Prostate PSA Results and Unnecessary Biopsies (Dr. Stephen Petteruti) | Ep 403

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Are you over 40 and trying to stay muscular, lean, and strong, but PSA tests and prostate fears leave you confused? Worried that one elevated PSA could derail your strength training with an unnecessary biopsy?

In this conversation with men’s health expert Dr. Stephen Petteruti, we break down the truth about PSA testing, hormone health, and what most fitness podcasts get wrong about men’s health and longevity. We talk about why body recomp and lifting weights matter even more as you age, how certain treatments impact testosterone and weight loss, and what proactive steps keep you training hard for decades.

I share how evidence-based fitness shapes my own approach, and Steve gives a grounded perspective on protecting your hormones without sacrificing your physique.

Today, you’ll learn all about:

0:00 – PSA tests and misunderstood prostate risks
4:15 – Why biopsy thresholds are flawed
9:42 – How lifestyle shapes cancer and longevity
14:55 – Understanding atypical dormant cells
18:40 – Repurposed drugs and monitoring protocol
24:10 – Testosterone, muscle, and men’s health
31:42 – High-to-low dosing theory explained
41:20 – Philosophy of vitality over fear
48:05 – Strength training and premeditated nutrition
50:37 – Where to find Dr. Petteruti’s work

Episode resources:

• Intellectual Medicine Podcast. Start with this episode – Think Twice Before Getting a Biopsy

• Website: drstephenpetteruti.com 

• Waitlist for his book “Fighting Cancer Like a Man”

• Instagram: @dr.stephenpetteruti

• YouTube: @intellectualmedicine 

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• Transcript

  Philip Pape: 0:01

  If you're a man over 40 who lifts weights and wants to stay strong for decades, your prostate health might be the most misunderstood risk to your training and hormones. One elevated PSA reading. That's all it takes for most doctors to push you toward a biopsy. And once you're on that conveyor belt, the next step is often treatment that potentially tanks your testosterone and muscle mass. So the question we're answering today is: how do you know when prostate issues require a biopsy? And is there a less intrusive diagnostic path that protects both your prostate and your physique? Today's guest who specializes in men's health and hormones, and he will explain why the standard approach to prostate screening is broken and what you can do about it for your health. You'll discover when elevated PSA actually matters, when biopsies are unnecessary, how common treatments affect muscle and strength, and a proactive protocol to keep you training hard well into your 70s and beyond. Welcome to Wit and Weight, the show that helps you build a strong, healthy physique using evidence, engineering, and efficiency. I'm your host, certified nutrition coach Philip Pape, and today we're discussing prostate health and PSA testing. If you're a man over 40, you may have had a PSA test or been told you should get one. Maybe you've been told your number's high and you need a biopsy right now. But what if that's not the case? What if there's a better, less disruptive diagnostic approach? My guest today is Dr. Steven Petteruti, a board certified family physician and host of the Intellectual Medicine podcast. He has dedicated his practice to men's health, hormone optimization, and smarter approaches to prostate care. He's going to teach you what the PSA numbers really mean, the choice between imaging and biopsy, the effects of various therapies on hormones and muscle, and some steps you can take right now to keep your prostate healthy without sacrificing your health or performance. To be clear, this is not medical advice, but it is information every man listening needs to understand. Dr. Petaruti, Steve, welcome to Wits and Waits. Great, Philip. Thank you for having me. So let's talk about this topic. Um PSA or prostate health and the blood markers that go along with this are confusing. And there's a lot of, I'll say there's misinformation and there's probably a lot of entrenched uh information and advice from generations of healthcare. And I know we need to stay with the times and understand uh for men concerned about cancer, let's say, what is the correlation? What does the science say when it comes to things we're measuring, like PSA results and cancer? Let's start there and then we can go deeper.

  Dr. Stephen Petteruti: 2:43

  It's important to recognize PSA is not a test for cancer. It was never meant to be that. It is a marker that you can follow and its trajectory, its direction can be helpful. But there is no cutoff. All the cutoffs that you read about or that are published are arbitrary and are just kind of throwing a dart at the board. So when they tell men, hey, your PSA is above four and you need a biopsy, that's made up science. There are men with PSAs of 30 are totally fine. So the thing I want your audience to hear loud and clear, you never need a biopsy. I advocate they should never be done. And I'll expand upon that as the conversation unfolds. There's a reason why the PSA is entrenched, and there's a reason why biopsies are recommended. It has more to do, Philip, with historical inertia than keeping up with current technology. If I can give you a quick sweep, maybe that'll illuminate a bit, right? So in the 1980s, there was no PSA, there was no MRI, there was strictly the digital rectal exam where the doc would say, well, it feels a little abnormal. I think you need a biopsy. So now we've established the biopsy as a standard. The biopsy leads to a diagnosis of prostate cancer in some cases, and then they jump to a prostatectomy, removing the gland. I mean, it seems logical. Intuitively, it makes sense. Cancer is in the gland, you take the gland out, I no longer have cancer. Would that it were that simple. Now we know there are several studies that have shown us that taking out the gland doesn't protect you from cancer. I know that sounds weird, but that's what the data shows. So you can get the gland removed, men, you suffer all that adverse consequence, and then here comes the cancer again. What's going on? Why? And this is philosophy that drives it. It's a lot having to do with what you've dedicated your own profession to, right? Live life robustly, guys. Live vitally. Don't do things that suck the energy out of you unless there's a compelling benefit. So 1980s biopsies. Then in the 1990s, a PSA comes on the scene. And really nobody knew what could quite what to do with it. You know, does this predict cancer? Does it correlate? For a while, it was not even advised to be done. So the United States Preventative Task Force at one point said, hey, don't bother doing it. Then they came about. The urology community, and I am a family physician, so my perspective comes from the outside looking in. And the urological community said, Hey, you can't do that. Men need this PSA test. So it went back in the hopper. Well, if there's a test, there's got to be a threshold, and the threshold was arbitrarily created. Thus, we have a PSA threshold. Now we have biopsies that are still there. Instead, we've got an MRI. You have an elevated uh PSA. You're nervous about it. An MRI can be performed, looks at the anatomy. It's kind of like a mammogram for a man's prostate. It gauges risk. Nice study, not carved in stone. It is uncommon to have a completely normal MRI past the age of 50. True. Usually a nodule, there's gonna be something in there, guys. Here's another thing that'll help frame the conversation. If you arbitrarily biopsied 100 men off the street over the age of 50, just biopsied everybody. Half of them would have prostate cancer cells. Here's another variable that you need to reflect upon, guys. In men over 90, they did cadaveric studies looking at people who died of other causes. The majority of them had prostate cancer cells buried in the gland. Now that tells us, Philip, that at some point, if we live long enough, we may, we probably will develop cancer cells within the gland. It doesn't mean you need to go digging them out. When you stick a needle into cancer, you disrupt it. There's a capsule around the prostate. It's like the rind on an orange. And it contains the tissue. It also contains cancer within the capsule. If it stays in the capsule, it'll never hurt you. So I have a philosophy of, you know, think twice. If a urologist tells you you need a biopsy, take a deep breath, get another opinion. The problem, of course, Philip, is they're all reading off the same sheet of music.

  Philip Pape: 7:21

  Yeah.

  Dr. Stephen Petteruti: 7:22

  So for men with an elevated PSA, it's a it's a horrible dilemma. They're told that this could be cancer, the biopsy is needed to make the diagnosis. Both of those are not fully true statements. You can look at things sequentially. So the best use of a PSA, whenever you get it, that's your base number. So if you had a PSA tomorrow, Philip, and it came in at six, the doctors are going to have kittens. You take a deep breath, say, okay, let's check it again in three months. Now the PSA will vary. If you went on a long bike ride, if you had sex, if you did a heavy workout, it's going to bump up.

  Philip Pape: 8:00

  Because it's a protein, right? It's the antigen we're we're measuring from the gland. Correct. Like we didn't even define what it was exactly, but just that's why it could vary. Yeah, okay.

  Dr. Stephen Petteruti: 8:08

  That's correct. The prostate-specific antigen is found almost exclusively in the prostate gland. And when you squeeze it, you ooze out more of it. So monitoring it over time can be valuable and helpful and can give men an opportunity to avoid unnecessary interventions.

  Philip Pape: 8:28

  Yeah. So okay, I'm glad you established all that. That's why I wanted to have you on here because a common theme with a lot of areas of our health and women's health too, because I we have a lot of women in our audience, we talk hormones as well, is that some study or intervention or individual in the healthcare industry, like you said, in the 80s, did something and uh made a logical conclusion that there was fallacies in that chain of logic, even though it looks like it's causal. And then it led to, you know, going into uh texts, medical texts and going into studies. And we've had studies that have completely changed health outcomes for the negative as a result. Like the women's health initiative we talk about has made all women afraid of hormone therapy when they shouldn't be, right? So with men, I'm we're I'm kind of hearing a similar theme. And then when you go to the doctor, you're trusting this man, this person, man or woman to be the expert, right? And of course, many of them act like they know it too, uh, but that's a separate issue in healthcare. Um, the idea that you could actually be causing harm with a biopsy is probably a surprise to many because when you said you may not, you actually don't need a biopsy ever, like that's a very definitive statement versus let's say in women's health where you're like, well, you shouldn't, you don't necessarily need a mammogram or necessarily need this or that because it leads to more anxiety and issues for people that are low risk. You're saying definitively, maybe we should never have a biopsy because of that harm of the intervention past the sheath that then disturbs the cancer cells. Is that the idea here?

  Dr. Stephen Petteruti: 10:02

  That is my that is my approach. But look, put in the context, Philip, of philosophy. Every man has to decide their comfort level. You know, my philosophy, Philip, is we fight cancer like a man. We do not sacrifice our masculine vitality out of some false pursuit of comfort and longevity. Those two are a false choice. So when a man sees the urologist, it can be compelling. When they look him in the eye and say, you could have cancer, you need a biopsy. Totally disagree with the with the emphasis here, right? It's an option. It's not wrong to get one. You have to go into it with your eyes wide open. The biopsy, you should men, you should always reflect upon the consequence of any test before it's done. If the biopsy is done and if it shows cancer, what are you going to do next? You're going to let them take out your prostate gland? Again, that's not a wrong decision. It's one I would never do, and I don't recommend. Why? Because the studies have validated there are two studies in the literature, one called the Protect T, the other one called the Pivot Trial. And they looked at men with prostate cancer. And one group they had the gland removed, the other group did nothing. One study had a third group that had radiation. Followed them out for 20 years. And at the end of 20 years, they found that there was no difference in the death rate between the groups. And there was no difference in the death rate from prostate cancer. That's very sobering. Yeah. 40% of the men who get their prostate gland removed end up with a relapse. Now, this is where it starts the dominoes, the downward spiral. Man gets his prostate out. This is a common scenario. I felt great. I went in for my exam, my PSA was elevated, they did a biopsy, it showed cancer. I felt great. It took out my gland. Now I'm wearing pads every day. My erection's never been the same. I don't feel right. They robbed a vital part of me. Then the PSA starts to rise. And this is something I fully disagree with. They call it a biochemical recurrence. You feel great, you have no evidence of metastatic disease, but the PSA number is creeping up. What do they do next? They castrate you, they cut off your testosterone. Oh my goodness, what a horrible thing to do. Take away your life energy, the brain gets weak, depression happens, you develop gynecomastia, man boobs, your muscles wither. It's a horrible thing to do to a human being. And then the prostate cancer, when you go on testosterone blocking therapy because of a rising PSA, it's not curative. The cancer, 100% of the time, is going to progress. So you put all these facts together, Philip, and you're starting to wonder what are we doing? Yeah. You have to start with how you want to live, men. What's your philosophy? Because at some point we're going to die. And when we die, if it's a prostate cancer, a heart attack, or something else, I advocate for what I call a horizontal lifestyle, right? You do things to maintain vitality. Yes, you lift weights or strength train. Gotta do it. You should never wither. There's nothing biologically about us that requires us to wither before we die. So I want you, me, and all your listeners to die in great health after a short illness at a very advanced age. It's like, hey, where's Dr. Petrudy? No, you didn't hear, man, he died last night. Oh, crap. Just saw him yesterday. He just croaked.

  Philip Pape: 13:45

  Yeah, I always joke, I want to croak doing a deadlift when I'm, you know, 95 or whatever. Uh, I I literally just recorded an episode called something like, you know, why now is the perfect time to start building muscle. It targeted more at the narrative that you're too old, you know, too old to start. But I totally agree. And our listeners would agree with that. And I want to get to the lifestyle piece, which again will be not really a debate on this show at all. We're all going to agree with that piece of it. What I'm trying to understand here, though, is this chain of events, because I'm learning a ton already. The idea that taking out the gland doesn't remove the cancer right there sets, you know, puts a massive roadblock in the logic of, okay, then you've got the PSA results, which have to be based on your personal baseline. If, let's say, your PSA goes high versus your baseline and there are cancer cells, then we have to think, okay, well, you said every man gets cancer cells anyway over time. I mean, DNA mutates and gets damaged, and everything we do and consume and are exposed to over our lifetime probably causes lots of cancer cells across our body in all areas. So you're gonna get that anyway. So then when does it matter? When do the PSA results matter? And then when does the fact that you have cancer in your prostate matter? And then what do you do about it, if anything? That's I think the next question.

  Dr. Stephen Petteruti: 15:00

  Yeah, it's a it's an important question, Philip. And I like to designate these cells as atypical dormant cells.

  Philip Pape: 15:05

  Okay.

  Dr. Stephen Petteruti: 15:06

  They're kind of sleeping in the prostate, you let them be. And there are things that can be done. This is a chronic lifestyle management. And we talked before about is it okay to get a biopsy? Is it okay to remove the gland? Although I would never do it, and I don't advocate my patients to do it. It is okay if you're the type of person who can't live with the notion that these cells are in your body. And some men are like that, you know, they'll just drive nuts. The uncertainty factor is there no matter what path is is pursued. So the things that keep them, our job, like why do we not all have cancer? Our immune system, it's killing cancer cells every day. So if those cells are within that capsule, the job is to keep them there. Cancer is like an opportunistic disease, it's there lurking. It's kind of like shingles. That's a good analogy. When we were kids, we had chicken pox and then it went away. It's asleep. Why does it come out later? It never actually went away. We never actually killed all the virus, it's just kept in check by the immune system until the immune system weakens to the point where it becomes manifest. Same with cancer cells. If you've ever had cancer, you are never cancer free, you're tumor-free, the cells are lurking. I don't want to creep people out, but we all have them. So that's why you live every day in a balanced, healthy manner, maintaining immune function. What ruins the immune system? You don't sleep right. That's one. You're on certain drugs that can weaken it, steroids, for instance. Now, um, disease-modifying drugs are quite popular. The biologic agents for psoriatic arthritis and other conditions, they can be life-enhancing, but immune immunologically weakening. A bad diet, stress, these are all variables. Uh, an acute phase of your life, a spouse dies, you go through bankruptcy. These are opportunistic moments where you need to amp up your own vitality pathway. Exercise is really helpful, but you have to be tempered. I like your philosophy, Philip, of being, hey, you can achieve all you need to achieve without going crazy and spending three hours in the gym. There's a tipping point where too much, too intense, can weaken the immune system. So you have these cancer cells that are isolated within the gland. You don't need to biopsy them. You do your PSA level periodically. And my I've developed a protocol to help men avoid the biopsy and take another path. And in my protocol, we do a PSA every three months monitoring levels. We do an MRI typically once a year to look at the anatomy. We use repurposed drugs, and these are prescription agents that have been shown to have anti-cancer power and attributes, even though they're FD approved for other reasons. Many of your listeners may be familiar with ivermectin, uh, fenbendazole, mobendazole. They have merit, guys, but be careful. The online pathways are harmful. These drugs are not meant for daily consumption. So in my protocol, we use them sporadically to emphasize safety. You don't cure prostate cancer by dying of liver failure, right? That's not a good outcome. So the repurposed drugs are put in there. How about lifestyle? Most important variable regarding nutrition, percent body fat. Excess adiposity correlates with increased risk of cancer and cancer relapse. That is settled science, unequivocal. How you get there, whether you're a vegetarian, a carnivore, uh organic eater or not, how you get there is less important than that you get there. Now, there are clearly foods better than others. And when I say food, Philip, I mean food, not junk disguised as food, right? So thoughtful diet, stress reduction. If you're inclined, repurpose drugs guided by a physician, you don't want to fly on the on the internet. This needs to be monitored. Certain supplements can have merit. I like alpha lopoic acid. I like zinc, about 30 milligrams a day. It concentrates in the prostate gland more uh zinc per gram of tissue than any other organ. It also supports immune function.

  Philip Pape: 19:37

  Is that zinc with copper or just zinc?

  Dr. Stephen Petteruti: 19:40

  No, I don't like copper. Okay. All right, all right. Because you mentioned it. Copper is an essential um mineral, it's an essential metal. But there are two kinds of copper. There's cupric and cuprus. Cupras is what we find in food. That's great for you. Cashews, almonds, dark chocolate, etamame, you can find it in your food. The problem with supplements, Philip, is they often use cupric or C2, which is a neurotoxin. In fact, in Japan, they don't allow you to have copper pipes in your house because of the risk to the brain. So I see this frequently. I don't like any supplement with copper in it. I keep cashews. It's not good to know every day, just because the copper is so good for well, immune and skin and all that other cool stuff. But um, yeah, zinc I like, alpha poric acid, and then N acetylcysteine or NAC, which is a precursor to glutathione. As we age, you know, we make fewer uh antioxidants, free radicals tend to become more dominant, and that inflammatory tilt can increase risk uh, you know, kind of across the board. So if you're a man listening to this and you've had a biopsy, don't panic. You can't undo the past. However, going forward, contemplate an alternative. There's something out there called active surveillance, it's a term that is used when they feel your type of cancer is early and therefore they don't want to subject you to the trauma of prostatectomy. And what they'll offer is sequential biopsies staggered, right? This is patently illogical, in my view. You know you have cancer, and now you're gonna stick, not and it's not just a little needle, it's a trocar, and it's multiple jabs. It hurts. I've listened to men who have had complications from the biopsy, hospitalizations due to sepsis, or loss of erectile function or compromise thereof can occur. You stick in these big trochars. But most importantly, it's a false notion to think that you can take a snapshot of the prostate in one moment in time and predict the future. And I've heard that said they'll tell they'll tell you, well, we need to do a biopsy so we can tell how aggressive your cancer is, or how aggressive it may be. That's not true. You tell aggression by a point of change. Your PSA was six, and now it's 25. That's a manifestation of aggression. What should you do then? Right? I just told you, don't take the gland out. Worse than that is irradiating the pelvis. That's a terrible thing to do that causes immediate adverse effect and delayed consequence. Five years later, you ever get a sunburn, you feel rotten, right? It hurts. And then 10 years later, you have basal cell cancer from that sunburn. Radiation has a delayed negative consequence that ends up with radiation proctitis. You can't control your stool. I've seen men 10 years later literally leaking poop all day long. It's horrible. For what? You know, so this leaves a this is it's a problem, it's an unsolved problem. My um departure from conventional recommendations is not that the pathway I've uh espoused is proven beneficial. We are still actively studying it. It has evidence of benefit, it doesn't have proof, but it has proof of not harming people. Conversely, conventional therapies, prostatectomy, radiation, absolute 100% unequivocal harm. Benefit? So I've heard my patients will say, Well, the urologist told me that there's no proof that sticking a trocar in my prostate can spread cancer. Technically, it's an accurate statement. However, they never looked. There's never been a study to see if that's the case. But there are, because I did this research recently, Philip, over 95 articles in the medical literature looking at what's called needle tract metastases. This is a known risk that we have to balance against the potential benefit. So it's a hard space to live in. It's worthy of being slow. It's never, almost never an emergency. Prostate cancer, even if you have it, guys, it's a slow-moving train. So you have time to really think through it. And depending on your age and depending on your global health, it will help you direct your action. If you're 75 and you've had three heart attacks, you know, prostate cancer is not going to take you out. Ironically, getting a prostatectomy and having aggressive treatment is correlated with increased risk of heart disease, dementia, um, other side effects. I do want to mention the testosterone link too, Phillips. So let me know.

  Philip Pape: 24:43

  We'll get to it. So I'm listening because I'm learning so much here. And the protocol you mentioned obviously doesn't sound uh super unconventional when it comes to general advice for any age-related disease or being healthy and living a long life. In other words, lifestyle and strength training and eating well, supplementation. Obviously, the repurposed drugs are kind of a unique thing that we could get into. But you mentioned just cancer in general. I I percent body fat, I believe, is linked to at least 13 cancers, something like that. I forget the magic number, definitively through studies so far. And, you know, some people don't like to say that out loud that you have this massive choice in the matter through your lifestyle to potentially stave off cancer, but it's true, right? So the PSA and MRI, what I'm trying to understand here is where's the preventive piece of this? And where's the, oh, now we think there's some cancer that could develop into something concerning. Is this something you start once you get a diagnosis? Or is this, I mean, lifestyle you're going to do anyway, guys. I mean, anybody listening should be doing those things. But like the protocol you talked about, when when does that begin?

  Dr. Stephen Petteruti: 25:58

  That that's a great perspective, Philip. The protocol really starts with you, with this, what you advocate for people, right? You live a low tox lifestyle. You don't wait to get sick. We're all aging. My wife said to me once, hey, if if you knew you were dying, would you regret anything? And she mentioned it because I'm a I do a lot of advanced anti-aging in my practice. I'm on testosterone, I do some peptides, I you know, I take Cirrellimus, an anti-aging drug. I thought I said, Yeah, no, no, I'm not going to be the guy that clutches his chest, go into the ground, says, Oh, I should have walked and exercised, or you know, the end comes. What I want for everybody listening is to have peace of mind. When you do all the things you're talking about, Philip, you control percent body fat, a powerful risk factor for cancer, for heart disease, and guess what, gang? Dementia. You know, yeah. I want all the things that are it correlates it. There was a study showing the accelerated brain atrophy in the context of excess adiposity. So you start there and you start with taking charge of your nutritional health and really got to peel away from uh the average American sort of pattern. If you're eating like every other American, that's problematic. If you if other people look at you and say, you're kind of, you know, your nutrition is kind of weird, you're probably closer to a good place.

  Philip Pape: 27:26

  Yes, I like that perspective for sure. If you're weird with most things in life, you're probably doing the right thing.

  Dr. Stephen Petteruti: 27:31

  Probably in a good place. You know, we call that eating abnormal, yeah, but healthy. So yeah, percent body fat's critical. Now, if you're in that position where you've got that high PSA, you have the MRI. Now, the MRI is gauged on something called a pyrad scale, one to five. And it's a subjective look at the anatomy, and the radiologist will say, Yeah, this one looks like cancer, this one might be cancer. It goes one to five. Five means, yeah, you probably got cancer. You got a PSA of let's say it's 12. You get an MRI. It's a pyridge of five, but it's confined to the capsule. No evidence of disease outside of the capsule, the lymph nodes, seminal vesicle. You feel good. That is not a panic moment, folks. It's an opportune moment. The idea behind the repurposed drugs and the amplified lifestyle. Now, this grabs people's attention, Philip. You know, now they're really motivated. They're going to lose weight, they're going to start eating differently. They're really researching this. One of the problems that men and women run into, and you probably noticed this yourself, Philip. You go to the internet, it's a blizzard of information. And then they go to their doctor and ask the doctor, what supplements it look, I'm a board certified family doctor, as you mentioned. I was trained uh osteopathic medical school. I was in the army, did my residency, and I've been in practice for 30 years. 20 years ago, if somebody asked me about supplements, my eyes would have glazed over. Like, what? I know nothing. And doctors usually are limited in their knowledge in the space. So that leaves you know patients kind of on their own in many cases. But there is a growing cohort of physicians, of advisors that can help guide, not something they want to do on their own, right? So the repurposed drugs in my protocol, I really like this approach. It's proactive, it has evidence of potential benefit, and it has this safety feature of not causing harm. So we're applying about six different pharmacologic agents in modest dosing. Technical term for this is called hormetic, which means drugs have different effects at different doses. So that which may seem kind of weird to apply can actually be helpful. We're trying to create an environment in the body that is inhospitable toward cancer cells. You got that pyrides of. Five. It's isolated to the capsule. Now we're going to watch that PSA. It is go 12, 13, 14, 13 again. That's a plateau you can live with. If it goes 12, 45, that grabs our attention. Now we maybe look at that MRI again and maybe modify the treatment, but you never jump the gun. There's no need to put needles in. I tell a man that has that scenario I just described to you, Philip, I'll say, look, you got prostate cancer. The lining up of the PSA in the MRI, in your age, and in some cases your symptoms, are so compelling that even if you had a biopsy and it came back negative, nobody would believe it.

  Philip Pape: 30:44

  There's no point, is what you're saying, yeah, to the biopsy.

  Dr. Stephen Petteruti: 30:46

  Yep. So don't subject yourself to a study that is academic, historical, and petrified in the standard of care. Look, docs are good people, but they're human beings. What do I mean? They're worried about liability, they have time pressure. You see a urologist, I've heard this often, you know, go see a urologist, my PSA is elevated. It says, okay, when do you want to do your biopsy? Surgeons, folks, they get paid to do things. They don't get paid to talk. And if you want to sit and chat about your PSA with your urologist for 30 minutes, it's unlikely to happen. So you really owe it to yourself to step away, get out of the uh sort of the vortex of intensity, give yourself time to decompress and think a little bit. There are exciting new things happening in the field of intervening for prostate cancer, one of which is actually giving men with prostate cancer testosterone.

  Philip Pape: 31:46

  Okay. Yeah. I I want to talk about that next. One quick thing is alcohol. I just want to touch on alcohol real quick. Um, because there was this, you know, the alcohol um cancer study that was supposed to come out, came out in 2022. The Surgeon General wanted labels on alcohol. And then I believe uh the dietary guidelines were going to be updated to suggest one drink a day instead of two drinks a day can start to cause issues. And I know certain cancers like colorectal and breast cancer have a link to very low consumption of alcohol. Where does prostate cancer fit in on that spectrum?

  Dr. Stephen Petteruti: 32:22

  I laugh because it reminds me of Frank Sinatra's famous quote. He said, you know, those of us who drink feel bad for those of you who don't, because when you wake up in the morning, that's as good as you're going to feel all day long. But to answer your question, these are all um observational studies. The real answer is nobody knows. My dad was a physician. He used to joke the definition of too much alcohol is anybody who drinks more than their doctor. But in all seriousness, alcohol is a toxin. Lots of things are toxins, but they're pleasurable toxins. We call that a hedonistic path. We human beings, we do two things without fail. We avoid pain and we seek pleasure. Avoid pain means don't die, seek pleasure means reproduce. So modifying limiting alcohol is logical, it's good health, it's good psychosocially. You go beyond two drinks, bad things are gonna happen. Not in the future, but that night and the next morning. So that's self-evident. But the idea that alcohol itself is a pure toxin to be avoided at all cost is an exaggeration. Some folks like to end their day with a glass of wine. There's no evidence of compelling harm. If you're deprived, so we talked a moment ago about stress. Stress can occur from a deprivation of pleasurable endeavors. And I've seen like I'll people ask me about nutrition. And sometimes when a man gets this diagnosis, his wife or partner becomes very engaged, says, You have to drink this concoction. And the guy's choking it down. Oh, this is awful. It's not good for you then. It's a stress moment. So where I come down on alcohol is um when you go above one drink per day, you're entering a gray zone. When you go above two drinks per day, you are in a harm zone fairly unequivoc inequivocally, unequivocally, without doubt.

  Philip Pape: 34:25

  Yeah.

  Dr. Stephen Petteruti: 34:26

  So that helps frame it out. Um, but when my patients come to me and say, should I go alcohol free? You can if you want, but you don't have to. You know, you have to live life.

  Philip Pape: 34:38

  It's a matter of degrees, yes. Yeah. Okay. Yeah, I just wanted to touch on that. All right, let's get into testosterone. So you said uh TRT could be a game changer here, could be the, you know, one of the things we're not talking about, and we're going to right now uh in context of prostate health. So lay it on us.

  Dr. Stephen Petteruti: 34:54

  Yeah. Well, let's talk about the settled science first, right? Testosterone does not increase your prostate cancer risk. That likely has been emphasized in the past, and that is pretty solid. And testosterone is not gas on the fire either. So historically, we've been taught, and this goes back to Dr. Huggins in the 1940s. He won a Nobel Prize when his experiments correlated testosterone deprivation with regression of prostate cancer. Since the 1940s, that has been sort of the dogma. You know, testosterone equals prostate cancer. It does not increase risk. In fact, men with low testosterone levels have a higher risk of developing prostate cancer than those with higher. That doesn't mean that going on replacement therapy and elevating your level will make you less likely to get it. That's an unknown. But it is pretty solid evidence that it won't harm you. So those of you that are on testosterone, you ought not to fear it with regard to your prostate health. And you ought not to fear it with regard to prostatic hypertrophy. That also doesn't correlate. It also does not correlate, and this is pretty settled science, Philip. It does not increase cardiovascular risk. So those studies were very comforting to those of us who have been on testosterone for about 20 years, uh, those of us that are using it to benefit, so you can maintain that. The research and the science about testosterone in the face of prostate cancer is rapidly evolving. And this idea that you can never be on testosterone is being challenged. Dr. Abraham Morgenthaler, in his book, Testosterone for Life, he is uh a urologist, a real uh thought leader in this field. And he has uh something called a prostate saturation theory. In essence, your prostate can only hold so much testosterone, and any extra testosterone will give value to the organs, the tissue, the brain, right? We all know testosterone is a neurotransmitter, but it doesn't adversely affect the gland, which is now sort of maxed out. It's like a full cup of water, you keep pouring water in it, you're not gonna get any more in there. There are studies that show that when you go from a high level of testosterone to a low level, that it disrupts the DNA of prostate cancer cells. And that's called the bipolar theory of testosterone's effect on prostate cancer. Now, I want to be clear, this is not standard of care, and there are circumstances where it should never be considered. If you have prostate cancer metastatic to the bone, that has to be controlled before anybody contemplates this. It is a consideration with eyes wide open when you make judgments about philosophy, quality of life, and your willingness to consider risk, simply put. So I'll give you an example from my practice. Gentleman had prostate cancer, you know, before I met him. He actually flew to Europe, had a high food procedure, high intensity focal ultrasound. Doesn't work. I don't like it. He came back and uh had still a prostate cancer. At the time it was diagnosed, he was on testosterone and he suspended its use. And he felt awful. His sex drive went away. His brain wasn't working well. He's an executive and he had trouble functioning in his job. His PSA is 45. He has prostate cancer. And he said, Doc, you gotta put me back on testosterone. This is no way for me to live. So I said, Okay, you know, this is science says that this is not irrational. The science says that this is reasonable to consider, but it is also an unknown quantity. It's possible that the testosterone could accelerate the cancer. And it's likely at his stage, or the stage at which this cancer is for many people, it's likely the cancer will progress regardless of what you do. This comes to that, right? The philosophy of regret. My patient goes on testosterone, he feels great, but five years later the cancer is metastatic to the bone. That could happen. He has to be comfortable with that decision looking back, knowing that he's he's at peace because he had this great window of time with it. On the other hand, he doesn't do testosterone, he continues to feel lousy, and in five years he gets metastatic disease to the bone. He's saying, What did I just I could have, I should have. So the individual has to reflect upon it philosophically, and then what I will do in some cases is a modified approach to this. You go three months high, and here's the irony. If I do this for men, you can't dabble, you can't go low dose testosterone, you have to go high dose because the delta, the high to low shift is where we think the benefit may be. So you go a period with high dose, and then boom, you pull it out. High, low. We're trying really to balance risk and benefit. You know, is this gonna harm you to put you on testosterone? We know the benefit is there, but what about the harm? It's preliminary, and I'm still tracking these cases, Philip, but thus far I've got a cluster of men doing this type of an approach. And what I'm bearing witness to is stability. I'm not seeing PSAs go through the roof. I'm not seeing um, you know, the cancer go on haywire. Um, there's an alpha patient, one of my pioneers, he had a PSA of about 10. He had a pyridge of four, meaning, hey, it's likely cancer. He was on testosterone. He said, Look, I don't want a biopsy, but I do not want to come off my testosterone. I said, Okay, we're gonna do this bipolar, we're gonna monitor things closely. 2018, PSA of 10, pyrides of four. 2025, a PSA of 10, a pyrides of four while on testosterone. Now, granted, it's a singular case, but this is how new evidence builds, and this is how we acquire insight into other ways we may be able to approach this problem. So out of the mainstream of treatment is an option for some men that are so inclined. It really comes down to your philosophy. And I want to emphasize, guys, it's not wrong to do the conventional pathway. The problem I have with the conventional pathway, Philip, is the monopolistic sort of one-note piano approach that I see.

  Philip Pape: 41:39

  Like this is the only way. Yeah. Are there any controlled trials doing what you're talking about, or or at least planning to observationally look at men who've gone through this?

  Dr. Stephen Petteruti: 41:48

  Well, there are actually there are. So they're not actually in the cohort that I'm discussing. The bipolar uh research is um Johns Hopkins did this. They uh applied this to men who had prostate cancer, had the gland removed, had the PSA go down, and then come back up again, at which point they put them on androgen deprivation therapy, castration.

  Philip Pape: 42:14

  AD2, okay.

  Dr. Stephen Petteruti: 42:15

  When a man starts castration therapy, androgen deprivation, 100% as I mentioned, it will advance. When it advances, that's called castration resistant prostate cancer. Basically, that's the end of the road. There's no treatment left that has been shown to have merit. So they took these men with a theory of bipolar testosterone and they, hey, let's try this. They put them on high dose testosterone and they would go high to low. It was an interesting combination of testosterone. They'd go 400 milligram injection at the beginning of the month while they had them on androgen deprivation, so that they would go from this high level bang down low. And a significant number of them responded favorably. The PSAs went down. In some cases, the sensitivity toward androgen deprivation treatment was renewed. So it's compelling, some evidence of the theory playing itself out, but there is nothing that I'm aware of that's in the pipeline that looks at men that are not castration resistant, which may be a better place to apply it earlier in the course. So it's incumbent upon me and doctors like me to counsel patients honestly and to track the results. And that's what we're doing at Intellectual Medicine. It's an observational cohort. And all the men that enroll in this protocol, we track them and we're looking at PSAs, we're looking at the MRI, we're looking at the metastatic rate. It'll be some time yet, but we'll have that data and hopefully that'll be widely publicized and give people an opportunity to see does this have uh value? If the if the results look good, that type of result may then instigate a study. The type of study you're talking about would take you know tens of millions and need some evidence to help launch it.

  Philip Pape: 44:09

  Well, I appreciate the nuance. Seriously, I the language you're using today is is something I very much appreciate with caution on on drawing conclusions, which is what we need to do, right? It's a about falsification of what is claimed to be true, not proving something necessarily beyond a shadow of a doubt. I do the androgen deprivation therapy. I'm not too um familiar with it. I know it lowers, does it lower testosterone specifically? Yes. And then you're saying, like, why would people be doing that and then add in testosterone? Help me understand this.

  Dr. Stephen Petteruti: 44:40

  It's it's a it's a cruel thing to do to any man. You know, this is just so um it's called in the conventional medicine, they'll sometimes refer to this as androgen annihilation. They will crush testosterone as low as they can make it go with multiple drugs. So there are drugs that will prevent the body from making testosterone. There are drugs that will block the receptor sites of the testosterone, and often will combine these drugs to get a more thorough crushing of testosterone level. The theory behind that is that it will help men live longer. That theory is not strongly validated. The research on this is very hard to do. There are some studies, and I've read most of them. The conclusions are hard because the patients are so different. Do they have metastatic to the bone? Is it isolated to the pelvis? You know, what was their testosterone? So the consensus is that, hey, if we do this, they might live longer at the back end. But would they want to? Are they gonna, is that life gonna be one worth living? You know, it's an easy thing to measure. So there are studies that can show statistically significant increased uh survival when some of these modalities are applied. When I say statistically significant, it doesn't necessarily mean it's clinically relevant to that person. There's a study called the tax trial. They looked at chemotherapy. The conclusion was statistically significant extension of lifespan compared to placebo. This was back in 2003. When you read the study, the actual extension of life was measured in weeks. It's not like you got another five years. So you got to go beyond the headline, kind of like the women's health initiative, right? People read abstracts and then they just draw a conclusion in some cases. And then you have to go beyond even the conclusion. If you live another, I don't know, on average, if it's another 12 months, but you're gonna feel like blah, is that worth it to you? Uh you're willing to kind of make that deal. It's not wrong, but it's something that is optional. Studies that look at strictly longevity, I think they missed the point. You know, Philip, we're talking about vitality, about living great. And um that's what I advocate for all my patients. I don't want to see my patients wither ever. You know, this idea of like shuffling around with a walker, God bless those people for their pluck and their their uh sort of grit. But I don't want to be one of them. You start now like you are, you know, exercise, nutrition. At the right time in life, you add hormones. Everybody should have hormones. The only question is at what age is when, yeah. And then you live boldly, and when the end comes, it comes. I don't know.

  Philip Pape: 47:44

  Yeah. No, I hear you. I so I'm turning 45 in a couple days. And uh I didn't I didn't really get into this lifestyle until I was up almost 40. And I I joke, or maybe not joke, I'm pretty serious about it that every year older I want to get a year younger. So I told my girls I'm turning 35 tomorrow, and by the time I'm 50, I'll be 30. And then from that point, I'm like, I don't know if I can get to be a 20-year-old again, but at least I've set things back to a better baseline. But uh just to end on a positive note here, then when we think of all the things people can be doing and should be doing, which they should be anyway, probably. What's the biggest hitter here? It is it lifting weights? Is it, you know, the the maintaining healthy body weight? Yeah. I mean, just just to give people thought of prior prioritization if they're not doing that today.

  Dr. Stephen Petteruti: 48:28

  Totally. So if you're into the lifestyle, Philip, that you and I espouse, that's how we define health, then yeah, uh percent body fat, right? You want to eat premeditated nutrition. You do not eat based on hunger, you eat when it's time to eat. You're fueling the machine. I don't like fasting for my patients, you're gonna shrink muscle. So I eat every three hours, whether or not I feel hunger, because that's what fuels muscle. You know, I'm 66 now. By the way, happy birthday. That's it's secret. Um, so you do that. And if you only have 20 minutes to exercise, skip the treadmill and lift weights. That's my clinical recommendation. The practical application is people ask me often, what exercise should I do? And the answer is do the thing that you like. If you hate lifting weights, you don't have to do it. But if you're asking me which one has more evidence of benefit regarding vitality, longevity, bone density, brain health, it's strength training.

  Philip Pape: 49:28

  Yep. Yeah, no, that's great. And it's funny because I I I hear that all the time about I don't like lifting weights. My goal is always to get someone to which type of lifting weights will you like? That that's like my inevitable conclusion for them. That's just me. Yeah, but I like I like your premeditated nutrition concept for sure, which is planning, being intentional. You know, it's it's not a whim or hedonism. It's like we have goals, people, and and it's you're gonna feel great anyway, much greater for the rest of your life than you will by satisfying some short-term pleasure. So and that's what it is about you know, being a man and uh going out there and being the best you can be. You remember uh Jack Lelane? Yeah, yeah.

  Dr. Stephen Petteruti: 50:06

  Yeah, he was once asked, you know, how do you learn to love exercise? And he said, I don't. He said, I love the result. And that's another way to look at it.

  Philip Pape: 50:14

  Exactly.

  Dr. Stephen Petteruti: 50:15

  You lift weights so that you can lift your grandkids up, you lift weights so you can carry the groceries up the stairs. You do not buy that ranch and get off of the stairs because you're anticipating withering. You boldly go after it.

  Philip Pape: 50:29

  Boldly go after it. All right. So, with that, Steve, um, where can folks find you? Because I want to send them your way.

  Dr. Stephen Petteruti: 50:36

  No, thank you. It's the intellectual medicine podcast to be a great place to connect with me. I keep updates on prostate health, the protocol. And by probably next month, my book, uh Fighting Cancer Like a Man will be coming out. It describes the research I've done, the history of prostate cancer, why we're stuck where we are, and what my alternatives look like so that people can have this available to them. That'll all be coming out very soon.

  Philip Pape: 51:06

  Okay, might when when this episode comes out, it might be out. So we'll see. We'll include the podcast, we'll include fighting cancer like a man. I love that title, and I'm gonna be checking that out myself. Uh, Dr. Petteruti, thank you so much for taking the time and teaching us a whole lot of very important things about health, prostate cancer, being a man, uh, lifting weights, all of it. Thank you so much for coming on Wits and Weights.

  Dr. Stephen Petteruti: 51:27

  Thanks, Philip. I really enjoyed it.

Calorie Counting vs. Pattern Analysis for Fat Loss and Muscle Building Over 40 | Ep 402

Download Fitness Lab (live now for iPhone!) – Get AI-powered nutrition analysis, daily guidance, and adaptive strength training that responds to your biofeedback. Like a physique coach in your pocket.

Built for adults over 40 who want sustainable fat loss and muscle building without guesswork. Get 20% off through Black Friday at http://witsandweights.com/app

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We compare traditional calorie and macro tracking with a pattern-based approach that uses eating behaviors, biofeedback, and trends to drive fat loss and muscle gain over 40.

What if cutting-edge AI nutrition and physique coaching could analyze your eating patterns, correlate them with your body's response, and provide a high level of awareness without logging every meal? 

Learn how Fitness Lab is the #1 (and only) app that can spot correlations across sleep, stress, meals, and training to give precise daily coaching, especially for midlife adults dealing with issues like hormones and recovery.

This approach requires less mental energy so you don’t fall off track, while teaching you how to "level up" your system to get and maintain results for life. 

Episode Resources

• Download Fitness Lab AI-powered coaching, 20% off through Black Friday: http://witsandweights.com/app

Timestamps

0:00 - Why tracking calories and macros works (to a point) for fat loss and muscle building
6:45 - Pattern-based nutrition coaching explained
9:50 - The 5 metrics that replace calorie counting for body composition
13:46 - How to track eating behaviors, meal patterns, and biofeedback
18:56 - Building nutritional literacy whether or not you're logging food
22:31 - 4 foundations required for pattern analysis success over 40
25:41 - Protein awareness without counting every gram
29:36 - Daily consistency and minimum viable tracking habits
33:56 - Using feedback vs. hitting calorie targets
37:06 - When to use calorie tracking vs. pattern analysis (or both)
40:41 - How AI makes pattern-based coaching seamless and effortless

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• Transcript

  Philip Pape: 0:01

  For decades, the gold standard for fat loss and muscle gain has been tracking calories and macros. The research is clear, it works. But what if AI coaching could analyze your eating patterns, correlate them with your body's response, and provide similar awareness and control without logging every meal? Today I'm breaking down how AI-powered pattern analysis actually works, why it can be just as effective as detailed tracking, and what you need to make either approach successful for building muscle and losing fat over 40. Welcome to Wits and Weights, the show that helps you build a strong, healthy physique using evidence, engineering, and efficiency. I'm your host, certified nutrition coach Philip Pape, and today we're going to examine two very different approaches to the same goal and why one might be far more sustainable than you think, especially since it's kind of a brand new approach. You probably know I'm a big advocate of tracking calories and macros. I use MacroFactor myself. I recommend it to clients and all of you regularly. The research is absolutely clear that tracking food intake works really well for fat loss and muscle gain, for changing your physique, for gaining some awareness and control over your food intake and your choices. And when you track properly, when you weigh your food, when you log consistently, when you're honest about what goes in and that you track everything, you do get very valuable data. You know exactly what you're eating. You know how much protein, you can make precise adjustments, you can troubleshoot the plateaus that might occur along the way because you have real data. And it's been very helpful for me as a coach as well, because I can see your data and quickly do an analysis on what might be happening. And for lots of people, this becomes a simple daily habit. It's almost automatic. You, as soon as you prepare your food, you pull out the food scale, you weigh it, you log it in your app, right? Or maybe you use the photo the photo AI, or maybe you look it up or use a barcode, whatever. It takes two minutes. And most people, their screen time for the day is like three to five minutes. Not a lot. That's not the concern at all. And so after a few weeks, you've got this routine, it's not a big deal, and you start to get really good, helpful data. And so the power of tracking is the awareness. I've talked about this a lot. I'm sticking to that. That is so, so important. Because when you have to log something, anything, right? Whether that's your bank account, that you may you bought something at the grocery store, that's awareness. You bought something online, that's awareness. And then you become conscious of your choices. Same thing with the food. You become conscious of choices. They don't become mindless anymore, they become mindful. You see patterns that you wouldn't notice otherwise. You discover that the healthy salad that you've been eating has 600 calories of just dressing and nuts, right? And that's healthy in quotes, right? You know, we don't use those those labels here. You realize your portions at dinner are 40% larger than you thought. You realize that on the weekends you consume three times as much as you thought because you're going out to restaurants, drinking alcohol, and all of that. And that's the awareness that drives behavior change. Not because hitting your calorie target creates fat loss, but because seeing your intake helps you make the decisions to do that. And the feedback loop is then immediate. And by the way, we have to close that feedback loop. If you're only logging the food and not doing anything with the data, well, then it's an open loop. It's not a closed feedback loop at all, anyway. That's a different issue. I'm assuming you are closing that loop. So if you eat 2,200 calories a day for a week and your weight goes up, then you know what happened, right? You know that you're eating probably more than your body burns. If you eat 1800 calories, your weight trend goes down. Well, that confirms you're in a deficit, right? And for people who like structure, who enjoy data, who want clear targets to hit, raise your hand. I'm raising mine. Tracking is fantastic. It removes guesswork, it builds confidence, it works. That is the premise of today's episode. So if tracking works this well, why would anyone do something else? Well, that's the question that I used to ask. I said, well, if tracking macros and calories work so well, why would you do something else? Isn't it the best tool for the job? I always say macro factor is like the best tool for the job in the app space, right? And honestly, for a long time, I thought that tracking in this exact way was the only serious approach for anyone who wanted results because you're gonna fail without it, right? But then I started noticing something with certain clients who weren't necessarily tracking the same way. I started talking to folks like Dr. Eric Helms and other physique competitors who have a very healthy mind state and at the same time have started to transition themselves and some clients away from that type of tracking. Okay. And I notice the words I'm using. We are not gonna eliminate tracking. If you want to not track at all, have at it. That's called intuitive eating. That's called flying by the seat of your pants, that's called winging it. I think you're not gonna be successful if you do that. You have to track something, okay? It's the way that we track that could change. I remember having guests on the show who very successful coaches with their clients who didn't use calorie macro tracking. Everything from nutrient approaches like Sarah Ballantine, right? She starts with nutrients to Christina McClerkin was on, and she talked about tracking other elements of what you eat other than calories and macros, but you're still tracking something. And I've had several other guests that I've talked to and other coaches that have similar systems. They're just different, but they still track. Now, I always, I always kind of said, okay, that's great, you do you. And I'm just gonna stick to what I think is simple, which is calories and macros. But there's there's another phenomenon that occurs when you're tracking, depending on how you're tracking. Okay, and I'm not talking about disorders, I'm not talking about OCD, I'm not talking about obsessiveness, none of that. Okay. Outside the scope of today, we know that the research says that if you didn't have an issue already before, tracking only helps. It only helps you get the results and maintaining results. What I do find is that the type of tracking, right, when there's a lot of data involved, for example, and you have to track a lot of things, even smart, motivated, consistent people would do this eight weeks, 12 weeks, maybe 16, and start to get results. But then a lot of times they fall off and they stop logging. And it's not because they failed to get the results, it's not because they lacked discipline. But a lot of times people say, Look, I've got the awareness. I've built the skill, I've built the intuition. I don't need to do this anymore, do I? And you've developed some instincts. That is true. You know what your portions look like. You can feel when you're in a deficit or maintenance. You internalize a lot of the patterns. A lot of these things do become routine. Like if you're eating the same way, you just keep doing that and you can maintain your weight. But they then went one of two paths. And again, I'm talking to people that stopped tracking in the original way they were tracking, which is a decent amount of the population here that I'm referring to. They either stopped tracking altogether and then started to deviate and basically fall off their habits because they had no other system in place to reinforce what they were doing or to measure or to track. You had others, however, who simply supplanted one style of tracking with another, maybe a looser form of tracking, but still awareness, still some sort of documentation or journaling or a light set of numbers, some way that they continue to track. Do you feel me? Do you feel what I'm saying? Okay. And even when you talk to guys like Derek, Dr. Eric Helms, where people get transition away from tracking, they're still tracking something, or they still have an awareness of, say, certain targets. Like I'm trying to get a certain amount of protein in a certain number of meals. And even if it's in their head, it's still a target and it's still a number, and there's still an element of tracking to it, right? So, so what does all this mean? Well, uh, maybe the goal isn't permanently tracking in one way. Maybe the goal is developing the awareness and the decision making that skills that tracking teaches, and then be able to maintain results with some lighter version of tracking or a different version of tracking if you so choose. And once I realized that, I said, huh, let me explore other ways people can continue to track that are maybe a little bit less time consuming or less stressful. I shouldn't say time consuming because tracking calories and macros isn't time consuming, but it does create some weird scenarios like when you go on vacation or when you're eating out or when your wife makes dinner for you and she sees you pulling out your phone every time to track the food. It can get a little bit, it can create a little bit of interesting friction or stress in other ways. Does that make sense? Do you guys feel me on that? All right. And that's what led me to explore what I call pattern-based coaching, not as a replacement for tracking, but as a different path to the same destination. Now, we're gonna get into what pattern-based coaching is. And I will tell you that if a person has to do this, either yourself or a coach doing it for you, it takes quite a bit of learning and training to do it this way up front. And then once you do it, it it's I'll say a lot more natural, intuitive approach that still involves a form of analysis and tracking. All right, fit stick with me here because this is all gonna make sense by the time we get to the end of the episode. So, what is pattern-based coaching or tracking? Well, instead of tracking the numbers via a database of food, you're tracking the eating behaviors that lead to your trends, your patterns, what you choose to eat, and ultimately then the nutrients, the macros and the micros that go into your body that affect your body composition results. So, in other words, you're kind of flipping it backward. Instead of starting from targets and trying to fit into those targets, you're starting from what really is the root cause of your behaviors that lead to whether you hit those targets. Now you could say, well, why don't you do both? Yeah, you can absolutely do both. In fact, a lot of my coaching with clients is filling in the gap of the pattern side. That's the point of where how I was able to kind of figure all this out over the years, is that many of my clients are using macrofactor, tracking calories, macros, but then I'm coming from the other end, one-two punch, and trying to figure out these trends and patterns with them and solve the issue from that direction. The calories and macros are just kind of telling them the end of the chain for a given day or a given week or given month of their choices, but it doesn't tell them how to solve those choices or you know, those behaviors. So, in now, so what if you said, what if I just take out those training wheels? Or what if I just take out the tracking of calories and macros all together? How would you use this successfully? Where it doesn't become winging it intuitive eating. The key insight is this your body composition outcomes are determined by your lifestyle and your patterns. They're not determined by whether you strictly hit calories and macros. And I say it that way because you might say, wait, wait a minute, energy balance and getting enough protein, that's that's really all you need, right? In reality, if you hit your macros, but you do it in a way where you're hungry, you're eating calorie-dense foods or a lot of processed foods, let's say, the meal timing doesn't work for you, you're training fasted and it doesn't feel good, you don't have enough sleep, et cetera, et cetera, then you're not gonna get your body composition. Strictly hitting the calories and macros isn't gonna be enough, is my point. So I want you to think about a different way. If your body weight trend is moving down over several weeks, then you know you're in a calorie deficit and what you're doing is working. You actually don't have to know your expenditure or your intake to know you're in a calorie deficit. Let me repeat that. You don't have to know your expenditure or your intake to know you're in a calorie deficit retroactively. In other words, in hindsight. So if you go three weeks and you've lost a pound a week, then you've averaged a 500 calorie deficit a day, even if you didn't know what your intake was. Now you might say, okay, that's great, but I still need to know what to eat to get there. Stick with me. If your waste measurement is shrinking and your strength is going up, that is also data that's telling you you're doing something right. If you're feeling fairly satisfied from your food and you're not gaining weight, versus if you're always feeling hungry and you're not gaining weight, that's your body telling you something that you need to know. And so interestingly, those are still things being tracked. And I like to track those things anyway, but I'm tying them into this thought that you may not have to track calories and macros. So stick with me here. When I talk about a pattern, I don't, I'm not just talking about food. All right, let's break it down. I'm gonna break it down into five things. All right. The first thing is body composition trends. If you're tracking your daily weight and then smooth that into a trend line, something like Macro Factor does that. My new app is gonna do that. It's a very simple thing. It's just math, all right? And that filters out your daily fluctuations from water, from food volume, from glycogen, from inflammation. This trend is real data, right? It tells you if you're in a deficit, surplus, or maintenance all by itself, believe it or not. Okay, all by itself. In fact, macro factor uses that to say, am I in a def, are you in a deficit or surplus? Therefore, this is what your expenditure is, therefore, this is how you need to change your calories. But you know what? If macrofactor didn't tell you what your expenditure was, it can still tell you whether your calories should go up or down by a certain amount because of whether you're in a surplus or deficit versus your goal. That's really powerful. I hope you guys understand what I'm saying. Okay, these are different variables that play together. If you know you're in a deficit and the deficit's not as big as you'd like, then you know you're not eating in as big a deficit relative to your expenditure as you want, even if you don't know your expenditure. That's pretty cool. Okay, stick with me. The second thing, eating behaviors. Now, this is super powerful. It's not, it's not what you eat, but how and why you ate it. Were you physically hungry before the meal? Or was it an emotional hunger, or were you not hungry? How satisfied did you feel after? How confident were you in your food choices? These capture your relationship with food. And you know what? I've been, I'll say admittedly, inadequate in dealing with these aspects in my coaching so far. Apologies to all my clients out there. I I know maybe I'm being hard on myself because I know physic university has lots of coach, uh lots of modules in the different courses about emotional eating and different exercises and all that. I get it. But I feel like from a tracking perspective, I could do better. And going forward, I'm going to. In fact, that's where this is all leading to. This is all gonna make sense. Number three, meal composition patterns. Okay. Is there protein at most meals? What does the composition of your plate look like? I think that's really important. Now, I didn't used to think it was as important because I thought calories and macros. But no, are you eating mostly whole foods with some flexibility for processed foods in there? Are each me, is each meal fairly balanced, right? They don't all have to be, but in general, how different are your weekends from your weekdays, your training days from your off days, et cetera? Those patterns tell us something as well. You notice what I'm doing, guys. I'm actually giving you a more complex, in a good way, complex as in nuanced or complete picture of things to track than just calories and macros that can lead to the same outcome and maybe even more efficiently. Whoa, mind blowing. I know it's my it is mind blowing in my opinion, in my mind. I hope it is in yours. Okay. Number four of the things you're tracking that are not calories and macros are biofeedback signals. So we talk about this a lot on the show: sleep quality, energy levels, hunger, cravings, digestion, recovery from training, stress. These tell you if your approach is sustainable for you right now in your life. Okay, not only is it sustainable, but like the cause and effect of different aspects of what's going on, right? Like if your deficit is not as low as we thought it would be, but you're feeling hungry, which implies you're not eating that much, and you have low sleep. Oh, now we could put that together into a pattern that says you're not getting enough sleep. That's suppressing your metabolism. Therefore, you feel hungry and you have cravings while you're also not getting the deficit you want. What do we need to address? Probably need to eat a little more while we fix our sleep and our stress. Boom, right? And again, you didn't even have to know calories and macros. And in fact, the calories and macros could be counterproductive because it can make you frustrated thinking, I'm in a deficit. Why am I not losing weight? Okay. And the fifth metric here is of course, your strength progression. Are you getting stronger? Can you do more? How's your recovery with your strength? Because that's an indicator that you're fueling properly and building muscle. And of course, it's going to change depending on the phase you're in, if you're in fat loss maintenance or building. So these are all connected in your patterns. Now, most people think they need to track calories to develop nutritional awareness. But when you think of tracking, even in something like Macro Factor, it does teach you some skills. It teaches you how to use a food scale, how to log, how to think of food in terms of quantities. So there's definitely that piece of it. And I'm not saying we would we would exclude that altogether. There's still an awareness of quantity and calorie density and portion size that correlates with calories that is important. And pattern-based coaching or tracking teaches you the actual underlying skills. For example, you learn to identify physical hunger versus emotional eating. You discover which meals keep you satisfied for many hours, all through that what used to be an energy crash versus the ones that leave you in that energy crash searching for snacks, like a nomad. Where are the chips? You notice that your weekend eating patterns are dramatically different from weekdays. And this is actually pretty common, that exact scenario, but it might be different for you. It might have to do with your cycle or when you work or when the kids are over or when you have to take care, you know, go to holiday events or family events. And then you can address those specific behaviors. You see that you're great at eating protein at dinner, but it's barely present at breakfast and lunch. And now you have a clear area to improve. Now, I'm not saying calorie macro tracking doesn't give you some of these things. Of course, it does, because you can visually see, oh, I'm not getting enough protein at breakfast. But you do have to go in and look at that data. And I do find a lot of people using these apps, like even macrofactor, they don't go look at that part of the data. They're only looking, they're kind of myopic and thinking only in terms of, you know, am I losing weight or not? Do I need to go up and down in calories or macros? They're not looking at the patterns. The patterns are there. So again, this is where I think it's not one or the other necessarily. And so all of these things help you recognize that, for example, you make poor food choices when you're stressed, but not when you're hungry. Hmm, interesting. That's what creates sustainable change, right? We know it's not willpower. We know it's not restriction. We know it's not low carb or fasting. We know that better self-awareness and decision-making frameworks so that you can get micro wins that are under your control that actually move the ball forward for you is what makes you consistent and ultimately successful. Now, pattern-based scooching, I'm gonna say it's not easier or harder than tracking with calories and macros. It's just different. And sometimes you do both, sometimes you do a little of one or a little of the other. It depends. You have to be consistent with feedback no matter what you're doing, measuring and getting feedback. Right? If you only log the data and don't look at it, or you log data sporadically and look at it, but it's sporadic, you're not gonna get enough to see those patterns. You also need basic nutrition literacy. That's probably one reason you listen to the show. You're you crave information and knowledge, you're curious, you're skeptical, and you don't necessarily need a degree in nutrition science. I mean, you don't, but if you've listened to the show for any length of time, you know there's a lot. There's a lot to learn. What you do need to know is about how much protein do you need? What does a serving of protein look like? Right? So when you go to a restaurant, you kind of know how much protein there is. You understand that the scale fluctuates every day, and that doesn't really matter. What matters is the trend over time. It's trusting the process. It's understanding that your body's response, the weight trend, the measurements, your strength gains, your energy levels, your biofeedback, your hunger signals, all of that becomes your most important guide, not targets, because targets are just reflecting after the fact what's going on with all these other things anyway. And of course, you need patience. Pattern-based coaching reveals issues over time. You know, it's not going to reveal something tomorrow. It's going to take time, several weeks, probably, not just several days, but it doesn't take years. And then when those patterns are revealed, you can then fix the root cause rather than just trying to, let's say, arbitrarily hit a calorie target by white knuckling it even further, by doing what you're already doing, which may not be optimal, even further. Now, quick break here because if you're listening to this and thinking, all right, I want this kind of intelligent coaching that adapts to everything I'm doing, just like Philip's talking about with the pattern-based analysis. I just launched my new app. It's called Fitness Lab. It came out yesterday. And it's an AI coaching app built specifically for adults over 40 who want to do all these things. They want to improve their physique and their health and longevity. They want to build muscle and lose fat. Using this kind of integrative intelligence pattern-based whole body approach is what I'm going to say. It's all of you. It's your hormones, it's everything. You get daily coaching briefings that are personalized to your progress and to your struggles, that are based on how you've been logging things. Meal photo analysis that spots behaviors using AI vision, exactly like we're talking about today, as well as adaptive strength training that responds to your biofeedback, an AI chat coach that you can ask questions anytime that's trained on all of my podcasts, my entire coaching philosophy, and then your specific data. All of that is in my app. It's called Fitness Lab. Download it at witsandweights.com slash app right now through Black Friday. You get 20% off. So take advantage of the deal. It's, in my opinion, super affordable for the kind of app that you're going to get. A premium, never seen before, game-changing type app that impresses me every day as I continue to use and test it myself. My mind is blown, and I think yours will be too. Go to witwaits.com slash app. It's called Fitness Lab. And I want to now segue into how to make this pattern-based approach work. Now, Fitness Lab will do it for you, but I do want to explain how it works underneath. Because if you did want to do it on your own or wanted to design your own system, or if you're a coach listening to this, you're like, well, I don't want to push people to Philips app, but I want to try this with my clients. I'm all for teaching you guys how to do that. All right. You have to have certain foundations in place. Not because I say so, but because this is what determines success or failure. So the first foundation is body composition literacy. You can't coach yourself effectively if you don't understand how body composition works. You need to know that the scale is not the best indicator, right? It fluctuates a lot, but it's helpful over time for sure for fat gain and fat loss and muscle gain and muscle loss. You need to know that muscle tissue is denser than fat. So you can get leaner while the scale doesn't go down, right? You can get even leaner when the scale goes up. That progressive overload and progressing in your training is the critical signal of stimulus for muscle building alongside your weight and your measurements. If you think that clean eating creates fat loss, if you believe the scale is the only metric that matters, then you're already not going to be successful when it comes to the patterns, because that is a restrictive, temporary mindset that is not sustainable and does not correlate well with body composition. So you just need to understand the basics of energy balance, protein's role in fat loss and muscle gain, and why all of these data points together are an important metric. Okay. Foundation two is protein awareness, right? This is where I say this on podcasts all the time. If you can just have protein in every meal, that is gonna be 80% of the equation right there for what people are missing. Now, I've heard some people say, I increase my protein, but then I gain more weight. I said, I said, well, then it's not just protein that's a concern for you, obviously. You're just overconsuming in general. Most people, I'm gonna say, when they meaningfully increase protein, it displaces other things. It makes them fuller and they actually eat less in general and fewer calories overall. But that's not always true, right? This is why we have to understand our patterns and what's happening to our body. Now, you don't, do you have to know exactly how much you're eating? No, but you need to know approximately so that you get in the range that we want to be in, which is 0.701 grams per pound of body weight, right? And maybe a little more if you're in a deficit, a little bit less if you're not, a little bit more if you're older, et cetera. And so then we say, well, what about palm size or palm size serving methodology? Now, I used to kind of frown on that. I know that was like the PMI. Am I saying it? Not PMI, what's it called? Precision nutrition. I'm thinking of project management, the precision nutrition approach. And I think there's merit in understanding visually how much something is. Not necessarily palm, but a palm is something we all have with us at all times. So it could be helpful. Like a palm size serving a chicken breast is like 25, 30 grams of protein. But you could also equate that to say 100 out 100 grams on a scale. Or, you know, if you had a cup of Greek Greek yogurt and you know it's like 20 grams, like understanding, you know, an egg is six grams of protein. It's a helpful, those are helpful proxies to have in your head so that when you're out and about or you're eating on the go, you're eating in a restaurant, you're on vacation, then you know how much protein you're getting. And so you could either get there from calorie counting and tracking and learning that way, and or you could just be intentional about how much protein you have in each meal and do it that way. There's multiple ways to roam, multiple roads to roam, right? And so this is part of nutritional literacy. And I think there's a lot more that goes beyond protein, of course. But I think it starts there. If I had to pick one other area, it would be fiber, having enough fiber. But then we get into the more comp now. We're gonna get into the more complicated aspects of protein, fiber, having having a vegetable and having some sort of carb on your plate is a generally good rubric for how to eat throughout the day. And then you can scale the quantities up and down. And that's where pattern analysis is super helpful. Of course, if you're binging the ice cream late at night, or if you're overeating alcohol naps in the weekend on the in a restaurant, those are also other data points you're gonna have to have, right? It's not just, okay, all my meals are balanced, I'm good. It's I'm a human being and I'm gonna make mistakes or I'm gonna do things that I didn't necessarily want to do, and I need to know what those patterns are. So that's the second foundation. Foundation three, and there's four by the way, that I'm talking about today. Foundation three is closing that loop and getting consistent feedback. Now, by consistent, I mean I do mean at a micro level, which usually means daily, something every day. Not everything every day, but some things every day, and not the same things every day, if I didn't confuse you enough already. And it's being consistent. You're gonna you're gonna miss days, I get it. I always strive to have to do at least one thing a day on my list of things that I'm tracking, if not, you know, the goal is to get all of them done, but if you can get some of them done, right, better than nothing, and that's what consistency is. And some of us have minimums, some of us have super minimums, right? There's a whole philosophy behind this, but there are certain things that if you could do them every day and turn them into habits, and by habit, by habit I mean automatic. Now, lifting weights isn't necessarily something that can be a habit, but getting up at 5 a.m. on training days can be a habit. Packing your gym bag at night can be a habit. Going to the gym and doing all the process of that itself is like a massive skill, uh set of skills and habits, if that makes sense. So you really need to break it down to what are you doing every day. I would say weighing yourself every day is important. I would say having some tracking or awareness of your meals every day, and not, and this is where I'm gonna differ from what I've talked about in the past. If you have enough of the right technology and analysis or a coach and you could get feedback on your meal patterns on a daily basis, even without tracking all your calories and macros, you could actually get more than enough data to make the choices that get you where you need to be. I know this is controversial, guys. It sounds sacrilegious. It doesn't mean we throw the baby out with the bathwater. I still think tracking malaries and calories and macros is a fantastic tool. And these can be complementary. In fact, if you use all these tools together, you probably get the best of it all. But if we subscribe to the 80 20 rule, the Pareto principle, find the the things that are the least stress and time and friction that still gets you 80 or 90% of the results. And each of these things you do every day should take like a minute, two minutes, three minutes max. All right, again, working out. Takes 90 minutes for some of us. That is not the habit. The habit is all the microwins and habits that lead to us doing that thing because that's part of our identity. Identity is a whole other topic. I should do another another episode on because it's also embedded in my app of creating your future identity and really having the app push you to realize that. All right. So you need some sort of minimum viable data on a daily basis. There's a lot more than what I just said. Some things are on a weekly basis, like body measurements, for example, photos, stuff like that. If you disappear for weeks and then try to catch up, you're not going to find a pattern. That's not how it works, right? Consistency is basically the trade-off for the price that you pay for wanting to be successful. And it's a price that I'm willing to pay. And I hope you are as well. All right. The final foundation here is trusting in outcome data. What do I mean? This is the hardest one for some people. So with calorie tracking, you have a target. Okay, I'm trying to hit 1800 calories, and that's gonna be my win for the day. Now, and of course, I hope you're having flexibility around that. Okay, 16 to 1600 to 2000 calories or 1700 to 19, you know, you have a range that is still a win for you. And you get that immediate feedback. With pattern-based approaches that I'm talking about, you simply have other wins that you're using instead of hitting specific calories for the day. And those wins are all all have to do with those specific decisions that put your plate together. The things that would allow you to hit those calories anyway, but now you're doing it in a way that also satisfies the other things we talked about: satisfaction, balance, biofeedback. And then as your body responds and you're collecting your data, like your weight train, your measurements, et cetera, you're gonna know what to change. It's really the same thing that informs whether your calories change. So you are still getting daily wins. And rather than trying to hit a target in a way that is not best for your routine and your behavior, you're actually trying to hit those behaviors and those micro wins throughout the day that ultimately lead to consuming the calories, macros, micros that you want. I hope that makes sense. Right? You're focusing on behavior patterns and letting your body's feedback guide you. And so you're still tracking quite a bit of things. And this is a very powerful approach. So let me be clear about when which approach makes the most sense. I think detailed calorie macro tracking is really good when you're working with a coach, especially, so that they have data, but also when you're in a very specific, precise phase, you know, fat loss phase, a muscle building phase, but a more aggressive one, I would say. Because I'm I've found that less aggressive phases, you almost don't need it as long as you are being consistent with and kind of boring with your food choices. Now, if you're not boring, then you need to spend time becoming a little bit more boring, if that makes sense anyway, before you try to go into fat loss phase. That's the whole pre-fat loss thing we've talked about many times. If you've hit a plateau and you need some more data to troubleshoot what's going on, you don't have enough data. If you generally enjoy tracking calories and macros, it doesn't create stress or disordered eating. If you have a history where less structured approaches lead to overeating, under eating, or falling off track so easily. I'm a huge fan of calorie and macro tracking. So notice that that's a lot of scenarios that we deal with. When does pattern-based coaching help? Well, you want a really centered approach in your behaviors that's sustainable to the point where you don't even need to know the calories and macros to know that you've hit your calories and macros, if that even makes sense. For some of you, it's because of the style of tracking. You're very busy, you can't or don't want to weigh and log what you eat. Maybe you don't have control all the time of prepping your food. Maybe you've tried detailed calorie tracking and macro tracking before, and it's a problem for you individually, which could be the case. Maybe it's create stress, anxiety, and unhealthy relationship with food, whatever. Even though I've I've tried to convince people that give macro factor a try and you probably won't have those issues. But I know some people still have those issues, even with an app like that. Also, pattern-based coaching is great if you want to develop better food instinct, better decision-making skills while you're building your plates and doing your grocery shopping. And if you like the thought of your behaviors and your body's body's feedback being the primary guide to your adjustments, rather than just, hey, here's my expenditure. I think pattern-based coaching is pretty cool. Or here's the third option: you combine them, you combine them strategically. You use calorie macro tracking along with pattern-based coaching. And you can dial one in or the other more or less, depending on what's going on. Or you switch between them. And that gives you the best of both worlds, right? You're not trapped in a permanent mode of tracking, but you have the tool available for you that's best when, say, more or less precision matters or a different style of tracking is important to you. So this leads us to a quick discussion of AI today and how it has changed the game and allowed us to do something that's never been able to be done before. It makes pattern-based coaching seamless and almost effortless, which is almost the opposite of what it's been up to this point. Up to this point, pattern-based coaching is a really complicated thing, in my opinion, to get right. It takes a lot of education, a lot of learning, oftentimes working with a coach. And I think AI is a game changer right now. A human coach can definitely look at your food log, they can spot some patterns, but come on, they can't correlate reams and reams of data, thousands of data points about everything you're doing all day, every day. You know, your sleep quality scores, your step count trend, your training performance, your stress levels, all at the same time every day. They can do it kind of to a certain level, and it depends on how much time your coach puts in. The more, the more time that they put in, the more that they do, the more they're gonna cost. That's for sure. And a lot of you, if you're paying for a cheap coach, you're gonna get a cheap outcome in this regard. Trust me. I'm an engineering thinking person, and I can tell you very few coaches think that way or get to that level of detail. They want it to be as easy on themselves as possible. I mean, you can't blame them, right? They're trying to maximize the time they put in for the revenue they earn while still helping you, but that's the truth of the matter behind the scenes. Whereas AI never has to go to sleep, you don't have to feed it. It can do all this stuff, it can calculate data, it can calculate patterns constantly in real time. It can notice that your food choices deteriorate on days when you sleep poorly, that your protein intake drops on high stress days, that your weekend eating patterns are 600 calories higher than weekdays, but only when you eat it out instead of cooking at home. These correlations reveal the drivers of your behavior. And those are what you can change. That's the first advantage. The second one is how real-time and immediate it is. It's personalized feedback based on your data when you want it at 3 a.m. if you want. I hope you're sleeping at that point, but still, it's the point I'm making. And it's adaptive to your patterns, your biofeedback, your response, your weight trend, your adherence, your protein consistency, your weekend patterns, your step counts, your sleep quality, on and on and on and on. And then it can say, here's your recommendation. I just calculated everything going on in your life in 30 seconds or less, and I gave you a recommendation. Your energy tank this week, despite hitting your targets, maybe your deficit's too aggressive. Maybe you need a rest day. Maybe life stress is the real issue. The AI can triangulate from multiple data sources. So that's what I mean by coaching intelligence, not just collecting data and doing a little cursory kind of intelligence on top of it. And then the cool thing is, at least this is what I'm trying to do with my app, is helping you develop the skills while you do this process. While it's helping you figure this out, you're also learning about it and yourself so that you can then maintain the results and you're not dependent on either the app or coaching or anybody else for the rest of your life. You learn to identify when you're eating from stress versus hunger. You recognize your behavioral patterns around weekends, social situations, high stress periods, right? Different food choices, training load. And then after a few months, you've really developed a skill and could see it for yourself. And you develop nutritional competence, not just adhering to someone else's plan that they gave you. That is the goal. I want you to build independence. Now, let's be honest, neither approach is magic. Whether you track calories or analyze patterns, you still need a calorie deficit to lose fat. You still need progressive overload to build muscle. You still need adequate protein and good sleep. The fundamentals are not changing. But what could change is your adherence, your sustainability, your relationship with your food and your body. I've coached people who thrived with detailed tracking. They love data, they found it empowering, they got incredible results. I've also coached people who, as good as the tracking tools are, they still feel like I'm white knuckling it. I'm doing this to make my coach happy. I have to do it. It's this resistance, you know? And maybe they hit a goal short term and then they stop because they don't like the process. And then they don't want to check in because they haven't been tracking. And I say, well, that's when you need to check. And it's this whole thing. And I'm like, how do I solve this for people? Because not everybody is the same, right? And the real, the real question is not then which approach is more accurate. It's which approach is it's which one can you actually maintain yourself long enough to get the results you want. Right. And if detailed tracking in this way or that way feels manageable and you can do it without creating stress or food stress in particular, do it. Like I can track my calories and macros every day, no issues. But at times I've felt, oh, wouldn't it be nice to not really have to do it that way? Right. And should we really have to do that for the rest of our lives? Like that feels a little dependent to me. And I've definitely questioned that in my brain, even though I don't mind doing it and I like data. So it's kind of an odd situation to be in. So I get it. I get it. Now, if tracking of a certain type makes you miserable, and and I put it that way because there should be a form of tracking that works for you, right? You shouldn't just not track anything at all. And the tracking may be super low stress without involving an app. It might be involving just a few things in your head. I don't know, but you're still tracking and aware. Anyway, if it's something you're not going to stick with longer than a few weeks, then another approach might be the answer you need. And I would say that this pattern-based coaching that I've developed for the app is a game changer in that regard because I think it's going to open up for a lot of people a way to do this that's highly precise and informative, but feels extremely low stress. And I think that's a wonderful combination. There's no moral superiority to any of these approaches. It's just what works for you in your life right now with your psychology. Now, remember, calorie targets, targets are great, like KPIs, targets. But in any world, even in like the financial world, calorie, a financial target, it's like an outcome, right? Even if it's a daily outcome, it's not going to teach you how to get to that outcome. It's not calorie targets aren't going to teach you how to eat. Like I think we know that. They tell you what to hit, what to get to. They don't show you that, hey, I'm eating out of stress right now, not hunger. They don't tell you that your portions are 30% larger when you eat with these people over here because they stress you out versus these people over here. They don't identify that, you know, you make great choices at home but struggle in restaurants. The targets don't. Now, the information you track trying to hit those targets do. And that's where I'm saying there's a lot of ways to get there. I think pattern analysis in this way makes the invisible more visible. And once you see the pattern, once you understand what's driving your behavior, then you can fix the behavior. You know, not by tightening the target, right? Or adding more restriction to hit a target, but address the behavior at its source. And we know that is what creates long-term success, better self-awareness, better decision-making frameworks, right? And then you stop reacting to your food environment, you start designing it instead, you stop fighting your hunger signals and instead respond to them the right way, including your emotions instead of just reacting. You get to use those emotions. You stop depending on someone else's rules and you start trusting your own competence. And that is that's transformation, guys. That is transformation. So I know some of you listening are tracking macros. You use macro factor or another app, it's working great. Keep doing it, please. I still use macro factor myself while I'm using my new app. And I would love to see if I can get it to a point where I only need to use one, and that day might be just a short while away. If you're someone who's tried tracking, it didn't stick, or if you don't like the mental overhead, or it's really not helping you as much as you want for some of these other deeper issues, that's where pattern-based coaching could be what you need, right? Not as a replacement for tracking, it's a different way to track. It's a sustainable way and it teaches you skills as well while you're doing it, which is kind of cool. And the goal here isn't just stop thinking about nutrition, right? It's to think about it more effectively, develop awareness, develop decision-making frameworks that serve you, that serve you for the rest of your life. All right. If this approach resonates with you, I built Fitness Lab to deliver exactly this kind of intelligent coaching. I'm very proud of it. I've been using it myself. It's super exciting. It's only going to get better, and it'll get better faster the more people that use it and give feedback. There's all the other fun features. I'm not going to go into them, you know, the briefings, the strength training, the AI coach, all that great stuff. But it's built specifically for those of us over 40, primarily, right? Who have our challenges and we want to know what the heck's going on and what to do about it. We want sustainable fat loss. We want to build muscle. We don't want to guess. Download it at witsandweights.com slash app through Black Friday, November 28th. You're going to get 20% off. That's wits and weights.com slash app. I'd love to have you in there and have you see what's possible when you try something different like this. Witsandweights.com slash app for fitness lab. Until next time, keep using your wits, lifting those weights, and remember that the best nutrition approach is the one that builds real awareness and fits your life

Why Most Fitness & Nutrition Apps Fail People Over 40 (And What Actually Works) | Ep 401

Get early access to Fitness Lab before the official launch! Join my email list at witsandweights.com/email (if you’re already on just reply and ask for the “secret link”)

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Even if your tracker or workout/nutrition app logs everything, it still can’t tell you WHAT to do when progress stalls.

We dig into the hidden gap sabotaging results... the missing interpretation layer... and show how to turn raw data into smart, timely decisions that finally help you get unstuck.

If you’ve hit a wall with MyFitnessPal, MacroFactor, or your favorite lifting app, this conversation explains why the numbers look fine while your body says otherwise.

You’ll hear how midlife physiology changes the rules over 40, why plateaus are often upstream issues like sleep debt or weekend habits, and how qualitative signals like training effort, hunger, and mood complete the picture missed by most algorithms.

Learn how a coaching-style layer can synthesize your logs, photos, and health data into clear actions: training load, rest and recovery, protein and carbs, or a weekend plan that prevents backslides. 

The goal isn’t more tracking. It’s better decisions from the tracking you already do, so you can build muscle, lose fat, and sustain results with less guesswork and more confidence.

Timestamps

0:00 - Why tracking alone isn't enough for building muscle over 40
2:18 - The missing interpretation gap that keeps you stuck
5:30 - What fitness apps actually do well (and their limitations)
9:10 - When tracking algorithms miss the root cause of your plateau
14:06 - Why recovery capacity matters more in your 40s and 50s
18:56 - How identity and behavior change drive sustainable results
22:56 - Sleep and recovery optimization for strength training
25:06 - Making personalized coaching accessible and affordable
28:56 - How adaptive training decisions improve muscle-building progress
32:16 - Analyzing meal patterns beyond calories and macros for better body composition

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• Transcript

  Philip Pape: 0:01

  If I were to guess, you've probably tried many fitness, nutrition, and workout apps. For a while, you use them and they help you make progress. You might track your food, you follow workouts, and then something happens. The scale stops, your lifts stop, and the app can't really respond to those. What about all the obstacles along the way? What is missing is often that interpretation layer. The coaching that takes your data and tells you what to do next for your specific situation. Today we're gonna break down why most fitness apps today fail in doing the thing you really need, and what actually works without having to hire a coach. Welcome to Wits and Weights, the show that helps you build a strong, healthy physique using evidence, engineering, and efficiency. I'm your host, certified nutrition coach, Philip Pape, and today we're gonna look at fitness apps in general, how they're designed today, the ones on your phone for nutrition, for workouts, uh maybe even some of the new lifestyle type apps, and why they're not giving you what you need. I talk to people every day, every week, who tell me they're using this app or that app. It might be a food tracker like my FitnessPal chronometer. Of course, I will suggest upgrades like Macro Factor along the way, or some of the strength and workout apps that I like, like Boost Camp. And a lot of folks using these apps, they listen to the show, they understand principles like progressive overload, they know they have to get enough protein, they know they want to track their numbers and kind of see how things change, but they're still stuck in some way. And when I ask them, hey, you said you're using an app, you're following some sort of system. How do you know what to do when this happens? How do you know what to do when you hit a plateau of some kind, whether it is in your body fat or your lifts or food issues like emotional eating, you know, just the holidays coming up? The answer is always the same. The app doesn't really tell me that, right? The app isn't smart enough to do that. Maybe I go ask ChatGPT or something, or maybe I hire a coach or work with a coach or come into the Facebook group, right? In other words, we usually seek out some extra intelligence, human connection, a third person, a third-party perspective, things like that, rather than something generic because this is about us as individuals. And so that's the problem we're gonna solve today. And tomorrow, Tuesday, November 18th, I am launching something that fixes this exact gap. It's the whole reason that I uh designed what's coming out tomorrow. Look, it's an app. It is an app, but it's completely different than everything else in the space. Today I want to show you why the gap exists in the first place. So you understand why I spent all the time and effort over the past several months putting this together for you. Before we get into it, if you want early access to the app that I'm launching tomorrow, join my email list at witsandwaits.com slash email. There's a link in the show notes as well. And if you're already on the list, you're already getting this information. If you're not on the list yet, join, reply, and say, hey, I want the secret link to the app. All right, and I will get it to you. And you can get access to it right now, including the Black Friday pricing before anyone else gets it when it launches tomorrow. All right, let's get into it today and start with what most fitness apps actually do quite well. And the first one is that they're good at tracking data. They're really good at this. Whether it is MyFitnessPal, Chronometer, MacroFactor, Boost Camp, Strong, any of these, they will help you log the data. And in some cases, they will use that with an algorithm or some sort of calculation, right? Like we know MyFitnessPal doesn't really do much of anything other than let you log, but at least it shows you what you ate. My macrofactor will take that data along with your weight and say, okay, here's your expenditure, therefore we can calculate your targets for gaining or losing weight, right? So it takes it to that next level, which is very impressive that they can do that. I really do. You guys know I'm a big fan of MacroFactor for that reason. You take a workout logger like Boostcamp and it will say, hey, here are your PRs, here's what you did last time, and now you can figure out what I need to do this time. And sometimes there's a little bit extra intelligence, like a percent of your max or something like that. And at the end of the day, tracking something that you care about is foundational. It's a first principle. You can't manage what you don't measure. So I'm never gonna say don't track. Absolutely not. Tracking is invaluable. But tracking is only the half the equation, and that's if you even know what to track, right? Because there are a lot of things. The other half, the part that drives the result is how do you interpret that data and take action based on it, right? What does the data mean? What should you do with it? And what's interesting is in physique university, we've covered this multiple times when it comes to your macrofactor data or however you're tracking your data, of as much as as much of that you have in your app or your notebook or whatever, things happen that where the data doesn't seem to make sense, right? Like people say, why is my metabolism dropping? And there's 20 possible reasons. I don't know until I look at it. And then I'm gonna ask you 10 more questions, right? I'm gonna say, okay, are you sleeping enough? How's your stress? What did you do? You know, did you eat a bunch of salt and Chinese food? Right? Like there's a lot of these questions. And as good as some of these apps are, like Macrofactor, it doesn't have that level of intelligence. Maybe it will one day, but it doesn't today. And that's where pretty much every app falls short today. Even the AI apps, like the AI Fitness apps, I'll say that they're very narrow in scope. You know, they're getting better, they they attack like one small problem, but not necessarily the full context. So that's what we're gonna get to today. Just bear with me. So going back to this whole data thing, if again, let's say you're using MacroFactor and it gives you a target, if you hit the target consistently, you are probably going to get the result you want, at least initially, or part of that result. But what's gonna happen is in reality, things change. Maybe you walk less, maybe you get injured, maybe you are stressed out of your mind, and now your expenditure drops. But the app can't predict that. It doesn't have a crystal ball, right? So it's gonna happen, and then all of a sudden you don't quite get the result you thought. And the app's like, well, you didn't get the results, but but here's what's happening, so we're gonna keep adjusting you. So it's it's reactive, and to be fair, it's very quickly reactive, but it's still reactive. What if the problem really isn't your energy balance, though? At the end of the day, it is, but there's a root cause that's upstream. What if your protein's been inconsistent? What if your step count dropped and maybe you're not even aware of it? Maybe you're in a fat loss phase, you're moving a lot less than you thought. What if your sleep's been terrible and you're underrecovered and that's affecting a lot of other things? A tracker as it exists today is not going to tell you that. It's going to show the numbers and try to crunch some algorithms to give you a little more to work from, but not nearly as much as you want, which is why most people need some level of accountability or coaching or partnership or, you know, a Facebook group or a community, somebody else to connect with them to help look at that data, not just that data, but all the data, right? Yeah, it's your weight trend, it's your training feedback, your recovery signals, your biofeedback in general, your body measurements, your nutrition patterns, what does your food look like? What's the quality of food? What's the balance, the meal timing, the supplementation, right? I can go on and on. You guys are like overwhelmed. I know all this. I know it's like a huge list of the fitness pillars that we have to deal with. But at the end of the day, like for me as a coach, when somebody pays me a bunch of money every month to personally look at their data line by line and understand what's going on, that's what I'm doing. I'm trying to figure out, like a detective, here's what's happening, here's what's changing, here's what you have to do to address. Now, many of you have done this on your own and done it fairly successfully. There is a whole spectrum. Some of you do it on your own successfully because maybe there isn't too much happening. Others are just you're stressed out of your mind because you know you're in your 40s, there's perimenopause, the hormones are changing, you've got more belly fat, you're doing what you did before, but it's not working anymore. You're doing everything that the influencers and the podcasters say and it's not working. You're tracking all the apps. Does this sound familiar? Right? Does this sound familiar? And I'm sick of it, frankly. I'm sick of I love helping people. I'm sick of people not succeeding even when they put in the effort and they're smart and they're listening and they're taking action and they're changing their behaviors, right? And so the next thing I want to talk about here is why this does matter even more for those of us that are older, right? As you get into your 40s and 50s, I think that's kind of the sweet spot in someone's life where they're past the point where they can kind of do anything they want and get away with it. And they're right in the point where life gets more stressful. You have more obligations, you have family, you have uh your career, right? Your body is uh starting to degrade a little bit, you're starting to lose that muscle mass, the hormones are starting to decline. There is a reason that this is this midlife transition is so challenging for so many of you, right? I get it. Now, in your 60s and 70s, can it still be challenging? Of course. But I'm I want to hit on when this stuff starts so that we can understand what to do. Now, maybe in your 30s you start to have issues as well. It doesn't matter, it's not so much the number as kind of the general idea here, right? Your body doesn't respond the way it did in your 20s. You had your hormones raging, you had everything going for you, there was no degradation, no aging that had occurred really in your body at that point. Your ability to recover was super high, your hormones were super good, well balanced, your life stress was less, right? All of that. And so if you just take the principles and a plan and then you try to apply it to you, that's a good start. But immediately on day two, the plan starts to fall apart because of these issues. And it might have to do with the training split, the training volume, the way you're trying to progress, your equipment, what you did last night, your joints are achy, you're exhausted every session. What do I do for that? What do I do when I have an energy crash in the afternoon and I can't help but raid the freezer for ice cream, you know, or muffins or whatever your thing is, right? So again, if you're just trying to take a plan and track and then go, you might be frustrated because of these things. You might start strong, make some progress, and then burn out. Now, some of this has to do with misunderstanding of behavior change and habit formation, the idea that we're trying to go all out, or the idea that we're trying to create a so-called quote-unquote habit of working out, when really that's not the habit. The habit is the little automated things that tie to your identity as a person who just, yeah, works out and trains. There's a process to get there, right? So it's not because of a lack of, I'll say willpower or discipline, although discipline depends on how you define discipline, right? There's an element of discipline that actually is uh valid in terms of you've built up habits, you've changed your identity, you just do the thing. There is that element of discipline. But I'm thinking more of like just do it type discipline, right? It's not because you're too old. No, no, no. Okay. I've worked with people in their 70s and 80s who are just killing it, they're crushing it. It's fine. Their body responds, the human body responds pretty much till the day you die to any of this stuff at different levels, okay? It's because the system they're using doesn't account for their physiology and their life circumstances. Now, I've been hammering this message since the beginning on the show, but in the past, I hammered it in the context of hey, maybe you need to work with a coach or be in a community or get a training partner or someone else that can help you with this, or at least really learn these skills and this knowledge, which for a lot of you, it's it's overwhelming. It's like, I don't want to be a nutrition expert, you know, I want to listen to a podcast or work with a coach and kind of be told what to do, or at least learn what to do for me. So it's scoped down, right? So the general principle here is having something that adapts, that evolves, that is dynamic with you, that says, hey, your sleep was terrible last night. Let's think about what that means today for, I don't know, training intensity or capability, what it means for your emotions around food today because you're tired. You know, if your protein has been consistently low for three days, even though you've averaged well for the past two weeks, but all of a sudden it's dropped. What's going on? What strategies do we do to fix that? Is this a deviation from your habits that we want to look at? Right. So it gets kind of nuanced. And that's what coaching does. That's but a lot of people can't hire a coach or afford a coach. You know, this is why over the years I've put together different levels like physique university, which is super affordable, but even some people can't afford that. I get it. It's super affordable, but it's more self-motivated, even though we have education, we have community accountability, right? We do have some of that in there for sure. We have real human coaches like myself and Carol who can you can tag and talk to. And I think that's really, really important. And a lot of people need that and want that. But when we talk about doing it yourself or using an app or trying to scale this so it's super accessible to as many people as possible in the world, yourself included, because you may not want to deal with coaches and paying for coaches and dealing with all that, that is what's missing from fitness apps today. Okay, that is what's missing. And we're gonna talk about that in a second. I did just talk about recovery, though, as a big piece of what is what is critical when you're over 40, right? We have stimulus, which is the activity, the training, the things you're doing, and then we have the recovery, which is kind of everything else. It's super critical. So I just wanna give a shout out to today's sponsor, Cozy Earth, because they have helped me tremendously improve my sleep quality. I'm actually really excited right now because we're at the tail end of our sheets before they have to get washed. And so I know I have a few more days with the cozy earth sheets before we go to the inferior other sheets that feel, you know, harsh and dry and they I sweat in them, but the cozy earth sheets are amazing, guys. They really are. They make cozy earth makes bedding, but specifically sheets, but they make a lot of other things. And it's derived from bamboo. And I'm not exaggerating when I say they are the most comfortable sheets I've ever slept on because of how it regulates temperature. You guys know I'm an engineer. I love it when somebody comes up with a material engineering solution to a problem. And I think they did that. And I I know bamboo-dry fabric can be super luxurious and temperature regulating in other products, like like briefs. I have personal experience. I've joked about that before. But for the sheets, you know, I want to sleep restfully. I want to get that high sleep score. I want to have really good recovery for muscle building. I don't want to wake up too hot or cold or wake up in the middle of the night because of it, right? And these sheets are amazing. They stay soft after many washes. I can attest to that. We bought a second set, so I could almost have uninterrupted use of the sheets, I hope. And at the end of the day, better sleep means better recovery, means better training, means better results. It's just a piece of the overall pie, but it's a very, very important one. If you want to upgrade your sleep quality, and again, if you're over 40, sleep is probably one of the highest leverage, the highest ROI variables that you're not optimizing right now. Check out Cozy Earth, go to wins and weights.com slash cozy earth, use code wits and weights for 20% off. Again, that's wits and weights.com slash cozy earth. Use code wits and weights for 20% off. They have a hundred day guarantee where you can return them for no cost. And they have all sorts of warranties and guarantees because the stuff is just that good. So go to wits and weights.com slash cozy earth and use code wits and weights for 20% off. All right, let's get back to now what actually works then if we want to fill this gap in the space, get you something that's really affordable as well, because I'm all about that, right? People say, look, I want a coach, I can't afford it. I want to join a group program, I can't afford it. Okay, so what's the solution here? Something you can use on your own, but we can't replicate a coach, can we? Right? Because the obvious answer is hire a coach. And you're gonna hear coaches go on podcasts, and at the end of the day, they want you to hire them. They want you to pay, pay them for their time, right? Which is which can be definitely valuable if it's a good coach. And you get someone who looks at your data, who interprets it, who tells you what to do next. And that works. That's what I do with private clients. And I have clients who they run into financial difficulty and they'll say, Look, can you do something to work with me so I can still have that connection with you? I'm like, Yeah, let's let's reduce the number of calls or let's, you know, let's just scale something down so that it's a win-win for both of us, right? But not everyone can afford one-on-one or group coaching. And honestly, and this is sacrilege, not everyone needs it. What everyone does need is a way to interpret their results. The thing that sits on top of your data and gives you coaching level feedback. Now, that might come from your own brain, that might come from listening to a podcast, or we're all about efficiency here. It might come from an app that can actually do these things, which is what I'm getting to. And I know this sounds like one big sales pitch for the app, and you know what? Frankly, it probably is. But it is because I'm it's a passion project of mine that I created that I'm using myself that I love, and I think you will too. But let me show you what this looks like in practice, okay? The first thing you need from a training perspective, your training has to adapt to what you're doing. Now, if you go back to something like starting starting strength, three sets of five, every session you go up five pounds. Now, they don't really mean five pounds. If you look into the nuance, they'll say, go up the appropriate level for how much you're adapting and getting stronger so that you don't miss any reps. But then people are like, well, how much is that? And if somebody fails the reps, I say, okay, did you go up the right amount? Are you resting long enough? Are you getting enough recovery? It always comes down to that anyway. And so even a baseline new beginner program like Starting Strength, they're not saying just get the three sets of five done, regardless of everything else. They're saying get it done and do the other things to support getting that done. And if not, if you fail reps, there's something else happening, right? So then you're you're like, okay, well, how do I do that? Well, that's where you have to ask questions of yourself or a coach asks you, how did that feel? Was it easier the same or harder? Did it feel like a grind? How are you sleeping? How are you eating, right? Are you taking long enough rest between your sets? I mean, now if a coach is looking at your data, they'll know that, right? And then use that to decide how do what do we do next time? Now, in a beginner program like that, like starting strength, you would then decide, well, we're still probably gonna go up, but maybe we're gonna go up a little bit less, right? As you get more advanced, you're not necessarily going up in weight every session. You might be adding reps, you might be adding sets, you might be, you know, switching the intensities around and rotating through rep ranges, all of those sorts of things, right? We're not gonna get into that today. The point is you have to make an adaptive decision based on your recovery and adaptation. Okay. And so if you think about real life, the best time this works is when you have a trainer and you have a conversation with them, right? Like when I work with trainers, it's either a spreadsheet or a chat or something, and I'm like, this is how it felt, this is what I'm doing, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And learn from that qualitative feedback instead of just the numbers, because the numbers are only gonna tell you part of the situation. So on the training side, that's what you need. Let's go to the food side, okay? Now, you guys know I'm a big fan of tracking calories and macros. However, this is gonna, this is gonna seem like a paradigm shift, but it's all consistent. What most people need, when I start working with a client and they use macro factor, that's like 1% of the equation. I'd love to have the data for sure, but even if you didn't have the data, what would you have to do? Or I should put it this way, whether you have the data or not, what do you end up doing based on that data? Well, what you end up doing is looking at the quality of your food, right? Are you eating mostly whole foods that are satiating? The micronutrients, the macronutrients, is there sufficient protein? Are your meals balanced to help with appetite, hunger signals, even blood sugar? Do you have enough meals? Is the timing spaced accordingly to work with your life? Is the timing around your workouts for protein and carbs adequate for fueling yourself and feeling your best? So, what it gets down to is really analyzing the patterns of your meals. By patterns, I don't just mean timing. I mean all the information contained in how you eat, which goes far beyond calories and macros. Now, if you only did calories and macros and tried to hit those, we've talked about this before, you could hit them with like Twinkies and pizza and hamburgers and like throw all that together and somehow hit your macros, but it's not gonna be a great diet because you're not gonna be fueled properly, you're not gonna feel great, your digestion's gonna be awful, your energy is not gonna be good, and you're gonna be hungry. And so it isn't just those, it isn't just hitting your macros, is it? Now, we know that hitting your macros and calories will cause you to control your energy balance, but it's only a tiny piece of the equation. So, having said all that, what if a human being, or in this case AI vision, which has come so far and is so impressive and amazing, can look at your food and just look at one typical meal a day. Analyze that food for color, for nutrients, for balance, for macros, even for calories based on the volume on the plate, and ask you some qualitative questions. Oh, does that sound familiar? Yeah, kind of like what we just talked about with training. Ask you a few qualitative questions. And what if those qualitative questions changed based on the situation and how you've been progressing? Like if I were a if I, as a coach, I'm not gonna ask you the same exact question every time. I'm gonna probably ask a different one based on what's going on, based on the context, right? So if your protein's been solid, let's say you upload a meal each day, just one meal, and the app's like, is this a typical meal for you? Sure, yes. And it has a lot of protein. And the app asks you at the end of the night, hey, how many protein servings did you have today, by the way? Oh, you know, I have five. And you say that every day and protein's been good, but then all of a sudden on the weekend, you're eating a lot more or in a different way, or you report less protein. An intelligent analysis can infer from that pretty accurately that something's off on the weekends. And now we need a different strategy, right? That that's the impressive mind-blowing part about this. So, guys, I worked a lot of uh on this in terms of brainstorming and talking with experts and reviewing some of the great information out there from you know, mass and the evidence and behavior change experts, all of that as I developed the app. And so at the end of the day, I said, what is the lowest stress way to actually help you change your behaviors when it comes to eating to build up your micronutrients and your macronutrients, and then ultimately your energy without having to track calories and macros. I know it sounds sacrilegious. We're not talking about intuitive eating, we're still talking about tracking and analysis. But in this case, you upload one photo a day, the AI then spots lots of different patterns and gets you feedback. That is the difference. Okay. I also don't think it's like Noom. Okay, Noom is I'm not gonna go down that road. I don't want to compare to other apps like that. Okay, let's keep going. So I might do another episode about that if you guys want it. Let me know. So I've just covered training and nutrition. The third thing that you need, okay, so training and nutrition are usually separate apps today. It's rare that those are together. There are a few apps that put them together, and when they do that, it's kind of less less well designed for both, right? But that's just two pieces. Another piece you need is education, reminders of the science and the evidence and what works, strategies, guidance, right? A lot of the reasons you're probably listening to this podcast, but the problem with the podcast is it's it's kind of random. It's all over the place. We have over 400 episodes now. I love sending people specific links to the episode that might work for them, and I'm always happy to do that. You could also search. But what if you had a quick briefing every day in the morning that was targeted exactly to what you needed that day, that adapt and evolved with your progress, that adapt with what you said your goal was. For example, as I'm as I'm testing the app on my end, I'm trying to work on sleep. So a lot of the briefings were relate to sleep. Now, if all of a sudden my sleep gets locked down and it's good, the app is actually gonna change to my next biggest constraint, my next most immediate constraint. That is as personalized as it gets. That's again like if you had a human coach every day in the morning who said, Hey, hey, what's the big thing right now I can help you with? But it's even more powerful than that because the AI knows everything going on, the data. It has your Apple Health data, it has all anyway. I don't want to get into the features of my app specifically, even though I'm doing that already more than I expected. I want to talk about what's missing in current apps. And I think that's a big one. Personalized lessons, or even saying, hey, out of Phillips podcast, here's the one you need right now. Maybe you've heard it, maybe not, but here's the one you need. Your protein's been low, here's a strategy for getting more protein. Your sleep is affecting recovery, here's sleep optimization, right? So it the education itself adapts to your situation. It's not just a static curriculum. And, you know, I'm cannibalizing some of my own stuff here because in physique university we have courses that walk you through all the things. But imagine if you can take one of those courses, take a piece out of it, and have it automatically fed to you on a given day that you needed it. And then, of course, this is huge. This is why people tend to join communities and hire coaches. You need to be able to ask questions and get answers ideally immediately. So all my clients have 24-7 access to me, but that doesn't mean that I respond at 3 a.m. That means you send me a message at 3 a.m. And then during business hours, I respond. But what if you could just get an answer immediately? So in my app, and again, I'm getting into the features of the app today. You know what I did? Today is a non-training day for me, but I wanted a form check on something I did yesterday. And there wasn't an activity for that today because it's a non-training day. So I went over into the coaching chat and I said, How can I give you a form check? And it said, you know what? I'm gonna create an activity right now for you so you can put a form check in. And I did that, and it did that. That's what I've designed the app to do. It's it's it's it's blowing my own mind. And I hope it blows your mind too, because of how on demand and adaptive it is. So you don't have to wait for a call, you don't have to wait for a group call, you don't have to wait, you don't have to schedule something, you don't have to wait for your coach to wake up or get back to you. You don't have to post some Facebook group and hope somebody responds, right? Just ask the coach, hey, why is my weight moving? I'm really struggling right now, I'm trying to lose fat. Why is my weight moving? And it can then help diagnose what is going on right now. And it will know based on your data, hey, you know what? Your sleep has been six hours a night lately, used to be eight. That could be part of the issue. Let's talk about it, right? Incredible. So that's what coaching does. That's what human coaches do. But imagine if an app can do that and make intelligent personalized decisions for you or suggestions for you. Until now, as far as I can see, and I've done a lot of research, and I hope you guys have as well. No app can really do that as good as an actual human coach. But what if it could? What if you can get that interpretation layer without the cost and the scheduling and the time and the effort of one-on-one or group or community-based coaching? What if the app could do the interpretation for you? And that is what I built. And that launches tomorrow. So there's your pitch. There's your pitch. Now, what's interesting about all of this is when I was building the app, I always came back to the same question. What would I want myself if this was five years ago and I was starting my early 40s? Because you guys know, you know, I didn't have my stuff together until then. And I'm still figuring it out, like we all are. But what if I could, what could I have back then? Right. Like when Macro Factor came out, I jumped out on day one because it was a game changer compared to what was available. Well, I think this is going to be at least as much of a game changer in the space because back then I was, I was where a lot of you are now, right? I had so much information. I was up, I was gobbling up podcasts and videos and books. I was reading, I was even reading studies directly, right? And I understood the principles after a while. It took me a while to learn it and absorb it. But there's still so much guessw and detective work. And like, is this training right for me? Am I using the right intensity? Should I add weight or reps? Am I recovering properly? What do I do with my food and my calories and blah, blah, blah. Right. And all the apps I used, it's they couldn't really answer those directly. So I had to become my own coach, but I also had to work with some other coaches who coached me. And then I became a coach because I realized people were struggling with this. And now we have something with technology that can do that. I think it's so impressive. And you know what? Maybe coaches are gonna hate me out there. Maybe if you're a coach and you listen, you're like, Philip, you're gonna take our jobs. You know what? I don't know what the future holds. I just know that when a solution exists and we can make things better and we can help people, let's try to do that. And it especially if it's more accessible to more people. And that's why I built Fitness Lab the way I did. Not to replace your tracking apps, by the way. Look, if you want to keep using Macro Factor for the calories and macros, I actually encourage that. I encourage like a few different apps that are in your tool set that work really well together. I believe you probably could replace those with just this one app. But I would say, look, when this launches, it's brand new. There's gonna be a lot of things I still want to add to the app going forward. And, you know, don't just drop everything. Try it, give feedback into the app, and we're gonna make it better and better over time. But really, it's that coaching layer. And once you have that, then whatever you are already tracking. In the app or outside the app becomes exponentially more valuable because now it's driving decisions, right? Instead of just sitting there in a logger, it's driving intelligent decisions. All right, so let's wrap it up. Most fitness apps are great at tracking data, terrible at interpreting it. I think we've established that. It's not their fault, it's just what we were capable of doing with modern technology. That interpretation gap is where people get stuck, especially as we get older when recovery and hormones require a little more nuance. You don't need more information, more tracking. You need to take that data and understand what to do with it. So tomorrow, Tuesday, November 18th, all right, I'm launching Fitness Lab. It's the AI coaching app that fills this exact gap. Daily coaching briefings personalized to you, meal photo analysis to spot your eating patterns, adaptive strength training that responds to recovery, real-time AI coaching when you get stuck. Um, there's progress metrics. There's so much. There's so much I haven't even talked about. And I'm gonna talk about it a little more tomorrow, so stay tuned. But what matters most is I think it actually ends up teaching you how to coach yourself. So I always joke that I want people to fire me once they've learned what they need to learn and know how to do this and have the confidence. I think the app is gonna be a similar situation where you could get to a point probably where you're like, yeah, I probably don't need this app anymore. I believe the app is gonna be so valuable and have so much runway that you're probably gonna not run out of ways that it can help you improve for many, many months. And I hope years, of course, you know, from a as a business perspective, I hope it's years, but I still think it's going to teach you how to coach yourself. It's not gonna hide that behind the scenes. It's gonna explain why. It's trained on all my podcast episodes, all my coaching guides, and a ton of manual instructions that I gave it to emulate our philosophy of this show: flexibility, sustainability, self-autonomy, and efficacy, right? Not just getting the result, which is important, but how to read your body's feedback, how to make better decisions about everything, training, recovery, et cetera, and how to think like a coach about your own progress, but not have to stress about wondering what to do. It takes the stress out. And it's built specifically for adults over 40 who want to build muscle, lose fat, improve your body composition without guessing. The Black Friday pricing is gonna be 20% off through Black Friday. I don't know if there's gonna be any more discounts in the future, probably big holidays and stuff. You know how these things go, but it'll be 20% off at launch. If you want early access today, I know it comes out tomorrow, but if you want to get access today, just join my email list right now at witsandweights.com slash email, and you'll get an automated response that says, hey, if you want the secret link, let me know. I'll send you the secret link. It's the same link that's gonna go live tomorrow, but nobody knows what it is. Okay, so I'm gonna send that to you. And then tomorrow I'm gonna release a shorter bonus episode that walks you through how it works. So check your email, join my email list, witsandwaits.com slash email, and keep following the podcast for that tomorrow. If you want early access to Fitness Lab, be first in line before everybody else, witsandweights.com slash email. Until next time, keep using your wits, lifting those weights. And I'm gonna talk to you tomorrow with a full walkthrough of Fitness Lab. My name is Philip Hape, and you've been listening to Wits and Weights.

15 Reflections from 400 Episodes of Evidence-Based Fitness | Ep 400

Join the FREE Wits & Weights community and connect with other listeners, get free resources, ask questions, and be part of the next 400 episodes: https://witsandweights.com/email

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400 episodes and 4 years of challenging the fitness industry's myths and proving that building muscle and losing fat doesn't require complicated protocols or expensive interventions!

Today you'll hear 15 reflections from the Wits & Weights journey, from listeners who transformed their physiques through evidence-based training, to world-class strength coaches and researchers who've shaped the field, to fellow podcasters who understand what consistency really means.

Evidence-based fitness and body recomposition work across borders, backgrounds, and goals. Building muscle, losing fat, and getting sustainably strong comes down to consistency, systems thinking, and rejecting the industry's noise in favor of what actually works.

Episode Resources

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Timestamps

0:00 - 400 episodes of evidence-based fitness and building muscle
1:43 - Jo S.: Breaking through training plateaus with strength training
3:09 - Julia D.: How muscle tissue improved chronic health conditions
8:41 - Kevin Palmieri: Prioritizing fitness while building a business
12:41 - Pam Sherman: Strength training for women over 50
14:46 - Dr. Eric Helms: Combating misinformation with evidence
16:53 - Jenn Trepeck: Consistency for sustainable fat loss
18:28 - Sam Brake Guia: Podcast growth and marketing
22:55 - Brandon DaCruz: Evidence-based physique coaching
25:42 - Carol Hanshew: From client to nutrition coach
27:43 - Allan Friedman: Food as a tool for strength training over 40
30:48 - Tony Perri: Flexible approach to building muscle
32:26 - Gabilu M.: Morning workout motivation
34:43 - Mike Millner: Consistency in fitness content
36:15 - Alana V.: Weekend diet protocol for fat loss
38:17 - Megan Dahlman: Strength training consistency
40:02 - Building a strong physique through evidence and systems

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• Transcript

  Philip Pape: 0:01

  400 episodes of Evidence-Based Fitness means 400 opportunities to challenge what we think we know about building muscle and losing fat. Today you're gonna hear 15 voices from the saga that is the Wits and Weights podcast, listeners, world-class strength coaches, evidence-based researchers, fellow podcasters, but most importantly, all my friends who have supported the show in some way. What did they take away from 400 episodes? How does that affect you when you strip away the distractions of the fitness industry and ask the question, what should I know and what should I do with my training and nutrition to get the result I want? Welcome to episode 400. Welcome to Wits and Weights, the show that helps you build a strong, healthy physique using evidence, engineering, and efficiency. I'm your host, certified nutrition coach, Philip Pape. And today we're gonna do something I've never done before because it is episode 400, and I've received 15 separate voice messages from people around the world who shared what this show has meant to them. There's some questions, there's some stories, there's some shout-outs from listeners who transformed their physiques, to colleagues who've challenged me to be better, to guests who've shared their expertise so generously. And I'm gonna add some of my thoughts, a little bit of commentary after each message, but mostly I'm letting their words speak for themselves, and I think you're really going to enjoy it as we together celebrate episode 400. All right, let's get into it with the first message, which is from Jo S, and she is in the UK.

  Jo S.: 1:43

  Hi, this is Joe, listening from the UK. I'm a huge fan of the Wits and Weights podcast, and I look forward to the new episodes each time. Congratulations, Philip, on 400 episodes. Please keep going. Keep it coming. I absolutely love it. I'm a member of the Wits and Weights Physique University as well, seeing some great results. And for the first time, breaking through some of the old habits that have kept me stuck. So thank you, and thank you, Carol, as well, the other coach, for all of your great work on there. Keep going. Congratulations.

  Philip Pape: 2:16

  So that was Jo, and she's in Physique University, as she mentioned. She's one of the very engaged members who is always asking questions when she gets stuck and trying to figure out how to move forward. And I love how she mentioned breaking through old habits. I think that is what systems thinking helps us do. The habits could be very simple and we take them for granted. Like you go to bed at 10:30 every night, and now you have to develop a system to get to bed at 10 every night. I also like how she gave a shout-out to Carol, who is my other coach in Physique University, and she's going to have actually have a shout-out later on in the show. And lastly, Joe is from the UK. We actually have a lot of members and clients and listeners from all over the world, which is an amazing outcome of the digital world we live in and the ability to reach more people. So thank you so much, Joe, for your message. All right, the next one is Julia D from Germany.

  Julia D.: 3:09

  Hi, Philip. This is Julia from Germany speaking, you know who. Wow. First of all, congratulations to episode 400 of your podcast. This is huge. This is amazing. Oh my gosh. First of all, I've learned from you that why I've lost so much muscle over the past years and my my metabolism slowed down so much. And yeah, why I gained much more fat without eating differently. So yeah, I'm into protein now, and the right amount of protein. I learned so much about hormones for women after 40. I learned how important strength training is. I've done it before, but now I'm seriously committed and have regularly done it for several months now, which is the first. And wow, I loved your nerdy episode about what muscle tissue has for advantages as advantages. Because of that, I learned that more muscle tissue will seriously better my chronic health condition, which on the first glance has nothing to do with muscle muscle tissue or anything. So that's why I'm so committed to the strength training now, because I know in the long run my chronic condition will be better gradually. You motivated me to think about my physique with a much, much longer time frame over years, not weeks or even months. You motivated me to go into aggressive maintenance first. So in well, a little bit of head loss, but basically first a recomposition just to gain the first amount of muscle to later then be easier able to lose fat. Yeah. And I'm so looking forward to the cycle over the year with shredding fat in the summer season for to be, yeah, to have a bikini body, you know. And then enjoying all the holiday food in the winter season while also building serious muscle. This will be so much fun. I could say tons more, but just for the moment, I I also love your personality, I love your style, you're so empathetic, you're so client-centered, always respecting individual choices. And at the same time, you are so clear and you're so able to really condense complex information and highlight the main points. So, yeah, seriously, you should take money for your podcast because it's so valuable. Thank you so, so, so much, Philip. I hope there will be tons of messages which motivate you to go on with it because so, so many people need your advice with your personality and your style. Thank you so, so much.

  Philip Pape: 6:31

  Wow, and thank you so, so much, Julia. I don't know where to begin. That was so kind. You basically explained the entire podcast journey in just a few minutes. I love that you took information that is universal in terms of muscle mass, for example, and applied it to a chronic condition you have, knowing that these work no matter who you are. It's just how it's personalized. And that mindset shift to thinking over the longer term is fantastic. Some people don't have very much patience, and that's one of the messages we preach here. And of course, a bunch of other things you said I don't need to repeat because folks could hear that. But at the end of the day, I think your words at the end really touched me the most about empathy and being client-centered and all of that. I personally have gone through a journey over the years. When I was younger in my 20s, I was not that way. I didn't have much emotional intelligence at all. I could be very rude, very defensive to people. And those things don't always get called out on. But when you reflect on yourself and then you see how you treat people and what a difference it makes, the opposite is true in terms of if you can really get into their shoes and understand where they're coming from and understand whatever question someone asks, there's no stupid question in this context, and that is a I truly believe that, but also understand where they're coming from. There's a reason they're asking, there's something they're frustrated with, there's something that they're not getting. And that question comes from a place of curiosity, and curiosity is what we're all about. So those are my thoughts, Julia. Thank you so much for the message. I really, really loved it, and I hope the listeners did as well. All right, so that was two listeners as well as two clients in Physique University. Our next one is from Kevin Palmeri, who is a stand-up guy, a super guy in the industry. He's actually the head of NextLool University, co-founder with Alan Lazarus. And Alan was on the show, by the way, recently, actually last week. But Kevin is a personal mentor and coach of mine. He leads the team that edits this podcast. They do the interview episodes. I do the solo episodes, but they do the interview episodes, which are more complex with the video with multiple people and all that. And so I'm going to let you hear his message, which also includes a question.

  Kevin Palmieri: 8:41

  Philip, my friend, 400 podcast episodes. That is truly amazing, my friend. I am so, so, so very happy for you, and I am so happy to see your success and your continued success. And probably more than anything, I am honored to see you help so many people. You are really, really helping a lot of people. And I hope you know that, and I hope you feel that, and I hope that you accept the recognition that you deserve. So super proud of you, my friend. And it's amazing to see you grow and help as many people as you are. I have a question for you. As somebody who is busy and growing a business, how often are you prioritizing fitness over other things? So when I get super overwhelmed, fitness is usually the first thing to go because it doesn't pay the bills, unfortunately. So sometimes I'll either skip a workout or I'll wake up two hours earlier than I should so I can get my workout in. What are your thoughts on that? And how do you prioritize and how do you choose? And then how do you live with whatever decision you make?

  Philip Pape: 9:52

  Kevin, my friend, thank you for the message. Thank you for the message. I always can count on you to challenge me to think about why I do things and where what the intention is behind it, but also I know it serves as a model for how others might think about similar challenges. So the question you asked about how I prioritize my fitness, I think like any anchor habit that is the priority in your life, it be it's the first part of the stack. And what I mean by that is if I were to plan out my week on a blank sheet of paper, number one, where does my training go? Now, some people might say, Well, what about your relationship with your wife? What about your kids? What about your job and your business? I'd say, Yeah, I'm gonna get those done. But to me, fitness and in this case, strength training in particular is a catalyst for making all of those things way more productive to the point where I feel like the ROI is at least break-even, right? And what I mean by that is the hour and a half I spend four or five days a week is paid back in spades by the productivity, the energy, the mindset, the consistency that I get with everything else. Now that's not the case for everyone. Some people, because of their schedules, because of how much they have to spend on other activities, may have to make other trade-offs like working out three days a week instead of four or five, or even just two days a week, or doing two a days that are small exercise snacks. And these are a lot of the things we talk about on the show. So I think it starts from saying, look, if this is a priority, how can I fit it into my week? And then we're actually doing a challenge called the Strong Finish Challenge in Physique University, where we talk about having a minimum, a minimum viable habit, which I think is what your uh co your partner calls it, minimum viable habit, but also having a bailout strategy. So if your optimal is to go into the gym four days a week, 90 minutes, your minimum might be three days a week for 30 minutes. Your bailout might be a short 15-minute body weight workout two days a week, right? So it's kind of having those different levels. That that's how I would put it, Kevin. And I will admit there are other things that are important to me that I've not done that to, and it shows. In other words, sleep hasn't been as high a priority as I quote unquote should make it for myself, like training, and therefore it's suffered. And I know that and I'm aware of that, and that's a thing that I can pop to the top if needed, if I need to double down. So I hope that answers your question, Kevin. Thanks for challenging me as always. I'm gonna go to the next message, which is from Pam Sherman. And guys, Pam was just on the last episode of the podcast for the Women Over 50 QA, and I've known her for a while. She's a trainer, coach, uh amazing woman in the space. And I'm gonna play her message for you now.

  Pam Sherman: 12:41

  Philip, Pam Sherman here. I am so excited to be part of your journey. It's been amazing to be a guest on your podcast, to be a guest on your Facebook group. You are awesome. I know a lot of people in our well health and wellness space, and I resonate with you so much. You're my people. You try to keep it simple, you try to keep it easy while doing so much research. I know you want what is best for your audience. You want to give them the truth about what works and what doesn't work. You and I have both struggled. We've both struggled with our weight, with our workouts, we've done everything wrong. And now we're on the other side, so we can help as many people as possible get on top of their nutrition, know the right way to eat fuel for their workouts or for weight loss or just for a healthy life. I am so happy that Karen Martell introduced us because I you are one of my very favorite people in this space. Congratulations again on 400 episodes, and thanks for having me be a part of this journey.

  Philip Pape: 13:43

  Thank you, Pam. And you are also one of my favorite people. And yeah, you know, Karen Martell is a through line on this podcast. Um, her ears are are burning. You guys she's gonna be featured in a little bit. And yeah, she brought us together, but we've kept it going from episode 190 when you were on, where we talked about why women over 50 need strength, health, longevity to yesterday's episode or earlier this this week's episode about some QA questions on protein training, all of that. And really, at the end of the day, I just love to hang around people who are always learning, who are improving, who show that age is definitely not a factor when it comes to your health, that we could get after it and yes, help help each other and help others make an impact. And I hope those of you listening to the show feel like this show helps you and guests like Pam having been on the show help you, and that you are sharing with others the message and sharing them this, sharing them this podcast so that they can learn as well. All right, our next message is from someone who probably needs no introduction. So I'm gonna let it speak for itself and then give my thoughts afterward.

  Eric Helms: 14:46

  Philip, my man, just want to say thank you so much for what you do with Wits and Weights. Educating the public and other trainers and other professionals to be more effective at helping others is a huge service. And there's so much pseudoscience, misinformation, and unfortunately disinformation out there that we need more voices and leaders in this space, making evidence-based information clear, understandable, and interesting. It's always a pleasure to be on. And I look forward, if you'll have me, from coming back on Wits and Weights. Keep doing the thing, man. You're crushing it.

  Philip Pape: 15:19

  And that means a lot coming from Eric. Just so you guys know, some of the backstory here. You know, Eric is one of the authors of Muscle and Strength Pyramids, which is one of the things that I read back in the 2019, 2020 timeframe that was a catalyst for me learning more about evidence-based fitness, you know, with the the pyramids themselves, that whole idea of adherence as the foundation, sustainability, and then building up from there of what's most to least important is crucial when it comes to making this work for you. But I also like the idea of making evidence-based information clear and interesting. We've had Eric on for three episodes so far 72, 121, 391. And the first time I asked him to be on, I was completely surprised because I was just getting started. And then I realized, hey, there's a lot of generous folks out there who, you know, they're not like untouchables. They're they're real human beings who we can reach out to and talk to and just have good conversations with and you know, develop friendships and networks over the years. So, Eric, your message really does mean a lot to me, truly. You're definitely going to come on the show again. Keep doing what you do, keep contributing to the research, but also the conversation. And I, for one, will always be on your side in this battle. All right. The next message is from Jen Trepik. Jen was on the show, episode 337. She hosts Salad with a side of fries. Such energy and passion for this. We really hit it off, and you know, we've collaborated on some other things, been talking business behind the scenes, and she's definitely my kind of person. And I'm gonna let her message speak for itself.

  Jenn Trepeck: 16:53

  Your podcast friend and colleague Jen Trepik from Salad with a Side of Fries. Huge, huge congratulations on 400 episodes. Believe me, I know that is no small feat. I'm so excited for you and all that you do for your clients, your members, your community, your listeners. You are truly changing lives. It is an honor to know you and to call you a friend and a colleague. Congratulations again.

  Philip Pape: 17:23

  Jen, thank you so much. I always love messages from fellow podcasters because you really get it when it comes to the business side of this, not only as a coach, but podcasting itself. And what a, I'll say pleasant grind it can be, right? That's the way I'm gonna put it. It's one of those things that takes time to really build the momentum. And I appreciate you calling me a friend and doing this collaboration together. And for those listening, Jen is gonna be on the show again pretty soon. It might be in the new year. She has a new book, and I wanted to come in, have her come on and talk about a specific topic that I think is gonna resonate really hard with all of us. But I'm gonna leave it at that. You guys keep following the podcast for when Jen comes back on. Jen, it's awesome to know you, and we're definitely gonna be in touch. So, our next guest who sent in, I shouldn't say guest, our next listener slash colleague, slash friend who sent in a message. His name is Sam Brake Gia. And I was actually on his show, Mike's Tamillion. He is the co-founder of Podwritten, but he actually explains all of this in the message, and it's kind of an interesting, I'll say, origin story that we went through that I think you'll find pretty cool from a behind-the-scenes perspective.

  Sam Brake Guia: 18:28

  Hi, I'm Sam BreakGear, and I am the co-founder of Podwritten and the host of Mike's Samillions. I first connected with Philip in June 2024 in what seems like very unusual circumstances because I sent him a cold pitch suggesting a guest and he rejected it. Now, most people might assume an interaction like that wouldn't lead to a friendship or multiple collaborations. But I think really early on we saw that how we approached the situation really set us apart from most people. So my method of pitching guests and Philip's thoughtful uh handling of this inbound recommendation really created a foundation for an unlikely friendship because we saw that we both do things differently than than most people are in our industry. And from the start I could tell that Philip had taken so much time to carefully review my pitch and provide thoughtful feedback. And that attention to detail really made him stand out. And I was so appreciative of the insights and feedback that he shared. I could see that there's a reason why he was so successful in creating wits and weights and what made it a standout show. And he would make a fantastic guest for my podcast, is what I thought. And that's when I invited him on. We had a great chat, I really enjoyed it. It was so much fun. And he could see also that I wasn't a typical podcast booking agent, so I'm not in the business of just getting my clients anywhere and everywhere, but I really want to focus on getting them on specific shows since then. I booked multiple right fit clients or guests on wits and weights, and he's also been a key guest on two of my podcast episodes, and I really love those episodes. I'd even argue uh that Philip potentially has better knowledge around podcast growth and podcast marketing than most podcast marketing professionals you'll find online. I also love the fact that he's super easy to collaborate with, he has a really positive attitude all the time whenever we interact. He's very responsive, he's super open to feedback and encourages it wherever possible. And I am really surprised as well by his analytical skills. I'm not surprised, but impressed. And that's definitely something I see coming through from his engineering background. So, yeah, I'm really grateful to be a part of this wits and waste journey, and I can't wait to see where the podcast and Philip go next. Here's to another 400 episodes. Keep up the amazing work, Philip.

  Philip Pape: 20:54

  Sam, thank you for that message. I'm glad the listener can hear a little bit of you and this behind-the-scenes business stuff when it came comes to guest pitching. Guys, Sam did reach out to me. The guest wasn't a great fit, but because we had a cordial conversation and he was interested in the show and the audience and how he could help, it came through as very genuine and honest. And those are the kind of people I'm so gravit, I so gravitate to, and that's why we still have a connection to this day. And it has led to other things. You don't, you guys don't hear about all this directly on the show. I don't talk about it maybe enough. But one of those was other having other guests come on the show and also talking about tactics and strategies behind the scene related to podcast growth and marketing. The whole analytical thing, you know, doesn't just apply to fitness in my case. You guys know I'm an engineer, love to do things behind the scene. He had actually asked me to record a clip about how I use, I think it's overcast for podcast advertising. And so if you kind of check out these other shows of Sam's that I was on, you can hear some of that behind the scenes. But definitely another 400 episodes. I feel like just as the years fly by, the episodes fly by, Sam, and it's totally doable. Uh back at episode 200 or 100, that would have sounded insane, but that's kind of how this thing goes. And I appreciate you and I'm grateful for everything you've done for me. Let's continue to make it happen and do things from the heart and from the soul and really keep pushing positivity into the world, is the best I can put it. Thank you, Sam. Moving on, we have somebody that you guys will know. He's been on the show several times. Brandon DeCruz is a world-class physique coach, host of the Chasing Clarity podcast. And let me tell you, this guy is also so, so generous. He will reach out if you reach out to him and is just passionate about the industry, the science, helping people reach their goals. Again, truly from the heart. Again, these are the types of people I just love to be around in their orbit. So have a listen to his message.

  Brandon DaCruz: 22:55

  What's going on, guys? This is Brendan Cruz of the Chasing Clarity Health and Fitness Podcast. I just want to take a moment to congratulate my friend Philip Pape on hitting episode 400 of the Wits and Weights podcast. That is no small feat, my man. It's been an absolute pleasure being a guest on your show multiple times, going all the way back to episode 58 and watching how much you've grown the platform since then. You've done an incredible job consistently putting out high-quality, evidence-based information while making it engaging, relatable, and actionable for your audience. And let's be honest, you've got the best podcast intros in the business. Congratulations again, my friend. Forget episodes is a milestone that reflects your dedication, consistency, and genuine passion for helping others become the strongest, healthiest versions of themselves. I'm proud to know you and to have been part of your journey.

  Philip Pape: 23:39

  I really appreciate that, Brandon. And for the listener, you know, folks like Brandon taking the time to do these messages really speaks a lot for the type of person they are. And Brandon was on episodes 58, so that was the early days, 99, and then recently 354, you know, so spanning three years been on the show watching this platform grow, but I've also seen him do more and more in the space with his podcasts. We've done Q ⁇ A's together. He's, as far as his craft as a physique coach, if you follow him, say on Instagram, you will see just a constant uh reminder of how he helps one person after another from physique competitors to everyday people just trying to improve their bodies, their health, their longevity, their strength, all of that. And Brandon, I really do appreciate your friendship. I wish I could have you on more. Honestly, like there's so many folks that I love that we, you know, we could have them on, but then I would never make any other episodes. So uh and I really enjoy the QA we did not long ago. So hope, hopefully, listeners get to check that out. We'll throw all this stuff in the show notes for all these guests. It's gonna be an extravaganza. But again, thank you, Brandon, so much for everything you do and the expertise you bring. All right, our next two, I'll say listeners slash former clients slash friends slash current team members are Carol Hanshu and Alan Friedman. I'm gonna play them back to back. Actually, no, I'm gonna play Carol's, then I'm gonna give a little commentary and then Alan's. Carol is, she's a friend, she's a former client, she's now a personal trainer and nutrition coach. She has her own business, but she's also helping us in physique university as an assistant coach in that business. So she's all over the place helping everyone, but especially women over 40, hormones, thyroid issues. She has a lot of personal experience there. And she is so kind, genuine, but also really intelligent and helpful when it comes to helping clients get through specific issues. When we have our two-on-one coaching calls in Physique University, she's right there helping you solve your problems and get the next step. So I'm gonna let player message and you guys can judge for yourself.

  Carol Hanshew: 25:42

  Philip not only helped me achieve my fat loss goal, but working with him also inspired me to give my own certification as a nutrition coach and personal trainer. Philip is the real deal. He's honest, sincere, and will always do his best to get to the bottom of any problem or challenge you might be facing. It's an honor and privilege to work with him, and I'm excited to celebrate this 400th episode.

  Philip Pape: 26:09

  And Carol, the honor and privilege is all mine. Just so the listener knows, Carol has justified all the odds in terms of, you know, chronic health issues and hormones and really getting the strong fit body composition that she's going for. And she's really a role model to people. And you can hear how, you know, she's soft-spoken, but she is so honest and sincere herself. I know those are the words you used. She's also really a whiz when it comes to cooking and recipes and meal planning and groceries and all that fun stuff on the food side that I joking, I joke with her that like those are the things I don't like to think about as much, which sounds odd for a nutrition coach, but you know, we all have our strengths. And anybody who's working in our community, whether it's in our free Facebook group, which you can join anytime, you'll see Carol there, or in Physique University, where she's putting up all sorts of wonderful content. And now she's helping us get ready for the strong finish challenge next month, will appreciate immediately, you know, her the way she thinks very compassionately, empathetically, but also specifically. You know, she she even has a little bit of that engineering mind in her, even if she won't admit it or maybe she will, to really just go after the problem, use numbers, use data, use logic, but also use some creativity and empathy along the way. So, Carol, it's a pleasure to have you on my team. And I'm glad people got to hear a little bit from you today. And those who work with you get to experience that all the time. So thank you, Carol. All right, and as promised, our next one is from Alan, who is also a friend of mine, former client, and he's on the team. And I will play his message now.

  Allan Friedman: 27:43

  Hi, I'm Alan. Before I listened to Philip, I was driven by the low calorie, low-carb mindset. Philip has taught me that food is a tool used to be used in conjunction with strength training and overall activity, with the end result being overall health, and that daily food consumption is not something to be judged, but looked at as a variable to affect change. Philip has assisted me to observe that my body does respond to changes in nutrition and how I adapt to changes in my strength training. Philip has helped me through my journey by encouraging the establishment of goals across the long term so I can see the big picture and where I'm going. Thank you, Philip, for your work with wits and weights and your wise content in the fitness industry.

  Philip Pape: 28:29

  Thank you so much, Alan, for the message. Now, again, for the listener, Alan, you can see is very soft-spoken. I'm very much attracted to people who are kind, are empathetic, are helpful, have nothing but positive energy in wanting to help people, and they've all gone through gone through their own struggles. I encourage you to go way back and listen to episode 77. Alan was on as a guest talking about how after bariatric surgery, he finally found optimal health, optimal strength over 60. And he will be the first guy to reach out and say hello, ask how I'm doing, ask about my kids, ask about anything, but but also he gives and he helps. He helps with the business, he helps with the coaching, he does so many things behind the scenes. Sometimes I forget how much he's doing. And Alan, I'm very, very grateful to you for that. And I know it comes from the heart. You're just a true, truly wonderful guy. And for the listener, what's neat about Alan is he he kind of jumped onto this pretty early when Wits and Weights came out and reached out and said, Hey, I love the show. I'm kind of I'm learning some things. And he kind of learned along with me as I was creating the podcast. And we've bounced ideas off each other a lot, including ideas for the for the app I had the new app I have coming out, wouldn't have been what if what it was if it wasn't for being able to brainstorm with Alan. So never underestimate the power of people and friends and being able to connect. And if you're an entrepreneur or even if you're not, anybody can become a really important part of your life. When you least expect it. You know, uh he went from a listener to a client to a team member. He's a moderator in our Facebook group. And I mean, we're pretty much just friends. Yeah, I coach him, he helps me. You know, we don't like keep a tally. It's just let's lift each other up and upward spiral the heck out of our lives and those of others, and that's how we change the world. All right, so I thought it would be fun for the next message to be another friend of mine who has a little bit of a different style and is still just as, I'll say, helpful and important to me in my life, whether he wants to admit it or not, whether he's rolling his eyes right now, or getting ready yet again to send me an inappropriate reel that he knows I'm gonna completely laugh at and appreciate that he sent it to me. Here he is, my friend, my lifting buddy, Tony.

  Tony P.: 30:48

  This is Tony, client and friend of Phillips. The reason I'm a listener to the Wits and Waits podcast is that it's a refreshing break from typical social media fitness content that either tries to pad the pockets of the hosts, build their ego, or regurgitate content. Philip has been consistent with his very open-minded, understanding, directed approach, whether he's talking macros, barbells, or cardio. He'll never tell you what to do, only give options.

  Philip Pape: 31:14

  Thank you, my man. And I think I have you fooled because the whole purpose of the show is to pad my pockets and to build my ego, but I haven't been able to do that yet. So the fallback is, I guess, to put out the best content I can, and that's what I try to do. And I appreciate you saying that. But also, again, to the listener, Tony's a guy that I can go back and forth and brainstorm on, get philosophical, really get deep on topics and talk about everything from engineering to craftsmanship to philosophy to lifting, of course, to the science to the bros, to everything in between, to politics, really anything goes. And I appreciate you know your openness to hear me out, but also, like you alluded to in your message, lean into that flexibility, that personalization that comes along for the ride, even though there are solid principles in place. And by the way, Tony was on way back in episode 115, talking about our time working together when he was a client, where he lost 15 pounds of body fat, 8% body fat, is big into barbell training, really talked about the whole process of a mini cut that I think you're gonna find interesting. So go check out episode 115 for that. All right, next up we have a listener, Gabelou M from Mexico.

  Gabilu M.: 32:26

  Hi, wits and weights. I am Gabelou Mireles. I'm from Mexico, and I am a listener and fan of this amazing podcast. Congratulations on this incredible anniversary. I am such a fan of everything you share. This podcast is my companion. Every morning that I wake up at 4 30 a.m. It's the first thing I listen to, and it just pumps me up for my workout. I love learning everything that there is to learn about working out, but how to make it really effective for each and every one of us. Thank you so much for all your hard work, for sharing all this information with all over the world, and I hope you have an amazing, amazing podcast for many, many years.

  Philip Pape: 33:15

  Wow, you guys are really encouraging me to go on with this. And I wasn't planning on stopping anytime too soon, trust me. But Gabby Lou, I love how you listen to it at 4:30 in the morning. I don't know if you listen to them the day they come out, but I do set it to release at 4 a.m. And I've toyed with should I do that later? And I'm like, no, I know there's people that go to work out in the morning uh early, and maybe it's something that they like to have. So I really appreciate hearing from you. And guys, I connected with Gabby Lou recently on Instagram. If you go to my Instagram at Wits and Waits, definitely give me a follow there if you don't already. But she reached out and I always respond. I usually send audio messages, we go back and forth. It's a fun place to connect. And so, Gabby Lou, I appreciate the loyalty and the you know, being a fan of the show and reaching out again. And I hope this reaches you as well. Maybe you're working out right now and go after it. All right, thank you so much for the message. The next message is from somebody you guys might know again on the business side, also in the coaching space. His name is the Mike Milner, host of the Mind Over Macros podcast. He is also a long-term nutrition coach of Pop and is a business coach. He actually has helped me a lot with email marketing, with ads, with things like that from an authentic perspective, not a you know, cold sales, sleazy type of marketing that we none of us like when it comes to fitness coaches, but more of an authentic be yourself, explain what it is, be transparent approach. So here's his message. Thank you for sending this in, Mike.

  Mike Millner: 34:43

  Hey, what's up, Phillip? Just want to drop a quick message and say congrats on 400 episodes. It's a huge accomplishment from one podcaster to another. I know what it takes to be that consistent and disciplined, and I just appreciate the work that you're doing. I think our industry needs more people like you who put out true, valuable content and keep doing your thing. And let's, you know, let's do 400 more episodes, as I'm sure you will, and well beyond that. Thanks for all the work that you're doing, and we'll talk soon.

  Philip Pape: 35:11

  Thanks for that shout-out, Mike. And from one podcaster to another, I know how challenging it is to keep that going, but it's also a lot of fun because I know, I mean, you're really good at this of bringing up very current topics from questions and problems that come up in your audience. Literally, the day before you're like, let me get on the horn and record a podcast about it. So, guys, go to episode 123. Again, one of one of our classics at this point, since we're we're at 400 now, it was about the hidden barriers holding you back. Mike is all about psychology. I've learned a lot about behavior and psychology from him, not how to manipulate people, but how to better reach people and connect with them, which I think is so, so important in this industry. So thank you again, Mike. All right, we've got two more messages. The next one is for another listener who I connected with recently, Alana. And what's cool about her message and her experience is she took a very specific episode I did about a specific protocol or approach and applied it and had the results that I talked about. And she did it. She tried it out. She's like, let me see if this works, and she did. So here is Alana's message.

  Alana Van Der Sluys: 36:15

  I just wanted to give a shout out to Phil because I listened to his episode about the weekend diet, which I thought was super interesting. And I was just about to go into my second cut, and I tried the weekend diet. I did it exactly the way he described it. He had a lot of studies to back it up, and it was basically, you know, eating a little bit less during the weekdays and eating more at maintenance on the weekends during a cut to give yourself a little bit of a reprieve. And it was by far the better cut out of the two that I had. I had amazing results, and I have Phil and his research to thank for that. So thanks, Phil.

  Philip Pape: 36:56

  And thank you, Alana. And I hope you don't mind me sharing your other Instagram handle, your business handle, which is at Freedom with Food and Fitness on Instagram. And I will say Alana wasn't pushing the fact that she's a coach or anything. She literally just wanted to add value and say, hey, I listened to this show about the weekend diet. I did it, and it seemed to work really well. And if you're not sure what she is talking about, it's episode 324, and it's based on research that shows that a weekend refeed where you're dieting during the week and then you eat up to maintenance during the weekend might have a slight advantage for muscle mass retention during fat loss and also making you feel better and recovered. So, Alana, thank you so much for doing that, for trying it. I wish anybody listening who hears something that they think might help them would go ahead and take that action, document the results, and send me a message on Instagram at wits and weights. And whether I share it on the podcast or not, we'll have a conversation. And if it worked for you, I really would love to hear it. Maybe it didn't work for you, and you can let me know that as well. It's all good data. And that brings me to the final message. Last, but as they say, definitely not least. And this is someone you are going to recognize because we've collaborated for a while. She's been on the show several times. I was on her show when she had a podcast. Now she's a huge YouTube star, doesn't have a podcast anymore, but that's intentional. And we all we all know and love this woman in the space. Her name is Megan Dahlman, and here's what she has to say.

  Megan Dahlman: 38:17

  Well, Philip, Megan Dahlman here, and it's crazy to think that you have reached 400 episodes. That's nothing short of a remarkable feat. When, you know, in the fitness and health industry and nutrition, we all know that it is so hard just to show up every single day and make those decisions on a daily basis to take care of our body. And your consistency and dedication to simply producing a top-notch podcast shows how great of a coach you are. So much of being a healthy person is being just consistent with the basics and producing, publishing a podcast. It's nothing short of just being consistent with those basic things. And I know that all the work that you've put into the show has reached thousands and thousands of individuals, and it's helped encourage them to take care of their health, to show up, eat, eat good, nutritious, robust meals, and be strong and healthy and just march forward every year into a healthier version of themselves. So we all greatly appreciate just all of your dedication, inspiration, and just energy that you bring to this space. So can't wait to see where the next 400 episodes take you. Hopefully you'll have me on the list. I'd love to come back. It's been always fun to share with your audience. And but but boy, we're all just cheering you on, and we we just appreciate all the work that you've put into the Wits and Weights podcast. Keep up the good work. We'll be in touch.

  Philip Pape: 40:02

  Megan, Megan, Megan, thank you so much. I mean, you're one of the ones in the space that I just truly honor our friendship and our ability to collaborate on the things that the listener cares about so much and values, not just in the nuts and bolts of training, which obviously you have a lot of expertise in, but your point about consistency. And when you do something for a long time with a system in place and you've developed a habit, you develop a routine, it's not that it's automatic, right? You still have to do it. It still can be hard. It still takes trade-off sometimes, sacrifice, but it's almost inevitable because you've set things up that way. And that's kind of where everybody wants to get. I appreciate what you've done for us on the show. You've been on multiple episodes, three so far, 149, 217, and the recent one 349. And it's always a blast. I mean, there are definitely some guests who I have a rapport with. You're one of those. And I really, really appreciate you giving the shout-out here and spending time, as always, with our listeners to teach us and help us become better. All right. I don't want this episode to go longer than it needs to be. There you have it. That was 15 messages from around the world, from around time, with again the saga, the epic that is wits and weights, 400 episodes strong with many, many more to come. And lots of things really stood out for me. I'm not going to repeat my commentary, but a few things just in general. One is the international reach. It's so cool to hear people from the UK, from Germany, from Mexico, obviously from the US. And we have listeners from, I think, well over 100 countries. I don't remember. I didn't haven't checked in a while, but that's just really cool. That's just amazing. Secondly, is all of these transformations that people get by actually taking action on this information. I'm a big podcast listener myself. And I've I've heard things through osmosis that I'll say, hmm, that's interesting. Why don't I try that out? And so you have, you know, Julia with her chronic condition, Alana with a weekend diet, Carol, you know, was a client, now she's a coach. Like all of these things that are happening, I'm so proud and happy to have been a part of with all of you, with the listeners, with my colleagues, with my friends, all of that. And that leads me to the mission. The mission, cutting through the BS, challenging the nonsense in the industry, making evidence-based information more clear, more interesting, hopefully entertaining in a way. And that's what I set out to do because this industry, yeah, it's full of people, like Tony said, patting their pockets, building their egos, regurgitating the same tired contest content. And it's full of amazing people who have it in their heart to help people and do it in a way that is just aligned with who they are. And if they haven't a business in the process doing that, then they should be rewarded for that. That's my, but that is a good form of capitalism, the one where everybody's aligned and it's a win-win for everyone. And then lastly, you know, Megan talked about consistency. Yes, the podcast is being consistent with the basics, but also is taking care of your health and your dedication to showing up, like Brandon mentioned, the engineering mindset applied to the content creation, but also your fitness system and continuous improvement. So, what do I want you to take away from this, be besides everything else I hope we've taken away, is that the 400 episodes is about something that's become, I think and I hope a lot bigger than just me. I'm a person, but it's I wouldn't have done it without having all of you listen and provide feedback and share it and challenging me and helping me challenge conventional wisdom and treating people like adults who can think critically and make informed decisions. And it's about the community as well, like the community of podcast listeners, our Facebook community, physique university clients. Like to me, it's just one big giant happy family. Not all of you know everybody. I know a lot of you, which is awesome. Like, I feel like it's a big family, even colleagues, even guests who've been on the show, even business partners, you know, Eric, Pam, Jen, Brandon, Kevin, Sam, Megan, all of all these great people who push the evidence-based approach forward. So this show exists because of that. It just wouldn't have existed, you know, 400 episodes ago it didn't exist. Now it does. That is mind-blowing to me. It's the questions you send, it's the episodes you share, it's the reviews you leave, it's the transformations you achieve and tell me about. And yeah, I'm proud of 400 episodes, but I'm even more excited about the next 400 because we are just getting started. So I've given you a lot of resources already throughout the episode, like other episodes to check out. I'm not gonna pitch you anything now. All I'm gonna ask is that you let someone else know about the podcast. It doesn't have to be this episode, because honestly, if you've never heard the podcast, this might be a little much and it isn't really exactly the same type of uh format as or most of our episodes. But share an episode that you did like, you know, share one of the ones mentioned on the show or a timestamp or whatever, and then tag me, let me know, reach out to me on Instagram, whatever makes sense. And to everyone who sent a message for this episode, thank you, thank you, thank you. To everyone who's been listening, whether it's all 400 episodes or just this is your first one, thank you to my friends, to my colleagues, my assistant coaches, every guest who shared their expertise, thank you. Here's to the next 400 episodes. Until next time, keep using your wits, lifting those weights. And remember that just like building a podcast takes all the things we talked about today, so does building an impressive and healthy physique. It's consistency, it's evidence, it's systems that actually work. This is Philip Pape, and I'll talk to you next time here on the Wits and Weights podcast.

Q&A - Women Over 50 Strength Training and Fat Loss (Pam Sherman) | Ep 399

Join the early access list for Fitness Lab, a personalized training and nutrition app that evolves with your progress, recovery, and lifestyle so you can build muscle and lose fat over 40 with adaptive, science-based AI coaching:
https://witsandweights.com/email

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Struggling to build muscle or lose fat after 50, even though you’re lifting weights and eating protein? Think your metabolism or hormones are to blame? You’re not alone.

I team up with fitness coach Pam Sherman to answer your most pressing questions about body recomp, strength training, and nutrition for women over 50. We cover how to train around joint pain, boost bone density, eat enough protein, and understand what “lifting heavy” really means. You’ll learn how to manage metabolism, recovery, and hormones, and set meaningful goals that go beyond weight loss.

This episode of Wits & Weights blends evidence-based training and nutrition to help you feel stronger, leaner, and more confident at any age.

Today, you’ll learn all about:

0:00 – How does strength training improve bone density?
5:54 – What’s a realistic timeline to regain lost muscle after 50?
9:35 – How can I stay consistent when motivation dips?
12:11 – How do I train safely with joint issues or pain?
15:05 – Is yoga or pilates enough for strength training?
17:15 – How much protein should women over 50 eat?
21:15 – How do I calculate a sustainable calorie deficit?
28:21 – Does metabolism really slow down with age?
34:12 – Can loose skin improve with strength training?
35:20 – What’s the best way to recover as we age?
39:50 – How can women set meaningful long-term fitness goals?
46:50 – What’s the most essential home gym equipment?

Episode resources:

• Instagram: @pam_sherman1   

• YouTube: @PamShermanco

• Website: pamsherman.com 

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Get notified of new episodes. Listen on Apple, Spotify, or all other platforms.

Then hit “Follow” and you’re good to go!

• Transcript

  Philip Pape: 0:01

  If you're a woman over 50 who's been strength training and eating enough protein, and you've heard all the things about your metabolism and hormones working against you, that building muscles harder and harder, and frankly, you're not seeing the strength gains or the fat loss or body reconf you know should be happening. This episode is for you because today I'm teaming up with fitness coach Pam Sherman to answer all the questions women over 50 are asking about training, nutrition, body recomp. We're covering everything from bone density and joint issues to protein and recovery. You'll learn why the advice you've been following might be holding you back, what a realistic timeline looks like for gaining muscle over 50, and specific tips that make a difference in strength and fat loss while your physiology is changing. Welcome to Wits and Weights, the show that helps you build a strong, healthy physique using evidence, engineering, and efficiency. I'm your host, certified nutrition coach Philip Pape, and today I'm doing something a little bit different. Instead of an interview, I'm teaming up with fellow coach, women over 50 expert, all around great person Pam Sherman. She was on the podcast before, we'll give you a link to that. But today we're gonna do a collaborative QA focused specifically on women over 50. Now, Pam and I are going to tackle those super important questions that all of you have about strength training, nutrition, body recomposition for women who, when you're over 50, we've covered the period of post-menopause and beyond phases of life. And all these questions actually came straight from you, the listener, the women who listen to the show and are struggling with real challenges, concerns about osteoporosis and joint pain, to how much protein do I eat, to what's going on with my metabolism. And neither Pam nor I have actually seen the questions yet. I took a lot of questions from you guys. I smushed them into AI and came up with a curated list. And we're gonna make it a surprise QA, a little twist to make it more interesting for all of you. So, Pam, my friend, thank you and welcome back to the show.

  Pam Sherman: 2:07

  Thank you. It's so great to be here. We always have the best time talking. You could talk for too long, so I know we're gonna keep it in a certain amount of time.

  Philip Pape: 2:14

  We'll keep it concise. I so I have like 11 questions. I don't know if we'll get to them all, but we'll just tackle them. How about that? You want to jump right in? Okay. So the first one is about bone mineral density and strength training, very important topic for this age range. And the question is how does strength training specifically impact bone density, bone mineral density for women in peri and postmenopause? And then, of course, corollary to that, what exercises are effective for the areas that a lot of women care about the most, like your hips and your spine. So, what are your thoughts on that?

  Pam Sherman: 2:45

  Well, hips and spine scream deadlift to me. Uh, truly. Our muscles protect our bones. And I still see a lot of ladies at the gym not lifting enough weight. Anytime your dumbbell has a color, we're gonna put those dumbbells down and we are going to lift heavier weights. That's really weird.

  Philip Pape: 3:04

  Wait, wait, wait. Mine are black. That's my color dumbbell.

  Pam Sherman: 3:07

  Pink, orange, yellow, blue. Uh I think a lot of women, and if you are not certain of what to do, hire a trainer for a session or two to get your forum down. But you're gonna get the most bang for your buck with your basic compound lifts, your deadlifts, your squats, overhead press. You don't have to do bench press, but shoulder press. More load is gonna be better for your body. And that's not more load right away. It's working up to more load, but your muscles always are gonna protect are protective for your bones. So starting now and never stopping, I think is your best bet to help. I have osteoarthritis in my low back. And I like I've been strength training and it is a natural cause in our bodies, but I'm gonna do everything I can to keep it from increasing. So more load, more load, more protein, more calcium-rich foods. I even take a supplement, but I know the supplements aren't gonna do nearly as much as my strength training does for my body.

  Philip Pape: 3:59

  Yeah, I love that you well first mentioned deadlift. It's my favorite lift personally, and it's also one that I tell people all the time can solve a lot of back issues for folks if you do it right. But the heavy is a trigger word because I know when I go on shows and they're like, what does it mean to lift heavy or how should you lift heavy? It requires some nuance and maybe you can help us explore this. Here's my perspective two things. One is that we know the driver of muscle development specifically, not strength, but muscle growth and size, is mechanical tension, which is getting close to failure. And we know that there's a wide range of heaviness, i.e., rep ranges, that can get you there. When we're talking osteoporosis specifically, and you mentioned heavy, I really do think we mean in the strength regime of heavier, more like 60% of your max or higher is the threshold I've learned, where it truly is lower reps and quite heavy because the bones respond to that pressure on the muscles, kind of requiring the matrix inside those bones to stitch back together more densely when you adapt. You know what I mean? That's kind of where my mind goes. And then I've heard other good coaches say, like, yeah, one of the important things is the big compound lifts actually in the like five to eight rep range ish when osteoporosis is a concern. So do you agree with that? Is that what you think of as heavy or is there a wider range here?

  Pam Sherman: 5:21

  No, I definitely do. If you're getting a 10, that's not heavy enough.

  Philip Pape: 5:24

  Yeah.

  Pam Sherman: 5:24

  Um, and if you've never done this before, I want to start with a movement pattern. In fact, I have a couple male clients I just started with. We started with a body bar to get the pattern of the hinge because they weren't hinging. So you have to get the movement down first. And I love what you said that it's great for your back because I know people who don't know about lifting say, oh, that lifting's terrible for your back. I'm like, it's not for your posterior chain, it's great, but you have to have the right pattern for that to work. And then I would say six, eight is even too much. I would say four to six is a great rep range as well.

  Philip Pape: 5:54

  Yeah, it's interesting because if you program eight, then it almost mentally gets to the point where people will not push hard enough and they'll kind of like stop at eight. If you program five, you kind of start getting the picture of what heavy means. Yes. Because you're like, well, yeah. You know, it's a different now. When you get down to like singles and triples, that's a little more on the powerlifting side. That's a different beast altogether. You don't have to do that, but it's interesting. Okay, let's go to the next one. Let's just pop through these. This is fun. So, another muscle training, a muscle-related one, and this is about the timeline for regaining lost muscle mass after age 50, which I think is a great premise on the question that acknowledging we do lose muscle mass, like starting in our 30s, if we're not doing something about it. So, this question is if I'm sedentary now, which a lot of listeners have found this show maybe wondering about training, training curious, what are the expectations? Because we know we're not about quick fixes, we're not about like getting jack swollen six six pack in six months. If you've never trained before, that's not what it's about. What would you say is like a timeline for at least regaining lost muscle mass, let alone building new muscle?

  Pam Sherman: 7:04

  Realistically, nine months to a year.

  Philip Pape: 7:06

  Yeah. Okay.

  Pam Sherman: 7:07

  Um, I it's not that long. It's not that long. And time is gonna pass anyway. It's just hard in our quick fix society where we get I can order something on Amazon now and have it be delivered tonight. I mean, your health really is something that is there's never a quick a quick solution. And where you are right now, say where you are right now is at the top of a mountain. Well, how long did it take you to get to the top of that mountain? 50 years? You can't expect a quick on the other side. Consistency is going to be your best friend and know that a year from now, you could feel 100% different with consistency. That's it.

  Philip Pape: 7:40

  Yeah. Let me ask you about consistency because first of all, I love the quote that time is going to pass anyway. I always say, like, you can't get in a time machine. So let's buckle up, let's be stoics about it and say, what can we control now? But consistency, I heard someone mention, actually, it was Alan Lazarus who was actually recently on the podcast just last week before this episode came out, and on his podcast was talking about when he works with men and women, he hears different language sometimes that resonates when it comes to consistency. That sometimes men respond to that word and respond to discipline more. And then women sometimes respond to routine. What are your thoughts? Being a woman, working with women, are is there language that this is a side tangent, but I was just curious about that.

  Pam Sherman: 8:19

  Well, I think women probably do because we are mostly in charge of, well, when our kids were little, they're breakfast, they're packing their lunches, making dinner, getting to soccer, laundry, and that's our routine for many, many, many years, where it's different for guys. They don't, you know, they're not as much in the day-to-day as in as far as child raising goes. So that probably does resonate more with women. And putting it in your routine does not make you selfish. It's self-care. That's it. And yeah, you hear people say, you know, put yourself first on the list. It's very hard for women to put themselves first. I just want them to put themselves on the list, period.

  Philip Pape: 8:53

  Put themselves in there. Yes. With with everything else. Okay, so building that routine. So you said nine months to a year, which I like that timeline because it's like not so long that it feels forever, and it's not so short that we're unrealistic about it. My opinion on this, so to give you my thoughts, are we're talking about regaining loss muscle mass and training for the first time. You're gonna get a lot of, you know, what we call newbie gains, right? In the first three months, let's say, even the first month, you're gonna find your actual numbers. Like if you start with a movement pattern, like Pram was talking about, and you learn to say body weight squat, then you grab a goblet, maybe, and then you immediately go to a barbell, which you can start pretty early in a barbell. I've heard like I've heard narratives of like, we don't start with a barbell, we'd ladder up, but but you can go really light with the barbell. So it's in my opinion. And it's a very different like center of gravity and slight different positioning. But you start there, and then the first month or two, your numbers just go up and up and up because if you keep the routine of showing up in the gym two or three times a week and squat every time, it's gonna be easy what you did last time. So you're gonna have to go up. That neuromuscular adaptation is all between the brain and the nervous system. You're not gonna see necessarily visual changes in that first month. Probably not. You know, you may, you may not. I don't know. But when you're talking nine to 12 months, now you've got like, okay, the first three months is strength. Then your body has to build more muscle and make your muscles bigger because you just keep pushing it. What are you doing to me now? You you're trying to actually use this thing after all these years. And so it has to get bigger, and that's where you start to see visual changes. The one thing I would caution is like, make sure you're tracking this stuff and have maybe somebody else that gives you an independent perspective because people are down on themselves all the time. Like, women, like, I don't see any change. I'm like, show me your before and after photos. Wow, look at those back muscles popping, like your waist is down, you're looking more vibrant, you've got great posture. And that's just the physique side, let alone the mental changes. So, what what are your? I know you have some thoughts here.

  Pam Sherman: 10:51

  Yeah, women are very hard on themselves. And I encourage them to take weekly pictures because it's very hard to you see yourself every day. It's very hard to see that. But in a picture, you might see your waist coming in, you might see muscles in your back. I mean, it's the little, and you know, before women get in a you could be in a gym outfit, you could be in a bathing suit, you could be something that just shows your body, but it's just for you to see and to take measurements because those inches here and there, you won't see in the mirror. But when you measure, you're like, oh my gosh, I lost an inch off my hips. That's a lot. And to celebrate showing up for yourself. There is no overnight success, but showing up for yourself over and over, I encourage my ladies to keep win journals. Did you drink water? Did you eat enough protein? Did you show up at the gym? Like those are all wins as opposed to, I didn't, you know, X, Y, or Z. Like, let's be positive with your progress.

  Philip Pape: 11:41

  Yeah.

  Pam Sherman: 11:41

  You're amazing. You're showing up for yourself. That's great. And yes, you will see gains. But I also think you have to like do those things every week to see. You don't have to be on the scale, maybe once a month, once every other week if you hate the scale, but you have to do the things to show yourself progress.

  Philip Pape: 11:55

  100%. 100%. And and anyone who listens to this show knows I actually have a slightly more extreme take on scale weight of weighing yourself every single day because there's trade-offs or benefits to that in terms of the psychological aspect, but you have to have some context and awareness of like when you see that number, how not to freak out and understand what it means. But that's a different topic. Yeah, no, I love everything you're saying. And I guess the next question is perfect because we're talking about lifting heavy, we're talking about developing a routine, but we're also talking to women over 50. And the question is about joint issues while training. Some of you already start with joint issues, knee issues, back pain, um, shoulder issues before you even start. And you may feel like that's holding you back. Others who are listening, they're like, okay, I hear what Pam and Philip are saying about lifting heavy. What about bad knees, frozen shoulder, that back pain, you know, because you're probably sitting all day at your desk job. How do I prevent getting injured? Because this sounds like a scary thing, slinging around all this weight.

  Pam Sherman: 12:52

  Frozen shoulder, ladies. Have you gone to see your OB and gotten your hormone levels checked? That is a common symptom of menopause and low estrogen. Literally, it's one of the biggest it really is. When you've got menopause symptoms, frozen shoulder is huge for menopausal women. And for if you've never heard that before and you haven't gotten your hormone levels checked, listen to my friend Karen Martel's podcast. He is amazing about educating you on hormones and menopause. But estrogen can make a huge difference with that. If you have bad knees, oh my gosh, strength training is gonna help your knees because you're gonna strengthen your quads and your hammies and your glutes, which will make your knees feel better. It's gonna do nothing but make your knees feel better. If you have extra weight to lose, losing that weight will make your knees feel better as well. Those are my my first initial thoughts.

  Philip Pape: 13:34

  Yeah, those are great. And I want to add to that, because that's that's an encouragement to just get going with it and see if your symptoms actually improve, like doing a squat the right way. And now you're loading your knees a little bit, but doing it through the range of motion and seeing how that progresses. I guess to add to that would be if you're doing something that's out and out, outright painful, that is something's off there with potentially your form or the weight or something like that. But if you start light and you build from there, your body will adapt to it. And that's an important concept for people to understand. They're like, well, I'm gonna lift heavy. It's heavy for you, which might be like 50 pounds, might be 20 pounds, you know, not 200 pounds, but eventually you get there. And then the other piece, I guess, is if you truly have an injury or surgery you're recovering from, of course, take your medical advice. But also, there are so many ways to adapt a movement with grips, with width, with range of motion. And I've had to go through this myself, ladies, with with my shoulder because I had rotator cuff surgery. And I finally found, like with landmines and close grips and pauses that I can train. And the guy, the goal is how do you train? Not I can't train because I'm injured. It's how do I train not through the injury per se, but how do I train in a safe way? Anyway. Any other thoughts add there?

  Pam Sherman: 14:51

  Yeah, I feel like we need to focus on what we can do versus what we can't do. I had a friend that had meniscus surgery last year, and I'm like, okay, so why can't we just train your upper body and your core? And she's like, Oh.

  Philip Pape: 15:02

  Yeah, yeah, the all or nothing is like so So prevalent. Prevalent. Yeah. Yeah. Um, all right, we're almost at a protein question, I noticed, but the next one is one more training question, and that question four, because I I I love this uh yoga. Is yoga, Pilates, or bar considered adequate strength training for women over 50, or is dedicated heavy resistance training non-negotiable? Okay, this is this is an easy one for us. Come on.

  Pam Sherman: 15:27

  Stop it, ladies. Non-negotiable.

  Philip Pape: 15:30

  Yeah.

  Pam Sherman: 15:30

  I I I have many, many women who love, love, love, love, love Pilates and bar. Fine. However, you are not gonna get that load on your muscles in Pilates or yoga. Do it because you love it and add two minimum days of strength training in a week. If you could do three, that would be amazing. I encourage women to do what they love because you should get joy, some joy of your exercise, and then some exercises do it because it's great for you for your long-term health and wellness. And it actually drives me crazy that women think that Pilates is enough. Like I can't even with that, Philip.

  Philip Pape: 15:59

  Is it because they just love it so much? Or does strength training sound too hard and different? What's the reason or another reason?

  Pam Sherman: 16:08

  Well, I do think women love group exercise with other people, you get those endorphins, somebody's telling you what to do. Strength training, I don't think so, but many do. It's just boring and it's hard. It's hard to push yourself. Uh, and it's just not fun. I mean, I'm weird. I think it's fun. I have a great playlist, I think it's fun, no problem. But many women are not self-motivated and don't know what to do, so they find it a struggle to make that time that 45 minutes to an hour to get to the gym to work out. Nobody's there cheering them on, telling them what to do. It's more of a solitary thing, which if it's all or nothing, yes, go to bar, but maybe find a girlfriend and go to the gym and do your strength training together if that's what it's gonna take. But really for the rest of your life, I think strength training is a non-negotiable.

  Philip Pape: 16:52

  Yeah, I think what you hit on is trying to find the thing that motivates you and that you like about it and maybe integrate it into your strength training and or add in the training, understand that that's important and that's why you're doing it, and then still do one or two of the other things, knowing there could be some trade-offs depending on your goals and everything else. But all in all, that's part of life, right? Is trade-offs to enjoy and stay consistent. Okay, so now we got our first protein question. Question number five. Now, as this episode comes out, guys, you just heard episode 398 was a definitive updated protein episode I did. All the things, okay. So the straight up what the science says, but what are the minimum daily protein intake goals uh in grams or pound per body weight, specifically for women over 50 who are lifting and want to improve body composition? So, what I want to I want to add to that, Pam, I think what she we should answer is what are the differences because they are women over 50? I want to see if if there are and like why, rather than general protein requirements, because they can hear my last episode and I talked it to death. Let's just be specific here.

  Pam Sherman: 17:56

  Well, our protein needs actually increase as we get older because we are losing muscle. So I would say at a minimum, one gram per pound of ideal body weight. So if your ideal body weight is 150, if you can get 135 to 150, like it's not a game of perfection, it's a game of you know, doing what you can. That is so, so important. And I find so many women struggle with this. And I'll say it, it's not hard. You just gotta. I actually enjoy my two cups of coffee in the morning with uh protein powder in it so I can start my day with 30 grams, and I'm ahead of the game there. But we want to build muscle and we want to keep our muscle. And in order to do that, we have to get enough protein in.

  Philip Pape: 18:34

  You know, you mentioned the reason for that is the loss of muscle mass. But are there other factors? Um, because there is this concept of anabolic resistance that I've researched a lot and I still feel like it's slightly not supported as a real thing. And a lot of these things are confounded by the fact that you're losing muscle mass and you're just older because of that. But I have I have seen through the evidence over the years that like women might need a little more than men, older people need a little bit more than younger, independent of some of these factors. But I do like your recommendation of one being kind of the upper limit where you need to be worried about. If you're nowhere close to that, get more, you don't have to go more than that. What are your thoughts on that? Like, I don't know how much of a science you're aware of.

  Pam Sherman: 19:16

  I I am not aware of a ton of science. I just know that women have the hardest time. So for if you've never even logged your food before, I would say minimum 25 grams of protein every time you eat. That includes your snack. So if you ate four times a day, you're at 100. Baseline, start there and then get it to 30 grams every time you eat, and then 35 grams. And what I find is women are like, I just want a little mid-afternoon something. And I'm like, yeah, yeah, have 30 grams with that mid-afternoon something, something. Be intentional with your food. And I know I'm over the top on this, and I'm so passionate about it, as I know you are, Philip. But I'm looking at, I'm almost 60. When I'm 80, I want to feel as good as I do now. And how I eat and how I move is gonna affect that. And, you know, women are a lot of women are afraid to eat more. I'm like, you're never gonna gain weight eating protein. You're just not.

  Philip Pape: 20:01

  Yeah.

  Pam Sherman: 20:02

  Please, your your body's gonna look better when you eat more protein.

  Philip Pape: 20:05

  And sometimes the opposite happens in that you eat more protein, you get fuller, you know, you eat higher quality food, and all of a sudden it displaces things, and you eat less calories, fewer calories. You know, that's what I see way more often. Yeah, you're not gonna overeat on protein. If you ate pure sirloin steaks all day, which you know, there's carnivore people that do that. Seriously, though, like how much could you eat? Like, that's just a good thought experiment of how many calories you actually or bowl of yogurt. Like, I eat a bowl of yogurt and I'm like, okay, I'm done. Like this, I'm pretty full, you know. This is great. But if I ate bowls of a bowl of yogurt all day, I'm only gonna eat what probably my body needs. It's kind of interesting.

  Pam Sherman: 20:40

  Yeah, your protein department, like we went out for a steak dinner, my son's birthday was Monday to a steak place. The smallest steak they had is eight ounces, and I'm like, I can't do that. I can't even, I can barely even eat four. I got the lobster tail instead because I could eat all that lobster tail, but there's a certain amount of fullness that your body's like, I just I can't do it.

  Philip Pape: 20:56

  Yeah, yeah.

  Pam Sherman: 20:56

  So um, when women say, Oh, I had two scrambled eggs, I'm like, you need four or five, like, oh, I can't eat that much. Like, you can.

  Philip Pape: 21:05

  Yeah.

  Pam Sherman: 21:05

  Or have a cup of egg whites and one egg, and then you know, that'll be easier. But really, you are so much more full. I could eat my head size in chips. I could not eat my head size and protein. It just doesn't work like that.

  Philip Pape: 21:16

  It's exactly it. It's exactly. Every time my wife cooks big pork chop or chicken breast, I'm like, you know, it's it's it's protein and I'm full. Like it's just gonna be full, you know. So all I can stomach on the side is some quinoa broccoli or something, you know? Yes. Yeah, no, it's good. Okay, let's go, let's continue on the food train here. The next question is about calorie deficits, which we talked to death on this show. But the again, let's get specific. How should a woman over 50 calculate a sustainable calorie deficit? I like that word for weight loss, which here we like to talk about fat loss as well, not just weight loss, given common issues with tracking inaccuracies, hormone-related changes throughout the cycle and fluid retention. I'm just ad-libbing here, and uh potentially lower BMR, which I assume could mean just women versus men, but also your metabolism tends to decline during peri postmenopause for other reasons as well. Go. Sustainable calorie deficit.

  Pam Sherman: 22:13

  Well, I really like you introduced me to macrofactor, and I really like that. And one other thing that I really think is important is eating different calories on the days that you lift versus the days that you don't lift. Where I mean, until you introduce me to that, and I've done, you know, obviously, as you get older, you get more research in. Like, we shouldn't be eating the same amount of calories every single day. When you put more effort into your lifting, your body needs more food on the days that you're maybe it's doing a little bit of cardio, you don't need as much. So you have to look at your life and think, okay, well, first of all, there's also your online calculators with your daily um T D E, right? Those calculators. I would do those. That's that's a great baseline. And it's really so individualized. If you are working really hard, you are not in a big calorie deficit that day. That's just you just and make sure your protein is spot on so you are not hangry all day long. I find women, you know, when they want to save calories, they're trying to cut back like don't eat a lot for breakfast, don't eat a lot for lunch, and then they they're hangry and then they overeat. Be smart about your food and try to plan it out. When you eat it, like you said, a big bowl of Greek yogurt with some berries, that's a great meal post-lift because you aren't full. Maybe some you know, oatmeal on the side, you want some carbs in there too. And don't be afraid of carbs. You talked about that a lot too, is our bodies need protein, carbs, and healthy fats. All that is going to play in your calorie deficit. And the great thing is, you get to decide what you eat. Like don't look at online food plans. Eat what you would like to eat. That makes such a big difference.

  Philip Pape: 23:42

  Yeah, so you hit on a couple of really good themes. One is just tracking, which we'll talk to the cows come home. You have to track whatever you need to measure. And the other is what you're eating. And ladies, listen, this is a really important point because I'm gonna tie this into a concept I've been like playing in my head with recently. Let's say you're not tracking any of this stuff, but you listen to what Pam says and you focus prioritize protein. I would also argue prioritizing fiber and nutrients, and and nutrients only come from nutrient-dense foods, you know, berries and you know, uh seeds and nuts and lean meats and dairies and all the fun whole foods we have available, the bounty of foods, lots of colors, lots of variety. If you start there and now you're feeling better and you're more satiated and you're performing better in the gym, only then should you say, okay, calorie deficit. Like too many women get it backward. They're like, how do I calculate my calorie deficit and jump into that? No, no, no, no, no. Let's eat really well. Let's perform, let's set ourselves up for success. And then even if you weren't tracking, and this is gonna sound like sacrilege for me, Pam. Even if you don't use MacroFactor, guess what you have to do? See how you feel and is your body trending up or down, and then change the amounts. It's actually that simple. So a sustainable calorie deficit should feel like something that's just a tiny bit hungrier than usual, that's a tiny bit less than usual, and your body fat is trending down slowly over time relative to maintaining. And if you were then to track that with a calorie app, you would see it should match something like a few hundred calories below your maintenance, you know, and it's gonna change constantly.

  Pam Sherman: 25:20

  You can't measure what you don't track. So I have had 99% of my clients go, I hate tracking. I'm like, they said it's hard. I said, you know, it's hard. Having a baby's hard. Tracking your food is not hard. Literally. No, it's not hard. It's not hard. It doesn't take very long. We eat a lot of us eat the same stuff all the time. It might take an extra five minutes a day. If it's important to you, it's worth doing. I love the TikTok. I love my animal videos on the TikTok. I can also track my food. Like people make time for the things that they want to do. And if it's important enough, if it's important enough for you, you can absolutely do it. And I will say this also can we please get rid of that stupid 1200 calorie number that was has been around forever. That's for a very small person, like maybe five, two or less for an adult woman. That's way, way too little. And what happens is you might gut it out and get there, and then you're starving and you will overeat to compensate. Your body will always try to catch up. So throw that number out the door. That is not for an adult-sized woman for the most part.

  Philip Pape: 26:16

  Yeah, no, a hundred percent. And if you're hearing that and and feeling like, no, no, no, that is me. There's probably something on the expenditure side, right? On the uh metabolism side we want to look at. And it might be the lifestyle factors, it might also be hormones. Because again, we're talking 40s, 50s. There definitely could be a thyroid thing going on. There could be, but I don't want to fear monger, because many cases that's not. Um, could be a testosterone, could be all these things. Uh something in your blood work, could be a nutrient deficiency, right? Could be all those things. I would look, that's going back to how are you eating? How are you feeling? How are you performing? Tracking is gonna accelerate that process because it'll give you more targeted awareness of all those things. And then I was gonna address your timing comment. The cycling is also very individual. That I think that's what you're getting at is like you don't have to do it in one way. You know, you don't have to have the same calories every day, nor do you have to do up and down every other. Like it could be all on the weekends that you get your extra calories. It could be very fluid and it could go with your cycle as well. Not that there's a benefit in cycle-based eating or training necessarily, but that you feel hungrier and so you should eat more then.

  Pam Sherman: 27:22

  I think all the tracking is good. Tracking your sleep, tracking your steps, you know, tracking your workouts and noticing like if you keep a journal, like noticing the days you're hungrier, they're probably your lower body days if you're lifting because you recruit so much more muscle. So you're gonna be a little hungry on those days, and that's okay. But it really is important to know yourself inside and out. And on the days when you're not as hungry, go, oh yeah, I didn't lift today. I just walked, and that's okay. That that's fine. You might, you know, bake a couple calories for the next day. But really becoming the expert on you is so, so important.

  Philip Pape: 27:51

  Yep. We have a challenge coming up uh called the strong finish challenge in physique university. And I'm doing something I've never done before, Pam, but it reminded me of that is a lot of times you talk about a minimum viable habit or product, right? Like here's the minimum, no zero days, here's the thing I want to do, but here's the minimum. I'm gonna take it a step further and say there's a bailout strategy. In other words, even if you can't do the minimum because you're shopping for Christmas presents, you've got all the events, you've got all the parties. Is there something even less than that? To your point of like, if you're tracking it, at least you can have a streak of something. Like I went out for a five-minute walk, not a 20-minute walk. It's still a five-minute walk, you know? It reminded me of that. So um, yeah, no, good stuff. Okay, so continuing on, kind of related, is a metabolism question. And this is a good one. This is gonna hit on something that is, I think, highly misunderstood. And that is the assumption that your metabolism slows down with age. Okay, and I don't want to gaslight anyone, but the research is very clear when they've looked at populations all across the planet from the Hadza tribe to Western obese populations, that our metabolism is pretty steady from the age of 20 to age of 60, and then it starts to decline, most likely because we've lost so much muscle mass and are so sedentary that it just can't help but reflect that. So when we talk about our 40s, 50s, and maybe 60s, what the heck is going on when it looks like our metabolism is slowing down, and what do we do about it?

  Pam Sherman: 29:16

  I think people are just in general less active. They are at their desks more and they're not moving as much. I mean, think about your 20s, you're in college, you're working on campus. I was a waitress. I walked a million miles a day as a waitress. Um, I ran marathons, I was really, really busy, and your life slows down a little bit unless you make time for it. If you make sure you walk every day, if you are fitting in, putting yourself on that list and getting your strength training in going to yoga, fine. Go yoga is great for some mobility. I mean, we are losing losing mobility as well, but making your health a priority and fitting it into your week. I don't think our metabolism has to necessarily go down if you are staying active as you age. Now, if you're like, you know what, I just want to sit, I'm getting old. It's I'd rather be doing nothing, then yes, your metabolism is going to go down and you will see the effects of that. We see the effects of it all around us. It was very interesting, Philip. I was just in the Paris airport last month. No overweight people.

  Philip Pape: 30:13

  Okay.

  Pam Sherman: 30:13

  They're active. They walk everywhere. They are a culture of walking, walking. Same thing in Greece. I was in Greece. No heavy people, really, the only heavy people sound Americans. Our American society is set up to be less active as we get older. So I think 60 is an age where like I'm just kind of coast. But if you want to feel great, if you do not want your metabolism to go in the tank, lifting, daily walking, eating for your health. I mean, I think we can do things to reverse that statement.

  Philip Pape: 30:41

  Yeah, I agree. The guys on Mind Pump were talking about going to Disney World and all the people on scooters. However, they mentioned the difference between Florida Disney World and California Disneyland. California had far fewer of those people, and there was just like more of a culture in that particular area. What's it Anaheim, I think, is Disneyland? Yeah. Where obviously it must be more, you know, there are stereotypes about the South being having a lot of health issues that are true stereotypes regarding diet and things like that. But it, in other words, it's in our control as human beings. It's not inevitable. I guess the the thing I want to challenge both of us on then is what about the hormone piece? I know that's Karen's like bag. She and I talked about the metabolic storm and how, oh, what if you are doing all these things and still something's there? Is it then inevitably hormones? How big of a piece is that? What are your thoughts there?

  Pam Sherman: 31:31

  I love hormone replacement therapy. And I really encourage women to find out more about it. That it's not awful for us. It's actually awesome for our health. And it helps our bodies run like they should be running. It's keeping your hormones stable. When we're in menopause, they start to tank and really keeping your hormones stable. You're doing everything you can to keep feeling great. So if you are not on anything, certainly you your energy is going to go down without that testosterone. You're not going to be sleeping as well. You're getting hot flashes, which means you are not going to want to work out. You're not going to want to prep food. Like it's going to affect every part of your life. So, yes, it could be a hormonal storm in your body. And you can also get them replaced and see how great you feel. So everything is in our well, I shouldn't say everything, a lot of things are under control. Some women can't take it for certain reasons. If you can, I would suggest it because it just means you're like fine-tuning your health by keeping your hormones in balance.

  Philip Pape: 32:24

  Yeah, get yourself baseline tested. Um, any men who are still listening to this or decided to listen through this, same thing, like get it tested. Um, we do performance blood work, but there's lots of great practitioners. You know, we talk about Karen and I can hook you up with Pam when it comes to a lot of this stuff as well with connections. But yeah, it's it's more and more important. Hopefully, the healthcare industry will slowly shift over toward a better recognition of women's health and hormones because obviously it's not there yet, but I hear see inklings of it starting to happen. So maybe 30 years from now.

  Pam Sherman: 32:54

  I hope so, because I know I'm have my hormones done through Karen's group and they want you to feel optimal. And it's interesting because I get it's out of pocket, of course. So I go to my regular OB and I'm like, so can I get my testosterone cream at this level? I'm like, oh no, that's way too high. It's not. It's actually how I feel my best. So I will continue to pay out of pocket because I want to be optimal. I don't want to just be okay.

  Philip Pape: 33:17

  I agree. Yeah. It's uh I know some of the practitioners will also call it like physiological levels, which I like that term as well. I like optimal and performance and physiological. Like all those terms kind of mean the same thing in our world of it's not the normal population range. It's shifted up to a feeling better range, which then some regular doctors might say is too high or unnecessary. So when you think of physiologic range, it's like, where were you in your 20s and 30s? If you were there and perfectly safe, why couldn't you be there in your 50s and perfectly safe? It's, you know, now men trying to get up to 3,000 total testosterone for perform, you know, for the gym, that's that's a different thing. There's risks there. So um, yeah, no, that that's good to understand about this whole metabolism thing. I think it also ties into all the research. Uh, Lauren Calenzo's Semple of Mass, I drop her name all the time because I love her. She's great. She is constantly pushing back on the narrative that the sky is falling for women, like for everything. And and it's not really true. It's just that there are lifestyle factors and some other things that are exacerbating it for women in that age range. And it's not to, again, gaslight you guys. It's to say, you've got power here. Like you can go after it. And then once you do the things, it removes constraints that were there and it reveals whatever constraints were made, you know, like the hormones. Anyway, I'm going on a diatribe.

  Pam Sherman: 34:36

  No, I've heard women say, like, I'm just gonna suffer through it. And I'm like, why? Yeah, yeah, yeah. You don't have to suffer through it. You can feel better. You can actually sleep better too. That let's not suffer. Come on. Let life is hard enough. Let's feel great during this stage of life.

  Philip Pape: 34:49

  Feel great. And so part of feeling great, moving to the next question, is the physical expression of all this. And a lot of women who have gained a lot of weight over the years and then they lose the weight, they lose some fat, and they're trying to work on their, you know, how they look and feel, they got loose skin. Let's talk about loose skin. The next question is about women who've lost a lot of weight and they have loose skin. Is this purely a cosmetic thing? Can it be helped with like how much muscle you have, your nutrition can be helpful with any of that? Should you get surgery in certain circumstances? Like, what are your thoughts around loose skin?

  Pam Sherman: 35:19

  I think a lot of that's genetic. Okay. Whether I and if you've lost a hundred pounds, I don't know how much strength training is gonna help that. Like, I really think a consultation with a plastic surgeon, it would be great. That's amazing. But that's a whole like fifth grader that you lost. Now, if it's 20 pounds and you're a little loose, I I think you always have to give yourself a year of regular working out to see what your body's gonna do. You can't make any snap decisions, but with a lot of loose skin, that's really such a personalized decision.

  Philip Pape: 35:46

  Yep. I can't add to that because it's not my area of expertise. I have seen that the degree, the degree of it matters and your body does adapt to some extent. But like obviously, if you have massive amounts of loose skin, you know, it's your personal choice how you want to deal with that. But just do the things you can do and then see what's left. Kind of continuing our theme today. Okay, recovery uh is the next question, of course. Recovery strategies. And the question here is really about recovery being harder when you're older. You know, recovery time is a little bit longer. And so there's a lot of information out there about supplements, mobility work, sleep hygiene, mindfulness, meditation, yoga. The list goes on and on. Walking, what should you prioritize? Like if you had to pick one thing to recover from your training, that's gonna assume your strength training and not over-training. Actually, that's maybe a part of the answer, right, Pam, is don't overtrain. What are your thoughts on recovery? It's a big topic.

  Pam Sherman: 36:43

  I think you absolutely have to have rest days. And rest days can include walking. I think we should walk every day. I know me personally, on days I do legs, my legs always feel better if I'm walking afterwards. But days of no strength training. Like you need you need rest. Stretching, I'm a big proponent of stretching. I always have been. I think stretching is great. I'm gonna drop the name um Travis Elliott on YouTube. He has a yin playlist. It hurts so good because he's holding the stretches for like three to five minutes. Stretching, great. And it's like a meditation and stretching, so it's two for one. If you like yoga, great. But I really think you have to know your body. I was just having this conversation. I just told you this with a gal who wants to train for a marathon. I told her, you can't work out every day. You have to actually, she's 62. I said, you have to let your body have rest days. You're not gonna perform unless you give your body the rest it needs. And yes, sleep hygiene, crazy important. I mean, sleep is our number one thing for recovery for everything. So it's a good sleep, total rest days, daily walking, stretching, really important, and not beating yourself up for doing less. We need to do less so we can do more in the gym.

  Philip Pape: 37:53

  Yeah, I think maybe the psychological piece of the doing less is maybe you replace that thing with the thing you're doing for yourself and count it as that. In other words, like you can call it active recovery. I don't like that phrase so much. But like, if you like to work out every day, well, on your rest day, your workout is your walk. You know what I mean? Like, like put that as part of your routine. So I was thinking, I want the listener to think about when they've gone on vacation to a beach, you know, they're stressed out of their mind from their work, from their lifestyle. And they finally go to the, they go to a beach, the weather's beautiful, they get to relax, they're not thinking about training, they're not tracking even, they're not maybe not thinking about food and they're just enjoying whatever food, maybe alcohol. I don't care. You know, you're just relaxed and enjoying yourself. And like from a parasympathetic nervous system state, you're maximizing it to the fullest. However, you get there. Maybe not alcohol, but anyway. Um then you get back, and of course, you reached out to me or Pam ahead of time, and you're like, how do I deal with my not working out for a week? And we're like, don't stress it, it's just a week. And then when you get back, you find that all you're stronger than you were, and you find that like lifting feels great and your joints feel better. What does that tell you? Like that tells you that we need this time, and sometimes it happens accidentally. Like for me, if my schedule gets so hectic, I just can't get that training day in and just skip a training day. I don't feel guilty about it anymore because sometimes I come back and now I've skipped two weeks on that session, like that Wednesday session I haven't done in two weeks. All of a sudden my lifts all go up again. I'm like, this is crazy how that works, right? So we need it.

  Pam Sherman: 39:24

  But your body needs rest.

  Philip Pape: 39:27

  Sleep and sleep is a big part of that too. Oh, don't get started on sleep, right?

  Pam Sherman: 39:30

  That's uh and can we stop shooting all over ourselves? Sometimes you shouldn't. And look what happens. You you are more rested. So that next session, your body's like, let's go.

  Philip Pape: 39:41

  Yeah, for sure. So I mean, I guess the long and the short of it is what Pam said is first, are you doing too much and not giving you yourself space for rest? And then pick a few things that are the most important low-hanging fruit for you. And that could be sleep, that could be the stretching, something else.

  Pam Sherman: 39:59

  Well, look at your whole week. I mean, I know I'm a former over-exerciser. I'm just gonna say that I used to run marathons, I used to probably run seven days a week. I just way too much. No strength training. All I did all the things wrong. And now when I help, I have some runners that I'm training. Like, do we need to do a junk mile? Do we need to do a three mile run? I don't think you do. I think you could do some upper body strength and do some stretching and help. Like, what is your long-term goal for yourself? And you want to feel good doing this, whatever you're doing next year, five years, 10 years. So doing less is gonna really benefit you later on. I mean, if you felt better two weeks later, that's still on your body, like rest is best, really.

  Philip Pape: 40:37

  Exactly. And you just mentioned aligning with your goals. We have two questions left, and I'm gonna flip them around because the last question was gonna be about goals. Let's talk about that. Okay. And the question is just how can a woman set meaningful long-term fitness goals beyond the superficial like appearance or beyond weight loss, that center on capability, aging gracefully, you know, the things that, you know, as we get older, we start to value these things more and we want to kind of latch on to those and get motivated and push on those. What do you think?

  Pam Sherman: 41:07

  Well, I think it's good to pick, like I just, my girlfriend, uh, she's 59, she goes, I want to do a pull-up before I'm 60. That's that's a good goal. And I told her exactly exactly how to do it because it's not easy, but there is a way to get there. Do you have a like a squat goal you have? Do you want to be able to do a full body push-up? That's very hard for women. Like, I would pick out physical things that are a challenge to you. And then once you get there, set another goal. But yes, we all want to look at our clothes and all the things, but it's good to have a physical challenge to work on. And then when you get there, you're like, oh my gosh, I did it.

  Philip Pape: 41:39

  Like it feels really good. That's a really good one, Pam, because I know I can blather on about like process-related goals and habits and blah, blah, blah. But the idea of like still making it about some outcome to help drive that process, but an outcome itself that makes it more meaningful is beautiful. Like that's goal, right? So physical could be competition, it could be, you know, if it's if it's food related, I don't know, what would be a good like food-related? Do you even need a food-related goal? Because if you're trying to get a training goal, it kind of forces in the right nutrition. But what would be a good food goal?

  Pam Sherman: 42:11

  It depends what you struggle. If you struggle with protein, getting 125 plus grams of protein a day for the next year, that would be hard to do for a lot of women.

  Philip Pape: 42:19

  Yep.

  Pam Sherman: 42:19

  But you guess, but you have to track to be able to do that.

  Philip Pape: 42:22

  Yeah. So that's see, that that goes to a conversation I had with again, Alan Lazarus. We talked about meta skills, how there's like meta skills, skills, and micro skills. And like to me, the grams per protein a day is like a micro skill. And the skill is just consistently getting protein, and the meta skill is consistency, you know, how it like abstracts up. So trying to get your first pull-up, you then have to map it back and reverse engineer and say, like, okay, what is the escalation process to get the pull-up? What do I have to do three days a week or one day a week or whatever to get there? You know, you have to break it all the way down. So with a protein goal, let's brainstorm it real quick, Pam. Is that enough to say, like, I know I need X per day? Or is there something more meaningful, like medium to long term, that would drive that?

  Pam Sherman: 43:10

  Well, I think for women, we're so used to not thinking about ourselves. We have to think about ourselves and look at our day. What's realistic? You know what? Getting 30 grams of my coffee, yummy and delicious, easy, easy way to start the day. Greek yogurt, one meal a day, super like and it's like two servings because I want to get over that 30 grams. Thinking about the meals that you like. And of course, if you have dinner with your family, that's a different story. But the first, you know, your coffee, breakfast, lunch, you can control that and thinking, what do I like? And have it's okay to have boring meals on rinse and repeat that you like that keep you satisfied, but it makes your life easier, makes grocery shopping easier. And then dinners, you know, they can be more than three or four because they're probably for your family. But really reverse engineering your whole week to go, okay, what are my breakfasts this week? What am I gonna pack for lunch? What are my non-negotiables? What am I not gonna have? If you're a teacher, there's a bunch of holiday treats in the room, you're not gonna go there, or you're just gonna have gum or mint and avoid that. Like literally think about every part of your week and how you're gonna hit those goals. It's a lot of saying no, and it's a lot of thinking, what am I gonna do? How am I gonna create a successful day for myself every day?

  Lisa: 44:16

  Hi, my name is Lisa, and I'd like to give a big shout-out to my nutrition coach, Felipe. With his coaching, I have lost 17 pounds. He helped me identify the reason that I want to lose weight, and it's very simple longevity. I want to be healthy, active, and independent until the day I die. He introduced me to this wonderful little app called Macro Factor. I got that part of my nutrition figured out. Along with that is the movement part of nutrition. There's a plan to it, and he really helped me with that. The other thing he helped me with was knowing that I need to get a lot of steps in. So the more steps you have, the higher your expenditure is, and the easier it is to lose weight. When it's presented to you like he presents it, it makes even more sense. And the other thing that he had was a hunker guide, and that really helped me. So thank you, Villa.

  Philip Pape: 45:00

  We just had Halloween and uh when Chuck Retreating, and you because you mentioned the candy, and it's like those are super calorie dense, and I know I'm getting off track, but like even I enjoy the occasional Kit Kat or Reese's or whatever. I think I told you this on I on IG, and I don't know if you were horrified or not, but that's me. It's like my idea of flexibility, right? But I know they're so calorie dense that I'm like, even just one little mini Kit Kat's like, you know, 120 calories. And so I'm like, okay, I'm just gonna have one and I'm gonna build it in, I'm gonna pre-log it, and now work back from that. And it's like, okay, that's in there. Now let me get my protein, let me get this, that. And you mentioned the one or two meals a day that you can start with. I do, I love that idea, especially breakfast. Maybe at the top of the list, and maybe lunch is secondary, only because so few people get enough protein at breakfast. Like lunch, they might, you know, maybe they have a lot of turkey in their sandwich, they have leftover chicken or something from dinner, maybe. But breakfast, I almost never see people have enough protein because you have it's like breakfast foods we get from growing up in America, where like cereal, bagels, muffins, maybe oatmeal. That's like starting to get protein, but we don't often don't have eggs. Like I grew up thinking eggs and bacon are like a fun weekend type thing at a diner or like on the weekend. I'm not gonna have eggs on a Monday, you know? So um, anyway, I it's a great idea. So, ladies, think about that one meal a day that you just don't get protein and how are you gonna do it? How are you gonna do it? It's you know, make it happen.

  Pam Sherman: 46:22

  Well, and you can use convenience foods like Fair Life is a great shake. I just saw Chibani came out with one for people who are not way-based or gain house when they're all at Costco. I've seen those. If you had that with your breakfast, you're gonna get to 30 grams. So you don't have to make everything yourself.

  Philip Pape: 46:37

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. There's competition now among the processed food makers for higher protein foods, which I don't think is the worst thing in the world. It's not bad. Um, like oikos brand Greek yogurt. Um, I forget what it's sweetened with. It might have artificial sweeteners, you know. Um, but I recommend it to a lot of people if you can, if you like, if you're okay with the ingredients, you know. I think they they use either artificial sweetener or or stevia. It might actually be stevia, and and it's fat-free, but because it has some vanilla flavor in there with a stevia, you know, it tastes great and it's a ton of protein. So look for those options.

  Pam Sherman: 47:09

  I am gonna say I love powdered peanut butter and Greek yogurt.

  Philip Pape: 47:12

  There you go. Yeah, like PB2 or something.

  Pam Sherman: 47:15

  Oh with a little bit of brown sugar swerve.

  Philip Pape: 47:19

  It's like a beef in a cloud. I love it, love it. And it's easy, it's easy to make. And then ninja creamy is a whole other thing. I should do a whole uh episode just about that. That um, my actually kids got me for was it my birthday? Yeah, it was my birthday just a few weeks ago. They got me a ninja creamy high protein recipe book. I was like, this is great. You guys are awesome. So, all right, so the last question we have today is, and this is a good one to end on. For a beginner, woman over 50 who is maybe intimidated, intimidated by the gym, you know, not used to going, maybe anxiety over the gym, maybe doesn't have a lot at home, but wants to build a home gym. Let's focus on that. What's the most essential home? So, this question was exercises with minimal equipment. I want to challenge the question and say, like, let's address the equipment too, because you may need to invest in some more equipment. What are your thoughts just on this very common problem?

  Pam Sherman: 48:11

  Well, I would say you can do a ton with your body weight. There are so many YouTube videos out there, and I have a bunch myself on my YouTube channel. Bodyweight exercises start with body weight. Get a mat. You want to stretch on the mat. Dumbbells are great, but I feel like women would not buy heavy enough dumbbells to that's a fact.

  Philip Pape: 48:31

  Like nothing truth right there.

  Pam Sherman: 48:33

  Nothing under 10 pounds. But and and Facebook Marketplace is a great place to buy used workout equipment. So I would definitely go on there. Um, and it depends how much space you have and where you live. I live in California. I can walk outside all year long, so I would not buy a treadmill. If you are in the East Coast, you're you know, winter's coming, treadmill might be a great option. Uh, what are you looking for? Cardio, I mean, I hope you're gonna do strength, but I would say a mat and some good, like a kettlebell. Kettlebells would be great to start but body weight for a month, see how you feel, and then work from there, but get your body moving first. And then you might be like, all right, this is boring, go to a gym. I would highly recommend go to a gym. Because most people, I used to actually, I worked at Linda Evans Fitness Centers in the 90s. She was a big deal back. I'm a lot older than you, Philip, but she was a big um TV star. And when we got trained, 95% of people who have equipment at home do not use it. They use it for clothes hangers, they use it for everything else besides. So I would say if you live within eight minutes of a gym, join a gym. But if you want to start at home, find home workouts that are for body weight and then get a friend and go to classes and then get a trainer and be in the gym.

  Philip Pape: 49:46

  Yeah, there's some common themes there. I see all the time with clients as well. So, what one theme, as you mentioned, is don't use the excuse of not having equipment to not start, get started. And maybe getting started at home is the lowest friction thing for a lot of people. But then within a few weeks, you're gonna find you're too strong for some of these exercises. And then it like gives you the bug of, okay, what's my solution? You got to kind of keep pushing that and and be and get ahead of that. Like, where's the nearest gym? What do they have? Go visit it. So I have clients who like across the spectrum, some will say, you know, they've got a sweet home gym set up, and I'm like, good to go, or hey, my husband has barbells. I'm I'm like, good, let's start using that. And they have a coach to kind of push them to do it. And like you said, not 95% of people don't use their home gym equipment. So you gotta evaluate what's keeping you accountable. And then the I'll say, like, is there a commercial gym? And sometimes people are just in rural areas or they're ranchers or something, and it's like, you know, 40 minutes away. I don't even want to spend 10 minutes going to the gym, me personally, but that's because I will work out at home. So it's a whole spectrum of like, where are you starting from? Love all that advice, Pam. I also think getting gym equipment on Facebook, getting gym equipment from like all these sad CrossFit gyms that are closing that have to get rid of their equipment. Um, there's not many left now, but they were closing a lot over the past few years. And yeah, just uh no excuses. Just get strong. Get strong and have fun with it.

  Pam Sherman: 51:12

  Well, and really, we talked about group exercise. It's a fine place to start. I find women don't push themselves enough, but that's a great place to start. And then be like, okay, I can do more. Then grab a friend and get a trainer, do a double training session and start from there. But you always want to be progressing. I have a girlfriend who takes classes and she goes, Some of these ladies have not changed their weights in class for six months. Yeah, you are not gonna see results by doing the same thing over and over. That's the definition of insanity, right? So you always want to be challenging yourself.

  Philip Pape: 51:40

  That's exactly it. That's progressive overload right there. So, all right, that's all the questions that I have. But I always like to ask one final one is is there one do you think women over 50 are asking a lot that we didn't really touch on?

  Pam Sherman: 51:54

  Yes. And I'm sorry to break your hearts, ladies. Peanut butter is not protein.

  Philip Pape: 51:59

  Peanut butter is very specific.

  Pam Sherman: 52:02

  Nuts are not protein. Do not grab a handful of nuts and think you're doing yourself a favor. I have said that over and over and over, probably for the last 20 years, on you could be eating 600 calories of nuts. And if you're trying to lose weight, that could be more not half your day's calories, but a lot of your day's calories in a handful. Um, and I just had a lady this week who just said, you know, well, I love my peanut butter and jelly. I said, okay, but you're not eating for your goals. That's eating for comfort. And sometimes you have to break up with a toddler inside of you and say, okay, you're not getting any protein. And you're not having only two tablespoons, you're probably having four or five, because nobody can just have two. It's too delicious. So if you are serious about your goals, I you I you have to eat for your goals. And it that that doesn't mean eating bad stuff. What do you like? Do you like chicken? Do you like fish? Do you like steak? Do you like pork? Do you like turkey? Eat what you like protein-wise and get enough fiber, 25 grams a day, I would say minimum. And then really prioritize that protein and fiber at every meal. But so many women think avocado toast, almond butter toast, peanut butter and jelly, that's a good meal. I'm like, that's not a good meal. And that's so much fat. And in my experience, I'm not a doctor, nutrition or nutritionist, women don't do well on a ton of fat. They don't get enough protein, eat more protein, and then let's see how you feel. Sorry, sorry.

  Philip Pape: 53:18

  No, it's true. Uh, a lot of that is a vestige of like the paleo and keto world because they pushed a lot of those recipes that end up being super, super high fat. I was in that world for a while myself. Listen, I'm a big, not big. I wish I was big. I'm only I'm an average guy. I'm a guy, so I'm bigger than most women, and I eat about 2600 calories for maintenance right now. And I have 20 grams of peanut butter a day in my oatmeal. That's all the peanut butter I have. And I intentionally include it in there because I like the taste of what it does to my oatmeal. And that's a little over a tablespoon. And I, but I have to measure that out because if you take a big spoonful and dump it in, you'll find you're already past that amount. Peanut butter is so calorie dense. Yeah. And I include that in my oatmeal. My oatmeal is like 325 calories, and like half of that is the peanut butter. Like that's it, it's super dense. And when you mention nuts too, nowadays my thought on nuts is like a nutrient source, like to supplement in little amounts. So, like if you need some selenium or um other nutrients that are found in certain nuts, I think you think of it as like almost like a supplement you're adding in in small sprinkled amounts. Because you're right, if you just grab a handful, that's like 500 calories right there of whatever nut it is, even though they're delicious.

  Pam Sherman: 54:29

  So and so many people think they're healthy, so they're fine. And yes, they are healthy, but not in that quantity.

  Philip Pape: 54:35

  Yeah, because in nature, you'd have to like you'd have to grab them one by one, you'd have to break them open, you have to peel, yeah, you have to take them out of the shell and all that. Yeah, exactly. All right, that was fun, uh, Pam. I think we covered a lot of great questions. Definitely watch your peanut butter, eat for your goals, track, lift weights, do all the fun things. Hopefully, we covered it from some fun angles today. And Pam, I'll just leave with where can people reach out to you so you can continue your conversation here?

  Pam Sherman: 55:01

  I'm on Instagram and TikTok at lowercase pam underscore sherman one. I'm active on those, so you can reach out and, you know, well, message me, be happy to talk to you. I think it's never too late to reach your goals. I would love to help you. I've been there, I've gained weight, I've lost weight, I've helped women for 28 years on their health journey. And there's no quick fixes, but consistency will definitely help you get to your goals. And I'm sorry, peanut butter is not awesome.

  Philip Pape: 55:28

  So if you need help with peanut butter and you're picking up what Pam is putting down today, please definitely reach out to her. I love the community of coaches we have, you know, throughout the industry and on this show. And like it's an abundance mentality here because we can all help the right people if they need it. So reach out to Pam. Pam, thanks so much for doing this. It was kind of a last minute, guys. Like, I invited Pam like last week. We said we need to get together for a fun QA. Let's do it. She said yes. So thank you so much. I appreciate you, and thank you for coming on Wits and Weights.

  Pam Sherman: 55:55

  Always a great time. Thanks, Philip.

How Much Protein You Really Need to Build Muscle (Not What You Think) | Ep 398

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How much protein do you need to build and maintain muscle?

Do you need to hit the "leucine threshold" for muscle protein synthesis?

Is there an "anabolic window" after strength training?

Does per-meal distribution, timing, and amount matter?

Today we're revisiting the latest evidence on PROTEIN! Whether you're eating 250 grams daily or struggling to hit 100, this evidence-based breakdown will help you dial in your nutrition strategy for maximum muscle gains without overthinking macros or wasting money.

Episode Resources

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Timestamps

0:00 - What the research actually shows about protein intake
5:28 - Daily protein targets for muscle building
10:56 - Why more protein doesn't mean more muscle gains
14:40 - Per-meal protein distribution and the leucine threshold
21:06 - The anabolic window myth and when timing actually matters
24:40 - Protein quality - animal vs plant sources for strength training
28:17 - When high protein intake backfires (and steals your gains)
31:42 - Common protein mistakes lifters make (and easy fixes)

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• Transcript

  Philip Pape: 0:00

  How much protein do you actually need? You've seen everything from the bros saying you need three grams per pound, hundreds of grams of protein, to the minimalists who say just barely over the RDA. Meanwhile, some coach on Instagram is telling you you have to have exactly 30 grams of protein per meal, and anything more than that gets wasted. And my thought after all these years is the devils are in the details, but it's about nuance more than anything. And so today we're gonna go back to the research, the meta-analyses, the data across hundreds of studies to answer the questions that actually matter. How much protein per day, how much protein per meal, and does timing matters? Welcome to Wits and Weights, the show that helps you build a strong, healthy physique using evidence, engineering, and efficiency. I'm your host, certified nutrition coach, Philip Pape, and today we're gonna again cut through the noise and conflicting advice on something very important that we all care about, and that is protein intake for muscle building. I think this topic is overcomplicated. You have so many different voices from supplement companies to studies to Instagram social media influencers to science experts to bros, all telling you different things. And I think there's a lot of outdated myths as well about absorption and anabolic windows and all of these. So we're just gonna go back to what the totality of evidence actually shows. We're not gonna cherry pick anything, we're not gonna rely on bro science. We're gonna take decades of what we know from everything and simplify it to the targets you want to know. So let's start with why everyone is still confused about protein. If you've spent any time researching this topic, and many of you have, you listen to podcasts that you hear talk about it all the time. Here's yet another episode from Wits and Weights, you've probably encountered five different recommendations at any one time. And they all claim to be science-based and they all conflict. And that's as simple as it is as to why it's confusing, because you you hear me talk about a range of, say, 0.7 to 1 gram per pound. And I pretty much stick to that even to this day. We'll get into that. But I've seen much higher numbers, 1.2 to 1.4 in some cases, when you hear the you know, protein modified fast community or the rapid fat loss, or the, you know, if you're an athlete, you really need a lot more. I've seen a lot recommended because you're a lot older or you're a woman, so you need a lot more due to inefficiency. I've heard round numbers like, hey, you know, big dudes that are trying to lift, you gotta get at least three or four hundred grams of protein, right? And then on the other end, you have people coming out and saying, you know what, the more we see the research, the more we realize that the threshold is actually much less. And there's some truth to that as well. And then there's somewhere in between where people are arguing that you have to get down to is it about your ideal body weight, your current body weight, your lean body mass? Like, how do we calculate all this? And that's another point of confusion. And then there's the debate about how much do you eat per meal? Can you absorb more than a certain amount of protein at once? You know, 30 grams, 40 grams. You've heard about the 100 gram study where they looked at 100 grams, and that seemed to be fine in terms of muscle protein synthesis, and maybe it's superior. And do you need protein frequently throughout the day, or can you have it just once or twice? So I think a lot of this comes from every time a study comes out, we like moths to a flame, gravitate toward what it says and give it a lot of importance. And then when the next study comes out, we like to use it to say, oh, look, that thing was wrong. Here's the other thing, and it creates a nice hot take. There's also supplement companies involved here, and you know, who knows what to believe when it comes to that. I'm not the type to say, well, just because it's funded by a company means the research is flawed. But I also am not surprised if if you're trying to sell whey protein that you want people to eat as much whey protein as possible. Now, the good news is we have a lot of information on this. We have meta analyses which pool together hundreds of studies and data across different populations and trading statuses, ages. And that's the other thing is training status, right? Are we talking about people who lift and perform and athletes and those of us who listen to this show want to build muscle, or are we talking about the general sedentary population? And sometimes it actually doesn't matter. Believe it or not, sometimes there is a minimum, no matter what, that you're going to need to, for example, hold on to what little muscle you might have, even if you're not building it. But if you're listening to wits and weights, you care about building and maintaining muscle as effectively as you can. So let's go to the next section, which is the number that everyone wants to know total daily protein. For most people, lifting weights and trying to build or maintain muscle, the research consistently supports a range of about 0.7 to one grams of protein per pound of body weight. That's it. Super simple. Don't get hung up in, you know, is it 0.7 or 0.8? Is it target body weight, ideal body weight, lean mass? Just don't get hung up in that because the 0.701, first of all, it's a big range and your body weight's going to be changing. And secondly, it's it simplifies it so it's practical and is more than enough to get the job done. By the way, in metric, that's 1.6 to 2.2 grams per kilogram. So if you weigh 150 pounds, it gives you a nice wide range of about 105 to 150 grams. If you weigh 175, that's 120 to 175. If you're a 200-pound person, so a lot of you guys out there, my height, who are like 5'9, 5'10, are kind of in that range, you know, 180, 200, 220 in that range. Then you're talking 140 to 200, right? Not 300 grams of protein. Now, some of you have heard that you need way more than that. And somehow, and there's good hot, there's a lot of hot takes today. We're like, well, I'm hearing all this stuff about lower protein ranges, but really, you know, serious lifters and athletes and guys who want to get big just need a ton, a lot more than that, right? You see this with the big jacked influencers, like you need at least 250 grams. You need 300 grams. So can you eat more protein? Sure. Will it hurt you? Probably not. Okay. However, if it starts to displace other important macros and nutrients and foods and makes it harder to be practical, that itself is a huge consideration when we think of adherence and the benefits of fats and carbs as well and other nutrients. Will having that much more protein lead to more muscle growth? No, and that's the point, is like you don't need it. But if you like more protein and that's a great way to eat for you, and you're getting enough of everything else, it's fine. So the protein's kind of an interesting one in that there is a minimum you want to hit on average, but there's not really a maximum, but you also don't need a lot more than a certain amount. And there are plenty of meta-analyses on these that show a plateauing of lean mass gains starting at around that 0.7 grams per pound. Now you're thinking, oh, 0.7, I thought you said 0.721. Well, that's the point. 0.71 starts to get diminishing returns, but still a worthwhile set of returns for most people if you're lifting weights. And then it really starts to drop off at one. Now, there are corner cases like rapid fat loss where you're not eating very much and you're trying to hold as much muscle as possible. There are cases to be made for going above one gram per pound, right? So, in a fat loss phase in general, we know that higher protein preserves muscle mass while in a deficit. So I'm perfectly okay saying, you know what, going up to 1.2 grams per pound might be a worthwhile experiment for you. It's worth trying that. Now, it's going to be hard to do because your fats and carbs are limited by the calories remaining and the carbs really take a hit. So for some people, they actually feel less energetic because of the fewer carbs. And for others, it helps them because of, for example, satiety, and they do see higher lean mass retention. If you're older, over 50, over 40, even, slightly higher protein can probably overcome some of your anabolic resistance. That actually is a thing where your body has a reduced sensitivity to the muscle building signals, and you're giving yourself an extra little advantage because you're just not as efficient. If you're a competitive athlete, you're training at very high volumes. Again, you might benefit from the upper end. These are the tails of the curve, right? When we talk about a normal curve in a study, these are the tails, the extreme ends of the curve. And I don't talk in extremes here on this show. I try to give a decent target for most people. And then if you've gotten there consistently as a foundation, well, now you're ready to push into other levels. Don't try to jump all the way. I doubt you're a competitive athlete if you're not already getting enough of the foundational protein, right? And I'll say most people who think that they're under-eating protein, they are able to get where they need to be once they start tracking, tracking accurately. That's really it. And you can track in a number of ways. You can track using a food logging app like Macrofactor or MyFitness Power, whatever. You can also do it just manually. You could do it by quantities and portions. If you are eating, let's say four meals a day, or let's say three meals plus a snack a day, and every single one of those has a decent amount of protein. You know, like a third of the plate is some sort of lean protein, animal product, dairy, like yogurt, cottage cheese. If you're eating plant-based protein, you're gonna need more quantities to get that, right? Like an oatmeal or a quinoa or something like that. Obviously, protein shakes, you know pretty much exactly what you're getting. Then you, then you know where you're at and you know where you need to be. And that's really the first step for many of us, just to have that awareness. Again, even if it's just visual quantities and portions. And I think people eating a lot of protein who just love to eat a ton of meat. I know ranchers who just get unlimited cow, you know, meat, and they're up in 200, 250, and they may not be aware how much they're eating. Same idea. It's like, hey, now we can balance it down and give us some rooms, more room for a little bit of those fats, but especially the carbs. The carbs, I know this episode's about protein, but they all work together. And to me, not having enough carbs can be its own major detriment for a lifter, especially in say fat loss when the calories are tight, but also even when muscle building, if you're jacking that protein up so high, and let's say you're eating 3,000 calories, guys, and yet you're only getting 120 grams of carbs, that's a huge missed opportunity to jack that up to 300 grams of carbs by just dropping some of that unnecessarily high protein. All right. And that's just a fact. I've seen it happen. I've talked to plenty of lifters, really good coaches in the space, and they all agree like you don't need that much protein. So 0.7 to 1 grams per pound still stands as a really great range. All right, next, let's talk about distribu distribution throughout the day, because this has evolved as well. The per meal protein, I think, does matter, and it maybe it matters even more than people think, but not the way that you think it matters. So there are still claims that you can only absorb so much protein at once, you know, and you'll hear numbers like 30 grams. And that's complete nonsense. Your body doesn't waste protein after some arbitrary threshold. If you eat a hundred grams of protein in one meal, your body is still going to use it and still stimulate muscle protein synthesis over a longer period after that meal because you have so much protein. So it doesn't magically disappear. You don't have to worry about that. But spreading protein across multiple meals has lots of other benefits that are worth exploring. Okay, this is where the nuance comes come in and the the details. So we know that every time you eat a protein-rich meal, you do spike muscle protein synthesis, and the signal peaks a few hours after eating and then gradually come back comes back down. So if you eat protein frequently enough throughout the day, you're creating multiple peaks. Whereas if you eat most of your protein in one or two massive meals, you get fewer peaks. But the difference between those two extremes isn't as big as we used to think. That's that's the thing I want to say is that I still believe the evidence tells us there's a slight advantage to having multiple meals from that perspective, spreading throughout the day for muscle protein synthesis, but it is small enough that practical considerations to me are more important, like your digestion, eating balanced meals, those other things. So I I wanted to mention that, yeah, there might be a slight advantage, but also there's things that offset it. There's trade-offs. And I would say if you had to pick a range just for practicality and even distribution, for most people, that's gonna be like 25 to 45 grams of protein. Like you don't want to have just five grams of protein in a meal unless you're you're just saying, look, I'm not even thinking of having protein in this meal. I'm having this meal because of carbs, or it's a post-meal workout without protein, whatever, something like that. But for the most part, if you're going to deliberately have protein, you know, aim to have some substantial amount, 20, 25, 30 grams in there. And then the upper limit doesn't really matter, right? It all depends on your size and your age and how much you're trying to eat a day. Us a petite female trying to eat 100 grams a day, you know, has a little more flexibility on that versus a man trying to get 200 grams a day, you know. So if you're like a 200-pound lifter, then if you're gonna have three to five meals, you do the math, you're gonna need like 30 to 40 five grams per meal on average. Keeping in mind that your dinner might have 70 grams, which lowers than the averages for the rest of the meals. But if you're only like 150 pounds, then that comes down to say 25 to 30 grams per meal. Now, the minimum is another point of conversation here, that 25 grams. There's still evidence that shows us leucine, leucine is one of the essential amino acids and one of the most important ones that triggers muscle protein synthesis, that you need two and a half to three grams of leucine per meal to maximize the signal. Again, it's a matter of degrees. It's not like a all or nothing. But again, just to be smart and practical about it and then stop thinking about it after that, it getting a minimum of, say, 25 total grams per meal includes roughly that two and a half to three grams of leucine, assuming it's mostly high-quality protein sources that have the leucine. Remember, protein has essential amino acids, but they don't always have all of them. Animal products do. Most plant products don't. They have to be combined, with some exceptions. I think quinoa might have them all. It's definitely not a deal breaker if you have a diverse diet. If you're vegan or vegetarian, it just makes a little harder. You have to be a little more intentional. That's really all it is. We don't want to fear monger on this stuff. So, eggs, dairy, beef, poultry, of course, whey protein is probably the highest quality, which is why I'm not against using whey as a little bit of supplementation in your diet. And they will give you that roughly 10% of the protein as leucine, which means at least 25 grams gets you at least two and a half grams of leucine. Does that make sense? So, again, plant proteins, you'd need more than that to hit the threshold. And so combining plant proteins and eating more high bigger portions of those is gonna work really well. And you just have to watch out for the carbs and fats that come along for the ride. Right? There are protein powders that are vegan, though, like pea and rice blend that will give you a similar advantage as whey. So, in practice, if you're eating, let's say three meals a day, just have protein in every meal. I mean, that's really the solution. I prefer you have just balanced, balanced meals and feedings. I get that you might want to have an afternoon snack with a couple of cups of berries, let's say. Okay, fine. I'm talking about ones that have substantive calories, make them balanced. And so let's say you have to hit 180 grams a day of protein, like I do, that's 60 grams per meal if I'm eating three meals. Now, I tend to eat four, if not five times a day, depending on the phase. So I only need, say, 40 to 50. Now, if I have a really big protein shake that right there, that's 60 grams of protein, all right. Well, that covers a good chunk of the protein right there. So just do the math. Avoid a pattern where you're like 10 grams at breakfast, 10, 20 grams at lunch, and then 130 grams at dinner, because you're also gonna have issues with digestion, practicality, meal planning, whatnot. But if it's a natural part of your pattern and it works for you, what matters is the total protein. Most of all, I just wanted to address the distribution and timing anyway. Now, we're talking of optimization here. There is one thing that I want to mention real quick, give a shout out to our sponsor, Cozy Earth, because when we talk about training, nutrition, protein, everything we do here when it comes to strength training and fat loss and muscle building depends on recovery. And we know that the foundation of recovery is sleep. And I am a huge fan of Cozy Earth's bamboo-derived sheets. I have a set of my own. I'm getting another because it actually annoys me when we have to wash them and I have to go back to the regular sheets. So because I really love these. They're super comfortable, they're temperature regulating, they wick away heat and moisture. I run hot at night. Lots of you guys might do that. Now that it's winter and it's cold, it actually still feels amazingly temperature regulating. So it seems to be able to handle whatever the actual temperature is in the room to keep you comfortable and calm. And this could be a game changer for you because that is part of getting restful sleep, you know, deep in REM sleep. I also like that the company gives a hundred-night sleep trial. That's a long time to try them out and return them for your money back. They give a 10-year warranty. You can test them for like three months and return them hassle-free. Think about you spend a third of your life in bed. That's 2,500 hours a year. You're investing in your gym membership and your training and potentially your coaching, your nutrition. But what about those eight hours a day? Are you optimizing those as well? So go to wits and work wits and weights.com slash cozy earth and use code wits and weights for 20% off. Again, the bamboo derived sheet set, that's my favorite. They do have lots of other products. Just go to wits and weights.com slash cozy earth and use my code wits and weights for 20% off. All right, so let's get back to protein. And we talked about total protein, we talked about distribution. Now let's talk about timing because I see a lot of anxiety from people who are asking me questions about protein. And some of it has to do with like, do I need to have protein right after my workout? When do I have protein, etc.? So the anabolic window, this is something that used to be talked about a lot more. I hear less and less of it. It is a theoretical window, like 15, 30 minutes after training, where you must consume protein or you're gonna lose all your gains. I want to be clear. It's almost nonsense. I'm gonna say it that way. It's an exaggeration, a significant exaggeration. Because yes, there is a period after training where your muscles are primed to respond to protein, but it's several hours, sometimes even longer than that, depending on when you ate before training. And total daily protein intake is what still matters absolutely the most, more than the distribution or the timing. But all of these things are part of your experiment. They're part of, hey, if you're not doing this, try it and see if it makes a difference for you. So if you train early in the morning, let's say 6 a.m. and you train fasted, but you eat at seven or eight, that's fine. I mean, you you'll get used to training fasted. For most people, I find they actually do better when they eat before they train, but not everybody. Some people are cool with this. If you train at noon and you eat lunch at one or two, again, that's fine. If you train in the evening and then you eat dinner within a couple hours, it's fine. Like that's it. Don't overthink it. The only scenario where I think post-workout timing becomes really important is that scenario I just mentioned where you train, you train fasted and you haven't had protein in like many, many, many hours. You actually will probably feel better if you have some protein a little bit sooner, but it doesn't have to be 30 minutes. I mean, within an hour or two, I'm just saying don't wait hours and hours and hours and hours because that could give you a suboptimal result in terms of your gym time, which is we're trying to maximize that. I think what matters more than post-workout timing is consistent protein intake throughout the day. Oh, sound familiar. It's the last thing we talked about. And there's research that compares like front loading your protein versus evenly distributing. And again, the even distribution shows slightly better protein synthesis, but it shouldn't override the practicality of it that we've already discussed. So that's really all I have to say is just if you train fasted, eat within a couple hours. If you've eaten protein before your workout, like I most I recommend to a lot of people a banana and a whey protein, you know, whey protein at least half an hour before you work out as a minimum. Because that way you get some fast digesting, easy on your stomach protein and carbs. And the banana is pretty low fiber and it has electrolytes. That's just one thought. Okay. Try that out. Then when you work out, yeah, you've got many hours before you have to eat after that. Most of us are gonna feel great, though, having some protein and carbs within an hour or two, anyway, to kind of refill that glycogen. But it's not like you're gonna immediately train again. So it's cool. It's cool, guys. Okay. All right. Now let's move to where your protein comes from and protein quality, because this is yet another area that is highly fear-mongered on social media. Protein quality. And usually it's people trying to sell you something that is, in their mind, in opinion, higher quality. And this could be a supplement company that says, oh, we have clean ingredients. And I get it. Look, if you if you formulated something that you're really proud of, people find it delicious and it makes their body feel good. And they had trouble with other products that had things like additives, dyes, artificial sweeteners, sugar alcohols, blah, blah, blah. And that's a selling point for you. I understand that. This is capitalism, as long as you're not lying, right? As long as you, you know, I get it. But oftentimes they stretch the truth a bit by suggesting that the other product is so far inferior because it doesn't have the same level of quality and therefore it can't help you with building muscle. Look, pretty much protein is protein, and I say it that way in the sense that the same source of protein. Like if two protein bars have whey protein, it's still whey protein, despite all the other ingredients around it, right? They're two different issues we're talking about. And I would say what makes something high quality in this context is just two things. Does it have the complete amino acid profile? So that would be an animal-based protein or a combination of plant-based proteins like pea and rice. And does it have reasonable leucine content, which is solved by what we just said? So they go hand in hand, right? Animal proteins, eggs, dairy, beef, poultry, fish, whey, they check the boxes easily. And plant proteins can totally build muscle, but many individual sources are a little bit lower in one or more of these essential amino acids. But it's a simple solution, just combine them throughout the day. And if you're if you are a vegetarian or vegan, I would hope that you have a thus have a very diverse diet. Now, I've known what I call dessert vegetarians who don't even eat vegetables and eat a lot of like processed foods. I'm not talking to those people. That that's a problem for omnivores and vegans and vegetarians, right? So I'm talking about if you eat whole foods, you have a diverse diet, you have enough foods in there to cover all your bases. For people who don't eat meat or animal products, that's rice and beans, soy and grains, peas and hemp, more total protein from plant sources to compensate, things like that. It's not a big deal. I would so if you're vegan or vegetarian, in other words, I would go back to my first topic today and shoot more for the higher grams per pound just to cover your bases. And also if you're over 40, when it comes to protein quality, again, is it more important? It's only important from a sense of are you able to absorb enough of what you need? And so I always like pushing it a little bit higher, just a little bit, you know, more on that 1.0 rather than the 0.7. If you want to push to 1.1, 1.2, perfectly fine. Perfectly fine. Okay. This is more optimization, not make or break. If you're in that range, you're good. Okay, the next topic is when does more protein become counterproductive? I alluded to this already, but I had a special topic on this because the idea is, okay, well, if protein is good, more protein is better, and even more is even better. Up to a point that's true. Past that point, you're gonna make your diet just less balanced and you're gonna make it less practical. And maybe it's gonna be more expensive too, because usually it costs more to have more protein in your diet. And so now you're displacing other nutrients, other macros, potentially wasting your money. And we mentioned how muscle protein synthesis plateaus around it starts plateauing at 0.7 grams per pound, and then going beyond one offers minimal additional benefit. So the point of revisiting this topic is simply if you want enough carbs for energy to keep your stress low, to help with your hormones, to help build muscle, to help preserve muscle, if you want enough fat for hormone support, for taste, you know, for having a delicious diet, then that's gonna be the offset to having so much protein in your diet. And I've definitely had clients who are big protein eaters and it was almost, you know, challenging their philosophy of existence to ask them to drop their protein a bit. But if you're listening and you're in that camp, the way I suggest doing it is actually a fairly, how do I put this? A fairly meaningful switch as an experiment. Meaning if you eat 250 grams of protein, drop it by like 40 grams a day, you know, to like 210 or even 200, and give all of that to carbs. Because remember, protein and carbs are the same energy density, whereas fat has higher energy density. So you can basically swap one for the other. So if you drop 50 grams of protein, you can increase 50 grams of carbs. See what that does for your biofeedback, for your hunger, your digestion, your energy and sleep, how you perform in the gym, all of those things and see, because you might be surprised. You might be like, whoa, I was actually missing carbs all this time. And I'm reassured that I don't even need that much protein. So this is my new balance. Pretty cool. So just a quick recap: take your body weight, multiply by 0.7, that's your minimum, and that's in pounds, guys, right? Or 1.6 if you're doing kilograms, and that's your minimum. And then you can kind of go up from there based on preference and balance. And push toward the higher end if you're a little bit older, push toward the higher end if you're definitely into performance and athleticism and lifting. Push a little higher if you're in fat loss. Definitely push higher if you're in a very aggressive fat loss phase. Stop stressing about the window, just eat within a couple hours after working out. Spread throughout the day because it's pretty much pretty practical and you will maximize muscle protein synthesis, but you don't have to have it at every meal. You don't have to spread it out. It just tends to be more practical. Focus on quality, and quality is simply diversity of your foods and enough of it. That's it. Pretty simple. So before we wrap up, I do have a few, I'll say myths or mistakes people make that I wanted to address based on your questions and comments to me over the past few years. So the first one is saving all your protein for dinner. If you're eating low-protein breakfast and lunch and trying to have all this at dinner, I'm not saying it's bad to do that. What I'm saying is you end up getting stressed because this is where I hear somebody say, I haven't hit my protein, but I'm almost at my calories. What do I do? Should I try to hit my protein and go over my calories? Or should I stay here and hit my calories? And I'm like, okay, the problem here isn't the answer to that question. The problem is that you got there in the first place. I don't really care about the answer to that question. I mean, usually I'll say, just hit your calories and be done with the day and take the loss and the next day preload your protein better. That's all. You know, spread it out. That's that's why you do that, because we don't want to try to get 100 grams at dinner. The next thing is that, you know, people dismiss plant proteins or it's really an afterthought. And we're finding more and more potential benefits to just having more plants in your diet in general. So, you know, not just fiber, but you know, polyphenols and compounds, vitamins, nutrients, so many reasons to have plants in your diet, you might as well bias that toward protein-containing plants. And so it behooves you to learn a little bit about which foods contain more protein than other foods. Like oats and quinoa come to mind as having more, you know, various uh grains, uh pasta products, cereal grains, are crazy high in protein as well, right? Like just bread. People are surprised how much protein is in bread if you have a sandwich. Obviously, you get the carbs along for the ride. People are like, well, that's processed foods. Look, it's a matter of degrees, okay? We talked about the anabolic window, so I'm not gonna hammer that home again. We talked about thinking more is always better. Okay, the next one I have is you know, ignoring overall calories, right? It's not just about protein. Yes, I think if you're not paying attention to anything right now and you start adding in protein to every meal because you're under-eating, that's a great first step. Then I would add protein in every meal as well. I mean, uh fiber in every meal. So once you got protein and fiber added to each meal, take this additive approach. You start to get in these really good foods for you on your plate. It starts to displace other things. But then at that point, you still might be overconsuming. Now, maybe you're underconsuming too, different issue. The point is there is an aspect of energy intake that has to be, you have to pay attention to. The good thing about protein is it's the most filling macro. It also burns the most calories being digested. So a lot of people when they add protein in, especially when they double or triple because they were far under consuming, they find that their hunger signals regulate better and they eat less, they eat fewer calories after all, even though they're eating more calories from protein, if that makes sense. So, just all together, if you start your day with protein. Your breakfast in a meaningful amount. That's where a lot of people don't even have that. That's your action for today is look at your breakfast. If you don't have at least 25 grams of protein, how can you change that? And that's kind of the momentum builder or the catalyst to get you going. So the last thing I'm going to close with here is really about meal planning in general, because hitting your protein targets consistently is about structuring day to day what you should eat. And that's all it is. So I have something called the Meal Planning Advisor GPT. It's a chat GPT, GPT that I created and I've trained it. It's inside Physique University. So anybody who's in there gets access to it. If you're not in Physique University, what are you waiting for? Join us, witsandwaits.com/slash physique. Use my special code for podcast listeners. It's FreePlan. And you can get the custom the free custom nutrition plan as well. But once you're in there, this is one of the many tools we give you. And what I love about this tool is I've trained it with our philosophy of flexible eating, with lots of stuff from my brain and from what the science has taught me that's super flexible and practical. So it's essentially a conversational way to say, okay, where do I start? I know I need to get more protein. Here are my macros, or here's what I'm trying to do, here's what I like and don't like, and it will prompt you for things like that. And here's your meal plan. Like here's what you here's a potential meal plan. And then you tell it what you like to eat, how much time you have, what your goals are, and it generates that for you, whether it's a single meal, the a daily meal plan, the weekly meal plan. It could give you a grocery list, all that fun stuff. This is one of the aspects of AI that I really love because it's information. I think information should be free. Now I'm telling you to join a paid program to get access to this. This is a GPT that I spent time and effort training, and I want to give that value to our clients and members. That's one of the reasons they join us. Obviously, you can go to AI and do this stuff yourself, but the Meal Planning Advisor GPT curates it all for you ahead of time. It's trained ahead of time, so it'll give you what I'll call the right answer instead of you having to chase down and play around with it. And of course, in physique university, you get all the tools, support, training templates, community support needed, and courses to help you lose fat and build muscle and get to your goal in a much more efficient way. Go to wittowace.com slash physique. Use my code FREEPLAN to get that custom nutrition plan. And I hope that answered all your questions about the big things in protein. If I didn't add answer a question you have about protein, it's probably because it doesn't matter. And I don't mean that to be a jerk. I mean that to take it off your mind, take it off your chest, and not even not even worry about it. But if you do have questions, you know how to reach me. Until next time, keep using your wits, lifting those weights. And remember that your body is capable of incredible things, but it needs the right fuel, the right type of fuel, the right stimulus over time. One of those is protein. This is Philip Pape, and I'll talk to you next time here on the Wits and Weights podcast.

The Most CRITICAL Meta-Skill for Fitness Consistency (Alan Lazaros) | Ep 397

Want to build your fitness meta-skills? ⁠⁠⁠Join Physique University ⁠⁠ and get a FREE custom nutrition plan using code FREEPLAN at:
https://physique.witsandweights.com/

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Why do so many people who know how to lift weights, track macros, and prioritize recovery still struggle to stay consistent long term? How do you design a fitness system that actually survives the chaos of real life? And what hidden “meta skills” separate lifelong success from endless restarts?

Alan Lazaros, CEO and co-host of Next Level University, joins me to break down the architecture of consistency, how to build muscle, lose fat, and achieve lasting results through evidence-based fitness and self-mastery. We explore the difference between skills and meta-skills, why consistency is a mental framework, and how engineering principles apply to sustainable strength training, body recomp, and weight loss.

If you’ve ever felt stuck between knowing and doing, this conversation will rewire how you think about fitness forever. Tune in to Wits and Weights with Philip Pape, your go-to fitness coach for evidence-based nutrition and training.

Today, you’ll learn all about:

0:00 – Intro
2:40 – The concept of meta skills
5:50 – Flow and the challenge-skill sweet spot
9:10 – The compound effect and daily progress
12:00 – Redefining consistency as a meta skill
19:00 – Minimum viable habits for long-term success
26:00 – Alan’s seven pillars of fitness
37:00 – Why engineers struggle with fitness
47:00 – Focus as the ultimate meta skill

Episode resources:

• Next Level University Website/Podcast

• Instagram @alazaros88

• Alan on Facebook

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• Transcript

  Philip Pape: 0:01

  If you know exactly what to do for your fitness, you understand progressive overload, you know your macros, you dialed in your sleep, but you still can't maintain consistency for more than a few months. And when life throws you a curveball, whether that's travel, work stress, or just the mundane chaos of daily existence, your entire system collapses. Then this episode is for you because today I am talking with Alan Lazarus, CEO and co-host of Next Level University, about something that most fitness content tends to ignore. The meta architecture underneath your execution. What do I mean? Not another habit framework, not for motivation, but the engineering principles that determine whether your fitness survives contact with reality. You'll learn why the gap between knowing and sustaining exists, how to build buffer into your system so life's demands don't derail everything, and the specific meta skills that separate people who stay consistent for decades from those who restart every new year. And today we're going to look at why most people fail at fitness consistency despite having all the right information. My guest is Alan Lazarus. He is the CEO and co-host of Next Level University, a top 100 daily podcast with over 2,200 episodes now, reaching 175 countries. And what I genuinely respect about this man is he also thinks like an engineer like I do. He applies that mindset to human behavior. And if you look at his history, at 26, he had a near fatal car crash. It forced him to rebuild his approach to performance, to identity, to sustainable achievement. We love that word here, sustainable, the long-term results. And he's since built a multi-six-figure business helping high performers create what he calls meta systems or meta systems, however you want to pronounce it. And that is the architecture underneath the habits, the motivation, the willpower that determine long-term consistency. So today you're going to discover why such wide gaps often exist between knowing, doing, and sustaining your results, the specific components of a consistency architecture that hopefully can survive the messiness of real life and the meta skills that give you the highest leverage for long-term, lifelong results. Alan, thank you, man, for coming on the show and doing this with me.

  Alan Lazaros: 2:39

  Philip, gratitude first. Thank you for having me. I respect you and the work that you do in the world deeply. And you very much take your platform very, very seriously, which I appreciate.

  Philip Pape: 2:50

  Thank you so much for saying that because I think professionalism is really important. And hopefully we all feed off of each other as we surround ourselves with the best and try to be the best. And today I kind of want to talk about that for the user or the user. Here I am thinking like an engineer, you and I talk about users for the listener and having this sort of system of meta skills. I think you and your partner, uh Kevin, who's part of the podcast production team behind me as well, just want to give him a shout-out, Kevin Palmeri, on next level university. You guys talk about meta skills and having a meta system. And my engineering brain immediately thinks the higher order skills that drive consistency across a domain. Maybe that's fitness, like we care about here. Maybe that's business, relationships. And I think of systems as opposed to specific methods, just like I think of principles as opposed to methods. What do you mean when you talk about meta skills? And then we're going to go from there.

  Alan Lazaros: 3:45

  Okay. So there's a challenge skills sweet spot that have you ever read the book, The Art of Impossible, by Stephen Cotler? Yes, I have. Yes. Okay. Awesome. Yeah. So it's Stephen Cotler is one of the top researchers of flow and getting in the zone, which obviously is critical for fitness. And he talks about the challenge skills sweet spot, how you can't get in the zone until you're in the challenge skills sweet spot, which basically means it needs to be outside your comfort zone and challenging and exciting enough to be outside your skills, but also within your comfort zone enough to where you're not. Basically, stretch yourself as much as possible without snapping. I think of skills as if skills are in the center, there are sub-skills underneath. So, for example, effective communication is a skill, a sub-skill underneath that would be storytelling. A meta skill would be thinking about how you're telling a story and the understanding the hero's journey architecture of a story. So meta-skills are very cognitive. Skills are something that you do in practice, deep practice. I know you've talked about that on your show. And then subskills are the little nuance things that you practice underneath a skill. So I think of it from bottom to top. It would be sub-skills, skills, meta skills. And one of the things that I've found is when you see someone's career and their career is what you try to do, or what I try to do, there's a book called Decoding Greatness. What I try to do is reverse engineer sort of their journey. I think of it like a graph. Okay, where did they start? Where are they now? And where are they headed? And the sort of overnight success thing of when you see a physique, it didn't fall out of the sky. There are certain supplements they're taking, they're sleeping a certain way, they're hydrating a certain way. Everything that they're doing behind the scenes, you almost have to deduce. And there's meta-skills, skills, and subskills that they have that you might not have yet. Some of them came naturally, and in some cases, they don't even know that they have them. Um, and in some cases, they had to develop them consciously over time. So to me, that's a very simple way to explain something that's extremely complicated is what are the subskills, skills, and meta-skills that you need to achieve a specific outcome in terms of physique, is what we're talking about now. But that works for business, that works for success, that works for goals, that works for relationships, all that.

  Philip Pape: 5:59

  Yeah, and I appreciate frameworks and hierarchies like that. I think it's also helpful because sometimes I think people get stuck if they're focused on building a skill and something is not working. It could be that the meta skill needs more support. Or I suppose it could be that they're not breaking it down to the proper level of process-related goals that get them to the skill. So you mentioned the challenge skills sweet spot, and I think of, again, a spectrum from um, you know, I think I think I think of a spectrum when you talk about flow, where like, is playing video games on a couch flow because you're, you know, absorbed in it and time is flying by, but yet it's not challenging to develop skills. Now, assume somebody could argue against that. Um and conversely, it's something that is so hard that you cannot even improve because it's so beyond your level, you know, the opposite end of that, right? Right. And that's kind of what I think about. The first place I learned about flow, and I think the book you mentioned was uh a positive psychology, the idea being that flow is one of those elements of the good life of having, you know, meaning and purpose, yes, right, that you can find flow in something. So now people are listening, like, okay, where are these guys going with this? Yeah. I want to kind of tie that to fitness. You say you've reverse engineer somebody's journey. Take something very simple, take strength training, you know, training consistency, which is a big holdup for a lot of folks. Where would someone think about the mental framework with the skills, the meta skills, and the subskills for that?

  Alan Lazaros: 7:25

  You know, it's interesting because when it comes to fitness, a lot of this I haven't teased out. A lot of this is in my subconscious and unconscious, and I'm glad we're talking about it. Let's do it. The best way. So you talked about video games and video games, you do develop skills, hand-eye coordination. There's something called a RTS, a real-time strategy game, where you have to think in time and all that kind of stuff.

  Philip Pape: 7:47

  So I tell my wife that all the time, by the way. Okay, nice. Yes, yeah, developing skills.

  Alan Lazaros: 7:51

  So here's the thing, right? So a great film like Avatar, for example, gets you into flow. Time slips away, you're fully immersed, and all of a sudden you're immersed in a new world, you get all the neurochemistry, which is what flow basically people who have the most flow in their life, they've done studies, they are the most fulfilled and the most meaning and the most purpose. You already mentioned that. The problem is after you watch a great show or a great film, you're the same. The hero that you watched in the film, you were simulating the emotions and the flow of being immersed in that world. But when you get off the couch having watched Avatar, you're not any stronger. Maybe you're a little smarter because you can learn from film, but you're not, you didn't actually develop any tangible skills that you can now go use. And so to go back to your original point, though, when it comes to fitness, I think that fitness, whatever your modality, you can you can talk CrossFit, you can talk bodybuilding, you can talk strength training, which is what we're gonna get to. But any modality of fitness that you pick, it should be, in my opinion, optimized around something that you, even if it's painful, you are always glad you did it. I don't want to say you would love to do it because a lot of times that trips people up. I I always say you don't know you love something because you always want to do it. You know you love something because you're always glad you did.

  Philip Pape: 9:09

  Yes.

  Alan Lazaros: 9:09

  That makes total sense. Right. I don't always want to weight train, but I'm always glad I did. Yep. And so pick something that creates a lot of flow because that flow has shown two or three hours after that, the runner's high, the zone, after a great workout, you're gonna feel accomplished. You're also gonna be stronger andor better cardiovascular health. And so back to the skills piece. Strength training, the meta skills for strength training is consistency. Another meta skill for strength training is tracking. So you know how much you bench press, so do I. You know how much you squat, so do I. You know how much when you go into the gym, you my goal in that every workout is how do I get a little bit better this time than last time? Sometimes I accomplish it, sometimes I don't. And Phil, I think that uh you'll probably geek out with me a little bit on this. And I don't know if you've heard me say this on the podcast, but I researched this, and this is something that I think your listeners will be fascinated by. So you've heard of the aggregation of marginal gains, James Clear, Tiny Habits, BJ Fogg, all that kind of stuff. Okay, so for those of you out there who haven't read Atomic Habits Yet, I highly recommend that you do. It's a very, very great book. But ultimately, I created my own sort of flavor of this, which is I I put a dollar in a financial calculator and I grew it by 0.1% every day for 50 years. Now, when you do this, it becomes almost 84 million dollars. Now, the kicker, and this is the meta skill of consistency, this is the reason why to do it. I do this with all my clients. I pull up the financial calculator, put a dollar in, I put a 50 years, which is 18,000 something days. I do 365 times 50. And then it shows 84 million dollars, almost 83, I round it up. And I said, What happens if I take weekends off? So there's 52 weeks a year. If you take weekends off, it comes to $439,000. So you let's say that you don't take weekends off and you get a little better each day, every day, seven days a week, and I only do it five days a week, you have 191 times the outcome that I do. And that's the that's an example of a meta skill, like thinking about your thinking and thinking about because everyone knows you should work out, but if you don't have enough why, enough reasons why, if you don't understand the mathematics, mathematics is a meta skill, cognitive skill underneath fitness. That's why we're talking about the engineering thing. And so I know some people who have the subskills and the skills, but not the meta-skills, so they don't leverage the compound effect. And then I know some people who know the math but don't execute. And so that's kind of my long-winded answer to your question. But if you want to go through the meta skills, skills, and subskills of fitness and how to succeed in fitness, I do think that would probably be of value.

  Philip Pape: 12:04

  Yeah, before we do that, I want to poke on this consistency piece because first I want to define what we mean at Egan's Nebulous for a lot of folks, what consistency even means. Um, you gave uh an example I can take away from the financial example where seven days versus five days, some might argue five days is super consistent for something, right? Like you're doing it X percent of the time, all the time, forever, and therefore you're consistent, even though the output's different. So is one person more consistent, right? That's the first question. And then I want to play devil's advocate and ask why is consistency a meta-skill versus an outcome of other skills or meta skills?

  Alan Lazaros: 12:41

  Um, I think I consider consistency a meta-skill, because if you don't have the cognitive understanding of why it matters, you kind of just won't do it.

  Philip Pape: 12:53

  Okay.

  Alan Lazaros: 12:53

  And and so here's here's some examples. So if you understand the science of habits, if you understand the science of the compound effect and the aggregation of marginal gains, and you understand the science of how to actually sustain something long-term in terms of longevity, but also not burn out. Learning how to not burn out is another in order to it's it's really easy to say you should exercise every day for the rest of your life. The truth is, I actually believe that. It doesn't mean you should run a marathon every day. I've exercised with my beautiful girlfriend March 1st of 2022. We I I came to her and I said, Sweetheart, I want to beat my old best. And she said, Well, what do you mean? And I said, Well, the the most I've ever worked out consistently, exercised consistently is three and a half months. I was during my master's program, I had nothing going on. To me, I went from engineer engineering to an MBA, which compared to engineering, getting your master's in business is a joke. And then everything, yeah, everything compared to engineering is a joke. Um, honestly. One of the hardest things I've ever done was engineering. But that said, I basically exercised every day for three and a half months. And March 1st of 2022, now, which is wild to think about, I said, I want to beat my old best. I'm going for four months. I need to go 120 days straight. And she's like, I'll do it with you. We did that, and then we surpassed the 120 days, and I said, We did it. Awesome. And then she said, Let's go for a year. And then I I'll never forget this pony of the garage. We hit 365 days because I'm big on tracking. I have Google Sheets and I track all my metrics. And I said, We did it. She said, Did what? And I said, We did a year. And she turned to me, no hesitation. She said, Let's do this for the rest of our life. And I had a mini panic attack. Uh, because I was like, I can't make this promise to you or to myself unless I actually do it. This is a side tangent, but if you break the promises you make to yourself, you're basically gonna have no self-esteem and no self-respect, and you're not gonna build belief and self-worth. And so for me, I do not break promises to myself. I I okay, sometimes I do. I try really hard not to. I try really hard not to, because it's just a little a dollar in the bank account of your self-worth. Dollar in the bank account. Say you go to the gym, go to the gym, keep the promise. That's just how you invest in yourself. So I said, I can't do this unless you're serious. Like for the rest of our life, that's that's a big commitment. Now, I want to make this very clear jogging counts, swimming counts, walking my dog counts. The minimum is a half an hour, 30 minutes a day, every day, steady state cardio, hit training, weight training, it all counts. And we've been doing that now since March 1st of 2022, which I did yesterday, I crunched my numbers, is 3.6 years ago. Now we've bumped it from 30 to 35, 35 to 40, went back to 30, then we got it to 45, then we got it to an hour. So now we're doing an hour. That is kind of crazy. It's been very hard to sustain, honestly. That said, I believe in consistency very, very deeply. But what I've come to realize, and I have 20 clients, so I'm not just talking. I did fitness coaching for a long time. I said, anyone can teach you how to lose weight, but almost no one can get you to actually do it. Getting you to actually do it means you have to understand yourself, self-awareness, you have to understand the human condition, intrinsic and extrinsic motivation, and you have to understand how to poke your own buttons. I am infinitely more likely to exercise consistently, and uh this is the humble pie piece. There's no way I would have exercised every day for 3.6 years without Emilia. No way. The accountability that you have from not wanting to let her down, and then once you get a streak, the psychology underneath that. I mean, what are the chances I'm not going to exercise tonight? Oh, I went for 3.6 years and then I canned it. It gets once you have a streak going, you ha you hang on so deeply to that streak and it holds you accountable. A lot of people think I'm out of my mind. I understand that. You don't have to do what I'm doing. But what I will say is that I consider consistency a meta skill because there's so much thinking. Not to mention, you also have to design and optimize your entire life around that. Yeah. Which is lifestyle design. So if you think you're just gonna exercise every day for the rest of your life and then just kind of wing it, you there's no way. We just traveled last week. We were on a road trip from Massachusetts to South Carolina and back in one week, and exercise was infinitely more difficult. I mean, we were walking around the Tesla chargers, right? And and so you the meta, I call it meta because you have to think about your thinking constantly. You have to be thinking about yourself and what motivates you because you have to be able to poke your own buttons, basically. You have to be able to coach yourself in real time.

  Philip Pape: 17:39

  Yeah, I was thinking about a conversation I recently had with Adam Schaefer of Mind Pump before he's I think his episode's coming out right before yours. So no pressure, you know, follow him, right? Oh shit. And he's talking about how um he, you know, at his current phase of life where his six-year-old kid is one of the most important things right now, scaling his business. He's already built plenty of muscle, he's been shredded multiple times in his life. All he cares about is maintaining his fitness right now, and it doesn't take much to do that. Yeah, you know, for him, his system of consistency is always there and it might ebb and flow with like the priorities and it might get applied to a different outcome and he might require less effort, right? Because we know the compounding effect of habits often uh feeds into itself and does make these things almost, I'll say, inevitable. Even with your car trip, it's like even if you went the whole trip and didn't do that every day, you'd get right back to it. And that's kind of like that rubber band kind of hardly been stretched, is the is my thought uh for that. I don't know if that makes sense, but you did mention not burning out, and I think then sustainability and not burning out and having a system where it's the minimum effective dose is the minimum, and then not having such a high standard for yourself on a daily basis that's impossible to, you know, keep. And it's like somewhere in there, right? Like I imagine it it can shift. Like, does your minimum half hour or hour a day ever change during a specific phase, or is it always that?

  Alan Lazaros: 19:05

  It it did change. So we started out with 30 minutes, and I'll tell you right now, if we had started out with an hour and a half or something, there's no way. There's just no way. We run three businesses between the two of us. So the minimum viable product in business is is we call it a minimum viable habit, which is MVH. So for us, it was 30 minutes a day because I knew we could sustain that to start. And you know what's really kind of wild about this? I used to do fitness competitions, I've got these sort of trophies behind me, blah, blah, blah. But Kevin and I let it go for a while. We and I I don't want to say we let it go. We weren't out of shape, but we weren't competitor level freaks of nature like we once were. When I first met Kev, this dude was an animal fill. I mean, this, I mean, it's unbelievable. And I playfully joked with him. I said, Kevin, this is next level university, not dad bod university.

  Philip Pape: 19:55

  Yeah.

  Alan Lazaros: 19:57

  Because him and I lost it after COVID. He didn't work out for like three or four months. And I was I went from basically in a gym that was bodybuilder gym. It's called Impact Fitness in Massachusetts. And this is like, I mean, you go there and you're gonna get eaten. It's it's great, it's awesome. And I was overhead pressing 225. Like for bodybuilders, it it was like I was on it. And then I was out of the gym for three and a half months during COVID. I could not go to the gym. I'm working out in my closet doing chin-ups. I'm trying to I'm I only have 35-pound dumbbells, so I can't when you build a physique on certain equipment and then that equipment gets taken. I'm not one for excuses, but it's very hard to you can't squat 250 pounds when you don't have the equipment. And I couldn't go to the gym. So the gym's opened. I cry on my way to the gym, happy tears, happy tears. And I I blew my groin. I tried to get right back to where I was, I got injured, I was outside the challenge skill suite spot to your point. But back to the minimum viable habit. One of the things that's been really fascinating is I am just now, and I know this sounds crazy, three and a half years into consistent daily exercise. I'm just now feeling the benefits of it. Like there have been a few videos I've posted on my Instagram recently where it's like, wow, I actually feel like an athlete again. Because one of the things people don't tell you when you compete in fitness is you peak early. I was 27, 28 years old, in optimal conditioning. My whole world was fitness, no household, no three businesses. You know, my whole I was a fitness model, fitness competitor, fitness coach, 43 photo shoots, like my whole world was fitness back then. And then you grow these companies and you have a 19-person team, and all of a sudden fitness takes a back seat. And so, back to your original question though, you have to have a minimum that you hit no matter what, and then you can slowly ramp that up. We tried to go from 30 to 45, we had to go back to 30. And now we've been able to sustain the hour for probably the last like four months, which has been really good. It's not been easy. So, yesterday I'll give an example. We we went to the gym, we both woke up a little bit late. We had our first calls at 11 a.m. And we got to the gym and we were sitting there in the car going, There's no way. We're not gonna make our first meeting. I said, We gotta do 35. So we did 35 weights and then we did 25 walking in the evening. So we still got the hour in, but we broke it into two. So you don't have to be perfect, you just have to have a minimum that you always hit. Our new minimum is an hour. And I told Amelia, I said, listen, we are not going more than that. If I'm exercising every day for the rest of my life, I'm not doing more than an hour. And if you want to start out, and this is what people do in New Year's resolutions, they say I want to do, you know, five days a week, three hours. No, start small and ramp up. Start small, actually hit and ramp up. Not everybody can be Kobe Bryant level four a days. And he didn't start there either. He was he was doing, you know, one a days, then it was two a days, then it was three a days, then it was four a days, from 13 years old all the way to, you know, when he was 38 or whatever it was. So at the end of the day, you got to start small and build. And I would much rather this is why humility is so important. Yeah. I think self-belief is I know I can do this. I think humility is I know I'm not gonna do this unless I stay humble enough to make it feasible. And I think self-belief and humility rare rarely go hand in hand. Usually someone has a lot of humility and low self-belief and they're kind of self-deprecating, or they have a ton of self-belief that they're sort of delusional and they can never stay consistent because they they are you know overly optimistic.

  Philip Pape: 23:33

  Yeah, and these are the kind of concepts you guys talk about on your show all the time. That's why I encourage the listener to check it out. Um, you specifically are a numbers guy, uh, and and that goes through my mind. Just real quick, uh, Kevin said he didn't know another engineer. You need to correct that. I went to RPI, I know you went to WPI. Nice. Somehow he doesn't know this, so I need to educate him. Yeah, you do. He does. He says, I've I don't even know any other engineers.

  Alan Lazaros: 23:54

  I'm like, oh my god, how many engineers do you know? Just real quick. 50 of them at least. Yeah, well, I know hundreds, right? Because I'm in the space. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. So when he said that, that blew my mind. I was like, wait, what? My whole world has been engineers, you know. It's funny, it's funny.

  Philip Pape: 24:09

  Engineers are definitely a specific breed. My wife and I joke all the time about it because she was a teacher and comparing our two worlds when she was, but now she's a stay-at-home mom, but it was pretty funny. Um, nice. I love engineers, though. But so, and the listener really understands when we get into this stuff that I am a big fan of tracking in numbers and everything, but there's there's a reason for it. I think it's very efficient, and math is like a beautiful universal language of abstraction to something that is atomic almost, right? It's like simple to represent something with math. You don't have to know calculus, you don't have to know differential equations, just very simple, you know, numbers. And so when you say something like the five versus seven day example, you know, I think uh of some of the counterintuitive findings in nutrition science, like there was a study that compared five to seven days of weighing yourself, not zero versus five or seven, but five versus seven. Exactly. And found that seven days led to better long-term outcomes. And you're like, well, that's interesting. That two-day difference of consistency made a huge difference. So, my question then for you is you have this daily practice, this daily minimum. I think of fitness as different pillars that we kind of have to all put together, right? You've got training, you've got, I put movement in a separate bucket, but could argue that nutrition, right? Sleep, stress. There's like these big buckets. But when we talk about the fitness side of it, the different modalities and burnout and stimulus versus fatigue, you know, we we pretty well understand that you can't push it too hard on, say, the lifting weights piece before you go into that uh unrecovered regime, which gets even worse when you're in a fat loss phase and you don't have the energy for it. So if you're running like a three-day-a-week program, would you say to someone, the other four days have have a substitute activity that's like equivalent? Is that how we do it for that to kind of keep it linear?

  Alan Lazaros: 26:03

  Yeah, people don't like me for this, but I'm not here to be liked, I'm here to I'm here to add value. Uh fitness is a full-time job.

  Philip Pape: 26:11

  Yeah.

  Alan Lazaros: 26:12

  And and there should be something that you're doing every day for your physique. I I do build the self, build the family, build the business every day. Every day. You move the needle every day. So so I have a pyramid, and you're a systems guy, and I agree with you on the mathematics. I say without mathematics, take away this TV, take away Restream, take away this microphone, take away iPhone, yeah, take away everything. Listen, math is the epicenter of all great creations. And if you don't know mathematics, you don't need, like you said, you don't need to know calculus, but you do, there is benefits to calculus, rate of change over time. If you don't like math, I would say you're leaving a lot of opportunity on the table. You don't have to be an engineer, but you have to learn some math. And and one of the things I wanted to be a math teacher when I was a kid, and now I joke, I say, now I teach math to business owners. And when I was a kid, I said um I wanted to be a math teacher so desperately, and I said, well, they don't make enough money, unfortunately. Unfortunately. And now I teach math to business owners. It's fascinating. But back to the framework here, I agree with you on the buckets. So I have a pyramid of fitness that I created back in my fitness coaching days. Now, the cool thing about a pyramid in geometry is that in order for it to climb higher, it has to have a stronger foundation. And you mentioned we talk about burnout. One of the things that I think, you know, if I were to just come on here and and and just arrogantly say, hey, I haven't, I haven't missed a day of exercise in 3.6 years, that doesn't do it justice because the only reason I can do that is because of the other things you're not seeing me do. That's one component of the ladder, the pyramid. Training is one seventh of the equation, uh, in my opinion, from my perspective. So the bottom is sleep. I track my sleep every single day. I'm sure that you do. Aura is unbelievable. Do whatever you gotta do, track your sleep, even if you do it manually. So sleep is the foundation. When I get bad sleep, I feel like the sky is falling. So I got an 83 sleep score last night, so I'm in a good place. I feel good. When I don't get good sleep, I was on the road last week. It was very hard to perform. It was very hard to come here and add value. It was very hard to get all my work done and to have the willpower necessary to do what I gotta do. So sleep is the bottom of the pyramid. And the better you get sleep, the better all the rest go. And if you're arrogant enough to think you're gonna exercise every day and get crappy sleep, I I just you need some humble pie. So sleep is the bottom. So I do I'll give them all and then I'll go through them. So sleep, hydration, nutrition, training, mobility, breath work, and supplementation. Those are my seven. And supplementation is the top of it, meaning the importance of it is the least. The fitness industry, which what what do they sell? Supplements. So obviously, everyone is gonna overemphasize the importance of supplements until you're sleeping well, hydrating, until you're doing the other pillars, supplementation is exactly that. It's supposed to be a supplement, but most people overly focus on that. Hey, what's your stack? And are you taking creatine and all this stuff? To me, it's it's about sleep first, hydration second. I've got my Vita Coca water right here. Boom. Not a plug. I do not get paid by Vita Coca, I just love them. Okay, sleep, hydration, nutrition, which is calories, micros, macros. Sleep, hydration, nutrition, training. Training is any form of movement. You mentioned movement. I I call it training, which I think is intentional movement. Sleep, hydration, nutrition, training, mobility. That's the one I struggle with most. I can I cannot be consistent limiting belief. I struggle to be consistent with mobility. That's been the hardest for me. Everyone I've ever coached, in fitness or otherwise, struggles with one of these seven really bad.

  Philip Pape: 29:57

  Let me guess. You've a waste of time or Not a big fan of it or whatever. Or does it work done not helping or whatever. Not a fan. It definitely helps. I'm not deluding myself.

  Alan Lazaros: 30:07

  There's a reason somebody tends to be less consistent. You know what it what it is? I won't do it unless I'm learning.

  Philip Pape: 30:12

  Okay.

  Alan Lazaros: 30:13

  I need to do it while learning. But foam rolling, stretching, bands, that whole nine. So sleep, hydration, nutrition, training, mobility, breath work. This is one that I didn't have until way later. And I don't know how familiar you are with breath work.

  Philip Pape: 30:26

  I mean box breathing and all the different techniques. Yeah, sure.

  Alan Lazaros: 30:29

  Yeah, exactly. So breathing properly. And then supplementation is last. So I don't, I don't, I do creatine, I do magnesium and melatonin before bed. I I do of multivitamin. That's pretty much my supplementation. Yeah, exactly. So but to me, those are the seven that matter. And in order to do all seven consistently, it is a full-time job. Don't get it twisted. Most people are not healthy. And I wasn't either in the past. So I'm I get it. You know, back in my engineering days in corporate, I was I was drinking too much and too often, and I was 160 pounds, skinny fat, not healthy. And I'll never go back. But if you sit there and say, I want to be healthy, I want to be fit, I want to build my physique, you basically have to make it think of it like a full-time job. You know, every single day you should be moving the needle on something for sure.

  Philip Pape: 31:22

  Unfortunately, sleep should slot in for a third of that day no matter what, right? And the right and then the rest of the waking hours have the rest. At least a third, yeah. But it's an interesting list. I've heard you talk about it before, and we don't have to like argue over what should be in the list because everybody might have their own little different things. What I find interesting, and you can help me understand this, is let's put this in the context of skills, of subskills, skills, and meta skills. When I think um nutrition, to me, that's like a massive bucket, a massive pillar that encompasses so many things. Um I mean, it's everything you eat, right? But it's all the things tied to that, corollary to that. When I think of breath work, to me, that's a very specific application of, let's say, mindfulness or relaxation or stress management. And I would almost say, like, oh, which of these do not belong, right? Like on the IQ test where you look at how they all compare, and I'd say, well, I might actually want stress management as a higher level than breath work, kind of like sleep. You don't talk about the sleep hacks and such. Nice. Where does your mind go with that? And then we can talk about the meta skills and skills.

  Alan Lazaros: 32:22

  Well, the breath work, I think, is also while you're training, how you're breathing while you're training, the certain way you breathe while you run, the certain way you breathe while you do uh strength training. But I do like the stress management piece. And the other piece of this too, and I had, you know, I've had a lot of really smart people in my life, so they've they've always came with different it's like minerals, no. Uh I like your stress, also hormones. So some one person came to me, Amy. I don't know if you know Amy Lenny, she's on our team, uh, but she said, Alan, you forgot hormones. And I said, Well, yes and no. And again, there's a lot of nuances to this, but if you do sleep, hydration, nutrition, training, mobility, breath work, and supplementation well, obviously hormones are a byproduct. So, and then obviously, you know, a lot of athletes unfortunately do steroids. And we're not gonna have that conversation, I don't think. I'm I'm a natural athlete, I've never personally done steroids, I never intend on it. I used to compete with people who did, which was very unfair, um, which is one of the reasons I lost two of my three shows. But it's like, well, there's a there's a drug test. Yeah, well, they I didn't say they were running a cycle right now, but they definitely were three months ago, that I promise you. But anyways, so at the end of the day, I like the stress management. I think that if I were to replace breath work, I would probably go with that. Oh, because I think that's a very that's very important because as an athlete, you kind of have to not let anxiety take you. Because you're you know as well as I do, like when anxiety spikes and cortisol spikes, your test levels plummet. So you gotta be very mindful of how stress stressed out you get. One of the problems with meta skills being an engineer is engineers are thinking all the time. Always 24-7-365, right? It's always going. So it's very hard for there aren't a lot of like really in shape engineers. I'm not trying to be mean, there just aren't. And one of the reasons why is because we're so we think about the past and the future so often. And uh high IQ is very rarely correlated with low stress levels.

  Philip Pape: 34:28

  Yeah, it's true. Um, you know, which I guess this whole discussion about this pyramid, honestly, it could be its own podcast when we talk about these different levels, right? Because now you got me thinking about mindfulness in general permeating all of this, the sympathetic versus parasympathetic nervous system being so crucial to your health. And then you mentioned hormones, and my mind goes to blood work and how your biomarkers are a reflection of your hydration and nutrition, and how supplementation is potentially a subset of nutrition, right? So anyway, we don't want to go. This is the thinking. I love this. This is the overthink RPI versus WPI.

  Alan Lazaros: 35:01

  By the way, I'm totally curious. And you don't mind if I call you Phil? Is it Philip? It's Philip. Philip. Okay, Philip. Sorry about that. It's not going to be Philip. I'm sure I'm not the only one who made that mistake, right? Uh, did you end up applying to because I applied to RPI, WPI, and MIT. I didn't I didn't apply to MIT. I wish that I did. Did you end up applying to WPI?

  Philip Pape: 35:19

  No, I didn't. I was from Florida, so I wasn't actually even familiar with a lot of the schools up here. So it was like RPI, Cornell, MIT. Where are you?

  Alan Lazaros: 35:26

  Where are you hailing now? Sorry, I'm not sure.

  Philip Pape: 35:28

  Yeah. Okay, so I stayed up here. I mean from Florida. I stayed in New York.

  Alan Lazaros: 35:31

  I stayed in New England. So we near each other. I'm a huge fan of New England, man. I just drove from Mass to South Carolina, as I mentioned, and uh I I missed home. I missed New England's great. New England's great. Yeah, three months out of the year suck, but the rest are awesome. Yeah, you know, the contrast is nice.

  Philip Pape: 35:47

  Like that's I um there's a concept in Finland. I think it's Finland. Uh there's a Den Denmark called uh Higa, H Y G G E. Familiar with this concept? It'd be a cool I think that'd be a cool episode for you guys to talk about actually. Higa is the idea of embracing the weather no matter what it is, with with positivity and like embracing it to its fullest. So when it's really cold, that means blankets and fire and dressing up really warmly and saying, like, yeah, no excuses. It's kind of a no excuses mentality, but not from a die hard, you know, mentality. But hey, this is the world, this is the planet Earth. Um, so okay, so circling some of this in, because we mentioned the engineering. Uh, where was I gonna go with this? Engineers being out of shape. Um, yeah, I see it every day. It's yeah, it's the thinking, it's also the lifestyle, it's also, you know, I mean, there's a lot of sedentary professions as well that correlate with or I also think some of it's cultural.

  Alan Lazaros: 36:41

  Yeah. Because if you get your value from being smart, which most engineers do, you don't need to be, you know, jacked or whatever it is. I it always bothered me how people are so one-dimensional. And again, I don't mean people in general, not everyone is, but I I I hated how you had to be smart or athletic. Yes. Or you had to be like good looking or intelligent. You can't be both. And and for me, I I used I was gonna write a book called The Best of Both Worlds, and my whole I didn't want to just be one-dimensional. I wanted to be healthy, wealthy, and in love. I I didn't want to just be because I have a bunch of millionaire friends, as you do from college, that it's like, what are you doing, brother? Like, why why don't you it's you obviously have the time and money. So, like, what's the what's the disconnect here, right? It and and it does, it frustrates me because I don't want to see them suffer, and their potential is so much greater than that. These people are brilliant. And why aren't you applying your brilliance to your health?

  Philip Pape: 37:38

  Yeah, I I think that applies even I think that applies to multiple skills that are outside what your domain is, and and what I mean by that is I so I've seen engineers who get in shape, myself among them, right? Where there is an advantage to that for sure. You would think there's not, but there is because people start treating you differently. You get a little bit more respect, you have more energy, you could you show up more in a different way. Now, maybe if you take it too far and get too jacked, maybe people be like you're a meathead now. And and you see plenty of CEOs and vice presidents who are overweight and it doesn't obviously hold them back necessarily uh until they have that heart attack or you know, their work life is cut short. But I think there's even other domains like public speaking. Engineers don't dive into that because they feel like it's not a skill that they need until they need it, you know. And there's skills like music, you know, creativity, create creative uh endeavors, whether it's music or something else. I I played jazz in in high school, I was at uh arts high school, which again is weird being an engineer, but there's a lot of overlap between music and math and engineering. And it just opens up the creative mind. So sorry, you get me thinking about all of these things. I love it, man.

  Alan Lazaros: 38:46

  And one of the reasons I think engineers don't typically become public speakers is because math modalities of thinking have a really hard time communicating effectively. I this will be a very side quick side tangent, but I I don't know if you've heard ever heard me talk about the four modalities of thinking.

  Philip Pape: 39:00

  Probably. I've heard hundreds of your episodes, so okay.

  Alan Lazaros: 39:03

  I appreciate you. You probably heard it, but basically the the rarest one is math, statistics, probabilities, equations, formulas. The most common one is words, conversations, and concepts. Then there's vision, pictures, and images, and then there's the second rarest, which is energy, intuition, and vibe. And women tend to be better at that one. So we all have all four, but we we have a really good one and a really bad one. My really good one is mathematics. My really bad one was energy. I just wasn't reading the vibe. I didn't, you know, I grew up in a very low vibe environment and I didn't understand. So Amelia fortunately has helped me with that, and I've helped her on the math side. But engineers struggle to communicate. I mean, even in this episode, I know I I seem like maybe a strong communicator, but I want to be honest with all of you. It is very hard for me to get what my engineering brain thinks to be said. It's it's insane. Like I can relate, man. I think in the the X, Y, and Z axis. Like everything's a graph for me. So it's very hard to articulate it. And and then here's the biggest problem. And this has been really hard for me in business because I'm a business coach. For people who don't think in mathematics, it's very hard. I have this remarkable, so I I I pull this up and I can draw it out. It's been unbelievable the unlocks because these engineering concepts are unbelievably valuable in business. And if you don't understand numbers and exponential growth, like think about it just for a second. Imagine, Philip, if you didn't know what exponential growth actually meant, you couldn't possibly understand the economy. Everything's exponential, that nothing grows linearly. So it's either an exponential decay or exponential increase. And and I've come to realize through coaching so many people that we are so missing that. We're missing the mathematic understanding of a penny that doubles every day for 31 days, halfway in it's five bucks, and it's it ends up being 10.3 million dollars. So nobody, even even the 84 million, one dollar becomes 84 million in 50 years. In 10 years, it's only 38 bucks or whatever. So I don't think anyone taught us this stuff, and it bothers me so much because us engineers have it. We know it, we understand it, yeah, but but we aren't able to communicate it, and including myself. I mean, it's brutal.

  Max: 41:18

  Shout out to Philippe. I know Philly for a long time, and I know how passionate he is about healthy eating and body strength, and that's why I choose him to be my coach. I was no stranger to dieting and body training, but I always struggled to do it sustainably. Philip helped me prioritize my goals with evidence-based recommendations on not overstressing my body and not feeling like I'm starving. In six months, I lost 45 pounds without drastically changing the foods I enjoy. But now I have a more balanced diet. I weight train consistently, but most importantly, I do it suspendingly. If a scientifically sound, healthy diet and a link, strong body is what you're looking for, uh Philip Pape is your guide.

  Philip Pape: 42:03

  Yeah, I totally agree with that. Um, it's an ongoing skill of trying to tell that story. It's effectively a story we're trying to tell is convert what's in our brain into something you understand over there, you know, in your brain. It's like telepathy spoken out loud, and now you're trying to make it work. Uh so what is your concept? Are you familiar with the dichotomy of intuitive eating versus like tracking your macros? Those kinds of concepts always pop in my head because, first of all, they're camps that don't necessarily need to exist here because there's so much overlap. But secondly, I can't ever grasp why somebody would want to flail around and try to figure things out, quote unquote, intuitively without having developed some skill. And I think intuition is a just a highly tuned sense of skill that now you need, don't need the training wheels anymore, or something to that effect. Does that resonate with you? Well said.

  Alan Lazaros: 42:55

  Yeah. People say, well, just trust your gut. Well, what if your gut is conditioned horribly wrong? Yeah. Like, okay, so I'll give you an example. I had a stepfather, and he and I didn't get along well. And I was interviewing uh someone, or I was being interviewed by someone. His name's Tim Malansen. He has a podcast called the Work at Home Rock Star. He was a client of mine. I coached him for a while, and I had to work through this. He looks just like my stepdad. He's got the beard and everything. And I remember being like, what am I? I'm so triggered by this guy. Tim is the nicest guy ever. And it was like, so my intuition was saying, run. This is not good. You know, it reminds me of all the pain from my childhood. And that's not accurate. I had to work through that. So a lot of people say, well, oh, I just intuitively eat, or I just, I just go with my gut. I think that that's very, yeah, maybe that works if your gut is honed and if you've developed that skill over time. So for example, I intuitively eat now, but I don't really. I tracked macros and calories to the grain of rice for three years, and I have a mathematic modality of thinking. You know, a banana has 120 calories, an apple has 90. Like I'm not just winging it. And and so you see people with results who say they're intuitively eating, and then you apply that and go, oh, well, if that person doesn't have to track, then I certainly don't. When in reality, that person probably tracked for three or four years and now can intuitively do it because their intuition is honed, because they've developed a subskill, a skill, and a meta skill that's and I think that that's one thing I'll make very clear too. You know, there's a lot of wonderful people out there, but the success is a byproduct of skill development. It's not like I can't even tell you how many wonderful human beings I've met that are wildly unsuccessful, not just in fitness, but in life. And it and it hurts me. It hurts me. They could be so amazing, but they don't have the skills, sub skills, and meta skills necessary to actually win. And that's actually what my whole coaching practice is built around now is how do you give other people skills? You don't. Kevin is a great example. I've been coaching him for eight years. That dude is a machine now. I mean, when I first met him, his intuition would have drove him off a cliff. And now he just he's a machine. It's unbelievable what people are capable of, but it takes constant deep practice and training and checking in and measuring and metrics and all that kind of stuff. So it's really, I think it's hard when I go on the internet and I hear like self-discipline doesn't work and you just go with the flow. It's it's no, that's no. Imagine if Apple was like, Yeah, we don't really track anything, we just go with the flow. It's it Michael Phelps' coach, yeah, just swim around, you know.

  Philip Pape: 45:28

  So what's what's above meta? Uber? Yeah. Because what comes to mind here is we need we need almost talk about the Uber skill of developing meta skills as the principal uh here rather than the specific skills. We'll we'll get to that, but before before, um Philip, Philip, you would, you would only engineers can complicate this. Exactly. Um, I think of two past guests that I've had uh recently. Well, one, he's been on three times, Dr. Eric Helms, uh WNBF Pro. Love the guy. Yeah, he and I actually just recorded an episode on epistemology, and and I honestly felt talk about humility. Like, I don't even know how it's gonna come out, but I don't care because I learned a ton from him. But nice he he for I think his second appearance on my show talked about how he's gone through how many preps, right? He's gone through dozens of preps in his career. And only now, and now as in like a year ago, when he's a pro, has he finally did he finally try not to tracking? And he said, and it's he he said it only took year, it took years of doing it many different ways and honing the skill. It's exactly that. And then another guest I had on Dr. Mickey Willadin, she has the podcast Wikipedia. Love talking to her because her mindset is always about the skill and not about the thing or the result or like even what the skill is per se. And it, you know, just the fact that you need to develop skills and get into that mindset. Love it. So, having said all that, let's do that here from a fitness perspective. You know, not hey, what program do you do for your training? But what are the meta skills and how do we develop those meta skills?

  Alan Lazaros: 47:03

  Challenge accepted. Yes. So not an easy feat, too. And for anyone out there listening, just bear with us, take notes if you can, if you're not driving. Uh, one of the skills that needs to be honed is focus. If I, and again, I I've been coaching for 10 years, I have it tracked 11,478 hours of coaching, training, and podcasting. I'm not saying that to flex, I'm saying that so you know I'm not some young kid just talking. I'm 36 years old, I look 12, I know. What I want you to know is I I this is all I do. Right? Like helping people achieve their goals is all I do. And fitness coaching was the first three years of that. So focus, if I watch you for a day, if I could have a camera on you for a day without it getting creepy, I could tell how success I could predict your success based on how well you control your focus. You want to talk about a meta-skill, scale and subskill, depending on how you look at it. Learning to control your focus is probably where I would start. If you can't stay focused, I have a hat on in the gym that's always black. I hate the ones with the underbrim that's not. I have a focus cap. Have you ever seen the focus caps that are like this? Oh yeah. Yeah, I have one of those. I was I was wearing it earlier today. Yeah, um my uh I have air pods that are noise canceling. I actually used to not wear contacts on purpose because I didn't want to see facial expressions in the gym. Now I know I'm out of my mind with all this, but I'm telling you, when I'm in the gym, I go to war. I go to war with my lesser self. Do not talk to me, do not look at me, do not come near me. Emilia and I go to the gym every day, every other day. We we exercise together every day, but we gym every other day. We don't we have sign language. People probably think we're deaf. We never talk. This means I need a spot, this means I hit a PR. But we have a bunch of others.

  Philip Pape: 49:02

  And we need headphones or no, music or no? Music, for sure.

  Alan Lazaros: 49:06

  So you do have music. Okay. We do have music, noise canceling, airpods. But with music, not silence. With music, not silence, yeah. Absolutely. Specific playlists, sometimes we jam together on Spotify, you can do a jam, sometimes we don't. But specific playlists that that for me, everything's fit for purpose. So, for example, after the gym, the the song by Green Day 21 Guns came on, and she's like, Hey, can we change this? This is too sad. We gotta I gotta be on a call in five minutes. I was like, Yeah, fair. So everything's fit for purpose for us. And so I always pick the workout, you know, carb up in the morning, pre-workout, perfectly timed, boom, get into the gym, awesome flow, hat down, no one talk to me. Like, let's get in the zone. I I also do the hoodie thing with the hoodie up to start, and then as you get warmer and warmer and warmer, you basically you basically strip the whole time because you're first it's a hoodie, then it's a shirt, then it's a it's a it's like a it's like a sacred practice, but focus back to the skill. That's where I would start. If you can't stay focused, you can't you can't build a great physique or a great company, you just can't.

  Philip Pape: 50:08

  Yeah, so it's great that you mentioned focus because I feel like that ties back to the mindfulness and the flow that we were talking about earlier as well. And I know we don't have a lot of time left to get into what some of the other skills are, but I'm glad that you dropped like this is the thing to start from because now I'm reflecting on my day. If you were creepily watching me with a camera, uh I do pride myself on being able to really focus, but at the same time with social media, with the world today, with phones and notifications. And I'm often working from home with my family there, although they're super respectful and my kids are great. There's so many distractions and things like that. So I think that could be a whole other discussion about okay, the listener takes this knowledge and says, you know, what can I learn about being focused, knowing that that meta skill can translate into all the other things I'm trying to do with tracking my nutrition, with lifting weights, with having a plan, with sitting down and thinking about my future and all of those things, where would they start?

  Alan Lazaros: 51:07

  So designing your environment for focus and then also talking to your peers. So Emilia and I don't have kids yet. We have a dog and two cats, and I know that that's not the same, but that's not what I'm saying. Everyone has distractions. Also, my phone, and and Philip, by the way, if you ever want to go deeper on this stuff, I'm happy to come back. This has been awesome. Okay. But for now, you can see there's no notifications on my phone. If you're on YouTube, you can see. Not a single badge notification, nothing. This phone will only ring for two humans. One is Kevin Palmeri, my business partner, who you know. The other one is Amelia Smith, my partner. Intimate partner. I live with her. No one right now, there's six calls that I've gotten. Half of them are probably telemarketers or something crap. So when I said there's no notifications, there's a badge notification for calls down here. I just realized that now. Um, but I'm gonna block most of those people. And first I'm gonna check my voicemail and see if any of those are legit. They're probably trying to lend me money. Um, because our company's doing very well, which I'm very grateful for. But my point is, and I know I gotta go quick here, you need to design your digital and physical environments for flow. You have to design your digital and physical environments for focus. You'll notice I got calls. Watch this. I got 218, 218, 213 yesterday, yesterday. Apparently, I got those calls yesterday. But I've had a call at 218, it's 258 now. I got I got three calls in the middle of this podcast and nothing rang. Now, there's something called emergency bypass on your iPhone. I don't have an Android, so you have to figure this out if you have an Android. You can make it so certain people can get through and other people can't. There is nothing so urgent unless it's Kevin or Amelia, because if something's burning down in the business, I need to know, and if if Amelia needs me, I need to know. But other than that, no one can get a hold of me. And now I know I'm extreme with that. I know a lot of people don't like that. Also, we have a closed door policy. So my office right now is the door is closed. Stephen Cotler says, if you can't put a sign on your door that says F off, I'm flowing, then you have a problem. Emily and I basically have house rules that say if my door is closed, it means I'm flowing. Unless it's an absolute emergency, please do not disrupt me. And then when we have children, we're gonna have to have a whole new set of house rules, which is which is a whole nother thing. But ultimately, if you design your phone and your physical environment for flow and for focus, you're gonna be far better off. And also at your gym, and this is gonna sound cruel, I know, but this is this is peak performance. Don't make friends at your gym. Don't make friends at your gym. I don't have any friends at my gym, and that's on purpose. It's by design because I don't want I'm there to work out, and I make it very clear in my energy I'm there to work out. I'm not here to talk, I am not here to socialize, I don't have a lot of time. Time is my most valuable asset. I have three businesses I have to take care of. So at the end of the day, and by the way, when I have kids, it's gonna be even worse. So at the end of the day, try your best to stay focused. There's only a few things in life that really, really, really, really, really matter a lot. And most of the rest is just superfluous stuff. Fitness is one of the things that really matter. And if you don't focus and design your life for focus, you're in some trouble. And um, I can't I say that hardcore because I care. Yeah. Because you're not gonna be in shape without that. You just need, yeah, you might not be in shape even with that. It's it's it's very challenging. Like I think it takes humility to say, I need to focus. I think it's arrogant to think you're gonna wing it and be in great shape.

  Philip Pape: 54:29

  Sure. That's a great meta skill. And I think we're just scratching the surface on this. Honestly, I want people to reach out to you. We're gonna share your contact info. And if you're listening to this, you're like, I've got to hear the rest of this potential conversation that we haven't yet agreed on having. And you want to hear the other meta skills that direct directly relate to fitness. And I know there's a list that we didn't even get to Alan. I want you guys to reach out to Alan. If you're comfortable reaching out to me and just saying, bring Alan back on for that, do that as well. We want to test this out and talk about following up with the rest of these because it's an important conversation. And a lot of people think too much at a low level. And I think you've brought it up to that crucial level of the meta skills. So, with that, Alan, where can folks reach out to you?

  Alan Lazaros: 55:09

  So we have a website called nextleveluniverse.com. We've got a book club, I do masterclasses every month for free. We got all kinds, we got a group coaching program, we got all kinds of cool stuff. The podcast is Next Level University. It's 1% improvement in your pocket from anywhere on the planet completely free. And that's Kevin and I just talking about success and personal development every single day, 2,200 episodes. And really what it is is we're a coach in your pocket to keep you on point. Health, wealth, and love. And uh my Instagram is the best place to reach me. You and I have been talking on there. If you DM me on Instagram, that's gonna be me, not an AI bot, not an EA, like actually me. And uh please reach out. I check it every single day. I do Instagram, Facebook, and LinkedIn. If you DM me on any one of those, Instagram's best, Facebook's next, and LinkedIn is third. I will get back to you eventually. Just LinkedIn expect a little delay.

  Philip Pape: 56:00

  We're gonna keep it simple for folks, keep the IG in there. Yeah. Um, NLU Podcast, nextleveluniverse.com. My brother, it's been a pleasure. Dear listener, reach out to Alan. He's a great guy. Check out their podcast, tune in for the potential upcoming episode where we do another one of these. And uh have a great weekend, my friend. Thank you, Philip. Thank you for having me. It's been awesome.

The Hypertrophy Hierarchy (Which Training Variables Actually Matter) | Ep 396

Get your free Strength Training for Hormone Health guide at witsandweights.com/free to learn how to structure your training to support healthy hormone levels as you age, applying the principles from this episode.

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Every week there's new advice about training. Train to failure. Don't train to failure. Do more volume. No, you're overtraining. Meanwhile, you're stuck making zero progress because nobody's telling you what actually matters.

Today, Philip ranks the 5 training variables that drive 80% of muscle growth, plus one hidden foundation that amplifies them all. Using the concept of Leverage Points from systems thinking, you'll discover which variables create disproportionate results and which ones are just noise distracting you from real progress.

This is an evidence-based blueprint to stop spinning your wheels and start building the physique you want.

Episode Resources

• 12 Rules of Training Volume to Build More Muscle | Ep 348

• Join Physique University for Training Templates and Lifting Lessons

• Try MacroFactor for free with code WITSANDWEIGHTS

Timestamps

0:00 - Why you're stuck and overwhelmed by conflicting training advice
3:18 - Variable #1: Training volume (the primary driver of muscle growth)
8:02 - Variable #2: Training effort and proximity to failure
12:54 - Variable #3: Progressive overload (the adaptation mechanism)
20:37 - Variable #4: Exercise selection and mechanical efficiency
25:14 - Variable #5: Frequency (how to distribute weekly volume)
30:05 - Bonus variable

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Get notified of new episodes. Listen on Apple, Spotify, or all other platforms.

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• Transcript

  Philip Pape: 0:01

  Every week, every day, there's new advice on social media about how to train. Train to failure, don't train to failure. Do more volume, no, you're overtraining. Meanwhile, you're stuck making zero progress because it's hard to figure out what actually matters. Today I'm ranking the five training variables that drive 80% of your muscle growth, aka hypertrophy, plus one hidden foundation that amplifies all of them. You'll learn exactly where to focus your energy so you can stop spinning your wheels in the gym and start building the physique you want. Welcome to Wits and Weights, the show that helps you build a strong, healthy physique using evidence, engineering, and efficiency. I'm your host, Philip Pape, and today I'm gonna break down my hypertrophy hierarchy so you know exactly which training variables produce results and which ones are just noise. If you've felt overwhelmed by the conflicting advice about building muscle, this is one of those episodes that just cuts right through it and gives you what to focus on. As always, we are using this engineering framework to prioritize what matters. So today I'm really just jumping right into it. We're gonna start with the principles, as always, because not all training variables are equal. And by the way, when I when I talk training, I am talking about strength training, resistance training. If you're new to the podcast, you're like, what does it mean training? We're talking about resistance training, the most important thing you can do if you're not doing right now to build strength and muscle. And today we're specifically talking about hypertrophy, which is the act of building muscle size. And if you've ever heard of the Pareto principle, which is that 20% drives 80% of the results, that's kind of the mindset we're taking today, where a lot of the things you and others are doing in the gym or talking about online drive five or 10% of the results. I want to get you the 80. And we often obsess over the things that give you the five because they're easy or because they're new, they're novel, they're fun, whatever, and they don't necessarily, they're not necessarily effective. So for today's engineering concept, I'm gonna use something from systems thinking called leverage points. Someone by the name of Donnella Meadows, a systems thinker, identified that in any complex system, certain intervention points create disproportionate effects. So this is the idea of leverage. A small change at a high leverage point can produce massive results. A huge effort at a low leverage point barely moves the needle, right? And so we this is this is the epitome of efficiency that we talk about on the show. And your body is a complex system as well. And muscle growth depends on dozens of variables interacting together. And you don't necessarily have to understand all of those. You don't even have to understand the mechanisms. We really want to understand the cause and effect. And not all variables have the same leverage. So today, the hypertrophy hierarchy, hierarchy meaning a priority or pyramid of variables, right? What's most important? The hypertrophy hierarchy is going to identify five of those highest leverage points in your muscle building system where your effort produces the greatest return. And so the first variable is going to be training volume. Now, you may have heard me talk a lot about when I talk about first principles, I talk about mechanical tension, I talk about some of the mechanisms that produce muscle growth. But I'm taking a different angle today because again, I just said the mechanisms aren't as important as understanding how your actions contribute to maximizing those mechanisms. So training volume in many senses is the primary driver of muscle growth because that is the total number of hard sets per muscle group per week. And if you don't have enough volume, you're just gonna flatline no matter what you're doing. And it may be a low amount of volume compared to someone else based on your responsiveness. It's all relative. But the point is you need to hit a minimum amount of volume. So when we talk about hard sets per muscle group per week, let's define things. A hard set is going to be within about one to three reps shy of failure. You almost never have to take something to complete failure. So that's one myth we're busting right away. You almost never have to, although in some cases with small isolation movements, it can give you a little extra to go to failure or even to do, let's say, partial reps after failure in some cases. But the vast majority of movements, if in fact all, if you do them one to three reps shy of failure, you're hitting on that mechanism of mechanical tension and you're making it hard and you're getting to the point where you signal your body that it needs to adapt. If you stop a movement, let's say you have a movement on your program that says do eight to 12 reps, okay? And you get to 12 reps, and you know for a fact you could do like six more. Like it just feels kind of easy, like you could do six more. A lot of you out there, raise your hand virtually, if this is you, will stop at 12 because that's what's in the program. Or you just didn't know any better. Like it says eight to 12, so I'm gonna do 12. The point isn't to do 12, the point is to do enough to get within one to three reps shy of failure. And so if the if eight to 12 is programmed, you need to lift the weights heavy enough so that 12 is the absolute maximum number of weight of reps you could possibly do, or again within one to three reps shy of failure, meaning maybe you could do 13 or 14, maybe. And that's what a hard set is. And the research shows a clear dose response relationship with volume of these hard sets, where the more volume up to a point leads to more growth, but up to a point. So this is the this is what we're talking about here: high leverage. Okay, not the absolute minimum, but also not the absolute maximum. Where is that highest leverage point? For most muscle groups, that is going to be a pretty big range of 10 to 20 hard sets per week. And for many of you, 10 to 15 is the practical sweet spot. Practical meaning when you add up all your muscle groups and the sets and giving a seven-day week and your schedule, being busy people that you are. 10, maybe 15 is what you can fit in practically with hour to hour and a half long sessions max. If you want to go to 20, you're gonna be spending more time in the gym. That's all. But can you go down as low as five? Well, the evidence says five to 10 might be the minimum viable product when it comes to this. Meaning, yeah, you probably could still get 70, 80% of your results with five to 10 sets, but 10 to 15 is probably gonna get you 90, 95%. And then you go all to 20 and you get kind of that final optimization. Now, more isn't always better because volume comes with a cost to your recovery. Every set you do is gonna add fatigue. And this is where the minimum effective dose comes in. And you have to find that for you. So if 10 sets per week is working really well, why would you do 15 unless you want to make the trade-off with time versus optimization or fatigue versus optimization? And it's going to differ whether you're in fat loss or not, whether you're a resource-stared or not. You might have to have lower volume during fat loss. So the more stimulus is always better if your recovery can handle it. You've probably heard of concepts like stimulus to fatigue. That's what we're talking about. So I would start with 10 to 15 hard sets per muscle group per week, and then adjust upward if recovery and schedule allows. Or you can even adjust downward if that's too much, or for practical purposes, you don't have enough time in your week and you want to try that minimum, and you might surprise yourself. You might find that you needed that extra recovery. And now you can do some more walking, some more sleeping, things like that. So, variable number one was training volume. And by the way, I did an entire episode on volume, and that was episode 348, 12 rules of training volume to build more muscle. I'm gonna include that in the show notes if you want to deep dive. Variable number two is training effort. Now we have to define this again. Effort in this case is how close you take your sets to failure. Now you could use a measurement called reps in reserve, which is how many reps you have left in the tank, or the inverse of that is RPE, rate of perceived exertion, which is a scale of zero to 10, where 10 is the most exertion, mean meaning zero reps left. Some people find that confusing because it's like thinking backward. And at the end of the day, I hardly ever use these anyway as a measurement. I usually just go by what is the exercise, what are the sets and reps, what's the load, and get in my rep range with the right load. Training close to failure, one to three. Like actually prescribing RIR, it's it can be done. There are cases where if you're progressing with a set-based program, let's say you're gonna do three sets this week, four sets next week, five sets the following week, you might actually pay attention to your RIR and start submaximally first and kind of add more effort and keep the load the same, but you're actually adding sets, and that's the way you're progressing, if that makes any sense. But here's the point. I don't want to get off on a tangent here. You have to train hard enough to convince your body it needs to adapt. And we we already talked about this in the volume piece, but now I'm digging in specifically on this as a training variable. If you're stopping with like five or more reps left in the tank, you're probably not providing enough stimulus. I mean, the research, the hairy edge is probably four, four to five reps, right? Four maybe, but that's why I say one to three. Staying within one to three RIR, reps in reserve, reps left in the tank, shows nearly identical growth, muscle growth as training to complete failure, but without the fatigue accumulation of going to failure, as well as avoiding potential injury and stress on your joints and stuff, depending on the movement, right? I'm not saying never go to failure. Again, I want to say that, I want to make that clear. Small movements, they're easy on the joints, you can take complete failure, you know, like a bicep curl. But for most things, it's gonna be one to three. And if you're going to, if you're going to go to complete failure, it one technique is to do it, say, on the last set of of the of the movement. And many of you are underestimating how hard you need to train. If your sets feel too easy, you're definitely leaving gains on the table. And so if you've never done this before, I want to give you a tip. I want you to try something. It's called a final set AMRAP. All right. I learned this from Alex Bromley. I know a lot of guys do it. And what you're gonna do there is let's say you have three sets programmed for an exercise and it's your first week in the program. On that last set, even if it's prescribed, let's say eight to twelve, just keep going until almost complete failure and do as many as you can. And so this is more of a mental stretch goal because many of us think we're training hard. We get to that 12, we're like, oh my God, that's so hard. But if you're instead thinking, no, the goal isn't 12, the goal is as many as I can. Like it might be 20, I don't know. Let me just do it. And you might only find you get an extra one or two. And that kind of calibrates where hard is for you. Now, if you're doing a program that has sets across, like let's say starting strength, where it's three sets of five. Well, by definition, to maintain five reps across three sets, first of all, you're gonna need enough rest to almost fully recover. You're not gonna fully fully recover because you would need a lot more rest to do that. But you're gonna pretty close to fully recover if you're taking your, say, three to five minutes of rest. But also by definition, the first set and probably second set are slightly sub-maximal compared to the third set. Because if they were truly all-out grinder maximum sets, you're probably not gonna be able to get five on the third set, even if you take like five or ten minutes to recover. Does that make sense? In which case, a sets across program, it is the weight that you're selecting is probably such that only the final set is really close to failure, and the first two are slightly submax compared to that. Does that make sense? Now, you're not necessarily overthinking this. You're starting at some load on the bar, let's say Monday for your squat, that's fairly easy to get, and then you're going up the next week. The key here is those jumps in weight are the very thing that's gonna determine whether you're gonna hit all the sets or not. And so it's important to jump the right amount. And that's kind of a little bit of a feel thing and an experience thing, and working with a coach can help. But I wanted to make sure to clarify the difference between that and rep range type work. Now, since we're talking mostly hypertrophy today, we're primarily talking about something where you have a rep range as opposed to sets across. But to put a cap on it, training effort, training close to failure is what's gonna produce the result. So if you're doing a bunch of sets that are far short of that, they're kind of wasted sets. That's my point. All right, training variable number three in the hypertrophy hierarchy is progressive overload itself. Now you might say, okay, progressive overload, is that is that a variable that I can control, or is that just a thing that happens? Well, it's a little of both. We're gonna explain. Progressive overload is the adaptation mechanism. Your muscles only grow, okay, the sarcomeres in the muscle cells only get bigger if you give them a reason too, if you send the signal, if you tell your body this is important. And that reason is consistently increasing the absolute mechanical tension on those muscles over time. And why did I say it that way? Absolute meaning the the mechanical tension should go up over time. The relative mechanical tension is always going to be consistent with variable number two, one to three reps shy of failure. So let me let me tight, let me mention that again, okay? The relative mechanical tension should always be close to failure. The absolute mechanical tension, therefore, will have to go up because as you're getting relative close mechanical tension close to failure, and then you go to sleep and you eat, your muscles will grow, you'll be a little bit stronger, and that same that same level of mechanical tension you had last time won't be enough to get you to one to three repshire failure, and you're gonna have to do something about it. You're gonna have to lift more weights or and or do more reps so that you get into that regime of one to three repshire failure or do more sets. Because imagine if you did three sets last time and now you do a fourth set, that should push you into that regime as well. And it could be any combination of these things. This is why programming can get confusing for people. I'm like, what the heck do I do? This is also why I like to simplify it for beginners. Don't overthink it, just lift more weight. Just lift more weight, even if it's rep ranges. You know, I hear questions on this all the time. Should I go up and wait or reps? I'm like, wait, just do weight for a long time. And I still to this day, as an intermediate slash advanced, I don't know what you'd call me lifter, but I've been doing it four or five years pretty consistently and doing it the right way. If I am running a, let's say, eight or twelve week block and I have, let's say, a Romanian deadlift for eight to 12 reps. Let's just say that's as simple as that. There's no other changing across the 12 weeks. It's just 12 straight weeks, Romanian deadlift, eight to 12 reps. If my first week I am at 10 reps, well, I'm in the rep range, I'm gonna go up and wait next week. Well, maybe it drops to nine because I just want it heavier. Fine, I'm still in the rep range. Gonna go up the next week. Maybe it drops to eight. All right, I'm still gonna go up. Okay, and again, I can't be going up too much where it's past my capacity, but I'm going up, let's say maybe five pounds. Maybe it's two pounds for you. Maybe it's 10 pounds if you're really light. Doesn't matter. You're going up, the rep range might, you know, and then the next week I might get nine again, even though I went up in weight. See, you never know, right? You never know what your body's gonna be capable of until you try it. Then I go up and weight again. Okay, now I'm down to eight. Fine, I'm still in the rep range. I go up again. You see what's happening, right? Let's say I hit eight again. Okay, I go up again. Oh, and now I can get seven and I can't quite get eight. That's where I do, uh I have a decision point. Do I drop the weight and do a reset or do I try to get more reps? And there's not really a right answer to that, in my opinion. It, you know, you should have progressed for multiple weeks before having to make that decision. Let's just put it that way. If you didn't, then you probably jumped up in weight too much, or maybe started too heavy to begin with. That makes sense. But at some point you get to that decision. And I might decide, okay, I'm gonna reset, I'm gonna drop by 10%, and I'm gonna try to get a lot more reps than I got last time at that same 10% lighter weight, let's say, which might have been four weeks ago. Or I can say, you know what, I got seven last week. I'm gonna keep the weight this week and try to get eight and then nine, and then I'm gonna increase the weight again and keep going up and weight. All right. My point with all of that discussion, that example, was almost all the time, especially if you're newer or even intermediate, focus on increasing the weight first. It just makes it so much easier to make progress. The caveat I've noticed is when you're in fat loss and it's a lot harder to progress. That's where maybe going up in reps can be more helpful. Other people have different philosophy. Other people are like, no, just go up in both. Go up. There's there's something called double progression where you do weight, then reps, then weight, then reps. Okay, I'm not saying there's necessarily a right or wrong. I just prefer the intensity variable, the weight variable, to the volume or the reps variable. Even though I said volume is important, I don't mean it from a reps perspective. I mean from an overall weekly sets perspective. Okay, I hope I haven't lost a bunch of you guys. The point of this principle of progressive overload is let's look at the opposite. If you do the same workout with the same weights for the same reps week after week, well, now your body has zero reason to build new muscle. So if you're using the pink or the purple or yellow dumbbells, okay, the same dumbbells you have, or if you're limited on dumbbells at home because they only go up to 20s, or you know who I'm talking to. I'm talking to a lot of you, trust me, I know it, and there's no way to increase them. How are you gonna challenge yourself? I'm sorry, that you've got to get either bigger dumbbells, adjustable dumbbells, move to a barbell, get a machine with a stack that has much more weight that you can load some way to increase. Now, progressive overload does not mean just adding weight every session. Okay, and I say it that way because there are different things you can add every session. And also, if you're more advanced, you're not probably not gonna be able to add weight if you're already really, really heavy on some lifts. It might you might add weight every two weeks, every four weeks, every three months, depending on how advanced you are, in which case you're you're progressing, you're progressing in other ways. You're progressing with the RPE or the RIR, you're progressing with sets, you're progressing with reps. It gets a little more complicated, but if you mapped it out on a graph and you just kind of multiplied all those variables together, it would be slowly going up anyway, in some way. Okay, so again, reps, weight, set, a combination of these, intensity in some cases when you're more advanced. That's what we mean by progression. And the only way you know you're doing that is to track. You have to have a training log so you know what you did last session, you know what you your PRs are, and you can aim to do slightly more. That's it. Otherwise, you're guessing, and guessing is not gonna build muscle, at least not efficiently. I know people who do it over a long period of time, just kind of intuitively, but just like with eating, it can work, but it's gonna take a lot longer and be more frustrating, have more plateaus, so it helps to track. All right, before we get to the last two variables in the hypertrophy hierarchy, I want to make, I want to just mention something real quick. That if you're over 40, a lot of these variables are working together with your recovery and your hormones, right? These are two big pieces that are all working together with your training because as you age, optimizing these variables, the progressive overload, volume, and then recovery, become even more important. They only become more important because they're more stressed out and they they're more limited, right? And that's not a bad thing. It just is what it is. We have to be cognizant of it. So we want to maintain and we want to build. We really want to build muscle. I hate to say maintain because you can build muscle through your 90s, we've seen in the evidence. So I have a free guide I think you're gonna like. It's called strength training for hormone health. It's not really just about hormones, it's more the idea that, you know, for those of us who are strength training over 40, it's important that we are supporting our hormones and triggering our testosterone, our growth hormone, reproductive hormones, all of that. And so it kind of ties the two concepts together naturally, strength training and hormone health. So go to wits and weights.com slash free or click the link in the show notes to grab that. Again, it's my strength training for hormone health guide. For those of us over 40, go to wits and weights.com slash free or click the link in the show notes. All right, continuing to variable number four, we have exercise selection. Now, I think this is a very important variable because it affects a lot of other things. It affects your time in the gym, your effectiveness, it affects the volume we talked about, it affects progressive overload. I mean, I just mentioned if you don't have the right dumbbells or equipment, it's gonna limit you. It's gotta be things that you could do consistently, and what I mean consistently is not just do them, but be able to do them in an objectively consistent way. You know, we know that if you do a barbell squat down to just below parallel with the same form each time, that is objectively consistent. But if you're doing like a half squat, which you shouldn't be doing, but let's say you were doing that on purpose, how would you get it exactly to that point each time? You would need like spotter arms or something like that. You I don't know if that's a great example, but the point is the standard traditional exercises we're familiar with have evolved like that for a reason because they're very objective and should form the foundation of your lifting, right? The novel fancy stuff, um, isometric holds and bandwork and everything. Have fun with that if you'd like. You know, kettlebells, TRX, all that stuff, in my opinion, is more complementary and shouldn't necessarily be the foundation. And I know there's some people gonna argue with me on that. There's actually some people who are really big into kettlebells and using them. And I don't I don't have hard feelings one way or the other. Let's just be honest. But the compound lifts, squats, deadlifts, bench press, rows, overhead press, those should be part of your foundation. The variations on those, and then the targeted isolation work for the smaller muscle groups to fill it in and also address weak spots. And individual variation does matter, right? We're not all special snowflakes, but everyone is different in objective ways, like our anatomy and our limb lengths, and our physical limitations and injury history and surgeries and things like that. So if an exercise hurts or doesn't feel like it's working the target muscle, something has to change. Now, maybe you don't have the right form. That's that's often the first thing to look at, but maybe you do, and it's just not the ideal exercise for you. I definitely have exercises like that where I just don't feel it as much. Like every time I do one arm rows, whether it's on a bench or up at an angle, it feels okay, but I feel like I'm doing, I'm feeling like I'm trying to pull a much heavier weight than what it's giving me. And I would rather do like a T-bar row or even uh one of my new favorite exercises now is just a standing cable row with an attachment. What I mean is I take a V or a neutral grip attachment at the low position, I stand back a little bit and I pull to my chest. Nice squeeze in the back. And I really feel that in the lats. You know, pull-ups, I really feel those in the lats as well. So you've got to find the things that give you what you want. Now, the big lifts like squats, deadlifts, rows, I think that's that's gonna benefit everyone no matter what. Or I said rows, but uh not barbell rows, but I meant bench and overhead press. But you've got to be able to stick to it, perform it well, and progressively overload through exercise selection. Now, a few things I want to mention. You know, the lengthened part of the movement is a really important part, which is why we should have full range of motion for most exercises. Now you're like, well, wait, why don't I just do the length and portion? I'm I'm cool with you doing the length and portion for like finishers, but for the most part, you want the full range of motion, making sure you're also getting into the long length. And and that a simple way to think about that is like, let's say you're doing a barbell curl on the down position, the eccentric, you don't want to go halfway down, you want to go all the way down and really stretch out. That's the length and portion, right? Exercises with a deep stretch. This is why I like squats below peril. This is one of many reasons. It's not just for that. When you do a Romanian deadlift, you know, you're gonna put push your butt back and really feel that stretch in your hamstrings in the length and portion. If you're not feeling that, something's off. The form's off or the range of motion's off, for example. And what's interesting is these are the most mechanically efficient ways to do the exercise that give you the biggest bang for your buck, which is also why the big compound lifts themselves are super important because they use the most muscle mass, the most muscle fibers, the deepest. They allow you to push the most load. So you're just getting so much efficiency out of it. All right, so exercise selection is really important. That's really all I wanted to talk about on it. It could be its own podcast, to be honest. But very, very important that you're not just doing a bunch of light bodyweight stuff, that you're doing important, efficient exercises, full range of motion, as much muscle mass as possible, hitting the target muscle groups to have enough volume and progressive overload for those other variables. Okay. And then variable number five is frequency. Now, frequency is how often you train each muscle group per week. Now, training variable number one was volume. If you want to hit the volume needed, let's say it's 10 sets a week per muscle group, you're probably gonna naturally have enough frequency to do it, as opposed to doing it all in one three-hour marathon session on Wednesday, right? Now, there are some theories out there about very, very low volume programs. I think a lot of them are not backed up as sufficient, and it's kind of an outlier. Up to you to experiment, obviously. But for most people, you're gonna need enough frequency, which means being in the gym probably three days a week or four days a week for a lot of people. And even if you're intermediate advanced, a three-day a week program could still be highly effective. That's kind of where I'm going with that, as long as you are getting enough frequency. For a lot of you, four days a week just naturally gives you enough frequency with not too much time in the gym and enough recovery. And that's why a lot of programs have four day splits. Five days is also another way to do it, to get even more volume or to spread out that volume a little more. And then that logic can be carried to even six days with much shorter sessions. So, what do I mean by frequency? Frequency, again, is if you are squatting, how often are you squatting during the week? Not how much volume. You know, in one session, you might do two, three, four sets, but are you then squatting two times a week or three times a week? And it doesn't have to be necessarily the exact same squat pattern or squat. It's a similar movement pattern. It might be on one day a barbell back squat, another day a front squat. Or it might be the same movement at different rep ranges, different intensities. Heavy, light, medium, for example. If you're doing Monday, Wednesday, Friday, you want to squat three days a week. For most people, training each muscle group two to three times a week is what's going to get you into that 10 to 15 rep uh 10 to 15 sets regime. And we have to think of both direct and indirect work. So the compound lifts, going back to the last variable, give you a lot of both direct and indirect work. The bench press gives you chest and triceps, for example, and some other muscle groups as well, including your shoulders. So that's where the efficiency comes in. Now, do you have to track all of this to that level? You don't have to. There are some apps like Boostcamp that I use. I'm use my code Wits and Weights, all one word, to I don't know what I forget what the promotion is now, sorry guys, but it would it would help me out if you use my code. Anyway, Boostcamp actually tracks a ranking of how many of what percentage of your volume went toward each muscle group, kind of ranks it and does it like a heat map. It's kind of cool. All right, but you don't have to do it to that level. You just have to know if you have well-rounded program with enough frequency and volume, you're gonna hit enough things. Now, in my case, I'm working on strengthening my back, my upper body more than my lower body or the front of my upper body. So I actually have more pulling volume on purpose. I've got more like 15 to 20 sets of pulling volume, and it might only have, let's say, between five and 15 sets of other stuff, like leg volume. And if, again, since you don't want to fit this all into one day, this is why we need at least three or four. If you're, let's say, in your 70s, you've never lifted weights before, you may respond really well to two days a week to start, right? It depends on where you are, where you've been, your history, your responsiveness. That's really all it is. And it takes a lot less to maintain than to build. So if you're in a little more, if you're more in a maintenance phase and trying to prioritize other things over fitness, that could be another reason to have like only two or three days instead of three or four. All right. So it all has to do with the total work done for the week per training variable number one and how it's spread out with your training split to get that volume via frequency. Now, there is a separate benefit to having more sessions in terms of well, there's several benefits, right? One is the fatigue gets spread out. Another is practical benefits of time, the way you don't have really long marathon sessions in the gym. Another is there potentially is a slight advantage to hitting more frequency, even if the volume's the same, in terms of the stimulus to your muscles for growth. And it kind of makes count, it kind of makes intuitive sense when you think of, okay, well, if I'm I'm hitting it more frequently, I'm getting a little boost in that muscle protein synthesis and that signal each time, and I'm still letting it recover. There's some logic to that versus hitting it once really heavy in one training session and waiting a whole week and potentially getting a little bit of D training going on, right? That kind of makes sense. So frequency is really important. All right. So now I want to give you one bonus variable. And I wanted this to make this a bonus because it I feel like it's not its own separate independent thing. And that is your recovery capacity. All right. Recovery is like the power supply under all of this. So it's kind of the foundation of all these variables. If you have a perfect training program and you're doing all the other five variables, but you're underfed, you're underslept, you're overstressed, it's not going to matter. It's going to be kind of a waste of time. If anything, it might even stress you out more and actually set you back. Right. So this is why recovery is kind of an underlying foundation. If the hypertrophy hierarchy is a pyramid, the recovery is the ground that it sits on. And if it's soft, the pyramid just starts to sink. Hey, that's a pretty good analogy. Just came up with that. Okay. So, so what is recovery? Well, we know what that is, guys. You listen to the show at all. If you're new to the show, you know, go check out uh some of the more recent podcasts. I know we've covered recovery in almost every podcast. And that is sleep, that is nutrition, that is managing your stress. And those determine whether everything you're doing in the gym translates to meaningful adaptations because your body is ready for them and capable of them. Sleeping enough, you know, seven to nine hours. So you build your muscle, which happens during your sleep, you know, your brain rebuilds itself during sleep, your muscle protein synthesis is affected by sleep, your training quality, how you utilize your food, et cetera. Speaking of food, eating enough calories, especially protein. But some of you are eating a decent amount of protein, but maybe not enough calories because you're afraid of gaining fat. You're afraid of getting fat. And that's a whole separate topic. But when it comes to building muscle, at least be around maintenance with your food and ideally in a slight surplus or even in a meaningful surplus, depending on if you're going after that, you know, muscle building phase. If you're in a deficit and trying to build muscle, it's going to be very hard. You're fighting an uphill battle. And if you're doing it on purpose because you're in a fat loss phase, that's cool. That like we make that trade-off and understand that all these variables are going to be hampered a bit. And maybe that's okay because we're just trying to hold on to muscle. Going back to what I mentioned about volume needing to be a lot less to hold on to muscle, and it's more of the intensity or the weight on the bar that that maybe counts a little bit more. You take all that into a mind, into mind. Did I say that right? Yeah. And then, of course, your life stress, your chronic stress, which elevates cortisol, interferes with your recovery muscle building as well. So all of those are important. And without good recovery, then optimal volume effort, progressive overload, all of that is not going to produce nearly the results that you'd want. And that's why it's one of the very first things I assess with clients. And in physique university, we actually have a tracker just for that, for biofeedback, for recovery. We talk about it all the time, almost more importantly than the training in food. Like training in food almost becomes kind of easy to understand. And then the recovery piece is where people get hung up, especially for those of us over 40 who are strength training over 40. We're like, man, we've got so much going on in our life. We have to figure out how to make this work. Okay. Because recovery mediates that training adaptation curve. Under recovery is going to nullify a lot of what you're doing, but being recovered well is going to be an accelerator. So taking all this together, the hypertrophy hierarchy, it I wanted this not just to be a list of very, it's not just a listicle of variables. Okay. It's a framework of training maturity. Training maturity. That's your ability to just step back, assess where you're at, focus your energy on that highest leverage variable for your situation, like an intelligent human being. It's why you listen to this show. Whether you're doing it on your own, you're working with a coach, you're working with us, in physique university, doesn't matter, right? The thing about leverage points is they're not always the same for everyone, and they're not the same at every stage, every age, every phase. If you're a beginner, your highest leverage point might be just adding weight to the bar and tracking your lifts. If you're intermediate, you might need to look at your volume. If you're advanced, you might need to see are you really putting enough into recovery as you need? Those are just some examples. And early in my training, or even before I got into so-called training, I was doing CrossFit and everything else. I was always chasing the fun, silly details, whether that was tempo or, you know, fun exercises or variety, you know, or even conditioning. And I wasn't tracking my lifts. I wasn't progressing overload, progressively overloading. I didn't even understand that concept. Once I did, it actually took out a lot of the stress. It made it made going to the gym a confident experience, a fun experience in some ways, even though it's hard in its own way. But I was actually getting meaningful growth rather than just this mediocre flat line for years where I'm like, hey, maybe it's my diet, maybe it's this, maybe it's that. Maybe I need to run more, right? No. Simplify it and focus on volume, effort, progressive overload. The things we talked about today, find that leverage point for you, and you're gonna start to take off and make those gains. Identify your highest leverage point right now. Take a pause on the podcast and say it out loud. Right now, say it out loud. I don't care if you're in around other people and they're gonna look at you funny. Is it volume? Is it effort? Which of the variables is it today? Go back, look at the show notes, and rank them for yourself. Then and only then worry about the other ones until you've addressed the first ones. And that's how you'll get more mature as a train trainee and make consistent progress and be intelligent about this whole thing. All right. So if you want structured programs that already have these principles in place and where we can teach you through curriculum how to apply everything and how to do other things, like to breathe and brace, for example, your gym equipment, what you should be wearing on your feet, like those kinds of details as well. Check out Physique University. Use the link in the show notes or go to witsandweights.com slash physique. Inside there, we give you training templates. Right now we're up to nine or 10, I believe. We have another one coming along the way for our strong finish challenge. And these are training templates designed around the hypertrophy hierarchy and the lifting lessons that teach you how to program for yourself. Now, I'm not saying you have to program yourself. You get all the templates and you can literally run them as is. But then we teach you, hey, how can you adjust this for you to make it even more effective and personalized? Right? The goal isn't just to give you a cookie cutter program, it's to teach you the skill around that as well so that you have it for life, and then you're like super confident about how to do this. So go to witsandweights.com slash physique to learn more. There's a special code in the show notes as well. The details are there, so go check out the show notes, wits and weights.com slash physique. All right, until next time, keep using your wits, lifting those weights, and remember to master the fundamentals before you chase the details. I'm Philip Higgs, and this is the Wits and Weights Podcast, and I will talk to you next time.

5 Body Recomp Mistakes (Why You're Not Losing Fat or Building Muscle) | Ep 395

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Join the 6-Week Strong Finish Challenge starting November 18th at witsandweights.com/physique and use code FREEPLAN for a custom nutrition plan. Learn to maintain your strength and body composition through the holidays using flexible systems (optimal, minimum, and bailout strategies) instead of rigid plans that collapse under pressure.

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Your body isn't listening. You train consistently, watch your protein, do everything the evidence says, but body recomposition isn't happening.

The problem isn't your effort. It's the signal between your actions and your physiology.

Discover the 5 biggest body recomp mistakes keeping intelligent, hard-working lifters stuck at the same body fat and muscle mass for months.

You'll get specific fixes to align your training, nutrition, and recovery so your body can actually build muscle and lose fat simultaneously... even if you're over 40.

Episode Resources

• Try MacroFactor free for 2 weeks with code WITSANDWEIGHTS at witsandweights.com/macrofactor

Timestamps

0:00 - Why your body ignores your effort despite consistent training
2:49 - Mistake #1: Eating like you're dieting instead of building muscle
8:17 - Mistake #2: Training to burn calories instead of build muscle
13:42 - Mistake #3: Ignoring recovery and sleep
23:20 - Mistake #4: Tracking the wrong metrics
28:25 - Mistake #5: Expecting rapid results

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• Transcript

  Philip Pape: 0:01

  Do you ever feel like your body isn't listening despite consistent training, watching your protein, doing what the evidence says to do, and yet body recomposition, building muscle, losing fat is somehow not happening. What's probably breaking down is that signal between your actions and your physiology. It's not because you don't have the effort. It is probably because your body is receiving the wrong message, which then leads to the wrong outcome and frustration. Today I'm walking you through the five biggest body recomp mistakes that I see keeping intelligent, hardworking lifters stuck at the same body fat and muscle mounts in the specific fixes that align your training, nutrition, and recovery. Welcome to Wits and Weights, the show that helps you build a strong, healthy physique using evidence, engineering, and efficiency. I'm your host, Philip Pape, and today we are again talking about body recomposition, building muscle, and losing fat, and the frustration when you're not able to achieve it. Especially if you are putting in effort, especially if that effort is consistent. Solid training, on-point nutrition, and yet things aren't changing. Now, if you're not doing those things, that to me is the easy part. That's the low-hanging fruit. Even consistency, which I talk about a lot as one of the most critical variables, is still not going to buy you the result if you're not consistent in the right things. And maybe you're doing one thing, like you're able to lose a little bit of fat, but you feel like you haven't gained any muscle definition, or you've gained a little muscle, but you can't seem to drop that fat. This is kind of the body composition problem that is really common as we get older, especially over 40 lifters over 40 who are smart like you, you listen to podcasts, you understand the evidence, you know what protein synthesis is, you might even be tracking your lifts and your nutrition, and somehow your body's not quite responding. Now, I'm not talking about corner cases or specific medical or healthcare issues related to, for example, hormones or something going on in your blood work. I'm not talking that today. Today I'm talking about really the big mistakes that people are making that will uh quickly get you over a hump to start making progress. And so it's not about working harder, it's not about your effort, it's not dedication. And again, it's not just consistency. It's there are misalignments in your approach that compound over time. You feel like you're doing all this stuff, your body just let's say it adapts to maintain where it is instead of to transform. And that is really tough for a lot of us. So I'm gonna break down five common body recomp mistakes that create this situation. These are not just beginner errors, these are mistakes that very informed, intelligent people make, and I'm gonna give you the fixes that will make them work. So let's get into it. Mistake number one is you are eating like you are dieting instead of recomping. Now, this is a there's some nuance here, okay? This is actually the number one mistake I see. People hear body recomposition and they think, okay, I need to train harder. That's the muscle side. I need to eat less and I need to diet to lose fat and kind of do them together. And they often drop into basically a fat loss phase, which is usually some sort of calorie deficit, often an aggressive deficit, thinking, okay, that's how I can do both at the same time. And there's a lot of people that talk about body recomp from the dieting perspective. But I think the problem is that even a moderately aggressive calorie deficit is gonna highly suppress your muscle protein synthesis beyond the beginner stage. Again, we're not talking about the beginners. When you first start, your body's very responsive. You gain those few pounds of muscle, and maybe you could lose some fat, right? And that's great. But we're talking about people who have hit a wall. And when any deficit at all, especially if it's reasonable, you know, reasonably high, I should say, is going to impair your recovery, which reduces your performance in the gym. And yes, you might start losing weight on the scale and dropping some body fat and at best holding on to muscle, but you're probably not building a muscle. And I talk all the time about the importance of a muscle-first approach. And this really defeats the purpose of recomp. Now you might say, oh, what if I want to lean out first and then build muscle? You can definitely do that. You can definitely do that. Okay. And for somebody who's carrying extra weight, maybe they're not happy with the layer of fat they have in their body. I'm not against that approach. You know, setting things up for about a month or two, then going into a fat loss phase first and then going to building. I'm not against that. What I'm against here is constantly trying to bias your approach toward that dieting side, thinking that, okay, the muscle's gonna slowly build because I'm training hard, right? I'm training in the gym, like Philip says. And, but I really need to lose that fat. And you kind of get stuck in a rut between the two directions. If you were to do a very aggressive fat loss phase and just like focus and get it done, and then do a very, you know, moderate to aggressive muscle building phase, I wouldn't be judging, I'm not judging. This wouldn't be an issue because it probably would work for you. Okay. But a lot of you are just not spending the time building muscle. You are always eating like you're dieting, even when, even when you're not quite in a deficit, if that makes any sense. All right. We we look at the research, right? When we talk about muscle gain, we know that we need a neutral or slightly positive energy balance. Even in successful recomp studies, the participants are always eating at or near maintenance with high protein intake, progressive resistance training. You're not in a deep deficit, right? I this is kind of what I'm trying to get across. It's an input-output problem. Your body needs enough energy to fuel the training, the recovery, the energy-intensive process of building new muscle. And if you don't do that, you're gonna stall. So even if you're like, hey, but I want to lose fat as well, if you are in a deficit, you're pretty much only gonna lose fat. You're not gonna build much muscle. You might build a little tiny bit, but it's just gonna be negligible. It's not gonna be what you are going for. When people say, hey, I don't see definition in my muscles yet, and I've been doing this for a year or two, on that time scale, you're not going to see it unless you give it that time to build muscle. And so I think the sweet spot for a lot of people is your maintenance calories or very close to it. I personally like aggressive maintenance, which is going a little bit above that, making sure there's that high protein signal, plenty of carbs to fuel energy and recovery, right? We know the protein piece is critical. Somewhere between 0.7 and one grams per pound is kind of optimal. But if you want to push that a little bit more and see how you respond, not against that for some people in terms of experimentation, right? And so if you don't have muscle to begin with, why are you just trying to preserve the muscle you have rather than trying to add new muscle? So the fix here, I think, is yes, you should be tracking your food in some capacity so you understand what your maintenance calories are, whether you use macrofactor or whether you just do it, you know, over time, keeping your weight fairly stable and eating at the what it takes to do that. You you've got to kind of know where that level is so you're not accidentally dieting or gaining too much weight. And then you want to keep the calories pretty much there. It's consistency is a lot easier to get to when you're trying to maintain at that level or a little bit higher and really feel fueled. But you're also gonna look at your biofeedback, you know, your weight trend, your measurements, your performance in the gym. If you're not gaining strength, something has to be adjusted. And if you're eating like you're in a fat loss phase, thinking you're gonna recomp, you're not recomping. You're gonna be in an aggressive deficit, have low energy, both actual energy coming in and probably the biofeedback of energy. And that's just kind of an inefficient way to be quote unquote dieting. So again, if you're trying to recomp, if you're actually trying to recomp, try to get at least a maintenance, if not an aggressive maintenance. We covered all this in the 90-day body recomp workshop in physique university. And you could always jump in if you're a member listening, you can go find that replay from I think it was August, September, August? No, I think it was August. And if you're not in, you could always join and go grab that. And it has the whole process for doing this, including the aggressive maintenance. But I think that's the first and biggest mistake and probably the easiest one for a lot of you to fix. I get there's fear around gaining weight. That's a whole different situation. But if you're not in a meaningful surplus, you're not gonna gain much weight at all. And if anything, you're gonna just accidentally lose some fat along for the ride when you're not focusing on eating like you are dieting. All right, mistake number two is that when you exercise, when you train, when you move, you're always thinking about burning calories and you're not thinking about muscle. So notice the pattern here, okay? You know, you're listening to wits and weights. You know strength training is important. If you don't, I'm telling you right now, it is probably the number one thing you can do if you're not doing it. Everybody should be lifting weights, in my opinion, pretty much to the day you die. And you've got to lift. You've got to lift. But the mindset has to go along for the ride. And that means a mindset of training to improve and progress and get stronger and build muscle, not going to the gym and exercising, not going to the gym just to burn calories. Even when you are doing cardio, believe it or not, you shouldn't be thinking in terms of burning calories so much as supporting your muscle building and your recovery and your fitness and your mobility and all the things except that. And I know it's hard to do because we're so fixated on the old paradigm of, you know, eat less, move more, you exercise to lose weight, and you do it to burn calories. When in reality, that usually has the opposite effect. And so when you're doing the YouTube style workouts, circuit training, you're doing around, you know, as many reps as possible, no rest periods, all of that, thinking it's going to somehow help your fat loss or burning more calories, it usually backfires, it usually stalls out your muscle building, and it usually sends the wrong signal to your body that you are an endurance machine rather than a muscle, you know, strength machine. And your calories actually come down, you know, in terms of your expenditure, metabolism, right? And then it gets frustrating because you don't see the results you want, you don't see the muscle definition. And a lot of you out there I know are not training the right way. I work with new clients all the time who've been going to the gym. Maybe they have a trainer. A lot of these trainers are good, many of them not so good. And I'll give them a program. And unless I'm very careful about prescribing exactly what to do, I will see some mistakes, like, and and some of you know who you are, so I'm not gonna call out names, where they'll see five exercises with three sets each, and they'll do all five exercises for one set and they'll rotate around and do it two more times, kind of like a circuit. And I have to, I have to remind remind myself that this is where a lot of people come from. And I have to kind of reteach the idea that no, you do one exercise, you go through all the sets, and you have sufficient rest period because the goal here is to train really hard to get in the volume and also that muscular tension to grow. And then you go to the next one and the next one. Sure, there's place for supersets and all that. We're not gonna get into this on this episode, but the point of training is to build that strength and build that muscle, not to burn calories because that's not gonna optimize muscle growth thinking that way. Muscle growth requires mechanical tension, progressive overload. You have to lift heavy enough weights through a full range of motion, enough rest between sets to recover and maintain performance. And when you're lifting heavy like that, when you have rest periods like that, you're gonna find that training feels a little bit slower and more mindful. It almost feels less hard from a work capacity and a cardio or heart rate perspective, but it should feel more hard from a pure strength effort perspective. And many people find that that is a really fun, amazing change. I hear it all the time from clients like, whoa, I really like doing sets of five or eight instead of 12 or 15. You know, I really like that because it's hard in a different way. It's hard in a more satisfying, thrilling kind of way that I'm getting strong and I'm really pushing these heavy weights. And I have to be mindful and focus on my form and that tension and that neutrality, my back and the skill of the thing, which becomes its own sense of personal growth and satisfaction while also serving the purpose of building your muscles and your strength, right? And your body's gonna respond to the quality and type of stress that you apply, not to the quantity of energy that you burn during a workout. And by the way, interestingly, when you are doing really heavy lifts, oftentimes you burn just as many calories anyway. You don't really realize it. Your heart rate gets jacked up. I don't want to say that lifting is cardio, although I want to do an episode that's kind of on that theme, but it accounts for much of that heart health and cardio and calorie burn, even though that is not the point. So, going back to you think of strength training or even bodybuilding, where you're gonna have two, three, four minutes of rest between heavy compound lifts, that is because you're focused on the intensity. By intensity, I mean the weight on the bar and getting that mechanical tension with as many muscle fibers as possible. And that requires you to be as well rested and training hard as possible. So if you train for muscles instead of calories, if you structure your training, not your exercise, you're not your workouts, even though I use the word workouts a lot, you're training around that constant improvement, plenty of rest, plenty of performance, plenty of effort, right? Good form, you're gonna be good. You're gonna be good. If you need to increase your expenditure, that usually happens outside the gym. Walking more, getting more sleep, less stress, not eating like you're dieting all the time. Go back to mistake number one. And honestly, when you train properly for muscle growth, your body composition is then going to improve faster anyway, because you're gonna see much more of that muscle definition. Muscle itself is more metabolically expensive. Your expenditure might even go up just from that. Not a lot from that, but my point is the fact that you're training in that way is gonna cascade everything else. Okay, let's go to mistake number three, and that is that you are ignoring recovery and sleep. I can talk about this enough, but he but it's potentially could be the number one mistake for some of you, at least the most underrated of the five. And that is because the training that you do in the gym is a tiny slice of your week. What you do outside the gym is what really supports the adaptations, the muscle growth. You know, we know that nutrition supports all this as well, obviously. But recovery and rest is actually gonna jack up your insulin sensitivity, your nutrient partitioning, your fat loss, it's gonna reduce your belly fat, it's gonna help with your recovery and blood flow, it's gonna reduce your soreness, and the list goes on. We know that your hormones get wacky when you are restricted with your sleep. Getting less than six hours every night, if you are a less than six hour sleeper, I want you to put this at the top of your list. How can you get more and better quality sleep? Or else you are hampering your testosterone, your cortisol, your reproductive hormones, your hunger hormones, you're gonna impact muscle synthesis, blunt your glyc, you know, how you restore glycogen. It sabotages every adaptation you're trying to create with your training, thus making it so much less efficient that I'm not gonna say what's the point. I'm just gonna say why would you do that? Chronic stress does the same thing. When your cortisol is always jacked up, you're in this catabolic state. Your body wants to break down tissue to grab more energy that it's lacking because you're not getting enough uh rest in that parasympathetic state, right? So your recovery capacity then plummets, your performance then suffers. It's kind of a vicious cycle. Recovery itself is a multiplier and it goes both ways. You can't out train a system that's under-recovered. I'm actually doing an episode Wednesday all about the, what is it called? It's all about the priorities in your hypertrophy or in your training. I forget the title that I'm giving it. This is a terrible sales pitch. But it's about what should you prioritize in what order when it comes to your strength training. And not even on that list because it's overriding everything and almost makes the list less relevant, is your recovery. In other words, it's not on the list because it's part of everything. It's like the foundation of everything, right? Your parasympathetic nervous system, this is the rest and digest system, is what drives tissue repair and hormonal balance, homeostasis. It's the foundation of body composition or recomposition. But if you're in this high stress, jacked up fight or flight state, constantly training, constantly exercising, constantly stressed, you're never going to activate that system long enough to really help those adaptations. You're gonna blunt lots of things. So if you are listening to this and you're like, oh my God, that could be the reason I'm not seeing my muscles start to pop and get defined. Even if I lost a little body fat, for some reason my training seems to be going to waste a little bit. Maybe it's because you're underrecovered. I mean, it doesn't take a lot of under-recovery for this to be a big problem. The fix, of course, is to prioritize your sleep. That's the big one for everyone. Seven to nine hours, non-negotiable, and doing all the things with your environment, with your pre-sleep ritual, with the things we talk about over and over again. And I hope you you keep listening to this podcast and it'll kind of sink in over time how important this is. Because hearing it just once, you're like, okay, sleep fine. I'm not gonna do anything about that. What's the next, what's the next uh secret, Philip? Okay, no, this is the big secret because it has everything to do with your training performance and your hunger hormones, your belly fat. Hey, look, if you got too much belly fat and you want to drop that belly fat, improve your sleep. All right. The second thing is some of you are never taking rest days. You've got to take at least one, if not two, if not three, full rest days per week. And I mean a real rest day, not this quote unquote active recovery day that is so popular where you're still doing a light workout or you're going for a run or doing some intense cardio. Okay. If you've got things dialed in, if things are optimized, having sprinting or some form of cardio on those days is cool. But a lot of you just overdoing it and you're in the gym seven days a week. And I would strip it all the way back to three full body days if you've never done that before, and just see what it does for your recovery and your results. You might find, here's the thing. Imagine this: you go to three days and you do that for let's say eight weeks, eight weeks. That's like two months. See what happens to your strength and your muscle. If it improves, what that tells you is that you can get a result on this like minimum set of time in the gym and maximum set of rest. And that's a great starting point to build from. Because then, okay, if you want to add another day in, you kind of know what you're comparing to. And if it gives you a little more, great, but it's not probably gonna give you as much as just the fact that you have all that recovery. And then maybe you go to five days max, but that's it. That's it. Have those full rest days built into there. Your body needs that break to consolidate those adaptations. And then the third thing here in this thing about recovery is the use of auto-regulation. What is that? Auto regulation sounds like one of those fancy engineering words. It's actually a commonly used training term where you adjust your training to your performance capability that day. Now, I have to be very clear, it's not just a willy-nilly how I feel, like, oh, I'm kind of tired today or I don't feel too strong today, so I'm just gonna go half-acid on my workout. It's more like if you if the weights feel are start feeling really heavy and you're dragging and and you've done the things, and maybe you haven't done the things, maybe you had a bunch of alcohol last night, maybe you didn't sleep in, maybe you're hungover, maybe you ate too much last night, whatever. Okay, you warm up as if you're gonna train at your programmed level. And then if the objective signal is telling you that you don't quite have the capacity that day, auto-regulation is saying, okay, how do I regulate automatically to that situation, but still train hard? And what that might look like, it might look like a little reset in your lifts, in your weights. It might, but it might simply be you get a you get a rep less, right? Or you drop the weights on sets two and three to get the reps, like things like that where you're still training really hard, keeping that intensity high, and there's just some little give in the load or volume or some variable, as opposed to taking it all off or completely dialing back and not really getting much out of your session. That makes sense. So, like if you are in a fat loss phase, auto-reg, there are auto-regulated ways to train that allow you to train your hardest knowing that you have limited resources. If you fix mistake number one that I talked about today, like not always being in a dieting mode and you're actually eating enough and fueling yourself enough, you shouldn't have to auto-regulate in the same way you would in fat loss. However, some days you are just not gonna have the energy, you're gonna be stressed out of your mind, maybe you didn't have enough sleep. So you've basically given yourself a downgrade because you didn't do the other things, right? You didn't do the recovery. And that's okay, it happens. I'm not saying you have to be perfect, I'm saying that happens. And then it's almost like you're temporarily in a fat loss phase. And the question is, what are you gonna do about it? Now, some people may decide, you know what, since I'm working out three days a week, I've got four rest days, I can shift, I can shift out one day. You may need to do that. That may actually be the beneficial choice to make. But auto-regulation can be very, very helpful as a way to incorporate proper recovery or adjust to your recovery capacity, right? And since we're talking about recovery, I did want to take a quick break to talk about something that has been really awesome for my own recovery. I just talked about how critical sleep is for body recomposition. You know, all of that adaptation, the muscle growth, the fat loss happens during recovery. And we talked about quantity of sleep, but we also need to talk about the quality of your sleep. And I just want to talk right now about one thing that I started using, oh, about three months ago. My kids love it because they they're like, uh looks like mommy put on the uh, the cozy earth sheets. They're they're they're very special set of sheets compared to the other ones I have. They're made from viscos from bamboo. And it's kind of weird because they cool you down, right? They take the heat out. And it's winter now. And I thought, okay, does that mean they're gonna be freezing cold? No, it's like that sense of relaxing, cool, but having the comforter on top of it still keeps you overall warm, if that makes any sense. And I think the difference between those and other sheets is extremely, I'll say, I'll say palpable, right? They they're they're very breathable, they're like silky, but not in that sweaty, like actual silk. They're actually like very glide, they glide and they're soft. And what I like them because I get really hot at night and they help me stay cool through the night, which means deeper sleep, better recovery. And man, my HRV, my stats on my aura ring all seem to improve when we have those sheets on the bed. So I'm telling my wife I need to get a few more sets. Right. And if you're again, if you're looking at those things that can help you rest well and really make the most of the sleep where you optimize the use of your protein, you know, you reduce the hunger, help with your belly fat, and all that. I would think about these types of things. So I'm a big fan of cozy earth sheets. If you go to wits and weights.com slash cozy earth, you can use my code wits and weights at check out and get 20% off. They have sheets. They also have a lot of other products you can check out, but the sheets are absolutely my favorite, all different colors. Go to witsandweights.com slash cozy earth. Use my code wits and weights for 20% off. By the way, when you go to that site, it's gonna show you the code as well, in case you forget it. So just use the link in the show notes or go to witsandweights.com slash cozy earth for those oh so comfortable, oh so cooling, bamboo derived sheets from Cozy Earth. All right. Mistake number four is that you're not measuring the right things, the my right metrics. And this is where the people listening, you you, the listener, you know, you're probably listening to wits and weights because you like data efficiency, maybe that engineering mindset that I try to bring to this process. And you probably tracking certain things. But what I find talking to people on calls and new clients that come into physics university, for example, is they're not necessarily tracking the right things or the things that they're tracking, they're not using them the right way. Let's talk about scale weight, for example. A lot of misconceptions. A lot of you are only tracking scale weight sporadically, or like once a week or once a month. And the problem with those is you can get a high point or a low point, and it doesn't actually tell you what's going on with body fat because those high and low points can be multiple pounds in either direction or kilograms based on water fluctuation. And so I'm a huge fan of weighing yourself every day because then you can take a smoothed average over time to tell you what's actually happening with the deep down storage of fat, which is hard to measure in the short term. It takes about three weeks to measure a change there. That's why I think the process is more important than the data sometimes, but they kind of go hand in hand. And body recomp in particular, where you're trying to lose muscle and gain fat, or you're trying to gain muscle and lose fat at the same time, your scale weight might stay the same. And that's not gonna tell you much, is it? So, you know, yeah, that's one thing, at least to know that you're not gaining or losing too much. But then you need the other stuff, your, you know, circumference measurements. I mean, honestly, if you just had to pick one, I would go with your waist at the navel, at the navel. That alone, if that's dropping, you're losing fat. And so if your weight's the same, the waist is dropping. That's a great leading indicator of body composition change, especially if then you have indications of muscle growth, like your biceps are going up, your chest is going up, right? I usually use about six or eight different data points when I work with clients. Um, we have this thing called the biofeedback or physique and biofeedback tracker in physique university. It's basically a spreadsheet where if you put these measurements in, it'll measure your body fat, your lean mass, your fat-free mass index, and it'll also show you what's happening from one data point to the next to kind of understand, okay, over this body recomp phase, I've had roughly this muscle to fat ratio of change. And I think that's really important because it gives you a nice boost of motivation when you say, look, my scale weight hasn't changed. It's hard to see the change in the mirror because you don't notice change unless you go and look at a before and after photo over a decent amount of time. And so something like circumference measurements give you a fairly rapid indicator. And by rapid, I mean over several weeks, not you know, day to day, obviously. I mentioned photos. I think progress photos can be moderately helpful. Ironically, I think they're more helpful when someone else is looking at them, yet that's what we are most probably embarrassed to do. If you're a private client of mine, you know, that's part of the process. And I get you would feel probably safest in that environment being one-to-one. If you're more in a bigger setting or a group setting, it's not necessarily something you want to do. But I wouldn't discourage it in if if you wear appropriate clothing and want to say, hey, here's where I was eight weeks ago, here's where I am now. Here's what I'm noticing about myself. Hey guys, what do you notice? And and, you know, assuming this is in a safe place where people give you constructive positive feedback, which I tell you, any group that I run is going to be like that, or you're out. So if, you know, anybody listening who's in physique university, go ahead and post your photos in whatever channel makes sense and let us know, you know, objectively what we are looking for. Are we are we looking to get a bigger back? Are we looking to get, you know, more defined shoulders? Are you looking to just drop body fat and start showing your six pack? Right, those kinds of things can be indicators of what is going on. And sometimes only other people can see them. Uh, the next thing is really your performance. And performance is usually your lifting progress. Are you adding weight, adding reps and weight, you know, because here's the other thing people say, look, I don't see it too much in my in the mirror. My waist hasn't changed that much, but my numbers have get gone up and up and up and up. And a lot of times when that happens, you've got a little bit of a layer of fat that's been there the whole time. And now your muscles underneath have been building and getting bigger, and you still don't quite see the definition you want. That's the point at which, well, I know my fat-free mass index has gone up. I know I built some more muscle. Well, maybe now if I do a fat loss phase, I can reveal some of that and I can be kind of put a put a bow on this whole process to reveal what I've got, right? So sometimes that's what it takes is a combination of these metrics, comprehensive tracking system with some key things that make a lot of sense. That's it. That's really what this mistake is that a lot of you are not measuring the right things. You're measuring scale weight sporadically, you're not tracking your lifts, you're focused too much on, say, the mirror and feeling, you know, mirror or or maybe comparing yourself to other people or whatever. Things that are not objective that really tell you what's going on. All right. Mistake number five is you're expecting rapid results. Yep. I said it. This is the one that's about mindset more than anything. It's not about tactics, but it's extremely important because you're expecting a quick result. I'm not talking about one week, I get it, but whatever you're expecting, it's probably too quick in general. In fact, I'd like you when you're listening to this to ask yourself if what you're expecting is realistic. Because when you decide you want to recomp, you want to build muscle and lose fat, you're over 40, whatever, and you set up your training, you dial in the nutrition, you start executing the plan, and then three weeks goes by, four weeks goes by, and it it feels like nothing has changed. And this definitely ties into some of the other fix mistakes we've already talked about, doesn't it? Because body recomposition by definition is inherently slow. I shouldn't say by definition, that doesn't, that's meaningless. But the here's here's the thing the bottleneck is the muscle. It takes long, a long time to build muscle, no matter what, even if you are intentionally in a surplus trying to build muscle. So if you now slow that down by staying closer to maintenance to try to get recomp out of it, you're slowing that process down even further. And because you're not an aggressive deficit, you're not necessarily losing fat. And even if you were, you don't have the muscle yet, right? It's kind of a catch 22. So by saying that, hey, I don't want to gain fat by going into a surplus, or hey, I don't really want to do an aggressive diet because I know muscle is important, you're then putting Yourself into a new quandary, aren't you? Right. And I'm sorry because I encourage this for some of you, because you don't want those extremes. So you're left with this thing in the middle. And by definition, you're not going to have as fast results in either direction, but you're going to have steady results that are sustainable in a process and a lifestyle that you might really, really enjoy and be able to stick to. And that's why you would do it. But if you think the process isn't working, and as a result, you cycle back to some extreme, extreme diet, extreme cutter bulk, let's say, and not done the right way because you're rushing into it, that creates a bigger problem. Let's look at numbers. I like numbers, okay? For trained lifters, people who have been lifting for a while, muscle growth rates average about a quarter to a half percent of body weight a month, upper end. Okay. So if you weigh, let's say 180 pounds, you're looking at a pound, what am I trying to say? A half a pound to a pound of muscle in a month if you're doing everything right. And then and then fat that comes along for the ride, because if you're obviously eating more of a surplus than that, the rest of it's gonna be fat. That's why it's kind of hard to find that sweet spot sometimes. Fat loss is a lot faster, right? It's more like it could be a half to a percent of body weight per week, right? So it's like four times as fast. Now, when you're trying to do both at once, you're trying to gain muscle and lose fat simultaneously, the process is even slower because the two goals pull your body in opposite directions. Your body kind of wants to stay in the middle and you're fighting against its natural tendency by trying to push both things and doing them kind of, I don't want to say mediocre, but you're making a trade-off. So if you were to extrapolate body recomp without doing a cut or a bulk, I would give yourself six to 12 months of consistent execution to see a meaningful change that first time. Now, if you have a lot of fat to lose, or if you've never built muscle, you might be better off with a more aggressive fat loss or muscle building phase. And I know it's not what you want to hear, right? We live in a world of instant gratification. We want to see results now. We've got tools and drugs and things that make results faster as well. But your physiology doesn't care, does it? It just operates on what it's gonna do. And everyone's is different. We've talked about the difference between consistency and intensity. Intensity or speed, chasing that, you chase speed, it's gonna create instability. Think about it. Chasing speed creates instability because it's gonna create a lot of change and volatility and ups and downs that you will probably have a gut reaction to, and you'll try to go the other way, and it's gonna just create this big oscillating effect that's gonna get you even more nowhere. Whereas body recomp is trying to get somewhere by towing the line in the middle and optimizing these variables. So realistic expectations from the start are really important. Committing to six to 12 months of steady execution, you don't have to be perfect, right? Just consistent. Again, that goes back to the consistency piece. And then focusing on measuring the right things rather than the outcome, measuring the process metrics, the protein, the training, the sleep, all the things we talked about today, tying it all together, reassess. I would say monthly at minimum, but quarterly is probably where you're gonna get the best bang for your buck with body recomp. So, for example, those in our program in physique university, we do weekly check-ins that are more about the process and the wins. And then we want to look at two, three, four-month phases at a time to see true progress and then make big adjustments at that point if it's still not going where you want to go. But by that point, it should if you're doing these things. And then you could say, look, am I leaner and stronger than I was three months ago? If you could answer that question even a little bit, then you've done something right. It may not be to the degree you wanted, and in many cases, it's beyond what you expected, right? There's often a surprise in this in this situation because you're actually focusing on the process in the short term. And then three months down, you actually look at the big picture. You step back and say, before and after what happened, and you're kind of shocked. And then you'll see the progress. But if you're always zooming in, if you're looking at the day-to-day fluctuations, not the process, right? But if you're looking at the actual day-to-day outcomes, you're gonna drive yourself crazy. You're gonna quit before the process has time to work. This process is applied physiology. If it had a degree name in a college, it'd be called a bachelor's in applied physiology. Okay. And it works, but it works slowly. You have to be patient, you have to trust the process and give your body time. I'm sorry, that is not gonna sell programs. I know it's not, but it's the truth. All right, so we covered the five, I don't know if they're the five biggest, but they're five of the biggest body recomp mistakes I see. When you feed your body enough to grow, when you train for muscle, when you prioritize recovery, when you track the right things, and when you give it time, the system always works. And the neat thing about this is they are not isolated mistakes or variables or fixes. They're interconnected. Because if you, let's say if you don't eat enough, your recovery is also going to suffer, suffer, which means your performance is also going to drop, which means you can't build muscle. And then if you're not really tracking these things, you're not even gonna see that that's happening. Right? So it's all tied together. And that's how we can identify your weak points. That's how we can fix them and stop making this feel like a mystery and start making it feel inevitable. Like, hey, I have confidence, I know this works, it's inevitable. Now, last thing I want to mention, if you want help implementing anything we talk about on this show, we do a lot of really cool things inside Physique University. And the next cool thing we're doing just in a few weeks, starting November 18th, is a six-week strong finish challenge. And rather than all the other challenges out there that are designed to like try to lose fat or dial in all your habits during the holidays, which as we know is pretty close to impossible for many of us. This is designed to teach you how to maintain what you have with three options. The optimal option, the one that, yeah, you can go for it and maybe you'll get there. The minimum option, which is, hey, here's the minimum thing that is still going to give you most of the results, or option three is the bailout option. Now, I know you don't hear a lot of coaches talk about this, but you know, I was brainstorming with my assistant coach, Carol, and others, you know, some clients, and we're like, look, what if you can't even do the minimum? Like, what if just you know what hits the fan, it's the holidays, everything's a mess, my schedule's all over the place, my kids got all these activities, and I literally just can't even do the minimum. What do I do? That's where the bailout strategy comes in. That is like, what is the not even minimum? What do you call it? It's like the backup to the backup plan that still gets you a win. And I think psychologically it can be very powerful. And that's what we're gonna be teaching in this challenge. I know it's very different. It's called the six-week strong finish challenge. Starts November 18th, which means it takes you through the end of the year. What's cool about the challenge is everybody's gonna be able to get tons of wins and really feel proud about themselves going into the end of the year that you maintained instead of backsliding like everyone else is doing. And then you're in a really good position mentally and physically, you don't feel depleted going into the new year. And I'm all about New Year's resolutions if you want to do them. I'm sure we're gonna have some sort of challenge or group cohort or something in the new year to help people who really want to get off on the right foot. But let's finish the year strong. So, anyway, if you join physique university right now, you can get a head start because you'll get a custom nutrition plan. If you use my code in the show notes, it's a free plan. And you'll get access to the course library. You can kind of get things rolling with our onboarding and get your nutrition plan set up and start figuring out the habits you need to dial in with our help. And then in a few weeks, the challenge begins and you'll kind of be in a good state to just execute on that and be fairly low stress through the holidays rather than trying to run one of those all-out fat loss challenges at just the wrong time of year. So if you want to get in on that, go to witsandweights.com slash physique or use the link in the show notes. Use the code FREEPLAN, get the free custom nutrition plan that I will build for you personally. Get ready for the strong finished challenge. I'll see you there, witsandweights.com slash physique. Until next time, keep using your wits, lifting those weights. And remember that body recomp isn't about doing more, it's about aligning the right inputs so your body can adapt. I'll talk to you next time here on the Wits and Weights podcast.

The RAW TRUTH About Fitness, AI, and Influencers (Adam Schafer of Mind Pump) | Ep 394

Love what you’re hearing from Adam? Take the guesswork out of training with the MAPS workout programs from Mind Pump.

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Ever feel like the more fitness podcasts you listen to, the less you know about how to build muscle, lose fat, and actually see progress? Are AI tools and influencers helping your nutrition and fitness goals, or just creating more noise? If you want real results with body recomp and strength training, this episode cuts through the confusion.

I sit down with Adam Schafer, co-founder of Mind Pump, one of the best fitness podcasts out there, to uncover what truly matters in building muscle and mastering your metabolism. We break down how to stay consistent, filter evidence-based training from fitness fads, and focus on the habits that last. Adam shares how to simplify lifting weights, fuel your body with the right macros, and make progress that sticks.

If you’re ready to think clearly, train smarter, and make fitness fit your life, join me, Philip Pape, on Wits and Weights.

Today, you’ll learn all about:

0:00 – Intro
2:25 – Setting the stage for scientific thinking
10:50 – Why critical thinking beats blind belief
15:07 – The meaning of epistemology
25:01 – How empiricism changed modern science
34:52 – What black swans teach us about truth
48:27 – Cynicism vs. healthy skepticism
59:50 – Making sense of the hierarchy of evidence
1:12:56 – Turning data into practical results
1:28:50 – Where to find credible fitness research

Episode resources:

• Official Podcast/Website: mindpumpmedia.com 

• Free resources site: mindpumpfree.com

• “Ask” portal: askmindpump.com 

• Instagram: @mindpumpadam 

• Youtube: @MindPumpTV 

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Have you followed the podcast?

Get notified of new episodes. Listen on Apple, Spotify, or all other platforms.

Then hit “Follow” and you’re good to go!

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• Transcript

  Philip Pape: 0:01

  Have you ever felt like the more fitness content you consume, the less confident you are about what you actually should do? If you're tracking everything, following the right people, but you still can't quite track the code on your own body. If you wonder whether all these apps and AI tools are helping or adding more noise, this episode is for you. Today, I'm talking with Adam Schaefer, co-founder of Mind Pump, and we're gonna discuss a raw fitness truth. Having access to unlimited information like this podcast doesn't automatically lead to results. In fact, it often makes things harder. Adam's going to walk us through how he filters signals from the noise, where technology generally serves lifters, versus where it falls short, and the core principles that he's never wavered on despite building a massive fitness media empire. You'll learn how to build your own decision-making framework, how to experiment intelligently without falling into dogma, and what the future of fitness might look like. Welcome to Wit and Weight, the show that helps you build a strong, healthy physique using evidence, engineering, and efficiency. I'm your host, Philip Pape, and today we're talking about how to make sense of all the fitness information out there in an age where more content doesn't necessarily mean better results. My guest is the Adam Schaefer, co-founder and co-host of Mind Pump, which has become one of the world's leading fitness podcasts, scaling it into a platform that reaches millions of lifters every month. It's definitely in my feed, probably in yours. If not, go and hit follow right now. Adam has a pro card in men's physique bodybuilding and has managed some of the largest health clubs in the Bay Area. And if you listen to Mind Pump like I do, you'll know he's big on building sustainable habits while staying open to experimentation. He's someone who can tell you exactly what has not changed in effective training over the past decade or two while also sharing what he's currently experimenting with himself. Right now, I see that we're at this inflection point where AI, algorithms, influencer culture, social media are heavily reshaping how people make their fitness decisions. So I think Adam's a perfect guy to help us make sense of it all. And today, you're gonna learn how to develop your own framework to evaluate all this information, where technology can be helpful versus where human connection still matters the most, and some non-negotiables that Adam has maintained while building one of the most trusted voices in fitness. Adam, it is really awesome to have you here on Wits and Weights. I want to welcome you to the show.

  Adam Shafer: 2:34

  Appreciate that, man. Totally honored, love the intro, man. I'm excited.

  Philip Pape: 2:37

  Yeah, man. So uh before we started recording, I was talking, you and I were talking about uh Jamie Selzer, who was on the show, right? And he wanted to say, first of all, that hello, and you've been and you've been a huge supporter in his process, and you're one of the nicest guys he's met along the way. Um just want to put that out there. So shout out to you, Jamie. Now so cool. Now, Jamie is um, you know, he found both of us through podcasts. So he obviously listens to a lot of different shows, found people he trusted, applied the knowledge, built consistency, got the results. Everyone who's listening right now, the you, the listener listening, I know that's what you're trying to do. But I also know that you have access to more information now than any generation in history. And so why, Adam, this is a question for you. Why are people having so much trouble putting all that wonderful knowledge to use and doing it consistently?

  Adam Shafer: 3:28

  Yeah, it's an we're in an interesting time right now where uh, I mean, the the amount of information uh in our phone and access with AI is just it's unbelievable. I mean, and if I don't know how much you've gotten familiar with Chat GPT and just how amazing of a tool that is and how fast you can get really good answers. The problem with that is that there's so much information on the internet that how you prompt it really dictates what it spits out. And it's so it's funny you bring this up because I I was literally just talking with my brother-in-law maybe three, four days ago, and I was venting to the guys. I he I talked to my brother-in-law the night before I come into work, and uh I go, man, I said, really interesting thing happened to me last night with my brother-in-law. I said, he he sends me, he's going through a bunch of stuff right now in his life, and uh, you know, he he is Googling me or he's uh it texting me that he was Googling uh TRT that he had started about a year and a half ago or whatever. And uh he's listing all these things, he's like, and he's he's blaming TRT, you know. Oh, and I check and he sends me a screenshot of what ChatGPT had sent back to him. And I tell my buddies, I'm like, man, this is crazy. I said, This is my brother-in-law who's been in my family for 20 years, very aware of the business. In fact, his wife works for the company, so very, very familiar with what I do, the content that I have. Uh knows that I've had some of the most world-renowned doctors and hormone specialists on my shows, uh, been on TRT for 20 years myself, trained hundreds, maybe thousands of people on it. I have a whole entire forum with a doctor dedicated to hormones. So I you would think that he'd go directly to a source like that, right? With that kind of access and experience, and just go, hey, bro, and ask, ask me the question. But instead, he went to Chat GPT, and then what it spit out to him was uh kind of alarming to me. And I said, uh, I said, no, bro. I said, I I don't agree with that. I said, um, you know, if you prompt and what I think he did was he prompted it like this, where he said, What are all the negative worst things could happen with with taking TRT? And so it spit off a list because he because he prompted that way. And I said, Well, what if you were to have prompted it? What are all the negative effects of having low testosterone as a 45, 50-year-old, or 60-year-old man? And watch what it spits off to you. I said, It's gonna send you a bunch of alarming stuff too. And it, but it was a really interesting moment, it just happened to me. And I would tell them the guys, I'm like, we're entering this time where here I have somebody close to me who has access to someone like me who's got real-world experience for a very long time with some of the brightest minds in the world in that in that topic. And he went straight to Chat GPT for whatever reason. And because of the way he's prompting it, he got kind of a bit of a confirmation bias to what he was already kind of thinking because of the way he prompted it. And it just kind of hit me like, man, this is gonna be a problem, you know. Because I I would I would say that I was one of the people that really got excited about Chat GPT, like, man, this is awesome! What a brilliant tool. This is gonna be mostly all positive things. But now I start to see where, like, oh, this could be a problem. And I've heard some crazy stories of uh, I think just recently the news hit where the kid basically committed suicide, and it was because of the conver, and then they had the whole log of the conversation that he was having with AI, and it kind of confirmed his bias on that hey, his life is worth nothing, he shouldn't be in this world, don't bother telling crying out to anybody and basically handle it yourself. And uh, guy takes his kid takes his life, and so yeah, it's it's a bit uh alarming where we're going and that we're already adopting it that fast.

  Philip Pape: 7:32

  Yeah, totally agree, man. Like there was a South Park episode recently called Sycopancy about that exact topic where the husband was like not even wanting to talk to his wife and and was going to chat GPT to ask all the questions, and it would just keep telling him what he wanted to hear. And I've seen that too, like like you, I love to play around with these things. I was using a different AI the other day to kind of brainstorm business ideas, and someone said, Hey, train your AI to tell it to be honest with you and not do that. And I tried it out and I was like, Oh, it actually started giving me like this brutal feedback, and I can see why people don't want to hear that because it says, it said, uh, it said, Philip, you're still trying to do this, you know, you're you're being emotional about it, you're trying to do this. Here's what you want to do instead. I'm like, oh yeah, this is interesting. It's crazy.

  Adam Shafer: 8:16

  The way you prompt this thing is gonna be uh it's gonna be really, really important. And I'm I imagine that a lot of the conversations, a lot of the education uh for the kids and the generation coming up will probably be around that because uh this is the stuff that we're starting to see unfold. I just thought it was so wild because it was so closely connected to me and something like that. That like, man, I just I I don't know if I would do that still. Like, and now I had to ask myself, like, if I have direct access to somebody who I have a lot of respect for in a field, I still think I would go to that doctor or would go to that professional before I got on to Chat GPT because I think, and maybe that's because of my own experience of just I uh in the fitness world, I believe that there's a level of importance when it comes to book knowledge, science, and what we've learned from studies. And then there's a lot of value that comes from just pure application, real-world people, and the variables that come with that, because science has done incredible things for us to steer us in many great directions. And you know, you can look up a damn near study for anything to get some idea of what maybe you should or shouldn't do, but the human element changes that always. And I for every uh great science study that I've seen and great rule that I've been told, I've seen the opposite, I've seen it um not play out that way. And so because of that, I'm I'm always a little cautious of oh, just because the research says this is the best option, it doesn't mean it's uh gonna work a hundred percent of the time. In fact, we don't have hardly any studies at all that are like that where we could replicate it a a hundred times over and it always gives the same outcome. And so, because of that, you have to keep keep in mind that you know, this is this answer, this AI tool is giving you, isn't an end-all be-all. It could possibly help us in the right direction. But yeah, so I don't know, I I caution people uh because of that, and I think that's it. We're in this interesting time when there is there's just so much information that even a young kid could get the all the information that a PhD and 20 years experience of of training could get, at least all the all the books and the and the stuff that's put on the internet in regards to that at the in the access of their hand. But what you do with that, how you prompt that, it's gonna really matter. And so, yeah, it's I don't know, I think I we're gonna get dumber. I mean, it another another another example of this, we talk about this on the show. I'm I'm guilty of this. Um, when I was a kid, I was uh you know driving at 16, and uh with this was before pre-navigation. So I'm dating myself a bit here. Uh and I and that didn't exist. And I remember uh I lived in a lot of different towns and homes growing up, prided myself on the ability to be some go somewhere one time and I could go back again, no problem, no directions. I just had a kind of a photographic memory. I I had the tree to the left, the red house on the right, the blue door two blocks down. Yeah, I could get there, no problem. And then also memorized every friend's phone number that I had. I didn't have to write any of that down. I just knew them all, still remember friends' numbers from 12, 13 years old. Yet I don't know my wife's phone number. You know, and I don't uh I can't get from my house to work that I've driven for 10 years without putting my navigation. Like, so I have even things like that, I've outsourced those skills so much that I've lost them completely. Now, it's probably not the end of the world that I'm not the best navigation work because we all have navigation on our phone. It's pretty simple. It's not that big of a deal that I don't have all my friends and my wife's phone numbers memorized because we've all got those phone books built into our pockets now. So maybe not that big of a deal, but I think we got to be careful on how much of these skills that we outsource uh to this AI tool. And I think this thing is is so powerful. Like it's not just one thing, it's not just navigation that it's outsourcing, it's outsourcing critical thinking for so many things. So it's I don't think we've ever seen anything, any technology like this come into play. And so, yeah, I'd really caution a lot of people that are using it to navigate them through nutrition and exercise and and the end-all be all. I still think getting a hold of a of somebody who's been training people and in the fitness space for a really long time is gonna be a better option than the internet as a as a end-all be-all.

  Philip Pape: 12:41

  And you know what's cool about it is like when you think of podcasts like yours where you do the the qua, right? The listener questions, you're effectively doing that. You're answering very specific contextual questions. And if you guys listen to enough of that, you can start to learn to think about those for yourself. And then just reach out to these guys you you follow or and trust, like Adam, like me, like anybody. Just send them a note because that's gonna be probably a more accurate response. And they're not always gonna hopefully just try to sell you on a program, right? You don't have to follow those guys who are just immediately like, here's my product, here's my paywall. It's funny you mention like your was it your brother not coming to you or or yeah, it's my brother-in-law, right? And and I don't know if it's partly because people are I've seen a change in generations as well as since the pandemic of people not wanting to just like reach out to people. Maybe they're they're they're kind of nervous to do that for whatever reason, even if it's your own brother. But also, uh, I've talked to my own clients who've said, I looked up on ChatGPT, I said, What would Phillips say about this? And I bet they do that about you, Adam. There's like, what would mind pump say about this? And it's like, you can't even trust that because it'll spit out something. And I'm like, nah, 80% of that is wrong. Yeah. So it just cobbles together, you know, what it thinks. So, all right, then that that's a so that's good advice about the AI side of things. What about just in general? Like, you guys cover a lot of trends and info that's constantly coming up practically every day, because you publish your episodes every day. How do you even decide should I pay attention to this or talk about it or like what people care about and need to know about? You know what I mean? Like it's current event in fitness, so to speak.

  Adam Shafer: 14:16

  I mean, I think that uh the positive side for us as content creators is it provides endless content for us to talk about. I think rarely ever do we not cover it. Like I think that if there's something new, a new trend, a new modality, uh a new tool, a new exercise somebody's doing, uh, we tend to we tend to talk about it. I think it's it's it's good conversation for us to discuss it. But then at the end of the day, I think we always go back to the, I mean, things that we've known for a hundred years around training. And I mean, in fact, we did an episode the other day, I don't know, it was maybe last week or week, two weeks ago, where we were sitting down, we're like, if if someone said you could only do you know six to eight exercises, what would the you know, six to eight be? Could could we put together something that they could do this just those six to eight exercises for the rest of their life? And and could we build a good physique and bulletproof their joints? And we we wrote something down, and we and in there were all the basic movements. It was the overhead press, it was the squad, it was the deadlift, it was a row, there was a rotational movement, like a windmill in there, there was an and then like a full sit up. Like so, I mean, we basically went, okay, well, multi-planar exercise, some sort of rotational, right, some sort of ab exercise, and then the big, the big four lifts. And if you did those movements for the rest of your life, and only those movements, you could build an incredibly fit-looking and moving physique uh forever. And yet we have so many different exercises and so many different ways to organize them and debate over what's better for hypertrophy and what's better for this. And I just think that we've overcomplicated a lot of that. And I think what we try, and we don't just dismiss people, I think, that are asking that or talking about that. I think we what we really try to do is distill it down to what makes this new thing good, you know, or what is interesting about this new thing, but then reminding people that, you know, aside from the novelty of this exercise, it doesn't trump these movements that we've known about for a really long time. Get good at those movements, uh, and it will serve you far more than this new thing or new modality or new technique or new study that just came out and said, oh, this burns more body fat. So uh yeah, I think that that's that's what we've that that's the core of the show. It's been, you know, here's all these neat things that we're always learning about and we're watching, but there's some really fundamental things that we've known for a really long time that if you stick to those basics and you master those, you'll be far better off than you know, figuring out a million other. I mean, what's the it's the Bruce Lee quote, right? Master one one punch. I I fear the man who knows who's done one punch a million times than a man who knows a million different punches. It's just like it's the same thing. It's like nail those, nail those four or five things down, really get good at them because it takes time. Like, I mean, I've been squatting for 20 something years. I still don't consider myself a perfect or a great squatter. So it's like it's a movement and that you you have a very long window to get really good at. And what's great about that, that it's challenging, is that it provides a lot of novel stimulus to you and a lot of opportunity to get gains from it versus something that's very basic and simple, a machine or a new tool, a new tool that came out. That's okay, cool. This is a great novel stimulus, get some cool benefit from it, but then uh then what? Then then there the benefits start to diminish, and then again, you're back to the core movements that are really moving the needle. So, I mean, that's that's kind of how I look at it. That's how we talk about it, I feel like. I think, but it's interesting to discuss. I mean, I have been in the space for a long time, so I enjoy the conversation around these tools, these ideas, but at the end of the day, we know what it takes to build a really healthy, strong body.

  Philip Pape: 18:05

  Yeah, and I think that's that's like the dichotomy is all the all these cool things at the top, and then you end up steering the conversation slowly back to the principles. And I like the way how you put it. If you realize that there are a core set of bedrock principles in the choice space, isn't that big, you can focus in and develop depth in those, treat them like the skills they are and master them over time, which means you don't have to be uh hopping all over the place with different techniques and tools and uh the latest gadgets. And it's funny because like I know he's controversial, Lyle McDonald, but recently he posted somebody, somebody said, So how do I build muscle? And he's like, You train and you do a surplus, and that's all there's ever been to it, right? Like, you know, people are looking for the complicated answer. And I hear it too. Like, people are always when you do the Q ⁇ A's, you want to kind of fill up the podcast episode with some decent thoughts and content. And also keeping in mind people are new to this, to them, it is very confusing, right? Because there's so what do they trust? So yeah, I guess that's the next that's a good segue to like um, all right, let's say they're listening to Mind Pump, they're hearing you guys come talk about this. They're gonna hear the themes start to solidify over time. They will. You'll hear squatting mentioned, you'll hear compound lifts, you'll hear, you know, energy balance, right? The evidence. But somebody needs to take action on that. Like the people want, you know, the listener right now wants to do something about it. How do they like get unstuck? What's how did they start moving the needle and take that next step?

  Adam Shafer: 19:27

  I I love that question because I think this is the part. I mean, if there was anything controversial about mind pump or that we talk about, I would say it's it's our approach. And I it's not, it's not sexy, it's not even a lot. What we've learned over decades of training so many people is you really have to meet people where they're currently at if you're gonna be successful, you're gonna have success with them being consistent. Sure, I could sit down, take your measurements, do your body fat, track your steps, figure out, take a metabolic test to figure out where your calories are supposed to be, and write you up the perfect diet and exercise plan that will get you jacked. I mean, I could do that, I could do that with anybody, but that's not the real art of training somebody or getting somebody to be very successful and consistent. The real art is figuring out that individual where they're at in their life and building something that kind of complements their life that they can do for the rest of their life. And that is so unique because now other than just their physiology, now the psychological psychology is being played into this equation. And that part is a massive part because if I have all those breakdowns of your numbers of what you should do, but then you look at me and you go, Man, Adam, I just I hate going to the gym. It's awful. It's I every time I go, I dread it. I don't like being there. I feel insecure about the place. I feel like everyone's staring at me. I always go for a couple weeks and then I quit after a while, or it's just, I can't believe, you know, I can't commit to going five days, whatever. You're telling me all this information. And then what if what if my perfect plan for you includes some of these things that you're telling me? You just don't like to like and and an experienced trainer will hear that and go, like, okay, I've got to find another way to move this person in in the right direction. Or maybe you're telling me you're a really busy dad and you've got three businesses and you got four kids and you travel all over the place. And again, I've got all your physiology down, and I know the macros and the perfect program to get you jacked, and you're telling me you want to get jacked, but then you're also telling me you've got all these other priorities in your life, and you really don't care that much about getting the gym, and you also travel a lot. So being really consistent with your nutrition has been really difficult. So, you know, then I then I have to go, okay, well, maybe he's not ready for a meal plan this constrained and this strict. It sounds like he's never even gone two weeks of consistently hitting his protein targets. So, you know, I'm gonna figure out this individual, and then I'm I'm gonna listen to where they're at, what they've had troubles with, how they've been challenged in the past, what they really want. And then I'm gonna go, okay, what are a couple things, really simple things that I can add into this person's life that doesn't completely flip it upside down. Now, granted, if they follow the exact plan that I know is perfect for them, they would get to the set goal faster. But what we what I understand, because I've been doing this so long, is they're not gonna do it. They're not gonna follow. And so that, and to me, that's the real art of what we do is the ability to know the perfect plan for this person to get to their exact goal, but then recognize that that path is different for every individual, no matter how much their physiology matches the other person that said the same exact goal. It's oh, this individual, these are our obstacles. This is and and also their commitment level to that, and going like, okay, like I I sometimes will hear somebody who has been trying to get into fitness for so long and they've never been consistent. But every time they've attempted, they they get into these four to five weeks, five to day week type of programs to go, and it's like, hey, and and they'll tell me, all right, I'm I'm I'm motivated again, I'm I'm I'm ready, my calendar's clear, I'm gonna go do this, and they're like, I can do five days a week, and you'll hear me or you'll hear us on the show talk somebody out of that. No, why don't you why don't you start with one? Let's go one day, and they're no, no, no, I'm I'm ready, I'm ready to go now. It's like, well, no, you've done that a hundred times before, and it's it hasn't worked out. Maybe we try something a little bit, maybe we commit less to and so that comes off a bit controversial. In fact, I we've had you know uh people critique us and say, oh, they're the the podcast just for beginners, or you know, oh, they're the the low intensity guys, or oh, they're the guys that that hate on cardio and they don't want it's like no, is what what it is is that we've trained a lot of fucking people between the three of us for a really long time, and we understand human psychology, behavior psychology really well, and we also understand physiology, understand macros, nutrition really well, and how to marry those uh for most people. And it doesn't mean that we get it right a hundred percent of the time, but I'd say we're pretty good at it, and I can hear somebody tell me their goals, tell me about their history, and I can know what I think is the perfect path to get them there the fastest, but then also understand that that path is probably not gonna work for that person based off of the information they've told me. And so I've got to find a different way to get that outcome, and that looks different for every individual. And so I'd say that's probably the most like, and that's where these like arguments or debates that people have online where they're debating who's who's more right, or my study that just came out contradicts your study, and this is what the science says, and it's just like, well, that's great. I mean, I could I can have, for example, if if if the science said that waking up at 5 a.m. burned you 20% more body fat if you just exercise at 5 a.m., well, then would we all work out at 5 a.m.? We still wouldn't. Some of us hate to work out at that time. And so just because the studies say that that client could burn 20% more body fat, which I know that's not true, but it lets us say it was, doesn't mean that I would still would tell every client to work out at 5 a.m. Because after I get to know somebody and I hear somebody tell me something like, oh yeah, I stay up till one in the morning every morning. I I've I never get up before seven o'clock. But yeah, okay, if I can burn 20% more fat, I'll get up at five. I'm like, no, I'm not even gonna do that because I know you're not gonna follow that. And even if you do follow it for a short period of time, it's not gonna become a lifestyle for you. It's not gonna become something you do for the rest of your life. And that's my goal. My goal is to not only get you to whatever said fitness goal you have, but it's also to make this a part of your life for the rest of your life. And that can come off, I think, controversial sometimes because sometimes the decisions that we make with callers or when we help people flies in the face of the science sometimes. And boy, science guys just don't like that. That they just chomp at the bit to try and tear that apart or talk shit about that. But it's just like, but that always tells me when someone critiques what maybe we say about uh you know exercise or nutrition or cardio or walking or whatever the the commentary is, that they probably have a lot of book knowledge, but they haven't probably trained a lot of real people in real life. And fortunately for us, we've got both. We've got a lot of a lot of studies, a lot of science, a lot of national certifications. Uh, and then we've trained a lot of people for a very long time. And the combination of that has, you know, forced my hand to not always go in the direction of what the research tells me. Uh, sometimes, sometimes my heart, my mind, and what I'm hearing tells me something else. It says, hey, you know, I know what the science says I should do right here, but I'm listening to this person and I know what the behavioral psychology is around what this person is saying. Yeah, I'm gonna go this direction because I think that's the best. Learning to discern from that. And if you're a listener right now and you're interested in like finding good advice, like you're looking for somebody that has that. You're looking for somebody who has got not only the science, and so they can they can communicate the questions that you have around physiology and nutrition and exercise science, but then also tell you, but this is what I've seen work really well with a lot of my clients, or I've trained a lot of people just like you, and this works really well. Like, you want to hear a blend of both of those, I think, to get yourself a really good coach or a really good guide in your journey. And I think that's going to trump these AI bots and tools that we're gonna have. And I think that's I think that's I don't think uh because everybody has the answer and the knowledge in their hand, we're gonna have all of a sudden way fitter people. Because I don't think it's a I don't think it's a lack of knowledge that has kept all these people from getting in shape. I I think it has more to do with the behavioral psychology side, is that people have a lot of insecurities that are driving a lot of people are exercising because they hate their body. They're exercising working out because they don't like the way they look. And if you do it, if you work out in because you resent yourself, that'll never last. That'll even even if it's it's a motivator in a short period of time to maybe get you to lose a few pounds, or you can muscle your way through it for a season to get in shape, but you're not gonna make it a part of your life if you're doing it because you don't love yourself, because you resent the way you look or you're insecure. And until you fix those psychological things, those hurdles that you have, you're you're gonna keep, you're gonna be on the hamster wheel of gaining weight, losing weight, gaining weight, losing weight, or being in shape, falling out of shape, being in shape, falling out of shape. And uh I, you know, we just know that from training so many people that you you've got to find, you've got to get to the bottom of both.

  Philip Pape: 29:07

  Yeah, and if you're listening, like the wisdom Adam's sharing is gold because I've only been in the coaching space about five years, and it it only took a few months before I realized this is not about information at all, like you suggested. There's the classic quote, I know what to do, I'm just not doing it. And you realize, well, it's not the problem, isn't it you know, that it's uh the psychology. And that begs the question like, shouldn't psychology be the foundational science and not nutrition physiology, for example, because that's just nuts and bolts like gravity, you know?

  Adam Shafer: 29:36

  Like I tell you what, I whenever I meet a trainer, um, you know, of course, obviously we've met a lot of trainers that listen to the show so I doubt, and they have a psychology background. I always encourage them, go down, you're gonna be great. Because I think I I got into that later, not realizing what an important so it wasn't like uh somebody told me, Go learn psych read. Like I got into reading behavioral psychology, psychology. Books in my mid-20s, uh, out of a necessity of realizing, like, man, I'm starting to pick up that a lot of my job is I feel like a kind of a counselor, you know, like a lot of these conversations I'm having with people is a lot less to do with the X's and O's about nutrition and exercise, and a lot more about what's going on in their head. I'm like, I'm not really qualified for this. And so that's what really sent me down the path. And so when I meet somebody who's get just getting into training, or maybe they had a background in psychology, I always go, oh man, you'll probably make a great trainer because so much of our job is getting down to a lot of these behaviors that drive us, because you can know what foods are right for you to eat. But if you have past traumas and behaviors built around these poor decisions that you've been making forever, just because somebody tells you you can only eat these foods for the next six weeks, and maybe you could adhere to that for six weeks, doesn't mean you fixed the root cause of what drove you to those behaviors in the first place. And they're they'll rear their heads and you'll eventually go back. And this is what happens to people is they don't address the root cause of what got them out of shape. They think it's an X's and O's thing. They go hire somebody or they search Chat GBT, get the X's and O's. Maybe you have good discipline, and so you have the ability to like white knuckle your way through the next six months or whatever through discipline. But then eventually that fails because you never address the root cause. Uh, and so it's like we got to get to that and how you got here uh first and understand those behaviors so we can unpack them, we can work on them. And then along the way, we're gonna start adding some of these great tips that I know about nutrition and exercise along the way, and that's the path. And so I do think that uh psychology, behavioral science should be a big piece of the training that trainers, and it's just not. I mean, we it's uh none of none of us that get a certification get taught any of that stuff, but I think it's it's paramount to being a good a good trainer.

  Philip Pape: 32:05

  Yeah, man, it's true. I I think there are probably four or five fields that get neglected in this space. Like one of them is behavioral economics, which is a good understanding of why people make decisions, you know, and how you incentivize people. And another is positive psychology, which is a field that I got exposed to through through someone else a couple of years back, but it's the idea of having uh separating positive and negative as two different spaces. Like a lot of people think negative is the opposite of positive, but really you can add in positive to your life and it tends to spiral up and crowd out negative. And I hear you guys talking about a lot of that yourselves, of this kind of what let me focus on the approach and the process and adding in, like you said, the two simple things I need, and that's gonna nudge you in the right direction for you in the most low friction way, least resistance because it's built to you for your life. And it's funny that that's controversial still, Adam. I mean, those people can pat and sand, honestly, because if anything you've done, like listen, think about yourself, listener, like um anything you've gotten good at, you didn't go hog wild and like 100% put on the pedal on day one on that. Like learn a musical instrument. Oh man, you gotta learn that note of C. You gotta learn how to like get your weed right, read what. You know what I mean? It's like these little things that move it forward. So if you were to say to someone listening, hey, we, Adam, with my experience and mind pump and everything else, most people have these five things that are like usually the big roadblocks for most people's lifestyle. And I know I'm asking you to generalize a little bit and you just said it's not general, but still, there are certain things a lot of people do struggle with. What's that like short list that the listener can kind of think about intentionally and then take that step?

  Adam Shafer: 33:44

  Well, I'll I'll address one that I think that you you kind of just pointed at right now that I think is a really important topic. The thing that's interesting about um exercise science is it is so unlike anything else that we do in life. Meaning, if I read more books and and and work harder at that, um I'm gonna get more information, I'm gonna be smarter. If I work harder at my job, I'm probably gonna get better at my job and make more money. If I study for that thing, I'm gonna have a better, like real hard, stay up late all night, three nights, like I'm gonna get, I'm gonna learn. It serves us a lot of times to overapply intensity towards a goal. Almost everything else you will get better at if you do it harder and more. Uh working out is not that way. Uh, there's a there is an optimal amount of intensity and application towards exercise and nutrition that will garner the most results. And then there's things that you can do that will give you the opposite of your results. And so understanding that sweet spot is probably where a lot of people miss and they tend to swing from one extreme to the other, meaning I'm in a place in my life right now where I'm just I'm too busy, I'm stressed, I'm not going to the gym, I'm not looking at my food, I don't give a shit right now, and I'm just I'm eating when I eat, I'm taking whatever, I'm not taking care of myself. And then it piles up. And then one morning we go, oh my God, or somebody says something to us, or we show up to the doctor, and the doctor says, You've got high blood pressure now, or your cholesterol's through the roof, or whatever, and then it scares us into or light or wakes us up in that moment, goes, Oh my God, I need to do something about it. And so then you go from doing nothing to oh my god, I gotta change this. And so you're like, Well, the harder I go, the more I do, the faster I'm gonna get to to said goal. It's not true with fitness. You can absolutely overapply the intensity and do too much that will result in less results or no results. And why that's difficult is initially it doesn't look like that. So this is a really common pattern that I just described the average person enter and insert whatever reason got you to start the gym, but that's kind of what happens is we're so busy, we're not working out, we're not tracking food, we're not doing any of that stuff. Then all of a sudden something happens, wakes us up, and we go, or a birthday or a wedding, or whatever, and we go, now we're gonna go do this. And then you go from here to all the way over here instantly overnight. And what here to over here means, not only does it mean going, you weren't going to the gym at all to now you're going four, five, six days a week, it also means you're also adding in probably cardio in some of those days or on off days. And then in addition to that, you went from eating all this crappy food to now I'm doing chicken and salad, you know, and that's what I'm that's what I'm eating, or I'm doing now, or I'm doing fasting and I'm intermittent fasting all the way till six o'clock at night, and I'm only eating in this little four-hour window or whatever. And so you went, and what what happens when you do that is you send a signal to the body that you're training all these weights and you're doing stuff that the body goes, Oh wow, we're lifting weights now. We need to adapt, we need to build. But then it goes over to the nutrition side and goes, Oh, but he or she's starving me compared to what I was eating just two weeks ago, and there's not enough material to do anything with all this signal that I'm getting. So I'm getting this loud signal because my body's getting hammered in the gym every day, but then my nutrition doesn't align with the way I'm training. And so, yeah, I burn a bunch of calories because I'm moving, which ends up sending the wrong signal to somebody who probably wants to lose body fat or lose weight, because that's what most people motivate the majority of people to get back in the gym. So, what happens is that person in the first two weeks sees the scale go down. Why? Well, because you reduced your calories by a thousand to two thousand calories a day because you went from not tracking, eating like shit, to all of a sudden salads or a small eating window. And so your calories got cut in half. You were doing no physical activity, now you're doing activity every single day, whether that's running or all the gym or your favorite, you know, orange theory type of class. So, yeah, you did this with the calorie balance game. And so, what does that result in? Well, you probably pulled out a bunch of water weight and you definitely burned some calories, and so the scale does this, and so you get this false signal of doing the right thing in the first two weeks. You go, Oh, hell yeah, I'm down 10, 15 pounds already in the first two weeks. Let's keep it rolling, and then the next week you see about five pounds more, and you're like, all right, all right, man, I gotta get a little bit harder, you know. And so then you get to like week three or four, and you're starting to hit this hard plateau. And you're like, whoa, I'm not, I'm not even halfway to my goal yet of where I'm trying to be, but I'm training five days a week. I'm eating four in four-hour windows, I'm only eating this many calories, I'm kicking my ass in the gym. Where do I go from here? And that plays out unique and different for every individual, but it kind of looks a lot like that in a lot of different ways, as far as insert the different types of cardio, insert different types of training modalities, insert different diets restrictions that they went to, but similar approach and similar type of results. And the that lever that they pulled, the eating less and just moving more, you can only pull that so many times. And so maybe somebody got longer than the three or four weeks I said, maybe they got to seven or eight weeks because they were they started at three days a week and then they went to four and then they went to five, or maybe they didn't start with running yet, and then now they've added running every single day. But that's what it looks like. And so it either happens at week three or it happens at week 13, but it's gonna happen somewhere in those first few months where pulling just that lever doesn't result in any more weight loss, and the body adapts. The body goes, Oh, okay, she's gonna beat me up like this every day, make me run, and only give me salads and chicken. I'm gonna learn to survive. Our bodies are incredible and resilient, and it goes, I'm gonna learn to survive off of all that she's giving me and how much I'm training, and then it adapts, and then it no longer sees any more results. And this is the point where people end up going, well, fuck this. I'm training seven days a week, I'm running, I'm barely eating everything, and I'm only 15 or 20 pounds lighter than what I was when I was eating everything I wanted, wasn't going to the gym at all. And it's very logical reason to quit. I would quit. I'd go, uh, all this work for a little bit lighter. I mean, nobody's even really saying anything to me yet. I can barely tell that I look different or feel different. And no, I'll go back to Fat Me. Fat me was happier eating Doritos and sitting on the couch, and I wasn't doing all this extra activity, and it's like, and I'm it was a trade for 15 pounds. That's not worth it. And that's where they throw their hands up, and or they throw even more crazy stuff, which what we see when people throw more crazy stuff and more restriction and more movement is eventually a hormonal dysfunction and then the the really doing a lot of metabolic damage that we have to unpack later on. That's a really common pattern for a lot of people is to go from one extreme to the other and then get a little bit of false hope because initially that does move the scale down. But if they actually were, if if we had uh an ability to do a real-time body fat analysis on that person of what happened and those 10 to 15 pounds, what you would see is the 10 to 15 pounds they lost, half of it was muscle and half of it was fat. So from a body fat percentage, that person didn't get any healthier and in fact might have gone the opposite direction, even though the scale showed them that they dropped 50-15 pounds. And so this is what happens to these people is they don't even realize that the the what they thought was good results were not good results at all. In fact, they were already early signs that you're losing muscle along with this with this body fat, and you're not getting any healthier, all you're doing is slowing the metabolism down and getting your body to adapt. That happens to so many people when they first get inside the gym. And so understanding that probably an a second huge mistake that I see that I think I we speak to so much is I don't think I trained a client. I mean, maybe maybe under five percent, definitely under five percent of all the people I've ever trained, when I first do a diet assessment. And the way it looks like for me is what it used to look like when I was a young trainer was I would do what I told you before, where I figure out your your physiology, your steps, your movement, your age, all the calculations have a calculation of this is your macros, and then I'd write a diet out for you to follow. It was a terrible idea. What it looks like today, or what I've been helping people for decades now, looks like is like I would tell you, I'd say, All right, Philip, here's the deal. I want you to just track what you eat for the next week to two weeks, 10 days typically is what I do. Um don't try and impress me. What I want to do is I want to learn about you. I want to learn about your eating patterns. So if you eat a Snickers bar at lunch every day and it's pretty consistent for you, I want you to actually do that. I want you to eat how you eat so I can see your eating patterns, and then I can then I from there I can make minor adjustments and they're and get us moving in the right direction. What has happened when I've learned to go about this approach is I see I one of the things I see always is the under-eating of protein, especially for somebody who's going to be strength training. So maybe they're not under-eating essential protein, and so I so people need to understand this. There's a big difference between your RDA, your recommended daily allowance, right? So you what you just which your body just needs to survive protein, versus I want to build as much muscle as I possibly can on my body, optimal protein, huge difference. So a lot of people get close to their essential protein, what they just need to survive and be okay. But the goal when we introduce strength training is to build muscle. That's what it's the most protective thing that we can do for not only your joints, your heart, your metabolism. So building muscle is paramount to your long-term success. Well, if we lift weights, that's only part of the equation. That's the the the part that sends the signal to the body to then go build this muscle. It feels the working out is just a stress. So it feels us lifting weights, and it goes, okay, uh, he's gonna, Adam's gonna make me do this thing every day. This is this is tough on my muscles. I need more muscle to do that. So there's the signal telling my body to build it. But then if I don't give it the nutrients, I don't give it the protein, the additional calories, not under calories, the additional calories and what I need to just maintain, it's not gonna build any muscle. So all I'm doing is burning. So the movements that I'm doing become almost irrelevant and don't really get the benefits of what they should because we're not giving it the material to build the muscle, to then protect the bones, to then speed the metabolism up, to then make fat loss much easier down the road. And so I'd say those are two of the biggest rocks or things that somebody can focus on when they're getting started that I think we do wrong is we go throw the whole kitchen sink at it, we undereat what the body needs to build muscle, and then we don't hit enough protein intake. That the two of those tend to be the kind of the first two things that I look at with anybody any goal. So I don't care if you're a skinny kid trying to build muscle, the borderline osteoporosis, 80-year-old woman, or the uh obese 400-pound guy who's trying to lose 100 pounds. Uh, what I do is I focus on building muscle, doing it slowly, hitting your protein tank. And I'm sure with you interviewed uh Jamie, this is one of the this is why it works so well from here. You have this huge overweight guy who's listening to our podcast and he's hearing this information, going like, okay, this is counterintuitive of what I've heard, but I'm gonna I'm gonna do it. I mean, and and look and look at how much weight this dude lost without ever doing any cardio. Yeah, and so that that would probably be the third thing that people do is they the the the amount of cardio people do it with the it the intentions of burning fat. When we preach that cardio is a terrible tool for fat loss, but it's been taught to us and told to us by even the medical field and doctors saying, Oh, get on the treadmill or go run because you're obese, it's like it is a terrible strategy for long-term fat loss, short term in the in a quick window, and somebody might go, Well, that's fine. I just want to do it short, and then I'll keep it off. It's like, no, that's the problem, is if you lose fat through cardio in the short term, what that does to you metabolically makes it very difficult to keep it off because on your way of reducing the calories and increasing all the cardio to burn that, say, 10 pounds of fat, you also reduced your metabolic rate by 500 calories a day. So you can now eat 500 less than even when you started this journey, which that's even worse, and that's even harder to stay in shape. You just made it harder for yourself. So, yeah, understanding that um and and and approaching the the gym a little bit different is probably the main things I'd focus on for most people, no matter what the goal.

  Philip Pape: 47:15

  Yeah, and I like how you brought it back to, I mean, it all comes back to the principle of hey, this is a systematic, you know, methodical, patient process. If you want, if you want quick weight loss or quick fat loss, you can get it, but you're gonna sacrifice a lot and you're gonna you're gonna gain the weight back and you're not gonna have learned the skills that you need long term. So you've got to make that uh, I would argue, really great trade-off of spend the next few months doing the two things you talked about, which is first of all, tracking, or not first of all, the second thing you mentioned was just tracking to get your baseline. People, a lot of people don't want to do that, right? They just want to jump in and take action. Uh, but if you're doing, if you're changing 10 variables at once, you have no idea what's causing what, and then you reinforce this negative uh feedback loop of, like you said, I lost 15 pounds. So of course what I did equals the result, and it's not the case. So I mean, you're preaching the choir, obviously, here, and hopefully people who listen to this show understand that, like, you know, I don't, I I want you to take a good three months, six months, sometimes two years. It's gonna be the process to like slowly build that muscle and change your body composition. The cool thing is though, and and Adam, you can chime in on this, you can get wins along the way. You can get this sense of internal motivation from what you're doing along the way, right? Oh, yeah. Yeah. So I think people want a win, and they may not even know the right win, but what is it, what are those things people then get when they do this to know that it's working right?

  Adam Shafer: 48:37

  Yeah. So so let's talk about what they get, and then let's also talk about why that's difficult psychologically. So, what you get when you feed the body properly, you hit protein intake, you strength train properly, you apply the right amount of intensity two, three times a week, full body, moderate intensity, and you hit protein, is you get you build muscle and you get strong. And this is really exciting. Now, what happens and why what what why people struggle with this psychologically is because they don't see huge movement on the scale and or maybe even the mirror, because it takes a while. When you stare at yourself in the mirror multiple times a day, it's really difficult for you to see the movement, like somebody who hasn't seen you in two or three weeks, who probably comments, like, Oh man, Philip, you look really good. You've been lifting weights, and you're like, Really? You notice I feel like I haven't seen any change because that's how we are. We're our worst critics, and we're looking at ourselves every day. So it's hard for us to see that incremental change that's happening. So you don't see a lot of change in the mirror, you don't see a lot of movement on the scale, even though you're doing really well. And so, one of the things you can see, and why we tend to let tell people to focus on strength as such an incredible metric, is that if you're getting stronger in the gym, it is very, very likely you are building muscle. And if you are building muscle, we know we're moving in the right direction metabolically for this long-term health journey that we that we've we've put you on. And so what you can see and feel, if and again, this is other things to focus on because we focus so much on the mirror on the scale is you know, energy goes up, libido goes up, better sleep. You notice your skin is better, your hair feels better, your stool looks better, your mood gets better. Like there's a lot of these other metrics that are being impacted from this feeding your body properly, strength training properly, just a few days a week, will start to garner right away. But we ignore it because we've been taught to care just about the mirror and the scale. That we go two weeks go by and the scale stays the same, and you don't really see a difference in the mirror, and you go, I'm not seeing any results, or this trainer's terrible, fire him. When in reality, you've built some muscle, you've lost a little bit of body fat. So you say just say hypothetically in those two weeks, you built one pound of muscle and you lost one pound of fat, which means you've actually made a big dent right there. You've actually added a pound of muscle on your body, you actually burned a pound, but then the scale says zero change. So you go, Oh, I haven't really changed. Like, no, absolutely, you built a pound of muscle and you lost a pound of fat. That's incredible, it's a perfect place to be. And all those other markers I'm talking about has probably improved. You just weren't looking at them because all you cared about was the scale in the mirror, and because that's not moving fast enough for you, you actually think you're not seeing as good of results as you're actually really seeing. And so when I get a client, especially, and here it just goes back to how this whole conversation started with its psychology and listening to the things they're saying. If I have if I I can hear from a client how much they are married to the scale, and many times, even with a weight loss client, I will not allow them to use a scale. And a lot of times that's difficult for them because that's their met way of measuring what they think is success. And I have to train them and teach them that. No, it's not. And in fact, it's been sending you the wrong message for a really long time. This is why I'm not gonna let you use it. You cannot get on it. You got to throw it away. We got to get rid of it, and you got to trust me as your guide to take you through this journey. And that's really difficult for some people to do, but they have to do it, they have to move away from that because they're interpreting the information incorrectly. And I've got to get them to look at the other information that their body is already telling them. And then when I can help them make that connection, and what that used to look like when I was a personal trainer is you know, you see your client two, three times a week, you wouldn't see them a couple days between, and then they see you and you see them and you say, Hey, Susan, how'd you sleep last night? You know, how was your productivity at work? How's the libido doing? You notice a difference in your stool? Notice any difference with your hair or your skin? Like, so I have to be, I'd have to be prompting and asking these questions all the time to get them thinking about a lot of times when you first do that, they're like, I don't, I don't know. I don't know. Well, well, pay attention to that. I want you, okay, now between today and when I see you on Monday, really pay attention to those things they're talking about and see if you notice a difference. And then they're starting then they start looking, right? And then they go, Hey, you know what? Actually, now that I think about it, I haven't I haven't had a bad bathroom experience in the last two weeks. I'm like, yeah, that's your your body is thanking you. It's your digestive system is working better and your stool is better because of your eating properly, your exercise properly. You know what's crazy too? I've had some really good nights of sleep, and I noticed my energy through the day. I used to crash at two or three in the afternoon, and I've been able to have sustained energy throughout the entire day. And yeah, you know what? My sex drive is up. Oh, my husband and I are, you know, you start hearing and you're you're letting them know like this is all these signs are signs that your body is telling you you are moving in the right direction, the right way, the fastest way, the best way. Um, and so if we can get people to focus more on those those other metrics, uh, it would serve them in their long-term pursuit. Even if your goal is crazy goals, like you want to get shredded and get on a stage and be a bikini athlete or a bodybuilder, or you want to have six percent, like I don't have the most extreme goal, you still approach it in that manner of learning to listen to your body, guide you through this, these decisions of making healthier choices for your body versus only the mirror and the scale, because that will steer you in the wrong direction. Because many times when I'm doing the perfect diet, the perfect training routine, the scale doesn't give me the feedback that maybe I want. A lot of times, sometimes it even goes the opposite direction a little bit because I'm holding a little bit of water. You know, that day I'm a little inflamed. Maybe I ate something that was uh didn't agree with my gut, and so my body retains water. Maybe I over-reached my training a little bit, so I caused a little inflammation in the body, which then retains some water and held on to it, which then made me look a little puffy and bloated and added one pound more on the scale. And I go, Oh my god, I'm getting fat. No, I'm not. I'm holding a little bit of water. I over-trained a little bit or didn't sleep so well last night, or I ate that thing that even though the calories were okay, it didn't agree with my gut, and my body, my body got inflamed for that. And that makes me look different in the mirror. That makes my scale go up a tiny bit because I'm inflamed. And now I, even though I'm I'm on a perfect routine, I'm reading those signs thinking I'm doing the wrong thing, and then I overcorrect. And I go, Oh shit, I gotta, I gotta cut some. I I got I got fatter. The pound went up on the scale. I need to cut my calories more, or I need to add cardio now and burn more. And you and then you start to over and people do this all the time when they're actually doing really well and they don't interpret the signs correctly, and then they overcorrect, which is also why I think people like you and I have a job. I mean, I think that the a lot of what we're talking about is easy, I think, to understand. It's hard to apply and read in real time. And I think it takes somebody with experience and professional people to kind of help somebody learn that about this. But then once you like it, like education, once you learn it and you figure it out and you understand this, it's so invaluable because you'll have this for the rest of your life. You'll go, oh, this this life, you'll go, I get I get it now. I know what I need to do. Uh, and that is very empowering and life-changing for most people.

  Philip Pape: 56:19

  Yeah, that's super empowering. I mean, you're creating a system that you've never had before. And the confidence that comes from that, I know from personal experience, because I'm 44, didn't figure it out until I was like 40. And once you do, you're like, whoa, this is life changing. It's, I mean, it's like having a financial planner or having, you know, a professor or whatever kind of teach you the ropes and the system. And I I got two really good takeaways here I want to reinforce for the listener. The first, the idea of paying attention cannot be understated because what I hear you saying, it's not just this casual listen to your body. It is more of an objective, like specific things you should be paying attention to, potentially documenting, tracking, whatever that makes sense for you, where it becomes objective, even your biofeedback, your stool, you know, I have my stool's gotten firmer over the next the week, you know, whatever. And then combining that with like a hierarchy of the things, you know, the metrics, a dashboard, I think of it, where you have the PRs and the strength at the top. Maybe then you have biofeedback, maybe your blood labs are in there if you care about health or whatever. And then maybe body comps at the bottom, because it's kind of measuring the lagging output of all this stuff. But then you also mention physique competitors, which is interesting because there's a lot of misunderstanding there. If you go through all this, you do it well, you're eating right, you're feeling great, and then you get shredded, which is gonna take a fat loss phase to do that. Yeah. I know you've said that some of the most insecure people you've met are, you know, physique competitors and coaches and whatever. And so let's reconcile that thought for people that it's not like, okay, you got shredded, so you've won the game and life is over, right? You could just die the next day and you're happy.

  Adam Shafer: 57:55

  So I was lucky to get introduced to the um it's funny too. I'm sitting in it. This is my wife's office. So for the people that are thinking that I'm not narcissistic, that I have a picture of myself. And this is not my office. I'm in my wife's office this morning, but I'm looking back at a picture of when I was when I was competing. And uh I was lucky I was introduced to that at 30 years old. So I'd already been a personal trainer for over a decade and had a lot of experience, had worked on my own insecurities around fitness and had a really good grasp of nutrition, exercise science. Uh, and so I went into it. Uh, and the whole purpose of why I got into it was it to actually build uh mind pump, was to build, I didn't know what mind pump would look like at that time, but I knew I was trying to build an online e-commerce fitness business. Didn't know Sal and those guys at that time, but I I knew I was moving in that direction. I had already started my YouTube channel and I had started Instagram and I was moving in that direction. And I thought, okay, maybe in my little town, I'm a very popular trainer, but to the world, I'm nobody. So how can I get known? Um, well, uh, I've never competed, um, but I I think I have the knowledge and the discipline to do it. Um, what if I document the journey of getting shredded for people and show them how to do it? And I don't hire a coach, I don't hire a trainer, I do it all myself, so I get the credit for it, right? So people are like, oh wow, this guy knows what he's doing, right? And so that was the whole purpose of it for me was to do that. And uh, and of course, I I and I was one so when I would I got on Instagram back in 2014, so early days when when if you had 10,000 followers, you were kind of a big deal. And so when I got on there, what I saw, at least from my perspective right away, was oh, the the handful of people that were really famous in this space were just these good looking people that were super ripped, that had all these professional photos taken of themselves, or they were taking, they had, I mean, they had the professional lighting, they would take get a pump, then they were in a good studio. And I'm like, this doesn't really look like real life to me. Like, I know what it's like to try and get in shape, get people in shape. And this is doctored, this is you know produced to look way better than what it is. I don't, I don't look like that first thing in the morning. And and so my plan was I'm gonna be very authentic, transparent. I'm gonna wake up first thing in the morning in my terrible lighting in my bathroom mirror and take a picture of myself, not flexing, not pumped, just this is what I look like, and then tell you what I'm doing to get in shape. And that actually got a lot of a lot of traction and a lot of attention. It grew me to over 10,000 followers back when 10,000 followers was a lot of people. And I got a lot of attention for that. And that was the the reason for doing the training. It was like, oh wow, if I just did this first transformation of getting down to 7% body fat, if I take this all the way to the competing level, maybe I'll get more attention from more people. This will help build the business. I also was a bit excited because at this point I've actually never I didn't follow bodybuilding, I didn't know much about it. I knew there was a men's physique category, which I thought my body type fit. I'm six foot three, long wingspan, small waist, very skinny kind of build. I thought, okay, I could do that. I'm not gonna, I couldn't do bodybuilding. Uh I didn't want to take the amount of steroids I would need to take to even come close to competing with that. And so I was like, men's physique, I could, I could probably do. Uh and uh I thought, well, this will also be cool because I'll get to meet probably some of the brightest, smartest people in the world because these are the best physiques in the world. And so I was really intrigued. And I remember getting backstage, my first show, I was completely shredded. I got down to like 3% body fat. Um, in fact, I was too shredded. That was the feedback I got um from the judges. Was like, oh my God, you were like bodybuilder shredded. Uh, that's not what we're back early on days. If you look at the journey of men's physique, it used to have a little bit of a uh board short model look more than it had like a heart. I that I was a part of that evolution of it getting really hard. And so I came in really hard, and they were like, Yeah, no, that's that's too much. Um, and then I got backstage with all these amateurs and I'm talking to them. Now I'm a trainer for over a decade, and I'm meeting these incredible bodies, and I'm talking to them, and I'm listening to their training protocol, and I'm listening to their diet, and I'm going, like, that is not, that's not an ideal. And I started helping a lot of them, like, you know, maybe do this. And I, because I looked so good so quick, I got a lot of respect from my peers who didn't know who I was, and and they're and I'm and I'm explaining kind of the science of like, yeah, this is probably a better approach to do diet this way, or probably you know, scale your exercising this way. And when you're in that much of a calorie deficit, you should probably modify the intensity here. So I'm kind of like teaching them in the background, and I'm and I'm like, wow, I got these amateurs really, even though their bodies look great, they really don't know what they're doing. They just have some crazy discipline to eat hardly anything and train like a monster for a year straight, you know. And so I thought, well, maybe when I get to the national level, you know, that's where the like the where the smart guys are at, you know. I made my way, I won my first show, make my way to the USA's, get backstage there, same thing. I'm like, okay, well, this has got to be the difference between professional league and just the people that don't don't make it there. And I'm so, and I win, I win USA's, I go pro, and I get at the professional, and I find the same thing. And what I find is that these are some of the most disciplined people I've ever met in my life. So disciplined that they have gotten in shape in spite of what the science says, and in spite of a healthy relationship with exercise and nutrition. These are not the brightest, smartest, balanced, healthy people. In fact, most of them had crippling insecurities. Most, most of these people I was backstage with that were 3% body fat and looked better than 99.9% of the world were insecure about the way they looked and thought they were fat or their arms were too small or their chest, like they were massively insecure about the way they looked. And this is what drove them to train so hard and restrict so hard and to be so consistent for so long is because they had these crippling insecurities about how they looked. And I went, Whoa, this is crazy. It was super enlightening to me. Um that and I'm talking all of them. This isn't like me, and I'm I I I may sound like I'm overgeneralizing, and I'm sure somebody listening who competes that would would argue with me that they have a healthy. Okay, I'll give you five percent that I I were was unaware of or I didn't get a chance to meet, might have had a healthy. I I'm sure I wasn't the only guy who was mature and and and got into it and passed after he'd worked through his insecurity. So I'm sure there's a percentage that are so I'm I'm overgeneralizing a bit, but I everybody I met and talked to, massively insecure. And I found that in the podcasting spaces, I got to meet a lot of famous people online, that some of the people that we all look up to and aspire to be like and revere is like, oh my God, the most healthiest people are some of the most unhealthy people, not from a body fat percentage, but from an internal, yeah, mentally and psychological. They were crippled and by these these either traumas they had early or insecurities around body, they had body dysmorphia just from a different, a different level. A lot of times we think body dysmorphia, it's these people that do weird things to their body or allow themselves to get super obese, but there's you know the opposite. You know, you have these people that uh think they're fat when they're not, and they have to they they they're orthorexics, and that's what bodybuilding was full of. And you hear more people like friends of mine like Ben Pikolski and uh Phil Heath, they're coming out now talking about it, and it's it's become you know in vogue to come forward, be authentic, share your insecurities now. But that wasn't a popular thing when I was going through it. Nobody was authentic like that, nobody was being honest with how insecure they were about their bodies because they were being told how amazing they were, and they were getting all this publicity and all this fame and attention for how amazing they were. So it was just feeding that ego and feeding that insecurity.

  Jorge: 1:06:22

  Hello everyone. Um, my name is Jorge, and I just kind of want to share a little bit about my experience uh with Wits and Weights. So I've been blown away from day one, honestly. The best thing about uh Wits and Weights University is that Coach Phillip has everything that we need all in one place. It's easy to follow, it's easy to understand, it didn't give you like an introduction course at the beginning so you can know exactly what to do. It kind of made me very conscious of my nutrition and it's kind of set me in the right path in the right direction. So honestly, I cannot recommend it enough. One of the best things is that whenever you have any type of question, it's answered within 15-30 minutes. You feel welcome, you feel good, and like somebody's helping you. Everything you need is there, all you have to do is basically come and join us. See you there.

  Adam Shafer: 1:07:11

  And so it's a very dangerous thing that we use that as the main metric of what we think is success and what are the best, the smartest, or the brightest people in the space is well, you know, and and you you could you take me for an example. Like I don't carry myself ripped year-round at all. I have a very average body fat percentage, somewhere that hovers between 11 and 15 percent, 90% of the year. Every once in a while, probably once a year, I get a kick where I'm like, oh, I'm gonna get lean and I drop down to single digits for a short period of time. But for the most part, I look like a pretty average-looking guy who works out. Now, I don't look uh so average that you wouldn't look at me and you think I work, I've been working out for two and a half decades, so I've definitely got some muscle on me. But I'm I don't look impressive to my peers on Instagram. I mean, there's a lot of fitness people that look shredded year round. And I'll tell you right now, they look if you carry yourself shredded and buff and perfect body year round, you've got something going on. You have dysfunction. Yeah, you've got this, you have dysfunction going on. And if you as a consumer are following that person for it advice, buyer beware. That person that you think is so healthy or you admire so much because the way they look, I'm telling you right now, from experience of hanging out with all of them, because I've been around all of them, is they are as unhealthy as you are. The difference is your body fat unhealthy. You've you're you're at 20, 30 percent body fat and you need to lean out a little bit. They're psychologically trauma and security broken inside. And that is they've used that to discipline them to keep their body fat a certain way for some personal. And we live in a world now where these people are idolized because of a platform like Instagram or YouTube, and it's unfortunate because you have a lot of people that these people are leading, and sure, they understand macros and exercise uh decent, but they're leading them down a path that is probably not gonna serve them. And this is super common in our space in bodybuilding, in women's bikini, men's physique, bodybuilding, and these Instagram people that we follow that are ripped year-round.

  Philip Pape: 1:09:27

  And that's why I wanted to bring it up with you because that is what a lot of people's content is coming from, you know. And it's funny because I'm not shredded, ripped, or anything. I started in my 40s. I feel like I have good things to say and I want to help people. And I don't know if it's a benefit or not that I'm not at that level because I don't claim to be and like I have to lean on the way I've improved personally and help people improve as opposed to that. But like there is a lot of messaging around uh the best fitness coaches are the ones that look the best, you know, that kind of fit of messaging we hear. And also your mess, your message here that a poor relationship with your body that gets fed, that feeds this uh obsession to get shredded just gets worse and worse once you get there. And so having said that, when someone, if someone's listening, kind of thinking that way, I'm no, we're not gonna solve everyone's like deep mental struggles on this podcast, but how do we either reframe or redirect those motivations? Like what is what is the exercise or is the or the tip to redirect that?

  Adam Shafer: 1:10:26

  Sal, Sal said something on our pocket. My co-host Sal said something on the podcast that went viral a long time ago. And uh, we made t-shirts out of it, and and uh it's something we bring up all the time, which was chase health and aesthetics will follow. Chase aesthetics, and you will most certainly lose aesthetics efficiently. So you chasing health will actually lead to that body that you really want, focusing on health. If you use all those markers that I was talking about, always trying to get better sleep, always trying to improve your libido, always working on better skin, better digestion, better stools. Like if you are using those better strength, like if you are better stamina, you are using all those metrics as the things that you are always focused on, and you're incrementally getting a little bit better at all those over time, and they just keep getting better, better, better, better. Well, when you look back after a year or two years of chasing that, you're gonna be ripped. You're gonna look amazing. You're gonna you're gonna have achieved that thing that's driving you. If you do anything and everything you could to achieve aesthetics, and that's all you care about, and you ignore all the other signals, then it will lead you down a path of hormone dysfunction, um, cortisol junkie, like it'll cause a whole host of problems, of health problems in your life eventually. Maybe not at first, maybe taking the steroids, doing all the things will serve you initially, but over time, a lot of those things will have adverse effects, and you'll eventually lose the aesthetics, even if you got them by chasing them at first. Yeah, so chase health, aesthetics will follow. And I think that it's it's a way better guiding principle for people, and you will, you'll get what you want. Because I get I get too, yeah. I was a young kid who said, I used to say, I'll show, no go, all I care about is the way I look. And I used to I used to tell people when they asked me, like, oh, what do you? I was a trainer for years, never did a PR, never cared about how much I bench press. And somebody would ask me, How much do you bench press? And I'd say some line, like, Listen, I've never taken my shirt off, and a girl asked me how much I bench press, so all I care about is what it looks like. Does she does her jaw drop? Does she go, oh, he's good looking? Like, and so I that's how I train. Like, so I don't care. And so I get it. I get what it's like to have that mindset of like, I don't care, I just care about how I look. But if you chase the health, you will get the look thing. You will get the body you want, and you'll do it in a way that is healthy and maintainable. So if you want that aesthetic look and you want to keep it for the rest of your life, then chase health and you'll get it. You will only get it temporarily if you chase aesthetics.

  Philip Pape: 1:13:09

  Long-term aesthetics are an expression of long-term health. So love it. That's perfect. And it ties exactly to what we were talking about with the metrics. So pivoting just a little bit because you personally are at the at the point now where I know you're experimenting with lots of things and you talk about it on the show, and and I can't keep track of the whole list of things you've done, but I know you've experimented with very long fasts. Uh, I know you've experimented like strange macros, like really high fat macros or something. Like, is there any one of those that's that you're testing right now or something or and or something you've learned? Hey, my my body responds very differently from what the science might suggest as a default. And that was what I learned through the experimentation, or something like that.

  Adam Shafer: 1:13:49

  Yeah, no, that's an interesting question. Uh current currently, right now, I'm not doing anything in particular nutrition diet. Um, I'm very intuitive eating right now. Um but you're right. I've I have literally I've ran every popular diet you can think of. I've messed with peptides, I've messed with GLP ones, been on hormone therapy since I was 30 years old. There's a lot of things that um I've tested. And what I have found is that there's different there's different ways of eating, there's different ways of training that serves different versions of me, even. And so it really depends on uh the the period of like life that I'm in at the moment. Right now, I'm in a in a stretch where I'm heavily focused on business and my son. So a lot of my attention outside of the actual workout of the work is working on more work because I'm trying to build another business and I'm scaling and we're hiring, and that requires a lot of my attention. And I have a six-year-old son that I'm absolutely uh addicted to and want to be so much of his life, and so those two things tend to take a lot of priority, and so my training and diet right now look very minimalistic. I'm lucky to get two days of lifting in a week right now. Um, sometimes they're a little 15, 20 minutes. Sometimes, I mean, yesterday, all I did was I squatted five sets and left. That's all I did. And my diet, I'm not weighing, chasing macros. I do, we do, we're really good in my family about targeting uh whole foods. I I eat we eat a lot of meat um and I eat protein. So I do follow a lot of the things that I I coach on the podcast of like for somebody who's trying to stay healthy and fit. And I find when I prioritize healthy foods, whole foods, and I just eat the protein first, I can really I can play this game of telling myself, like I have ice cream in my freezer, and that's ice cream is one of my my total uh kryptonite, right? To staying in shape. Likewise. But I find I find if I stick to like my, if I'm training two, three times a week, I am going after whole foods, hitting protein first, then I can enjoy uh a bowl of ice cream here and there, a couple times a week, no problem, and enjoy that and still maintain a very healthy fit physique, maintaining that 11 to 15% range that I'm talking about uh while only training that much. And so I'm in that phase right now of very, very minimalist around my diet, very minimalist around my training, really heavy focused on my son and my business right now. But that that always flips. I mean, there they're all like just last year, I did a series uh on YouTube where I documented me getting in really good shape again. I I think I was up, I think I got all the way up to uh 17% body fat or something like that, which is would be considered high for me at this point in my life, and uh documented me coming all the way down to single digits and uh and showed people actually how little I did so uh to to get there. So it was, I mean, I would go in two exercises, that's it. I just do two exercises, moderate intensity, and then I would just like we talked about that we started this podcast, I would make little adjustments every week. I wouldn't go throw the whole kitchen sink at once, I wouldn't go hard strict diet. I would tell it, I would talk to the camera, like, all right, this week I'm just gonna do these things and focus on that. And then next week I'm gonna tweak this and I just turn the night and then I showed this progression, and you know, then I was in shape for a while, then I was a little bit more into tracking and paying attention. So I think it's important that you find things that that like I know uh if I want to be on a podcast like this, I do much better in a fasted state or on a ketogenic diet. I just have better mental clarity. If I were to get up, if I would have got up before you and had a stack of pancakes, um, and then I I would feel a difference in my conversational skills with you. And so I'm just I'm way sharper when I eat that way. And so that's a classic example of how I'll modify something day to day based off of something that I don't do a lot of podcasts at eight o'clock in the morning. And so if I'm gonna do something like that, I'm gonna pay attention to what I ate last night or what I eat in the morning. Where if I wasn't podcasting with you today, then maybe I wouldn't care. Maybe I'd get up and I'd have the normal breakfast or whatever. And so I think one of the most awesome things about playing with different diets, always using the those metrics that I talked about, scan, hair, libido, all those things as like the movers, is you can start to tell, like, oh, I noticed when I I eat this way, for example, I have a better libido and sex drive when I actually have carbs in the diet. So even though ketogenic diet and low carb serves me really well for maintaining body fat or staying kind of on the leaner side, like when I eat high fats, low carb, it's really easy to keep calories down for me. It's really easy for me to kind of stay in shape and not put body fat on. But I also notice my energy levels kind of dip and my libido kind of dips. Well, you know, I'm married to a beautiful woman that I don't want my libido dipping. So I'm gonna modify that and I'm gonna introduce that. Now, maybe there's a week where her and I are in different places of the country and I don't need a I don't need a strong libido. I'm not traveling and I just want to stay fit. I don't want to make bad choices, so maybe I'll go ketogenic. And so what's so fun about this journey that we're all kind of on is trying different things and then paying attention to those metrics that we're talking about and seeing how all of them, all the different diets, all the different ways of eating, all the different peptides, all the different supplements, all these things affect that, and knowing that I can kind of pull from each of them depending on what part of my life or phase I'm in. And I personally, and this is my opinion, that I think that's a very healthy relationship with exercise and nutrition. I don't uh you probably get somebody else on this show you'll interview, and they'll be like, I work out these days, eat this way, I train these, and it's like that. That's not me. Like, I I uh I want to be healthy, and healthy for me is typically somewhere between 11 and 15% body fat, training a few times a week to where I maintain strength. I will I always want to be able to deadlift north of 300 pounds, squat north of 300 pounds, bench press 200 plus pounds, and rotate, move, sit down in an Astograss squat, play with my kid and his Legos in a squat position comfortably and not hurt. These are the these are the metrics that I pay attention to, and I want to do as very little in the gym to maintain those. And so, and that way I can allocate that extra time to the other priorities of my life that I think fulfill me way more than being two more percent leaner or five percent stronger. Like that's it. Like, if I can deadlift, squat that way, get down like that, rotate and move like that. Uh, one, I can kick most dads' asses that my son goes to school with. I can do all the things in my life that I want to. I feel healthy, I'm not gonna have health problems, my blood markers didn't come back good, and I'm applying very little effort towards it. Like that's the ultimate goal for myself. And so, yeah, it looks different and it ebbs and flows based off of what's currently going on in my life.

  Philip Pape: 1:21:17

  Yeah, and that connects perfectly to what you started saying with the matching the initial part of the journey to someone's lifestyle. And then as you track the things, as you care about metrics that aren't weight on the scale, as you learn what works, this flexible approach means it's sustainable, right? It means that you can go with the flow of what's happening in your life, even day to day, week to week. And then it's, I'm glad you mentioned maintenance because obviously a lot of people are trying to get to a place, but then what's after that? And I know you guys talk on Mind Pump all the time about how much less training is required to maintain your muscle mass, for example, you know, like as little as maybe an eighth or whatever the studies say. And it's a good metric to see that this isn't like chasing all out everything across the board. Fitness is your number one priority for the rest to the day you die. It's you know, ebbing and flowing, which is a great message of flexibility and sustainability.

  Adam Shafer: 1:22:07

  So that's one of my favorite studies that we, I mean, I found that study while we were podcasting. So I wasn't even aware of that. Uh and Sal brought it up I don't know how many years ago. And I don't, I mean, I didn't know it was that little. It's if you worked out one time every two weeks, you could maintain your muscle. That is so little. And what I love about that study is it gave someone like me who probably earlier in my years, not probably for certainly in my earlier years, was all or nothing. I either was on the diet, training hard, or I was off, letting myself go until I get to a certain point, then I would be on again. Versus now where I don't really ever have an all-off or really an all-on either. It's like I have moments or weeks or maybe months where I have very low training volume. But what I realized, and I've been able to give myself permission, is like nothing wrong with going to the gym yesterday and just doing five sets of squats. Like just that, lifting that right there is gonna send a signal to my body like, hey, we still need muscle in them legs, don't lose it. And I may not hit those legs again for another week or two, but I'm okay. Like, I'm not gonna atrophy, go way backwards because and so since now that I have given myself that permission that hey, sometimes my training looks very minimal because that's all I want to go there and do, and it's not a focus, but I can do that and I can be okay. I'm not gonna be the most jacked version of me, but I also will still be able to maintain a lot of muscle and stay pretty healthy and stay pretty strong, even doing that little. And so I love uh that study, and I think it's so important that people realize that you're doing it more than just trying to look like the shredded version of yourself all the time. Like, and if you can get in there and do one or two things, it is absolutely better than doing nothing at all. And I for me, at least for me, and maybe people who are listening that resonate with the all or all or nothing type of mentality, moving away from that was a game changer for me. And and uh allowing myself the permission to just go do a couple exercises every now and then, or maybe the diet isn't perfect, but I I'll make a couple better choices than what I did the day before. That uh that gave me a lot of freedom, and uh it has allowed me to stay healthier and maintain a fitter physique longer by having that attitude. And so uh hopefully somebody who's listening who is like me that resonates with is giving yourself that permission to do less because it doesn't take a lot to maintain the muscle that you've built in the past.

  Philip Pape: 1:24:32

  Yeah, yeah, super important. I mean, I remember with the one of my fat loss phases where I was just wiped and I had so many other priorities with business and family. And I'm like, you know, I don't have to train four or five days a week. Let me try two, let me try three. Hey, now I could get extra sleep on those other two days, and all of a sudden you start feeling better and training better. And so it's kind of interesting. All right, so as we wrap up, man, looking ahead to the future, I'm an optimistic guy. I get the sense that you are as well. Even though we talked about the dangers of AI and all of that and social media, everything that's happening, I know you're trying to scale your business, you're always doing something. What really excites you the most right now about where this industry is heading in the future?

  Adam Shafer: 1:25:09

  Um, so I do think we're moving back to a connection. So this is also why we pivoted our business to now we actually train people, right? So we were not training clients. Um, what we did was digital products online. It was far more scalable and we could reach millions of people that way. And so it served us for the first decade. But what we all agree and we recognize is that, and I think COVID really pushed us over that edge to realize how important human connection and interaction is to us as a species. And we've become so digital and disconnected uh because of technology for and not to demonize it, but it's because it's done a lot of great things. I mean, the fact that you and I can be across the country and get on a Zoom call like this or a uh uh you know rest stream is is incredible, right? So technology is awesome. But if this was the only way I ever connected to people, which I think some people do, I think they can be really unhealthy for you. And and we we don't get that oxytocin until you get in the same room as another human being. And that's a very important hormone for health for us. And so I think what the future looks like optimistically is the resurgence of in-person and getting back to human connection. Uh again, that's why we moved to personal training in studio, having clients come in. We're gonna hold more live events. So it excites me. I like that. I like, I mean, what got me into personal training, why I loved it so much. I did not have the vision that, you know, when I was in my 40s, I'd have the biggest health and fitness podcast in the world, and I'd sit on a mic and I'd talk about it, and that's how I would make my living. I did not think that at all. In fact, I got into it because I love people. I have a genuine passion for helping others, and I'm I curiosity about humans, and I like people that have different ideologies and ways of living than I do, and I like connecting with those people that shatter my paradigm, and I love that. And so I'm excited that I think that the industry and our society in general is moving back to human connection and getting back to people. That's what you'll see in my business, and I think that's what we're gonna see across the board. And so if you're a business operator uh in the fitness space or any business for that matter, and there's opportunity for you to do things that help people connect. I don't know if you recently saw one of the one of the viral apps that's making the news and going all over the place right now is this app. It's like a, you remember, I think Wags is the dog app where you could look for a person to walk your dog for a fee. You know, there's a human walking app that has become super popular now. So people are getting onto an app, looking up people that they can pay to walk with them as a service in a business. I think it's hilarious. I don't have a I don't have a dog on the fight if I think it's bad or good. But what I think it more and more importantly, what it highlights is how thirsty we are for human connection that an app like that would go viral and people would sign up for it right away because we want that. We crave that. Um we've been deprived of, I think, a bit in the last five years, maybe even eight, 10. And I think that is the future. I think going moving back to that, we've gone so digital and all these great things have complimented our businesses, but I think the future in fitness, the future in this business is getting back to uh getting in front of people in real life.

  Philip Pape: 1:28:33

  Human connection. Yeah, I wasn't aware of that app. I know there's the apps in Japan that let you like hire a family member uh you know for a funeral or something like that, but I hadn't heard of the walking one. It's funny, you know, for a guy like you who has this, you know, big business and like you talk scaling and you talk about the maps products all the time, to say that obviously is very powerful, right? Because people are always thinking as entrepreneurs, okay, we need to reach as many people as we can, but then you lose that. So I if you have any live events, I would love to come to one of those. I'm curious to hear when the when you guys start announcing something like that. But we want to hook people up with you and and mind pump and everything you guys are doing. So where do you want them to reach you? Obviously, they're gonna they're gonna hit up Mind Pump. I'm gonna throw that in the show notes. You go to witsandweights.com slash mind pump, get access to all the maps products, which we just said uh probably go really well when you have human connection tied to it, which you know, um, where else do you want people to reach out to you, Adam?

  Adam Shafer: 1:29:26

  Yeah, uh, you know, I tell everybody if it's the first time you've ever heard me, don't go buy anything from me. Go consume all the free content that we've created on YouTube, Spotify, iTunes. Uh, you could literally Google uh Mind Pump, Mind Pump Media, and uh everything you see connected to that is us and the stuff and the content that we've created. We have a website called mindpumpfree.com, which is a ton of free guides to help people uh that you can download for absolutely free. Then we have uh we actually have an AI tool called Askmindpump.com, where it's uh we built An AI tool probably four years ago, and it's incredible. So if you have literally any question related to health, fitness, hormones, anything, anything related to your health journey, you can literally go to askmindpump.com, pose the question to us, and you'll get an answer from one of us hosts. And then you'll also get links to show notes and content that we've created around that specific topic. So incredible tool. Go use all the free stuff, uh, enjoy it, and then uh hopefully uh become a listener. All right.

  Philip Pape: 1:30:30

  We'll throw throw all that at the show notes, Adam. And this has been a pleasure. Uh, I've been following you for years, and it was great that we could connect. And you can come on Wits and Weights and share all of your wisdom with my audience, listeners. Reach out to Adam, say hello, check out Mind Pump, and thanks again, man, for taking the time to come on the show.

  Adam Shafer: 1:30:44

  Appreciate it, Bill. Thank you, bro.

Why Now Is the PERFECT Time to Build Strength and Muscle | Ep 393

Get your free Muscle-Building Nutrition Blueprint to optimize your protein intake, calories, and meal timing for maximum muscle growth at any age:
https://witsandweights.com/muscle

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Can you still build that much muscle in your 40s and beyond?

Discover why strength training over 40 might actually be your BEST opportunity to build serious muscle and strength.

Learn the evidence-based science showing that muscle tissue remains highly responsive to training well into old age, why midlife gives you strategic advantages younger lifters don't have, and the engineering framework that explains how building capacity now expands your margin of safety for decades to come.

Let's discuss muscle building, metabolism, aging, and what's actually possible when you apply the right nutrition and fitness strategies at any stage of life.

Timestamps:

0:00 - Why building muscle over 40 is still possible
3:50 - The science of muscle growth and aging
6:50 - Why muscle loss isn't inevitable
9:20 - How older adults respond to resistance training
12:15 - Adjusting protein and recovery with age
16:16 - Why midlife gives you a strength training advantage
22:30 - Building your long-term muscle reserve
27:18 - The nutrition and training inputs for muscle growth
31:16 - Tracking strength gains and body composition
36:24 - Your simple strength training plan to start today
43:25 - Consistency and asking for help
47:05 - The cost of delaying your muscle building goals 

Why It’s Never Too Late to Build Strength and Muscle

You’ve probably heard that building muscle gets harder as you age and that you should have started “back when you were younger.” But that idea leaves out one huge truth: muscle doesn’t expire. It deconditions. And deconditioning can be reversed at any age.

Whether you’re 40, 50, or 65, your muscles still respond to training the same way they always have. The results might take a little more recovery time or protein, but the payoff is just as big—and arguably more meaningful now than ever.

The truth about muscle loss

Studies show a typical 3 to 8 percent loss of muscle per decade after age 30, accelerating after 60. But that number mostly applies to people who aren’t strength training. When older adults begin progressive resistance training, the results can be dramatic—muscle size and strength increase even into the 80s and 90s.

This tells us the “decline” is driven by three things:

1. Disuse (not training)

2. Deficiency (not eating enough protein or nutrients)

3. Deconditioning (lack of stimulus over time)

The fix is the same for everyone: mechanical tension, progression, recovery, and consistency.

Why midlife might actually be your advantage

If you’re in your 40s, 50s, or 60s, you might be better equipped to build lasting muscle than when you were younger. Here’s why.

You have experience and focus. You’ve tested what doesn’t work and built the discipline to apply systems that do. You track progress, make adjustments, and think long-term instead of chasing fads.

You have more resources. Maybe that means access to a better gym, coaching, recovery tools, or simply more control over your schedule and environment.

You have deeper motivation. It’s not about chasing aesthetics (though that’s a great bonus). You’re training for independence, vitality, and longevity. You want to stay strong enough to travel, lift your grandkids, or hike pain-free well into your later years. That’s a different kind of fuel—and it lasts.

The compounding effect of starting now

Think of your muscle as structural capacity and your strength as performance output. Every pound of muscle you add increases your body’s “margin of safety” for the decades ahead. The strength you build today is your protection against decline, frailty, and dependence later.

You can’t go back in time to start earlier, but you can decide not to lose another year to inaction. Waiting means compounding loss. Starting now means compounding progress.

What to do right now

You don’t need perfection to begin. You just need consistent inputs that work.

1. Train progressively.
   Lift two to four times per week using compound movements. Push close to failure, track your weights, and add small increments over time.

2. Eat for growth.
   Aim for 0.7 to 1 gram of protein per pound of body weight daily. Ensure you’re eating enough calories to support muscle recovery and growth.

3. Prioritize recovery.
   Sleep seven to nine hours, manage stress, and take rest days seriously. Older lifters often need more recovery, not less.

4. Stay consistent.
   Progress beats perfection. Missing a day isn’t failure, but long gaps are. Create minimum habits you can sustain through busy weeks.

5. Measure and adjust.
   Track strength progress, body composition, and energy levels. Use that data to make informed tweaks to your training or nutrition.

6. Get help if needed.
   A good coach can save years of trial and error and keep you accountable when motivation dips.

The real opportunity cost

Every year you delay building strength isn’t neutral—it’s a year of gradual loss. But every year you train adds to your strength reserve for the future. The earlier you start, the longer that reserve compounds.

Whether you’re 45 or 75, your muscles are ready to respond right now. You just have to give them a reason to.

Keep using your wits, lift those weights, and remember: the best time to build muscle is always right now.

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Get notified of new episodes. Listen on Apple, Spotify, or all other platforms.

Then hit “Follow” and you’re good to go!

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Transcript

Philip Pape: 0:00

You've probably heard that you should build muscle while you're young because you'll lose it when you're older. And sure there is science behind that, but what nobody's talking about is the flip side of this advice, which is the dangerous myth that once you hit your 40s or 50s, you've already missed your chance. Today I'm showing you three things. First, why the muscle building window never actually closes. Second, why midlife might actually be your best opportunity to build serious strength. And third, the engineering framework that explains why starting now gives you a compounding advantage for the next several decades. If you've ever felt like you're behind or you should have started earlier, this episode will change how you think about muscle, aging, and what's actually possible when you apply the right inputs at any age. I'm your host, Philip Pape, and today we're going to tackle a topic that comes up constantly with my listeners, our clients, especially those in their 40s, 50s, and beyond. I was recently listening to Peter Atia talk about building what he calls a strength reserve early in life. And while I completely agree with this concept, I noticed something missing from the conversation. That is the practical message of hope for anyone who didn't start lifting in their 20s. This episode is about reframing that narrative, that story around muscle building and age, especially for strength training over 40. Not to dismiss the science, which is real, but to show you why the moment you're in right now, whatever your age, is the perfect time to start building strength and muscle. It's a little bit of an inspirational episode, but it's also one of the most important things to wrap our head around and say, hey, I am where I am today. What should I do going forward to give me the best chance and an amazing rest of my life for decades to come? So let's get into it. And I actually want to start with part of a testimonial I received from someone in Physique University. And I'm not going to read her whole testimonials. It's actually quite long. I'm going to focus on what's relevant to today's episode. She said, I asked him if this program was appropriate for a 65-year-old mostly beginner. I've been lifting for a while, just trying to figure out, figure things out on my own, but I really wanted to be doing things right. I feel like I'm doing things right now because I haven't felt this good in a long time, maybe ever. I have a workout program with instructional videos, nutrition app, a community of like-minded people whom I can reach out to anytime I need. I love how Philip and his program gives me a lot of leeway in the things I want to eat and my fitness workouts. Not that I'm a control freak, but this program enables me to feel in control. I don't have to rearrange my entire diet and eat things I don't like. I'm getting results with strength training without killing myself. As a matter of fact, one morning I skip my workout to get an extra hour's sleep, guilt-free, because that's what I needed. And Philip suggests we get our sleep dialed in, is one of the first things we do. The program takes care of my whole person. I'm feeling really good and I'm getting stronger. I feel empowered emotionally and physically because I get to make my own decisions with guidance from Philip. I like his engineering mindset and the fact that he backs up his exercise science with facts. And she goes on from there. But really, the point is she's 65 doing this for the first time. And listen to the kinds of things that are possible again at any age. And I think that is so, so powerful. I love to see when someone who's never done this before, finds the show, finds our program, whatever, reaches out, sends me an email, and says, like, I feel at my wit's end. I'm whatever age, I feel like I can't do it anymore. Perimenopausal hormones, you know, these issues, that issues. It's possible. Okay. And that's what we're going to talk about. So jumping into the topic, let's start with what the research shows because understanding the mechanism helps us engineer the solution. I've talked about it a lot on the show, but I'm kind of bringing it all together today and talking about muscle mass and the decline of muscle mass with age, but that's not something to fear. In fact, it's something that really gives us power. It's something that's at the crux of what many people out there discussing obesity and weight loss and health are missing. So, what does the data say? Let's start with the quote unquote bad news, and then we'll jump from there. The data shows a roughly 3% to 8% loss per decade after age 30, and that accelerates after 60. We also think that's why your metabolic decline accelerates around that age, because of the muscle mass. Because in reality, people's metabolisms tend to stay stable from the age of 20 to 60. I know it sounds insane. There, I did a whole episode on this. I'm not going to go into that piece of it, but from the muscle mass piece, it really starts to decline 30s through 60s and then accelerates after 60. This goes back to studies back to the late 80s by researchers like Lexel and others who measured muscle fiber counts. They mess measure cross-sectional area in looking at aging populations. However, the critical part that gets left out from a lot of these conversations, right? They're like, okay, muscle mass declines. That sucks. The decline is not primarily driven by aging itself. It is driven by what I'm gonna frame as three D's for this episode to make them easy to remember. Three D's, D as in dog. Disuse, deficiency, and deconditioning. Okay, disuse, deficiency, and deconditioning. Most people in these studies, first of all, weren't strength training. I mean, that's just the average general population is not strength training. And they weren't eating enough protein and they weren't providing their muscles with the mechanical tension needed to maintain, let alone build muscle, because they weren't training. And when you actually look at studies where older adults, okay, we're talking 60 to 80 years old, engage in progressive resistance training, the results look like magic and they are remarkable. And I wish we had even more studies like this. There was a landmark study published in the New England Journal of Medicine by Fiat Fiat, I don't know how to pronounce his name, but F-I-A-T-A-R-O-N and colleagues in 1990 that showed that frail nursing home residents in their 80s and 90s had 10 to 20% increases in muscle size and even bigger improvements in strength after 12 to 16 weeks of training. That's it. That's it. That is incredible in their 80s and 90s. And of course, not surprisingly, they saw better metabolism and functional capacity. Functional being a more important word than the word itself. In other words, that's living your life and daily living. Very important when you get into your 80s and 90s. Their muscles didn't know they were old, right? Muscles muscle, no matter how old you are. They respond to stimulus the same way that younger muscles do. They might have different kinetics behind them, different support structures like your bones and connective tissue, but they're still muscle tissue. And the mechanism is very straightforward. When you apply that mechanical tension to muscle tissue, this is understood probably to be the most important driving factor in muscle growth. When you do resistance training, you trigger a cascade of responses at the cellular level. Very important. Satellite cells activate, protein synthesis ramps up, your muscles adapt. We don't have to get into the biology of it. I half understand it myself. I will be honest. I'm still learning this stuff. But I understand that it works and you get stronger, your muscles get bigger, and it doesn't stop when you're 40 or 50 or 60 or 70 or 80 or 90. And unless you're out there listening to this and you're 120, 130, you've already cracked the code, most likely, anyway. What does change with age, though, is how efficient this response is. And this is one of these things we just have to understand and live with. It's okay. Older adults might need a little more protein to overcome a little bit more anabolic resistance, which is kind of that blunted response to protein. They may need more recovery between sessions. The neuromuscular adaptations, like the motor unit recruitment that occurs, might take a little longer to develop. Now, is this because you're older and your body is so trained in one way and your brain is less pliable and plastic and all those? Maybe. Again, I'm not a biologist, but it all makes a little bit of sense, doesn't it? The good thing is, none of this means the window is closed. It just means the inputs have to be adjusted for you, which you would want to do anyway at any age, male, female, you know, different situations, different lifestyles. And so we're going to talk about that throughout today's episode. The takeaway from this first part is really simple, though. Muscle doesn't expire. It does, however, decondition. Okay. And deconditioning can be reversed by conditioning with the same physics that you use to build it in the first place, which again, mechanical tension, progressive overload, adequate nutrition recovery, the basics. Those are the principles. So that's kind of the underlying what's going on, right? And again, I meant remember the three D's disuse, you haven't used it, deficiency, okay, because you haven't used it, you don't have the function, and deconditioning, you haven't trained your muscles. So of course they are doing what they do best, and that is wither away because you don't need them. And we are gonna turn this around. We are gonna flip this entire conversation around and look at why starting now, whether you're in your 40s, your 50s, your 60s, I really don't care, might give you advantages that younger lifters don't have. Ooh, pretty cool, right? I've thought about this a bit. I've thought there's certain things that I have an advantage over younger lifters because I started later. Certain things I don't, but let's focus on the positives. Okay. First, you've got a lot of data and you have some level of discipline. Now, I don't want to over-emphasize discipline for its own sake. I'm not asking people to quote unquote be disciplined. What I'm talking about is that at this stage of life, you've tried lots of things. You're listening to this podcast, you're collecting lots of data, you've learned a lot about your body, your life, you've gone through the school of hard knocks, you've created and developed wisdom. Let's be honest, you have wisdom. Now, there's a lot of stupid people who are 45 that I've met, and yet they still have more wisdom than they did when they were 25. So laugh at that or think about that what you will. Okay. And granted, some people don't have the mindset to develop wisdom, and that's a whole different conversation. But you're listening to this podcast, so I'm gonna say that you've self-filtered into the group that I'm talking to. So you're you're probably not winging it in the gym on YouTube videos. I hope you're not by this point. But if you are, great. That's something we're gonna start from and say there's a more structured approach, a system-based approach. But you kind of understand that it usually takes a little bit of effort, a little bit of a system in place, some form of tracking or measuring, right? You know this from your money over the years. Think about the jobs you've had, the businesses you've had, making money, spending money, losing money, investing money in risky ventures that didn't pay off, whatever it is in your past has probably taught you things that there's some level of awareness, knowledge, discipline, consistent application of some sort of principle that gets you a result. And so think about the areas where you have been successful over the years and you have the years behind you to give you some of that wisdom. Again, to use that word, right? There's lots of things I did I wish I didn't do when I was young, but then I reframe it and say, you know what, I'm glad I did, because it taught me early on what I should and shouldn't do. Okay. This is like the engineering mindset that I talk about on this show, where younger lifters are chasing novelty. And to be frank, some older lifters as well, but they know there's something different that they need to do. And so I see people program hopping, getting distracted by trends. I think you being in your 40s, 50s, 60s, dear listener, you and me, we're we're we've got a little more wisdom. We can take a structured approach. We can track the inputs and outputs, we can make adjustments based on feedback rather than emotion because we know all that other stuff hasn't worked. We know it hasn't worked. So we have that behind us. All right. So I just kind of give you props for that. Give yourself props for being just the fact that you're older means you're wiser in some ways. The second thing I I think here is you've got hopefully more resources than you when you were younger. And there are a lot of different types of resources. One may be money. Not everybody, I understand, but one may be, you know, that you've earned some more income, you've saved some more money, you're probably making more than you did when you were younger. At least you should be, right? And maybe you can afford some more of the tools or coaching or equipment or gym memberships or whatever food, you know, that you need to make it happen. I think that's an advantage of being older, is that you've got, you know, I think of all the things I had college debt, I had lots of, you know, I had credit cards when I was younger, things that I've had to kind of scrape out of. But you also have access to tools and people, a lot more people than probably when you were younger. You can invest in different recovery strategies. You probably have your own place to live where you're, you know, in charge of your bed and your sleep hygiene and your supplements and stress management, your schedule. All of those things, it just what comes to mind for me is just as we get older and we get more responsibilities, the flip side to responsibilities is you generally have resources as well. Okay, maybe that's not everyone, but it's it's a thing that comes to mind to me versus like a 20-year-old. And then the third thing, and I think this is huge, is your motivation is different at this age. Okay, you're not lifting just to look good at the beach, although that could be a great side effect. I always say that. Like the vanity piece, the visual, the physique is a pleasant side effect. But what you're really doing is you're lifting for longevity, for function, for independence. You're lifting so you can pick up your grandkids, so you can hike without pain, so you can live the second half of your life with strength, with vitality instead of decline and dependence and decrepitude. And this kind of motivation is far deeper and more sustainable than vanity. Again, not to knock vanity, but we need the deeper motivations as well that are tied to meaning, values, quality for your future. And if you have children like I do, it enhances it even more. Not to say, not having children, you can't have deep meaning. Absolutely, you can't. Everybody can have meaning in their life, no matter what, no matter your religion, you know, your family situation, whatever. But do you have those things in your life that you're anchored to that makes you far less likely to quit when things get hard? And I would ask you to seek that out if you're not sure what it is. You've got to reflect on that and identify what that is for you, right? For me, that is absolutely my family, my wife, my kids. But it's also their kids when I get older and if I have grandchildren, I don't want to do to depend on them. I want to be the one there helping them stack wood, you know, move into their new house, right? Run around and play sports when I'm 70. Absolutely. And you know what? I see 70 and 80-year-olds who have done this the right way and focus on getting strong, do that. Absolutely. Even if they were already on the path toward frailty. And that's my point of this episode. It's never too late to start. That is why strength training over 40 is not just effective, but can be more strategic. And one little side tangent of this, which actually wasn't in my notes, but I was thinking is you haven't beat yourself up from 20 years of strength training already, whether it was done correctly or not. So that's another advantage of starting late. You're a little bit fresher in some ways. In other ways, not so pliable. I get it. But again, we're focused on the positive. And then the fourth, I guess, advantage of doing this over 40 is, and I think nobody talks about this, is that you can not only build but preserve tons and tons of muscle as if you were young. I mean, I'm gonna be honest, your amount of muscle you can build is still not that far off from what you could have when you started young. It's a little bit less, but not much. And guess what? Most people take a long time to get to their genetic potential anyway. And so I wouldn't even worry about that. I wouldn't even worry about, oh, I only have so much muscle to build. If your problem is that you're running out of new muscle to add, you've already won, you've already won the game. I'm you've already won the game. In that case, you're just you're you're trying to optimize and you're trying to go after that next level, right? And by doing this now, I don't care if you're 55, 65, like the person whose testimonial I read. I don't want to say her name because I didn't get permission to say her name, but yet. But just like her at 65, she is front loading her reserves for the next few decades. I mean, at 65, and if you live to 95, that's 30 more years of health span, wealth span, whatever word you want to use. And you think of it like this if you build your strength and muscle now, okay, over the next couple of years, you build that. We're not, we're not always dieting, right? We want to build muscle. It doesn't have to be in a big surplus, it could be at maintenance. That's a whole separate topic. How do you build? How do you lose? That's other episodes. But if you do that now and then you maintain it, and by the way, it's a lot easier to maintain than build. So, in other words, once you've built some muscle in the first few years, you have a lot more flexibility on how much volume you need in the gym to hold on to it. And then you're holding on to like 90% or more of that new tissue that everyone else is losing their muscle mass. You've built muscle mass and you're holding on to that muscle mass in your 70s and 80s, because you can definitely just keep training. Compare that to someone who never built that reserve in the first place. Even a small amount of that age-related decline is what is going to lead to them being frail and dependent. They're gonna be, they're gonna fall, they're gonna break their hip, they're gonna have joint issues, they're gonna have dislocations. Okay, they're not gonna be able to get off the toilet one day. I know it's it's a terrible, grim view of the future, but it's kind of like in Christmas story where the ghost of Christmas past says you have a choice and this is gonna lead to one future or the other. That's your choice right now. Okay, you're not trying to turn back the clock, you're changing the future clock. And if you want to think of it as getting younger every year, I'm cool with that because I do that myself. I'm turning 45, joking with my wife. I'm like, since the time I was 40, every year, I've actually gotten a year younger. Now, I'm not turning back the clock. I'm still that many years old on this earth. But from the age of 40 to 45, I feel like I've gone from 40 to 35 in age and how I feel and how I function. And and I was joking with my daughters. I said, so I'm gonna do that another five years. When I'm 50, I'll be like I'm 30. Now, at some point, I don't think I can really be like a 20-year-old ever again because of the hormone situation. Although, you know, there is TRT. But I said, you know, at least if I I'm I'm 30, I'm like a 30-year-old when I'm 50. That's 20 years of biological advantage over my peers. And then I just maintain that. And now when I'm 60, 70, 80, 90, I'm far younger in spirit and physique and fit and physical capability than my peers, right? And that's where we want to be. So if you're realizing now it's your time to start building serious muscle and strength, but you're like, look, I listened to your podcast or I'm gonna binge the show, whatever, and it's a lot of information. It's very confusing. I don't want to figure it out on my own, or it's gonna take me a long time to do that, which is super common. And don't beat yourself up for it because that's exactly where I was until I started following people and working with coaches and asking for help. If you're in that situation now, I want to invite you to join Wits and Weights Physique University. This is my semi-private group coaching program. Okay, I'm just laying it out there, being transparent. You get evidence-based nutrition and training, strategies, courses, help, accountability, live calls, all that fun stuff. It's not really about the stuff, so much as the clarity to know what to do for you and quickly be able to get an answer from experts. So that would be myself as well as Coach Carol. She's an expert, especially for women and hormones and thyroid issues, uh, especially. She's also a personal trainer. And you get immediate help from one of us. You also get direct nutrition support. There's training templates and programs designed for every level, every level of equipment, days per week. There's live coaching calls. One of the most value-added things we've been doing is monthly workshops that go really, really deep on things like body recomp and recovery dieting. And the one coming up in November before we get to the holidays is how to finish strong with a year, how to have a bailout strategy rather than trying to do more than is realistic during the end of the year. It's those kinds of things. And of course, the community that binds it all together of like-minded, ambitious people who are all ages. I mean, we have people as young as in their 30s, maybe even late 20s, to be honest, but most people are in their 40s, 50s, beyond, who are focused on doing this, on trying to reclaim their muscle, build it up, become stronger, and just more badass people. Okay. That's excuse my French. That's the the closest to swearing you're going to get on this podcast. And the best part is because you're listening to the podcast, if you use my code FREEPLAN, you'll get a custom nutrition plan as well for free at the beginning. And what that's gonna do is give you an accelerator for what to do, when to do it, how to do it. Right? We don't do meal plans. We don't do anything that's generic. We personalize it for you in a group setting. And you're like, how does that work? Well, come check it out. Go to physique.wits and weights.com. I have a demo in there. You can read all about it. You can ask me questions if you're if you're not sure. Some people will ask 10 questions before they join. I'm cool with that. If you're serious about making this the decade that you build that real lasting strength, because that's what it's about, is strength, guys. It's not about YouTube workouts, it's not about mobility, it's not about you know yoga and mindfulness and all that. All that's great, but it's really about strength and function and fitness that all ties to the rest of it. I want you to go to witsandweights.com slash physique, use my code FREEPLAN to get the free plan, link in the show notes. All right, let's keep building this framework for this episode. Because next, I want to give you a mental model. I think mental models are a great way to understand why starting now is optimal and kind of tie into the the deeper why of why we do this and then how to do it. So I want you to think of your muscle mass as structural capacity, structural, as in your structure of your body. And I want you to think of your strength as the output, kind of like the gas engine, the throughput, the output. Okay. If in any system we design, if you designed a system in life, like a physical product or system, you would design it for future demand, right? You wouldn't just design for the current you current use, you want it to last. Right? When a civil engineer builds a bridge or designs a bridge, they don't build it to handle just the traffic today. They say, okay, we need a safety margin, extra capacity, increased load over time, unexpected stress, wind and hurricanes and all that fun stuff. Your body works the same way. The muscle and strength that you build now is not just for today. It is your margin of safety for the next three, four, five decades. Every pound of muscle you add, every unit of strength you gain, expressed by, you know, weight on the bar, weight on the machines, weight on the dumbbells, expands that margin. And even if you start later in life, the act of building capacity is still going to pay an equivalent dividend across your remaining lifespan. And therefore, by starting today, you're retrofitting your system with far better materials and greater load-bearing capacity. You're increasing your whole capability of your body. Someone who started at 25, they have a longer runway, sure. But you can still build substantial capacity in a short period of time and then maintain it because that's the key. It doesn't actually take a long time to build it up. And as I mentioned before, maintenance requires a lot less work and stimulus than growing. So we want to focus on that growth. Once you build the muscle, holding on to it becomes easier. And that's why I always tell you, dear listener and our clients, that building, if you if you're not sure if you should build muscle or lose fat, I err on the side of building muscle. Now, you're gonna build muscle regardless if you've never done it before, whether you're losing fat or not, because you've never done it before. Your body's gonna respond really well. So don't get hung up on that. Okay, don't get hung up on Phillip saying you need to gain weight. I'm not saying that. I'm just saying you need to build muscle. All right. Not five years ago because you don't have a time machine. Okay, that's not the best time. You can't go back in time. But think of the opposite. Every year you delay is another year it gets harder. Your margin of safety decreases, and your health span decreases. Okay. Again, not to fear monger what's happened in the past. If you're 70 today listening to this, this is not a negative story. This is a positive story. You're listening to this and hearing this message now. Amazing. Now do something about it. Now, what do you do about it? Let's talk about the inputs and outputs because this is where we get practical. All right. On the input side, you have, I'll say, four primary variables for today. And I say for today because I always go on podcasts and I talk about the pillars of health. And sometimes it's four, five, six. I kind of move them around. But today we're gonna talk about four. The first one is training. You have to progressively resistance train, ideally three or four times a week, but for some of you, two is gonna be amazing, better, way far better, infinitely better than zero, that's for sure. And you have to have enough volume and intensity to create the adaptation where you build that muscle. And that means primarily using compound movements. So these are exercises that involve major natural movement patterns, squats, deadlifts, pressing, and so on. You have to progress, meaning you're not jumping around doing YouTube workouts. You're doing whatever you did on Monday, you're doing it the next Monday, and you're going up in weight or going up in reps, right? That's just simple examples. You're progressing. And the real first principle here is you're training close enough to failure that your muscles, muscles have to respond and get bigger. Okay. Lifting weights with progression in that way, that is what signals your body to build and maintain muscle tissue. So if you've been doing this for 20 years and going to the gym, you're like, Philip, I love all what you're saying, but I just don't can't seem to build muscle. Well, you're not doing a progressive program. I guarantee it. If I looked at what you were doing, that is not what you're doing. If you still have the same 15-pound dumbbells, and that's the heaviest dumbbells you have in your home gym, that's the problem, right? That's the problem. Now, if you're 80 years old, you've never worked out before, 15-pound dumbbells might be super heavy. So it's all relative. So that's the first variable is training. The second variable is nutrition. And this is why it's four today, because I'm kind of lumping them into big categories. Nutrition. Adequate protein is the underwriting factor here, overriding factor here. And we're just gonna hammer it home the message again. 0.7 to 1 gram per pound of body weight a day. That's it. Optimal muscle protein synthesis is closer to that higher end, but at least 0.7 grams per pound, you're golden. Okay, older people tend to need more than than younger, but that range covers pretty much anybody, and it's good enough. It's plenty good enough. Don't sweat it. All right. At the same time, you need enough energy. So energy is calories. And for some of you, that might be a slight surplus or even a you know, more aggressive surplus to really focus on growth. If you're trying to recomp, I would keep it more toward a very slight surplus. If you're overweight, if you have extra weight to lose, you're gonna have a slight deficit. But the point is you have to have enough energy where your body feels like it has the resources to build the muscle in response to your training. A fat loss phase, specifically lose body fat, is a trade-off to that. And I'm not discussing that today. But if you have extra body fat to lose, there is a place for fat loss phases for sure. They're not very long, they're moderate too aggressive. You get them over and done with, you get out, and you go back to building muscle. Third, the third input here is recovery. Sleep is non-negotiable. I can't tell you enough how sleep is probably the biggest other than alcohol for some of you. Sleep is the thing that many of you should focus on first. Now, I don't mean first to the exclusion of training. You've got to train as well. But if you had to pick all the other things that could be having the biggest impact on your metabolism and your muscle building, it's probably sleep, quantity of sleep, quality of sleep, you know, managing your fatigue and recovery between your sessions, using the right workout program depending on the phase you're in, all of that fun stuff. You know, even managing your stress, like can be connected to this. All of that supports your ability to adapt. And I'm not, I'm not, I'm not gonna talk about movement today and neat and all of that. I do think it's very, very important that you're walking and getting up. I'm not gonna put that as one of the one of the primary variables for muscle building, but I probably should. Now that I think about it, I probably should. But we're gonna go to the fourth variable, and that is consistency. I wanted to I wouldn't include a process-related input here because this is the multiplier. It's also the thing that you succeed or fail by because you can have perfect programming, perfect nutrition, but if it's sporadic, you're not gonna build anything. If you have adequate nutrition and adequate training and do it consistently, oh, that is gonna compound into such an amazing transformation. Now, it may take longer than if you did it more optimally, but so what? It's gonna happen. It's gonna happen. All right. I briefly mentioned earlier we're gonna be doing a challenge in physique university in November before the holidays. It's to close out the year. I'm mentioning it because part of that strategy is having a bailout option. What I what I mean by that is we all want to be optimal. We all want to train five days a week, you know, eat our protein every day, sleep nine hours, all those things. We want to, we want to do those, but in reality, we don't do those. And rather than saying, well, okay, I'm not doing them, so I'm a failure, we have minimums that we try to hit. And I've talked about that many times, having a minimum. But I'm gonna take it one further and say, why don't you have a bailout strategy as well? Even if you can't do the minimum, do you have a bailout strategy that still gives you a win? That's my point when I talk about consistency is doing something every day, a non zero in all the things you care about. On most days, if you're optimal or even minimum, you're gonna be good. Even if some days are bailouts, as long as you don't have any zeros. Now, are you never, ever, ever, ever, ever gonna have a zero? No. But this sets up your mindset and the way you approach your process to give you tons and tons of flexibility. I could be optimal, I could be minimum, or I can go with the bailout strategy. Anyway, that's something we're gonna teach in the workshop. Let's get back to this, talking about consistency. I think it's super important as probably the number one principle. And remember, consistency and intensity often battle each other. So if you're trying to go all out and be too intense, you know, David Goggin's style and everything, that's a sure recipe for failure. If you're all or nothing, sure recipe for failure. Let's pick one thing, training. Let's pick two things, training and sleep, whatever makes sense for you, and build up over time. Okay, that's the inputs. On the output side, well, now you have to see how all those inputs are translating to what you're doing. And that's where you track metrics that give you feedback. You're like, oh, data, numbers, you know what? All life, all existence can be reduced to math. I don't whether you like to hear that or not, it's true. Math is a universal language. And that's because math is simply, is simply an abstract representation of reality. That's all it is. And by reality, I mean the empirical, observable things that happen, the cause and effect that happens. Okay, and if you can figure out the cause and effect, ooh, you've got it made because that gives you control and confidence. That's what we are all about. So, for example, weighing yourself on the scale every day is a perfectly normal thing to do. It is not obsessive and it's associated with high positive outcomes in not only weight and fat loss, but main maintaining that. There's so many myths in the fitness industry about tracking, being somehow obsessive or calling causing OCD type behaviors. It's not true. If you are if you are prone to those to begin with, certain things may trigger that, but it's not because you're tracking itself, it's because you've got other issues to resolve. So take scale weight, for example. You weigh yourself every day and then you average it out or you smooth it out over time to see if your body mass is moving in the right direction. Now that's one example where there could be confusion because you're like, okay, Philip just said I need metrics. I'm weighing myself every day and it's going up and down two, three, four pounds. Can't do anything with that data. You're right. You can't do anything with that data because the daily fluctuations are meaningless. But over time, the amount of energy you have stored in your fat is going to be indicated by the trend in your weight over time. Once you've smoothed it out for that noise with the water weight fluctuations, right? So you kind of have to have a level of understanding of these things. Obviously, that's where a coach can help. You know, we can help. Listening to this show can help. There's things I had to figure out not till I was four years old. So that's trend weight. Strength progression in your lifts, your big lifts, your accessory lifts, really anything you're trying to progress to confirm that you are adapting. And again, you have to know what to measure. What do I measure? Okay, I need to measure the exercises, the sets and reps, the weight. Really, it's just the numbers and track that they are changing over time. Measurements for your physique, your body composition can be helpful to understand where the weight's going, whether you're achieving your goal for losing body fat, visceral fat, et cetera, and health. And then there's all the subjective markers that become more objective over time of your biofeedback, recovery, energy, soreness, right? Hunger, sleep stress, et cetera. And I could go on, I've done entire episodes about this, but this is a closed loop system. Your body's a closed loop system. So when you apply inputs and you measure the outputs, you can reasonably determine what should be adjusted. Okay. And I say reasonably because it's it's a practical thing, it's not a perfect thing. You're not going to get down to the third decimal on stuff. You're just going to know that, okay, the way I'm eating right now is leading me to slowly drift up in weight. Okay, great. So I need to eat a little bit less. Like that's a simple way to close the loop. The precise amount of calories you need, you'll never truly, truly know. And I'm sorry if you're a perfectionist and feel like you have to know, you don't. It's just good enough. It's not mystical. It's not dependent on luck. It's not dependent on genetics either. The genetics establish the baseline. Once you measure yourself, it's it's baked in. The genetics are baked in, but you need to measure yourself for you. Then the genetics are baked in. At that point, it becomes engineering everything. Right? Now I get it, things change over time. As we get old, if you're in your 50s, if you're a woman, you're like, wait a minute, I've got my hormones are all changing. So how can you say that it's just inputs and outputs and it's a closed system? Because at any given point, what's happening is still a result of what's going on in your body. And it may be because of some combination of hormones and nutrient deficiencies and your behavior and your brain genetics, but it's still measurable to a good enough extent that you can do something about it. Now, some of you may need to measure more things than others. Some of you may need blood work, right? We do performance blood work for a reason. Go to witsandweights.com slash blood work, just to give ourselves a plug here on that, because that can be a massive game changer for anybody who has done the things or they're starting to put all this in place and there's still something else that seems a bit mysterious. But anyway, the beautiful thing is this works at any age as long as you provide the right inputs, right? Stimulus, recovery, nutrition, consistency, and measure the outputs. All right, so this episode's going longer than I than I anticipated, but I think it's important. And now we get to the practical stuff. So let's make this concrete. What should you do if you want to start building muscle and strength right now, regardless of your age? First is start with a structured training program. When it comes to lifting weights after 40, it's no different than lifting weights under 40. But the difference is how you respond and understanding that your nutrition and training need to work together. So if you're new to lifting or if you're coming back after a long break and you're detrained, a very simple full-body program, three times per week with the big compound movements can get you 80, 90% of the way there. Absolutely. In fact, it's probably what you should do. All right. Programs like Starting Strength, uh, we have different novice strength programs in Physic University that also uh play on this concept of keeping it simple. It's boring, but basic. You focus on learning the movements, getting in touch with your body, building that base of strength, and establishing consistency. And you'll start to pack on wins after win after win after win as you see how strong you can get pretty quickly. Even if you're 80 years old starting this, I guarantee it. Doesn't mean you have to use a barbell. It might be a dowel, it might be body weight, it might be dumbbells. It depends on where you are. Now, if you're more advanced, if you're intermediate or advanced, well, then we have to look at having enough volume to continue growing. Okay, that could be splitting into four days a week, even five days a week, using things like upper lower body splits, body part splits, push-pull legs. There's so many varieties. It you almost can't go wrong if you're just sticking to the principle of progression. I've known people who almost do random gym workouts, but they actually tracked what they were doing and did more of that as they went, and they even had progress. It's not optimal, but the principle is they train close to failure and they progressed. That's it. You have to increase the demands on your muscles over time, whether that's more weight, more reps, or more sets. You have to. So that's the first one is training. Second is your nutrition. Again, we're tying these back to the inputs that I mentioned earlier, but being a little practical. For nutrition, the best thing to do is to track it. Okay. Just track it. If you're like, oh, here he goes again. It's because how do you know where your money is going without tracking your spending? How do you know where your food and your body mass is going with track without tracking your food and your body mass? I mean, it's just, it's, it's almost self-evident. But if you're not doing it, don't complain that you don't know your metabolism or don't know why you're gaining weight. And don't say, I think I'm eating this or I think my metabolism is this, because that means you don't know. Just to be honest about it and honest with yourself. So start tracking your food, which includes your macros and your calories, and hopefully also your micros. I love MacroFactor, my favorite app. I use it myself. Use my code WITS and Waits, all one word, to get a free trial on that app. And that app is not only going to track your food, it's going to give you an estimate of your metabolism. And then you'll know how much you need to eat for what you're trying to do. You have to be tracking for two or three weeks before you could really get enough data. And that's why you have to be consistent about it. And then you adjust your calories based on if you want to lose fat, you want to maintain, you want to build muscle or recomp, whatever. Now, underlying all this is how do I eat? And that goes down to eating consistently, having enough meals throughout the day, having enough protein in every single meal and fiber. If you start there, the rest is going to slowly fall in line as you realize what it takes to reach your goals and the quality of foods needed and what it takes to not be hungry and and and things we've covered in other episodes on this show, I'm not going to go into, but it's eating whole foods, eating fiber, eating consistently, not doing things like fasting and keto and all these restrictive diets. You don't need them. If you want to do them and they feel great for you, I've always said go for it, but you don't need them. Third is again recovery. And this is where a lot of people at our age screw up because you're training like you're younger without recovering adequately, and then you get injured or you get burned out, or you don't focus on form, or you're trying to progress really quickly and you don't dial in the movement pattern. In my opinion, getting the movement pattern right, but not dragging it on for months is probably a good approach. Okay. Being mindful, getting a coach. I don't care if it's a personal trainer in the gym, hopefully somebody that knows what they're talking about, reach out to us, join physique university, whatever it is, to get that help. I've had multiple coaches as I've learned to train, and I still go and I talk to coaches, and I still will occasionally hire a personal trainer who I respect to do form checks for me. Because it's and I've got friends who are really good lifters, so we can do the same. We can send it to each other. I'm in a barbell club that I pay for where there's a coach who can do that. You know what I mean? So I do it myself. I walk the walk. I suggest you do the same, or else you're gonna screw something up and you're at best, or yeah, at best, you're just not gonna progress, but at worst you're gonna injure something. We don't want to do that, especially with the age-related stuff. And then fourth, well, how many points do I have here? I have five points, practical points. Fourth, I want you to think long term. This is the mindset piece about consistency and patience. It's not a 12-week challenge. I'm sorry if you think this is a short-term thing, like I need to improve my physique, I'm gonna take 12 weeks and I'm gonna move on with my life. That's not. This is the next chapter of your life. This is your new life. This is the system you're gonna use for decades. And that means this is the fun thing about it, this is the positive thing about it. The choices you make for that system should be things you want to make on a day by day, by week, by month, by year basis. Things that are sustainable, not just effective in the short term. Listen that to that carefully. Choose things that are sustainable, not just effective in the short term. What that means is you're gonna choose things that have some level of effectiveness, but are also sustainable. So you're actually making a little trade-off most of the time to do that. The trade-off is you're not picking something that's 100% effective, you're picking something that's 90% or 80% or even 70% effective, but you can do it. And when you take effectiveness, modest effectiveness from I'm gonna do it, you get the transformation. You get it on whatever timeline it's gonna happen, but you get it. If you're going for 100% effective, but you don't do it, that's a zero. That's a big goose egg. So get that into your thick skulls. And I'm talking to myself here, guys. Okay, I'm talking to myself here. And then lastly, here, get help if you need it, and pretty much everybody needs it. It's insane that people will go to all of these specialists for healthcare, but they won't talk to one person when it comes to the preventative, functional, lifestyle nutrition stuff, right? Personal trainers, coaches, nutrition coaches, friends who know about this stuff, you know, programs, groups, free groups, paid groups. I don't care. Whatever your resources allow that makes the most sense, get help. Work with someone who could give you objective feedback and keep you accountable. It's not not only does it accelerate your results, which I know a lot of you, you know, because you're a little bit of impatient, impatient for this, that kind of piques your interest. But but more importantly, it prevents the legion costly mistakes that you're gonna make otherwise, which you're gonna learn from, but it might take you 10 years, 20 years, 30 years. We want to learn these now, okay? Especially when injury is at stake or your health's at stake. So the point to all of this is there are clear actionable steps you can take starting today. This is not theory. This is something, this is not something you have to wait for the perfect time or even wait till Monday. The perfect time is right now. If you have to go back and listen to this episode over and over to get it in your head, please do. Use the timestamps, share it with a friend, talk about it with a friend, post it on social media and say, this is the thing that I learned, and I'm gonna do this today because I want to live a great life. The last thing I want to leave you with is a concept called opportunity cost. Okay, this is for all my engineering and finance folks out there, business people, but really this is for everyone. Opportunity cost is the value of the next best alternative that you give up when you make a choice. Okay, it's the value of the next best choice that you gave up when you made another choice. And here's what I've realized about opportunity cost regarding building muscle later in life. Every day you delay is not just a day that you don't build muscle. It's a day that you lose muscle because your baseline is not neutral. You don't just stay the same. The baseline, if you do nothing, is decline, is muscle loss, is strength loss, is reduced metabolic health, is decreased functional capacity, is age-related disease. So the question is not whether you should have started earlier. The question is what are you going to do now? Here's the truth you can spend the next five years regretting that you didn't start 10 years ago. Or you can spend the next five years building something remarkable so that five years from now you look back and realize this was the turning point right now, today. The muscle building window never closes. It never does. It is always open to you. You have to choose to walk through that door. And what I've seen over and over with clients in their 40s, their 50s, their 60s, in this age grain, which is the vast majority of people I work with and I identify with, is that when they do start, when they commit to the process, when they trust the system, the results are life-changing. They change your life. I'm almost in tears thinking about this and how many people could be helped by just taking this message to heart. And it's not just how you look. Great, that's a side effect. It's how you feel, it's how you move, it's how you show up for yourselves and for the people you care about. I'm choking up here. This is the this is it. This is the decade you take control, this is the decade you build that reserve, this is the decade you engineer the body, the life that supports what you want to do for the next 20, 30, 40 years. And how powerful is that? So let's just recap what we've covered today because it was a long episode. First, muscle loss with age is not inevitable. It's driven by inactivity, inadequate nutrition, lack of stimulus, and your muscle remains very responsive to all of these things well into old age, which means you can do something about it. Second, midlife is an ideal time to start because you have a little bit more discipline than the young ones, you have some more resources, you have some more motivation to apply a longer-term approach. You're thinking about longevity, you're thinking about your kids, your grandkids, you're thinking about the future generations and your own health and not being in a nursing home. You're not chasing just the short-term vanity. And again, I'm okay if you want to be good looking, but you are building that foundation for longevity, for independence, for metabolic health. Third, doing this today is gonna expand your margin of safety for the next few decades. You're not trying to reverse time, you're trying to change the future of your time on this earth, right? And it all compounds. So you've got to start today, just like with money for retirement. And then finally, the practical steps are actually clear. We know what to do. You train the right way, you eat enough protein, you recover, you think long term, have patience, be consistent, and get help if you need it. All right, so I always like to leave you with some clear action or something simple that's gonna be helpful. And I thought for today's episode that sharing my muscle building nutrition blueprint could be a fun thing to grab because it's one of the more comprehensive guides I have. It tells you how to set everything up for muscle building, but it also has a real life example. When I did this myself a few years back during a muscle building phase, I gained 10 pounds of muscle and how I did it. And so it kind of gives you the numbers, gives you the thought, gives you the process and the really practical stuff. And that's totally free. Okay, you can download it for free. Go to witsandweights.com slash muscle. A link will be in the show notes. Witsandweights.com slash monk muscle to set up your nutrition plan for building muscle. And that is it today, guys. I hope you were inspired. I hope you take action. Please do. Until next time, keep using your wits, lifting those weights. And remember, the best time to build muscle always, always, always is right now. Talk to you next time.

The Alcohol Cancer Report Cover Up | Ep 392

Get your free Eating Out Guide to make smart nutrition choices at restaurants and handle social drinking situations while staying on track with your body composition goals:
https://witsandweights.com/free

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Your tax dollars paid for a government study on alcohol and cancer. Scientists completed it. Then it disappeared.

Discover why a major health study was buried, what the evidence-based research actually reveals about alcohol's cancer risk, and how this impacts your nutrition choices and long-term health.

Learn the truth about alcohol consumption that affects your metabolism, body composition, and longevity goals.

Episode Resources:

• Alcohol Intake and Health Study

• National Cancer Institute: Alcohol and Cancer Risk

• WHO Europe: No safe level of alcohol consumption

Timestamps:

0:00 - The buried alcohol-cancer study
1:11 - Why this matters for your health and body composition
2:43 - How the study vanished and why
3:52 - Surgeon General's warning label push
5:46 - International evidence on cancer risk
7:04 - What the science shows about alcohol and cancer
9:19 - How alcohol damages DNA and disrupts metabolism
11:28 - Light drinking still increases cancer risk
14:41 - Industry lobbying keeps labels off bottles
17:12 - Debunking "alcohol is heart-healthy" myths
20:21 - Understanding relative vs absolute risk
23:01 - Alcohol's impact on muscle building and protein synthesis
25:45 - How alcohol affects fat loss and body composition
28:30 - Practical drinking strategies for lifters

The Hidden Truth About Alcohol and Cancer

Most people think of alcohol as a calorie issue or a willpower test, not a cancer risk. But new revelations show that connection is much stronger than most of us realized—and the government may have known it.

Back in 2022, the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services commissioned the Alcohol Intake and Health Study to update federal dietary guidelines. It was paid for with taxpayer money, completed by independent researchers, finalized… and then quietly buried.

No release. No summary. Nothing.

Fast-forward to 2025, and the Surgeon General publicly calls for cancer warning labels on alcohol bottles, citing evidence linking alcohol to seven cancer types. Around the same time, reports revealed that drafts of the federal guidance were being watered down, dropping language about stronger drinking limits. Meanwhile, international agencies were publishing new data showing alcohol as one of the world’s most preventable causes of cancer—with no safe consumption level.

So what exactly are we not being told?

What the science already says

The National Cancer Institute makes it clear: alcohol is a proven risk factor for several cancers, especially breast, colorectal, esophageal, liver, laryngeal, oral cavity, and pharyngeal.

Here’s how it works. Your body converts alcohol into acetaldehyde, a toxin that damages DNA and interferes with repair. Alcohol also increases estrogen and other hormones tied to breast cancer, blocks nutrient absorption, and acts as a solvent that helps carcinogens penetrate cells.

Even light drinking raises risk compared to not drinking at all. One drink per day increases the risk of certain cancers, and two drinks per day roughly doubles it. That’s not “alcohol abuse.” That’s just normal social drinking by most people’s standards.

The World Health Organization’s stance is blunt: there is no safe amount of alcohol that does not affect health. It’s in the same carcinogen category as tobacco and asbestos.

Why this matters for lifters and health-focused adults

If you train, eat your protein, and care about recovery, alcohol directly undermines those efforts. It suppresses muscle protein synthesis, wrecks sleep quality, alters hormones, increases belly fat, and stalls fat metabolism while your body works to detoxify it.

Think of it this way: you train to build, recover, and improve. Alcohol works against every part of that process.

So if you’re serious about long-term health, muscle, and longevity, this isn’t about “quitting forever.” It’s about making conscious trade-offs instead of operating on myths like “healthy in moderation.”

How to drink smarter (or not at all)

You don’t have to swear off alcohol completely to protect your health, but you do need to be honest about how much you drink and how often.

1. Know what a drink really is.
   A standard drink equals 5 ounces of wine, 12 ounces of beer, or 1.5 ounces of spirits. Most pours—especially at home—are larger than that.

2. Watch frequency.
   Seven drinks in one night isn’t great, but one every night for months is worse for long-term health. Give your body alcohol-free days to recover.

3. Think lifetime exposure.
   Cancer risk compounds over time. Fewer drinking years and lower average intake equal lower lifetime risk.

4. Match your habits to your goals.
   Fat loss, better sleep, or muscle gain? All get easier when you drink less often.

5. Control what you can control.
   You can’t change genetics or environment, but you can control alcohol intake, training, sleep, and nutrition—the biggest levers for long-term health.

6. Ditch the guilt, not the awareness.
   You don’t owe anyone an explanation for not drinking. Social pressure around alcohol is cultural conditioning, not science.

The bottom line

Whether or not that buried report ever sees daylight, the evidence is already clear: alcohol is a toxin that increases cancer risk and sabotages recovery. The more you drink, the higher the risk—starting from the first drop.

Cutting back doesn’t mean cutting joy. It means giving your body more time, energy, and resources to build muscle, burn fat, repair DNA, and live longer.

You don’t need a government report to make that decision. You just need the truth.

Keep using your wits, lift those weights, and remember that what you put in your body is always your choice.

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Then hit “Follow” and you’re good to go!

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Transcript

Philip Pape: 0:00

Did you know that back in 2022, the US government commissioned a study on alcohol and cancer? The study was finished, and then someone decided, eh, maybe we don't want to release that. Meanwhile, the Surgeon General is calling for cancer warning labels on bottles of alcohol, and many Americans, many people in general, have no idea alcohol is even linked to cancer. So, what exactly is in that buried report? And what does the evidence we do have say about your cancer risk when it comes to alcohol? Let's find out. And today is gonna be an interesting one because we're talking about alcohol, but from a different perspective. Now, I'm not here to tell you to never have a beer or a glass of wine. I have one myself on rare occasions, but what I am here to do is give you a full, unfiltered picture of what the evidence shows so you can make truly authentically informed decisions about your health. And when a government, in this case the US government, commissions a scientific study with your tax dollars, whatever your opinion is on that, and then they complete the study and then they refuse to release the findings from a frankly perfectly well done study, that is a bit concerning. It's also an issue with transparency, especially when you went through this whole process and then you buried the information. And the information is actually pretty powerful when it comes to the stuff that we care about on this podcast. And I hope you know nobody might now. I'm trying, I try not to be preachy. I just want to be honest about, you know, when information's out there and there are different actors, different players, whether it's uh an influencer on social media or government institution or an individual that are hiding something or not telling the full story, that we can bring out what the reality is and really focus on that, not so much on attacking all of these sources. That's not what I do. I don't do the hot takes and the call-outs. It's more of, hey, what do you need to know? So here I'm just gonna jump into it today because it's a this pretty cool topic, to be honest. It's it's scary though. Um, here are the facts that are based on some different investigative reports that I was able to get on podcasts, on news, on different sources. And this is obviously the first source of potential issue in that what can you trust today when it comes to news? But I I kind of pieced it together, and it looks like back uh three years ago, 2022, the HHS, HHS, the Health and Human Services in the US, commissioned the alcohol intake and health study. Okay, the alcohol intake and health study. And you're obviously free to look all of this up online, make your best decision and judgment about this information. And the goal of the study was to gather the latest evidence on alcohol and health so that they could update the federal dietary guidelines. So this is taxpayer-funded research, and most of this research, and in this case, it was conducted by independent academic groups. Okay. So assuming we trust, you know, who did the study, we're not going to get into that. The study was done, it was completed, it was finalized, ready for pop publication, and then crickets. And I'm not even, many of us don't even know about this. Um honestly, I didn't learn about it until this year. That's why I'm doing this episode. So just in the last few months, different reports found that despite the report being completed, the federal officials didn't release it, probably due to, you guessed it, politics, industry pressure, whatever, whatever the motives are, the research was paid for, which it kind of pisses me off, right? Because these are my tax dollars, they're spending on this stuff, and again, whether you agree or not, and then someone's like, hey, we did the study, it was a good study, but we're not gonna release the data for ulterior reasons. So if we go back to January of 2025, the Surgeon General Vivek Murphy issued a public advisory calling for cancer warning labels on all alcohol. And he cited evidence linking alcohol to seven cancer types. And I think he all even mentioned that most Americans don't even know that alcohol causes cancer. And it's not something that we talk about too often, although the few guests that I've had on to discuss alcohol have absolutely discussed the long-term links and correlations between alcohol and cancer. And at the time, if you go back and look at the data, what happened? Well, the stock market for alcohol stocks took a tank, you know, took a drop, and there was some pushback by industry. And then the study itself that was buried, people are like, hey, did you know this was out there? Maybe this is relevant. What maybe we should see what it actually says. And then you go to mid-2025, so this is a few months later, there's some reports in the news that show the federal, the drafts of the federal guidance were being watered down. So you have this international consensus starting to tighten around the risks of alcohol and cancer. And then the guidance here in the US for the federal guide guidelines starts going the opposite direction, dropping all this language about stronger limits. And then in October, so literally, I think when this episode comes out, actually, if yeah, October 2025, there was another piece of evidence that reaffirmed alcohol is a major preventable cause of cancer with no amount, no amount of alcohol being entirely risk-free. I think that was the IARC. So you've got the stronger warnings on one hand, you've got our surgeon general in the US even kind of agreeing with that. Then you have this funded study being kept from public view. So that's kind of the background. Whatever you make of it, I hope I didn't, I hope I gave it a pr fairly objective treatment of just telling you all the sides of what's going on. And so what if we just ignored all that and said, hey, what does the evidence say already about alcohol and cancer? What does the existing research say? The National Cancer Institute does have a public fact sheet. You can look it up, and it says clearly that alcohol consumption is a risk factor for several cancers. And it has the strongest evidence for seven in particular: breast cancer in women, colorectal cancer, esophageal, liver, laryngeal, oral cavity cancer, and pharyngeal cancer. Of course, you can hear several mouth cancers in there, right? So you've got colon, you've got esophagus, esophagus, liver, various parts of the mouth and throat, breast cancer in women. And there's nothing mysterious about this, right? We know how alcohol works in the body. It gets broken down, gets broken down into acetyldehyde, which, and I never pronounce that right. That's the toxin. And what that toxin does, one of the things that toxin does is damages your DNA. Like many foreign substances that damage DNA, just like when you smoke, anybody who smokes, you're basically constantly damaging and mutating your DNA. That's why it leads to cancer. And the other thing that consumption of alcohol does is it limits nutrient absorption. We know that it turns off all processing of all the other macros while your body is metabolizing the alcohol. And that could have an impact against cancer protection mechanisms in the body, like folate. Okay, so now you're not absorbing certain nutrients, at least for a time, especially if you're a frequent drinker. But you don't even have to be that frequent of a drinker. We're gonna get to that. It also affects your hormones, it increases estrogen and other hormones that are tied to breast cancer and acts as a solvent, which helps carcinogens penetrate your cell membrane. So it's just a lot of interesting mechanisms. And of course, as always, the dose response relationship is important. It's relevant because the more you consume, the higher your risk. What's important to know though is even very light drinking shows an elevated risk for certain cancers versus no drinking. So it's kind of like that big step up. It's kind of like you go from your baseline, you have even one drink, and you get a step up, another drink, another step up. And so we're trying to figure out that point at which we should really be concerned, especially if we care about our health and longevity. Now, in this, I think it's in the same fact sheet, or I don't know where I got it, but I have notes from the NCI that says that some cancers, like female breast cancer, for those, the risk increases even at moderate, quote unquote, or light quote unquote levels. So one drink per day increases breast cancer risk, and two drinks per day roughly doubles certain cancer risk. And this is compared to non-drinkers, of course. The WHO Europe 2023, again, you guys can judge these institutions however you want. I'm just sharing the information. They said, quote, when it comes to alcohol consumption, there's no safe amount that does not affect health. And, you know, a lot of people say, hey, this is one of the world's leading public health organizations. Whether you agree with it or not, it's it's a pretty strong statement, right? And it's out of Europe, where they actually have a lot of alcohol consumption. So that's interesting too, for what it's worth. The IARC classifies alcohol as a group one carcinogen, which is the same category as tobacco and asbestos. And it means that there's enough evidence that it does cause cancer in humans. So I would at least want to play it a little bit safe here and say, okay, there's a link between alcohol and cancer to some extent. There is. And if we have information via recently funded studies that further strengthen that evidence and that gets buried, you have to question why. And maybe you don't care about why. Maybe you just care that the fact that it was buried and we want to know the information. What is the information? And I'm gonna just take a quick break here because we're gonna get into the politics of public health in a bit. We're gonna talk about some of the nuances and then what this means for you practically. We have a lot of interesting information outside the podcast, and much of it is free, including these free guides. If you go to wits and waste.com slash free, I was going through our guides and I realized we have one called Eating Out, the Eating Out Guide. And it's one of the most common questions I get is like, what do I do when I go out and I'm presented with alcohol and appetizers and salads and I'm going out with friends, they're having pizza, all that stuff. So go to wits and waste.com slash free, free or click the link in the show notes for my eating out guide. I think it's a good compliment to since we're talking about alcohol today and you probably tuned in to learn about alcohol, it's a good way to make smart choices and handle social drinking situations and stay aligned with your goals and still enjoy life, right? And and that that's back, that's bringing us back to the practical side of this. So witsandwaits.com slash free or click the link in the show notes. All right, that was just a quick tangent because now we get back into the serious stuff. Why was this study buried? If you look at the US alcohol industry, it's massive, right? Tens of billions in annual revenue, probably big lobbying power in Washington, like many industries. And I'm sure they don't want cancel cancel warning labels on their products because they've seen what's happened to the cigarette industry since that occurred. And that's because these labels tend to work, right? When you put warnings on products, people consume fewer of them. They start talking about them a different way. We know smoking dropped dramatically after the warning labels and the PR campaigns, the public education campaigns, to the point where I've seen in my own lifetime, I was born in 1980, you know, smoking sections in restaurants and lots of people smoking everywhere, to it's like stigma. It's a stigma now that you know you're ostracized if you smoke. For again, for better or worse, whatever, you know, freedom, choice, blah, blah, blah. Not even getting into any of that. I'm just sharing what I've seen happen. And so the alcohol industry, alcohol is a very interesting thing because we we glamorize it, right? And again, I consume alcohol very rarely these days compared to what I used to because I understand its health impacts and I don't, I want to take care of my health. But there, there's been a lot of messaging over the decades, like red wine is good for your heart. You guys have heard that one. You've heard the talk about resveratrol in red wine. And all of those have been debunked. Like there is zero positive to alcohol in any respect whatsoever. Zero, zero. So if you're still hearing some of those messages, or alcohol is fine in moderation, like that it's healthy in moderation, absolutely zero. No, that is not true. There's zero positive when it comes to alcohol. I just want to put that out there. Okay. That's different from saying you can't ever enjoy, I shouldn't use the word enjoy, but imbibe or consume something that you want to consume for some reason that's different. Okay. And you think of terms like responsible drinking and moderation. Again, that is interesting language that twists what you think about them. Where you're like, okay, this is, I get social benefits. You know, you look at beer commercials, Corona, whatever, where they're partying on the beach, right? We we all know the thing. And certain things get glamorized as well, even in other areas, like cigars. I am surprised. A lot of my friends who are listening are probably gonna be called out on this that you've got guys in the fitness industry who smoke cigars and think that's okay. I'll say not okay. It's perfectly okay from a freedom perspective and choice perspective, but it still has some cancer risk, just like cigarette smoking. It's just a fact. And they may know this and they may choose to do it anyway, and that's fine too. So we got to look at data and also understand marketing. And then when we throw politics into the mix, now we have science and politics bashing heads, which is always uh an interesting partnership. Because again, the Surgeon General actually called for warning labels, which means it got to a level where they were possibly going to do that, right? And he doesn't even control the labeling. Congress does, right? And that, and of course, the industry knows that, so of course, they they just have to prevent Congress from doing that. And I think they've been successful, right? It looks like they've been successful. So that's kind of the politics behind it. Again, for better or worse, what you believe, whatever side of the aisle you're on, et cetera. So I want to I want to steel man the other side because I do want to give enough nuance and I guess fairness if that's if that word even applies here. I'm not sure. Not all cancer associations with alcohol. So not all links between cancer and alcohol are equally strong across all consumption levels. Remember, I mentioned breast cancer before. I mentioned that specifically because they get separated out as far as their impact. A there was a National Academy's report that basically said, look, some have a much more cautious or conservative link based on what we think we see in the evidence. And that there's a lot of mixed evidence as well, which is to be expected in the scientific community. If you listen to my episode with Dr. Eric Helms, we go into great depth on falsification and on empiricism and all of that. What we do know is the link between what's called moderate consumption and colon cancer is well established. And that that concerns me as someone with a history and who you know is male because that that tends to affect more men, right? Just like breast cancer affects more women. For other cancer types, the relative risk increase at low levels of alcohol is small, it's still non-zero, but it's smaller than, say, colon cancer or the breast cancer. Now, the way that we talk about these risks is important too because it's very confusing, right? If one drink per day increases breast cancer risk, what does that mean in absolute terms? What does that mean? If you look at the baseline lifetime risk for US women for breast cancer, it's 13%. And one drink per day might increase that to 14 to 15%. Now, is that a big deal? Statistically, it is. Individually, you might say that it's not, but you can only weigh these risks if you know about them. That's kind of the point. That's why I'm actually making this episode. Right now, less than half of Americans actually know that alcohol causes any type of cancer at all. And I think that's a big gap in awareness. And I'll be honest, I really wasn't clear on that till much, till very recently, especially when I got into the nutrition world, finally started to be like, okay, we need to pay attention to this stuff. You know, we need to pay attention to this because the link is much stronger than, say, the link between eating processed foods and cancer, let's say. Not to be confused with overconsumption of any food where you get where you have obesity and that's linked to cancer. That's a whole different discussion. So, I mean, this data that came from this buried report could have informed some more clear guidance, I suppose. Right. Instead, we still have this confusion, this gap, whatever you want to call it. So, what do you want, what do you do with this information? You're like, all right, Philip, that's all interesting. This is not a news podcast, this is not a political podcast, great. What do we do? All right, first, understand what a standard drink is. I think that's helpful because a lot of you are underestimating your consumption, just like we do with food, especially when we're not tracking. A standard drink isn't that big, guys. A standard drink is five ounces of wine, which is like that very small glass of wine that you're a little bit upset that they poured you in this restaurant. You're like, come on, you're charging me 12 bucks for that. 12 ounces of beer. Okay, again, who gets 12 ounces of beer? That's a can of beer. That's not like a pint. Now, granted, some restaurants have those very thick glasses that are like 14 ounces, they call it a pint, you know what I mean. Or one and a half ounces of spirits, right? Any hard liquor. Anything you pour at home is gonna be way more than that. Come on, admit it. Admit it. Second, I want you to think about frequency over quantity. Not not always, but often. I want you to think about that. Because seven drinks in one night is different physiologically than one drink per night for seven nights, even at the same weekly total. And you're gonna say, like, which one is worse? You know what? I don't know. I don't know. I would say the seven drinks in one night is probably worse because it probably highlights a different issue unless you do it like once every three years because you go to some party, you know. But I'm not sure that's the case with a lot of people, right? The one night, the one drink per night continuously, that might be a habit, a habit that you can mold over time, like I did. I used to drink wine every night, and then I switched to just beer on the weekend or wine on the weekend, then I switch to like one a weekend, then I switch to non-alcoholic, and I hardly ever drink now, right? And again, I'm not holding myself up as some paragon of this stuff. This has taken me years to even get to that point. And I still will occasionally have a drink. So that's the second thing is think about frequency over quantity. Just look at your patterns. The third is think about cumulative exposure because cancer risk is about lifetime exposure to all the different things that cause cancer, right? More years plus higher average consumption is going to equal greater risk. So even if you are having seven drinks in one night, but you do it every five years, my guess is your risk is minuscule close to zero from that. I don't know if drinking a whole bunch of drinks in one night and that's the only time you ever did it is the same as like smoking, you know, a pack of cigarettes one day and it's the only time you did that. I'm not really sure. Because I definitely have heard the idea that even one cigarette that you've ever smoked that can mutate your DNA and cause cancer. I don't know. Don't quote me on that. Um, fourth is that risk is multifactorial. Remember, alcohol is just one thing. But look, you control what you can control. So control the things that you feel have the biggest impact on your outcome and your results, your body composition, your hormones, your longevity, your health. Okay. Fifth, if you're strength training, alcohol has additional downsides. We've talked about this concept before. I did an episode about the fourth macro and how it affects fat loss and muscle. It impairs so many things that it really is a big negative in the world we inhabit here on wits and weights. Whether you're talking protein synthesis, sleep, it's you know, the empty calories basically that you get from it, your performance, your fats, visceral fat storage, belly fat. Anybody concerned about belly fat shouldn't be drinking too much alcohol, right? So if you care about those things, think about what you can control and why you're doing it. Because from a physique and health standpoint, less is always better all the way to zero. Zero is going to be the best in this case. And I won't say that about a lot of things. I'm never gonna say you have to have zero processed foods. You can actually have a decent amount of ultra-processed foods in your diet and have optimal health and live a long life. You can't have a certain amount of alcohol on your diet and hope to have an optimal life. That that there's a difference because one's one's a toxin, one's a poison that's foreign to your body. And that's alcohol, by the way. In case I wasn't clear about that. All right. So I'm not saying never to have a drink. I'm saying know what you're doing to your body when you do, and drink less than you think is moderate because we're all lying to ourselves about what moderate is. Let's be honest. There's a quote I saw in my notes, I think it was from the IARC, that said, risks start from the first drop. Okay, risks start from the first drop. Not the full risk occurs on the first drop, but that there is this dose response cumulative effect where there is some risk once you start to drink at some level. So if you drink daily, could you shift to a few times a week? If a few times a week, could you shift to just special occasions? If you're doing just special occasions, could you have one instead of three? And so on and so forth. Every reduction is going to reduce your exposure to cancer. Every alcohol-free day is a day your body isn't dealing with damage to your DNA. And you do not owe anyone an explanation for not drinking, by the way, right? The social pressure around alcohol is truly bizarre. It is truly odd when you step back and think about it. We've normalized regular consumption of what's essentially a carcinogen. Okay. So if I didn't get my point across by now, I'm not sure I ever will. And at the same time, I'm saying the dose matters, the accumulation matters, the context of everything else you're doing matters. It all matters, guys. Think about the nuance. So here's what ties this together your body is constantly making repairs, right? It's repairing itself. When you lift, you create, let's say, micro damage that gets rebuilt stronger, so you get stronger, bigger, bigger muscles. Your liver is a great detoxifier. It's processing nutrients, it's filtering all the toxins that come through, including, yes, alcohol. Your immune system is gonna eliminate abnormal cells as best as it can, including precancerous cells. So your body's doing wonderful things to constantly clean itself up and avoid this, but they also require energy and recovery to do that. And alcohol goes against that, right? It's gonna force your body to prioritize detoxification. It is literally poison. And your liver and your immune system, everything else has to say, eh, we need to get rid of this first before we do anything else. That diverts resources from protein synthesis, from sleep quality, from you know, your inflammation is gonna go up and damage and DNA damage is going to accumulate. Again, accumulate over time, just like with smoking, right? Accumulates over time. The more you do it, the longer you do it, the more frequently you do it, the worse it is. So if you're training hard, if you're eating enough protein, if you're managing your sleep and stress, if you're being consistent, and then you're regularly introducing a substance that counteracts all that hard work while increasing disease risk, it's working against yourself. That is that is a factual statement. That is it. It's a factual statement. You still have a choice, but it's a factual statement. And so this buried stuff buried buried, that's how I used to say it. This the this buried study is important because it just highlights that we need to be in charge of our own lives and the information we receive and seek out. And we have to be careful what we believe, but also understand there's information that we may believe that isn't even available to us, right? So it gets complicated, right? You don't need that study to make informed decisions. There's plenty of evidence. And every single one of you listening has more control over this than almost any other health factor, to be honest. Like it's it's quote unquote easy from that perspective. You can't control your genetics, you can't control your environmental exposures in general, right? In general, without big changes, but you can control whether you drink, how much, how often you drink, along with the other things you're controlling, like your training and how much protein you eat, et cetera. And that's really, really powerful. So go ahead and use that power. I want you to use that power. All right. I that I think that's all I want to say. Just remember, you have the agency, you decide what the trade-off, what trade-offs are worth it. I'm not gonna tell you what trade-offs to make. I just want to get to you to be informed. And information is power, as they say. All right. So if this episode gave you an interestingly different perspective, maybe a little different than most of my episodes, to be honest, but it taught you something about alcohol and health. All I ask is you text it to a friend. Obviously, don't text it to someone who's gonna be combative about this topic, but maybe someone has said, like, hey, have you heard about the issues with alcohol, or I'm trying to reduce my drinking, or you know, I'm trying to get healthier. Text it to a friend. Text it to somebody you love who is curious about this topic, and that's it. That's all I ask of you. I'd be grateful. Until next time, keep using your wits, lifting those weights, and remember that making informed decisions about what you put in your body is totally up to you, and that is powerful. This is Philip Pape, and you've been listening to Wits and Weights. I'll talk to you next time.

How Can We Trust Hypertrophy and Nutrition Science? (Eric Helms) | Ep 391

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How can you tell when science is solid? And when it’s just being sold to you?

Dr. Eric Helms returns for his third appearance to unpack how we interpret fitness research, why “evidence-based” doesn’t always mean “accurate,” and what it really takes to think critically about the information you consume.

We break down the philosophy of knowledge and why understanding how we know things leads to better results. Eric and I unpack skepticism vs. cynicism, spotting red flags in “sciencey” claims, and balancing real-world experience with research. You’ll also learn a simple framework to stay curious without getting misled.

Today, you’ll learn all about:

2:25 – Setting the stage for scientific thinking
10:50 – Why critical thinking beats blind belief
15:07 – The meaning of epistemology
25:01 – How empiricism changed modern science
34:52 – What black swans teach us about truth
48:27 – Cynicism vs. healthy skepticism
59:50 – Making sense of the hierarchy of evidence
1:12:56 – Turning data into practical results
1:28:50 – Where to find credible fitness research

Episode resources:

• MASS Research Review

• On Google Scholar: Eric R Helms, h-index: 35, i10-index: 68, and cited by 6811

• On PubMed - PMID: 24092765, with 89 articles (including 20 preprints)

• Instagram: @helms3dmj 

• Facebook: @ericrhelms 

• Threads: @helms3dmj

• YouTube: @Team3DMJ 

The Limits of Fitness Science and Why Understanding Beats Knowing

Most people who follow evidence-based fitness trust the research. We talk about protein targets, progressive overload, and calorie deficits as if they’re laws of physics. But how often do we stop to ask why we trust these things? How do we know that the “science” we rely on isn’t being filtered through bias, cherry-picked data, or misinterpretation?

In this conversation with Dr. Eric Helms, we explored not just what we know about fitness and nutrition, but how we know it and what that means for applying science in the real world.

Why science isn’t as simple as “trust the data”

When people say, “I trust the science,” they usually mean they trust certain people who interpret that science. But the scientific process is messy. It’s built on a chain of assumptions, tools, and interpretations, each of which can be flawed.

As Eric points out, every study is conducted by human beings. Humans bring biases, incentives, and limitations. There are funding pressures, small sample sizes, poorly controlled conditions, and measurement challenges. Even when a study is done well, one study rarely tells the whole story. What matters is the body of evidence over time.

That’s why we talk about hierarchies of evidence: systematic reviews and meta-analyses (where multiple studies are aggregated) help us filter out noise. But even then, the findings are probabilistic. They tell us what’s likely to be true for most people, not what’s certain for you.

The danger of cynicism disguised as skepticism

We live in a world where every claim has a counterclaim, and misinformation spreads faster than evidence. Healthy skepticism is essential… it keeps us questioning, testing, and learning. But cynicism is different. Cynicism assumes the system is corrupt and therefore rejects everything out of hand.

If skepticism says, “Let’s look at the data,” cynicism says, “They’re lying to you.” And when cynicism takes over, we stop learning. It’s the same mindset that drives conspiracy theories and extreme diet tribes: “Big Pharma doesn’t want you to know this,” “doctors are hiding the truth,” or “carbs are poison.”

True scientific thinking means being open to being wrong. It means asking, “How could I falsify this belief?” rather than “How can I prove I’m right?”

Why context matters more than certainty

Even in a world full of good data, context is king. The same research finding can lead to wildly different outcomes depending on who applies it and how.

Take protein intake. Meta-analyses show that around 1.6 grams per kilogram per day is near optimal for most lifters. But for a beginner who struggles to hit half that amount, or an advanced bodybuilder chasing the last few percentage points of lean gain, the “best” target looks different.

The same goes for training volume, rest intervals, or diet breaks. Studies give us averages and trends, not prescriptions. Your individual response (what actually happens when you apply the principle) still matters most. Evidence informs the framework; experience refines it.

Using evidence without worshipping it

So how do we balance the two?

• Start with established evidence. Look to systematic reviews and position stands from reputable organizations (like the ISSN or ACSM). These synthesize large bodies of data, reducing the chance of bias.

• Understand the limitations. Even high-level evidence has blind spots. Studies can’t perfectly capture human complexity.

• Apply, observe, adjust. Use science as your compass, not your cage. Apply what’s likely to work, monitor the results, and refine from there.

• Stay curious. When something works better (or worse) than expected, that’s data too. It doesn’t mean the research was “wrong,” it means your individual system interacts with those findings in unique ways.

Why “I don’t know” is the most scientific answer

In fitness, there’s pressure to sound certain. Coaches, influencers, even scientists are expected to give definitive answers. But as Eric says, “Science creates more questions than it answers.”

Saying “I don’t know” doesn’t make you ignorant, it makes you honest. It acknowledges that knowledge and understanding aren’t the same. You can know that studies show a correlation between X and Y, but understanding means knowing why it matters, how it was tested, and what it doesn’t prove.

The best coaches, practitioners, and communicators aren’t the ones with the most confident answers. They’re the ones willing to keep asking better questions.

The bottom line

Fitness science isn’t broken, it’s just human. It’s the best system we have for finding truth, but only if we use it with humility. When you understand its limits, you can navigate it with confidence instead of confusion.

If there’s one takeaway, it’s this: being “evidence-based” isn’t about memorizing PubMed IDs or blindly trusting experts. It’s about cultivating a way of thinking: a willingness to question, to learn, and to admit when you don’t have all the answers. That’s how real progress happens, both in science and in your own training.

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Transcript

Philip Pape: 0:01

If you've been pushing through knee pain, nursing a cranky low back, or avoiding certain lifts because your shoulders complain, you need this episode. My guest today reveals why these three areas fail together, not separately, and how most training advice makes the problem worse. You'll discover why stability in one area affects pain in another, how to modify movements without abandoning your goals, and what actually builds resilience instead of just managing symptoms. Stop choosing between results and pain-free training when you can have both. Welcome to Wits and Weights, the show that helps you build a strong, healthy physique using evidence, engineering, and efficiency. I'm your host, Philip Pape, and today we're discussing why the joints that handle some of the most load, your knees, your low back, your shoulders, tend to get beat up and how you can achieve a pain-free approach to your training and movement. My guest today is Dr. John Russin, a physical therapist and strength coach who's worked with everyone. He's worked with athletes from the MLB to the NFL to the Olympics, powerlifting, endurance sports. He founded the pain-free performance specialist certification, which has certified thousands of coaches and clinicians since 2018. He is the author of the new book, Pain Free Performance, which I've had the pleasure to read myself. And he was even named a top 50 health and fitness expert by Men's Health. Today, you're going to learn from John why your body, especially the hips, the shoulders, the core, tends to thrive as a system, how to modify movements without abandoning those precious strength goals that we all have. What actually builds joint resilience versus just treating symptoms and how to progress and still train hard? Train hard. We want to train hard while staying healthy. Whether you're currently dealing with pain or want to prevent it before it starts, listen up to the entire episode because John is about to drop some wisdom when it comes to training longevity. John, welcome to the show. Phillip, that was one hell of an intro. I appreciate it and I'm absolutely buttered up. All right. You're psyched. You're psyched. That's what we want to do here. We want to talk about how to stay healthy. We got a bunch of lifters listening in. We have a bunch of people that want to lift. We might have an 80-year-old grandmothers who were just told that if they don't start lifting, they're going to be in a convalescent home. You know, we've got everybody who needs to get healthy and fit. And I want to start with thinking about the body as a system and what you call the pillar, kind of the hips through the core to the shoulders and why that's so important. I know, I know when I'm doing my deadlift, why it's important, but really I want to understand the big context here. Let's start there.

Dr. John Rusin: 2:43

There's this big misconception when it comes to strength training or health and longevity training today that we just have to get isolated strength. You get isolated strength at your abs for lower back pain, isolated strength at your biceps to look better, isolated strength and hypertrophy at the butt if you want to fill out your genes. But that's not how the body is engineered to move. And it's definitely not engineered to function. What it is engineered to do is an integrated movement model, which is central lines of tension and stability, which puts us in the best possible position to stay healthy and also optimize performance. And we get at that central line of tension with something called the pillar, which is essentially the shoulders, the hips, and the core working synergistically together to give us the best possible result, no matter what the goal set is.

Philip Pape: 3:30

Okay, cool. Okay, so you're you're one of those guys that gives nice, concise statements. I could tell you've been on a million podcasts. I love it. Okay, so so a center line of tension, central line of tension. I think that's great, especially the word tension because it it reminds me of various queuing protocols with, you know, whether just today I was doing T bar rows. I don't know if you saw it on Instagram. Not sure if I'm prop holding the proper line of tension, but that's kind of what I think about.

Dr. John Rusin: 3:56

I thought you were Arnold. I had it wrong. That's right.

Philip Pape: 3:59

Yeah, actually, you're supposed to have a little rounding on that one. But, you know, so let's talk about that a little bit more. When we say the central line of tension, are we are we talking about the context of everyday movement as we're walking around thinking about our posture and such? Are we applying this specifically to protocols in training, protocols in rehab? Like where does it apply practically?

Dr. John Rusin: 4:19

Well, for my clients and my athletes that I've worked with, the first skill that I try to teach them and at least have them hone in on some sort of requisite skill and connectivity of the pillar complex is being able to teach breathing and bracing. You know, breathing and bracing is super unsexy. The fact that we're sitting here talking about it on a podcast means that, wow, it must be important because that's the last thing that people want to do in their training. But we get it wrong when it comes to breathing and bracing. Specifically for pillar bracing, we never connect the ball and socket base joints to the spine. Every time we hear, hey, if you want to protect your spine while strength training, especially going heavy, brace the core, use your core, get your abs tight, all these cues, but they're incomplete because without managing the shoulder joint, which is the most mobile joint in the body, and then the hip joints, which are the second most mobile joints in the body, we never have that central line of stability. We essentially just have a little bit of tension through musculature that cannot connect to the ground, it cannot connect to weights, it cannot connect to your human movement system. So simply by going through and connecting these three integral areas, we give ourselves a superpower to be able to create internal tension, meaning that mask much musculature can create tension to be able to stabilize and centrate, essentially get those joints into optimal positions in order to function, but also in order to not take the wear and tear of your strength training, no matter the movement or the exercise. And instead, we direct that force and we direct that load right into the key musculature or the movement patterns that we want them to.

Philip Pape: 5:54

Yeah, and that that's definitely speaks to me from a physical perspective of creating that solid end-to-end system of transferring load. When I think of physics and biomechanics, I'm a very nerdy engineering guy. And our listeners are as well. So they do love this stuff. They do find it sexy, by the way, breathing and embracing. Okay. Love it. So I'm kind of jumping around my notes here, but I guess when it comes to breathing and embracing, is there a universal set of steps that could apply to anything anytime you need to do this? You know, we hear terms like intraabdominal pressure. We talk about using lifting belts sometimes versus not when training. Um, I know there are misconceptions when I see someone squat and they're like breathing out as they come up instead of holding the breath and things like that. Yeah. But are there are the universal tips somebody could take away, whatever they go and do in the gym next week, that they could apply?

Dr. John Rusin: 6:40

So the first thing that we need to do is have that connection point, be able to create tension around the shoulders, then the hips, then breathe in, brace around the core, and have this central line of tension. But from there, many times people come to me and they go, Oh, yeah, I know how to brace. Well, why are you visiting me with lower back pain and chronic shoulders that don't move immobile and are causing you pain on bench press? It's a matter of being able to actually take the activity at hand and brace the tension to that activity in a smart and common sense way. You know, the way that we're gonna deadlift for a one repetition max is far different than the way that we are gonna go in for a 25 rep goblet squat. We need to be able to have a dimmer switch on our tension and our overall bracing strategy. And that will be polar opposite for what our breathing is. So, breathing and bracing need to go together. It's like peanut butter and jelly. When you're going for a one RM deadlift, of course, we want to be able to brace maximally. We want to hold our breath and we want to move that load because we don't want a whole lot of moving parts as load-centric loading is going to be the focus. But as soon as we actually have to take in oxygen in order to survive a set or into survive our lives, we need to be able to make our pillar tight, be able to have common form and technique that holds up against the stress. But we also need to make sure that we have oxygenation that does happen indeed. So we go through different breathing and bracing strategies. Essentially, as load goes up, your breathing capacity goes down. As load goes down, your breathing ability goes up. And it's all about minimal effective brace in order to keep optimal mechanics.

Philip Pape: 8:22

Great. So effectively, there's I'm picturing an inverse set of curves, somewhat like a spectrum between full bracing, fully holding your breath because the load is near maximal, all the way to more of a work capacity, endurance, you need the oxygenation. So you, you know, the you don't need to brace to that extent. In fact, it could be counterproductive, which reminds me of my front squats this week, you know, whereas doing sets of 10 to 15, very different experience where you're getting a little bit winded versus sets of three to five on a back squat or something. So actually, I remember in your book, guys, anybody watching the YouTube, I was joking, that's kind of a tome coffee table reference book in all the best ways. His new book, Pink Free Performance, because I did read through this and I do, I do appreciate how you go over very specific context for each of these. You know, you have like ladders, you have different level types of movements and rep ranges where you breathe in different ways. So we don't have to go through all of that on the show today, but I do want listeners to understand that context matters and the breathing embracing matters. What I want to get into next, John, is training hard. I think you said in the book something like training pain-free doesn't mean training easy. It's it's training in ways that make you resilient without breaking you down. And a lot of people here modify for pain. I've got pain, I'm rehabbing this and that, and I'm gonna take it easier. I'm gonna go light. And unfortunately, a lot of doctors give advice that they don't specify what they mean, which side tangent, by the way. My my mother-in-law, her doctor just said, you need to start lifting now and heavier the better, or you're gonna be in a nursing home before long. So I appreciated a doctor saying that. But uh, what's the relationship between like training hard and training smart, if that's the terms we want to use? You know what I mean?

Dr. John Rusin: 10:01

Our industry has had a pendulum swing, I think, over the last decade or two. We went from, hey, just go out and kill yourself in the 60s, 70s, 80s, up until the 90s, hypertrophy at all costs, big lifts for strength and muscle building. Don't warm up, don't worry about anything. It's all gonna be good as long as you're as big as humanly possible. And then I think like late 90s into the 2000s, we got into this like quote unquote functional training trend. And everyone wanted to become a physical therapist. Everyone wanted to be a corrective exercise specialist. And all of a sudden, strength coaches and personal trainers were doing pseudo-physical therapy on the floor of the gym. And we forgot to actually train for the physical capacities that give us that health and longevity, strength, muscle, cardio and endurance, all these things that are heavy hitters. And at pain-free performance, we are the middle ground on almost every single thing because I've been at high performance athletics and sports, I've been in physical therapy, uh, working with people that are out of surgery or having market pain responses. And I do believe that halfway between many of these extremist polarizing swings is going to be the right approach for many. But really, what it means is that we need to be training as hard as possible in a concentrated and a focused way. And we need a standardized system in order to just do all the right things that we need to be doing for our health longevity orthopedically and systemically. But more so, we need to be avoiding the wrong things because it's avoiding the wrong things that actually push us forward in terms of our momentum decade by decade.

Philip Pape: 11:38

And what are those wrong things? What are those wrong things, John?

Dr. John Rusin: 11:41

Wrong things, man. There's a laundry list of these wrong things. But I think the number one thing that people tend to neglect is their well-roundedness in terms of just being a functional human being. Like I do believe that there are things that every single human, no matter if you're a child all the way up into an active ager, should be able to do with your body in terms of their movement patterns. But I also believe that there are physical capacities and characteristics that need to be able to be trained and maintained for a lifetime if we are gonna indeed thrive. And many times we don't have that mindset when it comes to our training. We have, hey, I am a hobbyist. I'm only interested in this one thing, and I'm gonna deep dive into this one thing until it breaks me down, burns me out, or leaves me with an injury that I have to then take a break from. We call that the planned meathead deload. We want to avoid all of these things and just simply be a little bit more well-rounded in our training so we can have the ability to be pain-free, not suffer injuries, but also just function more normally in our lives, being able to do things with physical autonomy that we were meant to do.

Philip Pape: 12:48

Physical autonomy. I love that. Yeah. Seriously, man. This lack of well-roundedness, we're all guilty of it, myself included. Some of it comes from time, right? Like, how can I do all the things? Some of it comes from, you know, passion where you get into something and you go all hog wild in it. Some comes from the dogma in the industry, I think, where the different camps say, like, this is all you just need strength. That's all you need. You know, like you don't, which, and and I've come from some of that. And the more I get exposed to these things and talk to guys like you, the more I start to integrate all this. But what I want to be careful of, because I could see it happening if you like, if you read your book and you have these train strength training or you have these training templates at the end and there's different days per week, different levels of experience, it can seem overwhelming if you've never done all of that. You're like, oh my God, I gotta do the warm-ups and I gotta do the foam rolling, I have to do this and that, the other. Where do you meet people in the middle when they're starting from that mindset?

Dr. John Rusin: 13:40

I think at the entry point is important. Like people are gonna have different entry points into the industry. Maybe cardio is your entry point, maybe doing a progressive powerlifting program is your entry point. But if you train long enough, you're going to be humbled. It is not a matter of if, it's a matter of when. And that humbling usually happens through injuries. It happens through performance plateaus. You can't quite get what you used to get. And then all of a sudden, people make the mistake of going, hey, you know what? I'm dogmatic. I believe in this one thing. What's the fix to this one thing? I'm gonna double down on this one thing instead of maybe going right or left of that one thing. Maybe if you're super into powerlifting, moving a little bit of hypertrophy and mobility will probably do you some good. If you're a cardio bunny, actually going into some functional strength training is probably the thing that you need. The rule of opposites definitely applies when it comes to hobbying inside of our industry. And I think that over time, people are pushed to become more well-rounded if they want to continue to do the thing that they love to do, which is training. I know that clients that I work with and many of my athletes, they're not worried about just training today. They love this. They are doing it every day because it's become part of them. And they want to make sure that they can do it into their 40s, 50s, 60s, 70s, and beyond. And that doesn't happen by changing what you're doing at 70 when you're all broken down and hurt. It it changes with what you decide to do today, just little by little, to be able to incorporate base things that, again, we should be able to do.

Philip Pape: 15:15

And I like the lateral. You mentioned lateral, I think in the previous response, but the the, because I think of lateral thinking, like getting out of the box, same thing, physically lateral, which means start from where you are today and then branch out. And it reminds me of some guys I follow who I'm actually running some of their programs for that very reason, like Jeffrey Verity Schofield. You know, he'll throw in cardio two days a week to his training programs. And it's like, it's in there. So if you're a lifter who's used to following programs, you're like, cardio's in there. I'm just gonna do it. It kind of gets you to do it. Or Brian Borstein, who's into more of the, I guess, the high rocks kind of level of a little bit more elite hybrid athleticism, Cody McBroom. We had Chris Gethin on the show. I think his episode's come coming out right before yours. And I think it's important because for a while, I personally was in the like the starting strength world, and there's a lot of value there for sure. I mean, I credit that with a lot of strength development. But then there is looking down on a con condescension against, you know, anything else, right? Like, you know, and I talk bad about CrossFit sometimes, but only from the perspective of when people do it, you know, have bad form and they're slamming out reps and they're getting injured, you know, there's something to be said for that. So with this context, then going back to the pillar, maybe that's where we can start. And we talk about like referred pain and why people have injury and why people have pain. Is this a compensation thing going on that's important to understand? Or where do we start breaking this down?

Dr. John Rusin: 16:38

I think 30 years ago, when you look at the greater body of evidence and research, and then you look at professionalized education within the universities, spent way too many years there. We thought that this pain thing was just a pure mechanical approach to movement. Hey, if you move in this way, you will have pain and you will get injured. And today that's laughable. You're just like, what? You know, like a biomechanics course showed me how to be pain-free for life. If that was true, we wouldn't be dealing with the chronic pain and injury cycle that we are currently seeing amongst our active population today here in America. So I think that pain is definitely a more complex conversation that we need to be having. But calling it what it is, I think the first line of being able to write yourself is being able to move well. And what moving well essentially means is moving well for your body, your particular body, your limb lengths, your joint types, your body size, and being able to take that and look at your skill set and be able to customize your positions and know very well that not everyone is going to look exactly the same way as they squat. Not everyone is going to be able to deadlift from the same height with a neutral spine. And not every running mechanic is going to be the same gate locomotion cycle. We are unique beings. And I feel like in every other aspect of the industry today, everything's so unique, the functional health cycle of unique blood testing, so we can get on supplements and drugs. And then it comes to strength training, starting strength, squat like this, overhead press like this, bench like this, deadlift like this. That's a great starting point. And I'm so happy that there is a strength emphasis coming into our industry today. But strength is more than just three or four cookie cutter textbook exercises. Strength is a physical characteristic, strength is not a specific exercise. And just having the epiphany of making that realization is huge for people's long-term health.

Philip Pape: 18:39

So when it comes to moving well for your body, then what I know some people will interpret that as okay, a squat's gonna look massively different. And I have to, where am I trying to go with this? People always go kind of to the extreme of this. And I think I think what you're saying is because of your anthropometry, because the angles are different, the principles you're trying to adhere to, which are universal, like I don't know, vertical bar path or efficient movement, yes, are going to translate to a different, you know, different angles between the hinge points or something like that, right? So maybe elaborate on that, thinking about the squat specifically. How does that how should someone be thinking about this when they're they hear this episode? They're like, okay, I'm finally going to start squatting, and now I want to practice in my living room without a bar. You know, what are they thinking here?

Dr. John Rusin: 19:26

It's cool because over the last 10 years, a pain-free performance specialist certification has certified over 20,000 personal trainers, strength coaches, physical therapists, and physicians in person in two-day certification courses. So, in that amount of people, you see a lot of different movement. And you not only see a lot of different movement from people, you see it from experts in movement, people that know their shit, people that have been training their entire lives, people that do this for a living. And I think when we first started running the certification, the squat was the first movement pattern that we were like, I know that there's some diversity in the squat pattern in terms of identifying somebody's most optimal squat pattern, but wow, after 10 years, the diversity that we see weekend to weekend in terms of our certification courses is absolutely wild. But this is where people tend to go wrong right off the bat. They go, okay, squat, only a barbell on your back, low bar position, and I'm gonna go feet shoulder width apart, and I'm gonna toe out slightly, I'm gonna look down at the ground, and I'm only gonna go to parallel because that's how real men squat. And it's like, no, hold on a second. You know, we've seen this with definitely a lot of the avatars that go through some of our screening and assessment protocols for the squat. So we're either trapped into, hey, I've been hurt from the squat before, therefore I'm gonna modify my movement patterns. And it usually turns into I'm too wide, big base of support, very low little range of motion, and kind of the parking break on the system. Or on the opposite direction, we see that people are like, hey, I've squatted this way for my entire life. Maybe I've developed it with a coach over time, and this is going to be a specific squat exercise for maybe a barbell sport goal. And neither of those are going to be optimal because again, we're talking about the squat pattern itself. When I say squat pattern versus squat exercise, I'm talking about somebody taking a shit into a hole in the most opportune position possible with joints stacked, centrated hips, angulation at the knees that makes sense, looking at ankle mobility, looking at spinal position and neutrality, and being able to organize the shoulders over the hips. And all of a sudden you're like, oh, okay, that is the squat pattern. But many people deactivate that squat pattern in chasing only exercises. So we tend to see that there are a couple key variables in people's squats. Yes, the stance is going to be wider or more narrow, the foot ABduction position is going to be out or in. And then we're going to see the knee is going to be forward or more vertical shin. And then we're going to see the torso angle is also going to be more forward or more erect. And then the thing that usually gets lost, because what I just described is very sagittal, plane and unidimensional. What gets lost is hey, what's underneath the skin? You know, what's underneath that glute? What is the hip type actually look like? Because that's where we tend to see the most amount of success in unlocking people's ranges of motion, getting them out of pain at their knees, at their hips, at their lower back, and being able to actually be strong and stable in their best squat position. And this is something that we go through in the pain-free performance book and also the certification course called the hip quadrant test. Essentially, we are able to type your hip in a matter of one to two minutes. You can even do it on yourself from the protocols in the book to be able to look at where you should actually be at the bottom of your squat and what the glass ceiling is for you to be able to get in this position and be able to build a skill set up so you can get into that position under load. And then the goal from there is to be able to train and maintain that at least one time per week in your programming forever. And then the other two or three times per week that you're doing a bilateral squat pattern, go into specialty, go in for some different muscular targeting, go in for some load capacity work at partial ranges. You know, the sky's the limit in terms of diversity. But what people are missing is that they're not doing the foundational pattern. And instead, they're only doing the partial pattern with specific goal sets, losing the pattern in its essence itself.

Philip Pape: 23:30

Yeah, what you talk about again in the book, and I'm happy to promote this book only because, guys, if you if you check this out, whether you get the digital or physical when it comes out, there's a lot of progression and context and building from essentially nothing up the ladder, not just with what John mentioned, range of motion and your own biomechanics, but also the types of movements and making it as accessible as possible and kind of working your way up. Like I could see myself on those different spectra where, okay, right here I'm close to the top. I'm pretty confident. Here I would probably step back a bit and work my way up. And then you also mentioned targeting different muscle groups and things like that. You know, I've had Andy Baker on the program several times. I love Andy because he he came from the starting strength world, but then has branched out and realized the importance of variety effectively, not for its own sake, but because of what you just mentioned. And we had a whole discussion about squatting and ultimately the million ways you could squat and different types of exercises. It's not really about that, right? It's achieving the right movement pattern. And look, if you have the right movement pattern and you progress over time, you're gonna get massive results, whatever squat patterns you decide to do. And a lot of that comes down to what's fun to you and what do you want to train with too, right? So anyway, I don't know where I'm going with all that, other than to say it makes sense to be methodical about this, whether it's buying your book, reaching out, going to YouTube, listening to podcasts, practicing thinking, being mindful. Let me ask you, John, when you're in the gym and you're training, do you listen to music or do you think with your thoughts? How do you, how are you mindful about your listeners?

Dr. John Rusin: 25:05

I've been uh quote unquote raw dogging my sessions lately. I know that was a popular term of like guys going on a transatlantic flight and not listening or watching anything, but that's what I've been doing. But I follow my own programming. I go inside of the Unbreakable app and I subscribe to it just like every one of my other members does. And I find liberation in that because I know I'm gonna be getting the diversity of movement patterning that I need. I get the distribution of volume throughout the patterns and the exercise selection that I need. And I also kind of have the same goals as everybody else. You know, nearing 40, being a dad that coaches baseball and basketball, you know, being a husband and a business owner, I got 60 minutes to hit it. And I know that I need to be focused. I need to be on rest periods. I have different key performance indicators, strength movements that I'm chasing, but I also want to have that feel of moving well, being mobile, and also like tapping into an athletic potential, even at my age, where I never want to lose track of athleticism and power. So, like the programming that I do right now, I stay very focused in on it because I just follow the app and I do exactly that. And then I track it. And there's a reason that that works for accountability and just staying on track because today it's super easy to go to Instagram and lose 10 minutes between a set. And it's definitely easy to program hop while you're doing an actual program just because of all of the very superficial resources that we have at our fingertips.

Philip Pape: 26:26

Yeah, so raw dogging it, following a program, making judicious use of your rest periods and not getting distracted while you lift. And I can raise my hand being guilty of that sometimes, where I'm like, okay, I'm an entrepreneur and I'm losing weights. Go, do both at the same time, you know? But uh, so okay, maybe roping back a little bit to the framing of this episode on pain, specifically where people get a lot of the pain, which is low back or shoulders or knees. Maybe, maybe looking at the low back, that comes up a lot. Low back fatigue, low back pain. And then sadly, a lot of people just have something go, something pop, have to have a surgery. I know someone, she's a power lifter. I've always thought she's she's lifted great and and she's been competitive and she had to have a microdyskectomy recently, but she also got a lot into running and rowing, which she hadn't adapted to as much as her lifting. So who knows where the issue was? People are like, what do I do? Where do they start thinking about protecting? I even like the word protecting sometimes because it sounds like too much in a shell, like safety, but basically fortifying back.

Dr. John Rusin: 27:31

Two patterns that are going to be super back intensive and also back sparing are going to be the hip hinge pattern and the single leg pattern. We call it the lung at pain-free performance. But when it comes to knee pain, when it comes to lower back pain and really shoulder pain, those are going to be the big three in our industry today. Like we have to have a good foundation of biomechanics. Like we've already talked about the foundations of finding your unique biomechanics that work for you. But I didn't add the next layer to this, which is once you find your unique biomechanics, cool, that's your central line on a spectrum. Be able to add diversity and range of motion and different muscular targeting and different rep ranges and different rep speeds and all these different methods and modalities that we can start throwing on the system strategically over time, not all in one single training week, is going to be the recipe for long-term success. But with the lower back specifically, I tend to see that people neglect the hip hinge pattern because they go, I've hurt myself deadlifting before. Well, what's a deadlift to you? Well, it's a conventional stance with a barbell on the ground, of course. And I am hoisting that thing up at all costs. And in our research at pain-free performance, we've seen that people are unable to keep a neutral zone of spinal neutrality 93% of the time when doing a conventional barbell deadlift off the ground. And this is out of a more pure hip hinge pattern. So essentially what happens to people is that they think this arbitrary exercise is the be-all end-all of everything. But what if you're one of the 93% that can't even access that bar off the ground? You're going to be doing one of two things. You're going to be using mechanics from the squat, pushing your knees forward, rounding your lower back, dumping your pelvis in order to get yourself wedged into that position. Or you're going to be going through and putting undue stress directly on the spine, being able to try to force in a hip hinge that you simply don't maybe have the range of motion or the mobility or the hip structure to be able to achieve. And there's very rarely a time where we bring somebody right from, hey, you had pain, hey, you had an injury. Let's go right back to picking something up off the ground. Many times this is the pattern that is in dire need of a rebuild because people have not just pain and injury backgrounds mechanically, but it really fucks with your mind. When you blow out Your back and it is deteriorating to your lifestyle, not just your training, but your lifestyle, you're going to think again before you go back in and train that, or you're just going to be lost and able to really take the most out of the highest yielding movement pattern that we have. But I would say about 40 to 50% of people today attempting to strength train are neglecting, if not disusing fully the hip hinge and the deadlift. And this is really problematic because we say that it is the most injurious movement pattern, but it is also the movement pattern that will protect the most. So where do we go on this yin and yang? And it's back to a strategic rebuild of trying to put the pieces together stronger and healthier and more customized to your specific needs.

Philip Pape: 30:46

The yin and yang is a great way to describe it because I sometimes have trouble communicating to people that a deadlift done wrong could hurt you, and a deadlift done right could save you, right? It's the same principle. And of course, and you called it the highest yielding movement pattern we have, which again, I I strongly I love the deadlift. Personally, I love it. I think my body is built for it way more than the squat, and that could just be an excuse not to get my squat up. But it is, it is a fun lift. When you said the, I think you said the safe zone around the line of neutrality. Uh, in your book, in your book, you have diagrams showing, for example, somebody hinged over and you have this zone with different colors, and there's that safe zone and then the buffer zone. And it's it's quite liberal. It's not like you have to be super afraid that it's just this rock solid line. And once you go out, spring your back falls apart. But you said 93% of people can naturally stay or have trouble staying.

Dr. John Rusin: 31:40

They are unable to access the bar for a conventional deadlift with spine neutrality. But the interesting thing in that section of pain-free performance about the neutral zone of stability of tension around the spine is that there are many different factors. It's not just a biomechanical model. Our zone of neutrality goes out and it comes back in based on your preparation at hand, based on your skill, based on your sleep cycles, based on your past injury history, based on your training loads and volumes, based on an exercise being a mismatch for your unique biomechanics versus something that actually is a good match for you. There are many different variables that actually affect your neutral line of tension and your zone of neutrality. And this is something that I was super proud of in the book because I haven't heard a whole lot of people talk about this before. They're so they're so black and white when it comes to spine neutral at all costs. You know, you hear the kettlebell community going perfect spine neutral while kettlebell swinging. What do you mean? There's 17 to 24 degrees of spinal flexion at the bottom of a kettlebell swing, even in perfect quote unquote execution. So, what are we really talking about here? What we want to be able to mitigate the risk away from is having rapid force, eccentric flexion of the spine under load. What that essentially means is like, hey, you're out fishing, you got a fish on the line, the line goes like this, it bends the line and it bends your hook, and all of a sudden you're like, whoa, okay, I got that fish. But you don't want to do that to your spine. That is something that when we do see injuries, they can happen in many different types of ways. But I tend to see the injuries happen specifically on the hip hinge pattern with that rapid force, eccentric moment as we're coming up out of the hole off the ground. Usually that first like two to five inches off the ground is where people tend to lose their central line of stability. They lose their spinal tension, they lose that zone of neutrality, and they end up, if they are having all those other factors line up correctly, unfortunate for them, they end up with an ache, pain, injury, flare-up, whatever you want to call it.

Philip Pape: 33:46

Okay, that's really important. So we want to avoid rapid force, eccentric flexion on the spine. Is that dumbing it down rounded back?

Dr. John Rusin: 33:54

When you're quick pulling rounding of the back. And it's usually going to be anywhere from like the lower back or the L and S spine. That is where the vast majority of these are going to happen. There's a natural fulcruming point that happens in the lower lumbar spine. And that is something that is, again, natural, but we don't want to be loading it and we don't want to be losing that line of tension, especially under load. And I think that as like injurious as that may sound, this is really easy to avoid with what we started with, with just being able to brace and breathe properly.

Philip Pape: 34:27

Brace. Yep, for sure. Yeah. So L4, L5, S1 is where you hear a lot of these injuries and issues. And if you look at the spine, you can kind of see that S shape occur around there. But you also mentioned that it moves with your adaptation, with your recovery capacity. And I get attest to this. We talk about, you know, the differences between fat loss and when you're not in a deficit, when you train of being even more attentive, not that you shouldn't always be, but that you're more susceptible to some of these things because of the fatigue and the recovery capacity. I know personally when I get distracted or I go in and I try to be, you know, do an ego lift, right? You kind of get the same thing. So the adaptation I wanted to ask about because you hear a lot of criticism or hot takes on Instagram. You know, look at this guy who can deadlift 900 pounds, but look at that rounded back. That's awful. And I'm like, okay, he's adapted to that and he's doing it and he hasn't injured himself, but is he about to snap his back? Like, what are we talking about?

Dr. John Rusin: 35:21

Taking these people that are absolute beasts, probably a world record holder has been deadlifting for 20 or 30 years at this point. There's really no huge young guns in the game. They've been able to again adapt and stress the system in a strategic way, extraordinarily strategic way, in order to again go at a specific goal for a sport, which is totally different than lifting for health and longevity. But I have personal clients that I work with that you would look at their deadlift form and be like, oh, he just hoisted 950 and he had a rounded and kyphotic spine at the thoracic. And then maybe he's probably even rounding at the lumbar spine. But the big difference between that rounding setup for these guys that are absolute anomalies, if I'm just calling it out, is that they never get pulled into deeper flexion rapidly. They maintain that flexion point and they don't have a net positive flexion point at the spine. I think that's the big differentiation factor. That, and they've done deadlifting so much volume with so much intricate technique work that they are masters of this specific skill out of this specific position. And their body has normalized it in terms of the way that they have callused their system.

Philip Pape: 36:38

Yeah. Yeah. The the speed at which the angle changes and the force gets applied is a direct function of the maximum force that's getting applied, right? F equals MA. I think about discussions I've had recently with lifting buddy of mine, how much we love pauses these days. You know, we're both in our 40s and we like pausing at the bottom of a lot of our movements. Take out the stretch reflex, only because sometimes that is where you're prone to have those high levels of force from the stretch. Not that it can't be also beneficial and you can build the resilience and adaptation, but it's it's what came to my mind.

Dr. John Rusin: 37:09

Anytime that you take a movement pattern, whatever movement pattern it is, squat bench, deadlift, whatever, and you take it to its X amount of available range of motion, and then you play and you dabble between compensatory range of motion and an authentic range of motion, you're in this intermediate range where all of a sudden you don't have the active stability neurologically or mechanically that you probably should have. And you're using compensation, whether that be momentum, whether that be using like the tendoosseous junctions to be like rebound and ramp up out of a squat. Whatever it may be, those are things that maybe not line up well for your long-term health. You know, people are always like, oh, well, what do you think about the butt wink in a squat? Like, I hate it. Like if your goal is to feel awesome and just like be jacked at 45, like probably the butt wink has no place in your programming. But if you're gonna go to the CrossFit games at 45 and try to compete for a medal, like that's a totally different story. So there's always two sides of the coin, but I do believe that anytime that we can be a master of our movement and then we can dominate a movement and then diversify that movement little by little to be able to add variance. And that is gonna be a more well-rounded spectrum of the human movement system.

Philip Pape: 38:22

For sure. Yeah, no, I I love that. And you also mentioned the lunge when we talk about the hip and shoulders and the that pillar. And it's funny because I just I just started a new cycle of a program that does have walking lunges in there, which I like, but I also they also have one and a half walking lunges, which I like quad burners, right? You go go down, go down, come up halfway. You know what it is. Just explain for the listener. Go all the way down, come up halfway, go back down. So you've just like use the lengthened position without relieving much tension, and then come back up into the walk. And you'll find you can't do nearly as many of those as the full as the single walks. But where does the where does the lunge fit in here? Because it is one of your six.

Dr. John Rusin: 38:59

The lunge is the most detrained. You know, the hip hinge, nobody wants to do. Yeah. Ignore our ignore. Uh Dave Tate, an ex-client of mine and a mentor of mine, said it best when I was working with him at Elite FTS. He goes, John, this sucks. I had him doing split squats. He goes, This sucks because it's half the amount of weight and it's twice as hard. And I'm like, man, you just said it. You just said it. And that line is right in the book, too. But when it comes to the lunge, I think it's misunderstood and it's also neglected because it's going to be hard every single time. Uh, unilateral-based lower body work is going to be very demanding in terms of the muscular system, the stabilization system, the neurological system, and the sympathetic system is really going to be heightened up because the balance component to it. But I think just from the mechanics alone, it differentiates itself. It's not just a squat on one leg. It's not just a hip hinge on one leg. It actually is its own distinct pattern. So the lunge pattern has all the best properties from the squat, which is associated with a positive shin angle, a knee forward uh position, and be able to have quadricep dominance. And then also it's a hip hinge at the hips that integrates hamstrings and glutes and lower back. So we actually have maximal amount of load capacity in single leg with many of these patterns, like the Bulgarian split squat, walking lunges, that feel natural to the body as well, because when we function on single leg, that is where we spend 85 plus percent of our movement lives on. You know, we're not functioning in our daily life doing bilateral positions at the squat or at the hinge. We are definitely maneuvering in asymmetrical lower body stances. So this is one that I tend to put the most amount of volume distribution in for almost everybody I'm working with. Probably the highest with athletes, the second highest with like the 35, 40 plus population, and then the third highest amongst people that want to get super strong unconventionally, usually coming from more of a barbell background. But usually with a lower body day, we're distributing anywhere from 50 to 70% of total volume in asymmetrical lower body stances, which is essentially our lunch pattern from pain-free performance.

Philip Pape: 41:12

Okay, yeah. And that is definitely higher than the traditional most people would see. Oh, yeah. Um, and it sounds brutal, but I get it because reverse lunges, I don't know if you put step-ups in there, but to me, those are hard too. And, you know, what split squats, we all there's there's memes galore about split squats, you know, being the worst of the worst, right? But again, we have to change our mindset and think like how beneficial that is. I mean, you mentioned stability and balance and everything. It's like raise your hand if you're listening and you've tried a walking lunge and you like, you know, are just trying to stay up straight, let alone with a bar on your back, if you're not doing dumbbells. So yeah, I thought that was interesting because a lot of people reduce the movement patterns to exclude that. And I think it I I am coming around to your way of thinking here. I think it's really cool.

Dr. John Rusin: 41:56

Yeah, like just going over the years, chasing like we we call it functional meat head. Functional meat head is we're gonna take some like easy-ish exercise, something that you'd see in physical therapy, and we're gonna push it to the absolute limits. The chase over the last like five years or so has been Bulgarian split squat five RMs. How heavy could you possibly go out of different loading positions? I've gotten it to the 150s in each hand for five reps down to the side, and I've also goblet Bulgarian split squat 190 pounds in front of the body for five reps. So when you do things like that, you're like, man, that doesn't sound fun. But you learn a lot about the body's natural stability points and where we can actually maximize strength recruitment from in those particular patterns. Knee forward position plus the hip hinge is gonna be strong, it's gonna be stable, and it's also gonna be able to be able to mitigate risk of knee pain long term because we get into the deep knee flexion, and it's gonna be able to spare the spine because we are on an asymmetrical stance at the lower body, and essentially our pelvis can rotate in opposite directions, and the stability factor is far different than in the bilateral counterpart. So when you think about doing stuff like that, you're like, yeah, this is where this pattern makes sense. If you're just setting up for a Bulgarian split squat for a set of five with a 10-pound dumbbell, and you're like, oh, this seems easy. I can keep a vertical shin, I can put my knee forward, I can do whatever I want. That's fine. But when you actually push things to absolute maximal load or maximal challenge, your body will find its natural, natural writing mechanism, put you in a strong and stable position. And the thing I want people to take away from that statement is where you are most stable is probably where you're gonna be the strongest. And where you are the most stable and the strongest is where you're likely to be the safest.

Philip Pape: 43:38

Right. Got it. Okay. Yeah. And so again, we have to train hard, is also part of the uh part of the equation. And that was a good segue to knee pain because you mentioned the knee flexion and how this supports the knee. We talked about Pateller, you know, the tracking and the knees forward. There's a lot of, I'll call it mythology around that because people will reduce the, you know, form check to, oh, your knee's traveling too far forward, not thinking about the system. So, what are your thoughts on that? And in general, knee pain, maybe the use of knee sleeves, like the whole ball of wax.

Dr. John Rusin: 44:08

One of the biggest mistakes that people will make if they have that generalized chronic front-sided knee pain is that all of a sudden they'll go and Google it and they'll be like, oh, I need a knees over toes program. I need to be forcing my knee forward in the most biomechanically disadvantageous position possible while it's hot, while it's hurting. And sissy squats. Yeah, yeah, sissy squats. Uh, there's a bunch of different exercise variants with that. But that's the opposite thing of what we would recommend that pain-free performance. If you are dealing with hot knee issues, like, hey, this thing actively hurts right now and it's been kicking my ass for a number of weeks, if not months. That's the time where we pull back and we actually back down into some simple biomechanics. If we can manage where the knee is relative to the ankle, that is going to take the distribution of our loading through our body and it's going to put it onto different key musculature into different patterns in different ways. So the more vertical we can keep the shim, the more the posterior chain is going to be involved. Hamstrings and glutes, if we can get stronger at both of those places, that is going to be putting us in a nice position long term to have pain-free knees. But we don't want to just stay there because I think many times people just end up staying there. Their squats are vertical shins, their lunges are vertical shins, everything that they're doing is vertical shins. And guess what? When we walk, we don't have a vertical shin. When we run, when we sprint, when we change the direction and being an athlete, there is never a vertical shin. There's a knee forward position and there's a dominancy of being on the toes versus the heels. And that's something that we need to grade and scale back into. But naturally, we need to be moving back into a more knees over toes position in a graded and concentrated way, maybe week by week, program by program, and being able to have access to that because long term, that is going to be huge. But going back to just like being able to get your knees healthy, managing that knees over toes position is going to be huge. Strengthening the posterior chain that actually supports the stable line of tension from the knee is going to be huge. So hamstring work, ton. I see that super neglected. And then gluten, hamstring work together. That posterior chain emphasis is going to be one of the best things that we can do for our knees. Once we do that, then we can start to scale some of the stress back in with novel positions of the knee actually translating forward.

Jerry: 46:27

Hey, you just wanted to give a shout out to Phillip. I personally worked with Phillip for about eight months, and I lost a total of 33 pounds of scale weight and about five inches off my waist. Two things I really enjoy about working with Philip is number one, he's really taken the time to develop uh a deep expertise in nutrition and also resistance training. So he has that depth if you want to go deep on the Yes with Philip. But if also if you want to just kind of get some instruction and more practical advice and a plan on what you need to do, he can pull back and communicate at that level. Also, he is a lifter himself, so he's very familiar with the performance and body composition goals that most lifters have. And also, Philip is trained in engineering, so he has some very efficient systems set up to make the coaching experience very easy and very efficient. And you can really track your results and you will have real data when you're done working with Philip and also have access to some tools likely that you can continue to use. If all that sounds interesting to you, Philip, like all good coaches, has a ton of free information out there and really encourage you to see if he may be able to help you out. So thanks again, Philip.

Philip Pape: 47:40

Cool. Yeah, gluten hamstring work. Everyone loves that, especially the ladies. Hamstring work is is definitely fun because there's there's ways to isolate it both with extension and flexion. And I know I've been doing length and partial RDLs lately, and those can be brutal because you can some people can overload them, some people actually find them heavy, heavier. It's kind of kind of interesting how that works between individuals. What are your favorite hamstring movements?

Dr. John Rusin: 48:02

RDL is gonna always gonna be the king. I would argue that the RDL, if you're to do one exercise for the rest of your life, probably has the highest yield. You get that stretch on the hams, you get the flex on the glutes at the top, you're able to have mobile full range of motion down through the posterior chain, and you're able to have a connectivity through your upper body. Like it is awesome. And it also gives us the ability to train the core and the spinal position at an isometric. Like it is a super high yield. But I'm a big fan of hamstring isolation work as well. Like, not always going to be jumping into the machines doing a machine circuit like it's global gym. But when you go to seated and line hamstring curl machines, those are two of the only machines that I will routinely be able to program in because there's really nothing else like them in terms of open chain mechanics at the hamstrings that will be far different in terms of the mechanics and the properties of the joints and the stabilization patterns than standing on two feet and doing something like an RDL or a split squat with a hinge emphasis or something that lengthens out the hamstrings. But really, we like to also have diversity in terms of our tool sets there. Anytime that we can get sliders out, anytime that we can get suspension, bandwork, that is gonna be huge for hamstrings. And remember, the hamstrings aren't just one muscle. The hamstrings are hamstrings, and then we have adductor groups of the hamstrings as well. So anytime that we can get out into the lateral planes of motion, that is gonna act for hamstring stabilization at the hip down into the knee even more. So you really can't go wrong having big, strong, meaty hamstrings because they're not only aesthetically pleasing, but they are so functional for almost every goal, whether it be trying to mitigate low back pain, being able to bring up your glute hypertrophy, or just protect your knees long term.

Philip Pape: 49:48

And they make your legs look good. Uh, let me tell you, because it's like the triceps of the legs, right? You know, people think it's the biceps, it's the triceps that make your arms look big. But uh no, that it's funny you mentioned the sliders and stuff. Because I, again, I used to do CrossFit and they had the rollers and stuff. My my daughter's doing a little physical therapy for her. She dislocated her knee not long ago. And they're like, Dad, have you ever heard of sitting in a chair and pulling with your legs? I'm like, Yeah, I bet that hurt that you feel that in hamstrings, don't you? Because, you know, it's just even doing that, it's you can see how weak you are sometimes when you do those. Uh, that movement, which is more like the leg curl type movement. I know we're getting low on time. I did want to talk about the shoulders, honestly, because I personally have had rotator cuff surgery. There's probably a lot of things I could have done different myself over the years. I am where I am, but it's a very epidemic thing among lifters who are older, bar none. I mean, shoulder issues all over the place. Some people avoid overhead pressing altogether. Some people are in, you know, shortened range of motions, using the pausing, using having to vary up their grip and width and all this. Um, trust me, I know. So when it comes to the shoulder pain, are there, again, movement pattern issues that people are doing too much? Or is it trying to go too hard on overhead doing it the wrong way? Like, where does all this come from?

Dr. John Rusin: 51:00

We have an obsession with the mirrored muscles. I think it's as simple as that. The mirror muscles are gonna be your abs, they're gonna be your biceps, and of course, the chest. And if you're not training chest on Monday, are you really strain training? And as funny and as stupid as that sounds, if you go in and watch any single gym across the world as I've been to, you're gonna see that the bench press is the number one exercise for every male in that gym on any given day. And all of a sudden, you go years, if not decades, of overtraining the push and neglecting the backside of the body with the pull pattern. And we tend to run into some problems, especially now because we are so glued to handheld technology with our phones, we're on our computers, we're sedentary more than ever before. And we have a bigger need to actually reverse these sedentary postures with the pull patterns that put us into extension, external rotation, and AB duction at the shoulders. And this is the opposite of what most people are training. One of the first things that I do with clients is that I audit their volumes. I audit their volumes across squat hinge, lunge, push, pull, and carry patterns. And when it comes to the upper body pushes and pulls, if I see anything that's under like a two to one ratio between pull and push, I'm like, yeah, that's the first thing that we're gonna go after here is we're gonna redistribute the volume to put more volume on the backside of the body in terms of rowing and pull downs and push-ups and direct lat work. And then we're going to probably keep the volume about the same or pull it back a little bit in terms of your push pattern. And the push pattern is gonna be more diversified than just the barbell bench press on a flat or if you're functional, going up to a 45 degree angle. And that tends to really be humbling for most people because they go, oh shit, you know, I need more face pulls, I need more rows, I need more unilateral work in the pull pattern. And I need to be able to diversify away from just the barbell. I love barbell bench pressing, and I would say 60 to 70% of my clients will barbell bench press. But we also are training many different uh ways in terms of landmine pressing and dumbbell pressing and working with bands and having kettlebells. And there's so many different ways to be able to train the push pattern. And the easiest one is the most accessible to everybody, is simply doing push-ups in a closed chain, getting your hands on the ground and allowing your shoulder blades to actually start moving again. That is going to most likely be the pattern where we start the rebuild process from if you're dealing with shoulder pain and past injuries.

Philip Pape: 53:26

So much wisdom here, guys, if you're listening. I mean, I'm just like smiling inside, John, because a lot of what you're saying, I've had to learn through hard knocks. And I, you know, I'm not saying I know everything you know, but it just resonates so hard with me because for me personally, for anyone listening who's been following my shoulder rehab journey, you know, things things got kind of acted up about a year after my surgery and things started to take a turn with bursitis and issues like that. And I'm still working through, but a lot of the advice I got and talking to guys like you, not you, but guys like you, were trying to do more pulling movements and try to really strengthen the back part of the upper body. And, you know, just today I was doing neutral grip pull downs and T-bar rows, and like I'm really getting into more of that. I like that two to one ratio because it's a nice prescriptive way to think about it, where you, you know, if you're doing six movements, then four of them should be pulls rather than pushes. And what are what are your thoughts on like barbell rows and yeah, let's, you know, movements like that that have other translation to the posterior. Do you find them even more effective? Or can they be kind of limiting because of the weight? Like, what are your thoughts?

Dr. John Rusin: 54:32

I program almost everything. I do not program traditional barbell bent over rows.

Philip Pape: 54:37

I saw that in your book. I saw that in your book. I wanted to ask about it.

Dr. John Rusin: 54:39

One of the reasons that I don't is not that I think everyone's gonna be injured first time that they do it. That's not the way the body works. But I do think that it's just not the best way in order to train the back directly. When we're thinking about holding a hip hinge, we just mentioned that a lot of people have trouble hip hinging in general, but now I'm gonna ask you to hold it for 30 to 60 seconds in a hard isometric and not give up the position whatsoever. And then I'm gonna put your hands in a fixed position on a barbell in an arbitrary distance apart, and I'm not gonna allow natural rotation to happen at the hands nor the shoulders. And then I'm gonna put it into a bilateral stance that is gonna be dependent on your lower back position and you staying upright. And then I'm gonna put max load on because anytime we see a barbell, it's like, how much can we load up on this thing? And many times it just turns into a sloppy movement, it turns into half rep ranges of motion, a lot of momentum being used, a lot of the recruitments happening at the lower back versus the musculature of the upper back and the lats where we really want to target. And it's something that there's just like so many other awesome variations that we could possibly go into for muscle, for strength, for resilience building of positions, that it just doesn't make a whole lot of sense for me. I will absolutely use positions and I will use different variances of bent over rows, whether it be single arm, whether it be supported, whether it be chest supported. There's a lot of different ways to do it. But the standard barbell bent over row, I know this seems like sacrilegious to many people listening, but that's just not a high risk-to-reward exercise for a vast majority of people for shoulder health and for lower back health.

Philip Pape: 56:18

Yeah, I wanted to ask because I saw that in there and I don't totally disagree. I mean, I've spent years trying to follow people like Alex Bromley, for example, who takes it very seriously on how to do the position and making sure you're up above the ground so that you could properly get in the form and everything. And then guys who, you know, are like, Loyal, let's use the easy car, let's easy bar, let's increase our angle and let's do power versions of that so that you go to a dead stop. There's lots of things. And maybe there are some other benefits like the isometrics, but you get that from deadlifting as well. So I hear you, man. And I personally have really started to enjoy like T-bar rows and cable rows and things like that, and really feeling it hit those spots more directly. But teach his own, obviously, if you can progress safely and do it and you want to do it, we're not saying not to. As we wrap up, and we're a couple minutes past, apologize. Is there anything else you wish I had asked? I know there's a lot we didn't get to, but in this context of just pain-free with those key joints, anything we didn't cover that's on your mind?

Dr. John Rusin: 57:16

I think that as we get older and as we have more mileage on our system, we will all be pushed to be able to evolve and change so we can continue to do what we love to do. And you said something that really resonated with me. It was like, yeah, I had to gain this wisdom because I had shoulder pain. I had to go into surgery, I had all these injuries over the years, but I love training and clearly we do. But I think pain-free performance is a 600-page resource on things that I have made mistakes with, things that I've been mentored by, and the system that you could simply run to plug and play a pain-free performance model that simply keeps you healthy and works for your body uniquely. We don't have to give up what we love to do. I would never tell anyone that. Leave that to the doctors and the poor physical therapists out there. What we want to do is be able to line you up to do what you want to do forever, but it does take a little bit more concentrated work and a smarter system to achieve that.

Philip Pape: 58:09

A smarter system to do what you love to do forever. Love it, John. All right. On that note, where do you want people to find you besides? I'm going to promote it for you again. Pain free performance, the book. I think it's still available for pre-order because it doesn't come out till, well, around when this episode comes out. So look look it up. We'll include the link to that. Uh, any anything else where you want them to reach you, John?

Dr. John Rusin: 58:28

Any social media is at Dr. John Russin on Instagram, on Facebook, also on YouTube. And you can check out our websites over at painfree training.com and also drjonrusson.com.

Philip Pape: 58:41

All right, we'll include those links and uh the handles in the show notes. Thank you, Dr. John Russin. It's been a pleasure. Really, this was even better than I expected. I expected a great conversation, but we really covered a lot of unique, helpful areas for the listener, and uh, they're gonna love it. Take home some good action from this. So thank you so much, John.

Dr. John Rusin: 58:57

Thank you so much for having me. This was fun.

7 Tips to Save 200 Hours in the Gym (Without Losing Muscle) | Ep 390

Join Physique University and get the IGNITE 4-Day Time-Saving Training Template (use code FREEPLAN for a custom nutrition plan when you join)

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Can you cut your gym time by 40 to 50% while still training effectively to build strength and muscle?

Learn 7 research-backed strategies to help you save tons of time with your workouts to reclaim up to 200 hours a year without sacrificing results.

Timestamps:

0:00 - Too much time in the gym?
4:52 - Tip 1: Cut exercise bloat
7:54 - Tip 2: Prioritize compound lifts
10:03 - Tip 3: Antagonist supersets
12:50 - Tip 4: Fewer sets, harder effort
17:42 - Tip 5: Increase training density
21:42 - Tip 6: Rest pause and drop sets
25:16 - Tip 7: Smarter warm-ups
28:10 - The math behind saving up to 200 hours a year
30:14 - Consistency, adherence, and enjoyment

7 Tips to Save 200 Hours in the Gym (Without Losing Muscle)

If you’re spending five to seven hours a week in the gym and still not seeing the results you want, you’re not alone. Most lifters waste a huge amount of time on redundant exercises, excessive volume, and recovery practices that don’t actually improve performance. In this episode, Philip shows you how to engineer your training for maximum stimulus per minute—saving up to 200 hours per year without losing a single ounce of muscle.

These seven strategies are backed by research and designed for lifters who want efficient, evidence-based programming that fits real life.

1. Cut the Exercise Bloat

Most programs online are overloaded—ten or more exercises per session, often targeting the same muscles. You don’t need that.

• Focus on movement patterns, not body parts: squat, hinge, push, pull, lunge, carry.

• Choose 4–6 lifts per session that hit multiple muscles at once.

• Replace leg press + leg extension + leg curl with just a squat and RDL for full lower-body coverage.

Research shows hypertrophy is identical when total volume is equated, even if you use half the number of movements. Simplifying your routine can easily reclaim 30–40 minutes per session.

2. Prioritize Compound Lifts

Build your program around big, multi-joint movements—squats, deadlifts, bench presses, overhead presses, rows, and pull-ups.

• They recruit more muscle per rep.

• They improve systemic work capacity and movement efficiency.

• They make isolation work optional, not mandatory.

Do compounds first when you’re fresh, then add isolation only if you have time or specific weak points to target.

3. Use Antagonist or Non-Competing Supersets

Supersets save time by pairing two movements that don’t interfere with each other—like bench press with rows, or squats with calf raises.

• You rest one muscle group while training another.

• You maintain performance while cutting total rest by up to 40%.

• You keep intensity high without turning it into cardio.

Avoid pairing heavy lifts that tax the same stabilizers (like squats and deadlifts). Think of it as efficiency, not exhaustion.

4. Reduce Sets but Train Closer to Failure

Two hard sets near failure stimulate nearly the same growth as four or five easy sets.

• Aim for 1–3 reps in reserve (RIR) on working sets.

• Use the top set + back-off set approach: one heavy set of 4–6 reps, then one lighter set of 8–10.

• Focus on effort, not volume.

You’ll gain strength, save 20 minutes per session, and recover better between workouts. As Philip says, “Make every set count.”

5. Increase Training Density

Training density is work per unit of time. Raise it intelligently:

• Shorten rest on accessories to 60–90 seconds.

• Walk or stretch between sets instead of scrolling your phone.

• Group 2–3 non-competing exercises together if logistics allow (e.g., leg press → leg curl → calf raises).

You’ll maintain output while compressing total session time from 75–90 minutes down to 45–60.

6. Use Rest-Pause, Drop Sets, or Myo Reps

These intensity techniques condense effective reps into less time:

• Rest-pause: 1 set near failure, rest 15–30 sec, then repeat twice.

• Drop sets: Lower weight by 20–30% after failure and continue immediately.

• Myo reps: Mini-sets of 3–5 reps with short rests.

Use these sparingly for isolation work like curls or lateral raises—not your big barbell lifts. Expect another 10–15 minutes saved per workout.

7. Streamline Your Warm-Up

Most people waste 20–30 minutes on mobility drills and foam rolling that don’t translate to performance.

• Spend 5–10 minutes max raising core temperature and moving dynamically.

• Use ramp-up sets to prepare for working sets: start light, add weight, drop reps each time until you hit your working load.

• Example: 95x5 → 135x3 → 185x2 → 225x1, then begin your work sets.

Warm up the movement, not the muscle.

The Time Math

If you currently train 6–7 hours weekly, implementing these changes can cut your training time nearly in half while keeping 90–95% of your gains. That’s 150–200 hours saved per year—the equivalent of four full work weeks—all while maintaining or even improving strength, muscle, and recovery.

And here’s the real kicker: shorter, smarter workouts improve consistency. When lifting fits your schedule, you actually show up more often, enjoy training again, and see better long-term results.

Takeaways

Efficiency isn’t doing less—it’s doing what matters most.

• Fewer lifts, done harder.

• Smarter programming, not more volume.

• Shorter sessions, better adherence.

If you want a done-for-you program built around these principles, check out the Ignite training template inside Physique University. It’s a four-day upper/lower split that maximizes hypertrophy, minimizes wasted time, and delivers real results.

Visit witsandweights.com/physique to get started.

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Get notified of new episodes. Listen on Apple, Spotify, or all other platforms.

Then hit “Follow” and you’re good to go!

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Transcript

Philip Pape: 0:01

If you're spending five, six, even seven hours a week in the gym trying to build muscle and lose fat, and you're starting to wonder if there is a smarter way to get the same results without sacrificing so much time away from work, family, and everything else you're trying to prioritize, this episode is for you. I'm gonna show you seven evidence-based strategies to cut your training time by 40 to 50% while maintaining or even improving your strength and hypertrophy gains. We're talking about as much as 150 to 200 hours back in your pocket every year. And the best part is you'll learn why more time in the gym doesn't equal better results. It is time to engineer your training for maximum stimulus per minute. Welcome to Wits and Weights, the show that helps you build a strong, healthy physique using evidence, engineering, and efficiency. I'm your host, Philip Cape, and today we're gonna tackle a problem that affects just about every lifter I work with, and that is spending way too much time in the gym for the results that you're getting. Now, you might have heard that building muscle requires a certain amount of volume, and oftentimes more is better, depending on where you're starting from. And for many people, this translates to, oh, I need to be in the gym for 90-minute sessions or potentially more, or four, five, six days in the gym. I know people who like to go to the gym every day of the week. And if you're not doing that, are you working hard enough to get the results you want? But in my opinion, that approach is not only inefficient, and I'm all about inefficiency or efficiency, it's often counterproductive. Many things in life, you do more, you do get more results. But when it comes to your body and your recovery, uh, there is this fine balance. And so today we're gonna break down seven time-saving strategies backed by research, things that I really love that actually work. There are a lot of ways to save time in the gym, but these are the big hitters. And they're not really shortcuts, they're not hacks, they're just taking the principles and saying, okay, how can I do this intelligently to get the maximum stimulus, but minimize time, especially wasted time. And by the end of the episode, you'll know how to restructure your training to save as much as two to four hours every single week. Of course, it depends on where you're starting. And the goal is to still make all the progress you want to make. This is not like just the bare minimum I'm talking about. This is still making really, really good progress. Let's say 90, 95% of the results you could possibly get, but but still saving time. And for some of you, it's actually gonna improve your results because you're actually doing too much. All right, so let's just jump right into it and talk about the time problem, right? The the typical lifter, if you're listening, you're probably training three to six days a week. But many of you, as you've gotten into the intermediate, maybe advanced stages, you've gone to four-day splits, maybe a five-day power building program, maybe a six-day body part split. I've I've seen the whole gamut. And if you're doing fewer days a week, they're probably 75 to 90 minutes a session. If you're a new lifter, if you've never lifted before and you're listening to this podcast, you're like, oh, that sounds like a lot. And it's it is a lot for a beginner. I think a beginner can get away with, you know, 30 to 45 minutes three days a week, period. Um, and right there off the bat, if you're doing way more than that as a beginner, we can address that with today's episode. But a lot of you then start to creep up, you do more and more, you increase the volume, and all of a sudden you're training maybe six, seven, eight hours a week when you add it all up in the gym, and then you have your commute time, and then you have your warmups and rest time, all that stuff kind of adds into that, right? And there is a point of diminishing returns. And when I look at people's training logs, I see either redundant exercises that target the same muscles and they can just kind of strip those down. I see uh wasted time or not necessarily see wasted time. I know people are wasting time like scrolling on their phones, for example. I see way too much warm-up that's not necessary. I see a lot of extra accessory or isolation work that could be eliminated or combined with other movements. I see too many sets, like I see a lot of things. And I think it comes from maybe a misunderstanding of what drives muscle growth, but also just a lack of clarity and confidence of really what to do and like what programs are appropriate for them, or putting together their own program that doesn't make sense. We think of training volume, volume definitely matters. It definitely matters, but beyond a threshold, more volume doesn't mean more growth, and everyone responds differently. So there's a sweet spot where you get that maximum stimulus with a minimum time, kind of like a curve, and we want to find that point for you. Because unless you have the extra time or you're retired or you're a competitor or something like that, and you want to spend the extra time to get that little extra boost in optimization, you know, that this episode's not for you if that's the case. We're actually talking about going the other direction and saving time. So, my first strategy of the seven is to just cut the number of exercises you're doing per session. And we're gonna map this out. I think one of the biggest time waste wasters is bloat in exercise selection. And I see it online. If you go to, if you just Google like strength training programs, you'll see these either full body or body part split programs that have like nine, 10, 11, sometimes 12 exercises, which is insane in my opinion. Again, unless you're Arnold doing two days for two hours a session and you're enhanced, you know. Uh, and I'll see like lots of overlapping things, you know, leg press, leg extension, leg curl, calf raises, flat bench, incline, decline, cable flies, pec deck, right? And a lot of redundancy, and it ends up eating up like an extra half hour than you probably need for the benefit. I like I want you to think of this in terms of coverage and efficiency with the movements, meaning the more you can do movement patterns and incorporate more muscles, whether it's targeted directly or indirectly, the more efficient you're gonna be and get to do fewer exercises to get the same result. So the first principle here is thinking of movement patterns, not muscle isolation or muscle groups. Even though I talk about that a lot in the context of hypertrophy, the first principle we need to start from is the movement patterns, the squatting, hinging, pushing, pulling, lunging, carrying, right? The movement patterns. And when you structure training around those instead of muscle groups, you're gonna recruit more total muscle mass per exercise. Eliminate redundancy. You're gonna find out that it's pretty hard on your body, such that you need to make some trade-offs elsewhere, and still you're gonna get the result, right? So instead of, especially if you're a beginner, but instead of like leg press, leg extension, leg curl, calf phrase, you can do a squat variation and an RDL, for example. Squat variation, RDL. That's gonna hit your quads, your glutes, your core, your upper back, a whole bunch of stuff. The RDL is probably the best thing to hammer the hamstrings, the glutes, the lower back, two exercises right there, complete lower body coverage and other muscles as well. And there's a lot of overlap. That's just that's just one example, right? All the big movements have a similar result. And so when you equate weekly volume, we actually find there is no difference in a hypertrophy as well, muscle size, when you spread sets across 10 exercises versus five exercises, as long as the five are efficiently chosen. But that could save you right there 30 to 40 minutes. So I really want you to look at the programs you're following. And if they're these really long packed in programs with a ton of movements, you're gonna save a lot of time by consolidating those. Thinking of the big movement patterns, the compound lifts. Very important, right? And what was the other thing there? Oh, and it's gonna save you time because if you're going to a commercial gym, you don't have to worry about fighting for all those machines and worrying about their availability. So that leads me to strategy number two, which is gonna sound similar, but it's it's different in its own way. And that is to prioritize compound movements specifically. Right. So the first the first strategy was really about consolidating the exercises. The second one is prioritizing compound lifts, squats, bench press, overhead, deadlifts, rows, pull-ups, actually, rows. I prefer pull-ups to rows for newer lifters, but rows can get in there later on. Not just uh barbell rows, but T-bar rows and chest supported and all that. Um, but anyway, these are efficient because they hit multiple muscles, muscle groups, as I mentioned already, and they produce greater total muscle activation per rep, and they improve your work capacity and your tolerance for systemic fatigue as well, which is going to translate to your overall fitness level, your cardio capacity, and your ability to lift harder and more with more quality with the accessory and isolation work. Right? Just think about when you bench press, you're recruiting your chest, your shoulders, your triceps, your lats, your core, and you can change the grip and the width and target different things more effectively, like your triceps with a close grip. You know, compare that to like a chest fly. I mean, I I love a chest fly as much as the next guy, um, especially when it's done bottom to top, and you really, you know, tighten that uh contraction, right? We're thinking of bodybuilding, but not if you're not doing bigger pressing movements. And it doesn't have to be a bench press with a barbell, it could be with dumbbells, it could be an incline, you know, there's lots of compound lifts. So, and it doesn't mean you never do isolation work. It means you prioritize compounds first, build your program around that, then add isolation. And that is also gonna save you a lot of time. So you're consolidating your lifts and then you're prioritizing the compound movements and doing them first, most likely, most likely doing them first, okay, to get high effectiveness. All right, strategy number three is to use antagonist or non-competing supersets. I do love supersets these days. I used to kind of poo-poo them and file them under circuit training, but that's because I came from a world of either CrossFit or the gym machines where you're doing five exercises in a circuit and it's kind of random and you know rest periods and things like that. I think done correctly, supersets can still maintain your performance, but cut a lot of time because you're cutting rest time. And we know in the research, there's been some recent meta-analysis and season studies that show comparable results, whether you're using supersets or not, but you actually save a lot of time. And the best way to do this is to pair exercises that don't compete for the same muscles or the same, let's say, stabilizer groups, like benching and rowing. That's that's pushing, pushing and pulling, or uh squats and I don't know, calf raises, let's say. Let's say, and that came to mind because I was thinking if you have a squat safety bar and you're doing a version of a front squat, let's say with a squat safety bar, and then you can immediately go into calf raises. You can do the same thing with a leg press machine and calf raises, right? Things like that. Um, pull-ups and leg curls. Like if you're doing a full body day, doing upper body and lower body, those are definitely non-competing muscles. But even biceps and triceps, those are antagonists, right? Because while one thing is resting, the other muscles are recovered, ready to go, all out. You might need to take, say, 20, 30 seconds. You don't have to do it immediately. This is the point isn't to get your heart rate up, although there is that side benefit. The point really is to just cut time, right? And you're using the rest time now productively in between, you don't have to have as long rest time. But the effective rest period between the same exercise still ends up being longer because you're doing something else in between. So again, the research shows that antagonist supersets do maintain strength and hypertrophy and cut rest time by about 40%. So if you did that for your whole workout, which I'm not necessarily recommending, but let's say you did, a 60-minute workout would be as short as, say, 35 minutes, same results. Now, I think a mistake people make here is pairing exercises that are competing with the same muscle groups. Like, don't do squats and deadlifts as supersets. Don't do, you know, overhead press and well, I was gonna say overhead press and pull-ups. Um, I don't know. You could try those, but you get what I'm saying. Like, don't the second exercise is going to suffer quite a bit. And you'll know what, you'll know what that is when you feel it. So it's okay to experiment. Now, you might want to do that on purpose to fatigue the muscles. That's a different strategy. That's not a time-saving maintained performance strategy. That's more of a bodybuilding like fatigue, you know, get closer to failure more quickly strategy, which is perfectly viable, but it's not really about saving time per se. So I would, if you do supersets, I would still have some rest period in there, like 30 to 60 seconds, so that your output, your reps are as effective as possible and you can, you know, bang them out. So this could save you, like I said, 20 to 30 minutes a session. All right, strategy number four is to reduce the number of sets. And I'm gonna combine this with another strategy, and that's training closer to failure, which you should be doing anyway, but I'm gonna explain why. Most of your muscle growth is going to occur when you have that high level of mechanical tension. Now, there's a huge debate raging right now about whether anything beyond mechanical tension causes hypertrophy. Like, does the metabolic stress cause hypertrophy? And there's some camps that are like, absolutely not, it's all about mechanical tension. And others say that, well, we see studies that show when you have higher metabolic stress, like a higher pump, you know, you see greater hypertrophy. And you know what? They're probably both right to an extent. It probably comes down to the first principle of the mechanical tension. Anyway, there's probably a lot of overlap or correlation, is what I'm saying. And honestly, you don't have to worry about it. All you have to, all you can control is how hard you train and getting close to failure. Now, how close depends on the lift, the safety of the whole setup, what your goals are. But everything beyond that is gonna contribute diminishing return, diminishing returns. And what I mean by on that is beyond that is I'd rather you do two really hard sets close to failure than three, four, or five, or you're half-assing it, or you're not getting close to failure, right? That that's where we're gonna save time. Because we do see similar hypertrophy with, let's say, two or three hard sets compared to four or five. There's like this fine balance. And there are arguments, you know, some people say, look, getting that third set in, if you are training really hard and you have the capacity, you're eating enough, you're sleeping enough, does give you that little extra volume that can help. Sure. But if we're trying to save time, is it worth it? Is the trade-off worth it? So by hard sets, we are mean, we are talking about, I'm gonna say uh one to three reps shy of failure, reps in reserve, also called seven to nine RPE, uh rated perceived exertion, right? I mean, some people would argue and go as far as four reps from failure, but if we're only gonna do two sets, I want you to get, you know, in that really stressful regime, stressful in a good way, as in mechanical tension, close to failure. So a lot of people are doing workout programs that have like four or five sets sometimes, right? And then, and that's not a bad thing necessarily, but then they're not really pushing the first three sets, and only the last two are challenging. And so then the first three are effectively becoming warm-up sets. Well, you should already be warming up anyway with a few sets, unless you're already warmed up, and then go after it really hard with the working sets. And so if you could do two or three sets instead of three or four, that's gonna save time, obviously, right? As long as you make it count. And I really love the two set idea in what's called top set back off set. I originally learned this from my coach Andy Baker. In fact, he was on the podcast talking about exactly this thing. We did an episode on bodybuilding a while back. Uh, but I've seen others use Jeffrey Verdi, Jeffrey Verity Schofield has uh a good program that uses that structure. And I've seen it done with lots of different bodybuilders. And all it is is, you know, you you warm up and then you do your working weight at some rep range, let's say four to six for one set, and then you drop the weight, say 10 or 15%, and perform one more high effort set, probably at a lower rep range or a higher rep range, if that makes sense. So your first set might be four to six, you drop the weight 10 to 15 percent, your second set might be eight to 10. That's just an example, right? And doing those two sets really hard not only covers the two different rep ranges, but also reduces the volume, but still gets you some good work and saves time. And this might save 15, 20, 25 minutes a session if you do if you normally have all three sets and now you do all two sets. And you know what? Try it out. See if your results don't change or even improve because you're training with maybe even more intensity now, because you're so focused on getting those two sets to mean something, and you're not getting as much systemic fatigue. So it could be a win-win. All right, so that's the fourth strategy. All right, if you're if you're thinking, like, how do I structure all of this into a complete program? Because that is where people get tripped up is okay, now I need to execute this. Um, we've got you covered inside physique university, just to let you know, we have a whole bunch of training templates there. I call them training templates. I don't call them workout programs. They are training templates because they are flexible and we give you substitutions so that if your gym or your home gym doesn't have certain equipment, you can swap something out. We also tell help you understand how to do that and reprogram it for you. And we have a new template called Ignite. Coach Carroll came up with this. It is a time-saving template that is based on some of these principles. It's a four-day upper-lower split, so it prioritizes compound lifts, but it also uses supersets, drop sets, strategic selection of your exercises. And you shouldn't require more than a half an hour if you're doing it efficiently for those four sessions. And it's still considered more of an intermediate program, so it's still gonna get you great results. If you want access to Ignite plus all my other training templates, we've got power building templates, we've got volume and set-based templates, we've got beginner templates, we've got gluten leg templates, and then all the nutrition coaching, community support courses that go with that. Just go to witsandweights.com slash physique. The link is in the show notes. That's witsandweights.com slash physique for the Ignite training template, and you'll see a special code in the show notes to get you another bonus along for the ride. All right, we've got three more strategies. So strategies five, six, seven. Strategy number five to save time in the gym is to increase your training density. Now we talked about supersets. That is kind of a way to increase training density. You're not actually doing more training, but you're doing it in less time. So I'm gonna expand on that with this one with some other ideas. Training density is effectively your work divided by time, right? How much volume are you moving per minute? The higher your density, the more efficient your training, with the caveat that the efficiency isn't offset by a lack of performance because you're moving too quickly and not resting enough. Get it? So we got to make sure we're not becoming a YouTube workout here or an F-45 or a CrossFit workout. We're not trying to do that. We're not trying to do that. All right. No, no offense to YouTube workouts because I know that's a catch-all, but you know what I mean by that. So, what do I mean here? Well, you could shorten your rest periods on your accessory movements. I am a big fan of resting enough on the bigger movements of like say three to five minutes. Some of the, I'll say quasi-big movements, like an RDL, you could probably get away with two to three. And then the accessory movements, you can get away with a minute, maybe two, and be okay. And sometimes that actually is helpful, right? Because it keeps you close to that failure point. Like, let's say you're doing three sets of maximum pull-ups. Take no more than two minutes between them and just go really hard. And you'll probably not be able to get as many reps on sets two or three, but you're still gonna get that uh those effective reps, right? And again, there's there's arguments about this. Should I take a full two and a half, three minutes here to be able to get what my maximum reps would have been? Again, it's a time versus outcome trade-off. I don't think it's worth it for everybody if you're trying to save time because all that rest period adds up. Okay, so that uh putting that out there, but the other piece here is put that damn phone away. And, you know, I'm talking to myself here. This is critical because a lot of people think they're resting a certain amount of time. Maybe they do have a rest timer, but then they're scrolling Instagram, they're checking their email, they're trying to do work, whatever. Maybe it's productive stuff on your phone. I don't know. But then you end up resting another minute or two and it kind of adds up. I would rather you just pace around and get some steps in and just be mindful and ready to jump in, which by the way, could be more effective for your training anyway when your headspace is into the workout rather than constantly getting distracted, right? Because that is not the point of training. And again, I'm talking to myself here too. I do this a lot, and I know I'm here to train. And really the way to do this completely is abstinence, meaning leave your phone in your bag. However, if you're using it to track your workout, I know you have to have it out. So just put it down between sets. So that's one thought as far as training density. Another thought is to expand the superset concept to three or four non-competing exercises, if that's possible, and then rotating them together. Again, this is you're like, well, isn't that more like circuit training? Yeah, kind of. But again, if they're non-competing, you can still expand that same concept. You know, if you're gonna do leg press, then hamstring curls, then calf raises, and then some loaded ab crunches on a cable, right? And if you're doing cable work, for example, that could be an efficient way to do it as well, because you have the machine and you can just change the positions and stuff like that, change the attachments. So three, maybe four. Don't go beyond that, because then it truly becomes more of just like a circuit that you where you may lose performance and get too winded during the process. But again, hypertrophy isn't gonna get sacrificed very much at all. If anything, you might get closer to failure in some of these movements because you're a little bit fatigued. So really think about organizing your workouts. Just because a program doesn't say to do it as a superset doesn't mean you can't, or you can't move the lifts around to get more work done in less time. That's my thought there. All right, strategy number six is to use rest pause or mile reps or drop sets, basically any type of set where you're shortening the time it takes you to do the reps, or you make it where you can't just can't do as many reps, but you're close to failure. So this is again expanding on some of the concepts we're already talking about. So, what are these? Well, rest pause is where you perform a set, it gets close to failure, and then you only rest 15 to 30 seconds. That's all it is. And then you do it again, then you do it again. And so the general drop-off is something like 50%. So if you're able to do 12 reps on set one, you'll probably get around like five to seven on set two, and then maybe a little more than half of that on the third set, really depends. What I like about these, besides saving time, they actually teach you what training hard feels like. They're actually a really good technique for that. Because once you get to that second and third set, your brain is like, wow, I'm surprised I'm already tired, but I'm only getting, you know, five or up so far. Come on, I gotta get another one. Almost it's almost like your ego helps you out a little bit there because you're like, I should be able to get more, right? And then you realize the how much things get fatigued when you don't take enough rest. And in this case, you're intentionally not taking enough rest. So this is great for accessory work. Like if you're gonna do, I don't know, let's say uh incline dumbbell curls with dumbbells. By the way, little tip on incline curls. They're one of the best barbell curls if you do them right. If you're back at like a 30-degree angle, kind of like when you do an incline bench press and you hold dumbbells, you you curl them out at an angle, right? Just keep your keep your palm up and curl them out at you, kind of like wings, just out and all the way down, get that full stretch and then and take a short pause and then up from the bottom. Anyway, so something like that, you'll see how tired you get on sets two and three, but that's the point, and it also saves you time. Another example of this is drop sets. Drop sets are where again you go to failure and then you immediately drop some weight, continue, repeat a few times until you're done. Uh, another example of this is density sets, where you just try to get, you know, 50 reps as quickly as you can, whatever rest you can, whatever rest you can fit in there. Another way to do this is time-based. You're like, okay, I have three minutes and I'm gonna go back and forth between these two, or I'm gonna do just this one thing. I'm gonna do neck curls or I don't know. I'm thinking of that because I actually just tried some of those um ab crunches, you know, like I said, something really small and isolating, and you're just gonna bang out like as many reps as you can in X number of minutes, right? In AMRAP. There's nothing wrong with these for the isolation movements as ways to save time, and you're probably gonna get similar, if not better, results doing them while saving time. I would how I would, however, limit them to maybe a couple exercises per session. Don't do it with everything. Do them with machine work, with isolation work. Do not do these with heavy barbell movements or your form is gonna break down. Now, obviously, if you're using a barbell for bicep curls and you just want to drop do drop sets there, that's fine. That's not what I'm talking about. So this might save you 10 to 15 minutes just gloming a couple exercises together and using these density techniques, uh, rest pause, drop sets, etc. All right, strategy number seven is really about your warm-up. I think a lot of people are spending way too much time warming up before they they lift. 20, 30 minutes, you know, foam rolling, stretching, activation drills, um, way too many ramp up sets. They're not sure where their working set is, so they do too many warm-up sets. Generally, five to 10 minutes of general warm-up max, which might include a little cardio, dynamic work, maybe you need to stretch and loosen up, whatever. I'm I'm cool with all that. I'm not gonna criticize any of that. I think it's great, but maximum five to ten minutes. I mean, five minutes probably. And then your first lift, you're gonna have three to five warm-up sets, most likely. That is how you warm up because you're warming up the movement pattern. I've done entire episodes about this, and we actually teach about this in physics physique university. We have a whole series called Lifting Lessons, and we give you how to the warm-up ladder. You know, we teach about all the different things like bracing and breathing, et cetera. But effectively just get warmed up if it's cold, raise your core temperature, and then you know, one to one to two sets, um, or not one to two sets, uh, three three to five ramp up sets leading to your working weight, where you're increasing the weight, you're dropping the reps, and then you hit your working set. Right. So if your working weight is 225 pounds, you might do, you know, five at 135, four, uh five at 135. Let's see, let me let me think of this the right way. No, let's start with 95. You might do five at 95, you might do three at 135, you might boot two at 185, maybe one at 205, but probably not, then you jump to 225, right? Something like that. So that's definitely gonna save time if you're not doing that already. All right. So if we add all this up, I actually did some math here. If you're spending five to six sessions in the week, 75 to 90 minutes, right? That's like seven and a half hours a week, that's 390 hours a year. If you did all of these strategies and you reduce the number of sessions, you reduce the time, four to five sessions, 45 minutes to an hour, then that's like three, three and a half to four and a half hours a week. So that's around 200 hours a year. So you just reclaimed like 150 to 200 hours a year, which is up to four full weeks of your life back. Again, that's that's the extreme, but you get the idea. And that's without sacrificing the result with your muscle, your strength. And a lot of people improve when they do things like this because they're training with more focus and with more intensity and better recovery. And sometimes this increases your metabolism because you're not as stressed. You're able to get more sleep. You get it? It kind of compounds on itself. So it's not about training more or training longer, it's training more intelligently, more efficiently, building that system that works for your life. Now, there's one huge side benefit I haven't mentioned yet. When you train more efficiently, your consistency goes up. Because when your workouts are shorter, you have a little bit more motivation to go, you have more time to go, you're less tired and fatigued, so you have more energy to go, right? And so you've just reduced a bunch of friction. And that just naturally makes you show up more, look forward to it more. It's exciting, it's fun, it's not this huge commitment, right? Some people love working out 90 minutes, six days a week. That's fine. We're not, I'm not talking to you. Talking about people want to save time and still get the result. And so there's this compound effect of efficiency like this. Shorter workouts lead to better adherence, that leads to more total training volume over time. And that is where the results come from is that that volume over time applied consistently. So I do see this a lot. We have a lot of clients, this might be you, that come in, they're kind of burned out from quote unquote working out so much. And they're like, but how do I, you know, that's not working? Do I have to do more to get more muscle and and more fat loss? No, sometimes you have to cut that sucker in half and get rid of all the cardio. And all of a sudden, now you start going to the gym more often because it's fun. It doesn't take that much time. You're walking in between in a flexible way, and now in six months, 12 months, you've made huge progress, way more progress you've made in the last three, five, twenty years or your whole life, possibly. Most likely. Consistency beats intensity every time. Remember that. The intensity can ramp up slowly over time once the consistency is in place. And being efficient like this increases your consistency. And then again, the other benefit is you enjoy training again. It becomes energizing. You look forward to it. So, really, it's not just saving time, it's building a sustainable, consistent system for training. All right, so if you want the exact training template that puts some of these into practice, check out the Ignite program inside Physique University. Go to witsonweights.comslash physique. It's a four day upper lower split. We have a full library of other templates. We teach you how to. Do it. We give you substitutions. We give you training videos. We give you, of course, support. Lots and lots of ways for you to succeed. Make this consistent, get the result you want, build that muscle, lose that fat. Go to witsandweights.com slash physique or click the link in the show notes and make sure to look for the code in the show notes for an extra bonus. All right, until next time, keep using your wits, lifting those weights. And remember, efficiency isn't about doing less, it's about doing what matters the most. I'm Philip Pape and I'll talk to you next time.

The Myth of Reverse Dieting (Do THIS Instead) | Ep 389

Join the 10-Week Recovery Diet Workshop tomorrow (Tuesday, October 21) at noon Eastern. Get the complete evidence-based protocol for metabolic recovery without reverse dieting. Just $27 includes the full workshop, replay, 20-page protocol workbook, and bonuses.

Register at: http://live.witsandweights.com

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Reverse dieting promises to "fix" your suppressed (or "broken") metabolism through gradual calorie increases, but does it actually work?

Is it the most efficient way to "recover" after a fat loss phase or years of dieting?

Discover what the research actually shows about metabolic recovery, why reverse dieting creates convincing illusions of progress while delaying actual results, and what you should do instead if you're stuck at low calories heading into the new year.

Episode Resources:

• Try MacroFactor for free with code WITSANDWEIGHTS

• Join the 10-Week Recovery Diet Workshop (Tuesday, October 21 at noon ET) - $27 includes workshop, replay, 20-page guide, and bonuses:
  http://live.witsandweights.com

Timestamps:

0:00 - Reverse dieting hype vs. evidence
5:00 - Myth 1: Precision reveals "true" metabolism
10:05 - Myth 2: Maintenance is a fixed number
14:50 - Myth 3: Eating more without gaining fat
19:48 - Myth 4: Gradual increases drive recovery
24:25 - What actually drives recovery
26:50 - The 6 steps of a proper recovery diet

4 Reverse Dieting Myths

Reverse dieting has become one of the most overhyped “metabolism-fixing” strategies in the fitness world. You’ve seen the claims: add 50 to 100 calories per week, “train” your metabolism to burn more, and magically maintain your new weight without gaining fat. Sounds great—until you look at the data.

In this episode, Philip breaks down the myths behind reverse dieting, what the research actually shows about metabolic recovery, and why most people end up delaying progress by doing it wrong.

The Problem with Reverse Dieting

Reverse dieting started as a recovery strategy for physique competitors, but social media turned it into a universal “metabolic fix.” The problem? It’s based on several false assumptions:

1. Myth 1: Extreme precision reveals your metabolism.
   Tracking precisely doesn’t increase metabolism—it just exposes how much you were truly eating. Many people discover they weren’t actually in a deficit after all, which is why they “magically” start maintaining on more food.

2. Myth 2: Maintenance is a single fixed number.
   Your maintenance calories exist in a range—often 300 to 400 calories wide. Reverse dieters often mistake moving from the low end of that range to the high end as “boosting” metabolism when nothing physiologically changed.

3. Myth 3: You’re eating more without gaining because your metabolism increased.
   Not quite. Weight change reflects long-term energy balance, not what you ate today. Small daily surpluses add up slowly, creating the illusion of eating more while maintaining.

4. Myth 4: Gradually increasing calories drives recovery.
   The research is clear: metabolic rate increases because you end the deficit, not because you inch calories up. Hormones and energy output start rebounding within days once you return to true maintenance.

What to Do Instead (The Recovery Diet)

Rather than dragging things out for months, the smarter and faster path is a recovery diet—a structured process to restore metabolic function without unnecessary fat gain.

Here’s how:

1. Assess your foundations: Sleep, stress, movement, and strength training all affect recovery.

2. Jump to maintenance quickly: Don’t inch there; restore energy balance in days, not weeks.

3. Track dynamic maintenance: Use data-driven tools like MacroFactor (code: WITSANDWEIGHTS) to identify your real expenditure.

4. Accept biology: If you’re very lean, full recovery might mean regaining a little fat.

5. Monitor biofeedback: Strength, energy, mood, and sleep quality improve as metabolism normalizes.

6. Plan your next phase: After recovery, you can re-enter fat loss from a healthy, sustainable baseline.

Reverse dieting doesn’t speed up metabolism—it just delays recovery. The real key is eliminating the deficit and rebuilding your foundations so your body feels safe to burn energy again.

Your metabolism isn’t broken. It’s adaptive. And when you understand that, you can finally stop guessing, start eating, and move forward with confidence.

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Transcript

Philip Pape: 0:00

By now you've probably heard of reverse dieting, and that it is the solution to your suppressed metabolism. Add 50 to 100 calories every week, watch your metabolic rate magically climb, and avoid fat regain in the process. Except the research shows that reverse dieting, the way it's commonly practiced and promoted, is mostly built on myths. The benefits people experience have almost nothing to do with gradually adding calories, and everything to do is simply getting out of a deficit. Today I'm breaking down what the evidence actually shows about metabolic recovery, why reverse dieting perpetuates myths that keep people stuck, and what you should do instead if you're stuck at low calories heading into the new year. I'm your host, Philip Pape, and today we're going to talk about one of the most overhyped strategies in the fitness industry, reverse dieting. I've spent years working with clients who have tried reverse dieting, and I've watched this approach evolve from a post-contest recovery strategy for bodybuilders into a supposed metabolic fix for anyone who's ever dieted. And the problem is that most of what you've been told or see on social media about reverse dieting is not supported by evidence. The actual research, and there's a lot of it now, it's actually quite interesting, tells a very different story than Instagram testimonials and coaching programs selling you on this approach. So today we're going to look at what the evidence shows, why reverse dieting does perpetuate these myths that seem true, but they're not, and what you should do instead. Because this is more about recovery dieting and doing it the right way, not doing reverse dieting the way it's usually perpetuated. Before we get into it, I want to share what is possible when you actually get this right. I want to share some quotes from members of Physique University who've been working on their nutrition and training foundations over the past few weeks and months. Joseph says, quote, I'm working on my lifting form. Thanks for form checks with inputs from both Coach Carol and Coach Phillip. I have expert inputs allowing me to improve my workouts. Huge plus. Also, looks like my body fat's trending downward and muscle mass is on the incline. So everything's headed in the positive direction. Joe said, quote, I can now wear a pair of jeans that were consigned to the same pile as underwired bras and high-heeled shoes, labeled not possible anymore. They fit perfectly now and don't hurt anymore. And Christine told me, quote, I had to bring my daughter to get a new state ID this morning. She was asking about the real ID, so I got my license out. It I saw that after 39 years, I finally weigh less than my license shows by 30 pounds. And these are just a variety of different outcomes that people are getting depending on their goal. And it's what happens when you understand what drives recovery and stop relying on some of these myths. Joseph is seeing body composition improvements while getting stronger. Joe is experiencing real-world benefits that she cares about. And Christina's getting results she hasn't seen in 39 years. So if you want these kinds of results for yourself, I am teaching the complete system tomorrow at noon Eastern in the 10-week recovery diet workshop. Registration is open right up until then. So you can go to the link in the show notes or live.witsandweights.com. So let's talk about why reverse dieting isn't what most people think it is. I want to start with the conclusion and then work backward through the evidence. Reverse dieting, if you look at social media and how it's practiced, promoted, and spoken about, it's based on a fundamental misunderstanding of how metabolic recovery works. The idea is that by very slowly and precisely adding calories, usually it's something like 50 to 100 a week, sometimes I'll see 200 calories, and tracking everything, you can somehow coax your metabolic rate upward. You could jumpstart your metabolism without regaining fat. And then you can supposedly lose fat from a higher metabolism. At least those are different elements of this claim. The research shows this is backward. The benefits that people experience from reverse dieting have nothing to do with the gradual calorie increases. It comes from getting rid of the energy deficit. That's a different thing. Those are two different things. Okay. Getting out of a deficit causes your rate to partially recover back to its current baseline or set point, whatever word you want to use. And that happens whether you jump straight to maintenance or you drag it out and inch your way there over, say, 12 weeks. So what reverse dieting actually does then is delay recovery while perpetuating myths that make it seem like the gradual increases are doing something special and that they're necessary. And then understanding these is important because, you know, lots of smart, well-intentioned coaches believe and say these things, and sometimes in a negative sense in that they are used preying on your fear to get you to join a program. So today we're going to break down four myths that keep people stuck in reverse dieting. And we're going to talk about what actually drives recovery. And then finally, what should you do specifically? So myth number one is that extreme tracking precision is going to reveal your true metabolism. Now you might be shocked to hear me say that because I talk about macrofactor all the time and how tracking your weight and your food is going to help you understand your true estimated expenditure. So if you are, for example, adding 10 grams of carbs this week and you don't account for that, then the entire approach is meaningless somehow, that you have to track to the gram every day, or you can't tell if your planned increases are having any effect. But what's happening when you are tracking, however precise you are, is that you're revealing how much you're actually eating. You're not actually revealing your improved metabolism. And again, you're like, wait a minute, Philip, it doesn't quite jive with what you've said in the past about eating, tracking your food, tracking your weight, and revealing your metabolism. Stick with me because there's some nuances here. So I'll see this a lot with clients, right? Someone comes to me, you know, thinking their metabolism is just so much lower with age, it's broken, whatever words we want to use. And they're like, hey, I'm only eating 1400 calories at the moment. I can't lose weight anymore. So I'm not going to go ahead and immediately change their diet. What I want to start with is tightening up their tracking and awareness. I want them to weigh using a food scale. I want them to use the barcode. I want them to use AI-based vision estimates, whatever makes sense. It doesn't have to be perfect. But I do want them to log everything for the day and do it every day so that we get the most and the most precise data in a relatively short time. Okay. And suddenly they discover, oh, I'm eating 1800 calories. So that's one scenario. And I'll say it's not the most common scenario today because a lot of people that come to me have heard the podcast. They know to do this. They're not gaslit about how many calories they're eating, is the word I'm going to use. Okay. But a lot of people aren't tracking or not doing it consistently, or they're skipping weekends, or they're using an inferior tool like MyFitnessPal, where they're just tracking, but they don't know how much to target. So then they feel guilty when they don't hit their goals and then they don't track on those days or those meals, right? And the list goes on and on and on. And we we know that even registered dietitians, right? People who have lots of nutrition training are routinely underestimating their calorie intake unless they actually track it. Many of us just are terrible at this. You know, 40 to 50% is common for non-nutrition people or people who haven't gone through this before. So even if you're trying to do it intuitively, you could be off by 20%. And then it kind of compounds over time as your diet changes, your life changes, maybe the adherence is a little bit spotty, those errors get even larger if you're not, you know, kind of on top of it. So what makes reverse dieting seem to work is that you are now more precise with your tracking and it improves your habits. Because the loose tracking that you did before, where you were quote unquote eating 2000 calories, but maybe you were eating 2,400 on average because you didn't count the weekends, you didn't count the snacks, you didn't count the bites, didn't count the eating off of your kid's plates, right? Those sorts of things, as well-intentioned as you were, that's gone. And now you're like, oh, okay, I'm actually averaging a few hundred more calories than I thought. And then your brain goes into the solution mode of, oh, well, now I maybe need to meal plan a little bit differently to bring that number closer where my maintenance is. So it's not that, hey, I used to maintain on 2000, now I'm maintaining on 2600, my metabolism is fixed. It's not what we're doing here. That's that's one of the myths. You are always eating whatever the value is and maintaining at that weight. You just didn't know because your tracking wasn't as accurate. So for many of you, you've already gone past this point and you are tracking, but I do want to address the listener who is still not quite tracking consistently because there is extreme value in that. Tracking creates a real measurable difference in the numbers you see because you see the truth. You see the real logged calories. It doesn't have to be perfect. By that I mean you should log everything, but the accuracy, there's gonna be a little bit of error, but the error tends to work itself out. It tends to be a little high and a little low. For example, if you're using AI-based food logging, I think that's good enough. I think it's going to be a little bit high sometimes, a little bit low sometimes, especially if you give it context, it's gonna be a little bit more accurate. And all of this can be extremely empowering in and of itself without doing anything else. Of course, it then throws water in your face because you're like, oh, I'm actually eating a little bit more. So I my behaviors do have to change a little bit, right? So if you need that level of precision to make reverse dieting quote unquote work, that kind of tells you something. Okay. I think real changes to your metabolism can happen regardless of whether you're tracking precisely, right? They're they're two different concepts. But the the tracking is going to create the awareness that's gonna improve the habits that are gonna help you with your metabolic change. Okay, I hope that all made sense for the first one because some of these myths are a little bit are a little bit nuanced. All right. Myth number two is that your metabolism only works at a specific calorie level. And what I mean by this is the idea that your true maintenance is, you know, this one number and it's not very different and it doesn't differ very much. In other words, it's fixed or close to it. So let's say your maintenance is 2200 right now, then your brain immediately goes to, okay, if I eat 2100, obviously I'm gonna lose weight. And if I eat 2300, I'm obviously gonna gain weight. But the reality is far from that. Let me walk it through. Okay, so let's say your true expenditure, we call it your total daily energy expenditure, the amount of calories you burn in a day. Let's say it is 2200 calories per day right now. If you eat exactly 2200 calories a day, your weight will probably stay fairly stable. Now, if you eat 2100 calories a day instead, you're in a 100 calorie deficit. Over three months, we would see a, you know, a couple pounds of fat loss, let's say. But because daily weight fluctuates by, say, one to three pounds for most people, having nothing to do with fat, but because of water, you may not even be able to notice that. Even if you're using a tool like Macrofactor, you know, which is as precise as it gets in terms of your weight trend, it's gonna be hard to see that. Now, what if you're eating 2,300 calories? So that's a hundred calorie surplus. Again, opposite. You're gonna gain a couple pounds over several months, barely noticeable, especially within the noise of day-to-day fluctuations. So for practical purposes, your maintenance is actually a range of something like 400 calories. I mean, you know, because 400, we're talking about practicality here. So anywhere from let's say 2,000 to 2,400 calories a day is gonna feel like maintenance to you. And because the scale isn't obviously going up or down, your clothes fit the same, you would say that you're maintaining. But here's how it creates another reverse dieting myth. Let's say someone finishes a diet at 1800 calories and they're on the low end of their maintenance range, maybe even a small deficit because but but because they're losing weight so slowly, they perceive themselves as maintaining, right? And then they start reverse dieting. Over, say, 10 weeks, they work up to 2200 calories. So they went from 1800 to 200. And remember that 400 calorie range. Well, now they're kind of on the high end of their maintenance range that they ended the diet with. Maybe they're in a small surplus, but again, the weight change is barely perceptible. And then you think their mind goes to, hey, I just added 400 calories over those 10 weeks and my weight stayed the same. Awesome, reverse dieting works. But their actual expenditure might have been 2,000 calories the entire time. They went from slightly below to slightly above it, and they stayed within that invisible range of quote unquote maintenance the entire time. They didn't reverse metabolic adaptation, none of this reverse dieting magic occurred. They just moved from one end of maintenance to another. Maintenance is a range. And it fluctuates even so, even beyond that. You know, I could think of a client who, for example, reverse dieted from 1700 to 2100 calories over 12 weeks with a previous coach and had told me this story how she had done these reverse diets and she's like, Yeah, I added 400 calories, I didn't seem to gain weight. But when you averaged it out based on the intake, her TDEEE was really around 1950 the entire time. When you look at the expenditure graph, we had to reverse engineer it with her data because she wasn't using macrofactor at the time, and then we kind of reverse engineered it. So that's like she started slightly below it and did slightly above it, and it looked like metabolic recovery. And I think this is a power myth, powerful myth to sit on here because it creates the it creates the experience that reverse dieting promises, which is eating more without gaining weight, but nothing's changed. It's purely a, I'll call it an accounting error. It has to do with math and averages and dynamic dynamic, your system being dynamic and the signal versus noise and all that fun stuff, the kind of the engineering stuff that you really have to be aware of. And you can get fooled by if somebody is a really slick marketer and kind of flips the numbers the right way. And so this is why tracking and monitoring your expenditure matter a lot. Because when you understand your actual energy expenditure via logging food, logging weight, not just this perception or this like nebulous range, it helps you target in on those smart decisions. How do I want to adjust my calorie, calories, but not let it drag out a long time and not actually have a result? So I'm teaching this tomorrow at Noon Eastern in the 10-week recovery diet workshop. This is not reverse dieting with all the myths and all the false promises, but it's actually called recovery dieting, where it's based on your metabolic response and your personal lifestyle and the need to adjust as you hit various plateaus and situations. So I'm going to walk through how to assess your foundation. You know, how are you even in the place where you can properly track, measure, and execute a recovery diet and know that you're doing it? How to use that data, like your expenditure, to make those informed adjustments, how to monitor biofeedback, which honestly is one of the best indicators of recovery. And then what to do when your data shows that you're ready for certain changes along the way. So you don't go too slowly. I'd rather you get there fast and efficiently if you can't. So that's tomorrow. It's $27, includes a 20-page protocol workbook and all the bonuses, all the guides, the workshop itself. Live.witsandweights.com or click the link in the show notes. Go to live.witsandweights.com, click the link in the show notes. I'm going to continue on now with myth number three that you are eating more without gaining because your metabolism's going up. Now, again, you might think, well, yeah, isn't that what happens when you recover? You eat more, your metabolism follows, and therefore you don't gain weight. And mathematically, it's very convincing. It explains why a lot of people are certain that reverse dieting worked for them. And again, you're thinking, Philip, this sounds a lot like what you talk about, but there's differences. I really want to explain. I hope I'm doing a good job on this podcast because it's hard to do this. The myth is hey, I'm now eating 2,800 calories and maintaining the same weight I used to maintain at 2,000 calories. Therefore, my metabolism increased by 800 calories. The problem is that calorie intake is instantaneous, but body weight change is cumulative. When you ignore that cumulative math, you create a myth of metabolic improvement. And honestly, as much as I love macrofactor and I use it myself, this is where I have to constantly question what it's telling me in terms of the expenditure and either offset it one way or the other because people, I think, maybe trust it too much to be like, this is what's going on today, even though it's a lagging indicator, all right, and doesn't overrespond, it's very conservative. So what's actually happening looks like this. Let's say you finish your diet, you go on a fat loss phase, you lose some fat, you finish your diet, or maybe you're plateauing, whatever. Let's say your expenditure at the end of the diet is 2,400 calories, but you're not quite sure that's what it is. You've been eating something below that, right? Like let's say 1800, what did we say? 1800 calories? I don't think I gave you a number, but let's say 1800 calories. And so you're like, I'm gonna do a reverse diet, I'm gonna jump up to 1900, and I'm gonna go up 50 calories a week for the next X number of weeks until I recover my metabolism. So in the first, let's say, eight weeks, if you're going up 50 calories a week, you're basically still in a deficit because you didn't really trust how high you should go and you didn't want to lose fat, right? And then at some point you hit your maintenance, but you're still going and you start to overshoot, and eventually you get into a surplus and you start to gain a little bit of weight, but all of this is imperceptible. It's all imperceptible. And then by let's say three or four months later, you've been trying to do this, it may not take that long, maybe a shorter time frame. You're actually eating a higher level than your true maintenance that's even fully recovered. And your cumulative energy balance over that entire time is approximately zero. You haven't gained weight, but you think you've boosted your metabolism by that amount of calories, let's say 800 calories. Except in reality, you took a long time to get to your true maintenance, and then you took a long time slightly going past it. And again, going back to myth number one, you're effectively in that range the entire time. And yet you've probably ended up on the top end, and now you may be in a surplus and start to gain weight, but it's gonna happen slowly over time. So it's this lack of data and lack of confidence where you think, oh, the reverse diet worked and I'm maintaining my weight, and you're not really, you're actually starting to slowly gain weight at that point, maybe a lot of weight, and it just slowly catches up. And so I think this part ex this myth explains the most common reverse dieting testimonial, quote unquote, you know, I'm I'm eating so much more than I used to, and I haven't gained weight. Okay. Because it's true, at least on the surface, but they haven't been eating that much more for very long, and the cumulative energy balance really hasn't had time to catch up. And because they're not tracking their data accurately, they don't know it. And so this is where, hey, I gained eight pounds or 10 pounds months later, and I'm not, and I don't know why. So this is kind of disconnecting calorie intake, which is what you eat today, from body composition, which is what you've eaten over many months. And the illusion of reverse dieting manipulates the timing to create this myth of eating more without gaining, but the cumulative math is gonna catch up eventually. And that brings me to myth number four that gradual calorie increases drive the metabolic recovery. And this is the most important myth to understand because it gets at the core misunderstanding of what actually drives metabolic recovery. The reverse dieting myth says that gradually increasing your calories causes your metabolic rate, your metabolism to increase. Add 50 calories this week, your metabolism speeds up a bit, add another 50 next week, it speeds up more, keep going. And then you rebuild your metabolic capacity through this careful manipulation of calories. And again, the research shows us and experience shows us this is backward. What actually happens is eliminating the energy deficit, the calorie deficit, causes a metabolic, your metabolic rate to increase. That's different than increasing calories causing it to increase. You have to eliminate the deficit. When you transition from a negative energy balance to a neutral energy balance, maintenance, metabolic adaptation partially reverses because you're no longer in an energy depleted or resource-depleted state. And guess how fast this happens? Within days, it has nothing to do with whether you jumped straight to maintenance or inched your way there over 12 weeks. Once you get to maintenance, right, and that's the important part, you're gonna start recovering very quickly, which is why we want to do it quickly. Okay. Metabolic adaptation is driven by two things: the loss of fat mass and body weight and the presence of an energy deficit, right? Those are two different things. You're getting lighter on the scale and you're in a deficit. When you get rid of the deficit, that portion of adaptation driven by the deficit reverses very quickly. The portion driven by your loss in body mass is going to persist until you regain it because you're just a lighter person. Of course, that was your goal, right? To be a lighter person. So you take that along for the ride. So reverse dieting gets the causality backward, the cause and effect. You're not able to add more calories because you're carefully manipulating your metabolism upward. You're able to add more calories because eliminating the deficit increased your metabolic rate. And now your old maintenance is actually a slight deficit, right? The maintenance you ended your diet with, technically, right, is now a slight deficit because you've recovered to your true, full recovered maintenance as quickly as you could. I think it's almost like a parallel to progressive overload and training, right? You don't get stronger because you added five pounds to the bar. You're able to add five pounds to the bar because you got stronger from the previous training. I know it sounds like a paradox, but the weight increase is the effect of you adapting and getting stronger, which is why we're not really overloading, we're actually loading right to the edge and then causing that adaptation. The same thing happens with reverse dieting. The calorie increases are the effect of metabolic recovery from eliminating the deficit. So you're kind of like allowed now to increase your calories because you're slowly getting out of that deficit, and the recovery happens because of that. The gradual increase in those calories are you just getting up to that point, albeit slower than I would like you to, which is kind of the whole point of this whole discussion. And this matters because if reverse dieting is the effect instead of the cause, then the approach is redundant. What do I mean? Well, you're engaging in weeks or months of this guesswork, and maybe you are tracking, but it's still this very mentally fatiguing calorie manipulation to accomplish something that happens when you automatically automatically when you just go to maintenance. You just jump up to maintenance now, like within a day. So the research actually confirms this. When people transition out of an energy deficit right to their true maintenance, their metabolic rate goes up within days, not weeks, not months, days. And it increases the same amount whether you jump to maintenance now or your reverse diet, you're way there weeks later. But we want it now, don't we? We want to recover. Your body's gonna feel much better for it. What does not increase quickly is the part of your metabolism driven by your body weight because you're lighter and you can't change that. It's a biological reality. That's the other confusion because you're not gonna recover, you may not recover fully to the metabolism you had before. Now, the difference being you're probably also building muscle over time. So that's gonna slowly inch up your metabolism as well, just a little bit. But in the short term, you're not gonna have any of that going on. You're just gonna be a little bit lower because your body weight, but you should recover because you're not in the diet. And I actually see this in the data when when I work with clients or in physique university and we're using macrofactor and we're doing this the right way. We'll sometimes see the expenditure bottom out, and then within a few days or at most a couple weeks, it really starts to climb and get back to its normal level. It's always gonna have ups or downs, though. You gotta understand that it's very dynamic, but it's going to recover. So putting this all together, and then I'm gonna talk about what to do instead in a moment. The evidence tells us that metabolic adaptation, it's not permanent damage. It's just temporary, a temporary change in metabolism that reverses when you eliminate the deficit. And then if you gain your weight back, it'll go all the way back to what it was before. Or if you gain muscle, it's gonna go up, right? That's adaptation. The adaptation adds friction to the whole process and it adds confusion. And that's why I do these episodes. But we're talking about a modest impact, not a huge impact. Effectively, effectively, when metabolism drops during dieting, it's gonna add several weeks to the whole process. Or it's gonna cause you to have to eat a little bit less. That's basically what it comes down to. And you can choose do I want to go faster and have it be a little bit harder with more hunger, or do I want to go slower and face the reality of it? The portion driven by the deficit will reverse within days of returning to maintenance. That's, you know, primarily hormonal, right? Your thyroid, we know it drops by like 6% on average in a 500-calorie deficit, but then it goes right back up when you get out of the deficit within days. We know this from bodybuilders as well. You know, the research on physique athletes, those who tried to kind of restrict their weight regain because they were worried about getting too much fat back, they actually had this persistent long-term suppression of their metabolism. While people who said, you know, I'm gonna come right back to my set point right now, recovered faster. And then ironically or coincidentally, your metabolism then pops back up where it needs to be. So, what should you do instead? So instead of reverse dieting, you want to do what's called a recovery diet. It's not about gradually adding calories and hoping, guessing, taking time, being stuck in that maintenance window and not actually recovering. It's understanding what drives recovery and then optimizing for those factors. And I'm gonna give you six quick ones here. And again, we're gonna cover these in detail in tomorrow's workshop. First is to assess your foundations. These are things like sleep, stress, training, activity, nutrition quality. All of that is going to help you regain your or not regain, it's going to help you come back to your uh recovered state without gaining fat, right? Because that's what we're trying to do. Number two is transitioning to maintenance as quickly as you can instead of inching your way there over many weeks or potentially months. And you can do that with a lot of confidence without worrying about fat regain when you follow the kind of approach that we take. Number three is to be tracking your dynamic maintenance. Again, we use MacroFactor, use my code Wits and Weights, all in Word. It is the only food logger that can do that right now. The only other way to do it is with a spreadsheet. Although I'm gonna drop a hint right now, there's an app that I'm developing that will also do that for you in the background. But anyway, your metabolic rate is gonna climb slightly after you eliminate the deficit. And you want to get first to where it is right now as quickly as you can, and then you start to jump up to where it's going to be in the short term. So that's not reverse dieting, that is a quick jump and then some subsequent jumps as you know how your metabolism is changing. Number four is to accept the reality of biology that, you know, if if you're extremely lean to get fully, fully, fully recovered, you're probably gonna gain a little bit of fat back, or you're just gonna have to stay, you know, to stay lean, you're gonna have to just be eating a little bit less, not a lot less, like a diet, but it's not gonna be as much as you were when you were heavier, right? You can't override that with any system or magic reverse dieting protocol. Number five is tracking things that really matter during this whole process, like your strength, your energy, your sleep, the performance in the gym, all of that is telling you that recovery is happening. So even if you didn't have all this data about calories, you could tell quite straightforwardly, I don't know if that's an adverb, based on your biofeedback that you're recovering. And then number six is using your recovered capacity now in an intelligent way. What I mean by that is let's say you come to our workshop tomorrow and then follow the 10-week protocol. Now, it doesn't take 10 weeks to recover. A lot of that time has to do with building the foundational habits, okay, and assessing these things and doing it the right way. It's actually gonna happen fairly quickly, but you're gonna finish your recovery, you're gonna enter the new year at a well-known maintenance with good biofeedback, then you're ready to go hard at a proper fat loss phase. Not because you boosted your metabolism, but because you're not fighting this deficit-driven, this lack of foundation-driven suppression in your metabolism. That is recovery dieting, okay? And that is what I'm teaching tomorrow with all the implementation details, with the workbook, with the plan and everything. In tomorrow's workshop, just go to livewitsandweights.com. Again, just go to live.witsandweights.com or use the link in the show notes. It's $27, includes a complete 20-page protocol workbook. It includes the foundation assessment, it includes the dynamic maintenance approach we talked about today, how to actually execute it. It includes how to bio how to monitor your biofeedback, and I even have a troubleshooting guide in there for all of the things that will come up in the data, in your plan, and in your life, especially since it's during the holidays. So again, go to live.wits and weights.com or click the link in the show notes if you want to stop wasting time on all these diets and the reverse dieting. And you want to understand this is how I recover, and then I can go after good fat loss in the future. Until next time. Keep using your wits, lifting those weights, and remember your metabolism isn't broken, it's just adapted. And understanding the difference is what actually drives recovery. My name is Philip Pape, and you're listening to the Wits and Weights podcast. Talk to you next time.

Pain-Free Knees, Low Back, and Shoulders for Training LONGEVITY (Dr. John Rusin) | Ep 388

Get John’s new book Pain-Free Performance: Move Better, Train Smarter, and Build an Unbreakable Body

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Knees sore? Back tight? Shoulders giving out? You’re not broken, you’re just missing the system your body was built on.

I talk with Dr. John Rusin, an internationally recognized strength coach, physical therapist, and author of Pain-Free Performance, about how to train hard without breaking down.

John reveals why your knees, back, and shoulders fail together, and how the "pillar" (your hips, core, and shoulders) holds the key to lasting strength. We cover breathing and bracing for stability, rebuilding your deadlift safely, and the movement mistakes that cause chronic pain. You’ll learn how to train smarter, move better, and build real resilience so you can lift for life, not just the next program.

Today, you’ll learn all about:

0:00 – Intro
2:43 – The pillar that powers pain-free strength
4:19 – Breathing and bracing the right way
8:22 – How to train hard without breaking down
11:42 – The mistakes keeping you in pain
16:38 – Why perfect form isn’t one size fits all
19:26 – How to find your ideal squat setup
27:32 – The deadlift myth that’s hurting your back
41:12 – Why lunges are your secret weapon
51:00 – Shoulder pain fixes that actually work

Episode resources:

• Pain-Free Performance (John’s new book)

• Dr. John Rusin’s website:  drjohnrusin.com

• Dr. John Rusin on Instagram: @drjohnrusin 

• Dr. John Rusin on Youtube: @johnrusin3229

Pain-Free Knees, Back, and Shoulders for a Lifetime of Lifting

You don’t have to choose between training hard and staying pain-free.
Most chronic lifting pain—knees that ache, a cranky low back, tight shoulders—comes from the same root problem: treating the body as a set of isolated parts instead of an integrated system.

In this episode, Dr. John Rusin breaks down why pain shows up where it does, how the hips, core, and shoulders work together as your body’s “pillar,” and the simple way to bulletproof your joints for the long haul.

Why the Same Three Joints Keep Getting Hurt

Knees, lower back, and shoulders are connected through what Rusin calls the pillar complex: shoulders → core → hips.
When one area loses stability, the others pick up the slack.

• Weak or unbraced cores overload the spine.

• Tight hips shift force to the knees.

• Poor shoulder positioning breaks the chain at the top.

Fixing one area in isolation—say, hammering your abs for low back pain—rarely works. The key is systemic stability, not spot fixes.

The Foundation: Breathing and Bracing

Most lifters brace wrong. They tense their abs but ignore the hips and shoulders, breaking that pillar of stability.
Rusin’s approach starts with a sequence:

1. Create tension around the shoulders.

2. Create tension around the hips.

3. Inhale deeply and brace the core—360 degrees, not just the front.

Your bracing intensity should match the lift. Max-effort deadlift? Full brace, hold breath.
High-rep goblet squats? Lighter brace so you can keep breathing.
As Rusin says, “As load goes up, breathing goes down.”

Train Hard, Not Careless

Pain-free doesn’t mean easy. The sweet spot is between reckless intensity and endless rehab.
You can and should train hard—just not blindly. Rusin calls this the functional meathead approach: combining the intensity of traditional strength work with the intelligence of corrective exercise.

That means:

• Warming up with purpose.

• Building capacity across all six foundational patterns—squat, hinge, lunge, push, pull, and carry.

• Avoiding “planned injuries” from stubbornly doing what already hurts.

Rebuilding the Big Three Patterns

1. Hip Hinge (for the back):
Deadlifts are high reward but also high risk when done poorly. Rusin’s data shows 93% of lifters can’t maintain spinal neutrality pulling from the floor.
Start by rebuilding your hinge at an elevation, learn to brace, and progress gradually. The goal: eliminate rapid, forceful spinal flexion, the #1 cause of back injury.

2. Lunge (for the knees and hips):
Rusin calls it the most neglected pattern in training.
Unilateral work exposes asymmetries and develops stability that squats and hinges can’t.
The lunge pattern blends the best of both: knee-forward quad strength and hip extension for glutes and hamstrings.
He programs up to 70% of lower-body work in single-leg variations for general clients and athletes alike.

3. Row (for the shoulders):
Shoulder pain often comes from decades of pushing more than pulling.
His rule: at least two pulling movements for every push.
Face pulls, single-arm rows, cable pulls, and supported T-bar rows train the back safely and restore balance.
Traditional barbell bent-over rows? Too much risk for too little reward for most people.

Fixing the Most Common Pain Zones

• Low back: Build your hinge and brace; stop chasing “perfect neutral” and instead stay within your zone of control.

• Knees: Manage shin angle. Go more vertical during flare-ups, then progressively reintroduce knees-forward positions. Prioritize hamstrings and glutes.

• Shoulders: Balance push/pull volume 2:1, use neutral grips when possible, and reintroduce closed-chain movements like push-ups to let the shoulder blades move naturally.

The Long Game (Longevity Through Movement)

The goal isn’t just to train without pain—it’s to train forever.
That means evolving your approach as mileage adds up, not waiting for an injury to force change.
As Dr. Rusin says:

“We don’t have to give up what we love to do. We just need a smarter system to keep doing it.”

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Transcript

Philip Pape: 0:01

If you've been pushing through knee pain, nursing a cranky low back, or avoiding certain lifts because your shoulders complain, you need this episode. My guest today reveals why these three areas fail together, not separately, and how most training advice makes the problem worse. You'll discover why stability in one area affects pain in another, how to modify movements without abandoning your goals, and what actually builds resilience instead of just managing symptoms. Stop choosing between results and pain-free training when you can have both. Welcome to Wits and Weights, the show that helps you build a strong, healthy physique using evidence, engineering, and efficiency. I'm your host, Philip Pape, and today we're discussing why the joints that handle some of the most load, your knees, your low back, your shoulders, tend to get beat up and how you can achieve a pain-free approach to your training and movement. My guest today is Dr. John Russin, a physical therapist and strength coach who's worked with everyone. He's worked with athletes from the MLB to the NFL to the Olympics, powerlifting, endurance sports. He founded the pain-free performance specialist certification, which has certified thousands of coaches and clinicians since 2018. He is the author of the new book, Pain Free Performance, which I've had the pleasure to read myself. And he was even named a top 50 health and fitness expert by Men's Health. Today, you're going to learn from John why your body, especially the hips, the shoulders, the core, tends to thrive as a system, how to modify movements without abandoning those precious strength goals that we all have. What actually builds joint resilience versus just treating symptoms and how to progress and still train hard? Train hard. We want to train hard while staying healthy. Whether you're currently dealing with pain or want to prevent it before it starts, listen up to the entire episode because John is about to drop some wisdom when it comes to training longevity. John, welcome to the show. Phillip, that was one hell of an intro. I appreciate it and I'm absolutely buttered up. All right. You're psyched. You're psyched. That's what we want to do here. We want to talk about how to stay healthy. We got a bunch of lifters listening in. We have a bunch of people that want to lift. We might have an 80-year-old grandmothers who were just told that if they don't start lifting, they're going to be in a convalescent home. You know, we've got everybody who needs to get healthy and fit. And I want to start with thinking about the body as a system and what you call the pillar, kind of the hips through the core to the shoulders and why that's so important. I know, I know when I'm doing my deadlift, why it's important, but really I want to understand the big context here. Let's start there.

Dr. John Rusin: 2:43

There's this big misconception when it comes to strength training or health and longevity training today that we just have to get isolated strength. You get isolated strength at your abs for lower back pain, isolated strength at your biceps to look better, isolated strength and hypertrophy at the butt if you want to fill out your genes. But that's not how the body is engineered to move. And it's definitely not engineered to function. What it is engineered to do is an integrated movement model, which is central lines of tension and stability, which puts us in the best possible position to stay healthy and also optimize performance. And we get at that central line of tension with something called the pillar, which is essentially the shoulders, the hips, and the core working synergistically together to give us the best possible result, no matter what the goal set is.

Philip Pape: 3:30

Okay, cool. Okay, so you're you're one of those guys that gives nice, concise statements. I could tell you've been on a million podcasts. I love it. Okay, so so a center line of tension, central line of tension. I think that's great, especially the word tension because it it reminds me of various queuing protocols with, you know, whether just today I was doing T bar rows. I don't know if you saw it on Instagram. Not sure if I'm prop holding the proper line of tension, but that's kind of what I think about.

Dr. John Rusin: 3:56

I thought you were Arnold. I had it wrong. That's right.

Philip Pape: 3:59

Yeah, actually, you're supposed to have a little rounding on that one. But, you know, so let's talk about that a little bit more. When we say the central line of tension, are we are we talking about the context of everyday movement as we're walking around thinking about our posture and such? Are we applying this specifically to protocols in training, protocols in rehab? Like where does it apply practically?

Dr. John Rusin: 4:19

Well, for my clients and my athletes that I've worked with, the first skill that I try to teach them and at least have them hone in on some sort of requisite skill and connectivity of the pillar complex is being able to teach breathing and bracing. You know, breathing and bracing is super unsexy. The fact that we're sitting here talking about it on a podcast means that, wow, it must be important because that's the last thing that people want to do in their training. But we get it wrong when it comes to breathing and bracing. Specifically for pillar bracing, we never connect the ball and socket base joints to the spine. Every time we hear, hey, if you want to protect your spine while strength training, especially going heavy, brace the core, use your core, get your abs tight, all these cues, but they're incomplete because without managing the shoulder joint, which is the most mobile joint in the body, and then the hip joints, which are the second most mobile joints in the body, we never have that central line of stability. We essentially just have a little bit of tension through musculature that cannot connect to the ground, it cannot connect to weights, it cannot connect to your human movement system. So simply by going through and connecting these three integral areas, we give ourselves a superpower to be able to create internal tension, meaning that mask much musculature can create tension to be able to stabilize and centrate, essentially get those joints into optimal positions in order to function, but also in order to not take the wear and tear of your strength training, no matter the movement or the exercise. And instead, we direct that force and we direct that load right into the key musculature or the movement patterns that we want them to.

Philip Pape: 5:54

Yeah, and that that's definitely speaks to me from a physical perspective of creating that solid end-to-end system of transferring load. When I think of physics and biomechanics, I'm a very nerdy engineering guy. And our listeners are as well. So they do love this stuff. They do find it sexy, by the way, breathing and embracing. Okay. Love it. So I'm kind of jumping around my notes here, but I guess when it comes to breathing and embracing, is there a universal set of steps that could apply to anything anytime you need to do this? You know, we hear terms like intraabdominal pressure. We talk about using lifting belts sometimes versus not when training. Um, I know there are misconceptions when I see someone squat and they're like breathing out as they come up instead of holding the breath and things like that. Yeah. But are there are the universal tips somebody could take away, whatever they go and do in the gym next week, that they could apply?

Dr. John Rusin: 6:40

So the first thing that we need to do is have that connection point, be able to create tension around the shoulders, then the hips, then breathe in, brace around the core, and have this central line of tension. But from there, many times people come to me and they go, Oh, yeah, I know how to brace. Well, why are you visiting me with lower back pain and chronic shoulders that don't move immobile and are causing you pain on bench press? It's a matter of being able to actually take the activity at hand and brace the tension to that activity in a smart and common sense way. You know, the way that we're gonna deadlift for a one repetition max is far different than the way that we are gonna go in for a 25 rep goblet squat. We need to be able to have a dimmer switch on our tension and our overall bracing strategy. And that will be polar opposite for what our breathing is. So, breathing and bracing need to go together. It's like peanut butter and jelly. When you're going for a one RM deadlift, of course, we want to be able to brace maximally. We want to hold our breath and we want to move that load because we don't want a whole lot of moving parts as load-centric loading is going to be the focus. But as soon as we actually have to take in oxygen in order to survive a set or into survive our lives, we need to be able to make our pillar tight, be able to have common form and technique that holds up against the stress. But we also need to make sure that we have oxygenation that does happen indeed. So we go through different breathing and bracing strategies. Essentially, as load goes up, your breathing capacity goes down. As load goes down, your breathing ability goes up. And it's all about minimal effective brace in order to keep optimal mechanics.

Philip Pape: 8:22

Great. So effectively, there's I'm picturing an inverse set of curves, somewhat like a spectrum between full bracing, fully holding your breath because the load is near maximal, all the way to more of a work capacity, endurance, you need the oxygenation. So you, you know, the you don't need to brace to that extent. In fact, it could be counterproductive, which reminds me of my front squats this week, you know, whereas doing sets of 10 to 15, very different experience where you're getting a little bit winded versus sets of three to five on a back squat or something. So actually, I remember in your book, guys, anybody watching the YouTube, I was joking, that's kind of a tome coffee table reference book in all the best ways. His new book, Pink Free Performance, because I did read through this and I do, I do appreciate how you go over very specific context for each of these. You know, you have like ladders, you have different level types of movements and rep ranges where you breathe in different ways. So we don't have to go through all of that on the show today, but I do want listeners to understand that context matters and the breathing embracing matters. What I want to get into next, John, is training hard. I think you said in the book something like training pain-free doesn't mean training easy. It's it's training in ways that make you resilient without breaking you down. And a lot of people here modify for pain. I've got pain, I'm rehabbing this and that, and I'm gonna take it easier. I'm gonna go light. And unfortunately, a lot of doctors give advice that they don't specify what they mean, which side tangent, by the way. My my mother-in-law, her doctor just said, you need to start lifting now and heavier the better, or you're gonna be in a nursing home before long. So I appreciated a doctor saying that. But uh, what's the relationship between like training hard and training smart, if that's the terms we want to use? You know what I mean?

Dr. John Rusin: 10:01

Our industry has had a pendulum swing, I think, over the last decade or two. We went from, hey, just go out and kill yourself in the 60s, 70s, 80s, up until the 90s, hypertrophy at all costs, big lifts for strength and muscle building. Don't warm up, don't worry about anything. It's all gonna be good as long as you're as big as humanly possible. And then I think like late 90s into the 2000s, we got into this like quote unquote functional training trend. And everyone wanted to become a physical therapist. Everyone wanted to be a corrective exercise specialist. And all of a sudden, strength coaches and personal trainers were doing pseudo-physical therapy on the floor of the gym. And we forgot to actually train for the physical capacities that give us that health and longevity, strength, muscle, cardio and endurance, all these things that are heavy hitters. And at pain-free performance, we are the middle ground on almost every single thing because I've been at high performance athletics and sports, I've been in physical therapy, uh, working with people that are out of surgery or having market pain responses. And I do believe that halfway between many of these extremist polarizing swings is going to be the right approach for many. But really, what it means is that we need to be training as hard as possible in a concentrated and a focused way. And we need a standardized system in order to just do all the right things that we need to be doing for our health longevity orthopedically and systemically. But more so, we need to be avoiding the wrong things because it's avoiding the wrong things that actually push us forward in terms of our momentum decade by decade.

Philip Pape: 11:38

And what are those wrong things? What are those wrong things, John?

Dr. John Rusin: 11:41

Wrong things, man. There's a laundry list of these wrong things. But I think the number one thing that people tend to neglect is their well-roundedness in terms of just being a functional human being. Like I do believe that there are things that every single human, no matter if you're a child all the way up into an active ager, should be able to do with your body in terms of their movement patterns. But I also believe that there are physical capacities and characteristics that need to be able to be trained and maintained for a lifetime if we are gonna indeed thrive. And many times we don't have that mindset when it comes to our training. We have, hey, I am a hobbyist. I'm only interested in this one thing, and I'm gonna deep dive into this one thing until it breaks me down, burns me out, or leaves me with an injury that I have to then take a break from. We call that the planned meathead deload. We want to avoid all of these things and just simply be a little bit more well-rounded in our training so we can have the ability to be pain-free, not suffer injuries, but also just function more normally in our lives, being able to do things with physical autonomy that we were meant to do.

Philip Pape: 12:48

Physical autonomy. I love that. Yeah. Seriously, man. This lack of well-roundedness, we're all guilty of it, myself included. Some of it comes from time, right? Like, how can I do all the things? Some of it comes from, you know, passion where you get into something and you go all hog wild in it. Some comes from the dogma in the industry, I think, where the different camps say, like, this is all you just need strength. That's all you need. You know, like you don't, which, and and I've come from some of that. And the more I get exposed to these things and talk to guys like you, the more I start to integrate all this. But what I want to be careful of, because I could see it happening if you like, if you read your book and you have these train strength training or you have these training templates at the end and there's different days per week, different levels of experience, it can seem overwhelming if you've never done all of that. You're like, oh my God, I gotta do the warm-ups and I gotta do the foam rolling, I have to do this and that, the other. Where do you meet people in the middle when they're starting from that mindset?

Dr. John Rusin: 13:40

I think at the entry point is important. Like people are gonna have different entry points into the industry. Maybe cardio is your entry point, maybe doing a progressive powerlifting program is your entry point. But if you train long enough, you're going to be humbled. It is not a matter of if, it's a matter of when. And that humbling usually happens through injuries. It happens through performance plateaus. You can't quite get what you used to get. And then all of a sudden, people make the mistake of going, hey, you know what? I'm dogmatic. I believe in this one thing. What's the fix to this one thing? I'm gonna double down on this one thing instead of maybe going right or left of that one thing. Maybe if you're super into powerlifting, moving a little bit of hypertrophy and mobility will probably do you some good. If you're a cardio bunny, actually going into some functional strength training is probably the thing that you need. The rule of opposites definitely applies when it comes to hobbying inside of our industry. And I think that over time, people are pushed to become more well-rounded if they want to continue to do the thing that they love to do, which is training. I know that clients that I work with and many of my athletes, they're not worried about just training today. They love this. They are doing it every day because it's become part of them. And they want to make sure that they can do it into their 40s, 50s, 60s, 70s, and beyond. And that doesn't happen by changing what you're doing at 70 when you're all broken down and hurt. It it changes with what you decide to do today, just little by little, to be able to incorporate base things that, again, we should be able to do.

Philip Pape: 15:15

And I like the lateral. You mentioned lateral, I think in the previous response, but the the, because I think of lateral thinking, like getting out of the box, same thing, physically lateral, which means start from where you are today and then branch out. And it reminds me of some guys I follow who I'm actually running some of their programs for that very reason, like Jeffrey Verity Schofield. You know, he'll throw in cardio two days a week to his training programs. And it's like, it's in there. So if you're a lifter who's used to following programs, you're like, cardio's in there. I'm just gonna do it. It kind of gets you to do it. Or Brian Borstein, who's into more of the, I guess, the high rocks kind of level of a little bit more elite hybrid athleticism, Cody McBroom. We had Chris Gethin on the show. I think his episode's come coming out right before yours. And I think it's important because for a while, I personally was in the like the starting strength world, and there's a lot of value there for sure. I mean, I credit that with a lot of strength development. But then there is looking down on a con condescension against, you know, anything else, right? Like, you know, and I talk bad about CrossFit sometimes, but only from the perspective of when people do it, you know, have bad form and they're slamming out reps and they're getting injured, you know, there's something to be said for that. So with this context, then going back to the pillar, maybe that's where we can start. And we talk about like referred pain and why people have injury and why people have pain. Is this a compensation thing going on that's important to understand? Or where do we start breaking this down?

Dr. John Rusin: 16:38

I think 30 years ago, when you look at the greater body of evidence and research, and then you look at professionalized education within the universities, spent way too many years there. We thought that this pain thing was just a pure mechanical approach to movement. Hey, if you move in this way, you will have pain and you will get injured. And today that's laughable. You're just like, what? You know, like a biomechanics course showed me how to be pain-free for life. If that was true, we wouldn't be dealing with the chronic pain and injury cycle that we are currently seeing amongst our active population today here in America. So I think that pain is definitely a more complex conversation that we need to be having. But calling it what it is, I think the first line of being able to write yourself is being able to move well. And what moving well essentially means is moving well for your body, your particular body, your limb lengths, your joint types, your body size, and being able to take that and look at your skill set and be able to customize your positions and know very well that not everyone is going to look exactly the same way as they squat. Not everyone is going to be able to deadlift from the same height with a neutral spine. And not every running mechanic is going to be the same gate locomotion cycle. We are unique beings. And I feel like in every other aspect of the industry today, everything's so unique, the functional health cycle of unique blood testing, so we can get on supplements and drugs. And then it comes to strength training, starting strength, squat like this, overhead press like this, bench like this, deadlift like this. That's a great starting point. And I'm so happy that there is a strength emphasis coming into our industry today. But strength is more than just three or four cookie cutter textbook exercises. Strength is a physical characteristic, strength is not a specific exercise. And just having the epiphany of making that realization is huge for people's long-term health.

Philip Pape: 18:39

So when it comes to moving well for your body, then what I know some people will interpret that as okay, a squat's gonna look massively different. And I have to, where am I trying to go with this? People always go kind of to the extreme of this. And I think I think what you're saying is because of your anthropometry, because the angles are different, the principles you're trying to adhere to, which are universal, like I don't know, vertical bar path or efficient movement, yes, are going to translate to a different, you know, different angles between the hinge points or something like that, right? So maybe elaborate on that, thinking about the squat specifically. How does that how should someone be thinking about this when they're they hear this episode? They're like, okay, I'm finally going to start squatting, and now I want to practice in my living room without a bar. You know, what are they thinking here?

Dr. John Rusin: 19:26

It's cool because over the last 10 years, a pain-free performance specialist certification has certified over 20,000 personal trainers, strength coaches, physical therapists, and physicians in person in two-day certification courses. So, in that amount of people, you see a lot of different movement. And you not only see a lot of different movement from people, you see it from experts in movement, people that know their shit, people that have been training their entire lives, people that do this for a living. And I think when we first started running the certification, the squat was the first movement pattern that we were like, I know that there's some diversity in the squat pattern in terms of identifying somebody's most optimal squat pattern, but wow, after 10 years, the diversity that we see weekend to weekend in terms of our certification courses is absolutely wild. But this is where people tend to go wrong right off the bat. They go, okay, squat, only a barbell on your back, low bar position, and I'm gonna go feet shoulder width apart, and I'm gonna toe out slightly, I'm gonna look down at the ground, and I'm only gonna go to parallel because that's how real men squat. And it's like, no, hold on a second. You know, we've seen this with definitely a lot of the avatars that go through some of our screening and assessment protocols for the squat. So we're either trapped into, hey, I've been hurt from the squat before, therefore I'm gonna modify my movement patterns. And it usually turns into I'm too wide, big base of support, very low little range of motion, and kind of the parking break on the system. Or on the opposite direction, we see that people are like, hey, I've squatted this way for my entire life. Maybe I've developed it with a coach over time, and this is going to be a specific squat exercise for maybe a barbell sport goal. And neither of those are going to be optimal because again, we're talking about the squat pattern itself. When I say squat pattern versus squat exercise, I'm talking about somebody taking a shit into a hole in the most opportune position possible with joints stacked, centrated hips, angulation at the knees that makes sense, looking at ankle mobility, looking at spinal position and neutrality, and being able to organize the shoulders over the hips. And all of a sudden you're like, oh, okay, that is the squat pattern. But many people deactivate that squat pattern in chasing only exercises. So we tend to see that there are a couple key variables in people's squats. Yes, the stance is going to be wider or more narrow, the foot ABduction position is going to be out or in. And then we're going to see the knee is going to be forward or more vertical shin. And then we're going to see the torso angle is also going to be more forward or more erect. And then the thing that usually gets lost, because what I just described is very sagittal, plane and unidimensional. What gets lost is hey, what's underneath the skin? You know, what's underneath that glute? What is the hip type actually look like? Because that's where we tend to see the most amount of success in unlocking people's ranges of motion, getting them out of pain at their knees, at their hips, at their lower back, and being able to actually be strong and stable in their best squat position. And this is something that we go through in the pain-free performance book and also the certification course called the hip quadrant test. Essentially, we are able to type your hip in a matter of one to two minutes. You can even do it on yourself from the protocols in the book to be able to look at where you should actually be at the bottom of your squat and what the glass ceiling is for you to be able to get in this position and be able to build a skill set up so you can get into that position under load. And then the goal from there is to be able to train and maintain that at least one time per week in your programming forever. And then the other two or three times per week that you're doing a bilateral squat pattern, go into specialty, go in for some different muscular targeting, go in for some load capacity work at partial ranges. You know, the sky's the limit in terms of diversity. But what people are missing is that they're not doing the foundational pattern. And instead, they're only doing the partial pattern with specific goal sets, losing the pattern in its essence itself.

Philip Pape: 23:30

Yeah, what you talk about again in the book, and I'm happy to promote this book only because, guys, if you if you check this out, whether you get the digital or physical when it comes out, there's a lot of progression and context and building from essentially nothing up the ladder, not just with what John mentioned, range of motion and your own biomechanics, but also the types of movements and making it as accessible as possible and kind of working your way up. Like I could see myself on those different spectra where, okay, right here I'm close to the top. I'm pretty confident. Here I would probably step back a bit and work my way up. And then you also mentioned targeting different muscle groups and things like that. You know, I've had Andy Baker on the program several times. I love Andy because he he came from the starting strength world, but then has branched out and realized the importance of variety effectively, not for its own sake, but because of what you just mentioned. And we had a whole discussion about squatting and ultimately the million ways you could squat and different types of exercises. It's not really about that, right? It's achieving the right movement pattern. And look, if you have the right movement pattern and you progress over time, you're gonna get massive results, whatever squat patterns you decide to do. And a lot of that comes down to what's fun to you and what do you want to train with too, right? So anyway, I don't know where I'm going with all that, other than to say it makes sense to be methodical about this, whether it's buying your book, reaching out, going to YouTube, listening to podcasts, practicing thinking, being mindful. Let me ask you, John, when you're in the gym and you're training, do you listen to music or do you think with your thoughts? How do you, how are you mindful about your listeners?

Dr. John Rusin: 25:05

I've been uh quote unquote raw dogging my sessions lately. I know that was a popular term of like guys going on a transatlantic flight and not listening or watching anything, but that's what I've been doing. But I follow my own programming. I go inside of the Unbreakable app and I subscribe to it just like every one of my other members does. And I find liberation in that because I know I'm gonna be getting the diversity of movement patterning that I need. I get the distribution of volume throughout the patterns and the exercise selection that I need. And I also kind of have the same goals as everybody else. You know, nearing 40, being a dad that coaches baseball and basketball, you know, being a husband and a business owner, I got 60 minutes to hit it. And I know that I need to be focused. I need to be on rest periods. I have different key performance indicators, strength movements that I'm chasing, but I also want to have that feel of moving well, being mobile, and also like tapping into an athletic potential, even at my age, where I never want to lose track of athleticism and power. So, like the programming that I do right now, I stay very focused in on it because I just follow the app and I do exactly that. And then I track it. And there's a reason that that works for accountability and just staying on track because today it's super easy to go to Instagram and lose 10 minutes between a set. And it's definitely easy to program hop while you're doing an actual program just because of all of the very superficial resources that we have at our fingertips.

Philip Pape: 26:26

Yeah, so raw dogging it, following a program, making judicious use of your rest periods and not getting distracted while you lift. And I can raise my hand being guilty of that sometimes, where I'm like, okay, I'm an entrepreneur and I'm losing weights. Go, do both at the same time, you know? But uh, so okay, maybe roping back a little bit to the framing of this episode on pain, specifically where people get a lot of the pain, which is low back or shoulders or knees. Maybe, maybe looking at the low back, that comes up a lot. Low back fatigue, low back pain. And then sadly, a lot of people just have something go, something pop, have to have a surgery. I know someone, she's a power lifter. I've always thought she's she's lifted great and and she's been competitive and she had to have a microdyskectomy recently, but she also got a lot into running and rowing, which she hadn't adapted to as much as her lifting. So who knows where the issue was? People are like, what do I do? Where do they start thinking about protecting? I even like the word protecting sometimes because it sounds like too much in a shell, like safety, but basically fortifying back.

Dr. John Rusin: 27:31

Two patterns that are going to be super back intensive and also back sparing are going to be the hip hinge pattern and the single leg pattern. We call it the lung at pain-free performance. But when it comes to knee pain, when it comes to lower back pain and really shoulder pain, those are going to be the big three in our industry today. Like we have to have a good foundation of biomechanics. Like we've already talked about the foundations of finding your unique biomechanics that work for you. But I didn't add the next layer to this, which is once you find your unique biomechanics, cool, that's your central line on a spectrum. Be able to add diversity and range of motion and different muscular targeting and different rep ranges and different rep speeds and all these different methods and modalities that we can start throwing on the system strategically over time, not all in one single training week, is going to be the recipe for long-term success. But with the lower back specifically, I tend to see that people neglect the hip hinge pattern because they go, I've hurt myself deadlifting before. Well, what's a deadlift to you? Well, it's a conventional stance with a barbell on the ground, of course. And I am hoisting that thing up at all costs. And in our research at pain-free performance, we've seen that people are unable to keep a neutral zone of spinal neutrality 93% of the time when doing a conventional barbell deadlift off the ground. And this is out of a more pure hip hinge pattern. So essentially what happens to people is that they think this arbitrary exercise is the be-all end-all of everything. But what if you're one of the 93% that can't even access that bar off the ground? You're going to be doing one of two things. You're going to be using mechanics from the squat, pushing your knees forward, rounding your lower back, dumping your pelvis in order to get yourself wedged into that position. Or you're going to be going through and putting undue stress directly on the spine, being able to try to force in a hip hinge that you simply don't maybe have the range of motion or the mobility or the hip structure to be able to achieve. And there's very rarely a time where we bring somebody right from, hey, you had pain, hey, you had an injury. Let's go right back to picking something up off the ground. Many times this is the pattern that is in dire need of a rebuild because people have not just pain and injury backgrounds mechanically, but it really fucks with your mind. When you blow out Your back and it is deteriorating to your lifestyle, not just your training, but your lifestyle, you're going to think again before you go back in and train that, or you're just going to be lost and able to really take the most out of the highest yielding movement pattern that we have. But I would say about 40 to 50% of people today attempting to strength train are neglecting, if not disusing fully the hip hinge and the deadlift. And this is really problematic because we say that it is the most injurious movement pattern, but it is also the movement pattern that will protect the most. So where do we go on this yin and yang? And it's back to a strategic rebuild of trying to put the pieces together stronger and healthier and more customized to your specific needs.

Philip Pape: 30:46

The yin and yang is a great way to describe it because I sometimes have trouble communicating to people that a deadlift done wrong could hurt you, and a deadlift done right could save you, right? It's the same principle. And of course, and you called it the highest yielding movement pattern we have, which again, I I strongly I love the deadlift. Personally, I love it. I think my body is built for it way more than the squat, and that could just be an excuse not to get my squat up. But it is, it is a fun lift. When you said the, I think you said the safe zone around the line of neutrality. Uh, in your book, in your book, you have diagrams showing, for example, somebody hinged over and you have this zone with different colors, and there's that safe zone and then the buffer zone. And it's it's quite liberal. It's not like you have to be super afraid that it's just this rock solid line. And once you go out, spring your back falls apart. But you said 93% of people can naturally stay or have trouble staying.

Dr. John Rusin: 31:40

They are unable to access the bar for a conventional deadlift with spine neutrality. But the interesting thing in that section of pain-free performance about the neutral zone of stability of tension around the spine is that there are many different factors. It's not just a biomechanical model. Our zone of neutrality goes out and it comes back in based on your preparation at hand, based on your skill, based on your sleep cycles, based on your past injury history, based on your training loads and volumes, based on an exercise being a mismatch for your unique biomechanics versus something that actually is a good match for you. There are many different variables that actually affect your neutral line of tension and your zone of neutrality. And this is something that I was super proud of in the book because I haven't heard a whole lot of people talk about this before. They're so they're so black and white when it comes to spine neutral at all costs. You know, you hear the kettlebell community going perfect spine neutral while kettlebell swinging. What do you mean? There's 17 to 24 degrees of spinal flexion at the bottom of a kettlebell swing, even in perfect quote unquote execution. So, what are we really talking about here? What we want to be able to mitigate the risk away from is having rapid force, eccentric flexion of the spine under load. What that essentially means is like, hey, you're out fishing, you got a fish on the line, the line goes like this, it bends the line and it bends your hook, and all of a sudden you're like, whoa, okay, I got that fish. But you don't want to do that to your spine. That is something that when we do see injuries, they can happen in many different types of ways. But I tend to see the injuries happen specifically on the hip hinge pattern with that rapid force, eccentric moment as we're coming up out of the hole off the ground. Usually that first like two to five inches off the ground is where people tend to lose their central line of stability. They lose their spinal tension, they lose that zone of neutrality, and they end up, if they are having all those other factors line up correctly, unfortunate for them, they end up with an ache, pain, injury, flare-up, whatever you want to call it.

Philip Pape: 33:46

Okay, that's really important. So we want to avoid rapid force, eccentric flexion on the spine. Is that dumbing it down rounded back?

Dr. John Rusin: 33:54

When you're quick pulling rounding of the back. And it's usually going to be anywhere from like the lower back or the L and S spine. That is where the vast majority of these are going to happen. There's a natural fulcruming point that happens in the lower lumbar spine. And that is something that is, again, natural, but we don't want to be loading it and we don't want to be losing that line of tension, especially under load. And I think that as like injurious as that may sound, this is really easy to avoid with what we started with, with just being able to brace and breathe properly.

Philip Pape: 34:27

Brace. Yep, for sure. Yeah. So L4, L5, S1 is where you hear a lot of these injuries and issues. And if you look at the spine, you can kind of see that S shape occur around there. But you also mentioned that it moves with your adaptation, with your recovery capacity. And I get attest to this. We talk about, you know, the differences between fat loss and when you're not in a deficit, when you train of being even more attentive, not that you shouldn't always be, but that you're more susceptible to some of these things because of the fatigue and the recovery capacity. I know personally when I get distracted or I go in and I try to be, you know, do an ego lift, right? You kind of get the same thing. So the adaptation I wanted to ask about because you hear a lot of criticism or hot takes on Instagram. You know, look at this guy who can deadlift 900 pounds, but look at that rounded back. That's awful. And I'm like, okay, he's adapted to that and he's doing it and he hasn't injured himself, but is he about to snap his back? Like, what are we talking about?

Dr. John Rusin: 35:21

Taking these people that are absolute beasts, probably a world record holder has been deadlifting for 20 or 30 years at this point. There's really no huge young guns in the game. They've been able to again adapt and stress the system in a strategic way, extraordinarily strategic way, in order to again go at a specific goal for a sport, which is totally different than lifting for health and longevity. But I have personal clients that I work with that you would look at their deadlift form and be like, oh, he just hoisted 950 and he had a rounded and kyphotic spine at the thoracic. And then maybe he's probably even rounding at the lumbar spine. But the big difference between that rounding setup for these guys that are absolute anomalies, if I'm just calling it out, is that they never get pulled into deeper flexion rapidly. They maintain that flexion point and they don't have a net positive flexion point at the spine. I think that's the big differentiation factor. That, and they've done deadlifting so much volume with so much intricate technique work that they are masters of this specific skill out of this specific position. And their body has normalized it in terms of the way that they have callused their system.

Philip Pape: 36:38

Yeah. Yeah. The the speed at which the angle changes and the force gets applied is a direct function of the maximum force that's getting applied, right? F equals MA. I think about discussions I've had recently with lifting buddy of mine, how much we love pauses these days. You know, we're both in our 40s and we like pausing at the bottom of a lot of our movements. Take out the stretch reflex, only because sometimes that is where you're prone to have those high levels of force from the stretch. Not that it can't be also beneficial and you can build the resilience and adaptation, but it's it's what came to my mind.

Dr. John Rusin: 37:09

Anytime that you take a movement pattern, whatever movement pattern it is, squat bench, deadlift, whatever, and you take it to its X amount of available range of motion, and then you play and you dabble between compensatory range of motion and an authentic range of motion, you're in this intermediate range where all of a sudden you don't have the active stability neurologically or mechanically that you probably should have. And you're using compensation, whether that be momentum, whether that be using like the tendoosseous junctions to be like rebound and ramp up out of a squat. Whatever it may be, those are things that maybe not line up well for your long-term health. You know, people are always like, oh, well, what do you think about the butt wink in a squat? Like, I hate it. Like if your goal is to feel awesome and just like be jacked at 45, like probably the butt wink has no place in your programming. But if you're gonna go to the CrossFit games at 45 and try to compete for a medal, like that's a totally different story. So there's always two sides of the coin, but I do believe that anytime that we can be a master of our movement and then we can dominate a movement and then diversify that movement little by little to be able to add variance. And that is gonna be a more well-rounded spectrum of the human movement system.

Philip Pape: 38:22

For sure. Yeah, no, I I love that. And you also mentioned the lunge when we talk about the hip and shoulders and the that pillar. And it's funny because I just I just started a new cycle of a program that does have walking lunges in there, which I like, but I also they also have one and a half walking lunges, which I like quad burners, right? You go go down, go down, come up halfway. You know what it is. Just explain for the listener. Go all the way down, come up halfway, go back down. So you've just like use the lengthened position without relieving much tension, and then come back up into the walk. And you'll find you can't do nearly as many of those as the full as the single walks. But where does the where does the lunge fit in here? Because it is one of your six.

Dr. John Rusin: 38:59

The lunge is the most detrained. You know, the hip hinge, nobody wants to do. Yeah. Ignore our ignore. Uh Dave Tate, an ex-client of mine and a mentor of mine, said it best when I was working with him at Elite FTS. He goes, John, this sucks. I had him doing split squats. He goes, This sucks because it's half the amount of weight and it's twice as hard. And I'm like, man, you just said it. You just said it. And that line is right in the book, too. But when it comes to the lunge, I think it's misunderstood and it's also neglected because it's going to be hard every single time. Uh, unilateral-based lower body work is going to be very demanding in terms of the muscular system, the stabilization system, the neurological system, and the sympathetic system is really going to be heightened up because the balance component to it. But I think just from the mechanics alone, it differentiates itself. It's not just a squat on one leg. It's not just a hip hinge on one leg. It actually is its own distinct pattern. So the lunge pattern has all the best properties from the squat, which is associated with a positive shin angle, a knee forward uh position, and be able to have quadricep dominance. And then also it's a hip hinge at the hips that integrates hamstrings and glutes and lower back. So we actually have maximal amount of load capacity in single leg with many of these patterns, like the Bulgarian split squat, walking lunges, that feel natural to the body as well, because when we function on single leg, that is where we spend 85 plus percent of our movement lives on. You know, we're not functioning in our daily life doing bilateral positions at the squat or at the hinge. We are definitely maneuvering in asymmetrical lower body stances. So this is one that I tend to put the most amount of volume distribution in for almost everybody I'm working with. Probably the highest with athletes, the second highest with like the 35, 40 plus population, and then the third highest amongst people that want to get super strong unconventionally, usually coming from more of a barbell background. But usually with a lower body day, we're distributing anywhere from 50 to 70% of total volume in asymmetrical lower body stances, which is essentially our lunch pattern from pain-free performance.

Philip Pape: 41:12

Okay, yeah. And that is definitely higher than the traditional most people would see. Oh, yeah. Um, and it sounds brutal, but I get it because reverse lunges, I don't know if you put step-ups in there, but to me, those are hard too. And, you know, what split squats, we all there's there's memes galore about split squats, you know, being the worst of the worst, right? But again, we have to change our mindset and think like how beneficial that is. I mean, you mentioned stability and balance and everything. It's like raise your hand if you're listening and you've tried a walking lunge and you like, you know, are just trying to stay up straight, let alone with a bar on your back, if you're not doing dumbbells. So yeah, I thought that was interesting because a lot of people reduce the movement patterns to exclude that. And I think it I I am coming around to your way of thinking here. I think it's really cool.

Dr. John Rusin: 41:56

Yeah, like just going over the years, chasing like we we call it functional meat head. Functional meat head is we're gonna take some like easy-ish exercise, something that you'd see in physical therapy, and we're gonna push it to the absolute limits. The chase over the last like five years or so has been Bulgarian split squat five RMs. How heavy could you possibly go out of different loading positions? I've gotten it to the 150s in each hand for five reps down to the side, and I've also goblet Bulgarian split squat 190 pounds in front of the body for five reps. So when you do things like that, you're like, man, that doesn't sound fun. But you learn a lot about the body's natural stability points and where we can actually maximize strength recruitment from in those particular patterns. Knee forward position plus the hip hinge is gonna be strong, it's gonna be stable, and it's also gonna be able to be able to mitigate risk of knee pain long term because we get into the deep knee flexion, and it's gonna be able to spare the spine because we are on an asymmetrical stance at the lower body, and essentially our pelvis can rotate in opposite directions, and the stability factor is far different than in the bilateral counterpart. So when you think about doing stuff like that, you're like, yeah, this is where this pattern makes sense. If you're just setting up for a Bulgarian split squat for a set of five with a 10-pound dumbbell, and you're like, oh, this seems easy. I can keep a vertical shin, I can put my knee forward, I can do whatever I want. That's fine. But when you actually push things to absolute maximal load or maximal challenge, your body will find its natural, natural writing mechanism, put you in a strong and stable position. And the thing I want people to take away from that statement is where you are most stable is probably where you're gonna be the strongest. And where you are the most stable and the strongest is where you're likely to be the safest.

Philip Pape: 43:38

Right. Got it. Okay. Yeah. And so again, we have to train hard, is also part of the uh part of the equation. And that was a good segue to knee pain because you mentioned the knee flexion and how this supports the knee. We talked about Pateller, you know, the tracking and the knees forward. There's a lot of, I'll call it mythology around that because people will reduce the, you know, form check to, oh, your knee's traveling too far forward, not thinking about the system. So, what are your thoughts on that? And in general, knee pain, maybe the use of knee sleeves, like the whole ball of wax.

Dr. John Rusin: 44:08

One of the biggest mistakes that people will make if they have that generalized chronic front-sided knee pain is that all of a sudden they'll go and Google it and they'll be like, oh, I need a knees over toes program. I need to be forcing my knee forward in the most biomechanically disadvantageous position possible while it's hot, while it's hurting. And sissy squats. Yeah, yeah, sissy squats. Uh, there's a bunch of different exercise variants with that. But that's the opposite thing of what we would recommend that pain-free performance. If you are dealing with hot knee issues, like, hey, this thing actively hurts right now and it's been kicking my ass for a number of weeks, if not months. That's the time where we pull back and we actually back down into some simple biomechanics. If we can manage where the knee is relative to the ankle, that is going to take the distribution of our loading through our body and it's going to put it onto different key musculature into different patterns in different ways. So the more vertical we can keep the shim, the more the posterior chain is going to be involved. Hamstrings and glutes, if we can get stronger at both of those places, that is going to be putting us in a nice position long term to have pain-free knees. But we don't want to just stay there because I think many times people just end up staying there. Their squats are vertical shins, their lunges are vertical shins, everything that they're doing is vertical shins. And guess what? When we walk, we don't have a vertical shin. When we run, when we sprint, when we change the direction and being an athlete, there is never a vertical shin. There's a knee forward position and there's a dominancy of being on the toes versus the heels. And that's something that we need to grade and scale back into. But naturally, we need to be moving back into a more knees over toes position in a graded and concentrated way, maybe week by week, program by program, and being able to have access to that because long term, that is going to be huge. But going back to just like being able to get your knees healthy, managing that knees over toes position is going to be huge. Strengthening the posterior chain that actually supports the stable line of tension from the knee is going to be huge. So hamstring work, ton. I see that super neglected. And then gluten, hamstring work together. That posterior chain emphasis is going to be one of the best things that we can do for our knees. Once we do that, then we can start to scale some of the stress back in with novel positions of the knee actually translating forward.

Jerry: 46:27

Hey, you just wanted to give a shout out to Phillip. I personally worked with Phillip for about eight months, and I lost a total of 33 pounds of scale weight and about five inches off my waist. Two things I really enjoy about working with Philip is number one, he's really taken the time to develop uh a deep expertise in nutrition and also resistance training. So he has that depth if you want to go deep on the Yes with Philip. But if also if you want to just kind of get some instruction and more practical advice and a plan on what you need to do, he can pull back and communicate at that level. Also, he is a lifter himself, so he's very familiar with the performance and body composition goals that most lifters have. And also, Philip is trained in engineering, so he has some very efficient systems set up to make the coaching experience very easy and very efficient. And you can really track your results and you will have real data when you're done working with Philip and also have access to some tools likely that you can continue to use. If all that sounds interesting to you, Philip, like all good coaches, has a ton of free information out there and really encourage you to see if he may be able to help you out. So thanks again, Philip.

Philip Pape: 47:40

Cool. Yeah, gluten hamstring work. Everyone loves that, especially the ladies. Hamstring work is is definitely fun because there's there's ways to isolate it both with extension and flexion. And I know I've been doing length and partial RDLs lately, and those can be brutal because you can some people can overload them, some people actually find them heavy, heavier. It's kind of kind of interesting how that works between individuals. What are your favorite hamstring movements?

Dr. John Rusin: 48:02

RDL is gonna always gonna be the king. I would argue that the RDL, if you're to do one exercise for the rest of your life, probably has the highest yield. You get that stretch on the hams, you get the flex on the glutes at the top, you're able to have mobile full range of motion down through the posterior chain, and you're able to have a connectivity through your upper body. Like it is awesome. And it also gives us the ability to train the core and the spinal position at an isometric. Like it is a super high yield. But I'm a big fan of hamstring isolation work as well. Like, not always going to be jumping into the machines doing a machine circuit like it's global gym. But when you go to seated and line hamstring curl machines, those are two of the only machines that I will routinely be able to program in because there's really nothing else like them in terms of open chain mechanics at the hamstrings that will be far different in terms of the mechanics and the properties of the joints and the stabilization patterns than standing on two feet and doing something like an RDL or a split squat with a hinge emphasis or something that lengthens out the hamstrings. But really, we like to also have diversity in terms of our tool sets there. Anytime that we can get sliders out, anytime that we can get suspension, bandwork, that is gonna be huge for hamstrings. And remember, the hamstrings aren't just one muscle. The hamstrings are hamstrings, and then we have adductor groups of the hamstrings as well. So anytime that we can get out into the lateral planes of motion, that is gonna act for hamstring stabilization at the hip down into the knee even more. So you really can't go wrong having big, strong, meaty hamstrings because they're not only aesthetically pleasing, but they are so functional for almost every goal, whether it be trying to mitigate low back pain, being able to bring up your glute hypertrophy, or just protect your knees long term.

Philip Pape: 49:48

And they make your legs look good. Uh, let me tell you, because it's like the triceps of the legs, right? You know, people think it's the biceps, it's the triceps that make your arms look big. But uh no, that it's funny you mentioned the sliders and stuff. Because I, again, I used to do CrossFit and they had the rollers and stuff. My my daughter's doing a little physical therapy for her. She dislocated her knee not long ago. And they're like, Dad, have you ever heard of sitting in a chair and pulling with your legs? I'm like, Yeah, I bet that hurt that you feel that in hamstrings, don't you? Because, you know, it's just even doing that, it's you can see how weak you are sometimes when you do those. Uh, that movement, which is more like the leg curl type movement. I know we're getting low on time. I did want to talk about the shoulders, honestly, because I personally have had rotator cuff surgery. There's probably a lot of things I could have done different myself over the years. I am where I am, but it's a very epidemic thing among lifters who are older, bar none. I mean, shoulder issues all over the place. Some people avoid overhead pressing altogether. Some people are in, you know, shortened range of motions, using the pausing, using having to vary up their grip and width and all this. Um, trust me, I know. So when it comes to the shoulder pain, are there, again, movement pattern issues that people are doing too much? Or is it trying to go too hard on overhead doing it the wrong way? Like, where does all this come from?

Dr. John Rusin: 51:00

We have an obsession with the mirrored muscles. I think it's as simple as that. The mirror muscles are gonna be your abs, they're gonna be your biceps, and of course, the chest. And if you're not training chest on Monday, are you really strain training? And as funny and as stupid as that sounds, if you go in and watch any single gym across the world as I've been to, you're gonna see that the bench press is the number one exercise for every male in that gym on any given day. And all of a sudden, you go years, if not decades, of overtraining the push and neglecting the backside of the body with the pull pattern. And we tend to run into some problems, especially now because we are so glued to handheld technology with our phones, we're on our computers, we're sedentary more than ever before. And we have a bigger need to actually reverse these sedentary postures with the pull patterns that put us into extension, external rotation, and AB duction at the shoulders. And this is the opposite of what most people are training. One of the first things that I do with clients is that I audit their volumes. I audit their volumes across squat hinge, lunge, push, pull, and carry patterns. And when it comes to the upper body pushes and pulls, if I see anything that's under like a two to one ratio between pull and push, I'm like, yeah, that's the first thing that we're gonna go after here is we're gonna redistribute the volume to put more volume on the backside of the body in terms of rowing and pull downs and push-ups and direct lat work. And then we're going to probably keep the volume about the same or pull it back a little bit in terms of your push pattern. And the push pattern is gonna be more diversified than just the barbell bench press on a flat or if you're functional, going up to a 45 degree angle. And that tends to really be humbling for most people because they go, oh shit, you know, I need more face pulls, I need more rows, I need more unilateral work in the pull pattern. And I need to be able to diversify away from just the barbell. I love barbell bench pressing, and I would say 60 to 70% of my clients will barbell bench press. But we also are training many different uh ways in terms of landmine pressing and dumbbell pressing and working with bands and having kettlebells. And there's so many different ways to be able to train the push pattern. And the easiest one is the most accessible to everybody, is simply doing push-ups in a closed chain, getting your hands on the ground and allowing your shoulder blades to actually start moving again. That is going to most likely be the pattern where we start the rebuild process from if you're dealing with shoulder pain and past injuries.

Philip Pape: 53:26

So much wisdom here, guys, if you're listening. I mean, I'm just like smiling inside, John, because a lot of what you're saying, I've had to learn through hard knocks. And I, you know, I'm not saying I know everything you know, but it just resonates so hard with me because for me personally, for anyone listening who's been following my shoulder rehab journey, you know, things things got kind of acted up about a year after my surgery and things started to take a turn with bursitis and issues like that. And I'm still working through, but a lot of the advice I got and talking to guys like you, not you, but guys like you, were trying to do more pulling movements and try to really strengthen the back part of the upper body. And, you know, just today I was doing neutral grip pull downs and T-bar rows, and like I'm really getting into more of that. I like that two to one ratio because it's a nice prescriptive way to think about it, where you, you know, if you're doing six movements, then four of them should be pulls rather than pushes. And what are what are your thoughts on like barbell rows and yeah, let's, you know, movements like that that have other translation to the posterior. Do you find them even more effective? Or can they be kind of limiting because of the weight? Like, what are your thoughts?

Dr. John Rusin: 54:32

I program almost everything. I do not program traditional barbell bent over rows.

Philip Pape: 54:37

I saw that in your book. I saw that in your book. I wanted to ask about it.

Dr. John Rusin: 54:39

One of the reasons that I don't is not that I think everyone's gonna be injured first time that they do it. That's not the way the body works. But I do think that it's just not the best way in order to train the back directly. When we're thinking about holding a hip hinge, we just mentioned that a lot of people have trouble hip hinging in general, but now I'm gonna ask you to hold it for 30 to 60 seconds in a hard isometric and not give up the position whatsoever. And then I'm gonna put your hands in a fixed position on a barbell in an arbitrary distance apart, and I'm not gonna allow natural rotation to happen at the hands nor the shoulders. And then I'm gonna put it into a bilateral stance that is gonna be dependent on your lower back position and you staying upright. And then I'm gonna put max load on because anytime we see a barbell, it's like, how much can we load up on this thing? And many times it just turns into a sloppy movement, it turns into half rep ranges of motion, a lot of momentum being used, a lot of the recruitments happening at the lower back versus the musculature of the upper back and the lats where we really want to target. And it's something that there's just like so many other awesome variations that we could possibly go into for muscle, for strength, for resilience building of positions, that it just doesn't make a whole lot of sense for me. I will absolutely use positions and I will use different variances of bent over rows, whether it be single arm, whether it be supported, whether it be chest supported. There's a lot of different ways to do it. But the standard barbell bent over row, I know this seems like sacrilegious to many people listening, but that's just not a high risk-to-reward exercise for a vast majority of people for shoulder health and for lower back health.

Philip Pape: 56:18

Yeah, I wanted to ask because I saw that in there and I don't totally disagree. I mean, I've spent years trying to follow people like Alex Bromley, for example, who takes it very seriously on how to do the position and making sure you're up above the ground so that you could properly get in the form and everything. And then guys who, you know, are like, Loyal, let's use the easy car, let's easy bar, let's increase our angle and let's do power versions of that so that you go to a dead stop. There's lots of things. And maybe there are some other benefits like the isometrics, but you get that from deadlifting as well. So I hear you, man. And I personally have really started to enjoy like T-bar rows and cable rows and things like that, and really feeling it hit those spots more directly. But teach his own, obviously, if you can progress safely and do it and you want to do it, we're not saying not to. As we wrap up, and we're a couple minutes past, apologize. Is there anything else you wish I had asked? I know there's a lot we didn't get to, but in this context of just pain-free with those key joints, anything we didn't cover that's on your mind?

Dr. John Rusin: 57:16

I think that as we get older and as we have more mileage on our system, we will all be pushed to be able to evolve and change so we can continue to do what we love to do. And you said something that really resonated with me. It was like, yeah, I had to gain this wisdom because I had shoulder pain. I had to go into surgery, I had all these injuries over the years, but I love training and clearly we do. But I think pain-free performance is a 600-page resource on things that I have made mistakes with, things that I've been mentored by, and the system that you could simply run to plug and play a pain-free performance model that simply keeps you healthy and works for your body uniquely. We don't have to give up what we love to do. I would never tell anyone that. Leave that to the doctors and the poor physical therapists out there. What we want to do is be able to line you up to do what you want to do forever, but it does take a little bit more concentrated work and a smarter system to achieve that.

Philip Pape: 58:09

A smarter system to do what you love to do forever. Love it, John. All right. On that note, where do you want people to find you besides? I'm going to promote it for you again. Pain free performance, the book. I think it's still available for pre-order because it doesn't come out till, well, around when this episode comes out. So look look it up. We'll include the link to that. Uh, any anything else where you want them to reach you, John?

Dr. John Rusin: 58:28

Any social media is at Dr. John Russin on Instagram, on Facebook, also on YouTube. And you can check out our websites over at painfree training.com and also drjonrusson.com.

Philip Pape: 58:41

All right, we'll include those links and uh the handles in the show notes. Thank you, Dr. John Russin. It's been a pleasure. Really, this was even better than I expected. I expected a great conversation, but we really covered a lot of unique, helpful areas for the listener, and uh, they're gonna love it. Take home some good action from this. So thank you so much, John.

Dr. John Rusin: 58:57

Thank you so much for having me. This was fun.

Why You Can't Lose Weight on 1200 Calories (And What To Do About It) | Ep 387

Ready to escape the low-calorie trap and eat 400-800+ more calories while maintaining your body composition?

Join the 10-Week Recovery Diet Workshop on Tuesday, October 21st at 12pm Eastern and get the complete protocol workbook plus 30 days in Physique University for just $27: https://live.witsandweights.com

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Are eating very low calories, yet the scale won't budge, your energy is in the tank, and you're terrified to eat more?

Discover what's going on with your metabolism, why "just eat less and move more" stopped working months ago, and the precise protocol for escaping this trap without gaining fat.

Learn why reverse dieting doesn't work plus the 5 foundations that determine whether increasing calories will succeed or backfire.

Main Takeaways

• Metabolic suppression isn't "damage"

• How eating less leads to fewer calories, reduced training performance, and hormonal downregulation

• 5 critical foundations must be in place before increasing calories

• Recovery dieting vs. reverse dieting and how long it takes to truly recover

Episode Resources

• Join the 10-Week Recovery Diet Workshop – Tuesday, October 21st at 12pm Eastern ($27, includes replay, 20-page protocol workbook, and your first month in Physique University) at https://live.witsandweights.com

Timestamps

0:00 - Why eating less stopped working
0:49 - Recovery vs. reverse dieting
4:56 - The Suppression Spiral explained
8:17 - Five foundations you must fix first
19:12 - How a recovery diet actually works
24:33 - Common failure points to avoid
27:55 - Do you really need recovery?
30:16 - Workshop invite and final takeaways

Why 1200 Calories Isn’t Working (and How to Fix It)

If you’ve been eating around 1200 calories a day, training consistently, tracking everything, and still not losing weight, you are not broken. You are adapted. Your body is protecting itself from a chronic energy shortage by slowing down how much energy it spends. This is not metabolic “damage.” It is metabolic adaptation, and it can be reversed—but only if you rebuild your foundation before you eat more.

Here’s why “just eat less” stopped working and the precise system to recover your metabolism without gaining fat.

The Suppression Spiral

When you stay in a deficit too long, your body defends itself. The process looks like this:

1. NEAT drops. You subconsciously move less throughout the day. This can cost you 200–400 calories or more.

2. Training quality declines. Lower intensity and effort mean less stimulus to keep muscle, less calorie burn, and less progress.

3. Hormones adapt. Thyroid, leptin, and sex hormones decrease. Hunger increases. Your body becomes more efficient at storing energy and less willing to give it up.

4. Energy and recovery collapse. You feel exhausted, moody, and stuck.

At this point, cutting calories again only makes things worse. You enter a feedback loop: eat less, adapt more, lose nothing, feel worse. You cannot diet your way out of this. The solution is recovery, not restriction.

Why Reverse Dieting Often Fails

Most people try to solve this by adding 50–100 calories a week, hoping metabolism “catches up.” That rarely works because calories aren’t the problem—your foundations are. Without recovery in place, increasing calories simply adds fat.

Your metabolism can only use new energy properly if five specific foundations are in place.

The Five Foundations Before Increasing Calories

1. Sleep quality and consistency

Sleep is recovery. Inconsistent or poor-quality sleep keeps you in a stressed, sympathetic state. Restoring 7–9 hours per night, with the same bedtime and wake time, is step one. Until you fix this, extra calories will do little besides raise cortisol and water retention.

2. Non-training stress

High work or life stress keeps cortisol elevated and pushes your body to store energy. Basic stress management—breathing, walks, sunlight, and downtime—creates the hormonal environment where recovery can happen.

3. Structured strength training

Your muscles are the engine that burns energy. Without regular progressive strength training, new calories are not directed toward muscle repair and growth. Even two consistent lifting sessions per week make a big difference. Three to four is ideal.

4. Daily movement

Outside the gym, you need movement. Aim for 7,000–10,000 steps per day or at least more than you do now. Movement signals your body to stay metabolically flexible and active between workouts.

5. Nutrition quality

Protein and fiber are your anchors.

• Protein: 0.7–1.0 g per pound of body weight

• Fiber: 25–35 g per day
  Add balanced carbs and fats from whole foods. Carbs are especially helpful for recovering suppressed metabolism and restoring thyroid and hormone function.

How the Recovery Diet Works

Once these foundations are solid, it’s time to bring calories back up—quickly, not in tiny reverse-diet increments. The goal is to restore your metabolism to its actual maintenance level, not to creep there over months.

Steps:

1. Find your current maintenance. If you’ve been at 1200, your true maintenance might be 1800–2200 depending on size, sex, and activity.

2. Jump calories to the estimated maintenance. Expect 2–4 pounds of water and glycogen gain in the first week. This is not fat.

3. Hold steady for 8–12 weeks. Track strength, energy, sleep, mood, and performance. When they improve and weight stabilizes, your metabolism has normalized.

4. Use precise tracking. Tools like MacroFactor can estimate your actual expenditure in real time so you can adjust accurately. Use code WITSANDWEIGHTS for a free trial.

During this period, expect gym performance and recovery to skyrocket. Mood, libido, and sleep improve. If you lost your cycle, it often returns. When your body is running well again, you can safely pursue fat loss later from a stronger baseline.

Common Failure Points

1. Impatience. Recovery takes 8–12 weeks, not two. Stick with it.

2. Inconsistency. Sleep, training, and movement must happen most days, not occasionally.

3. Sneaky dieting. Do not cut calories mid-recovery because of short-term scale fluctuations. Water and glycogen changes are not fat gain.

Signs Your Recovery Diet Is Working

• You can eat 400–800 calories more per day without fat gain

• Strength and work capacity rise weekly

• Mood, focus, and digestion improve

• Resting heart rate drops, and you wake up rested

• Biofeedback markers like energy and hunger normalize

Who Actually Needs a Recovery Diet

Not everyone stuck on the scale is metabolically suppressed. You truly need recovery if you’ve been on extremely low calories for months, weight has not changed for at least four weeks, your training performance is dropping, and you have clear symptoms like fatigue, low libido, or disrupted sleep. If you’re simply losing slower than expected, you may just need patience and precision.

Your metabolism is not broken—it’s smart. It adapted to protect you. You can restore it by addressing the foundations first, then applying a structured recovery diet. When you do, you’ll eat more, feel better, and eventually lose fat again, this time without destroying your energy or your relationship with food.

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Transcript

Philip Pape: 0:00

If you've been eating 1200 calories, training consistently, doing everything right, and the scale's not budging, your energy is in the tank, and you're terrified to eat more, because the last time you did, you gained weight. This episode is for you. I'll show you why your body has adapted to suppress your metabolism, why just eat less and move more stopped working months or years ago, and the precise protocol for escaping this trap without gaining fat. You'll discover what recovery dieting is, why most reverse dieting attempts fail, and the five foundations that determine whether increasing calories will work or backfire. Welcome to Wits and Weights, the show that helps you build a strong, healthy physique using evidence, engineering, and efficiency. I'm your host, Philip Pate, and today we're gonna talk about one of the most frustrating positions you can find yourself in. You're eating very little, you're training really hard, and you're getting nowhere. I've worked with lots of people who came to me eating very low calories. This might be around a thousand to fourteen hundred for female, maybe 1500 to 1800 for males, and they're doing a lot of the things right. They're lifting maybe three or four days a week, they're walking every day, they're tracking, eating enough protein in general, but something's stuck. And I'm not talking about scale weight, I'm also talking about lifts stalling, feeling exhausted, not having the energy. Maybe our blood works okay, maybe it's not. But all you're thinking at this point is what do I need to do? Do I need to eat even less? Do I need to add more training or cardio? And also, what's up with reverse dieting? Is that what I need to do? Do I need to eat more? Because last time I tried that, I gained five pounds in a week, right? Stories like that. These are not rare stories. I hear them a lot. And I think the online advice about some of this stuff is either useless or actively harmful. A lot of people still throw around the terms metabolic damage, that you need to heal your metabolism and or that you need to fix your metabolism. Some people just say flippantly, you know, you know, it's you're just eating too much. You're probably not tracking. You probably don't know how many calories you're eating, you just need to eat less. Some people, you know, say that the only way to do this is reverse diet with, you know, five, add 50 to 100 calories per week. That's how you do it. And then there's people that say, okay, just eat at maintenance for a while and everything's gonna kind of work out, which doesn't sound too far from advice I might, I've I sometimes give, which is we need to change one variable at a time and try to stay at maintenance, but there's a different approach to doing that the right way versus just, you know, trying to eat the same calories you've been eating, thinking that that's maintenance. Okay, we're gonna get into some of the nuances here. I think a lot of this advice is just missing the most important thing, which is what's happening to you and your body and why just adding calories doesn't always work without certain foundations in place. And I wanna be clear on that. Reverse dieting is often not the solution. It may be a little piece of it. And if you've ever heard my content before, you know that I don't even use reverse dieting. We do something called recovery dieting. We're gonna talk about that today. Before we do, I do want to share what some members of Physique University have been experiencing lately because it connects directly to what we are talking about. So, Richard, he said, quote, after six weeks on the program, I found the tools and info quite a game changer. Very happy with the empowerment gained and the progress so far. So, empowerment, I shared this because of that word and not feeling helpless and actually understanding what's going on inside of you with you as an individual so you can build your system. Ajana shared, quote, I've noticed I'm not getting fatigued early in the day, and my energy level has written. Again, I shared this because it's exactly what happens when your metabolic function is working properly instead of being suppressed. Notice I didn't say damaged, okay? Suppressed. And then Haig said, quote, winning, feeling better, pain and illness gone, and I'm lifting what I was 10 years ago, now to push harder. So when your body has enough energy, when it's recovering enough, everything improves. This isn't just about the scale and and often it has nothing to do with the scale. And yeah, you can push hard once things aren't where you need them to be. So if you're looking for this kind of result and transformation, support, guidance, that's why we have Physique University. You can join at witsandweights.com slash physique, get access to our community, form checks with me and Coach Carroll, all the tools you need to build your physique and more importantly, your health system, your fitness system systematically. So I just wanted to share those. And now I want to get into what the heck is going on when you are stuck at low calories. Okay. And I'm gonna call this the suppression spiral, just because it sounds cool and I like alliteration. The suppression spiral. All right, this is not about metabolic damage. The term gets thrown thrown around a lot, but it is not a real thing. It is not a medical condition, your metabolism can't break. Your metabolism adapts. And adaptation is normal, it happens to everybody, it's okay, you expect it to happen. And it can be reversed as well. But understanding how is going to explain why you today might feel terrible and might have trouble losing weight. And again, we don't care about the weight loss in and of itself. We care about improving your health and body composition. And then weight loss tends to follow as a piece of that, and not always, because you don't always need it to. But in this case, we're talking about people who are trying to undergo some form of fat loss with a calorie deficit, and they are stuck and so they feel like they can't go up or down. Okay, when you eat in a calorie deficit for an extended period, your body adapts and it conserves energy, in addition to your metabolism dropping because you're losing weight. But in this case, we're gonna assume you've stuck, you've gotten stuck trying to lose fat and lose weight on the scale. Okay, and what we want to understand what's happening, whether you should care, what you should do about it. So your body adapts to conserve energy hormonally at the cellular level. And this happens when you stay in a deficit too long or you eat too little relative to your activity. Here's what happens: first, your neat, your non-exercise activity thermogenesis, actually drops. A lot of it is unconscious. Okay, and this is all the movement you're doing outside of formal structured exercise. Studies show that meat can drop by two to four hundred calories per day. And this is actually very common for what I see. I see a lot of people in several months of dieting, their metabolisms will drop several hundreds of calories. Sometimes more than this because of added factors like the weight loss. And it's not that you consciously decide to do this, it's your body does this automatically, sometimes causes you to move less or move with less effort, or there's so many things, even if when you even when you try to keep your step count up that can move this the other direction. Second, your training performance suffers. You're not pushing as hard, you're, you know, taking longer to rest because you don't have the work capacity. Maybe you're not adding weight to the bar, to the to the lifts, you're not going up in weight. Not all of this is bad in a fat loss phase. Like you're expected to not have as much energy, but if it's really stalled out and regressing, this could be a challenge. This means, you know, you're not working as hard, you're also burning fewer calories during the workout, right? Even though we don't care about that as a metric, it's an end result of training less, training less hard, getting less of a training stimulus to hold on to your muscle. All of that is happening. Third, your hormones downregulate, your thyroid function goes down, testosterone, leptin. When leptin's low, you feel hungrier, you move less, your body becomes more efficient at storing energy, which we don't like, right? Which means it's less efficient at giving it up. And all this together means that your actual energy expenditure, your metabolism drops quite a bit. It can drop substantially. If you were, say, burning 2,000 calories a day before you started the diet, you might be down to 1500 or 1300 or 1200 just to maintain your weight as you are right now. Okay. And it's not because your metabolism is damaged, but because your body has adapted. This is a temporary state. Most people respond with a gut reaction. They do things that make it worse, such as cutting calories more, right? Adding cardio, trying to push through with more discipline and willpower. And this just makes it worse. You end up in what I called it earlier, the suppression spiral. You eat less, your body adapts, the loss stops, you eat even less, your body adapts more, you're doing more cardio, then you're eating very little, you're feeling terrible, you're making no progress, and and and. And then the psychological toll is huge. It is massive. You then feel like a failure, right? It seems to affect your self-worth, your even your self-respect. You see other people eating more, looking better. You can't understand why don't those rules apply to me. I'm different. Something is wrong with me. But the problem is not with you. The problem is the approach. It always is, guys. It's always the approach. And that is really empowering because you can fix it. You can you can't diet your way out of metabolic suppression. Almost by definition, you can't. Because eating less is what got you here. You've got to have a different strategy. So, where do we go with this? All right. That's the suppression spiral. Now I want to talk about the foundation, the problem with your foundation, okay? Because it really does come down to basic principles, first principles, foundations. And if eating less isn't the answer, what about eating more? Well, this is where a lot of people jump right to reverse dieting. You know, you get a newbie coach who's like, yeah, we just need to increase your calories, right? That's what they learned in their certification, and that's the solution. You're gonna increase your calories, you're going to boost your metabolism, and you're gonna have this higher set point, and everything's gonna be hunky-dory. And so we're gonna add, I don't know, 100 calories a week. Hope the fat loss will resume. And yeah, that never works. Almost, almost never works. I mean, there's it pretty much never works. And the reason is foundational. Your body's ability to handle increased calories without gaining fat depends on five specific factors. And if these aren't in place first, then adding calories will just make you gain weight. And you're like, huh? Haven't you talked all the time about recovering your metabolism? Yes, but you have to do it in conjunction with these foundations. That's the point. It is not just about increasing calories. That is the important point I want you to take away. So, foundation one, and a lot of people will have this at the base of their pyramid for the for good reason, is sleep quality and consistency, especially consistency. When you're chronically under-recovered, your body is in a stressful, sympathetic state. And that's a big, big problem because sleep is almost like food to your body. When you're depriving yourself of sleep, even adding more food isn't necessarily going to mitigate that, because the sleep is another massive source of recovery and energy and taking off that stress that's causing you to have this suppression in your metabolism. Foundation two is non-training stress. And I say it that way because training itself is a stress, but it's a good stress. If you have stress from work, from your relationship, from major things in your life, maybe with your family, with your finances, you've got this elevated cortisol all the time, right? That plus increasing your calories, your body's gonna say, Oh, give me that energy for fat storage. Please give it to me for fat storage. And I say it that way because if you gain weight at all, you might think, okay, I'm gaining some muscle and fat. You might gain a little bit of muscle. Chances are though, if you don't have these foundations in place, you're gonna gain a lot more fat than you'd like. Okay, a lot more fat than you'd like. What we're trying to do here is as you eat more, we're gonna, we're gonna tie this all together in the end. These foundations allow you, your body to recover your metabolism without gaining much, much, if any, fat at all, or even any weight at all. Like you, you might even you might even start losing weight, which again is not the end, not really the goal. It's just the the pleasant end result is a drop in body fat. So basic stress management is going to be huge here. Foundation number three is of course your training consistency and progression. It's interesting. Some people, you know, they'll join our program. It's not very common, but they'll join our program and when they do the intake, I say, How many training sessions are you doing? They say zero. My brain immediately goes to, oh boy, I'm excited because this is the biggest low-hanging fruit for you right now. You're doing zero. If we just go that go to one a week, man, will that just massively improve everything you're doing, your health, your strength, your mouth, even just one a week. I mean, ideally it's three or four, but we need to start where you're at. Okay. And you've got to be following a structured program, a structured program where you are progressing, if not every week, then most weeks. And it has to be consistent. I think every day you need to be doing something for your physical health in terms of movement, but from a strength training perspective, that's ideally three to four weeks, three, three to four days a week, and at a minimum two. But you know what? One is still better than zero. So I we need to make it consistent and then start to build from there. The muscle that you have, the stimulus, stimulus you're providing through that strength training, is telling your body what to do with that extra energy in such a good way. In such a good way. If you're not training at all, then all these things are gonna be a problem, are gonna continue being a problem. Okay. Foundation four is restoring that suppression of your neat, right? Your non-exercise stuff. So if you're barely moving outside the gym, you're still gonna have a lot of issues recovering. This is where bringing that step count up, you know, seven to 10,000 steps is a good target. But again, bringing it up from where you are. And also getting up off your chair if you're a desk, if you have a desk job and do that multiple times throughout the day, you know, moving, getting outside, walking your dog, you know, going for 30 to 60 minutes of cumulative movement throughout the day, independent of your strength training. And then foundation five is of course, nutrition and nutrition. And this primarily is not just the energy overall, which is calories, but the quality of your food, starting with protein and fiber, and then having balanced foods with plenty of fats and carbs as well. And carbs are gonna be massive here, guys. Let me tell you. If you've got to suppress your metabolism, suppress metabolism and what you're trying to do is recover, carbs are going to be your friend. Absolutely. When combined with training, they're gonna help your hormones, they're gonna help your recovery. Very become very efficient. Okay, this is not the time to be doing keto and low carb. Trust me, it's not. I've seen the difference. You're gonna recover your energy much faster this way. So nutrition is really important from all of these perspectives. And I've seen dozens, hundreds, thousands of people trying to reverse diet without these foundations. All they're doing is increasing calories. Well, of course, it's gonna blow up in their face, right? Sometimes they gain weight, sometimes they don't, but then nothing is recovering. So they're just eating a little bit more food, and their metabolism is, I'll say, slowly increasing, but they still have the energy problems. They are still gaining more fat than they would like, right? Like their physique, their body composition is not improving. And it's kind of a weird state to be in because that's the worst situation, is where you're, you know, recovering your metabolism, not gaining weight on the scale, but also not improving of the things that you really, really care about. You know, sometimes people will feel a little better because they're eating more food, but then they're having trouble with the body composition, right? So you get like these weird corner cases when you're not doing all the foundations. But when you are, then the recovery diet works dramatically better. And I say recovery, it's recovery from our suppressed metabolism, whether you've just been living that way through lots of restrictive eating, or you've done a fat loss phase intentionally and now are trying to come out. Hopefully, if you've done a fat loss phase, you've already done these things beforehand. I am mainly speaking to the person that's not even there yet and you're just trying to recover for the first time. Right. And now you can actually add those calories pretty aggressively and feel better even faster and have your body composition stay stable or improve as you're doing that. And then when you later on return to a deficit, you're coming from a much better place. And honestly, I don't want you even in a deficit for a while until you go through that recovery process. And that's the next problem is that it takes time, it takes focus, it takes patience. I'm not gonna use the word discipline, it's consistency. And you can do this in a very manageable, achievable way, one step at a time, two steps at a time, you know, just whatever works best for your lifestyle right now with the low-hanging fruit to fix your sleep, to manage your stress, to train, to move a little more, right? I know sometimes it feels overwhelming because it seems like all these pillars. At some point, you do need to get to the point where you're doing something with each of these pillars. But right now, pick the thing that is your go-get, as they say. All right. So now that we've talked about the suppression spiral, we've talked about the five uh foundations you have to have in place. Let's now talk about the recovery diet approach. And I haven't talked about it in a while on the show, and that's why I wanted to make this episode. What is a recovery diet? All right, it is not the same as a reverse diet. A reverse diet is about slowly adding calories to maintain your weight after diet ends, to try to get back to your metabolism, but you're doing it in a random guessing sort of way. That's really all it is. You're doing it with less precision and it takes longer, and you might overshoot, and all of those challenges that you've heard of with reverse dieting. A recovery diet is just a very precise protocol to restore metabolic function immediately, as quickly as possible, to where it should be right now. Like, what is your optimal set point right now? We won't know what it is until we get there, but we do know what it is right now, and we know that if we're under-eating to that, we can quickly go back there and not worry about gaining weight. All right. You are definitely gonna gain a few pounds of water weight and glycogen, but that is not body fat. Just to put that out there, because that's another fear people have. The goal is to get your body back to firing and burning more calories, maintaining your body composition, feeling better, feeling healthier, feeling stronger, all of those things. So we're talking about going from let's say you're 1200 calories right now and bringing that up to it, might be as high as 2,000 calories without gaining any fat or weight. Now, again, you're gonna gain some weight of water weight, but not of fat. Maybe you'll gain a little muscle as well. And then letting that stabilize before you do whatever your next phase is, which might be fat loss, maybe it's building muscle, maybe you want to maintain it there. But the point is we need to recover to that point. And you're not gonna do it instantly. It could happen, you could do it in a few days, and then when you start to recover, you may need to go even higher. And so there are some parallels to reverse dieting, but it's a lot more precision or a lot more precise. You have to track your intake accurately, weigh your food, log your food, log your weight, and use it uh either a calculation or in my opinion, MacroFactor is the one app on the market that can estimate your expenditure from what you've logged. And then it you will literally know the number to go to tomorrow after you've done that. Now, that's after you've been tracking for several weeks. You'll know what metabolism your metabolism is right now and how many calories to increase. Go download macrofactor, use my code WITS and weights, all one word, to get a free trial for that. It's excellent for this because it adjusts your expenditure based on your trend and intake for that accurate recovery diet. But you also have to track your body composition, your strength, right, your lifts, all the things you should be doing anyway. And then remember, the scale is going to go up during that recovery, especially at the beginning, because of water, glycogen, digestive content, sodium, like you're just eating more, all of that. You should look pretty much the same, if not better, in the mirror. It's because sometimes when you fill out the muscles of that glycogen, you end up looking a little bit more pumped. You know, it depends on what you already have there, of course. If you've never lifted weights, you're not there yet. But in general, you're gonna look a little better, actually. And then the timeline is really important here because while you can jump calories immediately to get out of the deficit, literally one day, you're gonna need eight to 12 weeks, sometimes longer, depending on how suppressed your metabolism was to get to full recovery. So it's kind of like recovery hops. Okay. If you were eating 1200 calories for six months, you might need two or three months to get back to your 1800 or 2000 or 2200 maintenance. And you don't want, I know you don't want to hear this, but your body doesn't work on the timeline that you want it to work on. It's gonna work on what nature's gonna do. And you're gonna, I'm not speaking properly here, but you're going to give it the best shot to recover as quickly as possible. So success looks like eating three, four, five, six, up to maybe 800 calories more, maybe a thousand, you know, if you're a bigger guy, for example, than when you started. So I would say probably four to four to six or eight hundred calories is like a nice big window for a lot of people that I see. And then your weight, your body weight has stabilized after that initial water bump and it's kind of stabilized. Maybe it's a little bit higher than that, but your measurements should be about the same. You should look the same or better, your energy should be significantly improved. Your training performance should be going up, right? You're adding weight or reps. Your recovery is faster, feels better, your mood should be better. For the ladies, your menstrual cycle should be normal again if it was irregular. Now, these aren't claims I'm making, these are just the shoulds that should happen all things equal, you know, not counting any other condition someone might have. And then when you return to a fat loss phase later, you're gonna be set up much better for success. And you probably won't have to diet to those calories either, because you're eating more fiber and you're moving more, you're burning more calories in general. This is different than those fit fluencers saying, Oh, you gotta do is reverse diet, and then you do a fat loss phase and you could eat more calories than last time. Okay, it doesn't work that way, like in that short timeline without doing all the foundational things and without potentially having built a little bit of muscle and metabolic capacity as well. Okay, don't look for quick fixes, it's going to backfire. But if you do this the right way, then when you do have fat loss phase, you're not gonna feel destroyed and you're not gonna be losing muscle. And that's the key, one of the key differences. And then you're gonna have energy for your workouts, your life. You could probably do it in a sustainable way, not have to go as aggressive. Now, everybody's different. Everybody has different levels that they start from and end from and different histories. So the protocol has to be individualized, right? Some people can add those calories more aggressively or bigger jumps. Others need to go slower because of how it makes them feel or the practicality of it, right? Just trying to eat more food. So the specifics depend on your situation, your foundations, where you are, what you're able to incorporate now, and of course how your body responds. All right. So if what I'm describing so far sounds kind of like your situation. If you're stuck at low calories, if you're not sure how to go from where to go from here, if you need a systematic way out and it to improve all of these factors, I'm running a live workshop October 21st called the Recovery Diet Workshop. It's actually called the 10-week recovery diet workshop because I'm going to walk through a full, it's like a 20-page workbook that you're gonna get access to afterward that is gonna help you assess exactly whether you are suppressed, what is the week by week progression to get out of it with a recovery diet as we head to the end of the year. So it's perfectly timed 10 weeks to take you into the new year, and then you're ready to go if you're looking to do a fat loss phase in the new year. And so it walk, we're gonna walk through, you know, how to adjust based on your response, all the pitfalls, all the scenarios, what to do when. You're gonna have it all mapped out. And you're also gonna get your first month in physique university as part of the whole thing for no extra cost. So to me, it's a no-brainer because you're gonna have the workbook, the workshop, and of course all the resources and support to get started and get some accountability and feedback, which for many people that's what they need is the accountability to make it happen. So that's 27 bucks October 21st. Go to live.witsandweights.com. That is Tuesday. That's next Tuesday, our 10-week recovery diet workshop. So if you're stuck with low calories, if you want a system for improving that and coming out the right way and not these random reverse diets, grab your spot, link is in the show notes, live.witsandweights.com. I'll share it again at the end. Now let's talk about some of the common failure points. What makes people fail? All right, because even when people understand this recovery diet concept, and I I know people will parrot it back to me and will define it pretty well, but then there's these three major failure points in reality that prevent people from doing them successfully. The first failure point is, of course, impatience. You knew I was gonna say this, right? This is hey, I added calories for two weeks, I didn't see things change, or I had that bump in weight that Phillip said would happen. It's all fluid, but I freaked out and I cut back. Look, your body's not gonna recover in two weeks. It's just not. I'm sorry, it's not gonna recover in two weeks if you've been doing this for any length of time, right? Because what got you here took many, many months. I'm not saying it's gonna take the same amount of time. It's just gonna take some decent amount. So that's the first failure point is impatience. That's why we have to focus on the metrics that we care about the most, which is increasing our strength in the gym, increasing our nutrition quality. Guess what? All the foundations that I talked about. The second failure point is guess what? Inconsistency with those foundations. So consistency really is what I mean here. And that is not just sleeping well for two out of the seven days of the week, but sleeping well for four, five, six, hopefully all seven, but more than you were before. Walking, you know, getting your X number of steps every day. If you can't get 12,000 steps a day, don't aim for 12. Aim for six or seven or eight or nine. Whatever lets you get that minimum viable product of steps, and then push beyond that when you can. Same thing with training. You've got to get into the gym consistently. Your body's gonna respond to consistent signals. So consistency itself is a really important skill that we want to develop here. That's a whole separate topic, but it's very important. Not discipline, not willpower, but really habits, behaviors that are ingrained in your life because they're achievable in your life. Okay, and then failure point three is trying to diet in the middle of recovery. Raise your hand if this is you, okay? You're you're like four weeks in your recovery, you see the scale up a few pounds, and you're like, I'm gonna do a rapid fat loss phase, or I'm gonna just quickly go on a deficit for a week or two, Philip won't mind, you know. And it undermines the whole process, right? It undermines the whole process. You can't simultaneously recover your metabolism and diet, because the dieting itself is what got you here and it's causing the suppression. And if you can't mentally handle that, then I don't think you're ready for a recovery diet yet. Although I think everybody should strive to become ready for one. So those are the three failure points. And I think, like, if there's one surprising takeaway today that that you might find is most people who think they need a recovery diet don't actually need one. And what I mean by that is a lot of people who think they're metabolically suppressed are just they're in their calorie deficit and they're impatient. And I say that with a caveat because your metabolism should adapt no matter what. It's probably gonna drop. But I'm talking about the people who've been dieting for like six weeks. And maybe you're not losing weight as fast as you want, but you're losing it gradually and you got past that initial bump that deceives everyone into thinking they're gonna lose weight a lot faster than they do, right? You can't, you kind of kind of ignore those first few weeks of dropping water weight. And, you know, things are gonna slow down a little bit, but then they kind of should kind of get in a steady drop. And those people who are making that slow but steady progress, even if it's like a quarter pound or pound a week, I often see them think that they are in a plateau or their metabolism is so suppressed they can't make progress, but they actually are chipping away at it. And then it's a matter of going back to my previous things and of patience and consistency and just continuing, right? Actually being suppressed has very specific indicators. Like you're at an ungodly low number of calories for multiple months, and you shouldn't you shouldn't have to do that. You know, your weight has been absolutely completely rock solid stalled for like four or five weeks past the initial drop, even though you're doing all the things the right way. Or your energy is in the crapper, or your training performance has declined noticeably, or your sleep quality has decreased, right? It's all the biofeedback stuff. Even for women, you've lost your cycle, your sex drive is gone. Those kinds of things. If you're eating in a reasonable deficit, right, there's there's a range of what that means. But like if you're a woman, maybe that might look like 1600 calories you're eating. Like, I'm not gonna freak out over that. And your weight loss is still going down, but it's just maybe not as fast as you want, which is a very common scenario. You don't necessarily need a recovery diet. Now, if you're done, if you're ready to come out, if you don't want to diet, if you want to go to maintenance, that's perfect for a recovery diet, right? But I'm talking about people who think they're not making progress when they are, if that makes sense. And and that's more of a patience thing, a precision thing, a tracking thing. It also an experience thing. If you don't have those, if if You do have the markers of like you things are really suppressed, just not great. Then this is one of the most powerful tools available so that you don't stay stuck for like months, years, or whatever and just feel terrible. We don't want you that way, do we? We want you feeling great and looking great and doing all the things you want to do in your life. So the problem is usually not that you need to eat less, it's this metabolic adaptation. And the solution is, of course, recovery, which means establishing the five foundations we talked about today, and then incorporating that with a recovery diet protocol. And then you're gonna, you know, eat more, feel better, be able to lose fat effectively when you're ready. So again, if you're thinking like this is exactly what I need, please join me next Tuesday for the 10-week recovery diet workshop. I'm teaching the complete system, the assessment process, the week-by-week protocol, the troubleshooting framework. And this is literally a 20, I don't hope this is not overwhelming, but it's like a 20-page document. And I did it that way this time because I literally wanted to give you something to take home where you can then map it out exactly as needed. And then we could help you implement it or give you the support you need along the way as you hit those roadblocks that we all inevitably intend to hit. So you're gonna get all of that. Your first month of physique university, all of that 27 bucks. Registration is open now. Link is in the show notes or go to live.witsandweights.com. And if you found value in today's episode, please share it with someone else who's stuck in low calories, who's complaining about this, who feels like there's no hope or no way to go, because there is. Until next time, keep using your wits, lifting those weights, and remember that your body is capable of remarkable adaptation in both directions. Okay, the direction that we don't like and the direction we want to recover. You just need the right approach, the right protocol to guide it again. This is Philip, and I'll talk to you next time.

Body Positivity vs. Healthy Habits (You Can Have Both) | Ep 386

Track your nutrition without shame or judgment. MacroFactor learns your metabolism and adjusts to what's actually happening with your body with no guilt, no moral judgment, just data. Try it free with code WITSANDWEIGHTS: https://bit.ly/philipmacrofactor

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Can you love your body and still want to change it?

For years we've been caught between two extremes: the body positivity camp that says any discussion of weight is harmful, and the traditional fitness world that makes you feel guilty for not being lean enough.

You want to respect yourself, but you also want to get stronger, healthier, maybe change your body composition.

Learn why removing shame doesn't mean removing high standards, how fitness capacity matters more than the number on the scale, and the system for building health while respecting your body right now.

Discover the framework of dignity-first performance engineering that lets you pursue measurable health improvements without moral judgment about your body.

Main Takeaways:

• Self-acceptance and measurable health improvements are not in conflict

• Stigma and shame actively make health worse

• Fitness and strength predict health better than BMI

• Use behavior-based data, not moral judgment

• Coach yourself with neutral observation instead of criticism and practice self-compassion to improve adherence

Episode Resources:

• Review the podcast by October 15 for a chance to win 3 months free in Physique University Mastery Track ($261 value). Leave a review at Apple Podcasts... EVERYONE who leaves a review will get a gift from me :)

Timestamps:

0:01 - The false dichotomy: body positivity vs health goals
5:03 - Dignity-first performance engineering framework
9:06 - What the research actually shows
18:33 - Build your health dashboard
28:19 - Behavior-based nutrition approach
31:49 - Coaching yourself without shame
36:09 - Fit at any size (with caveats)
39:20 - Stop letting weight dominate

Body Respect and Body Change Can Coexist

You do not have to pick a side. You can respect your body today and still pursue strength, health, and physique improvements. The conflict shows up only when we attach moral value to weight or treat one number as the whole story. Here is a clear, practical way to hold self acceptance and measurable progress at the same time.

The false choice that keeps people stuck

One camp says talking about weight is harmful. The other camp pushes weight loss as the only finish line and often wraps it in shame. Both miss the point. Health is behavior driven. Shame does not improve behavior. Progress comes from clear actions that support strength, fitness, and metabolic health, without tying your worth to a scale reading.

What the evidence actually supports

• Stigma harms health. Weight stigma predicts worse cardiometabolic risk, higher stress, and more avoidance of care.

• Fitness matters at any size. Cardiorespiratory fitness and muscular strength reduce mortality risk across BMI categories.

• Behavior focused methods work. Programs that emphasize health behaviors and mindful eating often improve blood pressure, lipids, and eating patterns, even when weight barely changes.

Dignity first, performance engineering

Keep standards high for behaviors and biomarkers, remove shame from appearance. Treat your body with respect while you engineer better performance.

What to track, not just what to weigh

Use a dashboard that blends performance, composition, and health.

• Performance

  • Strength progression on key lifts

  • Work capacity, set quality, recovery between sets

  • Resting heart rate, simple pace or power benchmarks

• Body composition

  • Waist circumference

  • Body weight trend, not day to day noise

  • Simple methods like the Navy estimate if you want a body fat proxy

• Metabolic health

  • Lipids, A1C or fasting glucose, blood pressure

  • Vitamin D, magnesium, iron status if relevant

  • Repeat labs a few times per year if you are changing a lot

• Biofeedback

  • Sleep quality, energy, mood, digestion, hunger patterns

Coaching yourself without shame

• Replace self criticism with neutral observation. “I missed two lifts this week. What blocked me, and what will I change.”

• Judge the process you control, not the outcomes you do not.

• Use approach goals. “Add a protein source and a vegetable to each meal,” rather than “Stop eating junk.”

• Practice self compassion. Kind does not mean permissive. It means you stay in the fight without quitting on yourself.

Nutrition that respects your body and drives results

Keep it behavior based, then add precision as needed.

• Protein first. Aim for 0.7 to 1.0 grams per pound of body weight per day.

• Fiber daily. Roughly 25 to 35 grams from plants and whole foods.

• Carbs support training. Center carbs around workouts to refill glycogen and protect performance.

• Fats for hormones and satiety. About 0.3 to 0.4 grams per pound is a practical starting zone.

• Mindful meals. Fewer screens, slower eating, attention to taste and fullness. Use tracking as information, not judgment.

Training that builds capacity without feeding shame

• Strength is the base. Four days per week, 10 to 15 hard sets per muscle group, most work one to two reps from failure.

• Cardio supports health. Two to three sessions per week. Mix easy zone 2 with short intervals. Walking counts, swimming and cycling are joint friendly.

• Progression with margins. Add small amounts of load, reps, or pace. When life stress spikes, keep the habit alive with shorter sessions.

A simple two month plan to put this into practice

1. Pick two performance metrics that you will improve. Examples, five rep squat and resting heart rate, or a 1 mile walk test and a push up test. Test now and retest in eight weeks.

2. Set two daily behaviors. Examples, hit protein and fiber targets, or walk 8 to 10 thousand steps and get seven hours of sleep. Track adherence, not perfection.

3. Choose one body composition metric for context only. Waist or body weight trend is enough. Look at the trend every two weeks, not every day.

4. Schedule labs with your clinician in three months if you have not done a baseline in the last six months. Use results to adjust, not to panic.

5. Practice one self coaching habit each day. Swap one self critical thought for a neutral observation and an action.

The bottom line

Self acceptance and self improvement are not rivals. Respect your body now, train like an athlete, fuel like you value your health, and judge success by the behaviors and markers that predict a longer, stronger life. When you do this, body composition usually follows, without shame and without the all or nothing trap.

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Transcript

Philip Pape: 0:01

Can you love your body and still want to change it? For years you've been caught between two extremes: the body positivity camp that says any discussion of weight is harmful, and the traditional fitness world that makes you feel guilty for not being lean or ripped or shredded enough. You want to respect yourself, but you also want to get stronger, healthier, maybe change your body composition. And there's a tension between these two worlds where you feel like you have to choose between self-acceptance and self-improvement. Today we're proving that you can have both. You'll learn why removing shame doesn't mean removing high standards, how fitness capacity matters more than the number on the scale, and the system for building health while respecting your body right now. Now, I'm gonna show you why this isn't actually a conflict at all and how you can engineer an approach that honors both self-respect and measurable progress. Now, this episode, I wanted to create it because of multiple listener questions I've received over the past few months, all asking variations of the same thing. Is it wrong to want to change my body? Am I betraying body positivity, right? The concept if I try to lose fat or gain muscle. Now, they didn't say it that way specifically, but I'm kind of paraphrasing because this is a legitimate question. The vanity question, I'm trying to look good, I'm trying to improve my physique. You know, I don't want to have my belly spilling over my genes, however, viscerally you put that into words. And I think they do reveal this big problem today and how we talk about health, bodies, about change, about personal improvement. And I think we're gonna try to solve that problem today using evidence, using clear thinking, and using a framework that you can use. Before we get into it, I want to share a few quick wins from Physique University over the past couple weeks just to show you how positive this can be when we are pursuing health. And the first one is the highlight of my week was that a few people told me I look healthy and vibrant. The biggest one of all is that on Friday night I went to a fancy fundraiser dinner and had my picture taken. When I looked at the picture, I know my body size has not changed yet, but I liked the picture. First time in almost 18 years. Now, again, that's kind of straddling the, you know, how I feel versus how I look dichotomy we're talking about today. The second one, I feel like consistency in getting to the gym and whatever level of diet I've achieved are big wins. I'm proud of my increasing, increasing all my PRs this week. So again, there's more of a focus on improvement from a strength perspective that will translate to physique improvement, and yet that isn't really the point. The third one is I sense your passion for helping people. It comes through in the response time you give us as clients and the attention you're putting into helping us grow. You're really excited about training. I get more excited to train because of your excitement for it. It's infectious. I'm really liking the experience. So I wanted to share all of these because they're really more focused on the process of improvement, and that is gonna be key to what we talk about today with the topic and the framework. So let's talk about this. What is this false dichotomy? Let's name the problem clearly. On one side, you have this body positivity movement. At its core, it is about pushing back against appearance hierarchies, I'm gonna call them, right? Like it depends on where you are on that hierarchy and what kind of social media you use and what age you are and what that means to you. But basically, this movement, in my opinion, is trying to remove moral judgment from the size that you are with your body, right? I think that's a pretty fair definition. And guess what? I think that is a valuable thing. I think that shame doesn't help anybody, it doesn't improve health, it can undermine health, it is not, it's just not helpful to the situation. On the other side, you have, I'll say, traditional weight normative fitness culture, right? Which is irks me the most, I would say, about what I see on Instagram, for example, or in the way coaching programs are framed. And this is where we use weight loss as the primary or only endpoint. I mean, all the all the commercials I see for now for Noom and microdosing, and it's all about weight loss, right? All the GLP ones, it's just what they talk about. And I think that sometimes, well, it definitely works from a marketing perspective, but I think it's not super helpful at all when it comes to how an individual receives this because it is packaged with shame-based messaging. It is usually tied into some sort of rigid rules or system and the implicit message that you are not acceptable until you hit a certain size or number on the scale. And I've talked many times on this show about how I don't even like that phrase weight loss because it doesn't tell you what you're trying to achieve, which is improved health, body composition, you know, mindset that comes from a variety of factors that we measure, not just weight. In fact, weight loss can be a countermeasure if you're using it the wrong way. So here we are, stuck in the middle, and you kind of feel like you have to pick one of these or cozy up with one of these camps. Maybe you don't, okay? Maybe I'm falsely ascribing this to you, the listener, but still you're aware of this dichotomy. And either, you know, on one hand, people are saying just accept your body as it is, which kind of implies that you're giving up on your health goals. It really does, because by definition, if you improve your health, you're gonna improve your physical representation of that health, is the way I'm gonna put it, right? That's so that's on one side. And the other side is, you know, pursuing health goals and then feeling guilty that you care about improving your body or like, you know, somebody makes you feel bad because, oh, now it's all about looks for you, isn't it? Right. And I think this is a false choice because the reality is you can practice self-acceptance and dignity and still pursue measurable health behaviors, right? That's the way I'm gonna put it measurable health behaviors. We had Jamie Selsler on, who lost over 350 pounds, and I realized the framing of that is weight on the scale, but his whole conversation with me was not about the weight on the scale. It was about the process of self-acceptance and self-respect to get healthier so that he can live and thrive in the world for a long time to come. So these things are not in conflict. I think the conflict only exists when we confuse weight with health or when we attach moral value to body size. And so I'm gonna be explicit about the framework we're building today. Uh, I gave it a phrase in my notes. I call it dignity first performance engineering. Maybe that's a mouthful. I don't know if it'll stick, but dignity first performance engineering. It's kind of a mesh between the two in the best way. So, dignity first, what I mean by that is no moral value attached to weight or food, no tolerance at all for stigma. These are just things. They're things you can measure, they're, you know, things that have wide spectra in terms of their judgment or attributes. And why would you tie that into self-worth? You don't earn your worth by hitting a certain whatever, even if it's body fat and body composition, right? It's not tied to your worth. And then the performance engineering piece means we focus on the measurable behaviors and outcomes, right? The process. I've talked about physique engineering before, but I'd really rather use the term performance engineering, with physique just being one of many outputs. So we're talking strength gains, like in the testimonial I shared about getting PRs, personal records. This could be your heart health, your cardiovascular fitness, your blood markers, biomarkers, sleep quality, energy levels. And then even body composition can be among the data stream to give you objective information. And this isn't about, you know, lowering standards, right? Because that's part of the argument people make is that you have to lower standards for the body positivity move bubble. I'm not gonna go there. I think, I think we keep high standards, whatever those are for you, right? Which for you, it may not be nearly as high as someone else because it's relative to where you are right now, you know, start where you're at. So we keep these standards for behaviors and biomarkers, but altogether remove any moral judgment of our body, right? Our physical body. And so, what is the standard then? Well, the standard is you show up consistently, you train and make progress, you hit whatever targets you are setting for yourself, or at least you do your best, knowing that you can't, you're not gonna be perfect, but you're gonna be consistent. And then you track the things you care about, right? And this could be very different from one person to the next, even though on this show we talk about a standard set of these types of metrics. So the standard is not achieving a certain body weight by a certain date, or else you failed as a person. So that's kind of the false dichotomy that I wanted to dispel first. Now, in the second segment, I want to talk about what the evidence shows because I think that's important too. It's not just some guy's opinion on uh a podcast or on YouTube, all right? What does the research tell us? Because I think there's some hard data here. And the first big thing is that stigma and shame simply make health worse. You're like, yeah, that's that's obvious, right? But you know what? The conversation on mental health has changed a lot in the last only 10 years, 20 years. I mean, I'm 44 and I can remember the 90s, and there was a lot of shame and stigma around everything health related, you know, mental health, a lot of it, okay? And things have changed a lot. And and this isn't tough love, right, that I'm asking for or motivating tough love. It's really physiologically harmful when we have stigma and shame. Studies show that experiencing weight stigma predicts higher cardiometabolic risk, disordered eating, elevated cortisol, right? You're just stressed, even higher mortality risk, independent of BMI. Okay, so this mental aspect translates to the physiological aspect. And there are different mechanisms behind this. There's activating your stress physiology, right? The fight or flight, the parasympathetic versus sympathetic. There's people who avoid getting medical care because of the stigma, right? There's behaviors where you compensate with your eating, and that could that definitely includes emotional eating, right? And you're familiar with all of these concepts, I'm sure. So when you shame someone about their weight, and I hope nobody listening to this is doing that, you're not helping them get healthier, right? You are actively making them less healthy. And that's what the data shows. Second, as far as data goes, research, is that fitness and strength do matter at any size. So this is a kind of an interesting concept, right? When we were talking about our fitness as in cardiorespiratory fitness, but also muscular strength, muscle mass, very important things we talk about here, are among the strongest predictors of lower all cause and cardiovascular mortality across all BMI categories. People who are fit and have obesity actually have lower mortality risk than people who are unfit but might be at a normal BMI. This is kind of like the strong with lots of muscle mass but extra fat persona versus skinny fat, but not much muscle mass. I would rather be in general be the person with more muscle, as long as we're not talking about excessively overweight, right? That's like its own category. But this is really crucial. I've had plenty of clients who have been lifters for many years with lots of muscle mass. And they have extra fat, but they're a lot healthier than other people with their biomarkers, even despite that extra fat because of the muscle mass and the fitness. And actually, in some cases, I'll see like their cardio fitness isn't great because they don't walk a lot, and then they start walking, and that improves. Or vice versa. Somebody's really fit in the endurance, but they don't have much muscle mass. They start training for muscle mass and then their markers improve, right? Training improves health markers even before you get any substantial weight loss. That's really, really important. That's really important. A person who lifts weights, who does a little bit of cardio, and that can, yes, absolutely include walking, and ultimately improves their resting heart rate, maybe their VO2 max, I'm not as hung up on that metric, but you know, their general fitness is getting healthier, whether or not, independent of losing any weight. That's really powerful. That's very empowering, I would say, as well. And it's the behavior that drives the benefit here. Okay, that behavior of being an athlete and training. Third, when we look at the data, weight inclusive or health-centric approaches can improve health. This is interesting. Okay. I'm just sharing the data here, whether you like the terms or this hits you right or not. So there's some systematic reviews of the health at every size type programs that do show improvements in lipids and blood pressure and eating behaviors and psychological well-being. The effects on body weight are similar to the what I'll call traditional weight-focused interventions in some of these analyses. This is interesting because you're basically saying this is almost sounds like body positivity, doesn't it? Like, okay, you can be healthy at any size. We're gonna set that as the premise, but now we need to get healthy at your size. That's what strikes me about it, which tells me that behavior change is carrying most of the load, not just the weight loss. And so it moves the needle in the right direction, if that makes sense. All right, the fourth thing I found in the research is that intuitive and mindful eating are very promising for mental health and cardiometabolic markers. Now you're shocked, right? Because I I've blasted intuitive eating on other episodes, but usually what I mean by that is intuitive as in go right in and try to be intuitive and listen to your hunger signals without having developed the skill of doing so through some form of tracking and awareness, right? So I'm not talking about that. I think the idea here is more on the mindfulness piece. Okay. Research links this mindful eating. When we say intuitive, that is what I'm talking about in this context, to a lower BMI, lower waist circumference, better psycho psychosocial outcomes, and mindful eatings associated with improved mood, healthier eating patterns. Now, I love mindfulness and I love developing a skill of knowing what and how to eat, even if it becomes more and more intuitive by using a system to get there. That is the best of both worlds. You've got to be taught, is my point. You've got to be taught, you've got to learn the skill of intuitive eating and mindful eating. They're not magic bullets, right? For a lot of us, they're actually hard. Some apps, based on like psychological behavior, are probably have the right approach there when it comes to the mindfulness piece. Unfortunately, they often lack the data side of things, the numbers side of things. And in my opinion, you can combine the two in a really nice way. But if you've been stuck in like a diet binge cycle, you've got to start somewhere. And I think having mindfulness in general goes a long way. Now, before anyone accuses me of being anti-weight loss or promoting some unhealthy lifestyle, I want to address legitimate criticisms. Okay. Some online body positivity content does cycle back to pure talk of appearance and it can dilute health behaviors. All right. Not everyone thrives with purely weight neutral messaging. Okay. Let me say that again. Not everyone thrives with purely weight neutral messaging. Some people are motivated by body composition goals, and that's totally fine. Some people are motivated by pure vanity goals, and that's totally fine. As long as the process is free of stigma and the metrics go far beyond scale weight. Okay. This is consistent with a lot of things I've been saying over the years that your motivations are yours. They can change. You can have multiple motivations. There are multiple levels of motivation, right? You can have some superficial motivation up here, maybe some external motivation, that's fine. And then you get deeper and deeper and deeper. And ultimately it ties to a what we say is your why, right? Like the deeper reason you want this. You want to be a role model for your kids. You want to be able to not be falling in and breaking your hip when you're in your 70s, right? You don't want to be a nursing home, those things. So that's a legitimate criticism that, you know, when we talk about body positivity, which again, I'm not supporting the traditionally criticized version of it on this episode. I'm trying to add nuance to how we define it or how we think about it. And the issue isn't whether you want to change your body. The issue is whether shame is part of the equation and whether you're using a single metric to define success, right? Because I've met so many people that, you know, they have they have some extra weight on their body. They know it's not healthy. There's no benefit in shaming them. And yet they're not sure whether they can be healthy without losing a lot of weight. And I think it's okay to focus on health and performance and not even care about weight. And guess what? A beautiful thing happens in that your body will start to respond physically and physiologically to that, which often involves releasing stored body fat and building more muscle and partitioning your nutrients where you want them, right? And then the things happen naturally because you're using your body in that way, in that fit athletic sort of way. All right. And I I love data, I love tools. You guys have heard me maybe talk about Macrofactor. It's my favorite nutrition app. I use it every day myself to track my expenditure, my metabolism, my food. But the reason I like tools like that is they are adherence neutral. They do not, they do not shame you for missing a target. So if you can find an app like that or a tracking method like that, where all you're doing is tracking against your goals and metrics, but nothing is like flashing a big red bell at you that says, you just failed because you were over by five calories. That can be very helpful. Now, speaking of metrics and removing shame from the process, anything you can do where you're not judged and you're just adjusting based on what happened and saying, I learned from this. Now I'm gonna do something differently in the future to lessen the impact when it happens again is really, really helpful. All right. That's kind of what an engineer thinks like. An engineer, an inventor, an innovator is gonna fail a lot of times, but they don't even think of it as failure. They think of it as learning from the data. All right. So the next thing I want to talk about is those metrics. In other words, what should you track? And you might be hearing my dogs bark. If weight isn't the metric that matters and body composition is just one of the data streams, what should you track? So think of it like a dashboard, right? What would this dashboard look that paints a complete picture of your health and progress? So we could just stop talking about weight loss. Okay, let's start with performance metrics. This is really where I wanted you to focus most of your attention. One thing you want to do is track your strength progression, your maxes on your key lifts. Now, what this might look like is if you're a beginner, you might only be tracking four lifts. You know, your squat, your bench, your deadlift, your press, maybe. And then you for five reps, let's say, and you're gonna track those. As you get more advanced, you're gonna track more of the lifts and you're gonna track more rep ranges. It might just matter to track what is in your current program. So I'm doing a five-day-a-week program right now where every week I'm doing the same, you know, exercises I did the week before. So what I care about is am I progressing at those exact exercises and reps each week? Whether I go up in reps, whether I go up in weight, do I need to do a reset to kind of you know continue progressing or whatnot? So that's that's strength. Now, cardiovascular fitness gets a little more complicated. There are there are people I'd say more experienced than me in the endurance world. I would say for the average person, for you and me, resting heart rate by itself is gonna be a big indicator, okay? Because you can see a relatively fast improvement when you, for example, start walking more or doing more cardio supportive activities. But if you like wearables and tracking other data, I would say heart rate variability is helpful. Anything on an aura ring or phone or wearable or strap or whatever that can help you is is pretty cool, right? But that's all that's it. I would say resting heart rate is is enough, just to keep it simple. How about your work capacity? Okay, this is also cardio related, but it also is related to your lifting. How many sets can you do before you get winded? How quickly can you recover between them with your rest periods? You know, again, this is tied in a little bit to your step count. It's important to be aware of all that because the amount of cardio and type of cardio you do is going to support how much work capacity you have in the gym. And what you do in the gym with your lifting can also increase your work capacity. So different people have different goals there. And all of these metrics tell you am I getting fitter and stronger? Right? Because they respond pretty quickly to your training. They're very motivating when you see them improve, and then they predict long-term health really, really well, far more than body weight does if you were listening to some of the relationships I mentioned before, like the fact that having more muscle is gonna be super protective, even if you have a little extra weight. So that's performance. Then we get to body composition metrics. We're still gonna track these, but as part of context, as part of a big picture. So your waist circumference, your body weight, but looking at the trend over time. So again, if you use macrofactor, it uses a 20-day exponential moving average. The app that I'm developing also thinks of things in this context of trends and kind of pressure in a direction over time. And you don't have to use like a DEXA scan or anything like that. There are simple ways to track with the Navy formula, for example. We use, I have a biofeedback and physique tracker in physique university we use, where you just put in some simple measurements and it gives you these estimates. But if you look up Navy formula, you just need a few measurements to track it that way. But all of these are lagging indicators and they change more slowly versus the performance indicators, which are more either leading or real-time type indicators. I mean, resting heart rate is a little bit of a lagging indicator, but they change pretty quickly. These body composition metrics are gonna take time to change. So this is where you have to not let a week of no movement, because a week is nothing, seven days is nothing, tell you, hey, this is not working if your performance metrics are improving. In fact, in many cases, the these body composition things aren't gonna change very much at all, but your health and your performance is gonna improve a lot. And then your body composition might start to catch up. So those that's body composition. The third category on your dashboard is the metabolic health markers. And this is getting your labs done, I would say, every at least annually, if not every six months, or even three months if you're really into this stuff. And that's a lot of different things that could be A1C, fasting glucose, your lipids, your blood pressure, inflammant infl markers of inflammation, nutrient, you know, deficiencies and stuff. And these tell you what's happening inside your body, right? Not just what you see in the mirror. This is very, very important. It tells you how what you're eating is affecting what's in your body. Are you getting enough sunlight, right? Those kinds of things. How are your hormones? Right? You can have a six-pack, but still have terrible metabolic health, or you can have a little higher body fat percentage, but have really good metabolic health. And this goes back to why body positivity gets really tricky. We want to know what's actually going on. And of course, we we do a service now called performance blood work. I need to share that with you guys because I have a I have an example, some example reports from clients who've done that recently. You effectively get 85 plus biomarkers measured, and then thousands of calculations and patterns put on top of that to then say, okay, these two markers are low or they're in the normal range rather than the optimal range. How do we get them to be more optimal? All right, you need to be maybe supplementing with omega-3 fish oil over here. And are you training? You know, are you strength training? Of course, that's gonna be on everybody's plan that I put together. But yeah, that those are the kind of things that are can be really powerful. And then you do have subjective metrics, right? Like your biofeedback is kind of subjective, although when you track it over time, it becomes a little more objective, if that makes sense. Kind of the idea of quality, qualitative data becoming empirical, if you will. So energy, mood, sleep quality, how you feel during your workouts, your digestion, your hunger, all this, all those stuff, right? There's a whole list. These matter because if you're, let's say, losing weight, but you feel like garbage, you're not really winning. I mean, you're not you're not gonna feel your best probably when you're in a fat loss phase, but there are optimal ways to do it, okay? And conversely, if you're getting stronger and you feel great, but the scale's not moving, maybe your waist is going down, you're probably doing exactly what you should be doing, right? That's where it gets kind of confusing. So if if the the key here is looking at all of these together. So if your strength's going up, your waist is going down, your energy is high, your labs are improving, and your weight is exactly the same, that is a huge, massive win right there. That's a massive win. You are replacing fat with muscle, or I should say you're losing one and gaining the other, and you're getting healthier and you're getting more capable. And I bet you're feeling better and more confident. If you only looked at the scale, you'd think that nothing was happening and you might quit. So that's a great example. All right, so now let's quickly talk about nutrition in this framework because I think a lot of people get stuck here. We've talked a lot about training and performance, and you're like, well, where does food come into this? Well, the first principle here is make it behavior based, right? Not outcome-based, always. So if you can focus on what to do day to day and then track that and see how you're doing and nudge, nudge, nudge till you get there, it's gonna work out really well. Okay. And that's things like your minimum targets for protein, 0.7 to 1 gram per pound. Hitting that consistently is going to go a huge way. Same thing for fiber, 25 to 35 grams, probably more like 25 for women, 35 for men. Vegetables, fruits, whole grains. If you have to supplement, supplement. Build the meals that you enjoy. I want you to enjoy your food. If you hate chicken breasts and broccoli, don't make that a regular staple in your diet. Find proteins and vegetables you do like, prepare them in a way you do like. Learn how to cook really good food. Use a meal service if you have to, you know, marry somebody who's a great cook. Okay, that was out of line, maybe, or not. I don't know. I got lucky in that regard. You don't want to suffer your way through, you want to build the sustainable behavior. And so, those of you who've been chronically dieting in the past, or you've done multiple rounds of restrictive diets, of carnivore, of keto, of low carb, all that, intermittent fasting, right? Then tracking these things and even some of the mindfulness and intuitive eating things can help. Believe it or not, together, these things can help because then you can learn to recognize hunger, physiological versus emotional hunger, when you're full, removing moral labels from food, eating without distraction, so you can taste your food and take time to let it digest and let yourself fill up before you overeat. Like those skills are gonna reduce the backlash that you would get from rigid dieting. And when combined with hitting some simple ranges and targets and tracking that, that's everything. Let me tell you, that is everything. Now, speaking of tracking calories and macros, I'm not saying, I'm definitely not saying you never track those. In fact, I think anybody listening to this podcast with the goals we have should track these. Okay. If you have a body composition goal at all, if you want to lose fat or gain weight intentionally to build muscle, then you've got to understand at least your energy balance and whether you're in a surplus or deficit so you don't hold yourself back or make it take a lot longer and get more frustrating with plateaus than you want. Okay. Track your intake, practice this neutrality when it comes to food. You know, eat mostly whole foods, hit hit your macros, still honor your hunger and fullness cues. It all works really well, but really just start somewhere. And the difference is the mental side, right? You are not tracking to punish yourself or earn the right to eat from your exercise, right? Your tracking is information. It is data to help you engineer the outcome that you want by focusing on the here and now and the process. Just like when you track training volume. It's a tool. It's a tool, right? And you're gonna go off track. That's cool, that's fine. Everyone does. You don't spiral into shame. You just adjust and move forward. You learn from it. One meal, one day, one week at a time. The trend is what matters. All right. So this is where let's talk about coaching psychology here. So that's it, that's all I have on nutrition. So I think a lot of the approaches with the psycho based on psychology is where things fall apart. So you might be doing all the things we just talked about. You might have great training, you might have a good nutrition plan. But if you have terrible self-talk, if you're always beating yourself up, you are not gonna stick with it. Right. So this really is about coaching yourself without shame. How do we do that? How do we do that? All right. One thought I have is replace criticism with neutral observation. I'm simply observing. So instead of saying, you know, I'm I'm really lazy, I skip the gym again. Just say I didn't train this week. What got in the way of me doing that? What can I do differently next week? You see the difference, right? You're not labeling yourself, you're just observing what happened. Right? Different framing. One shuts you down, one opens up problem solving. Focus on the process, not the outcomes. We've mentioned this already. Instead of I need to lose 20 pounds, I gotta get that last 10 pounds off. It's I'm gonna train four times this week and I'm gonna hit my protein, you know, five out of the seven days of the week, whatever your goal is. You control the process, you don't control the outcome. So if you're gonna judge yourself at all, it's on the things you can control. And it then it tends to be more of an objective rather than a moral judgment. Another thought I have here is to use approach goals, not avoidance goals. In other words, not avoidance goals, in other words, what the approach is. So instead of saying I need to stop eating junk food, say I'm going to include a Protein source and a vegetable at every meal. You know, you're creating a goal on your approach, not something you're trying to avoid. And they're more motivating that way. Another one is self-compassion. I mean, a lot of you I know can probably do better here. And I know I could have in the past as well. This is not the same as self-indulgence. Self-compassion is recognizing that struggle is part of the human condition. And so you're going to treat yourself with the same kindness you would show your best friend. And you're going to commit to do better without the spiral into shame. It's okay to want to do better, but you don't have to shame yourself for it. Self-indulgence, on the other hand, is giving up on your personal standards because you don't feel like meeting them. All right. That there is a difference. I don't want you to do that. Whereas self-compassion improves behavior change. I mean, the research is clear on this. People who practice self-compassion have better long-term adherence to health behaviors than people who rely on self-criticism. If you're a natural optimist, great. If you're not, this is something to work on. All right. Think about it this way. If you had a coach who constantly told you you were garbage, that you never succeed, that you're worthless every time you make a mistake, would you want to keep working with that coach? Of course not. Well, guess what? You are your own coach right now. You would quit, you would fire that coach, you would talk bad about them probably if anybody asks. So why would you treat yourself like that coach? You you shouldn't. All right. So just to wrap this in a bow, I want to tackle some of the objections related to body positivity. And the big one is is it anti-health? No. I think the issue is not acceptance of your body, it's whether the messaging detaches from the behavior and the health marker. So you can respect your body and still work to improve your fitness and your nutrition, your sleep, et cetera. They're not in conflict. Body positivity becomes problematic, in my opinion, when it denies that the behaviors matter or when it shames people for wanting to improve their health. All right, now what about the debate about you can be fat but fit? Well, the research shows that higher fitness attenuates risk, whatever your size is, but it doesn't mean the risk vanishes. Fitness is protective, it's mitigating, but it's not the only thing. Your behaviors will drive reducing that risk because a person with obesity who lifts weights, does cardio, eats well, manages stress, is healthier than a sedentary person who doesn't do those things, even if they're at a normal quote unquote normal BMI. But lower body fat, all else equal, confers quite a few additional benefits. So the point here is to focus on the behaviors because those are what you control and drive most of the benefit. And it's also going to lead to fat loss anyway, if that's what you need. All right. And then one more thing I want to address here is you know, this comment if we stop talking about weight, people will never change. And I think that's backward. I think stigma reduces change. I think shame makes people less likely to engage in health behaviors, more likely to avoid medical care, more likely to binge eat, right? Behavior-first coaching, where we focus on the actions and the markers rather than weight, often works better. So I don't think we need to, I think we can stop talking about weight in the way that a lot of people talk about it, and and it and the world's gonna be a better place, right? So the goal isn't to never talk about weight or body conferences, is to remove the moral judgment from the conversation and use multiple metrics, not just one. So, what do you actually do with all this information from a practical standpoint? All right, I'm gonna give you some simple tips. The first one is pick two fitness metrics to improve over the next two months. Very simple. You test them now, you retest later, and you make these your primary progress measures. Cut out all the noise, just stick with those two over the next two months. For example, hitting your protein and fiber if you're if nutrition's important to you. And then just build your meals you enjoy around those targets until you hit them on a regular basis. And it and it kind of simplifies the process. Or replace a self-critical thought each day with a neutral observation, like we talked about. This is a practice, it takes work, but you have to be intentional about it and say, this is the thing I'm going to do each day. Or track a health marker with your doctor every few months. Obviously, these are going to change more slowly, but being, again, intentional or doing our performance blood work service, for example. So you right now have a baseline and have interventions, and then you can do what I'm talking about right now, focus on one or two. I will put together a performance plan for you that really narrows the list to at most, let's say 12 interventions maximum to help you focus. You know, you use these information to guide your decisions and not the mirror and not the scale weight. And it's defining success more broadly, even though it's more intentional and therefore, ironically, it's more precise. Your training performance, your energy, your sleep, your labs, your measurements, whatever makes sense for you right now. Obviously, if you're working a coach, if you were working with me, we would go all in on multiple measures, but we would do it in a way that was sustainable, where you had me to lean on. If you're doing it yourself, I really recommend focusing on one or two things at a time. And I won't say perfecting those, but making them consistent. And that's how you'd build a system. All right, so I think to wrap this up, what is very powerful about all of what we're talking about today? Why are we even talking about it? I think it to use a cliche flips the script on how we think about body change and body positivity. A lot of people start with the end goal in mind. Maybe it's the physique, the body weight, and then they work backward. And I try to define physique as something more than just the body, let's say, but I understand that that's the standard definition. And people say, look, I want to look like this, so I need to do these behaviors. And then when things don't change fast enough to look like that, they quit, right? You quit. You're like, okay, this isn't working. I got to do something else because you were measuring the outcome. But if you start with, again, this phrase, dignity first, performance engineering, interesting mesh of two concepts. You start with the behaviors and the values. You say, hey, I want to be strong and capable, I want to be healthy. These are the behaviors that can build those qualities, like what are X, Y, Z. And as a side effect, my body will probably change in ways that I like. The physique becomes a bonus, right? It's not the prerequisite for feeling good about yourself or your self-worth. And then what happens when you make that shift is guess what? You're gonna be able to stick to it. Then we have that A word, adherence, which is the foundation of everything. But you don't get to that until you accept yourself right now. You're not waiting for the future version of yourself. You are acceptable right now. You accept yourself, and then you're building on that foundation of where you are right now. And I think the research backs this up. I think, you know, programs and approaches that focus on health behaviors and remove weight stigma are absolutely at least or probably far better long term with their outcomes compared to traditional quote unquote weight loss programs. And more importantly, they have better psychological outcomes. Mental health is so important here, guys. That means you get the same health benefits, who doesn't want that, but less suffering. Who doesn't want that? So great. That's what engineering is all about. You know, performance engineering, maximum output, minimum waste, efficiency. We talk about it all the time. So the question is not, can I love my body and still want to change it? The question is, what kind of change am I pursuing and why? That's it. That is your question now. Obviously, you love yourself and you love your body and you want to change your body because you love it, most likely. You want to improve in some way. And if you're pursuing strength or fitness, energy, longevity, capability, and then the body composition change happens along the way. That is what I mean by dignity first performance engineering. So if you're pursuing a body weight right now because you think it will make you the person you can accept, that is shame-based fitness culture. It does not work. Choose the first one. Okay, choose the first one. And that is dignity, accept yourself now, and then go after the improvement and make it happen. And that is kind of a better approach, in my opinion. So what let me bring my thoughts together because I'm kind of rambling a little bit. I think you can practice self-acceptance and still pursue measurable health improvements, and they're not in conflict. That is the message today. The conflict only exists when we start latching on moral value to scale weight, or we use a single metric to judge success. Whatever that metric is, maybe it's not scale weight, maybe it's something else, but still you lack nuance and context. And removing that stigma is not equivalent to removing the standards. We still keep high standards for our behaviors, for our biomarkers, for the process, right? While removing the moral judgment about our body in the moment. So fitness capacity, I think, is a good term to use here. It's one of the strongest health levers that can exist, regardless of body size. If you can focus on getting stronger, on building muscle and getting fitter overall, the rest tends to follow. The rest tends to follow. And remember that behavior change tends to carry most of the load, not weight loss. The behavior change is what carries the load. All right. Mindful tools, smart training, having structure can all reduce all of that backlash and that yo-yo, you know, what am I trying to say, weight regain that everybody's worried about from rigid dieting, and instead shifted more toward these sustainable habits. You just have to build your dashboard, like we talked about today. Coach yourself with the same respect you chose someone you care about. Be kind to yourself. It's not soft, it's not woo. It's smart, it is effective, it is sustainable. All right. If today's episode clicked for you, I want you to do me a favor and just text this to a friend who needs to hear it. Hopefully, I gave this the treatment it deserved, some nuance, some empathy, not a toxic level of delusion or anything like that, I hope. And it was what you needed to hear. I know I needed to say it, I need to hear it myself sometime. So text this to a friend who's been stuck between, you know, like wanting to respect themselves and wanting to improve their health. It's not a false, it's a false dichotomy. We don't have to have, it's not mutually exclusive, right? So text it to a friend who's tired of the all or nothing. Text it to a friend who needs to hear this. And then if you want to go deeper on any of this, if you want help building your own system with coaching, a community, anything like that, we do have Wits and Weights Physique University, where you can learn more physique.wits and weights.com. That's physique.wits and weights.com. But really just send this to a friend who needs to hear it. And until next time, keep using your wits, lifting those weights. And remember, your body is capable of amazing things when you give it the right stimulus, the right fuel, and the right respect. This is Philip Pape, and you've been listening to Wits and Weights. I'll talk to you next time.

Can You Be a Hybrid Athlete Without Losing Muscle? (Kris Gethin) | Ep 385

Download the Adaptive Cardio Workshop, cardio planning guide, training templates, and get a custom nutrition plan at live.witsandweights.com/adaptive-cardio

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Can cardio really kill your gains? What if the truth is the exact opposite? Could you actually build muscle and endurance at the same time, without sacrificing either?

I am joined by Kris Gethin, a pro bodybuilder, Ironman finisher, and endurance athlete, to destroy the myth that “cardio ruins muscle.” Kris shares how he transformed from a 220-pound bodybuilder to a full Ironman in six months without losing his physique. We unpack the real science of hybrid training, how to combine strength and cardio effectively, and why recovery, not training volume, is what really determines your success. 

Tune in to learn how cardio and lifting can finally work together, not against each other.

Today, you’ll learn all about:

2:24 – Kris’s asthma story and recovery breakthrough
7:45 – How hybrid training changed the game
14:28 – Building recovery into your lifestyle
21:02 – Grounding, mindfulness, and HRV
26:58 – Key running, cycling, and swimming tips
32:26 – Why sprinting beats long slow cardio
39:28 – Nutrition, fasting, and fueling for performance
47:02 – Squats, balance, and hybrid strength
51:04 – Hydration, sleep, and long-term health

Episode resources:

• Instagram: @krisgethin 

• Website: krisgethin.com 

• Facebook: @krisjohngethin 

• Youtube: @krisgethin 

Cardio Without Compromise for Hybrid Athletes Who Want To Keep Their Muscle

Most lifters have heard the warning that steady cardio will strip away hard-earned muscle. The idea sounds simple and scary, but it is not how the body works when you train and recover on purpose. You can build and preserve muscle while you improve endurance if you control volume, place strength first, eat to perform, and protect recovery. Consider this your blueprint.

Why the cardio kills gains myth keeps hanging around

Bodybuilding culture taught lifters to avoid anything that burned extra calories. That made some sense when the single goal was mass at any cost. For most people today, long-term health, resilience, and performance matter just as much as a bigger frame. Conditioning improves blood flow, speeds recovery between hard sets, and expands your training capacity without forcing you to sacrifice muscle, provided you program it with intent.

The interference problem is real but solvable

The body adapts to what you ask it to do most. If you drown yourself in high mileage while also pushing volume in the gym, fatigue will outrun your ability to recover. The fix is to manage dosage and sequence.

Principles that prevent interference

• Lift before you condition when both occur on the same day. Strength work gets prime energy and neural focus.

• Separate hard from hard whenever possible. If you have a heavy lower day, make conditioning that day short and skill based, then schedule intervals on an upper day.

• Use the minimum effective dose for both strength and conditioning. Add only when progress stalls for two weeks.

• Track performance, not just duration. Progress loads, reps, pace, or power by small increments.

A simple hybrid week that keeps your muscle

This template assumes four lifts and two conditioning sessions. Adjust to your recovery and schedule.

• Mon: Upper strength, then optional 10 to 15 minutes easy zone 2

• Tue: Intervals or hill sprints, 20 to 30 minutes total including warm up and full recoveries

• Wed: Lower strength

• Thu: Upper strength plus 10 to 15 minutes easy zone 2

• Fri: Lower strength

• Sat or Sun: Longer aerobic session if desired, usually 30 to 60 minutes at conversational pace

If you are new to conditioning, start with two short zone 2 sessions and one interval day every other week. When recovery improves, bring intervals in weekly. If stress runs high or sleep drops, pull the long session first.

Strength training stays the driver

Choose a moderate volume hypertrophy plan that you can recover from while adding conditioning.

• Frequency: 4 days per week

• Volume: 10 to 15 hard sets per muscle group per week

• Intensity: Most work in the 6 to 12 rep range, one to two reps from failure

• Progression: Add reps before load, rotate accessories when a lift stalls, and keep heavy compound lifts as the base

Conditioning that supports, not steals

Short, high quality efforts deliver a strong cardiovascular stimulus with less muscle damage and joint wear.

• Intervals for lifters: 20 to 45 second sprints with full recovery, 6 to 10 total reps

• Hills or a curved treadmill to engage the posterior chain and reduce knee stress

• Swimming or cycling as low impact options between leg days

• Technique first: Softer surfaces for runs, posture tall, relaxed arms, smooth foot strike

Fuel like a hybrid

You are training two systems. Plan for that.

• Protein: 0.8 to 1.0 g per pound of body weight per day

• Carbs: Center them around training to refill glycogen and protect performance

• Fats: About 0.3 to 0.4 g per pound, then adjust based on energy and labs

• Hydration and electrolytes: Treat these as performance gear, not afterthoughts

Liquid carbs and protein can help on long days when solid food feels heavy. If appetite falls behind workload, set a minimum target for carbs before and after sessions so you never enter key lifts under fueled.

Recovery is the gatekeeper

Sleep and stress control decide whether hybrid training builds you up or breaks you down.

• Sleep 7 to 9 hours with a cool, dark room and a repeatable routine

• Walk daily to improve blood flow and recovery without draining your reserves

• Mindful meals without screens to aid digestion and absorption

• Readiness checks such as heart rate variability can guide minor adjustments, but how you feel and how you perform should lead

Technique tips that extend your training life

• Running: Favor trails or tracks when possible. Keep eyes level and cadence steady. If knees complain, reduce vertical bounce and strengthen calves and hips.

• Cycling: Learn to tuck and use the posterior chain, not just quads. Mobility for hips and thoracic spine pays off in free speed and lower fatigue.

• Swimming: Practice sighting every few strokes so open water does not pull you off course. Paddles and short sprints build power without long joint pounding.

Who benefits most from the hybrid model

• Lifters who want cardiovascular fitness without giving up muscle

• Parents and professionals who need capacity for life outside the gym

• Masters athletes who value joint health and recovery over pure volume

• Anyone who wants performance and physique to rise together

Cardio does not erase muscle when you train with intent. Keep strength first, pick efficient conditioning, fuel the work, and defend your sleep. When you do that, you will look strong, move well, and stay ready for whatever life throws at you.

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Transcript

Philip Pape: 0:01

If you're a woman approaching or experiencing menopause, your doctor may have told you to tough it out that hormone therapy is risky or that you can start at any time if symptoms or labs get bad enough. But what if waiting too long to begin menopausal hormone therapy doesn't just mean suffering through hot flashes and sleep disruption? What if it means missing a critical window that could determine your metabolic health for the rest of your life? Today, my guest reveals why the timing of hormone therapy is about preventing a metabolic storm that fundamentally changes how your body processes energy, stores fat, and maintains muscle and bone. You'll discover why the conventional advice to delay therapy could be setting you up for visceral belly fat accumulation, insulin resistance, and accelerated bone loss. And if you think you can simply overcome these changes with more exercise and stricter dieting, you're about to learn why that approach falls short and what to do instead. Welcome to Wits and Weights, the show that helps you build a strong, healthy physique using evidence, engineering, and efficiency. I'm your host, Philip Pate, and today we're gonna look at one of the most critical but misunderstood aspects of women's health, and that is the timing of hormone replacement therapy and the very profound impact it has on your metabolism. Now you are gonna love my guest today as she returns for the third time, the wonderful, knowledgeable, and always friendly Karen Martell. Karen is a certified hormone specialist. She's a weight loss coach, she's host of the hormone solution podcast. I can't believe you're not following that by now if you're not. And she's helped thousands of women navigate that fine dance between hormones and metabolism. She's here today to discuss the cue the thunder metabolic storm of menopause and why the timing of starting HRT may be more important than you think. Karen, always an honor, always a pleasure to talk to you here on Wits and Weights.

Karen Martel: 1:59

Thank you, Philip. It's so good to be here. I love coming on your show. I love talking to you. It's always good.

Philip Pape: 2:05

Likewise, likewise, because we I think we have a lot of overlap. And then there are also things that are just like totally in your wheelhouse that I love to learn. I learn something new every day, 10 things when we talk. And so does the listener, and they're always asking for you as well. So it's going to be exciting. And it all you're also going to be coming into our group to do a live Q ⁇ A very soon after this comes out. So look for that, everybody. But you've had a lot of interesting guests on your show, like Bill Campbell, who I know very well. Um, you've been talking a lot about the menopause transition, which is roughly a, I think, three and a half year phase on average for a lot of women. You've been talking about how hormone uh changes, especially hormone loss of the key reproductive hormones, can drive fat distribution, changes in insulin sensitivity, bone health, muscle mass, metabolism, and weight, all the things. What is the latest we know about all this specifically with what you call the metabolic storm? Because we want to focus on that and how we can get ahead of it.

Karen Martel: 3:03

So I will correct you on something there. It's not just three years, Phil.

Philip Pape: 3:08

Okay. It's okay.

Karen Martel: 3:09

We're we're looking, it's average now for women, the perimenopausal phase is typically eight to ten years, and it can go on longer. And and I think that that's an important thing to recognize because a lot of women don't realize what's happening to them when they're in their late 30s and early 40s, and they're like, hmm, what's happening here? My I'm getting a heavier period, or I've gained a little bit of weight, or my hair's falling out, or my joints starting to hurt. I'm got suddenly a whole bunch of new wrinkles that I didn't have a year ago. You know, these little things that just like this can for someone they can slowly creep in, and they typically start to do all of the other things besides look at their hormones. They're like, oh, I better start, I better change my diet, I better exercise more, I better do this, I better do that, which you kind of have to do those things. But you should also be looking at the hormones because the earlier you can catch the hormonal loss that starts to happen, the better off you're gonna be. And then the less of that metabolic storm, it's gonna be sunny skies. It's not gonna be a storm. And this is where so many practitioners are going wrong, and doctors are going wrong, is that they wait until a woman is a hot mess way into her 40s, even into her 50s and post-menopausal. Then they're like, oh, okay, now we'll give you hormones because you are still suffering so badly. And it's like at that point, many of these women are 10, 20, 30 pounds overweight. And these are women that are coming from a background of exercising and healthy eating and listening to our podcasts, and they're like health-conscious women, and they're going, what just happened to my body? And then it's so hard to reverse once it happens. So it's easier to prevent.

Philip Pape: 5:08

Yeah. So there's two things that are big takeaways from what you said that I got. The first is the education on the timing, which is what we're talking about. I'm glad you mentioned the, you know, the three and a half years that I was referring to is the MT from the literature, right? It's that tiny period right before the final end and end of menopause, right? When you haven't had a period for a year and you're at menopause. And what you're saying is really, we have to back this thing up and look at the whole spectrum that goes from as early as potentially your late 30s, I understand, but mainly through your 40s and in your 50s. We were talking about Zora Benamu, right? Who's she's been on my show and vice versa, and you you're good friends with her. Um, and she talks about all the misconceptions that not just, you know, people, but women specifically have with menopause. And so that that's part of the discussion. The second thing you mentioned is how a lot of these women are doing the things, right? And and this is this is my population too. And those who listen to this podcast of like, you know, I know to track food or macros or whatever, you know, I know to, you know, eat the right portions, I know to eat protein, I know I should be lifting weights. Now, maybe they're not all doing that, but even the ones who are, and they're still frustrated and like, what's going on? And like you said, a little bit of gaslighting, whatever you want to call it, maybe it's more ignorance than anything, lack of training in the healthcare industry. And it's like, no, you gotta be a hot mess, you've got to be totally like begging for, you know, hormone therapy before you do it. So those are two huge takeaways that I think set the stage for like, okay, what is happening, Karen? Yes. And what do we do about it? Let's unravel the mystery.

Karen Martel: 6:35

Yes. And so let's get into like the meta, like what's happening to the metabolism through these phases, because that is like the so important. And and it starts when we start to lose our our progesterone. So that's usually the first to go. And that's in our late 30s, early 40s. We run out of eggs, we come into this world with a certain amount of eggs, we start running out of them. And when we no longer ovulate, we are no longer producing the bulk of our progesterone. Well, second half of your cycle, progesterone is supposed to come on the scene, which raises our metabolic rate, it raises the basal metabolic temperature in the body. It also helps your thyroid to function properly. And so that is the first thing that starts to happen to the metabolism, is that is we don't get that rise in body temperature in the second half of the cycle. Progesterone is also super key for GABA production in the brain. It influences the GABA receptors in the brain, which GABA helps us, helps us all to sleep. It induces sleep. We know that when people do not get a good night of sleep, if you have, if you've ever worn a CGM, you will see that your blood checkers will be spiked when you wake up in the morning. Because it's like instant insulin resistance the next day when you don't sleep well. So without that progesterone, which is helping you sleep, that starts to go. So now we're not sleeping as well. So now we're getting more insulin resistant, right? Every time we, you know, especially if we're going for longer and longer stretches and if not good sleep, that's gonna start to really impact your body composition, your blood sugar regulation, etc. The other thing is GABA is an anti-anxiety neurotransmitter. So GABA helps you to be calm. So now we don't have as much of this GABA response happening in the second half of the cycle. So we hear from so many women that anxiety starts to go up. And if you're not sleeping and you're so you're tired, you're slightly insulin resistant, but not only that, you're you've got anxiety, a little bit of, you know, just that like low-level anxiety feeling all the time. I'm sorry, but do we want to eat really well when we feel that way? Typically not. Typically, your body goes, give me the sugar, I need that dopamine hit, I need something to give me some energy, I need something to, you know, up my blood sugar here a little bit because it's wonky. And so you so this is the metabolic storm is now starting. As this continues on, you get less and less ovulation, less and less progesterone. Now we're bleeding heavier, all these things start to compound. Then, typically around mid-40s to late 40s, estradiol starts to kind of go up and down, but slowly starts to go down. So it'll have times where it goes high, but then it'll drop back down. And then, but it's slowly it just goes lower and lower. And it's estrogen, oddly enough. And I think this surprises a lot of women because women tend to associate estrogen with weight gain because of estrogen dominance. And we've got so much estrogen in our environment right now that acts like estrogen in the body, but it's a lot stronger. And so, yeah, estrogen, too much estrogen and too much xenoestrogens absolutely will make you gain weight, but too little estrogen makes you gain even more weight than too much, which is very surprising. But estradiol, so there's three estrogens. Estradiol is the one that we produce in our ovaries. That is the one that is like the master of our metabolism. And so as it starts to go down, many things start to happen. Number one, we have estradiol receptors in the hunger centers of our brain, right? So it helps regulate your eating patterns as well as how much you're eating. So people, women will become more leptin resistant, they'll have dysregulation with ghrelin levels. And so these are the hormones, these are our appetite hormones that tell us when to stop eating, gives us the signal to the brain, like, hey, I'm done, I'm full, and then as well as hunger, right? So just drives hunger sensations in the stomach. And so that becomes dysregulated as estradiol starts to go down. So we start eating more and we start craving more sugar and we start becoming more insulin resistant. It also helps us just to process glucose. Estradiol helps you to process it. So now we're becoming more insulin resistant as the estradiol is dropping, and that is not good either. And then as estradiol is dropping, another estrogen starts to come up because your body's super smart and it's like, oh my god, we need estradiol. This is the most important hormone for this body because it is. We have estrogen receptors on every organ, it helps every organ to function properly with in our brain, bones, skin. I mean, it is so crucial. It is not just about fertility. And so your body goes, we need to get estrogen somehow. And you can make estrogen from fat cells. And that kind of estrogen is called estrone. But that's an inflammatory estrogen. And so, and and it's terrible because it's a vicious cycle. The more fat you put on, the more estrone you're gonna make, and the more estrone you make, the more fat you're gonna make. So it's just this vicious circle that feeds into each other and makes you gain more and more weight. So we have this inflammatory storm happening, which is not good for weight or metabolism. And then our esterdiols dropping, we're getting more hungry, getting more insulin resistant. Where do we see, you know, you look at somebody that has type 2 diabetes or insulin resistance, where do they carry the weight in their gut?

Philip Pape: 12:54

In their visceral, yeah.

Karen Martel: 12:56

In their visceral, which is the worst kind of fat and most dangerous kind of fat is visceral fat. And this is the classic menobelly that happens. And I will tell you that you can be the healthiest woman in the world, and I really want everybody to hear this. And this can still happen to you, and it's an awful thing. It happened to me. I had been, you know, this Puritan paleo 10 years. I had kept at the same weight for 10 years. I thought I had this in the bag. I was like, oh, perimenopause, menopause, yeah, not gonna touch me. This is gonna be like a couple days of some hot flashes. I'll lose my period, and that'll be it. I'll be in menopause. Well, in my early 40s, I went into early menopause, which my health status didn't help with that, right? Like I'm very healthy, and yet I still was losing ovarian function early, earlier than I should have. And I gained about 15 pounds within a few months. And I lost my period, I was losing my period, I had itchy skin, I was hot flashing and night sweats like crazy. I was in the metabolic storm. And I'm like, how is it? Like, I didn't drink, I didn't smoke, I ate so clean, I didn't have sugar addiction, I was working out, I did everything, I was in this industry. This is what I did for a living, and I practiced what I preached, and it still happened. And so I I want women to hear that because they tend to blame themselves and they think, oh, I'm not doing XYZ hard enough.

Philip Pape: 14:38

Yep.

Karen Martel: 14:39

And it could purely be from the drop of hormones.

Philip Pape: 14:43

And that's why I wanted to have you on, because there's two big aspects here. There's lifestyle, which we talk to death on this show, of course. And then there's hormones. And I mean, I know just from men talking to all every day in my communities about why can't I sleep over 40? Why can't why does this get hard over 40? You know what I mean? And it's like, take that times 10 for some of the women I speak to, not all. And that leads me to my question, though, Karen, because I want to get into even more of like the mechanisms of this because I know people love that, but it sounds like pretty much everything in the body is affected at some level. It's in the population, how would you break down women that are like affected by this severely versus kind of it's noticeable, but it's surmountable versus like they don't even notice it? You know, how would you categorize just in general?

Karen Martel: 15:32

That is a tough question. And I've thought a lot about it. Like, why is it that some women just sail through this? And they could be women that are overweight, eating McDonald's every day, you know, like that don't exercise and they're like, Yeah, hop flash. Oh, I think maybe I had one hopflash, you know. Like, it's like, what? How is this possible? You know, so sometimes there's no rhyme or reason. I think that there's a genetic piece for sure. Uh there is some research that kind of shows, like, if your mom had a bad menopause or an early menopause, then you might as well. And that was definitely like my mom had a horrible menopause, and she went into it really early as well. And she was really prone to hot flashes, like me. And you know, so there we there is a genetic component and how you process those hormones. It is also what were you exposed to? You could be really healthy, but if you had exposure to some of these very common toxins that are in our environment, I mean, none of us are free from the toxins right now. Like we're we're all overloaded with them. So did you have a lot of heavy metal exposure? Did you have mold exposure? These things really mess with the hormones. Did you have trauma? There's a lot of really cool new research coming out that's showing that if you had PTSD or you've had early childhood trauma, that this affects how the hormone receptors work. And so when you're losing those hormones, you can be affected by it a lot more than the average person because you're more sensitive to these hormonal drops. So there's many different things that can go into this. And of course, of course, eating healthy, managing your stress, all of these lifestyle pieces, sleeping, et cetera, et cetera, they have to be part of this picture. And I'm not saying that that's a waste of your time because no matter what, that's gonna like maybe I would have gained 30 pounds instead of 15 had I not been such a great eater and a good in exercising, et cetera, right? So there's these are tools. HRT, it's like it gives the body the tools to allow it to lose weight so that if the efforts are put in, it's gonna be a lot easier for that woman to let go of that extra fat that she may have gained. And I think that that's a that's important to hear.

Philip Pape: 18:00

You're right. I mean, that tools is the way to think about it, just like with GLP ones, which can get so emotionally charged. And as a coach myself, like I don't want to be the one saying, well, you have to do it this one way, and I'm gonna help you white knuckle through a lifestyle change when that's not gonna, that's gonna look great for me either. When you all of a sudden your metabolism keeps tanking and tanking and taking, and we're doing everything. I'm like, yeah, but we're following the science, something else is going on. Well, the body's complex, there's physiology and there's chemistry involved, and that's what we're hitting on today. So, okay, you can't do anything about your childhood. You can't go back in time and change any of this stuff. Well, you can.

Karen Martel: 18:35

You can work on your traumas and stuff if you have not. Yes, you're right.

Philip Pape: 18:39

You're you can work on who you are today as a result of your childhood. Um, but so you've mentioned a lot of cascades, right? Related to thyroid and then sleep and insulin resistance and anxiety. You mentioned um fat distribution and inflammation from which can probably be measured in blood markers from something like estrone and glycemic control, you also mentioned. Now, what about the bone density and muscle side of this musculoskeletal piece? Where does that, how does that get affected by all this?

Karen Martel: 19:11

Yeah. Testosterone starts to go too, which is a very important hormone for women. And that, of course, has lots to do with, you know, increasing protein synthesis, muscle building, bone formation. It's great. It's great for many, many different things. And so we do see that coming down as well in women in perimenopause. So that starts to affect muscle. But estradiol is also extremely important for muscle. It helps the the uh the satellite cells to work better. It they influence the satellite cells. Now, satellite cells, they're like muscle stem cells, it just helps your body to repair and after working out and helps to grow with the grow the muscles, etc. So without the estradiol, you can actually have more muscle loss and start lacking in that repair. So women will say, Oh, I don't recover the same anymore. Estrogen is really important for lubrication, lubrication of everything. Your vagina, your eyes. Like women will say, I'm getting dry eyes, dry skin, joints. So women will say, my joints are sore all the time, my back is sore all the time, suddenly. And this can be because of that estradiol loss. It also helps your body to make collagen. So all of these things really important when you're lifting weights and trying to put muscle on. And so we need the estradiol. It's also really important. This is kind of an odd one, but neuromuscular health. And that's like how your brain speaks to the muscles, and vice versa. And so that starts to go down when estradiol starts to go down. And so we have this once again, this perfect storm happening at the same time that all this other metabolic stuff is happening, your cholesterol starts going up, the blood sugar starts going up. Estrogen helps to raise cortisol binding globulin. Now, this is a uh binding globulin that binds up your cortisol, which you want the perfect amount, you want the Goldilocks amount. We don't want too much cortisol, we also don't want too little, right? Astradiol, as it drops, it actually makes it so that we have more free cortisol around. But in this day and age, women, we we tend to have a little too much cortisol in most cases already because we're stressed out, right? We're running around, we're doing all the artificial lighting and all these things that are coming at us all the time. And so now we get this increase in cortisol. Well, cortisol is catabolic, it's not anabolic, it's catabolic. It also raises your blood sugar. So this is all going up. Cortisol also, like you, if you have too much cortisol, guess where you put the belly, the belly fat on because of the blood sugar dysregulation. So now we've got more fat going to our belly because of the cortisol going up, and cortisol can affect, of course, then the muscle tissue. And muscle is the biggest processor of glucose that we have. And I know you talk about this all the time, fellow. This is huge. So as the estrogen is going down, our muscle can be going down as well. It's gonna impact all of these things on how your body functions, how it repairs, how it recovers from your workouts. So why we would deny women estrogen during perimenopause, during this 10 years, is just it's mind-blowing that we say, no, you can't have it because all of these things are gonna start to compound on top of each other. And like it is, it's the metabolic storm.

Philip Pape: 23:05

Yeah, and does that storm, because I want to I want to talk about labs and markers and some of the things we've we've discussed on the other two times you were on, which for the listener, if they're curious, we did talk about testosterone in detail last time, and then ages ago for first time you were on, was just more general hormone and weight loss. But um, this storm, right? Is there an eye of the storm? Does it calm down? Does is there a fierce part of it? And the reason I ask is, you know, I hear this narrative of, okay, it's things accelerate, right, into the what I was calling the menopause transition, which was more of the short period right at the end. And then after that, are you, you know, do things calm down or are you kind of at a new baseline that's just suppressed all of this stuff for good? You know, like what exactly does that curve look like if you don't do anything?

Karen Martel: 23:51

The curve typically looks like it is the worst during perimenopause and during the first few years post-menopause. That is where we see the biggest impact on weight, on our metabolism, on our uh brain function, all of the things that start to be impacted by the loss of that estrogen and progesterone and testosterone really hits hard during those years. And then there is a somewhat of a plateau for most women where they come out the other side of it, they don't lose the weight. And you can look, you can see this, and it's unfortunate. You know, you look around, I can see the women that are on HRT, and I can see the women that aren't on HRT. And I people get really angry when I say this. They do, because then then they think that I'm insinuating that everybody's needs to be on HRT. That's not what I'm insinuating. But look at the average woman that's in her 60s, and it is a very common body type, which is once again the insulin resistant, the belly fat, you know, it starts to affect your vocal cords, your skin starts to age a lot faster without the estrogen on board and the progesterone and testosterone. You know, the hair thins, you know, the body starts to go down, like as far as like posture goes, because the bones, we need estrogen, test, we need all three hormones for bone health and bone regeneration. So bone health starts to go down, hearts, heart problems start to go up, things like this. So all of this, it stays with you. So what we'll see on labs is women that aren't on estrogen or have never been on HRT or little too too little HRT, their LDL will be up and usually out of range. Triglycerides will sometimes be up as well. Hemoglobin A1C and blood sugar are all up, and they tend to stay up. And you can look at this if you have older clients that are you know in their 60s, 70s, and this goes for men as well. And you look at their labs, most of them are insulin resistant to some degree, and then many go on to get type 2 diabetes. And it's not all from hormonal loss, of course, right? There's so many factors in this, but that is just typically what we see. But the emotional roller coaster, the hot flashes, night sweats, the continual weight gain, that seems to chill in once they get through to menopause a couple years in. It's not such a wild ride, and things can stabilize, but that's not for everybody. I mean, my mom is 70 and she still gets hot flashes. And you'll and I've talked to many women that have felt the same way. Um, a lot of the urigen, like the you know, women will get uh vaginal dryness, atrophy, uh chronic UTIs, like all of the the genocuritant. I always get it mixed up.

Philip Pape: 26:58

GSM will call it genital related uh diseases. I'll just go with that.

Karen Martel: 27:08

It's always a mouthful for me. Uh, but that is in 50% of women, that doesn't go away. You know, you you know, I've women will say like, no, my vagina's dried up. There's no it's it's not getting better as I age, it's staying the same. And it gets thinner, the skin gets thinner and thinner, and and that's a horrific thing to for women to go through. And it's it's absolutely terrible. I've talked to women that have said that they've torn, you know, through when they have sex, they tear, they have micro-tears, that they can't even have sex anymore. There, I had one woman early, oh, it's closed, like there's nothing getting in there. You know, and this is real all of this is reversible. A lot of it's reversible, which is nice to hear. But yeah, so I would say that for some women, yeah, it plateaus and it gets a little bit easier for sure.

Philip Pape: 27:58

So it's reversible. That's kind of the silver lining, but what if we just don't have the storm cloud at all? That's what we want to talk about now. How do we get ahead of the storm based on this bleak picture of the future that you don't want to have and decide I'm gonna take control of my health? Because I think that's what it comes down to is you're empowering yourself, listening to you know, your podcasts and others like it, that the healthcare industry may not be the one doing it. And I see that on my end. You and I were talking before we got on about performance-based blood work. You know, if you go to your doctor and you get just any old labs for whether it's cholesterol or testosterone or it's um blood markers or inflammatory markers, they have their ranges and it's based on sickness and disease. It's based on the population, it's not based on optimality, performance, and being proactive, right? So, and I know you you talk about this stuff all the time on your show. So, at what age should women start to do what to get ahead of it and at least understand, maybe I don't have to do anything, but I've got the knowledge, or hey, this is giving me the indicator that I need to think about that, you know, taking action.

Karen Martel: 28:55

Yeah. So embrace that you can't diet, you can't supplement, you can't intermittent fast and cold plunge your way out of hormonal loss. It's gonna happen to every single one of you. Whether you have symptoms or not, you know, it doesn't matter because what's going on on the inside happens to all of us, right? So you will lose bone. You are gonna lose cognitive function to some degree. Uh, you're gonna lose skin elasticity, you're gonna lose vaginal elasticity. Like these are things that just they depend so much on hormones that I don't know of any woman that isn't impacted by this. Like we start losing bone in our 30s, I do believe. Like it or even earlier. So this is happening across the board. And so it's really good to go, okay, I'm losing ovarian function, changing my diet is not going to bring back ovarian function. There's nothing that can. We're not there yet. One day I think we will be, but right now, no. There's nothing that's going to bring that back. And I think that that gives a big relief for women because this is the time to start looking now at your hormones. And now there are many things that they could do at that point. Like if you're in your late 30s, early 40s, and you're just starting to notice some of these things, oh my gosh, there's some great supplements that can really help with, you know, helping with the production of progesterone when you ovulate, helps with ovulation, helps helps with the hot flashes and night sweats. And so for sure, if you don't want to go to the HRT thing yet and you're still cycling regularly and your periods seem to be okay, for sure, support your system through the diet lifestyle and supplementation. But then when it starts to get to the point where those things are no longer working, you're getting up there in your age in your 40s, and then you go, okay, let's go in and test. We want to see what's your glutenizing hormone, what's your follicular stimulating hormone? These are brain hormones that are telling your ovaries what to do. And those signals and those levels of FSH and LH start to go up the harder they're having to work to get your ovaries to ovulate. And so that can be a really good sign for women to go, oh, I'm struggling here. I have a regular period. I would not have thought that my FSH was up. And so that's one of the markers that I always want to see is the FSH, because that really tells us a lot about estrogen because women can have regular periods, but their FSH can start to elevate, which is just telling us, once again, the brain is going, ovaries, come on, what are you doing? Like, like let's wake this up a little bit. Like, and so FSH in a fertile woman ideally is below 10. When and it fluctuates, there's a different range throughout the cycle. You're supposed to test it on day three is the ideal day to test it. So if uh you're a cycling woman, you're usually going to be around three to five on your the first, you know, within the first three days of your cycle. As you get older and you stop ovulating as often and your ovaries are starting to quit, then once it gets above 10, that's that's like okay, start watching. But if it gets above 20, I would say that is your like, oop, now I've got to really look at HRT because there's nothing else that's gonna bring that down except for HRT. And there's actually a little bit of research that shows like women that the FSH, when it gets above 23, is when they start to see the weight gain happen. So this can be a really good like indicator of what's coming down the pipeline and when to start intervening. And so for some women, it's just like baby baby dose of that estrogen during if they see that their FSH is 15, 20, and it's like, okay, maybe I need a little bit of estrogen, even at just certain times of my cycle. You know, this is when you want to work with a hormone practitioner. Progesterone for sure, like as you stop ovulating, your periods are getting heavier and they're getting maybe closer together, and your sex drive has gone out the window, you're not ovulating anymore. Because sex drive goes up for women when the when they ovulate, obviously. It takes and it tells us, go out and have sex, right? So women will say, like, my libido just is like gone and I'm bleeding super heavy and my periods are getting shorter. Progesterone. Because remember, if you don't ovulate, you're not producing progesterone, and that's your signs. And so putting in some progesterone in the second half of your cycle can be a lifesaver for women and fast, like where they start using it and they're like, oh, like this is amazing. I sleep, my mood's better, I don't have anxiety anymore, I feel so good, I lost five pounds. And they can ride that out, they can ride the progesterone train by itself for a while, typically. And then, like I said, mid to late 40s. Now we're gonna watch that estradiol. And as that FSH goes up and the estradiol goes down, which is very hard to test at this point because, like I said, it's a roller coaster ride. So you'll sometimes test it and it looks great, and it's like, well, that looks okay, that's enough. And then, you know, suddenly you're getting hot flashes and night sweats, and you're like, what? But my estrogen was fine. So really go on symptoms, right? So estrogen, once again, really important for libido. People think it's all testosterone. Heck no, we want estrogen for libido too. And so if you're getting these little symptoms like the hot flashes, night sweats, a little bit, you know, a lot of weight gain or a little bit of weight gain in the belly weight gain, dry skin, dry hair, itchy ears, all of this is signs that your estrogen is not high enough for you. So it could look okay on paper, and your doctor could be like, you're great, you're in, you're well within your range. Well, the freaking range is like if you're between 20 and 400, you're good. So for you, and every woman's different. Me, I'm very estrogen driven. So when my estrogen even drops a little bit, and I have a high SHBG, which means I have a lot of my estrogens getting bound up and not being used. And so for me, if my estrogen drops even a tiny bit, it's a I get every symptom in the book. And so I'm very sensitive. So I have to keep my estrogen up. And I've talked to other women, they didn't even notice anything. They're like, it just gets lower and lower and lower. And then they're like, Well, do I need the estrogen? I don't have hot flashes, I feel good, I don't have vaginal dryness. I'm like, I feel awesome. Can you feel your bones going? Can you feel the muscle going? You know, like there's things that you can't see. What about your brain? You know, you may not think that you you or you may think that you're fine, but maybe you're not with your cognition. You know, it impacts your sleep, it impacts your mood, it helps to estrogen helps us to make serotonin. So it's, you know, if you're a little bit more depressed, if you don't have the energy, it helps with dopamine, it helps with glutamate, it's like oxytocin. So it's like help even thyroid sensitivity. So these things women don't maybe realize are from estrogen loss. And so you just you want to monitor, you want to tune into yourself and go, you know what? I am a little, I'm not how I was five years ago. So maybe we, you know, biohack ourselves, put in a little baby dose of estrogen, and just see how it makes us feel. The beauty of hormones is you stop them, it's a it's gone in a day. So it's not like you're gonna have this like lasting impact. So if you don't feel well when you start taking HRT, then that's your sign that either you don't need it, or you need a different delivery form, or you need a different dosage.

Philip Pape: 37:26

So anybody listening might be thinking, well, that's really great information and it's overwhelming, uh, Karen. Because I was thinking when I try to communicate anything in this optimization realm or performance realm or health. You mentioned biohacking. I love the idea of experimentation, right? Especially when you can get a quick feedback like that. You mentioned several buckets, and I just want to like reframe them from what you said to me for the audience. The first one is the first one is the biomarkers, which which I'm categorizing as your labs, you know, it could be urine tests, could be saliva. Like there's different forms of this, and you're the expert in that. And go check out Karen's podcast for like deep dives on you know specific labs and tests and all that. Um, so there's that, but then understanding how to interpret that, which is where the real trick is in terms of optimal ranges, but also your range and your trend over time and understanding what you should be, plus cycle to cycle, which for women is an extra wrinkle that you know, men don't have to deal with that. So that's kind of the blood work optimization or biomarker piece. The second piece you mentioned is symptoms, which I'll I'll label as part of biofeedback, right? That is just your body's telling you something. And it could be in a so many different ways. Like you said, it could be physical manifestation, it could be mental, it could be uh emotional anxiety, and um, it could be just things that aren't what they used to be for you, like like you said, you know, libido and vaginal dryness or whatever. And then the, I guess the last bucket I heard, and maybe I'm missing something, is self-experimentation of you've got to do something at some point to at least understand this beyond just the data and trying the progesterone cream or trying the estrogen. And a lot of these are safe. And like, you know, the Women's Health Initiative did did horrible things for our understanding of safety in this world. But understanding that means you could approach it with a little more freedom and flexibility to try things, get off of them, and not worry if it's gonna like grow a third arm or something. Um, and I'm just just joking, but you know, or it's gonna give you cancer, which is the real serious thing people are worried about. Did I kind of paraphrase like the big buckets, Karen, that we just talked about?

Karen Martel: 39:33

Yeah, I think that that's a great way to put them all into the buckets like that. And and and I don't want to overwhelm, like I I always try really hard not to overwhelm the woman, right? Because you get so much information out there, menopause is a real hot topic right now. There's all these different opinions. And the bottom line is when we look at the research, we know we see that they're very safe. And you always have to remind yourself you had these hormones for the majority of your life. And so when you question, like, oh, like maybe I'm not a good candidate, or maybe I shouldn't do research here. Is this dangerous? Is it gonna cause cancer? Is this blah, blah, blah, blah? Did you think like that when you were 16 years old, when you were flooded with these hormones? No. And so hormones are part of our physiology. And yes, menopause is natural and all of that. And people will say, Yeah, but this is natural for us to lose our hormones. Well, it's natural for us to also get heart disease and die early. Like that's the this is the thing. And it's like, well, what's the alternative? You know, we we are trying as a species to live longer and longer, and we are grabbing on to anything and everything that helps us do that. We're taking the supplements, the medication, the everything, the diets, and so hormones are in those categories where it's like at least these are bioidentical. This is something your body's produced in your whole majority of your life, and they impact our wellness. And without them, we do start to age much faster. And they've done their research on this. They did one study that showed that women within like six months of being in menopause biologically aged nine years. So biological ages, how fast are you aging on the inside? That's insane. And so hormones are one solution to this life of ours, that we want to live an optimal life. We want to stay as healthy as we possibly can. Then hormones should be something to be looked at and don't get dogmatic about it. Don't think like, I'm not gonna do hormones, and so I'm gonna, I see this all the time, right? I'm better than all of you, basically, because I don't need to take hormones, or I'm not going to, and I'm going to get through this without them. And it's not a badge of honor to do that. It to me, that's stupidity. It's like, why would you say that? You know, like because what are you saying to all the women that are suffering immensely? Do you know that women, the highest rate of suicide is women in menopause and perimenopause? So to say that, what you're saying to some woman who, you know, is on the brink of taking her own life because of the loss of these hormones. You're saying to her that she is weak and that oh, she should be able to get through this. And we don't want that. Like if you're cho if you're choosing not to do hormones, great, that's your choice. Awesome. But don't make it sound like it's that oh, some other woman for choosing to do hormones is in the wrong and is less than you. Yeah. And I think that that's like really important to get across.

Philip Pape: 43:08

It is because you see that a lot, that kind of messaging a lot in the fitness industry on Instagram with a lot of things, especially by younger people who haven't experienced it yet. Let's be honest, who are like, yes, like I'm gonna do it now.

Karen Martel: 43:21

People that didn't have it bad, and they're like, oh, it's that bad.

Philip Pape: 43:24

Different experiences. Same thing with GLP1s, like having talked to like I was a little bit a little bit intransigally when it came out, just for a brief moment. And then I shaped up after talking to just a couple human beings who like have experiences, right? Which is what happens in that um, yeah, it's a tool, and you choose to do it, and nobody should judge you, and you shouldn't judge them, and whatever. So speaking of actually speaking of the GLP1s, GOP1 agonists and all the new ones coming out, where does that play into the hormone situation? You know, I'm not we talk a lot about appetite and weight loss and all that, but specifically with HRT and GLP1, like what's the overlap or interaction? And what should people be aware of if they're gonna do one or both potentially? Um, yeah, because that's kind of a new new thing now.

Karen Martel: 44:12

It is. And we we started using GLP1s a couple years ago in our clinic. I also took them. Um it and it was a lifesaver for me. Like it really was. It it changed, it literally changed my life. And and I hear this all the time from women. And there's some women that, you know, no matter what they do, no matter what, they can't get off the weight that they gained from menopause. And it's and we don't know why, because these women will replace their hormones, they'll they'll be lifting weights, they're prioritizing protein, they're doing all the right things, myself included, and they still can't get it off. Like I got some of mine off through prioritizing more protein and lifting heavier with with my trainer, Pam Sherman, who you know. And she really helped me out, and I was able to get off quite a bit of weight, but I still was left with probably about 10 pounds that I just couldn't shake. And I was like, okay, well, I guess this is it. Like, this is my body now. I'm gonna accept it. And then the GOP1s came out, and I'm like, hmm, I'll try that. Yeah, why not? I've been waiting for this my whole life. It's a medication that actually works for weight loss that doesn't make you suffer. And I I did very small doses, I never went very high. I got off that 10 pounds plus another five, which you can see I'm not too skinny. I don't have wasempic face. I didn't take it too far, which for sure some people do. And I just take a very micro dose now, and it's really helped all my markers, it's really helped with my menopause. I don't get night sweats anymore. You know, I can keep my body at a really good weight, which is awesome. Like to be. I'm 40, I'm turning 50 in a couple months. And I'm like, oh my God, I look better now than I did at 40. And this has helped from hormones, it's helped from my lifestyle for sure, but also from the GLP ones because, and it's like, that's such a nice thing to be able to have that as a tool for menopausal women that you know, all else fails. We could have, you know, a micro dose of these GLP ones, get off that weight that we gain, go back to ourselves. And that's a it's it's glorious. Like it's just a huge relief. And we get a lot of the that's what we get for in our peptide program, is we get that midlife woman that and you uh you get the stories all day long in the community of I hit perimenopause, I hit menopause, I I hit 52, I'm 55, I gained 20 pounds, I cannot shake it. I've been trying to lose this 20 pounds for the last five years. It will not budge. I don't know what else to do. And then they go on these and they lose the weight, and they're just like, they're so grateful. And the research shows that women that are on hormone replacement therapy and do and go on a GLP one, that they'll lose 45% more weight than a woman that's not on HRT. So that just goes to show that you know it's really important to have those tools in place, even though you're doing even though you're doing a GLP one, which is a quick fix, but it is important to have the diet in place, the HRT in place, the weightlifting in place so you don't lose the muscle. Do it right. Like I really, really I what I promote the most is we can do these and we can do them in a way that is safe and that is right for the body. And what what we're seeing and all the fear-mongering, a lot of it is because it's not being done right and they they're being overdosed and they're not eating well, they're not being taught how to eat properly and work out, you know, and take the proper supplements and stuff like that while you're doing it. So it is important to do that.

Philip Pape: 48:05

Yeah, and by the time this episode comes out, the one with Jamie Sells or would have come out, or we get into some of those exact topics. But it's funny because I think of some of my very earliest clients before any of this stuff existed, where they were consistent, they were training, they were controlling for their calories, they were eating protein. Some of them were even on HRT, and something was just keeping that metabolism lower. And I wonder, so with the GLP ones, I mean, it really is just the appetite that it affects. I mean, that we know that's basically all it does. The the dual agonist does a little bit more, and then there's new ones in the pipeline. Like Eli Lilly has a triple agonist that affects your like liver fat and glucagon, right?

Karen Martel: 48:45

I think it's way more than the appetite.

Philip Pape: 48:47

Oh, well, you mean just the semaglitide? Yeah, you're right. It's like addiction and everything else. Is that where you're gonna go?

Karen Martel: 48:53

But not even like it is. Yes, I do. But number one.

Philip Pape: 48:59

I was gonna actually ask that. I was gonna, I was setting that up. I was setting up the question, not like saying it as truth. I was gonna say, so what worked for you then? Like, were you controlling, were you monitoring your calories and did you eat less, or did you eat roughly the same and you just actually started losing?

Karen Martel: 49:13

I definitely ate less.

Philip Pape: 49:15

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Karen Martel: 49:16

I definitely ate less, and that the appetite suppression is definitely a real thing. And it's like, oh my god, it's so it can be really hard to eat. And sometimes that's actually a sign that you need to lower the dose because you still want to be able to put in the calories, and because the weight loss isn't dependent only on the appetite suppression, which is a very weird thing, but so I'm two years out since I've lost the weight. Okay. So I went on it, I lost the weight, and then I've been maintaining since. And I'm at such a low dose that my hunger is the same. I'm eating the same amount of calories as I did pre-GLP one, and I'm not gaining any weight back. And even the pre my practitioner, she's like my peptide hormone coach that does all of our coaching. She's jacked. She should see her. She's shredded. Like you've never seen a woman like this. It's just she's crazy, huge guns on her. And she's been on the GLP ones for she had total weight loss resistance, could not, no matter how much she worked out, could not lose the weight. And like me, it was maybe like a 15-pound extra weight on her, but she didn't like that, right? Like maybe 15-20 pounds. Anyway, so she loses it on GLP ones. She now, she was just telling me the other day, she averages, I think she said 2300 calories a day. She's maintained the weight loss, and she she eats a hundred, I think she said 150 grams of protein a day. So she's not having any problems. And she is not, she has not gained any weight back. My thyroid, I had to lower my thyroid medication, which I'd been on the same dose of thyroid for seven years. I had to lower it because my thyroid started to function better and my levels went over range. So that's metabolism. My metabolism got better. My friend Dr. Amy Horneman, she's a the thyroid doctor. Same thing with her. She's been on the same dose for 10 years, and she had to lower her medication because she's she was my redosing GLP1. Lowers inflammation, it does something to the metabolism. It's so it's like the appetite suppression that tends to go away after a couple of months or lighten up for most people. And everybody freaks out, oh, my hunger's coming back. Should I increase my dose? And we're always like, no, don't increase. Like, don't increase unless you've been stalled out for a while. You know, if you're not losing weight and you still have more to lose, okay, slightly increase the dose then. But in most cases, hunger starts to come back and the weight still continues to come off.

Philip Pape: 52:08

You need to eat more. It's like you do need to eat more in that case, right? To maintain the same. Yeah, I've heard it's gonna be interesting because I it's too early for any long-term studies to tell us exactly what's going on. It will be fascinating to see. By the way, Amy Horneman's coming on not till next year, though. So I didn't know your friends are there. I would have reached out. Yeah, no, she's very busy. Oh, it's amazing. I try not to, you know, you know, take too much advantage of our contacts.

Heather: 52:36

Yeah. Hello, my name is Heather, and I am a client of Philip Pape's. Just six days after I started this cut, my family and I were in a 7.9 magnitude earthquake here in Adana, Turkey. As I tried to process the stress and trauma, my first instinct was to say, oh, you've been through something hard. This is not a good time. But instead, I reached out to my coach and he got me under the bar that day, and he helped me keep my macros that day. And not only did I realize that I was doing something fantastic for my body, but I realized that I was doing something fantastic for my mind, and that it was going to help me keep the mental clarity that I was gonna need to get my family through what really has been a very difficult two months. Here I am on the other side of eight weeks. Got my kids through all the things that we have been through. And I weigh 12 pounds less than I did, and I got a new PR on my bench press. I have a long way to go, and there are still things that I really want to accomplish, but now I know that I can, and I'm really grateful. Thank you, Philip.

Philip Pape: 53:38

Yeah, it's just it's a whole thing. I mean, there's we're gonna be talking about this stuff for ages, and there's still gonna be lots of controversies about it. But look, if from a medical and a health and a metabolism standpoint, there are other benefits that we start to see, it'll be fascinating. Not to mention, I did mention addiction, like people who have addictive, get more addictive brain chemistry are helped tremendously to the point where they may need to be on it for the rest of their life, so to speak. But yeah, no, I I guess that that's all that's all I wanted to cover on that.

Karen Martel: 54:04

Well, and well, and women have so much, like, I mean, so do men, of course, but you talk to these women and myself included, where their whole life uh was spent watching everything they put in their mouth: calorie counting, exercising, doing the math, like freaking out about, oh my God, I ate the cupcake. Oh no, okay, I'm gonna have to like intermittent fast tomorrow. I'm gonna have to like go low carb, I'm gonna have to go keto, I'm gonna have like we as women drive ourselves insane. I have been thinking that way since I was 13 years old. I have been fighting my weight and I've been fighting with everything that I put in my mouth. It was always a constant tally in my brain. I'm not proud of this, but it's just the way it was because I was so I could so easily gain weight that if I if I wasn't that strict, I would immediately start to gain weight. So I had to be so careful of everything that I ate. And I had to stay eating like paleo and grain-free and low carb and watch my blood sugar and make sure I exercised and all of these things. Not to have to worry about that for the first time since I was 13 is like I can't believe how much uh space I have in my brain to think of other things. It's just a huge mental relief. And I hear this all the time from women that have had the same struggles where they've fought this their whole life, and maybe they had food addiction and sugar addiction, and they've were obese their whole life, and then suddenly they can lose the weight. It is like, how can some I just don't understand how people judge that? How do people judge that somebody wants to take this medication?

Philip Pape: 55:52

Right.

Karen Martel: 55:53

Food addiction is is just as harsh as cocaine addiction, for heaven's sakes, but yet people don't see it like that. It's like, well, you chose that, you you could choose to exercise, you could choose to eat better, and it's like, screw you, you don't know what it's like to be overweight and not to have the energy to work out or the mental capacity to eat well, and maybe you've got sugar addiction or food addiction, like it's a disease.

Philip Pape: 56:20

Yeah, and everything you kind of alluded to when you said talked about stress and addiction in the brain, and makes me think of the um some of the work that like Stephen Guillonet talks about, uh you know, he's about about brain-related genes and how um, you know, the genetic component, there's such a difference between people. Um, there's another guy I want to get on the show, I forget his name, that he's like 19 or 20, and he's like a genius when it comes to appetite research. And he talks about this stuff all the time. There's such a wide spectrum that what if, Karen, it's just the fact that you're reducing that anxiety and that brain, that cognitive load and all that stress. And that's why your metabolism's approving. I don't know, right? Like so many things that cascade.

Karen Martel: 56:59

And a lot of people will say that. They'll say, I don't have anxiety anymore, I don't have the the hamster brain anymore. And they don't know what it's what it's doing, but they're like, I've I have so much relief in my brain from taking GLP1s. People that have inflammation, they're like, My inflammation's gone, my gut's better. Like all of these things can start to improve. And I think, you know, would we ever say to the person that's been depressed their whole life or been riddled with anxiety and they choose to go on an antidepressant or they choose to go on an anti-anxiety? Would we sit there? Would we attack them the way people are being attacked for taking a GLP one? Right. Never. And would we start to do you see all over social media the side effects of SSRIs? Hello. The side effects are they're long lists. So, yes, GLP ones, yes, they can have side effects for sure. And we don't want those side effects. However, the the like, do does the good outweigh the bad? I think so.

Philip Pape: 58:03

Yeah, yeah. Is that and it's all individual. It it's funny you mentioned the um, well, not the SSRs, but I did an episode called Osempic Envy or something. I came up with this term called Osempic Envy. It was the idea that there's this like weight loss wars that are war that are waged in public on social media, just like there's political wars waged in public where if you were in a room with human beings, you would not be talking like that or treating each other that way because it's on such a point. We do this. So it's like imagine you're in the room with the person, how would that conversation go, you know? Um I wanna the I guess the last thought I have about all this, because we're I know we're barely scratching the surface, but it's going back to the complexity of some of this is our healthcare industry is inadequate, in my opinion. I think I think in yours as well, to address this. And if, you know, unless you get lucky and there's an individual here or there, what does the future hold? Like, I this is more of an optimism side of me trying to and trying to pull this out of you too, Karen. Like, what does the future hold as the different industries change, as maybe there's more practitioners like you, as maybe technology like AI or and more advanced like labs and genetic testing comes into play? Like, how do you see all this coming together like 20 years from now? What are women gonna have as their resources? What is your vision for the future?

Karen Martel: 59:17

I have a really positive vision. Like, I really see a lot of change happening, and there's you'll get the naysayers on social media, they're like, oh, menopause is just becoming a money grab and blah, blah, blah. And it's like, you know what, you guys, stop. Like, we need to be talking about it. Even like the good, the bad, all of it. We need to be talking about it. And it's finally getting talked about. So it's like, let us let us talk about it, let us scream it from the mountaintops, because only four to seven, I think it went went from four to seven percent of women are on HRT. So the majority of the public, the women, then there's millions and millions of women that are in menopause. So majority are not on HRT and are not getting. This information, so we may see it because we're in social media and in the field in this field, but majority of women still don't get have that information. Doctors don't have that information, and they're trying to change that. And I see that change coming. I mean, we just had a big panel at the FDA where they're working on getting rid of the black box warning off of the estrogen package packages because right now it says estrogen causes cancer. And they have zero, zero research to back that up. And so they're like, why is this on here? Like this just is unnecessarily scaring women that they something that could really benefit them. Like, take this off. And so that's gonna happen, I think. I think that they're gonna start. There was another woman that was at Congress that was trying to get so that um in med school that doctors that there was more on education on menopause. Because right now, less than 7% of doctors are taught anything about menopause. And if they are taught something, it's like, you know, a couple hours basically, and that is it. But none of them are taught anything about perimenopause, none of them are taught about bioidentical hormones. They actually have to go get extra training for that. So I think more doctors are going to start to be educated in this. Public is starting to be more educated in this as we're becoming, you know, more and more, we're taking our health into our own hands. And so it's all about finding the right information out there with podcasts and blogs and all of this. And so I see that women are becoming more and more empowered. They're seeing that, hey, you can be 50 and you can rock your 50s, 60s, 70s, and beyond. And like you can do it in a way that is super healthy. You can use hormones, you can work out, you can lift weights, you can take the right cell phones, all these amazing biohacks, peptides, peptides are exploding. And these can be incredible, not just weight loss. I'm not talking weight loss peptides, I'm talking about all the other peptides. There's hundreds, if not thousands, of them at this point. And they can be this amazing like therapy that, you know, working with somebody that understands peptides, it they can enhance everything. I've tried, I've tried so many different ones, like growth hormones and uh mitochondrial stuff. And like, I love it. I love being my own like little biohacker and taking my health into my own hands and being like, how good can I feel? And so I just think we're gonna start seeing more and more of this. And women are gonna start taking more and more in charge of their own health and go, oh, I can, I can feel amazing. It doesn't matter what age I'm at.

Philip Pape: 1:02:40

That's great. So it's like uh it's like a perfect storm the other direction, the way we want it to go, right? Maybe a little regulation over here, education for doctors over here, controlling your health, lots of choices, lots of options. Who knows what amazing technology is going to come down the bike path. I I tend to go to that first as my engineering brain of like, oh, we can get AI and clone Karen's brain, and then we can, you know, get everybody the hormone help they need, you know?

Karen Martel: 1:03:05

I think that's all coming. I do. And I think there's lots of like cool at-home testing that's happening right now where women are able to test their hormones from home, like by just peeing on a stick, and they have these little devices now, and we're gonna start seeing like stem cell transplants for the ovaries that's happening right now in Mexico where they're rejuvenating the ovaries. You know, it's not legal here, but it's legal that they do. Well, let them try it out first. Yeah, it's like ridiculous expensive. I'm like, why wouldn't I just take hormones? I'm like, I asked the guy, I met the guy that owns the clinic, and I'm like, it's like $30,000 for treatment of the ovaries, and you might get a couple more years before you hit menopause. And I'm like, nah, just take the hormones. It's cheaper. But these are all things that are happening, and I think that we're demanding that more research is done on women and on women's bodies. And I think that that's starting to happen. We're starting to see some really cool stuff coming out of different uh, like Felice Gersh is coming out. She's come out with some great research papers on hormone replacement therapy. Um, Louise Newson, these are like the menopause like gurus in social media. The Newsom Clinic, she just came out with some new research. Uh, mental health stuff is coming out, like being brought more awareness is being brought to it. So I think that it's going in the right direction. Of course, you're always gonna get the shit with it. Sorry if you don't swear on your podcast, but you're always gonna get the garbage going along with the good. And that's all gonna be part of it. You're gonna get the people that are out just trying to make money. It's like, well, whatever. Like, just who cares? You know, it's just do what's right for you and your health and educate yourself on it.

Philip Pape: 1:04:48

Totally agree, totally agree. And that's what we're trying to do, right? So people need to connect with you. I'm sure a lot of our listeners already know you, Karen, but I want you to connect with them even more. So I'm gonna mention one thing and then I want to turn over to you to send them the best place. For those of you who are already in physique university, um, you're gonna get to see Karen in there on the 14th of October for a live QA. You can ask her anything you want.

Karen Martel: 1:05:10

I love it.

Philip Pape: 1:05:10

Yeah, there you go. So if you're in there and you're listening, you get it included. If you're not, I'll have a link to register. Yes, just full transparency. It's a paid coaching program, but it's very accessible. And so if you want to see Karen in there, that's your chance. Karen, where would you like people to go right now and check you out? All right.

Karen Martel: 1:05:28

So I got something for everybody, which I'm so happy I get to offer that. But we can prescribe in every state. So I run and own a telemedicine clinic where we focus on women in midlife. We do not deny the woman that's in her perimetopausal years hormones. Uh, and so we take a very functional approach to HRT, which I feel is is missing and is lacking a little bit right now. And so we look at every, we look at the lifestyle, and and Phil's gonna come into my group as well and do a QA. And so we focus a lot on, you know, all the lifestyle aspects and then as well the HRT, and we really try and look at everyone from an individual standpoint. We don't, we're not, you know, set on one type of protocol or delivery form. It's like, what is gonna work for you? And we will work for you with you until we find what is gonna make you feel your best and to give you that protection, the heart, the brain, bone protection that these hormones can give you. And if you choose not to do hormones, well, we've got a whole arsenal of other stuff that we can help you with that well, if you're choosing not to do hormones, that we can still do all of these other things that would it's gonna help you to age better. And then on top of that, I also have a membership group for those that can't afford the private coaching. Um, we also have this very affordable group where we have an amazing community of women. We've it's been going for like seven or eight years now. And uh, and then I also just came out with my own line of over-the-counter hormone creams and oils, which is amazing. Um, and I'd love to give your audience a coupon for them. So these are creams and oils that contain bioidentical USP grade hormones. These are no different than the hormones that are in them are no different than what you would get from a pharmacy. That's the grade they're at. We do all sort of like third-party certificate of analysis and purity of the hormones. They're very clean products, and they are marketed as beauty cosmetic hormones and creams. That's how we can promote them and how we can sell them online without a prescription. And many, many women buy these. We have an incredible estrogen face cream that has been shown to just do absolute wonders for the face, um, shrinks your pores, helps with your fine lines, etc. Uh, just came out with a vaginal moisturizer. Uh, we've got a progesterone melatonin oil that's amazing for sleep. So that's, you know, I'll pump up my own stuff here, but it's it's such an awesome thing to be able to offer women because it's so affordable. It's way more affordable than prescription hormones. And you don't need you don't need the actual prescription.

Philip Pape: 1:08:22

What's the name of the line? What is like what's the brand? Or what do you call it?

Karen Martel: 1:08:25

Hormone solutions.

Philip Pape: 1:08:26

Hormone solutions. Okay, just like you. So if everybody wants to grab that, you can go to witsandweights.com slash Karen Martell and you'll get uh 10% off with my code Wits and Waits. Um, I'm gonna be checking those out myself. I know we have a lot of women in the community that would be interested. And then Karen's uh hormone coaching, which I hear nothing but great things about over the years that I've known her. And then this new telemedicine clinic is awesome. I love that uh direct approach to healthcare in a way that's individualized and functional. So thank you, Karen, so much again for doing this with me. I'm excited for our upcoming collaborations, and I hope everybody listening really enjoyed and got a lot of this episode. I know they did. Thank you so much, Karen. Thanks for having me.

Build Muscle Without BULKING for "Lean Gains" | Ep 384

Join Physique University for our new IGNITE 🔥 training template (4-day upper/lower time-saving split) - use code FREEPLAN for a free custom nutrition plan when you join: https://witsandweights.com/physique

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You MUST "bulk" to build muscle... right?

Eat more, gain weight, accept getting fluffy, then cut it all off later with a fat loss phase... right?

Not necessarily.

What if bulking is inefficient for YOUR goals? What if you could build muscle while staying lean year-round?

Learn why you might NOT need a calorie surplus to build muscle and a unique approach called aggressive maintenance where you can skip bulking entirely while getting the strong, lean, aesthetic body you're going for.

Main Takeaways:

• Traditional bulking optimizes for throughput (total muscle gain), while aggressive maintenance optimizes for efficiency (muscle gain per unit of input)

• You CAN build muscle at maintenance calories when 3 things are dialed in

• Certain individuals partition nutrients more efficiently toward muscle vs. fat and are better candidates for skipping the bulk

• There are "hidden" but powerful factors that enable muscle growth without bulking

Episode Resources:

• Review the podcast by October 15 for a chance to win 3 months free in Physique University Mastery Track ($261 value). Leave a review at Apple Podcasts... EVERYONE who leaves a review will get a gift from me :)

Timestamps:

0:00 - Why bulking might be inefficient for you
3:45 - Efficiency vs. throughput
8:20 - How muscle growth works without a surplus
13:15 - What is aggressive maintenance?
19:00 - Glycogen, neurological adaptations, and energy flux
24:10 - Who benefits most from skipping the bulk
28:15 - Operating at design limits without exceeding them

Build Muscle Without the Bulk

If you’ve ever felt stuck in the bulk–cut cycle, wondering if getting fluffy every winter is really the only way to build muscle, you’re not alone. Traditional wisdom says that muscle gain requires a big calorie surplus, steady weight gain, and months of extra body fat before dieting it off. But there’s a more efficient, sustainable path that works—especially for trained lifters and busy professionals who want to look strong year-round. It’s called aggressive maintenance, and it lets you build lean muscle without the constant see-saw of bulking and cutting.

This approach flips the script on what we’ve been told about muscle growth and shows that you can make measurable gains at (or barely above) maintenance calories—if you optimize your nutrition, training, and recovery with surgical precision.

The Problem With Traditional Bulking

Bulking works. If your only goal is to gain muscle as fast as possible, eating in a surplus of 200 to 500 calories above maintenance is the most direct route. But there’s a catch. Surpluses past a few hundred calories mostly drive fat gain, not additional muscle. Muscle protein synthesis (MPS)—the process of building new muscle—plateaus quickly. After that point, extra calories are just stored energy.

Think of it like an assembly line. Once production runs at full capacity, throwing in more raw materials doesn’t speed things up—it just creates waste. A traditional bulk maximizes throughput (total muscle built), but not efficiency (muscle gained per calorie). For many people, that inefficiency leads to frustration, body-fat swings, and months of cutting later just to reveal the same muscle that could have been gained more strategically.

What “Aggressive Maintenance” Really Means

Aggressive maintenance focuses on efficiency over speed. Instead of overeating, you hover right around maintenance calories—often within 50 to 100 calories above it—while optimizing protein, training, and recovery so your body directs those calories toward lean mass instead of fat.

It’s not about losing fat or gaining fat. It’s about maintaining body weight while gradually increasing muscle tissue and potentially improving body composition over time. This approach works because you’re removing the main bottlenecks to growth: inadequate protein, poor training stimulus, and poor recovery.

How Muscle Grows Without a Surplus

Muscle growth happens when muscle protein synthesis exceeds muscle protein breakdown. You can tilt this balance in your favor at maintenance if three conditions are met:

1. Protein is sufficient.
   Aim for 0.7 to 1.0 grams of protein per pound of body weight daily. Total daily intake matters far more than timing. This gives your body the raw material it needs to repair and build tissue.

2. Training drives progressive overload.
   Lift hard. Train close to failure. Use compound movements as your foundation and track progression over time. Mechanical tension—not calories—is the key signal for growth.

3. Recovery supports adaptation.
   Sleep 7–9 hours per night, manage stress, and keep inflammation in check. Recovery is the multiplier that allows your body to respond to training even without extra calories.

If these three are dialed in, you can grow muscle slowly at maintenance—especially if you’re consistent and patient.

Why It Works: Nutrient Partitioning and Energy Flux

Leaner, active individuals partition nutrients more effectively toward muscle tissue. That means the same meal that might store as fat in a sedentary person helps a trained lifter repair muscle. Daily movement (especially walking) and high-quality resistance training both improve insulin sensitivity and nutrient partitioning, allowing your body to build muscle even without a traditional surplus.

There’s also energy flux—the idea that eating and moving more increases your total energy turnover. When you move more, you can eat more and still maintain body weight, keeping metabolism high while fueling muscle recovery. It’s the sweet spot between dieting and bulking.

Building Your Aggressive Maintenance Plan

Start with your estimated maintenance calories (for most, 13–15 times body weight in pounds) and eat roughly that amount, adding a small 50–100-calorie buffer.

• Protein: 0.7–1.0 g per lb body weight

• Fats: 0.3–0.4 g per lb body weight

• Carbs: Fill in the rest with complex sources and target the bulk of them around workouts for performance and glycogen replenishment

For training, use a moderate-to-high volume hypertrophy plan (10–15 sets per muscle group weekly) with progressive overload and recovery days built in. Compound lifts form the base; isolation work fine-tunes weak points.

If you’re short on time, check out efficient programs like the IGNITE 4-Day Upper-Lower Template in Physique University. It uses supersets, drop sets, and strategic volume to fit hypertrophy training into 30-minute sessions without sacrificing results.

The Hidden Levers That Accelerate Lean Gains

• Sleep architecture: Deep and REM sleep trigger growth hormone and recovery. Poor sleep can erase the benefits of training, even in a surplus.

• Carb timing: Carbs before and after lifting help refill glycogen, signaling an anabolic environment at maintenance.

• Activity outside the gym: High step counts and NEAT (non-exercise activity thermogenesis) enhance nutrient delivery to muscle.

• Micronutrients: Adequate magnesium, zinc, vitamin D, and electrolytes support hormonal balance and muscle adaptation.

• Consistency: The real “secret.” Without it, none of this matters.

Who Should Skip the Bulk

Aggressive maintenance works best for:

• Overweight individuals who already have energy reserves

• Detrained lifters returning to training (muscle memory effect)

• New lifters experiencing neurological and beginner gains

• Midlife athletes and busy professionals who want to stay lean year-round

• Anyone prioritizing aesthetics and sustainability over short bursts of size

Those chasing maximal strength or advanced hypertrophy may still need full bulks eventually, but they’ll benefit from spending time in this phase first.

Common Pitfalls to Avoid

• Expecting bulking-level muscle gain rates

• Undereating carbs and tanking training performance

• Neglecting recovery and sleep

• Over-tracking or constantly changing macros instead of letting trends play out

Aggressive maintenance is a slow burn. You might gain only a couple of pounds over six months—but if your waist shrinks, lifts go up, and you look leaner, that’s the point.

The Takeaway

You don’t have to choose between bulking up and staying lean. You can build muscle efficiently by operating near maintenance and optimizing the system around it. Think of it as an engineering problem: precision inputs, measured feedback, and sustainable throughput.

If you’re ready to implement this, join Physique University at witsandweights.com/physique and use code FREEPLAN for a free custom nutrition plan with your membership. You’ll also get access to the new IGNITE training template and our full course library.

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Transcript

Philip Pape: 0:01

If you want to build muscle, you need to bulk. At least that's what you hear all the time. You have to eat more, you have to gain weight, you have to accept getting a little fluffy in that calorie surplus and then cut it off later with a fat loss phase. What if that approach is inefficient, at least for you? What if you could build muscle while staying lean year-round? In this episode, you're gonna learn why muscle protein synthesis does not require a calorie surplus the way you think it does. You'll discover the principles of what I call aggressive maintenance, and you'll find out who can skip bulking entirely and still make gains versus who might still want to bulk, including the hidden factors like sleep and energy flux that many people ignore. Welcome to Wits and Weights, the show that helps you build a strong, healthy physique using evidence, engineering, and efficiency. I'm your host, certified nutrition coach Philip Pape. And today we're talking about something that often challenges conventional wisdom in the lifting world: building muscle, but without bulking. If you've ever felt trapped by this need to bulk and cut, and you wonder, is there a smarter way to add lean mass without the fat gain roller coaster? This episode is definitely for you. But I also want to give a caveat that to get the quickest gain in muscle, you're gonna have to have a surplus of some kind. I'm just gonna get that out of the way. But we're not necessarily talking about the quickest path here. We're talking about efficiency. And efficiency often means looking at the next six months, the next year, the next two years, and where you want to be with your physique at any given time to get the final result, which may take a little longer, but the way you get there is more sustainable for you. So we're gonna break down the science and the systems behind what I call aggressive maintenance. I've covered this topic here and there in the context of body recomposition. But today I'm specifically focusing on the muscle building side, not so much the fat loss side. This is really about engineering the whole system, your nutrition, your training, your recovery, your nutrient partitioning, doing it efficiently so that you are biasing muscle rather than fat all while eating around maintenance calories and not having, quote unquote, to bulk. And I'm gonna tell you who can benefit from this the most. Now, before we get into that, I definitely want to share a couple listener reviews that came in recently on Apple. Just two. The first one I really love, it is from Laura Lai 1964. She says Philip provides relevant and evidence-backed information on nutrition and resistance training. If you were ever on the fence about whether you should introduce resistance training to see change, listen to this podcast. Science-backed evidence proves it's a huge key to longevity, and Philip breaks it all down. He has top-notch guests on as well, which has led me to other great podcasts. One more thing. He's so fun to listen to, always has a smile in his voice. Thank you, Philip Bape. And you just made me smile, which is hopefully why you hear that on a regular basis. I try to be optimistic about this stuff. I think, like a stoic, we have many things in our control. And if we focus on all only those things, an optimism bias can lead us to amazing results, no matter what life throws at us. And that is the definition of resilience. The second review is interesting. The headline is I didn't know what I didn't know until now from host new normal big life. So this looks like a podcaster. I'm a sponsored adventure sports athlete and have been a competitive athlete most of my teen and a young adult life. However, this podcast taught me there are many factors impacting my health and performance that I didn't know about. Learning about what standard lab work really tells us about our health is a game changer. Thank you so much. So that was probably in response to some recent episodes related to blood work, performance blood work. This is a service we now provide. I'm not going to get into it here, but the long and short of it is if you're looking to understand the interactions and the root causes of things that may be going on with your body, despite having tried all the other things like training, nutrition, lifestyle, it could be another way to peer inside what's happening with your biomarkers, with your hormones, et cetera. Go to witsandweights.com slash blood work for that. But when it comes to these reviews, anyone who leaves a review, we are actually running a say contest, not a contest, a giveaway right now that anyone who leaves a review is entered for a giveaway for three months in physique university in our mastery track. That's a $261 value. And everyone who submits a review is gonna get a surprise bonus. Deadline is October 15. Go into Apple and add your five-star radio review there, if you haven't yet. And I will be monitoring those and then I'll send out the results to the Facebook group and to our email list. All right, let's get into the engineering behind building muscle without bulking, because yes, it is possible. I want to start with the efficiency problem that comes with traditional bulking. As much as I love calorie surpluses and bulking for people who want to get the fastest results, and you will, and the bulk cut cycle, which has been the standard approach in bodybuilding and hypertrophy and strength training for decades, and it still is, again, a tried and true approach, where you spend months in a calorie surplus. In my opinion, six to nine months is ideal, sometimes longer, to maximize your muscle growth. Along for the ride comes some fat, but you are maximizing the muscle growth, meaning you're hitting that ceiling of how much muscle you can, you know, slabs of muscle you can add to your body every month. And to do that, you're making the trade-off that some fat comes along for the ride. And then you do a cut or a fat loss phase to cut it down and rinse and repeat. Now, let me be clear: this bulking is the fastest way to gain muscle. Whether you're a man or a woman, whatever your starting point, doesn't matter. It's the fastest way to gain muscle. If I were to put any caveat on that at all, it would be as if you are significantly overweight. If you're significantly overweight, you definitely want to lose some of that body fat for health reasons, but also because you can actually build a decent amount of muscle while losing weight in that context. So putting that aside, we're talking about people who are kind of in the average range of weight. Even if you have a little extra weight to lose, you're kind of in that average range. If pure speed to muscle growth is your only goal, a calorie surplus is the best way to go. And my usual recommendation for a beginner is around 0.3 or 0.4% of your body weight a week. Potentially more if you're doing it in a very precise, controlled way, or you're a really good responder and you want to take advantage of that. Potentially less if you're not sure or you're worried about gaining too much fat or being not super consistent. But then you need a fat loss phase after that, no matter what, right? You gain the muscle plus the fat, then you diet it off. And the whole cycle takes maybe a year, maybe two years to really get leaner and leaner. And that's fine in the scheme of your whole life. How long really is that when you've been struggling for years and years and years? So if you're into that, which is the way I do it personally, it's very efficient. I mean, it's very, I'll say it's efficient from a long-term perspective. It may not be efficient in the short term, depending on your goal. So I'm happy to help anyone through that who's struggling, who needs help. You can come into physique university. That is what one of the things we teach. We also teach body recomp, which I'm talking about today. It's all all roads to Rome lead to Rome. Okay. So from an engineering perspective, this is really a throughput approach. You are maximizing the input to maximize the output, more fuel, more materials, more resources, and it works. But it's not efficient by all measures. Let me explain the difference. Efficiency is about the output per unit of input. Throughput is the total output, regardless of the input. So a bulking cutting cycle optimizes for throughput, right? You're trying to maximize that muscle and you're also getting more fat along for the ride. What we're talking about today optimizes for efficiency, at least on a shorter term scale. That's the I have to keep saying that because over a several year period, I actually think bulking and cutting, if done right, if done consistently, if you don't stop your training, is the most efficient. But for a lot of people, it's not the most practical, nor is it a state they want to live in for months at a time, let's say. What I mean by that is a lot of people don't want to be fluffy for many months out of the year. That's okay, I get it. And it's okay to not want that and to make a trade-off to get to avoid that. Okay, so muscle protein synthesis, MPS, is the process by which your body builds new muscle tissue. Research shows that MPS rates plateau relatively quickly compared to calorie intake. Gone are the old days of the dreamer bulk where you're eating five or six thousand calories or something like that, because you think there's really no limit to muscle gain as long as you just eat more. Yeah, I'm gonna get fat, but I'm gonna get more and more and more muscle. No, it actually has a plateau, right? So the curve goes up quickly and then it quickly hits a limit, like a fixed limit. So beyond that calorie surplus that gets you to that limit, which is around two to three hundred calories above maintenance for a lot of people. Additional calories then mostly increase your fat mass, not your lean tissue, right? That's why it's uh hard for some people to kind of find that level until you do it once and see what happens, and then you can refine the next time. So think of it like this: your body has a limited capacity to synthesize new muscle at any given time, period. Right? It's not like a construction project where throwing more materials and workers speeds things up. Your body's muscle building machinery can only work so fast. That is the rate limiting step, to use another technical term, the rate limiting step. Okay. So if you're an adult over 30, and that's an important distinction between, because if you're under 30 and you're raging with hormones and you've got a lot more responsiveness and ability to build muscle, you may want to throw my discussion today out the window altogether and just go hog wild on that surplus. Because who cares? You've got all the time in the future ahead of you, and you're super responsive to the muscle. You've got the hormones and everything else. If you're over 30, especially if you're over 40 or in your 50s, pushing body fat higher just to build muscle becomes a little bit less efficient because your nutrient partitioning gets a little bit worse as you age, meaning a higher percentage of the extra calories might go to fat rather than muscle. You just are a little bit less efficient putting on that muscle. Sorry, that's just what happens when we get older. At least you're doing it, right? Versus your peers who are letting their muscle wither away into decrepitude into old age, which is not what we want. But as you get old, your insulin sensitivity decreases, your recovery, you know, gets a little bit harder. Even if you eat more, even if you sleep more, it's still declining slowly over time. Your joint tissues, connective tissues get a little less pliable, et cetera. So what we're really after here is directing the limited resources toward muscle rather than fat storage as laser-targeted as we can. And that is kind of that when you think of like an engineer applied to physique development, where I'm coming from. So, yes, bulking is faster, but I'm gonna talk about aggressive maintenance here. Aggressive maintenance can be more appealing and more efficient, especially if you want to stay relatively lean year round. And I'm sorry to all my lifter buddies who are all about strength PRs, okay? If you're all about strength PRs, I'm not talking to you because you really should be eating. You know that. And you're not here to listen to, but you all at the same time, we all have that vanity bone inside of us. That's like, what if I just tried with Philip's saying for a year or two and see what the difference is? Experiment. You're gonna avoid that psychological roller coaster of gaining and losing weight, and then you're gonna build muscle in a sustainable way that you could potentially just rinse and repeat forever. Now, you can rinse and repeat bulking too, but again, you are stretching up and down a lot more in a lot more extreme way than what we're talking about today. All right. So that again, this is where the system efficiency comes in. So now I want to talk about the next piece, how muscle growth works without this big surplus or without this modest surplus, I should say. To understand this, we have to look at the mechanisms of muscle growth, which happens when the synthesis of protein exceeds the breakdown of protein, which is muscle protein breakdown, MPB. And you actually do not need a calorie surplus for this to occur if three conditions are met. The first condition is that your protein intake is sufficient. Duh. Okay. If you're a new listener, I don't mean to patronize you, you're gonna learn something here. If you've been listening for a while or any other fitness podcast for the last however many years, you know this that protein is super, super important. The research consistently points to 0.7 to one gram per pound of body weight, or 1.6 to 2.2 grams per kilogram of body weight of intake per day. And at these levels, you're basically maximizing those raw materials available for protein synthesis. It's as simple as that, guys. Get enough total protein a day and you're gonna meet this first criteria. Don't get hung over or hung, don't get hung over either. Don't get hung up on the meal timing and the type of protein and all of that. Total protein's probably gonna get you there. Now, if you have a very restrictive diet, it's gonna be, it's gonna create some problems. Restrictive meaning you're vegan or vegetarian, for example. You know, no knock on you guys. I'm just saying it's harder to get the full, complete amino acid profile without being a little more deliberate. Okay, so total protein. The second criteria where you don't necessarily need a surplus to build muscle, is that your training provides the adequate mechanical tension and progressive overload. Those that's really all we're looking for is training close to failure and always progressing, making things slightly more challenging in the gym so that you get stronger because strength builds muscle, and vice versa. And the signals you're giving your body when you do that is the most important signal to adapt. And your body's gonna take the protein you're eating and build more muscle tissue. And then third is your recovery. I'm sorry to hammer this home time and again, but guys, we have to sleep. We have to manage our stress. I've been using my breathe that more. I actually put it as a complication on my Apple Watch, just so it's staring me in the face every day, doing more breath work and things like that. One minute at a time doesn't take a lot. These are the most powerful hidden levers that allow the process to actually occur. Now I know what you're thinking here. You're like, okay, but where does how is it possible to do this while at maintenance? Doesn't it all net out? We're gonna get to that. Let's talk about energy partitioning because this is where things get interesting. Lean individuals tend to partition their nutrients a little more efficiently toward muscle than fat. And train lifters tend to do the same. People with good insulin sensitivity are better at directing nutrients where they need to go. And as an aside, one of the best things for insulin sensitivity is being active throughout the day and walking. Okay. Just had to put that in there. Resistance training itself improves partitioning, even at maintenance calories. So, what does that mean? What does that mean? That means versus someone who is sedentary, simply by having an active, trained lifestyle with plenty of protein and adequate leanness, right? You're not excessively over fat, you will get more out of your nutrients toward muscle versus fat versus a sedentary person. And that's a huge advantage. Even not sitting a lot for your job and getting up and moving will move that needle toward that direction. There's something called body fat set point theory. Okay, and and and there's mixed evidence on this, and the way it's communicated is often specious, or what am I trying to say? I don't want to say this the wrong way, but basically, people are closer to a lean but not extremely lean body composition, let's say 10 to 15% for men, 18 to 25% for women, they often have better recomp. Okay. Now you would think that somebody with extra fat has better recomp. I would say someone in extra fat, I would lean toward trying to lose the fat actually and be in a deficit because that's gonna be the best net benefit. But for most people in kind of an average leanness, they're gonna have better recomp, their hormonal profile is gonna improve, they're gonna have better nutrient utilization, and they're gonna be running kind of super efficiently and they're gonna maximize muscle gain based on what you're already consuming. Again, we're not talking about a surplus. Surplus is always gonna make it more in terms of muscle gain, period. There's also the concept of myonuclear domain theory. When you train, you gain muscle nuclei. And these nuclei persist even during maintenance or slight deficits. So that means muscle memory is a real thing. It really is. And I see this in someone who is detrained, comes back years later, starts to train again, and wow, they just regain and build that muscle so fast. They just gain it back fast without needing to bulk because the cellular machinery is in place. So these are interesting concepts, aren't they? All right. So that brings us to the what here, the aggressive maintenance protocol I've been alluding to and dropping hints at. What the heck is this? And I haven't seen anyone else explain it this way or use this term, so I should probably trademark it. But I have seen plenty of experienced lifters talk about this in other ways. It's eating around maintenance calories, allowing for those daily fluctuations in calories, the daily fluctuations in your metabolism. You're pushing training hard, you're optimizing your protein intake, and you are eating in a way where you're never in a deficit. So to never be in a deficit, it means you have to knowingly be in the tiniest, tiniest, tiniest surplus. Does that make sense? Okay, because you you're keeping yourself fully recovered and optimized, and you're keeping your tank just a little past full, but you're not adding so much where now it goes to fat storage. Okay. You're also not adding enough to maximize muscle, as I keep mentioning, but you are still biasing it toward muscle gain and maybe some fat loss. But today's not about recomp per se, even though this is a good technique for recomp, in my opinion. Studies show that trained individuals can increase lean mass while decreasing fat mass when protein is high and training is well structured. Again, that's recomp. And then there's recent research on energy flux. That's the total energy turnover, basically eating more and moving more to expend more, right? To increase your metabolism, not cardio per se, not like chronic cardio, but just walking, movement, eating, being active, that doing that promotes leanness and muscle gain, even at maintenance. And there's plenty of anecdotal evidence from experience lifters out there, and you see it on Instagram as well, where you don't really have to bulk and you can still slowly gain muscle. I had Holly Baxter on the show. She was talking about the same thing. You're tuning your nutrient delivery, your recovery, and your mechanical stress just the right way to direct your limited resources toward muscle. But you have to be consistent, right? You have to be consistent. So when it comes to like protein, I want you to get your total protein that start there and then start to distribute it across your day, not because it's some magic formula to maximize protein synthesis, although it should bump it up a little bit, a small amount, but mainly because that's going to enforce the consistency and ensure balanced meals, good satiety, habit forming, et cetera. Okay. And I like whole sources of animal-based protein followed by supplementation like whey supplements. Plant-based protein is in there as well. It should kind of naturally fall in there if you're eating a diverse omnivorous diet. If you're vegan or vegetarian, you're gonna have to rely a little more on pea and rice protein and plant-based sources of protein, watching for the fats and carbs and trying to keep it balanced. All right, for resistance training, again, the consistency matters. And that means having the appropriate level of volume for you, which is moderate to high volume because you've got a lot of resources coming in. So 10 to 15, up to 20 sets per muscle group per week, maybe not 20, that might be too much, unless you're in a surplus. So this is where there's some small differences between this and a full-on surplus, but I believe that you're getting still most of the ability to progress because you're not dieting. The fact that you're not dieting gives you a big advantage here. Focusing on compound lifts as the foundation with hypertrophy movements as your developmental and accessory work, using that periodization, you know, using your program long enough to progress, but then avoiding stalls and fatigue by rotating things in the right way, right? I'm not gonna get into the details of programming today. Energy availability, because you're not in a surplus, is also crucial. What I mean by that is carbs. Carbs around your main, around your training is gonna maintain your glycogen and your performance, even though you don't have the higher overall calories. So your carbs should still be pretty darn decent, right? If you're eating, let's say, let's say your maintenance is 2,500 calories, that means you're eating about 2550 or 2600 a day. Because remember, this is called aggressive maintenance. You're being aggressive by pushing it a little bit past all the time. So you're probably gonna have, let's say, I don't know, it depends on your body weight, but let's say you weigh 160. You need, you know, 140 grams of protein, maybe 60 grams, 70 grams of fat, and then 250 grams of carbs or something, maybe 300. It depends, you know, men, women, depends on where your expenditure is, right? But we shouldn't be low carb or keto here, generally. You're gonna get much better results for muscle building when the carbs are there, hitting some minimum threshold. They don't have to be extremely high, just hitting that minimum threshold. And, you know, if you don't have that energy, then your body's gonna draw on other energy systems like your fat and that we call that fasted training. You probably will find a drop-off in performance. But if you're still getting your total carbs for the day, even if you're training fasted, it's still gonna compensate quite a bit for that. All right. So there's a lot of flexibility here. And then your micronutrients are really the hidden levers, your vitamin D, your magnesium, your zinc, you know, all of these things affect your performance, your muscle adaptation. Sleep, of course. Okay, sleep is huge, hydration is huge, all of those things. The goal is to engineer the entire system to gain lean mass. Now, you should be dialing in these things anyway if you were to prepare for fat loss. But what you're doing here is just making this a sustainable way that you do things. This is who I am, this is what I do. I am pushing the maintenance calories just a little bit. And when you do that, what might happen is over a six-month period, you might gain a couple pounds. That means you did it right. And a couple pounds is nothing because hopefully all of those two pounds extra are muscle and some of the pounds that are hidden are muscle as well, meaning you gained more than two pounds of muscle and lost some fat and it did out. So you've gained weight, but you've actually gained more than the gain in muscle. That's really what we're going for here. And that's awesome. And you can tell that by measuring your body, you know, your waist size, how you look, how you feel, how your clothes fit, et cetera. And of course, that you're progressing in the gym. So, you know, speaking of efficiency and gym and programming, I know some of you are thinking, well, what the heck do I do in the gym? If you're kind of new to this and you're busy, like a lot of you are, you're trying to save time in the gym. I definitely want to tell you about our new Ignite training template we just came out in Physique University. It is a four-day upper-lower split. It uses supersets and other time-saving techniques like drop sets, but still incorporates compound lifts and solid principles of progression. Each session takes about 30 minutes max. That's why I love it. To get it, you have to be in physique university. So anybody listening who's there, go get it. It's already out. This is from Coach Carol Hanshu, who's our assistant coach in the group. And if you don't have it, if you're not in physique university, join right now. It's only $27 to join. You can cancel right after you grab it if you want. I don't care, but I hope you'll stick around because you see the value in the courses, the curriculum, the coaching, the live calls, the QA's, all of it. You can then use code FREEPLAN to get the free custom nutrition plan that I will put together for you. So you're gonna get a free custom nutrition plan, and then you're gonna have access to all of our training templates. The free nutrition plan is worth multiples of the price alone. You get all of that. Go to wits and weights.com slash physique to join. Remember to check the box for the plan and then use code FREEPLAN to get it for free. Click the link in the show notes or go to wits and weights.com slash physique for our ignite four-day upper lower time-saving training template. All right, now I want to talk about some of the less discussed aspects of building muscle at maintenance that really make a difference. Glycogen. Glycogen's role goes beyond just energy. You're filling up your glycogen stores, signals your anabolic pathways, anabolic meaning build. You can refill glycogen at maintenance without bulking by using carbs. And I mentioned this already, but you've got to have sufficient carbs and ideally time them around your workouts, which creates an anabolic environment without needing a surplus. The next thing is neurological adaptations. These are significant, especially if you're a newer lifter. Your early strength and size gains are gonna come from neural or neurological efficiency, the motor learning, the motor recruitment, the connection between your brain and your muscles, just to simplify it. And these really don't require surplus, believe it or not. You can get this just by starting to lift weights. Then recomp, when we it's it's worth talking about recomposition a little bit here, because it is more likely when you're in what we call an energy flux state, a high energy flux state. If you know you want to think like you're an athlete, because you are, guys, you you're listening to wits and weights because you want to be an athlete of aging. I actually stole that term from John Sullivan Sully, who wrote Barbell Prescription. Definitely buy that book if you don't have it in your library. Athletes with higher non-exercise activity, right? Higher NEAT, higher daily step count, higher movement, and less sedentary sitting behavior tend to recomp more effectively while at maintenance. Being more active outside the gym helps direct nutrients to muscle, gives you insulin sensitivity. It's kind of counterintuitive because you think, okay, I'm more active, so I require more food. But the system becomes more efficient and the food that you are already getting now goes more toward muscle. If that makes sense. Now, you may need more food as well if your metabolism goes up, and nobody complains about that. Okay. Your sleep architecture, I'm using this term more, sleep architecture, right? The whole system of your sleep quality and quantity. Understanding the slow wave sleep, your deep, your REM sleep, which are correlated with growth hormone release, with muscle protein synthesis. If you have chronically short sleep, less than six hours, you're gonna have a hard time holding muscle, even in when you're in a slightly hypocaloric condition, meaning even when you're in a slight surplus. Sleep quality actually substitutes for a calorie surplus. It is like getting a calorie surplus, guys, for muscle building. Get your sleep. And then there's the protein leverage hypothesis where high protein diets reduce spontaneous energy intake while maintaining an anabolic environment, right? And this explains why some lifters gain muscle without bulking. They're actually leveraging protein to drive both satiety and hypertrophy. And then there are micro surpluses within macro maintenance. Micro meaning day to day, macro meaning overall for the week or for the month or for the year. Your daily calorie intake is gonna hover around maintenance, but really you need to be pushing it a little bit above. In my opinion, about 50 to 100 calories above maintenance on a constant basis. And you may have to switch this up between your training days and your rest days. Maybe. Not everybody has to do that. In fact, most people don't have to do that or overthink it. It's gonna flux with your week because it's not just your training that affects this, it's also your stress and your sleep and your work and your family and your schedule and your vacations and so blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. All right. Over the week, it's gonna net out to a few hundred calories over maintenance for the whole week. But it's gonna kind of feel like a little bit of a bulk, which is great. It's gonna feel fueled up. Okay. It's a really great approach, in my opinion. And again, all you're gonna get for it on a negative, and this is not even a negative, is maybe a couple pounds of weight gain over many, many, many months, but you're gonna net muscle gain, which is the goal. So the kind of the last segment here is who benefits the most from skipping the bulk, what we're talking about today. I would say if you are overweight or have a much higher body fat, you definitely don't need to bulk. In fact, this is the one scenario where I'd say you probably still want a slight deficit because you have so much stored energy and you need to drop that body fat. That's so I'll put that there. If you were detrained and you're coming back to lifting, you have all that muscle memory, so to speak, and you're gonna respond really fast, it's a great way to get started and see what you get for your results without needing to go in a surplus. If you're a new lifter and you get these neurological and early hypertrophy gains, right? Newbie gains, again, they require less of a surplus. You're trying to respond to training without needing a ton of extra food. Just make sure you're not dieting. Just make sure you're not dieting. If you are, and then this is the a big category for a lot of you. If you're a lifter who wants to just look good, you want a lean look, you care about aesthetics throughout the year, you want to avoid the cycle of getting fluffy and cutting, you want to stay lean year-round, this is a great way to go. Just let's face it, it's okay. It's okay to have a vanity goal. This is the way to go. And if you're, you know, you're midlife, you're busy, you're professional, you know, raising a family, this aligns perfectly with many of your goals. You want efficiency, you want sustainability, sustainability, long term health. You won't you don't want to deal with drastic swings, which admittedly come with the need for more structure and control to do them the right way. Or I'm gonna raise my hand, having a coach in your corner, or A community like Physique University in your corner, or if you want a free community, get started, join our Facebook group, right? You just don't have that time or desire for these cycles, it's a good way to go. Now, there are some pitfalls, right? The gains are gonna be slower compared to bulking. We talked about that. Also, you do have to still be precise. You have to precisely track how much protein you're eating, your recovery, your training. Too aggressive of a deficit is gonna push you into a surplus. So you've got to just kind of watch out what's happening. In most people's experience, I find it works out no matter what because you're pushing your expenditure up and it's you kind of almost struggle to keep up with it, but not as much as in a surplus. And then there's the psychological trap. If you expect bulking level gains at maintenance, you are gonna be disappointed. You're gonna be disappointed, you're gonna have to bulk in that case. Don't have unrealistic expectations. Okay, but this can be a great approach. So the reason aggressive maintenance works isn't just about the calories or the protein or the training, it's operating at the design limits of your body without exceeding them, at least from a muscle versus fat perspective, right? Again, if we just want raw muscle gain, you're gonna gain more fat as well, and you go after it with a surplus. But this to what we talked about today is its own form of precision that you might find appealing. It is also quite sustainable. It's something you could just keep doing. Now, maybe if you drift over time and gain a few pounds over, say two or three years, you eventually do a fat loss phase, maybe. Or you might find, heck, I'm just leaner and leaner at higher body fat, at higher body weight, and I'm super happy now. I look strong, I'm jacked, I'm lean, I never had to diet. It's possible. So traditional bulking is the fastest way to gain muscle, requires a fat loss phase afterward, and that's a throughput approach. Aggressive maintenance is more of an efficiency approach. So if you want to stay lean year-round while building muscle moderately over time, this is the way. So before we wrap up, remember we do have a review giveaway. If you love the show today, if you learned something, leave a review on Apple Podcasts and tell me what you thought of today's episode. Do it by October 15, and one winner will be selected for three months in the mastery track of Physique University, and everybody who submits a review will get a surprise bonus. Just search for Wits and Weights in your app if you're not already in Apple right now. Scroll down, tap write a review, make it happen. I appreciate it. I'm grateful. Until next time, keep using your wits, lifting those weights, and remember, building muscle does not require getting fat. It requires precision, consistency, and a systems based approach.