like you know, or trying to open Google Sheets on their phone.

Philip Pape: 6:07

Yeah, and it makes sense and I think there are apps out there that get part of the way there and I'm probably going to drop some of your competitors as we go through this. But I used Train Heroic for a long time through a coach that I had, but you have to be a coach kind of paying into that and then the client can access it or you have to pay for a program if you're a client. So it looks like you came in and disrupted that by offering the programs high quality, vetted from really good coaches for free. And then you know there's premium features you could upgrade to on the app that are like the added value once you get into that ecosystem. Is that a fair assessment?

Michael Liu: 6:42

yeah, I mean. So before we launch better premium features, we used to get people who complain and say that oh, like, the premium version of bootcamp kind of sucks. And the reason is because we give away the best features of the app, which is the ability to follow tons of amazing programs for free. So the way I kind of describe it is like you're going to a restaurant and you get the steak for free but you have to pay for the ketchup. You know what I mean? Okay, you have to pay for the potatoes.

Michael Liu: 7:12

I mean, at least that's what Boostcamp was like before, where we give away so many features for free and we still do. And frankly, I think that's important because you know our mission is to make science-based fitness more accessible, to make training more accessible for anybody, not just people who can afford it. So you know to your point, we have tons of workout programs that are completely free to use on the app. People can create their own programs for free on the app as well, or they can just track workouts like a simple workout tracker. So we give away all these features for free so that you know we actually help people get stronger and reach their fitness goals and you know if they find the app useful. Many people just want to support us, regardless of whether they actually need the free features or not, so that's really how we think about the business is not just from a financial perspective.

Philip Pape: 8:15

It really started as a pet project for us to, you know, make some moves in the space and I'm happy to tell people about it because, for example, you mentioned custom programs. A lot of people get frustrated with how difficult it is to just make your own next session or workout. And not only can you do that, you can do it on desktop, which is not that people are like, oh cool, you can do it on desktop, which is like I could sit down and create a 16 week very complicated program if you want, you know, in like 30 minutes on a desktop. But I want to talk about those programs a bit, because the listeners are like fine, you have a bunch of programs. What do they look like?

Philip Pape: 8:50

Well, you've partnered with a bunch of some of the most respected names in the industry. I already mentioned a few in the intro and I know you've had some of them on your podcast as well, like what have you learned from them? Because you and I were talking about how you bring people on to learn from them on your podcast. What have you learned that makes a program actually effective versus, you know, it just looks good on paper, like a million others that are out there.

Michael Liu: 9:08

Yeah, I get questions all the time from users on Reddit and over email on what is the best workout program, and I think you know the right question is what is the perfect workout program for you? Because I'm sure you know as a coach yourself, everybody is different. People have different life constraints, people have different goals, some people are injured, so the perfect program really depends on the specific person. So the one thing that we try to do on Boostcamp is to have lots of different programs, cater to different goals, whether your main goal is general strength training, bodybuilding, competitive, powerlifting, at home fitness. So different goals.

Michael Liu: 9:58

We have filters for how many days you want to train. So we have programs for 3 days a week, 4 days a week, even 7 days a week, programs for three days a week, four days a week, even seven days a week. Programs for different equipment access. So some people only have you know, only have a pull-up bar. Some people have access to a home gym with only barbells and a few dumbbells and some people have entire access of, you know, like a commercial gym.

Michael Liu: 10:24

So by having all these different goals, different filters and also different levels depending on if you're a beginner, novice, intermediate or advanced you can really find the right program for yourself, and I think that is the most important factor between what is considered like a good program for you and versus not Now.

Michael Liu: 10:43

With that being said, there's definitely a contrast between good programs and bad programs. Like we talked about at the beginning of the podcast, back in the early 2010s, there were a lot of really bad programs on the internet Programs where you know you're doing 20 different exercises per day or you're doing deadlifts after doing a bunch of isolation exercises. Programs that generally would kill you from having way too much workload but actually doesn't help you make progress. That's why I think we only try to partner with science-based coaches that not only are very knowledgeable from a science perspective, but also have a lot of in-field experience training clients as well to design programs that are actually good. So the foundation of the programs are good and then it's up to the user themselves to figure out like what is the right program for them.

Philip Pape: 11:42

Right and definitely rely on those filters pretty heavily. And then once you go into the program you could see the description of it and kind of the why behind that. For someone who's been program hopping and ready to just pick a program, is there any advice you give them when they do that filter for the first time? Because I could imagine you'd still be overwhelmed. Right, you still pick all these filters and then you have like eight programs to choose from. What would you recommend?

Michael Liu: 12:07

Yeah, I mean that's a tough problem and, frankly, it's something that I don't think we've fully solved, because, like you said right, we have so many programs on the app now by coaches and there's also thousands of programs uploaded by users as well. Or even if you use all the filters, you might still get eight programs. So I guess, like, ultimately, how you pick that, honestly, I don't have a great answer. I mean, I'm curious on you know, from your perspective as a coach, like what would you recommend?

Philip Pape: 12:36

Yeah, I mean, I think one answer is you won't know until you try, Like that's. One answer is unless you really know yourself like a late, intermediate or advanced lifter, many programs can work and I would just look at the workouts. Like you can hop in and you can see OK, this is 18 week program. Kind of jump ahead and see what the lifts, the movements are. Look at the volume we were joking about bullmastiff, how it has like a massive ramp up in volume, and if that's not something you're going to stick with right now, maybe another program is right for you and not something you're going to stick with right now. Maybe another program's right for you and there's also a description in there.

Philip Pape: 13:06

I know Brian Borstein. He was on the show and he has a hybrid program in there. So there's special interests people might have improving conditioning. So yeah, I would say, just experiment and we'll get to later. I wanted to ask you some about AI and technology in the future. Maybe there's other ways to get there. But here's a fun question what? What's the most bizarre program? Or like maybe it's a community program, because you don't want to throw any of your coaches under the bus that you've seen like created in the app. I don't know if that's something you track and that worked well, you know, like a bizarre program. Have you ever seen something like that?

Michael Liu: 13:39

Oh my God. So we launched the community program feature in January of this year and now there's been I think there's over 3,000 programs now that have been published by users. What's crazy is you can actually find thousands of users because you can see the number of athletes on each program. Even for the community programs, you can find programs with thousands of users on them and there's definitely some like super niche programs that have done really well. That's like super random.

Michael Liu: 14:10

We frankly had to take down some programs that are like inappropriate.

Michael Liu: 14:15

Okay, you know, if they have different, you know like 18 plus type of graphic, obviously we have to take stuff like that down.

Michael Liu: 14:27

But the one program that's done really well that sort of in a field that we hadn't really thought about is a stretching program, which I think might be the most popular community program right now and it's like a 10-minute stretching routine which I think is really smart because, you know, at some point the programs do become saturated, right, because there's so many programs out there now on BoostGap and a stretching program really benefits any single strength training program you do and it's definitely very important for just general health and preventing injuries. So I think that program, you know, it's a really smart program. I'm just taking a look now at some other ones. There's like a basic grip routine for grip training that you know has done really well. There's one called Shy Girls Get Fit with 800 athletes on it. I mean, I recommend you check out the community program section of the website because you'll find a ton of interesting programs uploaded by users with just like the most random names and graphics but somehow they really attract like the exact audience for that program.

Philip Pape: 15:37

I love that right, like the stretching. I could see why now you're going to have a whole bunch of people listening to this podcast go in and stretching programs because they don't grab attention. But I could see that these kind of niche, supportive type workouts, like grip training, could be for improving your deadlift or for strongman or you know the jungle gym style like I forget the name, but you know the ninja style training and stuff like that. I know data is a big part of this app on the back end. Are you able to collect some sort of information or data not private data, obviously, but just patterns from the community workouts right now, like are you you know, without revealing any trade secrets or anything? Are you able to analyze that in any way, because it's a big source of potential information on how people think about programming?

Michael Liu: 16:21

Yeah, to be honest, we haven't been able to focus too much on the analytic side of the programming yet at a very in-depth, detailed level, I would say the type of analysis that we ran have shown, for example, programs that are three days a week tend to have the highest retention for people to stay connected to programs.

Michael Liu: 16:43

We actually ran a pretty interesting analysis over a year ago on the most popular programs. We did run a pretty interesting analysis a while back just comparing the starting WinRAM access for users on different programs and an aggregate level versus other programs. I can share you a link where we share the findings with the community afterwards, but that was like a one-time exercise. That I thought was pretty cool because you know how, like when you go to Reddit and you search program reviews, you'll find a lot of anecdotal evidence for programs and oftentimes the most brutal programs that people actually stick to end up having the best results. But it doesn't necessarily mean it's the best program for the general population. So by able to see the starting one-run maxes and the drop-offs across different weeks, you can really see some interesting analysis on, okay, what programs create the best results but also have the highest retention, so that people can actually follow through with them.

Philip Pape: 17:53

Yeah, yeah. That's a really great point Because we talk about sustainability and all this stuff, nutrition as well, and I could see two curves intersecting, one being like how effective it is for driving up your 1RM and one being how effective it is that you're going to stick with it. Where's the sweet spot? Where's the sweet spot for, like, the average person? And so maybe you have a filter like how gritty are you with sticking to really hard programs, you know, on a scale of one to five, and then, like, based on your you know level of pain that you're willing to suffer, you know not, not really to make it sound that way it would give you the right program, way, it would give you the right program. That's a really great point because we were joking again about the program I'm running. Now, when you look at the reviews, you'll see a lot of folks are like I got three weeks in and then they post their review Like you got to give it more time, and then we'll see.

Michael Liu: 18:38

Yeah, we should consider changing that. I mean we prompt users to give a review about three to four weeks in, and then you know they can choose not to leave a review about three to four weeks in and then you know they can choose not to leave a review. But yeah, I mean the reviews really become more helpful, like later on, right, if for people to actually stick onto the program. But then at the same time, if a program is too hard and most people are dropping off on week three, that probably means that the program you know might not be the best program for a lot of people. So it's hard to say, yeah, the people, so it's hard to say yeah.

Philip Pape: 19:07

The weird ones are the ones where they're like five stars. I'm three weeks in. This looks like it'd be great for growing my legs and it's like a wishful statement, as if like but they're not going to continue.

Michael Liu: 19:17

Yeah.

Philip Pape: 19:18

But for you watching, you know, looking at the app it could be great. No, it's pretty cool. I mean, I love analytics. I know we can always go overboard, like overanalyzing data, but I did want to understand how the basic analytics available, such as sets per week or any other metrics that you think are helpful. Let me put it this way what are the top one or two types of analytics people maybe should look at? That informs their training and maybe any modifications they should make.

Michael Liu: 19:44

I mean I think people should. I mean, your question is around how you should track your progress really, and I think that actually goes beyond the app. At the first level, I would say you know if your goal is weight loss or bulking, you should look at the scale, so you know that's probably the most important factor you know you should look at and then followed by probably the mirror as well, although that can vary depending on lighting, how you feel and all that kind of stuff as well. But beyond those two very obvious and important factors in the app itself, I would say at the workout level, it's really helpful to just look at the weights and reps that you completed. You know from your previous workouts, right? That's the most obvious thing that I think any basic app should be able to offer. So being just even tracking even for me, someone who's been lifting for over a decade, I find just being able to track how many reps I did, you know across my three sets, lat pulldown or any single exercise, just really helps me remember my progress. So if I know last week I did 12 reps, then maybe for this week I'll try to do 13 reps, right, and if I'm at the top of my range, maybe I'll try to increase the weight. So just being able to see that progress over time from the number of sets you're doing and the weight that you're doing and the reps, is just super critical, I think.

Michael Liu: 21:18

And then, if you have the basics down like that, then I would say some other analytics that we now provide in the app. That's very interesting. You can see your total workout volume over time. So tonnage, your tonnage, yep, so you can see how that changes throughout the year, you know, is it increasing, is it decreasing? Then you can analyze oh okay, like, how's my body weight also training during this period? How's my results trending right? Because more volume doesn't necessarily mean I mean you know this better than I do more volume is always better and less volume is always better. There's a lot of variables, you know. In that it's very something that you really need to think through. And then some other analytics that we offering. The app that I find to be quite bespoke to bootcamp is the muscle engagement tracker. So I'm sure you, I'm sure you've seen this as at the end of every workout and if you go to the analytics tab you'll see this.

Philip Pape: 22:14

You know, big muscle guy yeah, yeah, the sets, the sets that you targeted each muscle right, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Michael Liu: 22:21

So that feature was so.

Michael Liu: 22:23

Eric helms and bryce lewis helped us develop this feature and it's super cool because it shows you your actual volume, done by muscle group, and the volume is actually calculated based on effective volume.

Michael Liu: 22:38

So, for example, when you do a set of bench press, you're using your chest, your front delts and your triceps, but you're not using the muscle 100%, you know, for the entire exercise, right? So your effective volume might be 100% chest I can't remember the exact breakdown, but you know we have it by hundreds of exercises. That's calculated, that's inputted, with the help of Bryce and Eric for that. But it could be like 100% chest, could be 60% front delts and 80% your triceps. We do that for like every single exercise that you do. So by having it broken down in detail and being able to see that over weeks, you can actually calculate and see the volume that you're performing for each muscle group over time, which I think is a very good indicator of whether you're under training a muscle over training a muscle. Even for me, when I see it, I'm like, oh, okay, like I'm not doing. Oh, I'm like I'm not doing a lot of work on my rear delts or I'm not doing a lot of work on my calves.

Philip Pape: 23:43

I was going to say calves. That's the one that often comes up. It's like at the bottom right.

Michael Liu: 23:48

Exactly, yeah, man, so that's a really cool feature, I think, in terms of analytics at a deeper level for people that are interested.

Philip Pape: 23:56

Actually I think I agree. That's one of the ones I look at a lot only because it prompts you at the end of the workout and then at the end of the week there's like a weekly report and on a program where volume is changing as part of the progression, it helps to see that, okay, my quad sets are actually going up. You know they go up a third and then a third and then they drop back. And we know from the evidence right that, and this constantly is getting refined. But Jeff Alberts was on the show and kind of confirmed it again.

Philip Pape: 24:22

You know, godfather of natural bodybuilding, that 10 to 20 sets is generally recommended as pretty solid for a good training program. But you could get an effective workout as low as five to 10, depending on how hard you're training and what you respond to. And then the idea of variation throughout the year is helpful too, because you mentioned looking at your cumulative volume over the year. I think that's helpful as well if you need to vary it up, if you're like I've gone through a six-month high volume phase, now I'm going to go through a six-month low volume phase. Like you said, it's not necessarily high or low, that's better. It might be that you need high and then you need low to get the response. So I'm just kind of playing off that as how helpful that kind of data can be for folks.

Michael Liu: 25:02

Yeah, I actually had a pretty interesting chat with Eric about this because I was about to start a cut after a pretty serious powerlifting and bulking phase, and I was asking him is it possible to gain muscle cut? Because the general consensus, I guess, is you can't, but the answer is actually a lot more nuanced. So it's possible if you're a beginner at certain muscle groups. So, for example, right, I was doing powerlifting for like two years like pretty seriously, like only squat, bench and deadlift, so I never really seriously worked my shoulders and my rear delts. I feel like that's something that I'm definitely still a beginner at. So if I focus my program on providing more training volume towards my delts, as opposed to muscles that I'm already pretty advanced at, like my back and my chest, perhaps I can actually make muscular progress during my cut and by using the muscle volume tracker, I'm able to look at how my volume is distributed during my cut to focus more on the developed muscle groups where I can actually make progress.

Philip Pape: 26:10

Oh, that's awesome. That's actually perfect timing. I was talking to a lifter friend of mine last week about can you get newbie gains when you're not a newbie, and we were talking about that idea of like there's aspects of your development and the way you train that are new or you've detrained. Like if you've been doing powerlifting for a long time, you might be detrained with a lot of other muscles because you haven't hit them through hypertrophy workouts. So for those listening like this is awesome, right, it's be smart about when you go on a cut and what kind of program you follow. That might be the perfect time to go after an underdeveloped muscle group because, assuming you don't go more than like 500 calorie deficit because that's, I think, decent cutoff in the literature of where it becomes really hard to build new muscle Keep it moderate and go after targeted muscle groups that are weak spots.

Philip Pape: 26:54

That's a great tip, man, that's good. So back to you were talking about like 5-3-1 and you know there's other programs that if you're kind of a newer lifter, they're a little bit complicated. You don't quite understand with the undulation and the block periodization and all that. How does the app, for example, make them more approachable without like oversimplifying, like still make it the actual program. How would you say they do that?

Michael Liu: 27:16

yeah, well, the beauty is the app first, as you mentioned earlier, has an overview section where we explain in detail the structure of the program, the philosophy behind the program, and you can also scroll over. If you go to the website or if you go to the program structure section of the program, you can see how the program looks week by week, with the different exercises, the sets, the percentages for each week. So you can still get the high-level overview. But where it really keeps things simple for the user is you click Start Program, onboard Program and then you just enter your OneRAM access and it calculates, it populates all your future weeks for you so that you don't have to do any jiggering. And you don't have to do any jiggering and you don't have to figure out.

Michael Liu: 28:11

You know how to use a spreadsheet, you know to make this program run for you automatically. So that's where we try to keep things understandable and you know, especially for the beginning of the program, but also make it super simple for somebody who's not familiar with, you know, the 5-3-1 structure to just click start, figure out their starting weights, in which, during the All-Borning 2, we have like a 1-RAM-Max calculator where they can enter the exercise and then it will calculate the 1-RAM-Max for them so that, even if they have never done 1-RAM-Max before, they can figure it out and then just start the workout, because you know you don't want to be fudging around.

Michael Liu: 28:50

You want to make it harder by you know, trying to be a computer scientist, work a program that's for somebody like me.

Philip Pape: 28:55

I get it. I'm like this is too easy. I I used to have to spend 10 minutes at least walking around my house like fudging with my next workout. Now it's just like there. Oh no, I had to find something else to do with my time. No, that's good. I noticed the program also has all this stuff. People like RPE and you know percent, 1rm and all the different types of ways like MRAPs and such. So you know we don't have to get in all the features like. Somebody can go Google, like BoostCamp, and see all that Rest timers, warm up calculators, all that fun stuff's in there. What I was curious about, like I mentioned this earlier, what is the human element that is the hardest to replicate? Do you think that maybe is in the program or isn't yet in the program that you would love to see in there?

Michael Liu: 29:36

Yeah, that's a great question. While it's really difficult to replicate the personal connection that you get from a coach, I've had some really great coaching in the past where you know it's not just the programming that a coach provides for you right, it's the mental support that you get from having somebody to cheer you on, to motivate you when you have a bad workout, when you miss a PR attempt. Have a bad workout when you miss a PR attempt. That element is definitely something that we don't yet have in Boostcamp. That you know in an app format that you get, you know, from a coach. You know the things that we try to do to replicate a little bit of that. It's like, okay, we have streaks, you know we're going to have badges in the future as well, the launch community features.

Michael Liu: 30:27

You know we have all these data, you know, to try to keep people motivated, but you're definitely missing that human element of motivation from just having a coach to stay with you during the tougher times. So that part I would say is pretty. You know it's pretty hard to replicate, but it's also pros and cons, right. So if a coach you know, if your choice is between getting a trainer at a gym, pop gym who you know. I mean, I used to go to Equinox. It's like this fancy gym and you know the first thing that be. I always see trainers get beginners to do the most complicated exercises like a one-hand snatch or whatever, right, but it's almost like they're trying to confuse them, to make them use a trainer yeah, like you need me, you need me.

Philip Pape: 31:19

This is so complicated. You need me, right? Is that what you're saying me?

Michael Liu: 31:22

yeah, because I don't want to lose a client right and you know, oftentimes, you know, I find that the clients don't make any progress over a very long period of time, whereas if they actually follow a proven program from Boostcamp or from the internet, from anywhere, they would actually make a lot better results. So there's definitely pros and cons to having a coach. I mean in the app. We definitely want to figure out more gamification elements to help people stay motivated in absence of a coach.

Philip Pape: 31:54

Yeah, that's always a tough one, right? Because people want to balance, they don't want too many notifications popping up getting in the way of their workouts, but at the same time, they want a reason to go in. I mean, for me, the reason to go in is just get big and strong, and if you're following an effective program, it should do that for you. But anyway, oh man, what was I going to ask? Oh, you mentioned already a couple interesting findings or tips from other coaches you've worked with. I'm just curious if you have any more things like that where you've, since you started developing the app, you've added a feature or a way that it calculates information or what have you based on what these expert coaches have shared with you in working with them? Does that make sense?

Michael Liu: 32:32

Yeah, I think the programs.

Michael Liu: 32:37

So when we first launched the app, we were digitizing a lot of popular programs from the internet onto the app and now, as we work with coaches, more and more to develop exclusive programs on the app. You know you can think of like a Netflix special, but for you know BoostGam original type of thing. But as we looked at, okay, what type of programs people love the most, what type of programs have the best retention are, you know they're typically programs that change in structure over time. So instead of just having a program that looks the same week after week, there's elements of the program that changes. So, for example, a 12-week program might be broken down into three phases of introductory volume, accumulation, intensification or you know the reps and the RPEs or percentages if there are percentages change over time Just having more progression in the program itself.

Michael Liu: 33:41

You know we found people generally like that a lot and they tend to want to stick to the program instead of it's almost like a freshness to it. Right that you start program hopping. They can still enjoy that freshness without having to switch the program and lose all the progression that they will be making. So you know that's definitely a big one that we learned hey, just wanted to give a shout out to Philip.

Jerry: 34:07

I personally worked with Philip for about eight months and I lost a total of 33 pounds of scale weight and about five inches off my waist.

Jerry: 34:15

Two things I really enjoy about working with Philip is number one he's really taking the time to develop a deep expertise in nutrition and also resistance training, so he has that depth. If you want to go deep on the lies with Philip, but if also if you want to just kind of get some instruction and more practical advice and a plan on what you need to do, you can pull back and communicate at that level. Also, he is a lifter himself, so he's very familiar with the performance and body composition goals that most lifters have. And also Philip is trained in engineering, so he has some very efficient systems set up to make the coaching experience very easy and very efficient and you can really track your results and you will have real data when you're done working with Philip and also have access to some tools likely that you can continue to use. If all that sounds interesting to you. Philip, like all good coaches, has a ton of free information out there and really encourage you to see if he may be able to help you out. So thanks again, Philip.

Philip Pape: 35:18

That is a very, very big one, and you're hitting on spots that I've personally been thinking a lot about lately. And we talked about 531. We talked about Bromley. He loves base and peak phases.

Philip Pape: 35:28

I've seen myself like, if I'm just going to do the same lifts for week after week after week after week, I'm like I need something. Just for my mental health. I need something different. Even if you're like, no, you just got to grind it out, you know, just just keep doing sets of five forever. Right, I'm like, well, as a human, it's not going to work. So I think that's big and it's important for people to understand that that sense of variety itself is a driver of growth. Like you know, the fact that you have, like you said, different rep ranges, different percentages. Your body gets exposed to these things and that is a huge driver of growth. So I love that. You mentioned that. I think people should look for that when they're thinking of can I stick with this program for like four months, as opposed to having to hop around every four weeks to a new program because it's getting stale. So I love that.

Michael Liu: 36:15

One more thing I would mention too is just having more personalization elements in the app. So when we first started we only had programs from coaches and then we found that, okay, people want to be able to switch to different exercises, want to swap to their own exercises. So you know, having that being able to modify existing programs we found to be very important. And then taking a bigger step is being able to create their own custom programs. So I mean generally for newer lifters, I don't recommend it.

Michael Liu: 36:50

If they have a coach, like yourself you know, who's very knowledgeable, great right, you can create a program for them in the app and send it to them to follow. But for general beginner, even novice lifters, I would recommend they stick to a pre-made program for them, because you don't know what you don't know. So you could be wasting your time thinking of the best program and you switch that every few weeks and at the end you end up making no progress. But having the program creator I found to be another important feature in the app for people that are tired of following a program or they actually moved on to being intermediate or advanced lifter and they want to follow their own programming. So having that feature we also found to be very important keystone feature in the app that we didn't really think about when we first started BoostGap.

Philip Pape: 37:41

And I'm very glad it's in there, or else I wouldn't find it usable, like me personally, because I need to swap things out and when it comes to accessory lifts and equipment availability, it gives you a lot more flexibility and then you can swap it out and have it apply to future workouts, which I, like you know. Once you swap it, it's like do you want to keep this for the future ones? Yes, let's do that. The thing about programming in general, I think what we're revealing through this conversation is, you know, programming itself is a skill and everybody needs a different entry point and I think a good tool can help do that, whether it's Boostcamp or there's other tools, obviously, but kind of making it easy to jump in and do something effective.

Philip Pape: 38:17

It's funny you mentioned like pre-made programs, because sometimes people denigrate templates and programs, but in reality I think most beginners can follow a number of templates just fine and make massive progress and not overthink it and then start to learn oh, this works for me, this doesn't, let me tweak it. I think a really good coach that comes in like if I have a new client that's never lifted before, I'm probably going to get them on a very standard program. It might be my template, but it's still. I'm not going to highly customize it because I have no clue how they're going to respond. So if you're doing this for yourself and you like, download Boostcamp, think of that, just get into it, have fun, try it out and you'll know pretty quickly if it's for you and if not. There's a million other ways to do it. I want to ask you I know there's a premium version and I've seen that there are some programs labeled as pro. What's the difference with those versus the free programs?

Michael Liu: 39:09

Yeah, well, as we launched so many free programs on the app. We still launch all free programs, to be clear, but we now have premium only programs. So these are programs where we partner with a coach to deliver a lot more in-depth programming. So, for example, in the Paris Butler ball-dominant program, he's written a really complex program, Easy to follow but complex in terms of all the notes that he provides. We talk about. You know changes within a program. You know he's programming progressions. You know for every single week he's filming detailed instructional videos. You know to go along with the program. So you can think of them as a way for us to offer almost like coaching in some ways. Just you know a lot more personalized programming to help people, you know, get the results they want.

Philip Pape: 40:10

Yeah, that ties well with what we were saying before and I didn't realize the. You're right, the instructional videos can be customized because the default library it's like you know you go to Barbell Backsquat. It has kind of a silhouette animation of a back squat and what you're saying is maybe there's more custom YouTube videos linked in there, wherever the video comes from, in the pro programs and again, for people listening, like there's a ton of programs available for free. It's just you may find others that you really want that are in pro, even the one I'm following now. I'm a premium subscriber but it's free because it's the one I wanted to follow. All right, man, is there anything else you wanted to chat about regarding either the app or programming or lifting in general? You know I didn't bring you on here as like a lifting expert or program expert.

Michael Liu: 40:52

I'm definitely not.

Philip Pape: 40:53

But you've learned a lot, just like I have like, through the grapevine and through your relationship. So is there anything else that you wish I had asked or you want people to understand about all of this? Maybe the future of where this technology is going, or something else?

Michael Liu: 41:07

all of this, maybe the future of where this technology is going or something else. Yeah, I mean, I would say we really listen to user feedback and we develop new features very quickly compared to, you know, a lot of other app developers. You know we are very involved, like I answer, you know, every single user email. You know our subreddit. You know I try to answer user questions and participate in community discussions. So all of the features and all the programs that we've developed on the app has been through community engagement and feedback from users like yourself. So you know to the extent that anybody has any feedback for the app. You know we're always listening and, you know, willing to iterate and experiment and develop. You know, to make BoostCamp better. I guess from your perspective now, having used BoostCamp for quite a while for yourself and you mentioned you've sent programs to your clients as well, like you know what's your experience been like and what do you wish that we had yeah, man, good way.

Philip Pape: 42:11

Turning it back on me. I mean, little things come up all the time, as they always do. No app is perfect, right? There's always things, probably with when you customize an existing program, maybe just the interface being a little more intuitive. That's a minor thing, like I was able to figure it out like less than a day. Obviously it's figureoutable, but, uh, all of these things can be like less taps, less confusion of how you do it. That's the only thing that comes to mind, cause I think it's an amazing app and again, I use it. So, but I love that you do that. Like I use macro factor as well. Right the stronger by science guys, the same thing. They have a reddit and facebook group and they're like they got their roadmap planned out and everything and they're listening to folks. So as long as you're doing that, we know it's going to improve, even if there's things that people might have frustrations with now and, and that's that's the thing yeah, I mean the tough balance to juggle here is we're catered to both lifting enthusiasts and also complete beginners.

Michael Liu: 43:06

So when you talk about lifting enthusiasts especially those that are coming from like a spreadsheet, you need to have the advanced functionalities for them to create and edit programs as they would in like a Google Sheet. But then if you have all those functionalities laid out, then it's going to be extremely confusing to beginners who just want to get started working out. They don't want to be learning a brand new technology. So that's always like the struggle. Think about the UI, ux of the app when we have requests from people. Like you know, we have some requests from users on like really advanced analytics, right, or like a really niche feature that maybe 0.1% of people will actually use. You know, is that something that's more worthwhile developing versus another thing that you know it's more simple, that benefits more people? And so it's always a struggle to try to figure out like, okay, what makes sense, what doesn't make sense. Like we just launched something like for swap exercise that helps a small niche of programs but negatively impacts other programs.

Philip Pape: 44:22

Oh yeah, that happens right when you do an upgrade and people are like what happened to this thing? I relied on all this time.

Michael Liu: 44:28

It went away, yeah exactly, and what we thought was going to be improvement and it is improvement for certain use cases is actually a detriment in the other use cases. So there's just so many different demographics that we got to think about, and when you push out an update now, it's going out to hundreds of thousands of people. So it's something that, as we scale, we have to be very thoughtful in terms of what comes out, what doesn't come out. How do we prioritize different features and different designs?

Philip Pape: 44:58

Yeah, sometimes the feature's there and the user just takes a little more playing around to find it. Sometimes there's secret menus too. I don't think yours has a lot of those. But I'll talk to you offline about one thing I'm thinking of and see if you could tell me how to do it differently, cause it could be me.

Michael Liu: 45:14

Okay, yeah.

Philip Pape: 45:15

Yeah, it's a minor thing. Again, I love the app. I think this is awesome. I think the way that, like on your landing page, it says like the best app for lifters and when I first saw that I'm like that's a bold claim to make because there are a million apps out there, but the fact that, as a lifter myself, it does the things I wanted to do and maybe there's competitive apps that do that as well You're on the right path and I'm happy to shout it from the rooftops and recommend you guys. So those listening right now. Again, it sounds kind of like an infomercial, but it's because it's a helpful app and you're trying to lift and get jack, swole, strong, lean, whatever the word is you'd like to use. You know, go download the app. I'll throw the links into the subreddit as well. I think that would be cool. Boostcamp itself and anywhere else you want people to find you uh, yeah, I mean I would just say the.

Michael Liu: 45:58

The website and the subreddit are, uh, you know, the two places we're most active. Yeah, I recommend you check out the website and play around with the different filters to look at different programs. You know we talked earlier about the community programs, which I think you know. There's some pretty hilarious programs out there that people are creating and publishing. You know we're definitely thinking about better ways to display new programs as well incentivize users to create more programs. I think we've done a pretty good job so far with the product building and making the app useful. I still think we're very early on in terms of our ultimate vision of making the best lifting app out there.

Philip Pape: 46:42

Awesome, man, and, honestly, one of the best things I learned about you today before we recorded was this is your first podcast as a guest appearance, which I'm very happy to have you on Right Is that right First, and it shows that you're like a guy behind the scenes that just wants to get it done. You're not necessarily out there to just, you know, promote an app, so I think that speaks volumes. Thanks, man, for coming on. It was definitely a lot of fun. I think the listeners get a lot from the show.

Michael Liu: 47:04

Yeah, no. Thanks for being a great host, preparing the great questions. You made the first podcast appearance very easy.

Philip Pape: 47:10

Cool, awesome, awesome, awesome. Except I told you something in the app that needs to be fixed. Shouldn't have done that, because honestly, I love the app.

Michael Liu: 47:18

I mean there's. We get tons of emails about tons of things that need to be fixed, so I'm sure. Yeah, I'm no stranger to that Cool man, All right.

Philip Pape: 47:25

thanks for coming on.

Michael Liu: 47:26

Okay, thanks, philip, great chatting.

Not Another Thanksgiving Fat Loss Podcast! (Entropy from the Holiday Chaos) | Ep 246

→ Download my free guide to eating out, traveling, parties, and more or go to witsandweights.com/free

Tired of stressing about holiday food choices and being told to "just control your portions"?

Learn how the engineering concept of Entropy reveals why fighting against holiday chaos usually backfires. Instead, discover how to build a robust system that can handle any amount of disorder while still making progress.

By understanding how entropy affects your fitness goals during Thanksgiving, you'll transform holiday nutrition from a source of anxiety into an opportunity for growth.

Main Takeaways:

• Why fighting disorder creates more chaos (backed by thermodynamics)

• How to build flexible boundaries that maintain progress without perfect control

• The power of quick system recovery vs restriction after holidays

• Why periodic entropy makes your fitness system more resilient

Why Fighting Holiday Diet Chaos Always Backfires (An Engineer's Guide)

The usual holiday nutrition advice makes one critical mistake: it assumes you can maintain perfect control. But as any engineer knows, entropy (disorder) always increases in any system. Instead of fighting this natural law, let's use it to build a more resilient approach to holiday eating.

Understanding System Entropy During Holidays

In thermodynamics, entropy measures the degree of disorder in a system. Your nutrition plan is a system. When you try to maintain rigid control during Thanksgiving - tracking every bite, avoiding all "bad" foods, bringing your food scale to dinner - you're fighting against entropy. And that fight requires massive energy input that eventually leads to system failure.

The Traditional Approach Falls Apart

Here's what typically happens when you try to maintain perfect control:

• Restriction before the holiday creates unstable conditions

• Rigid rules increase stress and reduce adherence

• Small deviations cascade into complete system breakdown

• Recovery requires extreme measures that further destabilize progress

Engineering a Better Holiday Strategy

Instead of fighting disorder, we need to design a system that expects and accommodates it. Think about how modern buildings handle earthquakes - they're designed with flexible components that absorb shock rather than rigid structures that shatter.

Building Flexible Boundaries

Your holiday nutrition system needs:

• Baseline stability (maintain normal eating patterns before the holiday)

• Core anchors (minimum standards that maintain progress)

• Quick recovery protocols (return to baseline without overcorrection)

• Focus on trend data over daily perfection

Key System Components

Pre-Holiday Stabilization

• Maintain consistent eating patterns

• Keep protein intake stable

• Stay hydrated and active

Holiday Implementation

• Set minimum viable standards

• Focus on protein and hydration

• Allow system flexibility

Post-Holiday Recovery

• Resume normal patterns quickly

• Avoid compensatory restriction

• Monitor weekly rather than daily metrics

Measuring System Success

Success isn't about maintaining perfect control on Thanksgiving. It's about:

1. System stability before the holiday

2. Flexible adaptation during events

3. Quick return to baseline afterward

4. Long-term trend maintenance

The Engineering Advantage

When you understand entropy, you stop seeing holidays as threats to your progress. They become opportunities to test and strengthen your system's resilience. Just like moderate stress makes muscles stronger, periodic controlled chaos can make your nutrition system more robust.

Building Your Holiday System

Start implementing this approach next week:

1. Maintain normal eating patterns through Wednesday

2. Set clear minimum standards for Thursday

3. Plan your Friday recovery strategy

4. Focus on weekly averages over daily perfection

Remember: A well-engineered system doesn't eliminate chaos - it adapts to it.

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Transcript

Philip Pape: 0:01

As of this episode, thanksgiving is just one week away and I think the fitness industry is obsessed with giving really bad advice when it comes to the holidays, and it usually involves around tracking or avoiding or using moderation or some other very specific way to maintain perfect control during the holidays, which I think misses the point, because you're going to have chaos whether it's the holiday or not. That's life, and the question is how resilient you are against that. So today we're using an engineering lens to show you why fighting against this type of disorder is what usually backfires, and we're going to show you how to build a system strong enough to handle any amount of holiday chaos, which will then actually accelerate rather than derail your progress. Welcome to Wits and Weights, the show that blends evidence and engineering to help you build smart, efficient systems to achieve your dream physique. I'm your host, philip Pape, and today we are using thermodynamics to completely reframe how you think about Thanksgiving nutrition. What the heck am I talking about? Well, in engineering, entropy refers to the natural progression toward disorder in any system. But here's the thing, because well-designed systems can handle temporary spikes in entropy without falling apart, we're not talking about the overall entropy of the universe, where everything is just going to dissolve into nothingness. We're talking about day-to-day entropy, like a skyscraper swaying in high winds or your body maintaining temperature despite extreme weather, and we're going to apply this principle to your holiday nutrition approach. So if you're listening to this a week out from Thanksgiving when it comes out, or in the future leading up to any event, any holiday, any party in fact, where there's a little bit of extra chaos than normal from a food availability perspective, we're gonna talk about the strategy no rigid meal plans, no guilt trips, just a smart system designed to work with reality instead of fighting it.

Philip Pape: 2:10

And before we dive in, I just want to say I'm gathering some more questions for our upcoming Q&A episodes, so if you want to submit your question, you can either send a text message in the show notes or reach out to me on Instagram at witsandweights, or just say hello. You don't even have to ask a question. Just say hey, I love your podcast, or hey, you can do this better in your podcast. Whatever it is, I love to hear from people. So let's talk about what most people do during the holidays and why it fails.

Philip Pape: 2:38

They approach any holiday, say Thanksgiving, like it's a battle that has to be won, and I hear this a lot of times in the framing right. I have a vacation coming up, I have a holiday coming up, what do I do? How do I deal with it? And the premise is that you're trying to maintain some sort of control, and I'm all for being in control of your situation, but there's a level of control we're talking about here that is that's nearing perfection, right? The all or nothing mentality. Or even if it's not all or nothing, if, even if it's just hey, I have a plan and I want to keep sticking exactly to it. And so what do I do to do that? Okay, I need to make sure I'm tracking everything I eat, avoiding or including certain foods, stressing about the portions so that the calories don't go haywire, right? And if this sounds familiar to you, then I think that's the approach that is working against you.

Philip Pape: 3:29

It comes from a misunderstanding of how a system can work and why we use what we call physique engineering on this program. And here's where entropy comes in Entropy E-N-T-R-O-P-Y entropy. In thermodynamics, entropy is a measure of disorder in a system. How much chaos exists in the system? And the second law of thermodynamics tells us that entropy always increases over time. Always right. We fight against this natural tendency. It requires massive energy input. We're talking on the level of cold fusion, the level of stars, and eventually the system breaks down.

Philip Pape: 4:09

So now, this is just an analogy, of course, but think about how this plays out next Thursday, if you're listening to this before Thanksgiving, or just substitute any upcoming holiday or food event, a party, birthday party, heck. You start the day determined to track your food, maybe pre-log your meals, maybe front load your protein, maybe save up on some calories. And then Aunt Susan brings out her famous pecan pie. That wasn't in your plan, or maybe it was, but maybe not quite the amount that you ended up having. Your cousin makes a new stuffing recipe which, by the way, if you have Thanksgiving at my house, you are gonna be blown away, because we make something called the Pape Sausage Stuffing Very simple recipe, but it's full of sausage, it's not bready, it's dense, so good, and it has a lot of fat, it has a lot of calories. So you gotta, you know, kinda think about that if you're trying to think about things. But anyway, it's super delicious.

Philip Pape: 5:04

Someone tops off your wine glass when you're not looking. I mean, come on, it happens, you know, maybe throw a little whiskey in your eggnog. I'm not saying we have to imbibe on alcohol, but these things happen in the holidays, right? The more you try to maintain perfect order, the more chaos creeps in until finally the system fails. And you know what I'm talking about. You are the system. You either end up binge eating and feeling guilty or you become rigid and you can't really enjoy your time because you're trying to make it all work.

Philip Pape: 5:32

Do the macro Tetris, track all the things and this is coming from me, yes, the guy who says we should be tracking and measuring things Absolutely but there is a flexible way to do it. And this is where most podcasts coming out for Thanksgiving and I admit I am taking advantage of the attention to this holiday, but most podcasts on this topic will tell you you just need to buckle down and try harder with whatever their specific strategies are. Now, to be fair, some podcasts will say, hey, just completely enjoy yourself and don't worry about it, and in my opinion, that's probably the best kind of default strategy. If you had to pick one, because it is just one day and generally just one meal, okay, but being that we are engineers here and we know better, and I know you're gonna face situations like this quite frequently, not just Thanksgiving.

Philip Pape: 6:25

Instead of trying to eliminate entropy right, which is impossible, we just want to design a system that expects and accommodates disorder. So think about how a modern building handles earthquakes I was going to say hurricanes, but that's probably too close to home, given all the tragedy we've seen over the last year or so here. But earthquakes Engineers don't try to make buildings rigid, right, they build in flexibility. Have you ever seen a really tall building zoomed in, where they show it just slightly swaying in the wind? You might have even felt it. When you're up high in a building or on a bridge or something like that, the structure actually becomes stronger because it can adapt rather than fight against it. Right, it's not going to break against that force, and your personal nutrition system needs this same kind of intelligence when you design it. We build what's called robust stability. Your system can handle perturbations right, as my kids would have said years ago when we read the Fancy Nancy books that's a fancy word for disruptions without falling apart. That is what we're trying to do.

Philip Pape: 7:30

I talked to one of my clients on this podcast a long time ago and her name is Heather and she talked about actually being in a literal earthquake and her system holding up, her system of training, nutrition and whatnot. And it wasn't because of some obsessive level of tracking, it was because of a flexible level of routine, right, and those are very different concepts. So I'm going to give you four ways to implement this next week for Thanksgiving, and these would apply in general to really anything that comes up that is like that okay, birthday parties, holidays, vacations, anything going out to eat. And the first strategy is simply to plan for entropy. What do I mean? I actually don't want you to say to yourself okay, thanksgiving is Thursday, so I'm going to restrict my calories big time in the days leading up.

Philip Pape: 8:17

Now, I used to advise some form of this strategy. It's called calorie banking and I still think there is an opportunity to shift your calories around in a given week. But I much more prefer that you plan to do that regularly and weekly rather than do it as a last minute strategy, if that makes sense, because when you do that, it creates unstable conditions, which, ironically, amplifies the chaos. It creates kind of a pressure cooker and instead of maintaining your normal eating patterns leading up to the holiday, you're now forcing yourself into this very unstable eating pattern, which may even lead to some binging and way overconsuming on the holiday. Do you see what I mean? And so we don't want any anything in the way we do things to feel unstable or forced. We want to plan it in in a way that is is real to us. Okay Now, if that means that you know every, every weekend, you have a refeed and you increase to maintenance calories and on the weekdays you're in a dieting phase, that's perfectly fine if you plan it in that way consistently and then it becomes your routine.

Philip Pape: 9:26

But we don't want to add to the chaos by, like, cutting calories and going on a fast or not eating in the morning at all and then going crazy at Thanksgiving. It's just really because, think about it Now, you're just giving yourself three or four days of some level of misery. That takes away from the holiday as far as I'm concerned. So that's number one is just plan for entropy. Like entropy is going to exist, allow it in, allow it in, accept it. Okay, accept the entropy and don't try to fight against it.

Philip Pape: 9:55

Number two the second strategy I have out of the four strategies today, is to create flexible boundaries. This is the. This is the bedrock of flexible dieting that we talk about on the show. Whether we talk about minimums or ranges or or boundaries, constraints, whatever you want to call them. We want to have minimum standards that allow us to maintain progress no matter what's happening, no matter how chaos it is, chaotic it is, without requiring perfection, and for a lot of us that's something like hitting our protein targets right. Getting a minimum level of protein. Now, to get a minimum level of protein.

Philip Pape: 10:33

Heading into a holiday where there's a lot of food, it shouldn't be a problem, right, like it shouldn't be a problem to eat more than something. It's when we try to cut and restrict where the problems happen. So, hitting protein targets, getting in your morning walk right. If you like to walk, get in that walk on Thanksgiving. Get in it every day, right. Staying hydrated it's your anchors of order, that's what I'm going to say. Your anchors of order that help your system stay grounded, even when all these other variables fluctuate. And I'm sure you can come up with others, but again, we don't want things that feel unnatural to what we normally do. We wanna have minimum standards and ranges that would allow for us to be successful and hit them even when there's lots of chaos, which was number one, the chaos that we've allowed into our lives.

Philip Pape: 11:19

Number three is to focus on recovery, and what I mean by this is, if we're gonna use the engineering analogy just like a bridge or anything that has force on it applied to it returns to center after done swaying, or if you think of a rubber band, you stretch it, you let go, it comes back to its original shape If you have a clear strategy to get back to your baseline after the holiday, that's a good thing, right? Not by restricting, not by punishing, not by making up, but simply resuming your normal routine on Friday. Now, friday's Black Friday. That may be yet another reason to be a little bit off your routine, and that's okay too, but the goal is we are shifting, we are converging, we are gradually getting back to our baseline as soon as we can, and the quicker you can get there, the less impact the entropy will have. You'll see it in your rear view mirror. You'll move on. No big deal. It is just the noise in the signal.

Philip Pape: 12:15

And number four, the last strategy, is to measure what matters. Okay, and what do I mean by this? If you are the person who is tracking your food and you want to track your Thanksgiving dinner? I'm not going to tell you not to. I'm not going to tell you to track it. Okay, I'm going to say, when we track at all, we are thinking of things over time. We're thinking at weeklies and monthlies. So, because Thanksgiving or a Christmas party are usually a single day or a single meal, most celebrations are right. You're rarely feasting for days on end. Now, maybe if you go on that week-long cruise, it's a different story, in which case I wouldn't even worry about it. I would go to maintenance and just say enjoy yourself and then come back A single day of this entropy, or even if it's amplified entropy, it doesn't define your progress, right? Any more than that. One windy day determines a bridge's integrity, like if we're going to we're going to take this analogy to the extreme right your system works if you're trending in the right direction over time, regardless of this entropy that you've made room for. And so, when we summarize all of this, here's what the people are missing and what a lot of these podcasts are missing about entropy and order.

Philip Pape: 13:24

It's not about eliminating the chaos. It's about building robust systems that can absorb chaos and return to baseline right. Your body does this constantly with homeostasis. It regulates temperature, ph balance, whole bunch of other things. When you view Thanksgiving or any holiday this way, as a temporary increase in entropy that your well-designed system can handle, you stop seeing it as a threat to your progress. In fact, these periodic challenges listen to this these can make your system more resilient.

Philip Pape: 13:58

It's a form of stress that makes you stronger. It's just like moderate stress on your muscles when you lift make you stronger because you have foundational habits and now you're strengthening them over time, regardless of short-term chaos. And every one of these bits of chaos just teaches you a little bit more about yourself and gives you a little bit more resilience, because you come out of it the other end, back to your baseline, you're confident, you know what you're doing and you make progress over time. All right. So the holidays do not have to be a source of stress, at least in this context. There may be other reasons to stress you out having to do with family members or what have you but when it comes to your nutrition, your training, it doesn't have to be a deviation from your goals. It's entropy, it's chaos, it's a little bit off on that day, but it doesn't mean you as a person or with your system has deviated from your goals because you're working with it, you're not fighting against it, and then you could just enjoy the season. Think of next Thursday, think of Thanksgiving or any other holiday. And, by the way, if you're listening to this and you're not in the US, I just totally maybe lost you as an audience. I'm not sure, but think of it as a chance to test your system's resilience, not as a threat to your progress. All right, if you want to learn more about any of these kinds of concepts, follow the podcast, go check them out.

Philip Pape: 15:10

My Wednesday episodes usually get into the a little bit of a nerdy kind of engineering lens. My Mondays are deep dives. My Fridays are interviews. If you didn't like this episode, you'll like another. If you don't like any of them, let me know. Hopefully you love them and you'll follow, and you'll give a five-star rating on a review. If you took a moment to do that, maybe as a holiday gift to me, that would be awesome. I'd be very grateful. And that is it. Until next time, keep using your wits lifting those weights and remember, sometimes the best way to maintain order is to embrace a little chaos. I'll talk to you next time here on the Wits and Weights Podcast.

Osteoporosis and Barbells (How Lifting Weights Prevents Bone Loss) | Ep 245

Could lifting heavy weights be the key to stronger bones and a longer life? What if you could reverse bone loss—even in your 70s?

Philip (@witsandweights) tackles one of the most overlooked aspects of health: bone density. Learn why the traditional advice about osteoporosis falls short and discover the science-backed power of strength training. Philip shares practical tips and key principles to build stronger bones, improve mobility, and maintain independence at any age. Whether you're 30 and proactive or 70 and looking to regain vitality, this will shift your thinking about bone health forever.

📧 To learn more about lifting weights, workout programs, and tips for strength training and building muscle, join my FREE mailing list at witsandweights.com/email

Today, you’ll learn all about:

1:10 The reality of age-related bone loss
2:54 Common myths about bone health
6:51 Three key principles for bone adaptation
11:07 Why bodyweight exercises and cardio aren’t enough?
12:25 Misconceptions about lifting heavy weights
16:17 The transformative benefits of strength training
17:23 True strength training vs. lifting weights
19:42 How bone adaptation mirrors muscle growth principles
21:30 Outro

Episode resources:

• Join Philip's FREE mailing list at witsandweights.com/email

Related episode:

• Why Women SHOULD Load Their Spine for Stronger Bones

How Strength Training Prevents Osteoporosis

Traditional advice about bone health has it all wrong. While calcium supplements and light exercise have their place, the real key to maintaining strong bones lies in something far more powerful: strength training with weights.

Most medical professionals and fitness magazines push the same tired recommendations: take your calcium, get some vitamin D, and maybe do some walking. While these aren't inherently bad suggestions, they're woefully incomplete. They miss the fundamental principle of how bones actually adapt and grow stronger.

Your bones aren't static structures - they're living tissue that constantly remodels itself based on the demands you place on it. This is known as Wolff's Law: bones adapt to the forces placed upon them. When you only perform light activity, you're telling your bones they only need to be strong enough for light activity.

After age 30, we lose 3-5% of our bone mass every decade. For women after menopause, this loss accelerates dramatically. Without intervention, this gradual decline can turn a minor fall into a life-altering injury.

Strength training provides three key elements that make it uniquely effective for building and maintaining bone density:

1. Progressive Loading

Just like muscles, bones need gradually increasing loads to grow stronger. Light weights and bodyweight exercises eventually hit a ceiling - they simply don't provide enough stimulus for continued adaptation.

2. Compound Movements

Exercises like squats and deadlifts load your entire skeletal system, triggering bone adaptation throughout your body. This comprehensive loading pattern is far more effective than isolated movements or machine exercises.

3. Mechanical Tension

Heavy lifting creates significant forces that your bones must adapt to - forces far greater than anything you'll experience in daily life or traditional exercise.

Common Misconceptions About Lifting for Bone Health

"Isn't Heavy Lifting Dangerous?"

This fear gets it backward. While proper form and progression are crucial, the controlled stress of strength training is exactly what your bones need to grow stronger.

"I'm Too Old to Start"

Research shows significant improvements in bone density from strength training even in people in their 70s and 80s. Your bones maintain their ability to adapt throughout your life - they just need the right stimulus.

Beyond Bone Health: The Compound Benefits

Strength training doesn't just build stronger bones. You'll also experience:

• Improved balance and coordination

• Enhanced muscular stability around joints

• Better hormonal health

• Increased metabolic rate

• Greater body awareness

• Maintained independence as you age

Taking Action: The Path Forward

The science is clear: strength training is one of our most powerful tools for maintaining bone health throughout life. Whether you're 30 or 70, it's never too early or too late to start. The key is focusing on fundamental movement patterns - squats, deadlifts, presses, and rows - and progressively loading them over time.

Remember: your bones are literally getting stronger with every rep. The question isn't whether you should start strength training - it's whether you can afford not to.

📲 Send me a text message!

👩‍💻 Book a FREE 15-Minute Rapid Nutrition Assessment

🎓 Join Wits & Weights Physique University

👥 Join our Facebook community for live Q&As & support

✉️ Join the FREE email list with insider strategies and bonus content!

📱 Try MacroFactor for free with code WITSANDWEIGHTS. The only food logging app that adjusts to your metabolism!

🏋️‍♀️ Download Boostcamp for free and access 70+ evidence-based workout programs

🩷 Love the podcast? Leave a 5-star review or share on social and tag @witsandweights

📞 Send a Q&A voicemail

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Transcript

Philip Pape: 0:01

Most people know that bones get weaker as we age, but what if I told you that many of us are approaching this problem completely backward? Medicine has led us to believe that bone loss is inevitable, that calcium supplements and basic movement and exercise are our best defense. Yet research shows there is a far more powerful approach that not only prevents bone loss, but actually builds stronger bones at any age. Today, we're going to uncover how lifting weights yes, actual barbells, dumbbells, machines could be your best defense against osteoporosis and bone loss. You'll learn why the conventional wisdom falls short and how strength training might be what's missing in the longevity approach. Whether you're in your 30s and want to prevent bone loss before it starts, or you're older and concerned about maintaining independence, this episode could dramatically change how you think about bone health and aging. Welcome to Wits and Weights, the show that blends evidence and engineering to help you build smart, efficient systems to achieve your dream physique.

Philip Pape: 1:10

I'm your host, philip Pape, and when we talk about aging and health, bone density often takes a backseat to more visible concerns like muscle mass or body fat. But here is the sobering reality After age 30, we start losing bone mass at a very alarming rate. It's about 3-5% per decade. So for many people, especially women after menopause, this loss accelerates dramatically. The consequences are that even a minor fall that would have been just an inconvenience in your younger years could now lead to a life-altering fracture, hospitalization, getting on medication and other worsening side effects. But today's episode isn't about fear, although that can be a motivator. Today is really about empowering you with information to completely change your life. We're going to talk about how strength training with weights not just barbells although I think that is a very powerful and effective tool can be your secret weapon against bone loss. Now, if you want a lot more free content related to strength training and lifting weights, supporting your metabolism, building muscle and all of this and you want some exclusive insider content, just join my free email list using the link in my show notes or go to witsandweightscom slash email. I drop lots of emails with these kinds of mind shifts and what to do about it, and addressing the things that those in their 30s, 40s and beyond often care about and bring up as questions in their fitness journey, and osteoporosis and bone loss is definitely an important one. So, again, join my email list. You'll get those free emails that I don't send anywhere else Go to witsandweightscom slash email or click the link in my show notes.

Philip Pape: 2:54

All right, so I'm very excited about today's topic because I think it's the first time we've ever discussed osteoporosis and bone loss in detail on the show, even though I've alluded to it many times in the context of strength training. And so, to set up the episode for you, we are going to first talk about why traditional approaches to bone health, like the ones that you read about in the newspaper fitness magazines, are often not enough. They're just not adequate. Then we're going to dive into the principles of strength training that make it so effective for bone density, and then we're going to uncover why alternatives like body weight exercises, often aren't enough, followed by the connection between muscle and bone development, and then we'll look at some misconceptions. So I'm trying to pack a lot into this episode, but there are aspects that come up frequently among clients and listeners you know like is heavy lifting safe? It is, you know, high impact worth it for osteoporosis, things like that, and so I want to get into each of those and then reveal the benefits of all of this stuff that even go beyond bone health, just to tie it all up. So let's start with why the conventional wisdom, I think, needs to be addressed.

Philip Pape: 4:03

As always, right, we talk about misinformation and it's disinformation. Misinformation or just people run with the same standard advice that has gone on for years and then they never actually addressed the thing that's going to impact you the most. It really frustrates me. So I still read the paper, the physical paper, I think. Sunday they always have like a little health article and I was excited because the other day they had an article about you know why you should lift weights and muscle mass and all of this, and it was great. They actually, I think, mentioned Mike Zordos, who's a evidence based guy, and I'm like, wow, to see this in the paper is incredible. But 99% of the time it'll be something like I have osteoporosis, what do I do? And then the standard advice is all right, you got to look at your calcium supplements, your vitamin D, you need to make sure you're moving, you're doing some exercise, you know, go ahead and walk, all of that, and it's like where is the? You know, learn to lift weights and load your muscles and bones, because that's going to not only help with the situation, it could potentially reverse it right.

Philip Pape: 5:03

Here's what most people don't realize Bones are living tissue. Bones are constantly remodeling themselves based on the demands we place on them. You know we think of muscle because muscle's, you know, soft Actually I hope my muscle's not too soft anymore, but muscle is like you know, it's soft tissue. We think of bones as these firm, you know, solid structures. It's like adamantium and wolverine right, like they're just fixed in place and they don't change. But it's not true. They are a living tissue that can adapt and remodel themselves. And there's something called Wolff's Law, w-o-l-f-f where bones adapt to the forces placed upon them. Ah, just like muscle. Oh, so that's a huge clue. We can do something about it. We can cause stress and adaptation to our bones.

Philip Pape: 5:46

When you're only doing light activity, you're telling your bones they only need to be strong enough for light activity, which is our baseline. Just walking around, just doing light stuff, carrying the groceries that's light activity. Unfortunately, as you get older, that light activity is offset by the reduction in bone density to where you know you have less and less of it. Right, and think about when someone is bedridden they lose bone density rapidly. Or even somebody, unfortunately, in like a nursing home who's sitting down all day. It's because the bones aren't experiencing any significant stress whatsoever, and so the body adapts. So if that happens and we know the opposite is also true when you place appropriate stress on bones through weight-bearing exercise or I'm going to use the term training because it needs to be methodical, systematic and progress over time your bones respond by becoming stronger, just like your muscle.

Philip Pape: 6:41

Now, what makes strength training itself so uniquely effective, uniquely effective over anything else in the world in existence for bone health? I think that it comes out of three principles, three key principles that drive bone adaptation. And then, if you can understand the principles, you can change how you think about your exercise and training program, as well as aging itself. Exercise and training program as well as aging itself this is the powerful stuff that made me realize when I turned 40, that I could do things that made myself a year younger every time I got a year older. And that's just a simple concept. I mean. In reality, it's not that exact one-to-one type of deal, because otherwise I'll be like Benjamin Button and I'll be five years old when I'm 90. It's not what I mean. But what I mean is I am not beholden to age, and neither are you, all right. So the first principle is progressive overload.

Philip Pape: 7:33

Now I like a different phrase that I heard from Dr Jordan Feigenbaum. He calls it progressive loading, the idea that we're not actually overloading our muscles, we're just loading them enough right to their limit so that they have to adapt. But anyway, just like muscles will not grow stronger if you lift the same weight forever, if you're doing the same pink dumbbells or the same cable stack weight on the machine, your muscles aren't going to get stronger, they're going to get just strong enough to do that and then that's it. Same thing with bones. Bones will not get denser without gradually increasing the load over time, and this is where the traditional exercise programs for bone health fall way short. We're talking about stretching and mobility and yoga and walking. Okay, it's great to be active, but none of that is going to help you progress your bones beyond what they are needed to be to support your body weight or very light loads. Just by definition, you as an organism don't need to because you're telling yourself I don't need to. So progressive overload, progressive loading, which you're going to do anyway for your muscles guess what? They help your bones. Great, two for one.

Philip Pape: 8:37

The second principle is compound movements. Okay now, compound lifts, compound movements are those exercises that involve multiple joints and large muscle groups working together as a system in a movement pattern. Think about a squat. It loads your entire skeletal system, from your shoulders down through your spine, your posterior chain, your hips, your legs, even your calves and feet to an extent even your calves and feet to an extent. And this comprehensive, systematic loading pattern is a natural human movement and it triggers bone adaptation throughout your body, not just in an isolated area. This is why I don't like isolation movements as a singular form of training, like if you've never lifted before and then you go and just do isolation movements. Not only do I not think that cuts it, I think you're setting yourself up for potential injury simply because you're trying to hit one spot and you're not working on the rest of the muscles and joints and bones around it, and therefore the weak spots can really be a bottleneck or a potential source of injury. So, compound lifts, using your whole system. I think the older we are, the more important that actually becomes, particularly for bone density, because you're using your whole system All right.

Philip Pape: 9:52

The third principle, then, is mechanical tension. Now notice, all of these principles apply to strength training and muscle mass as well. So mechanical tension is not just your moving weight, it's you're creating significant force, you're applying significant force that your bones then have to adapt to. And that's the key right Is that when you're combining that with progressive overload, going right to that limit, your bones then get a signal, or your hormones get a signal that your bones have to adapt to be a little bit more dense, thus stronger the next time, along with your muscles. They all go hand in hand. So this is why heavy lifting, when done properly, is so effective.

Philip Pape: 10:33

The forces involved in a heavy deadlift or squat are far greater than anything you'll experience in daily life or traditional exercise, and therefore they equip you for well more than what you need there in daily life and will offset the decline that you would otherwise experience with aging, and it'll make you way more capable as an older person than all the other older individuals. You see, which is great. I mean that lets you show up, that lets you live a long, healthy, vibrant life, keeps you off medication, keeps you out of the hospital, keeps you from disease. And this brings us to an important question then why aren't body weight exercises enough? Why is cardio not enough? All right, now, don't get me wrong. These all have their place in an active lifestyle, but it comes down to physics. A push-up might engage your upper body, but the load is limited to your body weight. Of course, you can put your feet up higher at an angle. Now you've got a little bit more body weight, but it's your body weight. In fact, it's a fraction of your body weight. Right, because some of the load is being transferred into the ground.

Philip Pape: 11:34

A typical barbell bench press, on the other hand, can safely, safely, very safely, expose your bones to two, three or four times that force. Same applies to your lower body. Right, walking or jogging doesn't create enough mechanical stress to optimally stimulate bone growth, whereas a squat absolutely is going to. And keep in mind, a barbell is probably the most effective tool for the job because it's safe. Right, you can set up spotter arms. It's symmetrical. You can load it progressively, even with small increases in weight. You can use microplates and load it progressively forever, effectively. Right, and we know that we can use our normal human movement patterns with a barbell. Right, picking up deadlift, squatting, squat, you know. Vertical press, horizontal press, you know you've got rows, you've got pulls, all of that good stuff. So that's kind of the foundation.

Philip Pape: 12:26

Now where it gets interesting is the connection between muscle and bone development, because when you're strength training, you're not just building muscle or just building bone. You're actually triggering a cascade of adaptations throughout your body. So listen to me carefully here. Strong muscles create greater forces on bones. Those forces then stimulate bone growth. The process of building muscle increases production of hormones that also support bone health, and so it's a beautiful synergy that you can't replicate with anything else. It's all cascading together. All right.

Philip Pape: 13:02

Now let's talk about some of the misconceptions that I think still hold people back, that I hear all the time. This is kind of like my Q&A segment in here, just with the A part, the answers. So first is the idea that lifting heavy weights is dangerous, which is ridiculous. Okay, lifting weights is probably the safest activity that we know. When you compare it to like all forms of movement and activity in sports and you look at the rate of injury it's one of.

Philip Pape: 13:30

If you're older, if you're worried about bone density, I think this fear is actually backward, because, yes, you have to start appropriately and progress gradually, but the controlled stress of proper strength training is exactly what your bones need. It's like thinking that you shouldn't brush your teeth because it might wear them down. The opposite is true. Right, they're going to wear down unless you brush them Another misconception I'm too old and I can't get started. I'm already too weak, my bones are already brittle. I already have osteoporosis. I'm already taking Boniva or whatever it is. I already have to take my calcium supplements. I think the research completely debunks this. Studies show significant improvements in bone density from strength training, even in people in their 70s and 80s, just like we see with muscle mass, and so I'm firmly convinced at this point it is never too late to start. Never, never, never.

Philip Pape: 14:24

Your bones maintain their ability to adapt throughout your life. You're human. That doesn't change. All they need is the right stimulus. So the benefits of strength training, as I've alluded to before, go far beyond just preventing fractures, although that's extremely important, because falling is one of, if not the top, cause of death. When you look at like proximal cause, it leads to other things. That then often leads to death down the line, and I've seen it with people in my life as well, where it just upends your life completely and makes so many other things harder to do. And then we also, if you've never been strength training before and you have a fracture. You're then even less likely to start it because you think, well, now I can't because I've had this fracture or some other injury.

Shonnetta: 15:10

Hi, my name is Seanetta and I want to give a big shout out to Philip of Wits and Weights. I discovered his podcast just a few short months ago, but I quickly realized how valuable his content is. With all the many fitness and nutrition influencers out in the world today, I often suffer from information overload, but Philip poses careful questions to his guests that get to the meat of the subject matter, while most everyone offers free guides to this, and that what I found most unique about Philip is his live training and weekly Q&A sessions. If I can't make it live, I can always catch the replay. I am very grateful to find someone I feel is so passionate and genuine to his purpose, while also being hands-on within the Wits and Weights online community. He is truly only a click away. Thanks, philip, for all you do. Online community.

Philip Pape: 15:55

He is truly only a click away. Thanks, philip, for all you do. So. Obviously, training and developing strength and bones are going to prevent them as well. So if you fall even if you do fall because I can fall I'm 44 and I can trip on a rock and fall I fell when I was like 10 and I broke my arm you are much less likely to have a fracture or much less likely for it to be an issue, because you're stronger.

Philip Pape: 16:13

You have stronger bones, stronger muscles, especially like those little, like a small fall that for a younger person, would be no big deal. And so when you train with weights, especially compound movements, you're also building and improving balance and coordination and mobility. You're building stronger connective tissue between all the joints. You're enhancing the stability of your muscles around the joints. You're boosting your hormonal health Ladies right, hormonal health. This is a massive lifestyle change that will help with your hormones. You're going to increase your metabolic rate so you burn more calories, you can eat more food, have more energy coming in. You're also going to have better metabolic rate, so you burn more calories, you can eat more food, have more energy coming in. You're also going to have better body awareness, whether you want to call that mind-muscle connection or just balance and mobility. It's very important because then you're not going to fall as much, you're going to have more independence, you're going to have better long-term health. You're not just avoiding osteoporosis, you're maintaining the ability to live life fully as you age. Every one of those reps in the gym with that load that's pushing you is literally reshaping your body's architecture to be more resilient.

Philip Pape: 17:32

So let's talk about what strength training looks like compared to what most people think of as lifting weights, because that's another pet peeve of mine of as lifting weights, because that's another pet peeve of mine, right? A lot of traditional workouts or YouTube videos or what used to be in the magazines, or people who just go to the gym and they don't have a plan. What they end up doing is a ton of repetitions with lightweights, like they just do lots of reps, lightweights, 10, 20, 30 reps, lightweights. They use the machine, the circuit program, and they do the same weights every time, and I mentioned before that that is not going to help. That's only going to get you to a certain point, and oftentimes they're focused on isolated movements. You think of some of these machines. They put you in a fixed plane and you're just doing this isolated, one joint movement.

Philip Pape: 18:08

Now, is it better than nothing? Sure, when I see an older person in the gym, just there, I'm like, okay, I'm super excited for them because they're at least focused on trying to be healthy. But then when I see no progress being made, I'm like, well, you're kind of maintaining a minimal. That's probably better than most people, but a far cry from where you could be to really thrive and get the benefits of true strength training. And it's training, true strength training. You're not actually training when you're just using the machines randomly and the weights aren't going up, because the magic happens when you focus on those fundamental movement patterns. The squats, hinges, deadlifts, presses, rows right. Those movements, when progressively loaded over time, create the environment for muscle and bone development. Like we mentioned before, they train your body as an integrated system rather than a collection of parts. So it's super important and if you hear this and you're still not sure what to do, that's okay.

Philip Pape: 19:05

My plan isn't to like tell you how to lift weights today. I have a lot of other episodes that do that but I would say, just reach out to me or join my email list and reply and say, hey, I heard your episode about osteoporosis. What do I do next? Because I need to understand your level of training, advancement, your equipment, how many days per week you can work out things like that, just to kind of put you in the right direction, even if it is to send you to a template or video or resource that I have, all of which are free. You know, I don't charge for any of this stuff unless you tell me then, hey, I need the accountability, support and personalization that a coach provides. Then you know, let me know, but I do have a lot of free resources that'll get you going.

Philip Pape: 19:45

Now, something fascinating that most people don't realize about all of this that the way that bones adapt to strength training is remarkably similar to how muscles grow. I mean, I mentioned it earlier that they're living tissue, right, but even if you weren't thinking about muscles and you only cared about bones, bones need increasingly challenging loads to maintain and build density, and that will be way more effective than any medication or supplement. And I'm not a doctor. It's outside my scope of practice to tell you to take or not take anything like that that your doctor told you to. But seriously, folks, the same principles that help us build muscle and strength are also helping us build stronger bones, and that's the two-for-one benefit that you simply can't get from any of the other approaches. And so you know, just to put Bo on that, all right. As we wrap up, I want you to remember this isn't just about osteoporosis or osteopenia or, you know, just preventing fractures. It's building that foundation for a long, active and independent life.

Philip Pape: 20:44

Think of the things that you want to do when you're 70, 80, 90. Look around you, look at your family, think of your family history and what happens to people when they get older. And whether you want that or not I'm guessing you don't but what do you want? Take it a step further what do you want, what is aligned with your values that you want to do, and don't let the limitations of traditional getting old thinking get in the way. Assume I want you to assume, that you will be able to be as strong and fit and healthy as a 50-year-old when you're 70, 80, or 90. As a typical 50-year-old, you're going to be at least as strong, healthy and fit 70, 80, 90. And assuming that, what does that look like for you? And tell yourself that that is why you want to lift weights right, not just to build stronger bones, but a stronger person, a functional person.

Philip Pape: 21:34

Now, if you're listening to this and you're 30 or you're 70, doesn't matter. Never too late, never too early to start. You start now. I want you to start now. I want you to either reach out if you need help with how to train and what kind of programming would work for you, or just go out and do it. If you have the resources, if you have support, if you have a coach, whatever, I don't care, go do it. If you have the resources, if you have support, if you have a coach, whatever, I don't care, go do it. Go do it.

Philip Pape: 21:56

The research is clear Strength training is one of the most powerful tools we have for maintaining bone health throughout our lives. All right, so remember, if you want some weekly evidence-based tips about strength training, building muscle, also losing fat, hormones, optimizing your health and you're not going to find these anywhere else with the approach that I take, in the way that I take it, plus my quirky personality, you're not going to get anywhere, of course, until I'm able to clone myself someday in the future. Join my email list using the link in the show notes or go to witsandweightscom slash email Again. Just join my email list. That's also how you can reach out to me and we can have a conversation. Until next time, keep using your wits lifting those weights and remember your bones are going to get stronger with every rep, no matter your age. I'll talk to you next time here on the Wits and Weights Podcast.

Why Training Too Much Is Killing Your Muscle Gains (Natural Bodybuilder Jeff Alberts) | Ep 244

Are you pushing to failure in every workout but not seeing the gains you want? Do you think longevity in bodybuilding means constantly increasing intensity? What if smarter, more mindful training could unlock sustainable progress without constant burnout?

Philip (@witsandweights) sits down with Jeff Alberts, the “Godfather of Natural Bodybuilding,” to redefine how to train with purpose. With over 30 years of experience in natural bodybuilding, Jeff coaches athletes to build muscle intelligently through a 3D Muscle Journey. Together, they dive deep into the principles behind sustainable training, revealing why pacing yourself, prioritizing recovery, and respecting individual limitations can lead to a long-term, injury-free journey in the gym.

Jeff Alberts is a WNBF Pro natural bodybuilder with over 30 years of experience in competitive bodybuilding and coaching. Through his company, 3D Muscle Journey, Jeff has helped hundreds of natural athletes achieve their goals by emphasizing a thoughtful, evidence-based approach to training and nutrition. His philosophy focuses on sustainable, injury-free progress and efficient training, making him a trusted mentor in the natural bodybuilding community.

📲 To learn about progressive overload, why it’s important, and how to use it to maximize your muscle gains, download the free Progressive Overload guide here or go to witsandweights.com/free

Today, you’ll learn all about:

1:11 Who is Jeff Alberts?
3:56 The counterintuitive approach
6:56 Evaluating the progress
9:12 Guidelines for volume, intensity, and finding an individual threshold
12:23 Understanding principles of training
18:41 Failure: Use or Lose?
21:55 Harmonizing training-recovery and program design
27:12 Realistic expectations for natural athletes
33:05 Joint health, fatigue management, and connective tissue care
46:28 Dieting, fatigue, and pacing weight loss goals
52:16 Outro

Episode resources:

• Jeff’s Instagram: @3dmj_godfather

• 3dmusclejourney.com 

• Youtube: @Team3DMJ 

Sustainable Training for Natural Lifters: Master Your Muscle Growth with Expert Jeff Alberts

For natural lifters grinding away in the gym, pushing every set to absolute failure might seem like the path to gains. But what if this approach is actually holding you back? In this eye-opening episode, I sat down with Jeff Alberts, known as the godfather of natural bodybuilding, to uncover why training smarter - not necessarily harder - could be the key to unlocking your true potential.

The Problem with Maximum Effort Training

Let's be real: many of us fall into the trap of thinking more is better. We push ourselves to the limit every session, chase crazy volume, and end up feeling perpetually sore and exhausted. As Jeff explains, this approach often leads to:

• Decreased performance over time

• Increased risk of injury

• Mental burnout

• Stalled progress

• Joint and tendon issues

Master Your Movement Patterns First

"Let me practice that 100 pounds I hit for 10 reps," Jeff emphasizes. "Let's practice that one, two, three more times to get more competent with it, to master it." This focus on movement quality before quantity is crucial for long-term progress.

Understanding Training Pace

Jeff draws parallels to other sports, particularly baseball pitchers, who carefully manage their pitch count and recovery. This measured approach allows for:

• Better performance quality

• Reduced injury risk

• Sustainable progress

• Improved recovery between sessions

Managing Fatigue Intelligently

• Training frequency adjustments

• Strategic deloads

• Sleep optimization

• Nutrition periodization

• Volume manipulation

Natural Bodybuilding: The Long Game

Being natural means accepting a different timeline for progress. As Jeff notes, the often-cited "5-year genetic potential" assumes perfect training and recovery - something few achieve. Instead, focus on:

Sustainable Progress Markers

• Skill development

• Movement mastery

• Performance improvements

• Body composition changes

• Recovery quality

Training Variables to Experiment With:

• Rep speed and tempo

• Grip width and angle

• Range of motion

• Exercise variations

• Rest periods

Signs You're Training Too Hard

• Chronic joint pain

• Decreased performance

• Poor sleep quality

• Low motivation

• Persistent fatigue

The Bottom Line

For natural lifters, especially those over 40, training smarter rather than harder is crucial for long-term success. Focus on mastering movements, managing fatigue, and maintaining a sustainable approach that allows for consistent progress without burning out.

Remember: "Your muscle doesn't know numbers," as Jeff says. "Your muscle knows effort." Find the sweet spot between challenging yourself and maintaining quality, and you'll be set up for long-term success in your training journey.

📲 Send me a text message!

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🎓 Join Wits & Weights Physique University

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✉️ Join the FREE email list with insider strategies and bonus content!

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Transcript

Philip Pape: 0:01

If you've been killing yourself in the gym, pushing every set to failure and feeling perpetually sore and exhausted, yet your gains have stalled, or you're constantly fighting injuries, fatigue and burnout, this episode is for you. Today, I'm sitting down with Jeff Alberts, known as the godfather of natural bodybuilding, to reveal why training smarter and efficiently, and not always more, might be the key to finally breaking through those strength and muscle plateaus. You'll discover how to build muscles sustainably without the constant grind that leaves you dreading your workouts. Whether you're a serious, experienced lifter or just getting started, this episode will give you a new perspective on training intensity and help you create a sustainable, long-term approach in the gym that doesn't burn you out. Welcome to Wits and Weights, the podcast that blends evidence and engineering to help you build smart, efficient systems to achieve your dream physique.

Philip Pape: 1:00

I'm your host, philip Pape, and today we're discussing the art and science of sustainable muscle building with none other than WMBF Pro natural bodybuilder, jeff Alberts. Jeff is widely known as the godfather of natural bodybuilding. With over 30 years of experience competing and coaching, he's helped hundreds of natural athletes achieve their goals through his company 3D Muscle Journey, aka 3DMJ, and for anyone who's been following him for a while you probably can appreciate his thoughtful, measured and, of course, evidence-based approach to training and nutrition, today you'll learn why constantly pushing yourself to the max might be slowing your progress, how to increase efficiency in your training and practical ways to build muscle while staying fresh both mentally and physically. You'll discover how to manage fatigue intelligently and how to create longevity with your training. Jeff, it's an honor to have you on the show.

Jeff Alberts: 1:52

I appreciate you having me and yeah, after that introduction, hopefully I can deliver.

Philip Pape: 1:58

You'll definitely deliver, my man. So I mean just for the listeners. Jeff's a really cool guy. When I reach out to him to schedule this podcast, I usually send out some topics and things and he actually wrote back with thoughts on each idea and I was really impressed by that. It tells me what kind of coach he is as well.

Philip Pape: 2:13

But, having heard him on many other podcasts, I wanted to bring him on because you as a listener appreciate that data and evidence-based approach and many of us we're in our 40s I turn 44 tomorrow after we recorded this episode and I'm always reflecting on how do I get the most out of my lifting without getting too much pain, without having to have surgery or have something hold me up along the way. And, jeff, a lot of lifters feel like they have to push harder and they have to train with a ton of volume and they crash and burn. Then they switch up their program, they stop making progress even though in the short term they might. And so, for those who've been grinding at the gym, they go, you know, multiple days a week, multiple years, and they're not seeing the results they expect, or maybe it's slowed down. What is the biggest impact on their long-term growth at that point?

Jeff Alberts: 3:06

I got to say happy birthday first.

Philip Pape: 3:07

Yeah, yeah, yeah, thanks, man you still got a ways to go.

Jeff Alberts: 3:10

Yeah, yeah, you got a ways to go.

Philip Pape: 3:12

I do man, it's all good.

Jeff Alberts: 3:14

That's a long-winded question. That's pretty deep there. We're talking about longevity, right?

Philip Pape: 3:20

Yeah, I know, man, I totally. You know these opening questions. I'm like how simple or complex should they be? It's really like people wonder there are a lot of training variables and there's a lot of things you could change, and I think people change too much at one time of programming and the training variables. But they've gotten the tendinitis, they've had the hip, you know, the labral tear, whatever it is. You know they've kind of gone up or down and it felt flatlined, maybe for a while. What's the thing that they need to change or think about first?

Jeff Alberts: 3:56

Understand pace, Because I mean, think about what are we trying to accomplish here? You know, if we're talking about natural bodybuilding, it's a long man's game. You're not playing nine holes of golf, You're trying to play 18. So you got to learn about pace and it's like, yeah, we can look at all these shiny new toys that are out there and, like you know, we're gung-ho as far as trying to implement all these new things and, you know, trying to be really scientific, what it comes down to is what's practical and what is sustainable.

Jeff Alberts: 4:28

And for myself personally, you know, I always think about, like, what my current context is. You know I'm talking about life context. Same thing with my athletes that I coach like what does their actually daily life look like? And then from there it's like, okay, what can we do? What can we do that's going to be productive, but yet it's time, efficient and you're able to recover from it. And then from there, of course, you can kind of build things out, but I think it just comes down to pace.

Jeff Alberts: 4:57

Like the reason I'm still doing it this long, it's kind of just understanding that I have to pace myself. And you know I took myself back to my 20s, 30s, Like, obviously you can get away with a lot more things because your body is a little more pliable. So you know, there's some things I was doing that I'm sure I could have gone back and say, hey, let me improve upon the approach, and it would have been more of a conservative approach. I probably would have seen better progress because of it. But now it's like I really have to pay attention to my body. You got to pay attention to what life's throwing at me and in a sense, like I keep saying, just controlling that pace is just so important and you know it is. We always want to get further ahead, a lot faster. So that's the problem, Like sometimes we just get in our own way, in a sense.

Philip Pape: 5:41

Yeah, I've heard people joke, especially the older lifters, that no matter how much you hear this message on a podcast, it's like until you experience it you know you don't truly learn the lesson, and hopefully we can help people not have to experience more than they need to. But uh, you have kids, right, do you have kids?

Jeff Alberts: 6:00

Yeah, I have kids, I mean, yeah, you tell your kids you're blue, your blooming face, don't do that. Don't do that because you know it's going to happen. But they don't listen. And then they experience it and they're like oh okay, now I know what you're talking about. So it's like I mean Sticking that fork in the light socket. It's good to you, know, throw out some seeds, but I mean, you got to have them watered too. I just got to let people experience things as well.

Philip Pape: 6:22

Yeah. So I think that idea of pace and it strikes up in me the idea of, when we talk about efficiency, finding that minimum to make progress without going past that point Right. And there's a lot of discussion about overtraining, overreaching, building up fatigue and so on. I guess, when it comes to efficiency, what's the prevailing angle of attack here for efficiency? Is it minimum effective dose? Is it like let's strip everything back and start from a very basic low volume approach?

Jeff Alberts: 6:52

What's minimum effective dose.

Philip Pape: 6:54

Okay, yeah, you tell me, what is that. What is that?

Jeff Alberts: 6:57

I have no idea. Like I know what it is for me because I got enough experience, I've tried on air. It's so much to kind of know where that sweet spot is for me. But if I have someone that I'm working with for the first time, I have no idea what they can handle, how they respond to it. It's a lot of trial and error. So it's like okay where science comes into play. It's like okay that 10 to 20 sets you know general guideline Okay, if I'm working from that, if I have someone who's new to lifting, like 20 sets probably not going to go over too well because they don't have the skill level yet with things. So it's like maybe 10 sets is too much. Like I just want to focus on getting this person learning, teaching them how to move from A to B effectively, not so much worrying about the progress or the progressions with their lifts, more so like teaching them a skill. So it could be maybe it's six sets a week and let's just really make those six sets Like, once you learn how to move, okay. Now it's like let's focus on trying to move heavy things with that type of skill and improving the load, improving the reps over time.

Jeff Alberts: 7:58

And how are we responding now? Is your physique improving from that? If it is great, we may not have to do anything for a while, like we may not have to increase the volume. Eventually, you might get to a point where they're plateauing out. You don't see as much progress, strength kind of plateauing out. Then the question becomes okay, are you handling this? Are you low energy or high energy? And if you're handling things really well, it's like okay, now I feel more comfortable giving you more work because you have the supply to keep it going. But if it's because of fatigue, last thing I want to do is add more volume or more workload.

Philip Pape: 8:31

Yeah, that's a good starting point. Then, if you mentioned evaluating the progress and then going from there, how does so? I know I mentioned more experienced lifters early on, but there is kind of the different categories Somebody who's brand new to this versus somebody who's experienced. Somebody brand new is probably going to be very responsive to almost anything. So let's jump ahead a little bit and say they've been lifting six months, maybe 12 months at least, and they're looking for that point. Are you looking for them to report out on RPE? How are you collecting that data of the response session to session? And then, when you say physique development, are you just measuring and you know, using body measurements or what's your gauge for that?

Jeff Alberts: 9:11

I think you use all the above. So if we're talking from a performance perspective, it's like, okay, are the numbers moving? But are the numbers moving with skill? Because you can see numbers in a spreadsheet and go, okay, yeah, it looks like eight reps, nine reps, 10 reps, whatever. It's like, okay, it looks like it's moving up, but then you watch the form, see how they're moving, that skill isn't there and it's like, okay, that's not being efficient, that's probably not being effective. So, like you might need to clean form up. Maybe you need to take a step back and go, okay, bring your loads down or whatever.

Jeff Alberts: 9:42

And let's again hone in on the skill and what I've been doing lately, even for myself, because I've obviously I've been lifting for a very long time and I take pride in my skill level and form and all that. Like, whenever I get to a high end of a rep range with a certain load, I won't immediately go up to a new load. I'll probably roll with it one to three more sessions just to really ensure I'm very competent with it, like I've mastered it, because I know when I do increase the load from that point I'm probably going to have the same type of skill with the new load. You've probably experienced this, where you touch a load for the first time, you might get the reps a little shaky. You're like, okay, I completed it. Then you go to the next load. You know, the following week it's like oh, it's just all over the place. So from a skill component, I'm always thinking like okay, let's master what we're doing first, before even thinking about taking a step forward.

Philip Pape: 10:32

That's important, what you just said, because you're talking about load specific skill. I think a lot of people think it's like one and done. Like okay, I've been progressing, I've gotten better with my form, Now I'm good right. Like no, like you said, the center of gravity shifts. You know the balance, everything about it just slightly shifts the heavier it gets, and the bar path and all that could change if you don't change something. So that's a powerful concept, jeff, seriously, that people need to think about.

Jeff Alberts: 10:58

What you think about is like it doesn't mean you can't continue to make progress with that same load, like you should be hitting the appropriate proximity to failure, even if it's the same load, so you're still getting a stimulus. Your muscle doesn't know numbers. Your brain does, but your muscle doesn't. Your muscle knows effort and that's something like right now. I feel like, because I am advanced, I can have no spreadsheet whatsoever, not even count or track anything, but I know I'll get a stimulus every workout and because of the skill, getting to the appropriate proximity to failure.

Philip Pape: 11:28

And is this generally? We're talking generally week to week progress in a typical program, like a four or five day split where you're talking your your squat variant on Monday to your next Monday. Is that generally what we're talking?

Jeff Alberts: 11:40

about. I mean yeah, but I mean that's only going to last so long. I I mean yeah, but I mean that's only going to last so long. I mean eventually you're going to run out of like runway, like you're not going to be able to progress weekly, like the more advanced you are, you're like you might be able to get 10 pounds over six months.

Philip Pape: 11:53

In which case are you? Is that even more biased toward rep progression?

Jeff Alberts: 11:58

Depending on the lift. Yeah, yeah, okay, I mean, yeah, I think about you try to increase your loads every week. At that point it's like, yeah, you're going to end up being buried.

Philip Pape: 12:07

I think a lot of folks are curious about that, because people get frustrated when they get stronger and they're not progressing. They know they've heard time and again okay, I'm intermediate or I'm advanced, my lifts aren't going to go up as quickly. How do you get the sense of progress session to session?

Jeff Alberts: 12:25

Okay. So let's look at I've been going to my son's karate classes. Right, he started out as a white belt and now he's red black. He's maybe a year away from black belt and like when I go to his classes, you know the expectations of a white belt, a yellow belt, blue belt, like it's all different. So sometimes we expect to go from white belt to black belt, you know, and maybe the pace early on is faster, but as you get closer to black, like then there's first degree, second degree and it takes longer. I'm assuming it does. People are probably listening to Marshall, I just got a jet. That's not true, but I'm assuming like going from first degree to second degree it's going to take quite a while. Second to third takes even longer. Like my son's master is a fifth degree black belt. So like I can only imagine like when he first got his black belt, the fifth degree, it probably took quite a while.

Jeff Alberts: 13:12

Or look at olympic sprinters to get like a temp faster. They're training like four years to make that happen. Olymp to Olympics. So I think the expectation is like the more advanced we get, we just have to come to the realization that things are just going to move a little slower. And the thing is right now. Because I've been training for so long, I appreciate where I'm at right now a lot, because I know how hard it's taken me to get to this point and I know how hard it is to maintain it. So there's a level of appreciation for just what I'm capable of doing right now, even if it means I'm not putting on any more muscle. And I think that's where some people fall short. They're always like wanting to go, move ahead, move ahead, move ahead, take a step, take a step, take a step but they're not slowing down and appreciating what they're actually accomplished.

Philip Pape: 14:04

Yeah, and that's kind of the topic we're getting at today is, and that's why I think it's more relevant to more intermediate to advanced lifters is they want to see the progress they used to have and may not in the same way. It's progress that has to be measured differently, and the question for some of them is how do I shift my perspective and what I measure to properly gauge that and not feel like I'm just plateauing? Right, that's part of it. And then also, I don't just hop to another program, like, okay, it's not working for me. I'm going to go to Westside now, and now I'm going to go to the six-day hypertrophy program over here, considering that my audience is probably a normal curve but shifted slightly more toward less experience.

Philip Pape: 14:42

But not you know, what would you say to those people and I'm thinking a lot of guys my age who basically, like they started with starting strength or something like that, five by fives, and they shifted over to some sort of split intermediate programming and they're expecting, you know load to keep going up and, like you said, it's not going to happen. So what do they switch to? And I'm asking you what sounds like dumb questions. I hope I know some of these answers, but for the audience, yeah.

Jeff Alberts: 15:06

No, they're good. They're good questions and, like I consider myself someone who uses intermediate programming. But I've mastered it because I know with intermediate programming the principles are in place and that's what it comes down to is understanding principles of training. Once you know principles then you get a lot more comfortable with programming because you know there's nothing magical about an upper-lower split, a push-pull leg split, full bodies like all that stuff. As you know, it's just ways to organize your frequency, your intensity and the volume.

Jeff Alberts: 15:39

So when you think from that perspective, it's like this week I can run an upper-lower split, next week I can do push-pull legs. The following perspective it's like this week I can run an upper lower split. Next week I can do push pull legs. The following week I can do a full body split. And as long as I'm, you know, hitting my baseline volumes, that what I need. I'm able to perform it really well. I get to the appropriate proximity to failure with skill, I'm getting plenty of recovery, I'm well fueled. You know, chances are, across those three weeks it's probably going to be the same result at the end of the day. Maybe some very tiny maybe differences one way or another, but we're talking like splitting hairs and that's why I wore a hat today, so I don't have to show my bald head.

Philip Pape: 16:14

I understand. No, no, all good All good.

Jeff Alberts: 16:16

Oh, that's a joke.

Philip Pape: 16:16

All good.

Jeff Alberts: 16:17

Yeah, but I think that's just as an intermediate. It's just like because you're not, because, in a sense, when you're a beginner intermediate, you're not where you want to be yet, so there's going to be a sense of urgency. It's a double-edged sword, though. If you're like pushing yourself too much or you're trying to flip-flop training programs because you're trying to look for this shiny object to get you there faster, but at the other side of the sword it's like because you're changing maybe things up too frequently, then you kind of lose sight of, like, what's actually working and what's not, because you're changing things out too much. That's why I'm an intermediate programmer for myself, because it's just straightforward, it's very consistent. It's easier for me to assess what's working, what isn't working. Things that work, you keep it in there. Things that don't work, you're like let me explore.

Jeff Alberts: 17:05

But it's not changing out the entire programming. I might say, well, okay, this certain exercise, you know it's not really grooving right now, and then you find a different movement that's going to hit the same body part. Let's change it out and see how this one works. So I'm only changing one, maybe two variables at most. Okay, now I know. Like I ran this for two months Now I know exactly what happened with this. One change was either positive or negative, and again, it's a positive, keep it. It's a negative, find something else and eventually you keep evolving. You keep evolving over time and that's how you get experience. That's how you get more comfortable with keeping an intermediate program. In a sense, keep it an intermediate program.

Philip Pape: 17:43

in a sense I like that you're almost qualifying the word intermediate as if it could be taken as an insult, right for an advanced person. I like how you frame that.

Jeff Alberts: 17:50

I can take starting strength and probably make it advanced running it, because there's a difference in skill level versus me now, versus me in year one. I can almost guarantee you I probably make well. I'm getting older, now it's harder to make gains, but you know what I'm saying. Guarantee you I probably make well. I'm getting older, now it's harder to make gains, but you know what I'm saying. I can probably perform exceptionally well using that and recover well because of the skill level yeah, I mean, you're the poster child for those listening who don't know, jeff already white belt, black belt.

Philip Pape: 18:15

Right, there's a yeah yeah, look up, jeff, though I mean again, age is not a factor on this, he demonstrates that. But you talked principles, and that's like the magic word. I did want to come back to that because everybody has their like. Here's my five pillars of lifting, or my three principles, and you'll talk about progressive loading or overload. You'll talk about mechanical tension and talk about volume, frequency, intensity, like, can you simplify that for us? Like, in your mind, what are those principles?

Jeff Alberts: 18:41

I think when we think about okay, so if you talk about, we're talking about programming, right, yeah, programming, I mean we could look at the science, right, Okay, we got to hate body parts two or three times per week, maybe four, but I think four is a stretch for most everyday people. Even three can be a stretch. Even once per week can elicit some progress. So I mean sweet spots, maybe two or three times a week. So you look at that volume. We know the 10 to 20 sets thing. But again, I lean more towards on the lower end. When I'm starting somebody out, it's skill development first and then after a while you're like okay, maybe we can start gravitating higher. But I think of that. Okay, we're 10 to 20, somewhere in that ballpark.

Jeff Alberts: 19:20

Proximity to failure based on a rep range. So we know through the science, anywhere between five to 30 reps creates hypertrophy. So it's more about proximity to failure in relation to the rep range. You're using Lower reps, you can be further away from failure. I mean celestity within reason, and then the higher the reps are, you got to get close to it or very like a rap failure to ensure you are getting enough muscle fiber you know, while you're doing the lift.

Jeff Alberts: 19:49

So when you look at those principles, it's like okay. So then from there, I'm like okay, based on someone's context, the question I'll ask somebody is how many days per week can you train where it doesn't interrupt your life schedule? Because when you're in the gym, the last thing you want to be worrying about is I got to take my kids to school or my wife's upset at me, because I'm in the gym for three hours, or I'm there six days a week. I'm not spending time with the family. So when you're in the gym, you just want to be stress-free. So that way, when you are lifting, it's just all about you and that's where you're going to get probably your best performance.

Jeff Alberts: 20:26

So once I know how many days per week they can train, then it's like okay, can I get the frequency two to three times, or does it have to be used to be once? Because that's going to be practical. It may not be optimal according to science, but it's optimal according to that person, based on their constraints. So they're going to maximize themselves far better because they're doing something that's going to be lower stress. And then from there you get into the weeds. Like okay, let's talk about exercise selection, like, okay, this guy on this podcast said this is the most optimal thing. I look at it as like does the exercise hit the muscle I'm trying to target? Is it safe and comfortable for me? Do I have good stability while doing it and do I enjoy doing it? Because if those things check out, then it's a good exercise, regardless of what anybody else says.

Philip Pape: 21:18

Yeah, those are solid principles. I like how you said this is optimal for the person, right? Because at the end of the day, it ties back to what you mentioned earlier about pace and what's practical, sustainable and what is your life context. I laugh when you talk about days per week, because for me personally and I've seen it with a lot of my clients that often is the thing, that's the main constraint, and if you're hung up on that or you get fixated on the other principles and so you pick this program and you just can't stick with it because of your life, like, forget about it. I also think of sleep in that regard, right? Or fat loss, where you've got all this extra stress, you might want that extra day just to sleep an extra hour, and that can make all the difference in the whole week.

Jeff Alberts: 21:55

So people try to you know, I want to train six days a week because they think more is better, or the insecurity they think they're not going to make gains if they're not there. Or some people just love to train to a fault. Yeah, I would love to be in the gym seven days a week because obviously I love to train, but I also know that's not realistic to my life schedule. It's also not realistic to my recovery and I've said this on other podcasts. But I don't look at bodybuilders that much anymore.

Jeff Alberts: 22:24

To learn about bodybuilding, I look at other sports because they do a far better job at managing their performance and their recovery, because sports is all performance-based. So you look at football, baseball, basketball, baseball is a good example of starting pitchers. There's a reason the managers keep track of the pitch count and the number of days they're pitching in a week because they know if this pitcher is getting fatigued they're not going to have the velocity and the control on their pitches. But as body lawyers we're like, hey, let's just throw 150 pitches. To me it just doesn't make sense the way people think about bodybuilding sometimes. So I'm like let me use these principles from other sports and apply it to my bodybuilding, apply it to my athletes and usually you get a nice balance, nice harmony with performance, recovery plus real life stuff.

Philip Pape: 23:15

Yeah, that's a great point because I'm big into sports documentaries now the ones like on Netflix. There's one that just came out called the Comeback about the Red Sox Yankees 2004. It's funny you mention that because both Pedro and also Curt Schilling they talk about both of them Pedro being pushed to well beyond his limit in the series that they lost in 2003, and then the manager was fired for it. And then Curt Schilling, he had a tendon issue and he just could not pitch. It was like the first game of the series in 2004. And then when he came back the next time, they talked about how a surgeon like did this wonky, you know, stapling his tendon to his bone or something on his ankle to stabilize it.

Jeff Alberts: 23:53

Yeah, I remember the bloody sock Remember.

Philip Pape: 23:56

Yeah, the bloody sock, exactly. So I'm like that is such a great example of taking what the heck do athletes do Tom Brady, getting 11 hours of sleep you know that'd be great to see what they do to manage this fatigue. So I want to play off one of those principles. Then that comes to mind is the proximity to failure. I think there's a lot of misunderstanding there as well. You kind of you reiterated the understanding that there's a wide rep range to choose from. So let's get out of the old school, like strength versus hypertrophy regime or whatever. But a lot of people do think they have to train like really right up to failure. And you know, I know Dr Israel Till and others have always thrown out the two to three rep range. And then even more recent research, I think that Mike Zordos, the big main analysis that came out recently, talked about like six reps from failure even being effective so what is that?

Jeff Alberts: 24:43

what is that, though, like?

Philip Pape: 24:44

what do you?

Jeff Alberts: 24:44

mean like if I have like someone who's new or even an intermediate, yeah, what's six reps in the tank, like I don't even know what. Six reps in the tank so far, yeah, exactly, yeah, yeah it's even hard to gauge what four in the tank is for me oh, you're right, like rpe gets criticized for that yeah one to two reps in the tank, that that's pretty easy. It's like hey, I can tell you like I need you to, like when you think you just can't do anymore.

Jeff Alberts: 25:07

Just when you mentally think you can't, you probably do two reps, you're probably really close to where we need you to be and without having to get like overly analytical on things. And then failure is like I mean to teach failures like they'll just have someone do a tricep, press down or a lateral and say hey, I want you to go until you just cannot move anymore. Then you get a better gauge?

Philip Pape: 25:30

Yeah, so what do you think of programs that are so? We mentioned starting strength earlier and there's many examples of that that are sets across like get all the reps and then progress, the load type programs. Again, maybe this is going more toward newer lifters. They're not thinking of proximity to failure, they're just thinking get all the reps and increase the weight next time. Right, not a bad idea to pay attention to, like take notes.

Jeff Alberts: 25:52

Hey, I hit 10 reps, I got the top end, but how many more could you have done? Was that like if you barely squeak that out, or it?

Philip Pape: 26:00

was kind of easy. And then that informs the jump for next time perhaps.

Jeff Alberts: 26:04

Yeah. So it's not just, instead of just analyzing the numbers, analyze actually how it felt to move those numbers. And it kind of goes back to what I said earlier, like even though I hit that top end and I hit all my reps across the board and first time I'm not going to, okay, jump to the next load, I'm like let me practice this. Going back to sports, right, like people get better at sports by practice. Let's practice that. 100 pounds I hit for 10 reps. Let's practice that one, two, three more times to get more competent with it, to master it.

Philip Pape: 26:40

I think that's undervalued. Yeah for sure. I think that's why people should stick with certain lifts for more than a couple of weeks, you know, at least early on, just for the practice alone, let alone the progress and neuromuscular adaptation and all that. You mentioned, the getting the data and letting that inform your jumps. I had a client text me and she said something like so my plan is to jump by this many pounds and then when I get to this load I'm going to drop it. I said no, no, that's the kind of backward. Get to this load, I'm going to drop it. I said no, no, that's kind of backward. Don't assume anything. Three, four weeks down the road. Let's judge session by session. You may be able to go up higher.

Philip Pape: 27:06

I don't want to even put limits on yourself until you get there, or maybe less right, so that's good, all right, so you're a natural athlete. There's a big distinction for natural athletes specifically and the life of their training and the expectations. I think some people skew what they think they can get maybe out of bodybuilding or physique sports in general. What are your thoughts on realistic expectations for natural athletes? And I'm thinking muscle growth, but I really mean the longevity stuff we're talking about here.

Jeff Alberts: 27:37

I mean, everything comes to an end right, and that's with anything in life. So I think here for me, like I thought about this the last few years, because I haven't really seen too much muscle size, like realistically I don't think I'm probably going to get any bigger, because I can tell my joints are kind of preventing me from lifting, probably you know, heavier loads and that type of thing, but also just age.

Jeff Alberts: 27:59

So it's accepting that like come to the conclusion like, okay, things are slower, especially with natural bodybuilding. It's slower. I think we just have to come to terms and embrace that. But it doesn't mean you can't have a long shelf life with progress. You've probably heard the five-year. You know shelf right.

Philip Pape: 28:17

It's like Genetic potential in five years. Yeah.

Jeff Alberts: 28:19

Yeah, five years, like I mean, that's assuming you're a perfect robot. Okay, yeah, maybe you get all that in five years. How many perfect robots are there? First year, you're learning how to lift. Still Second year you're like, okay, now I'm learning how to progress. Well, so you're probably, yeah, you're making, you're starting to really move. You're going from white to get into the brown belt, you get into the red and the black belts and things do start to slow. But who's to say that it's over in five years? You might see a little more growth from years five through 10. Look at Eric. Helms is a good example 41 years old and he's still making some pretty decent gains. They're not as fast as when he first started lifting, but for an advanced lifter they're kind of fast. It's like kind of seeing some nice changes and he's learning more about himself, though that's the thing. He's learning how his body still ticks.

Jeff Alberts: 29:12

Even myself, as you evolve, you learn yourself. Like years one through five, you might've done certain things. Years five through 10, you started changing, you're evolving. Years five through 10, you started changing, you're evolving. And then years 15 to 20, same thing. But progress is more than just putting tissue on, because if you're a competitive natural body or there's a skill component of learning how to diet, learning the pace of the diet, retaining muscle mass. That's something that I learned in when I was 38 years old. I got in our pro cards A little late in life, but I was 160 pounds. Two years later I competed as a pro. I was 170 pounds. It was a 10 pound difference. Everybody was blown away. They're like there's no way this guy's natural. He didn't gain 10 pounds of muscle in two years at 40 years old. No, I just learned how to diet better. I learned how to retain muscle better. So there's different levels and there's different ways to create progress outside of just like I've got bigger muscles.

Philip Pape: 30:07

When did you actually start seriously training? How old were you?

Jeff Alberts: 30:11

Well, I started lifting at 14. I've always been. I didn't know what I was doing, but I can go back to when I was a teenager. I was lifting hella hard. Like all I knew was lift hard and go to failure. Early on I had really fast development from 14 to 17. I packed on a decent amount of muscle and by the time I got to high school I was benching 330 at 165. So I had some pretty fast gains. And then since then it's kind of been like up and down, up and down, and that's just because of my knowledge level. Like back then there was no internet, so I was like kind of just doing things on my own, trying to figure stuff out. So there was a lot of ups and downs.

Philip Pape: 30:48

And when. The reason I ask so selfishly? But also again, I know a lot of guys like me who didn't start until, in my case, late thirties. I mean, I did CrossFit for like eight years up and down, but that was not lifting. And so I'm in my first one to five years, at the age of 44. And I don't even know if I've taken full advantage of that. But there's probably a lot of people wondering maybe, what's the potential for a 40-year-old? What's the potential for a 60-year-old?

Jeff Alberts: 31:12

Okay, let me ask you a question, as you brought up for yourself. So you've been hypertrophy lifting for five years, six years.

Philip Pape: 31:20

Since 2020.

Jeff Alberts: 31:25

2020. Out of the last four years.

Philip Pape: 31:26

How much of that time have you spent in a?

Jeff Alberts: 31:28

deficit Probably a year, so three years. Are those three years like well-structured training? I think so, yes.

Philip Pape: 31:34

I believe so.

Tony: 31:35

Nutrition's been on point.

Philip Pape: 31:37

Yeah, I mean, I'm a nutrition coach, I hope so yeah, there you go.

Jeff Alberts: 31:40

So you still, I mean, you've got three years of like really dedicated hypertrophy lifting.

Philip Pape: 31:45

Right, so there's a lot of potential.

Jeff Alberts: 31:46

Exactly, you're only 44. So you still have, like, probably a good decade ahead of you where you can probably continue to maximize yourself. Whether that's 1%, 10%, 50%, who knows, but the thought is is like I'm going to try.

Philip Pape: 32:07

I'm going to try. I'm going to put that effort in, I'm going to make sure all the big rocks are in place and let's see what happens. Yeah, I was going to ask a different twist on that. The question was going to be well then, somebody who's older, what are they never able to accomplish because they started late? And I think that's a terrible question because it doesn't matter it is right.

Philip Pape: 32:18

You know right Like, but people are thinking that you know right like, but people are thinking that you know people beat themselves up, like I wish.

Jeff Alberts: 32:23

I said when I was 20. What's the worst that could happen? If you don't try exactly, then you can get massively there.

Philip Pape: 32:28

That's where you're gonna fail is you're not trying yeah, that's good stuff, man, I have to say, for folks watching or listening like jeff peers deep into your soul and again, he's probably a really good coach for that reason I try to make the podcast as real as possible, like everyone. It's good. It's good.

Jeff Alberts: 32:44

You know how many sets should I be doing? That's what I was thinking. Let's be real. Let's talk like practical Yep.

Philip Pape: 32:49

I agree. Yeah, I've spent a lot of time talking about tactics and I agree it's more fun to get into philosophy and approach. Or they can reach out to guys like you and me and say, okay, now how do I personalize that for myself? But okay, so what was the next thing I wanted to cover here? Fatigue management is kind of another corollary and specifically what I'm thinking is you mentioned yourself joint health and a lot of guys or women I hear about their back, their low back fatigue. Everybody has back issues. We know that quote unquote of some kind as they get older. But lifters especially, who might be dead lifting a lot or doing some other movement, how do we manage all that? How do we manage fatigue management? I?

Jeff Alberts: 33:31

guess the question right your rest days, your sleep, your demand is going to be your training itself Could be cardio, could be steps, life stuff, work relationships. If you're in a deficit, let's say you're in a deficit, that's a demand. So you kind of see where you're at with the supply and demand. Obviously, if you're in, let's say, in the dieting phase, cutting phase, your demand is going to be higher than your supply. So from that perspective you have to understand, let's say, in the dieting phase, cutting phase, your demand is going to be higher than your supply. So from that perspective you have to understand like, okay, how long am I dieting? Is this a short-term cut? Is it a long-term cut?

Jeff Alberts: 34:10

Short-term cut, you might be able to get away with a few more things because it's shorter in nature, no-transcript, and that's what's really key when obviously most people's goals is they want to get bigger or they want to be leaner. So in order to do that you have to manage the fatigue. So it's pretty important that your performance is elevated as much as possible so you can maintain that muscle mass. And then you think about your pace too. When you're dieting down half to 1% of your body weight per week, anything more than that. It's going to be a grind. It's going to be harder to perform, it's going to be hard to recover. Life's going to suck. Your spouse isn't going to like you too much. You're going to be moody, cranky, those types of things. So you have to take all that into consideration, I mean. But the whole podcast could be about fatigue management.

Jeff Alberts: 35:06

Of course I mean you can look at like going back to the sports arena, I was looking up, I was hitting up Google a few years back on NBA basketball. I was trying to figure out the winning percentages of teams that played back-to-back games, because usually NBA schedules they'll play two or three games a week more in there. So the back-to-backs, the second game, the losing percentage was much lower than the first game. Of course you take into consideration some teams are better than others, but in general, like the losing percentage was higher on the second game, which makes sense because they're tired they played the day before.

Jeff Alberts: 35:42

So again like sometimes with training, when you're like if you're training, let's say, two, three, four days in a row, that fatigue builds up. Naturally it's going to build up if you're well-fed, but imagine if you're dieting Two, three, four, five, six training days in a row, like you start getting beat up towards the end of the week. You're feeling it. So sometimes it's like, okay, how can we manage that? It's like, instead of training two or three days in a row, why don't you go every other day? You train hard.

Jeff Alberts: 36:08

Like as bodybuilders, we train hard. So he's train hard, take a day off, recover. He'd be refreshed the next day. Then he'd take another day off or he can go two on one off. So looking at frequency, that's something you look at Intensity, not training as close to failure. Maybe that can help. Maybe dropping down some set volume, eating more food, those types of things, more sleep, like I mean. Just the list goes on and on. But again I think looking at bodybuilders per se is like probably not the area I usually look towards first. It's more like those other sports.

Philip Pape: 36:46

No, I like that. I took a note because this is a. I want to build off that later on for another episode Because, you know, using other sports as an analogy, I don't think enough people do that.

Jeff Alberts: 36:52

And boxing here you know, boxing, boxing, like right Boxer goes out there. It's a hard round. Like well, I got to go 12 rounds here. Like well, I got to go 12 rounds here. And if I'm not able to knock this opponent out in the next one or two rounds, I got to pace this. Oh, you know, you've heard this. Boxers like okay, they took a round off. What does that mean? They're staying on the outside. They're staying. They're not trying to get hit, they're just doing enough to get them through the round. Now I'm going to go sit, go in there for a day or two and I attack hard like I'm going to pull back. I'm going to have a day or two. I'm just not trained and recover. So every time I'm in there I'm like fresh and getting the most performance out of myself.

Tony: 37:36

My name is Tony. I'm a strength lifter in my 40s. Thank you to Phil and his Wits and Weights community for helping me learn more about nutrition and how to implement better ideas into my strength training. Phil has a very, very good understanding of macros and chemical compounds and hormones and all that and he's continuously learning. That's what I like about Phil. He's got a great sense of humor. He's very relaxed, very easy to talk to. One of the greatest things about Phil, in my view, is that he practices what he preaches. He also works out with barbells. He trains heavy not as heavy as me, but he trains heavy. So if you talk with him about getting in better shape, eating better, he's probably going to give you some good advice and I would strongly recommend you talk with him and he'll help you out.

Philip Pape: 38:19

All right. So a couple of things come to mind then from this. First is just the general thought for folks who think that there's only one way to solve fatigue and that is to stop doing the movement or to switch movements. And you didn't even go there. You said think about the supply and demand. Oftentimes it's the supply you need more of, or less of the demand, depending on what's possible. You mentioned pacing just being a way to move your training around to help with the fatigue, but you're still getting the same, potentially the same, volume and intensity, even though those are other variables. What are your thoughts, then, on the opposite structure for helping with fatigue? And that is, let's say, you're doing three days a week and you switch to six days a week, but half the sessions. Is that a strategy?

Jeff Alberts: 39:03

That's a strategy.

Philip Pape: 39:04

Yeah.

Jeff Alberts: 39:05

So if you're doing, let's say just, let's just use whole sets of a workout, let's say you're doing 20 sets and you take it down to 10 and you're spreading it all out, yeah, I mean, it's going to be easier to get through the training session Result theory, of course easier to get through the session than maybe your recovery better. So the question then becomes you got to pay attention to is like okay, if you're going from three days. I don't know how your organ is three days, If it's, you know, one on one off, one on one off, or it's every other day.

Jeff Alberts: 39:31

Now you're going six straight days, so then you have to kind of pay attention to what are things feeling like on day four, day five and day six. Even though you've cut the volume in half, you still want to take notes on that, because even though you're doing less work too like think of your connective tissue you're using your connective tissue six days out of the week instead of three, even though it's less work. So you still have to just pay attention to all those variables. In theory it makes sense, but again you got to pay attention to it and personalize it for you.

Philip Pape: 39:58

Yeah, makes sense. So connective tissue again, segue, good segue. Let's talk about that. The joint health, the connective tissue. Maybe again there's some misconceptions there. Some people oversimplify this stuff like, well, if you lift heavy it's bad for your joints. We know that's not necessarily the case, but what are your thoughts on connected tissue, tendon health and things like that for older folks? Am I an older folk? I guess there's a correlation with age right. You said it yourself with a. I guess there's a correlation with age right you said it yourself.

Jeff Alberts: 40:32

It's hard for me to say how other people feel, what they feel. Like I know how I feel and I've noticed the last few years like, yeah, I got to pay closer attention to it. And, like you said, it's not so much the load, because sometimes I can handle load pretty well and sometimes the opposite. You would think like, okay, if the load is heavy hurts, I'm gonna go light low, but then your reps go way up. So now you're getting more. Like, yeah, now you're doing like 100 reps instead of 20, so that can wear your connective tissue out too. So, like, for me, what really helps me is rep speed, like rep cadence. Sometimes, like in the moment I'm controlling that, like you know, like when you're driving a car on a road, you feel a bump you're the moment I'm controlling that.

Jeff Alberts: 41:06

Like you know, like when you're driving a car on a road, you feel a bump, you're like, okay, I'm gonna avoid that bump and move the steering wheel or the traffic in front of me slowing down, put my foot on the brakes. That's kind of like I think, about my rep speed. I'm paying attention how things feel. So if my shoulder, like my right shoulder, gets pissed off quite a lot, like when I'm pressing, so sometimes like my elbow, I'll have to do this or I'll shift it in, I'll even move my shoulder in a little bit those types of things just to avoid, like you know, aches and pains that's really good actually.

Jeff Alberts: 41:35

Rep speed, cadence, grip width, grip angle those are really really good tweaks yeah, like, yeah, like, even like uh on my uh, like I do this movement, it's kind of like a hybrid press, fly, fly. But it's more like a press and a fly at the same time. So the way I hold the dumbbells in my palm someone asked me about this, like you know, about their shoulders and that movement, like I hold it this way, I didn't really realize I was doing it and the reason why it was more instinctual. But I realized is, instead of having that handle like flush and you're gripping it hard the dumbbells, like sitting in my hand and then put the tips of my fingers right in the middle of the handle, the pads of your fingers and thumb over.

Jeff Alberts: 42:13

Yeah, like it just eliminates the shoulder discomfort I have. I don't know why it just does. It's more of an instinctual. But those are the types of things that's worth exploring, whether you're young or old. Like if you're experiencing any type of discomfort, you play around with grip, spacing the way you're holding things red cadence Because oftentimes we'll look at like, okay, should we be doing like slow eccentrics? Should we do a fast, explosive concentrics? Because we're looking at science stuff. It's like how about you go by what feels actually comfortable for you?

Philip Pape: 42:47

Agree, yeah, like for me recently. I had rotator cuff surgery last year and for me, pausing, just pausing, made all the difference.

Jeff Alberts: 42:55

That helps. Yes, I forgot about those.

Philip Pape: 42:58

Even in like bicep curls, you just pause at the bottom and it makes it harder in a different way, even range of motion too.

Jeff Alberts: 43:04

Like I'll play around with that, like I'll cut range of motion short sometimes if there's. You know if I'm experiencing some pain, whether it's at the top or the bottom. Whatever I was doing a couple years back I was doing smith machine bench crosses, but I set the safety arms up to about two-thirds range of the motion.

Philip Pape: 43:21

I cut the bottom, like the stretch portion, out so it's a pin a pin, press a pin, press a pin, bench press.

Jeff Alberts: 43:26

Yeah, just like slow, eccentric Cause it didn't really bother my shoulders too much. Slow on the way down, maybe I don't know close to four seconds. Pause it at the bottom kills the momentum and then when I would start the movement. So instead of thinking of pushing off the pins with a lot of force, like a race car, for example, more like a diesel truck, like, let me just move it slow with a lot of torque, ease into it, ease into it, and then, as it goes, the bar's traveling up, then I'm pressing faster and that's to avoid the shoulder discomfort. Now the question becomes is that more effective than like just the traditional cadence, or more explosive using heavier loads? Mate, as long as this is why I see it, I could be wrong, but as long as I'm going to failure or close to it, I'm probably getting a stimulus regardless.

Philip Pape: 44:14

And, as you mentioned before, the alternative is you're not going to do it because it hurts. It hurts, yeah, exactly.

Jeff Alberts: 44:17

And it's a baseline too, because even though let's say it is suboptimal. It's my baseline, it's what I can do comfortably, and the goal is still the same. The goal is still to try to increase more load over time and more reps over time. So I'm still elevating performance and elevating volume.

Philip Pape: 44:31

Yeah, I like that. And there's so many movements, angles, ranges of motion across all the possible exercises that you could complement it with things to kind of fill in the gap, the example of a race or a car engine. I'm thinking like you know physics and power and explosiveness and speed. There's a whole velocity component to it. That is kind of the principle behind all this, almost, if we're to sum it up so that when you're listening to the show, if you want to train next, you know next time you go train, experiment with that, both at the bottom of the rep, like when you yeah, when you start a rep out, they think of it like if you, let's say, you're at a red light and you're in this Porsche, right, it's got some just high end, you know torque.

Jeff Alberts: 45:13

light turns green, yeah, you punch it, what's going to happen? More than likely the tires are going to spin out. You need the back end starting to squirrel anymore. It's like there's a lot of torque though, there's a lot of power, but there's more control. So that's kind of how I think about when I start some of my exercises out. I think more like a diesel truck versus the race car and it's in a sense it kind of keeps the tension where you want it throughout the entirety of the rep.

Philip Pape: 45:44

And that mind muscle there. Yeah, I'm imagining wheels spinning on my tendons and like wearing them down with the race car. That's good stuff, yeah. No, this is great being mindful and reflective of every rep, just to make sure, so like if we circle back tendon joint health, you know, rather than making drastic changes, rather than hopping around, tweak the movement you think is the offender, see if it makes a difference. Grip with angle, play with different bars too, like they've got multi-grip bars and you've got camber bars and like all this fun stuff. You could mix it up. Yeah, even like I'm thinking pull-ups and chin-ups. Again, you might find it's a game changer to just widen or shorten up that grip or go neutral. So good stuff, all right.

Philip Pape: 46:28

So I'm looking at my questions. We actually covered a lot of what I was going to ask. You even talked about, like you know, cutting and dieting, how the rate of your cut is extremely important and it adds to the stress if you go faster. I think that is really important because, rather than it being a training issue, it could be a resource issue. Right, it could be a food issue. And unless you have some timeline perhaps which I know bodybuilders do and they have a show if you can plan ahead far enough. It sounds like you know taking the most conservative approach that still gets you the result and doesn't impede too much is a good idea. But what about? What about the psychological toll of it? Taking too long, right Like now we're?

Tony: 47:05

getting into dieting here. No, I like it, okay, yeah because, it's a different perspective.

Philip Pape: 47:08

Yeah Right, it's like long and slow or really fast or super fast, like I know.

Jeff Alberts: 47:13

The answer is it depends, because different people respond differently, but it does depend, but I tend to lean more towards being conservative, because when you're conservative, you, in a sense, you have a bigger playbook. If you're giving yourself a short timeline to make something happen, it's almost like you have to be like perfect, here's a good way to think about it. Like if I gave you 30 seconds to tie both shoes probably get the job done pretty easily, right, and your shoes are going to look pretty clean, like you know, okay those bows look really good.

Jeff Alberts: 47:44

But if I said I'm going to give you 10 seconds or maybe eight seconds to tie those two shoes and I want you to make it look really good, chances are it's not going to look that great and the process itself is going to be super stressful yeah.

Philip Pape: 47:56

You're going to fumble through. Yeah, yeah, right.

Jeff Alberts: 47:58

Or or you're piloting an airplane and I give you a mile to get this plane off the ground, but then I gave you a quarter mile. What's the experience going to be like in those two different situations? What are the passengers going to experience? It's going to be a smooth takeoff in a mile. We're building speed up. We're going to get the plane off the ground. We're going to gradually get it to altitude. But quarter mile is like man, you better make sure you didn't eat too close to that takeoff, because you're going to lose your lunch.

Philip Pape: 48:26

And, Jeff, I'll tell you, on a landing it's even worse. I used to fly planes and when I had to do a short runway landing, this is just small Cessnas but like if I had my wife or a friend in there and there was a crosswind you're talking a weird angle and a steep angle and it's just they all got sick. So you a good example.

Jeff Alberts: 48:43

Am I good with the takeoff or do I need to change that up? I?

Philip Pape: 48:46

like to use that one. No, takeoffs are good too, because you need to crank up the throttle and you need to, but you have to have a minimum regardless, for physics you know to like work, but yeah, yeah, it's good. Okay, that's good to hear, because we do sometimes equivocate on all that and it's like, well, whatever works for you, but, like you said, you get more flexibility and options when it's a longer time frame and you're more conservative.

Jeff Alberts: 49:07

When it's short, though, when you're dieting like if it's short in nature and you're trying you know, let's say you're trying to lose 20 pounds in eight weeks, 20 or 10 weeks, even, something like that, that's super fast. Like you're going to have to be very aggressive. So you may think like, okay, I'm going to get this over with sooner, but you're going to suffer more in that time span, versus like I'm going to double up that timeline because now you're going to have a more conservative pace. So what you're actually experiencing is you're not as fatigued, so it's easier to cope in that situation. Versus like, oh gosh, and I'm only eating 1500 calories and I got to do like all these cardio sessions just to get this fat loss off. And then you're training, training stuff.

Jeff Alberts: 49:45

So the end goal is to look the part. It's not if I hit a certain number, it's actually, it's more visual than your bodybuilder or even if it's a cosmetic goal, like you want to look the part. At the end of it you want to have your muscle intact. So I always feel like you're giving yourself more time. And then the life factors too. You know you think about a short timeline. You may not have the luxury of, like, being able to take your wife out for dinner on a Saturday night because, oh, I got up to 1500. I can't do it. I am on so low calories, but I have doubled the timeline. I'm like, well, I'm going to create a buffer, I'm going to take my wife out and I'll have a good time and still make my goals.

Philip Pape: 50:21

Yeah, I love. I love that too, because the longer it is and the more you stretch it out, the more resilience you have against all of those things happening. Because life throws unexpected things along the way, including injuries, including sickness, including something with your kid or your wife or whatever. And to be able to, if you're going at a conservative rate, interrupting that has a much less impact as well. Right, because not dieting for a few days when you're already at a very low, a very conservative deficit, isn't a big deal, but if it's a four or six-week mini cut, all of a sudden one day makes a big difference.

Jeff Alberts: 50:57

Another thing to think about. Let's say you have to do a long-term dieting phase. It doesn't mean you have to be downhill the whole way through no-transcript or less, like how you do things when you're not dieting.

Philip Pape: 51:33

Right, just scaled a little bit.

Jeff Alberts: 51:34

Yeah, exactly. So that's again. It's going back to practicality and sustainability. So sometimes we got to think about okay, how's this going to impact me? When it's all said and done?

Philip Pape: 51:51

And I don't think that far ahead. Yeah, I'm all for that, that flexibility. I inadvertently went into what I I did a podcast about it a while back called my stair step fat loss approach and it was just literally because of what happened to my shoulder and needing to recover several times over the last few months, I got out of my dieting phase. I'm like you know what. This is much better to just go three weeks on one week off. Three weeks on one week, kind of like a stair, you know staircase, and that relief from that week or two of maintenance can be huge.

Jeff Alberts: 52:11

Made a big difference.

Philip Pape: 52:12

yeah, the dieting almost doesn't feel like dieting. It's almost this huge sustainable thing, cool man, all right, so, in the interest of time, I just wanted to ask you if there's anything we didn't cover or a question you wish I had asked from here, and what your answer would be.

Jeff Alberts: 52:23

No, I thought you did great. I recovered a lot.

Philip Pape: 52:27

I'm good. I thought you did great too, man, it was fun Now.

Jeff Alberts: 52:30

I'm like man. I need to learn more about flying now.

Philip Pape: 52:33

I could hook you up with some people that know a lot more than I do, but yeah, it was fun. I stopped when it became the gas became too expensive and I had kids. I was like I can see that I do know some pilots being having worked aerospace industry. So anyway, man, where do you want people to learn about you? Jeff, reach out to you 3dmj underscore.

Jeff Alberts: 52:52

Godfather, go to youtube in 3d muscle journey cool.

Philip Pape: 52:56

I'll put those in the show notes and Jeff's super responsive and, uh, really good content online as well. You wouldn't believe he's he's, whatever age he is. I'm not even going to say a number because you know it doesn't matter, does it?

Jeff Alberts: 53:07

43 plus 10. There you go.

Philip Pape: 53:10

Yeah, all right, man, it's great to have you on. I really appreciate you coming on the show.

Jeff Alberts: 53:14

All right, thanks again.

7 Sleep Quality Metrics You NEED to Track for Faster Gains and Fat Loss (Root Cause Analysis) | Ep 243

Your wearable says you got 8 hours of sleep, but you're still waking up exhausted. Your sleep efficiency looks good, but your energy levels tell a different story.

Learn the 7 key sleep metrics that actually matter for muscle gains and fat loss, plus how to use Root Cause Analysis, an engineering method that reveals the true sources of poor sleep quality hiding beneath your data.

Whether you're dealing with low energy, poor recovery, or sleep numbers that don't match how you feel, this episode gives you a systematic approach to optimize your sleep for better results in the gym.

A special thank you to Aubrey from Wits & Weights Physique University who inspired this episode with her questions about sleep quality metrics!

Main Takeaways:

• The 7 essential sleep metrics and their target ranges for optimal recovery

• A simple but powerful technique to uncover your hidden sleep disruptors

• Why going to the gym at THIS time of day might be your secret weapon for better sleep

• How to test solutions for better sleep based on your personal metrics

The Truth About Sleep Quality Metrics: What Actually Matters for Building Muscle and Losing Fat

Sleep tracking has become increasingly popular among fitness enthusiasts. But with dozens of metrics available on modern wearables, which ones actually impact your gains? Let's cut through the noise and focus on what matters.

The Problem with Traditional Sleep Tracking

Most people focus solely on total sleep time or a generic "sleep score." While getting enough hours is important, it's just the baseline. Your wearable might show 8 hours of sleep, but if you're still waking up exhausted, something's off.

7 Sleep Metrics That Actually Matter

1. Total Sleep Time (7-9 hours)

Don't obsess over hitting exactly 8 hours. Some people thrive on 6.5, while others need 9. The key is consistency and watching how your body responds.

2. Sleep Efficiency (Target: 85%+)

Think of this like your workout efficiency. Are you actually sleeping during your time in bed, or just lying there scrolling through Instagram?

3. Sleep Latency (Target: Under 20 minutes)

This measures how long it takes to fall asleep. If you're consistently taking longer, it's your first clue something's disrupting your sleep system.

4. Wake After Sleep Onset (WASO) (Target: Under 20 minutes)

This reveals hidden stressors keeping you awake throughout the night. High WASO often means compromised recovery.

5. Deep Sleep Duration (Target: 15-20% of total sleep)

This is where the magic happens for muscle recovery. Miss this target, and your gains could suffer.

6. REM Sleep Duration (Target: 20-25% of total sleep)

Critical for mental recovery and decision-making. Low REM sleep might explain those diet-breaking cravings.

7. Sleep Consistency (Target: 30-minute window)

The most underrated metric. Your body craves routine, just like with training and nutrition.

Using Root Cause Analysis to Fix Sleep Issues

Having the numbers is one thing. Knowing what to do with them is another. Here's how to systematically improve your sleep:

Step 1: Identify the Problem Metric

Don't just say "I sleep badly." Pick a specific metric that's off target.

Step 2: Ask "Why" Five Times

Example:

• Why is my sleep efficiency low? Because I'm awake too much.

• Why am I awake? Because I keep waking up.

• Why do I keep waking up? Because my mind races.

• Why does my mind race? Because of work deadlines.

• Why do deadlines bother me? Because I'm not setting boundaries.

Step 3: Create Solutions

Often, the fix has nothing to do with sleep itself. One of my clients improved their deep sleep simply by moving workouts from evening to morning.

Making It Work for You

The key isn't collecting data for its own sake. It's about using that data to make informed decisions about your training, recovery, and lifestyle. Start by tracking these seven metrics, then use Root Cause Analysis to systematically address any issues.

Remember: Good sleep isn't about following generic advice or trying random "hacks." It's about understanding your personal sleep patterns and optimizing them for maximum gains.

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Transcript

Philip Pape: 0:01

Let's say you just got seven or eight hours of sleep, but you're waking up exhausted, or the numbers on your wearable just don't make sense. Your sleep efficiency looks good, but your energy levels tell a different story. And maybe you're tracking a bunch of metrics, maybe you're not and you're following all the standard advice and the hacks blue light, caffeine, no screen time but something still isn't working with your sleep. Today we're going to get into this what sleep metrics actually matter, what they mean for your recovery and performance, and how to use an engineering approach to identify and fix the real issues disrupting your sleep. Welcome to Wits and Weights, the show that blends evidence and engineering to help you build smart, efficient systems to achieve your dream physique. I'm your host, philip Pape.

Philip Pape: 0:55

Today we're talking about sleep quality. Measuring sleep quality is not as simple as just looking at the total hours or a single score on, say, your Oura ring or your Fitbit or other wearable. When these numbers don't match how we feel, that is when we need a different way, a systematic way to decode what's really happening during those hours in bed. And that's exactly what we're covering in today's episode First, the key metrics that actually matter for measuring sleep quality and then how to use root cause analysis to fix any issues we uncover. Now I want to give a shout out to Aubrey, who is in our group coaching program. She gave us the idea for this topic. I think it is a very critical topic because we all have wearables many of us do and we track all these metrics and it can be confusing and we're like, hey, I'm getting this much deep sleep. What does that mean? What should I be aiming for and how do I link it to how I feel so that I can perform better? And for those of us who want to be lifting and building muscle, we want to be recovered. That can be even more critical. Now, before we dive into this, if you enjoy this show, if you want more content that brings this engineering, this systematic mindset, this data-based way of thinking that allows you to really unlock what's going on with your body, hit the follow button just so you get notified of the next episode, and it will help others find the show as well and ensures that you just won't miss another episode like this.

Philip Pape: 2:21

All right, let's talk about what we are measuring when it comes to sleep quality. You've probably seen dozens of metrics on your wearable device. They're all a little bit different, they all have different levels of accuracy, and what I want to do today is just distill it down to the seven metrics that matter most, and I'm going to give you a target for them. So this is a very prescriptive episode. The first metric is total sleep time. Now, this is the baseline.

Philip Pape: 2:49

This is where you want to get that seven to nine hours of sleep and the thing is, this number doesn't really mean anything without context, and what I mean is you could get consistently six and a half hours of sleep but be pretty refreshed, or you could be getting a very a half hours of sleep but be pretty refreshed, or you could be getting a very restless eight hours of sleep. However, if you are getting far fewer than this range so if you're getting six or less on a regular basis then that could be a problem regardless. In other words, forget about the rest of the metrics until you fix that, even though those other metrics can help. You really have the low-hanging fruit to go after here, which is hours per sleep. I mean hours, excuse me, hours per night. Now, I know many of us. It's very difficult to achieve eight or nine hours, unless your schedule allows for it, or you're retired or some situation like that. But everyone has kind of that sweet spot where they know that it's just too restricted in their sleep and others, you know, six and a half, seven hours, maybe more than enough. It always helps to experiment with more. So anyway, let's start. There's the baseline getting enough sleep. I think you knew that, but it's one of the seven metrics, all right, metrics.

Philip Pape: 3:58

Metric number two is sleep efficiency. This is the percentage of time in bed that you actually sleep. And so think about, from the moment you lay down, put your head on the pillow assuming you're done, you know, doing something active, like reading a book, something like that and then up until the time you wake up and get out of bed. We want 85% of that time to be actually sleeping right. Think of this, like your, you know your workout efficiency right. Are you spending your gym time training or are you scrolling on your phone? So I'm a big fan of efficiency and I think you are. So are you actually sleeping? And that is gonna be another indicator of are you actually making the most of the time in bed? Are you setting yourself up for success ahead of time outside the bedroom, before you get in to give you that high level of efficiency? All right.

Philip Pape: 4:47

Metric number three is sleep latency. This is how long it takes to fall asleep, and ideally this is under 20 minutes, under 20 minutes. Now, I know personally it takes me about five, 10 minutes to fall asleep. Whether that's good or not for an individual, it depends, obviously, if you're just crashing because you're so exhausted day after day, that's a different thing. But conversely, if you have insomnia or you're being kept awake for whatever reason, that is your first clue that something might be off with your sleep system. All right, sleep latency under 20 minutes.

Philip Pape: 5:21

The fourth metric is wake after sleep onset or WASO. I don't know if people pronounce that, but wake after sleep onset is the total time that you spend awake after you initially fall asleep. Let me repeat that again it's the time, it's the awake time throughout the night after you've initially fallen asleep. And if you have like an aura ring or another wearable that shows you a little graph throughout the night with the different types of sleep and you'll see at the very top usually is higher number than that reveals that you have something stressing you out that keeps waking you up. You know, as long as it's not your spouse kicking you and waking you up and it's internal to you. That's what it reveals.

Philip Pape: 6:15

All right, let's continue with the fifth metric, which is deep sleep duration. Now, this is where the magic happens for recovery physical recovery, cognitive recovery or no, pardon me, that's physical recovery. The next one is cognitive, physical recovery. That's deep sleep, which you know, for those of us lifting, where we have lots of stress on our muscular system during the day, we really want that and we want to target 15 to 20% of total sleep time. So you notice a pattern here 20, 20, 20. It's kind of a good number to remember. We want at least 15 to 20%.

Philip Pape: 6:52

Sometimes, when you look at deep sleep on your graph and you see, oh, I slept eight hours and and an hour and a half or two hours was deep sleep, you might think, oh, that doesn't seem very much. Is that okay? Yeah, it's okay, it's totally normal to be. If you're at least 15%, it's probably okay. If you're not hitting that number, then your training recovery is gonna be compromised. And that's where, like with my clients when they submit their biofeedback to me, and their recovery and soreness is higher than it should be given, than it should be given all the other variables, given their food and everything else.

Philip Pape: 7:22

We look at sleep quality and even if they're getting enough sleep, there could be a sleep quality issue preventing deep sleep. The sixth metric, number six, is REM sleep duration. Now this is for mental recovery and again, here's a little bit higher. We want to aim for 20 to 25%, but again, the magic number 20 is a nice theme here, right? Deep sleep is 15 to 20. Rem sleep is 20 to 25% of your total sleep time. So REM should be a little bit longer than deep sleep. And this directly impacts your focus in your decision-making, which again translates to everything you do, including your training. But also you know how emotionally susceptible you might be to decision fatigue, with your diet, for example. So if you're worried about cravings and over-consuming food, oftentimes a lack of sleep and low sleep quality is what leads to these higher cravings, a very well-established link in the literature.

Philip Pape: 8:21

And then the final metric and you're probably thinking is Philip going to mention this as a metric is sleep consistency, and I think this is the most important in a way, assuming you have your bases covered, like the hours of sleep, I think consistency, the variation in your sleep and wake times or the lack thereof, right, the very low variation where you are going to bed and waking up within about the same 30 minute window every single day, including weekends. This might be the most underrated metric of all, and you can extrapolate that idea to anything you're doing related to your body. It has to do with our rhythms, circadian rhythms, ultradian rhythms, the idea that the body relaxes and responds very well homeostatically and metabolically to consistency consistent eating patterns and eating windows, consistent amounts of food, consistent training, consistent moving and, of course, consistent sleep. All right Now. And, of course, consistent sleep, all right Now. This is where most sleep advice stops right, like you've got your numbers, you know your targets, but then what do you actually do when they're not where they should be? And I think with wearables, that's the trap that we get into. I have an aura ring and I love looking at the data, but then it's like what do you do with it? Same thing with our training, with our nutrition. It's great to track. I highly encourage tracking, but oftentimes people say, well, I tracked my calories and I didn't lose weight. Well, tracking doesn't do that for you. Tracking just gives you the information to be informed from which you can make decisions and for sleep.

Philip Pape: 9:55

This is where root cause analysis comes in, which is the engineering framework I am linking with in this episode. So root cause analysis kind of what it sounds like, right, it's a method engineers use to dig beneath the surface level symptoms and find the true, the root source, the root cause of the problem. Right, not just the surface thing that you put a bandaid on, but the actual root cause. It's kind of like when we have pain in our joints and you think that it's because you're doing a specific lift, but in reality it's some other lifestyle modification or movement pattern you're doing that's leading down the chain to that problem. Okay, so let's apply root cause analysis to your sleep quality.

Philip Pape: 10:41

So step one is finding your specific problem using the metrics that we just discussed, the seven metrics. Don't just say, oh, I sleep badly or I have poor sleep. We need to identify exactly which ones are off target. Maybe your sleep efficiency is low, maybe your deep sleep percentage is below 15%, it's, you know, 10% or very low. So that's step one, of course, is just identifying the information and which ones are an issue. Step two is using what engineers call the five wise technique, and I think I did an episode specifically on this in the past, but it's a very common framework I use with myself and with clients all the time, and you can use it any day, for any issue, and it's super effective.

Philip Pape: 11:21

Okay, and here's how it goes. Let's say that your sleep efficiency is only 75%, right, instead of 80. What's the target for that? 85%? I'm going crazy here. So let's say it's only 75%. So you would ask yourself a why? Question. Why is my sleep efficiency low? Because I'm spending too much time awake in bed. Why is my sleep efficiency low Because I'm spending too much time awake in bed? Why am I awake so much? Because I keep waking up through the night. Why do I keep waking up? Because my mind starts racing when I do. Why does my mind race? Because I'm worried about work deadlines. Why am I worried about deadlines? Because I'm not setting clear boundaries with my time, and so you can keep asking why it doesn't have to just be five, you can go three or you can go eight, whatever gets you to the root cause. And notice what happened there. We started with a sleep metric. Right, our sleep efficiency is low. Okay, that's not the problem. The problem is a lifestyle factor that we need to address, related to setting boundaries with your time, better time management, whatever it is, and with fitness and nutrition. We often find that's the case Like it has nothing to do with the fitness and nutrition. I mean almost never.

Philip Pape: 12:32

I just talked to a new client yesterday. We did our onboarding call and immediately two or three of these types of problems or challenges came up, such as, you know, skipping workouts, and so I asked why, well, sometimes I run out of time. Well, why? Well, I try to go in the afternoon and then work gets late. Why, why, why. And so it came down to why don't we just work out of the morning, right? Or why don't we work out three days instead of four? You know, you can get down to the real thing so that you no longer have the excuse, and it might reveal connections that you might never have considered right.

Philip Pape: 13:07

Another one she came up with was meal planning. She says I don't have time for meal prep. I said why, well, meal prep takes like four hours. Well, why? Well, I'm trying to make all these fancy recipes and, you know, prepackage them. Oh, okay, so then we can get to the root cause of hey, how about you just get a family package of chicken breasts and a giant thing of green beans and cook them in like half an hour on a Sunday, and then you have your lunch for the whole week. By the way, do you like eating the same thing every day? Oh yeah, no problem. Great, perfect solution for you, right? Okay?

Philip Pape: 13:37

So that's step two is doing the five why technique to get at the root cause. And so that's step two is doing the 5-Y technique to get at the root cause. And then step three is creating the solution tree. So you're going to map out the connections from your root cause, because it could be multiple, all right, so it could be multiple. So you're doing your 5-Y and then you're doing it a few more times and then you can identify the easiest place to make a change, right?

Philip Pape: 14:03

So in the example I gave you, setting better work boundaries might have a bigger impact on sleep than taking another supplement, right? Like I just need melatonin, or buying a better mattress or wearing a sleep mask. Like there's, you know, uh, different connections where you can make changes, and some changes for you will be more low hanging fruit than others, and then it could be something else for someone else. And then the last step, of course, is test it out and verify that the change actually helps. If you make one change at a time and then you track guess what? The exact same metrics we just talked about, which you're already tracking, you'll see the difference. You'll see the difference and I can give you a couple simple examples for me. Right, if I drink alcohol, I know my HRV is going to be off, my resting heart rate is going to be high, my resilience score goes down and I don't feel as well rested. It all links together. It all links together. If I don't wear a sleep mask, sometimes my sleep quality is lower because of all the blue light leaking in from, like our night lights and other lights in the house. And you just start to make these connections.

Philip Pape: 15:04

Now here's something fascinating that I've noticed working with clients the solution to poor sleep often has nothing to do with sleep itself. Right, I think I've kind of alluded to this a couple of times with my other examples I had. I had a client whose sleep percentage was really low, like consistently low, and we just did this simple why technique, the five whys, and we discovered, okay, he's training close, too close to bedtime. I had just assumed he was training around four because he had been training in the afternoon, but it was actually getting closer and closer to bedtime and then his core temperature was going up. His cortisol was, you know, getting thrown off. And again, this is not a cortisol is a root of all problems, issue whatsoever. Cortisol is just a downstream indicator of stuff. Um, and so again, guess what? We moved his workouts to the mornings. It instantly improved his sleep metrics.

Philip Pape: 15:49

By the way, that is one of my favorite hacks to train in the morning. Don't tell me that you're not a morning person. Think about it and and see if it. Try it out. That's what I would say. Try it out because it has so many benefits. It allows you to manage your time because you get it out of the way. Now your time is yours for the rest of the day. It's gives you a big energy boost in the morning. It actually helps with your stress and your cortisol throughout the day by taking care of that active, pent up energy in the morning. Um, you sleep better when you train early in the day, and then it's often easier to manage your diet because now you've already accounted for the training window and now the rest of the day kind of falls in line. It's predictable, right. So there's a lot of benefits.

Philip Pape: 16:27

Okay, that was a side of a side thing, but I think it is one important way to potentially improve sleep for a lot of people. So you probably know that I love combining these precise measurements with systematic problem solving. The numbers tell us what's happening, but the engineering approach shows us why, and then that is where the solutions emerge. All right. So measuring sleep quality, it's not just collecting data for its own sake. Right, we want to use the data in an intelligent way to improve your recovery, your performance, your health, your cravings, your fat loss, your muscle building, all of that fun stuff. And if you combine those any metrics, really, you can apply this to your food tracking, to your biofeedback, to your lifting progress. You combine it with simple root cause analysis, like we talked about here.

Philip Pape: 17:13

I literally gave you the whole framework, the five why technique. It's not that hard. You can, number one, know exactly which aspects of the thing in this case sleep need attention. Number two, you could identify the true source of any issues. And then, number three, make targeted changes and at the end of the day, you are in control. It is fully under your control to improve your sleep, and it's not just following like the list of hacks. Here's 10 hacks to improve your sleep. It's not that. It's understanding your personal sleep patterns and then systematically optimizing them.

Philip Pape: 17:42

All right again, if you enjoyed today's episode, if you want more of this type of content, please hit the follow button. Support me by doing that. That would be amazing. I get to see how many followers we have and then it helps others find the show. It helps with the algorithm and you can reach more people who can benefit from these things and also share this episode with anybody you feel is struggling with sleep. Save, bookmark, add it to a playlist, whatever, so that you get it in the future, because I think the information here is among the most valuable that I've ever shared when it comes to sleep and will help you tremendously in one of the things that will unlock tons of recovery and gains in the gym and success with your diet. All right until next time, keep using those wits, lifting some weights and remember, sometimes the best solution is hiding in your own data just waiting to be discovered. I'll talk to you next time here on the Wits and Weights Podcast.

You Can Build Muscle FASTER Than We Thought (Without More Fat Gain) | Ep 242

Can you build muscle faster than we thought... WITHOUT gaining more fat as you bulk? What if the current advice to on rate of gain is actually holding you back?

Philip (@witsandweights) shares groundbreaking research that shows you can gain muscle faster than you thought - without getting bogged down by excess fat. He breaks down the latest science into simple, actionable tips for beginners, intermediates, and advanced lifters. Whether you're just starting or a seasoned lifter aiming to push past your current limits, Philip shares practical tips on tailoring your muscle-building pace based on your experience level. Tune in for a fresh perspective on building the body you want!

📲 For the exact steps to set up your next bulking phase for substantial muscle gains, download my free Muscle-Building Nutrition Blueprint (updated for 2025)  or go to witsandweights.com/free.

Today, you’ll learn all about:

1:11 Traditional bulking advice and why it’s outdated
2:06 Philip’s muscle-building program update
3:49 Why are recommendations changing?
5:41 Gain faster now
10:41 For optimal muscle gain
14:29 Tone up smart and assess your training experience
18:30 Determining your training level and rate of gain
20:23 Consistent progression and monitoring results
21:39 Importance of quality nutrition
23:37 Nutrient partitioning abilities

Episode resources:

• FREE Muscle-Building Nutrition Blueprint (over 25 pages!)

• Greg Nuckols Article – How Fast Should You Gain Weight When Bulking?

• Try MacroFactor free with code WITSANDWEIGHTS – Apple/iPhone or Google/Android

Related episode:

• The Hardgainers Guide to Outsmarting Your Metabolism and Maximizing Muscle Gain

New Science Shows You Can Build Muscle Faster (Without Getting Fat)

For years, I've told clients to gain around 0.2-0.3% of body weight per week when building muscle. This wasn't just my recommendation – it was the standard evidence-based advice for minimizing fat gain during a bulk. But science evolves, and new research has completely changed our understanding of optimal rates of muscle gain.

The Evolution of Muscle-Building Science

Recent studies show we can gain muscle faster than previously thought, with less fat accumulation than we feared. This is game-changing news for anyone trying to build their ideal physique, whether you're just starting or you've been lifting for years.

Why the Old Recommendations Were Too Conservative

The previous guidelines were based on limited research – just two key studies. Now, with five well-designed studies examining different rates of weight gain, we have a much clearer picture of how the body responds to various bulking approaches.

The New Science of Muscle Gain

Here's what the latest research reveals about optimal rates of muscle gain:

• Beginners: Can gain up to 0.5-0.8% body weight per week with minimal fat gain

• Intermediates: Can effectively gain 0.3-0.5% body weight per week

• Advanced: Should stay in the range of 0.15-0.35% body weight per week

Three Major Insights About Building Muscle

1. Training Experience Matters More Than We Thought

Your training status significantly influences how aggressively you can bulk:

• Beginners have incredible muscle-building potential

• Intermediates can handle more aggressive gains than previously believed

• Advanced lifters still need more precise approaches

2. The Sweet Spot is Higher Than Previously Believed

The body is more capable of using extra nutrients for muscle growth than we realized, especially early in your training career. This means you can push the rate of gain higher without excessive fat accumulation.

3. Better Muscle-to-Fat Ratio Than Expected

At moderate rates of gain, about 70-75% of weight gained can be lean mass. Even with faster gains, fat accumulation isn't as dramatic as once feared. This completely changes the old belief that "gaining too fast means it's all fat."

How to Implement the New Recommendations

Assess Your Training Level

1. Beginner: Still adding weight to lifts almost every session

2. Intermediate: Making consistent but slower progress

3. Advanced: Progress comes in small increments over time

Calculate Your Target Rate

Use these guidelines based on your experience level:

• Beginners: Start at 0.5% body weight/week

• Intermediates: Aim for 0.3-0.4% body weight/week

• Advanced: Target 0.15-0.35% body weight/week

Monitor These Key Metrics

• Daily weight (use weekly averages)

• Training performance

• Body measurements

• Progress photos

• Energy and recovery markers

The Bottom Line

Being too conservative with your rate of gain might actually be holding back your muscle growth. While you still need to train hard and eat properly, don't be afraid to push the envelope a bit more than previously recommended. Your body is smarter at nutrient partitioning than we once believed – especially when you provide the right training stimulus.

Want to implement these new recommendations? Download my completely revised Muscle Building Nutrition Blueprint.

📲 Send me a text message!

👩‍💻 Book a FREE 15-Minute Rapid Nutrition Assessment

🎓 Join Wits & Weights Physique University

👥 Join our Facebook community for live Q&As & support

✉️ Join the FREE email list with insider strategies and bonus content!

📱 Try MacroFactor for free with code WITSANDWEIGHTS. The only food logging app that adjusts to your metabolism!

🏋️‍♀️ Download Boostcamp for free and access 70+ evidence-based workout programs

🩷 Love the podcast? Leave a 5-star review or share on social and tag @witsandweights

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Transcript

Philip Pape: 0:01

If you've been following the standard advice of gaining weight slowly and methodically to build muscle, including advice that I've given on this show, you might be too conservative. New research has changed our understanding of how quickly you can gain muscle while keeping fat gain minimized, and I mean quite completely changed, because what we thought was optimal might actually be cutting your gains in half. Today, I'm breaking down the latest science that's forcing us to rethink what we knew about the rate of building muscle and why. This is actually great news for anyone trying to pack on size. Whether you're a beginner who can gain faster than ever, or an experienced lifter who needs to find your sweet spot to avoid constant bulking and cutting cycles, this episode is going to help you hone in on the most efficient physique building approach. Welcome to Wits and Weights, the show that blends evidence and engineering to help you build smart, efficient systems to achieve your dream physique.

Philip Pape: 1:03

I'm your host, Philip Pape, and today we're exploring something that challenges what many of us, including myself, have been teaching for years about building muscle. You're probably tracking your calories, your macros. You're aiming to get just the right rate of gain, probably around a quarter pound per week, maybe a little more, something like two to three pounds per month, because that's what everyone says is optimal. I've even said before 0.2 to 0.3% of your body weight a week is optimal and, yes, you're going to make progress. However, you do it when you're in a surplus, but it might be slower than you want. And now you notice others making gains faster. Maybe you feel like you're shortchanging yourself because it doesn't seem like you're putting it all out there. And the new research that we've seen over the last few years suggests exactly that that we can gain muscle faster than previously thought, with less concern about fat gain than we once believed, and this changes pretty much everything we knew about building muscle and how fast and how large our surplus should be. Now, speaking of changing everything, I've revised my free muscle building nutrition blueprint to reflect the new findings, the new rates of gain, and I separate it by aggressiveness depending on how comfortable you are gaining weight and gaining some fat along for the ride as you build that muscle. And if you want your free copy of my muscle building nutrition blueprint, just use the link in my show notes or go to witsandweightscom slash free and it's updated and it's a very detailed guide with not only the rate of gain, but it walks you step by step through the process of building muscle. It gives you an example of how I applied this to a past bulk, which, of course, if I did it again, I might actually go aggressively. And just so you know, I'm recording this as I've recently started a new bulk, which I will be reporting out on, probably in a few months, only because I want to see how well my new program goes as well. I'm running a 19 week program that has a base phase and then a peaking phase to push up my main lifts, which I haven't done in a while, and I'm combining that with the bulk and I'm going at what I would call a moderately aggressive rate based on what I'm going to share today.

Philip Pape: 3:14

So let me break this down into three parts. First, we're going to look at why the recommendations are changing based on new research. I've said in the past you should never be locked into a specific finding, whether it's from one study or 10 studies, because there could always be new information that enlightens us as to more precise, accurate approach, and that is exactly the case here. Then, in the second segment, I'm going to explain exactly what this means for you and your muscle building goals. And then, finally, I'm going to show you how to put this into practice based on your experience level, your level of training advancement. So let's talk about how our understanding has evolved, because this is super important.

Philip Pape: 3:53

Why are my recommendations changing? Why are the recommendations in the industry changing? And some very well-respected individuals out there, like the guys at Stronger by Science, for example and if you've listened to me for any length of time, you've heard me tell you, as a listener and clients, to gain around 0.2 to 0.3% of your body weight per week when trying to build muscle. And this wasn't just my recommendation, it was the standard advice based on the best available evidence at the time, including some meta-analysis, one by Dr Herrick Helms et al. I've had people on the show talk about that and it was in all of my guidance, even to clients as well, because it's the best thing we knew and everyone's worried about gaining too much fat, so we don't want to push it too aggressively and do the old dreamer bulk right. Just the seafood diet, see it and eat it. But you know, science evolves and sometimes it evolves dramatically and sometimes it catches up to some of the kernels of truth that we know about from the bro science, from the guys who've truly packed on some muscle and I'll be honest, you know I have a long way to go.

Philip Pape: 4:56

I've been doing this seriously now for four or five years but I want to say, like, from the nutrition side, probably about three years, and I've learned a lot personally. I've helped hundreds of clients and listeners go through this process and doing it successfully, and yet still we can learn and do it better. So we've gone from having just two key studies on this topic. This is the pitfall of relying on science too much is when we don't have quite enough information out there compared to the decades and hundreds and thousands of anecdotes which in some way count as their own evidence. So we've gone from having two studies to now having five well-designed studies.

Philip Pape: 5:34

Look at how different rates of weight gain affect muscle growth and fat gain, and the results are changing what we thought we knew. And I want to give credit where it's due because this was recently detailed in an excellent article by Greg Knuckles at Macrofactor. You know how much I love those guys. He was on the show in the past and he's just a phenomenal writer, but he's really good at distilling a lot of this complex information into an article that's still detailed enough to give you all the key points and graphs and comparisons. And their team. They analyzed these five studies and it kind of opened my eyes about how we need to update our approach as well, and that's why I'm doing this episode and so I've linked to that article in the show notes and you can check that out firsthand and see where it all comes from.

Philip Pape: 6:18

But to get into specifics, a recent study published in the Journal of Functional Morphology and Kinesiology found something pretty remarkable because in relatively untrained lifters which is a good place to start because they can change fairly quickly gaining up to about a pound or a half percent of body weight per week led to large increases in fat-free mass, with minimal to no increase in fat mass. And if we think about how our body is composed, when we talk about body composition, there is muscle mass and there is everything else which includes fat, but not just fat. And the way they typically measure these is just creating a binary buckets, you know, fat-free mass and fat mass, which is pretty helpful in our context because a lot of us really care about are we gaining too much fat when we gain muscle? But we also want to see that we're gaining the muscle and what the ratio is. So one pound a week is significantly faster than what we previously thought, even for newer lifters. I mean, I'll say it's on the cusp and you're going to find out. You're going to see here that the recommendations for intermediate and advanced lifters are actually a lot more aggressive than we thought as well. So where it gets interesting for those people, for experienced lifters and by experienced I mean you've been training hard for at least six to nine months Now you've moved into late novice, early intermediate and your propensity to gain muscle is just a little bit less than where it was at the beginning or anything more advanced than that.

Philip Pape: 7:46

The research shows that faster rates of weight gain might help increase muscle growth even a bit more, but too much, and you're still going to primarily just increase fat gain. So that's where there's consistency with the previous literature to an extent, but the numbers have just shifted to be more aggressive. So, for example, in a very advanced lifter, when gaining about 0.4% of their body mass a week, about 60 to 65% of the weight gained was fat-free mass, so that's almost two-thirds not as fat, which is more than I thought would happen. I used to say it was around 50-50, right, and any more than that. It just gets worse. But now we're saying it's two-thirds muscle or two-thirds fat-free mass to one-third fat.

Philip Pape: 8:32

Okay, in an advanced trainee at 0.4% a week, which, just so you know, is right about the rate I'm going at right now. I used to hit it at around 0.25, 0.3, and now I'm going at 0.4. I consider myself an intermediate lifter and I'm going more aggressive Pretty cool, right, and I know that that could. Then it gives me a lot of excitement because, first of all, I get to eat a lot more food, which is awesome, In fact, almost to the point where it could be uncomfortable, because I do still eat a lot of whole foods and fiber and sometimes I feel too full whole foods and fiber and sometimes I feel too full. So there's that hard gaining piece. I did a whole episode about that in the past and I'm going to link to that in the show notes as well.

Philip Pape: 9:11

Anyhow, if we take that rate of gain 0.4%, let's say we slow that down to more like 0.16, I think was the exact number. The amount of fat-free mass that these advanced lifters gained as a percentage of the total weight gained was 85%, so a vast majority of it being muscle. When they're going at 0.15% Now, 0.15% is roughly on the low end of whatI used to recommend anyway, like the lowest of the low end Kind of makes sense. So what this means is simple We've been too conservative with our recommendations, especially for beginners and intermediates and that's probably the vast majority of people listening to be honest Because once you're advanced, you kind of have things dialed in and understand how your body responds anyway, and it's going to take longer between. It's going to take longer to do everything you know to gain muscle mass, to gain strength, and so it makes sense that your rate of gain would slow down. So all of this is excellent news because it means that you might be able to build muscle faster than you thought, without packing on unnecessary fat. So now you understand why recommendations have changed. And again, go check out the article. You can check out the research study that I just mentioned specifically, but it's mentioned in the article, so I would rely on that and their citations to see all of the studies that are being drawn upon. And now I want to use this research to tell us what it means about building muscle, and this is where it gets really interesting. So this research has revealed three insights that I want to talk about, Three major insights about building muscle.

Philip Pape: 10:40

First, your training experience matters potentially even more than we realized. Beginners have an incredible capacity for muscle growth. They can gain up to 0.8% body weight per week with minimal fat gain. Like those are fat loss numbers. In other words, like that's the rate of body weight loss I would be recommending for fat gain. Usually, when we talk about muscle gain, we talk about a fraction of that, like a half or a quarter of that, and what we're saying is no, you can actually crank it up to like 0.8% and even potentially 1% of your body weight per week if you're total new and you're willing to gain a little extra fat for the chance of building a lot more muscle.

Philip Pape: 11:24

And then we have intermediate lifters and they're not far behind now. They have the ability to gain, say, 0.3 to 0.5% per week effectively and still gain a ton of that as muscle mass. We're talking a half a percent a week. So if you gain let's say you're an average, slightly bigger guy and you're 200 pounds, just for easy numbers that's a pound a week. Right, that's a pound a week. So that's like a little over four pounds a month, which means in six months you'd be gaining like 25 pounds.

Philip Pape: 11:50

Okay, and 25 pounds amounts to what does that come out to be? Over what 12.5% increase? And I used to recommend anywhere from seven to 10%, and this is suggesting we can go up to like well, 12.5% over a six month period. You can bulk for less, you can bulk for longer, and that's going to change the total weight gained, but the percentage of that gained as muscle mass should still be pretty high, All right. And then we have advanced lifters who still need even more precision and they should stay in the range of anywhere from 0.15 to 0.35% body weight per week.

Philip Pape: 12:23

And I realize I'm throwing a lot of numbers at you. If you go to the Macrofactor article, you'll see tables that give you ranges and I wouldn't worry too much about it. If you use Macrofactor the app itself, it's actually designed around percentage gain per week. Use my code, WITSANDWEIGHTS, try it for free for a couple of weeks and I'm sure you'll be hooked and you'll want to use it forever. Again, link in the show notes.

Philip Pape: 12:45

It sounds like I'm promoting a bunch of stuff here, but it's all connected, so beginners can go up to a percent or maybe 0.8%, intermediates up to half a percent and advanced maybe 0.35%. That's the first major insight from this research. But there's more to understand about how this changes our approach, because second is that we've discovered the sweet spot, for muscle growth is also higher than we previously thought kind of that optimal number and the research shows that your body's more capable of using the extra nutrients for muscle growth, especially earlier in your training career and we used to think a little bit slower. More of a lean gain was always better and we know that's not true now, which is great. It's liberating. It means you have a lot more flex pun intended to eat more and gain more muscle without being as worried about gaining a ton of fat.

Jenny: 13:35

Hi, my name is Jenny and I just wanted to say a big thank you to Philip Pape of Wits and Weights for offering his free 50-minute nutritional assessment. During that time he gave me really good tools on how I can further my health and fitness goals. He asked really great questions and stayed true to his offer of no sales pitch. I have since applied these things and gotten really close to my health goals and my weight goals, and now I'm able to flip over and work on my strength and my muscle conditioning using a lot of the things he offers in his podcasts, and I just am very grateful for his positive inspiration and encouragement, for all of our help. Thank you, philip.

Philip Pape: 14:21

And then third, and this might be the most exciting finding that the ratio of muscle to fat gain is much better than we feared. I alluded to that earlier. If you gain at one of these moderate rates which is now, is more aggressive than we thought up to three quarters of the weight gained can be lean mass. Now, a little bit of that might be some fluid mass, glycogen going on, but still that's a huge ratio of muscle. I've seen this. You know there's a sanity check. A sniff test on this is with my clients. We track a bunch of metrics. We track body measurements. I do some Navy formula based body fat percentage measurements and I also calculate how much lean mass versus fat you've gained or lost during a muscle building phase. And for my clients who have gone at a more conservative rate, like we used to recommend, it was often well over two thirds lean mass and I always thought, wow, this must just be because they're so new at it. Because many of my clients they've been training, but they haven't maybe been training effectively. So we get them training for strength using the right type of periodization, using the right stimulus, with volume and intensity, and they just get cranky. Their lifts go up, they start building a ton of muscle. So it makes sense. But now I'm thinking, oh, is it actually because we just can go more aggressively and still gain a bunch of muscle and it not be very much fat and let's not worry as much about the scale going up? We actually want that to happen. We want to be well over that threshold and now this liberates us to really push it and not worry. That's what I think is pretty cool. So even when we push the rate of gain higher, fat accumulation isn't nearly as dramatic as we once thought, and this completely changes the old belief that you know, if you gain too fast, it's all fat. Having said that, there is a rate of gain that some people would be going way too aggressively. You know, like one and a half, two percent a week is probably then at the point where you're just going to gain a bunch of fat, and that's like the dreamer book, right. But the evidence doesn't support the fear of too much fat gain in a fairly wide range now. So we've covered why the old recommendations were too conservative, what the new science shows Now, how do you actually apply this to your own training and nutrition?

Philip Pape: 16:33

And it's pretty simple how do we take this and turn it into your results? I think it starts with assessing. How do we take this and turn it into your results? I think it starts with assessing honestly, like very honestly, your training experience. All right, you're probably a beginner and I have air quotes here if you're still adding weight to your lifts almost every session so that's session to session. But honestly, if you're able to go up every week, you're probably still in a late beginner, early intermediate stage. So if you're able to go up every week, you're probably still in a late beginner, early intermediate stage. So if you're making progress, but it's less consistent and, again, progress is very fluid here because it's not just weight on the bar, it's also your volume, your periodization. If you use some sort of wave type programming, you kind of know who you are if you're not just cranking up weight on the bar super quickly.

Philip Pape: 17:21

So I'm in that situation where I'm not just going to increase weight every session and not necessarily every week. Sometimes I increase sets or reps as a form of adding more work, and there's different reasons for that, outside the scope of today's podcast, different reasons for that outside the scope of today's podcast. But I consider myself intermediate, but still with a huge propensity to grow muscle, and so I'm going to go that moderately aggressive like that. 0.4%. Maybe I could even go more aggressive than that. But the amount of calories required then become actually a little bit of a sustainability issue for me, just like when you cut too quickly and it's not sustainable. I know we're going into the holiday season here. I can only put down so much food at each meal, just how I am, and to go significantly past say 3,200 or 3,500 calories a day would be not that sustainable for me. I could do it, and it's an excuse if I said I couldn't, but that's part of the equation.

Philip Pape: 18:20

So 0.4%, anyway, beginner and immediate. You got to assess where you are and if you're advanced, you know who you are. I mean, I'm not going to try to define that for you. You know who you are, so let's talk about selecting your approach then based on that. If you're a beginner, I would start with something like a half a percent body weight gain per week. If you're a little bit worried about too much fat gain, okay, that's a pound a week for a 200 pound person, but you can push it up to 0.7, 0.8% and be probably fine and you're going to get even more gains. If you're intermediate, you might aim for about 0.3 to 0.4%. So this is like on top of the optimal range that I used to talk about. By a percent or so, I mean 0.1% or so, so that you can push it there. And that's where I'm going 0.4%, and then, if you're advanced, you're going to stay more conservative 0.2, 0.3, which is ironically the old optimal. So everything's been shifted up and it's not just about the rate of gain. So this is important. You have to monitor more than just the scale. We're going to monitor how is your progression in the gym strength, numbers, volume, sets, recovery.

Philip Pape: 19:22

Here's my premise for lifting and programming. Your program and your approach and your recovery should be set up where you are not missing reps period. Whether you're doing a very beginner program like starting strength, or a more advanced program, intermediate, you know, four or five day split, it should be set up and you should be doing things in advance so that you're not missing reps. I don't like the idea that some people have that I'm just going to push for some goal weight and I might fall short, but I stretched myself and that'll be an indicator of progress. That is not objective and if you are constantly failing reps, it tells me that you are overreaching or you are under-recovering with your program. It is not structured appropriately for you and if you're wondering about all this, reach out to me. I'll help you out. I'll help you identify either a standard template or program out there that's probably appropriate given your training age and capacity, or we can talk about how you might tweak a program in a custom way to work for you. So you shouldn't be missing reps right.

Philip Pape: 20:24

Are your lifts consistently progressing the way you want them? You should be taking measurements and progress photos right and tracking your various circumference levels in your body, fat and body composition to make sure they're on track where you want. I have a physique tracker in the Wits and Weights Physique University that everyone uses. So from day one when you go through onboarding, you get that and it shows you how to track all of these measurements. And then it does all the calculations for you and it tells you you are gaining lean mass versus fat at this rate and then you can tell okay, am I doing something that I shouldn't be? Am I not training hard enough or appropriately, or am I eating too much? Or maybe I'm low on protein. There could be something going on that you can tell.

Philip Pape: 21:05

Track your biofeedback, like your energy, your recovery between sessions, your DOMS right, your delayed onset, muscle soreness. Sometimes it's fine, sometimes it's a good thing, sometimes it's not. It's an indicator of under recovery, right? Your sleep, your digestion, your hunger, all of those things as well. All these factors tell you whether you're gaining in the right way, at the right rate for you. So we've talked about rates of gain, we've talked about monitoring progress.

Philip Pape: 21:32

There's one more piece that's crucial to making this work besides lifting consistently. There's one more piece that's crucial to making this work besides lifting consistently, and that is your nutrition quality right. Just because you can gain faster doesn't mean you should throw nutrition out the window, and it's very common, when you have all these calories you want to hit, that you start throwing in a ton more processed foods. You kind of start eating a little more randomly. Your meal timing gets thrown off right. Training days versus off days start to look quite different. You struggle on off days to even eat enough. There's a lot of these issues and we've got to have the principles in place. There's, of course, protein. It shouldn't be that hard to get enough protein when you're eating a lot more calories. You should have already set that up before you went into a muscle building phase. Anyway, of 0.7, one gram per pound body weight of protein shouldn't be hard when the calories are up. And then you still need quality carbs to fuel your training.

Philip Pape: 22:22

Now there's always lots of debates about carbohydrates. My position is that there's no harm in adding carbs. There could be harm in being too low in carbs, especially when you're building muscle. That's the way I like to say it. I'm not going to say low carb is going to harm you or hold you back. I'm just saying that you should try it out and see how carbs help, not just with performance, energy and recovery, but one thing that doesn't get talked about enough the anti-catabolic nature of carbs, the ability of carbs to prevent the breakdown of muscle tissue and make everything else you're doing serve you better, like the protein and the lifting right. It's just. It removes a potential hindrance by increasing your carbs. And then, of course, the balance of your macro is just to make it work, the healthy fats and all that fun stuff to support everything you're doing, which, again, shouldn't be a problem with all those calories. But the key thing with quality is still have the nutrients coming in, still have the fiber, but then you have to manage your timing and you have to manage your frequency so that you don't feel stuffed or uncomfortable and it's sustainable. All of that still applies. All right, now we're about to wrap this up.

Philip Pape: 23:29

I do want to share something that I discovered while reviewing the research. That actually changed how I think about muscle gain. So you remember those studies that showed really high rates of lean mass gains in beginners. What they actually revealed wasn't just about the rate of gain, it was your body's nutrient partitioning abilities when the right conditions are present. And one way to think about that is simply this Remember when you didn't lift weights. Remember when you were less active.

Philip Pape: 24:01

You were afraid of gaining weight. Probably you were afraid and it happens to people on the holidays every year you just gradually overconsume. You're probably consuming a lot more than you think you are and it's a lot more than your body even needs when you're not that active and you're not utilizing those nutrients in any productive way other than energy storage, meaning fat. Now you're completely flipping that on its head to say I'm doing stuff lifting weights, training hard and being active that actually use the nutrients and energy in a productive way for the first time in my life, and your body is super adaptive to that. It's adapting how it uses the food coming in, such that you're a completely different person than the version of you that wasn't active or lifting. So when you do this and I see this with clients all the time it's so incredible and it's so amazing and even my own personal journey has borne this out I don't fear gaining weight anymore. I can't possibly fear it, because every time I gain weight it's combined with the things that use those nutrients and I build muscle, even if some fat comes along for the ride.

Philip Pape: 25:10

I know it's super easy to cut fat after that, and it will be for you too, if you take this approach right. Your after that and it will be for you too, if you take this approach right your strength will skyrocket. Your body composition will change. Your body composition will improve from when you were gaining weight in the past and not lifting, but even potentially when you were gaining weight too slowly. And so ladies not just men, a lot of men I talk to have no problem with the concept of like, okay, I'm going to gain weight, maybe some fat, that's fine.

Philip Pape: 25:34

I sense the fear more in women and this is just a generalization but for some of you women who just need to spend time building muscle, you might have to do it even more aggressively than you thought, and it's going to result in weight gain, but for a purpose. A purpose that's going to make you leaner, stronger, more fit, more capable, and then you could just cut the fat, and you won't have to cut it as much as you think, because you're going to have all this extra muscle and you can walk around at a higher scale weight, you know, like a badass, looking great, carrying extra weight, eating more food Isn't that what we want, right? So the increased food, combined with progressive loading, creates such a strong muscle building stimulus that your body is going to preferentially use all those extra calories, the vast majority of them for muscle growth. So keep this in mind. This is a very important episode, a very important concept that sometimes, being too conservative, would actually hold you back from creating that optimal anabolic environment for muscle growth. Right, it's like trying to build a house with just barely enough materials coming in, right? Yeah, you're not going to have extra materials that represent fat storage, but you're making the whole process much harder and slower than it needs to be. It's just going to take forever. Now if you're the type of person who doesn't like to gain or lose weight and just wants to sit at the same weight and get some body recomp, that's a whole separate discussion you can do that. It's just going to take a lot longer time we're talking on the order of multiple years and you might get frustrated with the lack of progress in the gym because you're just not cranking up that anabolic environment.

Philip Pape: 26:59

All right, I think I've gone on long enough on this and I think it's all very exciting. I'm passionate about it. It's an evolution in our understanding of some really basic things in the science of muscle growth and strength. Don't forget, strength is a huge part of this. It means that many of you can make faster progress while maintaining a smart, methodological or methodical approach. It's not about going crazy and just dumping calories in your body. It's giving you the resources that you need and cranking it right to that limit to fulfill the potential on a reasonable timeframe. Right, because your body is even more remarkable than we thought at building muscle and when you provide the right stimulus through training and adequate nutrients through food, it knows exactly what to do with those resources.

Philip Pape: 27:43

And remember, if you want to implement these new recommendations and all the other things, what do you track? How do you track them? How do you know that it's working to maximize your muscle growth? I've completely revised my muscle building nutrition blueprint to reflect the latest research and it breaks down exactly how to determine your ideal rate of gain, set up your nutrition and monitor your progress. To get those results, just download using the link in my show notes, or, as always, go to witsandweightscom slash free. And if you want to track your progress with the app that I mentioned earlier, which I use, my clients use. Try Macrofactor for free with code WITSANDWEIGHTS. I link to that as well in the show notes. Until next time, keep using your wits lifting those weights and remember that sometimes being too conservative can hold you back from your true potential. This is Philip Pape. You've been listening to Wits and Weights. I'll talk to you next time.

Eat More of THESE Mood-Boosting Foods for Everyday Happiness with Dr. Sarah Ballantyne | Ep 241

Can the specific foods you eat transform your mental well-being? Does nutrition hold the key to unlocking mental resilience?

Philip (@witsandweights) welcomes Dr. Sarah Ballantyne, a PhD researcher and New York Times bestselling author, to discuss the powerful relationship between nutrient-dense foods and happiness. They explain how specific food nutrients can boost mood and resilience in ways supplements cannot. Learn and discover easy strategies to add nutrient-packed foods to your diets, the benefits of a diverse intake, and why eating for abundance rather than restriction may be the key to physical and emotional well-being.

Dr. Sarah Ballantyne is a scientist with a PhD in medical biophysics and an acclaimed author whose work focuses on the links between nutrition, immune health, and chronic disease. Her NutriVore framework encourages a balanced, nutrient-focused approach to food based on evidence, not restriction.

📲 Download your free Nutrition 101 Guide to Body Composition to master your nutrition plan for sustainable fat loss, muscle gain, and improved health, plus support your workouts, or go to witsandweights.com/free

Today, you’ll learn all about:

2:45 Nourish beyond restriction
8:13 Nutrients, happiness, and wellbeing
13:39 Boosting mood and stress management
18:52 Hidden compounds with big benefits
22:35 Diversifying your plate for maximum nutrients
31:57 Tips for making nutritious foods irresistibly flavorful
41:24 Breaking from food fear and diet culture
46:07 Insulin and nutrient diversity misconceptions
49:41 The importance of increasing scientific literacy on nutrition
55:24 Outro

Episode resources:

• nutrivore.com: Click “Join” to go to the free weekly newsletter (bite-sized information)

• TikTok: @drsarahballantyne 

• Threads: @drsarahballantyne 

• YouTube: @drsarahballantyne 

• Instagram: @drsarahballantyne 

• Facebook: fb.com/drsarahballantyne 

The Science Behind Food and Happiness

Understanding the Food-Mood Connection Beyond Just "Comfort Foods"

We often reach for chocolate or ice cream when we're feeling down, seeking that temporary pleasure hit. But what if certain nutrients could create genuine, lasting improvements in your mental well-being?

Research shows that increasing specific foods in your diet can boost happiness as much as landing a new job - and within just 24 months. This isn't about emotional eating or restrictive diets. It's about understanding how nutrients actually impact our brain chemistry and mental health.

The Evidence for Nutrient-Driven Happiness

A groundbreaking 2016 study found that each additional serving of fruits and vegetables increased life satisfaction, up to eight servings daily. The impact was equivalent to going from unemployment to employment - a dramatic shift in well-being that occurred within two years.

This is significant because while we often hear about how nutrition affects our long-term physical health, the mental health benefits happen much sooner. You don't have to wait decades to experience the positive effects.

Key Nutrients That Impact Mental Well-being

Dr. Sarah Ballantyne explains several crucial nutrients that directly influence our mood and mental health:

• Vitamin C: Modulates stress response and affects how our bodies handle cortisol

• Polyphenols: Found in fruits, vegetables, and even chocolate - provide antioxidant and anti-inflammatory benefits

• Fiber: Supports gut bacteria that produce neurotransmitters affecting mood

• B vitamins: Directly impact neurological health and cognitive function

Simple Ways to Boost Your Nutrient Intake

Rather than focusing on restriction, here are practical ways to add more nutrient-dense foods:

1. Start with one extra serving of vegetables at lunch

2. Include a variety of colors (different colors = different beneficial compounds)

3. Experiment with new preparation methods for foods you typically avoid

4. Focus on whole food sources rather than supplements

Beyond Just Fruits and Vegetables

While produce is crucial, other nutrient-dense foods also support mental well-being:

• Mushrooms (contain ergothioneine, nicknamed the "longevity vitamin")

• Legumes (packed with polyphenols)

• Herbs and spices (concentrated sources of beneficial compounds)

• Dark chocolate (yes, really - contains unique polyphenols)

The Bottom Line on Food and Happiness

The evidence is clear: what we eat significantly impacts how we feel mentally, not just physically. By focusing on adding nutrient-dense foods rather than restriction, we can improve our mental well-being while still enjoying all foods in moderation.

This isn't about perfect adherence or avoiding certain foods. It's about making small, sustainable additions that compound over time to support both physical and mental health.

📲 Send me a text message!

👩‍💻 Book a FREE 15-Minute Rapid Nutrition Assessment

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👥 Join our Facebook community for live Q&As & support

✉️ Join the FREE email list with insider strategies and bonus content!

📱 Try MacroFactor for free with code WITSANDWEIGHTS. The only food logging app that adjusts to your metabolism!

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Transcript

Philip Pape: 0:01

If you're like most of us, you've probably tried everything to feel better when you're stressed or overwhelmed Meditation, supplements, you name it but what if the answer was sitting right there in your kitchen? Today, I'm sitting down with Dr Sarah Ballantyne to uncover the fascinating link between specific nutrients and happiness. You'll learn why certain foods can boost your mood more effectively than any supplement, and how simple additions to your diet could improve your life satisfaction as much as landing your dream job. Whether you're dealing with daily stress or you just want to feel more resilient without another restrictive diet, what we're about to share will give you those practical, science-backed strategies that actually work actually work. Welcome to Wits and Weights, the podcast that blends evidence and engineering to help you build smart, efficient systems to achieve your dream physique.

Philip Pape: 0:53

I'm your host, philip Pape, and today we are exploring a surprising connection between nutrient-dense foods and happiness with Dr Sarah Ballantyne. Now, sarah is a New York Times bestselling author with a PhD in medical biophysics, and her research background spans a ton of areas inflammation, immunity, cell biology. And, after her personal experience with the limitations of restrictive dieting raise your hand she developed the NutriVore framework, an evidence-based approach focused on nutrient density rather than restriction. So today, you're going to learn which nutrients are essential for mood and mental health, how to easily add more nutrient-dense foods to your diet, not take things away, and why focusing on abundance could be the key to both physical and psychological well-being. Sarah, thank you so much for coming on the show.

Dr. Sarah Ballantyne: 1:42

Oh, thank you so much for having me, and I'm just like so excited about this conversation today.

Philip Pape: 1:47

Yeah, as I was saying before we started recording, you know I personally had not followed you until someone who follows this show recommended you and then I was kind of I'll say in love with your content right away because of how aligned we are in you know, the freedom, the freedom that comes from knowing there are a variety of ways that you can eat. There's no right or wrong. There's diversity of wonderful foods out there. And you take the lens and the frame of nutrients specifically, which is also a little bit unique because sometimes it gets it's like the fourth thing right. It's like calories, macros, meal timing, oh, and, by the way, get your nutrients.

Dr. Sarah Ballantyne: 2:22

It ends up being the fourth thing on a to-do list where you only ever get three things done.

Philip Pape: 2:27

Yes, right.

Dr. Sarah Ballantyne: 2:28

It's always the so I'm a big to-do list person. Every morning I'll like write out like the things that I want to accomplish for the day, and there's always those couple of things at the bottom of the list that get pushed to tomorrow and then pushed to tomorrow and they don't actually make it far enough to get done until the day before their due right.

Dr. Sarah Ballantyne: 2:45

I think that getting all of the essential nutrients that we need I mean no dietary framework teaches that the USDA dietary guidelines doesn't teach us what nutrients are important.

Dr. Sarah Ballantyne: 2:58

There's 49 essential nutrients, right, they've just decided it's too complex. Right, we'll focus on eating patterns. But when you don't really understand the whys behind those eating patterns, it makes it really really hard to implement. And so if you don't have an appreciation for I'm getting these types of nutrients from these types of foods, we don't need to have it like, all 49 nutrients memorized, right. Like we don't need that kind of encyclopedic knowledge to be able to figure out, like, within the foods we like and fit within our budget and fit within the time we have to prepare food, we don't need to know every single thing about those foods to be able to make those choices so that we're actually getting the full range of nutrients our bodies need. But, like of some basics which, like, we're not taught in school, we're not taught by the medical establishment, we're not taught by the different dietary frameworks that are out there, that base knowledge changes the game, right. It turns any diet into a diet that actually meets our nutritional needs, and that is the thing that actually improves long-term health.

Philip Pape: 3:57

Yeah, and I think it. Also it makes it exciting, interesting and desirous to go after certain foods Like, for example I think about mushrooms you talk about ergothionine, I think it's called, which we can get into as like, great for longevity, I think. And I would have had no idea. And also I'm not a huge fan of mushrooms, Neither is one of my daughters, but my wife makes them and throws them in our food. We're like we eat them anyway and this is kind of incentive. You know, it's just. It's just another incentive to add in nutritious foods and not think like it's about weight loss or it's about a macro like protein or even fiber. Right, like it's much more nuanced but it doesn't have to be complicated, is what I'm hearing.

Dr. Sarah Ballantyne: 4:35

Yes, so I would say it's complex but not complicated, if that makes any sense, right? So you know that's a knowledge base that I need to be able to communicate, but I don't think it's a knowledge base that, like the average person needs. I think we can talk about, like some simple ways to formulate a plate, some, you know, a short list of foods of, like mushrooms that are important foods to add, right Like, where we can get those like really cool unique nutrients and then fill those nutritional gaps. But it doesn't need to be like. I actually think, very, very importantly, I want to take the stress out of food choice. I think, with restrictive diets, there's a lot of like reading labels to look for those food toxins and those inflammatory ingredients, right Like I think a lot of diet culture nowadays is really focused on identifying things to avoid, the vast majority of which is not considering the very important aspect of dose, like how much of that?

Philip Pape: 5:33

compound is a problem. And context, am I getting enough?

Dr. Sarah Ballantyne: 5:35

of that from this food. Generally, the answer is no right, like, yeah, sure, those are foods to moderate, but that doesn't mean avoid completely, right, and I think, that yeah, go ahead.

Philip Pape: 5:46

No, no, no, no, go ahead. Keep going, please.

Dr. Sarah Ballantyne: 5:48

So I think the challenge right now, in a time where, like there's so much food fear, right, so much conspiracy theory around food, food choices become a stressful event, and so I'm not looking to make it complicated in a way that's stressful.

Dr. Sarah Ballantyne: 6:03

I'm looking to redirect our attention to the things that really matter, which is does my diet actually meet my nutritional needs? And actually create some simple structure to take the stress out of it. And then, by adopting a permissive structure where we make room for those delicious foods that someone else is telling me to be terrified of, but I love and makes my life better when I eat them because they give me joy right, if I can intentionally use those as tools for sustainability, those foods as something really positive to include in my diet. So I'm getting enough joy from my diet that I can stick to it. Right, like we're just completely changing the way we think about food choice with the goal of let's make it fun, let's make it easy, let's take the stress out of it. What foods I eat in the day should not be a point of stress and anxiety.

Philip Pape: 6:58

I totally agree. I had a delicious apple not long ago after lunch. It was like a new variety we had tried and just the enjoyment of the taste and the sweetness and knowing that there's nothing wrong with fruits. Like, believe it or not, some people think there's something wrong, you know, granted, if you had 50 apples a day it might be a problem. But again, food matrix. So it's interesting.

Philip Pape: 7:15

You mentioned joy and positivity because kind of the angle I was hoping to take for today's podcast and I know we'll go on a lot of tangents is what the research shows about adding fruits and vegetables into your diet to improve well-being, mood, happiness and I think beyond that, because people are like, oh okay, that's a very kind of narrow thing. Look at this as levels, levels of education and levels of application, in that there are probably a lot of people eating a ton of processed foods without many nutritious foods in their diet. They're like what do I even do to start? And I don't want to go to a NutriVore index and try to make a whole puzzle out of a million foods, right? So when we talk about joy and well-being and happiness, I don't think we're talking about necessarily comfort foods or the hedonic pleasure. We're talking about genuine, lasting improvements in our well-being. What's the difference between those? That'll be the first question. And then what is the baseline step up people can take in their diets to get toward that point?

Dr. Sarah Ballantyne: 8:12

Yeah, so when we talk about quality of life foods which is how I like to think of them I'm referring very specifically to those like high dopamine response foods, right? So, like the foods that have that like salt, sugar, fat combination that just triggers like all of the reward centers in our brain that give me, like a short-term like dopamine high, but that aren't necessarily the foods that are supplying a lot of the nutrients that I need for long-term mental health, physical health, right, stress management, things that are actually going to make a profound impact in just like how I feel walking through the world. I think it's really important to like have room for both, right? So those like dopamine hits.

Philip Pape: 8:58

Oh, for sure.

Dr. Sarah Ballantyne: 9:00

I don't see those as bad foods but, like often, we're talking about foods that don't have a lot of nutritional value and when they're overabundant in our diet, it makes it really hard to select foods in the rest of our diet so that we're still getting all of the essential vitamins and minerals and amino acids and fatty acids and phytonutrients that are really important, if not technically essential, that actually support our long-term health. So when we're talking about those foods like, what are the nutrients that we can focus on to support mental health? Or, as you just mentioned, right, what is my entry point? What is my one little thing now that I can do?

Dr. Sarah Ballantyne: 9:36

When I talk about habit formation I love, like, what is the easiest thing? What is going to be something that's so easy for you to do that it's a no-brainer, it fits within your budget, it fits within your time. It's going to be foods that I mean maybe they're not dopamine foods, but they're still foods that you like and you can build on that success. And it is always, always, always. Let's start with adding a serving of vegetables. That is, like, always step one, and a part of that is we get the same benefit to all-cause mortality as a general indicator of health and longevity, going from zero to one servings of fruits and vegetables per day, as we do from going from one to four. So like that first little baby step.

Philip Pape: 10:18

It's like an exponential curve. Yeah, yeah.

Dr. Sarah Ballantyne: 10:20

Yeah, we get sort of diminishing returns. We still get benefit going higher, but we get sort of diminishing returns the higher we go. And it kind of plateaus. Different studies show different plateau levels. Some are as low as three servings of vegetables per day. Some are as high as eight right, but five is kind of where most studies show above that we're not necessarily getting additional benefit from more servings of vegetables. And then with fruit it's like two to three servings is kind of the sweet spot where we get the most health benefit, kind of where most of the science is at.

Dr. Sarah Ballantyne: 10:51

But there was this amazing 2016 study, I think out of Australia, where they looked at just measurements of like life satisfaction, right, so just like how happy are you, and they looked at fruit and vegetable intake and they basically showed that for every servings of fruit or vegetable added per day, that a person ate up to eight servings per day. Total. That aligns very well with like five servings of vegetables and three servings with a fruit. They had like this increase in happiness, well-being, life satisfaction and the difference they calculated, right. So it's sort of a theoretical study. They calculated the difference between going from zero fruits and vegetables per day to going to eight was an equivalent increase in life satisfaction as going from unemployed to employed. I mean, I would love to see like an intervention version of the study where they take people who are not eating any fruits and vegetables and, like here, eat eight fruits and vegetables per day and we're going to measure, like how long it takes to like have this improvement in life satisfaction. But, based on the data they had, they predicted that improvement occurs in under two years. Whereas when you think about, like, the benefits of eating lots of fruits and vegetables I mean you might have some like digestive improvements that are pretty fast, right, but a lot of the rationale is so that you won't have cardiovascular disease in three years right To diabetes in 20 years right, it feels very far off and I think sometimes it's really hard to feel motivated to make food changes now, especially when that's really like outside of our routine and our comfort area.

Dr. Sarah Ballantyne: 12:26

It's maybe flavors we're not familiar with, Maybe we find vegetables to be bitter it's really hard to make those choices. When we're thinking about some kind of far off like consequence right, that's not going to be a problem for decades. But when you think about, yeah, you could feel that much happier in some months, maybe up to two years. Now we're talking right Like now. This feels like yeah, this is worth it and I'm just going to be a happier person and all I have to do is eat more fruits and vegetables. That's amazing, and the best place to start is the beginning. Just add more compared to what you're eating now.

Philip Pape: 12:59

Yeah, I feel like we see that similar pattern with anything that promotes healthy living, like strength training. You're not necessarily going to get a ton of benefit in the first few weeks. In fact, you might feel like what am I doing? And then it takes a little bit, even like walking more. We know that's huge for all-cause mortality, but it's not like you're just going to get an immediate benefit the first week necessarily. So, speaking of the fruits and vegetables, then the study you're talking about is exactly the one that made me think about this topic to begin with, and it's in your book. What's happening at a biochemical level? Is it changing our mental state, or is it that that lifestyle is then correlated with overall healthier eating and behavior?

Dr. Sarah Ballantyne: 13:39

Yeah, so studies that look at this are really trying to control for as many other factors as possible. So we're trying to make sure that this isn't. People who eat more fruits and vegetables are also more active and they're also younger, right, and they also have, you know, a higher socioeconomic status, like those things are true, right? So people who eat more fruits and vegetables do tend to have other health related behaviors, but they try to account for that in their mathematical analysis as much as possible to try to tease out what part of this effect is just the fruits and vegetables versus, like, something about this group of people. But, like, absolutely, there is a piece of this that you know, health behavior stack, right. So someone who is very active, probably also trying to get more sleep, right. So probably also trying to eat a diet to fuel athletic performance, right, like, we do tend to see those patterns. But we know also that there's nutrients in fruits and vegetables that are directly linked to physical and mental health. So big one here is vitamin C, right, fruits and vegetables are our best food sources of vitamin C, and vitamin C is a really key modulator of the stress response. So vitamin C is required for the production of catecholamines like adrenaline, noradrenaline, cortisol, but it also modulates the sensitivity of catecholamine receptors. So it's also modulating how, like, the body responds to the production of those stress hormones. So what happens is when we are not getting enough vitamin C, that magnifies the stress response. When we are stressed we kind of burn through vitamin C so we kind of get it from like both sides. We can kind of get this like runaway snowball of badness or we've got a really clear intervention point.

Dr. Sarah Ballantyne: 15:25

So they've done studies where they give people vitamin C. There's one study done, I think 2004, if I remember correctly, where they gave people vitamin C. So they did a thousand milligrams three times a day for two weeks. So technically that is above the tolerable upper limit of vitamin C. So just throwing that little caveat out there, the tolerable upper limit of vitamin C. So just throwing that little caveat out there, the tolerable upper limit for vitamin C is 2000 milligrams. That's based on GI side effects. We don't see other negative health effects of too much vitamin C until about 10 grams per day and that seems to increase risk of kidney stones, at least in men. But if anytime you're going above the tolerable upper limit, that's a talk with your doctor moment. So just throwing out the caveat.

Dr. Sarah Ballantyne: 16:10

But then they measured the stress response to mental arithmetic. So like quick, what's 27 times three divided by two plus 17,. Right, like that type of though. And you got to figure that out. Can you really anxious about it? You got to do it real fast. Or they had people do public speaking and measured their stress response and showed that just two weeks of upping vitamin C intake really dramatically decreased the stress response.

Dr. Sarah Ballantyne: 16:36

There's been other studies showing that people who consume more vitamin C have lower risk of depression and anxiety. There was a study out of the Nurses' Health Study that showed that two servings of citrus fruit per day one of our best food sources of vitamin C, including what's cool about citrus is the polyphenols in citrus increase the bioavailability of vitamin C. So we actually use that vitamin C a little bit more readily. And they had 18%, 20% somewhere in that vicinity reduced risk of developing depression compared to two servings or less per week. So that is like just an example of one nutrient.

Dr. Sarah Ballantyne: 17:12

We've got lots of fiber that improves the composition of the gut microbiome, our gut bacteria, and they're linked to just about everything that can go wrong with us health-wise. But a major path here is like they're actually making neurotransmitters. They're impacting our neurological health prettywise. But a major path here is they're actually making neurotransmitters. They're impacting our neurological health pretty dramatically. We do know there's a very strong link between gut microbiome activity and mental health challenges. There's other things, right, vitamin B6, other nutrients in fruits and vegetables that are directly impacting our neurophysiology, which we experience as mood and cognition and resilience, and that's all in those fruits and vegetables. So that is like our mechanistic explanation. And then we've got the like added benefit of. You know, probably if we're adding more fruits and vegetables, we're going to start making other changes that will also like getting more activity also boosts mood, right.

Philip Pape: 18:07

Absolutely. Getting more sleep also boosts mood right.

Dr. Sarah Ballantyne: 18:09

So like we're also building more health habits, that are all going to stack.

Philip Pape: 18:14

Yeah, and there's the benefits like being more full and having more hydration and all of that. I like that you mentioned. I mean, we talked about the levels and what we're saying here is, just by adding some level of servings of fruits and vegetables and we didn't even say it has to be these or has to be that you're probably going to have major benefits. You mentioned vitamin C. There's a ton of other vitamins and minerals and you mentioned polyphenols and I wanted to hit on that one because I feel like there's a whole hidden world of compounds in vegetables and fruits that we are oblivious to because they're not on a nutrition label and they're not in an ingredient list. Can you just talk a little bit about that and how important that is?

Dr. Sarah Ballantyne: 18:51

Yeah, so polyphenols are the best studied, best understood class of phytonutrients, phyto meaning plant, nutrient meaning thing that we use as a raw material. Right, and what's interesting about phytonutrients, like broadly as a class, is we consider them non-essential, but we know that the more are, on average. A lot of that comes out of research into polyphenols. So it was actually before vitamin C was identified as the nutrient that, like if we didn't get enough, we developed scurvy. They knew that lemon juice or lemons or citrus fruit we developed scurvy. They knew that lemon juice or lemons or citrus fruit could treat scurvy.

Dr. Sarah Ballantyne: 19:27

They also knew, like turnips and turnip greens, like they had some other like foods that they knew could prevent scurvy. And so a lot of that early research was done on lemons and there were actually some polyphenols in a lemon peel I think it was that they identified as being protective against the scurvy rash, even though it was like a whole separate pathway compared to vitamin C and scurvy. And so when they first sort of identified these polyphenols they didn't realize it was such a huge class of molecules at the time and they actually initially labeled them vitamin P, like they got to be a vitamin for a little while and then it was like, oh, okay, like Pluto was a planet, yeah, they're not Right.

Dr. Sarah Ballantyne: 20:06

Yes, very much Like we're changing our description. Once we realize it's not technically essential, then we take it out of the vitamin classification that you only get the vitamin name if you're absolutely essential. I mean, there's about 10,000 of them and they are broadly antioxidant and anti-inflammatory, and then different ones have different additional effects, right? So some can localize in different tissues, they can bind with different receptors. So we'll see the polyphenols in coffee are different than the polyphenols in tea, which are different than the polyphenols in chocolate, which are different than the polyphenols in citrus fruit, which is different than the polyphenols in apples.

Dr. Sarah Ballantyne: 20:44

Right, we're getting different ones from different foods, and it's actually one of the things that makes different families of fruits and vegetables so beneficial and is a really strong argument for diversifying our diet as much as possible, so eating as wide a variety of foods as possible, because then we're getting maybe these, you know, 40 polyphenols from this food and like a different 50 polyphenols from this other food. But fruits and vegetables are generally our best sources, right? There's some other, right? I mentioned chocolate and coffee and tea. Legumes, as a general rule, are really packed with polyphenols as well, so like lentils are just like, really really high in polyphenols, so those are sort of our best sources. And what's really just fascinating is there's like increased polyphenol intake reduces risk of again just about everything that can go wrong with us health-wise. Right, it's just one of those nutrients that, because it's antioxidant, because it's anti-inflammatory, it then intersects with just about every pathology, just because inflammation is part of the pathogenesis of just about every chronic illness.

Philip Pape: 21:49

Okay, so that makes sense and I'm glad you threw in. We don't want to limit the discussion to fruits and vegetables. Right, there's all the other food. I mean, there's a whole bunch of food that has all these compounds.

Dr. Sarah Ballantyne: 21:59

Anytime I can bring in chocolate, I'm going to for sure.

Philip Pape: 22:02

I'm with you, I love chocolate, I love chocolate Then I guess the next level down would be if someone's saying wanting to go from zero to two or three servings a day of something, whether it is fruits and vegetables or some other compounds, just to make it easy for them and again we're talking about mood well-being, kind of this general improvement in health. You did mention diversity, so part of the answer might be well, it's going to change like day to day, week to week. But are there some basics that you would say start here? You know, go to the grocery store, everyone can get these things. Start there and then you can start to get more complex from there.

Dr. Sarah Ballantyne: 22:35

Yeah. So this argument kind of goes beyond polyphenols, because we've got some other classes of phytonutrients that are really important, so, for example, the glucosinolates in the cruciferous vegetable family, so that's broccoli, cabbage, kale, those types of vegetables.

Philip Pape: 22:50

And don't leave out Brussels sprouts please, my favorite.

Dr. Sarah Ballantyne: 22:52

And Brussels sprouts is also in this family, yeah.

Dr. Sarah Ballantyne: 22:55

They reduce risk of cardiovascular disease and cancer very, very strongly. And then some of those because again it's another big class of phytonutrients are really important for reducing risk of neurodegenerative disease like Alzheimer's disease. The onion family has a similar class of phytonutrients called thiosulfonates Again reduced risk of cancer, type 2 diabetes, cardiovascular disease. The beet like beets are kind of a small family, like it's beets and chard and amaranth and like prickly pear and dragon fruit, but they have a class of phytonutrients called betalains, named after being discovered in beets, that really strongly reduce risk of cardiovascular disease but also improve muscle like exercise performance and muscle recovery. It's why beetroot supplements are like all over social media.

Philip Pape: 23:41

right now they're in pre-workouts, betaine yeah, yeah yeah, that's true.

Dr. Sarah Ballantyne: 23:44

And then we've got you know like we can keep going right with the ergothionine, which is a really cool antioxidant amino acid. That's non-proteinogenic, so we don't incorporate it into our proteins but it still has biological roles in our bodies From mushrooms. It's also been nicknamed the longevity vitamin by scientists because it's so strongly antioxidant, reduces risk of basically everything associated with aging, which includes Alzheimer's disease, parkinson's disease, dementia in general. So if we start to think about, like the patterns, like what types of fruit and vegetable families we're going to get these from, like I've already named some, right? So cruciferous vegetables like ticking that box, super beneficial. The onion families that include onions, garlic chives right, ticking that box, super beneficial, the onion family. So that would include onions, garlic, chives. Right, ticking that box, super beneficial. Mushrooms ticking that box. Citrus fruits those polyphenols are so beneficial. Ticking that box.

Dr. Sarah Ballantyne: 24:37

Berries are best food source of anthocyanins, which also improve exercise performance and muscle recovery, but also can reduce pain sensation. Exercise performance and muscle recovery but also can reduce pain sensation, so it can be very, very helpful for chronic pain. Our best food source of those is berries. So, like there's another box to check, we can look at the sugars that are really good for the gut bacteria in leafy vegetables like lettuce or spinach. We can look at the slow burning carbohydrates, also really good for the gut microbiome in root vegetables.

Dr. Sarah Ballantyne: 25:07

So like those are like the ones that come to mind as like if we're going to start adding, like trying to get as much like spread across those fruit and vegetable families as possible, get those beats maybe like once a week, right? So some people think of this as trying to hit the different colors of fruits and vegetables. So there's five color families red, orange and yellow, green, blue and purple, white and brown. But I think eat the rainbow and like the different fruits and vegetable families are like overlapping concepts but they're still slightly different. Right, like you can get to one place from the other. Right, you can focus on the fruit and vegetable families and end up at eat the rainbow.

Philip Pape: 25:45

But I kind of think like- yeah, and you can have like three things with one color, but still diverse, right, yes, exactly.

Dr. Sarah Ballantyne: 25:51

My wife in case she does that.

Philip Pape: 25:52

I'm like we're eating a white dinner tonight, aren't we? But it's like cauliflower and three other things that are just light colored.

Dr. Sarah Ballantyne: 25:58

Cauliflower and turnips, and yeah, you can absolutely get diversity and it's not Eat the Rainbow and you get diversity and it's not eat the rainbow and you can get eat the rainbow and still be hitting all the same fruit and vegetable family. So I kind of like you know both of those concepts ideally, would kind of be somewhere in our brain. Right Like, okay, this has been a lot of cruciferous vegetables this week. Now maybe let me add some like carrots, or you know, some asparagus, right, something from a completely different vegetable family, even though I'm still hitting green. Right Like now I'm mixing up which vegetable family I'm actually selecting from. So kind of having those ideas. But it doesn't mean like, okay, I just listed 7,000 foods. It doesn't mean we need to go. You know, I would.

Dr. Sarah Ballantyne: 26:41

Generally nutrition changes. We never want to go from zero to 100 in 0.6 seconds. Right Like, that can actually cause increased GI symptoms. Right Like, it's not generally fun. And why, like there's no like time limit here? Right, there's no deadline where someone's gonna be like, oh, you're not eating your five servings of vegetables yet or your three servings of fruit yet You're gonna like fail your assignment. Like there's not a teacher waiting for you to turn it in. There's no timeframe that we have to accomplish all of these diet changes in, which is great, because that gives us permission to tackle that step by step, to set ourselves up, to figure out each piece, turn that into a healthy habit, build that success and then figure out what the next piece is going to be so we can each take our own path there.

Dr. Sarah Ballantyne: 27:28

And maybe it's adding a serving of vegetables to lunch, right? Maybe that's the first step. And with lunch, okay, what's going to be easiest for me? Maybe some carrot and celery sticks with a dip I really like. Maybe it's adding some lettuce to my sandwich, right. Or picking a soup that has some vegetables in it, right, some chicken vegetable soup for lunch. Maybe it's some guacamole, right. Like what is the thing that's going to make sense in my life? And like I'm going to work on that habit.

Dr. Sarah Ballantyne: 27:56

And then I'm going to go okay, well, I've got veggies and dip, like as a lunch food, as part of my routine, so now I'm going to try to mix up those veggies. So now I'm going to try to add, you know, some kohlrabi, delicious cruciferous vegetable that is a great dipping vegetable, I know, not familiar for a lot of people, but because of that it tends to be very affordable, or some, you know, broccoli or cauliflower. Maybe I'll add some tomatoes, right, like maybe I'm going to branch out my veggies that I'm going to dip in for lunch, right, like maybe I'm going to branch out my veggies that I'm going to dip in for lunch, right, so now I can start adding that more rainbow of colors, more different fruits and vegetable families. So I think it's important to sort of give ourselves permission to iterate in a way that we're still making those steps towards diet improvement and towards that diet that is going to increase our life satisfaction dramatically from unemployment to employment levels, their life satisfaction dramatically from unemployment to employment levels.

Dr. Sarah Ballantyne: 28:49

But do it in such a way that we're not tackling it with a diet mentality right. We're not like jumping in and like muscling our way through until we can't anymore and then falling off that bandwagon. Instead we're adopting it as a lifelong healthy habit. So that means making it so much part of our routine. That's the norm, right, that's the automatic, that's the default mode and that's where we see, like, the really dramatic improvements to long-term health outcomes is when we can make those healthy not just diet changes, lifestyle changes to health-related behaviors. When we can make all of that our default mode, that's when we really win.

Carol: 29:24

Before I started working with Philip, I had been trying to lose weight and was really struggling with consistency, but from the very beginning, philip took the time to listen to me and understand my goals. He taught me the importance of fueling my body with the right foods to optimize my training in the gym, and I lost 20 pounds. More importantly, I gained self-confidence. What sets Philip apart is the personal connection. He supported and encouraged me every step of the way. So if you're looking for a coach who cares about your journey as much as you do, I highly recommend Philip Pape.

Philip Pape: 30:04

Yeah, I agree. I like the accessible approach you talked about and adding things in. That's a revelation I had a few years ago as well and it's a big switch for people, right. I know you came from a paleo background and I did as well, and it was like what do you not eat? As opposed to let's add stuff in.

Dr. Sarah Ballantyne: 30:19

And also perfect or bust right yeah.

Philip Pape: 30:21

Like that is oh yeah, all or nothing. Yeah, yeah.

Dr. Sarah Ballantyne: 30:23

Yeah, it was like oh, you ate rice, you're not paleo, right? Like I mean paleo communities.

Philip Pape: 30:27

Oh, but I'm doing modified paleo anyway.

Dr. Sarah Ballantyne: 30:28

Right, I mean, the paleo community is not the only one like this, where it's like you have to do all of this perfectly every single day.

Philip Pape: 31:00

Or it doesn get back to not worried about what happens two years from now, or you're going to not get cardiovascular disease, which is great, but also how's it improving my life in the moment? So two follow-ups then, from everything you said. First, I can just picture a wonderful week of menu options for my meal prep based on all these, because my wife does most of the cooking these days, but she definitely loves a lot of what you said, especially beets, and so my first question is that's on my very short list of like. It's very difficult for me to eat let's just put it that way like beets, tomatoes and mushrooms, and so I'll have like tomato soup or like mashed diced tomatoes in there. You know, I'll say I'll have her or me sneak it in Same thing with mushrooms. You know, chop them up. Beets, however. I've had difficulty. So for everybody listening who's picky about any number of these things which you know is a fact, people are picky what are your go-to one or two strategies to start actually incorporating these?

Dr. Sarah Ballantyne: 31:56

So, first of all, I think hiding foods you don't like from yourself is an absolutely valid strategy. So chopping up those mushrooms and adding them to like a mince right, like that's actually how I got my kids to like mushrooms. I started with chopping them up very, very small and putting them in like shepherd's pie type dishes where you can't really, and you got rid of the texture. Then it's just like a little bit of umami flavor. That's how I got them to like mushrooms. Then it was very, very small pieces in soup, right, like we built it slowly over time. So, like, hiding it from yourself is great, but there's like there's some specific tricks for specific food. You mentioned beets. So the thing that most people don't like in beets is called jasmine. I think that's how it's pronounced. I don't know. I'm just trying to say it confidently so we don't second guess my pronunciation.

Philip Pape: 32:46

We'll remember Princess Jasmine. That's how my kids remember it. Okay.

Dr. Sarah Ballantyne: 32:49

So that's got a really like earthy flavor.

Philip Pape: 32:52

Yes, it tastes like dirt. That's my opinion. It just tastes like dirt, okay, some people are more sensitive to it than others.

Dr. Sarah Ballantyne: 32:59

So you're like a super taster for Jasmine or geosmin again, and that is usually the flavor that people really strongly dislike in beets. So one thing to know is that some varieties of beets don't have as much, so like golden beet tend to have less than like the beet colored beets. You know, like those really deep red, like our standard typical beets. The flavor is a little bit milder raw and you can eat beets raw. So you might like it grated and added to a salad or sliced really thin and added to a salad, especially golden beets, if you don't like the flavor of them roasted. But also we can deactivate that flavor with an acid. So that's why dishes that use like balsamic vinegar and beets like roasted together delicious, right. So like you're actually deactivating a lot, and the smaller you cut your beets, the more you can get that acid in there. So you might like pickled beets more than fresh beets, right? So like understanding those tips people who don't like cruciferous vegetables. It's actually the glucosinolates, those like really beneficial phytonutrients in there. Some people are bitter super tasters so they can taste that flavor just so much more strongly than most people can, and some people can't taste it at all. For some people Brussels sprouts are sweet, which is wild to me. I'm a bitter taster but not a super taster, so for me they're bitter, but they're pleasantly bitter. But there's some people for whom that is just so much.

Dr. Sarah Ballantyne: 34:26

So, things that you can do, you can blanch the vegetable before you cook it, however you were going to. That'll leach some of those bitter compounds out. So like blanch your broccoli or your Brussels sprouts and then roast it. Then you can also like okay, it's got a flavor, let's balance it. So we can balance with some acidity, some astringency. So use some lemon juice or some vinegar. We can balance with some sweetness. So I make a Brussels sprout dish where I roast them first and then I toss them with a tablespoon for a whole big dish of maple syrup and balsamic vinegar. You can see, balsamic is definitely my go-to. And then I love adding, like some toasted pecans, maybe a little bit of bacon, right, like just like that.

Philip Pape: 35:09

Oh my God, I gotta go to dinner at your house. This is great.

Dr. Sarah Ballantyne: 35:13

Right. So it's understanding, like what is in this thing that I don't like and how can I balance that with culinary techniques so that the full experience is something that I will like? There was a study done just a few years ago where they served vegetable dishes in college cafeterias. They did this study in five different college cafeterias and I think they had like 70 different vegetable dishes and they tested giving the vegetables either like a neutral name, like green beans, or a health-focused name, like nutritious green beans, or a taste-focused name like sizzling Sichuan green beans with toasted garlic.

Philip Pape: 35:53

You got me on that. I know which one wins.

Dr. Sarah Ballantyne: 35:56

Right, well, yeah, the exact same dish. The only thing different was the name on the label in front of it. And they actually they did as much control as they could, so they actually made sure that the entire menu was the same, so that the dish was presented beside the exact same things. And then, like five weeks apart, now it's the exact same green bean dish, but now with a different name. And they showed that, compared to the neutral name, giving those green beans a health focus name decreased vegetable selection by 15%. Very, very sad. And giving it a taste focus name increased vegetable selection by 14%. So the difference was 29% between nutritious green beans and sizzling Sichuan green beans with toasted garlic, even though it was the exact same dish, like prepared the exact same way. And then they showed that, when they had the taste focus names, people on average ate 1.78 kilograms more of the vegetable dishes per day, which is, by the way, like the equivalent of about five servings. Right, like it's just a huge, huge difference. It was like 38%, 39%.

Philip Pape: 37:05

They're going to be so happy.

Dr. Sarah Ballantyne: 37:06

They're going to be so happy, yes, and you know what, when you're in college you need it. So, all good. They showed some other cool things, like the college cafeterias that just sort of had a reputation for making better vegetable dishes. People just selected more vegetables period from those college cafeterias, right? So there, there's other things that went into this. And then they did all this like psychology, like side experiments, to make sure it was the anticipation of delicious flavor that was really the key driver of that effect, which it was.

Dr. Sarah Ballantyne: 37:35

But, like, that's like another thing that we can do in our own homes, right, so like, maybe it is perusing the cookbooks we already have or some recipes on the internet for the things that just they look delicious. Right, it doesn't necessarily have to be the name, it just has to be the anticipation. Right, oh my gosh, look at this amazing, you know, beet salad with walnuts and arugula and goat cheese. This looks delicious. Let's make this, right. And then we're like, we're expecting it to be good because we've looked for the things that look like a really delicious way to prepare that meal, and then, if it's not like, you keep going, right, you keep exploring until you find the one that you like. Or why can't we give dishes snazzy names at home, right, like why can't we call that steamed broccoli, right? Yeah, it's basic, it's just steamed broccoli, but we could call it beyond basic broccoli bomb. I really should have had something prepared.

Philip Pape: 38:32

Yeah, I love it. No, I give you credit for trying to come up with something on the spot.

Dr. Sarah Ballantyne: 38:36

I just went straight to alliteration. I'm like what are all of the beautiful broccoli something?

Philip Pape: 38:41

There's something alliterative, bombastic broccoli. Yeah, yeah, I know what you mean.

Dr. Sarah Ballantyne: 38:47

Best beautiful broccoli something. But yeah, like we can still do that at home. So, like, also like taking advantage of that. Psychology and studies do show that like our flavor preference is very affected by familiarity. So even just like you might not like it now, but like having it more often, you may develop a liking for it, right, so there could be a genetic thing that's kind of hard to like if cilantro tastes like soap you might not ever get there, that's fine, but like we can leverage these other tools to still work on that, habit formation.

Philip Pape: 39:18

Cool. I love it all. I mean, there's not really, I'll say, an excuse holding us back if we want to incorporate these. It's the naming or the skill of the cooking or how you cook it. Or you mentioned recipes. I mean, recipes have been hot for a decade plus. Now you know one thing I give credit to some of the dieting camps. They come up with some amazing recipe books, right Like the paleo and all of them. Sometimes, you know, they really go out of their way to try to do that.

Philip Pape: 39:43

I think a good segue because I want to make sure to cover this while I have your time is your history and evolving your views. And you mentioned something earlier. Actually, quote you said what did you say today? I wrote it down oh, really important, but not technically essential. I want to tease on that. I know where you're going with that and I want to do it in the context of, for example, at the macro level carbs okay, and I want to do it in the context of, for example, at the macro level carbs okay.

Philip Pape: 40:06

Hot button topic, and we know that it is also again in paleo, no grains, carbs tend to be lower. In keto, it's like super low carb. It's a whole thing. It's been a huge thing. So I have your book right and highlighted a section that says contrary to purported claims, rigorous and well-controlled metabolic ward studies have confirmed that low-carbon keto diets don't turn us into fat-burning machines with increased energy expenditure and preferential fat loss. If anything, they do the opposite and they may be associated with unwanted side effects. And the side effects might be a reflection of how many amazing things insulin does to the body beyond simply shuttling glucose cells.

Philip Pape: 40:44

And I'm not trying to get into a carb debate or anything, even though you and I are probably on the same page there. It's more of the skepticism of the industry and also how we evaluate all of this stuff. But how do we frame it? Just like you framed vegetables into a positive right, Whether it is carbs or some other vilified thing. This is a big topic, right? It's kind of what you're all about. So I want to hear how that's happened. And now you've got a history behind you that people will still bring up, because you've kind of betrayed a whole bunch of people that you may have supported, and now you've got folks criticizing you with the new stuff. So what are your thoughts on all that?

Dr. Sarah Ballantyne: 41:23

Yeah, it feels like a lot of threads to pull together. So first, I sort of address you know you mentioned earlier that I came from paleo, right, I sort of come from that food fear don't eat these foods because of the lectins right type place and my transition to evidence-based was iterative. It took place over several years. Evidence-based was iterative. It took place over several years. I started talking about it in 2019 and you know, I don't know when I finished like I don't know at what point. I was like aha, now I have finally addressed all of my food fears and I've moved on and I, you know, have this like different perspective. Maybe I'm not, maybe I haven't finished my transition, maybe I'm still in the middle of it. I will only know that in the future when I look back on this moment. Right, but that was very much driven by for me, like researching the gut microbiome and being confronted again it's this sort of iterative process by studies that were showing me the incredible benefit of foods that I was afraid to eat, right, of foods that I had learned to be fearful of in this community. I'm like, yeah, but like, look at how amazing these specific types of fiber are and these polyphenols, right, and this collection of nutrients that lentils have for the gut microbiome and the improvements in gut microbial activity that are then reducing risk of cardiovascular disease and type 2 diabetes and Alzheimer's disease. And oh, by the way, look at these studies showing the more legumes like lentils somebody eats, the lower the risk of those health conditions.

Dr. Sarah Ballantyne: 42:56

And that was sort of like the beginning of me opening my eyes to the logical fallacies that I had bought into, right? So this idea that just because something is harmful in large doses right, or that I can identify a chemical in a food that is harmful, that doesn't mean the whole food is bad for my whole body. And we really want to look at, okay, so sure, this food has carbohydrates, carbohydrates in their simplest form, in overabundance. If I'm eating, like, just plain sugar, like yeah, that is going to, you know, eventually lead to insulin resistance because I'm sort of inundating the system with glucose. And so the logical fallacy, the way that I used to think of, is like okay, so this food compound, look at how harmful it is. Therefore, the whole foods that contain sugar or lectins or whatever, I shouldn't eat those.

Dr. Sarah Ballantyne: 43:51

But we also have to look at what are the nutrients in this system, right? So am I being compensated, let's say, in this potato, by minerals and vitamins that are required for the insulin response, right, that are required to produce insulin that actually improve how the gluteal force quarter is like receptor right Into my blood so that I'm not actually overwhelming that system, because there's also like fiber and resistant starch right In these potatoes. So like let's look at how the whole food because foods are also biologically complex as we are let's also not look at just the one system, right, let's not just look at insulin. Let's look at how that potassium is improving my kidney health and helping to reduce my blood pressure, right, like let's look at how this is a really satiating food so that it's actually going to help regulate my hunger hormones. Right, like there's other things that we want to look at. And so for me, the transition is really marked by like taking a much more like 30,000 foot view to how I look at foods and looking at the biggest and most rigorous studies, looking at systematic reviews and meta-analyses and not looking as much the interaction between one food compound and one biological system right, so, getting away from mechanisms which hurts my heart a little bit because that's the medical research I used to do.

Dr. Sarah Ballantyne: 45:13

But getting away from mechanisms to look at the big picture and I think that is like thematic in the wellness community now is sort of like missing the forest for the trees because we get so focused on oxalates, right, like 17 different conditions. Then oxalates cause, in a very, very small set of circumstances, right, kidney stones and missing the part of. Yeah, but these vegetables are some of the most important vegetables for kidney health and when we eat more of these vegetables we reduce risk of kidney stones. Right, because there's other nutritive compounds that are affecting that system. So we need to look at their net effect, not one specific one. So that's sort of like the way that I've changed thinking about it.

Dr. Sarah Ballantyne: 45:50

And with carbohydrates, specifically, right, are we looking at insulin as just doing this one thing binding with its receptor, making the glute for transporter. We move from inside of the cell into the cell membrane so glucose can get inside the cell. But insulin does so much more than that. I mean hormones in general. There's no hormone that only has one job. Hormones are really really fascinating. They're signaling molecules, so they cause other things to happen.

Dr. Sarah Ballantyne: 46:17

But insulin is important for thyroid hormone conversion, so it's directly controlling our metabolism. It's important for getting amino acids into our muscle tissues and for myosynthesis, so really important for muscle repair and recovery and for gaining strength. That's why you don't find a ton of low carb athletes, at least not ones that stay that way for a long period of time. It's really important for it affects bone derived neurotropic factor, which is a really important cognition neurotransmitter in our brains, so very important for cognition. So people who either are insulin resistant like we don't want that either right, or who are on extremely low carbohydrate diets, tend to not be able to solve puzzles as quickly, right, when they're put into these different experiments testing cognition. Also affects sex hormone binding globulin in our bloodstream, so can therefore then affect androgens, so estrogen, progesterone, testosterone and all of the downstream effects there, right.

Dr. Sarah Ballantyne: 47:19

So like insulin does so much, and that's why we kind of see the similar types of health problems in, for example, people with type two diabetes, as we do in long-term ketogenic diets, which certainly have therapeutic potential right, like can be life-changing for people with refractory epilepsy. So I'm like not saying that there's not a time and a place for making that trade, but when we're so focused on weight loss as the only target of a diet and we are only thinking about the weight that we're going to lose, doing whatever the template is, and we're not thinking about the health ramifications. We're in a situation where we're trading health for weight loss and that is because of the lack of nutrients. When you start cutting out foods, developing food fear, you're cutting out the important nutrients that are important for all these other systems and adopting a really simplistic view of things like what insulin does.

Philip Pape: 48:19

Yeah, exactly, there's a lot to unpack. I'm not going to address it all, but kind of the big takeaways for me is one how you shifted from looking at mechanisms, mechanistic outcomes and so many studies, even that not only they're mechanistic, they don't even you know they might be on rats only and there's other confounders there. Like, if you believed some of those studies, you would say protein is terrible for you. You know, and I'm like, okay, so not mechanistic, but more in context. And then I kind of visualized how we have you said, the biggest picture of all and kind of, if you drill from the bottom up, you have the food you mentioned, the potato, all of the compounds, all the nutrients in that and how they work together and sometimes they offset others, and there's the dose level as well. Then you have the food matrix of your diet, right, like, combining all these things together also has context. And then your lifestyle or humanity or whatever level you want to go to.

Philip Pape: 49:10

I'm thinking of, like, the human individual and their day to day and week to week. It's so powerful because it's liberating. I mean it's liberating when people hear that and they're like, look, I really can't eat anything. I just have to, like, understand why I'm doing it and the benefits it gives me and add in, from a nutrient perspective, that's your kind of primary lens is super powerful, so I think this is good. I guess I would ask you if there's anything I hadn't asked I know there's a million questions I could have asked and what your answer would be if there's something you don't want the listener to take away from this.

Dr. Sarah Ballantyne: 49:41

Well, I guess the big thing that I just want to say is that the learning about nutrients I mean, I've tried to make it as easy as possible with my book, with my website, with my social media, but it's still like it's a really big topic, right, there's people who dedicate their entire scientific careers to iteratively expanding human knowledge on like one tiny little piece of it. Right? So, like professor kevin hall, who has done all these like amazing metabolic board studies to bust the insulin model of obesity right, he's dedicated his entire career to just this tiny little piece and his studies are so important, but it's really just like one little piece of an entire field of science, right so? Just like you wouldn't learn all of physics in a day, you wouldn't learn all of chemistry in a day. Or math in a day, you're not going to learn all all of physics in a day. You wouldn't learn all of chemistry in a day. Or math in a day. You're not going to learn all of nutritional sciences in a day.

Dr. Sarah Ballantyne: 50:31

But I also think that increasing our scientific literacy on nutrition topics is not only our path to understanding how to make those easy additions and simple swaps within our food preferences to increase our nutrient intake. But it's also our path to being able to identify misinformation and like fear-based marketing online, and I know that like not everyone agrees with like my point of view. Now, I've done a lot, a lot, a lot of work, both in like understanding where my food fears came from and where my own susceptibility to diet and nutrition misinformation came from. And then extra, extra, extra research to help like fix those things that I got wrong in my own brain and then be able to like communicate that online. And it's okay if you're like not bought into every piece of that, but the understanding, the science right, like understanding how we like go about designing a study so that we can answer these unanswered questions, understanding where the limits of human knowledge are so that we can understand the importance of new research as it's published, and then understanding that basic these nutrients do this, these foods have this nutrients.

Dr. Sarah Ballantyne: 51:55

That is the pathway not just to food choice without stress, but also the worst parts of diet culture that actually preys on how little the average person actually knows about nutrients and that will make for a much more informed user base, right, who are much less susceptible to predatory marketing. So I invite you to come join me on that. Learning Doesn't all happen all at once, but I've created a lot of resources, like my free weekly newsletter, like all of my social media that tries to put that into bite-sized, like fun little pieces so that it doesn't feel like you're back at school but more like you're just like scrolling the most educational yet entertaining social media feed ever.

Philip Pape: 52:42

Such a positive message and I do love your Instagram feed and your reels like walking through the woods we were talking about. They're great. Such a positive message and I do love your Instagram feed and your reels like walking through the woods we were talking about. They're great. Probably a good way to open up your mind. I do want to defend you in a couple of ways for folks, just so you know kind of my context here. Shout out to Aurora, who's a follower of Sarah's, and she turned me on to Sarah. So shout out to you. I know you listen to the show. But two things I noticed. Sometimes the criticism is about evidence, which is kind of insane, because your book has like 40 something pages of citations and you could just yeah 460 studies mostly systematic reviews.

Dr. Sarah Ballantyne: 53:16

Yeah.

Philip Pape: 53:16

Yeah, and you can individually dive into any one of those, just like I looked at the 2016 study you mentioned today, just to make sure you know is she full of it or is she like yeah, solid, and then the score. You know is she full of it or is she like, yeah, solid and then the score. I know you talk about Nutra score. Yeah, nutravor score. Nutravor score not being like a ranking or a judgment, it's just a formula based on nutrient densities. So folks are aware of that. It's a good way to understand if you're trying to put together multiple nutrients. It's just another reference of you know, density, not like this is better than this. So just to kind of me defending you from your stuff. So my listeners understand the context. All right, you mentioned some of those resources. Where do you want to send folks to to learn more about you?

Dr. Sarah Ballantyne: 53:54

Homebase is Nutrivorcom. That's definitely the place with the most detailed maybe academic articles. That's where you can learn about nutrients, foods and how they impact our health. But from there, make sure to click on the join button in the top right menu, because that will link you both to my free weekly newsletter. Bite-sized information, so very like for the person who doesn't think that reading a 12,000 word article busting every myth about vegetable oil sounds like a fun Saturday afternoon. My feelings are not hurt if that's the case. So Bite Size is information is there. But that's also where you can link to my social media. I'm on Instagram, facebook Threads, pinterest, tiktok and YouTube, and I post different content on each platform. There's some overlap, obviously, but a lot of very specific to this platform stuff as well. So wherever you like to hang out online, come join me, and that's where you can also learn about the benefits of joining my Patreon.

Philip Pape: 54:51

And what's your saltiest platform, like where are you most?

Dr. Sarah Ballantyne: 54:53

controversial, so to speak. Saltiest, I would say, I'm sassiest on TikTok.

Philip Pape: 55:02

Okay, I don't even use that one. But Okay, I don't even use that one.

Dr. Sarah Ballantyne: 55:05

And I would say I'm most responsive on threads, so I'm most like in the comments answering questions on threads. So I would say those are the two places where, like, I really like to hang out online. That's where I spend time engaging with other people's content. So I would say those are probably. If I had to pick two, I'd pick those two.

Philip Pape: 55:25

Okay, and I had reposted something of yours too on mine, so if people go there, they can get to you too. So, all right, thank you so much for coming on. I do wish we had more time. There's a joke about a flat tire I got to deal with today. But thank you so much for your time.

Dr. Sarah Ballantyne: 55:36

Sarah, oh, thank you.

Philip Pape: 55:37

Let's stay in touch you.