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Philip Pape 6/28/24 Philip Pape 6/28/24

The 7 Most Powerful Mindset Techniques to Lose Fat and Build Muscle with Adam Poehlmann | Ep 185

Phi ipwelcomes Adam Poehlmann, host of The Poehlmann Fitness Show and a dedicated health, fitness, and nutrition coach at Poehlmann Fitness, to discuss how your inner voice can unlock physical achievements. This episode tackles the often-overlooked aspect of fitness: your mindset. Adam dives deep into the internal locus of control concept, empowering you to take ownership of your health journey. He also gets personal, sharing his fitness struggles and triumphs, from overcoming the temptation of alcohol to setting a positive example.

Are you feeling stuck in a fitness rut? Are you confused by conflicting fitness advice? Struggling to stay motivated when everyone on social media seems to have a perfect body?

Today, Philip (@witsandweights) welcomes Adam Poehlmann, host of The Poehlmann Fitness Show and a dedicated health, fitness, and nutrition coach at Poehlmann Fitness, to discuss how your inner voice can unlock physical achievements. This episode tackles the often-overlooked aspect of fitness: your mindset. Adam dives deep into the internal locus of control concept, empowering you to take ownership of your health journey. He also gets personal, sharing his fitness struggles and triumphs, from overcoming the temptation of alcohol to setting a positive example.

Philip and Adam explore the power of a growth mindset, where setbacks become growth opportunities. They also talk about navigating social media effectively, avoiding comparison traps, and harnessing its potential for inspiration and learning. Packed with actionable tips and real-life experiences, this episode equips you with the mental tools to finally conquer your fitness goals.

Today, you’ll learn all about:

2:21 What's the first mental shift Adam recommends
9:16 (1) Developing an inner locus of control
15:31 (2) Mental contrasting visualization
18:04 (3) Implementation intentions ("if-then" planning)
20:48 Choosing fitness over alcohol
23:25 (4) Community and accountability
26:32 When Adam hit a wall in his fitness journey
33:30 (5) Self-awareness and reframing negative thoughts
41:35 Mindset on nutrition and exercise progression
43:45 (6) Building resilience and self-compassion
53:52 (7) Managing information "diet" and social media influences
59:22 Navigating social media and fitness trends
1:06:11 Where to find Adam
1:06:55 Outro

Episode resources:

Adam’s IG: @adampoehlmann
Podcast: spoti.fi/3W2kYBO
Threads: @adampoehlmann
FB Group: facebook.com/groups/thebodytransformationtribe

Episode summary:

Achieving Fitness Mastery: Harnessing Mindset and Mental Power

We are joined by Adam Poehlmann from the Poehlmann Fitness Show to explore the profound impact of mindset on fitness. Adam, a dedicated health, fitness, and nutrition coach, delves into the intricacies of how our mental attitudes shape our physical outcomes. By embracing a growth mindset and maintaining an internal locus of control, we can overcome the mental barriers that often hinder our fitness journeys. This episode is packed with practical strategies and insights to help you transform your mental roadblocks into productive behaviors for true transformation.

The Role of Mindset in Fitness

The episode begins with a focus on the critical role of mindset in achieving physical self-mastery. Adam emphasizes the importance of accepting personal responsibility for one's health and actions amidst the contradictory noise in the fitness industry. He shares strategies for transforming mental roadblocks into productive behaviors, emphasizing that true transformation begins with mastering the mind. By embracing a growth mindset and maintaining an internal locus of control, individuals can overcome mental barriers and achieve their fitness goals.

Practical Tips for Strengthening Self-Mastery

Adam discusses the concepts of radical acceptance, personal responsibility, and self-efficacy, as popularized by Carol Dweck's influential book "Mindset." He emphasizes the importance of self-awareness and suggests seeking feedback from trusted individuals, such as a spouse or close friends, to identify areas where we might harbor a fixed mindset. Adam also touches on the impact of social media and credential fallacies on our self-perception, encouraging listeners to embrace vulnerability and continuously seek personal growth by being obsessed with learning and improvement.

Anticipating and Overcoming Roadblocks

The episode explores the concept of mental contrasting and its importance in achieving fitness goals. Adam explains how anticipating roadblocks and creating specific implementation intentions can help individuals navigate obstacles. By deciding in advance how to handle challenges, such as not wanting to go to the gym or dealing with tempting foods at a restaurant, individuals can better navigate obstacles and set themselves up for success.

Navigating Fitness Journey Challenges

Adam shares his personal journey and evolving motivations behind maintaining a healthy lifestyle, from abstaining from alcohol to setting positive examples in personal development. He discusses the importance of breaking from societal norms, such as avoiding alcohol, and how these decisions can inspire others and lead to broader lifestyle changes. Additionally, Adam emphasizes the importance of recording and tracking workout routines, harnessing mental power to stay motivated, and using social media intentionally for personal growth.

Harnessing Mental Power for Motivation

The episode delves into the mental strategies and tools used to stay motivated and consistent with fitness routines, even when enthusiasm wanes. Adam explores techniques like mental contrasting, visualizing workouts, and planning exercises to maintain motivation and avoid feelings of disappointment. He also touches on the challenges and personal growth experienced in maintaining a podcast, the importance of pouring energy into what brings joy, and overcoming self-doubt and limiting beliefs.

Overcoming Limiting Beliefs in Nutrition and Exercise

Adam discusses the psychological and practical strategies for overcoming limiting beliefs, particularly in the context of nutrition and exercise. He explains how shifting from a scarcity mindset to an abundance mindset can significantly impact our relationship with food. By focusing on adding nutrient-dense, low-calorie foods rather than eliminating "bad" foods, individuals can naturally improve their diet without feeling deprived. The importance of understanding the impact of food volume and fiber intake on satiety and overall health is emphasized, with references to modern hunter-gatherer tribes.

Understanding and Embracing Training to Failure

The episode explores the concept of strength-based training, emphasizing the benefits of working in lower rep ranges to build true strength and understand muscular failure. Adam discusses how reducing reps can enhance central nervous system performance and the importance of distinguishing between metabolic fatigue and actual muscular failure. Techniques like filming oneself to objectively assess form and pushing to true failure, even beyond perceived limits, are highlighted as valuable tools.

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Transcript

Adam Poehlmann 00:00

Just trying and putting yourself out there exposing yourself getting the practice and getting the reps and that will also make you more confident with your ability to challenge yourself and push yourself and so though it won't become physically easier, it will become mentally easier and there won't be an obstacle or a hurdle to overcome next time you need to push yourself.

Philip Pape 00:18

Adam Poehlmann 01:58

Thanks for having me. Thanks for let me really appreciate it. That was a solid intro. not your first rodeo. I

Philip Pape 02:03

don't know if you saw the video. I said. There you go. Yeah, no, I was I was joking. Because on our ag chat, just for the listener, I have this silly video I compiled, like a year ago with a bunch of people praising the intros, you know, and I'm like, I send this to people, you know, it's one of those kind of like vanity things, but sure, it's pretty funny. So alright, so you know, you talk a lot about the mindset and about how the key to transforming your body lies in mastering your mind. And it's something we give a lot of, I'll say lip service to, and there's like this woo factor to it for a lot of people. But in reality, a lot of people are absorbing tons of information. And a lot of it maybe is good information, and they're just not applying it, they're not implementing it for some reason. So for people who are stuck, they're frustrated, what's the very first mental shift that you'd encourage them to make? Right now listening to the show?

Adam Poehlmann 02:52

Yeah, that's a good question. I think in general, one of the first mental shifts I would encourage people to make is accepting that their health is solely their responsibility. And they are the only ones that are in control of their actions and behaviors. Yes, we can't control outcomes in life. But we can control you know, how we respond, how we behave, what we act on, so on and so forth. So I would say, first and foremost, accept responsibility. And as you alluded to earlier, maintain an internal locus of control, essentially, the idea that I'm in control of what I do or don't do, I happen to my environment, or I respond to my environment versus life happening to me. So that's essentially the first thing that I would say, once you accept that, then it is far easier to move into perhaps the practical, and the tactical of what it looks like to actually apply that belief. But if you go straight into it, without the belief, or the mindset, or the acceptance of that responsibility, it's far easier to go astray, not do what you want to do not do what you say you want to do, so on and so forth. So the radical acceptance, in my opinion, is the first step. Okay.

Philip Pape 04:00

Love that. So radical acceptance, personal responsibility, self efficacy, even which I get from that. So how does somebody become aware of that in the first place, in concrete way, and I can think of like statements that we make to ourselves, but just a really simple thing, where somebody's like, oh, that's maybe the reason why I'm not going to the gym, or, you know, is it a statement that they're making? Is it something people can apply right now and say, I'm doing that?

Adam Poehlmann 04:22

Yeah, absolutely. So what I think of is, and by no means in my mindset expert, or have a wealth of knowledge on this, but it's just something I've becoming more obsessed with lately. And I think of the book Mindset by Carol Dweck, and she really kind of popularized the fixed mindset versus growth mindset piece. And in that book, she goes through some different things that you can use to identify but essentially, we're not always fixed mindset. We're not always growth mindset. There are certain areas of our lives where we might have a fixed mindset versus a growth mindset. So obviously, recognizing what you say or think about who you What you can do is one of the best things. However, sometimes that self awareness isn't there, or it's just become such a habit that we don't quite recognize it right. And so one of the things that I've found to be the most beneficial for me is going to my wife and asking her like, hey, where do you notice me having maybe a fixed mindset or having a negative attitude or some cynicism towards something? And she will say, you know, she'll bring certain things up, or I noticed this, or I noticed that and most of the time, I'm like, yeah, yeah, for sure. I don't disagree at all. I recognize that. And then sometimes she'll bring one up, and it causes me to pause and think, oh, shoot, you're right. I hadn't realized that, to this point. I was telling myself that I couldn't do something or that something was too hard, or whatever. And so having that perspective, from somebody else, who's not always, in your own mind, is extremely helpful in first understanding where you might have that fixed mindset, and how you can improve that.

Philip Pape 05:55

That must be really good for your relationship as well, because that's like that's being vulnerable right there. It's something that as soon as you said it, I realized, oh, even I can do that more often with my wife, I probably ask friends and clients everything more, to give me feedback than my own loved ones who really know me. 100%. And

Adam Poehlmann 06:11

the thing is to it's like, it really depends on who you go to, and what the relationship is like that you have, like, I have friends in my life where I won't go to them for those things, because it's that type of friendship where we're vulnerable in some sense, but I know that they're not going to just have a come to Jesus moment with me. They're more so looking out for just my feelings, which has its place. But then there are other friends and my wife as well. People in my life where it's like, I know that they're going to tell me the truth and love, even if it's something that doesn't sound good, or I don't want to hear so yeah. In those scenarios, it's very beneficial to go to those people, you're like, you know, what, they might not say the nicest thing or say it in the way that I want to hear it, but they are going to tell me the truth. And the truth is what I need. Yeah.

Philip Pape 06:51

And that's the art of asking for feedback. I mean, you know, if you don't ask for it, and you just hope to get it even when someone does give you feedback and might not be what type of feedback you're looking for, like one or two. Yep. Just something you said. You said earlier, kind of jokingly, I'm not an expert. I'm obsessed. I don't know if you just threw that out there if you've said that before. But that's really a profound statement. I want to glom on to that a little bit. Because I feel like people who are obsessed with things in this positive way, they are the experts. Like, I feel like there are too many proclaimed experts and people who are well book read or something like, even me on this podcast, I had imposter syndrome for the longest time, but it's like, I'm obsessed with it. I love it. I want to learn as much as possible. Somebody asked me a question. I don't know the answer, I'm gonna go figure it out. And that does make you an expert. I just want to say that just in case you had any doubts about that you are an expert, but it's because you're obsessed? No, see, that's

Adam Poehlmann 07:40

actually that's actually a perfect example of what we were just talking about. That's a great reminder. Because as you were just reflecting on that, I was thinking to myself, Why did I feel the need to say that, and I think if I'm being 100% honest with you, there are in the realm of being vulnerable. I think there are some potential insecurities or things on my mind about a lack of formal education, especially nowadays, you know, we like to praise people who have master's degrees and PhDs, as if they are the people who know everything, all the time, especially, I mean, social media reeks of them. And buttons. Yes, and we have a lot of, you know, credential fallacy where essentially, if they have credentials, it means they know everything. And they always know what's best, which absolutely, they have knowledge and expertise that sometimes goes beyond what I know. But that doesn't mean they know it all anyway. So I feel a lot of that pressure from social media. And maybe right there as an example of an area of my life where I have maybe a little bit more of a fixed mindset. Don't consider myself an expert on something, but rather, a lay person who is just obsessed. So that was a quality example of what we were just talking about. Yeah, it was

Philip Pape 08:44

totally planned out. This is 100% scripted to get to that moment. Exactly. No, it's pretty cool. Like, I love doing podcasts just in talking to people like this. Because yeah, we do have those different perspectives. And we're opening up and anybody again, and people are listening to this, like that is the point of this conversation today is finding out how you can really dig deeper into that. And hopefully, we've inspired you that, like us expert coaches here, you know, we have things that we need to unravel about ourselves and a third party that may see you better than yourself in one little area or another even a stranger, right? Yes, yes, absolutely. All right. So go into the inner locus of control, then we talked about responsibility and self efficacy, we want to kind of shift that eventually into practicality, right? practical actions. And I guess it's an that's a matter of how do we strengthen that locus of control, right? Because number one is acknowledging and having awareness, but then number two is okay, how do we really make the most of that? What do we want to jump from there, Adam?

Adam Poehlmann 09:38

Yeah, I mean, we can go anywhere, but just straight diving into practical tips. One thing I will say before, I think of a few that have really helped me is I think this is a part of, I don't want to say self mastery, because we're never going to master ourselves. We can't be perfect, but I think this is an element of self growth and self improvement with the internal locus of control, it's really, it's ultimately figuring out again, where those areas you do have that and what areas you don't. So in terms of practical tips, one thing that really, really helps me is understanding that I have done something just as difficult if not more difficult before. So that's a great way to give yourself that self belief and confidence that you can go ahead and do something. Or at the very worst, you can give a crazy amount of effort. Perfect example, is, I did my first Murph on Memorial Day, there are so many years where one of my friends is just texting, you know, all the guys in the group chat. Who's doing their Murph who's doing their Murph. And I hate to say it, but I was that guy. It's like, it doesn't align with the program. I'm running right now. So I didn't interfere with my recovery. Oh, gosh, yeah, seriously. And this year, I just had like an instant conviction where it's like, I am avoiding this, because it brings me outside of my comfort zone. Even though I would say when I train, I train very hard, and I'm uncomfortable, I have a level of discomfort. This is different. It's something I'm not used to. I haven't built that confidence there. And so anyway, I decided to do this Murph, and I'm going at it and I'm laughing at myself, because my gym only has an eight pound vest. I think you're supposed to do it with maybe like a 10 to 25 pound vest. It's my understanding. I didn't look into it until before this year, or before this year. And so I'm dying. I've got this eight pound vest on and I am dying. And I'm like, Okay, do I laugh at myself right now? Or do I like motivate myself? What do I do here? Because I'm three quarters of the way through, and I'm dwindling quick. So I catch myself thinking in that moment, I went back to my college baseball days where we had the most disgusting amount of conditioning I've ever seen any sports team have in my entire life, and but it was just for the pitchers. In that moment, I really wished I was a different position. And we were doing the craziest things. And I thought, You know what? Yes, it's been a few years. Yes, it's been some time since I push myself in that way. But I have the mental capability to get myself into that mode and keep going, doesn't mean it's gonna be easy. That doesn't mean it's going to go faster. But I have the confidence that I don't need to quit, and that I can finish this, because I've done something like that before. So that's one thing that I find very helpful when it comes to maintaining an internal locus of control. And then I would also say another practical one that comes to mind is visualization. Going back to college when I was playing baseball, there are a lot of stories coming up here. But I don't know if you've ever heard of it, or listeners have ever heard of it. But it's this psychological phenomenon, called the yips basically. And we use it a lot in golf. You see it a lot in catchers in baseball. Sometimes you see it in basketball with free throws. But it's basically any you'll see it a lot in sports, or endeavors or aspects of sports

Philip Pape 12:48

was that mentioned in one of the gymnast, the US gymnasts? What's her name? Was that the same phenomenon? She had? Was that something else? Yes.

Adam Poehlmann 12:53

I think in the gymnastics world, they call it the spinneys or something like

Philip Pape 12:57

that. It was a different term. But yeah, I guess, yeah, something that you have

Adam Poehlmann 13:01

mastered so well. But for some reason or another, you start to doubt yourself, and you start to psych yourself out. And something that is seemingly, so easy becomes so difficult. So for a catcher throwing the ball back to a pitcher, he'll throw it 20 feet over his head, or 10 feet left or straight into the ground, because he's so you know, in his head. And for me, that happened when I was in college, playing catch from anywhere from 10 to 90 feet was extremely challenging, not physically, but mentally. But once I got to a certain distance, when we were warming up and playing catch, it wasn't a problem. Because, you know, once we're at 120 feet, plus, I had to just rip it, you know, and when you're just letting it rip, you don't have to think about it. So long story short, I ended up working with the sports psychologist, and we go through a lot of visualization techniques. And that was a season in my life where I realized how profound visualization was. And I was able to apply that into my workouts later on when baseball was over. And I got into fitness. And I realized the power that it had an improvement in my performance. Even just thinking about the workout that I had. Going into the gym, I kind of walked myself mentally through like, Alright, what's that first exercise going to feel like? How am I going to think about performing the movement? How am I going to think about, you know, constructing my muscles? Or what am I thinking about during my rest periods, just having a quick visual walkthrough drastically improved, not just the quality of the workout in my performance, but also my enjoyment with it as well. And I guess that kind of brings us into another practical tip before I stop rambling here is having I think having a plan helps so much, especially working out because without a plan, it's really hard to visualize what you're going to do and how you're going to do it and how you're going to feel and and what's going to happen if roadblocks and obstacles come. But if you have a plan, you can walk yourself through that process as opposed to simply winging it. So those are a few practical tips that I would say can be very profound. And

Philip Pape 14:50

I think they're all interconnected in a profound way, in fact, so I'm a huge fan of science fiction. I'm reading a story now where they, they talked about the evolution of humans and one of the things that Eat is distinct and also allowed us to have a big brain was our ability to match the future, what you're talking about is like this continuum of, here's what we've done in the past, we've overcome it. Here's what I'm thinking about my performance coming up, and I have a plan to execute. It's all related to that idea of like, let's put ourselves in that identity of, and that time continuum, right, that just gets better and better over time. And I know you said like, we'll never get there with mastery. And I know what you mean is like, we strive for those things. We'll never get there. And that's maybe empowering because the rest of our lives, we can get better and better and better until the day we croak. You had a recent Instagram post, actually, to segue from visualization. You talked about mental contrasting as a technique. And I don't know if you want to share a little bit about that, where it's not just visualization, I think, but there's another piece of that that might even enhance the visualization you want to chat about. I'll have to try to remember exactly what the I have it all written out on my notes if you need if you need a reminder. Give me a little reminder. Give me a little insight. Okay. Yeah, you said visualization is powerful. But what it often lacks is challenges to overcome roadblocks. Yes, there you go. Yeah, no, thank you. Good, cool.

Adam Poehlmann 16:00

So what we often tend to do is, we idealize things, right, we idealize our lives, we put our dreams and aspirations and plans up on this pedestal, especially when it comes to fat loss. You know, whenever we're pursuing any fitness goal, not even fat loss, but losing body fat, building muscle building strength, changing your nutrition, we tend to project this unrealistic expectation of what the process will be like. So we only visualize ourselves going through this seamless, easy, perfect process, all the while knowing full well, that that's not how life works. So one thing that can help is as we're going through this visualization, is thinking through, okay, how am I going to respond, act and behave? If a roadblock comes, if a speed bump comes if a major obstacle or life event comes, then what will I do? And I think from there, that really provides a great segue into implementation intentions. And this is I would say, this is the in between of the you know, if you were to have the mindset or mental visualization piece on one end of the spectrum, and then you have the actual action. On the other end, I would say the implementation intention is kind of in the middle. So a very simple, you know, example that we could use there is, it's basically if then, so if something happens, then I will blank. But specifically with the mental contrasting, what we could say is, if I'm on the way home from work, and I don't want to go to the gym, then I will blank, then I will call my friends, so they can hold me accountable, then I will drive to the parking lot in front of the gym and sit there, then I will at the very least walk into the gym doors that I will at the very least, do my first exercise. And if I want to leave that for that, then I leave something like that. That way we have a plan beforehand, for when those obstacles and those challenges come up, the worst things that we can do is just dream about it and then not do anything, and not have a backup plan. Because we don't do well with a lot of decision making, we can develop a lot of decision fatigue. So one of the best things that we can do in our health and fitness is eliminate the need for decisions. You even seen little quirky traits like this in entrepreneurs, CEOs, you know, some of them just wear the same clothes. So it's like, hey, that's one less decision I have to make. And you might not want to be that drastic, but the principle still applies. So you know, if I don't have to make a decision and you know, work on my brain of like, am I going to go to the gym? Am I not? Am I going to do this? Am I not? What am I going to have for lunch, nothing is made, you are going to set yourself up for success. Because you don't have to think about it. You just have a plan, and even a plan to overcome those mental roadblocks. So that's kind of speaking into the mental contrasting little bit, you're just taking the visualization and the dreaming and applying a plan for when things just don't go your way. Yeah,

Philip Pape 18:49

and you're imagining the roadblocks rather than, like it's taking it one step further than just saying, Well, I know I'm going to a restaurant on Saturday. Therefore that's going to be a roadblock. It's more of like creating out of thin air, the roadblocks that all can occur and then coming up with forks from those knowing they're going to happen like That's life. Life is full of those. Yeah,

Adam Poehlmann 19:11

I go to the restaurant. And it's not just that I'm going to the restaurant, but it's I'm going to the Mexican restaurant and they have the saltiest chips and of the best things in the world. And I tend to have two baskets just on my own. They're so good. They're so good, man. They're so good. And my friend Joey is always he's gonna be there. And he's always the one that's pressuring me to have a beer when I just don't want to have one. And then they have today's leches cake, which was one of my favorites. So you kind of have to walk yourself through that beforehand. And someone even listening right now might be thinking, Man, that sounds like a lot of thought. It's like, sure, as I'm, you know, rambling through it in the moment, it does sound like a lot, but imagine how hard it is to make those decisions. When you're in the moment and you have the stimulation of the conversation. It's last minute so you feel extra pressure. You don't have a plan. It'll be 10 times harder than then it will here for 10 to 30 seconds figuring out what you want to do before that event comes? Yeah,

Philip Pape 20:02

you know, something came came to mind when you said that friend of mine, he has a podcast, he just renamed it. What is the mental muscle up podcast? And he he quoted someone else. And I don't remember who he quoted that where he said, you know, the cost of thinking about something and doing something are usually the same. And it was being used in the positive sense of like, stop thinking and go do but you could flip it around here with what you're saying in that the cost of doing something in the moment, you could just displace that with the cost of thinking about it ahead of time. Meaning it's not like you said, It's no worse for you and it's actually gonna be a lot better because it takes out that fatigue at the worst time. Especially if you got a couple dosa keys and you write 100.

Adam Poehlmann 20:42

In the restaurant, yeah. Once you're a little bit of your, your inhibition is there, you're you're screwed.

Philip Pape 20:48

Yeah, it's funny. You mentioned that because too, because alcohol has been coming up a lot lately. I don't know. You know how certain things when you just notice them, you just all of a sudden noticed that a lot in the fitness space in the industry, on threads everywhere. I'm seeing alcohol all the time. Are you seeing that right now like that? For some reason? Yeah, I

Adam Poehlmann 21:02

think I'm seeing it in fitness. And outside of it. I feel like there is a you know, I don't keep up with like, market trends or anything like that. It's just more so I've noticed dry bars everywhere. Yeah. And movement. Yeah, yeah, I've noticed so many people, maybe not abstaining, but just really understanding that Hmm, this habit of mine has way more cons that drastically affect my life than it does pros. And I'm not too surprised to be honest with you, Phillip, because this is something that I've seen in coaching for 10 years, you know, I will always have a conversation with my clients about like, hey, what kind of food choices are we making? For sure? And do they align with our goals? And if they don't, are we you know, is it sensible? Are we going to enjoy it? Is it worth it? Whatever, yadda yadda. But not once in 10 years have I had a conversation that includes explicitly eliminating or forbidding something, even alcohol. And what I found is that more and more people as they pursue their health, just realize that they don't want it anymore, or at least don't want it that frequently or don't want the second one or want to save it for moments where it's actually worth it, instead of just making it a regular thing, you know, they don't feel the quote unquote, need to wind down with those two extra hefty glasses of wine every single night. Whatever it is, you know, and so I'm not surprised in the slightest, you know, it's, it reminds me of you mentioned the stoicism earlier. And I'm a Christian. So it reminds me of what we kind of see in the Christian faith in the scriptures that, you know, a lot of people say, Okay, once you accept Jesus, how does that work? Like you just accept Jesus, and then you're good to go. And like you can just keep being in a hole and you're set. Like, it's like, no, what happens is like, once you accept Jesus, the Holy Spirit, like starts doing a work inside of you. And you no longer want to do the things that you used to do treat people the way that you used to treat them. And a very similar thing happens with fitness, I would argue, you know, it's not so much about learning to hate something else. But the more you love working out, the more you fall in love with how you feel, the more you enjoy the benefits it gives you when you play with your kids and how you feel in the morning, when you wake up after you had a great meal the night before the last you want to have that extra drink or go to happy hour that third time that week. And I feel like for the people who are getting into fitness in this day and age, that's one of the things that they're noticing the most.

Philip Pape 23:15

Yeah, and it's in its own space like alcohol. You can't just lump it in with all food, right? Because it's not this source of nourishment or fuel or in any sense, right? Like it just has negatives. No. So to try to rationalize it by lumping it in there. It's more like a behavior. It's more like a separate little thing that you're doing it either almost like taking a behavior you have in your life not related to fitness that is just not serving you in any way totally rationalizing that I'm doing it because it's a good social experience. You know? Yeah, we tend to do that without I

Adam Poehlmann 23:44

think, I think it's taken so long to because it's so normalized. You know, having going to happy hour having a drink after every outing, or every outing is so normal. I even think of people still my age 30 You know, having weekend, you know, benders, and they're like, it's a normal thing for them. And I'm like, What are you doing with your life? But honestly, it's just normal, you know, so

Philip Pape 24:05

they brag about it. And it's like, oh, yeah, totally. Yeah, totally.

Adam Poehlmann 24:09

But I've noticed even more so that people are now like saying, hey, my family is you know, they look at me weird if I don't want to drink or my friends look at me weird. But then I've also noticed that the more they pursue that the less they noticed that like, oh, yeah, it's a normal thing. Now actually, it inspired so and so to stop having alcohol and people are almost kind of like being enlightened. You know, we're like, yeah, some wires are coming off. And they're like, Huh, I guess you're right. That never really served me that much. I enjoyed the taste of it here and there, no doubt, but like, Why do I spend $15 on a drink every time I go out to eat even though I know I'm not going to sleep well, and then I wake up oh, I guess it is normal for me just to have a water or a Diet Coke and call it good. Yeah. So then when people do it,

Philip Pape 24:48

yeah, yeah, no fair point. And then all the other things, you know, why am I getting more belly fat and why? You know, can't I not? Can I not sleep and on and on and on. Right? It goes with that. So and I guess when you talk about are being stigmatized or was stigmatized. But now you can be an inspiration for people. I mean, I think that principle is the same with a lot of what we do. That's good for us. I'll say, I always use the word good and bad. But you know what I mean, it's, it serves us that we're weird. We're outliers. Like, even what we do here, still is the percentage of people like, I don't know if you'd agree with that. But like, even going after mastery, or personal growth just seems to be the smallest minorities, which almost encourages me that I want to be doing that it must be the right thing, and hopefully inspire more people to do that.

Adam Poehlmann 25:32

Yeah, no, 100%, there's definitely a ripple effect that people notice there. And I think, not to go too far into the other, you know, I guess, piece of mindset, and people just feeling stuck in their lives. But I think so many people feel that way. Because they don't have an example of what it looks like to not be stuck, you know, not having alcohol might be a small version of that. But maybe there's a broader example of leaving their job and starting a career or being more present with their family, or I think of men in general men, not growing up with an example of what it looks like to be vulnerable, you know, and so we've got a newer couple in our city group at church, and like, he's completely foreign to that, in the last year that he's been with us, you know, he like has been so blessed by seeing other guys just be real about where they're at. And so whoever's listening, whatever that small thing is that right now, or right now might not be the normal, it's probably spinning some wheels for somebody in their head and making them consider living their life differently for the better. So keep doing it. Yeah,

Philip Pape 26:31

yeah. Good point. So speaking of that, hitting a wall, then, just to learn a little bit more about you, can you tell us about a time where, you know, you hit a wall in your fitness journey, in particular, and had to mentally navigate that? Maybe it's recent, maybe it's a long time ago, but something where you maybe drew some isn't one of these deeper, wise lessons that you're sharing with us today?

Adam Poehlmann 26:49

Yeah, I mean, I, I would say honestly, I'm in one right now. You know, I, if I would say I'm in one, if you compare where I'm at now to previous years, you know, when I first got into fitness, I was in the middle of like, I not to be too dramatic, but like an identity crisis type of thing. Like, I wanted to be a professional baseball player my whole life. I spent every waking thought and breath and everything I possibly could on baseball. And then once that was over, I was like, What am I doing here? Like, what's my existence. And so my dad used to be a bodybuilder. And that's how I kind of got into fitness, he brought me to the gym, to distract me, essentially, and keep me from being a total bummer. And I fell in love with that, you know, because it's like, oh, I'm putting this work in, and I see change. And this is really cool. And then I was in college at the time, as well. And so long story short, I saw another trainer and thought, you know, that seems like a pretty cool job. And I can be flexible with hours with college. And I can, you know, make my way through that. And so I did that. And at that time, you know, you have your typical young guy stuff. I'm not dating anybody, I want to get attention, I want to be married at some point, where do I start trying to be hot, right? What's going to help muscles, so you get into that, and then that drives you and drives you and drives you, you start getting bigger, so you get driven even more, and then eventually, you kind of grew up a little bit. And it's not that to be grown up or mature, you don't care about those muscles anymore, but just your priorities start to change over time. And for me right now, like, I'm in more of a wall or a rut, in the sense that I'm just getting my workout in to say that I did it. And to say that or to keep myself from getting fat, essentially, I'm just doing the bare minimum, you know. So what I've been using is anything from extreme cheese, like really cheesy stuff, to stuff that's a little bit more profound. And you know, I don't know right now, if I'm on a trajectory to get to a spot where I feel driven all the time to go to the gym and feel all about it. And so I'm not sure if that exists all the time. But one thing that I do that is It's so cheesy film, but there's this playlist on my gosh, I'm like embarrassed to say it. But there's this playlist on Spotify called Machiavellian motivation. And it basically takes like audio from motivational speakers, Tony Robbins, David Goggins, all that stuff, and puts dramatic, like, score music with it. And if you were to play it in front of your friends at a car, you'd be like, I'm embarrassed for myself. But when you're in the gym, you're gonna move mountains, it's like the best thing in the world. So there's something little like that helps me kind of stir up that mental capability of like, okay, I can do this, this is good for me, I want to do this. And then there's other stuff like, visualizing or maybe even some mental contrasting of like, how am I going to feel if I don't pursue this? How am I going to feel if I give up on the gym? How am I going to feel if I, you know, just call it good with two workouts this week, even though I plan to do four, I'm not going to be proud of myself, I'm not going to feel good. I'm going to feel better if I do it. And that doesn't make me gung ho motivated, want to do it, but it definitely gets me to the gym and I get it done. So those are some things that I've been doing right now. And I you know, do that same thing I talked about earlier. I'll think about what I'm going to do in the gym. What exercise I'm going to start with, kind of run myself through how's my body feeling in this current moment? How will I want to warm up because of that? What are some things I need to watch out for and then I walked my son through that workout, and then I'm better able to go in there and feel as if I have done this before. And that helps so much. So those aren't anything like, they're not profound, but that's what I'm doing right now. I

Philip Pape 30:12

mean, some people listening and probably maybe not doing anything, right, and they're sitting on their couch or whatever. And I mean, hopefully everybody listen to this podcast, they're totally jacked, they got it all down, you know, 85% Stick. But I mean, the reality is, everybody, including people who are proclaimed or not proclaimed experts, and even their success of this, and they teach people this thing, we all have struggles. And I don't know, you may have had something coming up in your life that cause another thing to be the priority, or you lost motivation, because whatever drove you before, didn't drive you any more. And you're sharing these tools in the toolbox. Like, there's some external motivation. There's the music, there's the visual contrasting, which is great, because now you're imagining how much it would suck not to do it before you do, you don't do it, as opposed to waiting and then feeling the suck and then being like, letting that motivate you maybe next time. So yeah, man, it's good to hear this. How's the podcast going? Because I say that, because I know, there was a little gap there. I don't know, if that was like intentional, or you're just getting back on the mic. You know, it was intentional break.

Adam Poehlmann 31:12

Yeah. So essentially, the gap there was, I was going hard at it with not much intention, other than I'm gonna put out three episodes a week. And that's pretty much it. That's all I'm gonna do, and use it as a way to have long form content, because social media obviously is like the worst place for nuance and context and whatnot. And, you know, hopefully, help with the know, like, and trust factor, you know, my job is getting clients and taking them to their goals and easy way for someone to know like, and trust me is hearing my voice and talk and whatnot. So I just started doing that and was really, really consistent with it. And then there was a period where things got a lot more inconsistent, because I was going through some like mentorship, business coaching. So I was going all in on social media, I was going all in on email I was going all in on I'm serving my clients, even more so than I was in the past, which is like crazy to think it's like, how do you even expand on that, and the podcast just took a backseat. And now I'm kind of in a spot where I'm gaining more of a consistent rhythm. And this is one of the things Believe it or not, I don't love everything that I do. But podcasting is one of the few things that I love. Like I love it. The podcast itself, I'm sure compared to others, it's horrible. If I'm honest with you, I don't even look at the numbers. I have no clue. But I love having conversations, even if it's just with myself. And so for me, it's like, okay, I need to pour into what fills my soul and what gives me joy. And that's the podcast. And so that's the reason that you saw a little bit of a break there. And ideally, it'll maintain consistency again. Yeah,

Philip Pape 32:37

and I wasn't trying to call you out is more of an observation, you know, like, not wondering, it's, I can relate to so much of that. Yeah, yeah, but about the podcast and wanting to make it yours and make it kind of serve you and the audience, because that's what we got in this because we love it. We had some personal experience with all of this. And that is going to help people the most is really tying into that and not just, you know, being a Wikipedia article of information. I say that because the one one star review I had, the guy called me a Wikipedia article for this. He said, It sounds like I was reading from Wikipedia, you know, and that's when it gets to like, the limiting beliefs and the Yeah, the self doubt. And you're like, Well, you've got all these five star reviews. What about those, you know, and we do this to ourselves, dude, yes. 100%. That's one of the mindset. So like, you know, people listening, this is real, right? Like, this is real stuff. Real life effects everything.

Adam Poehlmann 33:25

Can I Yeah, go ahead, please.

Philip Pape 33:27

Got some other stuff. Please. Jet? No,

Adam Poehlmann 33:29

you're good. One of the things. There was a period at the beginning of this where you asked me a question, and I really stumbled because I was like, what was the beginning of his question? I forgot. I should just stop the mask. But you reminded me as you talked about the negatives, and one of them was the fact that like you said, we just focus on these negatives, you have all these five star reviews, you get that one star, you get that one negative comment that one troll on social media. And you're like, do I actually know what I'm talking about? Right now, on paper, yeah, like, on paper, you're like, This is user 123456. And it's a dog cartoon with sunglasses. That's a profile picture, private profile, you're like, on paper, this should not matter. But Emotionally, it matters so much. The most

34:13

value that I got from this was the fact that I had someone that I could talk to about anything, and that there was going to be no judgment, it was just Well, here are your goals, here's the best way that you're going to achieve it. And then let's work together to help you feel inspired and motivated to do that. And a lot of people out there trying to be coaches and not all of them have done the work and also just be a genuine person that is positive and coming from the heart in terms of wanting to help and Phillip really embodied all of those qualities. I would recommend him to just about anyone that's looking to achieve goals in that realm of their nutrition and building new habits.

Adam Poehlmann 34:58

So I heard someone say once i wish i To remember where I heard it, but our minds kind of focus on the negatives and they use this illustration where you know if you have this bowl of your favorite what's your favorite ice cream?

Philip Pape 35:08

Peanut Butter Cup?

Adam Poehlmann 35:09

Go it. Okay. What brand? Oh,

Philip Pape 35:12

yeah, anything but like, I'll go to Dairy Queen or something like that, you know, like Reese's Peanut Butter Cups lizard or something you need to Yeah.

Adam Poehlmann 35:19

So you have your your your Reese's Peanut Butter Cup ice cream, right? And then you have a cockroach on top. Okay, exactly, exactly. It's like that cockroach just touched the top, you're not even focused on the ice growing. Right. But if you have a bowl of cockroaches, and one dollop of your or, you know, scoop of your favorite ice cream cockroaches, so I think about right, and it just kind of illustrates how easy it is for us to focus on the negative, we have to put so much work in to focus on the positives, we have to go out of our way because our default is to focus on the negative. And tying that back into earlier when I said that I kind of forgot the beginning of your question, when you asked about the practical tips. Before getting into the practical tips. One of the most important things is understanding the power of your mind. So you can believe that the practical tips will work. And there are a few things that come to mind with this. And there are some papers that have illustrated it. But we all probably understand the placebo and nocebo effect, you know, you give someone a sugar pill, they think it's something that physiological effects will come into play. You give them a no SIBO where it's like you just tell them that something's happening. They believe it. So two great examples. One was like, it's I think I don't even know if it's called the milkshake experiment, but that's what it's commonly called, where two groups were given the same milkshake and one group it was told, I use this with my fat loss clients a lot. One group was told it was very calorie dense, you know, satiating, filling milkshake, the other group was told it was a very, quote unquote, sensible low calorie milkshake. Well, the group that was told it was a sensible milkshake had far more hunger, they felt deprived, and they felt like they felt fatigued. Whereas the satiating milkshake group, the ones that were told it was a shame, we're like, I'm great, you know. So even when it comes to calories, how we think we're going to feel is often how we feel there was another one that took two groups of people one at clerk maintenance, one at clerk deficit, and they did the same thing told them, hey, you're in a deficit, hey, you're you're not. And the group in a deficit experienced? Well, this group was told they weren't in a deficit, even though they were experienced less hunger than all that stuff. And then another one that makes me think of the, the effect is, these took these college aged guys, which is like every study, but they took these colleges guys, and then told them that they were taking steroids. And I think they're, I'll have to remember what exercise I want to say it was leg press bench and something else, but increased by 33%. And it was like, it wasn't in a long period of time, like it was quick. And so our minds are far more powerful than we give them credit for. And so before even going into the practical tips, is really just understanding and accepting that, hey, your mind can take you to places that your body thought it could never go. And you need to just train it. And when you accept that's the truth, and then go into the practical, you'll move mountains. It's crazy. Yeah,

Philip Pape 38:09

it is true, how powerful it is. And sometimes, like when I think of going to the gym, so I'm recovering from shoulder surgery last year, it's like almost a year ago, right? That's a doozy. rotator cuff is tough, because like you recover, you recover, you recover. And then there's like the setbacks because you end up pushing too hard. And bursitis and all that comes up. So yesterday was the first time I did like, just overhead press work in a couple months, like I had gotten to it. And then I had to get off of it to kind of recover it and got back to it. But my mind was telling me like, there's no way right, because, you know, just opening up my arm and trying to press over, there's this little bit of soreness and pain there. Right, but it's manageable. And you just have like you said, you just have to tell yourself, no, this is 100%. Possible. My trainer said I'm good to go. Like just do it. And then you realize you do it right. Yep. And it holds us back as much as it could help us move forward. So I think that's the power of it is like, how much can give us the power to move forward?

Adam Poehlmann 39:03

Yeah, yeah, that's, that's what that's why I brought the ice cream thing. So it's like that power is going to be there either way? Are you going to let the default override and think about the cockroaches? Or are you going to use it to your advantage and think about the ice cream or, you know, whatever the positive outcome is that you're wanting?

Philip Pape 39:19

So in practical purposes, then this sounds somewhat tied into we talked about limiting beliefs on the negative side, right? Like we're telling ourselves things and then we reinforcing in our mind, shifting from that to maybe releasing those and then embracing new beliefs. What is the practical that's what people want to know, like, how do I make myself think I'm in a surplus when I'm not right? Or is that like when you're in a deficit and you're not at a deficit because either your your weight is going down, or you're tracking your food, you're gonna know so and maybe that's not the example that you'll be able to apply to yourself. But totally, there definitely

Adam Poehlmann 39:51

is an element right there of like, for example, those people being studied were lied to right and you can't lie to yourself. But that's the point is like understanding that a lot of how you feel comes from your mind can help you have that positive self talk. And then that will improve over time, even though you know you're doing it. But as far as a practical from a food standpoint, and even taking that calorie deficit standpoint, one of my favorite things to go over with people, and I think it's if I'm being 100% honest with you, a part of the reason, the whole notion that, you know, under a certain amount of calories, like the imaginary 1300, or 1200 calories is inherently bad is all over the place, is because even though it's not scientifically true at all, is because we lack an abundance mindset with food, especially when it comes to a calorie deficit. So when we focus on adding, and not taking away, that's huge. So all that means is like you are just you're adding low calorie, nutrient dense foods to your diet, instead of looking at your diet and saying, Hey, what are all these quote unquote, bad things or hypercaloric things that I need to take away? We say, What am I lacking that I can add, I'm not getting any spinach, and I'm not getting any greens. And let's add some spinach in there. I'm not getting any fruit in on a regular basis, let's add some of that in, I'm not getting any fiber way below the minimum RDA, like I should be getting more, and let's add more of that. And what tends to happen is the stuff that is bad or does not align with your goals. And what you want out of your nutrition will find its way out. But as you're doing it, you're not doing it from like a depravity mindset, you're giving yourself stuff you're adding and adding and adding and adding and adding. So that is going to help you psychologically, so with a nutritional piece, that one is huge. In terms of the workout piece. So hold

Philip Pape 41:34

on before before we go there, because there's a few different scenarios, I want to break down on that fat loss versus like, you know, when we're talking about getting more protein or whatever, obviously, you can apply to anything, right, this additive approach. And just something just came to mind, like I'm in a fat loss phase. So you know, getting the hunger, I know that if I add a huge bowl of strawberries, you know, to whatever I'm eating in the afternoon, even if I have a craving for a granola bar or whatever, adding that in is both going to serve what you said, like the nutrients and it's gonna fill up my stomach, and all of a sudden the rest of the days. Yes, hunky dory.

Adam Poehlmann 42:05

So you're used to that hyper palatable, highly processed diet. That's just our environment. You know, it's, it's, we're a product of an environment. So it's goes back to the alcohol piece, you know, you just don't know what you don't know. And so once you realize, okay, the way we used to live, and I'm not saying that, you know, we should live like our ancestors it all the time, but like the way we used to live, we had food when we were hungry, and then we had food that was very low and calorie and very satiating, we had a lot of it. I was reading a few studies of a couple of weeks ago, I think that they even in modern hunter gatherer tribes, some of these guys are getting like 80 to 100 grams of fiber a day. It's absurd. But their calories are not crazy at all, because they're just it's plants and fruits, veggies all the time. And so you don't know what you don't know. But once you start realizing, oh, okay, if I just pursue more whole natural nutrient dense foods, especially fiber, and I pursue food volume, strawberries, watermelon, whatever, I can have so much food without having tons of calories. I can actually more food volume than I did before when I was eating more calories.

Philip Pape 43:08

Yeah, Justin Caudill was on the show. I don't know if you've talked to him yet. But you'd love to guy. He's an anatomist. Like he did cadaver research. He was head of like the human anatomy lab. So he comes from that perspective. And he's Oh, sweet. You saw the gut health and the hodza tribe, and how they like the children have, they have large bellies, but it's not descended from like malnutrition, it's because of all the gas being produced by the gut bacteria from all the fiber the interesting, right? And because they have such diversity and such a like large microbiome. Anyway, you mentioned that they also eat a lot of honey, right, which is nutrient dense, but it's like a good balance part of their, you know, calories that they get on the side topic.

Adam Poehlmann 43:45

No, you're good. And then I was just gonna say with the workout piece, that one's a little harder, right? Because working out is in the moment, hard. It's physically exhausting, it's exerting. And one of this is going to be like someone that seems like will die. But one of the best pieces I can give, one of the best pieces of advice I can give to people is what I tell my clients when it comes to progressing, and adding the next weight is just try and who cares if you don't get the reps that you're supposed to? If you don't give yourself that opportunity to stretch yourself? How are you ever going to know what you are capable of, and what you may not be capable of? You know, so instead of wondering, ooh, shoot, you know, I only got 10 reps in the leg press with 200 pounds. I don't know if I can go to 210. What is someone going to come up and kill you? If you get eight reps with 210? Go for it. Right? So there's an element of creating that self belief to the reps and then there's also an element to of exposing your body to that stimulus because your body will respond. I think that the human body is one of the most profound adaptation machines we've ever seen. And it will respond to whatever it is that you're doing. Do we have physical limitations? Absolutely. We can't turn into the Incredible Hulk we have a ceiling in some regard. But most of us don't have any understanding of what our ceiling is you I think that if we look at most, again, another study that I'm not remembering the title of, but if we look at elite power lifters, right, they supposedly can access upwards of like 96% 97% of their total strength, whereas the average human being can access maybe the 50 to 60%. And so there is an immense amount of untapped potential that your body will let you do, or get to, if you just give it the opportunity, just say, Hey, buddy, I need you here. It'll come through for you. So just trying and putting yourself out there, exposing yourself getting the practice and getting the reps in, that will also make you more confident with your ability to challenge yourself and push yourself. And so though, it will become physically easier, it will become mentally easier, and there won't be an obstacle or a hurdle to overcome next time, you need to push yourself. So

Philip Pape 45:47

that's a really good one. And we got to sit on this one for a bit, the just try thing because in my early days of doing strength training, I did a starting training program, right, which is sets across a five reps. And you're kind of forced, when you do sets across like you want to get those reps. So it almost like it kind of pushes you to go past that lizard brain limit. Because you're like, I gotta get five. Like it's not I don't have eight to 12. I'm going for an RPE. But what are your thoughts about newer lifters especially, or even intermediate who just aren't pushing hard enough? They're not getting anywhere close to failure they think they are? And if you said document your RPE? They'll they'll say nine, you're like, that's a six? What are your thoughts on all of that? And maybe a simple approach for newer lifters to just get in the mindset of hitting that rep closer to failure? Besides just try because I love I love just try I do. But is there a mechanistic way we can even like mistake proof that early on? Yeah,

Adam Poehlmann 46:42

that's a really good question. You know, I would imagine there's going to be a lot of variance with that. But the first thing I would say Phillip is training in a strength based rep range. So a rep range that focuses on the adaptation of strength. And so that's low to maybe moderate. This is one of the first times in my life that I realized how strong I could be. Because before I was so obsessed, like I said, with building bigger muscles, and so the thought of like, going below eight reps, I was like, what, that's who would do that, that's stupid. And I started getting into deadlifting. And I would do two reps and three reps. And I was like, Whoa, there's a lot here, like my central nervous system can do a lot that I didn't think he could before. So I would say, lowering reps a bit, can definitely help. Because one thing that I think happens when you have higher, maybe more moderate rep ranges is that you start to feel that burn, you start to feel that metabolic stress, you know, that pump, and that's definitely a level of discomfort, but it's not like mechanical or technical failure of the muscle. Whereas with strength and those lower reps, you don't build up a lot of that metabolic damage. So you don't get that sensation before you physically cannot move anymore, like you like literally cannot get it up. And so I think that's an easy way for you to introduce yourself to what it actually looks like to get to failure, then once you start to get into those more moderate rep ranges, then you just have to get to the hurdle of like, okay, am I convincing myself that I'm getting to failure because I'm fatigued. And I'm feeling that stress, and I'm feeling that strain. And so I want to slow down and stop, or is this an actual, I'm giving every last bit of energy that I possibly can, and the machine or barbell or weight literally is not moving. That's the first thing. The second thing, and I would definitely recommend doing this with machines. Not so much with free weights, even if you have a spotter. But intentionally go to failure. Practice it 100%, practice it, not all the time. But like pick a workout or one exercise each workout the last set, take it to absolute failure. And then once you think you've reached failure, pause for like two seconds and try to do another rep, and then do it again and do it again. Because this is where the mindset we can use our mind to kind of trick ourselves and I even catch myself doing this is one of the best ways to look at RPE is the velocity that we have in our reps, like how much our reps are slowing down. Because RPE can be a little subjective, you know, it's that feeling how did I feel like what was a nine, it's like, well, the speed of your rep from the second rep to the 10th rep was the exact same, but you saw the 10. So clearly, you weren't, you know, reaching failure. But if we look at our velocity, and rep is really slowing down, and it is like a grind to even move it another inch, another inch or inch, then you know you're really getting to that failure. But you can easily trick yourself, you know and think Oh man, I'm really tired. And then that year, yes, seventh rep is pretty quick. And then that eighth rep all of a sudden just slows down drastically. Right? And you're like, you're like, Okay, I'm convincing myself that I'm fatigued here. But learning to push through that and actually just go through failure, I think is really one of the best learning experiences you can have just getting those pun intended reps in so you can familiarize yourself with what true failure looks like. So hopefully that's a little bit more helpful. Right. Yeah,

Philip Pape 50:00

no, that's great. And of course, if you have a coach, if you have someone doing form checks, they'll be able to see the speed as well and kind of know what's going on. Yes.

Adam Poehlmann 50:06

And that's another thing, actually, thank you for actually saying that. filming yourself is huge. Because when we, this is someone you know, I've, I did training. In high school for baseball, I did training in college for baseball, I've been working out for a very long time. And it wasn't until I was able to fill myself more in the gym, I would say, in the first few years of me personal training that I was actually able to see how I was pushing myself in ways that were maybe too much because my form got way too sloppy, or not at all right? Because I was stopping because of the burn or whatever or I was psyching myself out, filming yourself really is a great way for you to remove yourself from the first person and look at it from the third person. And it helps at least in my opinion, it helps you look at what you're doing more objectively doesn't matter if you have a coach, you know, to look at it, you, you look at how you're doing that how you're performing that set. And that's really going to give you a lot of insight that I almost guarantee you you did not pick up on when you were in first person mode, going through it yourself.

Philip Pape 51:09

100% I think that works for anything visual, even even like public speaking, anything, just videoing yourself. And one last thing with failure, I just realized, you know, let people been talking about lengthen partials a lot. There's this like, movement of lengthen partial finishers. And I was thinking when you were talking about going to failure, like, if you were to think, okay, my set is going to have lengthen partial finishers at the end, you wouldn't want to start those while you still have gas in the tank to finish full wraps. So that might also create an interesting mental position of like, I'm gonna do the lengthens. But no, wait, I could do a full wrap again and kind of bridge that gap.

Adam Poehlmann 51:43

100%? No, absolutely. There's so many there are so many things to consider there. And I you know, the lengthen partial thing is, I think just yet another example of missing the forest for the trees, I think could it have its time and its place? Absolutely. I've never programmed that in for a client, I would probably never program that in for myself. Because for me, it's you know, if I can get to a point where I can put more weight on for the last set and do lengthen partials, like you said, does that mean that I left stuff on the table during the second set, and during the first set. And for me, and I think it should be for anybody. If you're progressing your workouts and you're tracking them, you really want to look at how you compare from set one of one exercise to the next day or the next time you did the workout to that set one, you could compare set two to set two and set three to set three if you want to. But you're in a fatigued state. So it's a little harder to assess and judge progress. So for me, you know, if I would rather spend my time and energy trying to figure out how to optimize I should say maximize set one, and then increase that in the next workout rather than thinking, Okay, let's go ahead and just absolutely trash my hamstrings on set 300 set and add more weight. Even though I probably could have done more before that. So if you're already doing that stuff and you want to like you know, just crank it out just to see what happens and you've got everything else dialed in. Go nuts, but I mean, hey, Philip, most people aren't even writing down their basics down. Yeah, they're not, they're not writing down. They're not writing down their their reps, their weight, their exercises. They're even switching workouts every you know, few weeks, which I think can be even too early, sometimes sometimes even doing a new workout every day. And so it's like, how do you know you're progressing? And so, yeah, anyway, that was

Philip Pape 53:21

and it's easy to take this stuff for granted, right? Even though you see clients constantly come in that don't even know the basics, and you have to re educate them. But then you're like, doesn't everybody know this stuff? But

Adam Poehlmann 53:31

it don't make anybody like listening feel better? Like I kid you not? I'd never seen would ever seen myself programming that in my workout. It's like, Why? Why am I going to spend my mental energy doing that for something that maybe gets less than a percentage of growth? You know, anyway,

Philip Pape 53:45

so yeah, I guess the last topic because there were a lot of things we could talk about with mindset. I wanted to talk about like this diet, we have have information, right? Like, I've been thinking about this a lot, because, you know, I have a friend that does a podcast about how you shouldn't binge podcasts, right? You should like, listen, mindfully and take action. And I heard another guy, a podcast podcast, which I listened to those See, I listen to a lot. And he's like, stop listening at one and a half speed. If you're doing that, why are you even listening? Like you're just trying to cram in more information rather than just absorb it. And then there's just the sheer quantity if you're on Instagram and Twitter and threads and Facebook, which a lot of people are on like eight social media platforms. It's just like, bombarding you. How do we deal with all that? Like? That's a big question. It's a big loaded question, but it does affect your mind. And it affects like you take an action sometimes not taking action because you're just like, I don't even know where to go. Yeah.

Adam Poehlmann 54:40

Yeah, absolutely. It is. We definitely live in a consumeristic culture and mindset, not even the sense of like materialism but information to all we do is consume. I couldn't think about it at church. Sometimes Sometimes I catch myself being like, Oh, I wish so and so is speaking, you know, because I think I enjoy it more. It's like What am I here to consumer? Am I here to like serve? What's the deal? And so we can easily do that with podcasts with social media with whatever it is. And so one thing that came to mind as you're going through that fill up was like, intention. I felt like, that's the word that came to me. What's the intention? us getting on social media and consuming a certain type of content? What is the intention of turning into a podcast? Am I here to fill space? Or am I here to learn a specific thing? And so I think one thing that is extremely helpful is understanding what you are trying to learn at this current time. One thing, one thing and make it very specific, not hey, how can I improve my nutrition? Like, one specific thing, meal planning, I want to learn everything that I possibly can about meal planning. And these are the questions that I have about meal planning. Right? How do people that are so busy fit it in? How do you time block time to do that? How do you grocery shop for that? I think, actually, at the very worst, thinking through those questions, but at the at least, or the very best writing them down. And then using those platforms, or those long form, yeah, podcasts, whatever, to get those answers. But I think what happens oftentimes, is we just open up the screen with no intention, then we just consume, and consume and consume. And so we're just left with this paralysis by analysis. And we're left with this doubt, and we're left with with so and so said this, and so and said that so and so said that, I mean, heck, that's one of the reasons most of my clients come in, they're like, I just need to clear the noise. And I need someone to tell me what to do. Because all this is too much to, to take in. And I'm constantly doubting myself. So anyway, figuring out what the intention is and what you're trying to learn. And I would do that for a period of time, maybe a week, about one thing, or a month about one thing. When you look at people who do really well in life, they take time to master and focus on one thing really, really well. Right? They're not people who are jumping from this to that, this thing and that thing, and whatever. You know, it would be weird. If you saw a professional baseball player, going through their practice routine, and for 10 minutes, they practice basketball for 10 minutes, they practice football for 10 minutes, they practice hitting for 10 minutes, they practice pitching, like, what are you doing? Right? If you're a pitcher practice pitching. So same thing, we want to get very specific with what it is we're trying to learn, and pursue that intentionally. And then once you're done, you've written down what you want to do, throw it away, and then apply it. And then rinse and repeat. But the problem is we consume, we get it in our mind. And then before we have a chance to process and think we've shoved the next thing in there, and then we shove the next thing in there over and over. And so stuff starts to slip out. So practically speaking, that's what I do. So I will pick, I will get a book that physically, I can't listen to it, you know, one and a half times speed, I can't, you know, like change my reading speed. People say you can't I haven't tried. But it slows me down is the point. I have a pen, I circle I underline, I bookmark things. And then I go back. And I think, what was I originally like reading this book for? And what things that I save helped me with that. And then how can I go apply that into my life. And then for a period of time might be a few days, it might be a week, it might be six months, I apply those things into my life. And then I will go on to the next thing if I feel the need or I will revisit that same thing, if I feel like those answers still aren't there. So I don't know if that helps at all, or clarifies.

Philip Pape 58:16

It helps. It helps a lot. I mean, it explains you in a sense from what you're saying, in fact, we're going back to talking about being obsessed about something and obsessed in a positive way, like putting all your energy into one thing, because we're so distracted. And I think back to like, I used to play saxophone a lot. And actually, I want to pick it up more frequently than I do. It's one of those things, you know, like, I gotta be intentional about it. But you know, you've always heard it takes 10,000 hours to master an instrument, and you have to just constantly apply yourself and fitness is the same way but also information. Before we go on to this. You mentioned note taking in the books. Have you heard of the book, The well educated mind. It's by Susan wise Bauer and she's actually in the homeschool community because we homeschool our kids. Oh, and she wrote a book for mothers to use as curriculum that we've been following for years. She wrote a book for adults on how to do what they used to do, which is actually dissect the book, like a classic and go through it multiple times in an organized like hierarchical way. So you might find that interesting as a method or I'm absolutely going to add that so that's what I did mine. Okay, that's a good one. Yeah. Anyway, so when people are doing all this with podcasts, like I say podcasts, but it could be anything else. Instagram, Facebook, whatever. How would you say you apply that to that? Because I see definitely how it applies to books, podcasts, you ask questions, you dig down into a topic, you seek it out, you start to like find the fluff and the nonsense and you jettison that and it converges, right. Like I've been through that myself with fitness I knew all the nonsense five years ago, and now I know a little bit less nonsense, so I'm a little bit more educated. Exactly. Or I can spot it. Let's just put it that way. But like I feel like social media is kind of nefarious, just in itself, by definition in that there's, you know, you're the product and I'm trying to give you ads. And that's the whole point of it. How would you use Instagram? For example, to do this?

Adam Poehlmann 1:00:05

Yeah, so this one's tough for sure. Because you you are, you can't change the way it works, right? It is, in and of itself a short form quick, you know, fix dopamine hit. So you can't change the nature of social media, this kind of goes into the internal and external locus of control, can't change the nature of social media, that would be ridiculous. But you can adopt an internal locus of control, and change the way that you use the social media or the way that you respond to it. So one of the things that comes to mind and the first thing I thought of as having utilizing that saved feature, okay, now, you still have to go a step further than that, right? So for me, I have a lot of different folders in there, right? So I have folders on business, I have folders on nutrition, I have folders on coaching and training concepts. I have a hilarious, funny folder, I'll have a Kaylee folder where like, she'll think this is funny, then I'll show her, you know, but those folders don't mean anything, if you don't go through them. And so what I would say is save stuff that is truly important to you. And then set aside some dedicated time to go through that folder and say, okay, is this something that I really like, cared about? Because sometimes in that moment, you're like, well, I'll save this recipe, I'm for sure gonna make that I saved it two years ago. Clearly, you don't think you didn't need it, so you can throw it away. But if there's stuff where it's like, oh, yeah, this was profound, then you can actually figure out how to apply that into your life. I think that's one way you can use social media. Another way, is obviously filtering. You know, if there are people that you follow that you haven't applied a single piece of advice from unfollowed him, like, I don't care how good their advice is on social media, you didn't do anything with it, it would be far better for you to take the mediocre advice that you constantly apply and keep pursuing that than to take the great advice that you never apply. So unfollow people, like I do that all the time. Like, I'll go through and be like, Who have I not seen anything from? Who do I not listen to? Who is just kind of a piece of flash with information, but I haven't utilized any of it unfollow. And so that's what I would recommend there as well. And then in terms of the actual platforms themselves, I would honestly, you know, actually not that I think of it. If you find yourself not using social media for the things that you claim you're using it for, like learning things and getting information, maybe just make social media purely about entertainment, and go to podcast for fitness, go to books for fitness, go to longer YouTube videos for fitness, whatever it is, and maybe just use social media purely for entertainment. That's maybe another solution. Again, not a social media expert. But that's one thing that comes to mind. So I don't know, I don't know if that's helpful. I don't know what you would add to that.

Philip Pape 1:02:37

Yeah, yeah, no, I, I'm just I'm giving you the space here. Don't put me on the spot. No, but seriously, for me, I like I do like the idea that platforms have a purpose. And maybe we're trying to shoehorn it into the wrong thing. Because like, I personally, I don't know how much I learned from IG, except occasionally, I'll see some gold come out in a in a video where somebody has really taken the time to give some value, you know, and that's the difference between people are just like cranking out viral stuff versus, you know, they really are trying to help with their message, even though they're also trying to get followers. And like you said, you could save it or you know, learn from it. It's

Adam Poehlmann 1:03:12

very Yeah, it's very, it's very rare, I would agree I can, I can think I can think of off top my head, I'm sure if I went through it, I could, but I can't think off the top of my head, the last time that I saw a post or a reel where I was like, holy smokes, this is life changing, you know, like this, I changed everything in my business or everything in my marriage or everything, whatever. Because of this, what actually ends up happening is I'll see something, I like it, go to the profile, go to their other stuff. And then that's where stuff comes in. You know, and I always tell people all the time, they usually say something like this, where it's like, Man, I, there's just all this information out there. And I'm in the same spot. And sometimes I'm like, Do you really think everybody's free information is going to, like help you as much as their coaching or their long form content or whatever. No, like it's not, it's not going to. So yes, utilize it, if it helps for sure. But go into the rabbit hole a little bit. And don't be afraid to do it. Utilize something that is maybe paid it costs you $20 For an ebook, but at least you can go all the way through it and read it and actually take something versus just scrolling on to the next reel. Because that's another thing that's kind of unhelpful with the reels of the post is that we don't have enough time to digest and process what we just consumed. It's on to the next thing. I guarantee you if I were to scroll right now for five minutes, and you were to ask me what I watched, I would probably remember the one funny video that I liked died laughing and saved it and I would not remember anything else no matter how profound I thought it was in that moment. So yeah, anyway,

Philip Pape 1:04:34

it's so true. It's so true. Some of my favorite like followers on the short form platforms are the ones who listen to my podcast you know, it's like that's where they know me. Right? Right and you're right you're right so and obviously people are listening to this show too and they can follow your stuff and you've got some maybe they I don't know if their life changing but hey, I referenced one in here about the contrasting which is a you did actionable thing. And just so the listener knows like one of our longtime listeners and former client of mine, you know List follows Allah, Adam and was touched by a few of his posts in terms of actually taking action. And he's an action taker. So that's what you got to be too. Anyway. All right, man. So we've covered a lot here. I'm sure there's a million other things we can get into. But it's, I do like to ask this question of guests. And that is, is there anything you wish I had asked in this whole conversation that I didn't? And if so, what would be your answer?

Adam Poehlmann 1:05:22

Man, that is a great question. To answer anything that I wish you asked. Honestly, there's nothing that comes to mind. We got into a lot, we got into the mindset piece, I got to share a little bit about my faith, I got to share some vulnerable things about where I'm at with working out in training, and I've loved it. So there's nothing that comes to mind.

Philip Pape 1:05:39

Yeah, likewise, man has a lot of fun, supernatural. Yeah, we're on the same page. And, you know, we all have different perspectives and backgrounds, but it's like, man, we're just trying to get this done. And everybody listening, just change your lives. I mean, it'll if you do something you learn today, do it Adam suggesting like, rewind, go back, find some of those excellent quotes, like the one he just said, which was, keep, you know, if you take action on mediocre advice, it's gonna be better than not taking action on the best advice. Very important statement right there. You know, it doesn't have to be perfect. So all right, where can listeners learn more about you, Adam?

Adam Poehlmann 1:06:11

Yeah. So y'all listeners, you can find me on Instagram. That's where I'm the most active and it's just my first name. Last Name. Holman is po EHL. Ma. And, and, and the German relatives really gave me a hard time with that one. And it's a little tricky. Yeah. But yeah, that's okay. And then obviously, the fitness show on Spotify and Apple podcasts. And then you can find me on threads to same Adam Pullman. That's by far where I am the most active. And if you're someone who is a gym goer and wants to drop 10 plus pounds without strict dieting, and you want some more in depth stuff, I've got a free Facebook group called the transformation tribe where I put out live workshops and put out some more in depth content that goes a little bit deeper than the surface level stuff you might see on social media. So that's where y'all can find me if you want to.

Philip Pape 1:06:55

And Adams, a great master at using these platforms, the way they're intended, like so on threads threads is great, just for the quick tips, you know, and here's how you do it act take action, it kind of cuts out all the distractions in the video and images, all that and in the Facebook group. Yeah, I think Facebook groups like that can be awesome for just getting in that community and that relatedness and finding other people who can motivate you and help you get there. So check all that out. I'll throw it in the show notes been an awesome conversation. Adam, thank you so much for taking the time.

Adam Poehlmann 1:07:21

Absolutely, Philip. Thanks for having me on.

Philip Pape 1:07:25

Thank you for tuning in to another episode of wit's end weights. If you found value in today's episode, and know someone else who's looking to level up their weights or weights. Please take a moment to share this episode with them. And make sure to hit the Follow button in your podcast platform right now to catch the next episode. Until then, stay strong.

Philip Pape 6/25/24 Philip Pape 6/25/24

Q&A - Rapid Fat Loss, Body Recomp, Building Muscle Over 40, Tracking Veggies w/Jeff Hoehn | Ep 184

Is rapid weight loss worth the risk? Can you really build muscle while losing fat? How important is nutrition tracking for your fitness journey? Philip welcomes back Jeff Hoehn for another co-hosted Q&A episode. This time, they discuss aggressive fat loss strategies, the benefits of higher protein intake, and overcoming menopause-related hurdles. They dive into the controversial topic of rapid weight loss, the importance of structured diet breaks, and the real deal about slow metabolism. Philip and Jeff also compare powerlifting and bodybuilding during fat loss phases, emphasizing the role of heavy compound lifts and hypertrophy training. They also talk about nutrition tracking, low-calorie, nutrient-dense foods, and fiber intake.

Is rapid weight loss worth the risk? Can you really build muscle while losing fat? How important is nutrition tracking for your fitness journey?

Today, Philip (@witsandweights) welcomes back Jeff Hoehn for another co-hosted Q&A episode. This time, they discuss aggressive fat loss strategies, the benefits of higher protein intake, and overcoming menopause-related hurdles. They dive into the controversial topic of rapid weight loss, the importance of structured diet breaks, and the real deal about slow metabolism. Philip and Jeff also compare powerlifting and bodybuilding during fat loss phases, emphasizing the role of heavy compound lifts and hypertrophy training. They also talk about nutrition tracking, low-calorie, nutrient-dense foods, and fiber intake.

Today, you’ll learn all about:

3:24 What are your views on rapid fat loss and the frequency of aggressive cuts? Also, how do you feel about protein-sparing modified fasting in a 5:2 diet for general weight loss?
12:10 Does consuming more protein than recommended have any benefits?
19:35 How can I effectively lose fat and reveal muscle definition despite increasing my calorie intake, exercising regularly, and maintaining a high-protein diet?
32:38 How feasible is it to build muscle in a deficit?
44:15 Heavier weight or more reps for an older guy looking to build a base for longevity?
54:09 In fat loss, does counting veggies affect the macros? Should I log them?
59:10 Outro

Episode resources:

The Mind Muscle Connection podcast
Jeff’s IG: @jeffhoehn_

Related episodes:

Episode summary:

In this episode, we delve deep into the multifaceted world of fitness and nutrition with Jeff Hoehn from the Mind Muscle Connection podcast. This episode is packed with science-backed strategies and practical tips to help you achieve your fitness goals, whether you're looking to build muscle, lose fat, or navigate menopause-related challenges. Join us as we uncover the truths about aggressive fat loss, high protein diets, and the importance of personalized fitness plans.

One of the central themes we discuss is the possibility of building muscle while losing fat. This concept, often met with skepticism, is explored through the lens of individual body composition and training history. For those with higher body fat percentages, muscle gain in a calorie deficit is achievable, provided that other conditions such as proper sleep, stress management, and a specific training regimen are met. We emphasize that while muscle can be built in a deficit, it is generally less efficient than building muscle at maintenance or in a caloric surplus. This nuanced understanding helps set realistic expectations and guides listeners on how to tailor their fitness plans.

Aggressive fat loss strategies are another hot topic. We break down the pros and cons of rapid weight loss, particularly the protein-sparing modified fast within a 5-2 diet framework. Jeff shares his own experience with a rapid fat loss protocol inspired by Dr. Bill Campbell, highlighting the importance of maintaining high protein intake and rigorous training during short, aggressive deficits. The discussion underscores the need for adequate recovery between cycles and the potential mental hurdles of adhering to such a regimen. We advocate for personalized approaches that ensure long-term adherence and success, rather than extreme methods that may lead to unsustainable habits.

High protein diets are essential for both muscle building and fat loss. We explore the benefits and potential downsides of consuming higher-than-recommended amounts of protein. While the optimal range for muscle building is typically between 0.8 to 1 gram per pound of body weight, higher protein intake can aid in satiety and thermic effect, which are beneficial for fat loss. However, we also address potential drawbacks, such as reduced carbohydrate and fat intake, digestive challenges, and dietary monotony. The importance of individual preferences and dietary goals in determining the appropriate level of protein consumption is emphasized, ensuring that listeners can make informed choices that align with their fitness objectives.

For those facing menopause-related fitness challenges, we provide tailored advice on how to navigate this life stage. We discuss the impact of age and hormonal changes on body composition and stress the importance of tracking progress accurately. Practical tips are offered on setting realistic goals, emphasizing other metrics such as strength and measurements over scale weight, and ensuring a balanced approach to nutrition and training. The episode highlights the significance of patience, consistency, and aligning fitness goals with personal values for long-term success.

Powerlifting versus bodybuilding styles during fat loss phases is another area of focus. We clarify the differences between these approaches and emphasize the importance of incorporating hypertrophy-focused training to maximize muscle retention and growth. The concept of auto-regulated training is introduced, where adjusting volume rather than just intensity can stimulate muscle growth even in a calorie deficit. This section aims to debunk misconceptions around the necessity of a caloric surplus for muscle gain, particularly for individuals with higher body fat percentages, and highlights the potential for body recomposition.

Strength training for longevity and functionality is crucial, especially for older adults. We discuss the benefits of combining heavy compound lifts with muscle-building exercises to enhance daily activities and prevent falls. Joint health and recovery are addressed, with recommendations on easing into routines and allowing adequate recovery time. Personal preference and consistency are highlighted as key factors in sustaining an exercise regimen, reinforcing the idea that the best exercise is one that an individual enjoys and can maintain over time.

Practical tips on tracking nutrition are provided, focusing on the practicality of logging meals and the importance of accuracy with calorie-dense foods. The discussion emphasizes that if positive results are being seen, meticulous tracking of low-calorie, nutrient-dense foods like vegetables may not be necessary. However, tracking might be beneficial if a plateau is reached or if micronutrient intake is being monitored. The importance of fiber intake for better health outcomes is also underscored.

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Transcript

Philip Pape 00:00

How often can you safely repeat an aggressive cut for rapid fat loss? Can consuming more protein than the recommended amount really benefit you? What's the best strategy for postmenopausal women struggling with fat loss? Is it truly possible to build muscle in a calorie deficit? Today I'm again conspiring with Jeff Hain of the mind muscle connection podcast for a special co hosted q&a, where we tackle these burning questions and more, leaving nothing on the table. Welcome to the wit's end waits podcast. I'm your host, Philip pape, and this twice a week podcast is dedicated to helping you achieve physical self mastery by getting stronger. Optimizing your nutrition and upgrading your body composition will uncover science backed strategies for movement, metabolism, muscle and mindset with a skeptical eye on the fitness industry so you can look and feel your absolute best. Let's dive right in.

Jeff Hoehn 00:53

Hey guys, welcome back to our second q&a cohosted episode so we have the mind muscle connection in the woods and week's podcast. Philip Pape is the host of the Whitson weights podcast and myself Jeff hain, the host of the mind muscle connection podcast. So yeah, this is the second one we did in the first one did great. So we want to tap back on here and get some q&a going. So excited to have you guys for this episode. If you aren't familiar with Philip, he is the host of the Whitson weights podcast. He has a wide range of coaches on and a few that you know if you listen to the mind muscle connection that you're familiar with Brandon Cruz, Brian Borstein, Jordan lips, among others. And and obviously I'm seeing guests that Phillip has on and having them on mine as well, too. He has multiple episodes per week going over all things nutrition, lifting, muscle metabolism and fat loss. So make sure you give his podcast a follow or subscribe. And again, I think Phil does a great job of breaking things down makes it very applicable for the everyday person, which I think is great. And not enough people do that. And sounds great. Everything looks awesome as well, too. So Phillip looking forward to doing this with you again, man. Yeah,

Philip Pape 01:51

Jeff, I'm really excited, man. I mean, last time, you know, we covered a lot of fun topics. And I think we'll do the same thing today. You mentioned the practical side of things. There's so much noise out there. There's also a lot of people that love to get into the science and we do that, but there's a certain limit to where you got to stop geeking out and start telling you what this means for me. And you probably see this with clients, sometimes they can overthink it, right? It's like, well, should it be 0.75 grams of fat per pound of protein right? And we try to distill it and make it simple. So for those of you listening to me now and Whitson weights Jeff ease the man I love his show, I follow up myself, the mind muscle connection, definitely follow it. If not, you are missing out. You know, he's a coach. He's got a ton of personal experience. He's not afraid to question the conventional wisdom. Like I was talking about to find what works. He's got solo episodes, got guest interviews, a lot of great names out there. And so after you're done with this episode, head over to mind muscle connection. Wherever you listen to podcasts, give it a follow. And I think we're ready to get into it, man.

Jeff Hoehn 02:47

Yep, absolutely. I think the last one, we I think it was right around an hour. I think we tackled them all in pretty good amount of time. But yeah, the last one was super fun. So that's why I was like, Hey, let's frickin do this again. And I think a lot of people found it super useful. I know. Like, I think you got good feedback from your audience. I got great feedback from my audience. And you know, everyone was kind of able to check out your podcast, hopefully, and everything like that. So yeah, let's, let's frickin get into it. Usually, when, when I do these with like Brandon and Jeremiah, you start asking Brandon questions. And the next thing you know, it's it's, we're like 45 minutes. And we haven't even answered a question. So yeah, the answer, right. Yeah. That's cool. Yeah. And I'm sure some stuff will come up about us a potential year with this. So cool. First question is what are your thoughts on rapid fat loss? And how can you repeat a very aggressive cut related to this? What do you think of protein sparing modified fasting in a five to diet fashion for the general population trying to lose weight? Yeah,

Philip Pape 03:38

so there's like three questions there. I think one is my thoughts on rapid fat loss. Another is how often can you do it. And then protein sparing modified fast, specifically as a five two, which is a little bit different than the original? Original one? So speaking of like, learning about what's going on with ourselves, right? I don't know if you are aware of this. But last year, I did a rapid fat loss protocol myself, and I recruited a bunch of people from my community to experiment with me, but two crazies who are like, Yeah, that sounds easy. And we did something inspired by Dr. Bill Campbell, who's a well known researcher, obviously, with aggressive dieting down at University of South Florida. And it was, it's pretty simple. It's four days in a very aggressive deficit, something like 40 45%, a low maintenance, and then a one day refeed, where you bring the carbs back up to maintenance, and then you repeat it once or twice. So if you do it twice, it ends up being about two weeks. And for a guy like me, 181 90, I might, I might lose like four pounds of fat doing it that way. The idea being that you keep the protein really high, at least one gram per pound, if not 1.2, or even a little bit higher. You keep training hard, and you're good to go. My thoughts on it are like any dieting approach, the more aggressive you go, the shorter the duration, right? Otherwise, you risk losing muscle. Also, I would put a bunch of caveats on this one, because people are like, you know, I'll have somebody reach me and say, I've got 20 pounds of weight to lose. I've never done any of this stuff. Should I do your Rapid Fat Loss Program? I'm like, no, no. Hey, let's get everything dialed in like you would before a fat loss phase anyway, but even more dialed in terms of your training, you're tracking your protein, like, keep it keeping the stress down all that good stuff in a good place, quiet time of the year, and then go after it really hard, and be consistent with that protein and making happen. And then yeah, you can lop off a couple pounds. If you have a lot of weight to lose, it's probably not the best approach from an adherence perspective anyway, because it's short. And now you're like, Well, what do I do after that? Do I just taper it down to a less aggressive cut? Maybe, but now you've already experienced like, all this adaptation and psychological pressure early on, you're not going to feel great? Or do you just punctuate building phases with this, or if you've already lost a bunch of weight, and you're fairly lean, use this occasionally. That's my thought on doing it in general. And then as far as repeating it, I wouldn't do it more than I wouldn't do it until you've come back to maintenance and fully recovered, and then do it again. But again, you shouldn't be doing them back to back the five to protein sparing modified fast from what I understand. And you may have a different kind of history on this, Jeff is the original diet was eat whatever you want for five days, and then have like, I don't know, 600 calories of protein for two days. And it's just another form of fasting, it's just another form of restriction that technically doesn't require you to track but at the end of the day, you could you could easily not lose weight, if you're just overeating on those five days, right? Like any other fast, it sounds miserable to me, but I get why you would want to do it, especially if you combine it with tracking. And now you're at maintenance for those five days. And then you go into the fast for two days. I know Brandon is doing something like that. So for the general population trying to lose weight, which was the question, I would say, do what works for you, and try traditional tracking and traditional, like, even if you want to cycle the calories, that's fine, but don't try to do anything too extreme? Because that could be what got you in trouble in the first place? I don't know. And I'll let you fill in the gaps. Because I know there's a lot of nuance to this one.

Jeff Hoehn 06:56

Yeah, I mean, this was something that I had seen the five two diet there with that. And after talking to Brandon, you know, I do think that there is some potential benefits of it. I was kind of thinking like, you know, from a lean body mass perspective, I could see how this could be beneficial. Because if you're doing those five days, which ideally, I'm assuming, we would ideally want you to be at probably close to maintenance, right? Like you said, you don't want to obviously overdo it. But the issue becomes like, Are you tracking during that? And if you don't track then do you end up kind of getting into a large surplus, right. But you know, if you're tracking and you're closer to your estimate of maintenance during that period of time, I really think that it could be great from a lean body mass perspective, just because you are going to be having so much time where you're giving your body plenty of energy, right. And then almost days that you're not, you're getting enough protein and and like you said, it's important that you lift weights in that process. So I could see how that could be beneficial from a lean body mass perspective. But I think you hit on this on both of these, it kind of comes down to the to me the challenge is the mental side of things, right? Like, is that something that you can stick to? And like you said, Does it just lead you to kind of this kind of yo yo approach, right? That would be something that I want to look out for, like, look out for the hunger on those really lower days, see how you respond to that, because some people, they can do those, like really low days, and they're good to go. But some people do those low days, and they're just like, ravenously hungry. And then like you said, it just leads to them over consuming, right. So I would really say like, that would be one that I would if I was working with a client, you know, this would have to be someone that's like I they've died in the past. And I know that they don't like that's not going to be a potential issue there. Because I do think that like having those lower calorie days, like if you're a busy person, like having those lower calorie days, a couple days a week could be super helpful as well to you know, from that standpoint, that's just like, I mean, shoot, like, if you had a day job where you just do like a bunch of podcasts or like client check ins and stuff, man, it would be nice to not have to worry about like eating sometimes right on like, and you could lighten up with those days. But again, you run into those potential issues there with that. So like you said, I think it is really individual. And I would probably lean towards, like from a general pop standpoint, probably not doing that at least for your first couple fat loss phases. And then, you know, kind of seeing how you respond to maybe some lower calorie days and then potentially bring that in there with that. So that's kind of my thought on the five to what I would say on the rapid fat loss. This was something that, you know, I was before I kind of talked to Bill Campbell about this, I was kind of wondering, like, what can you actually expect from a fat loss perspective in like a short timeframe, right, I was kind of questioning, like, can you really expect anything from it. And so from his studies from from what I took from it is, you know, you can't actually, you know, lose a decent amount in a few days. But obviously, you have to be super rigid with it, right? Like you have to really stay on top of the deficit and like it just runs back to the same issues that we just talked about, from the five to perspective, you know, are you prone to potentially overeating there with that and then like you said, again, the more weight you lose, the less you can do that. Right? The duration needs to be a lot shorter and obviously I think what you can run into is that can kind of be addicting of like seeing it go down super quick and then being like, Oh, I'm just gonna keep doing this right. And so that would be my biggest concern. And like you said, obviously once you really start to push that Are you losing some lean body mass in that process, but I do think that it can be motivating to see kind of those quick results. I haven't read it yet. But there's a new study on reps. And they were talking about, what are some patterns that are going to show that somebody's going to lose weight and like actually stick within one of it was like, one of them, the big ones was like kind of seeing that weight loss right off the bat there with it right it can be it can be motivating to see that. So that would be kind of a pro there of taking a quicker approach. But like you said, again, if you have a lot of weight to lose, that's probably not the way that you want to go there. But I am a huge fan of something I've become a more a bigger fan of is having these approaches where it does have some built in either extended diet breaks or days where you are a little bit higher maintenance, because I do think from a lean body mass perspective, it can be helpful, but but also a mental and flexibility side of things. I think they can also be helpful. So kind of my thoughts are on that. I don't know if there's anything I left out or anything like that.

Philip Pape 10:52

No, I mean, you hit on the there's always trade offs between physiology and psychology, right. And in psychology is the big one people underestimate, because they see these beautiful plans written out on paper. And, you know, even we experienced that you go into a new phase, and you're like, here's my plan, you know, it's like, it's gonna happen exactly like that, and it never does. And you have to be prepared for that. I do love like, for a more advanced person, like, like you said, Brandon, with the five, two, if you kind of know how your body responds and what you can tolerate, and also what your level of discipline and adherence is going to be. It's great. Also, if you're coaching somebody, sometimes I almost don't call that person Gen pop, because they have this extra direct support to kind of adapt to it. And then you know, kind of when you're often your own Gen pop is is where that comes in. But um, yeah, no, it's good stuff, man. Yeah,

Jeff Hoehn 11:35

no, I that's, that's a good point you bring up like having a coach to help you with it. Like having that like kind of extra set of eyes, man can really be super helpful. And that's a good point you bring up right, like, I would definitely feel more comfortable with that. I guess the last thing on this would be like either one of the things that you do, like, make sure you have some sort of game plan or plan afterwards. And again, this is where having a coach can be super helpful, because I think that's where you can really run into issues. I think, again, people can do these kind of short bursts of fat loss, but it's really comes down to what does that kind of period of time afterwards look like there with app? So

Philip Pape 12:06

yeah, man. So yeah, I think we answered the question there. We'll go on to the next one. That's good with you. Yeah. And that is for you, man. It's Do you think consuming more protein than what is recommended? Has any benefits? So

Jeff Hoehn 12:17

I'm assuming with this question, he means kind of that one gram ish per pound of body, we kind of like benefit there. Right?

Philip Pape 12:24

That's my guess. Beyond the normal our evidence base recommendation? Yeah. Yeah. So I

Jeff Hoehn 12:29

actually really liked this question. I had, like, a lot of thoughts that come. So I'm gonna go with some pros of it. And then I want to kind of go over some potential downsides of potentially going over that amount. So I think from a muscle building standpoint, right, so we're talking building muscle, I think once you get to that point eight to one gram per pound of body weight, maybe 1.2. I think if you go over that, you're not gonna see any more return on your investment from a muscle building standpoint, right. And again, this is under the assumption that you're you're training hard and pushing your training, right, because that's obviously the thing that's going to send that signal and then protein kind of completes that process, right. So I think from a muscle building standpoint, I don't think that you're going to get any more benefit from going too far over 1.2. Again, if you're really trying to maximize and trying to build as much muscle as possible, maybe you could, you might want to be on the safer side, and you could potentially go a little bit higher, but from my understanding of the research, you know, you're going to kind of Max us out at point eight to one gram per pound of body weight there. However, I do think there's some other benefits of potentially going higher than this one gram per pound of body weight. And again, that's a number we'll we'll kind of go for here. And I think the first one is satiety protein, in general is more satiating than other sources of you know, again, carbohydrates and fats. But I do think within that it does depend on your protein source, right? If you're eating 150 grams of protein through like protein powder, well, I do think that's going to bump that down a little bit, right. So I think your food selection for protein is super important. But generally speaking, protein is going to be more satiating than carbohydrates or fats, right. So I think that's the big one there. So if you're in a fat loss phase, you know, maybe you go over that one gram, 1.2 grams per pound of body weight to get a little bit more satiety out of it, the second benefit would be higher thermic effect of food. So protein uses the most energy to absorb and digest again, generally speaking here, so you could get a small benefit there from that, I think Jose Antonio had a bunch of studies where they did these like massive amounts of like protein, like I'm thinking we're talking like, three great, I don't know the exact numbers, but it was, it would be more than most people could actually do. And, you know, they found it actually did help with like, it was harder for them to gain body fat, right, because they had these higher protein amounts, but again, we're talking super high levels most I would not recommend that to anyone, I'm there with that. So again, a higher thermic effect of food, you could burn a little bit more calories, but it's just gonna be a small amount. Again, to be on the safe side from the muscle building standpoint, like again, if you really want to maximize it, you're a little worried about it, maybe you go a little bit higher than that. Again, the research kind of shows that it does max out on that around that one gram, and therefore to me you like it, like if you really like protein, and you enjoy those types of foods, by all means, you know, you can go higher than than this number. But with all these pros, there is some downsides I think to going over one gram per pound of body weight. So the first is you know, carbs fat and protein makeup calorie so at some point there has To be this give and take, if you're eating so such high protein, you know, this could take away from carbs and fats, right, your carbs could get super low, now it's going to impact your training, it's going to impact your recovery, right? Fat, same thing, you know those good to low. You know, fats are important from like a hormone standpoint. And we need, you know, a certain amount of essential fatty acids. So again, that can lower those things. If you're eating too high protein, I think to protein can for some people be harder to digest, you know, you may have when you get to these super high levels of protein, you may find that it kind of sits in your stomach, it's just a little bit harder to digest, right. So again, that would be a potential downside. And then, and then lastly, I think once you get over one gram 1.2, it's just tough to do and your diet is probably going to be a little less tasty overall, right? Because that means less carbs, and fats. But again, that could potentially be a good thing here on that. So I think, to kind of wrap this up, I think if you're in a fat loss phase, maybe you go a little above warrant, one gram per pound of body weight, if you're in a building phase, and you like protein, you find that you really don't want to gain, you want to limit fat gain, maybe you go a little bit higher protein, right. But again, from a muscle building standpoint, I think things get kind of maxed out around that point eight to one gram per pound of body weight gives you want to be on the safer side, and maybe go a little bit higher than that.

Philip Pape 16:08

Yeah, man might drop, you answered everything about that question. No, I don't want to I don't wanna make it too long, because you've covered like most of the points that I was going to mention, if they didn't come up, as far as the curve of when protein intake kind of maxes out, we know that there's a point of diminishing returns, and like you said, point eight, even point seven, I mean, the more they look at this, the more it's kind of angles down a little bit toward that point seven, where, you know, there's almost no benefits going to be of that, above that from a practical standpoint. So to the person asking the question, my question back to them is, why are you asking the question? Is it because you have a high protein diet that's much higher, in which case, I've had plenty of clients like that. Usually, they're bigger guys consuming Well, north of 3000 calories. And they're like, I love my meat, or I used to do carnivore or something like that. And it all works fine, because they have plenty of calories to work with fats and carbs aren't really being sacrificed, you know, what's the difference between 350 and four and 50 grams of carbs, right? So in that case, just keep eating the way you're eating, if you enjoy, and it works for you. And that's the second piece of this is, is it working for you? And do you want to experiment? Because if you're wondering if you're currently at the point eight, and you're like, what would happen to me if I'm at 1.2 1.3, especially during fat loss, that's where I see some benefit with some of this stuff, like you said satiety body composition, another Bill Campbell research, I think, I know he reviewed it about the impact of protein on body composition, even beyond what we already thought, just do it before and after and see how it works. Other than that, everything Jeff just said makes sense. There's no benefit intentionally of increasing your protein beyond the normal point seven to one gram per pound,

Jeff Hoehn 17:40

I think to like on that one thing that they kind of hit and I was kind of struck a chord with a few not struck a chord, this this resonated with few clients was like, people like, are super worried about getting enough protein one, I think, again, make sure your weight training is there, right? Because at the end of the day, like if that's not there, it's like protein, it isn't going to do anything if if you're not sending that signal to build muscle. So that's the first thing. Second is, you know, you're going from point three grams per pound of body weight 2.6 is that's going to have a massive impact on your like, the results you're going to see. But if you're going from like weight 7.8 to one gram, the return on that investment is going to be a little bit smaller. Right? So we need to think of it from from that standpoint, as well to like, where are you going from again, if you're one gram, and you're like, Oh, I really want to maximize to 1.2. It's like, again, the return on that investment is going to be a lot lower than if you were like, super low. And I think sometimes people you know, kind of overlook that, you know, when it comes to nutrition stuff and everything. They're always like, what's the most optimal? And so keep that in mind too. On there with that. Yep,

Philip Pape 18:38

totally agree on nothing to add to that.

Jeff Hoehn 18:40

So with with the protein, if you kind of like I guess the one thing that kind of changed my mind on it, too, was this kind of recent study where it was, you know, they they I think they had upwards of like, 100 grams, I think after, and they, their NPS, muscle protein synthesis was still elevate it, you know, hours after I kind of changed my mind a little bit on timing. I don't know if that changed it for you or anything that made me like, it's still important to me, but it made it maybe a little bit lower on the on the priority list. I don't know what your thoughts are on that. Yeah,

Philip Pape 19:07

if anything, it's not symmetrical anymore, meaning I used to recommend kind of a minimum but also make sure you distribute enough now I say like at least try to get the minimum in one meal. But there's not really an upper limit if you want to do it twice or three times in a day. Otherwise, it's a matter of practicality.

Jeff Hoehn 19:24

Yep. Right that that again, I feel like a lot of this stuff, man, as I learned more comes down to what's it what's really the practicality of it? So yeah, for sure. Cool. If you're good on on that one. I think we're good man. Awesome. So I'm a postmenopausal woman who has struggled with under eating for years due to a slow metabolism. Despite increasing my calorie intake, exercising regularly and having a high protein diet. I'm not seeing much progress on the scale, although I'm losing inches. How can I effectively lose fat and reveal muscle definition? Considering my unique circumstances and history?

Philip Pape 19:54

This is such a loaded question. I'm sure when you saw it, you thought the same thing. And I know you recently did an episode about It's probably not your hormones, right? It was something like that it's probably not your hormones. There's so much in here that I would want to first address before I even answer the question. For the person listening or really any women listening who are thinking these thoughts. The first one is the statement that I've been struggling with underwriting for years due to a slow metabolism. There's an assumption there that your metabolisms, quote unquote, slow. And it could just be, you know, in an adapted state, because you've been under eating. Okay, fair enough. Maybe you haven't been training, maybe you haven't been preserving muscle, whatever, you know, we don't want to assume your metabolism slow it is what it is. And we'd want to do what's necessary to recover and and see where it's the current setpoint is for that. But then she said, despite increasing calories, exercising regularly and having a high protein diet, so Okay, those are good things, right, like getting enough energy, exercising, I'm hoping she means training, we don't know for sure. And then having a high protein diet, I'm not seeing much progress on the scale, but I'm losing inches right there. I'd say that's a win. Like, that's a huge one right there to where, okay, why are we obsessed with the scale? What is it in your history or relationship with scale weight that causes you to think that this is a problem, right? I'm losing inches? And then she said, How can I effectively lose fat and reveal my muscle? Consider my unique circumstances in history? And so again, I would say, I mean, we're all unique, but we're also not unique, right? Like, you know, we all lose muscle mass with age, if we don't train, you know, for women hormones tend to decline or impaired post menopause, but lifestyle changes can massively mitigate those. So I do want to acknowledge the challenges that this person and all women face, we had a similar question like this in our last q&a, and you know, we're under eating for a long time, that definitely slows things down. But we don't want to attribute changes to menopause itself, necessarily, or fat storage or anything like that. The fact that you're losing inches, you're training, you know, you got protein already tells me you're doing a lot of the right things, right. So acknowledge that from a mindset perspective, that that's a huge win. And you're experiencing some sort of body recomp. Right. And again, just begun, body recomp. Here, if the scale staying the same, and your interests are going down, and you're getting stronger, that's all good. So I mean, really, to simplify it here is to keep progressing. It's finding the right, you know, approach for you. In terms of, if you want to have fat loss, let's let's find a moderate rate of loss. Let's make sure we're tracking, let's make sure like in the last question, you're getting at least that reasonable amount of protein, and then be patient and consistent as we work on that. And if the goal at the end of the day is to get a lower scale, wait, I would want to rewind and say what is your true reason here? What is your value based reason for this? It's okay to have short term motivations, physique, motivations, looking good in the mirror. I do that every day with clients and like, but that only take you you know, from here to here, how do we how do we make this a lifestyle for a life that works for you? So yeah, I mean, the basics, Jeff, are going to be what we recommend to everybody. Besides then getting bloodwork and things like that check if we do think there's some sort of hormonal issue. So I'll set it up that way. I'll let you go. And then we'll back and forth on this. Yeah, man. No,

Jeff Hoehn 22:56

you definitely nailed that. Right. I actually just did a q&a episode from a question I had somebody asked about fast and slow metabolism. So I dove into that. So definitely would lead people to that episode, I think it should be out like June 10. Ish, maybe something like that. But yeah, people, you know, like you said, we all kind of think we have a slow metabolism. But I think a lot of times, it is kind of the things that we're doing that actually lead to that, right. And again, maybe yours is a little bit slower, and whatnot. But again, I always like to look at like, what are you actually doing? You know, and usually, you know, if you look this over, it's like, okay, well, you can obviously improve this, you can improve that right, you know, before saying you actually have a slow metabolism. So I agree with you there on that. And like you said, we don't want to think that this is any special circumstance or anything like that, like all women go through menopause during that period of time, right? And then like you said, this is why we're coaches, right? Like people have these these issues all the time where they they they don't, they aren't seeing the results that they think they should so kind of like you said, you know, we obviously want to respect that like, hey, you know, every, everyone is unique and has different circumstances. But you know, these are pretty common things. Right. And usually, we think that it's just something with us, and then with that, but I had a few things I wanted to go over. So, you know, like, again, are you are you tracking the right metrics? Because kind of like you said, there, it's like not seeing progress on a scale, but you're losing inches. So it's like, to me, again, what's like you said with the scale? Like, do we really need to just focus on that, like, if you're losing inches, especially in your midsection, that's like you said, you're seeing progress. So is it more like, are you more concerned with weight? Are you more concerned with like, the aesthetic side of things? Because that's obviously going to be, you know, something you'd want to look into? There's that most people they don't, they end up not caring as much about the skills they think, right? But I also like, you know, within tracking the right metrics, are you you know, are you tracking your weight the correct way as well to you know, I'm sure you see this where people say they're not dropping weight, but then you look and you're like, your average weight literally is trending down and week over week, what are you talking about, but they get too caught up and like, one day, it's lower, and then it's a little bit higher, but again, they don't look at the trends. So, you know, make sure you're tracking the right metrics. It's easy to think you're not going in the right direction. I also find that a lot of times in this situation, people aren't tracking as much as they could, right. It's like, well, I'm eating I'm eating healthier. I'm making and better choices and scales not moving. But then again, they're not tracking consistently with the scale, they're not tracking, you know. So get make sure you're doing that. I would imagine if they asked you this question, they probably track their calories and stuff like that. But I also would want to know, like, what's your like? What's the diet dieting history as well, too, you know, like you said, you increase your caloric intake. But how long did you do that? What did you get it to? You know, what happened during that period of time? What, what is your current body weight? Because I think also that goes into expectations. You know, if you're 115 pounds, you know, we kind of need to reframe those expectations, versus if you're, you know, 175, like that weight loss is going to look a little bit different. So what's your current body weight? You know, what is your exercise look like? Because like you said, you know, we hope hopefully, you're, you're lifting weights. But are you consistent with that. So those would be things that I would kind of check there with that, but just some other things like to potentially look out for, like Phillip said, Lift, you know, protein, I think for this, demographics, especially, I think making sure that you don't go too long without protein after your workout. This is a kind of demographic, I think protein timing is maybe a little bit more important. So if you exercise, you make sure you're getting protein. You know, if you especially if you go in fast it you're getting it relatively soon after sleep is going to be another big one for this, Adrienne, because, you know, menopause can sometimes lead to lower quality sleep, you know, people waking up in the middle night, hot flashes, stuff like that. So I think there's a lot of things that people overlook when it comes to sleep. This isn't gonna asleep question, but man, we could probably dive into that as a whole topic in terms of some like low hanging fruit sleep hygiene tips there. But again, making sure you know, sleep is good, right? You're, you're prioritizing it, that's going to be a big one, that's really going to make things a lot tougher, you're doing the right thing here. But make sure you are taking some time away from fat loss dieting, to fuel your body, we're not just increasing calories for the sake of increasing the goal is to feel your body, you know, make sure you give it the nutrients and calories you need. And again, make sure you're doing that for a good amount of time, right? You're doing it for two weeks, and then you know, kind of just winging it, that's not going to be enough. Like you really do want to kind of stick that a little bit longer. I also wondered, I think you kind of mentioned this to like, could you have some maybe better fat loss methods? Like, are you trying to lose super quick? Like, can you could you improve that aspect of it like making sure you get enough protein, you're using more at a moderate rate versus feeling like you need to get off two pounds per week, right? With that. And then yeah, those those would be kind of the main ones that I would look at, in this specific example here with that, actually, sorry, there was one more thing I wanted to go over here on this, I want to go over some like potential supplements that I see that this kind of demographic misses out on get we know supplements are lower on the priority list, these things here are going to be your most important but a few that I see that are important for this demographic is vitamin D, make sure you're at least taking a nice maintenance dosage, you know, you can look at your bloodwork to see where that's at fish oils, another big one, I like legions, fish oil has the right amount of EPA and DHA there with that magnesium glycinate could be a good one, especially if you're waking up with hot flashes, Glycine can be helpful. So magnesium glycinate, and then creatine, and this is the demographic that kind of shiz away from creatine because it's kind of known as like a kind of like steroids. Oh, they're gonna make me super bulky. But for this demographic, I think creatine is super important, maybe more so than, you know, say, your 25 year old male who's trying to build muscle. So just some things there for you to focus on potentially, yeah,

Philip Pape 28:05

no, I mean, it's really the, you know, fat loss one on one episode, like, we just need to give that to most most women, regardless of the hormone state, and that'll get you most of the way there. But I didn't want to let the cat out of the bag on this, I eventually message back with this person. And one thing you mentioned was, is she actually potentially losing weight and look like she was very, very slowly trending downward in reality. And also, she wasn't really tracking in an effective way that linked her intake to her metabolism. So she's doing that now. I just want to I didn't want to bias the discussion. But you know, it's those kinds of things that are the basics. And then yeah, I love I love the idea of supplements and nutrients. I'm really getting a lot more into micronutrients these days, yes, especially for women with like thyroid issues and whatnot, you know, just even from a food perspective of trying to hunt, hunt around and figure out which foods give you these nutrients, because you may just be neglecting an entire nutrient like Selenium. Right? or what have you. The sleeping stress, I totally didn't even mention that. But like you said, that could actually be the deal breaker for a lot of women at that age with the life stress, the obligations, the kids and all of that. But yeah, I mean, it's checking all the boxes, and then going into a reasonable rate of loss, not overdoing it. If your metabolism is kind of lower. Now, because you haven't built a lot of muscle mass yet, you're not gonna be able to go in this huge deficit, because you're gonna be eating just like 800 calories. So you're gonna have to be patient and kind of go down a little bit and then continue to build that muscle which this person said she's already getting body recomp. So like, I think it's a great start.

Jeff Hoehn 29:26

There's two things that you said there that I want to point out. The first is the micronutrients. So with that, you know, and this is where like being low calorie can catch up to you is you know, you're you're more likely to have holes in that right so this is where again, this is why I said like, time away from fat loss time to fuel your body and this is exactly why because the higher you're not like you need to eat 4000 calories and gain a ton of weight. But you know, the more calories you have, the more you can, you know, kind of fill those holes there with with that, and then on the slow sort of weight loss side of things. I know we just talked about rapid fat loss, but again, we kind of talked how that's like a certain demographic that will really work well with you know, with kind To my content, like I've tried to reframe this lower weight, especially for this demographic, this soul weight loss is almost a pro because if anything, you're, and this is probably gonna go into our next question here, but you're kind of putting yourself in a decent, really good position to maintain it even potentially build some muscle in this process. And, again, that's the, for this demographic specifically, that's going to be super helpful for your long term health. Right. Um, because, again, I feel like a lot of people in this demographic, they really just focus on the weight loss side of things. And that leads to them doing things that lead to lean body mass loss. And we already talked about the importance of that and not to mention bone health and everything like that. So I think if anything, kind of reframing that, for this specific example, where you said she actually was trending down, even though it was slower, I would say that honestly, is perfect. And that is kind of what I would that's kind of what I would be wanting to go for anyways here because I think you're gonna put yourself in the best position long term with that. So yeah,

Philip Pape 30:49

as with it is within that like cone of body recap, like we think about a recomp it's just maintenance. But can you talk about this all the time, you can recomp at different levels of surplus or deficit, and even considered over the long term. So, yeah, good. Keep it up. Whoever sent in the question, you know, like a lot of good things going for you and let us know, you know, one or two things that you decide to change based on this conversation. Just understand

Jeff Hoehn 31:09

that, hey, we know this is a challenging time to like, it's not to just like brush out under the rug and be like, Oh, it's super easy. You just got to do everything. You know, we understand, hey, this is a challenging time. And, you know, there things are a little bit different now. So you do need to work with your body. So you definitely don't want to underestimate the impact of that. So,

Philip Pape 31:25

yeah, we're a blend of tough love and real love going on here. Like we get it. You know, we're not the we're not the 20 year old even though Jeff's 10 years younger than me. He's not a 20 year old guy with a lot of experience.

Jeff Hoehn 31:38

Okay, just work harder. Come on. I don't care if you have three kids, and you're in menopause just frickin work harder. Exactly.

Philip Pape 31:43

Yeah, seven days a week. All right.

31:46

Hi, my name is Alan. And I just want to give a shout out to Philip Pape of wits and weights for being a huge part of the foundation for my continued health and well being. Philip exemplifies a nutrition coach who demonstrates how much he cares. Phillip works tirelessly, and with dedication to provide coaching support and major content for us to use. He creates a practical approach from research. And Phillip empowers all of us to use food as quality for our health. He is skilled in how to assess and direct nutrition. Phillip creates a community full of wisdom, support and camaraderie. In summary, Philip Pape is the real deal. He knows how to assess and direct nutrition. And he continues to steer me in the right direction. Thank you, Phil.

Philip Pape 32:38

All right. I'll ask you the next question. We're ready to move on. Yep. All right. So classic question, How feasible is it to build muscle in a deficit?

Jeff Hoehn 32:46

This is right up my alley African love this one. So my big thing with this is, I'll still get kind of like messages. And like when I'll talk about this to people being like, oh, you know, it's typically the same kind of type of person, right? Usually somebody who has a lot of muscle and they are like, kind of bodybuilder, right? It's like, No, there's no way you can build muscle in a deficit, you know, if anything, you're lucky to maintain anything and whatnot. And so I hear that, and it's like, okay, yes, you are right. And but in certain situations, right, we need to we need to go a layer deeper than this. And it's really depends on the individual context. Yes, in that specific person. example, let's say you're a bodybuilder. You're, you're super shredded. You have a lot of muscle. Yeah, for you, you know, you're not gonna be able to build muscle in the deficit. But what you know, Phillip, I don't know about you. But yeah, maybe for us, it seems like that's a little bit bigger for the population. But in general, how big of the population? Is that? Honestly, like, if you were to take the entire

Philip Pape 33:34

world? Like, yeah, like 5%, right? or less?

Jeff Hoehn 33:38

I would say even less like out of the entire population, I would say it's 99.9% of people are not that person, right? If we take the entire population, now we get into, like, people who work out, okay, it starts to Oh, I

Philip Pape 33:47

see what you're saying. Yeah. Because if you take just the percentage of people even do anything we talked about here, you're already down to like 5%. So fair point.

Jeff Hoehn 33:53

So if you see one of the people that that we're probably talking to, okay, it's probably closer, like you said, 5% or so. But anyway, so 5% and 5%. Exit, right? You know, I think that we need to be careful with saying that because it leads to people thinking that it's them, and we need to dive in a little bit more to it. Right. So again, it is very individual. So I would kind of want to go over specific scenarios here, right? And things that are going to matter here. So can you build muscle in a deficit? So this is going to depend on your current body composition, okay? If you're somebody who has a ton of muscle, really low levels of body fat, you're not going to be able to build muscle in a deficit, right? Like, but in saying that it also is dependent on the size of the deficit. Okay, so the size of the deficit is going to matter. So people kind of think of a calorie deficit, as you know, oh, it's just a calorie deficit. Well, you know, there's a size to this deficit, right, the larger the deficit is, so the quicker you lose weight, the less likely this is to happen, right? You're not putting your body in the best position to build muscle. So you take somebody who's super shredded, has a lot of muscle and you put them in a large deficit will, you know for them, they're going to have to really do everything to maintain their muscle, they may even lose muscle in that process. But even that person they just talked about during the smaller calorie deficit, they're still probably not going to be able to build muscle but now Do you take somebody who is over, let's say, for men over 15% body fat, decent amount of muscle, women, let's say 25% body fat, decent amount of muscle for them, they're going to be able to build some muscle in the deficit, so long as all the things we talked about are in check. And that deficit is not too large, because even within that particular person, the larger that deficit gets, the less likely this is to happen, right. So again, we need to look at like training history, but that's gonna go into how much muscle you have other factors outside of the gym. So obviously, the less these are dialed in, the worse sleep is, the higher your stress is, the worse your diet quality is, the lower the likelihood of this is going to happen in a deficit, right? So we need to look at that, again, what your training looks like, if your training isn't super specific to building muscle. Again, this is going to be tougher, right? If you're somebody who does like a ton of group classes, maybe your training is geared more towards, like powerlifting style, I think you're going to have a tougher time building muscle and a deficit, right. But you know, somebody who's had a long layoff and coming back from an injury like you, the likelihood of this happening is going to be a little bit higher than so that's kind of my like, how feasible that is. Now, what I want to talk about here is, again, people hear this and they think, Okay, well, so I can build muscle and deficit now being in a deficit, no matter what is still going to be less, there's going to be inferior to being at maintenance for building muscle. Okay, no, wait, no way you put it right. Even if you're this perfect person that I talked about, like you're perfect for recon, you can build muscle and deficit, it's still you're gonna probably see a little less muscle in a deficit compared to maintenance. But even from there, you go to maintenance, right, you can still build a decent amount of muscle maintenance. But even then, like, if you're at a surplus is still going to be even a little bit better for building muscle. Right. So it's kind of on the stepladder here. So you really just need to decide like, if you're someone who's going to try to maximize muscle as much as possible, well, at some point, you're probably going to have to be in a calorie surplus, I don't think you need to go into that right away. But at some point, you're going to need to be in a in a calorie surplus there if that. So I kind of like to look at these as levels to and understand that again, you know, if you're someone who can build muscle and deficit, the longer you do that, the likelihood of it the the amount of muscle you're gonna see is going to trend down over time there. So I think I kind of hit on everything I wanted to there. I don't know if there was any follow ups or things you wanted to add? Yeah,

Philip Pape 37:08

no, that's a great foundation. I agree with all of that. I think the research has looked at various deficits. And I think 500 calories has been that limit of being a calorie deficit, where we start to see muscle loss in most populations, regardless, even even untrained. And I know they've done studies with trained lifters who have like three, four or five years of experience, on short durations, you know, these studies usually like six or eight weeks long, with a calorie deficit, and they still see muscle gain. So we know it can happen. And like you said, you're not the special snowflake, I shouldn't use that term that can be triggering, but like, super advanced train, like, yeah, they're not that many people in that that realm. There are a couple other demographics. I don't know if you mentioned them, one, one is of somebody who has excessive weight to lose. So I've had clients who are usually male clients are like 262 75, nine, and they want to get down to close to that 200 mark, and their body has so much fat storage, that that is like putting them in a surplus while they're in a deficit. Yep. And so they build a ton of muscle has their recopying. And everything's actually kind of smooth. If you've got it set it up, right, for a lot of a lot of people, especially especially males that I've worked with. The other situation is if you're D trained, right, again, I've seen that as well, some guy that did what I didn't do when I was a teenager in my 20s and actually worked out and hit the weights because I didn't do I didn't know this stuff until my late 30s. And they you know, they showed me pictures of how they were jacked when they were 22. And now they're the dad bod and you know, overweight and they're like I ride my bike. That's all I do. Okay, let's get you back lifting weights and then all of a sudden, their bodies like it just like sucks up the protein and just pack some muscle back on. And and there's a biological reason for that having to do with like satellite cells and neurons and stuff having already been built or developed and grown when you're earlier and they're always there waiting to get bigger again. So that population can probably hack their way to you know, somebody recomp and then i The one thing I want to ask you about Jeff is you said powerlifting style, I'm assuming you meaning during fat loss if you use in powerlifting style, because there's not very much volume or stimulus compared to like a bodybuilding style. And I wonder if you could explain that a little bit because my understanding is pretty much any auto regulated form of training where you can train hard close to failure, with sufficient volume is gonna give you what you need. Is the premise here that you're doing like squats once a week for one RMS and no back offs and no other volume, no accessory work that kind of stuff. Yeah,

Jeff Hoehn 39:27

pretty much yeah, like you're just doing like the main lifts you're literally just working in like the like one to three rep range, right? Again, is that gonna like again, I don't people will say this is the same thing as like the maintenance like building muscle and maintenance. It's like okay, that doesn't mean you're not going to build any muscle but like say you're in a deficit and like you know, you're trying to build muscle lose body fat the same time, you're just going to be it's not going to be as specific to building muscle is I would like it to be but again, if you're okay with that trade off, like understanding Hey, I'm probably gonna leave a little bit of muscle growth on the table for this. Okay, you know, it is what it is right? It just comes down to trade offs. So yes, it's just It comes down to the specificity of of the training, right that like you said, it's just not enough, it's gonna end up not being enough volume, you know that one to three rep range isn't necessarily the greatest for building muscle. It's a, you know, in in whatnot. So that's really what it comes down to. This is what I this is kind of something that I've changed my mind on, because I've always kind of talked about like, well, you need to have your training specific hypertrophy. And what I tell people is you probably want to have like, if you're really trying to maximize body recomp, and again, trying to build some muscle in the deficit, if you're under the circumstance, situation, or situations is, I would say you want at least 50% of your training to be geared towards hypertrophy. Right? So if you want to do with a thing, where it's like a power building style, again, is that going to be the most effective? From a muscle building standpoint? No, but it's still going to be good enough to build muscle, right, so long as 50% of its hypertrophy, you like to do group classes, again, maybe 50% of its group classes, but I want at least 50% at training to be geared towards, you know, building muscle there with that,

Philip Pape 40:55

I can attest, I can attest to that. I totally agree. That's why I wanted to clarify for the listeners, so they knew what you meant, because at least a lot of people I know who do the power building style, or they do West Side style or whatever. They do their main lifts, and they might be auto regulating like back offs and stuff like that. But then they're also adding all this. What did they call it? In West Side? The extra accessory work, man, I'm losing the losing the phrase what it's called? Not the accommodating resistance, but when you just repetition work, I don't know. But there's that. And then also, what was the other thing I was gonna say I'm losing my mind. Oh, yeah. Like, I've also seen like basic barbell type training work during fat loss, if if it's like set progression. So for example, we talked about increasing weights or reps at for progressive overload. And we rarely talk about adding sets. But there are some, you know, modulating programs where you start like, three sets, then four, then five, and six, and you actually end up being able to push that volume during fat loss while you're not really able to get stronger. But as a result, you're getting the stimulus. And if you're in this, like sweet spot deficit for recomp, you might get it under those scenarios, as well. Yeah,

Jeff Hoehn 41:59

yep. No, 100%. Man, no, that's, and like you said, the population you talked about, like, that's the perfect scenario where it's like, they're like, Well, you know, do I need to gain muscle? You know, I don't want to gain weight right now. Because I want to lose, but it's like, you're literally the higher your body fat is, like you said, the higher the likelihood is of a recap, because that's like stored energy. And on the flip side, real quick, I want to hit on this too. On the on the flip side, I think the other where I see this also kind of get where there's kind of thought process of like, Oh, hey, you have to be in a surplus, or hey, you have to be in a, you know, these kinds of things. And that kind of diving layer deeper. When it comes to a surplus where I see this kind of misapplied is somebody that you said there that, you know, maybe is like, say 15 20%, or higher and body fat for women 25 30% or higher, and they they feel like they can't build muscle, like they have to, like, Well, I'm not gonna go into building phase or I got to do fat loss until I drop all this weight is, you know, then they are they go into it, and they try to get in a surplus, they think that they need to start plus, well, now they start to gain a little bit more body fat than they need. And then it's like, well, these these phases don't work. Right. I just I didn't see any of that. But it's because you went into a surplus when you probably had some wiggle room here to be at maintenance or like in a small deficit or in deficit before going into that. So it's kind of like the flip side of that on there with apps? Oh, yeah, yeah, no,

Philip Pape 43:14

I think we covered it, it's possible, it's possible for a lot of people, and you just have to make the trade offs that you want to make, if you want all out muscle, probably don't want to be, you know, dicking around in these, like subtle phases just go after one direction or another. And that's my opinion. At some point. Yeah, no, but but then there's the lifestyle and the psychology, you know, it all comes into play. And it's like, if it's a woman who's 45, she's not happy with her body. And I'm like, I'm not going to tell her to sit around and like, continue to add weight or gain fat, let's just, you know, make that little bit of a trade off. So we get you some quick wins, like we talked about before, but then long term, I'll get you more convinced into like building. I

Jeff Hoehn 43:49

like your that's a that's actually a great way to put it. dicking around. That's honestly, I need to start using that a little bit more.

Philip Pape 43:55

Is that like an old guy term? I don't know.

Jeff Hoehn 43:58

I just never, I just never thought about saying it that way before where like, if you're, you know, trying to lose body fat build muscle the same time for too long. That's basically what you're doing. You're just kind of dicking around at that point. So I love that I need to start using that more.

Philip Pape 44:11

All right. All right. So speaking of old guys, actually, I think you're asking me this. I'll pull up the caption here.

Jeff Hoehn 44:16

Yep. heavier weight or more reps for an older guy looking to build a base for longevity.

Philip Pape 44:20

For longevity? Yeah, what are the longevity experts here right now? Yep. The answer is yes. No. Yes, train and you're good. So interestingly, I just recorded an episode for over 50 Guys, and it was in response to a follower who said, Hey, you should cover this stuff. And I had just recently listened to an episode of RP Right with Dr. Dre telling he was talking about old guys as well. And my thoughts on this are like, if you're asking the question, maybe you already have a little bit of experience training and you're just trying to kind of optimize your programming. I think the power building style like you mentioned before, something like where you have the big lifts, you have something That's focus on function and strength, like specifically strength, which is tends to be down in the heavier rep range is super, super helpful for older folks. And sometimes people people are, it's counterintuitive, like older folks say, Well, no, my connective tissue, my joints, my knees, blah, blah, blah, it's too heavy. It's bad for recovery. I disagree. Like, I think compound lifts are what you want as when you're older. I've seen older folks who never lifted before in their 50s 60s 70s have tremendous improvement in their health and function. And guess what we need for longevity, we need to be able to, like get off the toilet, but also be able to move our body around, avoid, you know, breaking bones, when we we fall, falling is like the leading cause of death besides heart disease, you know, at that age, the all the things associate with metabolic disease are also tied to muscle and strength. So like, yes, in other words, like, I think you should have a little both, I think you should lift heavy. And I think you should also have fun with it and work on building muscle where it makes sense. And then principle of it for older individuals is the recovery aspect, right? Like, you probably need to ease into it a little bit, when you get started, you probably need more recovery time, you may need to stretch some parts of your body that are like, you know, those are the wonky parts like guys, our shoulders, you know, our low back. And then don't be stupid, because you only have so much time like not till you die, but you only have so much time your body takes longer to recover. So like you don't want to get injured and then now spend months and months trying to come back from it always be behind. So I feel really strongly about it. Because I have parents and I have in laws and people that are that are older. And we got to stop making excuses. And I want to see this this generation, my generation become like the first generation that ages well, like ages into their 80s and 90s. That don't look like old people. We don't think of old people as like frail bent over weak, right? We are strong, we're independent, we're able to help other people. We're not like, you know, mooching off of health care, right, all that stuff. And I think that's the way to do it. So I know, I became very philosophical, Jeff, because I'm, like passionate about it. But the answer is yes. Both.

Jeff Hoehn 47:00

Yeah. No, I'm glad you took it for I'm glad you took it from that standpoint, because I'm going to take it from a little bit different. But I think you you make up you bring up great points, right, the recovery aspect of it a little bit slower at that point. And no, I think you, I like that you came at it from that angle? Because and I think this is the cool thing about us doing this is we kind of both come at it from from different. So like, basically my answer to you, though, or what your answer is? My short answer is yeah, I mean, like, why do we why would you need to choose one or the other? You know, I mean, like, that's kind of my thought. But I want again, as with most questions, I always kind of want to go a layer deeper. So I think it does, I did say depends on your goal. He said longevity? So but I would want it like what is that kind of look like? You know, again, is it straight? You know, like? So again, I think both is is there's that but but also, this is where I think people maybe miss out on from this is what's your preference? Like? What do you enjoy doing? You know, because at the end of the day, like we could sit you and I could sit here and we can talk about Well, hey, if you do this perfect combination of higher lower, you know, that's gonna be great. But also like, you just doing something is going to be better as you age as well to write to like, what is your preference to? And, you know, again, a lot of people I don't think are, I don't think they aren't as up to date on the research as we are with us. And we know that there can be a nice little range here that you can work with. So I think really, preference is a big one, right? Like, what's going to keep you staying consistent. And I think when it comes to strength hypertrophy, I feel like people ask these really nerdy questions, which I think are great, and it's fun to dive into it. But really what is going to keep you doing these things over extended periods of time. And if you buy us a little bit more towards heavier weight, and that feels good your current cover, you're seeing the results you want. Maybe you bias a little bit more to that if you are somebody you like more reps that feels better for you, you can recover from it, you're seeing the results you want to see, well, then maybe you buy us a little bit more of that on their fat. But from there, I also, again, I think this question needs to come at, like we need to look at a few more things. So exercise selection, what does that look like for you, you know what I mean? Like, you know, if you're doing some lateral raises or bicep curls will for you, I'm probably going to say hey, you probably want to go maybe a little bit higher reps. If you're doing back squats, you know, maybe you're gonna go a little bit lower reps versus doing you know, 15 reps on there if that so I think exercise selection is is key to what exercises are We are We specifically looking at here, I

Philip Pape 49:06

want to ask you about that. What about including exercises at all? Like what if this is the kind of person because I've seen them where it's like, they just want to do the isolation stuff. You know, what are your thoughts on that? Like? Yeah, should you have compound lifts? Or is this like what are your thoughts? Yeah, I'm, I'm pigeonholing you, man,

Jeff Hoehn 49:22

you're good. No, you're good. I love this. I mean I think preference again it's going to come down to preference right because I think you still do and more isolation stuff is gonna be better than you feel like you have to like you said kind of pigeonhole or put yourself into a box with it. So but I also feel like this comes down again to like, what do you consider compound right? Are we saying you do need to do like barbell stuff is are you counting leg presses a compound? You

Philip Pape 49:45

know what I mean? Like, sure, multi joint movements. Yeah, right. Yeah.

Jeff Hoehn 49:48

Yeah. You know, what does that kind of look like? Because I think sometimes that can get lumped into that more more isolation. You know, I would like to have if it was up to me, again, I would like to have somebody incorporate some, you know, things like Press squats, you know, those bigger lifts? Like I think that's a good base. But again, if it doesn't feel good for somebody, and they're more likely to want to stick to more isolation type stuff, leg extension leg curl, like, what would be a good isolated, I guess a laundry? I don't know. And they like doing that that's going to keep them going with it, then then that's the route, you know, we're going to go but I'd like to have a nice little Blend If it was ultimately up to me, you know, there with that. Did that answer your question there on that? Oh, yeah.

Philip Pape 50:25

No, I just put it out there. Because it depends on the context. Always Right. Like you said, if the alternative is not doing anything, and maybe for someone who's an older population today, that is the default right? Then then obviously, we want to take them from there to there to there. The other way we could approach the question is like, oh, this person already trains now they want the best out of it for longevity? What would that be? You know?

Jeff Hoehn 50:47

Yep, yep. And I think a good blend, for sure. But this also comes down to like, for example, I think it goes too far on the other end, where people try to, like you said pigeonhole them into like doing like, say, back squats or something, right, where they think they need to do these these, like compound barbell type lifts. And it's like, you know, we have some flexibility there. Right? So, you know, again, I think we could we could go too far on the other end. But another big thing here with this, too, is your execution and technique. I mean, what does that look like? You know, and I think that's going to be big, like, we need to make sure that's in a good spot before being like, what rep range do I need to work in? Or what's better for me, like, I think your execution and technique is, is super important in that process, as well. So I think, really, we need to come at it from like, stop looking at it from an either or I think both can work. What's your preference? What's your exercise selection? What do you like? What's your execution and technique? And then from there, what are your results? And are you happy with them? Are you not? And then and then from there, we evaluate and see, you know, can we make some some changes to that? But yeah, kind of my thoughts on that.

Philip Pape 51:46

Yeah. And I guess the other approach for longevity, because he also didn't, you know, longevity, could be I want to live a long life. But it could also be you can keep lifting for a long time, right? That's exactly that sort of the recovery. And I know from personal experience, and guys all the time, who just my shoulders a little sore, but I kept pushing and kept pushing, and bam, you know, the rotator cuff surgery or whatever. And now you're knocked out for six months to a year. So always keep those in mind of overall health overall function. And even when you're doing isolation work, you can, you can overdo it, if you're like constantly trained to absolute failure, and your volume is just tremendously high. And then you don't sleep like all of these compound plus diet, we didn't have to get it into nutrition, because he didn't ask about it. But of course, it supports all of this well. And

Jeff Hoehn 52:28

then and then in that specific example, this is where again, your execution and technique comes into, right. If you're you know, the more you do that with poor technique, the more that's going to, you know, so again, that's why I think it's important. And I don't know about you, but generally, I feel like when we go to these heavier, heavier weights, that's where you will start to see, especially for men, right, you start to see the ego take over a little bit. And that's where you do see execution and technique suffer a little bit. So you do want to be careful there with that that would be one kind of final thing with that. So

Philip Pape 52:57

And one final final thing, because we all have to get the last word going. Yep. Because you mentioned men, and I'm thinking women, a lot of women I've been I've gotten as clients, right, they, they tend to be doing the higher rep stuff anyway. And then they've explained it, they've said that they don't like going to the gym, or it's too much work or whatever. There's kind of a psychology to reps where everybody has a different sweet spot, right? And you could be working 20, RetinA 20 rep range for everything. And that could just be torture, like psychological torture for somebody. And all of a sudden, you know, you get somebody squatting, or RDL, or whatever, down in the five rep range or six rep range. And it's way lower than ever gotten like, This is amazing. I only have to, you know, each set is shorter, and I can always rest time. There's a big psychological aspect to it as well, that factors into sustainability and longevity to

Jeff Hoehn 53:44

this brings up one more thing.

Philip Pape 53:45

Yeah, let's

Jeff Hoehn 53:46

do what you have been doing, I think also should play a role in this right? I didn't even think of that. Right? Like if you are if you have found yourself to maybe bias one or the like one or the other. Maybe you need to get a little bit more of the other one in there. Right. So sorry, I just had I had to get the final word. Do you have the final final final word?

Philip Pape 54:05

No, that's yeah, I'm gonna go to the next question. I think we answered it. This is a fun little one about tracking in fat loss. So fat loss specifically, although it doesn't, I don't think it matters. Does counting veggies affect the macros and should I log them?

Jeff Hoehn 54:19

Yep. So 100% I mean, it's it's calories, right? veggies are gonna be calorie. So it will impact the macros, right? But I want to kind of, there's a lot of things that we can kind of uncover here with the width. So my thoughts on this, like, I'll have a lot of clients that you know, whether it maybe they're newer or again, maybe they're in a different phase where the on their checkout form, they'll be like, Well, hey, I'm having some, you know, my nutrition adherence was a three, I'm having a lot of like, either either meals out or hey, I had some like bites and licks and stuff like that. Well, my thought on this always is like, Well, where are your results at if things are trending in the right direction, and you know, I look at your food log and you're eating relatively well and maybe you're having some bites and licks or some tasty stuff from time to time and things are trending down in the right direction. It's like Let's keep going, like you're seeing the results you want. So why change it? So my thought on this is like, you know, if you're somebody that hasn't been tracking them, you're seeing things head in the right direction, you don't necessarily have to do it, right. Like, if you're really looking into your Mac micronutrients and stuff like that, like, you know, maybe like, obviously, veggies are going to be high on that. So maybe you do want to look at that, right. So that's kind of my thoughts on that. But then also, within that, you know, I feel like, it depends too on, you know, looking at it from the standpoint where like, veggies are going to, they're very nutrient dense, they don't have a lot of calories. So it's like, they're going to, they're going to count, but it's really hard to get a lot of calories in from veggies, right. So if you're like at a fat loss, but so and you're relatively early in the process, it's probably not because of your veggies, right, there's probably other things going on there. With that, where's like something like, let's just take peanut butter, I'm not in any calorie dense food, right chips, let's take chips, it's like, yeah, you're off by a serving size, or you're skipping out on those, like, that's going to start to add up more, because it's a lot more calorie dense. And that's a lot of calories that you could potentially be like, overlooking in that process. So just understand that, like, I guess my point there was, again, if things are heading in the right direction, and you feel good, you don't necessarily have to count them, if you are starting to maybe get plateaued, you know, definitely look at like your other tracking, you know, make sure you're tracking all your calorie dense stuff. But you know, adding in your veggies can be, again, they're going to count towards your macros. So again, if you aren't seeing the weight loss that you want to see, you know, you might want to look at a logging them and going from there. So kind of my Yeah, my answer there on that, and kind of how I would go about that with clients. Yeah,

Philip Pape 56:34

I mean, there's a big practicality aspect to this, like you said, like, even if people are not tracking everything, but they're getting the result, maybe what's their, what they're doing is working for them. I know, when I eat every night, and I track my food, it's like the veggie ends up being the last thing and it hardly makes a dent in the calories and macros. So you're like, I like to track it because of the micros as well. So if you'd happen to be tracking your micronutrients, it's nice to have those in there. And then also depends on how we're defining vegetables or including like potatoes and corn and like actually high energy, starchy type vegetables, then yeah, you should probably log those. And then for everything else, like greens, you know, non starchy stuff. My approach is like, let's say you're having a salad, and it has 20 ingredients, pick the three or four that are calorie containing log those and you're good. You know, now if you don't log them at all, and it's kind of inconsistent, the accuracy goes up and down, it tends to be kind of in the wash at the end of the day anyway, because all you care about is like, what's the change relative to my intake? It's kind of like supplements, like, I don't track my fish oil, even though it has, what 40 calories? Because I take it every day, you know? So yeah, practicality versus accuracy and precision. If you find that you can't track it all, because you're obsessing over getting the Swiss shard logged, just maybe don't log.

Jeff Hoehn 57:49

That's it? Well, people will be like, well, you know, maybe my serving sizes off with them. And it's like, it's gonna be really hard to get your your veggie macros off right from logging simply because it really is hard to get a ton of calories. And what you do need to be making sure your serving sizes are right on the more calorie dense but like you said, again, I think it comes back to the practicality of it, right? I would hate for somebody to stress out about tracking their macros and not do it. Because they're like, they don't want to count every veggie because then it's like, alright, we probably can can get away. The only thing I'll say on this is, if you do have a coach, though, because this is something I see is, it might not be a bad idea to put them in because like I'll do this where I'll be like going through food blogs, and I'm like, hey, you need to get some more veggies in and they're like, Well, I, you know, that would be that would be

Philip Pape 58:30

like fiber fiber actually, yeah, yeah. Fiber. No,

Jeff Hoehn 58:33

that's good point you bring up right, it will, you may show lower fiber. So, you know, again, I think it still comes back to what we said where it's like, if you're, you know, what you're doing is working and why why make it more complicated. There. And again, maybe at some point, you will have to do that. But you know, just kind of depends on your on your results. So I

Philip Pape 58:49

had a client who was showing like seven grams of fiber a day, like we gotta get that up, and they said, Well, I'm taking 20 Something grams of psyllium husk I'm like, Okay, so that's why I don't see it in there. But also maybe that's not how we want to get your fiber. Not the only way. Not the only way right. So yeah, all good practical stuff, man. I think we covered you know, training, nutrition, fat loss, all this fun stuff. Any last words? I think we had a good one. Yep.

Jeff Hoehn 59:12

No other additions to the to what we were talking about. I know. I mean, it was great to know like you said a nice kind of blend of training and nutrition questions and I think kind of all over the again, like demographic as well, too. Right? menopause and everything in between. So yeah, I guess you know, as far as what else, definitely make sure if you are a subscriber of my podcast, make sure you go follow with some weights. I think you're doing what are you doing? Like three episodes or a week now spot is five. Wow. Okay. And then you have like a couple like shorter ones to built in there. And

Philip Pape 59:46

bonus one and then an interview in a solo? Yeah,

Jeff Hoehn 59:50

yeah. So again, make sure you check out the Whitson weights podcast from my understanding you're on every major podcast platform that you'd be listening on. And make sure you like and subscribe. ascribe to his podcast as well to their arm again, filled man always fun doing these, you know, there's a couple questions that we had where, you know, you kind of had an interesting kind of thought process behind it. And it kind of made me rethink that. And I think definitely, you know, having you to go over these with it definitely synergizes it right, we get a lot more out of it. And like, for example, you asked me to clarify the powerlifting thing, right? Whereas like, in my podcast, I would have just not even thought to, you know, would have thought about that. So I think it's super helpful. And, yeah, definitely give your your podcast a listen. It sounds great. Always super professional as well, too. So make sure you go give Philips podcast a listen.

Philip Pape 1:00:33

Yeah, man. And likewise, I mean, people like these shows, I think it's partly because of us, I hope, like having our different opinions. And sometimes we're strong about those opinions. But we come to it from a point of like wanting to help as many people as possible. And also understand that we've had a lot of both clients and listeners who, like they've listened to a lot of stuff, and they've consumed a lot of information. And it's not always the information that they need. It's like, how do you apply that? How do you implement that? And we always say, it depends. We always say like experiment and this and that. But keep asking the questions because at the end of the day, like that's how you learn and that curiosity is at least I thrive on that and I'm sure you do as well. So check out the mind muscle connection podcast if you listen to Whitson weights right now. If you're not following Jeff show, follow it right now. You've got three a week, right? Three

Jeff Hoehn 1:01:17

Yep. q&a guests and solo. Yeah, exactly. So

Philip Pape 1:01:21

check those out. And look if you don't like an episode of either of ours, you just have to delete it, but follow it so you get each one and some of them are gonna be a huge hit. You never know. You know, my latest episode it says do this in the bedroom dot that dot see curiosity you're like, what is that one about? And I'm sure

Jeff Hoehn 1:01:38

that's a really cool right now to download that episode right now.

Philip Pape 1:01:41

He's like, Yeah, I'm not gonna say what it's about. But anyway, go go follow the mind muscle connection. And stay tuned a reach out to both of us on our various IG. We'll throw those in the show notes so that you can ask questions we ask q&a In our stories as well all the time so that you might see it on the podcast.

Jeff Hoehn 1:01:58

Yep. And I would say to if we you know, if you do have any, like clarifying questions on what we talked about today, I think, you know, for me, Instagram is the best place like if you want to ask any follow up to that I'm sure same thing with you follow up probably the best place to like reach you for like specific questions. And then I plan on doing this again, in the next couple months with you. So be on the lookout for questions and our question boxes so we can answer these on here. So

Philip Pape 1:02:19

that Jeff Hain underscore, yes, sir. At Woodson, waits, and waits and waits. Cool. Awesome. All right, so stay strong, everybody. Thanks for tuning in.

Jeff Hoehn 1:02:26

Talk to you guys soon.

Philip Pape 1:02:29

Thank you for tuning in to another episode of wit's end weights. If you found value in today's episode, and know someone else who's looking to level up their wits or weights. Please take a moment to share this episode with them. And make sure to hit the Follow button in your podcast platform right now to catch the next episode. Until then, stay strong.

Philip Pape 6/21/24 Philip Pape 6/21/24

The Dark Side of GLP-1 Weight Loss Drugs (Ozempic, Mounjaro, Zepbound) with Amy Wilson| Ep 183

Diet myths got you stuck? Struggling to lose weight NO MATTER WHAT you try? GLP-1 drugs: Magic bullet or risky business? Today, Philip brings on Amy Wilson, a Board Certified Geriatric Pharmacist, a certified fitness professional, and a certified nutrition coach, for an engaging conversion on GLP-1 weight loss drugs. They explore the root causes of obesity and weight gain, as well as the origins and current use of GLP-1 drugs like Ozempic, Wegovy, Mounjaro, and others for diabetes and weight loss. Learn about the pros and cons of these drugs and discover practical lifestyle perspectives for managing these conditions.

Diet myths got you stuck? Struggling to lose weight NO MATTER WHAT you try? GLP-1 drugs: Magic bullet or risky business?

Today, Philip (@witsandweights) brings on Amy Wilson, a Board Certified Geriatric Pharmacist, a certified fitness professional, and a certified nutrition coach, for an engaging conversion on GLP-1 weight loss drugs. Amy's mission is to empower her clients to take control of their bodies and minds without feeling tied down by the scale. In this episode, they explore the root causes of obesity and weight gain, as well as the origins and current use of GLP-1 drugs like Ozempic, Wegovy, Mounjaro, and others for diabetes and weight loss. Tune in to learn about the pros and cons of these drugs and discover practical lifestyle perspectives for managing these conditions. They also share the secret sauce to achieving your health goals, providing you with actionable steps to take control of your health.

Today, you’ll learn all about:

2:19 Amy's journey from pharmacist to fitness and nutrition coach
5:53 The rising obesity, its root causes, and weight gain
10:05 Debunking dieting myths and the concept of body fat set points
12:56 Reversing the effects of dieting at any age
14:04 Introduction to GLP-1 drugs: a new approach to weight management
20:25 Long-term impact of GLP-1 drugs and the importance of maintaining muscle mass
22:11 A safe way to use GLP-1 drugs for weight management
28:01 Discussion on the impact of lifting weights and proper nutrition on weight loss
32:16 Effective dosage and the varying responses to weight loss drugs
36:19 Initial steps for starting a health journey
42:33 How to be metabolic flexible or a fat burner
44:54 Walk after meals to manage your blood sugar
47:02 What questions did Amy wish Philip had asked
49:10 Where to find Amy
50:07 Outro

Episode resources:

Website: amykwilson.com– send a message that says “witsandweights” to get the free 5-Day Fat Loss Blueprint (recipes)
IG: @thenutritioncoachpharmacist

Episode summary:

In the latest episode of Wits & Weights, host Philip Pape sits down with Amy Wilson, a board-certified geriatric pharmacist and certified fitness professional, to discuss the transformative power of prioritizing health and strength over chasing unrealistic body standards. We delve into the root causes of obesity, the role of GLP-1 drugs, and the importance of holistic health strategies.

Amy Wilson opens the episode by challenging the conventional wisdom that places a premium on achieving a certain body size. Instead, she advocates for training with the goal of future health and strength. According to Amy, being slightly above what society deems an "ideal size" but maintaining strength and functionality can have profound benefits for long-term health. She emphasizes that being able to perform everyday tasks, like getting out of a chair or carrying groceries, is far more important than fitting into a smaller size.

One of the key discussions in the episode revolves around the role of GLP-1 drugs like semaglutide and terzepatide, commonly known by their brand names Ozempic and Wegovy. Originally developed for diabetes management, these drugs have gained popularity for their weight loss effects. Amy explains that while these medications can be effective, they are not without risks. Potential side effects include nausea, irreversible gastroparesis, and muscle loss. She stresses that a holistic approach, which combines medication with proper nutrition and lifestyle changes, is essential for sustainable health outcomes.

The conversation takes a deep dive into the complexities of using GLP-1 drugs for weight loss. Amy shares a compelling real-life case of a client who experienced significant appetite suppression while on Ozempic, making it challenging to maintain a moderate calorie deficit and proper nutrition. This led to muscle degradation, highlighting the misconception that exercise and high protein intake can completely offset the negative effects of these drugs. Amy underscores the importance of a strategic, temporary use of these medications, if at all, and the need for physicians to guide patients through a holistic health plan.

Amy also tackles the pressing issue of polypharmacy, where individuals end up taking multiple medications to counteract the side effects of their primary treatment. She points out that the muscle loss associated with Ozempic use often leads to the prescription of additional medications, creating a cycle of dependency. Amy advocates for lifestyle changes, such as learning proper nutrition and incorporating resistance training, to avoid long-term health consequences like frailty and medication dependency.

The episode doesn't shy away from addressing the societal pressures and misconceptions surrounding body image. Amy calls out the unrealistic standards set by the media and celebrities, who often claim to have tried everything without achieving desired results. She argues that many of these individuals have not fully committed to a holistic approach that includes weightlifting and real food. By focusing on sustainable habits and long-term health, Amy aims to inspire listeners to break free from the diet culture and prioritize their well-being.

Amy provides actionable steps for starting a healthy lifestyle, especially for older adults. She emphasizes the importance of reducing chronic inflammation and managing cravings through better nutrition. Amy advises incorporating whole, real foods into daily meals and avoiding ultra-processed foods. She also highlights the significance of seeking help and staying away from quick-fix solutions, which often do more harm than good.

The episode wraps up with a discussion on the critical role of insulin in our bodies. Amy explains that insulin is not the enemy, as commonly portrayed. Instead, it plays a vital role in managing blood sugar levels. She emphasizes the importance of whole food nutrition, balanced meals, and regular physical activity, particularly weightlifting, to enhance insulin sensitivity. Simple movements, like walking after meals, can have a significant impact on both physical and mental health.

In conclusion, this episode of Wits and Weights with Amy Wilson is a treasure trove of insights and practical advice for anyone looking to take control of their health. Amy's expertise and passion for preventing lifestyle diseases through nutrition and fitness shine through, offering listeners a roadmap to achieve both mental and physical strength. By prioritizing long-term health and well-being over unrealistic body standards, Amy and Philip aim to inspire a shift in how we approach fitness and health. Tune in to this enlightening episode and take the first step towards a healthier, stronger you.

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Transcript

Amy Wilson 00:00

being just a little bit more on a fluffy side or a little bit bigger than what you think you should be. But that strong, guess what you get out of a chair? That's huge. Can you bring all your groceries in and one trip? That's huge. What we need to be doing is training for our future self and quit worrying about that size 246 Whatever we're trying to get into in those jeans, and think about okay, you know what, I have the button legs and that's okay.

Philip Pape 00:28

Amy Wilson 02:06

Philip, I am so excited to be here my favorite conversation to have awesome,

Philip Pape 02:09

yes. So you had this long career as a pharmacist and nutrition coach, and I know you talk about the trifecta kind of unique combination of your background and skills. And now you're kind of helping people, I'll say disrupt the diet industry because sometimes that's what we need to do when we talk about these topics. How did your background and pharmacy influence the approach that you have today with nutrition and weight management, for example,

Amy Wilson 02:32

it was kind of like my own journey, really, because I became a fitness instructor at 17. I was one of the people who always tried to out train a bad diet. Let's just be honest. That's what that's what I did. That's and that's what a lot of us still try to do. We try to outwork out the things that we're eating, like, oh, you see all the T shirts, I run for tacos, or whatever it is. And it wasn't really until I became a geriatric pharmacist and working in the nursing homes, that I really started seeing more lifestyle diseases, because here's what's happening is that it used to be in what you're probably thinking of a nursing home is that it's people in the later stages of life, their 90s are hundreds, that they can't live by themselves. They're frail. The problem is that is not what's going on today. Now it's 40s 50s 60 year olds, who are in nursing homes, a good majority have been because of maybe lifestyle, maybe there's a stroke, an early age, heart attacks, diabetes, which causes issues with your kidneys or renal disease could be because they lost a limb due to diabetes. So I started looking at this with my journey going through perimenopause, menopause, gaining weight. And it was one of those aha moments. I'm like, okay, yeah, I'm still trying to outrun a bad diet. But it goes deeper than that. It goes deeper than chasing skinny, which a lot of us have been doing forever. It's now that hey, I'm in midlife. And I don't feel like I'm in my 50s. I still feel like I'm in my 20s and 30s. And I want to make sure that in my 80s and 90s, I'm feeling like I'm in my 50s and 60s. So it's now stopped at Chase skinny is now starting to focus on health and strength, which is nutrition and weightlifting, to change the course to changes our course. And what I started seeing was that, hey, with my clients that came to me, it's like, they'll go the doctor, the doctor says, You're pre diabetic, or maybe you're diabetic, or you have a heart condition that your high blood pressure or high cholesterol. And it kind of means like, Hey, I don't want to be on medication. Well, I'm a pharmacist who prefers that you're not on medication, medication is a great thing. It's it should be the last resort shouldn't be the first thing you can reverse. So that's where I started seeing pictures like you know what, we can prevent you from being in one of my nursing homes. That's really my ultimate mission is let's stop that. Let's start working on prevention. Then, which is what we should be doing for health care, instead of going for the medication. And thinking that, Oh, there's a pill to fix that, how about we start using food and fitness, fix it, you're

Philip Pape 05:10

speaking my language and that of those who listen to the show 100%, especially when you talk weightlifting, because I agree as well. And I think until you get into this space, and start to apply these, whether it's to yourself or with clients or others, and you see a life changing, just small differences in your habit in a very short period, I mean, like, you know, I didn't start really getting in shape tells almost 40, and I've seen my peers degrade. And again, I'm only in my 40s. And yet I see people who look 1020 years older. And, you know, it often does come right down to muscle, muscle mass and just having that lifestyle. And doctors give the typically the same advice, diet and exercise, do your cardio, you know, cut out this cut out that right, I was surprised for you to say that nursing homes are now filled with much younger people, like I just wasn't aware of that statistic. And I think it's another wake up call, perhaps for what we need to do here. So I guess let's dissect a little bit, the obesity and the muscle mass kind of both sides of that equation and the root causes of all of this, because I think that's going to lead to when we talk about these medications, and people who are on them, and maybe things that they're not doing that they could be doing and maybe don't have to be on them. That's where people want to be. So let's talk about the rise in obesity. And what they're linked to beyond the obvious is the way I'll put it. So

Amy Wilson 06:27

let's take a trip down memory lane, if you know and all of us who are maybe Gen X. And even if you're a millennial, you'll kind of get this in the 70s. If you look back at pictures, people were skinny, you're like, wow, what happened? Well, the unfortunate part of the 70s is that people were having heart attacks. And it was a lot. And so we had all these groups saying, oh my gosh, we gotta do something about all these heart attacks, it must be fat. It must be all the saturated fat that's causing it. So instead of kind of looking at other things are like it's FAT, FAT, FAT, FAT, FAT. That's that's the problem. Guess what happened in the 80s? We replaced fat we went low fat. We went fat free snack. Well, snapper. Exactly. That's the class is established. Yeah. And the thing is, what we have a lot of belief systems and a lot of our belief system is multimedia, or things that we read over and over and over again, that just kind of grains us. So we had this where fat was bad. The problem is, is when you go with fat, free low fat, you're now going with additives, chemicals, preservatives and sugar. So we replace something we replace being relatively thin, and having some heart disease, with now being overweight, and diabetes, and being insulin resistance, because our bodies are just this huge chemical reaction, huge chemical reaction. They require vitamins, minerals, proteins, fats, carbohydrates, they don't require preservatives, chemicals, artificial stuff. And in fact, they don't have no idea what to do with that causes us to be hungry. When you think about going to something Chinese will say just because you're just having a lot of carbohydrates, it spikes your blood sugar, you're usually hungry a couple hours later. Same thing when you're eating a bunch of diet food. When people when we are on a diet and you're eating the link cuisines, the healthy choice, the diet bars, the diet shakes, you're starving all the times because you're not giving your body the nutrition that it needs. So we're in this diet culture, and we're bigger than ever, which is just crazy. So we've created this culture, we've also created the convenience culture that, Hey, Mom, you're too busy to cook, come to the drive thru, let us help you let us make your life easier. And a lot of these conveniences have also caused us to have a very poor relationship with food not and get the best food in our system. And then we're also addicted to this food, which causes our problem now as we have obesity, and now we're thinking that oh, I can't do anything about it. I don't have time to cook. I don't have time to do this. I don't understand what food is correct. What food should I eat? How much do I need? What do I need? Why are diets bad? It's there's so much misinformation in there. And all we're doing is making it easier, unfortunately, to gain weight and to be out of shape and to not be healthy. Yeah. So

Philip Pape 09:31

I mean, I've heard this termed as the obesogenic environment. And like you said, there's a huge not only miss information, but now Miss alignment between probably what our bodies will thrive from and be nourished by and what is out there and what we're seeking, through, you know, a lifetime from childhood of having these in our food environment. And we see this with other cultures around the world who are untouched by Western culture and then they significantly decline in that you know, once they get access to it, even the hodza tribe now that you Hear they've got some westernization going on. And they're starting to get you know, poor outcomes. Let before we move on from this, there's always the debate about Is it food? Is it behavior? Is it emotional eating? There's even the theories about like body fat setpoint. And I don't know if you know Stephen guy net? Is that how you pronounce his name? The brain? What's it called, he wrote a book about the brain hungry brain, I think it was called about like the programming of our brain and also how our body fat setpoint tends to worsen as we yo yo diet over time. I mean, kind of touch on some of those so that we can maybe simplify it for the listener to say, No, it is really this, but also we can do something about it. And we're not going to like throw you under the bus and say it's your fault. But we also know we can take power over it. So

Amy Wilson 10:45

especially for females, since we've been dieting since probably age 1516. Every time we dieted, we slowed our metabolism down. So don't hate me ladies, and then do this that happens to every time you starve yourself, your body is going to need fuel for something, your body needs to run, our bodies are programmed to try to survive. You need amino acids is coming from your muscle, you need vitamins minerals is coming from your bones. You don't give it what it needs is going to figure out a way to survive. The problem is every single time that you did this, because go back and think about oh my god, that that one diet that one diet works. So well. I got my skinny jeans or I gotten the dress that I wanted. And it was great. And then I get a lot of clients like this. They're like, but why are things taken so slow? Now I said, didn't really work. You're here. Now, it didn't work. If something can't work for the long term, if you can't sustain it, that means it didn't work. So every time that you did one of these diets, every time that you lost weight, you pretty much lost muscle, you might have lost a little body fat, a little bit of water, but you lost muscle muscles or metabolism muscles or fountain of youth. When you lose that you slow your metabolism down every single time and then then all of a sudden 4050 Your hormones switch and they start changing. And you can't understand why you're gaining weight so fast. Yes. Does it happened with perimenopause, menopause? It absolutely does it happen with men as they get older, especially they have body fat because now they have estrogen because they have body fat. So when you start doing that, the weight keeps coming on because we kind of set ourselves up for this. But the good news is, is that yes, you can reverse Yes, you can get that muscle back, you can decrease your body fat, you can change your body composition. But you can't do it starving, and you can't do it with doing hours of cardio. Couldn't have

Philip Pape 12:36

said it better. That was a good summary of the whole idea that yeah, if you're constantly, like you said, starving yourself, you're you're accelerating this process. You're losing muscle with age from that from the fact that you're not using it probably. And then hormones accelerate that process even further period post menopause, but also with men and lower testosterone, everything else. But you can reverse it at any point tell us how how old can you be before none of this works?

Amy Wilson 13:00

Oh, I have clients in their 70s and 80s. So I would say you know exactly what I tell anybody. If you want to change, if you are ready, it doesn't matter how old you are. I mean, we see it all the time, you'll see stories and People Magazine or GM A Good Morning America, have somebody in who you can make consider old elderly, who totally changed who they were. And maybe they got rid of a disease state or they listened to disease state, because they finally said it's enough. I'm done, I am going to get healthy. And this is going to be who I am now. And I think that is what you have to decide is that I always had people was like, oh, but can they want to pick and choose that I want to do this. But I don't want to do this, I want to do this or I want to do this, you have to realize is that there are a bunch of puzzle pieces. You have to put them all together? Does it have to be difficult? No. And that's what it was like, let me get my soapbox is out my feet. It does not have to be difficult. But you do have to do some changing. And you do have to be changing your beliefs and some myths that you've been believing for maybe years.

Philip Pape 14:04

Yeah, that's a good way to put it. We're gonna tease now. So some of these lifestyle things we're talking about. We're gonna tease that for later in the episode because what I want to do now is segue into the origin of some of these weight loss drugs. And then kind of the journey of you know, people's usage of them how we think of them, and then eventually tie that into what can we do instead? Like, what's the more optimal approach that gives you control over your your situation, that GLP one drugs and you can get as technical as you want. I love geeking out on this stuff and a lot of the listeners do so don't worry about that. They're super popular we have there's a lot of confusion over naming, but I know there's the compound names like semaglutide. And by the way the The Wall Street Journal had in their podcast recently, like a background on these drugs from the 90s. And they talked to the guy who invented the original one and he said it's pronounced a magnetite. I don't know if you agree with that a lot. A lot of people say semaglutide So anyway, he said that's where Oh like Yeah, so it's a magnetite or is Episode and others that had then have brand names, very well known like ozempic will go V Manjaro. And then you pointed out on zip bound as well. So now these drugs were originally designed for diabetes, and how do they What's the origin that you know of? And how do they work in the body control to change things? Like I know they control hormones, or maybe blood sugar? How do they work? Exactly. So

Amy Wilson 15:23

it is a huge discovery. So GLP one is a hormone that's in the gut. Let me say, like I said before, is that medication is sometimes needed. Absolutely. But we have to realize this medication sometimes in a lot of ways is a treatment not a cure, especially for lifestyle diseases. What we want to do is tried to cure it with fitness and nutrition. Now, if you're type one, but type one diabetics won't be on GLP ones. But yes, we've had GLP ones for years, and I'll get that people out. But it's been safe. Okay. GOP ones have been pills that you take on a daily basis for diabetes. With those there's been a small amount of weight loss, not a lot, maybe 5%. When someone's diabetic type two, that is that is good. We want them to lose some weight. The problem or I'll say the problem is, is that what happened with GOP ones is that they were a daily pill, right? Then they start looking at a once a week injection, and that's where everything changed. So what is it GLP One gop one is a glucagon like peptide that is secreted in your gut. It helps with insulin secretion, it decreases or inhibits glucose, glucagon secretion, and then it also slows down gastric motility in the injection form, it's like GLP, one times 100. So it's more powerful. We didn't realize that there's also GLP ones in your brain. That's just recent, which I think is just let me get out. Holy freaking cool, right? Totally cool. It's like, okay, so why didn't the pill work? Well, what happens when you eat because guess what, you could stimulate GLP one naturally, guess because it works naturally, we have it in our system naturally. When you have fiber, when you have protein, when you have high water content, vegetables, when you have healthy fats, that will stimulate your GLP one naturally, the thing about GLP one, it has what's called a very short half life, it gets released, it does its job, it tells you not to eat anymore, it slows down motility, and then it goes bye bye. Perfect is doing what your body wants. Now, the injections have a very long half life. And so they last in the body a long time. That's where we're getting some of the issues with possibly crossing the blood brain barrier, because now we're seeing that there are GLP one receptors in the brain, why it may be helping with people with addiction issues, that that might be part of an addiction, which is kind of cool. But what it also does is it turns on, so maybe nausea receptors, it can really slow down your gut motility to the point where it causes something called gastroparesis, which is the total shutdown of your gut. That's not a good thing. And it's unfortunately not reversible. And the other issues is that it makes you nauseated, it makes you not hungry. And I know every female is going Yes, finally, I won't be hungry. But guess what, that's not a good thing. That really isn't a good thing. I know we crave food lessons, we crave food because of not feeding our bodies properly. Because we are what are called Sugar burners. You're constantly feeding your body carbohydrates and sugar and not getting also your fats and proteins and your good complex carbohydrates. And so you're balancing your blood sugar so you're not always reaching for those candy bars. So not being hungry and not eating. Remember, I told you what happens when our when we're younger and we stop eating we do we lose muscle and we start going from our bones. Well hello, midlife women, the thing that we don't need to do is lose muscle and lose things from our bones. You know, and then I see osteoporosis and men now don't need to be doing that either. So the problem with GOP ones is that yes, can they cause you to lose weight and be skinny? Yeah. But what we're going to start seeing in 456 years down the road with these people who have been on it for a long period of time. And I look first of all, if you're on it, I am not condemning you, because if you're on it, please be working with somebody to make sure that you're getting enough fuel and making sure that you're keeping your muscle if you are on it, and you're not doing that. What could possibly happen if you don't start taking care of your body and your fuel and your muscle and working on eating enough is that you're gonna lose muscle. Your bones are become brittle. And what we're gonna start seeing is frailty. And that's a geriatric term, meaning if you see somebody who is sure shuffling, who looks old, who looks like they just blow over if you just, you know, blow on them and they're gonna blow over those or do any bone will break any seconds. That's we're going to start seeing, we're gonna start seeing hip fractures, we're start seeing people in the nursing homes who are young due to a GOP one, because we're not, we're using this as a lifestyle drug without taking the responsibility to make sure that we're using it correctly.

Philip Pape 20:26

Good. Yeah, you touched Okay, two excellent topics we should get into one is going to be the muscle loss, I want to start there. And the other will be the what do we do in conjunction even if you are taking it to actually at least get the best result out of it? So first of all, muscle loss. All right, so we all we thought I shouldn't say we all know, but people will listen to this show have heard me say many times, if you're not strength training, and you lose weight, which is what most people are doing throughout their life, when they diet, they lose muscle mass, and then they gain fat back and they constantly get more skinny fat, or they just get overall closer to that obese level of body fatness. Does treatment with these GLP ones, increase muscle loss above and beyond what you would be if you were just in a crash diet on your own mimicking the same deficit as being on these drugs? Or is there something above and beyond that it's causing MSA,

Amy Wilson 21:11

it's above and beyond. And the reason is, most time a crash diet the most that you can be on it by yourself is five to 10 days, because by then you're like binge, right? Because that's what happens. Your body's like, feed me feed Asia. Yeah. Right. And the problem with the GOP once it turns that off, so you're never hungry. So it's kind of like your crash dieting for a very long period of time. body needs amino acids. It is going to get it from muscle. And then somebody's be like, Oh, but you know what, I'm going to work out too. And I'm going to lift weights so that I can keep my muscle, no wrong answer. Because if you're not giving your body what it needs, if you're not feeling your body, if you're not giving it protein, fats and carbohydrates, it's going to use it for just trying to make it's anything I'm trying to maintain. That's the point you're not even given enough to maintain, you're given enough maybe to function and that's it. And so there will be no muscleman maintain, there'll be no muscle building, and actually working out could be even been worse, unfortunately. Okay,

Philip Pape 22:12

no. So that's good. Yeah, you make a fair point that you could artificially be on a diet that would normally be completely unsustainable for a very long time, because you're on this drug, which a lot of people is the purported benefit of it for people until you explain to them all these dark sides. So I had a client, I probably had multiple other clients that were on this that I didn't know. But early on, I had a client who was diabetic who was on the original ozempic. For that, like this was right around the time, then the weight turned into a weight loss drug. And it was amazing that she could go weeks or months at a time in a calorie deficit. And always it was a 10 out of 10 on hunger, like no hunger, right? Yeah, to the point where I was, you know, I was worried, but I knew the symptoms of the drug. And we were trying to do all the right things, right. She was lifting weights, she was eating a lot of protein, she was balancing her meals, but you kind of have to force it right not forced to be you have to deliberately do those things. And we kept the weight loss moderate. So it was interesting, because She almost had trouble eating enough because of her appetite being so suppressed, eating enough to stay in a moderate deficit. It was like the drug was wanting to get her way down into this ridiculous rate of loss. Yeah. So then, given all that, is there any good way to use this, you mentioned treatment versus cure is there like, you get a boost initially to get into an unhealthy regime, and then you get off of it, or, you know, you take it for a while, get all your lifestyle and gear, and then you get off of it. You know, I just want to throw that out there. If there's a possibility of it.

Amy Wilson 23:38

There are physicians who are starting to do that and making sure that they are in conjunction with a healthy diet, making sure that they're getting everything they're coming in, and they're actually doing their body composition to show that if they start losing muscle, but the problem is there's very few who are doing that. And that I mean, that's right. And I hate to say it is a cash cow. It's a moneymaker, the Big Pharma has seen that you know what the biggest issue with ozempic Bulgogi is people losing muscle. So guess what? They're coming out with another medication. They're looking at another medication that's using for muscle preservation. Oh, I must say, perfect. That is amazing for someone with multiple sclerosis, that it's amazing for other other issues. So that's what it takes to get that kind of medication great. But you're looking at someone who has those epic, let's say they're having bowel issues. So they're on something for that they're having nausea, they're having on something for that. They are having muscle wasting. So they're on something for that. And it's like now you have this big polypharmacy to be skinny. You know, I totally get people are like I'm, I'm obese, I need something. This is what's working. Okay, well, then we need to start looking at the ramp to get off and that is slow and working with somebody because you're going to have to start learning how to eat what you need to eat. And you're gonna start having to learn how to lift and work out. And the biggest proponent, I was like, but I don't have time, I don't want to think about it. I don't want to have to think about to eat I don't want to think about working out is, as traders always say, choose your heart. What's your heart? Is your heart going to be in a nursing home in 10 years because of this? Or is your hard to learn how to change your lifestyle? For me is it's a no brainer. I work in the nursing home industry, I see what it's like, excuse my language. Hell, no. That's not what I want. And I think most people don't want that either. What we want to do is try to prevent that now. So yes, it's hard, but you can do it. And the thing is, we can make it doable with baby steps and you do not have to work out for hours. 30 minutes a day, do something called NEET, which is non exercise Activity Thermogenesis, which just means moving your body, and you are perfect. You are perfect. But we have to get out of our head, females. Skinny does not equal healthy. And being a certain size is maybe not what's right for you. And maybe it's being just a little bit more on a fluffy side or a little bit bigger than what you think you should be. But that strong. Guess what? Can you get out of a chair? That's huge. Can you bring all your groceries in and one trip? That's huge. What we need to be doing is training for our future self and quit worrying about that size. 246 Whatever we're trying to get into in those jeans, and think about okay, you know what, I have the button legs, and that's okay. Absolutely.

Philip Pape 26:36

We need to get this message out because I've met with cardiologists this week, and a trainer this week, and it seems to be coming up more and more and more this concept of there's body images, body fatness, they're skinny fat. And there's all of this gets conflated together. And at the end of the day, like you said, you want to be in your 70s or 80s, not able to get off the toilet, or in a nursing home or on 20 medications. And I see it in my family. And I'm sure everyone listening who has an older parent or grandparent has seen what frailty does. And it's not inevitable, like that's the message it's definitely not inevitable, even though it is 95% of the population probably would you said

27:13

before I started working with Philip, I had been trying to lose weight and was really struggling with consistency. But from the very beginning, Philip took the time to listen to me and understand my goals. He taught me the importance of fueling my body with the right foods to optimize my training in the gym, and I lost 20 pounds. More importantly, I gained self confidence. What sets Phillip apart is the personal connection. He supported and encouraged me every step of the way. So if you're looking for a coach who cares about your journey as much as you do, I highly recommend Philip Pape.

Philip Pape 27:55

Okay, before we get to more digging into lifestyle, then just back on the GOP one drugs here. I've heard the advertisements and I've heard the stories that come on in the media, where people will say, you know, I just couldn't lose weight, right? Weight loss resistance. And there was no way I was gonna lose weight. And now I'm on this and it changed my life. And it's always that message of, oh, I wish I could look at their lifestyle. I wish I could do like an intake with them and see the simple things they could change. I know they're not lifting weights. I hate to say it, I just know it. Because if you are all this stuff tends to go away. Even eat more food and lose weight. I mean, it's crazy. What are your thoughts on that? Kind of the more touchy side of it there?

Amy Wilson 28:31

I mean, okay, so let's talk about the celebrities who are on it. So I've tried everything. I tried everything and not Yeah, I would love to see okay, were you really lifting weights? What were you eating? Were you eating everything from the you know, the the craft cart that's coming in, that they're catering? Are you focusing on real food? Are you focusing on the diet, the quick fixes? Because let's face it in Hollywood, what they do is they do quick fixes, quick fixes, quick fixes, and guess what it catches up with you? So could some of them be insulin resistance? And maybe they do need this? Absolutely. There's a possibility, but you have to use it with nutrition and lifting weights. There's not Oh, let me just do as them pick and not forget about this part. No. Let's do this part. And if you have to have ozempic, okay, we'll work with you on that say, well, we'll figure this out. And maybe it'd be the lowest effective dose period. But let's try this first. And see what's gonna happen. Here's the problem. That slow, it's not sexy. It doesn't come off fast. It's frustrating. And what I I love James clear atomic habits. I want to read that book all the time for sure. My favorite analogy is his is with the ice cube. And this is why I tell my clients over and over and over again when they're like it's not coming. It's not coming. I'm like okay, first of all, this didn't happen overnight. We are retraining and healing your body from the inside out and you have to you don't see the inside You'll see what's going on, you don't see the chemical reactions, they're now going boom, you don't see the muscle being built. So I want you to think yourself as an ice cube. But an ice cube doesn't melt until it hits 32 degrees. But guess what happens at 2021 2223. All of a sudden, these atoms are moving faster and faster, all the molecules are moving faster and faster and faster and faster. But you don't see it. You still see this ice cube as a solid state 2930 31 It is still a frickin solid state. It's not moving. It's not budging. My body's not doing anything. And then all of a sudden at 32 We got a puddle 33 puddle puddle without any ice in it whatsoever. Holy crap, how the heck did that happen? It's the same thing with our bodies. So it may not be five days, it may not be a month, it might be like, for me, it was month six, that all of a sudden I lost seven inches from my hips. It was like, Excuse me, that wasn't because of that month. That was five months prior of everything working and building and getting to the point where it needed to be so that my body could start saying, Okay, we're doing muscle, and we're gonna start burning fat. Yeah, it takes time. And that's what people don't want. And unfortunately, we're in the, give it to me now society, Instagram, don't like it, flick up to the next real. Let me go look on it on Amazon so I can get it in one day. All those kinds of things, we have to realize that our body is not on that timetable. Our body's on whatever timetable it wants to be. And mine is different than yours. And different than whoever's listening to this right now is different. But the one thing I can tell you is that we don't get side effects from food and weightlifting, yeah, no,

Philip Pape 31:45

nothing but good side effects. Yeah, so the power of compound habits is so true. It's like this flatline, that starts to accelerate, eventually, someone else put it to me this way, at least in fitness. After three weeks, you start to feel it after three months, you start to see it. And after three years, you start to be it, it was like this idea of, you know, it's a really long term process. And even at even after a year or two, you're still figuring things out and developing the skills, but it's so much fun and actual process can be so much fun. If you you know, kind of do it the right way for you. You mentioned. Okay, so a couple other things that came up. One is, you mentioned the effective dose. I was wondering about that when it came to these drugs. It sounds like there are different dosage levels you can have. It's not just one pin that everybody gets, okay. Yeah, is it typically started at the lowest or started

Amy Wilson 32:32

at the lowest, and then they'll keep increasing and just know that there are people who are resistant to this drugs, too. There are people that it does not work with. So and then there's some people, you know, they'll get the side effects right away, then they refuse to do it, because they're getting the nausea, the vomiting, that they stop right away. If once again, everybody's different, we all have a different DNA profile. And that's what people have to realize is that, you know, and that's the beauty thing about the Earth, the world is that we are all different,

Philip Pape 32:57

right? And the new is of the new drugs you mentioned, Zep bound or something. What's different between that and the older ones? Oh,

Amy Wilson 33:03

well, I haven't seen the studies per se. I've just seen kind of like the blurbs that it's supposed to be even more potent, which scares me. But in America, what do we want? We want? We want it we want the max, we want the extraordinary and yeah, that's it's kind of scary.

Philip Pape 33:21

Well, especially since they are expensive. And I know of course people complain about it, and why isn't insurance covering it? Medicare doesn't cover weight loss, drugs, all this other stuff. And, you know, you've got the compounding pharmacy debate going on, because the FDA put it on their shortage list. And so you got calm, right, all of that. Like if you just don't take it, you don't have to worry about any of that. Yeah, yeah. What about somebody who has excessive weight to lose? Let's say they're up in the 300 plus range. I've heard these stories where the excuse the reason, whatever you want to call it is, you know, just to hurt too much to move and do any of the lifestyle things is, is there some point where you're like, yeah, maybe this actually is the last resort for someone? Or what are your thoughts?

Amy Wilson 34:00

You know, I can I understand that I do. But you if you're going to use it get with a trainer, what I have seen in my facilities is that those who are who are larger, doesn't seem to work very well. And which I don't know why. And it could be because they don't move. It could be because their BMR is so low, that just nothing's going to work. And yeah, they don't lose, they don't eat. They're not losing the body fat. And that could be that the resistance? I don't know. But okay, so if you start it starts coming off, and you're not hungry. Okay, but let's start working on your muscle mass. Let's start working because I hate saying at the end day, but I'm gonna say at the end of the day, if you don't have muscle I went to a symposium long time ago and it was a functional person. He said, our biggest issue growing old is gutlessness is not having glutes. Okay, yeah, for sure. I can I can totally see that because if you don't have glutes you're not able to walk you show Whoa, you're not able to stand? You're not sure what's his posture? You fall go in the bathroom. So yeah, you're gonna lose the weight. Great is may help your heart rate may decrease some of your diabetes great, but are you able to live? Are you able to lift? Are you able to walk? Are you able to do things?

Philip Pape 35:18

Yeah, we had Sue bush on the show recently talking about glute training. And yeah, that was the premise was the functionality of it not not to mention just having a shapely, but it's the function. So when people hurt, like when, again, when I hear these stories of larger individuals, and I've had a few clients that were on the bigger side, not necessarily like clinically obese, but like in the mid to upper two hundreds, let's say for a 510 male, you know, that's getting up there. Even if things hurt almost invariably, one of the solutions is just find a movement pattern that mimics something that eventually becomes a full range lifting pattern and start doing it and it will start to feel better. My own mom, she doesn't mind me talking about it like same thing. You know, painful knees, painful hips, we got to coming off the couch, getting that down the squats, all the pain went away. Now she goes to the gym. I mean, I love stuff like that, you know, when you're in your 60s and 70s. And then

Amy Wilson 36:06

you start eating right, and you reduce it and you start reducing the chronic inflammation that is also triggering pain. Yes, it's a win win. So virtuous cycle. Yes, it really is, you can't do one without the other, you really need both. So

Philip Pape 36:19

then let's talk about lifestyle, let's get a little bit more specific. If there's something you would recommend for those listening, who maybe are have been struggling with the whole cascade of things that we hear, it could be both, they've had trouble losing weight, due to whatever reason, they maybe have some cravings, emotional eating, quote, unquote, addicted to sugar and things like that. Although, you know, I like to say you wouldn't go and eat from a bag of sugar, you're really addicted to other things that happen to have sugar. And all those things. It's just somebody comes in, and they're just a mess. Okay? Where do you where do you start? Let's just go there.

Amy Wilson 36:54

The first thing is what I do and when I train, I have virtual clients. I'm all over the world. Let me tell you, it's not just the United States, it has this issue. I have clients in Europe and in in Australia, and it's the same thing. So don't worry, we're not alone.

Philip Pape 37:08

In Australia, I also have a lot of clients there. I don't speak English. But

Amy Wilson 37:13

with Australia, I think a two is that very similar to United States is that it's what they call takeaways, a lot of fast food, a lot of this kind of same issues that we have in America. The first thing to do is just okay, you have to look at everything. Look, so you made the decision to start, which is I think the biggest thing in the world is that you first of all said okay, I'm gonna start, think the worst thing that you can do is what the biggest loser does, and they're like, here you go, you're gonna work out for hours, we're going to give you all sorts of clean food, and we're not going to tell you how to do it. And then they leave you on your own. After all, we go back to home and you have to go to work. You have kids and stress so you didn't learn how to incorporate in your life. So let's take baby steps. First week. How about we start eating some real food? How about we start looking at we look at what you're eating everyday. How many times you're going through the drive thru? What are you putting in your coffee every morning? What are you having with your coffee? Are you grabbing the donut the bagel? The simple carbohydrates? Okay, can we replace that with some eggs? Can we replace that with steel cut oatmeal? can replace that with chicken? Yes, you can do steak, you can do fish, how about we do some real food. And maybe just do it's one meal every day. And then the next time is the next meal and next meal. The other thing too is don't be afraid to ask for help. There is no shame in the game. The what I want people to understand is that what I coach is all about nutrition and fitness. Stay away from the quick fixes stay away from the shakes, stay away from the things that promise yo a huge weight loss, you need to start looking at health and wellness and strength. And that's where I think a lot of us make mistakes, it's not that we're making mistakes is that we just don't know where to start. So if you can start getting rid of the processed food, the ultra processed food because frozen vegetables are processed and they're amazing. Fruit frozen fruits amazing too. So we start getting rid of the ultra processed foods is stuff that has lots of chemicals like additives, preservatives, colors, and going back to really the basics of what we should be eating, then you are going to feel better and it's going to start being you're gonna see the cascade effect, you're gonna see that, that this builds upon this that builds upon this and let me tell you, when you start eating real food, the amount that you have to eat is a lot is a lot. It is a lot of volume and you're like wait a minute, I should never be eating this much. I'm gonna gain weight. No, you won't because you're eating real food. If you think about Ultra processed food, it's already really disgusting but it's already processed for you and just digested for you and gets absorbed. Real food. It has to be digested. Not all the nutrients get absorbed. That's the difference. So you might be in taking the same amount of calories and I hate calories. We I could do macronutrients, we might be injustice in my calories, but you're getting so much more bang for your buck. And you're gonna start seeing differences in your body.

Philip Pape 40:14

Yeah, how many? How many women at least have I met that said, I don't know if I can eat this much protein. And I'm worried about gaining weight, adding all this protein and the opposite happens. You're like, I can't keep the weight on, I need actually more carbs and stuff now to make up

Amy Wilson 40:26

for it. Right. And what I tell people is that if it was working, you wouldn't be here. Right? Right. Yeah. So

Philip Pape 40:31

these are great. So first, I mean, you mentioned the decision to start. And actually, we don't want to take that for granted. Like there's a huge amount of gratitude, someone should have anyone listening to this show right now, in our millions of listeners are saying, You know what, you're right. The first thing I need to do is to decide and do that right now. Like, do that right now even pause the podcast and like, write down some of the stuff and do it. And then take baby steps, get that awareness do that audit. I love Amy's approach of, I call it additive nutrition. Somebody else I stole that term from somebody, but adding in the things that are, you know, real foods, we're not thinking of, I can't eat this, or I can't eat that. It's like just add these things in, it's going to crowd out some of the ultra processed foods. At the end of the day, Amy, you're not telling people to not eat anything processed at all are, you

Amy Wilson 41:16

know, this colonies or chocolate chip cookies I'm filming right now. But yeah, here's the thing is, is that I still eat burgers. In fact, I'm having one tonight. But it's, you know, I get real burgers, I'm making it, I'm grilling it. You know, I still do pizza and make it at home. We just forget that we can do things and it tastes so much better than going out and getting it for sure. And that's what we we kind of forget that I think what we need to remember is meaning we talked about just when we just just start writing things down, don't write down about being skinny, and why skinny is going to make you happy because it's not happiness starts now happiness starts on the inside, I want you to think about your future self. She's looking back at you. He's looking back at you. And he's saying thank you for doing XYZ, because I'm now on the beach, I'm now living my best life. So what is XYZ? What are you doing to make sure that yourself in 2030 years is living their best life? And then work backwards and start doing that and ask

Philip Pape 42:12

for help. You said no ask there's no shame ask for help right away. And that can come in many forms. So absolutely love that. I did want to one one side tangent we didn't get into any detail on but I think it's important. We talked about health beyond the muscle mass and everything else, blood sugar, and kind of insulin sensitivity and all of that, that people are often concerned about, you know, before we even get to pre diabetic or worse than that, what should people be aware of, and what kind of misinformation is there because I feel like there's a lot of it. So

Amy Wilson 42:41

and then as you get older, there is a possibility of of having a higher agency agency as a snapshot of what your blood sugar has been doing the past three months. So when we only eat processed foods, or called or processed foods, we're only going for sugar and you're hungry every two hours. That means what you called a sugar burner. Well, we want you to be as what's called metabolic flexible that you are also a fat burner. And to do that we do it sales called blood sugar stabilization. And when you eat a protein, fat and carbohydrate each time that's going to help slow down digestion is going to help slow the the release of sugar into your bloodstream which will cause insulin to be released. And by the way, insulin is not a bad thing. A get is like insulin is the devil No, it's not our once again our buys a chemical reaction, we eat our blood sugar gets raise. Insulin does its job. It says hey, muscles, liver open up, I'm bringing you energy. The problem is, is when we keep eating a lot of crap. And we keep flooding our blood with sugar and insulin keeps getting released. And the muscles are like saying the receptors like you know what talk to the hand, I am so tired of you knocking on my receptor door I am not opening up. And then that's why we get increase in blood sugar. We are seeing it more because of the ultra processed food because of the fact that we don't move because we don't lift weights. So stop the increase, stop the changes in your blood sugar now to the negative effect. And start working on whole food nutrition start getting that lifting in. The more muscle you have, the more insulin receptors you have, the less your blood sugar is going to be

Philip Pape 44:29

for sure that's an empowering message because these are simple changes like the balancing of your macros. There are a lot of benefits to doing that period. It one of them is just practically if you're like well I'm trying to hit certain amount of protein fats and carbs if I just eat balanced meals I'm gonna get there and it's not this like race of oh, now I got to do carbs and protein. Yeah, and so that's really important and you mentioned insulin and I don't know if you said glucagon but I know we can get into pancreas and all that. But lifting weights muscle mass also increase your insulin sensitivity quite a bit, don't they? Yes,

Amy Wilson 45:00

I do. And the only thing you can do is just go for a walk after you eat after Yes, yeah. And it doesn't have to be long. It's just a nice pace. And what that's going to do is that's going to bring your blood sugar down. Because guess what you're using your glutes, your legs, you're using all your muscles, your muscle needs energy is going to take it from the blood glucose.

Philip Pape 45:18

Amazing how that works. If you just use your body and the way it's intended, and not sit around either I'm having more on that message lately is lift weights. Move. Don't not move. Like I think there are three distinct buckets. Yeah.

Amy Wilson 45:31

Well, we get you know, we get in America in America is that one is good. 10 is better. And we think Okay, move means that we have to leave it all on the floor. Great. Okay. I am an instructor. I understand. I used to always say you got to leave it on the floor. It doesn't count unless your DNA is on the floor. Yes, yes, you do. You need to hit and do your cardiovascular training. Absolutely. But not every single time and not for hours. Just moving everyday. I have standing desks. So I stand during the day, going for a walk so underrated. We think that we can't do something for an hour. It's not worth it. No. Everything adds up.

Philip Pape 46:06

And it's great for your mental health too. Yeah, just like a 10 minute walk. Yeah, just feeling a little bit down. If you're feeling like stressed, go for a walk, you'll see how much it improves your mood. If there's one thing you had to say me this, this has been incredible. And the time is flying by if there's one thing, one piece of advice that you would give of either everything we've talked about or even something we haven't today to take control their health, what is it?

Amy Wilson 46:30

And I always say this, people always ask me, What's the secret sauce? How is it that you can stay healthy? How is it that some of your clients have been able to to drop the weights or get healthy? And I always tell you, you're the secret sauce, you hold all the keys to be able to get to your next level to get to where you want to go. You just have to decide, but you have the secret sauce.

Philip Pape 46:55

You are the secret sauce. I'm going to quote that. You don't have that trademark, do I? All right. So I do ask this of all guests. I don't know if you heard it on a podcast of mine. But it's one question Did you wish I had asked and what is your answer? You

Amy Wilson 47:09

know, I think we touched upon everything. It's, I don't I always say it's like, you know, it's what asked me that. It's like what one question. You know, I think that the one question would be, why should you not ever do working out or nutrition? And

Philip Pape 47:28

that's an interesting one. Okay. All right. play devil's advocate. Yeah, devil's advocate.

Amy Wilson 47:31

And the answer is, there's not a reason. Oh, there is not, there is no reason. And we have just been kind of brainwashed to think that, you know, this is just the way it is. This is where I am. It's my DNA. Yes, we can get in the DNA talk sometime. Now it's not you can change your DNA, you can change the script, you can change anything. You

Philip Pape 47:55

know, that is a very profound statement. And I want people to percolate on that a bit. Specifically, the idea that I've ever read, read the paper actually still read the physical paper on Sundays, believe it or not, and they have the little health section and it's always this like, fufu article about like, seven ways to better health. I'm very cynical about these now. But and they rarely mentioned lifting weights. And I think that's a non negotiable, like you said, I know you use the term movement and exercise. But would you agree that like, you have to be lifting weights? Yeah. And it doesn't

Amy Wilson 48:24

have to be you know, I get women all the time. But I don't want to be Arnold I don't want to look like a man. Girlfriend. Not gonna happen. Not gonna. Not gonna happen. You are lifting your dog. You're lifting your grandkids, you lift your kids, you lifted the groceries, start training for that. Make it easier. Yeah,

Philip Pape 48:41

it's important because I do see in some of these articles are like, you know, just move a little bit every day. I'm like, Okay, well, I guess if you're not moving, that's nice. But let's get the message out there to really optimize your, your health,

Amy Wilson 48:51

the shape that you want. The shape that women want, doesn't come with dieting doesn't come with hours on the treadmill or the Stairmaster or the elliptical, it comes from lifting weights, that's really the shape that you want.

Philip Pape 49:03

That's right. That's how you become Superwoman. Lean, live, fear, strong, whatever resonates with you. And, Amy, this has been a pleasure so much, where can listeners learn more about you and your work?

Amy Wilson 49:13

So if they follow the whole time, they could either do two things, they can go to my website,

Philip Pape 49:19

wait a minute, don't say that. Everyone's still listening right now. Okay. So

Amy Wilson 49:23

essentially, listen, essentially, listen to the whole thing. You could go to my website, www dot AMI K wilson.com has Amy K wilson.com and Ami K wi ll so when and you can send me a message and say Whitson weights and I would love to send you a five day fat loss blueprint or if you are an Instagramer hit that follow button and send me a message that you listen to me on waits and waits and I will send you a five day fat loss blueprint that has lots of different recipes to help you get started and make it not so hard. Awesome.

Philip Pape 49:58

So we will throw that in there. MBK wilson.com And your IG handle, which is what

Amy Wilson 50:03

again, at is the nutrition coach, pharmacist, nutrition

Philip Pape 50:07

coach pharmacist and let her know what's in waits, and then I'll unlock the secret code to the five day fast blueprint and she'll send it along your way. Amy, it's been a pleasure. Thank you so much for sharing all your wisdom and your insight with us today.

Amy Wilson 50:19

Thanks for having me.

Philip Pape 50:22

Philip Pape 6/18/24 Philip Pape 6/18/24

How to Allocate 1200, 2000, & 3000 Calories in Your Meal Plan (Plus Hit Your Protein!)| Ep 182

Is your meal plan optimized for your fitness goals? Are you struggling to follow your diet plan because it is too restrictive? Are you looking to maximize your muscle growth and boost your energy?

In this episode, Philip (@witsandweights) provides an evidence-based, comprehensive guide that cuts through conflicting information about meal planning and macro setting. He shares a blueprint that covers the essential aspects of setting up your meal plan for success. By following his recommendations, you will recover faster from your workouts, see changes in the mirror and on the scale, and optimize fat loss, muscle gain, performance, and overall health. Whether you are cutting, bulking, or maintaining, this episode will equip you with the necessary knowledge to structure your nutrition and achieve your fitness goals.

Today, you’ll learn all about:

4:35 Energy balance essentials
7:48 Calculating maintenance calories
11:55 Protein and 1,200 cal meal planning tips
14:55 How much fat and carbs you need in your diet
17:45 Nutrient-dense 1,200 cal breakdown
20:04 Sample 1,200 cal day meal plan
26:21 Macro management on a 1,200-cal diet
28:15 Transitioning to and sustaining a 2,000-cal plan
36:27 3,000 cal plan for muscle building
43:03 Hunger management at higher calories
44:48 Episode takeaways
48:12 Outro

Episode resources:

Join my email list and tell me you want my free meal planning guide (with foods by macro, sample meal plans, and foods sorted by protein density)
Try MacroFactor for free with code WITSANDWEIGHTS. It's the only food-logging app that adjusts to your metabolism!

Episode summary:

Achieving your fitness goals often requires more than just hitting the gym; it's also about mastering your nutrition. In this episode of the Wits and Weights podcast, we delve deep into the intricacies of meal planning for fat loss, muscle gain, and balanced nutrition. We break down meal plans at varying calorie levels—1,200, 2,000, and 3,000 calories—and offer insights on how to allocate your macros for optimal results. From debunking common fitness myths to providing personalized nutrition strategies, this episode aims to make meal planning straightforward and sustainable.

To start, understanding energy balance is crucial. At its core, managing your weight boils down to the first law of thermodynamics: energy in versus energy out. If you consume more calories than you burn, you'll gain weight; consume fewer, and you'll lose weight. This principle is independent of body composition changes, making it essential to grasp before diving into the specifics of macro distribution.

Let's first explore the 1,200-calorie meal plan, often recommended for aggressive fat loss. While this low-calorie count can be challenging, it is crucial to prioritize protein intake to preserve lean muscle mass and stay satiated. Aim for one gram of protein per pound of target body weight, incorporating sources like lean meats, eggs, dairy products, and plant-based options. High-fiber foods such as fruits, vegetables, whole grains, and legumes should also be included to enhance satiety. The episode highlights the importance of nutrient-dense food choices, like Greek yogurt with berries for breakfast and large salads with lean proteins for lunch, to make the most of your calorie budget.

Next, we discuss the 2,000-calorie meal plan, which offers more flexibility and sustainability, particularly for those with higher metabolic rates. This plan allows for a more balanced intake of macros, providing the energy needed for both daily activities and workouts. You can include a wider variety of foods, including starchy carbs like pasta and bread, and still stay within your calorie limits. This flexibility makes it easier to adhere to the plan long-term, especially when you factor in occasional indulgences.

For muscle-building enthusiasts, the 3,000-calorie meal plan is ideal. This higher calorie count allows for significant increases in both fats and carbohydrates while maintaining adequate protein intake. The key is to plan and track your intake to avoid overconsumption. Incorporating frequent meals and calorie-dense foods, such as nuts and avocados, can help you meet your higher calorie demands efficiently. The episode provides practical tips for scaling your meal plan based on individual needs, activity levels, and body types.

Intermittent fasting is another topic covered in the episode. This eating pattern can be beneficial for managing hunger and improving metabolic health. Practical tips include starting with a 12-hour fasting window and gradually increasing it to 16 hours, allowing your body to adapt. Listening to your body's biofeedback and making smart adjustments is essential for maintaining a balanced diet while following intermittent fasting.

In addition to these topics, the episode offers valuable resources for listeners. Sample meal plans and food lists are available for those interested, making it easier to implement the discussed strategies. The importance of tracking your food intake and adjusting based on your body's response is emphasized throughout the episode.

In summary, this episode is a treasure trove of information for anyone looking to optimize their meal planning for various fitness goals. Whether you're aiming for fat loss, muscle gain, or overall health, the practical tips and personalized strategies discussed can help you achieve your objectives. Remember, meal planning is a skill that requires practice and adjustments, but with the right knowledge and tools, you can make it work for you.

If you want to dive deeper into the specifics of meal planning and macro allocation, don't miss this episode. It offers a clear blueprint for structuring your nutrition to support your fitness goals. Plus, you'll gain insights into the science behind different eating patterns and how to make sustainable changes to your diet. Listen to this episode and take the first step towards mastering your meal planning!

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Transcript

Philip Pape 00:00

What is the optimal way to allocate your calories for fat loss, muscle gain or maintenance? In this episode, you'll learn how to distribute your macros for different calorie levels, the key differences between them and practical tips to make your meal plan both simple and foolproof. Learn how to master your meal planning on today's episode. Welcome to the wit's end weights podcast. I'm your host, Philip pape, and this twice a week podcast is dedicated to helping you achieve physical self mastery by getting stronger. Optimizing your nutrition and upgrading your body composition will uncover science backed strategies for movement, metabolism, muscle and mindset with a skeptical eye on the fitness industry

Philip Pape 00:41

so you can look and feel your absolute best. Let's dive right in Whitson weights community Welcome to another solo episode of The Whitson weights podcast in our last episode 181 How not to be skinny fat and week with Adrian McDonald. You learn the real reasons that you might be skinny, fat and weak right now and what to do to get strong to feel energize, nourish your training and your body and build that lean, well muscled physique you're going for. Adrian shared his personal journey with body dysmorphia, so you could come away with strategies for a healthier, more positive self image. Today, for Episode 182, how to allocate 1200 2003 1000 calories in your meal plan plus hit your protein, we're tackling a topic that comes up constantly with my coaching clients and with my listeners, how to allocate calories for optimal results, we get questions all the time about meal planning, you know, how do I set up my macros for fat loss? What's the best way to distribute my calories if I'm trying to build muscle. And the truth is, there's a lot of conflicting information there about meal planning, and setting your macros. And the real big thing here that I want you to get out of this episode is meal planning itself is a skill, it's very personal to you, that's the approach that we take to be given a meal plan is like being given a blank workout template that hasn't been personalized for you. It might work in the short term, but it's not sustainable and probably is not going to match you your preferences, your lifestyle, the things that you enjoy about food, and so on. And then you have the conflicting information where some people say, you have to eat six small meals a day, you know, just okay metabolism. Others claim intermittent fasting is the key to burning fat. And then there's you know, cutting out carbs, and cutting out fat and all those sorts of things. And all of which is I'll call it prescriptive and restrictive. Whereas what we want to do is develop an open ability to put this together for yourself based on your goals and your preferences. And I want to cut through the noise, I want to give you evidence based practical strategies that you can implement today. Because you can follow the most scientifically optimal, you know, program meal plan, take the right supplements. But if your nutrition is off, you're never going to achieve the physique that you want. So this is more than just hey, here are the meal plans you can put together. This is what's behind that. Now, when you do nail down your nutrition, everything else becomes easier, right you have more energy to crush those workouts, you can recover faster, you can start seeing changes that you want to see, because you're in control. So whether you're cutting, you're bulking you're maintaining this episode's gonna give you a clear blueprint for how to set up your meal plan for success. And we're going to do it by allocating calories and macros at three different levels. These are totally random, but I picked them because they cover the spectrum where most people fall 1200 is really on the very low end. 2000 is kind of in the middle. And then 3000 is a little bit on the upper end for most people. And then you can find the approach that works for you based on your goals and lifestyle within those levels. And so by the end of this episode, you're going to know exactly how to structure your meal plan your nutrition to optimize whatever it is fat loss, muscle gain, performance, health, whatever. And before I get into this, I just thought of something. I have a guide that I've created for private clients that has sample meal plans. It has foods by macro, and it has foods by protein density. If you want that just join my email list and then reply and say, Hey, give me your meal plan guide. To join my list. Go to Whitson weights.com/email or click the link in the show notes. Again, go to Whitson weights.com/email You'll get a welcome email and then just reply to Hey, Philip, I heard you on the podcast. Can you give me that meal planning guide and I'll be happy to send it to you. All right, get ready to take notes and let's dive in today's episode how to allocate 1200 2003 1000 calories in your meal plan plus hit your protein. So first, we have to talk about the basics of energy balance as a refresher, because at its core, managing your weight managing your mass that the amount that gravity pulls you into the earth, right that's really all that is, comes down to the first law of thermodynamics energy in vs energy out. If you consume more calories than you burn, you're going to gain weight. You consume fewer calories than you burn. You're going to lose weight If you consume the same, you're gonna maintain your weight. And this is independent of everything else of body composition of fat loss building muscle, right? This is purely the weight on the scale. And as much as we talk about fat loss versus weight loss, fat loss being more important, we still have to understand energy balance and how that affects this whole thing. And so this might seem simplistic, right. And there are certainly other factors that influenced body composition, like the macronutrient, split the amount of protein you have, and then all the things like sleep stress, even your genetics, at the end of the day, calories are king when it comes to weight change. Understanding that it's a lot, you know, it's easy to say that, and then there are practical things that come in place that actually make it challenging for people, especially in the what we call obesogenic environment in the western world with easy access to food, that makes it challenging to actually control those variables. And that's the key distinction here. Now, if we look at studies, right, I like to call on studies, there's a meta analysis from 2017, that looked at 400 Weight Loss studies and found that the only consistent predictor of weight loss was calorie intake. Okay. So again, not a surprise, it wasn't low carbs, it wasn't low fat, it wasn't intermittent fasting, it wasn't exercise, the participants who lost the most weight were the ones who stuck to a deficit, regardless of what they follow. Now, you might say, Okay, that's great. The problem is maintaining the weight. Yeah, that's a whole separate thing. We're not going to get into that in detail here. I just wanted to cover the fact that calories are important for energy balance. Now, before you get caught up in the details of like meal timing of food composition, you have to have a handle on this. And that's why I'm starting here. Because if you don't know, your maintenance calories, your total daily energy expenditure, right, the number of calories that you burn in a day. And that includes your basal metabolic rate, your activity level, the thermic effect of feeding for your food, it includes everything, it's the whole pie, everything you burn in a day, if you don't know that, it's very hard to decide where to go from there. And most people who reach out to me saying, I've struggled, you know, to lose weight, right hit a plateau. The first question I ask is, are you tracking, and usually it's either, well, I'm using my fitness pal and I track my food, but they don't know what their expenditure is, they don't know how many calories are actually burning. Or they'll say, I'm looking at my wearable, my Apple watch, and it says, No, very, very inaccurate, you have to have a way to know pretty precisely what your maintenance calories are on any given day or week, so that you can constantly adjust those calories accordingly. And there's a lot of online calculators and formulas. And the problem is they can be off by like 400 calories in either direction. So it's okay to start with that. But then you're gonna have to track your food and weight over time to see how it changes in response. And then you'll know your true maintenance. And of course, I'm gonna plug macro factor as a great food logging app that does that for you. And if you want to download macro factor, use my code, Whitson weights get an extra three week on the free trial. And it's the only app I know that really does this correctly, it determines your true maintenance calories, doesn't just give you an estimate. And then it will go up and down based on your activity, what you're eating, how your lifestyle changes, whether you're in fat loss or not, right. And then once you do that you can maintain for a few weeks and say, Okay, I'm ready for fat loss, I'm gonna go ahead and set a goal to lose fat at a rate of x, maybe it's half a percent of my body weight a week. And that's going to require a certain deficit. And there you go. And that'll determine what calories and macros you then need. And that determines what you need for your meal plan, right when you put your meal plan together. So when I work with clients, and when we talk about our physique university, you know, sometimes I'll have a new client that isn't too familiar with the podcast or what we do, and they'll come in and they want to lose fat right away. We say, Well, hold on, let's determine your maintenance calories first, and then go after it. And then the other. The other question is, well, do you give me a meal plan? Like no, I don't give you a meal plan. I want you to put together your own meal plan based on what you enjoy, what your timing is, what your preferences are for like level of protein and fat, things like that, within some constraints, right within some boundaries, of course, within some general guidelines of 80%, Whole Foods, 20%, indulgences, things like that. But at the end of the day, you can eat whatever you want, as long as it fits your personal goal for your meal plan which is calories, macros, and micronutrients for the most part Other than that, it's things like timing, and oftentimes a meal plan will have timing in there it'll you'll have like in my pre workout, my post workout, my lunch, my midday mid afternoon snack, my dinner, for example. You don't have to it could just say like, here's four meals in the day, figure out where you want them. But whatever you do for your meal plan, you know, calories are the foundation, then the macros, and then the micros and timing and all that kind of fill in the gaps. And it's just a starting point because whatever your day one meal plan is, you might find that it doesn't work for you in some way and and you're gonna have to swap it out, right, and you know, swap one food for another change around the timing, reallocate the calories and the macros. So let's start with the lowest level of calories, because I know that can be the most challenging of all. And I want to start with the good stuff just right away. Okay, let's say you're in a fat loss phase. And you've determined that 1200 calories is the right target for you. And I will say 1200, the more I've worked with clients, the more that this is generally a very, very low number, almost the rock bottom lowest amount of calories that I would recommend for anybody. And it's usually when you have a slightly low metabolism to begin with, and you're trying to go moderate to aggressive. Other than that, I am generally seeing most people higher than this, you know, more more like 15 to 1800 calories. Okay, and again, it depends on your weight, right depends on your starting point depends on how aggressive you're going, but slightly lower than 1200, you're gonna start to run into some malnutrition. And it's hard to get protein with having much of anything else, you know what I mean? Like just practically, these absolute numbers do have some significance, right? Even if you are 100 pound female, and your metabolism is only, you know, 1400 calories, we still have to understand there are practical limitations to being able to eat enough nutrients and different foods and macros, when you go too low in calories. Alright, so having said that out of the way, I'm starting with 1200, because it's kind of the rock bottom, and it has the most restrictions on you, and we're going to make it work anyway. And then from there, it should get easier, the more calories you have. So again, you might be smaller frames, you know, more petite person, you might have a slower metabolism, you might just be looking to go pretty aggressively from a moderate level of metabolism. Okay, it's probably gonna be a very specific reason for that. And it's important to be strategic then with how you allocate the calories. So we always start with protein, right? Protein is the most important macronutrient when you're in a deficit, because it helps you preserve that lean muscle mass, it helps you stay forward, it helps you stay satisfied, it burns the most calories of all the macros, right. And that means you only have so many calories to work with, you're going to be taken away from fats and carbs, because protein is number one. So keep that in mind. Most people when they're down at this level of calories, it ends up being a fairly low carb diet anyway, not because carbs are bad, but because you don't have room for them once you allocate so many of your calories to protein. So if we're going for something like that magic, you know, one gram per pound of protein of lean body mass or one gram, we're gonna make it simple. One gram of protein per pound of target bodyweight, right. So if you're 150 pounds, and you're trying to lose 20 pounds, go to 130, we're gonna go about 130 grams of protein, right? When you multiply that by that four, multiply that by four, you get, what 520 calories. So actually, you don't have these Aerohive these numbers right now, I'm just doing them in my head. But 520 Out of the 1200 calories, notice how much that is, that's almost 50% of your calories. Right? It might seem like a lot in percentage wise, if you were to use like zone or some other percentage based system. It sounds like a lot of protein, but it's actually a very good balanced level, that will make a difference in holding on to that muscle on your results and how you feel and it's probably going to make it a lot easier to get through the dieting phase, just because of the types of foods now you're going to be eating good protein sources like lean meats, right chicken, turkey, fish, lean beef, eggs that you know the challenge with eggs, of course, his whole eggs are roughly the same amount of protein and fat. So if you eat a bunch of eggs, you're also going to have a lot of fat for the ride. And that's why I like adding an egg whites along with whole eggs to kind of dilute it toward more protein. Things like Greek yogurt, or cottage cheese in the dairy department, right? Tofu Satan, right, all the soy based stuff if you're plant based protein powder, of course, like whey protein, casein protein, plant based proteins, and then all the plant sources of protein like say oats or legumes, knowing that those things also contain. They're not primarily protein sources. They also contain carbs, and some some of them contain fats, right. The rule of thumb here is including a solid serving of protein at every meal, when you set up your 1200 Calorie plan is going to be pretty much required. If you're going to get in all that protein. And one of your snacks might be mostly protein. As much as I love balance, it might not practically work out that way for you. If you were to eat, say four times a day one of those might be a snack that's predominantly protein. But you know, something like Greek yogurt, or cottage cheese does have some carbs in there so it ends up being a little bit balanced. And then you can use this protein supplementation like whey powder to kind of fill it in to get more of a pure protein. So that's where we start with protein and in the 1200 calorie diet that's going to dominate everything. Right then we get to fat, right? Fat is very important. It's essential for hormone production. for vitamin absorption for brain function, and the challenge with low calories with fat is we don't want it to go so low that we're starting to harm our health. And that's where we get to, I usually say about 30% of calories. And for most people, even at 1200 calories, that's going to be enough. In terms of grams, I wouldn't want to go below, say 10 to 15, rock, bottom right 10 to 15, rock bottom, but you probably can be more up like, say, 30, or 40, something like that, maybe in the 20s, right to kind of keep it a little lower fat and give you room for extra carbs. So when you do the math on 1200 calories, that's kind of where you're constrained, because then the rest of it goes to carbs. And when we talk about fat sources, this is where you've got to be a little bit more judicious in your meal planning, right? You know, foods like nuts can definitely be in there, but you're probably not going to have too much peanut butter, for example, because so calorie dense, you're not gonna able to have much of it. Seeds, avocado, olive oil, you know, fatty fish is great, because now you've got your protein and your fat in there that that's where the fat can come from a little bit of saturated fat from things like eggs and beef and things like that, you're not gonna have much of it, most likely during a fat loss phase. And we always want to limit saturated fat to like a third of your fats, or 10% of the total calories roughly. And then the rest is with carbs. Right. And of course, contrary to hopefully, it's not popular belief anymore, but I think it is, you don't have to avoid carbs ever. Carbs don't make you gain fat. It doesn't help you lose fat to cut carbs, right? Carbs fuel your workouts, they replenish your glycogen, they keep your metabolism humming, they spare protein. And the challenge when you're at 1200 calories is you just don't have very much room. For carbs, you might be down to like 80 grams. And that ends up being fairly low carb, I mean, in the Keto world, you're looking well sub 100, generally, but even when we put the low carb label on it that I usually think of as 100 or less. And so when you're at 1200 calories, and you're giving almost half your calories of protein, and then a decent amount of fat just for health, you're left with probably 80 or 100 grams of carbs. And notice I'm not giving you exact numbers, because it's going to depend, you may be the type that wants to go up to 1.2 grams per pound of protein and really crank up that protein and have very little of the other stuff. You know, hitting your fat minimum always but not very much from for carbs. Or you might be a little bit lower, you might be down at the point eight grams per pound, giving yourself some more room for carbs. So it really depends. And whatever you start with, listen to your body, document your biofeedback and see if it wouldn't help to say, Cut some protein and give yourself some more carbs. Right. And this all assumes you're not changing the calories you're at 1200 ish calories. When you choose carbs for your meal plan. Again, in fat loss. This is where the complex nutrient dense sources kill two if not three birds with one stone, the other birds and they kill. Sorry to be so McCobb about death here. But birds is nutrient density, so getting your nutrients in and also fiber. So when you choose carbs for a low calorie meal plan, you want them to kind of satisfy the fiber nutrient density, satiety and carb buckets all at once. And that would be simple things like fruits, veggies, some whole grains, but you're gonna find whole grains also have a decent amount of like calories. So you may be limited there. And maybe even legumes right beans, you know, people forget that. But that's beans are like a carb source with some protein. So if you're going to have beans in your, you know, kind of serves both of those. So, a lots of veggies, you know, green veggies, veggies that have very low calories, but take up a lot of space are really going to be helpful when the calories are low to fill up your stomach to have more volume. That's super key. Right. So this is not the time where we're going to have lots of, you know, pizza and doughnuts, or we're not going to have probably lots of refined grains just because they're not going to make you as full you can have them there's no rule against them. But they don't have as much fiber and they don't have as much volume. And so you're just consuming a lot of very easily pre digested calories that don't fill you up. And that's not going to help as much in fat loss as going with, you know, whole grains, fruits, vegetables, things like that. And then even with fruits, you can kind of be a little judicious and lean more toward things like berries, which will have more volume for the calories. But still things like oranges, apples, bananas are awesome because of all the other nutrients they have as well, electrolytes and things like that. So you've got about 100 grams to work with or less. It's not a ton of room. So you've got to be strategic, having high fiber, high volume foods, lots of protein. That is the strategy here, right? A lot of volume without much calories, leafy greens, berries, sweet potatoes, oatmeal, all the lean proteins that we talked about before. And so real quick hear, you know, even though the title of this episode sounds like I'm just giving you meal plans, the actual meal plans are just kind of a drop in the bucket here as an example for how to construct this and everything I just told you are other principles behind a low level of calories. All right. So here's what a sample 1200 Calorie day might look like breakfast, a cup of Greek yogurt, half a cup of berries, quarter cup of some low sugar granola. So right off the bat, when I say low sugar granola, I'm talking about a processed food you get in the middle of the grocery store that you might like the taste of to kind of add some variety to your yogurt. But you're picking a something that food science has developed. For us that happens to have low sugar, you're not doing it because you're on a low sugar diet, or low carb diet. This is where the creativity comes into play. And using food science to your advantage, and not listening to the influencers that say you can't have any processed food at all. I'm starting to throw in the little examples where it's perfectly fine, and it might work for you. Okay, so yogurt, berries, a little bit of low sugar granola, you can have a snack with some, like a protein shake with protein powder and almond milk. So I love almond milk during fat loss, instead of say 2%, or even whole milk or something that has more calories. But if you're gonna use a milk like a 1% fairlife could work because it's mostly protein. Okay. And again, this is kind of fitting a snack in like maybe it's after your workout, lunch, some sort of lean meat, let's say grilled chicken, that's the classic go to but you can have a lean, you know, pork or beef or fish or whatever, with some mixed greens, tomatoes, avocado, balsamic vinegar that make a big, big ass salad. But like they say, I'm a big fan during fat loss when your calories are really low. I'm having lots and lots and lots of veggies with some protein for lunch. Like that's a great combination. And because you already probably had some carbs earlier in the day, or let's say you worked out earlier, you may not you might work out in the afternoon, in which case you could flip it around. But let's say you did you had you should have most of your carbs during fat loss around your workout. And then maybe reserve a little bit for dinner because that's where people like to have another source of carbs. So that's lunch, it's some sort of protein with a bunch of veggies, add in zucchini, peppers, cucumbers, you know, anything that's just like big crunchy volume, Enos has water in it, and almost no calories. All right, then if you were to have another snack, which again, this is really tough, right 1200 calories, typically you're going to have maybe as little as three meals, but some people don't like to go a long time between eating because of their hunger signals. And so you're either going to have, you know, five or six small meals, or you're going to have three bigger meals. And one more caveat during 1200 calories, if you want to use a little bit of intermittent fasting because it helps you manage your hunger signals and be consistent and stick to those calories go for it. If on the other hand, you're like me, you can't go this long stretch of data, you just don't want to Well, then you're gonna have to spread out the feeding window, and then make the calories work within that window. So if you were to have a snack on this diet, you might have like a hard boiled egg and an apple, you know, very simple like fat, protein, carbs. Now, that may not actually be enough protein. But because we're dealing with low calories, you may not be able to hit some sort of minimum for a particular snack and give you permission to do that. The total protein is what matters. So I'm throwing a bunch of little caveats at you here to show you that there's no such thing as perfection when it comes to this. But you could just get rid of that snack and allocate those calories to the other meals. Hey, this is Philip and I hope you're enjoying this episode of weights and weights. I started with some weights to help ambitious individuals in their 30s 40s and beyond, who want to build muscle lose fat and finally look like they lift. I noticed that when people transform their physique, they not only look and feel better, but they also experienced incredible changes in their health, confidence and overall quality of life. If you're listening to this podcast, I assume you want the same thing to build your ultimate physique and unlock your full potential

Philip Pape 23:47

whether you're just starting out or looking to take your progress to the next level. That's why I created wits and weights physique University, a semi private group coaching experience designed to help you achieve your best physique ever, with a personalized done for you nutrition plan, custom designed courses, new workout programs each month, live coaching calls and a supportive community, you'll have access to everything you need to succeed. If you're ready to shatter your plateaus and transform your body and life, head over to Whitson weights.com/physique or click the link in the show notes to enroll today. Again, that's Whitson weights.com/physique. I can't wait to welcome you to the community and help you become the strongest leanest and healthiest version of yourself. Now back to the show.

Philip Pape 24:37

All right, dinner again, four ounces of salmon, a big cup of broccoli, a half cup of quinoa, right simple. quinoa, brown rice. I mean, you could do white rice, but again, white rice, brown rice, make the comparison and you'll see you could eat more brown rice with the calories and it fills you up and gives you more fiber. Again just during fat loss. Maybe you go back to white rice during maintenance. It's not a huge sacrifice. It's Still rice, you're not cutting out the rice altogether. Again, rice, quinoa, things like that. And then if you need one more snack before the end of the evening, here's where some cottage cheese cucumber can come together, you know, or you can have like a casein protein pudding that you've made a lot of my clients during, and even myself, if I'm at fairly low calories, I might reserve like 150 of those calories or 200 of them. For the end of the day, just in case I know I'm gonna get a little hungry or want a snack or dessert, and reserve that for this pre bed snack or this post dinner snack. Okay, so I just gave you one of a million permutations for a 1200 Calorie day, but what you noticed is very little processed food, because that's just not going to satisfy you. It doesn't mean that you can't like on a given Saturday, or a given day of the week, say I have to have ice cream, I want to have ice cream. And I'm going to reserve ice cream in there. And it's just going to affect the rest of my day up up ahead. And I'm going to pre plan for that. I'm just going to pre login or pre plan or if I know I'm going out to a restaurant during a fat loss phase, I'm going to pre plan for that, I'm going to switch up my meal plan. So the first, you know, two meals of the day, are mostly protein and veggies. And then I've reserved most of my fats and carbs for dinner. Right? totally your choice. And that's how we do it. That is how we do it. 1200 calories is not a lot of food. And so making it balanced, nutrient dense. Hitting your macros as the day goes on is going to be very important. So if you're using macro factor, for example, you can tap the macros at the top and look at how what percentage of your macros you've hit so far. And if you keep them more or less aligned, right, knowing that you need a lot of protein, every meal is going to have a big percentage of protein, keep them aligned, don't let any one macro fall too far behind. And that'll be a really easy way to get where you need to be at the end of the day. All right. So the key to 1200 calories is really quality over quantity, making every calorie count. Choosing whole minimally processed foods that nourish your body. But planning in indulgence is where you need them. And don't tell yourself, you can't have anything, you can have anything, it's just going to be very strategic. And if 1200 calories, doesn't feel right to you, if it just feels too restrictive, no matter what you do, you've gone through all these changes, you've come up with like the ideal meal plan for you. And it still just doesn't satisfy you, it may be too low calories. And I don't care if that means your fat loss phase slows down. It is what it is now there may be changes on the calorie burn side of the equation that we can deal with. We never want to overdo it there. We never want to say well, okay, I'm just going to add in five hours of cardio a week, it doesn't work, the body will compensate for that. But increasing your step count, maybe adding one or two small cardio sessions and things like that, if you're not moving enough, if you're simply getting 6000 steps a day during a fat loss phase, and you're struggling to hold on and calories. Well, the 6000 steps a day is probably the opportunity, right? Not necessarily the calories or your meal plan. So just throwing that in there. So that's 1200 calories, any lower than that it gets really, really tricky. You're getting closer and closer to more of a protein modified fast, right? If you're down to 800 or 700 calories, you're eating almost entirely protein. And if you're not, you're probably going to lose muscle. Right. So just keep that in mind that as these principles apply, no matter what it's just you have more room to work with, the higher the calories are. So now let's move into the middle level, the 2000 calorie meal plan. And again, I just kind of chose this it was around number, maybe you're at 1800. Maybe you're at 2200. But you've got a little more wiggle room to work with than the 1200. Well, quite a bit more, right? Because when you go from 1200, to even like 1600, that extra 400 calories, you know, that's like a decent sized snack or even a small light dinner. Right? So with 2000 calories, you have a more moderate level that's more sustainable for people. And by sustainable, I simply mean, you can go a longer duration and not feel psychologically drained or taxed at that level. And for some people that's like, you could go years at that level depends on who you are. You know, I'm a bigger guy. My metabolisms around 3000. For me 2000 calories a day is a really aggressive diet. And so for me, it's not something I want to be on for more than I'll say, like at most four months. Now, you might be like, Oh, that's a decent amount of time. But I mean, that's like the upper end. If I were to do it day after day after day, eventually I would just get kind of tired of that. Right. And by the way, I did an episode recently about how fast to lose weight for fat loss. And I talked about diet breaks and refeeds there. Go listen to that episode, if you want to learn about strategies for breaking up the diet along the way to make it even more sustainable for the whole dieting phase to get to your endpoint without feeling like you ever have to give up. Okay, I'm not covering that today, though. So 2000 calories a day. At this level, you have some more flexibility with your macros, you're still going to prioritize protein, you're still going to be up at that, always within that point seven to one gram per pound. All right. And if you're at 2000 calories, maybe you're dieting, maybe you're maintenance, maybe you're gaining depends on where you start, I don't know, okay, we're not the 1200 was focused on fat loss, this one is just focused on hitting the macros properly, and it gets a little bit easier, right? For fat, you get a little bit more room as well. So the fats can come up a little as a percentage of calories, they stay the same, but they come up in grams, you know, maybe they're up around 5060 grams now, right four to 500 calories. And then now you've got your carbs. And this is where at the 2000 calorie level, the carbs might come up to 200 or more, right, so now you've gone from way down at the 100 level, up to the 200 level, now you start getting into that spot where you've got some flexibility you've got, you're able to put a decent amount around your workouts, right, if you've got 200 grams of carbs to work with, you could put like 75 to 100 grams around the workout, if you want, you can have like, you know, say 30 to 40 grams before like 50 or 60 grams after you don't have to, but you might find that that makes you feel great for your training sessions. And you can start to include starchy carbs, you know, like other like white rice, pasta and bread, the higher sugar fruits, you might be able to eat more of those met bananas, mangoes, things like that. And then the indulgence is when we talk about our 8020, the 8020 rule 80% of your diet comes from whole nutrient dense foods. And then 20% from less optimal choices, sources that you just love to eat. You've since you've got more calories to work with the 20% also becomes a few more instances of that right, some extra squares of chocolate or extra slice of pizza, you know, and not that you could you ever have to say that you're limited to those period, it's just that now you have more flexibility to do it. And you can, you know, go out to eat things like that a little bit more frequently. And always however, we want to plan in those indulgences, we want to fit them in to our targets and our goals rather than just winging it and hoping for the best. That's where people often screw up, people come to me and they're like, I hit a plateau. And even if they are a quote unquote, tracking, they might not track everything. And even if they're tracking, they might still go out to eat on the weekends and just far over consume, what they thought was their deficit for the week and offset it. And now they're still at maintenance or gaining weight, right? And they're inconsistent, and all of those things, even if they are tracking, right. But usually when you're tracking when tracking properly, it helps you gain that awareness and start to change your behaviors and give you a sense of what portions look like and how different foods fit into your plan. That's why we do it. We don't do it to count calories, or to restrict ourselves. We do it to give us information and empower us to say okay, 2000 calories actually makes a lot of sense. At that rate, I can you know, gain or lose x pounds a week. That's reasonable for me, and I can eat this way. And I can eat this way. And that's what sustainability is all about. It fits within your lifestyle. So what does 2000 calories look like? Well, let's say we were to have again, four or five, even six feedings a day, right? Depends. I'm going with more because it's harder to do to go from less to more than more or less. Make sense like I'm giving you more frequency. And then you can say well, I'd rather only eat three times a day so now I'm gonna squish those together and just increase the volume of each of those meals fine. But if I only gave you say breakfast lunch dinner, then you'd be like well what do I do to create a snack here or pre or post workout here or pre bed over here. I don't want to make you overthink that so if you were to have breakfast on a 2000 calorie meal this is where you might have your eggs right eggs mixed with egg whites and some arrows spinach and mushrooms and toasts with almond butter for example or peanut butter a little bit right and that's that's a delicious breakfast right there. snacks throughout the day might look like say protein powder with almond milk but now you can add in some banana or make a smoothie with it if you want. Another snack might look like you know the classic like vegetables dipped in hummus if you'd like and then another might be you know cottage cheese, Greek yogurt and things like that with protein you know, again I'm giving you two or three snacks throughout the day if you'd like but smush them together get more protein in any one snack that's how you do it. Lunch. I get a li meat with some vegetable this time you might have not only greens but also something like sweet potato and then for your greens. It could just be any leftover greens you have broccoli, green beans, brussel sprouts, a little bit of olive oil. You know this is where you can have a lot more oil and butter and things because you have more calories to work with dinner you know dinner and lunch you're going to hear from me and are pretty much similar, you know Brown Turkey or you know pork loin with some rice and some zucchini and some sauce of some kind that you like like a tomato sauce or say a low calorie barbecue sauce and they're not on this one but like if you were going to have pork, you can throw some barbecue sauce on there. There's some like nice lower sugar varieties or just have the full up and just planted in. And then in a 2000 calorie diet, you probably can fit in small desserts if you'd like them, like I'm a big dessert eater. It's just how I like to do it. My family likes desserts, you know, we're active, we keep the calories reasonable, we like indulgences here and there. I love ice cream. So fit it in. And I'm telling you, you've got the permission to do that, and you've got the room to do it. If you plan accordingly. That's all it comes down to, if you're not just snacking, and licking, and taking off of your kid's plate, and randomly drinking six beers on the weekend, not tracking anything, if you're not doing those things. Well, now you can put all this delicious, nourishing food, including things like ice cream, if you like it into your plan, right. So you get more food more variety, at this level of calories. And this is tend to be a more realistic and sustainable level for a longer duration. So that's really all I'm gonna say about that. And no matter what you do, you don't want to ever feel restrictive, you'll ever want to feel deprived or burnt out. So that's sort of the diet breaks come in, or increasing your calories. Or using forms of nonlinear dieting, which is going to be a topic I cover in a upcoming episode, I'm going to cover all the ways to use non linear dieting, like you don't just diet on the same calories day after day after day. There's ways to be creative about it. Again, not for today, upcoming topic. So make sure to follow the show always follow the show, click the Follow button in your app. So you get notified of those episodes. All right, finally, let's talk about 3000 calories. And some of you are like I could never eat 3000 calories you ladies out there. I know I've heard it many, many times. Some of you guys are like, well, that's my maintenance, you know. So when I say 3000, just imagine it's just a fairly high level of calories for you. Maybe it is 2500, maybe it's 4000. And it represents being in a building phase. This is a building phase, I'm not talking about 2000 was more in the middle kind of maintenance, maybe cut, maybe build three sounds like you're building, you need a lot of food. And if you're a bigger guy, think of this as like 4000. If you're a more petite female, maybe this is 2800. And that's a lot for you. All right. So this is you know, you're active, you're training you have you're building muscle, you're trying to gain weight, most likely. And maybe you're a hard gainer, and you've experienced the situation where as your metabolism ramps up, you can't keep up with the calories and you start to plateau, and you're not able to gain so kind of covers all those scenarios. And at this calorie level, on the plus side, you have a ton of room to play with your macros and your food. Okay, protein is still important. But believe it or not, it doesn't have to be nearly as high as it would in fat loss in terms of grams per pound, which sounds a little bit ironic, since you have so many more calories to play with. And in reality, you'll probably end up having no problem hitting that protein, if you've been doing it at those lower levels. And so point seven to one gram per pound. Again, I'll target body weight. So let's say you're 160 and you're trying to get to 190. All right, you know you're aiming in the 181 90 range for protein in terms of grams. Alright, so you know, you're talking, I don't know what, what does that come out to be six 700 calories from protein, something like that, which as you as you realize now is only like a fifth of the calories, where it was almost a half of the calories are in fat loss. So the higher your calorie level, the lower the percent of the protein is because you don't really need to change it much. Protein is almost always around the same amount. For me, being that I'm around 180 pounds, I'm usually eating around 180 grams of protein, whether it's very aggressive fat loss, maintenance, or, you know, optimal muscle building gain, I'm still always around 180 grams. So what changes is the fat and carbs, fats scale with the the calories, so they don't go like way up or down. They just kind of scale a bit. So when you're at 3000 calories, now you're up to like 7080 90, even 100 grams of fat kind of in that range. Some people like to eat more fat than others. Some people like to eat fattier cuts of meat. And that's fine. As long as we're cognizant of the saturated fat. As a portion of that, again, reminder, we don't want to really exceed a third of our fats from saturated fat, or put another way, around 10% of our calories. So if you're at 3000 calories, you don't want more than, you know, 300 calories from saturated fat, and that's really on the upper end. So we try to keep that reasonable but overall your fats probably 7080 90 100 grams, and then the rest is carbs. Now you're up to three, four or 500 grams of carbs, right again, depending on where everything else lies. I'll say for most people, you're going to be around three or 400. Okay, and this is where everything just opens up, right? Dried fruit, honey, maple syrup, starchy vegetables, like the amounts of them just get a lot more flexible. And you don't have to be as you know, cognizant of them. You still plan you still track. You still make room. It's still easy to over indulge and over consume just like it isn't any level. And I've seen cases where you are now at such a high calorie level that you almost lose a little bit of that control. Because you have so much flexibility. And you're prone to say, going out to a restaurant and consuming 5000 calories. Because you know, you have all these calories to work with, you know, maybe not 5001 meal, but 5000 for the day, let's say. And before long, you're having a problem by over consuming even when you're trying to get a lot of calories. It's less of a problem. For most people, most people have a problem on new consuming, but just be aware of that, that we always need to be tracking and planning. Alright, so what does the 3000 Calorie day look like? I mean, honestly, it's anything. It's like anything goes. And it's gonna be very easy to hit your minimums no matter what. So I would just do what you do with the other levels and just scale things up and add more indulgences where you want them and give yourself some more flexibility. It's really all it is, you may have to eat more frequently to get all the food in. That's the one of the challenges people say I can't eat enough well, you're maybe you're not eating frequently enough, you may have to eat more calorie dense foods on purpose to consume more it so I mentioned the dried fruit, but this is having more oil, butter in your foods having higher fat meats, having a higher fat dairy, so instead of low fat or no fat Greek yogurt, you'd go with the regular you know full fat Greek yogurt, right instead of the low sugar granola I mentioned just regular old full up granola you know, you still want fruits, vegetables, starches, you know carbs all that in there. But now you might have just whole eggs when you have eggs don't even worry about egg whites, right? So anyway, the meals are gonna look the same just scaled so like breakfast could be eggs with some spinach and mushrooms and oatmeal and protein powder and some peanut butter. Right nice big hearty meal to go maybe that's your post workout. For me that would be like a post workout. A pre workout might be whey protein shake and banana. But I don't know when you're training so I'm just kind of giving it to this way snacks throughout the day. It would be things with Greek yogurt and berries, you know fruits, almond or peanut butter dairy products. I think I mentioned already. Maybe it's an indulgence right that's where you might you might have a pop tart. I don't know like if you really have a hankering for a pop tart or bowl of ice cream you want to fit it in there. That's that might be where you have it right no judgment, no judgment at all. You can do this lunch is going to be you know fish and quinoa or, and brussel sprouts and olive oil same is at 2000 calories but just scaled up dinner steak potato broccoli with some butter, right so you can kind of live it up a little maybe have that ribeye that you've been kind of hankering for, you've been eating a lot of top sirloin now you're gonna have some ribeye a fattier cut of steak, a lot more calories, but you've got the room for it. So it's a lot of food for some people, right. And it can be a challenge to eat this much. Especially if you have a smaller appetite. And that's where like liquid calories can be helpful. Protein shakes, smoothies, milk, just good old whole milk. Alright, don't over think it good old whole milk can really help. If you get fairlife Chocolate milk, love that stuff. It's got a nice balance of macros. Lots of protein tastes great sweet. You can heat it up in the winter. And it's like instant hot cocoa, you can put it in a ninja creamy recipe and make ice cream. There you go. So the key with 3000 calories is, you know, it's like you're listening to your hunger cues, and not really trying to force yourself to eat when you're not hungry, but rather make the meal that what you eat and how you time it work with your hunger. So you don't feel like Oh, I'm just stuffing myself to eat. Because to me that's as mentally unhealthy as forcing yourself to starve at lower calories. Like you don't want to do either of those, it has to be more sustainable, even in the face, even when you are pushing it. And when you're at 3000 calories, it's okay to have a lighter day. And then a heavier day, like if you want to cycle if it makes sense on training days, you feel a lot more hungry,

Philip Pape 43:43

maybe more calories go on those days. Right The goal is to hit on a weekly basis is to hit your averages for the week, not every single day, you can't be a robot. Alright, so hit it for the week. And that really applies to everything, right even if you're at 1200 calories, you want to hit the 1200 on average for the week. If one day you're at 1000, another day or 1400. But again, it averages out. You've planned in going to a restaurant on Saturday, but it averages out it's fine. Never make up for something the next day that you didn't plan for don't do that. But think ahead to make it work for the week. Alright, so we covered a lot of ground. We talked about the importance of energy balance, how to determine your calorie needs for each of these levels, when they might be appropriate, you know, fat loss, maintenance, muscle gain, we broke down meal plans at different levels so you can understand the level of inherent kind of flexibility versus strictness you might have. Right 1200 2000 3000 And then how to allocate macros at each level. You notice that things are pretty much the same, they just tend to be scaled, and there room for indulgences and flexibility goes up the more calories you have. So some takeaways that I want you to come out with this episode are number one, calories are still the be all end all when it comes to scale weight when it comes to weight management. And that's what you have to know you maintenance calories by tracking your food against your weight and macro factors, the best tool to do that. So calories are king, they're the beginning of it. Number two is protein is the next thing we prioritize right prioritizing protein, especially in a deficit and deficit, it's even more important to get that upper level toward that one gram per pound of bodyweight. That's number two. Number three, don't fear fat, don't fear carbs. They're both super important in a balanced diet, you know, focus on quality, especially at the lower calorie levels, and then adjust based on the calorie needs and be creative. Plan ahead, you know, use macro factor and plan out an entire day. That looks like a quote unquote, perfect day just to give you inspiration for how to keep these things in balance. Number four, always plan for treats and indulgences. Right, the 8020 rule is a great guideline, if most of your diet is coming from hold nutrient dense foods then gives you lots of flexibility for the treats and indulgences as opposed to the other way around where you might have lived before, which is a lot of foods or just random processed foods, indulgences, going out to eat fast food restaurants, you know, snacks and licks. And just before you know it 80% of your diet is this unplanned processed food, we're just flipping that around 80% Whole Foods, the rest comes from whatever you want. And then number five, track track track, I'm just mentioning this specifically here. At least initially, it's going to give you a lot of awareness. But most of my clients when they start tracking, especially when they use macro factor, because it's so easy to use. They keep going I mean, I've been going for several years just because I love the information. I like to train myself on on the portion sizes on how different foods fit in different phases. And also be able to track my micronutrients and things like fiber, and saturated fat that can also be helpful. So remember, there's no one diet, there's no one meal plan for everyone. Right, the best meal plan is the one that a meet your goals. And that b You can stick to consistently over the time necessary for that level of calories. So take these guidelines and make them work for you. All right now if you need some help personalizing your approach to all of this and keeping yourself accountable because remember, the information we provide in this podcast is information that you can use, but it doesn't help solve the implementation for you, you have to either do that yourself or reach out for help and help as often the best way to accelerate that process. So doors to widths and weights physique University are open. Inside WWE, pu, you're gonna get a customized nutrition plan right off the bat. Now it doesn't have meal plans, because again, I said it earlier, I'm not a hypocrite. I don't give you meal plans. I give you the guidelines, the macros, the meal timing around your workouts, depending on your workout. I adjust it for your preferences, do you like more fat? Do you like more balanced? Are you from a Keto history, we kind of want to make that work so you can ease into it. Also in www you get live weekly coaching calls, custom courses on everything related to physique development. And then of course, a private community of like minded people are all working toward their best physique, and who also have fantastic ideas regarding meal planning and recipes. So just head to Whitson weights.com/physique. To learn more and join today, or click the link in my show notes. Again, that is Whitson weights.com/physique. Alright, in our next episode 183, the dark side of GLP, one weight loss drugs ozempic Manjaro sat down with Amy Wilson, you're going to learn the root causes of obesity and weight gain, the origins and current use of GLP one drugs like the some magnetite and tricep peptide based brand names that we just talked about, and others for diabetes, and now weight loss, their pros and cons. And what most people can do instead from a lifestyle perspective, because that's at the end of the day, what we are all trying to do here. Make sure to hit the Follow button right now in your podcast app to get notified when that comes out. And it supports the show when you subscribe or when you follow to the show. So please go ahead and take a moment to do that. As always stay strong, and I'll talk to you next time here on The Whitson weights podcast. Thank you for tuning in to another episode of wit's end weights. If you found value in today's episode, and know someone else who's looking to level up their wits or weights. Please take a moment to share this episode with them. And make sure to hit the Follow button in your podcast platform right now to catch the next episode. Until then, stay strong.

Philip Pape 6/14/24 Philip Pape 6/14/24

How NOT to be Skinny Fat and Weak with Adrian McDonnell | Ep 181

Are you struggling with body image? Are you tired of extreme diets? Wondering how to break free from skinny-fat struggles? Join Philip and fitness expert Adrian McDonnell as they discuss body image, fitness goals, and industry complexities. Adrian shares insights into common challenges like body dysmorphia and extreme dieting, emphasizing the importance of setting performance-based goals and a balanced approach to fitness. He breaks down the real reasons behind body struggles and offers practical advice for achieving a lean, well-muscled physique. Adrian also opens up about his journey with body dysmorphia, providing strategies for a healthier self-image.

Are you struggling with body image? Are you tired of extreme diets? Wondering how to break free from skinny-fat struggles?

Join Philip (@witsandweights) and fitness expert Adrian McDonnell as they discuss body image, fitness goals, and industry complexities. Adrian shares insights into common challenges like body dysmorphia and extreme dieting, emphasizing the importance of setting performance-based goals and a balanced approach to fitness. He breaks down the real reasons behind body struggles and offers practical advice for achieving a lean, well-muscled physique. Adrian also opens up about his journey with body dysmorphia, providing strategies for a healthier self-image. With his McLifestyle Coaching Method, Adrian helps clients worldwide transform their bodies and improve performance through personalized online coaching.

Today, you’ll learn all about:

3:19 Understanding "skinny fat" and its implications
6:01 Working out vs. training
8:32 Balancing cardio and strength training for optimal results
13:43 Tailoring fitness strategies for different experience levels
17:43 Addressing diverse fitness goals and avoiding extremes
20:41 Strictness vs. flexibility in training and nutrition approaches
21:57 Dieting among women and restoration phases
25:43 Concept of being "overfed but undernourished"
29:59 Adrian’s journey with body dysmorphia
35:44 Encouragement to focus on process over outcome.
38:34 Impact of social media and fitness industry on body dysmorphia
42:19 Importance of growth mindset and fulfillment in accomplishment
44:15 The question Adrian wished Philip had asked him
46:20 Where to find Adrian
46:48 Outro

Episode resources:

The Lifestyle Lifters Show (catch Philip on #122)
Adrian’s IG: @mclifestylefitness

Episode summary:

In a world obsessed with aesthetics and quick fixes, the journey to true fitness and mental resilience can often seem daunting. In this episode, guest Adrian McDonnell shares his transformative journey from struggling with body dysmorphia to becoming a global fitness coach. His philosophy is simple yet profound: prioritize performance over mere aesthetics. By doing so, improvements in strength and fitness naturally enhance physique and reduce body fat.

Adrian's story begins with his struggle with body dysmorphia, a mental health condition where a person is excessively concerned about and preoccupied with a perceived defect in their physical appearance. This struggle was the catalyst for his passion for fitness and ultimately led him to become a global fitness coach. Adrian emphasizes that focusing on performance rather than aesthetics can significantly improve one's self-image and help overcome societal pressures, particularly those amplified by social media.

One of the key topics discussed in the episode is the concept of being "skinny fat." This condition, where an individual appears thin but has a higher body fat percentage and lower muscle mass, often results from a lack of proper strength training and an overemphasis on cardio. Adrian explains the importance of structured strength training, which prioritizes compound lifts and muscle building, over random workouts. By adopting a focused strength training regimen and paying attention to diet, significant improvements in body composition can be achieved, even later in life.

Balancing weight training and cardio is another crucial aspect of achieving fitness goals. Adrian explains that both can be effectively integrated into a workout regimen. Muscle building through strength training and fat loss via a caloric deficit work together to create a toned physique. Practical advice is given on structuring workouts, including incorporating enjoyable activities like HIIT or spinning classes as finishers. Strategies for both beginners and more advanced trainees are highlighted, emphasizing the benefits of strength training, a high-protein diet, and maintaining a caloric deficit to optimize body composition.

Nutrition is a fundamental pillar in achieving fitness goals. Adrian discusses the importance of creating tailored fitness and nutrition plans for individuals with different body compositions and goals. Understanding one's unique history and the benefits of both strict and gradual approaches to habit changes are crucial. The conversation also highlights the challenges faced by women who have a history of frequent dieting and the need for a maintenance phase before entering a fat loss phase. The pitfalls of unsustainable rapid fat loss and the importance of proper transitioning to avoid rebound weight gain are also explored.

Adrian's personal story of competing in bodybuilding and battling body dysmorphia sheds light on the mental health challenges faced by many. Shifting focus from aesthetics to performance-based goals, he underscores the importance of mental resilience and adopting a balanced approach to fitness. Performance-based goals can provide a healthier mindset and a more sustainable fitness journey. This approach helps individuals focus on physical capabilities and overall well-being rather than merely achieving a certain look.

The impact of social media and societal pressures on body image and fitness goals is also addressed. Adrian introduces the three WWW questions: what do you want to do, what are you willing to do, and what won't you do, to help individuals set realistic and personal fitness goals. He emphasizes the importance of focusing on personal performance-based goals rather than purely aesthetic ones. This approach can foster a healthier mindset and a more sustainable fitness journey.

Lastly, the episode delves into the concept of happiness and well-being, with a focus on the PERMA model from positive psychology. The PERMA model encompasses five elements: Positive Emotion, Engagement, Relationships, Meaning, and Accomplishment. These components contribute to overall life satisfaction and happiness. Adrian shares insights on his approach to these concepts and how they can be integrated into one's fitness journey to foster overall life satisfaction and happiness.

In conclusion, this episode of the Lifestyle Lifters Show offers a comprehensive guide to transforming both body and mind through strength training. Adrian's journey from body dysmorphia to becoming a global fitness coach serves as an inspiration to many. His philosophy of prioritizing performance over aesthetics, understanding the significance of structured strength training, balancing weight training and cardio, and adopting a balanced approach to fitness and nutrition can significantly enhance one's fitness journey.

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Transcript

Adrian McDonnell 00:00

As a consequence of pushing yourself and getting stronger often your you know your body fat levels and your physique will actually coincide with that. So it's kind of like a catch 22. I feel that if you just focus more on your performance and now you watch your body can do rather than how it looks, they're not necessarily separate.

Philip Pape 00:18

Adrian McDonnell 02:12

Philip, thank you so much for the wonderful intro. And I'm so so delighted to be here. Thanks for having me on.

Philip Pape 02:18

Yeah, man. I actually forgot how we connected but we connected and we're like, let's let's swap on our podcast because they're very aligned. Yeah. Yeah,

Adrian McDonnell 02:26

I think it was two months ago now at this stage. So it's a while in the making. So it's great to refine the up and running for them.

Philip Pape 02:31

Exactly what the time zones and everything. And we wanted to do this back to back. Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

Adrian McDonnell 02:35

Even with it with the time changes they're trying to navigate because obviously at the end of the time chains in Eastern, I think in the middle of marriage, whereas in Ireland it is the end of marriage. So is like navigating a few things. But anyways, here we are. That's what matters most.

Philip Pape 02:49

Yeah, for sure. And you know, it's funny, you mentioned Ireland, totally off topic, but I recently answered a guest q&a listener q&a, and I know you just did your own q&a. And it's been a while since you had done one. And I said, Hey, it's always good to hear from people from across the pond. And he messaged me, he's like, actually, I'm in Nova Scotia. And that's very similar accent. Wow, okay. Yeah, it's pretty cool. So I gotta remember to put on my like, you know, no assumptions hat Next, when I hear and see people, yeah, you can never be too sure. Exactly, man. So let's dive into the topic. And I'm sure people learn all about you. And again, they should just check out your podcasts and they'll learn about you that way as well for that let's talk about skinny fat definitely a term I like to throw around I just had a cardiologist on the show and we were talking about how people can be you know, they can kind of look thin or look skinny have this you know, thin body, but really be unhealthy in many ways and often comes down to you know, the body composition. So sure, what does it mean to be skinny fat? And why do we care so much about this?

Adrian McDonnell 03:46

Yeah, fantastic question. Well, skinny fat essentially effed up as you you might be aware of, or maybe your listeners aren't, it's typically when you have a lower than normal amount of muscle mass, and a higher than normal amount of body fat. So this would have been me, you know, back in the day when I would have presented predominantly cardio base activity where no one would ever classify me as overweight. Yes, when I took my top off i that small little silver near body fat, and a lower the normal amount of muscle. So some people refer to it as like a mom, tome, a dad bod, feed and software. I'm in the middle, but I think we all get the idea.

Philip Pape 04:18

Yeah, yeah, Dad Bod that that resonates around that term all the time. Because my listeners know, I didn't I didn't even really lift properly until I was almost 40. Right? I'm like 43 now and in just two or three years, you can make massive improvements. Absolutely. Right. What contributes to skinny fat over time? How does it accelerate? And then you know, we'll obviously get into what we can do about it. Yeah,

Adrian McDonnell 04:40

fantastic. So I guess the root cause of being skinny fat Phillip comes from having a lack of muscle across your entire body. So often people they might be quote unquote, working out rather than training. And an example of this would be you know, first of all, I just preface by saying something is better than nothing. However, with that being said often might be a case he could go to like a group Been in class and you could do an hour cardio. Or it could be a case that you go to a group quote unquote, hit class. And it's like 45 seconds on 15 seconds off and you're doing mountain climbers, you're doing burpees, you're doing box jumps, you're in all of these fat burning exercises. However, none of these are really contributing to building some lean muscle, which is the root cause of being skinny fat. So what I would suggest for anyone in this category, we can go on to solutions and a wide OB rather than focusing on you know, burning calories through cardio through, you know, quote, unquote, hate classes, shift and put a big, big emphasis, which you're speaking about in your podcast, as well set up I know, uncompounded lifts on strength train, just in general getting stronger, because what you want to do is you want to shift your body composition to favor most of the last more than body fat, you use your diet as a means to you know, drop body fat, get a bit leaner tone up and use your training as a means to build muscle not to burn calories. So that will kind of be the root cause I would say like the wrong type of training and lack of emphasis on strength on strength work. And then we can also go into nutrition as well. But that's like just a brief overview. Yeah.

Philip Pape 06:01

And there's so many good concepts there. And they're gonna, they're gonna go off into different tangents when we talk about principles. The first one you mentioned, was working out versus training. And we can't emphasize that enough, under percent. Let's expand on that, like, just so people know, even besides the cardio, let's say they do go to the gym, they're like, No, but I've been lifting weights for 10 years, or I've been doing CrossFit or I'm like slinging these barbells. You know, em wraps. What is the difference between that and what you're talking about with training? Yeah,

Adrian McDonnell 06:26

I used to I used to work out I used not to train I used to go to the gym, I might start out with doing you know, bicep curls, then we could do some calf raises, then you could go on to the PEC tech, and then you're walking around, you might do but a core work. I know two workouts ever look like the same. But when you think about what's Train, train, and like it is a skill in itself it up. And suppose that you want to learn become fluent in Spanish. And imagine you practice Spanish Monday, Wednesday, Friday, and you do that consistently for we'll say three to four months. Whereas me I do Spanish on a Monday I do French on a Wednesday, I do German on a Friday, by the end of the three months who is going to be more fluent and better at Spanish strain train is exactly the same. So working out effectively is where you're seeing one thing on YouTube and you do that for day one, you see something else and iG you do that for day two, you you know you do a fancy circle, you saw an influencer do on day three, and no two workouts are ever the same. So it doesn't even have to mean that you're doing excess amounts of cardio, but it's more so like you're going in with a structure with a routine without a purpose.

Philip Pape 07:26

Yeah, and how many times have you been on a, like a discovery call or something like that? Where and I get with women a lot and they say, Well, do you know such and such workout program on YouTube? They always ask me and I'm like, I can't keep up with them. Because there's so many and I have no idea of the quality of it. Right?

Adrian McDonnell 07:43

Yeah. And I could look, I guess the idea is you said though the principle at least people are working out their training. And it's better than nothing. But I guess if it's the case that we want, this is a results business too. And if you do want to optimize that, you know, you don't need to sacrifice one to get the other.

Philip Pape 07:58

Yeah, for sure. And you know, results business. And you mentioned skill development. recently. It's been a while since I read atomic habits, James clear, everybody seems to now. But I was I was refreshing through the concepts. And one concept I always love is the compound interest of your habits of like, in one year, if you just improve 1% Every day, you're 30 700%. You know, you'd like 37 times better. Yeah. Yeah. Like I said, yeah, yeah. So like you said, what, even training three days a week doing progressive program? You know, what does that compound to? Yeah, absolutely. So there's a few different aspects of this too, because you mentioned spinning cardio classes, stuff like that. What do people say? Well, you know, I enjoy that stuff, or I enjoy doing cardio, or I can't work out. I can't just lift weights, because, you know, either it's boring, or I don't like to be by myself or whatever other reason, you know, they like the group classes.

Adrian McDonnell 08:49

Interesting. Yeah. Fantastic question. So with that, I don't think it needs to be an either or like it's not, it doesn't have to be a case that you do weight or cardio it, there's a lot to be said he can do both, but rather like the first of all gotta just as you say, on your podcast setup, you got to reverse engineer, boss, the ultimate goal there. And often people say they wanted to use words like they want to shape they want to tone they want to get leaner. When you think about it, though, what gives your body that shape. And that tone, it's having muscle in the absence of body fat, you better more so by reps and weight to lose body type or being in a caloric deficit. So you can use your cardio as a means to get you in that caloric deficit. But if you really want to have that shape in that tone, that is where you know, some structured and routine strength work will come into play. So if someone and I think that's important, too, as coaches that I know a lot of, you know, for clients, they always like to finish a workout on the high and they just feel like they've achieved something even if they did a good workout, like almost get that sweat on. So if you do fall into that category, and you know, like you're spinning classes here like your head workouts, what you could do is add a five or 10 minute finisher at the end of your strength workout and that way you're getting the best of both worlds. You're doing some structured work, you're also you know, getting your heart rate elevated which is many benefits to itself on your end. Enjoying the feeling you're enjoying the process. But the big big bonus will be, you know, provide your father in a good program, you're also seeing results.

Philip Pape 10:07

Yeah, that's that's a practical kind of your lifestyle way to do this that I love that example because adding something in that you enjoy even if it you know we're not, we always talk about practical versus optimal versus like 100% thing, right? And as long as you're prioritizing the thing that's most important, you've got a lot of room and flexibility to kind of fit other things in without overdoing it without overdoing it. Exactly. Yeah, doing it. Yeah, one of one of the students in my group program, she, she had a similar concern. She said, You know, I love to do these group classes, but I also know the value of training. So she came up with her own idea to, like workout at home, one day a week, go to the gym, do one lifting session a week. And then the other day is the group class. She's like, I'm just gonna do the group classes. And that's great, because now you're lifting twice a week, and were you doing zero before? Absolutely,

Adrian McDonnell 10:57

yeah, no, and there's a social element to it as well. Some for members are exactly the same. They might like combine both and unlock at the end of the day, it's getting the best of both worlds. But it's just making sure that you keep the goal, the goal. At the same time, you're not always program hopping, for sure.

Philip Pape 11:12

You mentioned building building muscle versus losing fat. So we talked about skinny fat, when you recommend to clients who let's say they're a noob, right, they're just getting started for the first time. That's a certain scenario that's maybe a little distinct from an intermediate to advanced trainer who's been doing it a while. So let's let's do the different scenarios here. For a brand new person. And let's say they, they feel that they have 20 to 30 pounds of weight to lose fat to lose, which is not uncommon, right? Like unless you're in the more obese kind of metabolically unhealthy range or a different population. You often have like men, who are you work with men and women, right? Or just women? Yeah, okay. Yeah. And so you have men who are like 25%, body fat, kind of maybe pushing 30, but they're not like, you know, massively overweight, but they need to lose, they need to lose some weight to get into a healthy state, phase wise, go ahead, like periodization. And phase wise, what would you recommend

Adrian McDonnell 12:03

the good news, the good news is like, if you're someone new to the gym, and you don't have a whole lot of experience, you can actually optimize both, like they are the champagne years, you need to take the most that make the most of so what I would do in that situation is you know, if this individual and say This guy is 25%, body fat, first of all, what we're speaking about, get them lift some weights, get them stronger, that's gonna give your body that shape and that tone, and then like a caloric deficit of Rafi below, kind of maybe 20% or so. So let's just say the maintenance calories are 2500. If we reduce those by 500 to 2000 a day, optimize your protein intake, all of a sudden, now you've gone from probably being under fed and over nourished to properly fueled, you're lifting weights, you have a good structure, you have a high protein diet, and that individual is gonna see changes in both muscle mass and reduction in body fat, even though he is in a caloric deficit, the more advanced and you know, experience where the more nuanced you have to be, but I would say that'd be like a good practical application standpoint, for someone without a whole lot of prior experience, get your lifting weights, you know, build your program around the fundamental compound lifts dependent on your experience level, high protein diet, you know, macro, and micro and nutrient dense foods. And then just making sure that you know, your your caloric amount is in alignment with your body weight and with your goals. Sure,

Philip Pape 13:16

yeah. And so they do they do all these things super easy right now. I'm just kidding. It's always simple but easy. One at a time. Yeah. Right. Yeah. And then they then they're, they've been training for, let's say, a year or two is when you've seen like, tremendous progress in that first couple of years when you've been doing it. And they got to what they consider lean ish, right? 15%, maybe 10% body fat number doesn't matter as much as like your own, how you feel and how you look and all that perform. What would then over year over year for the next 510 years, right? What would be a good amount of time spending muscle versus losing fat? Let's assume they want to cycle and they don't want to just sit at maintenance most of the time? Oh,

Adrian McDonnell 13:54

that's a that's a difficult question. I guess it would depend on the body composition fed up because like, if you're someone who you've more body fat to lose than muscle to gain, oftentimes I find from a confidence perspective, an individual's confidence will go from a five to an eight or nine when they start seeing themselves like they've never seen self before. So all of a sudden, they're you know, seeing more visibility in their abs, they're seeing more definition, I would almost suggest in that situation, get to like, you know, 10 to 12 for 10 to 15%, body fat, body fat for a guy, maybe 20 to 22% for female and then focus on doing what we call a lean bulk or lean gaining phase, where a lot of new research shows with our academies where, you know, the caloric surplus required to gain muscle. There was like two studies and one group is in like an excess of 600 calorie surplus. The other one was like maybe a minimum of five or 10%. I don't know the exact numbers, but both groups they essentially gained more or less the same amount of muscle mass for the group with a higher calorie caloric surplus, a significant increase in fat gain on top of that, so what I would do with that individual be in crease confidence reduce her body body fat, get them to like a live Saturday never what we call and then that way then you can focus on Okay, now we've we've reached goal eight, let's focus on adding some lean muscle. And this is like essentially the lifestyle cycle of a lifter you. You spend time code and body fat together but leaner, you've spent time you know, building some lean muscle, and then when you get your body fat levels high enough and you want to drop down again, you have a better basic go off, you looked at it better. And it's like just rinse and repeat cycle. Something similar to that. But again, it depends on the goals. Some people just want to be healthy, they want to be fit, they want to be able to play with their children, they don't want to be you know, stepping up and sage, a measure and every Marcin and Graham and for those individuals. So it's a case of James clear, like literally dialed in, what are the weekly non negotiables? What are the non negotiables you're gonna accomplish and every single week, and that could be three to four workouts, it could be 10k steps, it could be, you know, 8080 20 am nutrient dense foods, and just being consistent with that. But the more dialed anyway, the more nuanced you have to be, the more you have to like look at the details. So it depends on your your goals as well, because, for instance, I just had a consultation with a guy and he said, like, Look, I just want to be, I don't want to be weighing everything out. I don't want this to be taken over my life. So what do you want to do? What are you willing to do? What won't you do? And for some people, you don't need to be like this diet in that perfect. And the the the results been your probably your results are going to take that bit longer. But for someone who wants to take more seriously, that's going to be looking at like, you know, optimizing your train and your macros your protein and everything. Oh,

Philip Pape 16:31

yeah. So I love the what you talked about with having non negotiables. And that's what comes up to me is process process oriented goals, right? Like, we talked about goal setting, we talked about outcomes, right. But then there has to be some sort of values that drive that goal. And that's like your, your, your why, right? Like you can really dig in on that why. And then either have, like you said, metrics you're going after, which are still goals, but they're in the short term, and they're measurable, maybe daily. And then, you know, process oriented outcomes, which happen constantly, you know, you constantly get the win. So for those listening to you like that's a great, even just starting right now, today, listening to this show coming up with that first, non negotiable, and it might be sleep, it might be I'm gonna hit the gym, you know, three days this week. And so what are you going to do about it? Those Listen, like, are you going to schedule that in? Put it number one on the list? Right?

Adrian McDonnell 17:22

Yeah, um, it's just focusing on the person you want to become, like, see yourself as the person you want to become. And then every act you take, it's either helping or hindering that progress doesn't mean you have to be perfect. But just as long as you're moving in the right direction, as long as you're making those changes, like that's the ultimate wave of making that lifestyle change.

Philip Pape 17:40

For sure. Yeah, we love that. It's no quick fixes here. It's a lifestyle. So you mentioned, I want to address a couple more scenarios. Let's talk about men. First, I have seen the spectrum that you've got the men who want to get super strong, they want to push their PRs, they understand the value of eating and gaining and even just absolute force production from having more mass, even if fat comes along for the ride, knowing they can cut it off later. And they kind of push themselves up into this range of like, let's say guy who's five, nine, you're good to inches, right? So right, yeah, a guy who's five nine, who wants to push up into that well over 200 pound range, and his bodyweight to kind of push his deadlift and his squat. And then at some point is going to have to bring that off. And then you have the guys who just want the six pack. And it's like, you know, I don't know if if there's a if there's an overall blueprint, you generally advise to people I know, it depends on your goals, but like to prevent people from going too far in one direction, or like making it much harder on themselves later on, you know what I'm saying? Yeah,

Adrian McDonnell 18:39

it's, I think it's just navigating the conversation. And sometimes like just getting into their psychology and their way of actually what they really want to accomplish. And then from that, like, you have to reverse engineer. Okay, so he said, you wanted to accomplish this, in order for us to do that these are some of our weekly or daily, non negotiables, we need to incorporate so for the individual who's five foot nine and over 200 pounds, he considered lift his way to consider lift heavy, but it's more so optimizing nutrition. So he's in, you know, a slight calorie deficit. Whereas maybe for the other individual who might be a bit skinny, but quote, unquote, as a six pack. It's just a polite way to say we might want to gain some maths while you know, maintaining that six pack, but just be open to the fact you might gain some body fat on top of that, for sure.

Philip Pape 19:21

So you said reverse engineer, I love that that hits the engineer button for me, but and I love doing that right? Working from the end and going back and then you've got you're basically starting to constrain yourself in this envelope of reality that says like, okay to get here, this is going to happen. And these are the trade offs and you can't deny that like that is reality. And to do something different means you have to change the choices and the paths along the way you have

Adrian McDonnell 19:44

to change and it doesn't mean you have to change them all at once though, like that. I know that's something you preach as well, like it could literally be that you know, you incorporate a new habit every single week. I think it depends. I was well fed up because some individuals they weren't aware of just I don't like the all or nothing approach but For some individuals, they're like, I want to be balanced. But God forbid, they've been out of balance for, you know, 612 months where they actually have been the opposite direction. So to put them on, like maybe a stricter approach at the start might work better. So they see it quick when they start seeing results. And then you can have like periods of micro imbalance to get macro balance. So you could actually go, you know, and really, rather than dipping your toes, you go all in for maybe 90 days, and then slowly transition out as you start seeing results. Whereas for other people that might just want to take that slower approach. But the trade off is, you're not going to get, you know, quick wins as frequently and the results are going to take longer. So no approach isn't necessarily right or wrong. It's just rather like, what's your goal? What's your vision and what's really driving you?

Philip Pape 20:41

Yeah, I love that micro balance and macro balance. I like I like that idea. And even the idea of balance is like, it's become a buzzword where nothing's gonna be, you know, this perfect pie that's all sliced up equally. Exactly, you know, but you're right strictness, we sometimes like I use it to, I'll say, well, we don't do too restrictive diets. But there's a level of strictness that can be helpful, especially when you have a coach or somebody kind of looking over your shoulder to support you if you fall a little bit out of that boundary. So that's a really good message. Because fat loss, for example, I have people reaching out all the time about rapid fat loss. And I'm like, well, let's sit on the brakes for a bit and just understand what you're trying to accomplish. And then if they're like, you know, I lift I do this, I do this, I do this, and I haven't been dieting in a long time. And I've been tracking and I know my maintenance calories. And I'll do it for three weeks. And I'll use refeeds. I'm like, alright, you know what you're doing? Like that'll work? You know, that's fine. Yeah, sure. And go way beyond that. 1% and probably still hold on your lean mass. For somebody else who has been yo yo dieting, and they don't have to protein and anything, they're like, I want to do rapid fat loss. I'm like, No, you want a quick fix crash diet, that's not gonna work.

Adrian McDonnell 21:45

So the big thing for that individual is they they might know how to do the rapid, but they don't know how to transition out of it. And that's unfortunately, why so many people rebound after an unsustainable fat loss phase. Yeah,

Philip Pape 21:57

there you go. For sure. And so speaking of women, I know we weren't speaking of women, but women tend to have the history of more frequent dieting, we just know that for a fact. And oftentimes, you know, women tend to want more fat loss, men tend to want more muscle gain. What is your general advice to most women who come in who have that history of dieting, they still are not happy with their body image and their size. And you know, they're like, I've just got to lose the weight, right? And they're open to strength training open using barbells, or open to die, protein and all that good stuff. Where would you start? Let's say after the initial maintenance phase, let's assume we go through like a maintenance phase. But exactly, I don't want to go

Adrian McDonnell 22:37

ahead. Yeah. No, that that was literally it. Like, just get to know their history. First of all, like, what's your current nutrition looking like? And for some people, it might be a case, you just put them straight into, like, are you actually ready to go into a dieting phase, and you have to be like, mentally, sometimes it can be, there's got to be an element of hunger, so mentally after we prepared for that, so I would just, you know, go through the conversation, what's there, Wigan, and assuming that, you know, they haven't been following these restrictive crazy diets for a while, then you might like go through a restoration phase before going into a fat loss phase. But for some women, it's almost the opposite. And it might sound counterintuitive, where like, I had one client, Becky, and she's, she was a vegan, and you know, even very, very cleanly training six days a week, a lot of cardio, a lot of activity and 1100 1200 calories, she wasn't losing weight. Now, when someone says that, to me, I'm like, Okay, you might think you're you might assume you're consuming 11 or 1200 calories, not losing weight. But I genuinely love sharing my fitness pal that got her to upload photos, everything was dialed in. So over a 12 week period, we increase her from I think, maybe 1100 to 18 honors, and her weight went from like maybe 76, down to 69. So like that was just like a restoration phase more so because she just been dialed in at, you know, redundancy, low calories and over exercising for two years. So I really do think it does depend on the individual, whereas someone else might be a case that they're eating quote, unquote, healthy, but they're not losing weight. And they might actually be eating healthy when you look at their food or it could be something like part it could be some fruit in the morning. It might be some, you know, brown bread at lunchtime at some soup. But it's like typically like a low protein diet with like lots of high calorie dense food like knots like dark chocolate and so on. And if you just literally changed the caloric and the type of food that they're eating to favor more higher protein, higher fiber, those individuals they can actually drop that body fat and they're probably it's more so like their nutrition they need to diet it on. So I do think that a bit depends on the individual Long story short, they're on like just what their history is, what their goals are and what they genuinely would have tried in the bus.

24:38

Hi, my name is Lisa and I'd like to give a big shout out to my nutrition coach development with his coaching I have lost 17 pounds he helped me identify the reason that I wanted to lose weight and it's very simple longevity. I want to be healthy, active and independent until the day I die. He introduced me to this wonderful Apple macro factor I got that part of my nutrition figured out along with that is The movement part of nutrition, there's a plan to it and really helped me with that. The other thing he helped me with was knowing that I need to get a lot of steps in. So the more steps you have, the higher your expenditure is, and the easier it is to lose weight when it's presented to you like he presents it, it makes even more sense. And the other thing that he had was a hunger guide. And that really helped me so thank you. But

Philip Pape 25:22

it always depends on the individual for sure. And these examples, you talk about where someone has been, quote unquote dieting and quote unquote 1100 calories, is are rampant, like these stories are super, super common. And you're right, the first question is, are you really consuming that? And it's not that we're trying to gaslight people, we're trying to recognize that there's a gap in information. And there's some extra knowledge we can contain that we can gather about ourselves in our bodies. And that's very empowering for men and women to know, oh, you know what, I've actually been consuming 2000 calories. Now Adrienne has me consuming 1800 but unknown 1800. And that's why I'm kind of losing maybe right or whatever. Sure. Yeah. And doing it in a nourishing way. So let's let's talk about nourishment. You talked about overfed but undernourished before so we're trying to flip that around to properly fed but nourished, right?

Adrian McDonnell 26:10

Yeah, absolutely. So like, really, it comes down to some of our printables or microwaves are fed. And so first of all, a plant and a protein and every single meal. So of all the meals, men and women, we often find that breakfast tends to be the most challenging one, that an individual gets their protein. And because it's often like just they're on the go, they might have some oatmeal or some porridge. It could be like Syria themself. And I get have to really be specific and dialed in with your protein and breakfast. But for any individual, well, I would recommend assuming that you're, you know, you're not overweight, take your body weight and multiply that by two. And that'd be a good, good target for you in terms of your daily protein intake. So if you're an 80 kilogram individual may, that'd be roughly 160 grams. If you're 60 kilogram female, that'd be roughly 120 grams. And once you know that number, just ask yourself, how many meals a day are you typically having, if you're having for me today, divide that number by four and that's roughly the amount of protein you want to have permeate. So for me at 160 grams a day divided by for me is very, very simple. 40 grams of protein. Now all of a sudden, how do I get 40 grams of protein? Well, that could be you know, 300 grams of Greek yogurt. It could be two scoops of protein and Kobe, two eggs and five egg whites, it could be 150 grams of chicken 150 grams, the sake it's actually not that hard once, as you say, further up, you reverse engineer. So that'd be the first principle plant or protein in every meal. The next one being a plant. So plant either fruit or vegetables. So what's your breakfast, it could be some fruit, blueberries with the porridge for lunch or Kobe, you know, some spinach, some salad, some veggies, etc. But they're the reason these things are important is because protein and fiber, so protein and plant, they will help keep you fuller, for longer. The ultimate goal of dropping body fat is you should aim to eat as much food as possible by staying within your caloric image. And a good way to do that is high protein, high fiber and also drink lots of water.

Philip Pape 27:59

Yeah, awesome. Yeah, I mean, we preach exactly the same thing. And just to convert the numbers for Imperial, right. You mentioned two grams per kilogram. That's like one gram or one. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. No worries. There was a study, I think in the latest body by science. I don't know if you subscribe to that. Dr. Bill Campbell. Oh, yeah. Very good. Yeah. No, I was in that I was in that an issue in May I just to toot my own horn, I was in there, talking about ABS and something on carbs. But anyway, the recent issue, he reviewed a study on protein that showed that two populations consuming the same calories, one that had low protein, one had high protein, their body composition improved, even in the lack of strength training, which is incredible. It just shows the value of having that high protein in your diet. Yeah, crazy. Yeah. I can I can look it up for you see what the study is? Because we're a big fan of using evidence. And like you mentioned earlier about gaining muscle and not getting too much fat. I think you're talking about the helms

Adrian McDonnell 28:56

absolute headache disorder. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Yeah.

Philip Pape 28:59

I mean, we can if I can remember, I can throw those throw those in here. Yeah, yeah. So I don't know what else there is with skinny fat other than, you know, get started today, like training and building muscle, right? Yeah, for

Adrian McDonnell 29:10

sure. Like, literally, if there is a three step process, I would say, you know, lift weights, focus on the components, which is your watch yourself, watch, you're always speaking about not saying to cut out or, you know, to remove the cardio, but rather, I'd say, spend double the amount of time lifting weights you do doing cardio. So if you do two hours or one hour of cardio a week, try to two hours away two weeks, and then just finally, nourish your body property by adding the high protein, high fiber, nutrient dense foods and just making sure you're consuming the right amount for you and for your specific goals. Beautiful

Philip Pape 29:41

and I'm sure you found that that that comes up almost every podcast episode you've ever done to some extent, and we have to revisit it over and over because I think it's good to be able to know

Adrian McDonnell 29:49

what record repetition is the mother thing as sometimes that we need to be reminded more than we need to be taught.

Philip Pape 29:55

I know we remind ourselves as well. Absolutely. So let's Would you know, a little more psychology and get into the Body Dysmorphia topic? I think that's a really important one. Because when we talk about skinny fat, are we even use labels for shapes of bodies? Are we talking about body composition? Everything else? Yeah, there are a lot of benefits beyond physique, right? We can talk about all the benefits of having muscle mass to the date, you want to be lifting to, like, I always say, I want to die doing a deadlift when I'm like 99, or whatever. But you've had a history with, you know, body image challenges. So tell us about your experience. I'll just leave it open, tell us your story, and then how it shaped your approach to where you got to today?

Adrian McDonnell 30:32

Yeah, for sure. I'm not sure really sure when it started. So I guess when when you initially started lifting weights, and you see yourself look like you've never seen yourself before, I would have almost tied a lot of my identity to my body fat percentage. So when I was looking leaner, I'd almost like I'd obviously be happier then. But then if I gained a small bit of body fat or you had a bit of fun every now and then you went for you know takeout with your family or you just had some drinks at the weekend, and then you woke up the following morning, you're feeling somewhat bloated. It's almost like your own worst enemy is living between your two ears. Like you're feeling guilty, you're feeling ashamed, like, what are you doing, and I fell into this road where I would nearly have to like exercise to undo quote unquote, undo the damage of you know, the the naira which involve an avocado or maybe the odd takeaway. And I would say then, Dhaka to its height nearly last year, not necessarily the Avocode site, but definitely the body dysmorphia site. Because I competed for the first time in bodybuilding. And it probably wasn't something that I was fully prepared for, like I just, I didn't even intend on competing last year, but I just did a mini course and then that transition to well, you know, bought it. And then all of a sudden, my year, there's a natural body bodybuilding competition on maybe seven or eight weeks from now, when I was already in decent shape after a photoshoot. And I got my body fat levels to you know, single digits and you know, basically peel to the bone. But the aftermath, then, when you see yourself looking like that, and you like tie a lot of your identity to who you are the type of person you are to having that low body fat percentage. When I started, like gaining a small bit of body fat, I did find it hard to accept. And this I came also, which again, I don't think I'll compete again, but I just an obsession with food, like every year a day is literally thinking about your next meal. And that was a something I found quite difficult. So thankfully, last year, I was working with a mentor, business mentor, but he also competed themselves. And I just spoke to him about that. And he said, you know, that was some of the challenges that he himself also went through. And one thing that surprised me that he told me was shift your focus away from how you look. And rather than setting physique based goals, like I want to be x weight, or X body fat percentage, yes, that's all good. But why not folks to like a performance based code. So actually, just last week, I hit one of my big performance based goals that I would have set this year, but had in mind last year, we're gonna sub 20 minute five kilometer run. And just when you shift your focus away from how you looked, how you perform, you're getting out of your own head, you're focused on getting stronger in the gym. And that does require that you're fueling your body properly, rather than like just restricting yourself. And to be honest, man, ever since I've done that, and just had that mindset, particularly the last couple of months, like mentally I'm feeling much better physically, sure, have a bit more body fat, but like, I just I feel like I'm able to perform better, I feel much stronger, and just in a better headspace overall. So what I would say to any man, I love that, yeah, the visual and that's Danny, anyone with these, there's more to you than your image, there's more to you than your body weight, there's more to you than your body fat. And like just focus on what you're what you can, you can actually do with the right approach with the right mindset. And like Food is fuel at the end of the day. It's actually needed to survive. And, you know, yes, it is nice to have a lean and an aesthetic look with your body. But don't get to a point where it's almost like it's over consumed in your life and you're actually not able to, you know, get some element of enjoyment fromage.

Philip Pape 33:55

Yeah, man, thanks. Thanks for sharing that. And it sounds like you know, it was recent. And even though you know, your, your highly accomplished, established coach, you know, we're not perfect. We're human beings ready. We all struggle with things. For sure. Yeah,

Adrian McDonnell 34:07

last year is at its peak. Like I'm not saying it's ever gone, because, you know, some some days it still does come back. But assess yourself talk. It's your mindset. And and I'm definitely like, in a better, much, much better position, even now to speak about it than there would have been, like last year after the body. But it wasn't always a lack of energy. It was a lack of drive a lack of motivation. Like, it's hard because you're almost living in this bubble where every day is like, you can nearly predict how the day's gonna go before it even starts to train. When it's your steps. It's your cardio, it's your routine and stay in it stay out. And I just found it hard. And when you're in this problem, you're just like so dialed in, to suddenly transition out of the year at all of athletes who they get some element of depression or a year and a lot of CEOs or business owners, they sell their multi million or billion dollar business, but then they just they tie so much their identity into that thing that they don't even think about the aftermath. And while I'm not the same In the sense of the bodybuilder, but it was more so the routine and something that I was married to that when I to get out of that. And then all of a sudden you see yourself gaining some weight, it can be sometimes hard to take it on prepare yourself mentally for it. But with that being said, I'm so grateful to have gone through because now like I've become a much, much better coach. And I can relate to some of my clients who have some of the seminary challenges, I had a conversation with a guy recently, something similar, or even like just anywhere in a fat loss phase like you, okay, you're feeling hungry, you're in a calorie deficit comment, that's a good thing. It's a sign your metabolism is adapting, you're dropping weight, you're dropping body fat. And it's a sign that it's working. But look, it was an experience, man. And and it was it's been great to go through them. And it's also great that, you know, I'm least on on the other side of us are moving in the right direction, to say the least.

Philip Pape 35:43

Yeah, I mean that there are a lot of lessons there. For folks who including the idea that Think twice before you go after an extreme goal of any kind, whether it's athletic or otherwise, like you said, even in business where that actually when we talked about balance before, that is something that can shift your balance to where you're, you know, consumed or completely focused on this. And it doesn't happen. Like, like you said, there are some positives, I'm sure you learned a lot through that process. I remember talking to Steve Hall, and I know you talked to him as well, like he's a big fan of, of making yourself more resilient and kind of gritty, through these kinds of things, but not letting them become your life forever.

Adrian McDonnell 36:21

You know, for sure. Yeah. And just not wrapping all of your identity into one thing identity.

Philip Pape 36:26

Yeah, sure. Yeah, physique based goals instead of performance based goals. It's funny, you mentioned all that about body fat, I just did a training like yesterday in my community about body fat, because people are always asking like, about body fat percentage, and how to measure and everything. The overall theme was like, it's just a little number. It's not very accurate. But we can use it to tell trend. But let's not use that as our goal. Let's not use body fat as our goal. Let's let's do the more deeper goals. Yeah, you're emphasizing that.

Adrian McDonnell 36:51

But the ironic thing is, that often when you focus on the performance based goals, as a consequence of pushing yourself and getting stronger, often your you know, your body fat levels and your physique will actually coincide with that. So it's kind of like a catch 22, I feel that if you just focus more on your performance, and how you watch your body can do rather than how it looks. They're not necessarily, they're not necessarily separate. For sure.

Philip Pape 37:15

I think that can be very helpful for folks who want to build muscle and are afraid of gaining weight at all, like on purpose, because I remember the first time I did that, and I gain weight on purpose. It was like it was liberating at the same time, but very scary, right? Because I'm here I am drinking whole milk or pounding down all these calories. And I'm like, I'm actually gaining weight on purpose, but doing it in a controlled way along with the training, which I had never done before. So we you know, when you say focus on everything, but the scale weight other than a tool to kind of measure retro actively that you've got the right calories and things, it can be very liberating, because then you're like, Oh, my, my lifts are going up. My energy is going up. I'm getting more sleep. My hormone markers are better, like all those things can. Yeah, especially especially when you're gaining right? Because then everything is kind of empty. Yeah,

Adrian McDonnell 38:01

for sure. For sure. Yeah. No, it's It's, it's the lifesaver, the lifecycle of an F show. We're saying at the start for the

Philip Pape 38:08

improvement, the improvement season, you wouldn't be living more in the improvement season than the cutting season, I would hope.

Adrian McDonnell 38:13

Absolutely. Yeah. Over the long term. And that's something you see a lot of elite athletes over here in Dubai, and a lot of them are saying, like the ratio of time they spend in a fat loss versus a you know, an improvement phase is what you're saying it's like, minimum for some people that's like six to one in terms of years. And for others, people might be like a three to one. But really, there's a lot to be said of just building a good solid foundation and base by packet on muscle. And then once you have that base, you know, that's when you can focus on like trimming it down while we're speaking on at the start.

Philip Pape 38:43

Yeah, what about let's let's talk. Let's go back to women. Because I tend to see, I tend to see Body Dysmorphia more common in women, but obviously with men who've gone through something like you did, and I think there's a big influence because of social media. So let's get into that thought of those thorny waters of the fitness industry, social media, how they contribute to this, how we should maybe put our critical thinking hats on even like men and women listening to this and looking at their content in their feed. Like, is there an approach they might take? That's a healthier approach to help them out?

Adrian McDonnell 39:13

Yeah, well, like social media. First of all, it's a highlight reel, and like, so all you you have to ask yourself, like, what did that individual do? Or what does he or she have to do in order to maintain that body fat level? Like for me last year, this was you know, relentless fat loss phase of God 15 weeks plus, but it was like everything was dialed in to a tee like 15k steps, cardio strength training and like every single day, so the amount of hours you're putting in a week for that, like, I love the three www questions. What do you want to do, what he went into What won't you do? And if you have that, you know, body dysmorphia, and you're looking at that individual, but then if you were told that okay, if you want to get there Susan, are you with To train seven days a week, are you willing to walk 15k steps, so you're in to do you know, 610 sessions and five cardio sessions per week. And if that's something you're willing to do you know what you might get there down the line. But for a lot of people, when you actually understand the trade off, not to mention your energy that was being on the floor, like, often, it's actually you probably don't want to get to that place. So that's what I would say there. It's like, just really social media can be at higher rate. And also you have to understand like, the way the way lightness go now and like, you see people, literally, it's like the lightning in a hotel jam, or they optimize everything, like, you can look very, very good and deceptively good, just for like, one fold, or you don't always look like that. So they're just some ways that I would say like, what's that individual have to do to maintain that shape? And that physique? Yeah,

Philip Pape 40:49

and it is, it is. Incredibly, I guess it's scary how the algorithms are designed so well, to push you down a rabbit hole, more and more in that direction. You know, as soon as you even tap on an image and Instagram, and look at it for so many seconds, the algorithm has said okay, engagement is high. I'm going to show you more like that. And even more extreme versions of that is just keep you hooked on the thing. So just people are this is like the extreme of the extreme. It's not reality.

Adrian McDonnell 41:18

Yeah, yeah, for sure. For sure. And that's not to say there's anything wrong with like, you know, striving to become the best version of yourself, but you run your own race, run your own race, don't compare your chapter one to someone else's chapter five, because also, of course, be there like that individuals been training for 10 years longer than you. And sometimes, you know, for someone listen to this, you're like, God, am I seeing results, sometimes they would fall into this bracket, but you just have to, you might be doing anything wrong, you just need to expand the timeframe. Give yourself a bit more of a runway. And like over time, you can you know, optimize your performance, your physique and how you look but you know, you can you just focus on yourself. That's what I find works best. And also one other thing with this, and this is huge, and Dubai, Phillip, and we got to agree, they're like TRT testosterone steroids. In the gym that I trained in, I would say nearly 90% of people are using some form of, you know, some form of optimization there. So it's not even a level playing field anymore. And you don't know what anyone is doing on social media. So again, no need to compare, you just focus on yourself and running your own race.

Philip Pape 42:19

Awesome. So speaking and focusing on yourself. Do you have any advice for people who are not focusing on themselves at the moment and are concerned with whether it's their body image skinny, fat, even even to the level of dysmorphia, maybe they've had a history of that, like, what what's one piece of advice you'd give them today, maybe it's a, maybe it's a little bit of psychology or mindset, maybe it's a specific tip that to get started,

Adrian McDonnell 42:42

just what I was saying focus on your performance rather than your focus on how your body can perform rather than how you can look and set a performance based goal that it's going to stretch you. And it could just be a case you do 10 bodyweight chin ups, it could be a case that you do deadlift, double your body weight, but just focus on those kinds of goals. And that way, you're going to start loving the process of just working out more. And that's the ultimate goal with this, like fitness. It's not a finite game, there's not a winner or loser. It's an infinite game, the goal should be to keep on playing every single day. And I think a good way of doing that is like just setting yourself goals that's going to get you up in the morning to get you excited about your workouts. And something you've worked you can work towards. And if that is a challenge yours, you know, speak to coaches like Philip and he can ensure, you know, guide you in the right direction in terms of like, what to follow what to focus on. And sometimes you just need a second opinion to get out of your own head. And also understand these thoughts are normal, like I myself fully gone through them. I know a lot of other coaches as well, who would have had some other similar challenges. So don't feel you're alone in this situation. And sometimes it might just be a case of reaching out and speaking to an individual. And, you know, maybe get them to outsource some of your programs, some of your training for you. So you're not only stuck in your own head,

Philip Pape 43:50

I love that these these thoughts are definitely normal. You're not alone, seek help. There's help that comes in so many ways. Don't you know, don't think you have to hire a one on one coach. There are many, many ways to do it from the podcast, to group communities, to group programs to one on one to all sorts of ways to get help. And you're not alone. Pick something that can stretch, you focus on the process, and then you're going to start to love the process. And that's how the results come very exciting. Man. I want to ask you this. I do ask it of all guests. What did you wish I had asked that we didn't cover? And what is your answer?

Adrian McDonnell 44:22

Yeah, great question. I think well, they say you're on what fuels you and keeps you go.

Philip Pape 44:27

Go ahead what fuels you and keep us going besides food.

Adrian McDonnell 44:33

So I think the big thing for me, it's just progression, like I just growth improvement. Like even if it's a case that I knock five seconds off my 5k Run, or you add on a 1.25 kilogram or two and a half pound plate, you're dead like some form progression. I'll always finish every workout on some form volley. So it doesn't even have to be adding more weight to the variable. It could just be I got 15 chin ups last week. I got 15 this week but They've added 15 plus one. And it's one more than it did last week. And you know, that's that compounding effect again. So for me in all areas of my life, once I'm seeing that I'm not stagnant if I'm somewhat improving and growing. That's what really fuels me and keeps we go.

Philip Pape 45:14

And that's the epitome of a growth mindset right there knowing that you can improve, you can do it in all areas, you might have setbacks like he did last year, but even those teach you to grow. I know you talk about happiness a lot on your show, or what it's one of the last questions I think, on your show. Sometimes I was recently studying positive psychology, there's a framework in there called the perma model. And perma stands for five things that are associated with well being and happiness, the A's accomplishment, which is what you're talking about, and then E and there's engagement, which is like the process and being in flow and being totally natural doing, you take those combined with some relationships and meaning and positivity. And man, you got a recipe for success. 100%

Adrian McDonnell 45:54

Yeah, in that one of out said, what you want to do, where you want to live, who you want to spend your time with. Like, if you figure out those three things, happy with what you're doing happy with where you live, and you've got good at, you know, relationships with people around you. Like, for me, that's my fuel happy. That's my successor happiness formula. Very simple. But you know, it's, it's often the small things that actually don't turn out to be the small things.

Philip Pape 46:19

And on that inspiring note, oh, man, where can listeners learn more about you find your work look you up.

Adrian McDonnell 46:24

Yeah, fed up. But I really appreciate you bringing me on and really enjoyed this episode. Also, for any listeners who want to learn more about me, you can just pop me a follower, check out my content on Instagram. So on Instagram, I'm Adrian McDonald. And my handle is at Mac lifestyle fitness. So that's MC lifestyle Fitness on Instagram. And Phillip thanks again for having me on. I really appreciate it, brother.

Philip Pape 46:48

It was so awesome. We got to be blessed with all of your wisdom. So thank you so much for coming on.

Adrian McDonnell 46:52

Brilliant. Thank you so much.

Philip Pape 46:55

Philip Pape 6/11/24 Philip Pape 6/11/24

The New Over 50 Roadmap to Lifelong Strength, Health, Muscle, and Longevity | Ep 180

Are you over 50 and wondering how to keep your muscles strong as you age? Are you curious about how your eating habits affect your health? Want to discover the secret to living a vibrant life in your 50s and beyond?

In this episode, Philip (@witsandweights) provides a practical guide to optimizing health and strength for individuals over 50. He highlights strength training as a key strategy in preventing muscle loss and increasing longevity. Philip also talks about nutrition and gut health, including the recommended protein intake and suggested protein sources, as well as the benefit of consuming a variety of fiber-rich and fermented foods. He also touches on how having a positive mindset and staying connected with others are keys to aging well, highlighting the role of support networks in helping you stay on track. So, whether you’re over 50 or planning for your future, this episode has practical tips for living a full and healthy life.

Today, you’ll learn all about:

3:45 How to avoid sarcopenia and dynapenia
7:39 Strength training tips for individuals over 50
11:02 Recommended protein intake and sources for older adults
14:59 The importance of social connection and mindset for longevity
21:03 The connection between gut health and age
25:37 Fixed vs. growth mindset
29:33 Five fundamental principles to create your fitness roadmap
41:19 Outro

Related Episode:

Ep 177: How Anatomy Impacts Your Gut, Muscle Mass, Hormones, and Health with Justin Cottle

Episode resources:

Give Bruce and Jan a follow: @bruceandjantrain
Send me your question for the next Q&A by voicemail or text.
Try MacroFactor for free with code WITSANDWEIGHTS. It’s the only food-logging app that adjusts to your metabolism!
Learn about Wits & Weights Physique University

Episode summary:

As we age, our bodies undergo several changes, one of the most notable being the loss of muscle mass and strength. This podcast episode delves into the critical aspects of reversing muscle loss after 50, focusing on strength training, nutrition, and mindset. Whether you're in your 50s, 60s, or beyond, the insights shared in this episode are invaluable for anyone looking to maintain or regain their physical vitality and overall health.

The first chapter of the episode sets the stage by explaining the science behind muscle loss, known as sarcopenia, and the related decline in muscle strength, referred to as dynopenia. These conditions start affecting us as early as our 30s and accelerate after 50, leading to significant muscle and strength loss by the time we reach our 70s. However, the episode reassures listeners that it's never too late to start combating these effects. Strength training is highlighted as the most effective way to prevent and even reverse sarcopenia and dynopenia. By incorporating compound movements like squats, deadlifts, rows, and presses into your routine, you can build and maintain muscle and strength at any age.

The importance of protein in muscle building cannot be overstated, especially as we age. The episode emphasizes that older adults need more protein to achieve the same muscle-building effects as younger individuals due to a phenomenon known as anabolic resistance. The recommended intake is around 0.7 to 1 gram of protein per pound of body weight, distributed across meals to ensure maximum muscle protein synthesis. Practical tips for meeting these protein needs include consuming high-quality sources like eggs, dairy, meat, fish, and poultry, as well as using supplements like whey protein.

Nutrition doesn't stop at protein. The episode also explores the role of gut health in aging well. A fiber-rich diet is crucial for maintaining a balanced microbiome, which in turn supports metabolic health and reduces inflammation. Incorporating a variety of fiber-rich foods such as vegetables, fruits, legumes, and whole grains, along with fermented foods like yogurt and kimchi, can significantly boost gut health.

Mindset plays a pivotal role in healthy aging. The episode discusses the importance of embracing a growth mindset, which involves viewing challenges as opportunities for growth and learning. This mindset fosters resilience and a positive outlook, which are essential for maintaining quality of life as we age. Practical strategies for cultivating a growth mindset include starting small, being consistent, and celebrating effort rather than just results.

Social connections are another crucial element of healthy aging. The episode highlights research showing that strong social networks are vital for longevity and overall well-being. Social connections provide a sense of meaning and purpose, which in turn motivates us to take better care of ourselves. Whether it's reconnecting with old friends, joining clubs, or volunteering, maintaining social connections can significantly enhance the quality of our later years.

The episode concludes by emphasizing the importance of support networks in achieving personal transformation and maintaining a healthy lifestyle. Coaches, accountability partners, and communities can provide the guidance and encouragement needed to stay on track. Investing in these support systems can lead to consistent and lasting results, helping you build strength, health, and resilience at any age.

In summary, this podcast episode offers a comprehensive roadmap for those over 50 looking to optimize their health, strength, and longevity. By focusing on strength training, adequate protein intake, gut health, a growth mindset, and social connections, you can defy aging and live your strongest, healthiest, and most vibrant life.

Have you followed the podcast?

Get notified of new episodes. Use your favorite podcast platform or one of the buttons below. Then hit “Subscribe” or “Follow” and you’re good to go!

Transcript

Philip Pape 00:00

If you're over 50 and want to optimize your health, strength and longevity, or you're wondering how to get a head start for your later years, this episode is a must listen, we are going beyond the typical advice and diving into the surprising science of what really moves the needle to prevent muscle loss, increase your lifespan and choose how you want to age. Whether you're in your 50s 60s 70s or beyond. This episode will give you a practical roadmap to defy aging and live your strongest, healthiest, most vibrant life. Welcome to the wit's end weights podcast. I'm your host, Philip pape, and this twice a week podcast is dedicated to helping you achieve physical self mastery by getting stronger. Optimizing your nutrition and upgrading your body composition will uncover science backed strategies for movement, metabolism, muscle and mindset with a skeptical eye on the fitness industry

Philip Pape 00:52

so you can look and feel your absolute best. Let's dive right in Whitson weights community Welcome to another solo episode of the weights and weights podcast. In our last episode 179 the real reasons your scale weight fluctuates. It's not always fat gain. With Louise Digby, you learn about all the reasons the scale weight fluctuates, the dangers of scale obsession, and the importance of non scale victories. We discussed the role of hormones in weight management, the problem with restrictive dieting, and the emotional and psychological side of fat loss and body image, plus lots of tips for sustainable fat loss. Today for Episode 180, the new over 50 roadmap to lifelong strength, health, muscle and longevity, we're gonna put together your new roadmap for optimizing your physical and mental health in your 50s 60s 70s and beyond. As always, we're about sustainable practical changes here that deliver real results, not quick fixes, not being impatient, not just giving up when things start to get a little hard, because oftentimes hard things done now make everything else easier later. So whether you're over 50 yourself, or you just want to set yourself up to thrive in the second half of life, this episode is for you. But before we dive in, I want to give a special shout out to Bruce and Jan at Bruce and Jan train on Instagram. As it says on their bio, Bruce is 72 Jan younger, and they are absolutely crushing their health, their fitness, they post videos about their training, their Instagram bio says they are attempting managed decline naturally. So I love the way kind of very conservative way they put it. But it says a lot. And there's very profound. And Bruce reached out recently over Instagram suggesting that we make an episode specifically for listeners over 50. And how their biggest challenge is trying to change a lifetime of habits all at once. And I agree as much as the principles apply to everyone of any age. There are specific things that are unique to different age groups and different demographics. And so and one of those is that, yes, you've lived so many decades doing things a certain way. You've heard different influences over the years, then maybe younger generations have heard, you know, you didn't grow up with the internet and all the stuff we have now and try to change those habits maybe have more friction in front of them, then maybe someone who's younger would. So Bruce and Jan, this episode is for you. Now I know many of you in the over 50 Crowd may feel like your best years are behind you or it's too late to get in the best shape of your life. But as we're going to make crystal clear today, nothing could be further from the truth because with the right approach, you can build strength, vitality, resilience at any age, you'll vastly improve your physical capability and appearance as well. And it's never too late to start. And the research is unequivocal that we can slow down and even reverse certain aspects of aging, simply by changing our lifestyle. So let's get into it today, we have a lot to cover with the new over 50 roadmap to lifelong strength, health, muscle and longevity. And of course, the first thing we must start with here is the importance of strength training. One of the most important things that happens as we age is a condition called sarcopenia. sarcopenia is the progressive loss of muscle mass, it starts at around the age of 30. You know around that age, I mean, it's it's starting fairly young, if you're just not using your muscles, but it really starts to pick up then. And it accelerates after 50. And by 70, you can lose or have lost up to 30 to 50% of your muscle mass. If you don't just take steps to prevent it. And it's okay if you're already there. Because we've seen that you can add new muscle tissue up to any age we've seen in 80s and 90 year olds. Now it's not just about the muscle size. I mean as much as we think muscle mass itself is important for size. Obviously it's important for physique, things like that. There's something called Dinah Peenya which is the age related loss of muscle strength. Right? If you haven't heard that word before, it's not thrown around very often, even in this space. We talked about sarcopenia but not necessarily Dinah Peenya and studies show that muscle strength declines two to five times faster than muscle size man that is, that's an incredible statistic, let that sink in. Not only are you losing tons of muscle from the age of 30 to 70, you're losing even more relative strength. So you could be maintaining some of the muscle but still be getting significantly weaker over time. And why does that matter? It's probably obvious if you're over 50 already. But sarcopenia and Dinah paeonian are linked to a whole host of problems like increased risk of falls, fractures, disability, even premature death. And I think I mentioned in a previous show how falling is like the number one cause I don't know if it's the number one cause of death over a certain age, but because I know heart disease is number one as well. But I think a lot of people have died off of heart disease, then they die off of falls, because they're weak. The good news is we can prevent and even reverse these conditions, with one thing, strength training. This is why I am so passionate that everybody on the planet should be strength training one way or the other. An older you are, the more important it is not less. Lifting weights is hands down the most effective way to build or maintain muscle and strength as you age period. Okay, I did a quick which recently, I think, well, I don't know if it came out yet. But it was about the advice that gets thrown around in these, like in newspapers and these listicles that say, like, just move more, you know, most people are sedentary, just gotta move more. And that'll do it, that's not going to do it. That is not going to do it. As you age, you've got to lift weights, you've got to put load on your muscles and bones, you just have to do it. Yes, moving is better than not moving, but not much better compared to strain training, that is a life changing. Difference. All right. And it doesn't have to be complicated. That's what I want to share in this episode, just two sessions a week, usually for somebody who's over 70 is going to make a massive difference. And it can reduce sarcopenia risk by I think there was a study that said by up to 30%. Right. And honestly, I don't care what it reduces by I know, we all know that lifting weights is going to build your muscle tissue. So just do it. Don't worry about the percentages and all that just you are avoiding the massive sarcopenia your peers are going to be facing who are not lifting weights, right, just like Bruce and Jana, I mean, they're a living example of this. Now, the key here is, if I were to sum it up in like one sentence is to focus on compound movements, like squats, deadlifts, rows, presses, and then gradually increase the weight and the reps over time. That's like the overarching principle of lifting heavy and progressing, you know, progressive overload over time. And then doing that at least two to three times a week, just so you get enough frequency in there. But I want to give you some specifics for older adults, I promised that I would give you some different things in this episode, specific to you. So the first thing is, especially if you're new to this, or you haven't trained in a long time, you're going to be a little bit more, it's going to be harder for you to warm up and recover, right, you're going to have your joints, your connective tissue are just not what they were when you were younger. And so you may need to do a little more more warm up, you may need to ease into not only this session, but whatever weights you're trying to start with, when you first start lifting like you know, you don't have to go all out. And chances are, you're probably not in a position where you want to do that anyway, but it's just worth mentioning. The second thing is that I firmly strongly believe in this compound lifts, which are ideal for building strength anyway, compound lifts like squats, deadlifts, anything with multiple joints, with free weights, barbells, you know, dumbbells? Yeah, maybe cables and machines, but mainly barbells. And free weights are going to build so much balance, and so much coordination, and make you an independent person who's better at life, using the full range of motion using your entire system. It's how you function in the real world. And for the over 50 population, I think that almost becomes the top priority over anything. Yeah, even if you want to lose some weight and look good, and whatever, I'm guessing by the time you're 60 7080, you really just want to be able to be strong. And if you get hit by a slow moving car, you're gonna get up and be fine. As opposed to having your hips shattered into a million pieces, like these are really life changing things because once those things happen, it leads to going into the hospital, being on medication, getting pneumonia, you know, polypharmacy, all the things that we are associated with, quote unquote, old people, and you are taking control of your age by being a strong MF ER for the rest of your life. Right. But, you know, don't just start with any old hypertrophy bodybuilding program, like, really consider using compound lifts early on, and that yes, includes barbells. And I think that's one of the best tools for older folks. Right? And it might sound like the opposite of what a lot of people think, Oh, is that is that safe? Are you gonna hurt your back? No, no, that's how you get strong. Alright, the next thing is recovery time and kind of the, how you spread your workouts across the week, older folks take longer to recover. I'm in my 40s and I already can see that compared to when I was in my 30s or 20s. And so this might mean you need to stretch out your program. So if you're following it for A week program, you might stretch it out over six days or seven days, or three days a week program, you do it two days a week and you stretch it, things like that. Having shorter sessions, maybe you want a couple sessions a day that are really short, there's a lot of different ways of slicing, you're going to have to make it work for you. The next one is I have for you is as much as you want to progressively overload. So session to session, you want to add weight to the bar to the dumbbells, whatever it has to be appropriate has to be just the right amount to push you but not too much. I feel like there's a propensity to try to wanting to jump too much. And that's one of the biggest reasons people fail to reps and feel like they're stalling out. So increased by the appropriate load. And then the last thing is just don't be stupid. I mean, in your 50s, you're in your 60s, Junior 70s, you don't have the same tolerance for getting injured. And for the time that it takes to rehab from an injury, as you did when you were an idiot, 20 year old. Okay, so you're not an idiot, 20 year old, you're very wise, over 50 year old, so don't be stupid. So that's that's strength training. Now, strength training provides the stimulus for building and maintaining muscle, it is a non negotiable. But to actually build new muscle tissue, you need the raw materials for that. And that's our protein comes in. All right, protein is made up of amino acids. These are the building blocks of muscle. When you eat protein, your body then breaks it down and uses those amino acids to repair and build new muscle fibers. But as you age, your body becomes less efficient at doing that. It's called muscle protein synthesis. And the phenomenon of getting less efficient, is called anabolic resistance. We see this in women getting older, we see this just in general as we get older. And anabolic resistance means you need more protein to get the same effect. As a younger person, you're just less efficient with it. And the current RDA for protein is abysmally low, it's like point eight grams per kilogram, which would be like point four grams per pound. But for you know, for anybody, let alone older adults who are active or lifting, this is woefully inadequate. Like that's just survival level, there's actually position stance and plenty of studies related to aging populations for older adults that are in line with what I always recommend anyway for most people, and that is around the one gram per pound, right, so like point seven to one grams per pound of body weight. Or that's like 1.6 to 2.2 grams per kilogram of body weight. So if you weigh 150 pounds, that's anywhere from like 100 to 150. You know, in that range, chances are, you're far below that. And if not, if you've been paying attention to this for any length of time, then you've probably gotten into where you need to be. And if you are, let's say you're very overweight, just go by your target body weight, your ideal body weight, that's total protein, then we also have to consider you know how protein is distributed. And the more science we've discovered on this shows us that what's more important is that you get a certain minimum when you eat but not necessarily a maximum. And you don't have to necessarily spread it out. You don't have to force spread it out throughout the day, two, three meals a day with protein is good enough for most people, as long as you get the total, right, you don't have to eat six times seven times, just try to get around 20 to 30 grams or more protein per meal. And don't worry about the other other the other stuff leucine threshold and all that stuff. So total protein, point seven, one gram per pound, eat it across anywhere from like two to five meals a day. And focus on high quality protein, really, I mean protein from anywhere, but I'm saying that not like not all collagen protein, for example. You want sources like eggs, dairy, meat, fish, poultry, and then all the plant sources of protein as well. And of course, whey protein is a great way to supplement if you're having trouble getting enough of it. And with my experience with older adults, appetite seems to be lower as we age, right, you might have trouble eating as much. And so using liquid forms using, you know, pre digested processed forms of some foods actually could be helpful. And it's perfectly fine. Right? So whey casein, things like that, making a smoothie making a shake. So that's Protein Protein is massive. If you're not getting enough, start tracking your food so you can see how much you get. And then set the target. My favorite app for this is called macro factor. All one word macro factor. Yes, it's a food logging app. But it also tells you what your metabolism is. So you know if you need to eat more or less for your goal, and if you're trying to build muscle, if you're trying to do what Bruce and Jan are doing. It helps to be tracking so that you know you're eating enough. You've got enough energy, you've got enough protein, right? That you're not selling yourself short, that you've got enough carbs to support this muscle building process. So macro factor, download it, use my code, Whitson weights, I'll throw it in the show notes. So you have it. My code, Whitson weights all one word will get you a two week free trial. It is a paid app, but all the best apps of course are going to be paid and it's more affordable than you can imagine. So use that to track. The next thing I want to talk about. Out is. So we talked about food, we talked about building muscle, I want to talk about social connection, longevity, purpose, things like a little bit more on the mindset side that really come into play as we get older. And I'm seeing this now in my 40s. And I can definitely see it among my parents my in laws. We all know that relationships are important. But you might be surprised to learn from the data how critical social connection is for healthy aging, maybe you won't be surprised. You hear it a lot these days. But the research shows that lacking social connection is a big risk factor. And as big a risk factor for premature death as smoking 15 cigarettes a day. That's how important social connection is. There was a meta analysis from 2015 That looked at 70 studies with over three and a half million participants. And it found that loneliness, social isolation, and living alone all significantly increased the risk of early mortality. And the effect size was comparable to obesity. So I'm not trying to scare you, I'm trying to iterate that or reiterate that social connection are vital as we age. And relationships then influence our health. And this is about health. This is about longevity. Right? People with strong social networks have healthier lifestyle habits, they tend to go hand in hand. Like when your friends when your loved ones when your group that you hang out with when they eat well, when they train, when they avoid risky behaviors, you're more likely to do the same. And maybe you're an influence on them. And this is a way that you can, you know, change the family tree of people in your peer group of your friends and family. Here's the other thing, another side tangent, I know that the generations that are currently over 50 come from a time when exercise was just not as much a thing, right. And it's slowly starting to shift. But we need to make it more of a thing. So spread the message, share this episode, as we, you know, reach out to Bruce and Jan and follow them. Follow me on what's in wait so we can get this message out. Right. The other thing is that I wanted to talk about what social connection is it provides a sense of meaning and purpose, right? When you feel like you matter to others, when you're in this, like web or cocoon of support. And we'll say accountability and obligation, right. Because when you're when you're with other people who are trying to do the same thing, you almost feel obligated to them to do it in a good way. Like you don't want to let them down. Right. And that provides a reason to take care of yourself. I have friends like that I have colleagues, acquaintances, other coaches, just feeding off of each other's energy, we're like, oh, you're doing that. All right, I need to step it up. Right. And that's a good thing. As we get older, we want to have that positive push to keep improving, you'll, you'll never stop improving. And you'll take care of yourself, and you'll show up for the people who depend on you. And then they will do the same for you. And then you and all your other strong friends, you know, who are far healthier, stronger than most people your age, are gonna be the ones that are able to help and stand up and show up and make a difference. And that's huge. When it comes to meaning and purpose. And we know how important it is to have purpose in our lives. from a health standpoint, in a mental health standpoint, right? Now, the quality of your relationships is more important than the quantity. And I'm sure you know this, I'm sure you know that you can have 1000 friends on social media, and you hardly talk to them. And it's all often I don't wanna say negative, but they're not your quote unquote, real friends necessarily, except for maybe a handful of them. And it's usually better to have a few close supportive connections in this huge social network of superficial links, and a kind of a mix of people, right a mix of friends, family, neighbors, co workers, people who share your hobbies, your interests, all that kind of good stuff. Especially if you're retired, for example, you know, you're no longer kind of artificially immersed in an environment where there are lots of other people. But even Hey, I work from home, I understand the importance of needing to reach out and avoid neglecting relationships. I'm thinking of a couple of people already, as I record this that I should reach out to by text or phone afterward to reconnect because it's been a while. So consider this right now. This episode as you're listening to me, you're signed to reach out to an old friend, maybe join a club, so many clubs and or take a class right to meet new people volunteering, huge way to find meaning and expand your social circles, kind of two birds one stone, right. The bottom line here is investing in a relationship is investing in your health and longevity. And I thought it was important to include in an episode about the year over 50 roadmap.

Philip Pape 19:25

Hey, this is Philip and I hope you're enjoying this episode of wits and weights. I started with some weights to help ambitious individuals in their 30s 40s and beyond, who want to build muscle lose fat and finally look like they lift. I noticed that when people transform their physique, they not only look and feel better, but they also experience incredible changes in their health, confidence and overall quality of life. If you're listening to this podcast, I assume you want the same thing to build your ultimate physique and unlock your full potential whether you're just starting out or looking to take your progress to the next level. That's why I created wits and weights physique University, a semi private group coaching experience designed to help you achieve your best physique ever. With a personalized done for you nutrition plan, custom designed courses, new workout programs each month, live coaching calls and the supportive community, you'll have access to everything you need to succeed. If you're ready to shatter your plateaus and transform your body and life, head over to Whitson weights.com/physique, or click the link in the show notes to enroll today. Again, that's Whitson weights.com/physique. I can't wait to welcome you to the community and help you become the strongest leanest and healthiest version of yourself. Now back to the show.

Philip Pape 20:46

Alright, so the next one I want to talk about as another, it's starting to get talked about a lot more. It is something that people seem to overhype. And yet it actually deserves the hype. And it's extremely important when you're older. And that is gut health. You're like, oh, here we go. Again, gut health. But here's the thing, your gut inside your GI tract, which is the entire tube from your mouth to the other end, is a huge, complex ecosystem of trillions of bacteria, known as your gut microbiome, the makeup of that family of bacteria has a profound impact on every aspect of your life. We tend to label bacteria as good or bad, right? Like the good bacteria keep the bad bacteria in check. The good ones are the ones that digest your food, they produce nutrients, they regulate your immune system, they protect against infection. But here's the thing where age comes into play. As we are aging, the diversity of that gut bacteria declines, right? And it starts from when your baby have all the experiences of whether you have pets of whether you had a vaginal birth, whether you have breastfeeding, all of those things, it starts that early, then it's like, Okay, do you play outside? Or are you in a sterile environment, things like that, and it progresses. But it also is depends on what you eat. And if you've been eating the same foods for decades, the older you are, the less and less and less diverse your gut bacteria becomes, because of that limited diet, or let's just say that routine boring diet that we get used to. And then the quote unquote bad guys start outnumber the good. And that's when you run into problems. And you get an imbalanced microbiome. Now, they call this dysbiosis, right, which is kind of the extreme increase, you get a lot of increased inflammation, but it is associated with diseases like diabetes and heart disease and Alzheimer's, it could be confounded by the lifestyle as well, right? I don't want to kind of overblow that piece of it. But having a healthy diverse microbiome becomes increasingly important over 50. And it's just important in general, for the fiber for the overall health for all the impacts that it has your metabolism on your hormones on everything. I'm going to simplify what you do about it, because that's where people get all wonky and complicated. The number one thing you can do to support your gut bacteria is just feed them fiber. Right fiber is the preferred fuel source for most of the beneficial gut bacteria. Right when they feast on fermentable fibers, they produce some short what they call short chain fatty acids that heal your gut, your gut lining, reduces inflammation and support your healthy metabolic rate. And all you have to do is aim for a certain amount of fiber each day. It's usually around 2530 grams of fiber, right a little bit more for men a little bit less for women. It depends on your size, how much you're eating. But let's say 30 grams of fiber from a variety of whole food sources vegetables, fruits, legumes, nuts, seeds, whole grains, and what I learned from Justin Caudill, who was on episode, what was at 177. Okay, he's the anatomy and cadaver guide is not only eat like apples, but eat three or four different types of apples because of the different pectin compounds in the skin that will give different sources of food to bacteria. And some of the most gut friendly fiber rich foods are leafy greens. You know, onions, garlic, leeks, asparagus, bananas, apples, oats, flaxseed, all this delicious food that you should have in your diet. There's always talk about fermented foods as well, which are super helpful like yogurt, kefir, sauerkraut, kimchi, miso, tempeh, those kinds of things. And these are naturally probiotic rich foods, and they boost the beneficial bacteria, right. But if you've gotten to a point where it's pretty depleted and pretty out of balance, you know, you may also need some supplementation. So definitely consider that. But overall, my point here is the gut is important. And having a diverse diet full of fiber is important as well, by the way, fiber has some side benefits. It helps with your like with gas with your bowel movements. And it also helps with satiety, keeping you full, so protein and fiber keeps you full. So when you're, let's say you're trying to lose a little bit of fat and calories a little tighter, they help keep you full. So fiber is a good one. And then the next one is I guess this is the last big category I wanted to cover on this roadmap is back to the mental side because no matter how well you eat, how much you train, or how well you train, how many supplements you take, how much fiber protein, you're not going to stop the clock, like that's the reality of it, right? Things are going to change as you age. You're going to face new challenges, physical challenges, mental challenges, I mean, think about what your friends are going to start passing away. Like, that's the reality that we acknowledge it, right? I'm only in my 40s. And I've seen people starting to pass away, right. And as you get older, that accelerates, that's just one of many things, right? You might lose friends, their situations change. I know how older people if they don't have that social connection, that can feel a little bit lonely and neglected, right? It's just different things change, you're not working anymore, most likely, you're retired and you're trying to find a new way to live your life. The financial situation is different sources of stress. And how you review and respond to those is what matters more than anything not they exist. It's how you respond to them. So you may have heard of psychologist Carol Dweck, and in her research, she identified the two mindsets that shape how people approach their lives. The first is a fixed mindset. With a fixed mindset, you believe that your abilities, your intelligence, your talents are fixed, right? That they can't change like that is who you are. And you might as you might know, you might have made statements throughout your life that I am this, or you talk about other people like my daughter is this, right? Those are fixed mindset statements. And whether we intentionally do it or not, they usually lead to avoiding challenges giving up easily, and often feeling threatened by other people's success. On the other hand, if you have a growth mindset, which I'm a huge fan of having a growth mindset and cultivating it, you believe your abilities can be developed. And it will all it takes us two things dedication and hard work. And dedication is kind of a loose term, it could refer to persistence, perseverance, grit, not so much willpower. It's more of a long term dedication, right. Like you're you're committed, you keep being consistent. You know, you're not perfect, you keep being consistent and pushing through. And people with growth mindsets embrace challenges, they persist in the face of setbacks, they find inspiration in the success of others who, what a different perspective, isn't it. And it turns out that this growth mindset becomes increasingly important, as we age. And as you navigate the challenges of aging. There's a study from 2021 found that adults over 60, with a growth mindset had significantly greater resilience, wellbeing, and sense of purpose than those with a fixed mindset. They were also more open to learning new technologies that can improve their quality of life. And so think about how that might apply to what we're talking about today. Strength training, maybe you've had you maybe haven't trained, maybe you think, look, none of my friends are doing it. Older people just don't do that. That's a fixed mindset. A growth mindset is, yeah, this is a brand new area I get to explore, I get to test the theory that you can build new muscle at any age. Isn't that exciting? Right? So how can you cultivate that mindset, because some of you just may not, you may be stuck in your ways. And that's kind of a fixed mindset statement I just made. But let's be honest, some of us are stubborn, right? And we have to notice those fixed mindset triggers, like, let's say something new, is something new comes your way, like this podcast episode might be a trigger, right? I'm asking you to try these different things. You're like, God, that's, that's no, that's too much. Right? So when you hear this, what I'm telling you, are you focusing more on the potential to fail, or the opportunity to learn and to grow, right? And so I want you to embrace the power of yet the word yet. You're not too old to get fit, you're just not fit yet. You can't do a pull up yet. But every attempt gets you stronger toward that pull up, right? Use the word yet and see what it does for you. And I want you to celebrate, I think I mentioned this in a Saturday bonus episode where I talked about my insecurities. I want you to celebrate effort. It's great to celebrate wins when they happen. It's great to celebrate results. But I want you to celebrate effort, so that you get into the process. And this is a lot of fun, new stuff you get to try here. You know, just lifting weights, if you've never done before, it can be invigorating. It's just all this new stuff you get to learn. You don't think of it as a fun hobby that also gets you amazing results at the end, not at the end, it gives you amazing results every day, along the way, right? Because we're celebrating the process and the effort. So I want you to reframe failures as a chance to learn and surround yourself with people who inspire you to push your limits. Right? You can't help getting older, but you don't have to get old. Does that make sense? Like you don't have to be an old person. Again, Bruce and Jan, you go look at them. And you're like, you know, they may be a certain age, right? But they're not like typical old people at all. They are strong, they're capable, they're resilient. It's amazing. It's inspiring, and embracing the growth mindset like they haven't they did it late in life. That is the key to Aging Gracefully and resilient, strongly. So I've thrown a lot at you today, a little bit of science, a little bit of strategy. I didn't necessarily cover every single principle I would talk about when it comes to say fat loss or building muscle because you can find those in the rest of my podcast and they apply to you as well. I wanted to cover the things specifically that are unique to those over 50. And you might be hearing this and saying okay, I'm half hour into this podcast, I'm not sure where to start. And even though there's no one size fits all approach, right and you are at a different point than someone else. Because if you're 60, I don't know you could have been lifting for like you could have been active in your earlier years, you might have been an athlete, maybe you are already active and you want to find something different. Maybe you've been sedentary, maybe you have all sorts of health issues, right? There's a lot of different things. But there are principles that will help you create your personal roadmap. So this is the new over 50 roadmap. And these are the principles, I'm gonna give you five right now five key principles. Principle number one, start small and focus on consistency. Right? Start where you are at today is your baseline, doesn't matter what happened in the past, doesn't matter what the person next to you can do. If you try to overhaul your entire lifestyle overnight, you're gonna get burned out, and you're gonna fail period. And this is exactly why clients come to me all the time, they've tried this over and over, try to change everything, New Year's resolution, change, everything doesn't work. Choose one small change you can make this week. That's it all I want you to do, there's no rush. It took me this many decades, what's another day or week. So one small change, maybe it's doing your first strength based workout. And I can recommend I can recommend programs to and in fact, I would say go get the book. Actually, here you have the barbell prescription by John Sullivan. Okay, it's based on the starting strength model. But it's specifically for people. It's targeted at people over 40. But it's all about being an athlete of aging, that's the term of use an athlete of aging taking control. So, go buy the barbell prescription. And that's going to change your mind and your life forever when it comes to this stuff when it comes to strength and muscle. So buy that book, and then do your first workout, like read the book, and plan to do your first workout. Another thing you can do just again, one thing, I'm not telling you to do all this one thing, add protein to a meal that currently doesn't have protein. For many people, that's breakfast, but it might be some other meal during the day. Simply add protein, right. Another thing you can do, again, one thing, call up an old friend, I mentioned this earlier about social connections. Think about an old friend that you haven't talked to in a while, call them up right after the show, right after you follow the show. So you get the next episode. Alright, so that's number one, start small focus on consistency. Number two, I want you to use something called habit stacking. Maybe you heard about this, it's a way to make new behaviors stick. And the way it works is you try a new habit that you want to develop to an existing routine that you already have. So it's kind of coming along for the ride. So I mean, the protein thing is an easy one, right? Like you already have you already eat. So you already eat breakfast. So go ahead and add in the protein. Right? Or you like to listen to podcasts. Why don't you go for a walk after lunch while listening to the podcasts, you're basically just doing two things in one, you're sticking something that you don't quite do regularly yet to something you do already do. So if you already listen your podcast, and you're doing it while sitting down, you can now do it while walking. That's just an example. I'm sure you can come up with many more. There's all sorts of things that, you know, I think it's some of the research. They said, Well, what do people What does almost everybody do? Well, they sit and watch TV, everybody watches, like at least an hour of TV day, some people much more. Well, can you just do that? Can you set for yourself a rule that I'm only going to watch that Netflix show that I want to binge, if I do it while I'm on my assault bike or on my treadmill. That's just one example. I like to listen to podcasts while I'm lifting weights, not when I'm actually doing the set, but what you know, in between. So that's habit stacking, it's just combining something you already do with something you want to do. The third thing is the third principle, look for ways to make the healthier choices more convenient. Okay, one of the excuses that people make is there's too much friction, there's too much stopping them from doing it like Oh, I forgot to do or that was too much. Or by the time my alarm went off, and I had to go to the gym, but I felt like sleeping. So food wise, right? prepping food meal prep meal planning on the weekend. So you have your food ready for the week, when you make dinner, don't just make dinner for two or four, make it for 12. To end use leftovers, buy things that are a little more convenient, if needed, like pre cut veggies or whatnot. Again, it depends on your budget and things like that, you know, convenience can still be healthy, right? The big one I like for strength training is keeping your workout clothes, and your squat shoes and your bag and your blender bottle and all that like getting it all ready the night before. So you have no excuse but to go to the gym. In fact, it's more work to take it all apart and just go to the gym. So you're just trying to remove friction wherever possible. And again, this is a principle. So you need to evaluate in your life where the friction points are. What is it that you're telling yourself? It's an excuse? Yes, it is an excuse, but it's there. How can we eliminate that thing? So it can even be an excuse. Principle number four. And I alluded to this already, but it's focused on the process over the outcome. It's nice to say, Okay, I want to lose 20 pounds. But that's a one and done thing. It's going to happen if you do it, right. But it doesn't help focusing on it, the whole time you're making it happen, what really matters is developing, the way that you eat, the way that you move that feels sustainable, that you can do forever. And then by the way, it happens to get you that 20 pounds, and then eventually get the 20 pounds. And you're like, Okay, I got my 20 pounds, but really, I enjoyed the process to get there. Right? Instead of fixating on what the scale says on any given day, why don't we instead think about how much more energy we have, how much more we're sleeping, how much stronger you're filling in workouts, did you get five pounds more on the deadlift? Those are things that are process related. And you could argue that they are, they're still outcomes, but they're micro outcomes. They're outcomes that occur on a frequent, you know, daily basis. All right, and then the last principle is to get support, reach out for help, please, you know, I used to, when I first started in this with my own personal transformation, I was very much like, I'm going to do this myself. I read books, I listen to podcasts, and I started doing things myself, but then I would constantly step back, or I'd get tripped up, or I couldn't be consistent. And then I started to join some free Facebook groups. I joined you know, I got a coach at my gym. I mean, today, I have like 10 different coaches for different things. Because I realized every time I would get support, whether it was paid free, as long as it was somebody else in that same circle, my progress would accelerate, but I would also have a safety net that wouldn't allow me to step back too far. Right? Like, not only did it push me forward more quickly, whenever I gotta took a step back, somebody was there to kind of Prop me up. And then let me keep going. It's like, yeah, you take a little step back, but then you get to keep going, you know, hiring a coach, getting an accountability partner, a training partner, join in any sort of community, I don't care if it's, you know, a physical community, like a club, or with a gym, you know, with people that you go train with, whether it's like a Facebook group, social group, like a club, where you do things together, it doesn't even have to be related to fitness, per se. But I guess where I'm going at here is it's got to be people that are going after the same goals. It could be a paid community or group coaching program like Woodson waits physique university that I run, just there's so many ways to do it, right? The more you invest in yourself, the more that you get to help the faster you're gonna get the results and have the safety net so that you don't fall back. And then that behavior change then becomes a lot easier. That's the thing you're removing, not only removing friction on the front end, you're also removing friction on the back end, if that makes sense. And again, Bruce, and Jan, the couple I mentioned the beginning, they are great examples of what's possible with mutual support and encouragement. I mean, they've got a ton of followers and Instagram. And I know they're constantly reaching out and commenting and sharing things with people and they're telling people hey, go listen to Whitson weights and go listen to this person, because they are trying to help. So whatever your age is, whatever your current fitness level, you have an incredible capacity to get stronger to get healthier, and more resilient. You do I don't care what age you are.

Philip Pape 37:56

Is it going to be easy? No, it's not going to be easy. Is it going to be worth it? Absolutely. And you know, it's harder, not doing it. There's actually no easy in life unless you just die. Okay, you either do the hard thing so that life feels great, and you're strong and capable. Or you don't do the hard thing. And then life is even harder, because it hits back. It hits back at you in so many ways that are often or unexpected as well. Alright, so it's worth it. Start small stack your habits focus on the process get support, that's the real secret to Aging Gracefully, and vibrantly. Alright, we've covered a lot of ground, from practical tips to build strength and muscle, to protein to social connections, purpose, mindset shifts, all that good stuff. And what I hope for you is that you are walking away with a renewed sense of possibility and purpose, I hope, just my positivity, I hope it's infectious for you guys. Because if anything, just the way I like to communicate on this podcast is with a hopefulness. Right, anything is possible. Getting older is inevitable, but how we age is a choice. That's powerful. And if you have the right roadmap, and you have the right mindset, your 50s, your 60s or 70s and beyond, can be your best years ever. best years ever. I know it for sure I've seen it with my parents. I've seen it with lots of other folks in their 60s and 70s, who are sedentary their whole life, they start to have health issues, they start to have joint pain, they're on medications, and then they start lifting weights. And one by one, these issues start to go away. They start to feel better. They get off medications. It's just an amazing transformation. And then now you can have years and years and years, where not only do you have a lifespan you have a health span filled with strength, vitality, growth, joy, right, you can play with your grandkids, your great grandkids, whatever people of any age, you can volunteer. So no matter what your age is, you have the power. You have the power to build your strongest, healthiest, best self however, you know one habit at a time and I believe in you and I'm honored that I get to be part of this journey with you and I hope that it is something I said here's going to change you in some small way and ultimately change your life and potentially change the lives As others, alright, so I did say that when it comes to support, if you want to go to the next level, if you want to defy conventional wisdom about aging, I definitely urge you to check out and join us inside Whitson weights physique University. That is our semi private group coaching program where you get access to a custom nutrition plan, monthly workout programs, including ones that are perfectly appropriate. whatever age you are, we give you form checks, we help you figure out how to do them safely and properly. There are courses on all this stuff, there's live coaching calls, where you can ask questions, private community of like minded individuals all on a mission to optimize our health, and vitality. And it is designed for folks in their 30s 40s 50s and above. So you are in good company. And we take all the guesswork out of the process, we give you the science back tools and support you need to build strength to shed fat to fill your best at any age. It's not quick fixes. It's not fad diets, it's the sustainable evidence based practices that we talk about here. But I do warn you, it is not for people who are impatient to jump right into a diet or get a quick result. Right. This is for those serious about choosing how they want to age and making it last. So just go to Whitson weights.com/physique or click the link in my show notes to learn more and enroll. That's Whitson weights.com/physique Okay, and our next episode 181, how not to be skinny, fat and weak with Adrienne McDonnell. You'll learn the real reasons you might be skinny, fat and weak right now what to do to get strong, feel energized, nourish your training and your body and build that lean Well, muscle physique you're going for. Adrian will also share his personal journey with body dysmorphia. So you can come away with strategies for a healthier, more positive self image. Make sure to hit follow right now in your podcast app to get notified when that episode comes out and support the show. And if this episode resonated with you, if you got value from this episode, the best way to support us is just share it with a friend or family member who needs to hear this message, share it in your book club, share it at the gym, all your friends, if you're you know 6575 90 And you're listening to this and you're like that is a helpful message that others need to hear. Just tell people tell them go check out what's in waits, show them how to use a podcast, you know, show them how to click follow do all the things. Alright, as always stay strong. And I'll talk to you next time here on The wit's end weights podcast. Thank you for tuning in to another episode of wit's end weights. If you found value in today's episode, and know someone else who's looking to level up their weights or weights. Please take a moment to share this episode with them. And make sure to hit the Follow button in your podcast platform right now to catch the next episode. Until then, stay strong

Philip Pape 6/7/24 Philip Pape 6/7/24

Ep 179: The Real Reasons Your Scale Weight Fluctuates (It's Not Always Fat Gain) with Louise Digby

What’s the secret behind the fluctuating numbers on your scale? What’s the real deal between weight loss and fat loss? How can you escape the emotional rollercoaster of fat loss and body image?

Today, Philip (@witsandweights) welcomes Louise Digby, a registered nutritional therapist and women’s weight loss expert. She dives deep into the real reasons behind scale weight fluctuations, the dangers of scale obsession, and the importance of non-scale victories. Louise shares her insights on the role of hormones in weight management, the problem with restrictive dieting, and the emotional and psychological side of fat loss and body image. She also provides top tips for sustainable fat loss, improving body image, and addressing underlying health issues for long-lasting results.

Louise, the founder of The Nourish Method to Lasting Fat Loss, is renowned for her unique approach to health and well-being. She doesn’t advocate for restrictive dieting or superhuman willpower. Instead, she empowers her clients to sustainably lose fat, optimize their health, and rediscover their sparkle.

Today, you’ll learn all about:

2:18 Reasons for weight fluctuations beyond fat gain
9:36 When and what to measure
14:03 Weight loss vs fat loss
16:27 Dangers of scale obsession
19:15 Hormonal influences on weight
27:20 Recommended tests to start with
29:40 Problems with restrictive dieting
36:00 Emotional aspects and body image
40:11 Celebrating non-scale victories
43:45 Tips for sustainable progress and positive body image
50:41 Where to find Louise
51:02 Outro

Episode resources:

Masterclass: Learn The 3 Steps to Remove Weight Loss Inhibitors & Activate Weight Loss Accelerators
Website: louisedigbynutrition.com
The Thriving Metabolism Podcast
IG: @louisedigbynutrition

Episode summary:

When it comes to weight loss, the scale has long been considered the judge, jury, and sometimes executioner of our efforts. But what if this age-old barometer of success is actually misleading us? In an illuminating podcast episode with Louise Digby, a registered nutritional therapist and women's weight loss expert, we delve into why the scale might not reflect the full story of our weight loss journey and how we can better measure our success.

Firstly, let's talk about the elephant in the room – the number on the scale. It's a figure that many of us fixate on, yet it's influenced by a variety of factors beyond just fat. Muscle gain, water retention, and even the natural fluctuations of our menstrual cycles can all impact that number. This means that even if you're losing fat and getting healthier, the scale might not budge – or could even go up. It's a revelation that can either be incredibly frustrating or liberating, depending on your perspective.

Digby emphasizes the importance of looking at non-scale victories, which can include anything from how your clothes fit to how you feel. These victories are often more indicative of improved health and can include better sleep, more stable energy levels, and a reduction in cravings or bloating. By shifting our focus to these other metrics, we can gain a more holistic view of our health and progress.

Moreover, Digby sheds light on the role of gut health and inflammation in weight loss. An imbalanced gut microbiome or high levels of inflammation can not only affect your scale weight but can also make it harder to lose fat. Addressing these underlying issues can lead to more sustainable weight management and overall better health.

Then there's the topic of dieting – or rather, the problems with restrictive dieting. Digby and the podcast host discuss how severe calorie deficits can lead to muscle loss, a slowed metabolism, and a rebound effect that causes weight gain once the diet ends. Instead, they advocate for a balanced approach that supports muscle maintenance and hormonal balance, which in turn can lead to more efficient fat burning.

The emotional aspects of weight loss are also addressed, including the importance of mindset. Overcoming self-sabotage, reframing our relationship with food, and practicing self-compassion are all key to maintaining a healthy approach to weight management. Digby provides actionable advice for fostering a positive mindset, which is just as crucial as any diet or exercise regimen.

Lastly, the episode touches on the importance of sleep and stress management. Poor sleep can sabotage your weight loss efforts, while chronic stress can lead to elevated cortisol levels, which can hinder fat loss. Simple strategies like deep breathing, meditation, and ensuring adequate protein intake are discussed as ways to support your body's natural fat-burning capabilities.

In conclusion, the podcast episode with Louise Digby offers a wealth of knowledge for anyone looking to understand the complexities of weight loss. By focusing on holistic health measures and understanding the various factors that influence our weight, we can embark on a more effective and compassionate journey to better health.

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Transcript

Louise Digby 00:00

no hormones are often used as a bit of a scapegoat when it comes to trouble with losing weight. But really, they're still a symptom. They're not the root of it all. And all the things that we've been talking about like darts, inflammation, toxic load, these are all things that impact your hormones, though I find that if we can instead find out what's going on with those, then we can have a real positive impact on our hormones without actually needing to test the hormones.

Philip Pape 00:30

Louise Digby 02:15

Thank you so much for having me, I'm really pleased to be here.

Philip Pape 02:18

So let's just let's start by examining the premise of the topic today, which is that scale weight is actually important or relevant in some way, before we dive into the details to to achieve some outcome. So is scale weight important?

Louise Digby 02:31

I think it's not as important as it's made out to be. Obviously, it gives you a rough idea of whether you're moving in the right direction or not. But what we always overlook is that there's so many things that can contribute to our weight increasing or decreasing. And, you know, it's not just about that loss, because that's what we want, isn't it, we want to lose fat. But there might be other things going on that might not allow that to be reflected on the scales. So for example, if you're gaining muscle, then that's a really good thing. But obviously muscle is going to give you some weight. So if you're gaining muscle, you might see the scales go up. If you're gaining muscle and losing some fat, you might see the scales stay the same. So we have to think about, you know, what have we been doing, we've been doing strength training, because that is going to have an impact. That's a really good thing. And then there's also things like water retention. And you know, this is particularly for women, a really common thing. And you know, this might happen more at certain times of the month. And you might have water retention, if you're if you're feeling unwell, if you know if you've got an infection or a bug, if you're experiencing allergies or food reactions. Or if there's just genuinely inflammation in your body, then you're going to be more likely to retain water. If you've been eating more so or a little bit more junk food that may not actually be fat gain, it could be water retention as a result of the extra, so the extra carbs or other bits. So that's something that can make the scales jump up really quickly. So when you feel like the scales have jumped up a few pounds overnight, it's almost certainly not fat, that's going to be water retention. So we also need to think about well, how quickly are the scales moving because it's moving very quickly. It's not fat that's going on off. And then another thing that we need to think about is bowel movements. So if we are constipated, and we've been constipated for a few days, then that's going to build up in your system and that carries some weight. You know, you could carry an extra kilogram or two in like fecal matter. So, you know, if you're not having regular bowel movements, then that could be something that is causing the scales to stay the same or go up. And equally, if that corrects itself, then your weight will come down a little bit quicker. So I'd say those are probably some of the main things that can cause the scales to fluctuate. And then I also touched on it before, but it's really key menstrual cycles. For women, it is so so normal to gain a little bit of weight before your period, to lose it again after your period. So I always think for women who are having a regular cycle, if you do want to weigh yourself, it's best to compare, like for like, in terms of at the same time of your cycle each month? Because otherwise, it's not really very comparable from week to week. All

Philip Pape 05:45

right, yeah, no, I'm glad you already got into to the list of the reasons the scale might go up. And I like how you said, let's use the rule of thumb of how quickly it is right, because if you freak out over a two pound jump, I mean, at least the way I like to put it is you'd have to over consumed by 7000 calories to gain two pounds of fat. So let's, let's be realistic about it. And really, it takes time for fat to change. So you mentioned muscle gain. Totally makes sense, right? Muscles denser, you might be undergoing some body re composition. I'm sure you see this as well, like when you're trying to go through fat loss phase with somebody who's new to training, you might find that that that reveals itself was what looks like a plateau, right? It looks like a plateau. And in reality, the waist size is going down, things like that. So I do want to talk about other non scale measurements in a second. But let's go through the list here. Before just make sure we covered everything you said water retention for from hormone changes, like your menstrual cycle, illness and allergies. I think that's that's really important to understand that something like an illness, something that's a change in your routine, could potentially cause your body to react in this way. More salt and junk food. You know, I always tell people, they have that pizza and Chinese food and it's later in the evening. Just watch out. You're gonna gain like three pounds the next day, and it's not fat. Yeah. Gut content, bowel movements. What about your gut health and inflammation? Those are two other things that come to mind. Can they How can those affect your skill way? Yeah, definitely,

Louise Digby 07:11

if you're, if you've got imbalances in your gut, in the bacteria or the yeast, then that's something that can contribute to inflammation in your body can also contribute to water retention. And obviously, it can contribute to constipation as well. And those are all things that can contribute to kind of weight gain that isn't fat. So certainly your gut health is a big factor. And then another one that I've just thought of is the glycogen stores in your muscle. So if you've done some extended cardio, and you've really burned through the sugar stores in your muscle, then you're going to be a bit lighter, because not only have you lost some of the sugar, but you're losing a lot of water that is stored with that. So water weight will go down as well. Yeah, and

Philip Pape 08:02

so that's, that reminds me the time you weigh in the consistency weigh is important too, right? Because you don't want to weigh yourself right after this super hard workout necessarily, when the next day you're weighing yourself and your rest glycogen glycogen stores. Oh, and I guess the I guess the opposite could be is true as well, right? When you let's say you have a really hard leg workout, you're going to are you going to draw in some extra muscle glycogen, or there's inflammatory response from the muscle adaptation overnight that helps you gain weight, right? Have you seen that where after a really hard leg workout the next day, you might be a little bit heavier than a tip than another day?

Louise Digby 08:36

Yeah, that can definitely be the case. And I was talking to someone recently who is kind of like an expert in, in the glycogen sort of area. And he was talking about how he actually looks at the scales to help him to see, you know, with what his glycogen stores alike, and wherever his body is ready to do cardio or wherever he needs to replenish his glycogen stores. And you know, that's for someone who is, you know, knows that their their weight is quite steady. But yeah, it just goes to show that, you know, the scales mean a hell of a lot more than just how much fat you're gaining or losing.

Philip Pape 09:13

So true. And that so that sounds like something a bodybuilder might do as well during prep, or they're using sodium and fluid to manipulate things. And that's the same thing that happens when somebody gets off of a diet, right? When they come back to maintenance, they're gonna gain a couple pounds just from all that water coming in the extra carbs and so on. So would you recommend this is always a controversy? And I'll tell you what I do after you answer. But do you recommend weighing daily for people so that they understand their individual patterns and gather that level of precision or is that too much for some people?

Louise Digby 09:45

I think it's a very individual thing. I work with lots of women who benefit from really reducing how often they weigh themselves, I think, particularly at the beginning of your weight loss journey. I ticularly, when you're coming at it from a more holistic approach, where you're not just starving yourself to weight loss, sometimes the progress can be slower at first where you're working on optimizing your health so that you can lose weight in a healthy way. And I think because the progress can be a bit slower at first, that can be really demoralizing. And you can kind of overlook the real results that you're getting, and other changes that might be happening in your body. So you know, in that scenario, it's often a good idea to weigh less and weekly is often better, if not monthly, sometimes not at all, it might be better to do measurements or that kind of thing with your clothes. But then there are other people who find the scales really motivating whether they've gained or not, you know, some people say that they've lost weight, and that spares more than other people, or that same type of person might see that they've not lost weight, and then that might motivate them to refocus and change what they're doing. So if you're someone like that, then I think great, weigh yourself every day. Yeah,

Philip Pape 11:08

awesome. I mean, it's a great answer, right, is you have to understand yourself. You know, I also even to extend that would say, don't necessarily assume that past patterns and emotional relationships with the scale would necessarily continue. Like I think you have to evaluate where you are, you know, today and maybe work with a coach like you who can help help you understand what you need for that phase for that goal for whatever you're going for. Because someone who says, Well, if I don't weigh myself, how do I know I'm making progress? That's where you could say, these other ways tell us that we're making progress. So why don't we get into a couple of those you already mentioned, you mentioned something, but just let's start listing and going through so people understand, hey, there's a lot, there's a holistic approach here, we can say that helps us understand that we were making progress toward that goal. Yeah, so

Louise Digby 11:53

I mentioned measurements. So this might be getting a fabric tape measure. And measuring all different places on your body, particularly around your tummy is a great place to measure because for most people, that's the really bothersome weight that they want to get rid of, that's quite meaningful progress to measure. And also, you know, finding an item of clothing or a few items of clothing, perhaps that you want to get into, or that you know, kind of a little bit tight, that can be a really nice way to see your progress. Because it's it's quite easy to see all over your body, how things are changing. If you do that. Some people do really well with taking photos, and then comparing the photos, you know, might be each week or each month, then you can get a really visual way of seeing how your body is changing. And then I also think it's really important to look at other health indicators. So with my clients, I really like to monitor energy levels, and cravings, and sleep quality, and like PMS, and bloating and those types of things. Because those are the really common bothersome symptoms that tend to crop up when we're not best supporting our health. And we're not eating right for ourselves, but they all improve when we're meeting our body's needs when we're getting the exercise, right. So those are really good things to monitor. And if you see you've got a few weeks, we're actually you know that your scores for all of those have come down as in got worse, then, you know, that might be a time to reassess and look at what you're actually doing to see if you're on the right track. Yeah,

Philip Pape 13:34

exactly. So I mean, scale weight is just this one tiny measurement in a sea of so much goodness here with like you said, biofeedback, energy sleep, you said bloating, I don't know if you mentioned hunger, but I mean, you know, things like that, and the photos and the clothes, and it all comes together. And any one of those things I've seen with clients can be individually bothersome, potentially if they've got some history. But when you start to put them together, I think that takes a little bit of the little bit of emotion out when you start to correlate what's going on. I want to talk about the difference between weight loss and fat loss. And I know you talk about weight loss and weight management in your in your bio, and it's a very common term. I'm on this crusade to like use the term fat loss almost exclusively. However, I do understand we, you know, if you've got to lose 20 pounds of fat, you're gonna probably lose some pounds of weight. Fine, we get that. But why is what's the difference in your mind? How do you think of the messaging and communication of this, this topic? And what we really should be focusing on here when it comes to our health and, and our aesthetics to? Yeah,

Louise Digby 14:37

you're definitely right that we should be talking about fat loss and not weight loss because as we've said, you know, you can, you can lose a lot of fat but not see any real changes on the scales. So talking about it in those terms, I think is helpful. And you know, there are scales that you can get that will tell you you know your fat percentage, your muscle percentage and so I think you Keep an eye on those is a good idea that you know, they're not perfect, and they are affected by time of day and hydration status and that sort of thing. But they can be a good way of a good measure of the real progress that you're making. Because you know, if you're losing muscle, then that's really not a good thing. We don't want that to be happening. Because if you're losing muscle you're losing, you know, metabolic rate, your metabolic rate is going to be decreasing and burning fewer calories at rest, and it's gonna be more likely that you're going to regain fat, you know, when you when you go back to kind of eating a more normal diet? So yeah, I think we do need to be paying closer attention to that itself, as opposed to just the weight?

Philip Pape 15:45

Or do you work exclusively on the the fat loss side? Or the weight loss side? And? Or do you also work on the gaining side? Because that's a whole separate issue of when people are gaining weight to gain muscle? How often are you working in that side of it?

Louise Digby 15:59

I just work on the weight loss of balance side of things, because, like you say, is a whole different thing. And, you know, if you're someone who's trying to gain weight, whether that's gain muscle or gain fat, it's kind of similar in a way in that, you know, we still want to optimize your health. It's kind of a very different mindset, I find, yeah,

Philip Pape 16:21

yeah. No, it's totally different. I was just curious. So getting back to the scale a little bit, when we talk about, we talked about how the frequency of wanes and fixate fixations on numbers, can do we know from the evidence or from experience to scale obsession, lead to disordered eating or disordered exercise habits. I mean, I think there's, there's kind of an obvious answer there. But there's also a, like, what do we mean by that? In other words, let's tie it to the importance of using the scale weight to some level, because we need to versus obsessing about it, and then maybe breaking free from that mindset. What are your thoughts on that?

Louise Digby 16:58

Well, why often see in my clients, the ones that weigh themselves very regularly, not all of them, but a lot of them is that the scale can cause a lot of stress. And, you know, that could be because the weights going up, but they've been trying really, really hard. Or it could be because the scale is not gone down. Or just that they can't make sense of, you know, the different fluctuations. And that, that can very easily become an obsessive thing. And in the stress that that causes you, I find for a lot of people, it, it makes it less likely that they're going to be consistent with their healthy habits, because they feel like things aren't working or because the stress of it all makes them want to comfy, or, you know, do these kinds of self sabotaging behaviors. So that's kind of a trend that I tend to see, which is why often recommend to wait a little bit less often, and focus more on those non scale victories to to keep yourself motivated. You know, because I think also, you know, week by week, when you when you're going through a weight loss journey, the changes are so gradual that sometimes we can actually really acknowledge that they're happening. But if we can kind of keep a log each week of whether that's weights or measurements, or, you know, kind of your health markers, then when we look back, and we see where we started from that can be really, really motivating. And it can help us to, to have a much better kind of appreciation of how far we've come. Yeah,

Philip Pape 18:43

yeah, I struggle with this to Louise, where, like, if a client wants a very precise path, you know, we want I want as much data as possible, but I also don't want them to every day be reaching out to me and saying, oh, no, my weight went up. Oh, no weight, my weight went down. Oh, right. And at the same time, how do you? How do you get the best of both, right, like, so one thing I do is trendway. I try to focus more on a trend right? Like say, let's, let's ignore this scale away, but take it and look at the trend. But again, we can't change human nature, oftentimes when it comes to obsessing over these things. So okay, I think we have not that we beat that to death, but we talked a lot about the scale. Let's talk a little bit about the things that influence that a little more detailed, specifically hormones because I know a lot of people in general and women especially are not just one menstrual cycle changes but hormones in general and stress especially right cortisol and stress and the impact on visceral and belly fat and cravings, lack of sleep, like all of those things I'd like to get into what you think is the order of priority for most people knowing that everyone's different, but like when you work with clients, what's what are the top three issues that have have nothing to do with food? Nothing to do with training, but still affect their like weight and fat management?

Louise Digby 19:57

Yeah, this is the message that I'm consistently trying to out there is that there's a lot more to it than just food and exercise. And these underlying factors have a really big impact. So in terms of the top three things really difficult to narrow it down. This is so different for everyone. But no hormones has got to be up there. You know. And when I say hormones, a lot of people will instantly think of sex hormones, but really, I'm talking about all hormones in your body, because that can incorporate your sex hormones, stress hormones, thyroid hormones, blood sugar, blood sugar, hormones, brain chemicals, all of those things, they all in their own ways will interact with the way that your body burns and stores fats. So for example, your thyroid hormones really control the speed of your metabolism. And particularly in women, we see it all the time where thyroids are under functioning, the typical tests that you have done at your doctors are so basic, they don't detect most imbalances. But when you run just a slightly more detailed test, you can see that actually, very often it's not functioning optimally, and that will have a really big impact on your progress. So thyroids really important. Blood sugar hormones are really key, your insulin levels are higher than optimal, then you're going to be spending too much time in fat storage mode. And it's going to be very difficult to get into fat burning mode, without taking steps to address that raised insulin level. And then cortisol, like you mentioned, is another key hormone as well. And, you know, it's one that when it is elevated, and is for so many people because of just the modern lives that we live, it really drives fat storage, particularly around your tummy. And it's a very disruptive hormone. So it will disrupt your sex hormones, it will slow down your thyroid forever, it will disrupt your gut function, cause inflammation, deplete your nutrients, etc, you know, it disrupts everything. So that is, you know, another key hormone. So yeah, the hormones really, really big. And then I take gut health is another big factor as well. And it's kind of for similar reasons, really, because your gut is very involved in how we process our hormones. So we eliminate particularly our estrogens by the liver and into the guts, and they can be reabsorbed, if our gut isn't functioning so well. And then that can cause hormonal imbalance. And the gut can also be a real source of inflammation and toxins, both of which can drive weight loss resistance, and hormonal disruption. In my clients, we very often test the guard. And we so often see that that guy is not functioning optimally in many, many people, whether there's obvious gut issues or not, no, sometimes they've got appears to be functioning well. But when we take a closer look, the balance isn't good with the bacteria and the yeast, they're not absorbing very well. And then, because your gut is connected to everything that's going on the body impacts everything.

Philip Pape 23:17

All right, yeah, that that makes a lot of sense. And, you know, before people get scared that, okay, everything is gonna just stop functioning, because they've got, you know, an imbalance here or there, would you first question is, would you say that a vast majority people can, through some simple lifestyle changes move the needle significantly? And we want to put that out there first. Yeah,

Louise Digby 23:39

definitely. And, you know, I think one of the really motivating things is that the types of things that you need to do to, to kind of get the foundations in place to support the health of your hormones, your gut, your liver, and all these different systems are very similar, you know, so things like making sure you've got enough protein in your diet, making sure you're eating enough overall, hydration, and you know, we can get into the more but you know, there's some core foundations that impact all these systems in no really positive way. Hi,

24:15

my name is Nancy. I'd love to give a massive thank you to Philip of waits and waits for his work with my 16 year old daughter, when my 16 year old came to me, you know, she wanted some support with her nutrition. She wasn't happy with her body image and the trends that her weight was going. We were very concerned about what kind of help we could get for her. And all of those concerns were completely allayed by work with Philip, you know, he was so respectful of any of our concerns. He adopted any of his programs to really fit working with a team rather than the busy professionals that he normally works with. His coaching style really resonated with her and we're just literally so grateful that he has taught her so many of the skills and life habits that we hope now she'll take For your her entire life. So huge. Thank you, Philip.

Philip Pape 25:04

Is there something beyond the big thing so and I've seen this as well, there's like the 8020 approach. But then there's like the 9010. In other words, a lot of people are just have very simple but big things that they can change, like the protein, like training hydration. And it may take them a while to get there, because it is far from where they are today. But then they take steps to get there. And now they're operating at this really good new baseline. But there's still some more that they can optimize, let's call it or there's a little bit more to go, let's say once they've gotten there, what would you put in that category, you know, like nutrient deficiencies, or food sensitivities? Or, you know, like, you've got the basics. Now, what is there this one extra step that you can take?

Louise Digby 25:45

Yeah, so the basics are absolutely key. And that's where we start with with everyone that I work with. And then then it comes down to figure it out what your specific imbalances are. And so often, the best way to do that is with testing, if that's available to you. And then you can decide what your key focus needs to be, is it gut health? Is it hormones, is it reducing inflammation, and then once you know what those things are, then that really means taking just kind of more focused steps, in terms of it might mean up in your levels of Omega three, or it might mean avoiding certain foods that drive inflammation in your body, or eating foods to help develop a really diverse range of bacteria in the gut. And you can do lots of these things at the same time to help to create that balance. But sometimes, you might need a bit more of a targeted intervention. Particular when it comes to the gut, for example, if you had like an overgrowth of bacteria, then it might be that you need to do something for a short period, like a month or two, to help reduce down that overgrowth of bacteria. So you know, the types of things that we might recommend to get a good foundation in place are great, but sometimes we need to do things that are a little bit more intense for a short period to help restore balance.

Philip Pape 27:16

Yeah, like an elimination diet, something like that. Yeah. Okay. Yeah, no, that's great when you talk about testing, so that's another area that can get muddy, because there are, there's the medical establishment, which can be iffy. And it depends on where you live, right? And depends on what country you're in and who you have access to an insurance. There's also functional medical practitioners, which again, is a huge spectrum. And then there's coaches as well, all of who have a different level of expertise and scope of practice. So is there kind of a simple here, here, you know, the top place to start? Maybe maybe for women, it's getting hormones tested with saliva and urine metabolites or something, you know, like, what are their common common tests that you often recommend to people,

Louise Digby 27:59

to me, my go to is often load test, which is an organic acids test. And we like this test, because it looks at how your body is functioning. And that helps us to get a look at your unique needs, rather than just comparing you to the average normal person. So this test also helps you to kind of look at lots of different areas in the body at once with kind of one simple collection. So what I like to look at, particularly when it comes to weight loss is know what's going on in the gut, what's going on with your nutrient levels, your toxic load your thyroid, and looking at the thyroid in detail as well. In terms of other hormones, I think it can be helpful to look at those but I don't find it's actually essential. Because, you know, hormones are often used as a bit of a scapegoat when it comes to trouble with losing weight. But really, they're still a symptom, they're not the root of it all. And all the things that we've been talking about, like darts, inflammation, toxic load, these are all things that impact your hormones, though, I find that if we can instead find out what's going on with those, then we can have a real positive impact on our hormones without actually needing to test the hormones.

Philip Pape 29:17

Perfect. I'm going to repeat that for the listener hormones are often a scapegoat. They're a symptom, not the root cause and lots of things impact them, and they can tell you what's going on. But at the end of the day, it's it's something upstream lifestyle choices or something else, like you said, with your gut or nutrient deficiencies or something which still ultimately probably come down to a lifestyle choice to resolve that, you know, 90% plus of the time. So that's that's a really important message. Okay. Now, I want to segue a little bit into another aspect of this when it comes to when it comes to fat loss and dieting. And where restrictive dieting and willpower and things like that come into play, the psychological effects the physiological effects of deprivation. Because you mentioned not just having enough protein, right, but eating enough. And yet, I know you're working primarily in the fat loss side of the equation. So I suspect the majority of your clients are either at maintenance or kind of in a deficit, because you're trying to get to that goal. Now you have, okay, let's not do it too extreme, let's not do it too quickly, and deal with all the other issues that can come up tied to the way they did it before, which might have been a diet or cutting carbs or something like that. So big topic, but go for it, Louise, you can handle it. We can talk about, like energy deficiency, and you talked about eating enough?

Louise Digby 30:34

Yes, yeah, let's start that. Yeah. So we've so many of my clients, when they come to see me, they are not in anywhere near enough. And whilst we do want to be in a calorie deficit, you don't need to be in a massive calorie deficit. And when we are in a significant calorie deficit consistently, it really sends a message to our body that there is a lack of food around and you know, our bodies are really smart and adaptive, and they adapt to that low calorie intake. Or it might be if you're burning a lot of calories, your body will adapt to that high calorie expenditure. And the way that it adapts is it stops spending so much energy and calories on other functions in the body to conserve energy. So basically, we start burning fewer calories. So getting into a big calorie deficit, it kind of only works for so long, and it can set you up for rebound weight gain, because our metabolism decreases as part of that process. And also, because we tend to lose muscle when we're not eating enough. And that is going to reduce our metabolism, like I was saying before. So there's the kind of the physiological side of it. And then there's also the psychological side of that restriction. And for many people, when they do follow such a restrictive diet, it tends to lead to overeating or Binging at certain points. And particularly once the diet stops, it tends to be that there's a significant amount of overeating that goes on for a little while. And you know, that's kind of the a mindset thing, I think. So, for me, the approach that I prefer to take with my clients is to make sure that we're making they're eating enough food so that the thyroid can function properly, so they don't feel hungry, so that they can build muscle. And so that their their mitochondria, where we actually make energy and burn fat function properly. And when you do all of that, and you balance what's going on in the body with hormones in the gut, then your body becomes a lot more efficient at burning fat. And we don't need to be in this massive calorie deficit, which is so difficult to sustain in the long term.

Philip Pape 32:58

Yeah, so you talked about adaptation and eating enough while losing weight, which I think people have trouble comprehending, but just if I'm to paraphrase what you said, and also, from my experience, there's a rate at which you can do this where it doesn't, it's not that hard or that difficult, I guess I would say compared to what it could be. In other words, you, you have to have a little bit of hunger, you're going to have that. But if you're making the right choices, because we can get into Okay, high satiety foods and all that fun stuff, but just simply the rate of loss and the amount of deficit, your body doesn't quite perceive it as this massive, you know, I hate to say starvation, because there's no such thing as like starvation mode, but you know, it doesn't perceive that you're just going to starve. It's more like, I'm a little bit short of resources right now. But I can kind of function in general. And you've, you've probably experienced this personally to lose when you go in a fat loss phase. Like I know, sometimes I want to go more aggressively, say, knowing that I have more calories to work with, and yet to my body that's still pretty darn aggressive. And it's like starts to fight back, say, oh, let's turn the dial down a little bit. You know, same thing with clients, they want to go all out and like, let's turn it back a little bit, because what you'll find is that you'll actually make progress week after week. You know, it might take an extra few weeks, but it actually doesn't take extra time. Because if you went too aggressive, you'd either overeat or binge or give up or lose muscle or something along the way. Yeah, I know you say something because I'm just rambling. Go ahead.

Louise Digby 34:23

I was gonna say to add to all of that is that at the same time is quite stressful for your body to be in a significant calorie deficit. And, you know, when back when we were cavemen and there was a famine, our bodies had a self preservation mechanism, which was to raise cortisol levels and that helped us to get our muscle and break it down and turn it into sugar to give us fuel to keep going. So when we're not eating enough consistently, it drives up our cortisol levels and that contributes to stubborn fat around your tummy, but it will also contributes to muscle wasting, which, you know, neither of those things are aligned with your weight loss goals. So it's, you know, can take a little bit to get your head around it badly not eating enough can hold your weight loss progress. Yeah.

Philip Pape 35:15

Yeah, it's like, it's like the short game, or the long game is the short game or whatever the phrase is where, like, if you do it, with some patience, it'll actually happen faster than if you try to rush it. Yeah. Yeah, no, I think that's great. We talked about metabolic adaptation all the time as well. And it's, it's important how you, you separate it a bit the hormonal impacts as well, from just the just the rate of loss and the hunger and everything else. Because they're, it's almost like each thing stacks on the other, right, like you said, cortisol goes up. So then your stress level goes up. So then you get hungrier, so then you don't sleep as much. So then, right, and it just stacks. And it's like, it's more than just this equation, you know, huh? Yeah, definitely. So I Okay, I, we kind of talked about the emotional side of it a bit. I don't know if there's also emotional eating and that kind of aspect you want to touch on because when we're in fat loss, even if let's say we've yet somebody is working with you, Louise as a coach, and you've kind of educated them on the types of foods that might serve them, you know, more nutrient dense foods and high satiety foods. And I'm sure your philosophy is like you still want to have things you enjoy and have some indulgences in there for your mental health. How do we still make sure not to fall into that old trap some people have of emotional eating and succumbing to that, knowing that we're also restricting, in a way, right, restricting their way, as we go through that fat loss phase? How do we balance all of that? Yeah,

Louise Digby 36:41

I think doing the mindset work is absolutely key. You know, it's all well and good, knowing what you need to do. But being able to implement that consistently, is the most important thing. And in order to be able to be consistent, we need to address our mindset monkeys, as I like to call them. Because you know, stuff going on that is causing us to self sabotage or feeling guilty about what we're eating. If we're feeling negative around ourselves, then all of that are things that are going to be obstacles that will stop you from being consistent. So I always think it's important to do some work around our relationship with food, how we think about food, because from a lot of diet clubs, that most people that I work with have done at some point in their lives, they get taught that there's good and there's bad foods, and that if you eat good foods, then well done you you're you're good, you're doing really well. You eat bad foods, then shame on you, your willpower is weak, you're weak. And that's kind of the message that is given. And it's, it's just not true. And it's it's not helpful, either. And, you know, the fact is, is that there is no good or bad foods, and all food is good, even the foods that we might tend to think bad, they still give us sustenance, you know, they're still giving us something, and even, you know, the most nutritious food in the world. If that's all we had, then that's not going to be good for us either. So I tried to get my clients thinking of foods in a bit of a different way. And kind of thinking about what that food is giving them in terms of nourishment, and kind of more on a scale of nourishing to really nourishing. So moving away from from talking about and thinking about foods is good and bad. And also, you know, along with that, try not to beat yourself up if you are, you know, stepping off plan or eating something unplanned. Because again, it just doesn't help. What the research has shown is that people who feel guilty and beat themselves up after eating something, quote unquote bad, are more likely to go ahead and eat even more of it. Because they're self soothing that guilt that they're experiencing or that shame that they're experiencing. So if we can work on allowing ourselves to have some indulgences and give ourselves a little bit of leeway. And also just practice, just you know, when we do kind of fall off track, actually just practicing acknowledging that and accepting it and moving on, then that can make a world of difference with our progress.

Philip Pape 39:21

Yeah, love it. I definitely the the acceptance of the emotions and acknowledging and seeing them as opposed to saying that we're going to be able to clamp them off or change them is a very positive approach as as his self compassion and giving yourself some some room grace, leeway, whatever. I do, like the nourishment scale that you mentioned, because I often struggle with the messaging of when we talk about food because again, there is no good or bad like you said, but we still throw in words like healthy and fuel and nourishment. It's like, where do we use the language properly right to still to take it away out of that moral decision that it used to be and put it more in a okay, that's just the lines with some level of fuel and nourishment for me based on my goal now and you know, it could be just less nurturing or more nourishing, there's no like, other side of the scale right here that bad, right? And then. So when it comes to emotional eating, I definitely get all of that it's a process, there's mindset work required, what about the client you've worked with? Who maybe you've done some of that work, and they, they go through a fat loss phase, let's say they've lost 1520 pounds, but they're still not where they want to be, from how they look their body image, right? You know, and they're kind of defeated, in a way, even though they've made all this progress? How do you deal with that kind of situation, or how to somebody listening do that for themselves?

Louise Digby 40:39

Yeah, I've definitely worked with women who have hit their goals, but not been happy with what they see in the mirror. And that can happen for a number of reasons. You know, it could be loose skin, it could be because particularly for women, when you lose weight, you tend to have a little bit more of wrinkles on your skin. And, you know, some women I've worked with have actually decided to regain a little bit of weight intentionally, to kind of get to a better place. But ultimately, what we need to do is we need to practice and, and do the work so that we can love ourselves, no matter what shape or size that we are. And part of that, I think, when we are approaching our weight loss journey, we need to come at it from a loving position, as opposed to a loathing position, losing weight, the weight, because we know that that is good for us physically, because it's going to enable us to be more active, do more the family, whatever those motivation points are, rather than doing it because you hate yourself, because you think you'll love yourself when you're slimmer. And so you know, there's lots of things that you can do to help build up your body image and, you know, things like, again, the language that we use, when we think about ourselves, or when we talk about ourselves, just practicing, you know, not talking about ourselves in a negative way, and really thinking about and talking about ourselves in the way that you would a loved one or a friend or child, you know, be just giving ourselves some compassion and being nice to ourselves. And that can take some real practice because, you know, I catch myself doing it as well, where you, you know, can really berate yourself and put yourself down for not being able to do something that you thought you could do or be consistent with something. And again, it just doesn't help to be like to put yourself down like that. So if we can practice just being nicer to ourselves, then, you know, it takes a little bit of time, but it turns into a habit. And then that just helps us to feel better about ourselves in time. It's

Philip Pape 42:50

funny, because in my community, one of the most common comments that I have to give people is not have to give people that give people's reframing kind of reply, like let's reframe what you just said, right? Because like you said, not only do we have this negative self talk, and we label and such, but we were doing it to ourselves, which should be the person we love the most in a way and yet, just asking yourself, would you say this to somebody else out loud? Probably big a big no, like you would even recoil from it. So if we can kind of turn that around on ourselves. And make it a habit. With that reframing. I definitely love that. And even myself, since I've become a coach, it's every time I think of like, I can't statement or I have to or an I am statement. It's like no, these these things aren't set in stone. How do we reframe that language? So really good advice. It's not easy, right, Louise? It's simply not easy. We got to work on it. But it's good to hear that. Let's we're getting close to wrapping up. Do you have like, top two or three tips for when we talk about sustainable fat loss and the overall process, something that everybody could benefit from, you know, like, what they might be principles that you have? Or actual, like practices, like, you know, you mentioned protein that could be in those, I don't care, what do you think is the top three things that would make a biggest impact to someone listening? I

Louise Digby 44:06

think I'm gonna say it partly because we haven't really talked about it much. But also because it's really important. Sleep, make sure you're sleeping enough. Because you can do your diet perfectly right, you can be doing all the stress management, all the right workouts, but if you're not sleeping, then all of the benefits you get from that are going to be really limited. And also you're going to feel rubbish, your moods going to be lower, your cravings are going to be higher and everything's just going to be harder. So we can prioritize getting enough sleep and good quality sleep as well. It will make a world of difference to how you feel and your progress. You know, sometimes I have clients come to me who say, Please, I've I've not changed anything. I'm still you know, eating Wow, I've been trying really hard, but suddenly my weight loss is plateaued. Then we start digging into things we say why Hang on a minute, you were sleeping seven, eight hours night, and over the past few weeks, you've been getting six hours. So let's start there. And then when we address the sleep, suddenly, things start moving in the right direction again. So yes, sleep, massive

Philip Pape 45:14

sleep. And before we continue there, so just read the recent issue of body by science, which is Dr. Bill Campbell's Research Review, he reviewed a study that just came out, that took two groups, and they put them in a sleep lab, or not one group and a sleep lab. And they had to do an experiment two different times for the same group. So they didn't have like, it was like a crossover study. And in one case, they got eight, eight and a half hours of sleep, and another they got five and a half. And they were on the exact same calorie intake, like totally controlled. And the group that had the eight and a half had much better improvement in body composition, right. So they actually built muscle and lost fat. And asleep group only, only didn't lose, they didn't gain lean mass actually lost lean mass and they gain fat was the opposite, right? Just at the exact same calorie intake. So again, just to reinforce your point of how important sleep is,

Louise Digby 46:00

yeah, because you know, we've got to rest and have that recovery time in order to build the muscle and reap the benefits from the workouts that we're doing. And all the repair that should be happening from all the good nutrition that you're putting in. So yeah, sleep, absolute top priority. And stress management is another really important one for very similar reasons to sleep, you know, it kind of has a similar impact on your body as sleep deprivation does. And is just so the type of person that I worked with who is a woman who's in kind of their mid stage of life, tends to be very highly stressed, always on the go, never really stopping or having any real me time or downtime. And so they spent all their time in fight or flight mode, and never really get into the rest and digest mode, which we need to be in, in order to be able to burn fat and you know, repair and recover. So, you know, I think focusing on some stress management techniques, obviously reducing stress where you can, and helping to support your body to get into that rest and digest mode, you know, for like deep breathing, meditation, cold showers, and many, many other things that you can do to help to stimulate that parasympathetic nervous system.

Philip Pape 47:21

what's your what's your favorite stress management technique for you?

Louise Digby 47:24

I think just doing some deep belly breathing, because it takes a minute. And you can just do it anywhere, you know, you'd be sitting in traffic, or you can present at your desk or just before you eat. And you know, there's research on it just show that it does lower your cortisol levels quite quickly. And you know, change that nervous system pattern. And it has a significant impact if you can practice that regularly. Yeah,

Philip Pape 47:50

I know that I know, there are probably apps for this. I wonder there's got to be podcasts out there where they just take you through breathing techniques, right. All right, what's the third one? Because we love lists, we're just going with three, right? Yeah,

Louise Digby 48:02

I think I probably come back to protein. Because if we're not getting enough protein in then not going to be building muscle, we're not going to have the fuel we need to make our hormones and to repair our guts and support our immune system, and so many other things. So protein is absolutely key. And, you know, it's interesting, because I see real mixed messages out there on social media. And I keep seeing more conventional doctors who are saying, you know, kind of like, trying to debunk the the message of protein and say that, you know, protein isn't as important everyone's making it out to be. But it really is important. And you know, you've just, you just see the difference, you probably see it in your own clients when you up the protein. If it's from quality sources, then the world of difference it makes to everything keeps you full, keeps you energized, stops the cravings, helps you sleep. And you can just go on and on with all the benefits of having enough protein. For

Philip Pape 49:03

sure, for sure, I can never end going on about protein because it is so important, like you said, and even especially during fat loss, when it tends to need to be higher to preserve that muscle, you also get the benefits of it being higher, like you said, with satiety, energy, stuff like that. And it also gets to tend to tend to, to get you to eat more whole foods in general, because you're seeking out animal and plant sources that have the protein. It's funny, I did an episode A while back called like the dangers of low protein for longevity, because that was that's the message they're pushing and somehow lowering your protein helps you live longer. And when you dissect it, it's like rat studies and there's so many things wrong with the methodology. And you don't get you're now killing all the benefits of having protein and building muscle. And that's going to kill you long before any of these other things get you to that like 90 year old Yeah. Cool. All right. So I like to ask this of all guests, Louise as we wrap up, is there a question you wish I had asked and if so, what's your answer?

Louise Digby 49:56

Good question. Is there

Philip Pape 49:59

no I know

Louise Digby 50:02

I can't think of anything my mind's gone completely blank.

Philip Pape 50:05

It happens to me too. And people throw that on me and I think I would have known better by like turning to have have one in my pocket. But no, we covered a lot of topics I took you kind of around the whole circle of things. You know, the idea of nourishing and adding in and supporting your body is so so important. And I think we don't get an get enough messaging on the like the sleep and the stress and things like that you talked about, probably because it's, they come across as like boring topics and oh, here we go. Again, I need to do this, but we need to continue putting that message out there and then also supporting people on easy ways to do that. Because, you know, so people don't have any excuses. Anyway. Good stuff, Louise. Where Where can listeners learn more about you and your work? So

Louise Digby 50:44

my website is Louise Digby nutrition.com. Or you can connect with me on social media Instagram, Facebook Tik Tok, by searching at Louise Digby nutrition. And then I also have a podcast, which is the thriving metabolism. And you can find that on any podcast platform.

Philip Pape 51:01

Awesome. Thriving metabolism. Absolutely. I'll put your IG I'll put your website in there. I think we have a masterclass that we want to send people to potentially there. So I'll put that in. And it's been a pleasure, Louise. It was a lot of fun time really flew by a lot of great tips in here for the listener and I thank you for coming on. Thank

Louise Digby 51:19

you so much for having me. Yeah, I feel like we really covered some important stuff today, for sure.

Philip Pape 51:25

Thank you for tuning in to another episode of wits end weights. If you found value in today's episode, and know someone else who's looking to level up their wits or weights. Please take a moment to share this episode with them. And make sure to hit the Follow button in your podcast platform right now to catch the next episode. Until then, stay strong.

Philip Pape 6/4/24 Philip Pape 6/4/24

Ep 178: Doing THIS in the Bedroom is Killing Your Fat Loss, Muscle Growth, Hormones, & Metabolism

There is one thing you're doing in the bedroom that might be compromising your gains and your health. No, not that. Or that. Not that either. It's...your sleep routine! Philip tackles the often neglected aspect of health and fitness - sleep. He goes beyond the usual advice of “get 7-9 hours of sleep” and explores the significant impact of sleep on your body composition, fat loss, and muscle gain. Is it possible to compensate for poor sleep with diet or exercise? How significant is sleep compared to nutrition and exercise? He answers these questions and more, offering valuable insights for busy, ambitious individuals like you seeking to improve sleep quality and quantity.

There is one thing you're doing in the bedroom that might be compromising your gains and your health.

No, not that. Or that. Not that either. It's...your sleep routine!

Do you really need 7-9 hours of sleep? Can you compensate for poor sleep with diet or exercise? What if you could turbocharge your metabolism, balance your hormones, and redefine your body composition with some tweaks to your sleep habits?

Today, Philip (@witsandweights) tackles the often neglected aspect of health and fitness - sleep. He goes beyond the usual advice of “get 7-9 hours of sleep” and explores the significant impact of sleep on your body composition, fat loss, and muscle gain. Is it possible to compensate for poor sleep with diet or exercise? How significant is sleep compared to nutrition and exercise? He answers these questions and more, offering valuable insights for busy, ambitious individuals like you seeking to improve sleep quality and quantity. As a bonus, you can access a free guide, “Better Sleep, Better Body,” packed with evidence-based strategies and practical tips to optimize sleep habits for improved metabolism, hormones, and body composition.

Today, you’ll learn all about:

3:51 The science of sleep
6:10 The connection between sleep and fat loss
11:26 Sleep and muscle gain
16:37 Sleep’s effect on overall health
24:48 Seven practical tips to improve sleep quality and quantity
40:06 Outro

Episode resources:

Download the Better Sleep, Better Body guide FREE

Episode summary:

If you've been tirelessly working on your fitness goals but seem to hit a wall, it's time to turn your attention to something often neglected: sleep. Unbeknownst to many, sleep plays a pivotal role in not only muscle recovery and growth but also in weight management and overall well-being. In our latest podcast episode, we delve deep into the science behind the critical role of sleep in achieving fitness success.

Starting with the stages of sleep, REM (Rapid Eye Movement) and non-REM, it's clear that both play significant roles in the body's restorative processes. During the deep phases of non-REM sleep, your body releases anabolic hormones such as growth hormone and testosterone, which are crucial for muscle protein synthesis and hypertrophy. REM sleep, on the other hand, is associated with memory consolidation and emotional regulation, also aiding in skill acquisition and performance, which are vital for technical sports and even weightlifting.

Yet, many are unaware of the negative impact that sleep deprivation can have on these processes. When sleep is compromised, the release of these growth-promoting hormones is stifled, leading to impaired muscle gains and strength. Moreover, the importance of sleep extends beyond the gym. It has significant implications for our overall health, with insufficient sleep linked to an increased risk of cardiovascular disease, systemic inflammation, and even accelerated biological aging.

The episode doesn't just highlight the problems but also offers solutions. By providing actionable, evidence-based strategies, it encourages listeners to enhance both their sleep quality and quantity. Simple changes in managing light exposure, maintaining a consistent sleep schedule, and establishing a pre-bedtime ritual can have profound effects on your sleep health.

It's time to debunk the myth that one can function optimally on minimal sleep. The reality is that our bodies often mask the true extent of impairment caused by sleep deprivation. By prioritizing seven to eight hours of quality sleep, alongside proper nutrition and training, you'll be equipping your body to achieve the health and fitness goals you've set for yourself.

To sum up, sleep is not just a luxury; it's an indispensable component of fitness success. By recognizing its importance and implementing the tips shared in this episode, you can transform your body, enhance your athletic performance, and achieve optimal health. Embrace the power of sleep and unlock the full potential of your fitness journey.

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Get notified of new episodes. Use your favorite podcast platform or one of the buttons below. Then hit “Subscribe” or “Follow” and you’re good to go!

Transcript

Philip Pape 00:00

If you're battling away trying to lose fat, build muscle or optimize your hormones and metabolism, and it's just not working for you. Despite seemingly doing everything right, you might be overlooking one crucial factor, and it lies in our innermost Sanctum the bedroom. In this episode I reveal what you're doing in the bedroom that could be sabotaging your fitness goals, and how some simple but surprising tweaks can unlock your body's full potential without changing how you eat or workout. Welcome to the wit's end weights podcast. I'm your host, Philip pape, and this twice a week podcast is dedicated to helping you achieve physical self mastery by getting stronger. Optimizing your nutrition and upgrading your body composition will uncover science backed strategies for movement, metabolism, muscle and mindset with a skeptical eye on the fitness industry

Philip Pape 00:51

so you can look and feel your absolute best. Let's dive right in Whitson weights community Welcome to another solo episode of The Whitson weights podcast. In our last episode 177 How anatomy impacts your gut muscle mass hormones and health with Justin Caudill, Justin shared some pretty fascinating information about anatomy and how our digestive system can lead to better nutrient absorption and overall health, and also how our bodies physically adapt to training, we explored the impacts of anatomical knowledge on your personal health and fitness strategies to optimize your nutrition and training. Today for episode 178. Doing this in the bedroom is killing your fat loss, muscle growth hormones and metabolism, we're tackling a crucial but often overlooked aspect of your health and fitness journey. Something you do in the bedroom, probably every single night. Adults do it, kids do it. And it's not just on the Discovery Channel. That's right, I'm talking about sleep. It is not a sexy topic, in most circumstances, but it is extremely important. And you've probably heard most of the generic sleep tips like get seven or nine hours or you've heard claims about sleep hacks that will transform your life do this one thing and you're gonna get massively improved sleep. But I want to go beyond those cliches, even though we're going to have some probably common recommendations here as well as some surprising ones. And we want to explore the evidence on how sleep impacts your physique, your body composition, and the goals that you have for those, including especially their impact on Fat Loss and Muscle Gain both sides of the equation, because the question is always can we out train or can we out diet poor sleep? Right? Some people think, Hey, I'm just a five hour guy type of person, no big deal. But is that true? How much does sleep really move the needle compared to nutrition and training? You know what strategies actually work to improve sleep quality and quantity but especially quality for you know, busy, ambitious people like you listen to the show that may not have a lot of time, you're trying to get a lot done, and you still want to get the quality z's. And we're still going to answer some of these and get into some more side topics throughout this conversation, conversation of one but conversation with you my dear listener. So before we dive in, I've put together what else a totally free guide called better sleep better body that has all of the choice cuts from today's episode, simply head over to Whitson weights.com/free or click the link in the show notes. And by the way, if you go to Whitson weights comm slash free, you're gonna see a ton of guides now. So if you missed some in the past, go check that out. Because even if you don't want the one on sleep, there are plenty others there to check out. Now inside the better sleep better body guide, you're going to find the evidence based strategies and specific lists of tips to optimize sleep habits for improved quality, where it most optimally impacts your metabolism, your hormones, your body composition. Alright, so download the better sleep better body guide at the link in the show notes or head over to Whitson weights.com/free Alright, let's get into today's topic doing this in the bedroom. And you know what it is now is killing your fat loss muscle growth hormones and metabolism. Starting with the science of sleep right before we get into the impact of it, we have to understand what's actually happening in your body when you sleep. So when you sleep you're cycling between two main stages rem and non REM REM stands for Rapid Eye Movement. And of course non REM is everything else. And non REM is further divided into three sub stages. And non REM takes up about 75 to 80% of your total sleep time. And then in the deepest non REM stages. That is when your body releases anabolic hormones like growth hormone and testosterone that we love for muscle protein synthesis and recovery from training. So right off the bat, I want to make that connection in your head that the body needs to get to these deeper quality phases for a long enough time to really trigger a lot of that recovery that you get between your training bouts. This is huge. This is huge. Now your body also does a lot of other restorative assesses during non REM, like clearing out your metabolic waste products from the brain. Now the other 20 to 25% of sleep is REM. And this is what we know is the vivid dream state right? Rem is important for learning for consolidating your memories, emotional regulation. And then over the course of the night, you're gonna cycle through both of these through the non rem and the REM, multiple times. And non REM is going to dominate the first half of the night and REM ramps up in the second half. And again, we can see why duration and quantity is also important. And for some of you who have an aura ring like I do, you can get all geeky about this and actually see which phases you're in throughout the night pretty good at detecting that, based on a wide variety of factors. One of those I think is is heart rate. And another might be body temperature, HRV, things like that. But regardless whether you track it or not, it's the the lifestyle actions that improve it that we care about. So both of those stages, Rem and non REM are definitely essential together for waking up feeling refreshed, right, mentally refreshed, and physically refreshed. And already you can see how sleep deprivation could undermine your effort by impairing things like muscle recovery and growth and cognitive function. So they're all important. And now we're going to take a little bit closer look at the fat loss side of the equation, right? I know a lot of you are working toward losing fat. You're wondering how sleep fits into that equation, you hear me talk about it a lot. And the connection between sleep and weight. And fat loss is very robust at this point. I can't bring someone on the show and talk about sleep without getting into some study that supports this. You know, studies show that sleeping less than seven hours per night is associated with higher BMI, higher obesity rates in controlled trials where they restrict sleep. People consistently gain weight over a few weeks when their sleep is restricted. And you might be thinking, Well, what isn't it just about calories? Well, it is but sleep is affecting your ability to burn calories and burn fat. So let's talk about that. So we understand what's happening. Because a lack of sleep is like the worst perfect storm of metabolic and hormonal disruption you can imagine of almost all the things you can do besides chronic stress, but they tend to go hand in hand, right? So one thing that a lack of sleep does it dis regulate your appetite hormones, it increases gralen which simulates stimulates hunger, and it decreases leptin, which helps you feel full. So it's both in the wrong direction. And so the result is you feel hungrier, you want to snack more, you have more cravings. And we've seen in studies people consume around 300 to 500 extra calories per day, when sleep deprived and when they're not, you know, tracking or deliberately trying to control calories, just eating intuitively, what they call ad libitum. Just whatever you want to eat, they tend to eat quite a bit more. And that's a lot, right, that's like an extra pound a week. Lack of sleep also impairs glucose metabolism, and insulin sensitivity, right. And so that means potentially say more of the carbs you eat gets stored as fat rather than going toward muscle. So it affects body composition. It also spikes cortisol, the stress hormone, we know that a lack of sleep simply disrupts your circadian rhythm. And that further encourages fat storage, especially around the midsection. So belly fat belly fat belly fat, big thing here. Besides alcohol sleep is probably the other huge disrupter. And what causes you to store around the midsection because of that cortisol spike and your body wanting to hoard energy reserves. In that area. It also a lack of sleep tanks, your testosterone by up to 10 to 15%. And since testosterone, as we know, helps maintain muscle mass and keeps body fat in check. This is like a double whammy. And then lastly it increases inflammatory markers inflammation and emerging research shows that this can be an independent risk factor, of course for weight gain over time, so nothing good from lacking sleep or sleep quality. And I mentioned that you know on top of the biological or the physiological challenges that come from it, the deprivation in sleep just makes it harder to control food cravings, and then make the choices you want to make. Right? It ramps up things like emotional eating, it diminishes your willpower, you might reach for some quick energy because you need it because of the lack of sleep. So you're gonna go for high sugar, high fat type types of foods, right processed foods, you're more likely to overeat in the evening and then that can disrupt your sleep further. Now you've got this vicious cycle, you might drink more caffeine and drink it more later in the day because you feel lack of energy. Do you see where this is all going? Now these are short term changes, and they don't guarantee that you're not gonna be able to lose weight long term or fat or, or that you're going to gain weight. Long term if you're doing other things, but they make it a lot harder they stack the deck against you. They make fat loss feel harder than it needs to be. One study found that when dieters got a full night's sleep, more than half the weight they lost was fat when they cut back to restricted time, which about five and a half hours per night. Fat Loss dropped by 55% They lost more lean mass. And there was a recent review in Dr. Bill Campbell's research review about some I'm not sure if I don't think it was the same study. But it's the same kind of result, body composition worsens when you don't get enough sleep. You know, other studies have shown higher protein intake is less protective against muscle loss during a deficit if you don't have as much sleep. So, ladies and gentlemen, you're just hurting yourself and making it a lot harder. This is why I titled the episode what I did this thing in the bedroom, a lack of sleep is killing all of these things. So the takeaway here, which is a good thing to know, because then it gives us the power back it gives us the control is that skimping on sleep erodes the effectiveness of the other things you're doing, especially your diet. And no matter how much you want to calorie cut, and make these food choices and apply willpower, it's not going to fully compensate for your body's fighting against you like this. And so what do we need to do? Well, I at minimum, there's a quantity aspect, right? We talked about the seven and nine hours of sleep, there's a validity to that range. So if you can get eight, you get nine, especially during aggressive dieting phases, aggressive fat loss phase, you're going to buffer some of the metabolic adaptations going on. You can't stop metabolic adaptation, but you can avoid making it worse by losing sleep, right? It's a non negotiable if you want not only success with your fat loss, but to make it feel easier and to make it more sustainable over the long term. So that's sleeping fat loss, it's pretty clear. Just wanted to reiterate those things for you. Let's talk about sleep and muscle gain, right? Because we have a lot of dedicated lifters in the audience, and you're working hard to build your strength and muscle, you know, you're going to the gym consistently 3456 days a week, you're crushing it, you're eating, you're in a surplus. But are you recovering enough? And you might think, well, if I'm eating all this food, do I really even need as much sleep? Yes, the science suggests that sleep is just as vital for muscle growth during a gaining phase as your training and nutrition, which is something I've had to get my arms around as well, because you would think, Okay, I'm not working against myself on the dieting department, I've got plenty of energy coming in. So is sleep really as important? Well, do you remember those anabolic hormones I mentioned that surge during deep sleep, growth hormone increases by up to 400% compared to waking levels, IGF one, testosterone, prolactin, they all rise during deep, again, deep sleep, not just sleep in general, you have to get to that deep state of sleep. And of course, these hormones, we pretty much know that they're tied to muscle protein synthesis to satellite cell proliferation, right drivers of hypertrophy, drivers of muscle mass. And then on the flip side, if you just don't have enough sleep, you're going to tank those things, you're going to tank, your testosterone and your growth hormone. And there's been research on athletes that show when participants are sleep deprived. Again, we're talking like five and a half, five, even four and a half hours of sleep is usually where they study these things, their gains in muscle and strength drop compared to people getting a full eight hours of sleep, even when they're consuming plenty of protein. And it's probably due to this impaired anabolic signaling. So we could see that the detriment on both sides of the equation, we see that it both makes fat loss harder, but it also makes muscle growth harder. Alright, now there's another aspect of sleep that I think is important to mention. And that is skill acquisition and performance. If you're doing a sport, a technical sport, or let's just be honest, having your brains your wits, right, if your wits about you doing anything, including just lifting weights, you know, you want to be able to focus and use proper form and apply and learn that skill and grow. And then you want to be on for the rest of the day. You don't want to be just tanking later on in the day. And there have been studies on athletes like tennis players, rowers, lifters, that find that when they can extend their sleep, even if it's through napping, it boosts their reaction time, their accuracy, their speed, their power. There was an experiment in 2007 Corman at all. And it had volunteers practice a thumb movement task and half of them stayed awake afterward after the task, and the other half took a 90 minute nap. And then when they were retested That evening, the people who napped perform 18% faster and maintain their accuracy. And those who are sleep deprived saw significant decline in speed and accuracy. So this is motor memory, right? This is the neurological patterns that are formed while we're practicing a skill, which is something we do during lifting as well. And sleep helps that. And scientists believe that during REM sleep, your brain replays the neural activity from practicing the new skill. It's kind of like you know, when you sleep on it, and you all of a sudden have a bright idea immediately the next day like a problem that you have difficulty solving the day before becomes easier all of a sudden, now that you've slept on it. Well, if you lifted, let's say a brand new movement, you did a new type of squat and you go to sleep and now you get enough deep REM sleep or you get the REM sleep. Your brain gets to You continue to wire and play that pattern that you just did that movement pattern. And then the connections, the neural connections in your brain are stronger. And then overnight, those memories are transferred from short term storage in the hippocampus, to long term storage in the cortex in something called systems consolidation. So cool like this is when we talk about neuromuscular adaptation and muscle memory. This is the biology behind it. I think it's fascinating. I hope I'm not putting you to sleep. Ha, ha. All right. So the application to strength training are obvious. I hope I made them obvious, right? If you want to lock in the movement patterns and the mind muscle connection from your workouts, getting sufficient REM sleep is key. If you don't, you're not just compromising muscle growth, but you're probably compromising your technique and strength gains, and then your form and potentially increasing your chance of injury. So it's not just that you're tired and sluggish. And that's why you failed to perform. It's also that your brain just doesn't have the cognitive energy that it needs from the sleep. So if you want to build muscle, listen to me, if you want to get strong build muscle perform in the gym actually make gains, and you're finding you're not, are you simply not getting enough sleep are you getting, you know, six hours of sleep every night instead of seven or eight, are not getting that quality sleep. You know, don't be afraid to sneak in naps. If you want to get some more recovering performance naps can work for a lot of people. Some people don't like them, some people don't respond, or some people get more tired when they nap. But it's definitely a lever that you can pull. Right. And again, you're not gonna you're not going to suffer from a couple of nights of disrupted sleep, we're talking about chronic sleep debt, just think about your like always behind on sleep, and then that's going to stop all of these processes. So we've talked about fat loss, we've talked about muscle gain, I want to talk about sleep and health overall. Right? This sends me again, the less sexy topic but it's critically important in many of many of you listening are in the older crowd, right? I'm in my 40s, many of you listening are at least in your 30s 40s and beyond. And health becomes more and more important and is tied into all of this. Because even the most impressive physique is worthless if you don't have the health. And if you don't have the vitality, and the longevity to enjoy it. Right. And sleep is massive in this area. For for both acute functioning, you know day to day, but also long term health. So let's look at the short and long term in the short term. A single night of poor sleep can tank your mood, it can demotivate you, right you just have less motivation. It can increase your feelings of stress of anxiety, of irritability, it impairs your focus, it impairs your productivity, your decision making. It induces a state of almost like having a beer or two like a mild state of intoxication when you don't have enough sleep. You know what I'm talking about? You know what it's like you're hungover and you didn't have anything to drink? Well, what is going on? You know, it suppresses your immune system, oh, we know this, like when you're sick, you've got to get your rest well, similarly, when you're not sick, and you don't get enough sleep, you open up yourself to viruses dramatically, this is a biological thing that actually happens. It increases perceptions of pain, it increases symptoms of chronic conditions that you might have just just the sky's the limit on that right autoimmune conditions, you might have anything that gives you certain symptoms, it might increase those and I know how this is I've got like a torn labrum in my hip. I've had it for quite a few years. And if I sit too long, it'll activate it. And if I'm tired, it'll feel worse, right? If I'm not training, or if I'm tired, it's gonna feel worse. And you probably have something like that where we don't get enough sleep, you feel it in other areas. Lack of one night of sleep can disrupt your hunger hormone. So remember that we talked about with the fat loss section, it happens immediately it disrupts your hunger hormones, leptin and ghrelin. And then you can get cravings you start over eat, even in one day. Now, one day is not going to throw off your your plans, of course, but just know that that can be a result of it. And when you have a particularly difficult week, where you feel like you've succumb to cravings, for example, evaluate the biofeedback and other factors that are associated with that. Like, did you simply lose out on your normal quality sleep? Or are you more stressed things like that, and then a lack of sleep in one day can spike your blood pressure and it can actually throw off your blood sugar control just a bit. And we know these things. Now, that's just one night. Now let's string these together. You get some chronic sleep deprivation, you know, multiple nights of insufficient sleep, and everything gets compounded. The cognitive performance deteriorates, right. Some studies show that a few weeks in a row of like six hours a night reduces performance to the same level, as is if you had 48 straight hours of no sleep. Right? And I honestly personally I can attest to that. I've had situations where several nights in a row I just had poor sleep. I don't think I've gone two weeks with less than six hours. But I've definitely gone several days with like five and a half hours of sleep. And it just really builds and you just constantly feel like you're behind. It's not good. Also, this is really important. Okay, risk of heart attack and stroke go up when you're chronically sleep deprived. One study found that five hours a night increase the risk of cardiovascular disease by 200 to 300%, compared to seven hours, markers of systemic inflammation increase, and that's a known risk factor for chronic diseases like diabetes, cancer, Alzheimer's, and even vaccine effectiveness diminishes, where people who have sleep deprivation produce fewer antibodies from a vaccine they got so if you do the flu vaccine every year, but you don't get enough sleep, that could actually reduce the effectiveness of it. Fascinating stuff. Okay, some of this I'm surprised by as I researched for this, this episode. Now, perhaps most disturbing of all of this is evidence that shows chronic sleep deprivation literally speeds up aging at the basic biological level at with telomeres. Now, I know there's mixed, there's some quackery out there when it comes to longevity research. And we talked about telomeres. Telomeres are those protective caps on the ends of your DNA. And they shorten as you age, and apparently they shortened more quickly, and people who consistently get less sleep, and it's dose dependent, which can then potentially reduce your life expectancy. All right, just take that with a grain of salt. It's not like you needed to know that fact, to worry you yet again. We know sleep deprivation is just not good all around.

Philip Pape 21:14

Hey, this is Philip and I hope you're enjoying this episode of Whitson weights. I started with some weights to help ambitious individuals in their 30s 40s and beyond, who want to build muscle lose fat and finally look like they lift. I noticed that when people transform their physique, they not only look and feel better, but they also experience incredible changes in their health, confidence and overall quality of life. If you're listening to this podcast, I assume you want the same thing to build your ultimate physique and unlock your full potential whether you're just starting out or looking to take your progress to the next level. That's why I created wit's end weights physique University, a semi private group coaching experience designed to help you achieve your best physique ever, with a personalized done for you nutrition plan, custom designed courses, new workout programs each month, live coaching calls, and the supportive community, you'll have access to everything you need to succeed. If you're ready to shatter your plateaus and transform your body and life, head over to Whitson weights.com/physique or click the link in the show notes to enroll today. Again, that's Whitson weights.com/physique. I can't wait to welcome you to the community and help you become the strongest leanest and healthiest version of yourself. Now back to the show.

Philip Pape 22:35

Now, I alluded at the very beginning of that episode to people who are like, Yeah, I'm fine. I'm five to six hours of sleep, and I'm a low quantity sleeper, right? I've said that about myself, like I can get by fine in five to six hours. And I don't need more than that. But first one thing I want to say about that is how you feel isn't necessarily the best barometer for health and functioning. And I mean that as in like, a general, okay, I'm fine. Because we are, we're really good. We're frighteningly good at adapting to chronic stress to chronic sleep loss to bad things that are life, we're just good at adapting to them. We're resilient as human beings, and then we don't perceive how impaired we are by relative comparison. Meaning if you all of a sudden, did get more sleep and did have less stress, you probably would find you feel so much better. Right? That's that's the key. And I see this for hormones as well, where women or men even, you know, feel a certain way. And they're like, Yeah, I'm fine. And then all of a sudden, we resolve some underlying issue. You know, we start strength training, eating more food and walking more, and all of a sudden, you feel great. And you're like, what happened? Well, it's because I regulate my hormones. Alright, so one more thing about that is that people in research settings who insist that they've like acclimated to shorter sleep, they perform equally as poorly on cognitive tests, as people who admit they're exhausted. So there's a massive perception that what do you call it? gap here, so don't assume that you're okay, just because you quote unquote, feel okay, when you probably would actually feel much better and perform better with more sleep. So if you short yourself on sleep, it's like, doing a minimum effective dose, not No, it's not a minimum minimum effective dose, it's like making minimum payments on your debt, right? Like, the interest is growing, and you're going to owe more and more, and it's going to catch up with you eventually, even if you can kind of skate by in the short term. And how that debt gets repaid, is with your declining health, with your lack of productivity, with low quality of life, all the things we talked about, and of course, Fat Loss and Muscle Building getting harder. So all of those things if you want to be playing the long game with everything, sleep has to be one of the most vital things in your life that you care about and try to improve. So let's talk about how to do that. Right. We know sleep is important you're like Philip shut up about it. You're like 24 minutes in and now I'm just like, you know, scared to death that, you know, if I only get seven hours of sleep, I'm gonna die. Get a diet at 50. All right. So we know it's important for all these things. But let's talk about practical tips. So I've got for you, I was like, should I should I do the typical like, here's 30 things you can do. Now I wanted to skinny the list down to seven, what I think are really important, mostly simple and straightforward actions. Okay, number one is the light exposure. Light is the major environmental cue that sets your circadian rhythm, right, the 24 hour biological clock is our circadian rhythm, it times our sleep or wakefulness, our cortisol, and blue light in particular, because that's what the sun has, right? Unfortunately, it's also what our screens have with our iPads, you know, iPhones, computers, everything have blue light suppresses melatonin, and that's the hormone that makes you sleepy. So if you want to fall asleep faster, you've got to cut out that blue light. As soon as you can, before you go to bed, ideally wants two hours, or and or you could wear blue light blocking glasses, that's what I do. Because I know I'm not going to, I just admit that I'm not going to escape blue light, it's in light bulbs, it's in random phone screens, I do like to watch TV at night, you know, relax, the day is over, I don't have energy for them to go. So turn on Netflix, right? We all do it, it's fine. But now you can wear amber color blue blocking glasses to block it out, I have an orange, I have a smart ball next to my bed that I can adjust to like an orange hue as well. So and the other thing you can do is you can either cover your nightlights or use like orange colored night lights, you can use a sleep mask, you know, you can make sure that you are fully covered. light exposure happens not just through your eyes with your skin as well. And the here's the here's the opposite of that is if you can get some bright light exposure early in the day from the sun, it's going to regulate your circadian rhythm from the front end. And it kind of tells you right now it's morning and set yourself up for better success later on. So that's light, light exposure in general, very, very important. Number two is a consistent sleep schedule, I've become a huge fan of this one. Because even those who do get a little bit less sleep than ideal, let's say you get six and a half hours of sleep every night, which I'll be I'll admit I am prone to do I have so much that I want to get done in the day. And then I want to spend time with my wife at night. And it's kind of like the schedule works. And I want to work out in the morning. You know, could I make a little more drastic changes to get an extra half hour an extra hour, of course. But I also know that there are there are parts of sleep quality that I can improve and one of those is being consistent. So when I go like seven nights in a row with the exact same bedtime and wait time, and only get an average of six and a half hours of sleep actually have a risk of violating my own rule feel pretty good. But I actually feel better, I'll say in relative terms than when I don't have a consistent schedule and get the same amount of sleep. That's what I was gonna say. So in relative terms, it seems to be a benefit. Because erratic bedtimes and wake times like number one with the light, they confuse that clock inside you that biological clock or not biological, the circadian rhythm, and that it makes it harder to fall asleep and wake up because your body is expecting you to go to sleep at this time. And now you're confusing it using a different time. You don't have to be like right on the minute, but within 30 to 60 minute window for waking and sleeping, even on the weekends, your body's gonna love that. Try that out. Okay, even if it's the same amount of sleep, try making sure that it is consistent. Number three is the classic pre bed ritual, the winding down ritual, because we all know sleep isn't just a switch, you can't just jump into bed and fall asleep. Now, you might and maybe that's a sign that you're overly tired to begin with. But there are many things you can do in the hour leading up to bed that can calm you down. I like reading, okay, I have a Kindle that has the orange spectrum light on it. So I can do like a nightlight version of it. I wear orange glasses, and I might even turn on the orange light bulb and just read for like 30 minutes, you know, calms me down gets me to bed, you might stretch, you might do meditation, you might do breath work, you might just journal before bed, you might take a hot shower or bath, right? Hot, not cold, because hot will cause your body to want to release the heat and it will cool you down. The caveat here is to avoid anything stimulating that revs you up or stresses you out. And of course, movies and TV and video games and all that tend to fall in that category. But even reading current reading code as well if it's like super stimulating or some traumatic, you know, or true crime or something like that. So just use your judgment. So that's the what pre bed Ritual number four is optimizing your overall environment. And this is just taking the time to look around your room as you as you listen to this podcast if you're in your house, if you're not do it later, do it later. And just kind of go through a checklist of things that you could you can just tweak that are permanent changes in your room for a while. So it needs to be dark, cool and quiet. Right and buy cool, we mean 65 to 68 degrees. And that doesn't always match your thermostat, right? Because how houses have the way they cool with with the fans and the air conditioner in the zones and all that may not exactly match, but it should, it should feel extremely comfortable and cool enough that you want to put some at least a sheet on if not a cover. And then things like blackout curtains. As some people like white noise machines, I prefer just no noise at all. But it's possibility breathable bedding, they do have fancy mattresses that can change their temperature, you can wear a sleep mask, right? All of those things. It's trying to keep electronics and light out, but trying to make it more like a cave when you sleep. So that's number four. Number five is timing, your strength training, your exercise and your food intake to improve your bedtime and your quality. All right, we know that movement is awesome in general, but also for sleep, whether it's training or some form of cardio walking, it actually is great for sleep, but not too close to bedtime. So we want to avoid like intense workouts three to four hours before bed for you nighttime lifters and nighttime exercisers, it behooves you to experiment with moving that up, you know, you don't have to be a 5am lifter, but moving it up from like six or 7pm. Or if you go after dinner, like that's probably too late for optimal sleep and moving it up to no later than say 4pm is something worth trying to see if it helps. If you are the type that needs to eat closer to bed, if you want to pre bed snack or you're you're eating a lot of calories. Again, the lighter and more digestible it is, as opposed to the big and heavy is going to reduce any disruption to your sleep. And then of course, caffeine is part of this, in that most people would be better off not having caffeine any any later than say one or 2pm in the afternoon. Now, you know, some people are like, well, I my last cup of coffee is three or four, I would really move it way up, say lunchtime, right. So for yourself again, I'm not even going to have it after I'm gonna have it with lunch at the latest and that's it. I'm done with coffee, I'm gonna move to decaf, decaf soda, whatever, and see if that helps your sleep. I think yeah, I think that covers the training and food. Number six is supplementation. It is worth mentioning, because some supplements do have some solid evidence behind them for improving sleep quality. Magnesium is my favorite because most people are deficient in magnesium anyway. All right, look for bioavailable forms of magnesium, and take them. I used to say with dinner, but I actually liked taking them closer to bed, like maybe an hour before bed, just to get the benefit for sleep quality. There are other things that I typically don't even recommend to clients, but you're welcome to research them. Glycine, l theanine, tart cherry juice. And there's probably other things out there. I'm not a huge fan of supplements in general, beyond the basics, you know, filling in the gaps. And I think I think magnesium is a big one. And then always start low and then assess your individual response. I mean, magnesium is pretty well known if you know, if you're female, probably three to 400 milligrams a day, male, probably four to 500 milligrams, and most pills are in that range. Other things like melatonin and CBD oil. Again, I recommend trying to improve everything without going that route, if you can, all right, and then once you've exhausted everything you're like, I still need some other help somehow, you know, you can look into those. Number seven, the last one that I wanted to offer today is, let's say you've gone into bed, you've done all the things. And now your brain is keeping you awake. Right? Okay, raise your hand virtually, if you know what I'm talking about. It's happened to all of us happens to me. Not that often, I would say maybe once or twice a month. But when it does happen, I know that if I just try to fall asleep, it's not going to happen. It might happen to you in the middle of the night, right? You wake up at like three, you're still couple hours away from getting up. And your body's like I gotta go to the bathroom and you go to the bathroom, you get back to bed. And guess what, you can't fall asleep because now your brain turns on and starts to think about things. I don't know if if you relate to this, but I actually will deliberately try to remain in a zombie state. I go, you know, open the toilet, use the bathroom. And I try to I actually deliberately try to not think if that makes any sense to you. And sometimes it works. I tried to keep my mind a blank slate. But anyway, that's not my tip for you. My tip is don't simply lie in bed awake for longer than like 20 minutes, right? You know, don't just toss and turn and get frustrated. Get up. This is fine. Just get up out of bed and do something. Maybe it's a calming activity that gets you sleepy. Maybe it's like cracking open that book again and letting it put you to sleep. Maybe it's writing things down. This helps a lot of people. This has helped me as well. I will not on your phone. Don't get the blue light going right throw those Amber glasses on. Keep the light very low. Don't wake up your spouse or significant other. But just have a notebook next to your bed and just jot down the stuff that's on your mind. You might have some inspiration And you might have some really cool insights. And then you wake up and you say, Oh, I'm actually glad that I couldn't get to sleep because I needed to get this off my mind. Or you say, Who the heck wrote that it's chicken scratch. But either way, it should help you get back to bed. Because you want to have that association between your bed and sleep, not your bed and not saving, okay? Now, some of these might seem basic you might have heard them before, it doesn't mean that they're easy to do I understand. It doesn't mean that they're not important, right? It's usually these unsexy fundamentals that give you the biggest return on investment for your effort. And that's why I included them in here. So just pick one or two. Okay, for you overachievers, if you want to go to pick one or two of these strategies, and implement it this week, and track how your sleep responds, if you wear an aura ring, great look at the data, but just track a few things track when you went to bed when you got up, and how you felt on a scale of one to 10 How well did I sleep, I have sometimes noticed these things overnight. Or I will notice when I'm, I'm getting into to habits that don't serve my sleep, like if I do happen to like, Oh, I gotta see the rest of that movie. Before I go to bed, you know, they just pop on Netflix in the bedroom, which I shouldn't have a TV in the bedroom, right? But I do. So there, I gotta learn how to do that. So when I do that, I know that when I wake up the next day, I'm not going to feel as well rested. And I know that and sometimes I make the choice to do it anyway. But that's a that's a poor trade off for my health. So none of us are perfect. I'm not perfect, either, implemented this week and see how it responds so that you can make that association between the thing and the improvement. And then those are going to snowball over time. Like any any habit. Okay, we covered a lot of ground today. You know, we talked about the science of what happens in your body and in your brain during sleep, how it impacts things like fat loss, building muscles, supporting your health, and then some strategies to upgrade your sleep. So if you take nothing else away from this, I do want you to recognize that sleep is not optional, it is not secondary. It's not like number six or seven on the list, like we often put it, it's when it comes to nutrition and training, it is equivalent. It's like the third leg of that stool, if I were to make a stool with three legs will be nutrition training, sleep. Okay, I know stress is important, but I kind of link stress as a as a downstream effect of some of these other things. And that'll give you a big return on your efforts both in the kitchen and in the gym, which is awesome. And then when it's on point, you're gonna have more energy, you're gonna have motivation, you'll be able to train hard and recover better, and then you can come back stronger the next session, you have an easier time controlling your appetite and cravings, emotional eating anyone, it could be your sleep, you're gonna make better food choices, you're gonna feel more balanced and capable of tackling the daily challenges. In this, this beautiful journey of fitness and health. Like it should be fun and sleep can make it more fun. When you try to skimp on sleep. If you just power through if you're you know, drunk on willpower and caffeine, then you're basically playing the game on on hardmode, or those of you who are into RPGs like I am hardcore mode, right? Except if you screw up, you're not just going to die. Apologies. Every aspect of this is harder, as we've said, right? It's less effective, it's less enjoyable. And that is not sustainable. No one has infinite willpower, you're going to break at some point. So for many of you sleep is the thing, sleep is the missing ingredients, the thing that you're doing, that's killing your gains, and improving it will unlock everything. Okay? Not tomorrow, not next week. Tonight, I want you to get serious about your sleep, commit to giving your body the rest, it needs to repair to restore to come back stronger. And I promise you nothing will be more productive than making that change today. And of course, if you need some more hand holding to build this or any other habit, the doors to which awaits physique University are always open, you get my wonderful, quirky personality there to guide you along the way, as well as many, many other fun activities and ways to learn and grow. And most importantly, you're gonna get a personalized nutrition protocol to maximize fat loss and muscle gain, and sleep of course, and many other things. You're gonna get customized workout programs every month, weekly live calls and workshops to help fast track all of this and get some individualized coaching, and of course, a community of lots of other ambitious folks who all listen to this podcast as well and they're gonna keep you accountable and on track. Go to Whitson weights.com/physique, to learn more and enroll. Again, that's Whitson weights comm slash physique. Thank you, as always, for joining me today and really nerding out about this stuff. This was kind of a fun topic to read research because it's been a while. And I was inspired by one of my clients who asked why all of his efforts, no, here's what he asked. He said, Why is my sleep improved so much? So this is an interesting one. Today we talked about things to do to improve your sleep. He asked Why did his sleep improve so much and we reverse engineered into all of the things that he's done? You know, he's awesome fat. He's improved his habits he he's improved his consistency all the things we talked about. And I'm like, That's why your sleep has improved. So the proof is in the pudding. All right in our next episode 179 the real reasons your scale weight fluctuates, it's not always fat gain. With Louise Digby, you will learn about all the reasons the scale weight fluctuates, the dangers of scale obsession and the importance of non scale victories. We discussed the role of hormones and weight management, the problem with restrictive dieting, and the emotional and psychological side of fat loss and body image, plus lots of tips for sustainable fat loss, please, the best thing you can do to support me right now is to hit follow in your podcast app. And you'll get notified when that episode comes out and support the show. And if you want bonus points, tell somebody else about the podcast. Just tell them hey, there's this awesome podcast, which and wait. It's for people who are skeptical of the fitness industry who want to train smarter not harder. Come on, check it out. As always, stay strong, and I'll talk to you next time here on The wit's end weights podcast.

Philip Pape 41:03

Philip Pape 5/31/24 Philip Pape 5/31/24

Ep 177: How Anatomy Impacts Your Gut, Muscle Mass, Hormones, and Health with Justin Cottle

Philip welcomes Justin Cottle, a former lab director at the Institute of Human Anatomy and a pioneer in using real human cadavers for public education. Justin discusses the digestive system's structure and functions, nutrient absorption, and hormonal effects. He also sheds light on the interplay between anatomy and exercise physiology, muscle hypertrophy, bone density, and neuroplasticity. Justin brings a fresh and intriguing perspective to human anatomy. He skillfully blends practical know-how with science, empowering you to make informed health decisions. His insights challenge and reshape conventional thinking about our bodies and their potential and redefine your understanding of your capabilities.

What are the common misconceptions about digestion and nutrient absorption? How does training sculpt your muscles, and what’s the hidden connection to your anatomy? Are you ready to discover the hidden dietary implications of your unique body variations?

In this episode, Philip (@witsandweights) welcomes Justin Cottle, a former lab director at the Institute of Human Anatomy and a pioneer in using real human cadavers for public education. He is a content creator and writer of the Dissection Room, where he shares his unique perspective on human anatomy, health, and fitness.

Justin discusses the digestive system's structure and functions, nutrient absorption, and hormonal effects. He also sheds light on the interplay between anatomy and exercise physiology, muscle hypertrophy, bone density, and neuroplasticity. Justin brings a fresh and intriguing perspective to human anatomy. He skillfully blends practical know-how with science, empowering you to make informed health decisions. His insights challenge and reshape conventional thinking about our bodies and their potential and redefine your understanding of your capabilities.

Today, you’ll learn all about:

1:56 How Justin’s interest in anatomy developed
6:30 Digestive system structure and functions
10:57 Nutrient absorption and hormonal effects
17:24 Diet recommendation for the average active human
20:26 How to approach hormone issues
23:32 Hype vs factual health information
28:08 Gut microbiome, dietary fibers, and diversifying your diet
32:05 Anatomical variations and dietary implications
40:02 Muscle hypertrophy and training impacts
44:05 Interplay between anatomy and exercise physiology
52:30 Bone density and nutritional support
56:00 Neuroplasticity and exercise
58:40 The fascial system and injury rehab
1:03:02 Where to find Justin
1:03:25 Outro

Episode resources:

Episode summary:

In the realm of health and fitness, understanding the human body is a game-changer. This episode of Wits & Weights, featuring Justin Cottle, former lab director at the Institute of Human Anatomy, is a treasure trove of insights into how our anatomy directly influences our overall health and athletic performance. Through the course of the podcast, Justin guides us through the marvels of the human form, highlighting how every part, from the intricacies of our digestive system to the way our muscles and bones align, contributes to our well-being and physical capabilities.

Justin begins by sharing his unique journey, from working intimately with cadaver research to developing accessible anatomy curricula. His experiences have afforded him a profound appreciation for the human body and an understanding that goes beyond textbooks. He eloquently illustrates the power of anatomy, not just in understanding our health but also in making informed decisions that enhance our daily lives.

The episode takes a particularly deep dive into the complexity of our digestive system. Here, Justin's personal story of battling severe digestive issues brings an immediate and relatable perspective. He articulates the critical roles of various organs and the digestive journey, from ingestion to waste excretion, emphasizing the roles of enzymes and hormones in this process. Listeners gain a comprehensive overview of the importance of the liver and the vital gatekeeping functions it performs.

Moving on, the podcast addresses the conundrum of nutritional science and the impact of our dietary choices. Justin provides a balanced approach to nutrition, advocating for a diet rich in whole foods and diverse fibers to support gut health. He tackles the issue of fad diets and hormonal imbalances, stressing the necessity of personalized nutrition strategies and the importance of proper testing before making dietary changes.

Justin's insights into athletic performance are equally fascinating. He discusses anatomical differences that influence our physical abilities, such as muscle attachment points and motor unit distribution. These differences not only affect how we train but also our response to training. Strength training for bone health, particularly in women, and the groundbreaking findings on fascia's role in enhancing performance are discussed in detail.

Throughout the podcast, Justin offers actionable tips and groundbreaking revelations that can transform your approach to health and fitness. It is an episode packed with valuable information for anyone looking to optimize their physical self-mastery.

The knowledge shared in this podcast is a testament to the intricacies of human anatomy and its application in our everyday lives. Whether you are a health enthusiast, a fitness professional, or simply curious about your body, this episode of Wits and Weights with Justin Cottle provides the tools to understand and appreciate the fascinating world within us.

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Transcript

Justin Cottle 00:00

When you start looking at the body and individual differences, you'd be amazed at how different we are. Or you may be from that generalized plan that we teach to any kind of anatomy one on one type course.

Philip Pape 00:17

Welcome to the wits end weights podcast. I'm your host, Philip pape, and this twice a week podcast is dedicated to helping you achieve physical self mastery by getting stronger. Optimizing your nutrition and upgrading your body composition will uncover science backed strategies for movement, metabolism, muscle and mindset with a skeptical eye on the fitness industry so you can look and feel your absolute best. Let's dive right in Whitson weights community Welcome to another episode of The Whitson weights Podcast. Today, I'm excited to welcome Justin Caudill, former lab director at the Institute of Human Anatomy. He's a pioneer in using real human cadavers to educate the public about the human body. Justin is also a content creator and writer at The Dissection Room, which is a very cool substack and YouTube channel devoted to dissecting life, creativity, lots and lots of different topics that go even well beyond just health and fitness. And the very idea of what it means to be human, I invited Justin to share how understanding our digestive systems anatomy can lead to better nutrient absorption, overall health, and then also how our bodies physically adapt to training. So we're going to try to cover both of those topics. Today, we're going to explore how to use anatomical knowledge for personal health and fitness strategies. So you can optimize all of these things. And I find that Justin has this very unique curious angle on human anatomy is why I wanted to bring them on combines the practical application with the science, to empower you to make informed health decisions and reshape how we think about our bodies and AR capabilities. Justin, it is pretty cool to have you on the show.

Justin Cottle 01:51

Thank you, Philip, that was quite the introduction. And I'm happy to be here. Awesome.

Philip Pape 01:56

Yeah. So let's get into the background of how you came to work with, you know, human anatomy, specifically by way of cadaver research. It's funny when I was coming up with titles for the episode, and actually I was using AI because I do like to do that to brainstorm. And it's like, all this stuff about corpses and beyond the grave. And I'm like, No, we're not gonna go all McCobb here. But I do want to understand how we can link, you know, that kind of information to practical decisions that we make. Tell us how that started to click for you. Like, where did you make that connection? And then how do you start? Did you start to communicate that in an understandable way?

Justin Cottle 02:30

No. So anatomy is, I'm fond of saying that anatomy is the baseline science, it's this. I mean, there's a reason why no matter what kind of health program you're taking, anatomy in some capacity is at its core. And that was the same for me when I started out, but I fell in love with anatomy. Soon as I took my very first anatomy class, it was really unintentional. I never really like I wasn't growing up thinking, Oh, I'm going to work with no body donors and cadavers. That was never a thought. It just kind of ended up being that way. When I took my first anatomy class, and realizing the power of human anatomy, not just in obviously explaining everything within health and fitness, but also just the mindset, I liken it a lot to almost like a watchmaker, where you have to when you know, the parts that everything is built of it is really easy to understand all these other things that are branching off of it. And I realized that very early on and just fell head over heels for anatomy. And one thing led to another and I ended up working in a cadaver lab. And that in itself is a completely different set. That's hard to say this like properly because a lot of people who take anatomy classes don't work in cadaver labs, you may have a cadaver lab, but to actually work in one is a different thing. And so when all of a sudden, I found myself having that opportunity to work with the actual body donors, that just fueled the passion even more, because then all of a sudden, it's not just looking at a textbook looking at an anatomy Atlas, it's holding the organs, it's performing the dissections yourself. And it's just an exciting thing that just out of nowhere, you know, I found myself having been doing it for 10 years. Again, all of it completely unintentional, but extremely exciting. nonetheless.

Philip Pape 04:13

I love your analogy of the watchmaker and really understanding what's underneath each layer. Because I have that same sense of if I don't get where it's coming from or how the connections are made. I don't just want to trust what you're telling me. You know, when I break it apart. A couple of things come to mind is versus art, like Leonardo da Vinci is well known for using human cadavers to understand anatomy and then translate that to how humans move and are portrayed in their strength and movement on the page. And I'm sure that you've gotten into some of that. I also just a few minutes ago, both my daughters, we homeschool our daughters, and they outline themselves on a big piece of paper and they're actually they drew a bunch of the major bones, and they're gonna like add layers to that. And I thought I'm like I told him about you that I was gonna be talking to you in a few minute. It's, and just I'm trying to understand again from deep down where all this comes from, because there's a lot of misinformation out there. There's a lot of experts telling you what to do. And here you are a guy that's, you know, coming from the science of it all. So, yeah, it's pretty cool. I don't have a question there just and I think it's, I just think it resonates. That

Justin Cottle 05:18

is really cool. I do want to say, you know, my hat's off to you, for homeschooling your children that is so cool. And it's something I'm really interested in myself is actually developing anatomy programs and curricula for home schoolers. So we may have to talk about that also in in different different time, because that is something I'm very interested in these days, but hats off to you.

Philip Pape 05:39

Cool, absolutely. And I think of like my wife, I'm gonna give her most of the credit for the day to day because she, you know, she actually runs our school and teaches them. But one of the things with homeschoolers, and this is relevant is they, at least there's a misconception that you have to be an expert, to teach anything like you have to be an expert teacher with a certification to do this. And it's just not the case. I think, if you have the passion and want to learn something, the best thing for kids is to learn how to learn. It's not to be dumped data, dumped information, it's to learn how to learn. And I see my kids now, you know, getting beyond my wife and me our knowledge, they're surpassing that at the age of 10 to 12, in many cases, and they're able to do that. So we try to do that on this podcast, too, is just like educate people and teach them how to find the information. So you have a great source of that. And for people, we're going to plug his stuff a few times here, but the Dissection Room, YouTube channel. Alright, cool, man. So one of the topics we wanted to talk about, because you said you had a personal connection to this was gut health, or I should say, digestive health, nutrient absorption. And hopefully we can segue from that into what that means for how we eat and how it helps us perform. But just just tell us, I guess, maybe we start with anatomy, or your story, we can go either way, like, start with the anatomy of the digestive system and the function and like how this is all relevant to us. Why do we care about this? Yeah,

Justin Cottle 06:58

so I think I can real quickly tell the story of why it's so relevant to me is in that in 2018, I found myself randomly having a small bowel obstruction, which is where my small intestine, which is the nutrient absorbing aspect of the GI tract, just essentially got blocked. And this normally happens to people in their 60s 70s, who have history of abdominal surgeries. And I didn't have any of that. And I ended up I got very close to actually passing away, but into kidney failure. And this all happened within just a couple days, I was 30 years old, really healthy, I'm you know, I'm ex military, like I take care of my body. And this just hit me. And I obviously ended up being okay. But what it did is it just fueled, which I was already obviously knowledgeable on the digestive system, but then all of a sudden, it became more relatable, it became, you know, important to me and personal. And so it just kind of has started this one has never really stopped this passionate, you know, investigation into the nuances of the digestive system. And so with that, you know, when we're talking about the digestive system, it's really you have to understand that it's the first thing to develop inside of the body. So before you have a brain before you have a heart, the actual developing embryo has a gut to know that's what anatomist actually call it. And so imagine eights in an imagination is just a tunneling inwards, where all the sudden you look at this tadpole looking creature, and this tunnel forms from the mouth, which really isn't the mouth at this point, all the way down towards the rectum. And everything about your body builds around that. And so it literally it's the axis of development. And when you think about it, you know, it's so that means, you know, your mouth, your lips, is just one hollow tube, if you could actually stick your hand through your mouth, and coat down the entire digestive tract, you're inside your body, but technically, you're outside your body, because it's one hollow tube from point A to point B. But everything happens there. We're talking chemical and mechanical digestion, nutrient absorption, excretion through waste. It's amazing, as someone who has had an actual, like real severe digestive issue, it's incredible to understand just how important it is, if things go wrong with your digestive system, you know, immediately. It's not, I'm not trying to, you know, turn this into like a contest of which is worse, but it's like with cancers or other types of dysfunctions and diseases that can be more subtle, but not digestive issues, digestive issues, they hit you and they hit you fast. And you know, very quickly that something is wrong. And I think that's something a lot of people understand intuitively, especially with poor diet, because it doesn't have to be a small bowel obstruction for you to understand that something is wrong with it, but I mean, just finish it up real quick right here, you know, so if we're talking the straight up anatomy, you know, you have your mouth, your oral cavity that goes down to your aside esophagus that goes down to your stomach, that then transitions into the small intestine. So the stomach is what kind of turns it turns it into like this soup called chyme. It's just a nutrient soup and then releases it into your small intestines, those are about 30 feet long, depending it could be anywhere, it could be as low as 15 feet. And that's where all the nutrients are absorbed. And then anything that isn't absorbed drops into the large intestine. And that's what's also people will call the colon, there is a little bit of a difference, but it's not that important. And then that's where you just kind of absorb waters and salts, and then that will obviously then be dedicated out as waste. So it starts in the mouth and ends at the anus. Yeah, I

Philip Pape 10:38

think that's awesome. I love this stuff, I can geek out on this stuff, I love the idea of the tube being both inside and outside the body. And you've already talked about the different processes at different stages, the chyme. And you know, I guess there's bile at some, in fact, saliva at the beginning, right, and then all the different fluids again, thinking about my daughter's talking about this stuff recently. And it's like, we don't talk about it at the dinner table. But we'll talk about how do like enzymes and hormones come into all of that facilitation of the breakdown. Because then I imagine that's gonna lead us to talking about how we utilize nutrients from what we eat, and then utilize those because we want to segue into that. But just real quickly, is there anything else we need to understand mechanistically hormones or enzymes or anything?

Justin Cottle 11:17

Well, so for when it comes to the enzyme, specifically, the enzymes, it's just something that is basically causing an action to occur on a molecule. So you have like proteases lipases. So anything that ends with ace is an enzyme, so a protease would break down proteins, a lipase would break down lipids, so you're going to have some enzymes that are actually inserted into the digestive tract at the stomach. But most of them happen in the very well, we would say, an anatomy proximal end of the small intestine, so that's the very beginning. So as soon as your stomach releases the contents into small intestine, that's where the liver, and that's where the pancreas start just dropping enzymes into the actual small intestine. And for one, it helps neutralize the stomach acidity. This is something that a lot of people think about stomach acid, hydrochloric acid, it could eat your small intestines, it could literally digest it, so you have to have a way to neutralize it. So as soon as your stomach empties into the small intestine, it's met with a neutralizing agent, and it neutralizes the stomach acidity. But you're also going to have enzymes that are being inserted into there to help break down carbs, lipids, and proteins. And that will continue all the way down into the large intestine. But at the same time, you know, once they get absorbed, and then they go to the liver, the liver is what actually I like to think of it almost like a bouncer at a club, where if you're on the list, it lets you through if you're not on the list, it's a hardcore club, and instead, it would destroy you. So easiest way I can describe this to people is like alcohol. The real easy example, when alcohol gets to the liver, the liver has various enzymes that will actually neutralize it, but you can overwhelm it, and then that can go into the bloodstream. And then obviously, that can cause repercussions elsewhere. point here is hormones don't really become affected until something passes the liver, and gets into the bloodstream. And then that's when it goes global. And that's where you're going to get many different hormonal responses based on the specific nutrient and just things in the composition of the blood. Cool.

Philip Pape 13:21

All right, so then that clarifies maybe two subtopics from this that we can cover one is the utilization of nutrients, you mentioned, macros, but even micros, and then how that then downstream effects, performance, building muscle, whatever I mean, the people, the listener of the show is very much into body composition and strength training and lifting and eating protein and all that fun stuff, carbs, and whatever. So the effects of those. And then since you mentioned hormones, we can talk about the downstream effects on things like your thyroid, which is a hot topic these days, especially for Peri and postmenopausal women worried about thyroid conditions, and like do I eat all the right foods with the right nutrients to do that? So yeah, let's start with the nutrient absorption piece of it. Sure.

Justin Cottle 14:02

So to be clear, when you're talking about nutrient absorption, what specifically do you want to talk macros

Philip Pape 14:07

and micros, let's

Justin Cottle 14:08

start there. Okay, so it really just kind of depends on I guess you can put it this way. So once everything gets boiled down into your stomach, in your stomach will rip it apart. And then that's where you have this that kind of is a macro soup, essentially. But once it gets into the small intestine, there are these little appendages called villi and villi. This is really wild have even like smaller little micro villi on them, and that's where all the capillaries are. And the capillaries are what are going to absorb all the nutrients and you want to get that typically as small as you possibly can because if something is too big, then it can't be absorbed. And so that's what the job is of the hydrochloric acid in the stomach as well as the enzymes coming from the liver, the gallbladder and the pancreas. So you'll have this micro and macro nutrients soup that is flowing through and then it gets up sorbed into the bloodstream. Once it gets into the bloodstream and goes to the liver, it really depends on the nutrient itself. It depends on a whole cascade of signals the pancreas, for instance, the pancreas has blood flowing through it, that is actually sampling your blood sugar levels. So it's sitting there going, okay, so I have this much sugar, so we need to either drop in insulin and reduce that or glucagon and increase that. And that's obviously then going to have an impact on all of the adipocytes, those, those are the cells that store lipids and your fat. And that is going to have an effect, you're also going to have an effect on inside of the muscle tissue as well, because how much sugar you have is going to be signaling to the muscle itself. Oh, do we need to store this in the form of glycogen, so then you can stuff that more full. So it really just kind of depends on this specific area, you almost to really understand how a micro or macro nutrient is going to be affecting an area, you almost have to say, this area or that area, this area. But then you have to start thinking about things like individual circumstances and genetics, individual health, all of those things. But when it comes down to micronutrients, micronutrients are more so like tools, while macronutrients are kind of like energy sources and building blocks. And so like lipids will be typically used to help improve the health of the cell. Actually, here's an easy way to say it, I'm very fond of this, this is one of my favorite sayings, you as a human being are essentially proteins wrapped in fat, and fueled with sugar. That's essentially what you are. And so then what your body has to do is figure out which cells need the protein, which cells need the lipids and which need the sugar. And then obviously, there's a whole various amount of metabolic pathways. So it just it is really that nuanced, though, you almost have to be like, Okay, how does it affect this area? How does it affect that area? And you can even get as nuanced as and what time did you wake up? You know, you know, how long have you been in a heavily fasted state? How, you know, not only were you working out, you know, was it resistance training? Or were you doing cardio, there's so many things that can literally impact just how these micro and macro molecules shuttle around the body and the way they actually go into the cells. Yeah,

Philip Pape 17:10

and this is where I can get into trouble as a nutrition coach, because like, we want to give people simple practical things to consider for them, without overwhelming them with the why. But I'm so fascinated by the why. And some people want to understand why all this stuff happened. So if you were to step back a level and say, for the average human who is active, right, which again, we're talking about folks who are active, maybe their strength training, is just a balanced approach and paying attention to how you feel the majority of it here, or is there some more knobs that you tend to play with when you recommend kind of what and how to eat in terms of your actual diet? It's

Justin Cottle 17:45

a such a good question. It's an important question too, because, you know, I am not the type of person who likes to feed into hype. But at the same time, sometimes hype is there for a reason. And there are certain things and there's certain signals that we should be listening to, at the same time, another saying that I'm very fond of saying, and I can't remember who the physicist was, but there was this theoretical physicist who said, I would never touch nutrition with a 10 foot pole, because it's too complicated. And I think that really kind of sums everything up. Because Nutritional Sciences, the compasses, it is so difficult to really figure out what's going on. You know, a lot of times people think you can just like, put in some kind of micro molecule, and look at it in the bloodstream and figure out exactly how a cell utilizes it. And unfortunately, that's just not the way it is. And so, a lot of times we are in the dark, we can look at things from a more just, you know, circumstantial study type perspective, where it's just like, oh, well, we gave some people some bread, and this is what happened, you know, it's more of an observational study. And I know we want better answers than that. But unfortunately, sometimes we just can't get those really nuanced answers that we really want with nutritional science, that's changing, that's getting better. And that's really exciting. But what I typically tell people is, it's best to start from a very generalized sense, and then start figuring out what works and what's not working for you. And that is something where someone like yourself really comes in handy because then you can start to titrate that right, you can start to go okay, well, we're gonna turn this knob here, we're going to turn that knob there. But the knobs that I turn, for me that I think just make most sense, is to get rid of as much Ultra processed foods as you possibly can to try and eat as many Whole Foods as you possibly can. You know, for me, I don't drink alcohol, I don't drink coffee, I try to like I try not have any caffeine if possible. That's not to say that you can't it's just, I personally find myself that works better for me, you know, so it's, I try to eat as much fiber as I possibly can. And I try to eat diverse sources of fiber, because diverse sources of fiber are going to be fantastic for your microbiome. But at the same time, it's like my main focus, if you could say would just be Whole Foods, drinking lots of water, getting plenty asleep, you know, trying to get good at Exercise and take care of my body. They're really general things that are really uncontroversial. But I also think it's that a lot of people just don't do.

Philip Pape 20:07

That's the best way to do it. You just put it there. It's not controversial, it's almost boring. It's not sexy, is what you got to do. And people aren't doing it. Oftentimes, they're looking for something to optimize when really they just need the big blocks. So yeah, the whole foods, hydration, limiting toxins of different kinds, and then diversity. So that leads me to you mentioned the microbiome, let's answer the hormone question, right? Where someone says, Well, I have hypothyroidism, let's say, and I want to address it naturally isn't just a matter of eating more. Oysters and Brazil nuts, you know, are like specific foods that have specific nutrient. And it may be I don't know, how do you approach the topic of hormones in general, and linking that to micro nutrition, as well as the anatomy of the digestive system?

Justin Cottle 20:54

It is so hard to have that conversation without someone doing the proper bloodwork, and actually figuring out what their levels are, you know, so many people in myself included with a lot of things. This is not to demonize anybody, because at the same time, you know, how available is it, I mean, it's gotten a lot more available, there's a lot of really fantastic testing that people can do home testing kits, for example. At the same time, though, when you're doing these types of things, in reality, to have a good understanding of how your hormones are really being affected, you don't just take one test, you need to take a series of tests, and then you need to be able to compare that data. And that's where things just kind of get difficult, if not outright impractical for people. So it's hard to say like, you know, will this work? Or won't this work, but I think generally speaking, yes, you know, oysters is going to be good for you. I mean, like, I love eating oysters, I love having, you know, just getting as much DHA and you know, like you want to take care of yourself and get the specific fats, proteins and healthy carbs that you are supposed to be getting. And there are different sources that may be more optimized. I don't know if that's not the right word, but just might be better for you, generally speaking,

Philip Pape 21:59

more nutrient dense, let's say more bang for your buck. Yeah,

Justin Cottle 22:02

that's the way to put it. That's the way to put it the same time, though, it's really hard to say it really is hard to say. And I know that's one of those no one likes that person being that person who's like, well, it depends.

Philip Pape 22:12

It depends. That's always the answer, though. But with

Justin Cottle 22:15

nutrition, it really does depend. And I think like you mentioned, people are always looking for that. Just give it to me now give it to me straight, what do I got to do? And I understand that I'm very sympathetic with it. But unfortunately, you don't know what you need to do unless you have data. And I'm not saying you need to have some, you know, become like, have like these analytics charts, you're not they don't necessarily need to have you be so robustly into this. But at the same time, if you're just flying in the dark, it's really going to be hit or miss. And so at the end of the day, I think I always encourage people, if they are curious about their hormones, and how their body is responding, they need to get tests done. And then from there, you can start to figure out what may need to happen. Cool.

Philip Pape 22:57

Yeah, that makes sense. And it does get confusing with tests because it's blood work saliva, urine, what do I get? Who do I go to? Because now you've got insurance and things involved, it doesn't always cover all of that. Got doctors that are sometimes clueless about it. And then there's functional medicine individuals. So you're right, it is a lot of that. It's funny, because I have I have some, like questionnaires that I can use with clients where I try to tease out some symptoms, at least to get started, because that's often a good starting point. And some of these questionnaires are like 30 questions because it is so complex with is your thyroid, is it testosterone, what is it? So that's good advice. And then you men you did allude to hype, and I want to get back to that. If you had to pick one thing that is actual hype, and one thing that's hyped, but real, that comes to mind that that's like often talked about in the industry, what would they be?

Justin Cottle 23:47

That is such a good question. So I mean, when it comes to hype, the thing that just naturally or that is doesn't live up to the hype, I guess I should say, the thing that naturally comes to mind are going to be fad diets. I think that's a general answer. But I mean, like, for instance, the carnivore diet, you know, and then here's the interesting thing, especially if we go back to keto, this is me. You know, I guess this is kind of like a humble brag, but I remember being into keto, almost 15 years ago, no one knew what keto was. And I was really interested in keto because of there's a really interesting researcher named DOM D'Agostino, and he DOM is the one who actually worked with the Navy SEALs, because the US government was like, hey, the ketogenic diet actually helps minimize seizures. And so they wanted to actually helped the, you know, the Special Operators not have seizures when they were using rebreathers underwater as they were actually going after the enemy. The whole point here is Dom D'Agostino. I was listening to him and really diving into the research for ketogenic diet, you know, back in like 2010, and no one knew what it was and I was really interested but as soon as it became a fad, everything went off the rails. Were all the sudden it's like, there's actually really interesting stuff about keto, but it gets lost so easily. And I find myself when I'm having a conversation about the ketogenic diet, I almost become anti keto, because I'm having to fight so many things, even though I'm actually a proponent of it under certain circumstances. Same with carnivore diet elimination diet, specifically, when people are just kind of like urging in mass. It's like that may work for certain in certain circumstances, but it just, I think, generally speaking, is almost never a long term solution for anybody in any circumstance. And so I think that's a real easy answer. But I think it's an important answer, because it's so easy for people to just jump onto these fad diets, even if they are healthy people, you know, it's not like you need to be losing 3040 50 pounds. It's just more so like, me naturally. The question, you know, if I want if I'm lifting too, maybe I just go carnivore, you know. And at the same time, I think people who've been lifting for long enough understand the importance of carbs and understand why that's probably not a good idea. But you still see those types of ideas out in the masses. So that would be the easy answer. But I still think it's an important one. And then one that lives up to the height is the microbiome. Easily, the microbiome is probably one of my favorite things to talk about something I could talk about for hours. And not just in the digestive system that just all over the body and its importance, but the importance of fiber and diverse sets of fiber, fermentable, fiber, non fermentable fiber, just understanding what these things are, but how beneficial they can be for our health. And a real easy example I can give is theirs. This is speculative. But I would not be surprised if many of the metabolic diseases and disorders that we see are really just a problem or an artifact of a bad microbiome, in the sense that people are just been eating such bland foods, that what's happened is there's no diversity. There's no resiliency in their gut and their bacteria are suffering. And it's just having far reaching repercussions. So the importance of fiber, I think is something that I'm really excited to see people getting on the microbiome bandwagon. At the same time, I will say this, and I'll be quick. I do think people have gone overboard with it. When it comes to prebiotic supplements, probiotic supplements, I think it's easy to start to just turn that into the fat. And that's what we've been seeing. But I still think at its core, it's pretty solid.

Philip Pape 27:16

Those are two really solid answers. I mean, the fad diets for sure we talk about all the time of you know, at the end of the day, it's what's sustainable for you. But at the same time, even if quote unquote fad diet is sustainable. From a practical standpoint, are you still missing out in other areas. And that's where I tell people to really take the whole picture into account. Like if you're doing carnivore and all this stuff is great, but something else is not quite there. That could be a red flag of okay, you're missing some plants, maybe you should have broccoli. And speaking of broccoli, like when I hear influencers, say broccoli is now bad for you, because it has goitrogens and it's going to inhibit iodine absorption. And you're like, Oh, really, and people are freaked out and like Well, only if you eat like, you know, gobs and gobs of raw broccoli every single day forever, and have inflamed thyroid at the same time or whatever. So that's a good segue because we are talking about digestive health. You talked about diverse sources of fiber, probably having enough fiber and having enough diversity of food in general. I've also heard, you know, things we can't control as much but are important our early stage in our life, like from infancy and the type of birth and breastfeeding. And like having pets and all of that. What would you say when it comes to gut health and the microbiome are the top few things that people have the most control over as adults. And maybe you already mentioned it with the fiber, but like a couple actions people should take or assess in their lives now

Justin Cottle 28:38

that would help that. So easy things that people can do is when I say diversity, I really mean that in a very simple sense. So for instance, if you can break down fiber into two, there's different ways you can break down fiber, right soluble, non soluble, but my preferred way to break it down is fermentable. And non fermentable. fermentable. Fiber is the type of fiber that many species of bacteria in your gut will break down and then obviously they ferment and you produce gas. So the main sources of fermentable fibers that I like to bring people's attention to are going to be insulin, and pectin. Insulin, you find that like in garlic, onions, pectin, a lot of times you'll find that in the skins of fruit. So like, you know, pears, apples. So when you're talking about diversity, you have different kinds of life. So just picture yourself in the grocery store. You see like a gala apple, you see a Fuji apple, right, you see a red delicious apple, those are three different sources of pectin. And that can actually impact your microbiome in subtle ways, but still meaningful ways. Meaning, try to get around or at least I tried to get around 20 different sources of fermentable fiber in my diet are wheat. And that can be as simple as just going to the produce section. And you know, you're looking at like yellow squash versus zucchini. Well, those that's going to be different. Yes, there's They'll squash, butternut squash, and trying to get the skins trying to get the fiber content in there. And you're helping your microbiome because you're giving diverse food sources to those microbiota. So those species, and what that does is it builds up resiliency, because you have to think about it, it's almost like there's a turf war inside of your colon, where you have millions of different species, and then millions of those species. So there's hundreds of millions, like, I mean, literally, maybe 500 million species inside, not species, 500 million bacteria inside of your colon, there's only so much space, if you just eat the same food source over and over, what you're doing is you're only giving food to the species that consume that. And what happens is the ones that don't start to die away, and then the other ones start to take their space. And so even if you start eating more diverse food sources, you may have already killed the bacteria that could have broken it down and benefited from it. And that's why for me, it's like, I think just having a diverse diet is early starting as early as possible, right, we're talking, you know, this is where the importance of your fruits and your veggies, giving it to your three and four year olds, right, just getting them to understand the benefits giving them any, you know, obviously, you can cook them, you don't have to give them raw broccoli, that's no one's gonna like that. But finding ways to really turn that into a habit, and just simple ways of going to the grocery store and just going, Hey, I haven't had that Apple, you know, I haven't had I haven't had that type of onion. You try those different sources. And if all else fails, you can always go the supplement route. But I think it's a real easy thing that people can do.

Philip Pape 31:39

That is awesome. I haven't heard it put that way. And I'm like already thinking, you know, I gotta go generate a list of all these foods separated by those types, you probably have something like that already, or did a video on it, I'm sure. But still, that can be a super helpful resource for folks. Yeah, I didn't even think about like having different types of the same fruit, just to get the different pectin and the skins and speaking of pectin, and all types of fiber, we don't, we often don't break down things. beyond what we see on the nutrition label, right? We see macros and micros, and even not all the micros listen on the label. And there's all these other compounds, these beneficial compounds in the various aspects of the foods, antioxidants, whatever that you get from the diversity. So I think that's a really good message.

32:21

My name is Tony Romo strength lifter in my 40s. Thank you to Phil in his Watson weights community for helping me learn more about nutrition and how to implement better ideas into my strength training. Phil has a very, very good understanding of macros, and chemical compounds and hormones and all that and he's continuously learning. That's what I like about Phil, he's got a great sense of humor, he's very relaxed, very easy to talk to. And one of the greatest things about Phil, in my view is that he practices what he preaches, he also works out with barbells, he trains heavy, not as heavy as me, but he trains heavy. So if you talk with him about getting in better shape, eating better, he's probably going to give you some good advice. And I would strongly recommend you talk with him. And we'll help you out. Thanks.

Philip Pape 33:05

So before we move to the second topic, because man, this could be like a two hour podcast, if at the rate we're going seriously, what about individual differences in anatomy? Or even like pathological conditions that affect some of what we're talking about? Is that worth getting? bothered about? worth discussing? Or is it more of a like, when you have a problem, you deal with it?

Justin Cottle 33:27

You know, so I think like, the way I think about it, is there is the intellectual side of it. And then there's the practical realist side of it, where, intellectually I think it's a very fascinating conversation. But practically, there's not much you can really do about it. In terms of say, like, let's talk about just the individual anatomy aspect. The digestive system can vary, like I said, the small intestine can be anywhere between 15 and 30 feet long. Now, if you were to look at the data, you might be like, huh, I think Shaquille O'Neal probably would have a longer, small intestine, right? He's bigger. But if you look at the data, it doesn't actually always correlate a height, meaning a taller individual might have a smaller length and small intestine and is shorter individual might have a longer small intestine, why that makes a difference. If you have a longer small intestine, there's more time for nutrients to be absorbed. You get more nutrition from the food you eat. If you have a smaller small intestine, you get less nutrition from it. And that can actually impact your diet. The thing is, how do you figure out how long your small intestine is? Right? There's not really many tests for you to do this, right? You go talk to your GI doc and just be like, Hey, I would like to measure my small intestine and look, I mean, they're not really going to be able to do that for you. And so that's where all the sudden it goes into that practical realm of I don't know what to do with it. Obviously, there's going to be you know, digestive issues, you know, you have celiac disease, you have Crohn's disease, you have immune diseases. There's so there's that is more pressing. To call, obviously, you can kind of tackle that. But I think what I personally think is the best response for most diseases of the gastrointestinal tract is still to tackle diet right at the very beginning. And you find it doesn't fix it. I'm not here to say it fixes things, but it does alleviate a lot of problems. And so it's hard to get, you have to take it on an individual basis. But there are differences in people's anatomy, there are differences that people can measure in some aspects. But usually, there's not much you can do about it. In a lot of ways, it's just it's hard, it's complicated you, you would need to have a considerable amount of money to be able to do a considerable amount of tests in order to figure out the nuances of your own body, or you could let someone distract you. And that's probably not going to work for you either.

Philip Pape 35:47

It's interesting, what comes to mind for me is when you talked about, it generally starts with diet, which totally agree with that philosophy, like let's do things naturally as best as possible, and then see what's left that we might have to deal with. So I have an esophageal condition called eosinophilic, esophagitis, I had it since I was young, where it made it very tough to swallow, because I have these little nodules in my esophagus, eosinophils that migrate there, there's some protein that causes them to migrate there. And before there was a medication for it, there's an asthma medication that they labeled, they tested, it actually worked on this, and I take it and it works wonders. But before that was the case, I had two options, either take some sort of like beta blocker or something like that, or eliminate dairy, gluten and like for other foods, like almost every food I enjoy, right? So what are your thoughts on like, because that's where it trade, there could be a trade off, I could have done an elimination diet and found it was just one thing. And then but I'd rather just inject myself and enjoy all those foods. And maybe that's not the right approach. What are your thoughts on those kinds of things.

Justin Cottle 36:49

So this is why I'm so passionate about the microbiome, is because when researchers first found the hodza, the hodza, were are one of the last remaining hunter gatherers on the planet there in Tanzania, when they first stumbled upon them, the children's bellies were bloated. And that is a huge signifier of malnutrition. Well, they weren't malnutritioned, they actually were fermenting their guts were so big, they were just so full of gas. And researchers have learned. And this has been on a steady decline, because the hodza are starting to become integrated into modern society. The hodza are the healthiest people on the planet. You know, obviously, they die of blood borne diseases like malaria. But you have hodza hunters who can literally take rock Holan from an antelope and chew on it. And they can scoop out the contents of an antelope stomach, and put it in their mouth and chew on that and spit it out, they'll be covered in blood and feces, and then they will come back and hold their children and the children don't get sick. It's like it's hard, because again, you don't want to feed into the hype of this. But when you look at it, their diversity of their microbiome, the average Westerner or American citizen, has around three to 500 species of bacteria. One species could have hundreds of millions of individuals in it. But my point here is you only have about three to 500. The hodza have over 1000 different species of bacteria over double. And it's also all over their bodies. And so what we're finding is that the microbiome is not important in pretty much every single aspect of your life that you can imagine, including resiliency, and resistance to infections, and different things of that nature. And so when we say like, it all starts with diet, it really does all likely start with diet. And figuring out how to optimize your health around that is one of the best things or most important things we can be doing. But that's hard. That's a really hard problem to solve. I don't want to make it seem like oh, yeah, we can easily figure out all the bacteria and everything. But when people have, you know, like autoimmune diseases like you have, when people have these types of things, those are real, serious problems. And so to figure out what to do around that, you know, obviously, it's very individual, but at the same time, diet, starting the diet is still likely the best place to begin, if it doesn't work. And if we do do need to go to immunotherapies, or an asthma medication in your instance. That's awesome. That's cool. That's where we've done cool science and we figured out another solution to a problem. But at the same time, it's like it should start with that. For sure.

Philip Pape 39:30

Okay, cool. Yeah, no, I always fascinated by that kind of stuff. Because now we have biologics and all sorts of crazy ways to solve some of these things. But I also understand people have practicality and sustainability and like, what they want to live with and versus the indulgences thing, even things like alcohol, you know, I'm always having conversations with clients who rationalize the heck out of it, but still, at the end of the day, they're like, I choose to imbibe a few times a week because I'm, there's for whatever reason that I get enjoyment out of it, and I'm going to do it so It's always interesting from a practical standpoint. All right, you want to talk about training? Sure. Yeah. So we got a lot of lifters in our community. We talked about adaptation, you know, muscular adaptations to training. And I think obviously, the anatomy is huge here when we talk about the physical, the musculoskeletal system. So get out of the gut. Now over to the other parts of the body, I think the gut may still come in here. Where do we even start here? So, strength and hypertrophy are goals for a lot of individuals, we understand a lot of what it takes to go from A to B, even though I know the research is still out on all the mechanisms underneath. So why don't we start with hypertrophy, because that's the most talked about one, and the influence of training variables and muscle adaptation for that in the context of anatomy. And I'm just curious to hear kind of your unique take beyond what what we hear every day in the fitness industry. So

Justin Cottle 40:53

the way I like to approach strength versus hypertrophy from an anatomical perspective, is you really have to think about it from the body's perspective. So the body has no idea. So think about it, like a baby is born, has no idea what environment is going to be there, what demands are going to be placed on it. And so, obviously, genetics are played a massive role, right? You look at the body form, say, of an individual from Kenya, that's going to be different than say, you know, someone from Serbia, obviously, there's going to be differences there. But at the same time, there is still this blank slate, even with muscle physiology. And so the thing I like to bring to a lot of people's attention are satellite cells. satellite cells, are a type of stem cell that exist on the periphery of muscle cells of skeletal muscle cells. And they're basically they're waiting for a sign or a physical signal, a stress signal to tell them what to be and how to be. And there's a little bit, they can even switch fiber types, right? If we're talking about fast twitch versus slow twitch, there's little nuances with that. But at the end of the day, it really kind of just depends on the demands of your environment, and what that's going to do to the actual cells waiting. And what's cool, is once they say, like, if we're going to be hypertrophic, right, when you become hypertrophic, you need multiple nuclei, to actually fuel that cell is the cell gets so big, that you don't need all these nuclei to be like, Oh, I gotta regulate this, I gotta regulate that I gotta regulate this. So what'll happen is, as you become hypertrophic, you take satellite cells, merge them into pre existing skeletal muscle cells, it grows bigger, and now you have more nuclei. But then let's say you get injured, you get injured, and you need to rest, obviously, your hypertrophy goes down, but the the nuclei stay. And when the nuclei stay, that makes it actually easier to bounce back and rebound. And you see this all the time and resistance training is that people like, oh, it was harder for me to get the gains in the beginning, it's easier to get them again, you know, after time, and that's because you actually retained the nuclei. And that likely plays a role in helping you become hypertrophic faster. Every single time I dive deep into the literature around hypertrophy and strength, and just like the nuances, there's still so much to learn it, there is still so much to learn there in a lot of times, it's hard for me to even say like, I feel comfortable saying this versus that, because there's so much that we just don't know at that granular level. Fortunately, we know enough at the macro level. It's just like, oh, no, like, you know, like, these are the sets these are the reps are going to do this is the weights. We know enough that the practical sense that I think it helps, but at the physiological micro sense, there's still a ton of mystery as to what's actually going on.

Philip Pape 43:43

Yeah, really cool. All right. So there's definitely some things I want to get into here. You know, one thing is there is a high variability of individual response, we've seen that even when in a lab setting, there are trainers telling you exactly how to train and to be intense and execute properly, right? Because sometimes you could just say it's poor form, poor execution and not enough intensity. But even the training variables may have to change from one person to another, like which things you progress and what rep ranges you work in. And so there's a lot of variability. So that's a lot of trial and error. But what causes that variability in response when it comes to the anatomy and to the kind of the recovery in the adaptation process? And it's a big question.

Justin Cottle 44:24

It's a great question. So this is, here's a good way to think about it. When I teach anatomy in the classroom, or if anyone looks at a video about anatomy, you are looking at the average of averages, right? So it's like, there's certain things that we can pretty much guarantee are going to be pretty consistent, right? Your forearms, you have five fingers on two hands, right? There's certain things that are just pretty consistent, but when you start zooming in and zooming in and zooming in, you're gonna see a whole lot of variability. So real easy example I like to give, there are 16 anatomically correct positions for your gallbladder. So, right now the gallbladder we teach sits underneath the liver on the right side, those 16 subtle variations are just like they're kind of just moving a little bit. It's not like it's huge. It's not like your gallbladder is in your foot. But the point I'm trying to make here is, when you start looking at the body and individual differences, you'd be amazed at how different we are. Or you may be from that generalized plan that we teach to any kind of anatomy, one on one type course. And so when it comes to muscle physiology, one thing you have to think about is the different amount of neurons the different amount of synapses, right? So like motor units, for example, right, so a motor unit is one neuron. And how many muscle cells it's attached to, there are averages, right, and it also depends on the muscle group. So for instance, I think like in gastroc, so gastrocnemius and your calves, one neuron, I think goes to about 1600, different muscle cells, muscle fibers, so that means if that one neuron fires, all 1600 of gastroc fibers fire at the same time. That's the average, right? So if I were to say, Look at, look at your calves, we measure it to my calves, mine might be much smaller, my motor unit would be smaller, yours might be larger. And that can actually make a difference in terms of power. Right. So for instance, gastroc, you don't need to have a too small because gastroc just really needs to push off the ground. That's all it really needs to be able to do. But that means though, for certain people, especially what's interesting, when you look at the differences in elite athletes, what I love to tell people is it's like, what's the difference between first and second place at the Olympics? The 10th of a second, right? You know, they do the same training, they put all this kind of stuff. So then you know, for a fact, then why again, we look say, Michael Phelps, why is he so different? We've looked and done tests on Michael Phelps, and we have on many of these elite athletes, and you see that they genetically, they have just different amounts of motor units, they have different amounts of fast twitch versus slow twitch, there's all these variabilities. And we don't know exactly why they always distribute the way they do. Obviously, genetics plays a role. Sometimes the environment can even shift that in certain circumstances. But to say like, what is it that's what's going on? Why is this person different than this person, it's really just nature experimenting. Because it's like as, as nature's just kind of throwing out there's little variabilities in the DNA. And if that's successful, then they're likely to pass on their genes. And then that just keeps on going and going and going. And so it's really just nature experimenting, I know, it's again, that's not a really satisfying answer as to what makes these individual differences. But it's really fascinating to see, especially someone who's looked in the body when so when I perform a dissection, you will see so many differences. You're just like, Whoa, that lung looks weird. You know what I mean? That in a respectful sense, but you're like it, you'd be blown away with how different everybody is, from that generalized blueprint. And so when it comes to athletics and fitness, in the microscale, those differences can really start to show up. I

Philip Pape 48:13

love this stuff. I mean, that what you're describing is like the anatomy is the microcosm of the bigger differences we all see between humans, like we know are different. And you're right. It's like evolution constantly happening, even though we don't realize that's the case. And partly because humans all spread their genes nowadays, right? Like we can all survive given modern technology. I want to recap a few things just for the listener, and I find fascinating. You talked about how they're, you know, multiple nuclei to fuel muscle cell, and then the drawers in the satellite cells, so it can grow bigger, and then they stay there, which explains why if you're D trained, and then years later, you get back into it. And I've seen this with clients who are D train, I'm like, wow, they're super responsive, when they come back, it's a great reason to, like start today building muscle, because it's gonna benefit you for the long run no matter what age you are. Also, the fact that the individual responses are so different with motor units and fasten sojitz fibers, for example, that would explain some of the differences with like power and vertical jump capability with athletes. We also have different limb lanes, different proportions that affect your movement patterns, like with your squat and stuff like that. So it just the big message is you everyone's different, and you've got to find what works for you. You've got to experiment and kind of use the general guidance that we talked about, but then immediately collect data that shows you whether that guidance is kind of on the norm or is on the outliers of that bell curve.

Justin Cottle 49:34

And if sorry, if I don't mean to interrupt you, but you actually reminded me of one more thing that I think your listeners really enjoy. One of my favorite things to do when I would show people this in the lab is so again, if we think about that generalized blueprint, there's inferior teaching skeletal muscle anatomy, we always talk about origins versus insertion. So basically, it's just what parts of the bones to the muscles attached to. So when I'm teaching it in the classroom, I always teach it the same, but it's not Always the same in reality. And so I want you to think about this from a mechanical standpoint, if a muscle attaches on a bone, maybe even a centimeter different from where it should I say should in quotation marks are the averages? What kind of effect is that going to have on leverage? So you can see this, like one of my, one of my favorite examples is latissimus dorsi. So latissimus dorsi is the broad muscle on your back? Well, for most of the human population, it doesn't touch the scapula, it goes right underneath the inferior angle, but for some people, it goes on top. And it actually covers the inferior angle of the scapula. So then what you can do is start thinking, well, what would that do to the scapula, the scapula would then be more strongly anchored to your torso. What would that mean? Well, for certain activities, you're going to be limited, right? So maybe rock climbing would not be your best, because then you're going to have some kind of limited range of motion. But at the same time, you're going to be more stable. So maybe gymnastics might actually be better for someone like that. What's fascinating is, and again, there's not really easy tests for this to figure out where your muscle differences or abnormalities are, but you're likely amazing and perfectly fit for some activity, you're great at, you're generally good at all these different ones, but who knows, you might be the world's best ping pong player and just never know it. Like who knows your muscles might literally be formed for one specific activity, and you could be an elite athlete in that if you were able to train from that from an early age, it's just a really interesting thing to think about that muscles, literally, if they attach to slightly differently, you want to talk about the effect on the vertical. I mean, that can be profound if gastroc and soleus are attached to the calcaneus in a subtly different way. And then you pack in some different fast twitch fibers, all of a sudden, you can see, you know, brawny James, who just recently had like a 40 foot, well enough 40 4040 inch 40 and a half inch vertical, it's amazing, you can start to see subtleties really show up. Yeah,

Philip Pape 52:01

we see that as well with both bodybuilding and powerlifting and powerlifting. With the leverages, you know, you might have a much better squat and deadlift, or vice versa, because of some of those insertions or you see that with the bench press as well. And then in bodybuilding, it affects your symmetry and your look in oftentimes, like the peak of your bicep and things like that, whether it's closer or farther away. So not that you can do anything about it. But it's good to know what they are. And then maybe try a bunch of different sports and a bunch of different things to see if all of a sudden you're you're really good at this. Let's talk about bone health, too, because it often gets lost in the discussion when we talk about training and strength. I've worked with a lot of women, and obviously osteopenia and osteoporosis are big concerns. And, you know, for me, the top thing I recommend is strength training, right, because of the actual changes to your bones structure that get induced. So tell us about that. What have you seen, like maybe in cadavers, we see a different intensity from a lifetime of lifting versus being sedentary or things like that.

Justin Cottle 52:55

So unfortunately, with the how the body donor industry works is that if you are basically under the age of 55, and you pass away, you are likely to have your organs harvested. Even if you were signed up to donate your body, because you're young enough, your organs are still likely healthy enough that they can save a life. So what that means is for body donors, we really don't see them until they're at the end of their life. So we're talking 6070 8090, even 100 years old, it's obviously you're looking at individuals who are far past optimal health. There's only been a few instances where you'll see a younger individual, it's really special circumstances, I didn't get to see it. But at the local university, University of Utah, I'm in Utah right now, a few years ago, they did have a bodybuilder I didn't get to see the individual. And it's like, I really wish I could go seen that. But the stories are heard, were incredible to look at the because we're all so used to seeing a 75 year old, you know, who had cancer, their body is just riddled in atrophy and disease. So it's hard to actually be able to tell, in fact, it's not that I say you couldn't, but we also would don't get a medical history on the individual. So I don't know what's going on. And there's this level of guesswork with it. But at the end of the day, you can still tell them people are more active than not. Right. So you can definitely tell when people are just outright sedentary. You can see it because the bones will literally shape to whatever form so if they're hunched over, right, if they're sitting in a wheelchair or a lazy boy, or if they're laying in bed, you can see those impacts on the joints, or how it impacts the joints. And you can see when people obviously just their posture, like especially like if we make a not to be too graphic, but if we make a cut right down the middle of the body, it's called a sagittal cut. What you can do is you can see the inside of the entire vertebral column. And when you see that you can see postural shifts postural changes, but you can also see the density of what we call spongy bone and how thick the little arches are inside of that and so the thicker they are. This is almost always true. The thicker they are the healthier the bone there are some differences. But the point I'm trying to make here is I can often tell like, oh, this person was 80. Yes, they died of cancer, but they were actually pretty active. This other individual, you can see just the thinning of the bone. And you can tell, okay, they were likely on active and you can also see their bones are just literally shaped differently based on how they were sitting. So, unfortunately, you can't look at someone and say, Oh, they lifted weights, or anything like that, just at that age. It doesn't work as I wish. But unfortunately, it's more of a guessing game at that point. Yeah,

Philip Pape 55:28

yes, we have to settle for DEXA scans and stuff of living people, we do see that I was just curious. But the logic holds, then if you see the bones getting more brittle and spongy due to lack of activity, and simply walking and holding up your normal frame that does load your musculoskeletal system, regardless, keeps them from doing that, it goes to reason that adding more load would make them more dense and strong, which, you know, we know again, we know from living people. I was just curious on the cadaver side. Okay, so that addresses activity. What about neurological adaptations to training? Is there any is there an aspect of anatomy, we're able to see that given that it's in the brain, but I assume it's also tied up with the nervous system in some physical way?

Justin Cottle 56:09

I don't know. So there's nothing you can really see with the naked eye. If you're looking at say, like slides, if you're looking at some kind of like micrograph or something, you're going to be able to see just how the nervous system does adapt. And the nervous system adapts in some really cool ways. I think a lot of people are understanding of the plasticity of the brain and how neurons can actually move around there. But there's also some plasticity at the actual neuromuscular junction, there's some plasticity, as works with the what's called the fascial system. So and how that is all innervated. But it's hard to, you can't really see that with the naked eye. And so for me, in my experience, I've worked in what are called gross anatomy labs. So gross anatomy lab is just what you see with the naked eye. So we were never using like a microscope or anything along those lines. So I don't have a lot of experience myself in really analyzing the plasticity at a practical level. But I can tell you intellectually, and what I've read in the research is that you do see that, obviously, you know, if you are prioritizing a specific workout a specific lifts, I mean, like for instance, say like you're a rower, you are a competitive rower, say in college or something, well, obviously, your nervous system is going to adapt not just in your actual brain, but at the level of the muscles right at the joints, you're gonna see plasticity around the actual neurons inside the joints. This is something I don't think a lot of people understand. Because they're called like joint kinesthetic receptors, you have receptors that monitor the positions of the joints, those can become more finely attuned. And so they can actually send feedback to the brain quicker and more efficiently, so that you can get better response time and reactionary time. So those types of things we know about, we see that in the literature, it's something you can train for, to some aspect, but it's not as simple as like, Oh, I'm just going to do this one activity, and then I'll become superhuman at it. Obviously, there's limitations to it. But at the same time, the body definitely does adapt at that neuro muscular level.

Philip Pape 58:08

That's amazing man. This is this is one of the coolest interviews I've ever had just because you're coming with like unique things that people don't think a lot about. And I just learned something I didn't even know there was those kinds of neurons inside the joints. You said they were joint kinesthetic receptors. And that kind of makes sense. We use the terms muscle memory and all of these things. And I'm assuming that's what we're talking about when we develop a pattern, and we repeat that pattern. And then it gets reinforced to the point where it's almost automatic. And you're right, like the reaction time picks up as a result. And the fascial system as well. How does that come into play the fascial system? I'm familiar with that somewhat with like massage, for example, an injury rehab.

Justin Cottle 58:45

So fascia is one of the most misunderstood layers of the body. And so the historically speaking from an anatomist perspective, fascia was the thing you removed to get to what's interesting. So for people to understand this, you were to remove the skin. Before you get to the muscle, there's this connective tissue layer that goes on top of the muscles. That's what we call the fascia. So fascia since it's been largely ignored. There has not been a lot of research and even today, it's controversial. What you'll see is people in the massage realm, right so chiropractic massage, physical therapy even will get in there. A lot of them are real big fans of fascia. But then if you look at say, like classical anatomist who are more academic anatomist, they're still kind of like it's not that big of a deal. In terms of like, you can definitely have fascial issues. But in terms of like boosting performance dramatically, a lot of people are skeptical. And I've looked at the data on all sides on all sides, and it's hard to really make up my own mind on where I sit with it. But the thing is, fascia is very richly innervated. So it's not just this connective tissue layer. There are plenty of neurons in there and what they're doing is they're sending feedback. To the brain about the position of muscles, the overall tightness because you have to think about like this, if you say like on your arm, so the arm, fascia wraps the muscles of your arm and creates what's called a compartment, and that compartment is pressurized, if you actually cut the fascia that reduces the efficiency of the muscles inside of that compartment by as much as 15%. So, what that also means is, let's say like, well, what impact end does hypertrophy have on the fascia? These are these are active and open questions that people are looking at to see how that can be reflected inside of performance. And we just unfortunately, don't have a lot of answers around it. Because it's been ignored for so long. The data we do have. And I say this with respect comes from people that are highly biased, right? Like the fascial research comes from the fascial Research Society or things like that, where not to say that it's outright wrong, but at the same time, it's like we need more data before we can really understand what's going on. So it's hard to really talk about fascia outside of the hype. Just understand there's a lot of active research going into fascia, because there does look to be some exciting stuff.

Philip Pape 1:01:11

Okay, yeah, I mentioned the massage therapist, because I tried to get one every month. And she's like, Yeah, you know, she'll mention it. Again. I've heard it within the physical therapy realm. But it is pretty cool that there are obvious mechanistic and physical interactions that we can prove with, like you said, if you cut it or something, and so then what's the reverse on that in terms of how we can impact it? Very cool questions, lots of excellent questions. I guess. The last thing here, is there anything you wish I had asked you related to personalizing your training and nutrition around anatomy?

Justin Cottle 1:01:44

You know, that's a really good question. I don't know. I think we got around, I thought we did pretty well today. I don't know that there's anything that just jumps to my mind. I think what I would like to tell people is that anatomy is oftentimes a boring science. And I say that as someone who loves it, because anatomy is a science of just classification. It's just like, here's, you know, this is your, you know, this is your flexor carpi radialis, you know, like it attaches here to, that's a pretty boring thing, but the power that comes from it, especially for those who are really interested in their body. You can't oversell it. It's an amazing science that I encourage everyone to look into. And there's plenty of fantastic resources online for it. But in terms of like, questions that I think we covered pretty much everything I generally speaking everything that I would have liked to, yeah,

Philip Pape 1:02:33

no, it's awesome. I didn't know some of the things we uncovered. It's gonna get me to want to look more into anatomy in my practice, and for the podcast, as well. And I'll probably hit you up on like some of these really good resources besides you, which you're an amazing resource, of course, for folks, because I think we take what's the word, we take too much of an anecdotal approach sometimes. And some of these, these big questions are being answered out there. And we just need to start merging the different disciplines, even more powerfully. So where Justin, can people learn more about you and your work? Yeah, so

Justin Cottle 1:03:05

like you mentioned, the Dissection Room is what I'm doing. There's a YouTube channel called the Dissection Room. You can find me on Instagram. I think my instagram handle is real Justin Caudill. Just you can send me DMS and everything going there. substack, the Dissection Room?

Philip Pape 1:03:19

Those are the places to find me these days. Cool. Yeah. And guys, check out his YouTube channel because it's super highly produced for one. So kudos on like the production quality. But the topics are just they're Legion. I mean, they're across the board. There's, if you're just into geeking out on anything, whether it's technology or philosophy or whatever, he's probably got it covered in there. Very long library of really cool stuff, and especially a lot in the health realm as well because of the anatomy angle. Thanks again, man. Justin, this has been a lot of fun. We learned a lot. The listener learned a lot and it was a pleasure having you on. Thanks, Bill.

Justin Cottle 1:03:52

Appreciate it.

Philip Pape 1:03:53

Philip Pape 5/28/24 Philip Pape 5/28/24

Ep 176: Heal Your Thyroid to Boost Your Metabolism (Even with Hashimoto's or Hyper/Hypothyroidism)

Do you know how your thyroid turbocharges your metabolism? What can throw your thyroid off balance, and how can you reclaim control? Are you ready to supercharge your thyroid with easy-to-adopt lifestyle shifts?

In this solo episode, Philip (@witsandweights) explores the intricate world of thyroid health and its impact on metabolism. He discusses the thyroid’s functions and the symptoms of hypothyroidism and hyperthyroidism and then identifies the root causes and triggers of thyroid dysfunction, providing a comprehensive understanding of this critical gland.

Philip also shares practical, evidence-based strategies for supporting thyroid health, from lifestyle and nutrition adjustments to supplementation. Whether you’re battling hypothyroidism, Hashimoto’s, or hyperthyroidism, this episode will help move you in the direction of healing and optimizing your thyroid from the inside out.

It's important to remember that the information shared in this episode is for educational purposes only and should NOT be considered medical advice. If you suspect an underlying medical or hormonal issue, it's always best to consult your doctor or medical practitioner.

Tune in to discover how to boost your metabolism and get the body you deserve for your efforts. Don’t let your thyroid sabotage your health and fat-loss efforts any longer!

Today, you’ll learn all about:

4:00 What is the thyroid and its functions
6:54 Symptoms of hypothyroidism and hyperthyroidism
9:37 Identifying the root causes and triggers of thyroid dysfunction
11:36 Lifestyle and nutrition adjustments to support your thyroid
22:07 Supplements for thyroid support
25:56 Outro

Episode resources:

Get your FREE Heal Your Thyroid guide
Watch this FREE video on how to setup MacroFactor and try MacroFactor FREE with my code WITSANDWEIGHTS

Episode summary:

When it comes to maintaining overall health, few glands play as crucial a role as the thyroid. This small, butterfly-shaped gland nestled in the neck region is pivotal in regulating a host of metabolic processes in the body. Unfortunately, thyroid dysfunctions such as hypothyroidism, Hashimoto's disease, and hyperthyroidism are not uncommon, affecting millions globally. The symptoms of these conditions can range from fatigue and weight gain to mood swings and hormonal imbalances, particularly impacting women during peri- and postmenopause. The good news is that through targeted nutrition and lifestyle changes, individuals can effectively manage, and even improve, their thyroid function.

Nutrition holds the key to managing thyroid health. A diet rich in anti-inflammatory foods can alleviate the strain on the thyroid. Essential nutrients like iodine and selenium are the building blocks of thyroid hormones and must be included in the diet through foods like seafood, eggs, and nuts. Moreover, gut health is inextricably linked to thyroid function. A diverse diet with an array of fibrous foods and fermented products can support a healthy gut microbiome, which, in turn, supports thyroid health. In addition to diet, the importance of food sensitivities cannot be overstated. Identifying and eliminating foods that trigger negative responses can be instrumental in managing thyroid-related symptoms.

However, the journey to thyroid vitality extends beyond dietary choices. Lifestyle factors such as fasting, sleep, stress management, and balanced exercise regimens also exert a significant influence on thyroid function. While fasting can be a powerful tool for reshaping dietary habits and caloric intake, it must be personalized to avoid exacerbating thyroid issues. Chronic stress and sleep deprivation are particularly detrimental to thyroid health. They can disrupt the delicate balance of hormone production and should be mitigated through stress-reducing practices and prioritizing sleep.

In cases where lifestyle and diet adjustments may not be enough, supplementation under professional guidance can address specific nutrient deficiencies. Supplements should never be used as a catch-all solution but rather as a means to target particular areas of need as identified by health assessments. Remember, any significant changes to your health regimen should always be discussed with a healthcare provider.

To conclude, the podcast episode provides a comprehensive guide for those seeking to enhance their thyroid health through a holistic approach. By embracing a nutritious diet, mindful lifestyle choices, and when necessary, strategic supplementation, individuals can work towards a more energized and balanced life. With this expert knowledge and the actionable insights shared in the episode, listeners are well-equipped to empower their endocrine systems and unlock a new level of vitality.

Have you followed the podcast?

Get notified of new episodes. Use your favorite podcast platform or one of the buttons below. Then hit “Subscribe” or “Follow” and you’re good to go!

Transcript

Philip Pape 00:00

Is your thyroid sabotaging your health and fat loss efforts? If you're dealing with stubborn pounds, relentless fatigue and brain fog that just won't quit. Your thyroid might be the hidden culprit. The good news is you have the power to take control of your thyroid health, and finally feel like yourself again. Today I'm giving you the ultimate evidence based blueprint to nourish your thyroid, balance your hormones and reclaim that vitality. Whether you're battling hypothyroidism, Hashimotos or hyperthyroidism. This episode will give you the tools you need to heal from the inside out and naturally heal and optimize your thyroid, boost your metabolism and get the body you deserve for your efforts. Welcome to the wit's end weights podcast. I'm your host, Philip pape, and this twice a week podcast is dedicated to helping you achieve physical self mastery by getting stronger. Optimizing your nutrition and upgrading your body composition will uncover science backed strategies for movement, metabolism, muscle and mindset with a skeptical eye on the fitness industry

Philip Pape 01:02

so you can look and feel your absolute best. Let's dive right in Whitson weights community Welcome to another solo episode of The Whitson weights podcast in our last episode 175. The big is beautiful movement, obesity and heart health with Dr. Tiffany DiPietro. We discuss some of the myths surrounding heart disease like the idea that it's only a man's disease, or you must have symptoms to have a problem. Tiffany shared her best practices for nutrition and exercise to maintain a healthy heart and effective ways to prevent cardiovascular issues. And we stepped into the minefield of the biggest beautiful movement by asking the question Can big also be healthy. Today for episode 176 Heal your thyroid to boost your metabolism. Even with Hashimotos or hyper or hypothyroidism. We'll discover and explore what your thyroid actually does break down the different types of thyroid dysfunction and dive into the root causes behind thyroid issues. And of course, I'll give you concrete evidence based strategies to support your thyroid through nutrition, lifestyle and targeted supplementation with the right approach, you can definitely get your thyroid functioning at its best, so you can get back to feeling like yourself again. But before we dive into the details, I want to remind you that this information is for educational purposes only and not medical advice. Always consult with your doctor or medical practitioner if you suspect there is an underlying medical or hormonal issue. Now most of this episode was delivered as a live training, where I took questions from the audience and integrated them into the episode, I decided to give away one of the bonuses that I gave to those who attended to thank you you as a podcast listener for following the show. And that bonus is a free heal your thyroid guide that you can download using the link in my show notes. Again, if you want to download your FREE heal your thyroid guide that goes with this episode, go to the episode resources in my show notes. All right, let's get into today's topic, kill your thyroid to boost your metabolism, even with Hashimotos or hyper hypothyroidism. All right, we are talking about healing your thyroid naturally because we know how important the thyroid is for your metabolism and many other things. We also know that many people women especially especially in Peri and post menopause tend to face more thyroid issues or dysfunctions or things that present themselves as thyroid issues. And I think it's really important to understand true dysfunction from symptoms and things that we could actually do something about. So in today's training, we're going to explore what your thyroid actually does, we're gonna break down the different types of thyroid dysfunction, dive into the root causes behind the thyroid issues. And then I'm gonna give you some concrete evidence based strategies to support your thyroid, through nutrition, lifestyle and targeted supplementation. So if you have the right approach, you can definitely get your thyroid functioning at its best and get back to feeling like yourself. Again, let's jump into it. Starting with what the thyroid is, okay, the thyroid gland is pretty small, but it's very critical to everything. It is a butterfly shaped gland in your neck that produces hormones that regulate metabolism, energy levels, body temperature, and some other functions. So when your thyroid is under functioning, it can then lead to lots of other frustrating symptoms that we're going to talk about in a bit. But things like fatigue, brain fog, what many of you are concerned about which is either weight gain or frustrating inability to lose weight and a lot more symptoms than that? And maybe you're struggling with some of these issues yourself or you're suspecting that your thyroid could be the culprit. And the reality is that the thyroid disorders are incredibly common, whether they are the root cause or they are caused by the lifestyle choices, especially things like hypothyroidism and Hashimotos, which is the auto immune In a form of hypothyroidism, but so many people go undiagnosed, so many people struggle to manage their symptoms, even with medication. I've worked with many a client who has had one of these conditions. And once we start to fix or change just a few key areas of their behaviors, their lifestyle, oftentimes they, the issues either get resolved, or they're able to significantly reduce any sort of treatment or medications for them. So that's what I want to do today, I want to power you with the information and action steps to optimize your thyroid health, whether it is a diagnosed condition, or you just want to give your thyroid some love. So what does the thyroid actually do? Well, it produces two hormones, you've probably heard of these T four, and T three, I'm going to try to pronounce them it's thyroxin. That's T four and T three is tri iodothyronine. So try to say that three times fast. T four is the inactive form has to be converted to T three, which is the active form to do its job. So you've probably heard of T four to T three, or Yeah, T four to T three conversion. So these hormones, think of them like the master controllers of your metabolism. They regulate how fast or slow your cells use energy. And then that affects all the other things downstream like your weight, your body temperature, your heart rate, your digestion, your mood, your brain function, that's why it can cause so many different symptoms. So when your thyroid is under functioning, right, we call that sluggish thyroid, we call it hypo thyroidism, the extreme autoimmune form of that being Hashimotos. Which by the way, I'm not going to get into too much into Hashimotos in detail, but typically Hashimotos from a from a medical standpoint means you have an inflamed, physically inflamed thyroid, but there can be a spectrum of symptoms and bloodwork and things that tell you that you have Hashimotos. So common symptoms of hypothyroidism. If you have a decent amount of the symptoms working together, right, or one or more of the symptoms, you may have an issue with your thyroid, but I don't want anybody to kind of freak out that any of these in and of themselves means you have a sluggish thyroid, but things like fatigue and sluggishness, brain fog, difficulty concentrating the big one weight gain or difficulty losing weight, you feel like even when you go into a diet or in a calorie deficit, the weight just stops going down eat despite cutting, cutting, cutting calories in tolerance to cold, dry skin and hair, hair loss, constipation, muscle aches, weakness, depressed mood, a whole bunch of things. And for those of you watching the video actually have a long list here. This is what I use, sometimes with clients just to see if symptomatically thyroid might be something to look at, which would then lead to other things like blood, blood and lab work. So those are the symptoms of hypothyroidism, hyperthyroidism, that's your overactive thyroid has a shorter list of symptoms, but still important. Anxiety, rapid heartbeat, weight loss, and diarrhea would be some of those most of what we're talking to today, generally is with Hypo thyroidism. And so when we talk about the dysfunction of the thyroid, and what causes it, the most common cause is Hashimotos. It's an autoimmune condition, where the immune system mistakenly attacks the thyroid gland, and then you get some inflammation as well. And over time, this can cause the thyroid to under function. Other potential causes are nutrient deficiencies, potentially low iodine, low selenium, we'll get into some of those specifically, certain medications. Of course, pregnancy and postpartum changes can cause temporary dysfunction in the thyroid, and then if you're getting treatment for hyperthyroidism, and it's it may be because of the dosage it can cause, you know, the opposite reaction to occur. So no matter what's causing it, what we want to focus on here, what I focus on with with clients all the time is, how can we give our thyroid some love in a natural way, so that we kind of take out all of the factors of lifestyle, and then whatever's left may lead you to go down other routes of investigation, working with a medical practitioner or functional medical practitioner or, or what have you. So the three are, number one, reducing inflammation and immune dysfunction. Number two is providing the raw materials to produce thyroid hormones. And then number three is supporting conversion of T four to active T three, and none of these are going to be complicated. The idea here is that the lifestyle changes we talk about will support these, you don't have to worry about necessarily getting super specific on any one of these per se. Let's break down the first one, which is identifying and addressing your personal root causes or triggers of dysfunction because this is very individualized. And everyone's different things that cause potential thyroid dysfunction or underperformance are different, but going down the list food sensitivities, so if you are in such a sensitive or intolerant to anything really, you know, gluten, dairy, soy, those tend to be the big culprits. But there are women who have thyroid dysfunction that can eat gluten just fine, right? So don't assume that these are quote unquote, inflammatory, it's really going to depend on your individual response, nutrient deficiencies, the Big Four iodine, selenium, zinc, and iron. But there are others on the list, such as vitamin D, that could come into play gut issues. And this is mainly with people who have made, they may not have a very diverse diet, they may not have much fiber, they may not have many plants in their diet, things like that. All the same things that lead to poor micro microbiome diversity in the first place, which everybody should be concerned about. Anyway, given how important the gut is. But again, I don't want to go down the controversial routes like leaky gut and stuff like that, we're just talking about supporting your digestive system in a healthy way. Chronic stress, of course, is a culprit behind lots of issues when we talk about health and fitness, environmental toxins, again, I'm not going to get into too much detail on that. But there's, there's plenty of evidence out there that certain exposure to things both in the food and the environment can definitely have an impact on your endocrine system and your hormones and your various glands. Certain medications, of course, again, I'm not going to get into details on those and then pregnancy and post partum changes to actually pinpoint root causes is very difficult, right. And so we focus on the activities that support your thyroid, if you want to go that next step, and you work with a coach, again, or a doctor or functional practitioner, those are different ways to get down to the root cause. All right, continuing on here. So now we get to the fun stuff. What do we what can we do about it? That's, that's what I'm here to talk about. What can we do with your nutrition and lifestyle to start, you know, supporting that thyroid, some of the most powerful dietary changes are going to be removing any food that's just not working for you. And the word inflammatory can get can get dicey. It can get dicey when we use language, I'm using it in the context of you eat it, and you have some sort of negative response in terms of biofeedback or thyroid function or your metabolic rate or something. And you know, from tracking, and looking at the before, and after that it has some negative effects that you don't like. And it might help you to exclude that food. We're not talking about restrictive dieting, we're talking about individualizing your diet, and still having everything else in there that you know you enjoy, and that supports you. So these could include gluten, dairy, soy sugar, whatever. My suggestion is, either eliminate one that you suspect to be the issue for a few weeks and track and document how you feel and your biofeedback and everything else. And and see if that indeed was a culprit. The other slightly more extreme approach is do an elimination diet, right? Cut out a whole list of things, which is very difficult, I will admit it's very difficult, it's not fun. And you do that for again, like a month or a few weeks, and then you start reintroducing one at a time to see if one thing just causes your symptoms to get worse. And again, we're talking about symptoms, all the symptoms we talked about earlier if symptoms go away, because you remove a food, that's a good sign.

Philip Pape 13:13

Hey, this is Philip and I hope you're enjoying this episode of Whitson weights. I started with some weights to help ambitious individuals in their 30s 40s and beyond, who want to build muscle lose fat and finally look like they lift. I noticed that when people transform their physique, they not only look and feel better, but they also experienced incredible changes in their health, confidence and overall quality of life. If you're listening to this podcast, I assume you want the same thing to build your ultimate physique and unlock your full potential whether you're just starting out or looking to take your progress to the next level. That's why I created wit's end weights physique University, a semi private group coaching experience designed to help you achieve your best physique ever, with a personalized done for you nutrition plan, custom designed courses, new workout programs each month, live coaching calls, and the supportive community, you'll have access to everything you need to succeed. If you're ready to shatter your plateaus and transform your body and life, head over to Whitson weights.com/physique or click the link in the show notes to enroll today. Again, that's Whitson weights.com/physique. I can't wait to welcome you to the community and help you become the strongest leanest and healthiest version of yourself. Now back to the show.

Philip Pape 14:34

The second thing is eating nutrient dense Whole Foods, right? We always talk about 8020 At least 80% of your foods are nutrient dense foods. But for thyroid specifically there are certain nutrients we want to just be aware of. And we can take two approaches here. One approach is you just have a very diverse diet full of animal and plant products or if you're not, you know if you're not an omnivore plant products but It's diverse. And by diverse I mean not just different types of foods, but oftentimes even multiple types of the same food, for example, multiple types of apples. So you get different pectin compounds and the different skins of the apple, you know, kind of eating like we would have naturally back in the day when you had a lot more diversity in your diet. So, if we specifically dial in on nutrients that come up with thyroid, the first one is Iodine, that would include things like dairy products and eggs. Also fish especially white fish, cod, tuna, haddock, things like that. And seaweed. So I recently spoke to somebody who who mentioned there's a like a powdered seaweed you can get, but of course there's different forms of seaweed you can purchase in the store but if for convenience, there is a powdered form you can like sprinkle on food, so kelp Nori, will kami things like that. Selenium, we're talking Brazil nuts. I mean, just a couple of Brazil nuts a day is probably sufficient. Seafood like shrimp sardines, salmon, you know, meat, beef, turkey, chicken has selenium and whole grains as well. Brown rice and oats have selenium. So there are a lot of foods that have selenium, zinc, oysters is the big one people talk about but I know a lot of people don't regularly consume oysters, but they are high in zinc, shellfish, like crab and lobster. Various types of meat have zinc, pumpkin seeds are high in zinc, and then legumes, like chickpeas, lentils and beans. You gotta get the theme here. Let's let's have diversity. Let's Let's eat a lot of different things, especially plants in there. And then iron, you got red meat, of course poultry and fish and a lot of iron, especially sardines and mackerel, spinach, legumes like lentils, and beans. Okay, so I just gave you a whole bunch of ideas for food. And by the way, I have the guide that you're gonna get for this. I believe I include all those food sources in there. But if not, I'm going to take a note to beef that up. Pun intended. Alright, number three, prioritizing your gut health. So I mentioned before having diverse sources of fiber, that's really where I want you to focus. Yeah, bone broth. And all these other things are nice, but I think having like fermented foods, a variety of fruits and vegetables, different types of the same, for example, not just yellow squash, but also zucchini, not just red delicious apples, but you know, Granny Smith, and all of whatever types there are, you know, go and have fun in the grocery store and find things you've never had before buy them and throw them in your food, really have a diverse source, have adequate amount of fiber, and that can go a long way toward helping with your gut health and digestion. All right, protein is a huge one for everyone. I mean, this would have this on every list. Basically, if you know you're building muscle, you're trying to support your hormones, you're trying to stabilize your blood sugar, you're trying to feel for whatever the reason improve your body composition. Protein tends to help in all those realms. And we're aiming for about point seven to one gram per pound of body weight, you know, the one gram per pound is on the high end, if you can at least get to that point seven years pretty good shape most of the time. So that's what I would aim for. And then finally, don't fear carbs, right? complex carbs are great, but but really any carbs, but complex carbs from whole foods like sweet potatoes, fruit, rice, they tend to support your hormones. I mean, there's some evidence that links these foods to T four to T three conversion. Again, I don't put too much stock into that because now we're trying to get so biohacking to that level. I think just including all of these things on a regular basis is a practical way to do this. I want to talk about intermittent fasting, because I know there's a lot of curiosity about it. There's a lot of controversy. The truth is, there's a mixed bag when it comes to intermittent fasting. There are experts who make claims like it reduces inflammation improves insulin sensitivity, stimulates cellular cleanup, and all of these could benefit the thyroid, but the evidence is mixed on whether you can actually tease out these results from intermittent fasting and prolong fasting can be a stressor, right? So we really have to make our choices when it comes to fasting work for us. Not necessarily because it's going to help the thyroid because it could backfire. And actually, you know, cause more issues than it helps. You know, fasting can disrupt things your HPA access your cortisol, all that those things, maybe right, and maybe interfere with the conversion of T four to T three. So I just would recommend avoiding aggressive fasting protocols if you have a thyroid condition and just eating in a way that works for you. And if you want to experiment with fasting, go right ahead. I'm a big fan of experimentation. Now, the reality of fasting is well I already mentioned as a stressor it could help with, you know, if you're in a fat loss phase and calories are tight or low. It can help you tighten that feeding window so it's more practical to get into calories with fewer meals. It could help with your lifestyle. If you have an schedule that lines up better that way. Just pay attention to your body signals right. Pay attention to fatigue due to cold sensitivity, hair loss, like any, any of the symptoms of thyroid that come into that either go up or down depending on what actions you're taking. And as always, you know, once you've, once you've done these things, and you still have symptoms, you can always go down the route of working with, with a doctor or medical practitioner. Yeah, so my basic, my basic thing with intermittent fasting is it depends depends on if works for you don't buy into the hype or the claims. There's always truth somewhere in the middle. All right, the next thing is lifestyle. Again, you're not going to be surprised, but a lot of the lifestyle factors are the same lifestyle factors that anybody would want to incorporate for a healthy lifestyle, you know, getting enough sleep managing your stress, regular exercise movement training, you know, high cortisol from chronic stress can wreak havoc across the board, including with t 43. Conversion with your thyroid, as it does help down regulate many hormones when you don't get enough sleep or you have too much stress. So aim for that seven or nine hours of sleep focused on high quality, know that a lack of sleep has been shown to cause additional storage in the belly, right? visceral fat storage has been shown to worsen body composition outcomes, meaning if you ate the same amount of calories, a group that was sleep deprived might gain more fat and lose some muscle relative to a group that has sufficient sleep. Safe, super powerful, stress, reducing stress with practices that work for you, whether it's breathing, meditation, yoga, being in nature, doing stuff you enjoy. And then for movement, of course, a mix of strength training and low intensity cardio, like walking tends to be ideal. Many of my clients who have had hormonal issues, they're just doing too much, they are doing too much cardio chronic cardio, right? It's excessive, and it was stressing your body out. So you've got a lot going on, you're in your life, most likely, when you're now trying to squeeze every ounce of time out for some form of exercise that can be a stressor. So lifting weights three, at least three days a week, and then walking a bunch is a decent mix. If you want to add more cardio in there just doing strategically, okay, supplements now this is the one I was very hesitant to, to get too much into on because there's a lot of snake oil out there. And, you know, my opinion, when it comes to supplements is you're just trying to fill in the gaps. I mean, other than performance supplements for like lifting, we're going to keep that off the table right now, for thyroid support, we're really just saying supporting your nutrients where you might have gaps, that you're not getting through food or what have you. And especially the ones that we know are associated with thyroid health. So selenium, these are things that you could supplement. And again, work with a practitioner because something like zinc, if you have too much zinc and not enough copper, there can be an imbalance there. There's all sorts of dependencies between different supplements. So I'm not recommending these, I'm just saying consider do your research, talk to a qualified professional and really figure out based on testing and based on you whether you need any of these right, vitamin D thymi, B 12. Magnesium, I recommend to most people anyway, because I think we're generally deficient. And it helps with things like sleep and a little bit with stress as well. And then Hashimotos there's this other there's something called Myo inositol, which is and I did some research into this, it does seem to reduce some of the antibodies associated with the thyroid condition, you know, the autoimmune condition, and stabilizes the TS TSH. So again, you have Hashimotos, I assume you're working with a practitioner on that anyway. So that's it for supplements, again, I would focus on getting it from food and then test for deficiencies and then potentially look into supplementation. So the bottom line here is it didn't take as long as I thought is nourishing your thyroid is as important as nourishing any of your other parts of your body when it comes to hormones. But it particularly affects could affect your weight, your energy, your mood, your brain, all of these things. And I think these are simple changes. And if there are any opportunities here, I would take the time, my suggestion is identify one opportunity on this list, and I'm gonna send you the guide and I'm gonna send you this replay so you can review it again, just one opportunity to improve your nutrition or your lifestyle from what I share today. Second thing is get bloodwork and other testing possibly through a functional medical practitioner, potentially a full thyroid panel, you know, TPO and TG antibodies, micronutrient testing, gi map, things like that, whatever you feel like you need to go to that next level. And then of course, the other option is join our Whitson weights physique university, you know, I would say this. It's a semi private group coaching program where you can get some support and accountability to work on some of these issues. Adding a VA right So Camille says adding a variety of fiber. Yeah, it's huge, right? Because we think of fiber as this one thing, but it's actually very diverse. You know, type of carbohydrate with different types. And then there's fermented and there's the different. There's lectins, and pectins. And all these compounds. There's a whole variety out there. I always want to plug macro factor for you guys. Because if you're not already tracking your food, and you want to track not only your macros and calories, but you want to track fiber and micronutrients, they have a way to do that in the app, it's more than a food blogger, right, it also tracks your metabolism. So it's a good way to see if your thyroid is responding as well. For example, if you're in a fat loss phase, and you now your metabolism is a bit more responsive, it doesn't, it doesn't tank as much as what I often see with individuals with thyroid conditions, it tends to adapt faster. You know, you can use that before and after to compare and see if what you're doing is working for you. I'm going to throw a video in the chat. It's a YouTube video you guys can take with you. That explains how to download and set it up. Alright, I hope you enjoyed that training about how to heal your thyroid naturally. And don't forget to download your FREE heal your thyroid guide using the link in my show notes or by going to Whitson weights.com/free That's Whitson weights.com/free or use the link in my show notes to download the detailed companion guide to this episode. No matter where you are on your thyroid journey. Remember, you have the power to take control of your health. Always advocate for yourself, educate yourself and never give up on feeling your best. Okay in our next episode 177 How anatomy impacts your gut muscle mass hormones and health with Justin Caudill. Justin shares how understanding our digestive systems anatomy can lead to better nutrient absorption and overall health and also how our bodies physically adapt to training. We explore the impacts of understanding your anatomy on your personal health and fitness. We get into a lot of interesting side areas things I know you haven't heard before, practical advice to go along with it to optimize your nutrition and training. So as always, please make sure to hit follow right now in your podcast app or subscribe here to the YouTube channel to get notified when that episode comes out and to support the show. As always, stay strong. And I'll talk to you next time here on The Whitson weights podcast.

Philip Pape 27:20

Philip Pape 5/24/24 Philip Pape 5/24/24

Ep 175: The "Big Is Beautiful" Movement, Obesity, and Heart Health with Dr. Tiffany Di Pietro

Is big really beautiful? What's the connection between LDL and coronary disease? How can someone who looks healthy have high cholesterol? What's the key to optimal heart health? Philip’s special guest is Dr. Tiffany Di Pietro, a triple board-certified cardiologist, internal medicine specialist, and nuclear cardiologist. Dr. Di Pietro discusses the "Big Is Beautiful" movement, obesity, and heart health. She also discusses various topics, including monitoring health markers, understanding LDL and saturated fats, mental health, high cholesterol, weight loss, and more. She also shares best practices for nutrition and exercise.

Is big really beautiful? What's the connection between LDL and coronary disease? How can someone who looks healthy have high cholesterol? What's the key to optimal heart health?

In this episode, Philip's (@witsandweights) special guest is Dr. Tiffany Di Pietro, a triple board-certified cardiologist, internal medicine specialist, and nuclear cardiologist. Dr. Di Pietro discusses the "Big Is Beautiful" movement, obesity, and heart health. She also discusses various topics, including monitoring health markers, understanding LDL and saturated fats, mental health, high cholesterol, weight loss, and more. She also shares best practices for nutrition and exercise.

Dr. Tiffany Di Pietro graduated from Magna Cum Laude with a Bachelor of Science degree in Psychobiology at 19. She became the youngest graduate of the College of Osteopathic Medicine at Nova Southeastern University. Dr. Di Pietro is passionate about educating the public about health, nutrition, and disease prevention. Her approach to healthcare is infectious positivity, and the rule she lives by is: BE NICE.

Today, you’ll learn all about:

0:00 Intro
3:03 Debunking heart disease myths and the importance of preventative measures
6:07 What health markers should be monitored
7:32 The importance of understanding LDL in preventing coronary disease
12:36 Threshold for saturated fats, and measuring inflammatory markers
17:57 The significance of calcium scores and fiber
21:56 Resistance training for heart health, especially for women
23:41 How much walking affects cardiovascular health
26:37 The impact of mental health on cardiovascular well-being
29:01 Typical causes of high cholesterol in people who appear to be healthy
30:26 Is big beautiful and/or healthy?
36:06 Advice for someone struggling to lose weight
41:54 Dr. Di Pietro’s "be nice" philosophy
44:18 Does genetically elevated LDL in perimenopause predispose you to higher cardiovascular risk?
45:41 Testosterone and cardiovascular health concerns
49:52 What question did Dr. Di Pietro wish Philip had asked
54:29 Where to find Dr. Di Pietro
55:01 Outro

Episode resources:

Dr. Di Pietro's IG: @drtiffanydipietro and @dipietrohealth/
Website: DiPietroHealth.com

Episode summary:

In a world where health is often taken for granted, it's critical to turn our attention to one of the most vital organs in our body—the heart. The latest podcast episode with Dr. Tiffany Di Pietro, a triple board-certified cardiologist, opens the door to a deeper understanding of heart health. Dr. Di Pietro's expertise shines as she debunks common myths about heart disease and shares life-saving strategies.

One of the most sobering realities brought to light in the episode is that heart disease is an indiscriminate killer, claiming the lives of women more than any other disease. This underscores a crucial message: everyone needs to be aware of their cardiovascular risk factors, which include cholesterol levels, blood pressure, and blood sugar. Dr. Di Pietro's emphasis on a preventative approach to healthcare is not just a recommendation—it's a potential lifesaver.

As the episode progresses, the conversation moves beyond the basics of heart disease, addressing complex topics like the Big is Beautiful movement and the intricate relationship between dietary fats and heart health. Dr. Di Pietro navigates these topics with finesse, making a strong case for balance in our diet and lifestyle. She stresses the importance of understanding that a combination of medication and lifestyle adjustments can create a shield against cardiovascular diseases.

Another key element of the discussion is the transformative power of exercise. Dr. Di Pietro doesn't just promote any physical activity; she advocates for resistance training and high-intensity workouts that not only bolster physical health but also contribute to a happier, stronger mind. This holistic view of health does not end with the physical; it also encompasses the undeniable connection between mental well-being and physical health.

Addressing the challenges of weight loss, Dr. Di Pietro reminds us that personal accountability plays a vital role. She highlights the importance of finding a supportive doctor-patient relationship and navigating the financial aspects of investing in one's health. This point is crucial, as the right medical guidance can be the difference between managing a condition and allowing it to spiral out of control.

Towards the end of the episode, the focus shifts to healthcare spending and the significance of patient communication. Dr. Di Pietro stresses the importance of clear and honest dialogue between doctors and patients. She also shares insights on overcoming bad days and the benefits of personalized fitness regimes. These are more than just words; they are part of a philosophy that places happiness and health at the forefront of a fulfilling life.

In summary, the episode with Dr. Di Pietro is not just informative; it's a clarion call to prioritize heart health. By unveiling the truths about cardiac wellness and providing actionable strategies, this episode serves as a valuable resource for anyone seeking to improve their heart health and overall well-being. With Dr. Di Pietro's compassionate guidance, listeners are empowered to make informed decisions about their health and to take meaningful steps toward a healthier future.

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Transcript

Dr. Tiffany Di Pietro 00:00

People gain weight. They go through divorces, you know, a child dies something catastrophic happens. We're human things happen to us weight fluctuates, stress fluctuates, life fluctuates, but it's about kind of getting back on track and loving yourself enough to want to be around to want to live a long life to be around for your children to be around for your family.

Philip Pape 00:21

Dr. Tiffany Di Pietro 02:45

What a nice welcome. Thanks for having me.

Philip Pape 02:47

Absolutely. I know my listeners are gonna love to hear all about this, because we talk about heart disease, sometimes as just a man's disease, and not realizing it's really the number one cause of death for women as well, obviously, and there are a lot of other, you know, scary statistics we can get into here. I do want to understand from you, you know, why is it a concern just in general for the population? And then what the risk factors are individuals have to think about before we get into, okay, how do we deal with that? Sure.

Dr. Tiffany Di Pietro 03:14

So, you know, as you said, heart disease is the number one killer of women also in this country. And I feel like I say that on repeat. And yet I still feel like people don't know it. So it's a little frustrating. You know, I think the society's for breast imaging and mammograms, they do a great job in October, where everything's Pink, pink, pink, and everyone remembers to get their mammograms. But at the end of the day, more women die of heart disease and all forms of cancer combined. So, you know, I tell my female patients, it's great that you know, when your last mammogram wasn't, it's great that you know that you're due for one, but I mean, you really should just know your cholesterol and know your blood sugar and know what your blood pressure is and what those numbers should be. And really kind of ask your doctor, what do I need to be worried about? What should I be focused on? What are these numbers? And what should they be? As a little statistic since 1984, which is before I was born, believe it or not, more women have died of heart disease than men in this country. And that's a staggering statistic. Forget just that, you know, that's number one killer. I mean, more women actually die than men have heart disease. And I think that's partially education. And I think that's partially like we still especially physicians, honestly still don't think that when a woman coming in with chest pain or palpitations, you know, it's kind of chalked up to being anxiety or something else. And there's a big lacking in medicine, amongst even physicians kind of taking women seriously.

Philip Pape 04:38

Yeah, I understand what you mean. Because just in my own family's history, you know, primarily think of, you know, my grandfather died of heart attack and heart disease on on men side, and I wonder where the stigma comes from. I'm curious if you know where that history comes from. I mean, there's a lot of stigma when it comes to women's health and a lot of areas that we're now trying to correct. But I'm just curious about that.

Dr. Tiffany Di Pietro 04:59

I don't I'm You know, the reason I became a cardiologist is truthfully, I just I found that it was a niche that really I can make some difference. And I know it sounds corny and cheesy, but it's just the truth. And you see a lot more female cardiologist starting to graduate and come out as well. But it's still definitely even an underrepresented field amongst female cardiologists. If you go to the cardiology conventions, it's like, you know, 75 80% men and 20% women. So I think as more females graduate, as cardiologists we'll kind of see the stigma, hopefully start to dissipate some. But yeah, I don't know. I wish I knew the answer to that. But

Philip Pape 05:35

okay, yeah, no worries, well, let's we can dive into the practical stuff and try to understand it here, as well as what people can do about it. But you mentioned bloodwork, I think, you know, if anybody goes to like the CDC website, or just Google, or even just from experience, we all have heard the main types of things to measure, right? blood pressure, cholesterol, things like your weight and your activity come into play alcohol and things like that. What would you say, are the top two or three things that everybody should be measuring on a regular basis, as opposed to say over testing certain things? And just getting freaked out? What are the things they really should be measured? And then where does the distinction for women particularly come in with some of those measurements?

Dr. Tiffany Di Pietro 06:12

Yep. So luckily, that's a very easy question. So blood pressure, for sure. The problem with blood pressure Well, amongst other cardiovascular issues, but the problem with blood pressure is we call it the silent killer for a reason, you can have very high blood pressure and have zero symptoms. And so that's probably truthfully number one, followed by blood sugar and cholesterol levels, in particular, the LDL, I tell my patients think of L for lousy, that's the bad cholesterol, that number, the pendulum has really started to swing. So Europe is always ahead of the United States in medicine. And their guidelines are usually three to four years ahead of ours. So I tend to look at European guidelines a lot, because I know what's going to come downstream for the United States. But when I was in training, and in medical school, the goal LDL was less than 130. Now it's less than 100. And if you have diabetes, or have a history of a heart attack, it's less than 70. So what we've really started to see in medicine over the past really decade is that the lower the cholesterol, it's almost a one to one correlation in terms of lowering your risk of heart disease. So by far easy stuff, this is like bread and butter hasn't changed in many years, except for maybe the cut offs is blood pressure, blood sugar, and cholesterol numbers.

Philip Pape 07:26

Okay, and I want to jump into my first of the controversies that are out there. And that is, I currently eat a flexible diet as to you know, we're proponents of, you know, eating what works for you tracking, you know, working out all of this stuff, and not being too rigid with any particular food you don't We don't cut out foods or anything like that. However, there are some camps out there in the fitness industry with food when it comes to cardiovascular disease and saturated fats, for example, or even the measurement of LDL cholesterol, you know, not believing that it's as serious, can you address some of those misconceptions of why understanding LDL and having an under certain number is important for everybody, and what the links are any evidence with that and cardiovascular disease, that's one piece of it, the other we can get into like low carb and all that later.

Dr. Tiffany Di Pietro 08:12

You know, there's more links in research with this, and probably pretty much anything else in cardiology, I mean, I could pull article after article after article. And again, to my point earlier, that's why we now know that the lower that number, the less the risk of heart disease. Now, I think what's important is people take things to the extremes. And you could have a very low LDL and still have a heart attack, or you could have a very high LDL and have no coronary disease. So a big part of it is the number. But what comes into that also is someone's genetics and what they're genetically at risk for. So you can have a very kind of normal ish LDL, let's say it's maybe 110 115, it's close to being normal. But that LDL might be very sticky, or what we call atherogenic, LDL. And if you have a very atherogenic LDL, it really doesn't matter how low it is, you're higher risk than someone that does not have an atherogenic LDL. And that's where some of these more advanced lipid panels come into play. In terms of diet, I am a big fan of pretty much everything in moderation is okay. That's always been what I stand by. Obviously, if I have a very uncontrolled diabetic, it's, you know what, well, let me let me back up. What I realize is when you tell people a little bit, it's not never really a little bit, it's more than, you know, maybe a little less than what they were doing. And when you say no, then they'll still do a little bit. So, for instance, my diabetic patients, I'll say Listen, no refined sugar, no, this know that knowing that they're going to have a little bit. But you know, I think you'd be hard pressed to say, well, you know, if I have an egg or two, you know, twice a week that something catastrophic is going to happen to me. And a lot of times, that's where their medications come into play, too. And I think my biggest frustration with the world right now is thinking that everyone's doing something for some fun pharmaceutical company to make money. You know, it's frustrating. I have never made $1 off of any pharmaceutical company. But yet some on the internet says that we do. I don't know where they're getting this information, but I'd like to know where my money is, if that's the case, for sure

Philip Pape 10:13

you gotta get I've never made a dime, get those royalty checks. Yeah, yeah, it's, you know,

Dr. Tiffany Di Pietro 10:18

I'm sure there's some margin of truth to someone somewhere, some CEO of some business, but when it boils down to it, you know, our your regular hometown, good cardiologists look at data, we analyze that data independently, and we come up with the right decisions for our patients, and you'd be very hard pressed to find a cardiologist that's not, you know, doesn't want to be famous for being different. Let me put it that way. That would say that cholesterol medications are going to harm you. I mean, there's just too many studies saying that they're not going to do I want to put patients on medications? No, but do I have to sometimes because it's the right thing for them, and I want them to live a long healthy life. Yes. So you know, it's a conversation that you have to have with the patients. And my most common quote in my office is you can take one medication now, or you can take for for the rest of your life, after you have your heart attack, it's your pick,

Philip Pape 11:12

I totally relate. And I'm not going to criticize that either. And I've seen in my own family where someone my own father included, has gone on medications, but then change his lifestyle was able to maybe come back off some of them, maybe not all of them. And at the end of the day, we want to have give ourselves the best shot I think while also not being stupid, just not I hate to say it that way, but not just, you know, following the, the extreme kind of influencer, you know, mentality here, like you said, against maybe against the medical profession. Well,

Dr. Tiffany Di Pietro 11:41

it's also about what's maintainable as well. So when I talk to patients about diet and exercise, you know, if I say, you know, you should eat a diet full of X, Y, and Z, and they hate all of those foods, well, that's just not going to work. It's not feasible for that person. And so, you know, every decision that is made should be a very educated decision between the patient and the doctor in there, yes, very personalized between the patient and the doctor, and what's going to be best for them. But to say that we don't have so many tools in our armamentarium to help people not die of heart disease. I mean, 90 90% of heart disease is preventable 90. Yeah, that's a staggering number. And we have so many things to help us prevent it, but yet, we get so much pushback. You know, look at our life expectancy, we live a lot longer than we ever did before. That's not because we're miraculously more healthy. No, we're fatter. We're fatter than we've ever been in this country, yet. We're living longer. That's because of medicine. Yeah, so Okay. Fair

Philip Pape 12:37

point. Now, the people listening to this show may be in a little bit of a different tier of the prevention side, where they are, you know, trying to be preventative with their lifestyle, they are willing to, you know, eat more whole nutrient dense foods, you know, they don't want to cut everything out because they understand flexibility. And sustainability is important. But they want to know, for example, dietary fats, it's confusing. There's, you know, mono unsaturated poly, and they're saturated, we've heard that there may be as a threshold for saturated fat associated with cardiovascular disease. And so two points there, I would love to hear you help clarify is, is there a reasonable, say limit to saturated fat in particular, that we should be cognizant of? And is any of the research confounded in the populations with that level? In other words, if you have an overall healthy lifestyle, with everything else, is that saturated fat limit as important? Probably

Dr. Tiffany Di Pietro 13:25

not. Again, I think it's very difficult. Well, it's very difficult to give a global answer on that, because it really is so personalized each person, I think, probably from my experience in my research, I mean, obviously saturated fats, there is a link between saturated fats and cardiovascular disease, I don't think No is the answer, I think, you know, really watching and being cognizant of it is probably the answer. More importantly, is the effect on those saturated fats to inflammation in the body. And so the more research we do, the more we find out that it's yes, it's cholesterol, and yes, it's saturated fats. But really, it's what's causing this inflammatory response in the human body, which is then leading to the cancer and the heart disease and the heart attacks in addition to that, and so really, it boils down to for most trying to avoid things that come out of animals, especially very big animals, because there's a pretty good link between that and systemic inflammation. So you know, we like things that grow out of the ground first, and then we like things with no legs in the ocean, and then things with little teeny tiny legs on the ocean floor, and then we kind of work our way up to where I would never tell someone ever that they can never have a steak or a hamburger or hotdog, which should it be definitely, but should it be the the mainstay of their diet. Do I want someone eating? You know, something that came out of a cow every day? No, because I can almost guarantee you their inflammatory Mark. because you're going to be elevated. And

Philip Pape 15:02

is that measurable through any sort of like autoimmune type panels or I'm just curious when it comes to inflammation, it's kind of a confusing topic for a lot of people, because people will talk about inflammatory foods or, and they'll kind of overlap it with things like insulin resistance and sensitivity and a whole bunch of other things that get confusing. Is there a way to measure that are very

Dr. Tiffany Di Pietro 15:21

different stuff? Yeah, so we use something called a high sensitivity CRP or CRP, there's CRP. And there's a high sensitivity CRP, in particular, in cardiology, we use a test called a high sensitivity, CRP. And that gives us an idea of if there's any inflammation going on inside of the arteries, generally in your body, but more particularly the arteries of the heart. And that's what cardiologists really care the most about is really that inflammatory response you could have. So people kind of that are listening, understand, like I said, you could have a very high cholesterol, you could have all of these problems, but it's usually an inflammatory event, some sort of inflammatory response that causes disruption of the arterial wall and the plaque that then causes the heart attack. It's an inflammatory response. And so you know, my take home for my patients is listen, I'm really never going to say you can't ever have anything. But if you, you know, if you love fish, I'd rather you have more fish than steak. And if you love steak, I'd rather you have the filet not the New York Strip, like there's ways of manipulating it some. But yeah, I'm not, I'm not a no go type of physician. I just don't think it's maintainable. And at the end of the day, I just want people to maintain health, I don't want them to be super healthy for five years, and then fall off the wagon. That doesn't that's not success in my book.

Philip Pape 16:37

I totally agree. I mean, there's small changes that if anybody made them would be a big step change, right? It's kind of the 8020 because I believe something like most Americans consume, like 70% Ultra processed foods or something, if you just flip that around, that's a huge improvement, huge, you know, huge.

Dr. Tiffany Di Pietro 16:52

I even say, you know, if someone could have, like three vegan meals a week, and then we manipulate that to just one a day, you know, think about like a lunch with just like salad and like a balsamic vinegar and lots of vegetables, like, I could never be vegan. So it's very hard for me to tell my patients to but I know I could do one meal a day vegan, I know, I can do that. I could eat oatmeal that's made with water, almond milk. And there's ways of doing this. And I think taking those little, it's like parking far away and walking instead of parking, you know, at the closest spot, taking those little steps, is really what makes the biggest difference long term. Yeah,

Philip Pape 17:29

I hear you. And same thing. I'm an omnivore. And I'll have occasionally a non meat based dish here and there. I don't know if I've gone a whole day without me. But that's just me. And at the end of the day, like I know, when I work with my, like nutrition clients, if we look at something like saturated fat, and it's way up there, then you know, there's some shifts that could be beneficial in what you're saying, you know, incorporating more plants or seafood and things like that will just naturally get you away from that. And so there's different ways to kind of look at it. You mentioned arteries. So that brings to mind the calcium score. Do you recommend that the calcium like that heart X ray, or no? Oh, no, it's just a controversy.

Dr. Tiffany Di Pietro 18:05

It's a big concert. So anyone who's probably cracking up right now, I absolutely despise calcium scores. Okay, let me maybe refrain that, you know, rephrase that a little bit. I despise calcium scores on anyone under the age of 60. The older you get, the more reasonable and sensitive and specific a calcium score becomes. Here's the science behind it. A calcium score measures calcium, okay, calcium in or around the arteries of the heart, it does not look at nor can it measure any cholesterol rich plaque, which has not calcified yet. That process of calcification takes time, it does not happen overnight. So if you do a calcium score on a 45 year old, and the score is zero, then what happens with the pavement and let's say their cholesterol is high, and this is my problem with it. I get a patient that comes in doc, and this happens once a week. Doc, my cholesterol is high, my primary wants to put me on a statin, I don't want to be on it, I want you to order a calcium score. No, because what's going to happen is I'm going to order that calcium score on a 45 year old and it's probably going to be zero, because calcium has not had time to form yet. And then what happens is that patient who might actually have cholesterol buildup in those arteries now definitely is not going to take medication because now you've just told them what they want to hear. Now you fast forward 10 years and that person's had a heart attack when the medication probably would have prevented it had they taken it prior. So older patients it's an okay test and I don't Super Fight on someone that's kind of 60 and older, questionable mid 50s. Maybe I start negotiating never before mid 50s good to know because you're just going to miss a substantial amount of cholesterol plaque that is not calcified yet and give people this false sense of security that everything's okay. I have horror stories of patients that have normal calcium score. And I've had heart attacks and open heart surgery and you name it, that it's bad. I mean, I lecture doctors on this, usually about once a year. And inevitably, all of them come up to me, there's like a line out the door afterwards like, Oh, my God, I've been doing this wrong all along, you have to understand how this works. So, you know, it's a cheap test, but it only risk stratifies. It's kind of like giving you half assed information. If I'm going to order something, I want to know everything. I

Philip Pape 20:26

get it, because it'd be one thing I guess, if you said if the score was negative, that's the only time we're going to act on it. But like, you know, humans don't work that way. Because the zero comes back and you rely on that. So

Dr. Tiffany Di Pietro 20:37

you know, in a 45 year old, the only positive meaning of a calcium score is when it's not zero, because then you got a real problem. Yeah, I have and you already have patients

Philip Pape 20:45

started early. And it took that long. Yeah, right. I'm glad I asked. Because I have heard that I was asked to take one years ago when my cholesterol dipped up just a tad. And it came down later. And it was like, what was the point? But ya know, I've heard people get recommended that so now that listeners was more informed, and that's why I asked it. Okay, so I think we talked about a little bit about nutrition. I don't know if fiber is another one that comes to mind. I mean, for years and years, I grew up in the 80s. And it was like, fiber rich cereal, you know, hard, healthy and all that. Cheerios. Right, I think they still have it on there. Tell us more about the link there. Yeah,

Dr. Tiffany Di Pietro 21:15

fiber, from a cardiovascular standpoint helps to increase the HDL a little bit, which is the good cholesterol, and decrease triglycerides a little bit, which is another type of cholesterol particle. I think more important for fibers really colon health, if anything, you know, it keeps your poop nice and soft, and you get to have nice bowel movements. And there's a pretty good correlation between high fiber diets and less incidence of colon cancer, just like there's incidents of high animal protein like high red meat diets and a higher incidence of colon cancer. Yeah. So I think that's probably more the correlation now, less so for heart disease, and probably more for colon health.

Philip Pape 21:50

Okay, yeah. And that's a good reason to your fiber anyway, your gut health and your digestion and all that. Let's talk about exercise a little bit here. We're big into muscle building muscle strength training on this show. I can't shut up about it. I have tons of guests on all the time to talk about the importance of muscle, almost more important than weight loss for a lot of people in our population, just because they're not dealing with like, significant obesity. But let's talk about the big picture like cardio when you are when you think of heart you think cardio, and then you think cardio is a form of exercise. And there's a strong at least mental lick, link and semantic link. What are your thoughts on overall training regimen for somebody who does have a healthy lifestyle and wants to have the best shot?

Dr. Tiffany Di Pietro 22:30

I think it's both. You know, personally, I'm not a huge cardio person, because my weight training really is cardio. It's kind of both, because my heart rate is high. I hear you and yeah, and I honestly I tell my patients I'm like if you do high intensity interval training, and you incorporate some weights into that, you don't need to do both, like you're probably crossing the T's and dotting the eyes, but resistance training. There's been some studies that show 15% decrease in mortality, for resistance training and 17% decrease cardiovascular mortality. So there's their strong data on resistance training, and overall health and and heart health, for sure. And then I think more importantly, especially for your women listening, big decrease in osteoporosis, big, really big, like, you don't want to take an extra pill every day you go lift some weights, because that's what's gonna keep you from having brittle bones and ending up on medications like next bisphosphonates that we have to give women and men but mostly women when they are postmenopausal and have us and have osteopenia or osteoporosis. Yeah,

Philip Pape 23:28

love it. Okay, yeah, yeah, no, so that's huge. So 17% Decrease in cardiovascular mortality from resistance training. And obviously, osteoporosis, osteopenia. huge benefit for way too. Okay. So obviously, there's no shocking revelation there. You alluded to the fact that if you're training and maybe doing a little bit of cardio in some form or another, you're good. What about walking?

Dr. Tiffany Di Pietro 23:49

I like walking, I think, you know, it's like, what kind of walking are we doing now? Are we taking a leisurely stroll around the block are we like, really walking? For me, I don't buy this whole, like 10,000 steps a day, you know, I want I would rather someone walked in sit around all day long. Obviously, that makes me happy. But I don't consider that exercise. For me that heart rate has to get up you've got to get your heart rate up for to be considered exercise you want your heart to have to work moving all day long. hitting those 10,000 steps, you know, will help keep some weight off, you're obviously burning energy, you're utilizing your metabolism, so on and so forth. But for to really be considered exercise in my book, The heart rates gotta go up. Like if you can carry on a conversation like this, what I tell my patients if you can carry on a conversation like you and I is not exercise.

Philip Pape 24:31

So you mentioned walking, which is interesting, because that wasn't precisely my question. And I'm not criticizing your answer at all. But what's interesting is I recently did an episode called, actually just came out. Today, I think we're yesterday. Who cares if walking is exercise was the name of the episode. And it was a response to this clip that went viral with Dr. Gabrielle Lyon, where she said like, well, I don't consider walking exercise. And it's interesting you say that because I agree like walking maybe has other benefits. If it's not done at this intense level, we often classified as non exercise activity, right? You know, so it matches there. So what you're saying is that from a heart health perspective, weightlifting is number one, some form of cardio that gets a heart rate is up number two, that's a pretty good metric. And then walking beyond that may have other benefits for just like, calorie burn, metabolic rate, you know, whatever. Is there any other Okay, so I guess there's no other like health benefit that we wanted to focus on from low grade walking, then

Dr. Tiffany Di Pietro 25:29

not other than just the obvious kind of benefits of just getting, you know, moving moving your body, which is what I tell people half the time, just move just get up and move don't sit around all day long. Yeah,

Philip Pape 25:40

exactly. Because then you're not not moving, which has its own negative association.

25:46

Hi, my name is Alan. And I just want to give a shout out to Philip Pape of Whitson weights for being a huge part of the foundation for my continued health and well being. Philip exemplifies a nutrition coach who demonstrates how much he cares. Philip works tirelessly, and with dedication, to provide coaching support, and major content for us to use. He creates a practical approach from research, and Philip empowers all of us to use food as quality for our health. He is skilled in how to assess and direct nutrition, Philip creates a community full of wisdom, support and camaraderie. In summary, PhilPapers, the real deal, he knows how to assess and direct nutrition, and he continues to steer me in the right direction. Thank you, Philip.

Philip Pape 26:37

So speaking of lifestyle, then outside of training and nutrition, we've got, you know, I know stress and depression are like on the CDC list of risk factors, sleep, probably the whole mental side of it, social connection, and all of that come into play, mainly because of stress. What are your thoughts on that, so it doesn't get too muddied for folks listening. But I

Dr. Tiffany Di Pietro 26:57

think it's a big problem. You know, if you just look generally at mental health as a whole, most people that have what we would call, like low quality mental health are more of our physically unhealthy people as well. And so we start to wonder Which came first, the chicken or the egg, because you know, patients that have higher, maybe consider themselves healthier, I should say, healthier, happier, excuse me, happier people, they tend to be thinner, they tend to go out with their friends more, have better social interactions, maybe go to the gym with other people. So I think there's a big, big, big connection. You know, people that have positive outlooks tend to have lower blood pressure, lower heart rates. And there's been a few studies as well on stress, and patients that think that they have a lot of stress or define themselves as having a very stressful life, have higher inflammatory markers also, and higher incidence of high blood pressure, high cholesterol. So there's a big, big, big Interplay amongst that. Okay,

Philip Pape 27:55

so and I liked that you made the link like chicken and egg, because people always wonder, and I definitely talked about this, too, the mental health is often improved. When you go for a walk, when you work out, you hang out with your friends, right, like you said, even just maintaining a healthy body composition and bodyweight. So that leads to like, the question, is there one thing that underlies all of this? And is it really just maintaining a healthy weight in body composition? And really everything else? As a corollary of that, is that a stretch? Or is that? You know, reasonable?

Dr. Tiffany Di Pietro 28:23

I think it's generally reasonable. You know, again, you know, if we're just looking statistically, yes, that's probably a reasonable statement to make. I mean, obviously, I have been people in my office that are not very healthy. And I've had heart attacks. But, you know, I think that's a pretty, it's a pretty easy conclusion to make. Yeah, you know, because a lot of people say, Oh, well, I'm happy because I have this, and I have that, and I have an expensive car. But these are very, my patients that have very high stress jobs, and they're really not that healthy, they just appear to be happy from the outside, and you really, as their physician, I can tell you, that's not always the case at all. So

Philip Pape 29:01

when somebody is in your office that visually appears what somebody would say is thin or, quote unquote, healthy visually, and they have high cholesterol, what's typically the cause there are what are like the top two or three causes.

Dr. Tiffany Di Pietro 29:14

Number one is genetics. You can't escape your genetics, you cannot escape your genetics, patients, people listening, everybody must know. And if they don't know they should dig around until they find out what you know, people have died from or what diseases they had in their family because you cannot escape that. So I think that's unequivocally number one. Number two is remember, there's such a thing as skinny fat, right? You could be skinny and have high cholesterol if you're not eating the right foods to your point earlier. So you could sit around and have Cheetos all day long and not consume a lot of calories and be thin but you're consuming awful foods with lots of fat and no whole grains and no Whole Foods. So that's a real thing. So

Philip Pape 29:59

yeah, I'm glad you mentioned that yeah, skinny fat. You're right, because that's that's why I say body composition specifically. You know, we often talk about fat loss versus weight loss, because there is a heavy emphasis on weight loss, but not at all costs, right? Not if you're losing your muscle mass, your bone density decreases. And then like you said, it could even lead to hidden or stealth things happening with your health, like cardiovascular disease just because you look skinny. So it's important for people to know, the spectrum, which then leads me into this whole the obesity paradox, right? Can big be beautiful and healthy? I know you wanted to get into that. Let's talk about that. Right? I guess we can talk about the movement in the body positivity thing. I don't need to get too much into the political stuff, but we can get into reality and what is healthy and what's not, and how we should be approaching the subject. Yeah, you

Dr. Tiffany Di Pietro 30:45

know, I think people don't want to talk about it, because you don't want to get hate mail and get hated. And, and you know, and I understand that I do, but you know, you will never come into my office, overweight, number one obese for sure. And have me not telling you that you need to lose weight, it's just, it's just not going to happen. Like go find another doctor, my job is to make sure I do everything in my power to get my patients to be healthy and live long, fulfilling good lives with a good quality of life, right? That's my goal. That is not going to happen. If you're obese, it's not, it's just not going to happen. So, you know, having someone like the way they look feel comfortable in their skin is very different than you coming to a doctor's office and you being obese and me telling you that you're healthy. And it's a real thing, because what happens, we get laughs on some of these people. And you know that we go off on a healthy fat guy. And it's like, maybe for now, but that's not gonna stay like that forever. And so my line that I tell my patients that I probably, so I preface I said, Listen, I'm going to tell you something, and you're not going to like what I'm going to tell you and you're probably going to leave here really pissed off at me. And then you're going to come back and you're going to be thinking, man, you know, I kind of a team up, I get them ready. And I look at them. And I say you tell me the last time you saw a fat 80 year old, and they kind of sit back. And I'm like, go ahead, tell me, right? Because every once a while someone says, but statistically you don't. And they say, Well, I don't. I don't know if that 80 year old. And they go tell me why I make them say it. Tell me why they go because they're dead. Exactly. Because you do not live long lives in this country or around the world period. If you're heavy, especially if you're obese, and it's like a one to one, the heavier you are, the more likely you are to die early. It's clear cut their cut. And there's something to be said truthfully, about being too big, even muscularly. Right. Let's still wait. So would I rather someone be very muscular than very fat? Having adipose tissue? But there are a lot of like, Mr. Universe, Mr. This Mr. That and all these people that are they walk around like their arms can't even touch their sides, right? They walk around like this. Also not good. Weight is weight. So we we want to be like long and lean and have good skeletal muscle mass with very little as much as we can of adipose tissue. But it's just not good.

Philip Pape 33:09

Yeah. First, you just triggered all the lifters who are like, are you to tell me not to have all that muscle? No, but it's true. I mean, most people aren't going to be I think that big anyway, the short of performance enhancing drugs, but you know, I do know a lot of lifters in their, in their 50s who have a lot of muscle in there. It's they're bigger. And you're right, like the metabolic markers tend to drift in the direction we don't want them to. But it's partly body fat today. To get that level of muscle, you tend to be gaining fat in the process unless you lean out. So the thing you said about 80 year olds, I mean, it's so true. I've maybe seen large 70 Something year olds and they're all just they've got 20 different ailments, and they're like on death's door. And that's not a place we want to be.

Dr. Tiffany Di Pietro 33:47

And number one complaint Are you ready for this? Number one complaint is? Well, two. Number one is my knees hurt. No shit. Wait, he's hurt. Yeah, you're carrying around an 80 pound backpack all day long. And that's what I tell them. I said, How do you think I would feel they put on an 80 pound backpack and walked around all day long. My knees are gonna hurt. My hips are gonna hurt and I'm gonna be freaking exhausted at the end of the day. So don't come here and telling me that it's not your weight that's causing it because it is your weight that's causing it. Yeah,

Philip Pape 34:10

no. 100% Yeah, and the whole thing the biggest beautiful big is healthy that I mean, yeah, we I guess we can separate the subjective side people can say whatever they want about, you know, attractiveness. But as far as loving your body and all of that, right, we have that whole body positivity movie elite movement, at least the way I put it is if you love your body, you're gonna care to get it into a healthy state. And there's nothing wrong with being big now and having the desire to not be there's nothing wrong with that and you can still love yourself and go through that process. Well, yeah.

Dr. Tiffany Di Pietro 34:40

Yeah. Because you have to love the process. Right? You have to you have to love wanting to be around. I was reading a book this week, just about optimism and life. And then a friend of mine posted something and it all kind of came to kind of coalesce together. This is sometimes you have to do things today. Not because of yourself today, but because of who you want to look back Back on tomorrow and say I wish I would have done it right. So you're doing stuff for your future self, you're not doing it for yourself today. And that's a very good way of looking at everything, you know, just because someone's heavy. Now listen, shit happens. People gain weight, they go through divorces, you know, a child dies, something catastrophic happens, we're human things happen to us weight fluctuates, stress fluctuates, life fluctuates. But it's about kind of getting back on track and loving yourself enough to want to be around to want to live a long life to be around for your children to be around for your family. And I think that's kind of the most important take home point. I don't harp on people for being big. I harp on people for not wanting to change it and not loving themselves enough to change it.

Philip Pape 35:43

Yeah, 100%. And so if someone is in that state, and they're listening, and they're like, Okay, I hear it, and I've want to change. And in fact, maybe I've wanted to change for a while, and I may have taken certain actions change, and something's not quite working. I mean, I definitely deal with this all the time of like, I'm trying to lose weight, I'm trying to do this, or it's my hormones, or it's my gym, or whatever. And it's not working. And there's usually some underlying practical reason for that. But what is your take on that someone says, you know, I've got a lot of weight to lose, I'm trying, it's just not working. But

Dr. Tiffany Di Pietro 36:13

I see that with everything, you know, I have not to break away from kind of the point of, of our, you know, I have patients like, oh, I can't do it all. And I can't do this, and I can't do that I can't take my kid here. I'm asked for help. You don't have to do everything yourself. You know, if you find the right doctor, and you're willing to have a great relationship, you'll find someone that can help you. And at the same token, I find that, you know, again, we go way off the mountain sometimes and they think it's hormones, and they think it's it must be this, it must be that I'm doing everything right. And you're not. Yeah, they're not, you know, because everyone wants an easy answer. Not an excuse, but they want something easy to put their finger on to not have to do the hard work, be introspective, and say, maybe I maybe this is me. Yeah, right. And so sometimes it takes someone a little tough to say, Listen, I'm going to help you through it, we're going to get you there. But you got to look in the mirror and realize this is not your thyroid, this is not, you know your hormones, this is you and we got it, we got to get you back on track. And we'll check everything else. And we'll make sure everything else is optimized. But at the end of the day, 99% of the time, obesity is not due to some patho physiologic process, it's due to someone creating poor habits.

Philip Pape 37:22

Yeah. And that's an empowering message. If we want to spend in the positive, that's an empowering message because it means you're not at the whim of fate, you've got total control over the situation. And like you said, just ask for help if you're having trouble, or maybe you don't understand fully the context or the strategy that you need to be successful. And that's where others can help you other experts. Honestly, that's why you go on podcasts and such. That's why I have this it's like to share as much information as we can, based on whatever evidence we're aware of. So people can make those behavioral changes.

Dr. Tiffany Di Pietro 37:53

And different things work for different people and that we know know intermittent fasting might work for you. It might not work for me, but you got to tease through all the BS and kind of find that and you've got to sometimes also step back and say, Okay, well, why is it so miraculous? And so why? Because someone's making money on it. So you have to, you know, if rapid is in there rapid weight loss or Miraculous Weight Loss, like these are not words that any physician or any clinic should ever be using. Because that's not healthy or safe, either. It's a stepwise approach. It's a very, it took you years to put on 50 pounds, it's not going to come off in three months. Yeah.

Philip Pape 38:29

So if somebody then is like, okay, now I hear you here, I'm ready to make a change. I'm going to seek help. Let's talk about the medical side, since that's where you're coming from? How does somebody find a provider that is actually going to help them because I know there's a lot of skepticism these days. I know, there's, there's like gaslighting and things like that out there, too, especially with women's health. There's a whole spectrum of quality out there, right? And it depends on where you live and your insurance and so many things. How does somebody find a good provider? What are they looking for, and then like, communicate with that person to get what they need?

Dr. Tiffany Di Pietro 38:58

I think the first and foremost is finding a provider that number one you like, which that's step one, you have to like your doctor, if you don't like your doctor, it's just it's not gonna go well and that you feel like you communicate well with to a physician that really does focus on prevention, not just curing disease or taking care of someone but because they're coming in with what we call their chief complaint, right? That's for your listeners, it's what doctors say on the forum and you feel chief complaint, that we listen to complaints all day long, basically. Unfortunately, most preventive visits with the exception of an annual physical is not covered by insurances. So it might be something where someone that's listening has to say, Listen, I'm gonna, you know, I've been spending the money on smoking or I've been spending the money on food and you might just have to step back and say, Okay, well I'm gonna spend the money on this now and you might have to pay out of pocket and go without your insurance to have the time to sit down and talk to you know, maybe your current doctor or your new doctor about what your goals are. Because if you're wanting to sit down and spend 20 minutes 30 minutes with your Doctors are going over different goals and what you're trying to achieve, it's going to be hard to do if you're going through insurance because it just truthfully, I know, it's like Woe is me. But the reimbursements are so awful that most doctors just aren't going to do that. So I think finding a true weight loss like, doctor that's board certified, maybe I'm not, but I'm a cardiologist. So I do it but board certified and and Bariatric medicine or obesity medicine that understands this disease process, because it really there's a big mental component to this as well. And those physicians will help get through that break those barriers.

Philip Pape 40:32

Yeah. Isn't it funny that you're right, we spend so much money on so many frivolous things in our budget, and are not willing to spend on health care? Partly because, like you said, we think insurance should cover stuff. So if it doesn't, it's like not even in our sphere of existence, right? I hear that with hormones all the time. You know, my own wife too. We have to pay money for hormone specialists. And it might be functional medical care might be you know, board certified, whatever, it tends to be out of pocket because insurance doesn't cover it. And then like you said, You've got to like the relationship. I haven't. I've heard so many people who just dwell on somebody who's telling them that they're lying, you know, or they don't believe them or whatever. And that's, that's the gaslighting piece of it. But there's even just somebody who's who's in a hole.

Dr. Tiffany Di Pietro 41:15

I hear that all the time. Like, why are you here? I hated the other cardiologist dudes. You know, like, I'm like, okay, cool. Welcome. You know?

Philip Pape 41:23

Exactly. I mean, you know, be nice. At the end

Dr. Tiffany Di Pietro 41:26

of the day, you just have to care a little bit. It's really not that hard. You know, like, we became doctors really, for two reasons. We like medicine and science. We like people. If you don't like people, you shouldn't be a doctor or you should be a pathologist and look at slides all day long.

Philip Pape 41:40

There you go. Yeah. Or a surgeon is kind of like in the middle. Yeah. We like or like, I'll talk to you for a little bit and then

Dr. Tiffany Di Pietro 41:45

or anesthesia. Right, you just night night.

Philip Pape 41:50

Perfect career choice there. Okay, so let's see, we talked about mental health. I guess let's Why don't we end with since you mentioned being nice. Your be nice philosophy. I mean, I love the science, of kindness of positive psychology, of all that kind of stuff. And that seems to tie in well, with mental health. I mean, tell me more about that.

Dr. Tiffany Di Pietro 42:08

Makes me feel better. Yeah. That I mean, you know, I mean, listen, we all have our days. And trust me, I've had my moments like, everybody has their moments. But, you know, sometimes I think it's better to just step away, take a few breaths, and not let the excitement get the best of you on most days. And I listen, I and my patients will say like, Oh, somebody's like, are you okay, Doc, you seem a little off. It's like, Yeah, I'm having an off day. But my husband's a lawyer, and he has a he says something. And I said it's so true. As I say it's not it's not what you say it's how you say it. And my husband in law, they say there's a there's a tone and a tenor. Right. It's the tone and the tenor. It's not what you're saying. It's how aggressive you're sounding, or the tone of your voice and the way that you're saying it. And that's something I think a lot of people could probably benefit from. And I think there's nothing wrong with just kind of saying, you know, what, I need a minute and just kind of step away and clear your head. I mean, the world is a very chaotic and busy place, and we're all hustling and trying to be the best and trying to make the most money and thinking that what people look like on social media is actually what they look like in real life, which is absurd. And, and I think part of it, too, is just being truthful. My best friend says, Say what you mean and mean what you say. And I think there's something to that, you know, if you know, it's simple example, if you know, or if I know that someone asked me to go out, I don't know, for happy hour, and I say okay, yeah, maybe. But I know, in my heart of hearts, it's a no, just say no, yes. Because it's gonna create another problem for you and for ours, when they come back and ask you again, you know, yeah, and sometimes it's just say what you mean and mean what you say like, be nice about it. So you know what, maybe next time it's not, you know, that's not part of my journey today. I

Philip Pape 43:41

love that honest communication. We still read the physical paper, which you can believe it. And they have like the column where somebody writes in for advice. And it's always like, you don't even have to see the question. The answer is you need to talk about it. Like the answer is just communicating. Yeah.

Dr. Tiffany Di Pietro 43:56

You're not upset, because you're never gonna get anywhere communicating when you're upset sometimes just again, taking a minute back be like, You know what, let's let's talk about this tomorrow. But let's like hash it out. But most problems in this world are because someone didn't communicate with someone else adequately.

Philip Pape 44:09

All right, last segment here, I did have some questions from our community. I think two of them have already been answered. So I'm gonna focus on the third one. The first question was how much cardio? I think we addressed that. The second one was does genetically elevated LDL in perimenopause predispose you to higher cardiovascular risk when everything else is in check? And I think again, you said Potentially, yes, yeah, higher LDL. I don't know if there's any more nuanced add to that right. A

Dr. Tiffany Di Pietro 44:32

little bit. I'm a big fan of hormone therapy and the perimenopausal menopausal period. I think that the Women's Health Initiative was very much skewed very early, you know, in the 90s and early 2000s. And now we're realizing that that hormones, probably the pendulum has shifted back and we should probably be offering a lot more hormones. But yes, it's like when you're pregnant, if you have high blood pressure during pregnancy, the likelihood of you having high blood pressure later in your life is also very high. So to answer that question, yes, I mean, if you have Paramount apostle increases in LDL, then there is a higher likelihood of having cardiovascular disease for sure.

Philip Pape 45:04

And that's kind of leads to a side question. So even if you have genetically higher baseline LDL from a fairly young age, that never goes up, let's just say it just stays that way your whole life. Does that still mean you have a higher cardiovascular risk? Yes. You're nodding. Yes. That's important for people to realize because sometimes people talk about Well, no, if that's your baseline, and then it's really only if it goes up. You're saying that there's

Dr. Tiffany Di Pietro 45:25

not like, it's not like, Oops, like, I'm a twice a day pooper. I've always been a twice a day pooper and the other person's I put three times a week and that's me. And that's normal for me. No, okay. You have a genetically elevated LDL, you are genetically predisposed to having heart disease. Okay, good.

Philip Pape 45:40

Good to know. And then the last one, perfect segue. You mentioned HRT? And I guess the question is more? Well, this was actually from a man. But I mean, I think it would apply to both that was for testosterone. For women, it could be all the other forms of hormone replacement therapy. And it was what this is a long question I should have, I should have shortened this. Oh, man, this is a very long question. So much information out there. Most GP doctors and non specialists continue to spread, for example, androgen induced, era throws, okay, you know what, forget this one. This is a very long detailed one I'm not going to get into I'm going to shorten it to HRT and cardiovascular health. Is there any concerns? Generally,

Dr. Tiffany Di Pietro 46:17

no, here's the thing with testosterone, I'm going to focus on testosterone that person was talking about the thing with testosterone is we tend to overdo it. Because men feel fantastic when they're on all this testosterone. There's also something to aging, right? If you're 65, and you feel like you're 20, it's kind of not normal, I don't want you to feel like an old 65. But I also don't really want you feel like you're 20 Because the way you feel and what's going on physiologically inside your body are very different. So my rule of thumb with testosterone is then really the guideline rule of thumb as having low levels and having symptoms. So you're fatigued or you have a low sex drive, you know, these kinds of things. And this is this is when it calls for appropriate testosterone supplementation. By appropriate I mean, we supplement it within normal range. It can be the upper limit of normal range, but we don't want to go super therapeutic with testosterone.

Philip Pape 47:11

PD range, don't go into PD range. Yeah, yeah, the reason

Dr. Tiffany Di Pietro 47:15

is, I can guarantee you testosterone levels are too high cholesterol goes up, blood pressure goes up, higher risk of clotting, pulmonary embolisms coronary clots, big risk. That's why you see the hemoglobin go up so much. And that's a real risk. I've had multiple patients in my practice, end up with open heart surgery, and they had zero risk factors other than inappropriate testosterone supplementation at younger ages. So I have I'm not one of those, I don't have a problem with it. But it needs to be done appropriately. And you have to be very careful weighing the high from the symptoms and what's is causing some metabolic derangement in the body. It's kind of flip flopped for women a little bit. There's no real studies that say like, if you're on estrogen, you're going to decrease your risk of heart disease. It also doesn't increase it. And so for women, we really treat symptoms, not so much numbers, we don't want to over over overdo it. But for women, it's very much symptom driven terms of hot flashes and fatigue and insomnia and things like that. But we do know unequivocally that women that get estrogen treatment and perimenopause and menopause have a lower and somehow still have a lower incidence of heart disease, they have a lower incidence of high cholesterol, lower incidence of hypertension, long term, and most definitely lower incidence of osteoporosis. So it kind of cuts both ways, a little bit differently than than men and women.

Philip Pape 48:35

No, that's good to know the difference. And I wasn't aware of that at all. And yeah, testosterone. On the men's side, it's still controversial for lots of different reasons, especially in the world of lifting where men what would love to be diagnosed and low testosterone so that they can go on supplementation. One more thing related to that. This gentleman is talking about poli sci fi media, which I think is like a blood cancer related to this. I don't know where that comes into it. Poli

Dr. Tiffany Di Pietro 48:59

Sci Fi news. And he's probably referring to having an elevated hemoglobin from the testosterone. So that's where the risk is. That's where the real you know, so it's just interesting to me that some men, they want this testosterone to be so high and and I'll go like, literally give blood it's like, well, just think about that, from a common sense perspective. Like how good do you think it could be to give yourself something where you have to go give blood because of the adverse effect it's doing in your body? Right? Yeah. So it's kind of like a common so if you're if your testosterone so high, where you have to go give blood, you're overdoing it. Okay,

Philip Pape 49:30

his last part of his question was a potential preventative measure of giving blood regularly power read donations, so you know that you know, this stuff, probably overdoing it. Yeah. Okay. No, that's good to know. I think that's all I have there. So you know, I do like to ask guests, Tiffany, because this has been super enlightening. There's a lot of moments of where I learned, I'm sure and like the calcium score or things like that. Is there a question you wish I had asked in this conversation? And if so, what's your answer?

Dr. Tiffany Di Pietro 49:56

Probably. Do I take my own advice? Oh, Oh,

Philip Pape 50:00

sure, let's go there.

Dr. Tiffany Di Pietro 50:02

Yeah, generally I do, I try and eat, you know, and this is I think you have to practice what you preach. I generally eat very well. And there are days where I don't and there's days where maybe have some crap that day, because that's just how my life is going that day. And I just, I'm starving, and I don't have time to eat something great. But generally I eat well, generally, I try and exercise at least three times a week and I exercise exercise, you know, and I try to meditate, and I have a little meditation device that helps me meditate. Yeah, I mean, I am definitely a practice what you preach. And I and I bring that up. Because a lot of times people say, Oh, it's easy for you, because you know, whatever your thing and, but I need a but I make a very concerted effort. Like, I'm crazy. And I weigh myself every day, I get on the scale every day. And I like my numbers to be within a certain range. And when they're not, I do whatever I need to do to get them back down. Because that's what works for me. But yeah, I truly practice what I preach, I try and have a positive outlook on life. And again, I have days I've got bad eating days, I've got bad mood days, I've got bad everything days. But I think you know, being happy. And I can say this. Now I'm 38 I'm probably the happiest I've ever been in my life. Because I kind of just got this stuff figured out now. So I was giving a lecture to my eighth grade alma mater, which is so cute. And I was giving a speech. And I said in my speech, if it doesn't make you happy, make you money or make you healthy. It's a waste of your time. And that's just the truth, right? You have to go to work to make your money. And you have to, you know, you want to go to the gym because you want to be healthier you eat well, if you want to be healthy. Other than that, if someone or something does not make you happy, probably should get rid of it. Because happiness is truly number one.

Philip Pape 51:48

Yeah, I totally agree. And I mean, you talked about before not being perfect. And just taking the micro steps, taking the little steps along the way. And anyone's listening who's like, Well, yeah, I'm far from what Tiffany is doing today. It doesn't matter you are where you are, like, just start taking those steps going forward.

Dr. Tiffany Di Pietro 52:03

I'd say honey, my life seven years ago was a hot mess Express. So I you know, you gotta all have to improve that. You got to take those baby steps. But then once you get there, it's almost like that sense of like Nirvana and enlightening. Like, I can't imagine getting there again. Because once you get it kind of figured out what's important and not important in your life and not even talking to be like when you go around people and you're just feel their negative energy. Like just, you gotta go, they gotta go. I've gotten rid of people. Like, I don't have anything bad to say about you. You just can't be around you anymore.

Philip Pape 52:32

Yeah, no, I can totally relate. I'm all about positivity. That's yeah, some people get sick of it. And I'm like, Well, you're not in my sphere anymore. I'm just getting. That's a yooper. Is that me, bro? Yeah, exactly. And it's funny because I'm 43 now and I tell people like I got in the best shape of my life when I was 40. So I mean, you know, at any age, you can start it took me forever to start figuring stuff out as well. It's right. Just curious about your exercise three times a week. What are you doing these days? So

Dr. Tiffany Di Pietro 52:55

I actually have it behind me my little total. I'll total okay. I have my total I do that like once or twice a week and then I go to the gym with my husband, although I don't work out with my husband cuz he I jokingly call it his old man workout. He works out people a little bit older than him. It's kind of like their guy time they're working out. It's bullshit. They're not really. But I I go to the gym and I am so I walk it inclines, I'm not a runner. I never have been a runner. Again. Everyone's different, right? Like, I have the body of a runner, you would think I'm a runner, I cannot run. I get side splints and I've never been able to do it. So I walk inclines and I do a lot of high intensity interval training I do I really kind of focus on muscle groups. I do buys fries lunges all that kind of stuff.

Philip Pape 53:38

Cool Awesome. Yeah no the walking yeah I don't like running either. I used to be anti running even in when I talked about not only do you not have to run you don't have to run ever used to be the running kills your gains thing that's that would to the opposite extreme of

Dr. Tiffany Di Pietro 53:53

course. Running does do is it really can if you're especially on a treadmill if you're not running like outside and like terrain it will jack your knees. Oh yeah. Yeah, that heart Yeah, like Yeah, so thinking about the whole picture right? Like okay, well how can I keep my weight off get my cardiovascular and and not like, hurt something else and like, but okay, walking in inclines will do that. Right. So it's just, you know, it's what your individual goals. That's all some people might have a goal of I really want to run a marathon. It's very important to me. I want to do this. Yeah, exactly. I really have that desire. This.

Philip Pape 54:27

Got a video issue again. Oh, all right. So, Tiffany, where can listeners learn more about you and your work? My

Dr. Tiffany Di Pietro 54:33

Instagram? I guess. So my personal one is? Dr. Like Dr. Tiffany D Pietro di p i e TRL. My business one is D Pietro health. And my website is dp MetroHealth. How to think about that D Pietro health.com.

Philip Pape 54:51

All right, Dr. Devaney, D Pietro at D petrol health and D Pietro health.com. I will put those all in the show notes. So let's They're just gonna find you. And this has been an awesome conversation. I'm glad I'm glad we met you came on here. I love your positivity, and so much wisdom. Keep doing what you're doing. And thanks again for coming on.

Dr. Tiffany Di Pietro 55:08

Thanks for having me.

Philip Pape 55:09

Philip Pape 5/21/24 Philip Pape 5/21/24

Ep 174: Q&A - Partial Reps for More Muscle, Too Much Cardio for Fat Loss, Lose Weight Not Muscle

Do you feel stuck in a weight loss rut? Do you want to maximize fat loss without sacrificing muscle gains? Are you confused about whether partial reps are worth it or just a waste of time? Philip answers questions from Jonathan and Matt. They were curious about optimizing training and nutrition for fat loss and muscle growth. You’ll discover whether incorporating partial reps can effectively build more muscle mass and how to do so intelligently in your training routine. Additionally, Philip dives into the ideal amount and type of cardio to maximize fat loss without compromising your hard-earned gains. Plus, you’ll learn proven strategies for overcoming weight loss plateaus while preserving lean muscle tissue.

Do you feel stuck in a weight loss rut? Do you want to maximize fat loss without sacrificing muscle gains? Are you confused about whether partial reps are worth it or just a waste of time?

Today, Philip (@witsandweights) shares excellent questions from Jonathan and Matt in the Fanlist voice message inbox. They were curious about optimizing training and nutrition for fat loss and muscle growth. You’ll discover whether incorporating partial reps can effectively build more muscle mass and how to do so intelligently in your training routine. Additionally, Philip dives into the ideal amount and type of cardio to maximize fat loss without compromising your hard-earned gains. Plus, you’ll learn proven strategies for overcoming weight loss plateaus while preserving lean muscle tissue.

If you’d like to have your question answered on a future episode and receive a shout-out, you can either leave a voice message in the Fanlist inbox or send a text message.

Today, you’ll learn all about:

2:28 What should I do to break through a weight loss plateau after losing 40 lbs since January? I'm 5'8", currently 220 lbs, lifting 4-5x/week and jogging 3-4x/week. Should I ditch cardio to have more time/energy for lifting? How much more weight is realistic to lose by August without losing muscle?

18:22 What's your opinion on partial reps? Are they beneficial for muscle growth or a waste of time?

31:43 Outro

Episode resources:

Submit a voice message for the next Q&A

Episode summary:

Striking the perfect balance between fat loss and muscle gain is an intricate dance that fitness enthusiasts strive to master. The latest episode of Wits and Weights podcast offers an in-depth exploration of this topic. The podcast begins by dissecting the optimal combination of cardio and strength training, emphasizing the need for a well-rounded routine that promotes not only a leaner physique but also cardiovascular health. The conversation then pivots to NEAT—non-exercise activity thermogenesis—and its critical role in daily calorie expenditure, highlighting the often-overlooked activities that can contribute significantly to weight loss.

Jonathan's weight loss journey is presented as a case study, providing listeners with a real-life example of the challenges and triumphs associated with balancing fat loss and muscle maintenance. The episode stresses the importance of adjusting strategies as one progresses in their fitness journey, noting that what works at the start may not be as effective as the body adapts and changes. Moreover, the podcast touches upon the nuanced approach required when entering different phases of fitness, such as when to take a diet break or pivot to a muscle-building focus.

The conversation takes a deep dive into the art of partial reps in weight training, addressing listener Matt's query about their efficacy for muscle growth. Partial reps, characterized by a shorter range of motion than full reps, are examined for their ability to handle heavier loads, target weak points, and maintain constant muscle tension. Despite these benefits, the episode acknowledges that partial reps should complement, rather than replace, full range of motion exercises for overall muscle development.

As the discussion unfolds, practical advice is dispensed on how to intelligently incorporate partial reps into one's regime. The importance of maintaining proper form, avoiding ego lifting, and ensuring progressive overload, even with partial reps, is underscored. The episode then rounds off with a conversation about heart health and body image, connecting physical fitness with the broader context of health and societal perceptions.

Listeners are encouraged to follow the podcast for ongoing fitness wisdom and are reminded that the journey to a stronger self is ongoing and requires a commitment to adaptation and learning. The podcast episode, rich in actionable advice and grounded in fitness principles, is a valuable resource for anyone looking to enhance their physique and overall well-being.

In conclusion, the episode serves as a reminder that the journey to a leaner, stronger self is a complex one, fraught with potential pitfalls but also ripe with opportunity for growth and self-discovery. By adhering to principle-based fitness strategies and remaining adaptable to the body's changing needs, individuals can achieve their fitness goals without sacrificing health or succumbing to burnout. Whether you're just starting out or looking to break through a plateau, Wits and Weights provides the knowledge and inspiration to forge ahead on the path to physical self-mastery.

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Transcript

Philip Pape 00:00

Is cardio killing your gains installing fat loss? Could partial reps be the key to packing on more muscle? In this q&a episode we answer listener voice messages about optimizing fat loss without sacrificing your hard earned muscle. The ideal cardio strategy for your goals, the truth about partial reps and proven tactics to break through plateaus while sculpting your dream physique. Welcome to the wit's end weights podcast. I'm your host, Philip pape, and this twice a week podcast is dedicated to helping you achieve physical self mastery by getting stronger. Optimizing your nutrition and upgrading your body composition will uncover science backed strategies for movement, metabolism, muscle and mindset with a skeptical eye on the fitness industry so you can look and feel your absolute best. Let's dive right in. Within weights community Welcome to another solo episode of The Whitson weights podcast in our last episode 173 Why mindset alone won't solve your food and hormone struggles with Tanya Shaw, we explore the limitations of the mind over matter mentality and how combining mindset with an understanding of body science is key to not just achieving but loving your health results. You even learn how thoughts and emotions affected our body's functions, especially hormones, and some simple techniques to help you actually shift your mindset to better support your health goals. Today for Episode 174, we have a q&a. The title is partial reps for more muscle, too much cardio for fat loss, lose weight, not muscle. And we've got a couple of great questions submitted to our fan list voice message inbox. From Jonathan and Matt about optimizing your training and nutrition for fat loss and muscle growth. You'll discover whether partial reps can be an effective tool for building more muscle mass, and how to incorporate them intelligently into your training. We'll also dive into the ideal amount and type of cardio for maximizing fat loss without sacrificing your hard earned gains. Plus, you'll learn proven strategies for breaking through weight loss plateaus while preserving lean muscle tissue. Now if you'd like me to answer a question on a future episode and give you a shout out, you can either leave a voice message on our fanless inbox or send a text message. Both links are in the show notes. Again, you can just leave a voice message. It's through fan list, the click the link is in the show notes or sent a text message straight to the show. That's a one way text message with your privacy protected. And we are now going to jump right into the q&a. And I'm going to play for you the audio of the two questions. So our first question comes from Jonathan in Las Vegas. Let's take a listen.

Jonathan 02:38

Hi, my name is Jonathan and I come from Las Vegas. I just found your show within the last week. Lots of great tips so far. Anyway, I started losing weight back in January as New Year's resolution because I'm going to be 40 in August. I'm five, eight, I started off at 260 pounds. And now in May, I'm down to 220. I lift weights about four to five times a week. I try jogging about three or four times a week. I'm counting my calories. They're working great so far. But now I'm hitting a plateau. If I increase the running, I just don't have enough time. And then I'm too tired to lift on those days. I don't know if I should ditch the cardio altogether, because I heard that it can be done without it. I really don't know. But I just need to figure out how to make the most of my time. And I also heard if I'm losing too fast, I could lose muscle, which I don't want. So I just need a way to maybe try to lose 20 more pounds by August, or I don't know what would be realistic. Anyways, any advice would be greatly appreciated. Thanks. Awesome.

Philip Pape 03:53

Well, first of all, Jonathan, massive congratulations on that progress. So far doing this on your own. You're asking all the right questions and providing me just the right amount of context to understand what some of the things that could be going on to give you at least some, you know, principle based guidance here that I think anyone listening can benefit from. But you started in January as a New Year's resolution. Here's an example where you use the resolution to commit and you stayed committed, and you did the right things over time. And we're consistent to get to this point, which is awesome, right? Because people criticize New Year's resolutions all the time. And it's usually simply because people try to do too much all at once, and then they fail. And then we you know, we blame resolutions in your case, you used it as a driver as a motivator. And then you started to take action, and you're doing a bunch of the right things. And there's some other things that could probably be tweaked here and there and remember that as you go through a long process like this with a decent amount of fat to lose, you can always apply the exact same strategies throughout the entire process. You can definitely the same principles but the strategies will have to change based on your biofeedback and your results and your app. adaptation and all of that. So we're going to drill down into each of these things that I, hopefully I remember them all from the question. But again, 40 pounds in about four to five months, that is about two pounds a week, if I have that, right, that's like, maybe not quite 1% of your body weight a week, but we always talk about 1% per week being the limit above which you tend to start losing muscle mass. Now for bigger guys, like you, you have a little more flexibility and fat to work with, you have some fat storage, that actually helps you, right, and we can look, reframe that as a positive thing, because it's extra calories that your body can draw on. Because you're not very lean to begin with. And so it gives you the ability to go more aggressive at the beginning, and still potentially even build some muscle while you're losing fat. So, you know, that's, that's awesome, right? It's a testament to the consistency and hard work with everything you're doing. And I know it probably hasn't been easy either. But you're doing awesome. And you're you're almost where you want to be, at least for this visit this first phase. Now you talked about hitting a weight plateau, which plateau is a kind of a dirty word sometimes, right? We use it to mean like things aren't moving anymore. And so now I need to crank up the movement, or I need to crank down the calories to push to the plateau. When in reality, oftentimes, even if you feel like you're doing all the right things, there's a piece of that, that we don't fully understand until we have all the data. And it might be that you're building muscle and losing fat at the same time, it might be that you're getting more stressed or less sleep. And it might simply be because as you've lost all his weight, this 40 pounds, you've experienced metabolic adaptation, you've experienced it in a few ways. First is the traditional reason because you are your hormones are responding to the lack of energy, and down regulating everything making you more efficient, right, and you saw you burn fewer calories, but you've also lost a ton of weight. And so you simply are moving around less mass, and that requires fewer calories. So I suspect that your expenditure has dropped drop drop drop that whole time, you say that your calorie tracking, but you didn't mention whether you're tracking your metabolic rate or your expenditure. Because, you know, whatever intake you started with, right, let's say you calculated that you burn at the beginning 3500 calories, and you wanted to go into 1000 calorie deficit to lose two pounds a week, you know, 1000 calories a day to lose two pounds a week. And so you said I'm going to eat 2500 calories. Well as your body adapts, and that 3500 expenditure drops. If you keep eating 2500 calories, the weight loss rate will slow down, right the deficit will get smaller. So you have to keep that intake up with your deficit. Now, you've had decent progress, which tells me that you have been keeping up with that, or, or your metabolism hasn't dropped that much. And I've seen this with clients who are on the bigger size where especially male clients who are detained are really lift heavy, you know, consistently they train well. And sometimes I'll find that once they're training well, and walking and doing all those things, and eating a bunch of protein, their metabolism might actually level off and increase right, which is crazy to think about, but it happens. So unless I have that history of yours, I don't know. And one you've probably heard me talk about macro factor on the show. I don't know if you're already using it. But if you're not go right now and download macro factor, enter my code Whitsun weights all one word, get the free two week trial from that, start using it backdate or retroactively enter your last, like 20 or 30 days of calories per day that you ate, and your scale weight so that it can update its algorithm more quickly. And then you'll know what is my expenditure, so that I can break through that quote unquote, plateau going forward. So once you've got that set up, now we have some numbers to work with. And some accuracy we can target. Now you said your five, eight, your 220 pounds. All right. So I'm five, nine, and I'm 180. And some people call me you know, a skinny guy that needs to gain weight, but just put it in perspective, like the dudes that I work with people who lift you know, muscle mass body composition, you're probably not that far from a really good body composition and leanness than you think even, you know, you said you have a lot of room to lose, do you want to lose 20 more pounds? Maybe, right? We don't know for sure that 200 is a magic number, you could get down to two or five to 10. And realize, hey, this is actually a great place to be and I don't want to continue, like really trying to push it because of what it takes. Or you can be like nah, I want to get down to you know, 190 and that's that's my goal, because I want to get to a certain level of leanness or a certain look. And then you'll go into muscle building phase. So that is up to you and your goals. Jonathan, I would say on average somebody who's 225 Eight, yeah, they're probably a little bit higher in the body fat percentage, you know, territory, and getting down to say 200 or 190. We'll put them closer to that 15% ish, you know, 15 to 20% you're probably a decent amount above 20%. But as you get leaner Are, we had to take a little bit more moderate approach because you don't have that excess fat, we don't want to stall out, we don't want to just be too low with the energy and the carbs for your lifting sessions, and all of that stuff, right, it's just it gets a little bit more tricky. And we have to be a little more conservative. So first, I would make sure that your nutrition is dialed in. You didn't give me any details on that. But you did say you're counting calories. So again, get macro factor. So not only seeing your calories, but you get evidence based targets for your macro goals, based on your target weight goal. So let's say your target weight is 190 or 200, I think you said it's 200. All right, you want to be the in about 200 grams of protein, another 30% or so calories from fat and the rest of the carbs. If your macros are anywhere off of that it could affect your performance, it could affect your muscle mass loss, or preservation and things like that your energy and so on. So we're, you know, for guy like you, I'm thinking around 200 grams of protein per day, about 30% from fat. And that's going to depend on how many calories you're eating, and then the rest from carbs. For the rate of loss, you've been hitting about point 8.9% your body weight, you could conceivably go up to that same rate for the remaining 20 pounds. So at 220. That's, let's say on the upper end, two pounds a week 1000 calorie deficit a day. And that would get you the 20 pounds in 10 weeks. So I would say in terms of realistic, yeah, totally realistic. And because you're still still bigger, so have a little weight to lose. I think the flexibility is there, as long as you're not feeling like it's depriving you so much that you're starting to get food obsessed. For example, if you want a more moderate approach, and you're happy with like 10 to 15 pounds, I would say that was more reasonable and super sustainable, right. And that would put you at, like 500 to 750 calorie deficit a day. In terms of cardio, alright, you mentioned you jog like three or four times a week, I don't know how much walking or steps you get. Besides that, I definitely wouldn't ditch it completely. If it's a routine for you. I think it's great. You know, for heart health, it can be helpful with recovery in assists, it can assist a little bit with fat loss. But if you feel like it's burning you out, it's impairing your performance, you don't have enough time, it's just too much, you can definitely reduce it. And I don't think it's going to make a huge difference. As long as your overall movement and activity is not dropping that much. Like in terms of your step count. So if you go from like, you know, 20,000, subsidy down to 8000 subsidy that can make a difference. But if you go from like 15 to 12, it may not make a big difference. And in fact, you might notice it actually reduces some of the stress on your body, and helps you continue that fat loss and feel a little better. Keep in mind also, if you lower the rate of loss to be a little more conservative, you wouldn't need that extra activity necessarily, because you're kind of making up for it in the food department, you know, you're eating more food, or I shouldn't say you're eating more food, you're you might be eating the same amount of food, but you don't need to burn as much energy because the deficit is smaller, if that makes sense. And then I would say like your priority should be your strength training, right? That's the key to maintaining your muscle while you lean down, focusing on those heavy lifts, the compound lifts pushing for progressive overload. I don't know what your split looks like, I'm assuming it's solid. But I would you know, if I were your coach I would take a look at that makes sure the lifting sessions themselves aren't too long and too much during the week. You might think it's sacrilegious for me to say this, but if you're doing too much in the lifting department for volume, that might have to come down to allow you to recover while the cardio and the walking stays the same. You know, it's you never know it depends on how you feel. And this is where tracking your biofeedback, your hunger, your digestion, your sleep, your energy recovery, your mood. And then tying that to the changes that you make is going to be very helpful. Now aside from lifting and like formal cardio, we talk about neat non exercise Activity Thermogenesis which is like all the walking, the fidgeting, the cleaning, doing chores, and that's where again, I look for what is your step count right now, that plus cardio if the total stays in that 10 to 14k range that's really really solid. It really saw even if it is just from walking, instead of from jogging, for example, because the jogging really could be hindering a little bit of the recovery, maybe maybe you might be adapted to it. And if you have good form, it may not be that much of an issue. All right. So to recap, I know threw a lot at you, you know tighten up nutrition, make sure you're tracking with macro factor, make sure the protein is up there, go for the as aggressive a calorie deficit that's sustainable for you, but not too aggressive. reallocate some of the energy from cardio if needed, so you can crush it in the weight room and get those you know, not just the gains, but the preserving your muscle. You know, look at your meat in terms of your step count and get it into that like 10 12k range, and then go at the right rate of loss and adjust your calories and macros each week. If you use a macro factor that's automatic, where you shouldn't be hitting plateaus at that point. Now, as of the time of this episode, 20 pounds by August is about 10 weeks away. So that's two pounds a week. And that's, I'll say aggressive, but within the norm within the range of realistic, and again may not be ideal if you're feeling a bit rundown. So you got to think about those. And by the way, you can follow up with me directly, you can either send a text, or reach out to me on Instagram at Whitson weights. Jonathan, if you want to follow up with some more details, let me know you heard this and what you're doing, we can even give an update to the community. I think that's all I wanted to cover for that. Oh, yeah. The other thing is, if you get down to like 205, to 10, even if you don't get all the way to the 200, and it's August, September timeframe, you're probably in a great position then, to go to maintenance for a while, if not into a very lean muscle building phase all through the fall and winter months, the perfect time to be eating more food, right, you can jack up the calories back up that by the 750 or 1000 calories you are missing out on. Right, it might be at a lower rate than you started because you're so much lighter, but it'll still be a lot more calories, help your metabolism recover. And just just feel great in the gym and everywhere else for a while. And take this nice long diet break is effectively what it is I break a guy like us trying to lose like 60 pounds. Normally, I would recommend breaks and refeeds be built in anyway. So that's the only other piece I didn't mention is I know you want to get to this number by August. But one other approaches, you can just go at a slow roll fit in some diet breaks and maintenance for like a week or two and really extend it out but not ever feel like you're really dieting that hard. That's the other approach. If you missed my episode on how fast should I lose weight for fat loss that came out recently. Check that one out because I described the different scenarios for you. And it might give you some more ideas as well. Anyone else listening. So consistency, man, trusting that process showing up like you're doing you're gonna get the result. I'm very excited for you. This is what it's all about. Enjoying that journey, keep up and keep that momentum up and you'll come out the other side, you know, a leaner, meaner version of yourself.

Philip Pape 17:03

Hey, this is Philip and I hope you're enjoying this episode of Whitson weights. I started with some weights to help ambitious individuals in their 30s 40s and beyond, who want to build muscle lose fat and finally look like they lift. I noticed that when people transform their physique, they not only look and feel better, but they also experience incredible changes in their health, confidence and overall quality of life. If you're listening to this podcast, I assume you want the same thing to build your ultimate physique and unlock your full potential. Whether you're just starting out or looking to take your progress to the next level. That's why I created wits and weights physique University, a semi private group coaching experience designed to help you achieve your best physique ever. With a personalized done for you nutrition plan, custom designed courses, new workout programs each month, live coaching calls and a supportive community, you'll have access to everything you need to succeed. If you're ready to shatter your plateaus and transform your body and life, head over to Whitsun weights.com/physique or click the link in the show notes to enroll today. Again, that's Whitson weights.com/physique. I can't wait to welcome you to the community and help you become the strongest leanest and healthiest version of yourself. Now back to the show. Alright, so that was the first question. Second question comes from Matt. He asks about partial reps, and whether they're actually useful for building muscle, and I'm gonna play his audio in a second. But I will say this is a super common question these days, both partial and long length partials. And there's a lot of debate around it in the fitness industry. So let's just take a listen to Matt's audio and then we'll break it down.

Matt 18:45

My question is about partial reps. I've heard a lot of conflicting, conflicting things about partials. Some people say they're great for muscle growth, stimulate muscle growth. Some people say they're not. What's your opinion on partials? Should I avoid them? Don't waste time, or are they beneficial after all? Thanks, podcast is awesome. My name is Matt Roberts. Thanks, Bunny.

Philip Pape 19:10

Alright, so I wanted to play his audio for two reasons. One, the accent from across the pond. We love that here. And the other is, you know, the shout out about how awesome the podcast is, which can never stroke my ego enough. But in all seriousness, Matt, very good question. I don't know that I've covered partial reps in any great detail on the show, other than some discussions with I think Brian Borstein. So go back and find his interview. And I wouldn't did i i think he's the only guy I've ever talked about it with. Not even a nd Baker. I'm not sure we even got into partial reps. But anyway, again, appreciate the kind words in the great question. It's a polarizing topic. Some people swear by them. I know trainers who are like, yeah, all they do is partials these days, like long length partials and it's working great for me. Other people say now they're useless. As with most things, the truth is in the middle. So let's define first what we mean by partial reps, such as some people case people are like, What the heck are you talking about? A partial rep is what it sounds like. It's a repetition that uses a shorter range of motion than a full rep. Now I'm gonna trigger some people here because squats, the right way to squat, when you do a normal full range squat is below parallel. And there are a lot of people that don't squat to depth, they will squat an inch above parallel or even much higher than that. And to me, that is a partial squat, even if you think you're going all the way down. So that's one thing I want to get out of the way. I know that's what you're not asking about, Matt, I'm sure you're like, super dialed in with all your form, and you know exactly how to execute partial versus full reps. But just in case, I'm putting it out there, that like a half or a quarter squat, that is a partial rep where you don't go all the way into full depth. Another example would be benchpress lockouts, where you're not coming down all the way to your chest. And by the way, partial reps can go both directions. So like if you had some pins set up, and you set up the bar for benchpress, really low, close to your chest, on pins, and then you did pin presses, those are partials as well, right, because you're not, you're starting at the bottom and you're not going, you're not going all the way down to the chest. So there's different ways to look at it, you can look at it from both sides of the range of motion, the top half of a bicep curl, but also the bottom half of the bicep curl, right? That's long, that's the lengthen partial. So that's what a partial rep is. And the argument for them is they allow you to handle heavier loads. That's one argument like, oh, well, I'm shortening the range of motion. So I can go heavier, right. And I can target weak points and lift. For example, if you think of a rack pole, that's like a partial deadlift, that's what it is to partial range of motion deadlift. And you can go a lot heavier on a rack pole, than you could on a deadlift, and target just part of the musculature, which has some validity as an accessory as a support as a variant, right. Another argument is that they maintain constant tension on the muscle. Now, this is the idea that if you're simply kind of speeding up the movement, and sticking within a small range, like imagine bicep curls from the top, and you bring them down just a few inches, you come up and down, up and down, and you're constantly maintaining that tension. Another good example, you ever done lying tricep extensions. And one way I like to do them is I, I at the top, I don't lock out vertically, I actually lock out with some load hanging out, right, the moment arm hanging behind me a bit and keeping tension on there. That's kind of a bodybuilding thing. And so partial reps allow you to do that in different creative ways as well. It's same thing with like the lengthen partials, right, if you think of lengthen partial squats, you're going all the way down to the bottom, you're pushing up, but you're not getting past that lockout point. And then you're going back down again, that can create a lot of tension during that time, you're never really relaxing, you're never getting that load off of you at the lockout, it also can help you get in some extra volume after you get to failure with full reps. So again, lengthen partials. For example, if you've exhausted the muscle with the full range, now you can do some more and lengthen range. And some people see that as a nice way to get in some more volume, where otherwise you will be completely fatigued. And again, there is some validity there as well. All of these things could theoretically lead to more muscle growth, if they're done in an intelligent way to supplement in my opinion, to supplement mostly full rom movements, but there's definitely a place for them. Now, the drawback is that they don't train the full range of motion, right. And full ROM is generally considered superior for overall muscle development for your movement patterns for your strength gains, and then even functionality. And again, I hate to use the word functional. But when we talk about squats, doing the full squat, engaging all the musculature as the human body was designed, right, same thing with pressing, same thing with pulling, getting the full raw movements in there, at a minimum, I think is essential for people. That doesn't mean you can't do variation. So for example, you don't have to deadlift you could do say Romanian deadlifts, right, you might have some limitations, you might have some fatigue that causes you to avoid certain movements, whatever. But I'm talking about full rom versus partial. So full rom ensures that you're strengthening the muscle through the complete contraction and the stretch, not just one portion of it. And we know that is associated with positive hypertrophy outcomes, right muscle development outcomes, as well as strength. If you have a training plan, I would say you know, increasing your weight, your volume reps, whatever progressive overload, right? We call it through full rom lifts. That should be the foundation that should be the foundation I think I even put a quick quiz out recently called compound lifts as the foundation of your training or whatever, and I'm talking about full rom lifts. But I do think partials can serve as a useful tool. So for example, some exercises would be done with a modified ROM for safety or to target the prime movers more effectively. I mentioned rappels right? Block deadlifts or what do you call them like nuts stiff legged deadlifts. But I'm losing my mind here. But instead of full deadlifts, you have the you have the bar raised. So it's either raised on some blocks, or pads or up on pins, right? It's raised above where it's higher than the ground, instead of full full deadlifts. So effectively, that's what a rack pole is. But a rack pulls in a much higher version of that with a rack pole, you could be right below the knee, or maybe right above the knee, and that that range, board presses or floor presses. And in fact, board presses are the one where you can get a little a device that goes on the bar that prevents the bar from coming all the way down. That can be really good. If you have wonky shoulders, like I've noticed, doing both paused bench presses and pin presses where my shoulder doesn't fully extend. So I'm not getting the full range is helpful. But remember, it depends on what you're trying to train. If you're not trying to train the shoulders with your benchpress and you're really focused on the pecs, then you could do these partials you could even just do inclines for that matter, right and do different movements altogether. And then do shoulder specific movements for your shoulder. So you could definitely get creative. And in this case, the partial ROM is intentional. It's not like getting lazy, like a you partial squatters out there that you need to go to fold up. And I don't mean to call you lazy, you may not be aware, this is where form checks and having a coach and being in a community and all that can help Whitson weights physique University come join us. It could also be the result of ego lifting guys guys out there ego lifting, where you start to do cheater raps, partial reps, the whole deal. I see this a lot with isolation movements, especially. However, I also see them with things like the overhead press, okay, the overhead press, you've got to get your head out of the way, you've got to have that vertical bar path. And then at the top, you've got to have that full shrug at the top. If you're not doing a full shrug, we're talking, push that button, don't just tap it, push that button up into the ceiling, then it's a partial ROM, it's not a full rom press. So some of you may be thinking you're doing full rom movements, and you're getting partials. And you're hearing this episode, like, Oh, I've got some opportunity there. I don't know if that's you met. But I wanted to pull that out. Because this answer I'm giving you is going to be much more comprehensive than maybe you thought. And that's what we do here on Whitson weights. All right. partials can also be strategically used to blast through sticking points. So let's say you're struggling with your benchpress lockout. That's where you could throw in some heavy partial reps in the top half of the movement, using accommodating resistance, right chains, bands, a slingshot, a lot of guys in my lifting community know what I'm talking about. That's a way to assist part of the movement. And so you're effectively making it a partial rom because you're not fully loading the entire ROM. And in fact, bands in general, in different movements can help with that. Like if you want to do deadlifts with a band, for example, you're you're adding more load to part of the ROM. And so that's form of a partial, if you allow me that definition. Let's see another scenario, I think partials can be helpful is if you want to accumulate extra, what we call metabolic stress at the end of a set, right extra fatigue. So let's say you hit failure on I don't know, dumbbell lateral raises, right? 12 reps. Once you and you can't get up and you know, you can't bring all you can't bring your arm all the way up. Well, you do partial reps and you can still get that burn and that stimulus that pumping the shoulder by getting those extra partials. They're kind of like cheater reps. But you've already done the work you intended. Now you're just like torching those medial delts. And getting this extra constant tension. Think of the extreme of this being one single rep where you're just holding it there, and it starts to burn, right? You get what I'm saying? You know, and the idea here is you still have to go pretty heavy at that point because you're doing a partial. So as a general guideline, Matt, I'd say partial reps can be a tool in the toolbox, but not the main, the main course of the main tool, right and here's I'm going to recap everything I just said because I went on a whole bunch of what I thought were very exciting tangents that I hope you found interesting, but I'm going to recap for you. Number one stick to fall ROM for the majority of your training, we're talking probably 80 to 90% of your training, especially the main compound lifts, used partial sparingly on isolation and accessory movements like lat raises tricep pushdowns, leg extensions, curls, etc. Number three, sprinkle them in toward the end of a workout if you want to as an intensity technique, or if you want to eke out some extra volume on a lagging body part number four, make sure you're controlling the eccentric, that you're pausing in the contracted position and you're keeping that constant tension. Okay, even even when you're doing partial, you want to make it a deliberate, objectively measurable range of motion so that you can actually progress that rom number five, don't ego lift, don't sacrifice form just to lift more weights with partials. And number six track your partial rep sets. and aim to progress over time like you would with full rank, just what I mentioned. Make it objective. All right, Matt, hopefully that helps provide what I think is a pretty comprehensive and balanced take on partial reps. If you use them intelligently, you use them. You know, in moderation, I'll say I think they can be a valuable addition to, like both physique and strength focus programs, I think they can help. But they're like the icing on the cake right there the gravy as they say. So when in doubt, prioritize full rom progressive overload. And that's really gonna move the needle long term. You don't have to do partials, but that can be a lot of fun. Okay, so that was two questions answered in great detail. We covered a lot of ground, plateaus, fat loss, muscle retention, cardio, neat partials. Remember that this is principles that we talk about here, there's no one size fits all. The reason my answers tend to be on the longer side, rather than just rapid fire is because there are a lot of events, there are a lot of things to think about for what works best for you, your lifestyle, there's trial and error, there's, there's experimentation that you need to do, and then be consistent for a while with the thing you're testing out to get the result or not. And that feedback feeds back to the next experiment. So you know, for Jonathan, right, my advice is, more or less, stay the course and trust the process, but start to dial in some things. Dial in his tracking, use macro factor, balance out his activity for recovery, and all of that, and he's trending in the right direction. So he's winning, he's winning, right? That's an inspiration to all of us. And then for Matt, and anyone else, wondering about partial reps, use them widely. They can help you smash your sticking points, get a killer pump, and they shouldn't comprise the bulk of your training, right? You're not going to go wrong. Prioritizing heavy compound lifts with good form. And sprinkling in the partials, you know, is sort of cherry on top. So if you've got a question you want me to answer in a future episode like this, you can either leave a voice message on our fan list inbox, or send a text message. Both of those links are in the show notes. And Whitson waits busy University continues to be open for enrollment as well. If you're looking for personalized guidance for some of these types of questions, where we can dig in with your actual numbers, your plan your life and figure out how it works. I'm always going to mention that here that the link is available in the show notes if you want to check it out. And if you're not sure, you can always reach out to me Instagram at Whitson weights, send a text message, email me whatever all the ways. Alright, in our next episode 175. The big is beautiful movement, obesity and heart health with Dr. Tiffany DiPietro. We discuss some of the myths surrounding heart disease, like the idea that it's only a man's disease or you must have symptoms to have a problem. Tiffany is going to share her best practices for nutrition and exercise to maintain a healthy heart and effective ways to prevent cardiovascular issues. And then we step into the minefield of the big is beautiful movement by asking the question Can big also be healthy. Make sure please right now hit follow hit follow hit follow in your podcast app to get notified when that episode comes out. And you will be supporting the show by doing that. As always, stay strong. And I'll talk to you next time here on the wits end weights podcast.

Philip Pape 33:14

Philip Pape 5/17/24 Philip Pape 5/17/24

Ep 173: Why Mindset Alone Won't Solve Your Food and Hormone Struggles with Tanja Shaw

Are you feeling overwhelmed? Are you ready for a life change? Discover when mindset isn’t enough and the secret to supercharging it for your health goals. Philip welcomes Tanja Shaw, a seasoned Functional Health Coach, Kinesiologist, and weight loss expert, to share a unique perspective on mindset: the idea that mindset is NOT everything. This challenges the popular belief that mindset is everything. They explore the limitations of the “mind over matter” approach and advocate for a balanced strategy that integrates mental and physical health. You’ll learn how thoughts and emotions impact hormonal balance and discover practical techniques to shift your mindset.

Are you feeling overwhelmed? Are you ready for a life change? Discover when mindset isn’t enough and the secret to supercharging it for your health goals.

Today, Philip (@witsandweights) brings on Tanja Shaw, a seasoned Functional Health Coach, Kinesiologist, and weight loss expert dedicated to helping women overcome their struggles with food and achieve a healthy weight without obsession. Tanja owns Ascend Fitness + Lifestyle in Chilliwack, BC, and is the voice behind the popular Fit + Vibrant You Podcast.

Philip invited Tanja to share a unique perspective on mindset: the idea that mindset is NOT everything. This challenges the popular belief that mindset is everything. They explore the limitations of the “mind over matter” approach and advocate for a balanced strategy that integrates mental and physical health. You’ll learn how thoughts and emotions impact hormonal balance and discover practical techniques to shift your mindset.

Tanja brings a wealth of knowledge from her hands-on experience with functional lab testing, personalized wellness protocols, and mindset coaching. She helps her clients thrive by addressing not just what they do but how they think and what they believe about themselves and the world.

Find out why mindset isn’t everything and how combining it with an understanding of body science is key to not just achieving but LOVING your health results.

Today, you’ll learn all about:

2:44 Definition and relevance of "mind over matter" in health and fitness
7:19 Practical techniques for mindset shifts
22:58 Impact of thoughts and emotions on hormonal balance
33:27 Mindset strategies to change and improve stress
39:17 The benefits and disadvantages of having an optimism bias
44:05 Where is mindset alone insufficient
47:28 Predictive biomarkers in functional lab testing and their impact on mindset coaching
49:07 The role of outdoor activities in promoting mental and physical well-being
52:38 The question Tanja wished Philip had asked
53:18 Where to reach Tanja
53:45 Outro

Episode resources:

Podcast: Fit + Vibrant You
Website: tanjashaw.com/
Instagram: @tanja_shaw
Facebook: www.fb.com/tanjashaw

Episode summary:

Navigating the interplay between mindset, health, and functional well-being is an art that has been profoundly discussed in the recent episode of Wits & Weights featuring Tanja Shaw. The conversation highlighted the importance of a balanced approach that aligns the mental and physical aspects of health, a concept that resonates deeply with listeners seeking a sustainable and healthy lifestyle. Tanja Shaw, with her extensive experience as a functional health coach and weight loss expert, brought to light the significance of understanding how our thoughts and emotions directly impact our hormones and overall physiological state. This connection emphasizes that achieving health and fitness goals requires more than sheer willpower; it involves a harmonious blend of mindset and actionable wellness strategies.

In a personal reflection, the host, Philip Pape, shared his transformation from an intense workout and macro tracking enthusiast to a more mindful health and fitness mentor. This shift in perspective is particularly relevant for women in midlife who are often seeking ways to balance determination with self-compassion. Morning energy levels, simplifying lifestyle modifications, and avoiding quick fixes were discussed as crucial factors in setting the stage for a long-term mindset shift and sustained vitality.

The episode further delved into the relationship between our thoughts, eating habits, and their physiological counterparts. Insights from clients and the potency of stress management techniques were shared, illustrating the transformative power of cultivating a balanced and optimistic mindset. The chapter on navigating life's challenges with optimism and realism stood out as a testament to the resilience we can harness even when faced with life's most difficult moments.

The discussion rounded out with a critical examination of the limitations of a mindset-focused approach. It underscored that altering our environment or circumstances might be necessary for genuine progress and that sometimes, our over-reliance on mindset can lead to ignoring our bodies' signals or staying in unhealthy situations. The role of lab tests and biomarkers in tailoring individual health strategies was also touched upon, reinforcing the idea that personalized care is essential for optimal well-being.

The episode ended with a poignant reminder that the journey to health is continuous, and there is no final destination. It is a day-to-day commitment to growth, self-improvement, and adaptation. This mindset of perpetual progression is what leads to true and lasting well-being. As we navigate our health journeys, it's essential to remember that balance, resilience, and a reality-checked optimism are our guideposts to a life of health and happiness.

The detailed insights shared by Tanja Shaw in this podcast episode provide a wealth of knowledge for anyone looking to enhance their understanding of how to align their mindset with their health goals effectively. By addressing the nuances of functional well-being and resilience, this conversation serves as a valuable resource for those seeking to optimize their health and embrace a life of vitality and strength.

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Transcript

Tanja Shaw 00:00

When we have a thought, we think oh like now it's an urge. Now it's a craving I must have the banana bread, but it's just a thought and it's such a simple way just to neutralize it. So if you don't feel always armed with a way to like rebuttal the thought or to replace the thought then simply just neutralizing it can be helpful.

Philip Pape 00:18

Welcome to the wit's end weights podcast. I'm your host, Philip pape, and this twice a week podcast is dedicated to helping you achieve physical self mastery by getting stronger, optimizing your nutrition and upgrading your body composition will uncover science backed strategies for movement, metabolism, muscle and mindset with a skeptical eye on the fitness industry so you can look and feel your absolute best. Let's dive right in Whitson weights community Welcome to another episode of The Whitson weights Podcast. Today, I'm excited to welcome Tanya Shaw, a seasoned functional health coach Kinesiologist and weight loss expert dedicated to helping women overcome their struggles with food and achieve a healthy weight without the obsession, Tanya and I met through podcasting. And she's coming on here to talk about mindset today. I'm very excited. She's the owner of ascend Fitness and Lifestyle in Chilliwack, British Columbia and the voice behind the popular fit and vibrant you podcast and that's fit the plus sign vibrant. You go follow it. I had the pleasure of being on that recently. So again, follow her show so you can check all of her great content out and I invite her on today we're going to take a different angle on mindset. The idea that mindset is not everything right? Despite the Pivi claims on motivational social media posts to get in the right mindset. Despite rarely telling you how to do this, many coaches and experts tend to over emphasize the importance of mindset alone. Yet, Tanya advocates for a balanced approach that integrates mental and physical health that we love when everything comes together. So today, we're going to explore the limitations of the mind over matter, mentality. And how combining mindset with an understanding of body science is key to not just achieving but really loving, and living with your health results for a long time to come. You'll even learn how thoughts and emotions affect our bodies, functions, especially hormones, some simple techniques to help you actually shift your mindset to better support your goals. Tanya brings tons of knowledge from her hands on experience with functional lab testing, personalized wellness protocols, and mindset coaching. She helps her clients thrive by addressing not just what they do, but how they think and what they believe about themselves and the world. Learn today why mindset isn't everything, and how combining it with an understanding of body science is key to not just achieving but loving the results. So Tanya, welcome to the show.

Tanja Shaw 02:41

Thank you, thank you so much for having me.

Philip Pape 02:43

So let's just get into the top level question. Here's what is mind over matter, really mean, you know, in the full context of the fitness and health that we're talking about.

Tanja Shaw 02:53

I love what you said about introduction there, Phillip about this idea of those binary thinking as black or white thinking. And social media is great for that. Like we love these topics of like so much out there, you know what progress not perfection, and if you believe that you can achieve it and all these kinds of things that we sometimes like this black or white approach is very binary way of thinking, and mindset really important. Like it really, really is. I think you have this experience, have experience with all your listeners have experienced about going to the gym and doing a workout. And then you kind of get to the point where you're done the workout. And the question is, are you done because your body is actually done? Or is it your mind is done? A you don't want to push yourself I need more. So mindset is really important in so many different areas. But it's not as simple as just being able to fix everything. When I first started in my health and fitness journey as a coach, I was back in 2007, my personal training business. And I was very much on like push hard push her push Harvey like intense workouts, macro tracking, we did low carb, we did all the things. And my clients would get really great results. But they were not able to stick with it. And they had this kind of on again off again relationship with food and it was up and they're, you know, in all the progress and it wasn't until 2015 When I realized that there's something big missing in my coaching programs, and a lot of coaching programs in the fitness industry, which is the mindset piece like how do we think differently? And then I kind of dove really hard into that and thinking like your mindset is everything and you see that on on Facebook as well mindsets, everything. But then you get to this point where Okay, I have this great mindset but my bias is functioning. And I think the biggest issue with mind over matter or like this idea that mindsets. Everything we can kind of will ourselves into things is that sometimes we end up and I see this so much more now that I'm working with women in midlife and beyond through that of hustle journey, that we can also have the tendency to not listen to some really important signals that our bodies are telling us that it's time to rest. Or we have this idea that it's just like oh, I can push push push to the point of burnout. At and to an extreme, if you're always like pushing yourself, we can actually bypass a lot of our emotional needs and when our body actually what we physically need, because we think we should be doing more, we think we should, we're not enough, we think we always need to have the hustle, the grind. And that eventually is going to lead to some of the burnout. And so mindset is absolutely important. But we also have to balance that with actually like supporting the body because they really also go both hand in hand. Another example is, you know, most of us have a pretty strong mindset first thing in the morning, when maybe not like first first thing in the morning, but after a cup of coffee, and a bit of journaling, or meditation or cuddling with your guests or whatever. Because we're rested, right. And then at the evening, this is what most people struggle with food and, and poor decisions. No, seven o'clock eight o'clock at night, because we're depleted. And so we also have to in order to also have a great mindset and and work on like the willpower or whatever we want to call that. You also need to really work on supporting your body and giving your body what your body needs. So that you can have that bandwidth, you can make those better decisions. Yeah, there's

Philip Pape 06:03

so much in there, it's like a spectrum is what I'm hearing that there could be this incongruency between your mind and body at any one time. And if we go too much in one direction, we tend to sacrifice the other you talked about being in the gym, maybe your mind is the weaker component in some cases, and you're giving up too quickly and your body is able to handle it, but your mind is not telling you to keep going. Conversely, maybe you're doing too much. And you have this tendency, like you said you don't listen to your body. You know, we talked on the show a lot about intuition versus data. And it doesn't have to be I don't think it has to be mutually exclusive. Like I think you can take data, you can take how you feel. And then you can push yourself, but then realize you're pushing yourself too far based on how you feel in the data. So I kind of love all of that. Also, you really spoke to me the morning energy thing, I was just thinking this morning, like you get to that peak point. And you're just excited like, Man, if I could feel this way all day, every day, I would just get more done than he could ever imagine. And then, you know, we're recording later in the day, which still have enough energy, but it starts to get where your voice gets worn down, your mind gets worn down your body. I workout in the morning. So like, of course, I'm amped up then. And by the end of the day, I'm just potentially dragging. Okay, so I just wanted to comment all that because I'm sure it's very relatable to folks. So then where does that take us next? Probably to how do we identify maybe that gap, or I collect data about ourselves so that we can listen to our body? Maybe we'll go there.

Tanja Shaw 07:28

Yeah, and I love your point there about this idea. Like it's not one or the other. It's it's really a spectrum. And we have to have both, because how often do we have this idea, we're like, you don't want to, you don't feel like going for a walk, right? Like how often you probably get that from yourself and also others that you work with, like I don't feel like doing something. But then you go and you feel so much better. And so that point like listening to your body is not necessarily helpful. That time because your bodies and your mind and your mind say like no, I don't want to go. But really, it's gonna be a better thing for you. You know, when we think about mindset, and changing your mindset, and overcoming limiting beliefs, and figuring this out for yourself, I think one thing that we really do want to have as humans is we want we like things to be really clear. We like things to be upset. Yep, we like things to be clear, we'd like things to be very fast. And we like things to be like, we'll have that certainty and that speed. And when it comes to changing your mindset or figuring this out, that's what we want. We're like, okay, so give me the five step process, what's the three, three things I need to do to get that, and what we're really building here, and this is a skill that we're gonna keep practicing for the long term is gonna serve us as learning how to have some wisdom. And that means not like reflecting on yourself building awareness, happy the inside reflection, like, you know, what's been going well, what's not been going well. So you can start to discern, like, what's working and what's not, and what's going to be the best steps for you. I think that's a really important thing. And this is one thing that you know, when it comes to the weight getting stronger, we lose the weight, everything we just want, like, Yeah, we love that clarity. We love the do this, and we get this. But that's not the way the body works. When it comes to the the mindset pieces and starting to learn, I think one of the best places to start, just like you do when you are trying to lose weight. And the first things we do for nutrition, is we document it. Like you start to build some awareness I think, for for change your mindset for becoming aware of these patterns, as a wonderful first thing to do is to sort of habits a little bit about build awareness, like what are you thinking? And usually our thoughts drive feelings and actions. And so sometimes we don't know what we're thinking, but then we can start to say like, well, what are the feelings and the actions that I might want to change the behaviors that I want change? And then start to question whether the thoughts that are behind those and what are the thoughts that are driving them? And that's a great place to start with actually starting to quietly it was hard to change things that we don't that we're not aware have, I mean you can do it by accident. But just like in your programs like this is why you measure like your you track food when you're because if you just have no idea what you're doing, it's really hard to make a choice about a better choice. And I think doing a same sort of audit with your way they're thinking can be really important. And really helpful as you start this journey as well. A simple thing to do is like one of the first tools that I use with my clients is we do a food s&p back like journaling. And so you write down because a lot of my clients come to me for weight loss, and we write down like the food that we're eating, but also like the thoughts about it, are you eating because you're hungry or eating because you are bored? Or you're telling yourself that this one little thing doesn't count are all starting in a Monday but starting to become aware of those thoughts. And as frustrating as it is, because a lot of our thoughts are like they tend to be quite repetitive, we tend to have the same patterns, the same kind of thought patterns that tend to derail us more and more often. It's actually not a bad thing, because although it's frustrating, because they seem too repetitive, it's also kind of good, because we only have usually like a handful of different kinds of thoughts that tend to be on replay and review feeding triggers that we need to work through.

Philip Pape 11:07

Yeah, so I love a couple things you said are a bunch of what you said there. So just kind of recap, my understanding is people are often looking for kind of methods or steps or a framework or an anatomy principles they're looking for exactly like 12345, like you said, and really, it's a skill, which requires a lot of internal reflection. And developing wisdom over time, basically pointed to the two very key things. One is awareness through some method of getting that awareness which some methods are incomplete that I've seen, you know, where you kind of alluded to it, you might track your food, you might track your lifting, you might even track your biofeedback. But if you don't then tie that to the thoughts that then drive the actions, you might change the actions, but it's not for the right reason or in the right way. And kind of gets you back in driving in circles. Reminds me of something I recently heard on the hidden brain. Dr. Judd, Brewer was on there, do you know that show I listen

Tanja Shaw 12:00

to the brain to you not always.

Philip Pape 12:03

I want him to happiness. So Dr. Brewer was on and I invited him on the show he's gonna come on the show. So he works at Brown in Rhode Island, Brown University. And he's an expert in cravings. And he was basically saying the same thing. He said, Look, one very simple way to break your addiction to anything is mindfulness and awareness of it, and what the thoughts are behind it. So what you're saying is very powerful for people listening, like what Tonya is suggesting we can get into specifics is anything that you're struggling with, maybe it's just you really love those baked goods. Next time you have a baked good, maybe just start writing about your thoughts through the process of the baked goods, you might find that that first bite is amazing. And it was totally worth it and embrace it. And then by the fourth muffin, maybe it's not the same experience. So possibly, maybe maybe not. Right. So okay, so then two things come from this as a questions. One is, I guess, any specifics on on how to do that, and that you would recommend, and maybe already said that with the journaling? And then I want to get into how do all these things then affect our body? You know, the effects of feelings and actions? How do they actually affect our bodies functions like hormones and things like that?

Tanja Shaw 13:09

Your comment there about the about fitness and everything like that, too. I think that was a great example. And you talked about mindfulness. And we were talking about mindfulness. And one thing I have noticed over and over again, with so many of my clients like 99% They say they love the muffin, or the cookie or whatever, but when they're actually eating it, they're not present. Like how often does that happen? But like we think about a with a lot of like most of my clients have, like, a really struggle with food and it's more of the mental emotional side of things. And so like yeah, like what to do, but we think about food, we love food, we prepare food we, for them, we're eating it, we're not present. And so it's such a like, when you think about that logically or like what like that makes no sense and yet we do it all the time. While we're eating it we're thinking that we shouldn't eat it while we're standing at the kitchen counter praying it's not happening or eating the crumbs. We're not fully present and one of the greatest tools just not even mindset pieces but if you start to really like actually eat the thing like when you're when those that proverbs like when you when you're walking walk when you're eating eat or Hooters unless something along those lines. When you're there, you'll notice one that sometimes quite often, you don't actually like the food like when you're honest with yourself you're like this is kind of crap. Like a Hershey's actually was listened to another podcast. I listened to one called the happiness lab as well. Kind of on the same lines as the Hidden brain. And she was talking about Hershey's Kisses. I think that's a great example. You send us we we only want the chocolate what the sweet if you actually mindfully eat a Hershey's Kiss you like this. It tastes like plastic. It's not good. And that could be a great thing because one of the things I think, again we have talked about like this binary thinking we have all these thoughts votes, you know that food should just be fuel and, you know, don't treat yourself with food your dog like almost like stupid like this one sided like nonsense. It's not helpful at all. But I think food can be like it should be ideally very pleasurable. And it's a wonderful pleasure, like I love food. And so one of the tools you could do is when specifically for eating is when you actually like slow down. And I'm not the first one who's told you that we slow down, you mindfully eat your food, generally a lot less, or at least you're more satiated, and your digestion so much better. You know, I work with I do lots of health testing and anti Alaba clients have digestive issues and stuff, and one of the first things we can do is just slow down and chew your food. I know your mom told you that you're, you know, someone told you that when a sick kid and it's so simple that we kind of like discard it and think like, oh, that's like, no need to like take these supplements and probiotics and all these little fancy pants things. But slowing down and chewing your food is amazing for your stomach acid and or your enzymes to digest your food. And you get so much more enjoyment out of it. Plus, we're supposed to eat when we eat or food, we're supposed to be in that relaxed state to actually promote digestion. So that's one thing there. But that was kind of a roundabout way. Obviously, they got caught there to actually change your mindset and your thoughts. Like we said, the first step is really starting to become aware of what they are, and starting to just think about what you're thinking. And I don't know if any other mammals or creatures can do that. But we can. And it's a pretty cool feature of humans. Sometimes it has its downsides. But, you know, yeah, I don't think my cats think about what they're thinking, like they're thinking about anything, but start to become aware of those thoughts that you have. And after that, like sometimes we think that the thoughts are so fast that we don't even recognize that they're thinking anything. I think we've all had that experience really well, somewhere in the pantry. At least I have anyway. And you've eaten something here. Like, I didn't think about that. And there was probably a thought, but sometimes it's so fast or so repetitive, that we're not sure it's there. You can ask yourself the question like what might have I been thinking, and that's really helpful just to sort of allow yourself to be wrong, because sometimes, we have this sort of perfectionist type tendencies, where we think we have to figure out like all the things and is not so allow yourself to be wrong, what might I be thinking, and then you can start to like when the best things to start with is just to neutralize the thought. If it's not a thought that you want to keep, you can say something like, and that's just a thought. Because when you say that, and that's just a thought it takes the power away from the thought itself. Like, for example, I have banana bread on the counter right now. I feel like oh, one piece of data, right, it's right there. I only have a little bit. And that's just a thought. Because when I just say like I have been adware on the counter, I'm kind of hungry, I should have some, I might have some advice ain't as good or bad, or better, off limits or anything. But let's say that's not my plan. And I had that, you know, I had that thought. And when we had that thought, we think oh, like now it's an urge. Now it's a craving I must have the banana bread, but it's just a thought. And it's such a simple way just to neutralize it. So if you don't feel always armed with a way to like rebuttal the thought or to replace the thought, then simply just neutralizing it can be helpful. Um, have you read the book soundtracks by Jon Acuff, but I know Jon Acuff I love his book soundtracks is probably one of the most recommended books, I have heard my clients, he recommends three questions. And I've started using this with my coaching as well. I used to have a slightly different method, but this was like super clear, it's like, is the thought helpful? Is it true? Is it kind? And if the answer is no to any of those questions, then it's a thought you want to replace. For example, let's say you're looking at yourself, I'd record a podcast this morning on body image and looking at ourselves naked in the mirror, let's say step of the shower, you look yourself in the mirror, and you say, Oh, dear God, I'm fat. Let's just say that. If you say that to yourself, you may feel defeated, you may feel like less than you may feel not enough, you might feel that stress response that we sometimes get is like we're not comfortable. And that thought might be true. Maybe you are overweight, like me. And that's just a neutral word. Like maybe you're having more fat you want to have, but is it kind? Is it helpful right now? And if the answer is like so kind, I mean, you can decide that's like, I guess a relative question that can be completely neutral. When my son was little, he would like, call people he would always like pick up my belly. And, you know, call me chubby, even though like, I don't have like him on Jacob. But for him, it wasn't a bad thing. It was just like looking at like, a little belly fat. And there were you like it was a negative wasn't positive, it just was. So you can decide whether it's kind or not. But if it's not kind of not helpful, then that's a thought that you can start to replace, say anything was said in things like, I'm so out of shape. It might be true, maybe you are in a shape. But is that thought helpful right now. And maybe it's somewhat helpful if it's going to spur an action, but then we probably don't want to keep repeating that thought over and over again. I'm so sad because the repeating pot and so things like let's say for an urge or craving if you say to yourself like this one thing doesn't count or I'll start again tomorrow, that sort of quiz kind of common phrases that we say quite often. And it's not true, it's not helpful or, or in kind is kind of neutral. And then you can start to replace those thoughts. And the best thing is just as you start to think of the thoughts that could be more true, kinder, helpful. So the example of looking yourself in the mirror, not liking what you see you're thinking you're fat you To say, like, if I have a body, like that's a more neutral thought, or I'm in the process of taking care of myself, or I'm committed like, or this body has like gone through a lot, and I'm committed to taking care of her, those are all things you can say. Same thing with caribou and those apples now, but like, I'm still at a shape, you can say, like, and like, and I'm in the process of taking care of myself, and I'm committed to focusing what I can do today. Those are all things that we can do to help. Same thing, like, even like when you're really like, you know, super tired. Sometimes you say things like, I'm so tired right now, which might be true. And maybe it's helpful so that you can go take a nap or to go rest. Sometimes when you we just like reinforce the fact that we're tired, we feel more tired. And sometimes you don't need to, and we can't take a break, or we should or maybe your dog that tyres is telling yourself that we're tired. And that's where that is a bit nuanced, because you Is it your mind telling you thought or is your body telling you that and that's where we need that reflection. And so to have some honesty with ourselves as well,

Philip Pape 21:00

so much there, so, so much that I'm just listening to you. Because this is enjoyable. It's like you're giving me a podcast here on all these wonderful tools. I'm trying to work my way through some of the things I got out of this. First of all, my wife makes the best banana bread. So I'll tell you, I eat a banana every day before my workout and the ones that start to spoil it goes into a banana bread pile. And I fully embrace even her banana bread. But anyway, I love the thoughts because some of the mindful techniques I've learned in the past regarding like breath, work and whatnot. And mindfulness involve looking at your emotions and thoughts go by right as objective things that are either floating by in a river or they're flying by in the air. And it kind of reminded me of that where either, like you said, you either reframe it, or make it neutral or convert that thought into a positive action, which is they're all great options. Because you can't help the thought comes in your brain. It's there. It's happened. It's an HSA, okay, what do I do about it going forward? It is funny, because I was just, I had moments of self consciousness all the time, like I recorded a video on my gym, for my community to show them how to work out and do certain things. And I'm constantly evaluating my own body in that video, right? We do that all the time about ourselves, but then we can say, okay, and this is what's going to happen or, and you know, I'm being helpful to the people watching this and it doesn't matter, you know, you can definitely replace your thoughts. You also mentioned the Food is fuel kind of dilemma where sometimes we like it's a pity statement as well, like a cliche, well, Food is fuel. And I've heard both sides of that argument, successfully framed, where, you know, the one side is, well, because food is fuel, we can we can use that to drive, like better choices in our food. On the other hand, you said if it's only fuel kind of takes away, the enjoyment and the human experience part of the food, that I'm trying to gain weight, and I get to the end of the day, if I'm quote unquote, a little behind on my energy intake, it's like, do I think of that as fuel and just stuff my face with gummy bears? Or do I? Do I like you kind of reframe my experience with food, so that it's enjoyable, and it's serving me. But again, I'm traveling as well here, but I love all of these tools that people can use to neutralize their thoughts. So thank you for that. With regard to those thoughts, how do they then impact our body beyond that? Because I think that's the next piece of it like physiologically, hormonally how they impact us.

Tanja Shaw 23:14

And I'm going to say that in like 30 seconds, but two things, I want you to recap at ESA two, one, I love your word, the use of the word. And I think that's really powerful. And sort of takes away that either or, because you're like even critiquing your body like yeah, like, it's okay, if you're like, you don't love every single inch of your body, or maybe you like, and that's like, that's a perspective. And yes, you can work on that all kinds of too. But it's okay. And that's not stopping you. It's like, and you're going to do it to serve your community. And I also want to just double back on what you just said that we can't control our thoughts. And you're right, like, we can't, like our first thoughts. I've had terrible thoughts sometimes like that. I'm like, Oh my gosh, okay, like, I need to go see somebody, I shouldn't be thinking those. But that's the human experience, we're going to all things that will We will never tell other people because it's just like horrible things. And so it doesn't mean you're a bad person, it doesn't mean that they have to act on these things. Like, can you imagine, I mean, I've been at the top of NFE, as you've ever been had this phrase be on top of a high bridge or say, jump, right? Yeah, you're not gonna jump, and then you got kind of freaked out because you're like, but I could and then it's just a thought. That's all it is. And they're just words, they're just sentences. So I think that's super helpful. And also that you can do all the mindset work and you can work on this and uncover like, you know, the subconscious patterns and limiting beliefs that drive a lot this and everything. And there is no place that we're going to get to where all of our thoughts are like helpful and kind. And you know, because when I see all the time is that we like a perfection like let's say with eating, but then we have perfection with our thoughts and we think we're doing it wrong because these negative thoughts or these diety thoughts come back again like it's okay. You seem to have the tools to be able to work through them. Okay, so how do they affect your hormones? So I really got into looking at hormones digestion, detoxification, energy production, nervous system, immune function on my clients about two, three years ago. And the reason why I got into that is because I was doing a lot of the foundational basics, I still think the foundations are like, where's that for most of us, we're just not doing them consistently, like moving your body, like sleeping water, balanced meals, like bringing joy, less stress, and bliss. But for so many clients, they were doing that they're having an awesome, like breakthroughs in their mindset. But they still are stuck with results, like they just were like, still, that just have issues, they are like, maybe not losing weight. So weight loss resistance, and like, and they legit were like, doing the things right, the work is essential. And so I want you to undercover, like what's going on, like, what's really going on underneath the surface. So that's what I got into just learning how to actually test these things and look at labs and stuff. And labs are wonderful, they're fun, they're a great tool. They're not like, gonna solve everything there, they definitely have their limitations as well. But it's actually really been really kind of neat for a lot of my clients to also see the repercussions of their mindset, their habits or lifestyle on paper. And sometimes that's been like an extra, I say, like, almost like an extra motivating factor. Because sometimes we see these things like oh, like, intuitively like, or theoretically, we know this, that until we went through directly. We know for example, you know, if I don't take breaks throughout the day, or I don't manage my mind, I'm gonna be like, stressed out. And then you look at the cortisol levels on paper, you're like, Oh, well, that's what's happening or digestion, that sort of thing to

26:36

me, my name is Lisa. And I'd like to Big shout out to my nutrition coach Philippi. With his coaching, I have lost 17 pounds, he helped me identify the reason that I wanted to lose weight, and it's very simple longevity, I want to be healthy, active and independent. Until the day I die, he introduced me to this wonderful Apple macro factor, I got that part of my nutrition figured out along with that is the movement part of nutrition, there's a plan to it, and really helped me with that. The other thing he helped me with was knowing that I need to get a lot of steps in. So the more steps you have, the higher your expenditure is, and the easier it is to lose weight, when it's presented to you like he presents it, it makes even more sense. And the other thing that he had was a hunker guide. And that really helped me so thank you. But

Tanja Shaw 27:20

I think the biggest thing that we need to focus on, I never really gave it I think the credit deserved. And I even don't like talking about it, because I think it's so like no one likes listening to it. But stress is stress and stress management. And I hate the word stress management to like, it's just feels like managing your stress, like your portfolio. And you're like you're

Philip Pape 27:39

too technical. Yeah, it does. But

Tanja Shaw 27:42

it's such an important thing. And the thing is, is that from a physical perspective, when we, a lot of us, a lot of people have really like ongoing negative conversations with themselves. They're hard on themselves, they focus on the negative. You know, I've been just like, I don't know if it's true or not, but like you have conversations with people, like, oh, how are you busy. And you know, we talk and then we like talk about how it's raining all the time. And it's just like, there's just like, just like this, like negative. And a lot of us like we're in our heads all the time with this negative, like the negative energy and negative soundtrack that we keep repeating ourselves. And from a experience perspective, it doesn't feel like it just doesn't feel good to have that. But then it also impacts how our body functions. Because it creates this low grade stress on our body, or we just don't feel safe. And that can impact our cortisol levels. So what I usually see at the beginning is cortisol levels go up. And then eventually the cortisol levels go down. Cortisol and the stress response tends to be like the first domino that affects everything else. You know, we talked about how like, all diseases begin in the gut. And I really think that stress causes the gut issues that causes everything else like I think it's that's how those causes gut dysfunction, blood sugar dysregulation. I mean, on a simple date, we talked about blood sugar and regulating blood sugar with food a lot. But cortisol effects like that regulate blood sugar to cortisol is gonna spike blood sugar levels. And if you have cortisol spikes, because you are, like, always on edge or not giving yourself that self care or whatever her are talking really to yourself, always thinking you're not enough, then you're going to have these hormonal imbalances and stress is the body's priority. Because from a survival perspective, the buyer doesn't prioritize weight loss for one thing ever. That's like the last thing. There's no benefit for a survival perspective for us to lose weight up until like last 3040 50 years like it. So that's why like, the body doesn't produce reproduction. And so when stress levels are up or you're not producing, like, you're having imbalances there, that's where we see lots of like, a lot of women really struggle with menopause and sex hormones at a time or the perimenopause transition, which is a whole Yeah, that can be fun. Because the Bidens and prioritize fertility, the body prioritizes stuff Ask management and protection for yourself. And so when we have these negative self talk, just like just being mean to ourselves kind of stuff, and it's shocking, when I had two challenges or certain coaching programs, women sort of start to like write down and become awareness, aware of the thoughts that they're saying to themselves. It's awful. Like, it's the kind of stuff you're like, Oh, I was like, Oh, we don't do that anymore. Like, there's enough education, about about self talk. And with the stuff that they write down, it's terrible. And in some of the stuff I I think about too, like when I write down, like, oh, my gosh, like, I gotta, I gotta check that, like, it's just not helpful. It's not kind it's not, I mean, it's not true either. And that creates a stress response in the body. And then I think it's so important to that we really do focus on both like, the mindset and also the by science, because what happens is, sometimes we have like, a stressor, like the mood thoughts, whatever. And that creates, let's say, gut dysfunction, blood sugar regulation, can't sleep, what happens when you like, have like, you're in pain all the time, you have inflammation, you can't sleep, you tend to also make poor choices. And so you're still at school that's like that cycle of, it's just like this never ending cycle of like, I'm stressed, I make more choices, because I'm poor choices and stress. And stress also, is not an emotion, we often say like, I feel stressed. It's a physical response that often happens to emotions. So if you feel very fearful, or if you feel like, you know, panicky or you have ruminating negative thoughts, there's a stress response there. The stress response is also to do sometimes, like things like blood sugar regulation, gotten infections, it can be due to like food intolerances. If you're not sleeping well enough, if you're eating too much too little exercise is a wonderful is a stressor. And I see this as a most of my clients actually, that I work with, probably could like, I don't think they over exercise. But there is a tendency for some people to overdo the exercise too, because we want to like burn the fat and lose the weight. And it's just so counterproductive when we overdo it. Yeah,

Philip Pape 31:53

everything you're saying makes total sense. And I think the lens of stress being potentially the root cause of everything is, can be a very helpful one, right? Because then we can kind of tie, tie that to what we're doing and very specific things. For example, you know, the other night, I ate out later than usual and had a few drinks. And I rarely drink these days. And so what happened, my HRV went out of whack, my resting heart rate was up, temperature was up for the night, I want an aura ring. So you get all this cool data to kind of validate what you know, is be the case when you wake up in the morning and feel five degrees warmer than you normally do. Maybe that's a women feel that out for hot flashes, I don't know. But you feel that and you're like, Okay, that's a form of stress. And now that's going to have a cascading effect for the rest of the day, especially if you didn't get any more sleep than you normally did. And so I like how you mentioned, pretty much everything we do that's kind of beyond the body's normal capacity, in some sense. Food intolerances like that's a I'll say uncontrollable thing other than the putting the food in your mouth, of course, but that's causing a stress, overtraining, I just mentioned alcohol, you know, and all this is tied, like you've said, the hormones, you got cortisol, you got the HPA axis, you've got all this other complicated stuff, we don't have to necessarily dive into that makes everything else harder than fat loss, right? And everything else so and sleep, poor sleep cause poor stress, poor stress? Mostly, exactly. So it's good to just understand that and people are like, oh, there we go, again, talking about stress. But it's like you could do all the other things, and they're just going to be so much harder. Just take care of yourself. But I know it's not that easy now, but it can be Yeah, because you got Tony here to share her wisdom. So what are some things we can do? Unless there's more to explore on the physiology itself? Well, what are some things that we can do to, I guess, change our mindset that then affects our stress, so that we can improve our stress? Because that's what we're trying to link with all of this? Totally.

Tanja Shaw 33:41

Yeah. And to that stress your point, she like thoughts and things are simple. But I also want to recognize and appreciate that a lot of people's lives, it's a lot easier than just like, it's not easy, like, a lot of people have, like, have real excuses, that are not like, Oh, I'm watching Netflix all day. I don't have time, like people have real things happening to him. They have stressors in the life of people have dealing with difficult relationships, or dealing with deaths or dealing with aging parents or dealing with 1000s who are having issues with health. Like, there's so much and I think one of the most important things is that we just take that all or nothing thinking out a way of like, because sometimes we get this like we feel so defeated, you know, because like life can be really hard sometimes. And you're like, well, what's the point? Or what's the point? That's one thing if I and that's where I want to like not so much about one of my like statements by isms, I say all the time is to make the goals of your life match to make your goals match the reality of your life. And if you're like not sleeping well because of whatever reasons, and sometimes there's like it's a real thing for some people have like kids, some people have, just like so many different things can go on, but do what you can. And by practicing talking about the mindset here practicing that mindset that I'm gonna show up and do the best I can with what I have with where I'm at with what's going on. That mindset is going to serve you no matter what's happening in your life down the road because It's like, I like riding my bike, my road bike and my mountain bike. But when I bike uphill, it's a lot of work like you're pushing hard, and you're not going very fast, because you're riding up a hill. And sometimes we're riding up a hill, like just your external circumstances hard. But you're putting in the work, you're doing the effort and as like, best as you can. And then when you know that hill like becomes flat again, which it will eventually, and you'll have that strength, you'll have that mindset shift that you've made, that I'm going to do the best I can with what I have. And I think that's going to really serve you. So I want encourage those that with it are who are dealing with hard things, because there are seasons in life that are just are truly, truly hard. And it's so wonderful that you can practice that. To your question there about that how to like what to do. So that's like, yeah, we'll get really all in I think mindset. Yeah, I think it really starts like going back to just also our, our thoughts about ourself, like, you can also and because every time like if you have that negative self talk like that stressor, when a while back, I was about a year and a half ago, I did this little journal entry. And it was just a random journal entry, a practice that I wrote down on one side of the paper, calm and happy attractors or builders. And I put down on the other page, common happy detractors. And I wrote down all the things that kind of so calm is like my kind of antidote to stress. If I'm joyful, and calm, I'm usually less stress. And because it can be different from person to person, so identify what the stresses are in your life. And for me, it's things like, you know, rushing. And I have a tendency to be really hard on myself to always be pushing and like wanting to do more, and I have a wonderful brain that has tons of ideas, which is fantastic. But after doing this now for was it 2024, I think I've been an entrepreneur since 2007. So while like, there's some burnout, like there can be some burnout, if you're like, if you keep having this, like I need to push it need to grow, I need to grow. And it's like for so for me personally, that's a bit of a stressor. So I think the stressors that in your life are going to be individual, and to say, take some time write down, like, what are the things that are adding one of the things that I bring joy with things are like, helping me like stay grounded, maybe things like your walks, I have three cats, which I would love, like, you know, spend time with my cats and go for a walk recording in a neighborhood, all those kinds of things are the add to my life, they keep me more calm and grounded. And then what are the things that are causing the stresses, some things we can't control, or if we did change them, there'll be a really big consequence that we may not be ready for. For example, if you have an aging parent, that's like you're really age a caregiver, you can choose not to, like that's a choice, that that's, there's a consequence of that. And so, although it's a choice, we have to really respect like that might not be the best choice and you have might have some values. But even with that, maybe it's setting boundaries and things like that, too. But I think the best thing for that is to be individualized for yourself, like what are the things and how can I give myself you know more things that are kind of recharging me and giving me that recovery and less, not even less things all the time is that it's just I love the word balance. I don't think balance is really realistic or a goal that really getting to you but it's about just trying not to be get totally off balance where you have all these stressors and not enough. And a lot of the stressors that we have on our ourselves. It's this perfectionism it's the thinking that we should do everything having 37 things to do on our to do list knowing getting done 10 And then feeling more failure than like thinking that even thinking like, you know, we're behind that we're not not like all those are stressors, and sorry to pay attention to them and see what else we can do and reframe that because it can really serve us and as I speak to this podcast, I'm speaking directly to myself to

Philip Pape 38:46

know how you hear you.

Tanja Shaw 38:49

Yeah, and I'm like, I know,

Philip Pape 38:51

ya know, there's so much good there. You said that people have real things in their life. I mean that in the way I've also phrased in passes, like life is life, life is going to exist. It's like Christmas is gonna come on December 25. Whether you budget for life is gonna happen. It's an In fact, that's the norm. There's the idea of this smooth sailing, you know, everything's routine all the time, you could eat like a bodybuilder. 100% of the time, because life is perfect is rare for anybody. So you mentioned the all or nothing thinking and matching the goals to reality of your life. My mind started going to stoicism when you got into doing with the best with what you have, and taking care of what you can control. But what I really loved was your analogy of a hill. Sometimes you're riding up the hill and it builds resilience. And then that got me thinking about optimism bias. So I wanted to ask you about this thought of. So a lot of people told me in the past, Oh, you're so positive, or you know, almost like rose colored glasses like Pollyanna about certain things. And when I was younger, I saw that as a negative Now I fully embrace it because not only has it served me but also I think the evidence shows that when people have an optimism bias whether it's natural or they learn Learn it, rather than falling on, like disappointment like people think you will, if you're too optimistic about things, it tends to drive you to do something different in the face of whatever's happening. I mean, what are your thoughts about optimism bias? Because you said, dealing with hard things, doing the best with what I have, when somebody is facing a really terrible situation that they can't control? Like you said, maybe it's a death, maybe they've become a single parent, maybe it's like you said, a caregiver, just something pretty tough. That life set your way? How do you in that moment, and maybe it's not an MO and maybe you need to process and then a later moment, move forward with this optimism or doing the best with what you have? What What are your thoughts on that?

Tanja Shaw 40:40

Yeah, I think that's why we're support can be really helpful for one like, I think that's one thing that's massive, whether it was a counselor or coach or something, but to have someone to walk through tough times with, I think the only downside, not the only because, again, like, it's really easy to look at things like very binary, and everything is very nuanced. And very, listen, we need to have the wisdom, I think what's perceived as the negative to be optimistic, is that you might bypass some of the things that need to be worked through, because we kind of skipped through them, I have done this, and I am now getting a lot more therapy to work through some things. Because I would always like I would resolve problems, I would redirect, I would go to the gym, I would work out I like change my seat, I would do all these things. But I think that for me, there are some things that are going on that I because I sort of kind of skipped over them without ever reflecting on some of the like, the things that the limiting beliefs and like the triggers and things that and so this is my experience. They come up more now. And they're more bigger and louder. And they're like, because I skipped over them. But you can still have be focusing like, I don't think optimism and focusing on like, I don't think it means that you're bypassing the reality of life. I don't think you're gonna be like, oh, like my spouse left me, well, let's like, what an opportunity to be, like, you know, like, no, like, you can grieve and you can also, you know, work through things. So I think that, in general, like, if we had to choose between, like looking for the negative and everything, and looking for the positive and everything and seeing what we can do, and focusing what we see, I think I think that is the better choice. With the understanding, that doesn't mean that we're going to be happy all the time. Or that if we're having like, that we're bypassing our emotions, and we're not feeling like the things that are also meant to be felt that sometimes we can kind of that are like that dealing with bad emotions, we don't want to feel them, I don't like feeling them. I hate feeling them. And I've like bypass them and repress them for long enough that they're surfacing a lot more now. And so I think there's a, again, it's kind of almost like, I don't know, if I've been like circling the question or actually getting to it or not, but it's this idea that it's not one or the other. And it's not like you're I don't think what you're saying is that you are positive all the time. And you like, only look at the bright side, and you never like recognize the reality of like, that things are also hard or people feel you can grieve and be sad, all those kind of things to

Philip Pape 43:07

agree. Yeah, no, yeah, for sure. There's a nuance there, that I was relating to what you had said about the hard things are going to happen, you're gonna acknowledge them, you may reflect on them, process them, and you want to move forward in some way that is dealing with it. And taking advantage of that resilience, you get through that process in moving forward, because you know, your life might be harder than someone else's. That is just reality. Now that we know that let's go forward, but not again with rose colored glasses. And you did mention one of the thing about you called it balance and then kind of stepped back and said, Well, you know, because the word balance is so can become cliche. And I guess I'll use the word bias, like in a good way we can bias things toward things that serve us in our life. So it's kind of like you're putting your thumb on the scale, and saying, Look, let me just add in the things kind of like additive nutrition, but additive self care

Tanja Shaw 43:55

exactly, I think is really, really a great way of looking at it. And that gets us away from that kind of all or nothing thinking or is one or the other and everything like that, too. Yeah.

Philip Pape 44:03

Yeah. No. So now, like in your experience, right? So we talked about mindset. We alluded to early on that mind over matter. It's kind of this cliche thing, but where is mindset alone? not sufficient? And I'm looking for a more nuanced answer than just, well, you got to train and eat well, and all that we know all that. Like, let's just assume we know that piece. But where's mindset alone? not sufficient?

Tanja Shaw 44:28

Yeah, I think I think this is necessary go back to original part. Is that how it can override SLS into our bodies as well? I think that's where we started the conversation. That's such a great way to bring it back. I see it so much through these pressures that we have on ourselves to like to achieve to strive to, you know, to push are never enough. We can't rest. We feel guilty a lot. And we can mindset our way sometimes to doing more but then sometimes the answer is changing our circumstance. As well changing what we're doing. And the other thing is like, I look at like mindset environment as kind of two things. And let's talk about like fact food and fitness and stuff. Like, if I had a bowl of m&ms on my desk right now I can mindset my way through it and be like, No, I'm not gonna get the m&ms. I really love m&ms. And I'm that great. But if you have a bowl like peanut m&ms Right here, or the, you know, the next bowl, like the peanut butter and the peanut ones, and the chocolate ones, I'd probably eat them. So simple thing to do with your environment is to just change. Now, take the assets off the table. Now think about it. But sometimes we try to like let's say, like, you have a list of 37 things to do. And you can mindset your way through it and be like, well, you know, I can chunk it down, I can just like focus on doing the things like doing the best I can. Or you can make your list down to three and deciding to do three things instead. So sometimes, we think by focusing too much on the mindset and not acknowledging the environment and the circumstance, we can maybe have to work too hard to try to reframe what we need to do. Let's say you're in a bad relationship. You can mindset your way through it and be like, you can do all the work. But maybe sometimes the relationships change like you. And that's I think, sometimes when we look at things like, and this is why I love and I hate social media is that we love these like dichotomous way of thinking where it's like, yeah, mindsets, everything or like, blah, blah. And then we get all the likes and shares. It's like so Hossam. But if it's simple, it's not always sometimes true. Not always true, though.

Philip Pape 46:32

Yeah, two things come to mind. I love that you, on one hand said we could use our intelligent brain and mindset to prevent using too much mindset. So to speak, like, we can get smart about it and intelligent and be efficient, or whatever the phrase you want to use of creative, you know, come around the problem and say, Well, I have these 20 things I think I have to do. But let's narrow it down to three, we can delegate delete this that. Before we even get to that. The other thing that comes to mind is, you know, the habits and behaviors we create through these practices over time, kind of eliminate the need for that mindset in your way through things as well, right? Because you've gotten to the point where now your body is almost taken over with the muscle memory or the mindset that's just ingrained in the back of your brain and a different part of your brain now. That's just what comes to mind for me. Yeah. Okay. So I know, we have like, we have like 10 minutes left, there's a whole bunch of things I would want to touch on. This was an interesting one that I thought of with you here. Is you have that background in functional lab testing. I wonder, is there any? Are there any biomarkers or lab results that predict or influence or associated with mindset changes? And I don't know if you know what I mean by that, you know, to tailor to people from their lab work?

Tanja Shaw 47:48

Yeah, and there's nothing I know, there's nothing that specifically there because the body is we offer I look, for example, cortisol levels and the cortisol patterns with a lot that's influenced by so many different things mindset being. And so I think, and whether it's that or like, I literally love functional, I love functional testing, I think it's can be really targeted, it can be wonderful to get like three protocols for each person. You tell us based on like me. So that's how you feel for somebody. It's like, are you sleeping well? How's your digestion? You're talking about your apps that you use, like your ring and stuff like that, too. Like those will tell you a couple things as well. I'm not familiar with them. I actually have no tracking. I track my food right now and the tracking phase. But I have like no wearable trackers. I have like a retirement Apple Watch about a year ago. I'm like done. So I just I have my Timex watch that's about it right now. Because to me, honestly, not to say that they're bad or good. But that was one of those calm and happy detractors is I was starting to like try to go to do certain exercises cuz I knew it would like burn more calories or walk a certain distance as like, I still want to do that. Like I don't. And I also didn't want my any text messages or phone calls on my phone virus either. So I love it. Yeah,

Philip Pape 49:00

I mean, that sounds like a form of self care for you've made that choice of these things tend to add stress. You're also big with the outdoors, right outdoor activities, hiking or paddleboarding? I think I love it all.

Tanja Shaw 49:12

That's a problem. I love it all.

Philip Pape 49:14

Well, just tell me about like, like, I just want to know. So the audience learns a little bit about you maybe tie those experiences into how you integrate your mental physical health. Give people a vision of like being outside doing one of those activities.

Tanja Shaw 49:26

I still love it. And like I alluded to, I don't do everything well, like I think a lot of the times we have the knowledge. And for me, I think because I've kind of coached myself for so long. It's been kind of got through things, but now I'm getting a little more. Yeah, working with a therapist to work through some things that I have not the patterns that I'm not able to solve my own. And I think that's excited about this process. Like it's been good so far. But I find it everyone has their own thing. But for me being in nature and is ah, sometimes I don't know if I'm running away from like, the To Do lists, or writing towards nature, but I spent a lot of time like we do lots of backpacking. And it's like an all inclusive vacation because you've already like, packed all your stuff. He's carrying you back. And I will go into, like, last year, I didn't think I did five like multi day hikes. And there was never cell phone service. I use shut off like, and what I love about it is that you hike for long enough that you're tired, like, we hike for quite a few hours, you're carrying this backpack, which is usually way too heavy to carry too much stuff. You get to camp, and then I just like I sit there and I stare at the ocean or wherever I am, or the mountains or whatever, or hours. And the time goes by I don't. It's not like I'm trying to meditate. I just sit there. I mean, it's like body calm. It's the most talked about, like stress levels, it's like the most wonderful feeling like everything is just so it's so good. And then the cool thing to what happens is like we did this one hike, my son and I last year, we did a three day hike. And in Washington, it was actually in the Olympic National Forest, which is just beautiful. And the hike wasn't that hard. So it had like, probably like six or seven hours, just like sit and stare at the ocean every day. And that's all he read. And I just did that. But then after that I had like, it just gave me such clarity so much. I feel like I felt like all these ideas were coming to me by like day three of just, like just downloads, it was just such a great experience. So more of that in my life, like more adventures more in prioritizing that because we often so like, had this idea what success looks like, you know, it's like often like it's the growth, it's like, the income and all that awesome too. But it's a good question like, who are we measuring? Like, what's the what's your misery? Sick? And, and same thing with like, with body to, you know, sense who you're supposed to? Like, why do you want that? Like, truly, why do you want that? And it's just sometimes good to question those kind of things. Because I think sometimes we can push ourselves and sometimes lose sight of the things that we actually want and which is often how we want to feel.

Philip Pape 52:05

Sure, yeah, well, the hustle, getting so zoned in on a single mode. You made me want to go camping again. It's been a couple of years. Okay, you're right. It's so like when you're disconnected even for a day. It's incredible how you become get into that more primal state of just over and around nature, you're going to sleep with the sun. It's just as nice experience. Yeah, it's amazing. Yeah. So all right. I mean, we covered a lot of stuff here today. And hopefully people got some wonderful ideas and some unique perspectives here on mindset on reframing and so many other things. Is there anything that you wished I had asked? And if so, what is your answer?

Tanja Shaw 52:42

I can't really think about, I was actually thinking with this question, because I don't think so. But I think the biggest one I wanted to circle back to the biggest kind of point is that there, I noticed. So try that it's a journey, but it really is, and there is no place for you arrive. And I think that's the biggest mistake that we get to do is we have like these ups and downs, but we have the downs, we feel like we're doing it wrong. And it's so not true. We don't arrive at something that we're gonna keep living into working on it daily, moment by moment. And I think that's a beautiful thing. I

Philip Pape 53:15

agree. There is no place for you to arrive. I love it. Love it. We're gonna leave it at that. And I want people to know where they can reach you, Tanya, where can they learn more about you and learn about your work?

Tanja Shaw 53:25

Yeah, thank you. So the best is probably the podcast, the fit and vibrant podcast. So as I said at the beginning, it's fit and then plus vibrant. And then why spelt? So you spelled y o u. And then my website is Tanya shot.com tnjshw.com. And then there's a links everything else do.

Philip Pape 53:44

Alright, so the fit and environment you podcast and Tanya show.com. We'll put those in the show notes. It was really a pleasure. I thought it was a super like natural conversation. We covered a lot of very interesting things I always learn and it was a pleasure seeing you again, Tanya. Yeah,

Tanja Shaw 53:57

thanks so much for having me.

Philip Pape 54:00

Philip Pape 5/14/24 Philip Pape 5/14/24

Ep 172: The Top 15 Reasons NOT to Start a Diet Right Now (If You Want Sustainable Fat Loss)

Have you ever wondered what’s sabotaging your fat loss? Could it be one of these common scenarios? Should you start your fat-loss diet now? Philip breaks down the roadblocks to achieving your fat loss goals. He explores the top 15 reasons why dieting may not be the best decision right now. He highlights a range of scenarios that can hinder your fat loss efforts, emphasizing the need to address these factors before starting a calorie deficit.

Have you ever wondered what’s sabotaging your fat loss? Could it be one of these common scenarios? Should you start your fat-loss diet now?

Today, Philip (@witsandweights) breaks down the roadblocks to achieving your fat loss goals. He explores the top 15 reasons why dieting may not be the best decision right now. He highlights a range of scenarios that can hinder your fat loss efforts, emphasizing the need to address these factors before starting a calorie deficit. From high stress levels and poor sleep quality to inadequate nutrition and inconsistent training, each reason is thoroughly dissected to guide you toward sustainable fat loss. Philip also emphasizes the importance of mental health, supportive environments, and life events that can influence your success in a dieting phase. He discusses considerations such as hormonal imbalances, nutrient deficiencies, and significant life transitions, providing a holistic view of the potential challenges you may encounter on your weight loss journey. He encourages you to assess your current circumstances, manage stressors, and have contingency plans ready to navigate challenges effectively.

Today, you’ll learn all about:

0:00 Intro
3:00 High stress levels
4:00 Low sleep quality
5:03 Poor nutrition
8:58 Inconsistent training
10:44 Injury or illness
12:23 Pregnancy or breastfeeding
13:45 Prioritizing mental health
15:58 Unsupportive environments
17:07 Underlying hormonal imbalances
18:13 Nutrient deficiencies
19:02 Upcoming major life event
21:30 History of eating disorders
23:13 Period of intense training
25:14 Significant life transition
27:20 Medication side effects cause weight gain
31:28 Outro

Episode resources:

Watch this FREE video on how to setup MacroFactor for body recomp and try MacroFactor FREE with my code WITSANDWEIGHTS

Episode summary:

Embarking on a fat loss journey often conjures images of strict dieting and intense exercise regimens. However, this episode of the Wits and Weights podcast suggests that we may need to pivot our approach to achieve sustainable results. Philip Pape, emphasizes that managing stress, improving sleep quality, and navigating life transitions are pivotal elements before even considering caloric restriction.

It's evident that chronic stress can be a formidable enemy in the battle against excess weight. Stress hormones like cortisol, when produced in excess, can not only lead to energy conservation and a decreased metabolic rate but also make sticking to a diet even more challenging. By incorporating simple daily practices such as meditation, walking, or other stress-relief techniques, one can foster a conducive environment for weight loss that also supports mental well-being.

Sleep is another cornerstone of effective weight management often overshadowed by dietary and exercise considerations. Poor sleep can significantly disrupt the balance of hunger hormones, leading to increased cravings and a greater struggle to maintain a caloric deficit. Adopting a consistent sleep schedule and enhancing sleep hygiene practices are not mere lifestyle adjustments but essential strategies in fortifying one's fat loss efforts.

Furthermore, the podcast delves into the intricacies of nutrition, underscoring the significance of a balanced diet that is rich in both macro and micronutrients. It is not merely about the caloric intake but the quality and composition of the diet that influences satiety, mental clarity, and gym performance. Integrating nutrient-dense foods, lean proteins, and high-fiber options into one's diet can avert nutritional deficiencies that could otherwise lead to health complications.

As for training, the podcast reinforces the importance of consistency and adherence to a regimen that includes resistance training and cardiovascular exercises. Such practices are instrumental in preserving muscle mass and ensuring the metabolism remains active throughout the fat loss phase. A tailored and consistent workout program remains a pillar in the architecture of successful weight management.

In discussing the effects of life transitions on dietary adherence, it's highlighted that significant changes such as moving, job shifts, or alterations in family dynamics can pose substantial obstacles. The podcast advocates for the adoption of realistic goals and strategic planning, including diet breaks and contingency plans, to address the challenges posed by these life events.

Lastly, the episode underlines the importance of a supportive environment, proper management of underlying health conditions, and optimal timing when embarking on a diet. It is evident that a holistic approach, which takes into account various aspects of one's lifestyle, is more likely to result in lasting fat loss.

This detailed exploration into the less-discussed facets of weight loss provides listeners with a broader understanding of what it truly takes to embark on a successful and sustainable fat loss journey. By shifting focus to these foundational elements, individuals can better prepare themselves for the demands of a calorie deficit and, ultimately, achieve their health and fitness goals.

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Get notified of new episodes. Use your favorite podcast platform or one of the buttons below. Then hit “Subscribe” or “Follow” and you’re good to go!

Transcript

Philip Pape 00:00

If you're anxious to get started with your diet so you can lose fat. Hold that thought, because today I'm revealing the top 15 reasons why now might be the worst time to begin a calorie deficit. discover exactly what you need to address first to set yourself up for sustainable long term Fat Loss Success, no shortcuts, and no regaining all the weight back. This is about the long game.

Philip Pape 00:26

Welcome to the wit's end weights podcast. I'm your host, Philip pape, and this twice a week podcast is dedicated to helping you achieve physical self mastery by getting stronger. Optimizing your nutrition and upgrading your body composition will uncover science backed strategies for movement, metabolism, muscle and mindset with a skeptical eye on the fitness industry so you can look and feel your absolute best. Let's dive right in Whitson weights community Welcome to another solo episode of The wit's end weights podcast. In our last episode 171 Big Butts, strong butts, we love them all, how to train your glutes with Sue Bush, we talked about a fun topic, especially for the ladies out there. And that is how to build strong, functional and aesthetically pleasing glutes. Why do we love butts so much? What are the benefits of glute development beyond just looking good? And what are the most effective training strategies, exercise selection and programming considerations for optimal results with those glutes Sue and I were contributors to the March issue of body by science. So she had me on her show recently, the physique development podcast. So if you missed that, go look her up and give it a follow. That's again, the physique development podcast today for episode 172. The top 15 reasons not to start a diet right now. If you want sustainable fat loss, you will discover the critical factors that can make or break your fat loss efforts. We're going to explore all of it how stress, sleep nutrition training, health issues can impact your results. And why addressing these is imperative, before starting a calorie deficit. You'll also learn about the importance of mental health supportive environments, navigating life events, and transitions, all the things that impact you when you're pursuing fat loss because they affect your chances of success and making it last, I want you to listen all the way through to make sure that you don't miss a scenario that could be relevant to you. And then you'll have the confidence to know that you are ready for fat loss when the time comes. And to help you on your journey. I actually made a free video on how to set up everything in your pre diet phase using macro factor. And this video is from the macro factor mastery course in Whitson weights physique university, but I'm giving it to you for free as a podcast listener. It's an unlisted YouTube link in my show notes, just check it out under episode resources. Alright, let's jump into the top 15 reasons not to start a diet right now, if you want sustainable fat loss, and the first reason, potentially, the most important reason is high stress levels. Chronic stress can lead to increased cortisol production, right? And cortisol is not always bad. It's a very important hormone that can benefit us. But chronic stress can increase this over time and make it to a level that it actually hinders fat loss and negatively impacts your adherents to a diet, mainly because your body starts to conserve energy. And as it conserves energy, it reduces your metabolic rate. And that just simply makes it harder because now you would have to cut on lower calories. And it would cause a vicious cycle of making you even more stressed out. So if your stress is really high, right now we're talking chronic stress, you haven't dealt with it, you don't have any techniques in place like breathing, you know, meditation, walking, it doesn't have to be anything fancy, just stuff that is for you on a daily basis, even 20 minutes a day, can go a long way in reducing that stress and give you a more favorable environment for fat loss. So high stress, that's number one. Number two is poor sleep, quality and quantity. All right, you knew these would be on the list, but they're really at the top of the list. For a reason. inadequate sleep can disrupt your balance of hunger hormones, the leptin and ghrelin, your satiety hormones, right, hunger and satiety, I should say. And then that leads to increased cravings. Difficulty adhering to the calorie deficit. We also know that poor sleep quality leads to fat storage in the places that we don't want it. And for both of those reasons, it is good to get locked in on a consistent sleep schedule. Even if you can't get eight or nine hours if you can get seven, even if it's six and a half, but it's consistent the same sleep time and wait time that is going to go a long way. And then all the other optimal sleep hacks related to having a dark cool room having a pre bed ritual avoiding blue light before bed, blue blocking glasses. There's a very long list of things we could get into. But really, if this is a big red flag for you right now it's going to make fat loss

Philip Pape 05:00

It's harder, so at least shifting it in the right direction is going to help. Alright, number three is poor nutrition, you knew some of these things would be near the top, especially for me, as a nutrition coach, I understand the importance of nutrition when it comes to fat loss, not just the calorie deficit itself, but the actual foundation of what you're eating in terms of macro composition, but also micronutrients and nutrient density. So if we can have a flexible approach, right, we talked about flexible dieting a lot on this show. But not a purely If It Fits Your Macros approach, meaning if I give you a target for calories and macros, and say just eat whatever you want to serve those macros, that is not going to serve you when it comes to fat loss. Because the quality and the balance and the types of foods actually impact your hunger, your satiety, your mental state, your performance, all of the things that then make fat loss easier, or harder. So there's some simple rules here, not even rules, just guidelines that will help you with your fat loss. One is to prioritize nutrient dense options. And I am a fan of additive nutrition, adding things in to displace other things that are less important, not necessarily cutting things out or reducing things. Taking a positive additive approach tends to be more in line with human psychology. And it's more fun, inviting approach to actually putting on your plate what you want and need, rather than shaming yourself for things that you quote unquote, should not have. So think about lean proteins, complex carbohydrates, you know, fats from whole food sources, all of the things High fiber foods, plants and vegetables, or fruits and vegetables, even dairy as long as it's lower fat because they're in fat loss that you know, every calorie count every calorie matters. Things that improve satiety things that make you full, right, it might be more like vegetable soups, and it could be having more salads for lunch, having harder foods that take longer to chew and digest and therefore send your body a signal that it's more full. All of these things along with hitting your macros, of course, hitting your protein and getting the right balance of fats and carbs. To support muscle maintenance will make you feel better during fat loss, not just from a mental and fullness perspective. But you want to avoid nutrient, you know vitamin and mineral gaps that can occur because you're at lower calories, because some of those gaps that wouldn't occur when you're at maintenance or in a gaining phase now occur and then all of a sudden, you start getting symptoms that surprise you, you know, low energy fatigue, all these kinds of symptoms. And it could be tied to your thyroid health, it could be tied to your other hormones. But it's a cascade that could have been caused simply because you're nutrient deficient. You're deficient in zinc and selenium and iron and copper and whatever other thing that you really need right now vitamin D. And it's simply because you reduce calories and aren't having the right level of nutrients in there, which may require supplementation. But more often than not, it's a simple shift in some of your food choices. So yes, we're trying to be in a calorie deficit, if you want to think of that as nutrition. But really, I think of nutrition as eating the things that satisfy you in all phases, and are sustainable and allow you to perform in the gym, even when calories are low. So we want to be tracking your macros and micros, we want to be tracking what we're eating, tracking our biofeedback, like hunger, digestion, or energy or mood or recovery. All of these play together, if any of these things are off, if the balance is far off on any one of these that makes fat loss harder, like I can't really go another day doing this, then we reevaluate, reassess, and we make adjustments. All right, and that'll set you up for the long term, because you don't want to force yourself doing this. You want it to feel fairly natural and a little bit easy. So I feel all the way easy, right? It's hard to do fat loss, but a little bit. So that's nutrition. That's number three. Number four. The fourth reason you wouldn't want to be dieting, is if you had inconsistent, or lack of training, right? Resistance training, walking, these are crucial components of a successful fat loss phase because you have to hold on to that muscle if you're going to lose primarily fat. So engaging in regular strength training, with the right intensity and execution that preserves lean muscle mass helps maintain your metabolism helps promote fat loss. And then the cardio as long as you're doing it strategically led by walking but also by other forms of cardio that are at the appropriate level for you. And your recovery can also contribute to increased caloric expenditure, not to mention the health benefits of all of that, right. So I would suggest that you have a regular training, schedule your training, let's say three days a week, four days a week, whatever it is, you've gotten to the step count that you are comfortable with. Maybe it's eight, maybe it's 10, maybe it's 12,000 steps, and you're incorporating whatever

Philip Pape 10:00

cardio you want before you go into fat loss phase, they just like with the nutrition, you want to establish all of the tracking, the macros, the food selection, before you go into fat loss, don't let fat loss, don't let a fat loss phase be the thing that triggers you to all of a sudden change all these things, because that's definitely a recipe for disaster. Okay, so there we go. If you don't have a consistent training routine, if you're not training to build muscle progressive overload all the training principles, then you're not going to be successful during fat loss. Yes, the training may shift in terms of volume or recovery a little bit. But for the most part, most people can keep training, just as they were when they were at maintenance as they go into the fat loss phase if it's an effective program for them. All right, the number five reason you don't want to be in fat loss is injury or illness, injury or illness. I can't tell you how many times I've had people say, Well, I'm sick, so I'm not eating. And I'm also not building muscles. So why would I eat more. And it's kind of a backward thinking, when you're sick, you need as much resources you need as many calories coming in as possible, to help your body recover from that injury or illness. And who cares about scale weight during that time, we're usually only talking about a few weeks, I mean, maybe it's a few months, if it's after surgery, in which case, there's a period at which you're, you know, maybe still in pain, maybe still recovering, maybe still mobile, but eventually we're gonna start moving again. And then you would go back to whatever phase you plan on doing. But you don't want the stress of a calorie deficit on top of the stress of injury, or illness, just get the rest, get the nutrition, you know, keep yourself moving. If it makes sense, depending on the type of illness or an injury, and support the healing process as best you can. That's the way to do it. And just quick story on that right, you guys might have heard probably a lot about my left shoulder rotator cuff surgery I had last year. And it got better and better and better. And then I had a little bit of a setback a few months ago. And I was in a fat loss phase, I immediately switched out of it and went to maintenance, right and the macro factor, one little hack you can do there is if you're in a fat loss phase, and you want to go to maintenance just for a short while I set the rate of loss down to almost zero, instead of setting a new goal, leave it as a fat loss goal, but set the rate of loss near zero. And that'll keep you close to maintenance. And then you could just overshoot that by like 100 calories every day to be definitely at at least maintenance. Alright, the sixth reason you don't want to be dieting, women who are pregnant or breastfeeding, I had to include this in here, just in case there was any ambiguity about it. But um, pursuing any sort of weight loss or fat loss during pregnancy absolutely is not advised. Pregnant women should be gaining on average 35 pounds, but it varies tremendously from person to person. So I'm not going to give give you that as a target. I'm just saying, you know, you would expect to gain weight because you're building an entire person inside of you supporting that developing fat reserves for afterward for breastfeeding, whether you're breastfeeding or not. I mean, that's just how the biology works. And then if you're breastfeeding, for sure, you don't want to be losing weight, because of all the extra nutritional demands needed to support the development of the baby after it's born. So here's where you know, I'm not giving you medical advice. I'm just saying that it probably is a good idea not to be dieting until you're past that phase. Right? I know there's a stigma, for whatever reason around women, you know, getting back to how they were before pregnancy. I think pregnancy is beautiful. I think it's this wonderful, natural thing and women who have, you know, a little bit of extra fat or skin because they were pregnant. Come on people. Why would we shame anyone for that? That's what I think. I think it's a beautiful thing for you to support that, again, whether you're breastfeeding or not, and that everyone can wants to whatever the reason is, so pregnancy or breastfeeding is not a good time to be dieting. The next one is mental health, if you have any mental health issues or struggles. So this is a wide spectrum, any sort of concerns that you feel our needs to be addressed from a mental health perspective, whether it's anxiety, depression, suicidal thoughts, whatever. I think that prioritizing mental health itself is going to trump fat loss. And I think fat loss can make those things worse. We know that mental health is improved with when you have more energy in your system, like in terms of calories and food. When you have more movement like walking, when you strength train, all of these things are beneficial to mental health and they are segregated by having lack of calories coming in. So I would say, don't exacerbate it. Make sure to work with a qualified health professional mental health professional on your well being and that you know, then you know that that variable is not in the mix. Hey, this is Philip and I hope you're enjoying this episode of Whitson weights. I started with some weights to help ambitious individuals in their 30s 40s and beyond, who want to build muscle lose fat and finally look like they lived. I noticed that when people transform their physique. They not only look and feel better, but they also experience incredible changes in their health, confidence and overall

Philip Pape 15:00

Quality of Life. If you're listening to this podcast, I assume you want the same thing to build your ultimate physique and unlock your full potential. Whether you're just starting out or looking to take your progress to the next level. That's why I created wits and weights physique University, a semi private group coaching experience designed to help you achieve your best physique ever. With a personalized done for you nutrition plan, custom designed courses, new workout programs each month, live coaching calls and a supportive community, you'll have access to everything you need to succeed. If you're ready to shatter your plateaus and transform your body and life, head over to Whitson weights.com/physique or click the link in the show notes to enroll today. Again, that's Whitson weights.com/physique. I can't wait to welcome you to the community and help you become the strongest leanest and healthiest version of yourself. Now back to the show.

Philip Pape 15:58

The next reason you wouldn't want to be dieting is if you have an environment around you, that is just way too unsupportive and sabotaging, right. And granted, we all live in a house or apartment or somewhere where there are temptations. And there's not a we can't control everything, there's things we can and can't control. And we want to create that supportive environment. We also know that it's okay to have things there that tempt us if we also build the resilience along the way where it's less of a temptation. But sometimes there are too many things that are just too many snacks sitting out on the counter in the office, you know, so much stress in your job that and you never meal plan and you never meal prep, you don't have the food in the fridge or the pantry. So now you're tempted to always go out to eat, all of these little things add up. And my point is if the overall environment is just so overbearing in terms of its lack of supporting your goals, address that address that first, to an extent, right to the extent that you think okay, it's all set. Now, there are a few things left that I can deal with no big deal. I'm ready for fat loss, but definitely deal with an unsupportive environment first. All right, number nine is going to be underlying hormonal imbalances. And we're talking about actual disorders. And I was gonna say medically diagnosed, but I know with the state of the industry, it's hard sometimes to get things diagnosed, even if you do have them. So it's really your call. And if you're working with a functional doctor, medical doctor, whatever. But things like thyroid disorders, right? Hypo hyperthyroidism and Hashimotos PCOS, because they affect your metabolic engine, they can impact fat loss by simply making it harder to lose weight, because your metabolic rate drops more significantly than for someone else. It's not impossible, I definitely have worked with clients who have the underlying issues, and have had medically diagnosed issues like Hashimotos, and they still can lose weight, they still lose fat, it's just everything has to really, really be dialed in. And so if you've got these issues, and you're trying to address them medically, go ahead and take care of that and monitor the data and the variables and your blood work to make sure things get where you want them first independence of fat loss, and then you're in a much more favorable metabolic environment for fat loss. Alright, number 10. Reason reason number 10. You don't want to be dieting is I kind of alluded to this already in the nutrition section. But it's nutrient deficiencies, like when you know for sure that you have nutrient deficiencies that have to be corrected. Okay. And these are, these are nutrient deficiencies when you're not in fat loss. So the last one I mentioned was, you know, when you cut calories and then become deficient, this is you have them even when you're not in fat loss, and there are either food choices or supplementation choices for iron, vitamin D, calcium, magnesium, whatever, that will solve some other things going on. Maybe you have low energy, maybe poor sleep, right? Could be anemia, whatever symptoms you have addressing those first, and then going into balance. Again, we're not trying to compound multiple stressors here. That's the point. All right, the 11th reason you wouldn't die it is if you have a major upcoming life event that is high stress. Now, one of those life events you might realize is something like a wedding. And a wedding is like probably the number one reason somebody says I need to lose fat. Okay? Now there's other things like okay, work is ramping up, and you have this huge project coming up. And it's just stressing the heck out of you. I had a client who went through clinicals. And it was like 12 hour days, you know, third shifts all this stuff, right. And it was a temporary state. It's kind of the worst time to be dieting during those periods because your stress goes up. And what's going to happen is your metabolism comes down, and you have to cut calories more and now listen, you're just sapped of energy. And the stress is ramping up is a vicious cycle, right. But something like a wedding. This is where I think you want to have a long term plan if possible. Now, if you're getting married in six weeks from now or eight weeks from now, and you feel you have fat to lose

Philip Pape 20:00

that's your call, right? That's your call, if you want to buckle down, pull out the willpower and discipline card and just make it happen. That's up to you. That's not sustainable, right? That's not a long term approach. But I get that a wedding was once a lifetime thing, and you're just gonna make that trade off. Okay, I understand it. But I actually have two clients right now that, that I know of who have weddings over a year from now. And they're like, What am I going to do for that, and my first response is good for you for asking, with plenty of time, because this is going to make it very easy, what we would do is we would take the wedding and we would reverse engineer it. And if there's any fat loss needed, which generally there's some fat loss that they want to get, because they want to be, you know, very, very lean, and shredded or whatever, not shredded, but you know, they want to have just the best physique ever for their wedding. Right, it's understandable, to fit in that dress fit in that suit, whatever, we would then put the fat loss phase far before the wedding in a time when it wasn't too stressful, you know, like me usually takes like a year to plan for wedding. And, you know, the stress tends to ramp up toward the end before the wedding. So we fit that fat loss phase in the middle, somewhere of that 10 month period. And then get back to like, just maintaining that, for example, or at worst, have like a mini cut closer to the wedding, but not a very long stressful cut, you know, something moderate, that's also short in duration, then that's an approach. But anyway, if you have an upcoming major life event in the short term, like in the next two to three months, and just not even that long, but like the next month or so and stresses ramping up, that's not a great time to be dieting. All right, the 12th reason you may not want to be dieting is and this is an important one, but I wanted to include it in here for completeness, if you have a history of eating disorders. Now, I'm not talking about someone who has an active eating disorder right now, if you do, please, please seek medical help, I hope you're getting treatment for that. But if you have a history of eating disorders, and you're not dealing with eating disorders today, you know you've processed, you've come up with some solutions for that that work for you, I would still approach fat loss with caution. And under the guidance of either a mental health professional medical professional dietician, or well qualified coach even because again, we're not talking about people who currently have a disorder. But some of you may have had it in the past where there's a little more opportunity for being triggered by certain foods and certain behaviors. We want to prioritize that healthy relationship with food, with body image for long term success. And so one thing that comes to mind is if and when you resolve all the other things, and you're like, No, I'm ready to go. My only caution here is take a conservative approach, right? Don't go aggressively, give yourself time, give yourself a lot of buffer, take it very, very easy. So it's almost like you're not really dieting, you're just shifting in the direction to release some fat. And then you're tracking the data. And when you're tracking, use something like macro factor, and you're tracking your biofeedback and you're lifting weights, generally, those come together in a very healthy way to give you so much awareness that it helps with the relationship with food, without even any other factors involved. And then other factors like, you know, mindful eating, and journaling and listening to your hunger cues. And all of the other things we talked about can be helpful. All right, the 13th reason you don't want to be dieting, is when you're in a period of very intense training, such as like preparing for a powerlifting meet, or a marathon, something like an endurance race. This is where nutritional periodization comes into play. Because the worst thing you can do is starve yourself going into something that requires performance, right, and endurance activities and powerlifting meets both meet that criteria. Because with a powerlifting meet, for example, yeah, you want to make weight, but you don't want to do it at the risk of, you know, tons of pounds off of your total, right, and energy and performance and chance of injury. So you've got a time the cut, and the duration of the cut at the right point, or ideally not having to cut at all like the way you set yourself up is to almost gain into the weight class if possible. You know, especially for most lifestyle power lifters or people who are recreational kind of competitors and not super hardcore about it. You're probably not wanting to do water cuts and all this extreme stuff anyway. And so you can phase it in just the right way. If you're an endurance athlete, kind of a similar deal. You don't want to be like, I know you want to be light on the scale because of the what am I trying to say, strength to weight ratio for speed. But you don't want to be doing that at the risk of your energy. And, in fact, a good prep protocol nutritional protocol leading up to something like a marathon, a very long endurance event is going to be increasing carbs and lowering the protein as you get closer and increasing calories quite extensively, which is the counter of being in a diet. So if you need to get to a certain weight for your racing, it should be done well ahead of time, just like with the wedding example. Same thing with the powerlifting meet. It's done ahead of time and you periodized the

Philip Pape 25:00

things. So you have a dedicated fat loss phase at some point, you have your offseason, right where you're also gaining or you're gaining skill and performance, you have a fat loss phase, but you also need to recover and get ready and prep for this event. Okay, number 14 out of 15. Here is if there is a significant life transition. So this is a major life change. This isn't the so before I talked about an upcoming event, this is more something that mentally or emotionally taxes you in, you know, can be a big move, you're moving to another state, you have a new job, maybe your income dropped, maybe, you know, there was death in the family, there's just so many things, even just having a child. I mean, we talked about pregnancy and breastfeeding, just having a new child where both the husband and wife or you know, the father and mother are potentially losing sleep and their whole schedule gets up ended their work schedule, their stress, right, all of those things, maybe your kid is going to college, whatever, any change that taxes you mentally and emotionally, where it's just very, very difficult to adhere to a fat loss diet. And again, we could always make trade offs, you could always say, well, I'll just go more conservatively, or I'll do refeeds or diet breaks. My whole point with this episode, is to have like a dog whistle for you. If you meet one of these scenarios, your ears perk up and you're like, Okay, Philip, I am in that scenario, I want to hear what you're saying. And maybe I should be very crystal clear with my goals and why I'm trying to do what I'm doing. And if one goal, one priority Trumps another, and that's fat loss, and you want to do it, that's your choice. That's obviously your choice. And in which case, which case nice little plug here, go back and listen to episode 170, which is how fast to lose weight for fat loss. And then you can pick the right rate of loss that might make sense for you. But back to the life transitions. It's a stress, it all comes down to stress, and not only adherence to your diet. But oftentimes when we have a major life change, we are disrupted from our routine, we're disrupted from our food access, like we don't necessarily have access to the same food potentially, or the schedule to make or prep that food, we might end up going out more often out of convenience. And we could develop some more unhealthy eating habits that then make it harder for fat loss. Right. Okay. And then the last one number 15. is, this is kind of a corner case, they call it in the biz, but medication side effects, medication side effects, so certain medications can impact weight management, they might increase your appetite to weight gain. And I'm not talking about GLP one agonists, which is a whole separate topic that I'm going to get into on some other episodes. Although, because in fact, if you're on one of those, then the whole point is it makes fat loss easier by reducing your hunger. But I'm talking about things that might increase your appetite might increase your weight gain. And they're kind of known side effects, or you notice that they're happening. This is where fat loss can be harder, because it's just very hard to adhere to it, it's going to be very individual, it depends on the side effects depends on the medication, this is where you should be working with a medical professional as well as potentially a coach who can if you still want to do fat loss could at least understand that there's this variable in there from your medication. So that wraps up the top 15 reasons that now may be the worst time to start a diet. So you know, when is the right time for you is probably when you're not facing any of these scenarios, to any large effect. And that's the key, it's a matter of degrees, we all have stress we all have sometimes poor sleep, we all have life events, you probably resonate with many of these scenarios. So it's really a matter of degree, if something like this is fairly ever present in your life, it may not be a good time to go into a dieting phase. Now the desire to start a fat loss diet may be strong, right? The force is strong with this one, I get it. But it's even more important than you think to, you know, always be assessing your current circumstances, and then address any potential roadblocks before diving in. That's all I'm asking you to do. So this may not be eliminating some of these things from your life that may not be possible. But you can either mitigate them, mitigate their impact on you, or set yourself up so that you have if then plans of action, right? If this happens, I can do this. If this happens, I can do this have little, you know plans in your back pocket. So that if one of these things that are in your life, ramp up to a point that might not be sustainable, you have a backup plan. So for example, you know, if my stress gets unbearable, due to my work obligations, I am going to increase my calories by half to eliminate increase to have to read a loss. Or I'm gonna go up to diet break for one week. But you can have these little things that you tell yourself it's okay to do it. I'm going to do that. And it's the trade off that's worth making.

Philip Pape 30:00

came from my health. And then of course, you're always going to be prioritizing things like stress management, sleep quality, nutrition, training, all the things that affect your overall health, right? All of these are important anyway, for sustainable fat loss. Even if everything's going quote, unquote, smoothly, you still want to do these things. Because the long game done right is actually the fastest path to success. Most of us have no problem losing weight. We've done it many, many, many times in our life. But many of us have not done it the right way. And we've had trouble keeping that weight off. So let's do it the right way. Right? If you're smart about it, you're going to take the time to prepare yourself mentally, to prepare yourself physically, and then you're just going to be better equipped to handle the challenges that come with a calorie deficit. Okay, and as I mentioned before, if you want my free video on how to set yourself up for a pre diet maintenance phase, so that you know exactly what your metabolism is, and what calorie macro targets to hit, when you are ready to get there as efficiently as possible, and no reverse dieting needed. That's an inside joke. For those who follow the podcast. Click the link in my show notes under episode resources for that free video. And if you want to get a head start right now, just go download macro factor from your app store, enter my code Whitson weights and start using it for free. My code will give you an extra three weeks on the trial period. That's Whitson weights all one word when you download and set up macro factor and that is all explained in the video too. So if you just want to go click the video, my show notes, you can do that. Alright, in our next episode 173 Why mindset alone won't solve your food and hormone struggles with Tanya Shaw, we're going to explore the limitations of the mind over matter mentality. You've heard it before. It's mind over matter. It's all in your mind. We're going to explore the limitations of that because it's not what it's cracked up to be. We're going to talk about how combining mindset with the understanding of body science is key to not just achieving results, but loving your results. You'll even learn how thoughts and emotions affect our body's physical functions, especially your hormones, and some simple techniques to help you actually shift your mindset to better support your health goals. So as always, make sure to hit follow right now in your podcast app to get notified when that episode comes out and to support the show. As always, stay strong. And I'll talk to you next time here on the wits and weights podcast.

Philip Pape 32:25

Philip Pape 5/10/24 Philip Pape 5/10/24

Ep 171: Big Butts, Strong Butts, We Love Them All! How to Train Your Glutes with Sue Bush

Are you dreaming of having the perfect glutes? Have you ever wondered how your diet and genes influence the shape of your butt? Ready to find out the most effective workout routines and strategies to sculpt your dream glutes? Philip welcomes Sue Bush, the co-owner of Physique Development, a certified personal trainer, fitness nutritionist, and competitive physique athlete, to discuss a topic that’s sure to interest many - how to develop a shapely, firm, and functional butt. She explains why we’re so fascinated with glutes, the benefits of glute development beyond aesthetics, and the most effective strategies for optimal results. Sue also shares insights on the role of nutrition, genetics, and individual response in glute development, providing practical tips for different ages and equipment availability.

Are you dreaming of having the perfect glutes? Have you ever wondered how your diet and genes influence the shape of your butt? Ready to find out the most effective workout routines and strategies to sculpt your dream glutes?

In this exciting episode, Philip (@witsandweights) welcomes Sue Bush, the co-owner of Physique Development, a certified personal trainer, fitness nutritionist, and competitive physique athlete. Sue, a co-contributor to the March issue of Body By Science, joins Philip to discuss a topic that’s sure to interest many - how to develop a shapely, firm, and functional butt. She explains why we’re so fascinated with glutes, the benefits of glute development beyond aesthetics, and the most effective strategies for optimal results. Sue also shares insights on the role of nutrition, genetics, and individual response in glute development, providing practical tips for different ages and equipment availability.

Sue’s journey in the fitness industry began in 2017, and she has since earned multiple certifications and competed in physique competitions for four seasons. With her passion for empowering women to prioritize their health and fitness, Sue specializes in helping individuals make sustainable lifestyle changes that align with their goals and schedules. Together with her husband, Alex Bush, and the rest of Team PD at Physique Development, Sue is committed to leading, educating, and inspiring generational change through the power of health and excellence.

*Today, you’ll learn all about:*

3:24 Why we love butts
8:12 Benefits of glute development
13:03 What to prioritize (training, nutrition) and how genetics play a role
19:23 Approach to training (exercises, programming, and individual response)
27:23 Training intensity and execution
36:05 The importance of logging and taking videos
42:53 The impact of exercise selection in glute training
53:30 Training over 40 in the context of back health
55:41 The question Sue wanted Philip to ask and her answer
1:00:55 Where to find Sue
1:01:30 Outro

Episode resources:

Episode summary:

When it comes to sculpting the perfect lower body, understanding the science behind muscle development is crucial. The latest episode features fitness expert Sue Bush, who unravels the complexities of personalized glute training. This isn't your average fitness discussion; it's an in-depth exploration of how your unique genetic makeup and lifestyle can influence the way you approach lower body workouts.

In our pursuit of aesthetic excellence, it's easy to fall into the trap of one-size-fits-all fitness regimens. However, Sue challenges this notion by emphasizing the need for a tailored approach. As we delve into the relationship between muscular functionality and aesthetics, listeners gain not just a blueprint for a stunning physique, but also the knowledge to enhance everyday movement and core strength.

Have you ever considered how your body's mechanics impact your fitness journey? Sue and the host discuss the importance of understanding and optimizing your individual body type for targeted muscle growth. They highlight the power of keeping a detailed log of your workouts, demonstrating how disciplined tracking can lead to significant gains and illuminate the path to peak performance. The underrated tool of video analysis also comes into play, offering an opportunity to perfect form and technique.

As the episode progresses, the conversation turns to the creation of a comprehensive glute program. Sue discusses exercises designed to challenge muscles from various angles, ensuring that listeners are equipped to build stronger glutes and a resilient core. Whether you're navigating muscle and fat gain or seeking post-surgery workout advice, this episode covers all bases. By the end, you'll be inspired to achieve the strong, functional lower body you've always wanted.

Now, let's touch on the role of genetics in training for glute growth. Sue brings to light how genetics heavily influence body composition and muscle development. She advocates for a shift from comparison to personal progress and highlights the necessity of adapting training techniques to suit individual genetic profiles for optimal muscle development. It's about understanding your own body and setting realistic expectations based on your unique characteristics.

Moreover, the significance of video analysis in training cannot be overstated. Sue points out the common oversight among coaches who don't observe their clients' training sessions. Regular video feedback is essential for identifying gaps in a client's regimen and ensuring that training intensity is balanced with recoverability.

Another crucial topic discussed is the importance of keeping a logbook. It's a simple yet effective way to track progress and make informed decisions about your training. From recording workouts to noting external factors like time of day and pre-workout meals, a logbook can be a game-changer for anyone serious about their fitness goals.

Lastly, Sue covers the principles of glute training for growth. Selecting the right exercises and understanding muscle anatomy can drastically improve engagement and execution during workouts. She explains how different movements can target the glutes effectively and stresses the importance of a well-designed program that includes progression and recovery.

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Transcript

Sue Bush 00:00

When people make those very specific suggestions, and they just say, this is the one thing that you need to grow your glutes that drives me crazy because there are so many things that you need to know to be able to do that. It's not just you need to eat these foods to grow your glutes or you need to do this exercise to grow your glutes. I think that when we look at glutes specifically, I have seen firsthand especially with being in the competitor round of people can have very great genetics that they store their body fat on their glutes, where I'm sure some of you guys listening to this could be like, Oh, when I gain weight, it immediately goes to my core first, or immediately goes to my arms. First People distribute weight all different ways.

Philip Pape 00:43

Sue Bush 02:58

Yeah, thanks so much for having me. And for the wonderful intro makes me sound really cool.

Philip Pape 03:02

Well deserved. I'm glad we could connect, you know, since being on that, that issue of bills together. And I think I reached out to you and said we need to collaborate here with our podcast, and share with our audiences. What's going on. And one of the things you've been talking about lately, on your IG and elsewhere is glute training. I know you've had some long Q and A's on your podcast, and I encourage people to go check those out as well. But my first question to you is, why do we love butts so much? What is the what is the attraction to this area of the body? Is it social, cultural? Is it you know, a functional thing? Where does this all come from? Well, we

Sue Bush 03:37

could refer back to songs back in the 70s, from KC and the Sunshine Band like Shake, shake, shake, or queen of fat bottom girls, or even go to the 90s where we have Sir Mix A Lot, singing about how much he likes big butts, and even to present day songs like Anaconda going very viral, but at the core of it, it's actually primal. So Dr. David Lewis, who said that our male ancestors developed an attraction to women with big butts because it increased their chances of having offspring that would live long enough to pass on their DNA. So it's really an indicator of fertility. If you think back to the caveman days, they're looking and they're wanting to see someone that does have that fertility can carry on the DNA. And there was also a 2014 study done that found that women with a larger waist to hip ratios had higher levels of the hormone needed to get pregnant, and therefore possessed and crease changes are increased chances of fertility. There's also the aspect of you need strong legs and the ability to balance with your center of gravity changing with pregnancy. So it showed that women with larger butts could finish the pregnancy and having that body fat because normally to have bigger glutes you have to have a little bit higher body fat was a sign of being able to support the pregnancy as well. So again, if we go back to the caveman days, if someone was very, very thin, they might not be Well to carry a pregnancy or get pregnant. Whereas if you had a little junk in the trunk, then that was a good signaling of like, Hey, you can carry on the DNA you can sustain a pregnancy and be able to have a healthy child. And another role in this is going to be pop culture. So think of what is popular and what we consume constantly think about things like the Kardashians, which are extremely popular, namely Kim and we think back to like that champagne photoshoot she did. butts were all the rage and even thinking about female rappers like I mentioned the song Anaconda, as well as a lot of female rappers not only rapping about butts, but also being having that larger behind. So like Nicki Minaj, Magda, stallion, Cardi B, dosha, cat, and more and even the popularity of bbls across the land. So there's multiple things I do believe that at the core of it, it is primal, but past that it has really transformed into like that societal and pop culture. Because again, we we consume so much that that then pushes us into what we like, what we dislike, what we find attractive, all of those different things. So

Philip Pape 06:10

then why do you care about it? Personally,

Sue Bush 06:12

I care about it, because I always didn't have a button. And it's kind of like you always want what you don't have. And when I got into lifting, I just felt extremely empowered by being able to truly shape my body and be able to change the way that I looked. And it was something where I could see muscles that I had never seen before. It was something where I always struggled with glute growth, I got made fun of it. And Middle School in high school being told that my back went straight down to my legs, I was even having a conversation with my sister about it. And she was just like, people don't get it like, we are not genetically blessed to have glutes within our family that if you see the the other people in my family, it's not like, oh, that's kind of where they store fat, or that's where the genetics are. And so I always wanted to acquire it. Now part of it also was because of competing in bikini competitions, which I don't do anymore. But that was something that was needed for the look is to have bigger glutes, but I just love, I just love how it makes me feel to be able to, again, have that shape and really go after and say, hey, I want this muscle bigger, and then being able to go and do that. So even though I'm sure there is some influence from pop culture, it's also the aspect of it was something that I always wanted for my own self competence. And then the more I learned about glutes, the more I saw the benefit of having glutes overall, you hit

Philip Pape 07:38

on so many great points that highlight the positive aspects of physique development. And I think there are many. And that is, like you said, being able to have this this power over your body, whatever that is, it could be, you know, an asymmetry, or it could simply be just overall size and strength and function. And you were talking recently on one of your episodes about, I'll say, the vanity or the visual aspects of physique development. And there's no wrong reason for doing any of this stuff. Right? If it's positive and contributes toward our well being I, in my opinion, there's no wrong reason to do it. So I was curious, you know, of that for you. And I want to, I want to segue into the benefits of developing a glute, we can definitely talk about the aesthetics, which probably doesn't take long, long discussion, we kind of just covered it, but the strength and functional benefits. And one thing you did mention was the little bit of higher body fat may be needed as well. And at least tied into the history of, of the glutes, I do want to bring that in as well, as we talk about training and developing don't forget that point of it. In case there's a little hack there that people need to know about. So what are the benefits we and then we can get into some specifics? Yeah,

Sue Bush 08:41

well, the big benefit is that allows you to function as a human being by having glute tissue. I really like to tell this story because I, when I first got started personal training, I was training in person. And of course, one of my first few clients where my parents, as good parents do just to support their kids. And I remember, I was having my dad do hip thrusts. And he was like, I'm not trying to, like grow big glutes, like, do I need to be doing this? And I was like, yes, because as you age, and you are already aging, this is something that you are going to need to be able to age gracefully, and to age while you can still function. Because, of course, there's the aesthetic side. And I think that a lot of times people try to push like, this is good for your health. And it's like if it we just knew it was good for our health, don't you think there'd be a lot of other things that we would already be doing. But we have to think about us as human beings and there is that vanity side of okay, I want to look a certain way, which I think is so good to be able to focus on because like you said, if it contributes to you positively, why not. But when we're looking at the glutes, they're going to play a key role in hip stability and pelvis stability, which is going to be so important for things like walking, which we all do jumping, sprinting, strength training, and it's also something where if we look at the different parts of the glutes, they are going to help with hip extension and being able to externally and internally rotate and abduct. So moving the thigh away from the body. And it's also going to allow to keep our bodies upright and making sure that our bodies are pushed forward to a certain degree. So it's going to allow you to function in those everyday tasks, which is what I always like to boil it down to is, okay, yes, here's the aesthetic side. And yes, you can want to grow your glutes. But let's also talk about why it's important. And how it helps you to just be a functioning human being not even talking about, I want to build glutes so big that everyone thinks I got to bbl. But more so of I want to be able to walk as I age I hear so often. And I know we're gonna touch on that a little bit later about as you age, and what that looks like, for different generations. But a lot of times you hear people want to say they want to play with their grandkids, or they want to play with their kids. And it's like a part of playing is being able to walk or stand upright, and your glutes are going to be a major mover in that. And not to mention how the pelvis then also like goes hand in hand with your core. And being able to have that in a good spot, which also goes hand in hand with your glutes. Because when you see people that often have like an anterior pelvic tilt, it's normally that they have really weak core muscles that they can't pull their core in. And it's having that tilted over movement. And that can be from also having weak glutes. And so being able to see how this goes into just how your body literally stands, allows you to be like, okay, yes, I can want huge glutes, but I can also want it because it allows me to function as a human being. Yeah. So

Philip Pape 11:43

what you're saying is it's part of the core, right? Because sometimes people think of the core is just the the rest is truly part of that whole. Yeah, right. And the thing about pushing forward, explain that just a little bit for listeners when you said, because you talked about the abduction, you also talked about posture and being upgraded. What do you mean by the pushing forward,

Sue Bush 12:00

so the aspect of your glutes like I talked about within your pelvis, that's going to be something that if your pelvis isn't sturdy, then it can put you in a place. And it can also be depending on what it looks like for how you use your glutes that if your glutes are weak, it can force your body that when it's not balanced, that it compensates with other things. And so then it puts you in a place where it's really difficult because like you talked about with that core box as a whole, that where you have like, not just the back of your hips and where your glutes are across your like hip Ridge as a whole. But you're also thinking of like your extensors, and being able to keep you upright and like push you forward to the degree of not like, Okay, I'm going to like lean forward all the way but more so of the degree of we have forward lean in our bodies and how our rib cages like stand as a whole, that we're not just completely straight up and down. There is some movement there within our body. Yeah,

Philip Pape 13:00

love that almost like an athletic position, if you will, you know, you mentioned getting made fun of for not having much of a but I got made fun of for having too much of a but for a guy. And I wonder about the genetic differences. They're like, how much of that is where we store fat versus muscle? And how consequential are those genetics? Like you've already mentioned, you can make a change to that. But what what is the impact of those genetics? When we think of our baseline before we get into Okay, now, what do we do for training and nutrition? Yeah,

Sue Bush 13:29

I think one part of that, especially with you talking about like male versus female, it can be on your limb lengths as a whole and how you're able to move through different movements. So for example, my husband does have big glutes, and I've always been jealous of them. But his body is basically primed to be able to buy us glutes. And so the way that he has for his femur length, and how his core length so I personally have a longer torso and I have long femurs. So if you know anything about just what that means for your overall body levers, that means it's going to be very difficult to be able to target your glutes and so no movement Am I set up in to automatically bias glutes, whereas my husband, again, his levers are all set up that anytime he does any type of squat, he's biasing his glutes. Anytime he does like any kind of like stepping even like a step up. He is majorly biasing his glutes where for me, I had to kind of play around with how I get set up in the movement. So I think part of it is not only going to be I mean genetics are going to play into your limb length to a certain degree, but it's also just going to be how your body is laid out or the levers that you are able to do different exercises. So if you even think about things I always like to use the example of people say like, Oh, I'll never look like that person. And it's like, you may never look like that person because your body is built completely different not in regards of where your fat is, or or how lean you are, I'm talking in regards to, like, if someone has really short glute insertions, they might be able to show and have like a really bubbly glutes just because they don't have as much muscle to fill in and it's able to protrude more and give a different look. Whereas I personally have really long blue insertions, which is great in the term of being able to build like these long diamond glutes, but it's also a lot of glute to fill out, like think about in the fact of if you have someone who is six foot versus by five, and you even think about that, in terms of bodybuilding, the reason they do by height, and then also by weight is because there's such a differential in that of each inch, you can add 10 to 20 pounds to your body, and it still look the same as someone else that might be an inch or two shorter than you. And so being able to keep that in mind of what it looks like to actually add muscle to that tissue, instead of using it in a discouraging way of oh, I'm never going to look like that person. How I've really turned it around for myself is okay, what are the things like? How can I learn about myself to then reset my expectations, and then be able to have new goals for myself, if I can still look at someone and say, like, oh, they have a great physique, or I would love to look like them. But instead of then tearing myself apart, because I don't look like them, I kind of backtrack and I don't pick them apart. But I'll just say like, oh, they have a shorter femur and they have a shorter torso. So that's going to make it that they have a much better way of being able to bias their glutes or they have those shorter insertions. So that I can just be kinder to myself and be able to realize what that looks like. But genetics do play a huge, huge role. When it comes to your, your glutes, and just how your body looks, it's going to be something where it's not the only factor like we've already mentioned. But it's something that when we have genetics, that's also going to determine where your body fat is stored. And I think that when we look at glutes specifically, I have seen firsthand, especially with Bing, in the competitor round of people can have very great genetics that they store their body fat on their glutes, where I'm sure some of you guys listening to this could be like, Oh, when I gain weight, it immediately goes to my core first, or it immediately goes to my arms. First People distribute weight all different ways. And sometimes people are very lucky. And it goes to their glutes first. And you see that why I mentioned competing, because you see it firsthand when you're trying to lose weight, because you're doing extreme weight loss of oh, that actually wasn't tissue that was really well distributed fat, which is very lucky for people, I'm not hating on it. I'm jealous of it that that is the case. But again, genetics play a huge role in not only your limb lengths, your levers, but then just how you're going to distribute fat and how easy it is for you to gain muscle overall. Because I'm also sure we know some people who barely work out and have muscles where you might feel like I've been trying really hard for years, and I don't have that same muscle tissue. And that like those freaks of nature normally come to fruition within competing again, because you see these people and they just build this insane physique. And it's like, how did they do that? It's like, oh, genetics played a role not to take away from their hard work at all, it takes hard work regardless, but some people are just a little bit more blessed about how they're everything, all their anthropometrics lay out for them. You're

Philip Pape 18:28

speaking my language. So I love this. I think you just hit genetics. And rather than make it this like thing we have, and let's move on, it's actually we need to understand our genetics very intimately through our training and biofeedback and collecting data and measurements. And I'm sure there's lots of things we can get into of how to do that. Besides just you see it, and you know it in many cases, but things like muscle, belly insertions, limb lanes, I love all of that, because the listener can then say, Okay, I've been doing X movement, religiously, decent amount of volume, I'm responsive to building muscle, but not in this one part of my body, even though that movement is supposed to be giving me that that's probably a signal that that's not the best for you, assuming that's not a form or other issue. So I love genetics as a baseline of awareness, and then not beating yourself up for it, but being kind to yourself and knowing that this is data that you can now have be empowered from and take action from. So totally love that. And so that that leads into once you have that baseline information, what should we be measuring? And then we can get into the training approach, you know, all the people, the things people are waiting for, like, you know, what, what movements do I do? How do I adjust for me? How do I program and things like that? So how do we start and then get into that discussion? Yeah,

Sue Bush 19:40

as far as what we should measure or kind of keep track of one thing I like to say is if you want to see progress, track progress, and that's where a lot of people fall short is they get so into, I want to see results. I feel like I'm working hard. And it's like are you looking at the data because the only way to move forward is with data driven decision. And that's not just in training that is within everything, whether you're trying to post content on social media, whether you're trying to grow a business, whether you're trying to grow your glutes, you need to be able to look at data to make decisions. And so if you have no idea, you're not tracking your training volume, you're not taking check in photos, you don't know what your weight is, you have no idea how much you're eating, or what that looks like consistency day to day, you have no idea what your steps are, or how long you're sitting in a day. And you don't know how much water you have. If you're not tracking any of that, then how can you expect to see results forward? And so of course, we could go through an extensive list. And even just the list I made of you might say, Oh, that seems like a lot to track. And it's like, Yes, this is hard work period, there. Yes, there are some different things you can do to make sure you're working smarter, not harder. But at the end of the day, you are going to have to put effort forward. And that might mean tracking some metrics. And that's what I always go to when people get started. They're like, Well, how do I do this? How do I do this? How do I do this? And I'm like, why don't you just track what you're doing for a week? Let's circle back on that baseline. And let's make decisions off of that. And people get really antsy. And they're like, well, aren't you just going to tell me what the plan is. And it's like, I can't make a plan, if I don't know the data to then make a thing because if I just say, Oh, just go ahead and get 8000 steps. And just go ahead and do this, it might be that that person's getting 2000 steps a day. And I just told them to go to 8000. Or it might be that person's getting 16,000 steps a day. And I just said get at least 8000. And since I said at least they're going off the charts, and we're getting all this inflammation, possibly and not getting enough food in place. Because I didn't know what the data was. And so the biggest thing I would tell you, regardless of what you track, just track something, even if you just start with one or two things, I'm not saying go from tracking, nothing to track everything. But maybe it's starting at, okay, let me just track my food for a week, not trying to hit specific macros. Let me just see what I'm eating in a week. Okay, maybe from there, I go ahead and I add on my steps, then I go ahead and I add on my water intake, whatever it may be, just tracking some progress is going to be so much better than nothing. But specifically within glute growth. I think that like food and training, obviously go hand in hand with so many things. People hear that time and time again, you might wonder Okay, which one is more important? I think that kind of opens the conversation of like, what came first the chicken or the egg. It's like, both are important period. But if we're looking at some things I think I like to look at if you don't know anything about nutrition, and you already have somewhat of a regular training routine, regardless of if we're going to consider your training, but right or quite wrong. If you already have some sort of training routine, and you're doing nothing with nutrition, then I would recommend starting with nutrition. But if you're in a place where you have gotten some education about nutrition, and you haven't really gotten into training, then let's start with training. And so I don't think it's a one size fits all of Hey, start with this thing, or this is the thing that you need to focus on. And when people make those very specific suggestions, and they just say, this is the one thing that you need to grow your glutes, that drives me crazy, because there are so many things that you need to know, to be able to do that. It's not just you need to eat these foods to grow your glutes, or you need to do this exercise to grow your glutes. It's a multifaceted thing that you need to be able to then look at yourself and reflect and say, What do I need to focus on a little bit more? And have honest conversations with yourself? Because that's something where I see and I'm sure you do a lot across the board is that someone might be like, Well, I am training consistently. And it's like, Are you like, are you actually like, let's have an honest conversation with ourselves about what that looks like. Or even saying, like, I train hard. It's like, okay, are you? Are you tracking your training sessions at all? Are you just trying to gauge it by if you feel tired at the end of it, or if you feel sore the next day. And so really digging into what it means for each person, because it also means different things for each person, is the big thing that I try to dive into, especially if I'm talking about a client or someone's like asking me a question in the DMS of like, Should I do this? Or should I do this? I'm like, Well, why do you want to do that? What does this other thing I normally respond with asking more questions? Instead of just giving an answer? I'm

Philip Pape 24:25

laughing inside because this is what happens to get to coaches who agree and all this stuff. And I think the listener, they've heard a lot of this, like, you're the female version of me and with a lot of what you're saying. I mean, everything from the tracking. Yeah, you're so right. Like, is it harder to track? Or is it harder to just continue having no clue why what you're doing is not giving you the result you want? Like that's one of the things to say, Yeah, it's hard but like tracking your budgets hard to and it's better than being broke, you know,

Sue Bush 24:50

choose your heart. Like just decide which hard do you want to take because those are all going to be hard, and it might feel like something might feel easier. But is that Short Term comfort long. Yes, comfort, because you have to think about that to have it might feel like it's easier in the moment to do something else. But in the long run, how is that going to make you feel because that's how I felt even about fitness is that I used to make fun of people who ate healthy, and we're like working out because part of it was likely because I wasn't doing it. And I felt insecurity about that, whatever it may be. I also just felt that I didn't understand that people could truly be happy doing that I was coming from a place of like, that doesn't make me happy to train and do all these other things or to eat a certain way. But it came down from also I was living day to day with being depressed because of the foods that I was eating. And from my lack of movement, and the lack of keeping promises to myself, and I literally had to hit rock bottom before I realized, like, oh, this easy isn't actually easy. This is causing most of the issues in my life. I am the one contributing to my own downfall here. And that's what I mean about honest conversations is it you can say I don't have enough time, I don't have enough this, I get it. Like, I'm not here to tell you like you do have enough time, you just need to do X but you you get to decide what you do with your time. So if you want to continue to say, I can't do that, or that doesn't make me feel good, or that feels hard. You have to ask yourself all right, then are you okay? Loving the way that you're living? And you can't expect to see the results? If you, again, are not wanting to put an effort, I always talk about having to align your effort with your expectations. If you have a certain expectation of what you want to occur, does your effort match that? And most of the time, it's no, and you have to fill that gap of you either have to lower your expectation, or you have to increase your effort. Yeah,

Philip Pape 26:48

there's so much reframing there. I mean, it does often come down to identity and self talk and expectations. You also mentioned individuals who asked you these questions that are always going to have an independent answers. And that's why you follow up with questions back to them. But I also like how you said if you've got if you've got a piece taken care of, maybe it's this other piece that we want to focus on, even if it isn't optimal over here. I think on one of your podcasts, you talked about harmony versus balance, right? Like we don't, we're not trying to balance everything in perfect proportion to everything else, we're trying to integrate everything. And if there's one area that's lagging, maybe that's where we focus, let's set the context. Then for the glute training discussion. If someone is listening, who does have most of the things in place, let's say they have been tracking their food, they understand their maintenance calories, they know how to eat plenty of protein, they're eating nutrient dense foods, things like that. And they're training three or four days a week with typical hypertrophy or strength program. And now they're like my glutes aren't where I want them to be. Where would we go from that point in terms of training considerations, or anything else,

Sue Bush 27:50

the first two things that I look at within that are going to be training intensity and training execution. So we actually we have a staff of coaches, and we, one of the coaches had reached out to me and was like, Hey, this is what's going on with this client. They are doing this, this and this, they're checking all the boxes. But here are the pictures, I'm still not seeing the results that I want to see with this client. And I said, Have you ever seen a video of them exercising? And they're like, well, they send some exercise videos, but it's always when they are doing very lightweight, and trying to nail down the movement. I said, Do you know that for a fact, are you making that assumption that that is that what they're doing in that video, and they were like, Oh, wow, I feel like such an idiot for not looking at the sooner I was like, you don't need to feel like an idiot. This is just the gap. And this is where a lot of coaches and especially online coaches fall short is they do not look at the people training, that is the most massive thing that you miss out with, with training online is you don't actually get to see the person train. And that's why it is a very huge part of our service is you are going to send videos of your training and we mark in the training, these are the videos I want to see this is when I want to see them. And this is the reason I want to see it, whether it's checking your form or checking your intensity on something. Because I find most of the time, even if someone's like, Oh yeah, I'm hitting this RP, and I am training hard. It's like Ben, let me see it. Let's see what failure looks like for you. And that's not to say that you should take everything to failure. I think that that that's where I struggle with talking about intensity is I feel like people then go to the extreme and they're like, I need to be limping out of the gym. And I need to take everything to failure and actually be dying. And it's like, you need to again, put in effort. You do need to have intensity. But there is a push and pull to that when it comes to your recoverability and what it looks like for the goal of the training. And so I always look at the execution and intensity and I've even found when it comes to my clients, that the clients that normally our coaches themselves, they'll be like, I just want to learn from you or I just want the accountability. And then I'm like then I need to see the these videos and they're like, I know how to do the exercise, like I'm a coach too. And I was like, All right, then like, send the video, and I'll tell you, it's all good to go. And that's normally they are shocked, of like, Oh, I'm not having the best execution and this or I'm not having the right intensity within what I'm doing. And so I would highly recommend that if you are working with a coach to send videos to your coach, even if it feels like you don't want to whip out your phone in the gym, and you don't want to have the tripod and all that stuff. Again, that's one thing of are you willing to have less results by not having that slight discomfort of having your phone out? Or are you willing to take the video to make sure that you get the best results possible. And so I would highly recommend that you're sending in regular videos, that's something we also say, as the clients that have the best results. Time and time again, are the clients that regularly send an exercise videos. And I will even like nag, some of my clients have like I haven't seen videos in this amount of weeks. And like I need to check back on this, instead of just saying we're going through the motions. The most value that I got from this was the fact that I had someone that I could talk to about anything and that there was going to be no judgment, it was just Well, here are your goals, here's the best way that you're going to achieve it. And then let's work together to help you feel inspired and motivated to do that. And a lot of people out there trying to be coaches, and not all of them have done the work and also just be a genuine person that is positive. And coming from the heart in terms of wanting to help and Philip really embody all of those qualities, I would recommend him to just about anyone that's looking to achieve goals in that realm of their nutrition and building new habits. So if you have a coach, then go ahead and send them a video, if you don't have a coach, then I will have a video that I'm going to send a fill up for him to put in the show notes. But it's me going through like RP and intensity. And I think that that's going to be really, really helpful because I go through a whole training session or most of our training session, and I talk through in my head of why I'm writing it a certain RPE. And what you have to keep in mind for them. And then our YouTube channel also has almost every exercise of how to do the exercise execution because that is so so important to be able to have the correct execution. But even just videoing yourself, like that goes such a long way, even if you don't have a coach that you're sending it to. Because I do not want you trying to look over in the mirror and make sure that your form is correct. Take a video of yourself, go back and watch it I do that personally still like yes, I have a coach and I send stuff to the coach, but not everything because sometimes I take a video and I'm like, Oh, I can just make this small tweak. And then I'm good to go. And I will watch our own videos, compare, make sure that it's all set, and use that time and time again. So regardless of if you have a coach or not, there is an actionable plan for you recording yourself training and being able to send that and again, having those honest conversations of is this hard? Versus is this reaching the actual RPE that I need to because I have very many times gone in, done a set and been like, Man, that was hard. I'm not gonna go up and wait. And then I think back and I say, How many more reps could I have done at that weight? And sometimes I will, I'll be like, Oh, that was hard. That was definitely an RP a. And then I'll ask myself, how many more reps could you have done, and I'll be like, maybe three or four. And it's like that just went from an eight to a six RPE real quick. And I realize how much stronger I am. And having that logbook is a big, big part of it. Because if you are not tracking things in a logbook, whether it's a digital logbook, or an actual logbook, then do not complain about your progress. I swear to God, do not complain about your progress if you are not tracking anything within your training, because I have notes and it not only helps me to cut out all the guessing of what weight I should go to even if the training stimulus changes, even if the order of the exercise change, even if anything changes, I can make a very, very, very good educated guess. And almost always be within five to 10 pounds of where I need to be on the first time I do something because of keeping that logbook, not just because oh, she's a coach, this is what she dedicates her time to and all of that. It's because I take the extra effort and I track these extra things. And I make notes. So it'll say this was a little bit easy starting off, go to this wait next week, or this is what it's not just keeping the weight because if you're like oh, I can keep track of like I did 80 pounds for this last time. It's like it's not just knowing your general wait for it because again, the rep range can change. The set number can change the tempo can change where it is in this session can change so many things. But then there's also different forms of improvement of it's not just I just increased in weight, you could have had better form at the same way. You could have had better engagement I The same way you could have had better tempo at the same way, you could have used the same weight and gotten more reps or done it for more sets or done it with less rest, and between the sets. So there's so many things that go into it. And there's no physical way unless you have a perfect photographic memory for you to not track those things and think that you're just going to go into the gym and know what to do. Because you're likely wasting your time trying to pick the right weight, than when you finally get to the right weight, you're you might have accumulated volume from trying to pick the right weight, you're elongating your sessions, you're making it confusing for yourself, and you're not being able to just go in there and train. And that's where people are also getting frustrated. Of I'm not able to see the results that I want. And it's like, yeah, because you're not going in there and tracking what you need to to get it done. So having a logbook is outside of just filming yourself is going to be a huge part of the intensity to make sure that you've got everything locked down. So once they are doing a podcast with someone you agree with everything, because then you're just like it is

Philip Pape 36:04

it is. But this is super important. What this section right here, I mean, literally, we just cut this out as its own masterclass. Because the answer to the question of what do we do for our training for glutes wasn't, you know, do these movements or follow this program, right, it was train hard execute, use the proper intensity, and here are the tools for how to do that this is applicable to everything in your training. And it's super important. And when you were talking about videos, I just again, I was chuckling inside because how many times have I told people just take a damn video, send it in, you're gonna you're gonna accelerate your personal growth so much from one video, versus banging your head against potentially terrible form for the next, you know, three months of your training that

Sue Bush 36:41

also compounding and causing aches and pains. And you're like, I can't train because I just feel awful. And it's like, yeah, or that could be because of how your training. Yeah,

Philip Pape 36:51

and it gets worse and worse as the load goes up, right? Because you're just doing bad form with heavier load, you're actually reminding me of other areas outside of fitness at all, like public speaking. I mean, one of the ways I got better at speaking was videoing myself and having other people look at it and myself look at it. Anything you do in life that you can record or take data, it goes back to your original principle is going to accelerate the growth. You mentioned some really good things right? Like not looking at the mirror, I think that's funny, because you could get really hurt like twisting your Yeah, look, don't do that. Even if the mirror is ahead of you just don't do that.

Sue Bush 37:24

I'm going to keep my check to make sure my spines in alignment, but then I'm going to actually just completely turn my spine and put it in a very an advantageous position. Yes,

Philip Pape 37:33

I mean, you know, maybe if you're doing bicep curls or something like that, it's fine. But and then you said log everything. And by logging, not just logging your training. You know, we do talk about that a lot like using a notebook or an app or whatever it makes sense. But like you said, there are many other kind of hidden variables, if you will, there's things that change from what you planned, there are the speed or the RPE, or AR AR, however you want to measure the intensity and the movement, which you can correlate with your video, like you said, are you slowing down or what is hard look like to you, because not everybody slows down the same way. And I found that like on certain movements, I'm going to slow down more than others as I get to that RPE. Also, I don't know if you mentioned it, but like all the stuffs happening outside the gym, like if you have that information as well, that's going to affect your training session, too. Even

Sue Bush 38:17

on my training log at the top of it, I say the time in which I'm training. So if ever a weight is off, or like you know, those times where you're just like this just felt hard today, or things just felt heavy today. So for that reason, I have things written at the top and I say what time I'm training, how many meals iPad, and then I just say the date that it is. And then if I have any extra notes. So if I say something like I'm on my cycle, I'm having cramps, or this is I ate too far away from when I'm training or if I just see it, and it's like, Hey, you're training at 5pm and you've only had two meals in, then that might affect how your strength is or I'll know how to pour night asleep last night, whatever it may be. So that when I'm looking back at numbers, it's not just I'm taking the number from last week and putting it into this week, I'm looking at the factors from the previous session and taking that into the following one. Because there's been so many times I've even surprised myself being in a place where it's like, okay, I was hitting this RP and this was really hard last session. And then the next session, I'm like, Oh, I just kind of zoomed past that way. And it was great. And it's not like, yes, there is the adaptations that you have in the growth. All of that is a part of it, for sure. But it's also the aspect of, okay, if you had better factors going into it, and you were able to be more primed for it, then you're going to have a better session. And that just it reinforces so many things by keeping that data. Because anytime I'm thinking like, Oh, that was hard, then I'll look back and I'll be like, Oh yeah, cuz you're doing 20 more pounds than you did the week before. So it's okay that it's difficult, or it was hard. That's because you didn't sleep well last night and you got over 8000 more steps than you normally get the day before so your legs might be a little bit sore. And so understanding the data and being able to take that into it. Fish allows you to, again, reframe things so much better, that you don't always have to fight against yourself. I learned, I guess it wasn't that many years ago. But I did learn within the past few years that life is a lot better when you're not constantly fighting yourself. There are many other things to fight with. There are many other things that you're going up against. There are many things outside of your control, but control the controllables. And don't fight against yourself. And so if I've seen a, these are the things going on, then I'm not going to take that and either tear myself down, or try to do the impossible up against what's already stacked. It's like, this is what I know to be true. What changes do I need to make because of that? Or what do I need to take into consideration because of that? So then it's not that I constantly feel like, my favorite is I'm hitting a plateau. It's like,

Philip Pape 40:53

the buzzword of the day it?

Sue Bush 40:56

Is it a plateau? Or did you just not know what data you are even looking at? And so you just stepped on the scale, maybe three times within a week, and it's the same number or you feel like your quote, use the same way and can't progress? It's like, let's look at the other data. And then let's really determine is this a plateau or not? Because I will tell you eight times out of 10 it's not normally a plateau?

Philip Pape 41:22

Yeah, so good. That's so good. That is the first thing is that 10 times out

Sue Bush 41:26

of 10. But you know, I'll give some people the benefit of the doubt that it could be so eight times out it did. Yeah.

Philip Pape 41:31

And I mean, if it's like if we define plateau is just data hasn't moved, factually, that may be a plateau, but like you said, there could be, you know, five variables playing against each other that kind of offset. And then therefore this, this one will didn't change. But something else is going on there. Even recently.

Sue Bush 41:46

I mean, I have had a lot go on personally in my life. That's been a lot. And so I could have been said, Oh, I'm plateaued right now. And it's like, no, it's just that fitness isn't the number one focus because your stress bucket is overflowing, and you only have one stress bucket. And so you had to bring training volume down. So that's just not the main thing that you're going to see progress. And right this second does not mean you're plateauing does not mean you'll never see results, it just means that you have to again, be honest with yourself about what's the priority, what you are dedicating your time and energy to and what that looks like, instead of just claiming that something isn't going the way that you want it to maybe you haven't given it enough time, and you just want things to happen faster. And I mean, spoiler alert, we'd all like things to happen faster, better, stronger, easier, all of that. But as my parents said, fair comes once a year, if you miss it, it's your own darn fault.

Philip Pape 42:41

There you go. There's another thing I said recently, it's, it's gonna go as fast as it's going to go if you're doing it, right. Like that's it, it's just gonna go as fast that's as fast as you can go is when you're doing it, right. It may be slower than you want. Okay, so now somebody is dialed in on their training and their execution, their intensity, they're taking videos, maybe they have a coach, or maybe they're just they're listening to these podcasts and actually taking action, like we suggest, they're logging everything, and now they're like my glutes still have more opportunity to get bigger. So we're 45 minutes in and now people want to know, Okay, does it come down to exercise selection programming, like what what are the next steps,

Sue Bush 43:17

I will say that it's not ever going to be one particular exercise or one rep scheme or a certain amount of sets or a specific intensity, there's not going to be a perfect answer for that. But if you have nailed down your intensity and your execution, and you're doing all the other things within food and rest and recovery, all that jazz, then I would say we're looking at exercise selection overall. And part of it like I kind of already talked about is going to be what exercises work for you. And that is not synonymous with what exercises do you like doing is going to be what exercises work for you. So a good example of this, and this goes even just hand in hand with glute training overall, back squats, back squats can 100% target your glutes. I'm not here to dispute that or to argue that that is a fact that you can target your glutes with a back squat. For me personally because of having a long torso and longer femurs back squat and targeting my glutes is very very difficult because of the forward lean necessary to target my glutes and how the bar path needs to go to allow it to be a movement where my hips are moving back. It is extremely difficult for me to do so output wise it doesn't make sense for me to hammer down and say well back squats are what the answer for me to get in. That's not saying you shouldn't do back squats to grow glutes just for me specifically might not be the best exercise for output. But I could swap that over to we actually have a Cybex squat press for leg press and that is mimicking the back squat. But with I have not only more stabilization so I can have more output but it just allows me to push harder be cuz I'm not having to worry about carrying this load and bending my body in this position, that doesn't always work for me. But talking about back squats in general, I would say that if you're trying to grow your glutes, they can be a part of the program. But I want to make it a main focus, just because when we look at the systemic fatigue, that is going to happen from doing back squats, because when we talk about exercise selection, we're not only talking about okay, what exercises are going to be best. But we also want to keep in mind what that looks like for your overall intensity, and then your overall volume, and how much volume because when we're looking at hypertrophy, when we're looking at growth, it is going to be a volume gain to a certain extent, and how much volume you can get on the muscle. If we're using back squats as our main mover for glutes, you can't get in as many back squats or after you do your set of back squats, if you try to go into a bunch of other glute movements, you are not only going to be absolutely taxed from the whole fatigue for your whole body that went into the back squats. But it's also putting you in a place where I mean that's going to go into you can't perform other exercises. And that's even something within programming that people get hurt because they do something and they are going at a certain intensity, then they try to go into another movement that is going to require a lot of stabilization, like a back squat requires a lot of stabilization, because there's not that extra stabilization in place like machines create stabilization for you. And so if you're thinking about how can I bias this and not have my other muscles or the muscle I need to work get so fatigued, then you want to keep that in mind. But I also like to be able to think about what it looks like for what position you're training that muscle in. So there's research to show that lengthen position is best for hypertrophy. But all three lengths are going to be needed to have more complete growth, like more total growth overall. So when I always mention those back to back, because I don't want someone to say okay, I'm only going to do lengthen exercises, because they do go you need to do all of them within shorten mid range and lengthen, to be able to have the best growth overall. So what I would advise that obviously, this is going to be more general information. Overall, I'm not personally programming for each and every one of you. But I would say pick two exercises that challenge the glutes most in the lengthen position, and then one to two exercises that challenge the glutes most in the shortened position. So some examples of this for being able to get in the lengthen position are going to be like a bent knee RDL that would be great for getting your glutes in lengthened position, or like I already mentioned, have a leg press when you have the right foot positioning and all of that to be able to get the glutes in the lengthened position as well as just because of squat slash a leg press or going to be like a split squat, that type of movement, you're doing a squat movement, then a split squat is another great option to get your glutes in that lengthened position. And then for getting them in the shortened position, we want to take a look at something like a barbell Glute Bridge, or a glute Meade kickback, or even like a 45 degree hip extension. So you basically want to pick two exercises that do the lengthened to that do the shortened and then be able to use those to challenge the glutes again, most in totality. And by simply doing these exercises are not going to ipso facto get to the glutes of your dreams. It's being able to train hard over time with proper program design and progressions. And but it's just something to keep in mind. Why? Because I always like to give something actionable, instead of just talking in huge generalities. And then people are like, Well, how do I apply that to myself, of here's some action that you can take of making sure that you're training things in the lengthen in the shorten, being able to really get good at those exercises and get after that, because I also think I know I talked about volume, but people think more is better. And that's not always the case with anything in life. But people think I need to be training glutes three times a week to see growth. And I can tell you that you can see plenty of growth with training them two times a week, and maybe even better growth because you have the proper time to recover in between, which means that you're going to have more strength and output during the sessions that you're doing them to be able to see the growth that you want to be able to see overall. And I also find that when people are programming that they might program just because they want to be like intense or they want to feel sore, they want to do as many leg movements people to kind of go into the gym and be like, what's a leg movement or what's a glute movement, I'm going to destroy my glutes, where people then end up basically doing the same movement pattern over and over and over again. In fact, Alex was just telling me that like the rock walked through, like his leg workout for something. And it was that he started with a 45 degree leg press. Then he went into a vertical leg press. Then he went into a hack squat. Then he went into like a split squat. And then he went into something where it was Just like the squat movement the whole time, and it's like you didn't have any hinge, you didn't have any hip extension, we need to be able to work the glutes through all of those ranges. And that's what I see is that people just like, duplicate what they're trying to do. And it's like, instead of being like, Okay, I'm going to do back squat, then I'm going to do leg press, then I'm going to do a split squat, because these are all leg and glute exercises, like, let's be a little bit more intelligent with this, and think, How can I have a squat? How can I have a hinge? How can I get to hip extension, and being able to include all of that within your training, and again, you don't need to annihilate yourself with 20 different exercises, I can tell you can get the job done with four or five exercises, and you will be good if again, you're having the correct intensity, the correct execution, and being able to I guess that's with execution of like knowing how to actually engage the muscle, instead of just thinking, How do I get from point A to point B? It's like, how do I make sure the tension is on the muscle. And that's something where I'm not going to sit here and act like I'm an anatomy expert. Maybe Alex could say that about himself. But I will not say that about myself. But what I will say is understanding or learning a little bit about anatomy is going to help you largely because your understanding of again, not so much that point A to point B, but why you're trying to move things. And I'm not saying you need to memorize exactly where the origin and insertion point is, of all of the muscles, because those are a lot of long and confusing names. And it might confuse you are discouraged, you have like I don't understand this. And again, you don't need to, but knowing generally of like, okay, for my lat, it's actually going to attach on the back of my upper arm. So that means I'm going to need to have a neutral grip to hit my lap more. And I want to think about lowering this upper arm first, instead of just pulling my arm through like that's going to help you understand things better. If you just know, some generalities of this originates in this area. And this, like inserts in this area so that you can have that better picture, you can have that better visual of what you need to do when you're going through the movement.

Philip Pape 52:08

Yeah, I think that's important. I mean, that sets us for almost a form of mind muscle connection or whatever phrase you want to use to be aware of how your body moves, and not repetitively hitting the same movements that I just just to kind of wrap up those takeaways. And then I think we have time for maybe a couple more questions before we wrap up is number one, doing movements that work for you. And like you said, if you have if your lengths are such that you have a very horizontal back angle with like a low bar squat, just to get sitting back, and the massive fatigue that comes with that you're probably not hitting your glutes too much, right? Whereas like, I know, my backing on the back squat, I get sore glutes. So for me that that's something that hits them and I don't want bigger glutes. So I'll also not do that. Scott, I'm just getting. The other thing is this the fatigue and stimulus kind of balance or you know, similar fatigue ratio of knowing what biases, the things that you don't want to come along for the ride. So you mentioned machines can give you stability, sometimes that's a people criticize that aspect of machines. In your case, you're saying take advantage of that, because now you can isolate the movement that or the muscle that you care about. You also mentioned working across the lengths. And that led to the discussion of like proper diversity of these exercises, and again, knowing your insertions. So really good principles for any part of the body, not just glutes, which I love these discussion, because it is very principle based. If I messed anything up, let me know. I did want to ask a tangent to this because we had somebody in our community. We had a bunch of questions when I couldn't get to them all. But Denise asked about movements that are gentle on the back because she had back surgery. A lot of people haven't back surgery these days, you know, herniated discs and all that. And she said certain exercises like deadlifts, or the glute machine will seem to aggravate her back now. And she's asking if it's a core issue. Now I know you can't, you would want to ask her 10 questions to find out what's really going on. But is there anything that jumps to your mind of like, general advice in that area,

Sue Bush 53:56

in your core is going to play a role in that of just how you are executing that movement and being able to engage things because oftentimes you hear like deadlifts hurt my back, where it can just be of how you're setting up the movement or how you're even initiating the movement of maybe the setup is great, but then you're just pulling from your lower back because you don't know how to engage those other muscles. But I would say that things were again, you have more stability, I know you mentioned the glute machine causing some issues. But I would really be able to go back look at videos either of yourself, watching videos of someone performed the movement, and then being able to go through it. But again, the more stability that you can create while still training your core, I would highly recommend to really look at your core and like Phillip mentioned at the beginning your core isn't just your abs, it's going to be like your whole trunk and core box. So that is going to include a lot of things that a lot of time to blur just looking at the ABS overall. So really being able to think about what that looks like for your whole core because that is going to be huge and being able to all also create like the internal intra abdominal pressure to be able to do some of those movements like being able to perform a deadlift, you have to be able to create that internal pressure and your core to be able to truly perform that without hurting your back. So I would say it could be a core issue, but it also could be making sure that the movements are going to be the best for you, overall. Yeah,

Philip Pape 55:24

and I mean, I will say, for having trained all the years, I've trained still to this day, if I'm just a little sloppy, am I already else, I know I'm gonna have a sore back the next day, because you know, there's certain movements where you've got to be tight, you've got to brace. Sometimes you wear a belt, or whatever makes sense, depending on the movement, but I love that. So, okay, I like to ask this question of all guests. So before we wrap up here, and that is, is there any question you wish I had asked? And what is your answer?

Sue Bush 55:47

I wish you had asked what I am personally doing to grow my glutes and answer that I am doing the PD glute program to grow my glutes. So it's actually a 16 week program, which if you follow it, I can guarantee that you are going to see glute growth, which I know there's not a lot of guarantees in this world. But I will guarantee if you actually put in the effort, you will see the results from this. This is a program that we spent years working on trialing different sessions on clients trialing different phases on clients being able to work through what was going to be best. And then I ran through the 16 week program once we had it finish. And I saw throughout the 16 weeks, I saw three inches of blue growth. Now, of course, and I know we kind of mentioned that we'd circle back to it. So I'll loop it into this so that we can wrap it up, wrap it all up with a bow on it of gaining loot tissue and possibly some extra body fat. And just in general, I would say that first we need to keep in mind that muscle weighs something period. So even if you are saying I want to gain five pounds of glute tissue, no fat whatsoever, that means that the scale is going to go up at least five pounds. But with that to gain muscle, you cannot gain muscle completely without gaining any type of fat. But you can minimize that fat gain, which I think is where people get really backwards is they want to think I want to gain no fat. But instead you should really say how can I limit the amount of fat that I am going to gain. And so that's something that we really worked on. And we also have a podcast episode about how to properly be in a surplus. And what it was kind of thought of, I need to be in this massive bulk and I need to eat all this food. That's like, yes, you need to eat food, if you want to grow a big ass like that's facts, but is also going to be the aspect that you don't need to be like eating so much food, we can be in a very small surplus and still see the results for wanting if again, that intensity and recovery is linked in together, they all work together. So it's not going to be just if if I train really hard in the gym, and then I never sleep, then I'm all good to go. Or if I eat all this food and I do this, then it's all said it's going to be multiple things that work together in that. So you don't need to gain a ton of fat, but you are likely going to gain a little bit. But also you can hope that some of that goes to, to your behind as a whole. But within the program, I'm actually running it again for the second time I took about I don't know maybe it was six to eight weeks of I was just doing like 30 minute sessions by and doing full body sessions because that's all I could mentally and personally handle. And throughout that time, even with a lot going on. Personally, I was able to maintain the glute size that I had grown, I think that it only the most I quote unquote lost was half an inch. But as soon as I started eating enough again, and training again, that came back pretty quickly. And I was able to maintain the glute size that I put on, even without having the program in place. And then I'm rerunning the program as a whole. But the main reason I want to mention it is that while it is a 16 week program, we actually decided to give away the first four weeks for free to really be able to get people into it to see how great it was to see what those results looked like. And I just want everyone to have nice glutes. So I will have that link in the show notes for if you are interested in growing your glutes and you are like, Okay, I took the actionable things, but I'd rather have like a surefire plan, then I would highly recommend jumping in on that. And then purchasing the other 12 weeks afterwards. Because the 16 weeks as a whole is where you're really going to see the results. Because there is that progression, like I talked about, the way that you're going to see results over time is having the proper programming and the proper progression. And so we actually set it up perfectly that those first four weeks, no matter what training you're coming from, because oftentimes maybe someone's coming from a type of training and then they're going into another one and it's not geared the best and that shift the volume allocations are can be a lot of things at play. So those first four weeks is basically getting you all set on all the movement patterns and getting you all set on volume. So no matter what training phase you're coming from, that's going to kind of, quote unquote reset where you're at. And then you'll be able to go into the 12 weeks and just like exponentially see the results from there and get you to where you want to go. So that is what I'm doing right now I am extremely passionate about it just because of the time that went into it as well as I've reaped the benefits from it, and I just want to shout it from the mountains. And someone even called my results fake, which then made my ego way too big, because I was like, I have never had enough glutes or another muscle for someone to claim that it's fake. I'm like I will take you have no idea what that just did for my ego, you probably meant it as a major dis, but it really, really pumped me up there. But I just want other people to have that too.

Philip Pape 1:00:41

But so with all these goodies that you're giving my audience the glute program, plus, you mentioned the video about RPE and intensity. Yeah, we're gonna have a bunch of well deluded people that's not even worth walking around. All right, so where can listeners learn more about you, we'll definitely have those call outs in the show notes. But any anywhere else you want them to find you

Sue Bush 1:01:00

I would say the main place that you can find and interact with me would be Instagram and it's su Gaines su e g, a i n z, you're wondering where that name came from? It actually was from the fact that I went to a two Chainz concert in college, and then I became Sue chains. And so then when I started fitness, it just made sense to become Sue Gaines. So from Instagram, you can basically find anything else that you need from me. But I'll also have a podcast but you can go over and hear Philip on as well. That's right.

Philip Pape 1:01:31

That's right. All right. I'll put that all that in the show notes as usual at SU gains, the bonus video, the glute program, all that amazing stuff. This was awesome Sue, even better than I as great as I thought it would be having you on here to talk about this because it was very principle based and super helpful, no matter who you are, male, female, what you're going after in the world of training to get that physique you want. So thank you so much for coming on. So

Sue Bush 1:01:51

thank you for having me.

Philip Pape 1:01:54

Philip Pape 5/7/24 Philip Pape 5/7/24

Ep 170: How Fast Should You Lose Weight for Fat Loss?

What is the sweet spot between shedding fat and preserving muscle? How can diet breaks and refeeds help you achieve your fat loss goal? Is rapid fat loss the secret sauce to fine-tuning your physique?

In this episode, Philip (@witsandweights) uncovers the truth about the ideal rate of fat loss, exploring the full spectrum of approaches from slow and steady to rapid and aggressive and everything in between. He explains the pros and cons of each strategy, highlighting the benefits you gain from each approach. He discusses how to incorporate diet breaks and refeeds for optimal results, providing you with practical strategies for long-term, sustainable diet management that will leave you feeling motivated.

Whether you’re a beginner looking to lose your first 20 pounds or an experienced dieter aiming to get shredded, this episode serves as a valuable guide. Philip aims to give you a clearer understanding of how to navigate your weight loss journey, emphasizing the importance of making informed, strategic choices for your individual goals and lifestyle.

Today, you’ll learn all about:

2:25 Five-star reviews on Apple podcast
5:50 How fast CAN you lose weight without losing muscle mass
12:37 The benefits of the slow and steady approach
16:39 The conservative fat loss approach
22:17 Incorporating diet breaks for mental and metabolic benefits
24:32 The standard fat loss approach
34:47 Incorporating refeeds, not cheat days, for the mental break
37:39 The mini cut or aggressive approach
45:41 The micro cut or rapid fat loss approach
54:23 How to choose the fat loss approach that is right for you
1:00:00 Outro

Episode resources:

Learn about Weights Physique University (now open for enrollment at a new, more affordable bi-weekly price)

Episode summary:

When it comes to body transformation, finding the sweet spot between losing fat and preserving muscle is often akin to walking a tightrope. In this episode, Philip discusses this balancing act, offering insights and strategies that can help listeners navigate the complex path to achieving optimal body composition.

The conversation begins with the importance of understanding the ideal pace of weight loss for one's unique goals. Philip emphasizes that there isn't a one-size-fits-all solution; rather, individual circumstances dictate whether a slow and steady or a more aggressive approach is suitable. The key is to find a method that not only yields results but also meshes with one's lifestyle and can be sustained over time.

Listeners are then guided through the potential perils of rapid weight loss. While shedding pounds quickly can be tempting, it often comes at the expense of muscle mass and can lead to metabolic slowdown, making it harder to maintain weight loss in the long run. Philip underscores the necessity for a well-calibrated plan that prioritizes patience and adherence to a structured diet.

For individuals with a history of disordered eating, the hosts advocate a conservative approach to weight loss. They highlight the importance of establishing a healthy relationship with food before embarking on a calorie deficit. A slower pace is recommended, as it allows for a less restrictive caloric intake and a lower likelihood of triggering unhealthy eating patterns.

Moving on to strategies for managing long-term dieting, the hosts discuss the role of diet breaks and refeeds. These planned intermissions in a calorie deficit can provide psychological relief and help offset metabolic adaptation. By temporarily increasing calorie intake, one can maintain momentum in their weight loss journey without succumbing to burnout or excessive cravings.

The conversation shifts to the transformative power of physique development, particularly for individuals in their 30s and beyond. Philip shares his experience with Wits and Weights Physique University, a program designed to support listeners in achieving their best physique through personalized nutrition plans and workout programs. The discussion touches on the significance of setting realistic goals and being disciplined in meeting calorie and macro targets for successful fat loss.

Finally, the concept of the mini cut is examined—a short-term, intense weight loss strategy often utilized after a muscle-building phase. The hosts clarify that a mini cut is best suited for those who are already fairly lean and are looking to fine-tune their physique. They recommend a specific rate of weight loss and a time frame for undertaking this focused effort.

Listeners are left with a clear understanding of the various approaches to achieving optimal body composition. From the slow and steady to the rapid and aggressive, the episode provides a comprehensive guide for anyone looking to sculpt their physique intelligently, with sustainability and muscle preservation at the forefront of the strategy.

In summary, the episode serves as a testament to the notion that successful body transformation is not merely about losing weight—it's about making informed, strategic choices that lead to a healthier, stronger, and more confident self. It's about the journey as much as the destination, and with the right guidance, listeners are empowered to embark on this journey with confidence and clarity.

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Transcript

Philip Pape 00:00

How fast should you lose weight for the best results when it comes to body composition? Is there a sweet spot rate of loss that's optimal for losing fat while maintaining muscle? You'll find the answers in today's episode as we lay out the entire spectrum of safe and effective rates of weight loss for every physique goal with some surprises along the way, including times when you might actually be dieting for much longer than you think and times when an extremely rapid approach can be right for you all that and more in today's episode of Whitson wits.

Philip Pape 00:33

Welcome to the wit's end weights podcast. I'm your host, Philip pape, and this twice a week podcast is dedicated to helping you achieve physical self mastery by getting stronger. Optimizing your nutrition and upgrading your body composition will uncover science backed strategies for movement, metabolism, muscle and mindset with a skeptical eye on the fitness industry so you can look and feel your absolute best. Let's dive right in Whitson weights community Welcome to another solo episode of the weights and weights podcast. In our last episode 169 q&a with Jeff Hoehn menopause weight loss bulking without getting fat and cutting on low sleep. I was joined by Jeff Hoehn of the mind muscle connection podcast very special co hosted q&a where we answered questions on rest periods for muscle growth, managing your diet unlimited sleep, what to do if you're gaining too much weight in a bulk, how to transition your training from a bulk to a cut, menopause and weight loss resistance for women over 50. And how to prep ahead of time for inevitable holiday feasting. Today for episode 170. How fast should you lose weight for fat loss, we are uncovering the truth about the optimal rate of weight loss for sustainable fat loss will explore the full spectrum of approaches from slow and steady to rapid and aggressive and everything in between, you'll learn the pros and cons of each strategy, how to incorporate diet breaks and refeeds for optimal results, and the principles that apply to every successful fat loss plan because those never change whatever speed you go after it. Whether you're a beginner looking to lose your first 20 pounds of fat or you're an experienced diet or trying to get shredded. My goal is to give you a clearer understanding of how to choose the right rate of loss for your individual goals, and lifestyles. Now, before we dive in, I did want us to check out some of the recent five star reviews on Apple, where we've now got over 125 reviews and counting. So thank you to everyone who's taken the time to submit a review. That is honestly one of the best ways you can support the show because it lets others see what the experience is what you've been learning how people react to the show. And it creates what they call social proof. So if you're watching this rate, or listening to this right now, and you've never ever submitted a rating or review, please just take a moment, I'm okay if you just want to pause right now, since you're in the your podcast, app, Apple, Spotify, especially Apple, go to the five star rating and review, tap the button that says write a review, type in some nice loving words and submit it. Now if you don't intend to give me a five star review, that's cool. But I'd rather you reach out to me directly with your feedback, because I listened to what you guys tell me about the show, whether it's the guests that you might not like or the content, or maybe I have gone too far in one direction or another if things aren't quite supported by the evidence. And I heard it. And I'm listening to that feedback and continuing to adjust the show to improve quality over time. So what might be in your mind one star right now because you just found the show and for whatever reason didn't like an episode or two. And I've seen that happen with reviews, where you know, I wish they would just give it a chance and listen to a few more episodes. Or maybe it's just not for them. But you know, when you do a one star review, it really punches me in the gut, but it does give me feedback. So if you're planning to do that, I would just just DM me on Instagram, send me an email and say, hey, you know, I don't like the show. And here's why. And I'm going to talk to you about it and get your feedback. And guess what, I'm probably going to make a change if it makes sense for the audience. Now not every show is great for everyone. And that's the way the cookie crumbles as they say. So here are three quick reviews from our audience. First one is from LCD D 12. so useful. I stumbled across this podcast and I'm so happy with what I found. I've been looking for actually useful and concrete tips on my health journey and discovered that and so much more. I can't wait to keep listening as I continue my journey. The next review is from at Kim's do inspired tips for us over 40 Women are priceless. What a great discovery for my health. Thanks Philip for helping us weed through all the advice, especially as we age to find the best tips for losing weight and gaining muscle without sacrificing our health along the way. And that's what we're trying to do. We're trying to find a approach that works for the remaining years and decades of our wonderful vibrant lives. Right is Stay Healthy, Be Fit have that muscle but not sacrifice our health or our lives.

Philip Pape 05:00

Along the way, all right. And the last one is from for fam, I have a couple dogs, we also have some hamsters and chickens as well, chickens don't effort, but still they're part of our family. And this review says strategy, I really appreciate the strategic approach to health and nutrition with focusing on muscle mass. So incredibly helpful. I couldn't have summed it up better a strategic approach. That's what it is. We're about efficiency about doing it smart. You know, smart, Li, intelligently, time efficiently, all of those things and just cutting through the noise, right? Kind of like a recent episode when I talked about reverse dieting being a waste of time. I've gotten some great comments on that saying, You know what, I tried what you said, and you're right, it actually worked. Like I didn't have to prolong this with a reverse diet, I was able to recover right away. I didn't gain any fat, I might have gained a few pounds of water weight when I came back. But it worked. So that's what we're looking for. Alright, let's get into today's topic. I know you guys want to learn all about the various rates of weight loss, why the pros, the cons, the whole thing? How fast should you lose weight for fat loss? So we're going to start with that question. Right? How fast but another angle on that is? How fast can you lose weight and not lose muscle mass? Because that is what we're really talking about? Because of the answer is how fast should you lose weight? All right, there are a lot of factors that go into that, including Why the heck we want to lose weight in the first place. I was asked recently on a podcast. In fact, it was the physique development podcast with Sue Bush, which is I think the next episode is her on this show. But anyway, she asked me, Why do you think people struggle with dieting with weight loss? And I think my answer was, because a lot of people shouldn't even be dieting in the first place. Right? It shouldn't be, or they're doing it for the wrong reasons. And so, before we get into, like, how fast you lose weight, if you found this podcast, if you haven't followed our stuff for very long, and you're like, Yeah, I just want to lose weight, I want to lose weight on the scale. That is not what we're talking about. Yes, we are talking about measuring fat loss via a loss and body mass, right, via a form of quote unquote dieting, or a calorie deficit, not dieting, like the Keto or carnivore diet yet, but just the idea of being in a calorie deficit to release some of that energy. But we're doing it in a way that's both sustainable, right? Not necessarily sustainable for the period of fat loss, but in a sustainable way for life. So anytime you do it, it's sustainable, but also in a way that preserves muscle mass, okay, not just losing weight on the scale, but actually maintaining that muscle. And for some of you newer lifters, you might even build a little bit of muscle as you do this. And the wonderful thing here is there's a whole spectrum of approaches, and today we're talking about rates of loss. So I'm gonna go very logically, from slow and steady all the way to rapid and aggressive. And the best one for you today, in this phase of your lifestyle of your training of your year, is going to depend right on a variety of factors. So I'm gonna go over each of these and tell you what those are. All right. Before we get into the rates, though, and I know you're like, oh, what does he do and get into it? I do want to talk about why this whole idea is even important. Like, why do we care about rates of loss and all of that, it does come back to sustainability, the S word, it's the boring S word, that's, nonetheless, the key to everything here. The key to getting to your goals successfully, is doing it in a way that builds routines and habits and some inherent self discipline, you know, occasionally doing hard things a push your comfort zone, but not going all out with the all or nothing approach, and not doing things just to get it quickly done at all costs, right? That's what we mean by sustainability. So while I'm going to eventually get to a very rapid approach to fat loss, but at the very end, even with that approach, there's a context of sustainability around it, okay, of how we approach it. So that's what we want to do it put on those thinking hats and critical thinking hats, and do this the right way. Because if you lose weight too quickly, which is very tempting for a lot of you I know, I know it is, I've been there many times. All right, I've done the low carb diets to do it. I've done crazy diets like to get ready for my wedding, I lost a ton of weight. And I just looked scrawny and skinny fat. So it can be tempting, you know, especially if you have a lot of weight to lose. I mean, if you're, you know, 50 100 200 pounds overweight, and you want to lose that you might be desperate to do it, right. But rapid weight loss will come at a cost if not done the right way. Right? Because when you drastically start cutting calories, or you start doing all this extra training or cardio, your body starts to look for resources elsewhere, where does it find those resources, it finds it in your muscle tissue, you're not eating enough food, you're moving too much your body's trying to conserve and find energy wherever it can. And it's like, well, you're not giving me the foods, I'm gonna use some of that muscle tissue, and then your metabolism slows down further. And then it's harder to lose even more weight and then even once you do, it's hard to keep the weight off in the long run. And I use the word weight a lot today and weight loss. At the end of the day. I really care about fat loss but

Philip Pape 10:00

When you have anything more than a decent percentage of body fat, there's going to be an element of weight loss to lose the fat as well. They go hand in hand they correlate, right. But we want that weight to be fat, not muscle. The other thing is when you go too fast into a diet, you're going to experience a ramp up in, of course, metabolic adaptation, where your metabolism declines, and the symptoms and biofeedback that comes with that hunger cravings, even mood swings, right hang being angry. And if done too quickly, those things ramp up too quickly. That's what leads to binge eating, and weight regain. We've talked about it a lot. We've talked about body fat overshooting, check out the history of our podcasts, you'll see episodes on body fat overshooting on fat loss versus weight loss. I think I've talked about rates of weight loss a long time ago as well. Regardless, we don't want to do it too quickly. On the other hand, if you lose weight too slowly, that can be a problem too, because it can be frustrating that you don't see the change, right? It might happen over time over like months. But that's, you know, we as humans, we want these quick wins. I don't want a quick fix. But I do want quick wins. And that can be frustrating and demotivating, because you're seeing these very small changes on the scale. And in fact, because they're so small, from a fat loss perspective, they tend to be outweighed by the daily fluctuations from water weight. And that can be even more discouraging, because you're trying to go in a slightly downward direction. And you get these big jumps all the time. And you look from, say, Sunday to Sunday, and the weights the same, even though it kind of went generally down, but then it may be popped up on Sunday. Again, that can be very discouraging. And that's one of the things I actually deal with my clients, especially when they're newer in the process, where they're like, I see the trend going down. I've seen lower numbers on the scale. But then today, I was right back where it was a week ago. And my response is, let's be patient, you're doing all the right things. You're in the deficit, we know your expenditure, we've adjusted the calories and macros just keep going for now, right? If there's a true plateau, I'll let you know. And the way we didn't generally do it, you know, with my coaching and Whitson weights physique University, the approach we take is designed to avoid plateaus altogether, because we're being proactive, we're getting ahead of it. But anyway, weight loss of to slow can be frustrating. And so we want to find that balance in between for you, that allows you to lose fat at a steady pace, while preserving your muscle mass, while maintaining your energy as best as possible. And even Yes, while enjoying your food, that is a variable here. Because if your dieting plan takes you 12 months, and you feel like to do that, you're cutting out all the foods you enjoy, that's not sustainable, right, that's not sustainable. So here we go, we're gonna start with a very conservative approach the slow and steady, okay, slow and steady. And this involves losing weight at a rate of around a quarter to a half percent of your body weight per week. So anything less than a quarter percent of your body per week is probably too slow to really be meaningful, it's almost close to maintenance, and it's going to take way too long, and it's gonna be frustrating. So at least a quarter and then up to a half percent of your body weight per week. So if you weigh 200 pounds, that's a half to one pound per week. Now, that may not sound like much if you come from the like crash dieting world, or you've done the yo yo diet. So you like did keto and you lost 40 pounds in a month. That doesn't sound like much. But it is exactly what the evidence shows is very reasonable to avoid losing muscle. And at that slower rate, you can have more calories to work with, which then comes into the sustainability piece and the adherence piece of this, this approach is great for several types of people. If you're brand new to this whole macros and dieting thing, it might be great for you just because we don't want to have a massive change. And all of a sudden, you have to figure out all the hacks and all the techniques for how do I cut, you know, 1000 calories out of my diet overnight. And that's a struggle. And that's a big challenge for some people. So if you're new to dieting, my brand new clients, in fact, if you come through with some weights, physique University, you're like, I don't want aggressive fat loss or any other form of fat loss, you're gonna get a rate that's closer to the half percent, rather than higher than that. And it might be less, it might be like point two 5% If you're going for something like a body recomp. Okay, so by taking things slowly, there are a few benefits here. One is that you give your body time and your mind time to adapt to the changes in your diet and your training. So each day, you're just making these small changes. They're simple. You're swapping your lunch, decide on your lunch, maybe you're swapping it from rice, and now it's going and becoming brussel sprouts, right? You're adding in a little protein here, and maybe dropping a snack here, right? It's like simple changes you can make in the first few weeks. You get used to it, you see what it feels like you get through the hunger pangs of the first week because the first few weeks of a diet at any rate. It messes with your mind a little bit from a hunger perspective. It's more psychological than physiological like it's a lot having to do with the habituation of. Okay, I've been eating at 3pm snack every day. Now I'm cutting that out because I'm reducing my calories. And all of this stuff is great for setting you up for sticking with it for a while, obviously prevents muscle loss and metabolic adaptation. Here's the thing. muscle loss will occur in a diet if you go too fast, or you're not training hard enough. So we're not really addressing the training piece here. But the assumption is your training with the proper intensity and execution, very similar to you were when you were at maintenance or in a building face, it doesn't really change much. And in fact, the cohosted episode with Jeff Hoehn, we talked about that, like how do you transition from a bulk to a cut in terms of your training, right. And the key messages keep training is if you're building muscle, you may have to change some of the volume and the programming for recovery. Right recovery is like a very important variable during fat loss, but the intensity of execution doesn't change. So assuming you've got that the slower rate of loss at about a quarter to half percent, is going to be really nice for not even getting close to that point of losing muscle strength. And you might even see your lifts continue to go up for a while. And then while you're doing this, you can start to develop those new sustainable habits that you can stick to in the long run. Even when you're not in fat loss, a lot of the habits are going to be roughly the same, like having high satiety foods, having high fiber foods, having mostly Whole Foods, but yes, still fitting in indulgences that you enjoy, right? Figuring out your meal timing, figuring out your workout, and Perry workout nutrition, that is a much better position to be in. Rather than burning out after a few weeks, because you went way too hard, you got some results, but then you couldn't take it anymore. So I talked about people new to diet and why that's important. Another population where this is very helpful, is when you have a lot of weight to lose, if you have 50 100 pounds or more to lose, it might be a good idea to go conservative for a couple of reasons. One is, it's going to take you a while to get to your goal. And I know on one hand, you're thinking well, then I want to go very aggressively. So I get it over with quickly. But the problem is going aggressively, is you have to go aggressively for a lot longer than someone else would have to go aggressively. And that can quickly burn you out. Whereas if you go a little bit more conservatively, you could probably last a lot longer, like more than the math, you know, like if you could go half as long, rapid or twice as long conservative, you'll probably find that twice as long conservative is actually much more doable. Because on a daily basis, you're eating a decent amount of food, and you can kind of get used to that. Whereas mentally the rapid approach is like, Oh, wow, this is a slog, it's gonna seem like a lot longer time, just because it's so aggressive. Alright, so if you have a lot of weight to lose, going conservatively can help. The other reason that can help in that population is you have excess reserves to pull from with your excess body fat storage, where your body treats that as extra calories. And so if you go into like a point 252 point 5% your body weight per week, conservative deficit, your body may experience that as continuing to be at maintenance or even in a slight surplus. And that's going to be amazing for your training for your body composition development, it'll probably accelerate the fat loss, you know, because you're building muscle and losing fat. And so what will probably happen is even though your weight on the scale is going down, at a certain rate, your actual dropping body fat is going to outpace that you're going to drop more body fat than the weight on the scale tells you because you've gained muscle in the process. So that's a great place to be. And then the only other population I wanted to quickly mention here for the conservative approach is someone who has a history of disordered eating. All right now, disclaimer, I do not dispense medical advice. I don't deal with you know, actual medical conditions really to psychological conditions for disordered eating. If you're in the throes of that right now, if that's part of your life now, definitely go address that, you know, work with a mental professional for that, to address it before you get into using tracking and macros and all these things. But if you have a history of it, and you've moved, you've processed through that, and you have a healthy relationship with food now, which is something you want to develop before you even think of going into a diet anyway. All right, and my next solo episode next week is gonna be all about 15 times 15 situations where you do not want to be dieting, and I'm gonna address some of those things. But let's say you've move past and you no longer have an issue with disordered eating, you still may want to go at a more conservative rate just to be kind to yourself, give yourself that little bit of room to test the waters. Now the downside of a conservative approach to weight loss is it takes longer, that's it takes longer to see results. And that can be frustrating if you're eager to get more lean. If you're somebody like me who I know I can go more aggressively, I can go more aggressively on more calories than someone else. And so it would just be holding me back. Right. So depending on who you are, typically if you have a higher metabolic rate, you're more advanced training, ie, you're probably going to end up going with more and more aggressive approaches here. Either way, so whether you're excess weight to lose, you're newer at this and you're taking a conserve approach, there is an element of patience and consistency in all these approaches, but especially this one from a time perspective, and that can be tough if you've got a busy lifestyle, if you have a lot of social commitments you'd like to go out to eat. However, doing it at a conservative rate actually helps in those situations as well, because it's not, as I'll use the word restrictive, just from a pure calorie perspective, okay. And in any of these approaches, by the way, you can take breaks, you can use refeeds. And when you're going at a conservative approach, the refeed, or the break isn't that much of a jump from where you are in terms of your calories. And you can see that as a pro or con, you know, it's a pro, because you're not going to slow your progress that much by doing it, it can be a con, because it doesn't feel like you're really eating that much more food. But that's also a pro, because it implies that the amount of food you've been eating isn't that low anyway, Alright, anyway, if you're willing to play that long game, and you like the fact that it gives you more calories to work with and you have a decent amount of weight to lose this approach, this conservative approach can be a very safe and effective way to lose fat, and then keep it off. Because you don't get to that point of like ravenous hunger, you don't get to the point of feeling like you're depriving yourself and you need to binge back when the diet is done, it's done you up your calories a bit to recover, and you move on. So this can be great. Oh, one more thing comes to mind. Just keep in mind right now, one of my clients, he has a much lower metabolic rate, the typical man of his size, let's just say and so for him, any diet is going to be, by definition, moderately conservative, lest he be at a ridiculously low number of calories. So if you don't have a very high metabolic rate, and this applies to a lot of females and smaller individuals, then you may I'm not gonna be stuck, but it kind of limits your options. Calorie wise, you may have to go at a conservative rate just for that reason. Now, can you improve that over time, I believe so I believe with a few cycles over a few years of really solid building of muscle, and increasing your metabolic rate that way, as well as you know, moving a bit more like in terms of walking low grade cardio, and that can help. And then you could push it a little bit more aggressively. But just be aware that you may have constraints as an individual and just have to acknowledge those like, that's just reality. Okay, now, what are we going to do about it? Now, I mentioned briefly, diet breaks one strategy that makes this approach more bearable, because this is a long time based approach. And that's what can wear on you psychologically is not the calorie so much is the duration, we can take a diet break, you can take a one week, a two week break every, say 812 weeks, kind of like taking a D load and you're training, and then just eat it maintenance calories, all you have to do is up your carbs for that time and eat at maintenance. And here's a little trick, if you're using macro factor, right macro factor, best food logging app on the market, use my code, which N weights to get an extra free week on your trial. If you're using macro factor and you have it set to lose weight to go to maintenance for a break, what you can do is you can edit the goal to move the rate of loss down to almost zero, so you're effectively leaving the goal in place, but telling it that you want to lose at almost a zero rate of loss. And that gets the targets very close to your maintenance calories. And then you could just slightly overshoot it to slightly overshoot it to truly hit your maintenance, maintenance being your current metabolism, your current expenditure. Okay, so a diet break is usually like one to two weeks, every eight to 12 weeks eating and maintenance. And this doesn't fix anything, this doesn't reverse metabolic damage or anything like that. Okay. But it does, it does temporarily halt or reverse the metabolic adaptation that you had, it gives you more energy, right, it probably will feel great in the gym for a bit because now you have all these extra carbs coming in. And most importantly, and this is honestly the most important thing, it gives you the mental break from dieting, you're still going to keep your protein high, you're still going to train consistently, you can still do all the things. So consider a diet break if needed, especially when is a long period like this, because you may be planning for six to 12 months of dieting in this case. And this is one of the very few cases where I would say you could almost diet indefinitely, if it's conservative in the calories make sense, and just punctuate it with or interrupted with diet breaks, right. And I've had some very large clients who had a lot of weight to lose, we did it this way. But the amount of calories was, you know, it was still eating 2000 calories or more, maybe 2500 calories and it was like no big deal to do that for a while. So that's the conservative approach. I think I covered everything there that moves us next into the alcohol the standard approach. So this is the 12 to 16 week cut. This is the standard fat loss phase that I use with a lot of clients and what's awaits physique University. It's how I designed your nutrition plan. Again, for most people, depending on your specific situation because it is personalized to you. When you join I give you a plan and it tells you okay over the next six months this is what we're going to do to get to the result you're looking for. And if it's fat loss, it's usually going to have around a 12 to 16 week long cut. And so when you hear the word cut, doing a cut, this is like a standard cut. And if the conservative rate was point, two, five, I'm gonna say that the standard cut is around point five, two, all the way up to 1%. But most people have around point seven 5%. But we're gonna give it that full range, because I think there's some overlap between these phases. And again, if you burn more calories, you can go more aggressively and not feel it as much as somebody who burns less calories, or fewer calories, because you get to eat more plain and simple. And I know it's not fair, life's not fair. We're all different different rates of loss or different metabolisms. So, point five to 1% of your body weight per week, for 12 to 16 weeks. So if you weighed 200 pounds, that's about one to two pounds a week. And just to put that in perspective of the diet, I didn't do this with the last one. But I'll fix that here. One to two pounds, every one pound per week you're trying to lose is about a 500 calorie deficit a day. So in the last example, we talked about a half to one pound, so that's 250 to 500 calories a day. Now we're talking one to two pounds, again, for 200 pound person, that's 500 to 1000 calories per day deficit, right. And you might be like 1000 calorie deficit, I only burn 2500 That means I have to eat 1500 Yet, if you feel like that's sustainable. But if your metabolism is not that high, you may not be going at the full, you know, two pounds a week, even if you weigh 200, it might be a little bit less, you know, I weigh about 180. And when I go to a fat loss phase, it's usually around the full 1% One point A maybe even two pounds a week, because my metabolism is usually around 3000. So I can cut it down to 2000. And for me, that's fine, like eating 2000 calories a day, I can do that for 812 weeks, and then lose the weight I want to lose. Right now actually, I'm going to about half that rate. So I'm actually in this range, I'm going at about half a percent, because I went through some shoulder reactivation. And I was working on some bursitis and recovery. And so I decided to go back to maintenance for a while I did that for like three or four weeks, I felt great. I was able to recover mostly, let's just say I'm 95% there. And I said well, I want to go back into my fat loss phase. Because I do have a goal to get pretty lean this year, see what it's like, see how lean I can get. And for me that's getting back down to like at least 170 If not less on the scale. I don't want to drag it out forever. But I also don't want to go so aggressively, like I was doing because of my shoulder because I'm still kind of recovering. So I'm making it where it's sustainable for me from a training and recovery perspective, not just a food perspective. I mean, the food's nice, because now the amount I'm eating to be in a 500 calorie deficit a day almost doesn't feel like a diet. But I do feel it. I do feel it in my biofeedback, my training day today. In fact, I felt really fatigued in the gym, I don't usually feel that tired in the gym, and I did today. And I know it's because of my diet, it could have been a little bit of sleep as well. But I'm pretty confident based on my experience that it's the diet. So you've got to think about all these things. So going back to what this is the 12 to 16 week cut. I think this is a good middle ground for most people who have I'll say, a moderate amount of fat to lose not a lot of fat to lose a moderate amount. However, if you have a lot of weight to lose, you can go very aggressive. And I think this works well. If you have a high metabolism, I have a client whose metabolism is almost 4000 calories. And he can cut all the way down to like 2500 calories. And that results in a 1% if not slightly more than that rate of loss. And but he's built, he's got a lot of muscle. He loves heavy weights. I mean, he's got all the things working for him, he walks a lot sleeps a lot. He's on the younger side, right? All the things going for him, that may not be you. It's not even me, right. So I would say, a moderate amount of fat to lose and you're willing to be consistent with your diet and training. Again, it does require consistency, and a 12 to 16 week period. It ideally you don't even need any breaks. And by ideally, I mean you've set it up that way, not that you're gonna force yourself not to take a break. But you've set it up that way both with the right rate of loss, and also doing it at a time of year. That's kind of boring. That's not going to be interrupted with vacations and dining out and holidays. That's sustainable as well that because you're thinking ahead and you're planning if you need it, you're not just crashed it.

Philip Pape 29:31

Hey, this is Philip and I hope you're enjoying this episode of Whitson weights. I started with some weights to help ambitious individuals in their 30s 40s and beyond, who want to build muscle lose fat and finally look like they lift. I noticed that when people transform their physique, they not only look and feel better, but they also experienced incredible changes in their health, confidence and overall quality of life. If you're listening to this podcast, I assume you want the same thing to Build your ultimate physique and unlock your full potential. Whether you're just starting out or looking to take your progress to the next level. That's why I created wits and weights physique University, a semi private group coaching experience designed to help you achieve your best physique ever, with a personalized done for you nutrition plan, custom designed courses, new workout programs each month, live coaching calls and a supportive community, you'll have access to everything you need to succeed. If you're ready to shatter your plateaus and transform your body and life, head over to Whitson weights.com/physique, or click the link in the show notes to enroll today. Again, that's Whitson weights.com/physique, I can't wait to welcome you to the community and help you become the strongest leanest and healthiest version of yourself. Now back to the show.

Philip Pape 30:52

So I like the standard approach for most people, because it's not so slow, that you're gonna get bored or discouraged that you're not progressing. Because you will see drops in fat over time, like the trend weight is going to go down meaningfully. But it's also still not so fast that you're gonna risk losing muscle. In fact, we know that for the general population 1% of your body weight per week is the limit for losing muscle. Notice that I said general population. Again, I work with very trained people who are longtime lifters, they can go faster than that, I can go faster than that and not lose muscle, I can go about 1.2, I've tested it. And I have a couple clients can go 1.3 1.4%. Now they don't do this for a full 16 weeks, they might do that for six or eight weeks, and then they're done. And that'll be the mini cut we talked about in a bit. But they might do it for six or eight weeks and then taper down to the 1% it's going to depend on you. But just assume that it's generally a one to 1% of your body weight per week is the limit. Okay? Especially if you've never done this before. And so even if you're going at point 5.751, whatever, you're going to lose a decent amount of fat in a reasonable timeframe. Right and ballpark, it comes out to about 10 to 20 pounds for most people. So when you start, you're like I just got to lose that last 10 pounds to lose that last 20 pounds, this could be the perfect approach for you. Now, the downside of this is that it is I'll say, it requires in a sense more discipline, I hate to use that word sometimes. But it's discipline and adherence from in terms of the numbers, right. So if you're tracking your calories and macros, this is more aggressive than the first approach. So you can't be constantly going over your calories by 234 100 calories, because it'll just wipe out that difference. It'll wipe out the difference. Now, if you're tracking, if you're using macro factor, you know what the target is? And it's not going to shame you for going over, it's just on a weekly basis. Did you hit the let's say 7500 calorie deficit, if you're trying to get a full two pounds, they said right 7000 calories, you know, did you hit the deficit for the week, if you didn't, you're just gonna go more slowly, that's okay, that's fine. Just be aware of it and know that being close to those numbers that you set for yourself to go at that rate of loss is going to get you the result, as intended, right, you need to be on top of your macros your training to recovery, if you want to get those results. And if not, then one of two things, either there's some adjustments that have to be made to get back into that window, or it's not the right rate of loss for you. And it's too fast right now at this point in your life, and you can back it off of it. And I would rather you back off the rate and extend the duration. Now proactively, then constantly miss your macros and be over and feel frustrated that you can't quote unquote, hit that number. And now you feel like you're constantly failing and falling behind this, let's be honest, artificial plan we set for herself, because it's just a number. It's just a rate of loss. I really want to get this message that whatever you said at the beginning, make it reasonable. Make it doable, give yourself some fluff, some conservative padding in there, right? If you think you can get it done in eight weeks, assume 16, right? Like give yourself some pattern, and then make that work. And then if you want to go more aggressive as you go along, that might be a better approach psychologically, because then you're gonna feel like, oh, actually, I'm getting ahead of this thing. That's great, as opposed to falling behind. Right. So if, again, the downside is it does require a little more adherence, more consistency, right. And that can be challenging. If again, you're busy, you have a lot of stress, you have a very active social circle that revolves around food and drink, but you can always take breaks. And we talked about the one to two week diet break, we're going to talk about another way to take a diet break in a second. If you don't need the break, if you can just stay the course and get through it in 1216 weeks, you'll get there. It's a powerful tool for transforming your physique. That's what we're trying to do here. Alright, so the strategy that can make this more effective from a psychological perspective and a planning perspective is incorporating repeats. So in the conservative approach, we had diet breaks one to two weeks even longer. Now we're talking about refeeds. This is one to two days. And you could do that every week, you could do that every two weeks, as long as your weekly calories are where you want them. So you could say, Look, I'm gonna go pretty aggressive here, I'm gonna go toward the 1%. But I'm gonna carve out my Friday and Saturday, as refeed days where I eat at maintenance. And so in reality for the week, maybe I'm hitting point 8%, right, it's like slightly slower. But the benefit you get the trade off you get is this mental relief of getting to eat more food, these are not, I repeat, not cheat days, they're not cheat days, we don't do cheat days, cheat days implies that you're breaking some rule and you're cheating. And you're going off of some plant, no, these are planned in, these are controlled refeeds, where you're increasing your carbs, and eating a maintenance calories, you're not eating a bunch of junk food, or just whatever you want. However, you do have more room now to incorporate maybe some other foods you've been limiting, like pizza or something like that, which by the way, even in the regular day to day deficit, you should be incorporating some things that you enjoy on a regular basis and planning the min. So the refeed you know, there are some myths around refeeds. One of the myths is that it boosts your leptin levels, and which it might for a day or two might actually boosted but it's temporary. And then that reduces hunger and cravings and all of that, that piece of it, I would chalk up to just the fact you're eating more food, like you're going to eat more, so you're gonna be a little bit less hungry, right, like, let's just admit what it is. The more important thing is the mental break the mental break from the grind of dieting. Now, it may not seem like a grind to you, if you pick the rate of loss that was not too aggressive, but aggressive enough to give you progress, you can just stick with that just keep going. Right, just keep going. Or you can shift the calories around one week, and not do like a full refeed. But just kind of shift morale. So on your refeed days, just to be specific, what we mean is, if you are in a, let's say 700 calorie deficit, on your refeed day, you're in a zero calorie deficit, you're eating 700 more calories, mostly from carbs. And carbs doesn't mean pizza and doughnuts. Although you're welcome to include pizza and or donuts, to get to those carbs, it's a lot of fat to but that's fine, it is what it is. Carbs just means you know, any source of carbs, usually things like starches and grains and fruits and stuff like that, you're just scaling them up, getting that little boost of energy. Maybe if you time it right with your training session, you can get a little extra performance in your training session. And you can even time it with the social side of your calendar. And that's why I like refeeds is if you have a regular night out with the girls, right, or if you have a regular family dinner, that is a great time to have your refeed. Okay, so enough on the standard approach, I talk about it a lot. And a lot of the other episodes when we get into fat loss, it's typically that now we're getting into the mini cut. So this is the third of four rates of loss. This is the I'll call it aggressive approach. Not that not the extremely aggressive approach. But this is the I'll call it moderately to moderately aggressive to aggressive, any mini cut. Short and sweet, is I'll define it in a second. But who is it for? If you're already on the lean side, that has a wide range that could be like for a man that could be anywhere from 10 to even 20%, it's kind of lean for you or you're like, you don't need to lose a lot much weight, probably less than 20 pounds, probably quite a bit less than 20 pounds. In some cases, maybe it's 15, maybe it's 10. If it's just five, or you want to get shredded, right, or you're breaking up a long building phase with a cut in between. These are all situations where mini cut might work. Now, Jeff Hoehn, I talked about in the q&a episode coming out, or that already came out that we kind of have slightly different definitions of mini cut. And that's why it's important to define terms. His use of the term was breaking up a building phase, my use of the term is just a short cut, typically after a building phase before you start your next one. Technically, those could be the same thing though, right? If you think about it, if Jeff saying look, you build for five months, and then you break up your building phase with this, say eight week mini cut, and then you keep building for another four months, is that a nine month building phase with a two month mini cut? Or is it a five month building phase and a four month building phase with a cut in between it's semantics in my opinion. So what I don't like to do though, is have you constantly stopped building to cut that is not a good approach. We don't do that. We want to build muscle for at least five or six months. So once you've built for at least five or six months, you can call it a interruption in your building phase or you can just call it a cut after your building phase. We're going to talk about in the final phase here the Super Rapid Fat Loss about actually interrupting a building phase so hold on that but in the mini cut that we're talking about right now, this involves losing weight at a rate of I'm gonna say usually around 1% or maybe even a tiny bit more. If you're a more advanced trainee all the things I said before right you have a higher metabolism. You you train really hard, you're not going to risk losing muscle like some people fear monger about, you're just not I just seen it time and time again, I've heard, you know, experts who I really trust, whether it's like Brian Borstein or Steve Hall or somebody talk about how you know, if you're doing everything right, the 1% limit, it's a population level number, and you may actually be an outlier where you can go 1.2 1.3% of your body weight per week and do it at a decent amount of calories. For the average person, a mini cut is probably just at the 1% and done for a short period. That's really what we're talking about it because you don't have a lot of weight to lose, you don't need a long duration. And you can go out 1% for like six to 10 weeks. So if you weighed 200 pounds, that's let's say two pounds a week, 10 weeks, that's 20 pounds, right? But even six weeks, that's still 12 pounds. And again, I see this a lot with people who are already lifting who come to me for one on one coaching or even in weeks and weeks physique University, and they're like, I just want to lean out, like I've been trying carnivore, I've been trying all the diets, they don't quite work, I just want to lean out what do we do, and we work with them for, you know, maybe eight to 10 weeks, and we get exactly where they need to be. They're like, Alright, I'm done. Now, I'm lean enough, I don't want to keep losing, because I'm going to lose some of the strength on my lifts and such, because that's important to them. I'm going to turn it out now and go back to maintenance. All right. So mini cut about 1%, maybe a little more of your body weight per week, for about six to 10 weeks. It is designed to be short and sweet. That's the goal. All right, we're getting as lean as possible, in as short a time as possible, try and have our cake and eat it too. Because you don't have a lot of weight to lose, you're not new at this, you've done it before, you can jump right in, you track it with a macro factor, we have certainty and confidence of what it takes to keep you in that deficit. You know, to eat your vegetables, you know, to stay hydrated, you know, to eat a lot of fiber, right, you eat a lot of protein, a lot of lean meats, lower fat, dairy, all the things, you get your sleep, prioritize your recovery. And it's this targeted strike to just strip off that last bit of stubborn body fat. And for many of us, myself included, we like to be in the state where 10 months out of the year we're building and at most two months, we're dieting and those two months are like your mini cut, and you fit it in the best time of year when it kind of doesn't interrupt anything else in your life. Usually, that's something like the spring, you don't have any holidays going on, you're coming out of winter, maybe you're still bundled up, and you're getting ready to be lean for the summer. Very common approach. All right now, because of the rate of loss being on the upper end, again, it's suited for people who don't aren't looking for lots and lots of LDS lots of pounds on the scale to lose. So again, 10 to 15, maybe 20% body fat for men, for women 20 to 25, maybe 30% for women, I get your definition of Lean may be higher than someone else's. And that's okay. That's okay. Not all of us want to walk around being like super shredded, or have six packs. The other thing is, again, you should already have experience with dieting and training or be working with a coach or of course, I'm going to plug it all day. It's in weights physique university, because then we're gonna give you a very targeted plan and adjustments to do that. Now, the downside of this mini cut is number one, it's very intense, okay, it's intense if you've never done it before, and your calories aren't super high. You know, like I mentioned before the gentleman with the 4000 Calorie metabolism. Most people like most men are sitting around 20 803,000, most women are down around the 24 to 2600, something like that, you've got to think of the numbers, if you're gonna go at the full 1%, it could put you down around 2000 or less calories are far below 2000 calories in some cases. And that can tax you physically. And mentally. You have a little more strictness with the approach, right? Not restriction of foods per se. But just the constraints are there and you've got to make tighter trade offs. And really prioritize the high fiber and high satiety foods, right, we can't be, you know, the indulgences are going to be somewhat limited. Just the reality, it's a temporary state. That's why we want to do it aggressively. Because it's temporary, it's very short lived, you might get more hunger, more fatigue, more mood swings on this kind of cut, you're getting closer to that point where you could lose muscle mass, you've got to really watch out with your training, get enough protein, get enough stimulus protein is important here, because the calories are going to drop and the protein as a percentage of calories are going to be pretty high. And I've seen some people slack off a bit, they get to this point. And because they're just scaling down their food, the protein gets scared along with it. And now you're not in that great territory for high amount of protein. Now you have to be at the full one gram per pound, maybe not. Maybe not we the more we learn about protein research, the more we see you can get by on less and still hold on to your your gains, especially if you have proper intensity execution and progressive overload in your training. So if you can handle all that, if that's like, Yeah, that's cool, I can do it. The mini cut approach is a great way to get lean and mean in a hurry. So that's why I do recommend it for somebody who's already been through this at least once before. Now, I talked about refeeds can you incorporate mini cuts in a refeed and I'm in Ain't got Yeah, absolutely. Again, it's going to slow it down. But you can almost make the argument that if any type of phase needs refeeds, it will be a mini cut, the more aggressive you get, the farther you are from your maintenance, the more drained you're going to be to where a refeed, it seems like this beautiful gift you've been given, you know, and you almost look forward to it. Now, again, not like a cheat day, we don't want to be psychologically obsessed with it, we just want to have it planned in where it makes sense for our schedule. And for our mental state. So all of these things, doing it this way, let's is intended to prioritize your adherence to the diet so that you get through it and over with as quickly as you can. Okay, so let's see, that's it for the mini cut, I think. And now I'm going to move to the Rapid Fat Loss approach, which you might call the last resort, because I don't deliberately prescribe this to anyone, even my one on one clients, it's really up to them to tell me I want to do this, and almost sell me on it, because I know all the reasons why you could do it and might do it. And it could be helpful. But there are many, many, many reasons not to do this. And I want to be very clear on that. I have a rapid fat loss guide, you can go to Whitson weights.com/free. and download it, it's got the entire detailed protocol on how to do this. It's a very special approach. So you want to do it the right way. It is extreme. It is also in some circles controversial. But on Whitson weights, it's not controversial, because we do it the right way. And you've got to do it the right way. And this involves losing weight at a rate of around 1.2 to 1.5% of your body weight per week, for a very short period. Okay, usually two to four weeks max. So this isn't a mini cut, I sometimes call this a micro cut. Alright, so let's say you weigh 200 pounds, you're gonna go, you know, 2.53 pounds a week, for like four weeks. So if you just do the math that might be at most, at most 10 pounds. For most people, it's like, five to seven. All right, I did this myself, as part of the challenge. It was the shred Tober challenge back in 2003. I did a podcast on it. I don't remember the name off top of my head. But Dr. Bill Campbell came on. And we talked about it, it was inspired by his work Dr. Bill Campbell is is really into the Rapid Fat Loss research, he's doing a new study about it. And it's totally doable. And the whole point of a rapid fat loss phase is I want to lose that fat as fast as I can, and still not lose muscle and get it over with. So I want to be very clear, this is not for people who have a lot of weight to lose, this is not for 1520 pounds, because I've seen people reach out to me and say I followed your fat loss protocol. But I still want to lose more can I keep going. And I'm like absolutely not, don't keep going, what I recommend is either taper it down to a more conservative rate and try to keep going like hope for the best that you don't lose muscle at that point. Or go back to maintenance for a while, like for a month or six weeks or even eight weeks and then go into a normal fat loss phase like don't do another rapid fat loss phase right away, I feel like you're going to really eat into your performance and your sustainability in your muscle. If you try to do this as a default option. Alright, so it's not for everyone, I would say it's either something you want to do as an experiment, or you're pretty lean, you just want to get to the last bit of shredded really quick. Or it's a last resort. Let's say you've tried some of the other approaches. And because of, I don't know, let's say your hormones, your body's response rate, your metabolic adaptation, and maybe you don't have a lot of calories to work with. I've had some clients that are kind of like in that box, right? They feel like they're in a box because all the variables are like conspiring against them, and will do a rapid fat loss phase, almost like as a breakthrough. Okay, it's like, I don't want to use the word shock, because that sounds, that sounds silly, but it's effectively, very quickly getting ahead of that metabolic adaptation, even though it's going to catch up quickly, trust me, it's gonna catch up, you can't do anything about metabolic adaptation. But you're gonna get ahead of it quickly. And then because of the duration is short, you can meaningfully push that weight on the scale that fat loss as long as you're training hard during that process, and using the refeeds. So very important, this rapid fat loss phase incorporates refeeds by default, so unlike the other types of fat loss, where you can choose to include them if you need them. The rapid fat loss phase includes them as a matter of course. So like my two week protocol, it has four days of dieting, one day, a refeed, four days of dieting one day refeed and then four days dieting, right to recover and prevent that muscle loss. We also don't want to use this if again, you're not experienced dieting, and this is the first thing you've ever done. Don't do that. Don't do that. This is just going to feed into the whole rapid. What do you call, like quick fix, you know, Crash dieting kind of mentality. It's not the intent. Okay. And it's not meant to sustain for more than a few weeks. I just want to keep reiterating that. Okay, I did allude to where you You might use it like, what are the situations where Rapid Fat Loss is appropriate. So, one could be if you're trying to make weight, okay, if you're a competitive and I don't know bodybuilding physique athletes fighting, even powerlifting, I don't know, you're gonna have to try it out. And I had a powerlifter reach out about this, who was going to do this. So I need to see how that went. Because what you don't want to do is feel like completely drained of energy where you just can't hit your performance goals for the show. But we know people do more extreme things than that, you know, boxers with the water weight, and such, and, or for military tests, right? Sometimes people do this, we don't want to get into any sort of binge restrict cycle though here. And we don't want to rely on this and like, wait and depend on it. But potentially, that's a situation where it can be used and still come out of it the other side, not the worst for where another situation that comes up. And again, I hesitate to mention these when I'm going to because you're probably thinking about it, if you have a once in a lifetime event, maybe it's a wedding, maybe it's your wedding coming up, and the time is against you right now. And you want to try this and again, do it the right way, have the refeeds in there, keep training hard to just quickly cut off that five or six pounds, and you think that's worth it to you, that's your choice, do it right, that's up to you. That's a possibility. Again, it shouldn't be a regular thing, like every year, you have some event that requires this is a once in a lifetime event. The other place I actually like it potentially is breaking up a building face. So what you could do is you could say I'm going to build for a year, and I'm going to do a micro cut after month eight, right. So eight months in, you know, you might have gained, let's say 15 pounds, or 20 pounds. And now you're gonna do a micro cut for two weeks and cut five pounds, it's kind of like giving you a little reset right in the middle of your building phase, and you've got four more months of your building phase. And then the net gain of the phase isn't as large, even though the game is mostly muscle, right. So the rapid fat loss phase, cut some of the fat off in the middle of building phase so that you end up leaner by the end of it having built the same amount of muscle, which is great, right if you can do that. So that's a way to do it, where I think again, when Jeff Hoehn and I were talking about and he was saying a mini cut in the middle of the building phase kind of what he was thinking. But I'm talking about even more aggressive like a micro cut, which some people call mini cuts. So just semantics. Alright, so if you do decide to do the Rapid Fat Loss route, there's a few things you can do to minimize some of the risks and some of the side effects. The first and biggest one is getting enough protein I'm talking if you can around 1.2, maybe 1.5 grams per pound. So like blow past the one gram per pound, just to be 100% sure that that is not the bottleneck when it comes to your muscle. Second, all right, you've got to keep your training intensity up their intensity, I mean, your load, your volume, or your proximity to failure and of course, training for progressive overload and training for building muscle, even if you can't technically do it. Because you're deprived of all this energy, you act as if you're doing it. And this is where cardio and high rep type work. I

Philip Pape 53:03

don't like high rep work I don't I don't think necessarily need for that. And fat loss. Cardio is an interesting one, that could be a dial that you would use during this phase in either direction, either don't do too much, because it's just gonna totally burn you out. And you're gonna feel even more drained, or incorporate some of it low and medium, even a little high intensity cardio to kind of accelerate it even further, and potentially increase your expenditure where you're now burning even more calories. Or you could do it on a little bit less. However, big caveat there is as you're doing this rapid fat loss phase, it's so short, you don't really have time to see your expenditure change and respond to that. And so when I set up these protocols, I do it as a fixed protocol for the whole two or three weeks, I don't worry about what my expenditures doing. Because it's not long enough to be able to react properly to that. And then the refeeds every four days, five days, I like him four days dieting one day refeed that's what I like. So make sure the refeeds fit on the days you want where you want them. Okay, and then of course, get ready to come out of it. Like if you listen to my episode, reverse dieting is a complete waste of time, even after a big ggressive microcut where you've you know, you've lost five, seven pounds, and your expenditure might have tanked. Probably going to tank somewhat. Go right back to your expenditure right away or a little bit higher so that you recover very quickly. Okay, so I know this is a solo episode, it's actually going a little bit long, but I think it was worth it because we covered all of these fat loss approaches in much more detail than I sometimes have a chance to. And the question is, how do you choose the right one? Well, we've already talked about all the factors. So I hope that you heard your scenario in one of those, including your starting body composition, your body fat, how much weight you have to lose. What is your experience level, both with dieting, but also with building muscle and training? Right? And by dieting, I mean not that you've done diets, but proper nutrition macros, micros hydration supplements Shouldn't it's all in place. And ideally, you've gone through that standard fat loss phase before you try something more aggressive. Then of course, your lifestyle and your goals like what are your goals? What's your timeframe? What is your schedule look like? How do you feel when you eat this way, and so on. So if you're, again, new to dieting, you have a lot of weight to lose, I recommend the more conservative approach. And then gradually, as you get more experienced, you can go with more aggressive approaches. And that's kind of a cool way to mix it up. Right, it gives you time to build a sustainable habits, you don't get into the pitfalls of trying to go too quickly. And then as you get leaner and your body composition improves, you know, you get this fun chance to mix it up and try a little more aggressive. And you can always dial it back can always dial back, there's no right or wrong. Okay. And regardless of what you choose principles, remember the principles, prioritize your training to preserve muscle mass, eat enough protein to preserve muscle mass, and for your body composition and for satiety, take breaks or refeeds as needed, so that you don't get burned out. So you get psychological relief, and you continue to maintain your progress. Even though you're slowing it down a tiny bit, you get to continue and create that add that long term adherence. The last thing is, I want you to be honest with yourself about what is sustainable for you long term, right? Don't be afraid to adjust your plan if it isn't working. Okay. And there you have it, right. So the spectrum of weight loss or fat loss rates, how to choose the right approach. It's not a one size fits all what works for the person next to you that you're watching, and is telling you this is the perfect approach that worked for them, it may be the completely wrong approach for you. And so you've got to find that balance between making the progress but still enjoying your life still maintaining your health. And if you take one thing away from this episode, let it be this sustainability is king or queen when it comes to fat loss, short term and long term. So I don't want you to get caught up in the hype. I know you heard Rapid Fat Loss and you're like, Oh, I could actually do that. And I can do it the right way. When the rubber hits the road and you actually do it, it's tough, right? So start slow and build to where is the sweet spot for you. And along the way, you're building habits. These are long term habits. Okay, experiment, collect data, use macro factor, join the winter weights, Facebook community. And if you really need help to accelerate it and customize it for you, I want you to join Whitson weights physique University, we are open for enrollment link, as always in the show notes. All right, I hope you have a better understanding of your options for how fast you might lose weight. And again, if you want to apply these with a custom plan for you with a six month outlook with a proper rate of loss, and then you get weekly check ins and live coaching calls, monthly workout programs to take your physique to the next level. I definitely invite you to check out Whitson weights physique university, because here's what I did, I took the best of one on one coaching. And I rolled it into a community based semi private group coaching program that gives you expert guidance, accountability support, so that you get through any plateaus. In fact, you never hit them. That's the goal. You can build muscle, you can lose fat, like the way that we talk about here on WinSun weights, with no restricted diets with no excessive cardio without sacrificing who you are and your time and your lifestyle. And the university has been growing fast since we launched in April, and we're looking for some more brave souls to jump in accelerate their path to a dream physique. And that's why I recently updated the pricing structure to make it even more affordable. So if you want to learn more about that, and enroll, just head to Whitson weights.com/physique, or click the link in my show notes. Again, that's Whitson weights.com/physique, to learn about WWE you and join today so we can get you some clarity, and a custom nutrition plan so that you can start implementing right away what we talked about today, to build the Lean muscular physique you deserve. Again, the link is in my show notes. We're going to get some weights.com/physique. Okay, in our next episode 171, big butts, strong butts, we love them all, how to train your glutes with Sue Bush, we are talking about a fun topic, especially for the ladies out there. And that is how to build strong, functional and aesthetically pleasing glutes. Why do we love butts so much? What are the benefits of glute development beyond just looking good, and one of the most effective training strategies, exercise selection and programming considerations for optimal results with those glutes. Now, Sue and I were contributors to the March issue of body by science speaking of Dr. Bill Campbell. So she had me on her show recently, the physique development podcast, and if you missed that, go look her up and give it a follow. That's again the physique development podcast. And of course, make sure to hit follow right now in your podcast app for this podcast, which waits to get notified when Sue's episode comes out, and also support the show by increasing our number of subscribers. As always, stay strong and I'll talk to you next time here on the wits and weights podcast. Thank you for tuning in to another episode of wit's end weights. If you found value in today's episode, and know someone else who's looking to level up their weights or weights, please take a moment to share this episode with them. And make sure to hit the Follow button in your podcast platform right now to catch the next episode. Until then, stay strong.

Philip Pape 5/3/24 Philip Pape 5/3/24

Ep 169: Q&A w/Jeff Hoehn – Menopause Weight Loss, Bulking Without Getting Fat, & Cutting on Low Sleep

How long should you rest between sets? What to do if you're gaining too much on a bulk? Can women over 50 overcome menopause weight-loss resistance and is it a thing? How to train when transitioning from bulking to cutting?

In today's episode, fitness expert and coach Jeff Hoehn joins Philip (@witsandweights) as a co-host. They dive deep into various fitness topics in this Q&A session, including the challenges of weight loss during menopause, strategies for bulking without excessive weight gain, the optimal rest intervals for muscle growth and strength, and the impact of sleep on cutting cycles.

Jeff Hoehn hosts the podcast The Mind Muscle Connection. His podcast stands out for its science-based approach to fitness and nutrition, and the mental aspects of achieving overall wellness. Jeff's podcast covers a range of topics, including the often-neglected topic of body recomposition. For those who don’t want to bulk or cut exclusively, his workshops offer a holistic approach to achieving the best of both worlds.

Today, you’ll learn all about:

6:24 How long should you rest between sets for muscle growth and strength?
16:17 Are there too many cons of cutting during periods of low sleep? Should I just stay at maintenance calories?
23:50 I'm gaining a little too much weight in a building phase. What do I do?
41:10 How do I adjust my programming during the transition from a bulk to a cut? Which training variables are most important?
48:58 Is menopause and weight loss resistance a thing? Related to this, what's your advice on programming and nutrition for women over 50?
58:28 How do you "prep" before a season of "going nuts" with food (Thanksgiving, Christmas, etc.)?
1:06:30 Outro

Episode resources:

The Mind Muscle Connection podcast
Jeff’s IG: @jeffhoehn_

Episode summary:

Unlocking the secrets to effective muscle growth and optimal nutrition requires a deep dive into the science behind our bodies. In this co-hosted Q&A, we tackle the multifaceted world of fitness and nutrition, offering listeners practical strategies for different phases of their fitness journey. Whether you're in the bulking stage or cutting phase, understanding rest intervals, muscle growth, and the concept of a caloric surplus is essential. This episode provides listeners with a roadmap to fine-tune their approach for maximum impact on their physique.

In our discussion, we delve into the topic of rest periods during strength training. There's a delicate balance to be struck between allowing muscles enough time to recover and maximizing gym time efficiency. For those focused on hypertrophy, longer rest intervals can lead to increased muscle growth, provided the training volume is matched. However, it's equally important to recognize that shorter rest periods can be offset by increasing the number of sets to maintain training density. We also consider the impact of sleep deprivation on cutting phases, acknowledging the intricate relationship between sleep, recovery, and dieting.

As we shift gears towards the building phase of fitness, we highlight common tracking inaccuracies that can impede progress. It's crucial to run an energy audit to ensure adherence to nutrition plans, taking into account all aspects of diet and movement. Misjudging one's caloric surplus can lead to unintended consequences, making it imperative to have a nuanced approach to body recomposition. For those aiming to gain weight with a balanced fat-to-muscle ratio, understanding the dynamics of daily movement and metabolic rate is paramount.

We also explore the psychological nuances of weight gain, especially for women, who often face societal pressures regarding body image. The podcast offers strategies for muscle gain without excessive fat accumulation, emphasizing the importance of monitoring the rate of weight gain and the value of personal support in boosting self-confidence and motivation. As we approach the transition from bulking to cutting, the significance of maintaining training intensity becomes clear. We discuss the need for a structured training regimen and the benefits of auto-regulation to ensure muscle mass preservation during a calorie deficit.

Navigating the hormonal changes that come with menopause presents unique challenges for women over 50. This episode offers compassionate counsel, addressing the impact of decreased estrogen on sleep, stress levels, and fat distribution. We encourage strength training and gradual progress to build muscle mass, improve bone density, and maintain overall health during this transition. Moreover, we provide actionable advice for managing holiday feasting without compromising fitness goals. The podcast wraps up with strategies to enjoy festive seasons while maintaining a balanced approach to nutrition and weight management.

In conclusion, this episode is a treasure trove of information for anyone looking to master their muscle growth and nutrition. We’ve constructed a comprehensive guide to help you navigate the complexities of body transformation. Tune in and transform your training, nutrition, and well-being with us.

Have you followed the podcast?

Get notified of new episodes. Use your favorite podcast platform or one of the buttons below. Then hit “Subscribe” or “Follow” and you’re good to go!

Transcript

Philip Pape 00:00

Today I'm teaming up with Jeff Hoehn of the mind muscle connection podcast for a special co hosted q&a, where we'll share our thoughts on rest periods for muscle growth, managing your diet, unlimited sleep, what to do if you're gaining too much weight in a book, how to transition your training from a bulk to a cut, menopause and weight loss resistance for women over 50 and how to prep ahead of time for inevitable holiday feasting all in today's cohosted q&a with Jeff Hey. Welcome to the wit's end weights podcast. I'm your host, Philip pape, and this twice a week podcast is dedicated to helping you achieve physical self mastery by getting stronger, optimizing your nutrition and upgrading your body composition will uncover science backed strategies for movement, metabolism, muscle and mindset with a skeptical eye on the fitness industry. So you can look and feel your absolute best. Let's dive right in. Hey, everyone, and welcome to a special episode that dropped in two of your favorite podcast feeds, Whitson weights and the mind muscle connection. I'm one of your co hosts today Philip Pape of the wits and weights podcast. And I'm thrilled to share the virtual mic with a man himself Jeff Hoehn of the mind muscle connection podcast, Jeff, thanks, man for collaborating on this q&a. Yeah,

Jeff Hoehn 01:18

no, thanks for setting this up. You definitely took the lead on this, you were keeping me very accountable to making sure that this ran smoothly. So I appreciate your ability to you know, kind of keep things running smoothly. Like that was certainly helpful. And you do a great job with all this stuff. So really looking forward to doing this as well, too. Yeah, man,

Philip Pape 01:33

well, you always step up to the plate, I know how professional you are in the podcasting game. And it was super easy and efficient. I'll say to get ready for today. And we didn't have to do a ton of prep, but it's gonna be solid. Yeah,

Jeff Hoehn 01:44

your professionalism with the podcasting and how you have things set up, like, you know, it definitely was eye opening to me, especially the first time you know, when I came on before and and then getting this set up, like you definitely are really good at like getting this stuff together and, you know, different shows with how the podcast has grown and everything like that. So I'm just wanting to kind of give you a shout out for that, like super organized, man, I wish I had six of your organization skills. And I would be doing a lot better if if that were the case. So

Philip Pape 02:09

don't sell yourself short. Just you're one of the guys that listened to early on and inspired me. So like, you know, you get the information out there. And to this day, I have even my feet. So that's one of the reasons I reached out to you to do this.

Jeff Hoehn 02:19

I'm still on there. That's good.

Philip Pape 02:23

Like, there's Jeff again, man. No, no, for sure. So I mean, for those listening to my audience are in Whitson weights. Before we dive into the QA, I do want to quickly introduce Jeff, he was on an episode a long time ago, on I think we talked about maintenance. And he is the host of the mind muscle connection, Jeff Hoehn, one of the again, one of the shows in my feed, because you know, it gets to the nuts and bolts, the mental side as well fitness and nutrition, and it's all science based. But he also interviewed some really cool guests like Steve Hall, which he introduced me to, and then I had him on the show. Again, I'm grateful for that. The main thing is, you know, your shows are super practical. They focus on things like body recomp, which don't often get enough attention, but are important phases that a lot of people want to live in. I get questions all the time, like what if I don't want to bulk whatever I don't want to cut, I just want to kind of get the best of everything. And he's got a really good workshop on that as well. So I want everybody listening to my show to go subscribe or follow his podcast, which again is called the mind muscle connection. Over to you man. Yeah,

Jeff Hoehn 03:20

no, absolutely. That's a great intro. I appreciate that. So for my audience, as we're co hosting this, so Philip, as he posts the Whitson weights podcast he has a wide range of of coaches on I feel like every week you have new coaches on that you know I'm not familiar with so you do a great job I feel like bringing those those type of people on but also you've had you know, people that my audience is probably familiar with right you've had Brandon on I think a couple times you had Brian Borstein on you had Jordan lips on you had Steve Hall on um so some definitely some carryover there as well too. And I know for you you have multiple episodes a week when you go over nutrition lifting muscle metabolism and fat loss and I think you also give your unique perspective on things as well I know you had your shoulder injury surgery that you had recently so kind of getting that insight into it is super helpful. And so you know, you also do a great job of making it practical for everybody as well too. And I think that that's key right because you know some of the science based stuff it can go over people's head and we we feel like we're smart when we say it but it's like you know does people do people actually understand that as well. So I think you do a great job of that and like I said you're very professional you're super nice dude awesome do down to earth so I think that's another thing that can't go unnoticed and again, everything's professional from your podcast logo, do background everything the sound like it all sounds great. So make sure you give him a follow as well to follow and subscribe and enjoy this episode and obviously all future episodes on as well too. So again, looking forward to doing this with you.

Philip Pape 04:46

Awesome, man. I appreciate it. All of that and yeah, I forgot Brian Borstein is another guy. See if I just I listen to your show. I look you bring on him. Like let me just go reach out to that guy. I'm on my show too, because they're awesome individuals.

Jeff Hoehn 04:56

Well, I'll do that sometimes to where like if I'm like, Okay, you should bring it It'll always go and kind of check out other people's like podcast as well, too.

Philip Pape 05:03

You also mentioned something about science based and also making it practical. And it's funny, one of the episodes I actually got a bad review on on the podcast about was, I was talking about how fat is oxidized and released from the body and all this and it's like, this guy sounds like a Wikipedia article, and he doesn't know what he's talking about, like, Oh, my God, you know, stuff like that hit you you go. But then you realize there's always some truth in, you know, people are looking for an understanding. So even if there's a little bit of truth there, I want to keep improving based on that.

Jeff Hoehn 05:31

Yeah. And that's a cool thing, you know, with you, too, right? We like you said, you want to learn you want to get better. And, you know, instead of letting that holds you down, you, you know, you take it and you get better. And I think that that's, that's part of this whole process. And this is what I wanted to mention, actually. So it did come back to me, I knew it would, you also introduced me to, you know, listening to some podcasts on improving podcasting, and I am all about self development. And I like never thought about doing that. And so that's been super helpful. The podcast growth university that I listened to, and has been super helpful. So I appreciate you sharing that with me when we connect it. You know, I think it was like a couple months ago already. So cool,

Philip Pape 06:05

man. Yeah, no, all these are skills, right? They're just skills, you got to put time into them. If you can, right. We have busy lives. So it's like, which one do you do the training, the nutrition, the podcasting, and so on? All of them? Yeah. All right. Let's just do them all. It's it's more about harmony than balances. Somebody put it to me. Yep. Cool, man. So for today's q&a, what we did is we each chose three questions from each of our communities. So we're going to smush them together. But we'll do Jeff three first, and then my three, but we're gonna take turns asking them, and then you guys, the listener, and the viewers can hear both perspectives. So you get a really well rounded, solid idea of the things to consider in your own fitness and nutrition journey. So I'm just going to ask you the first one, which is from your community, Jeff, and it's a classic one about training. And that is, how long should you rest between sets for muscle growth and strength?

Jeff Hoehn 06:53

Yeah, so rest between sets for muscle growth. This is one that I get commonly, and I think one people overthink it, but then people also want like, this exact time, and I think they think there's this like, like magic amount. Now, as we get into this, there probably is a, you know, we're talking I think we need to understand that we're going to take this from a muscle growth and strength perspective, I do think from a strength perspective, there probably isn't a magic time. But there, you probably want to make sure that you know what strength it's, you're resting enough on in between, right? So we can we can kind of touch base on some of these numbers. But that's kind of the kind of background on that, right, like people will ask all the time, you know, when I remember back when I first started training, like, what do my rest engineers need to be? Do I need to sit there and kind of like, watch, you know, all my watch, like every last second and then and then go? Or can you auto regulate it a little bit more. And from my perspective, this is something that I have kind of changed in terms of like, I think you need want to be you want to auto regulate it a little bit more. And what I mean by that is, you can kind of have a time frame, but you want to kind of go off of your feeling and your feelings and how you're feeling in that moment. Versus like, Okay, two minutes, I got eight seconds, boom, okay, now I can go again, right? So I don't think you need to do that. So I think you can't auto regulate it. And so what I'll do is I'll go over, what are some things you can look at? And what are some kind of general times and then maybe when you know, when would this change? Right, so let's start from a muscle building standpoint. So in the research, you know, I think there was a recent study that kind of shows like, hey, two to three minutes, you should rest in between sets. And you know, that's going to lead to more muscle growth than if you rested for like, you know, 30 seconds or a minute, right. But when you kind of dive in a little bit deeper, when you actually match the volume, yes, if you're doing three sets, and then three sets, and you rest for like one minute, and then you rest for three minutes, because you're resting longer. And the three minute one, and again, I'm just kind of making up numbers here, you will see more hypertrophy, right? Because you're you're more rested, you can maintain that volume load, you can, you know, you can maintain your intensity. But if you add in a few more sets, in the shorter rest time, that can kind of offset some of that, right. So, you know, so kind of increasing like your training destiny. So like, if you do go shorter rest, you could potentially just restless and that will kind of offset some of that. Right? So that's kind of, you know, the background there on the, on the hypertrophy side of things. So I think like, what would be some practical numbers there, I think, again, two to three minutes, I think is solid. And then like, again, for more isolated stuff, maybe one to two minutes on there on that. But this is also also going to be dependent on how you feel, and probably the exercises that you're doing, right. So if you're doing more compound lifts, like stuff, heavier stuff, you know, probably closer to three minutes and beyond there potentially with that, because, you know, those are going to take more out of it for you, you know, more isolation exercises, bicep curls, smaller muscle groups, you know, maybe you can do closer to one minute, right. So those are kind of some practical numbers that you can take, but to be kind of to take it from auto regulatory standpoint. You could also kind of go off of, you know, your breathing in between sets. So if you're like, you know, sitting there like, hey, I need to do a minute and a half, but it's like a minute and a half and you're like breathing super heavy and you're not ready to go. It's like okay, maybe you need to rest a little bit longer there on that right. What does the target muscle feel like Right? Is it still burning? Do you still feel it? Okay. Maybe you need to rest a little bit longer. But if it's feeling good, hey, it's probably time to go there with that, right? So those would be my two big ones there. And then also like, again, if you're doing more compound lifts, you know, how's like your core feeling? Like, you know, is that ready to go? Or is that still tired? Because if that's still kind of tired and fatigued, you know, you might want to rest a little bit longer. And then just your general sense of like, are you ready to hit the next set as well, too, right. And again, I think if, if you can think about this practically, like, when you're doing like lateral raises, or bicep curls, like, Okay, do you need four minutes rest on that probably, you're probably all checking all those boxes off way earlier, there was that. So again, I think I gave you some practical numbers to hit. But then also, you know, you can utilize some of those other proxies as well, too. And then I think also, there are going to be times when you're training for hypertrophy, that you may do some like, incomplete rest periods, right, you may do mile rep sets, you may do drop sets, right. So again, those could be some things that you could potentially incorporate in. But just, you know, again, that would be the goal, there is incomplete rest on that, right, you're not trying to rest on in between. So I think from a hypertrophy perspective, I think resting longer is never a bad idea. Because you're going to preserve, like, you're going to be more recovered, you're going to be ready to go. And I think resting longer is not going to hurt you. Whereas I do think under resting could potentially hurt you. Unless that is the goal on there. If that the only downside with resting longer would be, that's more time that you're going to be at the gym, right? So if you want to kind of increase that efficiency a little bit, you can improve that. So I think that kind of summed up the hypertrophy side of things pretty well. I can go into strength, or I don't know, if you want to kind of hit on the hypertrophy side first, before I go into strength or Yeah,

Philip Pape 11:27

yeah, I can. And we were joking beforehand that like, we're gonna agree 90% on this stuff. And you're like, exactly, mirroring the notes I had, I had, like, you know, some of the studies originally suggested one to two minutes, and I'm like, but I like two to three, and you're like, Yeah, two to three. So the only things I would add to that is, if you're not used to these slightly longer rest periods, especially for strength, as we're gonna get into it, it can help to have a timer initially, almost like tracking your food, it's just get, you know, giving you a baseline of what that feels like. Because for some people, two minutes might seem like a long time, if they're used to just banging out reps constantly in the gym. The other thing is, I do love the autoregulation and feeling it, give yourself more time if needed, for sure. And then don't get distracted to like some people in the gym, you know, they get on their phone, they start doing email and stuff. This is not really answering the original question necessarily. But if people give themselves a license to rest for five minutes, it can become eight or 10. If you start walking around looking at your email, and then you mentioned the intensity techniques already, which, you know, just this morning, I was doing, you know, bicep curls and like, drop sets. And you're right. In that case, the goal is to shorten the time. And the main reason for that is usually time efficiency. Eric Helms and Mike Soto's came out with an article just in mass yesterday, I think about drop intensity techniques, and they covered three different ones, and then compared like not using them versus using them and how you can save like a half hour in the gym every time you go. So that could be a really good reason for it.

Jeff Hoehn 12:48

Well, on you're kind of resting too long in between, I think from like a physiological standpoint, you're not going to do any harm by resting that long. But from like a mental perspective, like you said, What's your engagement now of what you're doing right now, it's like your, your mind is elsewhere. So I think that would be the thing to, you know, look out with with that. Like, it's not like a, you know, again, if you were to like study things physiologically, like you're not going to see a difference, you might see a little bit better, because you're resting longer, but it's like mentally, like you're just not going to be as engaged I feel like anymore, because this reminds me of when back when, during COVID, I was training at home, and there's just so many things that you can freakin do at home that you can't do at the gym. So it's like, I just found that, like, I just met from a mental standpoint, I wasn't staying as engaged in the workouts for that reason, again, the longer rest may have been helpful, but you know, because I wasn't as like mentally engaged that that was that was the issue there. But But you make a good point on like, getting started, like if you're used to, like, you know, maybe more of like a circuit style of training, like kind of like, like those kind of like group classes, fat loss style workouts, that may be a little bit of an adjustment for you, like you said there with that. But I think also, as you get more advanced and you do it, like you start to learn how to, you know, kind of push yourself a little bit more from a hypertrophy perspective, I think you, you get better at that. And you almost kind of want a little bit of a longer rest time where it's like, initially, I could see where you know, maybe you do have to like, go slightly lower with everything because you're just not the intensity is not there yet and everything like that. But that goes back to what we talked about with like the proxies on this wall, too. So

Philip Pape 14:16

yeah, one last thing is you alluded to the strength regime of just being longer rest periods. Right. And I know I found early on when I started I did starting strength years ago, and it was like, Yeah, you can rest 578 Even 10 minutes. Oh my god. It's crazy until I got into super heavy sets of five deadlifts and like now I understand I get it. Yep, I need all the rest and went by rest. I meant like sitting on my ass for just that time and letting my heart rate and everything was to get restored. It's crazy. Well, on

Jeff Hoehn 14:43

strength real quick, that's where you do probably want to make sure you do rest a little bit longer in between because with strength, you know, we're kind of want to make sure you're fresh and you're able to lift the lows that you need to so that that would be a time and I feel like you do a little bit more kind of strength as type two raining overall, at least from what I see on Instagram. So you know, that would be something that like, you would want to make sure that you do rest enough if you're going for strength, right, because you really do want to make sure that you're recovered and ready to go where I feel like with hypertrophy, we have a little bit more of a leeway there. With that potentially, right where it's like with strength, you're not, you can't use that kind of concept that we talked about of like resting less, and then getting in more volume, because you want to make sure you can move the heavy loads that you need to lose in our move and strength. So that would be kind of the only difference there from like, a strength perspective versus muscle growth.

Philip Pape 15:30

Yeah, in fact, it's kind of cool. You can take a hybrid approach almost where if you're doing a like a heavy, like medium style program, on a heavy day, you're going to take full on rest as long as you need. But light medium day, you're probably pushing speed and volume anyway, so that you can use rest periods as a training variable, you know, you I've had, like programmed in, I'm going to do 30 seconds, or I'm going to use 90 seconds, specifically to show progression week over week based on that rest period. Kind of an interesting angle. Yeah,

Jeff Hoehn 15:57

no, absolutely. I love that. Cool. Any any anything else you wanted to add to that one or anything? You want to?

Philip Pape 16:01

Keep going? Yeah,

Jeff Hoehn 16:03

good. We gave people plenty of plenty stuff, I think to work with on that. But we never really gave an exact number. And that's unfortunately, I feel like how it always is going to be you're never going to get an exact number with things there. One

Philip Pape 16:13

to 10 minutes there. No, no 30 seconds to 10 minutes.

Jeff Hoehn 16:16

Figure it out. Cool. All right. So another question I got was, Are there too many cons of cutting during periods of low sleep? Should I just stay at maintenance calories?

Philip Pape 16:25

So when I hear a question like this, my instinct is just to say yes or no. And then I stepped back as a coach. And I'm like, why are we asking about low sleep? That would be the first question I want to know is, you know, is this a temporary part of your life? Because you're going to have a baby? And you're going to have like three months where you know you're going to be shot? Or is it something you've identified something you've like, accepted as part of your life? Or is it a job issue or something like that with your schedule? And you just can't get around it? I don't know. So that's the first thing I would ask is do you have to have like all this low sleep, because I think sleep is on the top three things that affect your your strength and muscle development and recovery, along with training and nutrition, like in my opinion. So I would ask what it is, if it's, if it's a temporary part of your life, I would say maybe not a good idea to cut at the same time. Right? If cutting isn't something you absolutely have to do for some specific reason. Maybe do it when you you know you're outside of that period, consider the long term consequences of that, because cutting calories on top of sleep deprivation is going to have just a massive impact on your insulin, your hunger hormones, your satiety, your, you know everything, it's gonna be harder to stick to the calorie deficit, let alone the stress that it's putting on your body. So yeah, I would say they kind of go against each other. But if you're going to be at a period of low sleep for the next three years, and there's nothing you can do about it, you might have to make some trade offs to fit in, you know, a very conservative cut at some point. But make the trade off. So you're not going all out aggressive on your cut, and all out five hours of sleep a day. That's my first thought on that.

Jeff Hoehn 17:55

No, I mean, that's a good point, right? It's like, okay, well, why are you getting that that poor sleep? Right? Like, are you just accepting it? Because you don't want to get more sleep? Or is it like you actually have something, you know, going on? Because I think that's like you said, that's super important to find out there. Because you're probably going to have to fix that at some point, if you really want to have, you know, you want to prove your body composition, and things like that. Yeah, no, I mean, those were all great points. And then like you said, though, if you can't like something's going on, and you're not gonna be able to get good sleep for three years, or something like that, or whatever it may be, like, you know, if it is going to be three years, like, yes, going into a less aggressive approach is probably going to be the way to go there with that, right. Like you said, like, you know, maybe we're not going to be able to go all out and lose as much, you know, weight as we want, it might have to be a little bit slower there with that to offset some of that. So those are, those are great points there with that, but I think this person specifically that asked, I think they was like a, I think they just had a new child. So that would certainly be a time they're not going to get great sleep. And we both would probably be like, Hey, we're not going to cut during this time, right. And I think you kind of hit on it. The big things are higher hunger, right cravings, you know, that's going to lead to poor decision making lower willpower, right from that, which is just going to make the deficit harder, just going to, you're just going to have like more friction, like you said, insulin or higher hunger, things like that. But for me, the big thing is the lean body mass loss rate, that would be the thing that I would be most concerned about there with that, you know, with the lean body mass loss, so there was a study, and again, I don't have the exact study here, but they they looked at two groups, right? So one group had eight and a half hours of sleep, another had five and a half hours of sleep. And they both were in an energy deficit, the group that was at five and a half hours, lost more lean body mass, they lost the same amount of weight, but they lost more lean body mass, right. So that just kind of goes to show that, you know, potentially that's going to be a thing that we need to look out for here is that lean body mass loss, which in turn, I think with that leads to other issues down the line, right? We lose lean body mass during fat loss, you're probably going to be a little bit hungrier and then on the way up, you know, you're going to want to regain that weight and now you do that quickly. Now you're going to gain more body fat. Now you're going to be at the same weight but more Fat, less less muscle there. So I think the lean body mass one to me, is the big thing that we need to look out for there with app. So

Philip Pape 20:07

question about that study, do you know what the training and the protein was? Like there?

Jeff Hoehn 20:11

I actually went over this on my Instagram, and I'm pretty sure so I'm gonna pull it up. I'm gonna look, I'm gonna keep talking while I go through this, but I'm pretty sure that they weren't weight training. Right. So that's obviously a big thing there with that. Like, obviously, we want to make sure we wait train. I don't think they track protein. Right? And I would imagine that if these people weren't training, they probably did not care about protein either. So that's a great point. Right. And I think that was one of the kind of caveats I had with this study was that what were those two things there that if you have anything to say, let me know. I'm looking up. Yeah.

Philip Pape 20:43

I mean, nonetheless, and I'm not, you know, challenging it. It's just I always ask those questions about the studies. Because hopefully, if you are training and eating protein, that impact is lessened if not negligible, I don't know. I know sleep deprivation, there are plenty of studies that show just a cascade of very negative impacts, even when you're gaining weight, right in terms of like fat storage, visceral fat storage, and stuff like that. And a lot of people misconstrue, like the lack of sleep and weight gain, as as if it's causing you to gain weight. But I think a lot of it just comes down to the loss of muscle mass, like you said, but and also the hunger, just the ravenous hunger, people will consume, like 500 calories more a day, by just by having an hour or two less of sleep on an ad libitum type type diet. So did you did you find it? Well, I

Jeff Hoehn 21:28

did it and so on that real quick before it before I dive into that, like you said, in from my understanding, we just have this higher propensity to want more highly palatable food. And that process as well to which you know, that's going to lead to like eat, you know, higher, like, you're going to want that that tastier stuff. So if you have that on top of it, your willpower is lower, like, you're just going to want more and more of that there. So that's going to be an issue. So with this study, so I did mention there was some limitations. So this is by the del Sheva in 2010. So just just to give somebody actual name there for that they might post I made, I said, there were some limitations to the study, it was a small sample size, so it wasn't a lot of people. Okay, um, it was only 14 days. So it was only two weeks, they didn't lift weights. And obviously, when we look at lean body mass, it's not just muscle, right? It can also be glycogen storage, it can be bones, organs, water, and everything else that is in body fat. So we also need to take that into consideration there with that, so yeah,

Philip Pape 22:24

yeah, and I don't want the person asking the question, to use any of that as a reason not to listen to everything we're saying here, which is, don't cut aggressively and lose sleep all at the same time Pick, pick one or the other, or make the trade off, I see it as kind of like a seesaw. You know, one, one can be a little worse, one a little better. And you can, as one gets better, you've got a little more leeway on the other. It's just a matter of trade offs, and how you feel really the biofeedback that you're tracking along the way. Yep.

Jeff Hoehn 22:48

And I know probably anybody that's gotten poor sleep, like you just know how it can, how it can impact you. From that perspective, I think the motivation to write like, now you're going to be less motivated to train and want to do those things that you that you need to do as well, too. So cool. Yeah. So again, this would definitely be a time that I like, and it sounds like you're in agreement with me, like, if it's a short term thing, we're probably not going to fat loss diet. During this time. I literally, I just actually, before we hopped on here, I had a conversation with a client about meal thinking about going into fat loss. And it's just like, I mean, if you if you don't do it right now, it's like, can you never do it again? Like, do you have to do it right now? You know what I mean? It's like, I think a lot of times, we think that we have to like go into it right now. And if we're not fat loss, dieting, we're not gonna see any progress whatsoever. And that's just not the case. Right? So I think sometimes taking the pressure off of that can be super helpful.

Philip Pape 23:36

For sure. Yeah. And a good coach or community who's telling you that just like, Look, do you really have to do this? If not, I'm giving you the tough love. Let's not you're gonna feel so much better. We can fit it in another time when it makes more sense. Let's check all the boxes first. And let's go. So yeah. All right. You want to go to the next one? Yeah, for sure. yet? I'm ready. So Question three. This is the last one from Jeff community. And I'm asking it to Jeff question. I'm gaining a little too much weight in a building phase. What do I do? Yep.

Jeff Hoehn 24:01

Cool. I like this, because I thought this was a great question. Just because, again, you know, a lot of times people have that urge to just go back to cutting. Right? So I think real quick, I'll go what I described as a building phase, because I think there's some semantics involved with this, like, what exactly is the building phase? Right? To me, a building phase is just a period of time where you're out of a calorie deficit, right? You could be at maintenance, you could be in a surplus, but we're trying to minimize fat gain, maximize muscle growth, and really just the main thing is we're trying to get out of a calorie deficit, right. So you know, within that kind of parameters there, you may end up gaining some weight, right? So I think the big thing is, you know, if you get to a point where you gain too much weight, like what do I do? Do I just go back to cutting or, or whatnot. And I think we have some options here is it isn't just hey, you have to do you just have to cut right and I think doing that too much I think can lead to issues, right? If you just go straight into like, Oh, I've gained a little bit of weight I need to go back to cutting. I think that's from body comp standpoint. I think you're setting yourself up for failure in that situation. So I think if you can find some ways to potentially improve your adherence for whatever it is, during this building phase, it can go a long way. So the first thing I would do in this situation is I would run an energy audit with a client, right? So an energy audit is going to be like, Okay, are we out here? Are we to the plant? Right? Are you adhering? And you know, a lot of times I think people think they're more adherent than what they are. And then you actually, like, dive into and it's like, holy crap, I'm actually only adherent 60% of the time. It's like, well, boom, you don't need to make any adjustment. Just frickin we need to improve that. Yep, that's the big thing first, and that's the boring like, oh, no, that that can't be the issue. But, you know, Philip, I'm sure you can say the same thing here. Like when it comes to nutrition, adherence is the issue.

Philip Pape 25:34

I think,

Jeff Hoehn 25:36

I think you're gonna see 90% I think I'm underselling how much it is. So it's at least 90%. And probably more than that, probably 99%. Right. So looking at adherence, and I think, you know, so again, like, that's the first thing that I would do on there that also looking at just your movement, where's your movement at? Right? Could that potentially be increased? So again, is it just your steps, or whatever it is, has that potentially gone down? So kind of looking at that, but from there, you know, I think when it comes to I don't know, everybody's little bit different in terms of how they monitor food intake with their clients and stuff like that, but I do like to have clients track calories and like, at least protein. And so for them, that's going to be, you know, are there some potential tracking errors that are going on? And again, if adherence isn't the issue, the next thing that really can hurt people from like, a calorie perspective is tracking inaccuracies. And it's, some of it is on purpose, right. But I think a lot of the times, it's on accident as well, too. I think that's more of an issue than anything is just on accident, right? You, you know, you forget, you know, I couldn't even tell you what I ate, you know, yet? Well, I could, that's a bad example. But you know, some people can't remember what they ate, you know, or they can't remember what they did yesterday. So how are they? How are they going to remember what they ate? You know what I mean with that. So, you know, that's the first thing there is, you know, you might forget to just block some things, you got a million things going on, too. You know, even if something says it has a certain amount of calories, it can be off by up to 25% plus or minus, right. So then we already have that, like, that's a potential issue right there on that you can be off, if you like to go out to eat, you know, just because someone says it's 500 calories, the chances of it actually having 500 calories are slim to none, right? I mean, the depends on the chef, how they make it, what the you know, who's working with what serving size they give you their with that. But then there is, again, people just forgetting how to or the serving sizes side of things, right. So again, like getting your serving sizes off could be could be a big problem, as well to there with that. So, you know, looking at your tracking, are you tracking your condiments? Are you tracking correctly, right? And typically, you'll you'll find that people are off there with that and potentially fixing that, right. So we're going to run an energy audit there and see if there's anything that can change there with that. And, again, most of the time, you're going to find that, hey, that's off. So then, you know, that's the first thing that we can do there is work on that adherence to everything, run that energy audit and see where we need to make any adjustments on there. If that. So that'd be the first thing. And again, like I said, a lot of times, that's going to help, because you know, when you go into building phase, you're going to, you're going to get to the point to where maybe you aren't tracking as much now because you're not in a fat loss phase. So you know, you have that, you know, to potentially look at there with that. So I don't know if you had anything I have a few more. I didn't know if you wanted to comment on that one first, before I go into the other ones. Yeah,

Philip Pape 28:05

you're already knocking off all the bullets on my notes, which is no surprise. Because the first thing I said, the first thing I would have asked is how are you tracking because I want to look at all of that, like you said that the errors, the adherence, everything else, as well as look at the expenditure side of the equation, some people may not even know either what surplus they need to be in to gain the weight they want to gain, they are in the wrong surplus for what they're trying to gain. And that's what I want to touch on in a little bit. And or, like you said, you know, things are shifting in a direction that is unknowable, because your tracking is off. And so data, data data, right? Like the better the data coming in, the easier the decisions going out. And then if you're just not making the choices based on what the data is telling you, that is a different issue. So why don't you finish your list? And I want to just address one piece that I that I might be a different angle here. Yeah,

Jeff Hoehn 28:53

those are all great points, man. Like I agree. And I think the calorie one is, is a huge one that a couple other ones I had the other options you have. So again, running the energy audit, and like I said, most of the time, like you're gonna, you'll probably find something there that you can fix on with that. Again, it's something there from adherence or anything like that. Next, you know, if you do find that everything's good, and like you said, you might just be eating more calories than you want potentially. Or maybe you just like pick the wrong number. Or, again, you're accidentally just eating more overall, you can decrease your calories closer to maintenance, right? I think a lot of times people think that like, Oh, hey, I have to be in a calorie surplus, I have to be in a calorie surplus to build muscle. That's the only way and it's like that's not necessarily the case. Right? Like I think that, again, the leaner you are, the more muscle you want to build, okay, we probably want to push a calorie surplus but if you have a moderate amount of body fat, you know, you want to push like your trainings in a good spot or, yeah, if you're on the leaner side, you want to build a lot of muscle like at some point you will need to get into a calorie surplus right to continue to build muscle but I think if you fall outside of those things where you're like it moderate body fat levels, you know, you don't want to be Mr. Olympia right like you have some wiggle room here too. don't necessarily have to be in a calorie surplus, right? And I think even within a building phase, like yeah, maybe you started out lean and you have a lot of muscle, but then you kind of gained some body fat in the building phase, like, I still think you have some wiggle room there to potentially go down to maintenance and continue to build muscle, right? Because again, you're you're at higher body fat levels. Now, I think people underestimate that aspect of an energy surplus is what are your current body fat levels, because that's, that's stored energy that you have, right? Right then and there, right. So you know, you have that option as well to to decrease your calories closer to maintenance, as well, too. And that's, you know, you can kind of recap in a way, right, maybe you're not going to lose body fat, but you're going to be adding some muscle with not adding any more body fat. In that process. Again, so long as your train is in a good spot, your, your sleeps good, you're getting enough protein and things like that,

Philip Pape 30:43

for sure, man, I want to piggyback off that, because the idea of going back to maintenance. First of all, I love that idea is like a reset. Because if you if something else is off if your adherence or movement or tracking has changed. And the movement I know we didn't talk a lot about but I mean, if you you know, if you're if you're moving 5000s, you know, steps less a day, because you're no longer in fat loss, you're like, Well, I don't need to move as much that could be, you know, pushing down your metabolic rate, and all of a sudden, you're in an accidental surplus, not even meaning to be. But the idea of going back to maintenance. If you do that, and then you're still gaining weight, you know, you weren't really at your maintenance, like, you know, you didn't end up paying maintenance. So that tells you something, too, one little extra thing I want to throw in here is let's say you're doing all the things and you are tracking well, and you know, your step count, and everything's consistent. And you're still quote unquote, gaining more than you want. I would ask, are you calculating the surplus correctly, if you have a coach, hopefully they know what they're doing, and they're getting you in the right surplus. But one rule of thumb I've been using a lot lately is the 2500 Calorie rule. And I want to explain that for the listener. Because a lot of people don't have heard about this, we know about the 3500 Calorie rule, right, roughly 3500 calories of energy in a net pound of adipose tissue a net pound of fat to lose fat. So when we lose weight, if we want to go one pound a week, it's 3500 calories, or 500 calories a day. Pretty simple, like cocktail mat, napkin math, when you gain weight, however, we're not just gaining fat, right, we're gaining some ratio of fat and muscle muscle being about five times as dense as fat means that you don't need as many calories to gain one pound that contains half of as muscle. And so it's roughly two thirds. If you just ballparked it and said okay, instead of a pound a week, I would actually need to gain two thirds, not pound, but two thirds of the calories a week to gain that pound, if I'm going in a surplus. And therefore if you're using the 3500 Calorie rule, you're actually eating a third more than you intended. So just a cool little fact for people trying to like fun, suck it and figure out their maintenance, their surplus calories is actually going to be less than in a fat loss phase.

Jeff Hoehn 32:45

Yeah. And again, to piggyback off that, like I think that's great. I think that's a great way to set it up to make sure you don't, you know, gain too much fat in the process. I like and maybe you do this too, but I like going off of like percentage of body weight gain as well, because I'm kind of that kind of tells you where exactly it's at. Right? Like if you start gaining a little bit too much weight, you know, Jetstar, the quicker you gain weight, the more it's going to be body fat. So if you can kind of go off of where your your weight is trending over time, like that can be super helpful on there to make sure that you are you know, it's going towards more muscle than body fat. Yeah,

Philip Pape 33:17

I like point two 2.3 For most people, I don't know if you're in that range to that's like, yeah, ends up being

Jeff Hoehn 33:23

about like a percent a month or something like that. When you when you kind of zoom out there with that. Yeah, I mean, that's the way to go. Because then you can kind of like that helps. In your specific example there where it's like if you set your calories too high, because you have to be a certain amount of calories per week, like, oh, I need to be a 500 calorie surplus. It's like, well, for you, that may not be a 500 calorie surplus. It may be more, maybe less, because our bodies are you know, pretty adaptive. From that perspective, there was that.

33:48

Before I started working with Philip, I had been trying to lose weight and was really struggling with consistency. But from the very beginning, Philip took the time to listen to me and understand my goals. He taught me the importance of fueling my body with the right foods to optimize my training in the gym, and I lost 20 pounds. More importantly, I gained self confidence. What sets Phillip apart is the personal connection. He supported and encouraged me every step of the way. So if you're looking for a coach who cares about your journey as much as you do, I highly recommend Phillip Pape.

Jeff Hoehn 34:30

So the other option and this is kind of like this isn't super helpful, but it then they could just keep going as well too, right? Because, you know, at the end of the day if you really want to build muscle like I think you've been taking some time away from like being out of a calorie deficit like yeah, you're gonna gain a little bit more body fat in the process, but is that the absolute worst thing in the world right now if you're gaining crazy amounts of body fats like okay, obviously you're gonna you know, depending on where your body composition is at, you might want to work on that but at the end of the day, is it the worst thing in the world to gain a little bit of body fat for you? For a period of time, right, like, is that going to be the worst thing for your physique? Is that going to be the worst thing for your health? You know, probably not, again, unless you're already over 20% as a male over 25% is female like then okay, maybe we probably don't want to just keep adding body fat, but that's my next one. That's just like, potentially just just keep going on with it. You know, I think that's that's another option as well, too.

Philip Pape 35:19

That's true, because we didn't even ask the person when they say a little too much weight. Is it just a reframing thing? Is it just they're uncomfortable with something that they've never done before? And maybe this is a female too, because I tend to get that I tend to not have problems with most of my male clients gaining weight. They're like, yeah, deadlifts are going up. Let's keep going. But you know, more with women that I'm feeling uncomfortable, I'm feeling fluffy. My pants are a little tight. Maybe that's where we focus on all the other things that are going up in a positive direction. You know, like our lifts, and like our bicep circumference, and all the other fun things? Yeah,

Jeff Hoehn 35:50

no, I mean, like, like I said, you know, yeah, looking at other things, and reframing it is super important. Because again, you may not act like you said, What is that little bit of weight? Is it like, Hey, you gained two pounds over six months, like, okay, all right, that's a different than, hey, you've gained 15 pounds in six weeks? Right? That's a different conversation. So definitely clarifying that, as I'm sure you've noticed, with being coached to like you got it, you do need to ask these kind of follow up questions. There if that So, alright, so the next one would be just enter your building phase, right. But I want to caution on this. Because I think if you're only been doing it for six weeks, it comes back to what we talked about earlier, you need to work on the adherence, you need to work on these other things first, right, like, that's going to be the most important thing. But if you've been doing it for 1824 30 weeks, you know, maybe it's just time to end the building phase. Now at this point, right. So, you know, that's another option there where, you know, kind of seeing where you're at, and how long you've been in the building phase can be key. Again, like I said, if you've been not doing it for a while, we need to work on these other things. But if it's been a while, hey, maybe it's just timed to end it at that point. Yeah,

Philip Pape 36:50

exactly. I mean, it really depends on why they're asking the question. So I'm also good with, you know, five, six months continuous building is a nice point to shoot for, to know for sure. You've got all the enabling them that you can out of the phase and not cut yourself short die these days, like to go nine or 10 months, because then you do a mini cut for two months, and now you're eating a lot of food 10 months out of the year. And who doesn't like that? Right? Yeah,

Jeff Hoehn 37:12

absolutely love love eating that food. Yeah, no, I agree, though, I think if you can, because I think when it comes to building muscle, I think there's some momentum to it, right. And I think if you're kind of going in and out, you're just going to break up that momentum, and you're never really going to, you're just not going to be happy with your physique, you know, long term with that. So So I think having that momentum on the super key there with that, and then you kind of just hit on the one that you said there the last option. And I leave this last because, again, I think this is dependent on the person in your experience and everything like that. But the last one would be doing a mini cut. Right? And I think it depends on your kind of definition of mini cut, because like I said initially, like with the building phase, it is partly semantic, like in terms of like, Hey, is it a bulking phase, like it just depends, right. And I think with fitness, there's a lot of this like, it's one person means this it this way another. And so when I say a mini cut, I'm talking a mini cut, during a building phase where you like, you would decrease your calories more than what you'd like typically do and like a regular cut, right? This is like a very short term, like anywhere from like three to six weeks where you really cut your calories. And you could potentially use a mini cut now, in that, you know, you're really going to decrease your calories. And the goal is going to be Yes, a little bit of fat loss, but part of it is going to be ramping up your hunger. So you know, if hunger is something that you're dealing with, where you're having a lot of hunger, this might not be a good option for you, because part of the mini cut is you're going to increase your hunger on their fat, and it's going to give you more runway to continue adding weight. But what I will say I would only do this, if you're very experienced Dieter, and you're working with a coach, those would be like, if you fall outside of that, which I would say most people fall outside of that I wouldn't do I would be careful with mini cut. But again, this comes down to you know, you mentioned the mini cut, you may mean something slightly different from that. So I'm curious to kind of hear your thoughts on that.

Philip Pape 38:54

Yeah, I mean that in that case, I just made a short duration cut between my bulking cycles. However, I did on my last building phase, do a two week like Bill Campbell ask Rapid Fat Loss protocol. And it was like an experiment with the whole community, like 12 Other people sign on, we did it together. And that was just it wasn't even for hunger. It was more of an experiment of can we reset things just a little bit, you know, on the scale before we continue and it worked pretty well, right? Because you could cut a lot in two or three weeks if you're just going all out. And honestly after you've been eating for eight months, you might feel like it's a nice relief for a while on your gut and everything else. And then you just you know you lop off three or four pounds of pure fat and then you continue for another four months after that. So yeah, that's what I meant. Yeah.

Jeff Hoehn 39:37

So So sounds like it was yeah, pretty pretty similar to kind of the the definitions there because kind of like you said, you know, I think sometimes when people hear many cut, they think it's just like a short term cut, like I'm just gonna cut for four weeks, right? And yes, that is a mini cut. But this is where like, we need to be careful with like definitions and kind of what exactly you mean there. So those are the things you can do if you gain a little too much weight in your building phase. One last thing that I want to hit on real Quick on this and this kind of overlaps. Everything is if you don't feel like you're making good progress in your building phase. I think sometimes people put too much stock in the nutrition. While it is important, right? What did I say was one of the main goals of building phase, we want to be out of a calorie deficit. But I think people overlook the training side of things they want to like, have this perfect macros play perfect surplus. It's like, okay, well, what's your training look like? And it's like, oh, well, you know, I just go and do this, they don't have a game plan. You look, they're training six plus reps in the tank, or they're not doing enough volume, it's like, do your training needs to be on point, that's the most important. So if you feel like you're not seeing the results that you want to see in a building face, like, look at your training, I think that's the most important thing and see if you can make that a little bit more geared towards hypertrophy, you know, if obviously, building muscle is your main goal, so that kind of over laps, everything there. Um, with that, that would go into like, the first thing that we would be looking at on this wall, too.

Philip Pape 40:50

Yeah, 100%, you don't want to go to waste. You don't want all that weight gain to go to waste. And hopefully, there's things you can track that can tell you that that's happening, like your waist size is just ballooning. And your lifts are not going up. I mean, right there. That's a pretty obvious indicator. But uh, yeah, no, I think we covered a lot on that one, we feel free to go to the next question. If you're good. Yep. I think that's I think it's us. Okay. No, no. All right.

Jeff Hoehn 41:10

So this is from your community. So how do I adjust my programming during the transition from a bulk to a cut? Which training variables are most important?

Philip Pape 41:18

So you know, this is a big topic, right? Like, we could easily fit a two hour long episode talking about training during a cut. And originally, I was going to answer the question directly, like, what are the variables I care about. And at the end of the day, I think they all matter. I like intensity, you know, like load as the driving variable for holding on to that muscle mass. But I do think there's a still a lot of play between, with volume with sets with recovery, too, because recovery is going to be even more important, if you want to think of it as its own training variable can be helpful. When it comes down to those the overall answer here is, if you can have a program that helps you auto regulate, you mentioned autoregulation, before in a different context, but for training, whether it's rep ranges, whether it's percent, or whether it's RPE, even set progression, like a lot of ways to do that, you'll be able to continue pushing and training hard, you know, we talked training, hard proximity to failure, if you rep shy of failure, whatever that means. And that's really what we're trying to get right is that stimulus. So for me, I like hypertrophy style programs with rep ranges, I like, like percent RM based like Westside style can be actually useful in a cut, believe it or not, where you're pushing your one RM for the day, which may not be your PR, but then you can do back offs based on that, so that, you know, you're hitting it hard. And then I also like the idea of spreading out fatigue, not locking yourself in the idea that it has to be three days, five days, six days, whatever, that recovery is very hard to come by, the more deep you get into a fat loss phase. So all of these forms of autoregulation that, that let you just train hard and get the stimulus is kind of the principle based answer that I wanted to start with. And then we can get into things like okay, but what about specific training variables? And this will, I'm going to turn it over to the master Coach and Trainer jumping?

Jeff Hoehn 43:03

No, I mean, that's a good point. Like, I think no matter what, like you said, even if you're in a cutter, ballpark, you want that training intensity to be there. So that's, you know, super important, like that needs to be there. And again, this goes back to like, hey, what's the what are these specific variables? And it's like, are you pushing yourself? Is that effort there? Right? And if that's not there, like you need to make sure that's, that's there. So I think like, as far as like some some smaller things go. I mean, like, when I saw this question, like, the only thing I could really think of that I say would be different because like you hit on the intensity, like we still want that to be there would be maybe like, again, this is from a building muscle perspective, that's usually where I come from on these things is maybe volume, but there's no like direct research that shows hey, you need to do more or less volume, I think it comes back to what you said auto regulating it like like, how do you like, can you recover from it? Or if you are, then you know, you should? Probably, you know, you can keep it the same? Maybe you could add more, right? If you're recovering from it, if you're not recovering from it, do you need to decrease a little bit? Or do you need to look at your sleep and and other things outside you need to improve? Like, if you're going to cut D maybe you need to change your meal timing around and make sure you have plenty of food around your training sessions. Right? Those would be things there with that. But I find that, you know, again, the big thing that you want to do is if you're transitioning from a block to a code is you really don't want to change anything, I think you need to I think you need to train the same right train, like you're still going to build muscle act like you're going to build muscle I think a lot of times, and this is why I hear from clients that are going into phallus eight oh, well, you know, I just know that training is gonna suck. And I know I'm gonna not build any muscle during this period of time. And I'm like, Are you sure though? Are you sure that you're not going to do that? Is that more of a mental thing that you think? Because you've heard this that like, Oh, hey, that's going to happen. This isn't the best. You're not like surplus, you're not going to build muscle. But we have research that shows that you can still build some muscle in a small calorie deficit under the right circumstances, right. So because I think if you go into it thinking like training is gonna suck. I'm not going to build any muscle. I think mentally now you go into your training sessions. And that kind of impacts how hard you can push yourself and your training and then yeah, now you're gonna set yourself up to not It really pushes hard. So I would kind of challenge not you, Phil, Phil up on this, but I would challenge the listener like, are you for sure not going to build muscle? And are you for sure going to like your your train is going to be impacted? Right. So I think another day, you don't want to change how you're training, your weight training in a cut from a bot to a cut?

Philip Pape 45:19

Yeah, yeah. So I have some more things that came up since you just triggered a lot of great discussion there. One is about the maintaining of muscle mass. I mean, we've seen studies that show as little as like 1/8 of the volume is potentially can maintain your muscle mass. Now, I believe that's not necessarily also, while you're in a cut, like there's some trade off you're making. But it takes a lot less volume to make just maintain muscle mass. Like Jeff said, you know, maybe you can still even build a little bit, or you may need to over overcompensate for that, that minimum during fat loss, because you don't have all the resources coming in, you know, you're trying to get the protein higher, you don't have any carbs, you're probably sleep is a little bit tougher to come by. And all of that. The second thing is people don't realize you're losing weight. So if your reps stay the same, and your loads the same, your relative strength just went up, right? That's really important from a framing perspective to say, No, I'm not actually getting weaker, I'm just getting lighter, you know, get it, it's like when you're the other direction, you do chin ups, and you get heavier and you get the same reps. Same thing, you actually just got stronger, right? So think about that. There's also a difference between strength and muscle mass in that, you know, the lack of energy and lack of resources and lack of carbs may cause you to feel like you're less strong, or like you're losing strength, when you might still get the reps and you're still holding on to that muscle. So there's a lot of psychology and mind games going on. And then recovery, I do want to come back to that, especially for us older guys. And ladies, when life is there's a lot of life stress, you know, sleep can be a little bit hard to come by, you know, you're worried about the joints and all that now you're lifting heavy with very few calories coming in, it can all kind of add up together to where you really have to pay attention to that biofeedback of your soreness, and your ability to get through a session, you know, think about like, Are you training fasted or not, because that can make a big difference. When are you eating your carbs during the day, you're gonna have, you might have to make some subtle changes based on this, like limited pie of food coming in. The last thing I was thinking of is if you are more strength focused, and you're doing like a sets across, or a five by five, three by five type program, that is going to be very difficult to progress during fat loss. And you could get discouraged if you're not just pushing the weight every session. So that's where you want to get creative and maybe, maybe switch to like rep range scheme. Or even I've done something in the past Jeff, I did a set space progression during fat loss that was super effective, where you start at like three sets, you do like three, then four, then five, and six, and then reset and a slightly higher load. And the body's ability to kind of handle the submaximal, third fatloss seems to be more effective. And then you're still getting all the volume. So just throw a whole bunch of details in there that I thought that came up from, from what you mentioned. Yeah,

Jeff Hoehn 47:59

no, I mean, you brought up a ton of great points in there. Yeah, I think you really don't want to change much other than and I think, again, auto regulated, right? Like if you can do if you can do more, and you recovered, then do more if you if you can't, then you know, obviously, look at those other things, see if those can be improved, but understand, hey, it might just be a little bit lower, I do think in a deficit, potentially, everything will just maybe feel a little bit tougher, right? So you maybe need to kind of push through that kind of mental fatigue, like you've mentioned, the mental fatigue, so you might need to push through that a little bit more. And you might start to feel it sooner, right, like in a surplus or maintenance or surplus. It's like your sets of 10. It's like it starts to get hard at rep nine or 10, where it's like in a deficit, it might be seven or eight that it starts to get a little you know, something like that. So keep taking your creatine to imbalance.

Philip Pape 48:47

Keep taking creatine. Yeah, this question was asked by Christos by the way and I know him and crystals, man, just just keep training like you're training when you go into the cut and then see how it feels and report back in our community. We'll see. We'll help you. Yep. All right. Let's go to the fifth question. Again. This is from my community. Evelyn asked this one. Another big hot topic these days. Is menopause and weight loss resistance a thing related to this your advice on programming and nutrition? For women over 50? big topic? Yeah.

Jeff Hoehn 49:13

So I mean, I definitely think that as you age, you know, things change. Right? Do I think that, obviously, there's a ton going on in menopause that, you know, we can't we can't relate to, but there's a ton of, you know, hormonal change going on. Right. So I think that's the big thing there is that it just changes things a little bit, but in those things can definitely impact you. Right. So I know like as your estrogen will go down. And that's going to, you know, that's going to affect many things from from a woman's perspective, right. But I think it's more the lifestyle and I think people underestimate this right. So, you know, I think one kind of common menopausal symptom is like poor sleep, right? What did we talk about sleep earlier, man, that's going to increase your hunger cravings. You're going to be less motivated to do things you're not going to make as good of a chore He says, right. And I think that has a trickle down effect right now you begin, you don't want to go training, maybe you're not moving as much. Now, poor sleep can lead to higher stress, you know, higher stress can lead to like you talked about visceral fat, right? That can lead to some fat accumulation in midsection, particularly, right? So it's, to me, it's more of a trickle down effect of what's going on, right, and maybe not working with your body and instead, trying to work against it and relying on things that maybe you thought, you know, you thought you were supposed to do. And again, maybe worked for you when you're 20. And now it's like your body's just, you know, changing a little bit, and it's just less receptive to it. Right. And I think currently, there's kind of current state of people that are in menopause, that demographic that are going through that currently, they kind of grew up with this, like, you need to be skinny, you need to be as small as possible, right? And that stuff kind of has her with them. Because I know, any client I have in this age range, that's like the thing of like, they're just very, like, if they gain a pound, it's like, oh, my gosh, what is going on? You know, again, that's an overgeneralization. But that's, I don't know if you can relate to that. It seems like that's kind of how it is with this kind of, you know, that demographic,

Philip Pape 51:03

if I if I wake up and I see very long messages from clients, I know. It's easy, like, Please help. And it's this the whole story of what's going on, which is cool. That's what your coaches for. Often it is related to just a little bit of framing and kind of panicking that goes on, but it's okay. Yeah, yeah. I mean, I mean, to add to some of that, you know, the note, the big note that I had had was, you know, menopause is this major change and transition in your life, it's physical, it's physiological. But it's also tied in for a lot of women with other things that compound that you've got the life stress, you've got kids, which then lead to less sleep, you've got things like hot flashes, which also can interrupt sleep, the loss of muscle mass that has been occurring if you have not been training. And for women, it's exacerbated by the hormonal change and bone density decreased. And we can go on and on. And like Jeff said, lifestyle is the first thing I would go to for all of this stuff. Once you get that dialed in, of course, if things are off, like difficulty, I knew someone who had, you know, she gained like 80 pounds in six months without changing anything, you knew something was up, and it was her thyroid. And that can happen as young as I've seen eight years old, right? So a lot of women out there that, you know, I know, we're talking menopause, but like the gaslighting in the medical industry and everything that leads to decades of not dealing with the issues. But for many women, that's not the case. So I don't want you to use it as like an excuse and the tough love, like, you know, we're a couple dude, coaches here, we've worked with a lot of women, and a lot of them tell me like, just give me the tough love and help me, like, do what I need to do. If I'm doing all those things. And I know there's still an issue, okay, let's, let's look at hormone therapy, and whatever else, and take care of all the things outside the gym as well. Like, definitely train hard with intensity and execution. Ladies, that that's an area of improvement for a lot of you. It's, that's cool. Definitely progress over time, right with to show that expression of strength and muscle mass over time, it's going to make you you know, strong, fierce, lean tone, whatever word you want to use. And all the things outside the gym, you know, your stress the recovery, right, like how we handle food and the emotional issues around food as well. Like it just goes on and on. So it's a big topic. But like Jeff said, like, we have compassion for all of you. And we want to help you win this thing on your own with complete freedom and control using lifestyle changes. Yeah,

Jeff Hoehn 53:15

no, I mean, he hit on it perfectly. Right. Like, I mean, it is like, like we said, like you said to like, we know it's a tough time, right? Like, very empathetic towards that. Right? Like, oh, pay just, it's, you know, whatever, like, so. Yeah. No, we're not saying that. But, you know, I think a lot of times people overlook that. I would say, from a programming perspective, I can just kind of hit on maybe some few, like, kind of common mistakes I see from a programming and nutrition perspective, with this demographic, I think it's one, I think it's the way they train, right? I think it's, you know, again, it's, I think they're kind of mindset towards exercises. More sweating, or feelings, like the exercise is super hard, getting that heart rate up, I have to feel like super beat up, right, like more cardio based kind of style training. I'm gonna get I think any exercise is great. So I'm don't want to bash that. But I think for this demographic, like, this is where we have to like, again, get out of that mindset of what worked in the past. And now we need to start to shift it towards working with our body. And so like, you kind of hit on it like, hey, let's, you know, let's do some cardio. Right, but let's do it for our heart health. Let's not do it for fat loss purposes, right? That's going to come through some nutrition interventions. But from a training perspective, hey, we, at this point, we need to work on weight training. Again, yes, for muscle, but for bone health, too, right? Like in this demographic. So we need to make sure we weight training needs to be we need it to be in a progressive overload style, as well, too, right. So that's the big thing. So the mistake there is training in a way that's just going to burn the most calories. Right? With that. From a nutrition perspective, I think two big things that I see is one trying to always fat loss diet. Okay, so that's another big mistake here because we talked about losing lean body mass, we talked about the bone density thing, but also if you're not sleeping, well, we this goes back to what we talked about earlier, right? You have that issue and you just have a lot of other stress going on again, adding a calorie to So to that all the time is going to be a stressor on the body. So I'm not saying don't ever fat loss, but I think it would be being smarter about it being in a smaller calorie deficit, and doing it less often there with that, right. And I think the other thing, and these, I guess, kind of go hand in hand, or they're two separate, but I'm going to lump them into one is protein, like I think protein is something that is important. I personally think proteins may be been overblown now, like it's kind of swarmed to where like, people are over relying on protein. But I think in this demographic, you do need to make sure you're hitting about one gram per pound of body weight. Again, if you're overweight, maybe a little bit less than that. But I do think it's important and you know, make sure that you're you're getting enough protein in again, you don't have to get massive, massive amounts, but he makes sure you get enough. But also carbohydrates, right? Do make sure you're getting some carbohydrates as well, too. I think that's only going to help things there with that. And so those would be my kind of like big things, aside from the lifestyle stuff there.

Philip Pape 55:48

Yeah, I love it. I'm glad you mentioned carbs, because that has been a game changer for a lot of women I've worked with. And there's such resistance, sometimes even when they're open minded to the idea of doing it, there's still this like, built in either societal or trained behavior, over years of being told carbs are bad. And I hear it in the A lot of times in the women hosted podcast space, where you've got like the Keto and the low carb, like that is the thing for hormones, you know, for Perry and post menopause. And I'm like, I don't understand it, it may be the thing for an individual for sure. And that's one of the messages we want to get through is like, there's something different for everybody. But ask everybody to experiment with these things. And if you're low on energy, if your training is tough, if your sleep is poor, if your hormones seem off carbs could be the answer, believe it or not, carbs give the answer just eating more food. Speaking of so you cover training. And actually, the original question was also about his weight loss resistance of thing. And I did want to address that quickly. Yep, I think for men and women, as we age, with the loss of muscle mass, if you're fairly sedentary, if you're not training, your metabolic rate is just going to slowly go down over time due to the loss of muscle mass, but also probably lifestyle, you know, you're sleeping less all the things we talked about before, higher stress, less movement, you're sitting at a desk all day, it just all adds up. And so the appearance of weight loss resistance is definitely a thing. It's only resistance, because you can maintain it, you can't maintain your weight on the same counter as you did 20 years ago. Without all these other things, the really exciting part about it is you can reverse that you can bring it back the other direction, so that you can break through and then it doesn't become a thing. Just knowing that for women, it could be a tiny bit going against you with the hormones, but it's it's in the noise compared to the lifestyle signal, if you can, if you can improve that. So just wanted to touch on that. No,

Jeff Hoehn 57:36

man, that's a great point, right? The weight loss resistance, right? It's like not Oh, hey, you're in menopause now. And all of a sudden you can't you know, drop weight. There was that? You know, that's that's not the case. Right? Like, again, like you said, things could be a little bit tougher. But ultimately, it's probably the things that you're doing there in your history of, again, what what do we talk about the the kind of demographic here and like what they've kind of been like taught is like, eat less, move more burn as many calories as possible in that that does, like your body will adapt to that. And so like you said, there it's like, but the cool thing with that is it's not, that's not permanent, right? Like you can do some things to start to improve that as well, too. But you may find that initially, it is a little challenging because your body is just adapted to that. And that's kind of what your body has had to work with. So you kind of sent that message. But But the cool thing is, is you can you can change that by doing some of these things that we

Philip Pape 58:23

that we talked about. Yeah, no, I think that answers it. For Evelyn. So maybe we go to the last one. Cool.

Jeff Hoehn 58:28

Yep. How do you prep before season of going nuts with food? Like Thanksgiving, Christmas? And this is from from John. So, John, you're the only person that would do that?

Philip Pape 58:39

No, but I do love the question. I like I want it in there verbatim. Because I think this is a great reframing opportunity. The first thing I would ask you, John is like, are you really planning to go nuts for like, a multi week or multi month binge fest? Right? That's, that's one thought. Or is this more like, you know, you know that there's a few days coming up here and there the parties in the holidays there one or two days at most? Usually for most people, maybe maybe a few extra days? And is this where your current eating is, is restrictive, and then the holidays come around, you feel like you can't enjoy them because you're trying to adhere to that, you know, form of eating. I mean, that's one thing I would ask just from a reframing is you could probably for a lot of people I would say who I coach just relax and enjoy the day, right? Like just enjoy yourself. You may not even need to track you may not even need to plan and the most that it's going to do is if you over consumed by 2000 calories or 3000 calories, you're still gonna gain less than a pound of body fat. However, however I'm gonna say that if you're gonna enter a period where you expect to indulge more, I would say is everything dialed in to begin with right like for John I'm just gonna say all the other things in the rest is podcasts apply to you too. And is all that dialed in? Because I'll tell you what if it is like I don't I don't even think about holidays anymore. I'm like everything's great holiday comes join myself moving On the next day you get back on track, you don't make up for it, and you move on. However, if you're gonna go on a cruise for a week, I get it, right. There's like Unlimited, very rich foods available to you. Can you plan ahead? Sure, like you can be prudent and have a little bit of restraint, if you'd like ahead of time, and have maybe even do a little mini cut or whatever you can, you know, you can prioritize your protein, you can, you can maybe bank a tiny bit of calories here and there. There's little strategies like that. But I think the most important strategy is just to plan for it, and give yourself a plan of what works for you that doesn't feel restrictive. And that could be like, Okay, I'm gonna have three drinks instead of unlimited drinks, you know, of alcohol, or I'm going to eat all my protein and salad type foods first, and then I'm going to indulge on, you know, grandma's apple pie. Like, it's just simple. We're adults here. And like, I heard somebody say, in a podcast, you can go to the grocery store right now and buy an entire cake and eat the whole cake if you want, like, we have that choice as adults. You're not going to do that, though. And so there's a spectrum of choice here. So let's reframe it. Let's not sweat over it. And let's do all the other things we talked about in this episode, I think it'd be golden. What do you think, Jeff? Yeah,

Jeff Hoehn 1:01:07

no man, that those are great points, like definitely, like, have some sort of structure to it, right? I think this were sometimes like, like, from a mental perspective, you can start to see how people think, with some of this stuff, like, oh, I need to, I need it to be all or nothing, right? I either need to be fully on it, or I can't do anything at all. It's like, okay, well, you're, you're missing out on a ton. And if that's your thought process, it's not to me, it's not the Thanksgiving, this issue that now it's a mindset thing that needs to be worked on there with that, right. This reminds me I reached, you know, I like to put money away, you know, for my investments account, you know, my retirement accounts and things like that, well, I kind of got to a number in my head that I needed to put away each month. And it's like, lately, you know, expenses are up. And I haven't been able to put all that in, but I'm like, thinking I'm like, Dude, why I don't need to put that in, I can put in a lesser amount. And it's fine. Like, it's still going to help build it, you know, but I started to see this like, kind of all or nothing mindset dig into it. I think that kind of reminds me of that there. So, but no, you had great points there, like have some sort of structure, something is going to be helpful on there with that. And you may have kind of hit on this, but like some things that I fought over, like, it's not those events that are issues, it's what you're doing outside of it that I think is the most important, like, if you're staying on top of it, then again, maybe not even 100% Well, that's better than you just like, Well, yesterday was Thanksgiving. So you know what, now I'm gonna also go and eat two pizzas for the day, it's like, come on, alright, you know, you need to, you know, what you're doing outside of that's going to be key. But like we said, I think other things that can do are lift weights. Because again, if you're say you are in some sort of energy surplus, and you're lifting weights, well, hey, that's going to be better from, you know, that can help you build some lean body mass on the process, you know, make sure you're moving, getting your steps in, you know, throughout that time, because that's gonna help you expend your or increase your energy expenditure, right? I think this period of time comes with, you know, colder weather. And I think people tend to be less active during this period of time. And if you're not weight training, and you're not staying active, and you are eating a lot of foods, like, where's that food gonna go? You know, you're not really, your body's gonna be like, Oh, well, well, hey, let's store this as body fat, right. Whereas if you stay active, and you lift weights, like that's going to help shuttle that, that food into place, like, again, to your muscle, that will shuttle it to your muscle, right, and you can use it for energy, and it's not going to get stored as body fat. So those would be the big things there with that. And maybe here's one like blessing, I would add to this as maybe kind of reframed, like, when you're going to like, try to drop weight or lose body fat, you know, is that the best time to do it then Right? Can you maybe, you know, from like, October to January, maybe that's your maintenance time, right, you're more focused on just you're not focused on losing weight, you're more focused on lifting weights getting enough food in but not too much. So then that way, it's like, because if you go into the holiday season, coming off a coat, you lost 20 pounds, you're being restrictive, you're super hungry, well, now it's gonna be really hard to manage that period of time. So maybe use that as a time where, hey, I'm not going to fat loss diet during this period of time, I'm gonna wait till you know, January starts or something like that, you know, it's just another potential thing you can add in there.

Philip Pape 1:03:54

Yeah, that that was actually added. I wrote that as you were talking, and then you, you beat me to it. But yeah, aligning your period of periodization of your nutrition with the year or with the seasons is really good. I mean, I almost inevitably do that with clients, we try to kind of, depending on when they start during the year, we look at that, and we say, okay, it doesn't make sense to be fat loss, you know, have a fat loss phase here, or would we rather be eating more here, and this can go for the short term as well, if you know, you're going to have two week long vacation or you're going on a trip or something like that. Those are moments for diet breaks, those are moments for going back to maintenance. If it's a bunch of those, like in a short period, like three or four months, maybe that's your bulking or your maintenance season. I know Jeff, you're you're big on like recomp and maintaining kind of that leanness. So, but I would even say if if you're willing to just gain the weight, that's a perfect time to do it as well. I tried to do that because most people who aren't tracking any of this stuff who are not in our world, gain all their weight in those couple years. Yeah, months of the year, which is insane. When you think we got 12 months out of the year and the gain at all then, but if you intentionally gain there because you're building muscle, then great then you just solve the problem. You just offset problem, because the rest of the year tends to be easier, quote unquote. Yeah,

Jeff Hoehn 1:05:03

no, absolutely. And, yeah, just make sure you're lifting weights in that process. You know, I think anytime you're if you're going to be gaining a little bit of weight, if you can lift weights, that's going to help offset some of that weight gain, you know, at least helps shuttle it to for better use on their app. So yeah, man, I

Philip Pape 1:05:18

think that's it. I don't know if we want to add anything else to this or shelter. I feel good with it. Cool, man. So I mean, that was a lot of questions. But I thought it was nice to have both of us there and kind of share our perspectives and yet bounce off each other. And, you know, thank you for doing this. Because this is co hosted episodes, drop it on to podcast, if you're listening, it's Whitson weights and the mind muscle connection. And you got to see some similar but unique perspectives from two different coaches who both, you know, can we care a lot about our clients and about you as a listener, as well. And at the end of the day, you've got to find what works best for you, and find the information and a community or coach that can help you, especially if you want to, like accelerate getting to that answer for you. So those are those are my closing thoughts.

Jeff Hoehn 1:05:57

Yeah, no, I want to thank you for like I said, You got all this setup, man. I thought this was super fun. And I would love to do more of these. I think it's really cool to get these questions from both of our communities and share our thoughts on them, as well. But ya know, I mean, like you said, there was a ton of information in here, but I think probably the takeaways are, get good sleep, lift some weights, and look at your mindset and work on that with the coach, because that can be super helpful there with that. So yeah, ton of great information, I think a ton that you can take away in this. So yeah, I think now I'll hand it back to you there for

Philip Pape 1:06:29

that. Yeah, yeah. And for those listening, like, if you want to hear us do this, again, send us a message. You know, we both have our contact information in the show notes, whether it's IG or email and send us your questions or just tell us what you thought about the show and anything we could do differently. And to the Whitson weights community. Don't forget to look for the mind muscle connection in your podcast app. Go subscribe and follow right now. You won't regret it. You'll get a ton of awesome episodes in the near future. I think he drops like three weeks of just solid gold. And I'll include the link to the show in my show notes. Yep,

Jeff Hoehn 1:06:58

absolutely. And same thing for my audience. Go fall Whitson waits, subscribe leave a comment as well too. I'm Phillip loves those comments as well. He loves He loves getting those I know you also have a really good community on this wall too. And I think you just opened your replica education platform as well too. I think that you

Philip Pape 1:07:15

Yeah, man. Oh, thanks for the plug as well with some weights physique University, its courses and community. Yeah. Sounds

Jeff Hoehn 1:07:20

awesome. Sounds like stuff that would be right up the audience's alley there that social media definitely go check that out. And again, man, appreciate you putting this together. You definitely have to say and I said this earlier, Phil, Phil definitely took the lead on this and really got it together. So appreciate that. And like I said, it was super organized all on your part. I'm so appreciate that. Man.

Philip Pape 1:07:38

given each other spot. That's what we do. Yeah. All right. It was a lot of fun, man. Thanks for doing this yet. Thank

Jeff Hoehn 1:07:43

you, too. I had fun.

Philip Pape 1:07:46

Philip Pape 4/30/24 Philip Pape 4/30/24

Ep 168: Reverse Dieting is a Complete Waste of Time

Are you worried about regaining fat after a successful cut? Is reverse dieting really a shortcut to a faster metabolic rate, or just a fitness fad? Are you ready to ditch the reverse dieting rollercoaster?

In this eye-opening episode, Philip (@witsandweights) dives into the controversial world of reverse dieting. You’ve probably heard the buzz about how it can boost your metabolism, prevent fat regain, and make future weight loss a breeze. But is it the magic solution it’s cracked up to be?

Philip cuts through the noise, reveals the hard facts, and dismantles the myths surrounding reverse dieting, backed by science and practical insights. He dives into the metabolic science, behavioral psychology, and practical alternatives that work far better for post-diet recovery and long-term weight maintenance.

If you're considering reverse dieting after your cut, listen all the way through so you understand both the mechanisms AND the more time-efficient strategies Philip will give you so you don’t ever need to reverse diet again. It’s time to rethink your approach and embrace smarter, more efficient methods!

Today, you’ll learn all about:

4:28 What is reverse dieting
6:48 Metabolic adaptation
10:01 Regaining body fat and maintenance calories
17:06 Does it increase your starting metabolic rate?
20:08 What to do instead of reverse dieting
25:00 Why people do the reverse diet
32:31 Outro

Episode resources:

Watch this FREE video on how to setup MacroFactor for body recomp and try MacroFactor FREE with my code WITSANDWEIGHTS

Episode summary:

In the ever-evolving landscape of fitness and weight management, one concept has recently come under scrutiny: reverse dieting. Philip Pape challenges the traditional notions of this practice in a thought-provoking podcast episode that dissects the science behind immediate calorie maintenance post-diet and its effectiveness compared to reverse dieting.

The episode kicks off with an in-depth exploration of reverse dieting, where Philip provides a critical examination of the metabolic science and behavioral psychology behind it. He suggests that reverse dieting may be overhyped, supported more by anecdotal evidence than by solid scientific data. The concept of slowly increasing caloric intake to boost metabolism and prevent fat regain, Philip argues, may be unnecessary and could prolong the physical and psychological stress associated with calorie deficits.

Delving deeper into the topic, Philip confronts the myths surrounding reverse dieting head-on. He emphasizes that a gradual increase in calories post-diet may not be necessary for everyone. He clarifies that while some weight gain is normal when transitioning from a deficit to maintenance, this is typically due to changes in water and glycogen levels rather than an increase in fat. By understanding one's maintenance calorie needs and embracing a more immediate return to maintenance calories, individuals can avoid the unnecessary extension of their diet and the potential risks that come with it.

Philip also touches on the physiological reality of post-diet metabolism, dismantling the myth that reverse dieting can lead to an enhanced metabolic rate for future weight loss. He presents evidence that indicates the body's metabolism will naturally return to normal levels once calorie intake is increased. Moreover, he discusses the concept of a "recovery diet," which promotes a quick adjustment to maintenance calories, enabling faster recovery from dieting without the need for a gradual calorie increase.

The episode then shifts to practical considerations for those unsure about their maintenance calorie needs. Philip points out that individuals who have been diligent with tracking their caloric intake throughout their diet likely have a better understanding of what their maintenance calories should be. He notes that for physique competitors and those who have undergone extreme diets, a more cautious approach to increasing calories might be warranted due to the specific metabolic and digestive adaptations they may have experienced.

As the episode wraps up, Philip introduces the MacroFactor app as a tool for listeners to log their food intake and analyze metabolic changes. He argues that using data-driven methods to quickly and effectively reach maintenance calories post-dieting is far superior to the nebulous practice of reverse dieting. With the app, users can accurately track and adjust their maintenance calories, allowing for a personalized approach to weight management.

Philip presents a compelling case for immediate maintenance calorie adjustment over reverse dieting. By basing weight management strategies on scientific evidence and practical application, he empowers listeners to sustain their results and challenge the fitness status quo. It's an essential listen for anyone seeking to maintain their weight loss achievements in a sustainable and scientifically sound manner.

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Transcript

Philip Pape 00:00

Maybe you've heard the claims that slowly increasing calories, in what's called reverse dieting can boost your metabolism, prevent fat rebound, and make future weight loss a breeze. Or even that it's a simple way to get back to maintenance calories without overshooting. It sounds tempting, like this magic bullet that eases your transition out of a diet without erasing your hard earned progress. A nice simple solution that almost every coach out there says you should use. But as I'll show you today, reverse dieting is a complete waste of time, backed by more hype than science, if you are tracking in a few important areas. In today's episode, I'm going to break down exactly why and what to do instead for faster recovery and sustainable results without worrying about body fat overshooting. If you're serious about optimizing your nutrition and doing it in a time efficient way, get ready to challenge what you thought you knew about reverse dieting. Welcome to the wit's end weights podcast. I'm your host, Philip pape, and this twice a week podcast is dedicated to helping you achieve physical self mastery by getting stronger. Optimizing your nutrition and upgrading your body composition will uncover science backed strategies for movement, metabolism, muscle and mindset with a skeptical eye on the fitness industry so you can look and feel your absolute best. Let's dive right in Whitson weights community Welcome to another solo episode of the weights and weights podcast. In our last episode 167 optimize your thyroid for hormone health, metabolism and fat loss with Haley fountain. We explored thyroid health which affects everything from your weight and metabolism to your sleep and even your mental health. You learn how to manage your weight when you have a thyroid condition. The link between minerals and thyroid function and why exercise and nutrition are so important and what you should be doing, as well as how the mind body connection and sleep all play into thyroid health. Today for episode 168 Reverse dieting is a complete waste of time, we are going to bust some myths surrounding the popular but misguided practice of reverse dieting. Many people and even some well respected coaches, many whom I follow and some are my mentors claim that reverse dieting can boost your metabolism, prevent Rapid Fat regain and make future weight loss easier. Others simply recommend it as a tool to slowly pull out of a deficit without overshooting and gaining body fat. But as we'll see today, none of these reasons really hold up. The claim that I am making today is that reverse dieting is a complete waste of time. And I'll explain exactly why we're going to dive into the metabolic science, the behavioral psychology, the practical alternatives that work far better for post diet recovery, and long term weight maintenance. And if you are considering reverse dieting after a cut, listen all the way through so you understand both the mechanisms and the more time efficient strategies that I'll give you. So you don't ever need to reverse diet again. Now before we get into that topic, I do want to invite you to join our amazing and totally free Facebook community. In that community and that group we come together to support to encourage each other to inspire each other on our nutrition and fitness journeys from 100% positive perspective, no bullies are allowed. And as a member of our Facebook group, the big thing that you get access to is the exclusive weekly live q&a sessions. And this is where you post during the week, you can post your question about anything related to your nutrition and fitness wellness with context for you specifically, and then I will answer it live on Friday, and the replay will be available. You also find a ton of free guides resources and other things that we drop just to the community so you can stay on track and reach your goals. Most importantly, though, you'll be part of a bunch of really cool like minded people in a group that I think is like no other we are all working toward becoming the best versions of ourselves. And you can get formed checks you get motivation, you can get specific tips, whether it's equipment, or food or apps or whatever. And we love to celebrate each other's wins and successes, give helping hands when asked and then motivate when needed as well. So just head over to Facebook search for the Whitson weights community or click the link in the show notes to join us. Alright, so let's dive into today's topic. Reverse dieting is a complete waste of time and we're going to start of course with definitions. What the heck is reverse dieting, maybe you haven't heard of it before, or if you have one a little refresher. So reverse dieting is gradually increasing calories, usually by 50 to 100 per week, maybe 200 calories for several weeks or potentially months after, usually after finishing a cut or a fat loss phase and weight loss phase. And the idea is to slowly build Up to new maintenance. It could also be used when you were first getting started. And you've been dieting for a long time. And then a coach says, well, we need to reverse diet you up to your maintenance, you know, so that you can eat more food and burn more calories and so on. Now, Proponents claim that this approach, not all proponents, let's be honest, but a lot of them will say that this repairs your metabolism or fixes your metabolism after the supposed damage of dieting, and that it prevents Rapid Fat regain from jumping to maintenance or above it Prime's you for easier fat loss in the future by elevating your metabolic rate. And some other coaches simply claim that it's the best way to return to your maintenance calories to do it, you know, slowly over time, and you don't overshoot. So some coaches claim some or all of these, and even other things besides that, and basically, the theory is that your metabolism slows down during a diet, which does happen, and that you need this long, gradual reverse dieting process to restore it and avoid overshooting into weight gain. And I understand the surface level appeal of these claims. Because dieting is hard. And we'd all love a magic bullet to make both diet life easier and more predictable. But unfortunately, the science doesn't really support the necessity, or the efficacy of reverse dieting, particularly if you have the right information and you're tracking the right things. And that's where tracking is going to come in. We'll get to that later in the episode. If of course you lack certain information. And you don't have the complete picture. Reverse dieting might be the fallback simply because you can't go after the most efficient approach. But you're listening to which and wait. So we are all about the wits side of that supporting the weights in that we want to do things intelligently and efficiently. So let's get into a little bit more about metabolic adaptation. Because this is the underpinning a lot of a lot of the arguments for reverse dieting. So first of all, describing post diet, metabolic adaptation, or the metabolic adaptation that occurs during dieting, as any form of damage or irreparable harm is completely misleading. Because yes, your metabolism typically slows down as you lose weight. But it's completely recoverable. And it happens for two reasons. Number one, you're simply losing weight, so you have a smaller body that requires less energy, period. Number two, and this is what I think is really what we talked about with metabolic adaptation, your body down regulates its hormones to conserve energy in response to being in that deficit. And that has a cascading effect. Now, there's a third element to why your metabolism might go down, that is more what's in your control. And that is your changing activity, or your lack a lack of sleep, or you drink alcohol, or maybe even your cycle, or let's see too much chronic stress, right? There's all these little things that can, the things that are in your control your lifestyle, changes your lifestyle decisions that can make your metabolism go up and down. independence of the fact that number one, you're lighter. And number two, the hormonal metabolic adaptation. So the slowdown that just happens naturally, that's out of your control, which we can call adaptive thermogenesis as well. It is not at all any form of long term damage. It is more like a survival mechanism that we evolved so that we don't starve to death in a famine. And that's all it is. And it's 100% reversible. We know this, because bodybuilders who go through extreme cuts, to the most leanest level, you can imagine. They reverse right out of it. And I use the word reverse. But we're going to talk about the alternative to reverse dieting, but I'm using reverse just in the colloquial sense that they, you know, reverse the direction out of it. And they are able to get back to their previous metabolism eventually,

Philip Pape 08:45

no problem. So how do you will say reverse colloquially, your diet or your metabolism? Well, the simplest way to do that is just not being a calorie deficit. So this is the thing about metabolic adaptation is, and I was talking to, I think Jordan lips about this when he was on the show, it's a trade off we are making, knowing that we're making it so that we can lose the fat. So yeah, we're trading this metabolic adaptation. But in exchange, we get the fat loss we are going for. And you could go more aggressively, of course. And if you go more aggressively, the adaptation tend to be more severe. But also the fat loss happens faster, right? So it's a trade off. And the opposite of any of this is just not being a deficit. So if you can restore your energy balance back to your current maintenance, that is the best way to flip your body out of that mode, and recover and not be adapting anymore. And here's the thing, there's no evidence that this requires a slow calorie increase over days, weeks or months. And that's kind of the key that I'm going to get to today. And I touched on it at least once before in my an episode A while back about reverse dieting that I'm going to link in the show notes. And I'm touching on some of those again today if you hadn't heard that, or if you need a refresher, but I will come at this with some They're angles that you hadn't heard before. So the other key factor that people are worried about with reverse dieting is are not worried about what the but they why they think they need it is regaining body fat. So we've talked about hormones before, right? Your fat cells produce leptin is the satiety hormone keeps you full, and that stimulates your metabolism. And if you have more body fat, there's more of that. So while you're dieting, and it reduces that and reduces your metabolic rate, when you regain, not necessarily the weight you lost, but when you're stopping the loss of body fat, it also normalizes both. And again, what does that mean? That means going back to maintenance calories, and doing it as fast as possible, not necessarily the way that reverse dieting is going to have you do that. Okay, so stick with me, you see what I'm suggesting here, reverse dieting, which can be a gradual process is not necessary. If you know you can go straight to maintenance. So the claim that reverse dieting rebuilds your metabolism better than going to maintenance and it's going to cause all these other negatives, like we're just gonna avoid body fat overshooting is pure speculation. And it's driven by the fact that a lot of people have no clue what their maintenance calories are at the end of a diet. They've been guessing the whole way. They've been trying to reactively keep up with their changing metabolism by lowering calories, but they're not really precisely sure where that is. So if you're not precisely sure what your metabolism is, it's understandable, you would be afraid of overshooting that because you're like, Well, you know, I think I'm in a 500 calorie deficit. So I could just go up 500 calories. But what if I'm actually been metabolically adapted more than that lately, and I've only been in like a two or 300 calorie deficit. Well, now if I go up 500 calories, I'm actually in a surplus, and I'm gonna start gaining fat. That's where all of this stems from. Okay, so let's talk about fat regain a little bit more, right? The idea that reverse dieting prevents that, and I just touched on it a little bit. But there are some other things behind this that people talk about, like, okay, you've been restricting calories for such a long time. And you're leaner. And now your body is primed to store every extra calorie as fat if you increase too quickly. Now, first of all, even if you did go straight into a surplus, and you knew what surplus you were in, you're only going to get as much fat as the tissue that is not gained as muscle that makes sense. Meaning, if you go back into a surplus, and you're training hard to build muscle, like we should always be doing, you're gonna gain some of that as muscle and some of it is fat, just like you would if you were a maintenance for a while and then started that process. There's not a difference. It's not supported by research that you're all of a sudden going to just gain fat for some reason. And that's if you go into a surplus, we've already said that, if you simply return to maintenance, well, you're not even in a surplus. So you should gain zero extra fat, zero extra fat. Remember, you're going from a deficit to a net zero, right? No deficit, no surplus, your maintenance. But a lot of people think, oh, I need to reverse diet. So I don't jump so quickly that I go past that point. Well, the way we're going to do it, we're not going to go past that point, we're gonna go predictably and reliably and precisely to the point we need to be, which is maintenance calories. Okay. And again, Multiple studies have found no difference in body composition changes, based on the rate of post diet calorie increases. All that matters is your surplus or your deficit. That's it. All right, all the stuff about P ratios and going from a really lean state versus not so lean state. No, none of that is supported. Let's simplify it today. We don't need to get complicated or overthink it. Okay, so again, think about it this way with numbers. If you've been dieting on 2000 calories, and your maintenance is 2500. So you're in a 500 calorie deficit would stay in at 2100 for a week, and then 2200 the next week and so forth, make any difference in fat storage compared to going straight to 2500? Note would not. And what it would do negatively is prolong your deficit, which is what we're trying to get out of. And again, people are like, well, that's not what we mean. We mean, if you've been dieting in 2000, your maintenance is 2500. And you shoot up too fast to 2600. Well, I'm not saying that either. I'm saying we are going to go to our maintenance calories. Okay. So the calories are calories. This is one of those cases where calories are calories. There's no metabolic magic happening because you went up slowly, versus jumping straight up and dragging out that process keeps you in the deficit longer than necessary. And what does that do? Well, that risks more muscle loss and hormone disruption and just not feeling great and who wants to be in a diet for longer than you intended? Right now, to be clear, you will definitely I was gonna say likely in my notes, but then I said, you will definitely gain a few pounds of weight when you increase your calories from the diet, back to maintenance, but that's all water and glycogen is all it is. Because think about it. You're you're increasing your intake of food. You're gonna have more Put in your gut, you're going to be drawing in more water and you're gonna have more carbs. Most likely, assuming you're eating a balanced approach, your carbs might go up from say, you know, 100 grams to 300 grams or something like that. And so the first few weeks of maintenance are this, not just psychological, but physiological balancing acts because your body is adjusting to the new intake. But that has nothing to do with extra fat regain, or anything else that people are trying to avoid with reverse dieting. So if you are again, if you're at your true maintenance calories, you are not going to get any runaway fat gain. The real problem is people miscalculate your maintenance intake, or they don't even know it, and then they accidentally overshoot into a surplus. That's a completely separate issue. Right? That's a completely separate issue. And we need to acknowledge that. Hey, this is Philip and I hope you're enjoying this episode of Whitson weights. I started with some weights to help ambitious individuals in their 30s 40s and beyond, who want to build muscle lose fat and finally look like they lift. I noticed that when people transform their physique, they not only look and feel better, but they also experienced incredible changes in their health, confidence and overall quality of life. If you're listening to this podcast, I assume you want the same thing to build your ultimate physique and unlock your full potential. Whether you're just starting out or looking to take your progress to the next level. That's why I created wits and weights physique University, a semi private group coaching experience designed to help you achieve your best physique ever, with a personalized done for you nutrition plan, custom designed courses, new workout programs each month, live coaching calls, and a supportive community, you'll have access to everything you need to succeed. If you're ready to shatter your plateaus and transform your body and life, head over to Whitson weights.com/physique or click the link in the show notes to enroll today. Again, that's Whitson weights.com/physique. I can't wait to welcome you to the community and help you become the strongest leanest and healthiest version of yourself. Now back to the show.

Philip Pape 17:06

So the last thing I want to address before we get into like the how of doing all this is the claim that reverse dieting makes future fat loss phases easier. By increasing your starting metabolic rate. This is the one that has to die. Now I know a lot of people listening, they're like, Well, no, that's not I understand that that's not true. And when I use reverse dieting, that's not the reason I use it. Okay, fine, you're off the hook. But a lot of people still believe this, and they use it in their marketing. And even if this were true, it would be a pretty weak reason to endure the extra time and the extra effort. And more importantly, there's, there's just no mechanistic or clinical evidence for the idea. It's just not true. So it doesn't matter. I guess that's what I'm gonna say. Either way, again, again, even if it were true, I wouldn't use reverse dieting, I would actually take you right to your maintenance calories, and then try to push it up. further than that. Now what is true is people that have been dieting for a long time, potentially are in a suppressed metabolic state. And if they then increase their calories, their body will relax and upregulate back to their normal higher level of maintenance calories, and eventually top out at where they're fully recovered state is, and now they're eating more calories to maintain their weight. But that doesn't mean you can now eat more calories to lose the same amount of weight, your body is going to adapt right back. And the deficit, the calories required to be in a deficit are going to be the same for you. Okay, you're just starting from a less adapted state. Okay, so hope I'm not confusing you here. But the opposite is actually true in the research that people who have a predisposition for weight gain, and yo yo dieting actually tend to have higher baseline metabolic rates on average, pre diet, and it doesn't protect them from regain. Right. And this could simply be that they're heavier, right? They're heavier. And so when you're heavier, you have a higher metabolic rate. But anyway, that was an interesting thing I found I wish I had the study to cite, but it doesn't matter, we're gonna move on because that's really not relevant. And the other thing is that if even if, hypothetically reverse dieting increased your metabolic rate in some in some way that shifted it up, again, those adaptations would just dissipate as soon as you started the next cut. But it doesn't do that. Right. adaptive thermogenesis metabolic adaptation, it happens, can't do anything about it. It starts quickly in a matter of days or weeks at most, but usually days with a deficit. You can't you know, bank extra metabolic output from a previous bulk or maintenance phase, or anything like that. We've seen as we know this, because bodybuilders can't do it. You know, if they did, they would all be cutting on 4000 calories, and it doesn't happen. Alright, so reverse dieting is overhyped. There's a lot of other illusions of reverse dieting that I talked about in the last episode I did on this, which again, I think was called Why reverse dieting doesn't work like you think and what to do instead. So check that out because I think I referenced Eric Trexler ers article as well talking about all the hype that is just what he calls illusions. So, reverse dieting is not necessary to prevent fat regain, it is not going to boost your metabolism. It is also not necessary to recover after a diet. And it is not necessary to get your maintenance from any other point, even if you haven't been dieting just to find your maintenance. So what should you do instead of reverse dieting? That's the question. And the boring but effective answer is increase to your current maintenance calories. So if you've just had a fat loss phase, what are you going to do? If your deficit right now this moment today is 500 calories, you're gonna increase 500 calories tomorrow, and then stay there for about a week and see how your metabolism changes and then follow it upward as it recovers. That's it. And now you avoid the needless additional dieting of reverse dieting. So here's the funny thing, the word reverse dieting. So as the word dieting in it, so remember that, when you reverse dieting, you're still dieting, you're still in a deficit. Now maybe they intended dieting as in your eating, eating food, but I'm gonna go ahead and describe the negative version of that word to the word it. So if you avoid that extra dieting, you'll recover faster, both physiologically and psychologically. Now, there is a term for this called a recovery diet. But it's literally one day, it's one day, it's today I was in fat loss and a 500 calorie deficit. Tomorrow, I'm going back to my maintenance done diets over Boom. Alright, now that can feel scary to bump calories after you've been tracking on your diet, and you have been tracking, right because you're only going to know you're only going to know your maintenance. If you've been tracking your food, your weight over time. And you use an evidence based dynamic way of calculating this over time, you're gonna see how your weight trends, you're gonna see how much food you're eating, and that's going to tell your metabolism. Now, this is why again, I use macro factor, it's the only app on the market food logging app that does this for you. Why wouldn't you just use the best tool for the job, you know, use the hammer for the nail, use the barbell for heavy squats, and use macro factor to get an accurate starting point based on your individual data and your metabolism. If you had been using it during fat loss, you know exactly how your metabolism has gone up or down, probably mostly down during the fat loss phase. And then as soon as you're done with your diet, that literally the next day, you can set it to maintain and jump right to your maintenance calories. And then just continue to, in my opinion, the way I coach clients and in Western ways physique University, we talk about overshooting the maintenance, just a tiny bit, you know, by like 50 calories, because we know your maintenance calories are actually gonna go up. And let's get ahead of it. Right, let's just get ahead of it. Again, all it's going to happen is you're going to gain a few pounds of water weight, but you're not going to gain any fat and you're going to recover really quickly. Which means what does that mean? better sleep, better energy, better lifts, you know, pushing more in the gym, just I mean, the list goes on and on, your hormones get better, and so on. And again, if your weight starts to creep, you know, down after the initial water fluctuations, then that's an indication that you've actually started to fall behind, right, like we're trying to keep up with the increasing metabolism when we're done with the diet. And that's why I like to go over a little more. So you don't accidentally keep dieting. And the funny thing is reverse dieting is like intentionally continuing to date. So you don't need that. And it is a waste of time. And it is counterproductive, it is negative, there is zero reason for it whatsoever, given the claims people make for why you should use it. Alright, so maintenance calories is about getting back to homeostasis, finding the intake that keeps you at this stable, comfortable bodyweight maintaining results, with good energy, good performance, good biofeedback, and it's not fixed. Just remember that it's not fixed, it's going to fluctuate, and hopefully it's going to generally trend upward when you're done with your dieting phase, as you get back to maintenance. So the approach of just a recovery diet going straight back to maintenance in one day. This also contributes to, in my opinion, your relationship with food, be honest, like the whole flexible approach that we take part of the calorie deficit and the fat loss phases, we get it over and done with as quickly as we can, because we don't want to be in that state forever. And so by not reverse dieting, we are getting out of that state quickly. Now you get to, you know, a little bit more calories, more flexibility with your meals and you that you even already had and is not, you know, you're not continuing to restrict in some way where it's not necessary. And you're not even having to overanalyze thing. Like, I think reverse dieting requires too much work too much thinking because you're just, you're saying, well, here's my calories, and then eventually I need to get back up to maintenance, but I'm going to do it in this stair step sort of way. And I'm not quite going to know that I'm at my maintenance until I maybe overshoot a little bit and the weight starts ticking up. It's like, man, it's just too much too reactive to miscalculation, like why do all that just jump to maintenance, and you have to know your maintenance. So that's my opinion on it. Okay. Now, to be fair are, there are a few specific scenarios where slowly increasing calories after a diet can be helpful, or slowly increasing calories because you've never done this before. And you're tracking for the very first time. And, you know, if you come to me and I say, Well, I think you're starting metabolism, maybe in the ballpark of, you know, 2600, what are you eating now? Oh, you're eating 1500? Oh, yeah, let's just jump 900 calories tomorrow. I'm not going to do that as a coach. Right? And I wouldn't expect that, that you to try that yourself either. Because we want to take it slow and steady and get there in a reasonable timeframe. Now, does that defy everything? I just said, No, because this is not for physiological reasons. This is for practical and logistical reasons. And for those of you listening, who said, Well, that's exactly why I tell people to reverse diet because it's practical. Okay, I can give you a point there. However, if you know your maintenance calories, you're still one level beyond reverse dieting in that case, because rather than it being a reverse diet, it's simply a practical jump to get your maintenance as quickly as you can, for that person,

Philip Pape 26:02

meaning, if you know, you need to jump 900 calories, you could do it overnight, you could do it the next day, you really could. But if you tactically, if you find that a struggle, it's okay not to it's okay to jump by 300 calories a day for three days to get there. But we're not gonna waste more time than we need to. The other reason you would reverse diet is if you have no idea what your maintenance intake actually is. So that kind of goes back to the premise of this whole episode. That ignorance of your numbers is probably the one of the main reasons I see most coaching. Most coaches suggest reverse dieting, it makes their job easier, that's for sure. Because they're not telling you to jump to some arbitrary number. And then you gain all this weight, and then you yell at them for not being a good coach. But they're not the best coach, if they don't use the best tools to help you understand what your true maintenance is, and do it precisely in time efficiently. And you don't have to use macro factor for that you can do this in a spreadsheet, like as a coach, if macro factors stopped existing tomorrow, I could do a reasonable facsimile of that for a client, and still use a recovery diet instead of reverse diet, you still can take your weight over time, the calorie intake, you can apply kind of some simple math, some smoothing, this is where my engineering brain and my software brain come in to play. And you can still do a reasonable facsimile of that, alright. But if you don't know your maintenance, and you don't want to go through all that, and you just want to react and you want to guess, go for it, reverse dieting will eventually get you there. But with all the negatives along with the ride that we've talked about today. Now, let's say that you weren't tracking at all that's another reason somebody wouldn't know their maintenance. Let's say you're not even working with a coach and you just like, ate quote, unquote, clean or you did keto or carnivore, or you cut carbs or whatever, however you did your diet, or you just like, arbitrarily watched your calories and then saw how it affected weight. In those cases, it's true that jumping straight to some random maintenance number that you don't even know could lead to overshooting because you're not really even tracking to begin with. So in that case, some conservative increases might help you figure out your maintenance range once your weight stabilizes. So I get it. And that could be a great approach somebody's taking who's eating intuitively, right. But someone who's eating intuitively who's trapped for a long time, will probably have a good idea what it feels like also to get back to maintenance, and know that based on the weight they've been losing, they've been in a certain deficit recently. And they can still make a more educated guess, than necessarily having to reverse diet. Now, the other thing is when reverse dieting can be defined in different ways. For some people, it's like two or 300 extra calories this week, and then next week in the next week. For others, it's much slower, like 50 calories. I mean, either way, it's still reverse dieting, it's like stepping stone to your maintenance. So it's nothing magic. It's like not a magic metabolic restoration protocol. It's just guessing your way there. That's really all it is. The only other situation I can think of is going to be physique competitors, and other extreme dieters, let's say lifestyle dieters. And if you've been in a super aggressive deficit, and you've got extremely lean, you're very adapted both your metabolism and hunger signals have been, you know, whacked out, they're pretty suppressed. And you just literally may not feel comfortable eating a maintenance right away. Like even though you know, you can and you know how to do it, and you've done it before and you're not worried about the number of calories, simply your digestive system and like everything going on with you, it's just off. And to jump that much. Like let's say you're in 1000 calorie deficit, you could jump 1000 calories overnight, may just not be comfortable. And that's another reason to take it slowly. But you still know where you want to be and you want to get there as quickly as possible. So and by that, I mean like take a week, at most, maybe two, but not weeks and weeks and weeks. Okay, that can help with your digestion with your appetite regulation. But the goal again is still to ramp up to your actual recovery. Take your maintenance calories as efficiently as you can tolerate. And other than that it's a temporary psychological tool, it's not actually a metabolic necessity. So for everyone else look, just get macro factor already, you can try it for free with my code, Whitson weights all one word, and stop guessing, I'll put a link in the show notes like I used to do when I mentioned it in the show. And then you'll never ever need to reverse diet ever again, once you've got that approach down, going straight to maintenance calories. So to recap, today's episode, reverse dieting is the epitome of one of those like fitness industry myths that has to die. And it's one of those that really persist even among really great coaches. And a lot of them, I get that they are not necessarily using reverse dieting, the full on way that some people use it. And in some cases, maybe they're not even using reverse dieting, and they're just calling it that and I get it, then we get into semantics and so on which I don't know when this episode is coming out. But Sue bush and I when she was on the show, or maybe I was on her show, I don't remember which one. But we got into a discussion about needing to be careful with our words in this industry. And why podcasting as a medium is a good place to explain all this because then you can define what you mean, which hopefully I've been doing today. And if you did not listen to the episode, of course, you didn't even get to what I'm saying here. And you just give me a bunch of hate comments on YouTube. Because you think reverse dieting is the bee's knees. That just proves my point. So here's the thing you want to trust, the data driven approach that actually measures the things you care about. And one of the things we care about during dieting is knowing your maintenance calories. That's really, really important while we're dieting. So we can be proactive, we can avoid plateaus, and we can recover straight to maintenance. And that's important for your health. That's important for your metabolic health, your performance, your life balance, your psychology, your mental state. That's why this is important. It's not just, it's not just splitting hairs. And if you have the right tools, and then you have the right mindset, then what are you going to do, you're going to maintain that hard earned physique without the smoke and mirrors of reverse dieting. Okay, so if you want to learn more about this, I've got lots of episodes about these various topics, but I do have the other one that I will link in the show notes. And then I'm trying to think if there's anything else I wanted to mention about this other than No, I think that's it. So okay, that's it about reverse dieting and why it's a complete waste of time. The answer is no your maintenance calories, recovery maintenance calories as quickly as possible, you'll feel great. You'll get back to be in maintenance, maintaining your physique or even going into a building phase without all the wasting time. Alright, in our next episode 169 q&a with Jeff Hain menopause weight loss bulking without getting fat cutting on low sleep. I'm teaming up with Jeff Hain of the mind muscle connection podcast for a special co hosted q&a, where we are going to share our thoughts on six different questions three from his community, three for mine on rest periods for muscle growth, managing your diet, unlimited sleep, what to do if you're gaining too much weight in a book, how to transition your training from bulk to a cut, menopause and weight loss resistance for women over 50 and how to prep ahead of time for an inevitable holiday feast Steen. Make sure again to hit follow hit follow hit follow right now in your podcast app so that you are notified when that episode comes out and support the show. And as always, I want you to stay strong. And I'll talk to you next time here on The Whitson weights podcast. Thank you for tuning in to another episode of wit's end weights. If you found value in today's episode, and know someone else who's looking to level up there with our weights. Please take a moment to share this episode with them. And make sure to hit the Follow button in your podcast platform right now to catch the next episode. Until then, stay strong

Philip Pape 4/26/24 Philip Pape 4/26/24

Ep 167: Optimize Your Thyroid for Hormone Health, Metabolism, and Fat Loss with Haley Fountain

Are you struggling with weight due to thyroid issues? Confused about the role of minerals in thyroid function? Do you need a roadmap for exercise and nutrition with a thyroid condition?

Today, Philip (@witsandweights) welcomes Haley Fountain, a women's health coach who balances modern nutrition with ancient wisdom and behavioral science. Haley is certified as an Integrative Nutrition Health Coach and specializes in Hormonal Health. She's also a yoga instructor, model, and actress.

In this episode, you will learn about the world of thyroid health. This complex issue impacts your weight, metabolism, sleep, and mental health. Haley will guide us through managing weight with a thyroid condition, the role of minerals in thyroid function, and the importance of exercise and nutrition. They'll also explore how the mind-body connection and sleep contribute to thyroid health.

Haley is dedicated to empowering women to thrive. She offers personalized coaching, organizes events, and hosts retreats to create a supportive environment for women to connect with their health and well-being. Her approach is to provide accessible and practical information, regardless of where individuals are on their health journey. Whether someone is dealing with thyroid issues or simply seeking to expand their knowledge, Haley's expertise promises to be valuable.

Today, you’ll learn all about:

2:11 The importance of the thyroid and its function
4:26 The conditions associated with the thyroid
6:05 Hormones vs. lifestyle
8:22 The role of the thyroid in metabolism and weight management
12:27 How do you approach meal spacing and diet
18:36 The link between minerals, supplementation, diet, and thyroid health
27:33 How to test for mineral deficiency
33:04 Exercise for thyroid health
35:45 The impact of the third leg of movement
37:29 Specific foods that are helpful for the thyroid
41:22 The value of sleep, naps, and yoga
45:22 What Hely wished Philip had asked
48:19 Where to learn more about Haley
48:47 Outro

Episode resources:

Episode summary:

Thyroid health is a topic that is often shrouded in mystery, yet it is a critical piece of the puzzle when it comes to our overall well-being and hormonal balance. In this episode, women's health coach Haley Fountain provided a comprehensive look at how to master thyroid health for optimal hormonal harmony. The thyroid gland, a small butterfly-shaped organ located in the neck, plays a pivotal role in regulating numerous bodily functions, including energy levels, metabolism, heart rate, and muscle building. However, the signs of thyroid dysfunction can be subtle and are often mistaken for other conditions, such as Premenstrual Syndrome (PMS) or even stress.

One of the first points Haley Fountain touched on was the importance of recognizing symptoms like fatigue, hair loss, and gut problems as potential indicators of thyroid imbalance. She emphasized that these symptoms should not be considered normal and that addressing them is crucial for maintaining health. Haley also discussed how over-exercising could have detrimental effects on hormone levels, particularly thyroid hormones, and consequently on weight loss efforts. This insight is particularly relevant for individuals who are frustrated with their lack of progress despite rigorous exercise routines.

In addition to exercise, the discussion turned towards the significance of diet and lifestyle in managing thyroid-related health challenges. Conditions like hypothyroidism, often underdiagnosed, can have a profound impact on one's life. Haley Fountain highlighted the nuanced interplay between genetics and lifestyle in our hormonal ecosystem, indicating that while genetics do play a role, diet and lifestyle are equally, if not more, significant contributors to thyroid health.

The episode delved into the importance of blood sugar stability, which is intrinsically linked to weight management and thyroid function. Strategies for achieving blood sugar balance were discussed, such as ensuring adequate protein intake, meal spacing, and even the use of glucose monitors for tracking. The conversation tackled intermittent fasting and its effects on women with hormonal imbalances, recommending a tailored approach to eating windows and meal frequency. Additionally, the benefits of movement, such as walking post-meal, were highlighted to aid blood sugar regulation.

Another focal point was the importance of minerals in thyroid health. Haley shared her insights on how superfoods like spirulina and sea vegetables can contribute to our nutritional intake and support thyroid function. She underscored the need for minerals like selenium and zinc, which are vital in converting thyroid hormones from inactive to active forms, and suggested natural sources like Brazil nuts and organ meats to supplement these minerals. The balance between minerals like zinc and copper was also discussed, emphasizing the need for maintaining appropriate levels when supplementing with nutrients.

Throughout the episode, the value of low-impact movement for weight management and hormonal balance was reiterated. Over-exercising can lead to excess production of stress hormones, negatively affecting thyroid health. Instead, activities such as yoga, walking, and resistance training were advocated. Nutritionally, the importance of incorporating specific foods into one's diet, such as sea vegetables and berries, was examined, noting their rich iodine content and other beneficial minerals. The episode concluded by underscoring the critical importance of sleep for overall health and thyroid function, suggesting consistent sleep schedules and addressing the potential impacts of napping.

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Transcript

Haley Fountain 00:00

As I mentioned before, if you are over exercising, that you are pumping out way too much adrenaline and cortisol in your body which is going to negatively impact all of your hormones, specifically your thyroid hormones, and cause all sorts of imbalances so it actually can stunt your weight loss goals.

Philip Pape 00:18

Haley Fountain 02:06

Thank you, Philip.

Philip Pape 02:07

I'm really excited to be here. And today we're talking about thyroid health. So the listeners love to just jump into the topic. But I definitely want to have some context, you know, from your experience in your background as we get into it. So the first question is really what's so important about this endocrine gland and the hormones it's it secretes for health in general women's health, specifically, and what is your background in that area?

Haley Fountain 02:29

Yeah, so for the thyroid, for anyone who doesn't know it's an endocrine gland, as you said, it's a butterfly shaped gland that's actually right here. So we're like, underneath where like, the middle of your throat and your like collarbones are. And it's a very important part of our endocrine system that regulates, you can honestly call it the master regulator, like it regulates everything from your energy to your weight, even like your heart rate, and so many other things in the body. So it's a very, very important part of our entire ecosystem in our bodies. And quite often, a lot of health issues are actually undercover thyroid issues. So you know, just to give you a quick glimpse of issues that could be related to your thyroid, if you have PMS symptoms, if you have low energy or fatigue, especially fatigue in the morning, brittle nails, brittle hair, hair loss, even memory and focus issues, these are actually things that people consider to be quite normal or just it just something they have to deal with. But these could be related to your thyroid gut issues can also be related to thyroid. So those are just a few of the things low libido, low sperm count in men. Really, almost everything can be linked to that diary. But those are just a few of like, the common symptoms that we in sort of modern society have deemed as normal, but are actually things that are linked to our thyroid.

Philip Pape 03:56

Yeah, that's amazing that it has it's tied to so much. And I understand, you know, hormones are complicated. And there's multiple glands that secrete different things that actually impact other hormones like the, I guess the pituitary gland probably, you know, releases the stimulating hormones that we're all familiar with, like T three and T four. And we often talk about thyroid, just to simplify it with our metabolic rate, right as a metabolic regulator to and even protein synthesis. So a lot of my listeners were in the building muscle and your thyroid can affect that, I believe, so. Pretty cool. It's good to know that so what are the conditions associated with the thyroid that we can just list out so people are aware or people that not just like hypothyroidism, but are there other conditions like Hashimotos and such that are linked to it?

Haley Fountain 04:38

Yeah. So again, I think the research is still emerging on these but definitely hypothyroidism which is like low thyroid essentially or hyper hyperthyroid which is high thyroid, which is a lot less common. Hypothyroidism is becoming much more prevalent today. And actually, I think there's the statistics I saw were about there's 50% of the people that have it are walking You're on and don't even know it, which is pretty crazy. Hashimotos Of course, autoimmune disorder, there's actually a lot of like fertility and reproductive issues that are being tied to thyroid issues as well. Those are probably the ones that come to the top of my head. And, you know, I work specifically with women. So a lot of women were linking PCOS, is quite often being misdiagnosed. And we're finding that it's actually hypothyroidism, excuse me, instead of PCOS, which is I find very fascinating, and the research is still emerging there as well. But there's a lot of misdiagnosis and particularly in because women are more affected by thyroid issues than men, statistically speaking. So a lot of female reproductive issues such as PCOS, even women who are having it's not necessarily a diagnosis, but women that are having menopausal issues and like are having a really tough time with menopause they're finding is actually related to thyroid health. So

Philip Pape 06:00

if we want to get into the lifestyle side of managing of thyroid condition in the symptoms, before we do that, one of the big questions a lot of women seem to always have and I do as well, chicken and egg like, which comes first? Is it hormone conditions that we have that are causing all the problems? Or is it a lifestyle that causes the hormone issues that causes the problems? Generally, you know, obviously, just generalizing it? That's

Haley Fountain 06:23

so hard to answer. It's a really good question. It really it is specific on the individual, it really depends. I would say if I if I had to say for the majority of people, I would say it is lifestyle, nutrition or causing the imbalances for the majority, but that's not for everyone. Unfortunately, like if a mother is pregnant and has hypo or hyperthyroidism, any any issues with a thyroid, those things can not necessarily the the thyroid condition can be passed on in itself, but it causes imbalance in the fetus, which then if those aren't addressed, when the child is young, the child will also grow up to have thyroid issues, but it's not like it's something like specifically that is being passed on. It's more like it causes an imbalance which then because of lifestyle, nutrition, the modern American diet and lifestyle, at least that's what the research is showing. So, again, it is specific on the individual there are some people who just genetics or whatever it is, unfortunately have a lower thyroid or higher but generally speaking for most people, it is the even if you are a predisposition to have a you know, low thyroid or high thyroid, you it will be exacerbated through diet and lifestyle. So I guess Yeah, as I'm saying this out loud. I'm like diet, lifestyle and nutrition really, for nearly everyone.

Philip Pape 07:40

Which, which is empowering, right, it's empowering, because it's something we can have control over. And at the same time you leave open the door for not discounting, real issues. And we just we did an episode about gaslighting against women in healthcare recently. And we talked about someone who had hypothyroidism at like the age of eight, and doctors were, you know, basically ignoring it, despite gaining massive weight compared to the average, despite her lifestyle being the same as her sibling. So it's like, you know, I want people to know that the support can be there. And we're going to talk today a little bit about that on the medical side. But for the most part, I want to focus on the lifestyle side, because at least if you could dial that in, you can rule things out and get a clearer picture of what might be going on. Yeah, so speaking of that, the first thing that comes to mind for I'm guessing for most women is like the weight issues or the weight resistance, or it's hard to lose, or et cetera, with a thyroid condition. Let's talk about the role of thyroid metabolism and weight management, and then what we can do about it. Yeah,

Haley Fountain 08:40

for sure. So this is something I have a lot of clients that deal with this. And I really, really empathize with them. And I know it's such a struggle, because not only having like a health condition, but the mental toll of getting some sort of diagnosis or being told you have, you know, low thyroid height, you even you know, if it's weight gain, it's going to be low thyroid, if that coupled with like trying to lose weight and dealing with the body image issues of that is really hard, and it's becoming more and more prevalent. So I really feel for the women that are dealing with this. So yeah, our thyroid is where do I begin? So our thyroid is going to impact like we talked about earlier, every element of our metabolism of our gut health, the way that our body actually absorbs food and converted into energy, right? So a big thing that I find for women, one when they have gained weight, and we have identified it as a thyroid issue, the number one thing you have to focus on his blood sugar balance. And that's, I would say that's number one key because that is how we avoid other issues because a lot of the women I work with a lot of women that have PCOS. And as I mentioned, for a lot of them, there's some sort of lingering thyroid issue that has maybe been identified but not addressed directly and the you know, when we don't get it in We don't keep our blood sugar balanced, we will that can lead to insulin resistance. It causes crazy mood swings and energy issues with our energy, it impacts our ability to fall asleep, and to wake up at normal time. So that's the first thing. So a couple of like to get really granular with a blood sugar balance couple of things that you can do, obviously, making sure you're getting enough protein. Most women are not getting enough protein in their diet. And it depends on how active you are in a lot of things I generally tell most women try to get at least 30 grams per meal 30 Plus, that's a good start, if you don't know a whole lot about nutrition, or I've never really tracked what you eat. And then the second thing is making sure you're eating enough. So a lot of women are under eating. And that's whenever you have when you've gained weight naturally for most people, unless you're like very educated a nutrition and fitness, your natural inclination is to eat less right to cut back on food, that calorie caloric restriction. But the problem with that is that can actually exacerbate it as well and make the issues worse and your body goes into starvation mode. And so we don't want to do that. You want to make sure you're getting enough, you know, macronutrients getting enough protein enough carbohydrates enough, you know, fats and fiber is also really important for balancing the blood sugar. So those are, you know, a couple of things. And another thing I work with my clients on is actually playing with how you space out your meals. So, a couple of things there, a lot of people will like for example, eat dinner and then have a snack like an hour later. I always tell my clients, you know, just eat more at mealtime. If you feel like you're hungry an hour or two after mealtime, you need to eat more when at mealtime. And the reason for that is a couple of things, it helps with a blood sugar spike, because if you're eating too often, then your your body needs to go in a little bit of a dip in the blood sugar a little lower to actually help regulate. So if you're constantly just climbing the blood sugar ladder, that's gonna cause issues as well. So that's one of the biggest thing. So generally speaking, it's different for everyone spacing your meals out three to five hours is what I found is a sweet spot, I usually get my clients to wear glucose monitors to help them kind of see that if that's something they struggle with. So I'm getting really granular there. But that's number one is the the blood sugar balance with the weight management and a thyroid condition.

Philip Pape 12:11

Yeah, let's just I love granular and I think my listeners do too weak. You hit on so many points we love to address and I know protein and calories are like the first thing that working with women, it's like, oh, I can't eat that much, or I can't get that much protein. And it's okay, let's let's work on it. We know that there's an opportunity there. And the fiber everything. I like the meal spacing piece of it, which How do you address when you're asking to eat a lot more calories, and they feel full? And that's part of the reason they want to eat more frequently. You just space it out throughout the day. Like let's let's avoid these long fasting windows. But let's also speak have a long feeding window. Is that the approach you take?

Haley Fountain 12:45

Yeah, I like that you brought that up too. Because that's another thing is, you know, intermittent fasting is very popular. And for good reason. It has been found to help with you know, burning fat. And even a lot of people use it for like workflows and stuff. The problem with it for women that have any and I speak about women because that's who I work with directly, but this can impact everyone. I find that intermittent fasting works really well for men and not so well for women, especially women that have like hormonal issues. A lot of women that have thyroid issues are skipping breakfast, and then that spike in their blood sugar, which is spiking their cortisol and you know, cortisol kills your thyroid and every other hormone in your body, which is cortisol is a stress hormone for anyone listening, but I'm sure people already know that. And so making you eat it actually eating breakfast in the morning and just making that fasting window a little, a little smaller, I still think it's good to space out, you know about try to have at least 12 hours between dinner and breakfast the next day, I think that's you know, at a minimum 12 to 14 hours, you can still get you know, I tell my clients a really good schedule if you work like a normal kind of or a common corporate job schedule is have breakfast at like eight or nine have lunch at 12 have like a second snack but like heavier than a snack more like meal at three ish and then have dinner at seven. And you still have more than 12 hours of a fasting window. So four meals a day essentially, if you're getting you know if you just really can't eat any more at mealtime, and that typically works well. So if three meals a day if you're getting too full, then just space it out to four with at least three hours in between. You gotta be

Philip Pape 14:13

practical about it for sure. Some of us work on it out early in the morning. So then it just you just want to shift it it's all okay so there's also movement that comes to mind with blood sugar. I know I've talked about like walking after you eat and things like that. I'd like you to address that and then the hot button carbs. I don't know fully what your background or stance is on that but I won't reveal mine if you're not aware of it. So go ahead. Yeah,

Haley Fountain 14:32

sure. So movement Yeah, movement and you know, we can dive into exercise a little bit but yeah, either going for a walk after you exercise or actually going for a walk after you eat, that postprandial walk is so important to help lower your blood sugar and also I think we one thing about walking that we forget is not only is it a form of exercise, but it is a mental break. It is a form of stress reduction that we have to we have to do if you think about our ancestors, they walked everywhere. Some of us never actually touched the ground, we never touched the earth like walking is so grounding. It's great for us mentally physically, like every, every element of our body needs walking. So walking is really good with thyroid conditions. I often see again, because many men and women who have low thyroid will want to exercise a lot to over exercise that can actually make your symptoms worse as well. So you want to go for low impact exercise and things like yoga, and I'm a big yoga Pilates, you know, bar person, I really promote that and like a lot of walking and maybe, you know, a couple sessions of aerobic exercise per week, but a lot of the people who have thyroid issues are doing really intense, high intensity workouts like they're going to Orangetheory fitness No, no, like nothing wrong with Orangetheory. It's great, but like, five days a week, that's too much when you have a hormone, any sort of hormonal imbalance, like that's way too much your body needs rest, and you need to keep your nervous system relaxed. So that's another thing. But yeah, definitely the movement after mealtime is really important to help digestion and help balance your blood sugar. And then carbohydrates. Yes, I'm pro carb, I eat a lot of carbs like I am. I am only I'm super lean. And you can't see me right now. But like, I'm super lean, and I eat a lot of carbs. Like whenever people see what I eat, they're like what and you know, it kind of goes with the exercise and the movement. One really good way you can keep your weight and your body composition healthy is to build muscle while your body needs fuel in order to do that. Obviously, you know, protein is like the king when it comes to muscle building. But we need carbohydrates to for energy. So yeah, making sure you're getting an adequate amount of carbs. I do not I highly discourage my clients from doing a low carbohydrate diet. I have a lot of clients that come to me that have done I want to say keto, but it's not even it's like their version of keto. This is really like a super low carb diet. It's not even true keto we're like they're like checking. Right? Yeah, exactly like are they're like checking to see if their body like doing the testing to make sure their body is in ketosis. Like it's not true keto, it's just low carb, like, let's just call it what it is. It's like the Atkins diet or whatever, one of those from the 90s. And number one is not sustainable. So I don't recommend anything that's not sustainable. Because you that puts you on that yo yo train, that's going to impact your blood sugar as well. If you go from no carbs, and eating a ton of carbs, your body's gonna be like what the heck is going on in your blood sugar is gonna shoot the roof, which is going to put you on an energy roller coaster, it's going to actually make your weight fluctuate a lot more. So yeah, definitely pro carbs, going for complex carbs. And again, having them as part of a, a package in a meal. So never eating carbs alone, you always have them with protein fats, and really increasing your fiber content to help with that, to offset those carbohydrates really important, which goes back to the basics of all the things that you know, you were like you and I talk about all the time is

Philip Pape 17:46

beautiful. Yeah, with the carbs. I mean, it's not like we're just eating pizza and doughnuts, right? Like, it's like, people, people think of carbs as processed carbs. And what you're talking about is diversity and what works for you and having it spaced out and combine it with your other macros, keeping things balanced. I mean, it's all super practical. You're like, the female version of me was so much of the stuff. That's cool. We're

Haley Fountain 18:09

gonna keep it practical and approachable. And yeah, like and even I do think there is value in and now we can get into nutrition and a little bit, but there's value in, you know, elimination diets or, you know, cutting things out for a short amount of time to see how your body responds. But you never want to introduce something that's not sustainable, because it's like one step forward and two steps back,

Philip Pape 18:27

for sure. So part of diet is micronutrients, right? Because I know we want to talk about the minerals as well. I was curious about this topic. What's the link between minerals in thyroid health? What are we deficient in? Like, what are the most important ones, you know, selenium, etc. And then, I guess we want to talk about, you know, the role of diet and supplementation and all of that. Yeah, for

Haley Fountain 18:47

sure. I'm glad you asked that. So yeah, for specifically when it comes to the thyroid, so most people these days are mineral deficient and don't even know it, because it's not something that we test for. There's not a lot of great tests out there for it either. Unfortunately, or the ones that are out there are very expensive as well. So a couple of the things that come to mind. So iodine is one that's really important, typically found in like seafood and seaweed and things like that. So like kelp, Nori, anyone that has a thyroid condition, you know, introducing sea vegetables into your diet can be really helpful. You can supplement iodine. But the problem is, a lot of times the supplements have a lot like a really high potency dose, which can be useful in some cases, but I would never recommend, actually, actually, I shouldn't say I'm not a doctor. So anyone listening to this, anything I offer is just, it's just a suggestion. This is not medical advice. So please, you know what I tell my clients that too. I'm like, I'm a general contractor. I'm going to give you guidance, but you should always talk to your doctor before so you want to make that distinction. But yeah, so iodine, a lot of the supplements out there have a very large amount of iodine in them which for some people can be too much. So if you're going to supplement iodine, you want to think about working with a functional medicine practitioner or whomever your healthcare practitioner is, but for most people introducing see vegetable was like nori kelp, you can buy like a shaker type of deal that has, like nori or California sea vegetables in it that you can just sprinkle on top of your food kind of tastes like salt.

Philip Pape 20:09

Oh, nice. Nice. Well, actually, speaking of salt, I mean, there is iodized salt. Does that count? No, let's,

Haley Fountain 20:16

I mean, I guess yeah, technically, but no, I mean, that's for a whole other host of reasons. But that type of the iodized salt is like, stripped of everything, and it's literally just sodium and iodine. Like we don't we don't wanna go down that road. Yeah. So you want to try to get in like the most natural form. And I'm, you know, I'm a holistic health coach. So I always recommend, not against supplements at all, but I always recommend if you can get it from your food first, that's always the best option, right? Like I nothing wrong with supplementing if your levels aren't normal, but if you're just eating a crap diet, and then you're just taking all these supplements, that's not you know, which I know you. I'm sure you're the same way.

Philip Pape 20:49

Mike, before we continue, what about what about Blue? Like blue green algae? What how does that sold as you know what, I'm just spirulina? What about that?

Haley Fountain 20:58

Yeah, I don't think spirulina has iodine in it. But what I do like about spirulina is that it's like 40%, protein by weight or something like that. That's right. Yeah. So it's, it is a superfood, and something you could certainly include in your diet, especially like you add it to smoothies, or I'm big smoothie girl or like protein smoothies. So because it's an easy way to just keep your calories up and get extra protein. So yeah, you can add into your smoothies, but I don't believe spirulina has iodine. I could be wrong, though. I don't believe it has iodine in it.

Philip Pape 21:27

Yeah, it was wondering because I take it too. But the reason I take it as a very weird reason that most people aren't aware of it seems to be a natural anti histamine. So it prevents, like I used to have seasonal allergies every single year. And I started consuming spirulina and I haven't been on any, like Benadryl or anything like that or Claritin at all, because I used to have to take some of that stuff. Anyway, just fun fact. Yeah,

Haley Fountain 21:50

well, actually, because I haven't I used to have horrible allergies, that I haven't had allergies in years. And I take Spirulina everyday too. I wonder. I never I think I mean, yeah. Yeah, I love that. Yeah. So see vegetables. That's what you know, I tell everyone, do you have thyroid issues or even I mean, even if you don't have thyroid issues, the vegetables are really good. They're abundant, they're plentiful. They're really low impact on our environment, if that's something that's important to you, which is should be for everybody. You know, it's really just so abundant. They're cheap. So vitamin D, and iodine really rich on those things. So iodine is number one. Number two, selenium and zinc. These are two things that many people are deficient in and aren't aware of no selenium and zinc are important because they help your body create the enzyme that converts T four, which is the inactive form of your thyroid hormone to T three, which is the active the active form of thyroid hormone. So that is really important. And so if you don't have zinc and selenium, that function will not work properly, which can cause low thyroid so you can supplement zinc and selenium. You can also get them from foods Brazil nuts are really great. Anyone that has thyroid issues I tell them have like a handful of Brazil nuts a day like just you know, they're really they're large they're like three or four. Brazil nuts will do the trick and organ meats so like liver I'm a big I don't know if your liver person Philip, but I'm big about liver. I buy the chicken liver. Yeah, any kind of liver. Yeah, I think beef liver is if you if you were to do like, if you just were to look at the nutrient density of every food available, liver would be at the top of that list. Beef lovers slightly more nutritious, but chicken is not far from there. I like to buy so at my local farmers market, they sell what's called a primal blend. And it is a ground beef that is 75% You know, ground regular, like other parts of the cow and then 25% organ meats. So for people who because I find that organ meats definitely are an acquired taste, like I like I like a good pate. But that's got a lot of like other stuff in it too. So some people will supplement like liver, you can even buy it in capsules now or like put it in capsules yourself. But the primal blend is a really good way to cook with it where you don't really taste it. So Oh, hold on. Let

Philip Pape 24:05

me ask you about. Actually, that's another thing. I do use beef liver pills, mainly for the B 12. You've seen it has a similar. I mean, there's got to be stuff that it's missing or maybe not because it's desiccated form of the original compound, right? Yeah.

Haley Fountain 24:17

So it just depends on how they process it. But yeah, so anyways, zinc and selenium really important. You can supplement those things again, you know, there's so much that goes into supplementation that you really need to work with a like someone who's qualified like a functional medicine doctor, or just really really do your research because there you can with certain things, you can overdo it or you can take it and it doesn't get absorbed because it needs to be taken with something else. So that that can be challenging, but generally speaking you selenium, zinc organ meats, or Brazil Nuts also oysters are really good. I always tell women oysters are known as like an aphrodisiac food. It's because of the Think of selenium actually because they promote oats with not only tyroid health, but like women's fertility as well. So fun fact about that. So yeah, that's that zinc and selenium, magnesium, of course,

Philip Pape 25:09

before we move on to things I'm thinking of here, where does copper fit into all of this? Because I thought there was like zinc and copper play together in a way, where if you have too much of one or the other supplementation, you get comes with both at some ratio. Are you familiar with that?

Haley Fountain 25:25

Yeah. So if you take too much zinc, it can lower your copper, the lower the amount of copper in your body. Now, a lot of people were like copper or like pennies what you know, but you need you do need a small amount of copper in your body. So if you are supplementing zinc, zinc for a long time, you will want to add copper into your diet as well. So that's an example of like, if you take a supplement, you have to be really careful whenever you're taking it an isolated form versus when you take it into what I consider like a more natural package the way that nature intended for it to be. Yeah, exactly. It's more bioavailable, and you're less likely to cause those imbalances alone. So yeah, good, good question. And yeah, you want to be careful, if you do decide to take some people are just very low in zinc. And especially if you know fertility is something important to you, that's something you might be considering supplementing, it's also really helpful for sinus issues. So I will sometimes, you know, if I get a cold, take some zinc, which if you're taking it for two weeks, you're fine. But I'm talking about people that are taking it over the course of like four or six months, that's where it could impact your copper levels and you want to get maybe get something that has both of those things in it or work with a qualified practitioner to address that.

Philip Pape 26:38

Hey, this is Philip. And I hope you're enjoying this guest interview on Whitson weights. If you're finding it valuable, you can get a bonus conversation we recorded if you're on our email list, just go to Whitson weights.com/bonus or click the link in the show notes. Insiders on our email list will get a link to the bonus conversation where my guest will give you the exact steps to take related to one of the topics in today's episode. Again, these conversations are only available, if you're on our free email list. To get the bonus exclusive content with today's guest. Just go to Whitson weights.com/bonus or click the link in the show notes. Now back to the show. And that's a good point that we don't want to be popping pills. And definitely really for anything like we should be testing and looking at the data. And something like zinc and copper. Yeah, remember distinctly it's a very limited time period type thing for a lot of people. Yeah, getting off track just a little bit. How do we test for mineral deficiencies specifically? Is it it's got to be more than bloodwork, right? There's like hair and other tests? Or how do you do it? Yeah, so

Haley Fountain 27:42

there are hair tests. There's a company I really like hold echolife, that does a lot of really good at home testing, if that's what you want to do at home. Otherwise, yeah, you've to work with your doctor. Most like Western, you know, medical doctors, either don't have the capabilities or won't really, in my experience aren't super helpful with those types of testing if they don't necessarily see something. So you will need to see a functional medicine doctor. I know one here in my area that does mineral testing. I personally have never done it because I haven't had any concerns with it. I believe there's a blood test and a hair test that she does. So I called

Philip Pape 28:19

Live the one that mind pump always talks about I don't know, there's

Haley Fountain 28:23

I don't know, that's what I tell my clients who want the Add home test because they're more affordable. And for you knows, and sometimes you have to think about that. Because it's like, if you're like, Okay, well, I'm hearing this, and I do have fatigue, and maybe kind of brittle nails and whatever. But I don't know if I want to go because functional medicine doctors are expensive. And they have oftentimes, like the one I know has like a six month waitlist. So sometimes it's fun to just say fine. It's interesting to just do that on your own at home and see just out of curiosity, but you obviously can't use that too. You can't use that alone to make decisions. Do you want to make sure you work with someone who's qualified to do that? Cool.

Philip Pape 28:58

All right. So forgive all the interruptions, you were going on to magnesium? Yes,

Haley Fountain 29:02

magnesium. So magnesium is so important for so many things in our body. The number one thing that I recommend my clients, it's helpful for thyroid for a number of condition or number of reasons. We want to think about like tissue development, and we want to think about also, when it comes to cortisol and stress. Magnesium is the antidote to that. So when you are stressed your body eats up your magnesium. So most people are chronically deficient in magnesium and aren't aware of it. And so I typically, you know, that's one thing, especially you will know if you're struggling with magnesium if you're struggling to sleep, or if you feel really anxious all the time and like maybe unless you obviously have been diagnosed with anxiety, but even still that could, you know, sometimes be really helped mitigated with a magnesium supplementation. So that's another one that's really important in it What I like about magnesium is, you can't really for most people, unless you take like copious amounts, you can't really overdo it. So for most people, that's something that can typically take daily. A full spectrum magnesium is really helpful if you really get into the magnesium world, there's all different kinds of magnesium different strands of it, if you will, a lot of the ones out there have magnesium oxide, which is not very bioavailable magnesium citrate can be helpful for like bone density and things like that in muscle repair, but it can cause a laxative effect as well. So that's not always fun. If you take a large amount of that glycinate is the one that I typically, you know, I will take that in a full spectrum supplement and also take it by itself, especially if you have PMS symptoms for women, especially whether or not they're related to thyroid issues. magnesium glycinate, if you take like three to 400 milligrams, the days leading up to your period can be really helpful with PMS symptoms. So a lot of times women that have thyroid issues have really painful periods, the magnesium glycinate can be really helpful. What else do I want to say about magnesium?

Philip Pape 31:02

Yeah, yeah, and I understand it's very hard to get from die. Exactly. Yeah, cry, right?

Haley Fountain 31:07

Well, and you can get it from cacao was really high in magnesium. So a, you know, chocolate, but try to get like a high quality, you know, not just like Hershey's,

Philip Pape 31:17

you want to get like Cadbury cream eggs, and

Haley Fountain 31:21

they're not going to be very high and in magnesium, leafy greens, nuts and seeds. But yeah, it is it's very difficult. And especially because the food that we have today is just not as nutrient dense, because it's also your water. That's another thing I want to talk about. So you know, water is. So like, and obviously we want to drink filtered water, we don't want it to have a lot of, you know, gunk in it. But sometimes the water that we're drinking is so filtered that you know, when you think about our ancestors would have drank water from a stream that was running through rocks, rocks, and yeah, and gathering up all this yummy, all these, all these minerals that we just discussed, right? And now we don't have access to that. So yeah, I can go off on a tangent there. But getting if you can get access to like spring water or like read mineralized water from like a local water source, that can be really helpful too. It's

Philip Pape 32:14

a good idea. All right, so you covered a lot of really helpful minerals. So people listening know what to look for. The magnesium. Just one other thing I noticed for some people, my wife included, and helped her with migraines as well, you know, because again, deficiencies can cause all sorts of things you just don't know until you start plugging them, plugging them up. So that's interesting on the anxiety and how cortisol, you know, reduces it even further. So more of a reason to have that. Okay, so let's, let's transition more back into the movement side of things. You probably had enough of the minerals in nutrition that let's talk, why we haven't gotten to nutrition as much but exercise and training. You definitely talked about a lot of different modes of movement for blood sugar, but for thyroid health, specifically, you also said like overdoing it, overtraining could be a negative. Is there anything else that that you didn't already mention that super important for thyroid health? Yeah,

Haley Fountain 33:04

so I would say, kind of go diving a little deeper to what I mentioned earlier, the low impact movement is going to be really helpful. And that can be really hard, especially not even from a weight management perspective. But I've had some clients who like for them if they don't really just like toughed it out and like get a really good sweat, I think it's important to sweat daily. But if they don't like really overexert themselves, they don't feel like they did anything, right. So that can be challenging to like, retrain your body and your mind to understand like what a good workout is, you know, yoga is not only helpful as a good form of movement for building strength and flexibility, but the breath work and the mind body connection, that element of it is such an underrated tool for hormone regulation. And as I mentioned before, if you are over exercising, you are pumping out way too much adrenaline and cortisol in your body, which is going to negatively impact all of your hormones, specifically your thyroid hormones, and cause all sorts of imbalances so it actually can stunt your weight loss goals as well. So I think you know, incorporating more yoga, more walking, I mean, walking is good, good calorie burner. And what I like about walking too, is it something you can do with a friend, you can invite somebody, you can call your grandma like I'll call my grandma and talk to her for like an hour. And whenever I go for a walk or now instead of saying your friend, let's go grab a drink, I say let's go for a walk and you can catch up with somebody. So what I like about that is you're moving you're outside you're getting fresh air, you're getting your vitamin D from the sun, which vitamin D is also very important for thyroid health. And you're also you know, getting that connection with another human or something like that. As I mentioned before, building muscle is really important so you can't build muscle from well you can't build muscle from yoga but like you want to do resistance training as well. So like either Pilates is I'm a huge pilates reformer Pilates this Typically, like luxury style, builds so much strength in the body through like isometric holds. And but also just getting into the gym and lifting weights is also extremely valuable as well. I

Philip Pape 35:12

love it all. And I mean, people who know me know, although I don't do yoga, I do like to recommend people find a form of mindfulness mind body connection, whatever it is. And it could be the breath work, even walking itself, you can do a walking meditation or even lifting weights can be a mindful thing. If you're not like constantly distracted while doing it, you just focus. So all of this is great. What are your thoughts on the third leg of movement, I call it which is not not moving? And what I mean by that is not being sedentary for long stretches and sitting, does that also, does that have an impact that you understand on thyroid health?

Haley Fountain 35:43

Yeah, for sure. Well, it just it impacts the way that your body interacts with, like how you absorb calories, and how you your body processes, and how your body processes and stores fat as well. So yeah, 100% if you can stay active, whether that's like a standing desk, I'm a big fan of standing desks, mine goes up and down like that, when I you know, I spend a lot of time on on Zoom calls during the day. So I am like stretching and doing like yoga poses and like sitting in different stretches while I'm doing those calls and staying really active. So yeah, making sure like I you know, what I tell my clients is like, let's not make exercise a chore, let's make it part of our lifestyle, like make movement, a part of your lifestyle. So yeah, that and that way also to it doesn't, you know, as they say, a body at rest stays at rest and a body in motion stays in motion, it's a lot easier to create these habits whenever you just keep moving all the time, and you stay really active. So yeah, 100% and that's going to impact your metabolism the way that like I said, your body stores fat or doesn't store fat, it's going to impact your your energy levels as well and help you with your blood sugar management. So all those things are really important for your thyroid. Perfect.

Philip Pape 36:54

Yeah, no argument there. People People get out there and move but make it work for you and fit into your life with with what you enjoy, including the walking because, you know, a lot of people will say like, I'm trying to have my step count, my step count. And I used to say, well, the goal isn't up up your step count, the goal is do something enjoy that just happens to you know, increase your step count was kind of a different reframing on it. So I love that. So what about now let's get into nutrition, a little more anything that we hadn't covered to support the thyroid? We did cover a lot already on that. So are there specific foods beyond the ones with those minerals? We talked about? Anything for gut health, things like that we didn't cover? Yeah,

Haley Fountain 37:29

so a couple of things that come to mind. There's certain foods that are helpful for the thyroid. So a few that I've already mentioned sea vegetables, you can incorporate those into your diet, that's really helpful. Brazil nuts are important and strawberries are actually have been found to help the thyroid as well.

Philip Pape 37:46

Why? Why is that? Is there a compound in there? Or is it the mother? It's,

Haley Fountain 37:49

it's iodine and minerals. And there's, there's one enzyme and I can't remember the name of it. But that has been found to positively benefit the thyroid. We'll have to I'll have to double check, and I can send it to you. But that was one. Those are the three things that stuck out to me in my training.

Philip Pape 38:04

Okay, that's awesome. Yes, strawberries are great, because they also have like the most fiber to calories to volume ratio. Like if you kind of take all that together. They're like the perfect food and they super sweet. So it's kind of a cheat food. I don't like that word cheat. But in the sense that, you know, you're almost feel like you're breaking some rule by having this delicious, sweet thing that Nietzsche gave you. That also makes you feel that doesn't have so many calories and has these great minerals and enzymes.

Haley Fountain 38:31

Yeah, no, all berries are great. I mean, yeah. And I think in general with when you have thyroid conditions, you want to think about you know, I mentioned the organ meats, like the liver, meat liver is really helpful as well. You just want to think about a really balanced diet, lots of fruits and vegetables. Like if it wasn't, you know, if your grandma and grandpa didn't eat it, if it wasn't around back then then you probably want to limit or even avoid it for a while. There's it's not really rocket science. I mean, it is if it's not if it doesn't come second nature to you, but it's all the same things that you know, I imagine you talk about here on your podcast a lot. So getting you know enough fiber, cruciferous vegetables can be really helpful for the diet. And I want to address that because if you do cruciferous vegetables, some people say that for people that have direct issues, Oh, you shouldn't have cruciferous vegetables, you would have to have like copious amounts of cruciferous vegetables for it to actually negatively impact your thyroid. And the benefits definitely outweigh the cons. So I would say, you know, one serving one to two servings of cruciferous vegetables a day lightly, slightly steamed and for anyone that doesn't know what that is, those are two family of vegetables. It includes broccoli, arugula, cauliflower, cabbage. Brussel sprouts. I'm probably missing a few. But it's that if you Google cruciferous, that family I know they're all my favorites and they're yummy. They're crunchy. I love cabbage, like red cabbage and all the polyphenols from the color like there's just so many things in there. So yeah, and they're really high in fiber. They will keep your gut health you know, in check and keep things moving because that's a big thing about Hormonal Health is you know your body He filters out all these excess hormones and releases them through your bowels. So if you're not having, you know, kind of pivoting into gut health, if you're not having a really good bowel movement, ideally twice, at least twice a day, but minimum once a day, you're just all those things are being recirculated into your bloodstream. So there's cruciferous vegetables, and that high fiber diet is really important. Some of the highest fiber foods you can eat artichokes, pears, avocados, lentils, and beans, things like that.

Philip Pape 40:27

Awesome. So for everybody listening, this is what we mean by eating for you and your goals and your values and your health. Right? It's not just the macros and it's not just body composition here, but all of this stuff. And you know, talking about this food always makes me hungry at this time. But like my wife makes, she'll just take white cat green cabbage, slice it into really thin discs, and then saute that or like roast it. Yeah, chard like edge to it so good. Because, you know, a lot of people think of cabbages as like, like, I don't know, like a cabbage. Or soggy. Yeah, you can make it dry. Just like Brussels sprouts, you can get nice shaved and roasted Brussels. Okay, this is this is getting hungry. Yeah, no, me too. Why don't we bring this home by time to sleep? Because sleep Oh, boy. Sleep is like, so important in everything. And it's one of the most neglected up across the population. And before we do for the listener, I think we're going to record an extra little bonus episode to answer some q&a, because I know a lot of people have questions. A lot of women have questions about specific scenarios, based on their thyroid levels, and hypothyroidism and all that, we're going to get to that, and that'll be dropped to my email list insiders on that list. So if you want that, go to Whitson weights.com/bonus. And you'll get that with Haley soon. But Haley, let's take it down to sleep, and the value of sleep for everything, especially thyroid health. Yeah, I

Haley Fountain 41:45

mean, I always tell my clients and everyone like in my communities sleep is like if your house if your body if your house was, or I'm sorry, if your your health and your body were a house, then sleep would be the foundation, that foundation, if that foundation is cracked, that foundation is wobbly, if it's not put in well, then nothing else is going to work above that, right. So you're when you sleep, that's when your body's restoring and repairing. So naturally, if you're not getting good quality sleep every night, that's going to impact every element of your health. Now, more specifically, where it can be challenging is if you're not sleeping well, then that means your cortisol levels are going to be spiking at weird times of the day, which as we discussed earlier, is really going to negatively impact your thyroid. So it's so important to get good quality sleep, especially for people that have a known thyroid condition, going to bed and waking up at the same time or roughly the same time every day is going to have a really big impact on your energy levels, your thyroid, all the things that we discussed. So yeah, just it's really important. And then if you you're struggling to sleep, obviously, there's so many things you can do the magnesium supplementation at dinnertime will be really helpful for you. Good

Philip Pape 42:54

point. Yeah, let's so consistent sleep schedule. I love that. And I would extrapolate that to everything we do. It's it's very interesting how the body responds to consistency where it's like another form of stress, right? It knows what's coming in, therefore, it relaxes, if you will, including our even our metabolic rate. I've seen people who eat at different times day to day will burn fewer calories because of the unpredictability to your body. So I love that hack for sleep. What do you think of naps?

Haley Fountain 43:19

So I personally am not a huge fan of naps. I think the research that I've read, oh, let me tell you this, I'm not a fan because it doesn't work for me, doesn't mean doesn't work for other people. I have tried to be a Napper and it doesn't work and makes me more anxious and more tired. So it just doesn't work. For me. What I do love is something called Yoga Nidra which is a form of yoga that is a guided body scan meditation 15 to 20 minutes, so I will do an afternoon yoga nidra like guided with my headphones in and I will lay down on the ground with like something under my knees and a like weighted blanket on me and you don't actually fall asleep but your body goes into like that your brain goes into a theta state that helps me to kind of recharge now the research shows that naps before approximately 2pm can be effective after 2pm It's going to impact your circadian rhythms, which is your body's natural kind of wake and sleep cycles. So it really just depends on the person. I have seen some people who love really standby what they call like the caffeine nap where you because caffeine takes 20 minutes to get to your bloodstream so they'll drink some caffeine like drink a cup of coffee or tea and then take a 20 minute nap and then they'll wake up and be like really rested. I'm so sensitive to caffeine now I don't drink coffee at all I just drink tea and I can only have one cup in the morning so a night because otherwise I don't sleep at night so again i i say that I'm not a fan but it's because it just doesn't work for my body doesn't mean doesn't work for other people. But I have you know I usually cautioned against it unless you can be very disciplined and actually only take a 20 minute nap because they say after 30 minutes it actually can negatively impact you as well. Yeah

Philip Pape 44:52

it's like this fine skill is like okay get to sleep mask and get set the alarm and be just in the right conditions and all those stresses you out just to try to get that nap. I I love the yoga nidra idea, though. So that that's really cool. Maybe Maybe we can share a resource with the listener on that. Because I know you obviously are yoga instructor out. There you are. Yeah. Alright, so I like to ask this question of all guests, Haley. And that is, is there anything you wish I had asked? And what is your answer? Oh,

Haley Fountain 45:15

you know what, actually, I don't necessarily wish you asked this. But something I want to add in about the thyroid, that two things actually that come to mind. One is more of a lifestyle thing. And that is EMF, electromagnetic fields. So AKA, this thing, cellphone, our phones and all anything that has like Wi Fi gives off electromagnetic fields, aka radiation, and they research it's still emerging, but they find that the thyroid is very sensitive, sensitive to EMFs. So I find that interesting, because with the, you know, thyroid conditions have, you know, like quadrupled in the last, you know, 1015 years. Part of that is probably inability to diagnose, you know, are not the right tools to diagnose, but we're seeing thyroid issues becoming more and more prevalent. What are we using more and more of right now. So, you know, I think they're, I do think they're, you know, this is anecdotal, not completely anecdotal, because they have found a link between the two, but they have found that thyroid is very sensitive to it. So if you have a thyroid condition, it may be worth considering, you know, getting time away from tech, getting more time in nature. And maybe if you like, if you're in an apartment, you can't turn if you turn your Wi Fi off your neighbors, you're going to be their Wi Fi is going to be dinging you. So it doesn't really work. But if you're in a house, or if you live somewhere where you can get time away from technology, they even have like blankets and like tools that you can use to like protect your bed for like the areas that you're in from Wi Fi, that might be a good idea. The second thing is to the energetic you know, I'm I take a holistic approach to I look at all approaches where people are thyroid is very much if you think about the endocrine system, you're in the in the chakras, if you're really into yoga, the chakras are really just the endocrine system, right? So your thyroid, that's your throat chakra. And if you think about if there's, you know, I always tell women who have thyroid issues, I'm like, is there something you're not saying to somebody is there something you're not, you're not speaking your truth, there's an there's an energy there. And so, again, this is not scientific, this is maybe a little more, you know, esoteric, or like woowoo. But I do think it's worth, you know, our emotional state impacts our physical body. So it's important to look at all things and if modern science isn't working for you maybe consider, you know, the emotional and energetic elements of that part of your body, as well as the physical and scientific. So just something worth noting if that resonates with anybody. I

Philip Pape 47:32

love that I'm super open minded about all this stuff. And I mean, honestly, science when we say science, and modern science probably represents a sliver of what we could possibly know in the universe right now. And we just haven't, quote unquote, proven this stuff. And I love the idea that even the chakras and Eastern medicine, a lot of that's a representation for things that we're actually discovering, through science eventually. And whether we do or not, I love the idea of just addressing some of the self talk, self sabotage, whatever the things are the emotional things holding you back and with your, your communication. So that's awesome. Thank you. Thank you for sharing that. And with EMS and all that, where can listeners learn more about you and your work? Ely? Yeah, so

Haley Fountain 48:09

my website is my business is called holistic in Houston. So it was kind of like a play on words like Sleepless in Seattle, but holistic. And so my website is holistic and houston.com. And I'm on Instagram at holistic underscore in underscore Houston, so holistic in Houston, but with underscores, that's where I'm most active. I do have a YouTube channel where I upload yoga flows and meditations as well. So it's just holistic and Houston on YouTube. Alright,

Philip Pape 48:32

and you've made to like 80s or 90s references. So you look a lot younger than maybe you are, I don't know, we'll have to talk about that off. Because I'm a child of the 80s. He made these. Sleepless in Seattle is well known to me. Okay, so your website, holistic and houston.com. And we'll put your IG in there as well. It's been a pleasure, Hayley. I loved everything we talked about today. We got a lot into on the thyroid, and lots more. So thanks for coming on.

Haley Fountain 48:54

Thank you.

Philip Pape 48:55

Philip Pape 4/23/24 Philip Pape 4/23/24

Ep 166: The Body Recomposition Blueprint (Recomp to Build Muscle and Lose Fat at the Same Time)

Are you feeling lost in the calorie counting maze for body recomposition? Struggling to juggle muscle gain and fat loss at the same time? Tired of the yo-yo effect after dieting? Philip talks about body recomposition and strategies for muscle gain and fat loss. He emphasizes patience and consistency, starting with maintenance calories for beginners and slower recomp for experienced individuals. Philip also dives into caloric balance, setting and adjusting calorie targets, and optimizing macronutrient ratios for muscle growth and fat loss. He emphasizes the importance of peri-workout nutrition to support muscle growth through strategic protein and carbohydrate consumption.

Are you feeling lost in the calorie counting maze for body recomposition? Struggling to juggle muscle gain and fat loss at the same time? Tired of the yo-yo effect after dieting?

In this episode, Philip (@witsandweights) talks about body recomposition and strategies for muscle gain and fat loss. He emphasizes patience and consistency, starting with maintenance calories for beginners and slower recomp for experienced individuals. Philip also dives into caloric balance, setting and adjusting calorie targets, and optimizing macronutrient ratios for muscle growth and fat loss. He emphasizes the importance of peri-workout nutrition to support muscle growth through strategic protein and carbohydrate consumption.

Philip also stresses that strength training is crucial to body recomposition and long-term fat loss. He shares principles of effective strength training, including progressive overload and proper exercise techniques. He also touches on the hormonal benefits of strength training, like elevated testosterone and growth hormones.

Philip advocates a holistic approach to body recomposition, incorporating nutrition, training, mindset, and lifestyle factors. He encourages celebrating small victories, staying dedicated, and trusting the process towards achieving your desired physique.

Today, you’ll learn all about:

1:59 Wins from the WWPU community
6:48 Common misunderstanding about body recomp
10:57 Underlying body recomp mechanisms
13:47 Three categories of body recomp
19:37 Using nutrition for body recomposition
27:20 Setting your macros
28:47 The significance of effective strength training
31:09 Benefits of proper training and building muscle mass
33:40 Peri-workout nutrition
36:34 Optimizing health and hormone status
39:59 The importance of mindset
44:02 Final thoughts on body recomp
48:27 Outro

Episode resources:

Watch this FREE video on how to setup MacroFactor for body recomp
Try MacroFactor FREE with my code WITSANDWEIGHTS

Related episodes:

Episode summary:

Philip Pape guides us through the intriguing process of body recomposition, a dual-purpose approach that entails building muscle while losing fat. This episode delves into the nuances of this transformational journey.

The podcast begins with an exploration of the science behind body recomposition, addressing the common misconceptions that have long been associated with this concept. Philip emphasizes that achieving muscle growth and fat loss simultaneously is not exclusive to beginners or individuals with higher body fat percentages but is a viable goal for even the trained athlete. The episode stands out for its clear demystification of this process, shedding light on how to strategically balance one's nutritional intake and exercise regimen to optimize results.

As the episode progresses, the discussion pivots to the topic of caloric balance and macro tracking. Philip introduces Macrofactor, an app designed to streamline the often-overwhelming process of calorie and macronutrient tracking. The app's ability to adjust to an individual's personal metrics and goals is highlighted as a game-changer in personal fitness. Listeners are offered a free Macrofactor Mastery video, a tool that promises to simplify the initial setup and goal configuration within the app.

Strength training, as Philip discusses, is not only instrumental in muscle development but also serves as a catalyst for an increased metabolic rate. The podcast underscores the aesthetic benefits of muscle density, where one can achieve a leaner appearance without a significant drop in scale weight. Philip touches upon the importance of pre- and post-workout nutrition, shedding light on the optimal timing and composition of meals that fuel workouts and facilitate recovery.

The final segment of the podcast centers on the psychological aspect of body recomposition. A mindset grounded in patience, consistency, and trust in the long-term process is deemed crucial. Philip illustrates this with a personal narrative about managing expectations during his shoulder rehabilitation, emphasizing the significance of celebrating incremental progress.

Throughout the episode, Philip intertwines personal anecdotes and success stories from the Physique University, each one reinforcing the central theme that consistent, practical actions, aligned with a sustainable and flexible approach, are the cornerstones of a successful body transformation.

In summary, the episode of Wits and Weights not only serves as an instructional blueprint for those seeking to revolutionize their physique but also instills a sense of confidence and reassurance that with the right mindset and tools, body recomposition is an achievable reality. Philip’s expertise and thoughtful guidance make this episode an essential listen for anyone interested in elevating their fitness journey.

emphasizes that achieving muscle growth and fat loss simultaneously is not exclusive to beginners or individuals with higher body fat percentages but is a viable goal for even the trained athlete. The episode stands out for its clear demystification of this process, shedding light on how to strategically balance one's nutritional intake and exercise regimen to optimize results.

As the episode progresses, the discussion pivots to the topic of caloric balance and macro tracking. Philip introduces Macrofactor, an app designed to streamline the often-overwhelming process of calorie and macronutrient tracking. The app's ability to adjust to an individual's personal metrics and goals is highlighted as a game-changer in personal fitness. Listeners are offered a free Macrofactor Mastery video, a tool that promises to simplify the initial setup and goal configuration within the app.

Strength training, as Philip discusses, is not only instrumental in muscle development but also serves as a catalyst for an increased metabolic rate. The podcast underscores the aesthetic benefits of muscle density, where one can achieve a leaner appearance without a significant drop in scale weight. Philip touches upon the importance of pre- and post-workout nutrition, shedding light on the optimal timing and composition of meals that fuel workouts and facilitate recovery.

The final segment of the podcast centers on the psychological aspect of body recomposition. A mindset grounded in patience, consistency, and trust in the long-term process is deemed crucial. Philip illustrates this with a personal narrative about managing expectations during his shoulder rehabilitation, emphasizing the significance of celebrating incremental progress.

Throughout the episode, Philip intertwines personal anecdotes and success stories from the Physique University, each one reinforcing the central theme that consistent, practical actions, aligned with a sustainable and flexible approach, are the cornerstones of a successful body transformation.

In summary, the episode of Wits and Weights not only serves as an instructional blueprint for those seeking to revolutionize their physique but also instills a sense of confidence and reassurance that with the right mindset and tools, body recomposition is an achievable reality. Philip's expertise and thoughtful guidance make this episode an essential listen for anyone interested in elevating their fitness journey.

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Transcript

Philip Pape 00:00

Do you want to build muscle and lose fat at the same time? It may sound too good to be true. But body composition or recomp is a real phenomenon that can completely transform your physique if done in the right way for you, your body and your phase of nutrition and training, and in this episode, we are providing you with the ultimate evidence based blueprint to optimize your nutrition training and health to achieve simultaneous fat loss and muscle growth like never before. Welcome to the wit's end weights podcast. I'm your host, Philip pape, and this twice a week podcast is dedicated to helping you achieve physical self mastery by getting stronger. Optimizing your nutrition and upgrading your body composition will uncover science backed strategies for movement, metabolism, muscle and mindset with a skeptical eye on the fitness industry so you can look and feel your absolute best. Let's dive right in.

Philip Pape 00:55

Whitson weights community Welcome to another solo episode of the weights and weights podcast. In our last episode 165 The Stealth mind trick to turn excuses into action with Paul Salter, you learn how to turn your excuses your self sabotage your procrastination and your perfectionism into massive action by digging beneath the surface to the subconscious mind. Today for episode 166 The body composition blueprint recomp to build muscle and lose fat at the same time, I'm going to break down the science behind body composition, aka body recomp, which is building muscle and losing fat at the same time. Discuss the different ways it can play out based on your starting point and provide concrete strategies for optimizing everything required to get there your nutrition, your training your health, so that you can maximize your results for body recomp. And by the end of this episode, you'll have a clear blueprint to put body composition into action. Now before we get into it, I did want to share some wins from the first few weeks of Whitson weights physique university that we just launched earlier this month. And I want you to spot the pattern here as I share some of these so here we go, quote, I consistently logged my food everyday. This week, I got all my workouts in. I started journaling again, first thing in the morning, every day. I'm seeing good progress and my fat loss phase. I learned cardio is not a bad thing, and can be integrated into my strength training. As long as it doesn't affect my lifts. I settled in with my mindset to be in sync with my goals. I worked on my sleep. I'm starting to track more consistently, even the small bites. I am most proud of the positive self talk. Knowing this is a lifelong journey, not a race. I am most proud of how I was able to put into practice what I've learned about flexible dieting. While traveling for the past two weekends, I was able to enjoy food without feeling restricted and quote, now that is just a sampling of wins from the Whitson weights physique university community over the first few weeks. And I asked you now to tell me could you spot or can you spot what they all have in common? Now I know you can actually answer me here. But rhetorically, the common theme with all of these comments is, they are all simple practical wins focused on consistency on daily habits, on enjoying the process. And the process ultimately produces the progress, right? They're not about quick fixes. They're not about losing 20 pounds in one week, saying no to particular foods or activities, or punishing yourself to get a result. There simply positive affirmations from people who are expanding their comfort zone. They're doing it in the right way. They are starting to shift both their bodies and their minds their perspectives in the pursuit of better health, which just so happens will also get them a better physique and more confidence along the way. Now, all of these students in WWE pu are then able to ask questions, get support, join live calls, watch courses to level up their knowledge and share their success with other curious like minded and very ambitious individuals who are seeking to become their best selves, even in their 30s their 40s their 50s and beyond. And we're just scratching the surface of what students will be achieving in Whitson weights physique University. So if you're curious what it's all about, just head over to Whitson weights.com/physique or click the link in my show notes. That's winsome weights.com/physique. Alright, one more thing related to today's topic on body recomp. So my friend and fellow podcaster Jeff hain, you may already know him he's the host of the mind muscle connection. Definitely follow his show. If you don't already. It's been in my feed for quite a long time. That's Jeff Hain H O Ehn. And he and I recorded a co hosted q&a coming out on May 3 for episode 169 and Jeff is all about body recomp. He has a free work Shut up, like that's his thing these days. So wanted to give him a shout out. Given that that is the topic of today's episode on Whitson weights, and he was on our show as a guest way back on episode 66. And on that show, we talked about sustaining your fat loss results at maintenance, which is somewhat related, not entirely, right, because that's after going through a fat loss phase. But I wanted to mention that, and I'm going to include a link to that episode in the show notes, as well as some other episodes that I referenced today. But I bring this up, because if you want to be 100% sure that you don't miss our upcoming q&a, where we answer questions on menopause, weight loss resistance, bulking without getting fat, whether you should be dieting during periods of low sleep, and more, there are six questions in total from our two communities together, I want you to pause right now, and click the Follow button in your podcast app. Alright, you're gonna get notified of the episode when it comes out. And as a side benefit, the more people that follow the show, you know, who actually click that button, the more people who can find the show, because Apple and Spotify they tend to prioritize followers, right, it used to be called subscribers and other called followers just make it confusing. And they prioritize those over just individual episode downloads. And also, as much as I love ratings and reviews, and I really would love you to take time to go out and review in Apple right now, feel free to pause and go do that. As much as I love that. And it's great for social proof, the best thing for the algorithm is to follow the show. So again, pause the episode right now, go to the Show page in your app and tap the Follow button to support the show and get notified of future episodes. Alright, so let's get into today's topic, the body composition blueprint recomp to build muscle and lose fat at the same time, body composition, right what the cool kids call body recomp. Now, actually, body recomp is a pretty common casual term for this. And body composition tends to be the slightly more formal term. But it's the same thing. And today, I want to lay out this blueprint for how to do it how to successfully build muscle and lose fat at the same time, which is an approach that really can completely transform your physique. In fact, it is the underpinning of everything we do, even when we talk about cuts in bulks, and I'll explain why when we get there. It's often misunderstood. Because you might have heard, it's impossible to gain muscle and lose fat simultaneously. Or it's very hard to do it. Or it can only be done by brand new lifters or people who are very obese. Right? I might have mentioned things like that myself, honestly, I might have said things like, and really it's only good for newer lifters. But we have to think about context. And we have to define body recomp. And what we mean and I think there's a broader term, a broader definition I'm going to use in today's episode, that will give you some clarity and some options as well. And some flexibility which we love here. And people will say well don't you have to focus on one goal at a time either bulking up or cutting fat? Well, it turns out that that's not necessarily the case. Or it's not doesn't have to be as extreme as you think in either direction. And that's what we're gonna talk about today. So with the right strategies with the right mindset with the right knowledge and options, you can definitely achieve body recomp and sculpt that leaner more muscular physique, using a slightly different approach than just going all out on cuts and books. So as always, definitions are important. So let's define exactly what we mean by body re composition. Okay, body re composition, I want to be clear. So body composition just refers to the amount of fat and muscle you have. Body recomposition refers to simultaneously decreasing your body fat percentage while increasing your lean muscle mass, thus improving your overall look your overall leanness, and your overall body composition, re composition. So you're not just focusing on one aspect, like scale weight, or just on body fat. It's really the whole thing doing it at the same time. But the same time is kind of a flexible term we're going to get to in a bit. Now there's plenty of evidence that supports the viability of body recomp. Even in trained individuals, not just newbies, so trained individuals, one that I like is a 2020 article by Chris bear caught at all Chris Bearcat. And you probably know Chris, he's been on a ton of podcasts, I really need to reach out and get him on the show. If you're listening man, or if anybody else is listening, who paid my friend Jeff hay and anybody else my podcasters who know Chris and want to hook us up, feel free to give me an introduction, but either way, I'm gonna reach out. He and his colleagues had an article titled, body composition can trained individuals build muscle and lose fat at the same time. And it concluded that quote, despite the common belief that building muscle and losing fat at the same time is only plausible in novice slash obese individuals. The literature provided supports that trained individuals can also experience body composition, individuals training status, the exercise interventions, and their baseline body composition can influence the magnitude of muscle gain and fat loss risk. assistance training coupled with dietary strategies has been shown to augment this phenomenon and quote, alright, we also see this play out anecdotally all the time when I'm working with coaching clients, because I can't tell you how many clients I've worked with who stayed the same weight on the scale. And sometimes they maybe didn't want to stay the same way early on, at least they wanted that quick win of fat loss. But they ended up staying the same way it might have even looked like a little bit of a plateau, or they even gained a tiny bit of weight. But then their physique completely transformed, their waist size went down, their clothes fit better, they look better in the mirror, they felt stronger, and, and they were standing taller, and all of those things, because they gain muscle and drop body fat simultaneously. And so the scale just doesn't tell the full story when it comes to the composition. And it also doesn't have to necessarily stay at maintenance, like stay the exact same for you to achieve body recovered can happen in different phases, which we'll get to. So why is re composition physiologically possible. And I'd like to dig a little bit into the underlying mechanisms underlying processes. And when we do that, it starts to make a little bit of sense. Because to lose stored body fat, you normally need a calorie deficit, right, you normally need to be dieting, eating less than you burn, you expend more energy than you consume, right? But okay, so that's for fat loss, that's to lose store body fat. But to build muscle mass, you don't necessarily need a net calorie surplus, what you need is sufficient protein and a muscle building training stimulus. Now, protein synthesis, muscle protein synthesis and fat lie policies are separate metabolic processes, they involve different tissues. And as long as you achieve a net deficit to tap into fat stores, while providing enough protein and training to build muscle, re composition can occur. And this is why it can be confusing. So the way I like to put it is, imagine you're eating just enough food to maintain your weight. And at the same time, your training is very effective. And you have plenty of protein. And so your body at this state where you're kind of like just maintaining your weight, you're training hard, you're having that protein, your body feels relaxed or safe enough, like it doesn't feel like it's threatened or in a deficit. Right. So it's safe enough to draw from the protein you're consuming, and to build a little extra muscle. But when it does that, when it prioritizes that because you're telling it, it's important with this training stimulus, it all of a sudden doesn't have that much energy left over for everything else, your body needs to stay at homeostasis. So then your body's all says, oh, I need to release a bit of energy from fat cells to make up the difference. And voila, you've added a bit of tissue over here, you've lost a little bit of fat over there, and you've maintained your weight. But it's as if you're in a slight surplus, it's as if you're in a slight surplus from the muscle building side of the process. I mean, it's pretty cool. It's like your body kind of thinks it has enough resources to build muscle and you're telling it, it's important. So it's going to do that. But then it realized that sacrificed some of the energy coming in over here, so it needs to release some fat. Now there's one other phenomenon, I didn't have it in my notes. But it came to mind when somebody has excessive weight to lose, and you go into a fat loss phase, right, you can still build muscle then as well like in a decently aggressive fat loss phase. Because you have so much fat, so much extra fat stored, that the body is able to pull from that without even feeling like you're in a deficit. And thus, also build muscle with that what appears to be a surplus, it's almost like a trick surplus, because you have all that extra stored fat. Anyway, those are some interesting mechanisms going on. That tell us why it is possible to do this. So what I want to do is talk about how recomp can play out for you based on your starting point. And I want to break it into three categories, losing weight, maintenance, and gaining weight because body recomp can occur in all three. It can also occur over the long term, which is not in the scope of today's show, but I am going to mention it when we talk about gaining weight. But losing weight maintenance and gaining weight are three scenarios where body recomp can occur. So right there, hopefully shattering a belief or myth that you might have that recomp is equivalent to maintenance because it's not equivalent, you can definitely recomp at maintenance, and it's the most common way people do it or try to do it. But you could also recomp losing or gaining. So we're just going to start with losing weight. But then we're gonna talk about maintenance and we're going to talk about gaining weight. So the first category is what is what people think of as like the dream scenario of recomp which is you can lose more body fat than you gain muscle but you're still doing both. In other words, your weight is actually going down and your measurements are going down as well. And you look leaner and more muscular rather than skinny fat because you're building muscle so you're losing fat, building muscle the same time you're actually losing more fat in terms of mass, you know, weight Eat, then you are gaining muscle, which means you also lose weight on the scale, a lot of people like really want this scenario because you kind of get wins on all sides, right, you get lighter on the scale, you get leaner looking, you get more muscle, it's all the best of everything. Now, this tends to be common in individuals who are pretty new to proper training and nutrition, because they have a lot of room for quick improvement on both fronts, right, they have a lot of room for the training side, because they've never given their body this amazing signal from their strength training. At the same time, they are properly dieting at the right rate of loss to induce a little bit of fat loss, but not so much that it threatens their body's resources to kind of clamp down and avoid building more muscle, you know, let alone lose muscle, right? That would have to be more aggressive dieting. So we're going to talk about the rates of loss in a later segment today when we get into nutrition. But that is the first scenario is your net loss in weight, while you're building a little muscle and losing fat. The second scenario is maintenance. Okay, this is gaining muscle, losing some body fat, not much change in scale weight. All right. So this would be like, Okay, so this is an interesting one, because you might maintain your weight, or this could also refer to over the long term you've gained and lost weight, and you've come back to the same scale way as you started. But in the process, you've added muscle and loss fat, we're not really talking about that one, because that's kind of cheating when I say body recon, because then everybody is doing body recover over time. If you're doing this the right way, right, if you're at some point building muscle, and at some point losing fat, and then it all kind of nets out. All right, that's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about just staying at maintenance, more or less maintaining your body weight within, say, plus or minus three pounds, but you're slowly but surely, adding a little muscle losing a little fat, the weight on the scale doesn't change, your waist size continues to go down, you keep getting stronger, and it's all happening without any change on the scale. So again, for brand new lifters, this is totally possible. In fact, it's a very common and recommended approach that I use with clients is just stay at maintenance for a while to beginning. And you can even stay there for longer than a while, if you find it's getting great results. Because now you're not even worried about having to gain or lose weight, which adds an extra stressor and an extra level of planning and tracking. So the only other scenario, where I would say that this happens is once you've gone through some cuts and bulks and you've improved your body comp in the past, and you just want to maintain your physique, you know, staying at maintenance train really hard and not accidentally dieting for the most part, you can still slowly recover over time on top of it. So even advanced or trained individuals might consider this approach to body recomp. The third category is very, very, very slowly gaining weight, so modestly gaining being in a surplus and gaining a little bit more muscle than you would at maintenance, right, because at some point, especially the more advanced you are as a trainee, it's very hard to build extra muscle tissue without getting yourself in a little bit of a surplus. So this is most common and very well trained individuals who want to keep getting leaner, but they don't want to necessarily go through the bulk and cut cycles. And, you know, this is where we might be cocking your eyebrows and thinking, well, that's not really body recomp is it if you're gaining weight, but again, technically, it's not short term body recomp that would happen in maintenance, but it's potentially medium term, or kind of an efficient version of body recomp. Because you're spending some time slowly gaining muscle and then maybe a little bit of time doing a micro cut or a very slow conservative fat loss phase like you can pick one or the other. And it doesn't feel too extreme in either direction. So I would say that this is a bit different from the kind of more optimal or even aggressive muscle building phase. That's then followed by a moderate progressive cut, which I like to live in that state because I feel it's the most time efficient to get from A to B in terms of body fat percentage, and leanness, and muscle and strength and everything is the most efficient, and I enjoy kind of eating a bunch of food for a long time of the year. And then not taking too long to cut that off. Right. But some people might rather enjoy eating a moderate amount of food all throughout the year. And then when you're losing fat, you're still eating a moderate amount of food because it's not much different. So one might appeal to you and there's no wrong answer, there's no right or wrong answer, they're gonna result in slightly different timing, aggressiveness and results. The results gonna be the same at and long term. But you might see different results in the short term. Alright, so if you do things more slowly, but still biased toward one direction, like the gain weight and the lose weight part, this will produce body recomp over time without the larger swings that come from these very focused bulking cut cycles. And that might be an attractive reason to do it for a lot of you. Alright, so first you want to figure out which category you want to go after. Because you might have started listening to this episode thinking okay, he's gonna talk to me about maintenance. How do I do that? Oh, now I realized that there are options I might want to go in one direction or another. If you're a newer trainee, you might want to try a little bit of fat loss while you're recopying. Or if you're more advanced, you might want to try a little bit of the gain side. Then we're going to segue into my favorite topic which is using nutrition to optimize your body composition. In that context, whatever you choose, okay, it's going to depend on the three categories, which category you choose. So first, we need to nail down Calories. Calories are your energy balance that tells you which direction you're gonna go. And they're going to be pegged to your expenditure, your daily expenditure, also called your maintenance calories. And I've talked about this before. But just to reiterate, especially if you're new or not familiar with this topic, the best way to determine your maintenance calories is not an online calculator. And it is not your wearable device, it is tracking your food over about two to three weeks, tracking your weight over two to three weeks and seeing how one affects the other. If you eat 2500 calories every single day and your weight doesn't change one ounce over that two weeks, then you know your expenditure is 2500 calories. Now, the problem with this approach is it requires not only the tracking which tracking is fine, I'm perfectly cool tracking, I think tracking is a wonderful thing. It's the more tedious, laborious calculations based on what you've tracked, that can be tricky for some people, or downright overwhelming, scary or tedious. So this is where a tool or an app that can do this for you is going to be your best friend. From a practical standpoint, the one that I use is called macro factor. My clients use it my students and Whitson weights physique University use it. And it can calculate your expenditure, your true metabolism based on what you're eating and your weight. And then it can make adjustments weekly to your calories into your macros based on your goal. So it does everything for you. And if you want, okay, so here's what I'm gonna throw in as a goodie, for this episode, I made a video in which awaits physique University under a course called macro factor mastery, and it's how to download, do the initial setup and then set up your goal for maintenance and for recomp in macro factor walks you through the whole process with screenshots and everything on how to set up everything. So I actually put that on YouTube, it's unlisted, you can't get to it publicly. But I'm gonna put the link in the show notes for free for you as a podcast listener to go check it out. Okay, totally free, you don't have to opt in, you have to give me an email or anything. It's a YouTube link. It'll just take you right to the video. Check that out in the show notes on our episode resources. And I talked about it. So why am I telling you all this because to figure out what calories you need, you need to know your maintenance calories, the only way to do that is to know your true metabolism that how your body responds to your activities, and your food. And the best way to do that is track your weight and food over time. All right, then you're going to adjust your goal to either gain or lose or maintain. And then if you're gaining or losing, you want to pick a conservative rate, if we're going for body recomp, right, we're not going for cuts and bulks all out we're going for recomp. And then you'll have your surplus or your deficit relative to your maintenance calories. And then you can update that each week as your metabolism adapts. Okay, so now I'm going to give you some actual numbers that makes sense for most people that you can use. So obviously, if you're going to maintain, just eat around your maintenance, and you're good, so if you've burned 2500 calories, eat 2500 calories a day, more or less, and you're good. You know, if the next week your metabolism has gone up a bit, because you've got all these resources, your body feels relaxed, you don't have as much stress, or maybe you've got an extra few 1000 steps a day of walking, whatever causes that increase, you're going to eat 2600 calories, let's say, either way, you're going to eat in a way that maintains your weight. And I would prefer aiming a tiny bit above that, like up to 50 calories over on a daily basis. So you're gonna hit your protein, then you're gonna get in fats, and carbs. And so your calories come up to your maintenance, and you're gonna kind of overshoot that just a tiny bit every day. And I like that approach because it avoids accidentally dieting, and accidentally being under fueled. Because my opinion is if you're going to maintain your weight, you might as well do it in the most fueled, fed, you know, resource, abundant state rather than slightly under fed constantly where you get symptoms of dieting, like hunger. And there's no reason for that. I mean, the only reason you think there's a reason is you're afraid of gaining all this weight. But if you're properly tracking, if you're using an app like macro factor, you're gonna be very precise, you'll know where you need to be. And if your weight does start to drift one way or the other, you can always adjust the other way. And it's a slow process. Right? So yeah, you risk the tiniest, tiniest bit of weight gain doing this, but it's well worth the being in that fed energized state all the time. And that's that maintenance. Okay. Hey, this is Philip and I hope you're enjoying this episode of wits and weights. I started Whitson weights to help people who want to build muscle, lose fat and actually look like they lift. I've noticed that when people improve their strength and physique, they not only look and feel better, they transform other areas of their life, their health, their mental resilience and their confidence in everything they do. And since you're listening to this podcast, I assume you want the same things the same success, whether you recently started lifting, or you've been at this for a while and want to optimize and reach a new level of success. Either way, my one on one coaching focused on engineering your physique and body composition is for you. If you want expert guidance and want to get results faster, easier, and with fewer frustrations along the way to actually look like you lift, go to Whitson weights.com, and click on coaching, or use the link in my show notes to apply today, I'll ask you a few short questions to decide if we're a good fit. If we are, we'll get you started this week. Now, back to the show.

Philip Pape 25:33

Now, if you want to lose weight, I would aim for the low end of the evidence based range to avoid muscle loss, but still make progress. And that is point two 5% of your body weight per week. Alright, so a quarter percent of your body weight per week. So let's say you weigh 200 pounds, that's half a pound a week. And if you do the math, based on 3500 calories per pound, that's a 250 calorie deficit, which is enough to move the needle. But it's not anywhere close to the regime of potentially losing muscle, or getting into those real dieting. Biofeedback, states have lots of hunger and potentially higher stress and lower sleep and so on. Right, it's only 250 calorie deficit, it's really not that much. Alright, and remember, we're trying to possibly add more muscle tissue even while losing weight. So we can't go that aggressive. But we don't want to go so slowly that we're really just at maintenance anyway. Right. So that's where I think the point two 5% body weight a week is reasonable. And then if you want to gain I would also aim for the low end of what we have found is the evidence based range of actually gaining muscle and not just being a maintenance. And that's pretty conservative. It's point 1% of your body weight per week. So let's say you weigh 150 pounds, that's only point one five pounds per week, that's like a 55 calorie surplus. And that's barely above maintenance. As I said earlier, even at maintenance, I aim for up to about 50 calories over. So when you're trying to deliberately build weight over time, you know, 55 calories for 150 pound person, which for a 200 pound person is going to be like, you know, 75 calories is not that big of a difference, it's enough to kind of push the needle and make sure that you're building that muscle, but then it's not so much that you can also potentially lose fat at the same time. Okay. Now, once you've got your calories set, you can then peg your macros accordingly. And you're going to aim for point seven to one gram of protein per pound of your target body weight. Now your target body weight may not be that far from your current body weight. So to simplify, it could just go with the current body weight, and I would be closer to the one gram per pound since we're going for recomp. So to simplify all of what I just said protein, around one gram a pound for what you weigh right now. So if you weigh 180 pounds, aim for 180 grams of protein, right? Because it is body recomp. I want you to bias the protein a little higher than if we were just in one of the more extreme phases for fat, I would get in somewhere around 20 to 30% of your calories for general health for hormone production, all of that. And then the rest goes toward carbs. There's a lot of flexibility of fats and carbs. I've mentioned this in the past on this show. But carbs are really important, especially if you're a main, you know, in either of these phases, because in all three of these potential phases, you're not that far from maintenance, so you should have a reasonable amount of calories to work with. And carbs are always your friend when it comes to training, performance, you know, fueling your workouts, partitioning nutrients toward muscle building instead of fat storage and recovering from your workouts as well. They just helped me feel great, they give you energy. And for many of us practically we love to eat food that contains carbs as well fruit, starches, grains, you know all of that. So there you go. That's the basic nutrition for those three categories of recon. Now, Perry workout nutrition, by Perry, we mean around your workout. So before during after kind of within a couple hour window of that workout. Perry workout nutrition is super important. But before we go there, I want to take a tangent on training on your workouts for a second because this is the only time I'm going to discuss that today. I'm always assuming that if you're listening to this show strength training is important and you understand the value of it. But I do have to reiterate that all of the other stuff we talked about today is kind of irrelevant. If you're not training, right. Most of today's discussion is about nutrition and lifestyle, but it assumes your strength training and doing it effectively to give your body plenty of stimulus for muscle growth that is just default. That's assumed because for body recomp we're trying to build muscle and lose fat at the same time. So the premise is you're doing something to build muscle, right? The doing both at the same time part is what's tricky, and that's why I'm covering most of these other topics today. But good timing on this episode because if you want all the details behind effective training principles, I did recently cover them all in Episode 162, which is titled bodybuilding for everyday lifters who want to build their dream physique. And I'm gonna link that one in the show notes as well. So If you want to get into details on all these principles, check that episode out. It's actually one of my favorites personally that I made for the show. And it's a recent one as well. So I think you'll like that. But in summary, what do we mean by effective training or training hard, I think it means three things. Okay. And I usually state these things in a similar kind of approach. Whenever I talk about this, it's generally the same things. And we're talking principles here not programming. And in all of that, number one, it means training close to failure, most of the time, within one to three reps of failure, depending on the movement. That's the first one. Number two, it means progressing in load reps, set some combination of these things over time, what we call progressive overload. And number three, it's training with sufficient intensity and execution, using movements that build strength and muscle, right. And this is really important the intensity and the execution, because if you're not doing it, right, it's not the other things aren't going to matter. And beyond your initial training phase of like your first few weeks, or maybe even the first few months, if you're on the weaker end, this is going to include free weights, like barbells, like dumbbells, combined with machines and cable machines, things like that as needed, you know, stuff that you would find in a gym. So not only does proper training build muscle mass, of course, which is one very important half of the body recomp equation. It also has three other benefits for body recomp that I want to reiterate today. All right, benefit number one, muscle tissue is metabolically very active, it's way more active than fat tissue, meaning it burns a ton of calories even at rest. And this increased muscle mass thus boosts your basal metabolic rate your metabolism, and so you burn more calories throughout the day. And that can aid in fat loss while you're maintaining or increasing muscle mass. So it's not a huge impact. I've talked about this before, maybe six to nine calories per pound of muscle mass that you add to your body. But even like an extra 50 calories a day, when we're talking recomp can make all the difference. Number two, the second benefit of muscle mass, and building muscle mass, when you're engaging in training, the strength training itself has a massive positive impact on your hormonal response. Because your hormones start to shift to facilitate the muscle growth and the fat metabolism all of it, it increases testosterone, it increases growth hormone. And both of those are vital for muscle synthesis, and for the breakdown of fat cells. So you get this two for one hormonal milieu is the French word they like to use of Perfect Storm toward building muscle and losing fat that gets accelerated just through the act of strength training. And then benefit number three, muscle mass is denser. So you can look lean and toned at a higher body weight, which tends mean even burn more calories and thus fat without needing to lose as much weight. So you can that's like another way to recomp kind of in a backdoor approach. Right? So you could just not have to lose as much weight. And so you can recomp in that way. Now we've established I think, why every single person listening to the show should be resistance training. If your goal is to improve your body composition and get a fantastic physique, period, bar none. If you listen, and you're a runner, and you don't strength train at all. And you reach out to me say I need some help with my nutrition, I'm going to say what's your training look like? And if you tell me, here's when I run, I'm going to say Well, where's the strength training and you say, I don't wanna say alright, come back to me, because you've got to be strength training, if you care about your physique, and your body composition, which all of this contributes as well to your health. This is why I love this so much. And I'm passionate about muscle mass and strength training because it helps everything. It makes everything easier, even yes, you're running. So let's continue and talk briefly about workout nutrition after I went on that long tangent, my recommendation here is that you simply want to book and your training. Alright, a little before a little bit after you've got flexibility in the amount of time you don't have to eat or drink in the middle of your workout unless you're starting it fasted potentially. But for the most part, you want to bookmark it with some easy digesting proteins and carbs. This is going to fuel your workout, it's going to kickstart your recovery after it's gonna help with muscle protein synthesis. So something like you know whey protein, quick carbs, like fruit, I love bananas, you know, rice cakes, I know. I know someone who loves you know, Rice Krispie treats I'm not huge on using ultra processed foods for a lot of this stuff, but hey, it can work and then you know, and that's like your pre workout then your post workout can have a little more variety, maybe even a little bit of fat in there. Only reason we don't want much fat pre workout isn't simply slows your digestion, which means you would just have to eat more protein and carbs or or you have more stomach, you know, digestive issues having more food in your stomach. So yeah, a little bit of fat after in your post workout. Like for me, it's oatmeal peanut butter, love it. And I would aim to split your protein evenly across your meals and get anywhere from like a third to two thirds of your carbs in the peri workout period, depending on how many carbs you're working with. So if you're in fat loss and you have less to work To quit, it may be a smaller percentage because or no, it actually may be a bigger percentage, because you have fewer calories, right, and you're trying to keep the amount of carbs around your workout roughly the same, whether you're in fat loss or not. So when you're in fat loss, you're basically siphoning most of those carbs around your workout, I've seen it to the point where like almost all your carbs around your workout, because the calories are fairly low. But that's also why we don't want the fats to be too high and take away from the carbs, or even the protein to be much higher than it needs to be to give you room for your carbs. So that was just my little thing on Perry workout nutrition, as far as just a general principle, but also in the context of body recomp to make sure everything is fueled properly for maximum results. Now, it's not just about calories and macros, we know there are a lot of other things here, nutritionally and otherwise. On the nutrition side, I think micro nutrition, I think hydration, electrolytes, they all impact our performance and body composition. And here, we're just going to stick to basic principles, focusing on whole nutrient dense foods 80% of the time, you can leave the other 10 to 20% for whatever you want for your indulgences so that you don't over restrict you don't feel deprived, always be drinking plenty of water and liquids, don't fear, you know, sodium, potassium, all of that. This is where I like fruits like bananas for your electrolytes, and especially around your training, because that's when you need it to support the fluid balance. And it helps with muscle contractions and avoiding cramping and things like that as well. So that's all I'm gonna say on micros and hydration, just the basics of mostly Whole Foods, a lot of variety of foods, don't put any foods off limits, and so on. And then beyond nutrition, you know, optimizing your health and hormone status is also important for recomp. Because, you know, recomp is, I don't want to put this like, because we're not going all out on a bulk or a cut. We want to play with some of these variables and make sure they're they're fine tuned a little more because the progress isn't as visible in the short term assay, then with the other approaches where the biofeedback signal tends to be more amplified. So if you know, if your sex hormones are out of whack testosterone, estrogen, progesterone, you're not gonna be able to gain muscle or lose fat effectively. And so biofeedback signals like low libido, for recovery, like stubborn fat retention, which I know that's kind of a subjective one, because we all gain and lose fat in different areas, some of us just happen to, you know, gain it in our stomach where we don't want it or again and I but where we do or don't want it. And I say that do or don't want it because but fat can be helpful to some people, all right, and you can get blood work as well, like a before and after. So here, like your lifestyle practices are all going to be dialed in, if you're going for body recomp. Besides the nutrition and the training, we've got stress management, we've got sufficient sleep, like all of these are going to support your hormones, especially sleep, I mean, I can't overestimate the value of sleep for your hormones. And then one other little one is alcohol. I mean, the less alcohol the better. It's going to be for your hormones as well. Ideally, no alcohol, but again, practicality lifestyle, I get it, you know, do what works for you, and see how you respond. Thyroid, specifically I want to call out the more I learned about the thyroid, the more I think it deserves its own category, because if your thyroid is under functioning, your metabolic rate will be slower. And it's gonna be harder to eat enough food and being where you need to be to change your body composition. And so I still think lifestyle for the most part is going to work for most people and most women, you know, because men are affected by thyroid as well thyroid conditions. But if you want to get your labs done proactively, if you suspect an issue, get your T three and T four checked, you know the ratio, but continue to focus on all these strategies, right calories carbs, not over restricting, getting into your key micros for thyroid health. That would be iodine, selenium, zinc, foods that contain those supplementation as needed, so that your thyroid produces the hormones and keeps your metabolic rate where it needs to be. Alright, so other aspects of biofeedback in general health would be your digestion, your circadian rhythm, right, like having a consistent daily routine and schedule for your sleep, your waking and sleeping cycle, but even your eating cycle, even your walking cycle, believe it or not, like your body starts to get used to these rhythms and tend to go in a more relaxed state when things are consistent, and thus keeping your metabolic rate higher and you can eat more food and recomp more easily. sleep and stress we already mentioned because they can affect your ability to lose fat and gain muscle. So you just got to audit your lifestyle see where you can upgrade your habits outside the gym. Everything works together synergistically. If you are for example, in our program, right, if you're lifting weights, physique university, you have a biofeedback tracker, and we can easily see on a week to week basis, what is going on relative to the other things and if you're struggling or if you hit a plateau or you know something's not going the direction you want. We can take all that data together, we can take your calories and macros your food intake, we can take your scale weight, we take your body measurements, and we can take your biofeedback and see where the patterns are. So and you can do the same thing for yourself. Fine Generally, don't underestimate the importance of mindset. I know, I often put it last on the list. For whatever reason, I think we just do this inherently. And yet mindset could be the first thing on the list for a lot of this. And for a lot of you listening, you know exactly what I mean. Like, you may know all this stuff I'm telling you today, you may know exactly what numbers to use for yourself, you may be doing many of these things. And yet the mindset comes in, in places like getting impatient or not being consistent or not trusting the process. So the antidote to those is be patient consistency, trusting the process, you know, you're training hard, you're eating in a slight deficit, let's say if you're doing the lose weight version of this, and maybe you're not seeing a huge drop in scale weight right away, because you shouldn't, you shouldn't. And yet, in your mind, you might be thinking, Oh, I'm trying to get this body comp, and also the scales not budging as much as I'd like. And it's easy to get discouraged. If you're only focused on the day to day or only on specific metrics, we need to collect all this stuff, but at the same time, not get hung up on any one number. On any short time horizon. Keep your eyes on that bigger picture. But while you're doing that, I do want you to celebrate small victories along the way. We just don't want to overemphasize victories and aren't really victories, like, Oh, my weight dropped a pound yesterday. I don't think that's really a victory. I don't, because I would never want to overreact to weight dropping or gaining in one day ever, I want to look at it over two or three weeks, over, let's say, three weeks, you can say, hey, the combination of things that I'm tracking shows me that I built a little muscle, I lost a little fat, here's why, you know, my waist size went down by half an inch, my biceps went up by half an inch, and my scale weight went down by you know, two pounds over the three week trend. Hey, you know, I'm pretty happy with all of that, that's pretty good. I'm headed in the right direction. That's cool. You know, like, we can definitely celebrate those things. But I would also celebrate the small victories on a daily basis, like the things you are doing, to me, those are the victories worth celebrating, I did this thing that I committed to doing. And because I did that thing, I know it's going to later on produce a result. And I know that it will be worth it. When I unveil that strong, lean, muscular physique that I've built through the process, the process. So go back to the quotes that I said earlier from our community, and their wins. And you saw that all of those wins. Were from this healthy and positive mindset of the process. Like I did this every day, I was consistent. I didn't have to deprive myself, it wasn't I lost X weight on the scale, right? We can still celebrate those results when they come. But if we focus on the day to day in the process, it's you're almost not going to care when the result happens, because it will have been happening the whole time. And you'll have been enjoying the process. So that's kind of the mindset piece of recomp, because it can be harder to see the result happening. Now that's also in some ways you can argue for some people, that's why you like to do more aggressive boxing cuts, because you can see some of the result based numbers changing faster. And for some of us, we want those wins, too. And that's okay, there's no right or wrong, there really isn't it too, because right now I'm rehabbing my shoulder again, occasionally, it gets a little wonky. Since I've had rotator cuff surgery, it happens, I've been assured that this is totally normal. And yet, I'm the type of guy that wants to push I want to grow, I want to keep going I want to improve. And it can be a little bit frustrating when I know I have to come out of my fat loss phase, I have to tone down my intensity tone down my volume workout fewer days a week. But I know that doing all those things will produce a result. So what do I take pleasure, and I take pleasure in the fact that my shoulder has more range of motion each day and is feeling less pain. And I know that that is a result based thing, but it's also process. It's showing me that every day that I put into doing these things, I'm getting what I want out of it. And even though I'm kind of at maintenance, let's call it I am getting a ton of winds every day as a result, that will set me up for going back into a more aggressive phase at some point from a healthier standpoint. So that's my little personal story there. Some final thoughts on body recomp body recomp is absolutely possible. It can be a highly effective approach for a lot of people to completely transform your physique it really can and for and or but for many individuals using more aggressive bulks and cuts will be the most time efficient way to achieve long term body recomp. But many of you might prefer this more casual approach that doesn't get too extreme in either direction. And guess what these choices are part of the flexibility and the sustainability in everything we do and talk about on this show and with our coaching approach and in our community and in which awaits physique University. This is the fun part about it. It's not sexy, it doesn't sell you know, 30 pound fat loss in three weeks, but it sells you a lifetime of joy because you can have such a flexible, individualized for you approach that Just is totally in sync with your life. And I know so many of you want that. And I strive on this show to show you how to do it practically and take actual steps. And it's not just lip service, right? And whichever way you want to go, right losing fat, building muscle, you know, quickly or simultaneously over the long term. Either way, doing all these practices, the right way is how you will achieve that lean, strong, athletic look you want. So the exact way it plays out is going to depend on your starting point. What do you have a lot of fat to lose, you're already lean, you want to focus on muscle gain, you're very well trained or you're, you know, just looking to etch in those final details in your physique and that symmetry, whatever the key principles are still the same train hard with sufficient intensity execution, volume progression, eat enough protein and carbs to support your muscle growth, while still achieving a modest, you know, fat loss either a deficit or in less of a surplus or at maintenance, optimize your Perry workout nutrition, or hydration, focus on nutritious Whole Foods, and pay attention to your health, your hormones, and your biofeedback not just your body composition because it all plays together synergistically. And this is where having an experienced coach or community to guide you through the process can make a huge difference. But regardless, I strive on the show to give you these blueprints to help you get started doing it on your own. You just have to be patient, consistent, keep showing up, keep putting in the work. And then your physique will transform before your eyes when you look back and you'll say Wow, look how far I've come. And that's it. That is what we do for body recomp. I hope this has been not only informative, but maybe a little bit eye opening. Given that there are so many ways there's so much flexibility in achieving recomp besides just maintenance, right and now you're inspired right you've got some ideas, you're ready to put these into action. And as I mentioned before, if you're interested in using macro factor to set up your body recomp phase without worrying about calculating your maintenance calories or your calorie macro targets. I'm giving you all a free video on how to set everything up in the app, screenshots and everything step by step. This video is from the macro factor mastery course in Whitson weights visit university but I'm giving you this video itself not the whole course. I'm giving you this video absolutely free no opt in no email, just click the link in my show notes for the free video on YouTube. It is unlisted, so you're not going to find it on my channel. It's it's exclusive to podcast listeners, you have to use the link in my show notes. You'll find it under episode resources. And go click it to get my free video on setting up macro factor for body recomp. Okay, in our next episode 167 optimizer thyroid. Hey, look at that perfect timing didn't plan it this way. Optimize your thyroid for hormone health metabolism and fat loss with Haley fountain. We're exploring thyroid health, which affects everything from your weight and your metabolism to your sleep and even your mental health. You'll learn how to manage your weight when you have a thyroid condition. The link between minerals and thyroid function and why exercise and nutrition are so important and what you should be doing, as well as how the mind body connection and sleep all play into thyroid health. So make sure to hit follow right now in your podcast app. Just pause before the episode finishes and deletes go hit follow go hit follow, and you'll get notified when that episode comes out. And you'll also be supporting the show. So as always, stay strong. And I'll talk to you next time here on the wits and weights podcast.

Philip Pape 48:35

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